49800 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 6:47am Subject: Re: Accumulation htootintnaing Dear Ken H, Thanks for your reply. Sorry I almost always confuse with Ken O. Are there any differentiating points? With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Dear Htoo, You wrote: --------------------------- > Dear Dhamma Friends, > When there are enough dhamma to understand and to comply with why > bother life after life accumulations? > ---------------------------- Ken H: It is part of the Dhamma. Do you want us to ignore it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not saying like that. But why bother unseeable accumulation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > Why do people want dhamma to be very difficult? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Strange question! I don't recall anyone saying they wanted the Dhamma to be very difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This already implied. A hair is split in to 1000 times etc etc.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H But, irrespective of what anyone might want or not want, the Dhamma *is* very difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. If easy Bodhisattas would not search for 20 asancheyyas and 100,000 kappas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Some people - including some DSG members - believe the Dhamma is a religion, and they believe that by joining this religion they automatically become Sotapanna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Buddho! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Some people - including *many* DSG members - believe Satipatthana is a ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: They believe when we are walking we should concentrate; "Foot goes up, foot goes forward, foot goes down. Foot goes up, foot goes forward, foot goes down." They believe this simplistic nonsense is Dhamma. Some actively teach it as Dhamma! The kindest thing we can do is to explain, "The true Dhamma is very, very difficult." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >H: > I do not say dhamma is very easy or dhamma is easy and any hints like that. But one should not discourage those people who have a good faith in dhamma that dhamma is very very difficult and you all will not attain anything in this life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: If people are trivialising the Dhamma we should discourage them from doing so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Up to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > Accumulation? Right now there are many accumulations. Dhamma > Threads have accumulated up to 525 messages. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Yes, the word accumulation means different things in different contexts. So what is your point? Are you saying we should not learn the meaning of accumulations as taught by the Buddha? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma has to be learned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > Why discourage people with accumulation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: The true Dhamma is not discouraging: anyone who is discouraged by 'accumulations' has misunderstood. In that case, should they be set straight or should they be given some encouraging false Dhamma instead? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some say many many lives are required to accumulate. When we all never can see any accumulation, why bother that accumulation? This does not mean we do not need to study what accumulation means in the context of The Buddha's teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > If you learn this 'this is one accumulation'. If you learn > that 'this is also another accumulation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Are you saying conditions for right view accumulate, and conditions for wrong view accumulate? Or are you making some other point? Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I am saying is_ Right now there is light. It is a ruupa. It does not last long. It passes away. Right now there is a sound. It is a ruupa. It does not last long. It passes away. Right now there starts to accumulate. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49801 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 6:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 529 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) Altogether there are 37 factors that are companions of Bodhi naana or 'knowledge of great-knowing'. 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriya-s) Indriya means 'belonging to the ruler' 'governing principle' 'ruling principle' 'controlling principle' 'determining principle' 'directive force'. Even though there are 22 indriyas, there are only 5 Bodhipakkhiya indriyas. They are 1. saddhindiya or 'faculty of faith' 2. viiriyindriya or faculty of effort' 3. satindriya or 'faculty of mindfulness' 4. samaadhindriya or 'faculty of concentration' 5. pannindriya or 'faculty of wisdom' When there arise the faculty of faith, this faith have the power of 'controlling principle'. That is it does it job and no other dhamma can interefere with its function because it has governing power or principle. But this is not just a simple faith. It is the companion of enlightenment and it is a factor in 37 companions of enlightenment. So the faith is so powerful that it behaves in its highest power as a govering factor. Viiriyindriya is also a govering principle. It does its job and no other dhamma can intervene his job as it is own governer in its own field. Viiriya or effort here is not like other effort. Because it becomes a factor in 37 companions of enlightenment. Effort works to its maximum. Satindriya is also a determining principle. Sati or mindfulness does arise in each and every sobhana citta or 'beautiful consciousness'. But unlike sati in other cittas or consciousness the sati that becomes satindriya is much much more powerful as it is working to its maximal capacity. Likewise samaadhindriya is also controlling principle. This concentration has its own full-power in governing its own field of concentration or fixation at an object so that mind becomes concentrated. No other dhamma can do the job of samaadhi except ekaggataa who is the dhamma in samaadhindriya. Among these 5 indriya, pannindriya is the most powerful. When anagams attain anagami magga while pannindriya is the best indriya even though they all have to work in equal strength these anaagams have the ticket to be reborn in akanittha rupa brahma bhuumi, which is the highest ruupa brahma realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49802 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: beggars, social life and paramatthas. jonoabb Hi Phil Philip wrote: > I said that "when interest in Dhamma arises, I lose interest in >people." ... I said "when interst in Dhamma >arises", trying to capture something, but that didn't quite do it. >How should I say? When understanding arises? There is this over- >fondness for "panna" perhaps, this notion of penetrating to ultimate >realities when I am nowhere near doing so. And yet, yes, there is a >falling away of interest in people when understanding (as shallow as >it is) arises with respect to paramattha dhammas. That doesn't mean >that there will be indifference or coldness to people when they are >there in my life. But yes, interest falls away, certainly, when >there is understanding of paramattha dhammas. Isn't that an aspect >of detachment? How can we remain interested in people and develop >detachment in the same moment? No need to answer that. Just thinking >out loud. > > I think I konw what you mean. The interest in people that falls away is the akusala kind of interest (this can take many forms). When there is more interest in dhamma, one can become less absorbed in other sensual objects, without trying. It is not noticed at first, but after a time the change becomes apparent. I suppose the exact object(s) will vary from individual to individual. And with the lessening of the unwholesome interest in others, there may be more wholesomeness in our thoughts of, or speech or action towards, others. Of course, it may not last! There has not been the eradicatoin of the underlying tendency. So it is not something to be clung to ;-)) (but you know this). Jon 49803 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 6:45am Subject: an introduction and a question bardosein Hello everyone, I joined this forum sometime ago, but did not follow it for very long, nor did I participate. I have been practising the Burmese Satipatthana method for over the past seven years after being first introduced to the method by very kind senior Thai monk in Northeastern Thailand. Since then I've continued intensive practise under the guidance of Burmese Sayadaws as well as doing several solitary retreats in Issan. I've made very slow progress and it is only in the past few years that my interest in Abhidhamma has grown. A few years ago, I tried reading Ven. Nyanaponika's _Abhidhamma Studies_. I found it fascinating but most of it remained well beyond my understanding. Now however, with continued practice, the Abhidhamma's schemata is just beginning (stress on beginning) to make practical sense. Now for my first question: Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. Doesn't Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar monk? I'm not interested in evaluating Buddhagosa's attainments. However, it is hard to believe that anyone who still retained Brahmanistic beliefs would be able to offer such insightful comments, particularly in the third section of his commentary. This leads me to suspect Buddhadasa's rather bold critique of Bugghagosa as well as Buddhadasa's interpretation of dependent origination. I would be much obliged if someone could direct me to a helpful response/critique of his comments about this all important concept. Hal 49804 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 7:44am Subject: Anatta and non-monastics (was: Beginning Buddhists [was: Re: Metta Examples jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Thanks for replying. Your response is very interesting because it > is non-confrontational; I will try to keep the same tone. .... Hallo James and Azita I had a bit difficulties with replying, because I had a lack of opinions. About monastics I don't have an opinion at all on this moment. So a short reaction about some others points. James: "As for you, I don't know if you are referring to the ultimate or the conventional level when you write "anicca is more important than anatta and experiencing the truth of anicca is more difficult than that of anatta" so I can't directly address this issue." Joop: I don't know what I meant at the moment I wrote this, I think this are terms only usable at the conventional level. Azita: "You say that anicca is more important to you than anatta, Joop. Do you think that due to our immensely varying accummulations, one being could understand more of one of these aspects than another being?" Joop: exactly, and I think these accumulations can be the product of ones youth of of ones earlier life. But that's only a matter of degree, of course everybody has 'problems' with both anicca, anatta and dukkha (that is: don't has intuitively the right vision) Azita: "BTW did you know your name is the same as one of the popular perfumes sold here in Australia :-)" Joop: I knew I have a vague identity, but now I know: I am a perfume. Thanks and metta Joop 49805 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Origin, Ceasing, Satisfaction, Danger & Escape ... jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ven Samahita & Joop, >... Hallo Sarah, Nice to hear from you again. And nice you mentioned Ve. Samahita and me together in one message; because he and me did not finish out discussions as friends, so say it politely. I tried to express the fact that a human being is a social being not only at the conventional level but also at the ultimate level; and than I don't like it when I get sermons. The terminal quote: " Ven. S: Thus: never have there ever been, nor is there now, nor will there ever be any other than selfless 'THINGS' = 'Dhammaa' = 'States' in existence anywhere at all!" Joop: Don't agree. The Buddha had meant this soteriologically, to liberate the person who listens or reads Him. Everybody should apply this to himself, not to his neighbour. And apllied to the Buddha Himself: trying to liberate a sentient being is not treating that being as a thing. Ven. S: "Clinging is also clinging obstinately to 'my own views' as better! Quite painful is that. And obstructing any progress too." You asked about our Abhidhamma activities in Holland. There is a group, from visitors of the (Thai)Buddhavihara in Amsterdam and vipassana-meditators from different cities (you know: sitting on a cushion, Mahasi-method) who had a retreat this summer with the Burmese monk U Nandamala. The next month we have regular evening meetings in which we studie chapters of the Sangaha and of Nina's "Abhidhamma in daily life" We are very lucky that Nina has (25 years ago) translated a big part of her book in dutch and send me all her dutch papers so that I can distribute them now! A friend of me is translating the Abhidhammata Sangaha in dutch: a great job that will take some months. Metta Joop 49806 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: an introduction and a question htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I joined this forum sometime ago, but did not follow it for very > long, nor did I participate. I have been practising the Burmese > Satipatthana method for over the past seven years after being first > introduced to the method by very kind senior Thai monk in > Northeastern Thailand. Since then I've continued intensive practise > under the guidance of Burmese Sayadaws as well as doing several > solitary retreats in Issan. I've made very slow progress and it is > only in the past few years that my interest in Abhidhamma has grown. > A few years ago, I tried reading Ven. Nyanaponika's _Abhidhamma > Studies_. I found it fascinating but most of it remained well beyond > my understanding. Now however, with continued practice, the > Abhidhamma's schemata is just beginning (stress on beginning) to make > practical sense. > > Now for my first question: > > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. Doesn't > Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained > his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has > not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar > monk? I'm not interested in evaluating Buddhagosa's attainments. > However, it is hard to believe that anyone who still retained > Brahmanistic beliefs would be able to offer such insightful comments, > particularly in the third section of his commentary. This leads me > to suspect Buddhadasa's rather bold critique of Bugghagosa as well as > Buddhadasa's interpretation of dependent origination. I would be > much obliged if someone could direct me to a helpful > response/critique of his comments about this all important concept. > > Hal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hal, Buddhaghosa was a scholar. My poinion is that he was just a puthujana. By the way, Buddhaghosa is the word made up of 'Buddha' and 'ghosa'. Ghosa means 'voice'. He truely represent what The Buddha preached. When he wrote visuddhimagga as soon as he finished the whole text disappeared. So he had to re-write it again. Again when finished, that new text disappeared and lost. For the third time he -re-write it again. All 3 texts were exactly the same. Htoo Naing 49807 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi RobertK, > Panna is accumulated by listening and considering and applying the > Dhamma: All of these actions (listening etc)are merit (punna). If > you don't reject it why do you doubt panna is accumulated. I really don't know how you came to this conclusion. In MN 117, the Buddha said that Right View, Right Resolve, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood are of two sorts: (1) those with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming] (2) those without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html The Buddha clearly implied that the second type (which is capable of issuing in lokuttara panna) does not side with merit at all. I am really at a loss for words! > Talking about Theri sundari nanda that at > the time of the Buddha Padumuttara "she heard the doctrine > preached...she accumulated merit for one hundred thousand aeons > (one aeon is billions of years or more) journeying on among > devas and men." Finally she attained under this Buddha. Wow, this theri journeyed for one hundred thousand aeons amongst DEVAS AND MEN! This must be the exception amongst all exceptions. Not even the Buddha could claim that. Do you believe you will be like her? Or do you fantasize about that? > Ther factors of enlightenement all depend to some degree on > conditions that arise now, however they are also conditioned > partly by conditions from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is > to some extent a matter of vipaka conditioned by kamma a past > factor. Agreed. You need to be a human with sane faculties and a working ear to hear deep Dhamma. All these are conditioned by past kamma. There is no doubt about this. > How fast and how deep one understands what one hears is > largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata (merit done in the past). Disagree. > If one has studied Dhamma for some time there should be growing > appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to more > understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear > more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions > arising in the present, but built on past ones. > Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person > go so fast, so far and another doesn't. That's why! For all you know, you could be the next Venerable Sunnakhata! You could be an ascetic just like Venerable Sunnakhata one thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand aeons ago. Who knows? Afterall, you can't control what you did in the past, how can you control what you will be doing in the future? Well, you can't even control what you are doing in this life anyway. Regards, Swee Boon 49808 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 nidive Hi Htoo, > If this is not the way one is following the Path then let alone 7 > years, 7 billions asancheyyas will not be enough. I am not following > any accumulation, which cannot see in actual term. Only The Buddha > will be able to see this. Why bother for this. Even Sariputta could > not see accumulation like The Buddha did. That was why he gave > asubha kammatthaana to his disciple to practise and there was no > progress. But when The Buddha changed the kammatthaana then that > disciple of Sariputta became an arahat with the aid of the > kammatthaana given by The Buddha. > This is accumulation matter. Not concerned with us. Why bother? > What I am talking and what Swee Boon is talking is 7 years to 7 > days. Again this is not just to count the time span. What should > be focus in real term is what is satipatthaana. But you are all > the time talking 'programmed practice' 'formal practice' etc etc. Well said, Htoo! Why bother about accumulations that can't be seen, can't be heard, can't be smelled, can't be tasted, can't be touched and can't be known except by the Buddha? By the way, I wonder if Khun Sujin has developed an "accumulations-o- meter"! > I WILL REPEAT that if one cannot be enlightened within 7 years then > there is something wrong in his practice. That is he or she is not > following rightly. Good! Regards, Swee Boon 49809 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 9:31am Subject: Tep's Qus for A.Sujin (was:Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.) philofillet Hi Sarah > oops, Phil, the English love apologies, sorry about that:)). There was > a funny English 'candid camera' program I once saw in which an actor > deliberately bumped into shoppers, stood on their feet, knocked their > shopping and worse. Nearly all the poor shoppers apologised profusely > for the trouble they caused him! I'm sure Naomi and your Japanese > friends understand this too:). I think it can be just a sign of > friendliness or goodwill or just good manners? I'm a Canadian (great apologizers) who's turning Japanese, so I am always engaged in those odd apologies. Tonight I apologized to a man on the street handing out brochures of some kind, apologized for not taking one. He apologized for having offered it. This sort of thing, all day long. No real goodwill behind it most of the time, though there is friendliness, (ie metta) at times. The Buddha, somewhere or other, said that people should get along the way milk and water do, easily harmonizing. But is there *truly* harmonizing when it is on the surface and the cittas behind it are rooted in akusala? So many things we used to assume were wholesome, such as laughter and regret and perhaps apologizing are rooted in akusala - albeit relatively harmless akusala - when you think about it. Just a theoretical point I find interesting. Needless to say it has no effect on the my daily life. I will do what I have always done. Sorry this, sorry that, sumimasen, gomen nasai. A lot of laughing. I'll do what I've accumulated the tendency to do. Phil 49810 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 9:47am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > > If this is not the way one is following the Path then let alone 7 > > years, 7 billions asancheyyas will not be enough. I am not following > > any accumulation, which cannot see in actual term. Only The Buddha > > will be able to see this. Why bother for this. Even Sariputta could > > not see accumulation like The Buddha did. That was why he gave > > asubha kammatthaana to his disciple to practise and there was no > > progress. But when The Buddha changed the kammatthaana then that > > disciple of Sariputta became an arahat with the aid of the > > kammatthaana given by The Buddha. > > This is accumulation matter. Not concerned with us. Why bother? > > What I am talking and what Swee Boon is talking is 7 years to 7 > > days. Again this is not just to count the time span. What should > > be focus in real term is what is satipatthaana. But you are all > > the time talking 'programmed practice' 'formal practice' etc etc. > > Well said, Htoo! > > Why bother about accumulations that can't be seen, can't be heard, > can't be smelled, can't be tasted, can't be touched and can't be known > except by the Buddha? > > By the way, I wonder if Khun Sujin has developed an "accumulations- o- > meter"! > > > I WILL REPEAT that if one cannot be enlightened within 7 years then > > there is something wrong in his practice. That is he or she is not > > following rightly. > > Good! > > Regards, > Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, I do not know whether there is an 'accumulatiometer'? :-)) With respect, Htoo Naing 49811 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 9:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 530 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) Altogether there are 37 factors that are companions of Bodhi naana or 'knowledge of great-knowing'. 4. the stock of strength/power ( 5 bala-s) Bala means 'strong' or 'strength'. It is power. It is like the leader in the battles. Bala-s are not afraid of any opposing enemies. When balas are there all their opposers can be overcome with the power of these bala-s. Dhamma-wise there are 5 bala-s and they do have almost the same name as indriya dhammas. They are 1. saddha bala or 'power of faith' 2. viiriya bala or 'power of effort' 3. sati bala or 'power of mindfulness' 4. samaadhi bala or 'power of concentration' 5. pannaa bala or 'power of wisdom' When there exists the power of faith, this faith will lead the whole team of mental factors as a leader of a troop. When faith is there, the opposing dhamma like vicikicchaa or doubt goes away. But this is not just a simple faith. It is the companion of enlightenment and it is a factor in 37 companions of enlightenment. So the faith is so powerful that it can crack down all his opposition. Viiriya bala is also a leader of the troop of mind. It does its job and leads the whole team. Viiriya or effort here is not like other effort. Because it becomes a factor in 37 companions of enlightenment. Effort works to its maximum. Sati bala is also like other bala it is a leader and has high power to overcome the opposing dhamma. Sati or mindfulness does arise in each and every sobhana citta or 'beautiful consciousness'. But unlike sati in other cittas or consciousness the sati that becomes sati bala is much much more powerful as it is working to its maximal capacity. Likewise samaadhi bala is also a leader in the field. This concentration has its own full-power in governing its own field of concentration or fixation at an object so that mind becomes concentrated. No other dhamma can do the job of samaadhi except ekaggataa who is the dhamma in samaadhi bala. Among these 5 balas, pannaa bala is the most powerful. When anagams attain anagami magga while pannaa is the best even though they all have to work in equal strength these anaagams have the ticket to be reborn in akanittha rupa brahma bhuumi, which is the highest ruupa brahma realm. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nilovg Hi Sarah, Visuddhimagga XIV, 214 deals with the upadana khandhas: subject to cankers and liable to clinging. I will study the Tiika too when we come to it. I always find this subject difficult. I remember that there were some posts about this subject. Nina. op 07-09-2005 11:46 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > a)Upadana khandha - only upadana when it is clung to, because it arises > and falls away. It can't be upadana khandha when no one clings to it, eg > heart-base now or eye-base whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. 49813 From: nina Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:17am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, 1. nilovg Dear friends, This evening I started reading to Lodewijk Dhamma conversations in Cambodia, held December 2000. I translated these from Thai and posted them here before. ***** Nina. 49814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] about apologies. nilovg Hi Sarah and Phil, Phil, you once said that Canadians always like apologies. Phil has a point. It depends on the citta. The motives can be so different. What do we know about others? Again: paramatthas are most helpful for our social life. Politeness and good manners from the heart. Nina. op 07-09-2005 12:08 schreef sarahprocterabbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > oops, Phil, the English love apologies, sorry about that:)). .... I think it can be just a sign of > friendliness or goodwill or just good manners? 49815 From: "frank" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] dhamma soup for happiness redux dhamma_service Hi Mike, Apologies accepted. As Phil pointed out, any word even spoken by the Buddha such as "revulsion"/nibindati, can be misconstrued and misunderstood if looked at without considering a wider context. In the case of "stillness", looking at the context, considering it was translated from thai, considering it was in a verse uttered by someone of such enormous stature who was a master of meditation and the sutta pitaka, and over several decades where close disciples reported seeing only peaceful joyful demeanor with no clue of lust, hatred, ignorance, I would tend to give Luang Pu the benefit of the doubt on his meaning behind "stillness". I assume that coming from an arahant or at worst a non-returner, by stillness in that context he means either the cessation of perception and feeling meditative attainment, and/or the "stillness" of a liberated one who abides in emptiness, abides in the equanimity based on right view, abides in the supreme development of the faculties such that when pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral sensory experience arises they are "stilled" in the sense of the coolness arising from the total and utter annihilation of the underlying tendencies and defilements. When the fire of passion, fire of hatred, fire of delusion is quenched, the coolness and "stillness" arising is based on wisdom, not an idiotic and damage control act of suppression. When pleasant experience arises, they are "stilled" by virtue of the experiencer being unmoved, knowing the underlying nature of pleasantness. With unpleasant experience, the experiencer is unperturbed, knowing full well the transient nature of the 5 aggregates. With neutral experience, behind the apparent stillness is an equanimity based on knowing the cause, the gratification, the danger, and the escape from neutral feeling. -fk 49816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an introduction and a question nilovg Hello Hal, There is no need to think of what others say about Buddhaghosa, best to study him yourself. Then you can see for yourself. Larry is the project leader of the Visuddhimagga. Just now we are still on Ch XIV, the khandhas. In a few months Larry wants to begin with Ch XVII, the second part, because we reckon about two years finishing this part. It is about Dependent Origination and I add summaries of the Tiika. I do now for Ch XIV. So, then you have an opportunity to see for yourself what Buddhaghosa wrote. Nina. op 07-09-2005 15:45 schreef Hal op bardosein@...: > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. 49817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the greatest wealth nilovg Hi Swee Boon, I wrote this before in my Visuddhimagga studies: As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor is one¹s age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present.> You quoted a wheel sutta, but the deep meaning should not escape us. It shows us the result of kusala kamma and also it deals also with the greatest wealth, which is spiritual: wisdom. Nina. op 07-09-2005 14:58 schreef nidive op nidive@...: > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an-04-031-tb0. > html > > "There are these four wheels, endowed with which human beings & devas > develop a four-wheeled prosperity; endowed with which human beings & > devas in no long time achieve greatness & abundance in terms of > wealth > & happiness." > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is talking about mundane happiness, not supramundane happiness. 49818 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 9:02am Subject: Re: an introduction and a question bardosein --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > > > I joined this forum sometime ago, but did not follow it for very > > long, nor did I participate. I have been practising the Burmese > > Satipatthana method for over the past seven years after being first > > introduced to the method by very kind senior Thai monk in > > Northeastern Thailand. Since then I've continued intensive > practise > > under the guidance of Burmese Sayadaws as well as doing several > > solitary retreats in Issan. I've made very slow progress and it is > > only in the past few years that my interest in Abhidhamma has > grown. > > A few years ago, I tried reading Ven. Nyanaponika's _Abhidhamma > > Studies_. I found it fascinating but most of it remained well > beyond > > my understanding. Now however, with continued practice, the > > Abhidhamma's schemata is just beginning (stress on beginning) to > make > > practical sense. > > > > Now for my first question: > > > > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. > Doesn't > > Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained > > his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has > > not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar > > monk? I'm not interested in evaluating Buddhagosa's attainments. > > However, it is hard to believe that anyone who still retained > > Brahmanistic beliefs would be able to offer such insightful > comments, > > particularly in the third section of his commentary. This leads me > > to suspect Buddhadasa's rather bold critique of Bugghagosa as well > as > > Buddhadasa's interpretation of dependent origination. I would be > > much obliged if someone could direct me to a helpful > > response/critique of his comments about this all important concept. > > > > Hal > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Dear Hal, > > Buddhaghosa was a scholar. My poinion is that he was just a puthujana. > By the way, Buddhaghosa is the word made up of 'Buddha' and 'ghosa'. > Ghosa means 'voice'. > > He truely represent what The Buddha preached. When he wrote > visuddhimagga as soon as he finished the whole text disappeared. So > he had to re-write it again. Again when finished, that new text > disappeared and lost. For the third time he -re-write it again. All 3 > texts were exactly the same. > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo Naing, Thanks for your reply. As I said, I'm not very interested in discussing Buddhagosa or speculating about his attainments or lack there of. Having said that, your comments leave me puzzled. On the one hand you say he is a mere "puthujjana" and on the other hand you say "he truly represent(s) what The Buddha preached". How is this possible? I don't see how it is possible for anyone who is a mere worldling to avoid _misrepresnting_what the Buddha preached. If Buddhagosa's had not attainded a higher understanding and had only a scholastic knowledge of the Buddha's teaching, the third section of his commentary would be riddled with the taint of wrong view. He could not have represented the supreme understanding that the Buddha preached. Hal 49819 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 1:02pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > --> Forced? colette: Indeed! I was forced as I am forced in today's society in Chicago. There is inclusion and exclusion of all aspects in this life and as stated in the Bill Of Rights, maybe it's the Constitution, every citizen is entitled to "...Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" therefore in a society ruled by the paranoid of the Republican party, and applied under the rules of Role Reversal (R.R./G.B) we can find that Life is their term for Death, Liberty is equal to Slavery, pursuit of happiness, well lets just say that we can easily discover the meaning here in the Role Reversal of a certain institution. That said I am not permitted the right to gainful employment therefore if I am to exist and try to live a life then I've gotta try to work, gain employment, however, in attempting to do something that this institution and those institutionalized have freely chose to discriminate from me I would be breaking their Law, their Communist society. And so, since I refuse to adopt the Party Line and attempt to circumvent the Politburo then I must be forced into the horrendous jobs that no sane individual would seek to gain. Indeed, "Forced" they twist my arm, coercion. --------------------------- > > Collette: "Nevertheless, this person that could not read or write was > more than contented with the life he was experiencing at the time and > no matter how much I rationalized the absolute horror of this > position with him I did not have the ability to raise any emotion in > him for his plight." > > --> You wanted to convince a contented man to feel horrible? That > seems a bit odd, don't you think? I'm glad for him that you didn't > succeed in teaching him to generate and cling to dosa. colette: How true! What could I possibly say? At the time, in my ignorance I was trying to divert his attention to "striving for a goal", achieving something, We can see now how childish this was. Now let me say something that was not initiated. I had planned on placing this elsewhere on the net since it is from my path to nibbanna. I did enjoy your response to me and simple questions which were mindless in answering because of my constant introspection and self-analysis. In my course of studying the esoteric I began studying the Kabballah and like Rabi Isaac Luria (the Holy Ari), when Illumination hits me during my meditations it is like a consuming ocean where I can only see answers to what I thought were my questions, plus I see answers to things I have never considered. It's a torrent of knowledge. The past few days, since I raised to consciousness, my past from 1982 in New Orleans, Gulfport MS, and Biloxi MS, I have been considering the absolute shambles my life is in and how sick it actually is. This is in relation to the lives of others. That is a very big point to realize. Oh, and for those that have the concern for the danger I place myself in during these "consciousness raising" types of meditationals I can assure you that when I started atttempting to raise consciousness in March 2004 I consulted the Psychiatry dept. of Oxford University to point out signs of "false memory syndrone" etc. Here are the notes I wrote this morning Behavioral Characteristic --French Quarter --French Fries "Back sliding" (Talking Heads) of the South Carolina Congressman that now criticizes the war in Iraq but was 1000% in favor of the war and to chastise the French for their disapproval of what G.W. and Skull & Bones society did/does thus changing the name of French Fries to something other. --France giving no support to the American war in Iraq. this note was added to the end paper of the Mijjhima Nikaya 63 sutta (Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya) I was reading over again before I started walking. Seperate page. Buddhist Life/Belief Structure --Stress is the focus of that which is "Declared" by the Buddha --Stress is a factor common to all sentient life --Stress causes chemical changes within the body --The chemical changes cause hallucinations, dissociation, etc, which lead to the elivation, exaltation, and worship, of Ignorance. -- Because of a person's social status and idolotry they fail to recognize ignorance as what it is; ignorance becomes a welcomed friend and "Savior" (see Cortez and the use of horses toward, in concert with, the genocide of the South & Central American indigenous people's) Black Arts --Accupuncture = Martial Arts Jhivarro Tribe of S.America --Head hunts in fear of what their dead relatives might do to them. --Apply this thought w/ ignorance and or Miss Interpretation or Re- Interpretation. --Christians can see it in terms of -VENGENCE -Eye for an Eye -Tit for Tat -or the personal gratification of those living AND in authority, positions of power i.e. the dead relatives of a proletarian or farmer would have less meaning and urgency as would the dead relatives of an aristorat (Boca Raton = Mouth of the rat) Apply Social More Japan - Saving Face that's all for now. toodles, colette 49820 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma soup for happiness redux buddhistmedi... Hi, Frank and Mike - Thank you, Frank, for your perfect explanation of Luangpu's use of "stillness" in the sense of freedom from all defilements. Frank: > I assume that coming from an arahant or at worst a non-returner, by > stillness in that context he means either the cessation of perception and feeling meditative attainment, and/or the "stillness" of a liberated one who abides in emptiness, abides in the equanimity based on right view, abides in the supreme development of the faculties such that when pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral sensory experience arises they are "stilled" in the sense of the coolness arising from the total and utter >annihilation of the underlying tendencies and defilements. Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: > Hi Mike, > Apologies accepted. As Phil pointed out, any word even spoken by the Buddha such as "revulsion"/nibindati, can be misconstrued and misunderstood if looked at without considering a wider context. 49821 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDD... TGrand458@... Send Email In a message dated 09/05/2005 1:40:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Tep, what do YOU mean here by 'whole body' and can you give me a sutta reference to support this idea of 'the whole body' being the seat? Do you mean the 'seat' of all kinds of consciousness or which? Hi Sarah, All This may repeat other replies but... I would consider the often stated in Suttas -- "Name and Form is the cause of consciousness, consciousness is the cause of Name and Form" -- to be good evidence in support of the idea that the "whole body" is the seat of consciousness. (I am taking "whole body" the mean the "whole human system": ie, name and form.) As far the "heart base," I don't see any justification for that concept that stands up to reasonable scrutiny, without having to extrapolate it to mean something well beyond "heart base." TG 49822 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee and Mike - Essentially, you both do not believe that Prince Saddartha in the autobiography told by the Buddha in MN 36 (Mahasaccaka Sutta) was already "at least a Sotapanna". DSG # 49746: > Tep: Remember that during that time (according to MN 36) nobody else knew the path to Awakening, even his former "old jhana" teachers, because the old jhanas don't support the path to Awakening. So Prince Siddartha must be an ariya (at least Sotapanna) already. Swee: I am sorry, Tep, but I don't share your view that Prince Siddartha was already an ariyan before he became the Buddha. What the young Prince Siddartha discovered was not Noble Right Concentration, because the other 7 Noble Factors were missing. Tep: How do you know that he did not know the other seven Noble Path factors? Besides, does Sotapanna require the attainment of Noble Right Concentration (defined by the four rupa-jhanas)? By the way, according to your quoted MN 36, is there any difference between the 1st jhana acquired by Prince Siddartha and the 1st jhana of the samma-samadhi? Go back to review DN 22 and compare the wordings. DSG # 49717: > Tep: Right, if concentration is not supported by the seven Noble path > factors, then it is not called samma-samathi. Samma-samadhi is > defined by the four new rupa-jhanas that were discovered by Prince > Siddartha who was already an ariya. Mike: I'd be interested in texts supporting this--the idea that Gotama was already ariyan. Very interesting! Looking forward to it. Tep: Dear Mike and Swee, let me summarize the key points I found in MN 36 at www.vipassana.info for you as given below. These keypoints should be sufficient to convince you (tough guys) that Prince Siddartha was indeed an ariya puggala (ariyan) above the level of his two former teachers. You may want to check the accuracy of my summary by reading the whole sutta yourself at the following Web address. http://www.vipassana.info/036-mahasaccaka-sutta-e1.htm Tep: Prince Siddartha learned both (old) rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana from Uddaka Raamaputta as is evidence by the folowing quote: "This Teaching does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied I turned away from it". The Prince rejected the kind of jhanas that did not lead to enlightenment. He left his last teacher "in search of the incomparable peaceful state wandering in stages came to the village of Senaani in Uruwela", and settled down there to meditate. Later on he discovered three meanings of renunciation(nekkhamma) nobody had taught him as follows. 1) "... when recluses or brahmins, abide not even bodily secluded from sensuality the sensual interest, sensual need, sensual stupor, sensual thirst, sensual burning not well turned out internally. They experience sharp rough unpleasant feelings and it is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment...Even if these good recluses and brahmins do not feel sharp rough unpleasant feelings it is not possible that they should realise knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment. This is the first comparison that came to me not heard before." 2) "... recluses and brahmins that abide not even bodily secluded from sensuality that sensual interest, sensual need, sensual stupor, sensual thirst, sensual burning not well turned out internally, experience sharp rough unpleasant feelings. It is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment. Even if these good recluses and brahmins do not feel sharp rough unpleasant feelings, it is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment This is the second comparison that came to me not heard before." 3) "... recluses and brahmins that abide bodily secluded from sensuality that sensual interest, sensual need, sensual stupor, sensual thirst, sensual burning well turned out internally, experience sharp rough unpleasant feelings. Yet it is possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment..Even if these good recluses and brahmins do not feel sharp rough unpleasant feelings it is possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment. This is the third comparison that came to me not heard before." These three discoveries directed the Prince to the entirely different practice of jhana that nobody had discovered before. Next, he experimented with pains ("sharp, rough unpleasant feelings") in several ways, even stopped eating for several days. Then he realized, "Doing these difficult exertions, I will not attain, any noble distinctive knowledge and vision above human. There should be some other method for the realization of enlightenment." Then he recalled "the experience under the shade of the rose apple tree near my father's field: Secluded from sensual thoughts and secluded from thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, how I attained to the first jhaana. Then consciousness arose is this the path to enlightenment." Notice that the seclusion from the sensual thoughts, etc. was the signature of the new jhana he had discovered long time ago. That was NOT the kind of jhana he learned (up to arupa-jhana) from Uddaka Raamaputta that "does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception only." Now, ask yourself, don't you clearly see that there are two type of jhanas: the old jhanas that do not lead to enlightenment , and the new jhanas that are supported by nekkhamma ("secluded from sensual thoughts and secluded from thoughts of demerit") ? 5. The the Prince, after returning to food and gained back his strength, entered into the jhana system he knew since he was young and living with his father. He wanted to know if such "first jhana" really was "the path to enlightenment." " Partaking coarse food and gaining strength, secluded from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I attained to the first jhaana. Aggivessana, even those arisen pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, with the mind internally appeased, and brought to a single point, without thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I attained to the second jhaana. Aggivessana, even those arisen pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. With equanimity to joy and detachment abode mindful and aware, and with the body experienced pleasantness and attained to the third jhaana. To this abiding the noble ones said, abiding mindfully in pleasantness. Aggivessana, even those pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness, and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, without unpleasantness and pleasantness and mindfulness purified with equanimity, I attained to the fourth jhaana." Tep: So, Swee, you see that Prince Siddartha attained the four rupa- jhanas that were exactly the same as samma-samadhi in DN 22 and also as given in many, many other suttas? What does this story tell you? Now, to prove that Prince Siddartha was an ariya, I simply say that since he attained the eighth Path factor, which cannot float in the air without the support of the other seven Path factors, it is clear that he enterred the Path. One who enters the Path is at least a Sotapanna. Q.E.D. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tep Sastri" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:24 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References > > > Tep: Right, if concentration is not supported by the seven Noble path factors, then it is not called samma-samathi. Samma-samadhi is > > defined by the four new rupa-jhanas that were discovered by Prince > > Siddartha who was already an ariya. > > I'd be interested in texts supporting this--the idea that Gotama was already ariyan. Very interesting! Looking forward to it. > > > If it is not samma-samadhi, then it is not called the 8th factor of the path to Awakening. > > Agreed, of course. > > mike 49823 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 philofillet Hi Swee Boon, Htoo and all > > Why bother about accumulations that can't be seen, can't be heard, > > can't be smelled, can't be tasted, can't be touched and can't be > known > > except by the Buddha? If we don't come to know our accumulations, who will? I think we can come to understand them, but only if we are not in a hurry about it, don't grasp for results. See the adze handle simile. Also, I don't really understand this "can't be seen" etc. Surely you're not denying that there are anusayas, even if they are not known to us yet at our level of insight? Can lobha, for example, be seen, tasted etc? I don't uynderstand. Could you explain this a bit more? Thanks. > > > > By the way, I wonder if Khun Sujin has developed an "accumulations- > o- > > meter"! If you mean to check other people's accumulations, no, we don't know the other's accumulations. A person can quote from a sutta and leave us with no idea whatsoever whether understanding has been accumulated or not. I suppose the Buddha had what you call an "accumulations-a-meter" - he taught in different terms to different people based on his insight into their accumulated wisdom. Thus he was able to predict (if I'm not mistaken) in one sutta that one more hearing of a certain discourse would lead a certain monk to arahantship. If wisdom were not accumulated, what would the Buddha be speaking of in that discourse? Are you suggesting that this monk's wisdom all arose in one lifetime? That seems peculiar when we know that the Buddha taught of countless aeons, of oceans of tears and so on. Sorry, I think this has already been discussed and in more substantial terms than I am capable of... But if you mean that Acharn Sujin has one of these meters for herself, for herself, again see the adze handle. We can come to know our own accumulations, ever so gradually, but only if we don't grasp at measuring them. I'm afraid that in today's world, when there is so much ignorance accumulated (I'm sure you don't dispute that) people have the tendency to be in a hurry, which throws them off the path. > > > > > I WILL REPEAT that if one cannot be enlightened within 7 years > then > > > there is something wrong in his practice. That is he or she is not > > > following rightly. > > > > Good! If they have understanding. Plunging ahead without understanding, with cittas rooted in moha and lobha will only lead to acumulating more lobha and moha. But as you say, in that case there would be "something wrong in his practice." More like "everything wrong." Why do I assume that there is so much lobha and moha at work in the world, even in people's practice? I am still clinging to my understanding of the Fire sutta (the Buddha's third discourse, if I'm not mistaken) in which the Buddha says the world is burning with ignorance, hatred and delusion. When I reflect on this in conjunction with the anatta sutta ( the third discourse - there is no self that can give rise to desired mental states) my expectations are sobered. I may be misinterpreting these suttas, so one of these days I will open a thread to ask you all for your understanding of them. Phil Phil 49824 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: an introduction and a question lbidd2 Hi Hal, Welcome to the group. One of the points of controversy surrounding Buddhaghosa is the nature of concept and reality. You can find many discussions of this topic in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of dsg@yahoo. If you want to start with a good outline of abhidhamma you could read Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life". http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I wouldn't worry about who is enlightened. Just poke your nose around and see where you can learn something. Larry 49825 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 7:42pm Subject: Re: beggars, social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi Jon > > But yes, interest falls away, certainly, when > >there is understanding of paramattha dhammas. Isn't that an aspect > >of detachment? How can we remain interested in people and develop > >detachment in the same moment? No need to answer that. Just thinking > >out loud. > > > > > > Jon: I think I konw what you mean. The interest in people that falls away is the akusala kind of interest (this can take many forms). Technically speaking, in terms of paramattha dhammas, isn't any interest in people based in a distorted perception that they are paramattha? People are pannati, we know in theory. Except if there is metta, real metta. If there is arising of metta, the object of metta must be a person, I imagine, so the object of metta is a concept rather than a reality, it would seem to me. I wonder if that's right. So technically speaking, unless the person is the object of metta, or karuna, wouldn't any interest be akusala - of course of a very slight degree most of the time, a degree that need not be of great concern to worldlings? For example, sama (?) lobha, the mild lobha that makes us turn towards one person because we like their facial expression, or something like that. The kind of lobha that is not worth thinking about that much (beyond recongnizing that it exists) because only the arahant eradicates it. It is the lobha rooted in wrong view that we must look at more carefully. When there is > more interest in dhamma, one can become less absorbed in other sensual > objects, without trying. It is not noticed at first, but after a time > the change becomes apparent. I suppose the exact object(s) will vary > from individual to individual. Yes, I have noticed this. Or have I noticed a conditioned abstention from taking interest in these objects? The interest is still there, deeply accumulated, but a kind of detachment, a peeling away of the surface of the deeply accumulated lobha, is starting to happen. In my case, the object is women. I find myself naturally abstaining from glancing to check out women the way I (and most men, I guess) did naturally before. No intention to do this, no resolutions, no hard effort - it's just happening ever so gradually in the light of the Buddah's teaching. But the accumulation is deeply rooted. As I learned last summer, when the conditions are right and the company wrong, the detachment that I thought was deep and meaningful is revealed to be only a very shallow beginning of detachment, a grain of sand of accumulated panna (which performs detachment) in a Sahara's worth of accumulated lust, greed and various degrees of wanting and liking. > > Of course, it may not last! There has not been the eradicatoin of the > underlying tendency. So it is not something to be clung to ;-)) (but > you know this). Yes, and always so many helpful reminders from DSG friends Phil 49826 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 9:37pm Subject: Re: Accumulation kenhowardau Hi Htoo, ------------------------------- H: > Thanks for your reply. Sorry I almost always confuse with Ken O. Are there any differentiating points? ------------------------------- No apologies necessary: it is not surprising you occasionally get confused - considering you are a member of 89 internet groups! When you say, "Are there any differentiating points?" do you mean, "Are Ken H and Ken O the same person?" No, we are two different people - on two different continents. ------------------------------------------------------------------ KH: > > It is part of the Dhamma. Do you want us to ignore it? ................ Htoo: > I am not saying like that. But why bother unseeable accumulation? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, that does clear things up a little. I am sure neither Sukin nor K Sujin would try to see which dhammas have (or have not) been accumulated. When dhammas are known they are known by panna - not by any 'knower of dhammas.' ------------ KH: > > I don't recall anyone saying they wanted the Dhamma to be very difficult. ................................... Htoo: > This already implied. A hair is split in to 1000 times etc etc.. ------------- But that is part of the Dhamma. It is true for everyone, not just for those who, allegedly, want things to be difficult. ------------------------------------ KH: > > . . , irrespective of what anyone might want or not want, the Dhamma *is* very difficult. ................................ Htoo: > I agree. If easy Bodhisattas would not search for 20 asancheyyas and 100,000 kappas. ---------------------------------------- Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to be disagreeing and agreeing at the same time. -------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: > > If people are trivialising the Dhamma we should discourage them from doing so. ....................... Htoo: > Up to you. -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, perhaps I could have phrased that better: "We should discourage them from doing so IF our opinions are welcome." :-) --------- Htoo: > Some say many many lives are requiredto accumulate. When we all never can see any accumulation, why bother that accumulation? --------- I agree: there is no need to bother with thoughts of, "where am I in all these lives; at the beginning, the middle or the end?" When we bother in that way, accumulations are seen as mine, me or self, and a wrong path is being followed. But it remains true, does it not, that many lives are required to accumulate panna? We can understand that now - to the best of our ability - regardless of whichever of those lives we happen to be in. ----------------------- H: > This does not mean we do not need to study what accumulation means in the context of The Buddha's teachings. ----------------------- I'm glad we agree on that. And I would say it is the same with satipatthana (which is where this conversation started): If we think right practice is mine, me or self, then we are on a wrong path. And that is exactly what happens when we try to emulate the monks in the Satipatthana Sutta. But we might not agree on that. :-) Ken H 49827 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 9:35pm Subject: Just a burning Flash ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Little and short pleasure, but Loong and Painful Tribulation! Pleasures obtained by contact at the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind all fade away and vanish instantly, when their contact ceases! They are all: Like a drop of honey on the edge of a razor blade: Short joy, but much pain! Like a show seen in a flash of lightening: Momentary & exceedingly fleeting! Like a drink made thin & tasteless: Dissatisfying, frustrating & disappointing! Like food all rotten inside or poisoned: Afflicting and causing problems later! Like a baited hook: First juicy, later torturing and tormenting & finally Fatal! Like an inner cage: Imprisoning, punishing, bonding, addicting and making mad! Like sleeping in an enemy's village: Dangerous, hazardous, treacherous & risky! Like a burning hollow tree: Agitated inside, feverish, frantic, violently painful! Like a chain of dry naked bare bones: Not healing any hunger, without nutrition! Like many days of drinking only salt water: Worsening any thirst & dehydrating! Please note the ceasing of sensation, whenever sensing & remember this danger! This is the primary hindrance to break, the first flood to cross: Sense-Desire...!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 49828 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] Wrong view should be regarded as the “highest fault”. Wrong view is dangerous because it can lead to many kinds of evil. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Ones, Chapter XVII): * "Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the arising of evil states not yet arisen, or if arisen, to cause their more-becoming and increase, as perverted view… Monks, in one of perverted view evil states not yet arisen do arise, and if arisen, are apt to grow and grow… Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the non-arising of good states not yet arisen, or, if arisen, to cause their waning, as perverted view… Monks, in one of perverted view good states not yet arisen arise not, or, if arisen, waste away… Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the arising of perverted view, if not yet arisen, or the increase of perverted view, if already arisen, as unsystematic attention(1). In him who gives not systematic attention perverted view, if not arisen, does arise, or, if already arisen, does increase… Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt, when body breaks up after death, to cause the rebirth of beings in the Waste, the Way of Woe, the Downfall, in Hell, as perverted view…" * We read of each case that the opposite is true for right view. Further on, in the same chapter, we read that wrong view is compared to a nimbseed, the seed of a creeper or of a cucumber: * "… Whatsoever essence it derives from earth or water, all that conduces to its bitterness, its acridity, its unpleasantness. What is the cause of that? The ill nature of the seed. Just so, monks, in a man of perverted view, all deeds whatsoever… conduce to Ill. What is the cause of that? Monks, it is perverted view." * Right view is compared to a seed of sugar-cane, paddy or grape: “whatsoever essence it derives from earth or water, all that conduces to its sweetness, pleasantness and delicious flavour.” Even so in a man who has right view, all deeds conduce to happiness. In order to have more understanding of the implications of this sutta we should consider the difference between the life of the non-ariyan and the life of the sotåpanna. The non-ariyan who has not eradicated wrong view has conditions to commit akusala kamma patha which can lead to an unhappy rebirth and thus he is in a dangerous situation. The sotåpanna, who has eradicated wrong view, has no conditions anymore to transgress the five precepts, he has no conditions anymore to commit akusala kamma patha which can cause an unhappy rebirth. He has eradicated stinginess and jealousy, he is full of generosity. When one does not cling anymore to the concept of self and sees realities as they are, this will bear on one’s actions, speech and thoughts. *** 1) Ayoniso manasikåra, unwise attention. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49829 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Mike & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Visuddhimagga XIV, 214 deals with the upadana khandhas: subject to > cankers and liable to clinging. I will study the Tiika too when we come to it. I > always find this subject difficult. .... S: I’ve now checked my notes from discussions and some references, so would like to write more on this as it helps me to clarify my understanding and you may find it useful as well: First, to repeat, there are two meanings of ‘upaadaanakkhandhaa’: a) All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. With regard to the definition of dukkha, given as ‘sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa’ (the five factors of attachment are suffering), this therefore refers, as I understand it, to the dhamma which is the object of clinging now. So when it is the moment of realization and the full penetration of the rising and falling away of dhammas, the object must be one which is usually the object of upadana (clinging). ..... Vism X1V, 214 (~Naa.namoli translation): “As to distinction: as to distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, aggregates is said without distinguishing. Aggregates [as objects] of clinging is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to clingings, according as it is said: ‘Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen.....Any kind of materiality whatever....is called the materiality aggregate.......feeling...perception....formations...consciousness....consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates. “And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever.............consciousness whatever....far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to clingings: this is called the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging’ (S iii,47)” *** b) Rupas conditioned by upadana (clinging) are also referred to as ‘upaadanaakkhandhaa’, i.e kammaja rupas. ‘Upaadi.n.na-ka ruupa’ (clung-to matter) means ‘kammaja-ruupa’ (kamma-born matter). ..... Vism X1V, n23 “Upaadi.n.na (also upaadi.n.naka) is pp. of upaadiyati (he clings), from which the noun upaadaana (clinging) also comes. Upaadi.n.na-(ka) ruupa (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs #653. "It is vaguely renderable by ‘organic or sentient or living matter’; technically, it is matter of the four primaries that is ‘clung to’ (upaadi.n.na) or ‘derived’ (upaadaaya) by kamma. Generally taken as a purely Abhidhamma term (Dhs, p1), it nevertheless occurs in the Suttas at Mi, 185 in the same sense. ...... S: (Dhs #652- 655 gives details of kammaja rupas, rupas which are not kammaja, kammaja rupas which are also objects of clinging, rupas which are not kammaja, but are objects of clinging. Also see Vism X11, n20.) Mi, 185 is the same reference I gave (MN 28, Nanamoli/Bodhi).), to repeat: "What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified and clung-to (upaadi.n.na); that is, head-hairs.............etc" note: "Upaadi.n.na, 'clung-to', is used in the Abhidhamma as a technical term applicable to bodily phenomena that are produced by kamma. Here, however, it is used in a more general sense as applicable to the entire body insofar as it is grasped as 'mine' and misapprehended as a self....According to the Abhidhamma analysis of matter, the four primary elements are inseperable, and thus each element is also included, though in a subordinate role, in the bodily phenomena listed under the three elements." ..... S: See also Vism X1, 27f: “Now comes the description of the development of the definition of the four elements.... It is given in brief in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta, for one of quick understanding who meditation subject is elements, as follows: “Bhikkhus, just as though a skilled butcher or butcher’s apprentice had killed a cow.....’....the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element’ (Dii, 294)............ "In the Mahaatthipadompama Sutta it is given in detail for one of not over-quick understanding whose meditation subject is elements – and as here so also in the Raaahulovaada and Dhaatuuvibha’nga Suttas – as follows: ‘And what is the internal earth element, friends? Whatever there is internally in oneself that is hard, harsh, and clung to [S:upaadi.n.na](acquired throught kamma), that is to say, head hairs, body hairs...........dung, or whatever else is internally in oneself that is hard, harsh, and clung to – this is called the internal earth element.’ (Mi, 185) ..... (S: see other similar references, eg Vism V111, 130.) I’ll also look forward to the Tiika translation you mentioned in due course, Nina. Mike, I’d be glad if you’d let me know if this relates to what you had in mind and for any further comments from anyone, of course. Metta, Sarah ========= 49830 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 1:41am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 531 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) Altogether there are 37 factors that are companions of Bodhi naana or 'knowledge of great-knowing'. 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhanga-s ) Bojjhanga is made up of Pali words 'Bodhi' and 'anga'. When these two words are combined the middle consonent changes. Bodhi + anga = Bodhianga = Bojjhanga. Bodhi has the root 'Bu' which means 'to know'. Bodha means 'who knows'. Dhaara.na means 'carry' 'bring' 'bear'. Bodhas means those who have the power to know. Bodhi means 'highest knowledge' or 'enlightenment'. So bojjhanga means 'limbs of parts of enlightenment'. They are enlightenment factors. Without these factors enlightenment cannot arise. There are 7 enlightenment factors or 7 bojjhangas. They are 1. sati-sam-bojjhanga or 'enlightenment factor of mindfulness' 2. dhammavicaya-sam-bojjganga or 'E F of investigation' 3. piiti-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of joy' 4. passaddhi-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of tranquility' 5. viiriya-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of effort' 6. samaadhi-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of concentration' 7. upekkhaa-sam-bojjhanga or 'E F of equanimity' These dhammas have been repeatedly explained in many sections before. Here sati is not just like other sati but it becomes the part of enlightenment and it only arise near magga. Dhammavicaya is pannaa. It is investigative mental factor and it arise near magga or near the Path. It only arises when there is enlightenment just going to arise and it is perfected at the time when magga citta arises. Piiti here is joy and it is also a factor of enlightenment. It just arises when it is very close to magga citta just going to arise. Nibbana is complete bliss. Because of the power of nibbana or because of the power of that arammana all the mental factors are filled with joy. This joy is supplied by piiti as piiti-sam-bojjhanga. All lokuttara cittas have to have this factor piiti. Passaddhi is another factor of enlightenment. There are many passaddhi in all kusala dhamma. But unlike them, passaddhi in passaddhi-sam-bojjhanga only arises when it is quite close to magga citta. It tranquizes all mental components at that time when magga citta is just going to arise. Viiriya is also a bojjhanga. It is viiriya-sam-bojjhanga. It supports other dhamma when it is very near to magga kaala or the time of magga citta arises. It suppies with fuel and support other factors while itself is working to its maximum. At such a time, the samaadhi at that time is very concentrated. Even unlike ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana, this samaadhi is much much more meaningful than those two samaadhi in lokii dhamma. Here it is quite close to lokuttara dhamma, nibbana. Nibbana is just going to be seen. So this samaadhi is called samaadhi-sam-bojjhanga. When there are these 6 factors, at the same time, tatramajjhattataa is also working as a factor of enlightenment. It equalises all the work of these mental factor. Because of this factor, there is no much exhaustion. Instead all the mental factors become powerful and they will be working in their maximal capacity. This factor is called upekkhaa-sam-bojjhanga. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49831 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 10:36pm Subject: Re: an introduction and a question bardosein Hi Larry, Thanks for the advice and tips. Nina's book seems like a good place start. I agree with you that one should worry about specualtive questions concerning others attainments. This approach won't benefit the understanding. I'll indeed poke around and learn what I can. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Hal, > > Welcome to the group. One of the points of controversy surrounding > Buddhaghosa is the nature of concept and reality. You can find many > discussions of this topic in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of > dsg@yahoo. If you want to start with a good outline of abhidhamma you > could read Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life". http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > I wouldn't worry about who is enlightened. Just poke your nose around > and see where you can learn something. > > Larry 49832 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Sep 7, 2005 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] an introduction and a question bardosein Hi Nina, Thank you for your helpful reminder. As you say, there is no need to think about what others say about Buddhaghosa. My original question, poorly formulated, was more concerned with establishing right- understanding about dependent origination. I will follow Larry's suggestion and first read your introductory book on Abhidhamma. If it is possible, I would be most interested in following your study of Chapter XVII. Are you using Ven. Nanamoli's English translation? Happy to have joined this study group. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hello Hal, > There is no need to think of what others say about Buddhaghosa, best to > study him yourself. Then you can see for yourself. > Larry is the project leader of the Visuddhimagga. Just now we are still on > Ch XIV, the khandhas. In a few months Larry wants to begin with Ch XVII, the > second part, because we reckon about two years finishing this part. It is > about Dependent Origination and I add summaries of the Tiika. I do now for > Ch XIV. > So, then you have an opportunity to see for yourself what Buddhaghosa wrote. > Nina. > op 07-09-2005 15:45 schreef Hal op bardosein@y...: > > > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. 49833 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: Accumulation htootintnaing Dear Ken H, I almost agree everything. Here only a few points to discuss. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Htoo, ------------------------------- >H:Thanks for your reply. Sorry I almost always confuse with Ken O. > Are there any differentiating points? ------------------------------- Ken H: No apologies necessary: it is not surprising you occasionally get confused - considering you are a member of 89 internet groups! When you say, "Are there any differentiating points?" do you mean, "Are Ken H and Ken O the same person?" No, we are two different people - on two different continents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Your address says you are from Australia. H stands for Howard. I do know there are 2 Ken's. Names are similar. What is more? Your Dhamma knowledge are also solid and similar. What I said is to differentiate between you two. I know 2 mail addresses are different. What I asked was something like 'salient point that we discussed'. This will remind me who is who. Ken O is a member of JourneyToNibbana while you are still not. I remember one of fathers died. Who was that father? That will also remind me something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > KH: > > It is part of the Dhamma. Do you want us to ignore it? ................ > Htoo: > I am not saying like that. But why bother unseeable > accumulation? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Thanks, that does clear things up a little. I am sure neither Sukin nor K Sujin would try to see which dhammas have (or have not) been accumulated. When dhammas are known they are known by panna - not by any 'knower of dhammas.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To be exact 'When dhammas are known they are known by citta - not directly by panna, who is an assistant to citta. I agree there is no 'person who knows dhammas'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > KH: > > I don't recall anyone saying they wanted the Dhamma > to be very difficult. ................................... > Htoo: > This already implied. A hair is split in to 1000 times etc > etc.. ------------- Keb H: But that is part of the Dhamma. It is true for everyone, not just for those who, allegedly, want things to be difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > KH: > > . . , irrespective of what anyone might want or > not want, the Dhamma *is* very difficult. ................................ > Htoo: > I agree. If easy Bodhisattas would not search for 20 > asancheyyas and 100,000 kappas. ---------------------------------------- Ken H: Forgive me for saying so, but you seem to be disagreeing and agreeing at the same time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes, of course. You can see this point of mine. Very sharp. It is difficult, very difficult because Bodhisattas have to search for 20 asancheyyas and 100,000 kappas in minimum or 32 asancheyyas and 100,00 kappas in maximum. It seems not difficult because The Buddha already taught Dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken H: > > If people are trivialising the Dhamma we should discourage them from doing so. ....................... > Htoo: > Up to you. -------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Yes, perhaps I could have phrased that better: "We should discourage them from doing so IF our opinions are welcome." :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My thoughts are that we should not judge on Dhamma whether it is difficult or easy or anything but to study diligently and persistently until we have learnt Dhamma through realization. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Some say many many lives are requiredto accumulate. When we > all never can see any accumulation, why bother that accumulation? --------- Ken H: I agree: there is no need to bother with thoughts of, "where am I in all these lives; at the beginning, the middle or the end?" When we bother in that way, accumulations are seen as mine, me or self, and a wrong path is being followed. But it remains true, does it not, that many lives are required to accumulate panna? We can understand that now - to the best of our ability - regardless of whichever of those lives we happen to be in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > This does not mean we do not need to study what accumulation > means in the context of The Buddha's teachings. ----------------------- Ken H: I'm glad we agree on that. And I would say it is the same with satipatthana (which is where this conversation started): If we think right practice is mine, me or self, then we are on a wrong path. And that is exactly what happens when we try to emulate the monks in the Satipatthana Sutta. But we might not agree on that. :-) Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We have to see things from many different views, that is from above, from below, from right side, from left side, from the front, from the back and from any other possible angles and this would make a complete understanding. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49834 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] an introduction and a question sarahprocter... Hi Hal, I'd just like to join the others in welcoming you here too. --- Hal wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I joined this forum sometime ago, but did not follow it for very > long, nor did I participate. I have been practising the Burmese > Satipatthana method for over the past seven years after being first > introduced to the method by very kind senior Thai monk in > Northeastern Thailand. Since then I've continued intensive practise > under the guidance of Burmese Sayadaws as well as doing several > solitary retreats in Issan. I've made very slow progress and it is > only in the past few years that my interest in Abhidhamma has grown. .... S: thanks for all the background info. Where do you live now? Looking forward to anything else you care to add. .... > A few years ago, I tried reading Ven. Nyanaponika's _Abhidhamma > Studies_. I found it fascinating but most of it remained well beyond > my understanding. Now however, with continued practice, the > Abhidhamma's schemata is just beginning (stress on beginning) to make > practical sense. ... S: As Larry said, you may like to use 'Useful Posts' in the files for specific topics from time to time for a very personal selection from the archives. ... > > Now for my first question: > > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. Doesn't > Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained > his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has > not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar > monk? ... S: you might like to look at these posts (from 'U.P.': 'Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - paticcasamuppada and rebirth, Insight' 20495, 20512, 20530, 25185, 34755 Also, see 'Dependent Origination' and other relevant posts under headings such as 'avijja', 'sankhara', 'vinnana'. ***** I also highly recommend B.Bodhi's translation of the Mahaanidaana Sutta and commentaries, if you can get a copy from BPS or Pariyatti Books in the States. I know Nina, Larry and others will be delighted if you join in the Visuddhimagga thread anytime and any others. Or just keep starting your own. I'm sure you're being very modest in the way you refer to your past reflections and study of Abhidhamma. B.Bodhi's translation, 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' is also very useful as a reference text. If you find anything in Nina's book, 'ADL' to question or comment on, please do so. Thanks for joining us. Metta, Sarah ======= 49835 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > > Wrong view should be regarded as the "highest fault". Wrong > view is dangerous because it can lead to many kinds of evil. We > read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Ones, Chapter XVII): > * > "Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the arising > of evil states not yet arisen, or if arisen, to cause their more- becoming > and increase, as perverted view… > > Monks, in one of perverted view evil states not yet arisen do arise, > and if arisen, are apt to grow and grow… > > Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the > non-arising of good states not yet arisen, or, if arisen, to cause their > waning, as perverted view… > > Monks, in one of perverted view good states not yet arisen arise not, > or, if arisen, waste away… > > Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the > arising of perverted view, if not yet arisen, or the increase of perverted > view, if already arisen, as unsystematic attention(1). > > In him who gives not systematic attention perverted view, if not > arisen, does arise, or, if already arisen, does increase… > > Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt, when body > breaks up after death, to cause the rebirth of beings in the Waste, the > Way of Woe, the Downfall, in Hell, as perverted view…" > * > We read of each case that the opposite is true for right view. > Further on, in the same chapter, we read that wrong view is > compared to a nimbseed, the seed of a creeper or of a cucumber: > * > "… Whatsoever essence it derives from earth or water, all that > conduces to its bitterness, its acridity, its unpleasantness. What is the > cause of that? The ill nature of the seed. Just so, monks, in a man of > perverted view, all deeds whatsoever… conduce to Ill. What is the > cause of that? Monks, it is perverted view." > * > Right view is compared to a seed of sugar-cane, paddy or grape: > "whatsoever essence it derives from earth or water, all that conduces > to its sweetness, pleasantness and delicious flavour." Even so in a > man who has right view, all deeds conduce to happiness. > > In order to have more understanding of the implications of this > sutta we should consider the difference between the life of the > non-ariyan and the life of the sotåpanna. The non-ariyan who has > not eradicated wrong view has conditions to commit akusala kamma > patha which can lead to an unhappy rebirth and thus he is in a > dangerous situation. > > The sotåpanna, who has eradicated wrong view, has no conditions anymore to > transgress the five precepts, he has no conditions anymore to commit > akusala kamma patha which can cause an unhappy rebirth. He has eradicated > stinginess and jealousy, he is full of generosity. > > When one does not cling anymore to the concept of self and sees realities > as they are, this will bear on one's actions, speech and thoughts. > *** > 1) Ayoniso manasikåra, unwise attention. > ***** > [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear sarah, Thanks for this post. What is 'Gradual Sayings' in Pali? With respect, Htoo Naing 49836 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 2:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 532 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) The last in these stocks is the stock of path-factor or 'atthangika magga' or '8 maggangas'. There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'path-factor of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'path-factor of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'path-factor of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'path-factor of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'path-factor of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'path-factor of right concentration' (ekaggataa) The first 2 are called 'pannaa magganga'. The middle three of 3,4,5 are called 'siila magganga'. And the last three of 6,7,8 are called samaadhi magganga. Sometimes these factors are talked in packed form as siila, samaadhi, and pannaa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49837 From: "Hal" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: an introduction and a question bardosein Sarah, Thanks for all the helpful links and warm welcome! I currently live in Seoul, Korea and teach at a university here. I do appreciate Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentaries and translations and look forward to studying them with the group. I will try to track down Ven. Bodhi's translation of the sutta you've recommended. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Hal, > > I'd just like to join the others in welcoming you here too. > --- Hal wrote: > 49838 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:17am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with moment, kha.na. Kha.na is different from the word moment as it is used in conventional language where it has a wider meaning. Whereas kha.na has a very precise meaning. It refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution. When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door. The Expositor deals with many meanings of the term arisen, uppanna. We read: Thus, kha.na does not refer to life period, nor to serial presence. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense, namely arising, presence, and dissolution. ----------- Text Vis. 190: (d) 'According to moment': what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. ------------------------------ The Tiika explains that the classification according to moment, kha.na is according to time (kala). The translator Pe Maung Tin repeats the words of the Tiika ŒAt a time previous to that it is 'future': Therefore it is still future, it will come into being. The Tiika adds to ŒAt a time subsequent to that it is past': that this is to be taken literally. It is past when it has passed through the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion (p. 8): Conclusion: When we consider the meaning of kha.na, moment, we are reminded that the processes of cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly. In one process seeing arises, and it seems that we immediately think of a concept of what is seen, of a person or thing. However, several processes have elapsed before a concept is experienced in a mind-door process. There is no person who can exert control over the cittas that arise, perform each their own function and then fall away immediately. Cittas succeed one another in a series. We read in the Expositor (p. 149) that connecting, sandahana, is the manifestation of citta: It seems that cittas last, but the meaning of kha.na, moment, reminds us of the impermanence of dhammas. As soon as a dhamma has arisen, it is going towards its cessation, it is gone immediately. When paññaa arises it does so for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. However, a moment of paññaa is never lost, it is accumulated so that there are conditions for its arising again. This exhorts us not to waste the moments of which our life consists. There can be accumulation of paññaa at this moment. Summarizing the four aspects according to which ruupa can be seen as past, future and present: according to (a) extent (addhaa), (b) continuity (santati), (c) period (samaya) and (d) moment (kha.na). Thus, the first three are figurative and the last one is literal. ****** Nina. 49839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: beggars, social life and paramatthas. nilovg Hi Phil, I just heard on MP3 about asubha and I thought of a remark you made some time ago. You found that asubha, foulness counteracts lobha. Kh Sujin read the example of Mahaa Tissa who saw a girl laughing but he just paid attention to the bones of her teeth. He attained arahatship. She mentioned being aware of objects externally, as stated in the satipatthana sutta. We see a person and mostly we are forgetful of nama and rupa. But seeing a body can be a means of recollection that wakens us up so that there is awareness of nama and rupa. We are not yet a corpse but we sure shall be. This can condition samvega, a sense of urgency, so that we are less infatuated with what we see and perceive. When I look at my hand, it is not difficult to see it as the hand of a corpse. It can remind me, waken me up, so that I do not waste my short life away with forgetfulness. There is also another side to it: lobha for samvega. Or trying to see corpses when looking at people, and this is unnatural. Lobha always creeping in! But understanding, even though conceptual, can help me to detect this. I find this a point for discussion in India: how external objects are a means for not being forgetful. What you say about metta: having a being, thus a concept, as object is correct. We should not despise concepts. I wrote before that I find the Brahma viharas important for my social life. At the same time the Abhidhamma helps to develop them in the right way, not taking for kusala what is selfish affection. BTW the anaagaami has eradicated liking persons, their appearance, because he has no more clinging to sense objects. Nina. Phil wrote: The interest is > still there, deeply accumulated, but a kind of detachment, a peeling > away of the surface of the deeply accumulated lobha, is starting to > happen. 49840 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamms. Hmm... In Buddhism, there is only Right Views and Wrong Views. It is either Right or Wrong and there is no such gray area which fall in the middle. I don't think Wrong View covers only Akusala Kamma Patha. In fact, doing Kusala Kamma patha may also fall under Wrong View. To understand this we have to differentiate What is Right, Wrong, Good and Bad. We can do a lot of good deeds and those actions may not be right. So what is Right View? Right View is basically based on: 1. Right View based on Offering 2. Right View based on Kamma 3. Right View based on Suffering or 4 Noble Truth. Any other view not in those 3 catagories are Wrong Views. Hope this helps.... Metta mr39515 --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > > Wrong view should be regarded as the “highest > fault”. Wrong > view is dangerous because it can lead to many kinds > of evil. We > read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Ones, > Chapter XVII): <....> 49841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] an introduction and a question nilovg Hi Hal, op 08-09-2005 08:06 schreef Hal op bardosein@...: > I would be most interested in following your study of > Chapter XVII. Are you using Ven. Nanamoli's English translation? -------- N: Mostly, but Connie gave me Maung Tin and this is good for comparison, especially for the complicated passages, I am having now with Ch XIV of Visuddhimagga. Take a look if you like. Next to this I have the Pali which is necessary, sometimes the translation is not quite correct. And the Tiika. Nina. 49842 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: > Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamms. > > Hmm... In Buddhism, there is only Right Views and > Wrong Views. It is either Right or Wrong and there is > no such gray area which fall in the middle. > > I don't think Wrong View covers only Akusala Kamma > Patha. In fact, doing Kusala Kamma patha may also fall > under Wrong View. > > To understand this we have to differentiate What is > Right, Wrong, Good and Bad. We can do a lot of good > deeds and those actions may not be right. > > So what is Right View? Right View is basically based > on: > 1. Right View based on Offering > 2. Right View based on Kamma > 3. Right View based on Suffering or 4 Noble Truth. > > Any other view not in those 3 catagories are Wrong > Views. > > Hope this helps.... > > Metta > mr39515 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mr Ng Boon Huat, Thanks for your post. Interesting. Could you please expand what right view means? You said wrong view can be associated with kusala actions? Could you please explain this with examples and evidences? With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I do not know whether you are a new member or old member. Welcome to DSG. 49843 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:27am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190 and Tiika htootintnaing Dear Nina, Thanks for these ongoing posts. Just something to discuss here. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with moment, kha.na. Kha.na is different from the word moment as it is used in conventional language where it has a wider meaning. Whereas kha.na has a very precise meaning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bravo! This is why I stick to Pali. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It [kha.na] refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. There are 51 kha.nas. The 'arising moment' is one kha.na, the 'dissolution moment' is another kha.na. The moment of presence of ruupa has 49 kha.nas unlike naama where it just has 1 kha.na as its presence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I think we need to specify that '17' in numbers are '17' kha.nas and all these kha.nas are occupied by different cittas. In the whole series the first 3 kha.nas are occupied by 3 life- continuums and the following 14 kha.nas are occupied by 'cittas of sense-door process'. When these 17 naama-dhamma successively arise one after another there only arise 2 ruupas. One is internal sense-base (eye,ear,nose,tongue,body) and another ruupa is external sense-base or object. While these 2 ruupas arises there arise a citta. But while that citta passes away, the two ruupas have not passed away because they are in their moment of presence. These two ruupas persist further 50 kha.nas, of which the last kha.na is called 'the kha.na of dissolution of ruupa'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now there is no longer any object. And there is no longer any sense- base. I mean the ones that existed just before they passed away. But the characters of object are passed over and these arise as dhamma-arammana or mind-object and it is sensed or experienced through the mind-door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Expositor deals with many meanings of the term arisen, uppanna. We read: Thus, kha.na does not refer to life period, nor to serial presence. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense, namely arising, presence, and dissolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very clear. Thanks Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Text Vis. 190: (d) 'According to moment': what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, this is a bit complicated at least for me because of language expression. The clock goes by hour, by minute, by second. The second hand goes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,---,58,59,60. Let us take 1,2,3 only. When 2 is present that is at the time when 2 is there, 3 has not arisen and 3 is future. When 2 is present that is at the time when 1 has passed away, 1 is past. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Tiika explains that the classification according to moment, kha.na is according to time (kala). The translator Pe Maung Tin repeats the words of the Tiika ŒAt a time previous to that it is 'future': Therefore it is still future, it will come into being. The Tiika adds to ŒAt a time subsequent to that it is past': that this is to be taken literally. It is past when it has passed through the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion (p. 8): ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, what is Dispeller of Delusion? What is Pali word for that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- beginning with the moment (kha.na) is literal (nippariyaaya) (cf. M.A. I, 89). The rest are figurative (sapariyaaya). Conclusion: When we consider the meaning of kha.na, moment, we are reminded that the processes of cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. I agree. But a member at another group does not believe this and he even said that even The Buddha would not know. And he continued that 'this idea of 17 cittas and 1 ruupa' is non- sense because people cannot see and The Buddha would not see them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In one process seeing arises, and it seems that we immediately think of a concept of what is seen, of a person or thing. However, several processes have elapsed before a concept is experienced in a mind-door process. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no person who can exert control over the cittas that arise, perform each their own function and then fall away immediately. Cittas succeed one another in a series. We read in the Expositor (p. 149) that connecting, sandahana, is the manifestation of citta: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is hard to see. Especially for those who were not Buddhists and who never learned these. That is why mind is assumed as a continuous non-vanishing thing. Some believe that is spirit, some as mind, some as heart, some as consciousness, some as life-force and some as 'ATTA'. It is so subtle that this 'anantara-ness' cannot be seen by ordinary mind but just through pa.tipatti. Some may think that 'my mind is now at this text, well then it goes to the kitchen and back again to the fly who rest on the glass. And so on'. Genuine patiyatti and pa.tipatti will lead to realization (pa.tivedha) that 'this is just a manifestation of citta'. When this is seen wrong-view is already departed. This is ditthi- visuddhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems that cittas last, but the meaning of kha.na, moment, reminds us of the impermanence of dhammas. As soon as a dhamma has arisen, it is going towards its cessation, it is gone immediately. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually kha.na is not time. Kha.na is manifestation of impermanence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When paññaa arises it does so for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pa~n~naa is a cetasika. It arises with citta. Citta passes away. Then pannaa passes away. Yes, very short period is there for pannaa to be presence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- However, a moment of paññaa is never lost, it is accumulated so that there are conditions for its arising again. This exhorts us not to waste the moments of which our life consists. There can be accumulation of paññaa at this moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pannaa works along with sannaa. Sannaa also accumulates. When we never seen green, we do not know green whoever is explaining what 'green' is like because we have not experienced 'green'. But as soon as we see it, the first marker is 'sannaa'. Not pannaa. That sannaa accumulates and because of that green is known at any time after first seen. But pannaa starts to penetrate all essence of 'green'. When pannaa is full 'green' is mastered by pannaa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Summarizing the four aspects according to which ruupa can be seen as past, future and present: according to (a) extent (addhaa), (b) continuity (santati), (c) period (samaya) and (d) moment (kha.na). Thus, the first three are figurative and the last one is literal. ****** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Nina. Can you explain this last part from 'Summarizing the ...' to '...is literal'? With much respect, Htoo Naing 49844 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 533 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) The last in these stocks is the stock of path-factor or 'atthangika magga' or '8 maggangas'. There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'path-factor of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'path-factor of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'path-factor of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'path-factor of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'path-factor of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'path-factor of right concentration' (ekaggataa) Among 7 stocks of Bodhipakkhiya sangaha or 'companions of enlightenment' this last stock is the most interested area and it is also the most interesting area. Why? This Path is in the sutta that came first among all suttas. It is in The Buddha's First Discourse called Dahhacakkappavattana sutta. There are many later suttas that preach on these 8 path-factors. Anyway, The Buddha preached in this order. That is starts with 'samma- ditthi' and ends with 'samma-sammaadhi'. Whatever it is samma-ditthi is the most important even though other path-factors are necessary. Only when there is right view, thinking will be right. Only when thinking is right, speech will be right. Only when speech is right, all actions will be right. Only when speech and actions are right, livelihood will be right. Only when livelihood is right, effort will be right. Only when effort is right, there will be right mindfulness. Only when there is right mindfulness, there will arise right concentration. All these are interconnected and so the first thing is to have a right view. To have a right view is to understand Dhamma. To understand Dhamma is to study properly. To study properly is to have good friends in Dhamma. To have good friends in Dhamma is to join those who have great interest in Dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49845 From: "Hal" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] an introduction and a question bardosein Nina, I will take a look. I just read your interesting comments on kha.na. Thanks. Hal 49846 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 5:55am Subject: Tep's Qus for A.Sujin (was:Re: Cambodian ..) Let me ask Swee buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and Swee - On a second thought, I think I should ask Swee for permission if he'd allow his questions be submitted by someone else to A. Sujin. It sounds a little complicated, but it is more appropriate to ask Swee first. Swee, what do you think about all this? Do you want to do it yourself? Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > Hi Tep, (James, Phil & all), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Sarah, could you please send these two Swee's excellent questions to > > Ajarn Sujin? I shall be glad to know what her answers might be. > Thank > > you in advance! > .... > S: I'll happily take any questions to show or (more likely) read out > to her when many of us join her for discussions fairly soon. The > easiest thing for me/us would be if you could send a separate post > here addressed to A.Sujin perhaps(with maybe my name in brackets) and > just the questions, so I don't have to go searching for them. Any > number is fine -- shorter ones are easier to read out.I hope James and > others will do the same. Then I'll just print out and put aside those > posts to take and try to give her exact words in reply. I sometimes do > this for Nina and other friends and it's a pleasure. > > Could you start by doing this with the two Qus you referred to of SB's? > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Apologies in advance for delays.... > > oops, Phil, the English love apologies, sorry about that:)). There was > a funny English 'candid camera' program I once saw in which an actor > deliberately bumped into shoppers, stood on their feet, knocked their > shopping and worse. Nearly all the poor shoppers apologised profusely > for the trouble they caused him! I'm sure Naomi and your Japanese > friends understand this too:). I think it can be just a sign of > friendliness or goodwill or just good manners? 49847 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 6:29am Subject: Tep's Qus for A.Sujin (was:Re: Cambodian ..) Let me ask Swee nidive Hi Tep & Sarah, > On a second thought, I think I should ask Swee for permission if > he'd allow his questions be submitted by someone else to A. Sujin. > It sounds a little complicated, but it is more appropriate to ask > Swee first. > > Swee, what do you think about all this? Do you want to do it > yourself? Actually, I have no intention to ask Khun Sujin. But since Tep wants it, go ahead then. I have no objections. Regards, Swee Boon 49848 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Tep, > Essentially, you both do not believe that Prince Saddartha in the > autobiography told by the Buddha in MN 36 (Mahasaccaka Sutta) was > already "at least a Sotapanna". A sotapanna is endowed with four qualities: (1) unwavering confidence in the Awakened One (2) unwavering confidence in the Dhamma (3) unwavering confidence in the Sangha (4) virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-030.html Would a sotapanna accept Alara Kalama as his teacher and go forth under him? Would a sotapanna accept Uddaka Ramaputta as his teacher and go forth under him? Regards, Swee Boon 49849 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) nidive Hi Htoo, > Dear Mr Ng Boon Huat, > > Thanks for your post. Interesting. Could you please expand what > right view means? > > You said wrong view can be associated with kusala actions? Could you > please explain this with examples and evidences? An example I could give is: A Christian who donates generously to charities in the belief that Jesus (his God) taught that one should share one's wealth with others. Even though he doesn't believe in kamma, I believe that his donations are meritorious acts. But his belief in an omnipotent God is a demeritorious act. Just my thinking. Regards, Swee Boon 49850 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina & Mike) - In a message dated 9/8/05 4:11:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Nina, Mike & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Visuddhimagga XIV, 214 deals with the upadana khandhas: subject to > cankers and liable to clinging. I will study the Tiika too when we come to it. I > always find this subject difficult. .... S: I’ve now checked my notes from discussions and some references, so would like to write more on this as it helps me to clarify my understanding and you may find it useful as well: First, to repeat, there are two meanings of ‘upaadaanakkhandhaa’: a) All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. With regard to the definition of dukkha, given as ‘sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa’ (the five factors of attachment are suffering), this therefore refers, as I understand it, to the dhamma which is the object of clinging now. So when it is the moment of realization and the full penetration of the rising and falling away of dhammas, the object must be one which is usually the object of upadana (clinging). ..... Vism X1V, 214 (~Naa.namoli translation): “As to distinction: as to distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, aggregates is said without distinguishing. Aggregates [as objects] of clinging is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to clingings, according as it is said: ‘Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen.....Any kind of materiality whatever....is called the materiality aggregate.......feeling...perception....formations...consciousness....consciou sness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates. “And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever.............consciousness whatever....far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to clingings: this is called the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging’ (S iii,47)â€? *** b) Rupas conditioned by upadana (clinging) are also referred to as ‘upaadanaakkhandhaa’, i.e kammaja rupas. ‘Upaadi.n.na-ka ruupa’ (clung-to matter) means ‘kammaja-ruupa’ (kamma-born matter). ..... Vism X1V, n23 “Upaadi.n.na (also upaadi.n.naka) is pp. of upaadiyati (he clings), from which the noun upaadaana (clinging) also comes. Upaadi.n.na-(ka) ruupa (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs #653. "It is vaguely renderable by ‘organic or sentient or living matter’; technically, it is matter of the four primaries that is ‘clung to’ (upaadi.n.na) or ‘derived’ (upaadaaya) by kamma. Generally taken as a purely Abhidhamma term (Dhs, p1), it nevertheless occurs in the Suttas at Mi, 185 in the same sense. ...... S: (Dhs #652- 655 gives details of kammaja rupas, rupas which are not kammaja, kammaja rupas which are also objects of clinging, rupas which are not kammaja, but are objects of clinging. Also see Vism X11, n20.) =============================== Thank you for this! I have long maintained that there is a distinction to be made between the mere khandhas and the khandhas afflicted by clinging, but in the past I have gotten the impression that some good folks here on DSG don't recognize a distinction. What you have written here, yourself, and what you quote from Buddhaghosa really please me. They are clear and to the point. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49851 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > > Dear Mr Ng Boon Huat, > > > > Thanks for your post. Interesting. Could you please expand what > > right view means? > > > > You said wrong view can be associated with kusala actions? Could you > > please explain this with examples and evidences? An example I could give is: A Christian who donates generously to charities in the belief that Jesus (his God) taught that one should share one's wealth with others. Even though he doesn't believe in kamma, I believe that his donations are meritorious acts. But his belief in an omnipotent God is a demeritorious act. Just my thinking. Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Dhamma is not like that. There is no discrimination. If we believe The Buddha is an omipotent without knowing actual dhamma this may also be wrong view. Well a Christian donates something to someone. This is meritorious deed. No doubt. 1. is it killing? 2. is it stealing? 3. is it misusing of sense? 4. is it lying When he or she donates there isn't anything like wrong view even though he or she is a Christian. Otherwise other religions will never have any kind of kusala. But they do have. If it is real donation then it is kusala. There are 8 such kusalas. As they are Christian they may lack panna regarding kamma. So they will be doing with naana-vippayutta cittas. Not akusala. Equally if a Buddhist donates something. It is kusala. But while donating, during that action, there might arise akusala like 'wanting the very great results in this life or next life'. There is no discrimination between religions, race, sex or anything. Dhamma is dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49852 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) nidive Hi Htoo, > Dhamma is not like that. There is no discrimination. If we believe > The Buddha is an omipotent without knowing actual dhamma this may > also be wrong view. > There is no discrimination between religions, race, sex or anything. > Dhamma is dhamma. I think you are disturbed by my declaration: "But his belief in an omnipotent God is a demeritorious act." I say that it is a demeritorious act because it is wrong view; there is no such thing as an omnipotent God. But you are right that Dhamma does not discriminate between religions, race, sex or whatever. Regards, Swee Boon 49853 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Tep) - In a message dated 9/8/05 9:36:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: A sotapanna is endowed with four qualities: (1) unwavering confidence in the Awakened One (2) unwavering confidence in the Dhamma (3) unwavering confidence in the Sangha (4) virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration ========================== As I think about it, I find the 1st three of these problematical in a way: 1)What of a (present or future) paccekabuddha? Do the 1st three apply? 2) Also, cannot a stream enterer incur results of kamma or other conditions that would cause a coma during some life, or could not a stream entrant have a birth on some occasion in a consciousness-less state? In either case, again, do the 1st three apply? Certainly, though, a disciple of a buddha or a student of his extant teachings will, upon stream entry, experience a joyous confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels, and I assume that is what is implied by this standard formulation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49854 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I made a note to use this when at Vis. XIV, 214. Nina. op 08-09-2005 10:10 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > > a) All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of > upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana > (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls > away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base > whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. 49855 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) nilovg Dear Ng Boon, I think I did not see you before, welcome. You reminded me of an important aspect of daana and paññaa. Kh Sujin mentioned this in her Perfections, it helps us to understand daana as a perfection. I quote: I like to add something to your observations. op 08-09-2005 11:30 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: So what is Right View? Right View is basically based > on: > 1. Right View based on Offering > 2. Right View based on Kamma > 3. Right View based on Suffering or 4 Noble Truth. ------ N: Yes, it is paññaa to understand kamma and vipaaka, and this understanding becomes clearer at the stages of insight. 3: yes, when there is ignorance of the four noble truths there is no paññaa. We can use the word paññaa for right view. ---------- Ng B: Any other view not in those 3 catagories are Wrong > Views. > I don't think Wrong View covers only Akusala Kamma > Patha. In fact, doing Kusala Kamma patha may also fall > under Wrong View. --------- N: I would say, kusala kamma without paññaa does not lead us out of samsara and in so far it is not the right practice, in a sutta even jhaana is called wrong practice. It depends under which aspects one views realities. You say: We can do a lot of good deeds and those actions may not be right. The outward deeds may seem good, but the citta may have the wrong intention. We have to know the citta at that moment, besides, there are so many cittas alternating each other, kusala and akusala. I learnt from the Abhidhamma that wrong view accompanies four types of citta rooted in lobha. When there is dosa or conceit, there is no wrong view. When the citta is kusala, there is no wrong view at that moment. Kusala citta can be accompanied by paññaa or not, there are eight different types. Nina. > To understand this we have to differentiate What is > Right, Wrong, Good and Bad. We can do a lot of good > deeds and those actions may not be right. > > So what is Right View? Right View is basically based > on: > 1. Right View based on Offering > 2. Right View based on Kamma > 3. Right View based on Suffering or 4 Noble Truth. > > > Hope this helps.... > > Metta > mr39515 > > --- sarah abbott > wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom >> >> http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html >> http://www.zolag.co.uk/ >> >> Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) >> ========================================== >> [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] >> >> Wrong view should be regarded as the “highest >> fault”. Wrong >> view is dangerous because it can lead to many kinds >> of evil. We >> read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Ones, >> Chapter XVII): > <....> 49856 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your response to the quiz answers. Just going through your response and jotting down a few thoughts. > Ph: It accumulates. And when the conditions are right, akusala kamma > > patha can arise, conditioned by the accumulating lobha. On the other > > hand, trying to avoid it would be foolish. > ------- > N: The Buddha also taught the four right efforts, and these are conditioned > by right understanding of the eightfold Path. There is avoiding, but this is > a conditioned dhamma. I should point out that I meant the "it" above to refer to samalobha (?) the relatively harmless lobha that is the stuff of daily life, usually, for the busy worldling. It would be foolish to try to avoid it, as in Rob K's ice cream story. I do think that avoiding akusala kamma patha is possible - abstaining can arise. As you say, a conditioned dhamma. There is a tendency to think of precepts, to make vows, and to be content in them, but that is not avoiding. It is only when the opportunity to transgress arises that the precepts have real meaning. This is nothing new, but I like to write it out. It's encouraging. > -------- > > Ph: ii Visible object is what appears through the eyes, it is not a > >> "thing?E Can attachment to visible object arise during the > >> eye-door process? > ... You wrote > > that there is lobha involved in the process of perceiving an object > > through the mind door, figuring out what it is. We want to know what > > it is, there is lobha there. I wondered if there are any suttas that > > point to this. I think there are, in samyutta nikaya, I think there > > are. > ____ > N: In many, many suttas the Buddha speaks about attachment through the six > doors. Note, he speaks of the mind-door separately, distinguishing it from > the five sense-doors. Actually, I miswrote above. The question I wanted to ask what not whether there is lobha in the mind door - of course there is - but actually before, at the eye door. The passage in the book that I meant to ask about was this: (p.143) "Even during the sense-door process, before the object is experienced though the mind-door, lobha can arise." Is this akin to "lust incited" by "objects cognizable by the eye" as it appears in the following sutta passage you provided? > See for example; K IV, 60, Pu.n.na. object) cognizable by the eye, objects ...inciting to lust...If a monk be > enamoured of such...there comes a lure upon him...> This is very interesting. Things get subtler. "Enamored" doesn't sound like something that would happen with respect to a visible object at the eye door, but it is good for me to be able to reflect on that from now on when I read those suttas. Or is it referring to objects that have fallen away at the eye door and rearisen in mind door processes, where the "lust" and "enamored" take place? I hope that's a clear question. Thanks in advance for any feedback, if and when you have time, Nina. Phil 49857 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Howard, > A sotapanna is endowed with four qualities: > (1) unwavering confidence in the Awakened One > (2) unwavering confidence in the Dhamma > (3) unwavering confidence in the Sangha > (4) virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, > unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, > untarnished, leading to concentration > ========================== > Howard: > As I think about it, I find the 1st three of these problematical > in a way: > > 1)What of a (present or future) paccekabuddha? Do the 1st three > apply? Of course, if you yourself are the Awakened One, (1) and (3) obviously doesn't apply. But (2) definitely applies. > 2) Also, cannot a stream enterer incur results of kamma or other > conditions that would cause a coma during some life, or could not > a stream entrant have a birth on some occasion in a consciousness- > less state? In either case, again, do the 1st three apply? But at least Prince Siddartha was not in coma or born in a consciousness-less state! Well, I don't have the knowledge to answer you these profound questions! > Certainly, though, a disciple of a buddha or a student of his > extant teachings will, upon stream entry, experience a joyous > confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels, and I assume > that is what is implied by this standard formulation. Unwavering Confidence means Unwavering Confidence! Well, if you want to interpret in another way, I am not going to stop you! Regards, Swee Boon 49858 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 nidive Hi Phil, One thing I don't really like to read your posts is that it is too long and the contents are too diffused so much so I have no concrete point to talk about. There are others whose post I usually don't bother to read. Sukin's posts are a no-no. Sometimes, Nina also write very diffused postings. Sorry for not replying to what you posted. Regards, Swee Boon 49859 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/8/05 10:47:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Certainly, though, a disciple of a buddha or a student of his > extant teachings will, upon stream entry, experience a joyous > confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels, and I assume > that is what is implied by this standard formulation. Unwavering Confidence means Unwavering Confidence! Well, if you want to interpret in another way, I am not going to stop you! ========================= I don't follow you. I'm not interpreting it in another way! There was no implication intended in not using the word 'unwavering', if that is what you had in mind. The saddha is *of course* unwavering! My intention was only to add the words 'joyous' and 'gratefulness', both meaningful to me, for indeed the confidence attained by even lesser events than stream entry is accompanied by tremendous joy, and that saddha certainly engenders gratefulness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49860 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 8:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Howard, > I don't follow you. I'm not interpreting it in another way! There > was no implication intended in not using the word 'unwavering', if > that is what you had in mind. The saddha is *of course* unwavering! Great! > My intention was only to add the words 'joyous' and 'gratefulness', > both meaningful to me, for indeed the confidence attained by even > lesser events than stream entry is accompanied by tremendous joy, > and that saddha certainly engenders gratefulness. Of course! There is joy and there is gratefulness and there is unwavering confidence. Regards, Swee Boon 49861 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 9:08am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 philofillet Hi Swee Boon > > One thing I don't really like to read your posts is that it is too > long and the contents are too diffused so much so I have no concrete > point to talk about. I know what you mean. There is bhavana involved in writing these long posts, working out understanding. Like thinking out loud. Could do it in word and edit it down but I prefer to just let her rip. I usually don't read long posts either, unless they're by Nina, so I know exactly what you mean. But if you have time, could you just explain a little bit more what you mean below? > > Why bother about accumulations that can't be seen, can't be heard, > > can't be smelled, can't be tasted, can't be touched and can't be > known > > except by the Buddha? Are you contrasting accumulations that *can* be seen etc with accumulations that *can't*, or are you saying it is best to disregard accumulations entirely? The sentence isn't clear. Without a comma and "which" instead of "that" after "accumulations" it sounds like you're implying that there are some accumulations that can be seen and tasted etc. I'd never thought of accumulations being rupa, though I have read a sutta in which it is said that lobha and dosa "mark" objects in a way that accumulates. Thanks in advance for any feedback on the above question, if you'd like. If not, not to worry. And I'll try to be brief if I send anything your way again. Phil ps my other main point was that if you think there can be a "accumulations-o-meter" or whatever it was, you need to reflect on the adze handle simile. If you don't think there could be such a thing, I wonder why you would ask? 49862 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee - You asked : > > Would a sotapanna accept Alara Kalama as his teacher and go forth > under him? > Would a sotapanna accept Uddaka Ramaputta as his teacher and go forth under him? Tep: Your questions are not applicable since the two teachers were not even ariyan. So we should depend on the basic concept of Sotapanna as one who enters the Stream. In the same post of mine at the end I examined this requirement. Did you read the message through to the end? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > Essentially, you both do not believe that Prince Saddartha in the > > autobiography told by the Buddha in MN 36 (Mahasaccaka Sutta) was > > already "at least a Sotapanna". > > A sotapanna is endowed with four qualities: > > (1) unwavering confidence in the Awakened One > (2) unwavering confidence in the Dhamma > (3) unwavering confidence in the Sangha > (4) virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, > unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, > leading to concentration > > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-030.html > > Regards, > Swee Boon 49863 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 9:41am Subject: Re: an introduction and a question buddhatrue Hi Hal, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > Thanks for your reply. As I said, I'm not very interested in > discussing Buddhagosa or speculating about his attainments or lack > there of. Having said that, your comments leave me puzzled. On the > one hand you say he is a mere "puthujjana" and on the other hand you > say "he truly represent(s) what The Buddha preached". How is this > possible? I don't see how it is possible for anyone who is a mere > worldling to avoid _misrepresnting_what the Buddha preached. If > Buddhagosa's had not attainded a higher understanding and had only a > scholastic knowledge of the Buddha's teaching, the third section of > his commentary would be riddled with the taint of wrong view. He > could not have represented the supreme understanding that the Buddha > preached. > > Hal You make two assumptions: One- that it takes more than a wordling to represent what the Buddha taught (it might just take a good scholar); Two- the third section of the Vism. is without flaws (it might be very flawed...how would you know if/since you are just a wordling?) Metta, James 49864 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 9:49am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > > Dhamma is not like that. There is no discrimination. If we believe > > The Buddha is an omipotent without knowing actual dhamma this may > > also be wrong view. > > There is no discrimination between religions, race, sex or anything. > > Dhamma is dhamma. > > I think you are disturbed by my declaration: > > "But his belief in an omnipotent God is a demeritorious act." > > I say that it is a demeritorious act because it is wrong view; there > is no such thing as an omnipotent God. > > But you are right that Dhamma does not discriminate between religions, > race, sex or whatever. > > Regards, > Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your message. I was not disturbed. The idea of God is totally wrong view. But when offering there is no such view. When there is such view there is no actual offering even though he or she may give things to receiver. I was just talking on dhammas that arise. The origin of this discussion is mixture of akusala and kusala. You gave the example that someone who has a belief in God is offering. There are many dhammas that seem to be a mixture of akusala and kusala. But akusala and kusala do not even arise in the same procession of cittas. Dhamma are 1. akusala 2. kusala 3. abyakata 1. kusala is profitable. 2. akusala is unprofitable. 3. abyakata are dhamma that are done (kata) but are not of both (bya_both and a-not of). So abyakata is not akusala and not kusala. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49865 From: "frank" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 10:39am Subject: dhamma soup for confidence dhamma_service Kankharevata (Thag I.3) {v. 3} [go to top] See this: the discernment of the Tathagatas, like a fire ablaze in the night, giving light, giving eyes, to those who come, subduing their doubt. 49866 From: "Hal" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 10:47am Subject: Re: an introduction and a question bardosein Hi James, I don't believe I was making the second assumption, but rather I was basing my comments on Htoo Naing's remarks that he "Buddhagosa truly represents what the Buddha preached". Hence, on this view it would follow that the third section could not be flawed. You are right to point out that I surely don't know this, as I haven't studied the Vissudhimagga in any depth yet. However, hopefully some understanding will arise as I begin to study with this fine group. I don't think I made the first assumption either, however. On this point, I'm sure a scholar monk could represent the Bhuddha's teaching (that is, convey what he said accurately). A king's fool can utter wise things. But the fool does not understand the wise things he has said; he cannot represent the understanding of what he has said. In the same way, I do not think a worldling can represent the Buddha's understanding, since that is exclusively the domain of his noble disciples. That is why I said, a worldling "could not have represented *the supreme understanding* that the Buddha preached". Having said this, I'm also sure we aren't finished here deconstructing all my assumptions. Go easy on me though, I'm new here.... Hal > Hal > > You make two assumptions: One- that it takes more than a wordling to > represent what the Buddha taught (it might just take a good > scholar); Two- the third section of the Vism. is without flaws (it > might be very flawed...how would you know if/since you are just a > wordling?) > > Metta, > James 49867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190 and Tiika nilovg Dear Htoo, thank you for your post. I just select a few points. op 08-09-2005 13:27 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be > experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just > fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Now there is no longer any object. And there is no longer any sense- > base. I mean the ones that existed just before they passed away. > > But the characters of object are passed over and these arise as > dhamma-arammana or mind-object and it is sensed or experienced > through the mind-door. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- N: The mind-door process of cittas immediately after a sense-door process do not experience a mind object, they experience the visible object, sound, etc. although it has just fallen away. The mind-door process falls into the stream of the sense-door process in that case(this is in Atthasaalini). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We read in the Dispeller of Delusion (p. 8): > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Dear Nina, what is Dispeller of Delusion? What is Pali word for > that? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- N: Sammohavinodani, atthakata to Vibhanga. Sorry, I understand that the English titles are confusing. Like Gradual Sayings: Anguttara Nikaya. ---------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > It seems that cittas last, but the meaning of kha.na, moment, reminds > us of the impermanence of dhammas. As soon as a dhamma has arisen, it > is going towards its cessation, it is gone immediately. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Actually kha.na is not time. Kha.na is manifestation of > impermanence. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- N: Kha.na is in this text time according to the Tiika. But certainly it manifests impermanence. I quote the tiika: Addhaadivasena hi a~n~neva dhammaa atiitaa a~n~ne anaagataa a~n~ne paccuppannaa labbhanti, kha.naadivasena pana natthi dhammato bhedo, kaalato eva bhedo. /with reference to kha.na tec. /however/ there is not the classification according to dhamma/only to time (kaala). . > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Pannaa works along with sannaa. Sannaa also accumulates. ------ N: You are perhaps thinking of anattasaññaa, etc. It is remembrance together with sati. But as to green, I cannot follow that this is a connection with paññaa. Paññaa penetrates the true nature of paramattha dhammas, and the noble Truths. No need to answer, you mean perhaps another aspect. You understand, because you explain about all the enlightenment factors that develop so that lokuttara pañña can arise. > Summarizing the four aspects according to which ruupa can be seen as > past, future and present: according to > > (a) extent (addhaa), > (b) continuity (santati), > (c) period (samaya) and > (d) moment (kha.na). > > Thus, the first three are figurative and the last one is literal. > ****** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Thanks Nina. Can you explain this last part from 'Summarizing > the ...' to '...is literal'? N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is nippariyaaya (literal). The last one is in the ultimate sense only. There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan, this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na. We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death, kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body. it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be object of insight. As to samaya, we read: Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its function. Nina. 49868 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] an introduction and a question nilovg Hi Hal, I forgot to mention that both English translations of Vis. are not on line. Larry types out all texts of Nanamoli that we use, and Connie types out chapter after chapter of Maung Tin. Nina. op 08-09-2005 13:30 schreef Hal op bardosein@...: > I will take a look. I just read your interesting comments on kha.na. > Thanks. 49869 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 11:29am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia 2. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 11:51am Subject: Re: an introduction and a question buddhatrue Hi Hal, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi James, > > I don't believe I was making the second assumption, but rather I was > basing my comments on Htoo Naing's remarks that he "Buddhagosa truly > represents what the Buddha preached". Hence, on this view it would > follow that the third section could not be flawed. You are right to > point out that I surely don't know this, as I haven't studied the > Vissudhimagga in any depth yet. However, hopefully some understanding > will arise as I begin to study with this fine group. > > I don't think I made the first assumption either, however. On this > point, I'm sure a scholar monk could represent the Bhuddha's teaching > (that is, convey what he said accurately). A king's fool can utter > wise things. But the fool does not understand the wise things he has > said; he cannot represent the understanding of what he has said. In > the same way, I do not think a worldling can represent the Buddha's > understanding, since that is exclusively the domain of his noble > disciples. That is why I said, a worldling "could not have > represented *the supreme understanding* that the Buddha preached". > Having said this, I'm also sure we aren't finished here > deconstructing all my assumptions. Go easy on me though, I'm new > here.... > > Hal Just giving you some things to consider, not trying to imply anthing. I don't know either and you raise some good points. I will go easy on you though and I'm glad you joined the group :-). But please, not too much fawning praise of Buddhaghosa or I will get a rash! ;-)) (he isn't one of my favorite ancients). Metta, James 49871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) nilovg Hi Phil, op 08-09-2005 16:36 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > This is very interesting. Things get subtler. "Enamored" doesn't > sound like something that would happen with respect to a visible > object at the eye door, but it is good for me to be able to reflect > on that from now on when I read those suttas. > > Or is it referring to objects that have fallen away at the eye > door and rearisen in mind door processes, where the "lust" > and "enamored" take place? I hope that's a clear question. ------ N: Yes, correct. Once this was discussed with the late Ven. Dhammadharo (remember Azita?) He explained that in the sutta the details of the processes are not mentioned. It seems from the sutta text that there is already enjoyment with seeing, but this is said because not all details are mentioned. People at that time did not misunderstand. Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, it is vipaakacitta. Lobha can arise during javanas in the eyedoor process, but these do not motivate akusala kamma patha. Nina. 49872 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 0:35pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin...) A Cutting-through Evaluation buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee (Attn. James, Howard, Mike) - Your following post to Phil is very straightforward and cutting through. This kind of evaluation is powerful and could be very useful, depending on whom you evaluated. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > One thing I don't really like to read your posts is that it is too > long and the contents are too diffused so much so I have no concrete > point to talk about. > > There are others whose post I usually don't bother to read. Sukin's > posts are a no-no. Sometimes, Nina also write very diffused postings. > > Sorry for not replying to what you posted. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Tep: I am interested to hear your straight-from-the-heart evaluation of my posts too ! James, Howard and Mike may say: "Tep, you are asking for a trouble" (somewhat like sticking a finger into a powerful fan). But I want to know it, very badly. I might learn something useful for self improvement. Warm regards, Tep ======= 49873 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Howard (and Swee) - What a refreshing reply you made ! With this solid logical reasoning power, I bet you are also good at computer programming. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 9/8/05 9:36:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@y... > writes: > A sotapanna is endowed with four qualities: > > (1) unwavering confidence in the Awakened One > (2) unwavering confidence in the Dhamma > (3) unwavering confidence in the Sangha > (4) virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, > unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, > leading to concentration > ========================== > Howard: As I think about it, I find the 1st three of these problematical in a way: > > 1)What of a (present or future) paccekabuddha? Do the 1st three apply? > > 2) Also, cannot a stream enterer incur results of kamma or other > conditions that would cause a coma during some life, or could not a stream entrant have a birth on some occasion in a consciousness- less state? In either case, again, do the 1st three apply? > Tep: I think the 1st three Sotapatti factors are good only for giving the initial impetus to turn the person to Buddhism. In case of a paccekabuddha s/he got that momentum in one of the prior lives. In case of the unfortunate person who had satisfied the three factors and became unconscious later, he again has got the momentum to continue moving on the Path. Don't you think so? > Howard: > Certainly, though, a disciple of a buddha or a student of his extant > teachings will, upon stream entry, experience a joyous confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels, and I assume that is what is implied by this standard formulation. > Tep: It is true that "upon stream entry" s/he will "experience a joyous confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels" more than that initial stage I mentioned above. But the Sotapatti factors are more like qualifying qualifications prior to the stream entry, rather than the consequence. Regards, Tep ======== 49874 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Tep's Qus for A.Sujin (was:Re: Cambodian ..) Let me ask Swee buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee and Sarah - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep & Sarah, > > > On a second thought, I think I should ask Swee for permission if > > he'd allow his questions be submitted by someone else to A. Sujin. > > It sounds a little complicated, but it is more appropriate to ask > > Swee first. Swee, what do you think about all this? Do you want to do it yourself? > > Actually, I have no intention to ask Khun Sujin. > > But since Tep wants it, go ahead then. I have no objections. > > Regards, > Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------- Thank you, Swee, for the clear answer. Dear Sarah , I have studied all the posts that came afterwards and found them useful enough without asking A. Sujin for her answer. Thank you for your kind offer, Sarah. Respectfully, Tep ======== 49875 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - >see later today, hopefully! >toodles, >colette I was off-line for two days, so I was unable to reply to you sooner. The introductory part of your last message left a few things for me to ponder. The man who did not read or write seemed to be able to concentrate deeper and longer than normal people - was that a nature way to compensate him with, or did he train himself to be so? Is being emotionless something that's always admirable to normal people? > T: Shall we peacefully discuss the middle-way approach of the Buddha without branching out too much? colette: is that shades of my own humor or what? (rhetorical question) T: Seriously, I mean branching out from the middle path into an uncountable number of surrounding issues. But life is too short. --------------- > T: Why is the middle position eddy and static? ...Shall we peacefully >discuss... colette: your said it didn't you, by means of my terms eddy and static you visualized the term "peacefully". that is the simple answer in as few words as possible. T: Indeed, the middle way is always peaceful. However, I used "peacefully" in that sentence because you wrote "Shall we parley?". ---------------- colette: I know somebody will consider my terms of "the path" and attempt to view the Magga Sutta "the path" in the same light yet it won't work since I need to elaborate. T: I love that, I love that ! So, let's continue our peaceful conference whenever you are ready. Yours truly, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Good Morning Tep, > (snipped) > > colette: your said it didn't you, by means of my terms eddy and > static you visualized the term "peacefully". > that is the simple answer in as few words as possible. Later today I > believe I will have greater time to elaborate on this topic since > this is a VERY IMPORTANT step on the path. I know somebody will > consider my terms of "the path" and attempt to view the Magga > Sutta "the path" in the same light yet it won't work since I need to > elaborate. > > see later today, hopefully! > > toodles, > colette 49876 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:19pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhistmedi... Hi, RobertK - I knew that sooner or later you'd respond. I must admit that nowadays your replies are getting closer to being "self-less" more than ever. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Tep, > Ayuhana is explained in the Mahavagga tika > (subcommentary) to the Digha nikaya (I add some more to > Nyantiloka's excellent explanation): > Aayuuhana.m sampi.n.dana.m, sampayuttadhammaana.m attano > kiccaanuruupataaya raasiikara.nanti attho. > Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of > its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function. (based on a note by bodhi) sampi.n.dana.m -adding together > rasi - heap kicca -function > > Accumulating(ayuhana) is happening right now - the accumulating of > understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya > (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for > more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are > enough conditions for deep insight to arise. Not by self or wanting > or freewill but by the right conditions. > > It certainly can last more than one life. Why would you doubt that? > Tep: The process or "mechanism" that performs the accumulation function is easily seen as just a conditioned dhamma -- there is nothing else like a permanent soul, or a God, behind it. But, it has been the way you expressed your view about "panna accumulation" that has caused a doubt. Your view indicates that it "certainly can last more than one life" and that the accumulation is perfect (no loss, no change, 100% in 100% out). This view implies a self that maintains the perfection and lastingness. Regards, Tep ======== 49877 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your feedback. > Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, it is vipaakacitta. Lobha can > arise during javanas in the eyedoor process, but these do not motivate > akusala kamma patha. I have trouble understanding this point. If in the eyedoor process there is only visible object, how can there be lobha? I could understand thorugh the body sense door, where there cannot be indifferent feeling. I remember you gave the example somewere of a baby seeing a balloon, and liking it without knowing what it is. But even in that case, there have been mental door process, the visible object has been processed in some way, I would have thought. The baby doeesn't know it is a balloon, but maybe likes the roundness (reminiscent of its mother's breast perhaps?) and this is through the mind door, I guess. I have been neglecting this sort of topic. Time to reread Abhihdamma in Daily Life, and Rob M's book. Thanks in advance. Phil 49878 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, RobertK - > > I knew that sooner or later you'd respond. > > I must admit that nowadays your replies are getting closer to > being "self-less" more than ever. +++++++ > > > > > > Tep: The process or "mechanism" that performs the accumulation > function is easily seen as just a conditioned dhamma -- there is nothing > else like a permanent soul, or a God, behind it. But, it has been the way > you expressed your view about "panna accumulation" that has caused > a doubt. Your view indicates that it "certainly can last more than one > life" and that the accumulation is perfect (no loss, no change, 100% in > 100% out). This view implies a self that maintains the perfection and > lastingness. > >+++++++++ Dear Tep, I am writing from an internet cafe in Kuala Lumpur at the moment and later today catch a flight to Bangkok. I'll have more time then to respond to the threads on accumulations. I said earlier on this thread: "If one now develops panna it will grow, it one develops wrong ideas then panna will wane. That is why panna is to be valued and attachment (to attaining, to me, to control) is the opposite way to insight." Thus 100% in, 100% out is not the way it is. One obvious example- we forget all the theoretical knowledge, all the words in next life; what is accumulated is only panna at the moment there is understanding. Robertk 49879 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 1:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 9/8/05 6:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Friend Howard (and Swee) - What a refreshing reply you made ! With this solid logical reasoning power, I bet you are also good at computer programming. ------------------------------------------ Howard: :-) Thanks. More the mathematician than a programmer, though I've certainly done some of that as well. ---------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 9/8/05 9:36:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@y... > writes: > A sotapanna is endowed with four qualities: > > (1) unwavering confidence in the Awakened One > (2) unwavering confidence in the Dhamma > (3) unwavering confidence in the Sangha > (4) virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, > unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, > leading to concentration > ========================== > Howard: As I think about it, I find the 1st three of these problematical in a way: > > 1)What of a (present or future) paccekabuddha? Do the 1st three apply? > > 2) Also, cannot a stream enterer incur results of kamma or other > conditions that would cause a coma during some life, or could not a stream entrant have a birth on some occasion in a consciousness- less state? In either case, again, do the 1st three apply? > Tep: I think the 1st three Sotapatti factors are good only for giving the initial impetus to turn the person to Buddhism. In case of a paccekabuddha s/he got that momentum in one of the prior lives. In case of the unfortunate person who had satisfied the three factors and became unconscious later, he again has got the momentum to continue moving on the Path. Don't you think so? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, this makes sense on both counts. ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Certainly, though, a disciple of a buddha or a student of his extant > teachings will, upon stream entry, experience a joyous confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels, and I assume that is what is implied by this standard formulation. > Tep: It is true that "upon stream entry" s/he will "experience a joyous confidence in and gratefulness to the three jewels" more than that initial stage I mentioned above. But the Sotapatti factors are more like qualifying qualifications prior to the stream entry, rather than the consequence. ------------------------------------------ Howard: You may well have found the solution to my "problem"! :-) Good work! ----------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49880 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: an introduction and a question rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Now for my first question: > > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. Doesn't > Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained > his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has > not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar > monk? I'm not interested in evaluating Buddhagosa's attainments. > However, it is hard to believe that anyone who still retained > Brahmanistic beliefs would be able to offer such insightful comments, > particularly in the third section of his commentary. This leads me > to suspect Buddhadasa's rather bold critique of Bugghagosa as well as > Buddhadasa's interpretation of dependent origination. I would be > much obliged if someone could direct me to a helpful > response/critique of his comments about this all important concept. > +++++++++ Dear Hal I wrote something about this. Here is one post, if you are interested I can find some more. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20495 Robertk 49881 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 6:01pm Subject: Free Books for Cost of Shipping mlnease Hello DSG, I have about fifty pounds (roughly) of Buddhist books in need of a new home, mostly Paali texts from PTS. I can't store them or ship them so anyone who can afford freight from the northwest U.S to wherever is welcome to them. I hope to dispose of these as quickly as possible so I hope they may all go to the same recipient. There is a post office here so they can be mailed in reasonable increments. As some of the most valuable were gifts from dsg members, I hope that dsg might benefit from them in some way. Please reply off-list to mlnease@.... Thanks in advance and best wishes. mn M. Nease 28650 N. Hwy. 101 P.O. Box 202 Lilliwaup, WA 98555 (360) 877-6077 49882 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Books mlnease Hi, I have a taker for the books. Thanks for your attention. mike 49883 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 8:34pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia 2. philofillet Hi Nina and all >>> There are three kinds of dukkha: dukkha-dukkha (intrinsic suffering), viparinåma dukkha (suffering in change) and sankhåra-dukkha (suffering inherent in conditioned realities). Very interesting. In one of the recorded talks, Azita asks "why is anicca dukkha" and I had wondered the same thing. If panna is developed to understand that all our problems can be reduced to conditioned nama and rupa, why do we suffer from change? Of course, the point is that panna is *not* developed to that degree, and will not be in this lifetime (safe to say) so anicca is dukkha. No need to respond, Nina. Just a thought. Phil 49884 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 7:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma... Yeap... I just happen to find this site and when I click on it... my mail box recently become fill with mails... but this topic seem to have interest in me.... hahaha First thing first... let talk a little more about Right View and since dana has been brought up as an example, let use dana as a further explaination and discussion. Right View, like I say are based on 3 things and one of them is Dana or offering. Dana is also one of the perfection (the first in fact). Thus Dana is also a kusala action. However Dana is a double sword. One can do dana to keep go into samsara (rooted with greed, hatred, delusion) or out of samsara. The idea of non-discremination is one of the practices of dana (or should I say a practice of non-attachment) to get out of samsara but we need to have some wisdom to do it well. So coming back to Right View based on Offering.... One of the example I can give is dana is kusala no matter how big or how small it is. Some people have the view that "what can my one cents do when some org is asking for a donation of a very big project?" One cent of dana is also dana. No matter how big or how small the offering, it is an offering and that is consider dana. So if you have the view of "no need to give" as it is too small, then it is already wrong view. However, there is also another statement in Right View based on offering that explain, the size of the dana also determine the size of the kusala kamma. Some people has the view that, it doesn't matter how much I give as long as I give and the results is the same. This is again wrong view. There will NEVER be the same as the size of the dana is different. The bigger will always be a bigger kusala (if all other parameter are fixed - you know like prompted or unprompted, pleasant or unpleasant etc. stuff like that). I hope this give some explaination why wrong view can be associate with doing kusala kamma. Now, let talk a little on dana and wisdom and since abhidhamma is brought up, let explain in abhidhamma. We know that there are 52 cetasikas or mental properties. And if you know cetasika, they are also condition dhammas which means they arises by themself (in a group or more) if the condition(s) is right and beyond our control (non-self). However those 52 cetasikas consist of universal cetasika, particular cetasika, akusala cetasika, kusala cetasika and many more. The classification is in the way that panna is one of the cetasika that do NOT group with the rest. It stand alone. If an kusala action is done, it does NOT means that wisdom cetasika is in that action. 