50000 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi Mike, I forgot to add your name at the top of my last post, so am requoting the relevant part at the end of this one in case you skipped it. While I'm addressing you, I also agreed with your comment about concepts of rupa: "....what we usually take as 'ruupa' is actually a concept developed long after the ruupa has ceased and is no longer experiencable in the mind door..". S: Yes! I also thought your comments on desirable objects and the passage about merchants was spot-on in #49428. And the conclusion: "..I think it's so important to distinguish between 'conventional' (vohaara) and 'ultimate' (paramatha) modes of experession in the texts." Keep up the pertinent reflections. Metta, Sarah --- sarah abbott wrote: >> S: There is great danger, on the otherhand, of thinking (as many do) > that > they are sotapannas and that therefore the texts don’t really say what > they do because it’s inconvenient to question such status. As I quoted > to > you before, from the Sallekha sutta and commentary, such over-estimating > of attainments is a very big obstacle. (Mike wrote some useful comments > on > this recently. See his p.s in #48874). > > OK, I can’t resist, this is for Mike, from the comy note to the Sallekha > sutta, Nyanaponika transl: > “..The Thera’s question concerns those who overrate the degree of their > achievement, i.e those who believe that, in their meditative practice, > they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. > Overestimation (abhimaana), in that sense, ‘does not arise in ignorant > common people (baala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly > life, nor does it arise in the Noble Disciples > (ariya-saavaka).....Self-overestimation can only occur in one who > actually > practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by > way > of tranquility or insight.” 50001 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:29am Subject: Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] bardosein Hi Sarah, After checking out your suggested links in the UP index, I ordered a copy of Law's book from Pilgrim's books on-line. I almost bought a copy this summer when I was in Katmandu, but didn't as I like to travel light. I'm looking forward to reading it. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > So? Again, do you have evidence that Buddhaghosa didn't write the > > Vism. as a way to prove his competence to the monks of Sri Lanka? > > Or are you agreeing that this is what happened? I provided a quote > > by a scholar and you provided a quote from the Vism. that says > > absolutely nothing related to this subject. > ... > S: I don't intend to go back over who said what. I provided a quote which > included Buddhaghosa's own words about his motives in giving commentaries. > > > Yes, Buddhaghosa certainly proved his competence to the Mahavihara monks > of Sri Lanka. > > The whole Visuddhimaggga is said to be a commentary on the verses given by > those monks to test his ability, it's true. I believe his primary motive > in compiling the commentaries, including the Visuddhimagga was for the > purpose of extending the Buddha sasana. > > This is what he wrote at the end of his work on the Visuddhimagga (B.C. > Law's translation): > > " 'The interpretation of the meanings of the sila, etc has been told in > the A.t.thakathaas [commentaries] of the five Nikaayas. All of them being > taken into consideration, the interpretation gradually becomes manifest, > being free from all faults due to confusion; and it is for this reason > that the Visuddhimagga should be liked by the Yogis who are desirous of > obtaining purity and who have pure wisdom.' > > " '.......this has been composed by me for the long existence of the True > Law. On account of the power of the merit acquired by me without any > hindrance, let all creatures obtain happiness. The Visuddhimagga has been > finished in 58 chapters without any obstacle.....' " > **** > S: I'm going to leave this thread here, James. If you wish to research > further, I recommend you read any of the texts I mentioned. The small > paperback book by B.C.Law on Buddhaghosa is very easy to read. Let me know > off-list if you'd like me to help you get a copy. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= 50002 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Swee Boon, Htoo & all,(Phil, skip to p.s again!) Buddhadatta dict simply gives 'accumulation' for 'aacaya' too. ..... Sarah p.s Thanks for your good discussions with others on the jhana thread. Metta, Sarah ========== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Swee Boon, and all, So it is aacaya? It derives from caya. Caya means 'piling' 'heaping up' 'collection' 'mass'. So aacaya means 'coming to pile up' 'accumulation' etc etc. Upacaya also have similar meaning. It is initial formation of ruupa and ruupa is in its buliding up stage when it has the character of 'upacaya'. Thanks for the word 'accumulation'. With respect, Htoo Naing 50003 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:47am Subject: Re: How to Enter the Stream ... ??? Bhikkhu Samahita help us!! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Htoo - > > Your style in answering questions and your way to approach the > Dhamma are very unique and, at times, unpredictable. > > Htoo wrote: > > I have to concentrate a lot whenever I read that poetic expression of > > simple English. Examples are perfume shop, flower shop etc etc. But > > these are in Milanda Pa~n~naa. > Tep: What about those perfume and flower shops? > I love the Milinda Panha, Htoo. May I make a formal request that you > present a series of selected paragraphs from the book? This series > will be very useful indeed, at least in my opinion. > Sincerely, > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Milinda Panha is a good book. It is also one of my favorite texts. It is more like commentaries. I think it is supportive to abhidhammatthasangaha. Dhamma Thread series is actually explanations on abhidhammatthasangaha in my own words or in my own style. When this has not been finished, I am afraid to start another big series. With regards, Htoo Naing 50004 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:52am Subject: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_ Ledi Sayadaw states: "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. Considering this, and his apparent profound knowlege of the scriptures as well as the fact that he dedicated six months of each year to intensive practise, I'm curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. Hal 50005 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_ Ledi Sayadaw states: "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. Considering this, and his apparent profound knowlege of the scriptures as well as the fact that he dedicated six months of each year to intensive practise, I'm curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. Hal -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Hal, Ledi Sayadaw was not an English. He did not express in English. So it is hard to give any comment on Ledi Sayadaw's expression. 'Buddhism views the world,...' Well, Buddhism cannot view anything. But Buddhists will view the world. 'When they (Buddhists) view the world....' Well, here you know who are viewing. And you know what is viewed. Again what is 'the world'? The world is 'pancupadaana-kkhandhaa'. Pancupadaana-kkhandhaa are viewed as impermanent. This is very true and you can test now. 'Akaliko' will be proved. Do 'pancupadaana-kkhandha' have any soul-essence? You can answer for yourself. Are 'pancupadaana-kkhandha' not liable to suffering? You can asnwer for yourself. 'Sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa, yadaa pa~n~naaya passati'. 'Sabbe sankhaaraa dukkhaa, yadaa pa~n~naaya passati'. 'Sabbe dhammaa anattaa, yadaa pa~n~naaya passati'. So what is 'your word unconventional view' here? If you are not a Buddhist, you can ask these 3 sentences to Buddhists. They will be happy to answer you. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50006 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 540 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga, which is part of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or companions of enlightenment. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'P-F of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'P-F of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'P-F of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'P-F of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'P-F of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'P-F of right concentration' (ekaggataa) 7. samma-sati or path-factor of right mindfulness There are many sati-s. Sati always arise with each and every beautiful consciousness. There is no 'beautiful consciousness' that do not have any sati. But among these sati-s the highest or the greatest in terms of profitability is samma-sati of Noble Eightfold Path or NEP. The Buddha said _ 'Katamo ca bhikkhave samma-sati? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, vedanaasu vedanaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, citte citaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m, dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharati, aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaa domanassa.m. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-sati.' The Buddha said_ 'Which are path-factor of mindfulness? In this dispensation of mine, the monk who has well been instructed contemplates on body in body with diligent non-withdrawing effort, with clear understanding, and thorough mindfulness, which is unforgetfulness in profitable things in order not to arise 'avarices and menatl aggression' that may arise from inappropriate attention to 5 clinging aggregates, contemplates on feeling in feeling --< the same >-- contemplates on consciousness in consciousness --< the same >-- contemplates on dhamma in dhamma --< the same >-- . These can be called as path-factor of mindfulness, O! Monks.' Only such sati-s or such mindfulness is called samma-sati or path- factor of mindfulness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 50007 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:53am Subject: Vipassanaa htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, After some basic dhamma have been learnt, it is better to move to follow the Path that leads to cessation of suffering. That path is the only Path and there is no other substitue for that path. It is satipatthaana or vipassanaa. The practitioner can follow the practice flexibly and in a away that help him follow the Path. In the whole path there are necessary things. In short there need 'good morality' 'good concentration' and along with these 'good penetration' will help seeing cessation of suffering. The practitioner can practise in any posture. That is he or she can practise when walking or moving in any posture, when standing, when sitting, when lying in bed or on any ground or floor. When the path is to follow it is better that the body can support the necessary energy. Among different postures, sitting help building up of a good concentration and balance with realization. Again when sitting it is important not to strain the body. That is why sitting in cross-legged posture is practised by many. The body is composed of back-bones. If these back-bones are not in straight back then muscles will be strained and then long sitting will be hindered. Then start to note 'the movements that arise from the actions of breathing'. Or alternatively breathing related matters like touches at nose or lip can be noted. If movements are centred there will see that the body is like a bellow and it ballons out and relaxes alternatively. The mind can concentrate at anywhere from the nostrils down to abdomen including throat, neck, chest, shoulders, etc etc. When breathing is focused well there will start to know from the beginning to the end of the whole cycle of breathing. Throughout that in-out breathing cycle there are many phenomena. Some are material phenomena and some are mental phenomena. Material phenomena are like_ initial entering of air, sustained entering of the air, raising of the chest, expansion of the chest, expansion of arms, rising of the abdomen and then initiation of falling of the abdomen, falling back of chest, moving out of air through the nostrils etc etc. These are material phenomena. They themselves can never know anything. But still there are other phenomena like mental phenomena. Thay are consciousness. That is consciousness to all those material phenomena. This is separate thing from material phenomena. Movements are known, rising is known, falling back is known and any phenomena that is kown during that noting is known by consciousness. That knower is not a self by consciousness and it is mental phenomena. The mental phenomena are also not a single thing. But a mixtures of many mental phenomena like feeling, perception, understanding and many other things. These are to be noted as long as the practitioner remembers to do so. As soon as he or she forgets then there is no sati or mindfulness. As soon as remember to note these phenomena as they are then there is sati of unforgetfulness or mindfulness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50008 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:02am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Your response was encouraging, thank you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I know your description is just a short response to my own comment. > > But I hope you don't mind me using it as an example of how I now > perceive and understand another's statement. You can then let me > know what I missed. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: OK, my guru. Sukinder: No, *you* are the Guru most, if not all the time. :-) ============================== > Sukin: > > "I do satipatthana", this is hard for me not to see as involving > `self', i.e. one of the three papanca dhammas. So with what follows; > > "When I wake up, get out of bed, going to the toilet, washing hand……." > > It is one thing to talk about one's conventional activities, there > may not necessarily be any ditthi involved, however when one is > talking about dhamma practice using the same kind of expressions, > then I think self-view is there. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Dear Sukin, my guru, may I correct here? I did know that you will be > talking on these expressions. These are for communication purpose and > not 'the programmes of practice' in description. Sukinder: Good. I was hoping this was the case. But like I said, I meant also to use it as an example of how I perceive another's statement. ============================== > Sukin: > Better know that there is no understanding "now", than to believe a > story about a better time, place and posture. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > May I ask you a question? > > Is it suitable to build a vipassana retreat centre on a busy road, > and where neighbouring buildings are discos and brothels with audible > sexy voice and exploding noise? > > You might be right to say 'it is wrong to choose a time and a place > to better developing of satipatthaana'. But please answer my question. Sukinder: Since you know that I don't believe in retreats, let me try to answer indirectly. When I first joined DSG, I used to complain to Ivan (Matt R.) about the noise level in my workplace and how this was interfering with dhamma study. He tried to tell me that it made no difference and it took me quite a long time to appreciate this point. It is only one's akusala which is the real problem and wrong understanding makes it even more so. Vipaka arise and falls away instantly, but the tendency to akusala makes a problem out of experiences. The sound having arisen is seen as a thing lasting and we can't distinguish between the `concept' of sound and the actual sound itself. When dosa arises, the tendency is to then pay more attention to what appears through the ear, and this adding of fuel continues until we can't help blaming something or someone for it. When in fact, was there not the above kind of akusala cittas, what appears through the different senses and the mind alternate in a way that even with relatively less understanding, there would not be any reason to want things to be different. I am not saying that all outward conditions are the same; the hell plane after all is in direct contrast to the heavenly plane. And the human plane is said to be best for the development of satipatthana. But what conditions would act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for sati to arise is not in the concept of *place*, but the actual object of citta at any given moment. And we are far, far away from knowing precisely the actual dhammas. So especially with our yet very weak level of understanding, one that so easily tends to mistake concept for reality, I think it best that we learn more about this distinction rather than *believe* in the stories about better time and place. It is natural for us to react with dosa to noisy places, and with lobha to peace and quiet. And it is said that lobha is harder to perceive as an enemy, compared to dosa. So do you think it is easier at the retreat for sati to arise especially with preconceived ideas and expectations? And what about the other side, i.e. the tendency to lobha "sexy voice", "brothels" etc. being more than in a retreat? Same here, if seen with wrong understanding, then the retreat will only serve as conditions for more lobha. =============================== > Sukin: > "Descriptive/Prescriptive" > > Given that the Buddha spoke in response to particular audience and > knowing the complexity of individual accumulations, do you think it > wise to imitate? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Ha ha ha ha. Apology. I laugh because I already knew the idea that > ramified you. I laugh the word 'imitate'. > > You seem to be assuming that 'Htoo is thinking in a way that he > imitates the great disciples, who have a good accumulation while he > does not have any accumulation and developing akusala by 'doing' > imitated satipatthaana like 'very slowly walking...' Sukinder: No, I wasn't thinking that you `imitate', or for the matter anyone on DSG. But I was pointing out to the importance of coming to realize that our level of understanding is not the same as those during the Buddha's time, and that we should realize what our own level is and accept it. We can't understand more than the accumulations allow. =============================== > Sukin: > The level of understanding which arose in the Buddha's audience would > be enough to condition other kusala dhammas with panna or > enlightenment even, but for us it would only be pariyatti at varying > levels, if not a misunderstanding altogether. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I do not know your accumulation while I do not know my own > accumulation or others. Sukinder: Yes, and I was only giving a general comment with the idea that we should not over estimate our own level of understanding. ================================= > Sukin: > Should we be quick to think that the same words apply to us in the > same way and be driven to certain outward actions? > > Should we not be humble and truthful to our own level of > understanding and view the teachings as descriptive rather than > prescriptive? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are 2 kinds of people. One is text writer and another is text > reader. Text writers has to know everything when he writes while text > reader has just to read and understand. Sukinder: :-) ============================== > Sukin: > > "Culapanthaka" > Sukin: > > 4. While he was what we might conventionally regard as > being "unintelligent", there was no indication of him having "wrong > view", which is the one hindrance to following the Path. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Did you say 'Culapanthaka did not have ditthi before he became an > arahat on that day? Sukinder: I suppose he must have, but I was trying to distinguish his case from the more obvious cases. In his case I believe the primary hindrance was moha rooted in uddacca and that moha with doubt must have arisen relatively less. I was distinguishing mainly with modern day Buddhists who flock like sheep to meditation retreats mostly with miccha ditthi. =============================== > Sukin: > Today both student and teacher are more likely to have wrong view; > does "saddha" have any place in such a situation? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If one really understand saddhaa there is no way to follow wrong path. Sukinder: Saddha must be with panna. The panna which recognizes the unique teaching of the Buddha and what "practice" in His Teachings really is. Otherwise the saddha may be towards other forms of kusala. But the danger is, if someone misunderstands the Buddha's teachings, then development of other forms of kusala can also go wrong. =============================== > Sukin: > > I think maybe you understand rightly but only need to use different > expression? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Of course. I do not know whether I rightly understand Dhamma. But I > think I understand Dhamma rightly. Sukinder: You once asked me if I thought you had wrong view. At that time besides other conditions there was also your decision to go off-line for a few days that caused me not to respond. But now I will. My impression of you from the beginning has been that you have learnt much from the Burmese tradition and because of this, you feel much gratitude and respect towards the Sayadaws. You know that my understanding, influenced by DSG members and K. Sujin is in some very fundamental level, different from your own. However as you know, I have very high esteem for what I regard as your accumulations, and in almost every good thing, you are far superior to me. But I do think that your understanding of patipatti and even pariyatti is not exactly the same as mine. I think this is because K. Sujin is the only teacher I know of, who teaches the way she does, and the Burmese Sayadaws whom you follow, are different. So from my perspective, I consider your background influence as the main obstacle to appreciating K. Sujin's way. Otherwise I think, that once you can overcome this, you will "bloom" and I shall learn even more from you than I do now. ;-) Must go now. Metta, Sukinder 50009 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ buddhistmedi... Hello, Hal - I am curious about what you mean by "unconventional view" in your comment : > Hal: I'm curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. Regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_ > Ledi Sayadaw states: > > "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, > as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" > > According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the > canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. Considering this, and > his apparent profound knowlege of the scriptures as well as the fact > that he dedicated six months of each year to intensive practise, I'm > curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. > > Hal 50010 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:15am Subject: The Core Duality ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Reality is just Sequential Moments of Mentality & Materiality! Nama-Rupa (Name & Form, Naming & Forming)! The mind is that, which knows the object...!!! The object is that, which is known...!!! These two processes always arise and cease together, instantly & simultaneously... Neither inside, nor within, nor apart from these two, is any observer, person, I, Me, or other assumed entity as a hidden variable, ever involved! The mind is immaterial, formless and invisible. The object may be 'material', 'physical', 'formed' and even 'visible' only and exactly to the extent and in so far as it is experiencable by mind! No same, constant, lasting 'real', 'actual' or 'Substantial Substance' ever has existed 'Out There' independently or separable from the mind, that momentarily perceived & thereby apprehended, displayed, manifested and designated it! This core dual pair of Mentality & Materiality, is thus one united continuum, like the two ends of the same stick! They do never emerge, nor do they ever exist, nor can they ever be observed separately, in and of themselves, but they can only arise in mutual dependence, like two thin creepers can only arise & stand up if intertwined. Mentality & materiality thus arise & cease simultaneously in each contiguous moment! They are thus the most basic & primary pair on the bottom of the dynamic process of being in any existence... Matter is delimited, defined, characterized, conceptualized, classified, designated & even named by mind! Therefore can matter never be separated from mind, like if one tries to break the 'dual' stick, always ends up with 2 sticks, still each with two ends!! Therefore one unambiguously always will be observing a pair-wise new arisen event of mentality & materiality...!!! Thus, the basic founding - yet often unnoticed, unspoken & maybe even sometimes actively denied - assumption underlying every modern Western science that: 'Matter can be observed & analyzed objectively, independently of mind!' is therefore utterly false, futile and even somewhat childish...The naive physicist who postulates: 'Independently of Mind, "I!" will observe, describe and evaluate matter!!!' extending out of his range of understanding, thus speaks folly & false and is thereby later ultimately enforced to introduce 'mysti-phystical' entities as 'hidden variables' into his explanations, in order to reach completeness, coherence & consistence... He seems to be in complete oblivion of the fact, that even before anyone even thinks of, even speaks of, or experiment with any 'matter', mind have indeed been long at work...!!! The basic hidden, yet always present, factor in any observation, is naturally mind itself! However, this factor is not so hidden, that it cannot be observed & analyzed, and that even without any laboratory, or even a single 'instrument', apart from a pillow to sit on!!! Everyone, without even a single exception, who sits down with closed eyes, will instantly be overwhelmed by a veritable storm of mentally created distractions: This is the Mind! When this dynamic self-sustaining duality of mentality-materiality, this perpetum mobile, cease to evolve, consciousness thereby ceases to establish itself on another object! This - only this, in and of itself - is the very final End of all Suffering... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50011 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:11am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Hi Tep, Thanks for your question. In retrospect, I should have just said "view" and left out the word "unconventional" all together. By unconventional view, I had meant a view that cannot be supported by what is stated in the scriptures or asserted in the commentaries. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hello, Hal - > > I am curious about what you mean by "unconventional view" in your > comment : > > > Hal: I'm curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > =========== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" > wrote: > > In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_ > > Ledi Sayadaw states: > > > > "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, > > as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" > > > > According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the > > canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. Considering this, and > > his apparent profound knowlege of the scriptures as well as the fact > > that he dedicated six months of each year to intensive practise, I'm > > curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. > > > > Hal 50012 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Hi Htoo Naing, I have explained my rather unfortunate use of the term "unconventional" in my reply to Teps. You say that "Ledi Sayadaw was not an English. He did not express in English. So it is hard to give any comment on Ledi Sayadaw's expression." You are right to be concerned about the translation. However, the translator, U Nyana Mahathera, was competent in English and was a direct disciple of Ledi Sayadaw, who the editor informs us also holds the view mentioned in the preface. When Ledi Sayadaw says "Buddhism views the world" I'm quite sure he doesn't think Buddhism views something. He is speaking of "right view" held by Buddhists. I'm confident the Venerable Sayadaw knows deeply the nature and mark of three characteristics. He does however claim that *pannatti* (concepts) are not subject to them. I'm interested in knowing how he could arrive at this conclusion. I merely inquiring into the BPS editor's remarks that don't elucidate on this matter. Metta, Hal 50013 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Erik with a K! (Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana ... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah & Erik(!!) - In a message dated 9/12/05 1:12:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Howard, I knew you'd be glad when you realised it was Erik you were talking to. However, you continued in one thread addressing Robert on the two jhanas....maybe #49660 or a later one. ======================== Geez!! I need more mindfulness practice! ;-)) My sincere apologies, Erik (and RobK). Either my mind is going, or it's my eyes that can't distinguish rjkip from rikpa!!!!! [But, hey, what can one expect of an aging retiree?? LOL!] Sarah, thank you for pointing this out my mistake. :-) In any case, again, Erik, I'm really happy that you are stateside. BTW, If you'd care to drop a line offlist to bring each other up to speed, I'd love to talk!:-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50014 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/12/05 4:04:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > It happens that "my" list, ASG, is just now commencing a discussion of > the ten paramis. Do I have your permission to write this url there? If yes, > may > I mention DSG as the source? ---------- N: Yes, of course, I am very glad it can be of use to others. It is meant for all who are interested. What an excellent idea to discuss the perfections on your list. What is ASG? ----------------------------------------- Howard: It's just a small Yahoo Buddhist list I experimentally started as "private" with a handful of members a while back and recently changed its status to "public." (Its title and abbreviation is kind of an homage to DSG.) It still has not so many members, but is managing to hobble along. Anyone who wants more details could contact me directly by email. ---------------------------------------- If people have questions about the text it may interest us on DSG. Phil would like it, I am sure. Nina. ========================= Thanks, Nina! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50015 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/12/05 4:04:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Unsatisfactoriness, a translation which can be used but each translation lacks the true sense. It is really difficult to understand. For the third kind of dukkha I do not think so much of the subject and his suffering, rather of the characteristic of dukkha, one of the three general characteristics. Take as example lokuttara citta, this cannot be object of clinging, but it is impermanent and thus it has the characteristic of dukkha. ====================== Though, I shall assume, lokuttara citta, itself, cannot be clung to, the thought of it and the memory of it can be clung to, and because the citta itself is impermanent, this leads to distress. So, as I see it, indirectly, clinging, not to the citta but to the thought and memory of it, is an essential factor. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50016 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ buddhistmedi... Hi, Hal (and Htoo) - Your answer was fair enough. In fact I am curious too about how the Sayadaw looked at pannatti, especially when the ti-lakkhana is considered at the same time. It can be confusing to a non-Paramattha- dhamma ordinary Buddhist like me. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Thanks for your question. In retrospect, I should have just > said "view" and left out the word "unconventional" all together. By > unconventional view, I had meant a view that cannot be supported by > what is stated in the scriptures or asserted in the commentaries. > > Hal > 50017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas and dukkha nilovg Hi Sarah, thank you, it is clearer, but see below. Lokuttara cittas are not objects of clinging but they are dukkha; arising and falling away. See my post to Howard. But not all texts of the Dispeller are clear to me. Nina. op 12-09-2005 06:40 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: As I suggested, unless the dhamma is the object of clinging, it is not > upadana khandha and cannot be understood in the ultimate sense as dukkha. > Hence it would appear that rupas can only be understood as upadana khandha > when there is clinging to them (i.e in the sense sphere). Hence the > necessity and value of the human realm for the development of ingisht, for > the development of understanding of all the khandhas without exception. 50018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nilovg Hi Howard, op 12-09-2005 15:23 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Though, I shall assume, lokuttara citta, itself, cannot be clung to, the > thought of it and the memory of it can be clung to, and because the citta > itself is impermanent, this leads to distress. So, as I see it, indirectly, > clinging, not to the citta but to the thought and memory of it, is an > essential > factor. -------- N: I think also the thought or memory have lokuttara citta as object, but this cannot be with clinging. But still, lokuttara citta has the characetristics of aniccaa, dukkha, anattaa. K. IV suttas: what is impermanent is dukkha. Nina. 50019 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, > James: Oh God, I don't want to get into the subject of metta with > you again. You're the one who brought up "the heart." What is "the heart" in Dhamma if not metta. ********* James: I didn't really mean metta when I wrote that the Dhammapada appeals to the heart. The Buddha often refers to the heart as the seat of wisdom so I don't think "heart" always means metta. At least I didn't mean it that way. But, let's just go ahead and discuss metta again. It could be fun. ;-)) ********** > (How can it be if it is rooted in > > lobha? If we want to have metta, how can it not be rooted in > lobha. > > Yes, I know, there can be chanda.) > > James: I don't know what you mean. Speak English to me and then > maybe I can respond. You know full well what chanda is. How would you translate it? I find using the Pali word more efficient in this and some other cases because we know exactly what is being discussed or because the usual English translation has too wide of a meaning or is misleading. (as with mana, which is usually translated as conceit.) Why do you use "metta?" If you're going to complain about Pali, stop using "metta." ********* James: Sorry to have written my comment in such a nasty tone. I didn't think much about it but I didn't mean it to be nasty. But, really (no lie) I don't know what chanda is. I don't know what lobha is either. I am very Pali illiterate, by choice. Wait a sec and I will open another window and look them up.... okay, chanda means: "zeal, desire, or wish-to-do. A cetasika, not the same as lobha." And lobha means: "attachment or greed." So, if I am correct in my interpretation, you were saying that the cultivation of metta can contain unwholesome desire or it can possibly, but not very unlikely, contain wholesome desire. I'm not sure about this. It seems to be a lot of guesswork and assumption. I just look at what the Buddha taught and he recommended the cultivation of metta- end of story. He didn't preface his teachings with all kinds of warnings about unwholesome desires. *************** > James: Thanks a lot. I will give your best wishes to Amr. He has > gotten a new motorcycle and has gotten into three accidents so far. > I know you don't believe in it, but maybe you can send some metta > his way- ask the devas to protect him. I am quite worried myself. I'm sorry to hear that. Have you discussed what drives him to drive recklessly? Of course you have. *********** James: Phil, he doesn't drive recklessly, as far as I can tell. You just couldn't imagine how bad the traffic is here in Cairo! I have never encountered anything as bad in my travels. Here is a description from the Internet: "The traffic in Cairo is absolutely crazy! Traffic lights? We saw only 2 working in a city of 17 million, but nobody was paying attention to them. Road signs and markings? Only suggestions that are pretty much ignored. At night, people drive with their headlights off. They use them, together with the horn, to indicate other drivers and pedestrians that they are coming through no matter what. Crosswalks? Same as traffic lights and road marks. Jaywalking is the rule!" http://stuff.mit.edu/people/palomera/Travels/Egypt/Videos/ *********** If you ask him to stand on the rooftop of the tallest building at exactly 3 pm Tokyo time (if you wouldn't mind calculating the time difference) and make sure that his ear is pointing towards Japan I will shout a message full of goodwill to him. That would have a better chance of reaching him than metta would. *********** James: Okay, what day should he do this?? ;-)) Maybe I can get him to the top of the Pyramid of Giza! ;-)) ************ I can feel metta towards him, and perhaps do now - but the idea of it flying through space to him is peculiar to me. But I know it is a common idea, so I may be wrong. May be. Anyways, say hi and tell him that there is a fellow in Japan who is concerned about his well being. If that is sending him metta, I send him metta. ************ James: Yes, that is sending him metta. Thank you. BTW, metta doesn't fly through space toward people. We are all connected. Just as one is reborn instantaneously across a great distance, metta is sent instantaneously. ************* Let's drop it at that, yeah. As you say, we don't want to get back into going around in circles on this point. ************* James: Okay, but I didn't drop it. You can drop it though if you want. No problem. ************* Phil ************ Metta, James 50020 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/12/05 10:47:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: I think also the thought or memory have lokuttara citta as object, but this cannot be with clinging. But still, lokuttara citta has the characetristics of aniccaa, dukkha, anattaa. ======================= But what, in that case, does it MEAN to be dukkha? It's insufficient to just *use* the word. And it's inadequate to say that the impermanence makes it dukkha. In what WAY does the impermanence make it dukkha? To say this is hard to understand clarifies nothing for me. A word such, 'dukkha' being the one in question, must have meaning. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50021 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:07am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_ > Ledi Sayadaw states: > > "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, > as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" > > According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the > canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. Considering this, and > his apparent profound knowlege of the scriptures as well as the fact > that he dedicated six months of each year to intensive practise, I'm > curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view. > > Hal ++++ Dear Hal, Without knowing the full context it is hard to write on this but I say something. Nibbana is not dukkha or anicca and pannatti is not impermanent eitehr because it does not exist. So Ledi Sayadaw was possibly making a simple distinction emphasising the ti-lakkha of nama and rupa. He probably should have spelled it out in detail to make it fully clear but also the editor might have their own bias . Do you have full text? Robertk ps. did you see my post about buddhadasa? 50022 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - As I see it, it is fundamental that tanha is a requisite condition for dukkha. [''But what, o monks, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to fresh rebirth and, bound up with lust and greed, now here, now there, finds ever fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (kama-tanha) the craving for existence (bhava-tanha) the craving for non-existence or self-annihilation (vibhava-tanha)"] Again, with much respect, I say that I accept tanha as the primary condition for dukkha, and I reject any Abhidhammic or commentarial position to the contrary. This principle, the second noble truth, is one of the most basic principles set forth by the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50023 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nidive Hi Nina, > N: I think also the thought or memory have lokuttara citta as > object, but this cannot be with clinging. But still, lokuttara > citta has the characetristics of aniccaa, dukkha, anattaa. > K. IV suttas: what is impermanent is dukkha. > Nina. I agree with you. What is impermanent is dukkha, even in the absence of clinging and craving. This form of dukkha is much harder to grasp, much more subtle, and I would say anyone who has not penetrated to this dukkha has not fully understood dukkha in its naked form. Regards, Swee Boon 50024 From: nina Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:33am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, 6. nilovg Dear friends, --------- 5. Lokuttara cittas arise at the moment of enlightenment. Only lokuttara cittas are accompanied by all three abstinences, thus by eight Path-factors. 6. The seven cetasikas accompanying each citta are the ³Universals² of contact, feeling, remembrance, volition, concentration, life faculty and attention. **** Nina. 50025 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:51am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ onco111 Hi Hal, Paññati are not dhamma and do not *exist*. One example: it cannot be said that the "Self" is characterized by anatta, anicca, and dukkha because there is no such thing as a "Self". Ditto for all concepts. I don't know for sure how Ledi Sayadaw describes this, but I do recall reading a lengthy essay of his (in Journal of Pali Text Society from the '20s if I recall), in which he discusses this issue. I'll look it up when time permits. Didn't U Narada also mention this (perhaps in his Guide to Conditional Relations, vol. 1, introduction)? I don't have my texts with me now... In any case, by your brief description, Ledi's notion seems wholly orthodox to me. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I have explained my rather unfortunate use of the > term "unconventional" in my reply to Teps. > > You say that "Ledi Sayadaw was not an English. He did not express in > English. So it is hard to give any comment on Ledi Sayadaw's > expression." You are right to be concerned about the translation. > However, the translator, U Nyana Mahathera, was competent in English > and was a direct disciple of Ledi Sayadaw, who the editor informs us > also holds the view mentioned in the preface. > > When Ledi Sayadaw says "Buddhism views the world" I'm quite sure he > doesn't think Buddhism views something. He is speaking of "right > view" held by Buddhists. I'm confident the Venerable Sayadaw knows > deeply the nature and mark of three characteristics. He does however > claim that *pannatti* (concepts) are not subject to them. I'm > interested in knowing how he could arrive at this conclusion. I > merely inquiring into the BPS editor's remarks that don't elucidate > on this matter. > > Metta, Hal 50026 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 0:47pm Subject: Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- buddhatrue wrote: > So? Again, do you have evidence that Buddhaghosa didn't write the > Vism. as a way to prove his competence to the monks of Sri Lanka? > Or are you agreeing that this is what happened? I provided a quote > by a scholar and you provided a quote from the Vism. that says > absolutely nothing related to this subject. ... S: I don't intend to go back over who said what. I provided a quote which included Buddhaghosa's own words about his motives in giving commentaries. ********* James: Oh, so you don't intend to do that, huh? Just what do you intend to do, your majesty? I pointed out, as I saw it, that the quote you provided was unrelated to the subject being discussed. You had provided the quote and yet you didn't explain with your own commentary as to the reasons it was related or why you quoted it. But, since you cannot be bothered with who said what to whom, I have no choice but to let it drop. ******** Yes, Buddhaghosa certainly proved his competence to the Mahavihara monks of Sri Lanka. ******** James: I agree. ******** The whole Visuddhimaggga is said to be a commentary on the verses given by those monks to test his ability, it's true. I believe his primary motive in compiling the commentaries, including the Visuddhimagga was for the purpose of extending the Buddha sasana. ******** James: You can't have it both ways. He either wrote the Vism. as a way to prove his competence to the senior monks of Sri Lanka or he did it to extend the Buddha Sasana, in a purely altruistic manner. Again, I have provided the research of scholars to support my side and you have provided quotes without supporting commentary. (BTW, I wouldn't normally take this very agressive tone with you but since you have decided to talk down to me I see no alternative.) ******** This is what he wrote at the end of his work on the Visuddhimagga (B.C. Law's translation): " 'The interpretation of the meanings of the sila, etc has been told in the A.t.thakathaas [commentaries] of the five Nikaayas. All of them being taken into consideration, the interpretation gradually becomes manifest, being free from all faults due to confusion; and it is for this reason that the Visuddhimagga should be liked by the Yogis who are desirous of obtaining purity and who have pure wisdom.' " '.......this has been composed by me for the long existence of the True Law. On account of the power of the merit acquired by me without any hindrance, let all creatures obtain happiness. The Visuddhimagga has been finished in 58 chapters without any obstacle.....' " **** ********* James: Well, here you go again providing quotes without your own commentary. They are useless and meaningless unless you explain the reasons you are quoting them!!!! Look, I don't really care what Buddhaghosa wrote; I am not posting to Buddhaghosa, I am posting to you. If you want to use these quotes as support for something, explain how they should be taken from your perspective. Explain what they mean and how they relate to the subject we are discussing. These are the basics I teach my students when writing research papers; didn't you learn these basics in high school or college? I could respond to some items in these quotes you provide (like the last line about the Vism. being finished in 58 chapters without any obstacle, even though he had to rewrite it three times due to the original being lost again and again) but I won't bother. Two can play at that game. 'I have no intention' to exchange quotes back in forth with you like poker chips in Reno. ********* S: I'm going to leave this thread here, James. If you wish to research further, I recommend you read any of the texts I mentioned. ********* James: Thank you for the suggestion, your majesty. Are you sure I am worthy of such texts you recommend? ******** The small paperback book by B.C.Law on Buddhaghosa is very easy to read. ******** James: Thank goodness it is easy to read. I am such a dullard after all. ******** Let me know off-list if you'd like me to help you get a copy. ********* James: Thank you for the offer. Lord knows us dullards need all the help we can get. ********* Metta, Sarah ========= Metta (still- believe it or not), James 50027 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:02pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Robert K., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > They are good passages from the Minda panha. Wisdom arises from > conditions it is true, but one of those conditions is > pakatúpanissaya-paccaya (decisive support of natural condition) and > so wisdom we have developed in the past can condition wisdom to > arise now. Accumulations (asaanuasaya )sp?) include both akusala and > kusala. They are the habits, good and bad that wax or wane depending > on many conditions. > In the passage above you quoted it says: > "'Gotama the Bodisat had gone forth from the world, O king, when his > > knowledge 4 was immature, and his wisdom was immature. And it was > > when he was bringing that immature knowledge to maturity that he > > carried out the penance.'" > > So it matures by becomeing a habit, by accumulation over this life > and many lives. > Robertk This is an interesting subject to discuss because I am not so sure of my position. Really, when I write that wisdom isn't accumulated I am following my instincts. I can't sufficiently explain why. Maybe to cut to the chase you can explain something for me: For how long is wisdom accumulated, to your knowledge? The Buddha went through several thousand lifetimes gaining merit, he even went through all of the levels of hell and all of the animal realms- did he accumulate wisdom this entire time? Was he a wise being in hell? We all have lived the same number of lifetimes as the Buddha, why haven't we all accumulated wisdom like him? At what point did our wisdom expire, if it is accumulated? Give these questions some thought and maybe find some solid evidence to support your position (and the Buddha is the top authority). I hope that we both learn a great deal from this exchange. Metta, James 50028 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:25am Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 Good Morning Dan, My posts are peppered with DIRECT RELATIONSHIPS AND APPLICATIONS to Dhamma! My posts are sooooooooooo spicey that even an Indian with their taste for curry would jump up and proclaim the complete focus I have of the dhamma! This is why I've been totally shocked at what our moderators and owners edit out of my posts i.e. "how can you do that" why would you do that?" I've got an hour after I read the pooop that I got in ALL sites and what I want to do today. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Clipping the political and skipping the philosophical (which are > indeed tempting and alluring, in a macabre way, but only just shy of > relevant in a Dhamma discussion list) I found this: > > Colette: "Sensual Pleasures are entirely based on emotional desires, > cravings." > > By all accounts, Buddha enjoyed sensual pleasures and suffered > sensual pain, but was beyond cravings and emotional desires. Enjoy > without craving or attachment. Suffer without hating or aversion. > Possible? > > Metta, > > Dan 50029 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:05am Subject: Re: Picture Yourself on a boat on a river. Beattles. ksheri3 Good Morning Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hmmmm... but I'm quite sure that > I WAS thinking about the Buddha's message that getting worked up > about politics is unseemly for one who is seeking liberation, > unseemly colette: could you point me to the sutta or sutra or ... where it's mentioned this way or that, politics. My belief is that politics are a necessary evil since anarchy would exist without rules, structures. Without atmosphere then we'd be all forced into living on LOX or Liquid Oxygen (sounds pretty alien doesn't it). You've seen your liquidity haven't you? Doesn't it slip through you hands like grains of sand i.e. a fool and his money are soon parted? ---------------------------- because, ultimately, the real bonds are craving, aversion, > and conceit -- not the particulars of the material conditions we find > ourselves in at any particular moment. colette: I will have the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha quote for you tomorrow however the gist is that ALL evil has the foundation of IGNORANCE, moha! Now to put an end to those nasty little cravings or aversions or delusions of granduer one has to get to the bottom of it and find where the thought process deviated, got onto the off ramp into the quagmires of craving, aversion, and conceit. When you see the big sign that says WELCOME TO IGNORANCE OPEN 24 HRS A DAY 365 DAYS A YR. <...> ---------------------------- > > Yeah, yeah, I know you can translate "bhikkhu" into English > as "beggar" and can even visualize a crazed, ranting panhandler when > reading about "bhikkhus" in the suttas -- it's not easy, but > certainly possible -- Just as it's possible to render "lobha" > as "love", or "delusion" as "self-esteem". And that's fine, so long > as the true meaning and intent of the Buddha's words is not too badly > mangled. colette: ah, you've seen how they play Jeopardy and the category is Double-Speak or In Other Words but they, the people in authority, will never tell a non-member of the clique the truth. -------------- > > > > > > or about pursuit of sense desires > > > > colette: OBSCURATIONS > > Hmmm.... I like that word. > > > the "Demarkation" the OBSURATION, between this person's yard and > the > > other person's yard. Thus, by conforming to the status quo, the > > beaten path, we must place the "picket fence" up which just happens > > to be an obsuration since it does indeed make it clear to you and > > every other sentient living being that the owner of this obsuration > > is a prisoner within/behind the obscuration. What was that you were > > saying about "Desires"? > > About the 'desires'? Oh, yeah... I was saying that in the sutta we > were discussing, Buddha taught that getting all lobha-ed up about > picket fences and hamburgers (or all dosa-ed up about other people's > picket fences and hamburgers) is precisely what we need liberation > from -- and I believe it! > > > David Gilmore refered to this in one of his songs: > > > > "When you come in you're in for good" "When you look out you don't > > see in"... > > -------------- > > And another song continues: "Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full!" > > > colette: how TRUE! view a CD cover for Pink Floyd and you'll find > > that they depict a couple, (see J.Geils Band the song is Love > > Stinks, "Two by two, and side by side, Love's gonna find you yes it > > is, you just can't hide") and this couple is dancing in some kind > of > > a field but there are these cables coming from the ground, the > earth, > > and these cables attach to the limbs and such of the dancers. > > Interesting isn't it? > > Interesting indeed! A little sour, but interesting. colette: sour? I hope not since it is the straight dope. Maybe to a herion addict similar to your average police officer may back away speaking of the product's purity but sour? ------------------------ > > Ya' know, the Buddha says very much the same kinds of things. Is > there a difference? > > > > > Of course there's a difference! No hint of sourness in the Buddha... > > > *************************** ****** > > colette: I'm sorry but it seems that I've left the Sutta I can use > > perfectly here at home. pardon me while I remind myself to focus on > > finding this sutta and bringing it to consciousness if not for you > in the group for myself. > > Yo, wake up, go find the sutta dealing with the misineterpretation > of > > what causes a fetter, it's in stack below the stack on the bed that > I > > labeled "already stapled" which ment I didn't have to take it this > > morning. Remember the humor it brought when I laughed at the > > relationship between what I said in 2001 Which came first the crime > > or the police officer, chicken or the egg," > > > > ****************************** > > > > > > > > Believing this and knowing it on occasion (but soon forgetting), > I > > > still sometimes get worked up about politics, or ornaments (not > so > > > much earrings or jewelry, but more mental ornaments), sense > > desires, > > > worries. Helpful? > > > > colette: by all means they're helpful since you're creating a > > foundation, as all good masons do, for your belief structure. > > ... that's fine, Colette, but this IS "DhammaStudyGroup". We like to > discuss Dhamma, and not so much meta-Dhamma. colette: dhamma applies to everything without acceptions! If it doesn't apply then it is worthless. Hopefully I'll get more time later this afternoon. toodles, colette > > > With metta and plenty of toodles to you, too, > > > Dan 50030 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Not quite. I was saying that fully developed metta to this degree of jhana, encompassing the `universal' aspects and so on was/is only for those with the right conditions in place, i.e highly developed samatha based on right understanding. James: This sounds fine to me; I agree. Obviously it takes some skill. Sarah: That's easy: no more quotes:). (Don't I usually only quote when you ask me too??) James: Only quote when I ask you to? Sometimes yes and sometimes no- but that isn't the problem. The problem is bombarding me with quotes and not explaining to me why you are quoting the material you quote. Every quote should have an explantion in your own words or it is useless. Sarah: There you go. You like to ask me to provide proof with all sorts of controversial comments, but you don't like the proof from either my experience or my texts:) LOL James: I'm sorry you feel defensive. You still don't get it. Giving me a quote without supporing explantion isn't proof of anything. If a student gave me a paper filled with quotes without his own commentary/explanation, I would give the paper back and tell him/her to rewrite it. That paper would be useless, plagarized, garbage. Why shouldn't I require the same of you? Don't I explain all of the quotes I provide with at least some commentary or explanation? Sarah: So now, show me in your texts where your meditation practice, just as you follow and understand it, is indicated in those `thousands of years of Buddhist practice'! Where does it speak about carrying on your normal, active, social daily life and then returning home, sitting in seclusion and cross-legged and radiating universal metta? James: There is a sutta in AN where the Buddha explains to 500 laypeople that they shouldn't be content with just offering food and requisites to monks, that they should develop the jhanas also from time to time. I would imagine that such development would include metta meditation. I would quote it to you but my main laptop is broken and my Nikayas are still in storage. I will quote it to you later and provide my own explanation. Sarah: There is great danger, on the otherhand, of thinking (as many do) that they are sotapannas and that therefore the texts don't really say what they do because it's inconvenient to question such status. As I quoted to you before, from the Sallekha sutta and commentary, such over-estimating of attainments is a very big obstacle. (Mike wrote some useful