45800 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? matheesha333 Dear Htoo, H> If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in > short? M: I think the D.O. 12 stage list is the shortest version. Or perhaps the 'when this arises, that arises, when this passess away .. ' is a even shorter version. Then there are other sections down other pathways as well. I remember and interesting one in the Mahanidana sutta: "Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on attachment, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. H> And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > origination'. M: Some sections of D.O. are spread/stretched over time and space. Some sections like Sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya nama rupa, phassa paccaya vedana, vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadana happen very quickly in the here and now, and can be observed through a trained mind. Sections of nama rupa paccaya salayathanan, upadana paccaya bhavo, bhavo paccaya jati, I believe are spread out in time much more. So I do believe the moment to moment parts are from the suttas. metta Matheesha 45801 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? lbidd2 Htoo: "Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention?" Hi Htoo, I think this idea originated with Ajahn Buddadasa, http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/documents/the_way_it_is/20moa.html The general idea seems to be that each link is just a moment, not lasting. Larry 45802 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi Jon, Sarah, Nina, Htoo, James, Phil, Mike and others - I am grateful to everybody's attention to the Breathing Treatise posts. Nina, I will respond to your remarks (on the two sections so far) by to morrow. Now let's discuss the material in Section ii a little bit. This section deals with the 18 imperfections that arise "in momentary sequence", not simultaneously in one moment. These obstructions to samadhi are as follows: 2 kinds of mental distractions from the breath (internally and externally); 2 kinds of hope-for and attachment-to in- breath and out-breath; 2 kinds of longing for in-breath and out-breath; 6 combinatorial shakable minds when adverting to sign, to in-breath or to out-breath (3x2 = 6); 2 losses of concentration because the mind is on the past breath or jumping ahead to a future one; 2 losses of concentration due to being lazy (slack) or over-exertion; and 2 losses of concentration due to greed and ill-will. It is clear to me that these 18 distrations occur during the samatha stage of the Anapanasati bhavana. This is the critical stage when the yogi makes an effort to establish sati on the object of the meditation -- the breath that consists of three distinct parts : in-breath, out-breath, and the sign. The three parts must be known individually as well as a group. This is not unlike trying to juggle three objects in the air; the juggler must establish sati in each object (one at a time) and yet, meanwhile, he is also aware of the other two objects in relation to the one in focus -- otherwise, an object may fall down. Of course, there are other causes of distractions (internal or external; craving and clinging; imbalance between effort and concentration; past or future events, ...). I think I see some parallels between Anapanasati and walking meditation. While I am walking with sati established in the front of the body (similar to establishing sati at or near the tip of my nose in Anapanasati), I am also aware of the left and right feet being lifted and placed on the ground (similar to the in-breath and out-breath going through the nostrils are felt while the mindfulness is on the sign). If the mind follows (becomes distracted by) either the left or the right foot, while it is adverting to the front of the body, then I will lose the concentration. If my attention (and the citta) is directed to (i.e. follows) the left foot while the mind is still distracted by the right foot, then the concentration will be lost, etc. I hope you may feel free to provide me with some feedbacks and advices. Thank you much. Respectfully yours, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG members - > > Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from > paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. > > 11. The cognizance that hunts the past, > That loves the future, that is slack, > Over-exerted, or enticed, > Or repelled, is unconcentrated. > These six defects in concentration > Based upon mindfulness of breathing > Are such that when they stain his thought > He knows not higher cognizance. > > 12. (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle > and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (2) When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and > end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted externally, both > his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (3) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, in- > breath both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (4) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (5) Owing to longing for out-breath in him when he is fatigued by [too > long or too short] in-breath, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (6) Owing to longing for in-breath in him when he is fatigued by out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjana) to the sign, his cognizance is still > shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (13) With cognizance running after the past and attacked by distraction > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (14) With cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (15) With cognizance slack and attacked by indolence both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (16) With cognizance over-exerted and attacked by agitation both his > body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (17) With cognizance enticed and attacked by greed both his body and > his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (18) With cognizance repelled and attacked by ill-will both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > > 13. One whose mindfulness of breathing > Is undeveloped, unperfected, > Finds perturbation of his body > Likewise of his cognizance, > He is then excited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > One whose mindfulness of breathing > Has been developed and perfected, > Quits perturbation of his body > And likewise of his cognizance, > He is unexcited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > > 14. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from those > hindrances [mentioned in Section i] develops concentration by > mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds these eighteen > imperfections(upakkilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations > (samodhaana). > > [End of Section ii] > 45803 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Sarah, Nina, Htoo, James, Phil, Mike and others - > > It is clear to me that these 18 distrations occur during the samatha > stage of the Anapanasati bhavana. This is the critical stage when the > yogi makes an effort to establish sati on the object of the meditation -- > the breath that consists of three distinct parts : in-breath, out-breath, and > the sign. Very nice series. Could you explain more about "the sign"? Metta, James 45804 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 11:42pm Subject: Happy Wesak Greetings... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Great Enlightenment of the Buddha: On this full moon night of May, 2533 years ago the Buddha Awakened...!!! May all beings gain advantage & bliss by Celebrating this very Wesak Day! So indeed it happened as later told by the blessed lord Buddha Himself... Source: The Story of The Sakyamuni Gotama Buddha. Well translated by Professor N.A. Jayawickrama. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132935 <...> Caused by Ignorance, Mental Construction emerges. Ceasing of Ignorance therefore ceases Mental Construction. Caused by Mental Construction, Consciousness emerges. Ceasing of Mental Construction therefore ceases Consciousness. Caused by Consciousness, Name-&-Form emerge. Ceasing of Consciousness therefore ceases Name-&-Form. Caused by Name-&-Form, the Six Senses emerge. Ceasing of Name-&-Form therefore ceases the Six Senses. Caused by The six Senses, Contact emerges. Ceasing of The six Senses therefore ceases Contact. Caused by Contact, Feeling emerges. Ceasing of Contact therefore ceases Feeling. Caused by Feeling, Craving emerges. Ceasing of Feeling therefore ceases Craving. Caused by Craving, Clinging emerges. Ceasing of Craving therefore ceases Clinging. Caused by Clinging, Becoming emerges. Ceasing of Clinging therefore ceases Becoming. Caused by Becoming, Birth emerges. Ceasing of Becoming therefore ceases Birth. Caused by Birth, Ageing, Sickness & Death emerge. Ceasing of Birth therefore ceases Ageing, Sickness & Death. Caused by Ageing, Sickness & Death, Misery emerges. Ceasing of Ageing, Sickness & Death therefore ceases all Misery! So seeing: Such is Misery... Such is the cause of Misery... Such is the end of Misery... Such is the way leading to the end of Misery... Such was the mental fermentations... Such is the cause of fermentation... Such is the end of fermentation... Such is the way leading to the end of fermentation.' When my mind saw that, realized that, it was freed of the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, unobstructed by the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I realized that 'Birth is ended, this Holy life is fulfilled, the mission is completed. There is no further state in this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; certainty arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as it happens to one who is mindful, keen, & determined. But the satisfaction that so arose, did not obsess my mind nor remain." At this very moment of attainment of Omniscience, the 10 thousand worlds quaked 12 times & became gloriously adorned. Throughout this galaxy flowering trees bloomed, lotuses blossomed, and wines & trees bore fruit, the dark spaces of the hells and between the worlds became illuminated by a flood of radiance surpassing even that of 7 suns. Fully & perfectly Enlightened - The Buddha - perceiving this immense glory spoke these solemn 2 verses, which never has been omitted by any of countless thousands of prior Buddhas: Through this round of countless existences have I searched yet failed to find the Creator who framed this formation: What Misery! - Endless Birth, Death & Pain ! Now I see that 'the Constructor' of this structure is Craving. Never shall this construction be build again as all the rafters are shattered and the main beam is busted & broken. At the elimination of Craving this mind has reached rest. Then, friends, I myself a subject birth, ageing, sickness, death, pain, sorrow & mental degradation, having fully comprehended the danger in all what is subject to birth, ageing, sickness, death, pain, sorrow & mental degradation, searching the unborn, unageing, immune, deathless, unburning, happy, pleasant & pure supreme security from the oppressing bondage of craving, of becoming, of views, and of ignorance, entered this unbecome, unborn, uncreated, unconstructed, undiverse, unformed, unchangeable, unconditional, unimaginable, undecaying, unageing, unending, undeceiving, universal unity, this supremely safe, immune, death & painless state called Nibbana. This vision of certainty arose in me: "This release is irreversible, this is the last birth, this endless reappearance is finally ended..." Further Information about the most important Buddhist Holy day: Wesak: (*) The Significance of Vesak. Bhikkhu Mahinda (*) Visakha Puja. Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45805 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (407) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 22 meditational objects that can give rise to meditational signs called 'preparatory sign'[parikamma nimitta], 'sign of mental image' [uggaha nimitta], and 'sign of counter image of the mental image [patibhaaga nimitta]. There are 40 meditational objects for tranquility-meditation or samatha- bhaavana. All these 40 mediations or all these 40 kammatthaana-bhaavana can give rise to 'preparatory sign' or parikamma nimitta. And they all can give rise to 'sign of mental image' or uggaha nimitta. But not all 40 kammatthaana-bhaavana or 40 meditations can give rise to 'sign of counter image of the mental image' or patibhaaga nimitta. This nimitta can be acquired by practising 22 meditations only. These 22 meditations have been discussed. These 22 meditations are a) 10 kasina meditation or kasina kammatthaana-bhaavana b) 10 foul meditation or 10 asubha kammatthaana-bhaavana c) 1 32-body-part recollection or kaayagataasati kammatthaana-bhaavana d) 1 breathing meditation or aanaapaanasati kammatthaana-bhaavanaa. All these 22 meditation can give rise to 1st jhaana and their object being patibhaaga nimitta. There are other 4 meditation that can give rise to 1st jhaana. They are 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana-bhaavana or 4 pure-living meditation. They are 1. loving-kindness or mettaa 2. compassion or karunaa 3. appreciative joy or muditaa 4. equanimity or upekkhaa These 4 meditations do not give rise to patibhaaga nimitta or 'sign of counter image of mental image of preparatory object of meditation. When one achieves 1st jhaana for the first time, it is just a flickering of fingers. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45806 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Htoo > > I thought I just did. But let me give you a physical example... Each moment > the Earth's orbit around the Sun is dependent on the Sun. > conform to the forces -- mental or physical -- that are brought to bear. > > TG -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear TG, Thanks for your explanation in respect to physical example. aviija(ignorance) --> sankhara(formations) --> vin nana(consciousness)--> nama-rupa(ment-phys)-->salayatana(6-sense-base)-->phassa(contact) --> vedana(feeling) --> tanha(craving) -->upadana(clinging)--> bhavo(existence) --> jati(birth)--> ---> jara(ageing),marana(death),soka(sorrow), parideva(lamentation), dukkha(pain),domanassa(mental suffering),upayasa(despair)..... This is 3-lives Dependent Origination. I just asked you to explain on 'moment to moment' Dependent Origination'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45807 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,159 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Today I started working it all out.This is in the context of > sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, and thus, feeling and saññaa > are omitted, they are each a separate khandha. > The order is different from what you and I are used to, universals first, > etc. but here some are included in the 'or-what-so-evers', yevaa- pannaka. > So, here the number seventeen is correct. > I post it tomorrow or the day after. > Nina. > op 20-05-2005 14:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > You said 17 associated. I think it is 19 associated. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. I think I missed the point. So (19 - 2 = 17 ) 17 are sankharakkhandha. Now I totally agreed. 1. 1st lobha citta = vinnana-kkhandha 2. vedana (feeling)= vedanak-khandha 3. sanna(perception)=sanna-kkhandha 4. 17 associates = sankhara-kkhandha 5. hadaya-vatthu = rupa-kkhandha rupa-objects rupa-kkhandha With respect, Htoo Naing 45808 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Sukinder, > > Sorry for not replying earlier, I see that you and Htoo are having an > interesting dialogue. I would like to join in here. I am interested in > your idea of intention being problematic. > > I am trying to get a picture of what type of practice you are doing. > You say that it is simply being aware of dhammas as they arise? How > often would you say that this happens? Every few minutes, every few > hours? Do you devote time for this to happen, or do you just let it > happen right through the day? > > metta > > Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Matheesha, In a 'so called' formal meditation session ,say about 20 mintues, there will be many unwholesome consciousness or akusala cittas. How can panna arise in other sessions of formal daily activities? With Metta, Htoo Naing 45809 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:54am Subject: Dhamma Thread (408) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When preparing for 1st jhaana there are always a mixture of akusala and kusala cittas before actual jhaana arises. The practitioner is developing 'higher and higher' and 'refined and refined' mental exertion through mental activities of practising of tranquility-meditation or samatha-kammatthaana-bhaavanaa. Signs arise one after another. There is variability between individuals. Some may take years, some may take months, some for weeks, some for days, some for hours, some for minutes. And there are cases that some develop jhaana almost instantaneously. Actually, this is just a case of arising of rapid successions. But there will not be any bypass tracks. When jhaana arises for the first time, it only takes a single monent. Jhaana vithi vara [absorptive procession-consciousness model] BBBBB.MPUAGJB.BBBBBBBB B = bhavanga-citta or life-continuing-consciousness M = mano-dvara-avajjana-citta or mind-door-adverting-consciousness P = parikamma-mahakusala-citta or preparatory-wholesome-consciousness U = upacaara-mahakusala-citta or proximate-wholesome-consciousness A = anuloma-mahakusala-citta or speedy-wholesome-consciousness negotiating-wholesome-consciousness G = gotrabhu-mahakusala-citta or lineage-changing-consciousness J = 1st jhaana citta or ruupavacara ruupakusala 1st jhaana citta or simply '1st jhaana' As soon as this 1st jhana arise, there has already arisen sankhaara or cetana or 1st jhaana rupa kusala kamma. This has the potential to give rise to 1st jhaana rupavipaka citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45810 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > H> If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination > in > > short? > > M: I think the D.O. 12 stage list is the shortest version. Or > perhaps the 'when this arises, that arises, when this passess > away .. ' is a even shorter version. Then there are other sections > down other pathways as well. I remember and interesting one in the > Mahanidana sutta: > > "Now, craving is dependent on feeling, > seeking is dependent on craving, > acquisition is dependent on seeking, > ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, > desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, > attachment is dependent on desire and passion, > possessiveness is dependent on attachment, > stinginess is dependent on attachment, > defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, > and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various > evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks > and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive > speech, and lies. > > > > H> And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > > origination'. > > M: Some sections of D.O. are spread/stretched over time and space. > Some sections like Sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya nama > rupa, phassa paccaya vedana, vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya > upadana happen very quickly in the here and now, and can be observed > through a trained mind. > > Sections of nama rupa paccaya salayathanan, upadana paccaya bhavo, > bhavo paccaya jati, I believe are spread out in time much more. > > So I do believe the moment to moment parts are from the suttas. > > metta > > Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Thanks for your explanation. I admire mahanidana sutta. But I am still trying to understand each and every part of that sutta because some parts are not clear to me. So far I have not found anyone who will satifactorily answer on the questions on mahanidana sutta. Regarding 'paticcasamuppada', once I heard a person claiming that the D.O is rotating and that D.O is also rotating in arahats with remaining links. And some said there is 'moment to moment' D.O. I do know that some links are quite close and actually they arise simultaneously. Help from anyone? With respect, Htoo Naing 45811 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: ayoniso manasikaaro philofillet Hi Connie I missed this post the first time but came across it as I went back to find something. > Hi, Phil. > sorry i don't remember exactly what you said, but: > << > The Dispeller of Delusion: > 2466. AYONISO MANASIKAARO <373.15> ("unwise bringing to mind") is bringing > to mind of what is not the means. Ph: Thanks for this and what followed -many dispeller references. But alas, I can no longer remember what was being discussed! Anyways, always good to be reminded about ayoniso manasikaaro. > I'd think Howard would enjoy reading that kind of stuff. What kind of > Disney rides do you think he went on? Ph: I think he went on Space Mountain several times! > Jon has never given me the creeps. Ph: C'mon Connie. Everybody gives everybody the creeps at one time or another. It's just nama.... > I could've done without yours and James' bathroom windows, but thanks > anyway. Ph: Just rupa...hardness and temperature and a little bit of motion.... > Not that it's wrong view, I just didn't need to go there. Ph: Everybody needs to go there. Even arahnats pee. But they don't daydream while they do so....I guess. > But > that's samphappalaapa. Ph: Ah yes, samphappalaapa. keropajetyu pipi. Naomi popped by and wrote the last two words. Keropajetyu pipi. I think she knows something I don't know. If somebody tells me it means something in Pali I'm going to freak out. Naomi sometimes gets irritated by hearing all the Pali in the Dhamma talks that I listen to while cooking etc. Panna this panna that. At other times - like the other day when we were napping when she had a kind of stomch infection - she finds it soothing. ryaku! She just wrote that. Says it means "yes." Sorry, we're being a bit silly. OK, have to go cook dinner. Thanks again, Connie. Metta, Phil 45812 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:28am Subject: 7 consciousness and are they routine? htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 12 cittas or 12 of these 30 consciousness are akusala cittas or unwholesome consciousness. Other non-beautiful cittas are 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 rootless consciousness. They are called rootless because they do not have root- dhamma or hetu namely lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, amoha or panna. Even though they are not akusala cittas or unwholesome consciousness they are also called non-beautiful consciousness because they do not carry any hetu or root as in beautiful consciousness like dvihetuka sobhana cittas or double-rooted beautiful consciousness and tihetuka sobhana cittas or triple-rooted beautiful consciousness. Again these 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 rootless consciousness can be divided into three separate groups. They are 7 akusala vipakacittas or 7 resulatant consciousness derived from unwholesome kamma, 8 kusala vipakacittas or 8 resultant consciousness derived from wholesome kamma and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 rootless functional consciousness or 3 rootless inoperational consciousness. Hetus or roots are lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, and amoha or panna or wisdom or non-ignorance. There are altogether 6 hetus or 6 roots. Ahetuka means rootless that is absence of all 6 roots. Vipaka means results. Kiriya means ' just performance but not kammic force is left due to that performance'. Kiriya are actions that have just done and they are functional and they just perform the function. They are inoperational. That is they are actions but these actions do not operate any kamma machine at all. There are 7 ahetuka akusala vipakacittas or 7 rootless resultant consciousness derived from unwholesome kamma. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam cakkhuvinnana citta(eye-consciousness) 2. upekkha sahagatam sotavinnana citta(ear-cons) 3. upekkha sagagatam ghanavinnana citta(nose-cons) 4. upekkha sahagatam jivhavinnana citta(tongue-cons) 5. dukkha sahagatam kayavinnana citta(body-cons) 6. upekkha sahagatam sampaticchana citta(receiving-consciousness) 7. upekkha sahagatam santirana citta(investigating-consciousness) Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Vinnana is made of 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means distinctinct, particular, special. Nana means knowledge. So vinnana are special knowledge. When a citta arise at eye while seeing a colour, that citta particularly knows the colour. No other citta can know the colour. So it is a form of vinnana citta. Sota means 'related to ear', ghana means 'related to nose', jivha means 'related to tongue', kaya means 'related to physical body'. Dukkha means ' feeling of hard to bear' or ' hard to bear'. Sampaticchana is made up of sam which means 'well' and paticchana which means ' receiving'. So sampaticchana citta is well-receiving consciousness that receives the object transferred by the former citta which arose just before its arising. Santirana is made up of san which means ' well ' and tirana which means 'appropriately investigating'. So santirana citta is a consciousness that looks into the object of sampaticchana to work out what it is. These 7 consciousness are consciousness that arise daily in us almost all the time. In a day, there are fewer good things and there are almost always many bad things. Harly anyone can experience kusala- cittas 24 hour round. This will be only possible when puthujana stay in jhaana or kusala absorption for 24 hours, which again is very hard. For non-arahats but who attain earlier enlightenments or lower magga nanas, they will be in akusala-cittas free state only when they are in phala-samapatti or fruition-attainment. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45813 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread (409) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread are discussing different kamma. Currently rupa kusala kamma are being discussed. Among 5 ruupa kusala kamma, only the 1st jhaana ruupakusala kamma are being discussed. Even a single moment of 1st jhana citta has the potential to give rise to 1st jhaana rupavipaka citta as its effect. But for rupa-patisandhi to arise or for to be reborn as rupa-brahmaas one has to die with ruupa jhaana as their last moment thought. To happen this is not that easy. But what is essential is that those who attained 1st jhaana have to practise and learn the 1st jhaana very frequently so that they become proficient in jhaana development. To become proficient, they will have to be able to develop jhaana at their appropriate time or intended time. And they will have to be able to stop jhaana at their will. They will have to be able to prescribe jhaana for an intended period. They will have to be able to exit from jhaana at a defined time. They will have to be able to see each jhaana factor in turn and they will have to be able to learn each jhaana factor and treat them accordingly. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45814 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fiver Generations sarahprocter... Hi Lisa, (Naomi & all), --- Lisa wrote: > Dear Dhammafriends, > > After spending a life time of stress and worry over what should or > should not be done or said, trying to control rather than letting > go... <...> > I will be back with some interesting stories on letting go, crying > babies, stressing Sisters, Daughters, and the Husbands and a boyfriend > who laughed through it all rolling their eyes when ever Moms or > Grandmas ran by chasing kids or kids chasing their Mom's and or > Grandma's. > > I will try and tell the stories with Abhidhamma words too. ... S: Thanks so much for reporting back - what an occasion! many thx also for the super pix. We've moved some to the 'significant others' folder -- hope that's OK. Sean has to keep company with Connie's 'Significant Other'...tik tak tik tak...how does it go, Connie? Love the pic of the five generations -- is it your mother on the left? So youthful and also your grandma looks very sprightly indeed for her age. Looking f/w to the stories with the Abhidhamma words:-) You can always make them up like Naomi if the right ones don't come to mind:);). And Naomi, I hope we will see your pic one day in the signif others or members folder.... Any other member pix?? Metta, Sarah ====== 45815 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: Happy Wesak Greetings... !!! gazita2002 Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, thank you for this post. I have snipped a lot, just to reply. However, I will print it so I can read it at my campfire tomorrow nite and hopefully, contemplate the Buddha's wondrous virtues. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Great Enlightenment of the Buddha: > > On this full moon night of May, 2533 years ago the Buddha Awakened...!!! > May all beings gain advantage & bliss by Celebrating this very Wesak Day! > > So indeed it happened as later told by the blessed lord Buddha Himself... > Source: The Story of The Sakyamuni Gotama Buddha. Well translated by > Professor N.A. Jayawickrama. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi? prod_id=132935 > .....snip..... > > Friendship is the Greatest ! > and the entire Noble Life... > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > > <...> 45816 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Thanks Philip, I will look at it a little later, my wife gets a little upset when a spend to much time on the computer. I usually get to read and reply to two medium size posts before I get into trouble, and I am approaching my limit (I made the mistake of doing some searching first). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 01:35 Subject: [dsg] What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Hi again Charles Oops. I snipped the relevant passage by mistake. Here it is from "Deeds of Merit" by Kh Sujin, available at www.dhammastudy.com Summarizing the ten meritorious actions, they are: giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation of someone elses kusala, which are ways of daana, generosity, abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who deserve it and helping, which are ways of siila, the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and explaining it, and the development of right understanding, which are ways of bhaavanaa, mental development. There is another meritorious action which can go together with all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones views. Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is one way of correction of ones views, but there are many degrees of it <...> 45817 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:32am Subject: Hi Sarah buddhatrue Hi All, I sent the following e-mail to Sarah off-list. I thought I should share it with the group also: Hi Sarah (and Jon), How are you? Hope you are doing well; as for myself, I have a head-cold. Not too bad but it is slowing me down. I didn't try the dates that you have recommended, at least not yet, but I may have found something even better. It is called Chromium Picolinate and it is a mineral supplement which seems to be a miracle cure for me! I have completely lost my symptoms of hypoglycemia while on this supplement- so that is good news! However, it is rather early for my trying of it so I'm not sure if things will continue that way or not. I sure hope so. Look, sorry I have been rather harsh with you and Jon lately. I guess I sometimes get too carried away with trying to explain my views about items. I am not a perfect person and I have my own way of dealing with certain things. But, and I want to make this very clear, no matter how bitchy I get or how much I complain about DSG, I still think it is the best Buddhist group on the Internet- which you both should be proud of. My diplomacy skills suck and my emotions can be tumultuous (which I sometimes think is hormonal/brain chemistry) but I want to thank you both for being patient with me and not kicking me off the list. Tep is right: I would have been kicked off long ago if there was a different management- so I don't want the management to change ;-). Keep up the good work and providing the forum for so much useful dhamma discussion. Metta, James 45818 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:57am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Questions i When we give a gift to someone and there is somanassa (pleasant feeling), is there píti as well? ii What is the function of píti which arises with kusala citta? iii When we are helping someone with pleasant feeling and enthusiasm, is there kusala píti all the time? iv How can we know the difference between kusala píti and akusala píti? v Does píti arise with each kusala citta? vi With how many types of lobha-múla-citta does píti arise? vii Which types of vipåkacitta are accompanied by píti? viii Does píti always arise together with pleasant feeling, no matter of what plane of consciousness the citta is which píti accompanies? ix Píti can be an enlightenment factor. How can we cultivate the enlightenment factor of píti? x Which factors can condition kusala citta with píti and somanassa? xi Can recollections on the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha be helpful even to those who are not ariyans and can therefore not really understand the meaning of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha? In what way can they be helpful? ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 45819 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 21, 2005 5:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah sarahprocter... Hi James, I'm glad to hear you're getting such good relief for your condition. Thank you for your very kind and sincere comments - they mean a lot to me, as does all your support. It's really the greatest pleasure to help provide the forum and have discussions with all our good friends here like yourself. Thank you for being patient with us too. With heartfelt appreciation, James. Metta, Sarah ===== --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > I sent the following e-mail to Sarah off-list. I thought I should > share it with the group also: <..> >Keep up the good work and providing the forum for so much > useful dhamma discussion. 45820 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi, James - It is good to go slow and pay attention to details. > >Tep: > > It is clear to me that these 18 distractions occur during the samatha > > stage of the Anapanasati bhavana. This is the critical stage when the yogi makes an effort to establish sati on the object of the > meditation -- the breath that consists of three distinct parts : in-breath, > out-breath, and the sign. > James: > Very nice series. Could you explain more about "the sign"? > Thank you for the kind words. This series of the Breathing Treatise by the Great Arahant Sariputta is very profound, therefore there will be many things I don't know how to explain. Quite often, the difficulty is directly due to the meaning(s) behind a certain translated word like the "sign". However, the most difficult stuffs are related to the application of the 16-grounds Anapanasati. The sign at this stage (tetrad #1) is just the point of touch : 8. (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjita) to the sign, his cognizance is shakable by in-breath, this is an obstacle to concentration. ["The sign is the place where the in-breaths and out-breaths touch. For in-breaths and out-breaths as they occur strike the nose-tip of one with a long nose and the upper lip of one with a short nose." PsA 323 S] Respectfully, Tep === 45821 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina - Please allow me to provide some information for you to read while waiting for Ajahn Sujin's answer. The two jhanas as mentioned in VM VIII, 227 are the 1st and the 2nd, in which piiti is a factor among other jhanic factors while the yogi's is adverting to the point of touch (contact) conditioned by the breaths. Sati and sampajanna are established without absorption yet. My understanding is that only in the fourth jhana can the yogi experience the deep absorption that you are talking about. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep and Sukin, > Thanks Tep for your post on breathing. > I go very, very slowly through the Thai co, it is very long. > Sukin, I listen every day to MP3 on anapanasati and I have a question. > Perhaps you could ask Kh. Sujin? (snipped) > > My question is: when the jhaanacitta experiences breath as object with > absorption, how can it at the same time experience piiti? > Breathing in long he experiences piiti, etc. But when it is jhaana only > breath can be experienced? > Thank you for the trouble. > Nina. 45822 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) philofillet Hi James Hope you had a good week. Saw in your post to Sarah that you're a bit under the weather. > Phil: So perhaps when we are aware of restlessness or doubt we are a > little closer to an opportunity to understand this moha.. perhaps. > > James: Here I see a little uncertainty about what you need to be aware > of; don't feel bad, I am in the same boat. The defilements are so > tricky and take so many forms that it is difficult to determine the > best way to be aware of them. Ph: I guess this is where patience comes in. After all, at times wanting to know what the defilements are is a defilement in itself. At times - there are limits to what we know for the time being. I can sense that very clearly - and can see it in the way things that I struggled to understand last year are as clear as day now. So seeing that helps me to be patient. On the other hand, I am grateful to get reminders from you and others about the need to not be negligent or lazy. In a post to Nina, you said it was a defilement to say one can't understand nibbanna. I say it is often a defilement to want to understand it now. We're both right - unless you're wrong, that is! (haha) >In this post, I want to quote some from K. Sujin to > raise some points. K. Sujin has said, "For someone who knows what > kusala is, kusala citta has the opportunity to arise more often than > for someone who does not know." http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html > I agree with this, but I am left uncertain as to how someone is to > know "what kusala is". How is this to be done? Surely, memorizing > the terms of the Abhidhamma isn't going to do it. There must be > something more. What do you think K. Sujin means here? Ph: Excellent question, James. Well, as we know, there are ten kusala deeds. They are listed in the book you are quoting from. Now, knowing them by word, as a list is one thing, but knowing what their characteristic is is another. I've been hearing a lot about pariyati (sp) - about what constitutes pariyati, about how just reading or discussing is not enough, there has to be moments of understanding. How deep can it be? As you know, I would say it can't be very deep for me. The post by Sukin that Nina discussed with Lodewijk lays out very nicely how we might move from intellectual understanding to something more direct, gradually. I've been intending to re-read it. There's no magic solution. There's no way to answer this question by resolving to understand. Patiently applying the mind when the opportunity arises. This is why Kh Sujin says that patience is an aspecct of right effort, or was it the other way around. Now, assuming we *do* know what kusala is, why does this mean that there will therefore be more moments for kusala to arise? Because we appreciate it more, we are more liekly to recognize it, we hold it with a moment of mindfulness, and this momentary holding it conditions it to arise again? Something like that? I'm not sure. > This is the question I > raised before and you said that concepts weren't the problem, just > proliferation was the problem. This corresponds to what the Buddha > taught. If you are changing your position, let me know. Ph: I guess concepts are not a problem - we need them to live in the world. The arahant needs them to. But the arahant doesn't proliferate on them. We do. Also, the arahant is able to understand the realities behind the concepts. We can't, or can only very rarely. So the arahant lives with concepts far more skillfully than we do. So we learn to see through the concepts more and more often. The elementary school next door is preapring for a festival or show of some kind. The kids are out practicing an obnoxiously loud dance every morning when I try to study Dhamma on the balcony. Since I happen to be reading a sutta on the the elements, about the ear and hearing and sounds, it is easy, intellectually, to not proliferate and get upset by the racket. There is vipaka. There is unplesant feeling arising from the contact. I understand it happens. Encouraging. At times like this, and most of the time, I find no need to think about what is Abhdhamma and what is Sutta and all those stories. The point is detachment. This is dealing with concepts more skillfully. Seeing through the obnoxious song and principal's loudspeaker haranguing to sound and hearing and ear and feeling. Even intellectually in a shallow way it is liberating. >Really, I am > trying to figure out what K. Sujin really teaches and what people seem > to think she teaches. Ph: You won't appreciate what she teaches unless you appreciate Abhidhamma, which you don't, so why bother? Though I do appreciate your quoting her here. I think it is a generous and friendly gesture on your part - typical of this New Version James that is making people feel warm all over from Hong Kong to Timbuktoo! > If she wrote more, rather than just spoke, > people could be clearer on her positions. After all, this is not a > world of careful listeners. That's for sure. And actually, if one listens too carefully one will find inconsistencies now and then. Of course! I guess only sotapannas don't make logical mistakes now and then re Dhamma. I think of her as one of my Dhamma friends - a particularly astute one. I notice that she *never* hesitates to reflect before answering a question. So that means either she has perfect understanding (is a sotapanna) or is a worlding and sometimes might make mistakes. Either one is fine with me. Either one is helping me toward detachment. It's silly to speculate on others' enlightenment, of course. > > Phil: Don't you do this sort of thing as well? doesn't everyone? > > James: Yeah, I suffer from mental proliferation as well, of course. I > just found yours to be very dynamic and reminiscent of the > stream-of-consciousness writers of the beat generation, like Alan > Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac. My mental proliferations are not quite so > dynamic. Ph: You're talking about the way I use the language, not the actual proliferation, of course. We can't get down on the screen what really goes on. So fast. There are very interesting little examples of the way the brain gets programmed. It has as much to do with psychology as Dhamma, maybe. For example, quite often during the day, my mind flashes on a baseball player slamming a pitch deep into the power alley between left and center, the ball rolling right to the fence, the bases clearing, the fans and the announcer going crazy with excitement. Why? The baseball I loved as a child had very strong conditioning power and it keeps popping up. Thankfully I stopped using pornography some years ago and don't often let my mind wander into that territory, so the fleshy images that used to compete with Hikedki Matsui (my favourite player) ripping a hanging curve into deep left have subsided. Conditions are so, so interesting. I really recomment Nina's book "Conditions", available on line. Whether you're dubious about Abdhidhamma or not, I don't know why you don't give it a try. Well, that was a little proliferation for you, my friend. > Phil: I may meditate again some day, if conditions bring it around. > > James: Well, this is what K. Sujin had to say about meditation, "Thus, > when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform > deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the > cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. > Some people can have steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of > access-concentration [6. This is the development of tranquil > meditation, samatha, with recollection of generosity (caagaanusati) as > meditation subject [7." Ph: Of course. Nobody has ever denied that some people can have access-concentration and jhanas. That would be silly to deny that. It's the Buddha's teaching. And I have never heard Kh Sujin come out against seeking jhanas. What she does say, rightly I think, is that as soon as people hear about satipatthana, they want to practice it, they want to get it. There is no patience. There is only lobha then, there's isn't understanding, that sort of thing. >So, according to K. Sujin, meditation is the > steadfastness of kusala. I would agree with that. What's wrong with > practicing that? Ph: See above. People are in too much of a hurry. Samvega is one thing, but there is greed for spiritual accomplishment. Spiritual materialism, as the article you once said. I don't think you suffer from this, but I know I do and if I meditated now it would be silly. But who knows - maybe someday. > > Phil: I personally feel that people cannot live in the > sensation drenched modern world and claim to "set aside coventousness > and grief for the world." But if that comes to be, semehow, I may > meditate again. > > James: This is a momentary setting aside of covetousness and grief for > the world, it doesn't have to be ongoing. Ph: But it has to be real. For me it wouldn't be. It is not just a symbolic gesture, lighting a candle or ringing a bell, surely. There has be to something real there. I have a feeling it is not as readily accesible as people think. But that is just a hunch. I don't really know what I'm talking about, remember. > James: It is good that you haven't closed your mind to the possibility > of meditation practice again. Phil, there are all sorts of meditation > teachers who are teaching the wrong methods. They are teaching what > people want to hear: a way to feel good fast. Even at my Buddhist > temple, where I helped to lead meditation retreats, there was a > special guest monk from Thailand who was supposed to be an excellent > meditation teacher because he was very `famous'. Some temple > disciples came to meet this monk and he led us all in a Chakra > Meditation! I was very appalled. Then he actually started walking > around us, sitting on the floor, and waving his hands around our > bodies to `give us energy and take away pain'. I just couldn't > believe it! I refused to participate in any meditation retreats that > he led and I wasn't quiet as to why. I told everyone who would listen > that he was not teaching proper meditation as taught by the Buddha. > The vice-abbot, a very nice and wise monk, said to me jokingly, > "What's the matter? Didn't you get the energy? He's like a battery; > he will give you energy!" LOL! Ph: Yes, that's the sort of thing I am wary of. Thanks for telling that story. >> James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional use > of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of extending > mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa > to others; Ph: Note the "when" someone is full of metta. She doesn't say we should sit down and generate it out of thin air. It arises due to conditions. > Now, if the Brahma-Viharas are good enough for K. Sujin, why > aren't they good enough for you? Ph: The reason I am picky about the way people use metta is because I value it so. The brahma-viharas are the divine abodes, I think we are moved closer to them as defilements are eradicated, there are few obstacles to their arising as defilements wear away. I beleive that metta et all will arise more through me. I aspire to it, patiently. I'm deeply intersted in Brahma-Viharas, and I believe they can have great beneficial power in the world. That's why I question how on earth people can sit down and tap into metta as though it were a bottle of milk from the fridge! Another long one. Sorry about that. Feel free to pick a few passages that are of particular interest to you. And sorry in advance for any typos. I won't be proofreading. Metta, Phil 45823 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: Hi Sarah buddhistmedi... Hi James - There you go -- that's what I call "good diplomacy" and it is also very Buddhist. Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > I sent the following e-mail to Sarah off-list. I thought I should > share it with the group also: > > Hi Sarah (and Jon), > (snipped) > > Look, sorry I have been rather harsh with you and Jon lately. I guess > I sometimes get too carried away with trying to explain my views about items. I am not a perfect person and I have my own way of dealing with certain things. But, and I want to make this very clear, no > matter how bitchy I get or how much I complain about DSG, I still > think it is the best Buddhist group on the Internet- which you both > should be proud of. My diplomacy skills suck and my emotions can be tumultuous (which I sometimes think is hormonal/brain chemistry) but I want to thank you both for being patient with me and not kicking me > off the list. Tep is right: I would have been kicked off long ago if > there was a different management- so I don't want the management to > change ;-). Keep up the good work and providing the forum for so much useful dhamma discussion. > > Metta, > James 45824 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread (410) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the practitioner has achieved 1st jhaana, this jhaana has to be practised to become proficient. There are 5 different exercises that can help to develop proficiencies in 1st jhaana. They are called vasii. There are 5 different exercises to deal with jhaana matters. These 5 different exercises or 5 vasii are 1. aavijjana vasii or 'contemplating exercise' 2. samapajjana vasii or 'attaining exercise or reaching exercise' 3. adhitthaana vasii or 'prescribing exercise' 4. votthaana vasii or 'emerging exercise' 5. paccavakkhana vasii or 'scrutinizing exercise' As soon as one attains 1st jhaana he has achieved a password to jhaana world. But he may forget the password. So as soon as he achieves 1st jhana he will have to re-enter jhaana for several times so that he can remember how to enter 1st jhaana. This does not lead to proficient level. For jhaana proficiency, he will have to develop the skills by practising the mentioned exercises. Once he enters the 1st jhana, he will be there in jhaana for indefinite period. This may be just a few minutes or for a few hours. But as soon as emerge from the jhaana, then he will have to contemplate on his jhaana and he will have to be able to direct his thought or his mind to 1st jhaana. With repeated exercises, this will be a part of proficiency. Next exercise is that he will have to be able to attain 1st jhaana whenever he wants to stay in jhaana. Initially there is a long delay between his wish and actual arising of 1st jhaana. This gap will be narrower and narrower with his diligent exercise on 1st jhaana. When he becomes proficient in samapajjana vasii or proficient in 'attaining jhaana', he will be able to attain 1st jhaana at his will. Next exercise is to prescribe a period that he will be staying in 1st jhaana. Initially there always are difficulties for different reasons. But with diligent practise and exercise, he will be able to lay out a pre-determined period for his 1st jhaana as unshakable state of mind. If he wants to stay in 1st jhaana for an hour, he will be unshakably in 1st jhaana for an hour. Next exercise is to determine when to exit from 1st jhaana or when to emerge from the 1st jhaana. Because of this specific determination, he will soon be able to arise from 1st jhaana at the determined time. Next exercise is much much more important and it is to scrutinize the jhaana factors or leading mental factors of jhaana. Jhaana factors are examined one after another. They are checked whether they are good or bad. They are scrutinized whether they are still in need to maintain jhaana or whether they should be discarded to ascend further up to higher and refined jhaana states. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45825 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 7:26am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (410) / You Have been Warned! :-) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Sarah, Sukinder, KenH, Nina and DSG friends - I can't help thinking about what Sarah and other non-meditators might repond to the following clauses and sentences of yours, Htoo. -- exercises that can help to develop proficiencies in 1st jhaana -- as soon as he achieves 1st jhana he will have to re-enter jhaana for several times -- he will have to develop the skills by practising the mentioned exercises -- Once he enters the 1st jhana, he will be there in jhaana for indefinite period. -- to attain 1st jhaana whenever he wants to stay in jhaana -- Jhaana factors are examined one after another. They are checked whether they are good or bad. They are scrutinized whether they are still in need to maintain jhaana or whether they should be discarded to ascend further up to higher and refined jhaana states. Dear Htoo, don't you see "lobha" and a "self" who is directing the jhana activiites? Isn't all this going against Sarah's and Sukinder's and KenH's and Jon's and Nina's cautions? Read below! ---------------------------- (#45384, Sarah to Hasituppada) >Hasituppada: >If Bhavana is done under the guidance of a good teacher he will guide you along. Eventually you will understand the Panchakkhandha. It is a path traced by the Buddha to start from what you know now, to discover what is not yet known. .... S: This is how I was taught in the beginning, under what you would describe as very good teachers. However, I realised it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath, eyes closed, slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments. Then it dawned on me that the teaching is about dhammas, about anatta and that these dhammas couldn't be controlled in anyway. Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. ------------------------ Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > When the practitioner has achieved 1st jhaana, this jhaana has to be > practised to become proficient. There are 5 different exercises that > can help to develop proficiencies in 1st jhaana. They are called > vasii. > 45826 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for this post. You wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Questions i When we give a gift to someone and there is somanassa (pleasant feeling), is there píti as well? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer i) Yes, there is. When there is not a pleasant feeling then piiti does not arise. When we are giving there may or may not be piiti at every giving. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ii What is the function of píti which arises with kusala citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer ii) To help with cheering up so that less and less energy will take to do kusala in the presence of piiti. [Reminder; Connie, you may remember. Nina will be happy.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- iii When we are helping someone with pleasant feeling and enthusiasm, is there kusala píti all the time? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer iii) Not at all time when we are helping others. Because when helping there might arise expectation, which again is mingled with attachment. Attachment is lobha and it is akusala. So it is akusala piiti instead of kusala piiti. Saddha or confidence, sati or remembrance of Dhamma or mindfulness to dhamma, and panna or wisdom are all indicators that in the presence of these 3 mental factors, piiti is kusala piiti. At least saddha or confidence and sati or mindfulness have to be present so that piiti has to become kusala piiti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- iv How can we know the difference between kusala píti and akusala píti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer iv) Have answered above. Association with saddha, sati indicate that piiti is kusala piiti. Again one has to be able to recognise sati and saddha. Saddha makes clarity. When there is no saddha then there will be clouding of dhamma-environment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- v Does píti arise with each kusala citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer v) No. Not every kusala citta is associated with piiti. Examples; 1.upekkha saha gatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta indifferently-feeling wisdom-loaded unprompted consciousness 2.upekkha saha gatam nana sampayutta sasankharika citta i w prompted consciousness 3.upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta asankharika citta -vanished unprompted consciousness 4.upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta sasankharika citta i w -van prompted consciousness There are many other examples such as 4th jhaana cittas and arupa jhaana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- vi With how many types of lobha-múla-citta does píti arise? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer vi) 4 lobha mula cittas. 2 with ditthi and 2 without ditthi. These 2 are prompted and unprompted pair. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- vii Which types of vipåkacitta are accompanied by píti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer vii) 1. somanassa santirana citta or happy-investigating consciousness 2. sahetuka vipaaka cittas that is rooted resultant consciousness a) 4 mahavipaaka cittas b) 2 of rupavika cittas (4th and 5th jhaana rupavipaka cittas) c) 4 arupavipaka cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- viii Does píti always arise together with pleasant feeling, no matter of what plane of consciousness the citta is which píti accompanies? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer viii) No. There are 11 cittas of 121 total cittas and they are not accompanied by piiti but they are accompanied by pleasant feeling. They are 11 4th jhaana cittas. That is 1. rupavacara rupakusala 4th jhaana citta 2. rupavacara rupavipaka 4th jhaana citta 3. rupavacara rupakiriya 4th jhaana citta 4. 8 4th jhaana lokuttara cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ix Píti can be an enlightenment factor. How can we cultivate the enlightenment factor of píti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer ix) By approaching to magga citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- x Which factors can condition kusala citta with píti and somanassa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; Answer x) The object can condition kusala citta with piiti and somanassa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- xi Can recollections on the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha be helpful even to those who are not ariyans and can therefore not really understand the meaning of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha? In what way can they be helpful? ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer xi) Can they be helpful? Yes, they can be helpful. By the way of stopping unarisen akusala cittas to arise while kusala cittas are taking the idea on the any meaning of The Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) finished!] Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. Nina, could you correct me where I am wrong. With respect, Htoo Naing > ====== 45827 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 7:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread (411) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the proficiency in 1st jhaana is attained through 5 exercises, the practitioner will see that the 1st jhaana is close to 'the enemies' of 1st jhaana. What are the enemies of 1st jhaana? 1. sensuous thoughts or kamacchanda nivarana 2. aversive thoughts or byaapaada nivarana 3. sloth-torpored thoughts or thina-middha nivarana 4. wandering-worrying thoughts or uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana 5. suspicious thoughts or vicikicchaa nivarana Why is it close to enemies? Because vittakka and vicara may apply to these thoughts. So vitakka and vicaara have to be dispassionated and they have to be disregarded. When there are piiti or 'suffused joy', sukha or tranquility, and ekaggataa or one-pointedness are working well and there is no hindrances, this is forerunning state of 2nd jhaana. One the mind is absorbed into that state then it is 2nd rupa jhaana. For first time, 2nd jhaana citta arises only once and it passes away and followed by life continuing consciousness. When this 2nd jhaana citta arises there also arises cetana cetasika along with that citta and that cetasika becomes 2nd rupakusala kamma. It has the potential to give rise to 2nd rupavipaka citta as its effect. Not all 26 meditations in 1st jhaana can give rise to 2nd jhaana. All foul meditations or all 10 asubha kammatthaana cannot (CANNOT) give rise to 2nd jhaana. This happens because asubha kammatthaanas always take thinking on foulness of beings. As 2nd jhaana does not invlove vitakka-vicaara, asubha kammatthaana do not give rise to 2nd jhaana. Nor does kaayagataasati kammatthaana. The meditations that can give rise to 2nd jhaana are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaanas 2. 1 aanaapaanasati kammatthaana or breathing meditation 3. 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana or 4 pure-living meditations --- 15 kammatthaanas for 2nd jhaana Upekkha is normally not for induction of 2nd jhaana even though equanimity or uppekkha does invlove in 2nd jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45828 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (410) / You Have been Warned! :-) htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply to Dhamma Thread 410. Who have been warned? Pardon? I just reinclude the dialogue between Hasituppada and Sarah, which is you put in your reply to Dhamma Thread 410. Tep quoted: (#45384, Sarah to Hasituppada) >Hasituppada: >If Bhavana is done under the guidance of a good teacher he will guide you along. Eventually you will understand the Panchakkhandha. It is a path traced by the Buddha to start from what you know now, to discover what is not yet known. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To be honest, to be honest I do not do not find any fault in Hasituppada message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: This is how I was taught in the beginning, under what you would describe as very good teachers. However, I realised it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath, eyes closed, slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just remember a writing by a westerner. It is 'Three cheers of tanha' ? by Morrison someone. He wrote that The Buddha had craving to attain nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Then it dawned on me that the teaching is about dhammas, about anatta and that these dhammas couldn't be controlled in anyway. Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. ------------------------ Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: With Metta, Htoo Naing 45829 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo Naing, You asked the following questions. "... explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then ... 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention?" In short, DO lists the processes involved in beginning to suffer (birth, sickness, old age, and death). It is based on the cause and effect principle. It uses that principle to explain the relationships between the steps (like links in a chain) from the root cause to suffering. Moment to moment DO is an interpretation of DO (one way of explaining it / applying it). And I do not remember seeing it in the tipitaka. Every concept is someone's invention, so yes. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 20 May, 2005 15:26 Subject: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? Thanks in advance, Htoo Naing 45830 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Philip C: My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat others. ------------------------------------------ Ph: I think you mentioned before that your background is in Mahayana - I remember you knew the Parmis as 6 rather than 10. So it could be a difference there. But unless I'm mistaken (someone correct me if I am, please) in Theravada, ariyan refers to someone who has reached at least the first stage of enlightenment, the sotappana. So we have a different interpretation on your part. Fair enough. ............................................. My background is in both Theravada (Tai forest monk tradition; soon I will start to study with monks of the "city monk" tradition) and Mahayana (Tibetan, Chan, and Zen). I think our real differences lies in our view of "Dharma steam enterers". To me, this is a very basic stage (nothing special). Now I could be wrong about all the different titles, my early teachers focused me on learning and understanding morality (including to animals), so every respected title dealt with that as its condition. It was too easy to become a walking analytical text book, and calling it wisdom. The information of which I could not apply (may be I did not really want to). I also lacked concentration (the thing monks master) but was not expected to have it at such a young age (teens). **************************** c: Even the meanings/teachings of Abhidhamma often suffers do to subjective interpretations. I think you are interpreting noble and ariyan to mean "at least sotapanna". And I do not remember them having any thing to do with sotapanna. ----------------------------------------------- P: Again, I think the suttas are quite explicit on this point. Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary notes are, at least. I agree with you, yes, we who are new to Abhidhamma will make subjective interpretations to make everything fit together nicely. Sure. But still less room for this, because there is less conventional language, few narratives. ................................................... If the suttras are explicit on this point, you would not have to resort to looking at the commentaries. And I don't ever recall reading a Noble ... or an Aryan ... is a sotapanna or higher. What I do recall reading was talk about how good these people were and that they were not into animal sacrifices to bring about and end to their suffering. I think what you are doing is trying to compare some of the attributes of each and concluding that ... ********************************************* C: Yes, it is true that sometimes all WE can hope for is a brief experience of liberation, but I don't think it is as far away as you think. Yes, you have to give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done, and it is very very tough -- not impossible unless you really don't want it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ph: Maybe I am secretly hoping for liberation much sooner but am vesting my posts in words about patience - a kind of strategy of self lying back, pretending to be out of the picture. Who knows? Maybe you and others are just more honest about wanting liberation in this lifetime. I think we say things are very very tough we are setting up a project for self. I think it's impossible to do things that are "tough" without self at the center of it. But as you said yesterday, in your viewpoint it is necessary to use a health self, a healthy ego to work towards eliminating self. As I said, I know what you mean because I thought so as well as recently as 6 months ago and - who knows? - may feel that way again someday. ............................... It may be both, patience and pretending to be out of the picture, together is a good strategy for you, Who knows? And, "whether self is at the center or not" is not the most useful question to ask. My prayer is that: when either of the three (i.e., "I", "me", or "mine") arise, there is enlightenment as a condition. After all, what good is enlightenment unless it is conventional, real to every one around you. ************************************ C: The no-self doctrine also exist in religions like Satanism, evolution, and extreme capitalism. In the Buddha's day there was also another group that believed in the no-self (the anilist). ---------------------------------------- P: I don't think annata is nihilistic. I wrote something about that to Christine today. Anatta is what allows us the fluditiy to change, I think, to grow, to develop more wholesome tendencies. We are not stuck in self-created stories. There can be wholesome change at every moment because at every moment "we" are just rupa and nama rising and falling in a conditioned way. We are not stuck in being Phil or Charles with all the baggage, all the stories. .............. The purpose of Anatta is to remind us of the characteristics of existence: compounded, conditioned, changing/dynamic, impermanent, and ultimately uncontrollable. However, the way I see it, people use it in a way that is nihilistic. What they miss is that Anatta allows for a belief in re-birth, re-incarnation, and samsaric existence. It does not dismiss or contradict the teachings on karma or the need for morality. Anatta tries to give people (i.e., the ancient Hindus) a view of self that was in the middle of the nihilistic and eternalistic views. And, the thing it added was that this "self" was not yours to ..., or at least not permanently yours. CharlesD 45831 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Dear Htoo, There is only one difference between M to M DO and 3 Life times DO, it is the length of time the events can last. The events/processes listed are the same. Charlesd ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 21 May, 2005 11:34 Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? <...> Dear TG, Thanks for your explanation in respect to physical example. aviija(ignorance) --> sankhara(formations) --> vin nana(consciousness)--> nama-rupa(ment-phys)-->salayatana(6-sense-base)-->phassa(contact) --> vedana(feeling) --> tanha(craving) -->upadana(clinging)--> bhavo(existence) --> jati(birth)--> ---> jara(ageing),marana(death),soka(sorrow), parideva(lamentation), dukkha(pain),domanassa(mental suffering),upayasa(despair)..... This is 3-lives Dependent Origination. I just asked you to explain on 'moment to moment' Dependent Origination'. <...> 45832 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles I have also herd that M to M DO was Buddadasa interpretation. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: LBIDD@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 21 May, 2005 03:39 Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? Htoo: "Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention?" Hi Htoo, I think this idea originated with Ajahn Buddadasa, http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/documents/the_way_it_is/20moa.html The general idea seems to be that each link is just a moment, not lasting. <...> 45833 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii nilovg Hi Tep, I learn from this passage that there are many ways of clinging to breath and the yogavacara has to be extremely careful and he has to know: when is there clinging and when is there right concentration on the nimitta, the breath as it appears at the nosetip or upperlip. The commentary speaks of the upakilesas as a danger for samadhi. The distractions disturb mind and body. To compare this with walking I think is problematic, because walking is not a meditation subject for jhaana as is breathing. Nina. op 21-05-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:> > This section deals with the 18 imperfections that arise "in momentary > sequence", not simultaneously in one moment. 45834 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. nilovg Dear Htoo, op 18-05-2005 14:36 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > My questions are > > 1.'Are jhaanas required to attain arahatta magga?' > 2.'Are jhaanas required to attain anaagaami magga?' ----------- N: We have discussed the subject of sukkha vipassaka before and there are many posts in U.P. referring to sutta texts about arahats who are dry insight workers. It takes too much time find all these posts. The term dry insight is used in the commentaries. I can give some quotes taken from a study done for the Foundation in Bangkok I translated from Thai. This study is about fruition attainment, phala-samaapatti. This can only be attained by those who are also jhaanalabhii. This study speaks also about arahats who cannot, since they have not cultivated jhaana, and thus, there are dry insight arahats. < In the Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², to Chapter IX, Equanimity about Formations (sankhårupekkhåñåna), we read about the arahat without fruition-attainment: ³With regard to the abiding in the three kinds of insight by the arahats who wish to abide in vipassanå, without fruition-attainment: they see the clinging to oneself as a danger, and they are inclined to the void abiding (suññatå vihåra, voidness of self); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the void abiding. They see as a danger the characteristics of conditioned realities (sankhåranimitta), and they are inclined to the signless abiding (animitta vihåra); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the signless abiding. They see as a danger the steadfastness of clinging, and they are inclined to the desireless abiding (appanihita vihåra); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the desireless abiding. With regard to the arahats who are sukkhavipassaka, with ³dry² insight (insight alone), they have attained arahatship with lokuttara cittas without jhåna factors of the different stages of jhåna, but they have calm of citta since defilements have been completely eradicated. If they have accumulated the inclination to calm of the degree of jhånacitta, then they are able to enter fruition-attainment, which is ³abiding in bliss here now² (ditthadhamma sukhavihåra). With respect to this, we read in the Subcommentary (Tíka) to the Vinaya, the Såratthadípaní, in the section ³Through wisdom (vijjå)²: ³As to the words stating the benefit of citta which has a single object, thus, the benefit of citta with samådhi, concentration, these have been explained as follows: the benefit of ³abiding in bliss here now² (ditthadhamma sukhavihåra). The abiding in bliss (sukha) here now, the commentator describes this with the leading words that the citta has a single object and that the citta having a single object has that benefit. This refers to the arahat who has dry insight (sukkha vipassaka).²> End quote. ---------------- Htoo: Are jhaanas required to attain anaagaami magga? > > I ask this because 'anaagam do not have kaama raaga and dosa' > and 'brahmas also do not have kaama raga and dosa even though they > have not eradicated as in case of anagams'. > So my deduction is that 'anagams must have jhaana before they attain > anagami magga. > My 2nd reason is that anagams are reborn in 5 of 7 4th jhaana rupa > brahma bhuumis. So they must have 4th jhaana when they were just > going to attain anagami magga. ---------- Nina: we have to differentiate between:1. is jhaana necessary to become an anaagaami, and: 2. the kinds of rebirths of an anagaamii. as to 1: just as there are sukkha vipassaka arahats, there are sukkha vipassaka anaagaamiis. 2: This is more complicated, since there are five classes of anaagaamiis. We saw above that there arahat who is sukkha vipassaka may be inclined to develop jhaana afterwards and attain phala-samaapatti. Evenso, the anaagaami who attained as sukkha vipassaka is naturally inclined to calm and may develop jhaana afterwards. If he is to be reborn in another plane this can condition rebirth in a ruupa-brahma plane. It would take a long study of texts to go through all the different possibilities. Nina. 45835 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? nilovg Hi Htoo and Larry, op 21-05-2005 03:39 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Htoo: "Dear Friends in Dhamma, > If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in > short? > And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > origination'. > Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention?" ---- N: I just quote an intro by Ven. Bodhi: To prevent misunderstanding it has to be stressed that the distribution of the twelve factors into three lives is an expository device employed for the purpose of exhibiting the inner dynamics of the round. It should not be read as implying hard and fast divisions, for in lived experience the factors are always intertwined. The past causes include craving, clinging, and existence, the present ones ignorance and volitional formations; the present resultants begin with birth and end in death, and future birth and death will be incurred by the same resultants. Moreover, the present resultant and causal phases should not be seen as temporally segregated from each other, as if assigned to different periods of life. Rather, through the entire course of life, they succeed one another with incredible rapidity in an alternating sequence of result and action; the action is followed by more results; and these are again followed by still more action. So it has gone on through time without beginning, and so it continues. From this it is clear that dependent arising does not describe a set of causes somehow underlying experience, mysteriously hidden out of view. What it describes is the fundamental pattern of experience as such when enveloped by ignorance as to the basic truths about itself. This pattern is always present, always potentially accessible to our awareness, only without the guidance of the Buddha's teaching it will not be properly attended to, and thus will not be seen for what it is. It takes a Buddha to point out the startling truth that the basic pattern of experience is itself the source of our bondage, "the origin of this entire mass of suffering."> End quote. And here is atext that was quoted by Rob K: From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind)> end quote. This can help us to connect the D.P. with daily life. Nina. 45836 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 9:12am Subject: Re: Five Generations foamflowers Hi Sarah (Dhammafriends), Thank you for the lovely note on my visit with family. I put the experience to some of the Dhamma notes I've been collecting. Direct experience (paccanubhotipaccanubhoti) What does this word mean? Dukkha (suffering) unease and never satisfied and everyone at the celebration of our Great, Great, Grandmother and our first GGGrandchild, cried for one reason or another (happy and sad tears), the ties that bind so tightly they cut when it comes to being a parent, sibling, daughter or son. Watching loved ones laugh and cry and understanding both will pass was an awesome experience. Gratitude for Buddha's teachings still makes me feel teary eyed. Eternal happiness-paramam sukhamparamam sukham I haven't found this yet...? Vipassana. Etymologically, the word has been derived from the root 'pas' which means 'to see' with the prefix 'vi' which means 'visesa'-in a special manner or 'vividham'-from different angle. [lisah] I am the oldest of the Grand children and the first to bring Great Grandchildren into our family and also Great Great Grandchildren. To watch the very old and the very young move together was interesting as I applied what I saw to my Dhamma lessons ..the young were moved about by every wisp of emotion and touch of feeling. The older folk seemed to stand back and watch, older skin sages so it was hard to see what my Grandma was feeling, between her strokes and older skin nothing much moved her face, she seemed so distant until we all wanted to take a walk and she couldn't because she had hurt her foot. She said, "How do you know I can't walk?" in a very strong clear voice. I saw she was troubled by her failing body and not at all resigned to sitting in a chair and just watching the family! Vipassana communicates the sense of observing or seeing in a special manner-Visesato passatiti vipassanavisesena passati ti vipassana or Aniccadivasena vividhena akarena passati ti vipassana. (Seeing what is impermanent from different angles, being able to look at phenomena in many ways?) Seeing things as they really are (yatha bhuta nana dassanamyatha bhuta nana dassanam), not as they appear to be. [lisah] Even though I know reality is filtered through flesh and memory and comes out in bits and pieces I will not run away from what is inside my head or outside of it. I don't think reality is parts of parts, that is conceptual thinking and a view of the conventional world. Reality is not a part or a whole of something else. I will not run away from this world or grab tightly to it...although holding my Grandson was delightful, when he started really fussing I gave him back to my daughter! hahahah...., I can't help it this really made me giggle. One of the great things about being a Grandma is giving my Grandchild back to my daughter because I couldn't feed him, my daughter only can, although I did feed him some fruit I don't have Mommies special milk. Pannattim thapetvapannattim thapetva visesena passati ti vipassana. Putting aside concept, he sees in a special way, thus it is Vipassana. [lisah] I'm still working on this one...as soon as I think I'm finished with concepts I get hooked on another one that comes up and off I go on another trip in my head! We had some gossip start in the family one evening and the person wasn't there to defend themselves...I feel into for a 'moment' and didn't like it one bit and told some of my family I thought it was wrong to talk badly about someone who wasn't here and if we really wanted to know what was going on we should ask. In the past I would of felt uncomfortable and let it go and just said nothing at all. anicca (impermanence) [lisah]All the laughter and tears have passed now after my adventure in the the realm of 'Grandma Land' and here I sit writing out this story. I've understood that with sensation there is also a mental reaction to this sensation but I had never really tried to split that up into names like nama and rupa . It actually did help me understand the process on an intellectual level as I went through my day during our family gathering, it was very helpful actually! [lisah]I think experience (meditation) and intellectual understanding are needed. If someone isn't grounded well with sati and panna than the study of Abhidhamma could be overwhelming. When I first started Abhidhamma study I woke up or couldn't go to sleep because of the flurry of words in my head and new links being formed on an intellectual level with other areas of understanding that don't carry words. Abhidhamma stirred up the sediment and still does...lol Aniccadivasena dhammeaniccadivasena dhamme passati ti vipassana. He sees phenomena as impermanent etc., thus it is Vipassana. dukkha (suffering) Listening to my Grandson and also my Niece and Nephew ( 5 and 2) cry over their issues and watching my Sister and Daughter struggle to control their own aversion to their children's crying and their reaction to this pain and my need to sooth them as well, I also wanted to control the situation, instead I helped clean the house. There is a lot of dukkha...it is very subtle indeed and my sister's house is now very clean. anatta (egolessness) Don't the virtues unbind us from what we think we are, like metta, compassion. sympathetic joy, [[[patience and tolerance]]] and so on? It's really hard to hold onto the negatives when you're looking for the subtle sensations that are also present along with the virtues that's what I've noticed. When I work with myself and my family I know that each instance of happiness or sadness is going to pass and I still react by grasping or running away from the movement because of that. Noting the subtle sensations that also come along with the presents of something like metta helps me stay steady and deal with issue right now rather than holding to tightly or running away. I don't know if this is true, maybe it is my imagination, but I found that knowing the subtle sensations that come along with metta or compassion seem to be like water and food for these subtle patterns and help them grow. It's the same with the negative things like anger, frustration and hatred. If I focus on these patterns they seem to get stronger and bigger. Tisso ima, bhikkhave, vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna khaya-dhamma vaya-dhamma viraga-dhamma nirodha-dhamma. These three types of sensations, O meditators, are impermanent, compounded, arising owing to a cause, perishable, by nature passing away, detached and ceasing. [lisah] I thought of this last passage often as the family talked about the past after the dinner meal was over and we all were relaxed. My two sisters and their families as well as my own family are growing fast and we are also aging and our Mother and Grandmother are fading, my Father and his Parents and my Mother's Father have already passed. The reflection on the cycle of birth and death and standing back gave a freshness to the interactions I had with people I have known for all of my life. It is much easier to love someone when I am not running away or holding to tightly to what is always changing in a person. [[(Htoo, I mean loving kindness, I really try and keep with that kind of pattern all the time, it's a good meditation for me because I used to be so angry and mean to myself and everyone else around me)]] From the Brahmajala Suttabrahmajala Sutta I think this translation was taken from Goenka's teacher Sayagyi U Ba Khin, Vedananam samudayam ca atthangamam ca assadam ca adinavam ca nissaranam ca yatha-bhutam viditva anupada-vimutto, bhikkhave Tathagato. Having experienced as they really are, the arising of sensations, their passing away, the relishing in them, the danger in them, and the release from them, the Enlightened One, O monks, has become free without grasping. Maybe a Mother and Grandmother can do this too? Seyyathapi, bhikkhave, agantukagaramagantukagaram. Tattha puratthimaya pi disaya agantva vasam kappenti, pacchimaya pi disaya...uttaraya pi disaya... dakkhinaya pi disaya... khattiya pi... brahmana pi... vessa pi... sudda pi... Evameva kho, bhikkhave, imasmim kayasmim vividha vedana uppajjanti. Sukha pi vedana uppajjanti, dukkha pi... adukkhamasukha pi... samisa pi sukha... samisa pi dukkha... samisa pi adukkhamasukha... niramisa pi sukha... niramisa pi dukkha... niramisa pi adukkhamasukha... vedana uppajjati ti. Suppose, O meditators, there is a public guest-house. People come there to stay from the east, the west, the north and the south. People who are Kshatriyas, Brahmins, Vaishyas and Shudras. Similarly, O meditators, various sensations arise in this body. Pleasant bodily sensations, unpleasant bodily sensations, neither unpleasant nor pleasant bodily sensations, arise. Pleasant bodily sensations arise with attachment, unpleasant bodily sensations arise with attachment, neither unpleasant nor pleasant bodily sensations arise with attachment. Pleasant bodily sensations arise without attachment, unpleasant bodily sensations arise without attachment, neither unpleasant nor pleasant bodily sensations arise without attachment. [lisah] No matter what happens I am going to have sensations along with this body and that is just the way it is and as I get older many of these sensations are not so nice...(sigh) How I react to them is changing though as I practice walking in Gotama's footsteps. As I sit, walk, lay down, work, play, eat and so on I can be mindful of the comings and goings of sensations and let them pass with loving kindness and compassion, tolerance, patience or even sympathetic joy if they are lovely sensations. Yatha pi vata akasevata akase, vayanti vividha puthu;Puratthima pacchima ca pi, uttara atha dakkhina. Saraja araja ca pi, sita unha ca ekada; Adhimatta paritta ca, puthu vayanti maluta. Tathevimasmim kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; Sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha ca ya. Just as in the sky different winds as different winds in the sky blow, from east and west, from north and south, dust-laden or dustless, cold or hot, fierce gales or gentle breezes, many winds blow. So also pleasant, unpleasant or neutral sensations arise within the body. How, then, does the observation of these body sensations lead to liberation? What is the release from vedana which the Buddha declared he had experienced? Yam vedanam paticca uppajjati sukham somanassam, ayam vedanaya assado. Ya vedana anicca dukkha viparinama-dhamma, ayam vedanaya adinavo. Yo vedanaya chandaraga-vinayo chandaragappahanam, idam vedanaya nissaranam. The relishing of sensation is the physical and mental happiness arising from sensations. The danger in sensations is that they are impermanent, the cause of suffering, and subject to change. The escape or release from sensations is the removal and abandonment of craving for the stimulation of sensations. Yato ca bhikkhu atapi, sampajannam na rincatiatapi, sampajannam na rincati; tato so vedana sabba, parijanati pandito. When a meditator, striving ardently, does not lose sampajanna, the thorough understanding of impermanence, even for a moment, such a wise person fully comprehends and experiences all sensations by exploring the entire field. By constantly observing the sensations in the body, one experiences the arising and passing away. This constant observation of the body sensations based on the realisation of impermanence is sampajanna. Thus one who practises sampajanna one who practises sampajanna is a wise person. Instead of relishing or hating, he constantly observes the sensations with equanimity, understanding thoroughly their impermanent nature. This practice eliminates the very habit of reacting as well as the stock of past conditioning of the mind. In doing so, the meditator frees his mind from craving, aversion and ignorance, from all the defilements of the mind, and goes beyond vedana. He attains nibbana, the final emancipation. In the words of the Buddha- Sampajanna attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension, circumspection Vipassana inward vision, insight, intuition, introspection --anga constituent of intuition --upekkha indifference by introspection --kammatthana exercise for intuition --nana ability or method of attaining insight --dhura obligation of introspection More scribbles to come, with Metta, Lisa P.S. I've been reading [[ALL]] the emails coming from DSG...excellent dialoges going on here! 45837 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi Nina - Why is walking (one of the iriyapatha) problematic while breathing is not? Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom> > To compare this with walking I think is problematic, because walking is not > a meditation subject for jhaana as is breathing. > Nina. > > op 21-05-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...:> > > This section deals with the 18 imperfections that arise "in momentary > > sequence", not simultaneously in one moment. 45838 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 10:39am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (410) / You Have been Warned! :-) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - > Htoo: > Thanks for your reply to Dhamma Thread 410. > > Who have been warned? Pardon? > T: The clue was in the message # 45388 : > S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and > self is thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the contrary. > > T: By agreeing, it means that you also have the same extreme view on self. Do you want to change that wrong view now? ... S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were warned:-). Htoo, do you get it now? Regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > I just reinclude the dialogue between Hasituppada and Sarah, which is > you put in your reply to Dhamma Thread 410. > > Htoo: > > I just remember a writing by a westerner. It is 'Three cheers of > tanha' ? by Morrison someone. He wrote that The Buddha had craving to attain nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 21, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hi Sarah nilovg Hi James, A very nice and sincere letter which I appreciate, and, as Tep says, very Buddhist, Nina. op 21-05-2005 15:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Hi James - > > There you go -- that's what I call "good diplomacy" and it is also very > Buddhist. > 45840 From: "mnease" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. mlnease Hi Nina, Guess I should bring this back to the list as there's still more I don't understand: Somehow I'd got the idea that, for each stage, the path, then the fruit each arose for only one moment and then were gone for good. Is this 'agian and again' attainment a kind of reviewing, or...? Thanks, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: "mnease" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:42 AM Subject: Re: dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. > Hi Mike, > No, it is still different. Phalasamapatti is the attainment of fruition > again and again during his life, after the maggacittas and phalacittas have > fallen away during the process enlightenment is attained. > Of course, for everyone who attains enlightenment, phalacittas follow > immediately upon the maggacitta, in the same process. Akalika. > Nina. > op 21-05-2005 20:01 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > > > This is really interesting--I had no idea that the sukkhavipassaka did not > > attain fruition! I've always assumed that phala (preceded of course by > > magga) was essential to the each stage of awakening. 45841 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 1:55pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (411) buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > When the proficiency in 1st jhaana is attained through 5 exercises, > the practitioner will see that the 1st jhaana is close to 'the > enemies' of 1st jhaana. > > What are the enemies of 1st jhaana? > > 1. sensuous thoughts or kamacchanda nivarana > 2. aversive thoughts or byaapaada nivarana > 3. sloth-torpored thoughts or thina-middha nivarana > 4. wandering-worrying thoughts or uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana > 5. suspicious thoughts or vicikicchaa nivarana Would it be possible for you to explain this part without Pali? Metta, James 45842 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:02pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > The sign at this stage (tetrad #1) is just the point of touch : > > 8. (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjita) to the sign, his cognizance is > shakable by in-breath, this is an obstacle to concentration. ["The sign > is the place where the in-breaths and out-breaths touch. For in-breaths > and out-breaths as they occur strike the nose-tip of one with a long > nose and the upper lip of one with a short nose." PsA 323 S] > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > === Thank you for this information; however, now I wonder how one is supposed to be aware of in-breaths and out-breaths as seperate from the sign (which is the touch). In my practice, touch is the only way to be aware of the breaths. Is there another way I am missing? Metta, James 45843 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Re: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi James > > Hope you had a good week. Saw in your post to Sarah that you're > a bit under the weather. Yes I am, so please give me a few days before I respond to your post in detail. Thanks. Metta, James 45844 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hi Sarah buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > A very nice and sincere letter which I appreciate, and, as Tep says, very > Buddhist, > Nina. Thanks for this e-mail and your other recent e-mail. You often send me e-mails for which I have no response, but I do appreciate the e-mails nevertheless. Frankly, I think that all of my letters are Buddhist- even the bitchy ones- but I make the choice (notice: free will) not to go into that now. Metta, James 45845 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (412) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 14 meditations that can give rise to 2nd jhaana. They are 10 kasina kammatthaanas, 3 of 4 brahmavihaaras, and 1 aanaapaanasati kammatthaana. ( 10 + 3 + 1 = 14 ) All these meditations have to based on 1st jhaana as the ground. The practitioner enter the 1st jhana and soon he exits and scrutinizes his 1st jhaana and dispassionates vitakka-vicaara as potential enemies to prospective 2nd jhaana. He then again enters the 1st jhaana and soon emerges from it and scrutinizes it and sees with his own experience that vitakka-vicaara are potential enemies to the prospective 2nd jhaana and at a time when vitakka-vicaara no more arise in him he is close to 2nd jhaana. At each exit, he sees that there are suffused joy or piiti, tranquility or sukha, and one-pointedness or cittekaggataa and there is no hindrances and he knows that he is pure and free of defilements. Once he is absorbed into 2nd jhaana. 2nd jhaana also arises only a moment. Next times there are more and more 2nd jhaana moments and these again have to be practised through 5 different exercises of vasii namely avajjana or contemplating, samapajjana or attaining, adhitthaana or determing, votthana or emerging, paccavakkhana or scrutinizing exercises. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45846 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:45pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (411) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > When the proficiency in 1st jhaana is attained through 5 exercises, > > the practitioner will see that the 1st jhaana is close to 'the > > enemies' of 1st jhaana. > > > > What are the enemies of 1st jhaana? > > > > 1. sensuous thoughts or kamacchanda nivarana > > 2. aversive thoughts or byaapaada nivarana > > 3. sloth-torpored thoughts or thina-middha nivarana > > 4. wandering-worrying thoughts or uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana > > 5. suspicious thoughts or vicikicchaa nivarana > > > Would it be possible for you to explain this part without Pali? > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, The whole part can be understood well. I cannot taste salt-free food. If one print out that message, he or she can vanish Pali words with correction-pen as there are already translated words near by. With respect, Htoo Naing 45847 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear Charles, Thanks for your message. It is clear. Beacuse of 'ignorance', kamma-formations arise. Because of formation, consciousness arise. Because of consciousness, mentality-materiality arise. Because of mentality-materiality, 6 sense-base arise. Because of 6 sense-base, 6 contacts arise. Because of 6 contacts, 6 feelings arise. Because of 6 feelings, 6 cravings arise. Because of 6 cravings, 6 clinging arise. Because of clinging, existence arise. Because of existence, birth arise. When there is birth, death is inevitable. Ageing is part of life and so are other dhamma like disease, sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, mental pain or aversion, and despair or hopelessness. But how 12 links apply to 'moment to moment' phenomena. 12 links are 1. ignorance ( it can arise moment to moment matter) 2. formation ( ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ) 3. consciousness( ,, ) 4. mentality-materiality (what happen in moment to moment matter?) 5. 6 sense-base (do they rise moment to moment) I do not think so. Even if they arise they are 17 times a moment. 6. contact ( it can arise in moment to moment) 7. feeling ( ,, ) 8. craving ( ,, ) 9. clinging( how can this arise?) 10.existence ( existence of what in moment to moment?) 11.birth ( There is just a birth in a life. But one may argue that birth of a consciousness moment to moment. OK) 12.ageing/death (like birth, so leave it alone). With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > You asked the following questions. "... explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then ... 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention?" > > In short, DO lists the processes involved in beginning to suffer (birth, sickness, old age, and death). It is based on the cause and effect principle. It uses that principle to explain the relationships between the steps (like links in a chain) from the root cause to suffering. > > Moment to moment DO is an interpretation of DO (one way of explaining it / applying it). And I do not remember seeing it in the tipitaka. > > Every concept is someone's invention, so yes. > > CharlesD > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: htootintnaing > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, 20 May, 2005 15:26 > Subject: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? > > > Dear Friends in Dhamma, > > If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in > short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? > > Thanks in advance, > > Htoo Naing > 45848 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear Charles, I am not clear. Could you please give examples in both cases? With respect, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > There is only one difference between M to M DO and 3 Life times DO, it is the length of time the events can last. The events/processes listed are the same. > > Charlesd > ----- Original Message ----- > From: htootintnaing > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 21 May, 2005 11:34 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? > > > <...> > Dear TG, > > Thanks for your explanation in respect to physical example. > > aviija(ignorance) --> sankhara(formations) --> vin > nana(consciousness)--> > nama-rupa(ment-phys)-->salayatana(6-sense-base)-->phassa (contact) --> > vedana(feeling) --> tanha(craving) -->upadana(clinging)--> > bhavo(existence) --> jati(birth)--> > > ---> jara(ageing),marana(death),soka(sorrow), parideva (lamentation), > dukkha(pain),domanassa(mental suffering),upayasa(despair)..... > > This is 3-lives Dependent Origination. > > I just asked you to explain on 'moment to moment' Dependent > Origination'. > > <...> 45849 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:03pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (411) buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > > What are the enemies of 1st jhaana? > > > > > > 1. sensuous thoughts or kamacchanda nivarana > > > 2. aversive thoughts or byaapaada nivarana > > > 3. sloth-torpored thoughts or thina-middha nivarana > > > 4. wandering-worrying thoughts or uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana > > > 5. suspicious thoughts or vicikicchaa nivarana > > > > > > Would it be possible for you to explain this part without Pali? > > > > Metta, > > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear James, > > The whole part can be understood well. I cannot taste salt-free food. > If one print out that message, he or she can vanish Pali words with > correction-pen as there are already translated words near by. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, My mistake. I thought the phrases had the word "and" instead of "or". However, it would still be nice to have some further explanation of these phrases since they are the enemies of the first jhana. I don't get the impression that you have come up with this information on your own, so where did you get this information? Are there more details of these phrases in the original source? Metta, James 45850 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Nina - > > Why is walking (one of the iriyapatha) problematic while breathing is > not? > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom> > To compare this with walking I think is problematic, because walking is not a meditation subject for jhaana as is breathing. Nina. > > > > op 21-05-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...:> > > > This section deals with the 18 imperfections that arise "in momentary > > > sequence", not simultaneously in one moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Nina and all, Nina already included 'walking is not a meditation subject for jhaana as is breathing. Yes. For absorptive concentraion stillness is a requirement. 1. sitting 2. standing 3. lying can be the positions that support jhaana. But walking is not. No jhaanalaabhi or no jhana experts are walking when they are in jhaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45851 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (413) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, At each moment of 2nd jhaana, there has already been citta-sankhaara or mental formation as 2nd jhaana kusala kamma. These kamma have the potentials to give rise to 2nd jhaana rupavipaka cittas. If one who has 2nd jhaana and he dies with 2nd rupa jhaana, he will definitely be reborn in brahma bhuumi or fine material realm with 2nd jhaana rupavipaka citta as patisandhi citta. It is extremely difficult to develop jhaana especially at near death. Most beings will be facing with unsatisfactory objects at their near death. Only a few will have agreeable objects for them and will die happily while taking those objects as their last moment consciousness's object. To die with 2nd jhaana, one has to practise 2nd jhaana to the proficient level. Again this requires skilful practising and exercising on 2nd jhana with 5 kinds of exercises namely 1. avajjana vasii or contemplation exercise 2. samapajjana vasii or attaining exercise 3. adhitthaana vasii or determing exercise 4. votthaana vasii or emerging exercise 5. paccavakkhana vasii or scrutinizing exercise When scrutinized, there find that piiti or suffused joy is close to the potential enemies to prospective 3rd jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45852 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, It would take a long study of texts to go through all the different possibilities. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. I think, Sarah and I argued on phala-samapatti. Abhidhammatthasangaha says all phalatthaana puggala can attain furition- attainment. Regarding 4th jhaana rupa brahmas their rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta is 5th rupavipaka citta. This vipaka citta also serves as life-continuing consciousness and also serves as life-ceasing consciousness. To happen this is that those beings in 4th jhaana rupa brahmas must have 5th rupakusala citta as marana-asanna-javana citta. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Sukka or sukkha? Sukka means 'white' 'clean' 'pure'. 45853 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Dear Sarah, Thanks, it does help and I know there are a lot of other sutras that talks about the Buddha's view on Nobles, Aryans, and Brahmans. They probably give differing levels of attainments (knowing the Buddha), and the different translations probably use them interchangeably -- thus making their ... quite relative. And ok, I will try to remember to address even my one-liners. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 18 May, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Hi CharlesD (& Phil) --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Philip and all, > > My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training > in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I > don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from > suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the > words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related > to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and > ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat > others. ... S: Butting back into this thread I see I once started:) Charles, you may be thinking of 'brahman' rather than 'ariyan' as in Dhammapada 386 (Narada transl): "He who is meditative*, stainless and secluded, he who has done his duty and is free from corruptions, he who has attained the Highest Goal, - him I call a braahma.na." *-'he who practises concentrations (samatha) and insight (vipassanaa).' Hope this helps. Good to read all your threads, Charles. Metta, Sarah p.s Grateful when you make it clear exactly whom your post is addressed to as you usually (but not always!!) do. ===================================== 45854 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Htoo, You said: "So far I have not found anyone who will satisfactorily answer on the questions on mahanidana sutta. Regarding 'paticcasamuppada', once I heard a person claiming that the D.O is rotating and that D.O is also rotating in arahats with remaining links. And some said there is 'moment to moment' D.O. I do know that some links are quite close and actually they arise simultaneously. Help from anyone?" I am having trouble understanding what are your questions. Could you please explain them further (i.e., what is it about DO that you have issue with)? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 21 May, 2005 12:02 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? ... Dear Matheesha, Thanks for your explanation. I admire mahanidana sutta. But I am still trying to understand each and every part of that sutta because some parts are not clear to me. So far I have not found anyone who will satifactorily answer on the questions on mahanidana sutta. Regarding 'paticcasamuppada', once I heard a person claiming that the D.O is rotating and that D.O is also rotating in arahats with remaining links. And some said there is 'moment to moment' D.O. I do know that some links are quite close and actually they arise simultaneously. Help from anyone? With respect, Htoo Naing 45855 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Htoo and Larry, > becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, > lamentation, > pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, > body > and mind)> > end quote. > This can help us to connect the D.P. with daily life. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you much for your message. Sorry, thank you very much for your message. Thank you so much for your message. I can sense now. 1.ignorance --> 2. formation --> 3. consciousness --> 4. ment-mate--> 5. 6-sense-base--> 6. contact --> 7. feeling --> 8. craving --> 9. clinging --> 10. existence--> 11. birth --> 12. .../death --> Cause causes the effect. The effect causes next effect. And there is endless round and there is no initial point in real sense. Even though there are cause and effect, some links arise at the same time. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45856 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (411) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Htoo, Hi Htoo, My mistake. I thought the phrases had the word "and" instead of "or". However, it would still be nice to have some further explanation of these phrases since they are the enemies of the first jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would do that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: I don't get the impression that you have come up with this information on your own, so where did you get this information? Are there more details of these phrases in the original source? Metta, James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear James, I am frequently asked for references. Some suggested me that 'in the west writers quote their source' and if I mentioned my sources my writing would be much more valuable. As I frequently mention, my main source is 'Abhidhammatthasangaha by Venerable Anuruddhaa'. Other sources are explanations of Pali experts and Dhamma experts. I just write Dhamma Thread series based on 'Abhidhammatthasangaha' and it is also florished with my old memories derived from teachings of many different Sayadaws who always quoted Tipitaka. The problem is that I cannot remember the quoted materials. I will write on 5 hindrances in a separate post. With respect, Htoo Naing 45857 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 3:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: Hi Htoo, You said: "So far I have not found anyone who will satisfactorily answer on the questions on mahanidana sutta. Regarding 'paticcasamuppada', once I heard a person claiming that the D.O is rotating and that D.O is also rotating in arahats with remaining links. And some said there is 'moment to moment' D.O. I do know that some links are quite close and actually they arise simultaneously. Help from anyone?" I am having trouble understanding what are your questions. Could you please explain them further (i.e., what is it about DO that you have issue with)? CharlesD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Charles, My questions are 1. Dependent Origination or 'paticca-samuppaada' has 12 links and it is rotating. What are these 12 links in puthujana or ordinary people? 2. Dependent Origination or 'paticca-samuppaada' also happen in arahats. It continues with remaining links of D.O. Arahats do not have tanha and avijja. What are the links in case of arahats? 3. As a continuation of question 2, how do those remaining links rotate the D.O? 4. Some claim that D.O is also working 'moment to moment'. There is 'moment to moment D.O'. If so, what are the links of 'moment to moment D.O'? I hope this is a good summary of questions that embedded in my earlier message. With respect, Htoo Naing 45858 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi James - Touch is always in the foreground, while the yogi is aware of the in-breath and out-breath at the same time. For example, when he breaths in, his consciousness does not follow the breathing inward; the yogi's cognizance stays with the touch point ("the sign"). Yet, he is fully aware that he is breathing in and the breathing is long or short. After his concentration is better developed, he will also be able to know the beginning, the middle and the end of the breath, while his cognizance is not distracted from the sign. Similarly, the yogi is fully aware of out-breaths while establishing his concentration in the front (at the sign).His keen awareness is, therefore, simultaneously over the three things: the sign, in-breath, and out-breath. Such balancing act is explained in the Vuddhimagga as follows: Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness; By one who knows not these three things Development is not obtained. Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single consciousness; By one who does know these three things Development can be obtained. VM, VIII,201. I hope my explanation above makes sense. If it is not yet clear, please tell. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Thank you for this information; however, now I wonder how one is > supposed to be aware of in-breaths and out-breaths as seperate from > the sign (which is the touch). In my practice, touch is the only way > to be aware of the breaths. Is there another way I am missing? > > Metta, > James 45859 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha htootintnaing Dear Tep, Sarah, and DSG members, The Buddha preached the very first doctrine to His first 5 disciples. In that teaching, He preached 'the middle way'. The middle starts with 'right understanding' or 'samma-ditthi'. In essence, it is pannindriya cetasika or panna. Understanding is so important that it comes first among 8 parted Path. When pariyatti is wrong then patipatti is wrong and there is no pativedha. When an arrow is released from a bow and it goes not to the target, the destination will be far from the target. So trigonometrically speaking, tangent theta has to be zero so that the arrow hits the target. To happen such thing, the initial understanding has to be right one. Otherwise the target will be totally missed. Right. I think this is 'The Main Reason' that DSG old members are very reluctant to do 'sitting meditation'. They do not want to control dhamma. When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance of realization. In forest, there are many selves who have been meditating. Each self is trying to develop panna. At the same time, there are many selves, who themselves believe that they are not selves but anatta while sitting in restaurants, driving a car carrying a flock of children to and from school, swimming in a pool, shopping at a supermarket and using credit cards. Finally history books would have said such self did such thing because she or he was afraid of atta while such and such selves are meditating and liberating from loka niriya. Lice are always happy in the filth. May you all be free from danger of atta, :-)) With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45860 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi again, James - There was a bad word that I want to change : >His keen awareness is, therefore, simultaneously over the >three things: the sign, in-breath, and out-breath. The word "simultaneously" was misleading because in-breath and out- breath do not occur at the same time. Replace it by 'happening" : His keen awareness is, therefore, happening over the three things: ...... Resprectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James - > > Touch is always in the foreground, while the yogi is aware of the in- breath > and out-breath at the same time. For example, when he breaths in, his > consciousness does not follow the breathing inward; the yogi's > cognizance stays with the touch point ("the sign"). Yet, he is fully aware that > he is breathing in and the breathing is long or short. After his concentration > is better developed, he will also be able to know the beginning, the > middle and the end of the breath, while his cognizance is not distracted > from the sign. Similarly, the yogi is fully aware of out-breaths while > establishing his concentration in the front (at the sign).His keen awareness > is, therefore, simultaneously over the three things: the sign, in-breath, and > out-breath. > > Such balancing act is explained in the Vuddhimagga as follows: > > Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object > Of a single consciousness; > By one who knows not these three things > Development is not obtained. > Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object > Of a single consciousness; > By one who does know these three things > Development can be obtained. VM, VIII,201. > > > I hope my explanation above makes sense. If it is not yet clear, please tell. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ====== > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > (snipped) > > > > Thank you for this information; however, now I wonder how one is > > supposed to be aware of in-breaths and out-breaths as seperate from > > the sign (which is the touch). In my practice, touch is the only way > > to be aware of the breaths. Is there another way I am missing? > > > > Metta, > > James 45861 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Re: Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo and DSG friends - It is fine with me how people choose to follow the Buddha's Teachings as long as they don't rewrite the Teachings to fit their life styles, or claim that certain suttas about the Holy-life practices is incorrect. > Htoo: > In forest, there are many selves who have been meditating. Each self is trying to develop panna. > > At the same time, there are many selves, who themselves > believe that they are not selves but anatta while sitting in >restaurants, driving a car carrying a flock of children to and from > school, swimming in a pool, shopping at a supermarket and using >credit cards. > T: The fact of the matter that they want to hold on to their families, social status and hard-earned sensual objects indicates clearly that both lobha and the self view are very strong. Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, Sarah, and DSG members, > (snipped). > > I think this is 'The Main Reason' that DSG old members are very > reluctant to do 'sitting meditation'. They do not want to control > dhamma. When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance of realization. 45862 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (411) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Htoo, Hi Htoo, My mistake. I thought the phrases had the word "and" instead of "or". However, it would still be nice to have some further explanation of these phrases since they are the enemies of the first jhana. I don't get the impression that you have come up with this information on your own, so where did you get this information? Are there more details of these phrases in the original source? Metta, James -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear James, The first reply already answered what is my sources. When jhaana is to reach or to access, one has to cultivate mental activities on selected cultivational object or meditational object. Normally mind does not stand still. It is moving about. When one can start to sense the mind he or she will clearly see his or her mind. But he or she will not be able to see the mind all the time. But at least better understanding on mind is there in their mind. a) All other activities are temporarily stopped and pure mental activities start. The mind goes to the meditational object. This happen because there is a mental associate or mental factor called 'initial application', who applies the mind to the object of meditation. But this mental factor also applies the mind to other objects apart from meditational object. At a time the mind may be at sensuous object. As soon as this is recognised then another mind arise and meditational object is applied again. The mind does not stand still but it comes and goes. When it goes away from the object of meditation, it may be going to sensuous objects. This sight is beautiful. This colour is beautiful. This sound is sweet. This smell is pleasant. This taste is pleasurable. This touch is attractable. This thoughts is pleasurable. And there may be many other connected thoughts. These are sensuous thoughts. These thoughts are enemies of jhaana. Because they push the mind away from jhaana object and they attract the mind to sensuous objects. This recognition is not that easy. Because one has to know that such and such mind is not good. Sometimes the mind departs from the meditational object and at a time it leads to unfavourable areas where unpleasant thoughts are provoked and then aversion arises. These aversive thoughts such are desire to destroy others' fame, properties, health, friends etc etc. These thoughts of aversion are also enemies of jhaana. This recognition is also not that easy. Because there are subtle aversion and if they are not recognised then more aggressive aversion like fury arises and it already destroyed jhaana. There are 3rd enemies in jhaana matter. They are slothed thinking and torpored thinking. This means that thinkings are not that fresh and active and thinkings or the mind frequently fall from the object of meditation because of sloth and torpor. So slothed thinkings and torpored thinkings are enemies of jhaana. There are 4th enemies of jhaana. They are wandering thoughts and worrying thoughts. The thoughts may not be sensuous thinkings. But they do not stay on the object of meditation and instead they are wandering here and there. Sensuous thinkings as stated above are mainly kaama raaga or sexual desire and their related thoughts. Wandering thoughts are not of sexual desire and related thoughts but other thinking activities. By the same token, worrying thoughts are not aversive thoughts mentioned above. Aversive thoughts are much much more disturbing and hurting while worrying thoughts smoulders the mind and it causes the mind not to stay on the meditational object. The 5th enemies to jhaana is suspicious thoughts. These suspicious thoughts are thinking acitivities that start to disbelieve the current practise of supprression of akusala so that the mind can become calm and still. As these thoughts arise, the original thinking acivities or mind activities are not at meditational object any longer. So there are 5 enemies of jhaana. They are 1. sexual thoughts (sensuous thinking or thoughts) 2. aversive thoughts (destructive thoughts) 3. sloth and torpored thoughts 4. wandering-worrying thoughts 5. suspicious thoughts As soon as these thoughts arise, the mind is agitated and and it is no more at the object of meditation. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45863 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo and DSG friends - > > It is fine with me how people choose to follow the Buddha's Teachings > as long as they don't rewrite the Teachings to fit their life styles, or claim > that certain suttas about the Holy-life practices is incorrect. > > > Htoo: > > In forest, there are many selves who have been meditating. Each self > is trying to develop panna. > > > > At the same time, there are many selves, who themselves > > believe that they are not selves but anatta while sitting in >restaurants, > driving a car carrying a flock of children to and from > school, swimming > in a pool, shopping at a supermarket and using >credit cards. > > > > T: The fact of the matter that they want to hold on to their families, social > status and hard-earned sensual objects indicates clearly that both > lobha and the self view are very strong. > > > Respectfully, > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. Actually 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati' already includes elimination of self-view. Whenever there is self-view there always is lobha or attachment. You may know 'Pothila Thera'. He was an elder. He had been taught well and he knew all Dhamma. I think he would be much much more knowledgeable and would have much more understanding on Dhamma than any member of DSG. Still The Buddha said 'Tuccha' 'Tuccha' 'Tuccha' 'The Vain' 'The Vain' 'The Vain'. The thera Pothila became shameful and he approached Sariputta thera and asked for practical instructions. As he knew everything, his asking had an extra meaning. Sariputta transferred him to lesser thera and that thera again transferred to lesser one and finally 7 year-old samanera was asked for practical instructions. The samanera was an arahat. He did not give the instructions straight away. Pothila thera had to fulfil the necessary jobs before he could be instructed by that 7 year-old samanera. At a time, the samanera instructed him and as he diligently practised according to 'the instruction of the samanera' even in the presence of Live Buddha, Pothila became an arahat soon. By the same token, Ananda was one who knew everything as The Buddha preached. He was not a permanent attendant before The Buddha became old. But when he was appointed as 'permanent attendant of The Live Buddha' he asked The Buddha as a promise that The Buddha must re- preach any teachings, which had been preached in the absence of him and this include those teachings before he joined the order of the Sangha. venerable Ananda had to practise diligently especially near the first Buddhists Council. Understanding is first, yes. Ananda even murmured that 'Bhagava, Dependent Origination is clear'. The Buddha said 'Don't say so Ananda'. Ananda did have understanding. But his self was trying to develop arahatta magga nana and finally he attained arahatta magga just before the start of 1st Buddhists Council. 'Chandaa vato kicca kim naaman na sijjhati?' 'Sijjhatii'ti'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45864 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 21, 2005 5:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five Generations lbidd2 Hi Lisa, Nice bit of scribbling. Here's a comment: Lisa: "I don't know if this is true, maybe it is my imagination, but I found that knowing the subtle sensations that come along with metta or compassion seem to be like water and food for these subtle patterns and help them grow. It's the same with the negative things like anger, frustration and hatred. If I focus on these patterns they seem to get stronger and bigger." Larry: Maybe two things going on, more attention to detail brings out a richer experience and maybe you are unintentionally sustaining and expanding these emotions in order to investigate them. I don't see a problem either way, do you, except maybe a little attachment to the process. Larry 45865 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 6:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Five Generations foamflowers On Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 07:47 PM, LBIDD@... wrote: Hi Lisa, Nice bit of scribbling. Here's a comment: Lisa: "I don't know if this is true, maybe it is my imagination, but I found that knowing the subtle sensations that come along with metta or compassion seem to be like water and food for these subtle patterns and help them grow. It's the same with the negative things like anger, frustration and hatred. If I focus on these patterns they seem to get stronger and bigger." Larry: Maybe two things going on, more attention to detail brings out a richer experience and maybe you are unintentionally sustaining and expanding these emotions in order to investigate them. I don't see a problem either way, do you, except maybe a little attachment to the process. Larry [lisah] Thank you Larry for the feedback, I think when I understand the process a bit more it will be easier for me to detach from it. I find it hard to let go of what I don't know or understand very well on an intellectual level and also an experiential level. I have found the two ways of knowing go together, theory and practice. Although if something burns my hand it's very easy to let go of it without a thought! But if I don't understand why I picked up that burning thing I may burn my hand again and again until I can recognize what is cool and what burns on an intellectual level. Also I found that there is a habit to picking up hurtful things even though on an intellectual level I understand I shouldn't do this. It's those deeply buried patterns that are a real bother, I think it takes two kinds of knowing plus a very still mind to dig them out or maybe it's letting them go? Jhana does this as well as vipassana? In Abhidhamma system there is no control so can you dig out these deeply buried habits of reaction? Or must they be worn away through seeing each moment as it is through countless life times? With Metta, Lisa With Metta, Lisa 45866 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five Generations lbidd2 Hi Lisa, Lisa: "In Abhidhamma system there is no control so can you dig out these deeply buried habits of reaction? Or must they be worn away through seeing each moment as it is through countless life times?" Larry: I think once a habit is recognized as a habit, it's finished. But a habit is kind of a second level of organization from a moment. You have to step back a step or two to see one. In abhidhamma study you can understand, conceptually, every possible moment, or formation of moments, that could arise in exhausting detail and then experiential understanding arises as it may. This path is more one of accumulation of teachings rather than working on oneself, but for it to be meaningful you have to see the reality in the blur of experience. I wonder if you could explain a little what you mean by "subtle sensations" below: Lisa: "Noting the subtle sensations that also come along with the presents [presence?] of something like metta helps me stay steady and deal with issue[s] right now rather than holding to[o] tightly or running away." Larry: If you are talking about the abhidhamma category of 'bodily feeling' I would be interested in what you have heard about that and how it differs from consciousness of the hardness, or earth, rupa. That one's a puzzle for me. If you're talking about something else, that would be even more interesting. Larry 45867 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:37pm Subject: Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. sukinderpal Hi Nina, Tep, Normally I would skip points like these, not wanting to rack by brains over them. So I hope you will understand if I didn't quite understand K. Sujin's answer. But I will do my best. First when I told her about your question, her immediate reaction was that, when anapanasati is discussed in the commentaries, it is usually from the view point of both samatha and vipassana. As it is clear that while in jhana, the only object must be the breath nimita alone, and so if there is awareness of piti, then it must be due to moving out of jhana and thus a reference to satipatthana. I then read your letter to her and explained that the Vis. reference did not seem to point to moments of satipatthana. She then gave the example of `being angry at someone' and asked if at that time one was aware both of the object as well as the anger itself? I argued that this may be due to the citta moving so fast between objects and that during jhana the mind must be `absorbed' on to a single object, so it was unlikely that there would be awareness of piti as well. She then gave the example of tasting, knowing both the taste and the awareness that there is `something' there and pointed to the mode of "knowing" of "citta" rather than `sati' (I think this is what she was trying to get across, but I am not sure). While I was trying to wrap my mind around this idea, it occurred to me that if indeed it was not possible to be aware of anything else while in jhana, then how could development of jhana from lower levels to higher take place? After all, the practitioner has to know the different factors and to drop one of them during each step, no? K. Sujin then compared my initial doubt with the one that sates to the effect that, "how can one citta know another citta, when the former has already fallen away"? She said that I was caught up in the `idea' of one citta arising and having one object at a time. I hope this helps and you will understand it, even though I am not sure I myself did well enough. Metta, Sukin -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nina Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 2:03 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. Hi Tep and Sukin, Thanks Tep for your post on breathing. I go very, very slowly through the Thai co, it is very long. Sukin, I listen every day to MP3 on anapanasati and I have a question. 45868 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:38pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Hi Matheesha (and Htoo), I was happy to see your name on the list. I have to try to answer this quickly before my children come down. You said: I am interested in your idea of intention being problematic. I am trying to get a picture of what type of practice you are doing. You say that it is simply being aware of dhammas as they arise? How often would you say that this happens? Every few minutes, every few hours? Do you devote time for this to happen, or do you just let it happen right through the day? ------------------------------------------- Sukinder: As you know intention arises with every citta and has the function of "coordinating" associated states. In the case of kusala and akusala it has the added function of "willing". It has the strength to condition verbal and bodily acts, and through all three doorways it is that which brings about results in the form of vipaka. But intention is only so good as the roots it is associated with. Having the idea of doing good does not mean that good is being done. It may be after all rooted in lobha, dosa or moha. All our thoughts are conditioned and if there is no satipatthana and if it is not a moment of dana, sila or samatha bhavana, then we can be sure that it must be akusala, particularly, lobha. A moment of satipatthana would be accompanied by detachment, certainly not any idea about `wanting' to develop kusala or more sati. Panna is the leader in development of the eightfold path, and panna "knows" and detaches. There is no `one' "to be aware of dhammas as they arise", either sati arises or it doesn't. Just as lobha arises on the mere perception of something beautiful and not by `willing', so too sati when it does arise does so by conditions beyond control. The idea of `doing' something to develop sati goes against this understanding about the conditioned nature of realities. We can only appreciate, intellectually at first, the idea about the factors to sotapatti, i.e. association with the wise, hearing the correct dhamma, reflecting on it and applying it. In all this however, it is not about `intending', but about `understanding'. And we grow to understand better the implication of this and to see why the Buddha would not ask us to "do" anything. "How often does the practice happen?" There is no counting or any undue concern, because this would more likely be motivated by `self' again. It may not even happen at all for days, but there will be reflecting on the dhamma in the right way more and more often. The intellectual appreciation of the above four factors, would condition to whatever extent, association with the wise, as I do here on DSG, ;-) and likewise the other factors, hearing, considering and applying. I think we need to know and accept our level of understanding. That we do have difficulty understanding even on the intellectual level most of what the Buddha has taught. It may or may not even be any real understanding which sees the difference between theory and practice; even non-Buddhists can see this difference. But what follows is not that simple. This is what makes Dhamma special and hard to see. On seeing this difference, we jump on to the idea of `doing' something about it, unaware that `ditthi' has already worked its way to taking us the wrong way. The Christian and Muslim will go about their way of doing things and the Buddhist would his. Both don't realize that these are motivated by `self' and whatever `self' does; it is going to bring results as per the `view' held. So we really need to correct our views on the intellectual level. And this would seem ironic, that in the process of doing this, more and more we understand that the `practice' is not about `doing', but about `understanding' *this* moment better. And what we will see is that, the idea of `doing' arises precisely because we are still not very firm on the level of `intellectual understanding' to begin with. I give the example of some meditation groups, who have proliferated their idea about theory and practice to the point of discouraging the student from reading even the Tipitaka. This shows me that the initial motivation was rooted in `wrong view'. There is no point in time in our development towards the final goal, that any depreciation of the Buddha's words can be `right'. We must be very careful about this point. "Do I devote time to such a practice?" Again there is no "I" to do anything. In a day, there may be very little sati, in fact more often than not, there may be so much akusala, that there is sometimes, regret. This then sometimes gives rise to the thought about `doing something' to be rid of all this akusala. But really, what can be done? There *is no control over dhammas. We can't make pariyatti arise, likewise how can we patipatti? And the kilesas will work their way regardless of our wishes. It was you I think, who recently brought up the question of using `lobha' to eradicate `lobha'. I think the correct interpretation of this is that only "through understanding `lobha', can lobha be finally eradicated". So I think we should not fear being in situations where akusala might arise, because how else would there be any development of understanding, if the dhammas do not arise? How can we know our kilesas, if we are always hiding under the cover of `things to do' in a better place and time? Also I think we should not be discouraged by any lack of patipatti. We should accept this as being for want of better accumulated understanding. Certainly we should not fall prey to desire and wrong view and thus follow any practice without reflection. Wrong pariyatti will condition wrong patipatti. Let us be patient and be satisfied with any little understanding we have. If indeed this understanding is correct, it will not deny the importance of patipatti. But perhaps instead of then trying to "catch" realities, what is required of us is patience, courage and good cheer. Happy Wesak Day to you and all. (-: Metta, Sukinder 45869 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:39pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James - > > Touch is always in the foreground, while the yogi is aware of the in-breath > and out-breath at the same time. For example, when he breaths in, his > consciousness does not follow the breathing inward; the yogi's > cognizance stays with the touch point ("the sign"). Yet, he is fully aware that > he is breathing in and the breathing is long or short. After his concentration > is better developed, he will also be able to know the beginning, the > middle and the end of the breath, while his cognizance is not distracted > from the sign. Similarly, the yogi is fully aware of out-breaths while > establishing his concentration in the front (at the sign).His keen awareness > is, therefore, simultaneously over the three things: the sign, in-breath, and > out-breath. > > Such balancing act is explained in the Vuddhimagga as follows: > > Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object > Of a single consciousness; > By one who knows not these three things > Development is not obtained. > Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object > Of a single consciousness; > By one who does know these three things > Development can be obtained. VM, VIII,201. > > > I hope my explanation above makes sense. If it is not yet clear, please tell. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ====== Yes, this makes things much more clear, especially the quote from Vuddhimagga. This is very valuable information to know. Thaks a lot! Metta, James 45870 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 8:47pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (411) buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > So there are 5 enemies of jhaana. They are > > 1. sexual thoughts (sensuous thinking or thoughts) > 2. aversive thoughts (destructive thoughts) > 3. sloth and torpored thoughts > 4. wandering-worrying thoughts > 5. suspicious thoughts > > As soon as these thoughts arise, the mind is agitated and and it is > no > more at the object of meditation. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Very nice explanation. Thank you for your efforts. Metta, James 45871 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 10:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Five Generations foamflowers On Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 10:00 PM, LBIDD@... wrote: [Larry] I wonder if you could explain a little what you mean by "subtle sensations" below: Lisa: "Noting the subtle sensations that also come along with the presents [presence?] of something like metta helps me stay steady and deal with issue[s] right now rather than holding to[o] tightly or running away." [[sorry for the sloppy grammar and spelling,a bad habit I am trying to fix through practice and study]] [lisa] Subtle to me means soft, light, or fine, very hard to note because it is fine like spider webs or like silk cloth drawn against your skin. Compare a hammer hitting your thumb instead of the nail (anger or hatred) verses before breath goes away the touch of it on the nostrils is like (loving kindness). That is what it feels like to me when anger or loving kindness is present. Also in meditation there was pain and terror linked together, I noticed this in daily life as well. The pain will come up in certain parts of the body different kinds of fear or paranoia came up too. It doesn't seem to me that compassion, metta, tolerance, patience, the virtues are actual thoughts. I don't know exactly what they are but when they are present there is also very fine sensations are with them. This may be my imagination but when I am full of loving kindness there seems to be a lot of sensation on the top of the head almost like the pressure of a hat. There is usually very little stuff going on in my head when this happens. When there 'was' extreme pain in meditation and also daily life there is also corresponding mental events like different levels of fear, agitation, paranoia, doubt and so on. I think harsh sensation triggers the mental events not just pain like physical pleasure when eating good food, being with people you like and seeing lovely things. When I talk of sensation I do mean hard, soft, cold, hot, wet, dry, movement, solid, and so on. It's very difficult to note the finer sensations in daily life that's why I think retreat is important. It was much easier for me to see subtle sensations again and again at retreat and also sit through the terror and pain at retreat. Then I could go home and face my pain and terror or find those very subtle sensations with more confidence. Now I am learning to put names to these things with your help, thank you. Larry: If you are talking about the abhidhamma category of 'bodily feeling' I would be interested in what you have heard about that and how it differs from consciousness of the hardness, or earth, rupa. That one's a puzzle for me. If you're talking about something else, that would be even more interesting. Larry Rupa form, figure, appearance, principle of form, etc Nama name. -- (likhi: he wrote her name). -- naman karoti to give a name -- naman ganhati to call by name, to enumerate-- Specified. nama as metaphysical term is opposed to rupa, & comprises the 4 immaterial factors of an individual (arupino khandha, viz. vedana sanna sankhara vinnana; see khandha II. Ba). These as the noetic principle combd with the material principle make up the individual as it is distinguished by "name & body" from other individuals. Thus namarupa= individuality, individual being. These two are inseparable (annamannupanissita ete dhamma, ekato va uppajjanti Miln [lisa] Larry, that is an area I need to investigate in the Abhidhamma system and I am not sure what the something else could be, I might know or not know but can't tell you because I don't have the ability to put it into words. I'm aware I don't like this sensation, or I do like it and I watch the memories, emotions or thoughts that come up and then a reaction to move away from pain or stay and play with what is lovely (subtle sensations) comes up. ==>The subtle is not pleasure from eating good food, or touching someone I love like my family, or wearing beautiful clothes or seeing a beautiful object like a flower.<===Thoughts come up from this hardness that hurts, or softness that pleases, maybe past memories, intrusive thoughts roll in and out from the past or doubts about the future and the pain is multiplied through this extra layer of reaction and reaction to reaction and the pain grows or what is good and beautiful is lost because focus becomes harsh and clingy and this goes on and on and on, and there is simply no peace to be found. Keeping focus softly almost not looking at the subtle sensations and' what comes up in the mind' from these sensations is difficult for me to understand. It's hard for me to figure out what comes first...when the lights came up and grew bigger and bigger until there was nothing left but light there was no very subtle sensations or harsh sensations at all but after they left there was a huge amount of subtle sensations or I guess you could call it bliss or extacy and it felt like the body was to small to contain it all, thank goodness it passed each time that happened or I don't know if I could of functioned at all with that amount of lovely sensations....lol. Although the good sensations were subtle they were so nice it was very hard to stay balanced, there was simply nothing to compare it too and I actually didn't want that to happen again it was to far out of my normal experience. Of course I had no control of those events so they happened when they wanted to and eventually over a couple of years retreats faded away. Of course this fancy stuff took place years ago and if I understand the Abhidhamma system I was just playing with fabrications that is my imagination or it could of been something else but that really isn't important to me. Now I just pay attention to what's going on inside of me and outside of me and try and stay balanced through the day and do my meditation (anapanasati, vipassana and metta) when I have time and I can do that sitting, walking or laying down. I will go to an old student Satipatthana retreat for ten days this fall, I usually serve at these retreats, this time I will sit for eight days and also study the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. I don't think I answered you questions...lol but with study and work I will use the pali words correctly and we can talk easier. With Metta, Lisa 45872 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Vesak 2005 Short-Cuts ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Short-Cuts to Happiness: Know that Helping Others helps Yourself! Know that Harmlessness is the prime Protection! Know that Meditation is the Way to Calmed Bliss! Know that Dhamma Study is the Way to Certainty! Know that the Noble 8-fold Way makes Deathless! Remember: Today Buddha awakened by perfect Enlightenment! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45873 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: Five Generations kelvin_lwin Send IM Send Email Hi Lisa, Vism XX, 105 Now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight arise in him. For imperfections of insight do not arise either in a noble disciple who has reached penetration [of the truths] or in persons erring in virtue, neglectful of their meditation subject and idlers. They arise only in a clansman who keeps to the right course, devotes himself continuously [to his meditation subject] and is a beginner of insight. But what are these ten imperfections? They are: (1) illumination, (2) knowledge, (3) rapturous happiness, (4) tranquillity, (5) bliss (pleasure), (6) resolution, (7) exertion, (8) assurance, (9) equanimity and (10) attachment. How do you recognize subtle sensations? Are they always the same type/kind? Do you judge your practice by the type of sensations? Can you always find the sensations whenever there's a quiet moment? I've been following your threads and the thing to remember is Goenkaji's model is a simple one. It's consistent with abhidhamma model however. Whenever I read your posts, I can almost recite the ten day discourse material. I think you'll find the satipatthana discourses to be quite interesting too if you haven't heard them already. Which center will you be doing it at? - kel 45874 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Thanks for your reply. :-) I will check beforehand. And I will also >check when leaving this world. What to check? > >1. where am I going? >2. where am I not going? >3. am I going anywhere? >4. is there somewhere that I am going to? >5. lastly is there someone who is going to go somewhere? :-) > > ;-)) I have a suggestion. If you move No. 5 up to No. 1, then you won't have to bother with figuring out the answers to Nos. 1-4 ;-)). Jon 45875 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >I understand you and Sarah with regard to 'formal sitting meditation'. >And I also sense right wish of those who want to fortify the practice. > >Those who are reluctant to do meditation practice because of >inadvertant fear of wrong practition will regret later. > I would put it somewhat differently ;-)) For a start, I would be interested to know what you see as the exact role of 'formal sitting meditation' in the development of samatha and vipassana. Is it your understanding that 'formal sitting meditation' is the whole of samatha and vipassana bhavana, or do you think there can be the development of samatha and bhavana outside formal sitting meditation? If the latter, then wouldn't we be better off talking about the development of samatha and vipassana, rather than about formal sitting meditation? As regards inadvertent wrong practice, this is bound to occur from time to time, since there is still much accumulated wrong view. However, wrong view will be gradually overcome by right view (panna of the mundane path, or patipatti) as that is developed little by little (drop by drop, as Phil would say). As I understand it, moments of right view/mundane insight/patipatti are the key. These may occur as a result of useful reflection on what has been heard and correctly understood (pariyatti), although it is in the nature of things that there is no knowing when, or of what object, moments of insight will occur. >It is good to do before we vanish from this world. The older we are >the weaker we are and the less physical support from our body. > >Learning goes through trials and errors. > Yes, we learn through trial and error. That is a fact of life. But it is not an argument in favour of making more errors ;-)) Jon 45876 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >The earlier story of my walking >meditation experience is a "meditation while walking", in which the >mindfulness and the thorough comprehension (sampajanna) are on >the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, standing and turning back). > Yes, I understand what you are saying. However, if 'walking meditation' is really an aspect of "body in the body", wouldn't it be truer to the teachings to think and talk about "body in the body" (a term from the suttas) rather than "walking meditation" (a term not found in the suttas or ancient commentaries). As I see it, kayanupasana is much more than 'body in the body while walking', and the suttas dealing with kayanupassana do not give particular emphasis to walking, as opposed to the other bodily postures, as far as I know. Jon 45877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. nilovg Hi Sukin and Tep, Sukin, would you please thank Kh Sujin for her very clear explanation. I did not suggest that the Vis. reference did not seem to point to moments of satipatthana, but I only quoted the samatha part: piiti with the object. Tep, also the first jhana is referred to. When jhanacitta has just fallen away, the yogavacara should and can consider the jhanafactors that are with the jhanacitta. They have just fallen away and their characteristics can appear to the citta with sati sampajañña. When he is very skilful, he can attain higher stages of jhana. I like it that Kh Sujin repeats: when anapanasati is being developed, how it can be of great profit, of great fruit? By being aware of breath and seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, etc. Thus, seeing anattaa. I think we should continue to keep this in mind. Sukin, just a remark below. op 22-05-2005 05:37 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@...: ...She then gave > the example of tasting, knowing both the taste and the awareness that > there is `something' there and pointed to the mode of "knowing" > of "citta" rather than `sati' (I think this is what she was trying to get > across, but I am not sure). ------------ N: This example shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. it seems knowing what the taste is occurs at the same time as tasting the flavour. In the same way, the yogavacara experiences with absorption the meditation subject, and immediately realizes after that jhanafactors like piiti. ------- K. Sujin then compared > my initial doubt with the one that sates to the effect that, "how can one > citta know another citta, when the former has already fallen away"? She > said that I was caught up in the `idea' of one citta arising and having > one object at a time. --------- N: An idea does not help. We can check realities. Seeing has just fallen away, but it is still present, its characteristic appears and it can be object of awareness. If anything is not clear, please insist. Nina. 45878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. nilovg Hi Mike and Htoo, op 21-05-2005 20:45 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: Somehow I'd got the idea that, for each stage, the path, then > the fruit each arose for only one moment and then were gone for good. Is > this 'agian and again' attainment a kind of reviewing, or...? ------- N: More than reviewing. It needs preparation, a special kind of practice, described by the Vis., but only jhana-labhii can do this. We read in the Vis. that all ariyans can attain phala-samaapatti, but this means: provided they have developed jhana. Thus not sukkha vipassaka. (Htoo: sukka is white, sukkha is dry.) In my answer to Htoo, I only spoke about anagamis and arahats, because his Q. dealt with them. I quote from my Thai study about the Vis. passage about all ariyans can do this. We have to understand this in the right context. We have to distinguish between jhåana-samåapatti and phala-samaapatti. Nina. 45879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of Message # 27439/ Breathing Meditation nilovg Hi Tep, It is difficult to understand all these terms like a freed mind. Citta is never without mental formations, but freedom means no clinging to them. That is realized through vipassana. As to your Q. about walking meditation, etc., I just think that this is not listed among the kammatthana, but the four Great Elements are. I find it not clear to compare sati in both cases, walking, having sati in front, and breathing. But I think discussing this further distracts from anapanasati. I find many points and Q. in this list interesting, but I cannot go into all, although I would like to. I appreciate Htoo's way of answering Q. about piiti. I hope people will not mind, but I cannot keep up the tempo. Lodewijk protests when I am too long at the computer, he is worried now. My physical limitations, you know. Nina. op 26-04-2005 05:07 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep : I think the end result of step [VIII] is a "freed mind" --it is free > from > mental formations (citta-sankhara) -- and this freed mind is the basis of > the third tetrad, the cittanupassana satipatthana. I am not sure whether > this mind that is unaffected by cetasikas (sankhara ) is the same of citta > in the fourth jhana or not. 45880 From: nina Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:31am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 159. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch.XIV, 159. Intro. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals with the cetasikas that accompany akusala cittas. First of all there are eight akusala cittas rooted in lobha, attachment. They are: 1)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted 2)accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, prompted 3)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted 4)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted 5)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted 7)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted ***** The Vis. deals first with the cetasikas accompanying the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment: accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wrong view, unprompted. ****** Seven Œuniversals¹ accompany each citta, but here, feeling and saññaa are not mentioned since only the cetasikas included in sa²nkhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, are enumerated here. Thus, in this context are mentioned: the five universals of contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention, and the latter is included among the Œor-what-ever-states¹. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. The last two are included among the Œor-what-ever-states¹. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) which is here included in the Œor-what-ever-states¹. Furthermore, the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is accompanied by attachment, lobha, and wrong view, di.t.thi. Thus, in this context, seventeen cetasikas are mentioned. The Œor-what-ever-states¹, (ye-vaa-pana-ka) are, as we have seen, a commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase: 'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1) The list of the Dhammasangani is not exhaustive. Among the cetasikas accompanying mahaa-kusala citta, there are four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors. These are: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara), evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). In the case of the first type of akusala citta rooted in lobha, there are zeal, resolution, attention, but instead of evenmindedness there is restlessness (uddhacca). ***** Text Vis.: II. (22) As regards the 'unprofitable', there are firstly seventeen associated with the first unprofitable consciousness rooted in greed (22), that is to say, thirteen constant given in the texts as such and four or-what-ever-states. Herein, the thirteen given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), happiness (v), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), (xxxvii) consciencelessness, (xxxviii) shamelessness, (xxxix) greed, (xl) delusion, (xli) wrong view. The four or-what-ever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), (xlii) agitation, attention (xxx). ****** Conclusion: When we see this list of akusala cetasikas, we should remember that they are not merely textbook terms, but that they are realities occurring in daily life. Some of these cetasikas also accompany kusala citta, but, when they accompany akusala citta they are altogether different. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition one another by way of conascence-condition and by way of mutuality-condition. As we have seen, in the case of the sobhana cetasikas, saddhaa, confidence, conditions all accompanying dhammas to be pure. The kusala citta and cetasikas are accompanied by sati that is non-forgetful of kusala, alert for kusala. The cetasikas of calm, lightness, wieldiness etc. cause the kusala citta and cetasikas to be light, pliable and competent in the performing of kusala. The universals that accompany kusala citta also accompany akusala citta, but in that case they have different qualities. The akusala citta and cetasikas are all deluded by the darkness of moha, they are all poisoned by shamelessness and recklessness. They lack sati, they are forgetful of kusala. They are impure, they lack saddha. Energy or effort is wrong effort, whatever it undertakes, it does not lead to what is good and wholesome. The cetasikas that accompany akusala citta rooted in lobha arise just for a moment when there are conditions for them and then they fall away. We should remember that they are cetasikas, elements that do not belong to a self. We cannot control them, but understanding of them can be developed. ***** Nina. 45881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo nilovg Hi Matheesha, I find these points very good. op 21-05-2005 00:30 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Hi Sukinder, > > I am trying to get a picture of what type of practice you are doing. > You say that it is simply being aware of dhammas as they arise? How > often would you say that this happens? Every few minutes, every few > hours? Do you devote time for this to happen, or do you just let it > happen right through the day? -------- N: We know that sati cannot be forced but that there are the right conditions to be cultivated. Sukin explained so well pariyatti, it is more than just theoretical understanding, it is considering the dhamma appearing now. Also all paramis are important condiitons for the development of understanding. We have to have the right balance as Lodewijk likes to stress: not forcing sati, and on the other hand not being slack. Remember the Soma sutta, not being overstrung. When we stress one point we are always in danger losing sight of the other factors. I used to think: O well, just a moment of sati now and then is enough. I just read to Lodewijk a passage from my Vipassana Letters about this subject and it impressed me very much. It is a dialogue between Sarah and Kh Sujin: Mattheesha, I got a little shock when reading: it is not enough. A wholesome shock. Nina. 45882 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Jon: Samatha and vipassana are forms of kusala that occur through the >mind-door (only), that is to say, that do not include any element of >action through speech or body. > >James: Now you are suggesting that samatha and vipassana cannot occur in relation to the body. ... I know that the Buddha taught that nama and >rupa are inseparable in the sensual realms. > A clarification. I was not suggesting that 'samatha and vipassana cannot occur in relation to the body'. The point is simply that samatha and vipassana do not necessarily involve any action through body an speech. For example, while dana refers to the wholesome mental state that accompanies (usually) bodily action of some kind, metta is a wholesome mental state that may arise independently of any bodily or verbal action. (The point that that nama and rupa are mutually dependent in the sensual realms, while true, is a separate matter.) >Jon: For example, if there is metta now, or reflection on a point of >dhamma, and it is accompanied by panna that knows the kusala >(tranquil) quality of the moment, that is samatha bhavana. ... > >Jon: If there occurs spontaneously a level of attention to the >presently arising visible object or sound, or attachment or aversion, >or any other dhamma, so that there is the direct experience of that >dhamma, that is mundane insight. > >James: Now, here you are saying that any form of attention to rupa is >"mundane insight"-which is, of course, not that good compared to >supramundane insight (the ultimate goal). > I was trying to show that mundane insight, if it occurs, is a form of direct attention to nama or rupa, in other words, that there is no particular action through body or speech needed for its accomplishment. The significance of this is that it may occur regardless of the present bodily disposition. >James: Oh, okay, let's just all give up the farm! According to you >Jon, it isn't the practice or the lifestyle which leads to kusala >states, it is the previous accumulations. Never mind that the Buddha >gave up the householder life and meditated under the Bodhi tree to >achieve enlightenment, because he had all the proper accumulations he >could have just stayed in his palace and done the same thing in the >arms of his concubines. ;-) > Everyone has accumulations for the different kinds of kusala (including samatha and vipassana) and, as well, accumulations for leading a particular kind of lifestyle. There is no necessary coincidence between the two, as I think a reading of the suttas shows. Even among monks, there were city dwellers and forest dwellers, two quite different lifestyles. >James: Nothing but pandering to the group. Tell them all that they >have no choices or control, and then suggest that everything may still >turn out for the best in the end. Oh, how sweet. > Now that my strategy has been exposed, I'll have to develop another one ;-)) >Jon: As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the >teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, >and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as >explained by the adze handle simile. > >James: In other words, just study the teachings, don't do anything >else `special', and maybe everything will turn out okay over time. >Possibly, but that isn't the Noble Eightfold Path. > I agree that just studying the teachings is not the Noble Eightfold Path. However, hearing the teachings explained in detail and in different ways, considering the teachings, and relating what has been considered to the present moment is an indispensable part of the development of insight. In the words of the Kitagiri Sutta (M.70) there needs to be, in addition to hearing the Dhamma correctly explained, examining of the meaning of what has been heard, the gaining of a reflective acceptance of the teachings, the application of will, scrutiny, and striving. But the catch is that none of these things is a technique or set of instructions to be followed (if only that were so!). The teachings are deep and difficult to grasp, and confirmation of the correct grasp of the teachings does not come immediately but over a period of time (the adze handle simile). This requires confidence, patience and resolve. Jon 45883 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon: As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the >teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, >and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as >explained by the adze handle simile. > >Tep: Jon, it depends very much on what you mean by "earnest interest >in the teachings" and how you are converting that into real actions. > I think the idea that there has to be some kind of 'real action' can be a constraining one, because it implies that awareness/insight is less likely to arise at times that 'real action' is not being pursued (and that would be the major part of the day). I think we agree that the goal is insight into, or understanding of, the true nature of dhammas. Now understanding is, by its nature, something that develops gradually from a proper observation of or reflection on the thing(s) to be understood. It is not dependent on 'real action' of any kind, as far as I can see (although it does of course need the appropriate factors to be present). I would say there is a direct connection between an 'earnest interest in the teachings' and the arising of a moment of insight. Consider the following from the Kitagiri Sutta MN 70 (MLDB, Nanamoli/Bodhi trans): <> To me this suggests a chain of factors but without there being anything in the nature of 'real action' required. Jon 45884 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 22, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Matheesha Thanks for coming in on this thread. Sorry for not being able to reply sooner. matheesha wrote: >If you were to sit down and with a mind suffused with one-pointdness >of a jhana, we to maintain watch the arising and passing away of the 5 >aggregates, insight would arise, that there is no self, because >everything we ever thought of as self would be fully explored and >there would be nothing permanent to be considered as self. The person who started doing this would have had a self view. Now he doesnt. > To my understanding, the 'skills' of samatha and vipassana are separate skills, each with its own set of conditions that must be fulfilled. For example, a person who has not heard the teachings in their present lifetime is not precluded from developing samatha to the level of jhana, but would not be capable of the merest instant of insight (vipassana) in that lifetime. The reason for this is that while both samatha and vipassana are accompanied by panna, the panna of samatha does not, and cannot, directly know the true nature of he presently arising dhamma; it can only know that the consciousness is kusala or aksuala, or when the various jhana factors are present, etc. The attainment of jhana, in and of itself, has no direct bearing on the likelihood of insight arising. That is to say, on the one hand, if insight has not previously been developed, attaining jhana is not going to make it more likely to occur. And on the other hand, if the teachings have been understood, and insight has already been developed, in the present lifetime, jhana is not needed for its further arising. Sorry not to be more 'agreeable' on our first exchange; I hope it won't be the end of our dialogue ;-)) I know you have a busy life and may not be able to get back for a while. Jon 45885 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha philofillet Hi Htoo > When pariyatti is wrong then patipatti is wrong and there is no > pativedha. When an arrow is released from a bow and it goes not to > the target, the destination will be far from the target. Very well said, Htoo! This is why wise people put a lot of emphasis on sorting out right understanding at the beginning in a strict way so the middle and end can be fruitful. This takes patience, because there is a tendency for people to want to get right at practice, especially by being too literal in their interpretation of suttas. I think Abhidhamma helps us here. > When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance > of realization. Well. I think dhamma *can't* be controlled, but when there is the delusion that they can be, there is less appreciation of the beautiful learning possibilities in the fluidity of every moment, I think. Thanks for this, Htoo. Metta, Phil 45886 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 3:11am Subject: Refreshing the citta (WasRe: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 183 - Enthusiasm/piiti (a) philofillet Hi Nina and all I've been interested in piiti recently, though it has taken me a long time to get around to asking my question. > When we think of enthusiasm we presume that it is always > kusala. We praise people who are enthusiastic. However, when > we study the Abhidhamma we learn that enthusiasm is not always > kusala, that it arises also with akusala cittas. There are many > more akusala cittas in our life than kusala cittas and thus, when > there is enthusiasm it is more often akusala than kusala. By the way, today I was listening to Kh Sujin and others talking about mana. Kh Sujin said that we think there is a lot of mana, but there is much more than we think. Much, much more. Sarah added that we are only aware of the tip of the iceberg when it comes to akusala. I thought that I could see why some people see this as pessimistic, but I appreciated it as realistic. Better look at the way things really are than the way we would like them to be. OK, back to piiti. > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) gives the following definition of > pú`i: > * > "?Et refreshes (pûXayati, gladdens, satisfies), thus it is happiness > (pú`i)(1). It has the characteristic of satisfaction(2)(sampiyåy ana). Its > function is to refresh the body and the mind; I would like to ask about this "refresh" and in the context of daily life rather than jhana factors. (though I have learned that jhana factors are relevant to daily life.) A few weeks ago, for example, I was walking to work feeling a bit sluggish and grumpy because a vacation was over. As I walked (and exercise refreshes the citta too, through endorphines) I saw two bright red tulips at the base of an ugly concrete overpass. I thought the tulips were very vivid and plucky - I guess I proliferated on a story about plucky little tulips suriving in a barren landscape. For whatever reason, having seen these tulips really picked up my spirits. My question - when re read "piiti refreshes (or invigorates) the citta, is it only the one mental moment, or can it also refer to a longer series of cittas? I mean, in daily life, we are refreshed in a way that is more than momentary. A beautiful sight or a stirring piece of music or the smile of a loved one (or a stranger for that matter - and maybe more so a stranger since it is a surprise) can make us feel refreshed or invigorated for hours. Is this because the pitti and/or the object are a strong condition for subsequent refreshed moments? I haven't explained that well. I wonder if you know what I mean. I often think of the sutta in which the Buddha says "he who seeks delight in form (and other khandas) seeks suffering." On the other hand, it seems to me that we can *find* delight in things without seeking it, and it can be beneficial in refreshing the mind and conditioning more capacity for kusala, if you know what I mean. After seeing that flower, although there was lobha involved, I was picked up and had more "room" for my students, more patience, more kindness, than if I hadn't had that lobha. Is that the invigorating aspect of piiti at work? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil 45887 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 3:55am Subject: Control htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kysdonn of Dhammapath Yahoo Group posted a message regarding Visak. He also quoted Dhammapada. Here is a part of his message; WHAT THE BUDDHA TAUGHT Irrigators regulate the waters; fletcher straighten the arrow shaft; carpenters shape the wood; the wise control themselves. Dhammapada V.80 Htoo's message: So the wise 'control' themselves. The wise are wise enough to see anatta but they do 'control' themselves. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45888 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:05am Subject: Re: Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Htoo > > > When pariyatti is wrong then patipatti is wrong and there is no > > pativedha. When an arrow is released from a bow and it goes not to > > the target, the destination will be far from the target. > > > Very well said, Htoo! This is why wise people put a lot of > emphasis on sorting out right understanding at the beginning in a > strict way so the middle and end can be fruitful. This takes > patience, because there is a tendency for people to want to get > right at practice, especially by being too literal in their > interpretation of suttas. I think Abhidhamma helps us here. > > > When dhamma are not controled then there is a greater chance > > of realization. > > Well. I think dhamma *can't* be controlled, but when there is the > delusion that they can be, there is less appreciation of the > beautiful learning possibilities in the fluidity of every moment, I > think. > > Thanks for this, Htoo. > > Metta, > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, Thanks for your kind message. But to be honest, you wrongly took those words as if I was saying. But when you re-read my message again, you will see what I wanted to say. Those 2 parts are not of my ideas but the first was of Robert K and the second point was of Sukin. I just included these 2 points as ironic statements. But I did not say I agreed or do not agreed on both points. Today I posted 'Control'. The reason I posted 'Self meditating in forest, anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha' is to emphasize to do patipatti. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45889 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:20am Subject: Re: Self meditating in forest, Anatta shopping at supermarket & Ha Ha Ha philofillet Hi Htoo (and Rob K and Sukin) > Thanks for your kind message. But to be honest, you wrongly took > those words as if I was saying. But when you re-read my message > again, you will see what I wanted to say. > Those 2 parts are not of my ideas but the first was of Robert K and > the second point was of Sukin. Ph: Oops. Sorry about that. Well, they're your view now, Htoo. No taking them back! (haha) I just came home from work and read that without reading the whole series. Funny, I thought of Rob K when I read the one about the importance of getting pariyatti right! I remember that he likes the sutta that says that right view precedes the other factors the way the dawn precedes the sunrise or words to that effect. Thanks all. And thanks in passing, Htoo, for the further commments you added to my question re adosa/metta the other day. Metta, Phil 45890 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin.(Citta A-Citta B bussiness) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sukin and Tep, ------- > K. Sujin then compared > > my initial doubt with the one that sates to the effect that, "how can one > > citta know another citta, when the former has already fallen away"? She > > said that I was caught up in the `idea' of one citta arising and having > > one object at a time. > --------- > N: An idea does not help. We can check realities. Seeing has just fallen > away, but it is still present, its characteristic appears and it can be > object of awareness. > If anything is not clear, please insist. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Sukin, Tep and all, Once Howard and I was discussing on citta A- citta B- business. Citta A arises. It falls away. Citta B arises. Citta B takes citta A as its object. How can this be possible? Howard remarked that if this happened, it had to be that 'the object of citta B is not 'true citta A'. Because it has fallen away. So citta B is taking 'a copy' or 'identical photocopy of citta A'. it has not to be true citta A. Nina, Sukin, Tep, and anyone could you please consider on this point? Howard is welcome to join in. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45891 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:37am Subject: Re: Control philofillet Hi Htoo > Irrigators regulate the waters; > fletcher straighten the arrow shaft; > carpenters shape the wood; > the wise control themselves. > > Dhammapada V.80 > > Htoo's message: So the wise 'control' themselves. The wise are wise > enough to see anatta but they do 'control' themselves. Phil's message: As it happens, this is the very verse that started me thinking about the uncontrollability of thoughts, about a year ago. It made me imagine the way people were sitting, striving to control their thoughts, and to tell the truth it gave rise to feelings of compassion, because there is no controlling thoughts. They rise due to conditions. I thought of beginners to Dhamma sitting on a meditation conditions striving with all their might to control their thoughts and I thought of how they must feel when again and again and again thoughts run their course as they will. Now, I don't think this applies to people who have made progress in eradicating defilements. I don't know. And for Htoo and other people who have been studying and practicing for years, I don't think this applies. But I feel compassion at the thought of beginners (like myself) going through Hell because they think that because they are unable to control their thoughts and direct them like arrowshafts to a target they cannot be good Buddhists. I think this verse is a very good example of a teaching that if taken literally throws people for a loop. Control arises, yes, of course. If it didn't we would be like animals. But it is patiently appreciating moments of control (of absataining from akusala, for example) when they arise that we make progress, I think. This is seen in the precepts. It is fine to think of precepts and vow to keep them and attempt to control citta in a way that doesn't allow breaking precepts, but it is *only* in the moments that one abstains from akusala that there is the keeping of precepts. Hours and days and weeks and months of vowing to keep precepts are of little ultimate meaning - it's all in the moment. And control is all in the moment. A moment of abstaining from a hateful thought. That abstention is a beautiful thing, a rare thing, and I think it is a mistake to claim to be able to have it whenever one wants or aspire (for now) to have it whenever one wants. (This is how I feel about metta too.) More glib babbling from me. I am a hobbyist compared to you, Htoo, so thanks for your patience! Metta, Phil 45892 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:38am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >Thanks for your reply. :-) I will check beforehand. And I will also > >check when leaving this world. What to check? > > > >1. where am I going? > >2. where am I not going? > >3. am I going anywhere? > >4. is there somewhere that I am going to? > >5. lastly is there someone who is going to go somewhere? :-) > > > > > ;-)) > > I have a suggestion. If you move No. 5 up to No. 1, then you won't have > to bother with figuring out the answers to Nos. 1-4 ;-)). > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, My smile is tagged at No. 5. With respect, Htoo Naing 45893 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:45am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >I understand you and Sarah with regard to 'formal sitting meditation'. > >And I also sense right wish of those who want to fortify the practice. > > > >Those who are reluctant to do meditation practice because of > >inadvertant fear of wrong practition will regret later. > > > > I would put it somewhat differently ;-)) For a start, I would be > interested to know what you see as the exact role of 'formal sitting > meditation' in the development of samatha and vipassana. Is it your > understanding that 'formal sitting meditation' is the whole of samatha > and vipassana bhavana, or do you think there can be the development of > samatha and bhavana outside formal sitting meditation? If the latter, > then wouldn't we be better off talking about the development of samatha > and vipassana, rather than about formal sitting meditation? > > As regards inadvertent wrong practice, this is bound to occur from time > to time, since there is still much accumulated wrong view. However, > wrong view will be gradually overcome by right view (panna of the > mundane path, or patipatti) as that is developed little by little (drop > by drop, as Phil would say). > > As I understand it, moments of right view/mundane insight/patipatti are > the key. These may occur as a result of useful reflection on what has > been heard and correctly understood (pariyatti), although it is in the > nature of things that there is no knowing when, or of what object, > moments of insight will occur. > > >It is good to do before we vanish from this world. The older we are > >the weaker we are and the less physical support from our body. > > > >Learning goes through trials and errors. > > > > Yes, we learn through trial and error. That is a fact of life. But it > is not an argument in favour of making more errors ;-)) > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your message. Your approach to understanding is more sensitive and you are more diplomatic than others. Nice to discuss with you. Now you already admit that 'Yes, we learn through trial and error. That is a fact of life.' So why to bother practising? I was not encouraging making more errors. With respect, Htoo Naing 45894 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Mike and Htoo, > > op 21-05-2005 20:45 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Somehow I'd got the idea that, for each stage, the path, then > > the fruit each arose for only one moment and then were gone for good. Is > > this 'agian and again' attainment a kind of reviewing, or...? > ------- > N: More than reviewing. It needs preparation, a special kind of practice, > described by the Vis., but only jhana-labhii can do this. > We read in the Vis. that all ariyans can attain phala-samaapatti, but this > means: provided they have developed jhana. Thus not sukkha vipassaka. (Htoo: > sukka is white, sukkha is dry.) > In my answer to Htoo, I only spoke about anagamis and arahats, because his > Q. dealt with them. > I quote from my Thai study about the Vis. passage about all ariyans can do > this. We have to understand this in the right context. > Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot) > states: ³All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment². This is a conclusion > which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated > that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once- returner) are not > able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non- returner) > and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the > anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi > (concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan) > may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane > jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the sotåpanna, > the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter fruition- attainment, > provided they are able to attain jhåna.> > We have to distinguish between jhåana-samåapatti and phala- samaapatti. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. A little bit clearer than before. With respect, Htoo Naing 45895 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:56am Subject: Cutting off sankhara at feeling philofillet Hello all I'd like to try to paraphrase an interesting discussion in one of the recorded talks that always catches my attention. Shakti brings up a question based on a teaching that she has heard, about feeling being the point at which sankhara (formations?) are cut off. Kh Sujin and Sarah reply that there is no cutting off feeling, because as we know feeling is a cetasika that arises with each and every citta. That is a very brief paraphrase of a fairly long exchange. But I'm always left pondering something that I'd like to get down "on paper" now. Yes, there is feeling with every citta. So of course we can't cut off feeling at the momentary level. But doesn't the "cutting off" that Shakti was referring to (from a teacher, or something she read, I forget) refer not to a momentary cutting off, or even an intententional cutting off, but ....how can I put this....the subsiding of formations, or proliferation or something like that because there is mindfulness of a feeling? I mean, isn't feeling likely to be the paramattha dhamma that we are most likely to become aware of, as beginners, because we are always so interested in feeling, and feeling is more evident than - say - bare consciousness? So for example, I am having uncharitable thoughts about someone, and there is a moment of mindfulness of the unpleasant feeling that accompanies my aversion? I catch myself, so to speak, or am acught by this mindfulness, and thanks to that moment of mindfulness, the uncharitable thoughts fall away, the proliferation ceases, there is calm, there is a release from akusala, maybe? (Until conditions bring the next wave rushing up?) Do you know what I mean? Doesn't "cut off at feeling" mean that we stop proliferating, brought back by a moment of mindfulness of feeling? Thanks for any feedback, especially from Shakti, if you're out there (I've really enjoyed listening to your contrinbutions to the talks.) I will (may) transcribe some of the details of this discussion later. Metta, Phil 45896 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 4:57am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 159. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch.XIV, 159. We cannot control them, but understanding of them can be developed. ***** Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 45897 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Matheesha, It takes more than a lifetime, as Khun Sujin often said. Mattheesha, I got a little shock when reading: it is not enough. A wholesome shock. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, Matheesha and all, Mahasatipatthaana is for continuously aborting the idea of self. Some of us may be doing 'continually' rather than 'continuously'. This 'doing' is not doing of particular thing but 'understanding' as it happens. As the day goes on, there are many many instants that we almost always miss the points of arising of 'idea of self'. For me, this is more apparent when doing meditation. Saying 'doing meditation' should not confuse you as 'a special activity' that you DSGs all deny. With respect, Htoo Naing 45898 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] htootintnaing Dear Jon and Tep, Jon wrote to Tep:[cut part of Kitagiri sutta] zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.>> To me this suggests a chain of factors but without there being anything in the nature of 'real action' required. Jon ------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Jon, so what is or what does that mean when you quote 'he applies his will;'? What is or what does that mean 'he scrutinises;? What is or what does that mean 'he strives;'? I would be very much grateful if you could answer straight. With respect, Htoo Naing 45899 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 6:06am Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello all I'd like to try to paraphrase an interesting discussion in one of the recorded talks that always catches my attention. Shakti brings up a question based on a teaching that she has heard, about feeling being the point at which sankhara (formations?) are cut off. Kh Sujin and Sarah reply that there is no cutting off feeling, Do you know what I mean? Doesn't "cut off at feeling" mean that we stop proliferating, brought back by a moment of mindfulness of feeling? Thanks for any feedback, especially from Shakti, if you're out there (I've really enjoyed listening to your contrinbutions to the talks.) I will (may) transcribe some of the details of this discussion later. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, There are 89 consciousness. They are vinnana-kkhandha or aggregate of consciousness. But they all have accompaniments. Among accompaniments feeling or vedana and perception or sanna always arise together with each and every citta of these 89 cittas or consciousness. When we look at feeling, we will see that each and every citta has a feeling. All these feelings that is 89 feelings are vedana-kkhandha or aggregate of feeling. When we look at perception, we will see that each and every citta has a perception or sanna. All these perception that is 89 perceptions are sanna-kkhandha or aggregate of perception. When we investigate 89 cittas there are accompaniments that are not feeling and not perception. But they all help citta in a way that citta is behaving according to the suggestions given by these accompaniments. There are 52 mental accompaniments and as feeling and perception are separate aggregate there will be 50 accompaniments and they all are sankhara-kkhandha or aggregate of formations. When we investigate the phenomena that are not naama we will see that there are rupa (vanna) or sight, (sadda) or sound, (gandha) or smell, (rasa) or taste, photthabba or touch-senses such as solidity (pathavi), pressure(vayo),temperature(tejo) and these 7 phenomena are all physical phenomena and they are aggregate of rupa or rupa- kkhandha. When we consider when we see something there have arisen eye- consciousness or cakkhu-vinnana citta or seeing-consciousness, rupa or vanna or object of seeing or visual object, and eye-sensitivity or senstive part of the eye or cakkhu-pasada rupa. Among these 3 phenomena, eye-consciousness is naama and it is one of 89 cittas. But other 2 phenomena that is rupa or vanna (mentioned above) and eye- sensitivity are not naama. Because they do not have consciousness themselves. So eye-sensitivity or cakkhu-pasada is a rupa. Likewise ear-sensitivity or sota-pasada, nose-sensitivity or ghana-pasada, tongue-sensitivity or jivha-pasada and body-sensitivity or kaya-pasada are all rupa and these 5 rupa of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body are collectively called rupa-kkhandha or aggregate of rupa or material or matter. Still there are other 16 rupa that only come to the mind and they are called subtle rupa or sukhuma rupa. All these rupa are rupa-kkhandha. The cutting point? 'Rounds of dhamma of cause and effect' or 'paticca-samuppada' or Dependent Origination' does not have a starting point and there is no tagential point. It is cycling or rotating on its own. There is no self in that D.O or paticca-samuppada. But when we investigate on arahats and non-arahats there do have 'cutting point' in this D.O. 1. ignorance (avijja) --> 2. formation (sankhara) --> 3. consciousness(vinnana)-->4.mind-matter(nama-rupa)--> 5. 6-sense-base(salayatana)-->6.contact (phassa) --> 7. feeling (vedana) --> 8. craving (tanha) --> This is true for non-arahats. But arahats do not have avijja or tanha any more and any longer. So in case of arahats, 7. feeling (vedana) -|-> 0. craving (tanha). Tanha is beheaded. Who kills tanha? Arahatta magga kills tanha. This is cutting point and when the round comes it comes to a halt at feeling and it does not progress to 'craving' or (tanha). I hope you see the cutting point. It is 'feeling ---||---> beheaded craving'. I do not know what K Sujin and Sarah have been saying. Regarding feeling there are 3 feelings according to anubhavana and 5 feelings according to indriya. There are 89 cittas. But if lokuttara kusala cittas arise in the vicinity of jhaanas there will be a total of 121 cittas. Feeling-wise there are 5 groups of citta. 1. happy-feeling (somanassa) 62 cittas 2. pleasant-feeling(sukha) 1 citta 3. indifferent-feeling(upekkha) 55 cittas 4. unpleasant-feeling(dukkha) 1 citta 5. unhappy-feeling(domanassa) 2 cittas ---------- 121 cittas In arahats cittas in category 5 do not arise because arahats already eradicated dosa. Some cittas from category 1 do not arise. Examples are 4 lobha mula cittas or 4 consciousness with attachment. Some cittas from category 3 do not arise in arahats. Examples are 2 moha mula citta or 2 consciousness rooted in moha orm ignorance. But arahats can have both category 2 and category 4. Because both citta are vipaka cittas. Arahats cannot avoid the round of vipaka. So they do have pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling. They may have bodily pleasant-feeling and they may have bodily unpleasant feeling like pain. But they have cut of tanha link from feeling. This is 'CUTTING POINT' in D.O. They do have feeling. But they do not craving. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45900 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 6:28am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Attn.: Htoo, Nina, James} - Okay, I can see a new angle in your comment about the sutta, especially MN 10 and DN 22, with emphasis on bodily postures rather than on walking specifically. But that is because the "walking meditation" involves only two bodily postures: walking and standing (at the end of the walking path). It does not mean that walking meditation (meditation while walking and standing) is wrong. The sitting and lying down postures should be a part of the everyday meditation when you are not meditating while walking (and standing). If you have read my other posts so far, you may have seen that there are both samatha&vipassana or sati&sampajanna in "walking meditation" the same as one can see in the Satipatthana Sutta. Thank you for the continuing attention, Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >The earlier story of my walking > >meditation experience is a "meditation while walking", in which the > >mindfulness and the thorough comprehension (sampajanna) are on > >the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, standing and turning back). > > > > Yes, I understand what you are saying. However, if 'walking meditation' > is really an aspect of "body in the body", wouldn't it be truer to the > teachings to think and talk about "body in the body" (a term from the > suttas) rather than "walking meditation" (a term not found in the suttas > or ancient commentaries). As I see it, kayanupasana is much more than > 'body in the body while walking', and the suttas dealing with > kayanupassana do not give particular emphasis to walking, as opposed to > the other bodily postures, as far as I know. > > Jon 45901 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 6:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (414) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When ascending to 2nd jhaana there are two ways of classification on rupa jhana. One is 4-step classification and the other is 5-step classification. As there are 5 jhana factors it will be more appropriate to talk that there are 5 jhana. When jhana are talked to have 5 rupa jhana, what we have finished is 2nd rupa jhana that have 4 out of 5 jhana factors namely 1. vicaara or 'sustained application' 2. piiti or 'rapture' 3. sukha or 'tranquility' 4. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness'. When jhana-related exercises are done the potential danger of vicaara or sustained application is once recognised and then the practitioner tries to eliminate vicaara or sustained application from his 2nd jhana. There is a simile for this matter for those who would deny the possibility of vicaara without vitakka. The simile says that there is a king, his minister, and minister's friend. Minister and minister's friend are vitakka and vicaara. The king is 1st jhaana citta. At first whenever the minister comes to see the king, the friend always follows with him. When the king and the friend of the minister become familiar to each other, the minister is no more needed to apply to the king to be seen by the friend of minister. The friend can now come and see the king without initial application or vitakka. In this way the 2nd jhana, which does not have vicaara but does have vicaara can be developed. When 2nd jhana is practised to the proficient level there sees the danger of vicaara and later it can well be eliminated from jhana factor and 3rd jhaana(2nd jhaana of 4-step jhana) can then be developed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45902 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 6:41am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: I was trying to show that mundane insight, if it occurs, is a form of direct attention to nama or rupa, in other words, that there is no particular action through body or speech needed for its accomplishment. James: Yes, no particular action is needed for the arising of insight. I'm not sure why you are telling me this except that maybe you think I believe a particular action is necessary. No, Jon, if I believed that then I would believe in rituals, which I don't. However, I do believe that certain actions are more conducive to the arising of insight. Actions that allow steady attention to nama and rupa: sitting, walking (slowly and mindfully, not to travel anywhere), standing, and lying. These are all bodily actions which can be conducive to the arising of insight because they are conducive to increased concentration. Jon: Now that my strategy has been exposed, I'll have to develop another one ;-)) James: ;-)) I guess so. One of Htoo's recent posts (#45898 ) to you asks "I would be very much grateful if you could answer straight." I really had to laugh out loud when I read that (even went into a coughing fit due to my head cold). I'm sure you know why I laughed. Jon: I agree that just studying the teachings is not the Noble Eightfold Path. However, hearing the teachings explained in detail and in different ways, considering the teachings, and relating what has been considered to the present moment is an indispensable part of the development of insight. James: Yes, I completely agree; but it is only the first part to the development of insight. Jon: In the words of the Kitagiri Sutta (M.70) there needs to be, in addition to hearing the Dhamma correctly explained, examining of the meaning of what has been heard, the gaining of a reflective acceptance of the teachings, the application of will, scrutiny, and striving. James: Now, the section: "application of will, scrutiny, and striving" means a particular thing to me which I don't believe matches your idea of what it means. I will look forward to how you answer this question for Htoo- just remember to answer straight ;-). Metta, James 45903 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 6:50am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Jon {Attn.: Htoo, Nina, James} - Okay, I can see a new angle in your comment about the sutta, especially MN 10 and DN 22, with emphasis on bodily postures rather than on walking specifically. But that is because the "walking meditation" involves only two bodily postures: walking and standing (at the end of the walking path). It does not mean that walking meditation (meditation while walking and standing) is wrong. The sitting and lying down postures should be a part of the everyday meditation when you are not meditating while walking (and standing). If you have read my other posts so far, you may have seen that there are both samatha&vipassana or sati&sampajanna in "walking meditation" the same as one can see in the Satipatthana Sutta. Thank you for the continuing attention, Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and Jon, DN 22 always includes internally, externally, internally-externally. And it always includes seeing the cause(and the event), seeing the cessation(and the event), seeing cause&cessation(and the event). These are actually momentary-sacca or momentary-realization. When rupa-nama arise and pass away, impermanance is seen and realization of suffering (naama-ruupa) is seen, the cause is also seen, the cessation is also seen and this vihati or such abiding is just right on the right path and this is developing of the path momentarily. This is loki magga and loki sacca when naama and ruupa are seen during any stage of the day(this also include night). There are experts but as they are frail I do not want to bother them much as they are approaching to their 9th decade or 10th decade. When 'simple instructions' are heard people with intelligent pack of abhidhamma knowledge would deny those 'instructions'. I can sense what Tep has been saying on 'walking meditation'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45904 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 6:56am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: This is loki magga and loki sacca when naama and ruupa are seen during any stage of the day(this also include night). [I mean mundane insight that is 'seeing of sacca or truth when in loka' or seeing of loki-sacca.]***** There are experts but as they are frail I do not want to bother them much as they are approaching to their 9th decade or 10th decade. When 'simple instructions' are heard people with intelligent pack of abhidhamma knowledge would deny those 'instructions'. I can sense what Tep has been saying on 'walking meditation'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45905 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 7:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (415) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 10 kasina samatha bhavana or 10 kasina tranquility meditation can give rise up to 5th ruupa jhana. Aanaapaanasati or breathing meditation can also give rise up to 5th rupa jhaana. So these 11 meditation can give rise up to 5th ruupa jhana. But 10 asubha samatha bhavana or 10 foul meditation cannot give rise to 2nd jhaana. Because 'the idea of dead body' or 'the picture of dead body' cannot be constructed without initial application or vitakka, which is voided in 2nd jhana. The same applies to kaayagatasati or 32- body-part meditation. These 11 meditation can give 1st jhaana only. There is a third group of meditation method. It is brahmavihaara or meditation on pure-living. There are 4 different meditation. 2 are general and 2 are particular. 2 general pure-living meditation are metta or loving-kindness and upekkha or equanimous pure-living. Because these 2 meditation are applied to all form of satta or beings whatever they are suffering (good or bad). 2 particular pure-living meditation are karuna brahmavihaara or compassion-pure-living and mudita brahmavihaara or appreciation-pure- living. Karuna is directed to beings in poor positions of any means. Mudita is directed to beings in prosperous position of any means. All 4 brahmavihaara or 4 pure-living meditation can give rise to 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana, and 4th jhaana. But upekkha brahmavihaara is normally not the leading meditation in acquisition of 1st jhana and so of 2nd, 3rd and 4th jhaana even though there always are upekkha or balancing mind in all of 1st 4 rupa jhana that is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ruupa jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45906 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 7:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread (416) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the 3rd jhana is being proficiated with 5 different exercises, there discovers that piiti or rapture is close to the danger of prospective 4th jhaana. Third jhaana is made up of 3 jhaana factors. They are 1. piiti or rapture 2. sukha or tranquility 3. ekaggata or one-pointedness These 3 cetasikas can be read in earlier Dhamma Thread posts in cetasika portion. 3rd jhana is nama. It is 3rd jhaana rupavacara rupakusala citta. If it is developed by arahats it will be rupavacara rupakiriya citta. 3rd rupa jhana is a vinnana. So it is vinnanakkhandha. There are associated mental factors. One of them is somanassa vedana or happy- feeling and it is vedanakkhandha or feeling aggregate. Another mental factor in 3rd jhana citta is sanna cetasika. Sanna cognizes the object. It is perception. It is sannakkhandha or perception aggregate. Apart from these 2 mental factors there are other mental factors. They all constitute sankhara and they are sankhara-kkhandha and they are formation aggregate. Among sankharakkhandha there are piiti or rapture and ekaggata or one- pointedness and they are both jhana factors. Vedana as somanassa or happy-feeling or sukha is also a jhana factor. Among these 3 jhana factors, piiti is particular seen as a potential danger to the prospective 4th jhana. When this is repeatedly contemplated and considered and 3rd jhana is refined, at a time there arises a mental state when piiti or rapture no more arises. This arising is a new state and it is the 4th rupa jhana. Because there are only 2 jhana factors and they are sukha or happy-feeling and ekaggata or one-pointedness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45907 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina and Sukinder - Thank you both for the fruitful discussion that involves Ajahn Sujin's practical comments on Anapanasati and jhana. I'll be glad to read your comments to my remarks given below. Thanks. N: Tep, also the first jhana is referred to. When jhanacitta has just fallen away, the yogavacara should and can consider the jhanafactors that are with the jhanacitta. They have just fallen away and their characteristics can appear to the citta with sati sampajañña. When he is very skilful, he can attain higher stages of jhana. T: I understand this micro aspects (citta level) of the switching in and out from a jhana citta such that samatha and vipassana may be yoked together. In the macro (stream of consciousnesses) level, however, the yogi perceives continuity of sati and sampajjanna while he/she is aware of piiti at the same time that he is also mindful of the breaths and the sign. The macro explanation is easy to understand. N: I like it that Kh Sujin repeats: when anapanasati is being developed, how it can be of great profit, of great fruit? By being aware of breath and seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, etc. Thus, seeing anattaa. I think we should continue to keep this in mind. T: The anattaa characteristic may be realized during the vipassana stage (4th tetrad). But it does not come early in the Anapanasati bhavana, at least that's how I see it. Sukinder: ...She then gave > the example of tasting, knowing both the taste and the awareness that > there is `something' there and pointed to the mode of "knowing" > of "citta" rather than `sati' (I think this is what she was trying to get > across, but I am not sure). ------------ N: This example shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. it seems knowing what the taste is occurs at the same time as tasting the flavour. In the same way, the yogavacara experiences with absorption the meditation subject, and immediately realizes after that jhanafactors like piiti. T: Theoretically, it may be like Nina has explained. But I think Ajahn Sujin talked about the practical (macro level) side of it. I think I understand her explanation as follows. The "knowing" of citta is the stream of consciousnesses, a kind of thorough comprehension in addition to mindfulness (sati). ------- Sukinder: K. Sujin then compared > my initial doubt with the one that states to the effect that, "how can one > citta know another citta, when the former has already fallen away"? She > said that I was caught up in the `idea' of one citta arising and having > one object at a time. --------- N: An idea does not help. We can check realities. Seeing has just fallen away, but it is still present, its characteristic appears and it can be object of awareness. T: I am impressed by Ajahn Sujin's remark that says the idea of one citta arising to take one object at a time is unnecessarily restrictive. What Nina was saying sounds like the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga. I think Ajahn sujin's remark is broader; she said that it should be the phenomenon of the stream of consciousnesses rather than the single-citta scenario. Reality check can be clouded by the underlying theory. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sukin and Tep, > Sukin, would you please thank Kh Sujin for her very clear explanation. > I did not suggest that the Vis. reference did not seem to point to moments of satipatthana, but I only quoted the samatha > part: piiti with the object. 45908 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 7:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin.(Citta A-Citta B bussiness) buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo - Please read my message # 45907. Thanks. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Once Howard and I was discussing on citta A- citta B- business. > > Citta A arises. It falls away. > Citta B arises. Citta B takes citta A as its object. > > How can this be possible? > > Howard remarked that if this happened, it had to be that 'the object > of citta B is not 'true citta A'. Because it has fallen away. So > citta B is taking 'a copy' or 'identical photocopy of citta A'. it > has not to be true citta A. > > Nina, Sukin, Tep, and anyone could you please consider on this point? Howard is welcome to join in. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45909 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: Five Generations foamflowers On Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 02:28 AM, kelvin_lwin wrote: Hi Lisa, Vism XX, 105 Now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight arise in him. For imperfections of insight do not arise either in a noble disciple who has reached penetration [of the truths] or in persons erring in virtue, neglectful of their meditation subject and idlers. They arise only in a clansman who keeps to the right course, devotes himself continuously [to his meditation subject] and is a beginner of insight. But what are these ten imperfections? They are: (1) illumination, (2) knowledge, (3) rapturous happiness, (4) tranquillity, (5) bliss (pleasure), (6) resolution, (7) exertion, (8) assurance, (9) equanimity and (10) attachment. How do you recognize subtle sensations? Are they always the same type/kind? Do you judge your practice by the type of sensations? Can you always find the sensations whenever there's a quiet moment? I've been following your threads and the thing to remember is Goenkaji's model is a simple one. It's consistent with abhidhamma model however. Whenever I read your posts, I can almost recite the ten day discourse material. I think you'll find the satipatthana discourses to be quite interesting too if you haven't heard them already. Which center will you be doing it at? - kel I judge practice by the ease of the passage through out day, that is, how much do I let things be or go instead of trying to control. How freaked out do I get under pressure. I also work an evening, job three times a week and it's taking orders in a fast past Italian Restaurant. I actually took this job to get to know my neighborhood and help my friend out plus it pushes me to work on my shyness with people. It's only three hours in the evening during the dinner and theater hour. I have to work the computers and phone for delivery, take out and front desk order, plus make sure the kitchen knows what I've put into the system, make sure our customers tables are well ordered as food is placed correctly and leaves the table correctly...and I used to have panic attacks just talking to strange people I was very shy. Now hardly any movement at all in the body when it comes to fear and confusion. When I am hungry, angry, lonely or tired I still may get confused so I keep an alert eye out in the evening if we get swamped, we have con artist in Chicago that try and get money out of my till. If the sensations of anxiety come up, I stay focused on my tasks not the anxiety sensations, I don't push them away nor do I cling to them by intense focus. I focus on the the job and just lightly focus on breath during these stressful times. It makes time seems to stand still when in a rush and under pressure and I can let the panic and anxiety go and not worry about what others may or may not be thinking or doing. I guess I judge my progress by how steady I stay in my mind no matter what sensations comes up. That is, am I able to function with ease in mind and body and get my tasks done correctly. I started study in Dhamma 15 years ago plus vipassana, anpanasati and metta meditation. My family is healthy and whole now but in the past that wasn't so. I'm a product of foster homes and had a life full of violence and abuse which also transfered into my adult life. Fear had been my best friend for a long time and learning how to let go of it and love my family, trust people and not hate people has been a huge adventure. I am very thankful for Goenka's meditation and my Dhamma teacher Sunim. They helped me salvage my life and re-connect with my family, I had to leave my family while I let go of all the negative habits, having to defending myself all the time was not condusive to letting go of negative behavior. I picked up a lot of survival behaviors during this life that didn't help living this life. I didn't fall for drugs, it was fear, depression, anxiety and paranoia that I struggled with. I couldn't stand to be around people anymore and had become a recluse and that wasn't good for me and my family. So I faced my fear with the Dhamma tools I picked up and here I am. Sensation subtle or soft is always changing, but for me certain areas of the body are easier to find subtle and that may be because of me and someone else will be different. The face, nose top of the head, back and chest, hands and feet. Gut is the most dense and difficult to find subtle sensations or feelings. I guess because of the earth element. I can see sensations all the time it gets easier with practice, the breath is a great gage for how I'm doing when it comes to balance as well. "Inasmuch as all change is a dying, it is from the inconstancy (anicca) of life and thought that the Wayfarer seeks to be emancipated, -- 'seeking for stability' (atthitam nissay, AN 3.219)." "Time is not to be thought of as 'made of' a succession of stops, but as a continuum (samtana); the indivisible moment is immanent in time, but NOT a part of time."...I found this last night while reading and it reminds me of a question I asked about the moment (M). I found the answer I needed. With Metta, Lisa 45910 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 8:18am Subject: Decisive Support Condition htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, ''Upanissaya paccayo ti- purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam kusalaanam dhammaanam upanissaya paccayena paccayo.'' In 'upanissaya paccayo' or 'decisive support condition' there are dhammas such as 'purimaa kusalaa dhamma' or 'foregoing wholesome dhamma'. When such dhamma foregoes what follow them is called 'pacchimaanam dhammaanam' or 'following dhamma' or 'after- dhamma' 'back-dhamma'. If foregoing dhammas are kusala dhamma then following dhamma will be kusala dhamma. Foregoing kusala dhamma serves as 'upanissaya paccaya' or 'decisive support condition' for the following kusala dhamma. The foregoing dhamma is paccaya dhamma or supporting dhamma or conditioning dhamma or causal dhamma and the following dhamma is paccayuppanna dhamma or supported dhamma or conditioned dhamma or resultant dhamma. The relationship between foregoing kusala dhamma and the following kusala dhamma is known as 'upanissaya paccaya' or 'decisive support condition'. This kind of support can be learned in the junction between the first and the second, the second and the third, the third and the fourth, the fourth and the fifth, the fifth and the sixth, and the sixth and the seventh kusala javana cittas or wholesome mental impulsive consciousness. This is in kusala dhamma in kamavacara dhamma. This is not in rupakusala or arupakusala because they have their condition called jhana condition. In kusala javana cittas, there is decisive support condition between two kusala cittas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo 45911 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 8:27am Subject: Lobha developing lobha not jhaana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, ''Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam akusalaanam dhammaanam kesanci upanissaya paccayena paccayo''. There are instants that kusala dhammas are being developed as a good deed or wholesome deed or meritorious deed. So it can be said that the beginning is started with wholesome actions. This can be seen in case when we do great offering to others. When we are offering we are happy and we are sincere that we do good things to other people. But 'sometimes' during that wholesome actions or around that wholesome actions that arise thinking that are not appropriate for kusala dhamma and this may finally lead to opposite called akusala dhamma. When there is a good start but there is a bad ending. This happen sometimes and the foregoing wholesome actions or kusala dhamma serves as 'decisive support condition' or 'upanissaya paccaya' for later unwholesome actions or akusala dhammas. Purima means 'front' 'before' 'foregoing'. Here kusala dhamma such as offering and kusala cittas that do the offering are foregoing dhamma or purima dhamma. When they go before what follow after them is pacchima dhamma. Pacchima means 'back' 'last' 'following'. Here pacchima dhammas are akusala dhamma. So kusala dhamma may serve as upanissaya paccaya for akusala dhamma in some way (kesanci). Here the condition is not proximity condition or anantara paccaya or it is also not contiguity condition or samanantara paccaya. So it is not necessary that the foregoing kusala dhammas have to be immediately followed by akusala dhamma. This cannot happen. Because kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma cannot be neighbour and they never arise in proximity condition or contiguity condition. But as explained above kusala dhamma may in some way support akusala dhamma and this sometimes happen. As in above example when offerings are being carried out there are kusala dhamma. But the merit doers may have inappropriate thinking on his own deeds. For example they may develop lobha or attachment to their own deeds and this attachment may further leads to other akusala dhamma. Another instant is that someone may try to develop jhana. Initially he will be doing kamavacara mahakusala or wholesome action. When the mind starts to calm down he may feel ease and again because of this ease he may think that he is currently in jhaana. Actually there may or may not be jhaana. Whatever there is jhaana or not, there may arise a subtle likeness to jhaana and he will not know his likeness. That likeness or lobha may then leads him to akusala dhamma. Initially there were kusala dhamma. But in some way these kusala dhamma were replaced by akusala dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45912 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 8:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Real action' vs. 'Earnest interest' [was, Walking Meditation] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Attn.: James, Htoo} - It is interesting that the discussion you have had with James and somewhat with Htoo hovers over the same issues we are discussing now. Jon: > I would say there is a direct connection between an 'earnest interest > in the teachings' and the arising of a moment of insight. Consider the > following from the Kitagiri Sutta MN 70 (MLDB, Nanamoli/Bodhi trans): > > < practise, gradual progress. > And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual practise, gradual progress? > Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; > when he visits him, he pays respect to him; > when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; > one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; > having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; > he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; > when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; > when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; > when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; > having applied his will, he scrutinises; > having scrutinised, he strives; > resolutely striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by > penetrating it with wisdom.>> > > > To me this suggests a chain of factors but without there being anything in the nature of 'real action' required. > Tep: You jumped too fast to the conclusion, Jon. The word "real action" means the same as "resolutely striving". What is striving? Sarah gave a good definition for striving in # 42699: S: "So'striving' is the right effort in the development of vipassana bhavana as you said, which develops with clear comprehension (sampajaana or panna) and mindfulness (sati) until they become balas (powers) along with saddha (confidence) and concentration (smadhi). As you said this is` "without a 'self' directing the effort, or lobha that yearns for results".' But what is the right effort (four right exertions)? Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." -- [MN 44 ] Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > (snipped) > >Tep: Jon, it depends very much on what you mean by "earnest interest in the teachings" and how you are converting that into real actions. > > > 45913 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 9:03am Subject: Green followed by White/Gray htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam abyaakataanam dhamaanam upanissaya paccayena paccayo'. Purima means 'east' 'before' 'foregoing'. So 'purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa' means 'if foregoing dhamma are wholesome dhamma,'. Pacchima means 'west' 'last' 'back'. Pacchimaanam pacchimaanam abyaakataanam dhammaanam means 'following dhamma will be abyaakata dhamma'. So the above Pali sentence means 'if foregoing dhamma are wholesome dhamma then the following dhamma will be abyaakata dhamma. Kusala dhamma are kusala cittas. There are 8 mahakusala cittas, 5 rupakusala cittas, 4 arupakusala cittas, and 4 lokuttara kusala cittas altogether there are 21 kusala cittas. 17 cittas are loki kusala cittas or mundane wholesome consciousness and 4 cittas are lokuttara kusala cittas or supramundane wholesome consciousness. Abyaakata dhamma are dhamma that are not kusala and that are also not akusala. There are 2 dhamma that are abyaakata dhamma. They are vipaaka dhamma or resultant dhamma and kiriya dhamma or inoperative dhamma. As vipaaka dhamma are resultant dhamma there will not be any more results from those result. So vipaaka dhamma are abyaakata dhamma. Kiriya cittas are those javana cittas or arahats. Arahats are totally free of any kusala or any akusala. So they are not creating any kamma at any time. They are not committing any kamma of good or bad at any time since they have been arahats. Their javana cittas or mental impulsive consciousness which lead to actions are just actions and they are inoperative. That is they do not operate any kamma at all. Or they can also be called as functional. because their javana cittas are just performing their actions and not creating any kamma at all. So all kiriya javana cittas are abyaakata dhamma. Likewise non-javana kiriya cittas are also abyaakata dhamma. When foregoing dhamma is kusala dhamma following dhamma may be abyaakata dhamma. Example relationship can be seen in case of the relationship between 7th javana citta and the 1st tadaarammana citta. 7th javana citta can be kusala citta when vithi vara is kusala javana. So foregoing dhamma is kusala dhamma. Tadaarammana cittas are all abyaakata dhamma. Because there are 11 tadaarammana cittas and they all are vipaka cittas. 3 santirana cittas are ahetuka vipaka cittas and 8 mahavipaaka cittas are sahetuka vipaka cittas. As all these 11 cittas are vipaaka cittas they all are abyaakata dhamma. 7th kusala javana citta is paccaya dhamma or causal dhamma or supporting dhamma or conditioning dhamma. The first tadaarammana citta is resultant dhamma or paccayuppanna dhamma or supported dhamma or conditioned dhamma. They are conditioned by the way of decisive support condition or upanissaya paccaya. So the relationship between these two dhamma of kusala dhamma and abyaakata dhamma is called upanissaya paccaya or decisive support condition. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45914 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 9:22am Subject: Colour Assignment on Cittas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, I would like to assign different consciousnesness with some certain colour to represent their function. There are 12 akusala cittas. 8 are lobha cittas, 2 are dosa cittas and 2 are moha cittas. a) lobha cittas are assigned with orange-yellow colour b) dosa cittas are assigned with red colour c) moha cittas are assigned with black colour There are 15 ahetuka vipaaka citta or 15 rootless resultant consciousness. 7 cittas are vipaka citta derived from akusala and 8 cittas are vipaaka cittas derived from kusala. d) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas are assigned with gray colour There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 rootless functional consciousness. All these 3 cittas are assigned with white colour because they are genuinely pure. e) 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas are assigned with white colour There are 24 kamavacara sobhana cittas or sensuous beautiful consciousness. They are 3 mahakusala citta, 3 mahavipaka cittas and 3 mahakiriya cittas. f) 8 mahakusala cittas are assingned with green colour g) 8 mahavipaka cittas are assigned with gray colour h) 8 mahakiriya cittas are assigned with white colour There are 15 rupavacara cittas or 15 consciousness of fine-material sphere. They are 5 rupakusala citta, 5 rupavipaka citta, and 5 rupakiriya cittas. i) 5 rupakusala cittas are assigned with green colour j) 5 rupavipaka cittas are assigned with gray colour k) 5 rupakiriya cittas are assigned with white colour There are 12 arupavacara cittas or 12 non-material consciousness. They are 4 arupakusala cittas, 4 arupavipaka cittas, and 4 arupakiriya cittas. l) 4 arupakusala cittas are assigned with green colour m) 4 arupavipaka cittas are assigned with gray colour n) 4 arupakiriya cittas are assigned with white colour There are 8 lokuttara cittas. 4 cittas are lokuttara kusala cittas and 4 cittas are lokuttara vipaka cittas. o) 4 lokuttara kusala cittas are assinged with gold-green colour p) 4 lokuttara vipaka cittas are assinged with gold-white/gray colour Gold-green means gold colour with green taint and gold-white/gray colour means gold colour with some taint of white and/ or gray colour. Again jhaana javana cittas and phala javana cittas are also tainted with glistening spots as they all are serene consciousness. This is for imagination. Someone like Rob M can think out more on citta, cetasika matters with visual analogue to demonstrate students of abhidhamma. Just a thought! With Metta, Htoo Naing 45915 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 10:19am Subject: Re: Five Generations lbidd2 Hi Lisa, Thanks for your reply. I got a sense of what you mean by "subtle sensations" but what I was mostly interested in was what Mr. Goenka, et al., might have said about sensations, subtle or otherwise, that I could understand in abhidhamma terms. It seems that I can locate all feelings in the body, which makes for very confusing abhidhamma. Part of the confusion is due to the many meanings of the word "feeling". It can mean touch, vedana, or emotion (love, hate etc.). Plus there are internal 'touch' feelings such as feeling sick. [I guess that is touch, not sure.] All of these various kinds of feeling seem to be mixed together and it is very difficult to sort them out 'in the field'. Oops, just thought of another feeling: intuition. More problems. Larry 45916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 22, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Desirable object - not important? nilovg Hi Phil, op 19-05-2005 03:23 schreef Philip op philco777@...: . You wrote "we often don't know if an object is > desirable or not - and why should we? It is not important - it doesn > not lead to detachment.." > My questions: > > 1) "We often don't know" because it is too fast, the vipaka is > already gone and there is only mental feeling that is likely to be > object of awareness? (I'm referring here to a visual object, say, > rather than body sense object) > > 2) Isn't "often don't know" more like "almost never know?" ---------- N: I looked at a beautifully bound book in red and gold leather (Goethe). I thought of your question. We look, but what is seen? We keep on thinking of a thing, and then we do not know visible object: the tiniest rupa arising and then gone immediately. Who can tell what is seen? There may be an ugly patch on that book. Colours are seen, but little is known about their being pleasant or unpleasant. When we think of a thing we can conclude that it is nice or not. We should not focus on this aspect, but it is important to find out what seeing is, and what colour is: a rupa that does not know anything, that is merely seen. -------- Sarah said in another post: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? A good reminder. -------- Ph: 3) "not important - it doesn't lead to detachment" for the above > reason - that it is too fast for worldlings to be likely to insight - > and it is therefore awareness of mental feeling that is likely to > be the object that can be insighted in a way that can condition > detachment? ------- N: We should not select feeling. Whatever appears. Not only mental feeling. --------- Ph: 4)Are there some situations in which awarness of an object as > desirable can condition gratitude to the Buddha or other wholesome > reflections? ---------- N: I do not think so. Don't we try to pinpoint too much, we all do. This makes me think of Azita's Q. on motion: Kh Sujin answered: Right at the moment a characteristic appears there can be development of understanding of it as not self. There should not be thinking of names, not trying to find out what it is. Perhaps we try to find out too much about objects. Lodewijk said: it sounds harsh, but it is true. Nina. 45917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 22, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Refreshing the citta (WasRe: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 183 - Enthusiasm/piiti (a) nilovg Hi Phil, op 22-05-2005 12:11 schreef Philip op philco777@... >> * >> "?Et refreshes (pûXayati, gladdens, satisfies), thus it is > happiness >> (pú`i)(1). It has the characteristic of satisfaction(2)(sampiyåy > ana). Its >> function is to refresh the body and the mind; > I would like to ask about this "refresh" .... > My question - when re read "piiti refreshes (or invigorates) the > citta, is it only the one mental moment, or can it also refer to a > longer series of cittas? -------- N: We should not forget that piiti is more often akusala, it gladdens in the akusala way. Remember Rob K's example about his glowing skin, after meditation with lobha? Subtle lobha can make one have a radiant appearance. People even talked about him, but he came to realize that it was caused by lobha. A striking example. We can be easily mistaken and we should not be misled by a word like invigorating. ---------- Ph: I mean, in daily life, we are refreshed in > a way that is more than momentary... Is this because the > pitti and/or the object are a strong condition for subsequent > refreshed moments? ---------- N: We keep on thinking about the tulips and liking them, so, there are many moments of piti. I do not think of piti as a strong condition. ----- Ph: After seeing that flower, although there was lobha involved, I was > picked up and had more "room" for my students, more patience, more > kindness, than if I hadn't had that lobha. Is that the invigorating > aspect of piiti at work? ------ N: So many conditions at work, we cannot trace them. We can be misled when trying to find the cause. Nina. 45918 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 11:30am Subject: Re: Cutting off sankhara at feeling buddhistmedi... Hi Phill (and Htoo) - I buy the concept that feeling does not cut off because the stream of cittas continues its flow through the samsara. But you asked if mindfulness of a feeling might stop its proliferation or make it subsided. Phil : Doesn't "cut off at feeling" mean that we stop proliferating, brought back by a moment of mindfulness of feeling? Tep: I believe that sati alone is enough to stop the flow, but sati doesn't cut off the flow of a feeling or any defilement that accompanies it. Panna can. "Truth of the path" can cause cessation of vedana, according to SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta. Feelings cease in Nibbana. "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] Comy. notes : [1]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of Suffering. [2]. He knows them by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering. [3]. He knows, by way of the Truth of Cessation, that feelings cease in Nibbana. [4]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. [5]. Parinibbuto, "fully extinguished" through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > > Do you know what I mean? Doesn't "cut off at feeling" mean that we > stop proliferating, brought back by a moment of mindfulness of > feeling? > 45919 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: Five Generations foamflowers Okay Larry you have me! I see what you're trying to say! On Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Larry wrote: Hi Lisa, Thanks for your reply. I got a sense of what you mean by "subtle sensations" but what I was mostly interested in was what Mr. Goenka, et al., might have said about sensations, subtle or otherwise, that I could understand in abhidhamma terms. It seems that I can locate all feelings in the body, which makes for very confusing abhidhamma. I know you know this already but I think I need a review (smiles). [Lisah] Vedana--feeling, sensation -- Three modes of feeling (usually understood whenever mention is made of "tisso vedana"): sukha (pleasant), dukkha (painful) adukkha--m--asukha (indifferent). -- or: kusala, akusala, avyakata -- Five vedanas: sukhan, dukkhan, somanassan, domanassan, upekkha. Categories of 2 to 108 modes of Vedana, . --vedana is one of the 5 khandhas (see khandha II.B). -- On relation of old and new sensations --vedana stands between phassa as condition and tanha as result, painful sensation, suffering, pain (i. e. dukkhavedana). -- As adj. vedana suffering or to be suffered : From the Pali Dictionary at the Chicago University site online. [Larry] Part of the confusion is due to the many meanings of the word "feeling". It can mean touch, vedana, or emotion (love, hate etc.). Plus there are internal 'touch' feelings such as feeling sick. [I guess that is touch, not sure.] All of these various kinds of feeling seem to be mixed together and it is very difficult to sort them out 'in the field'. [lisah]I do not mean emotion, or thought...have you every tried to explain what emotion is through Western medical or psychologically terms? I have and there are many conflicting theories, it is very confusing. What is emotion? I know what sensation is though at that is what I can touch, see, taste, hear and smell something and the brain is the organizing organ for the sense organs. Mind is not the brain (huge argument in science) [lisah] When it comes to love that is also a vague word. The love for my children is complicated, there are hormones and habits involved that are not me but make sure that this species called human survives. I saw that very clearly raising my children. What I thought was love is tied very closely to my physical and psychological processes. Loving kindness is not like that at all there is no push or pull with loving kindness, subtle sensation-subtle truths and it is a tool to help let go of craving and aversion to sensation as well and I understand I must let go of this very subtle truth as well because it is also impermanent. [Larry] Oops, just thought of another feeling: intuition. More problems. Larry [lisah]Anna-Intuition is knowing without thinking:P or is it annata one who imagines one has right insight....hahaha or "sanha--sukhuma--panna" of deep insight, one who has a fine and minute knowledge, but does that mean you must reduce 'things' down to their particle? nanan ca pana me dassanan udapadi akuppa me ceto--vimutti ayan antima jati natthi dani punabbhavo "there arose in me insight, the emancipation of my heart became unshake able, this is my last birth, there is now no rebirth for me..this is insight [lisah] dukkha vedana (unpleasant sensations) sukha vedana (pleasant sensations) adukkhamasukha vedana (neutral sensations) tanha dukkhassa sambhavam-craving is the origin of suffering, even very subtle sensation leads to suffering all vedana lead to suffering so I understand why you're asking these questions of my wonderings and scribbles about lovely sensations...lol [lisah] dukkha-samudaya// tanha dukkhassa sambhavam.=craving is suffering=vedana is suffering even the very subtle sensations and virtues are impermanent. When I wash my hands I'll put the hand soap away I will not take it with me as I go about my day. That is how I see subtle sensation and virtues they are like hand soap. Now I understand your confusion and concern Larry ;-) So how many vedanas are there? With Metta and a big hug,(thank you) Lisa 45920 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 2:01pm Subject: Re: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) buddhatrue Hi Phil, This post is a bit more difficult to respond to. I have tried to pull out the important and relevant points, but I still feel as if I have missed things. Phil: In a post to Nina, you said it was a defilement to say one can't understand nibbanna. I say it is often a defilement to want to understand it now. We're both right James: Yes, it is a defilement to want to `understand' nibbana `now'. That is a lack of patience. And it is a defilement to think "I can never, or practically never, understand nibbana". There are two sides to every issue, and this raises a lot of conflicts. Spirituality is so fraught with attachment to one's views because it is such a personal issue. I have read some stories from the Dhammapada where a monk got a meditation subject from the Buddha, and after trying with it for a while and getting no results returns to the Buddha to get a different subject. However, the Buddha, being omniscient, couldn't have been wrong about the proper subject for that monk. Conversely, being compassionate, he would probably give the monk another meditation subject if the monk asked for one (This happened more than once so the Buddha must have given monks new subjects). And some monks even argued and disagreed with the Buddha as to the meaning of the dhamma! So, of course, there are always going to be different perspectives. Phil: Now, assuming we *do* know what kusala is, why does this mean that there will therefore be more moments for kusala to arise? Because we appreciate it more, we are more liekly to recognize it, we hold it with a moment of mindfulness, and this momentary holding it conditions it to arise again? Something like that? I'm not sure. James: I'm not completely sure either, but it seems to me that insight or kusala mind states arise when the proper conditions are put into place. I do not believe that such mind states can be controlled to arise- they usually arise quite by surprise. It is only in hindsight that one might see how certain conditions allowed the insights to arise. Time, the distance between cause and effect, makes practice more difficult. What I believe are the right conditions for the arising of insight/kusala doesn't match entirely what you believe, but that is okay- we are different people at different points in our lives. Phil: You won't appreciate what she teaches unless you appreciate Abhidhamma, which you don't, so why bother? James: I don't think this is quite fair. I try to be open-minded about everything. Of course I don't believe the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma so it has some flaws- but it's not all bad. It seems to help some people to stay on the path at least. And from what I have been reading, K. Sujin doesn't just teach Abhidhamma. That is what I am saying: I think her teachings are being misrepresented. Phil: typical of this New Version James that is making people feel warm all over from Hong Kong to Timbuktoo! James: ;-)) What a cute description. Thanks. Phil: Conditions are so, so interesting. I really recomment Nina's book "Conditions", available on line. Whether you're dubious about Abdhidhamma or not, I don't know why you don't give it a try. James: Sure; I'll read it and let you know what I think. Phil: Of course. Nobody has ever denied that some people can have access-concentration and jhanas. That would be silly to deny that. It's the Buddha's teaching. And I have never heard Kh Sujin come out against seeking jhanas. What she does say, rightly I think, is that as soon as people hear about satipatthana, they want to practice it, they want to get it. There is no patience. There is only lobha then, there's isn't understanding, that sort of thing. James: But its okay to have lobha about Buddhist practice. What starts out as lobha for the practice usually turns into real insight. For example, there was a monk who couldn't stop thinking about his wife (sexual desire) and wanted to disrobe, so the Buddha took him psychically to one of the deva realms where they have very beautiful and sexy nymphs. The Buddha then asked this monk if his liked these nymphs and he said yes, so the Buddha promised him that if he continued to practice the Buddha would allow him to get some! So, it was extreme lobha, sanctioned by the Buddha which got him to practice. Later he became enlightened and released the Buddha from his promise- the monk wasn't interested anymore ;-) Phil: Spiritual materialism, as the article you once said. I don't think you suffer from this, but I know I do and if I meditated now it would be silly. But who knows - maybe someday. James: Actually meditation may not be a great idea for you at the present moment (mindfulness would be better), but I don't believe it is because of Spiritual Materialsim. It is because you might try to use meditation as a way to deflect and suppress upset feelings and anxiety. Nowadays, you seem to be doing the same thing with unauthentic (not personally realized) notions of anatta. (First beer, then loving-kindness meditation, and now notions of anatta-- mindfulness, in my opinion, is the way for you to go now—hope I'm not getting too personal, but I'm just following your lead). Phil: The reason I am picky about the way people use metta is because I value it so. The brahma-viharas are the divine abodes, I think we are moved closer to them as defilements are eradicated, there are few obstacles to their arising as defilements wear away. I beleive that metta et all will arise more through me. I aspire to it, patiently. I'm deeply intersted in Brahma-Viharas, and I believe they can have great beneficial power in the world. That's why I question how on earth people can sit down and tap into metta as though it were a bottle of milk from the fridge! James: ;-)) Funny description. The development of metta takes some practice. The first time a person tries to sit and develop metta they will get it all wrong. Let me tell you something: I used to really dislike the whole idea of metta meditation. My meditation teacher (Ajahn Somporn) tried to get me to do it and I refused. I didn't see the point and it just felt really fake to me. He tried to explain to me what my problem was at the time and I still didn't get it - but now I do. My teacher asked me who I loved the most in the whole world and I didn't know- and he told me that I should love myself before anyone else! I thought that sounded really weird and egotistical so I forgot about it. But, over the years, my view has changed: I have learned that he was right and that I couldn't do metta meditation because I didn't feel any metta for myself. I didn't like myself and because I didn't like myself I didn't like other people. This is something that I still work on (like Lisa, I had a very screwed up upbringing), but at least I work on it. I believe that metta can be purposefully generated and extended/radiated to others- but first you must learn to have metta for yourself. Phil: Another long one. Sorry about that. James: No problem. Hope I didn't miss anything important. Metta, James 45921 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! dacostacharles Hi Tep and Htoo, The problem with this suttra, and most like it, is that it assumes that if there was a soul, it would have power and dominion over the rest of the being. Those that believe in a soul do not believe the soul has such, they tend to view the soul the same way that some Buddhist view re-birth-consciousness. In fact, if you look at definition 3 below, you will see that the soul is thought of as having an existence of its own. That to me means it has no influence on the physical or mental world. And definition 4 (i.e., Emotional part of human nature, as distinguished from the intellect.) list two of what Buddhist all over the world accept as aggregates of humans. And definition 5 (i.e., Spiritual or emotional warmth, force, or energy.) is also not what the Buddha was considering as a soul. And the rest, 1-3, 5-..., where not the souls that the Buddha declared non-existent. I am bring up these points because we need to be careful when declaring the truth of a doctrine. If I believe the soul to be one of the above definitions, the only thing you could have claimed was I had the wrong concept (i.e., name) or the wrong definition of a soul. The above definitions (except the word "spiritual") are acceptable concepts, or realities (if you prefer), to most Buddhist. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 12 May, 2005 16:25 Subject: [dsg] The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! ... Hello Htoo and everyone - What is soul? According to my MacMillan Dictionary, there are 9 meanings! 1) Spiritual part of human beings as distinguished from the physical. 2) Moral or spiritual part of human beings considered in relation to God, believed to be immortal and to separate from the body at death. 3) Spirit of a dead person, thought of as having an existence of its own. 4) Emotional part of human nature, as distinguished from the intellect. 5) Spiritual or emotional warmth, force, or energy. 6) Essential, fundamental, or animating part; vital element. 7) One who leads or inspires. 8) One who is considered to embody a certain quality; personification. 9) Person. ... Question: What did the Buddha say precisely about his No-soul principle, and what was/were his reason(s) to say so? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, The Buddha taught to His first 5 disciples like this. 'Physical phenomena are non-soul's?' 'If they are soul's, they may have been what the soul wants them to be.' 'Is that right or wrong disciples?' ''It is right that physical phenomena are all non-soul's teachers.'' 'Disciples, feelings are non-soul's' 'If feelings are soul's, they they may have been what the soul wants them to be. That is this good feeling arises here and that bad feeling do not arise there and the soul may have the power of control. But it is not the case. So feelings are non-soul's'. 'Is that right or wrong, disciples?' ''It is right that feelings are non-soul's as you said teacher.'' 'Perceptions are non-soul's, disciples' ---- 'Formations are non-soul's, disciples' ---- 'Consciousness are non-soul's disciples' ---- These are the principles of No-soul. ... With friendship, Htoo 45922 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? dacostacharles Hi Htoo, I don't really want to be my usually self and rush an answer to you. There is a book, by a Tai forest monk, I want to get. It answers all of your questions. I can only remember parts so I can only give you snips of it for now. Next week I will try to really answer you questions, more from my experiences -- At least until I get my hand on that book again. SOME QUICK AND DIRTY ANSWERS FOR NOW: Your summary question/point: "... D.O is rotating ... also rotating in arahats ... And ... is 'moment to moment' D.O." Moment to moment DO refers to the birth and rebirth of mental and physical states like (pain, sickness, anger, jealously, love, calm, ...). The most common 12 links describe the process from ignorance (not seeing how to break the cycle) to suffering, and suffering causing more ignorance. This is because the attachment that triggered them is reborn as other states, or even as the same state. This could even happen when a different event occurs -attachment- that a similar link can be concocted to. E.g. You start to suffer pain and anguish when you hear that your most loved one has been killed. The anguish starts to die (decays/gets old/gets sick) when you hear the police caught the guy, some relief is born. In court you see the guy (contact). This gives birth to hate. During the court case, it appears as though the guy might get away with it on a technicality. So hate gives way to aggression and a need for revenge. This gave rise to more ignorance (now you are not willing to break the cycle). ... In life to life (e.g., Upon dieing you suffer -regret- and crave life. This gives rise to entering a womb -becoming- and rebirth). Regret and craving life are the results of karma. In arhants, one must remember that: 1. Instead of ignorance there is wisdom; 2. Arhants see things as they are so they don't concoct; 3. instead of attachment there is detachment; 2. instead of craving there is calm; 3. instead of suffering (...) there is faith. At some point there is bliss born from knowing and living the way. ... gives rise to -faith in the way- ... gives rise to more wisdom. This is both in terms of moment to moment and life to life (because arhant don't become attached to things, they don't seek birth -there is no birth- no womb to draw them in save nibbia/narvana). Remind me to explain this stuff better next week CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 22 May, 2005 00:57 Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? ... Dear Charles, My questions are 1. Dependent Origination or 'paticca-samuppaada' has 12 links and it is rotating. What are these 12 links in puthujana or ordinary people? 2. Dependent Origination or 'paticca-samuppaada' also happen in arahats. It continues with remaining links of D.O. Arahats do not have tanha and avijja. What are the links in case of arahats? 3. As a continuation of question 2, how do those remaining links rotate the D.O? 4. Some claim that D.O is also working 'moment to moment'. There is 'moment to moment D.O'. If so, what are the links of 'moment to moment D.O'? I hope this is a good summary of questions that embedded in my earlier message. With respect, Htoo Naing 45923 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 22, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cutting off sankhara at feeling lbidd2 Hi Phil, I see dependent arising as a process that conditions future lives. As such, the 'cutting off' or ceasing of a link is a path moment and, in the case of an arahant, the end of that entire process; though there usually is further conditioned arising. In the suttas the ceasing usually beings with ignorance: 'with the cessation of ignorance, volitional formations cease', etc. I believe I have also seen it begin with craving: with the cessation of 'craving clinging ceases', etc. Also there is the jhana of neither perception nor feeling and the attainment (samapatti) of the extinction of feeling and perception. I don't know if these could be objects of insight (maybe). But I agree there could be insight into any link, including feeling, and if it was sufficiently penetrating it would lead to a consciousness of nibbana and the end of the entire rebirth conditioning process, the round of suffering, (but not necessarily all elements of the process until 'khandha parinibbana'). Larry 45924 From: connie Date: Sun May 22, 2005 11:35pm Subject: Re: Htoo's Dts -- Sarah's caught up! nichiconn to whom it concerns ;) In response to 45694, wherein Htoo and Sarah "Hmmm" and Sarah quotes part of the following* & writes: In the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha it just mentions `death as a result of the final exhaustion of the life-span as defined for a particular destiny, although the power of kamma still exists, is death due to exhaustion of life-span." *"CMA p220 Guide to $34" >> THE ADVENT OF DEATH: Death is formally defined as the cutting off of the life faculty (jiivitindriya) included w/in the limits of a single existence. THROUGH THE EXPIRATION OF THE LIFE-SPAN: This is the kind of death that comes about for the beings in those realms of existence where the life-span is bounded by a definite limit (see $$12, 14, 16). In the human realm too this should be understood as death in advanced old age due to natural causes. If the productive kamma is still not exhausted when death takes place through reaching the maximum age, the kammic force can generate another rebirth on the same plane or on some higher plane as in the case of the devas. THROUGH THE EXPIRATION OF THE (PRODUCTIVE) KAMMIC FORCE: This is the kind of death that takes place when the kamma generating rebirth expends its force even though the normal life-span is not exhausted & there are otherwise favourable conditions for the prolongation of life. When both the life-span and kammic force simultaneously come to an end, this is death by the . THROUGH (THE INTERVENTION OF) A DESTRUCTIVE KAMMA: This is a term for the death that occurs when a powerful destructive kamma cuts off the force of the rebirth-generating kamma even before the expiration of the life-span (see $18). The first 3 types of death are known as timely death (akaalamara.na). An oil lamp, for example, may be extinguished due to the the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of the oil, the simultaneous exhaustion of both, or some extraneous cause, like a gust of wind. << Connie, hmmm'ing in turn, has no real comment but copies the following: p313 Points of Controversy: Of Arahants and Untimely Death - there is no untimely death for an Arahant. end of footnote (p314): .... For the opponents akaala (untimely) meant one thing, for the Theravaadin another. To judge by the Theragaathaa Commentary (Pss. of the Brethren, pp. 232, 266), the orthodox opinion was that no one, in his last span of life, could die before attaining Arahantship. Dispeller >> 1209: As regards the word VIHARATI <194.30> ("dwells"), herein without asking the question: 'What is a dwelling?' he said IRIYATI ("bears himself"), teaching by means of a discourse which is concerned with a person (puggalaadhi.t.thaanaa desananaa). {46} The meaning of that is that because of being possesssed of some one out of the 4 postures (iriyaapatha) he bears himself (iriyati). By means of these tetrads of postures, VATTATI ("he proceeds") with the procedure of the body-cart. PAALETI ("he guards") because of protecting the body by means of long endurance thru getting rid of the suffering of one posture by means of another posture; YAPETI ("he carries on") because of proceeding in all the postures through not settling down in one posture; YAAPETI ("he maintains") because of the maintaining of the body in such and such wise with this or that posture; CARATI ("he wanders") because of causing to proceed for a long time; VIHARATI <194.31> ("he dwells") because of prolonging (hara.na) life by interrupting (vicchinditvaa) posture by posture. 2248. The ruler of the earth, wandering about, having put on his head the chamber pot, is the destiny of whom? It is the destiny of one with right means. He understands that while unable to give result owing to being inhibited by unsuccessful means in this way, they ripen when a successful means is arrived at. In this way the good deeds which, being inhibited by the four kinds of failure, do not ripen, do so on arrival at the four kinds of success. 2255. IDA.M TATHAAGATASSA <339.5> ("this is the Tathaagata's"): this Tathaagata's knowledge consisiting of knowing in all these ways the kamma interval and the kamma-result interval shold be understood as the second power in the sense of non-wavering. {78} << Venerable Ledi Sayaadaw's "Dhamma Diipanii": >> ... Both arisen and unarisen unwholesome kammas will not lose their power if personality view still exists. They are bound to increase due to wrong understanding of the nature of the five aggregates. So if circumstances are favourable, one will commit various crimes, great or small, propelled by wrong view. When personality view is eradicated, all past evil deeds and their potential results are destroyed totally. Countless evil actions cease. The ten evil deeds and the five heinous crimes are based on personality view. Personality view is their leader. Evil deeds are its followers, and its consequences. Can one entertain any hope of cessation of evils or deliverance? If one encounters the Buddha’s dispensation in this life and practises insight meditation, one is delivered from personality view, root and branch. All past evils are wiped away, and countless effects of past evil that were due to mature also cease. Total eradication of evil is possible in this dispensation only because correct methods have been given. Human beings possess the rarest chance to overcome this appalling predicament. During this dispensation, good and rare chances are available for the destruction of countless new evils that are bound to arise in the future. All latent evils are uprooted by mindfulness as taught by the Buddha. If these methods and rare opportunities exist, it is called the Buddha’s dispensation. The dispensation is said to disappear when such opportunities no longer exist. Everyone should note that if death occurs today and life continues in an existence where these opportunities don’t exist, the dispensation disappears today. In this case the opportunities of this dispensation are lost as soon as one dies. << peace. 45925 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun May 22, 2005 11:54pm Subject: short stories from my place gazita2002 Hello Dhamma friends, first story: last nite I had a campfire in my backyard - i have a large yard with bushland at the back - it was full moon, Wesak Day. a beautiful nite, bright white moonlight. one of my friends asked what should we be doing for Buddha's birthday etc. i thought of all the rites and rituals that happen in various buddhists places that I have been. my answer was that the best thing we could do was to understand the Buddha's teachings. no more questions were asked, not from anyone in the group and there were 6 of us. so i said no more either and the conversation went on to other things, like governments, fruit trees, food, sex - you know, the usual chat. we want to 'do' something so having a practice, a 'something to do' satisfies us - for a while. second story: the local post office, personed by one man - so i could use the word 'manned' - has a small box on the counter for coins. you know, the ones we get when we receive change of a note. this collection of coins are there for anyone who comes to the post office and just doesn't have the right money to do their purchasing, they can use these coins. the box stays full due to the people who receive coins in change and then put these coins in the box. so its like the people helping each other without knowing who they are helping. a random act of dana. may we all be well and happy, azita 45926 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 23, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's Dts -- Sarah's caught up! nilovg Dear Connie, thank you for the very good texts with reminders, Nina. op 23-05-2005 08:35 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > *"CMA p220 Guide to $34" >>> > THE ADVENT OF DEATH: Death is formally defined as the cutting off of the > life faculty (jiivitindriya) included w/in the limits of a single > existence. 45927 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: Htoo's Dts -- Sarah's caught up! htootintnaing Dear Connie, Sarah and all, Thanks Connie for your message of Ledi's; 'Venerable Ledi Sayaadaw's "Dhamma Diipanii": >> ... Both arisen and unarisen unwholesome kammas will not lose their power if personality view still exists. They are bound to increase due to wrong understanding of the nature of the five aggregates. So if circumstances are favourable, one will commit various crimes, great or small, propelled by wrong view. When personality view is eradicated, all past evil deeds and their potential results are destroyed totally. Countless evil actions cease. The ten evil deeds and the five heinous crimes are based on personality view.Personality view is their leader. Evil deeds are its followers, and its consequences. Can one entertain any hope of cessation of evils or deliverance? If one encounters the Buddha’s dispensation in this life and practises insight meditation, one is delivered from personality view, root and branch. All past evils are wiped away, and countless effects of past evil that were due to mature also cease. Total eradication of evil is possible in this dispensation only because correct methods have been given. Human beings possess the rarest chance to overcome this appalling predicament. During this dispensation, good and rare chances are available for the destruction of countless new evils that are bound to arise in the future. All latent evils are uprooted by mindfulness as taught by the Buddha. If these methods and rare opportunities exist, it is called the Buddha’s dispensation. The dispensation is said to disappear when such opportunities no longer exist. Everyone should note that if death occurs today and life continues in an existence where these opportunities don’t exist, the dispensation disappears today. In this case the opportunities of this dispensation are lost as soon as one dies. << peace. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Connie has a good source of references. When I read the above passages, I felt like that they all have been read some time ago in my past. This is not 'De j`a vu' phenomena. I have read in Myanmar long time ago. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45928 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 2:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Htoo, In arhants, one must remember that: 1. Instead of ignorance there is wisdom; 2. Arhants see things as they are so they don't concoct; 3. instead of attachment there is detachment; 2. instead of craving there is calm; 3. instead of suffering (...) there is faith. At some point there is bliss born from knowing and living the way. ... gives rise to -faith in the way- ... gives rise to more wisdom. This is both in terms of moment to moment and life to life (because arhant don't become attached to things, they don't seek birth -there is no birth- no womb to draw them in save nibbia/narvana). Remind me to explain this stuff better next week CharlesD -------------------- Dear Charles D, Thanks. I will probably remind if I am there on the net. Anyway I got some clues because of your short message. 'Life to life' D.O and 'moment to moment' D.O are, I think, the same. In which way? In the way of linking. What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to moment events. D.O experts are away from DSG, I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: There are people who claim to see D.O during meditation sessions, :-)) 45929 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to > moment events. ... S: At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja (ignorance)? When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or akusala? Metta, Sarah ====== 45930 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (417) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the fourth jhaana or the 4th material absorptive state of mind there are only 2 jhaana factors even though there are other cetasikas or mental associates or mental accompaniments or mental factors that help citta or consciousness. These 2 jhaana factors are sukha or tranquility and ekaggataa or one- pointedness or fixitive-to-object or samaadhi. When jhaanas are compared each other there are 4 different jhaaba so far we have talked in Dhamma Thread posts recently. 1st jhaana has 1. initial-application(vitakka) 2. sustained-application(vicaara) 3. suffused-joy(piiti) 4. tranquility-peace(sukha) 5. one-pointedness(ekaggataa) Vitakka or initial-application may well apply to other object rather than jhaana and it has the potnetial to distract jhaana to sensuous sphere again. So jhaana without vitakka (initial-application) is more refined than jhaana without vitakka (initial-application). So 2nd jhaana is more refined than 1st jhaana. 2nd jhaana includes 1. sustained-application(vicaara) 2. suffused-joy(piiti) 3. tranquility-peace(sukha) 4. one-pointedness(ekaggataa) Sustained-application or vicaara is a close frined of vitakka or initial-application. Presence of sustained-application may invite vitakka or initial application at any time. If this happens there does exist the danger of falling back to 1st jhaana and this again may be drawn back to sensuous sphere again. When vicaara or sustained-application is eliminated, more refined 3rd jhaana is achieved. 3rd jhaana comprises 1. suffused-joy (piiti) 2. tranquility-peace(sukha) 3. one-pointedness(ekaggataa) When piiti or joy is compared with tranquility and ekaggataa piiti seems to have a shakely quality because it suffuses the whole body and mind and wanders round. This shakable quality has a potential to meet vitakka and vicaara again and then 3rd jhaana may be dragged down to 2nd jhaana and then to 1st jhaana, which again is quite close to sensuous sphere. When piiti or joy is eliminated, more refined 4th jhaana is achieved. 