19 Beautiful Cetasika (all good-group as kusala) arises in one time but panna is NOT in that group. So panna do not neccessary associate with any good action. That's why it is important to know the reason why we do dana. If you know the reason, then you can condition panna to arise and we can bring this to next life or future and continue doing the same good action. And if you are practicing non-discremination type of dana (which is good and most probably right), you also need wisdom and knowing the reason why you do such action is very important. Seem like we have been talking more about dana rather than Right View but Right View also cover offering....hahaha metta mr39515 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ng Boon, > I think I did not see you before, welcome. > You reminded me of an important aspect of daana and > paññaa. > Kh Sujin mentioned this in her Perfections, it helps > us to understand daana > as a perfection. I quote: > perfection of generosity. > The Book of Analysis (the second Book of the > Abhidhamma), in Ch 16, > Classification of Knowledge, 325) explains about > different kinds of paññå, > such as wisdom by means of thinking, wisdom by means > of hearing, wisdom by > means of giving, wisdom by means of síla 6. We read > about wisdom by means of > giving (dånamayå paññå): > > ³...Concerning giving, the achieving of giving, that > which arises is wisdom, > understanding...² > > The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the > Book of Analysis, in Ch > 16, 412) explains that understanding associated with > the intention or > volition (cetanå) of giving is ³understanding based > on giving² or > ³understanding by means of giving² (dånamayå paññå). <....> 49885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Cetasikas' study corner 264- Attachment/lobha (q) nilovg Hi Phil, op 09-09-2005 01:29 schreef Philip op philco777@...:> >> Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, it is vipaakacitta. > Lobha can >> arise during javanas in the eyedoor process, but these do not motivate >> akusala kamma patha. --------- > I have trouble understanding this point. If in the eyedoor process > there is only visible object, how can there be lobha? I could > understand thorugh the body sense door, where there cannot be > indifferent feeling. > > I remember you gave the example somewere of a baby seeing a balloon, > and liking it without knowing what it is. ------- N: In the eyedoor process there is seeing, then two more moments of vipaakacitta (receiving, investigating) and then there is the votthapana-citta, determining-consciosness, which 'determines' whether it will be followed by kusala cittas or akusala cittas, and this is according to accumulated inclinations, conditions work their way. Nobody can alter the order of cittas, they follow a fixed order, this is citta niyaama. It is a kind of law. The votthapana-citta knows what to do, it performs its function before 'you' could realize it, and then lobha-muulacittas may follow. This shows how anattaa it is. After that the visible object is experienced in a mind-door process and the javana-cittas are similar to those that arose just before in the eye-door process. After that there are other mind-door processes during which the object is defined, etc. and there is thinking on account of what was experienced through the eye-door. Nina. The balloon example is only an example, it is coarse. Just a way of comparing to clarify things. But even in that case, there > have been mental door process, the visible object has been processed in > some way, I would have thought. The baby doeesn't know it is a balloon, > but maybe likes the roundness (reminiscent of its mother's breast > perhaps?) and this is through the mind door, I guess. > > I have been neglecting this sort of topic. Time to reread Abhihdamma > in Daily Life, and Rob M's book. Thanks in advance. > > Phil 49886 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I would like to use this part of your reply as starting point for some more general comments and explanation. S:> > Do you by any chance think that the arising of Satipatthana during > driving is going to have any negative consequence? I think that the > conscious attempt to be mindful not only during driving but also in > the quiet of the meditation retreat to be really off!! Conditioned > satipatthana can never be harmful. > ================================== > Htoo: > Good! Great! Get to the point. I do satipatthaana. When I wake up, > get out of bed, going to the toilet, washing hand, doing personal > hygiene, having breakfast, preparing for work, driving, parking, > speaking, and anything. But as it is very very sparse it would take > more than 7 asancheyya-s. Ha ha ha ha. Because I have not accumulated > well enough. > > But if someone follow through satipatthaana there is no reason to > attain at least anagaami magga naana. Here your *accumulation* might > speak whether one can follow exactly or not. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I know your description is just a short response to my own comment. But I hope you don't mind me using it as an example of how I now perceive and understand another's statement. You can then let me know what I missed. "I do satipatthana", this is hard for me not to see as involving `self', i.e. one of the three papanca dhammas. So with what follows; "When I wake up, get out of bed, going to the toilet, washing hand……." It is one thing to talk about one's conventional activities, there may not necessarily be any ditthi involved, however when one is talking about dhamma practice using the same kind of expressions, then I think self- view is there. I therefore question any claim to experiencing satipatthana, even though you say, "But as it is very very sparse…." Am I confident of my assessment? No, I am not. But there are many other signs and details with regard to statements made elsewhere, which leads me to more or less the same conclusion. Also I like to consider the concept of the three rounds, saccannana, kiccannana and katannana, (I wonder if this is discussed much in the Burmese tradition?). Saccannana is a level of understanding which is firm about the 4 Noble Truths. This is an intellectual level, but built upon a good degree of satipatthana, not just ordinary pariyatti. Kiccannana is the actual patipatti when the understanding has a paramattha dhamma as object. Katannana is same as pativedha. My interest is particularly with saccannana, and what I believe it involves is that experiences more and more act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for wise reflection and to not be driven too far away by papanca. The confidence grows about the moment being the only real and worthy object of study; as a result satipatthana arises more often. This is a natural consequence of the development of wisdom and not conditioned by any decision to be mindful regardless. Such a person will not think about "doing" satipatthana, but may instead have satipatthana of "thinking" whatever the object of that is. Do you see the difference? Now I bring in other points to comment on. "Doing" and "Conventional Person" You asked what I meant by this. `Doing' is an idea based on situation and self. As I said above, it is fine to think in terms of conventional situations and persons. But when there is an intention to "do" something, e.g. sitting down to meditate, quiet time, retreat etc. with the idea that "realities" will better be understood then, it is a result of wrong understanding. Better know that there is no understanding "now", than to believe a story about a better time, place and posture. ---------------------------------------------- "Descriptive/Prescriptive" Given that the Buddha spoke in response to particular audience and knowing the complexity of individual accumulations, do you think it wise to imitate? When we hear Dhamma, panna arises and falls away immediately and there is no control over the level of understanding. The level of understanding which arose in the Buddha's audience would be enough to condition other kusala dhammas with panna or enlightenment even, but for us it would only be pariyatti at varying levels, if not a misunderstanding altogether. Should we be quick to think that the same words apply to us in the same way and be driven to certain outward actions? Should we not be humble and truthful to our own level of understanding and view the teachings as descriptive rather than prescriptive? ------------------------------ "Pariyatti, Patipatti and Pativedha" Pativedha is realization of the Noble Truths. Patipatti is satipatthana. This is not a reference to any `conventional doing', but to the actual arising of the dhamma with panna. Pariyatti is a level of correct understanding with `concept' as object. This can range from a correct intellectual understanding of the worldling about dhammas arising now in daily life, to the level of the Buddha when he is teaching his disciples. The reference in all these cases is primarily to `panna cetasika'. --------------------------------- "Culapanthaka" 1. As you will agree (or not ;-)), Culapanthaka had great accumulation of panna. 2. He was in presence of the Buddha who knew his accumulations and could instruct him accordingly. 3. Conditions for Saddha towards the Buddha is more well founded. 4. While he was what we might conventionally regard as being "unintelligent", there was no indication of him having "wrong view", which is the one hindrance to following the Path. So do you think Htoo, that bringing Culapanthaka as example to justify "following a teacher" is right? Today both student and teacher are more likely to have wrong view; does "saddha" have any place in such a situation? --------------------------------- "Not attaining as being someone's "fault"" There are only conditions and no one has any control over dhammas. Even if one misunderstands the Teachings and accordingly practices wrongly, it is not the question of "fault", but more a matter of wrong conditions. Besides, even if someone understood rightly on the intellectual level, other conditions may be lacking and there won't be any attainment. In other cases, however, there may still be a good "development" of panna. Or there might be conditions for other forms of kusala to arise more often. Would you consider this a fault? I think maybe you understand rightly but only need to use different expression? Or maybe I need to not get too hung up on the expression `fault'? ;-) I better end here otherwise soon no one is going to read my posts. Metta, Sukinder 49887 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 3:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 534 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) The last in these stocks is the stock of path-factor or 'atthangika magga' or '8 maggangas'. There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'path-factor of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'path-factor of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'path-factor of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'path-factor of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'path-factor of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'path-factor of right concentration' (ekaggataa) 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' The Buddha said 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-ditthi? (What is samma- ditthi?). And then continued. 'Ya.m kho bhikkhave dukkhe ~naana.m, dukkha samudaye ~naana.m, dukkha nirodhe ~naana.m, dukkha nirodha gaaminiiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naana.m, aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-ditthi'. Ya.m kho ~naana.m = that knowledge bhikkhave = O! Monks dukkhe = as dukkha or as suffering dukkha samudaye = as the origination of suffering dukkha nirodhe = as the cessation of suffering dukkhe nirodha gaaminiiyaa pa.tipadaaya = as the Path leading to cessation of suffering Aya.m = all these vuccati = to be called samma-ditthi = right view 'O! Monks. The knowledge of suffering as suffering, the knowledge of the origination of suffering as origination, the knowledge of cessation of suffering as cessation and the knowledge of the Path leading to cessation of suffering as the Path are all to be called as 'right view'. This knowledge is the job of panna or wisdom cetasika. Panna can arise in naana-sampayutta cittas. But not all pannaa are path-factor. But when the path-knowledge is just going to arise the knowledge arises and realizes that suffering as suffering, the cause as the case and cessation of suffering as cessation and realise the Path as the Path. Path factor with full power only arise at the time of magga cittas arise or phala cittas arise. Otherwise all other pannaa that seem working as samma-ditthi are not as prefected as samma-ditthi of lokuttara cittas. So when magga and phala cittas cannot still arise, those right view are all called lokiya samma-ditthi or mundane right view. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49888 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 3:51am Subject: Links to audio recordings of Dhamma topics christine_fo... Hello all, This thread is to collect links to Sound files, audio recordings of Dhamma subjects in the Theravada Tradition. English Language Only: Audiodharma - hundreds of dhamma talks - listen on line or download: http://www.audiodharma.org/ Audiodharma - over thirty vipassanaa teachers: http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-vipassana.html Bodhi Monastery - (some audio archives of the Majhima Nikaya class given by Bhikku Bodhi) http://www.bodhimonastery.net/mntalks_audio.html Buddhanet Audio - This is a mixed collection of Audio Dharma talks by Buddhist teachers of various traditions. http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-talks.htm Buddhanet Audio - meditations, including guided meditations http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-meditation.htm Buddhanet Audio - Metta chant, songs for children, mantras, temple sounds, insight, lovingkindness http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-library.htm Buddhanet Audio - Buddhist Songs http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-songs.htm Buddhist Society of Western Australia (including Ajahn Brahmavamso) http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/ Dhamma talks in Thai Forest Tradition: http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/index2.htm Meditation and chanting onlline http://www.watpa.iirt.net/medit.html Sadhu! dhamma talks http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?cid=151 Sutta Study Class - Ajahn Brahmavamso and other Monks http://www.bswa.org/audio/sutta_study/sutta_class.php Talks by Leigh Brasington (RIght View; Jhanas) http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/LeighBrasington.html Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.mettaforest.org/Audio%20Dhamma.htm Vipassanaa Fellowship http://vipassana.com/audio_files/ ===================================================== Chanting - making the effort to learn chanting has a healthy strengthening effect on the mind; it develops concentration, patience and determination. http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/monastic/chant-1.htm http://www.forestmeditation.net/audio/audio.html Parittas - protective chants http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Paritta/paritta.html Saadhu! - chanting and songs http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?cid=150 Buddhanet chanting - all traditions http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm ==================================================== Languages other than English: In English, Burmese, Myanmar http://www.edhamma.com/index.htm Dhamma talks by Sayadaws, Sayalay in English and/or Burmese: http://www.dhammadownload.com/AudioInEnglish.htm In Cambodian, Khmer - Dhamma Talks (including Somdech Preah Maha Gosananda - The Ghandhi Cambodians ) http://www.cambodianview.com/dhammalink1.html Audio files in English Sri Lankan http://www.beyondthenet.net/AUDIO/Audio_Main.asp with metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49889 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 3:06am Subject: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Which things can enable the realization of Stream-Entry? Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made much of leads to the realization of the fruit of Stream-Entry (sottapatti-phala)! Which four ? Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly great men. Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... These 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of Once-Return (anagami-phala)! These 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of Never-Return (sakadagami-phala)! These 4 states, when developed & made much of leads to the fruition of Arahat-ship, Awakening, final Enlightenment (arahatta-phala)! Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made much of leads directly to the reaching, attaining & realizing of Understanding; To the state of Awakening of Understanding; To the state of Wealth of Understanding; To the state of Great Understanding; To the state of Open Understanding; To the state of Wide Understanding; To the state of Profound Understanding; To the state of Deep Understanding; To the state of Unequalled Understanding; To the state of Universal Understanding; To the state of Extensive Understanding; To the state of Quick Understanding; To the state of Instant Understanding; To the state of Light Understanding; To the state of Laughing Understanding; To the state of Discriminative Understanding; To the state of Penetrative Understanding  What four ? Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly great men. Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... So is it verily... It is not otherwise! Comments: Having entered the stream, one have maximum 7 lives to Enlightenment. Stream-Entrants cannot be reborn as animal, ghost, demon nor in the Hells. Once-returners come back here as humans once, and then awakens here. Never-returners never returns to here, but is reborn as high brahma deva. Arahats is not reborn at death, but enters the stilled happiness of Nibbana... Source: The Path of Discrimination XXI The Patisambhidamagga [ii 189] The Essay on Great Understanding. By Venerable Sariputta. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49890 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:08am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 270- Wrong View/di.t.thi (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] Diììhi does not arise with every type of citta. Diììhi is connected with clinging, it arises only with lobha-múla-citta. There are four types of lobha-múla-citta which are accompanied by diììhi (diììhigata-sampayutta), and of these types two are accompanied by pleasant feeling (somanassa) and two by indifferent feeling (upekkhå). They can be “unprompted” (asaòkhårika, not induced by someone else or oneself) or they can be “prompted”(sasaòkhårika, induced by someone else or by oneself)(1). Diììhi which arises with lobha-múla-citta always stands for wrong view, micchå-diììhi. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 4. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49891 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ng Boon Huat wrote: Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma... > Yeap... I just happen to find this site and when I > click on it... my mail box recently become fill with > mails... but this topic seem to have interest in > me.... hahaha > That's why it is important to know the reason why we > do dana. If you know the reason, then you can > condition panna to arise and we can bring this to next > life or future and continue doing the same good > action. And if you are practicing non-discremination > type of dana (which is good and most probably right), > you also need wisdom and knowing the reason why you do > such action is very important. Seem like we have been talking more about dana rather than Right View but Right View also cover offering....hahaha metta mr39515 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ng Boon Huat (Mr 39515:-)), Very relaxing. I mean your whole message. Well, mental associates or mental factors or mental accompaniments or cetasikas can be put into different groups. Ceto means 'mind, mind-related, mental, consciousness-related'. Ika is suffix and means 'at, in, on, of, inside and so on'. Cetasika ( might be ceto + sa + ika ) means 'those dhammas that associate or accompany ceto or citta'. Sa means 'with' 'associate' 'accompany'. There are different groups. a) universal associates (arise with any citta & number is always 7) 1. contact 2. feeling 3. perception 4. volition 5. one-pointedness (fixation-stabilization-stillness) 6. mental-life (support) 7. attention b) particular associates ( maybe absent/ 0 , maybe 6, maybe 5 etc ) 1. initial-application 2. sustained-application 3. effort (unwithdrawal-fuel-energy-driving~force) 4. joy 5. wish (not wanting) 6. decision (determination) ( 0 or absence means 'in pancavinnaana' ) c) unprofitable associates ( maybe absent or maybe in defined number) 1. ignorance 2. shamelessness 3. fearlessness 4. restlessness 5. attachment 6. conceit 7. wrong-view 8. aversion 9. jealousy 10.stinginess 11.worry 12.sloth 13.torpor 14.doubt ( possible alternatives are 0, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ) 0 means when beautiful consciousness arise there is no associates from group c). 4 means the first 4 in moha citta and so on. d) universal beautiful associates ( 0 or 19; only 2 alternatives ) 1. faith (confidence) 2. mindfulness (unforgetfulness in the profitables) 3. moral-shame 4. moral-fear 5. non-attachment 6. non-aversion 7. balance 8. mind-tranquality / 9. mental-tranquility 10.mind-lightness / 11. mental-lightness 12.mind-mouldability/13. mental-mouldability 14.mind-workability /15. mental-mouldability 16.mind-proficiency /17. mental-proficiency 18.mind-uprightness/ 19. mental-uprightness e) beautiful abstinence ( 0, 1 , 3 ; 3 alternatives ) 1. bad-gestural-abstinence (sammaa-kammanta or kaaya-ducarita-viratii) 2. bad-verbal-abstinence (sammaa-vaacaa or vacii-ducarita-viratii) 3. bad-livelihood-abstinence(sammaa-aajiiva or dujiiva-viratii) f) beautiful unlimitables ( 0 or 1 ; two alternatives) 1. compassion 2. sympathetic-joy or altruistic-joy g) beautiful judge ( 0 or 1 ; two alternative ) Even citta or consciousness may be assumed as a kind of mental factor. If so there is another group that is h). a) and h) will be permanent members of the troop called 'consciousness' or 'citta' or 'mind' or 'mentality'. So the troop will be like a) + b) + c) + d) + e) + f) + g) + h) Pancavinnaana cittas or 10 of sense-consciousness will be like a) 7 + b) 0 + c) 0 + e) 0 + f) 0 + g) 0 + h) 1 That is 8 or 7 + 1. a) to h) grouping is my new idea of old texts. These matters are already in tipitaka. But when proficiency is lack there always arise argumentation regarding commentaries. Well, dana is also nothing but combinations of these groups along with other groups of dhamma like different ruupas such as gesture and so on. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49892 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:39am Subject: Re: Links to audio recordings of Dhamma topics htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > This thread is to collect links to Sound files, audio recordings of > Dhamma subjects in the Theravada Tradition. > > English Language Only: > > Audiodharma - hundreds of dhamma talks - listen on line or download: > http://www.audiodharma.org/ > Audiodharma - over thirty vipassanaa teachers: > http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-vipassana.html > > Bodhi Monastery - (some audio archives of the Majhima Nikaya class > given by Bhikku Bodhi) > http://www.bodhimonastery.net/mntalks_audio.html > > Buddhanet Audio - This is a mixed collection of Audio Dharma talks > by Buddhist teachers of various traditions. > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-talks.htm > > Buddhanet Audio - meditations, including guided meditations > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-meditation.htm > > Buddhanet Audio - Metta chant, songs for children, mantras, temple > sounds, insight, lovingkindness > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-library.htm > > Buddhanet Audio - Buddhist Songs > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-songs.htm > > Buddhist Society of Western Australia (including Ajahn Brahmavamso) > http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/ > > Dhamma talks in Thai Forest Tradition: > http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/index2.htm > > Meditation and chanting onlline > http://www.watpa.iirt.net/medit.html > > Sadhu! dhamma talks > http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?cid=151 > > Sutta Study Class - Ajahn Brahmavamso and other Monks > http://www.bswa.org/audio/sutta_study/sutta_class.php > > Talks by Leigh Brasington (RIght View; Jhanas) > http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/LeighBrasington.html > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > http://www.mettaforest.org/Audio%20Dhamma.htm > > Vipassanaa Fellowship > http://vipassana.com/audio_files/ > ===================================================== > Chanting > - making the effort to learn chanting has a healthy strengthening > effect on the mind; it develops concentration, patience and > determination. > http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/monastic/chant-1.htm > http://www.forestmeditation.net/audio/audio.html > > Parittas - protective chants > http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Paritta/paritta.html > > Saadhu! - chanting and songs > http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/modules/mylinks/viewcat.php?cid=150 > > Buddhanet chanting - all traditions > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm > ==================================================== > Languages other than English: > > In English, Burmese, Myanmar > http://www.edhamma.com/index.htm > > Dhamma talks by Sayadaws, Sayalay in English and/or Burmese: > http://www.dhammadownload.com/AudioInEnglish.htm > > In Cambodian, Khmer - Dhamma Talks (including Somdech Preah Maha > Gosananda - The Ghandhi Cambodians ) > http://www.cambodianview.com/dhammalink1.html > > Audio files in English Sri Lankan > http://www.beyondthenet.net/AUDIO/Audio_Main.asp > > with metta, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wonderful! Dear Christine, Wonderful! Thanks for your effort in posting such informative collections of audio sites. Talks are very clear so far I listened. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49893 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:52am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 270- Wrong View/di.t.thi (f) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > > Diììhi does not arise with every type of citta. Diììhi is connected > with clinging, it arises only with lobha-múla-citta. > > There are four types of lobha-múla-citta which are accompanied by diììhi > (diììhigata-sampayutta), and of these types two are accompanied > by pleasant feeling (somanassa) and two by indifferent feeling > (upekkhå). > > They can be "unprompted" (asaòkhårika, not induced by someone else or > oneself) or they can be "prompted"(sasaòkhårika, induced by someone else > or by oneself)(1). > > Diììhi which arises with lobha-múla-citta always stands for wrong view, > micchå-diììhi. > *** > 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 4. > ***** > [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, I have always been thinking about 'ditthi'. Its root word is 'disa' or 'to see' or 'to preach'. Here it is 'to see'. Ditthi is a word derived from 'disa'. Ditthi itself is not bad or good. It is view. But when it is written alone it means 'micchaa- ditthi' as you said. I do not know why? With respect, Htoo Naing PS: This post is clear and nothing to 49894 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 270- Wrong View/di.t.thi (f) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, I'm very behind with my replies....I'm amazed at your output and you recently mentioned you have a job too! Thanks for reading and commenting on these extracts posted. Gradual Sayings is the PTS English translation of Anguttara Nikaya Kindred Sayings " " " Samyuttta Nikaya Dispeller " " " Sammohavinodani What else? --- htootintnaing wrote: > I have always been thinking about 'ditthi'. > > Its root word is 'disa' or 'to see' or 'to preach'. Here it is 'to > see'. Ditthi is a word derived from 'disa'. Ditthi itself is not bad > or good. It is view. But when it is written alone it means 'micchaa- > ditthi' as you said. I do not know why? ... S: I don't know why either, but as you say, on its own, ditthi nearly always refers to wrong views. I'm reading your good discussions with Sukin, KenH and others and particularly appreciate the friendly tone and mutual assistance in all these discussions. Thank you for welcoming new members so nicely too. Metta, Sarah p.s.I'll catch up with DTs and some of our discussions later....I must say I always find it very easy and enjoyable to bring up any points arising with you, Htoo. Why not check out Sukin's, Ken O's and Ken H's pics in the photo albums? Sukin is quite youthful (like you say you are), but also very mature:). Ken O vs Ken H, let's see if I can help: Ken O likes to ask penetrating questions. Ken H likes to give penetrating answers. Yes, they both have keen understanding of Abhidhamma....Ken O is also quite youthful, speaks and walks and writes very fast and is Chinese Singaporean. Ken H is older, speaks and walks and writes slower or more deliberately and is Australian.....very different, but both very wise! One needs to carry a comb round with him and the other hardly does!! =========== 49895 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:12am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Ha ha ha ha. Apology for my amusement. This might be unusual for me to have such amusement. I recently included such emotional expressions. My normal self is just calm and seems to be serious. I feel amused. Because as soon as I see your post I go down to the end straight away and there I saw 'ha ha ha ha..' yes, it is your words that made me laugh. 'I better end here otherwise soon no one is going to read my posts.' After seeing that I just went back to the top again and then I reply here. Please see below for our discussions. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing PS: If I seem to be poking, forgive me for that. I just explore dhamma and not you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, I would like to use this part of your reply as starting point for some more general comments and explanation. S:> > Do you by any chance think that the arising of Satipatthana during > driving is going to have any negative consequence? I think that the > conscious attempt to be mindful not only during driving but also in > the quiet of the meditation retreat to be really off!! Conditioned > satipatthana can never be harmful. ================================== > Htoo: > Good! Great! Get to the point. I do satipatthaana. When I wake up, > get out of bed, going to the toilet, washing hand, doing personal > hygiene, having breakfast, preparing for work, driving, parking, > speaking, and anything. But as it is very very sparse it would take > more than 7 asancheyya-s. Ha ha ha ha. Because I have not > accumulated > well enough. > But if someone follow through satipatthaana there is no reason to > attain at least anagaami magga naana. Here your *accumulation* > might > speak whether one can follow exactly or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I know your description is just a short response to my own comment. But I hope you don't mind me using it as an example of how I now perceive and understand another's statement. You can then let me know what I missed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK, my guru. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: "I do satipatthana", this is hard for me not to see as involving `self', i.e. one of the three papanca dhammas. So with what follows; "When I wake up, get out of bed, going to the toilet, washing hand……." It is one thing to talk about one's conventional activities, there may not necessarily be any ditthi involved, however when one is talking about dhamma practice using the same kind of expressions, then I think self-view is there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, my guru, may I correct here? I did know that you will be talking on these expressions. These are for communication purpose and not 'the programmes of practice' in description. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I therefore question any claim to experiencing satipatthana, even though you say, "But as it is very very sparse…." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I said 7 years and agree with The Buddha. If actual satipatthaana has been arising for 7 years there is no reason to become an anagam or an arahat. But as you said accumulation may matter in such seriousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Am I confident of my assessment? No, I am not. But there are many other signs and details with regard to statements made elsewhere, which leads me to more or less the same conclusion. Also I like to consider the concept of the three rounds, saccannana, kiccannana and katannana, (I wonder if this is discussed much in the Burmese tradition?). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Could you please post this with separate heading? That is sacca, kicca and kata. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: Saccannana is a level of understanding which is firm about the 4 Noble Truths. This is an intellectual level, but built upon a good degree of satipatthana, not just ordinary pariyatti. Kiccannana is the actual patipatti when the understanding has a paramattha dhamma as object. Katannana is same as pativedha. My interest is particularly with saccannana, and what I believe it involves is that experiences more and more act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for wise reflection and to not be driven too far away by papanca. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Oh, well! You explain here. Good. Thanks. But if you can post this again it will be good for all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The confidence grows about the moment being the only real and worthy object of study; as a result satipatthana arises more often. This is a natural consequence of the development of wisdom and not conditioned by any decision to be mindful regardless. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very clear. You are a great person. I say this in my sincerity. Not ironic. As you said I think it is wrong to keep in mind that 'I will be mindful and I am going to develop satipatthana when I wake up, when I get out of bed, when I toilet, when I have breakfast and so on'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Such a person will not think about "doing" satipatthana, but may instead have satipatthana of "thinking" whatever the object of that is. Do you see the difference? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, I can see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Now I bring in other points to comment on. "Doing" and "Conventional Person" You asked what I meant by this. `Doing' is an idea based on situation and self. As I said above, it is fine to think in terms of conventional situations and persons. But when there is an intention to "do" something, e.g. sitting down to meditate, quiet time, retreat etc. with the idea that "realities" will better be understood then, it is a result of wrong understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmmmm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Better know that there is no understanding "now", than to believe a story about a better time, place and posture. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: May I ask you a question? Is it suitable to build a vipassana retreat centre on a busy road, and where neighbouring buildings are discos and brothels with audible sexy voice and exploding noise? You might be right to say 'it is wrong to choose a time and a place to better developing of satipatthaana'. But please answer my question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: "Descriptive/Prescriptive" Given that the Buddha spoke in response to particular audience and knowing the complexity of individual accumulations, do you think it wise to imitate? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha ha ha. Apology. I laugh because I already knew the idea that ramified you. I laugh the word 'imitate'. You seem to be assuming that 'Htoo is thinking in a way that he imitates the great disciples, who have a good accumulation while he does not have any accumulation and developing akusala by 'doing' imitated satipatthaana like 'very slowly walking...' Ha ha ha ha. Sorry. I cannot stop. He he he. Wait. I will be laughing for another 5 minutes. Well this is lobha, lobha, lobha. Lobha makes me laugh. I have been laughing but in my mind, no sound. If you do not believe invent a device to detect that or try to attain abhinnaa such as dibbasota or deva-sota or deva's ear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When we hear Dhamma, panna arises and falls away immediately and there is no control over the level of understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The level of understanding which arose in the Buddha's audience would be enough to condition other kusala dhammas with panna or enlightenment even, but for us it would only be pariyatti at varying levels, if not a misunderstanding altogether. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know your accumulation while I do not know my own accumulation or others. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Should we be quick to think that the same words apply to us in the same way and be driven to certain outward actions? Should we not be humble and truthful to our own level of understanding and view the teachings as descriptive rather than prescriptive? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 2 kinds of people. One is text writer and another is text reader. Text writers has to know everything when he writes while text reader has just to read and understand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: "Pariyatti, Patipatti and Pativedha" Pativedha is realization of the Noble Truths. Patipatti is satipatthana. This is not a reference to any `conventional doing', but to the actual arising of the dhamma with panna. Pariyatti is a level of correct understanding with `concept' as object. This can range from a correct intellectual understanding of the worldling about dhammas arising now in daily life, to the level of the Buddha when he is teaching his disciples. The reference in all these cases is primarily to `panna cetasika'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Very good, guru. Three vows to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: "Culapanthaka" 1. As you will agree (or not ;-)), Culapanthaka had great accumulation of panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In his last life he had blockage of pannaa because of akusala in the past. I think he might have told others to be stupid, ignorant etc. Mahaa-Panthaka did not know his accumulation :-) or his power to penetrate at that time. Mahaa-Panthaka thought his brother was not very intelligent and should be out of bhikkhu-sangha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 2. He was in presence of the Buddha who knew his accumulations and could instruct him accordingly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If Ananda had not included these, we would not know these. After coming back from the rich man's home invitation, bhikkhus were in assembly and talking about the power of Bhagavaa. When Bhagavaa came they became silent. 'O! Monks with which talks are you assembling?' '' Dear Sir, we are talking about the power of Tathagata to help out un-intelligent Cula-Panthaka to become abhi~n~nalaabhii''. Bhagava then retold past story when He helped Cula-Panthaka out by saying just a word like in the current situation, where He instructed to say 'rajo harana.m'. This is 'This dead mouse could become 1 million $ worth'. Cula- Panthaka-to-be implemented and finally became a rich man from a very poor man. The reason of giving white cloth to rub is that once in a life of Culapanthaka-to-be was a peasant. That peasant when ploughing in the field became sweaty and he wiped out with his cloth. The cloth changed from pure to dirty one. Bhagava just saw this and gave him a cloth to rub and say 'rajo harana.m'. Bhagava is always wonderful, marvellous, brilliant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 3. Conditions for Saddha towards the Buddha is more well founded. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is intrinsic. But this again is accumulation-related. Titthi could not have saddhaa when they saw or met The Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: 4. While he was what we might conventionally regard as being "unintelligent", there was no indication of him having "wrong view", which is the one hindrance to following the Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Did you say 'Culapanthaka did not have ditthi before he became an arahat on that day? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So do you think Htoo, that bringing Culapanthaka as example to justify "following a teacher" is right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This will depend on conditions and situations where the matters are taken into consideration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Today both student and teacher are more likely to have wrong view; does "saddha" have any place in such a situation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If one really understand saddhaa there is no way to follow wrong path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: "Not attaining as being someone's "fault"" There are only conditions and no one has any control over dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Utterly true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Even if one misunderstands the Teachings and accordingly practices wrongly, it is not the question of "fault", but more a matter of wrong conditions. Besides, even if someone understood rightly on the intellectual level, other conditions may be lacking and there won't be any attainment. In other cases, however, there may still be a good "development" of panna. Or there might be conditions for other forms of kusala to arise more often. Would you consider this a fault? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You have a good 'insight' into the matter. Good discussions. I do not think our discussions are very long. Even if long they should be paid attention to explore what is what. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think maybe you understand rightly but only need to use different expression? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. I do not know whether I rightly understand Dhamma. But I think I understand Dhamma rightly. Expression-wise I have been trying to express in the most appropriate style or way. If something wrong in my message it may well related to my language usage. Examples; I wrote ebook on 'Patthaana Dhamma', which I frequently advertised. Only Tep gave me a comment that 'that ebook should be read by scholars and ask them what are wrong'. No one except Tep give me any comments. But I am not looking forward to any comments. That ebook is for the welfare of all, who read it. If you have a small interest and read that you can give me comments offl-list. PS: Apology Jon & Sarah. No reason to advertise here again but just communicating with Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Or maybe I need to not get too hung up on the expression `fault'? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually this is good of you, kind of you. Sarah also kindly helps in this matter of expression in indirect way. Sarah, Robert K, you and many others here at DSG are my gurus to be honest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I better end here otherwise soon no one is going to read my posts. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please do not stop me. I can't help laughing again. Ha ha ha ha. Apology. In Myanmar saying there is a sentence. 'Thaung tan za gar - yee yin pot' Thaung = 1000 ( that is 1000 units of money) tan = worth za gar = speech yee = laugh yin = if pot = lessen When seriously discussing 'laughing' will lessen the seriousness. That is why all my old posts are a bit rigid and emotionless except leave taking of 'With Unlimited Metta'. Have a nice week-end. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49896 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Tep, > > Would a sotapanna accept Alara Kalama as his teacher and go forth > > under him? > > Would a sotapanna accept Uddaka Ramaputta as his teacher and > > go forth under him? > Tep: Your questions are not applicable since the two teachers were > not even ariyan. So we should depend on the basic concept of > Sotapanna as one who enters the Stream. In the same post of mine at > the end I examined this requirement. Did you read the message > through to the end? >> >> Now, to prove that Prince Siddartha was an ariya, I simply say >> that since he attained the eighth Path factor, which cannot float >> in the air without the support of the other seven Path factors, >> it is clear that he enterred the Path. One who enters the Path >> is at least a Sotapanna. You might want to read up MN 8 Sallekha Sutta, The Discourse on Effacement. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-008-nt2.html 4. "It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'12 ... Notes: 12. Now the Buddha speaks, on his own, of another type of "self- overrater," i.e., of those who have realized any of the eight meditative attainments (samapatti) and believe that this signifies true "effacement" (sallekha). The common meaning of sallekha* is austere practice or asceticism; but in the Buddha's usage it is the radical "effacing" or removal of the defilements. *[Sallekha (= sam-lekha) is derived from the verbal root likh, to scratch; hence likhati (a) to scratch in, to write; (b) to scratch off, to remove: samlikhati, "to remove fully." An interesting parallel is "ascesis," derived from the Greek askeuein, to scratch. The rendering by "effacement" is Ñanamoli Thera's; Soma Thera has "cancelling"; I. B. Horner, "expunging."] The eight stages of meditation given here in the discourse, consist of the four fine-material absorptions (rupajjhana) and the four immaterial absorptions (arupajjhana). Comy. says that these meditative attainments "are in common with the ascetics outside (the Buddha's Dispensation)." Comy.: "The overrater's meditative absorption is neither 'effacement' nor is it the 'path of practice for effacement' (sallekha-patipada). And why not? Because that jhana is not used by him as a basis for insight; that is, after rising from jhana he does not scrutinise the (physical and mental) formations" (see Visuddhimagga transl. by Ñanamoli, Ch. XVIII, 3). His jhana produces only one-pointedness of mind, and is, as our text says, an "abiding in ease here and now." ------------------------------------------------------------------- You might also want to take a look at Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jhanas, when not accompanied by the other 7 Noble Right Factors, are nothing more than "a pleasant abiding in the here & now". It does not act as the Eighth Noble Right Factor, that is Noble Right Concentration, when the other 7 Noble Right Factors are missing. There is no such thing as "old" and "new" jhanas. Jhana is jhana is jhana is jhana! If you want to believe that Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna, so be it! Does that lead to unbinding and nibbana? A: Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna ... B: Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna ... A: Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna ... B: Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna ... A: Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna ... B: Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna ... ... ... ... I do not see anything skillful out of this theorizing. I believe that Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna because a sotapanna can only accept the Buddha/Dhamma as his teacher. As simple as that. Regards, Swee Boon 49897 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190 and Tiika htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > thank you for your post. > Htoo: > Thanks Nina. Can you explain this last part from 'Summarizing > the ...' to '...is literal'? N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only. There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan, this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na. We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death, kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body. it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be object of insight. As to samaya, we read: Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its function. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. It is clear. Htoo 49898 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 535 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In the stocks of dhamma that are companions of enlightenment or bodhipakkhiya sangaha, there are 7 separate stocks. They are 1. the stock of mindfulness ( 4 satipatthaanas ) 2. the stock of effort ( 4 sammappadhaanas ) 3. the stock of power-base ( 4 iddhipaada ) 4. the stock of faculty ( 5 indriyas ) 5. the stock of strength/power ( 5 balas ) 6. the stock of enlightenment-factor ( 7 bojjhangas ) 7. the stock of path-factor ( 8 maggangas ) The last in these stocks is the stock of path-factor or 'atthangika magga' or '8 maggangas'. There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'path-factor of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'path-factor of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'path-factor of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'path-factor of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'path-factor of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'path-factor of right concentration' (ekaggataa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking'[vitakka] Sankappa derives from 'kappeti'. Kappeti is a verb. Kappeti (vt) 'to shape' 'to make' 'to cause to fit' 'to create' 'build' 'construct' 'prepare' 'order'. Sankappa means 'thought' 'intention' 'purpose'. So samma-sankappa means 'right thought' 'right intention' 'right purpose'. The Buddha said_ 'Katamo ca bhikkhave samma sankappo? Nekkhamma sankappo, abyaapaada sankappo, avihi.msa sankappo. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma sankappo'. 'What is 'right thought' or 'right intention'? Sensuous-leaving thought, non-aversive thought, non-torturing thought. These are to be called 'right thought' or 'right intention'. Thinking or thought have to be free of any kind of ill-will and any kind of sensuous things. If there is still in sensuous matters then those thoughts are not right thoughts. Because sensuous related thoughts will not be liberated. Likewise ill-will are destructive in nature. Ill-will will lead to total destruction of all meditation and these have to be cautiously avoided. More than ill-will is destructive mind of torture. When thoughts are free of sensuous matters, free of ill-will and free of destructive nature then these thoughts may be caled right thought or right intention or right purpose. When there are right view and right intention or thought then all the speech and all the action will become free of ducarita or bad habit of doing. They will become right speech and right action. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49899 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:41am Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. onco111 Hi Colette, One of my favorite passages in the Nikayas is from S III(10) -- a short sutta called "Bondage". I'll just type it out: "Now on that occasion a great mass of people had been put in bondage by King Pasenadi of Kosala -- some with ropes, some with clogs, some with chains. Then, in the morning, a number bhikkhus dressed...and said to the Blessed One: 'Here, venerable sir, a great mass of people have been put in bondage by Kindg Pasenadi of Kosala, some with ropes, some with clogs, some with chains.' "Then the Blessed One, having understood the meaning of this, on that occasion recited these verses: 'That bond, the wise say, is not strong Made of iron, wood, or rope; But infatuation with jewellery and earrings, Anxious concern for wives and children-- This, the wise say, is the strong bond, Degrading, supple, hard to escape. But even this they cut and wander forth, Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." I think his point is that getting worked up about politics (as the bhikkhus were doing) or about pursuit of sense desires or about worries about the physical, external, material conditions one finds onself in or may one day find oneself in -- all of that is binding, and does not liberate in any way. It's the "getting worked up" oneself that's the problem, not the material conditions or what "those other people" are doing that are the ultimate cause of the suffering. Believing this and knowing it on occasion (but soon forgetting), I still sometimes get worked up about politics, or ornaments (not so much earrings or jewelry, but more mental ornaments), sense desires, worries. Helpful? Not at all. "But even this they cut and wander forth, Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." Even this! What's your take on the sutta? Metta, Dan 49900 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 7:15am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 nidive Hi Phil, > Are you contrasting accumulations that *can* be seen etc with > accumulations that *can't*, or are you saying it is best to > disregard accumulations entirely? The sentence isn't clear. Without > a comma and "which" instead of "that" after "accumulations" it > sounds like you're implying that there are some accumulations that > can be seen and tasted etc. I'd never thought of accumulations being > rupa, though I have read a sutta in which it is said that lobha and > dosa "mark" objects in a way that accumulates. It is possible to be mindful of passion(lobha), aversion(dosa) and delusion(moha). The Buddha himself said so in DN 22. http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html But I have not yet read one sutta where the Buddha said that it is possible to be mindful of accumulations. Have you read any yet? > ps my other main point was that if you think there can be > a "accumulations-o-meter" or whatever it was, you need to reflect on > the adze handle simile. If you don't think there could be such a > thing, I wonder why you would ask? I have no idea what is the adze handle simile. I ask because she places so much emphasis on accumulations, but the Buddha did not. Regards, Swee Boon 49901 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 7:48am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) nidive Hi Htoo, > Thanks for your message. I was not disturbed. The idea of God is > totally wrong view. But when offering there is no such view. When > there is such view there is no actual offering even though he or she > may give things to receiver. Agree. > There are many dhammas that seem to be a mixture of akusala and > kusala. But akusala and kusala do not even arise in the same > procession of cittas. But how do you explain kamma that is both dark and bright at the same time? -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#diversity "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. [AN IV.232] -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dhamma are > > 1. akusala > 2. kusala > 3. abyakata > > 1. kusala is profitable. > 2. akusala is unprofitable. > 3. abyakata are dhamma that are done (kata) but are not of both > (bya_both and a-not of). So abyakata is not akusala and not kusala. Can you give an example of abyakata dhamma? I am not sure what is that. Like everyday mundane tasks such as brushing teeth, urination, drinking water, etc. ? Regards, Swee Boon 49902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 269- dana based on pa ññaa nilovg Dear Ng Boon, I read your post with pleasure. I like the subject very much. I just like to add a few things. op 09-09-2005 04:03 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > That's why it is important to know the reason why we > do dana. If you know the reason, then you can > condition panna to arise and we can bring this to next > life or future and continue doing the same good > action. ------ N: Here you explain that paññaa is accumulated and can arise again later on. Now about knowing the reason why we perform daana: This is because there is understanding of the benefit of kusala, and the disadvantage of selfishness. However, there are many degrees of understanding. There can be understanding that generosity is only a conditioned dhamma, non-self. But for this the stages of insight need to arise. Through insight it can be understood what naama is, different from ruupa. Just now we confuse naama and ruupa and thus also the understanding of citta and cetasikas cannot be very clear, they are just on the level of intellectual understanding. ---------- Ng B: And if you are practicing non-discrimination > type of dana (which is good and most probably right), > you also need wisdom and knowing the reason why you do > such action is very important. ------ N: This is impartiality, very important. no thought of: I give to this person, not to that person. Through the development of insight daana and siila will be purer, there is less the idea of this or that person. Your post is very inspiring, thank you. Nina. 49903 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? nidive Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > Which things can enable the realization of Stream-Entry? > > Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made much > of leads to the realization of the fruit of Stream-Entry > (sottapatti-phala)! > > Which four ? > > Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly great > men. > Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. > Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. > Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... I am just glad that "wholesome accumulations" is not one of those factors! Regards, Swee Boon 49904 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 8:45am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Htoo, > Thanks for your message. I was not disturbed. The idea of God is > totally wrong view. But when offering there is no such view. When > there is such view there is no actual offering even though he or she > may give things to receiver. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Swee Boon: Agree. > There are many dhammas that seem to be a mixture of akusala and > kusala. But akusala and kusala do not even arise in the same > procession of cittas. But how do you explain kamma that is both dark and bright at the same time? -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#diversity > > "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? > There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily > fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication > that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is > injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious > world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He > experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with > pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the > lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & > bright result. > > [AN IV.232] -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dark and bright. Well that is why five-sense-comsciousness or panca-vinnaanas are called as dvi-panca-vinnaana. 1. eye-consciousness results from dark 2. eye-consciousness results from bright 3. ear-consciousness etc etc 10.body-consciousness results from bright These are dark and white. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dhamma are > > > > 1. akusala > > 2. kusala > > 3. abyakata > > > > 1. kusala is profitable. > > 2. akusala is unprofitable. > > 3. abyakata are dhamma that are done (kata) but are not of both > > (bya_both and a-not of). So abyakata is not akusala and not kusala. Can you give an example of abyakata dhamma? I am not sure what is that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actual time when something is seen by eye, there arises eye- consciousness. That is abyakata. That seeing is not kusala. That seeing is not akusala. That seeing is not both (abya). But that seeing is done (kata). Consciousness that arises at the time when something is seen by eye is abyakata. Intrinsically such seeing has not to be akusala or kusala. So it is evident that it is abyakata. Bya means both. Abya means none of both. Kata means 'having done' or 'done'. Abyakata are done that are not kusala or akusala. There are many other examples like hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and others. They are intrinsically not kusala or akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Swee Boon: Like everyday mundane tasks such as brushing teeth, urination, drinking water, etc. ? Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there is no consciousness that take the current object or when there is no consciousness in procession there have to arise life- continuing consciousness called life-continuum or bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga = bhava + anga Bhava = existence anga = limb or part bhavanga = limbs of life or part of life All these consciousness called life-continuum or life-continuing consciousness are all abyakata. They are not kusala. They are not akusala. Rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta is also abyakata. Dying consciousness or cuti citta is also abyakata. Actions done by arahats that is all javana cittas in arahats are all abyakata. They are not kusala or akusala. They are just done and there will not be any further results. With Metta, Htoo Naing 49905 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 9:42am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 536 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga, which is part of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or companions of enlightenment. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'P-F of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'P-F of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'P-F of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'P-F of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'P-F of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'P-F of right concentration' (ekaggataa) 'Pannaa magganga' or 'wisdom-group of path-factors' have been discussed. 3. sammaa-vaacaa or path factor of right speech Sammaa means 'right' 'true' 'genuine' 'morally right' 'good' and vaacaa means 'speech' or things that are taught or said or expressed verbally. The Buddha said 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-vaacaa? musaavaadaa veramani, pisu.naaya vaacaaya veramani, pharusaaya vaacaaya veramani, samphappalaapaa veramani. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma- vaacaa.' The Buddha said 'Which are right speech? Avoidance of telling lies, avoidance of telling divisive speech, avoidance of telling harsh speech (swearing words or any hurting words), avoidance of unfruitful meaningless speech like telling tales without benefits. These can be called 'right speech'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49906 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 10:13am Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > > > Which things can enable the realization of Stream-Entry? > > > > Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made much > > of leads to the realization of the fruit of Stream-Entry > > (sottapatti-phala)! > Which four ? > Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly great men. > Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. > Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. > Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... I am just glad that "wholesome accumulations" is not one of those factors! Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, May we ask you to help us understanding 'which four things can enable realization of stream entry'? Is accumulation one of these 4 factors? With respect, Htoo Naing 49907 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma soup for happiness redux mlnease Hi Frank, ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] dhamma soup for happiness redux > Hi Mike, > Apologies accepted. Thanks for your patience. > As Phil pointed out, any word even spoken by the > Buddha such as "revulsion"/nibindati, can be misconstrued and > misunderstood > if looked at without considering a wider context. > In the case of "stillness", looking at the context, considering it was > translated from thai, considering it was in a verse uttered by someone of > such enormous stature who was a master of meditation and the sutta pitaka, > and over several decades where close disciples reported seeing only > peaceful > joyful demeanor with no clue of lust, hatred, ignorance, I would tend to > give Luang Pu the benefit of the doubt on his meaning behind "stillness". Understood--this is where we differ. None of the considerations above are any indication of understanding in my opinion. The expressions of Ajahn Dune ('Luang Pu', whom you've quoted) and other NE Thai followers of Ajahn Mun are remarkably similar (including those of V. Thanissaro, the translator and preeminent promoter of these views on the internet) and remarkably different from the Paali tipi.taka by my reading. Of course you've come to different conclusions and we should probably agree to disagree. Certainly these differences have been discussed at length before on dsg and I have no interest in rejoining that debate. Thanks again and best wishes. mike 49908 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for happiness redux mlnease Hi Phil, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 9:22 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: dhamma soup for happiness redux > Ok, I see. We can still them (well, I can't, but that's another > story) but I meant it doesn't seem like right understanding to > believe that stilling the defilements is a permanent solution, > a "safe happiness." People can still them, and believe they've > gotten somewhere. Agreed-- > It could also be that the "still" in the passage > Frank quoted ( a sutta?) could have a different meaning than what we > understood at first glance because of connotations of "still". Maybe so--I'm skeptical. > There > are many examples of that in sutta translations. (I think of Bhikkhu > Bodhdi's "revulsion" as one.) Revulsion seems unambiguous to me--it is utter lack of attraction (especially toward something normally found attractive) undefiled by aversion. >>> Also thanks for correcting my bad manners. > I didn't mean it that way, just to point out that the Dhamma > content was far more important than the tone. I think there is far > too much apologizing for bad manners here. Bad manners will come and > go. Really, it is a confirmation of the Buddha's teaching that there > is not much control over them. Still it's a good thing (and rare) when done well and I do appreciate it. > Do we apologize for not having wise attention to dosa? That's all > it is. It's more than that--it's akusala kamma. And yes, if we're civil we do apologize. Even if kamma is 'uncontrollable', an apology can be a kind of gift, I think--if so then kusala (at least in part). As can forgiveness, I think, both kinds of deference. In fact deference--just putting the other person first, giving up a seat, "after you" etc., seems to me to be one of the most available kinds of kusala (daana) available to anyone--and can sometimes also be siila and even bhavana if done with understanding. > Maybe apologizing is rooted in another kind of lobha, clinging to > a self-image of being a person who behaves in a pleasant way. Sure it can--the counterfeit of kusala is FAR more common than the real thing, I think. > Buddhists must be gentle and courteous, we think. But if we're not > gentle and courteous at some moment, apologizing doesn't do anything > because the akusala kamma patha is already gone. It feels so good > after we apologize. Isn't it more escaping from dosa? I apologize in > advance for saying that. As above-- > Does apologizing in itself condition abstention from wrong speech > the next time the conditions arise? Surely not. People apologize > here, and a few weeks later are back at it again, as I will be. > Understanding the outburst is infinitely more valuable than > apologizing for it, which is what we usually do, so quickly, to be > done with it and "move on." Just some thoughts on apologizing. Well, I do accept--as a working hypothesis--that understanding is the key to eradicating latent defilements. Hope I'll find out for sure one day. > Lord knows you are always rampaging like a madman here, Mike. > Might as well get used to it (haha) You might be surprised, Phil--usually I just keep my 'mouth' shut. mike 49909 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 11:34am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia 3 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 2:00pm Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! buddhistmedi... Dear Friends Htoo and Swee (Attn. Ven. Samahita)- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > > > > > Which things can enable the realization of Stream-Entry? > > > > > > Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made much of leads to the realization of the fruit of Stream-Entry (sottapatti-phala)! > > > Which four ? > > > Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly great > men. Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... > > I am just glad that "wholesome accumulations" is not one of those > factors! > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, > > May we ask you to help us understanding 'which four things can enable > realization of stream entry'? Is accumulation one of these 4 factors? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing Tep: You both asked Bhikkhu Samahita ("Ekamuni") whether accumulation was one of the Sotapatti factors. I know that both of you know what the Sotapatti factors are, and that they do not include accumulation. If Bhikkhu Samahita's answer were : 'yes, accumulation is one of the factors', then would you change your belief? Sincerely, Tep ========= 49911 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 2:36pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee(Attn. Mike, James, and others)- I have read your recommended suttas: MN 8 Sallekha Sutta, The Discourse on Effacement, and Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. If you want to review them individually with me later, I will appreciate it. However, they do not provide the answer to prove that there are two kinds of jhana: an old jhana system that was rejected by Prince Siddhartha, and a new jhana system discovered by the Buddha based on seclusion and nekkhamma. The proof was already given in my message # 49822. For the sake of the Dhamma I am going to explain it again below. ----------------------------- >Swee: >Jhanas, when not accompanied by the other 7 Noble Right Factors, >are nothing more than "a pleasant abiding in the here & now". >It does not act as the Eighth Noble Right Factor, that is Noble Right >Concentration, when the other 7 Noble Right Factors are missing. Tep: I already agreed with the necessary support of the other seven Noble factors (as stated in MN 117). >Swee: >There is no such thing as "old" and "new" jhanas. Jhana is jhana is >jhana is jhana! Tep: In my last DSG message # 49822 I wrote the following. >Tep: Prince Siddartha learned both (old) rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana >from Uddaka Raamaputta as is evidence by the folowing quote: 'This >Teaching does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, >appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to >the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied >I turned away from it'. The Prince rejected the kind of jhanas that did >not lead to enlightenment. I belief that the stated inadequacies ('This Teaching does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to the sphere of neither- perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied I turned away from it'.) in Uddaka Raamaputta 's jhana is indeed a solid proof that there was an old jhana and a new jhana that led to Enlightenment. He searched for the new jhana and found it. >Tep (message # 49822 ): The the Prince, after returning to food and >gained back his strength, entered into the jhana system he knew >since he was young and living with his father. He wanted to know if >such "first jhana" really was "the path to enlightenment." " Partaking coarse food and gaining strength, secluded from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I attained to the first jhaana. Aggivessana, even those arisen pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, with the mind internally appeased, and brought to a single point, without thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I attained to the second jhaana. Aggivessana, even those arisen pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. With equanimity to joy and detachment abode mindful and aware, and with the body experienced pleasantness and attained to the third jhaana. To this abiding the noble ones said, abiding mindfully in pleasantness. Aggivessana, even those pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness, and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, without unpleasantness and pleasantness and mindfulness purified with equanimity, I attained to the fourth jhaana." [MN 36, quoted in DSG # 49822.] The case is closed, I'd say. Regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Jhanas, when not accompanied by the other 7 Noble Right Factors, are nothing more than "a pleasant abiding in the here & now". > > It does not act as the Eighth Noble Right Factor, that is Noble Right > Concentration, when the other 7 Noble Right Factors are missing. > > There is no such thing as "old" and "new" jhanas. Jhana is jhana is > jhana is jhana! > > If you want to believe that Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna, so be > it! Does that lead to unbinding and nibbana? > > A: Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna ... > B: Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna ... > A: Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna ... > B: Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna ... > A: Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna ... > B: Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna ... > ... > ... > ... > > I do not see anything skillful out of this theorizing. > > I believe that Prince Siddartha was not a sotapanna because a > sotapanna can only accept the Buddha/Dhamma as his teacher. > > As simple as that. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 49912 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Swee(Attn. Mike, James, and others)- > > I have read your recommended suttas: MN 8 Sallekha Sutta, The > Discourse on Effacement, and Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. > If you want to review them individually with me later, I will appreciate it. > However, they do not provide the answer to prove that there are two > kinds of jhana: an old jhana system that was rejected by Prince > Siddhartha, and a new jhana system discovered by the Buddha based > on seclusion and nekkhamma. Hi Tep, Swee Boon, Mike, and ALL, Tep, I agree with your conclusions and I believe that Swee Boon is incorrect. However, Tep, you haven't really gotten to the heart of the matter to explain why the yoga techniques Siddhartha Gotama practiced with his previous teachers were not the same yoga techniques he practiced on his own. Of course, all of the sutta evidence points to the fact that they were not the same, in their conclusionary statements, but the reasons they were not the same hasn't been spelled out in your posts. I will put forward my input on this matter, which will be a repeat of what I have posted in the past and is a bit different than your position. The sticking area is where the Buddha describes his learning two immaterial attainments from his former teachers and he found them lacking. Now, most everyone assumes that Siddhartha had to get to these immaterial attainments by achieving the four jhanas first, as is described in other suttas describing later periods, but I don't agree with that. First, the Buddha always listed every mental attainment in his suttas, no matter how small or minor, so the fact that he didn't list the four jhanas in the sutta about his former teachers means that he didn't attain them, as far as I am concerned. Everyone is ASSUMING that he did attain the four jhanas even though he doesn't say so, but I don't assume anything. If he didn't say that he did, then he didn't! The Buddha never left out anything important in his suttas. Obviously, from my perspective, he learned a way to attain the immaterial attainments from his former teachers without going through the four jhanas first. This isn't difficult for me to accept because the immaterial attainments depend on a specific object, the immaterial realms- just focus on that object until the attainment is achieved. There is no hocus pocus about it. When the Buddha describes his enlightenment and how he found the way to achieve it- through the memory of a first jhana achievement when he was a child- he describes this as a revelation, a new insight. What would it say about the Buddha to have practiced the four jhanas previously, found them lacking, but was now thinking that they were the key he had been missing all along? What it would say is that the Buddha was either stupid or naive. As far as I am concerned, anyone who claims that the Buddha had practiced the same jhanas with former teachers as he had practiced alone is also claiming that the Buddha was stupid and naive- and that the Buddha was a liar for not telling the whole story. Personally, I would rather die than to claim that! The four jhanas are unique to the Buddha and anyone who claims otherwise is stupid/naive/and a liar. Metta, James 49913 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Vism.XIV,191 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 191. Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition74 have elapsed is 'past'. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is 'present'. That which has not attained to either function is 'future'. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. And here only the explanations beginning with the 'moment' are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense. --------------------------- Note 74. ' "Cause" (hetu) is what gives birth (janaka); "condition"(paccaya) is what consolidates (upatthambhaka). Their respective functions are arousing and consolidating. Just as the seed's function is to arose the sprout and that of the earth, etc., is to consolidate it, and just as kamma's function is to arouse result as matter that is due to kamma performed, and that of nutriment is to consolidate it, so the function of those [conditions] that give birth to each material group and each thought-arising and serve as kamma and proximity-conditions, etc., for them, and the function of those that consolidate them serve as conascence, prenascence, and postnascence conditions for them may be construed accordingly as appropriate. 'Because there is similarity and dissimilarity in temperature, etc., in the way stated, the pastness, etc., of material instances originated by it are stated according to continuity. But there is no such similarity and dissimilarity in the kamma that gives birth to a single becoming, so instead of stating according to continuity the pastness, etc., of material instances originated by that, it is stated according to what consolidates. However, when there comes to be reversal of sex, then the male sex disappears owing to powerful unprofitable kamma, and the female sex appears owing to weak profitable kamma; and the female sex disappears owing to weak unprofitable kamma, while the male sex appears owing to powerful profitable kamma (DhsA.321). So there is in fact dissimilarity in what is originated by kamma and consequent dissimilarity in what is past, etc., in accordance with the continuity of these as well. But it is not included because it does not happen always' (Pm497). 49914 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 Yo Dan, I like having your responses to start with thes past few times. Pardon me if I hack this to just get to the meat of the post here... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: OR MAYBE colette: as in another group I'm part of you are taking this huge amount of suppositions and lumping them into an aggregate, I'm probably more guilty of this than any of yourselves. I've noticed some characteristics of people on these groups is that there are many very learned people that hide behind psuedonyms or false appearances or ... and while this may be good for their personal security what they do with or through this false self, psuedonym, etc, is not wise or liberating at all, in fact it is VERY CONCEITFUL. with that said lets answer your response in recognition. > I think his point is that getting worked up about politics (as the > bhikkhus were doing) colette: you use the term "were" therefore you are making the reality of "The Past" kamma included, "The Present" kamma included, and "The Future, kamma included, as something that beggars do (bhikku translated to english is "beggar") when in fact getting worked up is what they have done, but I can verify it is what they do today in the here & now, therefore I can pressume that it is what they will do after my body has decomposed. In 2001 when I had a website I used the rational for society's robotic behavior is that "go to McDonald's and order a hamburger, because I know of McDonald's code of 'quality control' I can tell you that the hamburger you order and eat today is exactly the same as the hamburger that was first cooked and sold at McDonald's therefore I can guarantee to you and you great great great great great great... grandchildren that they will be eating the same hamburger" To the magi, or mage, or nagas, or... we can see that I've found how to transcend the problems of Time & Space. > or about pursuit of sense desires colette: OBSCURATIONS, I know you're out there reading this Fr. 10 or is it Fr. I0, or ..., As I've stated in response to this person's paper The Abyss and Back or was it Entering The Budhadharma. Nevertheless, lets take our generic suburban household (male/female, 2.7 dependents, mortgage out the booddy hole, automobile payments, blah blah blah) but wait, the stereotype, the profile, the category, is not complete without the "Demarkation" the OBSURATION, between this person's yard and the other person's yard. Thus, by conforming to the status quo, the beaten path, we must place the "picket fence" up which just happens to be an obsuration since it does indeed make it clear to you and every other sentient living being that the owner of this obsuration is a prisoner within/behind the obscuration. What was that you were saying about "Desires"? David Gilmore refered to this in one of his songs: "When you come in you're in for good" "When you look out you don't see in"... -------------- or about > worries about the physical, external, material conditions one finds > onself in or may one day find oneself in -- all of that is binding, > and does not liberate in any way. colette: how TRUE! view a CD cover for Pink Floyd and you'll find that they depict a couple, (see J.Geils Band the song is Love Stinks, "Two by two, and side by side, Love's gonna find you yes it is, you just can't hide") and this couple is dancing in some kind of a field but there are these cables coming from the ground, the earth, and these cables attach to the limbs and such of the dancers. Interesting isn't it? --------------- ********************************* It's the "getting worked up" > oneself that's the problem, not the material conditions or > what "those other people" are doing that are the ultimate cause of > the suffering. colette: I'm sorry but it seems that I've left the Sutta I can use perfectly here at home. pardon me while I remind myself to focus on finding this sutta and bringing it to consciousness if not for you in the group for myself. Yo, wake up, go find the sutta dealing with the misineterpretation of what causes a fetter, it's in stack below the stack on the bed that I labeled "already stapled" which ment I didn't have to take it this morning. Remember the humor it brought when I laughed at the relationship between what I said in 2001 Which came first the crime or the police officer, chicken or the egg," ****************************** > > Believing this and knowing it on occasion (but soon forgetting), I > still sometimes get worked up about politics, or ornaments (not so > much earrings or jewelry, but more mental ornaments), sense desires, > worries. Helpful? colette: by all means they're helpful since you're creating a foundation, as all good masons do, for your belief structure. ------------------ Not at all. > > "But even this they cut and wander forth, > Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." > > Even this! > > What's your take on the sutta? I only got a few minutes left in thelibrary but I'm going down the street to a facility that has computers for longer than an hour and I will get to this question specifically. Gotta get the msg. # after I click on Send. toodles, colette > > Metta, > > Dan 49915 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > 'That bond, the wise say, is not strong > Made of iron, wood, or rope; > But infatuation with jewellery and earrings, > Anxious concern for wives and children-- > This, the wise say, is the strong bond, > Degrading, supple, hard to escape. > But even this they cut and wander forth, > Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." > colette: sorry, it's gotta be the No Child Left Behind Act. I noticed back in the 80s that the educational system is a manufacturing system, an assembly line mode of production. In the process or methodology of manufacturing people or robots we can see that they are shown the power of the iron, wood, or rope as implements, see the Spanish Inquisition and the which hunts in the New England area, of bondage or restraint. Here we get into Hiri and ottapa I think, actually doing evil and the shame of doing evil. In the manufacturing process the robot is taught the carrot & stick method of salesmanship where the robot has to make the correct decision to get the reward, recall your value structure or just watch the Antiques Roadshow on public broadcasting. Now consider adopting anti-Soviet behavior and defying the Republican national committee. You also defy organized religion, it's one of those "buy one get one free" deals. Aren't you in a position to question the validity of iron, wood or rope? Can you, using certainty of your mind, now question the molecular structure, the arrangement of atoms, that have made up this illusion of iron, wood or rope? Okay, I'm out there huh? Remember now that I am strictly dealing with "ULTIMATE MEANINGS, ULITMATE REALITIES, etc" I am also suggesting that: the past, the present, and the future, are all one in the same. Remember, now, that I possess this odd concept of seeing this aspect called "god" in everything and since this is the case then there is no seperation between the past, present, and future, since I have never left the presence of this thing called "god". How can I say I had a conversation with "god" if I have not yet finished this conversation? It all gets into this concept of Me, Myself, I. Naturally we're led to the sutta of "...this is not me, not myself, not I" So we have now seperated the internal and external and we have classified them as well as developing an entire psychology of the characteristics of the external. From here we can look inside ourselves, the internal and actually visualize the manifestation of EMOTIONS to make emotions tangible things. Sensual Pleasures are entirely based on emotional desires, cravings. Vanquish those cravings and the entire structure of organized education, caste system, stratification, etc. is without merit and do you know what that means to the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and the Athletic Departments of all universities? What about Monday Night Football and all those advertisers that will hold ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, etc. to their contracts of delivering gluttons to their stores for purchase, fleecing, of the products used to entice them thru the media of television or radio? toodles, colette > > > "But even this they cut and wander forth, > Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." > > Even this! > > What's your take on the sutta? 49916 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 1:44pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 Dan, The sutta I made a note for myself to find tonight at home I found quickly while browsing. Please see: Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.191 toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Colette, > One of my favorite passages in the Nikayas is from S III(10) -- a > short sutta called "Bondage". I'll just type it out: > > "Now on that occasion a great mass of people had been put in bondage > by King Pasenadi of Kosala -- some with ropes, some with clogs, some > with chains. Then, in the morning, a number bhikkhus dressed...and > said to the Blessed One: 'Here, venerable sir, a great mass of people > have been put in bondage by Kindg Pasenadi of Kosala, some with > ropes, some with clogs, some with chains.' > > "Then the Blessed One, having understood the meaning of this, on that > occasion recited these verses: > > 'That bond, the wise say, is not strong > Made of iron, wood, or rope; > But infatuation with jewellery and earrings, > Anxious concern for wives and children-- > This, the wise say, is the strong bond, > Degrading, supple, hard to escape. > But even this they cut and wander forth, > Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." > <....> 49917 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Re: Cambodian ....(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3. No guru of yours? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I read your dialogue (#49895) with Guru Sukin and have a few responses. (I) Htoo: You have a good 'insight' into the matter. Good discussions. I do not think our discussions are very long. Even if long they should be paid attention to explore what is what. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (II) Htoo: Of course. I do not know whether I rightly understand Dhamma. But I think I understand Dhamma rightly. Expression-wise I have been trying to express in the most appropriate style or way. If something wrong in my message it may well related to my language usage. Examples; I wrote ebook on 'Patthaana Dhamma', which I frequently advertised. Only Tep gave me a comment that 'that ebook should be read by scholars and ask them what are wrong'. No one except Tep give me any comments. But I am not looking forward to any comments. That ebook is for the welfare of all, who read it. If you have a small interest and read that you can give me comments offl-list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (III) Htoo: Actually this is good of you, kind of you. Sarah also kindly helps in this matter of expression in indirect way. Sarah, Robert K, you and many others here at DSG are my gurus to be honest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's Response ------------------------ (I) When you listen to someone, please try to look beyond the smooth flow of words -- where is the real subtance? Is the glib talker a do-er, a do-nothinger, or a thinker (philosopher)? Many voters have elected political candidates mainly because of their communication skill, fame, family name, or look. (II) You quoted me on your e-book. But I cannot recall giving that comment ('that ebook should be read by scholars and ask them what are wrong'). The sentence does not make much sense to me. But it doesn't matter, just keep in mind that I shall be more than happy to review your future articles for you (if you see some value in my review). Notice that there is neither 'lobha' nor 'atta' behind my offer. (III) I am really glad that I am not one of your gurus, Htoo. Let's be just dhamma friends. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > Ha ha ha ha. Apology for my amusement. This might be unusual for me > to have such amusement. I recently included such emotional > expressions. My normal self is just calm and seems to be serious. > 49918 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Tep, > I belief that the stated inadequacies ('This Teaching does not lead > to giving up, detachment, cessation, appeasement, knowledge > enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to the sphere of neither- > perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied I turned away from > it'.) in Uddaka Raamaputta 's jhana is indeed a solid proof that > there was an old jhana and a new jhana that led to Enlightenment. > He searched for the new jhana and found it. It does not lead to unbinding because it is simply just a "pleasant abiding here and now". It lacks the other seven noble right factors, that's why it is inadequate. > >Tep (message # 49822 ): The the Prince, after returning to food and > >gained back his strength, entered into the jhana system he knew > >since he was young and living with his father. He wanted to know if > >such "first jhana" really was "the path to enlightenment." Why would a sotapanna "want to know" if he already "knew" it? Anyway, the case is closed. Whatever you want to believe, just believe. Regards, Swee Boon 49919 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! nidive Hi Tep, > Tep: You both asked Bhikkhu Samahita ("Ekamuni") whether > accumulation was one of the Sotapatti factors. I know that both of > you know what the Sotapatti factors are, and that they do not > include accumulation. To be more precise, I didn't ask Bhikkhu Samahita. I said that I am just glad. Regards, Swee Boon 49920 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan christine_fo... Hello all, These articles about the place of Jhâna are worth considering and reflecting on: 'Jhâna and Lokuttarajjhâna' by Brahmâli Bhikkhu (April 2005) 1. Introduction 2. The Concept of Lokuttarajjhâna 3. Ariyo Sammâsamâdhi 4. Commentarial Interpretations 4.1 Samanamandika Sutta, M78 4.2 So Vata Sutta 4.3 Other Suttas 5. The Danger in Reduced Respect for samâdhi and jhâna 6. Abhidhamma-bhâjaniya & Suttanta-bhâjaniya 7. Conclusion http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 'Interpretations of the Jhanas' - Leigh Brasington "There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas. We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing. Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or immediately thereafter". http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/jhanantp.htm metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > I belief that the stated inadequacies ('This Teaching does not lead > > to giving up, detachment, cessation, appeasement, knowledge > > enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to the sphere of neither- > > perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied I turned away from > > it'.) in Uddaka Raamaputta 's jhana is indeed a solid proof that > > there was an old jhana and a new jhana that led to Enlightenment. > > He searched for the new jhana and found it. > > It does not lead to unbinding because it is simply just a "pleasant > abiding here and now". > > It lacks the other seven noble right factors, that's why it is > inadequate. > > > >Tep (message # 49822 ): The the Prince, after returning to food and > > >gained back his strength, entered into the jhana system he knew > > >since he was young and living with his father. He wanted to know if > > >such "first jhana" really was "the path to enlightenment." > > Why would a sotapanna "want to know" if he already "knew" it? > > Anyway, the case is closed. Whatever you want to believe, just > believe. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 49921 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 5:08pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Tep, Since you are such a theoretical expert in the jhanas, I have something to ask you. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x-tb0.html "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Why would a sotapanna like Prince Siddartha be afraid of the first jhana? Regards, Swee Boon 49922 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, James (and all) - > James: As far as I am concerned, > anyone who claims that the Buddha had practiced the same jhanas >with former teachers as he had practiced alone is also claiming that > the Buddha was stupid and naive- and that the Buddha was a liar >for not telling the whole story. Personally, I would rather die than to > claim that! The four jhanas are unique to the Buddha and anyone > who claims otherwise is stupid/naive/and a liar. > I am encouraged that you do not disagree with the proof that there are two kinds of jhana. It is true, James, I did not get to "the heart of the matter to explain why the yoga techniques Siddhartha Gotama practiced with his previous teachers were not the same yoga techniques he practiced on his own". I only give the Prince Siddartha's reason why he rejected the old jhana system: 'This Teaching does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied I turned away from it'. Thank you for your effort in contributing an input, the key ideas of which are listed below. James: -- "First, the Buddha always listed every mental attainment in his suttas, no matter how small or minor, so the fact that he didn't list the four jhanas in the sutta about his former teachers means that he didn't attain them, as far as I am concerned. -- "Everyone is ASSUMING that he did attain the four jhanas even though he doesn't say so, but I don't assume anything. If he didn't say that he did, then he didn't! -- "Obviously, from my perspective, he learned a way to attain the immaterial attainments from his former teachers without going through the four jhanas first. -- "What would it say about the Buddha to have practiced the four jhanas previously, found them lacking, but was now thinking that they were the key he had been missing all along? What it would say is that the Buddha was either stupid or naive. Tep: It is clear in 'black and white', the way you have said it. Of course, our unwavering saddha in the Buddha is definitely an important piece of the proof. With sincere appreciation, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Swee(Attn. Mike, James, and others)- 49923 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > Tep: You both asked Bhikkhu Samahita ("Ekamuni") whether > > accumulation was one of the Sotapatti factors. I know that both of > > you know what the Sotapatti factors are, and that they do not > > include accumulation. > > To be more precise, I didn't ask Bhikkhu Samahita. I said that I am > just glad. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Tep: Right. You did not ask him. I am sorry for jumping to the conclusion. Sincerely, Tep ====== 49924 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee - I am glad to move on to another topic, while continuing to discuss the same important sutta. Before going too far beyond the context (or scope) of this sutta, however, let's agree that no single sutta has all answers to satisfy our imagination (that may run wild?). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Since you are such a theoretical expert in the jhanas, I have > something to ask you. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x-tb0.html > > "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and > I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities > — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born > from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why > am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, > nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no > longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, > nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but it is not easy to > achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Swee: > > Why would a sotapanna like Prince Siddartha be afraid of the first > jhana? > Tep: I assume that the words "to be afraid of" mean "be shaken" or " be overwhelmed". Because he was no longer afraid of a sensual pleasure or any "unskillful mental qualities", it means that he was able to overcome sensual-based pleasure with the consciousness far above unwholesome dhammas. But the unworldling pleasure being experienced during the jhanic state must be so huge that it was hard to bear by his weakened body after several days of starving ( "body so extremely emaciated"). So I think the Ariyan Siddartha could not help feeling shaken a bit by the overwhelming piti and sukha. Sincerely, Tep ======== 49925 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:01pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 philofillet Hi Swee Boon > But I have not yet read one sutta where the Buddha said that it is > possible to be mindful of accumulations. > > Have you read any yet? I think of the sutta in which the Buddha says we should know the "blemish" (as translated by BB) in our heart. Anguttara Nikaya, I think. Blemishes don't pop up overnight. Really, any sutta about the three unwholesome roots is likely to be about accumulations. We agree that they are deep-rooted. Roots don't plunge down into the earth in a moment, they grow slowly. And my favourite sutta which says not by deeds or words are defilements to be known, but by wisely seeing them. Perhaps you mean the word "accumulations" (anusayas) literally. I don't know about that. But surely accumulations are always there. And only by understanding them can we begin to eradicate the unwholesome roots. > I have no idea what is the adze handle simile. You probably know it with a different word than "adze." (I don't even know what an "adze" is.) The carpenter doesn't check the handle of his tool every day to measure how much it has worn away by the pressure of his hand, neither can we or should we measure how much our defilments (?) have worn away. Thus, no accumulation meter. > > I ask because she places so much emphasis on accumulations, but the > Buddha did not. That's a good reason to ask. BTW, I don't understand the mechanics of acccumulations either. I have posted about that a few times. If a citta falls away completely, with "no storehouse" as Vism (?) puts it, how can factors be accumulated? But I am willing to postpone understanding in that area because it makes so much sense that of course our hatred and greed and ignorance are accumulated. Phil 49926 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:16pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi Chris - Thank you for the two Web links. Of course, I will read both (the trouble is that I think I might have time ). Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > These articles about the place of Jhâna are worth considering and > reflecting on: > > 'Jhâna and Lokuttarajjhâna' by Brahmâli Bhikkhu (April > 2005) (snipped) > http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=94 > > 'Interpretations of the Jhanas' - Leigh Brasington > (snipped) > http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/jhanantp.htm > > metta and peace, > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 49927 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 6:22pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. onco111 Hi Colette, I enjoy reading your posts -- even though I can't make heads or tails out of them. > colette: as in another group I'm part of you are taking this huge > amount of suppositions and lumping them into an aggregate I don't doubt it for a minute! Colette: "I've noticed some characteristics of people on these groups is that there are many very learned people that hide behind psuedonyms or false appearances" Not sure what you mean by "psuedonym". > > I think his point is that getting worked up about politics (as the bhikkhus were doing) > colette: you use the term "were" therefore you are making the reality > of "The Past" kamma included, "The Present" kamma included, and "The > Future, kamma included, as something that beggars do (bhikku > translated to english is "beggar") when in fact getting worked up is > what they have done, but I can verify it is what they do today in the > here & now, therefore I can pressume that it is what they will do > after my body has decomposed. Hmmmm... I'm certain I was making suppositions and lumping things into aggregates, and I may even have been hiding behind psuedonyms and false appearances (since I don't have any idea what "true appearances" of the self would look like and I don't rightly know what psuedonyms are in the first place :D ) , but I'm quite sure that I WAS thinking about the Buddha's message that getting worked up about politics is unseemly for one who is seeking liberation, unseemly because, ultimately, the real bonds are craving, aversion, and conceit -- not the particulars of the material conditions we find ourselves in at any particular moment. Yeah, yeah, I know you can translate "bhikkhu" into English as "beggar" and can even visualize a crazed, ranting panhandler when reading about "bhikkhus" in the suttas -- it's not easy, but certainly possible -- Just as it's possible to render "lobha" as "love", or "delusion" as "self-esteem". And that's fine, so long as the true meaning and intent of the Buddha's words is not too badly mangled. > > or about pursuit of sense desires > > colette: OBSCURATIONS Hmmm.... I like that word. > the "Demarkation" the OBSURATION, between this person's yard and the > other person's yard. Thus, by conforming to the status quo, the > beaten path, we must place the "picket fence" up which just happens > to be an obsuration since it does indeed make it clear to you and > every other sentient living being that the owner of this obsuration > is a prisoner within/behind the obscuration. What was that you were > saying about "Desires"? About the 'desires'? Oh, yeah... I was saying that in the sutta we were discussing, Buddha taught that getting all lobha-ed up about picket fences and hamburgers (or all dosa-ed up about other people's picket fences and hamburgers) is precisely what we need liberation from -- and I believe it! > David Gilmore refered to this in one of his songs: > > "When you come in you're in for good" "When you look out you don't > see in"... > -------------- And another song continues: "Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full!" > colette: how TRUE! view a CD cover for Pink Floyd and you'll find > that they depict a couple, (see J.Geils Band the song is Love > Stinks, "Two by two, and side by side, Love's gonna find you yes it > is, you just can't hide") and this couple is dancing in some kind of > a field but there are these cables coming from the ground, the earth, > and these cables attach to the limbs and such of the dancers. > Interesting isn't it? Interesting indeed! A little sour, but interesting. Ya' know, the Buddha says very much the same kinds of things. Is there a difference? Of course there's a difference! No hint of sourness in the Buddha... > *************************** ****** > colette: I'm sorry but it seems that I've left the Sutta I can use > perfectly here at home. pardon me while I remind myself to focus on > finding this sutta and bringing it to consciousness if not for you in the group for myself. > Yo, wake up, go find the sutta dealing with the misineterpretation of > what causes a fetter, it's in stack below the stack on the bed that I > labeled "already stapled" which ment I didn't have to take it this > morning. Remember the humor it brought when I laughed at the > relationship between what I said in 2001 Which came first the crime > or the police officer, chicken or the egg," > > ****************************** > > > > > Believing this and knowing it on occasion (but soon forgetting), I > > still sometimes get worked up about politics, or ornaments (not so > > much earrings or jewelry, but more mental ornaments), sense > desires, > > worries. Helpful? > > colette: by all means they're helpful since you're creating a > foundation, as all good masons do, for your belief structure. ... that's fine, Colette, but this IS "DhammaStudyGroup". We like to discuss Dhamma, and not so much meta-Dhamma. With metta and plenty of toodles to you, too, Dan 49928 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. onco111 Clipping the political and skipping the philosophical (which are indeed tempting and alluring, in a macabre way, but only just shy of relevant in a Dhamma discussion list) I found this: Colette: "Sensual Pleasures are entirely based on emotional desires, cravings." By all accounts, Buddha enjoyed sensual pleasures and suffered sensual pain, but was beyond cravings and emotional desires. Enjoy without craving or attachment. Suffer without hating or aversion. Possible? Metta, Dan > colette: sorry, it's gotta be the No Child Left Behind Act. I noticed > back in the 80s that the educational system is a manufacturing > system, an assembly line mode of production. > > In the process or methodology of manufacturing people or robots we > can see that they are shown the power of the iron, wood, or rope as > implements, see the Spanish Inquisition and the which hunts in the > New England area, of bondage or restraint. Here we get into Hiri and > ottapa I think, actually doing evil and the shame of doing evil. In > the manufacturing process the robot is taught the carrot & stick > method of salesmanship where the robot has to make the correct > decision to get the reward, recall your value structure or just watch > the Antiques Roadshow on public broadcasting. > > Now consider adopting anti-Soviet behavior and defying the Republican > national committee. You also defy organized religion, it's one of > those "buy one get one free" deals. Aren't you in a position to > question the validity of iron, wood or rope? Can you, using certainty > of your mind, now question the molecular structure, the arrangement > of atoms, that have made up this illusion of iron, wood or rope? > Okay, I'm out there huh? Remember now that I am strictly dealing > with "ULTIMATE MEANINGS, ULITMATE REALITIES, etc" I am also > suggesting that: the past, the present, and the future, are all one > in the same. Remember, now, that I possess this odd concept of seeing > this aspect called "god" in everything and since this is the case > then there is no seperation between the past, present, and future, > since I have never left the presence of this thing called "god". How > can I say I had a conversation with "god" if I have not yet finished > this conversation? > > It all gets into this concept of Me, Myself, I. Naturally we're led > to the sutta of "...this is not me, not myself, not I" > > So we have now seperated the internal and external and we have > classified them as well as developing an entire psychology of the > characteristics of the external. From here we can look inside > ourselves, the internal and actually visualize the manifestation of > EMOTIONS to make emotions tangible things. > Sensual Pleasures are entirely based on emotional desires, cravings. > Vanquish those cravings and the entire structure of organized > education, caste system, stratification, etc. is without merit and do > you know what that means to the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and > the Athletic Departments of all universities? What about Monday Night > Football and all those advertisers that will hold ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, > etc. to their contracts of delivering gluttons to their stores for > purchase, fleecing, of the products used to entice them thru the > media of television or radio? > > toodles, > colette > > > > > > > > > > "But even this they cut and wander forth, > > Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." > > > > Even this! > > > > What's your take on the sutta? 49929 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 8:01pm Subject: Regarding Accumulations (Re: ..........Bhikkhu Samahita help us!!) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > > > > > Which things can enable the realization of Stream-Entry? > > > > > > Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made much > > > of leads to the realization of the fruit of Stream-Entry > > > (sottapatti-phala)! > > > Which four ? > > > Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly great > men. > > Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. > > Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. > > Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... > > I am just glad that "wholesome accumulations" is not one of those > factors! > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, > > May we ask you to help us understanding 'which four things can enable > realization of stream entry'? Is accumulation one of these 4 factors? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing Hello all, Regarding accumulations - some definitions from the PED: Pubbavasana (p. 467) an impression remaining in the mind from former actions Sn 1009; ThA 31 (Ap. v. 8). Vasana (p. 610) (f.) [fr. vasati2 = vasa2, but by Rh. D., following the P. Com. connected with vaseti & vasa3] that which remains in the mind, tendencies of the past, impression, usually as pubba° former impression (Sn 1009; Miln 10, 263). -- Cp. Nett 4, 21, 48, 128, 133 sq., 153, 158 sq., 189 sq. -- Cp. BSk. vasana, e. g. MVastu I.345. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49930 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Htoo: > > You have a good 'insight' into the matter. Good discussions. I do not > think our discussions are very long. Even if long they should be paid > attention to explore what is what. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo (and Sukin), Definitely not too long. I learn a lot from you and Sukins discussions over the last year - some really incisisive Dhamma. Robertk p.s. I'm hoping to meet with Sukin this afternoon. 49931 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:02am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Since you are such a theoretical expert in the jhanas, I have > something to ask you. > > Why would a sotapanna like Prince Siddartha be afraid of the first > jhana? > > Regards, > Swee Boon I think I missed something along the way; I have a hard time keeping up with posts. Who said that Siddartha Gotama was a sotapanna? Siddhartha couldn't have been a sotapanna, he became a fully enlightened Buddha. Only arahants can go through the stages of sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner, and arahant. A Buddha goes through a difference process of perfecting the paramis and then becomes a Buddha, at no point would a Buddha be a sotapanna. Am I missing something? Metta, James 49932 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend nidive swee boon who wrote: >glad that "wholesome accumulations" is not one of those factors! Advantageous merit is not actually bad, neither in this regard... Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 49933 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 9, 2005 11:33pm Subject: The 4 Noble Truths ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Ignorance is Not Understanding these Four Noble Truths! Friends, it is because of not penetrating & not understanding this 1st Noble Truth about Suffering, that both you & I have travelled in this round of rebirth for so long! It is because of not penetrating & not understanding this 2nd Noble Truth about the Cause of Suffering, that both you & I have travelled in this round of rebirth so long! It is because of not penetrating & not understanding this 3rd Noble Truth about the End of Suffering, that both you & I have travelled in this round of rebirth for so long! It is because of not penetrating & not understanding this 4th Noble Truth about the Way to End Suffering, that both you & I have travelled this round of rebirth so long! When, friends, this 1st Noble Truth about Suffering, this 2nd Noble Truth about the Cause of Suffering, this 3rd Noble Truth about the End of Suffering & this 4th Noble Truth about the Method to End Suffering, have been fully penetrated & all understood, then this craving, this urge, for ever renewed becoming is cut all off at the very root, then the tendency to return back to birth, decay, ageing & death is entirely eliminated, then there is no further drift, no further coming & going, no further falling into being! Friends, Ending all Suffering without having broken through and completely realized the 4 Noble Truths about Pain, it's Origin, it's Ceasing & the Method to Cease all Pain, as they really are - that is really quite impossible... However, Ending all Suffering after having broken through and completely realized the 4 Noble Truths about Misery, it's Creator, it's Stilling & the Way to End Misery, as they really are - that is indeed quite possible... May all beings by this Noble Way, come to calm, ease, freedom & bliss... Yeah! Source of inspiration: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya V 431-2 + 452 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49934 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 537 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga, which is part of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or companions of enlightenment. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'P-F of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'P-F of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'P-F of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'P-F of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'P-F of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'P-F of right concentration' (ekaggataa) There are middle three factors. They are 'siila magganga or moral- group of path-factors'. They are right speech, right action and right livelihood. Right speech has been explained. The Buddha said 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaa-kammanto? Pa.naatipaataa veramani, adinnaadaanaa veramani, kaamesu- micchaacaaraa veramani. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa-kammanto'. The Buddha said 'Which are right actions? Avoidance of killing beings, avoidance of stealing ungiven things, avoidance of misconducting on sensuous matters. These can be called 'right actions'. Kaamesu = kaama_senses + esu_on, at, in, to Micchacaara = micchaa_wrong, bad, incorrect + caara_practice, action Veramani = avoidance May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 nilovg Hi Phil, Each citta conditions the next citta by way of proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya. It is succeeded by the next citta and thus all experiences, good and bad inclinations are accumulated. This happens throughout life and also from life to life. That is also the reason why kamma of a past life can produce result in the future. Nina. op 10-09-2005 03:01 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> I ask because she places so much emphasis on accumulations, but > the >> Buddha did not. > > That's a good reason to ask. > BTW, I don't understand the mechanics of acccumulations either. I > have posted about that a few times. If a citta falls away > completely, with "no storehouse" as Vism (?) puts it, how can > factors be accumulated? But I am willing to postpone understanding > in that area because it makes so much sense that of course our > hatred and greed and ignorance are accumulated. 49936 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:57am Subject: Regarding Accumulations (Re: ..........Bhikkhu Samahita help us!!) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" > wrote: > > > Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > > > > > > > Which things can enable the realization of Stream-Entry? > > > > > > > > Bhikkhus & friends, these four states, when developed & made > much > > > > of leads to the realization of the fruit of Stream-Entry > > > > (sottapatti-phala)! > > > > > Which four ? > > > > > Meeting, frequenting, listening to & waiting on pure & truly > great > > men. > > > Hearing, reading & reflecting on the true ideas of the Saddhamma. > > > Practice in accordance with this original & genuine Saddhamma. > > > Continuous, careful & rational Attention thereto... > > > > I am just glad that "wholesome accumulations" is not one of those > > factors! > > > > Regards, > > Swee Boon > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, > > > > May we ask you to help us understanding 'which four things can > enable > > realization of stream entry'? Is accumulation one of these 4 > factors? > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Hello all, > > Regarding accumulations - some definitions from the PED: > > Pubbavasana (p. 467) an impression remaining in the mind from former > actions Sn 1009; ThA 31 (Ap. v. 8). > > Vasana (p. 610) (f.) [fr. vasati2 = vasa2, but by Rh. D., following > the P. Com. connected with vaseti & vasa3] that which remains in the > mind, tendencies of the past, impression, usually as pubba° former > impression (Sn 1009; Miln 10, 263). -- Cp. Nett 4, 21, 48, 128, 133 > sq., 153, 158 sq., 189 sq. -- Cp. BSk. vasana, e. g. MVastu I.345. > > metta and peace, > Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, Thanks for your post. But it is not what we have been discussing, I think. Vasana is different. Regarding vasana; All arahats do not do any kusala or akusala. They all are free of any defilements. Only one thing. They cannot eliminate 'vasana'. Those who speak very fast will continue so after attainment of arahatship even though their speech become right one. Those who walk fast will continue to do so even though they may have pure mind. Only The Buddha can eradicate vasanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I hope you will link a site about vasana. 49937 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:06am Subject: Re: Cambodian ....(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3. No guru of yours? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > I read your dialogue (#49895) with Guru Sukin and have a few > responses. > > (I) Htoo: > > You have a good 'insight' into the matter. Good discussions. I do not > think our discussions are very long. Even if long they should be paid > attention to explore what is what. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > (II) Htoo: > > Of course. I do not know whether I rightly understand Dhamma. But I > think I understand Dhamma rightly. > > Expression-wise I have been trying to express in the most appropriate > style or way. If something wrong in my message it may well related to > my language usage. > > Examples; I wrote ebook on 'Patthaana Dhamma', which I frequently > advertised. Only Tep gave me a comment that 'that ebook should be > read by scholars and ask them what are wrong'. No one except Tep > give me any comments. But I am not looking forward to any comments. > That ebook is for the welfare of all, who read it. If you have a small > interest and read that you can give me comments offl-list. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > (III) Htoo: > > Actually this is good of you, kind of you. Sarah also kindly helps in this > matter of expression in indirect way. Sarah, Robert K, you and > many others here at DSG are my gurus to be honest. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Tep's Response > ------------------------ > > (I) When you listen to someone, please try to look beyond the smooth > flow of words -- where is the real subtance? Is the glib talker a do-er, a > do-nothinger, or a thinker (philosopher)? Many voters have elected > political candidates mainly because of their communication skill, fame, > family name, or look. > > (II) You quoted me on your e-book. But I cannot recall giving that > comment ('that ebook should be read by scholars and ask them what > are wrong'). The sentence does not make much sense to me. But it > doesn't matter, just keep in mind that I shall be more than happy to > review your future articles for you (if you see some value in my review). > Notice that there is neither 'lobha' nor 'atta' behind my offer. > > (III) I am really glad that I am not one of your gurus, Htoo. Let's be just > dhamma friends. > > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your post. You catched all main points. Regarding friendship as we always sign when we exchange off-list we are always friends. Regarding 'Patthana Dhamma', once I linked one of the pages at DSG or other groups. You did give me a comment on that page. I think it is in the portion of 'Hetu Paccaya'. At that time you told me that that pages should be read by students and asked them any flaws. I think at that time I asked for editing and you just denied. But it is OK, whatever it is. The problem of ebook is that I cannot edit it. I tried to edit the first page and it went wrong. So I do not dare to touch again. Because all pages are linked in some way. Friend always, Htoo 49938 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Swee - Tep: Right. You did not ask him. I am sorry for jumping to the conclusion. Sincerely, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, There are different reasons in asking questions and there are 4 different ways to respond questions. To be honest, I am still learning Dhamma even though you and other may sense that I have solid knowledge of Dhamma. I am trying to verify English words in my mind. I have no tatse in the word 'accumulation'. Ha ha. Even someone use this word 'accumulation' as some word like swearing word. Stephen of dhamma- list knows well that person. Example; accumulate with your akusala etc etc. Whenever Bhikkhu Samahita posts, the scripts enter my mind blank. I have to concentrate a lot whenever I read that poetic expression of simple English. Examples are perfume shop, flower shop etc etc. But these are in Milanda Pa~n~naa. With regards, Htoo Naing 49939 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 538 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga, which is part of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or companions of enlightenment. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'P-F of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'P-F of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'P-F of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'P-F of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'P-F of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'P-F of right concentration' (ekaggataa) Among the middle three path-factors which are in the siila-maggangas or 'moral-group of path-factors', sammaa-aajiiva is one factor. It is livelihood that obtain living on pure and avoidance of gaining from misconduct on speech or actions. It is the living or livelihood of arahats and ariyas. The Buddha said 'Katame ca bhikkhave sammaa-aajiivo? Idha bhikkhave ariya saavako micchaa aajiiva.m pahaaya sammaa-aajiive neva jiivitam kappeti. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa-aajiivo.' The Buddha said 'Which is right livelihood? O! Monks, in this dispensation of mine where ariyaa-saavako or saintly pure disciple of mine while avoiding wrong livelihood just stays on right livelihood. This can be called right livelihood. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 49940 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: Just a burning Flash ... !!! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > Little and short pleasure, but Loong and Painful Tribulation! To whom it concerns I think it's better to say: don't be afraid of your sense-desires Just observe them. And don't be afraid for your future. Just let is come Metta Joop > > Pleasures obtained by contact at the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind > all fade away and vanish instantly, when their contact ceases! They are all: > Like a drop of honey on the edge of a razor blade: Short joy, but much pain! > Like a show seen in a flash of lightening: Momentary & exceedingly fleeting! > Like a drink made thin & tasteless: Dissatisfying, frustrating & disappointing! > Like food all rotten inside or poisoned: Afflicting and causing problems later! > Like a baited hook: First juicy, later torturing and tormenting & finally Fatal! > Like an inner cage: Imprisoning, punishing, bonding, addicting and making mad! > Like sleeping in an enemy's village: Dangerous, hazardous, treacherous & risky! > Like a burning hollow tree: Agitated inside, feverish, frantic, violently painful! > Like a chain of dry naked bare bones: Not healing any hunger, without nutrition! > Like many days of drinking only salt water: Worsening any thirst & dehydrating! > Please note the ceasing of sensation, whenever sensing & remember this danger! > This is the primary hindrance to break, the first flood to cross: Sense-Desire...!!! > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ > PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then > will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! > > <....> 49941 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi James & Tep, > Why would a sotapanna like Prince Siddartha be afraid of the first > jhana? > I think I missed something along the way; I have a hard time keeping > up with posts. Who said that Siddartha Gotama was a sotapanna? > Siddhartha couldn't have been a sotapanna, he became a fully > enlightened Buddha. Only arahants can go through the stages of > sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner, and arahant. A Buddha goes > through a difference process of perfecting the paramis and then > becomes a Buddha, at no point would a Buddha be a sotapanna. > > Am I missing something? James, you are obviously missing something. Tep said that Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna. I disagreed. I am just asking Tep the above question with the assumption that Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna. Regards, Swee Boon 49942 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. sarahprocter... Hi Dan (& Colette), I thought your reply with the sutta, 'Bondage' and kind comments was very beautiful and appropriate. A good reminder for us all, thank you. Metta, Sarah --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Colette, > One of my favorite passages in the Nikayas is from S III(10) -- a > short sutta called "Bondage". I'll just type it out: > > "Now on that occasion a great mass of people had been put in bondage > by King Pasenadi of Kosala -- some with ropes, some with clogs, some > with chains. Then, in the morning, a number bhikkhus dressed...and > said to the Blessed One: 'Here, venerable sir, a great mass of people > have been put in bondage by Kindg Pasenadi of Kosala, some with > ropes, some with clogs, some with chains.' > > "Then the Blessed One, having understood the meaning of this, on that > occasion recited these verses: > > 'That bond, the wise say, is not strong > Made of iron, wood, or rope; > But infatuation with jewellery and earrings, > Anxious concern for wives and children-- > This, the wise say, is the strong bond, > Degrading, supple, hard to escape. > But even this they cut and wander forth, > Unconcerned, having abandoned sensual pleasures." > > > I think his point is that getting worked up about politics (as the > bhikkhus were doing) or about pursuit of sense desires or about > worries about the physical, external, material conditions one finds > onself in or may one day find oneself in -- all of that is binding, > and does not liberate in any way. It's the "getting worked up" > oneself that's the problem, not the material conditions or > what "those other people" are doing that are the ultimate cause of > the suffering. <...> 49943 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Thank you for this! I have long maintained that there is a > distinction to > be made between the mere khandhas and the khandhas afflicted by > clinging, but > in the past I have gotten the impression that some good folks here on > DSG > don't recognize a distinction. What you have written here, yourself, and > what you > quote from Buddhaghosa really please me. They are clear and to the > point. ... S: Thanks, Howard and also Nina. I think it also helps us to see why the lokuttara cittas cannot be upadana khandha -- they are not experienced now, so there cannot be clinging to them. While we're talking about agreement, Howard, I also thought your comments on accumulations and conditions in a couple of recent posts were very good and well-considered (sorry, no link handy). Metta, Sarah p.s hope you had a good trip to Texas with family. ================================================== 49944 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi James & Tep, > > > Why would a sotapanna like Prince Siddartha be afraid of the first > > jhana? > > > I think I missed something along the way; I have a hard time keeping > > up with posts. Who said that Siddartha Gotama was a sotapanna? > > Siddhartha couldn't have been a sotapanna, he became a fully > > enlightened Buddha. Only arahants can go through the stages of > > sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner, and arahant. A Buddha goes > > through a difference process of perfecting the paramis and then > > becomes a Buddha, at no point would a Buddha be a sotapanna. > > > > Am I missing something? > > James, you are obviously missing something. > > Tep said that Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna. I disagreed. > > I am just asking Tep the above question with the assumption that > Prince Siddartha was a sotapanna. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Oh, okay. Then I agree with you and disagree with Tep. I will try to backtrack through this thread and find out Tep's reasoning and your counter arguments. School starts tomorrow though so it may take a while. Metta, James 49945 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Tep, > Because he was no longer afraid of a sensual pleasure or > any "unskillful mental qualities", it means that he was able to > overcome sensual-based pleasure with the consciousness far above > unwholesome dhammas. I don't understand you. The Buddha-to-be did not say that he was no longer afraid of sensual pleasures or unskillful mental qualities. He said that he was no longer afraid of jhanic pleasures. > But the unworldling pleasure being experienced during the jhanic > state must be so huge that it was hard to bear by his weakened > body after several days of starving ( "body so extremely emaciated" > ). So I think the Ariyan Siddartha could not help feeling shaken a > bit by the overwhelming piti and sukha. Huh? The reason the Buddha-to-be consumed food was because "it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated". It's not because he would feel shaken by jhanic pleasures. Your explanation does not convince me. Let me give you what I think (assuming Prince Siddartha was a worldling and there is only one system of jhanas): The Buddha-to-be went forth under two teachers who taught him the dimension of nothingness and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Assuming that to achieve the latter dimension, one needs to achieve also the seven lower dimensions (1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana, dimension of space, dimension of infinite consciousness, dimension of nothingness). It is a well-known fact that to achieve the 4th jhana, one must abandon both pleasure and pain, elation and distress associated with the three lower jhanas. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/ index.html With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- And to achieve the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, one needs to also achieve the 4th jhana. To achieve the 4th jhana, one needs to abandon the pleasure associated with the three lower jhanas. Can you sense how much the Buddha-to-be had disdain for the pleasures of the three lower jhanas? He was afraid of those pleasures, because it would mean that he would be bound to the three lower jhanas and could not achieve anything higher. But something happened that made him had even greater disdain for those pleasures of the three lower jhanas. He realized that even the highest dimension of neither perception nor non-perception does not lead to unbinding. Disappointed, he was convinced that the practice of the eight jhanas was not the path to awakening. An inner dread for jhanic pleasures is subconsciously imprinted in his mind. Thereafter, he went away on his own and tried all sorts of painful striving to no avail. ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x-tb0.html "I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' ------------------------------------------------------------------ After failing in all these utmost painful striving, he recalled the first time he entered the first jhana as a young boy. Suddenly, a flash of insight strike him: "Hey, that first jhana, those pleasurable feelings that come with it, has got nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities! Why then do I have so much disdain for it? Why then am I so afraid of it? There isn't anything terrible about it! Could this be the path to awakening? It could be. Maybe. It should be. No, no, no. It must be!" And there goes the rest of the story. Regards, Swee Boon 49946 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/10/05 9:39:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: p.s hope you had a good trip to Texas with family. ===================== Thanks! It was wonderful! Thanks also for you comments on my recent posting. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49947 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:23am Subject: Re: beggars, social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hello Nina > I just heard on MP3 about asubha and I thought of a remark you made some > time ago. You found that asubha, foulness counteracts lobha. It can happen. That relection on asubha does arise on occasion. And there are the other antidotes (I know you don't like that word - I don't either anymore but can't think of a better word now) that arise. Metta (if it arises), reflection on the object of lust as one' sister or daughter, reflection that one is declining in wholesome ways, reflection on the harm one does through lust and so on. We learned about those in your thread on the "removal of distracting thoughts" sutta. There is also a sutta in which the Buddha or another venerable is asked how the black-haired monks don't give in to lust, and several kind of reflection are mentioned. I forget the details now. In my case, it is usally an awareness of how much lust I have accumulated, and a simple momentary intention (conditioned of course) not to accumulate more at that moment. That is samvega, I guess. > Kh Sujin read the example of Mahaa Tissa who saw a girl laughing but he just > paid attention to the bones of her teeth. He attained arahatship. But my understanding is that to have that kind of insight one must already be enlightened. Inspiring to read about, but not for us. "He stopped at seeing" is the line used in that sutta, if I'm not mistaken. For the citta processes to "stop at seeing" one must already be arahant, I would have thought. > We are not yet a corpse but we sure shall be. This can condition samvega, a > sense of urgency, so that we are less infatuated with what we see and > perceive. > When I look at my hand, it is not difficult to see it as the hand of a > corpse. It can remind me, waken me up, so that I do not waste my short life > away with forgetfulness. My hand on the keyboard often looks very wrinkled and it reminds me. I have never been horrified by it. Here in Japan we see women who are so frightened of the natural process of ageing that they carry parasols even on heavily overcast days. Spend their lives hiding from UV rays to that degree. What suffering. Sometimes there is karuna, but usually I have very mean, smug thoughts about them. > There is also another side to it: lobha for samvega. Or trying to see > corpses when looking at people, and this is unnatural. Lobha always creeping > in! Yes, on occasion, I go to a website where we can see victims of accidents, murder, the hurricane. I look at the corpses to see how I will respond. That is going too far. Morbid curiosity, not samvega. > What you say about metta: having a being, thus a concept, as object is > correct. We should not despise concepts. Don't worry. When I speak of losing interest in people, I am talkin in momentary terms. It seems to me that when there is mindfulness of nama and rupa there could not be interest in people at that moment. Well, maybe there is more than that. I am not as interested in reading novels, don't appreciate the conflicts of characters in novels and dramas. Their problems could all be solved by right understanding of the Buddha's teaching, I think. When I listen to students' problems, when I am fully present, there is great interest in people, metta quite often, karuna quite often. I am not becoming colder towards people, don't worry. A question re metta - I guess I was confused, because sati cannot have a concept as object, and there must be sati when there is a wholesome citta, right? So the metta arises with a concept (person) as object, and the sati with the metta as object? Sati cannot have a person as an object, right? >I wrote before that I find the > Brahma viharas important for my social life. At the same time the Abhidhamma > helps to develop them in the right way, not taking for kusala what is > selfish affection. Yes, exactly. Or pleasant feeling. We can't use brahma-viharas, they arise due to conditions. If we use them intentionally, it is something else at work. Not necessarily a bad thing, can help us to be less harmful to others, in the short run, but it is lobha, not brahma-viharas. Well, maybe it is a bad thing, come to think of it. There is wrong view involved when we misunderstand the Buddha's teaching it and apply it in will-ful ways. BTW, again, I am finding that I am coming back to considering the paramis thanks to listening to Lodewijk. They might help me to develop kusala, I think, so that I don't become entirely fixed on eradicating akusala and will help me to have that healthy balance of interest in ultimate and conventional realities. > BTW the anaagaami has eradicated liking persons, their appearance, because > he has no more clinging to sense objects. OK. One of these days I will remember this sort of thing. Thanks for explaining so often. Phil 49948 From: nina Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:25am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia. 4 nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 49949 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee (and all) - [Part 1 of Tep's reply to Swee's message # 49945.] I am more pleased with your positive tone that underlies the message # 49945. Thank you for being (more) patient and methodically examining the diametrical views step by step. Let me respond with the same attitude. In the previous message, I wrote: >Tep : I assume that the words "to be afraid of" mean "be shaken" >or " be overwhelmed". Because he was no longer afraid of a sensual >pleasure or any "unskillful mental qualities", it means that he was able >to overcome sensual-based pleasure with the consciousness far above unwholesome dhammas. But the unworldling pleasure being >experienced during the jhanic state must be so huge that it was hard to >bear by his weakened body after several days of starving ( "body so >extremely emaciated"). So I think the Ariyan Siddartha could not help >feeling shaken a bit by the overwhelming piti and sukha. Swee: I don't understand you. The Buddha-to-be did not say that he was no longer afraid of sensual pleasures or unskillful mental qualities. He said that he was no longer afraid of jhanic pleasures. The reason the Buddha-to-be consumed food was because "it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated".It's not because he would feel shaken by jhanic pleasures. Your explanation does not convince me. Tep: Sorry for confusing you -- no, the Prince did not say that he was no longer afraid of sensual pleasures or unskillful mental qualities; I said it myself. I just wanted to emphasize that he was far above the worldling level because he was no longer overwhelmed by those sensual pressures and defilements. And he did talk a little about the fear of the wholesome pleasure : " I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' " If he was not afraid of them, why did he mention the fear? You also thought he was afraid of jhanic pleasures, because you asked : > Swee (message #49921): Why would a sotapanna like Prince >Siddartha be afraid of the first jhana? > That is a minor issue, though. ------------------------- Swee: It is a well-known fact that to achieve the 4th jhana, one must abandon both pleasure and pain, elation and distress associated with the three lower jhanas. Tep: Your sutta support is based on the 4th jhana of samma-samadhi in SN XLV.8. "With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain." After having pointed out to you in a number of previous messages about the difference between the 4 jhanas of samma-samadhi (discovered by the Buddha) and those old jhanas (taught by Uddaka Raamaputta ), yet it seems to me that we are now back to the beginning again. So here again let me refresh your memory by giving a sample of the previous messages as follows. In my last DSG message # 49822 I wrote the following. >Tep: Prince Siddartha learned both (old) rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana >from Uddaka Raamaputta as is evidence by the folowing quote: 'This >Teaching does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, >appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to >the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception only. Not satisfied >I turned away from it'. The Prince rejected the kind of jhanas that did >not lead to enlightenment. I belief that the stated inadequacies in Uddaka Raamaputta 's jhana system is indeed a solid proof that there was an old jhana and a new jhana that surely leads to Enlightenment. He searched for the new jhana and found it. >Tep (message # 49822 ): The the Prince, after returning to food and >gained back his strength, entered into the jhana system he knew >since he was young and living with his father. He wanted to know if >such "first jhana" really was "the path to enlightenment." " Partaking coarse food and gaining strength, secluded from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I attained to the first jhaana. Aggivessana, even those arisen pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, with the mind internally appeased, and brought to a single point, without thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I attained to the second jhaana. Aggivessana, even those arisen pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. With equanimity to joy and detachment abode mindful and aware, and with the body experienced pleasantness and attained to the third jhaana. To this abiding the noble ones said, abiding mindfully in pleasantness. Aggivessana, even those pleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness, and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, without unpleasantness and pleasantness and mindfulness purified with equanimity, I attained to the fourth jhaana." [MN 36, quoted in DSG # 49822.] The above is a solid proof that Prince Saddartha achieved samma- samadhi. By MN 117 samma-samadhi is supported by the other seven path factors; so it shows that he truly entered the Stream. My conclusion has been that he was an Ariya puggala (at least a Sotapanna, but below the Arahant level). This reply is too long now. It is difficult to read a long message (as you have demonstrated), so let me pause here and wait for your input first. I know there are several issues of yours remaining, but I will addressed them in a later message. Warm regards, Tep ============ P.S. The second half of your message that I plan to answer later is left unsnipped below. ========================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- samadhi/ > index.html > > With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier > disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And to achieve the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception, one needs to also achieve the 4th jhana. To achieve the 4th jhana, one needs to abandon the pleasure associated with the three lower jhanas. > > Can you sense how much the Buddha-to-be had disdain for the pleasures of the three lower jhanas? > > He was afraid of those pleasures, because it would mean that he would be bound to the three lower jhanas and could not achieve anything higher. > > But something happened that made him had even greater disdain for > those pleasures of the three lower jhanas. > > He realized that even the highest dimension of neither perception nor > non-perception does not lead to unbinding. > > Disappointed, he was convinced that the practice of the eight jhanas > was not the path to awakening. > > An inner dread for jhanic pleasures is subconsciously imprinted in his > mind. > > Thereafter, he went away on his own and tried all sorts of painful > striving to no avail. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x-tb0.html > > "I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt > painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the > utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or > contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing > feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be > greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present > are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, > this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking > practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, > any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could > there be another path to Awakening?' > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > After failing in all these utmost painful striving, he recalled the > first time he entered the first jhana as a young boy. > > Suddenly, a flash of insight strike him: > > "Hey, that first jhana, those pleasurable feelings that come with it, > has got nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful > mental qualities! Why then do I have so much disdain for it? Why then > am I so afraid of it? There isn't anything terrible about it! Could > this be the path to awakening? It could be. Maybe. It should be. No, > no, no. It must be!" > > And there goes the rest of the story. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 49950 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Cambodian ....(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3. No guru of yours? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Let's meet off the list via our personal emails. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your post. You catched all main points. Regarding > friendship as we always sign when we exchange off-list we are always friends. > 49951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: beggars, social life and paramatthas. nilovg Hi Phil, I am glad you mention this. op 10-09-2005 18:23 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > A question re metta - I guess I was confused, because sati cannot > have a concept as object, and there must be sati when there is a > wholesome citta, right? So the metta arises with a concept (person) > as object, and the sati with the metta as object? Sati cannot have a > person as an object, right? ------- N: Yes, it can, it has the same object as the metta citta: a person. Sati of satipatthana has nama or rupa as object. Last night I was listening to Lodewijk reading, Ch 4, renunciation. Here Kh Sujin explained that there may not be sati of the level of satipatthana, but, when the paramis are developed there is a refined kind of sati which is accumulated and can support sati of satipatthana. I had forgotten this point. It is helpful to understand this rightly, but of course we can also turn it the wrong way with lobha: wanting the right conditions. She speaks about developing a degree of detachment in seemingly unimportant things of daily life, as to eating, liking hot or cold water, but we talked about that. (the ofuro). Lodewijk reads with such conviction that we should not neglect any of the paramis. Nina. 49952 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Your style in answering questions and your way to approach the Dhamma are very unique and, at times, unpredictable. Htoo wrote: > I have to concentrate a lot whenever I read that poetic expression of > simple English. Examples are perfume shop, flower shop etc etc. But > these are in Milanda Pa~n~naa. > Tep: What about those perfume and flower shops? I love the Milinda Panha, Htoo. May I make a formal request that you present a series of selected paragraphs from the book? This series will be very useful indeed, at least in my opinion. Sincerely, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, > > There are different reasons in asking questions and there are 4 > different ways to respond questions. 