49200 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:56pm Subject: The 24 Conditional Relations! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Charles DaCosta wrote: >This sounds like a DO relationship to me (forward and reverse relationship). The question of conditional relations is quite extensively treated in the 7 vol: Patthana. _The 24 modes of conditional relations in Buddhism are:_ 1. Root conditional relation: /hetu paccaya / 2. Object: /árammana / 3. Predominance: /adhipati / 4. Priority: /anantara / 5. Contiguity: /samanantara / 6. Co-nascence: /sahajáta / 7. Mutuality: /aññamañña / 8. Support: /nissaya / 9. Decisive Support: /upanissaya / 10. Pre-nascene: /purejáta / 11. Post-nascene: /pacchájáta / 12. Repitition: /ásevana / 13. Karma: /kamma / 14. Karma-result: /vipáka / 15. Nutriment: /áhára / 16. Faculty: /indriya / 17. Jhána: /jhána / 18. Path:/ magga / 19. Associaton: /sampayutta / 20. Dissociation: /vippayutta / 21. Presence: /atthi / 22. Absence: /natthi / 23. Disappearance: /vigata / 24. Non-disappearance: /avigata / (1) Root-conditional relation /(hetu-paccaya)/ is that conditional relation that resembles the root of a tree. Just as a tree rests on its root, and remains alive only as long as its root is not destroyed, similarly all karmically wholesome and unwholesome mental states are entirely dependent on the simultaneity and presence of their respective roots, i.e, of greed /(lobha), /hate / (dosa),/ delusion /(moha),/ or greedlessness /(alobha),/ hatelessness /(adosa),/ undeludedness /(amoha)./ For the definition of these 6 roots, s. múla. "The roots are a conditional relation by way of root for the (mental) phenomena associated with a root, and for the corporeal phenomena produced thereby (e.g. for bodily expression)" . (2) Object-conditional relation /(árammana-paccaya) /is called something which, as object, forms the conditional relation for consciousness and mental phenomena. Thus, the physical object of sight consisting in colour and light ('light-wave'), is the necessary conditional relation and the sine qua non for the arising of eye-consciousness /(cakkhu-viññána),/ etc.; sound ('sound wave') for ear-consciousness /(sotá-viññána),/ etc.; further, any object arising in the mind is the conditional relation for mind-consciousness /(mano-viññána). /The mind-object may be anything whatever, corporeal or mental, past, present or future, real or imaginary. (3) Predominance-conditional relation /(adhipati-paccaya)/ is the term for 4 things, on the preponderance and predominance of which are dependent the mental phenomena associated with them, namely: concentrated intention /(chanda,/ ), energy /(viriya,/ ), consciousness /(citta)/ and investigation/ (vímamsá)./ In one and the same state of consciousness, however, only one of these 4 phenomena can be predominant at a time. "Whenever such phenomena as consciousness and mental concomitants are arising by giving preponderance to one of these 4 things, then this phenomenon is for the other phenomena a conditional relation by way of predominance" (Patth.). Cf. /iddhi-páda./ (4-5) Proximity and contiguity (or immediacy)-conditional relation/ (anantara / and /samanantara-paccaya)/ - both being identical - refer to any state of consciousness and mental phenomena associated with them, which are the conditional relations for the immediately following stage in the process of consciousness. For example, in the visual process, eye-consciousness is for the immediately following mind element - performing the function of receiving the visible object - a conditional relation by way of contiguity; and so is this mind-element for the next following mind-consciousness element, performing the function of investigating the object, etc. Cf. /viññána-kicca./ / / (6) Co-nascence condition /(sahajáta-paccaya),/ i.e. conditional relation by way of simultaneous arising, is a phenomenon that for another one forms, a conditional relation in such a way that, simultaneously with its arising, also the other thing must arise. Thus, for instance, in one and the same moment each of the 4 mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness) is for the 3 other groups a conditional relation by way of co-nascence or co-arising; or again each of the 4 physical elements (solid, liquid, heat, motion) is such a conditional relation for the other 3 elements. Only at the moment of conception in the mother's womb does corporeality (physical base of mind) serve for the 4 mental groups as a conditional relation by way of conascence. (7) conditional relation by way of mutuality/ (aññámañña-paccaya). /All the just mentioned associated and co-nascent mental phenomena, as well as the 4 physical elements, are, of course, at the same time also conditional relation by way of mutuality, "just like three sticks propped up one by another." The 4 mental groups are one for another a conditional relation by way of mutuality. So also are the 4 elements, and also mentality and corporeality at the moment of conception. (8) Support-conditional relation/ (nissaya-paccaya). /This conditional relation refers either to a pre-nascent (s. 10) or co-nascent (s. 6) phenomenon which is aiding other phenomena in the manner of a foundation or base, just as the trees have the earth as their foundation, or as the oil-painting rests on the canvas. In this way, the 5 sense-organs and the physical base of the mind are for the corresponding 6 kinds of consciousness a prenascent, i.e. previously arisen, conditional relation by way of support. Further all co-nascent (s. 6) phenomena are mutually (s. 7) conditional relationed by each other by way of support. (9) Decisive-support (or inducement) conditional relation /(upanissaya-paccaya)/ is threefold, namely (a) by way of object /(árammanúpanissaya-paccaya),/ (b) by way of proximity /(anantarúpanissaya),/ (c) natural decisive support /(pakatupanissaya)./ These conditional relations act as strong inducement or cogent reason. (a) Anything past, present or future, corporeal or mental, real or imaginary, may, as object of our thinking, become a decisive support, or strong inducement, to moral, immoral or karmically neutral states of mind. Evil things, by wrong thinking about them, become an inducement to immoral life; by right thinking, an inducement to moral life. But good things may be an inducement not only to similarly good things, but also to bad things, such as self-conceit, vanity, envy, etc. (b;) is identical with proximity conditional relation (No. 4). (c) Faith, virtue, etc., produced in one's own mind, or the influence of climate, food, etc., on one's body and mind, may act as natural and decisive support-conditional relations. Faith may be a direct and natural inducement to charity, virtue to mental training, etc.; greed to theft, hate to murder; unsuitable food and climate to ill-health; friends to spiritual progress or deterioration. (10) Pre-nascence-conditional relation /(purejáta-paccaya)/ refers to something previously arisen, which forms a base for something arising later on. For example, the 5 physical sense-organs and the physical base of mind, having already arisen at the time of birth, form the conditional relation for the consciousness arising later, and for the mental phenomena associated therewith. (11) Post-nascence-conditional relation/ (pacchá-játa-paccaya) /refers to consciousness and the phenomena therewith associated, because they are - just as is the feeling of hunger- a necessary conditional relation for the preservation of this already arisen body. (12) Repetition-condition/al /relation/ (ásevana-paccaya) /refers to the karmical consciousness, in which each time the preceding impulsive moments /(javana-citta,/ ) are for all the succeeding ones a conditional relation by way of repetition and frequency, just as in learning by heart, through constant repetition, the later recitation becomes gradually easier and easier. (13) Karma-conditional relation /(kamma-paccaya)./ The pre-natal karma (i.e karma-volitions, /kamma-cetaná,/ in a previous birth) is the generating conditional relation (cause) of the 5 sense-organs, the fivefold sense-consciousness, and the other karma-produced mental and corporeal phenomena in a later birth. - Karmical volition is also a conditional relation by way of karma for the co-nascent mental phenomena associated therewith, but these phenomena are in no way karma-results. (14) Karma-result-condition/al relation (vipáka-paccaya)./ The karma-resultant 5 kinds of sense-consciousness are a conditional relation by way of karma-result for the co-nascent mental and corporeal phenomena. (15) Nutriment-conditional relation /(áhára-paccaya)./ For the 4 nutriments, s. /áhára./ (16) Faculty-conditional relation /(indriya-paccaya)./ This conditional relation applies to 20 faculties /(indriya,/ ), leaving out No. 7 and 8 from the 22 faculties. Of these 20 faculties, the 5 physical sense-organs (1 - 5), in their capacity as faculties, form a conditional relation only for incorporeal phenomena (eye-consciousness etc.); physical vitality (6) and all the remaining faculties, for the co-nascent mental and corporeal phenomena. (17) Jhána-conditional relation /(jhána-paccaya)/ is a name for the 7 so-called jhána-factors, as these form a conditional relation to the co-nascent mental and corporeal phenomena, to wit: (1) thought-conception /(vitakka), /(2) discursive thinking /(vicára),/ (3) interest/ (píti), /(4) joy /(sukha),/ (5) sadness /(domanassa), /(6) indifference /(upekkhá), /(7) concentration /(samádhi)./ 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 are found in 4 classes of greedy consciousness (s. Tab. I. 22-25); 1, 2, 5, 7 in hateful consciousness (ib. 30, 31); 1, 2, 6, 7 in the classes of deluded consciousness (ib. 32, 33). This conditional relation does not only apply to /jhána/ alone, but also to the general intensifying ('absorbing') impact of these 7 factors. (18) Path-conditional relation /(magga-paccaya) /refers to the 12 path-factors, as these are for the karmically wholesome and unwholesome mental phenomena associated with them, a way of escape from this or that mental constitution, namely: (1) knowledge/ (paññá = sammáditthi, /right understanding), (2) (right or wrong) thought-conception/ (vitakka), /(3) right speech /(sammá-vácá), /(4) right bodily action /(sammá-kammanta), /(5) right livelihood /(sammá-ájíva),/ (6) (right or wrong) energy /(viriya),/ (7) (right or wrong) mindfulness /(sati),/ (8) (right or wrong) concentration /(samádhi),/ (9) wrong views /(miccháditthi),/ (10) wrong speech /(micchá-vácá),/ (11) wrong bodily action/ (micchá-kammanta), /(12) wrong livelihood /(micchá-ájíva)./ Cf. /magga./ (19) Association-conditional relation /(sampayutta-paccaya)/ refers to the co-nascent (s. 6) and mutually (s. 7) conditioned 4 mental groups / (khandha),/ "as they aid each other by their being associated, by having a common physical base, a common object, and by their arising and disappearing simultaneously" (Patth. Com.). (20) Dissociation-conditional relation /(vippayutta-paccaya)/ refers to such phenomena as aid other phenomena by not having the same physical base (eye, etc.) and objects. Thus corporeal phenomena are for mental phenomena, and conversely, a conditional relation by way of dissociation, whether co-nascent or not. (2l) Presence-conditional relation /(atthi-paccaya)/ refers to a phenomenon - being pre-nascent or co-nascent - which through its presence is a conditional relation for other phenomena. This conditional relation applies to the conditions Nos. 6, 7, 8, 10, 11. (22) Absence-conditional relation /(natthi-paccaya)/ refers to consciousness, etc., which has just passed, and which thus forms the necessary conditional relation for the immediately following stage of consciousness by giving it an opportunity to arise. Cf. No. 4. (23) Disappearance-conditional relation /(vigata-paccaya)/ is identical with No. 22. (24) Non-disappearance-conditional relation /(avigata-paccaya)/ is identical with No. 21. These 24 conditions should be known thoroughly for a detailed understanding of that famous formula of the dependent origination /(paticcasamuppáda,/) Source: Buddhist Dictionary: http://www.what-buddha-said.org/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic_idx.htm Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 49201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,186 / Time Concept & Ultimate Realities nilovg Hi Tep, yes, as Larry says, more details of each of the four aspects of extent, etc. This para is an intro to the following ones. op 24-08-2005 05:09 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Is 'past, future, and present' referring to states of the same materiality, > or is it denoting several different materialities that arise and dissolve at > the appropriate time instants? --------- N: Referring to the five khandhas now. They are arising and falling away just now while you are asking, wondering, writing and reading on the screen. All the time this happens: what is present falls away and is then past. What was future becomes present because of many intricate conditions. Then it becomes past. ------- T: If the latter case is true, how can different > things apprear as same solid thing through time? ------ N: Because of our ignorance dhammas seem to appear as same solid thing. ------- T: In what ways does 'continuity' relate to 'period' and 'moment'? In fact, > how does the time concept affect the ultimate reality? ----- N: See above, it will be dealt with next. Time concept does not affect the ultimate reality, but it denotes the arising and falling away. Because of a concurrence of several conditioning factors a dhamma arises at a certain time, but it has to fall away and then it has become past. Nina. 49202 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? dhamma_service Hi Robert, You wrote: [snip] To me it is surprising that apparently some Thervada monks claim that there are intermediate states lasting days or whatever [between death and rebirth], it is a type of self and permanence view that believes states can last. Monks in ancient times who brought such an idea up in ancient times were paravadi (outside sect), not theravada. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------- Fk: so if I understand what you're saying, you believe the paravadi monks are claiming that after death, there is an intermediate state where a permanent soul-like thing arises for several days, and then that permanent thing after those several days elapse ceases to be a permanent thing and then switches back into an impermanent kammic propensity/relinking consciousness that takes rebirth? Somehow I doubt that's what they're claiming. How would you ever expect fruitful dialogue to commence if you characterize their view as a straw man argument and then on top of that insult them by calling them paravadi (akin to Mahayanists derisively referring to theravadins as hinayanists)? I could understand calling their view heretical or unbuddhist or sacrilegious if we were talking about a radical departure from the basic tenets of Buddhism. For example, if I were to claim that the Buddha really didn't teach rebirth, that would be radical. If I claimed the Buddha taught that it is possible to enjoy worldly sense pleasures without craving and attachment arising, that would be radical. If a radical view like that were presented, I could understand that being labeled as paravadi/heretical/etc. But the issue we're talking about is a minor point where the pali canon seems to leave a little bit of room open for interpretation. It's not like anyone here is trying to deny rebirth. And the reason they support antarabhava is because they've opened their divine eye and witnessed it for themselves. Have you opened your divine eye and saw evidence to the contrary, that every single death you observed, the rebirth consciousness is instantaneous? If so, you've earned the right to start calling some people paravadi. If not, it's probably prudent to just say "I and my bible disagree with that view" and leave it at that. It's perfectly fine to voice differences of opinion and give compelling reasonings to justify it, but there's no need for this business of "You are unorthodox heretic scum because my bible says you're wrong." With the various types of beings that are known to science, beings born through womb, or eggs, bacteria, viruses, artifical insemination, caterpillars metamorphosing into moths (what would you call that in between state? Don't answer, it's rhetorical), jelly fish where light passes through their body, hungry ghosts, hell beings, fine material devas, immaterial brahmas, it seems rather unlikely that each type of sentient being has the same exact clear cut instantaneous rebirth linking consciousness at death immediately transferring into the next mode of rebirth. Are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? At the time of your death, at the moment science recognizes you as clinically dead, go ahead and let them cremate you or harvest your organs for the organ donor program. If you and your bible are correct, that rebirth is instaneous, then no worries. But if the proponents of the antarabhava are correct, i.e. many cases rebirth is instantenous but in many cases, it can last an indeterminate # of days, up to 40(?), then while they're harvesting your organs from your dead body in antarabhava, with the ticket to a heavenly deva realm in your hand, suddenly the excruciating pain of organ harvesting puts you into an angry, confused, ,distressed state of mind and you miss the bus to deva-realm and instead end up as a cockroach. That would suck. Are you willing to make that bet? Me, I'm going to play it safe. No one goes near my body for AT LEAST a month after I die. I happen to believe the antrabhava view makes a lot of sense, but even if I didn't, I would still play it safe. When I sell my current house and buy my new house, there's a usual period of 30 days escrow. But that's negotiable. They might offer me some extra cash to close escrow in 2 weeks, or 1 week, or 2 days. During the escrow, some loose ends are being tied. In this in between state when I'm not out of my old house, not in the new house. I might stay at a friend's house, I might go to a hotel, I might camp out on the beach. The deal might fall through if the termite inspection fails, or a hurricane wipes out the new house. There's a lot possibilities in this antarabhava state between my two houses. Yet, you're insisting that there is no escrow period between when I live in my old house and new house, that at the moment my old house is officially considered "sold", I'm instantaneously residing at my new house. And if I try to tell you that actually, I'm staying at a hotel for the 30 days in between, you tell me that I've just become a permanent resident of the hotel for eternity and I'm a lying heretic because your bible says that escrow is instantaneous that immediately after my old house is sold, I'm residing in my new house? If that's what you want to believe, so be it. But at least show some courtesy and abstain from using pejorative terms and building silly straw man arguments. -fk 49203 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 501 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Communication is the flow of idea from one individual to another and vice versa. There are many types of communication. And there are many types of communication that there are both parties at the time of communication. There also are communication that there are not both parties but only one party at a time when the communication cycle is started or is completed. Example; The Buddha left messages. These messages are consumed by consumers and when they understand the messages the communication cycle is completed. Whatever it is when everything is examined the essence will be one of these 4 dhamma of citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factors, rupa or non-conscious things/ materials or matters, and nibbana. Citta is consciousness. But consciousness is more than citta. Oxford dictionary says consciousness includes feeling. This is along Buddhism concept. Because citta includes vedana or feeling. But paramattha dhamma citta or 'ultimate reality citta is not feeling'. Feeling or any other accompaniments of citta are called mental factors or cetasika. There are rupa or non-conscious matters that are materials or matters. Rupa have appearances when naama do not have any appearances. There are 28 rupas, 52 cetasikas, 1 nibbana and 1 citta as ultimate realities. There are dhamma that are friends or peers to each other and they have similar implications. These stocks of dhamma are peer stocks or stocks of friend or 'missaka sangaha'. There are 7 stocks of such dhamma. They are 1. hetu or root 2. jhaananga or absorption-factor 3. magganga or path-factor 4. indriya or faculty 5. bala or power 6. adhipati or predominance 7. aahaara or nutriment Each stock is nothing but a stock of dhamma that have similar qualities. They may be citta or cetasika or rupa. When dhamma with similar qualities are compiled there are 7 stocks of such dhamma with peer qualities. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49204 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:23am Subject: dhamma soup for the feeling (part 2) dhamma_service If one feels pain, but knows not feeling's nature, bent toward hate, he will not find deliverance. 49205 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok2 egberdina Hi Sukinder, Thank you for sharing your reflections on this. I also appreciated your good humour. I wonder, is it panna that understands that it wasn't the Buddha who taught this theory of citta-vitthi :-) I am happy to accept, for myself, that nothing at all can be said about the persistence or lack of persistence of rupas, given that namas are the lowest common denominator in the equation. Kind Regards Herman > > > Sarah wrote: > - Herman's question on how citta experiencing rupa can know it's same > rupa > experienced by previous cittas. Sukin valliantly took up Herman's 'cause' > and good qus on this...because the Buddha knew and taught the details:- > /, > otherwise it's 'I' :-/, understanding the difference between the Buddha's > knowledge and others :-/....what else, Sukin? > > I remember only vaguely how the discussion went and there were some > thoughts that arose later on, so what I say will be a mixture of these. > > Jon brought up the question and I related this to the 17 citta per rupa > theory, and so there were some diversions. :-/ For example I asked to > the effect, "Why 17?" To this K. Sujin rightly responded by suggesting > that if the theory stated that it was 7 or 5 instead of 17, the > same `questioning' would occur. So since it was the Buddha who gave > this figure, we should just accept it. > I said that I did not question it, which of course does not mean that I > attach any great importance to the particular figure. Betty suggested > that when the panna was developed enough, then the proof would > happen. But I was not particularly interested in the kind of proof that is > projected into the future. I wanted to be convinced on the `intellectual' > level, now! > I therefore wanted an explanation, perhaps, in terms of each citta in the > series being exactly as it is and how each one of them *must* have the > same rupa as object. I understand why a rupa must arise *before* > sense cognition in order that it might become the object, and from this > one can at least infer that rupas lasts `longer' than citta. But I also > thought that this was not enough to convince Herman, and ended up > having to conclude that all that is needed is for Herman to read and > have more faith in the Abhidhamma. ;-) > > On the original question of "how citta experiencing rupa can know it's > same rupa experienced by previous cittas", my answer is that it doesn't! > Citta in a series knows only the object. It does not `understand'. The > mode of `knowing' of citta is different from panna. It is the latter which > performs the function of understanding. The level of this understanding > is accumulated and there is no limit to this, the maximum degree being > that of a Sammasambuddha. So yes, if the Buddha says that it is 17 > moments of citta per rupa, then it must be so!! ;-) > > Thank you Sarah, Jon, Chris, for coming over to Bkk. and allowing for a > few hours of excellent discussions, the level of which is so much higher > than the Saturday discussion us frivolous Bangkokians usually maintain. > I had wanted to suggest to both of you to now come and live in Bkk > instead of Hkk. ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukinder > > 49206 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Ken H. (and Matheesha and Htoo) - > > I read your message # 49083 (a dialogue with Matheesha) and am > impressed by the following remark. > > KH : If I understand correctly, lokuttara jhana is a synonym for Eightfold- > path-consciousness. Eight-fold-path-consciousness, (which is > supramundane) is always accompanied by an intensely strong form of > samadhi-cetasika (at a level found in the first jhana or higher). And > so Eightfold-path-consciousness is sometimes called lokuttara jhana. > Simple as that! :-) > > Tep: I , in general, agree with your linking of the "eightfold path > consciousness" with "strong form of samadhi-cetasika". However, it is > not clear in your message whether one may make the following > inferences. Do you care to respond? > > 1. All kinds of Stream-winner must have attained at least the 1st rupa- > jhana. > 2. Samma-ditthi (right concentration) is the same as fulfilment of the four > rupa-jhanas (see DN 22 for the definition of right concentration). > > Htoo, for example, disagrees with both. But I am not sure he disagrees > with your "linking" above. > Warm regards, > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deat Tep, KH and all, Dhamma Thread reach ( 532 ) and starts on atthangika magga. When it is available to DSG, let us see. For the time being because of some limitation bear with me. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49207 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 502 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 7 different stocks of dhamma that have similar qualities in terms of implications. These 7 sets or 7 stocks or 7 groups of dhamma are described in abhidhammatthasangaha as 'missaka sangaha'. Missaka means 'mixed' or 'combined'. These 7 stocks are combinations of different paramattha dhammas unlike 'akusala stock' or 'akusala sangaha', where all dhamma are cetasika dhamma. These 7 stocks of mixed paramattha dhamma or 7 stocks of peer-dhamma are 1. hetu or root 2. jhaananga or absorption-factor 3. magganga or path-factor 4. indriya or faculty 5. bala or power 6. adhipati or predominance 7. ahaara or nutriment 1. hetu sangaha or 'collection of roots' or 'the stock of roots' There are 6 different kinds of root dhamma when all dhamma are ultimately seen. Roots are the chief source that supports the whole tree. When there is no longer root then the tree cannot exist at all. When dhamma are ultimately seen there are citta, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. Citta, cetasikas, and ruupas are collectively called sankhata dhamma or 'conditioned dhamma' while nibbana is asankhata dhamma or 'unconditioned dhamma'. In conditioned dhamma there are 2 kinds of dhamma. They are naama dhamma and ruupa dhamma. Naama dhamma are nature that has the quality of knowing, perceiving whereas ruupa dhamma are nature that does not have any quality of knowing. Ruupa dhamma do not have any root dhamma even though they are conditioned by 4 various causes of kamma, citta, utu, and ahara. Among naama dhamma there are dhamma that have roots and there also are dhamma that do not have roots. Dhamma that have roots as support to their existence are called sahetuka dhamma or rooted-dhamma and dhamma that do not have roots are called ahetuka dhamma or rootless-dhamma. There are 89 cittas or 89 states of mind that have their respective different combinations of cetasika dhamma. Among them 18 cittas are called ahetuka cittas or rootless consciousness while all other 71 cittas are called sahetuka cittas or rooted consciousness. These 71 cittas are supported by different combinations of 6 roots whether there are 2 or 3 roots or even may be just a single root. These 6 roots or root dhamma or hetus are all cetasika dhamma. These 6 hetus or roots are 1. lobha or 'root of attachment' 2. dosa or 'root of aversion' 3. moha or 'root of ignorance' 4. alobha or 'root of non-attachment' 5. adosa or 'root of non-aversion' 6. amoha or 'root of non-ignorance' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49208 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha sarahprocter... Hi Nina, Azita & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Azita, > As far as I understood also for samatha sati sampajañña that discerns > directly, without thinking, kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is > necessary. True, it does not know them as non-self, but I believe that > there > is more here than merely thinking about them. > But perhaps this is also what you mean? .... S: As I suggested, I understand there are different kinds and levels of thinking. However, even though there is sati and pa~n~naa arising with samatha bhavana, the object is a concept and any knowledge of kusala and akusala is not the knowledge of realities (as developed in satipatthana). This is why nimitta or mental impressions are referred to – they are concepts. For example, let’s say ‘hardness’ is the object of samatha development. It is the concept or nimitta of reality (like now as we speak) that is the object, based on many, many experiences, not the understanding of hardness as a dhatu. It is the same for the understanding of wholesome and unwholesome mental states or calm arising, however highly developed the samatha is. As we know, even when jhana cittas arise, the object is a concept (with the exception of two arupa-jhana cittas which have the previous cittas (realities) as objects). It’s the same with breath as an object of samatha.....it’s a concept of breath (as a result of experiences of the rupas of breath) unlike in saipatthana, where the dhatus or elements or rupas are known as realities. I quoted a comment from a post of yours (#47609) about how ‘Also in samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome’and K.Sujin confirmed this was all ‘conceptual understanding’. (Paccevekkana cittas – another matter, I think). It’s the same with the kasinas, as I understand. The nimitta are concepts based on experiences, just like now, our understanding of visible object is a nimitta based on experiences. It is not understanding of the characteristic of a reality, because we cannot pinpoint or tell which one has arisen. It’s like the ‘circle of light’ or sparkler image I referred to. When awareness grows, having heard the teachings, what is seen as nimitta will appear better and better or more and more distinctly until it’s seen as a dhatu. I’m reminded of earlier discussions about dhatus as objects of samatha bhavana and how they must be as concepts. This is why it’s only the development of satipatthana that can lead to any escape from samsara. ..... >I may have misunderstood you. > Perhaps I get confused by your words conceptual. A most difficult word > for > me and it can have many different meanings. ... S: Yes. Thinking and concepts are very diverse and very different from our usual understandings of these terms. We are not talking about thinking in words here. .... > Strong sati and pannña are necessary as the Visuddhimagga says in its > treatment of anapana sati samaadhi. In samatha there is paññaa of the > level > of samatha, but there are sati and paññaa, not thinking of concepts. .... S: Yes, strong sati and pa~n~naa. Still, concepts are the objects of sobhana cittas, as I understand, unless it is the development of satipatthana (or of course when lokuttara cittas or the two arupa jhana cittas arise). I’ll be glad to read any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo and others may have comments too, I hope. I made very few notes of discussions,so this is just my understanding. ======= 49209 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ---------- RK: > How true. This made me reflect on how I used to be as a new Buddhist: no insight at all, 100% wrong view and thus believing I had to do something. No possibility of seeing the present moment at all. ---------- That, in turn, has made me reflect and remember the same thing. But, even in those days there was interest in the Dhamma, wasn't there? That is the common thread. Ken H 49210 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Ken - > > There is included the sentence <<"Uplifting rapture" is so-called because > it is credited with the ability to cause the body to levitate, and the > Visuddhimagga cites several cases where this literally occurs.>> in an article on > Transcendental Dependent Arising by Bhikkhu Bodhi at the site > www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html > Thanks Howard, that was interesting reading, but not what I was looking for. I was so sure I had seen that reference - I could even visualise where it was on the page. But no, my mind was playing tricks. Thanks again. Ken H 49211 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:01am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi Philip, ------- Ph: how > on earth there can be control when there is no self? M: :) , yes, yes, there is no control in an ultimate sense! You seem to have gotten rid of conventional thinking altogether! The concept of control is present and used in a conventional sense. I dont think anyone here is saying anything to the contrary. take care Matheesha 49212 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman and all who believe in no self --> no control - Thank you Herman for hitting the nail on its head. Herman: >You only need to mention > control and everyone's off on an atta tangent. It seems that some > words have a very dominating influence :-). > Tep: The tangential force that throws away anyone out of the right-view orbit is caused by the obsession with not-self, no self, and ultimate realities. Yet, the obsession can cause them to belive that 'Only this is right, everything else is wrong'. Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Dear Nina, > > I have been attempting to have a discussion about control as > influence/dominance. Not getting very far. You only need to mention > control and everyone's off on an atta tangent. It seems that some > words have a very dominating influence :-). > > Could you say a little, or a lot if you like, about the predominance > condition. Is it incorrect to say that some mental factors are of > greater influence than others? Are some factors chiefs and some > factors Indians? > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > > On 24/08/05, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, Larry, Herman, > > op 23-08-2005 04:01 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > I guess Larry is saying that there are only conditioned dhammas > > > (according to Dependent Origination), therefore there is no "agent" to perform the control function. > > > > > > Nina may be happy to comment a little on the Larry's view. ^_^ > > ------ > > N: I wholeheartedly agree with Larry. > > My comment: part of the post I sent to Htoo yesterday, and the clue is in the last sentence: > > 49213 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Tep (and Joop), Thank you for this. I knew I overstepped the mark when I said "everyone's off on a tangent". Like Joop says, exaggerated. Kind Regards Herman On 24/08/05, Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Herman and all who believe in no self --> no control - > > Thank you Herman for hitting the nail on its head. > > Herman: > > >You only need to mention > > control and everyone's off on an atta tangent. It seems that some > > words have a very dominating influence :-). > > > > Tep: > > The tangential force that throws away anyone out of the right-view orbit > is caused by the obsession with not-self, no self, and ultimate realities. > Yet, the obsession can cause them to belive that 'Only this is right, > everything else is wrong'. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ============= > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > > I have been attempting to have a discussion about control as > > influence/dominance. Not getting very far. You only need to mention > > control and everyone's off on an atta tangent. It seems that some > > words have a very dominating influence :-). > > > > Could you say a little, or a lot if you like, about the predominance > > condition. Is it incorrect to say that some mental factors are of > > greater influence than others? Are some factors chiefs and some > > factors Indians? > > 49214 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? sarahprocter... Hi Frank, (Chris & all), --- frank wrote: >.....In this in between state when I'm not out of > my > old house, not in the new house. I might stay at a friend's house, I > might > go to a hotel, I might camp out on the beach. The deal might fall > through if > the termite inspection fails, or a hurricane wipes out the new house. > There's a lot possibilities in this antarabhava state between my two > houses. .... I see you still have your descriptive way with words:). As Chris indicated, I've written a few posts on this topic and will add a quote at the end from one on the Bahiya Sutta and commentary at the end of the post. (Full post at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24939) Don’t you think that when we understand that when we talk about life, realms, planes and rebirth that we’re really only talking about cittas, cetasikas and rupas? Doesn’t this make it simpler? Just as now there are only conditioned cittas with their accompanying mental factors and conditioned rupas arising and falling away in rapid succession, so it was in the past and so it will be in the future. Apart from these 5 khandhas, there is no other being to hang out anywhere.......Even if there is a short-lived ‘home’ for cittas for even just a few moments, life is continuing in that bhumi or realm. There’s death and birth of cittas, of consciousness all the time......the nature of these cittas constitutes the realm or home, however temporary or long-term, as I understand. All possible alternative domains are covered in the realms discussed in the teachings, just as even a night out camping on the beach has its particular ‘domain’, don’t you think? Glad to see you around, Frank and hope you’re settling well into your new home if you’ve already moved back to California. Look forward to any further comments. I'd like to undersand your reasoning better. Metta, Sarah p.s We discussed in Bangkok at the weekend how we can’t tell from medical science when the last moment of life (cuti citta) is precisely. Even so, I have no problem in having made it clear that any part of my body can be used for any transplants or research.....I see these as mere rupas that have served their use.....However, it’s a sensitive and personal issue and I respect your concerns and views on it, Frank. No rules on these kinds of decision at all, whatever the beliefs..... ===== S: From my earlier post linked above: Ud-a continues: “It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg Aiv70ff) and ‘Those who are become or those seeking becoming’(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such thing)’, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as ‘those who are become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been abandoned....” There is a lot more detail, but I’ll leave it here with this last quote given in Ud-a on the same subject: “For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the (canonical) Pali, what business is there in postulating an intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?” ***** 49215 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:57am Subject: The Meaning of 'Sati' upasaka_howard Hi, all - The word 'sati' is usually translated as "mindfulness" or "discernment" or "awareness", in descending order of frequency. The fundamental meaning of the word, though, is that of "memory" or "recollection". One might wonder what the connection is between these apparently disparate senses. Here is my opinion: Sati is not actually a matter of paying attention or observing clearly or discerning. It *is* a kind of remembering. Sati is remembering or keeping in mind to be attentive to exactly what is happening at the present moment. It is not the attending; it is the *remembering* to attend. So, as an example, when one is meditating and one gets lost in thought or drowsiness or in some other manner, and then one suddenly remembers to pay attention to what is actually happening, it is at that moment of recollection that sati is active. The same is true with regard to guarding the senses. Whenever one has lost attentiveness, and one then remembers to resume being attentive, sati is functioning. So it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49216 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' htootintnaing Dear Howard and all, Howard wrote: Hi, all - The word 'sati' is usually translated as "mindfulness" or "discernment" or "awareness", in descending order of frequency. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All these 3 words do not correspond with 'sati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The fundamental meaning of the word, though, is that of "memory" or "recollection". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: A bit close. But not exactly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: One might wonder what the connection is between these apparently disparate senses. Here is my opinion: Sati is not actually a matter of paying attention or observing clearly or discerning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This expression is right. Paying attention is the job of 'manasikaara'. Observing is a bit general. Discerning is connected with 'pa~n~naa' or wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It *is* a kind of remembering. Sati is remembering or keeping in mind to be attentive to exactly what is happening at the present moment. It is not the attending; it is the *remembering* to attend. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This meaning is much more close to actual meaning of 'sati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So, as an example, when one is meditating and one gets lost in thought or drowsiness or in some other manner, and then one suddenly remembers to pay attention to what is actually happening, it is at that moment of recollection that sati is active. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The same is true with regard to guarding the senses. Whenever one has lost attentiveness, and one then remembers to resume being attentive, sati is functioning. So it seems to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bravo! Very good Howard. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > With metta, > Howard 49217 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:46am Subject: Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' nidive Hi Howard, >> Sati is remembering or keeping in mind to be attentive to exactly >> what is happening at the present moment. It is not the attending; >> it is the *remembering* to attend. I agree! When you keep remembering to bring back attention to the object of investigation (for example, a train of thought) until attention is uninterrupted, concentration arises. Somehow, I always knew this! Regards, Swee Boon 49218 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 503 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. Hetu or root dhamma is one of these 7 stocks. There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. They are 1. lobha or 'root of attachment' 2. dosa or 'root of aversion' 3. moha or 'root of ignorance' 4. alobha or 'root of non-attachment' 5. adosa or 'root of non-aversion' 6. amoha or 'root of non-ignorance' All these 6 dhamma are cetasika dhammas. But as usual cetasika cannot arise singly. They have to arise with citta and other associated cetasikas. When these 6 hetus are checked in 89 cittas there are 71 cittas that have hetu or root. Other 18 cittas do not have any root. They are rootless consciousness or ahetuka cittas. They are a) 7 akusala-vipaaka cittas ( vipaaka cittas) b) 8 kusala-vipaaka cittas (vipaaka cittas) c) 3 ahetuka-kiriya cittas (all 3 are kiriya cittas) -- 18 ahetuka cittas 89 - 18 = 71 sahetuka cittas or 71 rooted consciousness They are a) 2 ekahetuka citta or 2 single-rooted consciousness b) 22 dvi-hetuka cittas or 22 double-rooted consciousness c) 47 ti-hetuka cittas or 47 triple-rooted consciousness -- 71 sahetuka cittas 18 ahetuka cittas -- 89 total cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49219 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:08am Subject: Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' / Nina's Writing buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Here is what Nina has written about Sati in "Satipatthana". I like it and think it is a good addition to your post. "Sati arises with dana, with sila and with bhavana, including samatha and vipassana. Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, it arises with each kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for generosity, sati is heedful, non-forgetful, so that this opportunity is not wasted. When sati does not arise, we are forgetful of kusala and we are unable to be generous. When there is an opportunity for dana, we are often neglectful and we waste this opportunity. When sati does not arise, we are unable to give, we are stingy. "Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Also reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. [endquote] My one-cent contribution is: Saddha and Viriya are strong supporting conditions for Samma-sati to arise. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The word 'sati' is usually translated as "mindfulness" or > "discernment" or "awareness", in descending order of frequency. The fundamental meaning of the word, though, is that of "memory" or "recollection". One might wonder what the connection is between these apparently disparate senses. Here is my opinion: Sati is not actually a matter of paying attention or observing clearly or discerning. It *is* a kind of remembering. Sati is remembering or keeping in > mind to be attentive to exactly what is happening at the present moment. It is not the attending; it is the *remembering* to attend. So, as an example, when one is meditating and one gets lost in thought or drowsiness or in some other manner, and then one suddenly remembers to pay attention to what is actually > happening, it is at that moment of recollection that sati is active. The same is true with regard to guarding the senses. Whenever one has lost attentiveness, and one then remembers to resume being attentive, sati is functioning. So it seems to me. > 49220 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? dhamma_service Hi Sarah, [monumental snip to make you happy] I wasn't actually interested in engaging in a discussion on this topic, I was mostly just expressing great disappointment in Robert K. resorting to straw man arguments and dogmatism as his support. However, since Sarah here is engaging in the same topic in such an amiable way, I'll take this opportunity to seek clarification on a few points. What a difference civility makes. It seems to me maybe people are getting caught up in the word antarabhava. For the purpose of discussion, let's use different terminology and use a simple scenario. Say samsara only has the human realm and we're dealing with human rebirth here. In between the moment of medical death, and the baby fetus emerging from the mother's womb about 10 months later. So here's a timeline highlighting some critical moments: 1) clinical medical death 2) sperm hits the egg, merges, and hours or days later we have a a relinking vehicle in which to "rebirth" to. 3) at some point between fetus emerging from womb and the sperm and egg merging, the relinking consciousness decides to officially claim the new body. 4) fetus emerges from womb. So discarding the loaded term antarabhava, I'm going to refer to time intervals. INT1-2: time interval between 1 and 2 INT1-4: time interval between 1 and 4 INT2-3: interval between 2 and 3 Etc.. I'm going to call INT1-3 "escrow" for clarity. Escrow is just a conventional truth I'm making up to account for a time interval. Escrow is not a permanent soul and permanent body that comes into existence for this time interval and then spontaneously annihilates itself. So if I understand the abidhamma position correctly, escrow time can only be zero. Also, INT2-3, which is a subset of escrow is also zero. I.e. relinking consciousness HAS to simultaneously occur with sperm and egg merging. Furthermore, this moment immediately succeeds the moment of clinical death. So to summarize in chronological order: a) medical clinical death, brain death occurs. b) rebirth linking consciousness, sperm, egg merge with only the shortest possible atomic abidhammic time unit Am I representing abidhamma position accurately? If everything is kosher so far, I'll then summarize what I believe to be the "escrow"-ist view of things using this same framework. -fk 49221 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:36am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Dan D. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I intended > with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous > presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism "gently slam" is an oxymoron. If you ever intend to 'slam' me it will never be 'gentle'. It will also always be inappropriate. I wish you had just been straightforward in your previous post and I could have responded appropriately. No one likes a smart-alek. Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and come back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. Metta, James ps. A friend here in Cairo, a new member of this group, wrote a post to you also but I guess it was censored. He was much more upset by your 'gentle slamming' than I was. 49222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control nilovg Dear Herman (and Phil), op 24-08-2005 07:13 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > > I have been attempting to have a discussion about control as > influence/dominance. -------- N: debates about words can be lenghty. The main thing: what does one understand about the meaning represented by a word such as control. What is controlling, a dhamma arisen because of its own conditions or is it a self? One can speak with wrong understanding or with right understanding of training, making efforts, etc. When there is right understanding one understands at least intellectually that whatever is undertaken is conditioned by several dhammas. If one says: this is anatta, beyond control, a further explanation would be helpful. ------- > H: Could you say a little, or a lot if you like, about the predominance > condition. Is it incorrect to say that some mental factors are of > greater influence than others? Are some factors chiefs and some > factors Indians? -------- N: predominance condition can be conascent predominance or object predominance. A detailed subject but you asked for it. As to conascent-predominance: chanda, viriya, citta and investigation of Dhamma (paññaa) can be, one at a time, predominant in one's undertakings. The first three factors can be akusala as well as kusala. Not all cittas can be predominant, only those with at least two roots. Thus, all kusala cittas, but among akusala cittas not those that are rooted in moha alone. For instance sometimes I may type on the net with chanda, there is desire to do. Sometimes I need more effort, but I still do it: viriya may be predominant. Sometimes there may be a degree of understanding, and sometimes kusala citta rooted only in alobha, and adosa. Or, sometimes with lobha-muulacitta when there is attachment, or with conceit arising with lobha-muulacitta: see what a good post I prepared. It is not so easy to find out what is predominant, one may easily take for kusala what is akusala, and mostly they alternate. Say, there is effort that is kusala, but then it is alternated with akusala, one has aversion because the list is so much work, one feels tired. Thus you see that here are many cetasikas at work and controlling the show. No place for a self who controls. Even when typing now there is a whole range of kusala and akusala. Predominance of object: an object may be very desirable, we like it very much and give preponderance to it. Then it is object predominance condition for lobha. Or kusala can be predominance of object condition for kusala: dana may be recollected afterwards with kusala citta which esteems it. Akusala can condition akusala citta by way of predominance of object. One may delight in lobha or in wrong view. These examples show us again that there is a concurrence of conditions for the arising of such or such dhamma. Five factors are called controlling fators, indiryas, they are leaders each in their own field: confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. They develop through satipatthana and they can become powers, unshakable by their opposites. Through satipatthana there is guarding or control of the six doorways. This is training in higher siila. I quote what I wrote before: There are two sobhana cetasikas accompanying each kusala citta: hiri, shame of akusala and anottappa, fear of its consequences. One sees peril in the slightest faults as is said in the Vinaya. Through conditions there will be more appreciation of the value of kusala and the danger of akusala. The condition for this is the development of right understanding. This means: kusala, akusala, whatever arises and appears is only dhamma. We should remember that what appears has arisen because of the appropriate conditions so that it can appear. This is very difficult, and it is a long learning process. How often we may say: anatta and it is only lip service. Phil wrote: < I think it comes down to having fewer obstacles to the arising of wholesomeness, because there is less of the clinging to people's accumulated characters, which make us like and dislike them so. When we have an intellectual understanding of people in ultimate terms, there is simply less irritation that we escape from through doing good, and less affection that we add to by doing good, and the good we do is therefore purer. And this is just thinking at an intellectual level. > Understanding what dhamma is, dhamma as dhamma, is not a cold attitude, on the contrary, it will help us in our relations with others. Preference for certain people, being partial, it is all lobha and in the way of mettaa. Therefore it is most helpful to know the dhamma that has arisen and appears. We cannot choose it but it can be understood. We cannot choose it, that is another way of saying: anattaa. As I repeated now several times these days: The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: But I am sure I did not answer all your questions. Nina. 49223 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:09am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear friends: ****** Nina. 49224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha nilovg Dear Sarah, It is clear that the object of jhana is a concept. But I am not so sure that when the yogavacara is developing calm and has to know many dhammas, realities, it is merely about concepts. He has to know the hindrances and these are dhammas, not concepts. I am not sure Kh Sujin used the words conceptual understanding, we better ask for the exact quote in India. Paccevekkana cittas, what exactly are they? Nina. op 24-08-2005 13:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I quoted a comment from a post of yours (#47609) about how ‘Also in > samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it > can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the > jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome’and K.Sujin confirmed > this was all ‘conceptual understanding’. (Paccevekkana cittas – another > matter, I think). 