49400 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 3, paññaa of samatha gazita2002 hello Sarah and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita & Nina, > ...... > > K.Sujin stressed that pa~n~natti refers to anything which is not a > reality. Rupas of the past and future refer to rupas which were or will be > present rupas. When we think about them, we think about concepts or > pa~n~natti of rupas. Cittas that have fallen away similarly never `change' > into concepts, but when there is thinking of past cittas now, it is > thinking of concepts. As you said, Nina, when there is direct awareness of > realities, there is no doubt at all about `what is a dhamma and what is a > concept'. A. this is very clear to me. I was thinking that this was probably the case. > > The `reviewing' of nibbana is definitely the direct experience of the > reality of nibbana. No conepts are involved. In the case of `reviewing' of > jhana cittas and factors for the one who hasn't developed satipatthana, I > don't think we can say. Remember that there was no direct understanding of > realities when the jhana cittas themselves arose. A. seems like the panna of satipatthana and panna of jhana level are very different from ea other, and I'm happy with that theoretical knowledge :-) > > p.s I think everyone should ask questions here or in India on whatever > they find useful. Last time, K.Sujin asked me to remind people to prepare > questions and I hope Azita will have her notebook of them ready too! > Azita, do you want us to still look out an old (smaller) tape- recorder to > take to you in Bkk? A. Sarah, this offer is most kind of you and I would appreciate the recorder very much. I need more listening material and the India discussions last year have been very helpful. My note book is out and pen ready! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita > ======== 49401 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Suicide in Theravada Buddhism robmoult Hi Swee Boon, I recently spent an afternoon chatting with Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari on this subject. He has researched the subject and you can read his essay at: http://www.metta.lk/english/suicide.htm Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Group, > > I read this sutta called Advice to Venerable Channa at the following > address. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/ > 144-channovada-e.htm > > If you would bother to read through it, I have questions to ask. > > 1. Why did the Buddha declare that Venerable Channa's suicide is > faultless? > 2. Was Venerable Channa an arahant? > 3. Is is true that an arahant who commits suicide is faultless? > 4. Does committing suicide violate the five precepts? > > Also I read about Anathapindika's daughter Sumana who let her life > wasted away at the following address. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel334.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Anathapindika had four children, three daughters and a son. Two of the > daughters, Little Subhadda and Big Subhadda, were steeped in the > Dhamma like their father and had attained stream-entry. And just as > they took after their father in spiritual matters, so they did in > worldly affairs; they were both happily married. But the youngest > daughter, Sumana, surpassed even the rest of her family in her deep > wisdom. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second > step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but > not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the > happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual > strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep > sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to > death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven, the highest form of > existence in the sensual realm, and there she had to purge herself of > the residue of dependence on other people, her last desire directed > outwardly. (Dhp Comy) > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't Sumana's behaviour tantamount to suicide (by refusing to consume > food)? > > Since she is a once-returner, she cannot violate the 5 precepts. > > This suggests that taking one's own life is a "legal" option available > to those Noble Ones who have reached at least the sotapanna stage of > enlightenment, doesn't it? > > Afterall, they would not be reborn in any woeful realms, and they can > only be reborn at most seven times. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 49402 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. egberdina Hi Nina, I hope you and Lodewijk are well. The following came to mind. Sanna, I guess. > > hardness appears. Hardness and softness are r�pas which arise and then fall > away immediately. Because of sa��� we think of different parts of the body > and I will give an example of this. The idea of me / not-me is so easily substantiated by the act of touch as you describe it. It is so easy to pay no attention to but there is paramattha-wise, a great difference between the sensation of touching your own leg with your finger (as you come to know them over time) and touching someone elses leg with your finger. One may come to understand that in the first example touching your leg gives rise to the leg feeling the finger and the finger feeling the leg simultaneously. Or you may adopt a theory that there are two rapidly alternating sensations of touch, which I think is not very parsimonious. But either way the boundary self/not self has verifiable empirical basis, satipatthana-wise. Kind Regards Herman Someone who had a leg being amputated > still has a feeling that he has that leg. It is sa���, remembrance, which > conditions him to think that he still has that leg, although it has been > amputated. There is remembrance of all the r�pas of that leg. In reality the > r�pa which appears now falls away immediately and, when there are the > appropriate conditions, it is replaced by another r�pa which arises and > falls away again. However, people think, because of sa���, of their whole > body from head to toes, just as in the case of the person who had his leg > amputated but still has a feeling that he has that leg. Only when the wrong > remembrance of self, att� sa���, because of which one is used to thinking > that the whole body exists, has been eradicated, can one really understand > that all dhammas are anatt�, non-self. Then there is nothing left of the > body as a whole, there is only one characteristic of r�pa at a time which is > appearing. This is the way to understand the meaning of anatt�. > > It is difficult to eliminate the wrong remembrance of self.� When the r�pa > which is cold impinges on a certain part of the body, it falls away > immediately, but it is difficult to realize this. There is still remembrance > of, �It is I who is sitting�, there is still remembrance of arms, legs, > head, of the body as a whole. The wrong view of self has not been > eradicated. The Buddha explained that, when sati arises and is aware of the > characteristic of the reality which is appearing, one at a time, through the > bodysense, there is at such a moment the Application of Mindfulness of the > Body.� The Four Applications of Mindfulness are not something else but > mindfulness of what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the > tongue, the bodysense or the mind.�> > > ***** > Nina. > > > 49403 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Thank you very much for taking time to read my rather long post and give me a nice feedback. I am particularly pleased that we are in agreement on the issues that I strongly believe in. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Correction: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Also, as you stress, the Buddha's path isn't easy and a philosophy > > of defeatism doesn't make it more so. Bravo for a wonderful post!! > > Supposed to read: > Also, as you stress, the Buddha's path isn't easy and a philosophy of > defeatism doesn't make is LESS so. > > Metta, > James 49404 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/28/05 6:35:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > "You say 'po-tey-to' and I say 'po-tah-to - let's called the whole thing >off," as the song lyric goes. ;-) >--------------------------------------- > > Yes of course, no problem. (Sorry you feel 'picked-on' -- not intended). ===================== Just to be clear about this business of You_say_'po-tey-to'_and_I_say_'po-tah-to', what I mean is that I don't really see a substantive difference in our positions at all, but just a difference in our expressing of those positions. But you must see something that I don't see, and I frankly just don't know how to respond. Ironically, I find myself in the odd situation of being asked to defend positions that don't seem at odds to me with your understanding (with the exception of defiled awareness being true and valid experience, which framkly mystifies me). Not seeing how to take this further, I do suppose it is best to "call the whole thing off", at least for the time being. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49405 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > Just to be clear about this business of > You_say_'po-tey-to'_and_I_say_'po-tah-to', what I mean is that I don't > really see a substantive difference in > our positions at all, but just a difference in our expressing of those > positions. But you must see something that I don't see, and I frankly > just don't know how to respond. Thanks for explaining this, and I'm sorry that you find yourself in this position, not a happy one to be sure, and my apologies for not making myself clearer when I write. As others have pointed out, the medium we are using has its limitations, and I'm sure if we were talking face to face the conversation would proceed a lot more smoothly ;-)). Anyway, let me take this opportunity to assure you that there is not the slightest intention to pick on you or to catch you out. I will try to explain myself better in future, and perhaps make more reference to our common ground, so that any hint of this is avoided. I do value our exchanges, and hope they will continue. > Ironically, I find myself in the odd situation of being asked > to defend positions that don't seem at odds to me with your > understanding > (with the exception of defiled awareness being true and valid > experience, which > framkly mystifies me). Not seeing how to take this further, I do suppose > it is > best to "call the whole thing off", at least for the time being. ;-) Well in the circumstances, a pause in the thread may not be a bad thing. However, if you would like to follow the 'defiled awarness' issue along a little further, I would be happy to do so (I suspect there are differences of terminology there that need to be ironed out). I'm sure we can keep it light and friendly ;-)) Jon PS Sorry about the overly-brief references from your post when sending my earlier message. Your original message was at #48738 (Aug 12). 49406 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control egberdina Hi Ken, Sorry about my Nibbana blitzkrieg the other day :-). > > H: > We may actually be in agreement on this, but only if you are > using your words a bit generally. I'm thinking of a sutta like MN140, > the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta. The Buddha teaches anicca, anatta, dukkha, > based on six elements, contact, feeling and a few other tid-bits. It > is abhidhammish, but not Abhidhamma. > ------------- > > I would have thought it was pure Abhidhamma. We must be using > different definitions. > > ------------- > H: > Are you using the word Abhidhamma strictly, as in exactly what > is in the Abhidhamma, including the dreaded Katthavhatthu > (paramattha) or are you using abhidhamma as a method? > ------------ > > The word"paramattha" is nothing to be suspicious of: it is the same > as "elements" "khandhas" etc. But you have been told that a million > times. I don't know why won't you accept it. What is the difference > between the Abhidhamma found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the > Abhidhamma found in the suttas - the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, for example? > > --------------------- > H: > If the latter, we agree. If the former, you are obviously > wrong :-) > --------------------- > > :-) Before I commit myself, you will have to explain what you mean > by "abhidhamma as a method." > == What I mean by "abhidhamma as method" is simply how the Buddha teaches. Any given appearing situation can be broken down into components and relations between them. This helps clear the way for realising that all phenomena are conditioned ie they are all compounded, and there is not a controlling, unchanging essence in charge. I differentiate between "abhidhamma as method" and "Abhidhamma as book". Abhidhamma as book is an instance of abhidhamma as method. In the book, phenomena are broken down into components and relations between them. Much like in a multitude of suttas, where the same method, but with different criteria, is used. (eg 6 elements, feeling, contact, or dependent origination in various formulations. Now I shudder at the parramattha notion, perhaps mistakenly so, because it tends to suggest that the instance of the abhidhamma method as found in the Abhidhamma book is in fact the only, proper, ultimate instance of the method. Which is incorrect in my view. The very purpose of the abhidhamma method is negated if it is used to posit an ultimate reality. The method is used very well in the Suttas and the Abhidhamma if it leads to the understanding that all reality is conditioned, compounded and relational. Kind Regards Herman 49407 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 0:39am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 261- Attachment/lobha (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] There are different ways of classifying taùhå. The Visuddhimagga (XVII, 234-236) deals with hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. There are six kinds of craving for the objects experienced through the six doors, and each of these six kinds can be reckoned as threefold according to its mode of occurrence as craving for senseobjects, craving for becoming and craving for non-becoming. As regards craving for becoming, the eternity view can arise in connection with what is experienced through each of the six doors: there is the belief that these objects last. As regards the craving for non-becoming, the annihilation view can arise in connection with what is experienced through each of the six doors. In this way one can count eighteen kinds of craving. Moreover, there can be craving for “one’s own” colour or for colour outside oneself and even so with regard to the other objects, including the objects of craving for becoming and craving for non-becoming. In this way one can count thirty six kinds of craving. If one takes into account craving in the past, craving in the present and craving in the future, there are one hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. The different classifications of taùhå remind us of the fact that there are many kinds of clinging to different objects. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49408 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi Amr, Thank you for replying. --- amro_88888888 wrote: ............. > I am very glad to join that group too ...... And i hope i will learn > more about buddhism and find the answers to my questions ... > ---------------------- S: please ask any questions anytime and share your reflections. .... > ------------------------- > Thanks to James i have become a buddist ...... if its not for him I > would have never known about buddism ..... I was a muslim but now am > a secret buddhist .. thanks to James again ...... I can't be an open > buddist becouse due to muslim they have to kill me if i change my > religion ...... so am taking a very high risk .... but how James > described buddhism made it worth it for me ........ .... S: We don't need to use the words 'Buddhism' and 'Buddhist'. We can just explore the truths about our lives together. We have Christians, Jews, Sikhs and Hindus as well who follow family and cultural traditions whilst developing more understanding of the realities in life. There's no neec to change your lifestyle or be 'an open Buddhist'. Please don't take big risks. No one can change your inner understandings meanwhile. Amr, I think that the more we understand about the Truths of our lives, the easier it is to live easily and naturally according to social norms and so on. The Buddha's teachings -- the Dhamma -- are not a religion. Even whilst going to pray with other Muslims, for example, there can be more understanding and awareness of what life is at such moments -- seeing, hearing, thinking and so on. No Amr at all. .... > About Dan .... i wont get too much into it becouse he apologized so > that should solve it between them .... i was just so bothered by > it ... becouse belive it or not ... from where i come from > (Egypt) ... if he said that to someone ....... he would beat him > till he bleeds if not stab him just for saying that .... and i didnt > think it was a very buddhist thing to say ..... .... S: We often don't know each other's intentions, don't you think? Sometimes a comment may sound harsh but is actually intended to be helpful. For example, a parent may scold a child when the child is about to touch the hot cooker, but it may be intended kindly for the child's benefit. When it comes to good speech, it's not so much the words that count, so much as the good intentions that motivate them. Ah, when you have those psychic abilities you'll know Dan's way of acting kindly:-). .... >... but thank u Dan for > apologizing .... proud of u buddy :) > --------------------------- S: :) .... > > As for the question about Buddhaghosa.... > this is a differnt opinion or differnt beliefs that i wont interfere > in untill i know enough like u guys > ------------------------- S: Here is a fair summary about Buddhaghosa which James sent to us: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20434 .... > ---------------------- > thank u for the advice and for welcoming me in ur group ... and > thanks to James for intriducing me too ..... i really apreciate > it ..... i will feel free if i have any questions > -------------------------- S: Anytime. James once wrote a series of beautiful letters to some of my students who were asking some simple and honest questions. None of them were from a Buddhist background and several of them were Christians. James was really very skilful in his replies. Please go to 'Useful Posts' in the files section and scroll down to 'Children - letters to' to find a few of them which we particularly thought were helpful. .... > > I am glad that u found my english okay ..... About the kicking part > it was just me upset nothing more .... but by the way ... as u said > its a family so it has to go both side .... we tolerate and others > do so ..... we can't excuse people for hurting others and be okay > with it and say we r just a family ..... that will drive the people > who r being hurt crazy and make them hate that group or that > family ..... anyway ... thank u for welcoming me and thank u for the > sweet post ..... ... S: Your letter is very kind and forgiving too. Tolerance and patience are important qualities for us all -- no matter what our beliefs or background. I think the most important thing is to also learn that the real problems in life are 'inside' us, not the words and deeds of other people. An angry person can take anything as an insult, whereas a loving person will take anything easily and with compassion. We'll all be glad to hear more from you, Amr, but please don't change your religion or follow a path of any kind of deceit that can get you into trouble. Metta, Sarah =========== 49409 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:51am Subject: Ajahn Brahmavamso (Re: e-card from Bangkok 3) gazita2002 hello Chris, and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Chris > > Could we have some examples from suttas to illustrate your point about > 'taking the Suttas to mean exactly what they say'? In my experience, > discussing someone else's interpretation rarely leads to anything > useful, especially since we have access to most of the Tipitaka in > English trasnlation. > > Jon > > Christine Forsyth wrote: > > >So, it could be said that accidentally putting this CD into the > >player has led to considerable perturbation - and I wonder what > >others think of taking the Suttas to mean exactly what they > >say .... And has anyone else studied/followed/listened to the > >teachings of Ajahn Brahmavamso? > > > >metta > >Chris > >---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > A. Not sure what you mean about the Suttas, Chris, however I have listened - partly- to an A. Brahmavamso CD that someone gave me. I say partly bec. I chose very quickly, that I didn't want to listen to the CD as I did not agree with what I heard. Can't remember details, just remember I had some aversion to what was being said, and I've never attempted to listen again; maybe I'll have another go at it. patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 49410 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 511 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking This is a single dhamma. It is vitakka. It works as samma-sankappa as a path-factor. Like samma-ditthi there are many samma-sankappa. They may be samma-sankappa of kaama-kusala or samma-sankappa of jhaana kusala. But in case of jhaana it invloves only in 1st jhaana. When it arises at magga kaala it is called lokuttara samma-sankappa. 3. samma-vaca or right speech This is also a single dhamma. It is vaci-ducarita-viratii cetasika or simply it is samma-vaca cetasika. It arises in kaama kusala and lokuttara dhamma. It does not arise in jhaana kusala. 4. samma-kammanta or right action This is kaaya-ducarita-viratii cetasika or simply samma-kammanta cetasika. Like samma-vaca it arises in kaama kusala occasionally and it always arises in lokuttara dhamma. It does not arise in jhaana kusala. 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood This is dujiiva-viratii cetasika or samma-ajiva cetasika. It is a companion of other 2 viratii cetasikas. It arises in kaama kusala or loki kusala dhamma. It also arises in lokuttara dhamma. But it does not arise in jhaana kusala. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49411 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:38am Subject: Descriptive/Prescriptive - Metaphysical egberdina Hi all, A metaphysical view is any view that can't be falsified. For example, any view about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is metaphysical. Or, what happens after death? There is no way to disprove any assertion. Any discussion about a metaphysical topic is speculative. I find it important to establish beforehand whether a discussion is framed in speculative terms, so that I do not waste my time on it. I think that it is not outrageous to say that there are a number of people here who discuss as though the Suttas are purely descriptive. Everything is read through a particular understanding of anatta eyes, ie there is noone, therefore there is noone who can follow the Buddha's instructions or methods, therefore the Suttas are prescriptive. This is contrasted with those who discuss as though the Suttas are prescriptive. The Suttas are read as being instructions and methods which will lead to a goal. Many discussions at dsg revolve around this dynamic. I don't have a problem with that. But from here on in, I will not participate in any such discussion. Unless the view of the descriptionists is framed in such a way as to allow it to be falsified. Because the current position is purely metaphysical all discussions on this reading of anatta are pure speculation. Kind Regards and believe me, I'm quite content thank you very much :-) Herman 49412 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:51am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau Hi Tep, -------------- T: > Thank you for being kind enough to answer my questions and for the sutta excerpt about "the noble truth of the path of practice". But I am not sure why you have given the excerpt that confirms my point (that samma-samadhi is defined by the four rupa-jhanas). -------------- I did explain my reasons for giving the extract, but there seems to be a breakdown in communication. Quite seriously, I think we could be talking about two, entirely different, Eightfold-paths. -------------------- KH: > > I feel sure it is the same with samma-samadhi and the other Path > factors. They are supramundane and, therefore, they are different > from anything known in mundane consciousness. But, even so, >they can be described by likening them to mundane >realities. If you check the Mayhasatipatthana Sutta, you might agree >that all eight factors - not just samma-samadhi - are described by >likening them to mundane, everyday, phenomena. .............. Tep: > I like to make a note first that there are no jhanas in "mundane, everyday, phenomena". You have to have the other path factors as supporting conditions in order to establish samma-samadhi. Samma-sankappa means renunciation(nekkhamma) and avoiding wrong thoughts. Before you attain the first jhana you have to be "withdrawn from sensuality(kama), withdrawn from unskillful qualities (akusala dhamma)". There is nothing "mundane" here at all. --------------------- I am of the opinion that jhana was practised before the Buddha appeared in the world. After reading the above, I must ask if you share that opinion. If your answer is 'no' that might explain the breakdown in our communication. Ken H 49413 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Dear Jon - In a message dated 8/29/05 12:43:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > Just to be clear about this business of > You_say_'po-tey-to'_and_I_say_'po-tah-to', what I mean is that I don't > really see a substantive difference in > our positions at all, but just a difference in our expressing of those > positions. But you must see something that I don't see, and I frankly > just don't know how to respond. Thanks for explaining this, and I'm sorry that you find yourself in this position, not a happy one to be sure, and my apologies for not making myself clearer when I write. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank *you*, Jon. And it could as well be my fault in misreading you. I apologize for making presumptions due to my frustration. ----------------------------------------- As others have pointed out, the medium we are using has its limitations, and I'm sure if we were talking face to face the conversation would proceed a lot more smoothly ;-)). ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sure you're right. (Case in point: Herman's wonderful recent meeting with you & Sarah!) ------------------------------------------ Anyway, let me take this opportunity to assure you that there is not the slightest intention to pick on you or to catch you out. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I accept that, and I believe you without question! :-) ---------------------------------------- I will try to explain myself better in future, and perhaps make more reference to our common ground, so that any hint of this is avoided. I do value our exchanges, and hope they will continue. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! (Likewise.) --------------------------------------- > Ironically, I find myself in the odd situation of being asked > to defend positions that don't seem at odds to me with your > understanding > (with the exception of defiled awareness being true and valid > experience, which > framkly mystifies me). Not seeing how to take this further, I do suppose > it is > best to "call the whole thing off", at least for the time being. ;-) Well in the circumstances, a pause in the thread may not be a bad thing. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, just a pause. (Like the old Coca Cola advertisment: "The pause that refreshes!" ;-) ----------------------------------------- However, if you would like to follow the 'defiled awarness' issue along a little further, I would be happy to do so (I suspect there are differences of terminology there that need to be ironed out). I'm sure we can keep it light and friendly ;-)) ---------------------------------------- Howard: That sounds good to me, Jon. I suspect that the difference on this issue may be partly a matter of terminology especially as regards what we each mean by "true & valid." Perhaps you mean that "Whatever we experience is what we experience, and in that sense it couldn't be anything other than 'true & valid'," whereas I am zeroing in on the matter of perversion of perception wherein ignorance produces an experience of self when none actually exists, an experience of permanence where there is only impermanence, and an experience of satisfactoriness when, in fact, no conditioned dhammas are sources of true and lasting satisfaction. ---------------------------------------- Jon PS Sorry about the overly-brief references from your post when sending my earlier message. Your original message was at #48738 (Aug 12). --------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. Actually, I realize now that had I read your post at the website instead of from my inbox, I could have just accessed the upthread and found the original post quite easily. (I typically only access messages at the website when I'm having problems w/email.) ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49414 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H - Your reply is efficient - you were clever enough to detect the cause of our "communication breakdown", and that detection reduces our discussion down to one point - what is the jhana that concerns Tep? KenH : > > I did explain my reasons for giving the extract, but there seems to > be a breakdown in communication. Quite seriously, I think we could be talking about two, entirely different, Eightfold-paths. > > > I am of the opinion that jhana was practised before the Buddha > appeared in the world. After reading the above, I must ask if you > share that opinion. If your answer is 'no' that might explain the > breakdown in our communication. > Tep: The old jhana that had existed before the Buddha "appeared in the world" was obsolete by the Buddha's discovery < the four Noble Truths with 4 rupa-jhanas imbedded in the eighth path factor, samma- samadhi> -- the old jhana was a dumb concentration -- you should no longer care about it. Clinging to obsolete subjects is dukkha. Please read my post to Jon yesterday to get more detail about the jhanas that interest me, if my answer above is too short or not satisfactory. Respectfully, Tep 49415 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 187. Intro: as the Vis. states, there are four aspects according to which ruupa can be seen as past, future and present, namely: according to (a) extent (addhaa), (b) continuity (santati), (c) period (samaya) and (d) moment (kha.na). In this section the Vis. deals with the meaning of extent. -------- Text Vis. 187. Herein, (a) firstly, 'according to extent': in the case of a single becoming of one [living being], previous to rebirth-linking is 'past', subsequent to death is 'future', between these two is 'present'.[71] ------ N: Extent is the translation of the Pali addhaa which has the meanings of: length of space or time, period, lifetime. --------- Note 71 taken from the Tiika: 'Here when the time is delimited by death and rebirth-linking the term "extent" (addhaa) is applicable. It is made known through the Suttas in the way beginning "Was I in the past?" (M.i,8). ---- N: Someone who has unwise attention has doubts about past lives and future lives and also of his present life. He engages in different kinds of wrong views. --------- Text Tiika: for the past state is likewise mentioned as "extent" in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta too in the way beginning "He does not follow what is past (the past extent)" (M.iii,188. Sutta 131). -------- N: We read in the Expositor (p. 531, and Vis. XIII, 114): ------- Text Tiika: But when it is delimited in the ultimate sense as in the Addhaaniruttipatha Sutta thus, "Bhikkhus, there are three extents, the past extent, the future extent, and the present extent" (Iti.53), then it is appropriate as delimited by moment. Herein, the existingness of the present is stated thus, "Bhikkhus, of matter that is born ... manifested, it is said that 'It exists'" (S.iii,72), and pastness and futureness are respectively called before and after that' (Pm.496). ------- N: This sutta (S. III, § 62, Mode of reckoning) states the same for the other khandhas. The Tiika to Vis. 187 adds that extent, addhaa can also be used in the ultimate sense (paramatthato) with the meaning of moment (kha.na). The Diigha Nikaaya, Sangiiti Sutta, the threes, XXIV, states: The word addhaa, translated as period, is used here. The Co. to this passage explains that there is the Suttanta method and the Abhidhamma method of explanation. In the Suttanta method past, future and present periods are used in conventional sense, as lifespan. In the Abhidhamma method, addhaa is used in the sense of moment. -------- The Tiika to the Vis. 187 adds that in other suttas addhaa means most of the time the lifespan limited by birth and death. ----------- The ŒDispeller of Delusion¹(I, p. 7) also refers to the the two methods of explanation. It states with regard to the Suttanta method: This passage reminds us of the countless lives in the cycle of birth and death. Our present life becomes past life in a short while, it does not last long, but after that there are countless more lives. Our life now consists of infinitely brief moments that arise and pass away extremely fast. If we remember this we are motivated not to waste our life away with useless things, but to develop understanding of the present dhamma. As the Bhaddekaratta Sutta exhorts us, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, but cultivate insight of the present dhamma. ****** Nina. 49416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sila. nilovg Hi Phil, op 28-08-2005 01:41 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > I've wondered why you use "tender" insight. Becaue it is just > being born, is fragile, easy to be swept away in the sea of > concepts? ------ N: The Visuddhimagga and the Commentaries use this term for the first three stages of insight, since these are beginning stages. The enumeration of stages is somewhat different in different texts. The Path of Discrimination that belongs to the Khuddaka Nikaaya, mentions in Ch IV, understanding embracing conditions (second stage of tender insight) and in Ch 5 the third stage of tender insight, sammasana ñaa.na. This stage begins to see impermanence, but not as precise yet as the first stage of principal insight that is subsequent to this. The first stage of tender insight is already difficult for us. We keep on confusing nama and rupa, really not occasionally. By this I do not mean theoretically. It is essential to realize what we do not know. We keep on taking seeing and visible object together, whereas they are distinct: seeing is pure nama, not mixed with rupa and visible object does not know anything. Our understanding is vague, not precise. Hardness appears, but we confuse it with the experience of hardness or with bodily feeling. I was at the dentist and extreme heat was experienced when different molds were made of hot clay. Lots of pressure too. If we are too keen and impatient to directly understand dhammas, there is no sati. Best to let sati perform its task in its own time, not trying to interfere with it, but not interfering may be difficult. We would like to be actively engaged it seems to go against our nature. What do you think about this? No hurry to answer, I would rather you make money for your journey to Thailand. Nina. 49417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control nilovg Hi Herman, op 28-08-2005 01:48 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > I have written before about not understanding a/kusala. I do not want > to understand it either, you see. ------ N: Yes, I know that for along time you have your doubts about kusala and akusala. But I also know that you read suttas. Obviously you find this beneficial. Kusala is beneficial, it does not harm yourself nor anyone else. This is also in the suttas. You may then doubt: what is harmful. When there is doubt the citta with delusion is the forerunner. But there is also kusala citta with understanding that can be the forerunner, at different moments. Sati knows: this is beneficial, this is not. We read in the questions of King Milinda, that Nagasena says about sati as keeping up or acquiring (upaganhanaa): The beginning is association with noble friends, listening and considering. We have read in the sutta about drawing near and listening. We also read about weighing things up. One may doubt: how do I know who is a noble friend? Doubts may continue and one will never know. When sati and paññaa arise it is discerned what is kusala, what is akusala, for that moment. I underline: for that moment. ------- H: Because I understand that anyone > that lives in the world of a/kusala is damned. Damned by their own > judgments of what is wholesome and not. Once the mind makes a judgment > of "this is good, that is bad" that is how the world, whether internal > or external must appear from then on. We do inherit our own judgments, > all day long. The ending of akusala is not in perfecting kusala, it is > in the ending of judgment. ------ N:The ending of akusala is by understanding things as they really are. Paññaa can eradicate all akusala without remainder. But it has to be developed from now on. Paññaa can become the forerunner! Nina. 49418 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child nilovg Hi Phil and Herman, op 28-08-2005 02:14 schreef Philip op philco777@...: quotes Herman: > > I'm pretty sure for myself that an agitated mind sees nothing > very >>> clearly. The foundation for understanding is a tranquil mind. --------- Phil: Does what I wrote to Herman hear sound correct? When our mind is > agitated, is the agitation a cetasika? Dosa, or doubt or > restlessness or soemthing? ------- N: restlessness or agitation is the translation of uddhacca cetasika, arising with each akusala citta. Indeed one does not see clearly, and it conditions the accompanying dhammas, the citta and cetasikas which all lack the calm of kusala. The meaning of uddhacca is very precise, not the same as what we mean by agitation in conventional sense which has a flavour of aversion. There is also uddhacca with subtle lobha which may be very pleasant. -------- Ph: There is nothing agitated about the citta > of seeing hearing smelling tasting touching thinking itself is > there? -------- N: The sense-cognitions are vipaakacittas, they are not akusala, thus, no restlessness. As to thinking, this is a different matter. I do not speak about the cetasika vitakka, but about thinking of a concept, any concept, event or situation. When we think about something the citta is either kusala citta or akusala citta, but mostly akusala citta. That is, in the case of thinking that does not have the objective of daana, siila or mental development. Then there is agitation, although we do not notice it. One may take for samatha what is not really samatha, one believes that one is very calm and clings to this idea. The calm feels so agreeable. Inspite of this there is agitation. Nina. 49419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cambodian Lectures, by Kh. Sujin nilovg Hi Matheesha, I am always glad to see you. op 27-08-2005 09:27 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: quotes: N: Satipatthåna is >> not thinking, it is the development of direct understanding of the >> characteristics of realities which are appearing.> > > M: I wonder if you would agree if I were to say > > Satipatthåna is > not thinking, it is the development of direct understanding of the > characteristics of realities which are appearing, ..by direct > observation and comprehension. ------- N: direct observation: this does not mean so much. Also a child observes directly. I think of the simile Sukin reminded us of recently: saññaa is compared to an innocent, ignorant child that sees a coin, a kahapana. It does not know that it is a coin with a certain value. Citta is compared to an adult who knows that it is a kahapana and paññaa to the money changer who knows everything about the kahaapana, all details, its exact value. Paññaa penetrates the true nature of the objects that are experienced. We can easily delude ourselves by taking direct observation, noting or noticing for paññaa. We believe: just hardness is observed and no thinking about it, well that must be direct awareness, hurrah! Immediately clinging arises and this is accompanied by ignorance that darkens the truth. Is that also your experience? You input is always appreciated. Nina. 49420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Hi Herman, op 29-08-2005 02:07 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > I hope you and Lodewijk are well. N: Thank you for your interest. We are all ready to go to India. ------- H: quotes: > hardness appears. Hardness and softness are r?pas which arise and then fall >> away immediately. Because of saññaa we think of different parts of the body > The idea of me / not-me is so easily substantiated by the act of touch > as you describe it. It is so easy to pay no attention to but there is > paramattha-wise, a great difference between the sensation of touching > your own leg with your finger (as you come to know them over time) and > touching someone elses leg with your finger. ------ N: The great difference comes in with the thinking, as you also suggests. But when we consider what is real: there is hardness in a rock and in a leg, just the element of earth, no difference. This teaches us not to attach important to my leg, my body. ------- H: One may come to understand that in the first example touching your leg gives rise to > the leg feeling the finger and the finger feeling the leg > simultaneously. Or you may adopt a theory that there are two rapidly > alternating sensations of touch, which I think is not very > parsimonious. ------ N: Parsimonious: O dear, Tep and I need the dictionary again ;-)) In earnest: this is all thinking, not sati sampajañña as the satipatthana sutta explains. It states about realizing the truth as to one's own body and the body of someone else, externally. But no need to think about bodies, just being aware of characteristics. Actually, when touching someone else's body, this is a means of bringing us back to the dhamma appearing now: it is only hardness, a rupa, not self. The satipatthanasutta reminds us, forgetful people as we are, all the time. There is no need to think of all the situations or different sensations you describe, besides, it makes our life very complicated. Nina. 49421 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Control ? Does Sati Know? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I am confused by this : N: > Sati knows: this is beneficial, this is not. Tep: Isn't it true that panna knows, sati remembers, and sati and panna arise together? How about citta, does it know or not? Sincerely, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > op 28-08-2005 01:48 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@g...: > (snipped) > > Sati knows: this is beneficial, this is not. > We read in the questions of King Milinda, that Nagasena says about sati as keeping up or acquiring (upaganhanaa): > categories of good qualities and their opposites, saying to himself: 'Such and such qualities are good, such are bad; such and such qualities are helpful, and such the reverse.' > Thus does the recluse make what is evil in himself to disappear, and keeps up what is good.> > 49422 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sila. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 8/29/05 9:27:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: The first stage of tender insight is already difficult for us. We keep on confusing nama and rupa, really not occasionally. By this I do not mean theoretically. It is essential to realize what we do not know. We keep on taking seeing and visible object together, whereas they are distinct: seeing is pure nama, not mixed with rupa and visible object does not know anything. ================== Here you are concentrating on that nama which is vi~n~nana/conscousness, which is fine. Indeed, visual consciousness and visual content/object are not the same, and they are certainly distinguishable provided we avoid sloppy mental activity. And not distinguishing them is a course level of ignorance. But we must also take care not to confuse distinguishablility with independence and self-existence. The first of these two dhammas, visual consciousness, is the experiential presence (or knowing) of the second, and the second is the content/object of the first. And I think it is important to recognize that they are mutually dependent and co-occurring. There is no visual content without visual conciousness, and no visual consciousness without visual content. I believe it is just as important for us to be aware of mutual conditionality as it is to be aware of distinguishability. Without recognition of the mutual support of knowing and known, there is the tendency to reify each, separating them in our thoughts as independent, and self-existent entities. The subjective reification of vi~n~nana can lead to Sati's error. The objective reification of sights, sensations, etc can lead to a pluralistic, atomized view of separate, self-existent entities. Each of these arises from losing sight of conditionality, the heart (imo) of the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49423 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sila. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina & Phil - In a message dated 8/29/05 10:30:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: And not distinguishing them is a course level of ignorance. ======================== The word 'course', of course ;-), should have been 'coarse'. Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49424 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:50am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation...) A Correction! buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon and all - There is a typo in my message to Jon, concerning sama-samadhi and rupa-jhana. > Why? My point has been that the Buddha only taught his monks one > kind of jhanas (4 or 5 rupa- and arupa-jhanas) and that the four arupa > jhanas were defined by him as the samma-samadhi in DN 22 and > consistently throughout the Sutta Pitaka, regardless of whether the > discourse was about a samatha kamatthana or vipassana bhavana. The word 'arupa' should be corrected to be 'rupa', and after the correction the sentence should read : ... and that the four rupa-jhanas were defined by him as the samma-samadhi in DN 22 .... Thank you. Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Jon (KenH, Evan, Phil, Htoo and all Friends) - > > Thank you very much, Jon, for not forgeting about our unfinished > discussion. > 49425 From: "frank" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:34am Subject: dhamma soup for the contented dhamma_service 'Having few wants himself, he gives talks to the monks on fewness of wants. Contented himself, he gives talks to the monks on contentment. Secluded himself, he gives talks to the monks on seclusion. Unentangled himself, he gives talks to the monks on non-entanglement. [excerpt from m24] 49426 From: nina Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:22am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Dear Friends, People should not select the object of mindfulness, because then there is clinging to an idea of self who can select such an object. Nobody can direct sati to a particular object, it is sati itself which is aware of such or such object. Sati can be aware of what appears through the eyes or of seeing at this moment when there is seeing. At such a moment there is not Mindfulness of Body. There can be Mindfulness of Dhammas or Mindfulness of Citta, depending on conditions. There is no method which tells one to do particular things in order to have Mindfulness of Body, of Feeling, of Citta or of Dhammas. There is no method at all to be followed. The only way to develop satipatthåna is to gradually understand the realities which are appearing. Sati can be aware of whatever reality is appearing. For example, when there is seeing, there may be awareness of feeling. When there is awareness of the characteristic of feeling, there is at that moment not Mindfulness of Body or Mindfulness of Citta. The Påli term used in this context is vedanånupassanå satipatthåna, meaning: consideration or observation of feeling. This shows that paññå develops by being mindful, by considering the characteristics of realities. If people never are aware of the characteristic of feeling, they will continue to take feeling for self. ***** Nina. 49427 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/29/05 2:23:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Friends, People should not select the object of mindfulness, because then there is clinging to an idea of self who can select such an object. ======================= Not at all to be flippant, but to make a point that I think has validity: When attending a Dhamma talk by, say, Khun Sujin, should one not direct attention to her talk because then there is clinging to an idea of self who can do that? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49428 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion mlnease Hi Andrew, Sorry for the delay, I've been out of town-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects liable to cause delusion > I think the English translation "objects liable to cause delusion" > has a connotation that there is some 'delusion' characteristic in the > object itself which, as you say, is not correct. An example of the > dangers of trying to read the suttas at face value and without > reference to explanatory material and the overall 'big picture'? So it seems to me. As others have pointed out recently, 'desirable' e.g. refers to what merchants et al. would take for desirable. This is obviously very conventional, referring to concepts. To think of 'desirability' in this case as a paramattha dhamma--a facet of 'reality'--would be a mistake in my opinion--it's just an expression for trying to explain kamma on a conventional level, I think. This is why I think it's so important to distinguish between 'conventional' (vohaara) and 'ultimate' (paramattha) modes of expression in the texts. mike 49429 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. Talking about a self? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Larry, Phil, Howard) - I am interested in the last passage quoted from the Dispeller of Delusion, but am even more interested in your comment that follows it. Nina: The Dispeller of Delusion¹(I, p. 7) also refers to the the two methods of explanation. It states with regard to the Suttanta method: Tep: This commentator assumes that the present, past and future lives of each person are defined only by three materialities that correspond to the three periods, not dependent on the number of existences. Therefore, there could be a great many existences in the past and a great many existences in the future, but the assumption is that there is only one materiality in the past and only one materiality in the future. Yet, it assumes that "the materiality which occurs between death and rebirth is called present", although there is only one existence!! What is the reason for such strange assumption? Further, why is there no mentality involved at all? Nina: This passage reminds us of the countless lives in the cycle of birth and death. Our present life becomes past life in a short while, it does not last long, but after that there are countless more lives. Our life now consists of infinitely brief moments that arise and pass away extremely fast. If we remember this we are motivated not to waste our life away with useless things, but to develop understanding of the present dhamma. As the Bhaddekaratta Sutta exhorts us, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, but cultivate insight of the present dhamma. Tep: Your comment sounds to me like a story of self, although I agree with your suggestion that we should only cultivate insight of the present dhamma. You say "our present life", when referring to one particular life unit in this string of many many lives. Is one life a self ? Or is the whole spectrum of "countless lives" a self? Whose life? Whose countless lives? Whose cycle of birth and death? No, I am not talking about "a soul" that "travels" from one life to the next. [The closest meaning of self from the Macmillan Dictionary is " one's own person as distinguished from all other ".] You cannot convince anyone, I think, by saying that there is "no self" in the above comment, because if the present life unit represents a clearly defined person (Nina, Tep, Howard, James, etc.) and each and every unit of the individual's string of countless lives does not belong to anyone else, then there is no other way but to admit there is a self (at least according to the Macmillan). "Bhikkhus, of matter that is born ...manifested, it is said that 'It exists' " (S.iii,72) Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 187. > 49430 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Fathoming the Teacher’s Dispensation buddhistmedi... Hi, all - "For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, the Teacher's Dispensation is nourishing and refreshing. "For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, it is proper that he conduct himself thus: `Willingly, let only my skin, sinews and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence.' "For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, one of two fruits may be expected: either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non- return." Majjhima Nikaya 70:27 (Kitagiri Sutta) Warm regards, Tep ========= 49431 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: How to detect a problem child philofillet Hi Herman You said I hit it on the head with the following. > > whatever other way the Buddha found to teach about it. There is > > nothing but nama and rupa, the things we spend our precious lives > > fretting about don't actually exist. I find this hugely liberating. > > But it could just be an escape mechanism or something. > > > > Especially the last line. I see Abhidhamma (the book) as diversional > therapy par excellence. The Buddha teaches suffering and the end of > suffering through the extinction of the bullshit mind. The Abhidhamma > then sets out to gather and probe and disect and study and catalogue > all the bullshit the mind produces. > > Further proof, no doubt, that in any bullshit there is only bullshit. First of all, I will say that seeing studying Dhamma can be an escape mechanism, and is at times, when one's study is rooted in lobha. But it's a way of liberation when approached with right understanding. In my case it is usually the former. And I am not the only one. There are moments of right understanding, and tons of lobha. As for abhidhamma just adding to the bs the mind accumulates by categorizing it, there is that danger. If one just studied and memorized and listed and quoted and so on. But right understanding liberates us from that error. Acharn Sujin is very helpful in this department because she is always, always always urging us back to the present moment. Yes, she wrote a book surveying the paramattha dhammas. Is that contradictory. Could be, so she always urges us back to the present moment. And there is always the emphasis on understanding that we understand what we understand, not what we want to understand. There is no way for us to understand nearly as much as the Buddha understood. Many people don't want to accept this, so they latch on to the teaching and make it their own prematurely, interpreting it in ways that fit with their worldviews. And that is when Dhamma becomes bs. > There is conventional bullshit and absolute bullshit. But it is only > diversion to flip-flop between conventional bullshit and absolute > bullshit. No Herman, see, this is wrong. You are still outside the Dhamma gates if you believe this. Again I urge you (apparently in vain) to read the Buddha's suttas and reflect on them. There is no need to study Abhidhamma if you have doubts - just study suttas. Abhidhamma helps us understood suttas, but even without Abhidhamma you will see by reading suttas that the point of Dhamma is to find liberation by seeing that reality is in moments of seeing, hearing etc. It's in the dhatus (elements) it's in the ayatanas (sense bases) and in the khandas. This is basic Dhamma. If you read smayutta nikaya you will probably stop discriminting between suttas and abhidhamma, because it is all about the same paramattha dhammas. But I've told you this so often! But yes, come to think of it, is diversion if one believes one's understanding is developed enough to understand the difference between conventional truth and paramattha dhammas so easily. This understanding is fleeting and not for the beginner. Again, Acharn Sujin helps us get away from unrealistic expecations. But reading the Buddha's second and third discourses do as well. The world is burning through the sense doors, burning with moha, lobha and dosa and there is no self that can make things work the way we would like to. > What actual liberation is there in climbing out of the > sewerage pit, to have a subtle bullshit sandwich and then dive back in > again (no splashing, please :-) .? No liberation yet in studuing paramattha dhammas in suttas and abhidhamma, but I think it is a necessary condition for eventual understanding. But I see your point. I imagine there are some people who get caught up in memorizing Dhamma as an end in itself. All that matters is what is happening at this moment. So yes, a lot of bs (words and ideas and views not rooted in reality) when we talk and write about Dhamma. But can be helpful bs in the long run. Phil. 49432 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. gazita2002 hello Nina, thank you heaps for the energy you have for this Vis thread. I'm sure without the commentaries it would be almost impossible for me to understand. I have a question: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 187. > > Intro: as the Vis. states, there are four aspects according to which ruupa > can be seen as past, future and present, namely: according to (a) extent > (addhaa), (b) continuity (santati), (c) period (samaya) and (d) moment > (kha.na). > In this section the Vis. deals with the meaning of extent. > -------- ....snipped..... And from death [onwards] the materiality producible in future > existences, whether produced in the immediately next existence or at the end > of a hundred thousand ko.tis of aeons, is all called future. The materiality > which occurs between death and rebirth is called present. A. probably a typo, as this last sentence has me a little puzzled. Should it read 'bet. rebirth and death is called present'.? if not, then could you give more explanation on this please Nina. > This passage reminds us of the countless lives in the cycle of birth and > death. Our present life becomes past life in a short while, it does not last > long, but after that there are countless more lives. > Our life now consists of infinitely brief moments that arise and pass away > extremely fast. If we remember this we are motivated not to waste our life > away with useless things, but to develop understanding of the present > dhamma. As the Bhaddekaratta Sutta exhorts us, we should not follow after > the past nor desire for the future, but cultivate insight of the present > dhamma. > > ****** > Nina. A. very thought-provoking and sobering reading, thanx again Nina. patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 49433 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Howard & Nina, > People should not select the object of mindfulness, because then > there is clinging to an idea of self who can select such an object. > Not at all to be flippant, but to make a point that I think has > validity: When attending a Dhamma talk by, say, Khun Sujin, should > one not direct attention to her talk because then there is clinging > to an idea of self who can do that? Amazing, isn't it? While I appreciate Khun Sujin for sharing the Abhidhamma with the world, I think she is totally out of touch with The Great Frames of Reference. Regards, Swee Boon 49434 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious philofillet Hi Tep > I am ready now to respond to your message #49363. The main points > you made are numbered 1 to 7. Forgive me if my answers and the > serious tone may imply too much confidence (that I don't have). I only > respond to you from my understanding of the Teachings. Please > advise me if you find errors or wrong views. Thanks for your typically diligent, well-thought out response. You approach Dhamma study with a thoroughness and courtesy that make it difficult to pull out my usual "people's dhamma study is rooted in dosa and moha" line! Also sorry, but I can't return the diligence, because I am kind of popping into DSG every few days so can't maintain threads. I will just add a couple of thoughts and leave the last word to you or anyone else. > > > 1. Phil: If there is mental development, why is it necessary to have the > idea of practice. If there is no mental development, what good > will "practice" do? > > Tep: Patipatti means "way, method, practice, conduct" [PTS]. Sikkha > means "study, training, discipline". Anyone who trains with the three > sikkha(see below) has a clear pupose of becoming free from cankers > by practicing the Eightfold path (sila, samadhi, panna). But we can't decide to have patipatti, surely. There has to be the solid theoretical background (pariyati?) first. And I think this pariyati doesn't just refer to understanding at the book level, but having a more deeply rooted understanding. I don't know in what way, exactly. It could have to do with saccinanna (sp?), the first round of the four noble truths, an understanding which must be firmly established before any direct understanding can arise. There are so many teachers who offer patipatti to their students, but I wonder if it is something that can be received by someone who doesn't have understanding yet. It doesn't make sense to me. When there are conditions for it, understanding for it, then patipatti can arise. That makes more sense to me. Otherise there will only be more lobha and moha. I'm sorry if I sound like a brick wall, especially when you've put so much effort into your response. > Therefore, with a real practice of the Dhamma there will always be > development in the eightfold path(magga). The higher mentality and > higher wisdom are trained by samatha-vipassana bhavana. Based on > the Buddha's Teachings, it is clear that mental development is not > possible without conscientious practice of the Eightfold path. And the Eightfold path does not emerge from cittas rooted in moha and lobha. We read about the path and want to have it. Too soon, way too soon, but we want it now, in this lifetime. I use "we" very loosely. "technique-ism." > > Tep: If you really feel negative about the word "intention" we can > replace it with conviction (saddha) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the > ariya puggala (like the great Arahants Sariputta, Ananda, > Moggallana, ... and Ariya Savakas such as Luangpu Dun, for > example). Indeed, with great saddha in the Triple-gem plus training in > sila we'll be endowed with the four factors of stream-entry. We will have > a right view that protects against the "lobha and unwholesome belief in > rites and rituals" as you put it. Please read my DSG message # 49386 > for more detail on right view. This right view will set one free from the > three fetters. As you may know with my past exchanges with Herman, I appreciate the importance of saddha. But of course it arises beyond our control. This is so clear in the anatta sutta. There are moments of saddha, certainly. And they are very valuable. Saddha is not a constant that we can have whenever we want to as a way of purifying our approach to Dhamma. It arises due to its own conditions, between countless moments of lobha, dosa and moha. Since the Buddha taught that there is no way to make desired mental states arise (anatta sutta) and since the Buddha taught that the world is burning through the sense doors with lobha, dosa and moha ("Burning" sutta) I tend to assume that everyone who talks about Dhamma practice is operating in lobha, seeking escape mechanisms. So rather than assuming that everyone is wise until proven foolish, I see it the other way around. I don't mean that in a rude way. I just see it as a reflection of the Buddha's second and third discourses. This is confirmed the deeper we go into suttas and abhidhamma, I think. It is sobering. It will take a long, long time. But it is possible moment by moment to begin to eradicate defilements and cultilvate kusala, so no need for us to feel despair. > Tep: With so much lobha arising (to get fast results, to be wiser, to be > free from dukkha) then we will need to contemplate the impermanence > of conditioned dhammas, i.e. aniccanupassana, and learn to let go > rather than attach to sankhara dhamma. It is not easy and this is the > training called adhipanna sikkha (as discussed above). Another > powerful way to slowly but surely melt down "lustful, hungering, greedy > tendencies" is through Indriya-samvara sila (as discussed in Kundaliya > Sutta) that covers the adhisila sikkha. All trainings are not easy and not > meant for people with weak conviction in the Triple-gem. Also not for people with limited understanding and a lot of lobha. So kind of a catch 22. The harder we try to get rid of lobha, the more lobha we will have. We need patience, and appreciation of the importance of understanding moments of understanding alobha when they arise. > > I don't know how to directly develop the direct "right understanding" that > leads to the path without the 3 sikkha. I don't know a fast way (like > preparing a hamburger ^_*) that can get me the wonderful right > understanding of the lokuttara kind that Jon, Sarah, Nina, and Ken H > (among several other DSG members) have be theorizing about, but so > far have not been able to produce any result. Do you? Nobody does. as Acharn Sujin put in one talk "the short cut is lobha." I must say that I never think about lokuttara nor have any expectations for lokuttara in this lifetime. My field of understanding is much less refined than that! But that is me, not you, or anyone else here. I don't know how much understand Tep has, or anyone has. Right understanding cannot be demonstrated by words (thought wrong understanding can be revealed - please let me know whenever I reveal it) Right understanding rises and falls away, it can't really be proven in words, I'd say. So a lot of the writing we do at DSG is dust in the wind, because the understanding cannot be communicated, not really. But still helpful bhavana to chew things out. Thank you for reminding me about the 3 sikkhas. > > 4. Phil: Turning to the teaching from Luang Po (sorry if I mispelled that) > > Tep: Let's make sure we both understand Luangpu's teaching the > same way. First, he warns that one must start with a calm mind > otherwise no result may be expected. That's the big problem. People misunderstand calm. Sitting on a cushion in a quiet room and feeling calm is surely not the calm Lyangpu is talking about, but that's what people think it is. They don't see that it is just attachment to pleasant feeling. If there is calm, we can have calm. We can't have calm because we decide to have it to further our patipatti. There is calm with every moment of kusala, even if it is while being jostled in a crowded train, or amidst a series of lustful thoughts that are seen with right understanding. Calm arises, it isn't laid in place by the busy mind that wants to be calm. > 5. Phil: But for those without understanding (such as me) and a lot of > desire for results (such as me) this would be a counterproductive > teaching because it is like a bird trying to teach a fish how to fly. If the > fish had wings to fly (panna) the fish would fly, but if the fish doesn't have > the wings, he will just beat his fins (?) and think that he is developing > wings, but in fact is only making his fins stronger and becoming more > like a fish, not more like a bird. > > Tep: There are no fish or birds here, only nama-rupas that can learn > the Dhamma and be trained in the 3 sikkha. Yes, thanks Tep. Only nama and rupa. Thanks for the reminder. It was a silly metaphor off the top of my head. It is natural for us to think of wise people and foolish people and greedy people, but there are no such thing, only nama and rupa. > > 6. Phil: I think it's interesting that in the discourses we don't find promises > using "will" in the way it is used above. (eg "when the heart sees > this it will grow tired of....") Instead, the Buddha (and his translator) uses > the present tense, the stative, which is used to described states, > habitual actions. > > Tep: You have to read the Thai version of the Suttas! So it depends on > who the translators are. Yes, I wish I could read Pali. (I don't see why the Thai translations would be any more reliable than Bhikkhu Bodhi's) But as someone who does translation as a hobby (Japanese to English) I find it hard to believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi would botch such a key point. Suttas (at least in Samyutta Nikaya) are in the stative, the present tense. If this is not the case in Pali, I would like to know. > > It is important to notice that Luangpu guarantees that "weariness of the > vanities of the world, disinterest and a lessening of desire will > develop". He guarantees those only for people who have unusually > strong saddha and viriya in practicing the Eightfold path: they will > develop mindfulness and thorough comprehension in nama and rupa > in the present moment. > > 7. Phil: So what we have here is more like a description of what arises > through a monk (an ariyan, at that) with understanding rather than a > prediction of the way understanding will arise for a person who doesn't > have understanding to begin with. I think the latter is attractive for us, of > course, but I think the former is more helpful in the long run. We have > such a long way to go. I think understanding how far we are from the > goal is in itself a very helpful kind of understanding, a necessary > understanding. > > Tep: I don't think so, Phil. What makes the Buddha's Teachings > wonderful is that much of what he taught is provable by a person with > strong saddha in the Triple-gem and who has trained in adhisila- > sikkha. Again, we know that saddha without wisdom is not helpful. With adhicitta sikkha and adhipanna (e.g. in Satipatthana and > Bojjhanga) he will surely establish the eight path factors in him. > Remember that at the end of Mahasatipatthana Sutta there is a > guarantee that it will be no more than 7 years for anyone who follows > that sutta to attain at least the state of non-returner? We can test > Luangpu's words too by training(sikkha) according to his "instructions". I thought it was 7 days. Thank you again, Tep. I am just talking from where I am at, which is lobha, dosa and moha galore. I don't know where you're at or where anyone else is at. But I assume that I have a lot of company! I will have to drop it at that and let you or anyone else have the last word, Tep. I'm sorry I can't be the kind of poster who maintains threads and continues dialogues but I just don't have time! :( Phil ps sorry as always for any typos. 49435 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:17pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) philofillet Hi Amr I just want to welcome you to the group, a little late but welcome! Any friend of James is a friend of mine. We disagree with just about everything when it comes to Dhamma, but he is an imporant friend and has helped me a lot on some personal issues. >> for no reason ... and u said u wanted to slam him .... ohhh brother > such a buddist .... thinking about that is against buddism ..... if i > was in control of this group i would have kicked u out my self for > thinking of such violent thoughts ...... As Sarah was saying the other day, Dan meant that in a teasing way, but what you said reminded me of my wife because when I have an outburst of anger she says "some Buddhist you are!" or something like that, but Buddhism is not about always being peaceful and calm, though that will probably happen more and more as our understanding deevelops. The most important thing is understanding ourselves, understanding the way we've accumulated ignorance, greed and hatred (called moha, lobha and dosa, the three unwholesome roots) for countless lifetimes. We will lose control at times to lust and anger, do foolish things - that doesn't make us any less Buddhist. Maybe in other religions such as Christianity or Islam this is not true. We sin, we go against God, against Allah. But it's not like this with Dhamma. The Buddha helps us to understand ourselves better, the wholesome and the unwholesome, with compassion and not harsh judgement. (Yes, it's true, our sins can lead to a rebirth in hell realms, but that is the way kamma works, not the Buddha sending us to hell.) and another thing that bugs > me so much and make me angry ...... do u know buddagosa .... where u > there ...... was he ur highschool mate ...... what do u know about > him ..... am sorry if i sound bad in that post ... but man u sound > like the worest buddhist i have ever seen ..... by the way am a > beggining buddhist ..... am Egyptian You were talking the other day about how dangerous it is for you to seem to reject Islam. I think you said that. Remember, in reality, there is no Islam, no Egypt, no America, and the people who judge or condemn you don't exist in ultimate reality, so don't let them hurt you. When we get deeper and deeper we will see that there is nothing but mental factors (nama) and material (rupa) rising and falling in a conditioned way. Alas, no Amr and no James either. Not really. But understanding the Buddha's teaching helps us to be Amr and James and Phil (we have to be because we are not enlightened yet) in a more wholesome way, gradually. We can let go of the things that bug us or cause us fear and grief, and have more loving kindness and compassion and understanding. But it's a very gradual process. Wishing you lots of happy times with James in Egypt, Amr. It must be fun to hang around with him. love Phil 49436 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. philofillet Hi Swee Boon, Howard, Nina and all > > People should not select the object of mindfulness, because then > > there is clinging to an idea of self who can select such an object. > > > Not at all to be flippant, but to make a point that I think has > > validity: When attending a Dhamma talk by, say, Khun Sujin, should > > one not direct attention to her talk because then there is clinging > > to an idea of self who can do that? > > Amazing, isn't it? > > While I appreciate Khun Sujin for sharing the Abhidhamma with the > world, I think she is totally out of touch with The Great Frames of > Reference. Not so amazing, really. If we go to a Dhamma talk of course there can be a lot of lobha at work, self trying to dig every ounce of meaning out of it. There are all those moments of moha when the mind blanks out and stops listening and thinks about what's for lunch or whatever. Dosa when someone says something that we disagree with. And then moments when understanding and attention arise. A few kusala moments within a two hour talk or whatever. Just like daily life. Only a foolish person thinks "if I concentrate on this talk, I will ahve understanding now." Alas, when people without understanding try to cultivate sati intentionally, thinking if I sit and concentrate I will have sati, that is what they're doing. It's the "if I do X there will be Y" thinking that we have to be careful about, I think..(that's something I heard from Jon, very helpful.) Phil 49437 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:34pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. Talking about a self? gazita2002 hello Tep, Nina and other friends, Tep, your comments have possibly cleared up my query in a previous post I made to this thread. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Nina (Larry, Phil, Howard) - > > I am interested in the last passage quoted from the Dispeller of > Delusion, but am even more interested in your comment that follows it. > > Nina: The Dispeller of Delusion¹(I, p. 7) also refers to the the two > methods of explanation. It states with regard to the Suttanta method: > > existences, whether produced in the immediately preceding existence > or at a distance of a hundred thousand ko.tis [100.000 or 10. 000,000] of > aeons (kappa), is all called past. And from death [onwards] the > materiality producible in future existences, whether produced in the > immediately next existence or at the end of a hundred thousand ko.tis > of aeons, is all called future. The materiality which occurs between > death and rebirth is called present.> > > Tep: This commentator assumes that the present, past and future lives > of each person are defined only by three materialities that correspond > to the three periods, not dependent on the number of existences. > Therefore, there could be a great many existences in the past and a > great many existences in the future, but the assumption is that there is > only one materiality in the past and only one materiality in the future. > Yet, it assumes that "the materiality which occurs between death and > rebirth is called present", although there is only one existence!! A. I thought that 'death and rebirth' should have been reversed, but now I'm thinking that its correct in the original state. is it talking about the rupa that arises at the moment of rebirth consciousness and bec the emphasis is past, future and present, then its not necessary and in fact impossible, to count those rupas which arise with ea past rebirth consciousness [include future here]??? Therefore it is grouped as 'past/future'. Sorry Tep, I have snipped your other comments as I think it was addressed to Nina specifically, and it was just this particular aspect that I wanted to reply to. Cheers patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 49438 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:03pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. philofillet Hi again I forgot the NOW. It's the wanting understanding now that is dangerous, but a natural thing for us to do because of all the lobha and moha that we've accumulated > It's the "if I do X there will > be Y NOW" thinking that we have to be careful about, I think..(that's > something I heard from Jon, very helpful.) BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to concentrate on an object, there is self concentrating on the object. That seems pretty undeniable. If concentration doesn't arise due to conditions, how can it be kusala? So perhaps one could say that the Buddha's teaching can be the condition that conditions us to decide to concentrate on an object? Otherwise, how could we decide to concentrate on an object without self involved. And if self is inovled, how can it be kusala? That's what I just don't get. Phil 49439 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/29/05 10:04:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to concentrate on an object, there is self concentrating on the object. ========================== But, Phil, concentrating on something is one activity out of many. Except for its usefulness for a variety of purposes, it is nothing special - just an activity. So, accordingly, one should say that to decide to do anything at all, there is self doing that thing. Does this mean that one should never decide to do things? Never decide to take proper action? Never decide to study Dhamma? Never decide to pay more attention to one's responsibility, or to be more thoughtful? Should we throw out deciding entirely because there might well be a sense of self in doing so? I suppose you understand that my answers to these rhetorical questions are, in every case, "no". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49440 From: connie Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. nichiconn hi, Azita ....snipped..... And from death [onwards] the materiality producible in future > existences, whether produced in the immediately next existence or at the end > of a hundred thousand ko.tis of aeons, is all called future. The materiality > which occurs between death and rebirth is called present. A. probably a typo, as this last sentence has me a little puzzled. Should it read 'bet. rebirth and death is called present'.? if not, then could you give more explanation on this please Nina. c: because it rules out the intermediate state the way it is, maybe. peace, connie 49441 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:16pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the studious buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and all) - It has been very challenging for me to persuade you. Well, this is because you already have a strong saddha in something opposite. A metaphor for this situation may be "Pushing a truck uphill.". Phil: But we can't decide to have patipatti, surely. There has to be the solid theoretical background (pariyati?) first. And I think this pariyati doesn't just refer to understanding at the book level, but having a more deeply rooted understanding. I don't know in what way, exactly. Tep: Fortunately, we don't have to decide about what to practice -- there is just one, the Eightfold Path. After we have acquired adequate book knowledge about the Dhamma, we should start applying the Eightfold path as soon as we can. Aiming for "solid theoretical background first" will take too long and is likely not possible without feedbacks from a regular practice. [Am I again trying to push a second truck uphill right now?] The "more deeply rooted understanding" only comes after seeing a real result ourselves, not through another person ['The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting one to come & see, pertinent, to be seen by the wise for themselves.' SN XI.3,Dhajagga Sutta] I knew several monks who had very fascinating (book) knowledge of the Tipitaka but later on disrobed just to get married. They did not practice enough so their saddha reamained at the book level. ---------------------------- Phil : When there are conditions for it, understanding for it, then patipatti can arise. That makes more sense to me. Otherise there will only be more lobha and moha. Tep: What are the "conditions" for patipatti to arise? How do you cause these conditions to arise if not by patipatti? Suppose these conditions never come together in time to prop up patipatti after so many years, what is your Plan B? ------------------------------- Phil: As you may know with my past exchanges with Herman, I appreciate the importance of saddha. But of course it arises beyond our control. This is so clear in the anatta sutta. Tep: I don't see it that way -- my experience has shown that the first level is the saddha in the Triple-gem, and that saddha in the Triple- gem gains more strength when the practice is getting more and more positive results. The saddha in the Triple-gem may come from studying the Tipitaka and listening to a Dhamma teacher whom you have great respect, and so on. This systematic development of saddha has nothing to do with trying to control a conditioned dhamma or creating the 'self demon' at all. By the way, what does the Anatta Sutta say about control of saddha or anything? ----------------------------- Phil: And the Eightfold path does not emerge from cittas rooted in moha and lobha. We read about the path and want to have it. Tep: Then just simply do it [follow MN 117, for example] and carefully observe results without attachment. ----------------------------- Phil: Since the Buddha taught that there is no way to make desired mental states arise (anatta sutta) and since the Buddha taught that the world is burning through the sense doors with lobha, dosa and moha ("Burning" sutta) I tend to assume that everyone who talks about Dhamma practice is operating in lobha, seeking escape mechanisms. Tep: I am sorry. I don't read the Anattalakkhana Sutta that way. And I think your conclusion that everyone is burning in lobha, "seeking escape mechanisms", is wrong. Is this what your teacher has taught? ---------------------------- Phil: But it is possible moment by moment to begin to eradicate defilements and cultilvate kusala, so no need for us to feel despair. Tep: Isn't that moment-by-moment "eradicating defilements" a practice according to the Eightfold Path? ---------------------------- >Tep: I don't know a fast way (like preparing a hamburger ^_*) that can >get me the wonderful right understanding of the lokuttara kind that Jon, >Sarah, Nina, and Ken H (among several other DSG members) have be theorizing about, but so far have not been able to produce any result. >Do you? Phil: Nobody does. as Acharn Sujin put in one talk "the short cut is lobha." I must say that I never think about lokuttara nor have any expectations for lokuttara in this lifetime. Tep: I am not taking about a short-cut either, but only about the right way according to the Buddha. In the suttas alone there were countless number of people who obtained results -- the right way. Many laypeople became at least Sotapanna. ---------------------------- Phil: I will have to drop it at that and let you or anyone else have the last word, Tep. I'm sorry I can't be the kind of poster who maintains threads and continues dialogues but I just don't have time! :( Tep: I understand what you mean, Phil. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > >> > > > Tep: Let's make sure we both understand Luangpu's teaching the > > same way. First, he warns that one must start with a calm mind > > otherwise no result may be expected. > > That's the big problem. People misunderstand calm. Sitting on a > cushion in a quiet room and feeling calm is surely not the calm > Lyangpu is talking about, but that's what people think it is. They > don't see that it is just attachment to pleasant feeling. If there > is calm, we can have calm. We can't have calm because we decide to have it to further our patipatti. There is calm with every moment of > kusala, even if it is while being jostled in a crowded train, or > amidst a series of lustful thoughts that are seen with right > understanding. Calm arises, it isn't laid in place by the busy mind > that wants to be calm. > > > > 5. Phil: But for those without understanding (such as me) and a > lot of desire for results (such as me) this would be a counterproductive teaching because it is like a bird trying to teach a fish how to fly. If the fish had wings to fly (panna) the fish would fly, but if the fish doesn't have the wings, he will just beat his fins (?) and think that he is developing wings, but in fact is only making his fins stronger and becoming more like a fish, not more like a bird. > > > > Tep: There are no fish or birds here, only nama-rupas that can > learn the Dhamma and be trained in the 3 sikkha. > > Yes, thanks Tep. Only nama and rupa. Thanks for the reminder. It > was a silly metaphor off the top of my head. It is natural for us to > think of wise people and foolish people and greedy people, but there > are no such thing, only nama and rupa. > 49442 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. lbidd2 Phil: "BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to concentrate on an object, there is self concentrating on the object." Hi Phil and Howard, I thought I would add, when there is a decision there are two things going on: prompted consciousness and natural decisive support condition. Self belief or conceit are probably involved extraneously but there is neither in samma samadhi. Natural decisive support condition is very interesting. I think it is conditioning by way of reasoning. More on this in a few months, after Vism. XIV. Larry 49443 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:43pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. Talking about a self? buddhistmedi... Hi, Azita - I am glad to read your comment. I hope that we share our thoughts more often. A: > Tep, your comments have possibly cleared up my query in a >previous post I made to this thread. >I thought that 'death and rebirth' should have been reversed, but > now I'm thinking that its correct in the original state. > Dispeller of Delusion: T: The explanation above shows that the past is counted from the birth of the present life backwards, and the present is counted forwards from the death of this life. Yes, the Dispeller of Delusion is correct. > > A.> is it talking about the rupa that arises at the moment of rebirth > consciousness and bec the emphasis is past, future and present, then its not necessary and in fact impossible, to count those rupas which arise with ea past rebirth consciousness [include future here]??? > Therefore it is grouped as 'past/future'. > T: Thank you for the thought, Azita. You are right that there are uncountable numbers of those rupas in both the past and the future. > A: Sorry Tep, I have snipped your other comments as I think it was > addressed to Nina specifically, and it was just this particular > aspect that I wanted to reply to. T: Don't mention it! The best way to share thoughts in a discussion is to select the parts we feel like discussing. So please feel free to delete anything you are not interested in. Sincerely, Tep ========== Cheers > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita. 49444 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil - > > In a message dated 8/29/05 10:04:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to concentrate > on an object, there is self concentrating on the object. > ========================== > But, Phil, concentrating on something is one activity out of many. Except > for its usefulness for a variety of purposes, it is nothing special - just an > activity. > So, accordingly, one should say that to decide to do anything at all, > there is self doing that thing. Does this mean that one should never decide to do > things? Never decide to take proper action? Never decide to study Dhamma? > Never decide to pay more attention to one's responsibility, or to be more > thoughtful? Should we throw out deciding entirely because there might well be a sense > of self in doing so? > I suppose you understand that my answers to these rhetorical questions > are, in every case, "no". Hi Howard and Phil The more, the merrier, I suppose, so I will say a few words on this. Howard, I don't know whether your rhetorical questions are an acceptance or implied denial of conditionality. Phil knows that conditionality determines if proper action etc will arise. "He" is not able to direct that arising because (ultimately) "he" doesn't exist. A quote from Van Zeyst: "And so emerges slowly the Buddha's view, that the existence of a 'will' is as much a contradiction as the existence of a mind, or of a physical substance, or of a spiritual soul. Just as thought arises through sense-contacts, so 'will' arises as an act of volition through sense-contacts and through the not-understanding (avijja) of the world of events." A. Sujin's comment is correct in that, when we deliberately decide to concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of the world of events. I see no indication that she was limiting not-understanding to just deliberate concentration. Perhaps she picked on concentration because of its central place in popular Buddhism (I went for years to Buddhist talks that basically said 'all you have to do is concentrate'). Van Zeyst: "in right thinking all contradiction will cease, and there will be immediate action. To avoid this immediate action, however, the mind introduces a slowing-down process, which is called deliberation or deliberate choice. Choice confuses the issue and causes the conflict by introducing a false second factor, while deliberation is another delaying tactic which avoids immediate action. Our difficulty, therefore, is not how to make a right choice, but how to think rightly so that there will be no choice, no deliberation, but immediate action, as a result not of desire but of full comprehensive awareness." With respect, Howard, your rhetorical questions might be read as introducing a false second factor that only reinforces not- understanding of the world of events. If so, I think you are unwittingly misinterpreting A. Sujin out of context in the way we are all prone to misinterpret the Buddha when we think we can read a sutta and know exactly what the meaning is. Howard, I get alot out of your posts (and never say so) so I hope my disagreement with or failure to understand this one doesn't give a false impression of my deep respect for you and your extensive learning. Best wishes Andrew T 49445 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:34pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Ken H (Matheesha, Phil and Jon) - > > I'd like to comment on your message #49373 to Matheesha about > paramattha dhamma "ideas" from your own perspective, > e.g. "mundane" and "supramundane" vipassanas, and right > understanding. Your key ideas are listed first, and my > comments/questions then follow. Thanks for this message, Tep. It is typical of what makes DSG such a great place: no one can babble on - the Buddha said this, the Buddha said that - without eventually being asked, "Where did the Buddha say those things?" ------------------- T: > 1. About the Causes of Right Understanding : KH: In a paramattha moment of vipassana, right understanding is the forerunner. Even though all path factors arise together, right understanding is the cause of the others to arise. Then, having arisen, they all support each other. Tep: Where have you got the idea that "right understanding is the forerunner" ? -------------------- To begin with, I could quote the Mahacattarika Sutta: "And as to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? Right thought proceeds from right understanding, right speech proceeds from right thought, right action proceeds from . . ." That is good as far as it goes, but does it apply to the Eightfold Path in the momentary sense as I have suggested? Or does it refer to something else - e.g., to dhammas from the past conditioning dhammas in the present? Someone else will have to answer that, I'm afraid. I have it firmly planted in my head that, in a moment of Path-consciousness, samma- ditthi conditions the other factors by some kind of "prior-arising" condition. Then, they all condition each other by some kind of "co- arising" condition. It used to be discussed on DSG quite regularly, but I don't recall seeing it lately. ---------------- T: > Isn't this idea contradicting with the following passage from The Visuddhimagga, page 6? Here virtue is first, concentration second, and understanding last. The Blessed One said : I,3. `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. [Vism. I, 3] ---------------- Your quote begins with, "When a wise man," and I take it to mean literally what it says: the man was wise before he became established in virtue, and before he developed Magga-citta and supramundane Right Understanding. --------------------------- T: > Are you proposing that the Paramattha principles can be used to "directly" condition the "right understanding" of the Arahant to arise without sila development and samadhi bhavana ? Is this idea theoretical or already practical and has produced real results? ---------------------------- It happens gradually by degrees. Before we can begin to develop dana sila and bhavana we need a degree of understanding. A child has to understand it is good to share and bad to be stingy; good to look after his sister and bad to hit her; good to be sensible and bad to be silly. From then on, he can continue to practise what he has understood, and understand what he has practised - increasingly, by degrees. ------------------------------ T: > 2. About When Right Understanding Occurs : KH: Not appreciating right understanding as forerunner, some people sit on a cushion or focus on walking (etc.) in order to meditate. They think right effort or right concentration comes first. But real (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise. Tep: Strong saddha in the Triple-gem and exertion (energy, viriya) are two supporting conditions for mindfulness. Strong saddha in the Triple-gem also means he knows kusala and akusala, their cause and cessation, and the path of practice that leads to established virtue. Such a person is said to be "one of right view", . ------------------------------- I didn't quite grasp the point you were making, but I assume it supported your concluding statement, which was: ----------- > For such person there is no waiting for "whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise", which may never come. > ----------- But who said anything about waiting? If the true Dhamma has been properly heard and considered there can be right understanding now. Is there? ------------------------------ T: 3. How Are Defilements Reduced and then Destroyed? KH: Moments of mundane vipassana (satipatthana) weaken the defilements, whereas moments of supramundane vipassana (magga- citta) finally eradicate them. A sotapanna is, for example, completely incapable of wrong view. Tep: Theoretically, I have no problem with that. However, nothing of that sort happens without training (sikkha) in sila, samadhi and panna. ------------------------------ Clearly, you believe something more than right understanding is required. You also believe that the "something more" does not proceed from right understanding, but rather, right understanding proceeds from it. To my mind, that is contrary to what I have read in the suttas. ------------------------------------------- T: > 4. There Is No "Doing" at the Paramattha Level KH: When, for example, we think we are chopping wood with an axe, there is the illusion of doing. but in reality there is no doing apart from dhammas - arising, performing their functions and falling away. Tep: At the atomic level the piece of wood and the wood-chopper are not "seen", so there is no wood-chopping at the atomic level. Which level is illusory - the atomic level where there are only electrons and protons, or the macro level where there are the piece of wood and the wood-chopper? ------------------------------------------- I am surprised you find that question relevant. In the Tipitaka, there is no mention of an electron and proton world. Clearly, electrons and protons belong to conventional thinking and, ultimately, they are just as illusory as wood and wood-choppers. The only world elucidated by the Buddha was the world of conditioned dhammas. ------------------------------------------- T: > 5. Sila and the Absolute (Paramattha) Sense KH: Sila is there in the absolute sense too. Every kusala citta can be classified as either dana, sila or bhavana - depending on its co- arising cetasikas. The point is; there is no doer of the sila. Tep: There is a do-er right now, but you don't see him at the Paramattha level. So, please come back down to earth from the ideal world. --------------------------------------------- I hope I have misunderstood you, but you would not be the first DSG member to believe in an eternal soul. We have had followers of Bhikkhu Thanissaro, who teaches that anatta is not real. BT says anatta is just a technique for calming the mind. Last week, you said something unnervingly similar. Quote: "I do hope that his explanation helps those who have been obsessed with no-self, not-self and the Paramattha dhamma. Indeed, anattanupassana is for the purpose of cutting the grasping after the body-mind personality, nothing else." Please, tell me I have misunderstood! ------------------ T: > 6. Meaning of Insight (vipassana?) KH: Knowledge (is) intellectual understanding of the Dhamma. Insight means : 1, putting that intellectual understanding into practice (mundane insight) and 2, full penetration of the Dhamma (supramundane insight). Tep: How do you put intellectual understanding to produce mundane insight and finally full penetration? By practicing (e.g. using Maha- satipatthana Sutta), of course. Practicing is developing. Development is heedful. ------------------ There is no self that 'practises' or 'produces insight.' This must be understood at all stages of Dhamma study. It might produce some confusing moments - "How can I practice if there is no self that can practise?" - but it is only when we understand anatta that we can progress at all. Nothing will be achieved by retaining a belief in self, however practical it may seem. Ken H 49446 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:34pm Subject: What causes defilement & Purification ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Cause of mental Defilement & Purification? Venerable Mahali once asked the Buddha: But, Venerable Sir, what is the causing condition of mental defilement ? By what reason, do beings become mentally defiled & degraded ? If, Mahali, this form, this feeling, this perception, this construction & this consciousness were exclusively suffering, immersed only in affliction, soaked solely in trouble & if it were not also sometimes soaked in pleasure, beings would not become enamoured with it. But since this form, this feeling, perception, construction & this consciousness is also occasionally pleasurable, immersed now & then in pleasure, soaked momentarily in pleasure & it is not soaked only & always in pain, beings become enamoured & enthralled with it! By being enamoured with it, they are captivated by it & obsessed with it... By being captivated by it & obsessed with it, they are defiled & degraded! This, Mahali, is the causing condition for the mental defilement of beings... By this reason, do beings become mentally defiled & detrimentally degraded! But, Venerable Sir, what is the causing condition of mental purification ? By what reason, do beings become mentally purified & released ? If, Mahali, this form, this feeling, this perception, this construction & this consciousness were exclusively pleasurable, immersed only in pleasure, soaked solely in pleasure, and if it were not also quite soaked in suffering, beings would not become disgusted with it. But because form, feeling, perception, construction & consciousness is also pain, immersed in distress, soaked in agony, and it is not soaked only in pleasure, beings are disgusted with it. Being disgusted, they experience disillusion & through this disillusion, they are mentally purified! This, Mahali, is the causing condition for the mental purification of beings... By this reason, do beings become mentally purified & happily released! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 69-71 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49447 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: On Buddhaghosa: > > I tried to do some research on the Internet for the source where I > read this information and I can't find it. I think I read it in a > pdf document and can't place the document right now. I wrote an e- > mail to a scholar monk in Sri Lanka, who's an editor for BPS, and > asked him this question. When I get a reply I will let you know. ... S: Please do. There is a detailed account in the Mahavamsa (ancient chronicle from Sri Lanka) which is partly quoted in Nanamoli's introduction to the Visuddhimagga. Also, if you're interested, I recommend B.C. Law's small book on Buddhaghosa and Malalasekera's 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon'. I don't think any of these are on line, but if there are any specific points you'd like me to check or quote, I'm happy to do so. In his introduction to the commentary on the Vinaya, Buddhaghosa himself describes how he proceeded (taken from Malalasekera's book): "In commencing this commentary - having embodied therein the 'Mahaa-Atthakathaa', without excluding any proper meaning from the decisions contained in the Mahaa-paccarii, as also in the famous Kuru.n.dii and other commentaries [S: these are the ancient Singhales commentaries to the Tipitaka which he had originally intended just to translate into Pali], and including the opinions of the Elders - I shall perform my task well. Let the young and the middle-aged and the elderly monks who entertain a proper regard for the doctrines of the Tathaagata, the Luminary of Truth, listen to my words with pleasure. The Dhamma, as well as the Vinaya, was declared by the Buddha and his sons understood it in the same sense as it was deliverd; and inasmuch as in former times they (the Sinhalese commentators) composed the commentaries without disregarding their (sons') opinions, therefore, excepting any error of transcription, everything contained therein is an authority to the learned in this Order, who respect ecclesiastical discipline. "From these commentaries, after casting off the language, condensing detailed accounts, including authoritative decisions, without overstepping any Paali idiom (I shall proceed to compose my work). And, as this commentary will be explanatory of the meanings of words belonging to the Suttas in conformity with the sense attatched to them therein, therefore ought it the more diligently to be studied." Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned a couple of times that Buddhaghosa was not himself enlightened. He may not have been an arahant, but do you have any evidence to suggest he was not an ariyan disciple (i.e sotapanna or higher)? ========== 49448 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James (& Phil), --- buddhatrue wrote: > The Metta Sutta: > > This is what should be done > By one who is skilled in goodness, <...> ... S: There is a lot we could discuss further on the Metta Sutta. I believe metta has to be developed like other wholesome qualities -- not by trying to emulate the truly wise and noble. For example, starting with the first two lines, what does it mean 'by one who is skilled in goodness'? There is lots of detail in the commentary, summarised as: "Herein those 'with skill in good', praised either in so far as they are established in the virtue that provides non-remorse, or [in so far as] they exert themselves in the 'way of suppression of defilement', [or in so far as they attain] the paths and fruitions, are 'those with skill in good' in this sense.' And those bhikkhus were of such kinds." The bhikkhus addressed were ripe for attaining the various jhanas and becoming arahants too. We should know whether there really can be universal metta right now or whether there can just be the understanding and development of metta in our daily lives as we meet and speak to people around us. .... > James: I think that this sutta pretty much speaks for itself. It is > unambiguous. One should cherish all beings: radiating kindness over > the entire world; spreading upwards to the skies, and downwards to > the depths; outwards and unbounded. AND One should sustain this > recollection. We are not talking about a few occurrances of > spontaneous metta, we are talking about a sublime abiding. .... S: A sublime abiding that has to be developed with understanding. I think this sutta is very deep indeed. Some people may sit quietly and think they are radiating kindness to the entire world and yet be annoyed by family members if they are interrupted or disturbed by traffic when they leave the temple. In this case, is it really metta? As I said before, I think we all have to find out for ourselves, but I know that much of what I used to take for being metta was simply attachment to tranquil feelings and to people around me. Metta, Sarah ========= 49449 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > In the talks I was interested to hear (Sarah mentionned it) about > the object that has fallen away still being a reality, as though > that it's been photocopied or something. There is a special > techinical word for it, an unclassifiable object or something. > Still a reality, not a concept, though it has already fallen away. > Do I have that right? ... S: yes. See 'navatabba arammana' (unclassifiable object) in U.P. Metta, Sarah ========= 49450 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, In 'THE BUDDHA AND HIS TEACHINGS' by Venerable Nārada, there is also a useful chapter on rebirth (CHAPTER 28,HOW REBIRTH TAKES PLACE)with the well-known quote from Questions of King Milinda: " "The pile of bones of (all the bodies of) one man Who has alone one aeon lived Would make a mountain's height -- So said the mighty seer." -- ITIVUT'TAKA <...