49953 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > The above is a solid proof that Prince Saddartha achieved samma- > samadhi. By MN 117 samma-samadhi is supported by the other seven > path factors; so it shows that he truly entered the Stream. My conclusion > has been that he was an Ariya puggala (at least a Sotapanna, but > below the Arahant level). Could you explain more what you mean here? As I see it, it is not appropriate to describe Siddartha Gotama as "at least a Sotapanna, but below the Arahant level". Siddartha Gotama was a Buddha-to-be, not an Arahant-to-be*. Being a Sotapanna leads only to becoming an Arahant, never a Buddha. The Sotapanna is a stream winner and is guaranteed enlightenment as an Arahant within seven lifetimes, but he/she cannot become a Buddha. Do you understand what I am saying? Actually, a Sotapanna is inferior in wisdom to Siddarthat Gotama who was to be a Buddha. Siddartha was a Bodhisatta, not a Sotapanna. As illustration I will quote from DN 14 "The Great Discourse of the Lineage" where the Buddha describes the seven previous Buddhas, their lives, and their enlightenments, and how they all follow exactly the same pattern (which doesn't include becoming sotapanna in this universal fixed law): "And so, monks, the Bodhisatta Vipassi descended from the Tusita heaven, mindful and clearly aware, into his mother's womb. This, monks, is the rule. It is the rule, monks, that when a Bodhisatta descends from the Tusita heaven into his mother's womb, there appears in this world with its devas, maras and Brahmas, its ascetics and Brahmins, princes and people an immeasurable, splendid light surpassing the glory of the most powerful devas. And whatever dark spaces lie beyond the worldn't end, chaotic, blind and black, sucha that they are not even reached by the mighty rays of the sun and moon, are yet illuminated by this immeasurable spendid light surpassing the glory of the most powerful devas. And those beings that have been reborn there recognize each other by this light and know: "Other being, too, have been born here!" And this ten-thousandfold-world-system trembles and quakes and is convulsed. And this immeasurable light shines forth. That is the rule." (Not available on-line). Metta, James *By Arahant I mean someone who is enlightened, no longer destined for rebirth, but doesn't have the ability to teach the dhamma in its entirety. A Buddha is also referred to sometimes as an Arahant but in that context the label has a different meaning. 49954 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I apologize for the confusion. I think there are two main points I have made. 1) There was an old jhana taught by non-Buddhist before the Buddha discovered the jhana system that led to enlightenment. 2) Prince Siddartha, after finishing with the last teacher (who taught him arupa-jhana that led to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non- perception), later on attained samma-samadhi (see MN 36) through the 4 jhanas that are based on viveka and nekkhamma. But this 8th path factor is well supported by the seven other factors (see MN 117). Thus he clearly had entered the Stream and became an Ariyan. So far, these two points are hard enough to defend and, I believe, the debate will still be going on even after your school semester is over. May you have a very productive and satisfying semester. Sincerely, Tep ============ > > Oh, okay. Then I agree with you and disagree with Tep. I will try > to backtrack through this thread and find out Tep's reasoning and > your counter arguments. School starts tomorrow though so it may > take a while. > > Metta, > James 49955 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:05pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I submitted a message almost at the same time that you did # 49953. James: As I see it, it is not appropriate to describe Siddartha Gotama as "at least a Sotapanna, but below the Arahant level". Siddartha Gotama was a Buddha-to-be, not an Arahant-to-be*. Being a Sotapanna leads only to becoming an Arahant, never a Buddha. ... Actually, a Sotapanna is inferior in wisdom to Siddarthat Gotama who was to be a Buddha. Siddartha was a Bodhisatta, not a Sotapanna. Tep: Thank you for clearly explaining the difference between Sotapanna on the path to Arahant and the enlightenment path of a Bodhisatta toward Buddhahood. I was not technically correct. I understand why you disagree with me on this issue. I am glad that "Siddartha Gotama who was to be a Buddha" was at a higher level than even an Ariyan. Because my main point that I try to defend has been that the jhana system discovered by Siddartha is superior and different from the old jhana that existed prior to his enlightenment. Thank you for your supporting statements and clarification that have helped me see the whole issue with wider perspective. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > As illustration I will quote from DN 14 "The Great Discourse of the > Lineage" where the Buddha describes the seven previous Buddhas, > their lives, and their enlightenments, and how they all follow > exactly the same pattern (which doesn't include becoming sotapanna > in this universal fixed law): > > "And so, monks, the Bodhisatta Vipassi descended from the Tusita > heaven, mindful and clearly aware, into his mother's womb. This, > monks, is the rule. > > It is the rule, monks, that when a Bodhisatta descends from the > Tusita heaven into his mother's womb, there appears in this world > with its devas, maras and Brahmas, its ascetics and Brahmins, > princes and people an immeasurable, splendid light surpassing the > glory of the most powerful devas. And whatever dark spaces lie > beyond the worldn't end, chaotic, blind and black, sucha that they > are not even reached by the mighty rays of the sun and moon, are yet > illuminated by this immeasurable spendid light surpassing the glory > of the most powerful devas. And those beings that have been reborn > there recognize each other by this light and know: "Other being, > too, have been born here!" And this ten-thousandfold-world-system > trembles and quakes and is convulsed. And this immeasurable light > shines forth. That is the rule." > (Not available on-line). > > Metta, > James > *By Arahant I mean someone who is enlightened, no longer destined > for rebirth, but doesn't have the ability to teach the dhamma in its > entirety. A Buddha is also referred to sometimes as an Arahant but > in that context the label has a different meaning. 49956 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Tep, > I am more pleased with your positive tone that underlies the message > # 49945. Thank you for being (more) patient and methodically > examining the diametrical views step by step. Let me respond with > the same attitude. As I have said, my thinking on why he was afraid of the jhanic pleasures is based on the assumption that he was a worldling and there is only one system of jhanas. I have no intention to discuss about whether he is a sotapanna or there are "old" and "new" systems of jhanas. That is closed for now. > >Tep: Prince Siddartha learned both (old) rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana > >from Uddaka Raamaputta as is evidence by the folowing quote: 'This > >Teaching does not lead to giving up, detachment, cessation, > >appeasement, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It leads up to > >the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception only. Not > >satisfied I turned away from it'. The Prince rejected the kind of > >jhanas that did not lead to enlightenment. Everyone knows that the mere attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception does not lead to unbinding. It leads to rebirth in the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. > I belief that the stated inadequacies in Uddaka Raamaputta 's jhana > system is indeed a solid proof that there was an old jhana and a > new jhana that surely leads to Enlightenment. He searched for the > new jhana and found it. I don't believe! This is not solid proof to me anyway. > >Tep (message # 49822 ): The the Prince, after returning to food and > >gained back his strength, entered into the jhana system he knew > >since he was young and living with his father. He wanted to know if > >such "first jhana" really was "the path to enlightenment." My view: He rediscovered the pleasures of the first jhana that he had been trying to suppress all this while. Regards, Swee Boon 49957 From: "seisen_au" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas seisen_au Hi Sarah and All, Thanks for raising this topic again. My understanding is that the key terms in understanding the distinction between the khandhas and the upadanakhandhas are `saasava.m upaadaaniya.m', Translated by ~Naa.moli as `subject to cankers and are liable to clingings'. Page 580 of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (U Kyaw Khine translation) has: What are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m): There are meritorious, demeritorious and neither-meritorious-nor- demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, the fine material sphere and the Non-material sphere which are the aggregate of corporeality, feeling, perception and the aggregate of consciousness. These are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas Katame dhammaa saasavaa? Kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa, aruupaavacaraa; ruupakkhandho …pe… vi~n~naa.nakkhandho– ime dhammaa saasavaa. The only dhammaa that are not objects of the asavas are the supramundane paths, fruits and the unconditioned element. > First, to repeat, there are two meanings of `upaadaanakkhandhaa': > > a) All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of > upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana > (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls > away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye- base > whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. I'm not sure about this. Dhammasangani p.629 states that the only dhammaa that are not objects of clinging are the supramundane paths, fruits and the unconditioned element. These Dhammasangani passages seem to support Bhikkhu Bodhi comment on page 1058 of Samyutta Nikaya that: saasava and upaadaaniya do not mean "accompanied by taints and by clinging" but "capable of being taken as objects of the taints and of clinging" - Steve 49958 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:39pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > I have no intention to discuss about whether he is a sotapanna or > there are "old" and "new" systems of jhanas. That is closed for now. > I agree with you, Swee. Let's spend our time doing something else. Regards, Tep =========== 49959 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:01pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > From my understanding, wisdom isn't accumulated, wisdom arises > because of conditions. Take these explanations about wisdom from > The Questions of King Milinda: > > The king said: 'Venerable Nâgasena, where does wisdom dwell?' > 'Nowhere, O king.' > 'Then, Sir, there is no such thing as wisdom.' > 'Where does the wind dwell, O king?' > 'Not anywhere, Sir.' > 'So there is no such thing as wind.' > 'Well answered, Nâgasena!' > ******************************* > 'And what, Nâgasena, on the other hand, has then become of his > wisdom?' > 'When the reasoning wisdom has effected that which it has to do, > then the reasoning wisdom ceases to go on. But that which has been > acquired by means of it remains--the knowledge, to wit, of the > impermanence of every being, of the suffering inherent in > individuality, and of the absence of any soul.' > 'Give me an illustration, reverend Sir, of what you have last said.' > 'It is as when a man wants, during the night, to send a letter, and > after having his clerk called, has a lamp lit, and gets the letter > written. Then, when that has been done, he extinguishes the lamp. > But though the lamp had been put out the writing would still be > there. Thus does reasoning wisdom cease, and knowledge remain.' > ******************* > The king said: 'Venerable Nâgasena, how many kinds of wisdom are > there?' > 'Seven, O king.' > 'And by how many kinds of Wisdom does one become wise?' > 'By one: that is to say by the kind of wisdom called "the > investigation of the Truth 1."' > 'Then why is it said there are seven?' > 'Tell me, O king. Suppose a sword were lying in its sheath and not > taken in the hand, could it cut off anything you wanted to cut off > with it?' > 'Certainly not.' > 'Just so, great king, by the other kinds of wisdom can nothing be > understood without investigation of the Truth.' > 'Very good, Nâgasena!' > ***************************** > 'Gotama the Bodisat had gone forth from the world, O king, when his > knowledge 4 was immature, and his wisdom was immature. And it was > when he was bringing that immature knowledge to maturity that he > carried out the penance.' > 19. 'Why then, Nâgasena, was it that he thus went forth with > knowledge and with wisdom immatured? Why did he not first mature his > knowledge, and then, with his knowledge matured, renounce the world?' > ******************* > Metta, > James Dear James, They are good passages from the Minda panha. Wisdom arises from conditions it is true, but one of those conditions is pakatúpanissaya-paccaya (decisive support of natural condition) and so wisdom we have developed in the past can condition wisdom to arise now. Accumulations (asaanuasaya )sp?) include both akusala and kusala. They are the habits, good and bad that wax or wane depending on many conditions. In the passage above you quoted it says: "'Gotama the Bodisat had gone forth from the world, O king, when his > knowledge 4 was immature, and his wisdom was immature. And it was > when he was bringing that immature knowledge to maturity that he > carried out the penance.'" So it matures by becomeing a habit, by accumulation over this life and many lives. Robertk 49960 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:56pm Subject: Fwd: Request for Theravada Proof-readers christine_fo... Hello, If there is anyone who would like to help out proofreading Theravada books which will be used for printing and putting on the internet by the Buddhist Publication Society, a small non-profit Theravada Buddhist publishing house then please let me know. We need some qualified native speakers to help with this important work. At the moment there are a few booklets by the Mahasi Sayadaw on meditation, the Experience of Insight by J. Goldstein, Being Nobody Going Nowhere by Ayya Khema, Sacred Island by S. Dhammika, Dana by Bh. Bodhi, etc. Please send some little explanation why you think you can help. Mettaya, Bhikkhu Nyanatusita Editor BPS Kandy Sri Lanka e-mail: nyanatusita@... Bhikkhu Nyanatusita Forest Hermitage Kandy Sri Lanka 49961 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:50pm Subject: Uprooting Egoism ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: No Identical Identity Exists neither Internally nor Externally! I do not regard any form as 'This I Am' or 'I am' as if 'inside' any form, nor do I regard 'This I Am' as 'apart from' any form or as if 'outside' any form! I do not regard any feeling, perception or mental construction as 'This I Am' or 'I am' as if 'inside' any feeling, perception or mental construction, nor do I regard 'This I Am' as 'apart from' any feeling, perception or mentally made construction or as if 'outside' any feeling, perception or mental construction! I do not regard any consciousness as 'This I Am' or 'I am' as if 'inside' any consciousness, nor do I regard 'This I Am' as 'apart from' any consciousness or as if 'outside' any consciousness ... !!! Yet, although this notion, this conception, this assuming, this conceiving, this imagination, this mental fermentation, this false reference 'I Am' has not yet vanished in me, still I do not consider anything neither internal nor external, neither among these five clusters nor apart from the five clusters as: 'Mine' nor as 'This I Am' nor as "This is My Self'... !!! When a Noble Disciple keeps contemplating the momentary arising & ceasing, the change, the becoming otherwise, the decay, fading & vanishing, and the conditioned & dependent emergence of these five clusters of clinging, then the subtle residual desire for 'identification', the remaining 'Ego'-conceit, & the lingering & latent tendency to suppose 'I Am', not yet eliminated comes to be uprooted! Thereby do the toxic traces of destructive Egoism all evaporate.. This -in itself- is release, is relinquishment, is liberation, is freeing freedom!!! Source of inspiration: The Elder Lion Ven. Khemaka thereby Awakening 60 Theras! The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 127-32 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 Complete Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-089.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 49962 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nilovg Hi Steve, Sarah (and Howard), I have been reflecting on this ever since. I find this plausible: Now another point, last night I posted a text about lokuttara citta being also dukkha. We discussed this before. It is not object of clinging, but since it arises and falls away it is dukkha. Howard, I know that you always add: it is dukkha because we cling to what arises and falls away. I hope I rendered your words all right. But I rather think what you state is the second aspect of dukkha: viparinama dukkha, dukkha because of change. Not dukkha in the deepest sense: the noble truth of dukkha. Dukkha as being inherent in all condiitoned dhammas that arise and fall away. This meaning of dukkha has not to do with sufferieng or stress or any emotions. it is just a characteristic. But deep and difficult to understand. Nina. op 11-09-2005 04:16 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@...: My understanding is that the > key terms in understanding the distinction between the khandhas and > the upadanakhandhas are `saasava.m upaadaaniya.m', Translated by > ~Naa.moli as `subject to cankers and are liable to clingings'. > > Page 580 of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (U Kyaw Khine translation) has: 49963 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:58am Subject: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hello Nina, and all Nina wrote this the other day: > We are not yet a corpse but we sure shall be. This can condition samvega, a > sense of urgency, so that we are less infatuated with what we see and > perceive. Today in one of my notebooks I came across this: "Time flies by, the nights fly pass...seeing clearly the danger in death, one should do deeds of merit that bring happiness. Time flies by, the night fly pass, seeing clearly the danger in death a seeker of peace should drop the world's bait." I didn't take note of the source, but it's surely Dhammapada, which I read more for inspiration than deep Dhamma. Interesting, I think, that doing deeds of merit comes before abstaining from akusala. Usually it's the other way around. (e.g avoid evil, do good and purify the mind) I think the other way around makes more sense - if we haven't dropped the world's bait the deeds of merit are of less merit. But, as we know, they should still be done. Also interesting is "the danger in death." Since death is inevitable, it doesn't seem like a "danger" to me. We know that cittas rise and fall all the time. The moment of death is just one moment of citta falling away, to be followed by the first citta of the next life. It is only because of ignorance that we see it as something of so much greater import than that. (Natural enough that we do, of course.) I guess the danger is dying with one's eyes still clouded by ignorance. (i.e accumulated moha) If that happens, it means we have not made good use of this precious human life, I guess. That's the danger. Phil 49964 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 4 philofillet Hi Nina For some reason I find the below easier to understand because it's without the phrase you often use, "the lobha (for e.g) is accumulated in (or with) the citta." A chain of conditioned cittas falling away completely and arising. It is always the "accumulated *in* the citta" that confuses me. But as I've often said, I'm not fretting about that. I'll understand when enough understanding has been accumulated, and not a moment earlier. Phil > Each citta conditions the next citta by way of proximity-condition, > anantara-paccaya. It is succeeded by the next citta and thus all > experiences, good and bad inclinations are accumulated. This happens > throughout life and also from life to life. That is also the reason why > kamma of a past life can produce result in the future. 49965 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >I am sorry to see that you quoted from the message that contained an >error (even though I corrected that in another message that was >overlooked!). > > My apologies for that. >>1. There are no dumb jhanas in Buddhism. >> >Jon: As I understand it, the jhana mentioned by the Buddha in the >context of samatha bhavana is the same jhana as was being attained >by people before his enlightenment. > >Tep: I am sorry to say, that is a wrong understanding, Jon. >------------- > >Jon: I would be interested to know the basis for this contention, which I >have not heard before. > >Tep: Some sutta evidence is now given below. More research should >be done by studying the whole Sutta-pitaka. Since you have asked for >it, I would consider you to be very polite and honest if you could read >my research below and give me a critique. > Thanks for the sutta references (snipped from this post) to support your idea of 2 kinds of jhana, one of which you describe as 'dumb' (let's call the other one 'smart'). If you don't mind, I'd like to try an understand a little more about this distinction before attempting to comment on the references. It would help if you could answer the following queries: (a) When did the Bodhisatta first attain the 'smart' jhana. Was it at the time he was a child and attained jhana under the apple tree, or was it in the period preceding his enlightenment? Could he have attained 'smart' jhana in previous existences as the Bodhisatta? (b) According to your understanding, what accounts for the difference between the 2 kinds of jhana. In other words, what factors present in the smart jhana are absent in the dumb jhana? (c) If a person develops jhana today, what will determine whether the jhana he attains is the dumb or the smart variety? (d) Following on from (c), take the case of a person who has not heard the dhamma but who attains jhana. If I have understood you correctly, this would have to be dumb jhana. If that person then hears the dhamma, does it make a difference to the jhana he experiences when next attaining jhana? Thanks. Jon 49966 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for these further comments. As usual, there is more to discuss ;-)) upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >... >J: Looking back through your earlier posts, you make the distinction >between 'ordinary, defiled "awareness" of hardness, which is overlayed >by a veil of ignorance' and 'awareness freed of ignorance (or accompanied by wisdom)'. As you see it, only in the latter case is >there 'true and valid' experiencing. >I think a two-fold distinction is a little simplistic. >------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Oh, sure. I'm not drawing fine distinctions here. What I had in mind was the conceptual overlay >we impose on the plain experience of hardness, making it seem to be a self-existent, independent, >"thing". The plain experience of the rupa of hardness is "true and valid", but our further concocting >creates cognitive distortion. > Yes, the exact moment of experience of hardness (which is a moment of vipaka citta) is free from distortion of any kind. I think we agree on this point ;-)). It is only in the subsequent moments of thinking about the object just experienced that any 'distortion' arises (more agreement here). However, the moments of subsequent thinking about the hardness just experienced may or may not have a distorted perception of that objbect , depending on whether they are moments of kusala or akusala consciousness. If kusala, then no distortion; however, as I understand it, kusala does not always mean that panna is present. If panna is present, not only is there no distortion, there is also the clear seeing of the true nature of the object. So, different moments, different degrees of 'distortion', non-distortion and seeing clearly. Of course, there is more distortion (akusala) than anything else, much more; but still, it helps to know that in fact there are also many, many moments that are without distortion. Earlier, you said: H: If you are saying that the hardness experienced at the moment of sense-door consciousness is subsequently taken as a self-existent, independent "thing", then I would have to say there appears to be a difference between us. To my understanding, it is not a case of there being a tendency to 'reify' dhammas; it is a case of our ignoreance and wrong view leading to a perception of the world as a world of people and things, places and situations, rather than a world of dhammas. The reason for this perception is that there is not the developed panna that sees dhammas as they truly are. The panna that sees things as they truly are is developed stage by stage, it must first see namas as namas and rupas as rupas, although even this is already an advanced level compared to our present meagre attainments. As panna is further developed, 'the world' is gradually seen to be nothing more than dhammas that are anicca, dukkha and anatta. I hope I have managed to explain clearly what I wanted to say. Please let me know if the difference I think I perceive here is not in fact there. I'd be delighted to know that there is no difference between us on this point. > There is >actually a far larger number of scenarios that could be considered as >being part of 'ordinary awareness/experience'. For example, an >experiencing that is: >(a) akusala consciousness rooted in ignorance alone >(b) akusala consciousness rooted in lobha or dosa but not accompanied by >wrong view, >(c) akusala consciousness accompanied by wrong view, >(d) kusala consciousness without panna, >(e) kusala consciousness with panna >(f) vipaka consciousness (moment of mere experiencing of object through >sense-door). > >I think it is difficult to apply a classification of 'true and valid >experience' (or not) to many of these. How would you see it? >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Well, as I said, I'm not drawing fine distinctions. As to the categories (a)-(f) above, >I question their independence and even their disjointness. Also, I wonder about the precision of >these items. If by "wrong view" you mean avijja, then (b) is nonexistent. Certainly craving and >aversion are based on a sense of self if not a *belief* in self. Likewise I wonder about >item (d), questioning whether a wholesome mindstate can be entirely bereft of wisdom. > > A couple of points to discuss here. H: I think its clear in the suttas that wrong view (ditthi or miccha-ditthi) and ignorance (avijja) are not the same thing. The fetter of wrong view is one of the fetters that are eradicated by the sotapanna, whereas ignorance is finally eradicated only at arahantship. As I understand it, avijja is ignorant of the object, whereas miccha-ditthi takes the object to be other than it is. Also, not all craving is based on a belief in self. The sotapanna has eradicated all sense of self (although not of course the conceit 'I am'), but still has craving (including attachment to sensual objects). H: To my understanding of the texts, wisdom is one kind of kusala, but there are other kinds of kusala besides. Helping others, being considerate, (having metta) does not require any level of panna. Only kusala of the kind that is bhavana (mental development) requires panna. So I am inclined to think that our ordinary, everyday experiences are comprised of moments of consciousness of all the kinds at (a) to (f) above. Jon 49967 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/11/05 4:54:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Steve, Sarah (and Howard), I have been reflecting on this ever since. I find this plausible: Now another point, last night I posted a text about lokuttara citta being also dukkha. We discussed this before. It is not object of clinging, but since it arises and falls away it is dukkha. Howard, I know that you always add: it is dukkha because we cling to what arises and falls away. I hope I rendered your words all right. But I rather think what you state is the second aspect of dukkha: viparinama dukkha, dukkha because of change. Not dukkha in the deepest sense: the noble truth of dukkha. Dukkha as being inherent in all condiitoned dhammas that arise and fall away. This meaning of dukkha has not to do with sufferieng or stress or any emotions. it is just a characteristic. But deep and difficult to understand. Nina. ============================ With respect, I think that to say that dukkha is just a characteristic without further explanation tends to mystify more than to reveal. I see the term 'dukkha' as having several different but related senses: The primary sense is that of "suffering" or "mental pain". This is the subjective, internal sense of 'dukkha'. Dukkha in this sense has arisen whenever there is the experience of distress. A secondary but closely related sense is that of "a condition for suffering or mental pain." This is an objective, external sense of 'dukkha'. As I see it, not only the obviously mentally painful dhammas are dukkha in this sense, but all conditioned dhammas are dukkha in this sense. This does *not* mean that a conditioned dhamma, by itself, must produce distress, but that together with other requisite dhammas, such as craving, aversion, and clinging, it will. It is one among several conditions the coming together of which will produce distress. Tanha (and upadana) cannot be ignored in the production of mental pain (dukkha in the primary sense), because the fundamental role of these in the production of dukkha is the content of the second noble truth. A third sense, also objective and external, is a generalization of the second, and it is closest to a sense of 'dukkha' that makes dukkha intrinsic. This third sense of 'dukkha' is that of "unsatisfying" or "unsatisfactory", or, most precisely, "unable to be a source of genuine and lasting satisfaction, and thus undependable." All conditioned dhammas are dukkha in this sense. The foregoing details my understanding of the term 'dukkha' as best as I can explain it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49968 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:58am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Today in one of my notebooks I came across this: > > "Time flies by, the nights fly pass...seeing clearly the danger in > death, one should do deeds of merit that bring happiness. > > Time flies by, the night fly pass, > seeing clearly the danger in death > a seeker of peace should drop the world's bait." > > > I didn't take note of the source, but it's surely Dhammapada, > which I read more for inspiration than deep Dhamma. Why do you say this? The Dhammapada contains the deepest dhamma necessary! My advice, don't judge the contents by the package. Sweet poetry and haunting words don't mean that the message is lost- it just means that the message is directed to the heart. Phil, please get back in touch with your heart. Your heart is the most beautiful thing about you, and about everyone. Metta, James 49969 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/11/05 10:27:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: If you are saying that the hardness experienced at the moment of sense-door consciousness is subsequently taken as a self-existent, independent "thing", then I would have to say there appears to be a difference between us. To my understanding, it is not a case of there being a tendency to 'reify' dhammas; it is a case of our ignoreance and wrong view leading to a perception of the world as a world of people and things, places and situations, rather than a world of dhammas. The reason for this perception is that there is not the developed panna that sees dhammas as they truly are. The panna that sees things as they truly are is developed stage by stage, it must first see namas as namas and rupas as rupas, although even this is already an advanced level compared to our present meagre attainments. As panna is further developed, 'the world' is gradually seen to be nothing more than dhammas that are anicca, dukkha and anatta. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with most of the foregoing. However, I think our conceptual distorting applies not only in the area of obvious pa~n~natti. I believe that we commonly conceptually distort our perception of paramattha dhammas, substituting ersatz, reified, and hardened concepts for the realities actually observed. ------------------------------------------ I hope I have managed to explain clearly what I wanted to say. Please let me know if the difference I think I perceive here is not in fact there. I'd be delighted to know that there is no difference between us on this point. ------------------------------------------ Howard: There's not a lot of difference, but perhaps some. ----------------------------------------- > There is >actually a far larger number of scenarios that could be considered as >being part of 'ordinary awareness/experience'. For example, an >experiencing that is: >(a) akusala consciousness rooted in ignorance alone >(b) akusala consciousness rooted in lobha or dosa but not accompanied by >wrong view, >(c) akusala consciousness accompanied by wrong view, >(d) kusala consciousness without panna, >(e) kusala consciousness with panna >(f) vipaka consciousness (moment of mere experiencing of object through >sense-door). > >I think it is difficult to apply a classification of 'true and valid >experience' (or not) to many of these. How would you see it? >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Well, as I said, I'm not drawing fine distinctions. As to the categories (a)-(f) above, >I question their independence and even their disjointness. Also, I wonder about the precision of >these items. If by "wrong view" you mean avijja, then (b) is nonexistent. Certainly craving and >aversion are based on a sense of self if not a *belief* in self. Likewise I wonder about >item (d), questioning whether a wholesome mindstate can be entirely bereft of wisdom. > > A couple of points to discuss here. H: I think its clear in the suttas that wrong view (ditthi or miccha-ditthi) and ignorance (avijja) are not the same thing. The fetter of wrong view is one of the fetters that are eradicated by the sotapanna, whereas ignorance is finally eradicated only at arahantship. ------------------------------------ Howard: You are correct! Point well taken. ----------------------------------- As I understand it, avijja is ignorant of the object, whereas miccha-ditthi takes the object to be other than it is. Also, not all craving is based on a belief in self. The sotapanna has eradicated all sense of self (although not of course the conceit 'I am'), but still has craving (including attachment to sensual objects). ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think the stream enterer has eradicated all *sense* of self, but only *belief* in self. -------------------------------------- H: To my understanding of the texts, wisdom is one kind of kusala, but there are other kinds of kusala besides. Helping others, being considerate, (having metta) does not require any level of panna. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't believe that. As I see it, lovingkindness requires *some* presence of wisdom. If on an occasion one is entirely bereft of wisdom, genuine metta could not be then present as I see it. -------------------------------------------- Only kusala of the kind that is bhavana (mental development) requires panna. So I am inclined to think that our ordinary, everyday experiences are comprised of moments of consciousness of all the kinds at (a) to (f) above. Jon =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49970 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:11am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi James I was thinking about you, because I know that you're going back to work today after a long time off and I know what that's like - usually great! > Why do you say this? The Dhammapada contains the deepest dhamma > necessary! Actually, now that you mention it, when I was first at a general Buddhist forum, I asked the group why it was necessary to ever study anything more than Dhammapada. Now I know. Clearly, though, while inspirational and yes, deep, it's not enough. I read it on to a tape and listen to it some time. Certainly beautiful and certainly deep. But nothing like Samyutta Nikaya, in my opinion. My advice, don't judge the contents by the package. Sweet > poetry and haunting words don't mean that the message is lost- it just > means that the message is directed to the heart. Phil, please get > back in touch with your heart. Your heart is the most beautiful thing > about you, and about everyone. Thanks, James. You're a good friend. And don't worry - if you read the stories I'm writing, you'd know that I am indeed in touch with my heart. (I still haven't sent them to you as promised.) But I disagree when it comes to Dhamma. The heart is not a trustworthy guide. I really do feel that it is in understanding that we move towards liberation, and the heart is one of the things that is understood. Metta is understood. A moment of metta that lights up a bitter and dark and tired afternoon unexpectedly is of far more import to me and I think has more power in the cultivation of the wholesome than the metta that I develop because I want it and which may or may not actually be metta. (How can it be if it is rooted in lobha? If we want to have metta, how can it not be rooted in lobha. Yes, I know, there can be chanda.) But thanks again and good luck with your new school year. And hi to amr. Phil 49971 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (Attn. James and Swee) - This is a short reply to your message # 49965. > >Tep: Some sutta evidence is now given below. More research should >be done by studying the whole Sutta-pitaka. Since you have asked for >it, I would consider you to be very polite and honest if you could read >my research below and give me a critique. > Jon: Thanks for the sutta references (snipped from this post) to support your idea of 2 kinds of jhana, one of which you describe as 'dumb' (let's call the other one 'smart'). Jon: If you don't mind, I'd like to try an understand a little more about this distinction before attempting to comment on the references. It would help if you could answer the following queries: (a) When did the Bodhisatta first attain the 'smart' jhana. Was it at the time he was a child and attained jhana under the apple tree, or was it in the period preceding his enlightenment? Could he have attained 'smart' jhana in previous existences as the Bodhisatta? (b) According to your understanding, what accounts for the difference between the 2 kinds of jhana. In other words, what factors present in the smart jhana are absent in the dumb jhana? (c) If a person develops jhana today, what will determine whether the jhana he attains is the dumb or the smart variety? (d) Following on from (c), take the case of a person who has not heard the dhamma but who attains jhana. If I have understood you correctly, this would have to be dumb jhana. If that person then hears the dhamma, does it make a difference to the jhana he experiences when next attaining jhana? Tep: I appreciate your courteous reply with the intention to review the sutta references that were used as the (small) basis of my Jhana research. However, the above extended questions are not fair for the following reasons. 1. Answers to some of the extended questions are impossible to find from the Sutta Pitaka. For example, "Could he have attained 'smart' jhana in previous existences as the Bodhisatta?" in (a) 2. Some of the extended questions are of speculative nature. Questions (c) and (d) are speculative. 3. Answers for the rest of these extended questions in (a) and (b), may be found in the sutta review post and the messages (with James and Swee Boon) that came after that post. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 49972 From: nina Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:16am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, 5. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:50am Subject: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nilovg ---------- Van: Tom Westheimer Datum: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:24:53 -0400 Aan: Nina van Gorkom Onderwerp: Re: perfections you can publish http://westheimers.net/dsg/perfections/ 49974 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. nilovg Hi Phil, I think it is still a different order. What about purifying the mind first? Nina. op 11-09-2005 11:58 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Interesting, I think, that doing deeds of merit comes before > abstaining from akusala. Usually it's the other way around. (e.g > avoid evil, do good and purify the mind) I think the other way > around makes more sense - if we haven't dropped the world's bait > the deeds of merit are of less merit. But, as we know, they should > still be done. 49975 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah & Jon) - In a message dated 9/11/05 2:51:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: ---------- Van: Tom Westheimer Datum: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:24:53 -0400 Aan: Nina van Gorkom Onderwerp: Re: perfections you can publish http://westheimers.net/dsg/perfections/ ============================ It happens that "my" list, ASG, is just now commencing a discussion of the ten paramis. Do I have your permission to write this url there? If yes, may I mention DSG as the source? If you would prefer that I not give the url there, of course I will not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 49976 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References buddhatrue Hi Tep and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi, Jon (Attn. James and Swee) - > Tep: I appreciate your courteous reply with the intention to review the > sutta references that were used as the (small) basis of my Jhana > research. James: Tep, I found nothing courteous about Jon's reply. However, the above extended questions are not fair for the > following reasons. James: Good to point this out! > > > 1. Answers to some of the extended questions are impossible to find > from the Sutta Pitaka. For example, "Could he have attained 'smart' > jhana in previous existences as the Bodhisatta?" in (a) James: Jon is just being a "smart" ass with this question. > 2. Some of the extended questions are of speculative nature. > Questions (c) and (d) are speculative. James: Yes, and they are also leading- a speciality of Jon's questions. > 3. Answers for the rest of these extended questions in (a) and (b), may > be found in the sutta review post and the messages (with James and > Swee Boon) that came after that post. James: Jon is welcome to ask me any of his leading questions anytime he wants. But it won't be pretty. :-( > > > Respectfully yours, > > > Tep > > ======= Metta, James 49977 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:15pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi James > > I was thinking about you, because I know that you're going back > to work today after a long time off and I know what that's like - > usually great! James: Yeah, it was pretty nice. I like the school and the students, so far. > > > Why do you say this? The Dhammapada contains the deepest dhamma > > necessary! > > Actually, now that you mention it, when I was first at a general > Buddhist forum, I asked the group why it was necessary to ever study > anything more than Dhammapada. Now I know. Clearly, though, while > inspirational and yes, deep, it's not enough. I read it on to a tape > and listen to it some time. Certainly beautiful and certainly deep. > But nothing like Samyutta Nikaya, in my opinion. James: Why? I find it rather odd to compare some of the Buddha's teachings to other teachings and to pick favorites- like one is counting down the top fifty pop songs! To my way of thinking, all of the Buddha's teachings are excellent and pure and the Dhammapada is just as stellar as the SN. Do you see what I am saying? Could you imagine the monks at the first council saying: "We are going to recite the teachings of the Buddha that are really good but those teachings that just weren't as good we are going to leave out." That wouldn't happen! They are all the same in quality. It is the individual who judges based on ego and past experience. > > My advice, don't judge the contents by the package. Sweet > > poetry and haunting words don't mean that the message is lost- it > just > > means that the message is directed to the heart. Phil, please get > > back in touch with your heart. Your heart is the most beautiful > thing > > about you, and about everyone. > > Thanks, James. You're a good friend. And don't worry - if you read > the stories I'm writing, you'd know that I am indeed in touch with > my heart. (I still haven't sent them to you as promised.) James: Yeah, you haven't. Why not? Get busy, buster! ;-)) But I > disagree when it comes to Dhamma. The heart is not a trustworthy > guide. I really do feel that it is in understanding that we move > towards liberation, and the heart is one of the things that is > understood. Metta is understood. A moment of metta that lights up a > bitter and dark and tired afternoon unexpectedly is of far more > import to me and I think has more power in the cultivation of the > wholesome than the metta that I develop because I want it and which > may or may not actually be metta. James: Oh God, I don't want to get into the subject of metta with you again. I have exhausted that subject throughly and have gotten nowhere. You can just continue to be a heartless jerk and call it wisdom (hehehe...just kidding). (How can it be if it is rooted in > lobha? If we want to have metta, how can it not be rooted in lobha. > Yes, I know, there can be chanda.) James: I don't know what you mean. Speak English to me and then maybe I can respond. > > But thanks again and good luck with your new school year. And hi > to amr. James: Thanks a lot. I will give your best wishes to Amr. He has gotten a new motorcycle and has gotten into three accidents so far. I know you don't believe in it, but maybe you can send some metta his way- ask the devas to protect him. I am quite worried myself. > > > Phil Metta, James 49978 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James - > Tep: Thank you for clearly explaining the difference between > Sotapanna on the path to Arahant and the enlightenment path of a > Bodhisatta toward Buddhahood. Thank you for your nice post and for understanding my concern. I can become very adamant about the Buddha being represented accurately- not sure why. I have always been like that. Glad you understand and that you didn't take it personally like so many others would. That speaks worlds for you. Metta, James 49979 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:22pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi james > James: Why? I find it rather odd to compare some of the Buddha's > teachings to other teachings and to pick favorites- like one is > counting down the top fifty pop songs! (snip) It is the > individual who judges based on ego and past experience. You're right, of course. But it seems inevitable, at least for me. And we dig into the suttas, longing to find the one that proves one's point, or confirms one's theory. At least I do, but am fortunately well aware of it. But of course you're right. When there is wisdom one can see through any sutta to the essence. But there isn't enough wisdom here to do that. Abhidhamma helps. > James: Oh God, I don't want to get into the subject of metta with > you again. You're the one who brought up "the heart." What is "the heart" in Dhamma if not metta. > (How can it be if it is rooted in > > lobha? If we want to have metta, how can it not be rooted in > lobha. > > Yes, I know, there can be chanda.) > > James: I don't know what you mean. Speak English to me and then > maybe I can respond. You know full well what chanda is. How would you translate it? I find using the Pali word more efficient in this and some other cases because we know exactly what is being discussed or because the usual English translation has too wide of a meaning or is misleading. (as with mana, which is usually translated as conceit.) Why do you use "metta?" If you're going to complain about Pali, stop using "metta." > James: Thanks a lot. I will give your best wishes to Amr. He has > gotten a new motorcycle and has gotten into three accidents so far. > I know you don't believe in it, but maybe you can send some metta > his way- ask the devas to protect him. I am quite worried myself. I'm sorry to hear that. Have you discussed what drives him to drive recklessly? Of course you have. If you ask him to stand on the rooftop of the tallest building at exactly 3 pm Tokyo time (if you wouldn't mind calculating the time difference) and make sure that his ear is pointing towards Japan I will shout a message full of goodwill to him. That would have a better chance of reaching him than metta would. I can feel metta towards him, and perhaps do now - but the idea of it flying through space to him is peculiar to me. But I know it is a common idea, so I may be wrong. May be. Anyways, say hi and tell him that there is a fellow in Japan who is concerned about his well being. If that is sending him metta, I send him metta. Let's drop it at that, yeah. As you say, we don't want to get back into going around in circles on this point. Phil 49980 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: Sekha Patipada [was mundane ...prince siddartha was an ariyan] buddhistmedi... Hi, James - I am glad to know about your saddha in the Buddha. > James: > Thank you for your nice post and for understanding my concern. I can become very adamant about the Buddha being represented > accurately- not sure why. I have always been like that. Tep : It is not a coincidence that we both have a strong admiration and belief in the Buddha's Teaching . Being "very adamant about the Buddha being represented accurately" is, without any doubt, a measure of your great confidence(saddha) in his Enlightenment. I have pondered quite often on saddha in the Perfect One's Enlightenment and how it leads to other extremely important dhammas like the five faculties (indriya) and the patipada of a noble learner (sekha). What is your thought on this issue? Patipada [PTS] = means of reaching a goal or destination, path, way, means, method, mode of progress. The following definition of sekha by Nyanatiloka is pretty neat. Sekha = a 'noble learner', a disciple in higher training, i.e. one who pursues the 3 kinds of training (sikkha), is one of those 7 kinds of noble disciples who have reached one of the 4 supermundane paths or the 3 lower fruitions (s. ariya-puggala). Peace, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > >(snipped) > Metta, > James 49981 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:30pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi James > > I was thinking about you, because I know that you're going back > to work today after a long time off and I know what that's like - > usually great! > > > Why do you say this? The Dhammapada contains the deepest dhamma > > necessary! > > __________ Dear Phil and James, The Dhammapada is very deep. The theravada commentary to it beautifully explains the pithy meaning of each sutta. robertk 49982 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:02pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, para 244-264 buddhistmedi... Hi, all - It is a little less than two weeks since the first part of the vatthu #3 was posted. This post goes from para 244 to para 264 of the third vatthu. Next week we shall start with vatthu #4 [He trains thus 'I shall breathe in tranquillizing the body formation' and 'I shall breathe out tranquillizing the body formation' .] (iii, part 2) 244. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato);(3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). (1) When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of permanence (niccasannam pajahati), (2) when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of pleasure (sukhasannam pajahati); (3) when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self (attasannam pajahati), (4) when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight (nandim pajahati), (5) when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raagam pajahati), (6) when he causes cessation he abandons arising (samudayam pajahati), (7) when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaanam pajahati). Thus he contemplates the body. 245. 'Development': there are four kinds of development(bhaavaana): development in the sense of non-excess(anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) produced therein, development in the sense of single function(eka rasa) of the faculties(indriya), development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate energy(tadupaga viriya), and development in the sense of repetition(aasevana). [Training] 246. In-breaths and out-breaths while accqainted with the whole body [of breaths] are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; they are Purification of Cognizance in the sense of non-distraction(avikkhepa); they are Purification of View in the sense of seeing(dassana). The meaning of restraint therein is training(sikkhaa) in the Higher Virtue (adhisila); the meaning of non-distraction therein is training in the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta); the meaning of seein therein is training in the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa). 247. When he adverts, he is acquainted with those bodies (aavajjato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he knows, ... (pajaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he sees, ... (passato te kaayaa patividitaahonti). When he reviews, ... (paccavekkhato te kaayaapatividitaa honti). When he steadies his cognizance, .... (cittam adhitthahato te kaayaa patividitaahonti). When he resolves with faith, .... (saddhaaya adhimuccato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he exerts energy, ... (viiriyam pagganhato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he establishes (founds) mindfulness, ... (satim upatthaapayato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he concentrates cognizance, … (cittam samaadahato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he understands with understanding, ... (pannaayapajaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he directly knows what is to be directly known,... (abhinneyyam abhijaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he fully understands what is to be fully understood, ... (parinneyyam parijaanato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he abandons what is to be abandoned, ...(pahaatabbam pajahato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he develops what is to be developed, ...(bhaavetabbam bhaavayato te kaayaa patividitaa honti). When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with those bodies (sacchikaatabbam sacchikaroto te kaayaa patividitaa honti). That is how those bodies are experienced. [ Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness ] 248 - 251. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], his feelings are recognized as they arise, ... [and so on as in para 199 - 202 up to the end]. [Combining the Faculties, Etc. ] 252 - 264. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], he combines the faculties, understands their domain, and penetrates their meanings of sameness; he combines the powers ... [and so on as in para 203 - 215 up to the end]. Tep's Notes: It is a little confusing to me to see words like 'the body', '[breath] body', 'whole body', and 'those bodies', unless when the context is clear. The following is my summary of the above presentation. I hope that this summary may motivate a useful discussion. The meditator contemplates the body by means of the seven anupassanas; he abandons seven dhammas, namely, the three wrong perceptions (sanna-vipallasa), delight, greed, arising, and grasping . He develops (bhavana) the arising dhammas (e.g. the faculties) in the sense of non-excess and single function, for example. An he trains in the three purifications of virtue(sila), cognizance(citta), and wisdom(panna). The (mental and material) bodies are experienced or "acquainted" when he understands "unification of cognizance and non-distraction", through the vatthu of the anapanasati, with established mindfulness, and knowledge(nana). Also, when he abandons, develops, or realizes the dhammas that arise he is acquainted with "those bodies". Following the understanding of "unification of cognizance and non- distraction" and acquaintance of the bodies is the combination of the bodhipakhiya dhammas (e.g. faculties, powers, etc.). Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > > The presentation last week stopped at para 238. Now we move on to > the third ground(vatthu) that deals with "he trains thus 'I shall breath in > acquainted with the whole breath body' and 'I shall breath out > acquainted with the whole breath body'." 49983 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:21pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi Rob K Hope you're having some great talks in Bangkok. Please report, if you have time. > The Dhammapada is very deep. The theravada commentary to it beautifully > explains the pithy meaning of each sutta. Yes, the commentary would help me. Because of the accessibility of Dhammapada verses they have become very popular in translation, even appearing at New Agey web sites, and some of the translations seem a bit off. For example, a famous verse has it as "only by love does hatred cease" and it has become so well-known. But unless I'm mistaken (someone please tell me if I am) the Pali has adosa. Adosa is not love. I think the reason I respond to Samyutta Nikaya is that so many of the suttas are expressed exclusively in paramattha terms. I believe that understanding paramattha intellectually is a necessary first step. (Others would say that it is futile for a person of my shallow insight to understand them to any degree in that way - they may be right.) With that understanding, I will better be able to understand the paramattha that is implicit in suttas that are expressed in conventional terms, such as the verses in Dhammapada usually are. Phil 49984 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:01pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 271- Wrong View/di.t.thi (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] There are many kinds of wrong views and they are of different degrees. Three kinds of wrong view are unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma patha, through the mind, and these are capable of causing an unhappy rebirth. They are the following three views: * 1) There is no result of kamma (natthika-diììhi) 2) There are no causes (in happening, ahetuka-diììhi) 3) There is no such thing as kamma (akiriya-diììhi) * As regards the first view, this was taught by Ajita Kesakambali(2). He also taught that there is annihilation at death. The second view was taught by Makkhalí. He taught that there is no cause for the depravity or purity of beings, that there is no human effort and that all living creatures are “bent by fate, chance and nature”(3). The third view was taught by Púraùa Kassapa(4). He denied that there is akusala kamma and kusala kamma. The tormenting of others is not an evil deed according to him. Although these three views are distinct from each other, they are nevertheless related. When one does not see kamma as cause one does not see its result either, and when one does not see the result of kamma, one does not see kamma as cause either(5). The above-mentioned three wrong views are akusala kamma patha through the mind if one is firmly convinced about them. These three views in particular are very dangerous, they can give rise to many evil deeds. There are many other kinds of wrong views and, although they are not akusala kamma patha, they are still dangerous. The scriptures often refer to the eternalistic view and to the annihilationistic view. Eternalism is the belief that there is a “self” who is permanent. Annihilationism is the belief that there is a “self” who will be annihilated after death. There is also a “semieternalistic view”: one holds that some phenomena are eternal while others are not. One may sometimes cling to the eternalistic view and sometimes to the annihilistic view. *** 2) Middle Length Sayings II, no. 60, On the Sure, 401. 3) Ibidem, 407, and see also Dialogues of the Buddha I, no. 2, “The Fruits of the Life of a Recluse”, 54. 4) Middle Length Sayings II, no. 60, 404. 5) See also Kindred Sayings III, Khandha-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Views, I, §5-7, and Dialogues of the Buddha I, no. 2, 52-56, and Atthasåliní I, Part III, Chapter V, 101. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 49985 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:43pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Rob K > > Hope you're having some great talks in Bangkok. Please report, if you > have time. > > > The Dhammapada is very deep. The theravada commentary to it > beautifully > > explains the pithy meaning of each sutta. > > Yes, the commentary would help me. Because of the accessibility of > Dhammapada verses they have become very popular in translation, even > appearing at New Agey web sites, and some of the translations seem a > bit off. For example, a famous verse has it as "only by love does > hatred cease" and it has become so well-known. But unless I'm mistaken > (someone please tell me if I am) the Pali has adosa. Adosa is not > love. > > I think the reason I respond to Samyutta Nikaya is that so many of > the suttas are expressed exclusively in paramattha terms. I believe > that understanding paramattha intellectually is a necessary first step. > (Others would say that it is futile for a person of my shallow insight > to understand them to any degree in that way - they may be right.) With > that understanding, I will better be able to understand the paramattha > that is implicit in suttas that are expressed in conventional terms, > such as the verses in Dhammapada usually are. > > Phil Hello Phil, James, RobK, all, Dhammapada Ch.1 The Twin Verses verse 5. (Narada Thera) The word used is Avera - literally, means non-anger. Here it means the virtue opposed to the vice of anger, that is, loving-kindness (mettaa). 5. Na hi verena veraani - sammantii' dha kudaacanca.m Averena ca sammanti - esa dhammo sanantano. 5. Hatreds never cease through hatred in this world; through love alone they cease. This is the eternal law. Story: A husband had two wives, one barren, the other fruitful. The former, actuated by jealousy, mixed a drug in her rival's food and caused two successive abortions. On the third occasion the potion caused the death both of the mother and of the child. The dying woman willed vengeance on her rival and her offspring, and she carried out her resolve. The other too did likewise. Thus both women avenged themselves in the course of two successive births. In their third birth circumstances, however, compelled both to meet the Buddha, who pacified them by advising them not to retaliate. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 49986 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:37pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi Christine and all > Dhammapada Ch.1 The Twin Verses verse 5. (Narada Thera) > The word used is Avera - literally, means non-anger. Here it means > the virtue opposed to the vice of anger, that is, loving-kindness > (mettaa). > > 5. Na hi verena veraani - sammantii' dha kudaacanca.m Averena ca > sammanti - esa dhammo sanantano. > 5. Hatreds never cease through hatred in this world; through love > alone they cease. This is the eternal law. Thanks for the clarification. Still, other translations have non- hatred as opposed to love. Much better, I think. I don't think non- hatred is the same as love. Letting go of a moment of aversion, letting go of hatred. Is that love, or even loving-kindness? I don't think so, but that is just a beginner's opinion. Phil 49987 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Hi Steve & All,(Phil- see p.s) --- seisen_au wrote: > Hi Sarah and All, > > Thanks for raising this topic again. My understanding is that the > key terms in understanding the distinction between the khandhas and > the upadanakhandhas are `saasava.m upaadaaniya.m', Translated by > ~Naa.moli as `subject to cankers and are liable to clingings'. ... S: Yes. Thanks for your input too. To add a little more on this from Sammohavinodanii, (PTS, Class. Of Aggregates, 132f): “ ‘As to the distinction’: [that is] as to the distinction between ‘aggregates’ (khandha) and ‘aggregates [as objects] of clinging’ (upaadaanakkhandha). But what is the distinction between them? ‘Aggregates’ in the first place is said without distinction; but ‘aggregates [as objects] of clinging’ [is said] distinguishing those which are subject to cankers and are to be clung to (saasava-upaadaaniiya-bhaavena), according as it is said....” (quote from Siii47 follows) ..... > Page 580 of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (U Kyaw Khine translation) has: > > What are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m): There > are meritorious, demeritorious and neither-meritorious-nor- > demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, the fine material > sphere and the Non-material sphere which are the aggregate of > corporeality, feeling, perception and the aggregate of consciousness. > These are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas > > Katame dhammaa saasavaa? Kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa > kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa, aruupaavacaraa; ruupakkhandho …pe… > vi~n~naa.nakkhandho– > ime dhammaa saasavaa. .... S: Right, “ think we can stress, ‘which are the objects of aasavas’ when clung to. If they are not the objects or domain of clinging, they are not upaadaanakkhandha, surely? For example, the khanhdas of the arahant can still be the object of others’ clinging – they are only upaadaanakkhandha, dhammas which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m) when clung to. Sammohavinodanii, 134: “Aggregates which are the domain (gocara) of clinging are the aggregates [as objects] of clinging’. ...... > The only dhammaa that are not objects of the asavas are the > supramundane paths, fruits and the unconditioned element. .... S: Yes, the only dhammaa which are *never* the objects of the asavas are these. ..... > > > First, to repeat, there are two meanings of `upaadaanakkhandhaa': > > > > a) All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the > object of > > upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana > > (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and > falls > > away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye- > base > > whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. > > I'm not sure about this. Dhammasangani p.629 states that the only > dhammaa that are not objects of clinging are the supramundane paths, > fruits and the unconditioned element. .... S: I don’t read this to mean that all other dhammaa are always objects of clinging. Do you? (I’m reminded of the lists we read in the texts about other categories. For example, the kinds of cittas which are included under sankhara (formations) in D.O - It doesn’t mean that all these cittas are always of a degree of kamma patha, but they may be and that’s the point) .... > These Dhammasangani passages seem to support Bhikkhu Bodhi comment on > page 1058 of Samyutta Nikaya that: > > saasava and upaadaaniya do not mean "accompanied by taints and by > clinging" but "capable of being taken as objects of the taints and of > clinging" ... S: I don’t have a problem with BB’s notes here. The Dhs said ‘dhammaa which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m)’. Maybe a subtle distinction in the understanding of ‘saasava upaadaaniya’? From the commentary note which B.Bodhi quotes on p.1059 of SN: “Spk:...’With taints (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for the taints by way of object; so too ‘that can be clung to (upaadaaniya) means what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its object]. Among the aggregates subject to clinging, stated by way of the practice of insight, the form aggregate is sense sphere, the others pertain to the three planes (i.e, excluding only the supramundane.)” .... S: As I suggested, unless the dhamma is the object of clinging, it is not upadana khandha and cannot be understood in the ultimate sense as dukkha. Hence it would appear that rupas can only be understood as upadana khandha when there is clinging to them (i.e in the sense sphere). Hence the necessity and value of the human realm for the development of ingisht, for the development of understanding of all the khandhas without exception. In summary, as I wrote last time, I understand that all khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment. Thanks Steve, I’m reflecting more as I write and look forward to any more input. Metta, Sarah p.s These points come up briefly in some of the recorded discussions we're now editing and hope to put up on DSG.org before we leave for India. You may like to listen to them. Also, Phil mentioned he’d been considering a visit to Bangkok in February when Nina will be there too. Why not consider joining us at that time too? Phil, why not consider a flight to Canada via Bangkok? I know it’s a bit out of the way, but often roundabout flights are cheaper, we find. Check Thai Air. I hope others consider joining too. ................ 49988 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Erik with a K! (Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References) sarahprocter... Hi Erik & Howard, --- rikpa21 wrote: > Hi Sarah! :) > > O heaveans, please don't talk about Koh Samui! We miss it so much > there (aside from the island boredom that arose living there too). > Actually, Thailand in general. ... S: I can imagine....you had a nice set up there.... ..... > > This living in NYC business back in the rat race is exhausting and > we're itching to get out and live a sane lifestyle, which this > culture pretty much makes impossible. .... S: Reading between the lines, it sounds like you've got work and things are going well for you:). And as Dan was saying to Colette, in the end we can't blame the culture, politics or other 'jewellery' for our insanity or bondage....(but you know all that!!). .... > > Look forward to more here. > > PS. We *did* leave Khun Sukin a note while we visited BKK last > March, but he wasn't at his store. Oh well.. ... S: We look forward to more too. Perhaps we'll also meet up again too. Btw, can you give a translation of what you wrote in #49659 with any elaboration - I got about half the words. Howard, I knew you'd be glad when you realised it was Erik you were talking to. However, you continued in one thread addressing Robert on the two jhanas....maybe #49660 or a later one. As I see it, lobha is lobha is lobha (no matter a Buddhist's, a Christian's or anyone else's!). Same for dosa or metta or jhana cittas! I discussed the same topic with Htoo before and I think he agreed that it didn't make any sense (esp. from an Abhidhamma point of view) to refer to Buddhist and non-Buddhist jhana cittas. So what matters (if anything) these days, Erik? Metta, Sarah p.s one baby and Eath's nephew with you these days or more? ======= 49989 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:27pm Subject: Accumulations (Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, this is one of the comments I thought was very sharp (in a good sense of course:)): --- upasaka@... wrote: > ====================================== > ... There is no "activation" of past pa~n~na, > kamma, or anusayas - they > are all gone. Nothing is literally accumulated. The past occurrences of > these and other events are > responsible for what events occur now. Some of the "causative" > conditions may be long gone, some may > be more recent, and some may be just fallen away. As for exactly which > conditions, occurring when, > and in what context determine exactly what arises now is of nearly > infinite complexity and certainly > goes way beyond my ken. .... S: The others were in your post #49745. Very well put. 'Nothing is passed along like a perpetual substance', 'In particular, the arising of insight on one occasion is a condition for the arising of further and deeper insights in the future.' Many other good comments too. Metta, Sarah p.s re #49026 in which you refer in a note to Herman and I to bhavanga citta objects and K.Sujin's comments....I forget if I replied. In brief: a) bhavanga citta objects can never be known. They are not sense or mind door objects. b) bhavanga cittas can be known IF there is sufficient panna developed. c) I don't think the 'composers of the ancient commentaries' ever suggest bhavanga citta objects can be known. The object is the same as that of the patisandhi citta and later of the cuti citta. It is the same as the object of the last javana process from the previous life. Only a Buddha could understand and fully comprehend or the intricacies of the cittas and their objects perfectly. The commentators are passing on such knowledge. I don't know whether the Great Disciples with perfect recollection abilities would know this or not. Quite possibly. An interesting point. Metta, Sarah ============= 49990 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE WHOLE BODY, NOT HEART, AS 'SEAT OF CONSCIOUSNESS': THE BUDD... sarahprocter... Hi TG (& Tep) Thanks for your input and good to hear from you after quite some time, I think. --- TGrand458@... wrote: > S: Tep, what do YOU mean here by 'whole body' and can you give me a > sutta > reference to support this idea of 'the whole body' being the seat? Do > you > mean the 'seat' of all kinds of consciousness or which? > > Hi Sarah, All > > This may repeat other replies but... .... S: Not a repeat, no one else elaborated on the point for me: > > I would consider the often stated in Suttas -- "Name and Form is the > cause > of consciousness, consciousness is the cause of Name and Form" -- to be > good > evidence in support of the idea that the "whole body" is the seat of > consciousness. (I am taking "whole body" the mean the "whole human > system": ie, name > and form.) ..... S: Let’s break this down a little further. OK, ‘name and form’ (nama and rupa, i.e cetasikas and rupas) can condition consciousness (cittas) in various ways. Also consciousness (citta) can condition ‘name and form’ (nama and rupa, i.e cetasikas and rupas) in various ways, starting at birth when the first patisandhi citta conditions accompanying cetasikas and rupas. Now what do you mean above by ‘whole body’ exactly when you say the "whole human system": ie, name and form.? Do you mean a) the rupas which make up the body, b) cetasikas and rupas, c) cittas, cetasikas and rupas produced by kamma in the body d) other? I’m not trying to be difficult here. When we refer to causes or conditions (hetu or paccaya) as in your examples above, I think the meaning is wider than what is meant by basis or ‘seat’ (vatthu) in the texts. For example, eye-base is the basis or seat of seeing consciousness. It’s also a condition for seeing consciousness to arise by way of being ‘base-prenascence-dependence condition’. Visible object which is seen is also a condition for seeing-consciousness to arise by way of object condition, but it’s not the base and therefore is not a condition in the same way as the eye-base is. I think this is common sense for seeing consciousness. We know that without an object and without eye-sense and without contact and other mental factors, there cannot be seeing. When it comes to hearing, the base is obviously ear-base. When it comes to body-sense experiencing, then the base is anywhere on the body where impact occurs. However, for other kinds of consciousness (other than the 5 pairs of sense experiencing), clearly there is a different base. When we’re angry or happy, for example, there is no need for eye-base, ear-base or body-sense base to condition the unwholesome kinds of consciousness at such a time. There is another base, referred to as the heart-base for other kinds of consciousness, but it’s not ‘whole body’ or ‘name and form’. ..... > As far the "heart base," I don't see any justification for that concept > that > stands up to reasonable scrutiny, without having to extrapolate it to > mean > something well beyond "heart base." .... S: We don’t have to use this word at all. However, I hope you can see from my effort that what is referred to as ‘base’ is not the same as ‘causes’ or ‘whole body’. Of course, my understanding is very much influenced by what I read in the Abhidhamma and I know you prefer to stick to Sutta references here, TG. For others who may be interested, according to the Abhidhamma, heart-base is related to rebirth consciousness that arises with it by conascence condition. On all other occasions, the heart-base conditions the cittas by way of base-prenascence condition (i.e the heart-base arises first). At the time of human rebirth (or for any beings born from a mother’s womb), eye-base and the other sense bases do not arise. They only do so on the 77th day after conception. When beings are moisture-born or spontaneously-born, the sense bases arise with rebirth consciousness but are not yet the causes of the various kinds of sense consciousness. Many more useful details are given in U Narada’s ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’ (PTS) under ‘base-prenascence-dependence’ condition. I appreciate that it may not appeal to all tastes, but I’ve always found this text invaluable. I’ll look forward to any further feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s Tep, Thanks for your response on this topic. I understood that you were just adding to Herman's comments. No problem. Btw, it's our habit to always try and encourage friends to stay here, never to leave!! Without contributors, there'd be no discussion list. Appreciating all your current threads. ====== 49991 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, Htoo & all,(Phil, skip to p.s again!) I think you raise excellent (and difficult) questions: --- nidive wrote: > >H: There are many dhammas that seem to be a mixture of akusala and > > kusala. But akusala and kusala do not even arise in the same > > procession of cittas. > >SB: But how do you explain kamma that is both dark and bright at the same > time? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html#diversity > > "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? > There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily > fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication > that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is > injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious > world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He > experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with > pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the > lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & > bright result. > > [AN IV.232] ..... S: Please see if this old post of RobK's helps: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18530 >R: 1. "Black and white kamma": The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin).P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"ENDQUOTE It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala including the mundane jhanas. It is not saying to avoid kusala , simply that these are very much part of the causes of samsara.< ***** S: Just before this in the same text (Atthaasalinii, translated as 'The Expositor'), it says: "In the triplet of 'leading to accumulation,' 'accumulation' means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are 'those causes which by being accomplished to go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth.' It is a name for co-intoxicant moral or immoral states. Nibbana being free from 'cumulation,' which is another word for 'accumulation' is called 'dispersion.'[i.e of the cumulative round of rebirth].'Leading to dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths." .... S: The Pali for >'leading to accumulation,' 'accumulation' means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions.< is: "Aacayagaamittike kammakilesehi aaciyyatii ti aacayo. Pa.tisanddhicutigatipavattaana.m eta.m naama.m.< Buddhadatta dict simply gives 'accumulation' for 'aacaya' too. ..... Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks for your good discussions with others on the jhana thread. Phil, it's a dictionary day. From the Oxford dict: "'adze' (US adz, n, tool like axe, with arched blade at right angles to handle. Metta, Sarah ========== 49992 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Dear Steve, Nina & all, S: I just wrote the following and would like to add more again:) >S:To add a little more on this from Sammohavinodanii, (PTS, Class. Of Aggregates, 132f): “ ‘As to the distinction’: [that is] as to the distinction between ‘aggregates’ (khandha) and ‘aggregates [as objects] of clinging’ (upaadaanakkhandha). But what is the distinction between them? ‘Aggregates’ in the first place is said without distinction; but ‘aggregates [as objects] of clinging’ [is said] distinguishing those which are subject to cankers and are to be clung to (saasava-upaadaaniiya-bhaavena), according as it is said....” (quote from Siii47 follows)< ..... >>Steve: Page 580 of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (U Kyaw Khine translation) has: > > What are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m): There > are meritorious, demeritorious and neither-meritorious-nor- > demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, the fine material > sphere and the Non-material sphere which are the aggregate of > corporeality, feeling, perception and the aggregate of consciousness. > These are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas > > Katame dhammaa saasavaa? Kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa > kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa, aruupaavacaraa; ruupakkhandho …pe… > vi~n~naa.nakkhandho– > ime dhammaa saasavaa. .... S: I was just quoting from the Atthasaalinii (PTS, Expositor) for another thread and came across the following in ‘Triplets in the Maatikiaa’, which I think is helpful too: “In the triplet of ‘Grasped and favourable to grasping,’ ‘grasped’ means- seized-as-effect by a kamma, attended by craving and wrong view in the act of sensing or thinking of an object. Upaadaaniyaa means ‘favourable to grasping’ because of the connection with grasping *by having become objects*. The term is applied to objects of grasping. Effects grasped and favourable to grasping’ (upaadinnupaadaaniyaa) is a name given to material and mental states born of kamma attended by the ‘intoxicants’ (aasava’s). In this way, but in the negative sense, the meaning of the remaining two terms should be understood. Pali***: “Upaadinnupaadaaniyattike aaramma.nakara.navasena ta.nhaadiihi upetena kammunaa aaci.n.naa phalabhaavena gahitaa ti upaadinnaa. *Aaramma.nabhaava.m upagantvaa* upaadaanasambhanena upaadaanaana.m hitaa ti upaadaaniyaa. Upaadaanassa aaramma.napaccayabhuutaana.m eta.m adhivacana.m. Upaadinnaa ca te upaadaaniyaa ca upaadinnupaadaaniyaa. Saasavakammanibbattaana.m ruupaaruupadhammaanam eta.m adhivacana.m. Iminaa nayena sesapadadvayena pa.tisedhasahito attho veditabbo.” ***** >S: From the commentary note which B.Bodhi quotes on p.1059 of SN: “Spk:...’With taints (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for the taints by way of object; so too ‘that can be clung to (upaadaaniya) means what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its object]. Among the aggregates subject to clinging, stated by way of the practice of insight, the form aggregate is sense sphere, the others pertain to the three planes (i.e, excluding only the supramundane.)”< .... Metta, Sarah ***p.s sorry to others for so much Pali – I know Steve and Nina find it helpful in this tricky context! I hope those who prefer to ignore it, did so! ====================================================== 49993 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nilovg Hi Howard, op 11-09-2005 21:27 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ============================ > It happens that "my" list, ASG, is just now commencing a discussion of > the ten paramis. Do I have your permission to write this url there? If yes, > may > I mention DSG as the source? ---------- N: Yes, of course, I am very glad it can be of use to others. It is meant for all who are interested. What an excellent idea to discuss the perfections on your list. What is ASG? If people have questions about the text it may interest us on DSG. Phil would like it, I am sure. Nina. 49994 From: nina Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:04am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 191 and Tiika, part 1. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 191, Part I. Intro: In the foregoing sections the Visuddhimagga explained different aspects of present, past and future in relation to ruupakkhandha. As we have seen, ruupas of the body originate from kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature. In the section of serial presence, or presence as continuity (Vis. 188), it deals with the factors of citta, nutrition and temperature that produce groups of ruupa in a series. The text states: ****** Text Vis.: 191. Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition [74] have elapsed is 'past'. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is 'present'. That which has not attained to either function is 'future'. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. And here only the explanations beginning with the 'moment' are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense. --------------------------- Note 74 taken from the Tiika: ' "Cause" (hetu) is what gives birth (janaka); "condition"(paccaya) is what consolidates (upatthambhaka). Their respective functions are arousing and consolidating. Just as the seed's function is to arose the sprout and that of the earth, etc., is to consolidate it, and just as kamma's function is to arouse result as matter that is due to kamma performed, and that of nutriment is to consolidate it, so the function of those [conditions] that give birth to each material group and each thought-arising, -------- N: that give birth severally to the material groups and to the arising of citta. --------- Tiika: and serve as kamma and proximity-conditions, etc., for them, and the function of those that consolidate them serve as conascence, prenascence, and postnascence conditions for them may be construed accordingly as appropriate. -------- N: Proximity-condition refers to each citta that is succeeded by the next citta. The citta that falls away conditions the arising of the next citta. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas that each perform their own function. The last citta of this life is succeeded by the first citta of the next life. That is why there can be accumulation of kamma, and also of good and evil tendencies. Conascence-condition: ruupas that arise together in one group condition each other by way of conascence-condition. Citta and cetasikas that arise together condition each other by way of conascence-condition. As we have seen, the citta and all the accompanying cetasikas support one another. When, for example kusala citta arises it needs the support of all the accompanying sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence in kusala, non-forgetfulness of kusala, chanda or wish-to-do, wieldiness and so on. When akusala citta arises it is supported by the akusala cittas such as lack of shame, fearlessness of the consequences of akusala, ignorance, agitation etc. As to prenascence-condition: ruupa that is the physical base for citta has to arise before the citta it conditions by way of base, because ruupa is weak at its arising moment. Also the ruupas that are sense-objects have to arise before the citta that experience them. In those cases ruupa conditions citta and cetasikas by way of prenascence-condition. Postnascence-condition: ruupas of the body that have arisen and have not fallen away yet, are conditioned by citta that arises afterwards and preserves them. This is postnascence-condition. The Tiika explains here that conascence, prenascence, and postnascence conditions have the function of consolidating. --------- Tiika: 'Because there is similarity and dissimilarity in temperature, etc., in the way stated, the pastness, etc., of material instances originated by it are stated according to continuity. But there is no such similarity and dissimilarity in the kamma that gives birth to a single becoming, ------- N: Kusala kamma of the past produced our rebirth-consciousness as a human, and three decads of ruupas that arose at the same time. -------- Tiika: so instead of stating according to continuity the pastness, etc., of material instances originated by that, it is stated according to what consolidates. ------ N: Kamma not only generates ruupa, but also consolidates ruupa that is originated by heat, nutrition and citta. As we have seen, kamma in its function of generating, has not been classified as present, past and future. But, the Tiika mentions that it consolidates ruupa that is originated by heat, nutrition and citta. These ruupas arise and fall away. They are past, present and future. The translator Pe Maung Tin adds: ******** (to be continued) Nina. 49995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nilovg Hi Howard, op 11-09-2005 16:31 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > With respect, I think that to say that dukkha is just a characteristic > without further explanation tends to mystify more than to reveal. > I see the term 'dukkha' as having several different but related senses: > The primary sense is that of "suffering" or "mental pain". This is the > subjective, internal sense of 'dukkha'. Dukkha in this sense has arisen > whenever > there is the experience of distress. ------ N: this is dukkha-dukkha, intrinsic suffereing. -------- H: A secondary but closely related sense is that of "a condition for > suffering or mental pain." This is an objective, external sense of 'dukkha'. > As I see > it, not only the obviously mentally painful dhammas are dukkha in this sense, > but all conditioned dhammas are dukkha in this sense. This does *not* mean > that a conditioned dhamma, by itself, must produce distress, but that together > with other requisite dhammas, such as craving, aversion, and clinging, it > will. > It is one among several conditions the coming together of which will produce > distress. Tanha (and upadana) cannot be ignored in the production of mental > pain (dukkha in the primary sense), because the fundamental role of these in > the > production of dukkha is the content of the second noble truth. ------ N: right, here we speak about the cause of dukkha: clinging. But as to dukkha itself, I follow the Dispeller of Delusion (p. 113, under Classification of the Truths, Sacca), three kinds: dukkhadukkha, dukkha in change and sankhaara dukkha. ------ H: A third sense, also objective and external, is a generalization of the > second, and it is closest to a sense of 'dukkha' that makes dukkha intrinsic. > This third sense of 'dukkha' is that of "unsatisfying" or "unsatisfactory", > or, > most precisely, "unable to be a source of genuine and lasting satisfaction, > and thus undependable." All conditioned dhammas are dukkha in this sense. ------- N: Unsatisfactoriness, a translation which can be used but each translation lacks the true sense. It is really difficult to understand. For the third kind of dukkha I do not think so much of the subject and his suffering, rather of the characteristic of dukkha, one of the three general characteristics. Take as example lokuttara citta, this cannot be object of clinging, but it is impermanent and thus it has the characteristic of dukkha. (Dispeller, p. 113). It is said that sankhara dukkha is dukkha, being oppressed by rise and fall. I add (p. 113):, by their neing included in the truth of suffering.> The characteristic of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, cannot be understood now. Insight has to be developed in stages and just before enlightenment it will be thoroughly understood. That is why it is said that the four noble Truths are deep and difficult to understand. Anyway, I find it beneficial and necessary to realize what I do not understand. Nina. . 49996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. nilovg Hi Phil and James, this is on Rob K's web, Vipassana: http://www.vipassana.info/Dhammapada_contents.htm I like the Dhammapada very much. I agree with James. It would be nice, James, if you could elaborate on this, but you are busy with the school. BTW Lodewijk and I are also worried about Amr's motorbyke. When in Cairo I once saw the traffic there. Human life is precious, we still have the opportunity to study the Dhamma, to learn. We should be careful. Take care, Nina. op 12-09-2005 03:30 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: > Dear Phil and James, > The Dhammapada is very deep. The theravada commentary to it beautifully > explains the pithy meaning of each sutta. 49997 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > So? Again, do you have evidence that Buddhaghosa didn't write the > Vism. as a way to prove his competence to the monks of Sri Lanka? > Or are you agreeing that this is what happened? I provided a quote > by a scholar and you provided a quote from the Vism. that says > absolutely nothing related to this subject. ... S: I don't intend to go back over who said what. I provided a quote which included Buddhaghosa's own words about his motives in giving commentaries. Yes, Buddhaghosa certainly proved his competence to the Mahavihara monks of Sri Lanka. The whole Visuddhimaggga is said to be a commentary on the verses given by those monks to test his ability, it's true. I believe his primary motive in compiling the commentaries, including the Visuddhimagga was for the purpose of extending the Buddha sasana. This is what he wrote at the end of his work on the Visuddhimagga (B.C. Law's translation): " 'The interpretation of the meanings of the sila, etc has been told in the A.t.thakathaas [commentaries] of the five Nikaayas. All of them being taken into consideration, the interpretation gradually becomes manifest, being free from all faults due to confusion; and it is for this reason that the Visuddhimagga should be liked by the Yogis who are desirous of obtaining purity and who have pure wisdom.' " '.......this has been composed by me for the long existence of the True Law. On account of the power of the merit acquired by me without any hindrance, let all creatures obtain happiness. The Visuddhimagga has been finished in 58 chapters without any obstacle.....' " **** S: I'm going to leave this thread here, James. If you wish to research further, I recommend you read any of the texts I mentioned. The small paperback book by B.C.Law on Buddhaghosa is very easy to read. Let me know off-list if you'd like me to help you get a copy. Metta, Sarah ========= 49998 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: The same commentary I was quoting from, but further on: > commentary to the Metta Sutta 74,Conclusion, Khuddakapaa.tha, > Khuddakanikaaya: > > "There the bhikkhus maintained lovingkindness in being, and making > that the basis, they established insight [into the three general > characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not-self,] till all > of them reached Arahantship, the highest fruit, in that same Rains, > and they were able to hold the Pavaara.naa Ceremony in purity." > > James: Okay, thanks for the quote. Most of my Nikayas are still > packed and in storage so I don't have access. Also, you seem to > have commentaries not included in my Nikaya copies, or expanded > commentaries, or something. .... S: This is a translation published by the PTS a long time ago. (I’ve had my copy for 30 years!). Hope you get access to your texts soon and consider this one sometime. .... Anyway, I don't see how this quote > proves anything. I have been arguing that metta meditation can be > practiced by anyone who has reason for non-remorse (that they > ethically follow the five precepts), while you have been arguing > that such meditation can only be practiced by Ariyans (Sotapannas > and above). .... S: Not quite. I was saying that fully developed metta to this degree of jhana, encompassing the ‘universal’ aspects and so on was/is only for those with the right conditions in place, i.e highly developed samatha based on right understanding. ..... >You have provided a lot of commentary quotes, sounding > very authorative, but they haven't been saying what you claim they > say. I don't know if you are trying to convince me or yourself. .... S: That’s easy: no more quotes:). (Don’t I usually only quote when you ask me too??) .... > But, you must admit, you have the burden of proof because your non- > meditation stance is contrary to thousands of years of Buddhist > practice. ... S: There you go. You like to ask me to provide proof with all sorts of controversial comments, but you don’t like the proof from either my experience or my texts:) LOL So now, show me in your texts where your meditation practice, just as you follow and understand it, is indicated in those ‘thousands of years of Buddhist practice’! Where does it speak about carrying on your normal, active, social daily life and then returning home, sitting in seclusion and cross-legged and radiating universal metta? .... > > Sarah: Yet as we discussed before, it is only the sotapanna who no > longer regrets or has remorse about deeds done or not done.... > > James: I don't recall discussing this issue with you before and if I > did I know that I would have disagreed with you. ... S: Actually, it wasn’t quite right. I should have said that the sotapanna regrets less often because he understands about kamma and conditions. Also he/she won’t regret anymore about deeds done which could lead to unhappy rebirths as all such possibility has been eradicated. Also, there won’t be taking any regret or remorse for his/her regret. We had a long discussion about sotapannas. You didn’t like any of my references, such as those from the commentary to ‘The Simile of the Cloth’, remember? Stinginess and envy are eradicated completely. ..... >You place the > sotapanna at a level of behavior and thinking which is not supported > by the suttas (commentaries maybe, but they can't be trusted). Take > this quote from the article Joop recently linked, it summarizes my > thinking on this subject perfectly: > > "Nanavira points to passages in the Pali Canon where the stream > entrant is shown to be capable of anger, jealousy, deceit and > drunkenness, transgressing the lesser monastic rules, even disrobing > on account of sensual desire, and, as a layman, breaking the five > precepts. "Unless you bring the [practitioner] down to earth," he > writes, "the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So > long as you are content to put the sotopanna (stream entrant) on a > pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that > it is your duty to become sotapanna yourself ... here and now in > this very life."86 > http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/existence3.html .... S: There is great danger, on the otherhand, of thinking (as many do) that they are sotapannas and that therefore the texts don’t really say what they do because it’s inconvenient to question such status. As I quoted to you before, from the Sallekha sutta and commentary, such over-estimating of attainments is a very big obstacle. (Mike wrote some useful comments on this recently. See his p.s in #48874). OK, I can’t resist, this is for Mike, from the comy note to the Sallekha sutta, Nyanaponika transl: “..The Thera’s question concerns those who overrate the degree of their achievement, i.e those who believe that, in their meditative practice, they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. Overestimation (abhimaana), in that sense, ‘does not arise in ignorant common people (baala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly life, nor does it arise in the Noble Disciples (ariya-saavaka).....Self-overestimation can only occur in one who actually practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by way of tranquility or insight.” ..... S: I think there were many serious errors (and such over-estimation??) in Nanavira’s reasonings. Many such errors have been discussed before at length. I think we’ve probably exhausted this thread too.....perhaps others may pursue it, though of course I’m always (well, a bit of over-generalising there!!) glad to read your further comments, James. Best wishes for a happy and rewarding school year. I’m sure your students will enjoy your lively and imaginative classes and expertise in discussions and debates (which I use in a complimentary sense). Metta, Sarah ======== 49999 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 539 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga, which is part of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or companions of enlightenment. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'P-F of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'P-F of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'P-F of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'P-F of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'P-F of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'P-F of right concentration' (ekaggataa) The last three factors are called samaadhi-magganga or 'concentration-group or tranquility-group of path factors'. They are right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. At least they are interconnected. When there is right effort there also is right mindfulness as all mindfulness do have effort. When there are right effort and right mindfulness this mindfulness supported by effort leads to right concentration. The Buddha said 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaa-vaayaamo? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu a)anuppannaanam paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti, vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m paggahnaati padahati, b)uppannaanam paapakaanam akusalaanam dhammaanam pahaanaaya chanda.m janeti, vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m paggahnaati padahati, c)anuppannaanam kusalaanam dhammaanam uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti, vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m paggahnaati padahati, d) uppannaanam kusalaanam dhammaanam .thitiyaa asammosaaya bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti, vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati, citta.m paggahnaati padahati. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-vaayamo'. The Buddha said 'Which are right effort? a)in order not to arise unarisen unprofitable dhamma one generates 'will', tries, energizes, encourages mind and produce effort. b) in order to eliminate arisen unprofitable things one --- c) in order to arise unarisen profitable things one --- d) in order to increase exponentially arisen profitable things one -. These can be called 'right effort'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful.