48400 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:47pm Subject: Re: The Mirage of Elements and Time buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - Thank you for accept the [gas filling / road travel] analogy to [Dhamma study / practice] case. > H: > The tank is full when it overflows. How to know when you have done > enough Dhamma reading for a while? If everytime you open your lid > texts come pouring out :-) > T: Here the 'gas tank' is analogous to brain; 'gasoline' is to Dhamma; 'car' is to mind; 'road travel' is to Dhamma practice; 'off the road' is to Dhamma reading. The brain is not overflow with the Dhamma, unlike a gas tank ! In my situation I only read just for answering a question or two; then I read again when more questions arise. Otherwise, I practice. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > You are a wise guy. > > > > H: > > > > Another way of looking at our compulsive reading & studying habits is "feeding the beast". The thinking mind craves for concepts to juggle, that's all it can do. But if the purpose of our effort is to see the > > > namas and rupas as they arise, change and cease, then reading a phone book is just as rewarding. Or not reading anything. > > > > > > > Tep: Dhamma reading (and listening/discussion) for learning and > > researching for a fact should be separated from contemplation > > (anupassana), I guess. Just like when your gas tank is near empty > > you'd stop by a gas station to fill her up. But when your tank is > nearly full or full (depending on how much money you have to buy the gas), the filling is done and you are on the road again. > > 48401 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: Kundaliyasutta and Co. part 1. buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - Your questions are quite appropriate : > Herman: What is striking is that there is now no further question "How does a bhikkhu not long for it?" or "How is a bhikkhu not dismayed by it?" > Is the ability of self-restraint a given? > Tep: I have seen a common pattern in most of the suttas I have studied: the qualifications or capabilities for accomplishing or arriving at the specific end results are stated without completely specifying the means to achieve them. For example : (I) "...having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. His body is steady ad his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated." (II) "...having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." In (I) we are not told how to not become excited by an agreeable form we have seen. In (II) we are not told how to abandon bodily misconduct, etc. Why? I guess this and other discourses have their foci on specific themes. The discourses (or any lectures) have finite length and therefore can only cover certain topics in good detail, while other related topics are left out. It is supposed to be the duty of the listener (or reader) to get the left-out information from other discourses. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am sorry if the following point has already been made. If so, I > would sincerely appreciate a reference to the post(s) that addressed it. > > This Sutta is in the form of question and answer. > > Q] What things, when developed and cultivated, fulfill ...X1... > > A] ...X2.... , when developed and cultivated, fulfill ...X1... > > Q] What things, when developed and cultivated, fulfill ...X2... > > and so forth. > > Until we come to "having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a > bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate > lust for it. > > and > > having seen a disagreeable form with the eye, he is not dismayed > by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. > His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed > and well liberated. > > What is striking is that there is now no further question "How does a > bhikkhu not long for it?" or "How is a bhikkhu not dismayed by it?" > > Is the ability of self-restraint a given? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > 48402 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Re: D.O. - RobK rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear Rob, > > Salayatana pacccaya phasso - dependent on the sixfold base arises > contact. > Is this contact the cetasika Phassa? > > ____________ Hi Azita, Yes indeed it is. Nina will be able to explain this more correctly if you want details. Robert 48403 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 phamdluan2000 Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, KKT - In a message dated 7/31/05 5:05:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phamdluan@a... writes: KKT: To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. ==================== Please, where did he teach that? With metta, Howard KKT: Here is an extract from "The Message of the Buddha" by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory from Determinism, he also faced the question of free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told him that he was of the opinion that there was no free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and asked him how he could say such a thing when he himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up to the Buddha and walk away from him. On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is such a thing as 'an element of initiative' (arabbha-dhatu), and as a result one can observe beings acting with initiative and this says the Buddha is what is called 'the free-will of people' (sattanam atta-karo). He also goes on to say that there is 'an element of origination' (nikkama-dhatu), an 'element of endeavour' (parakkama-dhatu), an 'element of strength' (thama-dhatu) and an 'element of perseverance' (thiti-dhatu) and an 'element of volitional effort' (upakkama-dhatu), which makes beings of their own accord act in various ways, and that this showed that THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire. Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. As a result Buddhism has been represented by some Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma as well as the doctrine of causation. KKT 48404 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:55pm Subject: Re: D.O. - RobK robmoult Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: > > Dear Rob, > > > > Salayatana pacccaya phasso - dependent on the sixfold base > arises > > contact. > > Is this contact the cetasika Phassa? > > > > ____________ > Hi Azita, > Yes indeed it is. > Nina will be able to explain this more correctly if you want details. > Robert ===== More details from "another Rob" Conditioned by sixth base and sixfold base, contact arises [See Vism XVII 227] Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base; or visible-data base, sound base, odour-, flavour-, tangible-data base, dhamma base Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye- contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear- contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye- contact, etc.) through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence / Nondisappearance condition Vipaka mind-base conditions vipaka mind contact through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence / Nondisappearance condition Visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions eye-contact (ear- contact, etc.) through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence / Nondisappearance condition At the present moment, visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions mind contact through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence / Nondisappearance condition Dhamma base conditions mind contact in the past and future through object condition only. Metta, Rob M :-) 48405 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:31pm Subject: Re: Transcendent(AL) nichiconn Hi, Steve, I have trouble following the whole Kathavatthu! :( logic and debate. But, when I don't understand, I must have another/wrong understanding and 'should be made to understand or should be refuted'. Sounds right to me what you said about only that right speech at moments of magga and phala being lokuttara. But, yeah, [lokuttara] dana? I dunno. peace, connie 48406 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:46pm Subject: What Exists ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is it that Exists & what does Not Exist ? The blessed Buddha said: What is it, bhikkhus, that the wise & clever in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist? Form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: This the wise & clever in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say, that it does not exist. Feeling ... Perception ... Mental Constructions ... Consciousness, that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: This the wise & clever in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say, that it does not exist. That, bhikkhus, is what the wise & clever in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say, that it does not exist. And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise & clever in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise & clever in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say, that it exists! Transient Feeling ... Perception ... Mental Constructions ... Consciousness, that is momentary, suffering, & subject to change: this the wise & clever in the world agree upon as existing, & I too say that it exists! That, bhikkhus is what the wise & clever in this world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XXII (94); [III 139] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 An Ocean of Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Khandha On Clusters! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 48407 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:24pm Subject: Conventional and absolute designations of the same reality bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Friend Joop who is perplexed about: >human being is not an 'it' (because metta and karuna can not be given to a 'it') _There are Two levels of Truth:_ 1: The Conventional (such daily speech & what all regards as normal) 2: The Absolute (such as what really exists behind the appearance..) Is is *Conventionally True,* that there are beings of compassion etc... Simultaneously & without inconsistency (as another reference frame): Is is *Absolutely True*, that there are no same 'beings' yet still there are impersonal benevolent mental constructions as compassion etc... IOW: On the purely linguistic level there are both! a conventional reality and an absolute reality... From the indispensable: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm Buddhist Dictionary Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA *Desana:* 'exposition' of the doctrine, may be either an exposition true in the highest sense/ (paramattha-desaná);/ or it may not be true in the highest, but only in the conventional sense /(vohára-desaná)./ *paramattha */(-sacca, -vacana, -desaná):/ 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' /(vohára-sacca), /which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' /(sammuti-sacca;/ in Skr: /samvrti-satya)./ The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech /(vohára-vacana)./ It is one of the main characteristics of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, in distinction from most of the Sutta Pitaka, that it does not employ conventional language, but deals only with ultimates, or realities in the highest sense /(paramattha-dhammá). /But also in the Sutta Pitaka there are many expositions in terms of ultimate language /(paramattha-desaná),/ namely, wherever these texts deal with the groups/ (khandha), /elements /(dhátu) /or sense-bases /(áyatana), /and their components; and wherever the 3 characteristics /(ti-lakkhana,/ q.v.) are applied. The majority of Sutta texts, however, use the conventional language, as appropriate in a practical or ethical context, because it "would not be right to say that 'the groups' /(khandha)/ feel shame, etc." It should be noted, however, that also statements of the Buddha couched in conventional language, are called 'truth' /(vohára-sacca),/ being correct on their own level, which does not contradict the fact that such statements ultimately refer to impermanent and impersonal processes. The two truths - ultimate and conventional - appear in that form only in the commentaries, but are implied in a sutta-distinction of 'explicit (or direct) meaning' /(nítattha,/ q.v.) and 'implicit meaning (to be inferred)' /(neyyattha). /Further, the Buddha repeatedly mentioned his reservations when using conventional speech, e.g. in D. 9: "These are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Perfect Qne (Tathágata) uses without misapprehending them." See also S. I. 25. The term /paramattha,/ in the sense here used, occurs in the first para. of the Kathávatthu, a work of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (s. Guide, p. 62). (App: vohára). The commentarial discussions on these truths (Com. to D. 9 and M. 5) have not yet been translated in full. On these see K N. Jayatilleke, Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge (London, 1963), pp. 361ff. Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct <....> 48408 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 0:22am Subject: correction Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176 nilovg Hi Larry, Connie and all, A correction: The first type of moha-muulacitta with doubt does not have determination nor wish-to-do, chanda. I had omitted to mention this. The whole post follows with this correction. Not too late for the archives? ****** Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176. Moha-muulacittas. Intro: There are two types of cittas rooted in ignorance, moha-muula-cittas. They have moha as their only root and they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. They are: 1) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with doubt 2) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with restlessness *** Restlessness or agitation, uddhacca, accompanies each akusala citta. But in this case the second type of akusala citta rooted in delusion or ignorance is called associated with restlessness in order to differentiate it from the first type of moha-muulacitta. It has moha as its only root. Text Vis.: 176. (32)-(33) As regards the two rooted in delusion, firstly: [associated] with [the consciousness that is] associated with uncertainty (32) are the eleven given in the texts as such thus: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), (xlix) steadiness of consciousness, consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), delusion (xl), (l) uncertainty. The or-whatever-states are these two: agitation (xlii), attention (xxx). And these together total thirteen. ------ N: The Visuddhimagga deals first with the moha-muulacitta accompanied by vicikicchaa, doubt or uncertainty. It is accompanied by the five universals (cetasikas which accompany every citta) that are included in the khandha of formations. These are: contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, which accompany every citta are not reckoned here since they are not the khandha of formations. As to concentration, this is denoted here as steadiness of consciousness, citta.t.thiti, which is, as will be explained, weak concentration. There are six particulars which accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, sometimes translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. Of these, only three types accompany the first type of moha-muulacitta, because rapture and determination or decision and wish-to-do are excluded. There is no piiti since the accompanying feeling is indifferent. When there is doubt and wavering there cannot be determination, adhimokkha. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta: moha, shamelessness, recklessness, and agitation, uddhacca. Attention (a universal) and agitation are reckoned here as supplementary factors, or what-ever cetasikas. The Visuddhimagga follows the enumeration of the Dhammasa"nga.nii which does not mention all cetasikas concerned but gives the abreviation of ³or what-ever². Moreover, the first type of moha-muulacitta is accompanied by doubt and thus, it is accompanied by thirteen cetasikas in all. In this case also the universals and particulars perform their functions in an unwholesome way. All accompanying cetasikas are affected by moha, ignorance, that does not see that doubt is akusala. There is no shame that abhors doubt and no fear of the consequences of this way of akusala. There is also agitation when there is doubt, there cannot be peace of mind. The second type of moha-muulacitta is not accompanied by doubt, but it is accompanied by the Œparticular cetasika¹ determination which does not accompany doubt. Therefore, this type of citta is also accompanied by thirteen cetasikas. **** Nina. 48409 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha jonoabb Hi Howard and All We are now staying in the Sydney city centre. Without the distraction of a surfing beach across the road, I am hoping to find some time to post to the list (although we did manage a trip to Manly beach today). There are 1 or 2 older threads, such as this one, that I had meant to come in on but did not have time to while in Hong Kong, and also of course a number of posts addressed to me that I will try to answer over the next few days. upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Nina - > >In a message dated 7/20/05 5:44:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >vangorko@... writes: >Hi Howard, >I could not trace that Jataka. But Sumedha, the future Buddha Gotama, could >never be an arahat when he declared to the Buddha Diipankara his intention >to attain Buddhahood in the future. >Nina. >======================== > Yes, that was my understanding of the Theravadin perspective. The claim >with regard to the Dipankara Jataka contradicts that, allowing as it does for >an arahant to willfully be reborn multiple times in order to perfect all the >paramitas and eventually attain Buddhahood. It would be good to know what is >actually in that Jataka story in this regard. > > I am wondering if this (mistaken) idea comes from the 'Buddhism in Translations' version of the relevant Jataka. See the references to 'who saintship gains' and 'in a fit condition by the attainment of saintship in that same existence' in the passages below. Jon 69. "A human being,[2] male of sex, Who saintship gains, a Teacher meets, As hermit lives, and virtue loves, Nor lacks resolve, nor fiery zeal, Can by these eight conditions joined, Make his most earnest wish succeed." p. 15 [J.i.1530] [2] Native gloss: Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: For it is only a human being that can successfully wish to be a Buddha; a serpent, or a bird, or a deity cannot successfully make the wish. Of human beings it is only one of the male sex that can make the wish: it would not be successful on the part of a woman, or of a eunuch, or of a neuter, or of a hermaphrodite. Of men it is he, and only he, who is in a fit condition by the attainment of saintship in that same existence, that can successfully make the wish. ... http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits003.htm 48410 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 458 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagams or anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. new sakadaagams or sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapams or sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. new sotapams or sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala The last individual is one who is born with dvihetuka patisandhi citta and so they will have dvihetuka bhavana cittas as back ground consciousness that are flowing while there is no current arammana or objects to be taken. The possible cittas that can arise in these dvihetuka puggalas are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 8 mahaakusala cittas -- 20 javana cittas No other javana cittas can arise in these individuals as long as they are in their current life with dvihetuka patisandhi citta. All 26 appanaa javana citta cannot arise in these individuals. These 26 javana cittas are 5 ruupakusala, 5 ruupakiriya, 4 aruupakusala, 4 aruupakiriya, and 8 lokuttara javana cittas. As these dvihetuka puthujanas are not arahats 8 mahaakiriya and 1 hasituppaada citta do not arise in them. So 26 + 9 = 35 javana cittas never arise in dvihetuka puggalas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48411 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: >Fortunately the Buddha's Teaching in this sutta [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] >is not that rigid. You're right to say "But I do not read the texts as saying >that insight can only be developed once virtue has been perfected..". >The key is in cetana -- for example, once you become dispassionate >(endowed with, or fulfilled with viraga) then even with no cetana to >realize the knowledge & vision of release, you will realize it -- i.e. it is >guaranteed by the Buddha. > >Of course, there is no rule (laid by the Buddha) against starting with >vipassana bhavana when we are not yet "fulfilled" with virtues. But a >person who starts at intellectual understanding of the ti-lakkhana and >stays there without being endowed with viraga can only wish or intend >to realize the knowledge and vision of release. And, unfortunately, >there is no guarantee of the realization for such a person, according to >this sutta. > I agree with all you have said so far. >In my opinion, starting anywhere doesn't matter. The point is that you >must be dispassionate first before the realization. And the question is >how to become dispassionate. > >Now, if you work your way backward to find the condition that >guarantees dispassionate, you'll find 'yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana', and >so on to consummation in virtues. That, to me, is an Q.E.D. that it is best >to shoot for consummation in virtues one day, no matter where you >started. > I agree also with the idea of consummation in virtues as one of the goals, and a more immediate one than final enlightenment. But I don't think the lack of such perfection should distract us from the development of insight; otherwise we are in effect putting off the development of insight to a future time. Does this make sense to you? >Thank you for being one of the "perfect gentlemen" of this group. > Thanks, Tep. I think everyone on this list makes an effort to be restrained, and they do so out of consideration for others who share a genuine interest in the teachings. Without that restraint, we would not be able to benefit to the extent we do. Jon 48412 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Perhaps I am myopic in my reading of the suttas, but I always >understood the point of the teachings to be that that the only >characteristics of dhammas worth knowing are anicca, anatta and dukkha. > The 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are the ones that must eventually be known if insight is to be attained. But dhammas also have other characteristics that are to be known, including the characteristic of being a nama or a rupa, and the individual characteristic that distinguishes a given dhamma from all other dhammas (seeing consciousness, visible object, etc). Jon 48413 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: Conventional and absolute designations of the same reality jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear Friend Joop who is perplexed about: > > >human being is not an 'it' (because metta and karuna can not be > given to a 'it') .... Hallo Ven. Samahita Thanks for you reaction. It contains much good information, one misunderstanding and one point I disagree. "Dear Friend Joop who is perplexed about" Joop: I'm not perplexed but conclude that formulating a paradox is the only solution for two phenomena that are both true on the absolute level and are difficult to combine. I'm not afraid of paradoxes. And I knew already about the two (levels of) truths. Your solution is saying that one of the two (metta and karuna can not be given to a 'it') is only true at the conventional level. Ven. Samahita: "... there are impersonal benevolent mental constructions as compassion etc." Compassion is something of one set of five heaps of clinging (let's give this set the code 'me') for another set of five heaps of clinging (let's give that set the code 'him'). When you mean the set with the code 'me' when you talk about 'imporsonal' then I agree with you. But when you men the set with the code 'him' when you talk about 'impersonal' then I disagree. Why? Because it can liberate me when I realize that there is no 'me' in abolute sense, when I really can apply the anatta-doctrine to myself. But it does not liberate me when I perceive another sentient being as a thing, as five heaps; I see him suffering (for example a hungry child) and that causes my karuna that is at the same moment the karuna in me in general (impersonal) and the karuna for this suffering being (personal). Being totally impersonal is immoral, autistic, asocial: - the Buddha was not impersonal at all; - a thing (for example a stone) I can give a push when I want to pass it without taking care if I hurt that stone; but for a sentient being I had to take care. Or do you mean hurting somebody can only happen at conventional level? When you have questions about this ideas, I will try to answer them. Metta Joop > _There are Two levels of Truth:_ > 1: The Conventional (such daily speech & what all regards as normal) > 2: The Absolute (such as what really exists behind the appearance..) > > Is is *Conventionally True,* that there are beings of compassion etc... > Simultaneously & without inconsistency (as another reference frame): > Is is *Absolutely True*, that there are no same 'beings' yet still there > are impersonal benevolent mental constructions as compassion etc... > > IOW: On the purely linguistic level there are both! > a conventional reality and an absolute reality... > > From the indispensable: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud- dict/dic_idx.htm > > > Buddhist Dictionary > > > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, > by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA > > *Desana:* 'exposition' of the doctrine, may be either an exposition true > in the highest sense/ (paramattha-desaná);/ or it may not be true in the > highest, but only in the conventional sense /(vohára-desaná)./ > > *paramattha */(-sacca, -vacana, -desaná):/ 'truth (or term, exposition) > that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the > 'conventional truth' /(vohára-sacca), /which is also called 'commonly > accepted truth' /(sammuti-sacca;/ in Skr: /samvrti-satya)./ The Buddha, > in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and > sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance > whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence > is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or > beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be > found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of > the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the > ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech /(vohára- vacana)./ > > It is one of the main characteristics of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, in > distinction from most of the Sutta Pitaka, that it does not employ > conventional language, but deals only with ultimates, or realities in > the highest sense /(paramattha-dhammá). /But also in the Sutta Pitaka > there are many expositions in terms of ultimate language > /(paramattha-desaná),/ namely, wherever these texts deal with the > groups/ (khandha), /elements /(dhátu) /or sense-bases / (áyatana), /and > their components; and wherever the 3 characteristics /(ti- lakkhana,/ > q.v.) are applied. The majority of Sutta texts, however, use the > conventional language, as appropriate in a practical or ethical context, > because it "would not be right to say that 'the groups' /(khandha)/ feel > shame, etc." > > It should be noted, however, that also statements of the Buddha couched > in conventional language, are called 'truth' /(vohára-sacca),/ being > correct on their own level, which does not contradict the fact that such > statements ultimately refer to impermanent and impersonal processes. > > The two truths - ultimate and conventional - appear in that form only in > the commentaries, but are implied in a sutta-distinction of 'explicit > (or direct) meaning' /(nítattha,/ q.v.) and 'implicit meaning (to be > inferred)' /(neyyattha). /Further, the Buddha repeatedly mentioned his > reservations when using conventional speech, e.g. in D. 9: "These are > merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use > in the world, which the Perfect Qne (Tathágata) uses without > misapprehending them." See also S. I. 25. > > The term /paramattha,/ in the sense here used, occurs in the first para. > of the Kathávatthu, a work of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (s. Guide, p. 62). > (App: vohára). > > The commentarial discussions on these truths (Com. to D. 9 and M. 5) > have not yet been translated in full. On these see K N. Jayatilleke, > Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge (London, 1963), pp. 361ff. > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct > <....> 48414 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Expanding the list of ayatanas? jonoabb Hi Herman (and others in this thread) Coming in rather late on this thread, I'm afraid ... Egbert wrote: >Hi all, > >There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the >gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not >hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate >hearing where there was none. > >Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? One question to consider here is whether cochlear implants allow the person to hear, that is to say, to directly experience sound, or whether they allow the person to interpret the impact of sound waves on the body door in such a way that they can deduce the words spoken. Since I know nothing about cochlear implants, I'm not going to suggest one or the other. Perhaps someone here knows how these implants work. Jon 48415 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:47am Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Joop - > > I am interested to work with you so we may find an "intelligent answer" > to your paradox. However, we must perform the first step which is > redefining of your paradox, so that it is crytally clear to both of us. If it is > not very clear then it'd become a stumbling block -- so we must remove it first. > ... Dear Tep Thanks for your trying to help me. But when you end your messages with "Let's continue until we can eliminate the paradox -- which is based on a wrong view (a sankhara)", then our discussion is in trouble because you think I have a wrong view and I don't. Partly I answered to you in my reaction today to the message of Ven Samahita, who is so creative to give every message a new thread- subject-description. Tep: (1) I think we say that everybody is a walking-talking five aggregates that are anicca and dukkha. But we have not yet agreed on the anatta part yet, right? Joop: No to the first assumption of your question. I think the Buddha has not spoken in absolute, in ontological terms. His only intention was to liberate the being that listened to Him. So I can only apply the 'five aggregates' to myself, not to somebody else! Tep: (2) Also, am I correct to say that you see and agree that the five "heaps", or "clusters", are objects of clinging that lead to dukkha, according to the Dependent Origination? Joop: I know others beings have to do like me with the truth of dukkhoa, anicca and anatta. And how do I know that? Empathy, like the Buddha had before He left His family and home. 'Empathy' is linked with I some months ago called the 'social citta' (so part of nama and aspect of the ultimate truth) I will not put the question in the way you do because - again - it's inbedded in a ontological statement. The terms you use I will only apply to myself because I know the Buddha used them to liberate me; they had not the intention as a kind of metaphysical absolute humanless truth. (By the way better not say "five heaps or four basic elements" because the basic elements are part of rupa and that's one of the five way; and I think 'element' is a translation that gives misunderstandings.) I agree that my paradox is not the most elegant solution for "I can not have metta and karuna for a thing". But the assumption that I have a wrong view is also not the solution. Metta Joop 48416 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 1:01am Subject: Unintentional Action...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Phenomena which are Effects, Cause Effects or Neither: The blessed Buddha said: 1: There are States, which are Effects... 2: There are States, which cause Effects... 3: There are States, which are neither Effects, nor cause Effects... Unintentional (kiriya) action (kamma), being neither advantageous (kusala) nor detrimental (akusala), falls in the third category as neither being itself an effect, nor causing any effects (vipaka)... Other phenomena in this third category are all inanimate Forms, and the unconditional & unconstructed element of Nibbana... Source: The 1st AbhiDhamma Book: Dhammasanghani: Classification of States. The Enumeration of Ultimate Realities. Tr. by U Kyaw Khine. 1999. Sri Satguru Publications. Delhi. ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. nilovg Hi Tep, op 31-07-2005 23:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > To summarize your answer to the question, I think it says that both sila and > sati are interdependently developed together: i.e. developed indriya > samvara sila leads to developed sati, and vice versa. Therefore, when > sila is near perfect, then sati is also near fulfilment. Finally, when sila is > perfected, satipatthana is fulfilled at the same time without practicing > according to the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Is my understanding without a > flaw? > > BTW, what is Howard's spiral? It sounds like a huge tornado. ------- N: We could ask him again. There is a development of wholesome qualities in phases but at the same time these phases are intertwined. In other words, we cannot say: first this, then that and we should not see it as a lineair development, but rather as a spiral. I thought of this while considering what Kh Sujin had said about the phases of knowing the noble Truths: 1:sacca ñaana, 2:kicca ñaana and 3:kata ñaana. 1: you gain a firm understanding what the Path is and what has to be known. 2: the actual practice, 3 the realization. Even at 3 you do not drop no 1, but no 1 deepens. This is just an example. Now about siila. This can develop along with satipatthana. You say: perfected, satipatthana is fulfilled at the same time without practicing according to the Mahasatipatthana Sutta.> What is explained in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta are the object of satipatthana, there is no limit to these. The sutta points to mindfulness and understanding of whatever dhamma appears. We cannot separate satipatthana from the objects of satipatthana. Through satipatthana sila becomes purer, without any idea of self, and also, satipatthana can be reckoned as siila. See the four purities of siila. Think of the guarding of the sense-dooors, indriya samvara siila. Do you see the intertwining, the spiral? I quote what I wrote before to Lars: < In Ch I, 19, the ³Visuddhimagga² quotes the ³Path of Discrimination², where we read about all the different levels of síla. Included in síla are the subduing of the defilements which are the ³hindrances², the development of concentration and the different stages of jhåna, and also the stages of insight. We read, for example, about the stages of vipassanå: Through contemplation of impermanence in the case of perception of permanence... Through contemplation of dukkha in the case of perception of pleasure... through contemplation of not-self in the case of perception of self... through contemplation of dispassion in the case of delighting...virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Dispassion is the result of vipassanå ñåùa. We read further on that included in síla are also the four stages of enlightenment up to arahatship when all defilements are eradicated and there are no conditions for their arising again.> When people read about the order of: siila, samaadhi and pannaa, it seems very simple and clear. They think of first keeping the precepts, but, there is more to it. There is always more to it. Just reading suttas without any background of Abhidhamma and Commentary may lead to oversimplification. It is easier to just read simple texts, but then one overlooks the deep meaning. That is why I am personally always inclined to go to a Co. when a sutta is quoted. It is tempting to think that the sutta is simple, but we forget that we are not like people in the Buddha's time who could hear the dhamma straight from him and had therefore less misunderstandings. Even saying: first keep the precepts is not right. The sotaapanna perfectly keeps the precepts, because he has developed right understanding, is accomplished in it. But only the arahat has reached perfection of understanding. Nina. 48418 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] D.O. - Azita nilovg Dear Azita, When I got up this morning, I was thinking of you, that I had missed you. I wanted to write to you and ask whether you are in good health. When I checked my mail I saw your post. Rob M has given you all the details. It is very complex, I usually try to avoid this subject. When we are talking now, reading mails, or typing, there are different contacts accompanying the citta. In the D.O. contact accompanying vipaakacitta is meant. Seeing is vipaakacitta and it is accompanied by contact, phassa. This is dependent on the sensebase that is eyesense. If there were no eyesense there could not be this contact. Eyesense is produced by kamma throughout life. Rob M says: The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye- contact, etc.) through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence / Nondisappearance condition **** As to Prenascence condition, a ruupa that conditions naama has to arise just before, because ruupa is weak at its arising moment. Faculty condition: indriya paccaya. Indriya is a leader in its own field. Eyesense is the leader in the field of seeing, it is a controlling faculty or indriya. Disassociation condition: eyesense is rupa and contact is naama, they are of a completely different nature, they are not closely associated such as citta and cetasika. Presence / Nondisappearance condition: these two conditions always go together. The eyesense that arose just before the seeing that is dependent on it, has not fallen away yet, it is still present, so that it is a condition for seeing and its accompanying contact. I am glad you still sign with good cheer. Nina op 01-08-2005 00:58 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > > Salayatana pacccaya phasso - dependent on the sixfold base arises > contact. > Is this contact the cetasika Phassa? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > 48419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kundaliyasutta and Co. part 1. nilovg Hi Tep and herman, interesting points. op 01-08-2005 04:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > In (I) we are not told how to not become excited by an agreeable form > we have seen. > In (II) we are not told how to abandon bodily misconduct, etc. ----- N: By the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. Even when we become excited by an agreeable form we can gradually learn to understand excitement as a conditioned nama, and at that moment we see it as less important. It makes me think of what the Buddha said to Rahula: become like the earth and agreeable and disagreeable objects will not keep on obsessing you. But Rahula was on his way to become an arahat. The development of paññaa is a gradual process and if we forget that it is the task of sati and paññaa to develop, not us, we may try all sorts of things to avoid akusala. This will be counteractive. Nina. 48420 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:16am Subject: Re: Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Herman, I'm glad you approved of my post. Thank you for saying so. ---------------------- <. . .> H: > Perhaps it is an old hobby horse of mine, but I wanted to find out if you and I see the following in the same way. The main thesis of your post is that there are only dhammas. Which is a great reminder at any time of day. It may well be just a particular quirk in my thinking (my thinking being one of my gravest afflictions) but I see "dhamma" as a sort-of duality. It is one coin with two sides. When I read the word dhamma, I tend to focus on the experiential side. A dhamma is an experience. There is only experience, whether through body-door or through mind door. This is all there is. ---------------------- I'm with you so far, except I wouldn't say a dhamma was an experience. A moment of consciousness is an experience, and it is composed of several dhammas. ------------------------------------------ H: > But when focusing on this one side of the coin only, it is possible to lose sight of what makes us humans different from other sentient beings. And that is an understanding of conditionality. And you do mention conditionality in your post, so we may well share the same outlook. ------------------------------------------ Yes. where there are dhammas there is conditionality - and vice versa. If there were a better slogan than, "There are only dhammas," it would be my old favourite; "I have taught you, O bhikkhus, to see conditionality everywhere in all things." (M III (PTS), p.19; S III, p. 103) -------------------------- H: > Not only is a dhamma an experience, but a dhamma is also all those things that bring that experience about. That is the other side of the coin. Like a moth, we can experience heat and light. Unlike a self-imolating moth, we can understand conditionality, and we can avoid the fire. And therein lies the benefit of a human birth. We can come to understand the real nature of our existence, and leave that behind if that is considered desirable. (rest assured I am not talking with any residue of depression or craving for non-existence). So a dhamma is not only its experience, it IS also its cycle of (co)dependent origination. When speaking about there only being dhammas, are we on the same wavelength? ------------------------------ Absolutely! Thanks for that, Herman, it has been nice agreeing with you. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > Like Nina, I thought this was a very good post. It set internal bells > going off left, right and centre. > 48421 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:44am Subject: Re: Neither stable nor autonomically controllable ... !!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - You wrote : > Dear Tep > > Thanks for your trying to help me. But when you end your messages > with "Let's continue until we can eliminate the paradox -- which is > based on a wrong view (a sankhara)", then our discussion is in > trouble because you think I have a wrong view and I don't. > > I agree that my paradox is not the most elegant solution for "I can > not have metta and karuna for a thing". But the assumption that I > have a wrong view is also not the solution. > Tep: Please forgive me for calling your paradox as being based on a wrong view. But, if the view were right, then there would have been no paradox from the beginning. On the other hand, "my" view is not the right view either. Because if my view were right, I would have become a Sotapanna already. So let's call off the "working together", because it would be like two blind men trying to understand the "elephant". Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Joop - > > > > I am interested to work with you so we may find an "intelligent > answer" to your paradox. However, we must perform the first step which is redefining of your paradox, so that it is crytally clear to both of > us. If it is not very clear then it'd become a stumbling block -- so we must remove it first. 48422 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - I was glad to see your posts (a flux of them) again this morning. You must have been too busy or demotivated by something. Anyway, you are back and that is very good. > Jon : > I agree also with the idea of consummation in virtues as one of the > goals, and a more immediate one than final enlightenment. But I don't > think the lack of such perfection should distract us from the > development of insight; otherwise we are in effect putting off the > development of insight to a future time. Does this make sense to you? > Tep: I am pleased that we have reached more agreement these days, although it has been mostly the kind of agreements with a "But". Yes, it makes a great sense not to wait. By trial and error we'll get better each passing day, the process of learning is something like what Nina called the "Howard's Spiral". Thank you for continuing to communicate and give me a chance to become a better communicator. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Tep: > >Fortunately the Buddha's Teaching in this sutta [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] > >is not that rigid. You're right to say "But I do not read the texts as saying > >that insight can only be developed once virtue has been perfected..". > >The key is in cetana -- for example, once you become dispassionate > >(endowed with, or fulfilled with viraga) then even with no cetana to > >realize the knowledge & vision of release, you will realize it -- i.e. it is > >guaranteed by the Buddha. > > > >Of course, there is no rule (laid by the Buddha) against starting with > >vipassana bhavana when we are not yet "fulfilled" with virtues. But a > >person who starts at intellectual understanding of the ti-lakkhana and > >stays there without being endowed with viraga can only wish or intend > >to realize the knowledge and vision of release. And, unfortunately, > >there is no guarantee of the realization for such a person, according to > >this sutta. > > > > I agree with all you have said so far. > > >In my opinion, starting anywhere doesn't matter. The point is that you > >must be dispassionate first before the realization. And the question is > >how to become dispassionate. > > > >Now, if you work your way backward to find the condition that > >guarantees dispassionate, you'll find 'yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana', and > >so on to consummation in virtues. That, to me, is an Q.E.D. that it is best > >to shoot for consummation in virtues one day, no matter where you > >started. > > > > I agree also with the idea of consummation in virtues as one of the > goals, and a more immediate one than final enlightenment. But I don't > think the lack of such perfection should distract us from the > development of insight; otherwise we are in effect putting off the > development of insight to a future time. Does this make sense to you? > > >Thank you for being one of the "perfect gentlemen" of this group. > > > > Thanks, Tep. I think everyone on this list makes an effort to be > restrained, and they do so out of consideration for others who share a > genuine interest in the teachings. Without that restraint, we would not > be able to benefit to the extent we do. > > Jon 48423 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 459 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. When there are vithi cittas arising in them there are different mental impulsive consciousness in these individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagams or anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. new sakadaagams or sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapams or sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. new sotapams or sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala The first 10 puggalas or 10 individuals have been discussed in the previous posts. There are 2 individuals left to be discussed. 11. sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala a) 12 akusala cittas b) 8 mahaakusala cittas --- 20 javana cittas altogether 20 javana cittas can arise in these individuals of sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala. Other 35 javana cittas never arise in these individuals. 12. duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala a) 12 akusala cittas b) 8 mahaakusala cittas -- 20 javana cittas can arise in these individuals. All other 35 javana cittas never arise in these individuals. Even though these 12 individuals are being talked there actually is no being or na human or no deva or no brahma at all. There are only ruupa dhamma and naama dhamma as ultimate realities. Any other things that are not naama or ruupa are not realities. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48424 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 4:42am Subject: Re: D.O. - Azita gazita2002 Dear Nina, RobK and RobM, thank you all for your help, and I agree with you Nina, it is a very complex subject. BTW, I am well and just haven't been at the computor very much. It is winter here and its the time to be outside a lot bec. summer is too hot to do anything very much. You say that in the D.O. phassa accompanying vipakacitta is what is meant. This makes sense to me and it has also made phassa more 'real' for me. I didn't really understand Phassa, I still feel vague about a lot of the cetasikas. When I 'try' to understand it feels like it slips further away; I sometimes think it better to just let it go and occasionally there will be an 'ahh ha, that's what that means' - but mostly I just forget )-: As for conditionality, I find this difficult. There seems to be so many conditions that make up just this present moment, but I don't stress about it, I find it exciting that maybe one day I will really understand it - maybe. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > When I got up this morning, I was thinking of you, that I had missed you. I > wanted to write to you and ask whether you are in good health. When I > checked my mail I saw your post. > Rob M has given you all the details. It is very complex, I usually try to > avoid this subject. > When we are talking now, reading mails, or typing, there are different > contacts accompanying the citta. In the D.O. contact accompanying > vipaakacitta is meant. Seeing is vipaakacitta and it is accompanied by > contact, phassa. This is dependent on the sensebase that is eyesense. If > there were no eyesense there could not be this contact. Eyesense is produced > by kamma throughout life. > > Rob M says: > The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye- > contact, etc.) through: > - Support condition > - Prenascence condition > - Faculty condition > - Disassociation condition > - Presence / Nondisappearance condition > **** > As to Prenascence condition, a ruupa that conditions naama has to arise just > before, because ruupa is weak at its arising moment. Faculty condition: > indriya paccaya. Indriya is a leader in its own field. Eyesense is the > leader in the field of seeing, it is a controlling faculty or indriya. > Disassociation condition: eyesense is rupa and contact is naama, they are of > a completely different nature, they are not closely associated such as citta > and cetasika. > Presence / Nondisappearance condition: these two conditions always go > together. The eyesense that arose just before the seeing that is dependent > on it, has not fallen away yet, it is still present, so that it is a > condition for seeing and its accompanying contact. > > I am glad you still sign with good cheer. > Nina 48425 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 upasaka_howard Hi, KKT - This is a very complete and interesting answer. There is no question that there is willing. But our willing is always conditioned at least by present and past circumstances in our individual mindstreams, don't you think? Typically, a primary condition for it is tanha, but certainly not always. As to "free" will, well, that is a matter of what one means by 'free'. If it means unconditioned, I think that is not so. All ordinary mental operations, including cetana, are conditioned. In that regard, I'm not clear on the meaning of a theory of *non-deterministic* causal conditioning presented along with a notion of free will by the Buddha that you mention at the end of your post (copied below). Does "non-deterministic" imply random? And, BTW, what sort of "free will" that is random and unconditioned is desirable to anyone? If nothing else, we require that our willing, to be valued by us, be conditioned by our wishes (whether the wishes are mired in self or are a chanda free of self), don't we? With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/1/05 12:15:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, phamdluan@... writes: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, KKT - In a message dated 7/31/05 5:05:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phamdluan@a... writes: KKT: To counter the extreme view "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught that there is FREE-WILL. ==================== Please, where did he teach that? With metta, Howard KKT: Here is an extract from "The Message of the Buddha" by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory from Determinism, he also faced the question of free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told him that he was of the opinion that there was no free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and asked him how he could say such a thing when he himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up to the Buddha and walk away from him. On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is such a thing as 'an element of initiative' (arabbha-dhatu), and as a result one can observe beings acting with initiative and this says the Buddha is what is called 'the free-will of people' (sattanam atta-karo). He also goes on to say that there is 'an element of origination' (nikkama-dhatu), an 'element of endeavour' (parakkama-dhatu), an 'element of strength' (thama-dhatu) and an 'element of perseverance' (thiti-dhatu) and an 'element of volitional effort' (upakkama-dhatu), which makes beings of their own accord act in various ways, and that this showed that THERE WAS SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the problem of free-will at the time and reiterated THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. There are certain things beyond our powers but there are at the same time certain powers which one can exercise whithin limits. For example, I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary my speed of utterance within limits merely to show that I have the power to do this. It is this power that we all have within limits for refraining from evil and doing good. The more we exercise this power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire. Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. As a result Buddhism has been represented by some Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma as well as the doctrine of causation. KKT /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48426 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 nidive Hi KKT, > But the problem is: > WILL, like any other thought, > is CONDITIONED. Therefore, > the so-called FREE-WILL cannot be FREE! > THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM > OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT > THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY > SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. If free-will were "wholly conditioned", then there would be no new kamma created, we would not have been reborn endlessly, and we would not even need to come to DSG to seek for answers. But free-will is not "wholly conditioned". If you are truthful enough to yourself, you know that. Yet free-will is not self, nor implies a self. "Free-will" is just a series of mental actions over a lifetime. Mental actions are impermanent. They don't last, they don't persist. Yet, some foolish people might want to seek a WHO that is behind those mental actions. They won't find one. If they do, they are deluded. 48427 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 7:46am Subject: Satipatthaana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 satipatthanas. There are 4 contemplations. Satipatthaana = sati + pa + thaana Sati means 'remembrance to attend good object' 'mindfulness cognising good object'. Sati is like watcherman. Sati is like a tower-watcher. Sati is like a guardian. Sati is like a guard. Sati serves as a reminder or reminding person. Pa means 'along' 'after' 'behind' 'detail' 'in detail'. Thaana means 'place' 'station' 'work place' 'site' 'location' 'destinated point or directed point' Satipatthaana is 'remembrance to attend at specific place in detail or as it goes'. It can be called as 'vipassanaa'. Vi means 'distingusihingly' 'distinctly' 'particularly' especially' and passanaa means 'contemplation'. There are 4 kinds of satipatthaana or 4 kinds of contemplation. They are 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplations on body' 2. vedanaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplation on feeling' 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplation on consciousness' 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplation on dhamma' The Buddha said, 'These 4 satipatthaanas are ''the only way 1. to cleanse the mind-dirt or defilements to purity, 2. to overcome sorrow and lamentation, 3. to distinguish the fire of suffering and mental pain, 4. to attain path-knowledge, and 5. to see nibbana in sight.' Which four? The above 4. a) there are 261 contemplations on body b) there are 30 contemplations on feeling c) there are 51 contemplations on consciousness d) there are 108 contemplations on dhamma ----------------- 450 contemplations in total a) 261 contemplations on body There are 14 contemplations on body and there are 261 sub- contemplations on body. 1) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2) 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4) 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5) 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 1' 7) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 2' 8) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 3' 9) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 4' 10) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 5' 11) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 6' 12) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 7' 13) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 8' 14) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 9' ----- 261 contemplations on body (been explained) b) 30 contemplations on feeling 1) 9 contemplations on feeling of 'self' 2) 9 contemplations on feeling of 'others' 3) 9 contemplations on feeling of 'both self & others' 4) 3 extra contemplation on origination, dissolution, and both ---- 30 contemplations on feeling (been explained) 9 contemplations are 3 contemplations on 1.dukkha, 2.sukha, 3. adukkhamasukha, 3 contemplations on 1. saamisa dukkha or dukkha related to kaama-bait, 2. saamisa sukha, 3. saamisa adukkhamasukha, 3 contemplations on 1. niraamisa dukkha or dukkha not related to kaama- bait, 2. niraamisa sukha, 3. niraamisa adukkhamasukha. c) 51 contemplations on consciousness 1) 16 contemplations on consciousness in self 2) 16 contemplations on consciousness in others 3) 16 contemplations on consciousness in 'both self and others' 4) 3 extra contemplations on origination, dissolution, and both ----- 51 contemplations on consciousness 16 contemplations are 1. this is raaga-citta 2. this is dosa-citta 3. this is moha-citta 4. this is non-raaga citta 5. this is non-dosa citta 6. this is non-moha citta 7. this is withdrawn citta (thina-middha) 8. this is wandering citta (uddhacca) 9. this is jhana citta or mahaggata citta 10.this is non-jhana citta or amahaggata citta or kaama citta 11.this is inferior citta (sauttara citta) 12.this is superior citta (anuttara citta) 13.this is concentrated citta (samahita) 14.this is non-concentrated citta (asamahita citta) 15.this is released citta (vimutta citta) 16.this is non-released citta (avimutta citta). d) 108 contemplations on dhamma 1. 25 contemplations on hindrance (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregate (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-base (ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths (sacca) ----- 108 contemplations on dhamma [There are 99 contemplations on sacca or 4 Noble Truths. This may be explained if there is time.] All these [ 4 contemplations or 4 satipatthaana ] have been explained in related posts. These are just pure dhamma. When these dhamma are seen there is no way to arise akusala. The Buddha described these to bhikkhus while residing in Kuru places or while wandering around villages of Kuru country where the biggest was called Kammaasadhamma village. These do not means 'one has to practise one after another in any serial order'. But it is apparent that as these dhamma are higher dhamma and it is very hard for beginners or fresh students to follow. That is why The Buddha already included 'Idha bhikkhu'. This means that 'the bhikkhu' has well been taught and instructed which dhamma has what meaning and how to deal with them in many other suttas already taught in other places. When one is contemplating on any of these dhamma then he can be said to be proliferating wisdom, proliferting remembrance on these dhamma, liberated temporarily, not depending on anything, not clinging on anything. If anyone is following this Path exactly they will be enlightened in 7 years. Or even in 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year. Or if follow the Path exactly they will be enlightened in 7 months, or even in 6 months, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 month or even in a half-month. Leave alone half-month, if this Path is followed exactly one will be enlighted in 7 days in the least. This is what Bhagavaa said. If someone has not been enlightened in 7 years, this is quite evident that he or she is not following the Path exactly. If someone has practised vipassana for more than 30 years and he or she is still having aversion or dosa then he or she is not following the Path in the exact way as The Buddha described. Enlightenment here includes 2 path-knowledge. One may attain arahatta magga naana. If not he or she will attain anagami magga naana at least. Someone has practised and followed the Path (as he or she would say) and is still having aversion or dosa then this already means that he or she did not follow exactly. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense nilovg Hi Larry, op 01-08-2005 00:44 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > op 31-07-2005 17:08 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > a prompt is a verbal or bodily intimation rupa." > Why not? If someone says, "Nina, wash your face", isn't that a prompt; > isn't it an intimation? Please give an example of a prompt. ------ N: Yes, being urged includes someone else's intimation, but we should remember that prompted and unprompted indicate the nature of a citta that has arisen because of its own conditions including the wholesome or unwholesome inclinations that were accumulated. The conditions for being prompted and unprompted are complex. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A.p. 31) about kusala cittas: When the climate is too hot or your food is bad it influences the kusala citta. It may not be spontaneous but rather weak, hesitating. Once before I gave you the example of the Buddha exhorting people to be mindful, but it depends on their accumulations whether they can follow this with kusala citta that is strong and full of confidence or not. We read T.A. p. 28 about someone who Someone else's intimation is one condition among many other conditions. Moreover it pertains to kusala cittas and akusala cittas (excluding moha-muulacittas). The washing of one's face is a situation, and there are countless cittas as Htoo also stressed. Nina. 48429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. - Azita nilovg Dear Azita, Of course, it is hard to understand phassa. It is not only vipaaka, but in D.O. vipaaka is meant. It accompanies each citta and thus it can be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. You are right we should not try to catch phassa. How could we clearly know it if we do not understand yet the difference between nama and rupa. Nina. op 01-08-2005 13:42 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > > You say that in the D.O. phassa accompanying vipakacitta is > what is meant. This makes sense to me and it has also made phassa > more 'real' for me. I didn't really understand Phassa, I still feel > vague about a lot of the cetasikas. 48430 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: Lokuttarajjhâna - an Abhidhamma term with no direct counterpart in the Sutta abhidhammika Dear Herman, Steve, Nina, Conni, Sarah, Chris, Jon, Robert K, Mike N and all How are you? Sorry about causing some puzzle regarding my use of the Pali adjective "lokuttaram" for phenomena other than moments of magga and phala consciousnesses. But, I uphold the way I used that adjective. I will answer Herman's questions first, though. Herman wrote and asked: "I just want to get something straight. Is sotapanna or ariya a momentary designation or a permanent designation? Is it a case of once having "seen the light" one is always a sotapanna, no longer able to think like a worldling, or is one a sotapanna or ariyan only at those times when there are the thoughts of a sotapanna or ariyan?" The answer is as follows. Once a Theravada practitioner (i.e, a genuine disciple of Gotama the Buddha) attains Sotaapattimaggo, this attainment is a point of no return. Here is the Buddha's description of a Sotaapanno. "Sujaataa, aananda, upaasikaa kaala`nkataa ti.n.nam samyojanaanam parikkhayaa sotaapannaa avinipaatadhammaa niyataa sambodhiparaaya.naa." Section 1004, Pa.thamagiñjakaavasathasuttam, Sotaapannasamyuttam, Samyuttanikaayo. "Aanada, Sujaataa, the dead lay female disciple, due to running out of the three yokes, was a Sotaapanna incapable of falling to miserable rebirths, having unalterable destiny for further awakenings in terms of higher magga cittas and phala cittas." So, Herman, it is a case of once having "seen the light", one is always a Sotaapanna, no longer able to think like a worldling, as you put it. I will answer Steve's questions soon. With kind regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Suan, Thanks very much indeed for the further time you have taken to answer me. It is greatly appreciated. > Herman 48431 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Ven. Sumedha upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/1/05 5:37:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard and All We are now staying in the Sydney city centre. Without the distraction of a surfing beach across the road, I am hoping to find some time to post to the list (although we did manage a trip to Manly beach today). There are 1 or 2 older threads, such as this one, that I had meant to come in on but did not have time to while in Hong Kong, and also of course a number of posts addressed to me that I will try to answer over the next few days. upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Nina - > >In a message dated 7/20/05 5:44:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >vangorko@... writes: >Hi Howard, >I could not trace that Jataka. But Sumedha, the future Buddha Gotama, could >never be an arahat when he declared to the Buddha Diipankara his intention >to attain Buddhahood in the future. >Nina. >======================== > Yes, that was my understanding of the Theravadin perspective. The claim >with regard to the Dipankara Jataka contradicts that, allowing as it does for >an arahant to willfully be reborn multiple times in order to perfect all the >paramitas and eventually attain Buddhahood. It would be good to know what is >actually in that Jataka story in this regard. > > I am wondering if this (mistaken) idea comes from the 'Buddhism in Translations' version of the relevant Jataka. -------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds possible. Is that a book or website? (A book I presume) ------------------------------------ See the references to 'who saintship gains' and 'in a fit condition by the attainment of saintship in that same existence' in the passages below. Jon ==================== Hope your trip continues wonderfully, Jon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48432 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Co. Kundaliyasutta, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 8/1/05 6:03:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: BTW, what is Howard's spiral? It sounds like a huge tornado. ------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ----------------------------------- ------- N: We could ask him again. There is a development of wholesome qualities in phases but at the same time these phases are intertwined. In other words, we cannot say: first this, then that and we should not see it as a lineair development, but rather as a spiral. ====================== This will be clarified if you read over message # 14360. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48433 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: D.O. - Azita robmoult Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear Nina, RobK and RobM, > > thank you all for your help, and I agree with you Nina, it is a > very complex subject. ===== Sorry for overloading you with all those details. You are wise to put aside the details of conditions until the "right conditions" arise :-) For me, this particular link in DO is one of the easiest to understand. Basically, once you have the six senses, then there will naturally arise contact between these six senses and objects. For example, if you have an eye (eye sensitivity) then naturally you are going to have contact with a visible object (contact as part of eye consciousness citta). I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 48434 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 egberdina Hi KKT, Howard, Swee Boon and all, Here is a full copy of the text that KKT refers too. (from www.metta.lk) Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338 8. Attakàrisuttaü- The one who is doing. "Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort, Yes, good one. Brahmin, when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, when there is a going forth....re....,when there is a going forward, ...re.... when there is firmness, ...re... when there is uprightness .....re....when there is endurance, ....re.... when there is a sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Good Gotama, I understand....re.... from today, until life lasts I take refuge in good Gotama. " I would appreciate from anyone other accurate renderings for the construction "This is the being doing and the otherness". Thanks and Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, KKT - > > This is a very complete and interesting answer. There is no question that > there is willing. But our willing is always conditioned at least by present > and past circumstances in our individual mindstreams, don't you think? > Typically, a primary condition for it is tanha, but certainly not always. > As to "free" will, well, that is a matter of what one means by 'free'. If > it means unconditioned, I think that is not so. All ordinary mental > operations, including cetana, are conditioned. In that regard, I'm not clear on the > meaning of a theory of *non-deterministic* causal conditioning presented along > with a notion of free will by the Buddha that you mention at the end of your > post (copied below). Does "non-deterministic" imply random? And, BTW, what sort > of "free will" that is random and unconditioned is desirable to anyone? If > nothing else, we require that our willing, to be valued by us, be conditioned by > our wishes (whether the wishes are mired in self or are a chanda free of self), > don't we? > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 8/1/05 12:15:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > phamdluan@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, KKT - > > In a message dated 7/31/05 5:05:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > phamdluan@a... writes: > > KKT: To counter the extreme view > "NO CONTROL", the Buddha taught > that there is FREE-WILL. > ==================== > > Please, where did he teach that? > > With metta, > Howard > > > > KKT: Here is an extract from > "The Message of the Buddha" > by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: > > While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory > from Determinism, he also faced the question of > free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN > TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin > (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told > him that he was of the opinion that there was no > free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or > others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and > asked him how he could say such a thing when he > himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up > to the Buddha and walk away from him. > > On this occasion, the Buddha says that there is > such a thing as 'an element of initiative' > (arabbha-dhatu), and as a result one can observe > beings acting with initiative and this says the > Buddha is what is called 'the free-will of people' > (sattanam atta-karo). He also goes on to say that > there is 'an element of origination' (nikkama-dhatu), > an 'element of endeavour' (parakkama-dhatu), > an 'element of strength' (thama-dhatu) and an > 'element of perseverance' (thiti-dhatu) and an > 'element of volitional effort' (upakkama-dhatu), > which makes beings of their own accord act in > various ways, and that this showed that THERE WAS > SUCH A THING AS FREE-WILL (Anguttara Nikaya III. > 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). > > All this goes to prove that the Buddha faced the > problem of free-will at the time and reiterated > THE VIEW THAT ASSERTED THE REALITY OF HUMAN FREEDOM > OR FREE-WILL WITHOUT DENYING AT THE SAME TIME THAT > THIS FREE-WILL WAS CONDITIONED BUT NOT WHOLLY > SHAPED OR DETERMINED BY FACTORS WHICH AFFECTED IT. > There are certain things beyond our powers but > there are at the same time certain powers which > one can exercise whithin limits. For example, > I cannot, even if I tried my utmost, speak a > thousand words a minute, but I can certainly vary > my speed of utterance within limits merely to show > that I have the power to do this. It is this power > that we all have within limits for refraining from > evil and doing good. The more we exercise this > power the more freedom and spontaneity we acquire. > > Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism > UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL > CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. > As a result Buddhism has been represented by some > Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of > their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma > as well as the doctrine of causation. > > > KKT 48435 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] correction Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Is it correct that stiffness and torpor (thiina-middha) do not arise with consciousness rooted in ignorance because they only arise with prompted unwholesome consciousnesses, and then only occasionally, and neither consciousness rooted in ignorance is prompted? Larry 48436 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Dhammapada vs 379, 380 upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and KKT, Swee Boon, and all) - In a message dated 8/1/05 6:05:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi KKT, Howard, Swee Boon and all, Here is a full copy of the text that KKT refers too. (from www.metta.lk) Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338 8. Attakàrisuttaü- The one who is doing. "Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort, Yes, good one. Brahmin, when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, when there is a going forth....re....,when there is a going forward, ...re.... when there is firmness, ...re... when there is uprightness .....re....when there is endurance, ....re.... when there is a sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Good Gotama, I understand....re.... from today, until life lasts I take refuge in good Gotama. " I would appreciate from anyone other accurate renderings for the construction "This is the being doing and the otherness". ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, an odd construction! ------------------------------------- Thanks and Kind Regards Herman ========================== This is how I understand this teaching in general: The Brahmin who came to the Buddha was a person unfamiliar with seeing the impersonal, evanescent, conditioned phenomena beyond the usual conventional objects of the world. He only knew the conventional, but didn't know its nature. He also, it seems, somehow and somewhere, came across the idea of anatta - of impersonality, but misunderstood that too. And not understanding anatta, because of not being able to distinguish conventional from actual, and because of not knowing the merely representional nature of the conventional, he came to the doctrine that the conventional person cannot act, that the conventional person cannot choose, that the conventional person cannot (no doubt) meditate or pick morality over immorality or engage in any of the kusala actions taught by the Buddha. But skillfully addressing the Brahmin at a common sense level appropriate to him, he wisely disabused him of his philosophy of hopelessness and helplessness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48437 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] correction Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176 lbidd2 Hi Nina, One other question on ignorance. Does either of the consciousnesses rooted in ignorance have kammic consequences (kamma vipaka)? Larry 48438 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 4:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kundaliyasutta and Co. part 1. egberdina Dear Nina, Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them muchly. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and herman, > interesting points. > op 01-08-2005 04:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > In (I) we are not told how to not become excited by an agreeable form > > we have seen. > > In (II) we are not told how to abandon bodily misconduct, etc. > ----- > N: By the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. Even when we > become excited by an agreeable form we can gradually learn to understand > excitement as a conditioned nama, and at that moment we see it as less > important. It makes me think of what the Buddha said to Rahula: become like > the earth and agreeable and disagreeable objects will not keep on obsessing > you. But Rahula was on his way to become an arahat. > The development of paññaa is a gradual process and if we forget that it is > the task of sati and paññaa to develop, not us, we may try all sorts of > things to avoid akusala. This will be counteractive. > Nina. There is a point in your post, as in the Kundaliyasutta, where the reader could be left wondering "what next?" How does the development of right understanding of nama and rupa happen? How do we gradually learn? I see no reason to assume that the gradual development of sati and panna is bound to happen, anytime in the future, no matter how distant. Samsara has rolled on for literally billions and billions of years. I see no trend or assurance that sati or panna spontaneously develops. I do definitely and very clearly see a trend and assurance that samsara will roll on just as it has been. Because things that lead to becoming lead to becoming, not cessation. What leads to future becoming? Is it not the determination that becoming is desirable? Is there an occasion for determining? Is not each and every moment an occasion for determining? If each determining moment is itself determined (as in absolutely conditioned) then THERE IS NO PATH TO LIBERATION. If each determining moment is undetermined (as in absolute free will) then THERE IS NO LAW OF KAMMA. If there is a middle way, isn't that called Buddhism? :-) Kind Regards Herman 48439 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 2:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 460 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals. 1. arahats or arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. new arahats or arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagams or anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. new anaagams or anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagams or sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. new sakadaagams or sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapams or sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. new sotapams or sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala Any given life is one of these 12 individuals. A life starts with rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta which is a linking consciousness that links the dying-consciousness of the immediate past life and the first life-continuing consciousness of the current life. It sounds like the patisandhi citta stands in the middle and links hand in hand with past dying-consciousness and the present first-life-continuing consciousness. That life ends with life-ending consciousness or life-ceasing consciousness or life-cutting consciousness or cuti citta. In between these two moments are all part of life, whether there are consciousness taking the current present object or there are life-continuing consciousness that have to arise as there are still kamma that dictate to arise. Just before the life-ending consciousness there always is a series of consciousness. That series is the last javana-series or mental impulsive consciousness. Bhavanga citta and cuti citta are resultant consciousness and they do not generate any further results as they themselves are resultant consciousness. So as long as the last javana series generates kamma there always will be life after the death of current life. So the circle will be endlessly repeating as 1. patisandhi citta 2. bhavanaga citta (may alternate with vithi vara ) 3. cuti citta. So there will be 1.2.3.1.2.3.1.2.3.1.2.3. --> infinity --> 1.2.3.1.2.. There is no end at all. But those individuals who are wise enough to break this cycle of 1.2.3 of patisandhi-bhavanga/vithi-cuti will be liberated forever. This liberation is release from binding and it is achievement of nibbana or attainment of nibbana. How to break this cycle of 1.2.3. of patisandhi-bhavanga/vithi-cuti? Once there arises arahatta magga naana this naana or wisdom eradicate all patisandhi-kamma. As this happens when those who eradicate these patisandhi-kamma approach their last moment there arises the last series of consciousness just before cuti-citta or life ending consciousness. As the individuals have attained arahatta magga naana the arising javana cittas in the last moment do not have any defilements and because of clearing of all kamma ( kusala and akusala ) this javana citta series do not generate any further future patisandhi-kamma and so there is no more rebirth after death. This is how the cycle of birth-live-death is broken. The main point here is 'HOW TO OBTAIN ARAHATTA MAGGA NAANA'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support to Dhamma Thread will be helpful for all. 48440 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 2:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 461 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The main point so far we have discussed in 460 messages of Dhamma Thread is 'HOW TO OBTAIN ARAHATTA MAGGA NAANA'. Because this is the main target that we all should aim for. Nibbana is cool. Nibbana cannot be longed for with tanha or craving. To achieve that unconditioned dhamma or asankhata dhaatu is attainment of the ticket 'ARAHATTA MAGGA NAANA'. This ticket will be asked for at the door of Nibbana. This topic is the hardest thing to discuss and it will be time- consuming. So this will be discussed in later posts. So far Dhamma Thread have discussed on many many dhamma and their implications. There are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana as ultimate realities. When each item is checked there will be these dhamma left as sabhaava dhamma. a) 1 citta b) 52 cetasikas c) 18 ruupas d) 1 nibbana --- 72 dhammas There are 89 cittas. Why 89? Because of 89 different combinations of cetasikas with citta. Characterwise, there is only one citta. There are 52 cetasikas characterwise. But these 52 never arise together. And these 52 cetasikas are also not in any storehouse. These 52 cetasikas can be examined in 89 cittas each in turn. So these 52 dhammas are also sabhaava dhamma or natural dhamma like citta,which is also sabhaava dhamma or natural dhamma. Nibbana is also sabhaava dhamma. There are 18 ruupas that are nipphanna ruupa or conditioned dhamma. These 18 ruupas are also sabhaava ruupa and they are sabhaava dhamma. Altogether there are 72 dhammas. These 72 dhammas can be viewed in many different ways as dhamma. There are 4 different sets of combination of these dhamma. They are a) akusala sangaha or 'the stock of unwholesome dhamma' b) missaka sangaha or 'the stock of peer/friend dhamma' c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or 'the stock of companions of enlightenment' d) sabba sangaha or 'the stock of other dhammas' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support to Dhamma Thread will be helpful for all. 48441 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176 nilovg Hi Larry, op 02-08-2005 01:14 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > One other question on ignorance. Does either of the consciousnesses > rooted in ignorance have kammic consequences (kamma vipaka)? ---- N: Yes. The first type, with doubt, can produce rebirth, and the second type, with restlessness does not produce rebirth-consciousness, but it can produce akusala vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. We go back to: Tiika Vis. XIV, 93: -------- L: Is it correct that stiffness and torpor (thiina-middha) do not arise with consciousness rooted in ignorance because they only arise with prompted unwholesome consciousnesses, and then only occasionally, and neither consciousness rooted in ignorance is prompted? ------- N: Yes, correct. These two types are weak, not keen. They are utterly deluded as the Tiika states. Therefore it is not said of these that they are unprompted or prompted. They are not accompanied by sloth and torpor. Nina. 48442 From: nina Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 3:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 177 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 177, doubt. Intro: Doubt, vicikicchaa, is doubt about ultimate realities, about naama and ruupa, about cause and result, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about the attainment of enlightenment. It only arises with the first type of moha-muulacitta which is called: rooted in ignorance, accompanied by doubt (moha-muulacitta vicikicchaa sampayutta). It is affected by moha that does not know the true nature of realities. ------- Text Vis.: Herein, (xlix) 'steadiness of consciousness' is weak concentration (viii) consisting in mere steadiness in occurrence. -------- Tiika (in note 70): ' "Mere steadiness in occurrence" is mere presence for a moment. That it is only "mere steadiness in occurrence" owing to the mere condition for the steadiness of the mind (ceto) is because of lack of real steadiness due to absence of decidedness (nicchaya), and it is incapable of being a condition for such steadiness in continuity (see par. 188) as the steadiness of consciousness stated thus: "like the steadiness of a flame sheltered from a draught" (Ch. XIV,139)' (Pm.495). --------- N: Since doubt is always wavering there cannot be wholesome concentration on an object. Citta is unsteady and it cannot apply itself to daana, siila or bhaavanaa. ------ Text Vis.: It is without wish to cure (vigataa cikicchaa), thus it is 'uncertainty' (vicikicchaa). --------- The text points to a word derivation of vicikicchaa, being without wish to cure (vigataa cikicchaa). The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A., p. 17) states: N: Only paññaa can cure doubt. --------- Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of doubt. Its function is to waver. ------ N: The Tiika explains that doubt or wavering takes various objects. It explains that uddhacca, agitation, whirls about and struggles with regard to one object, and that doubt wavers as to various objects, as is also explained in the Expositor (p. 346). The Expositor (p. 345) states that Œa previous doubt is said to induce a subsequent doubt¹. The Tiika quotes the words, < Is it thus, or is it not; is it this or is it something else?>, in order to show its manner of taking various objects. However, when doubt arises it takes one object at a time, such as visible object and so on, and has doubt about it, as the Tiika explains. It is hesitant and indecisive. ------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as indecisiveness, or it is manifested as taking various sides. ------- N: The Expositor (p. 345) states: ------ Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is unwise attention. It should be regarded as obstructive of theory (see Ch.XVII,52). The rest are as already described. ---------------------------- N: The translator translated pa.tipattiantaraaya as obstructive of theory. However, the meaning is: a danger to pa.tipatti, the practice. It is a danger to the right practice that leads to the end of defilements. Pe Maung Tin translates: Conclusion: Doubt is among the defilements that are classified as hindrances. It obstructs kusala. The Expositor (p. 345) explains the term stiffness of the Dhammasangani used with reference to doubt: <.Mental rigidity Œ is the inability to proceed as deciding respecting the object. Stiffness is the meaning. For perplexity having arisen makes the mind stiff...> As we have seen, each kusala citta is supported by the sobhana cetasika wieldiness. Mental wieldiness is lacking when akusala citta arises. When doubt arises, there is no wieldiness that is necessary in applying oneself to daana, siila or bhaavanaa. Doubt is an obstruction to confidence in kusala. When one doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha or the right Path, there is no confidence to develop right understanding of realities. As we have seen, doubt means exclusion from the cure of knowledge. As right understanding develops, there will be less doubt and more confidence in the Dhamma. When we are seeing, we may not be sure what seeing is, it seems that we are seeing and thinking of what we see at the same time. We are not sure what visible object, the object of seeing, is. When sati does not arise we are confused about nama and rupa and we have doubts. When there is direct understanding of realities there is no doubt, one can directly prove the truth. When the first stage of tender insight is reached there is direct understanding of what naama is and what ruupa is. However, this is not sufficient, insight should continue to develop. The Visuddhimagga explains about seven stages of purity, visuddhi. In Ch XIX it explains that by attaining the second stage of insight, which is the direct realization of naama and ruupa as conditioned dhammas, there is ŒPurity by escaping from all Doubt¹. In the course of the development of insight doubt will wear out until it is completely eradicated by the sotaapanna. The sotaapanna has Œcrossed over doubt², he is assured of reaching final liberation. He has an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem. **** Nina. **** Nina. 48443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta/no control? - Elements nilovg Hi Howard, Herman, and all, I like Howard's elaboration, especially the ending: he > wisely disabused him of his philosophy of hopelessness and helplessness.> This can asnwer some of Herman's questions. The translation is not quite clear. I used the PTS, and also the Thai and co. op 02-08-2005 00:56 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Text: .... Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, > nothing is done by others... > > Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort? --------- N: PTS: Is there such a thing as initiative? Pali: for thing: dhaatu, element. Initiative: aarabbhadhaatu Aarabbha: undertaking or effort, like aarambha, or viriyaarambha. ------ Text: Brahmin, when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a > sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and the > otherness. ------ N: For occasion: dhaatu, element. PTS: this is among men the self-agency, this is the other-agency. Thai: doing for oneself, doing for someone else. ------- Brahmin, when there is a going forth....re....,when there > is a going forward, ...re.... when there is firmness, ...re... when > there is uprightness .....re....when there is endurance, ....re.... > when there is a sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and > the otherness. ------- N: going forth, nikkama-dhaatu: the effort that has the nature (sabhaava) of going away from laziness, according to the Co. Each of the following words denoting a motion, standing or halting are actually all meaning effort. And the word dhaatu is added in the sutta text to each of them. thaama dhaatu, meaning: vigor, steadfastness, strength. PTS : halting. The text above has: uprightness, but all of these words stand for: energy as the Co. states. The element of energy. Energy is a conditioned element devoid of self. Thus in this sutta we find the two kinds of realities: the functional (or conventional) and the ultimate realities (dhaatus) combined. There is no conflict. We can think and talk about ourselves and others, lead our daily life naturally, and at the same time develop more understanding of ultimate truth, of the conditioned dhaatus. Nina. 48444 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles And that existence is only temporary. ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 25 July, 2005 01:06 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi all Further to my post #48123, I have re-read the advice given to Venerable Kaccanagotta at SN 12:15. . I can't see how that advice is consistent with Herman's Anatta1 being the correct way to regard the anatta teaching. For one who sees the origin and cessation of the world with correct wisdom, there are no notions of existence or nonexistence in regard to the world [eg the self exists but is subject to change and stress]. Corrections welcome. Best wishes Andrew T <...> 48445 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles The closest definition we have to day of "Self" that matched what the Buddha was talking about is called "Soul". The Buddha was saying there is no soul. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 24 July, 2005 05:18 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > 1]The self that the teaching on anatta rejects is a self that is not > inconstant, not stressful, not subject to change. > > 2]Some quirky readings of this have turned anatta into "There is no > self that can do anything" and "There is no self that can control > anything". > > The upshot of Anatta1 is that there is no absolute self. > The upshot of Anatta2 is that there is absolutely no self. > > Anatta2 is not found in the suttas, though it is promulgated widely as > a law of the universe. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Hi Herman Thanks for this - I love and envy your clarity of expression. It helps. The topic of anatta is one I do find extremely confusing when I tackle it head-on. All your comments, I can honestly say I identify with. <...> 48446 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi Evan I have to comment about the following points you made: 1.. I think that we would both agree that the aggregates are constantly changing and that there is no permanent core or "self" within that. 2.. Now, whether we define "self" to be the 5 ever-changing aggregates or some non-existent permanent "core" or "essence", it's just a label. 3.. We could agree for instance that "self" should be used to refer to the permanent core which doesn't exist and "delself" (delta + self) to refer to the "self" of the 5 aggregates. 4.. The problem with western society is that it does not fully understand the deeper meaning of self so looking the word up in the dictionary will only give you a very superficial, mundane definition which is not appropriate to this discussion. Point 1 I agree with. Point 2 and 3, I am not sure what you are getting at. Point 4, dictionaries try to standardize definitions so that it is easier for us to communicate. My whole point to the no-self discussion is that we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing. To just run around saying no-such-thing as self and not realize that what you are saying is very relative, is not helping people. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 26 July, 2005 02:48 Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Charles, I don't want to get too bogged down on semantics. I think that we would both agree that the aggregates are constantly changing and that there is no permanent core or "self" within that. Now, whether we define "self" to be the 5 ever-changing aggregates or some non-existant permanent "core" or "essence", it's just a label. We could agree for instance that "self" should be used to refer to the permanent core which doesn't exist and "delself" (delta + self) to refer to the "self" of the 5 aggregates. The problem with western society is that it does not fully understand the deeper meaning of self so looking the word up in the dictionary will only give you a very superficial, mundane definition which is not appropriate to this discussion. <..> 48447 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintentional action! dacostacharles Dear Samahita, Yes we agree that the Arhat may have been a passive instrument. However, even passive instruments have cause and effect assonated with them (some would even say, Good and Evil). It is all relative. In this case we say there is no negative karma, but if one of the Insects was a stolen beloved pet of a rich and powerful anti-Buddhist, the Arhart would have .... to pay, because the dead pet would be the excuse for ... This is what makes Karma relative. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 31 July, 2005 10:35 Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintentional action! Dear Charles DaCosta: Really, no vipaka (future fruits) is created if no intention is involved! It was the insects resulting kamma to be killed just there and then! So had their! prior evil intentions shaped their future destiny ... The Arahat was not 'involved', but just a passive 'instrument' in the mighty selfless net of cause, conditioning and effect ... : - ] <..> 48448 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Advanced Right View ... !!! dacostacharles YES ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: 1.6A ; 1.5A Sent: Sunday, 31 July, 2005 11:49 Subject: [dsg] Advanced Right View ... !!! Friends: The Middle Way of Wise Moderate Ontology: The Blessed Buddha on speculation on existence: This world, Kaccana, is generally chained up by involvement, clinging & attachment to various views! But one of right view neither becomes engaged nor cling to such rigid commitment, clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, nor underlying tendency! He does not take a stand about 'My Self' nor has he any perplexity or doubt about what arises is only Suffering arising, & what ceases is only Suffering ceasing! His assurance about this, is independent of others... In this way, Kaccana, is there advanced right view !!! 'All exists': Kaccana, this is the one extreme.... 'All does not exist'; this is the second extreme !!! Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Thus-Come-Thus-Gone One teaches Dhamma from this Middle: <....> 48449 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? dacostacharles Good. I herd Motivation, intellect, and memory -- instead of contact, attention, and intention. But I can see the explanation is the same CharleD ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 19 July, 2005 13:06 Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? Dear friend sarah abbott who wrote: >S: Mind (mano) is a synonym for citta (consciousness). We read in the >texts such as the Atthasalini about how it's the forerunner of all states. >By 5 things, are you referring to the 5 khandhas? Mind is defined as momentary: Contact (phassa) Feeling (vedana) Perception (sanna) Intention (cetana) Attention (manasikara) Which of these precedes ? (hen or egg question!) Yet: From contact arises in parallel feeling and perception simultaneously. From these, is an intention formed (towards or away from object). From this intention, is attention directed to one of the sense doors. This attention thereby 'inputs' the next event of sense contact. etc. So it is intention, that 'creates' and 'selects' the phenomena, attention then 'fishes out' of reality by sense contacting... So: Yes Mind is the forerunner of all states... Yet more precisely within this compound mind: Intention is the 'initiator' & 'creator' of of all states. The active part so to speak. Thats why I rendered it so. : - ] <..> 48450 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi Herman, IMHO, Steam-winners has abandoned Selfishness and self-centeredness. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 26 July, 2005 03:15 Subject: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Evan and Charles and all, The discussion about "self" has been very useful for me. It has clarified a lot of things. There remains one question for me. A sotapanna is said to be someone who, amongst others, has abandoned self-view. Which self-view is that? The view that there is no absolute self, or the view that there is absolutely no self? My money is on the first one. <...> 48451 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 10:39pm Subject: All Momentary 'Things' are Selfless ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Joop who wrote: "I can not have metta and karuna for a thing". Metta & Karuna & all other mental phenomena are momentary & thus void of 'same self'. The bodies of all 'sentient beings' are impermanent & thus void of any 'same self'. All inanimate forms are impermanent & thus void of any 'same self'. All of this 'name-&-form' are thus only suffering... Thus: Never have there ever been, nor is there now, nor will there ever be any other than selfless 'THINGS' = 'Dhammaa' = 'States' in existence anywhere at all! Clinging is also clinging obstinately to 'my own views' as better! Quite painful is that. And obstructing any progress too... : - ] 48452 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 10:00pm Subject: The Fingernail of Soil ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Not even as much as a Fingernail of Dust Lasts! At Savatthi. Seated to the side, a certain bhikkhu asked the Blessed One: Is there, Venerable Sir, any form, or any feeling, or any perception, or any construction, or any consciousness, that is permanent, stable, eternal, not a changing state, that will remain the same, just like eternity itself ? Then the Blessed One took up a tiny bit of soil on his fingernail and said to that bhikkhu: Bhikkhu, there is not even this much form, feeling, perception, construction, nor consciousness, that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, that will remain the same, just like eternity itself...!!! If there was this much form, feeling, perception, construction, or consciousness, that was permanent, stable, eternal, and not changing, this living of the Noble Life for the utterly complete elimination of all suffering, could not be made known... But because there is not even this much form, nor feeling, nor any perception, nor construction, nor consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, this living of the Noble Life for the complete elimination of all suffering can be made known... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XXII (97); [III 147-9] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 An Ocean of Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Khandha On Clusters! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 48453 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Aug 1, 2005 10:25pm Subject: Selfless is both the internal & external... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Joop wrote: >When you mean the set with the code 'me' when you talk >about 'imporsonal' then I agree with you. >But when you mean the set with the code 'him' when you talk >about 'impersonal' then I disagree...!!! >But it does not liberate me when I perceive another sentient >being as a thing, as five heaps! _Try another application first like this:_ The angry man is yelling verbal abuse at you! Then one thinks: Ohh some five heaps is yelling... How can any anger ever rightly arise towards such impersonal five heaps ??? This liberates from aversion... The opposite liberates from attachment... : - ] Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct 48454 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 4:59am Subject: Re: Mindfulness antony272b2 Hi Rob M and all, I'm responding to the very first post in this thread dated 23rd July. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48048 I offer this link called: "The quality of mindfulness: Setting up the gatekeeper inside" by Ajahn Brahmavamso. Enjoy! http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed070.htm He concludes: "There are, then, these two aspects of mindfulness: the aspect of mindfulness of awareness and the aspect of mindfulness of remembering the instructions." The gatekeeper analogy of mindfulness probably refers to sati- sampajanna (Mindfulness with Clear Comprehension) a topic I need to explore. Thanks for listening. With metta / Antony. 48455 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 5:25am Subject: meeting with Antony Woods - worldly conditions and more.... sarahprocter... Dear Antony & all friends, [I'm writing this from a convenience store because Jon's computer which he brought with him has completely broken down today (with a few posts he'd drafted and was just about to send...and in the process of chasing off to a computer shop for help this eve, he lost a credit card and some cash ;-(.] We really enjoyed meeting you for a drink today...sitting outside with a heater over the table in downtown Sydney. It's now several hours later and I'm tired, so I hope you'll fill in the gaps. Like when we saw RobM recently, I think we covered many topics in a short time -- just an hour. Kamma and vipaka -- we tend to think of our misfortunes and losses as being the result of kamma as in the examples above, but really the vipaka is just a very brief moment of seeing or hearing or moment of experiencing an object through the sense doors. So quickly there is all that paying attention to the 'signs and details' (nimitta & anupyanjanna), to the long story about our difficulties or some situation. Commonly we experience aversion or attachment to these details and are quickly lost in our fantasy world, assuming the problem is the computer or lost items. Really it's the present thinking with ignorance, aversiona and attachment at this moment. While we sat, we heard the siren of an ambulance....Antony, you thought about any possible injuries with compassion and we also talked about how only sound is heard, but again we quickly think of various possibilities. This led onto discussions of what present awareness really is and what various teachers say about this. We discussed awareness as recalling and paying attention to what we are doing as opposed to being aware of present realities such as hearing and sound. Back to kamma - we all have various fears and concerns, such as being in crowds or busy places perhaps and again may think of this in terms of kamma. Again we might say in ordinary language that being bumped or jostled is a bad kamma result, but really we have to face up to our present kilesa (defilements) as being the real problem I think. How did this sound? And then we discussed special sensations or experiences we enjoy and cling to and usually don't see such clinging as any problem or conditioning the dosa (which includes slight uneasiness too) when the patterns change.... Antony, you kindly remembered past discussions I've had with him about generosity and family harmony....secrets at home/discretion/sharing.... Abhidhamma and post-traumatic stress disorder....again more on the problems being at the present moment... Samatha briefly....Jon pointing out that not being able to sit cross-legged is not a problem:) More from Jon about how there are always going to be various stories about what has been and has not been done int he past..we cannot stop thinking and this is not the aim....but understand it for what it is...Likewise, we don't know about the future or what may happen in this life or next....but now we have the chance to 'let go' of the stories and develop awareness. We all agreed what a blessing it is to have access to the Buddha's teachings and you mentioned you had memorised the Mangala sutta. Please share any lines of special importance or any further comments you have on it. Antony, you have an incredible memory for sutta references and even page numbers in texts too!! Please quote the part from MN ??49 or the one you mentioned you'd written to B.Bodhi about. Perhaps someone can comment further. Also, please quote the paragraph you were referring to about Visakka and remind us of the context for your comment. And then there was a sutta in SN you referred to that you liked....as I have no access to books for these few weeks, again please quote from it when you have time with one or two of your comments again. I'm afraid I'm very forgetful. You also gave a great example of Munindra's...and how he had replied that the aim was 'to live simply, not as a simpleton'....please would you give the context again....And then you quoted one or two commments from DSG you'd put in your notebook including the one that started the discussion about realities. I'm sure others would like to hear these. I still haven't read Nina's message on compassion which you liked.....hopefully we'll catch up tomorrow before meeting Herman:-). Nina will also be glad that you now have a hard copy of Budd in D.Life and an mp3 from India to listen to.... And finally, we never know what will happen....results of kamma and so many other conditions...always an opportunity to let go of the past, not cling to the future but to develop more wisdom now, however life turns out for us.... These are disorganised rambles and I'm looking forward to get out of the 'canned music store'... Hope to hear more from you...it's been helpful for me to reflect on our discussions and forget about the computer and lost items:-). Everyone, really appreciating all the great posts in our absence....many thanks. There are a few new members...please introduce yourselves, give a name too:). You may like to look in 'useful posts' in the 'files' section of DSG and scroll down to 'New to the list' and 'Abhidhamma- beginners' if that's suitable. Sadhu?? - welcome, you're obviously not a 'beginner' in terminology and so on....see 'sankharika' or 'prompted' in U.P. too. Apologies for not checking ..if I don't post now, it'll get lost... Metta, Sarah ===== 48456 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] jonoabb Hi Tep (and All) --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Jon - > > I was glad to see your posts (a flux of them) again this morning. You > must have been too busy or demotivated by something. Anyway, you > are back and that is very good. The problem was mainly lack of time, in the run-up to my last day at work, and preparations for this trip. However, there is now another problem, in that my laptop has died on me here in Sydney, and I'll have to send it in for repair tomorrow. Because of our travel itinerary, I won't have it back until late next week ... (Just to compound our problems, I left my wallet with Visa card, bank card and cash in a taxi when chasing around town for replacement parts for the computer, so we are not feeling too joyful at the moment!) > > Jon : > > I agree also with the idea of consummation in virtues as one of the > > goals, and a more immediate one than final enlightenment. But I don't > > > think the lack of such perfection should distract us from the > > development of insight; otherwise we are in effect putting off the > > development of insight to a future time. Does this make sense to you? > > > > Tep: I am pleased that we have reached more agreement these days, > although it has been mostly the kind of agreements with a "But". > > Yes, it makes a great sense not to wait. By trial and error we'll get > better > each passing day, the process of learning is something like what Nina > called the "Howard's Spiral". Yes, there is a kind of spiral the component parts of which are intellectual understanding and direct experience (I would not see the spiral as including 'trial and error'). > Thank you for continuing to communicate and give me a chance to > become a better communicator. And my thanks to you for the same. Jon 48457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: important questions, Herman. nilovg Hi Herman, I find your questions very good for reflection. I do not know whether I can answer all, or whether I can answer them in a satisfactory way. op 02-08-2005 01:33 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > There is a point in your post, as in the Kundaliyasutta, where the > reader could be left wondering "what next?" How does the development > of right understanding of nama and rupa happen? ----- N: It seems like a repetition if I say again: listen, discuss, reflect, read suttas, let the suttas sink in. But I feel that slowy in this way understanding of the level of listening grows. We should not underestimate this intellectual level of understanding, it is the foundation of further development towards direct understanding. Kusala citta that reflects is not alone! It is accompanied by many supporting cetasikas, mental qualities. Such as confidence in kusala, energy, wholesome wish-to-do, cetanaa or wholesome volition, calm, concentration and many others. They arise for a moment and then fall away, but they are accumulated. This means: they are accumulated conditions for the arising again of similar wholesome qualities. That is how the learning process goes on from moment to moment, and from life to life. This is encouraging! ------ H: How do we gradually > learn? I see no reason to assume that the gradual development of sati > and panna is bound to happen, anytime in the future, no matter how > distant. ------- N: As explained above. The citta and cetasikas learn. We do not think of the future, the Buddha said: don't cling to the past, don't cling to the future, be aware of the present moment. As Ken H said many times; there is only the present moment that we can learn. I appreciate all his reminders, they are good for me too. ------- H: Samsara has rolled on for literally billions and billions of years. I > see no trend or assurance that sati or panna spontaneously develops. ------- N: Spontaneously is not the right word. We need all the help we possibly can. We should not waste our time. There is our social life where we should apply the Dhamma when we are with other people. There are many ways of giving and helping. Ways to become less selfish, thinking less of 'our precious personality'. We should be grateful for the understanding we acquired already from the Dhamma, even though it is only intellectual understanding. If we had not heard the Dhamma we would not understand anything about kusala, akusala, the conditions that are operating in our lives, our reactions to pleasant and unpleasant experiences. A long time ago you found the notions of kusala and akusala difficult to understand. If you read the suttas it helps to understand the benefit of kusala and the danger of akusala. --------- H:... What leads to future becoming? Is it not the determination that > becoming is desirable? .... > If each determining moment is itself determined (as in absolutely > conditioned) then THERE IS NO PATH TO LIBERATION. ------ N:Ignorance and clinging lead to becoming. There is a Path. If we try to understand conditions, free will, determination, kamma and result, by reasoning about them, it is not helpful. The Path is the development of understanding, very gradually, and we can verify this. The Path is not reasoning or logic, it is development. ------- H: If each determining moment is undetermined (as in absolute free will) > then THERE IS NO LAW OF KAMMA. > If there is a middle way, isn't that called Buddhism? :-) ------- N: It is beneficial, even necessary to avoid extremes, and that is the middle way. Nina. 48458 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 7:43am Subject: Satipatthaana (02) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 satipatthanas. There are 4 contemplations. They are 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplations on body' 2. vedanaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplation on feeling' 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplation on consciousness' 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplation on dhamma' a) there are 261 contemplations on body b) there are 30 contemplations on feeling c) there are 51 contemplations on consciousness d) there are 108 contemplations on dhamma ----------------- 450 contemplations in total a) 261 contemplations on body There are 14 contemplations on body and there are 261 sub- contemplations on body. 1) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2) 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4) 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5) 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 1' 7) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 2' 8) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 3' 9) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 4' 10) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 5' 11) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 6' 12) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 7' 13) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 8' 14) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 9' ----- 261 contemplations on body (been explained) b) 30 contemplations on feeling 1) 9 contemplations on feeling of 'self' 2) 9 contemplations on feeling of 'others' 3) 9 contemplations on feeling of 'both self & others' 4) 3 extra contemplation on origination, dissolution, and both ---- 30 contemplations on feeling (been explained) c) 51 contemplations on consciousness 1) 16 contemplations on consciousness in self 2) 16 contemplations on consciousness in others 3) 16 contemplations on consciousness in 'both self and others' 4) 3 extra contemplations on origination, dissolution, and both ----- 51 contemplations on consciousness d) 108 contemplations on dhamma 1. 25 contemplations on hindrance (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregate (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-base (ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths (sacca) ----- 108 contemplations on dhamma There are 99 contemplations on sacca or 4 Noble Truths. Contemplations on Noble Truths (saccaanupassanaa) 1. 12 contemplations on 'dukkha saccaa' or 'suffering the truth' 2. 30 contemplations on 'samudaya sacca' or 'cause the truth' 3. 30 contemplations on 'nirodha sacca' or 'cessation the truth' 4. 27 contemplations on 'magga sacca' or 'Path the truth' ----- 99 contemplations on Noble Truth or saccaanupassanaa With Metta, Htoo Naing 48459 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: All Momentary 'Things' are Selfless ... !!! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend Joop who wrote: > ... Dear Ven. Samahita Thanks for the two messages I got from you today. I will react to this one line by line. Ven. S: Metta & Karuna & all other mental phenomena are momentary & thus void of 'same self'. Joop: agree, but this is hardly relevant: thousand times every second metta and karuna can arise and fall away again. Ven. S: The bodies of all 'sentient beings' are impermanent & thus void of any 'same self'. Joop: no problem; and not only the bodies. Ven. S: All inanimate forms are impermanent & thus void of any 'same self'. Joop: no problem. Ven. S: All of this 'name-&-form' are thus only suffering... Joop: no problem but I think the term 'only' can be skipped. Ven. S: Thus: Never have there ever been, nor is there now, nor will there ever be any other than selfless 'THINGS' = 'Dhammaa' = 'States' in existence anywhere at all! Joop: Don't agree. The Buddha had meant this soteriologically, to liberate the person who listens or reads Him. Everybody should apply this to himself, not to his neighbour. And apllied to the Buddha Himself: trying to liberate a sentient being is not treating that being as a thing. Ven. S: Clinging is also clinging obstinately to 'my own views' as better! Quite painful is that. And obstructing any progress too... Joop: That's very true. If I meet somebody who thinks he exists, I will forward your message. In # 48453 you wrote: "Try another application first like this: The angry man is yelling verbal abuse at you! Then one thinks: Ohh some five heaps is yelling... How can any anger ever rightly arise towards such impersonal five heaps ??? This liberates from aversion... The opposite liberates from attachment..." This text is still more a sermon than a contribution to a symmetric discussion but it has an argument that had to do with my statement. But an argument for what: that my statement is logically wrong OR that's more agreeable and better for my equanimity to react as you suggest. In think my reaction in fact will be: I perceive the actor with metta and karuna, and perceive his/her act in a impersonal way. Perhaps we are both in some way right and both in some way wrong. Let's look at the Middel Way: The Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN 12: 15). I quote the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu: " … 'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle." If it's permitted I translate a little: "A suffering being exists … A suffering being doesn't exist …" Metta Joop 48460 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 9:26am Subject: Satipatthaana (03) htootintnaing There are 99 contemplations on sacca or 4 Noble Truths. Contemplations on Noble Truths (saccaanupassanaa) 1. 12 contemplations on 'dukkha saccaa' or 'suffering the truth' 2. 30 contemplations on 'samudaya sacca' or 'cause the truth' 3. 30 contemplations on 'nirodha sacca' or 'cessation the truth' 4. 27 contemplations on 'magga sacca' or 'Path the truth' ----- 99 contemplations on Noble Truth or saccaanupassanaa 1. 12 contemplations on dukkha sacca or 'suffering the truth' 1. this is jati (birth) & it is suffering 2. this is jaraa(ageing)& it is suffering 3. this is marana(death)& it is suffering 4. this is soka (sorrow)& it is suffering 5. this is parideva(lamentation)& it is suffering 6. this is dukkha (physical pain)& it is suffering 7. this is domanassa(mental displeasure)& it is suffering 8. this is upayaasaa(despair)& it is suffering 9. this is appiyehi-sampayogo(association with the dislike)& suffering 10.this is piyehi-vippayogo(dissociation with the like)& suffering 11.this is yampiccham-na-labhati(non-achievement of the wanted)& suff. 12.this is pancupadaanakkhandhaa(5-clinging aggregates)& suffering 2. 30 contemplations on samudaya sacca or 'cause the truth' There are 10 causes in oneself. Sometimes 10 causes in others' selves are perceived as dhamma (cause or samudaya). And sometimes 10 causes in both oneself & others' selves are perceived or contemplated. So there are 30 contemplations on causes. Basically there are 10 causes. These 10 causes are kaama-tanha, bhava-tanha, vibhava-tanha that arise at 1. ajjhatta ayatana or internal sense-base 1. cakkh-ayatana (eye) 2. sota-ayatana (ear) 3. ghana-ayatana (nose) 4. jivha-ayatana (tongue) 5. kaaya-ayatana (body) 6. mana-ayatana (mind) 2. bahiddha ayatana or external sense-base 1. rupa-ayatana (visual sense-base) 2. sadda-ayatana (sound) 3. gandha-ayatana (smell) 4. rasa-ayatana(taste) 5. photthabba-ayatana (touch-sense) 6. dhamma-ayatana (mind-object). 3. panca-vinnaana cittas and mano-vinnaana cittas 1.cakkhu-vinnaana citta or eye-sense-consciousness 2. sota-vinnaana citta or ear-sense-consciousness 3. ghana-vinnaana citta or nose-sense-consciousness 4. jivha-vinnaana citta or tongue-sense-consciousness 5. kaaya-vinnaana citta or body-sense-consciousness 6. mano-vinnaana citta or mind-sense-consciousness 4. salasamphassa or 6 contacts 1. cakkhu-samphassa or eye-contact 2. sota-samphassa or ear-contact 3. ghaana-samphassa or nose-contact 4. jivha-samphassa or tongue-contact 5. kaaya-samphassa or body-contact 6. mano-samphassa or mind-contact 5. salaasamphassajaa vedana or 'contact-born feeling' 1. cakkhu-samphassajaa vedana or eye-contact-born feeling 2. sota-samphassajaa vedana or ear-contact-born feeling 3. ghaana-samphassajaa vedanaa or nose-contact-born feeling 4. jivhaa-samphassajaa vedanaa or tongue-contact-born feeling 5. kaaya-samphassajaa vedana or body-contact-born feeling 6. mano-samphassajaa vedanaa or mind-contact-born feeling 6. salaasannaa or 6 perceptions 1. rupa-sannaa or visual perception 2. sadda-sannaa or auditory perception 3. gandha-sanna or olfactory perception 4. rasa-sanna or gustatory perception 5. photthabba-sanna or tactile perception 6. dhamma-sannaa or thought perception 7. salasancetanaa or 6 volitions/ 6 formations 1. rupa-sam-cetana or visual volition 2. sadda-sam-cetana or auditory volition 3. gandha-sam-cetana or olfactory volition 4. rasa-sam-cetana or gustatory volition 5. photthabba-sam-cetanaa or tactile volition 6. dhamma-sam-cetana or mind-object volition 8. salaatanhaa or 6 tanhaa or 6 craving 1. ruupa-tanhaa or craving at visual object 2. sadda-tanhaa or craving at auditory object 3. gandha-tanhaa or craving at olfactory object 4. rasa-tanhaa or craving at gustatory object 5. photthabba-tanha or craving at tactile object 6. dhamma-tanhaa or craving at mind-object 9. salaavitakka or 6 vitakka or 6 initial-thinking (induction) 1. rupa-vitakka or initial-thinking of visual-object 2. sadda-vitakka or initial-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vitakka or initial-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vitakka or initial-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vitakka or initial-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vitakka or initial-thinking of mind-object 10. salaavicaara or 6 vicaara or 6 sustained-thinking (maintenance) 1. rupa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of visual object 2. sadda-vicaara or sustained-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vicaara or sustained-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vicaara or sustained-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vicaara or sustained-thinking of mind-object. Tanha arises at these 10 areas. There are 3 kinds of tanha and they are kaama-tanha or craving for lust, bhava-tanha or craving for existence, and vibhava-tanha or craving for non-existence. These 3 tanhas arise at these 10 places. They are 'cause the truth' or samudaya sacca and they are nothing more than that. They are just dhamma and not a self or atta. 3. 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth' Again 10 contemplations are on self, 10 are on others and another 10 are on 'both self and others' selves'. So there are 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth'. Suffering arise because of craving arising at 10 places. And at these 10 places, all suffering cease to arise as there is no craving at these 10 places (for arahats). 4. 27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 4. 3 contemplations on right action 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration ----- 27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 1. the knowledge of suffering 2. the knowledge of cause of suffering 3. the knowledge of cessation of suffering 4. the knowledge of Path leading to cessation of suffering 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 1. thinking non-lust or nekkhamma-sankappa 2. thinking non-aversion or abyaapaada-sankappa 3. thinking non-torture or avihimsa-sankappa 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 1. not telling lie or 'musaa-vadaa veramani' 2. not telling divisive speech or 'pisuna-vaacaa veramani' 3. not telling harsh speech or 'pharussa-vaacaa veramani' 4. not telling non-sense speech or 'samphappalaapa veramani' 4. 3 contemplations on right action 1. not killing or 'paanaatipataa veramani' 2. not stealing or 'adinnaadaanaa veramani' 3. not abusing lust or 'kaamesu-micchaacaara veramani' 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 1. avoidance of miccha-ajiiva or wrong-livelihood (living of ariyas) 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 1. mindfulness contemplating on body 2. mindfulness contemplating on feeling 3. mindfulness contemplating on consciousness 4. mindfulness contemplating on dhamma 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration 1. 1st jhaana concentration (concentration freeing hindrances) 2. 2nd jhaana concentration 3. 3rd jhaana concentration 4. 4th jhaana concentration (all aruupa jhaana concentration) With Metta, Htoo Naing 48461 From: nina Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 11:42am Subject: Cambodia lectures nilovg Dear Herman and friends, This was what I read to Lodewijk at dinner. Taken from Kh Sujin's lectures in Cambodia. **** Nina. 48462 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 3:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Hi Charles, Basically, points 1, 2 & 3 I agree with you (points 2 & 3 are trying to resolve the semantics issue). In point 4 I disagree that the western dictionary term for self can be used as a definition for this discussion because the Buddha quite clearly defines self as a permanent, unchanging substance. In an earlier post on this subject you state that what the Buddha was talking about is what we in the western world understand as the soul. While I don't like using terms that are in common use in western religions, I would have to agree in this instance that this is the best word to use. Therefore, as Theravadins Buddhists, you and I and others here would have to agree that there is no soul to be found amoungst the aggregates, either internally or externally. I was actually agreeing with you in the post below except for the definition of terms which are just labels we apply to things. It does make it difficult when all the translations use self instead of soul but it is understandable that terminology will be an issue in many areas when such a huge body of work is translated by so many different people. With Metta, Evan --------------------- Hi Evan I have to comment about the following points you made: 1.. I think that we would both agree that the aggregates are constantly changing and that there is no permanent core or "self" within that. 2.. Now, whether we define "self" to be the 5 ever-changing aggregates or some non-existent permanent "core" or "essence", it's just a label. 3.. We could agree for instance that "self" should be used to refer to the permanent core which doesn't exist and "delself" (delta + self) to refer to the "self" of the 5 aggregates. 4.. The problem with western society is that it does not fully understand the deeper meaning of self so looking the word up in the dictionary will only give you a very superficial, mundane definition which is not appropriate to this discussion. Point 1 I agree with. Point 2 and 3, I am not sure what you are getting at. Point 4, dictionaries try to standardize definitions so that it is easier for us to communicate. My whole point to the no-self discussion is that we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing. To just run around saying no-such-thing as self and not realize that what you are saying is very relative, is not helping people. CharlesD 48463 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 10:04pm Subject: Cool Calm ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Non-Agitation through Detached Non-Clinging! How, friends, is there non-agitation through detached non-clinging? Regarding this, friends, the educated normal person, who is a friend of a Noble One & who is clever & well trained in his Dhamma, or who is a friend of a Great Man & is clever and well trained in his Dhamma avoids regarding form as self, he avoids regarding self as having form, he avoids regarding form as inside a self, or the self as inside a form !!! Then inevitably his body form changes & decays. When this change and decay of his material form occurs, his mind does not become occupied with this change of just a form! Therefore do no agitated mental states, born of worry over this changed body form, remain obsessing his mind... Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not frightened, nor distressed, nor anxious, & by this detached non-clinging, his agitation is all stilled !!! He does not regard feeling as self ... perception as self ... constructions as self ... consciousness as self, nor the self as possessing consciousness, nor consciousness as being inside the 'self', nor a 'self' as being 'inside' consciousness ... When his consciousness momentarily changes & alters, his mind does not become engaged with this fast change of consciousness! Therefore do no agitated mental states born of concern over this changed consciousness remain obsessing his mind! Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not upset, nor troubled, nor uneasy, & by this aloof non-clinging his prior agitations are all calmed & stilled! It is exactly in this way, friends, that there is non-agitation through non-clinging... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XXII (7); [III 16-9] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 An Ocean of Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Khandha On Clusters! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48464 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Aug 2, 2005 11:38pm Subject: Exact Diagnosis='partial personalism' bhikkhu_ekamuni A worthy friend again wrote: >I perceive the actor... >a sentient being is not a thing... From this 'case' there is something to learn: This seems to be case of currently incurable, but only 'partial personalism' insofar as this friend tenaciously maintains, that there exists no 'being' inside 'himself'!, but that there indeed -despite the logical inconsistency- exists a stable & same 'being' externally inside 'another'!, who is a 'person', 'actor', 'sentient being' & 'non-thing'! It might be a transient hang-over side-effect of our good friend's prior mahayana inclination, which nevertheless still retains the power of making 'him' come back here again and again and again to birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death - ad infinitum - to save all these 'other sentient beings' ... How terrible, like a dog tied to a post always returns to it! Wrong 'identity view' is indeed an abysmal deep bondage ... The clinging to views is here seemingly induced by goodwill! Co-cultivation of equanimity would have prevented this... So even a advantageous state as 'Metta' can have detrimental side-effects, if not properly balanced out with 'Upekkha'!!! : - ] 48465 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 0:42am Subject: yahoo trouble solved nilovg Hi Jon, (also Connie, Christine) sorry to hear about your losses. I hope you retrieved things. Meanwhile all my yahoo troubles solved, Nina. 48466 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: four persons jonoabb Hi Mateesha Good to see you back again. Thanks for posting this sutta. I would be interested to hear your comments on its significance. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Tatiyasamàdhisuttaü - The third on concentration. > > 010.04. Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. What > four? > > Here, bhikkhus, a certain person is a gainer of internal appeasement > of mind not a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the > Teaching. Another is the gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting > the Teaching and not the gainer of internal appeasement of mind. > > Bhikkhus, a certain person is neither a gainer of internal > appeasement of mind nor a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting > the Teaching. Bhikkhus, another is the gainer of internal appeasement > of mind and a gainer of higher wisdom through reflecting the Teaching. > ... > Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/010-asuravaggo-e.htm 48467 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 1:12am Subject: The Real Herman.....:-)) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Back in the convenience store with the canned music on our way back to our hotel after a wonderful several hours with Herman in the Botanic Gardens. We were also delighted to meet Vicki, his wife, for a little while before she headed off for some shopping. In brief, I think we probably covered almost every topic that's been discussed on DSG whilst sipping drinks under the large trees of bats and ibis or cranes nesting in the palm trees, strolling round by the harbour and sitting on a bench overlooking the opera house and boats.... Herman took notes and I'm sure he'll be posting lots and lots, but he has a long drive home first....agreements and disagreements.....really it was like meeting a very good friend and we all laughed and relaxed as we chatted together so easily... -just some pointers for Herman that quickly come to mind: *stopping thinking/talking...any value? Golden silence? *situations....the kuti and tending rocks vs people....even sutta reading...any preferable for sati? *developing metta or awareness as opposed to developing clinging to self? *sati, panna now - visible object as we look out to sea...present moment, no despair? *tendencies - all equally worthless? *dukkha - thinking about the worthlessness of dhammas vs directly experiencing them as impermanent & dukkha? *clinging to any situation? labelling, marking, 'merely fabrications' - any clinging *kamma - more on kamma & vipaka....what is fortunate? The poor man in Nepal....roots of our problems and difficulties? *Social cittas, Joop's issues....having an effect in this world..doing good vs expectations of results? Compassion, suffering, influencing events? *mental silence, nibbana, cessation....aims? *conditionality and anatta....reminders of the Dutch Reform Church....still a paradox? Testing and proving dhammas and the teachings now....understanding to remove doubts? *jhanas, arhants...not emulating....(I think agreement!!) *targeting individuals, targeting dhammas? *shoulding and not shoulding? Conventional language only? 'You shouldn't hit your brother -- the meanings- right or wrong view? *taking a stand? ******* Herman, hope you can fill in and add lots more....Many thanks for meeting us and for all your considerateness which was so evident, from helping to look for my sunglasses to fitting in so kindly with our choice of venue and so on....Hope we can meet again and encourage others to join us next time....a beautiful afternoon for us....Thanks to Vicki for joining us too. Metta, Sarah ========= 48468 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: Exact Diagnosis='partial personalism' jwromeijn Dear Ven. Samahita I admire the creativity in giving every time again new names to discussion-threads. "Exact Diagnosis ='partial personalism'" is a beautiful label. And thanks for not calling my name, just saying "a worthy friend", the reason must be my progress in anatta: I hardly exist any more. This helps me in my optimism in the progress of Theravada itself: that it can have an evolution with a social dimension, with the liberating behavior of the Buddha as the ultimate model. One mistake in your message (I'm afraid not to me but to other DSG- participants for which there is still hope): I'm not saying that there "exists a stable & same being"; the 'stable and same' you add yourself. I know nothing is stable and I have no idea what is 'same'. And for the rest: end of this discussion because of lack of new arguments. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > A worthy friend again wrote: > > >I perceive the actor... > >a sentient being is not a thing... > > From this 'case' there is something to learn: > This seems to be case of currently incurable, but only > 'partial personalism' insofar as this friend tenaciously > maintains, that there exists no 'being' inside 'himself'!, > but that there indeed -despite the logical inconsistency- > exists a stable & same 'being' externally inside 'another'!, > who is a 'person', 'actor', 'sentient being' & 'non-thing'! .... etc 48469 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 2:23am Subject: Tep & Htoo dialogue htootintnaing Tep wrote: Dear All - It is one month exactly between the last post and this one. [at Universalanswer Yahoo Group, a free group and all people are invited whether they are Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims, or whatever. Techincal terms like Pali, Sanskript or whatever are avoided by members.] Tep continued: Today a thought arose in me. "Which is true? 1. When one attaches (clings) to something lovely, then one fabricates thoughts about it. Say, 'oh, that's a nice sport car.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here the ingredients are 1. one (seemingly a person) 2. something-lovely (seemingly an object say a nice sport car) When these ingredients are checked at exact point of moment there is no such thing like 'a person' or 'a nice sport car'. My re-arrangement of ingredients 1. 5-door-adverter 2. 5-door-consciousness 3. object-receiver 4. object-investigator 5. apperception-determiner 6. apperceiver 7. retainer 8. life-continuer These are mental phenomena. These are parts of mind. These are mental acivities. These are mental states. These are mind-conditions. These cannot arise without material support. Material supports here are heart-base and 5-sense-base as grounds and 6-sense-base as objects. Material ingredients are 1. eye-sense-base (this is not physical eye-ball) 2. ear-sense-base (this is not what we see as ear) 3. nose-sense-base( ,, ,, nose) 4. tongue-sense-base( ,, ,, tongue) 5. body-sense-base ( ,, ,, body including head :-) ) Well, 'one sees a nice sport car.' This is a statement that 'one sees something'. This is just an event that all worldly people can understand if this statement is spoken in the language that they can understand in worldly fashion. Actually there are billions of events happen in this single worldly event. If someone has enough wisdom and can see these many an events in such a single worldly event he or she will not be perceiving 'a person sees a nice sport car in his or her real sense'. Because all minute events have been seen and there is no more illusion on worldly event of 'seeing a nice sport car'. This means that he or she is not deluded that there is a car, there is a person but just see the events in that single worldly event like such is mental phenomena and such is physical phenomena and so there is no attachment. Nano-events here are a) There is a flow of life-continuer. It is mental phenomenon. b) Material phenomeon reminds that there it comes and the flow is disturbed but still continuing and then stop. c) As soon as the flow stop 5-door-adverter adverts to respective door of vision (for a nice sport car). Advert does not see anything but just adverts. d) 5-sense-consciousness here sees 'the car' but does not know it is a car or anyother thing and is a sport car or not, has so and so colour. But just it sees what is there as it is. e) Receiver just receives the data, which has been sensed by 5-sense- consciousness. Receivers does not know fully about the data. f) Investigator just explore what the data is like. g) Determiner then decides how to apperceive even though he himself does not apperceive anything at all. h) Apperceivers (7 in a row) successively apperceive and fully know initial data. They do not know beyond the data they receive and apperceive. i) Retainers ( 2 in a row ) just maintain or retain the data for 2 more moments. After that j) Usual flow of life-continuers resumes These are mental phenomena and they are not without material base. 5-sense-consciousness (seer) has the ground 'eye-sense-base' and other mental phenomena happen on the grounds of heart-base. All these mental phenomena are supported by 'what we see as a nice sport car' except 'life-continuers', who take their own supporting object. So far there is no person, no car at all. After this initial rolling of different mental phenomena basing on physical phenomena there follow further rollings. These further rollings add to the existing data and ideas are constructed. At the time of construction there are many attachments arise because of ignorance. Finally because of this ignorance 'a nice sport car' is seen by 'a person'. This creates further delusion and cause arising of further implications like trying to get 'money', searching for a similar 'nice sport cars' etc etc. But in essence there is no car or person at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 2. One fabricates thoughts because of ignorance (not knowing the 'real truth' about the object of desire), then one attaches to the object. Say, 'It would be fun driving it to San Francisco. I must find money to buy it soon.' Which case leads to suffering? Regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further fabrications are based on former data, which are already deluded by ignorance. 'San Fransisco' 'money' etc are also not phenomena. They are just constructed ideas. When these are ignored there always arise suffering and more suffering. With best wishes, Htoo Naing 48470 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 2:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 462 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 ultimate realities. They are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana. There are 1 citta, 52 cetasika, 18 sabhaava ruupa or nipphanna ruupa, and 1 nibbana altogether 72 dhammas. These dhamma may be grouped in different combinations in the following ways. a) akusala sangaha or 'stock of unwholesome dhamma' b) missaka sangaha or 'stock of peer/friend dhamma' c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or 'stock of companions of enlightment' d) sabba sangaha or 'stock of other dhammas' a) akusala sangaha or 'stock of unwholesome dhamma' Sangaha means 'collecting' 'gethering' 'accumulation' 'piling up'. Akusala means 'unprofitable' 'unwholesome'. So these piling up of dhamma are all akusala dhamma. If akusala are known we can avoid them. These akusala dhamma are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicants) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bonds) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal, preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48471 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 4:01am Subject: Re: meeting with Antony Woods - worldly conditions and more.... antony272b2 Dear Sarah and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Antony & all friends, > > We really enjoyed meeting you for a drink today...sitting outside with a heater over the table in downtown Sydney. Antony: Our meeting gave me a lift. I was distraught the night before and I am better now. I related my new reaction to remembering Buddhism during the day. I used to think "Uh Oh!". Now I say "Gooo- erd (Good!)" > Like when we saw RobM recently, I think we covered many topics in a short > time -- just an hour. > While we sat, we heard the siren of an ambulance....Antony, you thought > about any possible injuries with compassion and we also talked about how > only sound is heard, but again we quickly think of various possibilities. > This led onto discussions of what present awareness really is and what > various teachers say about this. We discussed awareness as recalling and > paying attention to what we are doing as opposed to being aware of present > realities such as hearing and sound. Antony: I mentioned being moved by the two bells for 2pm in Martin Place. As a Zen Master put it, "When I heard the sound of the bell ringing, there was no I, and no bell, just the ringing." > Back to kamma - we all have various fears and concerns, such as being in > crowds or busy places perhaps and again may think of this in terms of > kamma. Again we might say in ordinary language that being bumped or > jostled is a bad kamma result, but really we have to face up to our > present kilesa (defilements) as being the real problem I think. How did > this sound? Antony: I gave the example of feeling annoyed at someone walking towards me on the footpath walking their dog (or a couple holding hands) with me halting and waiting for them to pass (I have a walking disability) and being annoyed thinking that it was my dukkha vipaka rather than a chance encounter. Even though I said nothing and didn't wish them any harm you pointed out that it was the "far enemy of metta" ;) I smiled when I remembered that comment today maneouvring in and out of my local library. > And then we discussed special sensations or experiences we enjoy and cling > to and usually don't see such clinging as any problem or conditioning the > dosa (which includes slight uneasiness too) when the patterns change.... > Samatha briefly....Jon pointing out that not being able to sit > cross-legged is not a problem:) Antony: I mentioned when singing the national anthem upon seeing a flag getting thrills in my scalp (goose bumps?) and we concluded that it wasn't the jhana-factor of piti (rapture) but sense pleasure. Antony: Sarah your wonderful gesticulations whilst talking about clinging and imaging(?please what was the term?) or getting carried away (arms moving out to your left!) by mental proliferation(? paraphrasing). > Antony, you have an incredible memory for sutta references and even page > numbers in texts too!! Please quote the part from MN ??49 or the one you > mentioned you'd written to B.Bodhi about. Perhaps someone can comment >further. Antony: I've found a significant correction to Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi Majjhima Nikaya 61 >translation: +++++++ >Below is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation. > >This is the correction ("except for"): >"[Similarly with verbal and mental acts, except for the last >paragraph under mental acts:]" >Harmful mental actions don't have to be confessed, just be ashamed >of. >+++++ >"Having performed a bodily act, you should reflect on it... If, on >reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the >affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily act >with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess >it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable >companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should >exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that >it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action >with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay >mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental >qualities. > >[Similarly with verbal and mental acts, except for the last >paragraph under mental acts:] > >"Having performed a mental act, you should reflect on it... If, on >reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the >affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental act >with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel >distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it. Feeling distressed... you >should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you >know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental >action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay >mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental >qualities. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061-tb0.html +++++++ Sarah: Also, please quote the paragraph you were referring to about Visakha and remind us of the context for your comment. Antony: Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dana-giving/message/108 I summarised to a friend: >I remember you helping me realise my "spiritual greed" trying to get >praise by performing meritorious deeds. This week I found in Great >Disciples pp254-55 Visakha's conversation with the Buddha about the >outer and inner benefits of donating robes, food etc. to the Sangha. >Her sequence was that recollecting she would be glad, happy, >tranquil, pleasure, mind will become concentrated, bring the >development of the spiritual powers(5) and the enlightenment >factors. This, Lord, is the benefit I foresee for myself in asking >the eight boons of the Perfect One." > >"Good, good, Visakha!" the Enlightened One replied. "It is good that >you have asked the Perfect One for the eight boons foreseeing these >benefits. I grant you the eight boons." Antony: We also discussed sexuality – e.g. that Visakha got married and had children after becoming a sotapanna. I mentioned my donations to the Rape Crisis Centre to effectively reduce lust. I admitted that I can't say that I have overcome lust because I've never been tempted. Sarah: And then there was > a sutta in SN you referred to that you liked....as I have no access to > books for these few weeks, again please quote from it when you have time with one or two of your comments again. Antony: SN46:54 – particularly the Noble Power – mastery of perception seeing the unrepulsive in the repulsive by pervading metta etc. for an extract: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html > > You also gave a great example of Munindra's...and how he had replied that > the aim was 'to live simply, not as a simpleton'....please would you give the context again.... Sharon Salzberg in "Faith": "One of the favorite stories that circulated among his students was of a time several of them were wandering through the marketplace of Bodhgaya with him. As they watched Munindra bargain, first with the peanut vendor, then with the cloth merchant, one student questioned whether bargaining like that was appropriate for a spiritual teacher. Munindra replied, "The practice of the dhamma is to learn to be simple, not to be a simpleton" Sarah: And then you quoted one or two commments from DSG > you'd put in your notebook including the one that started the discussion > about realities. I'm sure others would like to hear these. Antony: Here is your post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40852 "The seeing is real, the thinking is real, but the images and concepts are purely imagined. Let them go." What do you mean by images and concepts? Refer Useful posts perhaps? > I still haven't read Nina's message on compassion which you liked..... Antony: Here is the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/47919 > hopefully we'll catch up tomorrow before meeting Herman:-). Nina > will also be glad that you now have a hard copy of Budd in D.Life and an mp3 from India to listen to.... Thanks again to Nina for her Dhamma works and Sarah for passing them on. I'll peruse them soon. > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== with metta and gratitude, Antony. PS I have paraphrased and added to some of the actual words in our discussion to try to make the intended meaning clearer. 48472 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meeting with Antony Woods - worldly conditions and more.... nilovg Hi Antony, Thank you for your post with lively impressions. I liked your examples. I went again to the link about flashbacks. It is very good. Compassion is a good subject to continue with. It touches on the social aspect Joop writes about, and also on Howard's functional realities. It makes Dhamma very daily. Nina. 48473 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 6:11am Subject: Botanical Gardens I egberdina Hi everyone, Just a quick message, to be followed later tomorrow by a more in-depth account of our meeting with Jon and Sarah today. A word of warning to those who have never met Jon. You are wrong about him!!! Jon is a very funny, warm and personable man. (As an example, his comment at our parting: "Herman, you are a very huggable man" or words to that effect ( he doesn't like being misquoted :-)) Brief overview - Jon and Sarah are very kind, generous and skillful people. After 4 1/2 hours of very clarifying discussion there had not been a hint of doctrinal insistence, just very sincere people calmly expressing their understanding, with understanding. If I had to summarise the discussions it would read : Understanding the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. I wish to express my heartfelt regret (not morose) and apologise to all at dsg for the many, many times I have spoken unwisely. Off to bed I go Kind Regards Herman 48474 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 8:20am Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens I htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just a quick message, to be followed later tomorrow by a more in- depth > account of our meeting with Jon and Sarah today. > > A word of warning to those who have never met Jon. You are wrong about > him!!! Jon is a very funny, warm and personable man. (As an example, > his comment at our parting: "Herman, you are a very huggable man" or > words to that effect ( he doesn't like being misquoted :-)) > > Brief overview - Jon and Sarah are very kind, generous and skillful > people. After 4 1/2 hours of very clarifying discussion there had not > been a hint of doctrinal insistence, just very sincere people calmly > expressing their understanding, with understanding. > > If I had to summarise the discussions it would read : Understanding > the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding > the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. > > I wish to express my heartfelt regret (not morose) and apologise to > all at dsg for the many, many times I have spoken unwisely. > > Off to bed I go > > Kind Regards > Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, That is good of you to post this message. Htoo Naing 48475 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens I upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - What a LOVELY post!! :-) Thank you!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/3/05 9:14:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi everyone, Just a quick message, to be followed later tomorrow by a more in-depth account of our meeting with Jon and Sarah today. A word of warning to those who have never met Jon. You are wrong about him!!! Jon is a very funny, warm and personable man. (As an example, his comment at our parting: "Herman, you are a very huggable man" or words to that effect ( he doesn't like being misquoted :-)) Brief overview - Jon and Sarah are very kind, generous and skillful people. After 4 1/2 hours of very clarifying discussion there had not been a hint of doctrinal insistence, just very sincere people calmly expressing their understanding, with understanding. If I had to summarise the discussions it would read : Understanding the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. I wish to express my heartfelt regret (not morose) and apologise to all at dsg for the many, many times I have spoken unwisely. Off to bed I go Kind Regards Herman /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48476 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 8:38am Subject: Satipatthaana (04) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, This is winding up. 1. 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body 2. 030 vedanaanupassanaa or 30 contemplations on feeling 3. 051 cittaanupassanaa or 51 contemplations on consciousness 4. 108 dhammaanupassanaa or 108 contemplations on dhamma ------- 450 contemplations on 4 satipatthaanas 1. 450 contemplations on 4 satipatthaanas 2. 450 contemplations on 4 satipatthaanas (second round) 3. 099 contemplations on 4 Noble Truth (99 saccaanupassanaa) 4. 081 contemplations on Buddha's attributes ( 9 times 9 attributes) ------ 1080 There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string. The serial is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ 1080 total contemplations All these are just my re-arrangement of satipatthaana sutta. Any query from any view is welcome. With Metta, Htoo Naing 48477 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self mlnease Hi Evan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:41 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self > ...the Buddha quite clearly defines self as a permanent, unchanging > substance. Interesting! Could you please tell us where in the tipi.taka the Buddha does this? Thanks in Advance, mike 48478 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens I nilovg Hi Herman, what a lively post you write with your general impressions, and so sincere. It makes a lot of difference to meet people life, doesn't it? Looking forward to your further posts. I like your summary: understanding the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. There is a lot to consider and discuss about this, never enough, I find. Hopefully you bring up more about this. When clinging arises there is also ignorance at the same time and therefore we do not notice it. We are caught again. Nina op 03-08-2005 15:11 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...:> > Brief overview - Jon and Sarah are very kind, generous and skillful > people. After 4 1/2 hours of very clarifying discussion there had not > been a hint of doctrinal insistence, just very sincere people calmly > expressing their understanding, with understanding. > > If I had to summarise the discussions it would read : Understanding > the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding > the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. 48479 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens I christine_fo... Hello Herman, Antony, all, Careful! ... it's all a fiendish plot fueled by metta ... if you let your guard down even for an instant, you'll be visiting Cooran next and exchanging pleasantries with KenH, Andrew, Steve, and Azita or popping over to Bangkok and taking tea with Sukin, Betty and Ivan ... or coming on one of the pilgrimage trips with us .. or maybe even having Shakti pass through from the States ... who knows where it will ever end? ... But next time you are all in Sydney - how about letting some of the rest of Oz know - there is actually a thing called Frequent Flyer Points and winged machines that can complete the distance in just over an hour, you know. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just a quick message, to be followed later tomorrow by a more in- depth > account of our meeting with Jon and Sarah today. > > A word of warning to those who have never met Jon. You are wrong about > him!!! Jon is a very funny, warm and personable man. (As an example, > his comment at our parting: "Herman, you are a very huggable man" or > words to that effect ( he doesn't like being misquoted :-)) > > Brief overview - Jon and Sarah are very kind, generous and skillful > people. After 4 1/2 hours of very clarifying discussion there had not > been a hint of doctrinal insistence, just very sincere people calmly > expressing their understanding, with understanding. > > If I had to summarise the discussions it would read : Understanding > the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding > the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. > > I wish to express my heartfelt regret (not morose) and apologise to > all at dsg for the many, many times I have spoken unwisely. > > Off to bed I go > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman 48480 From: "Charlie Patton" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 9:24am Subject: Introduction and Question cdpatton2003 Hello, everyone; I wanted to send an introduction of myself and then ask a question. First, I would like to say that the discourse that I see happening here is very good and has the right attitude. The combativeness of some Dharma groups online becomes quite an obstacle to communication. I also would like to say that the care that is directed both to the Dharma and the practicianers here makes it an excellent refuge compared to other forums I have experienced. I am not a Theravada Buddhist, but rather a Mahayana Buddhist (upasaka) of the Chinese Ch'an tradition. I do study the scriptures of early Buddhism, both as regular practice and to study the background to the Mahayana texts. The Pali Nikayas are one of two recensions of the early canon that we have available to us, and so I study it as well through English translation. I translate Buddhist texts from Chinese to English, but cannot read Pali or Sanskrit, and so need help at times understanding the original texts from which the Chinese texts were translated. One of my ongoing translation projects is to translate selections from the four Agamas, which are roughly equivalent to the Pali Nikayas, being the canons of other Indian pre-Mahayana traditions (I believe the Dharmaguptaka and the Sarvastivada). It is in some ways interesting to look at these Agama texts and then compare them to the Pali Nikaya versions. Equivalency can usually be established between a Chinese Agama text and a Nikaya text, but superficial differences are usually apparent. Then, there are times when one or the other appears expanded, or damaged, or re-arranged when compared to the other. Sometimes the Pali seems the more reliable version, sometimes the Chinese seems the more reliable version. At any rate, what is apparent is that both the Nikayas and the Agamas are the end points of divergent canons derived from some early proto-canon (I suspect, the early oral canon). I subscribed to this list in the hopes that I could dialog on technical issues in comparing the Pali and Chinese texts at times. But, also, I did so to gain from the Dharma discussions that occur. I do have one question, if anyone can help. I am at the moment working on a translation of the Agama equivalent (Madhyama Agama No. 189) of the Pali Majjhima Nikaya No. 117 Mahacattarisaka (The Great Forty). I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation on hand to use as a comparison. However, there is a passage in the Chinese that has me somewhat stumped. It is a stock definition of right effort (translated by the Chinese translator as "right skillfulness" for whatever reason). The passage does not occur in MN.117, but there are places in the Nikayas where a very similar stock passage is found (cf. MN.141.29). The Nanamoli-Bodhi translation: "And what, friends, is right effort? Here a bhikkhu awakens zeal for the non-arising of unarisen evil unwholesome states, and he makes effort, arouses energy, exerts his mind, and strives ... [etc]." The Chinese passage reads: "So as to not give rise to unarisen evil dharmas, he initiates the desire, pursues the skillfulness [=effort], endevours, rouses his mind, and cessation... [etc]." It is this last that has me stumped. I have rendered it as "cessation" here in the Chinese passage because is the usually meaning. It is usually the Chinese equivalent of nirodha or nivrtthi. I was interested in seeing what the Pali for this passage looks like prior to translation, or if anyone knows of translation issues here for the Nanamoli-Bodhi version. At this point, I am suspecting the Chinese to be a copyist error. It does not really follow, to me. If anyone is inclined to help, they have my gratitude! In the Dharma, Charlie. 48481 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 3:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Evan_Stamato... Yes, by defining the aggregates as impermanent and changing and specifying them as not-self because as you know there is no self. -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of m. nease Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2005 3:26 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Evan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:41 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self > ...the Buddha quite clearly defines self as a permanent, unchanging > substance. Interesting! Could you please tell us where in the tipi.taka the Buddha does this? Thanks in Advance, mike 48482 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self mlnease Hi Evan, Well, OK--thanks. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:48 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self > Yes, by defining the aggregates as impermanent and changing and > specifying them as not-self because as you know there is no self. > >> ...the Buddha quite clearly defines self as a permanent, unchanging >> substance. > > Interesting! Could you please tell us where in the tipi.taka the Buddha > does this? 48483 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,178 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 178. (33) [The consciousness] associated with agitation (33) has the same [formations as the consciousness] associated with uncertainty (32), except for uncertainty (l). But with the absence of uncertainty resolution (xxix) arises here. So with that they are likewise thirteen, and concentration (viii) is stronger because of the presence of resolution. Also agitation is given in the texts as such, while resolution (xxix) and attention (xxx) are among the or-whatever-states. Thus should the unprofitable formations be understood. 48484 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 7:42pm Subject: Re: Tep & Htoo dialogue buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - As you know, my original posting at 'Universalanswer' was intended for the general public, not Abhidhamma scholars. So it seems that originally my two questions are too simplistic for DSG. The thought that motivated this simplistic message ("Which is true?") is whether there is two-way conditionality between clinging(upadana) and fabrications(sankhara) and, given that there is, if there is always avijja associated with the two dhammas. Diagrametrically, the two way linking is given below. Here, an arrow indicates precedence and the square bracket indicates association. Case I. Upadana [Avijja] ----> Sankhara ---> Dukkha Case II. Sankhara[Avijja] ----> Upadana ---> Dukkha ------------------------------- The main points in your reply are : Htoo: (Case II) "Further fabrications are based on former data, which are already deluded by ignorance. 'San Fransisco' 'money' etc are also not phenomena. They are just constructed ideas. When these are ignored there always arise suffering and more suffering". Tep: So you are in agreement with the above diagram. ----------------------- Htoo: (Case I) "... there is no person, no car at all. After this initial rolling of different mental phenomena basing on physical phenomena there follow further rollings. These further rollings add to the existing data and ideas are constructed. At the time of construction there are many attachments arise because of ignorance. Finally because of this ignorance 'a nice sport car' is seen by 'a person'. Tep: I take the above to mean that you are also in agreement with the above diagram. Great, this is a rare situation that we both agree 100%! Thank you, Htoo. Also, I very much appreciate your creative analysis of the mental processes by using citta-vithi and bhavanga. Yes, it is clear from the Abhidhamma perspective that "But in essence there is no car or person at all." Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here the ingredients are > > 1. one (seemingly a person) > 2. something-lovely (seemingly an object say a nice sport car) > > When these ingredients are checked at exact point of moment there is > no such thing like 'a person' or 'a nice sport car'. > > My re-arrangement of ingredients > > 1. 5-door-adverter > 2. 5-door-consciousness > 3. object-receiver > 4. object-investigator > 5. apperception-determiner > 6. apperceiver > 7. retainer > 8. life-continuer > > These are mental phenomena. These are parts of mind. These are mental acivities. These are mental states. These are mind-conditions. These cannot arise without material support. Material supports here are heart-base and 5-sense-base as grounds and 6-sense-base as objects. > > Material ingredients are > > 1. eye-sense-base (this is not physical eye-ball) > 2. ear-sense-base (this is not what we see as ear) > 3. nose-sense-base( ,, ,, nose) > 4. tongue-sense-base( ,, ,, tongue) > 5. body-sense-base ( ,, ,, body including head :-) ) > > Well, 'one sees a nice sport car.' > > This is a statement that 'one sees something'. This is just an event > that all worldly people can understand if this statement is spoken in > the language that they can understand in worldly fashion. > > Actually there are billions of events happen in this single worldly > event. > > If someone has enough wisdom and can see these many an events in such a single worldly event he or she will not be perceiving 'a person > sees a nice sport car in his or her real sense'. Because all minute > events have been seen and there is no more illusion on worldly event > of 'seeing a nice sport car'. > > This means that he or she is not deluded that there is a car, there > is a person but just see the events in that single worldly event like > such is mental phenomena and such is physical phenomena and so there is no attachment. > > Nano-events here are > > a) There is a flow of life-continuer. It is mental phenomenon. > b) Material phenomeon reminds that there it comes and the flow > is disturbed but still continuing and then stop. > c) As soon as the flow stop 5-door-adverter adverts to respective > door of vision (for a nice sport car). Advert does not see anything > but just adverts. > > d) 5-sense-consciousness here sees 'the car' but does not know > it is a car or anyother thing and is a sport car or not, has > so and so colour. But just it sees what is there as it is. > > e) Receiver just receives the data, which has been sensed by 5- sense-consciousness. Receivers does not know fully about the data. > > f) Investigator just explore what the data is like. > > g) Determiner then decides how to apperceive even though he himself does not apperceive anything at all. > > h) Apperceivers (7 in a row) successively apperceive and fully know > initial data. They do not know beyond the data they receive and > apperceive. > > i) Retainers ( 2 in a row ) just maintain or retain the data for 2 > more moments. After that > > j) Usual flow of life-continuers resumes > > These are mental phenomena and they are not without material base. > 5-sense-consciousness (seer) has the ground 'eye-sense-base' and other mental phenomena happen on the grounds of heart-base. All these mental phenomena are supported by 'what we see as a nice sport car' except 'life-continuers', who take their own supporting object. > > So far there is no person, no car at all. > > After this initial rolling of different mental phenomena basing on > physical phenomena there follow further rollings. > > These further rollings add to the existing data and ideas are > constructed. At the time of construction there are many attachments > arise because of ignorance. > > Finally because of this ignorance 'a nice sport car' is seen by 'a > person'. This creates further delusion and cause arising of further > implications like trying to get 'money', searching for a > similar 'nice sport cars' etc etc. > > But in essence there is no car or person at all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 48485 From: connie Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 10:03pm Subject: Subject: Vism.XIV,178 UTin nichiconn see 48483 for "Path of Purification" "Path of Purity" The remaining states are of the kinds described. Excepting perplexity from those mentioned in the consciousness associated with perplexity, the remaining twelve states are united with that associated with distraction, wherein decision arises owing to the absence of perplexity. Together with this [decision] there remain thirteen mental activties. And owing to the production of decision, concentration becomes stronger. And whatever distraction there is, appears in its true nature; decision and att'n come by way of the 'or-whatever' states. Thus should the immoral mental activities be understood. 48486 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] yahoo trouble solved jonoabb Hi Nina --- nina wrote: > Hi Jon, (also Connie, Christine) > sorry to hear about your losses. I hope you retrieved things. > Meanwhile all my yahoo troubles solved, > Nina. Glad to hear that your problems have been solved. My things have not been returned, and it is now unlikely that they will be. In the meantime we have of course cancelled the credit and bank cards, but fortunately Sarah has a credit card and I am able to use my Hong Kong bank card to get local currency, so we will manage just fine (barring any further incidents ;-)). Actual cash loss was relatively small, fortunately. Jon 48487 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 10:52pm Subject: e-Card from Sydney jonoabb Hi All As you know, Sarah and I have had the good fortune to meet up with Antony and Herman for discussion -- no better way of spending one's time, as far as we are concerned. In addition, we have been enjoying perfect, unseasonably warm weather, and even today when temperatures have dropped we managed to get in a swim in the surf at Manly beach (the best surf of the trip). The only set-back has been my laptop computer. We have just been advised by the service centre that the problem has been diagnosed as the system board, but that they've not yet been able to locate a replacement part. So there's a chance we'll be without the computer for the rest of this trip. For those of you (including Howard, Herman and Tep) who had written to me but not received a reply before I left Hong Kong, I have your posts in a folder on my hard drive, and was in the process of replying when the computer went down. I think that rather than try to track down your posts on the list, I'll probably just leave it till I get the computer back (although you're most welcome to give me a reference/link to your post so that I can reply sooner). Enjoying all the discussion on the list. Sarah sends her regards to you all. Jon 48488 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meeting with Antony Woods - worldly conditions and more.... jonoabb Hi Antony It was a pleasure meeting you on Tuesday and sharing useful reminders about the teachings. I appreciated your keen interest in the texts and other writings, and your ablility to come up with a quote from somewhere to meet any situation! Thanks for the detailed report that follows, and Sarah asks me to say the same from her. --- Antony Woods wrote: > > Antony: Our meeting gave me a lift. I was distraught the night before > and I am better now. I related my new reaction to remembering > Buddhism during the day. I used to think "Uh Oh!". Now I say "Gooo- > erd (Good!)" We are indeed fortunate to be living at a time when the teachings are still available, and to be able to appreciate them. We should make the most of the relatively few years that we have for this life!! > Antony: I mentioned being moved by the two bells for 2pm in Martin > Place. > As a Zen Master put it, "When I heard the sound of the bell ringing, > there was no I, and no bell, just the ringing." Yes indeed, but we also know that at the highest/deepest level there is just sound, and that 'ringing' already indicates some moments of thinking about the sound that has been experienced. It is only by studying more about dhammas (whether as khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus etc) that we can hope to have a better undersanding of what the development of satipatthana is all about. > Antony: I gave the example of feeling annoyed at someone walking > towards me on the footpath walking their dog (or a couple holding > hands) with me halting and waiting for them to pass (I have a walking > disability) and being annoyed thinking that it was my dukkha vipaka > rather than a chance encounter. Even though I said nothing and didn't > wish them any harm you pointed out that it was the "far enemy of > metta" ;) I smiled when I remembered that comment today maneouvring > in and out of my local library. Thanks for sharing this experience. It is a useful reminder that the problem is never the other person or even our own kamma/vipaka, but the accumulated akusala tendencies that are lying latent ready for an opportunity to manifest. > Antony: I mentioned when singing the national anthem upon seeing a > flag getting thrills in my scalp (goose bumps?) and we concluded that > it wasn't the jhana-factor of piti (rapture) but sense pleasure. For most of us it's a safe bet that whatever the experience it's likely to be akusala of one kind or another ;-)). I find it very helpful to remember this as, in my case at least, there is such a strong inclination to assume the opposite. Thanks also for your other comments (snipped for now). Looking forward to meeting again on a future visit. Jon 48489 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 11:23pm Subject: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding egberdina Hi all, I'm actually finding it quite difficult to just narrate how our discussions unfolded. I'm so used to writing a structured argument, but our discussions were quite spontaneous and free-flowing, liberally dotted with good humour. So I'll just try and recollect what sort-of belonged together, and hope it makes some sense. Of course it will be just my recollections, Jon may not actually remember it as the day he first realised how wrong he has been :-) :-) Jon and Sarah (from here I'll use J & S for short) remarked how things seemed to be "different" in this, my latest sojourn at dsg. I agreed, and said I realised that it was more important to have metta than to be right (or something like that). I added that I hoped that this realisation wasn't because of my medication. It would really annoy me to discover that some chemicals could be the trigger for metta, rather than an "I". Enter J & S, and the subject of clinging. They pointed out the pitfalls of wanting to have metta, wanting to be a particular way. I said that I thought I was a nicer, better person this way and that it was better for those I dealt with and myself to be this way. They came back with a recurring theme, which was eradication of the underlying tendencies. If clinging lay at the roots of my desire to be this way or that, then I was merely setting myself up for more suffering down the track. I agreed (which I did quite regularly that afternoon), and expressed my fear that, with or without clinging, tomorrow I could turn into a real sh*thead again. They agreed that could be the case, and that would be outside of anyone's ability to control. In any case , it would not be the clinging to metta that produced more metta. Far better to be aware of the present moment and to understand it. J & S often used a very nice phrase to capture this idea, "proving the dhamma". We moved on to a hypothetical poor man in Nepal. We didn't call him Arthur, but let's call him that rather than the hypothetical poor man in Nepal. Arthur is a thin, frail man in a loin cloth, who lives around the open sewers of his city. Arthur is a man of few wants and is fully accepting of whatever comes his way. I said that nothing would ever change for Arthur because of his acceptance of the way things are. That his life was the way it was would, of course, not matter to Arthur, as he accepted it. But I was expressing the futility of acceptance. J & S said that without understanding the arising and the ceasing of the dhammas of the present moment, acceptance is futile. Also, no valid comparison is to be made between Arthur and, say, Rupert Murdoch, because we see only the surface. Nothing can be said about their respective levels of well-being. Who knows the internal sufferings of anyone? Rather, is there awareness of the present moment as dhammas, and understanding of their arising and ceasing, is there proving the dhamma right here and right now, that's all that counts. This seems to be a good place to end this section. At this time we were seated on a wooden bench overlooking the harbour, Jon on the left, Herman in the middle and Sarah on the right, with an endless stream of joggers and walkers going past in both directions. I'll write more, later on today. Kind Regards Herman 48490 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens I jonoabb Hi Herman It was a pleasure meeting you and Vicki yesterday, and I found our discussion interesting and useful. How the time flies when the subject is so engrossing! --- Egbert wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just a quick message, to be followed later tomorrow by a more in-depth > account of our meeting with Jon and Sarah today. > > A word of warning to those who have never met Jon. You are wrong about > him!!! Jon is a very funny, warm and personable man. Are you saying that this is not how I'm generally regarded on the list? ;-)). Seriously though, the only thing I'd like to add here is that the same goes for those of you who have never met Khun Sujin: you are quite mistaken about her, and I hope that if ever you have the chance to meet her in person you will grab it with both hands. (As an example, > his comment at our parting: "Herman, you are a very huggable man" or > words to that effect ( he doesn't like being misquoted :-)) Yes, you are quite a softie actually, much different to your on-list persona ;-)) > Brief overview - Jon and Sarah are very kind, generous and skillful > people. After 4 1/2 hours of very clarifying discussion there had not > been a hint of doctrinal insistence, just very sincere people calmly > expressing their understanding, with understanding. > > If I had to summarise the discussions it would read : Understanding > the present moment, understanding the present moment, understanding > the present moment, clinging, clinging, clinging. A good summary, to which I would only add that understanding the present moment means understanding one of the presently occurring dhammas (be it clinging or any other). > I wish to express my heartfelt regret (not morose) and apologise to > all at dsg for the many, many times I have spoken unwisely. Speaking for myself, I have always suspected that your sometimes strongly expressed views and colourful language are a reflection of your frustration at not being able to get your message across as you would like to. Your deep interest in the teachings has never been in question. Thanks again for an afternoon very well, and very pleasantly, spent. Jon 48491 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction and Question jonoabb Hi Charlie Welcome to the list, and thanks for the very informative introduction. Thanks also for your kind comments about the discussion on the list. Your research/translation project sounds an interesting one, and one that we may all benefit from in the long run. --- Charlie Patton wrote: > Hello, everyone; > I do have one question, if anyone can help. I am at the moment working > on a > translation of the Agama equivalent (Madhyama Agama No. 189) of the Pali > Majjhima Nikaya No. 117 Mahacattarisaka (The Great Forty). I have the > Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation on hand to use as a > comparison. However, there is a passage in the Chinese that has me > somewhat > stumped. It is a stock definition of right effort (translated by the > Chinese translator as "right skillfulness" for whatever reason). The > passage does not occur in MN.117, but there are places in the Nikayas > where > a very similar stock passage is found (cf. MN.141.29). > > The Nanamoli-Bodhi translation: "And what, friends, is right effort? > Here a > bhikkhu awakens zeal for the non-arising of unarisen evil unwholesome > states, and he makes effort, arouses energy, exerts his mind, and > strives > ... [etc]." > > The Chinese passage reads: "So as to not give rise to unarisen evil > dharmas, > he initiates the desire, pursues the skillfulness [=effort], endevours, > rouses his mind, and cessation... [etc]." > > It is this last that has me stumped. I have rendered it as "cessation" > here > in the Chinese passage because is the usually meaning. It is usually > the > Chinese equivalent of nirodha or nivrtthi. I was interested in seeing > what > the Pali for this passage looks like prior to translation, or if anyone > knows of translation issues here for the Nanamoli-Bodhi version. At > this > point, I am suspecting the Chinese to be a copyist error. It does not > really follow, to me. > > If anyone is inclined to help, they have my gratitude! I'm afraid I have no knowledge of Pali, but you can find the Pali text of M 141 at this link: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/141-saccavibhanga-p.htm You will need to download fonts to read it properly. (Unfortunately I am at an internet cafe, otherwise I could give the actual text of the passage, in Velthius, instead.) Hope this helps. Looking forward to your contribution to the discussions here. Jon 48492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction and Question, skilfullness. nilovg Hi Charlie, welcome to the list. Your question is food for thought! see below. Our moderators are now on vacation, but recently Sarah gave some tips for newcomers. Could you look at the message center? Where do you live, and is Chinese your family language? Where did you learn it? op 03-08-2005 18:24 schreef Charlie Patton op cdpatton2003@...: > First, I would like to say that the discourse that I see happening here is > very good and has the right attitude. ------ N: We all make mistakes, but as you will see, afterwards apologies are made. I learnt so much from Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammanando. He once gave seven translations of texts, and showed how different characters of translators were expressed in them. His first sentence I shall not forget: discussions should be unemotive. I would say, emotions within limits, not offending others. But, as said, we are human and make mistakes. Jon said, we are restrained because we are concerned for others who are interested in Dhamma. Also, when someone else is of a different background, we can learn from him by reflecting on his ideas. ------ Ch: . I translate Buddhist texts from Chinese to English, but cannot read Pali or > Sanskrit, and so need help at times understanding the original texts from > which the Chinese texts were translated. One of my ongoing translation > projects is to translate selections from the four Agamas ------- N: This is exactly what several members of the Paliyahoo list are doing. you will receive much help from them. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/ [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com -------- Ch: I subscribed to this list in the hopes that I could dialog on technical > issues in comparing the Pali and Chinese texts at times. But, also, I did > so to gain from the Dharma discussions that occur. ------ N: So, please join in. ------- Ch: I am at the moment working on a > translation of the Agama equivalent (Madhyama Agama No. 189) of the Pali > Majjhima Nikaya No. 117 Mahacattarisaka (The Great Forty). I have the > Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation on hand to use as a > comparison. However, there is a passage in the Chinese that has me somewhat > stumped. It is a stock definition of right effort (translated by the > Chinese translator as "right skillfulness" for whatever reason). The > passage does not occur in MN.117, but there are places in the Nikayas where > a very similar stock passage is found (cf. MN.141.29). ------- In PTS it is translated as right endeavour. I find the Chinese term right skillfulness very interesting. The Expositor (I, p. 48) gives as one of the renderings for wholesome (kusala): skillfulness. There is ignorance with each form of kusala. When there is ignorance there is mental clumsiness, whatever we endeavour goes wrong. There is no wieldiness, no adaptability that enables us to perform kusala. In the Great Forty, right understanding comes first is emphasized many times. This is right understanding of the eightfold Path. This is the condition for right endeavour. The Pali term viriya, is translated as effort or energy and this can be unwholesome, akusala or kusala. When it is kusala we can also think of courage, courage to persevere with kusala. -------- Ch: The Chinese passage reads: "So as to not give rise to unarisen evil dharmas, > he initiates the desire, pursues the skillfulness [=effort], endevours, > rouses his mind, and cessation... [etc]." I have rendered it as "cessation" here > in the Chinese passage because is the usually meaning. It is usually the > Chinese equivalent of nirodha or nivrtthi. ------ N: You did not finish the sentence. But nirodha, cessation, is a term for nibbaana. The end of defilements. The eightfold Path is leading towards it. The term viraaga is also used, without passion. Viraaga is used for arahatship as well as for nibbaana. Nina. 48493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens I nilovg Hi Jon, Herman, op 04-08-2005 08:28 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@...: > > Yes, you are quite a softie actually, much different to your on-list > persona ;-)) ------ N: I have always known Herman as a person full of concern for my father, our life with my father and the dog, and the music. Of course I have a common bond with Herman: the music. Nina. 48494 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 4:04am Subject: Re: Tep & Htoo dialogue htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > As you know, my original posting at 'Universalanswer' was intended > for the general public, not Abhidhamma scholars. So it seems that > originally my two questions are too simplistic for DSG. > > The thought that motivated this simplistic message ("Which is true?") is > whether there is two-way conditionality between clinging(upadana) and > fabrications(sankhara) and, given that there is, if there is always avijja > associated with the two dhammas. Diagrametrically, the two way > linking is given below. Here, an arrow indicates precedence and the > square bracket indicates association. > > Case I. Upadana [Avijja] ----> Sankhara ---> Dukkha > Case II. Sankhara[Avijja] ----> Upadana ---> Dukkha > > ------------------------------- > > The main points in your reply are : > > Htoo: (Case II) "Further fabrications are based on former data, which > are already deluded by ignorance. 'San Fransisco' 'money' etc are > also not phenomena. They are just constructed ideas. When these are > ignored there always arise suffering and more suffering". > > Tep: So you are in agreement with the above diagram. > > ----------------------- > > Htoo: (Case I) "... there is no person, no car at all. After this initial rolling > of different mental phenomena basing on physical phenomena there > follow further rollings. These further rollings add to the existing data and > ideas are constructed. At the time of construction there are many > attachments arise because of ignorance. Finally because of this > ignorance 'a nice sport car' is seen by 'a person'. > > Tep: I take the above to mean that you are also in agreement with the > above diagram. Great, this is a rare situation that we both agree 100%! > Thank you, Htoo. > > Also, I very much appreciate your creative analysis of the mental > processes by using citta-vithi and bhavanga. Yes, it is clear from the > Abhidhamma perspective that "But in essence there is no car or > person at all." > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I was smiling when we this time agree 100 %. People may not know our boxing. But we are always friends. Recently I was kicked out by a smiler with metta. Now re-engage again in a fairly good mood, I think. But this is not here. With respect, Htoo Naing 48495 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 4:08am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 463 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma. They are a) akusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment- wisdom, and d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. a) akusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma These akusala dhamma are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers Aasava is a Pali word. Aasava = aa + savati. Aa means 'up to' and savati means 'flow'. Aasava is like the flow of pus from a wound or from a sore or from an ulcer up to the surface and then trickling. A sore in a part of the human body is collection of pus deeply submerged under the skin. So the pus flows 'up to' the surface. And it dischages and flow. Aasava dhamma is like pus flowing. Aasava flows up to the topmost plane of existence called nevasanna- -nasanna-ayatana bhuumi or 4th aruupa brahma realm. Aasava dhamma also flow up to the highest consciousness in the mundane realm of consciousness. There are 81 mundane consciousness and 8 supramundane consciousness. When arahatta magga citta is just going to arise there arises a series of procession consciousness or vithi cittas. This procession is a special procession unlike other processions, where there are 7 successive mental impulsive consciousness with the same characters and the same accompanying dhamma. But in that procession or arahatta magga viithi there are conscious- ness arise in exact order like this. BBB --infinity-- BBB | M PUAGMPP | BBBBBB --infinity-- BBB There are 3 parts in the above demonstration of cittas in procession. The parts are boundried by the mark '' | ''. The middle part is arahatta magga viithi vara or 'the turn of series of consciousness in procession leading to defilements-eradicating-path-consciousness'. The first part is composed of all 'B' which is bhavanga citta. So does the last or the third part in the above demonstration. The middle one will be explained below. After stoppage of arising of the last bhavanga citta there arises M or manodvara-avajjana citta or 'mind-door-adverting consciousness. This kiriya citta or functional consciousness is followed by 7 successive mental impulsive conscious-ness. These 7 cittas or consciousness are 1. parikamma (P) mahaakusala citta (preparatory consciousness) 2. upacaara (U) mahaakusala citta (proximity consciousness) 3. anuloma (A) mahaakusala citta (adaptation consciousness) 4. gotrabhu (G) mahaakusala citta (lineage-changing consciousness) 5. magga (M) lokuttara-kusala citta (arahatta path-consciousness) 6. phala (P) lokuttara-vipaaka citta(arahatta fruition-consci.) 7. phala (P) lokuttara-vipaaka citta(arahatta fruition-consci.) [M here stands for arahatta magga citta or arahatta path-consciousness and P here stands for arahatta phala citta or arahatta fruition-consc] Aasava flows up to the topmost consciousness of adaptation and after that gotrabhu or lineage-changing consciousness leaves the world of mundane and joins the world of supramundane and then all aasava become dry up (aasavakkhaya). May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48496 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 4:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 464 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers Aasava dhamma are cankers. They are erosive sores with flowing pus. Aasava dhamma is like the flow of pus. It flows up to the surface. Before it flows up to the surface, actually it has been formed deep in the tissue for indefinite time. Likewise akusala aasava dhamma are there in beings for indefinite time since they have been in their samsara. Aasava dhamma is like many many years old (indefinite years) liquor and it intoxicates beings. Aasava dhamma are mind-intoxicants. Like years-old liquor these aasava dhamma are samsara-old liquor or samsara-old intoxicants. These intoxicants are dried up and completely destroyed by arahatta magga naana only. There are 4 aasava dhamma. They are 1. kaamaasava or canker of sensuous-desire 2. bhavaasava or canker of existence-desire (desire for rebith) 3. ditthaasava or canker of wrong view 4. avijjaasava or canker of ignorance These intoxicants or canker are destroyed completely by arahatta magga naana. There are 4 path-knowledge or 4 magga naana. These naana arise at their specific time of arising of magga citta of their respective stages of enlightenment. There are 4 magga naana or 4 path-knowledge. They are 1. sotapatti magga naana (stream-entering path-knowledge) 2. sakadaagaami magga naana(once-returning path-knowledge) 3. anaagaami magga naana (non-returning path-knowledge) 4. arahatta magga naana (arahatta path-knowledge or eradicators' p-k) Sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge destroyes ditthaasava completely and ditthi never arises in those who become stream-enterers. Sakadaagaami magga naana or once-returning path- knowledge thins out existing kaamaasava. Anaagaami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge destroyes and dry up kaamasava or canker of sensuous desire. All remaining aasava dhamma are totally eradicated by arahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge and when there is no more aasava then the beings who attain arahatta magga naana become the pure and they obtain Holy life and become highest saints. The basic dhamma of kaamasava is tanha and it is lobha cetasika. The dhamma-kaaya of bhavaasava or canker of existence-desire is also tanha and it is lobha cetasika. Lobha cetasika is also known as tanha. There are 3 kinds of tanha and they are kaama-tanha or craving for sensuous desire, bhava-tanha or craving for existence (including sensuous planes), and vibhava-tanha or craving for non-existence. In aasava dhamma the first two aasava are both lobha cetasika as dhamma-kaaya or the base body of dhamma or sabhava dhamma. But the first aasava or kaamaasava flows to sensuous objects while the second aasava or bhavaasava flows to existences. The third aasava or canker is ditthaasava or canker of wrong view and this intoxicant or canker flows to viewing in wrong sense. Because of this aasava all beings who are puthujanas or non-saints or non-ariyas see with wrong view of 'me' 'mine' 'I' etc. This canker flows spreading the pus along other akusala dhamma. The fourth aasava, avijjaasava or canker of ignorance is the worst of all canker. The dhamma-kaaya or the basic dhamma of these avijjaasava is moha cetasika. This cetasika is the leader of all akusala dhamma. This aasava flows towards the objects and from this it erodes all mind and mind-related off-springs since the pus of avaijjaasava flows and erode all nearby structures that are in proximity with original object where the canker of ignorance started to flow. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48497 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Jon & Sarah) - In a message dated 8/4/05 2:24:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Jon and Sarah (from here I'll use J & S for short) remarked how things seemed to be "different" in this, my latest sojourn at dsg. I agreed, and said I realised that it was more important to have metta than to be right (or something like that). ----------------------------------------- Howard: I sure like that! :-) --------------------------------------- I added that I hoped that this realisation wasn't because of my medication. -------------------------------------- Howard: It could be an accumulated effect, if you'd change the 'd' to a 't' in 'medication'! ;-) More seriously, while nama and rupa are distinguishable, they aren't independent, and, IMO, correcting glitches of any sort is just to retore normal conditions. (All to the good!) ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48498 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - metta and social cittas. nilovg Hi Herman, Christine made me laugh that you will end up in Bgk. I hope many people will. As Jon said: do not be mistaken about Kh. Sujin. I shall come back to this point. Thank you for your post, and I have a few reactions. op 04-08-2005 08:23 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: Enter J & S, and the subject of clinging. They pointed out the > pitfalls of wanting to have metta, wanting to be a particular way. I > said that I thought I was a nicer, better person this way and that it > was better for those I dealt with and myself to be this way. ----- Lodewijk and I discussed metta with this in mind: the paramattha dhammas and the social cittas which can be combined. Joop has discussed this so much with Ven. Samahita. The Visuddhimagga says that metta is towards a living being, a concept. We had to take care of my father when he was still alive. But he would yell at me sometimes, and I asked Kh Sujin's advice. She said: he is not your father. Then it will help to realize: what is heard is just sound and the thinking with aversion is another type of nama. Considering oneself and others as impersonal elements that do not last sure helps. On the other hand: we had to take care of my father, a person, he was there. But the combination of absolute and social can be quite natural. Through the Dhamma I learn more details about cittas and I learn not to take for metta what seems metta but is selfish affection. This helps to develop true metta without expecting anything for oneself. But in pratice we see that kusala is always alternated with a lot of akusala. This should not distress us, but we should be grateful to the Buddha who taught us in detail about kusala and akusala. When in Thailand I see each time how perfectly natural Kh Sujin is. Nothing artificial in her behaviour, nothing forced. To me it seems forced having to think: I have to have metta for a heap of five khandhas. I do not live in that way. What I learnt from Kh Sujin: when you think of others you think less of yourselves. Note: think of others, of persons. Herman, you do not have to worry about your metta or the medication. But I do not think you worry about it. I think that too much reasoning about our life, our practice is confusing. ------ H: . Far > better to be aware of the present moment and to understand it. J & S > often used a very nice phrase to capture this idea, "proving the dhamma". ------ N: That is a great thing, we can verify in our life what the Buddha taught. ---------- H: Also, no valid comparison is to be made between Arthur and, > say, Rupert Murdoch, because we see only the surface. Nothing can be > said about their respective levels of well-being. Who knows the > internal sufferings of anyone? Rather, is there awareness of the > present moment as dhammas, and understanding of their arising and > ceasing, is there proving the dhamma right here and right now, that's > all that counts. --------- N: Let's keep on verifying the Dhamma, in life, not just in theory. ------ H: This seems to be a good place to end this section. At this time we > were seated on a wooden bench overlooking the harbour, Jon on the > left, Herman in the middle and Sarah on the right, with an endless > stream of joggers and walkers going past in both directions. ------ N: I see the three of you sitting there. I like the couleur locale. Nina. 48499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: meeting with Antony Woods - worldly conditions and more.... nilovg Hi Jon and Anthony, Here we have it again: the verifying. I like what Jon says here. It is also for me so easy to think: this must be kusala, but no. We keep on assuming, Nina. op 04-08-2005 08:12 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@...: > Antony: I mentioned when singing the national anthem upon seeing a >> flag getting thrills in my scalp (goose bumps?) and we concluded that >> it wasn't the jhana-factor of piti (rapture) but sense pleasure. > > For most of us it's a safe bet that whatever the experience it's likely to > be akusala of one kind or another ;-)). I find it very helpful to > remember this as, in my case at least, there is such a strong inclination > to assume the opposite. 48500 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 3, 2005 10:41pm Subject: The Chain ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Like a simple Dog chained to a strong Steel Post! Imagine, friends, a dog tied with a chain bound to a strong post: It would remain running & circling around that very same post... So too, the unlearned ordinary person, who regards form as self, who regards feeling as self, who regards perception as self, who regards constructions as self, who regards consciousness as self... He keeps whirling & spinning around those 5 clusters of clinging!!! Furthermore: If that dog walks, or stands, or sits down, or lies down, it does all that always quite close to that very same post... So too, friends, an untrained ordinary person, who regards form thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'. Who regards feeling, perception, constructions, & consciousness thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' If he walks, he walks quite close to those 5 clusters of clinging! If he stands, or if he sits down, or lies down, he always does that, as if locked to those five clusters of clinging!!! As bound, he keeps running & circling around form, around feeling, around perception, around constructions, & around consciousness... Since he keeps on rotating & spiralling around them, he is neither freed from form, nor from feeling, nor from perception, nor from constructions, nor is he freed from consciousness. Thus, I tell you, is he neither freed from birth, aging, decay nor death, neither is he freed from sorrow, pain, lamentation, discontent, desperate despair, neither is he freed from this entire mass of Suffering ... !!! Commentary: The foolish ordinary person is like the dog, his view is like the chain!, his artificial 'I'-dentity (egoism) is like the post. Like the dog's running around the post, is the ordinary person's running around his assumed personal identity, bound to it by craving, clinging & constructed views! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XXII (99-100); [III 149-152] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 An Ocean of Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Khandha On Clusters! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48501 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 2:30pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding buddhatrue Hi Herman and All, I am finding your posts about meeting Jon and Sarah quite interesting and somewhat amusing. Just some observations: what did you expect when you met them? Did you think that they would be stark raving mad and beat you over the head with an umbrella? ;-)) You seem to be confusing personality with insight. It doesn't matter how nice they are, or how well they talk, or how calm they appear to be, from what I am reading they are still misrepresenting what the Buddha taught. Buddhism shouldn't be approached as a cult of personality. First, they talk about a fear of 'clinging to metta' when that is an impossibility. It is not possible to cling to metta because metta is the opposite of clinging. If there is any clinging, root tendencies or outright, then it isn't metta which is being clung to. And, there is nothing wrong with the desire and the practice of developing metta. The Buddha described how to do it, the Vism. describes how to do it, and now Sarah and Jon are saying that any effort to cultivate metta is clinging. Again, they might be incredibly nice people, but they are misrepresenting the Buddha. And, Herman, I don't know why you are being so hard on yourself. Your posts of the past, while sometimes sarcastic, were at least truthful. I would prefer a grimace with the truth rather than smiles with lies anyday. Metta, James 48502 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - metta and social cittas. egberdina Hi Nina and Christine, That sure was a very nice and witty post of Christine's. But you never know, do you? You might be happy to know I am now the proud owner of a Nina van Gorkum book, courtesy of Jon and Sarah. Buddhism in Daily Life. Thank you, thank you. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > Christine made me laugh that you will end up in Bgk. I hope many people > will. As Jon said: do not be mistaken about Kh. Sujin. I shall come back to > this point. > Thank you for your post, and I have a few reactions. > 48503 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 3:23pm Subject: Botanical Gardens - The Kuti, the chicken and the egg egberdina Hi All, At one point, the discussion came around to work. Jon has just retired, Sarah retired a little while ago, and J & S inquired how my work was going. I said it was going well, more than 3 years now of running my own business. I said that I was fortunate, and probably only worked about 20 hours a week. I did not want to turn my work into an occupation, but it was just to keep us comfortable. I explained that much of the other time I head out to our property, out of town, 15 hectares of virgin bushland. And that we had put a container on there as a dwelling, we put some windows in it, a wood heater, a bed, plumbed some water to it from our rain tank, and had a battery with a solar panel for our electricity. I refer to it as our kuti, and I said I would post a photo or two. (which I must do). At later points, we came back to the kuti. I explained that it was "expedient means" for me. There is not another soul out there within kilometres, only the birds, kangaroos and wild goats. And that it is in sharp contrast with any social situation. I expressed my view that in any social situation, for a normal person, at the fore of the mind are the expectations one believes others have of you, and the expectations you have of others, and that in such a situation awareness of namas and rupas was not likely to arise. I mentioned some loosely remembered teachings about people being yoked to family, houses, friends, teachings not being likely to progress, and that people unyoked are more likely to progress, or at least have awareness of present moments. It sounds like I did all the talking here, but rest assured that J & S were in their, presenting their case for the present moment being just that, and that whatever surrounded it was just a story. Awareness of the present moment can arise at any time. This raised another recurring theme. The difference between "CAN awareness arise anytime, and DOES awareness arise anytime". We all agreed that it can arise anytime, regardless of the story or situation, but I persevered with believing that it is more likely to arise in unyoked situations. This is where the chicken and the egg came in. People caught up in the story of their daily life can keep doing so forever. Unless there is an egg or a seed that ripens, there is no chicken of awareness. There is no spontaneous awareness. I saw value in putting oneself in situations where one believed awareness could more easily come to the fore, which would be the egg for it to arise at any other time, even when one was caught up in the story. I will not say that there was agreement either way, but certainly understanding of each others viewpoint. J & S stressed that it was important to eradicate the underlying tendencies. If one put oneself in surroundings believed conducive to awareness, it was easy to become deluded about progress. The real test is daily life, the hustle and the bustle, the cut and the thrust. They mentioned exemplary monks who on disrobing fell back into lives full of lust and craving. This section is not finished, but I have an appointment to keep. (Daily life is always at the fore, even when it is in the background). I will resume later. Kind Regards Herman 48504 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding upasaka_howard Hi again, Herman - In a message dated 8/4/05 11:10:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: It could be an accumulated effect, if you'd change the 'd' to a 't' in 'medication'! ;-) ====================== Please make that "change the 'c' to a 't' in 'medication'! " ;-)) With metta-tation, ;-) Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48505 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. nilovg Hi Howard, you explained to me about entities and also that dhammas do not arise independently. Ever since I was wondering of what cases you thought with regard to a belief that dhammas would arise independently. Is it a question of language? Here you say: Thus, distinguishable. I am thinking of the first stage of tender insight here. When saying that one characteristic appears at a time, is there something not clear in the way of expression? This does not mean that a nama or rupa arises independently, impossible. But, citta and thus also citta with sati can be aware, mindful, of one object at a time, either nama or rupa. What do you think about this? The expression 'it appears' is often used to express this. Is there a lack of clarity here? Nina. op 04-08-2005 17:08 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > More seriously, while nama and rupa are distinguishable, they aren't > independent 48506 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles You are write about how the Buddha defines self. My point is that by today's standards .... (to communicate clearly with all). Think about it. If you tell a non-Buddhist that they do not have a self, they will think you are .... But to say the self is not permanent, unchanging, nor a soul, then that person might start to lessen because you make since. CharlesD PS: A lot of different types of people pass through forums like this one so it is very useful to ... ---- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 03 August, 2005 00:41 Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Charles, Basically, points 1, 2 & 3 I agree with you (points 2 & 3 are trying to resolve the semantics issue). In point 4 I disagree that the western dictionary term for self can be used as a definition for this discussion because the Buddha quite clearly defines self as a permanent, unchanging substance. In an earlier post on this subject you state that what the Buddha was talking about is what we in the western world understand as the soul. While I don't like using terms that are in common use in western religions, I would have to agree in this instance that this is the best word to use. Therefore, as Theravadins Buddhists, you and I and others here would have to agree that there is no soul to be found amoungst the aggregates, either internally or externally. I was actually agreeing with you in the post below except for the definition of terms which are just labels we apply to things. It does make it difficult when all the translations use self instead of soul but it is understandable that terminology will be an issue in many areas when such a huge body of work is translated by so many different people. With Metta, Evan 48507 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self dacostacharles Hi mike This is actually the common belief in India at the time of the Buddha. It is the Belief the Buddha was taught. CharleD ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 03 August, 2005 19:26 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self Hi Evan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:41 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A flash of my self > ...the Buddha quite clearly defines self as a permanent, unchanging > substance. Interesting! Could you please tell us where in the tipi.taka the Buddha does this? Thanks in Advance, mike 48508 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali for 'motivation' dacostacharles Tak ----- Original Message ----- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 26 July, 2005 08:12 Subject: [dsg] Pali for 'motivation' Friend Robert (rjkjp1) wrote: What is the pali word for 'motivation'? Sankappa meaning also intention or purpose is best shot IMHO. : - ] 48509 From: nina Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 2:10am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 178. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 178. Intro: The Visuddhimagga deals here with the second type of moha-muulacitta, that is rooted in delusion, accompanied by restlessness or agitation (uddhacca). This type of citta is not accompanied by doubt. It is accompanied by determination or resolution (adhimokkha) which is absent in the first type of moha-muulacitta. Therefore, the second type of moha-muulacitta has the same number of accompanying cetasikas as the first type. It is accompanied by five universals (cetasikas which accompany every citta) that are included in the khandha of formations. These are: contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, which accompany every citta are not reckoned here since they are not the khandha of formations. As we have seen, the first type of moha-muulacitta is accompanied by weak concentration. The second type of moha-muulacitta is accompanied by concentration that is stronger, because it is also accompanied by determination. Thus we see that the dhammas that arise together condition one another. Of the six particulars of applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination, only four types accompany the second type of moha-muulacitta, because rapture and wish-to-do are excluded. There is no piiti since the accompanying feeling is indifferent. Wish-to-do which searches for the object is lacking because moha-muulacitta is deluded and distracted. Moreover, this type of citta is accompanied by the four akusala cetasikas that arise with every akusala citta: moha, shamelessness, recklessness, and agitation, uddhacca. Thus, it is accompanied by thirteen cetasikas in all that are included in the khandha of formations. Resolution and attention (a universal) are reckoned here as supplementary factors, or what-ever cetasikas. ****** Text Vis. 178: [The consciousness] associated with agitation (33) has the same [formations as the consciousness] associated with uncertainty (32, vicikicchaa), except for uncertainty (l). But with the absence of uncertainty resolution (xxix) arises here. So with that they are likewise thirteen, and concentration (viii) is stronger because of the presence of resolution. Also agitation is given in the texts as such, while resolution (xxix) and attention (xxx) are among the or-whatever-states. Thus should the unprofitable formations be understood. ****** Conclusion: The Dhammasanga.ni (§ 429) defines uddhacca: . The Expositor (II, p. 346) explains:,¹of mind¹ means excluding a being or a man...> . We are inclined to take distraction or agitation for self, but here we are reminded that it does not belong to a person. The expression avuupasamo cetaso, disquietude of citta, is also used. When there is uddhacca there is no peace of mind, no calm. It prevents the performance of daana, siila and mental development. There is calm with each kind of kusala that arises. Stiffness and torpor (thiina-middha) do not arise with the two types of moha-muulacitta because they only arise with prompted akusala citta and then only occasionally. The two types of moha-muulacitta are weak, not keen. They are utterly deluded as the Tiika states. Therefore it is not said of these that they are unprompted or prompted. They are not accompanied by sloth and torpor. The first type, with doubt, can produce rebirth, and the second type, with restlessness, does not produce rebirth-consciousness, but it can produce akusala vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. As we read in the Tiika Vis. XIV, 93: Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness completely. In the foregoing paragraphs the Visuddhimagga has dealt with all the akusala cetasikas included in sankhaarakkhandha that accompany in different combinations the eight akusala cittas rooted in lobha, the two akusala cittas rooted in dosa and the two akusala cittas rooted in moha. They each perform their own function while they accompany akusala citta. Considering their characteristics and functions helps us to see that akusala citta is a conditioned dhamma, non-self. ****** Nina 48510 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 1:43am Subject: What are the 5 Clusters of Clinging ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the Five Primary Categories of Being ? I: There is the cluster of clinging to Material Form (Rupa): Form or materiality is composed of these 4 Primary Elements: 1: Solidity based microscopically on the force of extension. 2: Fluidity based microscopically on the force of cohesion. 3: Heat based microscopically on the property of vibration. 4: Motion based microscopically on the property of energy. From these 4 can be derived 24 other formed phenomena... Whatever there are of formed things, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this form group. Desire, lust craving & clinging to that, is the cluster of clinging to form! II: There is the cluster of clinging to Mental Feeling (Vedana): There are these five kinds of Feeling: 1: Bodily pleasurable feeling and 2: Bodily painful feeling. 3: Mental happy feeling and 4: Mental unhappy feeling. 5: Indifferent feeling: Neither painful, pleasurable, sad nor glad. Which each can be born of eye contact, or ear contact, or nose contact, or tongue contact, or body contact or mental contact... Whatever there is of feeling, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this feeling group. Desire, lust, & craving for and clinging to these reactions, is the cluster of clinging to feeling! III: There is the cluster of clinging to Mental Perception (Sañña): There are these six kinds of Perception: 1: Visual perception of form & color. 2: Auditory perception of sound. 3: Olfactory perception of smell. 4: Gustatory perception of taste. 5: Tactile perception of touch. 6: Mental perception of ideas & states. Whatever there is of perception, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this perception group. Desire, lust, craving for and clinging to these experiences, is the cluster of clinging to perception! IV: There is the cluster of clinging to Mental Construction (Sankhara): There are six kinds of mental construction dealing with visual objects, or hearable objects, or smellable objects, or tastable objects, touchable or mental objects. Whatever there is of mental construction, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this mental construction group. Desire, craving for and clinging to these objectives, is the cluster of clinging to construction! V: There is the cluster of clinging to Consciousness (Viññana): There are six kinds of consciousness: 1: Visual consciousness of seeing. 2: Auditory consciousness of hearing. 3: Olfactory consciousness of smelling. 4: Gustatory consciousness of tasting. 5: Tactile consciousness of touching. 6: Mental consciousness of thinking. Whatever there is of consciousness, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this consciousness group. Desire, lust & craving for and clinging to this awareness, is the cluster of clinging to consciousness! The Blessed Buddha said: Recluses & priests, who knows the causation, the ceasing, and the way leading to the ceasing of these five clusters of clinging, who are practicing disgust towards these, for their fading away and dissolution, they are practicing well! They are later released and well liberated through this very non-clinging... Those who are well liberated are consummate ones, completed ones... There is no way of describing such utterly perfected ones... There is nothing in this Universe apart from these 5 Clusters of Clinging... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XXII (56); [III 59-61] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 A Vast Ocean of True Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Khandha On these Clusters! http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm See details under: K for Khandha. ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! ... 48511 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 6:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 465) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 4 aasavas or cankers namely kaamaasava or canker of sensuous-desire, bhavaasava or canker of existence-desire, ditthaasava or canker of wrong-view, avijjaasava or canker of ignorance are flowing almost all the time since we were born and this will be continuing till we die unless arahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge arise in the course of life. Aasava dhamma are like years-old liquor and they are intoxicants of indefinite period. They flow among beings and this flows up to the highest realm in the 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. In other word these aasava dhamma flows up to the highest mundane consciousness of adaptation consciousness or anuloma citta. These aasavas have been there for a long long time and this long time is indifinite and the beginning will not be possible to detect or to trace where do they start to flow. However, if they are examined thoroughly then how they flow can be seen with mind-eye. There are aayaatana or sense-bases. 6 are bahiddhika aayatana and 6 are ajjhattika aayatana. This means that 6 sense-bases are outside of beings or external to beings in question and 6 sense-bases are inside of beings in question. Internal sense-bases are 1. cakkhaayatana or eye-sense-base 2. sotaayatana or ear-sense-base 3. ghaanaayatana or nose-sense-base 4. jivhaayatana or tongue-sense-base 5. kaayaayatana or body-sense-base 6. manaayatana or mind-sense-base and external sense-bases are 1. ruupaayatana or form-sense-base 2. saddaayatana or sound-sense-base 3. gandhaayatana or smell-sense-base 4. rasaayatana or taste-sense-base 5. photthabbaayatana or touch-sense-base 6. dhammaayatana or mind-object-sense-base The aasava dhamma start to flow from these sense-bases. These sense-bases are stretch, extent, reach, compass, region; sphere, locus, place, spot; position, occasion. Because of these there arise contact and other mental factors along with consciousness at these sense-bases.Aasava start to flow from mind and from these 6 external sense-bases and these 6 internal sense-bases to intoxicate all arising dhamma connected with these aayatana dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48512 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 6:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 466) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 2. ogha dhamma or flood This is also a stock of akusala or this is akusala sangaha of ogha dhamma. Ogha means 'flood of water'. Maha-ogha or mahogha means 'great flood'. Ogha or flood sweeps beings down to lower destinations. Ogha sweeps beings away from the security of emancipation. Ogha sinks all beings down to lower destinations and liberation is far away when oghas are constantly striking down and and sinking down. There are 4 ogha dhamma. They are 1. kaamogha ( kaama-Ogha ) or flood of sensuous-desire 2. bhavogha ( bhava-ogha ) or flood of existence-desire 3. ditthogha( ditthi-ogha) or flood of wrong-view 4. avijjogha( avijja-ogha) or flood of ignorance When these floods are there beings cannot overcome them and beings have to sink down to lower destination. These 4 floods sweep beings away from liberation or emancipation. These floods carry beings away from the security of emancipation. However large they are all these floods can be overcome by higher knowledge or anuttara naana namely sotapatti magga naana or stream- entering path-knowledge, sakadaagaami magga nana or once-returning path-knowledge, anaagaami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge and arahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge or eradicating path-knowledge. Among these four floods ditthogha or the flood of wrong view can be overcome by stream-entering path-knowledge. When this path-knowledge arise that flood of wrong view or ditthogha can no more sweep stream enterers away and sink down to unhappy destination. Because that path knowledge knows exactly what that ogha is like and how to overcome that ogha or flood. Stream-enterers all see naama as naama and ruupa as ruupa and they are no more deluded by self-identity view and so the flood of wrong- viewing on naama and ruupa cannot sink all those stream-enterers down to unhappy destination. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48513 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/5/05 3:43:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, you explained to me about entities and also that dhammas do not arise independently. Ever since I was wondering of what cases you thought with regard to a belief that dhammas would arise independently. Is it a question of language? ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it's more a matter of how phenomena are sensed. While one may intellectually realize that one phenomenon arises in dependence on several others, yet because that phenomenon is distinguishable from the others (and, indeed, we don't confuse hardness with sights, or love with fear), and because of our deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making," there is the tendency to *sense* it and *think* of it as a separate, self-existent entity with a core of own-being and that is merely *related* to the others, which also are separate self-existent entities. Our conceptual faculty, overwhelmed by ignorance, creates hardened concepts of entities that affect our perception. So one seems to see a vast plurality of separate self-existent entities that interact, like billiard balls, rather than fleeting, interdependent aspects of a vast, dynamic, experiential net, each nothing in-and-of-itself. ------------------------------------------ Here you say: Thus, distinguishable. I am thinking of the first stage of tender insight here. ------------------------------------ Howard: I think we need to be careful about this business of distinguishing nama from rupa. As I see it, if it means distinguishing mental from physical in general, the distinction is valid, real, and important. It is also, for me, quite clear ( or so it seems ;-). Of course, I might well be deluded in how much clarity I have in that respect. But I think that it is common for people - I've even seen some Abhidhammikas fall into this - to conflate 'rupa' with 'arammana', and to understand distinguishing nama from rupa, not as a matter of distinguishing mental from physical in general, but of subject from object. But distinguishing subject from object is what all worldings do, and in its hardened form, it produces the sense of an "I" entity grasping an "other" entity, a form of solidified duality that, IMO, lies at the root of our un-knowing. ------------------------------------------------- When saying that one characteristic appears at a time, is there something not clear in the way of expression? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not clear here as to what you mean by one "characteristic" at a time. I agree there is but one arammana at a time. At a moment that hardness is the objective content, visual object is not. I certainly believe that. ----------------------------------------------- This does not mean that a nama or rupa arises independently, impossible. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. It doesn't mean that. -------------------------------------------- But, citta and thus also citta with sati can be aware, mindful, of one object at a time, either nama or rupa. What do you think about this? ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't dispute it. ----------------------------------------- The expression 'it appears' is often used to express this. Is there a lack of clarity here? --------------------------------------- Howard: No problem with this as far as I'm concerned. --------------------------------------- Nina. op 04-08-2005 17:08 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > More seriously, while nama and rupa are distinguishable, they aren't > independent ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your answer. I am a slow thinker, and will reflect more, during our walk, and see whether I want to add anything. Nina op 05-08-2005 16:04 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, it's more a matter of how phenomena are sensed. While one may > intellectually realize that one phenomenon arises in dependence on several > others, > yet because that phenomenon is distinguishable from the others (and, indeed, > we > don't confuse hardness with sights, or love with fear), and because of our > deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making," there is the tendency to > *sense* > it and *think* of it as a separate, self-existent entity with a core of > own-being and that is merely *related* to the others, which also are separate > self-existent entities. 48515 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding egberdina Hi James, As always , it is good to hear from you again !! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Herman and All, > > I am finding your posts about meeting Jon and Sarah quite interesting > and somewhat amusing. == I'm glad :-). I'd hate to be the author of boring posts :-) == Just some observations: what did you expect > when you met them? Did you think that they would be stark raving mad > and beat you over the head with an umbrella? ;-)) == :-). To be honest, I did have some expectations. I expected that there might be some effort towards "conversion", and I expected that there might be some insistence on certain doctrinal points. But I found none of that at all. And the commentaries didn't even rate a mention :-) == You seem to be > confusing personality with insight. It doesn't matter how nice they > are, or how well they talk, or how calm they appear to be, from what I > am reading they are still misrepresenting what the Buddha taught. > Buddhism shouldn't be approached as a cult of personality. > == From past discussions, there are at times certainly differences in our approaches to what the Buddha taught. But my notes really only cover what transpired on the day, and I hope I am being careful enough not to attribute rightness or wrongness to anything that was said. But what was said was said, and it is already gone, long gone. == > First, they talk about a fear of 'clinging to metta' when that is an > impossibility. It is not possible to cling to metta because metta is > the opposite of clinging. If there is any clinging, root tendencies > or outright, then it isn't metta which is being clung to. And, there > is nothing wrong with the desire and the practice of developing metta. > The Buddha described how to do it, the Vism. describes how to do it, > and now Sarah and Jon are saying that any effort to cultivate metta is > clinging. Again, they might be incredibly nice people, but they are > misrepresenting the Buddha. > == It is well worth talking about the things you raise here, if not of the most critical importance, and I hope to come back to it after I finish writing up re our meeting. If I don't do that first, I'm going to start confusing what happened on the day with other stuff. What was clear on the day was that there was an all-round understanding of the fleeting nature of everything. From the most profound and precious insight, to a moment of ill-will. There really is nothing to be clung to. And wanting to have that peace, that calm, that insight, that anger or whatever of yesterday, just doesn't bear fruit. But I appreciate that is not what you mean. And I do hope that others will comment. BTW, and I didn't expect it to be otherwise, Sarah is a study in harmlessness, compassionate understanding and kindness (to be harmless can have a negative connotation in Australia, but that's not how I mean it). It would be nice if she shared her recipe :-) > And, Herman, I don't know why you are being so hard on yourself. Your > posts of the past, while sometimes sarcastic, were at least truthful. > I would prefer a grimace with the truth rather than smiles with lies > anyday. == Thank you very much for saying this, James. I have thought at times that I am painting myself very negatively. Really, I am and have been a very nice person, most of the time :-). And I would expect, were we ever to meet, to find you a study in composure and restraint. We both are pretty much straight to the point. And there's nothing wrong with that. My apologies of late are for those times when I wrote things, knowing they were in anger, or knowing they had an intentional barb. And I think there is so much wisdom on the list, that anyone's irritations receive no attention at all. Thanks for writing, James and Kind Regards Herman 48516 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding kenhowardau Hi James (and Herman), You wrote to Herman: ----------------------- <. . .> J: > It doesn't matter how nice they are, or how well they talk, or how calm they appear to be, from what I am reading they are still misrepresenting what the Buddha taught. -------------- If Jon or Sarah or any other DSG member deviates from the ancient Theravada texts, it would be good of you to point that out. On the other hand, if they merely deviate from modern teachings that contradict the ancient texts, then that is of no consequence. -------------------------- J: > Buddhism shouldn't be approached as a cult of personality. First, they talk about a fear of 'clinging to metta' when that is an impossibility. -------------------------- Who (i.e., which personality) teaches metta can't be clung to? The Buddha taught that all mundane dhammas (the five aggregates of clinging) could be clung to. If we rarely cling to metta, that is mainly because metta, itself, is a rarity. The concept of metta is much more common, and it is persistently clung to. ------------------------------------------ J: > It is not possible to cling to metta because metta is the opposite of clinging. If there is any clinging, root tendencies or outright, then it isn't metta which is being clung to. ------------------------------------------- The Suttanta says it is possible, and the Abhidhamma explains exactly how it is possible. Each of those texts contains the word of the Buddha, and neither should be discredited or discarded. -------------------- J: > And, there is nothing wrong with the desire and the practice of developing metta. --------------------- As the Second Noble Truth, desire is the cause of all suffering. So it has a great deal wrong with it. -------------------------- J: > The Buddha described how to do it, the Vism. describes how to do it, and now Sarah and Jon are saying that any effort to cultivate metta is clinging. -------------------------- I take it you are using poetic license. As we both well know, neither Sarah nor Jon has ever suggested right effort involved clinging. --------------------------- J: > Again, they might be incredibly nice people, but they are misrepresenting the Buddha. --------------------------- If they are misrepresenting the Buddha they would love you to point that out for them. But you are judging them by what you and your personal teachers believe. As you have explained many times, you believe large sections of the ancient texts should be discreted and discarded. ---------------------------------- J: > And, Herman, I don't know why you are being so hard on yourself. ----------------------------------- Herman wasn't being hard on himself. He specifically said his apologies were not "morose." --------------------------------- J: > Your posts of the past, while sometimes sarcastic, were at least truthful. ----------------------------------- They are still truthful. --------------------------------- H: > I would prefer a grimace with the truth rather than smiles with lies anyday. ---------------------------------- Yuk, I won't rise to that bait. I am sure you will apologise for it one day. :-) Ken H 48517 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Botanical Gardens - What's the right thing to do? egberdina Hi all, I have lost the thread of yesterday's post, so I'll just start with a fresh one. At one point of time, Sarah had to trot off to the loo (WC). I think it must have been vipaka (warm soy milk). Jon and I followed at a casual pace. When we met up with Sarah again, she had lost her sunglasses and was looking for them. I whispered to Jon that Sarah was clinging, and Jon, with a twinkle in his eyes said "You should tell her that". Anyway, Sarah backtracked in one direction, and Jon and I went in the direction we had come from, to see if we could find them. We discussed what would be the best thing to do if we found someone else's property. We both thought that if anyone found the sunglasses, if would be the most convenient if they just left them there, because we would find them ourselves. If they were found and taken to a lost property office somewhere, we would have to set about finding that first, and the episode could just drag on and on. Jon remarked that the Suttas were not about guidance in these situational situations, although he thought there might be something about lost property in the Vinaya. I remarked that the drawback of owning stuff was that you could/would lose it. We didn't find the glasses and headed back. We ran into Sarah again, who had met someone who had found her glasses. We sat down and chatted some more, and Sarah also said that for her it would have been most convenient if the glasses would have just been left where they were. But people act from their own beliefs, their own intentions. Agonising over what to do in a situation is just agonising over what to do. People just do what they do, and inherit the fruit of their action. J & S spoke about metta as being spontaneous, not thought about, just doing what one does. The discussion came round to my belief in some universal goodness, and J & S said that the only guarantee was that the doer inherits the fruit of their action. How other people receive your effort is totally out of your control, it just depends on their accumulations. We talked about directed and undirected effort. There was mention of the brahma-viharas being untargeted, they are without desire for a specific result here or there. They are more like an attitude that applies in all situations. At around 5 pm (we met shortly after 12) I warned J & S that I would not be taking my leave, because I could sit and talk to them for hours more. But finally, on the way home, Vicki and I discussed the afternoon, and she too said that she could have sat with us all afternoon, it was so pleasant and easy-going. She remarked that, during lunch, Jon had pointed out to her that there was a sign asking people not to feed the birds, which she was doing. That explained to her why another man had glared at her angrily, but she had no idea why. It was another example of people just doing what they do, believing it to be the right thing to do. Jon pointing out and explaining, another person being angry. Kind Regards Herman 48518 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - What's the right thing to do? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Jon & Sarah) - In a message dated 8/5/05 7:33:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: J & S spoke about metta as being spontaneous, not thought about, just doing what one does. ======================== I find it to be spontaneous in myself, and I have always found formal "metta meditation" to be artificial (for me, personally, that is). However, the Buddha did teach metta bhavana, and I have no doubt that "metta meditation" can indeed cultivate a growing tendency towards metta in many people, and also that, as the Buddha teaches, it can serve as an entree to the jhanas. With (spontaneous) metta ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48519 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 3:36am Subject: I lige Maade ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Charles DaCosta wrote: >Tak Selvtak! : - ] 48520 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 4:02am Subject: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) philofillet Hi all I met Rob K, his son Alex and his girlfriend Junko today in Tokyo. We had a good talk and some walking around. I particularly enjoyed Alex's enthusiastic questions about Dhamma. He's a cool kid. I'm getting busy with other things so won't have time to follow threads but I think I will pop in now and then with things I hear in the recorded talks. Here's one - Acharn Sujin said "First everything is dhamma, at the level of intellectual understanding, then moments of awareness of namas and rupas, until the moment that everything is dhamma at the level of" some advanced stage of insight - I forget the word. I feel so confident that we have to have a solid grounding of intellectual understanding - which involves *believing* the aspects of the Buddha's teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna to understand. This *must* come first. We must believe the Buddha's teaching and accept that the aspects that don't make sense yet are due to the huge shortcomings in our understanding rather than deficiencies in the Dhamma. We do not have anywhere near the degree of insight of the Buddha or noble ariyans so we should be humble and patient and understand to the degree that understanding arises due to conditions, rather than trying and trying and trying to understand to the degree that we *want* to. Again, sorry that I won't be replying. I will just drop these snippets now and then. I was very happy to read about all the meetings that have been going on. Metta, Phil 48521 From: "Justin" Date: Thu Aug 4, 2005 11:45pm Subject: Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hello Everyone, <...> I am in America this month. I just saw a program on TV tonight where evangelical preachers of huge protestant congregations were boasting about all of the missionaries they are sending around the world to bring 'christ' to misled followers of other religions. They say that the (non-x'tians) need a savior and that the only way to heaven is through 'jezuz christ'. Pure nonsense. Most people support freedom of religion, but they don't understand that that is really a buzzword for something else. This ideal of freedom of religion is commonly pushed by the evangelicals...and what it really means is this: 1) Freedom for evangelical christians to go anywhere in the world and try to spread there religion, while disespecting the culture and the native religions of the people. Isn't this a form of violence? Intolerance? 2) When the US gov't tries to spread 'Freedom', they always include 'freedom of religion' as part of this. Of course the goal is to push countries that don't allow missionaries (muslim countries, and most communist countries) to allow christian missionaries (provided by wealthy churches) to enter their countries <...> Foreign aid to countries such as Thailand is dependant on being on Americas 'good' side, which also means allowing these missionaries to flow freely. 3) They are only successful in developing nations because their wealth goes a long way, and there are few laws that limit their activty. In europe, evangelical christians are a very tiny minority. No one pays much attention to them. All of the religious freaks left (or were kicked out) a long time ago and settled In America.<....> 4) Most people say people should choose whatever religion they want. Of course, I agree with this, but they fail to see the bigger issue. They don't realize where the missionaries and the money and influence is coming from. <....> How successful have they have been? The largest protestant church in the world is now in South Korea (formerly Buddhist dominated). Sporadically,temples in South Korea have been vandalized with crucifixes and even burned by fanatacal christians. A former prime minister of south Korea had 'heathen' Buddhist images removed from gov't buildings. Now most business and political influence in Korea comes from christians. 50 years ago, they were a small minority in Korea. I think there are a lot more christians in thailand than the guide books or gov't website says. They says .5% . If a poll was taken today, I bet it would be closer to 3% or 4 %. The evangelical converts will do everything they can to make more. There are muslims, hindu's, sikh's...there is even an orthodox jewish temple close to my apartment in BKK.<...>They show no repect at all for Thai cuture and Buddhism--which is inseparable. If they ever get a foothold in the government, things will change for the worse and Buddhism will loose it's influence. What do you think? Cheers, Justin 48522 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 7:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' Evan_Stamato... Hi Justin. I think the following : 1. Haleluleahhhh brother. You have hit the nail on the head. And one of the more insidious ways that xtians get into coutries is through "aid" agencies which come in to distribute necessities in poor countries and of course spread their brand of religion. A bit like wolves in sheeps' clothing. 2. While xtians concentrate on spreading their brand of religion elsewhere, the rise of Buddhism is happening back in the western world. 3. All conditioned things are impermanent. Buddhism will eventually die, and so will xtianity and hinduism and all the other isms in the world. It's called samsara. With Metta, Evan 48523 From: "Justin" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hi Evan, Great post! Also, the christins sneak into the countries that don't allow them. It is hard to go to Laos to teach English because they have had so much experience of missionaries posing as English teachers. Of course, if the missionaries succeed, they will destabalize the governenment destroy the native cultres, and the Buddhist fabric of society. What you say is true. Everything will end. One day all of the religions we know will be gone.. and one day the sun will turn into a red giant and earth will be disintegrated. That said, it is still necessary to raise this issue and to do something about it where possible. If I could ever get a committed group to go to one of the poor Buddhist villages in the countryside that the missionaries are targeting, it would be great to go and give the people real aid, with no strings attached, while reminding and showing them the truth of Dhamma without any enticements to give up the religion that there ancestors have been a part of for hundreds of years. With metta also...cheers Justin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Justin. > > I think the following : > > 1. Haleluleahhhh brother. You have hit the nail on the head. And one of > the more insidious ways that xtians get into coutries is through "aid" > agencies which come in to distribute necessities in poor countries and > of course spread their brand of religion. A bit like wolves in sheeps' > clothing. > > 2. While xtians concentrate on spreading their brand of religion > elsewhere, the rise of Buddhism is happening back in the western world. > > 3. All conditioned things are impermanent. Buddhism will eventually die, > and so will xtianity and hinduism and all the other isms in the world. > It's called samsara. > > With Metta, > > Evan 48524 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' jonoabb Hi Justin I have heard it said that the greatest threat to the Dhamma is the wrong view of those who profess to follow it. For example, if monks or respected lay followers teach wrong dhamma, this is what will lead to Buddhism's decline. I think there is a lot in this. There have probably always been outsiders who promote other teachings among the followers of Dhamma, but it has survived so far becuase of the faith and understanding of its followers. The same will apply in the future. The best thing we can do to help preserve the teachings is to study the teachings and try ourselves to understand the Buddha's message. What do you think? Jon --- Justin wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > <...> > I am in America this month. I just saw a program on TV tonight where > evangelical preachers of huge protestant congregations were boasting > about all of the missionaries they are sending around the world to > bring 'christ' to misled followers of other religions. They say that > the (non-x'tians) need a savior and that the only way to heaven is > through 'jezuz christ'. Pure nonsense. <...> They show no > repect at all for Thai cuture and Buddhism--which is inseparable. If > they ever get a foothold in the government, things will change for > the worse and Buddhism will loose it's influence. > > What do you think? > > Cheers, > Justin 48525 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) jonoabb Hi Phil Good to hear from you again. You were fortunate to meet RobK for discussion. --- Philip wrote: > > > Hi all > > I met Rob K, his son Alex and his girlfriend Junko today in > Tokyo. We had a good talk and some walking around. I particularly > enjoyed Alex's enthusiastic questions about Dhamma. He's a cool kid. > > I'm getting busy with other things so won't have time to follow > threads but I think I will pop in now and then with things I hear in > the recorded talks. > > Here's one - Acharn Sujin said "First everything is dhamma, at > the level of intellectual understanding, then moments of awareness > of namas and rupas, until the moment that everything is dhamma at > the level of" some advanced stage of insight - I forget the word. As it happens, Sarah and I heard this same passage yesterday. Our hire car has an MP3 player, and we slipped in a CD of the India 2001 talks for the long drive up from Sydney (to Coffs Harbour). It made the day much less tiring than it would otherwise have been!! > I feel so confident that we have to have a solid grounding of > intellectual understanding - which involves *believing* the aspects > of the Buddha's teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna > to understand. This *must* come first. We must believe the Buddha's > teaching and accept that the aspects that don't make sense yet are > due to the huge shortcomings in our understanding rather than > deficiencies in the Dhamma. I'm not sure about having to 'believe' the aspects of the Buddha's teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna to understand, but it definitely helps if we are happy to take those aspects as a working hypothesis (to borrow Mike N's way of putting it). We do not have anywhere near the degree > of insight of the Buddha or noble ariyans so we should be humble and > patient and understand to the degree that understanding arises due > to conditions, rather than trying and trying and trying to > understand to the degree that we *want* to. > > Again, sorry that I won't be replying. I will just drop these > snippets now and then. I was very happy to read about all the > meetings that have been going on. Happy to have you around again. No need to feel obliged to reply (I know you have other projects that need your time and attention). Jon 48526 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 1:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness jonoabb Hi RobM Sorry to be so slow in coming in on this post of yours, but I have just come across the hardcopy I saved just before we left Hong Kong! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: ... > I am going back to the Suttas, what the Buddha said, rather than rely > on the commentary. Some interesting points: > 1. In this Sutta, the Buddha links samattha (tranquility / > concentration) with vipassana (insight) as a team; a "pair of swift > messengers". > 2. The Buddha does not equate samattha with jhana as the commentaries > do. > 3. The whole idea of "realities" and "concepts" does not come from > the Buddha, it comes from the commentaries. I am puzzled about the reference to samatha being equated with jhana (in the commentaries). Would you mind explaining what you mean by this. Thanks. Also, on the subject of realities vs. concepts, I think the question is whether the Buddha taught in the suttas about insight into dhammas or insight into dhammas and concepts. I think you are suggesting the latter. Have I understood you correctly? Jon 48527 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: I lige Maade ... egberdina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Charles DaCosta wrote: > > >Tak > > Selvtak! > : - ] Never mind the Christians, the Vikings are coming !!!! :-) Herman 48528 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James (and Herman), > > You wrote to Herman: > ----------------------- > <. . .> > J: > It doesn't matter how nice they > are, or how well they talk, or how calm they appear to be, from what I > am reading they are still misrepresenting what the Buddha taught. > -------------- > > If Jon or Sarah or any other DSG member deviates from the ancient > Theravada texts, it would be good of you to point that out. On the > other hand, if they merely deviate from modern teachings that > contradict the ancient texts, then that is of no consequence. > > -------------------------- James: I have already pointed out where they deviate from the ancient Theravad texts: in the teachings of the Buddha on the cultivation of metta and the Vism. that describes the technique leading to the cultivation of metta. Ken, you are well read enough in the texts so that I don't have to quote this material to you. You are just being unnecessarily obstinate. > J: > Buddhism shouldn't be approached as a cult of personality. > > First, they talk about a fear of 'clinging to metta' when that is an > impossibility. > -------------------------- > > Who (i.e., which personality) teaches metta can't be clung to? The > Buddha taught that all mundane dhammas (the five aggregates of > clinging) could be clung to. > > If we rarely cling to metta, that is mainly because metta, itself, is > a rarity. The concept of metta is much more common, and it is > persistently clung to. > > ------------------------------------------ James: Metta is not counted among the five aggregates of clinging. I can't follow your logic here. I wasn't talking about clinging to the "concept of metta" I was talking about clinging to metta itself. I won't get into an argument with you about the commonality of metta vs. the 'concept of metta'. Frankly, you often present yourself to be almost omniscient about such matters so discussion would be fruitless. Think what you may. I still purport that metta cannot be clung to. > J: > It is not possible to cling to metta because metta is > the opposite of clinging. If there is any clinging, root tendencies > or outright, then it isn't metta which is being clung to. > ------------------------------------------- > > The Suttanta says it is possible, and the Abhidhamma explains exactly > how it is possible. Each of those texts contains the word of the > Buddha, and neither should be discredited or discarded. > > -------------------- James: What are you talking about? This is nonsense, jibberish. Please be more specific. > J: > And, there is nothing wrong with the desire and the practice of > developing metta. > --------------------- > > As the Second Noble Truth, desire is the cause of all suffering. So > it has a great deal wrong with it. > > -------------------------- James: Actually the Second Noble Truth concerns craving, not exactly desire but close to it. There are such things as wholesome desire and unwholesome desire. I am referring to wholesome desire: the desire to be liberated from clinging/craving through the systematic cultivation of metta and insight. > J: > The Buddha described how to do it, the Vism. describes how to do > it, and now Sarah and Jon are saying that any effort to cultivate > metta is clinging. > -------------------------- > > I take it you are using poetic license. As we both well know, neither > Sarah nor Jon has ever suggested right effort involved clinging. > > --------------------------- James: I mentioned nothing about Right Effort. I have a hard time following your thought processes. Please explain further how you come to the conclusions you reach. > J: > Again, they might be incredibly nice people, but they are > misrepresenting the Buddha. > --------------------------- > > If they are misrepresenting the Buddha they would love you to point > that out for them. But you are judging them by what you and your > personal teachers believe. As you have explained many times, you > believe large sections of the ancient texts should be discreted and > discarded. > > ---------------------------------- James: ;-)) First, my personal teachers have very little to do with my so called 'beliefs' in this regard. They were Thai monks and did not question the validity of any texts, as far as I know. My questioning of texts comes from myself and myself alone. Additionally, I have no idea what this has to do with the subject currently being discussed. Again, I cannot follow your train of thought so I don't know how to respond. If you are trying to act out 'mud slinging' it won't work because I will wear the mud you sling quite contently! ;-) > J: > And, Herman, I don't know why you are being so hard on yourself. > ----------------------------------- > > Herman wasn't being hard on himself. He specifically said his > apologies were not "morose." > > --------------------------------- > J: > Your posts of the past, while sometimes sarcastic, were at least > truthful. > ----------------------------------- > > They are still truthful. > > --------------------------------- > H: > I would prefer a grimace with the truth rather than smiles with > lies anyday. > ---------------------------------- > > Yuk, I won't rise to that bait. I am sure you will apologise for it > one day. :-) James: What bait? I am not baiting you Ken. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, if you understand that metaphor. I was simply stating that Sarah and Jon are very nice people but they misrepresent what the Buddha taught. Why my stating this is considered 'bait' I have no idea because I have been stating the same thing, ad nauseum, even since joining this group! And I will keep stating the same thing, periodically, until they stop misrepresenting the Buddha- or until I get kicked out of this group or that one or all of us dies. That isn't baiting anyone, Ken. Just consider it a periodic blimb on you parimattha dhamma radar. ;-) > > Ken H Metta, James 48529 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I met Rob K, his son Alex and his girlfriend Junko today in > Tokyo. =========== Dear Phil, Nice to see you again. One of the topics was how considering the teachings is an aspect of bhavana. When there is wise consideration (piccharana in Thai) there are other cetasikas including effort and right concentration and equanimity that are also present. As Nina has explained these are being accumulated and so confidence in the teachings grows stronger. robertk 48530 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 6:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 467) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 2. ogha dhamma or flood There are 4 ogha dhamma. They are 1. kaamogha ( kaama-Ogha ) or flood of sensuous-desire 2. bhavogha ( bhava-ogha ) or flood of existence-desire 3. ditthogha( ditthi-ogha) or flood of wrong-view 4. avijjogha( avijja-ogha) or flood of ignorance These 4 oghas or 4 floods can be overcome by 4 different stages of enlightenment or 4 different path-knowledge. Ditthogha is overcome by sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering path-knowledge and this ogha or flood settles down and it never arises again as flood in these stream-enterers. Sakadaagaami magga naana or once-returning path-knowledge lowers down the high of wave of the flood of sensuous-desire. As soon as sakadagami magga citta arise this flood cannot much completely sink beings who have attained sakadagami magga naana. The third path-knowledge or anaagaami magga naana overcome the flood of sensuous-desire or kamogha. Anaagaami magga naana or non-returning path-knowledge resists and overcome the flood and so kaamogha can no more lead to arising of akusala dhamma that would lead to unhappy destination, lower destination. Because of arising of this path-knowledge the beings in question are destined to be reborn in 5 pure abodes or suddhaavasa bhuumis. These are the places for ariya brahmas and no other beings can be reborn here at any of these 5 pure abode however high jhaana they may attain. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be helpful for all. 48531 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 6:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 468) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 2. ogha dhamma or flood There are 4 ogha dhamma. They are 1. kaamogha ( kaama-Ogha ) or flood of sensuous-desire 2. bhavogha ( bhava-ogha ) or flood of existence-desire 3. ditthogha( ditthi-ogha) or flood of wrong-view 4. avijjogha( avijja-ogha) or flood of ignorance Sotapatti magga naana or 'stream-entering path-knowledge' overcome ditthogha or 'the flood of wrong view'. Sakadagami magga naana or 'once-returning path-knowledge' lowers down the high of the wave of the flood of sensuous-desire or kaamogha while anaagaami magga naana or 'non-returning path-knowledge' completely overcome the flood of sensuous-desire. Because of this power to overcome this flood (kaamogha) , non- returner never return back to sensuous planes, where sensuous desire constantly sinks beings in those sensuous realms down to lower destinations. Instead these anaagams are reborn in their next life as brahma in suddhavaasa bhuumi or 5 pure abodes. Suddha means 'pure' 'clean' and aavaasa means 'abode' 'shelter' 'shade'. Suddhaavaasa bhuumis are where anaagams are reborn and from there they become arahats and at the end of their lifespan they all enter nibbana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48532 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 9:02am Subject: Maggangas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. Magganaga = magga + anga Magga = path, anga = limb, part ; magganga = limb of path, path-factor These dhamma are dhamma that help reaching other side with a bridge called path and because of this path one accomplishes things. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration This is ekaggata cetasika as ultimate dhamma. As ekaggata arises with each and every citta, not every ekaggata is path-factor. Examples are there are ekaggata cetasika or one-pointedness in 10 panca-vinnana cittas. These 10 panca-vinnaana cittas are 2 eye-consciousness, 2 ear- consciousness, 2 nose-consciousness, 2 tongue-consciousness, and 2 body-consciousness. They do have ekaggata cetasika or one- pointedness. But this ekaggata is not magganga or path-factor. Samma-samadhi arises in many kusala dhamma as path-factor. Because of this the destination is reached through the path of concentration. It also arises in both rupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana. When it arises in magga cittas it is called lokuttara samma-samadhi. There are samma-samadhi. Samma-samadhi is ekaggata cetasika when it arises with cittas or mental states when there are no hindrances at all and there are many different mental states that samma-samadhi arise. They are 1. 1st rupa jhaana 2. 2nd rupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 1st aruupa jhaana (akasanancayatana) 6. 2nd arupa jhaana (vinnaanancayatana) 7. 3rd aruupa jhaana (akincinnaayatana) 8. 4th aruupa jhaana (nevasannanasannaayatana) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 48533 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 9:06am Subject: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 211 - 216. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - This week we study paragraphs 211 - 216 to the end of the first ground (vatthu) of the Anapanasati bhavana. The next post will repeat the same format for "breathing in & out short" (with respect to analysis of the object of contemplation, the foundation of mindfulness, exercise of mindfulness and awareness, and combining the faculties, etc.). 211. He understands its domain: ...[etc. as in para 205 up to the end]. 212. 'He combines(samodhaaneti) [other] ideas'(dhamma): how does he combine [other] ideas? He combines the faculties through their meaning of dominance(aadhipateyya). He combines the powers through their meaning of unshakability(akampiya). He combines the enlightenment factors through their meaning of outlet(niyyaana). He combines the path through its meaning of cause(hetu). He combines the foundations (establishments) of mindfulness through their meaning of establishment(foundation). He combines the right endeavours through their meaning of exertion. He combines the basis for success (roads to power, iddhipaada) through their meaning of succeeding (ijjhana). He combines the actualities(sacca) through their meaning of suchness(tathataa) (reality). 213. He combines serenity through its meaning of non-distraction. He combines insight through its meaning of contemplation. He combines serenity and insight through their meaning of single function(taste). He combines coupling(yuganandha) through its meaning of non-excess (anativattana). 214. He combines purification of virtue through its meaning of restraint. He combines purification of cognizance through its meaning of non- distraction. He combines purification of view through its meaning of seeing(dassana). He combines liberation(vimokkha) through its meaning of deliverance(vimutti). He combines recognition(vijjaa) through its meaning of penetration(pativedha). He combines deliverance through its meaning of giving up(caaga). He combines knowledge of exhaustion() through the sense of cutting off (samuccheda). He combines knowledge of non-arising anuppaadenaana) in its meaning of tranquillization. 215. Zeal he combines through its meaning of root(muula). Attention (manasikaara) he combines through its meaning of originating (samutthaana). Contact(phassa) he combines through its meaning of combining. Feeling he combines through its meaning of meeting(). Concentration he combines through its meaning of its being foremost(). Mindfulness he combines through its meaning of dominance. Understanding he combines through its meaning of being highest of all. Deliverance he combines through its meaning of core(saara). Nibbana, which merges in the deathless, he combines through its meaning of ending(pariyosaana). This person combines these ideas (dhamma) on this object. Hence 'He combines [other] ideas' is said. 216. 'He understands their domain: ...[etc., as in para 205 up to the end]. Best wishes, Tep ======== 48534 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita - Thank you for the "mind definition" : it is a momentary combination (joint occurrence) of 5 cetasikas {contact (phassa), feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), intention (cetana), and attention (manasikara)}. Then you added: > > So: Yes Mind is the forerunner of all states... > Yet more precisely within this compound mind: > Intention is the 'initiator' & 'creator' of of all states. > The active part so to speak. Thats why I rendered it so. > I have two questions to ask you to kindly answer: 1. Am I correct to say that, according to the above definition, citta or consciousness is not the same as mind or mano? 2. In order that mindfulness may arise, is it absolutely necessary that the meditator must have intention (cetana) that 'I will not be forgetful' ? Or, in other words, do you say that sati can only be trained through intention? Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear friend sarah abbott who wrote: > > >S: Mind (mano) is a synonym for citta (consciousness). We read in the > >texts such as the Atthasalini about how it's the forerunner of all states. > >By 5 things, are you referring to the 5 khandhas? > > Mind is defined as momentary: > Contact (phassa) > Feeling (vedana) > Perception (sanna) > Intention (cetana) > Attention (manasikara) > > Which of these precedes ? (hen or egg question!) > > Yet: > From contact arises in parallel feeling and perception simultaneously. From these, is an intention formed (towards or away from object). From this intention, is attention directed to one of the sense doors. This attention thereby 'inputs' the next event of sense contact. etc. > > So it is intention, that 'creates' and 'selects' the phenomena, > attention then 'fishes out' of reality by sense contacting... (snipped) > : - ] 48535 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 3:28pm Subject: Botanical Gardens - A question egberdina Hi all, This will be my last post in the series. There will be many points of discussion that I won't have addressed, but hey, we gotta live in the present, right? :-) I was slightly pleased that I was able to ask Jon a question to which he didn't have an answer. It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known as the previous nama was knowing? Kind Regards Herman 48536 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/6/05 6:29:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes of something Jon had no answer for: It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known as the previous nama was knowing? ========================= That's easy, Herman. (I'm surprised Jon didn't know!) The cittas and cetasikas call a meeting where they compare notes. They go by majority rule, except the cittas get 2 votes, and the cetasikas only 1, as the cittas are the leaders! ;-)) With manic metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48537 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' egberdina Hi Justin, Nice to be reading your posts. I thought Jon's reply was very to the point. My reply will be a bit more worldly. The question for me is : why are people in developing countries susceptible to Christian missionaries? And why is the West walking away from Christianity in droves? I suspect that the answer lies in how much food is in your stomach. A hungry person is less concerned about their next birth, more concerned about where their next meal is coming from. The promise of Christianity for a poor, hungry person is food on the table!!!, not Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour who died on the cross for my sins. On the other hand, the West needs to constantly destroy food so as to maintain stable price levels. Being as sated as we are, it is easy to see through the basis of organised Christianity as sheer bullshit. A point to consider. Why is it that a Buddhist-dominated country like Sri Lanka is in the top five countries in the world for suicide rates, and has THE HIGHEST suicide rate in the world for women? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" wrote: > Hi Evan, > > Great post! Also, the christins sneak into the countries that don't > allow them. It is hard to go to Laos to teach English because they > have had so much experience of missionaries posing as English > teachers. Of course, if the missionaries succeed, they will > destabalize the governenment destroy the native cultres, and the > Buddhist fabric of society. > > What you say is true. Everything will end. One day all of the > religions we know will be gone.. and one day the sun will turn into a > red giant and earth will be disintegrated. That said, it is still > necessary to raise this issue and to do something about it where > possible. > > If I could ever get a committed group to go to one of the poor > Buddhist villages in the countryside that the missionaries are > targeting, it would be great to go and give the people real aid, with > no strings attached, while reminding and showing them the truth of > Dhamma without any enticements to give up the religion that there > ancestors have been a part of for hundreds of years. > > With metta also...cheers > > Justin > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" > wrote: > > Hi Justin. > > > > I think the following : > > > > 1. Haleluleahhhh brother. You have hit the nail on the head. And > one of > > the more insidious ways that xtians get into coutries is > through "aid" > > agencies which come in to distribute necessities in poor countries > and > > of course spread their brand of religion. A bit like wolves in > sheeps' > > clothing. > > > > 2. While xtians concentrate on spreading their brand of religion > > elsewhere, the rise of Buddhism is happening back in the western > world. > > > > 3. All conditioned things are impermanent. Buddhism will eventually > die, > > and so will xtianity and hinduism and all the other isms in the > world. > > It's called samsara. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Evan 48538 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question egberdina Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 8/6/05 6:29:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes of something Jon had no answer for: > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > as the previous nama was knowing? > ========================= > That's easy, Herman. (I'm surprised Jon didn't know!) The cittas and > cetasikas call a meeting where they compare notes. They go by majority rule, > except the cittas get 2 votes, and the cetasikas only 1, as the cittas are the > leaders! ;-)) > == Oh , you are wicked :-) Kind Regards Herman > With manic metta, > Howard > 48539 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 2:06am Subject: What is Clinging ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the Four Kinds of Clinging (Upadana) ? The four kinds of Clinging are: 1: Clinging to sense pleasures, 2: Clinging to views, 3: Clinging to mere rules and ritual, 4: Clinging to the concept of self. 1: What is clinging to sense pleasures? Whatever, regarding perceptible objects, there is of lust for pleasures, desire for sensing, greed for sense pleasures, delight in sense pleasures, craving for sense pleasures, burning fever for sense pleasures, infatuation with sense pleasures, committal to sense pleasures, adherence to sense pleasures, attachment to sense pleasures, addiction to sense pleasures, obsession to sense pleasures; all this is called the clinging to sense pleasures... 2: What is clinging to views? The view that: 'Alms, giving & offerings are useless'; and the view that: 'There is neither fruit nor result of neither good nor bad behaviour...!' All such wrong views & mad opinions are called the clinging to views... 3: What is clinging to mere rules and ritual? Attaching & clutching to the view that through mere rules and ritual, and weird superstitious traditions, one may reach complete mental purification... All this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual... 4: What is clinging to the 'personality' concept of a self? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the 5 clusters of clinging: 'My self is form, or have a form, or is inside a form, or form is inside my self' 'My self is feeling, ... or perception, ... or construction, ... or consciousness' 'have consciousness, is inside consciousness, or consciousness is inside a self'. All such stable core ego-assuming is called the clinging to the concept of self... Clinging is an intensified result of craving, which is caused by craving. Craving is wanting and urging for an object not yet reached, but hunted. Clinging is the firm grasping and clutching to an object already in hand. Clinging promote possessiveness, hostile defensiveness and evil behaviour in the attempt to guard the object! Pain emerges, when whatever object inevitably is lost due to the impermanence of the always ongoing change. Future becoming with side-effects of decay is caused by prior clinging... _______________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 48540 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: I lige Maade ... dacostacharles To day the Vikings are Christians ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 06 August, 2005 10:30 Subject: [dsg] Re: I lige Maade ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Charles DaCosta wrote: > > >Tak > > Selvtak! > : - ] Never mind the Christians, the Vikings are coming !!!! :-) Herman 48541 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 5:41pm Subject: e-card from north of coff's Harbour on the NS Wales coast... sarahprocter... Dear All, A few words from the reception computer, overlooking the big surf of the N.S.Wales Pacific coast after a cool morning walk along the beach, only dolphins catching the waves here.....breakfast with my soya milk on a verandah....and the drive up with wanderings off the highway into remote bush, rivers with pelicans, cormorants and other birds...a little two car ferry across one river and swims where we can....no wonder it takes us time. As Jon said, on the highway at some point we saw the 'mp3' above the car radio.....a stop to rummage in a bag for the edited recordings..... K.Sujin was saying at one point (India 01) how there's bound to be fear of 'no self', 'no friend', 'no family' if there hasn't been enough understanding developed....'are we ready to give them up?'. Nina asked about the good cheer in this and K.Sujin said in effect that it's in the understanding..... Another comment....she was talking about how just as citta can experience any dhamma, any reality....so can pa~n~naa....no limit, any object which appears. I think this appreciation, however basic, brings good cheer and courage to persevere, to see that dhammas can be directly experienced and known at this present moment. My computer card timer is on and the waves are also beckoning (yes, Herman, lots more lobha:)....but a few words: Herman - super accounts....(to all, his notes consisted of 'crossed-fingers' and a couple of illegible jottings, so this shows how keenly he was attending) James- we said a couple of times how we'd like to meet you too....thanks for your interest and feedback. Howard - very nice pic in the album.....Any more from others, esp. newbies?? Htoo - looking f/w to your further elaboration...DT462, you seem to suggest 4 ultimate realities consist of 72 dhammas only here. (actually, I won't be able to print out and read the other DT til I return home). Phil - good to see you out of hibernation too....yes, please, any comments that come to mind or impressions from recordings....NO NEED TO REPLY. On an earlier post of yours, mana, conceit doesn't even need to be when comparing....whenever there's the idea of our importance or the flag-waving...it's really very sneaky. Avidu - I didn't reply to yr message #47616....Your qus -1.Don't try to notice ALL cittas and cetasikas. Impossible. Any citta or cetasika appearing, does not mean ALL should be known!! 2. Thoughts - usually what we refer to are concepts or stories thought about. See 'Thinking and thoughts' for more in 'Useful posts' int he files. Pls ask further questions and others will respond before I can. Justin - welcome to DSG! How long have you lived in Bangkok and are you teaching English? Perhaps we'll see you.....pls let Sukin know if you need details of our discussions at the Foundation. On the Missionaries....Aren't we all misguided most the time? Isn't it more useful to understand our annoyances and anger when others speak or act in ways we don't like or approve of? What is the dhamma really for, if it's not for knowing our own mental states at such times? Charlie P - welcome too....I only have a couple of mins before my time runs out here....like Nina, I would have liked a few more words of the quote after 'cessation'....Also, please look under 'Effort - right' in 'Useful Posts' and also 'Mahacattarisaka sutta' there as well. Let us know how you go. Where do you live....looking forward to more. You may find the Chinese translation of Bodhi's Ab. Sangaha useful. When I get back to Hong Kong, let me know if you'd like details. Antony - thanks so much for filling in all the gaps so well. I'll look f/w to respond more fully later, maybe when I get home. thx also for the fuller Munindra story...maybe that's where I learned to bargain....have been bargaining my way round Australia on accomodation, shoe purchases, pensioner ferry rides and so on:). and Herman, don't believe all you hear about Jon's retirement....he's been working on papers from remote beaches already:) Have to quickly sign off, no chance of a check or others I'd hoped to mention... Keep up the great posts, all metta Sarah 48542 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Vism.XIV,179 Vism.XIV,180 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 179. III. As regards the 'indeterminate', firstly, the 'resultant indeterminate' (34)-(69) are twofold, classed as those without root-cause and those with root-cause. Those associated with resultant consciousness without root-cause (34)-(41), (50)-(56) are those without root-cause. Herein, firstly, those associated with the profitable resultant (34) and unprofitable resultant (50) eye-consciousness are the four given in the texts as such, namely: contact (i), volition (ii), life (vii), steadiness of consciousness (xlix), which amount to five with attention (xxx) as the only or-whatever-state. These same kinds are associated with ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness (35)-(38), (51)-(54). 180. Those associated with both kinds of resultant mind-element (39), (55) come to eight by adding applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv) and resolution (xxix). Likewise those associated with the threefold mind-consciousness-element with root-cause (40), (41), (56). But here (40) that accompanied by joy should be understood to have happiness (v) also in addition to that. 48543 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) philofillet Hi Jon, Rob K and all > Good to hear from you again. You were fortunate to meet RobK for > discussion. Yes, and he'll be back in October. I haven't written in detail about our talk this time because I want to avoid long posts for awhile but it was very fruitful. He made a good case for me making a trip to Bangkok to meet A. Sujin and Ivan and Sukin and others. I had never really considered it before but he just about had me pulling out my credit card. Phil > > I feel so confident that we have to have a solid grounding of > > intellectual understanding - which involves *believing* the aspects > > of the Buddha's teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna > > to understand. This *must* come first. We must believe the Buddha's > > teaching and accept that the aspects that don't make sense yet are > > due to the huge shortcomings in our understanding rather than > > deficiencies in the Dhamma. > > Jon: I'm not sure about having to 'believe' the aspects of the Buddha's > teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna to understand, but it > definitely helps if we are happy to take those aspects as a working > hypothesis (to borrow Mike N's way of putting it). Ph: As you know, in one of the recorded talks there is a fellow (don'T know who he is, but I like his good humour) who when A. Sujin says "it is difficult to believe that everything is paramattha dhammas" says "I don't think it's difficult to believe but it seems impossible to experience." Then A. Sujin says, and I paraphrase, that is good, that the believing shows that a condition is there for the development of panna. You know, the one thing I've come to understand (I think) is the depth and prevalence of ignorance. It is spinning off every moment of seeing, of hearing, and so on. There is so much ignorance, we are so far from the goal. So having seen that, what do we do? Bear down and try harder, try to speed up, dig deeper, be much more wholesome? That is a natural response but I think it takes people down the wrong path. Instead, there is this appreciation of small moments of understanding, even shallow understanding, of namas and rupas. There is this sense, an intuition, that we are getting rooted in a right understanding that will help us in a way that lobha-rooted practices never could. But there is also this understanding of how much ignorance there is, a right understanding of the enormous limitations of our panna. So there can be belief, rooted in a kind of awe at the depth of the Buddha's wisdom, as well as appreciation for those kind of moments of bright understanding we've all had. I posted about one last year when I suddenly "got it" about paramattha dhammas when looking up from a book at Naomi. One or two of those moments that stick with us are enough to justify our belief, I think, and defend it against being slagged as "blind faith." We know the benefits we have experienced from the carry over of these moments of bright understanding. So we can believe the Buddha's teaching, most of which is far beyond us at this point. And I say we *must* believe it as a necessary condition to progress on the path. Ah, my first babble in weeks. I am weaning myself off the internet in other areas, gradually, so perhaps I will find myself with more time for DSG. My beloved baseball team is in danger of falling out of contention for the championship. If that happens, I'll have so much more time. All these addictions. I suspect you wouldn't know what it's like to have addictions, Jon. We all have different accumulated tendencies. It's interesting. Hi Rob - yes, nice seeing you as well. Hope you had a good flight. I do really appreciate the bhavana aspect of having talks with you. Metta, Phi 48544 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet) egberdina Hi Phil and all, I feel very sneaky, about to launch a full-frontal attack when you're not even here to defend yourself. Just kidding, of course, and I hope that others will comment if they are inclined. > > Here's one - Acharn Sujin said "First everything is dhamma, at > the level of intellectual understanding, then moments of awareness > of namas and rupas, until the moment that everything is dhamma at > the level of" some advanced stage of insight - I forget the word. > > I feel so confident that we have to have a solid grounding of > intellectual understanding - which involves *believing* the aspects > of the Buddha's teaching that we haven't yet accumulated the panna > to understand. This *must* come first. We must believe the Buddha's > teaching and accept that the aspects that don't make sense yet are > due to the huge shortcomings in our understanding rather than > deficiencies in the Dhamma. We do not have anywhere near the degree > of insight of the Buddha or noble ariyans so we should be humble and > patient and understand to the degree that understanding arises due > to conditions, rather than trying and trying and trying to > understand to the degree that we *want* to. I do not seek to dissuade you from your confidence in believing you need a solid intellectual understanding before anything else. You may find it useful to reflect on other ways of looking at it. I think the three part scheme of theory first, then practise, then realisation, originates many hundreds of years after the suttas were originally delivered. You can check that for yourself, if you want. In the Suttas, the Buddha teaches Dhamma-Vinaya. It is the teachings and the discipline. There is no suggestion that you must first gorge yourself on teachings, before one can embark on discipline. To the contrary, each and every teaching involves a discipline for that moment. To the householder of one inclination he verbally instructs one discipline fitting for that moment, to a householder of another understanding he verbally instructs another discipline fitting for that moment, and to an ariyan of consumate perfection he verbally instructs yet another discipline fitting for that moment. There is no sense that the householder must ingest all the teachings first. Tep and I discussed hearing the teachings in terms of filling up cars with petrol. Another way of looking at it is as eating, with a view to nourishing the body. Eating is not nourishing. Digestion is. Without digestion, eating is a fruitless activity. The teachings are of benefit when they become your own. No need to finish a ten-course meal before the first entree is allowed to be digested. In fact, there is every chance that if the entrees are not being digested as they are being eaten, the main course, let alone the desert, will exit through the same hole they entered the body. There is also no sense that once having heard the specific teaching, the hearer intentionally proceeds to implement what was understood. The rightly understood teaching is its own prompting. You mentioned faith. Very important indeed. It is faith that makes one susceptible to the teaching. But more importantly, indiscriminate faith makes one susceptible to ANY teaching. Over time, an unquestioning child who is open to anything and everything, learns that things aren't always quite how authority figures portray them. And a baby will spew out what it cannot digest, unprompted. Never mind. It is all learning. And learning is taking in, digesting, and spewing out (one end or the other :-)) what doesn't sit right, and effortlessly making one own what is nourishing. This has turned into a ramble. Never mind :-) Kind Regards Herman 48545 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Akusala patience philofillet Hello all Interesting in a talk when A. Sujin asked "what cetasika is patience?" soon after saying that there can be akusala patience, which I hadn't considered before. (Actually, I think I had heard this talk before but had forgotten.) Patience, I learned, is virya, (the virya of right or wrong effort/energy) and can be kusala or akusala for reasons that are clear enough, come to think of it. The patience of putting up with a long journey or hot weather like we are having now, this thinking about what a patient person I am. The patience of the yogi(?) who walks across hot coals. Nothing kusala there. So there is a false patience that is akusala. Similar to false metta which is actually just pleasant feeling rooted in lobha. There is real metta, of course - rarer than we think. And now I see that kusala patience is rarer than I think as well. Kusala is rarer than we think. Fortunately being aware of akusala can be kusala, so understanding the prevalence of akusala is not cause for despair - it provides an opportunity for understanding, and understanding is the only way out. Metta, Phil 48546 From: connie Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,179 Vism.XIV,180 nichiconn see 48542 for "Path of Purification" "Path of Purity" Of the indeterminate, the resultant indeterminate mental activities are of two kinds as unconditioned and conditioned. Of them, those that are associated with the unconditioned resultant consciousnesses are unconditioned. Of these, there are five which are associated with moral and immoral resultant eye-consciousness, to wit: four appearing in their true nature as: - Contact Life Volition Conscious Duration and the "or-whatever" state, attention. And the same five are those that are associated with ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-consciousness. And eight are those that are [associated] with the double (i.e., moral, immoral) resultant mind-element, namely, the same five, applied thought, sustained thought, and decision. And the same eight are those that are associated with the threefold unconditioned mind-consciousness-element. Here in these three kinds, zest is excessive together with that [examining conciousness] which is accompanied by joy and which is present there. Thus it should be understood. 48547 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Aug 6, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 dacostacharles Hi Nina, Do you see rebirth-consciousness as the basis for the life-continuum? Or is life-continuum not a term you use? I think there are lots of Hindus who would disagree with the statement: "...only the Buddha could go to past lives to an extent nobody else ever could." Especially since it was not of major importance to the Buddha. Though it is true that every thing, arises due to causes and gives rise to effects. When I stated "stuff just happens" I was alluding to the Buddha's point about not all things should be seen as reward or punishment (the old view of "due to Karma"). AND good last paragraph, worth repeating: "Right understanding helps most, also for our social life. We understand that people who misbehave do so because they have been conditioned that way. Our reactions can be with more metta and karuna when we have understanding of our own cittas and of others' cittas." CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 31 July, 2005 21:07 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 173 > Nina, when you stated, "I avoid the word incarnation or reincarnation. Seems > to suggest one person traveling from life to life. And also: there are lives > as ghosts or lives in heavenly planes. No womb." > > I am lead to believe that you believe in the life-continuum (some define it as > a thread of beings linked by karma as their cause; for example, the line of > Dhali Lamas; some also explain it as the rebirth-consciousness of one being > becoming that of another being). ---- N: the last one. The dying-consciousness falls away and it is succeeded without interval by the rebirth-consciousness. Then there is another being but there is connection with the past, since all accumulations of the past, all experiences and kammas are accumulated and carried on to the present. The newborn being is neither the same nor another. -- > ------------------------- > > I was also taught that "insight into past lives" is a level that could be > obtained by almost any high level monk, or practitioner, that works at > developing it. So this could be why we differ here "?" > -------------------- N: By the development of jhanas and supranatural powers (diving into the earth etc.) one can also learn to see the passing away and rebirth of other beings. But only the Buddha could go to past lives to an extent nobody else ever could. ------ Ch: I have to express that Luck and good fortune (the pleasant worldly conditions) > are not always the results of one's kamma (unless you consider birth as the > cause). Even the Buddha said stuff just happens (this is one of the corner > stone beliefs that separated him from the Hindus). > ----------- N: Nothing happens without the appropriate conditions, but we mostly are ignorant of these. The Buddha perfectly knew all conditions. Results of kamma: rebirth-consciousness, experiences through the senses such as seeing or hearing. What we denote by gain and praise are events, but when we are more precise these consist of pleasant sense impressions. ------ Ch: I think you are beginning to see my approach (i.e., your last two paragraphs). > I am after a very practical Dharma; one that helps me here and now, in this > life time. One that teaches me how to live in samsara. ----- N: I think that is the right purpose. Right understanding helps most, also for our social life. We understand that people who misbehave do so because they have been conditioned that way. Our reactions can be with more metta and karuna when we have understanding of our own cittas and of others' cittas. Nina. 48548 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 0:07am Subject: Selfless Friendship is Sweetest ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Without assuming an 'Ego', Friendship is Infinite: Selfless friendship is the most deep, genuine, sincere & sweet! Why so? It is not limited nor tainted by any egoistic self-interest, which otherwise interferes, as soon as an assumed 'self' suspects even minor overstepping of it's perceived territorial 'my' domain... The mental construction of friendship is a quite selfless goodwill! The friendship producing matter-&-mind complex is also selfless! The matter-&-mind complex receiving friendship is also selfless! Similarly selfless is the infinity of pity, mutual joy & equanimity! Any ego-conceiving, self-conception, personality-belief, & I-dentity is a painful thorn to the progress of all advantageous mental states! The Blessed Buddha said: By following this method too, Ananda it may be understood how the entire Holy & Noble Life is sole good friendship, good companionship, and good comradeship: By relying upon me as a good friend, Ananda, beings subject to birth are freed from birth, beings subject to ageing are freed from ageing, beings subject to disease are freed from illness, beings subject to death are freed from death, beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, discontent, & desperate despair are freed from grief, weeping, crying, pain, frustration & all misery. Therefore, Ananda it may be emphasized, how this entire Noble Life is all based on good friendship, good amity, and good harmony... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 3(18): [I 88] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48549 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 0:01am Subject: Change ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Someone: >To day the Vikings are Christians Today some Vikings are Buddhists! : - ] 48550 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Tep Sastri wrote: >I have two questions to ask you to kindly answer: >1. Am I correct to say that, according to the above definition, citta or consciousness is not the same as mind or mano? >2. In order that mindfulness may arise, is it absolutely necessary that the meditator must have intention (cetana) that 'I will not be forgetful' ? Or, in other words, do you say that sati can only be trained through intention? _Reg. Question 1:_ Consciousness is IMHO inherent in mind basically as attention etc., just like space is inherent in any 3-dimensional thing that occupy gives & fills that space with characteristics. Consciousness itself is void of other characteristics, than that of naked awareness, but it accommodate & display whatever quality! _Reg. Question 2: _The way to establishing awareness (sati) is training clear comprehension by 'Noting, Noting' as Ven. Mahasi effectively puts it... Such sustained effort naturally requires prior intention. Regarding the enhancing of Clear Comprehension. Please enjoy: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel370.html Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 48551 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:21am Subject: Learning the Wording of the Doctrine - (Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet)) christine_fo... Hello Herman, Phil, and all, Needless to say we differ a great deal on this topic :-) The sutta references and comments below were saved from posts - apologies if anyone hasn't been acknowledged. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- The Case for Study - Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay05.html And a few more references from the Tipitaka: In the progress of the disciple, there are three stages that may be distinguished: theory, practice and realization i.e. (1) learning the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it (patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal. (Nyanatiloka Maha Thera) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Scholars and Meditators AN VI.46 'Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the monks thus: "Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma and they disparage those monks who are meditators, saying: "Look at those monks! They thing, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate to and mediate from meditate up and meditate down! What, then, do they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks who are keen on Dhamma, saying: 'Look at those monks! They thing "We are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma- experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will practise also those monks who are meditators.' Any why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana). 'And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult subject." ---------------------------------- Comments from members: On first reading it, we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. It should also be noted how useless bickering and disparaging of others are. How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level.When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'. If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary notes, I think. The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of 'meditators'refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute. From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators'have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars)"penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana). Obviously there is no suggestion that this is merely an intellectual approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment should be highly respected. ========================== Irrespective of whether one believes in a particular set practice, or not, - the great importance of pariyatti, study, has been emphasised by the Blessed One. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta...a/sn20-007.html --------- As you will see, the word "dhamma" in these passages seems to refer to a very carefully crafted curriculum of teachings, and that there was a great concern that this body of material be accurately and precisely communicated from teacher to student. The realization in personal experience and the integrity of intention also seem to be areas of particular concern in the ancient context, as they are today. Teaching the Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:159 It is not easy to teach dhamma to others. Concerning the teaching of dhamma to others, only after five things have been internally established is dhamma to be taught to others. What five? 1. "I shall speak a graduated discourse…" 2. "I shall speak a discourse that is insightfully-arranged…" 3. "I shall speak a discourse grounded upon caring…" 4. "I shall speak a discourse without motivation for personal gain…" 5. "I shall speak a discourse without disparaging myself or others…" …thus is dhamma to be taught to others. Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not carefully hear the dhamma, 2. do not carefully learn the dhamma, 3. do not carefully retain the dhamma, 4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained dhamma, and 5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma according to dhamma. Anguttara Nikaya 5:155 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains, verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions; 2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it. Anguttara Nikaya 5:156 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? 1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, mis- arranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of the mis-arranged words and letters. 2. When monks mis-speak, do things that constitute mis-behavior, are endowed with a lack of patience/forbearance, and possess little talent for grasping the teaching. 3. When the monks who have learned much, who have received what has been passed down, who have retained the dhamma, the vinaya and the manuals, —they do not make others carefully speak the discourses; and because of their lapse the discourses become something with its roots severed, without a refuge. 4. When the senior monks live in luxury, take the lead in falling into laxity, lay aside the responsibility of dwelling in seclusion, and no longer put forth effort: to attain what has not yet been attained, to achieve what has not yet been achieved, to experience what has not yet been experienced. 5. When the community is divided. When the community is divided, then there is shouting at one another, there is blaming one another, there is closing in on one another, there is giving up on one another. Those who are not clear do not get clear there, and the few who are clear become otherwise. Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, § 2, ³On hearing Dhamma²): Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What five? He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these are the five advantages from hearing Dhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > I do not seek to dissuade you from your confidence in believing you > need a solid intellectual understanding before anything else. > > You may find it useful to reflect on other ways of looking at it. > > I think the three part scheme of theory first, then practise, then > realisation, originates many hundreds of years after the suttas were > originally delivered. You can check that for yourself, if you want. > 48552 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 8/6/05 6:29:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@... writes of something Jon had no answer for: > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > as the previous nama was knowing? > ========================= > That's easy, Herman. (I'm surprised Jon didn't know!) The cittas and > cetasikas call a meeting where they compare notes. They go by majority > rule, > except the cittas get 2 votes, and the cetasikas only 1, as the cittas > are the leaders! ;-)) > > With manic metta, > Howard Of course! Now why didn't I think of that at the time (must have been overwhelmed by the occasion ;-)). Jon 48553 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:47am Subject: Metta (was Re: Botanical Gardens - Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken H., .... Hallo James You made some remarks to Ken H (not the 'really' Ken of course but the 'Ken' in your mind, as we all do). I should like to agree with you, but Im not sure I do understand you. So some questions: James: I have already pointed out where they deviate from the ancient Theravad texts: in the teachings of the Buddha on the cultivation of metta and the Vism. that describes the technique leading to the cultivation of metta. Joop: does the Vism. belong to the 'ancient Theravada texts' or to the 'modern' ? (I prefer to make the classification Tipitaka vs explanatory/commentarial of all ages; and within the latter old ones (till the Abh. Sangaha) vs modern ones; and within the latter orthodox vs freethinker but buddhist ones) James: …. I was simply stating that Sarah and Jon are very nice people but they misrepresent what the Buddha taught. Joop: We will not talk to much about S and J, that can strenghten their ego. But in what aspect do they misrepresent what the Buddha taught? Do you mean the Buddha is saying we can only cling to the five aggregates; and do you concluse from that we cannot cling to metta because metta is not one of this five ? I think we can cling to the feeling happy when doing metta- contemplation or metta-meditation. Or we can cling to the being to whome we think to 'send' metta. But in both cases it wasn't metta at all but greed. In this way you are right: if we cling to 'something' we think to be metta, then it isn't metta. Metta (doubtful typed) Joop Included, because of my admiration for it, Nyanaponika's contemplation on LOVE (Metta) Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest love. Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this so- called "I" is a mere delusion. Love, without selecting and excluding, knowing well that to do so means to create love's own contrasts: dislike, aversion and hatred. Love, embracing all beings: small and great, far and near, be it on earth, in the water or in the air. Love, embracing impartially all sentient beings, and not only those who are useful, pleasing or amusing to us. Love, embracing all beings, be they noble-minded or low-minded, good or evil. The noble and the good are embraced because Love is flowing to them spontaneously. The low-minded and evil-minded are included because they are those who are most in need of Love. In many of them the seed of goodness may have died merely because warmth was lacking for its growth, because it perished from cold in a loveless world. Love, embracing all beings, knowing well that we all are fellow wayfarers through this round of existence -- that we all are overcome by the same law of suffering. Love, but not the sensuous fire that burns, scorches and tortures, that inflicts more wounds than it cures -- flaring up now, at the next moment being extinguished, leaving behind more coldness and loneliness than was felt before. Rather, Love that lies like a soft but firm hand on the ailing beings, ever unchanged in its sympathy, without wavering, unconcerned with any response it meets. Love that is comforting coolness to those who burn with the fire of suffering and passion; that is life-giving warmth to those abandoned in the cold desert of loneliness, to those who are shivering in the frost of a loveless world; to those whose hearts have become as if empty and dry by the repeated calls for help, by deepest despair. Love, that is a sublime nobility of heart and intellect which knows, understands and is ready to help. Love, that is strength and gives strength: this is the highest Love. Love, which by the Enlightened One was named the liberation of the heart, the most sublime beauty: this is the highest Love. And what is the highest manifestation of Love? To show to the world the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, trodden, and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the Buddha. 48554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) Just butting in ;-)) --- upasaka@... wrote: > No, it's more a matter of how phenomena are sensed. While one may > intellectually realize that one phenomenon arises in dependence on > several others, > yet because that phenomenon is distinguishable from the others (and, > indeed, we > don't confuse hardness with sights, or love with fear), and because of > our > deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making," there is the tendency to > *sense* > it and *think* of it as a separate, self-existent entity with a core of > own-being and that is merely *related* to the others, which also are > separate > self-existent entities. I agree there is a deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making", but I am familiar with this in the context of conceiving of people and things. When one learns about dhammas one also learns about conditionality; both are core aspects of the teachings. The generalisation you make here is not a commonly accepted one, as far as I'm aware. ... > I think we need to be careful about this business of distinguishing > nama from rupa. > As I see it, if it means distinguishing mental from physical in > general, > the distinction is valid, real, and important. It is also, for me, quite > clear > ( or so it seems ;-). Of course, I might well be deluded in how much > clarity I have in that respect. > But I think that it is common for people - I've even seen some > Abhidhammikas fall into this - to conflate 'rupa' with 'arammana', and > to understand > distinguishing nama from rupa, not as a matter of distinguishing mental > from > physical in general, but of subject from object. But distinguishing > subject from > object is what all worldings do, and in its hardened form, it produces > the > sense of an "I" entity grasping an "other" entity, a form of solidified > duality > that, IMO, lies at the root of our un-knowing. But the danger you see here is of that of misunderstanding the distinction between nama and rupa. That surely is something that goes for any aspect of the teachings, not especially as regards the distinction between namas and rupas? Jon 48555 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 2:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness robmoult Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > I am puzzled about the reference to samatha being equated with jhana > (in the commentaries). Would you mind explaining what you mean by > this. Thanks. ===== I will get back to you on this with a specific quote. ===== > > Also, on the subject of realities vs. concepts, I think the question is > whether the Buddha taught in the suttas about insight into dhammas or > insight into dhammas and concepts. I think you are suggesting the > latter. Have I understood you correctly? ===== Not exactly. I am not aware of any Suttas where the Buddha differentiated between what later writers call "realities" and what later writers call "concepts". Certainly, the Buddha split a "being" into five aggregates, but isn't the sankhara aggregate a collection of what later writers call "realities"? In the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn1), the Buddha reviews the perception process of "uninstructed worldlings " (that's us), "learners" (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami), Arahants and a Buddha. The Buddha starts out with the four elements as objects of perception but quickly moves into what later writers term "concepts" such as beings, gods, specific gods, objects of arupa jhanas, etc. The Buddha used the same language when discussing all of these objects. Metta, Rob M :-) 48556 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable, part 1. nilovg Hi, Howard, op 05-08-2005 16:04 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Howard: > No, it's more a matter of how phenomena are sensed. While one may > intellectually realize that one phenomenon arises in dependence on several > others, > yet because that phenomenon is distinguishable from the others (and, indeed, > we > don't confuse hardness with sights, or love with fear), and because of our > deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making," there is the tendency to > *sense* > it and *think* of it as a separate, self-existent entity with a core of > own-being and that is merely *related* to the others, which also are separate > self-existent entities. Our conceptual faculty, overwhelmed by ignorance, > creates > hardened concepts of entities that affect our perception. So one seems to see > a > vast plurality of separate self-existent entities that interact, like billiard > balls, rather than fleeting, interdependent aspects of a vast, dynamic, > experiential net, each nothing in-and-of-itself. > ------------------------------------------ N: as you say. Whatever we think is darkened by ignorance. Also when conceiving experiential net, each nothing in-and-of-itself.> The problem is, that also this conceiving is thinking, we keep on reasoning and thinking. The only way out is kusala citta with sati and direct understanding, but this is a long learning process. I come back to this in my second post. -------- > Howard: > I think we need to be careful about this business of distinguishing nama > from rupa. > As I see it, if it means distinguishing mental from physical in general, > the distinction is valid, real, and important. .. ---------- N: The first stage of tender insight is not distinguishing mental from physical in general. It is very precise, not in a general way, but again, it is a process of learning. Anybody can know: physical phenomena or not mental phenomena, but that is not paññaa that knows directly this naama as naama and that ruupa as ruupa. See how much confusion there is about heat impinging on the bodysense, bodily feeling, mental unpleasant feeling, etc. They are in practice, in real life, all mixed up. We know the theory, but the practice? ----------- H: But I think that it is common for people - I've even seen some > Abhidhammikas fall into this - to conflate 'rupa' with 'arammana', and to > understand > distinguishing nama from rupa, not as a matter of distinguishing mental from > physical in general, but of subject from object. ------- N: I understand your concern, but there need not be any problem if we understand object in the Dhamma sense. This is different from what people are used to thinking about an object experienced by a subject, an I. The Pali Aaramma.na or aalambhana: a foundation, that on which citta depends. There cannot be any citta that does not experience an object. Citta and object do not last, citta and object arise because of conditions. Except nibbana which is unconditioned. This is the object of supramundane citta. No subject, each citta falls away immediately. -------- H: But distinguishing subject from object is what all worldings do, and in its hardened form, it produces the sense of an "I" entity grasping an "other" entity, a form of solidified duality that, IMO, lies at the root of our un-knowing. ------ N: I would say, wrong view, and this goes together with ignorance. The idea of: I experience this or that lasting thing. You say: distinguishing subject from object is what all worldings do. This is all on the level of thinking, and in this case wrong thinking. But, we can learn right thinking and this goes together with paññaa and sati. This is the way to overcome all pitfalls. It is different from what we mean by thinking in conventional language. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear here as to what you mean by one "characteristic" at a time. > I agree there is but one arammana at a time. At a moment that hardness is the > objective content, visual object is not. I certainly believe that. > ----------------------------------------------- N: Yes, and they have different characteristics. Sati of the level of satipatthana can be directly aware of them. There is no need to think about them, these dhammas show each their own characteristic. Lodewijk said that for years he was wondering about characteristics. We discussed this and also sati during our walk. This will be my next post. You render me a service if you indicate what I did not clarify sufficiently. Nina. 48557 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:16am Subject: Learning the Wording of the Doctrine - (Re: Meeting Rob K again (and a snippet)) egberdina Hi Christine, Yes, we do differ a great deal. It hardly matters, though, does it? I'm happy to discuss it further, if you are, or leave it, but the Scholars and Meditators quote you present leaves me feeling a little bit uncomfortable about what you might think my motives in discussing are. I'm not interested in disparaging anyone. You might find the following comparison interesting. You quoted > 1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, mis- > arranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of > the mis-arranged words and letters. I quote "Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe." If the monks directed their effort to attempting to capture an understanding of reality in writing, rather than realising nibbana, they probably misunderstood the discourses they memorised. Tell you what, you give me a reference to any Sutta that mentions pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha and I'll get you a reference to a Sutta that mentions Dhamma-Vinaya :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Herman, Phil, and all, > > Needless to say we differ a great deal on this topic :-) The sutta > references and comments below were saved from posts - apologies if > anyone hasn't been acknowledged. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 48558 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita - Thank you for the interesting reply. > Samahita: > Consciousness is IMHO inherent in mind basically as attention etc >The way to establishing awareness (sati) is training clear >comprehension by 'Noting, Noting' as Ven. Mahasi effectively puts it... I am not yet clear about the relationship between consciousness(citta?) and mind. Concerning sati and sampajanna, I would like to make a note here that such' noting' technique is known elsewhere as "bare attention" . But noone else has yet mentioned the role of intention as you did. Warm regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friend Tep Sastri wrote: > > >I have two questions to ask you to kindly answer: > > >1. Am I correct to say that, according to the above definition, > citta or consciousness is not the same as mind or mano? > > >2. In order that mindfulness may arise, is it absolutely necessary that > the meditator must have intention (cetana) that 'I will not be forgetful' ? > Or, in other words, do you say that sati can only be trained through > intention? > > _Reg. Question 1:_ > Consciousness is IMHO inherent in mind basically as attention etc., > just like space is inherent in any 3-dimensional thing that occupy > gives & fills that space with characteristics. > Consciousness itself is void of other characteristics, than that of > naked awareness, but it accommodate & display whatever quality! > > _Reg. Question 2: > _The way to establishing awareness (sati) is training clear comprehension > by 'Noting, Noting' as Ven. Mahasi effectively puts it... > Such sustained effort naturally requires prior intention. > Regarding the enhancing of Clear Comprehension. Please enjoy: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel370.html > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 48559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding nilovg Hi James, Yes, there are wholesome desire and unwholesome desire. It is confusing that there are so many different translations in different contexts. It is easier to use the Pali term lobha. Chanda, wis-to-do or zeal, also translated as desire can be kusala or akusala. BTW I came across an old post of yours where you said that you study Pali, Arabic and Hebrew. Fascinating. How are you getting on? Reading texts? Clinging to Metta: not at the same time. When there is metta, there is also detachment, alobha.You do not think of yourself. But in between moments of metta there can be clinging: it feels so good to have metta, I should have more of it. It is the same with jhaana, there can be clinging to jhana after the jhaanacitta has fallen away. Or aversion that one is no longer in jhaana. This is explained in one of the suttas. This type of aversion, it is said, is not worldly, fleshly, aamisa. All dhammas can be objects of clinging except nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana. Nina. op 06-08-2005 12:21 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: Actually the Second Noble Truth concerns craving, not exactly > desire but close to it. There are such things as wholesome desire and > unwholesome desire. I am referring to wholesome desire: the desire to > be liberated from clinging/craving through the systematic cultivation > of metta and insight. 48560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? nilovg Hi Tep, On account of your questions I have a text by Ven. Nyanaponika that may be of interest. In Abhidhamma Studies, p. 47 he speaks about the Pentad (group of five, pañcaka) of Sense Impression. In the list of the Dhammas Sangani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma, these are: contact, feeling, perception, volition nad citta , and after that follow many other cetasikas. We find this Pentad in the Suttas. Actually they represent the four nama- khandhas which always arise and fall away together. They occur in the Anupada-Sutta (M.N. 111) where also the jhanafactors are given. But as you see from the whole list of the Dhammasangani and our Visuddhimagga studies, there are many more cetasikas that accompany cittas in different combinations: the seven universals, the particulars, the akusala cetasikas, the sobhana cetasikas. op 06-08-2005 18:27 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > 1. Am I correct to say that, according to the above definition, citta or > consciousness is not the same as mind or mano? ----- N: The translation mind may be confusing. I find it easier to use: citta and its accompanying cetasikas which are mental, nama. The terms citta, mano, viññaa.na are the same reality. -------- T: 2. In order that mindfulness may arise, is it absolutely necessary that > the meditator must have intention (cetana) that 'I will not be forgetful' ? > Or, in other words, do you say that sati can only be trained through > intention? ------- N: Cetana and in this case kusala cetanaa, arises and supports the kusala citta with sati, but it is not the only sobhana cetasika. There are also wise attention, confidence in the Path, lightness of mind, wieldiness, and many others. There are many factors and an important one is intellectual right understanding of the objects of sati, it should be understood of what sati is aware of. Nina. 48561 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question nilovg Hi Herman (and Howard), I enjoyed your lively posts. op 07-08-2005 00:28 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > as the previous nama was knowing? ------ Howard made a joke with a lesson in it. He warned you that we should not see cittas as different personalities that decide things, little selves. They are conditioned dhammas. The number 17 is used by way of comparison. Citta falls away faster than rupa. When rupa such as visible object is the object of cittas arising in a process, not all seventeen experience that rupa. There are first bhavangacittas arising which experience their own object. Then the eye-door adverting-consciousness, followed by seeing, receiving consciousness, investigating consciousness, determining-consciousness and seven kusala or akusala cittas that react to the object with wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. After that there may be two more vipaakacittas, retention-consciousness. I do not want to give you too many details. There is a certain order of the cittas that succeed one another in a process, and nobody can change that. It is called the law of dhamma. Cittas arise each because of their own conditions and all they have to do is performing their function while they experience the rupa that has not fallen away yet. They do not think about the rupa, or whether it is still the same. They just perform their function and then fall away. This is according to conditions. Nina. 48562 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/7/05 4:32:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: Of course! Now why didn't I think of that at the time (must have been overwhelmed by the occasion ;-)). Jon ==================== :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48563 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/7/05 4:55:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: Hi Howard (and Nina) Just butting in ;-)) --- upasaka@... wrote: > No, it's more a matter of how phenomena are sensed. While one may > intellectually realize that one phenomenon arises in dependence on > several others, > yet because that phenomenon is distinguishable from the others (and, > indeed, we > don't confuse hardness with sights, or love with fear), and because of > our > deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making," there is the tendency to > *sense* > it and *think* of it as a separate, self-existent entity with a core of > own-being and that is merely *related* to the others, which also are > separate > self-existent entities. I agree there is a deep-seated inclination towards "thing-making", but I am familiar with this in the context of conceiving of people and things. When one learns about dhammas one also learns about conditionality; both are core aspects of the teachings. The generalisation you make here is not a commonly accepted one, as far as I'm aware. -------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, in the suttas the Buddha talks of impermanance and conditionality quite generally, with regard to composite "things" as well as khandhic elements. And Our tendency to reify our experience is not limited to pa~n~natti, despite our intellectual grasp of conditionality. Our ignorance-defiled conceptualization applies acroos the board, even to paramattha dhammas. I'm not discussing belief and theory, but the more subtle, subliminal grasping at mind-made, self-existing entities, whether as subject or as object. The hardness we cognize is not the mere hardness we directly experience. Our sa~n~na is defiled, even as it recognizes paramattha dhammas. Ignorance "has its way with us". We are not even close to being free of it, it seems to me. -------------------------------------------- ... > I think we need to be careful about this business of distinguishing > nama from rupa. > As I see it, if it means distinguishing mental from physical in > general, > the distinction is valid, real, and important. It is also, for me, quite > clear > ( or so it seems ;-). Of course, I might well be deluded in how much > clarity I have in that respect. > But I think that it is common for people - I've even seen some > Abhidhammikas fall into this - to conflate 'rupa' with 'arammana', and > to understand > distinguishing nama from rupa, not as a matter of distinguishing mental > from > physical in general, but of subject from object. But distinguishing > subject from > object is what all worldings do, and in its hardened form, it produces > the > sense of an "I" entity grasping an "other" entity, a form of solidified > duality > that, IMO, lies at the root of our un-knowing. But the danger you see here is of that of misunderstanding the distinction between nama and rupa. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. And that misunderstanding is common. That's why I say that care must be taken. (I don't deny the nama vs rupa distinction.) ----------------------------------- That surely is something that goes for any aspect of the teachings, not especially as regards the distinction between namas and rupas? ------------------------------------ Howard: I think this is an area of vulnerability that is particularly critical. ------------------------------------ Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48564 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 8/7/05 9:50:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Herman (and Howard), I enjoyed your lively posts. op 07-08-2005 00:28 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > as the previous nama was knowing? ------ Howard made a joke with a lesson in it. He warned you that we should not see cittas as different personalities that decide things, little selves. They are conditioned dhammas. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Wonderful, Nina! It is *such* a pleasure to be well understood! (As I also know Herman understood me, with his "wicked" comment. ;-) ------------------------------------------- The number 17 is used by way of comparison. Citta falls away faster than rupa. When rupa such as visible object is the object of cittas arising in a process, not all seventeen experience that rupa. There are first bhavangacittas arising which experience their own object. Then the eye-door adverting-consciousness, followed by seeing, receiving consciousness, investigating consciousness, determining-consciousness and seven kusala or akusala cittas that react to the object with wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. After that there may be two more vipaakacittas, retention-consciousness. I do not want to give you too many details. There is a certain order of the cittas that succeed one another in a process, and nobody can change that. It is called the law of dhamma. Cittas arise each because of their own conditions and all they have to do is performing their function while they experience the rupa that has not fallen away yet. They do not think about the rupa, or whether it is still the same. They just perform their function and then fall away. This is according to conditions. Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48565 From: nina Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 11:17am Subject: Cambodian Lectures. nilovg Dear friends, I read this passage to Lodewijk at dinner from Kh Sujin's lectures in Cambodia: Nina. 48566 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Attn. Ven. Samahita) - I was glad to read your Abhudhamma-based answers to the questions I had on the supporting condition of mindfulness and on the (confusing) definition of mind. >N: There are many factors and an important one is intellectual >right understanding of the objects of sati, it should be understood of >what sati is aware of. Tep: In your answer you also listed kusala cetana, wise attention, etc., as the other cetasikas that arise and support "the kusala citta with sati". So I wonder why Kundaliya Sutta only mentions the three kinds of good conduct (i.e. sila) : "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." -------------------------------- >>Tep: 1. Am I correct to say that, according to the above definition, >>citta or consciousness is not the same as mind or mano? ----- >N: The translation mind may be confusing. I find it easier to use: >citta and its accompanying cetasikas which are mental, nama. >The terms citta, mano, vinnaa.na are the same reality. Tep: I remember that the Visuddhimagga also says that citta, mano, and vinnaa.na are the same with regard to meaning. But I like the simpler definition of mind as citta & associated cetasika, although I have seen a simpler definition: citta = mind. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > On account of your questions I have a text by Ven. Nyanaponika that may be of interest. > In Abhidhamma Studies, p. 47 he speaks about the Pentad (group of five, pañcaka) of Sense Impression. In the list of the Dhammas Sangani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma, these are: contact, feeling, perception, volition and citta , and after that follow many other cetasikas. > We find this Pentad in the Suttas. Actually they represent the four nama- khandhas which always arise and fall away together. They occur in the Anupada-Sutta (M.N. 111) where also the jhanafactors are given. > But as you see from the whole list of the Dhammasangani and our > Visuddhimagga studies, there are many more cetasikas that accompany cittas in different combinations: the seven universals, the particulars, the akusala cetasikas, the sobhana cetasikas. > 48567 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Agrios, > op 28-07-2005 20:55 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > > > Abidhammas teach things absent in Blessed One teachings > N: You and I are of different backgounds, we have different accumulated > tendencies and inclinations, and this shows how anatta such inclinations > are. They are really conditioned and are expressed by speech. > I understand that you think differently about the Abhidhamma. > --------- > A: But I see you don't want to discuss confusing definition > > of sankhara nor trace source of confusion. > > You change the topic of this thread to tell me that I am > > free to study what I want. > -------- > N: I tried to explain about sankhaara from the beginning, but I also know > that you do not take to the Abhidhamma. So, nobody should force himself to > study what he dislikes. > -------- > A: The Dhamma is not pretty at all. At least not in my eyes. > > The truth of dependent processes is painfully "down to earth". > > I practice leaving pretty things behind and don't search for > > happy feelings. > ------ > N: Down to earth, certainly. But, there is also a sunny side. The Buddha > taught us the way to liberation from dukkha. We should be grateful to him > and have real confidence in his teaching. This can fill us with joy, and > here I do not mean the akusala joy that is with attachment. I mean assurance > that can grow when we have more understanding of his teachings. > ***** > Nina. Dear Nina, I've spent few days off, thinking about your post and still do not understand why should we start talking about my and yours preferences, accumulations, likings or forcing anyone into anything. I just stated that I am aware of sankhára as a "determination" or a "determinant" or "initiation", a constitutive factor on which something else depends, or is determined by it. PRIOR to any formation. Clearly not something formed, formation of any sort but act of forming or initiation rather. Since there is cetana involved it is quite complex and very dynamic phenomenon. I also stated, that sanna and vinnana are sankhara khandas, cittasankharo khanda to be precise (manosankháram abhisankharoti). They are very basic sankharas, one of 3 groups: body initiations, speech initiations and mental initiations and can be experienced, whether some monks have them on their list of sankharas or not. In Bhumija Sutta Samyutta Nikaya XII.25: "When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain arise internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual intention as the cause. "From ignorance as a requisite condition, then either of one's own accord one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or because of others one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. Either alert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or unalert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. (Similarly with verbal & intellectual fabrications.) All of it is explained in two clear statements. But this text can be translated as follows: This was firstly my mediative experience, and secondly intellectual realisation that there is difference between teaching of the Blessed One and some later monks. It is not the first time I have that kind of intelectual experience with various comentaries. It teaches me simply to spend more time on practice and none whatsoever reading comentaries. with lots of respect, Agrios 48568 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 2:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sankhara khanda - study and enjoyment. agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > > But this text can be translated as follows: Ups... forgot to paste different rendering of this sutta. No matter now. Please disregard. Agrios. 48569 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 3:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you for the further explanations. I am still not clear on why it is said that cittas fall away quicker than rupas, but it is not really that important. Also, have I understood rightly that it is said that body-door process and the following mind-door process have the SELFSAME rupa as object? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman (and Howard), > I enjoyed your lively posts. > op 07-08-2005 00:28 schreef Egbert op hhofman@b...: > > > > It is said that a rupa has the duration of 17 namas. 17 namas arise > > and cease to know one, single rupa. Nama knows, rupa doesn't. How does > > or can an arising nama know that it is the SELFSAME rupa being known > > as the previous nama was knowing? > ------ > Howard made a joke with a lesson in it. He warned you that we should not see > cittas as different personalities that decide things, little selves. They > are conditioned dhammas. > The number 17 is used by way of comparison. Citta falls away faster than > rupa. > When rupa such as visible object is the object of cittas arising in a > process, not all seventeen experience that rupa. There are first > bhavangacittas arising which experience their own object. Then the eye-door > adverting-consciousness, followed by seeing, receiving consciousness, > investigating consciousness, determining-consciousness and seven kusala or > akusala cittas that react to the object with wholesomeness or > unwholesomeness. After that there may be two more vipaakacittas, > retention-consciousness. I do not want to give you too many details. > There is a certain order of the cittas that succeed one another in a > process, and nobody can change that. It is called the law of dhamma. > Cittas arise each because of their own conditions and all they have to do is > performing their function while they experience the rupa that has not fallen > away yet. They do not think about the rupa, or whether it is still the same. > They just perform their function and then fall away. This is according to > conditions. > Nina. 48570 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable - conditions. egberdina Hi Howard, Nina, Jon, I have been following the discussion with great interest. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, in the suttas the Buddha talks of impermanance and conditionality > quite generally, with regard to composite "things" as well as khandhic elements. > And Our tendency to reify our experience is not limited to pa~n~natti, > despite our intellectual grasp of conditionality. Our ignorance-defiled > conceptualization applies acroos the board, even to paramattha dhammas. ==== I agree with what you are saying here, Howard. I am wondering of late whether there can be any understanding of conditionality that is not conceptual? Do the Suttas suggest anywhere that there can be "direct knowing" of conditionality? It seems to me that any understanding of conditionality must be based in part on past experience. Kind Regards Herman 48571 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/7/05 6:01:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Nina, Thank you for the further explanations. I am still not clear on why it is said that cittas fall away quicker than rupas, but it is not really that important. --------------------------------------- Howard: Here's a commonsense approach to the matter: While experincing a rupa - say hardness, your state of mind might change from concentrated to distracted or change in some other manner. What that would amount to is a cetasika change. Any time there is a cetasika change, it is a new mindstate. --------------------------------------- Also, have I understood rightly that it is said that body-door process and the following mind-door process have the SELFSAME rupa as object? Kind Regards Herman ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48572 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 3:47pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 469) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 2. ogha dhamma or flood There are 4 ogha dhamma. They are 1. kaamogha ( kaama-Ogha ) or flood of sensuous-desire 2. bhavogha ( bhava-ogha ) or flood of existence-desire 3. ditthogha( ditthi-ogha) or flood of wrong-view 4. avijjogha( avijja-ogha) or flood of ignorance When arahatta magga citta arises arahahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge or (kilesa-)eradicating path-knowledge arise and this knowledge already overcome all ogha or flood without exception. When the first three path-knowledge could not overcome bhavogha or flood of existence-desire and avijjogha or the flood of ignorance arahatta magga naana or (kilesa) eradicating pth-knowledge or arahatta magga naana overcome both floods namely bhavogha and avijjogha. As arahats who have eradicated all defilements without any exception these arahatta individuals all overcome all floods. So these floods or oghas can no more sweep these arahats away from the security of emancipation or sink down to rebirth in any of 31 realms. In this way all arahats can overcome any of 4 floods or 4 ogha dhamma. So to face with these mahogha or great waves of flood all beings should have been tracing for the path to attain arahatta magga naana as a tool to overcome all these 4 oghas or floods. As said in earlier posts 'How to attain arahatta magga naana' will be discussed in later posts as the topic is so wide to cover in the current stream of thoughts. So that topic will be deferred at later posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48573 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 470) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 2. ogha dhamma or flood 3. yoga dhamma (yoke, bond, tie, attachment) There are 4 yoga dhamma or 4 yokes. They are 1. kaama yoga or 'yoke of sensuality' 2. bhava yoga or 'yoke of existence' 3. ditthi yoga or 'yoke of wrong-view' 4. avijja yoga or 'yoke of ignorance'. Dhamma-wise these 4 dhammas are all the same as aasava dhamma and ogha dhamma. That is the dhamma-kaaya or dhamma-body or the essence in all these are lobha, ditthi, and moha cetasika. In lobha appears as kaamasava & bhavaasava, kaamogha & bhavogha, kaama yoga & bhava yoga, ditthi appears as ditthaasava, ditthogha and ditthi yoga, and moha appears as avijjaasava, avijjogha and avijja yoga. The implications of these dhamma are to demonstrate how each dhamma strike beings down in many different ways. Aasava dhamma behave as flowing, exuding to unhappy destination or unsatisfactory destination. Ogha dhamma sweep away beings from the shelter or security of emancipation and sink them down to unsatisfactory destination. Yoga dhamma yet behave in another way from those of aasava or canker, ogha or flood. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48574 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable - conditions. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 8/7/05 6:16:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: I am wondering of late whether there can be any understanding of conditionality that is not conceptual? Do the Suttas suggest anywhere that there can be "direct knowing" of conditionality? It seems to me that any understanding of conditionality must be based in part on past experience. ========================= Well, I think that conditionality and other relations, while not traditional "paramattha dhammas," are realities, and that a trained mind is capable of directly knowing them. But for us, I think it must be an inferential knowing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 48575 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 3:53pm Subject: The findings of Mr Libet egberdina Hi all, Some of you may find this interesting and relevant. Mr Libet, as early as 1973, reported that the earliest experiential awareness of a sensory stimulus occurs about 500 msec (0.5 sec) after the stimulus itself. These experiments involved applying small electrical pulses to the skin of the hands of patients who were undergoing brain surgery, and then measuring the resulting electrical signals from electrodes implanted in the sensory cortex of the brain. The experiments showed that none of our experiences of perception are in objective time (time as measured by a clock or other instrument), but in fact are delayed by about one-half second after the objective events. In addition, Libet, et al. showed that the brain refers the experience retroactively to the time of stimulus. In other words, while we think we experience things as they happen, we actually don't. In Buddhist terms, the appearance of certain namas and rupas belonging together in time is entirely fabricated. Even more interesting, in 1983 Mr Libet showed that the neuronal equivalent of the decision to perform a muscle act is made prior to the awareness of the decision. In other words, we become aware of a decision only after the decision has already been made. Volition and the awareness of volition are not the same. But we all knew that, didn't we ? :-) Kind Regards Herman 48576 From: "Charlie Patton" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 10:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] Introduction and Question, skilfullness. cdpatton2003 Hi, Nina: Nina van Gorkom wrote on August 04, 2005 3:59 AM: N:> Hi Charlie, > welcome to the list. Your question is food for thought! see below. > Our moderators are now on vacation, but recently Sarah gave some tips for > newcomers. Could you look at the message center? > Where do you live, and is Chinese your family language? Where did you learn > it? ----------- Ch: Thank you for the welcome, Nina. Thanks also for directing me to the guidelines. I live in a small town on the Minnesota prairie, near Mankato, in the United States. It is about as far from an ocean as a person can get on this continent. Actually, I had no connection to anything Chinese until about ten years ago while I was still a student at Ohio State University (I was born in Ohio). At the time, I had been recovering for a couple years from a family tragedy that had left my father dead. This had prompted me to explore religion, of which I had little experience before. I had been introduced to an odd sort of American Christian Baptist Church ministered by my great uncle as a child. I had by nature been able to discern most of it as nonsense and did not become a Christian. I suppose I could in retrospect say that I was naturally drawn to the general teaching of dependent origination even before I encountered Buddhism. I had opted to study the sciences as a child and a teenager and had a negative attitude towards religion in general, because it could not rationally explain how thing worked or came to be. After my father's death, however, I found that science had nothing to say about the human experience of tragedy and suffering in general and I went looking for more. Not liking Christianity, I started reading about Zen and Taoism and found it quite interesting. One thing led to another and I was learning to read Chinese in my spare time, because I found the translations of the Tao Te Ching and the Daimond Sutra so variable between translators, I wanted to read the Chinese for myself. It has taken a good six years to learn classical Chinese and collect the references needed to decipher the transliterations and such. Some of my older translations, which need to be updated, revised, corrected yet, are online at my website (see my signature below). --------------------------------------------------- op 03-08-2005 18:24 schreef Charlie Patton op cdpatton2003@...: >> First, I would like to say that the discourse that I see happening here is >> very good and has the right attitude. ------ N:> We all make mistakes, but as you will see, afterwards apologies are made. > I learnt so much from Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammanando. He once gave seven > translations of texts, and showed how different characters of translators > were expressed in them. His first sentence I shall not forget: discussions > should be unemotive. > I would say, emotions within limits, not offending others. But, as said, we > are human and make mistakes. Jon said, we are restrained because we are > concerned for others who are interested in Dhamma. > Also, when someone else is of a different background, we can learn from him > by reflecting on his ideas. ------ Ch: Mistakes are natural. It is what happens after the mistakes are made that matters. For instance, if people refuse to even consider that mistakes are made when they are made, there is no possibility of any directed improvement. On the other hand, if mistakes are simply swept under a rug after they are recognized, there is still little progress to be had. But when mistakes are recognized, and effort is made to correct what caused them to happen, then a healthy enivironment ensues over time. I have been reading the discussions here for a couple months without participating myself (mostly for a lack of time) and find the discussions here much more fruitful than many other Buddhist forums that exist. --------------------------------------------------- Ch:>> I translate Buddhist texts from Chinese to English, but cannot read Pali or >> Sanskrit, and so need help at times understanding the original texts from >> which the Chinese texts were translated. One of my ongoing translation >> projects is to translate selections from the four Agamas ------- N:> This is exactly what several members of the Paliyahoo list are doing. you > will receive much help from them. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/ > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com -------- Ch: Thanks for this reference. I will look into that discussion group on translation issues. I take it, after reading the guidelines, that it might be a bit off-topic here? --------------------------------------------------- Ch: I am at the moment working on a >> translation of the Agama equivalent (Madhyama Agama No. 189) of the Pali >> Majjhima Nikaya No. 117 Mahacattarisaka (The Great Forty). I have the >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation on hand to use as a >> comparison. However, there is a passage in the Chinese that has me somewhat >> stumped. It is a stock definition of right effort (translated by the >> Chinese translator as "right skillfulness" for whatever reason). The >> passage does not occur in MN.117, but there are places in the Nikayas where >> a very similar stock passage is found (cf. MN.141.29). ------- N:> In PTS it is translated as right endeavour. ------- Ch: Yes, and this is generally the way the term is translated to Chinese as well. The Agamas were translated somewhat early on in the history of Buddhist texts being translated to Chinese, before translation of common terms was standardized by consensus, and the translator of the Middle Agama (Gautama-sanghadeva) seems to have some odd ways of translating at times. It's one of the things that makes translating translations of original texts tricky. An odd Chinese term could be a quirk of the translator, or it could be representative of a quirk in the original Indian text. With most of the originals long lost, it becomes detective work. ------- N:> I find the Chinese term right skillfulness very interesting. The Expositor > (I, p. 48) gives as one of the renderings for wholesome (kusala): > skillfulness. There is ignorance with each form of kusala. When there is > ignorance there is mental clumsiness, whatever we endeavour goes wrong. > There is no wieldiness, no adaptability that enables us to perform kusala. > In the Great Forty, right understanding comes first is emphasized many > times. This is right understanding of the eightfold Path. This is the > condition for right endeavour. > The Pali term viriya, is translated as effort or energy and this can be > unwholesome, akusala or kusala. When it is kusala we can also think of > courage, courage to persevere with kusala. -------- Ch: Yes, I think the translator was attempting to interpret the term and produce a Chinese term that was meaningful to his audience. Certainly, we can see how skillfulness is very much intergal to the task of the four right efforts. A great deal of effort ill-applied yields nothing. Whereas often a little effort applied well can be very effective. Or, perhaps there was a miscommunication between the translator and his aides. Because the Chinese written language took many years to learn, most of the Indian and Central Asian translators were fluent in Chinese only verbally, sometimes not at all. A typical translator team consisted of the translator reading to someone fluent in both his language and Chinese who directed the copyist to write it down correctly. Then editors read over the written Chinese several times. Sometimes, there was no physical text of the Sutra being translated, but rather the Sutra being translated was recited from memory by the translator. There is a story about a particular translator who was forced to go on a long journey to visit another translator because he had forgotten a large portion of the Sutra he was working on, which I suspect must have been at least a little embarrassing. ------ N:> You did not finish the sentence. But nirodha, cessation, is a term for > nibbaana. The end of defilements. The eightfold Path is leading towards it. > The term viraaga is also used, without passion. Viraaga is used for > arahatship as well as for nibbaana. > Nina. ------ Ch: Let me give the passages in full. I had truncated them to just the stock phrase used with each of the four right efforts. Nanamoli-Bodhi version of the Pali (MN.141.29): "And what, friends, is right effort? Here, a bhikku awakens zeal for the non-arising of unarisen evil unwholesome states, and he makes effort, arouses energy, exerts his mind, and strives. He awakens zeal for the abandoning of arisen evil unwholesome states, and he makes effort, arouses energy, exerts his mind, and strives. He awakens zeal for the arising of unarisen wholesome states, and he makes effort, arouses energy, exerts his mind, and strives. He awakens zeal for the continuance, non-disappearance, strengthening, increase, and fulfillment by development of arisen wholesome states, and he makes effort, arouses energy, exerts his mind, and strives. This is called right effort." Patton's version of the Chinese (MA.189.24): "And what is right skillfulness? A bhiksu, so as to put an end to an evil dharma that has arisen, initiates the desire, pursues skillfulness, endevours, rouses the mind, and ceases. So as to cause evil dharmas that yet to arise to not arise, he initiates the desire, pursues skillfulness, endevours, rouses the mind, and ceases. So as to cause a good dharma that has yet to arise to arise, he initiates the desire, pursues skillfulness, endevours, rouses the mind, and ceases. In order to cause a good dharma that has arisen to remain, and in order to not lose it, not turn back, increase it further, and cultivate its fulfillment, he initiates the desire, pursues skillfulness, endevours, rouses the mind, and ceases. This is said to be right skillfulness." When you compare the two passages, it seems clear they are both the same stock passage, albeit translated in different idioms by different translators. However, where the Pali has "strives" the Chinese has "ceases." It does not simply refer to the ceasing of the evil dharmas, since it is the same treatment of all four cases, evil and good. Well, in any case, I will see if the Pali group can help with this. I suspect the Pali is straightforward and the Chinese will remain perplexing to me. Charlie. ----------- Charles D. Patton, II email: cdpatton2003@... www: http://www.cdpatton.net/ 48577 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Satipatthaana (05) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ 1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on breathing. 1. The meditator contemplates on 'ruupa' that arise from long breathing of his own. There will be more ruupas than in short breathing. Ruupas here are all material phenomena and they are movements, touch, temperature. He may notice any movements related to breathing. These include movement of breathing air through nostril, movement of nose-hairs, movement of nostrils, movement of chest, expanding movement of arms when chest expands, movement of abdomen. In summary this contemplation is 'contemplation on long breathing'. This may also invlove contemplation on 'tenseness-looseness', warmth- cold, fine-air-touch and so on. Contemplation is not on 'the word' 'long breath' or 'long breathing' or 'I am breathing long'. Contemplation is on 'material phenomena' or ruupa. But this contemplation is on 'ruupas that arise from long breathing'. 2. The meditator contemplates on 'ruupa' that arise from short breathing of his own and the same applies as in long breathing. 3. The meditators contemplates on 'all ruupas' that arise from breathing activities. This happens when he becomes more mature at breathing meditation. He sees very fine breathing, which seems almost undetectable even though more mature wisdom can see such fine breathing. He senses all ruupas arise from breathing activities (sabba kaaya pa.tisa.mvedii). This contemplation is not on 'hair' that does not move or not related to breathing, not on nails that do not invlove in breathing, not on palms and soles that do not involve in breathing. Sabba means 'all'. Kaaya means 'body' 'combination'. Here it just means 'whole physical body'. But the implication is on those that involve in breathing activities. The meditator is just seeing 'ruupa' or material phenomena that arise from breathing activities. Pa.ti here has the meaning of 'strike' 'touch' 'hit' and sa.m means 'well'. So pa.tisa.m means 'touching well'. Vedati means 'feel'. Sabba-kaaya pa.tisa.mvedii means 'strikingly-well-feeling whole body that invlove in breathing activities'. He thus trains 'I will breathe in/out sensitive to the whole body'. Here 'the whole body' means 'all ruupas or material phenomena that arise from breathing activity'. I say this because the heading is anapana pabba or breathing section. And meditators have to contemplate on naama or ruupa. Here it is ruupa. These ruupas are 'all ruupas that arise from breathing activities'. This does not happen to beginners in earlier stage of their meditation. But when they become proficient in breathing meditation then they become able to sense all ruupas that arise from breathing acitvities. When this happen, breathing becomes very subtle. This leads to 4th contemplation. 4. The meditator contemplates on 'all ruupas that have arisen from tranquilised activities of breathing'. This also happen to meditators who become mature because of repeated practice. In all these 4 contemplations, the meditator contemplates on ruupa and not on any other things. So he is free from abhijjhaa(lobha or attachment) and domanassa (dosa or hatred) and he is not depending on clinging to anything and temporarily liberated. When these 4 contemplations become at proficient level then the meditator sometimes clearly see that 'these ruupas will be arising in others when they are breathing long (5), they are breathing short (6), when they become to know all ruupas arise from their breathing acitivities (7), when they know 'all ruupas arise from tranquilsed activities of breathing (8). And sometimes he perceives ruupas in his body and sometimes ruupas in others (9,10,11,12). The breathing mind, the entrance to lungs that is nostrils, breathing appratus that is chest and chest muscles, abdomen and abdomen muscles are all 'origination of breathing' or 'samudaya-dhamma'. The meditator when he become mature he realises these and he contemplates on these causes (13). Sometimes he perceives that when the breathing mind vanishes, or when there is no nostrils, or no chest-abdomen' there will be dissolution of 'those ruupas that arise from breathing acivities' or vaya-dhamma (14). Sometimes he perceives that there are origination and there are dissolution (15). With Metta, Htoo Naing 48578 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Learning the Wording of the Doctrine christine_fo... Hello Herman, Thanks for the offer, but I'm not up for word games.:-) I think we can let it lay - just wanted to bring the suttas to everyone's attention again - particulary those from the Anguttara Nikaya - not easily found on-line. May you be well and happy, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > > 48579 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 5:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Botanical Gardens - Depression, Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding buddhatrue Hi Nina (and All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Yes, there are wholesome desire and unwholesome desire. It is confusing > that there are so many different translations in different contexts. It is > easier to use the Pali term lobha. Chanda, wis-to-do or zeal, also > translated as desire can be kusala or akusala. James: Glad that you agree. I was afraid that members would disagree with that statement and then I would have to explain. Big mess and tiresome. Yes, desire for liberation is good and wholesome. > BTW I came across an old post of yours where you said that you study Pali, > Arabic and Hebrew. Fascinating. How are you getting on? Reading texts? James: Are you sure I wrote that I was studying Hebrew? I have studied some Arabic, to get by in Cairo. And I have been reading some Pali dictionaries I downloaded; but I haven't ever studied Hebrew. I have studied Spanish and can speak at the functional level. I am getting along fine. Currently I haven't been reading texts, most of them are packed away. I have been reading other spiritual materials. > Clinging to Metta: not at the same time. When there is metta, there is also > detachment, alobha.You do not think of yourself. James: That is my point exactly- it isn't possible to cling to metta. But in between moments of > metta there can be clinging: it feels so good to have metta, I should have > more of it. James: Nicely put. Well, then in that case it isn't metta receiving the clinging, it is feelings and/or ego. Metta is not to blame for that, the clinging would occur to feelings and/or ego with or without the experience of metta. It is the same with jhaana, there can be clinging to jhana after > the jhaanacitta has fallen away. Or aversion that one is no longer in > jhaana. This is explained in one of the suttas. This type of aversion, it is > said, is not worldly, fleshly, aamisa. James: Yes, there can be clinging to the feelings/sensations of jhana or the ego gratification "I can experience jhana", but this isn't the fault of jhana. This is why a good teacher is always essential to bring the jhana practitioner (or metta meditation practitioner) back to reality if clinging becomes severe after the experiences. > All dhammas can be objects of clinging except nibbaana and the lokuttara > cittas that experience nibbaana. James: Yes, I would agree that one cannot cling to nibbana, it is the opposite of clinging. However, following your logic of moments in-between, it is possible for a sotapanna to cling to lokuttara cittas that experience nibbana, once they have fallen away. Since the sotapanna hasn't eliminated all traces of clinging, there could be a clinging to that experience of nibbana and a desire to have it happen again, right? Just wondering. > Nina. > op 06-08-2005 12:21 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > James: Actually the Second Noble Truth concerns craving, not exactly > > desire but close to it. There are such things as wholesome desire and > > unwholesome desire. I am referring to wholesome desire: the desire to > > be liberated from clinging/craving through the systematic cultivation > > of metta and insight. 48580 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Metta (was Re: Botanical Gardens - Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding buddhatrue Hi Joop, I answered some of these questions thoroughly in my recent post to Nina. You might want to read that post as well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H., > .... > > Hallo James > > You made some remarks to Ken H (not the 'really' Ken of course but > the 'Ken' in your mind, as we all do). I should like to agree with > you, but Im not sure I do understand you. > So some questions: > > James: I have already pointed out where they deviate from the ancient > Theravad texts: in the teachings of the Buddha on the cultivation of > metta and the Vism. that describes the technique leading to the > cultivation of metta. > Joop: does the Vism. belong to the 'ancient Theravada texts' or to > the 'modern' ? James: I believe it belongs in the category of 'ancient Theravada texts'. Why? Because it's pretty old and its Theravada! LOL! > (I prefer to make the classification Tipitaka vs > explanatory/commentarial of all ages; > and within the latter old ones (till the Abh. Sangaha) vs modern > ones; > and within the latter orthodox vs freethinker but buddhist ones) James: I tend to go with more simplistic classifications, gives me less I have to think about. ;-)) > > James: …. I was simply stating that Sarah and Jon are very > nice people but they misrepresent what the Buddha taught. > Joop: We will not talk to much about S and J, that can strenghten > their ego. > But in what aspect do they misrepresent what the Buddha taught? James: When they state that the desire to cultivate metta is clinging to metta- that is simply not true in all cases! Metta cannot be clung to and any clinging after the fact isn't the fault of metta. Not only that, but the Buddha taught and recommended the cultivation of metta. Doesn't it seem like a contraction of the Buddha's teaching to put up all these 'CAUTION' and 'WARNING' signs when he didn't put them up? It does seem that way to me, and I am simply expressing my opinion. You don't have to agree. > Do you mean the Buddha is saying we can only cling to the five > aggregates; and do you concluse from that we cannot cling to metta > because metta is not one of this five ? James: Yes. (Except we can also cling to the objects of the six sense doors). > > I think we can cling to the feeling happy when doing metta- > contemplation or metta-meditation. > Or we can cling to the being to whome we think to 'send' metta. > But in both cases it wasn't metta at all but greed. James: Right, this isn't clinging to metta, this is greed. > In this way you are right: if we cling to 'something' we think to be > metta, then it isn't metta. James: Thanks. My point exactly. > > Metta (doubtful typed) > > Joop Metta, James ps. The rest snipped for brevity only. 48581 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 7:52pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 211-216 buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - The following is the Pali contribution from our friend Han Tun, as usual. -------------------------------------- From: han tun Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 1:51 am Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 211 - 216. (message # 1347). Dear Friend Tep, Please find below the inserted Pali words. 