47000 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth jonoabb Hi Phil I'd like to endorse what Sarah says here about supporting one's parents. I think the suttas clearly indicate that the greatest form of support is support in the development of kusala, rather than physical support, and this accords with what one reads elsewhere in the suttas also. In the years preceding my mother's death I built up quite a close relationship with her by regular phone chats, and I think I was able to be helpful in ways that my 2 brothers living in the same city could not (at my mother's funeral quite a few of her friends came up to me a said how much my mother had appreciated my support). So although my visits home were rare, I have no regrets on that account. Very sorry to hear about your mother. I also sympathise with your father, who being the healthier spouse will have to bear the brunt of things. Jon sarah abbott wrote: >Whilst I appreciated Howard's and Colette's urging you to spend time with >your mother, I think there are different ways of doing this and of course, >when one lives and works overseas, one can't always drop all one's >commitments to be with one's parents physically. > >During Jonothan's mother's decline before she died, it was impossible for >him to get to Australia to be with her for long or often. However, he kept >in close contact by telephone, having long calls, listening and giving >helpful advice which family members nearby her were unable to do to the >same extent. > >... > >The other thing that struck me when I used to talked to his mother was how >she genuinely really wished her children to be happy in conventional >worldly ways. So knowing you and Naomi are happily and well-settled in >your Japanese life will bring your mother ease of mind as well, I'm sure. >I can also imagine that the Canadian health system provides very good >guidance and assistance for this illness these days. Let us know how it >goes. I expect you'll be there sometime in the summer anyway. > > 47001 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness & A question to Htoo jwromeijn Hallo Larry, Htoo and all Thanks for you information you gave me. The real topic of course is not the information as such but: what to do with it. Although I think never to get in the immaterial jhanas, because I do insight- meditation as is teached me, I think it's good and possible to comtemplate about 'nothingness'. And about the resemblance and the difference between this 'nothingness' and the 'emptiness' in Mahayana. One final remark to check if I do understand it wel: 'Akincannayatana' is a citta, so is a dhamma, which only can be experienced after a long precess of meditation. 'Nattibhava' or 'natthibhava-pannatti' is a concept, so not a dhamma itself, it's a object of absorption; and - my intention - it can be a object of contemplation, that is: without being in deep absorption. Metta Joop 47002 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >One nice thing about you that always entertains me is that regardless of >how many times I have tried to explain something to you, if you already >have a fixed belief in something else (normally, the opposite), then you >will 'manage' to turn it around back to what you believe in again (and >again, and again ...). This may be interpreted by other people as >stubbornness, or you may think of it as a characteristic of a strong and >successful leader! Take President Bush as an example. :-) > > I've been called some uncomplimentary things in the past, but being compared to President Bush is taking it to a new high (or low) ;-)). If there's one thing I can say about myself it is that I have no wish to be a leader of any kind. >Jon: But I was simply agreeing with you that when there is sati and >sampajanna there is the development of both samatha and insight, >and, as I would add, without the need for a separate 'samatha practice'. > >Tep: We are in agreement here (but not because of your >strong 'leadership' :-)) that samatha and vipassana can be yoked >together. A separate samatha practice is seen, for example, in the >Kayagatasati Sutta. But I am not saying that only samatha practice is >necessary and sufficient. > > Without meaning to turn your words around in any sense ;-)), my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not. But the central message remained the same, namely, insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhammas. >Jon: As I understand it, all mindfulness that is accompanied by panna >of the level of insight, however weak that insight may be, is also >accompanied by samma-samadhi, ... ... > >Tep: I have to confess that there have been several posts on 'samma- >samadhi' here, but I am still confused as to what the DSGers >understand as samma samadhi. Can you give me a quick description? >Samadhi is concentration. But what kind of concentration is samma- >samadhi? Can anyone get samma-samadhi from reflecting over the >five aggregates(or any dhamma of your choice) while in the bath room, >walking on a road, driving a car, or doing any daily activity? Can >samma-samadhi arise without the support of the other seven Path >factors? > > Yes, samadhi is concentration, but there are many kinds of concentration. What is conventionally understood as concentration, namely, being focussed on a single goal, includes both kusala and akusala states. There is nothing inherently kusala about concentration; it simply describes the singleness of object or purpose. Everyone who is good at something -- in business, sport, scientific research, etc. -- needs a lot of it. Similarly, concentrating on a single object, such as a candle light, mantra, or the like, requires concentration but does not require kusala of any degree. When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular. In the ultimate sense, samadhi is the mental factor (cetasika) of that name, just like insight is panna cetasika. >Tep: Good answer! So you say that any one of the four foundations of >mindfulness is equally good as the object of sati for any body posture >in the present moment. If this simple answer is correct, then why did the >Buddha talk in details about the various activities for training sati- >sampajanna through the 4 foundations [DN 22]? Why didn't he "save >his breaths" by simply saying as follows -- Monks, contemplate on any >of the four foundations of mindfulness in any body posture, any time of >the day, wherever you go, and you will gain samma-sati? > > Another good observation! Well I think he did in effect say to contemplate on any of the four foundations of mindfulness in any body posture, any time of the day, wherever you go, whatever you are doing, and he also went into greater detail too, giving particular emphasis to the rupas that we take for the body, for obvious reasons. Similarly, in teaching what 'dhammas' are -- they are presented (classified) in different ways, as khandhas, as ayatanas, as elements, as in the fourfold classification of the arousings of mindfulness, etc. I think you would agree that the contemplations on vedana, citta and dhammas as given in the other 3 sections of the Satipatthana Sutta are posture/activity independent. Yet obviously they can occur only at a time of either walking, standing, sitting or lying (as in the section on modes of deportment). >It seems that our dialogue will go on and on, and on ...until you drop >your strong leadership and look at dhamma for the sake of dhamma. > > I am grateful for the trouble you take to continue the discussion. Jon 47003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? Jon Dan D. wrote: >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare >cases, contented disinterest.) > >Metta, > >Dan > >Jon: "..the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that >follower of that doctrine could become arahants..." > > 47004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jonoabb Hi Colette Welcome to the group from me. In a post earlier this week you included the following that I think is a quote from somewhere: > "In the Suttas we often come across such phrases as 'ko hetu, ko > >paccayo' - 'what cause, what reason'. In the Abhidhamma both hetu and >paccaya are differentiated and are used in specific senses. The term >hetu is applied to the six roots explained above. Paccaya is an aiding >condition (upakaraka dhamma). Like the root of a tree is hetu. Paccaya >is like water, manure, etc." > > I'm interested in the term 'upakaraka dhamma', since the subject of whether conditions are or are not 'dhammas' has come up a few times. Does the source text have anything more to say about it? Thanks. Jon 47005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >I am not aware of drawing any distinction between these various >sections. Please paraphrase the distinction I drew, as you see it, or >quote to me where I drew that distinction. > > I've taken you at your word and done a quick 'Up Thread' search (see below). I understood you to be saying that while the section of the Satipatthana Sutta on contemplation of the body is suitable for lay-folk, because it provides specific activities to be followed, the other 3 sections (on feeling, consciousness and dhammas) do not provide specific activities to be followed and are not suitable for lay-folk. This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? Jon You said: James: The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. To which I replied: I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? To which you then replied: James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand aspirations! ;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46190 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46278 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46292 47006 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James and Tep) - In a message dated 6/26/05 9:17:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? =========================== The section on feelings is as follows: ------------------------------------- II. The Contemplation of Feeling And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings? Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I experience a pleasant feeling"; when experiencing a painful feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling," he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling." When experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant worldly feeling"; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling." Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.12 Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Isn't it straightforwardly implied here that the practice is paying attention, to see exactly what is happening? Moreover, isn't the prior practice on the body "to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness" preparatory practice? ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47007 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >I am not aware of drawing any distinction between these various > >sections. Please paraphrase the distinction I drew, as you see it, or > >quote to me where I drew that distinction. > > > > > > I've taken you at your word and done a quick 'Up Thread' search (see below). Now I understand a bit more why you came to the conclusion you did; however, I think you have read more into the dialogue than was there. I will explain further below. > > I understood you to be saying that while the section of the Satipatthana > Sutta on contemplation of the body is suitable for lay-folk, because it > provides specific activities to be followed, the other 3 sections (on > feeling, consciousness and dhammas) do not provide specific activities > to be followed and are not suitable for lay-folk. First, your choice of the word 'suitable' is a hot button word, with negative connotations, and it isn't a word I would choose. All...let me repeat: All...of the Satipatthana Sutta is more difficult for lay folk to follow and, to my knowledge, the Buddha didn't teach it to lay folk. However, lay folk can benefit from the teaching by understanding the process and emulating it to the small degree possible in the worldly life. Additionally, learning the process can condition greater success in future lives if one becomes a monastic. Second, I don't believe the 'specific activities' listed in one section is more appropriate for lay folk than the general descriptions listed in the other sections. Those activities, even though they are specific and identifiable, are not easy to do while living the life of a householder. This is what I believe Jon and I think common sense and the suttas back me up on this point. I know that this sounds discouraging, because householders want to have peace and happiness in their lives just as much as monks/nuns; but this peace and happiness are dependent on one very important factor: renunciation. Householders, if they wish to achieve as much as monastics, must be willing to renounce a great many things and constantly guard the sense doors. Jon, neither of us are doing this to a significant amount so we can't expect great results. Those are the cold, hard facts. However, it seems to me that you, Jon, are advocating the possibility of living a hedonistic and sensual lifestyle and still truly follow the teachings of the Buddha. As I said before, that is just Mara influencing your thinking- making it cloudy and corrupted. > > This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being > conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly > no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and > dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? > > Jon > > You said: > James: The Satipatthana Sutta > lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 > parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they > don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that > the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > > To which I replied: > I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the > body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, > there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, > consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? > > To which you then replied: > James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a > bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I > aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand > aspirations! ;-) Jon, no where in this exchange do I say that the four sections are different or that one section is meant for lay folk while the other three are not. I just directly answered your second question, not knowing that you were tring to lead somewhere (silly me!). The problem here is that you ask too many leading questions (as I have pointed out before). You want me to answer questions in a way which supports your point of view so you ask questions leading in that direction. This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a Buddhist discussion group. Metta, James 47008 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Hi Jon and Dan, Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 26 June, 2005 14:18 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] Hi Dan Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? Jon Dan D. wrote: >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare >cases, contented disinterest.) <....> 47009 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:42am Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness & A question to Htoo lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Larry, Htoo and all > > Thanks for you information you gave me. The real topic of course is > not the information as such but: what to do with it. Although I think > never to get in the immaterial jhanas, because I do insight- > meditation as is taught me, I think it's good and possible to > contemplate about 'nothingness'. And about the resemblance and the > difference between this 'nothingness' and the 'emptiness' in Mahayana. > One final remark to check if I do understand it well: > 'Akincannayatana' is a citta, so is a dhamma, which only can be > experienced after > a long precess of meditation. > 'Nattibhava' or 'natthibhava-pannatti' is a concept, so not a dhamma > itself, it's a object of absorption; and - my intention - it can be a > object of contemplation, that is: without being in deep absorption. > > Metta > > Joop Hi Joop, I think the difference is akincannaayatana is the experience of absense and nattibhava-pannatti is thoughts about absense. Both can be experienced in an ordinary way outside of jhana as in the example of a meeting hall full of an assembly of monks and then the experience of the same hall when they are gone. As 'absence' this is the same as emptiness, the difference being what is absent. In the Base of Nothingness (akincannaayatana) the consciousness of the previous jhana(Base of Boundless Consciousness) is absent. In the emptiness of the Heart Sutra "rupa is emptiness" means anything solid or graspable is absent from rupa. Notice the mantra "gate, gate, paragate,parasamgate, bodhi, svaha" (gone, gone, completely gone, completely absolutely gone, awake, sobeit). This shouldn't be construed as meaning that rupa becomes empty. Emptiness is its nature. We could say this mantra is nattibhava-pannatti with the difference that it leads to insight rather than absorption. As insight, the emptiness of the assembly hall is the ungraspable nature of the assembly hall rather than its lack of people. Larry 47010 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:55am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, James {Jon and Sarah} - James : I know that this sounds discouraging, because householders want to have peace and happiness in their lives just as much as monks/nuns; but this peace and happiness are dependent on one very important factor: renunciation.Householders, if they wish to achieve as much as monastics, must be willing to renounce a great many things and constantly guard the sense doors. Jon, neither of us are doing this to a significant amount so we can't expect great results. Tep: These are very astute observations, James. You hit many nails right on their heads. Several questions relating to "present-moment" satipatthana, holy-life/seclusion, samatha-vipassana bhavana and indriya-samvara sila can be answered by your above remarks. James (talking to Jon): The problem here is that you ask too many leading questions (as I have pointed out before). You want me to answer questions in a way which supports your point of view so you ask questions leading in that direction. This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a Buddhist discussion group. Tep: Asking leading questions is a trick of political candidates who aim at leading 'the people' to go to the polls to vote for them. But Jon is not interested in being a leader, as he tells me in another post today. But if he changed his mind to become a politician one day, I'd like to suggest that he adopted a cute nickname to be used during his political campaign: Jon "Bush" Abbott. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: (snipped) This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to > defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current > incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a > Buddhist discussion group. > > Metta, > James 47011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness, conceit. nilovg Hi Larry and Colette, you made me laugh, Larry. I was very busy with research on conceit today (in anticipation on your post) and even now I have conceit about this!!! Also when there is no competition or comparing there can be conceit. We find ourselves so valuable, a real treasure. Conceit can take any object, even jhana. But, as we know, the lokuttara dhammas are not objects of clinging and thus also they are not objects of clinging with conceit. Nina. op 26-06-2005 07:45 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Jhana could be construed as a competition, an attempt to > become the most tranquil because the jhana practitioner never seems to > be satisfied. In order for there to be competition there has to be > conceit, a comparing oneself to others. Conceit isn't listed as one of > the hindrances to jhana so I would suppose it could be present. Maybe > Nina could say something about this. 47012 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:27am Subject: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - Congratulations for your so-far most direct answers(no beating around the bush) to my questions. I think we can say that our discussion has come to a conclusion. Jon's Points that Tep has Agreed with ------------------------------------------------------- -- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". -- "But the central message remained the same, namely, insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhammas". --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". -- "... in teaching what 'dhammas' are -- they are presented (classified) in different ways, as khandhas, as ayatanas, as elements, as in the fourfold classification of the arousings of mindfulness, etc." -- "I think you would agree that the contemplations on vedana, citta and dhammas as given in the other 3 sections of the Satipatthana Sutta are posture/activity independent. Yet obviously they can occur only at a time of either walking, standing, sitting or lying (as in the section on modes of deportment)." Tep's Final remark: Is our successful conclusion this time due to the fact that you've dropped the 'leadership attitude', or is it because you have no 'leading points' or branches in your answers, or because I've become less argumentative? Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > > > I am grateful for the trouble you take to continue the discussion. > > Jon 47013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] nilovg Hi Howard, I am doing a little research in view of Tep's thread. I shall quote and we can see that it is not merely preparatory practice. It points to the aim. There is more than seeing or paying attention. Sati sampajañña is necessary. Mindfulness and understanding of the reality that appears. That is the way to see it as no being, no person, no self. op 26-06-2005 16:07 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Isn't it straightforwardly implied here that the practice is paying > attention, to see exactly what is happening? Moreover, isn't the prior > practice on > the body "to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness" > preparatory practice? ----- Text: Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'" Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati paccupatthita hoti]. Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose. This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose. What is the purpose for which it is established? Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance." That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning. Subcommentary: ------ Nina: read for remembrance: sati. Patissati-mattaya (matta is: merely). Nina. 47014 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Vism.XIV,168 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 168. (24) With the third [unprofitable consciousness] (24) there should be understood to be associated those given for the first (22), excepting wrong view (xli). But here the difference is that there is inconstant [occurrence] of (xliv) pride (conceit). That has the characteristic of hautiness. Its function is arrogance. It is manifested as vaingloriousness. Its proximate cause is greed dissociated from views. It should be regarded as like madness. (25) With the fourth (25) should be understood to be associated those given for the second (23), excepting wrong view (xli). And here pride (xiv) is among the inconstant too. 47015 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness, conceit. philofillet Hi Larry, Colette, Nina and all I'm pretty sure I've read a sutta that teaches a kind of beneficial aspect of comparing oneself's jhana (or some other attainment?) to others. I think it was in AN. Does anyone know this sutta? I have only a vague memory of it. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Colette, > you made me laugh, Larry. I was very busy with research on conceit today (in > anticipation on your post) and even now I have conceit about this!!! > Also when there is no competition or comparing there can be conceit. We find > ourselves so valuable, a real treasure. Conceit can take any object, even > jhana. But, as we know, the lokuttara dhammas are not objects of clinging > and thus also they are not objects of clinging with conceit. > Nina. > > op 26-06-2005 07:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Jhana could be construed as a competition, an attempt to > > become the most tranquil because the jhana practitioner never seems to > > be satisfied. In order for there to be competition there has to be > > conceit, a comparing oneself to others. Conceit isn't listed as one of > > the hindrances to jhana so I would suppose it could be present. Maybe > > Nina could say something about this. 47016 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - There was a subtle difference between my understanding of the "body", Note 2, and yours, based on your text quote: > Tep's Notes: > > 1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, > equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath > more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle > than before}, 3x3 = 9. > 2) The object of breathing mindfulness is the "body" (in-breaths, out- > breaths, and the sign) in the sense that once mindfulness is > established, it stays at the object. ------ N: Note to the text: ------- Tep: So it seems that you are subtly saying that the 'sign' is not a part of the 'body', while I am saying that it is. Well, let me show another text information that says the 'sign' is also called body. Looking further to the second sentence, counting from the one you are quoting above, you'll see : 'The contemplation is knowledge': the meaning is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge.[endquote] The term "sign body" implies that sign, in-breaths, and out-breaths are the three things that together are "the body" where mindfulness is to be established. Also, I recall from #169 the following: "Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing not these three ideas (dhamma) Does not obtain development." Therefore, I wrote the 2nd note above accordingly. Please let me know if I jumped to a wrong conclusion ! Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, (snipped) > ------- > Tep: 3) In the Thai version "The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness . The contemplation is knowledge." is the same as "Sati becomes anupassana-nana." > ------- > Note to text (from Co): The contemplation is knowledge: the meanings is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. .. > Nina. 47017 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/26/05 2:46:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I am doing a little research in view of Tep's thread. I shall quote and we can see that it is not merely preparatory practice. It points to the aim. There is more than seeing or paying attention. Sati sampajañña is necessary. Mindfulness and understanding of the reality that appears. That is the way to see it as no being, no person, no self. ========================== Thank you very much for this, Nina. It happens that I didn't make myself clear on this point. I didn't mean to imply that kayanupassana practice is merely preparatory - far from it. In fact, there are suttas that suggest that such practice can take one "all the way"! I was writing in the context of the conversation between Jon, James, and Tep. My point was that even with regard to feelings etc activities *are* given for mindfulness of them, these being attention and also the cultivation carried out during mindfulness of the body. In the sense that prior cultivation of mindfulness of the body conditions mindfulness of feelings it is preparatory. I meant it only in that sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47018 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 dacostacharles Hi all, Just jumping in with out much clue as to what was already said. Clinging is not letting go. It does not matter, it could be a belief, an apple, a feeling, ... This does however imply that you are already holding on to what ever it is. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 27 May, 2005 11:00 Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 Hi Phil and Larry, the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For instance, if one does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. See also the Vis. and tiika today. Nina. op 27-05-2005 03:00 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > In any case, I would say that you are going too far by saying that > clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insiduous, so > prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting > away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I > misunderstand what "views" means. <....> 47019 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (431) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Kaama akusala kamma and their results have been explained in the previous post. 2. kaama kusala kamma There are 8 kaama kusala kamma and they are cetana that have arisen when 8 mahaakusala cittas arose in the past. What are the results of these 8 kaama kusala kamma. There are 2 folds. One is the effect at initiation of a life or the effect at patisandhi or rebirth. a) kaama kusala kamma give rise to 9 kaama-patisandhi cittas. 1. kaama-sugati ahetuka patisandi citta (kusalavipaka santirana citta) 2. kaama-sugati sahetuka patisandhi citta( 8 mahaavipaaka cittas) The first citta is patisandhi citta of jaccandii or human with mental retardation, congenital blind or deaf etc and it is also patisandhi citta of some lower devas. 8 mahaavipaaka cittas can give rise to birth at human realms and 6 deva realms. b) kaama kusala kamma give rise to their effect during the course of life as 1. 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas 1. cakkhu vinnaana citta (eye-consciousness) 2. sota vinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) 3. ghaana vinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) 4. jivhaa vinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) 5. kaaya vinnaana citta (body-consciousness) 6. receiving consciousness 7. joyful investigating consciousness 8. indifferent investigating consciousness All these are the results of kusala kamma and they are vipaakas. 2. 8 sahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas These 8 cittas are 8 mahaavipaaka cittas. They can serve as bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness, cuti citta or life- ending consciousness, and can also serve as tadaarammana cittas or retaining consciousness after impulsive consciousness or javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47020 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:06pm Subject: A short message from Htoo htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, I will be away for a month. Last month, I said I would be away for 2 months. For finishing touches on Patthana Dhamma I came back in the middle of my busy schedules. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47021 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - 199. / Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - My slow-but-sure-and-gladdened typing continues to paragraphs #197- 199 for today. 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate that body[the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it as impermanent (aniccanupassana), not as permanent; as painful(dukkhanupassana), not as pleasant; as not self(anattanupassana), not as self; he becomes dispassionate(nibbidaanupassana), does not delight; he causes greed to fade away(viraaganupassana), does not inflame it; he causes cessation(nirodhanupassana), not arising; he relinquishes (patinissagganupassana), does not grasp. When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of permanence(niccasannaa), when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of pleasure (sukhasannaa); when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self(attaasannaa), when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight(nandi), when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising (uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons grasping(aadaana). Thus he contemplates the body. ['Contemplation of the body as a body' the body being of many sorts, it is contemplationof that body. Or else it is contemplation of a (the) body, not of any other idea (dhamma), in the body that is meant; not the contemplation of permanence, pleasure, self, and beauty in a body that is impermanent, painful, not self, and ugly(foul), but contemplation of that body as impermanent, painful, not self, and ugly. Or else it is contemplation of simply that mere body itself rather than contemplation in it of any body assumed to be 'I' or 'mine' or 'woman' or 'man', is what is meant' (PsA 352 S) See also MA i 241f.] 198. 'Development': there are four kinds of development(bhaavaana): development in the sense of non-excess(anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) produced therein, development in the sense of single function(eka rasa) of the faculties(indriya), development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate energy(tadupaga viriya), and development in the sense of repetition(aasevana). [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 199. When he undestands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths, his feelings (vedana) are recognized as they arise(), recognized as they appear (are established), recognize as they subside(); his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear(are established), recognize as they subside; his applied-thoughts(vitakka) are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear(are established), recognize as they subside; Tep's questions: ----------------------- In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising(uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons grasping(aadaana). When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Let's have a preview of the remaining presentation of the Breathing > Treatise (29 more pages to go). > > Each of the 16 grounds in the Anapanasati is analysed with respect to > the foundation of mindfulness, how to contemplate (anupassati) the > breaths, the arising of vedana, sanna, etc., and how the faculties > (indriya) are combined. > > The first ground of Tetrad #1 starts in paragraph #194 and the 16th > ground (of Tetrad #4) ends in paragraph #597. After that we'll see > Section v through Section x, covering paragraphs # 598 to the last > paragraph # 612 -- the end of the Breathing Treatise. > > Following the suggestions of Nina, Sarah and Larry, I am going to > present shorter messages and hence it will take longer to finish the > series. > > Now let me back up to the beginning of the first ground (i) of Tetrad # 1 > in paragraph 194: > 47022 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi all, There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say they do not entertain thoughts of beings. Some of the higher powers available to those with mastery of the mind include: seeing the rebirths and planes of existence of "others" reading the thoughts of "others" I'm wandering what it could mean to someone who doesn't entertain the thought of beings that proficiency in the nanas and jhanas leads to knowlede of mental states and abodes of "others"? Kind Regards Herman 47023 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:59pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jon, > The problem here is that you ask too many leading questions (as I have > pointed out before). You want me to answer questions in a way which > supports your point of view so you ask questions leading in that > direction. This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to > defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current > incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a > Buddhist discussion group. Hi James and Tep Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. Regarding "leading questions", these are of 2 types in a court of law, either (a) questions that suggest the desired answer; or (b) questions that assume the existence of disputed facts. Whilst Jon stands accused of asking questions that suggest an answer, I feel his questions admirably uncover the "disputed facts" that underlie the propositions being put forward. In that sense, they are anything but leading questions. They are very helpful in getting people to spell out clearly what is being proposed. We need more of that and not less! Best wishes Andrew T 47024 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > > ------------------------------ > KH: > > It hints at a them-and-us attitude that would suggest farmers > and pest exterminators > > > (for example) can't be as good as other people. > .... > > S: > Isn't this like the meat-eating and leather belts arguments? > -------------------------------- > > Is it the same thing? My train of thought (when it was not being > sidetracked) was basically that, in conventional matters, we don't > know what is the best thing to do. The owner of an old, sick cat > doesn't know how much time and money he should spend to keep it > alive. I don't think an understanding of kusala and akusala dhammas > will solve that problem for him. A slaughterman in an abattoir > doesn't know whether to put down his knife and walk off the job. Or > maybe that's different. I don't even know that! :-) > > If the slaughterman suddenly quits his job (with the intention of > keeping the first precept) isn't he thinking, "mine, me, my self?" Hi everyone At the risk of side-tracking poor old Ken H again (-:, it seems to me that thinking in the above terms is a proliferated "standing still" that conditions sinking and not crossing the stream. Conditions will govern what happens, including the volitional aspects. Why not just leave it at that? BTW Millie the cat is behind me now, still not walking but lively enough to give me a good scratch as I gave her her pre-breakfast medicine. I'm not mentally agonising about what to do with her. We just carry on moment by moment ... Best wishes Andrew T 47025 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: Abhinnas & Others philofillet Hi Herman, and all > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say > they do not entertain thoughts of beings. Ph: Sorry to interrupt the line of your question, but a couple of things should be pointed out...again. :) I don't think anyone here would claim to have that kind of insight Not only do we entertain the thought of beings, we love beings, care for them, become irritated by them, worry about them, lust after them, feel aversion to them. Of course. There may or may not be arahants in this world, but they sure aren't kicking around the internet! As I said the other day, we most definitely see things and live in the world with very conventional minds, and nobody is claiming otherwise. At the same time, we can read about and discuss the Buddha's incomparable wisdom, which allowed him to see a more profound truth. So we refer to the teeaching, and discuss it. We don't claim to have attained a direct experience of it. So of course we are bound to beings. We are worldlings. More importantly, you should realize that it is very basic Dhamma, mainstream Dhamma to understand at least intellectually that the five aggregates do not form a being in ultimate terms. See Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial note to SN 22:22: "The puggalavada or personalist schools of Buddhism appealed to this passage as proof for the existence of the person (puggala) as a real entity..this tenet was flatly rejected by the other Buddhist schools, who saw in it a camouflaged verson of the atman, the self of the non-Buddhist systems. The *mainstream* Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pannati) derivative upon (upadaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right." Ok, carry on! ;) Metta, Phil 47026 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood philofillet Hi all I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. I thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in the modern, noisy, dirty world. "Suppose a man in need of fire, looking for fire, wandering in search of fire, would take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood. If he were to take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results. "In the same way, any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results." Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. Metta, Phil 47027 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A short message from Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 6/26/05 7:07:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear Dhamma Friends, I will be away for a month. Last month, I said I would be away for 2 months. For finishing touches on Patthana Dhamma I came back in the middle of my busy schedules. With Metta, Htoo Naing ============================ Whatever you will be doing, be well and be happy. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47028 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/26/05 7:45:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi all, There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say they do not entertain thoughts of beings. Some of the higher powers available to those with mastery of the mind include: seeing the rebirths and planes of existence of "others" reading the thoughts of "others" I'm wandering what it could mean to someone who doesn't entertain the thought of beings that proficiency in the nanas and jhanas leads to knowlede of mental states and abodes of "others"? Kind Regards Herman ============================= To speak of beings, their rebirths, and their thoughts is to speak truthfully but figuratively. It would take aeons to unpack that figurative speech and replace it with literal speech. Putting it another way, think about the nature and "existence" of rainbows. The matter is analogous I think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47029 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/26/05 8:38:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: may or may not be arahants in this world, but they sure aren't kicking around the internet! ========================== LOL! One of the most insightful statements I've read in a long time!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47030 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your comments. I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying. But the question remains, if not for people on dsg, then for people described in the sutta, such as the Buddha and many others possesed of the abhinnas. You seem to be saying that BB is in fact saying that the Buddha and others who perfected the nanas and jhanas, and so developed the ability to know things about "others", developed a rare conceptual skill ? I am glad you know what I should realise :-) Perhaps you can help me understand the obvious. I wander what the citta was when the Buddha knew something about the mind of an "other"? What does the Abhidhamma say about it? Sorry to be so tiresome :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Herman, and all > > > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > > > > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who > say > > they do not entertain thoughts of beings. > > > Ph: Sorry to interrupt the line of your question, but a couple of > things should be pointed out...again. :) > > I don't think anyone here would claim to have that kind of > insight > Not only do we entertain the thought of beings, we love beings, care > for them, become irritated by them, worry about them, lust after > them, > feel aversion to them. Of course. There may or may not be arahants > in > this world, but they sure aren't kicking around the internet! As I > said > the other day, we most definitely see things and live in the world > with > very conventional minds, and nobody is claiming otherwise. At the > same > time, we can read about and discuss the Buddha's incomparable > wisdom, > which allowed him to see a more profound truth. So we refer to the > teeaching, and discuss it. We don't claim to have attained a direct > experience of it. So of course we are bound to beings. We are > worldlings. > > More importantly, you should realize that it is very basic Dhamma, > mainstream Dhamma to understand at least intellectually that the > five aggregates do not form > a being in ultimate terms. See Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial note to > SN > 22:22: "The puggalavada or personalist schools of Buddhism appealed > to > this passage as proof for the existence of the person (puggala) as a > real entity..this tenet was flatly rejected by the other Buddhist > schools, who saw in it a camouflaged verson of the atman, the self > of > the non-Buddhist systems. The *mainstream* Buddhist schools held > that > the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pannati) > derivative upon (upadaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial > reality in its own right." > > Ok, carry on! ;) > > Metta, > Phil 47031 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:03pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood rjkjp1 Dear Phil, I am right that you are saying that one who is not a monk cannot develop satipatthana and that they posses wrong view because of being bombarded by sense objects? BTW Chanda is not lobha. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: . I > thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re > satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for > people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in > the modern, noisy, dirty world. > > " If he were to take a fire stick and rub it into a > wet, sappy piece of wood even when having made a wish [for > results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and > having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no > wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? > Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results. > > "In the same way, any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong > view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, > wrong effort, 47032 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:05pm Subject: suhada-mitta foamflowers Dear Colette, Suhada-mitta means 'friend of the heart,' I do remember who you are! With Metta, Lisa 47033 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:14pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood philofillet Hi Rob > Dear Phil, > I am right that you are saying that one who is not a monk cannot > develop satipatthana and that they posses wrong view because of > being bombarded by sense objects? I was talking about the natural tendency for beginners to want to have satipatthana as soon as they hear about it. As you know, a lot of patience is required. I was really impressed when I met you and you said that it made no difference to you whether you were in a rural district or in Tokyo - I think it's safe to say you've developed a foundation of right understanding over the years. Not so for me. At the same time, by letting go intellectually of desire for results re satipatthana, I might leave myself open for results - who knows? I will keep listening and reflecting... > BTW Chanda is not lobha. No, but chanda is desire, in one meaning of the word. I found that sutta in the index under "desire" BTW, are you thinking of coming up to Tokyo any day soon? I'd love to meet you again. Metta, Phil 47034 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - 199. / Questions lbidd2 Tep: "When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping?" Hi Tep, My guess is that all seven contemplations are mundane. Abandonment is temporary but accumulated. Soma Thera translates "he causes cessation(nirodhanupassana), not arising" as "with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination". I interpret this as cultivating intention or desire (chandha) to stop, do less, proliferate less, not as causing nibbana. BPS has a manual called "The Seven Contemplations of Insight" by ~Naa.naaraama, but I don't have it. Larry 47035 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:06pm Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > I will be away for a month. Last month, I said I would be away for 2 > months. For finishing touches on Patthana Dhamma I came back in the > middle of my busy schedules. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo, I won't miss your posts so much now I have the lovely Dhamma site you put up. Thank you for the Good Dhamma Works and I am working away at my Dhamma studies. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.95 Phena Sutta Foam Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. Beginning with the body as taught by the One with profound discernment: when abandoned by three things — life, warmth, & consciousness — form is rejected, cast aside. When bereft of these it lies thrown away, senseless, a meal for others. That's the way it goes: it's a magic trick, an idiot's babbling. It's said to be a murderer No substance here is found. Thus a monk, ersistence aroused, should view the aggregates by day & by night, mindful, alert; should discard all fetters; should make himself his own refuge; should live as if his head were on fire — in hopes of the state with no falling away. With Metta, Lisa 47036 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Evan_Stamato... Hi Phil, When I read this sutta, the way I interpreted it was that no matter what sort of wish you hve for attainments, it is not what gives you the attainments. The only thing that will lead to attainments is the eightfold path, namely right view, etc. So in this instance, the soggy piece of wood is the non-path ie wrong view, etc. So the conclusion as I see it is if you want to dry out the wood, don't worry about wishing for any attainments, just follow the eightfold path to perfection and the attainments will follow. Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Sent: Monday, 27 June 2005 11:06 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Hi all I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. I thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in the modern, noisy, dirty world. "Suppose a man in need of fire, looking for fire, wandering in search of fire, would take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood. If he were to take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results. "In the same way, any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results." Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. Metta, Phil 47037 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood/ use a furnace! buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil {and other DSG members} - Phil (#47026) : Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. Phil (#47033) : At the same time, by letting go intellectually of desire for results re satipatthana, I might leave myself open for results - who knows? I will keep listening and reflecting... Tep: You can accelerate the wood drying process by means of a furnace without having to burn your mind with lobha or delude it with a wrong view (the lurking 'self ' demon that is ready to jump at you?). Isn't that a better solution? With karuna, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi all > > I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta > I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. I > thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re > satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for > people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in > the modern, noisy, dirty world. > (snipped) > > Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know > when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna > (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. > > Metta, > Phil 47038 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma foamflowers Hi Jon, I found some interesting words in Colette's post as well as yours so I chased some of them down. Colette: > > "In the Suttas we often come across such phrases as 'ko hetu, ko > >paccayo' - 'what cause, what reason'. In the Abhidhamma both hetu > >and paccaya are differentiated and are used in specific senses. The > >term hetu is applied to the six roots explained above. > >Paccaya is an aiding condition (upakaraka dhamma). > > Like the root of a tree is hetu. Paccaya > >is like water, manure, etc." Jon asked Colette: I'm interested in the term 'upakaraka dhamma', since the subject of whether conditions are or are not 'dhammas' has come up a few times. Does the source text have anything more to say about it? LisaH: Jon, I found the source text I think, but I didn't find any mention of 'not dhamma.' Also I did a bit more exploring because I don't know these words well and this is what I found. Not to take away from Colette finding this, I would like to discuss what is and is not dhammas. http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/abhisgho/abhis03.htm The four Great Essentials (Mahabhuta), o Bhikkhus, are the causes (hetu), the conditions (paccaya) for the manifestation of Form-Group (rupakkhandha)." Here hetu is used in the sense of causal relation (paccaya-hetu). There is a subtle distinction between hetu and paccaya. The former signifies root (mula); the latter, an aiding factor (upakaraka dhamma). Hetu is compared to the roots of a tree, and paccaya to manure, water and soil that aid its growth. This distinction should be clearly understood. It should also be noted that at times both hetu and paccaya are used as synonymous terms. iii) uttama-hetu, chief cause or condition. A desirable object acts as the chief (uttama) cause in producing a good result and an undesirable one in producing a bad result. Here it means the chief cause. iv) sadharana-hetu, the common cause or condition. Ignorance is the cause (hetu), condition (paccaya) of volitional activities (sankhara). Here hetu is used as the general cause. Just as the essence of both earth and water is the common cause of both sweetness and bitterness, even so ignorance is the common cause of volitional activities. Though hetu assumes different shades of meaning in the Text, in this particular instance it is used in the specific sense of root. 10. All the ahetuka cittas are devoid of all roots. Hence they are neither moral nor immoral. They are regarded as unmoral. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL02.html 'upakaraka,' which means that which assists or renders help (in the arising of paccayuppannadhamma.) Here the present visible object is the arammana-paccaya, and is causally related to the two classes, good and bad, of consciousness of sight. Similarly, the present audible object is causally related to the two classes of consciousness of sound; the present odorous obect, to the two classes of consciousness of smell; the present sapid object, to the two classes of consciousness of taste; the present three classes of tangible object, to the two classes of consciousness of touch; and the present five objects of sense, to the three classes of consciousness known as the triple element of apprehension[2]. All these five objects of sense, present, past or future, and all objects of thought, present, past, future or outside time, are arammana-paccaya and are causally related, severally, to the seventy-six classes of consciousness known as mind-cognitions (or elements of comprehension). In what sense is 'arammana' to be understood, and in what sense 'paccaya'? Arammana is to be understood in the sense of 'alambitabba', which means that which is held or hung upon, so to speak, by mind and mental elements. Paccaya is to be understood in the sense of 'upakaraka,' which means that which assists or renders help (in the arising of paccayuppannadhamma .) Concerning the word 'alambitabba', the function of the 'alambana' of minds and their mental factors is to take hold of or to attach to the object. For instance, there is in this physical world a kind of metal which receives its name of 'ayokantaka' (literally, iron-desire), lodestone, on account of its apparent desire for iron. When it gets near a lump of iron, it shakes itself as though desiring it. Moreover, it moves itself forward and attaches itsel f firmly to the iron. In other cases, it attracts the iron, and so the iron shakes itself, approaches the lodestone, and attaches itself firmly to it. Here we see the power of the lodestone, which may be taken as a striking representation of the 'alambana' of mind and the mental factors. Upa (p. 138 ) -- [Vedic upa; Av. upa on, up; Gr. u(po/ under, u(pe/r over; Lat. sub fr. *(e)ks--upo; Goth. uf under & on; Ohg. uf = Ags. up = E. up; Oir. founder. See also upari] prefix denoting nearness or close touch (cp. similarly a), usually with the idea of approach from below or rest on top, on, upon, up, by Karaka (p. 210 ) (usually --°) the doer (of): Vin II. 221 (capu--capu°); sasana° he who does according to (my) advice Sn 445; Bdhd 85 sq.; -- f. karika : veyyavacca° a servant PvA 65 (text reads °ta); as n. the performance of (--°), service: dukkara-- karika the performance of evil deeds S I. 103; Th 2, 413 (=ThA 267).--agga--karika first test, sample Vin III. 80 dhammakaraka there, and at II. 118, 177. This means "regulation waterpot" as it was provided with a strainer (parissavana) to prevent injury to living things. See also Miln 68; Pv III. 224 ; PvA 185. -- 2. hail (also karaka) J IV. 167; Miln 308; Mhvs XII. 9. nn --vassa a shower of hail, hail--storm J IV. 167; Miln 308; DhA I. 360. With Metta, Lisa 47039 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:34pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Hi Jon, You ask a great question -- one that I think is central to the problem. I think you are right in your implication that a doctrine of anatta without dhammas is not conducive to any development of insight -- it would more resemble a dead fatalism. The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few months. Metta, Dan > Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of > dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could > the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any > benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? > > Jon > > Dan D. wrote: > > >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words > >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of > >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of > >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, > >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of > >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal > >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion > >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare > >cases, contented disinterest.) > > > >Metta, > > > >Dan > > > >Jon: "..the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that > >follower of that doctrine could become arahants..." > > > > 47040 From: "Eznir" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 eznir2003 Dear Sukinder Sukinder: Yes, why this and not another. We can't choose to have awareness, less so on a particular dhamma. We certainly are choosing one thing or another all the time, whether we like to sleep, sit, stand or walk, even when we are engaged in some activity or other. If your answer is 'No we can't choose', then I request you to hold your breath for *ever*! You will find yourself 'choosing' to breath before long! I'm sure you'd agree with me on the fact that we are choosing one thing or another all the time. All the time, we are engaged in some duty of our choosing. This duty may be looking after our children, cooking at home or even simply doing nothing! Whatever the activity that we are engaged in we are mindful of it. If not we cannot perform that activity properly. If we are taking a stroll in a busy street, we are mindful of it. If not we might meet with an accident, although we may be thinking of something else while walking! The degree of this mindfulness is a different matter. If we take a stroll with a romantic notion in mind, then we would be thinking likewise during the walk. If we take a walk as an exercise after dinner, then that would be its outcome. If we take a walk with the intention of doing walking meditation then that too would be its end result. In each of these cases we have to choose, the intended purpose of our walk. Awareness just doesn't simply drop in from the sky, one has got to cultivate it. In this way we can choose to be mindful so that awareness, even on a particular dhamma, would develop. ========================================= Sukinder: My point however was to show the danger of lobha and moha in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which can then lead us astray, away from the middle path. Exactly! All the more reason why we should choose to cultivate mindfulness and awareness. It is only then that with directed thought and sustained thought we nurture the conditions for panna to arise. When ever the hindrances that you mentioned above arises one must be aware that they have arisen. Only then does panna know that it is a mind with hindrances and how it arose. But why should we know how hindrances arise? So that panna will know the cause & conditions for its arising. ========================================= Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do arise all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be reminded about the moment or we will not. It is nesessary. Dhammas do arise all the time and to be reminded about the moment or not, does depend on the inclination of our mind. Our minds are never in a blank state, all the time it is involved in some thinking. ========================================= Sukinder: If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows. But this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash! They too are subjected to the "many, many conditions" you mentioned above. These many many conditons are the inclination of the mind that conditons alobha and vijja to arise! ========================================= Sukinder: But their opposites don't and we could do well with reminders about their being almost perpetually present. See how you contradict yourself here; you say, "Not necessary to say, "keep in mind"" that dhammas do arise all the time. But when it comes to lobha and avijja you say, "we could do well with reminders about their being almost perpetually present" - that is to *keep in mind*. They too are dhammas that arise all the time? ========================================= Old Eznir: The point in all this is that it is better to incline ones mind in a positive sense rather than the negative, even in matters of Dhamma. Sukinder: Here I can't agree. The development of wisdom takes place only insofar as wisdom *does* arise. It is not a matter of developing an attitude regardless of this, does it? The gradual elimination of suffering in any form comes from "knowing", and not from choosing to pay attention to a particular idea. The present moment is proped up by many many conditions or thought processes; just like the previous 'present' moment; and so will the subsequent 'present' moment. This train of 'present' moments will give rise to wisdom that accumulates in succession only if the thought processes that conditoned the intial 'present' moment to this train, is such, that it strengthens itself with every passing 'present' moment and that every passing 'present' moment is consistent and not diversified. We choose or intend every moment(I/m sure you'd agree!). If we choose the breath to be this 'present' moment - in the absence of hindrances or diversified mind - wisdom is bound to accumulate with every passing moment! But only if we choose with every moment to be with the breath! (ie every present moment must be consistent) ========================================= Old Eznir: > The degree to which the present moment is alobha and vijja and not lobha and avijja and therefore less suffering, depends on the inclination of ones mind. As I outlined before, the possibility of either sense occuring in a given moment is possible depending on the weightage given to each sense. It is this sense that is elevated to the status of equanimity when the outcome of a given moment swings to neither, ie ones mind is inclined neither this way or that. Sukinder: So with equanimity, the kind that is worth seeking, comes from "knowing". And this wisdom that `knows', doesn't mind what the present citta is, kusala or akusala. So I think you are not really talking about panna here. This wisdom that knows, do mind what the present citta is! This is mindfulness and awareness. That's how this wisdom knows how things arise, their cause & condition, and how they will not arise again. ========================================= Sukinder: And that would be repeated reminders about Dhamma and the fact that it is all about understanding the present moment. ;-) As I said before, this present moment doesn't just stand by itself, but is proped up by many many conditions. And your 'understanding the present moment' depends on these conditions that this 'present moment' is proped up with. Every moment is not an independent state but is dependent on various factors. This is clearly apparent if one reflects on how one gets these bright ideas! The kind that got Archimedes running naked on the street shouting 'Eureka! Eureka! or Sir Isaac Newton when he saw the apple falling! When ever one has been bothered with a problem for some time; one seem to get the right solution on the spur of the moment, just like that! This is due to reflective thinking on the problem. And so when understanding the dhammas that arise in the present moment. But this is due to *reflexive* thinking. In fact there is no thinking as such but one just 'knows'. Much like intuition, This is wisdom. But this wisdom didn't just arise, but was proped up by an edifice of thought that had pre-occupied the mind during the many many moments just prior to this present moment when wisdom arose! ========================================= Sukinder: Yes, I contend this. The clear understanding of particular characteristics of dhammas, are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus, and clearly distinguishing between nama and rupa. "The clear understanding of particular characteristic of dhammas that are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus" is direct seeing. Direct seeing is by necessity beyond thinking and hence clearly distinguishes between nama & rupa. Understanding is with nama & rupa, whereas direct seeing is nama & rupa. ========================================= Sukinder: Our understanding of feelings, perception, intention and so on is hazy and conceptual, which is far from what they are in the ultimate sense. Our 'understanding' of things in an ultimate sense is by necessity conceptual since it involves thinking and hence far from what they are in an ultimate sense. When we understand something and come to say that we know this or that, the consciousness that subsequently arises is with nama & rupa. ========================================= Sukinder: If we attempt to understand them in experience without first having a clear understanding on the intellectual level, then we are only going to have yet another hazy view. But the results of deliberate looking *will* be there, which we will then take for real knowledge. You can have discussions and in the process refine and correct your intellectual understanding, but nothing more. I think one must distinguish the essential difference between what is understanding and what is direct seeing. ========================================= Sukinder: The five precepts are only `ideas' which become real only when there is an opportunity for restraint. If one is not mindful of the 5 precepts these opportunities for restraint are missed, hence the purpose of these 5 precepts! And so with the 8 or 10 precepts, they give a greater opportunity to develop one's mindfulness. Need we say more of the 227 patimokka sila kept by the Sangha! Vinaya is the backbone of the Sangha, which in turn is the Dhamma in practice. Shall continue when time permits! Metta Eznir 47041 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:07pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear CharlesD, I'm glad to hear from you on this thread. I think you are right that to fully discuss conceptions of anatta at the deepest level in two different traditions is beyond any of us. However, considerations at more modest levels is certainly possible, and, I think, of value. I've found that at the most superficial levels, Christian and Buddhist thinking is very similar ("Be good"), at less superficial levels they are very divergent ("Salvation through Christ" vs. "Eightfold path"), and at moderate depth they are similar (lobha/moha/dosa as unwholesome roots; anatta, anicca, dukkha of specific dhammas that arise). But at the deepest levels, I sense that they are once again divergent ("salvation" and "enlightenment" are quite distinct). I can't offer anything of value beyond speculation at the deeper levels, and I don't anticipate *pretending* to discuss those issues in any substantial way. [I can see Jon and Sarah objecting strenuously at this point -- "Dan, you silly! Anatta, anicca, dukkha are deep, DEEP, and not 'moderately' deep!" I agree, but they can be known in part before enlightenment.] This is something I've been thinking about for a few years now, and I am hoping to write more on this subject in the coming months. I need to put it off for awhile yet, but I hope you can chime in again later. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Jon and Dan, > > Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. > > But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > > CharlesD > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, 26 June, 2005 14:18 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: `Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] > > > Hi Dan > > Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of > dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could > the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any > benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? > > Jon > > Dan D. wrote: > > >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words > >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of > >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of > >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, > >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of > >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal > >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion > >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare > >cases, contented disinterest.) > <....> 47042 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:11pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood egberdina Hi Phil, You've had a number of good replies already. Surely there is room for another one. > > Hi all >snip > > Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know > when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna > (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. > Panna could also be arising on a regular basis informing that you are pouring a steady stream of liquid onto your piece of wood. The resolution to accept patience as the only way forward may be nothing more than the smokescreen that hides the unspoken craving for ongoing existence. Who would know? Panna? :-) Kind Regards Herman 47043 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:35pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] There is much ignorance about the processes of cittas which experience objects through the six doors. Do we realize whether there is at this moment seeing, hearing or thinking, or does it seem that these experiences occur all at the same time? In reality only one object can be experienced at a time through the appropriate doorway. When there is hearing only sound is experienced through the ears and when we think of the meaning of the words which are spoken there is not hearing but thinking of concepts. Thinking arises in another process of cittas, it arises in a mind-door process and this is different from the ear-door process. Does it seem that hearing can stay for a while? In reality this is not so, it falls away immediately. But when right understanding has not been developed the arising and falling away of cittas cannot be realized. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47044 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi Howard, > To speak of beings, their rebirths, and their thoughts is to speak > truthfully but figuratively. It would take aeons to unpack that figurative speech > and replace it with literal speech. > Putting it another way, think about the nature and "existence" of > rainbows. The matter is analogous I think. > === I understand what you are saying about truthfully and figuratively, but I am probably not understanding your example of the rainbows, Howard. I understand that I cannot reach or grasp that rainbow, but I can make you aware of it upon seeing it, and so we can enjoy its nature and non-graspable existence together :-) Kind Regards Herman PS When we were kids my father would always say if we came to him complaining of a pain here or there "I don't feel anything". It made us laugh and forget the pain, and taught us a bit about reality :-) 47045 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Robert, ---------------- R: > I'm having some problems following your reasoning on this thread. --------------- I don't think I have been saying anything that hasn't been said before, but I may have been confusing concepts with realities - again. ------------------------ R: > The commentary to the Sammaditthi sutta gives this example http://www.abhidhamma.org/r_view02.htm "It is said that after undertaking the training rules Note, the layman was not a sotapanna. How do you interpret this section? ;-)), ------------------------------------- In a word; 'Descriptive.' :-) As you have always said, there are only dhammas 'rolling on:' reality can be understood or misunderstood, it can't be controlled. Therefore, I don't see that story as telling me what to 'do' (as in, 'which conventional course of action to take'). So, what *should* I do if seized by a giant snake when I have an axe in my free hand? Or; if my house has termites and it is a case of 'Fumigate or get out'? Or; if my sick cat can be saved but only at considerable financial expense? I don't think it is reasonable to ask my fellow Dhamma students those questions and, if I did, I think the answer would be different every time. Ken H 47046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg]The four Applications of Mindfulness nilovg Hi Howard, op 26-06-2005 22:22 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ========================== > Thank you very much for this, Nina. It happens that I didn't make myself > clear on this point. I didn't mean to imply that kayanupassana practice is > merely preparatory - far from it. In fact, there are suttas that suggest that > such practice can take one "all the way"! I was writing in the context of the > conversation between Jon, James, and Tep. My point was that even with regard > to feelings etc activities *are* given for mindfulness of them, these being > attention and also the cultivation carried out during mindfulness of the body. > In > the sense that prior cultivation of mindfulness of the body conditions > mindfulness of feelings it is preparatory. I meant it only in that sense. ------- N: I would like to just add something. When mindfulness of bodily phenomena is cultivated, mental phenomena, nama, have to be included anyway. I think that one cannot understand rupa as rupa, as different from nama, without understanding nama. When I say understanding I mean: sati sampajañña, direct awareness and understanding. When we take the physical and mental together as a whole, we cling to a concept of person. Whereas when paññaa directly understands that what we take for a person are different elements, the holding on to a person one believes to exist can be eliminated. As you say, mindfulness of body can take one "all the way". This is explained in the Co to the satipatthanasutta, 'The Way of Mindfulness' by Ven. Soma. He has to contemplate origination dhammas and dissolution dhammas. The Co. to the Path of Discrimination explains that this has to be realized in two ways: momentary and also by way of D.O. Because of ignorance there is still arising, when ignorance ceases there are no more conditions for arising. I do not see any order in the four satipatthanas, I see them as means to develop right understanding at any moment. They are means of contemplation, so that we are not forgetful. When moving about in daily life, sometimes there is mindfulness of hardness, sometimes of feeling, sometimes of citta. We cannot tell beforehand and we cannot direct sati. This is a good thing, it helps us to see it as a conditioned element. The four applications are a manner of teaching, a way of helping different people with different inclinations, as I see it. Nina. 47047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 nilovg Hi Charles D, Please could you try again, I did not understand your Q. Is there anything I can help with? Nina. op 26-06-2005 16:53 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > Hi all, > > Just jumping in with out much clue as to what was already said. > > Clinging is not letting go. It does not matter, it could be a belief, an > apple, a feeling, ... > > This does however imply that you are already holding on to what ever it is. 47048 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: out of social context (Categories) sarahprocter... Hi Herman and anyone Down Under or tempted to go Down Under, --- Egbert wrote: > > S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short > > sutta I think you'll appreciate: > > > It seems to me that any act of differentation, whereby something > becomes this (khanda) and not that (khanda), is the same act that > keeps nibbana at bay. If the question "what is happening at the > present moment" is not at some point put aside, things will keep going > pretty much the way they have been :-) ... S: Would you kindly elaborate. You may be right, but I'm not following you. .... > from > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html <...> > from > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > > "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], > there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being > no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that > consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed > becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed > becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, > sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation > of this entire mass of suffering & stress." > > Sorry if the quotes are too long :-) .... S: The quotes were fine and these are deep, deep suttas. Please would you spell out your comments in more detail for me to consider. ***** S: I'd like to add a personal note re your note to Phil, #46947 I'm sorry to hear of course that you are still having difficulties but am glad, like Howard, that you're getting medical assistance and I agreed with his kind comments. As Phil said it's middle way stuff (or sth like that). Feelings and other dhammas are just as real when we're happy as when we're sad, when we're tired as when we're energetic, when we're taking medication as when we're not. As I see it, understanding and being aware of dhammas arising, doesn't mean giving up holidays, giving up sensible temporary solutions to problems or focussing on the breath under the tree when the result is misery. I see any of these ideas as being serious wrong views and not middle way understanding at all. Another serious wrong view would be to consider that any disenchantment or dispassion we might feel now towards life has anything to do with liberation rather than straight-out aversion conditioned by our strong attachment to life being a certain way. This is the serious kind of wrong view and if taken to an extreme can lead someone to take their life -- wrong because there is the illusion that it's solving a problem. Herman, I know you have tried for many years to find solace in the dhamma. Thank you for trusting us all here enough to share your difficulties. Let us continue to be your friends so we can try to share the solace we find, the solace in the bitter medicine when we learn about the islands in the oceans of concepts. I'm glad to hear that you consider your wife's and children's welfare so much. As I said recently to my sister-in-law, when we're helping those around us who need our help, there's no thought of 'me' and my problems. Don't you agree? I think that by accepting medical help you're showing kindness and consideration to your family who must care so much for your welfare. Vedana are always arising regardless...don't worry, they'll continue to arise. What is the use of just cultivating more unpleasant feelings in this short life:)?. Please do continue to question anything any of us feel comfy about here:). I know that I speak for Nina and Jon and others too when I say we're always glad when you're around, even if your posts need some sweeteners at times:). And no, I don't agree with you when you say you 'would like it for me, if I didn't exist'-that's just ignorance and dangerous day-dreaming...... Herman, Jon and I are planning to be in Sydney and also Noosa in the first half of August (nothing fixed yet). Would you be able to meet us in one or other place? Perhaps you and your wife might like a weekend in Noosa for a holiday and to meet us and others too ??w'end Aug13th? Metta, Sarah ======= 47049 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > S: "it's important to understand that cittas experience or cognize > objects" > > L: Why? .... S: Because namas (i.e cittas and cetasikas) can never be understood if their characteristic of experiencing objects is not known. For example, take seeing consciousness. It experiences visible object. Right now as it arises, that is it’s nature or characteristic. If there is no visible object to be seen, there is no seeing. The same applies to attachment/desire. It doesn’t arise in a vacuum, but when it arises it clings on to its object. .... > > S: "if the (javana) cittas experience visible object (a paramattha > dhamma),the accompanying ignorance will experience it too, but not > knowing anything about it, because it's 'blind'." > > L: I wouldn't say "blind" because then there wouldn't be an experience. > Instead I would say ignorance is a misinterpretation. .... S:See your extract from Vism #46264 “ ‘Delusion’ has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing.” Etc The misinterpretation is the characteristic of ditthi. Also #46977 'Cetasikas' "Moha conditions ditthi but they are different realities. Moha is ignorant of the true nature of realities and ditthi has wrong view about them". .... > S: "There can't be a citta or cetasika arising without an object." > > L: If a citta arises _as_ an object that citta does not arise with an > object. ... S: That’s a good point. When citta or cetasika is the object, they are experienced, they are not experiencing. But we were talking about cittas with and without ignorance experiencing visible object and taste, weren’t we? .... > You are so busy maybe we should park this discussion. ... S: No let’s not park it. I think we need to hammer out these points. Sorry if I gave the impression anytime of being too busy.... I enjoy being busy. Blame it on Nina and Jon who keep even busier:). .... >I believe this is > your position (corrections welcome): when like likes blue, blue is seen > as permanent. .... S: Hmmm....to me ‘blue’ is a concept. When there’s liking for it, most the time it’s just liking with ignorance. Of course, concepts are not permanent or impermanent. ... >Like likes a seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma. ... S: visible object is the paramattha dhamma. I would never say ‘blue’ is a paramattha dhamma. Visible object has the aspect of colour, however...various colours. .... >My > view is a 'seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma' is a concept. ... S: yes, whenever there is the idea of a permanent p.d, it’s a concept – not the real thing. However, before there is that illusion, there is the experiencing of the p.d with or without ignorance. At such times, even if it’s not known, the p.d is experienced. .... >I think > it is just a difference of perspective. The important point is that > desire and aversion always arise with ignorance and without ignorance > nothing is desirable or hate-able. ... S: AGREED!! Pls let me know any disagreements. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for typing out the long extract and comy on 3rd arupa jhana. I'd be unsure of a couple of comments in Htoo's series and this confirmed the points were correct. (I've always avoided these parts of the Vism but you force-fed me:)). ======= 47050 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:50am Subject: RE: avijja and moha RE: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) sarahprocter... Hi Frank (& Nina), --- frank wrote: > Hi Sarah and Nina, > Sarah, what was the answer you received in Bkk (Bangkok?)? And were you > satisfied with the answer? ... S: I raised it because Htoo had written sth in a post about the different meanings of these terms and I had thought they were more or less synonymous, but wished to check. I was satisfied because the answer was along the lines I'd understood which we've mentioned -- just different names for different aspects (like with panna, lobha and so many others with all their aspects under different terms). So avijja is an aspect of moha, of not understanding dhammas. In one of the extracts I gave, it suggested that all aspects should be understood. Perhaps in this sense we can say you're right, moha includes many aspects. (Dhsg 390). But in the Vbg quote I gave, I believe moha was given as an aspect of avijja.....along with so many other aspects - eg flood, bond, latent, uprising, barrier, bad root etc etc. In fact, looking at the Pali, the list was almost identical for these aspects of avijja with the Dhsg aspects for moha.... It was a good question... Metta, Sarah ======= 47051 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:11am Subject: Always Different ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Expectation inevitably creates Disappointment: How does one create future frustration for oneself ? By expecting: Ooh May I enjoy such & such form in the future. Ooh May I enjoy this & that feeling in the future. Ooh May I enjoy exactly these perceptions in the future. Ooh May I enjoy my beloved favourite experiences in the future. Ooh May I enjoy only those ideal mental constructions in the future. Ooh May I enjoy solely preferred types of consciousness in the future. On the contrary: One is always content if without any expectations: Let the past be past, passed & forgotten for never return to it again. Let forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions & consciousness here and now in the present be as they may. Let whatever arise & cease... May I relinquish any hope, wish & craving for whatever future forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions & future types of consciousness... May I thus remain just aware, calm, clear, content & unagitated!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 11-12 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47052 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: Any Kind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear htootintnaing & Dhamma Friends: Thanx for the pali clarification. I am responsive to any kind of request as long as it carries the name: Samahita, since then it will be filtered out by some mail filters, I recently have set up to monitor the many groups, I try to be at service at. These will hopefully ensure real Two-Way communication as requested by many. May there be Calm, Content & Happiness : - ] bhikkhu samahita, Sri Lanka 47053 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:16am Subject: Exhaustive Classifications ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend sarah abbott wrote: >there are no dhammas or realities anywhere outside the 5 khandhas. Sadhu! Indeed well spoken! Buddhas always operate with only Exhaustive Classifications ... For people of different capability, these are then formulated at different levels or degree of differentiation: Thus, there are neither any states or realities anywhere outside: 1: Name-&-Form (nama-rupa) (only a duality!) 2: The 12 sources (ayatana) of the senses their objects. 3: The 18 elements (dhatu) of the 12 sources & their consciousnesses. Note it is the 'same all' that is classified, but this 'cake' is cut and divided in a different number of classes. The exhaustive ALL is included in all these four classifications. How neat! How impressive! How complete! Deep is this Dhamma verily... : - ] 47054 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:42am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James {Jon and Sarah} - > > James : I know that this sounds discouraging, because householders > want to have peace and happiness in their lives just as much as > monks/nuns; but this peace and happiness are dependent on one very > important factor: renunciation.Householders, if they wish to achieve as > much as monastics, must be willing to renounce a great many things > and constantly guard the sense doors. Jon, neither of us are doing this > to a significant amount so we can't expect great results. > > Tep: These are very astute observations, James. You hit many nails > right on their heads. Several questions relating to "present-moment" > satipatthana, holy-life/seclusion, samatha-vipassana bhavana and > indriya-samvara sila can be answered by your above remarks. Thanks for the positive comments. Not sure what indriya-samvara sila is but it sounds impressive. ;-) > > > James (talking to Jon): The problem here is that you ask too many > leading questions (as I have pointed out before). You want me to > answer questions in a way which supports your point of view so you > ask questions leading in that direction. This type of exchange is good > for attorneys trying to defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the > current incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a > Buddhist discussion group. > > Tep: Asking leading questions is a trick of political candidates who aim > at leading 'the people' to go to the polls to vote for them. But Jon is not > interested in being a leader, as he tells me in another post today. But if > he changed his mind to become a politician one day, I'd like to > suggest that he adopted a cute nickname to be used during his > political campaign: Jon "Bush" Abbott. ;-)) I hope Jon realizes that we are just poking fun and that it is nothing personal (and President Bush if he should happen to read these posts ;-)). I was surprised about Jon making the comment to you about his not wanting to be a leader. From my perspective, you don't form your own Buddhist Internet group if you don't want to be a leader. > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep Metta, James 47055 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:02am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Andrew T, Thanks for offering your opinion. I have a few comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Regarding "leading questions", these are of 2 types in a court of > law, either > (a) questions that suggest the desired answer; or > (b) questions that assume the existence of disputed facts. > > Whilst Jon stands accused of asking questions that suggest an answer, > I feel his questions admirably uncover the "disputed facts" that > underlie the propositions being put forward. First, I don't quite see it that way. I see questions leading toward a desired answer (perhaps you can offer some examples, such as I have?). Second, there is no reason to ask questions to 'uncover' the 'disputed facts', that method can put people on the defensive. I believe it is better to simply state one's opinion and to only use questions as a means to clarify something that is not understood. However, this could be different when the discussion is face to face. In that case, it is possible to quickly clarify why a question is being asked. In that sense, they are > anything but leading questions. They are very helpful in getting > people to spell out clearly what is being proposed. Socratic questions can do that. However, again, the Socratic Method of questioning is not very useful in an Internet setting, in my opinion. > > We need more of that and not less! If everyone started asking questions of each other without plainly stating positions, it would get pretty hairy around here! ;-) > > Best wishes > Andrew T Metta, James 47056 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/27/05 12:35:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few months. ===================== I would find it very interesting to read some of the detail - to compare "Christian anatta" with Buddhist. If such discussion isn't quite appropriate for DSG, I would at least appreciate seeing specific internet sites (if you know of any) where we could read about this indvidually. BTW, there is something comparable in the Chassidic branches of Judaism as well (based on Cabbala), though I think it is somewhat closer to Advaita Vedanta than to the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47057 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/27/05 2:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: I understand what you are saying about truthfully and figuratively, but I am probably not understanding your example of the rainbows, Howard. I understand that I cannot reach or grasp that rainbow, but I can make you aware of it upon seeing it, and so we can enjoy its nature and non-graspable existence together :-) ====================== The analogy is strained, because the 2 matters are somewhat othogonal to each other, but my meaning is the following, using physicalist conventions: There seems to be some "thing" we see that we call a rainbow - some multi-colored something-or-other that arches across the sky. But more detailed investigation reveals that what is "really" there (physically) pertains to fine water droplets, sunlight, and refraction. But, Herman, I'm quite prepared to drop the rainbow analogy or similar mirage analogies, and just leave it at the point of your understanding the figurative truth - literal truth dichotomy, because that is what I think the whole matter is actually about. BTW, some folks will say that inasmuch as "figurative truth" isn't ultimately "true", it shouldn't be honored by the term 'truth'. But I think that is a mistake. Whatever enhances understanding is a kind of "truth", and, moreover, there are elements of reality expressible via figurative speech in an abbreviatioal, short-cut fashion that cannot in a *practical* way be expressed by literal speech. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47058 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]The four Applications of Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/27/05 4:39:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I do not see any order in the four satipatthanas, I see them as means to develop right understanding at any moment. ==================== Well, in the "meditation" discussed in the Anapanasati Sutta, mindfulness of the body, particularly of the breath, is foundational. And in practice, one typically begins with mindfulness of the body and maintains that as centerpiece. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47059 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan - Your advice: > So the conclusion as I see it is if you want to dry out the wood, don't > worry about wishing for any attainments, just follow the eightfold path > to perfection and the attainments will follow. > How would you "follow the eightfold path to perfection"? Thank you for the good beginning. Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > When I read this sutta, the way I interpreted it was that no matter what > sort of wish you hve for attainments, it is not what gives you the > attainments. The only thing that will lead to attainments is the > eightfold path, namely right view, etc. So in this instance, the soggy > piece of wood is the non-path ie wrong view, etc. > (snipped) > Metta, > > Evan 47060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. nilovg Hi Andrew, James, Tep, op 27-06-2005 01:59 schreef Andrew op athel60@...:> > Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly > excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and > frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. > > I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. ---------- Nina: I agree, Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent. Jon and Sarah are doing the task of being moderators for this list in an admirable way. We have many members with different opinions and thus, it is not an easy task. They do all to keep the good spirit here and we should be grateful to them. We members should do our utmost to continue in this spirit and avoid all personal insinuations and disqualifications, even talking in an ironical way about persons, since this does not help in the least for the understanding of the Dhamma. Nina. 47061 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:10am Subject: Re: Abhinnas & Others jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who > say they do not entertain thoughts of beings. > > Some of the higher powers available to those with mastery of the > mind include: > seeing the rebirths and planes of existence of "others" > reading the thoughts of "others" > I'm wandering what it could mean to someone who doesn't entertain > the thought of beings that proficiency in the nanas and jhanas > leads to knowlede of mental states and abodes of "others"? > > Kind Regards > > Herman Hallo Herman In the thread 'out of social context' I had a discussion with Sarah (and others) about my proposal for a new 'social citta': "THE INTUITIVE, SO IMMEDIATE, AWARENESS OF THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING" After long thinking this was the only possiblilty to me to fill the gap in Abhidhamma with a social dimension. Sarah said 'we' don't need such a new citta. Partly your question is another, about higher powers, but maybe everybody has the possibility to such a citta, that it can be made more sensitive by exercises. An other solution: there is more than one citta: - one in the plane of desire: the 'normal intuition' - one in a higher plane (rupavacara, arupavacara, lokuttara) It will not be easy to convince the Abhidhamma-community to add dhamma to the list (but it will happen in the next five hundred years). Metta Joop 47062 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:18am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Howard, I don't know of any websites that discuss a bridge between a Christian view of the tilakkana and the Buddhist version. It seems that the more that people know the one, the less interested they are in the other. I think this is natural: why study or think about different frameworks when you know that that the one you already know and are comfortable with is so valuable? No, I don't know of any websites that discuss bridging Christian and Buddhist conceptions and insights about tilakkana. And, Howard, you've lost me in your discussion of various branches of Chassidic Judaism, Cabbala, and Advaita Vedanta. The limit of my knowledge of Chassidic Judaism goes little beyond having a sense that Chassidic Jews wear beards (well, at least the men) and black clothes. And that there is an emphasis on strictly following the Law. I can't help but think that among the strongly devout, there wouldn't now and then be glimpses of the futility of upholding the Law in its entirety by conventional right effort. Is there also a notion that not even an iota of the law can be fulfilled by conventional right effort? Metta, Dan > I would find it very interesting to read some of the detail - to compare > "Christian anatta" with Buddhist. If such discussion isn't quite appropriate > for DSG, I would at least appreciate seeing specific internet sites (if you > know of any) where we could read about this indvidually. > BTW, there is something comparable in the Chassidic branches of Judaism > as well (based on Cabbala), though I think it is somewhat closer to Advaita > Vedanta than to the Dhamma. > > With metta, > Howard > 47063 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/27/05 10:20:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: And, Howard, you've lost me in your discussion of various branches of Chassidic Judaism, Cabbala, and Advaita Vedanta. The limit of my knowledge of Chassidic Judaism goes little beyond having a sense that Chassidic Jews wear beards (well, at least the men) and black clothes. ------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Yep, as regards Chassidism, you've zeroed right in on the essentials! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- And that there is an emphasis on strictly following the Law. I can't help but think that among the strongly devout, there wouldn't now and then be glimpses of the futility of upholding the Law in its entirety by conventional right effort. Is there also a notion that not even an iota of the law can be fulfilled by conventional right effort? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Conventional right effort including study, absorptive prayer & contemplation, and a kind of mindfulness practice is central. The other thing that is central is a form of mysticism that allows for direct apprehension of a sole reality that is considered to be unique and unitary, and thought of in various ways including that of "ayin" (nothingness or emptiness) and "ain sof" (unconstrained/unlimited/unconditioned). ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47064 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:52am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... onco111 Ai-yo! Howard, Pali isn't enough for you, eh? Now you are throwing Hebrew at us too? Uff da. Hasta el proximo, Dan P.S. In Buddhism, aren't "nothingness" and "emptiness" distinct notions? > Howard: > Conventional right effort including study, absorptive prayer & > contemplation, and a kind of mindfulness practice is central. The other thing that is > central is a form of mysticism that allows for direct apprehension of a sole > reality that is considered to be unique and unitary, and thought of in various > ways including that of "ayin" (nothingness or emptiness) and "ain sof" > (unconstrained/unlimited/unconditioned). > ===================== > With metta, > Howard > 47065 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: suhada-mitta foamflowers - Good Morning Lisa, I'm at a loss as to your post, "I do remember who you are" or something to that effect. Ya got me babe, whazup with dat? toodles, colette -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Colette, > > Suhada-mitta means 'friend of the heart,' I do remember who you are! > > With Metta, > Lisa Message 46860 From Colette Hi Lisa, If I may Htoo Naing, didn't we encounter each other on a Jhanas site? There, I enjoyed your "sutta's" you posted however the list went to a bad sensation where it was consumed by a rather self-absorbed individual and the owner as well as moderators were more than appreciative of the actions of this self-absorbed individual. At that point I decided they were best left to their own folly and if by chance our paths crossed they would explain their folly to me, if their explanation was realy worth any value. If I may answer this question Lisa has? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Colette I remember you from that particular Jhana site on yahoo. Although I don't remember the individuals running the site as being consumed or self-absorbed. I think most people including myself are that way off and on through out the day. I don't remember Htoo being on the site but there were some very interesting posts made that have been very helpful to me and he may have been one of the people who posted those wonderful suttas and comments. There are so many different kinds of people on the net and so many opinions I just took what I needed and left the rest behind in peace. The yahoo Jhana site did have some helpful information on jhana and vipassana meditation, which I had been looking for and that led me to this site. I remember your posts very well, your writing is very colorful and when I read it I feel like your almost shouting the writing is so strong. That's why I said I remembered you. I mentioned Suhada-mitta means 'friend of the heart,' because your post was very helpful to me and I thanked you and remembered you as Suhada-mitta, a good Dhamma friend. With metta, Lisa 47066 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, Jon, Andrew, and James - I have no idea why my friendly poking at Jon is labeled as "personal insinuations and disqualifications" of Jon's reputation and his method of discussion here. Well, it is more appropriate for Jon to tell us what he thinks -- whether he agrees with Nina and Andrew. If he does, then I will be happy to apologize for my 'bad behavior'. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, James, Tep, > > op 27-06-2005 01:59 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...:> > > Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly > > excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and > > frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. > > > > I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. > ---------- > Nina: I agree, Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent. > Jon and Sarah are doing the task of being moderators for this list in an > admirable way. We have many members with different opinions and thus, it is > not an easy task. They do all to keep the good spirit here and we should be > grateful to them. > We members should do our utmost to continue in this spirit and avoid all > personal insinuations and disqualifications, even talking in an ironical > way about persons, since this does not help in the least for the > understanding of the Dhamma. > Nina. 47067 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/27/05 10:53:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Ai-yo! Howard, Pali isn't enough for you, eh? Now you are throwing Hebrew at us too? Uff da. ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Hasta el proximo, Dan P.S. In Buddhism, aren't "nothingness" and "emptiness" distinct notions? ------------------------------------------ Howard: They sure are! The thing is that the Hebrew 'ayin', while translating literally as "nothing" or "nothingness", has the sense in this case not of a true nullity - so "emptiness" would probably be a better rendering. Think, for example, of nibbana as the supreme/ultimate emptiness. The idea is similar. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. nilovg Hi Tep, Waht I added to your notes are not my own words, but the notes from the Co, as added by Ven. Nanamoli. After that I noticed that Han also gave the same additions. The language is terse and not easy. the sign arisen in dependence on the normal in-breaths and normal > out-breaths is called the sign too.> Especially the first part is difficult. op 26-06-2005 21:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: 2) The object of breathing mindfulness is the "body" (in-breaths, out- > breaths, and the sign) in the sense that once mindfulness is > established, it stays at the object. > ------- Tep: So it seems that you are subtly saying that the 'sign' is not a part of the 'body', while I am saying that it is. N:I do not say this. I have to reflect more, the language is difficult. I understand that the nimitta is the touching of the breath on the upperlip, but there must be more to it. ------ T: Looking further to the second sentence, counting from the one you are > quoting above, you'll see : 'The contemplation is knowledge': the > meaning is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and > contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are > knowledge.[endquote] > > The term "sign body" implies that sign, in-breaths, and out-breaths are > the three things that together are "the body" where mindfulness is to be > established. Also, I recall from #169 the following: > > "Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object > Of a single cognizance; > One knowing not these three ideas (dhamma) > Does not obtain development." > ------ N: Can we say: the rupa where the breath touches? It is the word body that I find difficult. As to next series, for me that is a lot, since the Co has more explanations. It is good you added the Pali and your question is good. I have to see to Visuddhimagga, conceit, first. Nina 47069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samahita Bhikkhu. nilovg Venerable Bhante, I do appreciate your post. I can never get enough of this subject. With respect, Nina. op 27-06-2005 11:16 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu.samahita@...: > For people of different capability, these are then formulated > at different levels or degree of differentiation: > > Thus, there are neither any states or realities anywhere outside: > 1: Name-&-Form (nama-rupa) (only a duality!) > 2: The 12 sources (ayatana) of the senses their objects. > 3: The 18 elements (dhatu) of the 12 sources & their consciousnesses. > > Note it is the 'same all' that is classified, but this 'cake' is cut > and divided in a different number of classes. > > The exhaustive ALL is included in all these four classifications. > How neat! How impressive! How complete! > Deep is this Dhamma verily... 47070 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, James, Tep, > > op 27-06-2005 01:59 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...:> > > Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly > > excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and > > frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. > > > > I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. > ---------- > Nina: I agree, Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent. > Jon and Sarah are doing the task of being moderators for this list in an > admirable way. We have many members with different opinions and thus, it is > not an easy task. They do all to keep the good spirit here and we should be > grateful to them. I am grateful to them. However, calling attention to and questioning Jon's method of questioning has nothing to do with his moderation of this group. I was addressing him as a fellow member and therefore don't need to show any special appreciation. Remember- Jon and Sarah wear two hats: one as moderators and one as members. When I adress either one as members, I don't consider their moderator status. I'm sure if you ask them they will say they prefer it that way. > We members should do our utmost to continue in this spirit and avoid all > personal insinuations and disqualifications, even talking in an ironical > way about persons, since this does not help in the least for the > understanding of the Dhamma. Jon took the neutral comment by Tep as a joke, and carried it forward as a joke (a rare and delightful incident for a "Robot" like him ;-) I hope he does it more. He wrote, "I've been called some uncomplimentary things in the past, but being compared to President Bush is taking it to a new high (or low) ;-))." Now, not only can I tell by the tone that it is a joke, but Jon also put the double smiley face to show it was a joke. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with some light humor in this list now and then. It shows our human sides and allows us to connect a bit more. > Nina. With humorous metta, James 47071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. nilovg Hi James, Tep, OK, I get the point of both of you. But I rather follow Lodewijk's advice: no joking. It may seem severe, but there is always a danger of jokes getting out of hand or being misunderstood. They can hurt. Personally I find them distracting, we have a lot to read on this list, answer, think over. Lack of time. Nina. op 27-06-2005 20:27 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Now, not only can I tell by the tone that it is a joke, but Jon > also put the double smiley face to show it was a joke. In my opinion, > there is nothing wrong with some light humor in this list now and > then. It shows our human sides and allows us to connect a bit more. 47072 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:22am Subject: A sutta here, a sutta there... ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, Ah, Hong Kong, as a sailor I took one look at a shipmates embroidery on his "cracker jacks" as was astonished that it only takes a short time and doesn't cost anything as it would in the states. Who wouldn't lust after such work, huh? There are countless other aspects of Hong Kong I could go into however time leaves me to simply answer your request to the sutta I found so beneficial. I'm sorry I don't seem to have a return address on the bottom of the page however the cover page reads as follows: Duddha first Sermon Chamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta Turning the Wheel of the Dhamma and Anattalakkhana Sutta By Ledi Sayadaw U Pe Maung Tin compiled by M.Paw (Prepared) for Aspirants on the hunt ofr finding the path leading to the cesstion of suffering, Nibbana. anybody know the address or site I might've gotten that from? toodles, colette 47073 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:53am Subject: Evan, you've walked thru a rather large pile! ksheri3 Good Morning Evan, what a hallucination you're having, why are you so masochistic? Too much of that x-tainity thing, I believe, while you were growing up. Okay, lets play, I believe they call it "magi noir". > A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No more need for them. Lets take it easy here and ask where that adage went to: "You are as young as you feel". Lets move up the consciousness and ask Barry Bonds, playing baseball for a living, which happens to be a child's game, making hordes of money, advertising his good fortune to others as a role model and at the same time using drugs, pharmecuticals, from a pharmecutical cartel, to enhance his value to the child's game of baseball and to his bank account. What do middle-managers do as they escalate in the careers if not play games like little children, what do the chance meetings between male & female do at social institutions like bars, if not play games like children to entice the other into compromising positions? the list goes on and on but that is the path you chose to access. May I ask you now for your own good to back out of this course since I'm well versed in wallowing in styes, and defication from others. Again, however, it's not my choice some people just gotta do what they gotta do. ;)) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > I think you should take the time to understand. You are thinking in > terms of base feelings. What happens is a turning away from attraction > to forms. A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No > more need for them. <....> 47074 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:07pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > If everyone started asking questions of each other without plainly > stating positions, it would get pretty hairy around here! ;-) Hi James, Tep and Nina Thanks for your kind and good-natured responses. This will be my last post on this thread because I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that there is a contrary viewpoint to that expressed, actually or humorously, by James and Tep. As a final fairness to Jon, I have to point out that his position on Dhamma questions is clearly set out for all newcomers to read in the Useful Posts. So Jon and Sarah are heading Noosa way in August? I look forward to seeing them again! Best wishes Andrew T 47075 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan, you've walked thru a rather large pile! Evan_Stamato... Yes, I agree but they don't play with childrens' toys. May you be well and happy, With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 12:53 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Evan, you've walked thru a rather large pile! Good Morning Evan, what a hallucination you're having, why are you so masochistic? Too much of that x-tainity thing, I believe, while you were growing up. Okay, lets play, I believe they call it "magi noir". > A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No more need for them. Lets take it easy here and ask where that adage went to: "You are as young as you feel". Lets move up the consciousness and ask Barry Bonds, playing baseball for a living, which happens to be a child's game, making hordes of money, advertising his good fortune to others as a role model and at the same time using drugs, pharmecuticals, from a pharmecutical cartel, to enhance his value to the child's game of baseball and to his bank account. What do middle-managers do as they escalate in the careers if not play games like little children, what do the chance meetings between male & female do at social institutions like bars, if not play games like children to entice the other into compromising positions? the list goes on and on but that is the path you chose to access. May I ask you now for your own good to back out of this course since I'm well versed in wallowing in styes, and defication from others. Again, however, it's not my choice some people just gotta do what they gotta do. ;)) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > I think you should take the time to understand. You are thinking in > terms of base feelings. What happens is a turning away from attraction > to forms. A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No > more need for them. <....> 47076 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Evan_Stamato... Tep, All I was saying is that the soggy wood represents wrong view, etc (wrong path). Drying out the wood is right view, etc (right path). Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 27 June 2005 10:29 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Hi, Evan - Your advice: > So the conclusion as I see it is if you want to dry out the wood, > don't worry about wishing for any attainments, just follow the > eightfold path to perfection and the attainments will follow. > How would you "follow the eightfold path to perfection"? Thank you for the good beginning. Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > When I read this sutta, the way I interpreted it was that no matter > what sort of wish you hve for attainments, it is not what gives you > the attainments. The only thing that will lead to attainments is the > eightfold path, namely right view, etc. So in this instance, the soggy > piece of wood is the non-path ie wrong view, etc. > (snipped) > Metta, > > Evan 47077 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood philofillet Hi all > I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta > I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. My mistake. It was MN 126. "Does desire for the awakening get in the way of the awakening?" is how access to insight puts it in the index. Definitely an interesting question, and one which we will not be able to answer through discussion. It depends whether the chanda is kusala or akusala at the moment of considering Dhamma. (We know that citta is far more likely to be akusala than kusala, so it is safe to say that chanda is more likely to be akusala.) Evan, yes, you're right, getting Right View in place precedes all. But getting Right View in place is not easy - it certainly is more than asking oneself if one is free of annihaltionist view, eternalist view etc. I read one sutta this morning (MN 115, skilled in elements) in which "one possessing right view" is defined as sotapanna, at least. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat an formation as permanent - there is no such possbility." i.e at lest sotapanna) So yes, by drying out the soggy wood I agree, getting right view in place. But no so easy. On the other hand, thinking that X must be done before Y is possible to make Z happen is the wrong approach. As Rob K suggests, here and now, whatever our situation, whatever the amount of sensual input in our life, is the place and time for satipatthana. But patience is requited, and desire for results definitely should be questioned...patiently. Metta, Phil 47078 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Evan_Stamato... Hi Phil, I agree with you. Right view is very difficult go perfect so starting with right speech, right livelyhood, right action can help with the more difficult "rights". That's not to say that the other elements of the path should be neglected but there are elements that are easier to improve than others. We should just do what we can and be content with what we can do. Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 9:54 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Hi all > I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta > I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. My mistake. It was MN 126. "Does desire for the awakening get in the way of the awakening?" is how access to insight puts it in the index. Definitely an interesting question, and one which we will not be able to answer through discussion. It depends whether the chanda is kusala or akusala at the moment of considering Dhamma. (We know that citta is far more likely to be akusala than kusala, so it is safe to say that chanda is more likely to be akusala.) Evan, yes, you're right, getting Right View in place precedes all. But getting Right View in place is not easy - it certainly is more than asking oneself if one is free of annihaltionist view, eternalist view etc. I read one sutta this morning (MN 115, skilled in elements) in which "one possessing right view" is defined as sotapanna, at least. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat an formation as permanent - there is no such possbility." i.e at lest sotapanna) So yes, by drying out the soggy wood I agree, getting right view in place. But no so easy. On the other hand, thinking that X must be done before Y is possible to make Z happen is the wrong approach. As Rob K suggests, here and now, whatever our situation, whatever the amount of sensual input in our life, is the place and time for satipatthana. But patience is requited, and desire for results definitely should be questioned...patiently. Metta, Phil 47079 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Here's an attempt to sort out our points of controversy: S: "it's important to understand that cittas experience or cognize objects" L: "Why?" S: "Because namas (i.e cittas and cetasikas) can never be understood if their characteristic of experiencing objects is not known. For example, take seeing consciousness. It experiences visible object. Right now as it arises, that is it's nature or characteristic. If there is no visible object to be seen, there is no seeing. The same applies to attachment/desire. It doesn't arise in a vacuum, but when it arises it clings on to its object." ==================== Larry: Here's another way to look at it: "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact". Notice it doesn't say consciousness experiences forms. Here is a slightly different case: if like experiences visible data, what is the experience? Like or visible data? It makes more sense to me to say a visible data experience conditions the arising of a like experience. Before that happens, a visible datum (?) conditions the arising of a visible data experience. I would call 'eye-consciousness' a visible data experience and 'a visible datum (?)' a rupa. I think a better characteristic for nama is "being an experience", rather than "experiencing an object". Second point: I will concede that ignorance is blind. It is blind to the three general characteristics and to individuality (sabhava). What does that mean in the case of an ignorant experience of visible data? I would call it a conceptual experience. ============== S: "visible object is the paramattha dhamma. I would never say 'blue' is a paramattha dhamma. Visible object has the aspect of colour, however...various colours." Larry: I don't understand. Do you mean visible object is several colors at the same time? ================= L: "My view is a 'seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma' is a concept." S: "yes, whenever there is the idea of a permanent p.d, it's a concept – not the real thing. However, before there is that illusion, there is the experiencing of the p.d with or without ignorance. At such times, even if it's not known, the p.d is experienced." Larry: I could change my view to "a seemingly not impermanent paramattha dhamma...." in order to deal with just pure ignorance, without wrong view. As for "even if it's not known, the p.d is experienced", this is trickier than I at first thought. Here's version #3: What is not known (because of blindness/ignorance) and what is experienced? We could say visible data is experienced without noticing (experiencing) the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta and that experience is the object of desire (or what conditions the arising of desire). My basic position is that whatever is perceived inaccurately is a conceptualization. However, I can't think of a really convincing argument to support that, so, that's the best I can do. One other thought did occur though. It has to do with sabhava which I translated (above) as 'individuality'. I had previously thought of sabhava as the particular characteristic that differentiated a dhamma from all others. The hardness of tangible data, for example. However, if ignorance is blind to that, can't experience it, how could there be attachment or aversion toward hardness? As a remedy for that, I wonder if sabhava might mean "not an object". 'Object' is actually a concept like 'left' or 'up'. It is half of a dualism, the other half being 'subject'. In other words, 'sabhava' might mean 'simply itself' as opposed to being part of a relationship. This sounds a little like satipatthana, but I'll have to meditate on it. Also, 'individuality' may not be the best choice. Larry 47080 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, interested DSG members - Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given below. Sincerely, Tep ============== From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - 199. (message # 1111) Dear Tep, I have put in the Pali words, and broken up the paragraphs for easy understanding. 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). (1) When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of permanence (niccasannam pajahati), (2) when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of pleasure (sukhasannam pajahati); (3) when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self (attasannam pajahati), (4) when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight (nandim pajahati), (5) when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raagam pajahati), (6) when he causes cessation he abandons arising (samudayam pajahati), (7) when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaanam pajahati). Thus he contemplates the body. 198. 'Development': there are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (1) development in the sense of non-excess of ideas produced therein (dhammanam anativattanathena bhaavanaa), (2) development in the sense of single function of the faculties (indriyaanam ekarasathena bhaavanaa), (3) development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate energy (tadupaga viriya vaahanathena bhaavanaa), and (4) development in the sense of repetition(aasevanathena bhaavanaa). [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 199. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths (diigham assaasapassaasa vasena cittassa ekaggatam avikkhepam pajaanato), (1) his feelings (vedanaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); (2)his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa sannaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); (3) his applied-thoughts (vitakka) are recognized as they arise (viditaa vitakkaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); --------------------------------------------------- Han: pajahati = abandon anati vattana = non-excess ekarasa = single function vaahana = effectiveness aasevana = repetition viditaa = clearly recognizable uppajjanta = arises upathahanti = established abbhatthataa = disappearance --------------------------------------------------- Tep's questions: ----------------------- In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising (uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaana). Han: Please look at the paragraphs again and see whether they are still unclear to you. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ====================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, All - > > Han Tun's contribution for Section iv, 194 -196, is shown below. > > Please notice that the in-breaths and out-breaths are the 'body' > (kaaya), 'gladness' is 'pamojja' not 'piti', and that the 1st tetrad is > known as 'kaaye kaayaa nupassanaa satipatthana bhaavanaa' since the breaths are "body in the body" as stated in DN 22.. > > 47081 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:23pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi everyone, Consider this post to be drenched in honey before you proceed :-) > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > There is much ignorance about the processes of cittas which > experience objects through the six doors. Do we realize whether > there is at this moment seeing, hearing or thinking, or does it > seem that these experiences occur all at the same time? > > In reality only one object can be experienced at a time through the > appropriate doorway. If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. To apply quantity to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. Further, to objectify consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an arbitrary state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of experience. In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic experiencelets. I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about which is what, the framework and the reality. Kind Regards Herman When there is hearing only sound is experienced > through the ears and when we think of the meaning of the words which > are spoken there is not hearing but thinking of concepts. > > Thinking arises in another process of cittas, it arises in a mind-door > process and this is different from the ear-door process. > > Does it seem that hearing can stay for a while? In reality this is not so, > it falls away immediately. But when right understanding has not been > developed the arising and falling away of cittas cannot be realized. > ***** > [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 47082 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest sarahprocter... Dear Friends, ...and onsider this post to be a few brief techno words before you proceed :-) A few updates on the back-up site for DSG: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ 1. The 46’s are now up (i.e posts 46,000- 46,999) thanks to the great work of Connie. These back-up files can be used for searching or for easy scrolling if anyone, like RobM used to, wishes to download and read the archives on a long, long flight. 2. Now that the mystery of the repeated disappearing google search box has been solved (thanks to the detective work of Jon & Connie:)), it should remain in place on this site for the easiest searching of past posts. [a)put in search items, eg ‘spiral Howard Jon’, then when you are given a list of relevant options, b)choose the first, click on ‘cached’ to highlight terms, and c) use ctrl + F and key in word, eg‘spiral’ & next to scroll through quickly] 3. More edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin uploaded – Sri Lanka 2002. (with Sukin, Chris, Betty, Jon,myself,Ranil, Sumane & others). You may wish to download the recordings as we will probably have to rotate them as we edit and upload more, due to limited space on the site. If anyone would like a cd with mp3 on it of any of the recordings, please let Jon or I know (off-list)with your name and full add (in cut and paste form) and we’ll be happy to mail it to you. [4. Talking of google searches, I do recommend gmail for receiving DSG mail if you wish to be able to search incoming mail and also have threads of posts neatly stacked together, as some do....I can see at a quick glance in my gmail account that there have been 76 posts in the walking gacchanto thread! I still prefer using my regular a/c for posting, following incoming mail and printing out, however. To get a gmail a/c you have to have a gmail invite. Let us know if you need one...Thx to Hugo again for this] Metta, Sarah ======== 47083 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:15am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 233 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Moha is ignorant of the true nature of realities, it does not know nåma and rúpa as they are. Moha is lack of knowledge about the four noble Truths: about dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha and the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha1. So long as ignorance has not been eradicated we have to continue to be in the cycle of birth and death, we have to be born again and again. The Påli term avijjå is used for ignorance in connection with the “Dependent Origination”, the conditional arising of phenomena in the cycle of birth and death. Avijjå is the first link in the chain of conditions for the continuation of this cycle. At the attainment of arahatship ignorance is eradicated and then there are no more conditions for rebirth. We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandha-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, III, Last Fifty, Chapter 3, §129, Satisfaction) that in the Deerpark at Isipatana Mahå-Koììhita said to Såriputta: * “‘Ignorance! Ignorance!’ is the saying, friend Såriputta. Pray, friend, what is ignorance, and how far is one ignorant?” “Herein, friend, the untaught manyfolk know not as it really is the satisfaction in, the misery of, the escape from body. So with feeling, perception, the activities… they know not the satisfaction in, the misery of, the escape from consciousness. "This, friend, is ignorance, and thus far is one ignorant.” * In the next sutta (§130) it is said that wisdom is knowing as it really is the satisfaction in, the misery of and the escape from the five khandhas. If there is no development of right understanding one does not see that conditioned realities which arise and then have to fall away again are dukkha, and thus there cannot be escape from dukkha. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47084 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:24am Subject: audio recordings, google and techno babble sarahprocter... All, I forgot to change the subject heading....S. (I was testing the recordings as I posted and didn't know how to turn them off, so was pretty distracted:/). Sumane & Ranil, do hope you're still around and get to listen too. (Gayan, if you're there, pls would you kindly show Ranil the message - his voice comes over very well:))). --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > ...and onsider this post to be a few brief techno words before you > proceed > :-) > > A few updates on the back-up site for DSG: > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ 47085 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Sarah, Thank you very much for your post. It is greatly appreciated. I would like to reply in detail, which will happen, but not just yet :-) Just a quick answer regarding your travel to Oz. I would love to meet up with Jon and you. It's a bit hard at the moment to make a fixed booking, but if Noosa turns out too difficult then Sydney will be a nice fallback. When things firm up as to your movements, let me know, and I'll plan accordingly. Looking forward to it already :-) Kind Regards Herman > Herman, Jon and I are planning to be in Sydney and also Noosa in the first > half of August (nothing fixed yet). Would you be able to meet us in one or > other place? Perhaps you and your wife might like a weekend in Noosa for a > holiday and to meet us and others too ??w'end Aug13th? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 47086 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Sutta sarahprocter... Hi James & Tep, James, I like your choice of 'the Great Lion's Roar', DN8 and enjoyed your summary and comments. I particularly like the description of the two kinds of asceticism in the sutta and how we cannot tell by lifetsyles of mortification and harsh asceticism about the development of wisdom and whether someone is really 'an ascetic' in the deeper sense. ... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > My online version of this DN 8 does not describe with enough detail the > way that the Buddha recommended Kassapa to develop wisdom. > There are inserted notes (see below) that refer to another sutta, DN 2. > I > have no idea why someone inserted such notes. Was it because DN 8 > was too brief? Or because s/he wanted to shorten it? ... S: Tep, it's the same in the two printed versions of the sutta too. These parts of the sutta are repetitions of DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, so they give the references rather than reprint in full, I believe. Basically verses 41-98 of DN2 should be included. Metta, Sarah ======= ... > An Exerpt from DN 8: > Digha Nikaya 8 Mahasihanada Sutta 1 The Great Lion's Roar > http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/dn-8.htm > > "But, Kassapa, when a monk develops non-enmity, non-ill-will and > heart full of loving-kindness and, abandoning the corruptions, realises > and dwells in the uncorrupted deliverance of mind, the deliverance > through wisdom, having realised it in this very life by his own insight, > > then, Kassapa, that monk is called an ascetic and a Brahmin." > > Then Kassapa said to the Lord : "Reverend Gotama, what then is the > development of morality, of the heart, and of wisdom?" > > "A disciple goes forth and practises the moralities [Digha Nikaya 2 > verses 41-63]. That is the perfection of morality. He guards the > sense- > doors, etc and attains the four jhanas [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 64-82 ]. > That is the perfection of the heart. He attains various insights and > the > cessation of the corruptions [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 83-98]. That is the > > perfection of wisdom. And Kassapa, there is nothing further or more > perfect than this perfection of morality, of the heart and of wisdom." > [endquote] 47087 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41pm Subject: Subtle Highly Refined Addictions ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Hi friend Nina van Gorkom who wrote: >I can never get enough of this subject. If one is slightly addicted to e.g. Abhidhamma a.o. advantageous teachings, then one should leave also this raft behind, without turning around nor looking back even once! Nothing is worth clinging to anyway... your kalyana-mitta : - ] 47088 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:02am Subject: Elemental Analysis ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: From external Element to internal Urge to silly Search: There is the element of eye-sensitivity, the element of visual form, the element of visual consciousness. The coincidence of these three is eye Contact... In dependence on the element of eye-sensitivity, there arises eye-contact. In dependence on eye-contact, there arises feeling born of eye-contact. In dependence on feeling born of eye-contact, there arises this craving... In dependence on the element of visual form, there arises perception. In dependence on this visual experience, inclination towards form arises. In dependence on this inclination, desire for particular forms arises. In dependence on this specific desire, a fever for various forms arises. In dependence on this fever for form, search after certain forms arises. In dependence on this search for form, reaching & acquisition of form, comes into being... Such is the arising of this entire mass of suffering... Similarly with the pairs of ear & sound, nose & smell, tongue & taste, body & touch, mind & mental states and their respective kinds of consciousness. This search, this urge, this compulsive drive, is caused by that craving. Craving that was born from feeling, which was arised from contact. Any Craving causes Suffering... Right here and now, later and much later... Right there at Contact, is this suffering thus born... Right there at Contact, is this suffering thus left... Source: The Grouped Sayings on the Elements by the Buddha. Dhatu-Samyutta Nikaya XIV http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 47089 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, --------------- KH: > > If the slaughterman suddenly quits his job (with the intention of > > keeping the first precept) isn't he thinking, "mine, me, my self?" ........... AT: > At the risk of side-tracking poor old Ken H again (-:, it seems to me that thinking in the above terms is a proliferated "standing still" that conditions sinking and not crossing the stream. ------------------------- I don't know if I will sink or get swept away, but at the moment I am treading on thin ice! I must appear to be advocating every kind of precept breaking. ------------------------------ AT: > Conditions will govern what happens, including the volitional aspects. Why not just leave it at that? ------------------------------ I am sure that is the right answer to my question. ---------------------------- AT: > BTW Millie the cat is behind me now, still not walking but lively enough to give me a good scratch as I gave her her pre- breakfast medicine. I'm not mentally agonising about what to do with her. We just carry on moment by moment ... ---------------------------- Hmmm, I'm still not happy with that. You have to know *how* to carry on. Decisions need to be made. My point (wrong though it might have been) was that the Dhamma does not specifically help us with conventional decision-making. So, in the absence of any better ideas, we should follow the social norms. Whatever career and lifestyle we are engaged in, we should just follow standard procedures - without pretending to have control over realities such as right livelihood. Ken H 47090 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg]The four Applications of Mindfulness, Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 27-06-2005 14:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: N: I do not see any order in the four satipatthanas, I see them as means to > develop right understanding at any moment. > ==================== > Well, in the "meditation" discussed in the Anapanasati Sutta, mindfulness > of the body, particularly of the breath, is foundational. And in practice, > one typically begins with mindfulness of the body and maintains that as > centerpiece. ------ N: Samatha and vipassana are developed by means of it. One can reach arahatship even with the four discriminations. The more I read about it, the more complicated it seems to me. Take alone the sign, the nimitta. The learner's sign I can understand more or less: where the breath appears at the upperlip. But then the counter inmage, patibhaaga nimitta (at acess concentration) and the attainment nimitta, when jhaana is attained. In the higher jhaanas breathing ceases, how subtle it all is. And all the stages of insight have to be developed when one emerges from jhana. Starting with tender insight as the Co to the Path of Discrimination explains. The four great elements and derived rupas have to be known, and mental phenomena. In what way does it help you with insight? It seems that this meditation only makes sense when one is able to attain jhana at ease. I do not see that this is for beginners. Maintaining it as centerpiece: this seems to me only for those advanced very talented people with jhana accumulations we read about in the Buddha's time. Nina. 47091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries nilovg Hi Tep, I begin with some additions from the Co. to the Satipatthanasutta, which is partly similar to the Co to the Path of Discrimination, but the latter adds more on insight. Afterwards I shall add more from the Co to the Path of Discrimination. ------ Text: > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it > > (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no > niccato); > (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); > (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato);.... ------ Thereupon, he, the worker in respiration, cognizes the mind (nama) in the pentad of mental concomitants beginning with sense-impression. Subco: The worker in respiration examines the mind and the body, sees the Dependent Origination of ignorance and so forth, and concluding that this mind and this body are bare conditions, and things produced from conditions, and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. Subco: ..... And the yogi who has transcended doubt while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and soullessness, to the mind and body together with the conditions and gradually reaches arahantship [sappaccaya nama rupe tilakkhanam aropetva vipassanam vaddhento anukkamena arahattam papunati]. .... The worker in absorption, namely, he who contemplates upon the factors of absorption, also thinks thus: Supported by what are these factors of absorption? By the basis. The basis is the coarse body. The factors of absorption are here representative of the mind. The coarse body is the body. Having determined thus, he, searching for the reason of the mind and the body, seeks it in Conditions' Mode beginning with ignorance, concludes that this mind and the body comprise just conditions and things produced by conditions and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, and becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and soullessness, to the mind and the body together with conditions and gradually reaches arahantship. *** Nina. 47092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Tep's Questions nilovg Hi Tep, op 27-06-2005 01:15 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep's questions: > ----------------------- > In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades > away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he > abandons arising(uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons > grasping(aadaana). > > When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next > sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated > by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is > destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease > (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still > have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? -------- N: I repeat a few points: 4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). I checked some relevant passages of the Visuddhimagga on the third tetrad of mindfulness of breathing that may be of help. We read (Visuddhimagga VIII, 233): Œ... at the actual time of insight he delivers, liberates the mind from the perception of permanence by means of the contemplation of impermanence, from the perception of pleasure by means of the contemplation of dukkha (suffering), from the perception of self by means of the contemplation of not self, from delight by means of the contemplation of dispassion, from greed by means of the contemplation of fading away, from arousing by means of the contemplation of cessation, from grasping by means of the contemplation of relinquishment...