4th jhaana constitutes 1. tranquility-peace(sukha) 2. one-pointedness(ekaggataa) There are 26 meditational objects that may give rise to 1st jhaana. They are 10 kasinas, 10 asubhas, 1 kaayagatasati, 1 aanaapaanasati and 4 brahmavihaaras. But there are 15 meditational objects that can give rise to 2nd jhaana and they are 10 kasinas, 1 aanaapaanasati and 4 brahmavihaaras. 3rd jhaana and 4th jhaana can also be attained by cultivating these 15 meditational objects to more and more refined level. Exception is that upekkhaa-brahmavihaara is normally not a sole meditation to develop 1st jhaana, 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhaana. But it has to be associated with one of 3 other pure-living meditations. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45931 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] short stories from my place sarahprocter... Hi Azita and Qld DSGers, You didn't join the cooran Vesak meeting, but you still had your campfire and I like your stories:-) --- gazita2002 wrote: >my answer was that the best thing we could do was to understand > the Buddha's teachings. no more questions were asked, not from anyone > in the group and there were 6 of us. so i said no more either and the > conversation went on to other things, like governments, fruit trees, > food, sex - you know, the usual chat. > we want to 'do' something so having a practice, a 'something to > do' satisfies us - for a while. .... :-) Hmm, obviously other topics had more appeal....Look f/w to more of your stories. The second post office one reminded me of my mother's idyllic English country village. She has a thatched post office which is only occasionally 'manned'....Yesterday I called her as she had just returned from church and was making large quantities of lemon curd for the village fete and open gardens next week. She'd never locked her cottage and was really shocked when it was burgled a few years ago -- 'outsiders' of course and now she rather resentfully makes a token effort to do so, but really leaves it to her neighbours 'to keep an eye out' on all her antiques when she goes away. Anyway, hope to be back to replies tomorrow. Meanwhile, Cooranites, looking forward to hearing about your discussions and further bonfire tales. metta, Sarah p.s Lisa, great post back to me...glad to see you and Larry discussing it further...more in due course. Connie, thx for your help. Htoo & all, I have a stack of your posts waiting for more attention....:). ======= 45932 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (418) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When 4th jhaana is proficiated with 5 kinds of jhaana exercises there becomes evident that one of 2 jhaana factors in 4th rupa jhaana is not as calm as the other. There are 2 jhaana factors in 4th rupa jhana. They are tranquility-peace (sukha) and one-pointedness or fixative (ekaggataa). When sukha or peace is compared with ekaggataa, it becomes eveident through paccavakkhana vasi or scrutinization jhaana exercise that peace is less calm then one-pointedness which is like an ironic mountain and will never be shakable. When compared with ekaggataa or one-pointedness it will become evident that sukha or peace does have a potential power to associate again with piiti or joy and this again will draw back to 2nd jhaana and 1st jhaana with re-arising of vitakka and vicaara and 1st jhaana is very close to sensuous sphere, which is a great great danger to jhaana. So any jhaana practitioner has to practise their jhaana to a proficient level and they have to refine their jhaana so that they are free of danger of vanishing of jhaana. When sukha or peace is seen in such a way that it should be dropped from the jhaana components, the jhaana practitioner will try again his refined jhaana to much much more refined level with 'ekaggataa' jhaana factor only. When there are conditions and the mind becomes calm and absorbed again with only ekaggata as jhaana factors then it can be called as 5th rupa jhaana. In this 5th rupa jhaana there also is a feeling as any consciousness has a feeling. This feeling is very subtle and it is equanimous feeling and it is taken as upekkha-jhaana factors. So 5th rupa jhaana is said to have 2 jhaana factors of upekkha and ekaggataa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45933 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread (419) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 5th ruupa jhaana has to base on 4th ruupa jhaana. 4th ruupa jhaana has been attained through the practice of mental cultivation on 10 kasinas, 1 aanaapaanasati or breathing meditation, and 4 brahmavihaara or 4 pure- living meditations. When 4th ruupa jhaana has to be refined so that 5th ruupa jhaana can arise any of 10 kasinas or anapanasati or breathing meditation can be used. In case of brahmavihaara or pure-living meditation 3 meditations that is metta or loving-kindness, karuna or compassion, muditaa or appreciation can no more be used to ascend up to 5th ruupa jhaana. Karuna and mudita have their specific object. Karuna takes the object of pannatti called satta-pannatti or sattas or beings in despair or beings in poor conditions. This object does not help in development of equanimity. Likewise muditaa which takes the object of beings in prosperity cannot help developing equanimity. So these 2 vihaara cannot be used to ascend up to 5th ruupa jhaana. Metta is a universal beautiful cetasika called adosa. But when 5th ruupa jhaana is to be achieved metta is not the main focus to develop even though metta always invloves in any of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th jhaana. For 5th ruupa jhaana to be developed upekkha-brahmavihaara is the main vihaara that helps arising of 5th ruupa jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45934 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > What I want to know is at molecular level of D.O with moment to > > moment events. > ... > S: At this moment, is there any understanding of any dhammas or avijja > (ignorance)? > > When there is avijja, are the cittas kusala or akusala? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, That is 'avijjaa nirodho sankhaara nirodho'. When there is cessation of ignorance then formation also cease to arise. And this leads to stoppage of the whole circle temporarily. It is satipatthaana that stops the circle. 'Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. There is no self. There is no atta. So there is no abhijjaa and no domanassa. So there is no need to depend on anything at all and this is anissita and this is temporary liberation because of satipatthaana. Satipatthaana and D.O are interconnected. Dhamma Threads are trying to wind up dhammas. Dhamma Threads will be leading to realization throught motivation. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am sending a vehicle to go to Nibbana and enjoy 'the Journey To Nibbana'. 45935 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 3. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I continue with our series. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Satipatthana are kaayaanupassana or contemplation on the body, > > vedanaanupassana or contemplation on feeling, cittaanupassanaa or > > contemplation on the mind, dhammaanupassanaa or contemplation on the > > dhamma that arise. > > S=> > What is `contemplation' and what is `body', `feeling', `mind' > and `dhamma'? Are there ever concepts as object of satipatthana? > -------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > These are The Buddha's words. There are separate 21 sessions. > > a) 14 sessions are contemplation on the body > b) 1 session is contemplation on the feeling > c) 1 session is contemplation on the mind > d) 5 session is contemplation on the dhamma that arise > > Contemplation is 'mental review'. Anu means 'detailed' and passana > means 'contemplation'. +Sukin: (This is partly responding to dialogue 4 as well) In one of your earlier posts, you seem to have agreed with the descriptive/prescriptive distinction I made. If so, what about it that you agreed with? Elsewhere, if I remember right, in one of your DTs you talked about `contemplation on different parts of the body' and said that the parts described was not exhaustive and that even though not mentioned, other parts could be contemplated too. I bring these two points up because according to my understanding, the Satipatthana Sutta is *not* an instruction to "do" anything, less so prescribing following a programmed activity where one type of contemplation is followed by another. I think it is a "description" of conditions with no expectation that any of these will be followed at any particular time by any particular person. Hence the idea of a fixed time, i.e. formal sitting, or informal practice or even something to do `through out the day' is necessarily going against this idea about Dhamma being a description of *all* realities. `All' here includes any jati which may appear "now". One implication of this is that instead of being driven by an idea about following a `planned' activity and trying to catch realities, sati can arise at this very moment and know the very reality which is trying to know. This seems to be what is missed, like the fact that the `eye cannot see itself'. The `intention' to observe does not make it right, nor can any wrong somehow evolve to being right later on. And instead of being aware of *this* present moment, there is awareness of a `projection'. Of course it would seem to be like knowing the present moment, but this is probably because it is more real than anything else we know. Ask any person who has not meditated nor studied the dhamma, he will `tell you that he knows the present moment'. This is what I responded to in Larry post, when I started posting this time around. It is from the understanding that until and unless one has experienced the *real* present moment, real progress cannot be made. And if there is no right pariyatti to at least appreciate this fact, then we are indeed going the wrong way. The details in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the fact that it is divided into different sessions, is not so that we need to `follow' all. It is just describing as much as possible, in order to remind us that "every thing (the khandhas), which we used to take wrongly as `self'", should be perceived and understood differently, i.e. the way they actually are. And this is the way that the khandhas will then gradually not be taken for `self'. Also consider this Htoo, this Sutta was preceded by many, many other Suttas and teachings. Were it meant to be a `prescription', then why was not such a Sutta part of the very first set of the Buddha's Teachings. Did the Buddha make up his mind to teach the `average' person only latter after he taught the more advanced? Were the Dhamma as simple and straight forward as you seem to make it sound, then there would indeed have been very few during the Buddha's time who could not become enlightened? It is precisely the subtleness and depth of the Dhamma, which caused so many to continue with their wrong view then and more so now. The interpretation of the Teachings in general and hence in particular the Satipatthana Sutta, is symptomatic of such wrong understanding, the inability to appreciate this subtleness and depth. But you won't agree, I know ;-). ========================= Htoo: > The Buddha did not preach in Mahasatipatthaana 'this is pannatti' > 'this is paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you do not contemplate on > pannati' 'bhikkhus you just see paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you just > see naama and ruupa'. > > Suttas are vohara desana or pannatta desana. Without words no one can > speak. Without words there is no way to instruct. Written scripts are > equivalent of spoken words. +Sukin: I am not sure about your point? Sure, like most other Suttas, this too is conventional language. But like other Sutta, it is pointing to dhammas, no? The audience of the above Sutta did not have to be told about the pannatti/paramattha distinction, so the Buddha did not have to state it out. But even you have to remind over and over again, to some long terms meditators at that ;-), about this distinction, don't you? We in this day, are the `slow ones' Htoo. We are swimming in the ocean of concepts. Let us be grateful for every reminder about this distinction that we can get. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 45936 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:09am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 4. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > > Htoo: > > The Buddha's path is valid, reproducible, right at any time. > > S=> > If you mean the Buddha's path as in the development of sati and panna, > then wouldn't you agree that when it is not satipatthana [or at least > understanding intellectually what this is], > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > :-)) :-)) :-)) Why do you 'at least' here? +Sukin: :-) Because patipatti cannot arise without pariyatti. =========================== > Sukin: > And can any `self' reproduce this path? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Let me see 'self'. =Sukin: Lobha and Ditthi. =========================== > Sukin: > When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to > `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There is no 'Htoo' at all. But regarding satipatthaana path the > results are reproducible for anyone. +Sukin: No Htoo, no Sariputta, but there are "dhammas" and not all dhammas bring the same results. The question however is, with Sariputta it was Sati and panna, is it the same with Htoo? Do note though, that I wouldn't have questioned your practice, had you not at the same time been encouraging others to do `conventional practices'. ============================ > Sukin: > Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that > with the path being reproduced? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > When I was talking conventioanlly you do not follow. But now you are > asking 'conventional activity'. What is conventional activity? +Sukin: Conventional activity, is any activity involving conventional realities, i.e. `selves' acting upon `situations'. I see no problem with living and acting conventionally, in fact we *must*. What I object to is the understanding that the practice involves some conventional activity such as formal sitting, walking meditation or eating slowly. These are in fact a consequence of the idea that development of understanding can take place by `intentionally trying to be aware'. It is therefore on this level that any correcting of views need to take place according to my understanding. ============================== Htoo: > But anyone who follows mahasatipatthaana path that is who > contemplates on the body in connection with 14 contemplation, on the > feeling, on the mind, on the dhamma that arise they will see the > results. ( These results are reproduced as The Buddha discovered). > > The Buddha clearly preached that > > 'contemplation on the body ( 14 sessions)' > 'contemplation on the feeling' > 'contemplation on the mind' > 'contemplation on the dhamma that arise' will lead to achievement of > arahatta magga and if there is remanents of defilements then it will > lead to achievement of anagami magga. +Sukin: I have addressed this part in Dialogue 3. And yes, the practice can lead to arahatta magga. What we are in fact trying to determine is "what indeed does the practice constitute". ;-) Metta, Sukinder 45937 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 3. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin (and interested members), Our discussion continues. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, I continue with our series. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > These are The Buddha's words. There are separate 21 sessions. > a) 14 sessions are contemplation on the body > b) 1 session is contemplation on the feeling > c) 1 session is contemplation on the mind > d) 5 session is contemplation on the dhamma that arise > Contemplation is 'mental review'. Anu means 'detailed' and passana > means 'contemplation'. Sukin(23.05.05): +Sukin: (This is partly responding to dialogue 4 as well) In one of your earlier posts, you seem to have agreed with the descriptive/prescriptive distinction I made. If so, what about it that you agreed with? Elsewhere, if I remember right, in one of your DTs you talked about `contemplation on different parts of the body' and said that the parts described was not exhaustive and that even though not mentioned, other parts could be contemplated too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Every word of The Buddha is meaningful. The Buddha did preach to contemplate on 32 parts of the body. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) I bring these two points up because according to my understanding, the Satipatthana Sutta is *not* an instruction to "do" anything, less so prescribing following a programmed activity where one type of contemplation is followed by another. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is a complete and beautiful description. The Buddha did not say 'Do this session first and then do this next and do that after'. But each session is a programme activity. Each activity is very very useful. Otherwise The Buddha would not have preached them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) I think it is a "description" of conditions with no expectation that any of these will be followed at any particular time by any particular person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I must ask you what do you mean by 'expectation'? 'Chandavato ki.m naama kamma.m na sijjhati?' ''Sijjhati eva.'' If you do not have a right direction then you will be wandering round the samsara forever. Expectation is required. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) Hence the idea of a fixed time, i.e. formal sitting, or informal practice or even something to do `through out the day' is necessarily going against this idea about Dhamma being a description of *all* realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Realities are what realised through activities when there are effort, mindfulness, discernment and clear understanding. In terms of realities, there is no one, no thing, no activity and nothing to discuss. Only nama and rupa arise and fall away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) `All' here includes any jati which may appear "now". One implication of this is that instead of being driven by an idea about following a `planned' activity and trying to catch realities, sati can arise at this very moment and know the very reality which is trying to know. This seems to be what is missed, like the fact that the `eye cannot see itself'. The `intention' to observe does not make it right, nor can any wrong somehow evolve to being right later on. And instead of being aware of *this* present moment, there is awareness of a `projection'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Can panna see 'pannaself'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) Of course it would seem to be like knowing the present moment, but this is probably because it is more real than anything else we know. Ask any person who has not meditated nor studied the dhamma, he will `tell you that he knows the present moment'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is 'apare vadii'. It is like 'argument on gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. 'Ask any person who has not meditated nor studied the dhamma, he will ''tell you that he knows when he goes''.' 'Kaama.m so.na singaalaadayopi gacchantaa gacchaamaati jaananti'. It is right that even foxes or dogs may know when they go as they go. But the sutta says 'pajaanaati'. Likewise 'present moment is known by meditators' is not exactly equal to 'present moment is known by non-dhamma-seekers'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) This is what I responded to in Larry post, when I started posting this time around. It is from the understanding that until and unless one has experienced the *real* present moment, real progress cannot be made. And if there is no right pariyatti to at least appreciate this fact, then we are indeed going the wrong way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Realities are known through the activities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) The details in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the fact that it is divided into different sessions, is not so that we need to `follow' all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you are rejecting what The Buddha preached and you are not to follow what The Buddha preached. You explicitly mentioned 'is not so that we need to 'follow' all. So you will follow some own-selected part of what The Buddha taught? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) It is just describing as much as possible, in order to remind us that "every thing (the khandhas), which we used to take wrongly as `self'", should be perceived and understood differently, i.e. the way they actually are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Khandhas are not seen by logic. Khandhas are seen only by satipatthaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) And this is the way that the khandhas will then gradually not be taken for `self'. Also consider this Htoo, this Sutta was preceded by many, many other Suttas and teachings. Were it meant to be a `prescription', then why was not such a Sutta part of the very first set of the Buddha's Teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In the first set of Dhamma there were 5 as audience. And these 5 are perfected. Even in that first set there were many inclusive dhamma that overlap with dhamma in satipatthaana sutta. The villagers of Kammaasadhamma were so bright that they used to practise vipassanaa and attained sainthood like sotapanna, sakadaagam, anaagam etc. This means that there had been many dhamma preachings before preaching of mahasatipatthaana sutta. Actually satipatthaana had been preached many many times. But mahasatipatthaana is a comprehensive doctrine for all level of beings. That is why satipatthaana was named as 'mahaasatipatthaana sutta' and as it was so long it was put in long discourses. It is a comprehensive manual of The Buddha's practice. So each and every part has to be given a great attention and admiration. I admire The Buddha words. I do not know whether you do or not. But what I frequently heard here at DSG is that 'activities' are denied. Maybe I am writing wrong things? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) Did the Buddha make up his mind to teach the `average' person only latter after he taught the more advanced? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is your logic? I said mahasatipatthaana sutta is a comprehensive manual of The Buddha's practice. As it seems like a manual it suits to all level of people whether beginners or the advanced. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) Were the Dhamma as simple and straight forward as you seem to make it sound, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Am I saying ever so? Just to help all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) then there would indeed have been very few during the Buddha's time who could not become enlightened? It is precisely the subtleness and depth of the Dhamma, which caused so many to continue with their wrong view then and more so now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: A slice of brick and a piece of sand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) The interpretation of the Teachings in general and hence in particular the Satipatthana Sutta, is symptomatic of such wrong understanding, the inability to appreciate this subtleness and depth. But you won't agree, I know ;-). ========================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you are referring me that I do have wrong view, utterly wrong view and I seem to assume that Dhamma is too easy and teaching to people wrong things and when you examined me what I manifested was I am holding the wrong view? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) > Htoo: > The Buddha did not preach in Mahasatipatthaana 'this is pannatti' > 'this is paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you do not contemplate on > pannati' 'bhikkhus you just see paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you > just > see naama and ruupa'. > Suttas are vohara desana or pannatta desana. Without words no one > can > speak. Without words there is no way to instruct. Written scripts are > equivalent of spoken words. Sukin(23.05.05) +Sukin: I am not sure about your point? Sure, like most other Suttas, this too is conventional language. But like other Sutta, it is pointing to dhammas, no? The audience of the above Sutta did not have to be told about the pannatti/paramattha distinction, so the Buddha did not have to state it out. But even you have to remind over and over again, to some long terms meditators at that ;-), about this distinction, don't you? We in this day, are the `slow ones' Htoo. We are swimming in the ocean of concepts. Let us be grateful for every reminder about this distinction that we can get. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) Like 'Khin Gyi Pauk'. There was a man who was very enthusiastic to become a Sammasambuddha. He was Khin Gyi Pauk. He went to a forest and built a hut and there he was trying to become a Sammasambuddha. Once there came 2 drunkards. They were singing. 'Ripe are a ten, riping 500, after that are we two. After we gone, there would follow, so so trying out, Khin Gyi Pauk'. Khin Gyi Pauk thought that 'O! Right. There are 10 Bodhisattas who are already perfected and they are ripe. After that are 500 beginners Bodhisattas. And then these 2 drunkards would follow as Sammasambuddha. After they gone, I would become a Sammasambuddha. While my 2 foregoing brother Bodhisattas are still drinking, why should I bother to become a Sammasambuddha right now. I have to quit my recluse-hood and I will go relaxed. Haa Haa Haa'. So you think you are a slow one and you are in the middle of the mess. Come on children! Let us go to the zoo! Get in the car! And drive away. Be mindful while you drive. But do not control anything. ;-) With great respect, Htoo Naing PS: I really appreciate your discussion. 45938 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 9:03am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 4. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin (and interested members), The discussion continues: With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, > S=> If you mean the Buddha's path as in the development of sati and panna,then wouldn't you agree that when it is not satipatthana [or at least understanding intellectually what this is], ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > :-)) :-)) :-)) Why do you 'at least' here? Sukin(23.05.05) +Sukin: :-) Because patipatti cannot arise without pariyatti. =========================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I think is 'laziness'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > And can any `self' reproduce this path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Let me see 'self'. Sukin(23.05.05) =Sukin: Lobha and Ditthi. =========================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon? Are lobha and ditthi self? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends > to > `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There is no 'Htoo' at all. But regarding satipatthaana path the > results are reproducible for anyone. Sukin(23.05.05) +Sukin: No Htoo, no Sariputta, but there are "dhammas" and not all dhammas bring the same results. The question however is, with Sariputta it was Sati and panna, is it the same with Htoo? Do note though, that I wouldn't have questioned your practice, had you not at the same time been encouraging others to do `conventional practices'. ============================ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Generalization and specification. When specify there is no similarities between anything. There are infinite cittas and they are different. There have been many paths are they are different. Because they are considered as individual thing. No individual is never identical to another individual. This is specification. There are only 89 cittas or 121 cittas. No more than those. There is a single Pathway to Nibbana. It is satipatthaana. This is generalization. When I talked about 'turtle and fish' regarding nibbana, someone wrote to me off-list that there are many paths to Nibbana as there are many paths to go ashore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Sukin: > > Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that > > with the path being reproduced? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > When I was talking conventioanlly you do not follow. But now you are > > asking 'conventional activity'. What is conventional activity? Sukin(23.05.05) +Sukin: Conventional activity, is any activity involving conventional realities, i.e. `selves' acting upon `situations'. I see no problem with living and acting conventionally, in fact we *must*. What I object to is the understanding that the practice involves some conventional activity such as formal sitting, walking meditation or eating slowly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think these activites are very allergic to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) These are in fact a consequence of the idea that development of understanding can take place by `intentionally trying to be aware'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Chandavato ki.m naama kamma.m na sijjhati? Sijjhati eva.' No intention --> no motivation. No motivation --> no movement. No movement --> no action. No action --> doing nothing. Doing nothing will never reach Nibbana ever. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) It is therefore on this level that any correcting of views need to take place according to my understanding. ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Your understanding is already very very high. I am not saying ironically. You are really high. I am not saying non-sense thing. I say you are already very high in understanding because there are evidences in your posts. I do know you are so high. Yes. Understanding is very important. But no intention -->-->--> will still in the samsara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > But anyone who follows mahasatipatthaana path that is who > contemplates on the body in connection with 14 contemplation, on the > feeling, on the mind, on the dhamma that arise they will see the > results. ( These results are reproduced as The Buddha discovered).> > The Buddha clearly preached that > 'contemplation on the body ( 14 sessions)' > 'contemplation on the feeling' > 'contemplation on the mind' > 'contemplation on the dhamma that arise' will lead to achievement of > arahatta magga and if there is remanents of defilements then it will > lead to achievement of anagami magga. Sukin(23.05.05) +Sukin: I have addressed this part in Dialogue 3. And yes, the practice can lead to arahatta magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: O! So strange! You now said 'And yes, the practice can lead to arahatta magga.' What happen to you? Now you say 'And yes, the practice can lead to arahatta magga.' Where has 'doing' gone? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin(23.05.05) What we are in fact trying to determine is "what indeed does the practice constitute". ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: A single word! :-)) :-)) :-)) 'Non-self'. And fullstop. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45939 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo matheesha333 Hello Sukinder, S:> But intention is only so good as the roots it is associated with. Having > the idea of doing good does not mean that good is being done. It may > be after all rooted in lobha, dosa or moha. All our thoughts are > conditioned and if there is no satipatthana and if it is not a moment of > dana, sila or samatha bhavana, then we can be sure that it must be > akusala, particularly, lobha. > A moment of satipatthana would be accompanied by detachment, > certainly not any idea about `wanting' to develop kusala or more sati. M: I'm trying to clarify the point for myself here. Are you saying that since Intention is most likely to be based on lobha, dosa, moha, and since satipttana should be done without lobha, it is not possible to have an intention to do Satipttana? (ie-it would not be satipattana) S:so too sati when it does arise > does so by conditions beyond control. The idea of `doing' something to > develop sati goes against this understanding about the conditioned > nature of realities. M: So what are the conditions for sati to arise? If someone has intension to move a leg, the following nama-rupa ('moving the leg') is conditioned by that intention. What is your understanding of this? S:> We can only appreciate, intellectually at first, the idea about the factors > to sotapatti, i.e. association with the wise, hearing the correct dhamma, > reflecting on it and applying it. In all this however, it is not > about `intending', but about `understanding'. M: So there is no intention to associate with the wise ..but yet we understand? I'm sorry but how can you come to any undrstanding without actually doing something about it first (I'm thinking about the actual act) ..associating with the wise, engaging in an egroup etc. Then you can begin to understand. The intension has arisen and passed away, then you can begin to understand. S:It may or may not even be any real > understanding which sees the difference between theory and practice; > even non-Buddhists can see this difference. But what follows is not that > simple. This is what makes Dhamma special and hard to see. M: :) can you explain this a bit more.. S:> On seeing this difference, we jump on to the idea of `doing' something > about it, unaware that `ditthi' has already worked its way to taking us > the wrong way. , And this would seem ironic, that in the process of > doing this, more and more we understand that the `practice' is not > about `doing', but about `understanding' *this* moment better. And > what we will see is that, the idea of `doing' arises precisely because we > are still not very firm on the level of `intellectual understanding' to begin > with. M: Might I suggest that seeing the idea of 'doing', as something incompatible with the understanding of anatta (i assume you are talking about that with the mention of ditti), is incomplete understanding. 'Doing' is also anatta. 'Doing' does not point towards a self or a self view in someone without it. He would see it as another dhamma which has existed before and after irradication of self view. It does not require a self to 'do'. Because there never was a self to begin with anyway ..but he was still 'doing'. A person with a self view can begin to Do the work of observing the aggragates and understand no self. S:> I give the example of some meditation groups, who have proliferated > their idea about theory and practice to the point of discouraging the > student from reading even the Tipitaka. M: This is sad and rather dangerous. S:> "Do I devote time to such a practice?" Again there is no "I" to do > anything. M: :), even the buddha used the word 'I'. It's convenient, so lets use it! You're probably being only reflective though. S:> This then sometimes gives rise to the thought about `doing something' > to be rid of all this akusala. But really, what can be done? There *is no > control over dhammas. M: I hear this being repeated in the group. There is no control over its arising and passing away, but we can influence what arises and passess away. We cant influence the structure but we can influence the content. S:We can't make pariyatti arise, likewise how can > we patipatti? M: ..but you can influence the conditions so that they may arise on their own? You can bring yourself to read a book on dhamma, then understanding may arise. S:Certainly we should not fall prey to desire and wrong > view and thus follow any practice without reflection. Wrong pariyatti will > condition wrong patipatti. M: Thats reasonable. But how will you know when you have accumlated enough panna to start patipatti, or do you not plan to do it in this lifetime? Happy Vesak! May the light of wisdom shine. metta Matheesha 45940 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo matheesha333 Hi Nina, N:> We have to have the right balance as Lodewijk likes to stress: not forcing > sati, and on the other hand not being slack. Remember the Soma sutta, not > being overstrung. When we stress one point we are always in danger losing > sight of the other factors. M: I agree. Sadda, Viriya, Sati, Samadhi, Panna all have to develop, not just panna. The faculties need to be balanced. Your view would be different from Sukinders view on this then? How do you feel these factors should be developed? > Sarah: Usually one moment. , > > Khun Sujin: That is not enough. One realizes that one has to continue to > develop understanding. M: This is why I asked those questions. Avijja is strong. It wont give up easily. We need to prove to it beyond any reasonable doubt that the tilakkana are true. That is why it is better done with every moment and not just one moment, because every time we stop, we sink back into avijja based thinking. Also for the rising of aanantarika samadhi the continued sati and sampajanna is important. This is not for panna, but moving further into vimukti. metta Matheesha 45941 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi, Andrew - > > Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their arising > and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about other > more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the arising > and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; > consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); formations > (sankhara) ? > Tep, and htootintnaing, sorry to disappoint, but in short, I don't really know for sure. I can share what my experience is, which is to be mindful of them (for neutral or any other kind of feeling, and it may or may not work as well for the others), note them, and you will penetrate their 'superficiality' and see them changing. That is, if you apply consistent and strong enough attention. That is the characteristic of mindfulness, is it not? To penetrate the true nature of the object? > #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano > adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti > * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo > > > Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. Always. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ======== Regards, a.l. 45942 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Vism.XIV,160 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 160. Herein, (xxxvii) it has no conscientious scruples, thus it is 'consciencelessness'. (xxxviii) It is unashamed, thus it is 'shamelessness'. Of these, 'consciencelessness' has the characteristic of absence of disgust at bodily misconduct, etc., or it has the characteristic of immodesty. 'Shamelessness' has the characteristic of absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of absence of anxiety about them. This is in brief here. The detail, however, is the opposite of what was said above under conscience (xi) and shame (xii). 45943 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: Decisive Support Condition philofillet Hi Htoo and all > The > relationship between foregoing kusala dhamma and the following kusala > dhamma is known as 'upanissaya paccaya' or 'decisive support > condition'. > > This kind of support can be learned in the junction between the first > and the second, the second and the third, the third and the fourth, > the fourth and the fifth, the fifth and the sixth, and the sixth and > the seventh kusala javana cittas or wholesome mental impulsive > consciousness. Ph: I think this is only one of three kinds of decisive support condition, right? Proximity decisive support condition. There are also obejctie decisive support condition in which "an exceptionally desirable or important object.. causes the conditioned states to arise in strong dependence on it" and natural decisive support in which includes "all past mental or material phemena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent cittas and cetasikas" (definitions from Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) I guess the second and third type are much broader and harder to pinpoint. All kinds of decisive support condition are very important, I think. At some point I hope to have a good long discussion with everyone about natural decisive support condition - when the time comes... Metta, Phil 45944 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? matheesha333 Hi Htoo, H> PS: There are people who claim to see D.O during meditation > sessions, :-)) From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW, lamentation, pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind)> end quote. M: It is possible to see vinnana merging with a sense base to give rise to passa through vipassana meditation, if the process is slowed down. It is possible to see the subsequent arising of sanna and vedana. DO is so very complex, and is like a single thread running through so many other possible pathways of cause and effect 'strings'. metta Matheesha 45945 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: Control philofillet Hi Htoo > > Irrigators regulate the waters; > > fletcher straighten the arrow shaft; > > carpenters shape the wood; > > the wise control themselves. > > > > Dhammapada V.80 > > > > Htoo's message: So the wise 'control' themselves. The wise are wise > > enough to see anatta but they do 'control' themselves. > > Phil's message: As it happens, this is the very verse that started me > thinking about the uncontrollability of thoughts, about a year ago. Ph:?@Actually, I realized I was referring to a different Dhammapada verse. "Just as a fletcher straightens an arrow shaft, even so the discerning man straightens his mind -- so fickle and unsteady, so difficult to guard." I think "controlling oneself" can arise fairly often in a meaningful way - abstaining from immoral actions is not always difficult. But controlling one's thoughts in the way described in the verse I quoted is a different matter. I hope worldlings don't try to take this teaching too literally. We can learn a lot from akusala thoughts, should they arise due to conditions - when there is understanding of them, there is kusala. Fighting off akusala thoughts by focussing the mind intentionally in an unnatural way sounds like a subtle form of akusala to me. Seeing akusala when it arises and understanding it is the best way to eradicate this akusala, in the long run. We in the west (I don't know about Myanmar) have trouble thinking in the long run when it comes to Dhamma, I think. Metta, Phil 45946 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... Hi Andrew and Htoo - I only wanted to learn from your experience in observing the arising and passing away of neutral feeling (adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam) because I have had a problem with it myself. If I cannot "see" its beginning and its ending, how can I "note" it? In theory, according to the Satipatthna Sutta, sati alone is not sufficient : we have to be 'atapi sampajano satima' (Ardent. Clearly comprehending. Mindful.), I guess. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, Andrew - > > > > Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their arising > > and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about other > > more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the arising > > and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; > > consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); formations > > (sankhara) ? > > > > Tep, and htootintnaing, sorry to disappoint, but in short, I don't > really know for sure. I can share what my experience is, which is to > be mindful of them (for neutral or any other kind of feeling, and it > may or may not work as well for the others), note them, and you will > penetrate their 'superficiality' and see them changing. That is, if > you apply consistent and strong enough attention. That is the > characteristic of mindfulness, is it not? To penetrate the true > nature of the object? > > > #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano > > adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti > > * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo > > > > > > Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. > > Always. > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > Tep > > > > > > ======== > > Regards, > a.l. 45947 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desirable object - not important? philofillet Hi Nina, and all > N: I looked at a beautifully bound book in red and gold leather (Goethe). I > thought of your question. We look, but what is seen? We keep on thinking of > a thing, and then we do not know visible object: the tiniest rupa arising > and then gone immediately. Ph: Last night I heard a recorded talk. You and Kh Sujin and others were talking about nimitta (sign.) There is seeing, but always so much more thinking about what was seen, and what we think about after the seeing has fallen away is nimiita. Actually, I don't understand the difference between pannati (concept) and nimiita (sign.) Is the latter a more specific terms, an example of the former? I liked what was said by someone in this talk - the only difference between what we are seeing now and a dream when we are asleep is that there are some moments of seeing and other sense door cittas between all the concepts. Just beginning to understand that is very helpful. We begin to see that we are living in a dream all the time. The cliche "life is an illusion" that is often said by pseudo-BUddhist chracters in movies etc. begins to make sense. > Ph: 3) "not important - it doesn't lead to detachment" for the above > > reason - that it is too fast for worldlings to be likely to insight - > > and it is therefore awareness of mental feeling that is likely to > > be the object that can be insighted in a way that can condition > > detachment? > ------- > N: We should not select feeling. Whatever appears. Not only mental feeling. Ph: But we know that intellectual understanding is a condition for more direct understanding. I *think* that feeling is more likely to appear to my ignorant mind than other dhammas, other meanl khandas. If a trusted Dhamma friend agrees that this is so, it might help in a small way condition a better understanding of feeling when it arises. We place so much importance on feeling, we cling to them so. I've learned that we often cling to a feeling that has passed in a way that takes us away from present object. I guess that's what you're warning me against when I ask about feeling and you discourage me from making a point of thinking about it. We often hear that understanding nama from rupa is the "first stage of tender insight" (to quote you) - feeling can be an object that can help us here because it is hard for me to distinguish mental feeling from body feeling at times. >> Perhaps we try to find out too much about objects. > Lodewijk said: it sounds harsh, but it is true. I like this. You write books that explain cetasikas in detail, but you warn against trying to find out too much about them. (eg my other question about piiti) It's very subtle and a little paradoxical, and pardoxes keep our minds flexible. I think the Buddha used paradoxes intentionally at times to help impatient people. Metta, Phil 45948 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 5:56pm Subject: [dsg] Refreshing the citta (WasRe: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 183 - Enthusiasm/piiti (a) philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your feedback. > N: We should not forget that piiti is more often akusala, it gladdens in the > akusala way. The same goes for virya (energy). Using the Pali word can help us here because there are such positive connotations for "enthusiasm/zest" or "energy. I think there are 12 or 13 of these cettasikas that can be "ethically variable" - the 7 universals and the 5? 6? particulars. I forget the exact number. Akusala predominates in the world. I can understand that intellectually when I read the Fire Sutta (SN 35.28) All that burning. > Remember Rob K's example about his glowing skin, after meditation with > lobha? Subtle lobha can make one have a radiant appearance. Ph: I'm afraid Rob was still glowing when I met him at the airport for our Dhamma talk. Hopefully it will wear off soon! (haha) Though of course there is the sutta that says the monks have radiant skin because they do not dwell in the past or the future etc. Also, if we are radiant because of this lobha it can have a beneficial effect for others. Every Sunday morning and sometimes other days I walk (fast) for about an hour before teaching and my classes are excellent. I have been refreshed and invigorated, there is lobha for exercise, for walking. But as a result of this lobha I am a better teacher, a more generous and energetic and patient teacher - the students benefit for sure. Of course there is so much normal lobha - I forget the Pali - that makes it possible for us to live in the world. (samalobha?) > Ph: I mean, in daily life, we are refreshed in > > a way that is more than momentary... > Is this because the > > pitti and/or the object are a strong condition for subsequent > > refreshed moments? > ---------- > N: We keep on thinking about the tulips and liking them, so, there are many > moments of piti. I do not think of piti as a strong condition. > ----- > N: So many conditions at work, we cannot trace them. We can be misled when > trying to find the cause. Yes, I talked about the difference between *seeking* delight and *finding* delight, and I think there is a difference, but as soon as I think about it or write about it, there is seeking. It's enough to know that there is piiti. No need to try to get a handle on it. It's characteristics might appear, if panna is developed. I think that's why I didn't get around to asking my question about piiti for a few weeks. I sensed that. To tell the truth, since I was one of the people who suggested a Cetasika's Study Corner I feel that I should try to ask questions or make comments. But often it is enough to be read and take note and move on without trying to penetrate cetasikas deeply through the intellect. That won't happen - but the shallow intellectual understanding can condition deeper understanding to arise later - we don't know when. Metta, Phil 45949 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Five Generations foamflowers Everyone who responded this this post, thank you so much. This is the last part of my investigation and where it lead me...all I can say is Wow...much reflection will be done (without pushing it..) http://www.dhammastudy.com/Vsm18.html THE PATH OF PURIFICATION (VISUDDHIMAGGA) Chapter XVIII: Description of Purification of View (Ditthi-visuddhi-niddesa) 29. But when a man rejects this correct vision and assumes that a [permanent] being exists, he has to conclude either that is comes to be annihilated or that it does not. If he concludes that it does not come to be annihilated, he falls into the eternity [view]. If he concludes that it does come to be annihilated, he falls into the annihilation [view]. Why? Because [the assumption] precludes any gradual change like that of milk into curd. So he either holds back, concluding that the assumed being is eternal, or he overreaches, concluding that is comes to be annihilated. 30. Hence the Blessed One said 'There are two kinds of view, bhikkhus, and when deities and human beings are obsessed by them, some hold back and some overreach; only those with eyes see. And how do some hold back? Dieties and human beings love becoming, delight in becoming, rejoice in becoming. When Dhamma is taught to them for the ceasing of becoming, their minds do not enter into it, become settled, steady and resolute. Thus it is that some hold back. And how do some overreach? Some are ashamed, humiliated and disgusted by that same becoming, they are concerned with non-becoming in this way: "Sirs, when with the break up of the body this self is cut off, annihilated, does not become any more after death, that is peaceful, that is sublime, that is true". Thus it is that some overreach. And how do those with eyes see? Here a bhikkhu sees what is become as become. Having seen what is become as become, he has entered upon the way to dispassion for it, to the fading away of greed for it, to its cessation. This is how one with eyes sees.' (Iti.43; Ps.i,159). 31. Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, [595] yet it seems as if it had curiousity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiousity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll - Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks. At the end of this site I found this passage: The Blessed One said "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing, without fully understanding all, without causing the fading away of greed for it without abandoning it, the mind is incapable of the destruction of suffering" (S.iv,17). I see greed in the belief in a permanent self and the belief in a no-self, that there is no thing there at all, they seem to be the same to me, both dangerous because they are made up and come from wanting something to be true even though I do not know, I wish it were true, to be truly not there or to be here for ever and ever...very greedy. I had always thought of it as aversion and craving but I can see it as greed both ways too. With metta, Lisa 45950 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Sati, sampajanna; samatha and vipassana [Was Re: Radiating or pervading ] buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha (Attn.: Nina, Htoo, Jon, Phil, James, Mike, Lisa) - Thank you for your remark near the end of the message #45607. It was a casual remark about sati-sampajana & samatha-vipassana, but it took me a while to figure out what I should have said to you. -------------------------- >T: So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna ... >M: Excellent. While I wouldn't equate sati with samadhi, the >derivation is worthwhile noting. Thanks for that one Tep. -------------------------- T: Let's go back one step to our dialogue in my previous message # 45561. >> M: Tep, while the sutta you posted talks of both samatha and >>vipassana, it is very difficult to seperate the two, to say that >> only one is happening and not the other. This is why I think there is no clear differentiation in the sathipattaana descriptions - and it gives rise to both Samma Samadhi and Samma Gnana as >>the 8th and 9th steps of the 10 fold path. >>Sathi --> Samadhi-->Panna. >T: I guess the word "Sathi" above is the same as Sati. >It was a keen observation of yours about the intertwined >occurrence of samatha and vipassana in Satipatthana bhavana. >For example, in the "body in body" contemplation >(kaye-kayanupassi viharati) both sati and sampajanna are >developed together. The DN 22 Commentary explains that the >samatha calm (or tranquillity) is "stated by mindfulness" while >"insight(vipassana) is stated by clear comprehension". >So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna. ------------------------------ T; No, I wouldn't equate sati with samadhi either. However, your remark above <"I think there is no clear differentiation in the sathipattaana descriptions - and it gives rise to both Samma Samadhi and Samma Gnana as the 8th and 9th steps of the 10 fold path.> is very important. I think this passage came from MN 117 : "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten." But the idea how samatha & vipassana is one-to-one corresponding to sati & sampajanna as given in the Comy of DN 22 is not given in MN 117. Don't you agree? So, where in the world did the Commentator get that idea from? I guess he got it from his own experience, because even my own meager meditation experience has given me the same understanding -- eventhough I have not been endowed with the eight factors yet. :->)) Are you familiar with the name Dhammavuddho Thero ? The following excerpt of his article is very helpful to me. It explains clearly from the experience of the monk who knows jhana, samatha, vipassana, anapanasati, and satipatthana. I don't think he ignored vipassana, especially the Anatta principle at all - it was not his focus at this point, that's all. "When we investigate the suttas we find that there is a difference between sati and satipatthana. As explained earlier, sati means recollection. Now patthana possibly comes from two words, pa and thana. Pa means 'setting forth', and also implies going beyond. Thus it can also mean extreme, intense. Thana means standing still, and can also mean a state or condition. Thus satipatthana probably means an intense state of recollection. This translation of satipatthana seems to agree with the suttas, to which I shall now refer. ..i.e. one-pointed attention. This is a clear explanation of the meaning of satipatthana. "In Majjhima Nikaya 44, it is stated that satipatthana is the characteristic mark (nimitta) of samadhi. This implies that when one attains concentration (samadhi, defined as one-pointedness of mind, or jhana), satipatthana (not just sati) must automatically be present. The state of concentration or right concentration (jhana) is a state of intense awareness and recollection in which the mind lights up -- a state of mental brightness because the mind is focused, not scattered. Hence, it is stated that satipatthana is a characteristic mark of concentration. "Recollection of breathing, when developed, is said to fulfill the four satipatthanas. In comparison, Samyutta Nikaya 54.1.8 says that intense concentration on recollection of breathing leads to the attainment of all the jhanas. Furthermore the four satipatthanas, when developed, are said to fulfill the seven factors of enlightenment. Now, four of the seven factors are delight, tranquility, concentration and equanimity, all of which are also the characteristics of jhana. Again the implication is that we cannot separate satipatthana attainment and jhana attainment. They go hand in hand. "One should practise right recollection and then develop it into an intense state in order to attain satipatthana. When satipatthana is attained, concentration or jhana is also attained. [endquote] Mindfulness, Recollection & Concentration by Ven. Dhammavuddho Thero http://www.vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art9_1.asp#top Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > (snipped) > Lokuttara panna. Are you talking of magga & phala-citta here? Jhana > would be essential if that were the case. But then the way to give > rise to that jhana is with simple jhana practice (sutta) and khanika > samadhi giving rise to aanantharika samadhi (commentary). I prefer > to stay with what 'sutta' practice. > > >T: So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna > > M: Excellent. While I wouldnt equate sati with samadhi, the > derivation is worthwhile noting. Thanks for that one Tep. > 45951 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 8:15pm Subject: When there is metta....DO SOMETHING! philofillet Hello all Yesterday I was recording one of the India talks directly from the computer on to a portable tape recorder. (I bought an I-pod to download the talks but typically couldn?ft figure out how to download them so quickly gave up and gave the I pod to Naomi. For now, I?fll stick with my primitive cassette system.) Naomi came bopping into the room, listening to something funky on the I Pod. I gestured ?gssh!?h because the Dhamma talk was recording, and Naomi took that as a hint to shout something on to the tape to tease me. And what happened next was very interesting. Just as Kh Sujin said ?gWhen there is metta?c?h Naomi sang out ?gdo something!?h She was listening to music, so it was just a fluke, but what a meaningful fluke. It made me reflect on the nature of metta, and all kusala cittas. There is a tendency for us to want to do something in order to have more kusala, but maybe it is more helpful to think about whether there is a fleeting possibility to do something when the kusala has arisen due to conditions beyond our control. Strike while the iron is hot. I?fve quoted this before, but in Japanese there is a proverb ?gzen wa isoge?h which means ?ggoodness hurries.?h Of course, the doing something is also conditioned, also anatta, but still?c. (Thanks Naomi. Now everytime when I listen to that tape I will hear your ?gdo something!?h and it will be a good reminder. Of course your intention was to screw up my Dhamma tape but it turned out well! I love you!) Metta, Phil 45952 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: Control buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: I hope worldlings don't > try to take this teaching too literally. I have been reading this comment, and similar ones, in some of your posts lately. To me, it seems that you are saying in a generalized way that none of the Buddha's teachings (suttas) should be taken literally. As a fellow English teacher, I'm sure you are aware of the differences between figurative language and literal language; and the Buddha used both modes of language in his discourses. Why are you assuming that nothing he said should be taken literally? Is this what you are assuming? Have you done an extensive reading of the suttas to come to this conclusion? I am asking because, of course, I don't agree. I see both modes of speech in the Buddha's discourses and wonder why you are making this generalization lately. Metta, James 45953 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 9:10pm Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Andrew and Htoo - > > I only wanted to learn from your experience in observing the arising > and passing away of neutral feeling (adukkhamasukham vaa > vedanam) because I have had a problem with it myself. If I > cannot "see" its beginning and its ending, how can I "note" it? First, just create whatever conditions are favorable to your mindfulness arising, and note 'neutral' instead of 'pleasant' or 'painful.' This goes for neutral bodily feeling especially. Be mindful of whatever there is, as it comes up, establish mindfulness on the body or sense door, and as soon as neutral pops up you will know it. If you observe it thoroughly, you should see its impermanent nature. > > In theory, according to the Satipatthna Sutta, sati alone is not sufficient : > we have to be 'atapi sampajano satima' (Ardent. Clearly > comprehending. Mindful.), I guess. > Ardent means putting forth sufficient energy, clearly comprehending means not confusing it with anything else (right?), and mindful is just mindful. You can do it, anyone can. Also, why only neutral feeling? Have you had success observing pleasant and painful feelings but find neutral more difficult? It may be the case in that they aren't as 'strong,' but it should be detectable. Anyone else? > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ====== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Andrew - > > > > > > Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their > arising > > > and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about > other > > > more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the > arising > > > and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; > > > consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); > formations > > > (sankhara) ? > > > > > > > Tep, and htootintnaing, sorry to disappoint, but in short, I don't > > really know for sure. I can share what my experience is, which is to > > be mindful of them (for neutral or any other kind of feeling, and it > > may or may not work as well for the others), note them, and you will > > penetrate their 'superficiality' and see them changing. That is, if > > you apply consistent and strong enough attention. That is the > > characteristic of mindfulness, is it not? To penetrate the true > > nature of the object? > > > > > #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano > > > adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti > > > * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. > > > > Always. > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > Tep > > > > > > > > > ======== > > > > Regards, > > a.l. 45954 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 9:34pm Subject: Re: Control philofillet Hi James > I have been reading this comment, and similar ones, in some of your > posts lately. To me, it seems that you are saying in a generalized > way that none of the Buddha's teachings (suttas) should be taken > literally. (snip) Why are you > assuming that nothing he said should be taken literally? Is this what > you are assuming? Have you done an extensive reading of the suttas to > come to this conclusion? I am asking because, of course, I don't > agree. I see both modes of speech in the Buddha's discourses and > wonder why you are making this generalization lately. You're right - I do make generalizations, which is lazy. But since I'm not a Buddhist scholar and am busy and basically don't know what I'm talking about, there will be generaliztions. I could just shut up until my understanding is better, but I believe we learn better when we talk out and have our mistakes pointed out to us. (As you know from the classroom.) I think the danger in taking suttas too literally is 1) people take descriptions of attainments for suggested practices. Take for example all the suttas in Samyutta Nikaya (the only Nikaya that I have begun to study thoroughly) in which the person in question is a "noble instructed disciple" - as compared to the worlding. I think of the sutta (gotta run so can't look it up) in which "the noble instructed disciple feels revulsion" re the khandas. From the commentarial notes we learn that this is an attainment, not just feeling revulsion in the conventional sense which is what a literal reading might lead one to misunderstand. So in this case reading at least commentarial notes and preferably a full commentary along with the sutta helps. 2) We are reading a translator's words. Bhikkhu Bodhi uses "revulsion" - other translators use other words. The tanslator's word choice will always lend a subjective shade to his or her interpretation of the sutta in question. Inevitably. Those are just two quick thoughts off the top of my head as I leave for work. I'll think about it some more. In passing, thanks for your letter in our continuing thread. I'll be back to you on Saturday, faithfully. And thanks for this warning about generalizations. I do make them, you're right. A lazy habit. Metta, Phil 45955 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 23, 2005 10:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 201 - Zeal/chanda (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda)] Chanda, which is usually translated as zeal, desire or wish-to-do, is another cetasika among the six “particulars” which arises with cittas of the four jåtis – but not with every citta. When we hear the word “desire”, we may think that chanda is the same as lobha. However, chanda can be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. The cetasika chanda which is classified as one of the “particulars” is not the same as lobha, it has its own characteristic and function1. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 150) defines chanda as follows: * "Zeal (chanda) is a term for desire to act. So, that zeal has the characteristic of desire to act. Its function is scanning for an object. It is manifested as need for an object. That same (object) is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the extending of the mental hand in the apprehending of an object." * The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 132) gives a similar definition. Chanda searches, looks for the object which citta cognizes. Chanda needs that object which is also its proximate cause. ***** [Ch.12 Zeal(chanda) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45956 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 0:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, I'm glad your conversation with Sukin has finally got underway, and I look forward to butting in occasionally. Thanks for answering my questions about open-mindedness. -------------------------- M: > My only expectation is that we might be able to discuss the 'differences', if there are truly any, without being dogmatic- ie not thinking that ones own path is the only way. --------------------------- I have been a Christian, a materialist atheist, a Buddhist meditator and, currently, a Dhamma student with no formal practice. I must admit to always believing, dogmatically, my path was the only way - but this time, I'm right! :-) Ken H 45957 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 0:25am Subject: "When the postures are exposed...." sarahprocter... Dear Tep, Larry & all, Following up on my last post on postures (iriyaapatha) and the quotes from ‘Dispeller’, I’d like to requote the commentary notes Larry posted fairly recently as well. They were in a note to the following Vism passage: Vism XX1,4: “However, when continuity is disrupted by discerning rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature. When the postures are exposed by attention to continuous oppression, the characteristic of pain becomes apparent in its true nature. When the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements, the characteristic of not-self becomes apparent in its true nature.” ***** >”Vism.XXI,n.3. Cf. Pe. 128. In the commentary to the Aayatana-Vibha.nga we find: 'Impermanence is obvious, as when a saucer (say) falls and breaks; ... pain is obvious, as when a boil (say) appears in the body; ... the characteristic of not-self is not obvious; ... Whether Perfect Ones arise or do not arise the characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known, but unless there is the arising of a Buddha the characteristic of not-self is not made known' (VbhA. 49-50, abridged for clarity). Again, in the commentary to Majjhima Nikaaya Sutta 22: 'Having been, it is not, therefore it is impermanent; it is impermanent for four reasons, that is, in the sense of the state of rise and fall, of change, of temporariness, and of denying permanence. It is painful on account of the mode of oppression; it is painful for four reasons, that is, in the sense of burning, of being hard to bear, of being the basis for pain, and of opposing pleasure ... It is not-self on account of the mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power; it is not-self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no Overlord, and of opposing self' (MA.ii113, abridged for clarity). Commenting on this Vis. paragraph, Pm. says: "When continuity is disrupted" means when continuity is exposed by observing the perpetual otherness of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the characteristic becomes more thoroughly evident through their disconnectedness, as if they were iron darts. "When the postures are exposed" means when the concealment of the pain that is actually inherent in the postures is exposed. For when pain arises in a posture, the next posture adopted removes the pain, as it were, concealing it. But once it is correctly known how the pain in any posture is shifted by substituting another posture for that one, then the concealment of the pain that is in them is exposed because it has become evident that formations are being incessantly overwhelmed by pain. "Resolution of the compact" is effected by resolving [what appears compact] in this way, "The earth element is one, the water element is another" etc., distinguishing each one; and in this way, "Contact is one, feeling is another" etc., distinguishing each one. "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm.824).”< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 45958 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 1:41am Subject: Dhamma Thread (420) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa jhaanas. There are 5 jhaana factors. When there are all 5 factors, it is the 1st ruupa jhaana. When there are 4 of 5 factors and vitakka or initial-application is not inclusive it becomes the 2nd jhaana. There are are 3 of 5 jhaana factors and 2 factors (vitakka and vicaara) are not constituted it becomes the 3rd jhaana. Vicaara is sustained-application. It applies the mind to the jhaana object (in case of jhaana citta) in sustained fashion. When there are 2 of 5 jhaana factors and 3 factors are not the components of jhaana then the jhaana becomes the 4th ruupa jhaana. In the 4th ruupa jhaana there is no piiti or joy, vicaara or sustained-application, and vitakka or initial-application. When there is a just ekaggataa or one-pointedness as jhaana factor and there is no sukha or 'tranquility-peace', no piiti or 'joy', no vicaara or 'sustained-application', and no vitakka or 'initial- application'the jhaana is 5th ruupa jhaana. In that jhaana there is a feeling or vedana. It is no more sukha but it is upekkha or equanimity. 10 kasina kammatthaanas or 10 kasina objects can be used as the object of attention for all 5 ruupa jhaanas. And aanaapaanasati kammatthaana or breathing meditation can also give rise up to 5th ruupa jhaana. Among 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaanas or 4 pure-living meditations metta or loving-kindness, karunaa or compassion, muditaa or appreciation meditations can all give rise up to 4th ruupa jhaana. Basing on these 3 at the level of 4th ruupa jhaana another meditation called upekkha brahmavihaara can be practised and it can give rise to 5th ruupa jhaana. So there are 4 brahmavihaaras, 10 kasinas, and 1 aanaapaanasati altogether 15 meditations can give rise up to 5th ruupa jhaana. When the practitioner becomes proficient in 5th ruupa jhaana it is not too difficult for him to practise any of 10 kasinas or 1 aanaapaanasati when the initial meditation is pure-living meditation. And it is also true for aanaapaanasati meditators that they can also practise 10 kasina kammatthaana and within a short time they will attain all 5 ruupa jhaanas with 10 kasinas. 10 kasinas are universal meditation and it can give rise up to 5th ruupa jhaana and it can also be based for aruppa kammatthaanas or kammatthaanas for aruupa jhaanas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45959 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five Generations sarahprocter... Hi Lisa (Htoo, Larry, Phil, Connie, Chris*), I enjoy your posts very much – the combining of extracts with Pali with your daily life reflections and deep Abhidhamma considerations too. To get to the picky points: --- Lisa wrote: > Pannattim thapetvapannattim thapetva visesena passati ti vipassana. > Putting aside concept, he sees in a special way, thus it is Vipassana. > [lisah] I'm still working on this one...as soon as I think I'm > finished with concepts I get hooked on another one that comes up and > off I go on another trip in my head! ... S: This is a great quote. Yes, we’re all hooked on our concepts and stories and trips and that’s oh, so daily life and ordinary. The point is that the development of vipassana is the insight into namas and rupas, i.e paramattha dhammas and not into concepts. We’e all already experts at proliferating about the concepts. .... >We had some gossip start in the > family one evening and the person wasn't there to defend > themselves...I feel into for a 'moment' and didn't like it one bit and > told some of my family I thought it was wrong to talk badly about > someone who wasn't here and if we really wanted to know what was going > on we should ask. In the past I would of felt uncomfortable and let > it go and just said nothing at all. .... S: This is interesting and very familiar! So what are the realities (dhammas) to be known at such times? Apart from seeing, visible objects, hearing, sounds, there is of course the dosa (aversion) when we don’t like hear such comments and feel badly. It’s by conditions whether we speak out or keep quiet, but either way, the present dhammas can be known and our kilesa (defilements) are the only problem:).A hard lesson for me, this one – we’re so used to thinking in terms of what is right and wrong when others speak... thank you for the reminder. .... > anicca (impermanence) > [lisah]All the laughter and tears have passed now after my adventure > in the the realm of 'Grandma Land' and here I sit writing out this > story. I've understood that with sensation there is also a mental > reaction to this sensation but I had never really tried to split that > up into names like nama and rupa . It actually did help me understand > the process on an intellectual level as I went through my day during > our family gathering, it was very helpful actually! .... S: Cutting ahead to many of your other references to sensations and vedana, I think (as Larry indicated) we need to be very clear about these various terms. You are referring, I think, to the sensations in your body mostly – the hot and cold sensations, the tingling, the hardness, softness and so on. Most of these sensations you describe are rupas – those elements which can only ever be experienced and which never experience or feel anything themselves. Other rupas commonly experienced are visible objects, sounds, tastes and odours. In all the passages you quote on vedana, vedana (feelings) refer to mental states or namas. Vedana accompany the citta (consciousness) at every moment and ‘taste’ the object, whether it be one of those rupas or another nama. They are classified in different ways, but are simply pleasant, unpleasant or neutral kinds of ‘tasting’ the object. Even what are referred to rather confusingly as ‘bodily feelings’ are still namas which experience what you call sensations through the body-sense. I think it’s very important to distinguish these vedana from the rupas. ..... > > [lisah]I think experience (meditation) and intellectual understanding > are needed. If someone isn't grounded well with sati and panna than > the study of Abhidhamma could be overwhelming. When I first started > Abhidhamma study I woke up or couldn't go to sleep because of the > flurry of words in my head and new links being formed on an > intellectual level with other areas of understanding that don't carry > words. Abhidhamma stirred up the sediment and still does...lol .... S: lol too – I think the sediment gets stirred up when we look at Abhidhamma as an intellectual pursuit rather than a description of what is being experienced right now for sati and panna to know. I know that plunging into DSG must be a big stir-up for some, but of course it all depends on our accumulations and how we read the details or not:). .... > Tisso ima, bhikkhave, vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna > khaya-dhamma vaya-dhamma viraga-dhamma nirodha-dhamma. These three > types of sensations, O meditators, are impermanent, compounded, > arising owing to a cause, perishable, by nature passing away, detached > and ceasing. .... S: Perhaps it would be less confusing to refer to ‘these three types of feelings’, so that it’s clear in context that it is vedana khandha and not rupa khandha.... Of course the same truths apply to all conditioned dhammas... ... > From the Brahmajala Suttabrahmajala Sutta > I think this translation was taken from Goenka's teacher Sayagyi U Ba > Khin, > > Vedananam samudayam ca atthangamam ca assadam ca adinavam ca > nissaranam ca yatha-bhutam viditva anupada-vimutto, bhikkhave > Tathagato. > > Having experienced as they really are, the arising of sensations, > their passing away, the relishing in them, the danger in them, and the > release from them, the Enlightened One, O monks, has become free > without grasping. Maybe a Mother and Grandmother can do this too? .... S: And why the stress on vedana? Because of the importance we give to pleasant feelings, ‘the relishing in them’, on account of what is conditioned through the senses and the concepts about them. No Mother or Grandmother to do anything, but by understanding more and more about namas and rupas as fleeting elements, not worthy of being relished, insight (vipassana) can grow. I don’t see the particular attention to sensations in the body or to any other objects as being a part of this development. (you read all the posts, so you know by now that there’s lots of controversy here:)). .... > > Seyyathapi, bhikkhave, agantukagaramagantukagaram. Tattha puratthimaya > pi disaya agantva vasam kappenti, pacchimaya pi disaya...uttaraya pi > disaya... dakkhinaya pi disaya... khattiya pi... brahmana pi... vessa > pi... sudda pi... Evameva kho, bhikkhave, imasmim kayasmim vividha > vedana uppajjanti. Sukha pi vedana uppajjanti, dukkha pi... > adukkhamasukha pi... samisa pi sukha... samisa pi dukkha... samisa pi > adukkhamasukha... niramisa pi sukha... niramisa pi dukkha... niramisa > pi adukkhamasukha... vedana uppajjati ti. > > Suppose, O meditators, there is a public guest-house. People come > there to stay from the east, the west, the north and the south. People > who are Kshatriyas, Brahmins, Vaishyas and Shudras. Similarly, O > meditators, various sensations arise in this body. Pleasant bodily > sensations, unpleasant bodily sensations, neither unpleasant nor > pleasant bodily sensations, arise. Pleasant bodily sensations arise > with attachment, unpleasant bodily sensations arise with attachment, > neither unpleasant nor pleasant bodily sensations arise with > attachment. Pleasant bodily sensations arise without attachment, > unpleasant bodily sensations arise without attachment, neither > unpleasant nor pleasant bodily sensations arise without attachment. .... S: The word ‘kaya’ can refer to the physical body, rupa-kaya or the mental body, nama-kaya, or for feeling (vedana), perception (sanna) and a few other mental formations. (See Nyantiloka dict on kaya or U.P.). So here, vedana (feelings) again are not what you refer to as sensations. Bodily feelings (namas as I mentioned) can only be pleasant or unpleasant and never arise with attachment at the same time, so I assume here it is referring to all kinds of feelings arising in the sense door and mind door processes, experiencing or tasting their objects with or without attachment. .... > Yatha pi vata akasevata akase, vayanti vividha puthu;Puratthima > pacchima ca pi, uttara atha dakkhina. Saraja araja ca pi, sita unha ca > ekada; Adhimatta paritta ca, puthu vayanti maluta. Tathevimasmim > kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; Sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha > ca ya. > > Just as in the sky different winds as different winds in the sky blow, > from east and west, from north and south, dust-laden or dustless, cold > or hot, fierce gales or gentle breezes, many winds blow. So also > pleasant, unpleasant or neutral sensations arise within the body. > How, then, does the observation of these body sensations lead to > liberation? What is the release from vedana which the Buddha declared > he had experienced? .... S: Same point. I think ‘pleasant, unpleasant or neutral sensations arise within the body’ is very misleading. (Htoo may like to comment) .... > > Yam vedanam paticca uppajjati sukham somanassam, ayam vedanaya assado. > Ya vedana anicca dukkha viparinama-dhamma, ayam vedanaya adinavo. Yo > vedanaya chandaraga-vinayo chandaragappahanam, idam vedanaya > nissaranam. > > The relishing of sensation is the physical and mental happiness > arising from sensations. The danger in sensations is that they are > impermanent, the cause of suffering, and subject to change. The escape > or release from sensations is the removal and abandonment of craving > for the stimulation of sensations. .... S: I don’t know all the words, but I understand the sukham somanassam to be referring to the vedanam – 5 types of feeling: sukha, dukkha (bodily feelings), somanassa, domanassa,upekkha (or adukkha-m- asukha) (mental feelings). As I say, they are all ‘mental’, but in this classification, the first two refer to those accompanying the citta which experiences rupas through the body-sense. (see ‘vedana’/feelings in U.P.) .... > Yato ca bhikkhu atapi, sampajannam na rincatiatapi, sampajannam na > rincati; tato so vedana sabba, parijanati pandito. > > When a meditator, striving ardently, does not lose sampajanna, the > thorough understanding of impermanence, even for a moment, such a wise > person fully comprehends and experiences all sensations by exploring > the entire field. .... S: Again all vedana (feelings). .... > By constantly observing the sensations in the body, one experiences > the arising and passing away. This constant observation of the body > sensations based on the realisation of impermanence is sampajanna. ... S: I know this is very Goenka, but I think it’s not what the quoted texts say. Sampajanna is a synonym for panna (right understanding). It has to be developed with detachment and sati (mindfulness) to understand whatever reality (dhamma) appears without any special selection or focus as I understand. As you quoted above, vedana along with all other conditioned dhammas, arise by their own causes...they cannot be made to arise by a wish to select objects for observation. .... > Sampajanna attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension, > circumspection > > Vipassana inward vision, insight, intuition, introspection --anga > constituent of intuition --upekkha indifference by introspection > --kammatthana exercise for intuition --nana ability or method of > attaining insight --dhura obligation of introspection ... S: Sampajanna, vipassana, panna, nana (or ~naa.na) are all synonyms. Vipassana nana refers to stages of insight. ‘anga’ –limbs as in ‘limbs of wisdom’ Upekkha has different meanings (again see U.P. on ‘upekkha’ or Nyantiloka dict). Indifferent feeling as I mentioned above is one meaning. Kammatthana – objects of bhavana, lit ‘work-place’ I think. In the development of samatha, there are the 40 objects referred to and in the development of vipassana or satipatthana, any reality (dhamma) appearing is the kammatthana. Dhura - ?? > > More scribbles to come, with Metta, > Lisa P.S. I've been reading [[ALL]] the emails coming from > DSG...excellent dialoges going on here! ... S: That’s really great to hear. Thx for the encouragement and your great posts – Quiz time: What happens if you put some Phil anecdotes with wise and brahma vihara touches into the blender with Connie’s Pali quotes and zany (whacky?)wise touches...and maybe add a touch of one of Christine’s pearls??.... Ans: you get a Lisa stream of consciousness...:)) Metta, Sarah *Chris – I think there were a few posts addressed to you just before you went away from Phil and others. Hope you saw them and we get to hear one of those ‘pearls’:). ======= 45960 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, I thought you gave good answers on piiti. A few small comments: --- htootintnaing wrote: > ii What is the function of píti which arises with kusala citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer ii) > > To help with cheering up so that less and less energy will take to do > kusala in the presence of piiti. ... S: I thought this was very 'cute':). It 'refreshes' the citta and other cetasikas or takes by taking an interest in the object. Of course, if it's kusala, it 'cheers up' or takes an interest in objects in a wholesome way. Taking joy or interest in offering a gift or a person as object of metta is quite differnt from taking an interest or cheering up other states when we're lost in the joys of nature or eating a lot of delicious food without any awareness. .... ... > ix Píti can be an enlightenment factor. How can we cultivate > the enlightenment factor of píti? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer ix) > > By approaching to magga citta. ... S: Surely the way is by developing satipatthana -- the only way any of the enlightenment factors can be cultivated? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > x Which factors can condition kusala citta with píti and > somanassa? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo; > > Answer x) > > The object can condition kusala citta with piiti and somanassa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Yes, this is true. Surely also our accumulations....pakatu upanissaya paccaya again. Even the lokuttara cittas (with nibbana as object) are not always accompanied by piiti and somanassa..... ... S: I skipped one - knowing the difference between kusala and akusala piti...I'd have just stressed sati, being aware and panna, understanding these states when they arise, rather than saddha as you stressed. These aren't corrections, just my comments as Nina is quite busy....It's most helpful when you or Phil or both have a go at the Qus at the end of each chapter. Thank you. Metta, Sarah ========= 45961 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unwholesome consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is > listening his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly > happy because he does not fully understand adult's speech. But as > there is lobha he is listening actively. There is wrong view as he > does not know kamma well. And no one is urging him to listen. ... S: We discussed this one before and I mentioned that it didn't sound like an example of wrong view. He's not thinking about kamma. We had a long discussion and I seemed to recall you agreed with the point at the end, but it's popped up in repetition again. You may like to check back:). Metta, Sarah ====== 45962 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for your reply. I think, Sarah and I argued on > phala-samapatti. > Abhidhammatthasangaha says all phalatthaana puggala can attain > furition- > attainment. ... S: I don't recall any 'argument' ...what I do recall is that you had referred to *all* ariyans being able to experience phala-samapatti and I gave many references and comments to show (as Nina also just requoted) that this only applies to those ariyans who have obtained jhanas. Again, I believe you agreed. See 'phala-samapatti'/fruition consciousness in U.P. for more. As Nina, said, when we read the texts, such as Abhidhammattha sangaha, we have to know the context or whom it is referring to. Sometimes it's difficult, I know, like the comment under citta visuddhi we discussed. On Sukkha-vipassakas, also in U.P. see 'Jhana and Nibbana', 'Susima Sutta', 'Yuganaddha Sutta' (sp?) and lots more.... Metta, Sarah ========= 45963 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Andrew and Htoo - I only wanted to learn from your experience in observing the arising and passing away of neutral feeling (adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam) because I have had a problem with it myself. If I cannot "see" its beginning and its ending, how can I "note" it? In theory, according to the Satipatthna Sutta, sati alone is not sufficient : we have to be 'atapi sampajano satima' (Ardent. Clearly comprehending. Mindful.), I guess. Respectfully, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, The life of 'Mahaasatipatthaana' resides in 'viharati,aataapi sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m' and also resides in 'yaavodeva ~naanamattaaya patissatimattaaya, anissito ca viharati, na ca kinci loke upaadiyati,'. aataapa means 'ardent' sampajaana means 'clear comprehension'. Sam + pa + jaananti = 'clear comprehension'. sati means 'mindfulness'. Viharati here is 'practising' that is 'dwelling in practice'. So we have to practise by dwelling in sati with clear comprehension along with ardent effort. The reason of satipatthaana practice is 1. ~naanamattaaya To develop ~naana or panna. Here again DSGs will deny. Because 'panna' cannot be controlled. 2. patissatimattaaya To develop sati. Here DSGs will deny. Because 'sati' cannot be controlled. 3. anissaito ca viharati Living without depending on [tanha & ditthi]. 4. na ca kinci loke upaadiyati Nothing in loka (pancaupadanakkhandha] is to be depend on. Or not depending on anything. This means 'liberation'. So when 'at the moment' of 'actual satipatthaana' one is liberated. When these liberated moments become abundant and there is less and less intervening 'upaadana' and more and more 'satipatthaana' there will arise different maturity of vipassanaa ~naana. This is no doubt. Because it is THE ONLY WAY. It is THE SINGLE WAY. There is no alternative way at all. The Buddha said, 'Ekaayano ayam bhikkhave maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa,...' There should not be any confusion on these words. Some 'apare vadi' assume that 'eka' is one. So there are other ways and 'satipatthaana' is just one of the way. This is totally wrong. It is only 'this one way path' that finally leads to nibbana'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I will be writing mahaasatipatthaana with explanation soon. I hope DSGs will be happy. 45964 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,160 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 160. Herein, (xxxvii) it has no conscientious scruples, thus it is > 'consciencelessness'. (xxxviii) It is unashamed, thus it is > 'shamelessness'. Of these, 'consciencelessness' has the characteristic > of absence of disgust at bodily misconduct, etc., or it has the > characteristic of immodesty. 'Shamelessness' has the characteristic of > absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of > absence of anxiety about them. This is in brief here. The detail, > however, is the opposite of what was said above under conscience (xi) > and shame (xii). ---------------- Dear Larry, Why dread on their account? Isn't it 'ahirika' that you are referring to? With respect, Htoo Naing 45965 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin.(Citta A-Citta B bussiness) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > Once Howard and I was discussing on citta A- citta B- business. > > Citta A arises. It falls away. > Citta B arises. Citta B takes citta A as its object. > > How can this be possible? ... S: Yes ... > > Howard remarked that if this happened, it had to be that 'the object > of citta B is not 'true citta A'. Because it has fallen away. So > citta B is taking 'a copy' or 'identical photocopy of citta A'. it > has not to be true citta A. ... S: This is correct. Howard and I had long discussions on this topic once. It is the characteristic of citta A that appears to citta B. This is why we talk about understanding characteristics (lakkhana). Strictly speaking, the citta has fallen away as you say, but the characteristic may appear as object. It's exactly the same with rupas. After the sense door process the visible object or sound appears to the cittas of the mind-door process. There is no seeing of v.o. or hearing of sound at that time, but the characteristic of the rupa that has just fallen away appears either to ignorance or awareness. I think the 'identical photocopy' is the analogy I gave. K.Sujin also gives the analogy of water dripping through a fine piece of paper. Hopefully it'll be this week sometime, we're ready to put the newly finely edited tapes from India 01 discussions with A.Sujin up on dhammastudygroup.org. When this is done, please listen to the last track when Kom and TomW ask the same question. I think when you asked before, I also referred you to 'Navattabarammana' in U.P. We know that if the object is not a paramattha dhamma, it's a concept. However, characteristics of paramattha dhammas can be the object by way of navattabarammana. (I forget the translation - 'not so knowable' or sth). Please ask more if this is not clear. Also, on my other 'gacchanto' post and the following one which you went through with your red marker saying it was all unclear, pls pick out any parts if you'd like more detail or explanation. (No guarantees it will be any clearer, mind you!!). Metta, Sarah ===== 45966 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: Decisive Support Condition htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hi Htoo and all Ph: I think this is only one of three kinds of decisive support condition, right? Proximity decisive support condition. There are also obejctie decisive support condition in which "an exceptionally desirable or important object.. causes the conditioned states to arise in strong dependence on it" and natural decisive support in which includes "all past mental or material phemena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent cittas and cetasikas" (definitions from Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) I guess the second and third type are much broader and harder to pinpoint. All kinds of decisive support condition are very important, I think. At some point I hope to have a good long discussion with everyone about natural decisive support condition - when the time comes... Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, I am going slow in 'paccaya dhamma'. Because they are deeper, larger, and wider than any other dhamma. There are 2 kinds of paccaya or 'conditionality'. One is 'paticca-samuppaada' and the other is 'patthaana dhamma'. I have been going slowly on 'patthaana dhamma'. So far I touched on 1. hetu paccaya or 'root condition' 2. arammana paccaya or 'object condition' 3. adhipati paccaya or 'predominant condition' 4. anantara paccaya or 'proximity condition' 5. samanantara paccaya or 'contiguity condition' 6. sahajaata paccaya or 'conascent condition' 7. a~nnama~nna paccaya or 'mutuality condition' 8. nissaya paccaya or 'dependent condition' and currently upanissaya paccaya or decisive support condition has been talking. The site is at ' www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html'. It is also in 'Link' section of DSG. There have been 80 pages. There are many flaws. I hope anyone who see any flaw bring back to DSG and discuss them. Otherwise 'things' will be like 'things in the old & unused library'. With many thanks, Htoo Naing 45967 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: S:>>You go on to say here that > many > who developed samatha `never learned anatta, which is the > end-product-concept of satipatthaana.' Are you sure that you mean > anatta > is a concept? > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > Samatha that I wrote was of those who were out of The Buddha > teachings. > Pure samatha will never know anatta until and unless the samatha > meditators are followers of The Buddha or His disciples or they are > paccekabuddhas-to-be. > > Anatta? > > 1. anatta is not citta > 2. anatta is not cetasika > 3. anatta is not ruupa > 4. anatta is not nibbana > > But > > 1. citta is anatta > 2. cetasika is anatta > 3. ruupa is anatta > 4. nibbana is anatta > > So how do you think anatta is? ... S: A characteristic (lakkhana) of reality. Not a concept. Metta, Sarah ======== 45968 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! # 45415 sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Regarding metta, you wrote: > > > #45415 – another post on Metta, so I may as well respond here. > > We can read in the Vism, 1X, 8 onwards about the meaning of `May > I be > happy...etc'. it explains that: " `just as I want to be > happy and dread > pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings too', > making > himself the example, then desire for other beings' welfare and > happiness > arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One's > saying: > > `I visited all quarters with my mind > Nor found I any dearer than myself; > Self is likewise to every other dear; > Who loves himself will never harm another' (Si,75; Ud 47)." > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > Just for a joke. When you and most DSG active members say 'no > control' 'no control' 'no self' 'no self', why should The Buddha > preach about 'Self'? ... S: What we take for Self, rightly or wrongly. Whether or not there is any understanding at any level about the 5 khandhas, still it is oneself that we find most dear with or without wrong view. Even for a sotapanna, it is 'his' or 'her' rupas, vedanas, sannas, sankharas and vinnanas that are held most dear. For example, at a funeral, what do we weep for it it's not out of attachment to our own feeling etc? Another translation of the Udana verse (Masefield): "having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place (n'ev'ajjhagaa piyataram attanaa kvaci); thus is the self dear separately to others (evam piyo puthu attaa paresa.m) - therefore one desiring self should not harm another (tasmaa na hi.mse param attakaamo)." **** S: I was going to add more comy notes but it's time for me to go out for my evening walk. I'll try to respond to some of your other comments/qus in the next few days, Htoo. Again, if anything is not clear, please help me to understand what it is so that I can elaborate further. Look forward to more friendly discussions on important points -- no arguments intended:). Metta, Sarah ======= 45969 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: Hi Htoo, H> PS: There are people who claim to see D.O during meditation > sessions, :-)) From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin o beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises.Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact,feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment(upadana)arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW,lamentation,pain, grief and despair.....The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue,bodyand mind)> end quote. M: It is possible to see vinnana merging with a sense base to give rise to passa through vipassana meditation, if the process is slowed down. It is possible to see the subsequent arising of sanna and vedana. DO is so very complex, and is like a single thread running through so many other possible pathways of cause and effect 'strings'. metta Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Thank you very much for your valuable message. 'Naa-ma-ruupa paccaya salaayatana' 'mentality-materiality' as a condition 6-sense-base arises. Visible object is rupa. Eye-sense-base or cakkhuppasaada is also ruupa. Cakkhu-vinnaana or eye-consciousness is naama. So these 3 are naama-ruupa. 1. rupa-arammana (visible object) 2. cakkhuppasaada (eye-sensitivity) 3. cakkhu-vinnana (eye-consciousness) The first 2 are ruupa and number 3 is naama. These are naama-ruupa. Cakkhuvinnana citta never arises singly. It is always accompanied by 7 cetasikas. They are 1. contact (phassa) 2. feeling (vedana) 3. volition (cetana) 4. perception(sanna) 5. one-pointedness(ekaggataa) 6. mental-life(jivitindriya) 7. attention (manasikaara) Contact is already included when cakkhuvinnana arises. Again in naama-ruupa cakkhuppasaada is also included. So there is no delay in 'naama-ruupa paccaya salaayatanaa' and also no delay in 'salaayatana paccayaa phasso'. This is also right for 'phassa paccayaa vedanaa'. So from naama-ruupa link down to vedana link there is no delay and they arise instantaneously. But 'vedana paccaya tanhaa' does have a delay. Because cakkhuvinnana citta does not have any akusala dhamma. There is no tanha in cakkhuvinna citta. When does tanha arise? B---BBBPCSTVJJJJJJJDDBBBBB---BBB B = Bhavanga citta (life-continuum) P = Pancadvaravajjana citta(5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) C = Cakkhuvinnana citta(eye-consciousness) S = Sampaticchana citta(receiving consciousness) T = sanTirana citta(investigating consciousness) V = Votthapana citta [manodvaravajjana citta] J = Javana citta (mental-impulsive consciousness/appreciative cons) D = taDaarammana citta (retaining consciousness) Tanha can only arise in '8 lobha mula citta'. There is no tanha in other cittas. So at 'C' moment there are all the links of 1. naama-ruupa (mentality-materiality) 2. salaayatanaa(6-sense-base) 3. phasso (contact) 4. vedana (feeling) So C.S.T.V.J There are 3 moments between 'C' moment and 'J' moment. All 3 intervening consciousness are abyaakata dhamma. The first 2 are vipaka citta and the last is kiriya citta. So kiriya does not commit the sin while javana(with lobha/tanha) commits the sin. Vedana paccaya tanha. Feeling as a requisite condition craving arises. But this initial lobha may not be so strong to support more akusala. But later it become stronger because of asevana paccaya and lobha becomes tanha and tanha become upadaana. Bhava or existence is already there with tanha and upadaana. Because all non-arahat javana cittas do have kamma as bhava and it is called kamma-bhava. Bhava paccaya jati. Existence as a requisite condition 'birth' arises. In moment to moment matter as there is bhava or existence this is already a birth of consciousness. As long as there is a consciousness there are its implications. Jati paccaya jaraa, marana, soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, upayasaa etc etc. As consciousness cannot exist alone it has to be associated with mental factors and it also has to depend on ruupa as vatthu and as arammana. So there are all 5 upadaanakkhandha. All 5 upadaanakkhandhas are all 'dukkha sacca'. They are suffering. This suffering is only seen at the very moment of 'satipatthana' and when there is a real 'satipatthana' it is said that there is 'loki sacca' and the meditator is temporarily liberated. Because he sees naama, he sees ruupa. He does not depend on tanha, lobha, upadaana, domanassa, abhijjhaa and he is liberated at that moment' It is temporary realization of dukkha sacca. It is teporary removal of samudaya sacca. It is temporary cessation of dukkha sacca. And it is temporary development of magga sacca or the path. So there are all 4 sacca in yogi or meditator. But it is loki sacca and it is not yet supramundane. Conditionality is there all the time. The problem is that we people do not see with crystal clear eyes. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45970 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Refreshing the citta, piiti (a) nilovg Hi Phil, taking care of the body, doing what is suitable for one's health is not necessarily lobha. The Co. to the Satipatthana sutta explains about the fourfold sampajañña, clear comprenesion: of purpose, of suitability, of resort and of non-delusion. A long time ago Kh. Sujin explained that it is a kind of wisdom to do what is suitable for the body, like stretching at the right time. One should not torture oneself sitting all day. The Buddha recommended the alley walk to the monks. Kh Sujin walked fast in India in the early morning, and also when we visited her in Keng Kracang. But while walking she was so kind to give us Dhamma reminders. There can be mindfulness also when walking. Of course, lobha arises time and again, but there are different moments. Yes samalobha, but, I would not see it as if it makes it possible for us to live in the world. So many moments of akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by ahirika, shamelessness and anottappa, lack of fear of the danger of akusala. They are unknown. You asked before: why bother with the Visuddhimagga since they are also in my Cetasikas. Believe it or not, but these subjects are always new to me. I like to consider them from different angles. Nina. op 24-05-2005 02:56 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I walk (fast) for about an hour before teaching and my > classes are excellent. I have been refreshed and invigorated, there > is lobha for exercise, for walking. But as a result of this lobha I > am a better teacher, a more generous and energetic and patient > teacher - the students benefit for sure. Of course there is so much > normal lobha - I forget the Pali - that makes it possible for us to > live in the world. (samalobha?) 45971 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: Five Generations htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: Everyone who responded this this post, thank you so much. This is the last part of my investigation and where it lead me...all I can say is Wow...much reflection will be done (without pushing it..) http://www.dhammastudy.com/Vsm18.html THE PATH OF PURIFICATION (VISUDDHIMAGGA) Chapter XVIII: Description of Purification of View (Ditthi-visuddhi-niddesa) 29. But when a man rejects this correct vision no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll - Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks. At the end of this site I found this passage: The Blessed One said "Bhikkhus, without directly knowing, without fully understanding all, without causing the fading away of greed for it without abandoning it, the mind is incapable of the destruction of suffering" (S.iv,17). I see greed in the belief in a permanent self and the belief in a no-self, that there is no thing there at all, they seem to be the same to me, both dangerous because they are made up and come from wanting something to be true even though I do not know, I wish it were true, to be truly not there or to be here for ever and ever...very greedy. I had always thought of it as aversion and craving but I can see it as greed both ways too. With metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Anumodana with your study, Htoo 45972 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Desirable object - not important? nilovg Hi Phil, op 24-05-2005 02:27 schreef Philip op philco777@...: You and Kh Sujin and > others were talking about nimitta (sign.) There is seeing, but > always so much more thinking about what was seen, and what we think > about after the seeing has fallen away is nimiita. Actually, I don't > understand the difference between pannati (concept) and nimiita > (sign.) Is the latter a more specific terms, an example of the > former? -------- N: We read in the suttas about seeing and after that paying attention to the image, nimitta, and the details, vyancana. This is what happens all the time. We are absorbed in the images of people and things, and think of the details that were seen. Yes, they are concepts, but it is useful to know what is going on at this moment. Nimitta has several meanings, it is also used in samatha. But there it has a specific meaning. The mental image of a meditation subject. Like the nimitta of breath. ------- Ph: I *think* that feeling is more likely > to appear to my ignorant mind than other dhammas.. > We often hear that understanding nama from rupa is the "first > stage of tender insight" (to quote you) - feeling can be an object > that can help us here because it is hard for me to distinguish > mental feeling from body feeling at times. ----------- N: As you mention, it is difficult to know feeling before the first stage of insight. Of course, bodily feeling is an extremely short moment of vipaaka, arising with body-consciousness. Feeling accompanying akusala cittas that think about vipaaka arise so soon after that. Mental feeling also conditions bodily phenomena, thus, there is no end to the tangle. We are bound to take feelings for self, we find them very important. I think it is helpful not to have any idea about which phenomenon can help us more than others. Then it seems that there is a preference, a selection. As Kh Sujin said about breath: I read to Lodewijk Jon's words: Lodewijk found that most helpful. Nina. 45973 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,160 nilovg Dear Htoo, The translation leads to confusion. Anottappa is translated here as shamelessness, but in other translations the word shamelessness is used for ahirika. So, what you read about absence of dread refers to anottappa. We see again that the Pali is very necessary. Nina. op 24-05-2005 11:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: .... 'Shamelessness' has the characteristic of absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of >> absence of anxiety about them. > ---------------- > Dear Larry, > > Why dread on their account? Isn't it 'ahirika' that you are referring > to? 45974 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comments. But here is a point to argue. You wrote: S: Yes, this is true. Surely also our accumulations....pakatu upanissaya paccaya again. Even the lokuttara cittas (with nibbana as object) are not always accompanied by piiti and somanassa..... -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: I think all 8 lokuttara cittas are accompanied by 'great great piiti and great great somanassa'. I know you will be referring to lokuttara jhaana cittas. Once I made a shock to Amara. Once she said that in one of lokuttara cittas there is no vitakka. I asked her 'isn't vitakka samma-sankappa'? She shut up. Likewise I believe there are piiti and somanassa in lokuttara cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Apology for inclusion of outside person. 45975 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unwholesome consciousness htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is > > listening his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly > > happy because he does not fully understand adult's speech. But as > > there is lobha he is listening actively. There is wrong view as he > > does not know kamma well. And no one is urging him to listen. > ... > S: We discussed this one before and I mentioned that it didn't sound like > an example of wrong view. He's not thinking about kamma. We had a long > discussion and I seemed to recall you agreed with the point at the end, > but it's popped up in repetition again. You may like to check back:). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reminder. Yes, it is. With respect, Htoo Naing 45976 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: dry insight and rebirth of anaagaamii. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > > Dear Nina, > > > > Thanks for your reply. I think, Sarah and I argued on > > phala-samapatti. > > Abhidhammatthasangaha says all phalatthaana puggala can attain > > furition- > > attainment. > ... > S: I don't recall any 'argument' ...what I do recall is that you had > referred to *all* ariyans being able to experience phala-samapatti and I > gave many references and comments to show (as Nina also just requoted) > that this only applies to those ariyans who have obtained jhanas. Again, I > believe you agreed. See 'phala-samapatti'/fruition consciousness in U.P. > for more. As Nina, said, when we read the texts, such as Abhidhammattha > sangaha, we have to know the context or whom it is referring to. Sometimes > it's difficult, I know, like the comment under citta visuddhi we > discussed. > > On Sukkha-vipassakas, also in U.P. see 'Jhana and Nibbana', 'Susima > Sutta', 'Yuganaddha Sutta' (sp?) and lots more.... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Of course. Abhidhammatthasangaha says 'all ariyas can attain furition- attainment'. We have argued on that and I agreed. Thanks, Htoo Naing 45977 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,160 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > The translation leads to confusion. Anottappa is translated here as > shamelessness, but in other translations the word shamelessness is used for > ahirika. > So, what you read about absence of dread refers to anottappa. > We see again that the Pali is very necessary.S: Yes, this is true. Surely also our accumulations....pakatu upanissaya paccaya again. Even the lokuttara cittas (with nibbana as object) are not always accompanied by piiti and somanassa..... > Nina. > op 24-05-2005 11:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > .... 'Shamelessness' has the characteristic of absence of dread on their > account, or it has the characteristic of > >> absence of anxiety about them. > > ---------------- > > Dear Larry, > > > > Why dread on their account? Isn't it 'ahirika' that you are referring > > to? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your message on anottappa and ahirika and translation matter. You said 'We see again that the Pali is very necessary'. I also agree. But as others would think I am not reviving Pali language but just stick to essential Pali words for understanding on Dhamma as The Buddha intended. With respect, Htoo Naing 45978 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, ... S: A characteristic (lakkhana) of reality. Not a concept. Metta, Sarah ======== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: So you think it is like you explained in Citta A-Citta B business. With respect, Htoo Naing 45979 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Hi Matheesha, [*Htoo] I appreciate the general tone of your letter and the questions you asked. :-) Please don¡¦t mind the long winded response. =========================== > > A moment of satipatthana would be accompanied by detachment, > > certainly not any idea about `wanting' to develop kusala or more > sati. > > > M: I'm trying to clarify the point for myself here. Are you saying > that since Intention is most likely to be based on lobha, dosa, > moha, and since satipttana should be done without lobha, it is not > possible to have an intention to do Satipttana? (ie-it would not be > satipattana) Sukinder: Not only this, but ¡¥intention¡¦, whether akusala or kusala, with or without panna, is not key in giving rise to any state. Past accumulations and Upanissaya paccaya play the major role in deciding if at any given moment, upon perception of an object, that this will be followed by akusala or akusala. If avijja arises, there is no being reminded about kusala, and if sati and panna arises, this is already conditioned. ========================== > S:so too sati when it does arise > > does so by conditions beyond control. The idea of `doing' something to > > develop sati goes against this understanding about the conditioned > > nature of realities. > > M: So what are the conditions for sati to arise? Sukinder: Broadly, associating with the wise, hearing the Dhamma, reflecting on it, and applying it. But none of this is brought about by intention. ========================= > M: If someone has intension to move a leg, the following nama-rupa > ('moving the leg') is conditioned by that intention.What is your > understanding of this? Sukinder: This is a conventional activity, not involving the question of bringing about particular states of mind. The intention to move your leg is already conditioned and if you waver whether to do it or not, even this is conditioned and as you know, is not a matter of free will. And whether there is going to be a doubt and a debate whether or not there is ¡¥choice¡¦, all this is conditioned mainly by accumulations. Likewise, if there were instead a moment of satipatthana and ¡¥intention¡¦ is insighted, this would be because of the accumulated sati and panna. ========================== > S:> We can only appreciate, intellectually at first, the idea about the factors > > to sotapatti, i.e. association with the wise, hearing the correct dhamma, > > reflecting on it and applying it. In all this however, it is not > > about `intending', but about `understanding'. > > M: So there is no intention to associate with the wise ..but yet we > understand? I'm sorry but how can you come to any undrstanding > without actually doing something about it first (I'm thinking about > the actual act) ..associating with the wise, engaging in an egroup > etc. Then you can begin to understand. The intension has arisen and > passed away, then you can begin to understand. Sukinder: As I said above, these are conventional activities and they can be carried out without any awareness of what is actually going on. However, when and if there is satipatthana at any given moment, then one will see that these factors are not about the conventional activity, but about panna which ¡¥knows¡¦. How can I after all associate with the wise if there is no panna here? Wisdom is attracted to wisdom, and other conditions, including parami and kamma, will work their way in deciding if indeed there will actually be any association with the wise. I could be engaging in egroups thinking that I am doing the right thing, but miccha ditthi is attracted to miccha ditthi and there is no arguing with this about what is indeed wisdom. ;-) Birds of a feather flock together kind of thing. See how it is all about conditions and not intention? Intending to read the Tipitaka does not necessitate the correct interpretation. Many come to DSG and quickly rush out. So the intention to do any of these conventional acts is not key, though they will be done and will bear fruit for those who have the right accumulations. =============================== > S:It may or may not even be any real > > understanding which sees the difference between theory and practice; > > even non-Buddhists can see this difference. But what follows is not that > > simple. This is what makes Dhamma special and hard to see. > > M: :) can you explain this a bit more.. Sukinder: Everyone understands that the verbal description of an experiential reality is not the same as the actual experience. For anyone who wants to understand the actual experience as against the description of it, he seeks to do it. The worldling perceives and conceives everything as me, mine and I, so to him experiencing a reality, is presupposing the existence of ¡¥things¡¦ and a ¡¥self¡¦ who experiences. He then goes about ¡§learning¡¨ and basing his understanding on his conceivings and his world view is built on that, some better sounding and hence more convincing than others. But the Buddha¡¦s teaching on dhatus, ayatanas and nama/rupa is completely different and opposed to what the worldling understands. It is based on the world view of the ariyan. There are no ¡¥things¡¦ out there, but only elements of experience, such as seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, ignorance, greed, wisdom, mindfulness and so on. The fact that these are conditioned by complex set of conditions and that they arise and fall in an instant, the development of understanding is totally different from any other teachings. It should also then give us pause as to the question of ¡¥doing¡¦ anything to cause good states to arise. Whenever we think we can or should do certain things to develop wisdom, we should be wary of avijja. It is in relation to this avijja that Dhamma is hard to see. The special and unique quality of Dhamma becomes apparent as we understand better and better how this is the only way to come to understand reality, and how ¡¥wrong¡¦ in this regard, every other teachings and philosophy is. ============================ > > what we will see is that, the idea of `doing' arises precisely > because we are still not very firm on the level of `intellectual > understanding' to begin with. > > M: Might I suggest that seeing the idea of 'doing', as something > incompatible with the understanding of anatta (I assume you are > talking about that with the mention of ditti), is incomplete > understanding. > 'Doing' is also anatta. 'Doing' does not point towards a self or a > self view in someone without it. Sukinder: Yes, but this is not for the person who ¡¥meditates¡¦ (to mean any intentional observing of experiences), to say. The question that must be asked is, whether it is sati and panna which meditates? Or is this a justification by ¡¥self¡¦ for what it believes in and wants to follow? A moment of understanding does not condition an idea about any particular activity to be done. What is after all understood are ¡§realities¡¨ and not situations and activities? ======================== > M: He would see it as another dhamma > which has existed before and after irradication of self view. It > does not require a self to 'do'. Because there never was a self to > begin with anyway ..but he was still 'doing'. A person with a self > view can begin to Do the work of observing the aggragates and > understand no self. Sukinder: The correct sequence is: Pativedha „³ Patipatti „³ Pariyatti and not, Pariyatti (right or wrong) „³ Patipatti (wrong) „³ patipatti (right) „³ Pativedha If there is a ¡¥self¡¦ doing patipatti, you can be sure that it is ¡¥wrong¡¦. This is why I question if in fact the pariyatti was right to start with. ================================ > S:> "Do I devote time to such a practice?" Again there is no "I" to > do anything. > > M: :), even the buddha used the word 'I'. It's convenient, so lets > use it! You're probably being only reflective though. Sukinder: No, I question the idea of ¡§devoting time to such a practice¡¨. There are only conditions; hence no ¡§I¡¨ to make a resolution in spite of any required positive conditions which might be needed for any ongoing patipatti. ============================== > S:> This then sometimes gives rise to the thought about `doing something' > > to be rid of all this akusala. But really, what can be done? There > *is no control over dhammas. > > M: I hear this being repeated in the group. There is no control over > its arising and passing away, but we can influence what arises and > passess away. We cant influence the structure but we can influence > the content. Sukinder: Again is the ¡¥we influence¡¦ in fact sati and panna or any other form of kusala? Or is it rooted in moha and we are fooled by thoughts of sincerity towards developing panna? ======================== > S:We can't make pariyatti arise, likewise how can > > we patipatti? > > M: ..but you can influence the conditions so that they may arise on > their own? You can bring yourself to read a book on dhamma, then > understanding may arise. Sukinder: Even to read a book is a matter of conditions beyond control. If while reading, there is understanding, then it is not because of any initial intention, but Upanissaya paccaya and accumulations. But you are trying to compare reading with meditating. One major difference between the two is that to have intellectual understanding there must be hearing or reading descriptions of Dhamma, but of course the main factor is panna of any corresponding level. Patipatti requires a corresponding level of panna that knows ¡¥realities¡¦, and this is neither posture nor situation specific. It depends rather on accumulations and major paccaya is decisive support condition. And this is conditioned by pariyatti and not any ¡¥intention¡¦ to arouse it. ================================ > S:Certainly we should not fall prey to desire and wrong > > view and thus follow any practice without reflection. Wrong > pariyatti will condition wrong patipatti. > > M: Thats reasonable. But how will you know when you have accumlated > enough panna to start patipatti, or do you not plan to do it in this > lifetime? Sukinder: Hopefully such an idea will not occur in any subsequent lifetime, but I am sure it will. No, it is not a matter of deciding to accumulate pariyatti to a certain level and then deciding to practice. It is all about having the correct pariyatti arise again and again each time that we are confronted with this question about theory and practice, knowing that patipatti will occur when the conditions are right. And that this is not about any decision to ¡¥do¡¦ it. *And here I think Htoo likewise misunderstood Robert K¡¦s remark about the archer. There is no idea about accumulating any level of understanding first. There can be patipatti even at the early stages and these two support each other. In fact they must, otherwise pariyatti cannot grow to be firm. Looong post, sorry for this. :-) Mettam Sukinder 45980 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 23, 2005 11:42pm Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 5! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, it does so caused by Consciousness ! Another consequent consideration is: By ending Consciousness , there cannot ever arise any Misery ! Knowing this danger: - All Suffering emerges due to Consciousness, by stopping consciousness, there cannot ever be any arising of any Pain! -, the intelligent one quench his craving, and urge for being conscious... Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter the state of Nibbana right here & now in this life, or if there is lasting traces of clinging left, the state of a non-returner... Those who neglect understanding Consciousness, cause of Consciousness, the End of Consciousness, & how Consciousness is completely eliminated, are incapable of release by understanding, are thus incapable of mental release, are incapable of direct knowledge, and are thereby incapable of making an end...They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again... While those who undertake understanding of Consciousness, Origin, End & Way, are quite capable of mental release by understanding, and capable of making an end... They are near the deathless dimension! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma http://groups.yahoo.com/group/What_Buddha_Said Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45981 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (Attn: Andrew, Sarah and other DSG members) - It is important, very important, to at least learn Pali words to have clear understanding of their meanings -- because the Pali text of the Suttanta- pitaka was the Buddha's words. So, I must say, I always appreciate Dhamma discussers who carefully examine the Pali text. Then comes the hardest part -- to make sure that we have the right translation. Thank you, Htoo, for emphasizing the practical aspects of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta : it is beyond any doubt that all cetasikas (such as sati and sampajanna) are conditioned realities and, therefore, must be conditioned by right exertions that are on-going throughout the day: viharati, or 'dwell in practising' as you put it. It is true that there must be no desire or determination on the meditator's mind to force end results to come quickly. But whoever says that should worry no more, because the sutta clearly states 'anissaito ca viharati' and 'na ca kinci loke upaadiyati'. If you dwell in practice with detachment and without clinging to anything (in the world), then how can you be motivated by 'lobha' and be confused by self clinging (atta-vadupadana)? Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > (snipped) > ---------------------- > Dear Tep, > > The life of 'Mahaasatipatthaana' resides in 'viharati,aataapi > sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m' > > and also resides in 'yaavodeva ~naanamattaaya patissatimattaaya, anissito ca viharati, na ca kinci loke upaadiyati,'. > (snipped) > 1. ~naanamattaaya > > To develop ~naana or panna. Here again DSGs will deny. Because > 'panna' cannot be controlled. > > 2. patissatimattaaya > > To develop sati. Here DSGs will deny. Because 'sati' cannot be > controlled. > 45982 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 24, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 24-05-2005 01:27 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Avijja is strong. It wont > give up easily. We need to prove to it beyond any reasonable doubt > that the tilakkana are true. That is why it is better done with > every moment and not just one moment, because every time we stop, we > sink back into avijja based thinking. Also for the rising of > aanantarika samadhi the continued sati and sampajanna is important. > This is not for panna, but moving further into vimukti. ------ N: Sati at every moment is not possible. Seeing is vipaakacitta, no sati. Many akusala cittas are bound to arise, no sati, it is just our daily life. But they can be known by sati sampajannña when they appear. They can appear to sati. I like to be reminded to be sincere and truthful. Only pañña leads to vimutti, freedom from defilements. The aanantarika (uninterrupted) samadhi is not necessary for the development of paññaa. This is the result of the development of jhaana. Nina. 45983 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 24, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 200 - Enthusiasm/piiti (r) nilovg Hi Sarah and Htoo, I would like to add something from the commentary, taken from the Vis. series, on maha-kusala citta with paññaa, accompanied by pleasant feeling and piiti: We read in the (Expositor I, p. 100): When there is strong confidence in the Triple Gem and the development of kusala, including right understanding, there are conditions for kusala citta with pa~n~naa that is accompanied by pleasant feeling and enthusiasm (piiti). Nina op 24-05-2005 11:10 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > x Which factors can condition kusala citta with píti and >> somanassa? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Htoo; >> >> Answer x) >> >> The object can condition kusala citta with piiti and somanassa. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: Yes, this is true. Surely also our accumulations....pakatu upanissaya > paccaya again. Even the lokuttara cittas (with nibbana as object) are not > always accompanied by piiti and somanassa..... > ... 45984 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 6:56am Subject: A visit to a site htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Just a visit to a site. How do you think? 'http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol1/god_is_dead.html' With Metta, Htoo Naing 45985 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo (Attn: Andrew, Sarah and other DSG members) - It is important, very important, to at least learn Pali words to have clear understanding of their meanings -- because the Pali text of the Suttanta-pitaka was the Buddha's words. So, I must say, I always appreciate Dhamma discussers who carefully examine the Pali text. Then comes the hardest part -- to make sure that we have the right translation. Thank you, Htoo, for emphasizing the practical aspects of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta : it is beyond any doubt that all cetasikas (such as sati and sampajanna) are conditioned realities and, therefore, must be conditioned by right exertions that are on-going throughout the day: viharati, or 'dwell in practising' as you put it. It is true that there must be no desire or determination on the meditator's mind to force end results to come quickly. But whoever says that should worry no more, because the sutta clearly states 'anissaito ca viharati' and 'na ca kinci loke upaadiyati'. If you dwell in practice with detachment and without clinging to anything (in the world), then how can you be motivated by 'lobha' and be confused by self clinging (atta-vadupadana)? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. It is the essence. Sensitive studying will lead to understanding. When understand, there will not be any issue whether there is a self 'sitting somewhere' at 'a particular time' and trying to develop 'sati and panna'. With Metta, 45986 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Hi Matheesha, [*Htoo] *And here I think Htoo likewise misunderstood Robert K¡¦s remark about the archer. There is no idea about accumulating any level of understanding first. There can be patipatti even at the early stages and these two support each other. In fact they must, otherwise pariyatti cannot grow to be firm. Looong post, sorry for this. :-) Mettam Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, I do not know what you mean by 'misunderstood Robert K'. Could you please elaborate? With respect, Htoo Naing 45987 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Control philofillet Hi again James, and all James > > Why are you > > assuming that nothing he said should be taken literally? Is this what > > you are assuming? Have you done an extensive reading of the suttas to > > come to this conclusion? I am asking because, of course, I don't > > agree. I see both modes of speech in the Buddha's discourses and > > wonder why you are making this generalization lately. > (snip) Phil >I think the danger in taking suttas too literally is > > 1) people take descriptions of attainments for suggested practices. (snip) > 2) We are reading a translator's words. (snip) > Those are just two quick thoughts off the top of my head as I leave > for work. I'll think about it some more. > Phil: Back from work, and I did think about it some more. As I walked to the station, I was listening to a tape of Dhammapada that I recorded myself. Two thoughts on control that arose from this walk/listen. 1) I heard the line "a well-tamed mind brings happiness" and I thought that, in this case, the problem wouldn't be that people would take it too literally but that they wouldn't take it literally enough. This is describing a result, not prescribing a practice. Thus the passive voice - it doesn't say "tmae your mind and you will be happy." But in our eagerness to start practicing, we might think we should intentionally bear down and tame our mind. Whether we take suttas too literally, or not literally enough, there is always such a danger that we will interpret them in ways that please our deluded belief in self (ie Mara, who uses our deluded belief in self to trap us deeper and deeper in the quagmire of lust, hate and delusion.) 2) Here's a nice anecdote about the way control arises gradually without the need to try to have control. As I was walking, I heard the beautiful verse about the monk going to receive alms in a village the way a bee takes nectar from a flower without damaging the blossom or the colour or the fragrance or something like that. I reflected briefly on harmlessness as I walked, but made no resolutions. Soon after, I walked through that perfume section of the Takashimaya department store that I have mentionned before, which is often a place where I am prey to feelings of lust and greed. Today, as I passed through it, I became aware of a friendly, ungreedy feeling that I dare say was alobha or metta or something. There were all these lovely sales assistants, as always, and I was feeling so unlustful. And I realized that this contol had arisen ever so subtly (perhaps - we never know conditions so closely) as a result of having listened to that verse about the monk going through the village in a harmless way. I have been walking through the perfume section for about 3 months. I have never once vowed not to have lustful feelings, but by discussing it here and reflecting on it now and then and hearing suitable sutta passages that nourish my intellectual understand and "refresh the citta" (perhaps) control is arising. And there is so much less wwrong view involved - never the insistence on trying to control the arising of akusala by making vows. I think this is a very good example of the way kusala can arise in a natural way, gradually. It gives me confidence in kusala. I feel very confident in kusala tonight. And less likely to intentionally try to have more kusala. I'll keep listening, keep discussing, keep reflecting... Metta, Phil 45988 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 7:32am Subject: Pali basis htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 33 Pali letters and 8 vowels. 33 letters are a) K, Kh, G, Gh, `N b) C, Ch, J, Jh, ~N c) .T, .Th, .D, .Dh, .N d) T, Th, D, Dh, N e) P, Ph, B, Bh, M f) Y, R, L, V, S g) H, .L, .m There are 8 vowels. They are 1) a 2) aa 3) i 4) ii 5) u 6) uu 7) e 8) o Odd numbered vowels are short vowels and even numbered vowels are long vowels. The exception is 7)e. It is a long vowel. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45989 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:38am Subject: What is There in the "Object" and What is Known of It upasaka_howard Hi, all - Just a brief thought that occurred to me while on vacation: Let us consider a single mindstate - for example, a state of seeing. What is involved in that visual object? As I understand it to be the case, that experiential object is an entire palette of varying colors and intensities of color and brightness at varying "locations". There are also relational patterns among the parts of that object, quite intricate in their complexity. All that is there, but isn't known at all in detail but only as a unity. It takes enormous subsequent mental processing (vedanic and sa~n~nic processing), probably not to carve out, characterize, and recognize all the detailed aspects and internal relations, let alone the relations holding among this given mindstate and others. What that processing reveals was there to begin with but only implicit in the original mindstate. Perhaps in an advanced ariyan developed wisdom can directly grasp all the details without additional processing, but for worldlings and lesser ariyans, without the subsequent processing some of which we must properly think of as elementary, proto-conceptual processing, most of the factual detail of our experience would be missing. My point, then, is not to be too quick to turn up our noses at the cognitive, "indirect" processing that is in constant operation. Without it, we would each be much like what David Kalupahana, quoting William James, likes to call a sessile sea anemone. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45990 From: Ken O Date: Tue May 24, 2005 8:40am Subject: question on seeking permission from parents ashkenn2k Hi all One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a monk A friend ask me two questions a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either one will do b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in the family. If the family has a few children, then as long as there are some children not ordained, one of them who wished to be obtained, dont need the parent permission. I said I have to checked, I really dont know about this point as I only know one needs parents' permisson. Please kindly comment Ken O 45991 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 9:31am Subject: Re: question on seeking permission from parents htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi all > > One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a monk > A friend ask me two questions > a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either one will > do > b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in the > family. If the family has a few children, then as long as there are > some children not ordained, one of them who wished to be obtained, > dont need the parent permission. I said I have to checked, I really > dont know about this point as I only know one needs parents' > permisson. > > Please kindly comment > > Ken O -------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, Bhikkhu Dhammanando will be able to answer your questions. I think it is in the session of requisites to become an ordained bhikkhu. Raahulaa was ordained without permission from Yasodharaa. And without permission from King Suddhodana, who was the grandfather. The grandfather, the king Suddhodana, the father of Siddhattha Gotama had a great expectation on Raahulaa. When Raahulaa was ordained the king lost all his hope and felt very sorry and complained to The Buddha. The Buddha laid out a vinaya that those who are not allowed by their parents should not be ordained. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45992 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 9:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (421) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhaana factors. And there are 5 ruupa jhaanas. Basing on these 5 jhaanas there are 5 rupavacara rupakusala cittas, 5 rupavacara rupakiriya cittas, and 5 rupavacara rupavipaka cittas. Kiriya cittas are abyaakata dhamma and they do not have any kamma. But kusala have kamma and it is kusala kamma. So as there are 5 rupavacara rupakusala kamma according to 5 ruupa jhaana, there are 5 kammas as ruupa-kamma. When these kamma have a chance to give rise to their effects that is 5th jhaana rupavipaka cittas they will give the results straight away. Rupavipaaka cittas are living-consciousness of rupa brahmaas. The first consciousness in their life is called patisandhi citta or linking consciousness or rebirth consciousness. They are ruupavipaaka cittas. When they arise as the last moment consciousness they are called cuti cittas or dying-consciousness or life-ceasing consciousness or life-ending consciousness. In between these 2 cittas of patisandhi citta and cuti citta there are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness if there is no vithi cittas arise. If vithi cittas arise most of their vithi cittas will be jhaana cittas or corresponding bhuumi or realm even though there may arise other non-jhaana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45993 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 9:54am Subject: Dhamma Thread (422) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are catu-catukka kamma or 4 sets of 4-kamma. The first 3 sets have been discussed in the earlier posts. The last set of 4 kamma is 1. akusala kamma 2. kaamaavacara kusala kamma 3. rupakusala kamma 4. arupakusala kamma The first 3 kamma have been discussed. Before aruupa kamma are discussed, first we have to understand what aruupa jhaanas are. Aruupa jhaanas are mental absorptive states that do not based on any of rupa related object. There are 4 aruupa jhaanas. They are 1. aakaasananca-ayatana or 'sphere of boundless space' 2. vinnaananca-ayatana or 'sphere of boundless consciousness' 3. akincinna-ayatana or 'sphere of nothingness' 4. n'evasannaa-naasanna-ayatana or 'sphere of neither perception nor non-perception'. They arise stepwise fashion that is one after another. The first step is to develop 1st aruupa jhaana or 'aakaasananca- ayatana aruupa jhaana'. This jhaana is based on 5th ruupa jhaana. Before one can attain 1st aruupa jhaana he or she will have to proficiate his or her 5th ruupa jhaana. This 5th ruupa jhaana has to be based on one of 9 kasina kammatthaana. Aakaasa kasina cannot be used as the base for aakaasananca-ayatana aruupa jhaana. Because the object itself has already been 'space'. So there is no way to do 'space' to 'space'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45994 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 10:27am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (422) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are catu-catukka kamma or 4 sets of 4-kamma. The first 3 sets have been discussed in the earlier posts. The last set of 4 kamma is 1. akusala kamma 2. kaamaavacara kusala kamma 3. rupakusala kamma 4. arupakusala kamma ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: catu = four catukka = a group of four kamma = kamma, action, potentials, seeds akusala = bad deed or unwholesome deed kaamaavacara = kaama + avacara = pertaining to sensuous sphere rupakusala = wholesome deed pertaining to rupa-brahma sphere arupakusala = ,, ,, arupa-brahma sphere ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The first 3 kamma have been discussed. Before aruupa kamma are discussed, first we have to understand what aruupa jhaanas are. Aruupa jhaanas are mental absorptive states that do not based on any of rupa related object. There are 4 aruupa jhaanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: jhaana = mental state absorbing into object while opposite dhamma or enemies are burnt out aruupa jhaana = absorptive state not related to material objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- They are 1. aakaasananca-ayatana or 'sphere of boundless space' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: aakaasananca-ayatana = aakaasa + anca + ayatana = aakaasa + ananta + ayatana aakaasa = space or void, free or empty ananta = endless, countless, limitless, boundless ayatana = sphere where the mind enjoys, site where the mind dwells place where the mind stays, station where the mind officiate Aakaasa-ananta = aakasananca So it means 'boundless space as the sphere of the mind' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. vinnaananca-ayatana or 'sphere of boundless consciousness' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: vinnaananca-ayatana = vinnaana + anca + ayatana = vinnaana + ananta + ayatana vinnana + ananta = vinnaana-ananta or vinnaanananca vinnaana = consciousness [here 1st arupakusala cittas] ananta = boundless, limitless, endless ayatana = sphere where the mind enjoys vinnaananancayatana = 'the sphere of boundless consciousness' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. akincinna-ayatana or 'sphere of nothingness' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: akincinna-ayatana = aakinci + anca + ayatana aakinci + ananta + ayatana ki~nci = something ana kinci or aakinci = not something, not a thing, nothing ananta = boundless, limitless, endless ayatana = the sphere where the mind enjoys aaki~nci~nna-ayatana = 'the sphere of nothingness' So this means everywhere is nothing. Up is nothing. Down is nothing. Front is nothing. Back is nothing. Sides are nothing. Centre is also nothing. Everywhere is nothing. This sounds like 'the object is nothing'. When the object is like nothing it is hard to say that the consciousness which takes that nothingness as its object is there or not or whether that citta perceive nothing or does not perceive nothing is hard thing to considered. This is for the next step. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. n'evasannaa-naasanna-ayatana or 'sphere of neither perception nor non-perception'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: n'evasannaa-naasanna-ayatana = na + eva + sanna + na-sanna + ayatana This is frequently translated as 'neither ...nor..'. In Pali there are few words for such expression like 'either ..or..' 'neither..nor..' eva = such na = no, not, none sanna = perception na-sanna = non-perception ayatana = sphere where the mind enjoys So nevasannanasanna-ayatana means 'the sphere of neither-perception- nor-non-perception'. There does exist a sphere for the mind. That sphere is hard to be said whether there is perception. And equally it is hard to say whether there is no perception at all. Such sphere [eva] is not[na] perception [sanna] is not[na] non-perception [na-sanna] Such sphere is 'neither perception nor non-perception'. But there does exist a sphere. It is the object of 4th aruupa jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- They arise stepwise fashion that is one after another. The first step is to develop 1st aruupa jhaana or 'aakaasananca- ayatana aruupa jhaana'. This jhaana is based on 5th ruupa jhaana. Before one can attain 1st aruupa jhaana he or she will have to proficiate his or her 5th ruupa jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: proficiate = make proficient ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This 5th ruupa jhaana has to be based on one of 9 kasina kammatthaana. Aakaasa kasina cannot be used as the base for aakaasananca-ayatana aruupa jhaana. Because the object itself has already been 'space'. So there is no way to do 'space' to 'space'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your patience. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45995 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 10:34am Subject: Robert K's attention htootintnaing Dear Robert K, I think once you and I talked on the matter of chanda, tanha etc and I quoted some westerner's writing. Now I found it again and here I link it for your attention. 'http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html' I do not think that the ideas are right. When you have checked them all could you please comment on those ideas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45996 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 10:39am Subject: Anyone can join and enjoy htootintnaing Dear Robert K, Could you please check these statements of Robert Morrison's 'Three Cheers of Tanha'. quote: ''[32] Using this model, we can therefore fill out the statement 'he abandons ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa': ta.nhaa, whose aims and objects are within sa.msaara, is to be abandoned by developing 'appropriate' [tajja] ta.nhaa, which is a form of ta.nhaa that can become 'appeased' as its aim is Arahantship. But what form would this appropriate ta.nhaa take? Although there are no such terms in the suttas as 'thirsting after Arahantship' (arahatta-ta.nhaa), or 'thirsting after the Dhamma' (dhamma-ta.nhaa),[33] the notion that ta.nhaa can have Arahantship as its aim is found in the post- canonical Nettippakara.na:[34]'' What do you think? With respect, Htoo Naing 45997 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Refreshing the citta, piiti (a) philofillet Hi Nina > Yes samalobha, but, I would not see it as if it makes it possible for us to > live in the world. > So many moments of akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by ahirika, > shamelessness and anottappa, lack of fear of the danger of akusala. They are > unknown. Ph: I don't quite understand here, Nina. The "I would not see it as if it makes us possible to live in the world." Do you mean that it would be negligent to think so, being too comfortable with samalobha? Shameless? WHen I think of samalobha I usually think either of Rob K's ice cream or your reaching out to the hot water tap when in the bath. Harmless but inevitable for worldlings. If we didn't have it, it would be unnatural. That's what I meant by "makes it possible..." Are you warning against being complacent about samlobha? Thanks in advance Metta, Phil 45998 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - This is my reply to your message # 45766 on 5/20/05. S: I'll look forward to your next summary of agreed points, unresolved and continued dialogue, Tep. T: It took me longer this time because my communication line was overloaded with the information signals from DSG. ----------------------------------------- S: I love the way you set out the discussions with `agreed points' etc. Very helpful. T: I am glad you like to see summarized key points; they help us detect a miscommunication quickly. The in-line dialogue technique is useful only because it separates out relevant issues for further analysis and evaluation so that a conclusion may be drawn. Its disadvantage is that messages can become longer and longer because of the branching out of issues. Sometimes, new issues may be raised even when old ones have not yet been concluded. Therefore, once in a while we need to step away and look at the current state of discussion in perspective. Then we can throw away the agreed points (no need to dwell on them anymore) and refocus the discussion on the remaining unresolved issue(s), if any. ---------------------------------- S: So far so good. One minor point – `Clinging can be either with or without wrong view'. It cannot be with right view. Perhaps you mean, `Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view'?? T: I meant ditthupadana. ---------------------------------- >> Sarah: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti >>and not real. Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, >>and self is thus an illusion. > > Tep: By having the belief that there is no self (self is not real, not > existing), isn't that an extreme view? The two estremes are the >view of 'no self' and the view that self exists. .... S: I think you've changed my words a little:). The Buddha taught that all dhammas are anatta and that apart from these dhammas, nothing else exists. This is not an extreme view, it is the truth. Anything other than these (paramatha dhammas) are illusory or conceptual only. T: No, I have not. What the Buddha said about anatta was not the unresolved issue. The unresolved issue centers around what you said as shown above (" Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, >>and self is thus an illusion.") ---------------------------------- The Persisting Unresolved Issue ============================ > S: ... the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer >>or body or whatever else, are not real at all. The self or >>computer cannot be seen or heard or touched, they can only be >> imagined. >> T: It is not clear, Sarah, because everybody else will tell you >> that a computer and a body can be seen or heard of, and >>both can be touched. I assume that you also believe that >>money is a pannatti and so it is not real !! ... ... S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? 4. Again, when you open your wallet, what is seen? 5. When you take out the money, what is felt? 6. If there was no sanna marking and remembering objects from birth, would there be any idea of computer and money? 7. Yes, if someone stole my money I'd be sad. Can there not be attachment to concepts? T: Now you are trying to persuade me to think along the line of Ajahn Sujin's application of the Paramattha-dhamma concepts. Sincerely, I have a deep admiration of her skillful thoughts which are conditioned by decades of intensive study of the Paramattha-dhamma concepts. But I also sincerely believe that I need to pay attention only to what the Buddha taught about the salayatana (e.g. Majjhima Nikaya 137:Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta and Majjhima Nikaya 148: Chachakka Sutta) and paticca-samuppada (e.g. DN 15). This issue is not easy to be resolved, Sarah. The Dialogue Continues ------------------------------------ S: As we read elsewhere in suttas. all wrong views stem from a belief in self including annihilationist views.<"The view `self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view `no self exists for me' arises in him as true and established; or the view `I perceive self with self' arises in him as true and established...."I perceive not self with self'....'I perceive self with not-self...' > S: So we see these are all various forms of sakkaya ditthi. When someone says `no self exists for me' here, it is still the `me' or self that exists now and with the idea as I mentioned before that there are no conditioned dhammas, no kamma, no rebirth. In other words, it is quite the opposite of what we mean when we refer to dhammas as being anatta, conditioned, beyond control and so on as I think you suggested. T: It seems to me that you have grasped the Anatta principle pretty well now. But how should I understand your earlier statement ? <"The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion.> When you wrote "there is nothing to be taken as self", wasn't it the same as `no self exists for me' ? Thank you much for the consistent attention to details and the great energy you have demonstrated. I have a lot to learn from you here. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > .(snipped) > > The translators add that the commentary, MA "says that up to the > attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight > (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it denotes path- knowledge. > Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective > range is the mental and material phenomena [S: namas and rupas] comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aramma.na). Path- knowledge performs four functions regarding the four truths: it fully understands the truth of suffering, abandons the origin of suffering, realizes the cessation of suffering, and develops the way to the cessation of suffering." > .... > S: I understand this to be stressing that it is by understanding namas and rupas only that wrong views can be eradicated and the Four Noble Truths realized. This is the development of vipassana bhavana. A little later, exactly the same enlightenment factors starting with mindfulness are given to be developed as I quoted from the Abhidhamma. > > And it goes on to say: "While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in > one who does not develop these enlightenment factors, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who develops them." > 45999 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue May 24, 2005 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? matheesha333 Hi Htoo, Thanks for that detailed explanation. H:> Contact is already included when cakkhuvinnana arises. > > Again in naama-ruupa cakkhuppasaada is also included. So there is no > delay in 'naama-ruupa paccaya salaayatanaa' and also no delay > in 'salaayatana paccayaa phasso'. This is also right for 'phassa > paccayaa vedanaa'. > M: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" "No, lord." "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?" "No, lord." "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?" "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness." In the mahanidana sutta there is mention of how a foetus would die ie- no more arising of nama-rupa if consiousness were to 'depart'. It is possible to see salayathana sense bases as you mentioned in panna/vipassana mode, but I wonder if this could also seen as the sense organs themselves. This would mean that the the basic nama- rupa of a body giving rise to the more specialised sense organs later on. Having sense organs means (in conjunction with a sense object and vinnana, which at that stage is not mentioned -the DO only going down one single thread of causality and not attempting to bring all the threads together), that it is now possible to give rise to passa, contact. What I have experienced through vipassana is that vedana/sanna is experienced slightly after passa. This would explain the DO as well. Though it arises at the same time, the experiencing happens later, is another possiblity. But these are minor problems which miss the point of what this whole process is about. H:>> Because he sees naama, he sees ruupa. He does not depend on tanha, > lobha, upadaana, domanassa, abhijjhaa and he is liberated at that > moment' It is temporary realization of dukkha sacca. It is teporary removal > of samudaya sacca. It is temporary cessation of dukkha sacca. And it > is temporary development of magga sacca or the path. > > So there are all 4 sacca in yogi or meditator. But it is loki sacca > and it is not yet supramundane. M: Hmm.. I dont agree with this entirely. To say that understanding/panna is the same as vimukti,release is not right. There is no nirodha sacca in the process you described above. If you look at the upanisa sutta you will see that it has to go further after panna through the stages of nibbida etc to reach vimukti, to experience the unconditioned. There maybe moments without any surface lobha,dosa or moha, but this does not mean that the fetters to samsara have been broken. Better not to give premature reassurances. IMO it takes development of other mental faculties to take the process further into vimukti, not just panna, but opinions might differ. metta Matheesha