212. He combines(samodhaaneti) [other] ideas'(dhamma): how does he combine [other] ideas? (katham dhamme samodhaaneti?) He combines the faculties through their meaning of dominance (aadhipateyyatthena indriyaani samodhaaneti). He combines the powers through their meaning of unshakability (akampiyatthena balaani samodhaaneti). He combines the enlightenment factors through their meaning of outlet (niyyaanatthena bojjhange samodhaaneti). He combines the path through its meaning of cause (hetutthena maggam samodhaaneti). He combines the foundations of mindfulness through their meaning of establishment (upatthaanatthena satipatthaanam samodhaaneti). He combines the right endeavours through their meaning of exertion (padahanatthena sammappadhaanam samodhaaneti). He combines the basis for success through their meaning of succeeding (ijjhanatthena iddhipaadam samodhaaneti). He combines the actualities through their meaning of suchness (tathatthena saccam samodhaaneti). 213. He combines serenity through its meaning of non-distraction (avikkhepatthena samatham samodhaaneti). He combines insight through its meaning of contemplation (anupassanatthena vipassanam samodhaaneti). He combines serenity and insight through their meaning of single function (ekarasatthena samathavipassanam samodhaaneti). He combines coupling through its meaning of non-excess (nativattanatthena yuganaddham samodhaaneti). 214. He combines purification of virtue through its meaning of restraint (samvaratthena silavisuddhim samodhaaneti). He combines purification of cognizance through its meaning of non- distraction (avikkhepatthena cittavisuddhim samodhaaneti). He combines purification of view through its meaning of seeing (dassanatthena ditthivisuddhim samodhaaneti). He combines liberation through its meaning of deliverance (vimuttatthena vimokkham samodhaaneti). He combines recognition through its meaning of penetration (pativedhatthena vijjam samodhaaneti). He combines deliverance through its meaning of giving up (pariccaagatthena vimuttim samodhaaneti). He combines knowledge of exhaustion through the sense of cutting off (samucchedatthena khayenaanam samodhaaneti). He combines knowledge of non-arising in its meaning of tranquillization (patippassaddhatthena anuppaadenaanam samodhaaneti). 215. Zeal he combines through its meaning of root (chandam muulatthena samodhaaneti). Attention he combines through its meaning of originating (manasikaaram samutthaanatthena samodhaaneti). Contact he combines through its meaning of combining (phassam samodhaanatthena samodhaaneti). Feeling he combines through its meaning of meeting (vedanam samosaranatthena samodhaaneti). Concentration he combines through its meaning of its being foremost (samaadhim pamukhatthena samodhaaneti). Mindfulness he combines through its meaning of dominance (satim aadhipateyyatthena samodhaaneti). Understanding he combines through its meaning of being highest of all (pannam taduttaratthena samodhaaneti). Deliverance he combines through its meaning of core (vimuttim saaratthena samodhaaneti). Nibbana, which merges in the deathless, he combines through its meaning of ending (amatogadham nibbaanam pariyosaanatthena samodhaaneti). This person combines these ideas (dhamma) on this object (ayam puggalo ime dhamme imasmim aarammane samodhaaneti). Hence 'He combines [other] ideas' is said (tenavuccati "dhamme samodhaanetii" ti). ------------------------------ (padahanatthena sammappadhaanam samodhaaneti) padahana = padhaana = exertion. (ijjhanatthena iddhipaadam samodhaaneti) ijjhana = success; iddhipaadaa = psychic powers. (pariccaagatthena vimuttim samodhaaneti) pariccaaga = giving up, sacrifice. Stronger word than caaga. (samucchedatthena khayenaanam samodhaaneti) samuccheda = cutting off; khaya = exhaustion. (patippassaddhatthena anuppaadenaanam samodhaaneti) patippassaddhi = tranquillization ; anuppaada = non-arising. (manasikaaram samutthaanatthena samodhaaneti) samutthaana = origination. (vedanam samosaranatthena samodhaaneti) samosarana = coming together, meeting. (samaadhim pamukhatthena samodhaaneti) pamukha = foremost. (pannam taduttaratthena samodhaaneti) taduttara = being highest of all. (vimuttim saaratthena samodhaaneti) saara = core. (amatogadham nibbaanam pariyosaanatthena samodhaaneti) amata = deathless; pariyosaana = the ending part. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun -------------------------------------------- Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:16 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, > 202 - 205. > SariputtaDhamma message # 1214 > > > Dear Tep, > > I have inserted the Pali words in paragraphs 203, 204 and 205. > 48582 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 9:38pm Subject: Metta (was Re: Botanical Gardens - Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding kenhowardau Hi Joop (and James), You asked James: ---------------------- > Do you mean the Buddha is saying we can only cling to the five aggregates; and do you conclude from that we cannot cling to metta because metta is not one of this five? ----------------------- I won't answer for James, but that is an interesting way of asking the question. Would you agree, firstly, that there can be clinging to everything - real and imaginary - that occurs in normal daily life? In other words, there can be clinging, not only the five khandhas, but also to concepts. Secondly, would you agree that metta is not a mere concept, and it therefore does belong in the five khandhas? As I understand (and I could be wrong), metta is the name given to adosa cetasika when it arises in certain, very specific, circumstances. ------------------------------------ Joop: > I think we can cling to the feeling happy when doing metta- contemplation or metta-meditation. ------------------------------------ Metta meditation, as taught by the Buddha, takes place in a single, fleeting moment of consciousness. I won't ask if you agree with that because I am pretty sure you don't. :-) There can be clinging to the feeling that arises with metta, or there can be clinging to metta itself. There can be clinging to some other object, or there can be no clinging at all - it is all determined by conditions, over which there is no control. ------------- Joop: > Or we can cling to the being to whom we think to 'send' metta. ------------- Yes, although I would stress that this clinging (lobha) also happens in a single citta. And it cannot happen in the same citta that sends metta. ---------------------------- Joop: > But in both cases it wasn't metta at all but greed. --------------------------- It may have been metta. Akusala cittas can arise almost immediately after kusala cittas. And then there can be more kusala cittas - it is very difficult to know. -------------------------------------- Joop: > In this way you are right: if we cling to 'something' we think to be metta, then it isn't metta. -------------------------------------- If we cling to a person we think to be good, is that person necessarily not good? No, in everyday life we cling to good and bad, and it is the same at the paramattha level. Metta can arise, perform its functions and fall away, and in the very next process of mind-door cittas, that metta can be the object of clinging. Corrections welcome. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H., > .... > > Hallo James > > You made some remarks to Ken H (not the 'really' Ken of course but > the 'Ken' in your mind, as we all do). I should like to agree with > you, but Im not sure I do understand you. > So some questions: > > 48583 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 11:10pm Subject: Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour on the NS Wales coast... kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I'm glad you are enjoying your holiday - even if Jon can't quite stop working. Tell him, "No one is indispensable!" :-) ------------------ <. . .> S: > K.Sujin was saying at one point (India 01) how there's bound to be fear of 'no self', 'no friend', 'no family' if there hasn't been enough understanding developed....'are we ready to give them up?'. Nina asked about the good cheer in this and K.Sujin said in effect that it's in the understanding..... ----------------------------------- I had been planning to ask you about this. People who study Dhamma are not necessarily seeking release from samsara, are they? (Nor, of course, are they seeking to stay in it.) "It's in the understanding." That's good enough for me. --------------------------------------------------- <. . .> S: > My computer card timer is on and the waves are also beckoning (yes, Herman, lots more lobha:)....but a few words: Have to quickly sign off, no chance of a check or others I'd hoped to mention... ----------------------------------------------------- Big waves, pelicans, dolphins, . . . . You haven't forgotten us at Cooran, have you? We are waiting eagerly with pages of difficult questions. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear All, > > A few words from the reception computer, overlooking the big surf of the > N.S.Wales Pacific coast after a cool morning walk along the beach, only > dolphins catching the waves here..... 48584 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 0:00am Subject: Metta (was Re: Botanical Gardens - Clinging, Acceptance, Understanding jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ... Hallo Ken and James The first moment I have time to react is Thursday On wat 'metta' is and what 'meditation' is One question: do you agree with Nyanaponika? Metta Joop 48585 From: "Justin" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' just999in Hello Jon, You make some good points. It is obvious that people with little or nothing are more concerned with where the next meal will come from, rather than religion. Isn't it a little sick that people try to coerce people to change their religion as a basis for putting food in their stomach?. It is like pushing a side order of jezuz with the meal...the meal that they can only get if they go to the church and convert.... The suicide rate in Sri Lanka has nothing to do with Buddhism. Poverty and civil war can damage any society. Cheers, Justin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Justin, > > Nice to be reading your posts. > > I thought Jon's reply was very to the point. > > My reply will be a bit more worldly. > > The question for me is : why are people in developing countries > susceptible to Christian missionaries? And why is the West walking > away from Christianity in droves? > > I suspect that the answer lies in how much food is in your stomach. A > hungry person is less concerned about their next birth, more concerned > about where their next meal is coming from. > > The promise of Christianity for a poor, hungry person is food on the > table!!!, not Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour who died on the cross > for my sins. > > On the other hand, the West needs to constantly destroy food so as to > maintain stable price levels. Being as sated as we are, it is easy to > see through the basis of organised Christianity as sheer bullshit. > > A point to consider. Why is it that a Buddhist-dominated country like > Sri Lanka is in the top five countries in the world for suicide rates, > and has THE HIGHEST suicide rate in the world for women? > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > 48586 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 10:01pm Subject: The Double Problem ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: 'I'-dentification leads to both mental & bodily Suffering: How, friends, is one troubled both in body and troubled in mind? Here, friends, the uneducated ordinary person, who is not a friend of any Noble Ones and is unskilled and untrained in their Dhamma, who is not a friend of any Great Men and is unskilled and untrained in their Dhamma, such one regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as inside self, or self as inside form. He lives obsessed by the notions: 'I am form, this form is mine'... As he lives obsessed by these notions, that form of his always & inevitably changes, alters & decays... With this very change and alteration of form, there arises in him sorrow, lamentation, grief, pain, discontent, and quite desperate despair... Such one regards feeling, perception, construction & consciousness as the 'self', or the 'self' as possessing feeling, perception, construction & consciousness, or feeling, perception, construction & consciousness as hidden inside the 'self', or the 'self' as hidden inside feeling, perception, construction & consciousness. He lives obsessed & possessed by these subconscious notions: 'I am this very feeling, perception, construction & consciousness, this feeling, perception, construction & consciousness is all mine'... As he lives obsessed by these notions, his feeling, perception, construction & consciousness inevitably changes, & decays... With this same change and alteration of feeling, perception, construction & consciousness, there arises in him sorrow, crying, pain, discontent, & desperate despair... It is in this way, friends, that one is troubled both in body and in mind !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22(1): [III 1-5] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-001.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 48587 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Aug 7, 2005 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Tep Sastri wrote: >I am not yet clear about the relationship between consciousness and mind. If mind is the 'computer', consciousness is the 'electricity'... All which happens in computer is based on electricity. All which happens in mind is based on consciousness. : - ] 48588 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 1:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 471) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) 1. aasava dhamma or cankers 2. ogha dhamma or flood 3. yoga dhamma (yoke, bond, tie, attachment) There are 4 yoga dhamma or 4 yokes. They are 1. kaama yoga or 'yoke of sensuality' 2. bhava yoga or 'yoke of existence' 3. ditthi yoga or 'yoke of wrong-view' 4. avijja yoga or 'yoke of ignorance'. Yoga dhamma yet behave in another way from those of aasava or canker, ogha or flood. Yoga literally means 'yoking' or 'being yoke'. It means connection, bond, tie, association, conjunction, attachment. So the above 4 dhamma of kaama yoga, bhava yoga, ditthi yoga and avijja yoga tie beings not to be liberated from existence in their respective planes. Yoga dhamma yoke beings with 5 pancuppadaanakkhandhas or 5 clinging aggregates. Yoga dhamma bond beings to lower destination and unhappy destination so that beings are not liberated and they are yoked to the different worlds namely kaama loka or sensuous sphere, ruupa loka or fine material sphere, and aruupa loka or non-material sphere or immaterial sphere. This bondage or tie is so tight that beings cannot depart from their tied loka or sphere. Beings cannot escape from binding with yoga dhamma to loka or sphere of existence, which are all pancuppadaanakkhandha or 5 clinging aggregates. These yokes can be cut up, these yokes can be destroyed, these yokes can be untied by 4 different path-knowledge. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48589 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 2:58am Subject: Satipatthaana (06) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 beads in a 'counting-string of beads'. So there will be altogether 10 rounds of the string if total counting is 1080. The serial in 'satipatthana citation bead-counting' is a) 009 Buddha attributes b) 261 body-contemplations c) 009 B-A d) 030 feeling-contemplations e) 009 B-A f) 051 consciousness-contemplations g) 009 B-A h) 108 dhamma-contemplations i) 009 B-A j) 261 body-contemplations k) 009 B-A l) 030 feeling-contemplations m) 009 B-A n) 051 consciousness-contemplations o) 009 B-A p) 108 dhamma-contemplations q) 009 B-A s) 099 Noble-Truth-contemplations (saccaanupassanaa) ------ 1080 total contemplations a) Buddha's 9 attributes (araham, sammasambuddho,..Buddho, Bhagavaa) b) 261 body contemplations 14 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on '1st stage of body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on '2nd stage of body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on '3rd stage of body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on '4th stage of body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on '5th stage of body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on '6th stage of body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on '7th stage of body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on '8th stage of body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on '9th stage of body foulness' ----- ++261 contemplations on body 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' Again as in 15 contemplations on 'breathing', these 15 contemplations on 'posture' are also on 'ruupa' or material phenomena. 1. Contemplation on 'going' [of self] Here is the most controversial point for satipatthaana. When one goes he knows he goes. This is not satipatthana. Ordinary uninstructed, uneducated, unlearned person may also know when he goes as 'he goes'. But this knowing is not like 'satipatthana' Example; when one goes somewhere what he actually knows through out his going are just 'thinking on immediate future' 'thinking on other activities' 'thinking about home situation' 'thinking on food' 'thinking on many other things'. Even when he knows that he goes 'this knowing is just 'a temporary moment' and then he moves back to other thinking. Such knowing can even be present in dogs, jackals, and many going animals. They may know that they are going, running, rushing to grasp their beast. Such knowing is not satipatthana. In mahaasatipatthaana sutta, the actual word what The Buddha said is 'idha bhikkhu'. Idha means 'here' 'in this place' 'in this area' 'in this supervision' 'in this teaching' 'in this saasana'. When mahaasatipatthaana was preached the audience was 'all bhikkhus'. The Buddha was saying by giving 'typical bhikkhu's activities'. The word for this is 'idha bhikkhu'. This in the context means 'well- instructed bhikkhu' 'well-trained bhikkhu' 'well-taught bhikkhu'. In the first part [anapana pabba or section on breathing] The Buddha talked on breathing-related matters. There, I [Htoo] just make '15 contemplations on breathing'. All these 15 contemplations are in mahaasatipatthaana sutta in anapana pabba or section on breathing. For the reason to remember easily I make 15 different contemplations. When The Buddha moved to the 2nd section that is section on 'posture' or iriya-patha pabba The Buddha said, 'Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati', .thito vaa .thitohmii'ti pajaanaati, 'nissi.mnovaa nisi.mnomhii'ti pajaanaati, sayaano vaa sayanohmii'ti pajaanaati.' I have posted this series in simple English and here I just include to reveal 'the actual words spoken by The Buddha'. And I will explain what they mean to the best. In the 1st section [breathing], contemplations on breathing-related ruupas have been explained. As breathing is universal for all, the first section has to be 'breathing'. We are at any given time at 'breathing in period' or at 'breathing out' period. This is just a general division. What is important is to contemplate on ruupa at bodily activities of breathing. There exist ruupas even when there is no breathing temporarily. So when there is no breathing, the meditator does not need to worry. Because there always are ruupas arise from breathing-related activities like 'tenseness in the chest or abdomen' or 'looseness or laxness around the chest or in the abdomen'. Anyway there are roughly 2 phases of breathing and in both phases there are many many ruupas or material phenomena. What the meditator has been contemplating is on these ruupas or material phenomena. As breathing is universal to all the sutta starts with breathing. In that section, The Buddha said, 'Bhikkhu, having gone to 'forest' or having gone to 'the foot of a tree' or having gone to 'a place of silence/ unoccupied silent place', sits with straightening trunk, putting mindfulness fore front, and remembering mindfully breathes in and mindfully breathes out. Commentaries explain in detail so that the learners can understand and can follow the Path. Among 4 different major posture 'sitting' is the best to support 'continuous effort' 'clear understanding' and 'mindfulness' . This does not mean other postures are not as good as 'sitting'. For beginners 'sitting' is the best. Some [or many] may argue that there is 'idea of choosing a particular place'. But what The Buddha was saying is to 'bhikkhus'. In initial practice it is important to grasp 'right understanding on what have been contemplating'. In the introductory speech in mahaasatipatthana sutta, The Buddha already said 'sa.mpajaana'. There are 4 sampajaana or 'clear comprehension'. 1. sa-atthaka sampajaana [clear comprehension of purpose] 2. sappaaya sampajanna [clear comprehension of suitability] 3. gocara sampajanna [clear comprehension of resort] 4. asammoha sampajanna [clear comprehension of non-delusion] The purpose here is nikkhama or non-worldly. So bhikkhu detaches from sensuous things or worldly things and stays in the forest or stay under tree or stay in unoccupied building or place. This is according to sa-atthaka sampajaana. Why quiet place or silent place? This is according to 'suitability' or sappaaya sampajaana. While ordinary lay people may be in householdly circumstances bhikkhus are not in such states. After introductory speech, The Buddha continued to the tetrad of breathing. This is for 'setting up the resort for the mind' or gocara sampajanna. When the meditator is at these resorts of ruupas arise from breathing activities when breathing is long, short, clearly perceiving almost all ruupas arise from breathing activities, clearly perceiving ruupas arise from tranquilised breathing activities, then he is said to be in clearly comprehending 'the resort' or 'the object of mind' or 'gocara' and this is 'gocara sampajaana'. When there are these 3 sampajaana of sa-atthaka, sappaaya, and gocara and the meditator is clearly perceiving ruupas [here] with full understanding then it is asammoha sampajaana or 'clear comprehension of non-delusion. So these 4 sampajaanas are already included in 'sitting meditation' or the description for 'anapana pabba' preached by The Buddha. We all perceive our self as self, no doubt. That self is not static. It is dynamic. The first dynamicity is breathing activities. Another dynamicity is bodily movements. Before going into 'detail movement' there are 4 major postures to support 'body' or 'self'. Apart from breathing mindfulness can be at these postures as they also produce ruupas or material phenomena. There always are changing body postures. In the morning in bed there is a change from lying to sitting up. Then sitting to standing, standing to walking, walking to standing, standing to sitting, sitting to lying and so on. At that particular time 'the mind is really no more at breathing'. Even if there is, the mind moves to 'changing posture'. So The Buddha preached on the 2nd section as 'iriyaa-patha pabba' or 'section on posture'. I construct 15 contemplations on posture. Actually all these 15 contemplations are in mahaasatipatthaana sutta. To come back to 'contemplation on going', The Buddha said, 'puna capara.m, bhikkhuave, bhikkhu gacchanto vaa gacchaami'ti pajaanaati'. Puna means 'again'. Here the context is that The Buddha preached on breathing section. Here The Buddha made a context to move on other section and 'again' or 'puna'. Ca means 'or'. Here bhikkhu can contemplate on breathing-related ruupas and then 'or'. Capara.m = Ca + apara.m Ca has been explained and it means 'or'. Apara means 'other way'. When the word 'aparo'/'aparaa' is the subject it is 'aparo'/'aparaa' and when it becomes the object of sentence it becomes 'aparam'/'apare' [singular/plural]. 'Puna caparam' means 'again, there is another way to contemplate'. And then The Buddha moved to 'bhikkhu gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. In the context this bhikkhu has already been described as 'idha bhikkhu' or 'the monk under supervision of The Buddha teachings'. Gacchanto vaa means 'when going'. Gacchaamii'ti = gacchaami + iti. Iti means 'such' 'this' 'like this'. The bhikkhu, when going, he clearly understand that he is going. As explained above this is not that simple. There is the word 'pajaanaati'. The word itself does not do anything. But it is 'pajaanaati'. Pajaanaati = pa + jaananti Pa means 'along' 'behind' 'after' 'in detail' 'through out' 'as it goes'. Jaananti means 'know' 'realize' 'understand'. Here pajaanaati means 'the bhikkhu clearly perceives all material phenomena as they arise when going'. This is contemplation on going. As the post here becomes a bit long 'contemplation on going' will be further explained in the coming post of 'satioatthaana (07). With Metta, Htoo Naing 48590 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Missionaries and So-Called 'Freedom of Religion' christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Justin > > I have heard it said that the greatest threat to the Dhamma is the wrong > view of those who profess to follow it. For example, if monks or > respected lay followers teach wrong dhamma, this is what will lead to > Buddhism's decline. > > I think there is a lot in this. There have probably always been outsiders > who promote other teachings among the followers of Dhamma, but it has > survived so far becuase of the faith and understanding of its followers. > The same will apply in the future. > > The best thing we can do to help preserve the teachings is to study the > teachings and try ourselves to understand the Buddha's message. > > What do you think? > > Jon Hello Jon, (Justin, Herman), all, I like your post Jon - bringing us back on-topic ... Dhammastudygroup is a "discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka .." So, a dhamma focus on this topic might be the Pasura Sutta http://tinyurl.com/2628m Many of us on this list spent most of our lives within Christianity before coming to the Dhamma, and many of us have relatives and dear friends who are devout practising Christians and who serve others with love, intelligence, self-sacrifice and compassion. So on this List at least, I think we have always shown respect and tolerance when mentioning Jesus Christ and those people within the fold of Christianity. With regard to Right Speech - the terms to use are 'Christians' not xtians; 'Jesus' not jezuz. metta Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 48591 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 4:16am Subject: Clinging and Thought Fabrications htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Tep and me set up a group called 'Universalanswer'. The group is for discussion on facts and we avoid technical terms especially Pali and Abhidhamma terms. May we invite you all and may we invite your friends who are not Buddhists. People of all beliefs are allowed to discuss. I forward the following message from that group 'Universalanswer'. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Discussions between Tep and Htoo at Universalanswer: Htoo wrote: Dear Universalanswer freinds and Tep, I think we are doing well in our discussion. What we have not done is promotion of this group. Anyway please see the discussion below. Friend always, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In Universalanswer@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Dear Friend Htoo and all - >Htoo: Yes. I think, I violate the rules of this forum. It seems like > Buddha philosophy. ... I would try in other way, next time. Tep wrote: Thank you for your promise that has encouraged me to continue to have a high hope that one day 'UniversalAnswer' will become one of the best religion discussion group that has members from all major and minor religions in the world come together to discuss universal questions about mankind. > >Tep: The Abhidhammic approach assumes existence of "mind >>and mental states". How do you know that this assumption is true? >>How would you show that they exist? > Htoo: > By simple observation. Right now we can see there are scripts on this > screen. > What is seen here is material phenomena. And what see is mental > phenomena. Because seers know what he sees. Here eyes see and > no other thing can see these scripts. Tep: That sounds like an assumption rather than a universal fact. A digital camera also "sees" images. Human seeing is different from the digital camera's seeing, of course. But it is not a proof that human has "mind" while digital camers do not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Digital camera just records. It is not called seeing. To be universalasnwer we are trying to have provable facts. But unlike science the matter of 'mind' cannot be recorded by physical materials. Here you may argue with 'brain-waves' or 'electroencephalogram'. But this is not the direct record of 'the mind' even though it may show what the mind activities are like. Examples are 'there would be slow waves when people sleep' and so on. I even read at a web site set up by certain American that 'Tibetan monk is in meditation and brain waves are recorded'. The site says that at a point 'there is no brain wave' and there is total stoppage when the monk himself is still alive and they are trying to prove 'cessation' of mind and 'cessation of feeling' 'cessation of perception'. But these are not very direct record. Because physical phenmomena are very very slow as compared to the phenomena of mind. Mind matters can only be sensed by 'mind'. Examples are mind-reading, recollections of past lives that are done by certain people of highly trained in 'mind matters'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: But the brain is not the initial seer. He constructs all the > necessary ideas so that final pictures are figured out. Anyway what > construct and what see, what know are all mental phenomena. Tep: That sounds like a hypothesis. How do you know (or can you proof) that the brain does not see or know? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is quite simple. Even secondary schoolboys may understand this phenomenon. Light waves travel through the media (say air media) and then they hit the outtermost very thin layer of tear that cover the front of eye-ball and after that layer the waves travel through cornea. At that very time, the brain is nothing to do with light waves. The brain only knows what is what or what the image is like when the data reach 'the brain area called Brodman's area 19 at situated at the occipital lobe of the brain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Mental phenomena is coupled with material phenomena. When there > is mental activity there arise material phenomena related to that > mental activity. Such matertial phenomena can never be seen in case > of robbots. > Robbots will never produce material phenomena that are seen in > coupling mental phenomena. Example is humanly laugh can never > be imitated by robbot. Tep: If you ask a third person (I hope that the"third person" is now reading our dialogue) s/he may tell you that what you explain above sounds like some proposed idea that is not universally accepted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hello, third person. May we invite you to participate in our discussion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: First of all, you may have to be clear about what "material phenomena" are and how they are produced by a "mind" not by the brain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 2 separate phenomena. Before going deep we have to define 'phenomena'. Phenomena is plural form of phenomenon' Phenomenon: [ noun ] = 1. observable fact 2. observable event Observation is done by 'mind'. Here the things that are observed may be 'mind' itself or its related matters or may also be things that are totally not related to mind. Phenomenon [noun] = 1. an object known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition 2. an aspect known through the senses 3. a temporal or spatiotemporal object of sensory experience 4. a fact of scientific interest susceptible of scientific description & explanation 5. an event of scientific interest 6. a significant fact 7. a significant occurrence 8. a significant event When the word 'phenomenon' is well digested then one will know what phenomenon means. When more than one, it is called 'phenomena'. There are 2 separate phenomena. They are 1. material phenomenon 2. mental phenomenon Mental phenomenon is all related to consciousness. Again, Oxford English dictionary explains 'consciousness' that it also includes 'feeling'. Because 'feelings' are also mental phenomena. We as human being can perceive senses when digital camera cannot perceive anything at all even though it receives image and can record it this is not perception. Perception of senses is 'mental phenomena'. All kinds of feeling are 'mental phenomena'. All kinds of consciousness are 'mental phenomena'. All kinds of 'mental activities that are not feeling, perception are also 'mental phenomena'. These mental activities are 'constructions' or 'mental formations' to set up 'understanding' 'realization' 'knowledge' etc etc. Perception and feeling are also mental activities. But they are not 'constructive mental phenomena' or 'formative mental phenomena'. So regarding mental phenomena there are 1. feeling mental phenomena (this is mental acitvity but not construction or formation ). 2. perceiving mental phenomena (this is mental activity but not construction or formation). 3. consciousness mental phenomena (this is mental activity but not construction or formation) 4. constructive or formative mental activity (this is mental activity but it is not feeling and it is not perceiving). If there are other phenomena then all those phenomena they are not mental phenomena are material phenomena. Examples; Light a candle. There is light. When there is no more paraffin or thread the light cease to exist. It is a material phenomen. It is also physical. Hit a bell. There is sound. It sometimes that sound cease to hum or tingle. This sound is material phenomena. It is also physical. Cut a kind of fruit that have sweety smell. There arises sweety smell. At sometimes when that fruit becomes stale the sweety smell vanishes. This smell is material phenomena. It is also physical phenomena. Put sugar on the salivated tongue. There arise 'sweet taste'. When it is swallowed and tongue becomes dry there is no tatse on the tongue and taste vanishes. It is material phenomena. It is also physical. Touch water. There is coolness. Touch iron stone. There is headness. Squeeze soft ball. There is pressure. These are material phenomena. They are also physical. Still there are material phenomena that are not physical. This does not mean they are 'mental phenomena'. Not physical means they cannot be sensed by 5 physical senses. They can be realized through thinking, which is mental phenomena while the thing that are thought are material phenomena while they are not physical phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is a "human laugh" material phenomenon or mental? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I need to be careful answering this question. Because there might arise misunderstanding. The act 'human laugh' is originated from mental phenomena. When someone becomes amused he or she laughs. When he or she is laughing someone may see him or her. In that seeing there are 2 separate material phenomena. 1. one is 'the appearance of laughing' that has shape, form, light, and colour. Example 'closed eyes' widely open mouth with appearing of all teeth and shaking of body and face. 2. another material phenomena is 'the act laugh itself'. It is gesture. Gesture is only produced by living being. Living things like tree cannot produce 'gesture'. This gesture is material phenomena and it is based on what is seen or visual object even though it has the origin, which is mental phenomena. Here it is the main difference that digital camera or robbot cannot imitate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: By the way I have heard synthesized machine (a toy) sounds that are laughing to me, without any question. I only know that a robot does not have either a brain or a mind (but I still am not sure what "mind" is or where to find it). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When you listen my voice in person there you can sense a phenomenon. But when you hear my voice through a phone, it is no more my voice in person and it is electronic data that has been changed into sound and it is just sound. If you hear voice in person you also perceive another material phenomena through mind not through ear even though the voice is carried as sound through ear to be heard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: How would you prove that your laughing is NOT produced by your brain? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Possible danger in the answer lies in the word 'laughing'. Because laughing means more than a physical activity. All physical activities at body are related to nervous system. So you might not agree what I am going to answer. Mind is mental phenomena. Brain is physical phenomena. Brain do not produce 'mental phenomena'. If I say this again you may confuse. Because in bioscience all mental phenomena are produced by brain. But in actual sense brain is brain and it is physical phenomena and not mental phenomena. Mental phenomena always have to depend on material phenomena. Normally and usually mental phenomena cannot arise without coupling with material phenomena. What brain produce is just 'physical activities of laughing action' and no more than that. But what mind produces is more than 'physical activities of laughing. Example; your toy may laugh. There does exist physical acitvities of laughing. But there is no material phenomena that are seen in living beings. Because in living beings material-phenomena and mental- phenomena are coupled. Friend always, Htoo 48592 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 4:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 472) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In akusala sangaha or in the stock of unwholesome dhamma there are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or out-flowing intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood of akusala dhamma) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bondage) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds ) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping ) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, keeping back) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) The first three stocks of dhamma have been explained in the previous posts. The fourth stock of akusala dhamma or unwholesome dhamma is gantha dhamma. 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) Gantha means 'bond' 'fetter' 'trammel''knot'. This dhamma binds beings to three worlds namely kaama loka or sensuous sphere, ruupa loka or fine material sphere, and aruupa loka or non-material sphere or immaterial sphere. The essence of dhamma in the first three stock of akusala dhamma is the same. That is they are lobha cetasika appearing twice, ditthi cetasika and moha cetasikas. But in this new stock of akusala dhamma the essence is not the same with the previous three stocks. There are 4 gantha dhamma. They are 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha 2. byaapaada kaayagantha 3. silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha This gantha dhamma is a knot that bind beings to loka or pancupaadaan- akkhandhas. Because of this gantha dhamma beings have to be reborn in senssuous sphere repeatedly. Abhijjhaa means 'covetousness' 'avariciousness'. It is inclination to possession of others' properties or goods. The essence of this kaayagantha is lobha cetasika. Kaaya means 'body' and gantha means 'knot'. So kaayagantha means 'knot that is tied to the body'. Kaayagantha is like body-tie, body-bond. It catches beings as a net of trap. When beings enter that net of the trap abhijjhaa-kaayagantha they cannot overcome and escape from that net. The net of the trap, abhijjhaa kaayagantha is complex entanglement and once beings are in there, it is almost impossible to escape from that entangled net of trap of abhijjhaa kaayagantha. But once there arise anaagaami magga naana or 'non-returning path- knowledge' this knowledge cuts up all the net threads and releases beings from the trap of abhijjhaa kaayagantha. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 48593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong perception nilovg Hi Howard. A good reminder. We may notice paramattha dhammas such as hardness or metta. But they are not understood as just rupa or just nama. It is still my hardness or the hardness of my body, or my metta, even when we do not expressively think it is mine. Ignorance darkens what is experienced, it does not know the true nature. When sati and even a beginning paññaa arises, the dhamma that is experienced is illuminated. The wrong perception gradually wears off. At the moment of mindfulness of a characteristic of reality, there is not wrong perception, but it is only one moment that falls away. However, it is accumulated and can arise again. In this way understanding grows. We are not in a hopeless situation. We can gain confidence in the Path. Nina. op 07-08-2005 19:57 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > The hardness we cognize > is not the mere hardness we directly experience. Our sa~n~na is defiled, even > as it recognizes paramattha dhammas. Ignorance "has its way with us". We are > not even close to being free of it, it seems to me. 48594 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 6:23am Subject: nama and rupa distinguishable, part 2. to Howard. characteristics. nilovg Hi Howard, When someone asks me a question it helps to make things clearer to myself. Lodewijk:what are characteristics? Howard: < I'm not clear here as to what you mean by one "characteristic" at a time.> ---------- Howard: > I agree there is but one arammana at a time. At a moment that hardness is the > objective content, visual object is not. I certainly believe that. ----- N: I have to explain more about sati of the level of satipatthana. This is a difficult subject for me. I often confuse sati and thinking. Sati can be mindful of one dhamma at a time, and this has its own characteristic. A characteristic of a reality can be directly known by paññaa at the moment sati is mindful, non-forgetful of it. A characteristic of dhamma is not an abstract notion, it is real, it appears now at this moment. There is no need to think about it. When we meet someone we may think of that person, his appearance, the way he expresses himself by speech and action. But what is the citta like that thinks? Is it citta with anger, or with metta? We are absorbed in situations or events when we think of the person we meet. When sati arises it can be aware of anger or mettaa, it is directly aware of those characteristics of dhammas, one at a time, and at such moments more understanding of them can develop. Is there not a difference between the moments we are absorbed in thinking of a situation, a person, and the moment there is mindfulness, non-forgetfulness of only one dhamma, so that it is known as dhamma, a nama or a rupa. We begin to understand what dhamma is. The three general characteristics cannot be penetrated immediately, first different dhammas have to be directly known as nama and as rupa. We should by no means try to know the difference between nama and rupa, then we are merely thinking. Some people believe that they have to try to know the difference between seeing and visible object, hearing and sound and take them in pairs. This is not the way. Sati can become used to the different characteristics of dhammas that appear and in this way understanding develops. Sati and understanding perform their functions: sati is mindful, non-forgetful of whatever dhamma appears and at the same time understanding of that dhamma grows. It is the task of understanding to reach different stages of insight. When the time is ripe, any nama or rupa can appear through the mind-door, they do not have to be known in pairs. I used to think in that way. It is difficult to know the difference between sati and thinking. Sati arises with kusala citta. At that moment there is not the darkness of delusion, not the clumsiness of akusala. There is no rigidity but there is alertness, lightness, wise attention, a degree of detachment, alobha, confidence in kusala and the Path the Buddha taught. We can learn the difference between the moment we are forgetful and the moment we wake up with sati. There can be a beginning of understanding of just one characteristic at a time, such as anger, sound, hardness. In the Discourse on the Elephant Footprint (M.N.) we read about a monk who is abused. He understands:<'This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on contact.'> He realizes dhammas as impersonal elements, he realizes their true nature. Here we see that when sati arises dhammas can be seen as impersonal elements. This does not mean that we should force ourselves not to think of people and events. We can lead our daily life very naturally, otherwise there would be a cramped state of mind. The satipatthanasutta shows us that any aspect of daily life can bring us back to reality: there can be awareness of nama and rupa that are internal or external. Another person's cittas and feelings can be objects of our thinking, and then we can be reminded that also our thinking is only a conditioned element. The Buddha often spoke about conventional realities when he helped people in showing them that these point to ultimate truths. The impermanence of human life can remind us of momentary death of citta at this moment. There are many moments of thinking in our life. Also thinking can be realized as naama. It is conditioned, it arises. There is no need to push it away or force ourselves not to think of concepts. We cannot avoid it anyway. Lodewijk remarked that one can really understand what sati of the level of satipatthana is when it has arisen. And even then it is difficult to explain to others what it is. Kh Sujin said, when sati has arisen you know its characteristic and then it can be developed. I used to find this a vicious circle, but now I understand that it does not help to reason about it. Logic does not help. Listening and considering Dhamma are the conditions for its arising, and it will perform its function of being aware. Nobody in the world can cause its arising. Nina. Nina. 48595 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditionality. second stage. nilovg Hi Herman and Howard, op 08-08-2005 00:49 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > In a message dated 8/7/05 6:16:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@... writes: > I am wondering of late whether there can be any understanding of > conditionality that is not conceptual? Do the Suttas suggest anywhere > that there can be "direct knowing" of conditionality? It seems to me > that any understanding of conditionality must be based in part on past > experience. > ========================= Howard: Well, I think that conditionality and other relations, while not > traditional "paramattha dhammas," are realities, and that a trained mind is > capable of > directly knowing them. But for us, I think it must be an inferential knowing. ----- Nina: Paññaa of the second stage of tender insight knows directly, without thinking, nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. Just now it is hard for us, ignorant as we are, to imagine this. Anyway, first nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa, without having to think about them. Herman, as to pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, I cannot find texts, but most important is understanding that they denote different phases in the development of understanding. The Buddha explained these in the suttas, such as the sutta about listening and drawing near, considering the truth, which leads to its realization. We have to know that theoretical understanding is different from direct understanding. Nina. 48596 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 9:47am Subject: Re: Definition of 'Mind' ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Ven. Samahita (and Nina) - I appreciate your continuing the mind discussion with me. > Bhikkhu Samahita : > > If mind is the 'computer', consciousness is the 'electricity'... > > All which happens in computer is based on electricity. > All which happens in mind is based on consciousness. > Tep: In your analogy the computer is dead if electrical flow stops. The implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. In AN X.51, Sacitta Sutta the Blessed One said: "Even if a monk is not skilled in the ways of the minds of others (not skilled in reading the minds of others), he should train himself: 'I will be skilled in reading my own mind.' The Buddha recommended that the monk read the mind as follows: 'Do I usually remain covetous or not? With thoughts of ill will or not? Overcome by sloth & drowsiness or not? Restless or not? Uncertain or gone beyond uncertainty? Angry or not? With soiled thoughts or unsoiled thoughts? With my body aroused or unaroused? Lazy or with persistence aroused? Unconcentrated or concentrated?' The above variety of mind states seems to indicate that each 'mind state' is the same as citta(consciousness) plus the various cetasikas that color it. The sutta also leaves open the possibility of pure citta (or consciousness alone) without any cetasika, i.e. the citta that is empty of any mental fabrications (citta-sankhara). So, can we say that citta alone is the pure mind ? Isn't this "pure mind" the end result of our mental development? Warm regards, Tep ======= 48597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Botanical Gardens -metta and clinging nilovg Hi James, op 08-08-2005 02:47 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...:> > But in between moments of >> metta there can be clinging: it feels so good to have metta, I > should have >> more of it. > > James: Nicely put. Well, then in that case it isn't metta receiving > the clinging, it is feelings and/or ego. Metta is not to blame for > that, the clinging would occur to feelings and/or ego with or without > the experience of metta. ------ N: The feeling connected with mettaa is pure kusala, it is not coarse like the feeling connected with clinging. Both metta and the accompanying feeling can be objects of clinging after the metta has fallen away. Some texts: we read in the Patthana (Conditional Relations, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Ch, § 405): Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faulty state (akusala dhamma) by object-condition. Taking kusala for self is also a form of clinging, it goes together with clinging. We are likely to take kusala for my kusala. ------ >> All dhammas can be objects of clinging except nibbaana and the lokuttara >> cittas that experience nibbaana. > > James: Yes, I would agree that one cannot cling to nibbana, it is the > opposite of clinging. However, following your logic of moments > in-between, it is possible for a sotapanna to cling to lokuttara > cittas that experience nibbana, once they have fallen away. Since the > sotapanna hasn't eliminated all traces of clinging, there could be a > clinging to that experience of nibbana and a desire to have it happen > again, right? Just wondering. ------ N: No. Nibbana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be object-condition for cittas rooted in attachment. We can find this also in the Patthana. I think of tanhaa: sensuous clinging, clinging to becoming and clinging to non-becoming. Sensuous clinging has as object sense objects, also called insignificant objects. Lokuttara dhammas are not among them. Bhaava tanha: this includes clinging to the results of jhaana. vibhaava tanhaa: annihilation belief. The lokuttara cittas, also those of the sotaapanna are the very conditions leading to freedom from the cycle. They cannot be conditions for more clinging. Nina. 48598 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:06am Subject: Cambodian lectures nilovg Dear friends, Tonight I read this part from Kh Sujin's lectures in Cambodia to Lodewijk. **** Nina. 48599 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 8, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - A question nilovg Hi Herman and Howard, Herman; I am still not clear on why it is said that cittas fall away quicker > than rupas, but it is not really that important. > --------------------------------------- N: Think of one rupa such as visible object that is experienced by a series of cittas. That rupa has not fallen away yet. ----- Herman: Also, have I understood rightly that it is said that body-door process > and the following mind-door process have the SELFSAME rupa as object? ------ N: That rupa has just fallen away. But the mind-door processes of cittas follow so soon after the sense-door process, we cannot imagine how fast. Therefore that rupa is still reckoned as present. The Commentaries make a distinction: it is not a concept but it is a not so definiable object (navattabbam aaramma.na). Sarah and I discussed this. ------ > Howard: > Here's a commonsense approach to the matter: While experincing a rupa - > say hardness, your state of mind might change from concentrated to distracted > or change in some other manner. What that would amount to is a cetasika > change. > Any time there is a cetasika change, it is a new mindstate. > --------------------------------------- N: Yes, but concentration does not change to distraction in the same process of cittas. Seeing is a rootless vipaakacitta, there are not the cetasikas which are roots accompanying it. Thus, no lobha, dosa, or moha, no alobha, adosa or amoha. Shortly after seeing there are arise in the same process javana cittas that are kusala or akusala, thus, accompanied by roots. You may notice like or dislike. That is different from seeing. However, cittas are very fast and we do not know them precisely from moment to moment. The Buddha said in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Ones, Ch V .I,9) : Nina.