² As to the words, , we read in a footnote (Vis. VIII, 234, note 64): Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of insight knowledge (the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, sees their danger and disadvantage. At the end of this tetrad, the Vis. states that this tetrad deals with contemplation of citta. The Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta (the Papa~ncasuudanii, translated by Ven. Soma) states that just as in the case of body and feelings, citta should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. Nina: these contemplations refer to the stages of insight: in the course of insight there is a clearer understanding of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, and hence there is a growing detachment from conditioned dhammas.> **** We discussed before relinquishment: there are two ways: as cutting off defilements and as experiencing nibbaana. We have to consider that there are more than one meaning. Contemplation of relinquisment or abandonment is one of the eighteen kinds of insight. -- You wrote:Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? --------- Tanhaa, all forms of it, is eradicated by the arahat, and then there will be freedom from samsara. Thus, indeed, grasping ceases, etc. As to relinquishment, see above. It does not concern the body, but a growing insight and the experience of nibbaana. **** Nina. 47093 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - Thank you for the clarification. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James & Tep, > > James, I like your choice of 'the Great Lion's Roar', DN8 and enjoyed your > summary and comments. > > ... > S: Tep, it's the same in the two printed versions of the sutta too. These > parts of the sutta are repetitions of DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, so they > give the references rather than reprint in full, I believe. Basically > verses 41-98 of DN2 should be included. > > Metta, > > Sarah 47094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samahita Bhikkhu. Subtle Highly Refined Addictions ;-) nilovg Venerable Bhante, I am not so far yet to leave the raft behind. I need the whole Tpitaka and Commentaries. And the reason is exactly to develop paññaa leading to detachment. Thank you for writing. With respect, Nina. op 28-06-2005 07:41 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu.samahita@...: > Hi friend Nina van Gorkom who wrote: > >> I can never get enough of this subject. > > If one is slightly addicted to e.g. Abhidhamma a.o. > advantageous teachings, then one should leave also > this raft behind, without turning around nor looking > back even once! Nothing is worth clinging to anyway... > > your kalyana-mitta > : - ] > 47095 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:37am Subject: Not so much at home jwromeijn Hallo all The next months I'm hardly at home (retreats, travelling etc) And hardly Internet-access will do me good: feel sometimwes addicted, even when I'm surfing on buddhist sites Perhaps I send a message now and then Metta Joop 47096 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, [I wrote this yest but had computer problems and couldn't send it. Pls do continue to write to us when you have time and best wishes for your retreats and travels....always glad to hear from you....] --- Joop wrote: > J:> This is not 'more detail', Sarah, these are additions. > .... > S: I don't think so. See posts under `Dhammasangani' in U.P. As a > separate thread, I'm happy to go into these topic again in detail. > Take a look and tell me if you're still not satisfied. > Joop: I took a look, I was and I am satistied; that is: I still think > that's possible to add dhammas to the list of the Dhamma Sangani. But > better not discuss about this topic further (it's my intention to be > more careful than some months ago) so I propose: let's agree tot > disagree. .... S: Either way is fine. The cetasikas which are considered by some to be ‘additions’ in the Abhidammattha Sangaha are the 9 denoted by ‘yevapanika’ in Dhammasangani, i.e chanda, adhimokkha, manasikara, tatramajjhattata, karuna, mudita and the 3 path factors which fall under sila. I don’t think anyone would suggest that these are new to the Abhidhamma texts. Take karuna, compassion.....and remember the suttas on the Buddha’s great compassion.... .... > > The same proposal I have about 'my social citta'; you may be right > about what 'thinking' is Abhidhamma was, but I didn't say that" the > intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another being" > was thinking. ... S: No, you didn’t say so, but I was saying that this is included in cittas and the accompanying cetasikas described. Remember there’s nothing so fast as the speed of cittas and that they are far more variegated than any picture. With almost every citta, there is vitakka ‘touching’ the object and other cetasikas performing their functions. So by the time there is an ‘immediate awareness of the presence of another being’, countless numbers of processes of cittas have arisen and passed away after seeing or other sense door experiences. .... >Maybe it's not a citta but till now you or others have > not given me a good alternative to describe the social dimension of > Abhidhamma. ... S: I think I understand you. I think it’s similar to Herman’s comments about beings and I’m sure many others have the same concerns. .... <...> > Joop: In the first place: I'm not afraid of paradoxes, in fact I like > them. In the second place, when you say "nama or rupa arising", you > are talking of the arising of nama and rupa in me, and I knew that > already; my statement was that I don't want (for ethical reasons) to > reduce that suffering being to an 'It'. .... S: I wouldn’t say that nama and rupa arise in anyone. This would be another kind of sakkaya ditthi – (in brief, a) namas and rupas being the self, b) self in the namas and rupas, c)self outside them, d) self as owner of them) Again, think of the Buddha’s great compassion for all beings, but without any illusion of beings actually existing or any Self in any of these ways. Understanding dhammas leads to more not less ethical consideration. .... > Joop: Come on, that's to modest. But Nyanaponika versus Bhkkhu Bodhi > was about phenomenology versus ontology. More important is my second > step, with the conclusion: we should read all the Teachings of the > Buddha (and the Abhidhamma) from the soteriological viewpoint, that > is that He wanted to liberate the hearer/reader. ... S: Yes, I agree with you as you defined the term for me. The teachings are for development and liberation, not for intellectual or academic achievement or for developing more pride. ..... >So we should not > make any non-soteriological interpretation to these teachings; for > example not making physics and not making metaphysics from them. And > maybe yo're not good in philosophy, soteriology is our core-business > in DSG, isn't it? ... S: Yes, I’m with you wholeheartedly here. ... > S: What is actually experienced when you look at another being? > As I asked Tep, what is seen? What is heard? What is touched? What is > smelt? What is tasted? What is thought about or conceptualized only? .... > Joop: It's not possible to give a general answer to that question, > it's too much and too mixed. ... S: Let’s take one at a time because I think it’s important and relevant to your questions. When you look at a person, what is seen? We think it’s a man or a lady of such and such a name and so on. Isn’t this really thinking? Surely, all that’s seen is visible object.... .... > BTW Thanks for your help in the stagnated discussion between Htoo and > me; I can imagine very good Htoo's being careful. ... S: :-) We all have our own approaches. ... Metta, Sarah ======== 47097 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest lbidd2 Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic experiencelets." Hi Herman, What is experience? Larry 47098 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for giving the long Co. to the Satipatthanasutta in order to warm up the discussion prior to the Breathing Treatise (the Anapanasati commentary by the Arahant Sariputta). Tep: Do you personally believe that the examination of the body (rupa) through "thinking" such and such <.. ... 'Supported by what is respiration? Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the coarse body [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four Great Primaries etc.. ...> can be done alone without having to first "emerge from the absorption"? If so, would that kind of "thinking" lead the 'assasapassasa kammika' toward the various insight knowledges as described in the Breathing Treatise, and toward arahantship as stated by the Co.? I ask this question because you yourself have rejected the necessity of absorption(jhana) as the basis for wisdom development (to eradicate asavas). Tep: Another part of the Co. is :"The worker in absorption, namely, he who contemplates upon the factors of absorption, also thinks thus: Supported by what are these factors of absorption? By the basis. The basis is the coarse body. The factors of absorption are here representative of the mind. ... .... concludes that this mind and the body comprise just conditions and things produced by conditions and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, and becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and soullessness, to the mind and the body together with conditions and gradually reaches arahantship". Tep : The above quote is another indication that "the worker in absorption" cultivated insight knowledges by applying tilakkhana to nama by contemplating "upon the factors of absorption" (jhana factors) that are supported by the "body" (rupa). This is a standard way for transcending doubts by means of samatha and vipassana of nama-rupa. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I begin with some additions from the Co. to the Satipatthanasutta, which is > partly similar to the Co to the Path of Discrimination, but the latter adds > more on insight. Afterwards I shall add more from the Co to the Path of > Discrimination. > ------ > Text: (snipped) > And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while cultivating insight, applies > the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and soullessness, to > the mind and the body together with conditions and gradually reaches > arahantship. > *** > Nina. 47099 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic > experiencelets." > > Hi Herman, > > What is experience? > It is what is. Kind Regards Herman PS I am appreciating your discussions. > Larry 47100 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest philofillet Hi Herman I hope it doesn't feel like I'm pestering you these days. Happily our recent exchange has allowed me to move beyond the infantile aversion response to your posts so that I can benefit from discussing with you. :) > > Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic > > experiencelets." The point is not what Herman, or Larry, or anyone else here thinks experience is, but what the Buddha taught us about what *He* experienced in order to achieve liberation. "Rely on yourself", yes, but the point is to come to understand the Buddha's teaching not form our own interpretations/explanations. The point of Dhamma is detachment and liberation, not psychology or the physiology of sensory experience. Yes, the Buddha most certainly taught that experience is made up of elemental components (see, for one of many examples, MN 115 which is entitled "many kind of elements" in BB's translation.) It doesn't seem to our ignorance-rooted minds that reality is momentary, but that is a reflection of our ignorance, not reality. Metta, Phil 47101 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Those passages from 'The Visuddhimagga' are always refreshing to me every time I read them (have a copy of the book myself). Nina:... Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of insight knowledge the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, ... Tep: But, isn't the paragraph #197 about the very first ground of the Anapanasati meditation? And we recall that the first ground's meditation object is the breath 'body = long in-breaths and out-breaths. So, I guess the "contemplation of cessation" given by the above Co. may not apply to the case here. ----------------------------------- Nina: The Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta (the Papa~ncasuudanii, translated by Ven. Soma) states that just as in the case of body and feelings, citta should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. Tep: This is an issue that has confused me for a long time. According to the Paramattha-dhamma, a citta (or consciousness) arises and then subsides so fast. So, how can the meditator realize its origination and cessation if not through thinking analytically? How can he contemplate its impermanence if he does not directly experience its dissolution himself? Reading, listening and considering such citta's arising-and- passing-away phenomenon cannot lead to insight knowledges, I think. --------------------------- >Tep: Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease >(according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does > he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? Nina: Tanhaa, all forms of it, is eradicated by the arahat, and then there will be freedom from samsara. Thus, indeed, grasping ceases, etc. As to relinquishment, see above. It does not concern the body, but a growing insight and the experience of nibbaana. Tep: I like this general explanation, Nina. But I feel that it does not apply to the case of the breath-meditation worker doing the first ground in which "long in-breaths and out-breaths" are the object of cognizance. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 27-06-2005 01:15 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Tep's questions: > > ----------------------- > > In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he > > abandons arising(uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons > > grasping(aadaana). > > > > When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? > -------- 47102 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest lbidd2 Herman: "It is what it is." Hi Herman, Let's take the hypothetical case of an occasion when you don't like something. Say, you don't like a particular idea. If we examine this experience we might see that an idea is really nothing to dislike. It's merely an idea. But something is definitely disliked, so what is it? Imo, what is disliked is always only unpleasant feeling. But unpleasant feeling is almost never experienced by itself. In the normal course of events we would attach that unpleasant feeling to either the idea or dislike. This is what we do, but it is deluded, not the way things really are. The idea isn't a feeling and dislike isn't a feeling. Feeling is only a feeling, dislike is only dislike, an idea is only an idea. If we can examine our experience like this and experience the components for what they are, it might happen that it would no longer make sense to dislike anything. That's the idea. Larry 47103 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Jon, Nina and all Thanks for your support, Jon. I appreciate having met caring friends through the internet. > I'd like to endorse what Sarah says here about supporting one's > parents. I will reflect on the value of a lot of phone calls. Probably that would help my father more than my mother - presumedly folks with Alzheimer's would benefit more from a physical presence, which I will rarely be able to provide, than verbal communication. (Even at the best of times, my mum was not one to carry on a logical conversation! ) But we'll see what happens. I've been reflecting now and then about why I haven't been more upset about this than I have. Whether it's a characteristic coldness about loved ones, or a kind of wisdom, perhaps accumulated from past lives (since I've always been like this) or both, or what. No conclusions, of course, but one thing is for sure - whenever worry comes up about it, my mind skips ahead away from worrying about my parents to worrying about me and Naomi. For the last few years I've been worrying about out future quite often, so this new sad story has me churning up new sad stories about me and Naomi. The mind churns up so many sad stories, so many worries, so much suffering before the fact. So it seems to me that that wise thing to do is see this sad story as a condition that *might* lead me to be as present as possible for Naomi, as tender, as patient, as appreciative of being together, of communicating lucidly and without crankiness and so on. My natural tendency is to worry about myself and her rather than my parents, so I will not force the mind to go where it doesn't naturally. Yes, the Buddha taught that we should support our parents, that we have a duty to do so, but I don't think it's wise to force things into our lives that don't come naturally. That goes for meditation, and it goes for social obligations too. If we force a sense of duty to arise, it is not kusala, it is just rooted in worry and guilt. If pop psychologists out there are thinking that comes from cold parents, believe me, it doesn't - as far as I can see. I've lived awway from home for a long time and been emotionally detached for a long time, for whatever reason... And I am getting courage from the Buddha's teaching, especially the last few days MN 115, "many kinds of elements" which starts with this stirring paragraph: "Bhikkhus, whatever fears arise, all arise because of the fool, not because of the wise man: whatever troubles arise, all arise because of the fool, not because of the wise man; whatever calamities arise, all arise because of the fool, not because of the wise man." This is in line with the passage from A. Sujin that I quoted last week, which inspired me so. When there is awarness of present realities, understanding (even intellectually) of the Buddha's teaching, there are therefore fewer stories, less fear. This is the way to liberation. I read a story in the New York Times about a battle in Iraq in which a soldier encouraged a gravely wounded comrade to think about his loved ones to take away the pain. That is the characteristic response to fears of death, of disease taking away the loved ones - love them harder, hold on to them tighter. But it can't be that way if we believe that the Buddha taught liberation through detachment. We don't have to be cold or indifferent when we understand people for what they truly are in ultimate terms - we can love them with right understanding, and that makes it easier to let go. This is so easy for me to say, of course. My sad story is just beginning. You and probably most people here have lost a parent or other loved ones - I haven't. But I am at least being inspired and encouraged in a shallow way on this point by the Buddha's teaching. Nina, I mentionned that I was going to type out the transcript of the rest of that conversation about "there is no Nina" but now the pile of tapes has shifted and I have no idea where it is. I listen to them in a random way, so next time it comes up I may type it out. But yesterday I found one of your past posts that encouraged me along the lines described above. You write: "I cannot tell myself not to cling to Lodewijk, that would be unrealistic and insincere. (Phil's note - and I can't tell myself to cling to my parents more than I do.) What really helps is seeing one's own wrong view for a moment: our confusion as to seeing visible object and thinking sad stories on accound of what we see. (Phil's note - I think this applies to any of the doors) Seeing one's wrong view, that is a moment of right understanding. Some rare and brief moments of beginning to understand what seeing is, as different from thinking, that gives me confidence in satipatthana as the only way leading out from dukkha." In the recorded talk I mentioned above, A. Sujin says that we want to go to the left, and to the right. We want to find comfort in conventional realities, and develop our understanding of ultimate realities as well. (This second sentence is just my interpretation what she means by "going right and left." Please correct me if I'm wrong.) We *can* have it both ways, and do have it both ways, but ever-so-gradually wisdom will develop in a way that leads us to follow only the true way, the only way that leads to liberation. But that will take time. We will love people and suffer for it for many lifetimes to come, probably. But in the light of the Buddha's teaching, the suffering will become easier to let go of as our understanding deepens. Well, that's enough of a ramble for today. Metta, Phil 47104 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Trivial Intellectual Pursuit or real Progress... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: _There is these 3 increasing levels of Understanding:_ 1: Intellectual by dhamma-study only. (pariyatti = theory). 2: Training morality & meditation. (patipatti = praxis). 3: Penetration to the irreversible fruits (pativedha). One doing only dhamma-study needs practice to progress. One doing only morality & meditation needs study to progress. Having enjoyed some fruits one needs more study & praxis to progress. : - ] 47105 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:47pm Subject: Diversity of Contacts ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Diversity of Contacts gives many Urges & Searches: There is eye-sensitivity, visual forms, & visual consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is eye Contact... There is ear-sensitivity, audible sounds, & auditory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is ear Contact... There is nose-sensitivity, smellable odours, & olfactory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is nose Contact... There is tongue-sensitivity, tastable flavors, & gustatory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is tongue Contact... There is body-sensitivity, sensible touches, & tactile consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is body Contact... There is mental-sensitivity, mental states, & mental consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is mental Contact... Friends, it is in dependence on the diversity of these elements, that there arises the diversity of perceptions; & in dependence on the diversity of perceptions, that there arises the diversity of intentions; & in dependence on the diversity of intentions, that there arises the diversity of contacts; & in dependence on the diversity of contacts, that there arises the diversity of feelings; & in dependence on the diversity of feelings, that there arises the diversity of desires; & in dependence on the diversity of desires, that there arises the diversity of fevers; & in dependence on the diversity of fevers, that there arises the diversity of searches; & in dependence on the diversity of searches, that there arises the diversity of enthralling needs... How so? Regarding e.g. form; in dependence on intention for form, there arises contact with form; in dependence on contact with form, there arises feeling born of contact with form; in dependence on feeling born of contact with form, there arises desire for form; in dependence on desire for form, there arises fever for form; in dependence on fever for form, there arises the search for form; in dependence on the search for form, there arises the need of form... Such is the emergence of this manifold hunt, urge & wanting! Every second of our lives this bombardment of sensuality creates suffering! Source: The Grouped Sayings on the Elements by the Buddha. Dhatu-Samyutta Nikaya XIV http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 47106 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:08pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 234 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] It is hard to know the characteristic of moha. The Buddha taught us to be mindful of the realities which appear, but we have many moments of dullness. We should learn to see the difference between awareness and forgetfulness of realities. When there is forgetfulness of realities the citta is akusala. Even when there is no attachment or aversion, there can be akusala citta; there can be the type of moha-múla-citta which is accompanied by restlessness (uddhacca)(2). This type is bound to arise very often in between the other types of akusala citta, but we do not realize it. Ignorance is dangerous and extremely hard to eradicate. The sotåpanna sees realities as they are, he has no more wrong view about them, but he has not eradicated ignorance. Ignorance is eradicated stage by stage and only the arahat has eradicated ignorance completely. *** 2) There are two types of moha-múla-citta: one is accompanied by doubt (vicikicchå-sampayutta) and one is accompanied by restlessness (uddhaccasampayutta). ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47107 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Please continue your meditations on this thread....I think they’re important ones:) Before I start, I’d like to suggest that ‘experience’ is possibly being used in different ways. We can talk about: a) experience of an object which is the function of cittas and cetasikas regardless of whether they’re kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya b) experience of an object in a limited sense of referring specifically to the functions of wisdom and awareness when there is a ‘knowing’ of the object c) experience in a conventional sense of ‘I had a good/bad experience’, referring to all sorts of realities and concepts d) experience in a kind of hybrid merged nama/rupa sense, as in ‘the experience’ through the senses. For clarity, here I’m only using it to mean a) above. Now, lots for me to meditate on in your post: ..... --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: Here's another way to look at it: "Dependent on the eye and > forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact". > Notice it doesn't say consciousness experiences forms. .... S: Consciousness is vinnana or citta, ie experience or experiencing. Seeing is a kind of experience. What does it experience? Visible object. That’s why it’s not the same as hearing or any other kind of experience or citta. Even when, as you rightly pointed out, a citta or cetasika is the object of another citta and cetasikas, it still has the same characteristic and fucntion which has to be known. Sidenote: CMAp27, BB note “The Pali word ‘citta’ is derived from the verbal root ‘citi’, to cognize, to know. The commentators define citta in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes an object (aaramma.na”m cintet’i ti citta”m). As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintentii ti citta”m). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamatta”m citta”m).” For this discussion, Larry, please bear with me in following the Theravada renderings. ..... >Here is a > slightly different case: if like experiences visible data, what is the > experience? Like or visible data? .... S: Like is a nama, so it experiences the object which citta experiences. Visible object is a rupa. Rupas don’t know or experience anything at all. Take the rupas which make up a log of wood. They don’t know or care who sits on them, what the temperature is or who stubs a toe on them. Like, on the otherhand, experiences the visible data in its own particular way, quite different from the way dislike experiences the data and different from the way seeing consciousness experiences the data. ..... >It makes more sense to me to say a > visible data experience conditions the arising of a like experience. > Before that happens, a visible datum (?) conditions the arising of a > visible data experience. I would call 'eye-consciousness' a visible data > experience and 'a visible datum (?)' a rupa. ... S: Yes, it starts getting a bit clumsy with datum and data, so I’ll stick to visible object and objects or v.o. here:) Let’s say all these dhammas – the eye-consciousness, the v.o. and the like all have many conditions for their arising. Yes, v.o. is an essential condition for eye-consciousness to arise – with no v.o. impinging on the eye-sense, there will be no eye-consciousness arising. When we’re asleep, there’s no eye-consciousness, for example. There are other essential conditions, such as the eye-sense, the contact and most importantly, past kamma to bring about its result of eye-consciousness. With regard to the ‘like’, the main condition is the accumulation of liking. Even when liking doesn’t arise, the latent tendency is still there in the citta. Liking of this or that colour now conditions more liking in the future. Lobha leads to more lobha. Yes, in this example, if there is no v.o. being experienced now, there cannot be any liking for it (the paramattha dhamma), but because of those accumulations and the big role of sanna (memory), there can still be lots of liking for the idea of that v.o. or colour. ..... > I think a better characteristic for nama is "being an experience", > rather than "experiencing an object". .... S: If we don’t understand that nama experiences an object, there will always be the idea of Self experiencing or Self having the experience, as I see it. Let’s discuss this point more. .... > Second point: I will concede that ignorance is blind. It is blind to the > three general characteristics and to individuality (sabhava). What does > that mean in the case of an ignorant experience of visible data? I would > call it a conceptual experience. .... S: v.o. has sabhava, it’s own characteristic or ‘individuality’ regardless of whether it’s known or not. All day, isn’t v.o. being experienced with ignorance? It is on account of this ignorant experiencing of it that there’s no ‘guarding’ of the sense door(s) and all the usual proliferations and ignorant conceptualizations follow. > ============== > S: "visible object is the paramattha dhamma. I would never say 'blue' is > a > paramattha dhamma. Visible object has the aspect of colour, > however...various colours." > > Larry: I don't understand. Do you mean visible object is several colors > at the same time? > ================= S: Visible object. is just that which is seen. When we look in front of us now at the computer and background – a T.V., plants, table, books etc....it is just v.o. which is seen. However, it’s not a blue/red/green ‘blank’ image. If it were, we wouldn’t be able (or sanna wouldn’t be able’ to form concepts of computers and plants and meaning in the text. Again, pls persist with this question. .... > Larry: I could change my view to "a seemingly not impermanent paramattha > dhamma...." in order to deal with just pure ignorance, without wrong > view. .... S: Ignorance just doesn’t know – no idea or view about a p.d or concept. As soon as there is any idea (like above) it seems more like wrong view. From your Vism#46370 “By its means they see wrongly, or it itself sees wrongly, or it is just the mere seeing wrongly, thus it is ‘wrong view’. Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. Its function is to preassume.....” Of course, only panna can tell when dhammas such as ignorance or wrong view arise, what is what. Definitions only get us so far (as discussed in the ‘motion’ thread). .... > > As for "even if it's not known, the p.d is experienced", this is > trickier than I at first thought. Here's version #3: What is not known > (because of blindness/ignorance) and what is experienced? We could say > visible data is experienced without noticing (experiencing) the > characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta and that experience > is the object of desire (or what conditions the arising of desire). My > basic position is that whatever is perceived inaccurately is a > conceptualization. However, I can't think of a really convincing > argument to support that, so, that's the best I can do. ... S: I got a bit lost in the first part, maybe because I think you’re using a few of the meanings of ‘experience’ mixed together here:): (pls try again if you wish). I agree with your basic position at the end. .... > > One other thought did occur though. It has to do with sabhava which I > translated (above) as 'individuality'. I had previously thought of > sabhava as the particular characteristic that differentiated a dhamma > from all others. The hardness of tangible data, for example. ... S: Yes ... >However, if > ignorance is blind to that, can't experience it, how could there be > attachment or aversion toward hardness? .... S: When we eat an ice-cream, there is ignorance when we taste it, but there’s still desire.Remember that when there’s desire, there’s always ignorance. There’s sth I’m missing in your question – maybe the definition of ‘experience’ again. Let me know if I haven’t ‘got’ it. .... >As a remedy for that, I wonder > if sabhava might mean "not an object". 'Object' is actually a concept > like 'left' or 'up'. It is half of a dualism, the other half being > 'subject'. In other words, 'sabhava' might mean 'simply itself' as > opposed to being part of a relationship. This sounds a little like > satipatthana, but I'll have to meditate on it. ... S: I think so – I mean, I think you’ll have to meditate on as I think you’re losing the plot here. As I said, let’s just stick to the Theravada line for this discussion so that it’s clear (and then of course, you can reject it totally if you don’t agree:)). .... >Also, 'individuality' may > not be the best choice. ... S: I think that’s the least of our problems:) Particular/individual nature or characteristic if you prefer. Really great meditations, Larry... Metta, Sarah ====== 47108 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others sarahprocter... Hi Herman, [*Evan (&Phil)] --- Egbert wrote: > I wander what the citta was when the Buddha knew something about the > mind of an "other"? What does the Abhidhamma say about it? ... S: I don't think we can ever overestimate the extent of the direct knowledge of the Buddha. Whatever he put his mind to, he could know 'directly', not just conceptually. So he'd know the others' minds as dhammas. And as Howard said, we talk about beings and rebirths and so on...but these are conventional terms which 'would take aeons to unpack that figurative speech and replace it with literal speech'. Well, now I quote it, I'm not sure about the aeons...we could simply say, just namas and rupas in a split-second:). I think the rainbow analogy worked well. .... > > Sorry to be so tiresome :-) ... S: Keep up the 'tiresome' and testing of Phil's metta in action:)). Yes, I think I'll take just a teaspoon of honey from time to time, thanks. We'll look f/w to meeting you too. Metta, Sarah *p.s Evan, you've been writing some good posts recently inc. the 'giving up' of toys one to Colette, the soggy wood summary to Phil following his own good quote & summary on it (and other topics too, Phil), and yr excel summary of B.Samahita's sutta post. Perhaps we'll meet you too in Syd or Noosa way? ============================ 47109 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for your feedback. Sarah: I particularly like the description of the two kinds of asceticism in the sutta and how we cannot tell by lifetsyles of mortification and harsh asceticism about the development of wisdom and whether someone is really 'an ascetic' in the deeper sense. James: Why do you particularly like this description? What does it mean to you and your life? Where do you see yourself in this description? Do you see yourself as an ascetic and a Brahmin according to the Buddha's description? If so, why? If not, why not? (I'm looking for a deeper and personal reaction to the sutta. It could be helpful for everyone.) Metta, James 47110 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Tep's Questions nilovg Hi Tep, op 29-06-2005 02:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Nina:... (nirodha). Or contemplation of cessation is contemplation such that > formations cease only and do not arise with future renewal. For this is > Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muccitu-kamyataa) grown > strong...> > Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of > insight knowledge the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna > has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, ... ---------- > Tep: But, isn't the paragraph #197 about the very first ground of the > Anapanasati meditation? And we recall that the first ground's > meditation object is the breath 'body = long in-breaths and out-breaths. > So, I guess the "contemplation of cessation" given by the above Co. > may not apply to the case here. > ----------------------------------- N: paragraph #197: 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). Is this not insight? Realizing the three characteristics of nama and rupa? Anupassati: this is used for insight. The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.¹ And see para 195: 195. ((f)Through zeal he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by extent. .. (g) Through gladness... Should he not realize these namas with insight? **** The Visuddhimagga states that even the first tetrad refers to samatha and vipassana. The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read: < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: **** > Nina: ... citta should be contemplated in seven > ways: as impermanent... -------- > Tep: This is an issue that has confused me for a long time. According > to the Paramattha-dhamma, a citta (or consciousness) arises and then > subsides so fast. So, how can the meditator realize its origination and > cessation if not through thinking analytically? How can he contemplate > its impermanence if he does not directly experience its dissolution > himself? ------------- N: Right, it is not thinking. There are several stages of insight. The second stage of tender insight penetrates nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. Conditions for their arising, but paññaa knows this directly. As you say, citta falls away so fast. But in a following process it can be object of insight. We can still call it the present object since processes succeed one another so fast. (For the same reason lobha that has just fallen away can be object of insight in a following process.) Take the first stage of tender insight. Nama and rupa are clearly distinguished from each other through the mind-door. Thus, by insight in different mind-door processes. Cittas succeed one another so fast, one could not count the different processes. It all occurs as in a flash. In the same way insight in different mind-door processes realizes origination and cessation. Do insist if this is not clear yet, it is an important point. When there is more detachment, less holding on, insight turns more to the falling away of realities and it sees their danger. It is paññaa, not we who think about it. -------- Tep: Reading, listening and considering such citta's arising-and- > passing-away phenomenon cannot lead to insight knowledges, I think. > --------------------------- N: We have to begin with the first stage: realizing the difference between nama and rupa. What you just mentioned (listening, etc.) are conditions for direct awareness and understanding. But this is a separate issue, often discussed with Howard, and this discussion may continue. I would concentrate on the text for now. ------- >> Tep: Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease >> (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does >> he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? > > Nina: Tanhaa, all forms of it, is eradicated by the arahat, and then there > will be freedom from samsara. Thus, indeed, grasping ceases, etc. > As to relinquishment, see above. It does not concern the body, but a > growing insight and the experience of nibbaana. > > Tep: I like this general explanation, Nina. But I feel that it does not apply > to the case of the breath-meditation worker doing the first ground in > which "long in-breaths and out-breaths" are the object of cognizance. -------- N: More than that. See my quote above of the Visuddhimagga. The anapanasati is part of Mindfulness of Body. Its aim is seeing the body in the body, not a self. This begins already with the first tetrad and leads to arahatship. With regard to the Path of Discrimination: the whole work deals with the development of insight, no matter what chapter you take. The four Discriminations (patisambidhas) are to be realized by the arahat with the highest qualifications. Nina. 47111 From: nina Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168 and Tiika. Conceit. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 168. Conceit. Intro. The Vis. refers to the third and fourth types of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: 3)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted 4)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted These two types which are without wrong view may or may not be accompanied by conceit. Conceit does not arise together with wrong view. It is different from wrong view. The sotaapanna who has eradicated wrong view still clings to the khandhas. He does not take the khandhas for self, but he may cling to the khandhas with conceit, or he may cling to them with lobha-muulacitta that is without conceit. When one finds oneself better, equal or less than someone else, there is conceit. But also when one does not compare onself with others, there may still be clinging to the importance of oneself, and then there is conceit. ****** Text Vis.: 168. (24) With the third [unprofitable consciousness] (24) there should be understood to be associated those given for the first (22), excepting wrong view (xli). ------- N: In that case there are sixteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the third type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. ---- Text Vis.: But here the difference is that there is inconstant [occurrence] of (xliv) pride (conceit). ---------- N: But, the Tiika mentions, with the inconstant cetasika conceit, there are seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompanying the third type of akusala citta. Thus, conceit may or may not arise with citta rooted in attachment that is without wrong view. -------- Text Vis. :That has the characteristic of haughtiness. ------ N: The Tiika explains the term u.n.nati, loftiness which is used in the Dhammasangani § 1117. It refers to the text: ŒI am better¹... and so on. Because of conceit one thinks oneself to be better than someone else, equal to him or less than him. ------- Text Vis.: Its function is arrogance. ------ As to arrogance (sampaggaha), the Tiika explains this as haughtiness, u.n.namo, another term used by the Dhammasangani. It states that also inferiority conceit (omaana), considering oneself less than someone else, should be understood as arrogance. ------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as vaingloriousness. -------- N: Vaingloriousness stands for the Pali: ketukamyataa, desire for a banner. This term is used in the Dhammasangani. Conceit is compared to the flaunting of a flag. -------- Text Vis.:Its proximate cause is greed dissociated from views. N: The Tiika explains that the occurrence of ŒI am¹ conceit seems to be similar to wrong view, and that it arises because of affection for oneself. However, conceit and wrong view do not arise together with the same citta and therefore he said: Œits proximate cause is greed dissociated from views.¹ As to the ŒI am¹ conceit, one may think oneself better, equal or less than someone else. Or one clings to the importance of oneself without comparing. ---------- Text Vis.:It should be regarded as like madness. (25) With the fourth (25) should be understood to be associated those given for the second (23), excepting wrong view (xli). And here pride (xiv) is among the inconstant too. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that with the word Œand¹ (ca), sloth and torpor are implied. Thus, the fourth type of citta rooted in attachment is prompted, like the second type, but it is without wrong view. It may be accompanied by conceit, and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas which are prompted. ******* Conclusion. The affection for oneself is deeply rooted and there are many occasions for the arising of conceit. As we read, the arising of conceit is compared to the flaunting of a banner. We read in the ³Expositor² (II, p. 479): Conceit always arises together with ignorance which hides the true nature of dhammas. It arises countless times but we do not notice it. When there is conceit, there is no wieldiness, not pliancy or adaptibility but instead rigidity of mind. At such a moment one cannot be openminded to the Dhamma, one cannot listen to the Dhamma. Conceit prevents one from being respectful and polite, it can condition harsh, impolite speech. It prevents one from rejoicing in someone else¹s kusala or praise. Any object that appears can be an opportunity for conceit. The ŒBook of Analysis¹ (Vibhanga, Ch 17, §832) enumerates many occasions for conceit, such as erudition, popularity, intelligence, one¹s siila or the attainment of jhaana. We read in the Mahaa-Niddesa ( A.t.tada.ndasutta, Embraced Violence, Khuddaka Nikaaya) about conceit on account of the experience of pleasant sense objects. When one enjoys the pleasant worldly conditions of gain, praise, honour and wellbeing there may be conceit. Or, when one suffers from the unpleasant worldly conditions, the loss of the pleasant worldly conditions, there may also be conceit. One finds oneself important and wonders: Œwhy should it happen to me¹. The experience of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses is vipaaka, conditioned by kamma. It is a form of lunacy to have conceit on account of such experiences. When one performs a good deed, there are kusala cittas, but there are also likely to be akusala cittas with conceit; one is pleased with oneself and one thinks with conceit about onself as a good person. Or someone believes himself to be humble, but he may take pride in his humility. There is conceit when one feels oneself superior and also when one feels oneself inferior. When someone has committed evil, conceit may arise in the form of self-loathing, self-contempt and self-detestation. That is inferiority conceit (omaana). In the passage of the Mahaa-niddesa quoted above we read further on that conceit can be the object of insight. Conceit arises when one elevates oneself and when one looks down on someone else. Insight realizes the characteristic of conceit when it appears as a type of naama and later on it realizes it as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. Through insight conceit can finally be abandoned. Only the arahat has completely eradicated conceit. ****** Nina. ****** Nina. 47112 From: nina Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:19am Subject: greetings from Rob Ep nilovg Hi Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, all who know Rob Epstein: He said: It is taking a long time... I hope you are well, and thank you for continuing to think of me. Please give my best to everyone.> Nina. 47113 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] greetings from Rob Ep upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/29/05 2:19:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, all who know Rob Epstein: He said: are all happy! I will try to come and say hello soon. Nina, I have not yet finished the book, but I have it in the hands of someone who is a good editor. I hope to get suggestions back soon for improving the structure and putting the final form together. It is taking a long time... I hope you are well, and thank you for continuing to think of me. Please give my best to everyone.> Nina. ============================= Thanks for forwarding this! Should you be writing back to Rob for the list, please let him know that it's great to hear from him and that I'm happy that things seem to be going well with him! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47114 From: "avinduandura" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:17am Subject: Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura I would like to ask for help to clarify some douts which is in my mind about buddha and the buddhism. I know little about the buddhism but have deep experience gained from life.I have to use simple terms as I haven't studied buddhism. When it come to experience the world through 6 sense of bases, eye, ears, body, toung nose are the most reliable methods for me. I never belive on mind as a good tool to sence the world or truth for many reason. for example, we see different but nearly perfect world in dreams. we go to strange place, see things which havent ever seen but every thing fit with each other and feel those are very real.we read paras on books, hear what people are saying but from where those comes from? I dont like to ask this question but I have no other option to solve this matter. If buddha got into the state where he start to see totally different world only by his mind? (friends, very sory to use this words) people believe buddha could activate or use over 70% of brain cells comparing to the amount of less than 5% used by even a scientist. if this kind of a brain made him to see whole doctrine by means of mind only? any body who totally calm their mind may start to see this same world as shown by the buddha. my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. Couls we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? again sory for this posting, iam asking because this thoughts preven me from taking big step in life.. 47115 From: "hudchinson" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution hudchinson Hello from Toronto, in Canada I just joined and the way my computer displayed the messages, this was the first one I saw. It is probably the most important Sutta I have ever read, it certainly helps me see how important many others are!! So, rather than introduce myself further, I want to ask if anyone has put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous translation and explanation? OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. This certainly looks like a really knowledgable group. I don't have so much to contribute, but, if I may, I have many questions. Thanks Tom. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given below. > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ============== > > From: han tun > Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - > 199. (message # 1111) > > Dear Tep, > > I have put in the Pali words, and broken up the paragraphs for easy > understanding. > > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it > > (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no > niccato); > (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); > (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); > (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); > (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no > rajjati); > (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); > (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). > > (1) When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of > permanence (niccasannam pajahati), > (2) when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of > pleasure (sukhasannam pajahati); > (3) when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self > (attasannam pajahati), > (4) when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight (nandim > pajahati), > (5) when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raagam pajahati), > (6) when he causes cessation he abandons arising (samudayam > pajahati), > (7) when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaanam pajahati). > > Thus he contemplates the body. > > 198. 'Development': there are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): > > (1) development in the sense of non-excess of ideas produced therein > (dhammanam anativattanathena bhaavanaa), > > (2) development in the sense of single function of the faculties > (indriyaanam ekarasathena bhaavanaa), > > (3) development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate > energy (tadupaga viriya vaahanathena bhaavanaa), and > > (4) development in the sense of repetition(aasevanathena bhaavanaa). > > [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] > > 199. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- > distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths (diigham > assaasapassaasa vasena cittassa ekaggatam avikkhepam > pajaanato), > > (1) his feelings (vedanaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa > vedanaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) > (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham > gacchanti); > > (2)his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa > sannaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) > (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham > gacchanti); > > (3) his applied-thoughts (vitakka) are recognized as they arise (viditaa > vitakkaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) > (viditaa > upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham > gacchanti); 47116 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest ksheri3 Hi Herman, hmmm, the Adams family meets the Munsters huh? ;)) I haven't had the time to read too much here but when I hit a point I went into "babble mode", see below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Consider this post to be drenched in honey before you proceed :-) > > > > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > > ========================================== > > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > > > There is much ignorance about the processes of cittas which > > experience objects through the six doors. colette: no time to trivialize so I'll let it go. Do we realize whether > > there is at this moment seeing, hearing or thinking, or does it > > seem that these experiences occur all at the same time? > > > > In reality only one object can be experienced at a time through the > > appropriate doorway. colette: ya had to do it didn't ya? Where the hell are ya gonna say that I can only experience a single sensation through a single door? Do you mean to actually have me beleive that my eye can only see one thing at a time, that my skin can only feel one thing at a time, etc. <....> > > If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. > > "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote > quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. colette: I disagree! Quantity is a property of experience since numbers denote quantity I can say that x% of my life has been devoted to the study of...? <...> ---------------- To apply quantity > to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. colette: do you mean to equate yourself to Paris Hilton? Man, when you step on toes you sure know where to be steppin'. Further, to objectify > consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an arbitrary > state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. > > In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of > experience. colette: I'll send the re-possessing agents over to your home immediately! You obviously lied on every document you signed from the time you became 18 years of age since you have no accumulation of knowledge, experience. Since you have no knowledge and experience now and according to the above theory, you never did and never will, You therefore are taking all for yourself from myself and you have already capitulated whereas I am not going to go quietly. <.....> In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, > atomic experiencelets. > > I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework > whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about > which is what, the framework and the reality. colette: how can a framework exist since you do not recognize anything as reality, in fact you reject all applications of manifestation to reality. Boy, and I thought I was spacey some times! ;)) With Iddhividha, colette 47117 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Herman: "It is what it is." > > Hi Herman, > > Let's take the hypothetical case of an occasion when you don't like > something. Say, you don't like a particular idea. If we examine this > experience we might see that an idea is really nothing to dislike. It's > merely an idea. But something is definitely disliked, so what is it? > Imo, what is disliked is always only unpleasant feeling. But unpleasant > feeling is almost never experienced by itself. In the normal course of > events we would attach that unpleasant feeling to either the idea or > dislike. This is what we do, but it is deluded, not the way things > really are. The idea isn't a feeling and dislike isn't a feeling. > Feeling is only a feeling, dislike is only dislike, an idea is only an > idea. If we can examine our experience like this and experience the > components for what they are, it might happen that it would no longer > make sense to dislike anything. That's the idea. > == I accept what you are saying, and I agree with it. In a round about way, and with much less clarity and precision, I am probably aiming for the same target. What I am saying is that, without differentiation, or in reality, there are no components of experience. The components of reality become apparent through action. Differentiation into seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting etc and then differentiating these into pleasant and unpleasant and so forth come about through specific actions. The mindstate, nibbana, which is the aim of Buddhism, is one where there is no differentiation, IMHO. To achieve that mindstates, one (for want of a better shorthand description) needs to cease the act of differentiating. And to be able to do that one needs to come to know that one is differentiating, how one is doing that, and then to stop doing that. There are no actual components of experience without making them, so to speak. Kind Regards Herman > Larry 47118 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Phil, > Hi Herman > > I hope it doesn't feel like I'm pestering you these days. No, to the contrary, Phil, I am very happy to be discussing with you. > > > > Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic > > > experiencelets." > > The point is not what Herman, or Larry, or anyone else here thinks > experience is, but what the Buddha taught us about what *He* > experienced in order to achieve liberation. "Rely on yourself", yes, > but the point is to come to understand the Buddha's teaching not form > our own interpretations/explanations. The point of Dhamma is detachment > and liberation, not psychology or the physiology of sensory experience. > Yes, the Buddha most certainly taught that experience is made up of > elemental components (see, for one of many examples, MN 115 which is > entitled "many kind of elements" in BB's translation.) It doesn't seem > to our ignorance-rooted minds that reality is momentary, but that is a > reflection of our ignorance, not reality. > The following is my opinion only, of course. The suttas can be likened to an unordered collection of doctor's notes and prescriptions, found in a surgery after some 40 years of practice. It has been the work of others to collate, study and interpret them. The prescriptions of the Buddha are to specific people, or to groups of people. He prescribed starting with the particular thicket of beliefs the specific patient(s) presented with. Which only makes sense, doesn't it? That experience was composed of elements was certainly a current belief in those days, and the teaching of the Buddha in relation to that was not to expand that and get into ever finer and finer detail about that, but that all condition phenomena have three basic characteristics, and how to get beyond that. There are prescriptions very specifically for people with families, jobs, responsibilities and aspirations in the world, and we would be well advised to follow the prescriptions relevant to us, wouldn't you reckon? see for example Everyman's Ethics http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html Kind Regards Herman > Metta, > Phil 47119 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Colette, It is good to be reading your feedback. Before I respond I might just ask you to reread your post, because it seems there is some confusion as to who wrote what. I was replying to a section out of Nina's book on Cetasikas, posted in a series by Sarah. My tirade doesn't start until "If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe." I will reply properly tomorrow. Toodles, Ms Adams :-) Herman 47120 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I have snipped most of your post in order to focus on the essentials. S: "If we don't understand that nama experiences an object, there will always be the idea of Self experiencing or Self having the experience, as I see it." L: To experience an object is agency. An agent is a doer. A doer is a self. If consciousness experiences an object, consciousness is an agent. It is better to say an object conditions the arising of a consciousness. An object and a consciousness together can only be a concept because a compound cannot be an ultimate. Eye-consciousness plus visible object cannot be an ultimate reality because it is two. Eye-consciousness plus visible object cannot be an ultimate reality experience; it is a conceptual formulation only. S: "Visible object. is just that which is seen. When we look in front of us now at the computer and background – a T.V., plants, table, books etc....it is just v.o. which is seen. However, it's not a blue/red/green 'blank' image. If it were, we wouldn't be able (or sanna wouldn't be able' to form concepts of computers and plants and meaning in the text." L: Hmm. Well, I think visible object is a blue/red/green blank image. What else do we see but merely colours? I think Howard and Nina had a discussion on whether the visible object paramattha dhamma could be a field of colours, but I don't remember what their conclusion was. Just from a logical point of view an ultimate can't have components because then you would have an ultimate of an ultimate. However, I'm not sure this is really practical. Are we to say only the primary colours (red, blue, yellow, + black and white) are paramattha dhammas while all shades of colours are concepts? Regarding what ignorance is ignorant of and what it means to be blind, I couldn't tell if we are in agreement or not. Just to repeat, I think ignorance is ignorant of the three general characteristics but not ignorant of the distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma. For example, if I fail to see a visible object, that is not ignorance. But if I see a visible object but fail to see that it is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self, then that is ignorance. You might ask, what about failing to see my own faults? Is that ignorance or not? At this point I'm leaning toward saying not. Otherwise, anything short of omniscience would be ignorance because I would always be failing to see something; or failure to be conscious of two characteristics at the same time would be ignorance. However, 'blindness' to the intrinsic nature (sabhava) of a paramattha dhamma is common to all consciousnesses and cetasikas except wisdom (panna). I am making a distinction between 'distinguishing characteristic' (which is my own invention) and sabhava. For example, colour is the distinguishing characteristic of visible object. I am not 100% clear on what sabhava is. There must be something in the Satipatthana Sutta that points to the experience of sabhava. Something that all other consciousnesses ignore. Any ideas? [According to Vism., sabhava is not the general characteristics.] Larry 47121 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:56pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Tom {Attn. Sarah and Jon} - I am delighted to know that in your 36-37 years of continuous meditation you never missed even a day. That is a perfect record, Tom. You wrote that you did not have much to contribute to us. Well, the greatest contribution you can make here, in my opinion, is to write about your great meditation experience! I think you might end up with getting many questions from the floor instead of getting a chance to ask us many questions. As far as I know, no DSG members have yet "put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous translation and explanation". But Sarah and Jon might have a different answer. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hudchinson" wrote: > Hello from Toronto, in Canada > > I just joined and the way my computer displayed the messages, this > was the first one I saw. It is probably the most important Sutta I > have ever read, it certainly helps me see how important many others > are!! > > So, rather than introduce myself further, I want to ask if anyone has > put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous > translation and explanation? > > OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal > sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles > over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a > Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. > > This certainly looks like a really knowledgable group. I don't have > so much to contribute, but, if I may, I have many questions. > > Thanks > > Tom. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > > > Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given > below. > > 47122 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest lbidd2 Herman: "The mindstate, nibbana, which is the aim of Buddhism, is one where there is no differentiation, IMHO. To achieve that mindstate, one (for want of a better shorthand description) needs to cease the act of differentiating. And to be able to do that one needs to come to know that one is differentiating, how one is doing that, and then to stop doing that." Hi Herman, I agree, except instead of saying "stop doing that" I would say "doing that stops". One of the biggest (grossest) differences is self and other. Larry 47123 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168 and Tiika. Conceit. lbidd2 Nina: "and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas which are prompted." Hi Nina, Does this mean sloth and torpor resist the prompt? I am prompting myself to wash the dishes but nothing is happening. But that would mean washing the dishes is akusala. Is that right??? Also, I was interested in the difference between self-view and conceit so I looked-up self-view in the Buddhist Dictionary (below). It seems that self-view is defining oneself in relation to one of the khandhas. Larry -------------------------- sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.): (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations or consciousness; (6-10) to be contained in them; (11-15) to be independent of them; (16-20) to be the owner of them (M. 44; S. XXII. 1). See prec., ditthi, upádána 4. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm 47124 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:54pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 235 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Shamelessness and Recklessness Ahirika, shamelessness or consciencelessness, and anottappa, recklessness or disregard of blame, are two other akusala cetasikas which arise with each akusala citta. In the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 160) ahirika is translated as consciencelessness and anottappa as shamelessness. They are defined as follows: * Herein, it has no conscientious scruples, thus it is consciencelessness. It is unashamed, thus it is shamelessness (anottappa). Of these, ahirika has the characteristic of absence of disgust at bodily misconduct, etc., or it has the characteristic of immodesty. Anottappa has the characteristic of absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of absence of anxiety about them… * The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives a similar definition. The Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní do not give the function, manifestation and proximate cause of shamelessness and recklessness. The Paramattha Mañjúså (Mahå-Tíka), a commentary to the Visuddhimagga, deals with these aspects (1). According to the Paramattha Mañjúså, the function of shamelessness is doing evil without being ashamed of it, and the function of recklessness is doing evil without dreading it. Their manifestation is not to shrink or draw back from evil. *** 1) I have used the Thai translation, given by Ms. Sujin Boriharnwanaket, in her Abhidhamma lectures at the Saket Temple in Bangkok. ***** ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47125 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution sarahprocter... Hi Tom, Welcome to DSG and thank you for introducing yourself. --- hudchinson wrote: > Hello from Toronto, in Canada > > I just joined and the way my computer displayed the messages, this > was the first one I saw. It is probably the most important Sutta I > have ever read, it certainly helps me see how important many others > are!! > > So, rather than introduce myself further, I want to ask if anyone has > put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous > translation and explanation? ..... S: This study is thanks to a lot of hard work on Tep's part. There is just the Nanamoli English translation of the text as far as I know without any commentary translation. Tep, Nina, Han and others are adding details from the Pali and Thai versions and discussing difficult points. I know they'll be very glad of your input too. Perhaps down the road, there will be a 'continuous translation and explanation'. You may also like to read the series of posts Nina wrote on the overlapping sections on anapanasati in the Visuddhimagga. [See 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG and scroll down to 'anapanasati'2]. ..... > OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal > sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles > over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a > Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. > > This certainly looks like a really knowledgable group. I don't have > so much to contribute, but, if I may, I have many questions. .... S: Interesting and I'm sure you're being very modest. I'll greatly look forward to reading your contributions and any questions. You'll also meet one or two other Canadians in due course....Pls let us know if you need any other help. You may not have seen my post in which I mentioned that the back-up of the entire DSG archives can be used for searches or downloading at dhammastudygroup.org. Metta, Sarah ======= 47126 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? sarahprocter... Dear Friend*, Welcome to DSG too. I hope you find it helpful and enjoyable to be here. --- avinduandura wrote: > > I would like to ask for help to clarify some douts which is in my > mind about buddha and the buddhism. I know little about the > > buddhism but have deep experience gained from life.I have to use > simple terms as I haven't studied buddhism. ... S: Simple terms are fine! .... > > When it come to experience the world through 6 sense of bases, eye, > ears, body, toung nose are the most reliable methods for me. I never > belive on mind as a good tool to sence the world or truth for many > reason. > > for example, we see different but nearly perfect world in dreams. we > go to strange place, see things which havent ever seen but every > thing fit with each other and feel those are very real. ... S: Why do you think it's a 'nearly perfect world in dreams'? What makes you think that these experiences are really seen and felt as opposed to being merely imagined or thought about through the mind? .... >we read paras > on books, hear what people are saying but from where those comes from? ... S: Are you sure that when we dream these aren't tricks that the mind is playing, based on our memories? .... > > I dont like to ask this question but I have no other option to solve > this matter. If buddha got into the state where he start to see > totally different world only by his mind? (friends, very sory to use > this words) people believe buddha could activate or use over 70% of > brain cells comparing to the amount of less than 5% used by even a > scientist. if this kind of a brain made him to see whole doctrine by > means of mind only? any body who totally calm their mind may start to > see this same world as shown by the buddha. .... S: No one can ever develop the same mind knowledge as the Buddha. These powers of concentration and wisdom had to be developed over millions of lifetimes. I don't think we should be concerned with details of scientific brain cells, but we can test out that when there is more awareness developed at the present moment in our ordinary lives, there can also be more understanding of what our present experiences are. .... > > my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. > Couls we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? ... S: We can learn more about a kind of rebirth even now as we talk. Isn't there a birth of new experiences at each moment? This is how it will continue to be at the end of life. So it always comes back to understanding more about the mind and the physical elements at the present moment. ... > > again sory for this posting, iam asking because this thoughts preven > me from taking big step in life.. ... S: Please explain more. You may also like to read messages in 'Useful Posts' in the files section under the headings of 'New to the list and new to Buddhism' and 'Abhidhamma for beginners'. Please ask any questions on any of the posts you read. Metta, Sarah *Please would you kindly sign off with your (preferably real) name so that we know whom to address. Also please make it clear whom you are addressing, even if it's 'all'. ========== 47127 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] greetings from Rob Ep sarahprocter... Dear Nina, yes, thank you too. I often think of Rob Ep and our marathon discussions:).It's kind of you to remind him that we're all still here talking and waiting for him.... Metta, Sarah --- upasaka@... wrote: >> Thanks for forwarding this! Should you be writing back to Rob for > the > list, please let him know that it's great to hear from him and that I'm > happy > that things seem to be going well with him! :-) 47128 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > In the recorded talk I mentioned above, A. Sujin says that we want > to go to the left, and to the right. We want to find comfort in > conventional realities, and develop our understanding of ultimate > realities as well. (This second sentence is just my interpretation > what she means by "going right and left." Please correct me if I'm > wrong.) ... S: (I don't remember the particular talk...but let me add a suggestion). Usually we think the solution to our difficulties is to turn left or right. For example, we might think the answer to helping parents is to decide whether to visit, phone or to send a gift. However, whichever way we turn, whichever offering we make or don't make, it's conditioned already....namas and rupas which are anatta -- not self who decides. We may make all sorts of good intentions, as we've discussed before, but it's jsut thinking and we may or may not act as we plan. It always comes back to the understanding of dhammas which are conditioned now as you stress. [others may like to see 'decisions, dilemmas' in U.P.] Metta, Sarah ..... We *can* have it both ways, and do have it both ways, but > ever-so-gradually wisdom will develop in a way that leads us to > follow only the true way, the only way that leads to liberation. But > that will take time. We will love people and suffer for it for many > lifetimes to come, probably. > But in the light of the Buddha's teaching, the suffering will > become easier to let go of as our understanding deepens. 47129 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Sarah, > > It seems to me that any act of differentation, whereby something > > becomes this (khanda) and not that (khanda), is the same act that > > keeps nibbana at bay. If the question "what is happening at the > > present moment" is not at some point put aside, things will keep going > > pretty much the way they have been :-) > ... > S: Would you kindly elaborate. You may be right, but I'm not following > you. > .... == I see no difference in effect between the question "what is happening at the present moment?" and "what is the sensation between the nose and upper lip?" They are leading questions, and they look for and lead to ongoing cycles of existence. There is no need to ask "what is", because "what is" is not open to question, it is real, and gone if you try and grab hold of it. Samsara is the ongoing act of trying to formulate an answer where there is no question. If this is too cryptic, please ask for further clarification. > > from > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html > <...> > > from > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > > > > "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], > > there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being > > no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that > > consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed > > becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed > > becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, > > sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation > > of this entire mass of suffering & stress." > > > > Sorry if the quotes are too long :-) > .... > S: The quotes were fine and these are deep, deep suttas. Please would you > spell out your comments in more detail for me to consider. > ***** There are "things" that lead to becoming, and there are "things" that lead to ceasing. I read the above as being about those things that lead to ceasing. Those things that lead to existence are everywhere, precisely because they lead to more existence. Those things that lead to ceasing are few and far between, because they do lead to ceasing. If there is willingness to dispense with trying to find some reality to investigate then nibbana gets a chance. Kind Regards Herman 47130 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Nina, Han & all)*. Let me join your reflections on the difficult passages by thinking out loud. Thank you all for your posts. When the texts discuss kayanupassana, I understand it refers to awareness of rupas in the body. Does this mean there should be any focus on them? I don’t think so. Sati is anatta and it just depends on this anatta dhamma what is experienced at any moment. Particular rupas are given as examples just like other dhammas such as visible object or feelings or attachment are given in other contexts. So, just now, I was talking about visible object with Larry, but it was just an example. We could just as easily have been using heat or cold as examples. Can we make visible object or heat the object of awareness now? Of course not. Can we even make seeing experience visible object now rather than hearing experience sound? No. As the sutta B.Samahita quoted said, ‘any kind of form whatsoever....feeling etc, whether past, present or future......internal or external...fair or foul...high or low...far or near.....should be seen & understood as it really is......etc’ This is the meaning of the understanding of the khandhas as I see it.....when there is a selection of just a particular kind of dhamma, I don’t see how namas and rupas, let alone khandhas can be clearly understood. It doesn’t help to think along the lines of ‘this one was stressed or discussed in more suttas by the Buddha’. It’s a question of what appears right now without any wishing for it as we read about in the soggy wood simile. And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana through the body-sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. So as soon as the text is referring to vipassana nanas or insights of any kind, it is referring to insights into the true characteristics of these elements – any rupas and any namas appearing only. It is not referring any more to the development of samatha, jhanas and signs of jhanas. Of course it depends entirely on accumulations as to what objects are experienced and known and it depends on the accumulation of wisdom as to whether it’s ready to become detached and to experience dhammas for what they are, to experience the rising and falling away of dhammas and so on. It takes a long time because of all the ignrorance and attachment accumulated as well. No one can stop vipassana nanas arising when the conditions are right either. So we read about aniccanupassana,dukkhanapassana, anattanupassana, norodhanupassana, viraganupassana etc – these are kinds of panna arising. Different aspects of dhammas have to be known before degrees of lobha can be eradicated. So the paragraphs you quoted from the Patisambhidamagga #197-199 refer I think to the principal insights given in Vsm XX,90. (see Connie’s post #46354). ‘Body’ here refers to rupas (in the body) as I explained. In this case (of the one who has attained jhanas with breath as object), after attaining jhanas, the various dhammas have to be understood as Nina and Htoo have explained before, starting with the basic understanding of namas and rupas. So it’s not a set of instructions for following stages of insight or for attaining jhanas with breath as object first. It’s the extremely refined detail of particular processes of cittas which could only be ever known by a Buddha or a select group of his disciples. You asked about the references in the text to ‘...when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising (uppada) etc’. I think this is referring to the following principal insights (quoting from Connie’s post) *Vsm XX,90 - 18 Principal Insights: 1. anniccaa-nupassanaa - abandons perception of permanence 2. dukkhaa-nupassana - abandons perception of pleasure 3. anatta-nupassanaa - ab's percp of self 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa - (disenchantment) abandons delighting 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa - (fading away) abandons lust 6. nirodhaa-n. - (cessation) ab's originating 7. pa.tinissaggaanupassanaa - (relinquishment) ab's grasping: <....> As you wrote: “in the Thai version “The establishment is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge.” is the same as “Sati becomes anupassana-nana.” ..... You asked about eradication. Here I understand we are talking about kinds of wisdom which are realized repeatedly before lokuttara cittas arise and eradicate defilements. A sotapanna will continue to have such insights arising before becoming a sakadagami and so on. Full understanding of abandoning (pahana parinna) starts at the stage of knowledge of bhanga ~naa.na, after the knowledge of the arising and falling away of dhammas and continues up to magga ~naa.na. (I recommend to you and also Lisa, A.Sujin’s ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, translated by Nina, chapters 2-4 under Part 1V ‘The Development of Insight’.) So it all comes back to the understanding of presently arising dhammas. So we read in the Sammohavinodanii (transl as ‘Dispeller of Delusion’, under ‘Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness, 1036: “Furthermore, because of the contemplation [S: i.e knowledge or wisdom] in this body[S: i.e rupas] of the body called the collection of all aspects beginning with the characteristic of impermanence which have been handed down in the Pa.tisambhidaa successively in the passage beginning: ‘He contemplates [it] as impermanent, not as permanent (Ps ii 232), the meaning of ‘contemplating the body in the body’ should be regarded thus, too [S: to be realized directly, conditions permitting, after the tender insights have already been attained]. For this bhikkhu who has entered upon the way of contemplation of the body in the body [S; as an example – ‘any kind of form, feeling etc whatsoever], who contemplates the body by way of the seven contemplations beginning with the contemplation of impermanence; who ‘contemplates [it] as impermanent, not permanent; contemplates [it] as painful, not as pleasant; contemplates [it] as non-self, not as self; feels revulsion, does not delight; he causes fading away [of greed], does not inflame it; he causes cessation, does not arouse; he relinquishes, does not cling’ (Ps ii 232) [S; all of course to be understood as referring to conditioned cittas and cetasikas only]. It should be understood that ‘contemplating [it] as impermanent, he abandons the perception of permanence.....pleasure......abandons the perception of self; feeling revulsion, he abandons delight; [his greed] fading away, he abandons greed; causing cessation [S: nirodheti, I understand he realizes the uselessness of nama and rupa, turns away from them, detached towards release], he abandons arousing; relinquishing, he abandons clinging’ (Ps ii232)”.[S: having realized the characteristics of conditioned dhammas, he sees no haven in them of any kind and completely beyond any control. The insight leads to the realization of the unconditioned dhamma]. ..... As I mentioned before, in the conclusion to this chapter in the Sammohavinodani, it stresses that with regard to the 4 satipatthanas, ‘in the prior stage they are obtained in different conscious moments. For by one consciousness only he lays hold of the body [S: rupas in the body]; by another, feelings; by another, mind; by another he lays hold of mental objects [S: dhammas]’. In other words, any form, feeling etc whatsoever that is experienced can be the object of satipatthana. This has been a great meditation for me, Tep. I’m sure it raises further questions and there will be much you may take issue with. Thanks again for your effort and I’ll be glad of any comments or corrections. Metta, Sarah * I wrote this post a couple of days ago before reading Nina’s and your recent posts, but have been having computer problems, so I delayed posting it. I look f/w to reading your posts I've put aside. ==== 47131 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 A sukinderpal Dear Eznir, I just came back from a holiday. ------------------------------------------ > Old Sukinder: Yes, why this and not another. We can't choose to have > awareness, less so on a particular dhamma. > Eznir: We certainly are choosing one thing or another all the time, whether > we like to sleep, sit, stand or walk, even when we are engaged in > some activity or other. If your answer is 'No we can't choose', then > I request you to hold your breath for *ever*! You will find > yourself 'choosing' to breath before long! I'm sure you'd agree with > me on the fact that we are choosing one thing or another all the time. S> In the example you give as in all conventional examples, the object of the citta is a "story" about self and situations. If there is no awareness of this being just `thinking', then paramattha dhammas are not seen. Cetana is a paramattha dhamma which arises and falls in an instant. When we think we are aware of our intentions, in reality many cittas have arisen and fallen away, each with a different cetana and most likely informed by ignorance. And because of this very ignorance, we go away with the impression that we are in control. And if we then believe that we can control our intentions, then this is wrong view. --------------------------------------------- > Eznir: All the time, we are engaged in some duty of our choosing. This duty > may be looking after our children, cooking at home or even simply > doing nothing! Whatever the activity that we are engaged in we are > mindful of it. If not we cannot perform that activity properly. If we > are taking a stroll in a busy street, we are mindful of it. If not we > might meet with an accident, although we may be thinking of something > else while walking! S> And we are never aware of what motivates these apparent choices. And if we have not heard the Buddha's teachings, we will most likely then interpret our experiences wrongly, i.e. wrong view. We will take to be what is not mindfulness to be so. Lobha, craving, is more than enough to assure our survival, which is how samsara perpetuates. ;-) ---------------------------------------- > Eznir: The degree of this mindfulness is a different matter. If we take a > stroll with a romantic notion in mind, then we would be thinking > likewise during the walk. If we take a walk as an exercise after > dinner, then that would be its outcome. If we take a walk with the > intention of doing walking meditation then that too would be its end > result. S> :-) I see the second example (exercise) as the one safest from wrong view. But this is again thinking in terms of situations and here is where one should be wary about `self view' creeping in. Do you see how your last example, i.e. walking meditation, is the one most likely to be conditioned by wrong view? ------------------------------------------- > Eznir: In each of these cases we have to choose, the intended purpose of our > walk. S> We will make choices as per our accumulations. And yes, living in the conventional world, we do have to make choices, otherwise we can't function. But Dhamma is not about conventional situations and practices, but about realities conditioning our experience of these conventional situations and ideas about them. Thinking is never a problem, what one needs to correct is the interpretation of experiences. If we think that we need to "do" this or that to develop sati and panna, then the problem is in the view underlying such a thought. Thinking about avoiding the oncoming traffic is common sense. However when it comes to Dhamma and idea of practice, then knowing thinking as just thinking is the way to go. But instead most people are taken in by the `idea' of a better time, place and activity, and this is not dhamma, but a story about it, informed by lobha and ditthi. ------------------------------------------- > Eznir: Awareness just doesn't simply drop in from the sky, one has got > to cultivate it. In this way we can choose to be mindful so that > awareness, even on a particular dhamma, would develop. S> An actor may appear to be in control of his or her mental states, i.e. he can cry, laugh, express anger etc. very readily. But this is because he has accumulated so much tendency to akusala, that the citta can take any signs and details of sense and mind objects, that through verbal and body, these can be expressed unhindered and almost unlimitedly. Were he to have a genuine moment of satipatthana, do you think that he would not see the vast difference between those moments and this? No, awareness does not `simply drop in from the sky' and yes, `one has got to cultivate it'. But this cultivation is not got from a `self' doing and does not involve the kind of mindfulness as in the conventional examples you have given above. The kind of mindfulness that real satipatthana is, has the effect of showing how `wrong' those other kinds are, including `walking' and `sitting' meditation. Associated with this is the knowledge about the right cause for the right result and recognizing with better understanding wrong view and wrong practices. Pariyatti is seen with greater confidence as being the necessary precondition for patipatti. And when wrong practice is seen as wrong, one is not disturbed by the fact that real practice happens so rarely. Better be patient about one's accumulations than to be lured by lobha with wrong view into following wrong practices. And I believe the following is one such idea; "We can choose to be mindful so that awareness, even on a particular dhamma, would develop". Along with the understanding of any particular dhamma, comes the knowledge that dhammas arise by a complexity of conditions. When one is focused on being `mindful', this aspect of dhammas will never become apparent, because the `self' covers it. I believe also that the more one follows a practice which encourages the idea of `self' and `control', then the possibility of the correct understanding of `anatta', even intellectually, becomes more and more remote. And obviously, so too the understanding of anicca, dukkha and most of Dhamma. Must go now, will continue tomorrow. Metta, Sukinder 47132 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Sutta sarahprocter... Hi James & all, [Mahasihanada Sutta, DN8, quotes from Walshe transl] --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: I particularly like the description of the two kinds of > asceticism in the sutta and how we cannot tell by lifetsyles of > mortification and harsh asceticism about the development of wisdom and > whether someone is really 'an ascetic' in the deeper sense. > > James: Why do you particularly like this description? .... S: Because of the stress again on the fact that it's not the lifestyle itself, but the wisdom and development of the path that counts: "The situation occurs, Kassapa, that I see one practiser of mortification.....at the breaking-uo of the body, in a place of woe, a baleful state, a place of destruction, in hell. Again, I see one practiser of mortification.....arising after death in a good place, a heavenly state. Again, I see one who practises little austerity....arising in a state of woe...Again, I see one who practises little austerity.....arising after death in a good place, a heavenly state. Since I can see as it is the arising, the destiny, the death and re-arising of those ascetics, how could I disapprove of all austerities, and censure and blame all those who lead a harsh life of self-mortification?" later "Kassapa, there is a path, there is a course of training, whereby one who has followed it will know and see for himself: 'The ascetic Gotama speaks at the proper time, what is true, to the point - the Dhamma and the discipline.' What is this path.....? ....the Noble Eightfold Path...." .... >What does it > mean to you and your life? .... S: It's a reminder to not judge by outer appearances....similar to the message I mentioned in other suttas with regard to living alone whether in the city or forest. Another quote: "... 