comments on this recently. See his p.s in #48874). James: So pompous, pompous, pompous! Sarah: I think there were many serious errors (and such over- estimation??) in Nanavira's reasonings. Many such errors have been discussed before at length. James: Where? Not here in DSG. Sarah: I think we've probably exhausted this thread too.....perhaps others may pursue it, though of course I'm always (well, a bit of over-generalising there!!) glad to read your further comments, James. James: Yeah, you can't always be glad to read my further comments. I test you and question you at every turn- I doubt that you are always glad to read that. But at least you are patient and resilient. Now, if I could just get you to be real I would have won the battle! ;-)) Sarah: Best wishes for a happy and rewarding school year. I'm sure your students will enjoy your lively and imaginative classes and expertise in discussions and debates (which I use in a complimentary sense). James: Thanks. I usually give my students a lot to think about. BTW, did you ever tell your students that they don't exist? Just curious. Metta, James 50031 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Lay people and the Vinaya christine_fo... Hello all, Elsewhere lay people have written with concerns about many monks behaving in ways that are not appropriate, not in keeping with the Vinaya, and sometimes plainly shameless and corrupt. Bhikkhu Pesala explained that a lay person needs to be wise to know how to deal with this delicate situation skilfully. He said that even the worst of monks have some merits and virtues, and all but the best of monks (the Arahants) have some faults and defects that you can find fault with if you look hard enough. Even the Arahants may incur the blame of the unwise due to their lack of cultured manners. He recommended the patient reading of the whole of The Dhamma Dîpanî. http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Ledi/Dhamma/dhamma.html 'Should Lay person's learn the Vinaya' http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Ledi/Dhamma/Vinaya/vinaya.html metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50032 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] an introduction and a question dacostacharles Hi Hal, I also read some of Buddhadasa's works including his thoughts on Buddagosa and DO. Though some of his claims about DO have no explicit suttra reference, I have found his approach very useful. In fact, it reshaped my view of DO. As far as "Buddagosa retained his Brahmanistic beliefs," well, that is based on the principle of rebirth-consciousness. Rebirth-consciousness is based on the Hindu concept (the soul or atman), and it has no explicit suttra reference either. Buddagosa uses the concept of rebirth-consciousness to explain the 2 and 3 life-times models of the Wheel of life (a view acceptable to Hindus). This means Buddagosa believes in rebirth (e.g., via a woman's womb) and Buddhadasa does not seems to. Buddhadasa only believes in the one life-time model of the Wheel of life. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hal Sent: Wednesday, 07 September, 2005 15:45 ... Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. Doesn't Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar monk? I'm not interested in evaluating Buddhagosa's attainments. However, it is hard to believe that anyone who still retained Brahmanistic beliefs would be able to offer such insightful comments, particularly in the third section of his commentary. This leads me to suspect Buddhadasa's rather bold critique of Bugghagosa as well as Buddhadasa's interpretation of dependent origination. I would be much obliged if someone could direct me to a helpful response/critique of his comments about this all important concept. Hal 50033 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas and dukkha sarahprocter... Hi Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > thank you, it is clearer, but see below. > Lokuttara cittas are not objects of clinging but they are dukkha; > arising > and falling away. .... S: Yes, no doubt about this. I should have added a 'now'. Lokuttara cittas are dukkha, but they don't appear now, so they cannot be objects of clinging or directly known now. ... See my post to Howard. But not all texts of the > Dispeller > are clear to me. .... S: Why not make a list of any points or text quotes which you find unclear to discuss and ask K.Sujin further about in India? It's an intricate topic and I'm sure I'm just touching the surface. Metta, Sarah ======= 50034 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Five Aggregates dacostacharles Hi chin kah, Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) are suttra terms. Citta and Cetasikas are Abhidhamma terms. The Buddha spoke the suttra terms, and some of his learned monks classified and extend these terms to develop the Abhidhamma (Why: some say to offer more details and further understanding). The bottom line is that Citta and Cetasikas are terms used after the Buddha's death. Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) are the terms used during the Buddha's life-time. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- ent: Monday, 22 August, 2005 09:34 Subject: [dsg] Five Aggregates Dear all, The Buddha taught that the human being is made up of five aggregates - Nama (feeling; perception; mental formations and consciousness) and Rupa (matter). i.e. 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) 2. The Aggregate of Consciousness (Vinnana) 3. The Aggregate of Perception (Sanna) 4. The Aggregate of Feeling (Vedana) 5. The Aggregate of Mental Formation (Sankhara) (2) are the cittas (3), (4) and (5) are the cetasikas (52 in all). My question is: Was there any reason for the Lord Buddha to specifically single out Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) from the group of 52 cetasikas and classify them as two of the five aggregates? Why couldn't He just define the human being as being made up of three aggregates - ie 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) 2. The Aggregate of Citta 3. The Aggregate of Cetasikas chin kah 50035 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Erik with a K! (Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References) ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, Erik, & Howard, I'm taken aback by some of your explanations Sarah! -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > --- rikpa21 wrote: > ... > S: I can imagine....you had a nice set up there.... > ..... > > > S: Reading between the lines, it sounds like you've got work and things > are going well for you:). And as Dan was saying to Colette, in the end we > can't blame the culture, politics or other 'jewellery' for our insanity or > bondage....(but you know all that!!). colette: notice I added an extra line between our posts. True on the surface as a water bug or a jesus of nazereth would when walking on the water however there are deeper meanings within! You look for "finger pointing" issues and you totally vanquish one of the most basic laws of buddhism which is acceptance, responsibility, for what each individual does. Ah, this is where buddhism applies: what YOU as the individual do and do not do! Oh, and you want me to believe that the term "conditioning" as given in Abidhammattha- Sangaha is not a term for "learned behavior" AND THAT since you were born you have not been trained, see Pavlov and his dogs in the scientific discovery of "learned behavior", as a dog or circus animal, see the plight of bears in Eastern European cultures! See Gypsies and then apply the concept and your stereotypical definition, your profiling, categorization, of a Gypse and place it into Cher's song Gypsies Tramps and Theives, then place you use of Cher into the profile and find an entirely majority portion of American society devoted to Cher and her definition of gypsies but as we have already concluded it is your definition as well making you responsible for the problem and worthy of the finger pointed at you. That is a characteristic commonly found in all high schools in the USA where the child must enter into a gang, or clique, or group, and destroy their individuality in order to adopt the definitions and requirements of the group. not directed at you specifically Sarah, as Deep Purple once said I am talking on the wind here: get ready, I can see it whelming up, the connections being made and you know, Lord of the Threshhold what I'm talking about. Oh, your three covens in Chicago will be placed into service quite well. Q. Where is Klingon the indigenous language? A. Ivy League. --------------------- > As I see it, lobha is lobha is lobha (no matter a Buddhist's, a > Christian's or anyone else's!). Same for dosa or metta or jhana cittas! > I discussed the same topic with Htoo before and I think he agreed that it > didn't make any sense (esp. from an Abhidhamma point of view) to refer to > Buddhist and non-Buddhist jhana cittas. > > So what matters (if anything) these days, Erik? colette: Maybe I'm wrong here because I've missed the gist of the conversation but I'll just throw in my pickled two scents and say that there is no difference between a buddhist and non-buddhist when a buddhist applies the teachings since the buddhist applying from internal to external must use the same application. Dung is Dung is Dung! toodles, colette 50036 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:19pm Subject: Re: an introduction and a question bardosein Hi Charles, Thanks for your comments. I have always enjoyed Buddhadasa's writing, particularly since I spent many years doing Zazen in the Yasutani tradition before taking up Vipassana around seven years ago. His idiosyncratic use of Zen concepts mixed with Theravada ones has some consequences, however. If you not have read, Peter Jackson's book on Buddhadasa, you might find it a helpul study. (See his chapters 4 and 5). The Buddhist notion of "re-birth consciousness" is not based on Hindu concepts since, it is also a key concept in the death proximate cognitive process (following "death consciousness") as listed in chapter 5 of the Abhidhammattha Sangha known as "re-birth linking consciousness". This Buddhist notion does not imply any substance, soul or individual entity. Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Hal, > > I also read some of Buddhadasa's works including his thoughts on Buddagosa > and DO. Though some of his claims about DO have no explicit suttra > reference, I have found his approach very useful. In fact, it reshaped my > view of DO. > > As far as "Buddagosa retained his Brahmanistic beliefs," well, that is based > on the principle of rebirth-consciousness. Rebirth-consciousness is based on > the Hindu concept (the soul or atman), and it has no explicit suttra > reference either. > > Buddagosa uses the concept of rebirth-consciousness to explain the 2 and 3 > life-times models of the Wheel of life (a view acceptable to Hindus). This > means Buddagosa believes in rebirth (e.g., via a woman's womb) and > Buddhadasa does not seems to. Buddhadasa only believes in the one life-time > model of the Wheel of life. > > > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hal > Sent: Wednesday, 07 September, 2005 15:45 > ... > > Last year I read the late Ven. Buddhadasa's commentary on the > Paticcasamppada in which he provides a rather strong critique of > Buddagosa's understanding as presented in his Visuddhimagga. Doesn't > Buddhadsa's criticism of Buddagosa, namely that he has retained > his "Brahmanistic" beliefs suggest that he believes Buddhagosa has > not overcome _wrong view_ and is essentially a puthujjana scholar > monk? I'm not interested in evaluating Buddhagosa's attainments. > However, it is hard to believe that anyone who still retained > Brahmanistic beliefs would be able to offer such insightful comments, > particularly in the third section of his commentary. This leads me > to suspect Buddhadasa's rather bold critique of Bugghagosa as well as > Buddhadasa's interpretation of dependent origination. I would be > much obliged if someone could direct me to a helpful > response/critique of his comments about this all important concept. > > Hal 50037 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Hi Robert, Yes, I have the full text. I will try to type out or scan the relevant page(s) and forward it to you as soon as I can. I look forward to hearing your comments. Hal . 50038 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi James > > James: Oh God, I don't want to get into the subject of metta with > > you again. > > You're the one who brought up "the heart." What is "the heart" in > Dhamma if not metta. > ********* > James: I didn't really mean metta when I wrote that the Dhammapada > appeals to the heart. The Buddha often refers to the heart as the > seat of wisdom so I don't think "heart" always means metta. Oh, OK. That's what you meant. I see "the heart" and "wisdom" as two wings, which is how it is described in Tibetan Buddhism, I think. At > least I didn't mean it that way. But, let's just go ahead and > discuss metta again. It could be fun. ;-)) > ********** No, let's drop it. Let's agree to disagree. That's often the best thing to do. We're both too busy for pointless debates. > > (How can it be if it is rooted in > > > lobha? If we want to have metta, how can it not be rooted in > > lobha. > > > Yes, I know, there can be chanda.) > > > > James: I don't know what you mean. Speak English to me and then > > maybe I can respond. > > You know full well what chanda is. (snip) > James: Sorry to have written my comment in such a nasty tone. Conditions. You've been nasty before, you'll be nasty again. You certainly are nasty in your latest posts to Sarah. I've never seen you nastier, actually. But nothing to worry about. When my unwholesome accumulations erupt I take it as a confirmation of the Buddha's teaching. There is not way that resolutions to be kind or patient will work for us. But we can see our unkind, impatient speech with right understanding. Then, ever so gradually, we can begin to uproot it. BTW, it wasn't Sarah that told amr that he didn't exist - it was me. So your question to Sarah about whether she asked her students if they existed or not should have been to me. And the answer is no, because they do not know the Buddha's teaching. Since Amr is with someone who knows the Buddha's teaching and could explain what I meant, I guess I spontaneously said that to him. It was unwise, but I personally believe it is not a bad thing to drop ultimate truths on people. I did with Naomi. She was able to understand khandas, intellectually - not that she doesn't see my Dhamma study as an escape from reality, I > didn't think much about it but I didn't mean it to be nasty. But, > really (no lie) I don't know what chanda is. I don't know what > lobha is either. I am very Pali illiterate, by choice. Wait a sec > and I will open another window and look them up.... okay, chanda > means: "zeal, desire, or wish-to-do. A cetasika, not the same as > lobha." And lobha means: "attachment or greed." > > So, if I am correct in my interpretation, you were saying that the > cultivation of metta can contain unwholesome desire or it can > possibly, but not very unlikely, contain wholesome desire. I'm not > sure about this. It seems to be a lot of guesswork and assumption. > I just look at what the Buddha taught and he recommended the > cultivation of metta- end of story. He didn't preface his teachings > with all kinds of warnings about unwholesome desires. > *************** > > > James: Thanks a lot. I will give your best wishes to Amr. He has > > gotten a new motorcycle and has gotten into three accidents so > far. > > I know you don't believe in it, but maybe you can send some metta > > his way- ask the devas to protect him. I am quite worried myself. > > I'm sorry to hear that. Have you discussed what drives him to > drive recklessly? Of course you have. > > *********** > James: Phil, he doesn't drive recklessly, as far as I can tell. You > just couldn't imagine how bad the traffic is here in Cairo! I have > never encountered anything as bad in my travels. Here is a > description from the Internet: > > "The traffic in Cairo is absolutely crazy! Traffic lights? We saw > only 2 working in a city of 17 million, but nobody was paying > attention to them. Road signs and markings? Only suggestions that > are pretty much ignored. At night, people drive with their > headlights off. They use them, together with the horn, to indicate > other drivers and pedestrians that they are coming through no matter > what. Crosswalks? Same as traffic lights and road marks. Jaywalking > is the rule!" > http://stuff.mit.edu/people/palomera/Travels/Egypt/Videos/ > *********** > > If you ask him to stand on the rooftop of the tallest building at > exactly 3 pm Tokyo time (if you wouldn't mind calculating the time > difference) and make sure that his ear is pointing towards Japan I > will shout a message full of goodwill to him. That would have a > better chance of reaching him than metta would. > > *********** > James: Okay, what day should he do this?? ;-)) Maybe I can get him > to the top of the Pyramid of Giza! ;-)) > ************ > > I can feel metta towards him, and perhaps do now - but the idea > of it flying through space to him is peculiar to me. But I know it > is a common idea, so I may be wrong. May be. Anyways, say hi and > tell him that there is a fellow in Japan who is concerned about his > well being. If that is sending him metta, I send him metta. > > ************ > James: Yes, that is sending him metta. Thank you. BTW, metta > doesn't fly through space toward people. We are all connected. > Just as one is reborn instantaneously across a great distance, > metta is sent instantaneously. > ************* > > Let's drop it at that, yeah. As you say, we don't want to get back > into going around in circles on this point. > > ************* > James: Okay, but I didn't drop it. You can drop it though if you > want. No problem. > ************* > > Phil > > ************ > Metta, > James 50039 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi James > > James: Oh God, I don't want to get into the subject of metta with > > you again. > > You're the one who brought up "the heart." What is "the heart" in > Dhamma if not metta. > ********* > James: I didn't really mean metta when I wrote that the Dhammapada > appeals to the heart. The Buddha often refers to the heart as the > seat of wisdom so I don't think "heart" always means metta. Oh, OK. I differentiate between the two, but I see what you mean. I like what I heard is taught in Tibetan Buddhism, I think. The heart wing and the wisdom wing. The bird needs them both to fly, or something like that. Recently, I have shifted to a strong emphasis on the wisdom wing. The bird could crash. But I think reflecting of the Perfections could help. Unfortunately, for the time being at least, I have come to be very stringent about brahma-viharas and believe that the way they are taught and practiced now doesn't have anything to do with detachment and tends to lead people to practice them in a way that is rooted in lobha and leads to pleasant feelings that are mistaken for something deeper. That was the case for me, so I tend to assume there are others making the same mistake. At > least I didn't mean it that way. But, let's just go ahead and > discuss metta again. It could be fun. ;-)) Well, not for the time being, if you don't mind. We'll see what happens down the road. >> > James: I don't know what you mean. Speak English to me and then > > maybe I can respond. > > You know full well what chanda is. > > ********* > James: Sorry to have written my comment in such a nasty tone. I > didn't think much about it but I didn't mean it to be nasty. That's ok. You've been nasty before, and you'll be nasty again. Your posts to Sarah that are on the board now are just about as nasty as any I've