49225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' / Nina's Writing nilovg Hi Tep, yes, and many other sobhana dhammas: kusala chanda, hiri, ottappa, alobha, adosa, calm, concentration, agility, wieldiness, etc. It is a concurrence of many conditions even for one moment of right mindfulness. Nina. op 24-08-2005 18:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: My one-cent contribution is: Saddha and Viriya are strong supporting conditions for Samma-sati to arise. 49226 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Meaning of 'Sati' nilovg Hi Howard, Htoo answered and I could add some passages from my Vis. studies (Ch XIV, 141). Non-forgetfulness of what is wholesome is a good rendering of sati I would think. Then we also do jusitice to the Pali root sarati: to remember. --------- As the Tiika explains, sati does not go elsewhere but confronts the object that presents itself. Sati does not move away from the present object, it is steadfast like a pillar. Mindfulness is non-forgetful of the object, and understanding (paññaa) has the function of knowing it as it is. Right Mindfulness is one of the Path-factors and it is among the factors leading to enlightenment. **** Nina. op 24-08-2005 16:57 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > The word 'sati' is usually translated as "mindfulness" or > "discernment" or "awareness", in descending order of frequency. The > fundamental meaning of > the word, though, is that of "memory" or "recollection". 49227 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:05pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, (Nina and Howard), > > Are you back in Egypt? If so, I hope you get on well in your new school. James: Yes, I am back in Egypt. Thanks for the well wishes. Students don't start attending until Sept. 11 so I have some time to prepare. > > Apologies for delays ....others have already replied, I know. James: No need to apologize. Hope you had a nice vacation. > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and All, > > > > Sarah: James & Ken H, glad to read your continued discussion on metta > > and 'clinging to metta'. In the context of our discussion with Herman, > > it was clinging to having more metta and other wholesome states in the > > future as he said...to being a better person and so on. This is not > > the development of metta as he explained. Yes, clinging can be to > > anything now... > > > > James: What exactly is wrong with wanting to have more metta and > > wanting to be a better person? Aren't those wholesome desires? > ... > S: I think that whenever we're concerned with ourselves, wanting anything > for 'me', whether it be more prosperity, more holidays, more metta, more > 'better person' qualities, then we can test out that at these times we > don't have anyone else's interests at heart which of course is what the > brahma viharas do. James: I think your impression of metta is far too idealistic. The generation of metta doesn't have to be that entirely selfless, in my opinion. After all, the Buddha in the Metta Sutta listed 11 benefits to those who practice metta: ""One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind gains concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies unconfused and -- if penetrating no higher -- is headed for the Brahma worlds." Now, why would the Buddha list these 11 benefits to his monks except to encourage them to cultivate metta for their own benefit? He didn't say "Cultivate metta because it is the right thing to do- not because you can expect any personal benefits". When there is metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha (the 4 > brahma viharas), we think of others' welfare, others' difficulties, good > fortune and so on without any thought of our own wants and needs. James: Again, look at what the Buddha taught. > > This doesn't mean there can never be thoughts about oneself with wholesome > cittas, but even when there is understanding or wise reflections on the > dhamma for example, I find it hard to see where any thoughts of oneself > come in. Appreciating the value of kindness or generosity is not the same > as wanting to be a better person.... James: Again, look at what the Buddha taught. > .... > > > > As for myself, I usually do metta meditation while riding the exercise > > bike. > <...>>Am I clinging to metta? > .... > S: I think we can only answer this for ourselves when there's awareness. > .... James: ;-)) Smooth answer. But I don't think you are being very honest about what you think. After all, I asked you what you thought about it, not what I thought about it. > > > > Here's another instance where I didn't intend to generate metta: One > > day I was in a very depressed and upset mood. <...> > > For a fleeting > > moment, I felt extreme metta for that teacher who had betrayed me, for > > the school and its students, for the taxi driver, and for everyone > > else who was struggling in the heat of Cairo. > ... > S: I like your story, James. It shows how fleeting and anatta mental > states are. James: Glad you liked it. Dosa and then metta without any special action. Just by its > own conditions and because we understand its value, appreciation of the > quality when it arises. James: Could be. Could also be that my previous metta meditations conditioned this occurance, or at least gave me the insight to recognize it for what it was. You shouldn't underestimate the conditioning influence of meditation. > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Metta, James 49228 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:14pm Subject: Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? rjkjp1 Dear Frank, I am saying that according to the Dhamma all states last only for an instant. The Buddha explained all realms- grouped as kama-loka, rupa- loka and arupa loka. The idea of intermediate place in between these realms is outside of what yteh Buddha taught, it is inventing something else, and that invention comes from some idea of atta and nicca. ________________ > > But the issue we're talking about is a minor point where the pali canon > seems to leave a little bit of room open for interpretation. ++++++++ I don't thnk it is a minor point. It has been refuted in the Katthavatthu - part of the Tipitaka (i.e the Pali cannon). =================== It's not like > anyone here is trying to deny rebirth. And the reason they support > antarabhava is because they've opened their divine eye and witnessed it for > themselves. Have you opened your divine eye and saw evidence to the > contrary, that every single death you observed, the rebirth consciousness is > instantaneous? _________ How do you know they have attained the divine eye? They might be seeing illusions that can come from concentration.. Or even if they were they might be seeing someone born from one life and into another from a short time and think the state that only lasted a few days was an 'intermediate state'. On Pali list last week you were recommending we should read an on- line article (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html) about logic and reasoning and explained to a monk about how he was making assumptions that weren't proof. Would the Atheism Web would accept your evidence above? But to answer your question - No divine eye here at all. No particular reliance on logic either. Just confidence that states only last an instant. ++++++++++++++ > With the various types of beings that are known to science, beings born > through womb, or eggs, bacteria, viruses, artifical insemination, > caterpillars metamorphosing into moths (what would you call that in between > state? Don't answer, it's rhetorical), jelly fish where light passes through > their body, hungry ghosts, hell beings, fine material devas, immaterial > brahmas, it seems rather unlikely that each type of sentient being has the > same exact clear cut instantaneous rebirth linking consciousness at death > immediately transferring into the next mode of rebirth. ++++++++++ Why does it seem unlikely that rebirth is instantaneous? Do you agree that each moment conditions the next moment? I really can't understand how you can think there is this intermediate state. Why do you think it is needed? Do you agree that someone could die and be immediately reborn? Or is it always the case that they must have this intermediate state? _________________________________ > > Are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? At the time of your > death, at the moment science recognizes you as clinically dead, go ahead and > let them cremate you or harvest your organs for the organ donor program. If > you and your bible are correct, that rebirth is instaneous, then no worries. > But if the proponents of the antarabhava are correct, i.e. many cases > rebirth is instantenous but in many cases, it can last an indeterminate # of > days, up to 40(?), then while they're harvesting your organs from your dead > body in antarabhava, with the ticket to a heavenly deva realm in your hand, > suddenly the excruciating pain of organ harvesting puts you into an angry, > confused, ,distressed state of mind and you miss the bus to deva- realm and > instead end up as a cockroach. That would suck. Are you willing to make that > bet? Me, I'm going to play it safe. No one goes near my body for AT LEAST a > month after I die. I happen to believe the antrabhava view makes a lot of > sense, but even if I didn't, I would still play it safe. +++++++++ On my driving license (for over 15 years now) I have a point that makes it clear that my organs can be harvested immediately by the hospital if I die in an accident. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > If that's what you want to believe, so be it. But at least show some > courtesy and abstain from using pejorative terms and building silly straw > man arguments. > +++++++++ I know many members are irritated by my posts, still I'm quite happy to write as I always do: straw man arguments, lack of courtesy and perjoratives are my trademarks I guess. You could ask Sarah and jon to ban me though. Robertk p.s. Would you mind if I use your post on pali-list (and sarah yours too?), I think it still needs more discussion, if the topic comes up again that is. 49229 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > > Furthermore, this moment immediately succeeds the moment of clinical death. > So to summarize in chronological order: > a) medical clinical death, brain death occurs. > b) rebirth linking consciousness, sperm, egg merge with only the shortest > possible atomic abidhammic time unit > > Am I representing abidhamma position accurately? If everything is kosher so > far, I'll then summarize what I believe to be the "escrow"-ist view of > things using this same framework. > _________ Dear Frank, As far as I know this is not teh Abhidhamma position. Consciousness can arise at any time after the egg and sperm join. There is nowhere in the tetxs where it says it has to be at the very first moment when the sperm enters the egg. As I undertand it, it can happen immediately or after hours or possibly (in rare cases a day or so later). The sperm and egg mix is merely suitable rupa that can support consciousness. Robertk 49230 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > . So, as an example, when > one is meditating and one gets lost in thought or drowsiness or in some other > manner, and then one suddenly remembers to pay attention to what is actually > happening, it is at that moment of recollection that sati is active. The same > is true with regard to guarding the senses. Whenever one has lost > attentiveness, and one then remembers to resume being attentive, sati is functioning. So > it seems to me. > >++++++++ Dear Howard, I spent months on meditation retreats with just that idea about sati. But actually what you describe above can be done with lobha and sanna and manisikara. Sati is very subtle, it comes with non-attachment. And when we speak about sati of satipatthana it always comes in association with panna that breaks down the idea of a self. Robertk 49231 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Meaning of 'Sati' lbidd2 Howard: "Sati is remembering or keeping in mind to be attentive to exactly what is happening at the present moment." Hi Howard, I agree. It has the characteristic of not wobbling. I think this characteristic ties into "foundation" or "establishment" in the four foundations of mindfulness (satipattana). Larry 49232 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@z... wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Nice to hear from you-- > > > Are pannatti mind-door objects "liable to" delude or induce lust or > > hate in a way that paramattha mind-door objects aren't? If so, is > > this due to the 'own nature' of the paramattha objects in any way? > > Great question I think and my answer is 'no'--ignorance, desire and aversion are just as likely to arise with regard to a concept, designation or convention as to a paramattha dhamma. So the akusala is real regardless of the object. Unfortunately. Corrections welcome. Hi Mike Thanks for your comments ... very helpful. I think the English translation "objects liable to cause delusion" has a connotation that there is some 'delusion' characteristic in the object itself which, as you say, is not correct. An example of the dangers of trying to read the suttas at face value and without reference to explanatory material and the overall 'big picture'? Best wishes Andrew T 49233 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/24/05 6:37:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Howard, I spent months on meditation retreats with just that idea about sati. But actually what you describe above can be done with lobha and sanna and manisikara. Sati is very subtle, it comes with non-attachment. And when we speak about sati of satipatthana it always comes in association with panna that breaks down the idea of a self. Robertk ======================= I'm not sure about this, Robert. But I respect your understanding, so I will give this serious consideration. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49234 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control egberdina Hi Nina (Phil) and all, Thank you for your post. I greatly appreciate it. I can think of only one improvement to it. A pretty major improvement it would be, too. You could have written at various points : "Herman is completely right, and Larry is wrong". :-) Seriously though, your reminders are very good. Just to make sure everybody understands that I do not believe in a controlling self. I wrote a few weeks ago about the scientific findings of Mr Libet. He demonstrated that awareness of volition arises 1/2 second after the brain non-consciously generates that volition. He also demonstrated that the mind plays little tricks and generates the sequence of experience quite differently to what actually happens. For me, this is scientific proof of anatta. That it follows 2600 years after the Buddha first announced it demonstrates the enormity of the Buddha's insight. If I remember correctly, Phil's advice was to dispense with science, which I think a little strange. Is faith preferable to knowing? I do not believe in the truth of anatta, I know it to be true!!!! Kind Regards Herman On 25/08/05, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Herman (and Phil), > op 24-08-2005 07:13 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > > > > > I have been attempting to have a discussion about control as > > influence/dominance. > -------- > N: debates about words can be lenghty. The main thing: what does one > understand about the meaning represented by a word such as control. > What is controlling, a dhamma arisen because of its own conditions or is it > a self? > One can speak with wrong understanding or with right understanding of > training, making efforts, etc. When there is right understanding one > understands at least intellectually that whatever is undertaken is > conditioned by several dhammas. > If one says: this is anatta, beyond control, a further explanation would be > helpful. > ------- > > > H: Could you say a little, or a lot if you like, about the predominance > > condition. Is it incorrect to say that some mental factors are of > > greater influence than others? Are some factors chiefs and some > > factors Indians? > -------- > N: predominance condition can be conascent predominance or object > predominance. > A detailed subject but you asked for it. > As to conascent-predominance: chanda, viriya, citta and investigation of > Dhamma (paññaa) can be, one at a time, predominant in one's undertakings. > The first three factors can be akusala as well as kusala. > Not all cittas can be predominant, only those with at least two roots. Thus, > all kusala cittas, but among akusala cittas not those that are rooted in > moha alone. > For instance sometimes I may type on the net with chanda, there is desire to > do. Sometimes I need more effort, but I still do it: viriya may be > predominant. Sometimes there may be a degree of understanding, and sometimes > kusala citta rooted only in alobha, and adosa. Or, sometimes with > lobha-muulacitta when there is attachment, or with conceit arising with > lobha-muulacitta: see what a good post I prepared. > It is not so easy to find out what is predominant, one may easily take for > kusala what is akusala, and mostly they alternate. Say, there is effort that > is kusala, but then it is alternated with akusala, one has aversion because > the list is so much work, one feels tired. > Thus you see that here are many cetasikas at work and controlling the show. > No place for a self who controls. Even when typing now there is a whole > range of kusala and akusala. > > Predominance of object: an object may be very desirable, we like it very > much and give preponderance to it. Then it is object predominance condition > for lobha. > Or kusala can be predominance of object condition for kusala: dana may be > recollected afterwards with kusala citta which esteems it. Akusala can > condition akusala citta by way of predominance of object. One may delight in > lobha or in wrong view. > These examples show us again that there is a concurrence of conditions for > the arising of such or such dhamma. > > Five factors are called controlling fators, indiryas, they are leaders each > in their own field: > confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. They develop > through satipatthana and they can become powers, unshakable by their > opposites. > Through satipatthana there is guarding or control of the six doorways. This > is training in higher siila. I quote what I wrote before: > there is restraint of the six doors, there is no opportunity for akusala. > This also means that there is calm at that moment. Sati can prevent one from > committing akusala kamma and also from akusala which is of a lesser degree. > Thus, at the moment of right mindfulness there is the threefold higher > training: training in higher síla, higher calm and higher paññå. Training is > the translation of the Påli term sikkhå. Training means applying oneself > again and again.> > > There are two sobhana cetasikas accompanying each kusala citta: hiri, shame > of akusala and anottappa, fear of its consequences. One sees peril in the > slightest faults as is said in the Vinaya. Through conditions there will be > more appreciation of the value of kusala and the danger of akusala. > The condition for this is the development of right understanding. This > means: kusala, akusala, whatever arises and appears is only dhamma. We > should remember that what appears has arisen because of the appropriate > conditions so that it can appear. > This is very difficult, and it is a long learning process. How often we may > say: anatta and it is only lip service. > > Phil wrote: < I think it comes down to having fewer obstacles to the arising > of > wholesomeness, because there is less of the clinging to people's > accumulated characters, which make us like and dislike them so. When we > have an intellectual understanding of people in ultimate terms, there > is simply less irritation that we escape from through doing good, and > less affection that we add to by doing good, and the good we do is > therefore purer. And this is just thinking at an intellectual level. > > > Understanding what dhamma is, dhamma as dhamma, is not a cold attitude, on > the contrary, it will help us in our relations with others. Preference for > certain people, being partial, it is all lobha and in the way of mettaa. > Therefore it is most helpful to know the dhamma that has arisen and appears. > We cannot choose it but it can be understood. > We cannot choose it, that is another way of saying: anattaa. > As I repeated now several times these days: The Expositor explains with > regard to samaya as condition: conceit of one who believes that states unconditionally follow one¹s own > will is subdued.> > But I am sure I did not answer all your questions. > Nina. 49235 From: "amro_88888888" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:06am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) amro_88888888 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I intended > with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous > presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism ( first .. hi am a new member ..... Dan u said " even though all I intended with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism" ... well ... first .... excuse my spelling ... but i will get to the point ...... Dan ... i dont think u r a monk ... and i dont think u know much about buddism ..... coz i dont think u should call anyone that or even judge them ...... isnt that group to share ideas .... well i dont belive in hurting people phisically or mentally and u just hurt that guy metally for no reason ... and u said u wanted to slam him .... ohhh brother such a buddist .... thinking about that is against buddism ..... if i was in control of this group i would have kicked u out my self for thinking of such violent thoughts ...... and another thing that bugs me so much and make me angry ...... do u know buddagosa .... where u there ...... was he ur highschool mate ...... what do u know about him ..... am sorry if i sound bad in that post ... but man u sound like the worest buddhist i have ever seen ..... by the way am a beggining buddhist ..... am Egyptian ...... i have read about wt James is talking about ...... so i dont think u should judge untill u know wt u r talking about ... and wt terms to use ...... i know James ..... and he seem to know wt he is talking about ... but u .... i dont know about u ... but it seem to be that u dont know anything ... i mean man am a beggining buddhist and i know better than u ... thats a shame ...... thats should be enough for now ..... write me back ..... i wanna c wt u have to say .... "buddhist" ..... love Amr 49236 From: "colette" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object ksheri3 Yo All, I'll jump in on this post since time's limited --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman (Colette, Bruce), > > ------------------------- > H: > Ken, it would help me a great deal if you could give me an > example or two of an intrinsically desirable rupa, or some > undesirable ones. > -------------------------- > > Thanks for asking, Herman, I will do my best. But first, I would like > to give an example of an intrinsically wholesome nama. Adosa > (harmlessness) is an intrinsically wholesome nama. colette: this is where I reach the most irritating aspect of the esoteric study which has perplexed me on more than one occasion over the last 25-30 yrs., most recently while I was trying to grasp the kaballah according to Rabbi Isaac Luria and Cordovero: the nitpicking that always raises it's ugliness to create volumes of debate. >...intrinsically wholesome nama. one man's wholesomeness is another man's waste. Where has it been written what is and is not wholesome; where is it defined that this or that wholesomeness will always result in this or that conclusion? ect. --------------- Being a paramattha > dhamma it comes and goes in a ridiculously short period of time, so > you might ask, "Where is the use in that sort of example?" colette: I would ask no such question! I would remain in the jhana of realization and at the most would ask "What could a foul thing like a dead body have of any usefullness" (Asubha Jhana). My key would be to retain the vicara as a means of maintaining the sukha. Short period of time you say? Once a practioner begins study on the dhamma they should realize that the dhamma is everywhere 100% of the time, such as is the case in the Chasidic movement where the followers believe that "god" is in everything (don't bother asking since it'll get so involved with the destruction of the vessels that represented the sephirot, blah blah blah) This paramattha dhamma appears to come & go in a rediculously short period of time but it doesn't, the coming & going are a part of the illusion. Take for instance there are 4 modes of endeavour in Jhana practice: 1) jhana attained by difficult practice and by slow acquisition of speecial understanding 2) jhana attained by difficult pracdtice and by swift acquisition of special understanding 3) jhana attained by facile practice and slow acquisition of special understanding 4) jhana attained by facile practice and by swift acquisition of special understanding. Isn't it possible that the swift acquisition of knowledge is a constant, non-variable, such as a specific number on a number line? This I've just been kicked off the computer sorry! maybe I'll get a computer at the library for a few minutes. toodles, colette But you > and I have a fair understanding of harmlessness. > > On the odd occasion that we have experienced adosa, panna has not > been there to know it as adosa - the conditioned nama - but, > nonetheless, adosa has been experienced. So we know the meaning of > harmlessness even though we can't pin it down to a precise point in > time. We sometimes confuse it with other things, such as > sentimentality, but we have a pretty good idea of what it is like. > > To answer your question, my example of an intrinsically desirable > rupa is; 'desirable visible object.' Again, it sounds like a useless > sort of example, but you and I know what it is like to see something > desirable. Along with 'accountants and merchants'' - or 'the average > joe in the street' - we know what it is like, even though none of us > could confidently pin it down to a specific point in time. > > Corrections are welcome, but I think I am on the right track with > this. :-) > > Ken H 49237 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:53pm Subject: How to detect a problem child egberdina Hi all, You know you have a problem child on your hands when you give them a gift and they tell you they must wait for the right conditions to arise before they can play with it. Such a child does not appreciate the receiving of the gift as the right condition. Please receive your gift of the Noble Eight Fold Path today, and play as you see fit. Kind Regards Herman 49238 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Dear James, Obviously Dan has hit a nerve. I do not think he was looking to hit that nerve. The Internet can be a treacherously difficult communication medium. Please receive your gift of understanding and play as you see fit :-) Kind and Fond Regards Herman On 25/08/05, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Dan D. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I intended > > with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous > > presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism > > "gently slam" is an oxymoron. If you ever intend to 'slam' me it will > never be 'gentle'. It will also always be inappropriate. I wish you > had just been straightforward in your previous post and I could have > responded appropriately. No one likes a smart-alek. > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and come > back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. > > Metta, > James > ps. A friend here in Cairo, a new member of this group, wrote a post > to you also but I guess it was censored. He was much more upset by > your 'gentle slamming' than I was. > 49239 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha gazita2002 hello Nina and Sarah, the Buddhist dictionary gives 'retrospective knowledge' for paccavekkhana-nana; so could we say that P/cittas 'review'? this is unknown territory for me, BTW. I find both sides of the discussion believable. if its a good story, I'll believe anything :-) If the yogavacara has to know the hindrances, maybe they are known 'retrospectively' and that makes them concepts, even though its reality that is being reviewed by the paccavekkhana cittas. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > It is clear that the object of jhana is a concept. But I am not so sure that > when the yogavacara is developing calm and has to know many dhammas, > realities, it is merely about concepts. He has to know the hindrances and > these are dhammas, not concepts. > I am not sure Kh Sujin used the words conceptual understanding, we better > ask for the exact quote in India. Paccevekkana cittas, what exactly are > they? > Nina. > op 24-08-2005 13:33 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > I quoted a comment from a post of yours (#47609) about how `Also in > > samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it > > can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the > > jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome'and K.Sujin confirmed > > this was all `conceptual understanding'. (Paccevekkana cittas – another > > matter, I think). 49240 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/24/05 6:37:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > Dear Howard, > I spent months on meditation retreats with just that idea about sati. > But actually what you describe above can be done with lobha and sanna > and manisikara. > Sati is very subtle, it comes with non-attachment. And when we speak > about sati of satipatthana it always comes in association with panna > that breaks down the idea of a self. > Robertk > ======================= > I'm not sure about this, Robert. But I respect your understanding, so I > will give this serious consideration. +++++ Dear Howard, to expand: the points you mentioned are certainly present when sati is present - what I am saying is that those alone are not sure indications of sati. Robert 49241 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? egberdina Hi RobertK and all, I'm coming into this from a slightly different perspective. Some may find it useful or interesting. > ++++++++++ > Why does it seem unlikely that rebirth is instantaneous? Do you agree > that each moment conditions the next moment? I really can't > understand how you can think there is this intermediate state. Why do > you think it is needed? Do you agree that someone could die and be > immediately reborn? Or is it always the case that they must have this > intermediate state? > _________________________________ > My darling wife was in hospital yesterday. (If I ever discover that there is a Supreme Being responsible for women's anatomy I'm going to hold him seriously accountable). She was under general anaesthetic for around an hour. I do not think there is an Abhidhamma position on what happened during that time, but the following seems reasonable. There is no sense that each moment conditioned the next moment. There were no moments, there was no time, there was no Vicki. This state of affairs, or lack of it, was dependent on the chemical mix that dripped into her veins via a cannula. Time started again for Vicki some time after the last anaesthetic went into her body. There are at least two aspects to time. There are, no doubt, better ways to refer to them but I'll refer to them as subjective time and objective time, s-time and o-time for short. While Vicki was "under", the theatre staff observer her o-time, and nothing can be said about what her s-time was. She doesn't remember anything, but that doesn't mean she didn't experience anything. Her s-time may have been a microsecond or 3 millenia or in line with her observed o-time, or nothing at all. It seems to me that in the current discussion about intermediate states there is room for confusion about which time sequence we are talking about. Are we talking about what happens to the chain of conscious as observed by an outsider, or the subjective experience of that consciousness. We need to understand that they need not be the same. Einstein (sorry, Phil :-)) well understood the pitfalls of relative time. It is quite possible, and certainly not contradictory, for an outside observer to detect no time delay between two events, while the subjective experience may be of days, weeks or months. Or vice versa. Kind Regards Herman 49242 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/24/05 8:40:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Howard, to expand: the points you mentioned are certainly present when sati is present - what I am saying is that those alone are not sure indications of sati. Robert ========================== Thank you very much for elaborating, Robert! I take it that you are emphasizing the subtlety of sati, a subtlety that includes unobvious aspects, and that you are saying that often what passes for sati is not sati. If I understand you correctly, then I agree that what you say makes much sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49243 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:23pm Subject: Re: How to detect a problem child philofillet Hi all, > Please receive your gift of the Noble Eight Fold Path today, and > play > as you see fit. ¡¡Thanks for the gift of this sentence, Herman, because it summarizes the fuzzy goodfeeling rot that is at the heart of Dhamma as it is taught in the west today. Find an aspect of Dhamma that you vibe to, that ¡°jumps out at you" and go with it. If it feels good, it must be right. I think that is a Sheryl Crow song, so let¡¯s call this the Sheryl Crow school of Dhamma. It feels very nice to sit and generate thoughts of loving kindness, doesn¡¯t it? It feels good to be a loving person doesn¡¯t it? It feels good to know that one is becoming a better person, a more caring person, a more patient person. Our lives are becoming fulfilled! We can go to the great bliss farm in the sky (which we secretly long to believe in and call Nibanna) well assured that we have done what we were supposed to do ¨C have deep and meaningful and accomplished lives. Sit and meditate and try to generate sammathi (which can only be kusala and can't be generated out of a citta rooted in akusala) So what if concentration without right understanding is akusala and will only lead to more ignorance and suffering? We start where we are, not where we want to be! Go for it! Sit and see what happens. Play with Dhamma, be one with Dhamma, let the Dhamma be with you, grow into it, get comfortable with it, not by patiently understanding it but by getting one's hands on it and one's bottom into it and playing with it! Meanwhile, ignorance deepens, lust (lobha) deepens because the approach to Dhamma is drenced in lobha, drenched in the desire for comfort, the desire for wisdom. And thus instead of moving by small and patients steps towards liberation, we just wrap ourselves deeper and deeper into the blankets of suffering, thinking it feels good. Goodfeeling foolishness and a sad but predictable (predicted by the Buddha) squandering of the sublime gift of Dhamma bestowed upon us through the great compassion of the Buddham Phil 49244 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. philofillet Hi Nina, and all >>> A. Sujin: Sati is directly aware of the characteristic of the reality which is appearing, so that its true nature can be understood at that moment. Thus we can see the difference between theoretical understanding and paññ?Ewhich directly understands the characteristic of the reality which is appearing. Everybody can find out for himself what level of understanding he has. Nina, listening to the talks from India and Sri Lanka 2001 there have been a couple of times people (one a man from Sri Lanka, and one a woman from Thailand, I think) brought up that they can be aware of the characteristics of anger, of dosa in a way that while not a direct understanding of the reality, is still more than just book understanding. In the case of the woman, Acharn Sujin said "but who is aware?" and of course the answer is that there is the self that is aware. But it seems to me that even if there is self involved, as it will be inevitably until we are sotapanna, there can still be value in becoming aware, even through just thinking about it, of the anger arising. Perhaps it can save us from striking someone, or shouting. In that case, isn't avoiding akusala kamma patha of value even if there is wrong view involved? In the case of the man, Jon and he are talking, and the man says something like I have said above, about the value of checking one's anger. Jon points out that there is a big difference between this checking one's anger, and directly understanding its characteristice. To tell the truth, I don't know what it means to directly understand the characteristics of the anger to any degree deeper than this feeling it arising it and checking it. Of course I don't, because sati has not been developed to that degree yet. So I am not fretting and I am posting this only as an observation on where I am now, not as a question about how to have more sati! But, as I've said before, I do think Acharn Sujin could be a bit more supportive of those of us who deal a lot with the arising of akusala kamma patha (akusala to the degree of moral transgression) by agreeing that even if there is wrong understanding of self, it is good to avoid transgression. I know there is right understanding when she doesn't say to do this - I suspect she understands that there is so much concern about one's self, about one's kamma, about one's destiny in future lives so even when it comes to akusala kamma patha we are wrapped up in a personal story about it. But I think there can be value in avoiding transgression, no matther how little understanding is involved. Just a thought I've been having... Phil 49245 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion egberdina Hi Andrew, Remember me ? :-) On 25/08/05, Andrew wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@z... wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > > > Nice to hear from you-- > > > > > Are pannatti mind-door objects "liable to" delude or induce lust > or > > > hate in a way that paramattha mind-door objects aren't? If so, is > > > this due to the 'own nature' of the paramattha objects in any way? > > > > Great question I think and my answer is 'no'--ignorance, desire and > aversion are just as likely to arise with regard to a concept, > designation or convention as to a paramattha dhamma. So the akusala > is real regardless of the object. Unfortunately. Corrections > welcome. > > Hi Mike > > Thanks for your comments ... very helpful. > > I think the English translation "objects liable to cause delusion" > has a connotation that there is some 'delusion' characteristic in the > object itself which, as you say, is not correct. An example of the > dangers of trying to read the suttas at face value and without > reference to explanatory material and the overall 'big picture'? > This is a statement about the purpose behind hearing the Dhamma. From the Dhammapada. Better than if there were thousands of meaningless words is one meaningful word that on hearing brings peace. Better than if there were thousands of meaningless verses is one meaningful verse that on hearing brings peace. And better than chanting hundreds of meaningless verses is one Dhamma-saying that on hearing brings peace. Of course, the Dhammapada itself can be an object likely to cause delusion. Especially if one uncritically accepts its opening message that the mind is the forerunner of all states. That message being quite contrary to anything the Buddha taught about dependent origination, as found in some Suttas. I was amused by your suggestion of the dangers of reading the suttas unaided by commentaries and the like. It reminded me of the frequent reminders on this site when I first joined, about the dangers of meditation. Perhaps the Noble Eight Fold Path is better rendered as the Dangerous Eight Fold Path. :-) Kind Regards Herman 49246 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:52pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control philofillet Hi Matheesha > Ph: how > > on earth there can be control when there is no self? > > > M: :) , yes, yes, there is no control in an ultimate sense! You seem > to have gotten rid of conventional thinking altogether! The concept of > control is present and used in a conventional sense. I dont think > anyone here is saying anything to the contrary. OK, thanks. And to tell the truth I only read a few posts in the thread and one of them contained the "but how can you drive a car without control" comment which always appears and which always irritates me for some reason. But I'm a very irritable person! And I do think there is value when discussing Dhamma to get as close to the ultimate sense of people and things as quickly as possible, even if it's all at the intellectual level. This is probably because all of my sutta reading this year has been in the samyutta nikaya, which is almost entirely in ultimate terms, and I listen to Acharn Sujin and study Abhidhamma as well. I am being conditioned to be an ultimate truth kind of fellow. Phil 49247 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Herman) - In a message dated 8/24/05 10:24:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all, > Please receive your gift of the Noble Eight Fold Path today, and > play > as you see fit. ¡¡Thanks for the gift of this sentence, Herman, because it summarizes the fuzzy goodfeeling rot that is at the heart of Dhamma as it is taught in the west today. Find an aspect of Dhamma that you vibe to, that ¡°jumps out at you" and go with it. If it feels good, it must be right. I think that is a Sheryl Crow song, so let¡¯s call this the Sheryl Crow school of Dhamma. It feels very nice to sit and generate thoughts of loving kindness, doesn¡¯t it? It feels good to be a loving person doesn¡¯t it? It feels good to know that one is becoming a better person, a more caring person, a more patient person. Our lives are becoming fulfilled! We can go to the great bliss farm in the sky (which we secretly long to believe in and call Nibanna) well assured that we have done what we were supposed to do ¨C have deep and meaningful and accomplished lives. Sit and meditate and try to generate sammathi (which can only be kusala and can't be generated out of a citta rooted in akusala) So what if concentration without right understanding is akusala and will only lead to more ignorance and suffering? We start where we are, not where we want to be! -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, how about that, Phil! So, you ave managed to include me in your sarcastic diatribe! It seems you are in a testy mood today, my friend! Is that the effect your "oh so correct" interpretation of the Dhamma is having on you? In the foregoing you manage to make some fun of metta as well. I think that you might consider that a person who has lovingkindness in his/her heart is in a rather "good place", and I urge you to not give it such short shrift. ------------------------------------------- Go for it! Sit and see what happens. Play with Dhamma, be one with Dhamma, let the Dhamma be with you, grow into it, get comfortable with it, not by patiently understanding it but by getting one's hands on it and one's bottom into it and playing with it! Meanwhile, ignorance deepens, lust (lobha) deepens because the approach to Dhamma is drenced in lobha, drenched in the desire for comfort, the desire for wisdom. And thus instead of moving by small and patients steps towards liberation, we just wrap ourselves deeper and deeper into the blankets of suffering, thinking it feels good. Goodfeeling foolishness and a sad but predictable (predicted by the Buddha) squandering of the sublime gift of Dhamma bestowed upon us through the great compassion of the Buddham Phil ========================== I sincerely hope that your mood lightens soon, Phil. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49248 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child egberdina Hi Phil, Dear oh dear oh dear. It is amazing beyond comprehension that you read all that you wrote down below into my very brief message. But that's how it is, and onwards we roll. You, me, and Sheryl Crow on a hiding to nowhere. May the peace of the Lord be with you always. Is that any better :-) ? Kind Regards Herman On 25/08/05, Philip wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Please receive your gift of the Noble Eight Fold Path today, and > > play > > as you see fit. > > ¡¡Thanks for the gift of this sentence, Herman, because it > summarizes the fuzzy goodfeeling rot that is at the heart of Dhamma > as it is taught in the west today. > > Find an aspect of Dhamma that you vibe to, that ¡°jumps out at > you" and go with it. If it feels good, it must be right. I think > that is a Sheryl Crow song, so let¡¯s call this the Sheryl Crow > school of Dhamma. It feels very nice to sit and generate thoughts of > loving kindness, doesn¡¯t it? It feels good to be a loving person > doesn¡¯t it? It feels good to know that one is becoming a better > person, a more caring person, a more patient person. Our lives are > becoming fulfilled! We can go to the great bliss farm in the sky > (which we secretly long to believe in and call Nibanna) well assured > that we have done what we were supposed to do ¨C have deep and > meaningful and accomplished lives. Sit and meditate and try to > generate sammathi (which can only be kusala and can't be generated > out of a citta rooted in akusala) So what if concentration without > right understanding is akusala and will only lead to more ignorance > and suffering? We start where we are, not where we want to be! Go > for it! Sit and see what happens. Play with Dhamma, be one with > Dhamma, let the Dhamma be with you, grow into it, get comfortable > with it, not by patiently understanding it but by getting one's > hands on it and one's bottom into it and playing with it! > > Meanwhile, ignorance deepens, lust (lobha) deepens because the > approach to Dhamma is drenced in lobha, drenched in the desire for > comfort, the desire for wisdom. And thus instead of moving by small > and patients steps towards liberation, we just wrap ourselves deeper > and deeper into the blankets of suffering, thinking it feels good. > > Goodfeeling foolishness and a sad but predictable (predicted by > the Buddha) squandering of the sublime gift of Dhamma bestowed upon > us through the great compassion of the Buddham > > Phil > 49249 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Meaning of 'Sati' rjkjp1 Dear Howard, That is exactly what I am saying! I know from my own experience that I have the tendency to want to believe that sati is not only more frequent than the actual case, but that also that I can make it appear pretty much by dint of will. And those ideas are what subtle wrong view is... Robert dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/24/05 8:40:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > Dear Howard, > to expand: the points you mentioned are certainly present when sati > is present - what I am saying is that those alone are not sure > indications of sati. > Robert > ========================== > Thank you very much for elaborating, Robert! I take it that you are > emphasizing the subtlety of sati, a subtlety that includes unobvious aspects, and > that you are saying that often what passes for sati is not sati. If I > understand you correctly, then I agree that what you say makes much sense. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49250 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? jonoabb Hi Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > My darling wife was in hospital yesterday. (If I ever discover that > there is a Supreme Being responsible for women's anatomy I'm going to > hold him seriously accountable). > > She was under general anaesthetic for around an hour. Sorry to hear about Vicki's visit to the hospital. Please wish her a speedy recovery from Sarah and me. While I am writing, just a couple of quick observations on your post... > I do not think there is an Abhidhamma position on what happened during > that time, but the following seems reasonable. From an Abhidhamma point of view, whatever 'happened' at that time was just more of the same as what is 'happening' now, but in different combinations and sequence ;-)) > There are at least two aspects to time. There are, no doubt, better > ways to refer to them but I'll refer to them as subjective time and > objective time, s-time and o-time for short. These are not so much two aspects of the one thing ('time') as two different concepts. Subjective 'time' is infinitely variable, for ovbious reasosn, while objective 'time' is subject to the laws of physics/science. But both are concpetual, wouldn't you say? Jon 49251 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? egberdina Hi Jon, I have passed on your and Sarah's good wishes to Vicki. She was very pleased. > > From an Abhidhamma point of view, whatever 'happened' at that time was > just more of the same as what is 'happening' now, but in different > combinations and sequence ;-)) == Sounds good to me. == > > > There are at least two aspects to time. There are, no doubt, better > > ways to refer to them but I'll refer to them as subjective time and > > objective time, s-time and o-time for short. > > These are not so much two aspects of the one thing ('time') as two > different concepts. Subjective 'time' is infinitely variable, for ovbious > reasosn, while objective 'time' is subject to the laws of physics/science. > But both are concpetual, wouldn't you say? > == If by "conceptual" you mean "constructed by the mind" I agree wholeheartedly. (and I'm sure we'd both agree that that mind is dependently arisen). How is it to be back in Hong Kong? If Sarah is used to having the house to herself, best keep out of her way :-) Kind Regards Herman 49252 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? dhamma_service Hi Robert, [lots of snipping to make Sarah happy] R: I am saying that according to the Dhamma all states last only for an instant. FK: no disagreement here R: The Buddha explained all realms- grouped as kama-loka, rupa- loka and arupa loka. The idea of intermediate place in between these realms is outside of what yteh Buddha taught, it is inventing something else, and that invention comes from some idea of atta and nicca. Fk: so let's say the escrow/intermediate state is a special class of arupa loka. Let's say what we conventionally speak of as two lives is actually 3 lives. Life 1 ends, life 2 lasts up to 40 days in arupa loka, and then life 2 ends and life 3 begins. Problem solved. Now hopefully you can move past this fixation on atta and nicca and move on to meaningful discussion. There are numerous ways one could explain an intermediate life without violating atta and nicca. R: Katthavatthu - part of the Tipitaka (i.e the Pali cannon). Fk: OK. Perhaps I mistakenly believed sutta pitaka to be equivalent to the pali canon (can we get an official ruling on this from someone?). I meant sutta pitaka as my reference. All parties would consider that word of the Buddha, whereas the abidhamma pitaka does not have unanimous support from the opposing parties. As far as logical conclusions, I'm not trying to posit an ironclad kosher theory of antarabhava and draw logical conclusions about it, or even prove its existence to anyone other than myself. What I'm saying is that if one were to attain the divine eye, and witness events that contradict the other divine eye meditators who believe in antarabhava, then that would get their attention and they'd want to compare notes with you. You're not going to get far and elicit any meaningful discussion by insulting them as paravadi, responding to every single piece of evidence they bring up with "that's atta, nicca, and I know it's true because my scripture says so". You're welcome to include excerpts of any of my posts anonymously, not because I don't stand behind what I say but because I don't want to get drawn into long discussions. -fk 49253 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, --------------------------------- KH: > > I feel sure, however, that there cannot be > correct understanding of suttas unless there is correct understanding > of Abhidhamma. In essence, all Dhamma is Abhidhamma. > > ................. M: Hmm.. I'm not sure if the suttas, ie conversations that the buddha had with various people always meant that the listener had to have abhidhamma knowledge. That would be appropriate in some instances but in others I would have thought it would be rather impractical. --------------------------------- This is the way I see it: From the time the Buddha first taught, "All conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta," he radically altered the way people understood the world. From that time on - regardless of whether they comprehended deeply or superficially - people knew that the Buddha's conventional-sounding words actually conveyed a meaning that was profoundly unconventional, deep in meaning, and concerning anatta. I'm not so sure the same applies today. Today, most "learned authorities" classify Buddhism with other religions as if, ultimately, they all teach the same thing. And there are "Buddhists" who share that view. So, in my opinion, Abhidhamma knowledge is inseparable from 'right hearing' of the Buddha's words. It is not helpful to hear, "All conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta," unless you know what a conditioned dhamma is. It is not a tree or a car or a person. Many Buddhists today don't have Abhidhamma knowledge, and so, unlike in the Buddha's day, they hear and teach the Dhamma in a totally wrong way. ------------------------ . . . M: > Yes, I think I understand: if there is no doer, and no doing what more is there to do? I would however say that there is something to be done, further than just understanding. That is the irradication of defilements. No amount of understanding is going to do away with that. That takes something more than just knowledge. ------------------------ Do you mean that the eradication of defilements depends on more than just insight? I think that is true in one sense; namely, that each of the eight Path factors (not just Right Understanding) plays a roll in eradication. But remember, those factors are only cetasikas - arising with and dependent upon their forerunner, right understanding. Apart from them, there is no eradicating of any kind. That applies to all moments in life: there is no 'doing' apart from the arising and falling away of conditioned dhammas. It is possible that you did NOT mean, 'the eradication of defilements depends on more than just insight.' Perhaps your meaning was, 'the eradication of defilements depends on more than just knowledge: it depends on insight.' If that is what you meant, and if what you say below can be read in that light, then I agree. ---------------------- M: > This is why I made the distinction of understanding everything about striking a nail with a hammer, and actually striking it as well. One can know everything an arahath knows, but still not be an arahath as is mentioned in the suttas ('a man who sees the water well in the desert, but not one who has drunk from it yet'). Sorry cant find the refferences right away. --------------------- On another matter, you wrote: -------------------------------------- > Eightfold path consciousness is conditioned by the path, and so is the phala which follows that. Only nibbaana is unconditioned. I might possibly be mistaken here, so please correct me if this is the case. But I do understand that the magga and phala citta are lokuttara? > -------------------------------------- Checking with my Buddhist Dictionary, I see that we are both right: "LOKUTTARA: 'supramundane', is a term for the 4 paths and 4 fruitions . . . . with Nibbana as ninth. Hence one speaks of '9 supramundane things' . . " Remember, the Path and Fruition of the Path are just cittas - single moments of consciousness. ----------- M: > It's interesting that a magga citta is called lokuttara jhaana. So it is not simply a jhana which is reached by an ariya. Would those be mundane jhana? ----------- Yes, that is the way I understand them. Ken H 49254 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] How to detect a problem child dhamma_service Sadhu, Herman, Sadhu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- H wrote: You know you have a problem child on your hands when you give them a gift and they tell you they must wait for the right conditions to arise before they can play with it. Such a child does not appreciate the receiving of the gift as the right condition. Please receive your gift of the Noble Eight Fold Path today, and play as you see fit. ----------------------------------------------- [carefully snipping what I can to make Sarah happy, noticing that I actually snipped very little. Some email header info, a "Hi All", "kind regards Herman". Oh no! noticing that my snip prelude text length is about to exceed the amount of Herman's text that I snipped! Oh NO! Sarah's going to be angry! I better stop now and end the rambling... but wait, I think I've just figured out a way to evade the trim police! Since I'm technically still in my "snip announcement", I can always plead that as a legitimate defense and avoid the dreaded trim reprimand. This is like a filibuster. I can talk all day and Sarah can't stop me. However, I'm a nice guy and I won't abuse this loophole... very frequently] -fk 49255 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: How to detect a problem child philofillet Hi Herman > May the peace of the Lord be with you always. > > Is that any better :-) ? Hmm....I think I would choose understanding over peace. Peace comes and goes and depends on the eight worldly conditions, usually. Peace is conceptual and can be all about lobha, about desiring comfort or perhaps kusala calmness. Understanding is a reality, and when there is a moment of understanding, it is accumulated in a lasting way. I went off there a bit, which I will do on occasion. A lot of dosa has been accumulated and it will have its way. Sorry and thanks in advance for your understanding, Herman. Conditions at work. I don't want to pretend to be affable when I'm irritated. I can tell that you're a nice person and that I'd enjoy having a coffee with you and discussing psychology or science or world politics or whatever, but when it comes to Dhamma I suspect I will become increasingly non- compromising about the truth for the time being. We'll see what happens. I suspect I will go through a stage of being irritable here and by being aware of this irritability understanding will develop in a way that will make me more tolerant. I suspect that's the case - no way to know and no point in thinking about it after I post this here. I thought afterwards that I usually say that even Dhamma with wrong understanding is better than no Dhamma at all. Even "metta" without understanding brings people peace of mind, and peace of mind is good. But peace of mind without understanding is not the Buddha's way to liberation. So do we *want* Dhamma in order to feel better, to be peaceful, or does understanding of Dhamma arise in a conditioned way so that there is a beginning of progress towards liberation? That's the question, I guess. Phil p.s "problem child" reminded me that when I took a personality test that James linked us to I was a "schoolyard bully" type, which makes sense to me. There is a lot of lust, a lot of hatred accumulated - but it's just conditioned nama so nothing to fret about - that would just make for more lobha and dosa, not less. Understanding is the only way out. 49256 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion corvus121 Hi Herman You wrote: > Remember me ? :-) Yes, I do, Herman. How could I forget? (-: Then: > I was amused by your suggestion of the dangers of reading the suttas > unaided by commentaries and the like. It reminded me of the frequent > reminders on this site when I first joined, about the dangers of > meditation. Perhaps the Noble Eight Fold Path is better rendered as > the Dangerous Eight Fold Path. :-) Didn't the Buddha talk about the dangers of wrongly understanding the Dhamma ... grasping the snake by the tail? And wasn't that in ... a sutta? Haven't you yourself said often enough how imprecise a tool language is? And translations? So why the amused surprise when I suggest that the suttas are best understood with the help of explanatory materials? I don't get it. I don't deny that there may be some people who can read a translation of the Buddhaword and understanding thereafter arises (without further ado) and passes away by conditions. But I don't seem to be among them. My mind mostly fails to comprehend the significance of the words or meanders down alternative interpretations, ending up further confused. Danger? Didn't the Buddha say in the Sutta Nipata that, if only we knew the damage done by wrong speech, we would treat our tongues as if they were sharp axes? (or words to that effect). So, yes, I think you've got a point about danger ... And if the danger applies to speech and understanding, I can't see why it wouldn't apply to "meditation" as well. Or is "meditation" above reproach and questioning its value somehow blasphemous? Best wishes Andrew T 49257 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child philofillet Hi Howard > I sincerely hope that your mood lightens soon, Phil. Sorry for disturbing the peace, Howard. It has happened before and it will probably happen again. I disagree with a lot of what you say about Dhamma, but there is no questioning the courtesy and gentle consideration you show towards everyone. And the way you always demonstrate mudita, celebrating others' good fortune. You are a model that will hopefully come to condition my behaviour. Phil 49258 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha sarahprocter... Hi Azita & Nina, --- gazita2002 wrote: > hello Nina and Sarah, > > the Buddhist dictionary gives 'retrospective knowledge' for > paccavekkhana-nana; so could we say that P/cittas 'review'? .... S: the paccevekkana cittas I referred to are the ones arising after jhana cittas which 'review' the factors which arose and so on. .... > > this is unknown territory for me, BTW. I find both sides of the > discussion believable. if its a good story, I'll believe anything :-) > > If the yogavacara has to know the hindrances, maybe they are > known 'retrospectively' and that makes them concepts, even though > its reality that is being reviewed by the paccavekkhana cittas. .... S: I think we should leave aside the paccevekkana cittas for the discussion of samatha....a bit of a red herring I introduced. .... > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > It is clear that the object of jhana is a concept. But I am not so > sure that > > when the yogavacara .... S: (as a 'by the way', everytime I started to quote your comment, KS picked me up on the word 'yogavacara' and stressed it was 'anyone who has viriya to develop viriya parami....not doing something special') ... >>is developing calm and has to know many > dhammas, > > realities, it is merely about concepts. He has to know the > hindrances and > > these are dhammas, not concepts. > > I am not sure Kh Sujin used the words conceptual understanding, we > better > > ask for the exact quote in India. .... S: I think it's a good idea if you and Azita raise any qus with her then too. Her exact words when I quoted the comment about 'in samatha.....calm....hindrances.....jhana factors...' etc was 'all conceptual' and 'reflecting like now'. I came back to the point and raised questions in several different ways. For example, Steve's question (#32997) about when it's not satipatthana, whether the understanding of kusala and akusala is just thinking of concepts of kusala and akusala. I had told him I thought this was correct, (just like his earlier question about the understanding of impermanence). K. Sujin's reply confirmed this too: 'theoretical knowledge only'. I'll give more detailed quotes if and when I have time to listen to my tapes too. I don't think the words matter - theoretical, conceptual, understanding....and the words KS will use to one person in one situation will be different than for another. If we generally say it's 'conceptual' or 'theoretical', people will get quite the wrong idea and it'll sound like ordinary thinking, not thinking with panna and sati as you said. It reminds me of the discussions on na vattabaarammana - we don't usually mention it and just refer to present objects otherwise it leads to more confusion usually. After a discussion with me, a Thai lady heard and asked about it in the Thai session but she just brought the discussion back to seeing and visible object now. Sometimes it's the same with us....she'll say we'd better know when it's beyond our comprehension and will just lead to useless speculation. What is the reality now? ....... >>Paccevekkana cittas, what > exactly are .... They review the jhana cittas and so on, just like those after magga and phala cittas review lokuttara factors, object, defilements eradicated etc directly. But K.Sujin reminded me that my qu about whether the object of these (after jhana cittas) was concept or reality was beyond our comprehension and better be left aside. It's a good idea anyway if we all start lists of questions for K.Sujin in India. Thanks for the reminder. We will edit the tapes in due course and they have some excellent material. At the moment, we're trying to finish some others from last year. Metta, Sarah ======= 49259 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi Amr, I'm delighted to welcome a friend of James's from Egypt here. Many of us highly value his friendship too and his contributions from his deep reflections on the Buddha's teachings. I hope James will encourage you to study and reflect further on these teachings. You may also find it helpful to look at some of the 'useful posts' in the files under 'New to the List and Dhamma' and possibley 'Abhidhamma - beginners'. James will of course give you his own suggestions too. I can see that Dan's comments might sound pretty tough to any newcomer and I've joked with Dan before that I have to adopt a 'brace' position (like ducking under the seat)before reading some of his replies to me:). I assure you that his recent comments, like the one to James, are very mild compared to the 'old Dan' and that he really only sends them to his friends and those who he very selectively wishes to discuss the Buddha's teachings with. In other words, I think it's a kind of compliment to receive a Dan salvo. (That's how I take them anyway...). As for the question about Buddhaghosa....it is very controvesial. He is very highly regarded as one of the great authorities or ancient commentators on the Buddhist texts and so some of us do take his words very seriously. On the other hand, I quite understand that some people like James are very sceptical about what they read and find it helpful to challenge the 'established' point of view. All these challenges and discussions and questions about what really makes up our lives right now are what we are here to discuss. Many thanks to James for introducing you. Please ignore any posts or topics which are too technical or confusing for now and ask any questions (the more basic the better) for us to consider. Metta, Sarah p.s don't worry about your English, grammar or spelling....they're fine! Btw, we've never kicked anyone out here and don't intend to start doing so! Like in a large family, we try to get used to each other and learn to be as tolerant as possible of each other. As Herman said, it's sometimes difficult when we only communicate by internet to really understand the intentions of others. --- amro_88888888 wrote: > first .. hi am a new member ..... Dan u said " even though all I > intended with my post was to 49260 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:15am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] The characteristic of lobha can be known only when it appears. When we help someone else there are likely to be many moments of attachment in between the moments of true generosity. Are we pleased to be in the company of the person we help, are we attached to him? Are we pleased with “our own” kusala and do we expect something in return for our kindness? Mindfulness of realities is the only way to know the different moments of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness more clearly. Mindfulness will prevent us from deluding ourselves. There may be attachment even to kusala, to calm or to mindfulness, sati. We want to have a great deal of sati and we want it to last, but wanting to have sati is not sati, it is clinging. We should not avoid being aware of such clinging when it appears, because only if we know it as it is can it be eradicated. ***** [Attachment(lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49261 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paññaa of samatha, attention Rob K nilovg Hi Sarah, Azita, Rob K, very good idea to keep it for India. But since Rob K is not coming (I wish next year, when Alan is also coming!), it would be nice to have his input. op 25-08-2005 08:43 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: Azita: If the yogavacara has to know the hindrances, maybe they are >> known 'retrospectively' and that makes them concepts, even though >> its reality that is being reviewed by the paccavekkhana cittas. > .... > S: I think we should leave aside the paccevekkana cittas for the > discussion of samatha....a bit of a red herring I introduced. > .... >> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom >> wrote: >>> It is clear that the object of jhana is a concept. But I am not so >> sure that >>> when the yogavacara > .... > S: (as a 'by the way', everytime I started to quote your comment, KS > picked me up on the word 'yogavacara' and stressed it was 'anyone who has > viriya to develop viriya parami....not doing something special') ------ N: I just take this word from the commentary, sometimes translated as meditator. Another interpretation: the citta that develops... -------- N: is developing calm and has to know many >> dhammas, >>> realities, it is merely about concepts. He has to know the >> hindrances and >>> these are dhammas, not concepts. >>> I am not sure Kh Sujin used the words conceptual understanding, we >> better >>> ask for the exact quote in India. > .... > S: I think it's a good idea if you and Azita raise any qus with her then > too. Her exact words when I quoted the comment about 'in > samatha.....calm....hindrances.....jhana factors...' etc was 'all > conceptual' and 'reflecting like now'. > > I came back to the point and raised questions in several different ways. > For example, Steve's question (#32997) about when it's not satipatthana, > whether the understanding of kusala and akusala is just thinking of > concepts of kusala and akusala. I had told him I thought this was correct, > (just like his earlier question about the understanding of impermanence). > K. Sujin's reply confirmed this too: 'theoretical knowledge only'. > > I don't think the words matter - theoretical, conceptual, > understanding....and the words KS will use to one person in one situation > will be different than for another. If we generally say it's 'conceptual' > or 'theoretical', people will get quite the wrong idea and it'll sound > like ordinary thinking, not thinking with panna and sati as you said. ------- N: This clarifies a lot for me. We get lost in words, often happens in discussions. A point for me: khandhas are present, past, future. I personally think that past rupa does not change into a concept. But, it cannot be object of satipatthana as we discussed in Bgk. When jhanacitta has fallen away I do not personally think that it changes into a concept. But here we have the difficult to understand term of paññatti. As you say: will be different than for another. > So, when we quote we have to be careful. It is understandable that they come over to some people like a dogma we have to believe lest we are heretics. We ourselves have to carefully investigate and doubts are bound to come up, but these will lessen when there can be direct awareness. Then we have no doubt what is a dhamma and what is a concept. ----- S: It reminds me of the discussions on na vattabaarammana - we don't usually > mention it and just refer to present objects otherwise it leads to more > confusion usually. ------- N: it is complicated for many, but it indicates: nibbaana reviewed, for example, does not change into a concept, it is na vattabaarammana for the citta with paññaa that reviews as we discussed with the Thais. -------- > >>> Paccevekkana cittas, what >> exactly are > .... > They review the jhana cittas and so on, just like those after magga and > phala cittas review lokuttara factors, object, defilements eradicated etc > directly. But K.Sujin reminded me that my qu about whether the object of > these (after jhana cittas) was concept or reality was beyond our > comprehension and better be left aside. ------- N: Yes, na vattabaarammana. -------- S: It's a good idea anyway if we all start lists of questions for K.Sujin in > India. Thanks for the reminder. ______ N: So, when we have a list of questions it is best for us to ask about the present reality. We can ask but perhaps not too much. When we think of visible object the object may not be a concept, all such questions I find difficult. Like to hear Rob. Nina. 49262 From: nina Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:40am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 186 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 186. [MATERIALITY] Text Vis.:186. Herein, the word 'whatever' includes without exception. 'Materiality' prevents over-generalization. Thus materiality is comprised without exception by the two expressions. -------- N: The Tiika elaborates on the expression Œwhatever ruupa¹ (ya.mkiñci ruupa.m). ŒWhatever¹ denotes everything without remainder, an all-inclusive treatment. However, the word ruupa is added and this indicates a limitation, it prevents over-generalization. The meaning is: all ruupas without exception are included in ruupa-khandha. They are the four great Elements and the derived ruupas. Of these it is said that they are: ---------- Text Vis.: Then he undertakes its exposition as 'past, future, and present,' etc.; for some of it is classed as past and some as future, and so on. So also in the case of feeling, and so on. --------- N: This is said of each of the five khandhas. ----------- Text Vis.: Herein, the materiality called (i) 'past' is fourfold, according to (a) extent, (b) continuity, (c) period, and (d) moment. Likewise (ii) the 'future' and (iii) the 'present'. ---------- N: These aspects will be further explained in the following sections. ****** Nina. 49263 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control nilovg Hi Herman, op 25-08-2005 01:29 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > > Just to make sure everybody understands that I do not believe in a > controlling self. I wrote a few weeks ago about the scientific > findings of Mr Libet. He demonstrated that awareness of volition > arises 1/2 second after the brain non-consciously generates that > volition. He also demonstrated that the mind plays little tricks and > generates the sequence of experience quite differently to what > actually happens. > > For me, this is scientific proof of anatta. That it follows 2600 years > after the Buddha first announced it demonstrates the enormity of the > Buddha's insight. If I remember correctly, Phil's advice was to > dispense with science, which I think a little strange. Is faith > preferable to knowing? I do not believe in the truth of anatta, I know > it to be true!!!! ----------- N:I know you are more sceintifically orientated. I do not have any affinity to science. Different accumulations. I think it confusing to compare the Dhamma with science, because science does not lead to detachment. In the suttas you will not find any scientific approach. Rob K has written about science and Buddhism before, maybe he can repeat it? You write: Is faith preferable to knowing? Faith is rather: confidence in kusala, confidence in the Dhamma but this is acquired and grows through understanding of the teachings. It never is blind faith or just believing. As to the word knowing you use, this is not scientific knowing but higher than that, it is deep, direct understanding that has been developed on and on through satipatthana. What do you think of this? You write: I do not believe in the truth of anatta, I know it to be true!!!! Yes, this is intellectual. But this is not enough. It cannot eradicate delusion, clinging to wrong view and other defilements. The only way: development of direct understanding of any dhamma appearing through the senses and the mind-door. Don't you agree? NIna. 49264 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:01am Subject: Pali resources christine_fo... Hello all, Anyone interested in studying Pali, or refreshing their knowledge of the language, may find the Pali Sub-forum of E-sangha worth a visit: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50 Among many other gems, there is the Downloadable and Searchable PED Pali-English Dictionary, as well as other on-line dictionaries. And, thanks to Ong Yong Peng, the moderator of the Yahoo Pali Group, the answers to all the exercises in the following text books can be found here: http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/palidd/ "Pâli Primer" by Lily de Silva "A New Course in Reading Pâli" by James W. Gair, W. S. Karunatillake "Introduction to Pâli" by A. K. Warder "An Elementary Pâli" Course by Ven. Narada Thera "The New Pâli Course" by Ven. A. P. Buddhadatta metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49265 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James (& Dan), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? .... S: I understood that Buddhaghosa had access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese and Pali but that the various commentaries were by this time only available for the main part in Sinhalese. From these, Buddhaghosa makes it clear that he took 'the substance of the old commentaries' which were all put at his disposal to work on. Perhaps we've read different accounts? Metta, Sarah ====== 49266 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James, I find it helpful to reflect more on metta with you. I might feel some irritation at something someone has said or done, but as soon as there's metta or some recollection of its value, then immediately the annoyance dissipates and there's a genuine concern for the other's welfare or happiness. Even writing about it is a good reminder for me. I think such reminders and any metta arising now can help us to be more understanding and tolerant of each other's foibles. Of course, there's plenty of room for growth of all wholesome states.....and it has to be with detachment and not clinging to these, I really think. .... --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Yes, I am back in Egypt. Thanks for the well wishes. > Students don't start attending until Sept. 11 so I have some time to > prepare. .... S: I'm sure you always prepare well and have good material for your students, James. It's quite strange for me to not be preparing for students as usual....mixed feelings, I'd say. I've always learnt a lot from having children and teenagers around me:). .... > James: No need to apologize. Hope you had a nice vacation. ... S: Thanks James for your 'spontaneous' good wishes always. ... > James: I think your impression of metta is far too idealistic. The > generation of metta doesn't have to be that entirely selfless, in my > opinion. After all, the Buddha in the Metta Sutta listed 11 > benefits to those who practice metta: > ""One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is > dear to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect > one. Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind > gains concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies > unconfused and -- if penetrating no higher -- is headed for the > Brahma worlds." ... S: Good quote. I think the Buddha pointed out all kinds of truths. Isn't it true that when there's metta and we're genuinely concerned for others' welfare that we sleep well and are dear to those around? Isn't equally true that when we're angry or lost in our own world that we become agitated and restless and are definitely not so dear to others? When there's metta, there's no thought of the benefits (the thoughts are for others), but they follow anyway. .... > Now, why would the Buddha list these 11 benefits to his monks except > to encourage them to cultivate metta for their own benefit? He > didn't say "Cultivate metta because it is the right thing to do- not > because you can expect any personal benefits". ... S: I think the Buddha pointed out the benefits of all wholesome states. We can see the value and understand about the benefits, but that doesn't mean they are being developed for 'me'. For example, if we try to have metta in order to sleep well, it will most likely be attachment rather than metta at such a time. .... > > <...>>Am I clinging to metta? > > .... > > S: I think we can only answer this for ourselves when there's > awareness. > > .... > > James: ;-)) Smooth answer. But I don't think you are being very > honest about what you think. After all, I asked you what you > thought about it, not what I thought about it. .... S: I wasn't trying to be smooth;-)). When we think of a long occurrence of riding a bike or sitting in a taxi, there are bound to be so many different emotions and mental states. We can only find out the answers for ourselves. However, if we sit on a bike or on a cushion or on the sofa and try to generate metta for all beings, I think it's likely to be misguided for the reasons Phil discussed. .... <..> > James: Could be. Could also be that my previous metta meditations > conditioned this occurance, or at least gave me the insight to > recognize it for what it was. You shouldn't underestimate the > conditioning influence of meditation. .... S: Can there be meditation even now as we talk? Can we say that such insights have been conditioned by previous metta arising, wise reflections and awareness of what metta is and isn't no matter when or where? Thanks for helping me to consider more and prompting opportunities for metta to arise even now as we write. As you said to Phil, even when we wish each other a safe trip or any other well-being, there can be metta. I hope you can share some further examples from your daily life like the story about the teacher and what you learnt from it. Many thanks for introducing your friend here too. Metta, Sarah =============== 49267 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > [lots of snipping to make Sarah happy] > R: > I am saying that according to the Dhamma all states last only for an > instant. > FK: no disagreement here > > R: > The Buddha explained all realms- grouped as kama-loka, rupa- > loka and arupa loka. The idea of intermediate place in between these > realms is outside of what the Buddha taught, it is inventing > something else, and that invention comes from some idea of atta and > nicca. > > Fk: so let's say the escrow/intermediate state is a special class of arupa > loka. Let's say what we conventionally speak of as two lives is actually 3 > lives. Life 1 ends, life 2 lasts up to 40 days in arupa loka, and then life > 2 ends and life 3 begins. Problem solved. ++++++++++++ Dear Frank, I do not think the problem is solved. 1.To attain arupaBrahma world one must have been skilled in the arupa jhanas and maintained these before death. A very rare thing to be so born. 2. If a being was born in the arupabrhama world the life span is hundreds of aeons of time. Not 40 days. 3. If one was born in the arupabrahma world it is a different life. Why would someone still be worried about cremating the dead human body etc that you spoke about in your last post. _______________ > Now hopefully you can move past this fixation on atta and nicca and move on > to meaningful discussion. There are numerous ways one could explain an > intermediate life without violating atta and nicca. ++++++++ Please explain how? _________________________ > > R: > Katthavatthu - part of the Tipitaka (i.e the Pali cannon). > > Fk: OK. Perhaps I mistakenly believed sutta pitaka to be equivalent to the > pali canon (can we get an official ruling on this from someone?). I meant > sutta pitaka as my reference. All parties would consider that word of the > Buddha, whereas the abidhamma pitaka does not have unanimous support from > the opposing parties. > ==== Well there is no doubt it is part of the Theravada canon. _____________ > > As far as logical conclusions, I'm not trying to posit an ironclad kosher > theory of antarabhava and draw logical conclusions about it, or even prove > its existence to anyone other than myself. What I'm saying is that if one > were to attain the divine eye, and witness events that contradict the other > divine eye meditators who believe in antarabhava, then that would get their > attention and they'd want to compare notes with you. You're not going to get > far and elicit any meaningful discussion by insulting them as paravadi, > responding to every single piece of evidence they bring up with "that's > atta, nicca, and I know it's true because my scripture says so". ++++++++++ We could have discussions, as I have had, with disciples of Da free john advota (whatver his latest name is) disciples who say he can make things appear from nothing and do all kinds of miracles: and they have seen it! No one could make them believe differently. People can tell you they have the divine eye that sees beings passing away and staying for forty days in an intermediate state, and it still comes down to your own bias as to whether you believe it or not. My very strong bias is that I trust the teachings of the elders, the Theravada, as recited and presrved through the millenia. And the idea of antarabhava is not a small matter; it is, I believe, involved with the idea of a lasting being. Robertk 49268 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:55pm Subject: Quite Untouched ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Non-'I'-dentification with Sense-input leads to Bliss! Touched by contact, while fully aware and clearly comprehending, the learned & well trained Noble Disciple correctly understands it as it really is: By the sensitivity of these 6 senses: The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind, there emerges momentary contact.. From this contact arises instantly both sensation, perception, feeling, and experience! All this is momentary, blinking, and transient. What is momentary, blinking, & transient is impermanent & suffering... What is impermanent & suffering cannot ever be any self! Therefore such Noble Disciple knows: 'This is not mine', 'This is not what I am', 'This is not My Self'... Neither thoughts of 'I am', nor 'I am this', nor 'I am that', nor 'This is Mine', nor 'In the future I will be thus' ever occurs to such Noble One... Thus not identifying with anything, such one does not cling to anything, whether internal or external. Therefore, when whatever he does not identify with changes, decays, fades away, and finally vanishes, no panic arises in him, he remains quite unperturbed, detached, fully aware and clearly comprehending: 'There is this Change! All constructions fall apart!' Not clinging means complete mental release! Release means supreme freedom! Freedom means stilled ease of Peace! Peace means sublime Bliss! This - exactly this - is the end of Suffering! Nibbana ... !!! Simile: Just because a computer have different inputs from the mouse, keyboard, floppy, microphone & internet does not itself place an 'Ego', nor deposit an 'I', nor imbed a 'Me' somewhere hidden inside the electronic circuits! The notion "Receiving and processing inputs, I thereby Am..." is quite false... No computer possesses a Self. All computers are impersonal, void of identity! Exactly so with any sentient being having 6 sense inputs from the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind, this does not itself place an 'Ego', nor deposit an 'I', nor imbed a 'Me' somewhere hidden inside the body frame! The notion "Perceiving & sensing contacts, I thereby Am..." is also quite false... No sentient beings possesses a Self. All beings are impersonal, void of identity! ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49269 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:00am Subject: Dhamma Threrad ( 504 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. Hetu or root dhamma is one of these 7 stocks. There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. They are 1. lobha or 'root of attachment' 2. dosa or 'root of aversion' 3. moha or 'root of ignorance' 4. alobha or 'root of non-attachment' 5. adosa or 'root of non-aversion' 6. amoha or 'root of non-ignorance' There are 89 cittas in total. 18 cittas do not have any root and they are called rootless consciousness. 71 cittas are rooted consciousness. They are 1. 2 ekahetuka cittas or 2 single-rooted consciousness 2.22 dvihetuka cittas or 22 double-rooted consciousness 3.47 tihetuka cittas or 47 triple-rooted consciousness ----- 71 sahetuka cittas or rooted consciousness 1. 2 ekahetuka cittas (single-rooted consciousness) These 2 cittas are uddhacca citta or 'wandering mind' and vicikicchaa citta or 'suspicious mind'. Their full names are 1) upekkha saha gatam uddhacca sampayutta akusala citta 2) upekkha saha gatam vicikicchaa sampayutta akusala citta The first citta does not have dosa, lobha. It just has moha as a root. Like this, the 2nd citta also does not have lobha and dosa. The only root it has is moha root. So both cittas are called single- rooted consciousness or ekahetuka cittas. 2. 22 dvihetuka cittas (double-rooted consciousness) There are 10 akusala cittas and 12 kusala cittas in these 22 cittas. a) 10 akusala cittas ( 8 lobha cittas and 2 dosa cittas ) In 8 lobha cittas there are moha and lobha as roots. So they are dvihetuka cittas or double-rooted consciousness. Likewise 2 dosa cittas have moha and dosa as roots and they are also dvihetuka cittas. b) 12 kusala cittas ( 4 mahakusala, 4 mahavipaka, 4 mahakiriya) They all have alobha and adosa as roots. They do not have amoha. So they are called dvihetuka cittas. Altogether there are 22 dvihetuka cittas. 3. 47 tihetuka cittas ( 47 triple-rooted consciousness ) All these 47 cittas have amoha, alobha, and adosa as roots. So they are called tihetuka cittas or triple-rooted consciousness. These 47 cittas are a) 8 lokuttara cittas b) 12 aruupa jhana cittas c) 15 ruupa jhana cittas d) 12 nana vippayutta kama cittas ------ 47 tihetuka cittas Among these 47 cittas there are 4 arupavipaka cittas, 5 rupavipaka cittas and 4 kamavipaka cittas. These 13 cittas can serve as patisandhi cittas. When beings are reborn with these 13 patisandhi cittas they are called tihetuka patisandhi. Only these beings can have enlightenment in their current life. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49270 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) philofillet Hello all > The characteristic of lobha can be known only when it appears. But as Acharn Sujin says we are usually just thinking about it. This is lobha, this is dosa. That is not knowing the characteristic. > When we help someone else there are likely to be many moments > of attachment in between the moments of true generosity. Are we > pleased to be in the company of the person we help, are we > attached to him? Are we pleased with "our own?Ekusala and do > we expect something in return for our kindness? Perhaps this is where the answer to Howard's question about how studying nama and rupa helps to purify sila. We cannot intend to have purer sila, but we can gradually come to know when there is lobha behind the supposed sila. As the defilements behind our good deeds are gradually eradicated, the sila becomes purer. And we can't eradicate the defilements without knowing them. That is repeated so often in samyutta nikaya. (Though it's usually referring to a "knowing" that only ariyans are capable of.) > Mindfulness of realities is the only way to know the different moments of > wholesomeness and unwholesomeness more clearly. Mindfulness > will prevent us from deluding ourselves. Recently when I listen to the talks, I notice that Acharn Sujin seems to de-emphasisize the importance or likelihood of being able to know kusala from akusala. It will just be thinking at our level of panna. First, knowing nama from rupa, which is not as easy or obvious as it sounds. This will help us have the detachment that is necessary to condition deeper understanding's development. So best not to think too much about whether lobha is behind a good deed or not. Assume that it is at times (personally, I assume it's most of the time) and move ahead with one's good deeds when one has the opportunity. "As long as we don't really understand that they are anatta, what is the good of knowing whether they are kusala or akusala cittas?" (paraphrased) is another teaching I've heard. > There may be attachment even to kusala, to calm or to > mindfulness, sati. We want to have a great deal of sati and we > want it to last, but wanting to have sati is not sati, it is clinging. This is such a fundamental point. "Wanting to have sati is not sati, it is clinging." People refer to chanda to cover this point, but referring to chanda to prove one's point is just more clinging, I'd say. > We should not avoid being aware of such clinging when it appears, > because only if we know it as it is can it be eradicated. Not for a long long long long long long time so best not to be in a hurry. Phil 49271 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] How to detect a problem child.......and a problem poster!! sarahprocter... Hi Frank, --- frank wrote: > [carefully snipping what I can to make Sarah happy, noticing that I > actually > snipped very little. Some email header info, a "Hi All", "kind regards > Herman". Oh no! noticing that my snip prelude text length is about to > exceed > the amount of Herman's text that I snipped! Oh NO! Sarah's going to be > angry! I better stop now and end the rambling... but wait, I think I've > just > figured out a way to evade the trim police! Since I'm technically still > in > my "snip announcement", I can always plead that as a legitimate defense > and > avoid the dreaded trim reprimand. This is like a filibuster. I can talk > all > day and Sarah can't stop me. However, I'm a nice guy and I won't abuse > this > loophole... very frequently] .... S: :-):-) Good to see you in such good humour and giving everyone a good reminder for us too:-). The funny thing is that I have no recollection of ever having given you a trim reminder....must be years ago (and never angrily, I'm sure!!) Metta, Sarah p.s thanks for continuing the other thread - I'm finding it interesting to follow your reasoning. ========= 49272 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi, Frank, Robert, and all - Dr Peter Harvey has reported that some of the early schools other than Theravada accepted that there are intermediate states (of more than a moment's duration). Harvey quoted a Pali sutta that likened the rebirth process to a spark from a wielder's iron flying i an arc through the air. (It's travel is the intermediate state.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49273 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/25/05 2:16:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard > I sincerely hope that your mood lightens soon, Phil. Sorry for disturbing the peace, Howard. It has happened before and it will probably happen again. I disagree with a lot of what you say about Dhamma, -------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. :-) --------------------------------- but there is no questioning the courtesy and gentle consideration you show towards everyone. And the way you always demonstrate mudita, celebrating others' good fortune. You are a model that will hopefully come to condition my behaviour. ----------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the kind words, Phil. However, I'm fairly good at honestly monitoring my own mindset most of the time, and I can tell you that during the writing of my reply to you, I was not entirely equanimous. ;-) To the extent that this lack of equanimity was carried by my words to you, I apologize for it. ----------------------------------- Phil =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49274 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - I have no disagreement with your words that I have copied below. But could you please remind me of what my "question about how studying nama and rupa helps to purify sila" was? I don't recall asking about that. (Certainly understanding the nature of phenomena, even just intellectually, supports sila.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/25/05 8:34:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Perhaps this is where the answer to Howard's question about how studying nama and rupa helps to purify sila. We cannot intend to have purer sila, but we can gradually come to know when there is lobha behind the supposed sila. As the defilements behind our good deeds are gradually eradicated, the sila becomes purer. And we can't eradicate the defilements without knowing them. That is repeated so often in samyutta nikaya. (Though it's usually referring to a "knowing" that only ariyans are capable of.) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49275 From: "frank" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? dhamma_service Hi Robert, I have nothing else to contribute to this thread. It feels like I'm bending over backwards trying to come up with ways to agree on a common terminology, get past your main sticking point so we can move on with the discussion, and all you're doing is waiting for me to come up with creative ideas so you can shoot them all down with "but that's nicca, that's atta". I have better things to do with my time. Whatever it is you're trying to elicit from this thread for this forum and pali forum, it's going to be up to you to be proactive and try to steer it to a more productive and meaningful angle. Other members sharing my view will also just throw up their hands and give up after a short exchange if nicca and atta is the only response they receive. The fundamental problem is you're coming from a motivation of trying to prove your scripture is right. I'm coming from a motivation of "if these advanced orthodox Theravada meditators, many of whom used to share Robert's view of instantenous rebirth changed their minds after they opened their divine eye, there's a very good chance not every case of rebirth is instantaneous, so what are the practical ramifications of antarabhava?" I really don't care that there are differing Theravada camps who don't agree on this matter, other than that it's pretty lame and annoying to be labeled heretic unorthodox Buddhists. If your faith in Buddhism is dependent on authenticity of commentarial scripture, there will probably come a day, maybe even in this lifetime where you reach a point of some doctrine that you can't reconcile commentarial scripture with your intuition or direct meditative experience. What are you going to do at that point? Don't answer, that's just a question for personal and silent reflection. -fk 49276 From: "frank" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:39am Subject: dhamma soup for the feeling (part 3) dhamma_service If one feels joy, but knows not feeling's nature, bent towards greed, he will not find deliverance. If one feels pain, but knows not feeling's nature, bent toward hate, he will not find deliverance. And even neutral feeling which as peaceful the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed, if, in attachment, he should cling to it, he will not be free from the round of ill. And having done so, in this very life will be free from cankers, free from taints. Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways, when once his life-span ends, his body breaks, all measure and concept he has transcended. Comments: I'm not sure where this verse comes from, but it seems to fit in the Itivutakka part of the sutta pitaka. Htoo made a very good point that in this particular translation/rendering, "feeling" and "joy" can be easily misunderstood. To clarify: "feels joy", "feels pain", and "neutral feeling" refer to the 3 types of the vedana khanda. Furthermore, those 3 types of vedana can have worldly or unworldly cause. In this instance, "neutral feeling" in the verse refers of the bliss of jhanic absorption. -fk 49277 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sila. nilovg Hi Phil, you bring an important point here. I understand your thoughts. During a Dhamma discussion certain points are brought in a specific context. Words are expressed depending on the situation of this or that person who asked a question. Sometimes you may find it useful for you personally, sometimes you may not find yourself in the answer. There cannot be a specific pattern according to which Phil, Herman, Nina lead their lives. We have different accumulated tendencies, we have to deal with our own situations of life, our own character problems, we are responsible ourselves for the way we act, good or bad. Everyone agrees that kusala siila is always valuable, it can be with paññaa or without it. Remember, of the eight types of kusala cittas, four are accompanied by paññaa and four are not. It depends entirely on conditions whether paññaa arises or not. The Buddha exhorted us to perform us as much kusala as we can, life is short. When we perform kusala, there is no opportunity for akusala. Thoughts of wrong view are bound to arise in between, but not at the moment of kusala siila. Anyway, kusala citta is always alternated with akusala citta, but does this prevent us from performing all kinds of kusala? It helps us to remember that whatever kusala we perform, has conditions, also stemming from the past. Reading suttas, listening to Dhamma, right friendship, it all helps. We are very grateful for any reminder that kusala is not self, akusala is not self. We have to learn that, it is something new we have to learn. That is why you see this stressed during discussions you listen to. See below. op 25-08-2005 04:43 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > But it seems to me that even if there is self involved, as it will > be inevitably until we are sotapanna, there can still be value in > becoming aware, even through just thinking about it, of the anger > arising. Perhaps it can save us from striking someone, or shouting. > In that case, isn't avoiding akusala kamma patha of value even if > there is wrong view involved? ------ N: Yes, everyone agrees that it is valuable. And it is also a rare chance just to be reminded how much we cling to 'my kusala'. ------ Ph: In the case of the man, Jon and he are talking, and the man says > something like I have said above, about the value of checking one's > anger. Jon points out that there is a big difference between this > checking one's anger, and directly understanding its characteristice. > To tell the truth, I don't know what it means to directly > understand the characteristics of the anger to any degree deeper > than this feeling it arising it and checking it. ------ N: Only after the first stage of tender insight , knowing the difference between nama and rupa, shall we more clearly understand anger as nama. But we gradually we can learn to be aware of whatever dhamma appears without naming it. This is the way. Meanwhile it is very common that we are so ignorant of realities. It is true that guarding the six doors helps siila, but we should not expect satipatthana to be accomplished that far in the beginning. However, we do not have to wait to refrain from unkind words until satipatthana is accomplished. Then we would wait our whole life or more lives to come. Any level of siila is good also for our fellowmen. Lodewijk keeps on stressing social life, being concerned for others. Kh Sujin wrote a whole chapter on siila in her book on the perfections. She emphasizes all the perfections, we should not neglect any one of them. -------- > Ph: But, as I've said before, I do think Acharn Sujin could be a bit > more supportive of those of us who deal a lot with the arising of > akusala kamma patha (akusala to the degree of moral transgression) > by agreeing that even if there is wrong understanding of self, it is > good to avoid transgression. ----- N: As said above: we all agree with this. It is kusala to refrain from akusala! No problem here. ---------- Ph: I suspect she understands that > there is so much concern about one's self, about one's kamma, about > one's destiny in future lives so even when it comes to akusala kamma > patha we are wrapped up in a personal story about it. ------ N: We have to consider in what context discussions evolve as I said. We learn from the suttas what is akusala kamma path and it is explained in the commentaries. We all can read books and consider. But what is harder to understand: when the idea of self is creeping in, how deeply accumulated it is. The Dhamma is very subtle and not easy to understand. As you said: , and I think this can lead to stress. It helps to see more how each moment is conditioned and that we never know how the next moment will be. This is also an encouragement not to waste our lives with akusala. Understanding this moment helps to understand our life, understanding how it is conditioned. Here we can see how even a beginning of awareness can help sila. ------ Ph: But I think there can be value in avoiding transgression, no matther how little > understanding is involved. ------- N: Yes, of course. But now, while reading this, there is no akusala kamma patha. It causes a lot of worry to think of the future, it keeps us away from knowing this moment. A little understanding accumulated at this moment will bear its fruit in the future for sure. Nina. 49278 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:00pm Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (& Dan), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? > .... > S: I understood that Buddhaghosa had access to the ancient Tipitaka in > Sinhalese and Pali but that the various commentaries were by this time > only available for the main part in Sinhalese. From these, Buddhaghosa > makes it clear that he took 'the substance of the old commentaries' which > were all put at his disposal to work on. > > Perhaps we've read different accounts? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== I tried to do some research on the Internet for the source where I read this information and I can't find it. I think I read it in a pdf document and can't place the document right now. I wrote an e- mail to a scholar monk in Sri Lanka, who's an editor for BPS, and asked him this question. When I get a reply I will let you know. Metta, James 49279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ŒCetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) nilovg Hi Howard, you wrote to me that you agree that it is important to discuss satipatthana and sila, how the former helps. That is OK, I think Herman, Phil and I are on this subject already. It is inexhaustible. Nina. op 25-08-2005 18:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: . But > could you please remind me of what my "question about how studying nama and > rupa > helps to purify sila" was? I don't recall asking about that. (Certainly > understanding the nature of phenomena, even just intellectually, supports > sila.) 49280 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Å’Cetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/25/05 3:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote to me that you agree that it is important to discuss satipatthana and sila, how the former helps. That is OK, I think Herman, Phil and I are on this subject already. It is inexhaustible. Nina. ========================== Thanks. That must be what Phil is referring to. But my issue was along the lines of the need, at least for worldlings and even lesser ariyans, of concepts as support for compassion. My question was along rather specific lines. With metta, Howard op 25-08-2005 18:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: . But > could you please remind me of what my "question about how studying nama and > rupa > helps to purify sila" was? I don't recall asking about that. (Certainly > understanding the nature of phenomena, even just intellectually, supports > sila.) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49281 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:07pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Phil, Sarah: However, if we sit on a bike or on a cushion or on the sofa and try to generate metta for all beings, I think it's likely to be misguided for the reasons Phil discussed. The Metta Sutta: This is what should be done By one who is skilled in goodness, And who seeks1 the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, Straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, Contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, Not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing That the wise would later reprove. Wishing: In gladness and in saftey, May all beings be at ease. Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born, May all beings be at ease! Let none deceive another, Or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another. Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child, So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings: Radiating kindness over the entire world Spreading upwards to the skies, And downwards to the depths; Outwards and unbounded, Freed from hatred and ill-will. Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down Free from drowsiness, One should sustain this recollection. This is said to be the sublime abiding. By not holding to fixed views, The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires, Is not born again into this world. James: I think that this sutta pretty much speaks for itself. It is unambiguous. One should cherish all beings: radiating kindness over the entire world; spreading upwards to the skies, and downwards to the depths; outwards and unbounded. AND One should sustain this recollection. We are not talking about a few occurrances of spontaneous metta, we are talking about a sublime abiding. Metta, James 49282 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Frank, Robert, and all - > > Dr Peter Harvey has reported that some of the early schools other than > Theravada accepted that there are intermediate states (of more than a moment's > duration). Harvey quoted a Pali sutta that likened the rebirth process to a > spark from a wielder's iron flying i an arc through the air. (It's travel is the > intermediate state.) > ________ Dear Howard, To you have the pali sutta that talks about this intermediate state? Robertk 49283 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion egberdina Hi Andrew, Thanks for your comments and questions. On 25/08/05, Andrew wrote: > Hi Herman > > You wrote: > > Remember me ? :-) > > Yes, I do, Herman. How could I forget? (-: > > Then: > > I was amused by your suggestion of the dangers of reading the suttas > > unaided by commentaries and the like. It reminded me of the frequent > > reminders on this site when I first joined, about the dangers of > > meditation. Perhaps the Noble Eight Fold Path is better rendered as > > the Dangerous Eight Fold Path. :-) > > Didn't the Buddha talk about the dangers of wrongly understanding the > Dhamma ... grasping the snake by the tail? And wasn't that in ... a > sutta? Haven't you yourself said often enough how imprecise a tool > language is? And translations? > > So why the amused surprise when I suggest that the suttas are best > understood with the help of explanatory materials? I don't get it. == I have written before how I do not conflate Dhamma with Tipitaka. I also wrote once about how I view the Suttas like strewn about doctor's medical notes, found and gathered together by others, well after a 40 odd years of medical practise. So there are two different things that are happening. One is the doctor, dispensing liberating words on an ad hoc basis, as the situations arise. The second thing is the collection, analysis of these notes, and coming up with a theory of liberation. A big picture, so to speak. The difference is clear ( I hope). One goes to the doctor for specific healing. One doesn't study doctor's notes in general for healing. Wouldn't it be silly to go to a doctor, armed with all sorts of manuals and compendiums, with some level of anxiety that you may misunderstand what he's going to tell you? And who goes to a doctor for the purpose of taking home a prescription to study it, again and again and again? > > I don't deny that there may be some people who can read a translation > of the Buddhaword and understanding thereafter arises (without > further ado) and passes away by conditions. But I don't seem to be > among them. My mind mostly fails to comprehend the significance of > the words or meanders down alternative interpretations, ending up > further confused. == Best to stop reading, then, I'd say, Andrew. I honestly mean that. What are you after? Are you in pursuit of a "big picture understanding of the teachings of the Buddha" or are you looking for an end to suffering? > > Danger? Didn't the Buddha say in the Sutta Nipata that, if only we > knew the damage done by wrong speech, we would treat our tongues as > if they were sharp axes? (or words to that effect). So, yes, I think > you've got a point about danger ... And if the danger applies to > speech and understanding, I can't see why it wouldn't apply > to "meditation" as well. > > Or is "meditation" above reproach and questioning its value somehow > blasphemous? Not at all. But your quarrel (very light - hearted as it is ) is not with me. If you feel "addressed" by anything in the Suttas and apply it to your self and find it counterproductive, cease and desist, I would say. But to be able to find this out you need to know your own mind. What is your purpose in consulting the doctor? I see nothing in the suttas that suggests that the Buddha delights in dispensing fine and subtle theoretical points of dhamma. To the contrary. Kind Regards Herman 49284 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > > If your faith in Buddhism is dependent on authenticity of commentarial > scripture, there will probably come a day, maybe even in this lifetime where > you reach a point of some doctrine that you can't reconcile commentarial > scripture with your intuition or direct meditative experience. What are you > going to do at that point? Don't answer, that's just a question for personal > and silent reflection. > __________ Dear frank, Thanks for you advice but I will answer, this being a discussion group. I had long discussion with a Jehovah witness some back who also advised me of the danger I was in with my faith in Buddhism. He said when the earthquakes and floods start killing everyone (at the secod coming) I would get no comfort and it would be my last chance to recant. As I said in an earlier post the refutations against an intermediate being are not only in the commentaries, they are in the Tipitaka. More than that throughout the suttas and abhidhamma thre is a theme of impermance emphasising that life exists only for a moment in the ultimate sense. If I was to die today I am fully confident that rebirth will be instantaneous in whatever world is appropriate- and that world will be just like this- moments of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, thinking. No fear of this, or planning what I will do in the bardo or intermediate state or whatever. It is by understanding the present moment that confidence in the scriptures of Theravda grows, the theory really is the same as what is experienced. By facing the present moment now one understands what death will be like. It is the only way. Robertk 49285 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/25/05 6:09:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Howard, To you have the pali sutta that talks about this intermediate state? Robertk ====================== I'll look up the reference in Harvey's book & get back to you on this soon! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49286 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you for further discussing this with me. On 25/08/05, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > op 25-08-2005 01:29 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > > > > Just to make sure everybody understands that I do not believe in a > > controlling self. I wrote a few weeks ago about the scientific > > findings of Mr Libet. He demonstrated that awareness of volition > > arises 1/2 second after the brain non-consciously generates that > > volition. He also demonstrated that the mind plays little tricks and > > generates the sequence of experience quite differently to what > > actually happens. > > > > For me, this is scientific proof of anatta. That it follows 2600 years > > after the Buddha first announced it demonstrates the enormity of the > > Buddha's insight. If I remember correctly, Phil's advice was to > > dispense with science, which I think a little strange. Is faith > > preferable to knowing? I do not believe in the truth of anatta, I know > > it to be true!!!! > ----------- > N:I know you are more sceintifically orientated. I do not have any affinity > to science. Different accumulations. == Yes, you're a girl, and I'm a boy . :-) == I think it confusing to compare the Dhamma with science, because science does not lead to detachment. == I'm not sure about this. I think that man's ever expanding understanding of the world and how it actually works (conditionality) has sounded the death-knell for institutional religion in the West. And I'm sure the same will happen in the East. Institutional religion is an object and source of enormous clinging, and certainly does not lead to detachment. But to be freed of that is a two-edged sword. One is freed from the bonds of the most ridiculous superstitions, and no longer do airy-fairy ethical systems, all based around unknowable life after death, have any weight. On the other hand, we find ourself as purposeful beings in a purposeless world. How then to live is *THE* question for modern man. Because we all understand, even if we don't accept it, that we will be detached from all that we think we are. == > In the suttas you will not find any scientific approach. == I agree. Joop's soteriology comes to mind. But I cannot say the same for later Buddhist works. > Rob K has written about science and Buddhism before, maybe he can repeat it? == That would be good and useful for me. As long as he doesn't mind me disagreeing with him. I do have to laugh sometimes, with different people debunking science whilst being engrossed in the Internet, listening to MP3's, flying to Bangkok for another Dhamma fix. Our lives are totally dominated by science. And how we foster attachment to technology!. We even have backup sites to this one, just in case of technical failure. We cannot live without our electronic Dhamma :-) Please be assured that I am not critical of any of this, I do not think it is wrong or bad. But I do think it's funny :-) > > You write: Is faith preferable to knowing? > Faith is rather: confidence in kusala, confidence in the Dhamma but this is > acquired and grows through understanding of the teachings. It never is blind > faith or just believing. > As to the word knowing you use, this is not scientific knowing but higher > than that, it is deep, direct understanding that has been developed on and > on through satipatthana. > What do you think of this? == I'm glad to read it. Faith for the Christian is "the substance of things hoped for, the sight of things unseen". Without recourse to reality anything at all can be the object of faith. When reality injects some doubt into what is believed, the antidote for many is to just have more faith. Without satipatthana to confirm anicca, anatta and dukkha, again and again and again, Buddhism would be quite empty of substance. And of course nibbana is the proof of the pudding. But not yet. > You write: I do not believe in the truth of anatta, I know it to be true!!!! > Yes, this is intellectual. But this is not enough. It cannot eradicate > delusion, clinging to wrong view and other defilements. The only way: > development of direct understanding of any dhamma appearing through the > senses and the mind-door. Don't you agree? == To be honest, I do not really know whether I know what direct understanding is. When is something direct understanding, and when is it direct deception? The mind, as self-measuring ruler, is the forerunner of all illusions :-) Kind Regards Herman 49287 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child egberdina Hi Phil, On 25/08/05, Philip wrote: > > Hi Herman > > > > May the peace of the Lord be with you always. > > > > Is that any better :-) ? > > Hmm....I think I would choose understanding over peace. Peace comes > and goes and depends on the eight worldly conditions, usually. Peace is > conceptual and can be all about lobha, about desiring comfort or > perhaps kusala calmness. Understanding is a reality, and when there is > a moment of understanding, it is accumulated in a lasting way. > I'm pretty sure for myself that an agitated mind sees nothing very clearly. The foundation for understanding is a tranquil mind. But, hey, I accept what works for me doesn't necessarily apply elsewhere. > I went off there a bit, which I will do on occasion. A lot of dosa > has been accumulated and it will have its way. Sorry and thanks in > advance for your understanding, Herman. No worries at all. Rest assured that it is like water of a duck's back from my side. Conditions at work. I don't > want to pretend to be affable when I'm irritated. I can tell that > you're a nice person and that I'd enjoy having a coffee with you and > discussing psychology or science or world politics or whatever, but > when it comes to Dhamma I suspect I will become increasingly non- > compromising about the truth for the time being. I know a little bit about myself, perhaps some of it will be useful for you to know. Do not believe your own stories about why you loose the plot now and again. The reason you loose the plot is because you see things that aren't there. "My Life" by Phil, as is "My World" by Herman, are bestsellers in our own minds. Pity they are bullshit from cover to cover :-) We'll see what > happens. I suspect I will go through a stage of being irritable here > and by being aware of this irritability understanding will develop in a > way that will make me more tolerant. I suspect that's the case - no way > to know and no point in thinking about it after I post this here. > > I thought afterwards that I usually say that even Dhamma with wrong > understanding is better than no Dhamma at all. Even "metta" without > understanding brings people peace of mind, and peace of mind is good. > But peace of mind without understanding is not the Buddha's way to > liberation. So do we *want* Dhamma in order to feel better, to be > peaceful, or does understanding of Dhamma arise in a conditioned way so > that there is a beginning of progress towards liberation? That's the > question, I guess. I see no reason to assume Samsara conditions its own extinction. Au contraire, mon cher ami. That this is the case is a source of enormous comfort for the ego, who'se mission in life is to make sure the thriller "My Life" by Phil does not ever have a closing chapter. The Buddha's gift is not exactly welcome where suffering is not realised. Should people strive to see suffering if they don't? Not on your nellie! But any life lived honestly will soon have the reality of suffering banging on the doors, and with it the realisation that "My Life" by Phil is the source of that suffering. And you're one of the more honest blokes I know. That stands you in good stead. Don't take your autobiography too seriously, and may the understanding of the Lord be with you always :-) Kind Regards Herman > > Phil > > p.s "problem child" reminded me that when I took a personality test > that James linked us to I was a "schoolyard bully" type, which makes > sense to me. There is a lot of lust, a lot of hatred accumulated - but > it's just conditioned nama so nothing to fret about - that would just > make for more lobha and dosa, not less. Understanding is the only way > out. > > 49288 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert - In a message dated 8/25/05 6:09:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Howard, To you have the pali sutta that talks about this intermediate state? Robertk ========================== The main reference Harvery gives is S.IV.399-400. He quotes a passage with the Buddha saying "At a time when a flame, Vaccha, flung by the wind, goes a very long way, I declare thet flame to be fuelled by the wind (vaato). At that time, Vaccha, wind is the fuel (upaadaanam) ... At the time, Vaccha, when a being lays aside this body and is not arisen (anuppanno) in another body, for this I say craving is the fuel. Indeed, Vaccha, craving is the fuel at that time." That seems to describe a bhaava or transitional phase between lives. He also references A.II.134 and D.I.83 (with the wandering on the road being the intermediate state). BTW, this issue seems to me to be of little import as regards the heart of the Dhamma! I don't persoanlly care what the facts are with regard to it. All existence is in the moment, whatever the nature of that existence might be. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49289 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) onco111 Howdy, Howard - Certainly it is possible to cultivate a habit of attending mindfully to whatever arises -- and in two general ways. First is the conventional cultivation of directing the attention to this or that, which does bear some fruit. Second is the cultivation of satisampajaña, which is a different matter because it is impervious to "technique". Whatever formulation of "do this to cultivate that" you can come up with fails. However, this does not mean there is no cultivation -- it is just not done via a recipe but by wisdom instead. Although it sounds like circular reasoning, it is not. The "sati" of satisampajaña is distinctly different from the directed, conventional sati, but inevitably the language to describe them are very, very similar. In Vibhanga, the descriptions of "samma this-or-that" are often identical to the descriptions of "miccha this- or-that" -- the only difference being the "samma" vs. the "miccha". Sure, one can develop samma-sati while sitting in formal meditation. The trouble is that it is easier to develop miccha-sati than samma- sati, and the very context of the meditation ("I'm going to develop sati by noting the sensations") makes it difficult to distinguish between miccha- and samma-. If the goal is to have a restful sit, away from the hum-drum of daily life, no problem. The miccha- serves fine. If the goal is to develop wisdom, confusing miccha- for samma- is a substantial obstacle. I wish you all the best, Howard. It's great to hear from you. Dan > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that most of us are unable to "decide" to be aware of a > particular moment of arising, or about-to-arise, anger. But it is possible to cultivate > a general habit of attending mindfully to whatever arises, or is about to > arise, and even to concentrate that habit of emotive phenomena. Mindfulness can > and should be cultivated, I believe. If I thought it could not be, I would > abandon the Buddhist enterprise. > --------------------------------------- 49290 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger/ a reply onco111 Dear Tep, Thank-you for the courteous and thoughtful response. I hope you don't mind if I snip a little in my response, taking a pass on Q's 2 and 4. Dan: Q1. Anger is a very gross emotion, and when people are angry, they usually are quite aware of it. And yet, that "being aware" doesn't seem to help. Why not? Tep: A1. At the low worldling level - those who don't know mindfulness through the Satipatthana Sutta - being aware doesn't help. Because their "awareness" is not working. --> This gets to the heart of the issue. There seem to be different kinds of "awareness" -- some that "work", and some that "do not work". Can you explain a little more about what you perceive the difference to be? Dan: Q3. In an instruction along the lines of "Do this-and-that to gain control over the arising and passing away of such-and-such", who implements the instruction? Tep: A3 Probably it is a person who reads an article on "anger management". --> I love it! Also, don't you suspect that Luang Pu's statement could easily and commonly be misread as an "anger management" article? In any case, my question was really about the sense of self that is inherent in adopting any such method...there really is a sense of an "I" who follows these instructions and controls the arising and passing of the cittas and cetasikas. But there is no sense of "I" in the development of wisdom. With appreciation, Dan 49291 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Typo Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) onco111 Howard, thanks for the correction, but I still don't know what you are talking about! upasaka@a... > writes: > But it is possible to cultivate > a general habit of attending mindfully to whatever arises, or is about to > arise, and even to concentrate that habit of emotive phenomena. > ========================== > The phrase "to concentrate that habit of emotive phenomena" was supposed > to be "to concentrate that habit on emotive phenomena." Sorry. 49292 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: How to detect a problem child corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: "My Life" by Phil, as is "My World" by > Herman, are bestsellers in our own minds. Pity they are bullshit from > cover to cover :-) Hi all I tried to buy these 2 books on amazon.com but apparently they are out of print. (-: Thanks for your comments on the other thread, Herman. I'll let them mature (in oak casks) for a while ... Best wishes Andrew T 49293 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Hi James, Despite the sharp tone of your note, it really is good to hear from you. I hope everything is going well for you in Egypt. Sorry for my smart-aleky post. That was obviously the wrong tone to strike with you. I do think my point was a good one, though, and I would love to hear your appropriate response. You mentioned that you thought that Vism was "a work of ego" that was written "to impress". I read so few ad hominem attacks among posts at dsg and almost never do I see such blatant, dismissive, and unfair personal attacks. Wouldn't it be better to stick to what he wrote than to dismiss it by impugning his motives (which you can't possibly know anything about)? Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Dan D. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I intended > > with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous > > presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism > > "gently slam" is an oxymoron. If you ever intend to 'slam' me it will > never be 'gentle'. It will also always be inappropriate. I wish you > had just been straightforward in your previous post and I could have > responded appropriately. No one likes a smart-alek. > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and come > back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. > > Metta, > James > ps. A friend here in Cairo, a new member of this group, wrote a post > to you also but I guess it was censored. He was much more upset by > your 'gentle slamming' than I was. 49294 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:01pm Subject: (No subject) onco111 ...and, Frank, I saw that you posted an interesting note to me too, but I don't have time to get to it now. (I do hope to later.) Dan 49295 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger/ a reply buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Dan, I am glad that we did not end up in a wordy war. It is difficult to think clearly in that situation. Dan :Thank-you for the courteous and thoughtful response. I hope you don't mind if I snip a little in my response, taking a pass on Q's 2 and 4. Tep: Not at all. Sometimes, my questions got a zero response and yet I did not mind. ------------------------- Dan : There seem to be different kinds of "awareness" -- some that "work", and some that "do not work". Can you explain a little more about what you perceive the difference to be? Tep: I think the kind of awareness that works nearly 100% of the time is supported by saddha in kusala plus patience and determination to be mindful. The opposite case of "not working sati" is caused by a lack of saddha and viriya. -------------------------- Dan: In any case, my question (Q3. In an instruction along the lines of "Do this-and-that to gain control over the arising and passing away of such-and-such", who implements the instruction?) was really about the sense of self that is inherent in adopting any such method...there really is a sense of an "I" who follows these instructions and controls the arising andpassing of the cittas and cetasikas. But there is no sense of "I" in the development of wisdom. Tep: But isn't there a person who wants to develop wisdom, believing that there is no sense of " I " in this nama-rupa? Who is going to gain such wisdom? I believe that we can follow any instruction without being obsessed with the "self demon" -- i.e. treat the instruction like a dhamma taught by the Buddha, if we can clearly see a benefit. When you "develop wisdom", are you developing wisdom for an anatta, an emptiness? Wouldn't the wisdom be wasted, if there is nobody to get the benefit of such wisdom? I say, first thing first. Now we must develop wisdom for ourselves while we still are not 100% clear (yatha-bhuta-dassana) about "anatta" yet. Later on, when our wisdom matures and we can penetrate the "not self" dhamma, at that time the self demon will automatically disappear. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Tep, > Thank-you for the courteous and thoughtful response. I hope you don't > mind if I snip a little in my response, taking a pass on Q's 2 and 4. > 49296 From: "Alan McClure" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... alanmcclure3 > Dear Howard, > To you have the pali sutta that talks about this intermediate state? > Robertk > ========================== >Howard: The main reference Harvey gives is S.IV.399-400. He quotes a >passage > with the Buddha saying "At a time when a flame, Vaccha, flung by the wind, > goes a > very long way, I declare thet flame to be fuelled by the wind (vaato). At > that time, Vaccha, wind is the fuel (upaadaanam) ... At the time, Vaccha, > when a > being lays aside this body and is not arisen (anuppanno) in another body, > for > this I say craving is the fuel. Indeed, Vaccha, craving is the fuel at > that > time." That seems to describe a bhaava or transitional phase between > lives. > He also references A.II.134 and D.I.83 (with the wandering on the road > being the intermediate state). Hello all, I know that I don't post here at all, but I have followed this particular conversation with interest. Having already heard of the above sutta, I recently looked it up in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation to see how he translated it. Sure enough, he translates it similarly to the other version with which I was familiar: Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's. However, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi also gives us his opinion on this particular line in a footnote: "ta.m aha.m ta.nhuupaadaana.m vadaami. The Buddha's statement seems to imply that a temporal gap can intervene between the death moment and reconception. Since this contradicts Theravada orthodoxy, [I] contend that at the death moment itself the being is said to be "not yet reborn" because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen." His argument does make sense to me, but I can also say how some may not be swayed. It is in a case like this that further scriptural mention of such a possibility would be of interest. I have not yet seen references to other suttas, however, which might be speaking of such an "in-between" state. The fact that I haven't seen any others proves nothing of course, except that I haven't seen them. Or perhaps there are none. I'll keep my eyes open. Metta, Alan 49297 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my comments) upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 8/25/05 8:28:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Certainly it is possible to cultivate a habit of attending mindfully to whatever arises -- and in two general ways. First is the conventional cultivation of directing the attention to this or that, which does bear some fruit. Second is the cultivation of satisampajaña, which is a different matter because it is impervious to "technique". Whatever formulation of "do this to cultivate that" you can come up with fails. However, this does not mean there is no cultivation -- it is just not done via a recipe but by wisdom ======================= I consider that it is a kind of bootstrapping that proceeds through higher and higher (and more and more subtle levels). But, regardless of how much the phrase may turn off some folks, I believe we start where we are, and not where we'd hope to be! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49298 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: Typo Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the souless: cutting off anger (my com... upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 8/25/05 8:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Howard, thanks for the correction, but I still don't know what you are talking about! ======================= Ahh, good! I AM the obfuscation master!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49299 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi, Alan - In a message dated 8/25/05 10:49:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alanmcclure3@... writes: Hello all, I know that I don't post here at all, but I have followed this particular conversation with interest. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm very happy you're posting now! :-) ----------------------------------------- Having already heard of the above sutta, I recently looked it up in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation to see how he translated it. Sure enough, he translates it similarly to the other version with which I was familiar: Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's. ------------------------------------- Howard: Good to know! -------------------------------------- However, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi also gives us his opinion on this particular line in a footnote: "ta.m aha.m ta.nhuupaadaana.m vadaami. The Buddha's statement seems to imply that a temporal gap can intervene between the death moment and reconception. Since this contradicts Theravada orthodoxy, [I] contend that at the death moment itself the being is said to be "not yet reborn" because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen." His argument does make sense to me, but I can also say how some may not be swayed. It is in a case like this that further scriptural mention of such a possibility would be of interest. I have not yet seen references to other suttas, however, which might be speaking of such an "in-between" state. The fact that I haven't seen any others proves nothing of course, except that I haven't seen them. Or perhaps there are none. I'll keep my eyes open. ------------------------------------- Howard: Great! -------------------------------------- Metta, Alan ====================== Thanks for writig, Alan! Witn metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49300 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Tep, ----------- Tep: > I, in general, agree with your linking of the "eightfold path consciousness" with "strong form of samadhi-cetasika". However, it is not clear in your message whether one may make the following inferences. Do you care to respond? 1. All kinds of Stream-winner must have attained at least the 1st rupa-jhana. 2. Samma-ditthi (right concentration) is the same as fulfilment of the four rupa-jhanas (see DN 22 for the definition of right concentration). -------------- (Correcting your typo - Inference 2 should read, "Samma-samadhi (right concentration) . . .") No, I don't make either inference. I am convinced, by many DSG discussions over the years, that neither is true. It seems to me that Inference 2 could not possibly be true. If the samma-samadhi taught by the Buddha were the same as jhana concentration (taught by many people), then it would not be unique to the Dhamma - which I am sure it is. I understand that the concentration found in the Eightfold Path (and described in the sutta you quoted) is of similar intensity to the concentration of the jhanas, but it is not the same. I think samma-samadhi is developed by countless moments (over countless lifetimes) of concentration - with insight - on conditioned paramattha dhammas. Concentrating - for however long - on concepts (as in jhana) will never develop samma-samadhi of the Eightfold Path. Ken H 49301 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 0:03am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 259- Attachment/lobha (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] There are time and again experiences through the different doorways. There is seeing, hearing, the experience of tangible object or thinking. It seems that all these experiences arise immediately one after the other. However, they arise in different processes and in these processes there are “javana-cittas” (1) which are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. For example, shortly after hearing, which is vipåkacitta (result of kamma), has arisen and fallen away, there may be attachment to sound, and then there are lobha-múla-cittas, performing the function of javana. Even during the sense-door process, before the object is experienced through the mind-door, lobha can arise. The javana-cittas which arise in the different processes of cittas, experiencing objects through the six doors, are more often akusala cittas then kusala cittas, but we are ignorant of them. After a sense-object such as sound is experienced through the ear-door, it is experienced by cittas arising in a mind-door process. The cittas arising in the mind-door process which follows upon the sense-door process, in this case the ear-door process, merely experience the sound, they do not think about it, and they do not know what kind of sound it is. After that process there can be other mind-door processes of cittas which think of the source of the sound, of the meaning of it, of concepts. The thinking of concepts after the seeing, hearing or the experiences through the other sense-doors, is usually done with lobha, even if we do not feel particularly glad. When we, for example, after hearing a sound, know that it is the sound of a bird, this is not hearing but thinking, and this is usually done with lobha. We want to know the meaning of what we hear. We want to know the meaning of all we have experienced through the senses. When we pay attention to the shape and form of things, after the seeing, there is thinking of concepts, which is usually done with clinging. We like to notice all the familiar things around us, we would not like to miss noticing them. Thus, we have many moments of clinging arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes; we have many more moments of lobha than we ever thought and it is beneficial to realize this. It can remind us to be aware of the different realities which appear in order to know them as they are. *** 1) See my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 14. There are usually seven cittas in a process performing the function of javana, “running through the object”. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49302 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, I think all the points you made in reply to this thread were excellent... --- Philip wrote: > > Hello all > > > The characteristic of lobha can be known only when it appears. > > But as Acharn Sujin says we are usually just thinking about it. > This is lobha, this is dosa. That is not knowing the characteristic. ... S: I've snipped the rest, but I thought all your comments were spot on. I also liked your post on carita and accumulations very much #48283 and the one on control #49193 "....But not control, because who controls? There is no self. I thought that was a given. Whether we act with an illusion (delusion?)of control or not, with an illusion of self or not, there is no self, and no control...." Oh, also the problem child one #49255 on why we want Dhamma and the accumulations being nth to fret about....'Understanding is the only way out.' Thanks Phil, Metta, Sarah ======= 49303 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok2 sarahprocter... Hi Sukin & Herman, --- Sukinder wrote: question of "how citta experiencing rupa can know it's > same rupa experienced by previous cittas", my answer is that it doesn't! ... S: Yes, that's how I'd have answered too. Citta just experiences the rupa and if there's awareness, it's just aware of it. .... > > Citta in a series knows only the object. It does not `understand'. The > mode of `knowing' of citta is different from panna. It is the latter > which > performs the function of understanding. The level of this understanding > is accumulated and there is no limit to this, the maximum degree being > that of a Sammasambuddha. So yes, if the Buddha says that it is 17 > moments of citta per rupa, then it must be so!! ;-) .... S: ;-). Right, our understanding will never know what the Buddha's wisdom knew... .... > > Thank you Sarah, Jon, Chris, for coming over to Bkk. and allowing for a > few hours of excellent discussions, the level of which is so much higher > than the Saturday discussion us frivolous Bangkokians usually maintain. > I had wanted to suggest to both of you to now come and live in Bkk > instead of Hkk. ;-) .... S: Thanks, Sukin....Ken H made a similar suggestion about living in Noosa, but I can assure you that if we were around longer, you'd all soon get tired of us;-). Thanks for all the kindness you and the others always show us when we visit too. Your post on food, depression and medications #49096 is a good one too, Sukin and I like the conclusions. Well said, especially on the purpose of study. ..... Herman, I hope Vicki is getting some good rest -- not always easy with lots of menfolk around. She needs to be strong to help take care of you all and you need to be strong to take care of her too! Jon's still going back to his old office - still clearing out and new projects starting next week, so I doubt I'll see much more of him during the day, though we have had a few breakfasts together which makes a nice change - a more relaxed time to read posts together! Hugs to Vicki, Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, remember if you can to ask Num to check that Patisambhidamagga ref and the meaning of the first point, 'attending to enlightenment'.....If you can encourage him to post about it, even better. ======= 49304 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada? sarahprocter... Hi RobertK, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I know many members are irritated by my posts, still I'm quite happy > to write as I always do: straw man arguments, lack of courtesy and > perjoratives are my trademarks I guess. You could ask Sarah and jon > to ban me though. ... S: We'd never even consider the request however....:). We both appreciate all your reflections on this and any other topic, Rob. .... > Robertk > p.s. Would you mind if I use your post on pali-list (and sarah yours > too?), I think it still needs more discussion, if the topic comes up > again that is. ... S: No problem...pls just include name and url/link for any quotes or forwarding. As Nina said, it would be nice if you could join us in Bkk or on a trip sometime...seems like a long while. Metta, Sarah ======== 49305 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... egberdina Hi Alan, I'm also glad to see you posting here. Unless I am mistaken (that hardly happens :-)) I do read your posts elsewhere, and I am always very impressed. Kind Regards Herman > I know that I don't post here at all, but I have followed this particular > conversation with interest. Having already heard of the above sutta, I > recently looked it up in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation to see how he > translated it. Sure enough, he translates it similarly to the other version > with which I was familiar: Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's. > 49306 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Brahmavamso (Re: e-card from Bangkok 3) egberdina Hi Sarah, > > S: I think the question you raised after listening to these talks (I > haven't heard them, so cannot comment on them), was something along the > lines of 'why not be aware of present realities AND follow the methods > described for attaining jhana...?' > > <..> > > It is true that one of the constant 'needs' I have is for a method > > to follow, which usually conditions teasing in Bangkok - but 'I y'am > > what I y'am' ... > ... > S: I think the question is 'who or what follows the methods?' Also, 'what > is jhana' and 'what is samatha'? > .... I guess whoever hears and values the invitation to do so follows the methods. Much like whoever it is that goes to Bangkok to hear K Sujin. Kind Regards Herman 49307 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... sarahprocter... Hi Alan, Frank, Howard & all, --- Alan McClure wrote: > I know that I don't post here at all, but I have followed this > particular > conversation with interest. .... S: I'm glad to read your message and keen interest in the details. I hope we hear more from you and anything further you'd care to add about your background/where you live etc. .... Having already heard of the above sutta, I > recently looked it up in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation to see how he > translated it. Sure enough, he translates it similarly to the other > version > with which I was familiar: Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's. > > However, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi also gives us his opinion on this particular > > line in a footnote: > > "ta.m aha.m ta.nhuupaadaana.m vadaami. The Buddha's statement seems to > imply that a temporal gap can intervene between the death moment and > reconception. Since this contradicts Theravada orthodoxy, [I] contend > that > at the death moment itself the being is said to be "not yet reborn" > because > the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen." > > His argument does make sense to me, but I can also say how some may not > be > swayed. It is in a case like this that further scriptural mention of > such a > possibility would be of interest. I have not yet seen references to > other > suttas, however, which might be speaking of such an "in-between" state. > The > fact that I haven't seen any others proves nothing of course, except > that I > haven't seen them. Or perhaps there are none. I'll keep my eyes open. ... S: I think that when we understand how one citta follows another, there's no doubt that when we read conventional desciptions of birth and death that they have to be read and understood in this light. Frank, thanks for your post #49220 which you set out beautifully. As you said, the escrow time can only be zero from your abhidhamma understanding. This means cuti citta is followed by patisandhi citta. I wouldn't start referring to sperm and egg merging, brain death and so on, because these are conventional terms which can never pinpoint such cittas. Is that kosher enough for you too? If so, I'll look forward to the 'escrow-ist' view you promised. Even if we look at arupa brahma realms, the same laws of cittas conditioning next cittas follows and even in the realm of no cittas [Asannisattas (Non-percipient beings, i.e without cittas], the previous cuti citta conditions the next patisandhi citta. The asannasatta realm is not 'antarabhava'. A complex issue. You may both like to look at posts under 'asannasatta' and 'intermediate states' in 'Useful Posts' in the files. Frank, I think that you and Rob are having a good discussion. I know many people prefer to stick to the suttas. With regard to your qu about 'the Pali canon' see*. Metta, Sarah * From the front page of the 'official' PTS catalogue: "The main division of the Pali canon as it exists today is threefold, although the Pali commentarial tradition refers to several different ways of classification. The three divisions are known as pitakas and the canon itself as the Tipitaka....The text of the canon is divided, according to this system, into Vianya (monastic rules), Suttas (discourses) and Abhidhamma (analysis of the teaching)." 49308 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Ken, I was happy to hear what a great time everyone had at your "pad" recently. If I understood it right, you designed it yourself ? Did you contribute on the building side as well? Don't mind tinkering myself. The following is not of any soteriological value. It is textual criticism type stuff, purely for fun. Nothing wrong with a bit of fun, though :-) > --------------------------------- > > This is the way I see it: From the time the Buddha first taught, "All > conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta," he radically > altered the way people understood the world. From that time > on - regardless of whether they comprehended deeply or superficially - > people knew that the Buddha's conventional-sounding words actually > conveyed a meaning that was profoundly unconventional, deep in > meaning, and concerning anatta. > > I'm not so sure the same applies today. Today, most "learned > authorities" classify Buddhism with other religions as if, > ultimately, they all teach the same thing. And there are "Buddhists" > who share that view. > > So, in my opinion, Abhidhamma knowledge is inseparable from 'right > hearing' of the Buddha's words. It is not helpful to hear, "All > conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta," unless you know > what a conditioned dhamma is. It is not a tree or a car or a person. > > Many Buddhists today don't have Abhidhamma knowledge, and so, unlike > in the Buddha's day, they hear and teach the Dhamma in a totally > wrong way. > > ------------------------ We may actually be in agreement on this, but only if you are using your words a bit generally. I'm thinking of a sutta like MN140, the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta. The Buddha teaches anicca, anatta, dukkha, based on six elements, contact, feeling and a few other tid-bits. It is abhidhammish, but not Abhidhamma. Are you using the word Abhidhamma strictly, as in exactly what is in the Abhidhamma, including the dreaded Katthavhatthu (paramattha) or are you using abhidhamma as a method? If the latter, we agree. If the former, you are obviously wrong :-) Kind Regards Herman 49309 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha sarahprocter... Hi Azita & Nina, --- gazita2002 wrote: > For example, we talk about pariyatti, the intellectual > understanding of all realities; maybe this has never been undertaken > and developed in the being who has the sati and panna of the degree > of samatha.???? ..... S: right, for the one who has ‘*only* the sati and panna of samatha development’, there is no understanding of realities at all. I liked this passage which Nina recently quoted from K.Sujin’s Cambodian lectures: “From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a ‘self’. Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality. Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is again forgetfulness of realities, we are thinking of other things.” K.Sujin stressed that pa~n~natti refers to anything which is not a reality. Rupas of the past and future refer to rupas which were or will be present rupas. When we think about them, we think about concepts or pa~n~natti of rupas. Cittas that have fallen away similarly never ‘change’ into concepts, but when there is thinking of past cittas now, it is thinking of concepts. As you said, Nina, when there is direct awareness of realities, there is no doubt at all about ‘what is a dhamma and what is a concept’. The ‘reviewing’ of nibbana is definitely the direct experience of the reality of nibbana. No conepts are involved. In the case of ‘reviewing’ of jhana cittas and factors for the one who hasn’t developed satipatthana, I don't think we can say. Remember that there was no direct understanding of realities when the jhana cittas themselves arose. Nina, I really think that whenever there’s thinking about visible object, it’s a concept (or nimitta) of visible object, quite different from when there is direct awareness of its characteristic. Again, like Phil, I'm appreciating all the extracts you are posting and also the Vism posts which I'm slowly catching up with. Metta, Sarah p.s I think everyone should ask questions here or in India on whatever they find useful. Last time, K.Sujin asked me to remind people to prepare questions and I hope Azita will have her notebook of them ready too! Azita, do you want us to still look out an old (smaller) tape-recorder to take to you in Bkk? ======== 49310 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Dan and James, The following is of no soteriological value whatsoever. It is an intellectual exercise. I am not going to participate because I have better things to do with my time, but it could be an interesting and fun activity to do a compare / contrast of the Suttas with the opus of Buddhagosa. Institutional Buddhism and Buddhagosa are inseparable, and the latter's influence on the former is inestimable. I see distinct similarities between St Paul's influence on Christianity and Buddhagosa's influence on Buddhism. It is my personal view only, but I see both men as empire/temple builders. Which is a total misunderstanding and misappropriation of the Teachings of Jesus and Gautama. Jesus and Gautama have much in common, by the way. But that's another story. Be good now, you hear :-) Herman On 26/08/05, Dan D. wrote: > Hi James, > Despite the sharp tone of your note, it really is good to hear from > you. I hope everything is going well for you in Egypt. > > Sorry for my smart-aleky post. That was obviously the wrong tone to > strike with you. > > I do think my point was a good one, though, and I would love to hear > your appropriate response. > > You mentioned that you thought that Vism was "a work of ego" that was > written "to impress". I read so few ad hominem attacks among posts at > dsg and almost never do I see such blatant, dismissive, and unfair > personal attacks. Wouldn't it be better to stick to what he wrote > than to dismiss it by impugning his motives (which you can't possibly > know anything about)? > > Metta, > > Dan > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Dan D. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > > Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I > intended > > > with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous > > > presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism > > > > "gently slam" is an oxymoron. If you ever intend to 'slam' me it > will > > never be 'gentle'. It will also always be inappropriate. I wish > you > > had just been straightforward in your previous post and I could > have > > responded appropriately. No one likes a smart-alek. > > > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and > come > > back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. > > > > Metta, > > James > > ps. A friend here in Cairo, a new member of this group, wrote a > post > > to you also but I guess it was censored. He was much more upset by > > your 'gentle slamming' than I was. 49311 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:35am Subject: Ajahn Brahmavamso and Anatta christine_fo... Hello all, A couple of articles by Ajahn Brahmavamso on Anatta: The ending of things - a discourse on non-self http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed076.htm Using non-self to let go http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed055.htm metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control nilovg Hi Herman, thank you for answering me. op 26-08-2005 00:54 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: Faith for the Christian is "the substance of > things hoped for, the sight of things unseen". Without recourse to > reality anything at all can be the object of faith. When reality > injects some doubt into what is believed, the antidote for many is to > just have more faith. Without satipatthana to confirm anicca, anatta > and dukkha, again and again and again, Buddhism would be quite empty > of substance. And of course nibbana is the proof of the pudding. But > not yet. ------- N: In other words, faith or confidence has to be balanced with understanding. I remember my discussion with Tep. Indeed, if there is only faith, there can be agreat deal of superstition, cultivation of persons, too much devotion, enthusiasm. The head has to be kept cool. Balance is important. -------- H quotes: N: The only way: >> development of direct understanding of any dhamma appearing through the >> senses and the mind-door. Don't you agree? ------- H: To be honest, I do not really know whether I know what direct > understanding is. When is something direct understanding, and when is > it direct deception? The mind, as self-measuring ruler, is the > forerunner of all illusions :-) ------- N: Dhammapada The Twin verses 1 and 2: Citta is forerunner of all evil condiitons and of all good conditions. Paññaa is needed to find out. I understand what you say about direct understanding. It is the same in the case of direct awareness. How does one know? When it actually arises. I understand that you do not find this a satisfying anwer, because it is not what is considered logical by most people. We have to consider the right conditions for paññaa: patiently listening and considering what one hears for oneself. Nobody else can develop understanding for you. And to finish my letter to you: all good wishes also for Vicky, a speedy recovery. Nina. 49313 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:50am Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi James, > Despite the sharp tone of your note, it really is good to hear from > you. I hope everything is going well for you in Egypt. James: Thank you for replying. Everything is going fine for me here in Egypt. It is a difficult country but also very interesting and strangely spiritual. > > Sorry for my smart-aleky post. That was obviously the wrong tone to > strike with you. James: Thank you for the apology. I accept. I like this post a lot more because it is much more direct and expresses your thoughts and feelings. But, unlike Nina, I appreciate humor in posts also. > > I do think my point was a good one, though, and I would love to hear > your appropriate response. James: I would give you the link to where I read the appropriate information but I have run into a problem. I loaned my laptop to some friends while I was in America, the laptop ran into some problems, and I lost all of my bookmarks. I will try to track the information down when I have time. I believe I read it in an e-book about the history of Sri Lanka, but I'm not sure. > > You mentioned that you thought that Vism was "a work of ego" that was > written "to impress". I read so few ad hominem attacks among posts at > dsg and almost never do I see such blatant, dismissive, and unfair > personal attacks. James: Yes, I often go out on a limb with my posts. Buddhaghosa is dead so I'm sure he won't mind. ;-) Now, why you are taking it personally is another question. Wouldn't it be better to stick to what he wrote > than to dismiss it by impugning his motives (which you can't possibly > know anything about)? James: Like I said, I can't find the source, but here is what I read: Buddhaghosa went to Sri Lanka from India to translate the ancients texts into Pali. The first thing he did, however, was to write the Vism., while in Sri Lanka. Why? After all, he wasn't sent to Sri Lanka to write his own works. From what I read, the monks in Sri Lanka didn't know Buddhaghosa from Adam and here he was saying that he was going to translate almost the entire Tipitaka, plus commentaries, into Pali. In order to demonstrate to the monks of Sri Lanka that he knew what he was doing, and that he knew Buddhism, he wrote the Vism. The Vism. accomplished its intended goal and they trusted his ability to do the job he came to do. Now, let's say this information is completely incorrect. I can still say that the Vism. is a work of ego because Buddhaghosa wasn't enlightened when he composed it. Everything that Buddhaghosa wrote was a work of ego because he wasn't enlightened. Actually, this post of mine is a work of ego, my ego. And your post to me is a work of ego. This whole group is a demonstration in the clashing of egos- that's why nothing written here should be taken too seriously or taken for the truth...unless it is the word of the Buddha. > > Metta, > > Dan Metta, James 49314 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:03am Subject: Dhamma Threrad ( 505 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) Hetu has been discussed in the previous posts. 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) This is not about jhaana. But it is about jhananga or jhana-factors. Here jhana means unwavering attention to an object in unshakable manner. This also include akusala dhamma. Example when one is very very very angry then no other dhamma can influence that angriness and that time is said to be in 'unwavering state of mind with dosa'. There are 7 jhanangas or 7 factors that cause unwavering mind. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'joy' 4. somanassa or 'mental pleasure' 5. domanassa or 'mental displeasure' 6. ekaggataa or 'one-pointedness' 7. upekkha or 'equanimity' 1. vitakka or 'initial application' It is translated as 'initial application' so as to differentiate it from vicaara or 'sustained application'. So 'initial' is used to modify 'application'. Main theme is 'application'. There are many different 'vitakka' like kaama-viitakka, vihi.msa- viitakka, byaapaada-vitakka, jhaana-viitakka, magga-viitakka, phala- viitakka etc etc. When it works as jhananga then the mind become unwavering. This also includes unwavering mind to commit crime. When vitakka well works then it works as jhananga. Example one has hatred and once he becomes angry with certain people. He might decide to kill that hated person. This thought to kill works as jhananga and he cannot escape from committing murder because of vitakka. If vitakka is with other beautiful cetasikas then it may well work as beautiful cetasika and vitakka may involve in daana, siila, bhaavana etc etc. Likewise vitakka may work as ruupa-jhaana-vitakka or aruupa- jhaana vitta if the objects are those objects of meditation. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49315 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok2 sukinderpal Hi Herman, Herman: Thank you for sharing your reflections on this. I also appreciated your good humour. Sukinder: And thanks for your response, even when I thought that you might possibly be put off by my position stating to the effect that the Buddha is the author of the Abhidhamma. But more about this below. Herman: I wonder, is it panna that understands that it wasn't the Buddha who taught this theory of citta-vitthi :-) Sukinder: In other posts you have tried to point out the distinction between `believing' and `directly experiencing'. I like to think about different levels of `understanding' rightly, and about having a `wrong' understanding altogether. But before I say anything further, I first like to point out the well known distinction made in the commentaries between the `knowing' of sanna, citta and panna. These have been compared to the experience of a `coin' by a village boy, an adult villager and a money lender. Now back to your statement above. As far as `proof' is concerned, I think you will agree that we can't rely on any authority about historical facts. Also I think you will agree that much of what we accept and reject has been from the stand point of ignorance and often wrong view, any reasoning based on this is likely therefore to be unreliable. You state that you reject the Abhidhamma based on your understanding of the Suttas, seeing how both can't be coming from the same author. I on the other hand can't but increasingly come to have greater confidence that it is the Buddha himself and no one else who could have taught it. You may point out of course that I am impressed by the `details' and this is what I am alluding to. But no, I am in fact impressed by the `simplicity' of it and any admittance to lack of understanding does not concern details, but from observing the `real' lack of understanding from moment to moment, day in and day out. In fact often it seems that we would rather `prefer' complicated conventional explanations to those which ensue from a correct grasp of the Abhidhamma. Of course we do have to make a distinction between the theory, right understanding of this and any direct experience (And we are reminded of this again and again and this in itself is I believe, a kind of practice more fruitful than any `doing', i.e. formal sitting.). Most people *believe* in the idea of formal practice, but I think this is in fact a result of faulty reasoning and hence driven by a `belief' ;-). That said, I must admit that `belief' is an easy way out and I resort to it most of the time. But there is another possible scenario, which is; there is `understanding' at what ever level and this is followed by many moments of taking any conclusion made by this, as `belief'. However I wouldn't put this on the same level of `blind acceptance' based on authority, would you? ;-) But even if there are beliefs which are `not' built upon any such understanding but instead on faith in the Buddha or commentaries, is this any worse than one's reasoning based on `conventional experience' and/or logical deduction? What if the former has as a basis it being consistent with other aspects of the Teachings while the latter is `wrong view', hence inconsistent with the Dhamma? And what is experience as we conventionally understand and seek to have? Does tasting mango, smelling ammonia, or `seeing devas' eradicate doubt? Are we happy to only place one position about existence/non existence against one another? I don't think the Buddha's teachings are directed towards this kind of `seeing and understanding' things. In fact much of our `questionings' may seem to us like `wise consideration' but actually be a manifestation of doubt, a real hindrance to the path!! This leads me to my villager/money lender example and your comment below. Herman: I am happy to accept, for myself, that nothing at all can be said about the persistence or lack of persistence of rupas, given that namas are the lowest common denominator in the equation. Sukinder: I think this is a logical deduction you make based on what you understand as being the function and characteristic of citta. I think you forget to make a distinction between this and the accompanying cetasikas. While citta experiences just the present `object', sanna marks it. So when the citta is accompanied by panna, this `understands' in a way that citta doesn't and neither does it simply mark. The understanding happens in a way that *more* about realities is known. So just as a money lender experiencing the very same coins as the villager and the boy, his `knowing' of it however goes `beyond' that which is known by citta and sanna. Your position above may seem like a reasonable one to take since there is no evidence. But what if it is conditioned by doubt? I rather trust the Abhidhamma, making a distinction of course, the level of this acceptance. ;-) I know I have not stated anything new to you, but I wanted to express myself. :-) I meant to say more, but must rush home now. Metta, Sukinder 49316 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H. - Thank you for responding to my questions. Also, thank you for correcting my big typing error (not spelling error) - yes, samma- samadhi, not samma-ditthi. KH: I think samma-samadhi is developed by countless moments (over countless lifetimes) of concentration - with insight - on conditioned paramattha dhammas. Tep: Your answer is a typical argument by most typical abhidhamma- oriented people! Of course, it is because the countless number of citta that arise and dissolve all the time, then samma-samadhi that accompanies each citta must undergo infinite number of "moments" through time. But it is not the main point. KH: Concentrating - for however long - on concepts(as in jhana) will never develop samma-samadhi of the Eightfold Path. Tep: This comment shows that, perhaps, you have not concentrated enough on the Buddha's description of samma-samadhi in DN 22 and many other suttas -- same definition over and over again for samadhi indriya and samadhi bala, same definition even when he did not mention satipatthana or "insight". Nyanatiloka Dictionary: "Right concentration (samma-samadhi), as the last link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), is defined as the 4 meditative absorptions (jhana)." Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > ----------- > Tep: > I, in general, agree with your linking of the "eightfold path > consciousness" with "strong form of samadhi-cetasika". However, it is > not clear in your message whether one may make the following > inferences. Do you care to respond? > > 1. All kinds of Stream-winner must have attained at least the 1st > rupa-jhana. > > 2. Samma-ditthi (right concentration) is the same as fulfilment of > the four rupa-jhanas (see DN 22 for the definition of right > concentration). > -------------- > > (Correcting your typo - Inference 2 should read, "Samma-samadhi > (right concentration) . . .") > > > No, I don't make either inference. I am convinced, by many DSG > discussions over the years, that neither is true. > > It seems to me that Inference 2 could not possibly be true. If the > samma-samadhi taught by the Buddha were the same as jhana > concentration (taught by many people), then it would not be unique to > the Dhamma - which I am sure it is. > > I understand that the concentration found in the Eightfold Path (and > described in the sutta you quoted) is of similar intensity to the > concentration of the jhanas, but it is not the same. > (snipped) 49317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha nilovg Hi Sarah, op 26-08-2005 10:55 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > > K.Sujin stressed that pa~n~natti refers to anything which is not a > reality. Rupas of the past and future refer to rupas which were or will be > present rupas. When we think about them, we think about concepts or > pa~n~natti of rupas. ------- N: I find this very clear. Helps to understand the recent texts about past, present, future khandhas. Some q. are food for considering. I should not get too much in abstractions or speculations with my questions. Let us ask especially about the present moment. Nina. 49318 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 258- Attachment/lobha (k) philofillet Hi Howard > I have no disagreement with your words that I have copied below. But > could you please remind me of what my "question about how studying nama and rupa > helps to purify sila" was? I don't recall asking about that. Turns out that it was my misunderstanding. I've been dipping in and out of DSG without reading carefully enough, and what I had seen was the following, which are actually the words of Lodewijk, I think, rather than yours. Sorry about that. Well, no matter whose words they were - still an interesting point. >>>>> N: This is meant as an encouragement. He thinks you eminently expressed a difficult point. ------- quote: I would like to discuss how the very understanding of nama and rupa leads to > purer siila. > ------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that is a *very* important matter to discuss!! (end) I see also that what is mentionned here is, "the understanding of nama and rupa" (could be satipatthana) not "the studying of nama and rupa" (could not be satipatthana) which I said. Phil 49319 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Dan & James) - In a message dated 8/26/05 5:22:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Dan and James, The following is of no soteriological value whatsoever. It is an intellectual exercise. I am not going to participate because I have better things to do with my time, but it could be an interesting and fun activity to do a compare / contrast of the Suttas with the opus of Buddhagosa. Institutional Buddhism and Buddhagosa are inseparable, and the latter's influence on the former is inestimable. I see distinct similarities between St Paul's influence on Christianity and Buddhagosa's influence on Buddhism. -------------------------------- Howard: I strongly agree with the foregoing. -------------------------------- It is my personal view only, but I see both men as empire/temple builders. Which is a total misunderstanding and misappropriation of the Teachings of Jesus and Gautama. Jesus and Gautama have much in common, by the way. But that's another story. ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, I do think the original messages were more pure, but I wouldn't write off the either of the other folks. ;-) ---------------------------------- Be good now, you hear :-) Herman ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49320 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child philofillet Hi Herman > I'm pretty sure for myself that an agitated mind sees nothing very > clearly. The foundation for understanding is a tranquil mind. But, > hey, I accept what works for me doesn't necessarily apply elsewhere. But the agitation is not the mind - the mind is the citta. The agitation is cetasika. I guess you don't like cetasika, so you could say that the agitation is sankhara khanda, which is the same thing. So this agitation can be an object of understanding. It's not at the center of everything, controlling everything. It's understood, potentially. And that moment of understanding is kusala, and there is calm at that moment, kusala calm. I guess this is like the kusala eye in the middle of the akusala storm or something. I remember last summer when I was taking a train from Montreal (where I had gotten up to some unbelievably unwholesome shenanigans) having not slept all night, with a hangover from just about every drug on earth and enough booze to float the titanic and the weight of enormous sins sitting on me as I went to Toronto to catch the flight back to Japan. I was reading Abhidhamma in Daily Life (clutching it like a baby bottle is more like it) and a passage about how being aware of our akusala can be condition for gratitude to the Buddha, who bestowed upon us that gift of his wisdom, which is the only way out of akusala. So the weight of that akusala was off my shoulders (though I knew the kamma will have its day.) So calmness came in the middle of that storm of guilt and lust and whatever. Understanding brings us calm wherever we are and whatever is going on. But I have also posted here that I think possibly doing something like metta meditation to calm an agitated mind even if that meditation is done without right understanding could be a helpful condition for insight. So I know what you mean. Let's beware though how much subtle attachment can be involved in what we take for calm. >> I know a little bit about myself, perhaps some of it will be useful > for you to know. Do not believe your own stories about why you loose > the plot now and again. The reason you loose the plot is because you > see things that aren't there. "My Life" by Phil, as is "My World" by > Herman, are bestsellers in our own minds. Pity they are bullshit from > cover to cover :-) Haha. What a coincidence. I was earlier this evening reading a book review from the New Yorker about a book on Bullshit. And there was a mention of people talking about their religious convictions being full of it and I thought of myself and the way I spout off here. You do as well. You're right, we're all full of bullshit though I would call it lobha, moha and dosa. It's the human condition. Approaching Dhamma with an oblivious attitude towards it will lead to wasting the rare opportunity to be human and learn from the Buddha's teaching. > Should people strive to see suffering if they don't? Not on your > nellie! But any life lived honestly will soon have the reality of > suffering banging on the doors, and with it the realisation that "My > Life" by Phil is the source of that suffering. Exactly! That's why it's so wonderfully liberating (even at the intellectual level, as I never tire of adding) to understand that Phil doesn't exist. And it's so obvious to me that he doesn't. I mean, even in science he's just atoms and whatever. In Dhamma he's just khandas, or dhatus, or ayatanas, or citta, cetasika and rupa or whatever other way the Buddha found to teach about it. There is nothing but nama and rupa, the things we spend our precious lives fretting about don't actually exist. I find this hugely liberating. But it could just be an escape mechanism or something. > > And you're one of the more honest blokes I know. That stands you in good stead. > > Don't take your autobiography too seriously, and may the understanding > of the Lord be with you always :-) Thanks Herman. I will no doubt be snapping at you again someday but your kind and tolerant response to this latest outburst will help to condition less of that sort of thing, I guess. Phil 49321 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:35am Subject: Ven. Buddhaghosa -- a Temple Builder? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and Herman (and RobertK) - Herman: >I see distinct similarities between St Paul's influence on Christianity >and Buddhagosa's influence on Buddhism. > It is my personal view only, but I see both men as empire/temple > builders. > Howard: > Well, I do think the original messages were more pure, but I wouldn't write off the either of the other folks. ;-) Tep: Honestly, I do not understand what you two are talking about! Can either one of you simplify the conversation a bit for me, please? What is your opinion, Robert? Sincerely, Tep. ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Dan & James) - > > In a message dated 8/26/05 5:22:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@g... writes: > Hi Dan and James, > > The following is of no soteriological value whatsoever. It is an > intellectual exercise. I am not going to participate because I have > better things to do with my time, but it could be an interesting and > fun activity to do a compare / contrast of the Suttas with the opus of > Buddhagosa. > > Institutional Buddhism and Buddhagosa are inseparable, and the > latter's influence on the former is inestimable. I see distinct > similarities between St Paul's influence on Christianity and > Buddhagosa's influence on Buddhism. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > I strongly agree with the foregoing. > -------------------------------- > > > It is my personal view only, but I see both men as empire/temple > builders. Which is a total misunderstanding and misappropriation of > the Teachings of Jesus and Gautama. Jesus and Gautama have much in common, by the way. But that's another story. > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I do think the original messages were more pure, but I wouldn't write off the either of the other folks. ;-) > ---------------------------------- 49322 From: "frank" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:31am Subject: dhamma soup for the studious dhamma_service "Studying the Dhamma by reading and listening results in perceptions and concepts. Studying the Dhamma by practicing it results in actual levels of Dhamma in the heart." - Luang Pu 49323 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... nidive Hi Howard & RobertK, > The main reference Harvery gives is S.IV.399-400. He quotes a passage > with the Buddha saying "At a time when a flame, Vaccha, flung by the wind, goes a > very long way, I declare thet flame to be fuelled by the wind (vaato). At > that time, Vaccha, wind is the fuel (upaadaanam) ... At the time, Vaccha, when a > being lays aside this body and is not arisen (anuppanno) in another body, for > this I say craving is the fuel. Indeed, Vaccha, craving is the fuel at that > time." That seems to describe a bhaava or transitional phase between lives. > He also references A.II.134 and D.I.83 (with the wandering on the road > being the intermediate state). I found a similar rendition of this sutta at ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/likefire/2-2. html 'Just as a fire, Vaccha, burns with sustenance, and not without sustenance, even so I declare the rebirth of one who has sustenance, and not of one without sustenance.' 'But, Venerable Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you say is its sustenance then?' 'Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I say that it is wind-sustained. The wind, Vaccha, is its sustenance at that time.' 'And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body, what do you say is its sustenance then?' 'Actually, Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body, I say that it is craving-sustained. Craving, Vaccha, is its sustenance at that time.' S XLIV.9 ----------------------------------------------------------------- The meaning of "not yet attained another body" is unclear. Does it mean an embryo? A developing foetus? A full-term baby? Conventionally speaking, I think Vaccha refers to a full-term baby whose has just been born with eyes, ears, nose, mouth, limbs, body. I think this is what is meant by "attained another body". Afterall, the Buddha "declares the REBIRTH of one who has sustenance". It would not be wrong to say that an embryo or a developing foetus is craving-sustained. I think the whole idea of this sutta is to tell Vaccha that craving is what sustains rebirth. Regards, Swee Boon 49324 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:36am Subject: Should we throw away the Tipitaka, Herman? buddhistmedi... Dear Herman (and all) - In the past I often reflected with admiration on your comments that, at times, seemed to show deep knowledge of Buddhism coupled with right thinking. However, some of your recent comments (see below) have made me rethink over your wisdom. Is it a non-Buddhist philosopher's wisdom? Or is it the wisdom of a hard- to-find-genious of supreme self-confidence who does not look for a refuge in the Triple gem: one who is destined to ecome 'Independently Enlightened One' one day? But as RobertK has written, a pacceka-buddha has strong saddha in the Triple-gem( under previous Buddhas) as the conditions. Recent Comments of Herman ------------------------------------------- 1. " The view that the right monks, at the right time, assimilated the right understanding and rightly transmitted it to the next generation, thereby each time thwarting the wrong views that abound, is a romantic one IMHO". 2. "On a technical note only - not everyone needs the triplegem". [From Nyanatiloka: 'pacceka-buddha' : an 'Independently Enlightened One'; or Separately or Individually (=pacceka) Enlightened One.] 3. "Happily we do have access to the same reality that the Buddha penetrated. So any handed down scripture can be tested for validity. As I often do". May I Ask a Few Questions? ----------------------------------------- Tep: I would like to ask a few questions for clarification. How strong or weak is your saddha on the Triple-gem? Do you consider yourself a true Buddhist who practices the noble eightfold path? ------------------------------------ >Herman: The tipitaka is a collection of teaching devices. Do we take >refuge in the tipitaka, or in the Dhamma? As imperfect as the Tipitaka may seem to you, without its guidance how would we learn about the Dhamma(e.g. the noble eightfold path)? From saddha comes the right view that sees the real Dhamma. Sincerely, Tep ======= 49325 From: nina Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:11am Subject: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh. Sujin nilovg Dear Friends, Nina. 49326 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhistmedi... Hi, Frank (Htoo and Dan D.) - Thank you for posting LuangPu 's dhamma. In your post LuangPu recommended a way to avoid perceptions & concepts is to study the Dhamma "by practicing it" which "results in actual levels of Dhamma in the heart." Below is a detailed description of how to "practice the Dhamma" by LuangPu. [The "heart" means 'citta' or 'mano'.] "There were many disciples who asked Luang Pu, "I have tried to practice meditation for a long time but cannot attain any calm. My heart goes out to external things all the time. Are there any other effective methods of practice?" Luang Pu recommended another method saying, "Even if the heart is not calm, one should not let it go out too far. One should use mindfulness, looking within the body to see impermanence, dukkha and no-self and the repulsiveness of the body. There is no meaning to this body, no core. When the heart sees this clearly it will become tired of these states of impermanence, dukkha and no-self. Weariness of the vanities of the world, disinterest and a lessening of desire will develop. This practice of internal mindfulness can also cut the grasping after the Khandhas (body-mind personality)." http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ I do hope that his explanation helps those who have been obsessed with no-self, not-self and the Paramattha dhamma. Indeed, anattanupassana is for the purpose of cutting the grasping after the body-mind personality, nothing else. Sincerely, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > "Studying the Dhamma by reading and listening results in perceptions and concepts. Studying the Dhamma by practicing it results in actual levels of Dhamma in the heart." > > - Luang Pu 49327 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma soup for the studious nilovg Dear Frank, These are not your words, they are Luang Pu's, but just a remark: you have to know how to practise, thus, study first. Nina. op 26-08-2005 18:31 schreef frank op frank@...: > "Studying the Dhamma by reading and listening results in perceptions and > concepts. Studying the Dhamma by practicing it results in actual levels of > Dhamma in the heart." > > - Luang Pu 49328 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:03pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious philofillet Hi Nina, Frank and all > These are not your words, they are Luang Pu's, but just a remark: you have > to know how to practise, thus, study first. Nina, may I add something or perhaps clarify what you wrote above? Because "know how to practise" still leaves people vulnerable to technique-ism. Maybe we could say something like "you have to understand first for "practise" to arise, thus, study first." Phil > > > "Studying the Dhamma by reading and listening results in perceptions and > > concepts. Studying the Dhamma by practicing it results in actual levels of > > Dhamma in the heart." > > > > - Luang Pu 49329 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/25/05 6:09:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > Dear Howard, > To you have the pali sutta that talks about this intermediate state? > Robertk > ========================== > The main reference Harvery gives is S.IV.399-400. He quotes a passage > with the Buddha saying "At a time when a flame, Vaccha, flung by the wind, goes a > very long way, I declare thet flame to be fuelled by the wind (vaato). At > that time, Vaccha, wind is the fuel (upaadaanam) ... At the time, Vaccha, when a > being lays aside this body and is not arisen (anuppanno) in another body, for > this I say craving is the fuel. Indeed, Vaccha, craving is the fuel at that > time." That seems to describe a bhaava or transitional phase between lives. > He also references A.II.134 and D.I.83 (with the wandering on the road > being the intermediate state). > BTW, this issue seems to me to be of little import as regards the heart > of the Dhamma! I don't persoanlly care what the facts are with regard to it. > All existence is in the moment, whatever the nature of that existence might be. > > _________ Dear Alan, Howard and Swee Boon, Thank you for the references and comments. To me this sutta is giving a metaphor that is unrelated to the idea of anatarabhava (about craving being the fuel as Swee boon said). I think there are many, many many suttas where the conventional language of the suttas can be used to find some hint of self. The atthasalini says that those who study suttanta wrongly invariably gain wrong view because the Buddha uses conventional terms such as being and person. Why then is antarabhava seen as a heresy and necessarily involved with self view: Ledi Sayadaw writes: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/q&aledi.htm "When a sentient being leaves one existence, it is reborn either as a human being, a Deva, a Brahma, an inferior animal, or as a denizen of one of the regions of hell. The sceptics and the ignorant people hold that there are intermediate stages--- Antarabhava--- between these; and that there are beings who are neither of the human, the Deva or the Brahma worlds, nor of any one of the states of existences recognized in the Scriptures,--- but are in an intermediate stage. Some assert that these transitional beings are possessed of the five khandhas"enquote Why did the Puggalavadins ( who believed in a subtle self) believe in anatarabhava? This article is by a Sri lankan who rejects Theravada. I quote over half of it as I think it helps to se what the controversy is about. generally the people who favour anatrabhava will reject Abhidhamma and possibly have somthing in common with The Puggalavadins and other matters. It is indeed a very big matter: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/7077/Aloka/journal7.htm Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings by D. Amarasiri Weeraratne Between the 2nd and 3rd Councils 236 years after the Buddha the Conservative Elders (The Theras) broke off into two sects, viz: Vibjjavadins and Sautrantikas. Almost simultaneously the Mahasangikas also broke off into a sect called Puggalavadin. (Believers in persons.) The Vibjjavadins broke off into three sects, one of which was the Theravada - the Buddhism we have in Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos etc. Thus you will see that the Puggalavada Sect and the Theravada Sect were the earliest of the sectarian divisions in Buddhism. Controversy on Abhidhamma The chief characteristic of the Puggalavada Sect was their rejection of the Abhidharma Pitaka as a teaching of the Buddha. They maintained that Abhidharma is apocryphal scripture cooked up by the Theravada Elders between the 2nd and 3rd Councils and adopted at the 3rd Council. The Puggalavadins as well as Sautranitikas rejected the Abhidharma Pitaka and had only 2 Pitakas viz: Sutta and Vinaya Pitakas. In the Suttas the Buddha speaks of a person who fares on in Sansara, performs good and bad deeds and receives reward or distribution for them. In fact the entire Sutta Pitaka is based on the assumption that there is a person (puggala) who is subject to the sufferings in Sansara. The purpose of the Buddha-Dhamma is to eliminate this suffering and help them to attain Nirvana. The Anatta concept The Abhidharma denies the existence of a person or an individual. It accepts only fleeting thought moments which arise and flash instantly. In this process there is no person or being. The Buddha taught the Suttas to men on earth, referring to a person. In the Abhidharma he is supposed to have preached to the gods in which he denies the existence of a person or an individual. In order to bridge the gulf of this inconsistency the Abhidharma scholars invented the theory of two truths. The Puggalavadins could not accept the theory that the Buddha had taught two kinds of truth. Nowhere had he done so. The Theravadins cannot quote from any part of the Sutras where he has taught that there are two truths called Sammuti and Paramartha. Thus they refuted this contention and asserted that the Abhidharma Pitaka is a fabrication and required another concoction to maintain its validity. It is with the help of this fabrication that Abhidharma scholars reconcile the inconsistency in the Sutra and Abhidharma teachings. The Southern School of Buddhism Theravada Buddhism is Abhidharma oriented. All its commentaries and ancillary literature are written in a way to accommodate the Abhidarma. Ven. Buddhagosha asserted that the Abhidharma Pitaka is a teaching of the Buddha. But he himself admitted in the Atthasalini Commentary that there were ancient Sinhala Elders at Anuradhapura who challenged the validity of the Abhidharma Pitaka. They pointed out that the Buddha had taught in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra that we should not accept teachings presented to us in his name if they are inconsistent with the Sutra and the Vinaya teachings. They also asserted that in the Anagatabhaya Sutra the Buddha envisaged a time when monks will cook up doctrines and scriptures not taught by him and present them as the Buddha-word. He admonished his followers to carefully compare such teachings with the Sutras and the Vinaya and accept them only if they are compatible and consistent. Therefore Abhidharma being incompatible with the Sutra and Vinaya teaching was rejected by the Puggalawadins. The Sautrantika teachers too rejected the Abhidharma on the same grounds. The very name Sautrantika Sect means those who take only the Sutras as authoritative. The controversy on Antarbhava They accepted Abhidharma only to the extent that it is found in seed form in the Sutras. Another important teaching of the Puggalavadins was the doctrine of Antarabhava. The interim spirit existence between one life and another. This was denied by the Therevadins who asserted that the acceptance of Antarabhava by the Puggalavadins was due to a misunderstanding of some passages of the Sutras. The Puggalavadins maintained their position and showed that the misinterpretation of key passages is the work of Abhidharma oriented Theravada teachers, who tried to cut and hack the Buddha-word to suit their Abhidharma- oriented views. Their teaching was that their was no person, or being, but a mere flux of fleeting thought moments which are impersonal. The Puggalavadins considered this a bovine folly. The Puggalavadins taught that to deny the existence of a person is to bring down the whole edifice of the Buddha-Dharma. It is absurd to say that the burden carries itself, that mere suffering exists and there is no sufferer, or that the Path exists without anyone to tread the path. This is not Buddhism, it is the Buddhaghosha brand of Abhidharma Buddhism. The self and no-self The Puggalavadins point out that if there are no beings, the practise of Metta would not be possible, Karma and Rebirth would be meaningless, without a person faring on in Sansara. Memories of previous lives, the preaching of the Satipattana Sutra for the purification of beings and overcoming their sufferings would be meaningless, if there is no person. The Buddha said, "One person is born among men for the welfare and happiness of beings". Hundreds of such texts can be quoted from the Sutras. To deny a person in the ultimate sense (the highest truth) and accept him in a conventional sense is to talk with two tongues and dilute the truth of the Buddha-word. The Sutta Nipata says that "Buddhas have no two words." "Truth is one and not many". (Ekam hi saccam na dutiyamatthi). Two contrary truths is foreign to the Buddha¡¯s teaching. The chief difference between Puggalavada and Theravada comes with the acceptance and non-acceptance of the Abhidharma Pitaka as a teaching of the Buddha. Theravada is steeped in Abhidharma and is abhidharma oriented. The Puggala vadins have only two Pitakas namely Sutra and Vinaya Pitakas. The Puggalavadins took care not to use the word Atman or soul as is understood in Vedanta, i.e. an immutable self characterised by permanence, bliss and substance. The Puggala of the Pudgalavadins is a self that is subject to impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and is not to be considered as the essence or core for those reasons. This appears to be a halfway house between the Vedantic soul and the no-soul doctrine of the Theravadins. The Buddha is neither an anatmavadi nor atmavadi. The Puggalavadins teach that the puggala arises simultaneously with the five aggregates, is not within or outside them, but forms a structural unit with them."" end quote ================== RobertK 49330 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Robert - > ). > BTW, this issue seems to me to be of little import as regards the heart > of the Dhamma! I don't persoanlly care what the facts are with regard to it. > All existence is in the moment, whatever the nature of that existence might be. > > ++++++++= Dear Howard, Not a small matter in my opinion. Rebirth in Theravda is a teaching of becoming. A stream of consciousness (vinnanasota), a stream of becoming (bhavangasota). There is in the ultmate sense no being anywhere. Nor in rebirth does consciosness travel into a new body. It is the radical insight into reality gained by the Buddha that shows that what we have taken to be the same consciousness can't last for the briefest moment- it certainly can't go somewhere or pass from life to life. There are several pages about this including especially Visuddhimagga xvii 133-175. It is complex. I will try to put it as simply as possible. There is a lengthy explanation of how at the actual moment of death, due to several conditions, an object is taken by that consciousness (called cuti-citta) death-consciousness. This consciousness is not different from other types of consciousness that arise and pass away all day long - but it is given this name to identify it(of course each moment is not exactly the same as any other and seeing consciousness is different from hearing consciousness etc; but all have the general characteristic of experiencing an arammana). The next consciousness that arises is called patisandhara (rebirth) and again this is no different from other types of consciousness Although we call it conventionaly a 'new life' it is, just like now, simply a stream of arising and passing consciousnesses carrying on. At this moment this process of arising and passing, birth and death, (khanika marana) occurs but because of ignorance we don't perceive it. But truly we are utterly different from what we were a second ago - the reason we look and feel approximately the same is because similar conditions arise to replace the mentality and materiality that fell away. At conventional death and new birth the changes are more obvious because different kamma will produce results. Here are some pertinent quotes: XVII 164 "The former of these two states of consciousness is called death (cuti) because of falling and the later is called rebirth because of linking (patisandhara) across the gap separating the beginning of the next becoming". Note that there is no suggestion of the consciousness from the previous life going to the present life. The whole point is to make it clear that that is exactly NOT what happens. Nowhere is needed an 'intermediate being' (antarabhava) , why would anyone posit it, it doesn't make sense if we accept the explanation of rebirth above. Robertk 49331 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:42pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - You might have overlooked my post # 49326 about 'how to practice' the dhamma of LuangPu. Phil: > Because "know how to practise" still leaves people vulnerable to > technique-ism. Maybe we could say something like "you have to > understand first for "practise" to arise, thus, study first." > By the way, how can "practice" arise from a dhamma study? Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Nina, Frank and all > > > These are not your words, they are Luang Pu's, but just a remark: you have to know how to practise, thus, study first. > > Nina, may I add something or perhaps clarify what you wrote above? > Because "know how to practise" still leaves people vulnerable to > technique-ism. Maybe we could say something like "you have to > understand first for "practise" to arise, thus, study first." > > Phil > > > > > > "Studying the Dhamma by reading and listening results in > perceptions and concepts. Studying the Dhamma by practicing it results in actual levels of Dhamma in the heart." > > > > > > - Luang Pu 49332 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Robert) - In a message dated 8/26/05 12:40:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: Hi Howard & RobertK, > The main reference Harvery gives is S.IV.399-400. He quotes a passage > with the Buddha saying "At a time when a flame, Vaccha, flung by the wind, goes a > very long way, I declare thet flame to be fuelled by the wind (vaato). At > that time, Vaccha, wind is the fuel (upaadaanam) ... At the time, Vaccha, when a > being lays aside this body and is not arisen (anuppanno) in another body, for > this I say craving is the fuel. Indeed, Vaccha, craving is the fuel at that > time." That seems to describe a bhaava or transitional phase between lives. > He also references A.II.134 and D.I.83 (with the wandering on the road > being the intermediate state). I found a similar rendition of this sutta at ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/likefire/2-2. html 'Just as a fire, Vaccha, burns with sustenance, and not without sustenance, even so I declare the rebirth of one who has sustenance, and not of one without sustenance.' 'But, Venerable Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you say is its sustenance then?' 'Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I say that it is wind-sustained. The wind, Vaccha, is its sustenance at that time.' 'And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body, what do you say is its sustenance then?' 'Actually, Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body, I say that it is craving-sustained. Craving, Vaccha, is its sustenance at that time.' S XLIV.9 ----------------------------------------------------------------- The meaning of "not yet attained another body" is unclear. Does it mean an embryo? A developing foetus? A full-term baby? Conventionally speaking, I think Vaccha refers to a full-term baby whose has just been born with eyes, ears, nose, mouth, limbs, body. I think this is what is meant by "attained another body". Afterall, the Buddha "declares the REBIRTH of one who has sustenance". -------------------------------------------- Howard: My understanding of the Buddhist position is that rebirth occurs at the moment of conception. The Theravadin commentaries, I have been led to believe, consider rebirth to occur at the moment immediately following death. Of course, that, in fact, is the matter at issue here. But in any case, for me the words "when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body" sure seem to refer to an intermediate state, or what the Tibetans call a bardo. ------------------------------------------ It would not be wrong to say that an embryo or a developing foetus is craving-sustained. I think the whole idea of this sutta is to tell Vaccha that craving is what sustains rebirth. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that that is the point of the teaching, but this is a side issue that has some interest as well (though little importance IMO) ---------------------------------------. Regards, Swee Boon ==================== BTW, Swee Boon, it's a pleasure being in contact with you again! :-) It's been a while. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49333 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Dear KenH, K: > Many Buddhists today don't have Abhidhamma knowledge, and so, unlike > in the Buddha's day, they hear and teach the Dhamma in a totally > wrong way. M: The Buddha gave public discourses sometimes. While people may have been aware that he gave teachings deep in meaning this did not mean that everyone understood what he meant. There is one recorded instance when he actually gives up trying to explain anatta to a someone. The buddha said some people would get up and walk away in the middle of the discourse. Only a few would have had the conditions to penetrate into the meaning. There are recorded instances of monks developing wrong views. Some even commiting suicide based on teachings taken the wrong way, while the buddha was living in the local area. The journey from the conventional to the absolute is a gradual one after all. I think it is a bit idealistic to expect things to be very different back then. Puthajjanas are just that, living conventional lives. To hear him praise keeping precepts for example is very simple isnt it? Maybe there are varing depths of understanding of this, But to someone just starting off in the practice it is a way of avoiding akusala. When he told Singala the ways of worshipping the directions, it had very little abhidhamma if any at all. He seemed more interested in having singala move a notch up on the dhamma ladder. You must have seen the advice he gave to the thief ..in the AN. ------------------------------------- M>> I would however say that there is something to be done, further than > just understanding. That is the irradication of defilements. ..... That takes > something more than just knowledge. K> Do you mean that the eradication of defilements depends on more than > just insight? I think that is true in one sense; namely, that each of > the eight Path factors (not just Right Understanding) plays a roll in > eradication. M: Yes, that is correct. Can I ask what you think would be the difference in a jhana with and without right understanding is (having read your reply to Tep)? The same as drinking tea without and with right understanding? :) Not trying to be flippant, but trying to tease out the importance of right understanding. K: But remember, those factors are only cetasikas - arising > with and dependent upon their forerunner, right understanding. Apart > from them, there is no eradicating of any kind. That applies to all > moments in life: there is no 'doing' apart from the arising and > falling away of conditioned dhammas. M: Hmm.. what are the causes of right understanding? Attending to the dhamma, thinking about the dhamma ...the cause of that ..hearing reading the dhamma ..approaching the dhamma ...kalyanamitta ...being born ..the cause of that ..avijja. To pick on Right understanding as the 'forerunner' is conceptual and I think biased :) . Arising and passing away of dhammas is all there is. But the question is not that is it? What arises and passes away in an arahath's mind as opposed to yours and mine (im assuming youre not an arahath :) )? The defilements like craving aversion dont arise. Why is that? In what ways are defilements reduced and finally gotten rid of? There is no doing in an absolute sense. But it is there in a conventional sense. There is no sila in an absolute sense, but it is there in a conventional sense. K:..Perhaps your meaning was, 'the > eradication of defilements depends on more than just knowledge: it > depends on insight.' M: How do you differentiate knowledge from insight? (What I meant was your earlier meaning by the way). take care Matheesha 49334 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - You appear to be misunderstanding me. I am not saying that whether or not there is an intermediate BEING is unimportant. There is no BEING in reality at ANY time and under ANY conditions! During "this lifetime of mine" there is no being, nor was there ever. All I'm saying is that whether or not there are moments of consciousness in between official "lives" isn't particularly important. All there ever "exists" are the material and mental conditions in effect NOW - at this very moment: sights, sounds, tastes, smells, bodily sensations, and mental operations. No person to be found in a "past life" or in "this life" or in a "next life", or in between any of these (if there are any moments in between). Robert, you write below "There is in the ultmate sense no being anywhere. Nor in rebirth does consciosness travel into a new body. It is the radical insight into reality gained by the Buddha that shows that what we have taken to be the same consciousness can't last for the briefest moment- it certainly can't go somewhere or pass from life to life." I am in *complete* agreement with this, Robert, and nothing that I said or that I think has any bearing on this. I consider this to be FACT! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/26/05 4:59:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Robert - > ). > BTW, this issue seems to me to be of little import as regards the heart > of the Dhamma! I don't persoanlly care what the facts are with regard to it. > All existence is in the moment, whatever the nature of that existence might be. > > ++++++++= Dear Howard, Not a small matter in my opinion. Rebirth in Theravda is a teaching of becoming. A stream of consciousness (vinnanasota), a stream of becoming (bhavangasota). There is in the ultmate sense no being anywhere. Nor in rebirth does consciosness travel into a new body. It is the radical insight into reality gained by the Buddha that shows that what we have taken to be the same consciousness can't last for the briefest moment- it certainly can't go somewhere or pass from life to life. There are several pages about this including especially Visuddhimagga xvii 133-175. It is complex. I will try to put it as simply as possible. There is a lengthy explanation of how at the actual moment of death, due to several conditions, an object is taken by that consciousness (called cuti-citta) death-consciousness. This consciousness is not different from other types of consciousness that arise and pass away all day long - but it is given this name to identify it(of course each moment is not exactly the same as any other and seeing consciousness is different from hearing consciousness etc; but all have the general characteristic of experiencing an arammana). The next consciousness that arises is called patisandhara (rebirth) and again this is no different from other types of consciousness Although we call it conventionaly a 'new life' it is, just like now, simply a stream of arising and passing consciousnesses carrying on. At this moment this process of arising and passing, birth and death, (khanika marana) occurs but because of ignorance we don't perceive it. But truly we are utterly different from what we were a second ago - the reason we look and feel approximately the same is because similar conditions arise to replace the mentality and materiality that fell away. At conventional death and new birth the changes are more obvious because different kamma will produce results. Here are some pertinent quotes: XVII 164 "The former of these two states of consciousness is called death (cuti) because of falling and the later is called rebirth because of linking (patisandhara) across the gap separating the beginning of the next becoming". Note that there is no suggestion of the consciousness from the previous life going to the present life. The whole point is to make it clear that that is exactly NOT what happens. Nowhere is needed an 'intermediate being' (antarabhava) , why would anyone posit it, it doesn't make sense if we accept the explanation of rebirth above. Robertk /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49335 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... christine_fo... Hello Howard, I'm confused by your last two posts. In Post 49332, you say: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon (and Robert) - > for me the > words "when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body" > sure seem to refer to an intermediate state, or what the Tibetans call a bardo > ------------------------------------------ And in Post 49334, you say: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > Robert, you write below "There is in the ultmate sense no being anywhere. > Nor in rebirth does consciosness travel into a new body. It is the radical > insight into reality gained by the Buddha that shows that what we have taken to > be the same consciousness can't last for the briefest moment- it certainly > can't go somewhere or pass from life to life." > I am in *complete* agreement with > this, Robert, and nothing that I said or that I think has any bearing on > this. I consider this to be FACT! How would you fit the ephemeral rising and ceasing consciousness in the second extract into the 'bardo' of the first. What would you consider the bardo to be, and what is it's purpose? Isn't any re- becoming, no matter how brief, simply another 'life-time'? metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49336 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Vism.XIV,187 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 187. Herein, (a) firstly, 'according to extent': in the case of a single becoming of one [living being], previous to rebirth-linking is 'past', subsequent to death is 'future', between these two is 'present'. <71> ----------------------------- Note 71. 'Here when the time is delimited by death and rebirth-linking the term "extent" is applicable. It is made known through the Suttas in the way beginning "Was I in the past?" (M.i,18); for the past state is likewise mentioned as "extent" in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta too in the way beginning "He does not follow what is past (the past extent)" (M.iii,188). But when it is delimited in the ultimate sense as in the Addhaaniruttipatha Sutta thus, "Bhikkhus, there are three extents, the past extent, the future extent, and the present extent" (Iti.53), then it is appropriate as delimited by moment. Herein, the existingness of the present is stated thus, "Bhikkhus, of matter that is born ... manifested, it is said that 'It exists'" (S.iii,72), and pastness and futureness are respectively called before and after that' (Pm.496). 49337 From: "Alan McClure" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... alanmcclure3 > I have not yet seen references to other > suttas, however, which might be speaking of such an "in-between" state. Hello all, After sending off a few messages, I managed to procure a list of suttas that a certain person in the Pali group believed to speak of an "antaraabhava." We have already seen the last one on the list, the "Kutuhalasala Sutta" and have seen Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's rebuttal of the idea of the antaraabhava in this sutta. However, the others may be of interest to the conversation. I have not yet had the time to look at them. I have however found some online versions and have placed links below the various suttas. I am not claiming that these are the best translations by any means, but realize that not everyone might have paper copies of the suttas. Some of them are not translations but are only the pali versions. Hopefully all of this will be of interest to someone. Metta, Alan * Maha-tanha-sankhaya Sutta (MN 38) re: need for presence of gandhabba http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/038-mahatanhasankhaya-sutta-e1.htm * Sampasadaniya Sutta (DN 28) and Sangiti Sutta (DN 33) re: a bodhisattva's moment of entry into the mother's womb as "being mindful and fully aware". CF. Mahapadana Sutta (DN 14); Acchariya-abbhuta Sutta (MN 123); Pathama-tathagata-acchariya Sutta (AN 4: 27); Bhumicala Sutta (AN 8:70) DN 14: Pali: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/14-mahapadana-p.htm DN 28: Pali: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha3/28-sampasadaniya-p.htm DN 33: Pali: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha3/33-sangiti-p.htm MN 123: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/123-acchariyabbhutta-e.htm AN 4:27:? AN 8:70: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/007-capalavaggo-e.htm * Samyutta Nikaya (SN 48:15, 24, 66, 51:26, 54:5, 55:25); Purisagati Sutta (AN 7:55) and Samyojana Sutta (AN 4:131) re: antaraparinibbayi / "one who has abandoned the fetter of rebirth (upapatti-samyojana) without yet having abandoned the fetter of existence (bhava-samyojana)" SN 48:15:? SN 48:24:? SN 28:66:? SN 51:26:? SN 54:5:? SN 55:25:? AN 7:55:? AN 4:131: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/014-puggalavaggo-e.htm * Metta Sutta (Khp 9, Sn 1:8) etc re: bhuta (those who have been born) and sambhavesi (those seeking birth). Khp 9: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#9 Sn 1:8: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1-08c.html * Channovada Sutta (MN 144); Channa Sutta (SN 4:35:87); Catuttha-nibbana-patisamyutta Sutta (Ud 74)] mention the states of "here or beyond or between the two". MN 144: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada-e.htm SN 4:25:87: Ud 74(1): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud7-01.html Ud 74(2): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud7-02.html * Kutuhalasala Sutta (SN 4:44:9) also tells of "a being [who] has laid down his body but has not yet been reborn in another body". SN 4:44:9: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn44-009.html 49338 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/26/05 7:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello Howard, I'm confused by your last two posts. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see the slightest reason for confusion. :-) --------------------------------------- In Post 49332, you say: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon (and Robert) - > for me the > words "when a being sets this body aside and has not yet attained another body" > sure seem to refer to an intermediate state, or what the Tibetans call a bardo > ------------------------------------------ And in Post 49334, you say: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > Robert, you write below "There is in the ultmate sense no being anywhere. > Nor in rebirth does consciosness travel into a new body. It is the radical > insight into reality gained by the Buddha that shows that what we have taken to > be the same consciousness can't last for the briefest moment- it certainly > can't go somewhere or pass from life to life." > I am in *complete* agreement with > this, Robert, and nothing that I said or that I think has any bearing on > this. I consider this to be FACT! How would you fit the ephemeral rising and ceasing consciousness in the second extract into the 'bardo' of the first. ------------------------------------------ Howard: What's to fit? Whatever the content of experience may be, there is only "now" and the conditions that are in effect now. If the flow of content constitutes human experience, or animal experience, or hungry-ghost experience, etc, etc, or bardo dream-experience, it is just the arising and ceasing of dhammas. And there is NO BEING who is an experiencer of these .. ever. -------------------------------------------- What would you consider the bardo to be, and what is it's purpose? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Chris, I don't know or care whether there *are* bardo's. The Tibetans describe between-life bardo's [BTW, ordinary lifetimes are also considered bardo's of sorts i.e., transitions] as rather much like periods of dreaming in which only mind-door events occur, and they are said to have a duration of zero time up to 49 days. Inasmuch as I don't know whether there are such intermediate periods at all, I certainly can't speak of their purpose. [BTW, what is the "purpose" of THIS lifetime?? ;-)) The notion of purpose presumes an agent or creator, I believe. It suggests design.] As to momentary arising of phenomena, if there were such intermediate periods, whatever would be arising and ceasing during them are said to be mind-door objects only. --------------------------------------------- Isn't any re- becoming, no matter how brief, simply another 'life-time'? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, that's a matter of definition. If the alleged bardo dream-realms are not any of the standard realms of rebirth, which I understand is what the Tibetans believe, then I suppose it would be formally incorrect to characterize bardo's as "lifetimes". But, of course, a lifetime by any other name would smell just as badly! ;-) [Or just as sweet, of course, depending on the absence or presence of upadana.] ------------------------------------------ metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49339 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Should we throw away the Tipitaka, Herman? egberdina Hi Tep, Thank you for your honest questions. I appreciate your method very much. The following example embodies pretty much what I think about the issues you raise. It is from the website you quoted previously. == 28. The Essence Once during a Dhamma talk Luang Pu said, "In the rains-retreat of 1952, I made a determination that I would read the entire Ti-Pitaka (Buddhist Scriptures) in order to find the central meaning of Buddhism, the highest Dhamma truth or the end of dukkha. When I read it, I thought I would find where the Lord Buddha had encapsulated the truth. I read and investigated, finally finishing it but, except for one passage, I found no place where it touched my heart deep enough so that I could come to the conclusion, "This is the end of dukkha, the Way and the goal or that which is called Nibbana". This one passage concerned Sariputta who had just withdrawn from the state of Nirodha Sampatti (the attainment of cessation). The Lord Buddha asked a Dhamma question saying, "Sariputta, your complexion is quiet clear, your skin is bright, what has been your dwelling state?" Sariputta answered, "I have been dwelling in Sunnata (emptiness) Lord." "This, alone, touched my heart." == I hope this clarifies. If not, please ask more. I am now going to wreck this perfect example by rambling on a bit more :-) Yesterday I wrote about "My Life" by Phil. Everyone has a story "My Life". Many Westies here at dsg have a chapter in their book called "My love affair with the Dhamma". It tells the story of how the weary traveller, traversing the world in search of the truth, finds the Dhamma and sighs "Finally, something I can cling to". The hero wanders off, blissfully unaware of how the knuckles on their cramped hands have turned white from so tightly clutching their copy of the truth. Some Easties here at dsg have a chapter in their book called "What I was spoonfed from birth and have never regurgitated, digested or assimilated". It tells the story of how the child hero inherits a silted-up, stagnant pond, choked up with tradition, and is sworn to not dreding it out. There is a distant and vague memory of a once flowing, bubbling, living river but the hero is compelled by his oath to hand his fetid pond on to the next generation. Now, to answer your questions. > How strong or weak is your saddha on the Triple-gem? Unshakeable. But the Dhamma is unwritten and unwritable. And I honour wisdom wherever I trip over it, understanding that it is owned by noone. > Do you consider yourself a true Buddhist who practices the noble > eightfold path? > ------------------------------------ Like the Buddha, I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Like Jesus, I do not consider myself a Christian. Like you, I do what I do. > > >Herman: The tipitaka is a collection of teaching devices. Do we take > >refuge in the tipitaka, or in the Dhamma? > > As imperfect as the Tipitaka may seem to you, without its guidance > how would we learn about the Dhamma(e.g. the noble eightfold path)? > From saddha comes the right view that sees the real Dhamma. Beyond the tipitaka, the bible, "My Life", clinging, lies terror. Beyond terror lies emptiness. Kind Regards Herman 49340 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Howard, I agree with you. == On 27/08/05, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Dan & James) - > > In a message dated 8/26/05 5:22:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Dan and James, > > The following is of no soteriological value whatsoever. It is an > intellectual exercise. I am not going to participate because I have > better things to do with my time, but it could be an interesting and > fun activity to do a compare / contrast of the Suttas with the opus of > Buddhagosa. > > Institutional Buddhism and Buddhagosa are inseparable, and the > latter's influence on the former is inestimable. I see distinct > similarities between St Paul's influence on Christianity and > Buddhagosa's influence on Buddhism. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > I strongly agree with the foregoing. > -------------------------------- > > > It is my personal view only, but I see both men as empire/temple > builders. Which is a total misunderstanding and misappropriation of > the Teachings of Jesus and Gautama. Jesus and Gautama have much in > common, by the way. But that's another story. > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I do think the original messages were more pure, but I wouldn't > write off the either of the other folks. ;-) > ---------------------------------- Just like the great Nyanatiloka was a progenitor of Buddhism in the West, the great Buddhagosa played his role in his day. I don't think for a moment that these gentlemen set out to have the enormous influence they did. And if they believed their intentions created the result, well, they're just plain wrong, aren't they :-)? And neither you or I think it disrespectful to identify what is spin, no matter how great the mind that originated it. Kind Regards Herman 49341 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:14pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Herman, ------------- H: > I was happy to hear what a great time everyone had at your "pad" recently. If I understood it right, you designed it yourself ? Did you contribute on the building side as well? Don't mind tinkering myself. -------------- Thanks Herman, I did design it - after borrowing most of my ideas from display homes. And yes, the builder did employ me as a labourer - when he wasn't fighting with me. :-) ------------- H: > The following is not of any soteriological value. It is textual criticism type stuff, purely for fun. Nothing wrong with a bit of fun, though :-) > KH: > > Many Buddhists today don't have Abhidhamma knowledge, and so, unlike > in the Buddha's day, they hear and teach the Dhamma in a totally > wrong way. > > .................. H: > We may actually be in agreement on this, but only if you are using your words a bit generally. I'm thinking of a sutta like MN140, the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta. The Buddha teaches anicca, anatta, dukkha, based on six elements, contact, feeling and a few other tid-bits. It is abhidhammish, but not Abhidhamma. ------------- I would have thought it was pure Abhidhamma. We must be using different definitions. ------------- H: > Are you using the word Abhidhamma strictly, as in exactly what is in the Abhidhamma, including the dreaded Katthavhatthu (paramattha) or are you using abhidhamma as a method? ------------ The word"paramattha" is nothing to be suspicious of: it is the same as "elements" "khandhas" etc. But you have been told that a million times. I don't know why won't you accept it. What is the difference between the Abhidhamma found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Abhidhamma found in the suttas - the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, for example? --------------------- H: > If the latter, we agree. If the former, you are obviously wrong :-) --------------------- :-) Before I commit myself, you will have to explain what you mean by "abhidhamma as a method." Ken H 49342 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Tep, ----------------------- KH: > > I think samma-samadhi is developed by countless moments (over countless lifetimes) of concentration - with insight - on conditioned paramattha dhammas. > > ......... Tep: > Your answer is a typical argument by most typical abhidhamma- oriented people! Of course, it is because the countless number of citta that arise and dissolve all the time, then samma-samadhi that accompanies each citta must undergo infinite number of "moments" through time. But it is not the main point. --------------- I'm not sure that you have understood my answer. My emphasis was not on there being 'countless moments' of concentration: it was on the fact that those moments must be accompanied by insight into the nature of paramattha dhammas. I am suggesting (rightly or wrongly) that it is only concentration-with-mundane-insight that develops into (conditions) supramundane concentration. I would like your opinion on this matter. Does it seem strange to you that supramundane Right Concentration - as found in the Buddha's unique Eightfold Path - should be the exactly the same as mundane concentration found in the non-Buddhist, yogi's path? ----------------------------------- KH: > > Concentrating - for however long - on concepts (as in jhana) will never develop samma-samadhi of the Eightfold Path. > >........... Tep: > This comment shows that, perhaps, you have not concentrated enough on the Buddha's description of samma-samadhi in DN 22 and many other suttas -- same definition over and over again for samadhi indriya and samadhi bala, same definition even when he did not mention satipatthana or "insight". ------------------------------------ Suppose someone asked, "Describe a zebra," and received the answer, "Paint black stripes on a white horse, and you have a zebra." He would be wrong to take that advice too literally, and to set up a zoo with painted horses being passed off as zebras. But, even so, he would have enough information to know a zebra when he saw one. I feel sure it is the same with samma-samadhi and the other Path factors. They are supramundane and, therefore, they are different from anything known in mundane consciousness. But, even so, they can be described by likening them to mundane realities. If you check the Mayhasatipatthana Sutta, you might agree that all eight factors - not just samma-samadhi - are described by likening them to mundane, everyday, phenomena. I will attach the relevant extract below. (My apologies for giving Ven. Thanissaro's poor quality translation.) Ken H "And what is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from illicit sex. This is called right action. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. 49343 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Imperturbable Equanimity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Release is induced by disengaged non-identification! At Savatthi The Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, Form is transient...; Feeling is transient...; Perception is transient...; Constructions are transient...; Consciousness is transient. This transience is suffering! What is suffering is no-self! What is no-self should be seen as it really is with correct understanding thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self!' When one sees this thus, as it really is with correct understanding, one maintains no views on what is past. When one maintains no more views regarding the past, one neither maintains any views about the future. When one has relinquished any views relating to the future, one is not being possessed by stubborn glinging. Having no trace of immovable glinging left, the mind becomes disillusioned regarding form, feeling, perception, mental constructions, and consciousness. By that it is released from the mental fermentations through detached non-clinging... By being released, it is stilled... By being stilled, it is content... By being content, it is not agitated... Being unagitated, one indeed attains Nibbana! Right there and then, one instantly understands: 'Ended is this process of rebirth, this Noble Life has been lived, done is what had to be done, there is no state beyond this... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 55-58 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49344 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures, by Kh. Sujin matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: Satipatthåna is > not thinking, it is the development of direct understanding of the > characteristics of realities which are appearing.> M: I wonder if you would agree if I were to say Satipatthåna is not thinking, it is the development of direct understanding of the characteristics of realities which are appearing, ..by direct observation and comprehension. metta Matheesha 49345 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:53am Subject: dhamma dictionary (Thai) jjnbdal Dear All: I just found a dhamma dictionaries in the following link. The word definition is also shown in English. Unfortunately, the alphabetical order is based on Thai language. Still English words are searchable via search function in acrobatreader. Best Regards, jaran http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/thai-dict.html http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma0.pdf http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma1.pdf http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma2.pdf http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma3.pdf 49346 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:07am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 260- Attachment/lobha (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] The Buddha reminded people of the many forms of lobha in order to help them to develop right understanding. This is the aim of the many classifications of realities we find in the scriptures. Taùhå, for example, is another word which denotes lobha. Taùhå is usually translated as craving. Taùhå can be classified in the following way (1): kåma-taùhå or sensuous craving bhava-taùhå or craving for existence vibhava-taùhå or craving for non-existence Kåma-taùhå is craving for the sense-objects which are experienced through the six doors as well as craving for kåmåvacara cittas (cittas of the sense-sphere) and the accompanying cetasikas. We cling not only to visible object or sound but also to seeing and hearing. We want to see and hear, we want to go on experiencing objects through the senses. Kåma-taùhå may be accompanied by wrong view or it may be unaccompanied by wrong view. Bhåva-taùhå is craving for becoming. This kind of clinging may be accompanied by wrong view or not. The kind of bhava-taùhå which is accompanied by wrong view, diììhi, is “eternity view”, the belief that realities last. Because of eternity view one believes that there is a self who will continue to exist forever. There may also be clinging to rebirth without the wrong view of self who continues to exist. Clinging to the result of rúpa-jhåna (fine-material jhåna), which is rebirth in a rúpa-brahma plane, and clinging to the result of arúpa-jhåna (immaterial jhåna), which is rebirth in an arúpa-brahma plane, are forms of clinging which are included in bhava-taùhå. Vibhava-taùhå, craving for non-becoming, is annihilation-belief which is a kind of wrong view. This is the belief that there is a self who will be annihilated after death. People who have this view do not see that so long as there are conditions for the arising of nåma and rúpa, they will arise again and again. Since they do not understand this they believe that there is no rebirth. *** 1) Book of Analysis, Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, Analysis of Small Items, §916. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49347 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:24am Subject: Dhamma Threrad ( 506 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) Hetu has been discussed in the previous posts. 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) There are 7 jhanangas or 7 factors that cause unwavering mind. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'joy' 4. somanassa or 'mental pleasure' 5. domanassa or 'mental displeasure' 6. ekaggataa or 'one-pointedness' 7. upekkha or 'equanimity' 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' Vicaara or sustained application is also 'application' to an object. To differentiate it from vitakka it is modified as 'sustained'. Vicarati means 'move about in' 'walk' 'wander'. Vicaara means 'investigation' 'consideration' 'examination'. So vicaara is like someone who wander about to enquire and examine what the matter is exactly. Vicaara has the power of sticking to an object and it will not depart. Vitakka is like pushing toward an object or vitakka put the mind on the object. Vicaara is like drawing the mind nearer to an object so that the mind cannot depart and the mind wander about and examine about the object, review about the object. Like vitakka there are many different forms of vicaara. Vicaara is a dhamma that has flexible implication. That is when it accompanies akusala dhamma, vicaara becomes an akusala dhamma. If it arises with kusala dhamma it become kusala cetasika. Like vitakka, vicaara has many forms. They may be kaama-vicaara, byapaada-vicaara, vihimsa-vicaara, jhaana-vicaara, etc etc. When it becomes a jhananga it works effectively and the mind become unwavering mind and unshakable. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49348 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 507 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) Hetu has been discussed in the previous posts. 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) There are 7 jhanangas or 7 factors that cause unwavering mind. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'joy' 4. somanassa or 'mental pleasure' 5. domanassa or 'mental displeasure' 6. ekaggataa or 'one-pointedness' 7. upekkha or 'equanimity' The reason for repeatition is for acceleration of memory construction. Now piiti comes as its turn. Piiti is also a jhaana-factor or jhananga. Here as it is about dhamma stock 'piiti' here is not just for 'ruupa jhaana piiti' but 'piiti' in general when it works as unshakable dhamma. Among 121 total cittas there are 62 cittas that piiti can arise with. They are 1. 04 lobha muula cittas with piiti (somanassa cittas) 2. 01 somanassa kusala-vipaaka santirana citta 3. 01 hasituppaada citta 4. 12 kaama-sobhana cittas or sens-beauti consciousness with piiti 5. 11 1st jhaanas 6. 11 2nd jhaanas 7. 11 3rd jhaanas 8. 11 4th jhaanas ----- 62 somanassa cittas There is piiti in all these 62 cittas and there is no piiti in other 59 cittas. But not all piiti in these 62 cittas are working as jhananga. 5,6,7, 8 altogether 44 cittas are jhaana-piiti and it is jhananga. 1 has 4 lobha cittas and they can work as jhananga. When there is lobha-javana this may change into lobha-jhaana, which is unshakeable akusala and this is the dhamma that lead to disasters in today world. Because of this jhananga of lobha-piiti people are committing many of crimes, wicked performances, etc etc. Internet hacking, stealing, some killing, rapes etc etc arise from this jhananga piiti. 2 cannot work as jhananga as it is vipaaka citta while 3 can work as jhananga. Among 12 cittas of group 4 there are 4 vipaaka cittas and they do not work as jhaananga. Other 8 cittas can work as kaama-kusala-jhaananga. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49349 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: dhamma dictionary (Thai) buddhistmedi... Hi, Khun Jaran - I was glad to see the several links you had introduced. But when I clicked on the links 'Chapter 1' and 'Chapter 2', the pages could not be opened ( blank pages resulted). Could you please give me a clue as to what's wrong and how to correct it? Sincerely, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Dear All: > > I just found a dhamma dictionaries in the following link. The word > definition is also shown in English. Unfortunately, the alphabetical order > is based on Thai language. Still English words are searchable via search > function in acrobatreader. > > Best Regards, > jaran > > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/thai-dict.html > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma0.pdf > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma1.pdf > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma2.pdf > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma3.pdf 49350 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56am Subject: Re: Should we throw away the Tipitaka, Herman? Emptiness buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman - You wrote, "Thank you for your honest questions. I appreciate your method very much.". And I can tell that Herman is a man who usually has 'somanassa citta' and, because of that, he generally has no difficulty in being optimistic and looking for positiveness in others. I think we are similar with respect to optimism, and so I must tell you that I also like your honest answers and "appreciate your method very much". Before going on, I must admit that your language skill is extraordinary (BTW: how many languages can you understand?) and your $100 - $50,000 words have sometimes sent me looking for their meanings in a dictionary. Therefore, whenever my answers show a lack of understanding, please be a little patient with me. You quoted LuangPu saying that only 'sunnata' had touched his heart, not anything else in the whole Tipitaka. But remember that this extraordinary monk carefully studied the whole Tipitaka first, before passing his final judgement. The focus on emptiness is seen everywhere in his teachings (dhamma desana) and it reflects in his vipassana bhavana. To follow his example, we should also perform a thorough and careful search of the Tipitaka (regardless of how little value you may think of it) so that we too may be "lucky enough" to get the spark that ignites our firewood of wisdom. It is interesting to me the way you contrast the "Westies" to the "Easties" in regard to their application of the Dhamma. So, according to your story, neither of them can avoid clinging, and they both end up being as deluded as ever. What a sad story! You claim that your saddha in the Triple-gem is "unshakable". Concerning the Dhamma, you say : "But the Dhamma is unwritten and unwritable". I take it to mean the Dhamma of "your own discovery", and that you have not yet read the Tipitaka or learned the Dhamma from an Ariya puggala. So how do you come to appreciate and have unshakable faith in your own Dhamma? Lastly, I wonder where your saddha in the Sangha come from. Can you say a few words about that, if you don't mind? It is also interesting that you are not a Buddhist. And yet your saddha in the Triple-gem is unshakable. It is a riddle to me! What is the "terror" that lies beyond the Tipitaka? Is there another kind of terror that lies before the Tipitaka? ------------------------------------------------------ Herman: Beyond terror lies emptiness. Tep: Beyond everything is emptiness. Emptiness is also residing inside everything. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Now, to answer your questions. > > > How strong or weak is your saddha on the Triple-gem? > > Unshakeable. But the Dhamma is unwritten and unwritable. And I honour wisdom wherever I trip over it, understanding that it is owned by > noone. > > > > Do you consider yourself a true Buddhist who practices the noble > > eightfold path? > > ------------------------------------ > > Like the Buddha, I do not consider myself a Buddhist. > Like Jesus, I do not consider myself a Christian. > > Like you, I do what I do. > > > > > > >Herman: The tipitaka is a collection of teaching devices. Do we take refuge in the tipitaka, or in the Dhamma? > > > > As imperfect as the Tipitaka may seem to you, without its guidance > > how would we learn about the Dhamma(e.g. the noble eightfold path)? > > From saddha comes the right view that sees the real Dhamma. > > Beyond the tipitaka, the bible, "My Life", clinging, lies terror. > > Beyond terror lies emptiness. > > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > 49351 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:03am Subject: Greenspan and the Noble Truths buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Yesterday the leaving U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman talked about the U.S. housing boom and rapid increase in the housing prices: "Such an increase in market value is too often viewed by market participants as structural and permanent." Indeed, this is a perversion of view by the "market participants" -- seeing the impermanent as permanent. And he added, "newly abundant liquidity can readily disappear if investors grow wary for some reason and demand a higher risk premium for lending". The Fed Chairman is not a Buddhist, but he clearly sees 'origination' (rising of the housing prices) and 'cessation' (when the current liquidity disappears). But does this mean that he also sees the first and second Noble Truths? I don't think so! Sincerely, Tep ======== 49352 From: "frank" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:26am Subject: dhamma soup for studious (theory vs. practice) dhamma_service How much study of dhamma theory vs. practice? Luang Pu succinctly summarized: "No matter how much you think, you won't know. Only when you stop thinking will you know. But still, you have to depend on thinking so as to know." 49353 From: "frank" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:24am Subject: good friends, good kamma, good luck dhamma_service I just wanted to pass along this heart warming story so we can all be inspired and abide frequently in the brahmavihara of appreciative joy. I asked a dhamma friend where they obtained an mp3 dhamma talk, since I hadn't seen that one before. This friend searched for it online, didn't find it, and let me know that they didn't find it. It's going to be awkward and unwieldy if I keep referring to this dhamma friend anonymously, so for the sake of clarity I'm going to refer to this friend as Chris. I wasn't surprised that the mp3 talk didn't turn up on a web search, since I tried myself before asking Chris. I thought that was the end of the matter, but then a few days later Chris wrote me back that she had contacted the webmaster to find out if they could locate that mp3 and was awaiting their response. After another week, Chris let me know there was no word from the webmaster, so I thought that was the end of the matter. Next thing I know, Chris asked for me for my mailing address so she could copy the CD and mail it to me. This is a friend who lives on the other side of the planet that I've never met or talked to on the phone before. I was very touched that there are people who go so far out of their way to help friends who aren't immediate family or close friends. Truly an inspiring example for me to emulate. May we all have plenty of friends like Chris :) -fk 49354 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, ken H (and Herman) - Thank you for being kind enough to answer my questions and for the sutta excerpt about "the noble truth of the path of practice". But I am not sure why you have given the excerpt that confirms my point (that samma-samadhi is defined by the four rupa-jhanas). KH: I'm not sure that you have understood my answer. My emphasis was not on there being 'countless moments' of concentration: it was on the fact that those moments must be accompanied by insight into the nature of paramattha dhammas. Tep: Yes, I do know that the purpose of your message is to reject the notion that samma-samadhi is based on the four jhanas. But there are several suttas that I can quote to prove my point -- to save me from typing too much, go to AccessToInsight and look under 'jhana' to see a list of suttas that talk about jhanas. You'll be surprised that there are several suttas on jhanas and sama-samadhi and none of them talk about "mundane jhanas" or paramattha dhammas. The Buddha always integrated vipassana bhavana with most of his discourses. For the minority of suttas about jhana alone (not mentioning vipassana), yet the descriptions of the 4 rupa-jhanas are the same as in the Mahasatipatthna Sutta (MN 10, DN 22). KH: > I would like your opinion on this matter. Does it seem strange to you > that supramundane Right Concentration - as found in the Buddha's > unique Eightfold Path - should be the exactly the same as mundane > concentration found in the non-Buddhist, yogi's path? > Tep: Now I see! Maybe your conventional abhidhammika's belief in the "mundane jhanas" has confused you, that's why you add "insight" to that mundane jhanas to make them lokuttara jhanas. The Buddha never defined "mundane jhanas", he only defined sama-samadhi as the four rupa-jhanas, period. Can you find at least one sutta that clearly defines your (imagined ) "mundane jhanas"? I have not seen any sutta that talks about "supramundane Right Concentration" either! Ven. Nyanatiloka's description of sama-samadhi below also shows that samma-samadhi as the 8th path factor is the four jhanas. However, he might have caused confusion for the casual readers who do not carefully study the suttas, because his description of samma-samadhi in the "wider sense" somewhat contradicts to the first one. It is another problem caused by too many invented terminologies. "Right concentration (samma-samadhi), as the last link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), is defined as the 4 meditative absorptions (jhana). In a wider sense, comprising also much weaker states of concentration, it is associated with all karmically wholesome (kusala) consciousness". http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samaadhi.htm KH: >> > Suppose someone asked, "Describe a zebra," and received the > answer, "Paint black stripes on a white horse, and you have a zebra." > He would be wrong to take that advice too literally, and to set up a > zoo with painted horses being passed off as zebras. But, even so, he > would have enough information to know a zebra when he saw one. > > I feel sure it is the same with samma-samadhi and the other Path > factors. They are supramundane and, therefore, they are different > from anything known in mundane consciousness. But, even so, >they can be described by likening them to mundane >realities. If you check the Mayhasatipatthana Sutta, you might agree >that all eight factors - not just samma-samadhi - are described by >likening them to mundane, everyday, phenomena. > Tep: I like to make a note first that there are no jhanas in "mundane, everyday, phenomena". You have to have the other path factors as supporting conditions in order to establish samma-samadhi. Samma- sankappa means renunciation(nekkhamma) and avoiding wrong thoughts. Before you attain the first jhana you have to be "withdrawn from sensuality(kama), withdrawn from unskillful qualities (akusala dhamma)". There is nothing "mundane" here at all. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > (snipped) > > I will attach the relevant extract below. (My apologies for giving > Ven. Thanissaro's poor quality translation.) > > Ken H > > "And what is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the > cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, > right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right > effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. > > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge > with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to > the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice > leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. > > "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from > ill will, to harmlessness: This is called right resolve. > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive > speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called > right speech. > > "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from > stealing, & from illicit sex. This is called right action. > > "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of > the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life > going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. > > "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates > desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that > have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, > unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising > of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the > maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called > right effort. > > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & > mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the > world. > He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of > itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & > mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the > world. > This is called right mindfulness. > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk > — > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure > born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. > With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & > remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation > — > internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in > equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones > declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With > the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier > disappearance > of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: > purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This > is called right concentration. > > "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to > the cessation of stress. 49355 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: How to detect a problem child ksheri3 Good Morning Herman, Interesting how our puppeteers in Hong Kong have placed your message # 49237 after my msg. although what we may have here is a collusionary function. While some of us may be D-lusionary others happen to be col-usionary. Interesting is it not, knot, etc.? Children are a wonderful thing and one can only hope that they eventually see the dhamma and know: "Although Nikkhepa Kanda is very brief compared to Cittuppada Kanda, it explains the terms of the Abhidhamma is such a way that a non- scholar can understand them. Just as a tree can be made known by describing its roots, its trunk, and its fruits, so the meaning of 'Kusala dhamma, meriotorious actions, is made known by describing its roots (which stand for alobha, adosa, amoha),..." Before closing I would like to remind you of the song by the Rolling Stones: "boys will be boys and play with toys so be careful of you beast." "Why gentelmen, you all work for me." toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi all, > > You know you have a problem child on your hands when you give them a > gift and they tell you they must wait for the right conditions to > arise before they can play with it. > > Such a child does not appreciate the receiving of the gift as the > right condition. > > Please receive your gift of the Noble Eight Fold Path today, and play > as you see fit. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 49356 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:53am Subject: Bubbles in the think tank ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Herman - > > You wrote, "Thank you for your honest questions. I appreciate your > method very much.". And I can tell that Herman is a man who usually > has 'somanassa citta' and, because of that, he generally has no > difficulty in being optimistic and looking for positiveness in others. I > think we are similar with respect to optimism, and so I must tell you that I > also like your honest answers and "appreciate your method very > much". colette: ZOIKS, wait a second here. Tep, you start here appreciating Herman's candor then you IDENTIFY a "methodoly". what is the method trying, attempting, to do through the use of madness? <...> See Below: ----------- > > Before going on, I must admit that your language skill is extraordinary > (BTW: how many languages can you understand?) and your $100 - > $50,000 words have sometimes sent me looking for their meanings in a > dictionary. Therefore, whenever my answers show a lack of > understanding, please be a little patient with me. <...> > You quoted LuangPu colette: when others quote passages I take it with a grain of <...>salt, and generally just say "uh, I'll get around to checking the references this or that knowitall says" > saying that only 'sunnata' had touched his heart, > not anything else in the whole Tipitaka. To follow his example, we should also perform a > thorough and careful search of the Tipitaka (regardless of how little value you may think of it) so that we too may be "lucky enough" to get the spark that ignites our firewood of wisdom. colette: here I agree since I know that I believe in the "iggulim" or circular method of the devine. The way it works for me is that my faith or belief of the reality of this "presence" takes me on a "roundabout" way answering my questions, most certainly DIRECTLY, only I get a lot of other things to consider in the process therefore your advice to search the Tipitaka completely is on sound footing. ----------- > > It is interesting to me the way you contrast the "Westies" to > the "Easties" in regard to their application of the Dhamma. So, > according to your story, neither of them can avoid clinging, and they > both end up being as deluded as ever. What a sad story! colette: see I missed a lot here. No person or thing can avoid clinging (see Law of Causation) the clinging aspect has to be tempered before it reaches the "craving" aspect. Who gives a s.... if the individual is in the East or the West, clingling and craving do not differ. ---------- I SHOULD REST HERE SINCE WHAT IS BELOW IS A VOLUME OF AN ENCYCLOPEDIA WE CAN DEBATE, yet at the end this is one thing I'd like to say: ----------- > > You claim that your saddha in the Triple-gem is "unshakable". > Concerning the Dhamma, you say : "But the Dhamma is unwritten and > unwritable". I take it to mean the Dhamma of "your own discovery", and > that you have not yet read the Tipitaka or learned the Dhamma from > an Ariya puggala. So how do you come to appreciate and have > unshakable faith in your own Dhamma? Lastly, I wonder where your > saddha in the Sangha come from. Can you say a few words about that, > if you don't mind? > > It is also interesting that you are not a Buddhist. And yet your saddha in > the Triple-gem is unshakable. It is a riddle to me! > > What is the "terror" that lies beyond the Tipitaka? Is there another kind > of terror that lies before the Tipitaka? > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Herman: Beyond terror lies emptiness. > > Tep: Beyond everything is emptiness. Emptiness is also residing > inside everything. colette: there is no beyond when the emptiness of everything is considered. The above statements by herman and tep are hallucinations or illusions. toodles, colette 49357 From: "amro_88888888" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:15am Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) amro_88888888 Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Amr, > > I'm delighted to welcome a friend of James's from Egypt here. Many of us > highly value his friendship too and his contributions from his deep > reflections on the Buddha's teachings. ---------------------- I am very glad to join that group too ...... And i hope i will learn more about buddhism and find the answers to my questions ... ---------------------- > I hope James will encourage you to study and reflect further on these > teachings. You may also find it helpful to look at some of the 'useful > posts' in the files under 'New to the List and Dhamma' and possibley > 'Abhidhamma - beginners'. James will of course give you his own > suggestions too. ------------------------- Thanks to James i have become a buddist ...... if its not for him I would have never known about buddism ..... I was a muslim but now am a secret buddhist .. thanks to James again ...... I can't be an open buddist becouse due to muslim they have to kill me if i change my religion ...... so am taking a very high risk .... but how James described buddhism made it worth it for me ........ He also tough me meditation which had a very strong effect on my life ..... It has improved me in different ways .... made me more peacefull as am in a very violent country ...... and many other things that meditation have brough up to me that where inside me and i never knew about them ...... I also wish i can develop stronger psychic abilities like James is a very powerful psychic (he has proven it to me in facts) and i wish i can get to his point someday and be able to know all he can know ..... ------------------- > I can see that Dan's comments might sound pretty tough to any newcomer and > I've joked with Dan before that I have to adopt a 'brace' position (like > ducking under the seat)before reading some of his replies to me:). I > assure you that his recent comments, like the one to James, are very mild > compared to the 'old Dan' and that he really only sends them to his > friends and those who he very selectively wishes to discuss the Buddha's > teachings with. In other words, I think it's a kind of compliment to > receive a Dan salvo. (That's how I take them anyway...). ---------------------------------------- About Dan .... i wont get too much into it becouse he apologized so that should solve it between them .... i was just so bothered by it ... becouse belive it or not ... from where i come from (Egypt) ... if he said that to someone ....... he would beat him till he bleeds if not stab him just for saying that .... and i didnt think it was a very buddhist thing to say ..... as i said James tough me to have a better life and to be a better person ...... and i dont belive in hurting peole now ...... but thank u Dan for apologizing .... proud of u buddy :) --------------------------- > As for the question about Buddhaghosa....it is very controvesial. He is > very highly regarded as one of the great authorities or ancient > commentators on the Buddhist texts and so some of us do take his words > very seriously. On the other hand, I quite understand that some people > like James are very sceptical about what they read and find it helpful to > challenge the 'established' point of view. ---------------------- this is a differnt opinion or differnt beliefs that i wont interfere in untill i know enough like u guys ------------------------- > All these challenges and discussions and questions about what really makes > up our lives right now are what we are here to discuss. > > Many thanks to James for introducing you. Please ignore any posts or > topics which are too technical or confusing for now and ask any questions > (the more basic the better) for us to consider. ---------------------- thank u for the advice and for welcoming me in ur group ... and thanks to James for intriducing me too ..... i really apreciate it ..... i will feel free if i have any questions -------------------------- > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s don't worry about your English, grammar or spelling....they're fine! > Btw, we've never kicked anyone out here and don't intend to start doing > so! Like in a large family, we try to get used to each other and learn to > be as tolerant as possible of each other. As Herman said, it's sometimes > difficult when we only communicate by internet to really understand the > intentions of others. -------------------------- I am glad that u found my english okay ..... About the kicking part it was just me upset nothing more .... but by the way ... as u said its a family so it has to go both side .... we tolerate and others do so ..... we can't excuse people for hurting others and be okay with it and say we r just a family ..... that will drive the people who r being hurt crazy and make them hate that group or that family ..... anyway ... thank u for welcoming me and thank u for the sweet post ..... Love, Amr > > --- amro_88888888 wrote: > > first .. hi am a new member ..... Dan u said " even though all I > > intended with my post was to 49358 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object kenhowardau Hi Colette -------------- C: >...intrinsically wholesome nama. one man's wholesomeness is another man's waste. Where has it been written what is and is not wholesome; where is it defined that this or that wholesomeness will always result in this or that conclusion? ect. --------------- As I see it, the Buddha described a world in which there was no 'man,' no 'other man' - no self of any kind. Whereas in our illusory world, one man's wholesomeness may be another man's unwholesomeness, in the Buddha's world, wholesome is just wholesome and unwholesome, just unwholesome. Wholesome deeds always have desirable results, and unwholesome deeds, undesirable results. Ignorancee (moha) might confuse each dhamma with its opposite, but that does not change that dhamma's independent, intrinsic, nature. -------------------------- C: > Short period of time you say? Once a practioner begins study on the dhamma they should realize that the dhamma is everywhere 100% of the time, such as is the case in the Chasidic movement where the followers believe that "god" is in everything (don't bother asking since it'll get so involved with the destruction of the vessels that represented the sephirot, blah blah blah) This paramattha dhamma appears to come & go in a rediculously short period of time but it doesn't, the coming & going are a part of the illusion. ------------------------- We might be talking about two different things. I was saying that individual dhammas come and go: I was not saying that absolute reality - as a whole - comes and goes. I think we agree that there is always only absolute reality - namas and rupas appearing, disappearing and being replaced by other namas and rupas. The other, conventional, reality - known to uninstructed worldlings - never appears or disappears. It is an illusion, existing only in our thoughts. Ken H 49359 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Belief egberdina Hi Sukinder, Tep, Frank, I accept that you sincerely believe all the things you are saying, and I know too that I am not without belief about a good many things. So I won't try and make my beliefs superior to yours, but I will try and understand the nature of belief. > But even if there are beliefs which are `not' built upon any such > understanding but instead on faith in the Buddha or commentaries, is > this any worse than one's reasoning based on `conventional experience' > and/or logical deduction? What if the former has as a basis it being > consistent with other aspects of the Teachings while the latter is `wrong > view', hence inconsistent with the Dhamma? > I think we would agree that the Tipitaka, commentaries and sub-commentaries, and post-canonical sacred works have many words in them. So many words, in fact, that with a little selective reading one could find support for just about any belief. So it is important to know your own mind when reading. Because with a pre-disposed mind, one is only going to look for and find confirmation of that pre-disposition. That is a very circular and futile exercise, isn't it, merely amplifying a mind to see things a particular way? > And what is experience as we conventionally understand and seek to > have? Does tasting mango, smelling ammonia, or `seeing devas' > eradicate doubt? Are we happy to only place one position about > existence/non existence against one another? I don't think the Buddha's > teachings are directed towards this kind of `seeing and understanding' > things. In fact much of our `questionings' may seem to us like `wise > consideration' but actually be a manifestation of doubt, a real hindrance > to the path!! This leads me to my villager/money lender example and > your comment below. There is a purpose in comparing/contrasting this against that, and arriving at scholarly wisdom. "My diversional therapy to avoid the realisation of the First Noble Truth" is a chapter in progress for "My Life"'s all around the globe. > > Herman: > I am happy to accept, for myself, that nothing at all can be said > about the persistence or lack of persistence of rupas, given that > namas are the lowest common denominator in the equation. > > Sukinder: > I think this is a logical deduction you make based on what you > understand as being the function and characteristic of citta. The above hit me in a flash, out of the blue, actually. I don't give much creedence to flashes out of the blue, because the mind is the forerunner of all delusions. But I have not been able to falsify the statement, so it appears to have something going for it. The following is another one which hit me out of nowhere. Again I test it. Perhaps you can help? I'd be very happy to see it torn to shreds on a sound basis so it can be discarded. -The mind cannot know it's absence. The perceived unbroken continuity of consciousness is a self-serving mental fabrication. I think you > forget to make a distinction between this and the accompanying > cetasikas. While citta experiences just the present `object', sanna marks > it. So when the citta is accompanied by panna, this `understands' in a > way that citta doesn't and neither does it simply mark. The > understanding happens in a way that *more* about realities is known. > So just as a money lender experiencing the very same coins as the > villager and the boy, his `knowing' of it however goes `beyond' that > which is known by citta and sanna. The mind is the forerunner of all delusion and all suffering. Once this is realised, it is put to one side and given no credence. Does the citta-vitthi theory allow for absence of the mind? No. It turns Nibbana into an object to be known by, you guessed it, the mind. Can you see a hint of self-serving there? Frank's quote is perfect. Luang Pu succinctly summarized: "No matter how much you think, you won't know. Only when you stop thinking will you know. But still, you have to depend on thinking so as to know." > > Your position above may seem like a reasonable one to take since there > is no evidence. But what if it is conditioned by doubt? I rather trust the > Abhidhamma, making a distinction of course, the level of this > acceptance. ;-) > > I know I have not stated anything new to you, but I wanted to express > myself. :-) > == Thank you for expressing yourself. It is good to discuss with an open mind. == > I meant to say more, but must rush home now. I've got bad news for you, you don't have to do anything :-) !! And that can be very scary, terrifying even. Kind Regards Herman > > Metta, > > Sukinder > 49360 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] undesirable object egberdina Hi Ken and Colette, > > We might be talking about two different things. I was saying that > individual dhammas come and go: I was not saying that absolute > reality - as a whole - comes and goes. == It would have been better if you had said it. == I think we agree that there is > always only absolute reality - namas and rupas appearing, > disappearing and being replaced by other namas and rupas. == Does Nibbana scare you :-) ? == The other, > conventional, reality - known to uninstructed worldlings - never > appears or disappears. It is an illusion, existing only in our > thoughts. == The unbroken mindstream is an illusion, much theorised about by uninstructed wordlings (sic). Nibbana as an element is a croc(odile) :-) toodle-loo Herman 49361 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: sila. philofillet Hi Nina, and all > Words are expressed depending on the > situation of this or that person who asked a question. Sometimes you may > find it useful for you personally, sometimes you may not find yourself in > the answer. There cannot be a specific pattern according to which Phil, > Herman, Nina lead their lives. We have different accumulated tendencies, we > have to deal with our own situations of life, our own character problems, we > are responsible ourselves for the way we act, good or bad. And not that we each have our own set of rigidly patterned accumualtions that make us behave in a predictable way. Each moment there are different accumulations (though with tendencies), different degrees of understanding. So it is not so much how the teaching is expressed but understanding that our understanding is conditioned to arise in different ways, to different degrees, at different moments. I always find it interesting that I respond differently at different times when I hear Acharn Sujin telling the man whose mother is dying that panna is what matters. Sometimes it sounds cold and unhelpful, at other times it sounds very refreshing and inspires and encourages me. Fortunately, usually the latter. >> > But it seems to me that even if there is self involved, as it will > > be inevitably until we are sotapanna, there can still be value in > > becoming aware, even through just thinking about it, of the anger > > arising. Perhaps it can save us from striking someone, or shouting. > > In that case, isn't avoiding akusala kamma patha of value even if > > there is wrong view involved? > ------ > N: Yes, everyone agrees that it is valuable. And it is also a rare chance > just to be reminded how much we cling to 'my kusala'. Yes, so there is a kind of abstaining from unwholesome deed, but not to the degree that is right action, which must be accompanied by panna. And then we can be aware that self-interest, self-view is involved in the abstaining. I know Acharn Sujin didn't mean to say that we shouldn't abstain from akusala if there is self involved. Of course not. But she is always concerned that people will cling to instructions, bringing even more lobha into it, so she abstains from giving instructions. No should, and no predictions using "will" - I will be addressing that in my next post, to Tep. > > > To tell the truth, I don't know what it means to directly > > understand the characteristics of the anger to any degree deeper > > than this feeling it arising it and checking it. > ------ > N: Only after the first stage of tender insight , knowing the difference > between nama and rupa, shall we more clearly understand anger as nama. But > we gradually we can learn to be aware of whatever dhamma appears without > naming it. I've come to understand, at moments why it is important and harder than we think to know nama from rupa. All the references to the citta being dark, being that which only experiences, have me thinking and starting to understand now and then. Not pressing on it. I've wondered why you use "tender" insight. Becaue it is just being born, is fragile, easy to be swept away in the sea of concepts? I'll leave it at that, Nina. Have saved the rest to reflect on later. Phil 49362 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you for your post. Vicki is so pleased to receive so many good wishes. I joke with her that she gets more support from the Buddhists than from the Catholics. She knows I'm only joking. On 26/08/05, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > thank you for answering me. > op 26-08-2005 00:54 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > Faith for the Christian is "the substance of > > things hoped for, the sight of things unseen". Without recourse to > > reality anything at all can be the object of faith. When reality > > injects some doubt into what is believed, the antidote for many is to > > just have more faith. Without satipatthana to confirm anicca, anatta > > and dukkha, again and again and again, Buddhism would be quite empty > > of substance. And of course nibbana is the proof of the pudding. But > > not yet. > ------- > N: In other words, faith or confidence has to be balanced with > understanding. I remember my discussion with Tep. > Indeed, if there is only faith, there can be agreat deal of superstition, > cultivation of persons, too much devotion, enthusiasm. The head has to be > kept cool. Balance is important. > -------- > H quotes: N: The only way: > >> development of direct understanding of any dhamma appearing through the > >> senses and the mind-door. Don't you agree? > ------- > H: To be honest, I do not really know whether I know what direct > > understanding is. When is something direct understanding, and when is > > it direct deception? The mind, as self-measuring ruler, is the > > forerunner of all illusions :-) > ------- > N: Dhammapada The Twin verses 1 and 2: Citta is forerunner of all evil > condiitons and of all good conditions. > Paññaa is needed to find out. > I understand what you say about direct understanding. It is the same in the > case of direct awareness. How does one know? When it actually arises. > I understand that you do not find this a satisfying anwer, because it is not > what is considered logical by most people. == You understand me well. But it goes a little bit further for me than just logic. I have an understanding which doesn't originate from logic, but I do use logic to see if it makes sense. I have written before about not understanding a/kusala. I do not want to understand it either, you see. Because I understand that anyone that lives in the world of a/kusala is damned. Damned by their own judgments of what is wholesome and not. Once the mind makes a judgment of "this is good, that is bad" that is how the world, whether internal or external must appear from then on. We do inherit our own judgments, all day long. The ending of akusala is not in perfecting kusala, it is in the ending of judgment. > We have to consider the right conditions for paññaa: patiently listening and > considering what one hears for oneself. Nobody else can develop > understanding for you. Very well said. Eventually it dawns that the mind condemns to suffering. How easy to let go of it when that is understood. Kind Regards Herman > And to finish my letter to you: all good wishes also for Vicky, a speedy > recovery. > Nina. > > > 49363 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious philofillet Hi Tep Thanks, I did overlook this when I posted to Nina about the passage Frank posted. You asked me what I think of this, and what I think "practice" is, since I said "first understand and then practice will arise" or words to that effect. First of all, at this point in my understanding (it will change) I wonder why "practice" is necessary. It seems to be included in bhavana. If there is mental development, why is it necessary to have the idea of practice. If there is no mental development, what good will "practice" do? I know we disagree on this point. You would say that the intentional practice, following a teacher's instructions, such as those below, will lead to the bhavana. In my opinion, if there is not already understanding, following instructions from a teacher will just condition more lobha and unwholesome belief in rites and rituals (I forget the Pali) which I called "technique-ism." But that is because I am aware of how much lobha is arising through me, so much clinging to results, so much desire to be a wise man, liberated from suffering. So very much. That is not true for everyone. I shouldn't assume it is. But I also know I'm not the only one. You would say that this could be chanda, wholesome chanda, and I'm sure it is at times. But I know my lustful, hungering, greedy tendencies and I know they apply to Dhamma as well. So I will be careful about following instructions from teachers, because it will be counter-productive. Turning to the teaching from Luang Po (sorry if I mispelled that) > "Even if the heart is not calm, one should not let it go out too far. One > should use mindfulness, looking within the body to see impermanence, > dukkha and no-self and the repulsiveness of the body. There is no > meaning to this body, no core. When the heart sees this clearly it will > become tired of these states of impermanence, dukkha and no-self. > Weariness of the vanities of the world, disinterest and a lessening of > desire will develop. This practice of internal mindfulness can also cut the > grasping after the Khandhas (body-mind personality)." > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ For people who have understanding already, this will be a good reminder about how satipatthana is happening. But in a sense, the teaching will be unnecessary because the understanding will reveal this to them without needing Luang Po. But for those without understanding (such as me) and a lot of desire for results (such as me) this would be a counterproductive teaching because it is like a bird trying to teach a fish how to fly. If the fish had wings to fly (panna) the fish would fly, but if the fish doesn't have the wings, he will just beat his fins (?) and think that he is developing wings, but in fact is only making his fins stronger and becoming more like a fish, not more like a bird. I guess that's not fair, because fish have no potential to become birds. Maybe a jaguar teaching a hedgehgog how to run fast would be a better metaphor. I'm not a pessimist about developing satipatthana, Tep. Just (in my opinion) a realist. The above teaching requires a great degree of understanding to already be in place, in my opinion. Otherwise it is just a recipe for more lobha. And I also wondered why not turn directly to suttas for teaching in this matter. There are so many suttas in samyutta nikaya that deal with this development of understanding. I think it's interesting that in the discourses we don't find promises using "will" in the way it is used above. (eg "when the heart sees this it will grow tired of....") Instead, the Buddha (and his translator) uses the present tense, the stative, which is used to described states, habitual actions. For example, the phrase that is found in several suttas in SN "Seeing thus, bkhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling etc. Through dispassion, his mind is liberated etc...." So what we have here is more like a description of what arises through a monk (an ariyan, at that) with understanding rather than a prediction of the way understanding will arise for a person who doesn't have understanding to begin with. I think the latter is attractive for us, of course, but I think the former is more helpful in the long run. We have such a long way to go. I think understanding how far we are from the goal is in itself a very helpful kind of understanding, a necessary understanding. I'm sure there are also suttas more in line with the teaching you shared above. Phil p.s I don't mean to dis your respected teacher. I just responded according to my own level of understanding, which is so deeply rooted in ignorance and greed. 49364 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child philofillet Hi Nina and all H > > I'm pretty sure for myself that an agitated mind sees nothing very > > clearly. The foundation for understanding is a tranquil mind. But, > > hey, I accept what works for me doesn't necessarily apply > elsewhere. Ph > But the agitation is not the mind - the mind is the citta. The > agitation is cetasika. I guess you don't like cetasika, so you could > say that the agitation is sankhara khanda, which is the same thing. > So this agitation can be an object of understanding. It's not at the > center of everything, controlling everything. It's understood, > potentially. And that moment of understanding is kusala, and there > is calm at that moment, kusala calm. I guess this is like the kusala > eye in the middle of the akusala storm or something. Does what I wrote to Herman hear sound correct? When our mind is agitated, is the agitation a cetasika? Dosa, or doubt or restlessness or soemthing? There is nothing agitated about the citta of seeing hearing smelling tasting touching thinking itself is there? Thanks in advance. Phil 49365 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Should we throw away the Tipitaka, Herman? Emptiness egberdina Hi Tep, Thank you for your kind words. > It is interesting to me the way you contrast the "Westies" to > the "Easties" in regard to their application of the Dhamma. So, > according to your story, neither of them can avoid clinging, and they > both end up being as deluded as ever. What a sad story! > I was careful to use the words "many" and "some", not everyone will cling. Both the East and the West have produced great reformers, as they have produced ultra-conservatives (clingers). > You claim that your saddha in the Triple-gem is "unshakable". > Concerning the Dhamma, you say : "But the Dhamma is unwritten and > unwritable". I take it to mean the Dhamma of "your own discovery", and > that you have not yet read the Tipitaka or learned the Dhamma from > an Ariya puggala. So how do you come to appreciate and have > unshakable faith in your own Dhamma? Lastly, I wonder where your > saddha in the Sangha come from. Can you say a few words about that, > if you don't mind? The Dhamma is what is real. Is doesn't have copyright on it. It doesn't belong to anyone. Anyone with a mind to see it can come to do so. The notion that you need to have THE RIGHT TEACHING is common to all faiths, and each faith claims to own it, of course. But you *do not* need to have faith in what is real. What is real is just... , well, it just is. You *do* need faith to have any belief whatsoever, though. A member of the Sangha is anyone who can show you you are clinging, holding onto a belief. They do not set you free, you do that by letting go. Noone else can do that for you. If you are selective about who or what you will allow to be your teacher, you are carefully protecting what you fully intend to keep clinging to. For your sake and theirs, just smile when anyone tells you "This is the only way". > > It is also interesting that you are not a Buddhist. And yet your saddha in > the Triple-gem is unshakable. It is a riddle to me! Perhaps you are taking Buddha, Sangha and Dhamma very literally. If you do then you are in serious trouble. Because the Buddha is dead and all the Sangha can do is to squable over how to divide his bones and ashes for the greatest good. A bit scary, don't you think? > > What is the "terror" that lies beyond the Tipitaka? Is there another kind > of terror that lies before the Tipitaka? > ------------------------------------------------------ > I do not know if everyone must experience terror on sensing emptiness. I did. But that passes too. These words ring true in my ears. .. there is only this that disturbs the emptiness: that is, the six sense-realms bound to this body reacting to life. > Herman: Beyond terror lies emptiness. > > Tep: Beyond everything is emptiness. Emptiness is also residing > inside everything. > Sounds good to me, Tep. Thank you and Kind Regards Herman > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > 49366 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] good friends, good kamma, good luck upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - In a message dated 8/27/05 1:26:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: I just wanted to pass along this heart warming story so we can all be inspired and abide frequently in the brahmavihara of appreciative joy. I asked a dhamma friend where they obtained an mp3 dhamma talk, since I hadn't seen that one before. This friend searched for it online, didn't find it, and let me know that they didn't find it. It's going to be awkward and unwieldy if I keep referring to this dhamma friend anonymously, so for the sake of clarity I'm going to refer to this friend as Chris. I wasn't surprised that the mp3 talk didn't turn up on a web search, since I tried myself before asking Chris. I thought that was the end of the matter, but then a few days later Chris wrote me back that she had contacted the webmaster to find out if they could locate that mp3 and was awaiting their response. After another week, Chris let me know there was no word from the webmaster, so I thought that was the end of the matter. Next thing I know, Chris asked for me for my mailing address so she could copy the CD and mail it to me. This is a friend who lives on the other side of the planet that I've never met or talked to on the phone before. I was very touched that there are people who go so far out of their way to help friends who aren't immediate family or close friends. Truly an inspiring example for me to emulate. May we all have plenty of friends like Chris :) -fk ========================== Very nice, Frank! (As is this woman whom we can call [LOL] "Chris" very nice!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49367 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child egberdina Hi Phil, > > But the agitation is not the mind - the mind is the citta. The > agitation is cetasika. I guess you don't like cetasika, so you could > say that the agitation is sankhara khanda, which is the same thing. > So this agitation can be an object of understanding. It's not at the > center of everything, controlling everything. It's understood, > potentially. And that moment of understanding is kusala, and there > is calm at that moment, kusala calm. I guess this is like the kusala > eye in the middle of the akusala storm or something. > I think you hit the nail on the head further down the post. Exactly! That's why it's so wonderfully liberating (even at the > intellectual level, as I never tire of adding) to understand that > Phil doesn't exist. And it's so obvious to me that he doesn't. I > mean, even in science he's just atoms and whatever. In Dhamma he's > just khandas, or dhatus, or ayatanas, or citta, cetasika and rupa or > whatever other way the Buddha found to teach about it. There is > nothing but nama and rupa, the things we spend our precious lives > fretting about don't actually exist. I find this hugely liberating. > But it could just be an escape mechanism or something. > Especially the last line. I see Abhidhamma (the book) as diversional therapy par excellence. The Buddha teaches suffering and the end of suffering through the extinction of the bullshit mind. The Abhidhamma then sets out to gather and probe and disect and study and catalogue all the bullshit the mind produces. Further proof, no doubt, that in any bullshit there is only bullshit. There is conventional bullshit and absolute bullshit. But it is only diversion to flip-flop between conventional bullshit and absolute bullshit. What actual liberation is there in climbing out of the sewerage pit, to have a subtle bullshit sandwich and then dive back in again (no splashing, please :-) .? Kind Regards Herman 49368 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:26pm Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Herman, I'd have to say your comparison of Buddhagosa to St Paul sounds plain nuts! Buddhagosa was a systematizer and hair-splitter and created detailed encyclopedic summaries of ancient doctrines under the protection of a well-established tradition -- much more parallel to Thomas Aquinas' work than to Paul's. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Dan and James, > > The following is of no soteriological value whatsoever. It is an > intellectual exercise. I am not going to participate because I have > better things to do with my time, but it could be an interesting and > fun activity to do a compare / contrast of the Suttas with the opus of > Buddhagosa. > > Institutional Buddhism and Buddhagosa are inseparable, and the > latter's influence on the former is inestimable. I see distinct > similarities between St Paul's influence on Christianity and > Buddhagosa's influence on Buddhism. > > It is my personal view only, but I see both men as empire/temple > builders. Which is a total misunderstanding and misappropriation of > the Teachings of Jesus and Gautama. Jesus and Gautama have much in > common, by the way. But that's another story. > > Be good now, you hear :-) > > > Herman > > > > > On 26/08/05, Dan D. wrote: > > Hi James, > > Despite the sharp tone of your note, it really is good to hear from > > you. I hope everything is going well for you in Egypt. > > > > Sorry for my smart-aleky post. That was obviously the wrong tone to > > strike with you. > > > > I do think my point was a good one, though, and I would love to hear > > your appropriate response. > > > > You mentioned that you thought that Vism was "a work of ego" that was > > written "to impress". I read so few ad hominem attacks among posts at > > dsg and almost never do I see such blatant, dismissive, and unfair > > personal attacks. Wouldn't it be better to stick to what he wrote > > than to dismiss it by impugning his motives (which you can't possibly > > know anything about)? > > > > Metta, > > > > Dan > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > > wrote: > > > Hi Dan D. > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > > wrote: > > > > Great to hear from you, Herman! I say so, even though all I > > intended > > > > with my post was to gently slam James for a rather ridiculous > > > > presumption to know why Buddhagosa wrote Vism > > > > > > "gently slam" is an oxymoron. If you ever intend to 'slam' me it > > will > > > never be 'gentle'. It will also always be inappropriate. I wish > > you > > > had just been straightforward in your previous post and I could > > have > > > responded appropriately. No one likes a smart-alek. > > > > > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > > > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > > > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > > > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and > > come > > > back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. > > > > > > Metta, > > > James > > > ps. A friend here in Cairo, a new member of this group, wrote a > > post > > > to you also but I guess it was censored. He was much more upset by > > > your 'gentle slamming' than I was. > > 49369 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:42pm Subject: Re: dhamma dictionary (Thai) jjnbdal Dear Khun Tep: The files require Acrobat Reader. The behavior you described is probably because your acrobat reader has not been configured to work with your browser. It's best to download them and view it off-line. Simply right click on the links and choose "Save As". Just in case, you can find a copy of Acrobat Reader at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html Good luck, jaran --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Khun Jaran - > > I was glad to see the several links you had introduced. But when I > clicked on the links 'Chapter 1' and 'Chapter 2', the pages could not be > > opened ( blank pages resulted). Could you please give me a clue as > to what's wrong and how to correct it? > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > =========== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai-nhuknan > wrote: > > Dear All: > > > > I just found a dhamma dictionaries in the following link. The word > > definition is also shown in English. Unfortunately, the alphabetical > order > > is based on Thai language. Still English words are searchable via > search > > function in acrobatreader. > > > > Best Regards, > > jaran > > > > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/thai-dict.html > > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma0.pdf > > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma1.pdf > > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma2.pdf > > http://www.tipitaka.org/thai/Dhamma3.pdf 49370 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Re: Bubbles in the think tank buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette (and Herman) - Welcome to the emptiness forum that will soon be empty. >colette: there is no beyond when the emptiness of everything is >considered. The above statements by herman and tep are >hallucinations or illusions. Tep: Beyond the edge of the universe (the "everything" that consists of a vast amount of emptiness) is again emptiness. The emptiness of self is another debatable issue. Until there is a clear knowledge, I admit that it is illusive because of the lack of knowledge. -------------------------------------------- >Colette: No person or thing can avoid clinging (see Law of Causation) >the clinging aspect has to be tempered before it reaches >the "craving" aspect. Tep: Isn't the reverse of that is correct, i.e. carving conditions clinging? If no person could abandon clinging then the Buddha's Teachings would be in vain. ------------------------ >colette: ZOIKS, wait a second here. Tep, you start here appreciating >Herman's candor then you IDENTIFY a "methodoly". what is the >method trying, attempting, to do through the use of madness? <...> See Below: Tep: It is true that I appreciate Herman's candor. But I do not follow the rest of what you wrote above (even after reading the "below"). Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Herman - > > > > You wrote, "Thank you for your honest questions. I appreciate your > > method very much.". And I can tell that Herman is a man who usually has 'somanassa citta' and, because of that, he generally has no difficulty in being optimistic and looking for positiveness in > others. I think we are similar with respect to optimism, and so I must tell you that I also like your honest answers and "appreciate your method very much". > > colette: ZOIKS, wait a second here. Tep, you start here appreciating > Herman's candor then you IDENTIFY a "methodoly". what is the method trying, attempting, to do through the use of madness? <...> See Below: > ----------- > > > > > Before going on, I must admit that your language skill is > extraordinary > > (BTW: how many languages can you understand?) and your $100 - > > $50,000 words have sometimes sent me looking for their meanings in a dictionary. Therefore, whenever my answers show a lack of > > understanding, please be a little patient with me. > > <...> > > You quoted LuangPu > > colette: when others quote passages I take it with a grain of <...>salt, and generally just say "uh, I'll get around to checking > the references this or that knowitall says" > > > saying that only 'sunnata' had touched his heart, > > not anything else in the whole Tipitaka. > > To follow his example, we should also perform a > > thorough and careful search of the Tipitaka (regardless of how > little value you may think of it) so that we too may be "lucky > enough" to get the spark that ignites our firewood of wisdom. > > colette: here I agree since I know that I believe in the "iggulim" or > circular method of the devine. The way it works for me is that my > faith or belief of the reality of this "presence" takes me on > a "roundabout" way answering my questions, most certainly DIRECTLY, > only I get a lot of other things to consider in the process therefore > your advice to search the Tipitaka completely is on sound footing. > ----------- 49371 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Re: dhamma dictionary (Thai) buddhistmedi... Dear Khun Jara - Thank you very much for the useful information and the Web link. Take care, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Dear Khun Tep: > > The files require Acrobat Reader. The behavior you described is probably because your acrobat reader has not been configured to work with your browser. It's best to download them and view it off-line. Simply right click on the links and choose "Save As". > > Just in case, you can find a copy of Acrobat Reader at > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html > > Good luck, > jaran 49372 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and all) - I am glad to read your sincere message. It was written clearly, so clear that my past misunderstandings on a number of issues, which you again addressed in this (long) message, are washed away. Please give me time to reread your important points and formulate some careful answers (when I have more time). This is the first time, I think, that I have come closest to understand your Paramattha dhamma perspective. It is encouraging and I hope to be able to learn useful ideas from you in the upcoming discussion between us. Of course, I will be gald if anyone should want to join us. P.S. 'Luangpu' is an amiable nickname for a highly respectable Thai monk who is old enough to be our grandfather. It may also be written as 'Luang Pu'. 'Luang Po' is young enough to be a son of Luangpu, and old enough to be our dad. [ 'Po' = dad.] Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Thanks, I did overlook this when I posted to Nina about the > passage Frank posted. You asked me what I think of this, and what I > think "practice" is, since I said "first understand and then > practice will arise" or words to that effect. > > First of all, at this point in my understanding (it will change) > I wonder why "practice" is necessary. It seems to be included in > bhavana. If there is mental development, why is it necessary to have > the idea of practice. If there is no mental development, what good > will "practice" do? I know we disagree on this point. You would say > that the intentional practice, following a teacher's instructions, > such as those below, will lead to the bhavana. In my opinion, if > there is not already understanding, following instructions from a > teacher will just condition more lobha and unwholesome belief in > rites and rituals (I forget the Pali) which I called "technique-ism." > > But that is because I am aware of how much lobha is arising > through me, so much clinging to results, so much desire to be a wise > man, liberated from suffering. So very much. That is not true for > everyone. I shouldn't assume it is. But I also know I'm not the only > one. > You would say that this could be chanda, wholesome chanda, and I'm sure it is at times. But I know my lustful, hungering, greedy > tendencies and I know they apply to Dhamma as well. So I will be > careful about following instructions from teachers, because it will > be counter-productive. > > Turning to the teaching from Luang Po (sorry if I mispelled that) > > > "Even if the heart is not calm, one should not let it go out too > far. One > > should use mindfulness, looking within the body to see > impermanence, > > dukkha and no-self and the repulsiveness of the body. There is no > > meaning to this body, no core. When the heart sees this clearly it > will > > become tired of these states of impermanence, dukkha and no-self. > > Weariness of the vanities of the world, disinterest and a > lessening of > > desire will develop. This practice of internal mindfulness can > also cut the > > grasping after the Khandhas (body-mind personality)." > > http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/85/115/ > > > For people who have understanding already, this will be a good > reminder about how satipatthana is happening. But in a sense, the > teaching will be unnecessary because the understanding will reveal > this to them without needing Luang Po. But for those without > understanding (such as me) and a lot of desire for results (such as > me) this would be a counterproductive teaching because it is like a > bird trying to teach a fish how to fly. If the fish had wings to fly > (panna) the fish would fly, but if the fish doesn't have the wings, > he will just beat his fins (?) and think that he is developing > wings, but in fact is only making his fins stronger and becoming > more like a fish, not more like a bird. I guess that's not fair, > because fish have no potential to become birds. Maybe a jaguar > teaching a hedgehgog how to run fast would be a better metaphor. > > I'm not a pessimist about developing satipatthana, Tep. Just (in > my opinion) a realist. The above teaching requires a great degree of > understanding to already be in place, in my opinion. Otherwise it is > just a recipe for more lobha. > > And I also wondered why not turn directly to suttas for teaching > in this matter. There are so many suttas in samyutta nikaya that > deal with this development of understanding. I think it's > interesting that in the discourses we don't find promises > using "will" in the way it is used above. (eg "when the heart sees > this it will grow tired of....") > Instead, the Buddha (and his translator) uses the present tense, > the stative, which is used to described states, habitual actions. > For example, the phrase that is found in several suttas in > SN "Seeing thus, bkhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple > experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling etc. > Through dispassion, his mind is liberated etc...." > > So what we have here is more like a description of what arises > through a monk (an ariyan, at that) with understanding rather than a > prediction of the way understanding will arise for a person who > doesn't have understanding to begin with. I think the latter is > attractive for us, of course, but I think the former is more helpful > in the long run. We have such a long way to go. I think > understanding how far we are from the goal is in itself a very > helpful kind of understanding, a necessary understanding. > > I'm sure there are also suttas more in line with the teaching you > shared above. > > > Phil > > p.s I don't mean to dis your respected teacher. I just responded > according to my own level of understanding, which is so deeply > rooted in ignorance and greed. 49373 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, ------------ M: > The Buddha gave public discourses sometimes. While people may have been aware that he gave teachings deep in meaning this did not mean that everyone understood what he meant. There is one recorded instance when he actually gives up trying to explain anatta to a someone. The buddha said some people would get up and walk away in the middle of the discourse. Only a few would have had the conditions to penetrate into the meaning. There are recorded instances of monks developing wrong views. Some even commiting suicide based on teachings taken the wrong way, while the buddha was living in the local area. The journey from the conventional to the absolute is a gradual one after all. I think it is a bit idealistic to expect things to be very different back then. Puthajjanas are just that, living conventional lives. ------------------ I don't disagree with any of that. My point was that, regardless of whether they understood deeply of superficially, people knew that the Buddha's conventional-sounding words contained much more than conventional meaning. Today that is not the case, and Buddhism is widely considered as just another course in meditation. ------------------------------ M: > To hear him praise keeping precepts for example is very simple isnt it? Maybe there are varing depths of understanding of this, But to someone just starting off in the practice it is a way of avoiding akusala. ------------------------------ I don't think the Dhamma is ever "very simple." Some people can understand it only superficially, but that does not mean that the Dhamma itself can be superficial. Ignorant people may think that - provided there is no harming - precepts can be kept when there is wrong view or attachment or conceit etc. But that won't help them to keep the precepts. Precepts are kept by conditioned dhammas - i.e., when there is kusala citta with virati-cetasika. -------------- <. . .> H: > Can I ask what you think would be the difference in a jhana with and without right understanding is (having read your reply to Tep)? The same as drinking tea without and with right understanding? :) Not trying to be flippant, but trying to tease out the importance of right understanding. ----------------- In one way there is a huge difference, but in another way there is only a slight difference. Kusala concentration is intrinsically different from akusala concentration, mundane right concentration is intrinsically different from ordinary kusala concentration, and supramundane right concentration is intrinsically different from mundane right concentration. That is one way of looking at it, but there is also the fact that samadhi is samadhi, regardless of the other namas that accompany it. Dan has written some excellent posts on 'effort' (viriya) pointing out that the description of effort when it accompanies kusala citta is virtually identical to the description of effort when it accompanies akusala citta. ------------------------- KH: > > But remember, those factors are only cetasikas - arising > with and dependent upon their forerunner, right understanding. <. . .> ..... M: >Hmm.. what are the causes of right understanding? Attending to the dhamma, thinking about the dhamma ...the cause of that ..hearing reading the dhamma ..approaching the dhamma ...kalyanamitta ...being born ..the cause of that ..avijja. To pick on Right understanding as the 'forerunner' is conceptual and I think biased :) . -------------------- I was referring to absolute reality (in which there are only namas and rupas arising at one of the six doorways). In a paramattha moment of vipassana, right understanding is the forerunner. Even though all path factors arise together, right understanding is the cause of the others to arise. Then, having arisen, they all support each other. Not appreciating right understanding as forerunner, some people sit on a cushion or focus on walking (etc.) in order to meditate. They think right effort or right concentration comes first. But real (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise. ------------------------------- M: > Arising and passing away of dhammas is all there is. But the question is not that is it? What arises and passes away in an arahath's mind as opposed to yours and mine (im assuming youre not an arahath :) )? The defilements like craving aversion dont arise. Why is that? In what ways are defilements reduced and finally gotten rid of? ------------------------------- Moments of mundane vipassana (satipatthana) weaken the defilements, whereas moments of supramundane vipassana (magga-citta) finally eradicate them. A sotapanna is, for example, completely incapable of wrong view. -------------------- M: > There is no doing in an absolute sense. But it is there in a conventional sense. --------------------- Yes, but the conventional sense is not real. The term 'conventional reality' is a misnomer - because it refers to a "reality" that is not a reality but an illusion. When, for example, we think we are chopping wood with an axe, there is the illusion of doing. In reality, there are only moments of nama a rupa. In some of those moments there will be concepts of wood chopping (ideas of doing), but in reality there is no doing apart from dhammas - arising, performing their functions and falling away. ----------------------------------- M: > There is no sila in an absolute sense, but it is there in a conventional sense ------------------------------------ Sila is there in the absolute sense too. Every kusala citta can be classified as either dana, sila or bhavana - depending on its co- arising cetasikas. The point is; there is no doer of the sila. ------------------------------------------------------- KH:> > Perhaps your meaning was, 'the > eradication of defilements depends on more than just knowledge: it > depends on insight.' ......... M: > How do you differentiate knowledge from insight? (What I meant was your earlier meaning by the way). -------------------------------------------------------- I think it would have been a perfectly valid differentiation if by 'knowledge' you had meant intellectual understanding of the Dhamma, and if by 'insight' you had meant 1, putting that intellectual understanding into practice (mundane insight) and 2, full penetration of the Dhamma (supramundane insight) Ken H 49374 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 0:09am Subject: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion) jonoabb Hi Tep (and All) I think my laptop is finally back in good working order, after another trip to the service department (in Hong Kong this time) and the replacement of the system board yet again, along with miscellaneous other adjustments. My first job is to send out replies to some outstanding posts from before our trip, partly to address one or two particular issues and partly because I had already started on replies and don't want to waste the work done ;-)) Tep, the issue of 'mundane jhana' is one that you have just brought up again in your thread with KenH, so I am starting with this post of yours from our earlier series. Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon : > >I shall be glad if you may point out for me a few suttas in which the >Buddha taught his monks the "mundane jhana" that did not lead to >enlightenment as the goal. > And in a later post to Evan you say: "However, there is no mentioning about a "mundane" jhana in this sutta -- or in any of the suttas I have studied. My suspicion has been that the term "mundane" was invented by a commentator. That's why I asked Jon to help me reject/confirm my suspicion." I gather from this that what you are questioning is the use of the term 'mundane', not only in the context of mundane jhana but in any context whatsoever. So let us discuss terminology first. 'Mundane' is a translation of the Pali word 'lokiya' ('worldly'). It simply refers to anything that is not 'supramundane' (Pali: 'lokuttara'), where 'supramundane' refers to enlightenment moments, specifically the actual path (magga) and fruition (phala) consciousnesses, or anything pertaining to enlightenment. 'Ariya' (noble, as in Noble Eightfold Path) is a term used in the suttas that has a similar meaning to 'lokuttara' (although not exactly the same). Now it seems to me that as long as we agree that the enlightenment (supramundane path and fruition) moments are unique, it doesn't matter a whole lot what terms we use to distinguish these from other, non-supramundane, moments. If the distinction is a valid and useful one, and it helps our understanding to use certain terms to express that distinction, then I don't see any particular problem. The reason we don't just use 'path' and 'non-path' is that 'path' can refer to pre-enlightenment moments as well as actual moments of enlightenment, that is to say, to the moments that constitute the development towards supramundane path moments. I would be interested to have your comments on what I have said so far. Jon 49375 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >I agree with Herman here. It is often said that one of the stages of >vipassana insight is "knowing the difference between nama and rupa" >but I believe that this comes from the commentaries and not from the >suttas. The suttas, if memory serves, describe how one is supposed to >see consciousness (nama) immersed in the body (rupa) like one would >see a thread strung through a clear gem. This metaphor would involve > seeing the relationship between nama and rupa and seeing their >differences. Not quite the same idea that Jon suggests, in my >opinion. If there are suttas which state that one should know nama as >separate from rupa and vice versa, I would be interested to hear of them. > A good question. I cannot off-hand say if there are suttas which state that the distinction between nama and rupa is to be known, but the suttas that deal with khandhas make it clear that each of the khandhas is to be known as it is, that is, rupa khandha as rupa khandha, different from the other 4 khandhas. Then of course there are suttas which make it clear that seeing consciousness is to be known as seeing consciousness, visible object as visible object, feeling as feeling, and so on. I think there is plenty of support in the suttas for the view that (individual) dhammas are to be seen (a) as dhammas, and (b) as particular kinds of dhammas, and (c) as exhibiting certain characteristics. So I do not see any problem with the idea of the difference between namas and rupas as being one of the stages of insight knowledge. Jon 49376 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:29am Subject: NOT The Four Noble Truths ... ? christine_fo... Hello all, I would like to hear anyone's understanding/opinion of this thread about the Four Noble Truths not being about Truths for the manyfolk to understand - this being merely a translation error - but correctly being "Four Realities Evident to the Noble Ones" http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=17791 metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49377 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard There is one comment in particular in your post that I would like to address. You say, in the context of your description of consciousness: "Mutual conditioning and interdependence is important, Jon, particularly with regard to the "fundamental operation" of vi~n~nana, because there is a strong inclination to take vi~n~nana to be a "self". I don't get what you are after here, Jon. *It seems like you are trying to "get me"! It seems you are doing all you can to try to catch me in some "heresy". I'd rather we didn't relate to each other that way. :-)*" Let me assure you that I am not out to 'catch' you or anyone, and I agree that that would not be an appropriate basis for an exchange. I was raising some questions on your previous post which I will now try to explain in statement form. Throughout the suttas the Buddha speaks of dhammas and of their characteristics. Thus, seeing consciousness is a dhamma, exhibiting the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Visible object is also a dhamma, exhibiting the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa. Likewise hearing consciousness and audible object, the other sense-door consciousness and their objects, and mind-door consciousness and certain mind-objects. On other occasions the same teaching is given using the khandhas as the means of classifying dhammas. What is being conveyed in these descriptions is both similarities and differences. All dhammas share certain similarities (being dhammas, having the 3 characteristics) and at the same time have their own unique property/characteristic (seeing consciousness is not visible object nor is it hearing consciousness, and so on). My point is that to adopt one's own 'definition' of dhammas using home-made terminology, even though we may consider that definition to be 'sutta-based', is to lose sight of the similarities and differences that were described by the Buddha. Furthermore, since our own definition can only ever be as good as our understanding of the suttas on which it is based, it must be very much a work-in-progress. In defining consciousness as 'a fundamental operation that arises co-occuringly and interdependently with other phenomena, never existing *on its own*', you say that this is sutta-based and is also something that is 'experientially clear' to you, in other words, is confirmed by your own experience. You also consider mutual conditioning and interdependence to be important things to emphasise. My questions were simply to the effect, what is to be gained by setting up one's own definition? ;-)) Why not stick to the terminology of the texts as far as possible, especially where the plain words of the suttas themselves are sufficiently meaningful? You no doubt feel that you have answered these questions already. Fair enough. I am only restating my earlier post in order to assure you that I was not trying to catch you out. I add below some comments on one other topic in your post. upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - >... > > > --------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > There are lots of points made in the suttas. What I wrote is also >sutta-based, and is experientially clear to me as well. I feel no compuntion to >restrict myself to only part of the teaching. >--------------------------------------------- > > > >>How does it help to introduce the concept of a 'fundamental operation', and >>how does an operation differ from a dhamma? What is the significance of >>consciousness 'never existing on its own' (while that might be true, >>what does it add to the description of being 'conditioned'?). >> >> >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Mutual conditioning and interdependence is important, Jon, >particularly with regard to the "fundamental operation" of vi~n~nana, because there is a strong inclination to take vi~n~nana to be a "self". I don't get what you are >after here, Jon. It seems like you are trying to "get me"! It seems you are >doing all you can to try to catch me in some "heresy". I'd rather we didn't >relate to each other that way. :-) >---------------------------------------------- > > ... >>>Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is >>>directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it >>>differently? >>>----------------------------------- >>>Howard: >>> No, I see that exactly the same as you. I was speaking, however, of our >>>ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of >>>ignorance. When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), there is true and valid experiencing. >>> >>> >>I'm not sure about 'true and valid' experiencing vs. 