'It is hard to understand an ascetic or a Brahmin.' But, Kassapa, when a monk develops non-enmity, non-ill-will and a heart full of loving-kindness and, abandoning the corruptions, realises and dwells in the uncorrupted deliverance of mind, the deliverance through wisdom, having realised it in this very life by his own insight, then, Kassapa, that monk is called an ascetic and a Brahmin." .... >Where do you see yourself in this > description? Do you see yourself as an ascetic and a Brahmin > according to the Buddha's description? If so, why? If not, why not? > (I'm looking for a deeper and personal reaction to the sutta. It > could be helpful for everyone.) .... S: to be honest, I'm not sure that I see myself or think about myself when I read descriptions. I think that when there are moments of understanding and other wholesome states, however weak, we are learning to become an ascetic and a Brahmin. When there's ignorance, however, (most the time), then we forget all about what really matters in life. When there are moments of wrong view arising, we assume importance in aspects of life or practice (e.g asceticism/non-asceticism) which are of no importance at all. As I mentioned to Tep, much of the Sammanaphala Sutta is repeated in the second half of this sutta, but I haven't re-read this part. I was just struck by the first few paragraphs this time and am grateful for your selection. Do you have any further comments yourself? Does anyone else have a sutta they've selected to share with us? Metta, Sarah ======== 47133 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for your timely response. I just wanted to make a comparison between your approach to the dhamma and my approach, because I can see that they are quite different (almost completely opposite as a matter of fact). I am just going to make some observations without drawing any concrete conclusions: Sarah: to be honest, I'm not sure that I see myself or think about myself when I read descriptions. James: Thanks for being frank. I wonder if your approach is better or if a more personalized approach is better (such as I follow). You see, when I read a description I always try to evaluate where I might fall in that description. Then, I know what I have accomplished and what more needs to be accomplished (or what I am unsure about). It seems to me that your approach is more academic and philosophical- like 'this is quite interesting and good to know but it doesn't necessarily apply to me." It is no wonder that you don't see a 'practice' within Buddhism other than study, because nothing in the dhamma applies to you directly within your mode of thinking. Sarah: I think that when there are moments of understanding and other wholesome states, however weak, we are learning to become an ascetic and a Brahmin. James: First, I notice how quickly you change from a personalized view to a general view. I didn't ask anything about other people, only you. Yet, you cannot seem to talk about yourself as an individual without including everyone in the description (remember my past observations about your use of the royal "we" when referring to yourself? ;-). Secondly, you use the term 'learning' to relate to the process of becoming an ascetic and a Brahmin. Does one really learn to become enlightened? Is learning a part of the Noble Eightfold Path? Or is it more an 'unlearning' of unskillful thoughts and habits? Personally, I view the process to enlightenment as unlearning more than learning- this is another thing which separates our approaches. Sarah: When there's ignorance, however, (most the time), then we forget all about what really matters in life. When there are moments of wrong view arising, we assume importance in aspects of life or practice (e.g asceticism/non-asceticism) which are of no importance at all. James: Again, you are talking in a generalized way about everyone when I asked you only about yourself. Of what you have written, I agree and disagree with it- it depends on who we are talking about. Just as the Buddha said in DN 8, it is not possible to generalize to all people when it comes to the dhamma, and yet you seem to be generalizing to all people. This is why I cannot relate to much of what you explain. I'm just thinking outloud; I haven't reached any firm conclusions. Metta, James 47135 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:16am Subject: The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Wise Company gives good Advantage: The blessed Buddha on Noble Friendship: I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love & one who always delight in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, and make it immovable and unshakable. I develop these divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. AN II 72 A friend who always lends a hand, a friend both in sorrow and joy, a friend who offers good counsel, a friend who sympathizes too. These are the four kinds of true friends: one who is wise, having understood, will always cherish and serve such friends just as a mother tends her only child. DN III, 188 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived on the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 And how does a bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on seeing a dearly favourite person! Even so do he extend loving-kindness to all beings in all directions, as above so below. Abhidhamma Pitaka: Appamañña-vibhanga Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance such release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... Itivuttaka 27 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello from Toronto nilovg Hello Tom H, Welcome here. It is always a good idea to ask questions, any time. Nina. op 29-06-2005 18:34 schreef hudchinson op tomanderson@...: > Hello from Toronto, in Canada > OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal > sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles > over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a > Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. 47137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Larry, op 30-06-2005 05:49 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas > which are prompted." L: Does this mean sloth and torpor resist the prompt? ------- N: As we have seen, kusala cittas and akusala cittas (but not all) can be without prompting or prompted. I quote: The Co. to the ³Abhidhamattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 15) explains unprompted as And it explains prompted as . Unprompted: no hesitation. It is similar in the case of akusala cittas rooted in attachment. Unprompted and prompted tells us something about the nature of the cittas. It is understandable that sloth and torpor if they arise, accompany cittas that are not active, sluggish. ----- L:I am prompting myself > to wash the dishes but nothing is happening. But that would mean washing > the dishes is akusala. Is that right??? ----------- N: You are speaking of a whole situation, a time during which countless cittas arise ands fall away. There are not akusala cittas rooted in lobha and dosa all the time, there may be many cittas that have moha as their only root and of these it is not said that they are prompted or unprompted. Besides, you may be meditating on the Abhidhamma while washing the dishes with kusala cittas. ***** L: Also, I was interested in the difference between self-view and conceit > so I looked-up self-view in the Buddhist Dictionary (below). It seems > that self-view is defining oneself in relation to one of the khandhas. Quotes: > sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', .... There are 20 kinds > of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that > belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) ------ N: This is explained by Ven. B.B. in 'The Root of Existence' (p. 9) Co to the Muulapariyaaya sutta: here it is formulated slightly differently: 1: the ego is identified directly with them 2:or seen as their possessor 3; as their container 4 as their inner nucleus. The Expositor: II, p. 456, illustrates this with similes. 1: just as the flame of a lamp and the colour of the flame, they are one. 2: as having matter, as a tree has a shadow. 3: taking the immaterial to be the self, he views matter as in the self, like scent in a flower. 4. taking the immaterial to be the self, he sees the self as in matter, like a gem in a casket. **** Nina. 47138 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Commentary to the Path of Discrimination. nilovg Dear friends, The Commentary to the Path of Discrimination, the Saddhammappakaasinii: explains that the yogi who has transcended doubt while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and soullessness, to the mind and body together with the conditions. This is similar to the Co to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta (the Way of mindfulness). But the Saddhammappakaasinii elaborates more on the stages of vipassana: the yogi has to overcome the imperfections (upakilesa) of vipassanaa, beginning with illumination (obhaasa). The Co. then explains that he realizes the stage of vipassanaa that is the arising and falling away of naama and ruupa, the stage that is seeing the danger of them, etc. and then he realizes the four successive stages of enlightenment. He is worthy of the greatest honour in the world of men and devas. The Co. states that the development of anapanasati samaadhi, beginning with the counting of the inbreaths and outbreaths finds its accomplishment in vipassanaa. ***** The text of the Path of Discrimination, § 197: 4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). ** The Co explains more about viraaga, nirodha and patinissaga. Viraaga: detachment, there are two meanings: the vanishing and dissolution of conditioned dhammas and nibbåna. It states that contemplation of viraaga (viraaganupassanaa) refers to vipassanaa and magga by means of which those two meanings are realized. Nirodha, extinction is explained in the same way. Viraaganupassanaa and nirodanupassanaa are among the eighteen principal stages of vipassanaa. As to relinquisment, this also has two meanings as we have seen. As we see more often, the Co. has several methods of explaining terms. It states: aniccanupassanaa refers to tender insight and viraaganupassanaa refers to principal insight. The latter has more strength. As to contemplation of relinquishment, this refers to vipassana that has become very powerful, it is near enlightenment, near the arising of magga-citta. ***** Nina. 47139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? nilovg Hi Avinduandura, In understanding the different consciousnesses that change at each moment and succeed one another, you come to understand yourself and this life. When understanding of the present moment is fully developed nibbana can be attained and then doubt about the future is also eradicated. This is a long process. We should first discuss what is real at this moment. Nina. op 29-06-2005 17:17 schreef avinduandura op avinduandura@...: > my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. > Could we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? 47140 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > .... > > are you going to take a look at the response i posted to 'discipline' > > or at least the area where i try to see if we cant get some > > correlation in our intentions before re-starting studying abhidhamma, > > what approach to take, etc? > .... > S: The main differences as I see it are, arising just from this post of > yours: > > a) you are 'trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 lives', > trying to avoid any behaviour which you think is inconsistent with how you > imagine a sotapanna would live No. That just came to mind. The discipline I am talking about is basically the lower part of the 'gradual training.' That is, engaging onesself in a spiritual discipline, according to the doctrine. For example (one among many), DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, we read about the moralities the practitioner undertakes under the heading: (The Lesser Section on Virtue) We read that one puts down sword and stick, not harming any living being, being compassionate, one abandons stealing, taking only what is given, one abandons all types of wrong speech and speaks meaningful, helpful, kind words. All of this adds up to a discipline that one can follow in their life. It is something I have deviated some from, due to conditions from within and without, -however-, when one reads the sutta on advice to laypeople, Sigolavada Sutta, DN20, how the four quarters are covered in a particular discipline for the laymen who wants to live a life at peace with his coworkers, friends, and family, and be 'good,' even resulting in a heavenly rebirth. We can follow this code of discipline to create peace with our family and so on, even if we do not want the heavenly rebirth. For example, as has been suggested, I have read some of the Talmud as a first step in carrying out the family tradition (Judaism), and this new, freshness, especially the parts on virtue, really let me see how I could be disciplined from all angles. It's a way of life. This is what I once had with the dharma, only the discipline was somewhat different, and now, I need some new freshness in to really be *in* that discipline, to open up all the doors and act in a good manner. To help you understand, for example, during the Northeast blackout a few years back, my father was coming into the hallway and speaking about the previous blackout some decades ago, and it was just a piece of idle chatter. I knew that idle chatter just leads to suffering, so I let it be and did not engage him. With the laypersons code of discipline, I might try to rectify the relationship further by carrying out the family tradition, helping him out when he neds help, basically creating a more proper father-son relationship, having him think of me less as a 'friend,' which he has called me in the past. There are also academic disciplines, and probably even some more that I can't think of off the top of my head. It's a way of molding one's behavior to a certain ideal and not just noticing this or that in an undisciplined life. > ... > On the other hand, I'm not interested in any kind of 'imitation', but > rather in knowing the present tendencies and dhammas arising. > ***** > b) as you admit, you 'force practise' > .... > S: On the other hand, I see this as Self-pursuit > ***** > c) You have the idea that you can choose to 'walk away' and 'pursue "deeds > of merit" ' > ... > S: Again, I see this as a lack of confidence in understanding conditioned > dhammas and the strong idea of 'control' as leading to many of your > difficulties. I think you mentioned that the serious problems only started > after your interest in Buddhism began. Serious problems in practising Buddhism began after my honeymoon ended. If I follow the teachings correctly, as I have in the past, (will I be able in the future?) problems can fade away. I felt established in the discipline even as recently as two nights ago, walking home to my house with a friend, but when I got home I did not know how what was proper to do on the computer.. the part about entering jhanas or bringing mindfulness to the fore, would be very difficult for me as I've not been able to meditate well since a time in the not so distant past. But the rest was there. I'm telling you, discipline is good! > ***** > d) I think you see 'discipline' and 'self-discipline' very much in terms > of particular activities you pursue (or don't pursue) > ... > S: Whereas I see them very much in terms of very momentary cittas and > cetasikas, regardless of the activity at the time. Kusala and refraining > from akusala can arise anywhere, anytime -- even whilst having fun with > your friends. OK. I'm still interesting in knowing cetasikas no matter what my lifestyle. If I decide seeking a greater happiness is better for me than trying to have some 'fun' with my friends, I would still like to know them, and it should make no difference. > .... > e) in brief, there are lots of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in the way you > see the practise and discipline. > ... > S: Again, I think that when we appreciate the complexity of conditions a > little more (even in theory), we can see why the present dhammas have to > be as they are and not another way. The Abhidhamma really helps a lot in > daily life. > > Pls let me know whether we are getting any 'corelation in our intentions' > here and any comments you have on our approaches to re-starting our > Abhidhamma studies. Any further questions or clarifications needed? Well, I guess the first question I should ask is, how are we only aware of one reality at a time, as they arise, if all realities are constantly arising and falling? Is it simply because citta can only know one object at a time, or is it because we have to wait for some object of consciousness to become 'prominent?' And if so, how/why does this occur? > **** > > > > if not just let me know, this week may be a turning point in my life > > and i'm not sure how i'm going to fit my practise into it, or for that > > sake the discipline at all. > > let me know. > > pz, > ... > S: Please tell us about it. It sounds interesting and maybe good > indications that your life is slowly returning to 'normal'??? As your > understanding in the Dhamma grows, you'll find the practise and discipline > fit into your daily life more and more easily, regardless of the > activities you are following. How is the computer programming going? > Perhaps you have a job? > > Let me know how we're doing here. I've gotten a book on Linux Kernel Development (title is the same), and am doing fairly well with that. It seems the material is not too difficult for me, it's just a matter of reading it properly and within a healthy mindset. I also have a (very) late book, I haven't returned to my school's library (I'm not enrolled right now, FYI, but I may go back in the future) known commonly as the 'dinosaur book' because it has dinosaurs on the cover. It is about operating systems design and is widely regarded as a good title. I'd like to get back into programming, and it seems a new avenue has opened up and may allow me to do so. Further, I feel even if I want to 'let go' of the spiritual aspect of life for now, and get back to my old interests, the spiritual aspects of my life still become prominent and it would behoove me to tend to them, try to create some kind of balance. Like an earlier thread wrote, the Buddha's teachings go against the grain, so I should still try not to get very enmeshed in worldly life, but be mindful of realities without their worldly context when possible. I can't think of any good examples of this, besides maybe abstaining from idle chatter sometimes, and eventually, when I feel more comfortable with it, being mindful of all daily activities and carrying meditation with me throughout the day. Sorry for the long delay before the reply. Be well, Sarah. -A.L. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 47141 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Al, > > Also, is this extract I posted the other day from 'Cetasikas' relevant to > our discussion on 'Discipline' and intentions for study, would you say? > ..... > >Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] > > Right understanding of the danger and ill effects of akusala can > condition kusala citta. But shortly after the kusala cittas have > fallen away, akusala cittas tend to arise again and at such moments > we have no confidence in wholesomeness. We may, for example, > speak harsh words to someone else and when the moments of > anger have fallen away, we cannot understand that we behaved > in such a bad way. We may wonder how we can be such a > different person at different moments. > > In reality there is no self who is at one moment kusala and at another > moment akusala. There are different types of citta which arise because of > their own conditions. Sometimes kusala citta arises but more often akusala > citta arises. There is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala > citta.< What about sila, dana, and bhavana, and the ten wholesome actions? Can't we look to practise these to create more wholesomeness for our welfare and happiness, at the same time as we try to understand akusala? Peace, A.L. > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 47142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries nilovg Hi Tep, perhaps some Q were answered already in my last post by the commentaries. op 29-06-2005 01:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:> > Tep: Do you personally believe that the examination of the body (rupa) > through "thinking" such and such <.. ... 'Supported by what is respiration? > Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the coarse body > [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four Great Primaries > etc.. ...> can be done alone without having to first "emerge from the > absorption"? If so, would that kind of "thinking" lead the 'assasapassasa > kammika' toward the various insight knowledges as described in the > Breathing Treatise, and toward arahantship as stated by the Co.? _____ N: Not by thinking, but by insight. The yogavacara develops jhana, emerges and then develops insight. --------- T:I ask > this question because you yourself have rejected the necessity of > absorption(jhana) as the basis for wisdom development (to eradicate > asavas). ----------- N: The texts deal with someone who is able to attain jhaana by means of anapanasatisamaadhi. The question whether jhaana is necessary for everybody to become an arahat is another issue. See the many posts in the archives. As I said, for now I prefer to concentrate on the texts of the Patisambhidamagga and its commentary. ------- > Tep: Another part of the Co. is :"The worker in absorption, namely, he who > contemplates upon the factors of absorption, also thinks thus: Supported > by what are these factors of absorption? .... And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while > cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, > suffering and soullessness, to the mind and the body together with > conditions and gradually reaches arahantship". .... This is a standard way for transcending > doubts by means of samatha and vipassana of nama-rupa. ------ N: See the Co I rendered, this text is no problem. Actually, there is the hindrance doubt which is suppressed by samatha, and by insight doubt about nama and rupa is eliminated. NIna. 47143 From: "hudchinson" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution hudchinson --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Tom {Attn. Sarah and Jon} - > > I am delighted to know that in your 36-37 years of continuous meditation > you never missed even a day. That is a perfect record, Tom. Hi, Tep I really sound full of myself, don't I! It really came out all wrong. As for "great" experiences, well, my experiences are quite ordinary, I assure you. The Mahasatipatthana sutta is really important to me, I never cease discovering yet another thing I had missed, so I am very interested in seeing all the parts/comments/vocabulary drawn together. 47144 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Dear Dan, Thanks. You stated, "... I think you are right that to fully discuss conceptions of anatta at the deepest level in two different traditions is beyond any of us. However, considerations at more modest levels is certainly possible, and, I think, of value. " I would agree, but what I meant was: When an individual reaches the level of the presently selfless, in either religion, the development of insight (for that individual) is not an issue, because to reach that level you must already have great insight. And, as for us who are training and learning how to reach that level, it is of great value to explore ... because we still need the insight. What I really was trying to address was Jon saying: {... If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned?} What I was getting at is if the goal is selflessness, and both religions seem to reach it, then we should not be limited/blinded by OUR view of Dharma. ................................................................. You also said: {I've found that at the most superficial levels, Christian and Buddhist thinking is very similar ("Be good"), at less superficial levels they are very divergent ("Salvation through Christ" vs. "Eightfold path"), and at moderate depth they are similar (lobha/moha/dosa as unwholesome roots; anatta, anicca, dukkha of specific dhammas that arise). But at the deepest levels, I sense that they are once again divergent ("salvation" and "enlightenment" are quite distinct). I can't offer anything of value beyond speculation at the deeper levels, and I don't anticipate *pretending* to discuss those issues in any substantial way. [I can see Jon and Sarah objecting strenuously at this point -- "Dan, you silly! Anatta, anicca, dukkha are deep, DEEP, and not 'moderately' deep!" I agree, but they can be known in part before enlightenment.]} I think your comparison is correct. The Eightfold path is about developing peace and an end to suffering. Goodness is only a step, and not an end all. Salvation through Christ has nothing to do with ending suffering. It has more to do with enduring suffering. It tries to empower people to do good, especially under extreme circumstances --- e.g., Jesus on the cross ("Father forgive them because they don't know what they are doing"); all the Apostles were murdered and die unpleasant deaths (I think) yet they held to the principle of Love even your enemies; the early Christians were fed to wild animals, yet more became Christians (refused to change their belief); ... In a nut shell: Christianity is about developing a sense of Universal Love that endures all trials and tribulations. The Apostles stated that they even pray for long periods of suffering. This is the opposite of what Buddhist do or develop (i.e., pray for). So why even bother to compare the two? Maybe you will uncover how one religion can help you succeed at the other. Maybe they compliment each other, so their differences become unimportant. Maybe they will ultimately get you to the same place. We will never know unless we start to compare them, or look at them closely. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 27 June, 2005 07:07 Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > CharlesD > ----- Original Message ----- 47145 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (wasRe:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 dacostacharles Hi Nina, I was commenting on Phillip post that stated: {... I would say that you are going too far by saying that clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insidious, so prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I misunderstand what "views" means.} I miss read his post, I thought he was limiting clinging to covering only views/beliefs. So I was trying to define the term as "not letting go ..." ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 27 June, 2005 10:38 Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (wasRe:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 Hi Charles D, Please could you try again, I did not understand your Q. Is there anything I can help with? Nina. op 26-06-2005 16:53 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > Hi all, > > Just jumping in with out much clue as to what was already said. > > Clinging is not letting go. It does not matter, it could be a belief, an > apple, a feeling, ... > > This does however imply that you are already holding on to what ever it is. 47146 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Touche! Bravo! Encoure, encoure. ksheri3 Hi Herman, Lovely reply, it makes me feel so wonderfully accepted and welcomed as to my odd, out-there, opinions. Thank you sir. Yes, I recognized it during my reply, but luckily I have the adage in my Bat-Belt that: Speed Kills. Thus I was resigned to accept the fault for the misconstruction of the post if, by chance, someone had noticed. I can see I'm in good company. In my "googling" the net I've noticed Nina's name quite prolifically concerning this Buddhism and was getting ready for next wk. to possibly begin chipping away at her concepts of Vipissana, I still look forward to it. Right now I'm taking a break from Abhidhamma in Derrida and I've found William James, The Stream of Consciousness, so I think I'll be a little non-Buddhist this weekend. A friend from Sri Lanka mentioned that taking breaks from profound meditations is a good thing however I already know these things. For instance getting too close to a concept that I lose sight of what it is I'm looking at, or being entangled in many numerous ways to rupa which here I refer to as the trappings manifestations of life, humanity. I look forward to your reply. toodles, colette p.s. please tell Spot that I'll be around about Midnight and maybe have a morsel for him to nibble on. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > It is good to be reading your feedback. Before I respond I might just > ask you to reread your post, because it seems there is some confusion > as to who wrote what. > > I was replying to a section out of Nina's book on Cetasikas, posted in > a series by Sarah. > > My tirade doesn't start until "If the foundation of a building is > flawed, the entire building is unsafe." > > I will reply properly tomorrow. > > Toodles, Ms Adams :-) > > > Herman 47147 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. ksheri3 Hi Nina & Larry, Lets hope this works and I don't make too much of a dolt out of myself. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 30-06-2005 05:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Nina: "and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas > > which are prompted." > > L: Does this mean sloth and torpor resist the prompt? > ------- > N: As we have seen, kusala cittas and akusala cittas (but not all) can be > without prompting or prompted. colette: I've read the definitions over and was wondering where I was going to place this reply. To myself I think we should look at the potentiality for something "outside" of the person being prompted. For instance my take on what's commonly bantied about is that people are doing all the prompting and they're trying to find a way to control what is and is not prompeted. They may see that by chance, yes, I say that chance does play a roll in the existance of sentient beings, that by chance sloth and torpor were prompted already and were arising when by chance, a chance meeting, Larry was met by a tangent perception which he could control after he had come into contact with it. If he never had come into contact with this "sloth or torpor" then the best he could have done would be to influence it such as in making waves so that a pc. of paper floats in a certain direction. The blessing of coming into contact with these negatives is that now he has the ability to manipulate them as he wants to or as he has been conditioned, programmed, to do. ---------- > I quote: > > The Co. to the ³Abhidhamattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 15) explains unprompted as > And it > explains prompted as . > Unprompted: no hesitation. > It is similar in the case of akusala cittas rooted in attachment. Unprompted > and prompted tells us something about the nature of the cittas. > It is understandable that sloth and torpor if they arise, accompany cittas > that are not active, sluggish. sorry but time forces me to leave now. I'm getting greater confidence in being able to interact with someone as up on Buddhism as Nina is. thanx toodles, colette 47148 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Hi Nina and Colette, I still don't get it. Is the meaning that akusala prompting is slothful and torpid? Are all prompted unwholesome consciousnesses slothful and torpid. If I tell Colette to rob a bank, were is the sloth and torpor in that? I don't see how sloth and torpor could be prompted. They seem to arise quite spontaneously for me. Is it that prompted unwholesome activity is perceived to be easy (and therefore slothful) compared to wholesome activity? If I tell Colette to rob a bank the sloth and torpor are mine, not Colette's. If I robbed a bank without any prompting there would be no sloth or torpor. This is very confusing. I am very familiar with sloth and torpor but I don't see the "prompted" aspect. Larry 47149 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Vism.XIV,169 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 169. (26) Those given for the first (22), excepting happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (26). (27)And as with the fifth (26), so with the sixth too (27); but the difference here is promptedness and the inconstant [occurrence] of stiffness-and-torpor. (28) With the seventh (28) should be understood to be associated those given for the fifth (26), except views (xli); but pride (xliv) is inconstant here. (29) With the eighth (29) should be understood to be associated those given for the sixth (27), except views (xli); and here too pride (xliv) is among the inconstant. 47150 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Hi again, Larry: "If I tell Colette to rob a bank the sloth and torpor are mine, not Colette's." L: Sorry, this isn't right. The prompted consciousness is the one that is slothful and torpid, not the prompting consciousness. If a salesman prompts the arising of desire in a customer, that desire is with sloth and torpor. How so? Larry 47151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Tom - Thank you for the reply. I understand your humbleness and appreciate it. Tom: > > The Mahasatipatthana sutta is really important to me, I never cease > discovering yet another thing I had missed, so I am very interested in > seeing all the parts/comments/vocabulary drawn together. Tep: Then you have come to the right place! Especially, Nina's contribution by means of the detailed cross-referenced Commentaries on related subjects should satisfy your heart's desire. Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hudchinson" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Tom {Attn. Sarah and Jon} - > > > > I am delighted to know that in your 36-37 years of continuous > meditation you never missed even a day. That is a perfect record, Tom. > > > Hi, Tep > > I really sound full of myself, don't I! It really came out all wrong. > As for "great" experiences, well, my experiences are quite ordinary, I > assure you. 47152 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:37pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I appreciate your message # 47138 which, I think, is a good complement to the Breathing Treatise. Thank you for writing another message (#47142) to respond to my earlier concerns; I do not have any follow-up questions at this point. Let's work together to fill as many gaps in the Breathing Treatise as possible. We do not have to agree on everything in order to effectively work together, I guess. Sincerely, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > perhaps some Q were answered already in my last post by the commentaries. > 47153 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 B sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Continuing from the last post: --------------------------------------------- > Old Sukinder: My point however was to show the danger of lobha and moha > in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the > Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning > either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is > avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which > can then lead us astray, away from the middle path. > > Eznir: Exactly! All the more reason why we should choose to cultivate > mindfulness and awareness. S> Only with the arising of panna can the right and wrong way be distinguished. The problem is that we take to be sati what is not, and so the path of practice then taken is one that is a reflection of such misconception. --------------------------------------- Eznir: It is only then that with directed thought > and sustained thought we nurture the conditions for panna to arise. > When ever the hindrances that you mentioned above arises one must be > aware that they have arisen. Only then does panna know that it is a > mind with hindrances and how it arose. But why should we know how > hindrances arise? So that panna will know the cause & conditions for > its arising. S> Thinking is only as good as the `understanding' behind it, this is why it is stressed that panna leads the way. Lobha must appear to sati and panna, only then can it be known. We can `think' about it, but this is different from satipatthana, whereas if the thinking is seen with wisdom, then that would be a moment of right practice. Understanding dhamma on the conceptual level is pariyatti; the stress is on "understanding" and not "thinking". And understanding correctly, one does not then go about engaging in practices involving `self' and control. It is when there is thinking about Dhamma without understanding, that there arises an idea about `doing'. ========================================= > Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do arise > all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be > reminded about the moment or we will not. > > Eznir: It is nesessary. Dhammas do arise all the time and to be reminded > about the moment or not, does depend on the inclination of our mind. > Our minds are never in a blank state, all the time it is involved in > some thinking. S> Reminders are necessary; association with wise friends is one such condition for this to happen. And when the mind is inclined towards dhamma as against other matters, then reminders come in from many directions. However, this can happen with all levels of understandings and misunderstandings. So it is one thing to see the value of being reminded and have correct intellectual understanding, but another to remind oneself constantly about what needs to be done. The former can be with the understanding that dhammas are conditioned and beyond control, whereas the latter may be with the idea of self and control. Again I stress `understanding' as against `thinking' about dhamma. > ========================================= > > Sukinder: If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows. > > Eznir: But this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash! They too are > subjected to the "many, many conditions" you mentioned above. These > many many conditons are the inclination of the mind that conditons > alobha and vijja to arise! S> Only panna conditions more panna and this cannot be willed. There can however be the illusion that one is thinking about dhamma regularly and that this is associated with right understanding. If this is the case, then in fact one is going the wrong way. Wrong understanding conditions wrong practice. ========================================= > Sukinder: But their opposites don't and we could do well with > reminders about their being almost perpetually present. > > Eznir: See how you contradict yourself here; you say, "Not necessary to > say, "keep in mind"" that dhammas do arise all the time. But when it > comes to lobha and avijja you say, "we could do well with reminders > about their being almost perpetually present" - that is to *keep in > mind*. They too are dhammas that arise all the time? S> Again, saying, "keep in mind" is different from "understanding" the value of being reminded. To be continued…. Metta, Sukinder 47155 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 C sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Continuation from last post. ------------------------------------- > Sukinder: Here I can't agree. The development of wisdom takes place > only insofar as wisdom *does* arise. It is not a matter of developing > an attitude regardless of this, does it? The gradual elimination of > suffering in any form comes from "knowing", and not from choosing to > pay attention to a particular idea. > > Eznir: The present moment is proped up by many many conditions or thought > processes; just like the previous 'present' moment; and so will the > subsequent 'present' moment. This train of 'present' moments will > give rise to wisdom that accumulates in succession only if the > thought processes that conditoned the intial 'present' moment to this > train, is such, that it strengthens itself with every > passing 'present' moment and that every passing 'present' moment is > consistent and not diversified. S> Earlier you said, "this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash". I think it does. The development of panna is I believe very gradual, so much so that in any lifetime that we hear the Teachings, in that lifetime, panna develops only a fraction more. The level of accumulated panna which can condition the arising of many succeeding moments of satipatthana is one that which is very highly developed. Certainly for those of us still with so much `self view' and ideas about wanting and trying to develop more sati and panna, this can never happen!! As in the simile of the adze handle, I think the development is not easily discernable. But wrong view does project the illusion of result. -------------------------------------------- > Eznir: We choose or intend every moment(I/m sure you'd agree!). S> There is intention with every citta. However if there is an idea of a `self' making choices, this reality of cetana will never be known for what it is. ----------------------------------------- Eznir: If we choose > the breath to be this 'present' moment - in the absence of hindrances > or diversified mind - wisdom is bound to accumulate with every > passing moment! But only if we choose with every moment to be with > the breath! (ie every present moment must be consistent) S> There are hindrances to sati and panna in the sense that when they arise, then more akusala is being accumulated. However there is only one hindrance that actually makes us take the wrong path, and this is miccha ditthi. I believe such ideas as taking an object (for e.g. breath) with the idea that the hindrances would not then come in the way of development, is I believe a manifestation of this `one' hindrance. Akusala are and must be equally the object of any level of sati and panna. We must accept in the beginning that this would be mostly on the intellectual level. And any awareness of realities would be weak and in flashes, and that this could be of any kusala or akusala dhamma. > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: So with equanimity, the kind that is worth seeking, comes > from "knowing". And this wisdom that `knows', doesn't mind what the > present citta is, kusala or akusala. So I think you are not really > talking about panna here. > > Eznir: This wisdom that knows, do mind what the present citta is! This is > mindfulness and awareness. That's how this wisdom knows how things > arise, their cause & condition, and how they will not arise again. S> Why would panna mind when it knows that whatever it is is conditioned? Only ambition and wrong view makes judgements I think. Knowing the value of kusala and the danger of akusala in principle is not the same as making a judgement about an experience which is anatta. > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: And that would be repeated reminders about Dhamma and the > fact that it is all about understanding the present moment. ;-) > > Eznir: As I said before, this present moment doesn't just stand by itself, > but is proped up by many many conditions. And your 'understanding the > present moment' depends on these conditions that this 'present > moment' is proped up with. Every moment is not an independent state > but is dependent on various factors. S> Between every mind door process there are bhavanga and vipaka cittas. Just as lobha, dosa, moha can take in any sign and detail as object, so too sati and panna. We can't predict or estimate the conditions for satipatthana at any given moment. The line of thought you express above, is I think wrong. Because it seems to be built on the idea of only a small set of possible conditions and ignoring the fact of upanissaya paccaya. ------------------------------------------- > Eznir: This is clearly apparent if one reflects on how one gets these bright > ideas! The kind that got Archimedes running naked on the street > shouting 'Eureka! Eureka! or Sir Isaac Newton when he saw the apple > falling! When ever one has been bothered with a problem for some > time; one seem to get the right solution on the spur of the moment, > just like that! This is due to reflective thinking on the problem. S> I think we should be cautious of projecting any ideas about paccaya on to conventional situations. Every wrong interpretation is accompanied by clinging and becomes reinforced. ---------------------------------------- > Eznir: And so when understanding the dhammas that arise in the present > moment. But this is due to *reflexive* thinking. In fact there is no > thinking as such but one just 'knows'. Much like intuition, This is > wisdom. But this wisdom didn't just arise, but was proped up by an > edifice of thought that had pre-occupied the mind during the many > many moments just prior to this present moment when wisdom arose! S> I am glad that you make a distinction between `thinking' and `knowing with wisdom'. However I don't think that your understanding of how wisdom is developed is correct. To continue in next post. Metta, Sukinder 47156 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 D sukinderpal Dear Eznir, This is the remaining part; ------------------------------------- > Old Sukinder: Yes, I contend this. The clear understanding of particular > characteristics of dhammas, are built upon the foundation of > understanding them as dhatus, and clearly distinguishing between nama > and rupa. > > Eznir: "The clear understanding of particular characteristic of dhammas that > are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus" is > direct seeing. Direct seeing is by necessity beyond thinking and > hence clearly distinguishes between nama & rupa. S> Yes. But I'm not sure of your meaning in the last sentence. I forgot the context of my remark, but I want to point out here, the importance of going slowly and not overreaching even when we think at the level of pariyatti. I often hear people say to the effect that the goal is to know the `Tilakkhana' or that the Buddha taught only "Dukkha and ending of Dukkha". This is expressed in such a way that the importance of understanding nama and rupa is ignored or overlooked. Such thinking then proliferates into trying to observe the Tilakkhana in conventional realities and/or Dukkha in conventional experiences. And I think this is wrong. -------------------------------------- > Eznir: Understanding is with nama & rupa, whereas direct seeing is nama & rupa. S> ??? Please explain. > ========================================= > > Old Sukinder: Our understanding of feelings, perception, intention and so > on is hazy and conceptual, which is far from what they are in the > ultimate sense. > > Eznir: Our 'understanding' of things in an ultimate sense is by necessity > conceptual since it involves thinking and hence far from what they > are in an ultimate sense. When we understand something and come to > say that we know this or that, the consciousness that subsequently > arises is with nama & rupa. S> Again…??? > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: If we attempt to understand them in experience without > first having a clear understanding on the intellectual level, then we > are only going to have yet another hazy view. But the results of > deliberate looking *will* be there, which we will then take for real > knowledge. You can have discussions and in the process refine > and correct your intellectual understanding, but nothing more. > > Eznir: I think one must distinguish the essential difference between what is > understanding and what is direct seeing. S> Could you express your own understanding on this here? > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: The five precepts are only `ideas' which become real only > when there is an opportunity for restraint. > > Eznir: If one is not mindful of the 5 precepts these opportunities for > restraint are missed, hence the purpose of these 5 precepts! And so > with the 8 or 10 precepts, they give a greater opportunity to develop > one's mindfulness. S> I like the idea that the precepts are `training rules'. The understanding of these can and must be developed gradually. And like any other part of the Teachings, it is the understanding on the conceptual level that we start with. The Sotapana no more has the conditions to break the precepts, but only increased understanding led to that. But the Sotapana keeps only the 5 precepts perfectly, but do you notice that many putthujanas strive without understanding at keeping 8 or 10 precepts? I think this is what happens when we become too concerned about `doing'. One should be more concerned about developing understanding of realities and not any idea about specific actions to take. As understanding develops, so too will the moments of `following' the precepts. ----------------------------------------------- Eznir: Need we say more of the 227 patimokka sila kept by > the Sangha! Vinaya is the backbone of the Sangha, which in turn is > the Dhamma in practice. S> Here I think not only understanding is important, but also accumulations to lead the kind of life should be taken into consideration. ------------------------------------- > Eznir: Shall continue when time permits! S> Look forward to it. Metta, Sukinder 47157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Larry and Colette, op 01-07-2005 02:33 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > I still don't get it. Is the meaning that akusala prompting is slothful > and torpid? Are all prompted unwholesome consciousnesses slothful and > torpid. ------- N: No. Not all akusala cittas. We should not think of the conventional meaning of prompting, this may be confusing. It can help to a certain extent but not completely. I shall try to explain again: first kusala citta that is unprompted and prompted, then akusala citta that is unprompted and prompted, and finally sloth and torpor which may or may not accompany akusala citta that is prompted. ****** Kusala citta with strong confidence in the benefit of kusala arises spontaneously when there is an occasion of, for example, giving. There is no hesitation. It is unprompted. It may also happen that one has accumulated stinginess and does not give so readily. But still, one gives but not as wholeheartedly as in the former case. Prompted kusala citta. There is a degree of kusala here. We have to consider the nature of the kusala citta in order to understand the difference. ******* In the case of akusala cittas: akusala citta rooted in lobha that is unprompted: you cling immediately to a delicious flavour. akusala citta rooted in dosa that is unprompted: you dislike immediately orange flavour (I remember your aversion). Akusala citta rooted in lobha that is prompted: someone else tells you:oranges are healthy, there are vitamins, try it, and then you learn to eat oranges. You start to like it after all. akusala citta rooted in dosa that is prompted: you start to dislike someone else after you have been told of his bad conduct. The urging can be done by oneself or someone else. But this does not explain the nature of the akusala citta fully. If we think of the nature of the citta being active or more passive, it may help to see the difference. ****** Now sloth and torpor. We learn that they remove energy for kusala, that they cause mental unwieldiness, paralysis. They do not arise with each akusala citta, but if they arise, they arise with cittas that are prompted, that are not active but more passive. For example, when you wake up, you know that there is work to do, some kusala activities, such as typing Visuddhimagga texts. But you are attached to the ease of bed and do not get up at once. At such moments sloth and torpor may arise together with citta rooted in attachment that is prompted, that is more passive and sluggish. You do not have to think of urging by yourself or others, but rather: consider the nature of the citta that is sluggish, passive, unwieldy. It is hard to know the characteristics of sloth and torpor precisely. Perhaps this may answer your questions. -------- If I tell Colette to rob a bank, .... The prompted consciousness is the one that > is slothful and torpid, not the prompting consciousness. If a salesman > prompts the arising of desire in a customer, that desire is with sloth > and torpor. How so? N: It may be clearer now that prompted desire does not have to be accompanied by sloth and torpor. Nina. 47158 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 3:47am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 236 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] The two cetasikas shamelessness and recklessness seem to be very close in meaning, but they have different characteristics. Shamelessness does not shrink from evil because it is not ashamed of it and does not abhor it. The “Paramattha Mañjúså” compares it to a domestic pig which does not abhor filth. Defilements are like filth, they are unclean, impure. Shamelessness does not abhor defilements, be it attachment, aversion, ignorance, avarice, jealousy, conceit or any other kind of unwholesomeness. As to recklessness, it does not abhor, draw back from evil because it does not see the danger of akusala and it does not fear its consequences such as an unhappy rebirth. The “Paramattha Mañjúså” compares recklessness to a moth which is attracted to the fire, although this is dangerous for it. Are we enslaved by pleasant experiences? We may even commit evil through body, speech or mind on account of them. Then recklessness does not fear the danger of akusala, it does not care about the consequences of akusala. The proximate cause of shamelessness is lack of respect for oneself and the proximate cause of recklessness is lack of respect for someone else. In order to have more understanding of this, we should first study their opposites: moral shame, hiri, and moral fear of blame, ottappa. Shame has a subjective origin, it is influenced by oneself; its proximate cause is self-respect. Fear of blame has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is respect for someone else. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47159 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Colette, Now, where were we? :-) > > If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is > unsafe. > > > > "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote > > quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. > > colette: I disagree! Quantity is a property of experience since > numbers denote quantity I can say that x% of my life has been devoted > to the study of...? <...> > ---------------- Fair enough. When you're thinking about numbers that's whats happening. What I should have said is that quantity is not a property of anything other than thinking. Now, I'm saying that, hoping that you'll agree that quantity doesn't play a role with seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting. The difference between these five senses and thinking is that thinking is learnt and the others are not. > > To apply quantity > > to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. > > colette: do you mean to equate yourself to Paris Hilton? Man, when > you step on toes you sure know where to be steppin'. > > Thanks for the compliment, and mind your feet :-) > > > Further, to objectify > > consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an > arbitrary > > state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. > > > > In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of > > experience. > > colette: I'll send the re-possessing agents over to your home > immediately! You obviously lied on every document you signed from the > time you became 18 years of age since you have no accumulation of > knowledge, experience. Since you have no knowledge and experience now > and according to the above theory, you never did and never will, You > therefore are taking all for yourself from myself and you have > already capitulated whereas I am not going to go quietly. <.....> > > The ways one can think about and pigeonhole what is experienced through the 5 senses is pretty well unlimited. Having said that, the meanings folks attribute to what they experience are pretty well set in concrete before they reach age 10, and not likely to change much over a lifetime. Thinking about experience as discrete, microscopic mini-experiences with fixed and identifiable properties is certainly possible. But that is only thinking, and thinking about what is experienced is on a different level than the experience itself. The meanings I attribute to what is experienced through the five senses have no necessary connection to that experience. Put ten people in a room with Paris Hilton, and you'll end up with 10 different acounts of what Paris Hilton is. And what is experienced when there is no attribution of meaning? No thinking about it? Is experience one without thinking it is one? Is experience many without thinking it is many? > > In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, > > atomic experiencelets. > > > > I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework > > whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about > > which is what, the framework and the reality. > > colette: how can a framework exist since you do not recognize > anything as reality, in fact you reject all applications of > manifestation to reality. Boy, and I thought I was spacey some > times! ;)) I have found it helpful for myself to identify thinking. When I know I'm thinking, I know I can stop thinking. Sometimes I do. Invariably, thinking starts again. Oh well :-) Yeah, I reckon you're spacey too :-) Kind Regards from Me and You and a dog named Spot > > With Iddhividha, > colette 47160 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 3:47am Subject: The Skin: Name & Fame ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Sliced by Gains, Praise, Respect, Honour and Fame: At Savatthi, the blessed Buddha said: Friends, horrible are gains honour, fame, name and praise! It is as if they cut through the outer skin, then through the inner skin, then through the flesh, then through the sinews, then right through to the bone! Having cut through the bone, they slice the marrow itself... So terrible indeed friends, are gains, honour, fame, name and praise... They are as if splattering pig bile over a mad dogs nose, bitter, vile, wicked, tricky, obstructive to achieving this incomparable security from domination...!!! Friends, I have known of a certain person here whose mind I penetrated with my own mind and thereby realized: This venerable one would not tell a deliberate lie, even for the sake of his own life! Yet, sometime later, I see him telling a deliberate lie, because his mind was overwhelmed & obsessed by gains, honour, fame, name & praise... So destructive, friends, are gains, honour, fame, name and praise, so bitter, so vile & blocking any achievement of matchless security from bondage!!! Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'We will leave behind any arisen gain, honour, fame, name & praise and we will not let any arisen gain, honour, fame, name and praise remain obsessing & consuming our minds Thus should you train yourselves... !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 238-9 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html PS: Dhamma Videos & Sacred Ancient sites: http://dharmavahini.tv/ Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47161 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, sorry, group, Larry & Sue et al, but now I've gotta face the dragon on my own here. Nina, as par for my habitual behavior, I only read to a certain point and now must spontaneously jump into the frey. I had a different take on what Sue(LBIDD) was asking. To me it seemed as though she is under the impression that all of these akusala's are in a small puddle, like a petri dish, and when we act we raise the entire repetroire of akusalas. In some sense this may be true, in which case I would say that the force of the will, intentions, of the act or action vibrate all the akusalas but the akusalas that are more attuned to the issued vibration are the ones to rise faster or/and farther to the surface of consciousness which we then call Kamma or Karma. As for you Nina, see below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Colette, > op 01-07-2005 02:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > > I still don't get it. Is the meaning that akusala prompting is slothful > > and torpid? Are all prompted unwholesome consciousnesses slothful and > > torpid. > ------- > N: No. Not all akusala cittas. > We should not think of the conventional meaning of prompting, this may be > confusing. It can help to a certain extent but not completely. > I shall try to explain again: first kusala citta that is unprompted and > prompted, then akusala citta that is unprompted and prompted, and finally > sloth and torpor which may or may not accompany akusala citta that is > prompted. > ****** > Kusala citta with strong confidence in the benefit of kusala arises > spontaneously when there is an occasion of, for example, giving. There is no > hesitation. colette: you speak of "Doubt" since hesitation implies a tinge, the presence of UNCERTAINTY, question. Have you taken many martial classes before, my dear? Notice the interplay between kusala and akusala. Each is in their own respect with their own volition. They are stirred, my phraseology, and rise respectively to the inherent volition. Now add the 'spice' of "DOUBT, or "UNCERTAINTY", and consider, ponder, the condition of the kusala or/and akusala after the catalyst of Doubt or Uncertainty has been added to the mix, concoction, conglomeration, corporation. <....> That's all folks. toodles, colette It is unprompted. > It may also happen that one has accumulated stinginess and does not give so > readily. But still, one gives but not as wholeheartedly as in the former > case. Prompted kusala citta. > There is a degree of kusala here. We have to consider the nature of the > kusala citta in order to understand the difference. > ******* <...> 47162 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: greetings from Rob Ep egberdina Hi Nina, If th opportunity arises, please pass on my kind and fond regards to Rob. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, all who know Rob Epstein: > > He said: are all happy! I > will try to come and say hello soon. Nina, I have not yet finished the > book, but > I have it in the hands of someone who is a good editor. I hope to get > suggestions > back soon for improving the structure and putting the final form together. > > > It is taking a long time... > > I hope you are well, and thank you for continuing to think of me. Please > give my > best to everyone.> > > Nina. 47163 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi Sarah and Joop, If you don't mind, I'll persist a bit longer :-) > Hi Herman, [*Evan (&Phil)] > > --- Egbert wrote: > > > I wander what the citta was when the Buddha knew something about the > > mind of an "other"? What does the Abhidhamma say about it? > ... > S: I don't think we can ever overestimate the extent of the direct > knowledge of the Buddha. Whatever he put his mind to, he could know > 'directly', not just conceptually. So he'd know the others' minds as > dhammas. > But presumably he would know "the origin" of those dhammas? He wouldn't think he all of a sudden had a drinking problem on reading the mind of Dean Martin. It seems unescapable, to me, that there is the possibility of differentiating between one causal chain of dhammas and another. The reality of there being your thoughts and memories and my thoughts and memories does not contradict anything in the suttas. Those beings possessed of abhinnas can, after all, also differentiate between their own past lives, and the past lives of others. But the Abhidhamma lacks the capacity to describe such scenarios, as Joop points out. Let's take the parinibanna of the Buddha. Did it happen? Did it happen somewhere, sometime? Or was it a global event with global effect? Did it happen to something, someone specific? Kind Regards Herman 47164 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I think I've got it. If I tell myself to wash the dishes but don't because there is too much sloth and torpor, that sloth and torpor arises with dislike of unpleasant bodily feeling that may arise if I rouse myself. Or perhaps there is clinging to some mental activity or entertainment. Either way, this clinging or dislike is prompted if for no other reason than it is passive. Also we can tell the clinging or aversion are prompted simply by the presence of sloth and torpor. If sloth and torpor are not present, the clinging or aversion may be prompted or unprompted, depending on whether they are active or passive (or possibly there could be a definite prompt). And, as with clinging and aversion, so also with ignorance which arises with all unwholesome consciousnesses. Larry 47165 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jonoabb Hi Lisa Many thanks for tracking down these references to 'upakaraka dhamma'. They both contain useful material. Unfortunately, neither author (Ven Narada, Ledi Sayadaw) gives the source for their reference to the term 'upakaraka', but no doubt an earlier reference will turn up in due course. As to what is and what is not a 'dhamma', this is a big topic and an important one, in fact in a sense you could say it's pretty much all we talk about here. The term 'dhamma' has a number of different meanings in the texts, but in the sense in which I used it in my last post it means anything that has its own characteristic (sabhava) and that accordingly may be the object of sati and panna in the development of insight. These 'dhammas' are classified in the teachings in a number of ways, including as the five khandhas (aggregates), the 12 ayatanas (sense bases), the 18 dhatus (elements), the 4 satipatthanas (foundations of mindfulness), namas and rupas (mentality and materiality), and cittas, cetasikas and rupas (consciousness, mental factors and materiality). These different classifications are all exhaustive classificatons of dhammas that have their own characteristic (except that not all these sets include Nibbana). This is a difficult subject. Happy to discuss further. Jon Lisa wrote: >Hi Jon, I found some interesting words in Colette's > post as well as yours so I chased some of them down. > > >... >Jon asked Colette: I'm interested in the term > 'upakaraka dhamma', since the subject of >whether conditions are or are not 'dhammas' has come up a few >times. Does the source text have anything more to say about it? > >LisaH: Jon, I found the source text I think, but I didn't find >any mention of 'not dhamma.' Also I did a bit more >exploring because I don't know these words well >and this is what I found. Not to take away from >Colette finding this, I would like to discuss what is and >is not dhammas. > >http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/abhisgho/abhis03.htm > >http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL02.html > >... > > 47166 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James Thanks for clarifying your previous posts, and my apologies for any misunderstanding on my part. Let me restate the point I was trying to make. You said: > The Satipatthana Sutta > lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 > parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they > don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that > the activities listed are more conducive to insight. The 'activities' you refer to here are all contained in the section on mindfulness of the body, so if they are indeed conducive to insight then it would be insight into the characteristic of rupas only. Now no such activities are given in relation to mindfulness of feelings, consciousness or dhammas, so I am wondering how you would understand the development of insight into those dhammas to occur, i.e., in the absence of any given 'conducive activites'. Jon buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > > > >... >Now I understand a bit more why you came to the conclusion you did; >however, I think you have read more into the dialogue than was there. > I will explain further below. > >... > > >First, your choice of the word 'suitable' is a hot button word, with >negative connotations, and it isn't a word I would choose. All...let >me repeat: All...of the Satipatthana Sutta is more difficult for lay >folk to follow and, to my knowledge, the Buddha didn't teach it to lay >folk. However, lay folk can benefit from the teaching by >understanding the process and emulating it to the small degree >possible in the worldly life. Additionally, learning the process can >condition greater success in future lives if one becomes a monastic. > >Second, I don't believe the 'specific activities' listed in one >section is more appropriate for lay folk than the general descriptions >listed in the other sections. Those activities, even though they are >specific and identifiable, are not easy to do while living the life of >a householder. > >... > > >>Jon >> >>You said: >>James: The Satipatthana Sutta >>lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 >>parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they >>don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that >>the activities listed are more conducive to insight. >> >>To which I replied: >>I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the >>body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, >>there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, >>consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? >> >>To which you then replied: >>James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a >>bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I >>aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand >>aspirations! ;-) >> >> > >Jon, no where in this exchange do I say that the four sections are >different or that one section is meant for lay folk while the other >three are not. > > 47167 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and Nina {Attn.: Larry and Tom }- That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise so far. Sarah: When the texts discuss kayanupassana, I understand it refers to awareness of rupas in the body. Does this mean there should be any focus on them? I don't think so. Sati is anatta and it just depends on this anatta dhamma what is experienced at any moment. Tep: Kayanupassana has a specific object of the contemplation -- any "body in the body" (kaye-kaya) is the "focus" in the sense of focused attention. Don't forget that the subject matter of the presentation so far is "breathing meditation" of the first tetrad (breaths as "body in the body"). Why does the anatta aspect of sati or any dhamma become an issue at this point so early in the Anapanasati bhavana? -------------------------------------- Sarah: As the sutta B.Samahita quoted said, `any kind of form whatsoever....feeling etc, whether past, present or future......internal or external...fair or foul...high or low...far or near.....should be seen & understood as it really is......etc' Tep: That comes from Anattalakkhana sutta. I thought you were discussing Anapanasati meditation. --------------------------------------- Sarah: ... It doesn't help to think along the lines of `this one was stressed or discussed in more suttas by the Buddha'. It's a question of what appears right now without any wishing for it as we read about in the soggy wood simile. Tep: That's right, what appears "right now" is the breaths and the attention (or sati) placed at the front . "While breathing in long, he knows 'I am breathing in long', while breathing out long, he knows 'I am breathing out long'..." This is real meditation, samatha-vipassana with sati-sampajanna and atapi, based on the object of meditation -- not a thinking meditation to find answer to everything. --------------------------------------- Sarah: And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana through the body- sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. Tep: I am not sure I'm following you here. Please kindly notice that the Breathing Treatise so far (up to paragraph # 197, ground 1 of 1st tetrad) has not touched upon 'dhatu' or "body-sense" in the breathing meditation sutta. It is less confusing when you concentrate only on the text information being presented. "Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing not these three ideas (dhamma) Does not obtain development." Distracted cognizance is avoided when only these three things are well understood during the meditation. [See #169, Breathing Treatise.] ----------------------------------- Sarah: So as soon as the text is referring to vipassana nanas or insights of any kind, it is referring to insights into the true characteristics of these elements –any rupas and any namas appearing only. It is not referring any more to the development of samatha, jhanas and signs of jhanas. Tep: That is what you think**. ------------------------------------ Sarah: This has been a great meditation for me, Tep. I'm sure it raises further questions and there will be much you may take issue with. Tep: But that "great meditation" is just a thinking meditation -- too much on concepts and principles that you have gathered from listening to dhamma talks and reading commentaries. This reminds me of a real vipassana teacher's remark about thinking guided by "panna": "When the meditator receives advice that this rupanama is impermanent, oppressive, and not self, that not even his thinking is permanent, then he must establish mindfulness to note only this present object. Practising by thinking is 'THINKING MEDITATION'; but practising with mindfulness noting the present object is called VIPASSANA. ... ... ... "There are also people who think so much that they cannot sleep anymore. This makes the nerves overtaxed and the body exhausted. Such intense thinking about Dhamma is cintamayapanna which means panna arising from thinking. Some people have learned a lot, therefore they think even more extensively. Some people have mana (conceit); they think they are better, then they become such people who do not believe anybody, not even their own teacher, this is the cause of EXCESS OF PANNA OVER SADDHA." http://www.vimokkha.com/adjusting5indriya3.html Tep: ** I have a suggestion to you, Sarah. Since you seem to know a lot how to read and interpret the Breathing Treatise "the right way", so why don't you take over the presentation from now on? You and Nina should work together since your views are compatible too. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Nina, Han & all)*. > > Let me join your reflections on the difficult passages by thinking out > loud. Thank you all for your posts. > (snipped) > > Of course it depends entirely on accumulations as to what objects are > experienced and known and it depends on the accumulation of wisdom as to whether it's ready to become detached and to experience dhammas for what they are, to experience the rising and falling away of dhammas and so on. It takes a long time because of all the ignrorance and attachment > accumulated as well. > > No one can stop vipassana nanas arising when the conditions are right either. So we read about aniccanupassana,dukkhanapassana, anattanupassana, norodhanupassana, viraganupassana etc – these are kinds of panna arising. > Different aspects of dhammas have to be known before degrees of lobha can be eradicated. > > So the paragraphs you quoted from the Patisambhidamagga #197- 199 refer I think to the principal insights given in Vsm XX,90. (see Connie's post #46354). `Body' here refers to rupas (in the body) as I explained. In this case (of the one who has attained jhanas with breath as object), after attaining jhanas, the various dhammas have to be understood as Nina and Htoo have explained before, starting with the basic understanding of namas and rupas. > (snipped) > > Sarah > * I wrote this post a couple of days ago before reading Nina's and your recent posts, but have been having computer problems, so I delayed posting it. I look f/w to reading your posts I've put aside. > ==== 47168 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 10:54pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 237 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 125) states that shame, which has a subjective origin, arises from consideration of one’s birth, one’s age, heroism (courage and strength) and wide experience. In the case of shamelessness there is lack of such considerations. For example, when we give in to anger or when we are jealous of someone else who receives praise or other pleasant things, there is no consideration of our education or upbringing in morality. At such moments we have no moral strength, we behave like a weakling or a fool, in a childish way. Thus, at the moment of akusala citta there is lack of respect for ourselves, we are forgetful of all we have learnt from the Buddha’s teachings. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47169 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Jon - > >Congratulations for your so-far most direct answers (no beating around >the bush) to my questions. > Is this bush related to the George W variety? >I think we can say that our discussion has >come to a conclusion. > >Jon's Points that Tep has Agreed with >------------------------------------------------------- > >-- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight >development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending >on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, >whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". > >-- "But the central message remained the same, namely, insight into the >true nature of the presently arising dhammas". > >--"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he >meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and >encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala >of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that >accompanies insight in particular". > >-- "... in teaching what 'dhammas' are -- they are presented (classified) >in different ways, as khandhas, as ayatanas, as elements, as in the >fourfold classification of the arousings of mindfulness, etc." > >-- "I think you would agree that the contemplations on vedana, citta and >dhammas as given in the other 3 sections of the Satipatthana Sutta are >posture/activity independent. Yet obviously they can occur only at a >time of either walking, standing, sitting or lying (as in the section on >modes of deportment)." > >Tep's Final remark: Is our successful conclusion this time due to the >fact that you've dropped the 'leadership attitude', or is it because you >have no 'leading points' or branches in your answers, or because I've >become less argumentative? > > ... Or is is because you've been am-bushed? (Just kidding, of course) I am happy to treat the present thread as (happily) concluded, but I'd like to leave you with a couple of questions/comments arising from our Agreed Points that you may wish to consider further (now or later). [AP.1] -- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". There are many references in the texts where the sequence of progress towards enlightenment is described as including the attainment of the 4 mundane jhanas, and/or where the attainment of enlightenment is attained with the jhanas as basis. Is it possible that these references are to be read in the light of our Agreed Point, that is to say, that for those who were already of highly developed samatha there was the prospect of both mundane jhana and enlightenment? In particular, could the mindfulness of breathing section of the Satipatthana Sutta be read as a teaching addressed to monks who were already skilled in the practice of anapanasati samadhi (mindfulness of breathing as a subject of contemplation in samatha bhavana)? [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. Consider the following passage from CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 (i.e., the translator's summary of the commentaries). >>>>>>>>>> All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas *occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana*. Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. >>>>>>>>>> So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). Hoping there are not too many 'leading' questions/points for you here ;-)) Jon Dubya 47170 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Dan Dan D. wrote: >Hi Jon, >You ask a great question -- one that I think is central to the >problem. I think you are right in your implication that a doctrine of >anatta without dhammas is not conducive to any development of >insight -- it would more resemble a dead fatalism. > >The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I >think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its >purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, >and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at >great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have >a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few >months. > I''m not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different teachings. It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-)). But perhaps you see some particular benefit? Jon 47171 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and James and Tep) - > >In a message dated 6/26/05 9:17:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >jonabbott@... writes: >This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being >conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly >no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and >dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? >=========================== > The section on feelings is as follows: > >------------------------------------- >II. The Contemplation of Feeling >And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings? >Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I >experience a pleasant feeling"; >... >Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings >in feelings. >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Isn't it straightforwardly implied here that the practice is paying >attention, to see exactly what is happening? > > As far as I can see, the passage says that when a person who experiences a pleasant feeling knows (by direct understanding), "I experience a pleasant feeling", he is [at that moment] contemplating feelings in feelings. The passage does not purport to explain exactly how that knowledge (panna) comes to arise, but I do not see any need to imply a 'practice' of paying attention to feelings. What is 'paying attention'? Anyone can pay attention to their feelings, but I would not see that as involving kusala of any kind, let alone kusala accompanied by panna which is clearly what is being referred to in the sutta. If anything is to be straightforwardly implied here, I would say it is that the 'knowing' of which the sutta speaks is direct knowledge, that is, with panna. The conditions for the arising of that panna are complex, but we are told that giving repeated consideration to what has been heard and properly understood is a key factor. >Moreover, isn't the prior practice on >the body "to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness" >preparatory practice? > I am not aware of any reference in the sutta or its commentaries to any order of development of the 4 arousings of mindfulness being suggested. (I can see that if one understands the sutta in terms of a 'practice' then it would be useful to have an order -- so that you know where to start the practice ;-)). If there is mindfulness of attachment or aversion at any time, then that is what is being developed at that moment, regardless of the extent to which mindfulness of rupas or of feeling has previously been developed. Jon 47172 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 0:08am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > Thanks for clarifying your previous posts, and my apologies for any > misunderstanding on my part. > > Let me restate the point I was trying to make. You said: > > > The Satipatthana Sutta > > lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 > > parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they > > don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that > > the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > > The 'activities' you refer to here are all contained in the section on > mindfulness of the body, so if they are indeed conducive to insight then > it would be insight into the characteristic of rupas only. Now no such > activities are given in relation to mindfulness of feelings, > consciousness or dhammas, so I am wondering how you would understand the > development of insight into those dhammas to occur, i.e., in the absence > of any given 'conducive activites'. > > Jon It amazes me how you keep coming back to this subject. Do you think I am an expert on satipatthana or something? ;-)) From my understanding, insight into the characteristics of rupas would, post facto, involve insight into the characteristics of namas. They are both dependent on each other. Metta, James 47173 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:34pm Subject: The 3 Universal Characteristics ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Three Undeniable Global Properties: Is the body & external form, lasting or transient? Transient! Is feeling, pleasant or not, lasting or transient? Transient! Is experienced perceptions lasting or transient? Transient! Is the mental constructions lasting or transient? Transient! Is the bare aware consciousness lasting or transient? Transient! Is the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, lasting or transient? Is form, sound, smell, taste, touch & thought, lasting or transient? Is solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, and space, lasting or transient? All these are Transient!, Impermanent!, Temporary!, Fleeting! Is what is transient, happiness or suffering? Decay is Suffering! Is what is transient, ever changing & therefore frustrating pain suitable to be regarded as: 'This is Mine, This I Am, This is Me' 'This I can Keep', 'This I Posses', 'This is my Self' ... ??? No certainly Not ... !!!, since what is self must be keepable, same, constant, controllable, under one's power, and thus pleasant... As all these phenomena are none of this, they cannot ever be self! Seeing this, understanding this, comprehending this, the Noble Learner is disgusted by all form, by all sensing, by all physical, by all mental. Being thus disgusted, one experiences disillusion... Without illusions, the mind is released & one immediately knows: This mental liberation is final & irreversible. This - exactly this - is the state called Nibbana, experienced is this very life ... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 244-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47174 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? jonoabb Hi Herman Lots of meat in your post to Tep, so I hope you don't mind if I butt in ;-)) Egbert wrote: >Hi Tep, > > >... >Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that no thing >is knowable as itself (there is no essence). > The way it is explained in the suttas, the quality of 'anatta' becomes apparent when things are seen as being subject to conditions (not being their own cause). So it is a case of conditioned/not own cause, hence anatta, rather than anatta, hence conditioned/not own cause. I'd be interested to know more about the connection you see between anattaness and being/not being knowable as itself (no essence). Is there a conceptual problem with things being not of their own cause, yet with essence? >All things are a >convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, >or knowable as themselves. > I'd like to ask about the idea of all things being a convergence of many other things, with no thing being knowable as itself. As you sit before your computer and read this post there is visible datum being experienced at the eye-door, and probably hardness through the body door. In what sense do you understand this visible datum or tangible datum to be a convergence of many other 'things' (as opposed to being the product of multiple conditions)? >Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of >the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and >predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to >understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent >origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) >things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to be. > > I agree that an understanding of co-dependent origination is a necessary part of the path to enlightenment. As I see it, this understanding gradually develops as insight into the true nature of dhammas is developed. Is that how you see it too? Jon 47175 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon and Dan, > >Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. > >But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > > There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go. What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison? Jon 47176 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. jonoabb Hi Tep I've been following your series with interest, but don't often find time to make a comment. Tep Sastri wrote: >... > [The Foundation of Mindfulness] > >196. Long in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a >body. The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. The >contemplation is knowledge. The body is the establishment >(foundation), but it is not the mindfulness. [In-breaths and out-breaths >taken as particles are a body in the sense of mass, and also the sign >arisen in dependence on the normal in-breaths and normal out-breaths >is called 'the sign' too. 'The establishment is mindfulness': mindfulness >is called 'establishment(foundation)' since , having approached that >object, it remains there. 'The contemplation is knowledge': the meaning >is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of >the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. ... > >Tep's Notes: > >1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, >equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath >more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle >than before}, 3x3 = 9. > I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I think the nine aspects would be the things itemised as (a) to (i) in par. 195, namely, (long in-breath, long out-breath and long in-breath and out-breath) x ( without zeal or gladness, with zeal, with gladness) >3) In the Thai version "The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. >The contemplation is knowledge." is the same as "Sati becomes >anupassana-nana." > > I was interested to read the explanation of the expression 'The contemplation ins knowledge' in par. 196 above, to the effect that: (a) contemplation of the sign body in serenity is knowledge, and (b) contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight is knowledge. I am guessing that 'serenity' is a translation of 'samatha', and 'insight' a translation of 'vipassana'. What caught my attention was the association of 'sign-body' (nimitta?) with samatha and 'mental body and material body' (nama and rupa) with vipassana bhavana. In other words, insight development is associated with nama and rupa, but not with nimitta. (My understanding is that while both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana involve the arising of panna, the panna would be of different levels/degrees. Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma.) Thanks very much for all the work you put into the series. Much appreciated. Jon 47177 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Hi everyone, > >Consider this post to be drenched in honey before you proceed :-) > > And likewise this one ;-)) >If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. > >"one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote >quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. To apply quantity >to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. > Yes, "one" is a number, and numbers are concepts. But then, all language is concepts (can you make a meaningful sentence without using concepts?). Language that is used to describe what is real is still conceptual. But I do not see how this means a 'confusion of levels'. Unless of course you take the view that reality should never be discussed ;-)) >Further, to objectify >consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an arbitrary >state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. > >In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of >experience. In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, >atomic experiencelets. > It is not a case of consciousness being called reality. It is a case of what is real now being seen as it truly is. One or more of the ways in which that 'reality' is classified includes 'consciousness' as one of its classifications. The conventional idea of consciousness is something else again. >I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework >whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about >which is what, the framework and the reality. > > The application of a conceptual framework to experience would not be the proper practice of the teachings. Jon 47178 From: amp amp Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura Dear Sarah, I think I havant structured my question properly in my last posting. so let me re-post the same question again. My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.. Metta, avidu sarah abbott wrote: Dear Friend*, Welcome to DSG too. I hope you find it helpful and enjoyable to be here. --- avinduandura wrote: > > I would like to ask for help to clarify some douts which is in my > mind about buddha and the buddhism. I know little about the > > buddhism but have deep experience gained from life.I have to use > simple terms as I haven't studied buddhism. <...