seen from you. Conditions at work. There are also conditions that are working for you to be gentle James. They will win, eventually. But it will take a long, long time. We have cried enough tears to fill an ocean during our journey through samsara. I take that to mean that there are more tears to come, many more. But I know that you and others believe there can be an ending to all that in this life. You're right of course, there *can* be. Alas, rushing towards that goal in an impatient way (not that you are necessarily, but many do, I think) will just take one further from the goal. That is my opinion. Recently, I haven't been apologizing for my bad behaviour at DSG. (Of course I do in daily life, because I am not talking to Dhamma friends "out there.") I've been saying "thanks for your understanding" - understanding, our own and that of our Dhamma friends, is the only thing that will lead us out of samsara, I firmly believe. >But, > really (no lie) I don't know what chanda is. I don't know what > lobha is either. I am very Pali illiterate, by choice. Wait a sec > and I will open another window and look them up. I find this part hard to believe. How could you have been communicating with people here for years and not know what lobha is? A bit disingeneous (sp?), I think, but never mind. okay, chanda > means: "zeal, desire, or wish-to-do. A cetasika, not the same as > lobha." And lobha means: "attachment or greed." > > So, if I am correct in my interpretation, you were saying that the > cultivation of metta can contain unwholesome desire or it can > possibly, but not very unlikely, contain wholesome desire. I'm not > sure about this. It seems to be a lot of guesswork and assumption. If I understand correctly, while lobha is of course always unwholesome, chanda can be either wholesome or unwholesome, as can energy, determination and other factors that we tend to assume are wholesome. Well, I guess we all know that energy can be unwholesome. Anyways, the point is that there is definitely good reason to question whether one's approach to Dhamma is subtly rooted in unwholesome chanda and/or lobha (I don't know how to differentiate them.) Do we study and meditate with detachment, or are we doing it out of fear of death, desire for accomplishment (to be "magnificent" as you put it once) and so on. It has to begin with a kind of detachment from results, even a shallow intellectual detachment. We disagree there, I'm sure, and that's ok. > I just look at what the Buddha taught and he recommended the > cultivation of metta- end of story. He didn't preface his teachings > with all kinds of warnings about unwholesome desires. Haven't you read any suttas about the unwholesome roots of greed, hated and delusion? I think there are hundreds of them. Do you think Dhamma study is somehow immune to them by some sort of built in defilement-buster? > James: Phil, he doesn't drive recklessly, as far as I can tell. You > just couldn't imagine how bad the traffic is here in Cairo! OK, tell him to take care anyway. I do care about him, because I care about you. (I suppose I should care about everyone no matter what, and I do on occasion - metta arises. ) Phil 50040 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi again James. The post I was writing got lost, I thought, but now I see it was actually posted. So you got two versions. I think I was feeling more irritable when I wrote the first one - interesting to see how we are different from moment to moment. More conditions. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi James > > > > James: Oh God, I don't want to get into the subject of metta with > > > you again. > > > > You're the one who brought up "the heart." What is "the heart" in > > Dhamma if not metta. > > ********* > > James: I didn't really mean metta when I wrote that the Dhammapada > > appeals to the heart. The Buddha often refers to the heart as the > > seat of wisdom so I don't think "heart" always means metta. > > Oh, OK. I differentiate between the two, but I see what you mean. I > like what I heard is taught in Tibetan Buddhism, I think. The heart > wing and the wisdom wing. The bird needs them both to fly, or > something like that. Recently, I have shifted to a strong emphasis > on the wisdom wing. The bird could crash. But I think reflecting of > the Perfections could help. Unfortunately, for the time being at > least, I have come to be very stringent about brahma-viharas and > believe that the way they are taught and practiced now doesn't have > anything to do with detachment and tends to lead people to practice > them in a way that is rooted in lobha and leads to pleasant feelings > that are mistaken for something deeper. That was the case for me, so > I tend to assume there are others making the same mistake. > > At > > least I didn't mean it that way. But, let's just go ahead and > > discuss metta again. It could be fun. ;-)) > > Well, not for the time being, if you don't mind. We'll see what > happens down the road. > > >> > James: I don't know what you mean. Speak English to me and then > > > maybe I can respond. > > > > You know full well what chanda is. > > > ********* > > James: Sorry to have written my comment in such a nasty tone. I > > didn't think much about it but I didn't mean it to be nasty. > > That's ok. You've been nasty before, and you'll be nasty again. > Your posts to Sarah that are on the board now are just about as > nasty as any I've seen from you. Conditions at work. There are also > conditions that are working for you to be gentle James. They will > win, eventually. But it will take a long, long time. We have cried > enough tears to fill an ocean during our journey through samsara. I > take that to mean that there are more tears to come, many more. But > I know that you and others believe there can be an ending to all > that in this life. You're right of course, there *can* be. Alas, > rushing towards that goal in an impatient way (not that you are > necessarily, but many do, I think) will just take one further from > the goal. That is my opinion. > > Recently, I haven't been apologizing for my bad behaviour at DSG. > (Of course I do in daily life, because I am not talking to Dhamma > friends "out there.") I've been saying "thanks for your > understanding" - understanding, our own and that of our Dhamma > friends, is the only thing that will lead us out of samsara, I > firmly believe. > > >But, > > really (no lie) I don't know what chanda is. I don't know what > > lobha is either. I am very Pali illiterate, by choice. Wait a > sec > > and I will open another window and look them up. > > I find this part hard to believe. How could you have been > communicating with people here for years and not know what lobha is? > A bit disingeneous (sp?), I think, but never mind. > > okay, chanda > > means: "zeal, desire, or wish-to-do. A cetasika, not the same as > > lobha." And lobha means: "attachment or greed." > > > > So, if I am correct in my interpretation, you were saying that the > > cultivation of metta can contain unwholesome desire or it can > > possibly, but not very unlikely, contain wholesome desire. I'm > not > > sure about this. It seems to be a lot of guesswork and assumption. > > If I understand correctly, while lobha is of course always > unwholesome, chanda can be either wholesome or unwholesome, as can > energy, determination and other factors that we tend to assume are > wholesome. Well, I guess we all know that energy can be unwholesome. > Anyways, the point is that there is definitely good reason to > question whether one's approach to Dhamma is subtly rooted in > unwholesome chanda and/or lobha (I don't know how to differentiate > them.) Do we study and meditate with detachment, or are we doing it > out of fear of death, desire for accomplishment (to be "magnificent" > as you put it once) and so on. It has to begin with a kind of > detachment from results, even a shallow intellectual detachment. We > disagree there, I'm sure, and that's ok. > > > I just look at what the Buddha taught and he recommended the > > cultivation of metta- end of story. He didn't preface his > teachings > > with all kinds of warnings about unwholesome desires. > > Haven't you read any suttas about the unwholesome roots of greed, > hated and delusion? I think there are hundreds of them. Do you think > Dhamma study is somehow immune to them by some sort of built in > defilement-buster? > > > James: Phil, he doesn't drive recklessly, as far as I can tell. > You > > just couldn't imagine how bad the traffic is here in Cairo! > > OK, tell him to take care anyway. I do care about him, because I > care about you. (I suppose I should care about everyone no matter > what, and I do on occasion - metta arises. ) > > Phil 50041 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ lbidd2 Hal: "In the preface to the English translation of his _Patthanuddesa Dipani_ Ledi Sayadaw states: "Buddhism views the world, with the exception of Nibbana and pannatti*, as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul-essence" According to the editor's comments, this view is not supported by the canonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. Considering this, and his apparent profound knowledge of the scriptures as well as the fact that he dedicated six months of each year to intensive practise, I'm curious to know how he had arrived at this unconventional view." Hi Hal, I would have to say "the editor" is in error. See Vism.VIII,note 68: 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs.,p.1;1308) even a non-entity (abhaava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is borne (dhaariiyati) and affirmed (avadhaariiyati) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying "Dhammas [means] individual essences". The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamaanataa) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhaava); it is with essence (saha bhaavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhaava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamaanaruupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called 'dhammas (bearers)" because they bear (dhaara.na) their own individual essences (sabhaava), and they are called "individual essences" in the sense already explained' (Pm. 282; cf. Ch. VII, n.1). Larry: This note from the maha tika to Vism. goes on to explain that it is talking about such 'dhammas without individual essence' as space; however, in general, the principle is established that reality is ultimately characterized by impermanence. A concept such as a self or any other concept is not included in the khandhas, is therefore not real, and is therefore not impermanent. As far as I know, no one, ancient or modern, has worked out an explicit philosophy of concept and reality but one could make a pretty good case that this distinction is implicit in sutta, abhidhamma, and commentary. Should someone work this out philosophically it would make an interesting contrast to madhyamika and cittamatra philosophies. A.K. Warder wrote a short history of the concept and reality distinction in Theravada for a scholarly journal but as I recall it didn't add much to my understanding in a philosophical way. An interesting question one might ask is, is a group of realities a concept or a reality? Realities arise in groups, so groups are real. But realities are perceived only one at a time, so the perception of a group is the perception of a concept. This seems like a reasonable answer but can panna verify that realities arise in groups? If not, does it make a difference? "No control" is often proven by interdependence of realities within a group. Larry 50042 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi James & RobertK, > Maybe to cut to the chase you can explain something for me: For how > long is wisdom accumulated, to your knowledge? The Buddha went > through several thousand lifetimes gaining merit, he even went > through all of the levels of hell and all of the animal realms- did > he accumulate wisdom this entire time? Was he a wise being in > hell? We all have lived the same number of lifetimes as the Buddha, > why haven't we all accumulated wisdom like him? At what point did > our wisdom expire, if it is accumulated? > > Give these questions some thought and maybe find some solid evidence > to support your position (and the Buddha is the top authority). I > hope that we both learn a great deal from this exchange. I am interested in this topic too and the questions that James raised. Some solid evidences from the suttas would be good. I have always thought the Buddha-to-be accumulated merit and not supramundane wisdom while he was perfecting the paramis. Likewise for major disciples such as Sariputta, Ananda, etc. So I think if you accumulate much merit with the aim of understanding the penetrative Dhamma in a future life, that is quite possible. But nobody knows the exact working out of kamma. Regards, Swee Boon 50043 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:13pm Subject: A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth upasaka_howard Hi all - It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no control." So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? ;-)) My answer: There must be a middle way not only between sensual excess and self-torture, not only between eternalism and annihilationism, and not only between substantialism and nihilism, but also, for worldlings and even lesser ariyans, a middle way between sammuti-sacca and paramattha-sacca. A worldling who is one-sidely inclined to sammuti is far from wisdom, and a worldling who is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha is far from compassion - and not so filled with wisdom either ;-). On the other hand, an arahant, and especially a buddha, is filled with a wisdom so supreme that mahakaruna is its natural expression. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50044 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:32pm Subject: Re: Accumulation kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > I almost agree everything. Here only a few points to discuss. > Hi Htoo, It occurs to me that you can agree with what I say, and then agree with someone who says the complete opposite. But I shouldn't be ungrateful :-) ------------------------------- Htoo: > To be exact 'When dhammas are known they are known by citta - not directly by panna, who is an assistant to citta. -------------------------------- DSG discussed this back in June when you were away. Please read some of the messages, e.g., Sarah's 46575, and tell us what you think. -------------- H: > It is difficult, very difficult because Bodhisattas have to search for 20 asancheyyas and 100,000 kappas in minimum or 32 asancheyyas and 100,00 kappas in maximum. It seems not difficult because The Buddha already taught Dhammas. -------------- I'm not sure what you mean when you say it "seems" not difficult. I suspect you mean it "is" not difficult. That might explain why you sometimes describe satipatthana as if it were easy. For example, in message 50007 you write: "Material phenomena are like_ initial entering of air, sustained entering of the air, raising of the chest, expansion of the chest, expansion of arms, rising of the abdomen and then initiation of falling of the abdomen, falling back of chest, moving out of air through the nostrils etc etc. These are material phenomena. These are to be noted as long as the practitioner remembers to do so. As soon as he or she forgets then there is no sati or mindfulness. As soon as remember to note these phenomena as they are then there is sati of unforgetfulness or mindfulness." --------------------------------------- Htoo: >My thoughts are that we should not judge on Dhamma whether it is difficult or easy or anything but to study diligently and persistently until we have learnt Dhamma through realization. --------------------------------------- I don't see any problem in knowing that the Dhamma is difficult to grasp. After all, there are many textual references to that effect. (I haven't seen any textual references that say the Dhamma is easy.) -------------------------------- Htoo: > We have to see things from many different views, that is from above, from below, from right side, from left side, from the front, from the back and from any other possible angles and this would make a complete understanding. ------------------------------- In my opinion, any view that sees satipatthana as easy is simply incorrect. Ken H 50045 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth lbidd2 Howard: "It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no control." So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? ;-))" Hi Howard, I agree with your basic thesis, moderation in all things, but remorse is actually a cetasika, an ultimate reality. There is no me and no you but pain is real and it was conditioned by this body of accumulations and tendencies. Technically speaking, remorse can't arise with self view. Larry 50046 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultim... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/12/05 11:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, I agree with your basic thesis, moderation in all things, but remorse is actually a cetasika, an ultimate reality. There is no me and no you but pain is real and it was conditioned by this body of accumulations and tendencies. Technically speaking, remorse can't arise with self view. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Another perspective, Larry: It's only one with self-view, or at least *sense* of self, who has the *need* for remorse! ;-) ---------------------------------------- Larry =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50047 From: "seisen_au" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas seisen_au Hi Sarah and All, Some comments below. ---- S:To add a little more on this from Sammohavinodanii, (PTS, Class. Of Aggregates, 132f): " `As to the distinction': [that is] as to the distinction between `aggregates' (khandha) and `aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (upaadaanakkhandha). But what is the distinction between them? `Aggregates' in the first place is said without distinction; but `aggregates [as objects] of clinging' [is said] distinguishing those which are subject to cankers and are to be clung to (saasava-upaadaaniiya-bhaavena), according as it is said...." (quote from Siii47 follows) ..... St: Yes. Aggregates (as objects) of clinging, being all aggregates that fall within the domain of asavaa and clinging. Aggregates that are capable of being objects of the asavaa and clinging. > Page 580 of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (U Kyaw Khine translation) has: > > What are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m): There > are meritorious, demeritorious and neither-meritorious-nor- > demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, the fine material > sphere and the Non-material sphere which are the aggregate of > corporeality, feeling, perception and the aggregate of consciousness. > These are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas .... S: Right, " think we can stress, `which are the objects of aasavas' when clung to. ……… St: My understanding is `which are the objects of asavaa' because they are capable of being clung to. ---- S.If they are not the objects or domain of clinging, they are not upaadaanakkhandha, surely? …. St: I would think that all mundane aggregates are within the domain of clinging. The only dhammas that are not within the domain of clinging are lokuttara dhammas. Dhammasangani p574 What are the dhammaa that are mundane? There are objects of asavas which are meritorious, demeritious and neither-meritorious-nor-demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, the fine material sphere and the non-material sphere which are the aggregate of corporeality…p…the aggregate of consciousness. St: There seems to be no category for mundane dhammaa that are not sasavaa. If there were you would expect them to be listed under the `dhammaa that are not objects of clinging or asavaa' but they aren't, only lokuttara dhammaa are. --- S:For example, the khanhdas of the arahant can still be the object of others' clinging – they are only upaadaanakkhandha, dhammas which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m) when clung to. …… St:Again I think the mundane khandhas of the arahant are within the domain of clinging and are capable of being clung to, whether they are being clung to or not. Dispeller p.34 Now while there is feeling and so on, both free from cankers and subject to cankers, not so materiality. St: It seems that all rupaa are saasava (subject to cankers) whether they are being clung to or not. --- >Sammohavinodanii, 134: >"Aggregates which are the domain (gocara) of clinging are the >aggregates >[as objects] of clinging'. ...... St:Yes. >It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye- > base > > whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. > > I'm not sure about this. Dhammasangani p.629 states that the only > dhammaa that are not objects of clinging are the supramundane paths, > fruits and the unconditioned element. .... S: I don't read this to mean that all other dhammaa are always objects of clinging. St: All other dhammaa are always capable of being clung to, therefore are all upadanakhandhaa >From the commentary note which B.Bodhi quotes on p.1059 of SN: >"Spk:...'With taints (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for >the >taints by way of object; so too `that can be clung to (upaadaaniya) >means >what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its >object]. >Among the aggregates subject to clinging, stated by way of the >practice of >insight, the form aggregate is sense sphere, the others pertain to >the >three planes (i.e, excluding only the supramundane.)" .... S: As I suggested, unless the dhamma is the object of clinging, it is not upadana khandha and cannot be understood in the ultimate sense as dukkha. Hence it would appear that rupas can only be understood as upadana khandha when there is clinging to them (i.e in the sense sphere). St: I would think that in an ultimate sense, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha, as they are oppressed by rise and fall(sankhara dukkha). Would you say that all khandhaa that are not clung to, or attended to by asavas at the moment of arising are anaasavaa anupaadaaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging)? --- S:In summary, as I wrote last time, I understand that all khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment. .. St: My understanding at this time is that all mundane aggregates are subject to, and within the domain of clinging and the asavaa, whether they are clung to or not. Thanks Sarah for the opportunity to discuss these issues. Steve 50048 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:36pm Subject: Re: A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------------- H: > Hi all - It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no control." -------------------- That can be said with regard to ultimate reality, but it cannot be said with regard to conventional reality. --------------------------------- H: > So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? ;-)) ---------------------------------- That "logic" could appeal only to someone who is confused between ultimate and conventional realty. -------------------------------------------- H: > My answer: There must be a middle way not only between sensual excess and self-torture, not only between eternalism and annihilationism, and not only between substantialism and nihilism, but also, for worldlings and even lesser ariyans, a middle way between sammuti-sacca and paramattha-sacca. ---------------------------------------------- Sorry to digress, but you are presuming the Buddha's Middle Way is between substantialism and nihilism. But that is not the Theravada position, is it? According to the texts, dhammas have sabhava (their own substance). ------------------------ H: > A worldling who is one-sidely inclined to sammuti is far from wisdom, and a worldling who is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha is far from compassion - and not so filled with wisdom either ;-). ----------------------- This is true only if, by "worldling," you are referring to a person who confuses ultimate reality with conventional reality. But worldlings don't always do that - at least, not at the intellectual level. In fact, I can't imagine that anyone would seriously say, "It's all just conditions - there is no control - therefore I don't have to apologise when I do something hurtful." I'm sure there is no real danger of that happening. The knowledge, "There are only dhammas," has no appeal to hurtful, unapologetic people. It appeals only to those who have both wisdom and morality. That is to say, it appeals to people who have a genuine appreciation of the benefits of kusala dhammas and the dangers of akusala dhammas. ---------------------------- H: > On the other hand, an arahant, and especially a buddha, is filled with a wisdom so supreme that mahakaruna is its natural expression. -------------------------- And, on the smaller scale, a worldling who is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha has a degree of wisdom that makes karuna more likely than it would otherwise have been. Ken H 50049 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma Hi there... The path leading to the ceasation of suffering is in fact the 8 Fold Path or the 4th Noble Truth. It is the only path for all of us now as none of us take the vehicle of the silence Buddha. The 8 Folds Path always begins with: 1. Right View 2. Right Thoughts 3. Right Speech 4. Right Action 5. Right Livelihood 6. Right Efford 7. Right Mindfulness 8. Right Concentration. When we talk about meditation, it is usually refered during the stage of Right Mindfulness and later leading to Right Concentration. To develop mindfulness, one must practice the 4 Station of Mindfulness: 1. Kayanupassana (Awareness of Body) 2. Vedanupassana (Awareness of Feeling) 3. Cittanupassana (Awareness of Conscious) 4. Dhammanupassana (Awareness of Mental Objects) I believe you touch a lot on Kayanupassana and perhaps a little on Dhammanupassana. In fact Satipatthaana or Vipassana uses Momentary Concentration which basically observe any object arises thru the 6 doors. And all the 4 Station of Mindfulness cover all those at every moment or any posture. I would like to hi-lite that it is best to practice meditation with a teacher as many things may arises and we do need to consult someone if doubts do come up... Hope this helps Metta mr39515 --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > After some basic dhamma have been learnt, it is > better to move to > follow the Path that leads to cessation of > suffering. That path is > the only Path and there is no other substitue for > that path. It is > satipatthaana or vipassanaa. > > The practitioner can follow the practice flexibly > and in a away that > help him follow the Path. In the whole path there > are necessary > things. In short there need 'good morality' 'good > concentration' and > along with these 'good penetration' will help seeing > cessation of > suffering. <....> 50050 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 0:17am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 272- Wrong View/di.t.thi (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] In the Brahma-jåla-sutta (“The All-Embracing Net of Views”1, The Dialogues of the Buddha I, no. 1) sixty-two kinds of wrong view are mentioned. Of these there are eighteen speculative theories concerning the past, and forty-four concerning the future. There are speculative theories about the world being finite or infinite, about the origin of the “soul” or the world. There are speculations about good and evil and about nibbåna. People of all times have been inclined to speculative theories and also today we can see that such views still persist. When we speculate about past lives and future lives we may cling to a “self” who “travels” from one life to another. We are so used to thinking in terms of self. As regards annihilationism, those who believe that there is a soul or self who will be annihilated after death do not realize that the dying-consciousness which falls away is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life so long as there are conditions for rebirth. Annihilationism is different from the wisdom which sees the impermanence, the arising and falling away, of nåma and rúpa. For the arahat there are no conditions for rebirth, his dying-consciousness is not succeeded by rebirthconsciousness. This is not annihilation, it is freedom from the cycle of birth and death. The arahat has cultivated the right conditions for the attainment to this freedom. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50051 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 269- Wrong View/di.t.thi (e) sarahprocter... Dear Boon Huat, Your recent message to Htoo reminded me that I had also meant to welcome you here. --- Ng Boon Huat wrote: > Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma... > > Yeap... I just happen to find this site and when I > click on it... my mail box recently become fill with > mails... but this topic seem to have interest in > me.... hahaha .... You've already been discussing the topic of your post with Nina and Htoo and so I'm happy to just read all the comments:). I'm glad you found DSG and you obviously have plenty of keen interest and knowledge of the Tipitaka to share with us. I look forward to more. If you find your mail box is too full, you may like to consider: a) setting DSG mail to come in digest form (i.e one long mail only) b) setting mail to 'no mail' and reading it at the website c) setting up another account, such as a yahoo or google account, just for DSG mail d) setting up a filter in your mailbox to separate DSG mail from other personal or other list mail I don't need to refer you to any dictionaries or basics because you have extensive knowledge of terminology which you're kindly sharing with us. You may like to look at saved posts from the archives under particular topics in 'Useful Posts' in the files section from time to time. I'm interested to know where you live and anything else you care to share about your study and interest in the Buddha's teachings. As you probably know, Jon and I live in Hong Kong where Ng is of course a common surname.... Metta, Sarah p.s Please remember to trim your posts to DSG - ask Jon or I off-list if you have any questions about this. ============================= 50052 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] sarahprocter... Hi Hal, --- Hal wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > After checking out your suggested links in the UP index, I ordered a > copy of Law's book from Pilgrim's books on-line. I almost bought a > copy this summer when I was in Katmandu, but didn't as I like to > travel light. I'm looking forward to reading it. ... S: Thanks for mentioning this source. Interesting that you nearly bought a copy in Katmandu. Hope all's peaceful there now. Another book which I think you'd find interesting/helpful is Malalasekera's 'Pali Literature of Ceylon'. It has a good chapter of Buddhaghosa, his successors, the writing down of the early commentaries and so on. I quoted quite a lot from it in various threads on the origins of the commentaries and so on. My copy is an old 2nd hand one I've had for a long time, but I recently purchased an inexpensive paperback copy from BPS to give to Nina. Also interested to hear that you live and work in Seoul. Have you learnt Korean to add to your other languages? I find it the most difficult Asian language to pick up even the most basic of basics from my students. Let us know if you visit Hong Kong anytime. Good to read your other threads and thoughtful comments. Metta, Sarah ========= 50053 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Origin, Ceasing, Satisfaction, Danger & Escape ... sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > You asked about our Abhidhamma activities in Holland. There is a > group, from visitors of the (Thai)Buddhavihara in Amsterdam and > vipassana-meditators from different cities (you know: sitting on a > cushion, Mahasi-method) who had a retreat this summer with the > Burmese monk U Nandamala. The next month we have regular evening > meetings in which we studie chapters of the Sangaha and of > Nina's "Abhidhamma in daily life" We are very lucky that Nina has (25 > years ago) translated a big part of her book in dutch and send me all > her dutch papers so that I can distribute them now! A friend of me is > translating the Abhidhammata Sangaha in dutch: a great job that will > take some months. ... S: Thanks for sharing all this. Please keep us updated on your activities. I'm glad that you can make good use of Nina's Dutch papers and translation work. I remember another friend translated ADL into German a long time ago too (Nina will give you the details if that helps with the untranslated part of the book, I'm sure). It's excellent to hear tha your friend is translating Abhid. Sangaha into Dutch too. It must be a big job. Please share some of the questions or topics that arise from your group's regular study of these texts. It's most inspiring to hear about your developing keen interest in the Abhidhamma, Joop. Really, I don't see or find any conflict at all with the fine social qualities you often refer to or the soteriological approach to the teachings. I think that any such conflict merely shows there is much more for us to consider and understand as KenH recently indicated in a post. A real understanding of dhammas will lead to greater compassion and other wholesome qualities. Thanks for all your feedback on other threads too. Again, I think you did a good job in your paper on the Abhidhamma (link not handy now). Metta, Sarah ======== 50054 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Hi Robert, I don't know how helpful this will be, but here is a copy of the relevant text, taken from the _translator's preface_. For general interest I will quote the entire paragraph. As you can see, I was quite mistaken to say that this is what Ven. Ledi Sayadaw said; these are the words of the translator. On the otherhand the editor tells us that this view is held by both Ven. Ledi Sayadaw and Ven. Sayadaw Nyana Mahathera the translator. The following text is taken from pp. iii-iv of the Wheel Publication No. 331/333. Please forgive my poor typing skills. ------------------------------------------------- Translator's Preface to the First Edition "Buddhism views the world, with the exception fo Nibbana and _pannatti_* as impermanent, liable to suffering, and without soul- essence. So Buddhist philosophy, to elaborate the impermanency as applied to the Law of Perpetual Change, has from the outset dissolved all things , all phenomena both mental and physical, into a continuous succession of happenings, of states of mind and matter, under the Fivefold Law of Cosmic Order (_niyama_). The happenings are determined and determining, both as to their constituent states and as to other happenings, in a variety of ways, which Buddhist philosophy expresses by the term _paccaya_ or "relations". One complex happening of mental and material states, with its three phases of time--genesis or birth, cessation or death, and a static interval in between--is followed by another happening, wherein there is always a causal series of relations. Nothing is casual and fortuitous. When one happening by its arising, persisting, cessation, priority, and posteriority, is determined by and determining another happening by means of producing (_janaka_) supporting (_upatthambhaka_), and maintaining (_anupalana_), the former is called the relating thing (_paccayadhamma_), the latter the related thing (_paccayuppannadhamma_), and the determination or the influence or the specific function is called the correlativity (_paccayasatti_). As the various kinds of influence are apparently known, the relations are classified into the following twenty-four kinds:...." ___________________________________________ (Editor's comment at the bottom of p. iii) *_Pannatti_ means concept or idea. The Venerable Author's and the Translator's view that concepts are not subject to impermanence is not supported by the cannonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. (Editor) -------------------------------------------------------------------- 50055 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Larry, Thanks so much for your helpful comments on the text taken from the _translator's introduction_. This is very interesting stuff. I'm going to be digesting it for awhile. I'm particularly intrigued by your question concerning groups. For your interest, I quoted the entire first paragraph in my post that I just sent to Robert. As I pointed out there, these are the words of the translator, Sayadaw U Nyana, not the most Venerable Ledi Sayadaw. Even so, as the editor informs us, this view is held by both Sayadaws. Hal 50056 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Hi Dan, Thanks for your comments. D:Paññati are not dhamma and do not *exist*. One example: it cannot be said that the "Self" is characterized by anatta, anicca, and dukkha because there is no such thing as a "Self". Ditto for all concepts. ----------------------------------- H: However, aren't the three universals characteristics themselves are pannati? Can we say that these do not exist? A universal characteristic is a concept, and because ti-lakkhana are conditions found in all universes, in all periods of time, aren't they _pannatti_ in the very sense that the Venerable Sayadaws hold? (I'm also thinking about Larry's question concerning "groups", mentioned in his reply to his post). ------------------------------------- D:I don't know for sure how Ledi Sayadaw describes this, but I do recall reading a lengthy essay of his (in Journal of Pali Text Society from the '20s if I recall), in which he discusses this issue. I'll look it up when time permits. ------------------------------------- H: I look forward to hearing more later, if and when you have the time. ------------------------------------- D: Didn't U Narada also mention this (perhaps in his Guide to Conditional Relations, vol. 1, introduction)? I don't have my texts with me now... ------------------------------------ H: Thanks for the reference. Just another book among many I'm going to need to study here. I'm still slowly working my way through Nina's introductory text. Metta, Hal 50057 From: nina Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 191, and Tiika, Part II. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 191, Part II. N: From the first moment of our life kamma produced a decad with the ruupa which is sex, femininity and masculinity, we are born as a female or a male. Also in the course of life kamma continues to produce the ruupas of femininity or masculinity. The Tiika explains that there can be a reversal of sex in the course of life but adds that this does not always occur. People at that time may have wondered whether this is due to a kamma different from that which produced sex at the first moment of life. The Tiika explains the reason for a reversal of sex. ------- Tiika: However, when there comes to be reversal of sex, then the male sex disappears owing to powerful unprofitable kamma, and the female sex appears owing to weak profitable kamma; and the female sex disappears owing to weak unprofitable kamma, while the male sex appears owing to powerful profitable kamma (DhsA.321). So there is in fact dissimilarity in what is originated by kamma and consequent dissimilarity in what is past, etc., in accordance with the continuity of these as well. But it is not included because it does not happen always' Pm497). --------- The Expositor (p. 421) refers to a text in the Vinaya about a reversal of sex during life: We read in the Expositor about the ruupas that are the femininity faculty and the masculinity faculty: Birth as a woman is the result of kusala kamma that is weaker than birth as a man. -------- ------- Text Vis. 191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause (hetu) and condition (paccaya) have elapsed is 'past'. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is 'present'. ------- N: The Tiika explains hetu as arousing, producing. The text refers to kamma as past root-condition. Condition or paccaya is viewed here under the aspect of consolidating. As to the expression: , here, cause refers to kamma as past root-condition. It has produced ruupa. The condition that is unfinished refers to the condition that consolidates and is still operating. Pe Maung Tin translates: -------- Vis.:That which has not attained to either function is 'future'. ------- N: The future has not come, what is future will become present. ---------- Vis.: Or alternatively, the moment of the function is 'present'. And here only the explanations beginning with the 'moment' are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense. -------- N: The Pali has: the moment of its own function: sakicca. The Tiika explains that this refers to ruupa and aruupa, naama. It gives as an example that phassa, contact, has the function of touching. It contacts the object so that the citta it accompanies can experience that object. The moment it performs its own function is present. The Tiika states that the moment it performs its own function refers to time (kala). Pe Maung Tin: <...states [dhammas] may be past, present,or future. But such distinctions, in the case of moment and its function, are due, not to the states, but to the moment itself. Or, at the moment of performing its own function is present matter. Previous to that is future matter, subsequent to that is past matter.> -------- Text Vis. (translated by Nyanamoli): At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. ------- N: As we have seen, the time when the three moments of arising, presence and cessation of ruupa have not been reached, is future. It has not come yet. After they have been reached these three moments, ruupa is past. --------- Conclusion: Kamma is volition, cetanaa. There is volition accompanying each citta and this conditions citta and cetasikas by way of conascent condition. It coordinates the functions of the accompanying dhammas. Volition accompanying kusala citta and akusala citta has a double task: it coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas and it Œwills¹ kusala or akusala. When it has the intensity of motivating a deed through body, speech or mind it is capable of producing a result later on. At the present moment we may perform a wholesome deed through body, speech or mind, and such moments fall away, they become past. Each good or bad deed we perform now will become past and when they have fallen away they are capable of producing a result. Kamma that has fallen away is accumulated from moment to moment and when the conditions are right it can produce its result accordingly, just as a seed arouses a sprout. Kamma that has fallen away and produces its result is kamma, operating from a different time (naanakha.nika kamma) or asynchronous kamma. Moreover, kamma consolidates the ruupas that originate from citta, nutrition and temperature, like the earth that consolidates the sprout. But all these ruupas arise and fall away, they are past, present or future. Kamma is not a permanent entity. As we read in the Visuddhimagga (XIX, 20): ***** Nina. 50058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas, dukkha nilovg Hi Howard, I am glad you insist, I hope you will keep on insisting, it is an important point. The main point is the distinction between dukkha in conventional sense and dukkha in the ultimate sense. As Swee Boon wrote : would say anyone who has not penetrated to this dukkha has not fully > understood dukkha in its naked form.> op 12-09-2005 17:00 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > In a message dated 9/12/05 10:47:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ======================= > But what, in that case, does it MEAN to be dukkha? It's insufficient to > just *use* the word. And it's inadequate to say that the impermanence makes it > dukkha. In what WAY does the impermanence make it dukkha? To say this is hard > to understand clarifies nothing for me. A word such, 'dukkha' being the one in > question, must have meaning. -------- N: I find dukkha in conventional sense also important, and I understand that paramattha dhammas do not appeal to you. They may seem abstract notions which are not immediately understood. However, when we read K.S. IV, we can learn that these paramattha dhammas are actually seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc. First Fifty, sutta 1: < The Exalted one thus spoke:-The eye, monks, is impermanent. What is impermanent , that is dukkha. What is dukkha, that is void of the self...> We have here the three general characteristics, and these are characteristics of paramattha dhammas. But they cannot be understood immediately. They are deeper and more subtle than any subjective notions such as distress. B.B. translation of sutta 8: <...Bhikkhus,. the eye is suffering, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards the eye of the past; he does not seek delight in the eye of the future; and he is practising for revulsion towards the eye of the present, for its fading away and cessation.> It needs the right practice to have understanding of the three characteristics, including dukkha. Without understanding of nama and rupa, impossible to grasp what the three characteristics are, or to grasp the meaning of the four noble Truths, or of D.O. This may seem hard to swallow, I understand. We live our daily life with conventional realities. However, if we see the benefit of the eradication of defilements, understanding of paramattha dhammas has to be developed. I do not speak now about liberation from samsara, because this is too far off, at least to me. But I begin to see the value of having less defilements, that is to say, at the moment of kusala citta. It is momentary. We should not underestimate the three rounds of understanding the Noble Truths. First we should have firm understanding of what the right Path is, and have right understanding of nama and rupa stemming from listening. That is sacca ñaa.na. Then kicca ñaa.na, the practice, and this will result in kata ñaa.na, the realization of the truth. I think we should not forget that aniccaa, dukkha and anattaa are characteristics *of* paramattha dhammas. -------- H: I say that I accept tanha as the primary > condition for dukkha, and I reject any Abhidhammic or commentarial position to > the > contrary. This principle, the second noble truth, is one of the most basic > principles set forth by the Buddha. ----- N: yes, this is the second noble Truth. Clinging to rebirth causes the arising again of nama and rupa at rebirth, and this is dukkha. We can see this by way of paramattha dhammas: arising of nama and rupa. Then we shall gain a deeper understanding of D.O. There is no specific Abhidhammic or commentarial position. See my quoted suttas. It is very good you bring up all these points. Nina. 50059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa nilovg Dear Ng Boon Huat, op 13-09-2005 08:33 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > In fact Satipatthaana or Vipassana uses Momentary > Concentration which basically observe any object > arises thru the 6 doors. And all the 4 Station of > Mindfulness cover all those at every moment or any > posture. ------- N: Well said, I heartily agree. -------- B: I would like to hi-lite that it is best to practice > meditation with a teacher as many things may arises > and we do need to consult someone if doubts do come > up... -------- N: This is a more difficult matter. We should find out who is the right friend in Dhamma. Not merely follow persons. It is the Dhamma that matters. Any person who speaks the right Dhamma is a friend. So, we should study the Tipitaka and consider what we read. The Tipitaka is our guide. Nina. 50060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth nilovg Hi Howard, I am glad you write about the balance between sammutti and paramattha. We can apply it also to dukkha. Nina. op 13-09-2005 03:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no control." So, > when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? ;-)) > My answer: There must be a middle way not only between sensual excess and > self-torture, not only between eternalism and annihilationism, and not only > between substantialism and nihilism, but also, for worldlings and even lesser > ariyans, a middle way between sammuti-sacca and paramattha-sacca. A worldling > who is one-sidely inclined to sammuti is far from wisdom, and a worldling who > is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha is far from compassion - and not so > filled with wisdom either ;-). On the other hand, an arahant, and especially a > buddha, is filled with a wisdom so supreme that mahakaruna is its natural > expression. 50061 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 541 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 path-factors or 8 magganga, which is part of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma or companions of enlightenment. They are 1. samma-ditthi or 'path-factor of right view' (pannaa) 2. samma-sankappa or 'path-factor of right thinking' (vitakka) 3. samma-vaacaa or 'P-F of right speech'(vaciducarita viratii) 4. samma-kammanta or 'P-F of right action'(kayaducrita virati) 5. samma-aajiiva or 'P-F of right livelihood(dujiva viratii) 6. samma-vaayaama or 'P-F of right effort (viiriya) 7. samma-sati or 'P-F of right mindfulness (sati) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'P-F of right concentration' (ekaggataa) 8. samma-samaadhi or 'path-factor of concentration' Dhamma-wise ekaggataa cetasika always arises with each and every consciousness. That is at any given moment there always is an ekaggataa cetasika. This cetasika is referred to as one-pointedness. Because it fixes at an object and maintains stability or fixity or one-pointedness. But when successive moments of consciousness are checked these ekaggataa may or may not be at a single object as mind may be moving to many different objects in a blink of eyes. Akusala dhamma or unprofitable things also have concentration. Example; acrobatics do have a good concentration. But it is not right concentration. The Buddha said_ 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi saviitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pathama.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, vitakka vicaaraanam vupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso eko dibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti sukha.m dutiya.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano, sukhanca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti, ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti ''upekkhako satimaa sukha vihaarii''ti, tatiya jaana.m upasampajja viharati, sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassa domanssaana.m atthangamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi catuttha.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-samaadhi.' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 50062 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I don't know how helpful this will be, but here is a copy of the > relevant text, taken from the _translator's preface_. For general > interest I will quote the entire paragraph. As you can see, I was quite > ___________________________________________ > (Editor's comment at the bottom of p. iii) > > *_Pannatti_ means concept or idea. The Venerable Author's and the > Translator's view that concepts are not subject to impermanence is not > supported by the cannonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. > (Editor) > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Hal, Thanks for this. In fact Ledi sayadaw is correct and his assertion is supported in detail by the ancient commentaries. I'll try to find some references tonight. Do you happen to have the editors name? Robertk 50063 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:54am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ bardosein Robertk, No unfortuntately, there is no name given, just The Editor (BPS). My edition of this short treatise, _The Buddhist Philosophy of Relations_, was published in 1986, Kandy, Sri Lanka. (The Wheel Publication No. 331/333). Hal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > I don't know how helpful this will be, but here is a copy of the > > relevant text, taken from the _translator's preface_. For general > > interest I will quote the entire paragraph. As you can see, I was > quite > ___________________________________________ > > (Editor's comment at the bottom of p. iii) > > > > *_Pannatti_ means concept or idea. The Venerable Author's and the > > Translator's view that concepts are not subject to impermanence is > not > > supported by the cannonical texts nor by the ancient commentaries. > > (Editor) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > > Dear Hal, > Thanks for this. In fact Ledi sayadaw is correct and his assertion > is supported in detail by the ancient commentaries. I'll try to find > some references tonight. Do you happen to have the editors name? > Robertk 50064 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: Accumulation htootintnaing Dear Ken H, Thanks for your reply. I thought that the discussion was closed. Please see below for further discussion. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > I almost agree everything. Here only a few points to discuss. Ken H: Hi Htoo, It occurs to me that you can agree with what I say, and then agree with someone who says the complete opposite. But I shouldn't be ungrateful :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it is just a matter of angular difference or difference of reference point. When I agreed with what you said it is in the realm of understood points. When I agreed with someone who says the complete opposite that means I agree on the fact by viewing from another reference. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > To be exact 'When dhammas are known they are known by citta - not directly by panna, who is an assistant to citta. -------------------------------- Ken H: DSG discussed this back in June when you were away. Please read some of the messages, e.g., Sarah's 46575, and tell us what you think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I might do at some time. And I would respond in due course. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H: > It is difficult, very difficult because Bodhisattas have to > search for 20 asancheyyas and 100,000 kappas in minimum or 32 > asancheyyas and 100,00 kappas in maximum. > > It seems not difficult because The Buddha already taught Dhammas. -------------- Ken H: I'm not sure what you mean when you say it "seems" not difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because The Buddha already taught in the way that learners would understand. I did not say easy. And you might notice that I used 'seems'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: I suspect you mean it "is" not difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: That might explain why you sometimes describe satipatthana as if it were easy. For example, in message 50007 you write: "Material phenomena are like_ initial entering of air, sustained entering of the air, raising of the chest, expansion of the chest, expansion of arms, rising of the abdomen and then initiation of falling of the abdomen, falling back of chest, moving out of air through the nostrils etc etc. These are material phenomena. These are to be noted as long as the practitioner remembers to do so. As soon as he or she forgets then there is no sati or mindfulness. As soon as remember to note these phenomena as they are then there is sati of unforgetfulness or mindfulness." --------------------------------------- Htoo: >My thoughts are that we should not judge on Dhamma whether it > is difficult or easy or anything but to study diligently and > persistently until we have learnt Dhamma through realization. --------------------------------------- Ken H: I don't see any problem in knowing that the Dhamma is difficult to grasp. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For you it might be OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: After all, there are many textual references to that effect. (I haven't seen any textual references that say the Dhamma is easy.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because it *is* not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > We have to see things from many different views, that is from > above, from below, from right side, from left side, from the front, > from the back and from any other possible angles and this would make > a complete understanding. ------------------------------- Ken H: In my opinion, any view that sees satipatthana as easy is simply incorrect. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If it was easy it might not occur in long discourses. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50065 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin.(Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 htootintnaing Dear Sukin, Good discussions. I think this post might be second-final or final I we agree on points in most. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, Your response was encouraging, thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > May I ask you a question? > Is it suitable to build a vipassana retreat centre on a busy road, > and where neighbouring buildings are discos and brothels with > audible > sexy voice and exploding noise? >You might be right to say 'it is wrong to choose a time and a place > > to better developing of satipatthaana'. But please answer my question. Sukinder: Since you know that I don't believe in retreats, let me try to answer indirectly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I can confirm that 'you don't believe in retreats'. This might also means 'any retreat'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When I first joined DSG, I used to complain to Ivan (Matt R.) about the noise level in my workplace and how this was interfering with dhamma study. He tried to tell me that it made no difference and it took me quite a long time to appreciate this point. It is only one's akusala which is the real problem and wrong understanding makes it even more so. Vipaka arise and falls away instantly, but the tendency to akusala makes a problem out of experiences. The sound having arisen is seen as a thing lasting and we can't distinguish between the `concept' of sound and the actual sound itself. When dosa arises, the tendency is to then pay more attention to what appears through the ear, and this adding of fuel continues until we can't help blaming something or someone for it. When in fact, was there not the above kind of akusala cittas, what appears through the different senses and the mind alternate in a way that even with relatively less understanding, there would not be any reason to want things to be different. I am not saying that all outward conditions are the same; the hell plane after all is in direct contrast to the heavenly plane. And the human plane is said to be best for the development of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: ??? I am thinking this is almost the same implication of 'good place' 'good time'. When existing in the place (on this earth of human world) do satipatthaana. When it is the time in human realm do satipatthana. A. Where is satipatthaana more frequent? a) hell realms b) animal realms c) ghost realms d) human realm e) deva realms f) brahma realms B. Where is satipatthaana more frequent? a) brothals b) discos c) wars d) retreats e) hurricane f) tsunami It is right that satipatthaana does not depend on *chosen time* and *chosen place*. But could you please answer above 2 questions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But what conditions would act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for sati to arise is not in the concept of *place*, but the actual object of citta at any given moment. And we are far, far away from knowing precisely the actual dhammas. So especially with our yet very weak level of understanding, one that so easily tends to mistake concept for reality, I think it best that we learn more about this distinction rather than *believe* in the stories about better time and place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is natural for us to react with dosa to noisy places, and with lobha to peace and quiet. And it is said that lobha is harder to perceive as an enemy, compared to dosa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Both lobha and dosa are the object of satipatthaana. But 'will satipatthaana more frequently be arising when in hurricane, in tsunami, in torture, in wars?