> The continuity of the flux, at death, is unbroken in point of time, and there is no breach in the stream of consciousness. Rebirth takes place immediately, irrespective of the place of birth, just as an electromagnetic wave, projected into space, is immediately reproduced in a receiving radio set. Rebirth of the mental flux is also instantaneous and leaves no room whatever for any intermediate state [7] (antarabhava). Pure Buddhism does not support the belief that a spirit of the deceased person takes lodgement in some temporary state until it finds a suitable place for its "reincarnation." This question of instantaneous rebirth is well expressed in the Milinda Pañha: The King Milinda questions: "Venerable Nagasena, if somebody dies here and is reborn in the world of Brahma, and another dies here and is reborn in Kashmir, which of them would arrive first? "They would arrive at the same time. O King. "In which town were you born, O King? "In a village called Kalasi, Venerable Sir. "How far is Kalasi from here, O King? "About two hundred miles, Venerable Sir. "And how far is Kashmir from here, O King? "About twelve miles, Venerable Sir. "Now think of the village of Kalasi, O King. "I have done so, Venerable Sir. "And now think of Kashmir, O King. "It is done, Venerable Sir. "Which of these two, O King, did you think the more slowly and which the more quickly? "Both equally quickly, Venerable Sir. "Just so, O King, he who dies here and is reborn in the world of Brahma, is not reborn later than he who dies here and is reborn in Kashmir." "Give me one more simile, Venerable Sir." "What do you think, O King? Suppose two birds were flying in the air and they should settle at the same time, one upon a high and the other upon a low tree, which bird's shade would first fall upon the earth, and which bird's later?" "Both shadows would appear at the same time, not one of them earlier and the other later. [8]" The question might arise: Are the sperm and ovum cells always ready, waiting to take up the rebirth-thought? According to Buddhism, living beings are infinite in number, and so are world systems. Nor is the impregnated ovum the only route to rebirth. Earth, an almost insignificant speck in the universe, is not the only habitable plane, and humans are not the only living beings. [9] As such it is not impossible to believe that there will always be an appropriate place to receive the last thought vibrations. A point is always ready to receive the falling stone." " ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 49451 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 512 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration 6. samma-vayama or right effort This is viriya cetasika. When there is viriya one can cross the other side and viriya serves as a path-factor. There are many samma-vayama. They also arise in kaama kusala or loki kusala dhamma. They also arise in jhaana kusala. They arise in both ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana. This cetasika also arise at magga kaala or at the time when magga citta or path-consciousness arise. At that time it is called lokuttara samma-vayama. 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness This is sati cetasika. Sati arises only in beautiful consciousness or sobhana cittas. But not all sati are path-factors. There are also many samma-sati. They are kaama kusala samma-sati. Samma-sati as a path-factor arises in both ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana. When sati arises at magga kaala it is called lokuttara samma-sati and then it becomes a part of Noble eightfold Path. This sati is a cetasika when 4 satipatthaanas are being followed. That is samma-sati is a sati that arises in 4 satipatthaana and when these 4 satipatthaanas are properly and rightly followed the final result is seeing nibbana. As soon as nibbana is seen there arises samma-sati and this sati is called lokuttara samma-sati. It is a path- factor. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49452 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: e-card from Belief sukinderpal Hi Herman, Herman: > I accept that you sincerely believe all the things you are saying, and > I know too that I am not without belief about a good many things. So I > won't try and make my beliefs superior to yours, but I will try and > understand the nature of belief. Sukinder: What do you think, are there not in fact some beliefs that are more useful than others? There is an understanding behind every acceptance and rejection of beliefs, and often, no amount of reasoning can dislodge another's holding on to a particular belief. Yet I believe, ;-) that there are some beliefs which reflect the true nature of experiences which one can only deny by sheer force of delusion and craving. On the other hand, with the arising of panna, any wrong belief will be seen through and any right beliefs will be accepted with greater confidence. Do you think that all beliefs are associated with craving? Are there not some which are instead held with a degree of understanding, for example perhaps, your own belief in Nibbana? ;-) But yes, it may be good to understand the nature of belief, so let us explore one such here. You Herman, have much faith in science. In the field of `brain science' it seems that you accept the findings with little questioning or doubt, even to the point of using the information got to disprove certain interpretations of Dhamma. You do not have any first hand experience in any of the research done, but because of `faith' in the scientific method, you easily `believe'. Now the question is not that the conclusions might be any different had you done the experiments and research yourself? The method used by anyone will be according to his or her background in formal education and the result will more or less be dictated by that method. And this is not even the real problem! In the world of conventional realities, there will be almost endless theories and ideas and each will have an audience who will agree to them. Science seem to stand out in a day when wrong view reigns. All of science is built upon the reality of objects and things, in other words, concepts. It does not even have an iota of understanding of Dhammas, be it nama or rupa. Science does affect uttu niyama for sure, but it is like the blind holding a part of the elephant and coming to a conclusion about what it might be. It may use the tail as rope and even be praised for it, but only by those who lack understanding, thinking that this is leading to something useful. What is objectionable is that science professes to provide us with the knowledge and understanding of the `way things are' or moving towards this particular end. It *doesn't and never will*. But you say that you find it contradictory that some of us criticize science and yet we use the computer/internet and fly aeroplanes. I hope you now see where the criticism is directed. Had we said that we prefer witchcraft to science, then perhaps you would be right ;-). No I don't look down upon the discoveries and inventions of science. In fact I sometimes feel that it is a great boon, however this does not mean that science can dictate to me what "reality" is. Is the knowledge about Dhamma as taught in the Abhidhamma of the same nature? No I don't think so. Understood correctly, Abhidhamma is about one's moment to moment experiences now. These go to the ultimate level which because of the lack of accumulated understanding may be appreciated at this point, only on the intellectual level. It does not talk about existence of `elephants' and `rope', but about hardness, sound, feeling, seeing, anger, knowing, ignorance, thinking, and so on. A blind, deaf or normal person can each verify for himself to any corresponding level of understanding, the realities of these and this does not require `belief' in the way that science (or meditation ;-)) incites in us. The blind person will experience `hardness/softness' of the elephants trunk as much as a normal man does and their proliferation will be equally real. But science will say that only the normal person `knows' having established its own criterion for knowledge. So Herman, what do you think, is the western/eastern Abhidhammika on the same footing as one who has faith in science? I think the latter leans more strongly on the "blind" side. ;-) -------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukinder: > > But even if there are beliefs which are `not' built upon any such > > understanding but instead on faith in the Buddha or commentaries, is > > this any worse than one's reasoning based on `conventional experience' > > and/or logical deduction? What if the former has as a basis it being > > consistent with other aspects of the Teachings while the latter is `wrong > > view', hence inconsistent with the Dhamma? > > > Herman: > I think we would agree that the Tipitaka, commentaries and > sub-commentaries, and post-canonical sacred works have many words in > them. So many words, in fact, that with a little selective reading one > could find support for just about any belief. Sukinder: Yes indeed. I have always had reservations when on the list I see two people stating that they agree with one another on any point in Dhamma. Yes, it seems to me that words and even lines of reasoning are quite limited, and so often we may use the same words and come to believe that there is agreement, when in fact the basic "view" is different or even opposed. Discussions are therefore very helpful in this regard. ------------------------------------------------- Herman: So it is important to > know your own mind when reading. Because with a pre-disposed mind, one > is only going to look for and find confirmation of that > pre-disposition. That is a very circular and futile exercise, isn't > it, merely amplifying a mind to see things a particular way? Sukinder: I would say, know your own mind from moment to moment. However as far as I am concerned, if indeed this knowing is in accordance with the way things are, then one will at the same time come to trust what is written in the Tipitaka including the commentaries, more and more. ;-) Pre-dispositions can also be known for what they are. ------------------------------------------------ > Sukinder: > > And what is experience as we conventionally understand and seek to > > have? Does tasting mango, smelling ammonia, or `seeing devas' > > eradicate doubt? Are we happy to only place one position about > > existence/non existence against one another? I don't think the Buddha's > > teachings are directed towards this kind of `seeing and understanding' > > things. In fact much of our `questionings' may seem to us like `wise > > consideration' but actually be a manifestation of doubt, a real hindrance > > to the path!! This leads me to my villager/money lender example and > > your comment below. > Herman: > There is a purpose in comparing/contrasting this against that, and > arriving at scholarly wisdom. "My diversional therapy to avoid the > realisation of the First Noble Truth" is a chapter in progress for "My > Life"'s all around the globe. Sukinder: It is only with the arising of panna that anything useful be said about experiences. However when panna does arise, there is no need to compare, though this may be conditioned later on by doubt or even conceit, I think. ---------------------------------------------------- Herman: > The following is another one which hit me out of nowhere. Again I test > it. Perhaps you can help? I'd be very happy to see it torn to shreds > on a sound basis so it can be discarded. > > -The mind cannot know it's absence. The perceived unbroken continuity > of consciousness is a self-serving mental fabrication. Sukinder: Can you elaborate on this? I don't want to guess the meaning. ---------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: > I think you > > forget to make a distinction between this and the accompanying > > cetasikas. While citta experiences just the present `object', sanna marks > > it. So when the citta is accompanied by panna, this `understands' in a > > way that citta doesn't and neither does it simply mark. The > > understanding happens in a way that *more* about realities is known. > > So just as a money lender experiencing the very same coins as the > > villager and the boy, his `knowing' of it however goes `beyond' that > > which is known by citta and sanna. > Herman: > The mind is the forerunner of all delusion and all suffering. Once > this is realised, it is put to one side and given no credence. Sukinder: Are you talking about `wrong view' or are you talking about `thinking' in general? If it is the former and this is eradicated only at stream-entry, then it is not a matter of any `decision' to put anything on one side. If however you are talking about the general tendency to proliferate, there are three causes for this, ditthi, tanha and mana. But even here, it is by path factor (arahatta) and not by any `judgement' ;-) on anyone's part. In fact any idea that this can be done by a `self' will only condition all sort of other problems, particularly a solidifying of `wrong view'. ------------------------------------------------ > Herman: > Does the citta-vitthi theory allow for absence of the mind? No. It > turns Nibbana into an object to be known by, you guessed it, the mind. > Can you see a hint of self-serving there? Sukinder: Well, what is the basis for your theory of "absence of the mind" and what according to you is Nibbana? Something `self-serving there'? ;-) --------------------------------------------- >Herman: > Frank's quote is perfect. > > Luang Pu succinctly summarized: > > "No matter how much you think, you won't know. > Only when you stop thinking will you know. > But still, you have to depend on thinking so as to know." Sukinder: Is this an example of a `self serving' preconceived idea? I have seen you express such an attitude a few times before. I think it is a kind of romanticism and/or idealism. I put it together with those ideas professing the need to `develop concentration', `prior kusala states' and `conventional effort'. But I will discuss this in another post when I have time if you don't mind. Must go now. Metta, Sukinder 49453 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to detect a problem child egberdina Hi Phil, > > > There is conventional bs and absolute bs. But it is > only > > diversion to flip-flop between conventional bs and absolute > > bs. > > No Herman, see, this is wrong. You are still outside the Dhamma > gates if you believe this. Again I urge you (apparently in vain) Dear, dear Phil ( I mean that) , please do not get ahead of yourself (or see things that aren't there) . Rest assured I have devoured the SN recommendations you gave me, and rest assured that they are being regurgitated, digested and assimilated. Again and again. That those readings don't lead me to become an extension of your understanding shouldn't be a disappointment. . to > read the Buddha's suttas and reflect on them. There is no need to > study Abhidhamma if you have doubts - just study suttas. Abhidhamma > helps us understood suttas, but even without Abhidhamma you will see > by reading suttas that the point of Dhamma is to find liberation by > seeing that reality is in moments of seeing, hearing etc. It's in > the dhatus (elements) it's in the ayatanas (sense bases) and in the > khandas. This is basic Dhamma. If you read smayutta nikaya you will > probably stop discriminting between suttas and abhidhamma, because > it is all about the same paramattha dhammas. > But I've told you this so often! Liberation is Nibbana, cessation, nirodha. I won't give you suggested reading material, because we all have access to more material than we can digest. And we wil read what we will read. And understand it to mean what we want it to. You have been more than honest in times gone by to acknowledge that you are not that interested in Nibbana. That's not a problem. And I am not that interested in looking for a way to reorganise the deckchairs on the Titanic so that Noble Truth numero uno is not quite as real. Savvy? :-) > > But yes, come to think of it, is diversion if one believes one's > understanding is developed enough to understand the difference > between conventional truth and paramattha dhammas so easily. This > understanding is fleeting and not for the beginner. Again, Acharn > Sujin helps us get away from unrealistic expecations. But reading > the Buddha's second and third discourses do as well. The world is > burning through the sense doors, burning with moha, lobha and dosa > and there is no self that can make things work the way we would like > to. > > > What actual liberation is there in climbing out of the > > sewerage pit, to have a subtle bullshit sandwich and then dive > back in > > again (no splashing, please :-) .? > > No liberation yet in studuing paramattha dhammas in suttas and > abhidhamma, but I think it is a necessary condition for eventual > understanding. But I see your point. I imagine there are some people > who get caught up in memorizing Dhamma as an end in itself. > > All that matters is what is happening at this moment. So yes, a > lot of bs (words and ideas and views not rooted in reality) when we > talk and write about Dhamma. But can be helpful bs in the long run. > > Phil. > Like you, I think the present moment is vital. Kind Regards Herman 49454 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control ? Does Sati Know? nilovg Hi Tep, op 29-08-2005 15:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I am confused by this : > > N: > Sati knows: this is beneficial, this is not. > > Tep: Isn't it true that panna knows, sati remembers, and sati and > panna arise together? How about citta, does it know or not? ------- N: naama dhammas experience or know each in their own way. We can say: sati remembers what is wholesome. We can also say: it is sati that prevents us from committing akusala, this is figurative speech, using the word us. Sati knows, I am continuing with the figurative speech of the simile: a King's servant knows what is good for him and what is not. Sati can arise without paññaa but the opposite is not true. Citta knows or cognizes an object. Nina. 49455 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Hi Phil (and Howard, see end) op 30-08-2005 04:03 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > BTW, yesterday I heard Acharn Sujin say when we decide to concentrate > on an object, there is self concentrating on the object. That seems > pretty undeniable. If concentration doesn't arise due to conditions, > how can it be kusala? ------- N:All kinds of concentration are only conditioned elements. Sometimes they are akusala, sometimes kusala, sometimes neither. There is concentration with each citta. ----- Ph: So perhaps one could say that the Buddha's > teaching can be the condition that conditions us to decide to > concentrate on an object? ------ N: Add: in the wholesome way. -------- Otherwise, how could we decide to concentrate > on an object without self involved. And if self is inovled, how can it > be kusala? That's what I just don't get. ------- N: self involved: then it accompanies wrong view. It is wrong concentration. Thanks to the Buddha's teachings we can find out the truth if we are openminded. Howard wrote:< Never decide to take proper action? Never decide to study Dhamma? Never decide to pay more attention to one's responsibility, or to be more thoughtful? Should we throw out deciding entirely because there might well be a sense of self in doing so?> N: No problem here. Decision is a conditioned dhamma, and we can learn to see it as such, not just theoretically. It is adhimokkha cetasika, arising with citta. If it arises with kusala citta it is supported by all the other sobhana cetasikas that arise together. This helps us to see conditionality. Nina. 49456 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:conditionality. nilovg Hi Howard, op 29-08-2005 16:26 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: quotes: The first stage of tender insight is already difficult for us. We keep on > confusing nama and rupa, really not occasionally. By this I do not mean > theoretically. It is essential to realize what we do not know. We keep on > taking seeing and visible object together, whereas they are distinct: seeing > is pure nama, not mixed with rupa and visible object does not know anything. > ================== H: > Indeed, visual consciousness and visual content/object are not the same..., > But we must also take care not to confuse distinguishablility with > independence and self-existence. The first of these two dhammas, visual > consciousness, is the experiential presence (or knowing) of the second, and > the second is > the content/object of the first. And I think it is important to recognize that > they are mutually dependent and co-occurring. There is no visual content > without visual conciousness, and no visual consciousness without visual > content. I believe it is just as important for us to be aware of mutual conditionality > as it is to be aware of distinguishability. Without recognition of the mutual > support of knowing and known, there is the tendency to reify each, separating > them in our thoughts as independent, and self-existent entities. The > subjective reification of vi~n~nana can lead to Sati's error. The objective reification > of sights, sensations, etc can lead to a pluralistic, atomized view of > separate, self-existent entities. Each of these arises from losing sight of > conditionality, the heart (imo) of the Dhamma. ---------- N: I understand all of this, you have explained it before. It is clear to me what you mean by these dangers as to self-existent entities, reification. Before there can be any awareness, we have to listen to the Dhamma. We hear about the five khandhas: one rupa-kkhandha and four naama-kkhandhas which arise and fall away together, and are interdependent. The khandhas are past, future and present. We hear about the aayatanas: the inner aayatanas: the sense-bases (eye-base, etc) and the mind-base, including all cittas, and the outer aayatanas: the six classes of objects. There is an association, a meeting of visible object, eyebase and seeing-consciousness. This teaches us their interdependence. We hear about the elements, dhaatus: as we read in the suttas: there is the element of eye, visible object and seeing-consciousness. In the foregoing there is no question of self-existing entities. We learn to see dhamma as dhamma, that is, as not a person who exists, not a thing which exists. All we heard, learnt, considered is accumulated and can be a condition, natural strong dependence condition for sati which is also included in the khandhas, the aayatanas, the elements. When sammaa-sati arises and is aware of one object, either a naama or a ruupa, it does not mean that the understanding accumulated before because of listening is lost. Sati is aware of one object at a time and at that very moment paññaa can realized it *as* a naama, or *as* a ruupa. That means: a dhamma that is not an existing entity or a self, or belonging to a self. The first stage of insight is important, paññaa has to become precise. After that there can be the second stage of insight: understanding of nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. Conditions are seen more clearly. But the development of understanding is to be step by step. And no interference because of an idea of self which may be unnoticed. That is the greatest danger. Then we are losing sight of conditionality, the heart of the Dhamma as you rightly call it. Nina. 49457 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cambodian Lectures, conditions. nilovg Hi Howard, op 29-08-2005 20:29 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: quotes: People should not select the object of mindfulness, because then there is > clinging to an idea of self who can select such an object. > ======================= > Not at all to be flippant, but to make a point that I think has validity: > When attending a Dhamma talk by, say, Khun Sujin, should one not direct > attention to her talk because then there is clinging to an idea of self who > can do > that? ---------- N: As Phil explained, directing attention also depends on conditions. It is the hardest thing to accept that awareness is dependent on conditions, because the ego is so very big and important. Natural strong dependence condition includes the fact that whatever one has accumulated is a condition for what arises now, be it sati or forgetfulness. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us about conditions, because then there can be more understanding and this leads out of samsara eventually. Phenomena proceed according to their proper conditions, no matter whether a Buddha arises in the world or not. I quote from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha dhammas: < The Buddha respected the Dhamma he had penetrated. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Ch VI, § 2, Holding in Reverence) that the Buddha, when he shortly after his enlightenment was staying at Uruvelå, was considering to whom he could pay respect, but that he could find nobody in the world who was more accomplished than himself in morality, concentration, insight, emancipation, or knowledge of emancipation. We then read that he said: "This Dhamma then, wherein I am supremely enlightened- what if I were to live under It, paying It honour and respect!² The Buddha did not teach that those dhammas he had realized could be controlled by him. He proclaimed that even he, himself, could not cause anybody to attain the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness which experience nibbåna at the moment of enlightenment and to become liberated from dukkha. He taught that only the practice of the Dhamma is the condition for the person who practises to attain the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness which experience nibbåna at the moment of enlightenment and to become liberated from dukkha.> We have to bend our heads to the teaching of conditional relations and put it into practice. Sati and also the objects of sati that arise and appear proceed accoprding to their own conditions. No ego who could interfere. Nina. 49458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the studious nilovg Hi Phil and Tep, I read your dialogue with so much pleasure. Phil, if you have time on one of your posting days, it would be nice if you tell us which sutta of Samyutta Nikaya you are reading. Of IV, I have also the Pali commentary and could compare. Only when you have time! Nina. op 30-08-2005 02:50 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Suttas (at least in Samyutta Nikaya) are in the stative, the present > tense. If this is not the case in Pali, I would like to know. 49459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. nilovg Dear Azita ' here in the text the meaning of addhaa, life span is clarified. After the dying-consciousness there is the present lifespan and this is followed by a next lifespan which is still future but sure to come. Nina. op 30-08-2005 03:34 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > > A. I thought that 'death and rebirth' should have been reversed, but > now I'm thinking that its correct in the original state. 49460 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 512 ) egberdina Hi Htoo, I am sorry to come in on this post without addressing the subject matter. This was just a way of making sure you got to read this. I wanted you to know that somewhere in the future I may post some material in which the headings might be in numerical sequence, just like your Dhamma thread. I wanted to make sure that you knew beforehand that if it happens (gotta wait for those pesky conditions) that in no way should those headings be seen as mocking, deprecating or making any adverse comment about your series. Kind Regards Herman On 30/08/05, htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are > > 1. the stock of root (hetu) > 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) > 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) > 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) > 5. the stock of power (bala) > 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) > 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) > > 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) > > There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are > > 1. samma-ditthi or right-view > 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking > 3. samma-vaca or right speech > 4. samma-kammanta or right action > 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood > 6. samma-vayama or right effort > 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness > 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration > > 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view > 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking > 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort > 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration > > 6. samma-vayama or right effort > > This is viriya cetasika. When there is viriya one can cross the other > side and viriya serves as a path-factor. There are many samma-vayama. > They also arise in kaama kusala or loki kusala dhamma. > > They also arise in jhaana kusala. They arise in both ruupa jhaana and > aruupa jhaana. This cetasika also arise at magga kaala or at the time > when magga citta or path-consciousness arise. At that time it is > called lokuttara samma-vayama. > > 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness > > This is sati cetasika. Sati arises only in beautiful consciousness or > sobhana cittas. But not all sati are path-factors. There are also > many samma-sati. They are kaama kusala samma-sati. Samma-sati as a > path-factor arises in both ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana. > > When sati arises at magga kaala it is called lokuttara samma-sati and > then it becomes a part of Noble eightfold Path. This sati is a > cetasika when 4 satipatthaanas are being followed. > > That is samma-sati is a sati that arises in 4 satipatthaana and when > these 4 satipatthaanas are properly and rightly followed the final > result is seeing nibbana. As soon as nibbana is seen there arises > samma-sati and this sati is called lokuttara samma-sati. It is a path- > factor. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there > is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these > posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting > will also be very helpful. 49461 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:37am Subject: Sammaa-samaadhi ( Right Concentration ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha said_ 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi saviitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pathama.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, vitakka vicaaraanam vupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso eko dibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti sukha.m dutiya.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano, sukhanca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti, ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti ''upekkhako satimaa sukha vihaarii''ti, tatiya jaana.m upasampajja viharati, sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassa domanssaana.m atthangamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi catuttha.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-samaadhi.' All these are The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Katamo means 'what?' 'which?' and katamaa means 'what? for many' or 'which? for many'. Bhikkhave means 'O! Monk' and this is 'addressing to bhikkhu disciples'. Samma-samaadhi has two parts in it. Samma and samaadhi. Samma means 'right' 'well' 'proper' 'true' 'genuine' 'profitable' 'good' etc etc. Samaadhi may come from 'sama' + 'adhi'. Adhi means 'great' 'higher' 'superior' 'big' 'hugh' 'senior'. Sama means 'calmness' 'tranquility' 'mental quietness'. Saman carati means 'to become quiet'. So sama or tranquility which has great degrees is called sama+ adhi or samaadhi. Among samaadhi all those that are profitable, wholesome, good are called sammaa-samaadhi. Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. The question can be seen above and it indicates that there are more than one which are sammaa-samaadhi. The Buddha said 'what are sammaa-samaadhi?' and then answered this as above. The description says that there are many sammaa-samaadhi. 1. leaving sensuality and all unprofitable things one stays with a)initial application, b)sustained application, c)joy, d) tranquility. 2. one enters the first jhaana. 3. leaving initial application and sustained application one stays with a)joy, and b) tranquility. 4. one enters the second jhaana. 5. leaving joy one just stays with tranquility (sukha-vihaarii or staying with sukha or pleasantness). 6. one enters the third jhaana. 7. leaving tranquility one just stays equanimously (leaving dukkha, sukha, domanassa, somanassa and just stays with equanimous feeling). 8. one enters the fourth jhaana. Then The Buddha said 'Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi'. Then The Buddha said 'These can be called, O! Monk, right concentration'. Number 7 already includes all 4 aruupa jhaanas and their preliminary mental states. That is they all just have 'equanimity'. So sammaa-samaadhi are many. All 4 ruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. All 4 aruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before all 4 ruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before all 4 aruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. As this sutta is to general bhikkhu-sangha there is no details regarding actual states of magga. As the topic is 'sammaa-samaadhi' all sammaa-samaadhis were preached. When one is absorbed then there is no way to see any anicca or dukkha or anatta. Even when absorbed then one has to come out of jhaana and then does retrospection (paccavakkhana) and this retrospection leads to seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta and then when there is maturity magga naana arises along with magga citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 49462 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:47am Subject: Numbered posts by Htoo, Tep, Herman htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: Hi Htoo, I am sorry to come in on this post without addressing the subject matter. This was just a way of making sure you got to read this. I wanted you to know that somewhere in the future I may post some material in which the headings might be in numerical sequence, just like your Dhamma thread. I wanted to make sure that you knew beforehand that if it happens (gotta wait for those pesky conditions) that in no way should those headings be seen as mocking, deprecating or making any adverse comment about your series. Kind Regards Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Herman, That is fine. I understand it. Tep wrote 'Breathing treatise', which is very very good. Now you have a plan to post something like series. It is good. This makes guarantee for continuous flow of ideas. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49463 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 513 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration This is ekaggata cetasika as ultimate dhamma. As ekaggata arises with each and every citta, not every ekaggata is path-factor. Examples are there are ekaggata cetasika or one-pointedness in 10 panca-vinnana cittas. These 10 panca-vinnaana cittas are 2 eye-consciousness, 2 ear- consciousness, 2 nose-consciousness, 2 tongue-consciousness, and 2 body-consciousness. They do have ekaggata cetasika or one- pointedness. But this ekaggata is not magganga or path-factor. Samma-samadhi arises in many kusala dhamma as path-factor. Because of this the destination is reached through the path of concentration. It also arises in both rupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana. When it arises in magga cittas it is called lokuttara samma-samadhi. There are samma-samadhi. Samma-samadhi is ekaggata cetasika when it arises with cittas or mental states when there are no hindrances at all and there are many different mental states that samma-samadhi arise. They are 1. 1st rupa jhaana 2. 2nd rupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 1st aruupa jhaana (akasanancayatana) 6. 2nd arupa jhaana (vinnaanancayatana) 7. 3rd aruupa jhaana (akincinnaayatana) 8. 4th aruupa jhaana (nevasannanasannaayatana) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49464 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:10am Subject: A little buddhist computer humour .... christine_fo... Hello all, http://www.healing-touch.co.uk/beware.htm metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49465 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: A little buddhist computer humour .... buddhatrue Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > http://www.healing-touch.co.uk/beware.htm > > metta and peace, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- LOL!!!! Very hilarious! Loved it! Metta, James 49466 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew (and Phil) - In a message dated 8/30/05 1:34:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > But, Phil, concentrating on something is one activity out of many. Except > for its usefulness for a variety of purposes, it is nothing special - just an > activity. > So, accordingly, one should say that to decide to do anything at all, > there is self doing that thing. Does this mean that one should never decide to do > things? Never decide to take proper action? Never decide to study Dhamma? > Never decide to pay more attention to one's responsibility, or to be more > thoughtful? Should we throw out deciding entirely because there might well be a sense > of self in doing so? > I suppose you understand that my answers to these rhetorical questions > are, in every case, "no". Hi Howard and Phil The more, the merrier, I suppose, so I will say a few words on this. Howard, I don't know whether your rhetorical questions are an acceptance or implied denial of conditionality. ------------------------------------------- Howard: They don't deal with that matter in particular. But I not only accept conditionality - I consider it basic. Nothing arises except on the basis of the coming together of requisite conditions. -------------------------------------------- Phil knows that conditionality determines if proper action etc will arise. "He" is not able to direct that arising because (ultimately) "he" doesn't exist. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. Me, too. In fact, I've had the experience of there being no self, no me, no personal identity, and I *know* that while there may be belief in self and there may be the sense of self, there is, except in a manner of speaking, in fact and reality, no self, no actor, no observer, no one who wills, no one who decides, no agent at all. Clear? But there is conventional decision making occurring all the time. Some of it is good and moral, and some is flawed and immoral. Underlying what we *call* decision making is, of course, nothing but fleeting, conditioned, empty phenomena. ------------------------------------------- A quote from Van Zeyst: "And so emerges slowly the Buddha's view, that the existence of a 'will' is as much a contradiction as the existence of a mind, or of a physical substance, or of a spiritual soul. Just as thought arises through sense-contacts, so 'will' arises as an act of volition through sense-contacts and through the not-understanding (avijja) of the world of events." A. Sujin's comment is correct in that, when we deliberately decide to concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of the world of events. --------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. --------------------------------------- I see no indication that she was limiting not-understanding to just deliberate concentration. Perhaps she picked on concentration because of its central place in popular Buddhism (I went for years to Buddhist talks that basically said 'all you have to do is concentrate'). Van Zeyst: "in right thinking all contradiction will cease, and there will be immediate action. To avoid this immediate action, however, the mind introduces a slowing-down process, which is called deliberation or deliberate choice. -------------------------------------- Howard: There are places where the Buddha urged us to stop and consider before acting! It is important that we do so. Else we are very, very likely to be led by the defilements. Do not lose sight of the fact that we are children on the path! -------------------------------------- Choice confuses the issue and causes the conflict by introducing a false second factor, while deliberation is another delaying tactic which avoids immediate action. Our difficulty, therefore, is not how to make a right choice, but how to think rightly so that there will be no choice, no deliberation, but immediate action, as a result not of desire but of full comprehensive awareness." ------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. For higher ariyans this makes much sense, but not for worldlings or even stream enterers. ------------------------------------------- With respect, Howard, your rhetorical questions might be read as introducing a false second factor that only reinforces not- understanding of the world of events. -------------------------------------------- Howard: You are welcome to your perspective, of course. ------------------------------------------- If so, I think you are unwittingly misinterpreting A. Sujin out of context in the way we are all prone to misinterpret the Buddha when we think we can read a sutta and know exactly what the meaning is. Howard, I get alot out of your posts (and never say so) so I hope my disagreement with or failure to understand this one doesn't give a false impression of my deep respect for you and your extensive learning. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for the kind words, Andrew! (Though my learning is much less than "extensive"! ;-) Expressing differences in opinion and understanding don't imply disrespect in the slightest. I certainly know that, and I likewise wish to state my respect for you, my friend. ----------------------------------------- Best wishes Andrew T ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49467 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. egberdina Hi Andrew, Hope conditions weren't too bad today :-) == > A. Sujin's comment is correct in that, when we deliberately decide to > concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of the world of > events. == I ought not to be surprised at anything said on this forum, but this one was especially curious. I'll try and rewrite it so it sounds more like what it would sound like if it were saying what I think you think you were saying. Andrew (who doesn't exist) writes: A Sujin, (who doesn't exist to be able to make ...) comments, is correct in my ( I don't exist to be able to make evaluations) opinion, when we, (who don't exist to be able to..... ) make deliberate decisions to concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of the world of events, in the eyes of accountants, lawyers and cheese merchants, who also don't exist. end quote. Please read my signature below, I'm rather pleased with it. You are dignified by being the first recipient of it. Kind Regards Herman -- There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 49468 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Howard, Andrew, Phil, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > A. Sujin's comment is correct in that, when we deliberately decide to > concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of the world of > events. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I disagree. > --------------------------------------- I disagree also. K. Sujin's declarative statement, without any support from the Buddha's teachings, is very incorrect. Even the commentaries to the Four Foundations of Mindfulness describe how certain personalities and dispositions are more inclined, and should focus formost, on one of the Four Foundations before the others. This flies in the face of K. Sujin's statement (Gosh, I wish that woman would post to this group!! ;-)) Metta, James 49469 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhistmedi... Hi, James - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > I disagree also. K. Sujin's declarative statement, without any > support from the Buddha's teachings, is very incorrect. Even the > commentaries to the Four Foundations of Mindfulness describe how > certain personalities and dispositions are more inclined, and should > focus formost, on one of the Four Foundations before the others. This > flies in the face of K. Sujin's statement (Gosh, I wish that woman > would post to this group!! ;-)) > I also wish that your wish came true !! It would make this place more interesting. James, I admire your candor and extremely consistent view on Khun Sujin's teachings. It should be beneficial for everyone to clearly see both sides of an issue, although it is usually very difficult to persuade others to broaden their perspective, even a little. Sincerely, Tep ============ 49470 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:19am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Howard, > Yep. Me, too. In fact, I've had the experience of there being no > self, no me, no personal identity, and I *know* that while there > may be belief in self and there may be the sense of self, there is, > except in a manner of speaking, in fact and reality, no self, no > actor, no observer, no one who wills, no one who decides, no agent > at all. Clear? > But there is conventional decision making occurring all the time. > Some of it is good and moral, and some is flawed and immoral. > Underlying what we *call* decision making is, of course, nothing > but fleeting, conditioned, empty phenomena. Well said, Howard! Your words are encouraging! Regards, Swee Boon 49471 From: "frank" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:32am Subject: dhamma soup for the busy body dhamma_service . "If you have time to breathe, you have time to meditate." -Luang Pu 49472 From: nina Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:05am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 8 The Natural Way to develop Understanding Dhamma Discussions in Pnompenh (Part Two) ***** Nina. 49473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. Talking about a self? nilovg Hi Tep, op 30-08-2005 00:58 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > quotes Nina: The Dispeller of Delusion¹(I, p. 7) also refers to the the two > methods of explanation. It states with regard to the Suttanta method: > > existences, whether produced in the immediately preceding existence > or at a distance of a hundred thousand ko.tis [100.000 or 10. 000,000] of > aeons (kappa), is all called past. And from death [onwards] the > materiality producible in future existences, whether produced in the > immediately next existence or at the end of a hundred thousand ko.tis > of aeons, is all called future. The materiality which occurs between > death and rebirth is called present.> > > Tep: This commentator assumes that the present, past and future lives > of each person are defined only by three materialities that correspond > to the three periods, not dependent on the number of existences. --------- N: The heading of this whole section is rupakkhandha. But implied are the namakhandhas as well. In the planes where there are nama and rupa the five khandhas arise and fall away together. -------- Tep: Therefore, there could be a great many existences in the past and a > great many existences in the future, but the assumption is that there is > only one materiality in the past and only one materiality in the future. ------- N: Again, five khandhas. And not only one rupa. Rupas arise and fall away but there is a continuous production of new rupas by the four factors of kamma, citta, nutrition and heat. See the following para of Vis. we shall come to. --------- Tep: Yet, it assumes that "the materiality which occurs between death and > rebirth is called present", although there is only one existence!! > What is the reason for such strange assumption? > Further, why is there no mentality involved at all? ------- N: For from rebirth-linking [backwards] the materiality produced in past > existences, ... is all called past. And from death [onwards] the > materiality producible in future existences, ....is all called future. The materiality which occurs between death and rebirth is called present. Thus, reckoned is past, future, present. This is the conventional way of speaking about life span. In fact each life consists of rupas continually produced, arising and falling away, and of cittas and cetasikas, arising and falling away, succeeding one another without a break. -------- > Nina: This passage reminds us of the countless lives in the cycle of > birth and death. Our present life becomes past life in a short while, it > does not last long, but after that there are countless more lives. > Our life now consists of infinitely brief moments that arise and pass > away extremely fast. If we remember this we are motivated not to waste > our life away with useless things, but to develop understanding of the > present dhamma. As the Bhaddekaratta Sutta exhorts us, we should > not follow after the past nor desire for the future, but cultivate insight of > the present dhamma. > > Tep: Your comment sounds to me like a story of self, although I agree > with your suggestion that we should only cultivate insight of the present > dhamma. ------ N: Story of self? The words are to be taken in ordinary, conventional sense. The Buddha also recalled his past lives: I was such and such in a former life, of such and such a clan... --------- Tep: You say "our present life", when referring to one particular life unit in this > string of many many lives. Is one life a self ? Or is the whole spectrum > of "countless lives" a self? Whose life? Whose countless lives? > Whose cycle of birth and death? No, I am not talking about "a soul" > that "travels" from one life to the next. ------- N: see above. ------------ Tep: You cannot convince anyone, I think, by saying that there is "no self" in > the above comment, because if the present life unit represents a > clearly defined person (Nina, Tep, Howard, James, etc.) and each and > every unit of the individual's string of countless lives does not belong > to anyone else, then there is no other way but to admit there is a self (at > least according to the Macmillan). ------- N: We can speak of the life of an individual, and we can speak of a character of an individual. At the same time we know at least in theory, that what we call characters are accumulations of different individuals. It is allowable to use the word individual, it does not contradict non-self. Are there not different kammas of different individuals that produce different rebirths, and different results in life? Do people not have different accumulated tendencies, good ones and bad ones? We can find this in the suttas. Also the Abhidhamma clearly explains: this cause brings this result. There are different planes of existence and birth in these planes is the result of different kammas of different individuals. When someone is born he starts a new life, and that life is neither the same as the previous life nor another. Why? Because the new life is conditioned by the past. My father has now another life, he is not my father anymore. But his life now (I do not know where) is conditioned by the life I knew him as my father. Nina. 49474 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi James, > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and come > back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. > I found the following at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/suwand1.htm Since the Visuddhimagga was the "test" by which Buddhaghosa was judged by the Sinhalese Elders to be allowed to translate the commentaries into pali, it cannot but be the case that he had to be accurate in his understanding and analysis of so central a concept as the dhammas. It is indeed entirely possible as well that Buddhaghosa noted the presence of the noncanonical material in the Sinhalese commentaries, but, as Adikaram points out (p. 4), his task was "not to rectify," particularly given his lack of originality (supra) and the striving for authenticity to scripture. There are, of course, unfortunately no Sinhalese commentaries to check out this claim. Kind Regards Herman -- There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 49475 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, para 239 - 243 buddhistmedi... Hi, all - The presentation last week stopped at para 238. Now we move on to the third ground(vatthu) that deals with "he trains thus 'I shall breath in acquainted with the whole breath body' and 'I shall breath out acquainted with the whole breath body'." The Pali goes like the following : 'sabbakaya patisamvedi assasissami ti sikkhati, sabbakaya patisamvedi passasissami ti sikkhati '. Please notice the work 'sikkhati' which means "training" or practice such that full awareness of the whole breath body is accomplished. In the previous two vatthus there is only the word ' pajaanaati ', not 'sikkhati', for example : Digham vaa assasanto digham assasaami-ti pajaanaati, which means ' while breathing in long, he knows "I am breathing in long",' etc. Does anybody knows why the text drops 'pajaanaati' and turns to 'sikkhati' instead? (vatthu iii) 239. How is that (5) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the whole body [of breaths]'; (6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted the whole body [of breaths]'? [Analysis of the Object of Contemplatation] 240. 'Body' : there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body. Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, and mentality are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations(citta sankhara); these are the mental body. What is the material body? The four great entities(mahaabhuuta) and the materiality(ruupa) derived by clinging from the four great entities, in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness]. and also what are called body formations(kaya- sankhara): this is the material body. 241. How is he acquainted with these bodies? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long in-breaths, his mindfulness is established(founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge(nana) he is acquainted with those bodies. When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long out-breaths, ... through short in-breathss, ... through short out- breaths, his mindfulness is established(founded). By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies. 242. When he adverts, he is acquainted with those bodies. When he knows, he is acquainted with those bodies. When he sees, ... reviews, ... establishes (founds) mindfulness, ... concentrates cognizance, ... When he understands with understanding, ... When he directly knows what is to be directly known, ... When he understands what is to be understood, ... When he abandons what is to be abandoned, ... When he develops what is to be developed, ... When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with those bodies. That is how those bodies are experienced. [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 243. In-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths] are a body. The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The body is the establishment (foundation) but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment(foundation) and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that body. Hence 'Development of the Foundation (Establishment) of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body as a body' is said. Tep's Notes. ------------- By means of the Anapanasati bhavana the meditator understands the unity and non-distraction of the cognizance(citta), and his mindfulness is established inside (not wandering outside). As the consequence of the gained insight he is "acquainted with" both his material body and mental body -- i.e. he experiences these bodies the way they really are. The true understanding(vipassana-nana) of nama-rupa can be conditioned to arise by means of the following factors : adverting the citta, knowing, seeing, reviewing, stablishing (sati), concentrating (citta), understanding, direct knowledge, abandoning (kilesas), developing (calm and insight), and realizing (the nama-rupa characteristics). There are words that I added inside the parentheses to explain the text further, according to my understanding. Please feel free to disagree and tell me how to correct my errors, if any. Sincerely, Tep ============= 49476 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:50pm Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Herman, Dan, and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi James, > > > > > Anyway, if you study the history of the Vism. you will find that > > Buddhaghosa wrote it for the monks of Sri Lanka in order to gain > > access to the ancient Tipitaka in Sinhalese which he wished to > > translate into Pali. Do you not know this? Do some research and come > > back to me with facts rather than 'gentle slams'. Thanks. > > > > I found the following at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR- PHIL/suwand1.htm > > Since the > Visuddhimagga was the "test" by which Buddhaghosa > was judged by the Sinhalese Elders to be allowed to > translate the commentaries into pali, it cannot but > be the case that he had to be accurate in his > understanding and analysis of so central a concept > as the dhammas. It is indeed entirely possible as > well that Buddhaghosa noted the presence of the > noncanonical material in the Sinhalese commentaries, > but, as Adikaram points out (p. 4), his task was > "not to rectify," particularly given his lack of > originality (supra) and the striving for > authenticity to scripture. There are, of course, > unfortunately no Sinhalese commentaries to check out > this claim. > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Thanks so much Herman. I knew that I had read this information somewhere, though I don't think it was this source. It must be common knowledge but not described in every document. Metta, James 49477 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control matheesha333 Hi Ken, K: My point was that, regardless of > whether they understood deeply of superficially, people knew that the > Buddha's conventional-sounding words contained much more than > conventional meaning. M: Maybe, maybe not. I dont think he always meant it to be deep. I remember Anathapindika on his death bed crying out to Sariputta asking him why he didnt teach him the deeper dhamma when he finally did do it. The dhamma preached to singalovada was very simple. There's no doubt about it. K:> I don't think the Dhamma is ever "very simple." Some people can > understand it only superficially, but that does not mean that the > Dhamma itself can be superficial. M: I think that the beginings may indeed be very simple. I would have to ask you to find abhidhamma in the Singalovada sutta for example. But there is no escaping having to deal with paramatta dhamma once the person progresses in the dhamma. K: Today that is not the case, and Buddhism is > widely considered as just another course in meditation. M: Sadly, yes. But atleast no one would consider it a course in theory fortunately. K:Ignorant people may think that - > provided there is no harming - precepts can be kept when there is > wrong view or attachment or conceit etc. But that won't help them to > keep the precepts. Precepts are kept by conditioned dhammas - i.e., > when there is kusala citta with virati-cetasika. M: I try not to call others ignorant. I dont know in what vein or meaning the buddha meant it when he called someone foolish, but I think it only builds arrogance in me based on what I learnt and experienced. Tell me, who would be more in line with dhamma, a person who steals, or a person who gives dana trying to compete with the neighbours. A person who is like the latter, or someone who is simply happy to give dana and help someone. A person like the latter, or someone who understands the paramatta implications and gives dana accordingly? It seems clear to me that the dhamma is not a one dimensional thing to be doled out with the same spoon to everyone. Try teaching abhidhamma to a robber and a rapist and you'll see what I mean. ------------------------- M:> Can I ask what you think would be the > difference in a jhana with and without right understanding is K:Kusala concentration is intrinsically > different from akusala concentration, mundane right concentration is > intrinsically different from ordinary kusala concentration, and > supramundane right concentration is intrinsically different from > mundane right concentration. > > That is one way of looking at it, but there is also the fact that > samadhi is samadhi, regardless of the other namas that accompany it. M: Lovely, thank you for that. If we look at the noble eightfold path samma sati gives rise to samma samadhi which in turn leads to samma gnana and samma vimukti. I dont think, that you think that you can bypass samma samadhi and get to the other two. Or maybe the question should be - what do you consider as samma samadhi. Access concentration is not mentioned anywhere in the suttas. The four jhaanas as samma samadhi is mentioned multiple times in the suttas. Also samadhi wich is conditioned by the other path factors is mentioned once in the mahacattasarika sutta. On the balance of the evidence, jhana based on right understanding seems to hold sway. The question is why is jhana the 8th step of the noble rightfold path, and not tea drinking based on right understanding. It seems that right understanding alone is not enough, after all it is present in the other 6 path factors as well. I recently studied for 8 hours in one day. I never reached any type of samadhi. However if I focus on my breath I can reach the first jhana in about 30 minutes. The idea that studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not found in any of the suttas as far as I know. Can you find a reference? K:In a paramattha moment > of vipassana, right understanding is the forerunner. M: I agree that the mahacattasarika sutta says right understanding is the forerunner... It does lead us to practice (you might object to that word) the right and not the wrong as mentioned in the suttas. I was trying to bring out an important point, in that to call it a forerunner is to impose (usefully perhaps) a theoretical framework on the dhammas - ie a framework which doesnt exist in absolute terms. To classify is conventional thinking. It has our interpretations added much like we would add/interpret a Self to the pancaskanada. This is why direct observation is important. K:Even though all > path factors arise together, right understanding is the cause of the > others to arise. Then, having arisen, they all support each other. M: Do you mean this at the point of giving rise to magga-citta or at some other point? K: > Not appreciating right understanding as forerunner, some people sit > on a cushion or focus on walking (etc.) in order to meditate. They > think right effort or right concentration comes first. M: Yes, if someone sits down without the indfluence of right understanding, either through ones own effort or that of instruction of a teacher, one can get into trouble. Mind you, a teacher might only instruct as much dhamma as required for the moment. There are many instances where the suttas speak of meditating. What do you make of those? K:But real > (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in > the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is > conditioned to arise. M: Yes, that is the first time it happens. It can be conditioned to arise continuously, especially if you follow the satipattana instructions: 'putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world' which is commonly forgotten. Without seeing it continuously it is very difficult to get to the anicca means dukka understanding (does your knowledge make you feel like giving up on the dhammas or make you interested in it more). Perhaps even more so to the dukka means anatta understanding. It might take lifetimes instead of the 7 years maximum the buddha promised. That is ofcourse if the barrage of kilesa doesnt cover up every shred of panna one has over that time. The arising of some paramatta panna is not the same as the arising of magga-phala citta as you know. The lightening strike references are aimed especially at those i believe (also the 'chicken hatching out of the egg'). K: Moments of mundane vipassana (satipatthana) weaken the defilements, > whereas moments of supramundane vipassana (magga-citta) finally > eradicate them. A sotapanna is, for example, completely incapable of > wrong view. M: Might i suggest that other factors like the brahmaviharas, sila and samadhi has a role to play in it quite apart from panna. ------------------------------ > M: > There is no doing in an absolute sense. But it is there in a > conventional sense. > --------------------- > > Yes, but the conventional sense is not real. The term 'conventional > reality' is a misnomer - because it refers to a "reality" that is not > a reality but an illusion. > > When, for example, we think we are chopping wood with an axe, there > is the illusion of doing. In reality, there are only moments of nama > a rupa. In some of those moments there will be concepts of wood > chopping (ideas of doing), but in reality there is no doing apart > from dhammas - arising, performing their functions and falling away. M: Yes, but it remains that the wood gets chopped! Things can be changed. Or to put it in another way, the content of dhammas arising which have chopped wood as opposed to unchopped wood as object, can be altered. It doesnt require a self to do that. -------------------- K> Sila is there in the absolute sense too. Every kusala citta can be > classified as either dana, sila or bhavana - depending on its co- > arising cetasikas. M: oh ok then :) Ken, I'm going to have to leave you now. I'm sorry but I'm again spending too much time at the keyboard, to the point it is an addiction -it is affecting the rest of my life. I wish I could come to some kind of a conclusion, but that is not to be. Good luck, with much metta Matheesha 49478 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:58pm Subject: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW egberdina Hi All, Perhaps some spring cleaning of the Useful Posts section on the Heart Base is in order. The essay in this link, http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/suwand1.htm does a pretty good job of showing that what is in the Nikayas about the seat of consciousness and what follows in later commentarial material, are quite unrelated. As a brief summary for those without the time or inclination to read the essay, the author argues, from the texts, that the Buddha was silent on the seat of consciousness, but that from various others references the conclusion that the whole body (namarupa) is the seat of consciousness is not unwarranted. As to the heart base being the seat of consciousness s/he has this to say: If our analysis is correct, then we must see the identification of the heart-base as the seat of consciousness during the post-Buddhian period as a gross misrepresentation of the Buddha, in violation of the Buddha's advice not to be led by "tradition" or "the authority of religious texts" (Kaalaama Sutta) . The tradition here for the Sinhalese Poraa.naacariyas appears to be Brahminism and the associated worldview, with the Vedas, Puraanas, AAgamas, and Upani.sads collectively being the texts. For Buddhaghosa, Kassapa, and all others later, the Sinhalese Poraa.naacariyas and their A.t.thakathaas (see Adikaram 1946 for an overview) serve as tradition and text, respectively. What we then have, it appears, is an example of how the violation of a scholarly principle of objectivity, as called for by the Buddha, can blind an inquirer to the obvious. For after all, as we have seen, the reciprocal relationship between vi~n~naa.na and naamaruupa is no stranger to the AAbhidhammikas, Poraa.naacariyas, or Buddhaghosa, since it appears in their own analyses. Yet they slide over it as if it was irrelevant to the question at hand!(38) Kind Regards Herman -- There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 49479 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:07pm Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Amr, > > Thank you for replying. > Even whilst going to pray with other Muslims, for example, there can be > more understanding and awareness of what life is at such moments -- > seeing, hearing, thinking and so on. No Amr at all. > .... Amr and I had a very funny discussion about your post to him. I don't know if he will reply but I will try to get him to. The funniest part of the discussion was whether he exists or not! LOL! Really, do you think it is very skillful to tell a beginning Buddhist, fresh from a different religion, that he doesn't exist?? Did the Buddha ever tell people, especially those new to the dhamma, that they don't exist? You seem to have become fanatical with this viewpoint and it has made you lose some of your common sense. One other thing he mentioned, which I agree with: It is presumptious (my word choice) for you to tell him not to change his religion when he has already done so and told you he had done so- and he had made the decision on his own. Do you often tell people what religion they should follow? I never told him to stop believing in Islam, that was his choice; and when he did so I didn't tell him to believe in it again. That would be silly! Even if his life is in danger, it is his choice. Again, your fanatical viewpoints seem to be clouding over some common sense. I will try to get Amr to respond since he has a way of expressing himself that I can't possibly duplicate. Metta, James 49480 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Vism.XIV,188 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 188. (b) 'According to continuity': that [materiality] which has like or single origination72 by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is 'present'. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is 'past'. That which is subsequent is 'future'. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is 'present'. Previous to that is 'past'. Subsequent to that is 'future'. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness. -------------------------- Note 72. 'Cold temperature is like with cold, and hot with hot. But that temperature which falls on the body, whether hot or cold, and occurs as a continuity in one mode, being neither less nor more, is called "single temperature". The word "single" is used because of the plurality of "like" temperature. So too with nutriment. "In one cognitive series, in one impulsion" refers respectively to five-door and mind-door consciousness. The explanations of 'continuity' and 'period' are given in the Commentaries for the purpose of helping the practice of insight'. (Pm.496). 49481 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) egberdina Hi Phil, You have an interesting take on anger. > As Sarah was saying the other day, Dan meant that in a teasing > way, but what you said reminded me of my wife because when I have an > outburst of anger she says "some Buddhist you are!" or something > like that, but Buddhism is not about always being peaceful and calm, > though that will probably happen more and more as our understanding > deevelops. The most important thing is understanding ourselves, > understanding the way we've accumulated ignorance, greed and hatred > (called moha, lobha and dosa, the three unwholesome roots) for > countless lifetimes. We will lose control at times to lust and > anger, do foolish things - that doesn't make us any less Buddhist. I asked someone the other what qualifies a person as a Buddhist. Seeing as you offer an opinion here, you might have an idea on that question. There is a sutta which I just cannot place at the moment where the Buddha says that anyone who is angry or aversive, even while having their arms cut off, has misunderstood the teachings. Anger and understanding are mutually exclusive. It seems to me that the understanding you talk about is a revision of things that have already past. Is there benefit in understanding the past? To me, that is not understanding, it is just story telling. To even come near to what the present moment actually is requires right concentration. Right understanding and right concentration are mutually conditioning. Not linear, but circular. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for both you and your wife that you are beating her less :-) Kind Regards Herman -- There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 49482 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:37pm Subject: Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 187 and Tiika. gazita2002 dear Nina, thank you, it makes sense to me now. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita ' > here in the text the meaning of addhaa, life span is clarified. After the > dying-consciousness there is the present lifespan and this is followed by a > next lifespan which is still future but sure to come. > Nina. > op 30-08-2005 03:34 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > > > > A. I thought that 'death and rebirth' should have been reversed, but > > now I'm thinking that its correct in the original state. 49483 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Hope conditions weren't too bad today :-) > > == > > A. Sujin's comment is correct in that, when we deliberately decide to > > concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of the world of > > events. > == > > I ought not to be surprised at anything said on this forum, but this > one was especially curious. > > I'll try and rewrite it so it sounds more like what it would sound > like if it were saying what I think you think you were saying. > > Andrew (who doesn't exist) writes: > A Sujin, (who doesn't exist to be able to make ...) comments, is > correct in my ( I don't exist to be able to make evaluations) opinion, > when we, (who don't exist to be able to..... ) make deliberate > decisions to concentrate on an object, there is not-understanding of > the world of events, in the eyes of accountants, lawyers and cheese > merchants, who also don't exist. > end quote. > > Please read my signature below, I'm rather pleased with it. You are > dignified by being the first recipient of it. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > -- > There is ego, but not a self who has it. > (Hofman H. 2005) Hi Herman Let me assure you that you are welcome to be derisive about any of my posts if it assists your wellbeing and understanding. I disagree with your outlook on the Dhamma and will end this discussion there, if you don't mind. Take care Andrew T 49484 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: dhamma soup for the busy body buddhistmedi... Hi, Frank - When you read this Luangpu's dhamma, what do you understand? Is this about breathing meditation (anapanasati), or breathing as the object of satipatthana in the present moment, or simply about meditation that is a part of life the same way as breathing is? Or something else? Thanking you in advance, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > . "If you have time to breathe, you have time to meditate." > > > > > > -Luang Pu > ------------------------------------------------ 49485 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control/ Matheesha's Good Points buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha and Ken H (Attn. Howard, Phillip, Jon) - Thank you, Matheesha, for making th following great points in your message # 49477 to Ken H. Matheesha: 1. If we look at the noble eightfold path samma sati gives rise to samma samadhi which in turn leads to samma gnana and samma vimukti. I dont think, that you think that you can bypass samma samadhi and get to the other two. Or maybe the question should be - what do you consider as samma samadhi. Access concentration is not mentioned anywhere in the suttas. The four jhaanas as samma samadhi is mentioned multiple times in the suttas. 2. I recently studied for 8 hours in one day. I never reached any type of samadhi. However if I focus on my breath I can reach the first jhana in about 30 minutes. The idea that studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not found in any of the suttas as far as I know. Can you find a reference? ----------------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > ------------------------- > M:> Can I ask what you think would be the > > difference in a jhana with and without right understanding is > > K:Kusala concentration is intrinsically different from akusala > concentration, mundane right concentration > is intrinsically different from ordinary kusala concentration, and > > supramundane right concentration is intrinsically different from > > mundane right concentration. > > That is one way of looking at it, but there is also the fact that > > samadhi is samadhi, regardless of the other namas that accompany it. 49486 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. corvus121 Hi Howard Thanks for your reply and kind words. On the substantive issues, it seems I correctly understood the tenor of your post. If you don't mind, I'll snip to a further question which might assist in making clear the distinctions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > There are places where the Buddha urged us to stop and consider before > acting! It is important that we do so. Else we are very, very likely to be led > by the defilements. AT: Are you not saying here that conditionality takes second place to a deliberate "doing", that the Buddha was telling us to direct conditionality? Is that how "the world of events" (my phrase of the week) operates? Or is it far more subtle than that? [I can do rhetorical questions, too (-:] Howard: [I snipped too much here, sorry] I disagree. For higher ariyans this makes much sense, but not for > worldlings or even stream enterers. AT: You are arguing, are you not, that reality ("the world of events") is different for higher ariyans than for worldlings and even sotapannas? Both, however, occur in conditioned existence. When we talk conventionally about "stopping and pausing to consider", we are covering an enormous number of akusala and kusala moments. As I see it, the moments of deliberate thinking about self doing something in the future are tainted with ignorance and not conducive to liberation. That's not to say that the entire conventional event is without kusala. In the suttas, the Buddha said it is hard to find a simile for how fast the mind changes. I don't think we can rightly say that the Buddha was telling us that liberation is achieved by conventional doing based on wrong understanding of the world of events the Buddha described. Sorry Howard, James and Tep, but my vote stays firmly with Bhikkhu Dhammapala (Henri van Zeyst) and his colleagues: "From whatever angle one approaches the teaching of the Buddha, whether one takes the analytical aspect of his philosophy or the synthetic aspect of his morality, the conditionality of existence, the unsubstantiality of all phenomena, the interdependence of all relationship or the soullessness of the mental process - whether the search is for an absolute truth or for the ultimate good - one always comes to that central theme of anatta, the doctrine of the absence of any kind of entity of abiding nature. For the good is only relative, the truth is conditioned, the origination is dependent, a goal of achievement is non-existent, because the self is delusion." I think you are all trying to read the Dhamma with mere lipservice paid to anatta, and injecting into it a goal of achievement that seems to be displayed in the conventional language we have access to. Honestly, that's the impression I get. And I disagree with it. Yes, I may be wrong though and I hope my frank comments don't upset you because I *do* admire you all and appreciate your feedback. (-: Best wishes Andrew T PS sorry, Howard, I started this post talking to you and ended up addressing a chorus!! Running out of time ... 49487 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. egberdina Hi Andrew, > > Hi Herman > > Let me assure you that you are welcome to be derisive about any of my > posts if it assists your wellbeing and understanding. I disagree > with your outlook on the Dhamma and will end this discussion there, > if you don't mind. > I am not derisive, and if I was it would not assist my happiness or well-being. In context, you express a view to an audience of 670 odd people. On having the view tested, you decide to call stumps. That is your prerogative. The following sutta (thanks again to KKT) has a rather fancy name. I just call it "The Raw Prawn Sutta". I have edited it slightly, and you will notice where that is. Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338 8.The Raw Prawn Sutta "Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. Brahmin, don't come the raw prawn with me. I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' -- In the DN, between 3 and 7 and think, the Buddha takes some Brahmins to task, and massively explodes their proposterous propositions. Is he being derisive? I would think it was an act of kindness. You are in a place to know your own mind better than anyone else. As I am mine. Aversion is a great teacher. > Take care > Andrew T > > You too Herman -- There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 49488 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Ho, Andrew - In a message dated 8/30/05 9:35:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Thanks for your reply and kind words. On the substantive issues, it seems I correctly understood the tenor of your post. If you don't mind, I'll snip to a further question which might assist in making clear the distinctions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > There are places where the Buddha urged us to stop and consider before > acting! It is important that we do so. Else we are very, very likely to be led > by the defilements. AT: Are you not saying here that conditionality takes second place to a deliberate "doing", that the Buddha was telling us to direct conditionality? Is that how "the world of events" (my phrase of the week) operates? Or is it far more subtle than that? [I can do rhetorical questions, too (-:] ---------------------------------------- Howard: I just don't follow you, Andrew. The Buddha urged all sorts of things for us to do. Whatever are the namas and rupas that "doing" comes down to, including effort (viriya), volition (cetana), and so on, the Buddha gave his instructions using ordinary conventional language ... so that folks would understand what it was he was urging. Every thing occurs according to conditions. Whatever "we" do (or "do"), what actually is happening is a matter of phenomena arising & ceasing and coming together to lead to further phenomena arising & ceasing. When we "decide to stand up", what has happens is a complex sequence of actual events.We call that sequence "deciding to stand up". So what? But the bottom line is that the Buddha indeed instructed the intentional doing of many things! Human decision is not imagined, though it is a complex, and not something elementary. And, BTW, if you will read the suttas, the Buddha *most definitely* urged us to stop and consider before acting! No matter what "realities" underly that, he urged that action! (Read the suttas.) ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: [I snipped too much here, sorry] I disagree. For higher ariyans this makes much sense, but not for > worldlings or even stream enterers. AT: You are arguing, are you not, that reality ("the world of events") is different for higher ariyans than for worldlings and even sotapannas? ----------------------------------------- Howard: What I am arguing is that worldlings and lesser ariyans lack the moral stature to depend on undeliberated action. Undeliberated action for seriously flawed beings is dangerous to others and to themselves. There *are* differences among beings. ---------------------------------------- Both, however, occur in conditioned existence. When we talk conventionally about "stopping and pausing to consider", we are covering an enormous number of akusala and kusala moments. ----------------------------------------- Of course! Who says otherwise? Not I. The Buddha specifically told us to stop and consider, and to choose right action. Acting without deliberation in moral matters and in many other matters as well leads to disaster for most people. ----------------------------------------- As I see it, the moments of deliberate thinking about self doing something in the future are tainted with ignorance and not conducive to liberation. --------------------------------------- Howard: Whoa. Where did self enter into this? But in any case, the Budda DID say to deliberate! Of course, one needn't take him seriously in those areas that one prefers to think differently. -------------------------------------- That's not to say that the entire conventional event is without kusala. In the suttas, the Buddha said it is hard to find a simile for how fast the mind changes. I don't think we can rightly say that the Buddha was telling us that liberation is achieved by conventional doing based on wrong understanding of the world of events the Buddha described. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think you are raising so many red herrings her that I don't know where to begin. Hey, the matter is simple: If you think it is good just to act however one happens to feel like acting, do so. But the Buddha recommended stopping, considering, deliberating, and doing one's best. ----------------------------------- Sorry Howard, James and Tep, but my vote stays firmly with Bhikkhu Dhammapala (Henri van Zeyst) and his colleagues: "From whatever angle one approaches the teaching of the Buddha, whether one takes the analytical aspect of his philosophy or the synthetic aspect of his morality, the conditionality of existence, the unsubstantiality of all phenomena, the interdependence of all relationship or the soullessness of the mental process - whether the search is for an absolute truth or for the ultimate good - one always comes to that central theme of anatta, the doctrine of the absence of any kind of entity of abiding nature. For the good is only relative, the truth is conditioned, the origination is dependent, a goal of achievement is non-existent, because the self is delusion." ------------------------------------------- Howard: You and the venerable you are quoting, it would seem, think that the idea of anatta requires that worldlings act without consideration. If that were what the Buddha taught, I wouldn't be a Buddhist. Fortunately, it isn't. -------------------------------------------- I think you are all trying to read the Dhamma with mere lipservice paid to anatta, and injecting into it a goal of achievement that seems to be displayed in the conventional language we have access to. Honestly, that's the impression I get. And I disagree with it. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It doesn't matter one whit what my intellectual understanding of anatta is. What matters is going through the very conventional practice laid out by the Buddha that will lead to the direct knowing of the tilakkhana, to awakening, and to liberation. I have experienced a brief and limited glimpse of no-self. I have glimpsed anatta as reality, not just theory, I have enormous confidence in the tiratana, and I shall continue following the path of practice given to us by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------- Yes, I may be wrong though and I hope my frank comments don't upset you because I *do* admire you all and appreciate your feedback. (-: ----------------------------------------- Howard: I can't imagine why you admire me! Still, thanks for saying so. ---------------------------------------- Best wishes Andrew T PS sorry, Howard, I started this post talking to you and ended up addressing a chorus!! Running out of time ... ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49489 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: >> The following sutta (thanks again to KKT) has a rather fancy name. I > just call it "The Raw Prawn Sutta". I have edited it slightly, and you > will notice where that is. > > Anguttara Nikaya III. 337, 338 > > 8.The Raw Prawn Sutta > > "Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly > greetings, sat on a side and said: > > Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, > nothing is done by others. > > Brahmin, don't come the raw prawn with me. I have not seen or heard of such a > view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say > `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' > -- > > In the DN, between 3 and 7 and think, the Buddha takes some Brahmins > to task, and massively explodes their proposterous propositions. Is he > being derisive? I would think it was an act of kindness. Hi Herman Thanks for your comments and references. I will look at them and reflect. Perhaps I *am* coming the raw prawn as we say in Australia (running a silly line of reasoning). And I do admit to not fully appreciating your sense of humour and writing style. Apologies. Actually, I don't believe I was pushing the Brahmin's line of "nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others". My communication is obviously wanting. I'll try to rectify that when I get a bit more time ... which will be in a few days time. Thanks again Andrew T 49490 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:35pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. corvus121 Hi Howard As expected, a thorough and thoughtful response from you. Many thanks. I'm just about to race away, though, so I will have to delay my response. I don't think I have explained myself well. Will try later when I have time. Thanks again Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Ho, Andrew - > ] 49491 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:39pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control / What is Understanding? buddhistmedi... Hi, KenH (Nina, James, Matheesha, Herman, Htoo, Jon, and Phil)- I carefully studied your message # 49445 and found that you had been confused about "right understanding". You have shown a tendency to get mixed up and being unable to differentiate among "right understanding", ordinary understanding in a worldling, and right view (samma-ditthi). Dear Ken, to show to you that I am not making a false accusation, and that I am not your enemy either, please read your own comments below. After that please study the quoted passages from the Visuddhimagga and also from the selected few suttas: they are all about understanding and right view. Without removing such confusions from your mind, our communication will always break down (again and again). KenH's Comments in DSG #49445 ====================== 1. "And as to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? Right thought proceeds from right understanding, right speech proceeds from right thought, right action proceeds from . . ." [Mahacattarisaka Sutta, MN 117] 2. "I have it firmly planted in my head that, in a moment of Path- consciousness, samma-ditthi conditions the other factors by some kind of "prior-arising" condition. Then, they all condition each other by some kind of "co-arising" condition". 3. { Tep's quote from Vism I, 3 The Blessed One said : `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. } "Your quote begins with, "When a wise man," and I take it to mean literally what it says: the man was wise before he became established in virtue, and before he developed Magga-citta and supramundane Right understanding". 4. "Before we can begin to develop dana sila and bhavana we need a degree of understanding. A child has to understand it is good to share and bad to be stingy; good to look after his sister and bad to hit her; good to be sensible and bad to be silly". 5. "But real (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise. 6. "Clearly, you believe something more than right understanding is required. You also believe that the "something more" does not proceed from right understanding, but rather, right understanding proceeds from it. To my mind, that is contrary to what I have read in the suttas". Tep's Friendly Discussion of KenH's Confusions ============================= In your comment 1. the correct Pali for "right understanding" is 'samma- ditthi', the first path factor, which is indeed the forerunner of all other 7 factors. But the term "understanding' in the Vism. is the translation of the Pali 'panna'. There is no such a thing like 'samma-panna' as one of the path factors. Beyond the 8 path factors, there are 2 more path factors for the Arahant as explained in part (3) of MN 117 above : samma-ditthi, samma-sankappa, samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, samma-ajiva, samma vayama, samma-sati, samma-samadhi, samma-nana, samma- vimutti. There is the 'right knowledge' (samma-nana) that is a kind of panna(understanding) at the Arahatta-magga level. I agree with your comment 2. about the "prior arising" and "co-arising" conditions of sama-ditthi, because that's what MN 117 says too. Your comment 3. does not make sense because of the invented terminologies. The "supramundane Right understanding" is not in the 10 path factors of MN 117. So where shall we find it in the suttas? You got mixed up here. The term panna in the sutta and the Visuddhimagga does not the same meaning as the ordinary English word "understanding". See the extracts from the Visuddhimagga below, please. In your comment 5. are you talking about the first path factor, right view, that supports right concentration as stated in MN 117? Is your "real (paramattha) meditation" supported by "right understanding"? Is "real (paramattha) meditation" the same as samma-samadhi? But samma- samadhi is supported by the other 7 path factors, according to MN 117. See how confusing it is? In comment 6. this "right understanding" must not be "right view", the 1st path factor, as you sated in Comment 1. The "something more" that I was talking about means all the 7 prior path factors plus the two later samma-nana and samma-vimutti. So, clearly, you have been confused about "right understanding". The Vism. passages and the sutta excerpts below should be helpful for you, and please read more carefully in order to disentangle your tangle. Understandings and Right View from the Visuddhimagga =================================== 'Develop consciousness and understanding' : develop both concentration and insight. For it is concentrationthat is described here under the heading of 'consciousness', and insight under that of 'understanding'. Vism. I, 7. 'The purifying of one's own mind that is the Buddhas' dispensation' (DH 183), and because understanding is its culmination, understanding is the end of the dispensation. Vism. I, 10. "And likewise the reason for the states of stream-entry and once-return is shown by virtue; that for the state of non-return, by concentration; that for Arahantship by understanding". Vism. I, 14. Understanding and Right View from Selected Suttas ================================ I. Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, MN 117: ------------------------------------- (1) "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. (2) "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. (3) "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten. (4) "Clearly, you believe something more than right understanding is required. You also believe that the "something more" does not proceed from right understanding, but rather, right understanding proceeds from it. To my mind, that is contrary to what I have read in the suttas". II. AN IX.44 Pannavimutti Sutta --------------------------------- "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." Tep: Panna or "understanding" by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and "discernment" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu are the same. The above understanding that is connected to 'vimutti' should indeed be called "right understanding" III. SN XLVIII.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta ------------------------------------------ "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually present: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment". Tep: The faculty of discernment is Panna Indriya. It is not the same as samma-ditthi, it is very much the same as the dhammanupassana of the four Noble Truths in DN 22. DN 22: "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.' ---------------------------------------- Thank you for having read this far! Peace, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: (snipped) > > Tep: How do you put intellectual understanding to produce mundane > insight and finally full penetration? By practicing (e.g. using Maha- > satipatthana Sutta), of course. Practicing is developing. Development > is heedful. > ------------------ > > There is no self that 'practises' or 'produces insight.' This must be > understood at all stages of Dhamma study. It might produce some > confusing moments - "How can I practice if there is no self that can > practise?" - but it is only when we understand anatta that we can > progress at all. Nothing will be achieved by retaining a belief in > self, however practical it may seem. > > Ken H 49492 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 0:49am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 1 (Hindrances) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, I’m slowly catching up with all your posts sent while we were away. A few random comments on those I’ve read to date (of course, just my personal impressions clouded with the usual ignorance only:-) Dhamma Thread series posts – I find these truly excellent and I like your presentation with repetition too. Nivaranas –hindrances: It’s true as you stress that for the attainment of jhana and development of samatha, all the hindrances are stressed. I wonder whether we shouldn’t just stress ignorance as the main hindrance in the development of satipatthana? B.Bodhi’s Guide note on the hindrances: “According to the commentary the hindrances are mental factors which prevent unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do not allow arisen wholesome states to endure. The first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the attainment of the jhanas, the sixth hindrance [S: ignorance] is the major obstacle to the arising of wisdom.” S: Also, from the Netti-ppakara.na’m, translated as ‘The Guide’ (PTS), 66: “ ‘By ignorance is the world shut in’ is the answer to ‘[Tell] what is the world shut in by?’. The world is shut in by hindrances; for all creatures have ignorance as their [in-shutting] hindrance, according as the Blessed One said ..” Also, same text, 499: “Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the roundabout (cf S ii, 178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now among men.” S: I also think we need to stress that all states need to be known and can only be known when they arise. So, for example, if citta with wrong view doesn’t arise, it can’t be known. The same applies to all the other nivarana – they can only be known when they arise and in this sense are not a hindrance to the development of satipatthana, but are dhammas that have to be the objects of satipatthana in order to be eventually eradicated. I liked your discussion with Joop on kinds of bhava tanha. Again, the latent tendency can never be eradicated unless the particular kind of tanha (attachment) in question arises and is known with wisdom and detachment. Just because it’s not apparent, does not mean the tendency is not there. Finally, a good comment of yours on avijja-nivarana or ‘ignorance hindrances’: H: “This is subtle dhamma. All jhana including 5 ruupa jhaana and 4 aruupa jhaana do not have any trace of moha or ignorance. But without the knowledge given by the Buddha no one will see anatta. This inability to see anatta is a hindrance. This hindrance is avijja-nivarana.” Thank you for all your posts in the DT series. Metta, Sarah ========= 49493 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 0:57am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 2 (sexual desire or sensual desire?) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, You wrote some good posts on the 10 sa.myojanas or fetters and all the other classifications of defilements. I was reminded of a point that I'd meant to ask you about before. You translate kaama raaga as sexual desire. Wouldn't sensual desire be more appropriate in order to include all kinds of subtle attachment to the senses, only eradicated by the anagami magga naana? In the post I'm looking at now (#48991) you also rightly stress that bhavaraaga samyojana is only eradicated by arahatta magga naana. I think this is the point -- all kinds of subtle attachment to becoming and rebirth that we have no idea about, are only eradicated at this stage when they are clearly understood as dukkha and all final remnants of attachment are eradicated. Metta, Sarah ========= 49494 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:02am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 3 (Restlessness) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Perhaps I misunderstand your post #48939. I read you as suggesting that "restlessness (S: i.e uddhacca?) does not arise at all time even in cases of akusala." We know uddhacca arises even with subtle attachment or wrong concentration. Perhaps you're talking here about conventionally understood restlessness? Metta, Sarah ========= 49495 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:32am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 4 (Beads - internal and external) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Nina and Lodewijk, I have many more reservations about your satipatthana series (as you'd expect:-)), but will just pick up one point for now as it relates to a comment Nina made too. (Btw, I think the post #49043 acts as a very good summary of the content of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. Thank you.) The point I want to pick up on relates to the comments you often make in many of the posts in this series concerning 'internal' and 'external'. For example, in #49041, you write: "16 cittas or 16 contemplations is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another set of 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally." S: I'd like to ask you: How do you see the arising and falling away of cittas 'in other individuals'? Likewise, how does the practitioner perceive the 4 elements arising in others' body (your post #48869)and so on? Nina recently raised the same topic which we also discussed some time ago too, I believe. She wrote: "I said that I heard Kh Sujin saying that in the Satipatthanasutta it is said that there should be awareness of feelings internally, of one's own, but also externally, of someone else. The same with awareness of citta: internally, and externally. She explained that when we are with others we cannot help noticing their feelings and moods. These can be the means for us to be aware of the present reality. It may be thinking, or our own feeling, or our reactions to others." ***** S: In other words, the objects of satipatthana always refer to 'our own' cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Sati can never be aware of another's cittas, cetasikas and rupas (unless we're Buddhas or have special abhinnas) and pa~n~naa can never know another's cittas, cetasikas and rupas. However, these dhammas which arise and can be known may be on account of what is seen or heard or experienced here or there, 'internally' or 'externally', until eventually all idea of self or selves is eradicated. .... Nina added: "Lodewijk said that this is a social aspect mostly forgotten. We can use everything that comes our way, no selection. I gave as example that we may see someone else who is sad and crying. Then we may also become sad, and there can be awareness of our own feelings." **** S: This is the point: it is not awareness of the other's sadness, but awareness of our own feelings that has to be developed, no matter what the story or conditions for their arising might be. Usually, when we consider ideas of social aspects, it's a story about others rather than awareness of the present dhammas, I think. .... N: Lodewijk remarked that satipatthana is not theory that it encroaches on our daily life. It would be good if Sarah and Jon could discuss this subject more when in Noosa and also in Bgk! We can always learn more. .... S: I raised it briefly in Bangkok and gave a brief summary of my understanding. K.Sujin just agreed with it and didn't add more. Whenever friends raise questions about social issues or engaged Buddhism, her response is to check whether they really understand about namas and rupas appearing now. I think that the understanding of seeing, visible object and presently arising dhammas answers all these issues. I agree wholeheartedly with Lodewijk that this is not theory, it's daily life now as we speak and write -- whether with or without people around us! I'll look forward to any further comments on any of these posts. Metta, Sarah ========= 49496 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW nilovg Hi Herman, I appreciate it that you go over the posts on heartbase, making a study of it. Do not overlook Rob K's useful posts on the subject. I am joining you in the springcleaning. I quote some of my rupas: Nina. op 31-08-2005 00:58 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > Perhaps some spring cleaning of the Useful Posts section on the Heart > Base is in order. 49497 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:38am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 5 (Control and Jhana) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, I thought these comments you wrote (#48776)were excellent and just wish to repeat them: H:>Namma cannot be controlled. And ruupas cannot be controlled. Both dhamma are conditioned dhamma. They are sankhaara dhamma. They are anatta. If they can be controlled and what we like them to be then they cannot be anatta. But they are not. Jhana powers are not controlling anything. What happen is jhaana arise. As jhaana arises, abhinnaa arises if there they are. As abhinnaa arise there arise consciousness-born ruupas. Jhana arise because of conditions. Abhinnaa arise because of conditions. Consciousness-born ruupas arise because of consciousness. Naama and ruupas arise because of conditions and they all have to pass away when they have lived their life.