> 47179 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol balancing_life Hi Sarah & All, Apologise for my absence last week, was not feeling well, due to my "friend's" monthly visit. I am really sorry that all of your family had to endure the sufferings due to your father's weakness/passion/addiction to drinking, as drinking has clouded his mind, thereby being not aware of what he is doing to his family and maybe he just was drinking away his depression, as well. Here in our country, some people even are addicted to cough syrups, as i see them buying them in pharmacies as the side effects of drinking this type of cough syrups is to help them to sleep easier, as when one is depressed, one is unable to sleep well and anyway, it's cheaper than alcohol or beer. Last time, it was worse, when the cough syrup contained a certain ingredient, but after our government got wind of it, it has been elimated from the cough syrup, but apparently, people still do buy them, and before that, our enforcement officers would pretend to be the public, asking for the cough syrup, b'cos it's under a certain category, which needs the buyer to write their name, address and signature, and if the pharmacies just sell them without this info, then they would be caught and fined and even probably jailed for it. But being an optimistic me, Sarah, look at the positive side of it...you have found what you were looking for, due to your father's drunkeness...as they say, "If you want to see the RainBows, then you will have to put up with the rain", or in our Malay proverbs, "Di mana hujan tidak timpah", literally meaning "Where in this world, rain has not fallen"...rain meaning sufferings. Guess in this world, all of us have our own sufferings and if i am not suffering rite now, i would not be into so many Buddhism websites also, likewise for Lord Buddha. If i were him, having so much grandeur in his life...he had a loving father, 3 or is it 4 palaces built for him for different seasons, a beautiful wife who just had a son, and whose purpose in life was just to enjoy life, with no money worries, was not happy when he saw the sufferings of sickness, death, poverty, etc, and just to give up everything so as to find a solution to end all these sufferings, eventhough having meant to give it all up the luxury of being a prince...well it takes a great man to do it and i think, no ordinary human being can do it. Well, eventually, it did helped him in a way, as he outlived his earlier diciples, his own family, his wife and even survived his own son, Rahula...if he was not enlightened, or reached Nibbana, what would you think would have happened to him...suffering the deaths of all his family? We have an Islamic court called the "Syariah" court, whereby they deal with the issues of Muslims behaviour, in Malaysia and recently they announced on the radio, that those Muslims caught drinking or buying alcohol or beer will be fined or jailed...So Lord Buddha is rite, after all, as it is one of his 5 precepts. Will tell you of another precept, ie, illicit sex, which is practiced in our Syariah court as well, in another email. With Metta :} AliceInSympathyLand Hi Alice, I just lost a longer reply to this post of yours. In brief, I thought you made excellent comments and gave some good quotes. S: Ummm - A very clever man, a classics scholar from Cambridge and a lawyer from a well-to-do family, also a doting family man who adored his children....but, a weakness for drink. When we were young, it was just social drinking and he was encouraged as the 'life and soul' of any party.....over the years it got worse and worse, leading to some really horrible incidents, manic depression, serious epileptic fits and much worse. Impossible to talk to him or get any help even though we were so very close. In the end, he lost just about everything. It's still difficult for me to talk about, even though he died 20 yrs ago. He once wrote to me that he was so glad I'd found what I was looking for (in the Dhamma) because he'd been looking his whole life but not found it. .... metta, Sarah 47180 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 balancing_life Well, Sarah, unfortunately, the father has not learnt to let go yet. In fact, since we were young, i haven't seen him cry, until i saw him crying, touching so lovingly on his daughter's face, tracing the outlines, of her face with his fingers. Fortunately for him, his current mum-in-law, has a relative who was a monk, and she arranged for them to meet. Apparently, it did him some good, and seeing the circumstances on the way she died, the monk suggested "Transferance of Merits", in sponsoring publishing free Buddhism books in memory of her name. We also did that in this Mahindarama Temple, whereby, everyday, after the Puja Prayers, they have this custom or tradition of pouring of a jug of water into a empty glass, whilst the monks do the special chanting. Before, we start the puja prayers, then i would give Dana to the monks, to the Amatta Free Clinic, to the Old Folks Home and the last is in memorium, to our dear departed loved ones. So, the one of the monks would read the names of the people who donated and lastly the "in Memorium" would come last before they start the chanting. Usually, one of the devotees, whose dearly departed is marking the first 7th day, after the death of the loved one to the 7th week of the 7th day, as in Taoism, one believes that the dearly departed, only knows that they are dead on the 49th day (7x7), whereas in Buddhism, i have read in books that one is immediately reincarnated, the very next minute one is dead. Also, marking the occasion (in Taoism) is the 100th day and the first anniversary and that person will pour the water slowly out into the glass, filling it in until it overflows and when the monks have finished chanting, the water will be poured away into a tree. As only one person can do the pouring, those wanting to "transfer the merits", will gather around this person and gather this person's blouse or dress or shirt, to share the merits. At first, my brother questioned everyone in his ex-wife's family on how she fell, and after the funeral, he went to the school to investigate as he suspected it has something to do with her school...and eventually the truth came out. Immediately, the next day, the principal ordered a special assembly for the whole school on not to reveal anything regarding my niece's death, but since where i am staying is a small island, the whole thing spread like wildfire, and in the end, everyone knew, as almost everyone i know, has kids studying in that school. I know that, cos a couple of months back, on the way back from my father's house, i met my father's next door neighbours and so far, in so many years, we have never said a word to each other, but just to wave our hands to signify a friendly greeting only and on that day, it turned out that the husband is a teacher in another school, and he mentioned my niece, as our surname is quite unique and told me the same story, that has been circulating about the teacher's loud and harsh scolding & the childish prank...he said he was quite surprised, as it was featured in the newspapers on how she fell to her death, as he told me that both my nieces were very well behaved and quite reserved or very quiet and kept to themselves...no boisterious noises from them. On the day of my niece's death anniversary, my brother was still angry with the antics of her school mates and school teacher, which caused her death and wanted to publish a "In Memoriam" to remind them of my niece's death, in every Chinese and English newspapers, in a very "critical" way, but the publishers did not want to accept it, and he had to tone it down. Subsequently, on the second year's anniversary, he has published another one, (i am now at home and the copy of the advert is not here, but in the office), which i will type it down for you all to read in my next email or ask one of my staff to scan it, and will post it next week. Well, in a week's time, on July 9th, it will be her 3rd anniversary of her death, and if she was still alive, she would have been 15 years old already. The worst thing is that everyday, on the way to & from work, he has to pass the aparment where she fell (her mother & family has moved away immediately, after her death), and also the funeral home where she was laid, before her cremation and also the cremation building is just opposite the funeral home. I too, was at first very disturbed, at first, as i too have to pass that way also, everyday from Mondays to Fridays, her funeral home and where her ashes are held, but nowadays, there are too many problems in my mind, that i do not have the time to think about her, each time i pass there now. My brother told me that on each anniversary of her death, he will go to the place, where her ashes are put in a jar, then into a compartment (he had pasted photos of her, from being a baby till the latest photo he had of her, around the plastic shield on the compartment) and then will later go to the Mahindarama Temple to do the "transference of merits"...which i will also attend. After my niece's death, i was a constant visitor, at the temple there that the staff writing & receiving the Dana, told me that someone else had also donated "in memory of" my niece's name and but when asked the name of the donor, it was written "anonymous"...guess it must either be from one of her school mates or her teacher. I also took one of the Sri Langka monk's there to the funeral home to bless the body or rather did some chanting, before it was put in the coffin and on the day of the funeral itself, my sis-in-law, also asked me to go & fetch the monk to bless her again. In Taoism, usually, a body is put in the funeral home or its own home for 3 or 5 days, whereas for a Islam person, or an Indian person, the funeral will be held on the same day itself, and for the Muslims, there is no coffin, but just a white cloth, wrapped around its body. We chose a Buddhism funeral rites for her instead of Taoism, as Buddhism rites will have vegetarian dishes prepared and when the funeral is on its way, chanting of Buddhism songs will be played, whereas if Taoism funeral rites, were arranged, then they would pray non-vegetarian foods, and lots of effigies/houses, etc would be burned and during the funeral, a funeral band will be playing sad heart rendering songs. Thank you, Sarah, for explaining about her kamma & rebirth, so at least my heart is pacified, that she will be at least be reincarnated, and not be a "hungry ghost" roaming the streets. As i told you that i am still a novice, i am not able to participate in your discussions yet, as i do not even know what "vipaka " means...can you please explain this to me? I feel that you members here are in the advanced stage, whereas i am still in the kindergarten stage only...lol. Thanks and so sorry for boring you all with this story of my niece. With Metta :} AliceStillInDepressionLand Hi Alice, Thank you for your detailed replies and for sharing your difficulties with us. I'm sure it takes some courage to do this. <....> 47181 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:37am Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , philofillet Hi Herman, and all Sorry it took so long to get back to you. It looks like Saturday and Wednesday will be the days I can post at my ease. I think I will call this "letter to Herman" and write to you once a week the way I did with James, if you're intersted. (James and I agreed that we had talked things out to a logical end) I find writing to someone whose views are somewhat contrary to mine is very helpful. You have a good way of challenging me. > The suttas can be likened to an unordered collection of doctor's notes > and prescriptions, found in a surgery after some 40 years of practice. > It has been the work of others to collate, study and interpret them. Yes. I remember when I first came across Dhamma I wondered how we could take the Buddha's teaching verbatim - how do we know what He really said. I don't worry about that anymore because of confidence gained from the benefits. > The prescriptions of the Buddha are to specific people, or to groups > of people. He prescribed starting with the particular thicket of > beliefs the specific patient(s) presented with. Which only makes > sense, doesn't it? Yes, it makes sense. But only the Buddha had the kind of penetrative understanding of people's accumulations. When we go about making judgements about suttas, we are usually operating from a lot of craving and ignorance, so we interpret them the way that best suits are needs at the time. This doesn't always happen, but I'm sure it happens a lot of the time. We should approach suttas well aware that we are not capable of understand them to the degree of the original listeners, in my opinion. If there is right understanding, so be it. > > That experience was composed of elements was certainly a current > belief in those days, and the teaching of the Buddha in relation to > that was not to expand that and get into ever finer and finer detail > about that, but that all condition phenomena have three basic > characteristics, and how to get beyond that. I disagree. I can only guess that you haven't read Samyutta Nikaya. It is chock full of elements. There is one book devoted to khandas, another to sense bases, another to dependent origination, another to feelings, and many more. I have only begun to play around at the surface, but I can assure you that in order to get at understanding the three chracteristics there must be understanding of realities approached from many different angles, with varying degree of details. For example, in SN 22:57, the Buddha said that we should be "triple investigators": "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu a triple investigator? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu investigates by way of the elements, by way of the sense basess, and by way of dependent origination." And note that this is in the samyutta devoted to the khandas. To "get beyond" the three characteristics is the goal, I suppose, but first we have to delve deep into experience in a patient way and see to what degree out experience comes to be that of the Buddha's. Of course, it is only to a very small degree that we can understand reality to the degree the Buddha did, but we can start here and now, patiently. There is no "getting beyond" for us yet, that much is for certain. > There are prescriptions very specifically for people with families, > jobs, responsibilities and aspirations in the world, and we would be > well advised to follow the prescriptions relevant to us, wouldn't you > reckon? Yes, I think of course that it is wise to find guidance in suttas that are worded in conventional language. Inspiration. I get a lot of inspiration from Dhammapada. But reading Dhammapada without at least an intellectual understanding of the elemental realities (such as those laid out above) that lie beneath talk of people and turtles and chariots and so forth is a pleasant exercise and can make us feel that our life is deep and meaningful but it doesn't bring us any closer to liberation. Well, it *can* be a very helpful condition for avoiding evil deeds. Suttas have been helping me greatly to let go of temptations to evil. But that is about not accumulating more evil rather than the ever-so-gradual eradication of accumulated defilements that is involved in satipatthana. My present feeling is that we can make progress in gaining liberating from moral trangression with suttas as a very powerful condition (while remembering that there are even greater forces at work propelling us back towards transgression) but progress in satipatthana is not something a wise person would ever claim to be making. As always, sorry for the all-inclusive "we" above. Let me leave you with a point to ponder. In a sutta in Samyutta Nikaya (SN 35:81) the Buddha tells a monk that if anyone asks him "for what purpose is the holy life lived under the ascetic Gotama?" he should answer "it is for the full understanding of suffering that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." And then he adds that if wanderers should ask "What is that suffering for the full understanding of which the holy life is lived under the ascetic Gotama?" they should answer "The eye is suffering...it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One..forms are suffering..eye-consciousness is suffering..." and so on. Suffering taught in elemental terms, paramattha dhamma terms, rather than in the conventional description of suffering as old age, sickness and death, separation from the beloved etc... We start as the Buddha started, woken to a sense of crisis by realizing that we will grow old, grow sick and die, be torn apart from the loved, crammed together with the stinky unloved and so on....but it is only by getting deeper into realities that we can really find liberation from this suffering. But, again, I do appreciate the inspirational and keeping-us-from- evil aspect of suttas which are all about people and things on the surface. (Of course they are all about realities deeper down when we have right understanding.) We can benefit from them long before we truly understand the deep, deep suttas such as those found in Samyutta Nikaya. A bit of a ramble there, Herman. Thanks for your time. And sorry for any typos. I like to send these things off without proofreading. Metta, Phil 47182 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah and all) - In a message dated 7/1/05 9:05:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Sarah and Nina {Attn.: Larry and Tom }- That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise so far. ====================== Not unsurprisingly, I would suppose, Sarah, I agree with Tep on this matter. It seems to me that you are making an *intellectual* jump to reality insights that can arise as consequence of anapanasati bhavana and *substituting* these intellectual conclusions for the conventional practice teachings that lead to the direct wisdom that actually reveals these insights. To me it is crystal clear that the Buddha teaches in the Anapanasati Sutta conventional mental activities pertaining to conventional objects such as the breath. And it is not surprising that he should do so. Worldlings and lesser ariyans do not directly apprehend at a conscious level paramattha dhammas, but experience them only through a conceptual overlay, and it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that sankharically unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level. We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47183 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:01am Subject: Sandaka Sutta phamdluan2000 Dear everybody, I'm looking for the Sandaka Sutta in which the Buddha talked of 4 types of false religion and 4 other types of unsatisfactory but not necessarily false religion. Thank you in advance. Metta, KKT 47184 From: "avinduandura" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura Hi Nina, I just wanted to clear my mind about rebirth and parallal worlds through the dhamma. I think it is not a practical thing to do at this early stage in learning dhamma. OK, then my next question is what to learn. should we read/learn all the texts which contain every thing buddha said in his 45 years? and speaches given to thousands of people who needed buddhas help to overcome their problem which was not related to the dhamma at all? eg, how to spend a good family life etc.. metta, avidu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Avinduandura, > In understanding the different consciousnesses that change at each moment > and succeed one another, you come to understand yourself and this life. When > understanding of the present moment is fully developed nibbana can be > attained and then doubt about the future is also eradicated. > This is a long process. We should first discuss what is real at this moment. > Nina. > op 29-06-2005 17:17 schreef avinduandura op avinduandura@y...: > > > my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. > > Could we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? 47185 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. upasaka_howard Hi again, Tep, Sarah, and all - In a message dated 7/2/05 9:01:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that sankharically unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level. ===================== Where I wrote "sankharically unconstructed phenomena" I would better have written "conceptually unconstructed phenomena." After all, even conceptually unconstructed phenomena such as hardness and warmth arise conditioned by kamma, and are, thus, sankharically conditioned in part. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47186 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. jonoabb Hi Howard I've been following with interest your discussion with Nina and Lodewijk on the need for the conventional action of paying attention in order for awareness or insight to arise. upasaka@... wrote: >... >Nina adds: >I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional >action to concentrate on nama and rupa. > >Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > There is the need to intend to attend, and there is te need to then pay >attention! For the impermanent, unsatisfying, and empty nature of dhammas to >register, one needs to pay attention in order to really "see". > A couple of comments about what you describe here as the intention to attend and the paying of attention. First, although you don't say this directly, I get the impression (my apologies if I am wrong) that you see the intentional paying of attention to the present reality as being the same thing as awareness or insight. I think we need to be very clear that awareness and insight are aspects of panna, and panna does not arise just because we decide to pay attention to the present reality, or rather, to what we take to be the present reality. To put that another way, paying attention may be kusala or akusala, and it is obviously only the kusala kind, arising with panna, that would be of any benefit here. So the key must be the arising of panna, not paying attention. Secondly, as you have recently agreed in another thread, all forms of kusala can and do arise without being immediately preceded by the conscious intention for its arising. So it is not correct to say there must be intention to attend first. If there is a proper appreciation of the importance of attending to the nature of a presently arising dhamma (a sense of urgency), that attending can occur, at a level appropriate to one's accumulated understanding, without any conscious intention that it should do so. (Another point to consider in relation to this 'intention to attend' is this: If the actual paying of attention is the awareness/insight that is the 'target' of the intention, what is the nature of the intention to attend. Is it itself kusala? It's obviously not samatha or vipassana bhavana, so what kind of kusala is it, and what factors condition its arising?) >The answer is in the experience of this moment and understanding it. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Indeed. But one must pay attention! >-------------------------------------- >... >A noisy plane passed over and I said: see, we do not have to look for sound, >it is there already, and so is hearing. >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Yes, but animals hear it too! >-------------------------------------------- >No need to try to focus on it. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > I disagree. >----------------------------------------- >We >have no precise understanding and confuse hearing with thinking about the >source of the sound, the plane. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If we pay careful attention (a bif IF), we can come to know the >diffrerence. But we have to pay attention! >--------------------------------------- > Would you agree that only panna (or consciousness with panna) can know the difference between moments of hearing consciousness and moments of thinking about the sound being heard? But the conventional action of 'paying attention' is something that can be kusala or akusala, and if kusala may be with or without panna. So is it not more helpful to emphasise the the arising of panna than the paying of attention? >Gradually we can learn the anattaness of >realities precisely. It has nothing to do with luck, it is all due to the >right conditions. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If our own volitional actions have no bearing on it, then that is exactly >what I mean by "luck". Good luck if the conditions "happen" to be useful, and >bad luck otherwise. But if we follow the path of cultivation laid out by the >Buddha, then we are no longer depending on dumb luck. >----------------------------------------- > Yes, volitional actions do of course have a bearing, but volitional action may be kusala or aksuala. So again it is really the kusala that is key, rather than conventional volitional action; the mind-state rather than the act. Jon 47187 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Sarah, and all > > In the recorded talk I mentioned above, A. Sujin says that we want > > to go to the left, and to the right. We want to find comfort in > > conventional realities, and develop our understanding of ultimate > > realities as well. (This second sentence is just my interpretation > > what she means by "going right and left." Please correct me if I'm > > wrong.) > ... > S: (I don't remember the particular talk...but let me add a suggestion). > > Usually we think the solution to our difficulties is to turn left or > right. Ph: Your interpretation which follows is interesting and helpful, and I'd like to discuss it, but I really think A. Sujin was talking about something a bit different. In the talk, Nina is saying that Lodewijk is not comfortable with this "there is no Nina" kind of teaching, that he thinks Dhamma should be presented in a more....palatable way. (My word.) That people cannot accept that kind of hard teaching. Then A. Sujin says that we want to go to the right and we want to go to the left. I really think it's more of a "have your cake and eat it" kind of thing. We want to live in the light of conventional truths, and in the light of ultimate truths, but - she implies- that the ultimate solution is to go toward the ultimate truths. Sorry to paraphrase like this. Again, as soon as I hear the talk again I will post the passage. I have mentionned this so often than I am implying there is something terribly profound in it, but it's just really another talk about concepts vs realities. Now on to your interpretation. >For example, we might think the answer to helping parents is to > decide whether to visit, phone or to send a gift. > > However, whichever way we turn, whichever offering we make or don't make, > it's conditioned already....namas and rupas which are anatta -- not self > who decides. We may make all sorts of good intentions, as we've discussed > before, but it's jsut thinking and we may or may not act as we plan. Ph: Absolutely. We do our best, that's all, when the time comes. Or we don't. > It always comes back to the understanding of dhammas which are conditioned > now as you stress. Ph: I was thinking today about the conditioning power of suttas. For example, if I read the sutta about not being able to repay our debt to our parents even if we carried them around on our shoulders, bathed in their urine and feces and so on, it depends entirely on my accumulations whether that will have any conditioning truth for me. I can think about it and feel motivated by it, but the real motivation, the real conditioning is going on or not going on in a way of which I can only have an inkling. I have heard a fair bit recently about natural decisive support conditions (pakattu panissaya) which A. Sujin teaches in a very broad sense as being all dhammas, everything we've experienced in this life and past lives, if I understood correctly. Everything. I haven't yet heard of the kind of relativity of these conditioning factors that Rob M mentions in his book - things that have happened recently, with intensity, with frequency having more conditioning power than other things. This makes sense to me. A sutta read this morning with clarity should have more conditioning power, now, I would think, than a sutta read 3 years ago when sprawling slightly drunk on the beach. Of course, the conditionng power of suttas we have read is just one factor out of so many that we cannot begin to fathom. The Buddha worked out conditions in detail - we would be foolish to hope to do so. A bit of a ramble there, Sarah, as usual. Thanks again for you support and for the latest disk full of talks, which I received yesterday. Yum yum. Metta, Phil 47188 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth jonoabb Hi Phil Philip wrote: > I will reflect on the value of a lot of phone calls. Probably that >would help my father more than my mother - presumedly folks with >Alzheimer's would benefit more from a physical presence, which I >will rarely be able to provide, than verbal communication. (Even at >the best of times, my mum was not one to carry on a logical >conversation! ) But we'll see what happens. > > I think that's the right approach (reflecting on things and seeing what happens). Each person must make their own choices, as best they can. There are no 'right' answers for the situational problems. > I've been reflecting now and then about why I haven't been more >upset about this than I have. Whether it's a characteristic coldness >about loved ones, or a kind of wisdom, perhaps accumulated from past >lives (since I've always been like this) or both, or what. No >conclusions, of course, but one thing is for sure - whenever worry >comes up about it, my mind skips ahead away from worrying about my >parents to worrying about me and Naomi. For the last few years I've >been worrying about out future quite often, so this new sad story >has me churning up new sad stories about me and Naomi. The mind >churns up so many sad stories, so many worries, so much suffering >before the fact. > > Again, different people have different triggers for dosa reactions! Jon 47189 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 236 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (j) philofillet Hi all > Shamelessness does not shrink from evil because it is not ashamed > of it and does not abhor it. The "Paramattha Mañjúså" compares > it to a domestic pig which does not abhor filth. Hiri (moral shame) is one of the "guardians of the world." How often does it arise in daily life and help us to abstain from shameful deeds through body, speech and mind. And every time it arises, perhaps it is conditioned to arise again. This is the sort of thing that can give us courage and feel we are making progress with truly repulsive defilements, even as we patiently look at the less harmful ones of which daily life is built, for worldlings. (Not unharmful, because they accumulate and who knows what can come of that?) In a talk, I heard again A. Sujin say that she doesn't worry about her akusala. I think it is the latter kind of akusala she is referring to, not the kind that is of the degree of immorality. Nobody wants to be reborn in a hell. Which brings us to recklessness. > As to recklessness, it does not abhor, draw back from evil because > it does not see the danger of akusala and it does not fear its > consequences such as an unhappy rebirth. The "Paramattha > Mañjúså" compares recklessness to a moth which is attracted to > the fire, although this is dangerous for it. Ph: I've often mentionned the simile of seizing an iron rod, one end smeared with feces, and the other burning red hot. The olatter of course is recklessness, the former shamelessness. > Are we enslaved by pleasant experiences? We may even commit evil through > body, speech or mind on account of them. Then recklessness does not > fear the danger of akusala, it does not care about the consequences > of akusala. > > The proximate cause of shamelessness is lack of respect for > oneself and the proximate cause of recklessness is lack of respect > for someone else. In order to have more understanding of this, > we should first study their opposites: moral shame, hiri, and moral > fear of blame, ottappa. Shame has a subjective origin, it is influenced > by oneself; its proximate cause is self-respect. Fear of blame has > an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate > cause is respect for someone else. Ph: I don't quite get this. "The proximate cause of recklessness is lack of respect for someone else." I think in Rob M's book he refers to the Golden Rule to express this idea, which I remember I asked him about, puzzled. It seems to me recklessness is also very subjective - having fear of suffering in hell or an animal realm because of one's behaviour feels pretty subjective and personal. Praise to hiri and otappa, the guardians of Phil! Metta, Phil 47190 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/2/05 9:55:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard I've been following with interest your discussion with Nina and Lodewijk on the need for the conventional action of paying attention in order for awareness or insight to arise. upasaka@... wrote: >... >Nina adds: >I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional >action to concentrate on nama and rupa. > >Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > There is the need to intend to attend, and there is te need to then pay >attention! For the impermanent, unsatisfying, and empty nature of dhammas to >register, one needs to pay attention in order to really "see". > A couple of comments about what you describe here as the intention to attend and the paying of attention. First, although you don't say this directly, I get the impression (my apologies if I am wrong) that you see the intentional paying of attention to the present reality as being the same thing as awareness or insight. -------------------------------------- Howard: Nope, not at all. (Apology accepted.;-) ------------------------------------- I think we need to be very clear that awareness and insight are aspects of panna, and panna does not arise just because we decide to pay attention to the present reality, or rather, to what we take to be the present reality. To put that another way, paying attention may be kusala or akusala, and it is obviously only the kusala kind, arising with panna, that would be of any benefit here. ------------------------------------- Howard: Inasmuch as I do not conflate paying attention with wisdom, this isn't relevant. ------------------------------------ So the key must be the arising of panna, not paying attention. ---------------------------------- Howard: Key to what? I will choose to pay attention as best I can. If you consider that unimnportant, okay - your choice. --------------------------------- Secondly, as you have recently agreed in another thread, all forms of kusala can and do arise without being immediately preceded by the conscious intention for its arising. So it is not correct to say there must be intention to attend first. ----------------------------------- Howard: Without consistent, and hopefully habituated, intention to pay attention our attention will typically arise only when we are *intersted* in what is arising, which generally means when what arises is pleasant and craved (or the diametric opposite). It is not good to have our attention led by the nose by our defilements! ------------------------------------ If there is a proper appreciation of the importance of attending to the nature of a presently arising dhamma (a sense of urgency), that attending can occur, at a level appropriate to one's accumulated understanding, without any conscious intention that it should do so. ------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, yes - "can" occur. But it is far better to*cultivate* ongoing attention, Jon. Our study of the Dhamma makes it clear how important paying attention is. It is so wonderful that the Buddha emphasized that. But if we don't pay attention to his teachings except as intellectual diversion, then we will not benefit from them. ------------------------------------- (Another point to consider in relation to this 'intention to attend' is this: If the actual paying of attention is the awareness/insight that is the 'target' of the intention, what is the nature of the intention to attend. --------------------------------------- Howard: That is a red herring, Jon. I haven't said that, and I don't believe that - so this matter is entirely irrelevant. ---------------------------------------- Is it itself kusala? It's obviously not samatha or vipassana bhavana, so what kind of kusala is it, and what factors condition its arising?) >The answer is in the experience of this moment and understanding it. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Indeed. But one must pay attention! >-------------------------------------- >... >A noisy plane passed over and I said: see, we do not have to look for sound, >it is there already, and so is hearing. >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Yes, but animals hear it too! >-------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No comment on that, Jon? :-) -------------------------------------------------- >No need to try to focus on it. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > I disagree. >----------------------------------------- >We >have no precise understanding and confuse hearing with thinking about the >source of the sound, the plane. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If we pay careful attention (a bif IF), we can come to know the >diffrerence. But we have to pay attention! >--------------------------------------- > Would you agree that only panna (or consciousness with panna) can know the difference between moments of hearing consciousness and moments of thinking about the sound being heard? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Why do you ask? How does this address what we have been discussing? To distinguish anything obviously requires at least some degree of understanding. I don't get the point. ---------------------------------------- But the conventional action of 'paying attention' is something that can be kusala or akusala, and if kusala may be with or without panna. So is it not more helpful to emphasise the the arising of panna than the paying of attention? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know what it means to "emphasise the arising of panna". What we emphasize in a conversation is a side issue. What our cultivational practices are is another. Also, why compare one topic of discussion with another as more helpful than the second? We are, in fact, discussing the matter of paying attention. To say that to discuss something else is better amounts to saying that you'd rather not discuss the issue at hand. But there is, in fact, no necessity to discuss the matter at hand. You may choose to or not. ----------------------------------------- >Gradually we can learn the anattaness of >realities precisely. It has nothing to do with luck, it is all due to the >right conditions. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If our own volitional actions have no bearing on it, then that is exactly >what I mean by "luck". Good luck if the conditions "happen" to be useful, and >bad luck otherwise. But if we follow the path of cultivation laid out by the >Buddha, then we are no longer depending on dumb luck. >----------------------------------------- > Yes, volitional actions do of course have a bearing, but volitional action may be kusala or aksuala. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So what is your point, Jon? That is a truism. But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous. --------------------------------------------- So again it is really the kusala that is key, rather than conventional volitional action; the mind-state rather than the act. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a specious and useless conclusion as I see it. (As to why, please see the content of this entire post.) ---------------------------------------------- Jon ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47191 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > BTW Chanda is not lobha. > > No, but chanda is desire, in one meaning of the word. I found that > sutta in the index under "desire" > > BTW, are you thinking of coming up to Tokyo any day soon? I'd love > to meet you again. > > Metta, > Phil Dear Phil, Kusala chanda arises together with alobha (non-attachment) so I think it is a kind of sincere, relaxed interest- desire is not the right word I think. I'll be spending a night in Tokyo on the 4th of next month, hope to see you then. Then in Bangkok for a week mid-september and be back in Tokyo in october for a couple of nights. robert > > > > , 47192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. nilovg Hi Tep, I suggest that you continue just as you did, and now and then I add something from the Commentary. I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like this, why should it matter? So I hope you will continue your good work and that Han will also help. Nina. op 02-07-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I have a suggestion to you, Sarah. Since you seem to know a > lot how to read and interpret the Breathing Treatise "the right way", so > why don't you take over the presentation from now on? 47193 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:07am Subject: Re: Sandaka Sutta lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear everybody, > > I'm looking for the Sandaka Sutta > in which the Buddha talked of > 4 types of false religion and > 4 other types of unsatisfactory > but not necessarily false religion. > > Thank you in advance. > > Metta, > > KKT Hi KKT, It is MN76. Not in Access To Insight. Larry 47194 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:13am Subject: Re: Sandaka Sutta lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > Dear everybody, > > > > I'm looking for the Sandaka Sutta > > in which the Buddha talked of > > 4 types of false religion and > > 4 other types of unsatisfactory > > but not necessarily false religion. > > > > Thank you in advance. > > > > Metta, > > > > KKT > > Hi KKT, > > It is MN76. Not in Access To Insight. > > Larry Here it is: http://www.vipassana.info/076-sandaka-e1.htm 47195 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - > I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like > this, why should it matter? No, it doesn't matter when people have different views. However, "in a forum like this" anything can happen -- such as getting reprimanded for making a joke that doesn't hurt anyone. The work will continue until it is finsihed, as long as there is an appreciative audience. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I suggest that you continue just as you did, and now and then I add > something from the Commentary. > I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like > this, why should it matter? > So I hope you will continue your good work and that Han will also help. > Nina. > op 02-07-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > I have a suggestion to you, Sarah. Since you seem to know a > > lot how to read and interpret the Breathing Treatise "the right way", so > > why don't you take over the presentation from now on? 47196 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard {Attn. : Sarah, Jon and all } - I already have read your next message(#47185) that changed the word "sankharically" to "conceptually". Anapanasati bhavana with 16 vatthu(grounds) was strongly supported by the Buddha and the Arahants such as Sariputta and Ananda. And yet, the meditation scheme has been interpreted in many different ways, intellectually as well as unintellectually. There are some with strong views, who have enough courage to *substitute* their own interpretations for the original "conventional practice teachings" and that, in my sincere opinion, is unacceptable. It is nice to know that in the world today, 2548 years after the Buddha's parinibbana, there are people who are capable of understanding the Anapanasati sutta enough to 'call a spade a spade'. Howard is one of them. Howard's Clear Understandings: ------------------------------------------------ -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" the "reality insights". -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level". -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". Tep: I particularly like your third point which, in my own blunt words, warns that if we continue with the mumbo-jumbo intellectual understanding of the Breathing Meditation without earnestly practicing it, then we will blow up the chance to actually "cultivate" the real wisdom. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Sarah and all) - > > In a message dated 7/1/05 9:05:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, Sarah and Nina {Attn.: Larry and Tom }- > > > That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several > issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise so > far. > 47197 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and all) - In a message dated 7/2/05 2:24:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard {Attn. : Sarah, Jon and all } - I already have read your next message(#47185) that changed the word "sankharically" to "conceptually". Anapanasati bhavana with 16 vatthu(grounds) was strongly supported by the Buddha and the Arahants such as Sariputta and Ananda. And yet, the meditation scheme has been interpreted in many different ways, intellectually as well as unintellectually. There are some with strong views, who have enough courage to *substitute* their own interpretations for the original "conventional practice teachings" and that, in my sincere opinion, is unacceptable. It is nice to know that in the world today, 2548 years after the Buddha's parinibbana, there are people who are capable of understanding the Anapanasati sutta enough to 'call a spade a spade'. Howard is one of them. Howard's Clear Understandings: ------------------------------------------------ -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" the "reality insights". -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level". -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". Tep: I particularly like your third point which, in my own blunt words, warns that if we continue with the mumbo-jumbo intellectual understanding of the Breathing Meditation without earnestly practicing it, then we will blow up the chance to actually "cultivate" the real wisdom. Sincerely, Tep ============================= As I have already made clear, we happily have the same perspective on Buddhist practice! :-) I thank you very much for the generous praise you offer me in this post, though I admit to being a drop embarrassed by it. I also hasten to add, however, that I would have been a bit more comfortable had you responded just a wee bit more "softly" in this post and with words a bit less "blunt" (as you put it). ;-) But as to objective content, we are entirely in agreement, and it pleases me to have a friend who sees these matters as I do. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47198 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, all - {Attn.: Jon and Howard} - There has been an interesting "exchange" between Howard & Jon on appropriate attention with (cultivated) intention versus accumulating panna without intention or attention at all ( see #47190 ). Are they different? (I) Jon's point has been that everything boils down to kusala mind- state: it is the basis for the arising of panna through accumulation, and panna is everything -- there is no need to do anything else, just be patient. Jon: "If there is a proper appreciation of the importance of attending to the nature of a presently arising dhamma (a sense of urgency), that attending can occur, at a level appropriate to one's accumulated understanding, without any conscious intention that it should do so. "So again it is really the kusala that is key, rather than conventional volitional action; the mind-state rather than the act. "But the conventional action of 'paying attention' is something that can be kusala or akusala, and if kusala may be with or without panna. So is it not more helpful to emphasise the the arising of panna than the paying of attention? Tep: Howard's point has been that we must train ourselves to cultivate a habit to pay attention to the arising realities, and by appropriate attention (yoniso-manasikara) we can then avoid or eradicate defilements (asavas). Howard: "Without consistent, and hopefully habituated, intention to pay attention our attention will typically arise only when we are *intersted* in what is arising, which generally means when what arises is pleasant and craved (or the diametric opposite). It is not good to have our attention led by the nose by our defilements! "But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous. Tep: Whose view do you agree with and why? Sincerely, Tep ===== 47199 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I was surprised by your bursting energy level today -- how many posts did you make? >Tep's Notes: > >1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, >equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath >more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle >than before}, 3x3 = 9. > Jon: I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I think the nine aspects would be the things itemised as (a) to (i) in par. 195, namely, (long in-breath, long out-breath and long in-breath and out-breath) x ( without zeal or gladness, with zeal, with gladness). Tep: My first reading also tempted me to straightforwardly count (a) to (i) and come up with the number 9. However, the second reading discovered that (c) alone consists of two distinct aspects: 1. long in- breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent; 2. zeal arises with long in- breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent. And in (i) there are two distinct aspects: 1. Through gladness he has long in-breaths and out- breaths reckoned by extent; 2. Long in-breaths and out-breaths through gladness that results in established equanimity. So I discovered the right nine aspects in (c) - (i) instead of (a) - (i). Jon: (a) contemplation of the sign body in serenity is knowledge, and (b) contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight is knowledge. ... I am guessing that 'serenity' is a translation of 'samatha', and 'insight' a translation of 'vipassana'. Tep: Yes, the two words are correct, according to the Pali words as listed in the book's INDEX. Jon: What caught my attention was the association of 'sign-body' (nimitta?) with samatha and 'mental body and material body' (nama and rupa) with vipassana bhavana. In other words, insight development is associated with nama and rupa, but not with nimitta. Tep: Yes, "insight development is associated with nama and rupa, but not with nimitta" is my understanding too. By the way, the word nimitta is not limited to the kasina's mental images (i.e. preparatory image, acquired image, and counter-image). See Nyanatiloka's Dictionary. http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nimitta.htm Jon: My understanding is that while both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana involve the arising of panna, the panna would be of different levels/degrees. Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. Thanks very much for all the work you put into the series. Much appreciated. Tep: I don't understand "Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma". I am grateful to your feedback on the series. As I told Nina in a today's message, I would continue when there was a (detectable) appreciative audience. Why waste time if there are only "bad reviews"? Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > I've been following your series with interest, but don't often find time > to make a comment. >