'defiled' >>experiencing (if that's the distinction you are making). Experiencing >>that is accompanied by ignorance, or any other kind of akusala, is no >>less 'true and valid', in terms of actual experiencing, than is >>experiencing that is accompanied by kusala factors. >> >> >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Huh? Experiencing accompanied by ignorance is a true and valid as >experiencing accompanied by wisdom??? Jon, what are you talking about! >--------------------------------------------- > > Whenever consciousness experiences an object, the various accompanying cetasikas perform their functions as usual (phassa contacts the object, sanna marks it, etc.). Thus I would not say we can talk about one kind of consciousness being more 'valid', or even 'truer', than another, in terms of the actual 'experiencing' of the object as the function of consciousness. When the consciousness is accompanied by panna, that mental factor directly experiences or knows the object in some manner, while when accompanied by ignorance there is no such knowing of the object. So referring back to your original statement, 'When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), there is true and valid experiencing', I would say instead, 'When there is awareness or wisdom, the object is directly known (in some manner, depending on the level of wisdom)'; however, there is experiencing of the object at every moment of consciousness. For example, at the moment of sense-door consciousness, which is neither kusala nor akusala (but is vipaka), is there not true and valid experiencing of the object? This is why I tend to question your comments on 'defiled' and 'undefiled' sanna generally (see below), although we must of course bear in mind that in the suttas 'sanna' is sometimes used to refer to consciousness. Jon >>>Sanna itself is not defiled, in that it always performs its function of >>>marking the object. >>>---------------------------------- >>>Howard: >>> I'm not speaking of the marking phase so much as the recognition phase. >>>And it is not helpful to think, on the basis of technical terminological usage, that our recognition or perception is undefiled. It is very much defiled. If sa~n~na, in its recognition function, were undefiled, we'd be "far along" already. As to how well sa~n~na fuctions in its marking operation in worldlings, I'm not sure - but I would bet that it is also quite imperfect. >>> >>> >>You say that if sa~n~na, in its 'recognition function', were undefiled, >>we'd be "far along" already. Are you referring to consciousness with >>panna when you talk about being "far along"? >> >> >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > I'm referring to relatively undefiled recognition as opposed to >defiled recognition. For example, a sa~n~na that confuses nama with rupa is defiled. >--------------------------------------- > > 49378 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:29am Subject: Dhamma thread ( 508 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) There are 7 jhanangas or 7 factors that cause unwavering mind. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'joy' 4. somanassa or 'mental pleasure' 5. domanassa or 'mental displeasure' 6. ekaggataa or 'one-pointedness' 7. upekkha or 'equanimity' 5. domanassa or 'mental displeasure' This is dosa cetasika and this cetasika arise together with 2 dosa cittas or 2 dosa muula cittas. Both dosa-cittas have patigha or 'strinking against' or 'rough touch' or 'rough contact'. When this dosa cetasika works as jhananga it become domanassa- jhaananga and it is this jhaananga that leads to all destruction both internally and externally. Through out the history there were many wars, battles, messacres, conflicts etc etc and all these arose from that dosa cetasika and because of unshakable nature of domanassa-jhaananga no one can hinder the will of leaders who cause wars. 6. ekaggataa or 'one-pointedness' This is ekaggataa cetasika. It is one-pointedness. It is evident and no further clarification is needed that one-pointedness works as a jhaananga. Actually the name jhaana seems the name of ekaggataa. Without this no other jhaananga can be called as jhaananga. Cetasika never arises singly. So other 6 jhaananga never arise singly. They arise with citta. While they arise with citta, they also arise with this jhaanaga ekaggataa or 'one-pointedness'. So it is evident that all 6 jhaanangas are always always (100 %) associated with ekaggataa or one-pointedness. This is why they are called jhaanangas. Without ekaggataa, there will not be any citta. 7. upekkhaa or 'equanimity' This is also jhaananga. But this jhaanaga does not arise with akusala jhaananga like 'domanassa' and 'akusala-somanassa' jhaananga. It is sure that all 15 ruupa jhaanas, all 12 aruupa jhaanas, all 8 lokuttaraa cittas do have upekkhaa as jhaananga. As all these are appanaa citta it is sure that upekkhaa is jhaananga. Still upekkhaa can arise with 12 kaama-sobhana citta without joy. This upekkhaa jhaananga is kusala-jhaananga even though they are not jhaana cittas or appanaa cittas. There is no akusala-upekkhaa-jhaananga. In 4 of 8 lobha cittas there is upekkha vedana. But that vedana is not upekkhaa-jhaananga. It is not unshakable dhamma. Actually this upekkha in 4 lobha citta is shakable. It is shakable by uddhacca and moha as they are akusala dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49379 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 509 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) This is not about NEP or Noble Eightfold Path. But this is about dhamma called path. There are dhamma that are parts that make a path leading to somewhere. These dhamma are called path-factors (part pf path) or magganga. There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration The first 8 factors are like the factors in NEP or Noble Eightfold Path or atthangika maggas. But latter 4 magggangas are not right path-factors. But they are also path-factors that lead to wrong destination. Regarding the middle 3 path-factors called samma-vaca, samma- kammanta and samma-ajiva there is no corresponding wrong path-factors. There do exist 'miccha-vaca, miccha-kammanta and miccha-ajiva'. But these 3 are not path-factors unlike 3 samma-maggangas of samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, and samma-ajiva. Miccha-vaca is made up of many dhamma like lobha, moha, ahirika, anottappa, uddhacca etc etc and it is not a single factor or a single dhamma unlike samma-vaca. Likewise miccha-kammanta and miccha-ajiva are also not path-factor dhamma. Again regarding 'sati', there is no path-factor like miccha-sati. That is there is no dhamma called miccha-sati. There is no cetasika for miccha-sati. There may exist miccha-sati. But that is not path- factor. If dhamma are clearly seen one will notice that there is no sati cetasika in any of akusala dhamma. So miccha-sati is not a path- factor or magganga. Here sati is just translated as 'mindfulness'. But it is more than 'mindfulness'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49380 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:47am Subject: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism nidive Hi Group, I read this sutta called Advice to Venerable Channa at the following address. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/ 144-channovada-e.htm If you would bother to read through it, I have questions to ask. 1. Why did the Buddha declare that Venerable Channa's suicide is faultless? 2. Was Venerable Channa an arahant? 3. Is is true that an arahant who commits suicide is faultless? 4. Does committing suicide violate the five precepts? Also I read about Anathapindika's daughter Sumana who let her life wasted away at the following address. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel334.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- Anathapindika had four children, three daughters and a son. Two of the daughters, Little Subhadda and Big Subhadda, were steeped in the Dhamma like their father and had attained stream-entry. And just as they took after their father in spiritual matters, so they did in worldly affairs; they were both happily married. But the youngest daughter, Sumana, surpassed even the rest of her family in her deep wisdom. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven, the highest form of existence in the sensual realm, and there she had to purge herself of the residue of dependence on other people, her last desire directed outwardly. (Dhp Comy) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't Sumana's behaviour tantamount to suicide (by refusing to consume food)? Since she is a once-returner, she cannot violate the 5 precepts. This suggests that taking one's own life is a "legal" option available to those Noble Ones who have reached at least the sotapanna stage of enlightenment, doesn't it? Afterall, they would not be reborn in any woeful realms, and they can only be reborn at most seven times. Regards, Swee Boon 49381 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: NOT The Four Noble Truths ... ? nidive Hi Christine, > I would like to hear anyone's understanding/opinion of this thread > about the Four Noble Truths not being about Truths for the manyfolk > to understand - this being merely a translation error - but > correctly being "Four Realities Evident to the Noble Ones" ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/index.html Breaking free "Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone BY ME AS WELL AS BY YOU. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha; the noble truth of the origin of dukkha; the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha. But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming." — DN 16 (with dukkha left untranslated) ------------------------------------------------------------------- I presume the Buddha is not teaching the Four Noble Truths to accomplished arahants! Regards, Swee Boon 49382 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:17am Subject: Free invitation to the Great Google Gmail! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Google Gmail is Giantly Great: The free Google Gmail Offers: > 2.5 Gigabyte storage !!! No advertisements... Highly efficient Spam filtering! Free, multiple & filterable Forwarding. Free POP and SMTP mail client access. IMHO the very best free email currently. One needs to be invited to it though... If anyone is interested in a free gmail account, then send an email to me: bhikkhu.samahita@... including these words: samahita & gmail, then I will mail you an invitation asap... : - ] bhikkhu samahita, sri lanka 49383 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] NOT The Four Noble Truths ... ? dacostacharles Hi Chris, Does it really make a difference whether they are truths or realities, ..., What matters is if they can be used to relieve/end/reduce suffering. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christine Forsyth Sent: Sunday, 28 August, 2005 10:29 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] NOT The Four Noble Truths ... ? Hello all, I would like to hear anyone's understanding/opinion of this thread about the Four Noble Truths not being about Truths for the manyfolk to understand - this being merely a translation error - but correctly being "Four Realities Evident to the Noble Ones" <..> 49384 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? dacostacharles Hi Teb, You asked how so. The key is the statement: "They are inseparable & mutually dependent." If this is true, then you have a forward and reverse relationship. Just the details of their relationship are missing. And, that is not so important when trying to see a DO connection. The fact that they are inseparable & mutually dependent, alludes to a DO relationship that is forward and reverse. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Wednesday, 24 August, 2005 02:07 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ? Hi, Charles D. - You wrote : > This sounds like a DO relationship to me (forward and reverse relationship). > Tep: How so? Warm regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi all > > In response to: > > >implication is that mind is one thing and consciousness is another. > > Not so, friend, but Rather: > They are inseparable & mutually dependent: > What ever one feels, perceives, thinks, attends to, > analyzes & intends, of that one is also conscious... > > > 49385 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - Jon, it would have been helpful to me if you had sited the time and date of my original post (or quoted all of my post), because I no longer have a copy of my original post - I don't even know how long ago I posted it, and I forget the context and point of the discussion. The gaps you left in quoting my post are such that I just don't understand the context of our various statements that you *do* quote. I will try to reply as best I can below anyway. In a message dated 8/28/05 5:10:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard There is one comment in particular in your post that I would like to address. You say, in the context of your description of consciousness: "Mutual conditioning and interdependence is important, Jon, particularly with regard to the "fundamental operation" of vi~n~nana, because there is a strong inclination to take vi~n~nana to be a "self". I don't get what you are after here, Jon. *It seems like you are trying to "get me"! It seems you are doing all you can to try to catch me in some "heresy". I'd rather we didn't relate to each other that way. :-)*" Let me assure you that I am not out to 'catch' you or anyone, and I agree that that would not be an appropriate basis for an exchange. I was raising some questions on your previous post which I will now try to explain in statement form. Throughout the suttas the Buddha speaks of dhammas and of their characteristics. Thus, seeing consciousness is a dhamma, exhibiting the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Visible object is also a dhamma, exhibiting the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa. Likewise hearing consciousness and audible object, the other sense-door consciousness and their objects, and mind-door consciousness and certain mind-objects. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, sure. The tilakkhana are mentioned repeatedly by the Buddha. ----------------------------------- On other occasions the same teaching is given using the khandhas as the means of classifying dhammas. --------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, yes. The khandhic scheme of analysis is the main one used in the suttas. though less so in the Samyutta Nikaya. Nothing special here. Nothing to dispute. -------------------------------------- What is being conveyed in these descriptions is both similarities and differences. All dhammas share certain similarities (being dhammas, having the 3 characteristics) and at the same time have their own unique property/characteristic (seeing consciousness is not visible object nor is it hearing consciousness, and so on). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Almost nothing is said with regard to the differences in the suttas, because they are obvious. What is emphasized and is of primary importance are the shared tilakkhana. (Yes, on occasion, one will confuse nama with rupa.) --------------------------------------- My point is that to adopt one's own 'definition' of dhammas using home-made terminology, even though we may consider that definition to be 'sutta-based', is to lose sight of the similarities and differences that were described by the Buddha. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Jon, I don't know what you are referring to here. I don't see your quoting me giving my "own" definitions. I can't respond to this. I haven't a clue what you are talking about. What you say in the foregoing does sound a bit disparaging, though, to my ears. What in the world are you talking about here? ---------------------------------------- Furthermore, since our own definition can only ever be as good as our understanding of the suttas on which it is based, it must be very much a work-in-progress. In defining consciousness as 'a fundamental operation that arises co-occuringly and interdependently with other phenomena, never existing *on its own*', you say that this is sutta-based and is also something that is 'experientially clear' to you, in other words, is confirmed by your own experience. You also consider mutual conditioning and interdependence to be important things to emphasise. ----------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, that's not a definition of consciousness. It is just a comment *about* consciousness. Now, of all the mental functions, is not consciousness "the leader"? [Maybe if I use the Abhidhammic jargon, you'll see why I describe consciousness as a fundamental operation.] And does not consciousness arise co-occuringly and interdependently with cetasikas, and never on its own? This is all rather straightforward from the Abhidhammic perspective, Jon! Can you not see why I might not wonder whether you are (inexplicably) trying to lay a trap of some sort? I just don't get what you are after here, Jon. ----------------------------------------- My questions were simply to the effect, what is to be gained by setting up one's own definition? ;-)) ----------------------------------------- Howard: When I find someone who has done that, I'll ask him! ----------------------------------------- Why not stick to the terminology of the texts as far as possible, especially where the plain words of the suttas themselves are sufficiently meaningful? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ho, hum. ---------------------------------------- You no doubt feel that you have answered these questions already. Fair enough. I am only restating my earlier post in order to assure you that I was not trying to catch you out. I add below some comments on one other topic in your post. upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - >... > > > --------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > There are lots of points made in the suttas. What I wrote is also >sutta-based, and is experientially clear to me as well. I feel no compuntion to >restrict myself to only part of the teaching. >--------------------------------------------- > > > >>How does it help to introduce the concept of a 'fundamental operation', and >>how does an operation differ from a dhamma? What is the significance of >>consciousness 'never existing on its own' (while that might be true, >>what does it add to the description of being 'conditioned'?). >> >> >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Mutual conditioning and interdependence is important, Jon, >particularly with regard to the "fundamental operation" of vi~n~nana, because there is a strong inclination to take vi~n~nana to be a "self". I don't get what you are >after here, Jon. It seems like you are trying to "get me"! It seems you are >doing all you can to try to catch me in some "heresy". I'd rather we didn't >relate to each other that way. :-) >---------------------------------------------- > > ... >>>Hardness that is the object of satipatthana is the mere hardness that is >>>directly experienced, as I understand the teachings. Do you see it >>>differently? >>>----------------------------------- >>>Howard: >>> No, I see that exactly the same as you. I was speaking, however, of our >>>ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed by a veil of >>>ignorance. When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), there is true and valid experiencing. >>> >>> >>I'm not sure about 'true and valid' experiencing vs. 'defiled' >>experiencing (if that's the distinction you are making). Experiencing >>that is accompanied by ignorance, or any other kind of akusala, is no >>less 'true and valid', in terms of actual experiencing, than is >>experiencing that is accompanied by kusala factors. >> >> >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Huh? Experiencing accompanied by ignorance is a true and valid as >experiencing accompanied by wisdom??? Jon, what are you talking about! >--------------------------------------------- > > Whenever consciousness experiences an object, the various accompanying cetasikas perform their functions as usual (phassa contacts the object, sanna marks it, etc.). Thus I would not say we can talk about one kind of consciousness being more 'valid', or even 'truer', than another, in terms of the actual 'experiencing' of the object as the function of consciousness. ------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, you are very keen on distinguishing characteristics of dhammas. Well, I consider a very important distinguishing to be that of defiled citta from undefiled citta. Jon, again you are picking at words just looking to "get" me on something, and I just don't understand why! ------------------------------------- When the consciousness is accompanied by panna, that mental factor directly experiences or knows the object in some manner, while when accompanied by ignorance there is no such knowing of the object. So referring back to your original statement, 'When there is awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom), there is true and valid experiencing', I would say instead, 'When there is awareness or wisdom, the object is directly known (in some manner, depending on the level of wisdom)'; however, there is experiencing of the object at every moment of consciousness. For example, at the moment of sense-door consciousness, which is neither kusala nor akusala (but is vipaka), is there not true and valid experiencing of the object? --------------------------------------- Howard: "You say 'po-tey-to' and I say 'po-tah-to - let's called the whole thing off," as the song lyric goes. ;-) --------------------------------------- This is why I tend to question your comments on 'defiled' and 'undefiled' sanna generally (see below), although we must of course bear in mind that in the suttas 'sanna' is sometimes used to refer to consciousness. Jon >>>Sanna itself is not defiled, in that it always performs its function of >>>marking the object. >>>---------------------------------- >>>Howard: >>> I'm not speaking of the marking phase so much as the recognition phase. >>>And it is not helpful to think, on the basis of technical terminological usage, that our recognition or perception is undefiled. It is very much defiled. If sa~n~na, in its recognition function, were undefiled, we'd be "far along" already. As to how well sa~n~na fuctions in its marking operation in worldlings, I'm not sure - but I would bet that it is also quite imperfect. >>> >>> >>You say that if sa~n~na, in its 'recognition function', were undefiled, >>we'd be "far along" already. Are you referring to consciousness with >>panna when you talk about being "far along"? >> >> >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > I'm referring to relatively undefiled recognition as opposed to >defiled recognition. For example, a sa~n~na that confuses nama with rupa is defiled. >--------------------------------------- ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49386 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:39am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H (Matheesha, Phil and Jon) - I'd like to comment on your message #49373 to Matheesha about paramattha dhamma "ideas" from your own perspective, e.g. "mundane" and "supramundane" vipassanas, and right understanding. Your key ideas are listed first, and my comments/questions then follow. 1. About the Causes of Right Understanding : KH: In a paramattha moment of vipassana, right understanding is the forerunner. Even though all path factors arise together, right understanding is the cause of the others to arise. Then, having arisen, they all support each other. Tep: Where have you got the idea that "right understanding is the forerunner" ? Isn't this idea contradicting with the following passage from The Visuddhimagga, page 6? Here virtue is first, concentration second, and understanding last. The Blessed One said : I,3. `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. [Vism. I, 3] Are you proposing that the Paramattha principles can be used to "directly" condition the "right understanding" of the Arahant to arise without sila development and samadhi bhavana ? Is this idea theoretical or already practical and has produced real results? 2. About When Right Understanding Occurs : KH: Not appreciating right understanding as forerunner, some people sit on a cushion or focus on walking (etc.) in order to meditate. They think right effort or right concentration comes first. But real (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise. Tep: Strong saddha in the Triple-gem and exertion(energy, viriya) are two supporting conditions for mindfulness. The meditator with these two dhammas will be mindful to generate endeavors, arouse persistence, uphold and exert his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... and for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. [Samyutta Nikaya , mahavagga, Siamrath edition, page 246]. That is samma-vayama. Strong saddha in the Triple-gem also means he knows kusala and akusala, their cause and cessation, and the path of practice that leads to established virtue. Such a person is said to be "one of right view", according to MN 9 [ "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?"]. For such person there is no waiting for "whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise", which may never come. Moreover, these four qualities [endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha and endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones] are called the factors of stream- entry. 3. How Are Defilements Reduced and then Destroyed? KH: Moments of mundane vipassana (satipatthana) weaken the defilements, whereas moments of supramundane vipassana (magga- citta) finally eradicate them. A sotapanna is, for example, completely incapable of wrong view. Tep: Theoretically, I have no problem with that. However, nothing of that sort happens without training (sikkha) in sila, samadhi and panna. [From Nyanatiloka Dictionary] "The 'training', which the Buddha's disciple has to undergo, is 3-fold: training in higher morality (adhisíla- sikkha) in higher mentality (adhicitta-sikkha) in higher wisdom (adhipanna-sikkha). This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samadhi, panna). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava)." ----------------------------- 4. There Is No "Doing" at the Paramattha Level KH: When, for example, we think we are chopping wood with an axe, there is the illusion of doing. In reality, there are only moments of nama a rupa. In some of those moments there will be concepts of wood chopping (ideas of doing), but in reality there is no doing apart from dhammas - arising, performing their functions and falling away. Tep: At the atomic level the piece of wood and the wood-chopper are not "seen", so there is no wood-chopping at the atomic level. Which level is illusory - the atomic level where there are only electrons and protons, or the macro level where there are the piece of wood and the wood-chopper? 5. Sila and the Absolute(Paramattha) Sense KH: Sila is there in the absolute sense too. Every kusala citta can be classified as either dana, sila or bhavana - depending on its co- arising cetasikas. The point is; there is no doer of the sila. Tep: There is a do-er right now, but you don't see him at the Paramattha level. So, please come back down to earth from the ideal world. Right now is reality to develop sila, samadhi and panna. "Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava)." Also see item 3 above. 6. Meaning of Insight (vipassana?) KH: Knowledge (is) intellectual understanding of the Dhamma. Insight means : 1, putting that intellectual understanding into practice (mundane insight) and 2, full penetration of the Dhamma (supramundane insight). Tep: How do you put intellectual understanding to produce mundane insight and finally full penetration? By practicing (e.g. using Maha- satipatthana Sutta), of course. Practicing is developing. Development is heedful. Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Matheesha, > > ------------ > M: > The Buddha gave public discourses sometimes. While people may have been aware that he gave teachings deep in meaning this did not mean that everyone understood what he meant. There is one recorded instance when he actually gives up trying to explain anatta to a someone. The buddha said some people would get up and walk away in the middle of the discourse. Only a few would have had the conditions to penetrate into the meaning. There are recorded instances of monks developing wrong views. Some even commiting suicide based on teachings taken the wrong way, while the buddha was living in the local area. The journey from the conventional to the absolute is a gradual one after all. I think it is a bit idealistic to expect > things to be very different back then. Puthajjanas are just that, > living conventional lives. > ------------------ > 49387 From: "frank" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:05am Subject: dhamma soup for the hard to please dhamma_service Dhammapada 227-228: This has come down from old, Atula, & not just from today: they find fault with one who sits silent, they find fault with one who speaks a great deal, they find fault with one who measures his words. There's no one unfaulted in the world. There never was, will be, nor at present is found anyone entirely faulted or entirely praised. 49388 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 510 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration 1. samma-ditthi or right-view This is panna-cetasika. This dhamma arises as path-factor. This means that when this dhamma arises it helps crossing to other side with an aid as path. There are many samma-ditthi. Samma-ditthi arises in kusala dhamma. When offerings are done or when moral preceptions are done there arise samma-ditthi as path-factors. Because of samma-ditthi (panna) all kusala dhamma like offering or moral preceptions are accomplished. Beyond kaama-kusala, samma-ditthi also helps in jhaana matter. In all preparatory phase and in all stages of jhaana whether they are ruupa or aruupa samma-ditthi path-factor arises and because of this jhaana matters are accomplished. Samma-ditthi in its highest power can be seen in lokuttara samma- ditthi. This samma-ditthi only arises at lokuttara magga kaala. It is a part of NEP or Noble Eightfold Path. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49389 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Definition of 'Mind' ?/ Dependent Origination buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles D. - Your reply was : > You asked how so. > > Charles D. : The key is the statement: "They are inseparable & >mutually dependent." > > If this is true, then you have a forward and reverse relationship. Just the details of their relationship are missing. And, that is not so important > when trying to see a DO connection. The fact that they are >inseparable & mutually dependent, alludes to a DO relationship that is forward and reverse. > Tep: But I am not sure what you meant because the "mind" is not a link in the DO. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Teb, > 49390 From: nina Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:33am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Dear Friends, ***** Nina. 49391 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon & all - In a message dated 8/28/05 10:44:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Jon, it would have been helpful to me if you had sited the time and date of my original post ===================== The word, of course, should have been 'cited'! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49392 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:13pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and all) - I am ready now to respond to your message #49363. The main points you made are numbered 1 to 7. Forgive me if my answers and the serious tone may imply too much confidence (that I don't have). I only respond to you from my understanding of the Teachings. Please advise me if you find errors or wrong views. 1. Phil: If there is mental development, why is it necessary to have the idea of practice. If there is no mental development, what good will "practice" do? Tep: Patipatti means "way, method, practice, conduct" [PTS]. Sikkha means "study, training, discipline". Anyone who trains with the three sikkha(see below) has a clear pupose of becoming free from cankers by practicing the Eightfold path (sila, samadhi, panna). "The 'training', which the Buddha's disciple has to undergo, is 3-fold: training in higher morality (adhisíla-sikkha), in higher mentality (adhicitta- sikkha), and in higher wisdom (adhipanna-sikkha). This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samadhi, panna)". [-- Nyanatilika Dictionary] Therefore, with a real practice of the Dhamma there will always be development in the eightfold path(magga). The higher mentality and higher wisdom are trained by samatha-vipassana bhavana. Based on the Buddha's Teachings, it is clear that mental development is not possible without conscientious practice of the Eightfold path. 2. Phil: You would say that the intentional practice, following a teacher's instructions, ... will lead to the bhavana. In my opinion, if there is not already understanding, following instructions from a teacher will just condition more lobha and unwholesome belief in rites and rituals (I forget the Pali) which I called "technique-ism." Tep: If you really feel negative about the word "intention" we can replace it with conviction (saddha) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the ariya puggala (like the great Arahants Sariputta, Ananda, Moggallana, ... and Ariya Savakas such as Luangpu Dun, for example). Indeed, with great saddha in the Triple-gem plus training in sila we'll be endowed with the four factors of stream-entry. We will have a right view that protects against the "lobha and unwholesome belief in rites and rituals" as you put it. Please read my DSG message # 49386 for more detail on right view. This right view will set one free from the three fetters. 3. Phil: But that is because I am aware of how much lobha is arising through me, so much clinging to results, so much desire to be a wise man, liberated from suffering. So very much. That is not true for everyone. I shouldn't assume it is. But I also know I'm not the only one. You would say that this could be chanda, wholesome chanda, and I'm sure it is at times. But I know my lustful, hungering, greedy tendencies and I know they apply to Dhamma as well. So I will be careful about following instructions from teachers, because it will be counter- productive. Tep: With so much lobha arising (to get fast results, to be wiser, to be free from dukkha) then we will need to contemplate the impermanence of conditioned dhammas, i.e. aniccanupassana, and learn to let go rather than attach to sankhara dhamma. It is not easy and this is the training called adhipanna sikkha (as discussed above). Another powerful way to slowly but surely melt down "lustful, hungering, greedy tendencies" is through Indriya-samvara sila (as discussed in Kundaliya Sutta) that covers the adhisila sikkha. All trainings are not easy and not meant for people with weak conviction in the Triple-gem. I don't know how to directly develop the direct "right understanding" that leads to the path without the 3 sikkha. I don't know a fast way (like preparing a hamburger ^_*) that can get me the wonderful right understanding of the lokuttara kind that Jon, Sarah, Nina, and Ken H (among several other DSG members) have be theorizing about, but so far have not been able to produce any result. Do you? 4. Phil: Turning to the teaching from Luang Po (sorry if I mispelled that) > "Even if the heart is not calm, one should not let it go out too far. One should use mindfulness, looking within the body to see impermanence, dukkha and no-self and the repulsiveness of the body. There is no meaning to this body, no core. When the heart sees this clearly it will become tired of these states of impermanence, dukkha and no-self. > Weariness of the vanities of the world, disinterest and a lessening of desire will develop. This practice of internal mindfulness can also cut the grasping after the Khandhas (body-mind personality)." Tep: Let's make sure we both understand Luangpu's teaching the same way. First, he warns that one must start with a calm mind otherwise no result may be expected. He suggests that one restraints the sensing faculties, i.e. not letting the mind go outside following the five objects of desire. One should exercise kayagata-sati kammatthana bhavana for nekkhamma (renunciation, 'freedom from sensual lust') which is a part of the samma-sankappa. Until the citta (or heart) sees clearly the dukkha or danger that is caused by the clinging to the impermanent khandhas, there is no way one may "become tired of these states of impermanence, dukkha and no-self". 5. Phil: But for those without understanding (such as me) and a lot of desire for results (such as me) this would be a counterproductive teaching because it is like a bird trying to teach a fish how to fly. If the fish had wings to fly (panna) the fish would fly, but if the fish doesn't have the wings, he will just beat his fins (?) and think that he is developing wings, but in fact is only making his fins stronger and becoming more like a fish, not more like a bird. Tep: There are no fish or birds here, only nama-rupas that can learn the Dhamma and be trained in the 3 sikkha. You don't go to the top of a mountain by wishing, only by making an effort such as climbing or using a certain realistic means (e.g. a helicopter). When we first learned English, we began with A, B, C... What Luangpu suggests is practical for a beginner, not for a Sotapanna or higher. The key is to start developing concentration either by Satipatthana bhavana (DN 22) or Kayagatasati kammatthana(MN 119). The freedom from sensual lusts include your "a lot of desire for results" too. 6. Phil: I think it's interesting that in the discourses we don't find promises using "will" in the way it is used above. (eg "when the heart sees this it will grow tired of....") Instead, the Buddha (and his translator) uses the present tense, the stative, which is used to described states, habitual actions. Tep: You have to read the Thai version of the Suttas! So it depends on who the translators are. It is important to notice that Luangpu guarantees that "weariness of the vanities of the world, disinterest and a lessening of desire will develop". He guarantees those only for people who have unusually strong saddha and viriya in practicing the Eightfold path: they will develop mindfulness and thorough comprehension in nama and rupa in the present moment. 7. Phil: So what we have here is more like a description of what arises through a monk (an ariyan, at that) with understanding rather than a prediction of the way understanding will arise for a person who doesn't have understanding to begin with. I think the latter is attractive for us, of course, but I think the former is more helpful in the long run. We have such a long way to go. I think understanding how far we are from the goal is in itself a very helpful kind of understanding, a necessary understanding. Tep: I don't think so, Phil. What makes the Buddha's Teachings wonderful is that much of what he taught is provable by a person with strong saddha in the Triple-gem and who has trained in adhisila- sikkha. With adhicitta sikkha and adhipanna (e.g. in Satipatthana and Bojjhanga) he will surely establish the eight path factors in him. Remember that at the end of Mahasatipatthana Sutta there is a guarantee that it will be no more than 7 years for anyone who follows that sutta to attain at least the state of non-returner? We can test Luangpu's words too by training(sikkha) according to his "instructions". Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Thanks, I did overlook this when I posted to Nina about the > passage Frank posted. You asked me what I think of this, and what I > think "practice" is, since I said "first understand and then > practice will arise" or words to that effect. > 49393 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:12pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion) buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (KenH, Evan, Phil, Htoo and all Friends) - Thank you very much, Jon, for not forgeting about our unfinished discussion. Jon: > Now it seems to me that as long as we agree that the enlightenment > (supramundane path and fruition) moments are unique, it doesn't matter a > whole lot what terms we use to distinguish these from other, > non-supramundane, moments. If the distinction is a valid and useful > one, and it helps our understanding to use certain terms to express that distinction, then I don't see any particular problem. > Tep: My most concern is not about the meanings of 'lokiya' or 'lokuttara' per se, but rather about whether the Buddha talked about "mundane jhanas" and "supramundane jhanas", and even "samatha jhanas" versus "vipassana jhanas". If he never did, then I would be happy happy. Why? My point has been that the Buddha only taught his monks one kind of jhanas (4 or 5 rupa- and arupa-jhanas) and that the four arupa jhanas were defined by him as the samma-samadhi in DN 22 and consistently throughout the Sutta Pitaka, regardless of whether the discourse was about a samatha kamatthana or vipassana bhavana. That is, in conclusion, my point has been that our Great Sage, Great Teacher Buddha taught only one kind of jhanas that lead to vipassana- nana and vimutti. This is very important because it means the following: 1. There are no dumb jhanas in Buddhism. 2. Samma-samadhi requires 4 rupa-jhanas. 3. To become an Ariya-puggala (there are 4 kinds) without a jhana is not possible. 4. The jhanas that are induced by vipassana bhavana are the same kind as those in samatha bhavana. By the way, I am not interested in reading any Commentaries or commentaries about this subject. I am only interested in what the Buddha said. I hope I have made myself extremely clear. Warm regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (and All) > > I think my laptop is finally back in good working order, after another > trip to the service department (in Hong Kong this time) and the > replacement of the system board yet again, along with miscellaneous > other adjustments. > > My first job is to send out replies to some outstanding posts from > before our trip, partly to address one or two particular issues and > partly because I had already started on replies and don't want to waste > the work done ;-)) > > Tep, the issue of 'mundane jhana' is one that you have just brought up > again in your thread with KenH, so I am starting with this post of yours > from our earlier series. > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Hi, Jon : > > > >I shall be glad if you may point out for me a few suttas in which the > >Buddha taught his monks the "mundane jhana" that did not lead to > >enlightenment as the goal. > > > > And in a later post to Evan you say: > "However, there is no mentioning about a "mundane" jhana in this sutta -- or in any of the suttas I have studied. My suspicion has been that the term "mundane" was invented by a commentator. That's why I asked Jon to help me reject/confirm my suspicion." > > I gather from this that what you are questioning is the use of the term > 'mundane', not only in the context of mundane jhana but in any context > whatsoever. So let us discuss terminology first. > > 'Mundane' is a translation of the Pali word 'lokiya' ('worldly'). It > simply refers to anything that is not 'supramundane' (Pali: > 'lokuttara'), where 'supramundane' refers to enlightenment moments, > specifically the actual path (magga) and fruition (phala) > consciousnesses, or anything pertaining to enlightenment. 'Ariya' > (noble, as in Noble Eightfold Path) is a term used in the suttas that > has a similar meaning to 'lokuttara' (although not exactly the same). > (snipped) > The reason we don't just use 'path' and 'non-path' is that 'path' can > refer to pre-enlightenment moments as well as actual moments of > enlightenment, that is to say, to the moments that constitute the > development towards supramundane path moments. > > I would be interested to have your comments on what I have said so far. > > Jon 49394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:53pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhatrue Hi Tep, I just wanted to tell you that I am very impressed by your responses to Phil's worries and questions. He made his positions very clear and you made your responses very clear. Always, it goes back to what the Buddha taught, not what K. Sujin teaches. As boring as Phil may find it, the Noble Eightfold Path is the mainstay and the treasure chest of answers. Also, as you stress, the Buddha's path isn't easy and a philosophy of defeatism doesn't make it more so. Bravo for a wonderful post!! Metta, James ps. Regretfully, I am going to snip your post for the moderators. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Phil (and all) - > > I am ready now to respond to your message #49363. The main points > you made are numbered 1 to 7. Forgive me if my answers and the > serious tone may imply too much confidence (that I don't have). I only > respond to you from my understanding of the Teachings. Please > advise me if you find errors or wrong views. 49395 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] NOT The Four Noble Truths ... ? jonoabb Hi Chris I've not had a chance to read the link you give, but there is a lot of background detail to the Four Noble Truths in the Dispeller of Delusion at Ch. 4 and the Visuddhimagga at Ch. XVI. For example, Dispeller para 424 and Vis XVI, 20 both give the explanation (among others) that they are called noble truth because the noble ones penetrate them. Jon Christine Forsyth wrote: >Hello all, > >I would like to hear anyone's understanding/opinion of this thread >about the Four Noble Truths not being about Truths for the manyfolk to >understand - this being merely a translation error - but correctly >being "Four Realities Evident to the Noble Ones" > >http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=17791 > >metta and peace, >Chris >---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > 49396 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:58pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon (and Herman), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >I agree with Herman here. It is often said that one of the stages of > >vipassana insight is "knowing the difference between nama and rupa" > >but I believe that this comes from the commentaries and not from the > >suttas. The suttas, if memory serves, describe how one is supposed to > >see consciousness (nama) immersed in the body (rupa) like one would > >see a thread strung through a clear gem. This metaphor would involve > > seeing the relationship between nama and rupa and seeing their > >differences. Not quite the same idea that Jon suggests, in my > >opinion. If there are suttas which state that one should know nama as > >separate from rupa and vice versa, I would be interested to hear of them. > > > > A good question. I cannot off-hand say if there are suttas which state > that the distinction between nama and rupa is to be known, but the > suttas that deal with khandhas make it clear that each of the khandhas > is to be known as it is, that is, rupa khandha as rupa khandha, > different from the other 4 khandhas. > > Then of course there are suttas which make it clear that seeing > consciousness is to be known as seeing consciousness, visible object as > visible object, feeling as feeling, and so on. > > I think there is plenty of support in the suttas for the view that > (individual) dhammas are to be seen (a) as dhammas, and (b) as > particular kinds of dhammas, and (c) as exhibiting certain > characteristics. So I do not see any problem with the idea of the > difference between namas and rupas as being one of the stages of insight > knowledge. > > Jon I am pretty sure that we discussed this subject some time ago and that the thread had reached its standard conclusion (a stalemate). Herman even jumped into the tread to defend me a few times, a welcome treat. If I missed something let me know. Metta, James 49397 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Brahmavamso (Re: e-card from Bangkok 3) jonoabb Hi Chris Could we have some examples from suttas to illustrate your point about 'taking the Suttas to mean exactly what they say'? In my experience, discussing someone else's interpretation rarely leads to anything useful, especially since we have access to most of the Tipitaka in English trasnlation. Jon Christine Forsyth wrote: >So, it could be said that accidentally putting this CD into the >player has led to considerable perturbation - and I wonder what >others think of taking the Suttas to mean exactly what they >say .... And has anyone else studied/followed/listened to the >teachings of Ajahn Brahmavamso? > >metta >Chris >---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > 49398 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > Jon, it would have been helpful to me if you had sited the time and date >of my original post (or quoted all of my post), because I no longer have a >copy of my original post - I don't even know how long ago I posted it, and I >forget the context and point of the discussion. The gaps you left in quoting my >post are such that I just don't understand the context of our various statements >that you *do* quote. I will try to reply as best I can below anyway. > > >.... > > >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > "You say 'po-tey-to' and I say 'po-tah-to - let's called the whole thing >off," as the song lyric goes. ;-) >--------------------------------------- > > Yes of course, no problem. (Sorry you feel 'picked-on' -- not intended). Jon 49399 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhatrue Hi Tep, Correction: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Also, as you stress, the Buddha's path isn't easy and a philosophy > of defeatism doesn't make it more so. Bravo for a wonderful post!! Supposed to read: Also, as you stress, the Buddha's path isn't easy and a philosophy of defeatism doesn't make is LESS so. Metta, James