< ***** S: I think we can read the Satipatthana sutta and all other suttas within the reference of these words: "Namma cannot be controlled. And ruupas cannot be controlled. Both dhamma are conditioned dhamma. They are sankhaara dhamma. They are anatta. If they can be controlled and what we like them to be then they cannot be anatta. But they are not...." My own view is that even newcomers to the Buddha's teachings should hear them. Otherwise, why not hear some other teachings instead? Metta, Sarah ========= 49498 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:58am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 6 (Cetasikas - lobha) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Nina), You asked Nina and I some questions in #49103 following a short extract from her book. I'd like to add a few further comments even though Nina already wrote a full answer. Firstly, you mentioned that 'lobha dictates to go into jhana in one or another way. This is a point. I just mean for non-ariyas.' .... S: I'm not sure I follow this -- if there is lobha arising, there won't be any 'going into jhana'. Lobha is a hindrance for jhana:). Please elaborate. On your questions: H: '1. what is accumulation?' .... S: Like lobha now. Each time it arises, it accumulates in the sense of 'building-up' or conditioning further lobha in future. If there's lobha now for a particular sight or sound or taste, it makes it just that little bit easier for lobha for the same kind of sight or sound or taste to arise in future. .... H: 'Is there a single dhamma unit lobha arises and passes away?' ... S: Yes, if I understand you. The lobha of a moment ago has completely gone, never to return. ... H: 'or are many many lobha dhamma-s accumulated (in a container_citta?) ... S: No container_citta. But each lobha dhamma that has ever arisen is not 'forgotten'. The tendency lies dormant as Nina says and sanna marks and recalls each experiences and so on. The tendencies are accumulated by pakatu-upanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition)which you wrote about before. ... H: 'in which way is it deeply rooted and where?' ... S: Each citta (and accompanying cetasikas)carries the roots by way of the asaya-anusaya. Only when such lobha arises, can it be seen, understood and gradually worn away. We can't talk about a place... .... H: "It is true that at the time of attachment (wanting pleasant things), there is no understanding or realization that things are subjected to change and do not last long." ... S: Excellent. I'd be glad to hear any of your own further reflections on the difficult points you raised here. Thank you again for all your contributions. Metta, Sarah ========= 49499 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:10am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 8 (siilabbata-paraamaasa & wrong views) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, I'll just recommend one more of your DT posts in particular: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48754 H: "If there is wrong view in mind while observing such things like worshiping corpse, remnants or corpse, heap of earthy ground, tomb are all 'siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' or 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knot'. This may also include when one is observing non-sense ritualistic behavioural activities like maintaining of strange postures as a practice in order to purify mind or in order to be liberated. There have been many many practices since human beings are on this earth. Some went through trials and errors and finally they set up a defined practice what they thought was a good thing to do as a spiritual cleansing and then they founded up their individual schools, teaching those things that they believed were all true. From their schools they propagate all their teachings to many different beings wherever they meet in whatever situations. The chief dhamma here is 'ditthi' or 'wrong-view'. As long as 'ditthi' is there and that ditthi is associated with lobha producing ditthi-gata-sampayutta-lobha-muula-cittas or greedy consciousness accompanied by wrong view there cannot be any panna or wisdom. Sometimes this ditthi is very subtle that it may not be detectable by the immatured. Examples are sitting in a quiet place, sitting on folded crossed legs, sitting on erect body, straightening the back, sitting under a tree, or any specific postures. When these are imitated by someone without knowledge of what is right and what is wrong and without knowledge of what is ditthi or wrong view they may well believe that they are following the right practice and they feel ease. But as long as there is ditthi, panna or wisdom cannot arise. Ditthi or wrong view may come to beings in many different forms. One of these forms is 'silabbatupadaa' or 'ritualistic clinging'. As it is an upadaana dhamma this ritualistic observatory clinging is grasping by beings and because of this firm-grasping or clinging new and new existences are generated. Once beings are able to destroy this clinging there will not be existence arise from this wrong-view and wrong practice." ***** Metta, Sarah p.s As I said, I think there are many more aspects related to the Satipatthana Sutta and Bead threads to discuss later:-)) ========= 49500 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:01am Subject: Dhamma notes to Htoo 7 (Bodhipakkiya Dhammas) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, (James & all), I thought you wrote a really excellent and detailed summary of the bodhipakkhiya dhammas or 37 requisites of enlightenment. I think it was James I was discussing these with before and I know Jon was also writing to someone about them. For anyone who is interested and usually skips Htoo's longer posts, I recommend another look: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48857 Metta, Sarah ========= 49501 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: e-card from Belief sukinderpal Hi Herman, > >Herman: > > Frank's quote is perfect. > > > > Luang Pu succinctly summarized: > > > > "No matter how much you think, you won't know. > > Only when you stop thinking will you know. > > But still, you have to depend on thinking so as to know." > > Sukinder: > Is this an example of a `self serving' preconceived idea? I have seen you > express such an attitude a few times before. I think it is a kind of > romanticism and/or idealism. I put it together with those ideas > professing the need to `develop concentration', `prior kusala states' > and `conventional effort'. But I will discuss this in another post when I > have time if you don't mind. And I do so now. There is `thinking' all the time, when the object of consciousness is not a paramattha dhamma, then it is concept. Also as I said in my last post, ditthi, tanha and mana are papanca dhammas. Which kind of `thinking' do you have in mind in the statement above? In case of the three proliferations, these are dhammas which can and *must* be known. Regarding `concepts', Buddha used them as much as any one else did. Mind-door process follows the sense door immediately and it is by natural decisive support condition if there will be akusala or kusala cittas with or without panna following this. Besides if thinking were a problem, then what value is there in the brahma viharas for example? It is true that at a moment of satipatthana, there is no `thinking' and one could say that at such instances, the thinking `stops'. But this does not seem to be the suggestion made above. It seems to say that the process of thinking is `undesirable', and goes on to propose that one can and should somehow `stop' thinking. That one can decide to think when appropriate and `not think' when needed and that the latter is a condition for insight to happen. This is not in accordance with the way things are. The development of sati and panna happens via a path in which no dhamma is judged as being inappropriate object of understanding. It is only with such an attitude that one can one day then state that "all is dhamma", otherwise that would be just an empty phrase. Thinking can be kusala or akusala; in any case it is conditioned, including of course, the very `judgement' about it's worth ;-). But is such a judgement in tune with the main thrust of the Buddha's teachings? If all dhammas are equally the object of insight, why this should be judged as being undesirable? One expects to know another dhamma and not know this one!!? Many have the idea that `thinking' comes in the way of direct understanding, but this I believe is because there is a wrong understanding of the nature of realities and of what the development of sati and panna *is* and involves. It is just *more* thinking which cause one to arrive at such a conclusion, and wrong thinking at that. It is one thing to know that `thinking is not direct understanding'. This is correct. However it is wrong to then extrapolate and conclude that with the absence of thinking, realities can then be known directly. Meanwhile realities rise and fall and there is no awareness of them. Thinking engenders more thinking and in the end, the knowing is also via thinking, but one believes otherwise. It is the same story with `formal sitting', a wrong thinking giving rise to wrong results. Often one who hold such a view will insist on seeing the "study" of the Buddha's teachings as being a matter of indulging in `thinking' and so imo, fall prey to the `self serving' process you allude to. Even when others have stated over and over again the importance of making the distinction between concept and reality and pariyatti and patipatti, still they see what they like to see, hence their own views perpetuate and strengthen. Now what about the idea of "concentration" as being necessary for insight? Concentration as a mental factor arises with all cittas, while sati and panna does so only with kusala. So I think at least, that it makes more sense to say `develop kusala' than to say `develop concentration'. And kusala being either samatha or vipassana, and since the former has `concept' as object while the latter a reality, it makes sense here to then prefer the latter. It is here that the realities of sati and panna are and must be developed. It is not right then to think in terms of development of jhana and making a connection between this and vipassana. Besides jhana being an extremely high level of kusala, we thinking about it is giving room for much delusion to happen, and in the end one gets neither the good results of samatha nor vipassana. There is another line of thinking; the one states to the effect that one's mind must be calm, kusala, in order that it then can perceive realities as they are. This is similar to the one that states that the Buddha taught a revolutionary kind of Jhana, one that is *used* in tandem with vipassana in order that one may then penetrate the Tilakkhana. In this case one is misunderstanding the path of development of sati and panna and how these are accumulated and what panna can and must know. It is a denial of the fact about natural decisive support condition, which states to the effect that sati and panna arises by complex sets conditions, and depending on the accumulations, any and all objects are equally valid. This idea also encourages a practice other than satipatthana, i.e. samatha or rather what one understands samatha to be, since one thinks that this is *needed*. Of course all levels of kusala support each other, however it is one thing to understand this, but another to reason incorrectly about their connection and worse, be so driven by the need for results, to end up "doing" something about it! Regarding `conventional effort', perhaps because many observe the apparent relationship between cause and effect in conventional reality, think that the same relationship is in the development of satipatthana too. Putting an effort to meditate is like learning how to swim or study to pass the university exams. But like concentration, effort too can be either kusala or akusala. And here again it is due to reasoning falsely and making wrong connections. I would like to say more, but am in a rush. In conclusion though, I would state that behind all the above is "wrong view". Often I get the impression that certain people of other religions may be better off, since they may sincerely be developing other forms of kusala. But a Buddhist who mistakenly connects the development of samatha and jhana with attaining vipassana and goes about "doing" it, is not going to receive any fruits. I have taken the liberty to express myself without reservation since I am addressing you Herman, but I am open to corrections by anyone. I can't recall some apparently important points to make, and because of this I feel that something is amiss. :-) Metta, Sukinder 49502 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:57am Subject: Botanical Gardens - Conventional Sila and Solitude egberdina Hi all, I remarked that Jon did not sound at all Australian. He told me he had been thought of as a national of just about every English speaking country, except Australia. I think we settled on South Africa as the most likely source of his accent :-) Prompted by him. Jon gently probed re my frequent writing about solitude. (It has been some time, the recollection will no longer be accurate. Please edit as you see fit, Jon & Sarah). I remarked that the requirements of conventional sila are nothing but mental agitation, whether known or not. The constant attention to how others react to you and how you believe you should react to others prevents any awareness of reality. In physical solitude, such requirements vanish. I'm hoping I said the following. The mind is a social product. Do the obvious. Look, over there is a tree, an empty opera house (the next performance isn't until tonight :-) J & S made sure I understood they rather like their unprompted, out of the blue, bolts of sati. -- It is dawning on me, yet again, that my posts are causing all sorts of problems for others. I think I'll concentrate on being autistic for a while, like Sangamaji (Udana 1.8). Unlike him, I won't be autistic in public. Ciao. Herman -- There is ego, but not a self who has it. (Hofman H. 2005) 49503 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 514 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) There are 12 maggangas or 12 path-factors. They are 1. samma-ditthi or right-view 2. samma-sankappa or right-thinking 3. samma-vaca or right speech 4. samma-kammanta or right action 5. samma-ajiva or right livelihood 6. samma-vayama or right effort 7. samma-sati or right mindfulness 8. samma-samadhi or right concentration 9. miccha-ditthi or wrong-view 10.miccha-sankappa or wrong thinking 11.miccha-vayama or wrong effort 12.miccha-samadhi or wrong concentration These last 4 path-factors are called miccha-magganga. Because they help reaching other side through the path which are not samma-magganga. But they are all akusala dhamma. Because they help akusala dhamma arise. When there is micchaa-ditthi or wrong-view this serves as a path- factor that help sending to other side (accomplish the task of akusala). This means that when there is micchaa-ditthi there always is akusala because of it. It serves as a path-factor. Likewsie micchaa-sankappa or wrong-thinking also help akusala dhamma arise and this miccha-sankappa or vitakka push to do akusala dhamma. It also serves as a path-factor and because of this akusala dhamma are done and accomplished. Miccha-vayama or wrong-effort and miccha-samadhi or wrong concentrations are required to implement akusala actions like killing, stealing, misuse of sensuous pleasure and they both are also path-factors or maggangas. But they and other 2 above are all akusala magganga. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49504 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > In 'THE BUDDHA AND HIS TEACHINGS' by Venerable Nārada, there is also > a useful chapter on rebirth (CHAPTER 28,HOW REBIRTH TAKES PLACE) with the > well-known quote from Questions of King Milinda: > According to Buddhism, living beings are infinite in number, and so are > world systems. Nor is the impregnated ovum the only route to rebirth. > Earth, an almost insignificant speck in the universe, is not the only > habitable plane, and humans are not the only living beings. [9] As such it > is not impossible to believe that there will always be an appropriate > place to receive the last thought vibrations. A point is always ready to > receive the falling stone." " > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= I hope you are sitting down: I agree with you here! (doesn't happen too often ;-)) Rebirth has to be instantaneous. The belief in a 'Bardo' between lifetimes must have arisen from previous, non- Buddhist beliefs in Tibet because the Buddha didn't teach of any such state. Metta, James 49505 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:51am Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > On Buddhaghosa: > > > > I tried to do some research on the Internet for the source where I > > read this information and I can't find it. I think I read it in a > > pdf document and can't place the document right now. I wrote an e- > > mail to a scholar monk in Sri Lanka, who's an editor for BPS, and > > asked him this question. When I get a reply I will let you know. > ... > S: Please do. I haven't received a reply from him yet so I think he must be too busy or not interested in entering the controversy. However, see the post which Herman sent to me which supports my contention. > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s You mentioned a couple of times that Buddhaghosa was not himself > enlightened. He may not have been an arahant, but do you have any evidence > to suggest he was not an ariyan disciple (i.e sotapanna or higher)? > ========== No. I didn't write anything about that. Not sure if he was an ariyan disciple, just know that the research points out that he wasn't enlightened- as he wrote himself in one of his writings. Metta, James 49506 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:04am Subject: Re: e-card from Belief sukinderpal Hi Herman, I'd like to rephrase the below. > Thinking engenders more thinking and in the end, the knowing is also > via thinking, but one believes otherwise. It is the same story > with `formal sitting', a wrong thinking giving rise to wrong results. Believing in the stories conditioned by the thinking engenders more thinking and believing. Any knowing is never direct but just more thinking, and one mistakes what is not sati to be sati. It is the same process with the idea of 'formal sitting', a wrong thinking giving rise to wrong results. Metta, Sukinder 49507 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:05am Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (& Phil), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > > The Metta Sutta: > > > > This is what should be done > > By one who is skilled in goodness, > <...> > ... > S: There is a lot we could discuss further on the Metta Sutta. I believe > metta has to be developed like other wholesome qualities -- not by trying > to emulate the truly wise and noble. > > For example, starting with the first two lines, what does it mean 'by one > who is skilled in goodness'? > > There is lots of detail in the commentary, summarised as: > > "Herein those 'with skill in good', praised either in so far as they are > established in the virtue that provides non-remorse, or [in so far as] > they exert themselves in the 'way of suppression of defilement', [or in so > far as they attain] the paths and fruitions, are 'those with skill in > good' in this sense.' And those bhikkhus were of such kinds." > > The bhikkhus addressed were ripe for attaining the various jhanas and > becoming arahants too. James: Sarah, that is not what this commentary states. Those who are 'skilled in good' includes those who are "established in virtue that provides non-remorse" OR those other types of ariyan disciples. In other words, this sutta is addressed to anyone who follows the five precepts. > > We should know whether there really can be universal metta right now or > whether there can just be the understanding and development of metta in > our daily lives as we meet and speak to people around us. James: Yes, we should know that. And the answer is that there can be both: universal metta and daily metta. > .... > > James: I think that this sutta pretty much speaks for itself. It is > > unambiguous. One should cherish all beings: radiating kindness over > > the entire world; spreading upwards to the skies, and downwards to > > the depths; outwards and unbounded. AND One should sustain this > > recollection. We are not talking about a few occurrances of > > spontaneous metta, we are talking about a sublime abiding. > .... > S: A sublime abiding that has to be developed with understanding. I think > this sutta is very deep indeed. Some people may sit quietly and think they > are radiating kindness to the entire world and yet be annoyed by family > members if they are interrupted or disturbed by traffic when they leave > the temple. In this case, is it really metta? James: No. What is your point? Some other person could go to the temple and really radiate metta to the entire world and not be disturbed when family members interrupt and also be peaceful in traffic when they leave the temple. You have set up a faulty argument. > > As I said before, I think we all have to find out for ourselves, but I > know that much of what I used to take for being metta was simply > attachment to tranquil feelings and to people around me. James: Too bad for you; you should have kept practicing. The perfection of metta isn't going to happen the first time it is attempted or even overnight. Just because you have rotten experiences doesn't mean everyone else will or does. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= Metta, James 49509 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Herman - Thanks to Herman for presenting an important issue on heart-base and raising the question whether everything in the commentaries and Commentaries are trustworthy (without an exception). Herman: As a brief summary for those without the time or inclination to read the essay, the author argues, from the texts, that the Buddha was silent on the seat of consciousness, but that from various others references the conclusion that the whole body (namarupa) is the seat of consciousness is not unwarranted. [ quoted from the essay whose link was given by Herman: ] "If our analysis is correct, then we must see the identification of the heart-base as the seat of consciousness during the post-Buddhian period as a gross misrepresentation of the Buddha, in violation of the Buddha's advice not to be led by "tradition" or "the authority of religious texts" (Kaalaama Sutta) ." Nina: The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness- element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them.... The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 111,112) states that the heart-base is to be found on dependance on the blood, inside the heart. It is of no use to speculate where exactly the heart-base is. Tep: Your reply is a rejection of the main point in the posted message by Herman, preferring the "definition" in the Visuddhimagga. Your reasoning goes as follows: Nina: We may not experience the heart-base, but if there would be no heart-base we could not think at this moment, we could not know which objects we are experiencing, we could not feel happy or unhappy. In the planes of existence where there are nama and rupa all cittas must have a physical base, they cannot arise outside the body. Tep: THat sounds like an argument, it is not an authoritative proof. How do you know, Nina, that it is not the "whole body" that is the "seat of consciousness"? Or something else beside the "heart- base"? Why only the "heart-base" (an imagined object) can be the seat of consciousness where objects are experienced? Only this is right, all others are false? We need to look at the suttas to find the answer, or reject the heart- basis issue altogether if there is no sutta ecidence to support it. What do you think, Herman? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > I appreciate it that you go over the posts on heartbase, making a study of it. Do not overlook Rob K's useful posts on the subject. I am joining you in the springcleaning. > I quote some of my rupas: > (snipped) 49510 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW nilovg Hi Tep, I am weary to debate, because before we had too many debates about this subject. I hope you do not mind this. Nina. op 31-08-2005 15:12 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep: How do you know, Nina, that it is not the "whole body" that is > the "seat of consciousness"? Or something else? Why only the "heart- > base" (an imagined object) can be the seat of consciousness where > objects are experienced? Only this is right, all others are false? 49511 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I did not mean to debate with you at all -- how about calling it "fact finding"? But all of it is up to you; no discussion can be done by a single person. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I am weary to debate, because before we had too many debates about this > subject. I hope you do not mind this. > Nina. > op 31-08-2005 15:12 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Tep: How do you know, Nina, that it is not the "whole body" that is > > the "seat of consciousness"? Or something else? Why only the "heart- > > base" (an imagined object) can be the seat of consciousness where > > objects are experienced? Only this is right, all others are false? 49512 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:08am Subject: Re: Dhamma notes to Htoo 1 (Hindrances) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comment. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, I'm slowly catching up with all your posts sent while we were away. A few random comments on those I've read to date (of course, just my personal impressions clouded with the usual ignorance only:-) Dhamma Thread series posts – I find these truly excellent and I like your presentation with repetition too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Emphasis: This repeatition is for those who are new comers amd for those who like repeatition. Those who know my style of presentation can skip the repeated part simply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Nivaranas –hindrances: It's true as you stress that for the attainment of jhana and development of samatha, all the hindrances are stressed. I wonder whether we shouldn't just stress ignorance as the main hindrance in the development of satipatthana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To be honest, I am not familiar with the usage of your last sentence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: B.Bodhi's Guide note on the hindrances: "According to the commentary the hindrances are mental factors which prevent unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do not allow arisen wholesome states to endure. The first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the attainment of the jhanas, the sixth hindrance [S: ignorance] is the major obstacle to the arising of wisdom." S: Also, from the Netti-ppakara.na'm, translated as `The Guide' (PTS), 66: " `By ignorance is the world shut in' is the answer to `[Tell] what is the world shut in by?'. The world is shut in by hindrances; for all creatures have ignorance as their [in-shutting] hindrance, according as the Blessed One said .." Also, same text, 499: "Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the roundabout (cf S ii, 178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now among men." S: I also think we need to stress that all states need to be known and can only be known when they arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for evidences that you drew out. I agree with your comment. Arisen dhamma when known only then it is known as experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: So, for example, if citta with wrong view doesn't arise, it can't be known. The same applies to all the other nivarana – they can only be known when they arise and in this sense are not a hindrance to the development of satipatthana, but are dhammas that have to be the objects of satipatthana in order to be eventually eradicated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with you. But I think Robert K may have different view on this matter. It would be nice to start with a new heading asking Robert K about this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I liked your discussion with Joop on kinds of bhava tanha. Again, the latent tendency can never be eradicated unless the particular kind of tanha (attachment) in question arises and is known with wisdom and detachment. Just because it's not apparent, does not mean the tendency is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the area of tough. Dhamma is not there. But tendency is there. Tendency dhamma is there. So anusaya is there. So anusaya dhamma is there. So dhamma is there. How tough! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Finally, a good comment of yours on avijja-nivarana or `ignorance hindrances': H: "This is subtle dhamma. All jhana including 5 ruupa jhaana and 4 aruupa jhaana do not have any trace of moha or ignorance. But without the knowledge given by the Buddha no one will see anatta. This inability to see anatta is a hindrance. This hindrance is avijja-nivarana." Thank you for all your posts in the DT series. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your support. Actually there are many seeing- teachers/hearing-teachers here in this list. You may notice that I was a bad user and a bad writer and I could not even spell Pali correctly. But anyway things have been improved. Thank you for all your comments and support. With Metta, Htoo Naing > ========= 49513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:15am Subject: Re: Dhamma notes to Htoo 3 (Restlessness) htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, Perhaps I misunderstand your post #48939. I read you as suggesting that "restlessness (S: i.e uddhacca?) does not arise at all time even in cases of akusala." We know uddhacca arises even with subtle attachment or wrong concentration. Perhaps you're talking here about conventionally understood restlessness? Metta, Sarah ========= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, I agree with the post 'Reply Htoo 2'. So I do not reply that. Here in your reply 'Htoo 3', yes, I just meant conventional one. I think this will be more understandable. Uddhacca or restlessness does arise with each and every akusala, no doubt. But in this post, I just suggested 'hindrance of restlessness'. All other hindrances do have 'restlessness or uddhacca' but they are not called 'uddhacca nivarana'. So I had to write it in conventional sense. With much respect, Htoo Naing 49514 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:56am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta,... / What is Understanding? buddhistmedi... Hi, KenH (Nina, James, Matheesha, Herman, Htoo, Jon, and Phil)- I misplaced one paragrah and made a few typing errors in my message #49491. So please replace that message by the one below. I am sorry for the errors. [Corrected Message ] I carefully studied your message # 49445 and found that you had been confused about "right understanding". You have shown a tendency to get mixed up and be unable to differentiate among "right understanding", ordinary understanding in a worldling, and right view (samma-ditthi). Dear Ken, to show to you that I am not making a false accusation, and that I am not your enemy either, please read your own comments below. After that please study the quoted passages from the Visuddhimagga and also from the selected few suttas below: they are all about understanding and right view. Without removing such confusions from your mind, our communication will always break down (again and again). KenH's Comments in DSG #49445 ====================== 1. "And as to this, right understanding comes first. And how does right understanding come first? Right thought proceeds from right understanding, right speech proceeds from right thought, right action proceeds from . . ." [Mahacattarisaka Sutta, MN 117] 2. "I have it firmly planted in my head that, in a moment of Path- consciousness, samma-ditthi conditions the other factors by some kind of "prior-arising" condition. Then, they all condition each other by some kind of "co-arising" condition". 3. { Tep's quote from Vism I, 3 The Blessed One said : `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. } "Your quote begins with, "When a wise man," and I take it to mean literally what it says: the man was wise before he became established in virtue, and before he developed Magga-citta and supramundane Right understanding". 4. "Before we can begin to develop dana sila and bhavana we need a degree of understanding. A child has to understand it is good to share and bad to be stingy; good to look after his sister and bad to hit her; good to be sensible and bad to be silly". 5. "But real (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is conditioned to arise. 6. "Clearly, you believe something more than right understanding is required. You also believe that the "something more" does not proceed from right understanding, but rather, right understanding proceeds from it. To my mind, that is contrary to what I have read in the suttas". Tep's Friendly Discussion of KenH's Confusions ============================= In your comment 1. the correct Pali for "right understanding" is 'samma- ditthi', the first path factor, which is indeed the forerunner of all other 7 factors. But the term "understanding' in the Vism. is the translation of the Pali 'panna'. There is no such a thing like 'samma-panna' as one of the path factors. Beyond the 8 path factors, there are 2 more path factors for the Arahant as explained in part (3) of MN 117 below : samma-ditthi, samma-sankappa, samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, samma-ajiva, samma vayama, samma-sati, samma-samadhi, samma-nana, samma- vimutti. There is the 'right knowledge' (samma-nana) that is a kind of panna(understanding) at the Arahatta-magga level. I agree with your comment 2. about the "prior arising" and "co-arising" conditions of sama-ditthi, because that's what MN 117 says too. Your comment 3. does not make sense because of the invented terminologies. The "supramundane Right understanding" is not in the 10 path factors of MN 117. So where shall we find it in the suttas? (Comment 4) You got mixed up here. The term panna in the sutta and the Visuddhimagga does not the same meaning as the ordinary English word "understanding". See the extracts from the Visuddhimagga below, please. In your comment 5. are you talking about the first path factor, right view, that supports right concentration as stated in MN 117? Is your "real (paramattha) meditation" supported by "right understanding"? Is "real (paramattha) meditation" the same as samma-samadhi? But samma- samadhi is supported by the other 7 path factors, according to MN 117. See how confusing it is? In comment 6. this "right understanding" must not be "right view", the 1st path factor, as you sated in Comment 1. The "something more" that I was talking about means all the 7 other path factors plus the two later samma-nana and samma-vimutti. So, clearly, you have been confused about "right understanding". The Vism. passages and the sutta excerpts below should be helpful for you, and please read more carefully in order to disentangle your tangle. Understandings and Right View from the Visuddhimagga =================================== 'Develop consciousness and understanding' : develop both concentration and insight. For it is concentrationthat is described here under the heading of 'consciousness', and insight under that of 'understanding'. Vism. I, 7. 'The purifying of one's own mind that is the Buddhas' dispensation' (DHP 183), and because understanding is its culmination, understanding is the end of the dispensation. Vism. I, 10. "And likewise the reason for the states of stream-entry and once-return is shown by virtue; that for the state of non-return, by concentration; that for Arahantship by understanding". Vism. I, 14. Understanding and Right View from Selected Suttas ================================ I. Maha-cattarisaka Sutta, MN 117: ------------------------------------- (1) "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. (2) "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. (3) "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten". II. AN IX.44 Pannavimutti Sutta --------------------------------- "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." Tep's Note: Panna or "understanding" by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and "discernment" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu are the same. The above understanding that is connected to 'vimutti' should indeed be called "right understanding" III. SN XLVIII.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta ------------------------------------------ "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually present: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment". Tep: The faculty of discernment is Panna Indriya. It is not the same as samma-ditthi, it is very much the same as the dhammanupassana of the four Noble Truths in DN 22. DN 22: "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.' ---------------------------------------- Thank you for having read this far! Peace, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: (snipped) > > Tep: How do you put intellectual understanding to produce mundane > insight and finally full penetration? By practicing (e.g. using Maha- > satipatthana Sutta), of course. Practicing is developing. Development > is heedful. > ------------------ > > There is no self that 'practises' or 'produces insight.' This must be > understood at all stages of Dhamma study. It might produce some > confusing moments - "How can I practice if there is no self that can > practise?" - but it is only when we understand anatta that we can > progress at all. Nothing will be achieved by retaining a belief in > self, however practical it may seem. > > Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, KenH (Nina, James, Matheesha, Herman, Htoo, Jon, and Phil)- > > I carefully studied your message # 49445 and found that you had been > confused about "right understanding". You have shown a tendency to > get mixed up and being unable to differentiate among "right > understanding", ordinary understanding in a worldling, and right view > (samma-ditthi). > 49515 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the busy body dhamma_service Hi Tep, I took the passage to mean "meditation" in a broad sense of the four foundations of mindfulness, of which anapanasati is just one of the themes. Luang Pu could have been addressing many things with that passage: 1) busy lay people who claim they have no time to meditate 2) busy lay people misplacing priorities and choosing to do worldly things intead of meditating 3) possibly alluding to meditation being as important as breathing is to our health, if not more important. 4) possibly implying that dedicated sitting meditation is only a small part of meditation, and a constant application and dwelling in the 4 foudations of mindfulness can be done even by busy lay person. A busy layperson complained to ajahn Chah that they were too busy and could find no time for meditation, to which Ajahn Chah responded, "Then when will you find the time? After you die?" -fk -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:36 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the busy body Hi, Frank - When you read this Luangpu's dhamma, what do you understand? Is this about breathing meditation (anapanasati), or breathing as the object of satipatthana in the present moment, or simply about meditation that is a part of life the same way as breathing is? Or something else? Thanking you in advance, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > . "If you have time to breathe, you have time to meditate." > > > > > > -Luang Pu 49516 From: "frank" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:14am Subject: dhamma soup for the joyful dhamma_service to sit carefree in a grove of trees for silent removal of all evils and attainment of a mind that's still earns bliss that is above the heavens. all men seek only worldly weal caused by good clothes and bedding, but such happiness is insecure for desire can never be satisfied. to wear the sangha robe frees one from all cares and brings one-mindedness in stillness and disturbance. with wisdom clear and bright one contemplates reality that underlies all things. thus all the vast variety of things impartially can be looked into. with wisdom realized, the mind is still; in the three worlds there's no comparison. [from Nagarjuna's commentary on prajnaparamita] 49517 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:21am Subject: Re: Dhamma notes to Htoo 4 (Beads - internal and external) htootintnaing Dear Sarah (attention to Nina), Thanks for your comments on 'satipatthaana' series. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, Nina and Lodewijk, I have many more reservations about your satipatthana series (as you'd expect:-)), but will just pick up one point for now as it relates to a comment Nina made too. (Btw, I think the post #49043 acts as a very good summary of the content of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. Thank you.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for comment. At another list, someone said it is good but provoke the needs for further studying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: The point I want to pick up on relates to the comments you often make in many of the posts in this series concerning 'internal' and 'external'. For example, in #49041, you write: "16 cittas or 16 contemplations is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another set of 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally." S: I'd like to ask you: How do you see the arising and falling away of cittas 'in other individuals'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. This is impossible. This also includes Sammasambuddhas. But Sammaasambuddhas perceive real-time dhamma as they arise unlike other beings. This is also discussion for some later comments. When I say external this means that 'The meditator perceives that these dhammas that have arisen in him/her will also be arising and passing away in other individuals.' Sammaasambuddhas when they are in abhi~n~naa they perceive in real time perception. But these perceptions are all their own perceptions that arise in them that is along with the power of jhaana or abhi~n~naa. No one can know dhamma that arise in others. What is knwon through 'paracitta-vijjaanana' is just through own mind. It is not the direct perception of dhammas in other individuals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Likewise, how does the practitioner perceive the 4 elements arising in others' body (your post #48869)and so on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Discussed above. For such perceptions one does not need to watch others or does not need to specifically think about others. But the perceptions do arise in their own accord. These are elements that exist in so called 'my own body'. Such dhammas will also exist in other individuals. Such dhamma will exist both in 'me' and 'others'. This is perception of own mind and thoughts or dhamma that arise at own mind-door. This is not about perception of dhamma that arise at other individuals. This is impossible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Nina recently raised the same topic which we also discussed some time ago too, I believe. She wrote: [Nina:]"I said that I heard Kh Sujin saying that in the Satipatthanasutta it is said that there should be awareness of feelings internally, of one's own, but also externally, of someone else. The same with awareness of citta: internally, and externally. She explained that when we are with others we cannot help noticing their feelings and moods. These can be the means for us to be aware of the present reality. It may be thinking, or our own feeling, or our reactions to others." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not agree with Nina, here. We do not need to watch others to sense their feeling or their consciousness. And we do not need to specifically think on others' feeling and consciousness. Even when this is done it is not others' consciousness that we know but we just know our own mind and our own senses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** S: In other words, the objects of satipatthana always refer to 'our own'cittas, cetasikas and rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Sati can never be aware of another's cittas, cetasikas and rupas (unless we're Buddhas or have special abhinnas) and pa~n~naa can never know another's cittas, cetasikas and rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, this also includes The Buddha. I have already discussed this above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: However, these dhammas which arise and can be known may be on account of what is seen or heard or experienced here or there, 'internally' or 'externally', until eventually all idea of self or selves is eradicated. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Nina added: "Lodewijk said that this is a social aspect mostly forgotten. We can use everything that comes our way, no selection. I gave as example that we may see someone else who is sad and crying. Then we may also become sad, and there can be awareness of our own feelings." **** S: This is the point: it is not awareness of the other's sadness, but awareness of our own feelings that has to be developed, no matter what the story or conditions for their arising might be. Usually, when we consider ideas of social aspects, it's a story about others rather than awareness of the present dhammas, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... N: Lodewijk remarked that satipatthana is not theory that it encroaches on our daily life. It would be good if Sarah and Jon could discuss this subject more when in Noosa and also in Bgk! We can always learn more. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good Nina. Sarah, will you? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: S: I raised it briefly in Bangkok and gave a brief summary of my understanding. K.Sujin just agreed with it and didn't add more. Whenever friends raise questions about social issues or engaged Buddhism, her response is to check whether they really understand about namas and rupas appearing now. I think that the understanding of seeing, visible object and presently arising dhammas answers all these issues. I agree wholeheartedly with Lodewijk that this is not theory, it's daily life now as we speak and write -- whether with or without people around us! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. Thanks Lodewijk. :-) I do not know how to pronounce this name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I'll look forward to any further comments on any of these posts. Metta, Sarah ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. With respect, Htoo Naing 49518 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: Dhamma notes to Htoo 6 (Cetasikas - lobha) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo (& Nina), > > You asked Nina and I some questions in #49103 following a short extract > from her book. I'd like to add a few further comments even though Nina > already wrote a full answer. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, This is to say both 'reply 5 & reply 6' are agreed. No further comments on those two replies. Thanks for your full feed back. With much respect, Htoo Naing 49519 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: Dhamma notes to Htoo 8 (siilabbata-paraamaasa & wrong views) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I'll just recommend one more of your DT posts in particular: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48754 > > H: "If there is wrong view in mind while observing such things like > worshiping corpse, remnants or corpse, heap of earthy ground, tomb > are all 'siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' or 'ritualistic > observatory firm-holding body-knot'. < snip > Metta, Sarah p.s As I said, I think there are many more aspects related to the Satipatthana Sutta and Bead threads to discuss later:-)) > ========= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, So far I have read all 8 posts and replied all. When some are totally agreed I replied along with another reply posts. With respect, Htoo Naing 49520 From: nina Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:50am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 49521 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 515 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 4. the stock of faculties (indriya) Indriya means 'faculty'. It means 'ruling principle' 'controlling principle' 'determining principle' 'governing principle' 'might' 'strength' 'directive force' 'faculty function'. Examples are there are many ministers in a country and these ministers each have their own power to rule in their respective affairs. These indriyas are governing principles. There are 22 indriyas or 22 faculties. They are 1. cakkundriya (cakkhu + indriya)_personal potentiality of vision 2. sotindriya (sota + indriya_ear) 3. ghanindriya(ghaana + indriya_nose) 4. jivhindriya(jivhaa + indriya_tongue) 5. kaayindriya(kaaya + indriya_body) 6. manindriya (mana + indriya_mind) 7. jivitindriya (jiivita + indriya_vitality) 8. itthindriya (itthi + indriya_feminity) 9. purisindriya(purisa + indriya_masculinity) 10. sukhindriya (sukha + indriya_pleasure) 11. dukkhindriya(dukkha + indriya_pain) 12. somanassindriya (somanassa + indriya_joy) 13. domanassindriya (domanassa + indriya_grief) 14. upekkhindriya (upekkha + indriya_hedonic indifference) 15. saddhindriya (saddha + indriya_faith) 16. viriyindriya (viriya + indriya_energy) 17. satindriya (sati + indriya_mindfulness) 18. samaadhindriya (samaadhi + indriya_concentration) 19. pannindriya (pannaa + indriya_cognitional/reason) 20. anannatannassamitindriya_thought,I shall come to know the unknown 21. a~n~nindriya(annaa + indriya_gnosis) 22. a~n~naataavindriya (annaatavi + indriya_one who knows) The first 5 indriyas are all pancappasaada or 5 sensitivities of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and they all are ruupa. The 6th indriya is all 'consciousness' or 'mind' and it is naama. The 7th indriya is a mixture. It is jiivitindriya cetasika, which is naama and jivita ruupa, which is ruupa. As a faculty they both are called jiivitindriya. The 8th and 9th indriyas are physical sexual faculties and they both are ruupa. The 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th 14th are all vedana cetasikas and they are all naama dhamma. The 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th are 4 indriyas out of 5 indriyas that work fully in Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. The 5th component of 5 Bodhipakkhiya-indriya is pannindriya cetasika. Here pannidriya cetasikas appear in 4 positions in indriya dhamma. They are 19th, 20th, 21st, and 22nd indriya. Even though these 4 indriyas are pannaa cetasika there are differences between each other. The 19th indriya is pannindriya that works in worldly dhamma. The 20th indriya is called 'anannatannassamitindriya'. It is 'ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiiti + indriya'. A~n~naa means 'gnosis' 'know'. Anannaa means 'the unknown' or 'the things that have not been known before'. Anannatannassaamiiti = annaa + anna + assa + iti. This actually refers to 'pannindriya cetasika' that arises with sotapatti magga naana or citta. When this magga citta arises, panna cetasika in that citta helps citta to know 'what have not been known before'. 21st indriya is a~n~nindriya. It is gnosis or knowing. Here it refers to all pannaa that arise with 'the middle 6 lokuttara cittas'. The earliest lokuttara citta that arises is sotapatti magga citta and panna in that citta is called 'anannatannassamitindriya'. The final lokuttara citta that arises in arahatta phala citta and the panna in that citta is called 'a~n~naataavindriya' or 'one who knows. Here arahats know everything regarding Dhamma. So panna in arahatta phala citta is called 'annaataavindriya. There are 'the middle 6 lokuttara cittas'. They are 1. sotapatti phala citta or stream-entering-fruition-consciousness 2. sakadaagaami magga citta or once-returning-path-consciousness 3. sakadaagaami phala citta or once-returning-fruition-consciousness 4. anaagaami magga citta or non-returning-path-consciousness 5. anaagaami phala citta or non-returning-fruition-consciousness 6. arahatta magga citta or eradicating-path-consciousness. The panna in these 6 consciousness are called 'a~n~nindriya' or 'gnosis' or 'know'. Among these 22 indriyas some are purely ruupa dhamma. Some are purely naama dhamma. One is a mixture of naama and ruupa. Vedana or feeling appears in 5 indriyas and pannaa or wisdom appears in 4 indriyas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW nilovg Hi Tep, OK factfinding :-)) and springcleaning with Herman. But in UP there are lots of posts about heartbase, it will be repetition. Nina. op 31-08-2005 17:56 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I did not mean to debate with you at all -- how about calling it "fact > finding"? 49523 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for the busy body buddhistmedi... Hi, Frank - Thank you for giving the good answer with possibilities. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > Hi Tep, > I took the passage to mean "meditation" in a broad sense of the four > foundations of mindfulness, of which anapanasati is just one of the themes. > Luang Pu could have been addressing many things with that passage: > 1) busy lay people who claim they have no time to meditate > 2) busy lay people misplacing priorities and choosing to do worldly things intead of meditating > 3) possibly alluding to meditation being as important as breathing is to our health, if not more important. > 4) possibly implying that dedicated sitting meditation is only a small part of meditation, and a constant application and dwelling in the 4 foudations of mindfulness can be done even by busy lay person. > > A busy layperson complained to ajahn Chah that they were too busy and could find no time for meditation, to which Ajahn Chah responded, "Then when will you find the time? After you die?" > > -fk > (snipped) 49524 From: "colette" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 0:35pm Subject: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Colette (and Herman) - > > Welcome to the emptiness forum that will soon be empty. colette: maybe you just never noticed me since "emptiness" is such a consuming thing. Maybe it consumed your consciuosness. ---------------------------- > > >colette: there is no beyond when the emptiness of everything is > >considered. colette: what is so hard about that statement? If emptiness exists then why ponder it in reference to your objects? This is as good a place as any to bring into debate my meditations. It took me several months to read a simple paper called "Bhavaviveka's Svatantra-anumana and Its Soteriological Implications" and that was just to get through it. I'll read it again some time in the future. But this shows you that I do have difficulty reading and interpreting things. Trian of thought lost. "and if I---being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if ther is no self--were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now nowt exist?" NO SELF. toodles, colette 49525 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Contemplation of the Noble Truths & Right View buddhistmedi... Hi, all DSG Friends - The Buddha said with confirmation that contemplation of the four Noble Truths would result in eradication of the first three fetters(samyojana). Thus one would become a Sotapanna, according to MN2. MN 2: "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. The following two suttas are about the same thing. Panna indriya is the same as dhammanupassana (contemplation) of the ariya-sacca (four Noble Truths). SN XLVIII.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta ---------------------------------------------------- "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually present: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment". DN 22: Maha-satipatthana Sutta ---------------------------------------------- "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.' What is right view? -------------------------- Right view is the first path factor. The knowledge of the four Noble Truths is samma-ditthi, according to the Buddha. "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. [DN 22] Therefore, the knowledge of the four Noble Truths alone, without dhammanupassana of the four Noble Truths, does not lead to Sotapanna !! Would you disagree with such deduction? Warm regards, Tep ============= 49526 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens - Conventional Sila and Solitude corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi all, > It is dawning on me, yet again, that my posts are causing all sorts of > problems for others. > > I think I'll concentrate on being autistic for a while, like Sangamaji > (Udana 1.8). Unlike him, I won't be autistic in public. Hi Herman I hope the above isn't referring to me! (-: I'm actually very grateful you gave me an unequivocal reply (although I didn't like it at first). It is needed from time to time. I'm just about to leave for the city for a few days (if I can finish my preparations). But I do intend to reflect upon and post what I think are the assumptions and propositions underlying my thinking about Dhamma. A good exercise, don't you think? With feedback from you and Howard and my other DSG friends, more understanding may result. So don't go quiet on me just yet, my friend!! Till next week ... Best wishes Andrew T 49527 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - I almost overlooked your post since I did not see 'Tep' in the first line. The 'Hi, Tep' messages always draw my first attention. colette: what is so hard about that statement? If emptiness exists then why ponder it in reference to your objects? Tep: Let me try to answer your questions with my 'one-cent' wisdom. Emptiness in the sense of being free from the perception of "mine, me, myself" is within. That's why it is so hard to understand. It comes only gradually. Let me tell you a little true story of mine. I have a wallpaper software that changes the picture on my desktop once every morning. Today after I turned the computer on, a golden Buddha image appeared on my screen. I was filled with joy. But as I reflected on the joy, I knew that it was not conditioned by the Buddhanassati. It was a joy that is not free from grasping because (deep down) I thought that the image was my lucky sign, some kind of superstition I had since the time I was young and living in Thailand. Then I realized that through the reflection (contemplation) I understood the atta/anatta principle more than before. The grasping on an object of desire as mine is due to greed that is associated with the perception of self (atta-sanna). Thus whenever the atta-ditthi( 'ego-belief') has not been eliminated, I'll fail to clearly see the truth of anatta. Colette: It took me several months to read a simple paper called "Bhavaviveka's Svatantra-anumana and Its Soteriological Implications" and that was just to get through it. I'll read it again some time in the future. Tep: Please tell me about what you have learned whenever you are through with the reading. Colette: "and if I---being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if ther is no self--were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?" NO SELF. Tep: The self (atta) view is an extreme one, and the no self view is another extreme. The middle-path avoids both. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > This is as good a place as any to bring into debate my meditations. > It took me several months to read a simple paper > called "Bhavaviveka's Svatantra-anumana and Its Soteriological > Implications" and that was just to get through it. I'll read it again > some time in the future. But this shows you that I do have difficulty > reading and interpreting things. > 49528 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDDHA'S VIEW buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for your reply. > Nina: OK factfinding :-)) and springcleaning with Herman. > But in UP there are lots of posts about heartbase, it will be repetition. Great! I'll take a quick look at it. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, 49529 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, - Connie gazita2002 hello Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > hi, Azita > > ....snipped..... > > And from death [onwards] the materiality producible in future > > existences, whether produced in the immediately next existence or > at the end > > of a hundred thousand ko.tis of aeons, is all called future. The > materiality > > which occurs between death and rebirth is called present. > > > A. probably a typo, as this last sentence has me a little puzzled. > Should it read 'bet. rebirth and death is called present'.? > if not, then could you give more explanation on this please Nina. > > c: because it rules out the intermediate state the way it is, maybe. > > peace, > connie A. nice to hear from you, and I'm not sure what you mean here, Connie. My puzzlement over this has since been resolved, however if you want to explain your comment, please do. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 49530 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:50pm Subject: Re: Clinging without Attachment? mlnease Hi Nina, Just briefly, more later I hope: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. > Hi Mike, > op 22-08-2005 02:16 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > Any texts >> relating to the same thing regarding 'mental-data craving'? Otherwise >> this >> pertains only to paramattha dhammas and not concepts I think. > ------ > N: Aren't we clinging to persons? That is kaama tanhaa, different from > clinging to jhaanas. Here I think there may be a problem with the word 'clinging'. It seems to me that in some contexts 'upaadaana' has a different connotation if not denotation from 'lobha'. In other words, sometimes (maybe?) clinging means kaama tanhaa and other times identification with the aggregates, not necessarily with attachment. I might think 'this body' or 'this personality' is 'me', even though I don't like it. mike 49531 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavatanhaa, vibhava tanhaa. mlnease Hi Nina, This is a really great answer, much deeper than the question really merited. I'm still digesting it all and will reply when I can. Thanks. mike p.s. Thanks also to Jim if you contact him. By the way, I think your reasoning here:... > When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling without or > with > ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot cling to jhaana or > its > result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to everything, except lokuttara > dhammas. As you mention, when we consider the fetters that are eradicated > at > the stage of arahatship, only then all kinds of clinging to birth are > eradicated. The sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he > knows > this is because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a > ruupa > plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his > attainment of jhaana. ... is sound and consistent with the texts as I understand them. 49532 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:54pm Subject: The Mirror ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Action of Kamma and it's Fruit: Cause & Effect! Helping others, one thereby helps oneself! Harming others, one also harms oneself! Supporting others, one supports oneself! Cheating others, one also cheats oneself! Giving to others, one also gives to oneself! Stealing from others, one steals from oneself! Guarding oneself, one thus protects others... Protecting others, one thus guards oneself... To avoid all Killing. To avoid all Stealing. To avoid all Abuse. To avoid all Lying. To avoid all Alcohol. Is thus to this world the Highest Offer! Avoiding all Evil Doing only Good Purifying the Mind That all Buddhas Teach! Dhammapada 183 http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49533 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:07pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta,... / What is Understanding? kenhowardau Hi Tep, I have the amended version of your reply thank you. I will cut out the summary of my 49445, and start at your comments: -------------- T: > Tep's Friendly Discussion of KenH's Confusions ============================= In your comment 1. the correct Pali for "right understanding" is 'samma-ditthi', the first path factor, which is indeed the forerunner of all other 7 factors. But the term "understanding' in the Vism. is the translation of the Pali 'panna'. There is no such a thing like 'samma-panna' as one of the path factors. Beyond the 8 path factors, there are 2 more path factors for the Arahant as explained in part (3) of MN 117 below : samma-ditthi, samma-sankappa, samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, samma-ajiva, samma vayama, samma-sati, samma-samadhi, samma-nana, samma-vimutti. There is the 'right knowledge' (samma-nana) that is a kind of panna (understanding) at the Arahatta-magga level. ------------- There is only one cetasika that performs the function of right understanding, and that is "amoha." Various synonyms for amoha are used at various times to indicate the specific circumstances in which that cetasika has arisen. As I understand, those circumstances fall into four areas; pativedha (Magga-citta), patipatti (satipatthana) pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) and mundane jhana. I feel sure that amoha is the forerunner in every case. I'm not sure, but I think 'right knowledge' and 'right freedom' might be the arahants' unique realisations; "Done is what had to be done. Of this, there is no more beyond." ----------------- T: > I agree with your comment 2. about the "prior arising" and "co- arising" conditions of sama-ditthi, because that's what MN 117 says too. Your comment 3. does not make sense because of the invented terminologies. The "supramundane Right understanding" is not in the 10 path factors of MN 117. So where shall we find it in the suttas? ----------------- The sutta you have quoted reads: "Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." (end quote) Does that answer your question? The second sort is supramundane (lokuttara), and the first sort is mundane (lokiya). In the fourfold classification I gave, the second sort would be pativedha, and first sort would combine patipatti and pariyatti but not mundane jhana. ---------------------------- T: > (Comment 4) You got mixed up here. The term panna in the sutta and the Visuddhimagga does not the same meaning as the ordinary English word "understanding". See the extracts from the Visuddhimagga below, please. ----------------------------- I didn't get mixed up, but maybe my explanation did. :-) I gave the example of a child's needing to know the meaning of wholesomeness (generosity, harmlessness and mental maturity) before he could be expected to practise it. Perhaps that was too simplistic to illustrate 'panna as forerunner.' (?) ------------------------------------------- T: > In your comment 5. are you talking about the first path factor, right view, that supports right concentration as stated in MN 117? Is your "real (paramattha) meditation" supported by "right understanding"? Is "real (paramattha) meditation" the same as samma- samadhi? But samma-samadhi is supported by the other 7 path factors, according to MN 117. See how confusing it is? --------------------------------------------- Not to me, it isn't. Real, momentarily arising, meditation is what is meant by the Pali word, bhavana. Bhavana occurs in four forms - pativedha, patipatti, pariyatti and mundane jhana. The first three forms owe their existences to the Buddha's teaching, while the fourth form does not. ---------------------- T: > In comment 6. this "right understanding" must not be "right view", the 1st path factor, as you sated in Comment 1. The "something more" that I was talking about means all the 7 other path factors plus the two later samma-nana and samma-vimutti. ---------------------- We are agreed that the other 7 path factors (and the later two) follow on from right understanding. But you seem to be saying there is an aspect of the Path that that does not follow on from right understanding. What is it? -------------------------------- T: > So, clearly, you have been confused about "right understanding". The Vism. passages and the sutta excerpts below should be helpful for you, and please read more carefully in order to disentangle your tangle. Thank you for having read this far! -------------------------------- There are some omissions from your post. Maybe you plan to come back to them, but you seem to have ignored my questions about Bhikkhu Thanissaro, and whether anatta is factual or a mere device (invented by the Buddha to help meditators calm their minds). Perhaps you don't want to be labelled either way and would rather not talk about it. If so, I am sorry but it really is important. If you believe in an eternal soul but don't say so, then our communication problems will never be solved. Ken H 49534 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Botanical Gardens - Conventional Sila and Solitude sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Jon gently probed re my frequent writing about solitude. > > (It has been some time, the recollection will no longer be accurate. > Please edit as you see fit, Jon & Sarah). > > I remarked that the requirements of conventional sila are nothing but > mental agitation, whether known or not. The constant attention to how > others react to you and how you believe you should react to others > prevents any awareness of reality. In physical solitude, such > requirements vanish. .... S: This is a good summary of your comments. I think our point in response in summary was that while it's true that there may be all sorts of agitations or other defilements arising whilst we are interacting with others, such dhammas are just as real as dhammas arising at any other time. To state the obvious, sometimes there are conditions to be interacting and sometimes not. However, either way, there is only the present moment and the various present dhammas that can ever be known. For example, we may decide not to read the mail here, but read it anyway. Or we may decide we won't get distressed, but read a few words and feel distressed anyway. This is all normal daily life and any idea that there would be more awareness of reality if we were not reading mail, interacting or getting distressed is wishful thinking. It is wishful thinking about another situation, about other dhammas we'd prefer to be arising and about a fantasy we have or more awareness at such a time. Whilst thinking like this, as Sukin was stressing, there can be awareness of such thinking. Having an idea that less thinking or less intereaction or less frustration will help awareness is not the Middle Path at all as I see it. .... > I'm hoping I said the following. The mind is a social product. Do the > obvious. Look, over there is a tree, an empty opera house (the next > performance isn't until tonight :-) ... S: ;-) And you know what? The show of the mind will continue relentlessly, ever changing, nonetheless. There is no escaping it. 'Consciousness also is like an illusion in the sense of being insubstantial.....And an illusion deceives the many and makes them grasp anything at all as gold, silver or pearl; consciousness too deceives the many and makes them take it as though there were coming and going and standing and sitting with the same consciousness. but there is one consciousness at the time of coming and anther at the time of going and so on...." .... > J & S made sure I understood they rather like their unprompted, out of > the blue, bolts of sati. ... S: This doesn't ring any bells or bolts:-/ Perhaps the point was that whilst we follow all our usual daily activities (including choices and decisions and various paths which Howard was referring to), sati can arise anytime if there is the understanding of just what present namas and rupas really are. This is the point that KenH has been making clearly in his various posts as I see it. In other words, sit quietly under the tree or in the opera house or in your kuti as you like, but you'll find the dhammas arising are just as conditioned and ultimately worthless as those when socialising. And in the end, it's not Herman who decides which course of action to follow, but many different conditions and factors which affect the various dhammas at each step. .... > It is dawning on me, yet again, that my posts are causing all sorts of > problems for others. ... S: It's nice that you are concerned, but we'll all handle the occasional 'problem' in our own ways. I'd like to personally thank you for all the truly excellent posts and discussions you've initiated in and participated in during the last couple of months. You were really a great help and support to us while we were away for over a month too. .... > > I think I'll concentrate on being autistic for a while, like Sangamaji > (Udana 1.8). Unlike him, I won't be autistic in public. ... S: Sangamaji was an arahant, with all jhanas and abhinnas. If this is autistic, it sounds pretty good. Before he ordained, he became a sotapanna by listening to the Buddha talking about the Dhamma, but comprehending the Truths. I think Vicki will always give you good advice and support. ... > There is ego, but not a self who has it. > (Hofman H. 2005) ... S: ;-) I like it. If you ever need a break from being autistic in private, there's always the Botanical Gardens! We won't be getting to Australia again for a while, but there are Botanical Gardens in Hong Kong or the concrete Foundation in Bangkok where some of us will be meeting in the New Year.... Perhaps Vicki would like a trip to Asia too.... I hope you continue your good thread with AndrewT after as much of a break as either of you need for reinforcements and all those commentary texts:-). Metta, Sarah p.s And Herman doesn't sound Dutch ....pure Aussie with just an occasional give-away Dutch exclamation. Yah! (When Jon visits my family in England, he sounds Australian to them....just!) =========================== 49535 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 0:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 262- Attachment/lobha (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] The sotåpanna ( the streamwinner, who has attained the first stage of enlightenment) has eradicated clinging which is accompanied by wrong view, but the other forms of clinging may still arise. The anågåmí (the non-returner, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) has eradicated all forms of sensuous clinging, but he still clings to birth. He may cling to rúpa-jhåna and its result and to arúpa-jhåna and its result. He has no “eternity view” because he is without wrong view. The arahat has eradicated all kinds of clinging, he does not cling to any kind of rebirth. For him there are no longer conditions for rebirth. When there is mindfulness of the present object more often, we will see more clearly how deep-rooted our clinging is. We can prove in this way that the Abhidhamma teaches about realities. We will learn that there is clinging to all the objects which are experienced through the six doors. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49536 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: is a desirable object kusala sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, I thought your long and detailed message to Evan (#48893) was very good - gets better each time. The only point I'd like to pick up is one I've mentioned a couple of times before (at least!!): > Citta 9+ - Javana > ================= ><...>If there is a mismatch between the intrinsic nature of > the object and the type of javana citta, then this is called > a "perversion of perception" (sannavipallasa). Examples of this are: > - An attachment rooted citta with an object of the tack sensation > - An aversion rooted citta with an object of a warm bath sensation or > cushion sensation .... S: I'd just like to stress again that there is perversion of sanna whenever the citta is akusala. So in these examples, if there were aversion following the unpleasant bodily experience (sitting on the tack) or attachment whilst relaxing in the bath or on the cushion, it would also be sanna vipallasa. Also, if there were just ignorance....So most the day, there is sanna vipallasa....Only eradicated by the arahant and by the anagami with regard to sense objects. Please let me know if you agree/disagree as this comes up so often (and imho detracts a little from your excellent post...). Metta, Sarah ===== 49537 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & James, with regard to K.Sujin, you wrote: --- Tep Sastri wrote: >>James:....(Gosh, I wish that woman > > would post to this group!! ;-)) > > > > I also wish that your wish came true !! It would make this place more > interesting. .... S: Some of us will be seeing K.Sujin daily in India next month. If you'd like me to show her any of your letters or raise any of your comments, I'll be glad to do so and to reply with any verbatim comments along the way as best I can for your further feedback and so on. She has had some problems with her eyes for several years, I believe, and I've noticed more and more that she asks others to read textual passages to her and this kind of thing. So, I think this is the best we could do. It's not ideal as James said before. For myself, like KenH, I actually prefer this medium in many ways and would be happy not to make the trips:). Having said that, both of you might consider joining us in Thailand in the new year if it's at all feasible..... Tep, I was very moved by your letter and the discussion about your daughter and your very natural attachment to her. I was also glad to hear about her success and move to Japan. Perhaps you'll have a chance to visit her as well. .... > James, I admire your candor and extremely consistent view on Khun > Sujin's teachings. It should be beneficial for everyone to clearly see > both sides of an issue, although it is usually very difficult to > persuade > others to broaden their perspective, even a little. ... S: I agree that it's beneficial to discuss 'both sides of an issue'. Isn't it true that we always find others to have the narrow perspective?;-). James, thanks for the shocking post which indicated we'd found an area of agreement (instantaneous rebirth). Of course, we were soon back to normal with your other posts;-)). Maybe more later.... Metta, Sarah ======= 49538 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, para 239 - 243 sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Thanks for all your hard work on this difficult treatise.... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all - > > The presentation last week stopped at para 238. Now we move on to > the third ground(vatthu) that deals with "he trains thus 'I shall breath > in > acquainted with the whole breath body' and 'I shall breath out > acquainted with the whole breath body'." The Pali goes like the > following : 'sabbakaya patisamvedi assasissami ti sikkhati, > sabbakaya patisamvedi passasissami ti sikkhati '. Please notice the > work 'sikkhati' which means "training" or practice such that full > awareness of the whole breath body is accomplished. In the previous > two vatthus there is only the word ' pajaanaati ', not 'sikkhati', for > example : Digham vaa assasanto digham assasaami-ti pajaanaati, > which means ' while breathing in long, he knows "I am breathing in > long",' etc. Does anybody knows why the text drops 'pajaanaati' and > turns to 'sikkhati' instead? .... S: I think that what's difficult often is to know when the reference is to samatha development and jhana and when to satipatthana development. Rightly or wrongly, I take the first reference here (in and out etc) with sikkhati to be referring to samatha development and the latter example you give with pajaanaati to be referring to satipatthana. .... Most the following of the text you gave here is referring to vipassana or satipatthana development with the development of understanding of namas and rupas. (240-242) <...> > Tep's Notes. > ------------- > > By means of the Anapanasati bhavana the meditator understands the > unity and non-distraction of the cognizance(citta), and his mindfulness > is established inside (not wandering outside). ... s: You'd need to explain your understanding to me in your own words on this....:-/ ... >As the consequence of > the gained insight he is "acquainted with" both his material body and > mental body -- i.e. he experiences these bodies the way they really > are. .... S: ie, namas and rupas are clearly understood. .... >The true understanding(vipassana-nana) of nama-rupa can be > conditioned to arise by means of the following factors : adverting the > citta, knowing, seeing, reviewing, stablishing (sati), concentrating > (citta), > understanding, direct knowledge, abandoning (kilesas), developing > (calm and insight), and realizing (the nama-rupa characteristics). > > There are words that I added inside the parentheses to explain the text > further, according to my understanding. Please feel free to disagree > and tell me how to correct my errors, if any. > .... S: Good work....what does 'adverting the citta' mean to you? Btw, I carefully read through KenH's comments which you quoted in your clear and friendly comments. I couldn't find any problem with them, but I see he's already replied, so I'll look forward to reading your further discussion with him. I think we discussed the many synonyms of panna before....Thanks for raising all these issues and perhaps I've missed something. Metta, Sarah p.s to my last message to you and James - have you tried listening to any of the edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin? Do you have any comments? I ask because many of the questions we and others rais are based on topics from DSG. There will be more soon. ================== 49539 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha (& KenH), --- matheesha wrote: <...> > M: Yes, but it remains that the wood gets chopped! Things can be > changed. Or to put it in another way, the content of dhammas arising > which have chopped wood as opposed to unchopped wood as object, can > be altered. It doesnt require a self to do that. .... S: :-) .... > M: oh ok then :) > > Ken, I'm going to have to leave you now. I'm sorry but I'm again > spending too much time at the keyboard, to the point it is an > addiction -it is affecting the rest of my life. I wish I could come > to some kind of a conclusion, but that is not to be. .... S: I'd just like to also add that this one has been an excellent discussion too. I'm sure many people have been following it with keen interest. Matheesha, you raise good points and textual references and do us all a favour by keeping Ken H on his land-bound toes in spite of the allure of the big waves a few minutes walk from his place.... Perhaps you can come to some kind of a compromise with your addiction and just post on weekends or something like Phil attempts to do... Just to let you know that you do us all a favour here... Looking f/w to reading Ken H's further comments and anymore of yours in your own good time... Metta, Sarah ======== 49540 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 2:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 516 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 5. the stock of power or strength(bala dhamma) Bala means 'strength' 'power' 'force'. Bala are like 'the leader' of troop in battle. When in battle these leaders like generals, colonels, commanders, captains etc do not fear any opposing enemies. In Dhamma there are dhammas that do not fear opposing dhamma. Examples are akusala dhamma do not fear kusala dhamma and kusala dhamma do not fear akusala dhamma and vice versa. There are 9 balas or 9 powers. They are 1. saddha bala or 'power of faith' 2. viiriya bala or 'power of energy' 3. sati bala or 'power of mindfulness' 4. samaadhi bala or 'power of concentration' 5. pannaa bala or 'power of wisdom' 6. hiiri bala or 'power of shamefulness' 7. ottappa bala or 'power of fearfulness' 8. akiria bala or 'power of shamelessness' 9. anottappa bala or 'power of fearlessness' The first 5 balas or powers are seen in Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or 'companions of enlightenment'. 6th and 7th balas are the leaders or the powers in kusala dhamma and because of these 2 dhamma kusala dhammas are being carried out. They do not fear ahirika & anottappa, which are akusala cetasika and also bala dhamma. 8th and 9th balas are the leaders or the power in akusala dhamma and when these 2 balas or powers are there, then kusala dhamma cannot come and akusala dhamma overwhelm and they lead to disasters created by akusala dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49541 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 2:56am Subject: How to see the world htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitioner has been meditating in search of Dhamma. He is attending well at all mental phenomena. There have been many many events arising and falling away while he is meditating. He believes that these will be going on even though he happens not to meditate. While he is sitting he hears a sound from outside of the house. That sound is a rupa and it is sadda rupa. The sound just hits sotapasada or ear-sense receptor. That ear-sense receptor or sotapasada is also a rupa. There are many other rupa and they are serving according to Dhamma Niyama. All these rupa are the causes for arising of vinnana or citta. While he is sitting in meditation he notices that outside sound as a sound which is a rupa. He knows that a rupa arises. While it persists he cognizes that it persists and again when it abolishes he notices that the rupa sound has fades away. There is no him or no his all in the process of these events. All are Anatta. He feels peace. As sound arises auditory receptor or sotapasada also arises at the same time. While the sound persists the pasada rupa also persists and when the sound falls away, the sense base sotapasada also passes away. It is a rupa. It is the source for arising of vinnana or citta. These rupa are actually clinging aggregate. Here they are all material clinging aggregate. These material clinging aggregates or rupakkhandha are not of him or not of his. They are nothing to do with selfness. There is clearly no ego. There is clearly no self all in these process of events and in all these real dhamma. This is dhamma. It is rupa dhamma. It is rupakkhandha. It is rupupadanakkhandha or material clinging aggregate. When it arises he knows that it arises and when it persists he cognizes that it persists. And when it falls away he realizes that all have passed away immediately as soon as they arise. There is no trace of permanence as all are rapidly falling away. As he can clearly see that all dhamma are falling away very rapidly he realizes that all these dhamma are dukkha or all are suffering. There is no control over these dhamma. They all are Anatta. He is sensing anicca on all dhamma. He is sensing dukkha on all dhamma. He is sensing anatta on all dhamma. He feels real peace and he is well calm with all these dhamma. May all beings see anicca, dukkha, and anatta and release the view of atta. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 49542 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 3:13am Subject: Tracing the Path that takes the journey to nibbana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In history, there have been a lot of changes. Every locality has its own history even though it may not have been recorded. History is record of changes. There are many histories as time passes by. In history, there had been a lot of countries, kings, queens, princes, princesses, presidents, prime ministers, leaders, groups, tribes, clangs and so on. Among these groups, there had been huge changes. There had been many political systems. When one arises others fall away. Political systems are also subjected to change. For example, communism when it first arose, seemed to be a strong system. But, later it became nearly extinct. Whatever the history has existed, there has been a community, which has been very strong, united, well-disciplined, great, noble and still serving to people of all origins pointing the right path. This community is Sangha. Sangha maintain Buddha's teachings and doctrines. These great teachings are Dhamma. These Dhamma are extremely precious and ever excel other gems and jewelery. Gems and jewelery are precious because of their rarity. Arising of true Dhamma is an extremely rare instance. These Dhamma were preached by The Buddha, The Blessed One, The Exalted One, The Supreme One, The Enlightened One. To become a Sammasambuddha is extremely difficult. Bodhisattas have to complete their perfections for many many lives. When they were matured enough to attain Magga, they reconsidered every possible thing and with their great Karuna or compassion, they decided to fulfil perfections to become Sammasambuddha. They have been completing perfections even before they receive Byaditta or Sammasambuddhas' prediction of someone to become Sammasambuddha. Nine Asenkheyya have to lapse just for their wish. Another seven Asenkheyya have to pass to do determination ( Adhitthana ) to become Sammasambuddha. After Byaditta, they still have to fulfil perfections for a very very long time. So said that ''To become a Sammasambuddha a Satta has to be able to climb mountains of razors ( sharp knives ) and swim across seas of great fire.'' Anyway, due to their great effort, there have been a great piles of Dhamma, with which each Satta can travel safely on the journey to their total liberation. Liberation means release from any attachment. That totally liberated state is called Nibbana, which is one of ultimate realities. If we can start the journey to Nibbana now, it is not too late to achieve the goal of attaining that entirely peaceful and totally liberated state called Nibbana. May you all start your journey to Nibbana in time. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 49543 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 4:31am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 517 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahaara) 6. the stock of predominance or master or lord(adhipati) Adhipati means 'ruler' 'governer' 'master' 'predominance' 'leader' 'lord'. Adhipati = adhi + pati. Adhi means 'great' 'exceeding' and pati means 'lord'. Gahapati_the leader of house or householder, narapati_the leader of men or king, senaapati_the leader of army or generals. There are 4 adhipati or 4 masters in dhamma. They are 1. chandaadhipati or 'zeal the lord' or 'zeal the master' 2. viiriyaadhipati or 'effort the lord' or 'effort the master' 3. cittaadhipati or 'consciousness the lorf' or 'consci the master' 4. viima.msaadhipati or 'wisdom the lord' or 'wisdom the master' These 4 dhammas are powerful dhamma. They are like the engine of train and they pull all the carriages of the train and then lead all of them. This means that when chanda or 'zeal' becomes the master all dhamma have to follow the order of zeal and then all the tasks have to accomplish because of this zeal. In chandaadhipati the dhamma is chanda cetasika. In viiriyaadhipati the dhamma is viriya cetasika or effort. In viimamsaadhipati the dhamma is pannindriya cetasika. In cittaadhipati the dhamma that leads is citta or consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49544 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 7:08am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 188 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 188. Intro: After the Vis. has dealt with presence as period (addhaa), it deals now with presence according to continuity (santati) or serial presence. Ruupas do not arise singly, they arise in groups of at least eight ruupas, the eight inseparable ruupas. The four great Elements of solidity, cohesion, heat and motion are always present in each group of ruupas. They are the foundation for the derived ruupas that arise together with them. The other four inseparable ruupas are: colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. The groups of ruupa of the body are produced by four factors: by kamma, citta, nutrition and heat. Heat produces groups of rupa and in these groups heat is always included among the eight inseparbale ruupas. The heat in such a group can in its turn produce another group of rupa that also includes heat. When edible food that has been taken suffuses the body, it produces groups of ruupa that always include nutrition which is also one of the eight inseparable ruupas. In its turn, the nutrition in such a group can produce another group of ruupa. Throughout our life heat and nutrition continue to produce ruupas of the body. ***** Text Vis.188: (b) 'According to continuity': that [materiality] which has like or single origination [72] by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is 'present'. ------ Tiika: Note 72: 'Cold temperature is like with cold, and hot with hot. ------ N: the word Œlike¹ is the translation of sabhaaga: similar or common. ------- Tiika: But that temperature which falls on the body, whether hot or cold, and occurs as a continuity in one mode, being neither less nor more, is called "single temperature". The word "single" is used because of the plurality of "like" temperature. -------- N: Temperature that arises and appears as heat or cold impinges on the bodysense. In fact there is a continuity of several units of temperature, but the Tiika explains that they are taken together (eak-ggaha.na.m) as a serial presence, occurring as a continuity in one mode (ekaakaara.m). -------- Tiika: So too with nutriment. ------ N: It is the same in the case of nutrition that produces groups of ruupa in continuity. It produces heat that can be experienced through the bodysense. Tiika: The explanations of 'continuity' and 'period' (samaya) are given in the Commentaries for the purpose of helping the practice of insight'. (Pm.496). ----------- N: The serial presence is reckoned as the present object for insight. The characteristic of ruupa such as heat or hardness appears and can be object of insight so that it is realized as a conditioned dhamma, not a person or self, not mine. --------- Text Vis.:That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is 'past'. That which is subsequent is 'future'. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is 'present'. Previous to that is 'past'. Subsequent to that is 'future'. -------- Tiika: "In one cognitive series, in one impulsion" refers respectively to five-door process cittas and mind-door process cittas. --------- N: Cittas of a sense-door process, except the five sense-cognitions, and cittas of a mind-door process also produce ruupas. --------- Text Vis.: There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness. -------------------------- N: Kamma which is past, even long ago, can produce ruupas at present. At the first moment of our life as a human, kamma produced three decads (groups of ten ruupas), namely, the decads with bodysense, sex and heartbase. Throughout life kamma keeps on producing ruupas, such as, for example, the sense organs. The groups of rupa produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition are interrelated and support one another. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (XVII, 196): The body may seem to be lasting, but this is merely due to the continuous production of new ruupas by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature, replacing the ones that have fallen away. We may cling to eyesense and believe that it lasts, but in reality kamma keeps on producing eyesense which arises and falls away. Considering the different factors that keep on producing ruupas of the body even at this moment can help us to be less attached to the idea of 'my body'. **** Nina. 49545 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: factfinding heartbase. nilovg Hi Tep, I just post part of my Visuddhimagga study about heartbase. If you have confidence in the Patthana book of the Abhidhamma it may be of use to you. As you know, I am not so inclined to debate. I have only about one month before India and I would like to move to the background, like Phil. I just have to concentrate now on the Visuddhimagga studies so that I can work ahead somewhat. Nina. op 31-08-2005 17:56 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I did not mean to debate with you at all -- how about calling it "fact > finding"? ***** Nina: U. Narada cites places of the Patthana (in his Guide to Conditional Relations) where the heartbase occurs as dependence condition, at birth and throughout life. At the moment of birth the heart-base arises simultaneously with the rebirth-consciousness, and during life, the arising of citta is dependent on the heartbase that arose together with the citta immediately preceding it. We have to remember that rupa is weak at its arising moment and that it can only condition nama after it has arisen, during its moments op presence. Kamma keeps on producing the heartbase throughout life during the three moments of citta: its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its falling away. At the time of dying, the last cittas depend on one heartbase. U Narada: < It is like many persons sitting astride an old man who is very weak. For the heart-base at the time of dying is very weak and many consciousnesses have to depend on it, and it ceases with the ceasing of death-consciousness. The simultaneous ceasing of this materiality with consciousness is known as birth. (Note that the simultaneous arising of this materiality with consciousness is known as birth in the five aggregates planes.) > Heart-base can condition citta by: base-object- prenascence-dependence condition. It is prenascent, it is base, it can also be the object. In the Patthana it is explained that it can be the object of insight or of lobha: ³ (One) practises insight into impermanency, suffering, impersonality... enjoys and delights in the internal (heart-base). Taking it as object, arises lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief.² **** U. Narada, p. 175: ***** Nina. 49546 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard (Sent from a suburb of Dallas, Texas) Hi, Nina - -----Original Message----- From: nina To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:50:52 +0200 Subject: [dsg] Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. The Buddha, in order to be able to attain Buddhahood, had to fulfil the ³perfections² from the time that the Buddha Dípankara declared him to be a future Buddha, he had to accumulate them for four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand aeons. Ånanda accumulated the perfections for a hundred thousand aeons. Therefore, why should people ask how they should practise? --------------------------------- Howard: I do not see that such a conclusion follows. --------------------------------- If someone asks such a question it shows that he wishes to understand immediately the realities which appear at this moment, but this is impossible. -------------------------------- Howard: I see it more as wanting to cultivate wisdom and equanimity, for however long it takes. --------------------------------- Nina. ================================== With metta, Howard 49548 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 8:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 518 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There 7 different stocks of peer-dhamma. They are 1. the stock of root (hetu) 2. the stock of jhana-factor (jhananga) 3. the stock of path-factor (magganga) 4. the stock of faculty (indriya) 5. the stock of power (bala) 6. the stock of predominance (adhipati) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahara) 7. the stock of nutriment (ahara) Ahaara means 'food' 'nutriment' 'support' feeding'. There are 4 different kinds of nutriment. They are 1 ruupa ahara and 3 naama ahaara. They are 1. kabalinkaro aharo or 'bodily nutriment' 2. phassaharo or 'nutriment of contact' 3. manosancetanaharo or 'nutriment of volition' 4. vinnaanaharo or 'nutriment of consciousness' 1. kabalinkaro aharo or bodily nutriment These dhamma are mixed dhamma and some are ruupa and some are naama. The first aharo is ruupa dhamma. It is kabalinkaro aharo or kabalikaro aharo. It is bodily nutriment. It is olariko/ gross-solid or it is sukhumo / fine. It is ahara ruupa and it is oja ruupa of 28 paramattha ruupas. 2. phassaharo or 'nutriment of contact' In lokiya cittas there are phassa cetasika in each and every citta. This phassa or contact feeds the citta with arammana or object. Without phassa citta cannot arise as there is no naama-nutriment as support. Lokuttara cittas take nibbana as their object and nibbana is not feeding thing. It is just cool and peace and not concerned with nutriment. So phassaharo is said to be phassa cetasika in lokiya cittas that is 81 lokiya cittas. 3. manosancetanaharo or 'nutriment of volition' There are 12 cetanas in 12 akusala cittas that have arisen in other lives. As they have arisen their effect as kamma is there all the time with each and every citta that arise. This kamma supports as manosancetana ahara in case of akusala. There are 17 cetanas in 17 kusala cittas and they have arisen in other lives. As they have arisen there is kamma always there with each and every arising citta. This kamma supports as manosancetana ahaara in case of kusala. In each and every citta there is cetana or volition. It serves as conascent-kamma condition or sahajaata-kamma paccaya. Here it is not as nutriment. As nutriment 12 akusala cetanas and 17 kusala cetanas serve as manosancetana ahaara. 17 kusala cetanas are cetanas in 17 kusala cittas. These 17 kusala cittas are 8 mahaakusala cittas, 5 ruupakusala cittas, and 4 aruupakusala cittas. 4. vinnaanaharo or 'nutriment of consciousness' There are 19 patisandhi cittas. Ruupa-patisandhii of asanniisatta is not vinnaana or consciousness. These 19 patisandhi cittas are 1. 1 akusala upekkhaa santirana citta (investigating consciousness) 2. 1 kusala upekkhaa santirana citta ( ,, ,, ) 3. 8 mahavipaaka cittas or 8 kaama-resultant consciousness 4. 5 ruupavipaaka cittas or 5 fine-material-resultant consciousness 5. 4 arupavipaaka cittas or 4 non-material-resultant consciousness ---- ++19 vipaaka cittas These patisandhi cittas or linking consciousness also serve as bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness. These life- continuing consciousness have to arise to support naama as there still left kaama to live a life. So these 19 cittas are called vinnaana ahaara. As long as there is kamma to live in a life, that life cannot end and even when there is no other support like physical food there have to arise mental-food called vinnaana ahaara and because of this life has to be continued. So they are called life-continuing consciousness or bhavanga cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49549 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 8:30am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Nina, > The Buddha, in order to be able to attain Buddhahood, had to fulfil > the ³perfections² from the time that the Buddha Dípankara declared > him to be a future Buddha, he had to accumulate them for four > incalculable periods and a hundred thousand aeons. Ånanda > accumulated the perfections for a hundred thousand aeons. > Therefore, why should people ask how they should practise? Now, I understand Khun Sujin's "method". And I definitely condemn it, because it goes against DN 22 entirely. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html (E. Conclusion) "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging- sustenance — nonreturn. "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — nonreturn. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — nonreturn. "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha did not teach us to develop panna over numerous lifetimes. He absolutely did not! He wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now, and he never said anything about so-called past accumulations or whatever nonsense/excuses that is often quoted. He said that ANYONE who practises the way he taught, yes ANYONE, even those without any "accumulations" at all, would attain non-return or unbinding here and now! Regards, Swee Boon 49550 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 9:08am Subject: Looking at feeling htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Depending on the origins of feeling there are six different feelings. They are 1. cakkhu-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of eye-contact) 2. sota-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of ear-contact) 3. ghaana-sam-phassajaa vedanaa(feeling born of nose-contact) 4. jivhaa-sam-phassajaa vedanaa(feeling born of tongue-contact) 5. kaaya-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of body-contact) 6. mano-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of mind-contact) These are 6 different feelings. When we see these phenomena of senses we can consider like this. Eye-consciousness or cakkhu-vi~n~naana citta or seeing arises. In this event there are also material phenomena. There also are ruupa or vanna or colours of different brightness or forms or shapes. This is one phenomenon. Another material phenomenon is that there also arise cakkhu-ppasaada or eye-sensitivity or eye-sense-base. In this event when it is counted as one event there are many events. a) material phenomena b) mental phenomena a) material phenomena 1. arising of ruupa (visual object like forms/shapes/colours/light) 2. arising of cakkhu-ppasaada (eye-sensitivity or eye-sense-base) b) mental phenomena 1. cakkhu-sa.m-phassa (eye-contact) 2. ruupa-sannaa (form-perception) 3. cakkhu-sa.m-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of eye-contact) 4. ruupa-sa`n-cetana (form-volition) 5. ekaggataa (one-pointedness to ruupa or form) 6. jiivitindriya (mental life) 7. manasikaaro (attention to ruupa or form) All these 9 events happen at the very very same time in a moment, which is much less than a split second. In the whole event where there comprises all 9 events there is a feeling. After this event another event follows successively when the foregoing event passes away. This new event also involves a feeling. As these feeling arises at a particular point there are 6 different feelings. They are feeling at eye, at ear, at nose, at tongue, at body and at mind. All these feelings are just a khandhaa and they are vedana-kkhandhaa or feeling aggregates. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 49551 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 9:13am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Nina, > The Buddha, in order to be able to attain Buddhahood, had to fulfil > the ³perfections² from the time that the Buddha Dípankara declared > him to be a future Buddha, he had to accumulate them for four > incalculable periods and a hundred thousand aeons. Ånanda > accumulated the perfections for a hundred thousand aeons. > Therefore, why should people ask how they should practise? Now, I understand Khun Sujin's "method". And I definitely condemn it, because it goes against DN 22 entirely. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html > > (E. Conclusion) > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either > gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging- > sustenance — nonreturn. > > "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two > years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... > three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits > can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there > be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — nonreturn. > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any > remnant of clinging-sustenance — nonreturn. > > "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the > overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & > distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the > realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of > reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in > the Blessed One's words. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha did not teach us to develop panna over numerous lifetimes.He absolutely did not! He wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now, and he never said anything about so-called past accumulations or whatever nonsense/excuses that is often quoted. He said that ANYONE who practises the way he taught, yes ANYONE, even those without any "accumulations" at all, would attain non-return or unbinding here and now! Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Nina, Sukin and all, I agree with Swee Boon. If one can follow what has been instructed in satipatthaana sutta the fruit will be one of 2 alternatives that is arahat or non-returner. This is possible in 7 days and maximum is 7 years. If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is they do not follow the Path exactly. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49552 From: "frank" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 10:01am Subject: dhamma soup for the meditator dhamma_service Four times, five, I ran amok from my dwelling, having gained no peace of awareness, my thoughts out of control. So I went to a trustworthy nun. She taught me the Dhamma: aggregates, sense spheres, & elements. Hearing the Dhamma, I did as she said. For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss. On the eighth, I stretched out my legs, having burst the mass of darkness. III.2 -- Uttama {vv. 42-44} 49553 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 11:32am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh Sujin nilovg Dear friends, ****** Nina. 49554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? nilovg Hi Mike, Clinging, craving, attachment, lust, wishing, hoping, all these are lobha cetasika. Many forms, intensities, objects. Nina. op 01-09-2005 02:50 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > Here I think there may be a problem with the word 'clinging'. It seems to > me that in some contexts 'upaadaana' has a different connotation if not > denotation from 'lobha'. In other words, sometimes (maybe?) clinging means > kaama tanhaa and other times identification with the aggregates, not > necessarily with attachment. ------ M: I might think 'this body' or 'this > personality' is 'me', even though I don't like it. ------ N: But you are attached to the me. Nina. 49555 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma soup for the meditator upasaka_howard Hi, Frank - -----Original Message----- From: frank To: frank Sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:01:19 -1000 Subject: [dsg] dhamma soup for the meditator Four times, five, I ran amok from my dwelling, having gained no peace of awareness, my thoughts out of control. So I went to a trustworthy nun. She taught me the Dhamma: aggregates, sense spheres, & elements. Hearing the Dhamma, I did as she said. For seven days I sat in one spot, absorbed in rapture & bliss. On the eighth, I stretched out my legs, having burst the mass of darkness. III.2 -- Uttama {vv. 42-44} ==================================== This is wonderful, Frank! Beautiful and heartening! To study the Dhamma, to learn and rigorously apply the practice the Buddha so kindly taught to us, and to then bear the fruits of awakening and liberation - and soon! With metta,Howard 49556 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? > Hi Mike, > Clinging, craving, attachment, lust, wishing, hoping, all these are lobha > cetasika. Many forms, intensities, objects. > Nina. > op 01-09-2005 02:50 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > >> Here I think there may be a problem with the word 'clinging'. It seems >> to >> me that in some contexts 'upaadaana' has a different connotation if not >> denotation from 'lobha'. In other words, sometimes (maybe?) clinging >> means >> kaama tanhaa and other times identification with the aggregates, not >> necessarily with attachment. > ------ > M: I might think 'this body' or 'this >> personality' is 'me', even though I don't like it. > ------ > N: But you are attached to the me. Right, thanks. I'm looking for a different meaning of 'attachment'. I'm not finding it. I found this which disagrees with me I think: "In the Paa.li four kinds of clinging have been handed down, namely, sense-desire clinging, wrong-view clinging, rites-and-rituals clinging and self-theory clinging." Dispeller 844 Would all the above would necessarily arise with lobha-mula citta? Or might the second, third and/or fourth arise with moha-muula citta but not lobha? Thanks for the correction. mike 49557 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 3:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & James, > > with regard to K.Sujin, you wrote: > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > >>James:....(Gosh, I wish that woman > > > would post to this group!! ;-)) > > > > > > > I also wish that your wish came true !! It would make this place more > > interesting. > .... > S: Some of us will be seeing K.Sujin daily in India next month. If you'd > like me to show her any of your letters or raise any of your comments, > I'll be glad to do so and to reply with any verbatim comments along the > way as best I can for your further feedback and so on. James: You offered to do this before and it does have some drawbacks, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. To be honest, I don't have high hopes of reaching understanding or reconciliation through such a technique. It would also, unfortunately, become another stage for K. Sujin's views when the focus should be on the Buddha's teachings. > > She has had some problems with her eyes for several years, I believe, and > I've noticed more and more that she asks others to read textual passages > to her and this kind of thing. So, I think this is the best we could do. James: Sorry to hear about her vision problems. Hope they get better or no worse. > It's not ideal as James said before. For myself, like KenH, I actually > prefer this medium in many ways and would be happy not to make the > trips:). James: Well, then encourage K. Sujin to post. Nina has vision problems also but she is quite the prolific poster. > > Having said that, both of you might consider joining us in Thailand in the > new year if it's at all feasible..... James: Thanks for the invitation. I'm not sure but it seems unlikely. I've been to Thailand twice already and the next country I would like to visit is Greece. > > James, I admire your candor and extremely consistent view on Khun > > Sujin's teachings. It should be beneficial for everyone to clearly see > > both sides of an issue, although it is usually very difficult to > > persuade > > others to broaden their perspective, even a little. > ... > S: I agree that it's beneficial to discuss 'both sides of an issue'. Isn't > it true that we always find others to have the narrow perspective?;-). James: Do you believe I have a narrow perspective of the Buddha's teachings? If so, please tell me and be specific. > > James, thanks for the shocking post which indicated we'd found an area of > agreement (instantaneous rebirth). Of course, we were soon back to normal > with your other posts;-)). James: ;-)) Well, can't have everything. ;-) Maybe more later.... James: Hope so. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Metta, James 49558 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 3:50pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <> Now, I understand Khun Sujin's "method". > > And I definitely condemn it, because it goes against DN 22 entirely. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html > > > > (E. Conclusion) > > > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in > > > > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames > of > > reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there > be > any > > remnant of clinging-sustenance — nonreturn. > > > > "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the > > overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & > > distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the > > realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of > > reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." > > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted > in > > the Blessed One's words. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Swee Boon, Nina, Sukin and all, > > I agree with Swee Boon. > > If one can follow what has been instructed in satipatthaana sutta the > fruit will be one of 2 alternatives that is arahat or non-returner. > This is possible in 7 days and maximum is 7 years. > > If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is > they do not follow the Path exactly. > ++++++++ Dear Htoo, As I read that sutta the Buddha said that he would expect 7 days for anyone who developed satipatthana correctly should be either arahant or anagami. He did start with seven years but then corrected that to seven days. I am wondering if you clam to one of those who has correctly developed saipatthana for seven days or more? Robertk 49559 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 4:10pm Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta,... / What is Understanding? buddhistmedi... Hi Ken H (and all)- By showing your willingness to continue with patience and politeness, you have already earned my sincere respect -- the first requirement for making a real dhamma friend. But, like Htoo once observed, it isn't easy to find a real dhamma friend even among the DSG members. Ken H : There is only one cetasika that performs the function of right understanding, and that is "amoha." Various synonyms for amoha are used at various times to indicate the specific circumstances in which that cetasika has arisen. Tep: Please, let us focus on the existing discussion that already has several confusing terms I am trying to sort out. Leave the "amoha" issue alone for a while, okay? --------------------------------- T: I asked you where to find your "supramundane right view" in the 10 path factors given by MN 117. And here is your answer: KenH : The sutta you have quoted reads: "Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." (end quote) KenH: Does that answer your question? The second sort is supramundane (lokuttara), and the first sort is mundane (lokiya). In the fourfold classification I gave, the second sort would be pativedha, and first sort would combine patipatti and pariyatti but not mundane jhana. Tep: No, it does not answer my question. Because I still don't know which one of the 10 Arahant's path factors is your "supramundane right view". To make it more confusing, you have introduced even more terminologies! [Are they your smoke screen?] -------------------------------- >T: Is "real (paramattha) meditation" the same as samma- >samadhi? But samma-samadhi is supported by the other 7 path >factors, according to MN 117. >See how confusing it is? KenH: Not to me, it isn't. Real, momentarily arising, meditation is what is meant by the Pali word, bhavana. Bhavana occurs in four forms - pativedha, patipatti, pariyatti and mundane jhana. The first three forms owe their existences to the Buddha's teaching, while the fourth form does not. Tep: Thank you for the not-convincing definition of 'bhavana' as "real, momentarily arising, meditation". Bhavana to me means simply "samatha-vipassana meditation", or developing tranquillity and insight. Anapanasati is a bhavana. -------------------------------- T: > In comment 6. this "right understanding" must not be "right >view", the 1st path factor, as you sated in Comment 1. The "something >more" that I was talking about means all the 7 other path factors >plus the two later samma-nana and samma-vimutti. KenH : We are agreed that the other 7 path factors (and the later two) follow on from right understanding. But you seem to be saying there is an aspect of the Path that that does not follow on from right understanding. What is it? Tep: No, it is the opposite ! The "right understanding" is your invented misnomer that seems to mean panna (understanding) at the Arahatta- magga level. Hence before attaining the "supramundane right understanding" all the 8 path factors must be fulfilled first. What do you think of the following Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on the "supramundane right view"? Do other path factors follow on from it, or does it arise simultaneously with the other 7 factors (samma-sankappa through samma-samadhi)? What about the three sikkhas? BB: "This right view that penetrates the Four Noble Truths comes at the end of the path, not at the beginning. We have to start with the right view conforming to the truths, acquired through learning and fortified through reflection. This view inspires us to take up the practice, to embark on the threefold training in moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom. When the training matures, the eye of wisdom opens by itself, penetrating the truths and freeing the mind from bondage." [from "The Noble Eightfold Path"] Tep (continuing): I presented a preferred definition of right understanding in my previous post, but you omitted it. Here it is again presented (from message # 49491): II. AN IX.44 Pannavimutti Sutta --------------------------------- "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." Tep: Panna or "understanding" by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and "discernment" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu are the same. The above understanding that is connected to 'vimutti' should indeed be called "right understanding" --------------------------- KenH : There are some omissions from your post. Maybe you plan to come back to them, but you seem to have ignored my questions about Bhikkhu Thanissaro, and whether anatta is factual or a mere device (invented by the Buddha to help meditators calm their minds). Ken H (continued): Perhaps you don't want to be labelled either way and would rather not talk about it. If so, I am sorry but it really is important. If you believe in an eternal soul but don't say so, then our communication problems will never be solved. Tep: I was intentionally "ignoring" your question about Thanissaro Bhikkhu and "whether anatta is factual or a mere device (invented by the Buddha to help meditators calm their minds)". I thought I had expressed the Tep's view on atta/anatta and extreme views clearly enough, and that it would be useless to keep repeating it. However, since you have said it is really important, let me handle that right away below. Part (I) ------- >T: At the atomic level the piece of wood and the wood-chopper are >not "seen", so there is no wood-chopping at the atomic level. Which >level is illusory - the atomic level where there are only electrons >and protons, or the macro level where there are the piece of wood and >the wood-chopper? KenH : "I am surprised you find that question relevant. In the Tipitaka, there is no mention of an electron and proton world. Clearly, electrons and protons belong to conventional thinking and, ultimately, they are just as illusory as wood and wood-choppers. The only world elucidated by the Buddha was the world of conditioned dhammas". Tep: Electrons and protons are real -- go ask the physicists, electrical engineers, and technicians who deal with power generation, electronics (How does your cell phone work?) and electricity (Have you ever been shocked when touching a live wire?). Wood and wood- chopper are real; you see them and the action and you know they are impermanent and leading to dukkha when you don't know them the way they really are. Because when you grasp to them (rupa and nama) as 'mine, me, my self ' then you cannot abandon personality views or conceit(mana). Illusion or not is the matter of wrong or right view. Part (II) -------- >Tep: There is a do-er right now, but you don't see him at the >Paramattha level. So, please come back down to earth from the ideal >world. Right now is reality to develop sila, samadhi and panna. "Being >endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. >Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and >blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from >all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), >from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions >(ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava)." [The source is given in my message # 49386 ] Ken H : "I hope I have misunderstood you, but you would not be the first DSG member to believe in an eternal soul. We have had followers of Bhikkhu Thanissaro, who teaches that anatta is not real. BT says anatta is just a technique for calming the mind. Last week, you said something unnervingly similar. Quote: "I do hope that his explanation helps those who have been obsessed with no-self, not-self and the Paramattha dhamma. Indeed, anattanupassana is for the purpose of cutting the grasping after the body-mind personality, nothing else." Ken H: "Please, tell me I have misunderstood!" Tep: The very first thing I want to tell you is : "Hey, Ken, you are wrong again". Don't jump to the easy conclusion that Tep believes in an "eternal soul", because I do not -- repeat, I do not. The basic knowledge of the 1st and 2nd Noble Truths is enough to convince me that there is no eternal soul and all conditioned things are impermanent. I had several discussions with other members like Sarah, Joop, and Howard on anatta. For example, in DSG #4666 I wrote: "Seeing a being/person as 'only five heaps' is not an extreme view -- it is a right view based on non-detachment of the five aggregates, seeing them individually or as the "heap" as anatta. To see that person who is suffering right now as 'a suffering being' and be kind enough to offer helps is a right view (clearly understanding a kusala dhamma) that must be supported by detachment (no clinging) in the sense that the being who exists now is not the same before or after this moment (impermanence implies not-self, and hence it should not be your object of clinging)". The anatta dhamma as stated in the Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) is beyond the Sotapanna's right view that eliminates the 20 sakkayaditthi. Self clinging (atta-vadupadana), or clinging to the personality belief, based on the five heaps, is the same as the 20 sakkayaditthi. Penetration of anatta is only through the Arahant's panna. No, I don't think that "anatta is just a technique for calming the mind". My explanation above is clear enough, isn't it? Yes, dear Ken, you have misunderstood me (again). Yours truly, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I have the amended version of your reply thank you. I will cut out > the summary of my 49445, and start at your comments: > snipped) > > There are some omissions from your post. Maybe you plan to come back to them, but you seem to have ignored my questions about Bhikkhu Thanissaro, and whether anatta is factual or a mere device (invented by the Buddha to help meditators calm their minds). > > Perhaps you don't want to be labelled either way and would rather not talk about it. If so, I am sorry but it really is important. If you > believe in an eternal soul but don't say so, then our > communication problems will never be solved. > > Ken H 49560 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 4:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - I really enjoyed reading your message and was impressed by the warm and funny comments [ "Perhaps you'll have a chance to visit her as well." and "Isn't it true that we always find others to have the narrow perspective?";-).] I say 'yes' to both. Thank you for paying appropriate attention to all the posts here -- I understand how difficult and tiime consuming that is; it may be quite boring too, because you have to do it everyday. Thank you for offering a very practical solution for James and I to communicate our questions with A. Sujin through you. I welcome this considerate offer and will take advantage of it when I need an answer concerning the Paramattha dhamma. With great appreciation, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & James, > > with regard to K.Sujin, you wrote: > > > Sarah > ======= 49561 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, para 239 - 243 buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (and all) - I am aware of the difficulty of the Breathing Treatise and, as a consequence, I deeply appreciate your careful reading of the presentation and the time to discuss it with me. Please remember that I am just the presenter who is most of the time unable to penetrate the true meanings of the words of wisdom of the great Arahant Sariputta. Indeed, I am just a soup spoon that does not know the taste of the soup. > T: Does anybody knows why the text drops 'pajaanaati' and > turns to 'sikkhati' instead? .... S: I think that what's difficult often is to know when the reference is to samatha development and jhana and when to satipatthana development. Rightly or wrongly, I take the first reference here (in and out etc) with sikkhati to be referring to samatha development and the latter example you give with pajaanaati to be referring to satipatthana. T: Yes, 'pajaanaati' is everywhere in the Satipatthana Sutta with respect to contemplation of vedana, citta, and most of the dhammanupassana. But out of the sixteen vatthus of the anapanasati, only two of them employ 'pajaanaati'. On the other hand, 'sikkhati' appears in all the remaining 14 vatthus. So, I think, there must be some special meanings for sikkha? -------------- > T: > By means of the Anapanasati bhavana the meditator understands the > unity and non-distraction of the cognizance(citta), and his mindfulness > is established inside (not wandering outside). ... S: You'd need to explain your understanding to me in your own words on this....:-/ T: O.K., Sarah, you are tough ! It means there are no hindrances and the meditator experiences mental calm resulting from his mindful awareness of the breaths at the point of contact(the 'sign'). ------------- > T: There are words that I added inside the parentheses to explain the >text further, according to my understanding. Please feel free >to disagree and tell me how to correct my errors, if any. > .... S: Good work....what does 'adverting the citta' mean to you? T: I guess the Pali is 'aavajjata', meaning 'turn to' or 'observe'.Thus it means the meditator turns his 'mind' to the object (rupa or nama). ------------ S: Btw, I carefully read through KenH's comments which you quoted in your clear and friendly comments. I couldn't find any problem with them, but I see he's already replied, so I'll look forward to reading your further discussion with him. I think we discussed the many synonyms of panna before....Thanks for raising all these issues and perhaps I've missed something. T: The reason for seeing no problem with Ken H is simply because you both come from the "same school". Please read my most recent post to him today and perhaps, you may see my points. But don't worry if you still do not. Thanks for the attention anyway. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Thanks for all your hard work on this difficult treatise.... > (snipped)> > Btw, I carefully read through KenH's comments which you quoted in your clear and friendly comments. I couldn't find any problem with them, but I see he's already replied, so I'll look forward to reading your further discussion with him. I think we discussed the many synonyms of panna before....Thanks for raising all these issues and perhaps I've missed something. > 49562 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 6:15pm Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I have a new approach to our Dhamma discussion, and I think it will work fine for us. The idea is for us to ask only one question in a message, and when replying we will limit the number of question to only one again. When there is no more question to ask or to answer, then that is the end of the thread. Let's try it. Question ------------- What benefits can one gain from knowing the six feelings and the associated events in all detail? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Depending on the origins of feeling there are six different > feelings. They are > > 1. cakkhu-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of eye-contact) > 2. sota-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of ear-contact) > 3. ghaana-sam-phassajaa vedanaa(feeling born of nose-contact) > 4. jivhaa-sam-phassajaa vedanaa(feeling born of tongue-contact) > 5. kaaya-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of body-contact) > 6. mano-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of mind-contact) > > These are 6 different feelings. When we see these phenomena of senses > we can consider like this. (snipped) 49563 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 6:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: factfinding heartbase. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - It is very kind of you to be so considerate even when you have a more important task at hand. May your project in India be a success, and may you and yours travel safely. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I just post part of my Visuddhimagga study about heartbase. > If you have confidence in the Patthana book of the Abhidhamma it may be of > use to you. > > As you know, I am not so inclined to debate. I have only about one month > before India and I would like to move to the background, like Phil. I just > have to concentrate now on the Visuddhimagga studies so that I can work > ahead somewhat. > Nina. > op 31-08-2005 17:56 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > I did not mean to debate with you at all -- how about calling it "fact > > finding"? > ***** > Nina: > U. Narada cites places of the Patthana (in his Guide to Conditional > Relations) where the heartbase occurs as dependence condition, at birth and > throughout life. > At the moment of birth the heart-base arises simultaneously with the > rebirth-consciousness, and during life, the arising of citta is dependent on > the heartbase that arose together with the citta immediately preceding it. > We have to remember that rupa is weak at its arising moment and that it can > only condition nama after it has arisen, during its moments op presence. > Kamma keeps on producing the heartbase throughout life during the three > moments of citta: its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the > moment of its falling away. > At the time of dying, the last cittas depend on one heartbase. U Narada: < > It is like many persons sitting astride an old man who is very weak. For the > heart-base at the time of dying is very weak and many consciousnesses have > to depend on it, and it ceases with the ceasing of death- consciousness. The > simultaneous ceasing of this materiality with consciousness is known as > birth. (Note that the simultaneous arising of this materiality with > consciousness is known as birth in the five aggregates planes.) > > Heart-base can condition citta by: base-object- prenascence- dependence > condition. It is prenascent, it is base, it can also be the object. In the > Patthana it is explained that it can be the object of insight or of lobha: ³ > (One) practises insight into impermanency, suffering, impersonality... > enjoys and delights in the internal (heart-base). Taking it as object, > arises lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises > grief.² > > **** > U. Narada, p. 175: > specified as Œheart-base¹ by the Commentators when this is not mentioned > anywhere in the Pali canon? > Answer: It is clear to many that eye-consciousness, etc. are dependent and > based on eye-base, etc. But in the case of the material base in question, > Œheart¹ is prefixed to it so that there will be no doubt as to which base is > meant. For mind-element and mind-consciousness element are dependent on the > material base which is situated within the heart and is, therefore, called > Œheart-base¹. Thus Œbase¹ and Œheart-base¹ are one and the same. > ***** > A Summary about heartbase: > Rob K's posts have rendered many questions people may have about the heart, > transplantation of heart, etc. He also explained that we may be clinging to > an idea of my heart, but that the heartbase is a very subtle rupa that can > only be experienced through the mind-door. > > Although we cannot experience it now, what can we learn about this? It is > the physical basis for many cittas, included in mind-element and > mind-consciousness element. It is a condition for other realities and it > itself is conditioned by kamma which keeps on producing it throughout life, > on and on. We are in a five khandha plane, meaning, what we call *we* are > nama and rupa. Each citta takes a new base (be it sensebase or heartbase), > except during the last javanacittas of a life which all depend on one > heartbase. This study helps us to see at least intellectually, that the > heartbase and the cittas that depend on it are very temporary, beyond > control and not to be taken for mine or self. All these studies of details > we do now are accumulated as a foundation so that later on panna can arise > which understands the true nature of dhammas. > > ***** > > Nina. 49564 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 7:04pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 188 - Nina gazita2002 dearest Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 188. .....snip....... > The groups of rupa produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition are > interrelated and support one another. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (XVII, > 196): > > the several kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station of > consciousness, and abode of beings, it is nevertheless unable to carry on > without being consolidated by materiality of triple origination (by citta, > temperature and nutrition), nor can that of triple origination do so without > being consolidated by the former. But when they thus give consolidating > support to each other, they can stand up without falling, like sheaves of > reeds propped up together on all four sides, even though battered by the > wind, and like (boats with) broken floats that have found a support, even > though battered by waves somewhere in mid-ocean, and they can last one year, > two years,... a hundred years, until those beings¹ life span or their merit > is exhausted. > > > The body may seem to be lasting, but this is merely due to the continuous > production of new ruupas by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature, > replacing the ones that have fallen away. We may cling to eyesense and > believe that it lasts, but in reality kamma keeps on producing eyesense > which arises and falls away. > Considering the different factors that keep on producing ruupas of the body > even at this moment can help us to be less attached to the idea of 'my > body'. > > **** > Nina. azita: sure makes anti-wrinkle lotions and 'special' eye creams look totally ridiculous and over priced :-)) BTW, you don't have to answer this also ridiculous quip. patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 49565 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Swee, Nina, all, You included my name in your address, perhaps because we discussed this before. Htoo: > I agree with Swee Boon. > > If one can follow what has been instructed in satipatthaana sutta the > fruit will be one of 2 alternatives that is arahat or non-returner. > This is possible in 7 days and maximum is 7 years. > > If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is > they do not follow the Path exactly. Sukinder: I too believe that depending on the level of practice and other conditions, pativedha can arise in 7 years, 7 months, 7 days, 7 minutes or even 7 seconds. But are we in agreement? I don't think so, because I do not agree at all with Swee Boon's points. You say that you do, which would include the following statements: Swee: > The Buddha did not teach us to develop panna over numerous > lifetimes.He absolutely did not! > > He wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now, > and he never said anything about so-called past accumulations or > whatever nonsense/excuses that is often quoted. > > He said that ANYONE who practises the way he taught, yes ANYONE, even > those without any "accumulations" at all, would attain non-return or > unbinding here and now! Sukinder: Do you agree with the part about "past accumulations"? If so, the obvious question is, what about the distinction between ti-hetuka and dvi-hetuka individuals? But this is just a `theoretical' point; let us try to be more concrete ;-). Do you agree that by pakatupanissaya paccaya, the probability of satipatthana arising is extremely low if not almost nil for the average person, like me, ;-)? And this is after hearing much Dhamma with perhaps a good many moments of pariyatti level of sati? Do you think that what is in fact needed for patipatti to arise often enough to condition actualization of the above estimates, is any *deliberate watchfulness*? What paccaya would you put this in? It was interesting for me to read your series on the "akusala dhammas", the `latent tendencies' and so on, and to note particularly the tendency to silabattaparamasa. You will agree that this is very strong in us putthujanas and can be conditioned to arise so easily with any hint of something being offered as a `method' for liberation. I think this is why it is connected with sakaya ditthi, for as long as there is self view, one is always seeking a method. So Htoo, should what is taught in the Satipatthana Sutta be seen as a "method", especially by us who have some knowledge of the Abhidhamma? The Buddha's audience who *could* achieve the goal in 7 years and so on, had to be able to recognize self-view when it arose and know it when their practice becomes `rite and ritual'. Can you Htoo, sincerely state that you are able to catch `self-view' when it arises? And do you accept that the very idea of having a `programmed activity' i.e. time and place for formal practice, is the stuff of which rite and ritual is made? You have given extreme examples such as `behaving as dogs' and so on as silabattaparamasa, what do you see as the essential difference in this regard, between this and the idea of setting a special time and place for formal meditation? Another point, Swee Boon says: ""He wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now, and he never said anything about so-called past accumulations or whatever nonsense/excuses that is often quoted."" Do you also see some of us referring to `past accumulations' as nonsense/excuses? If so, would it be a kind of wrong view on our part? What is it? Do you think as Swee thinks, that "the Buddha wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now"? And do you believe that hearing *one* Buddha is enough for achieving enlightenment? Is the path so easy!!!? Coming back to your own statement, you said: ""If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is they do not follow the Path exactly."" Here there seem to be a hint of "self view". I agree that if all the conditions are in place, then the goal will be reached and if not, then it won't. Putting it differently I would state that if the goal is reached, then it is because of conditions and if it hasn't been, then this too would be because of conditions. However there is absolutely no one to point the finger at. I think it is very useful to understand and keep in mind pakatupanissaya paccaya. Even now what we see or think about can condition either akusala or kusala. For me I know that it is almost perpetually the former, so I don't think that were there to arise sincere intention associated with the idea of `formal practice' that it would be any different. Thinking oneself to be a Buddhist or that one is following the Buddha's teachings and repeatedly telling oneself that one must practice, does not mean that the right path will be taken. Conditions rule, in particular the `accumulations' ;-) and not what we tell ourselves about "our practice". Metta, Sukinder. ps: I agree with you on the point about the Buddha not having another's citta as object but his own, and that it would be real time. ;-) 49566 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 0:48am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 263- Attachment/lobha (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] So long as there is clinging there will be birth, old age, sickness and death. Desire is the second noble Truth, the origin of dukkha. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (III, no. 141, the Analysis of the Truths) that Såriputta said to the monks about the second noble Truth: * "And what, your reverences, is the ariyan truth of the arising of dukkha? Whatever craving is connected with again-becoming, accompanied by delight and attachment, finding delight in this and that, namely the craving for sense-pleasures, the craving for becoming, the craving for annihilation— this, your reverences, is called the ariyan truth of the arising of dukkha." * Craving is one of the links in the “Dependent Origination”. Ignorance and craving are the roots of the “wheel of becoming”, the cycle of birth and death (Visuddhimagga XVII, 285). In the Thera-gåthå (57, Kuìivihårin 2) the kamma which produces rebirth is symbolised by the building of a dwelling place, a hut. Who still has desire to “build” will be reborn. A Thera did his studies in an old hut. He thought: ”This old hut is now rotten; I ought to make another”. So he turned his mind to new action (kamma). A spirit who was seeking salvation said to him: * "This was an ancient hut, you say? To build Another hut, a new one, is your wish? O cast away the longing for a hut! New hut will bring new pain, monk, to you." * When the Thera heard these words he was agitated, developed insight and attained arahatship. For him there were no more conditions for rebirth, since he was free from clinging. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49567 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 1:53am Subject: This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? christine_fo... Hello all, This man claims to be an Arahant - could this be true? He seems to be a medical practitioner in America. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, upon becoming an arahant, it is necessary to become a bhikkhu, and move into a monastery, or one will die ... does anyone know where I might have read that? http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.html metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49568 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... sarahprocter... Hi Alan M*, --- Alan McClure wrote: >After sending off a few messages, I managed to procure a list of suttas that a certain person in the Pali group believed to speak of an "antaraabhava." We have already seen the last one on the list, the "Kutuhalasala Sutta" and have seen Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's rebuttal of the idea of the antaraabhava in this sutta.< ... S: Thank you for the suttas you gave references for. I just looked at a couple more including this one you and others were discussing. To be clear, I understand it is the commentary's clarification which B.Bodhi refers to on this: S 44:9 "When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel." B.Bodhi's note says "Spk [S: commentary to SN] contends that at the death moment itself the being is said to be 'not yet reborn' because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen." I believe the following passage which Larry recently quoted from the Visuddhimagga, X1V, is relevant, differentiating between the conventional and ultimate descriptions of rebirth: "187. Herein, (a) firstly, 'according to extent': in the case of a single becoming of one [living being], previous to rebirth-linking is 'past', subsequent to death is 'future', between these two is 'present'. <71> ----------------------------- Note 71. 'Here when the time is delimited by death and rebirth-linking the term "extent" is applicable. It is made known through the Suttas in the way beginning "Was I in the past?" (M.i,18); for the past state is likewise mentioned as "extent" in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta too in the way beginning "He does not follow what is past (the past extent)" (M.iii,188). But when it is delimited in the ultimate sense as in the Addhaaniruttipatha Sutta thus, "Bhikkhus, there are three extents, the past extent, the future extent, and the present extent" (Iti.53), then it is appropriate as delimited by moment. Herein, the existingness of the present is stated thus, "Bhikkhus, of matter that is born ... manifested, it is said that 'It exists'" (S.iii,72), and pastness and futureness are respectively called before and after that' (Pm.496)." ***** Nina also wrote the following in her discussion of the Tiika to this passage (#49415): "The Diigha Nikaaya, Sangiiti Sutta, the threes, XXIV, states: The word addhaa, translated as period, is used here. The Co. to this passage explains that there is the Suttanta method and the Abhidhamma method of explanation. In the Suttanta method past, future and present periods are used in conventional sense, as lifespan. In the Abhidhamma method, addhaa is used in the sense of moment." ***** S: Just to pick up on a couple of your other references only: A:>* Metta Sutta (Khp 9, Sn 1:8) etc re: bhuta (those who have been born) and sambhavesi (those seeking birth). Khp 9: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#9< .... S: I think we need to consider all such terms such as 'bhuta' and 'sambhavesi' very carefully in context. From the Metta Sutta (Nanamoli transl): 'Whatever breathings beings there are, 'No matter................etc 'That are or that yet seek to be, 'Let every creature's heart rejoice.' .... 'Bhuuta vaa sambhavesii vaa (that are or that yet seek to be) Commentary note: " 'That are (bhuutaa)': that have been born, generated; they are reckoned thus 'They are (have been), they will not be again', which is a designation for those with taints exhausted, [namely, Arahants]. 'That yet seek to be: sambhavesino = sambhavam esanti (resolution of compound); this is a designation for Initiates [S: sekha (trainers)] and ordinary men, who still seek being (sambhavam esantaanaa'm) in the future because they have not abandoned the fetter of being (existence). "Or alternatively, in the case of womb generation (see e.g M i 73), creatures that are egg-born or uterus-born are called those 'that yet seek to be' as long as they have not broken the egg-membrane or the caul-membrane [respectively]; but when they have broken the egg-membrane or the caul-membrane and have come out, they are called those 'that are'. "However, moisture-born creatures and those of spontaneous appearance are called those 'that yet seek to be' in the first moment of their cognizance, and they are called those 'that are' from the moment of the second cognizance; or else they are those 'that yet seek to be' as long as they do not reach any posture other than that in which they were born, while after that they are called those 'that are'." ***** S: Previously we also discussed SN 12:64 (see my post #33266) which discusses the same term: Connie: > There are these four nutriments for the establishing of beings who have taken birth or for the support of *those in search of a place to be born*. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, consciousness the third, and intellectual intention the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the establishing of beings or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. [SN XII.64] Thanissaro Bhikkhu mentions "sambhavesin" and calls it/them(?) 'the momentary state of being b/n death and rebirth', acknowledging that there is no such thing in a strict Thera position, but that anecdotal material from around the world seems to support such a thing.< .... S: He is correct that there 'is no such thing in a strict Thera position' anyway;-). B.Bodhi gives the title to the sutta of 'If there is Lust'. If there is lust for maintenance and becoming, samsara continues supported by the 4 nutriments. B. Bodhi translates the phrase 'sambhavesin' as 'those seeking a new existence'. Buddhadatta gives 'sambhavana' = coming into existence and 'sambhavesii' = one who is seeking birth. Jim gave the following commentary detail before:>" "OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.). The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards)."< ***** Thanks again for your helpful contributions here, Alan. I'll look forward to any more. Metta, Sarah *We also have Alan L who occasionally posts and some of us refer to Alan W who runs the Zolag website. ====== 49569 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: Mahaanidanasutta, Control - Matheesha? kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, It was not clear from your message whether you would still be around to read this, but I am sending it anyway. Any reply you would like to make, no matter how late, will be welcome. --------------------- <. . .> M: > I dont think he always meant it to be deep. I remember Anathapindika on his death bed crying out to Sariputta asking him why he didnt teach him the deeper dhamma when he finally did do it. ---------------------- It is said that some people were able to hear the teaching in brief and yet understand it in detail. I believe those lucky few had accumulated right understanding from former lifetimes - under former Buddhas - but I would like to hear your theory on that. -------------------------------------------------- KH: > > Today that is not the case, and Buddhism is > widely considered as just another course in meditation. .............. M: Sadly, yes. But at least no one would consider it a course in theory fortunately. -------------------------------------------------- Which comes first, the theory or the practice? ------------ K: > > Ignorant people may think that - > provided there is no harming - precepts can be kept when there is > wrong view or attachment or conceit etc. .............. M: > I try not to call others ignorant. ------------ Ignorance of the Dhamma is everywhere, and we are all uninstructed worldlings - some more uninstructed than others. ------------------------ <. . .> M: > It seems clear to me that the dhamma is not a one dimensional thing to be doled out with the same spoon to everyone. Try teaching abhidhamma to a robber and a rapist and you'll see what I mean. ------------------------- Yes, teaching methods do vary, but there is only one Dhamma. --------------------------------------- M: > If we look at the noble eightfold path samma sati gives rise to samma samadhi which in turn leads to samma gnana and samma vimukti. I dont think, that you think that you can bypass samma samadhi and get to the other two. --------------------------------------- One cetasika conditions another. I don't see the problem. ------------------------- M: > Or maybe the question should be - what do you consider as samma samadhi. Access concentration is not mentioned anywhere in the suttas. The four jhaanas as samma samadhi is mentioned multiple times in the suttas. Also samadhi wich is conditioned by the other path factors is mentioned once in the mahacattasarika sutta. On the balance of the evidence, jhana based on right understanding seems to hold sway. The question is why is jhana the 8th step of the noble rightfold path, and not tea drinking based on right understanding. It seems that right understanding alone is not enough, after all it is present in the other 6 path factors as well. ------------------------- Samma-samadhi arises in all moments of insight, regardless of whether the practitioner has learnt jhana. It is just momentary concentration on the object (in this case, on Nibbana). ---------------------------------------- M: > I recently studied for 8 hours in one day. I never reached any type of samadhi. ---------------------------------------- Samadhi is a universal cetasika: it arises in all consciousness. In kusala moments it is accompanied by pasaddhi-cetasika (mental calm). Perhaps that is what was missing. Or, there may have been kusala moments and you didn't appreciate the mental calm at the time. ----------- M: > However if I focus on my breath I can reach the first jhana in about 30 minutes. ----------- You have been misled as to the true nature of jhana. ------------------------ M: > The idea that studying can give rise any useful form of samadhi (useful for purposes of the dhamma) is not found in any of the suttas as far as I know. Can you find a reference? ------------------------ Right understanding always comes first and right concentration always arises dependent upon it and in support of it. There is no way of developing either of those dhammas on its own. ----------------------------------- KH: > > In a paramattha moment > of vipassana, right understanding is the forerunner. ........... M: > I agree that the mahacattasarika sutta says right understanding is the forerunner... It does lead us to practice (you might object to that word) the right and not the wrong as mentioned in the suttas. ----------------------------------- The only right practice is the one that occurs in a conditioned moment of consciousness. A moment of consciousness is not like conventional reality, in which there is a self to make things happen. -------------------------------------- M: > I was trying to bring out an important point, in that to call it a forerunner is to impose (usefully perhaps) a theoretical framework on the dhammas - ie a framework which doesnt exist in absolute terms. --------------------------------------- It is a description of conditionality. Conditionality is as real as anything can be. ------------------------------------------------- M: > To classify is conventional thinking. It has our interpretations added much like we would add/interpret a Self to the pancaskanada. -------------------------------------------------- Interpretations can be consistent with reality, in which case they are called "wise consideration of the Dhamma" which is described in the suttas as one of the four factors for enlightenment. ------------------------------ M: > This is why direct observation is important. ------------------------------ Agreed, but it is panna and sati (and the other path factors) that do the observing. Whenever we think, "It is not dhammas, but I, who does the observing," we have wrong understanding. ------------- KH: > > Even though all > path factors arise together, right understanding is the cause of the > others to arise. Then, having arisen, they all support each other. ............. M: > Do you mean this at the point of giving rise to magga-citta or at some other point? ------------- In the actual moment of magga-citta, samma-ditthi is the forerunner. ---------------------- M: > There are many instances where the suttas speak of meditating. What do you make of those? ---------------------- They always refer to conditioned paramattha dhammas. Bhavana (mental development) occurs in fleeting moments of mundane-jhana, right intellectual understanding, mundane vipassana and supramundane vipassana. Nowhere in the Pali Canon is there any reference to formal meditation. That is; to activities performed in order to induce calm or understanding. ------------------------------------ KH: > > But real > (paramattha) meditation is the moment that follows automatically (in > the same instant) whenever a brief flash of right understanding is > conditioned to arise. .......... M: > Yes, that is the first time it happens. It can be conditioned to arise continuously, especially if you follow the satipattana instructions: 'putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world' which is commonly forgotten. -------------------------- There are no instructions in the Satipatthana Sutta - instructions belong to the illusory world. The Buddha described how the world actually is, so we could verify that description for ourselves. -------------------------- M: > Without seeing it continuously it is very difficult to get to the anicca means dukka understanding (does your knowledge make you feel like giving up on the dhammas or make you interested in it more). --------------------------- When there is genuine knowledge of dhammas, the conditions for lobha (and all kinds of akusala) are reduced. However, whenever someone who is not experiencing renunciation, seeks to experience renunciation, there is bound to be craving and wrong view. ---------------------------------- <. . .> M: Might i suggest that other factors like the brahmaviharas, sila and samadhi has a role to play in it quite apart from panna. ---------------------------------- If we understand conditionality, dana sila and samatha are more likely to arise than they would have if we did not understand. -------------------------------------- <. . .> M: Yes, but it remains that the wood gets chopped! Things can be changed. Or to put it in another way, the content of dhammas arising which have chopped wood as opposed to unchopped wood as object, can be altered. It doesnt require a self to do that. -------------------------------------- I agree that the concept of chopped wood can arise without wrong view. It is also possible that it can arise with wrong view. For example, we might think, "As proof of a doer of deeds, I am converting this unchopped wood into chopped wood." ---------------------------- M: > Ken, I'm going to have to leave you now. I'm sorry but I'm again spending too much time at the keyboard, to the point it is an addiction -it is affecting the rest of my life. I wish I could come to some kind of a conclusion, but that is not to be. Good luck, ---------------------------- Thanks, Matheesha, good luck to you too. Ken H 49570 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:36am Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] sarahprocter... Hi James & Amr (& Phil), (trying to follow Joop's good advice and changing the subject heading a little:)) --- buddhatrue wrote: >> No Amr at all. > > .... > > > Amr and I had a very funny discussion about your post to him. I > don't know if he will reply but I will try to get him to. The > funniest part of the discussion was whether he exists or not! LOL! ... S: Please do (encourage him). I'm glad that you both had some fun discussion following it anyway! .... > Really, do you think it is very skillful to tell a beginning > Buddhist, fresh from a different religion, that he doesn't exist?? .... S: Ah, I was relying on your persuasive communication skills to fill in the gaps, James! Alternatively, I thought it might write back and say that he had no idea what I was talking about (or Phil for that matter, I noted) and could we elaborate....After all, why else embrace Buddhism? ... > Did the Buddha ever tell people, especially those new to the dhamma, > that they don't exist? ... S: Isn't this what was stressed in the very first suttas such as the Anattalakkhana Sutta? (Discourse on Not-self' .... >You seem to have become fanatical with this > viewpoint and it has made you lose some of your common sense. ... S: I'll take that as a compliment, thank you:). .... > One other thing he mentioned, which I agree with: It is presumptious > (my word choice) for you to tell him not to change his religion when > he has already done so and told you he had done so- and he had made > the decision on his own. Do you often tell people what religion > they should follow? ... S: I try to suggest that the core understanding of dhammas does not depend on the garb we wear, the temple or mosque we visit or the cultural norms we've been brought up in. Such an understanding should make it easier, not harder to live amongst those with different beliefs, religions and so on. Also, I tried to stress that there would be little sense in someone like Amr deliberately putting himself in danger or in a position where he'd have to show deceit. The Buddha never suggested this or told anyone they needed to do this, did he? .... >I never told him to stop believing in Islam, > that was his choice; and when he did so I didn't tell him to believe > in it again. That would be silly! ... S: I agree. As I said, no one can touch his inner beliefs and understanding. Does this mean he has to advertise it, knowing it will cause distress to family members, for example? Of course not. Perhaps we misunderstood each other. ... >Even if his life is in danger, > it is his choice. Again, your fanatical viewpoints seem to be > clouding over some common sense. ... S: Let's use another example: If you see a student is putting his/her life in danger, wouldn't you give a caution? Wouldn't that be common sense rather than fanaticism? In fact, wouldn't the 'putting his/her life in danger unnecessarily' be the fanatical route? ... > > I will try to get Amr to respond since he has a way of expressing > himself that I can't possibly duplicate. ... S: I agree he has his own charming way. I apologise if I said anything inappropriate. Perhaps he'll respond to Phil's kind letter if that worked better. Metta, Sarah ======== 49571 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:42am Subject: Buddhaghosa again [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I haven't received a reply from him yet so I think he must be too > busy or not interested in entering the controversy. However, see > the post which Herman sent to me which supports my contention. ... S: Any comments that any writers make can only be based on the same sources I referred you to, I think. i.e the commentaries including B's own words and the Mahavamsa. ... > > p.s You mentioned a couple of times that Buddhaghosa was not > himself > > enlightened. He may not have been an arahant, but do you have any > evidence > > to suggest he was not an ariyan disciple (i.e sotapanna or higher)? > > ========== > > No. I didn't write anything about that. Not sure if he was an > ariyan disciple, just know that the research points out that he > wasn't enlightened- as he wrote himself in one of his writings. ... S: What do you mean by 'enlightened'? What exactly are you referring to in his writings? Metta, Sarah ======= 49572 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > "Herein those 'with skill in good', praised either in so far as > they are > > established in the virtue that provides non-remorse, or [in so far > as] > > they exert themselves in the 'way of suppression of defilement', > [or in so > > far as they attain] the paths and fruitions, are 'those with skill > in > > good' in this sense.' And those bhikkhus were of such kinds." > > > > The bhikkhus addressed were ripe for attaining the various jhanas > and > > becoming arahants too. > > James: Sarah, that is not what this commentary states. .... S: I was pointing out the fact, i.e that the commentary later indicates that those bhikkhus addressed attained all jhanas and became arahants at this time. .... >Those who > are 'skilled in good' includes those who are "established in virtue > that provides non-remorse" OR those other types of ariyan > disciples. In other words, this sutta is addressed to anyone who > follows the five precepts. ... S: Usually 'established in virtue' refers to adhi-sila I believe, established or fulfilled or perfected virtue, i.e the sotapanna. We may follow the five precepts, but are not 'established in virute'. Metta, Sarah ========== 49573 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma dictionary (Thai) sarahprocter... Hi Jaran, Seems like a loooong time since we saw you or spoke. Hope all's well. Any more visits to Hong Kong? --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Dear Khun Tep: > > The files require Acrobat Reader. The behavior you described is probably > because your acrobat reader has not been configured to work with your > browser. It's best to download them and view it off-line. Simply right > click on the links and choose "Save As". ... S: I have to say that I had the same trouble as Tep and gave up, but it's probably more relevant for him. I was just curious. How are your dhamma studies going? Any gems to share from your Thai listening? We'd love to hear more from you here. When we were recently in Bangkok we asked after you with an old friend of yours (from Burma days). She said you hadn't visited Bkk for quite a while. Perhaps you can join us when we visit in the New Year if you're not going to India. Metta, Sarah =========== 49574 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide in Theravada Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, I'm always very glad to read your posts: --- nidive wrote: > Hi Group, > > I read this sutta called Advice to Venerable Channa at the following > address. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/ > 144-channovada-e.htm > > If you would bother to read through it, I have questions to ask. > > 1. Why did the Buddha declare that Venerable Channa's suicide is > faultless? > 2. Was Venerable Channa an arahant? > 3. Is is true that an arahant who commits suicide is faultless? > 4. Does committing suicide violate the five precepts? .... S: B.Bodhi quotes the commentary notes to this sutta: "MA: He cut his throat, and just at that moment the fear of death descended on him and the sign of future rebirth appeared. Recognising that he was still an ordinary person, he was aroused and developed insight. Comprehending the formations, he attained arahantship just before he expired." The Buddha says: "Sariputta, when one lays down this body and clings to a new body, then I say one is blameworthy. There was none of that in the bhikkhu Channa; the bhikkhu Channa used the knife blamelessly." Sariputta had asked about the future destination and so I understand the Buddha to be indicating his attainment of arahantship just before dying. I don't believe an arahant would ever commit suicide. Killing refers to the taking away of life of another being as I understand. So suicide would indicate strong akusala tendencies, but not the taking of another's life as I see it. Happy to hear any other references. .... > > Also I read about Anathapindika's daughter Sumana who let her life > wasted away at the following address. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel334.html > <...> > Isn't Sumana's behaviour tantamount to suicide (by refusing to consume > food)? > > Since she is a once-returner, she cannot violate the 5 precepts. ... S: I've always been very moved by the account of Sumana. In another place they mention she was a sakadagami if I recall correctly. No she couldn't violate the 5 precepts and so she couldn't take another's life. With regard to the intentions, I think there is a distinction between suicide (an active harming/taking of one's life) and just wasting away by not eating which is quite common amongst the elderly, I believe. .... > > This suggests that taking one's own life is a "legal" option available > to those Noble Ones who have reached at least the sotapanna stage of > enlightenment, doesn't it? > > Afterall, they would not be reborn in any woeful realms, and they can > only be reborn at most seven times. .... S: As I said, I don't think it is necessarily 'taking one's own life'. I agree that a sotapanna cannot kill (another) being and cannot be reborn in a woeful plane. Atthasalini, Courses of Immoral Action: " 'Life' here (literally breathing thing), in common parlance, means a being; in its ultimate sense, living force. And the term 'life-taking' is applied to the bodily and vocal doors of one who is conscious that a being is living, and who produces an effort to cut off the living force in that being." **** S: I take this to refer to the life of other beings. However, I'm doubtful that a sotapanna would take his/her own life either.... I'll be glad to hear any more of your comments on this (or anyone else's). Metta, Sarah p.s I forget if there is anything relevant to this under 'Suicide' in Useful Posts. =========== 49575 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 5:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 519 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are mixed dhamma that is dhamma made up of citta, cetasikas, and ruupas in many different combinations. There are 4 different great stocks of dhamma. They are 1. akusala stock or akusala sangaha 2. peer stock or missaka sangaha 3. enlightening-companion stock or Bodhipakkhiya sangaha 4. general stock or sabba sangaha The first two stocks ( 9 akusala stocks and 7 peer stocks) have been discussed in the previous posts. There are 7 different stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. they are 1. the stock of mindfulness or satipatthaana 2. the stock of effort or sammappadhaana 3. the stock of accomplishing-power or iddhipaada 4. the stock of faculty or indriya 5. the stock of power/strength or bala 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor or bojjhanga 7. the stock of path-factor or magganga 1. the stock of mindfulness or satipatthaana These are 4 satipatthaana or 4 contemplations or 4 frames of reference for mindfulness. They are 1. body contemplation or kaayaanupassana satipatthaana 2. feeling contemplation or vedanaanupassana satipatthaana 3. consciousness contemplation or cittaanupassana satipatthaana 4. dhamma contemplation or dhammaanupassana satipatthaana The chief dhamma here is sati cetasika or mindfulness even though there are many other very important dhammas in satipatthaana. There are 261 contemplations on body, 30 contemplations on feeling, 51 contemplations on consciousness and 108 contemplations on dhamma. They will be discussed in the following posts under Dhamma Thread heading as a continuous series. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49576 From: "Alan McClure" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Therav... alanmcclure3 Sarah Said: Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > This man claims to be an Arahant - could this be true? He seems to be > a medical practitioner in America. > > I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, upon becoming an arahant, > it is necessary to become a bhikkhu, and move into a monastery, or one > will die ... does anyone know where I might have read that? > > http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.html > > metta and peace, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, I feel that it is systematic re-writing in own style. But not that right. Regarding arahats; Arahats MUST be living on sammaa-aajiiva. The only (true) sammaa-aajiiva can occur in bhikkhus. Non-bhikkhu people who become arahats die in 7 days and most die in 24 hours. This does not mean 'ordination prevents death'. When lifespan does not have more than 24 hours arahats do not enter the order of sangha because they do not have time to perform the duties of sangha. When there are more than 7 days of lifespan left, arahats do enter the order of sangha. There is no reason to stay as lay people. There is no arahats who are actively doing worldly jobs like doctors, bankers, money changer, businessmen, musicians, etc etc. And arahats will never (NEVER) announce arahatship to lay people who are not arahats. Arahats inform arahatship to arahats only. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am smiling while reading that site. Here I announce that I am a puthujana. But I have studied arahatly things and I may be able to talk arahatly things. There are sets of questions that test attainment. Those who claim to be arahats may turn out to be puthujanas when they answer those questions. 49578 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_1) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - I have a new approach to our Dhamma discussion, and I think it will work fine for us. The idea is for us to ask only one question in a message, and when replying we will limit the number of question to only one again. When there is no more question to ask or to answer, then that is the end of the thread. Let's try it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very good idea. But there might be more than one questions arise from a single message. So when reply put a parenthesis as discussion 1 for the 1st question and 2 for 2nd question and so on. Example a) Original heading 'Looking at feeling' b) Simple reply 'Re: Looking at feeling' c) One-question Approach 'Re:Looking at feeling (Discussion_1) All the discussions under a question can go on and on as long as there is no settling or open that for furture discussion. When close, the final reply should be d) One-question Approach closed 'Re:Looking at feeling (Discussion_1_closed) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Question ------------- What benefits can one gain from knowing the six feelings and the associated events in all detail? Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer ------------- 1. knowledge of true naama (vedanaa) in real time 2. knowledge of true naama (vedanaa) in real sense 3. knowledge of true naama (vedanaa) in full depth 4. seeing or realizing naama (vedana) as it is 5. seeing or realizing naama (vedanaa) as it arises 6. seeing or realizing naama (vedanaa) as it stays (persists) 7. seeing or realizing naama (vedanaa) as it vanishes 8. seeing the character that naama (vedanaa) bears like anicca 9. seeing the character that naama (vedanaa) bears like dukkha 10.seeing the character that naama (vedanaa) bears like anatta 11.seeing the suffering as it is in depth (the naama_vedanaa) 12.seeing the cause of suffering as it is in depth while eliminating 13.seeing the cessation of suffering (the naama_vedanaa) as it is 14.developing the Path leading to cessation of suffering 15.seeing the conditional relationship of dhamma vedanaa and others and many more. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49579 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi RobertK, > Dear Htoo, > As I read that sutta the Buddha said that he would expect 7 days for > anyone who developed satipatthana correctly should be either arahant > or anagami. He did start with seven years but then corrected that to > seven days. > I am wondering if you clam to one of those who has correctly > developed saipatthana for seven days or more? > Robertk Instead of presenting one significant sutta that contradicts DN 22, you chose to cast doubts in Htoo's faith in the Buddha's word. Disappointment, utter disappointment! This is SO unlike your usual style. Regards, Swee Boon 49580 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Suicide in Theravada Buddhism nidive Hi Sarah, I am delighted at your reply! > "MA: He cut his throat, and just at that moment the fear of death > descended on him and the sign of future rebirth appeared. > Recognising that he was still an ordinary person, he was aroused > and developed insight. Comprehending the formations, he attained > arahantship just before he expired." > The Buddha says: > "Sariputta, when one lays down this body and clings to a new body, > then I say one is blameworthy. There was none of that in the > bhikkhu Channa; the bhikkhu Channa used the knife blamelessly." If Channa was still an ordinary person when he committed suicide, isn't that a blameworthy act? Then I can't understand why the Buddha said that Channa used the knife blamelessly. He should have "chided" Channa first before praising him. > I don't believe an arahant would ever commit suicide. Not sure about this. They have no more clinging left and premature ending of extreme physical pain appears to be a blameless action to me. > Killing refers to the taking away of life of another being as I > understand. So suicide would indicate strong akusala tendencies, > but not the taking of another's life as I see it. Agree! Suicide does not violate the 5 precepts. > With regard to the intentions, I think there is a distinction > between suicide (an active harming/taking of one's life) and just > wasting away by not eating which is quite common amongst the > elderly, I believe. There must be an intention involved when one decides not to take food. To me, this intention is similar to active harming of one's own life. It is not as if Sumana cannot afford food. Her father is a rich man! Regards, Swee Boon 49581 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo) htootintnaing Dear Sukin (Swee Boon, Nina and all), Thanks Sukin for your comprehensive reply. The whole message is clear. I have been looking for what is missing. Please see the discussions below. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, Swee, Nina, all, You included my name in your address, perhaps because we discussed this before. {Htoo says_Yes, of course. We did.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: > Htoo: > > I agree with Swee Boon. > > If one can follow what has been instructed in satipatthaana sutta the > > fruit will be one of 2 alternatives that is arahat or non- returner. > > This is possible in 7 days and maximum is 7 years. > > If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is > > they do not follow the Path exactly. Sukinder: I too believe that depending on the level of practice and other conditions, pativedha can arise in 7 years, 7 months, 7 days, 7 minutes or even 7 seconds. But are we in agreement? I don't think so, because I do not agree at all with Swee Boon's points. You say that you do, which would include the following statements: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please check what The Buddha said as 'yo hi koci'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: > Swee: > > The Buddha did not teach us to develop panna over numerous > > lifetimes.He absolutely did not! > > He wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now, > > and he never said anything about so-called past accumulations or > > whatever nonsense/excuses that is often quoted. > > He said that ANYONE who practises the way he taught, yes ANYONE, > even > > those without any "accumulations" at all, would attain non-return or > > unbinding here and now! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with Swee Boon. Yes. ANYONE. The Buddha did not talked accumulations in mahaasatipatthaana sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Do you agree with the part about "past accumulations"? If so, the obvious question is, what about the distinction between ti-hetuka and dvi-hetuka individuals? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know this would be theoretical as we cannot know who is tihetuka and who is dvihetuka. But obviously dvihetuka will not be able to follow the Path exactly. Here you might say that 'Htoo believes there is a particular Path and that Path has to be followed. That Htoo's belief is siilabbataparaamaasa.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But this is just a `theoretical' point; let us try to be more concrete ;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine whether abstract or concrete. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do you agree that by pakatupanissaya paccaya, the probability of satipatthana arising is extremely low if not almost nil for the average person, like me, ;-)? And this is after hearing much Dhamma with perhaps a good many moments of pariyatti level of sati? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) . Well! I must agree. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do you think that what is in fact needed for patipatti to arise often enough to condition actualization of the above estimates, is any *deliberate watchfulness*? What paccaya would you put this in? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear here. Sorry I said above all were clear. This is an exception-portion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It was interesting for me to read your series on the "akusala dhammas", the `latent tendencies' and so on, and to note particularly the tendency to silabattaparamasa. You will agree that this is very strong in us putthujanas and can be conditioned to arise so easily with any hint of something being offered as a `method' for liberation. I think this is why it is connected with sakaya ditthi, for as long as there is self view, one is always seeking a method. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When the rain was just coming bhikkhus approached The Buddha and asked for 'A METHOD'. When they obtained they went to their intended places and continued with their method that was given by The Buddha. I think we are in the cycle of usages. Yes. I agree that self-view has to be destroyed. But this only happen at sotapatti magga kaala or when sotaapatti magga naana arises. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So Htoo, should what is taught in the Satipatthana Sutta be seen as a "method", especially by us who have some knowledge of the Abhidhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Should or should not? Here 'method' has to be defined. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The Buddha's audience who *could* achieve the goal in 7 years and so on, had to be able to recognize self-view when it arose and know it when their practice becomes `rite and ritual'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Self-view is automatically departed temporarily when in satipatthaana. But as soon as self-view reproaches satipatthaana is departed. As soon as departed one is not following exactly what The Buddha taught. Very clear. That is why The Buddha said 'ANYONE'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Can you Htoo, sincerely state that you are able to catch `self-view' when it arises? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Definitely no. Because I am not a sotaapana. I am just a puthujana. Your question was 'when it arises'. This means whenever it arises. But I can catch some times when self-view arises. At that time, I just note that I know that there arose self-view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And do you accept that the very idea of having a `programmed activity' i.e. time and place for formal practice, is the stuff of which rite and ritual is made? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What did The Buddha say in 'Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta'? Whether I accept or not can be seen in my post under siilabbataparaamaasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You have given extreme examples such as `behaving as dogs' and so on as silabattaparamasa, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not my 'extreme examples'. This is what The Buddha and Sunakkatta exchanged. Do you believe that I am creating new account of Dhamma? Once The Buddha took a trip and He was followed by Sunakkhatta. There they met a naked person and behaving like a dog. Sunakkhatta was very happy to see him and told The Buddha that the person seemed pure and asked The Buddha what would his future fate be. The Buddha replied that 'If he fulfils all the practices of dogs he would be reborn as a dog and if not he would be reborn in hell realm'. On the same trip there met another person. He was behaving like a bull. The same questions and answers ensued. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: what do you see as the essential difference in this regard, between this and the idea of setting a special time and place for formal meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not find any 'formal meditation' in teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Another point, Swee Boon says: ""He wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now, and he never said anything about so-called past accumulations or whatever nonsense/excuses that is often quoted."" Sukin: Do you also see some of us referring to `past accumulations' as nonsense/excuses? If so, would it be a kind of wrong view on our part? What is it? Do you think as Swee thinks, that "the Buddha wanted us to develop liberating panna in this life here and now"? And do you believe that hearing *one* Buddha is enough for achieving enlightenment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You seem to be assuming that hearing *one* Buddha is not enough. Let it be. Might be I met thousands of Buddhas. But as I had been stupid and ignorant I was not liberated. Today I am here. Today view; I seem to hear just *one* Buddha that is The Buddha Siddhattha Gotama. This may or may not be true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is the path so easy!!!? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have to re-ask you. Is the Path so difficult !!!? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Coming back to your own statement, you said: ""If not attain, then there is something wrong with followers. That is they do not follow the Path exactly."" Here there seem to be a hint of "self view". I agree that if all the conditions are in place, then the goal will be reached and if not, then it won't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha ha ha. [Sarah would also be smiling]. I am even not a sotapanna. I have declared that I am a puthujana. So why do I need to bother 'self-view'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Putting it differently I would state that if the goal is reached, then it is because of conditions and if it hasn't been, then this too would be because of conditions. However there is absolutely no one to point the finger at. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is seeing from outside of real person with abhidhamma view while real dhamma has not been realized_I mean pa.tivedha. Let's say there is a practitioner. He is a real person. But you see him as 'combination of naama and ruupa' with preformed abhidhamma- view, which is not your own realization. Yes. There is no one. No Htoo. No Sukin. No practitioner. But 'these no's will end up when we die if we do not realize. For realization one has to practise. I think 'as soon as you hear *practice* you are allergic to that and assume it as 'siilabbataparaamaasa'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think it is very useful to understand and keep in mind pakatupanissaya paccaya. Even now what we see or think about can condition either akusala or kusala. For me I know that it is almost perpetually the former, so I don't think that were there to arise sincere intention associated with the idea of `formal practice' that it would be any different. Thinking oneself to be a Buddhist or that one is following the Buddha's teachings and repeatedly telling oneself that one must practice, does not mean that the right path will be taken. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are practical abhidhammaa. Some never come out of theoretical abhidhammaa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Conditions rule, in particular the `accumulations' ;-) and not what we tell ourselves about "our practice". Metta, Sukinder. ps: I agree with you on the point about the Buddha not having another's citta as object but his own, and that it would be real time. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for being a good Dhamma friend. Triplegem is my first group and you invited me to join DSG. DSG is my second group. JourneyToNibbana is my own group. Now I am a member of 89 groups. With much respect, Htoo Naing 49582 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 7:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 520 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bojjhanga sangaha there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) There are 4 satipatthaanas or 4 frames of reference of mindfulness or there are 4 contemplations. They are 1. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'body-contemplation'(261) 2. vedanaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'feeling-contemplation' (30) 3. cittaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'consciousness-contemplation'(51) 4. dhammaanupassanaa satipatthana or 'dhamma-contemplation' (108) In this stock all dhamma are referred to 'sati' cetasika even though satipatthaanas invlove many other beautiful dhamma or sobhana dhamma like 'viiriya' 'pannaa' etc etc. 1. 261 body-contemplations or 261 kaayaanupassanaas There are 14 contemplations on 'body'. They are 1. 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2. 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3. 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4. 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5. 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6. 06 contemplations on 'stage 1 body foulness' 7. 06 contemplations on 'stage 2 body foulness' 8. 06 contemplations on 'stage 3 body foulness' 9. 06 contemplations on 'stage 4 body foulness' 10.06 contemplations on 'stage 5 body foulness' 11.06 contemplations on 'stage 6 body foulness' 12.06 contemplations on 'stage 7 body foulness' 13.06 contemplations on 'stage 8 body foulness' 14.06 contemplations on 'stage 9 body foulness' ----- 00261 contemplations on 'body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaas 2. 30 feeling-contemplations or 30 vedanaanupassanaas 1. 3 contemplations on 'sukha' 'dukkha' 'adukkhamasukha' each on own. 2. 3 contemplations on kama-bait sukha, kb dukkha, kb adukkhamasukha 3. 3 contemplations on renunciation sukha,ren dukkha, ren a-d-m-sukha 4. 3 contemplations on sukha, dukkha, a-d-m-sukha each on others'. 5. 3 contemplations on kb sukha,kb dukkha, kb a-d-m-sukha on others'. 6. 3 contemplations on ren sukha,re dukkha,re a-d-m-sukha on others'. 7. 3 contemplations on sukha, dukkha, a-d-m-sukha on both 8. 3 contemplations on kb sukha, kb dukkha, kb a-d-m-sukha on others' 9. 3 contemplations on ren sukha,re dukkha, re a-d-m-sukha on others' 10.1 contemplation on origination of these feeling 11.1 contemplation on dissolution of these feeling 12.1 contemplation on both origination and dissolution ---- 0030 contemplations on feeling May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49583 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma dictionary (Thai) jjnbdal Dear Sarah: I am fine. Thank you. Yourself? I have been busy and distracted. Slowly, I am trying to get back to Dhamma study, but hard to keep up with this very active group. Thank for summaries and comments on your visit to Bangkok. Looking forward to more. Hope Jon is well. Trip to HK may be rare. Let's meet sometimes in Bangkok. Are you going to India this year? Best Regards, jaran --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Jaran, > > Seems like a loooong time since we saw you or spoke. Hope > all's well. Any > more visits to Hong Kong? > > --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > > > Dear Khun Tep: > > > > The files require Acrobat Reader. The behavior you described > is probably > > because your acrobat reader has not been configured to work > with your > > browser. It's best to download them and view it off-line. > Simply right > > click on the links and choose "Save As". > ... > S: I have to say that I had the same trouble as Tep and gave > up, but it's > probably more relevant for him. I was just curious. > > How are your dhamma studies going? Any gems to share from your > Thai > listening? We'd love to hear more from you here. > > When we were recently in Bangkok we asked after you with an > old friend of > yours (from Burma days). She said you hadn't visited Bkk for > quite a > while. Perhaps you can join us when we visit in the New Year > if you're not > going to India. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== 49584 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - -----Original Message----- From: Christine Forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 08:53:37 -0000 Subject: [dsg] This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? Hello all, This man claims to be an Arahant - could this be true? He seems to be a medical practitioner in America. --------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! He's an epidemiologist who seems to have caught a particularly severe case of the ego bug!! BTW, I find it particularly amusing that one of his interests is in "living the fun life"! ;-)) --------------------------------------- I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, upon becoming an arahant, it is necessary to become a bhikkhu, and move into a monastery, or one will die ... does anyone know where I might have read that? -------------------------------------- Howard: I've read it too, though I forget where. I never could understand the reason. The Buddha was certainly eminently competent to live on his own, and so would most arahants be I would think. ---------------------------------------- http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.html metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ======================================= With metta, Howard 49585 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 10:45am Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Ah, I was relying on your persuasive communication skills to fill in the gaps, James! James: ;-)) If you thought I was going to convince him that he doesn't exist, you were seriously mistaken. I explained to him dependent co-arising of phenomenon and impermanence and how you have taken these teachings of the Buddha to mean that people don't exist. I explained to him that yours is an extreme viewpoint which I don't agree with and don't believe the Buddha taught. He can make up his mind for himself from there, in the future. Sarah: Isn't this what was stressed in the very first suttas such as the Anattalakkhana Sutta? (Discourse on Not-self' James: That sutta was addressed to monastics who had practiced renunciation and mental cultivation. Lay folk, like you, me and Amr, cannot possibly have a real understanding of non-self because our lifestyle doesn't foster such an understanding. The Buddha refused to teach non-self (anatta) to lay people due to the confusion it would create. Sarah: I'll take that as a compliment, thank you:). James: Well, it didn't mean it as a compliment or as a put down, but you are free to take it anyway you want. Sarah: I try to suggest that the core understanding of dhammas does not depend on the garb we wear, the temple or mosque we visit or the cultural norms we've been brought up in. James: The key phrase here is "core understanding of dhammas". You are not speaking of Buddhism, you are speaking of Abhidhammaism. The Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma so they are not the same. Of course you believe that Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion, because you have confused Abhidhammaism and Buddhism. Buddhism is a religion; Abhidhammaism is a philosophy. Sarah: Also, I tried to stress that there would be little sense in someone like Amr deliberately putting himself in danger or in a position where he'd have to show deceit. James: Well, I don't know what world you live in Sarah but it is definitely not the real world. People often have to put themselves in danger to affect change and they sometimes have to show deceit to protect themselves. The Buddha didn't have to encounter this too often because he was born into a religiously tolerant society. However, he did teach that people should break laws. Did you know that in Egypt it is the law that everyone born a Muslim must take and pass a test on Islam? Does that sound like a religiously tolerant society to you? You can sit in your ivory tower in tolerant Hong Kong and pass all kinds of judgements on the life choices of other people, but you need to really know about their lives when you make decisions and give advice. Sarah: I agree. As I said, no one can touch his inner beliefs and understanding. Does this mean he has to advertise it, knowing it will cause distress to family members, for example? Of course not. James: Sarah, he already wrote to you that he is a secret Buddhist- he doesn't advertise the fact. He would not, for example, put his picture in the members folder. Earlier you write not to be deceitful and now you are suggesting that he should be deceitful. Now I am confused about what you are saying. Sarah: Let's use another example: If you see a student is putting his/her life in danger, wouldn't you give a caution? Wouldn't that be common sense rather than fanaticism? In fact, wouldn't the 'putting his/her life in danger unnecessarily' be the fanatical route? James: I think you are over-reacting. He is not putting his life in danger to that extent. He doesn't advertise that he believes in Buddhism and he still goes to the Mosque on occassion with his family and prays and all that. Sarah: I apologise if I said anything inappropriate. Perhaps he'll respond to Phil's kind letter if that worked better. James: I don't think you said anything inappropriate, per se. Just expressed yourself. Amr told me that he doesn't want to post to you or Phil about this subject- he doesn't want to talk about himself that much. He originally wanted to post to defend me because he sees how I sometimes get bothered and upset by the posts. (And please don't write to me and tell me that I shouldn't do that- I already know that I shouldn't do that). When I read the post that bothered me, about Dan wanting to 'slam' me for my 'ridiculous' post, he got angry and wanted to defend me. My post was not ridiculous and Herman provided the research and support for what I wrote. I'm glad because I just didn't have the heart to research it myself. I get very discouraged by personal attacks and then even more discouraged when you tell me that I am supposed to take such attacks as compliments. This group is frequently Denial City. Metta, James 49586 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 10:54am Subject: Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Any comments that any writers make can only be based on the same sources I referred you to, I think. i.e the commentaries including B's own words and the Mahavamsa. James: You think??? If you make any factual statements you have to know or your statements aren't valid. Sarah: What do you mean by 'enlightened'? James: That he wasn't an arahant. Sarah: What exactly are you referring to in his writings? James: Somewhere he wrote the wish to become enlightened in the future, therefore he obviously wasn't enlightened. If you want me to provide the source, you will have to provide the sources which prove what you state above. Metta, James ps. I changed the subject head to simply 'Buddhaghosa'. 'Buddhaghosa again' seems sarcastic. 49587 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:02am Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > > "Herein those 'with skill in good', praised either in so far as > > they are > > > established in the virtue that provides non-remorse, or [in so far > > as] > > > they exert themselves in the 'way of suppression of defilement', > > [or in so > > > far as they attain] the paths and fruitions, are 'those with skill > > in > > > good' in this sense.' And those bhikkhus were of such kinds." > > > > > > The bhikkhus addressed were ripe for attaining the various jhanas > > and > > > becoming arahants too. > > > > James: Sarah, that is not what this commentary states. > .... > S: I was pointing out the fact, i.e that the commentary later indicates > that those bhikkhus addressed attained all jhanas and became arahants at > this time. James: What commentary indicates this? Not the one you quoted. Please quote that commentary and I can respond appropriately. > .... > > >Those who > > are 'skilled in good' includes those who are "established in virtue > > that provides non-remorse" OR those other types of ariyan > > disciples. In other words, this sutta is addressed to anyone who > > follows the five precepts. > ... > S: Usually 'established in virtue' refers to adhi-sila I believe, > established or fulfilled or perfected virtue, i.e the sotapanna. We may > follow the five precepts, but are not 'established in virute'. James: Again, you are using 'I believe' about something that is supposed to be factual. If it is factual you have to know 100% for sure that that is the case. From my reading of the suttas, the buddha taught sila and the five precepts for non-remorse, and I don't recall non-remorse being used to refer to sotapannas. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== Metta, James 49588 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:08am Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Correction: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: The Buddha didn't have to encounter this too > often because he was born into a religiously tolerant society. > However, he did teach that people should break laws. Should read: However, he did teach that people shouldn't break laws. Metta, James 49589 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:26am Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] philofillet Hi Sarah, James and all > I apologise if I said anything inappropriate. Perhaps he'll respond to > Phil's kind letter if that worked better. > I meant to add to that letter to amr that there was no need for him to reply. I just wanted to say hi. I certainly don't want to drag him into one of our debates. As for existing or not, I think there was a fringe branch (pugili something or other) in the Buddha's day that believed in beings, but there was no doubt in the mainstream. Of course, today moha is so deeply rooted that people laugh about what is a basic aspect of Dhamma. It's not a bad idea for amr to encounter the truth at this intellectual level as soon as possible. Oh, here's that passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary: "The puggalavada or personalist schools of Buddhism appealed to this passage as proof for the existence of the person (puggala) as a real entity..this tenet was flatly rejected by the other Buddhist schools, who saw in it a camouflaged verson of the atman, the self of the non-Buddhist systems. The *mainstream* Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pannati) derivative upon (upadaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right." People who first come across the Buddha's teaching for the first time immediately reject aspects that go against the ways of the world - the Buddha predicted that would be the case. Phil 49590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging without Attachment? nilovg Hi Mike, op 02-09-2005 00:10 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: I'm looking for a different meaning of 'attachment'. I'm > not finding it. I found this which disagrees with me I think: > > "In the Paa.li four kinds of clinging have been handed down, namely, > sense-desire clinging, wrong-view clinging, rites-and-rituals clinging and > self-theory clinging." > > Dispeller 844 > > Would all the above would necessarily arise with lobha-mula citta? Or might > the second, third and/or fourth arise with moha-muula citta but not lobha? ------ N: All with lobha-muulacitta, but there are eight types: four with ditthi, wrong view, and four without it. The last three arise with the lobha-mulacitta with wrong view, di.t.thigata sampayutta. Nina. 49591 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 49592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? nilovg Hi Christine: op 02-09-2005 10:53 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > This man claims to be an Arahant - could this be true? He seems to be > a medical practitioner in America. > > I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, upon becoming an arahant, > it is necessary to become a bhikkhu, and move into a monastery, or one > will die ... does anyone know where I might have read that? ------- N: ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2, explains clearly that a layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk must attain parinibbåna on that very day. The text states: ³Revered Någasena, you say: ŒThere are two bourns 2, not another, for a householder who has attained arahantship: either, that very day he goes forth (into homelessness) or he attains final nibbåna. That day is not able to pass (without one or other of these events taking place). If revered Någasena, he obtain neither a teacher nor a preceptor nor a bowl and robe on that day, could that arahant go forth of himself, or could he let the day pass? Or if some other arahant of psychic power arrived could he let him go forth? Or would he attain final nibbåna?² ³An arahant, sire, cannot go forth of oneself. On going forth of oneself one falls into theft 3. Nor could he let the day pass. Whether another arahant arrived or not, he would attain final nibbåna that very day.² *** Nina. 49593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: factfinding heartbase. nilovg Dear Tep, thank you for your good wishes, Nina. op 02-09-2005 03:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > May your project in India be a success, and > may you and yours travel safely. 49594 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 0:02pm Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) philofillet Hi Herman > >but what you said reminded me of my wife because when I have an > > outburst of anger she says "some Buddhist you are!" or something > > like that, but Buddhism is not about always being peaceful and calm, > > though that will probably happen more and more as our understanding > > deevelops. The most important thing is understanding ourselves, > > understanding the way we've accumulated ignorance, greed and hatred > > (called moha, lobha and dosa, the three unwholesome roots) for > > countless lifetimes. We will lose control at times to lust and > > anger, do foolish things - that doesn't make us any less Buddhist. > > I asked someone the other what qualifies a person as a Buddhist. > Seeing as you offer an opinion here, you might have an idea on that > question. I usually don't think of myself as a Buddhist. What I see of "Buddhism" in Japan today has made me wary of the organized aspect of Dhamma. Dhamma is dhamma is Dhamma. I do without the ism, so far at least. Thus, I don't think about the fasting days and so on. Perhaps I will someday, but not yet. The best way to show gratitude to the Buddha is by understanding his teaching. So, for me, Dhamma is about eradicating the unwholesome, cultivating the wholesome and purifying the mind, as it for so many people. Eradicating the unwholesome and cultivating the wholesome is NOT just a matter of not doing bad things and doing good things. If that is the way people practice, without understanding the conditions at work, there is no point. They will become less harmful people, perhaps, on the surface, but that is not the point of the Buddha's teaching. I love this sutta, AN 10:23. "Greed (lobha) can neither be abandoned by bodily acts nor by speech, but it can be abandoned by wisely seeing it." And the same is repeated for hatred (dosa) and delusions (moha) What could be more clear? We must know our defilements, not run away from them or attempt to cover them up with good deeds rooted in ignorance. > There is a sutta which I just cannot place at the moment where the > Buddha says that anyone who is angry or aversive, even while having > their arms cut off, has misunderstood the teachings. Anger and > understanding are mutually exclusive. I disagree. See above. I think the one you are quoting might be from Dhammapada. There is a lot of inspirational material in there. That's how I take it. And of course people with the unfathomable insight of the Buddha respond to being eaten by tigers and whatnot without anger. That is beyond worldlings. > > It seems to me that the understanding you talk about is a revision of > things that have already past. Is there benefit in understanding the > past? To me, that is not understanding, it is just story telling. Au contraire. The point is that it is just conditioned nama at work. The stories are in the kind of thing you quoted above. Stories about being a patient, virtuous person. But I see what you mean. I certainly don't mean to celebrate the anger. It arises and falls away, as shown in countless suttas. There is also regret, which is just worrying, and adds to the akusala. It seems to me that there is also a pang of regret that is wholesome. Perhaps it's related to hiri and ottapa, the twin factors of moral shame and fear of the consequences of wrongdoing, if I recall correctly. But Herman, you yourself said some days back, if I recall, that you think of a world without akusala or kusala? Without wholesome or unwholesome. What kind of Dhamma is that? Believing that there are no consequences to our deeds is the crudest of the three (?) kinds of wrong view laid out by the Buddha. > To even come near to what the present moment actually is requires > right concentration. Right understanding and right concentration are > mutually conditioning. Not linear, but circular. There is concentration with every citta, wholesome or unwholesome. But there are suttas which still have me thinking that a more protracted kind of concentration arises, can arise, accompanied by many other wholesome cetasikas. But it is not just sitting down and deciding to concetrate on something, as far as I can see at this point. I don't think much about what I can't understand yet. Doing so leads us off the path. > Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for both you and your wife that you are > beating her less :-) Never have, and never will, I say, but who knows? Nobody knows what they will or will not do. Phil 49595 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > Dear Htoo, > > As I read that sutta the Buddha said that he would expect 7 days for > > anyone who developed satipatthana correctly should be either arahant > > or anagami. He did start with seven years but then corrected that to > > seven days. > > I am wondering if you clam to one of those who has correctly > > developed saipatthana for seven days or more? > > Robertk > > Instead of presenting one significant sutta that contradicts DN 22, > you chose to cast doubts in Htoo's faith in the Buddha's word. > > Disappointment, utter disappointment! > > This is SO unlike your usual style. > >++++++++ Dear Swee Boon, how did I cast doubts on Htoo's faith in the Buddha's word? Robertk p.s I think this is my usual style. " I was mostly just expressing great disappointment in Robert K. resorting to straw man arguments and dogmatism as his support." and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49228 . ""But at least show some > courtesy and abstain from using pejorative terms and building silly straw > man arguments."" > 49596 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:00pm Subject: Re: Looking at feeling / The One-question Approach (Discussion_1) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you for accepting the one-question idea and for your suggestion that has turned it into a working solution. Now, let me comment on your answer to Question_1. In summary, you stated that there are 15 benefits (to the definition of the six feelings and the detail of the associated events); they are the insights that lead to the cessation of dukkha. With all due respect, I disagree with you. So, it is necessary that I ask another question ! Question 2 : Isn't that claiming too much, since you only give six feeling definitions along with a listing of the nine events? Definitions and listing or labelling are book knowledge at best. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > (snipped) > Tep: > > Question > ------------- > What benefits can one gain from knowing the six feelings and the > associated events in all detail? > > Htoo: > > Answer > ------------- > 1. knowledge of true naama (vedanaa) in real time > 2. knowledge of true naama (vedanaa) in real sense > 3. knowledge of true naama (vedanaa) in full depth > 4. seeing or realizing naama (vedana) as it is > 5. seeing or realizing naama (vedanaa) as it arises > 6. seeing or realizing naama (vedanaa) as it stays (persists) > 7. seeing or realizing naama (vedanaa) as it vanishes > 8. seeing the character that naama (vedanaa) bears like anicca > 9. seeing the character that naama (vedanaa) bears like dukkha > 10.seeing the character that naama (vedanaa) bears like anatta > 11.seeing the suffering as it is in depth (the naama_vedanaa) > 12.seeing the cause of suffering as it is in depth while eliminating > 13.seeing the cessation of suffering (the naama_vedanaa) as it is > 14.developing the Path leading to cessation of suffering > 15.seeing the conditional relationship of dhamma vedanaa and others and many more. > 49597 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:37pm Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) christine_fo... Hello Phil, Herman, all, Thanks for mentioning this sutta: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I love this sutta, AN 10:23. "Greed (lobha) can neither be > abandoned by bodily acts nor by speech, but it can be abandoned by > wisely seeing it." And the same is repeated for hatred (dosa) and > delusions (moha) What could be more clear? We must know our > defilements, not run away from them or attempt to cover them up with > good deeds rooted in ignorance. <<>> > > There is a sutta which I just cannot place at the moment where > > the Buddha says that anyone who is angry or aversive, even while > > having their arms cut off, has misunderstood the teachings. > > Anger and understanding are mutually exclusive. > > I disagree. See above. I think the one you are quoting might be > from Dhammapada. There is a lot of inspirational material in there. > That's how I take it. And of course people with the unfathomable > insight of the Buddha respond to being eaten by tigers and whatnot > without anger. That is beyond worldlings. > I think you are both alluding to MN 21, the Kakacuupama Sutta "The Simile of the Saw". This is simply a discourse on the need to maintain patience when addressed with disagreeable words. EXCERPT: "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all- encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to a catskin bag — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49598 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This man claims to be an Arahant ...?? christine_fo... Hello Htoo, Howard, Nina, all, Thank you for the clarifying information in your posts - very helpful. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Christine: > op 02-09-2005 10:53 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: > > > > This man claims to be an Arahant - could this be true? He seems to be > > a medical practitioner in America. > > > > I vaguely remember reading somewhere that, upon becoming an arahant, > > it is necessary to become a bhikkhu, and move into a monastery, or one > > will die ... does anyone know where I might have read that? > ------- > N: ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2, explains clearly that a > layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk must attain > parinibbåna on that very day. The text states: > > ³Revered Någasena, you say: ŒThere are two bourns 2, not another, for a > householder who has attained arahantship: either, that very day he goes > forth (into homelessness) or he attains final nibbåna. That day is not able > to pass (without one or other of these events taking place). If revered > Någasena, he obtain neither a teacher nor a preceptor nor a bowl and robe on > that day, could that arahant go forth of himself, or could he let the day > pass? Or if some other arahant of psychic power arrived could he let him go > forth? Or would he attain final nibbåna?² > ³An arahant, sire, cannot go forth of oneself. On going forth of oneself one > falls into theft 3. Nor could he let the day pass. Whether another arahant > arrived or not, he would attain final nibbåna that very day.² > *** > Nina. 49599 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:41pm Subject: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Sarah, >... Hallo James, Sarah, all James: That sutta [Anattalakkhana Sutta? (Discourse on Not-self')] was addressed to monastics who had practiced renunciation and mental cultivation. Lay folk, like you, me and Amr, cannot possibly have a real understanding of non-self because our lifestyle doesn't foster such an understanding. The Buddha refused to teach non-self (anatta) to lay people due to the confusion it would create. Joop: Are you serious, my Sutta-knowledge is not so big but I cannot imagine the Buddha refused this. Is in this way the difference between living in a monastery and living elsewere in society not exaggerated? That difference is not absolute, but relative (gradual) Monastics is a cultural invention, so the difference is not ultimate reality! More general: is "real understanding of non-self" really so extremely difficult that nowadays (nearly) nobody can realize it? I'm more optimistic than that. Or more specific and repeating myself: anatta is especially difficult for those who are fighting their strong ego; anicca is especially difficult for those who have a strong ontological need (like me). Metta Joop