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So do you think it is easier at the retreat for sati to arise especially with preconceived ideas and expectations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For retreats-non-believers the answer will be already there in their mind. It is not *the retreat* that helps. It is *the learned teacher* that matters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And what about the other side, i.e. the tendency to lobha "sexy voice", "brothels" etc. being more than in a retreat? Same here, if seen with wrong understanding, then the retreat will only serve as conditions for more lobha. ====================================================================== Htoo: Lobha is also the object for satipatthaana. That lobha may be related to sensuous things. That lobha may be related to non-sensuous things. Brothals do not have satipatthaana teachers while retreats are led by satipatthaana teachers. As lobha is the object of satipatthaana and you also think retreats are not of your taste then you can choose brothals or anything you like except retreats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Did you say 'Culapanthaka did not have ditthi before he became an > > arahat on that day? Sukinder: I suppose he must have, but I was trying to distinguish his case from the more obvious cases. In his case I believe the primary hindrance was moha rooted in uddacca and that moha with doubt must have arisen relatively less. I was distinguishing mainly with modern day Buddhists who flock like sheep to meditation retreats mostly with miccha ditthi. =============================== Htoo: So you believe Culapanthaka did have ditthi (including self-identity). Sarah aslo said 'self-view' has to be released before the start of journey. Please refer to our very old discussions. Actually ditthi is killed and eradicated at sotapatti magga door. I would not discuss about retreats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Saddha must be with panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here *must* comes from your own thought. There are many saddhaa. Not all saddhaa are with pannaa. This does not mean that those saddhaa without pannaa are not to be developed. Any saddha is good. If with pannaa it is much much more better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: My impression of you from the beginning has been that you have learnt much from the Burmese tradition and because of this, you feel much gratitude and respect towards the Sayadaws. You know that my understanding, influenced by DSG members and K. Sujin is in some very fundamental level, different from your own. However as you know, I have very high esteem for what I regard as your accumulations, and in almost every good thing, you are far superior to me. But I do think that your understanding of patipatti and even pariyatti is not exactly the same as mine. I think this is because K. Sujin is the only teacher I know of, who teaches the way she does, and the Burmese Sayadaws whom you follow, are different. So from my perspective, I consider your background influence as the main obstacle to appreciating K. Sujin's way. Otherwise I think, that once you can overcome this, you will "bloom" and I shall learn even more from you than I do now. ;-) Must go now. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know what you mean, :-)). Take care and please do control the steering wheel. With respect, Htoo Naing 50066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ng Boon Huat, N: This is a more difficult matter. We should find out who is the right friend in Dhamma. Not merely follow persons. It is the Dhamma that matters. Any person who speaks the right Dhamma is a friend. So, we should study the Tipitaka and consider what we read. The Tipitaka is our guide. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Of course, Tipitaka is our guide. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: To Ng Boon Huat, could you please read posts on 'Satipatthaana'? There are also about dhammaanupassanaa. 108 dhammaanupassanaa and 99 saccaanupassanaa. What do you think? 50067 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 542 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha said_ 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi saviitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pathama.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, vitakka vicaaraanam vupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso eko dibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti sukha.m dutiya.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano, sukhanca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti, ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti ''upekkhako satimaa sukha vihaarii''ti, tatiya jaana.m upasampajja viharati, sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassa domanssaana.m atthangamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi catuttha.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-samaadhi.' The Buddha said_ 'Which are path-factor of right concentration?. In this dispensation of mine, a well instructed bhikkhu having eliminated sensuous things in thinking, reviewing, stays with joy and tranquility and enter the first jhaana and stays there, after leaving thinking and reviewing the bhikkhu stay just with joy and tranquility and enter second jhaana and stay there, after leaving joy, the bhikkhu enter third jhaana and stays there as living tranquil and after leaving easeness, the bhikkhu departs all pain, all ease, all mental aggression, all mental pleasure and enter the fouth jhaana with equanimity and stay there. These can be called 'path-factor of concentration'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 50068 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's notion of _pannatti_ rjkjp1 Dear Hal. Not to worry. Here is a passage from another wheel publication ( a different editor??) , that supports Ledi sayadaws comments. (And also how I understand teh matter) The Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 Karunadasa: """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real nature -- to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since sabhava, the intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point of view of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an abhava, a non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact that the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not applied to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of those things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical reality. Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also defined as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own- nature, with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is positively produced. Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality."">> best wishes robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > Robertk, > No unfortuntately, there is no name given, just The Editor (BPS). My > edition of this short treatise, _The Buddhist Philosophy of > Relations_, was published in 1986, Kandy, Sri Lanka. (The Wheel > Publication No. 331/333). > Hal > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" > wrote: > > > Hi Robert, > > > > > > I don't know how helpful this will be, but here is a copy of the > > > relevant text, taken from the _translator's preface_. For general > > > interest I will quote the entire paragraph. As you can see, I was > > quite > ___________________________________________ > > > (Editor's comment at the bottom of p. iii) > > > > > > *_Pannatti_ means concept or idea. The Venerable Author's and the > > > Translator's view that concepts are not subject to impermanence > is > > not > > > supported by the cannonical texts nor by the ancient > commentaries. > > > (Editor) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > > > > Dear Hal, > > Thanks for this. In fact Ledi sayadaw is correct and his assertion > > is supported in detail by the ancient commentaries. I'll try to > find > > some references tonight. Do you happen to have the editors name? > > Robertk 50069 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and U... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/13/05 1:38:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: Hi Howard, ------------------- H: > Hi all - It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no control." -------------------- That can be said with regard to ultimate reality, but it cannot be said with regard to conventional reality. -------------------------------------- Howard: Correct. But, in addition, I think, the point needs to be made that conventional truth is, though in a limited and figurative way, also truth. ------------------------------------- --------------------------------- H: > So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? ;-)) ---------------------------------- That "logic" could appeal only to someone who is confused between ultimate and conventional realty. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree - it would only appeal to such a person *or* to a person who sees conventional truth as merely falsehood. ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- H: > My answer: There must be a middle way not only between sensual excess and self-torture, not only between eternalism and annihilationism, and not only between substantialism and nihilism, but also, for worldlings and even lesser ariyans, a middle way between sammuti-sacca and paramattha-sacca. ---------------------------------------------- Sorry to digress, but you are presuming the Buddha's Middle Way is between substantialism and nihilism. But that is not the Theravada position, is it? According to the texts, dhammas have sabhava (their own substance). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I read the Kaccayanagotta Sutta to say, in part, that the middle way is also a "middle" between substantialism and nihilism. As to the Theravadin position, to the extent that the Theravadin Abhidhamma and commentaries take dhammas to be substantial entitities with self-nature, that is an extent to which I am not a Theravadin. I'm not hung up on categorizing myself as Theravadin or anything else for that matter. But I understand 'sabhava' in Theravada not to mean "substance" but merely "characteristic". ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ H: > A worldling who is one-sidely inclined to sammuti is far from wisdom, and a worldling who is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha is far from compassion - and not so filled with wisdom either ;-). ----------------------- This is true only if, by "worldling," you are referring to a person who confuses ultimate reality with conventional reality. ------------------------------------- Howard: No, we disagree. A worldling who is intellectually overwhelmed by the concept of paramattha dhammas may see conventional truth as utter falsehood. ------------------------------------ But worldlings don't always do that - at least, not at the intellectual level. In fact, I can't imagine that anyone would seriously say, "It's all just conditions - there is no control - therefore I don't have to apologise when I do something hurtful." I'm sure there is no real danger of that happening. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually I think you are quite wrong. There are some very bright intellectuals who are also not very fond of people and who will buttress and defend their misanthropy in any way they can, including an idiosyncratic and doctrinnaire misunderstanding of Buddhism. (Note: I am NOT speaking of you or any other particular individuals on DSG!) --------------------------------------------- The knowledge, "There are only dhammas," has no appeal to hurtful, unapologetic people. --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not so, Ken! It's hard to believe, I know, but there are such people. -------------------------------------------- It appeals only to those who have both wisdom and morality. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Would that were so! ------------------------------------------- That is to say, it appeals to people who have a genuine appreciation of the benefits of kusala dhammas and the dangers of akusala dhammas. ---------------------------- H: > On the other hand, an arahant, and especially a buddha, is filled with a wisdom so supreme that mahakaruna is its natural expression. -------------------------- And, on the smaller scale, a worldling who is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha has a degree of wisdom that makes karuna more likely than it would otherwise have been. ------------------------------------------- Howard: You are underestimating how easily bright but unrealized people can use their intellect in not-fully-conscious service to their own cravings and aversions. But I agree with you that typically Buddhists are good, kind people - among the very kindest. ------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard P.S. In an hour we will be leaving on an auto trip (about 7 hours from our home on Long Island) for a brief vacation in Vermont. We will return late Friday, and I expect to be without internet use until then. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50070 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - .. / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi all - The para 247 contains some serious errors and should be replaced by Han Tun's version that is shown in his email below. Thank you. Tep ========== From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:01 am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 244 - 264 Dear Han - I very much appreciate your valuable contribution for the Pali inserts and, especially, for checking and finding my errors. Your paragraph 247 is very good; my typed para 247 has errors. The Breathing Treatise copy I got looks like the following: 247. When he adverts to these trainings he trains, when he knows them he trains, when he sees, ... [and so on as in para 242 up to] ... when he realizes what is to be realized he trains. So I made the errors while copying para 242 and inserting it for para 247. I will be more mindful next time. Thank you for the nice comment on the summary. Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In SariputtaDhamma@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Dear Tep, > > I have got slightly different version of paragraph 247 > in my books. > [Of course, in my books, paragraphs numbers are not > the same as yours.] > > 247. He trains these three sikkhaa (adhisiila, > adhicitta, adhipannaa) by adverting (imaa tisso > sikkhaayo aavajjanto sikkhati) > by knowing, ... (jaananto sikkhati) > by seeing, ... (passanto sikkhati) . > by reviewing, ... (paccavekkhanto sikkhati) > by steadying his cognizance, .... (cittam > adhitthahanto sikkhati) > by resolving with faith, .... (saddhaaya adhimuccanto > sikkhati) > by exerting energy, ... (viiriyam pagganhanto > sikkhati) > by establishing mindfulness, ... (satim upatthapento > sikkhati) > by concentrating cognizance, … (cittam samaadahanto > sikkhati) > by understanding with understanding, ... (pannaaya > pajaananto sikkhati) > by directly knowing what is to be directly known,... > (abhinneyyam abhijaananto sikkhati) > by fully understanding what is to be fully understood, > ... (parinneyyam parijaananto sikkhati) > by abandoning what is to be abandoned, ...(pahaatabbam > pajahanto sikkhati) > by developing what is to be developed, > ...(bhaavetabbam bhaavento sikkhati) > by realizing what is to be realized, … > (sacchikaatabbam sacchikaronto sikkhati) > ------------------------------ > > As regards your Notes: > > For me, I take 'the body' as '[breath] body'. > Your summary is excellent. > > With metta and deepest respect, > Han Tun > > ================= 50071 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas, dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I'm in a rush, leaving on a vacation, and so I'm replying to just one sentence of your post, a post I thank you for. In a message dated 9/13/05 5:23:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I find dukkha in conventional sense also important, and I understand that paramattha dhammas do not appeal to you. ========================= A clarification, Nina. In fact, paramattha dhammas very much appeal to me! I'm sorry that I have given that impression. They, and the relations holding among them, as a seamless net, constitute what is real. I think of them differently, however, than some others here, however. (And to go into that is far too big a can of worms to open right now! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50072 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultim... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/13/05 5:24:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I am glad you write about the balance between sammutti and paramattha. We can apply it also to dukkha. Nina. ========================= Yes, I understand your point, and it is well made!! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50074 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Rob K > > Hope you're having some great talks in Bangkok. Please report, if you > have time. > > > __________\ Dear Phil Yes it was wonderful, we met on Saturday and today. Mostly I felt urgency thinking of how Khun Sujin is now 79 years old. I have had hundreds of hours of discussions with her over the years, but after only having had a few days over the last two years her speaking seemed so profound. She spoke about how nama and rupa is arising and passing so fast, the rupa and nama that was present has already fallen away. So what is left? Only the sign (nimitta) of the khandhas. Even beginning satipatthana is mostly only knowing the sign, rather than actually knowing realituies directly. But if there is the right way then gradually more can be known. Today she spoke about vipassana nana and how when there is usual sati it is just so natural, exactly like everyday life, but at the moments of vipassana nana the world is different, gone, for those moments. The objects are the same but during normal life the sense doors seem very common - but actually they are so brief. It is different during vipassana because the mind-door is not covered and the difference between nama and rupa is known. Robertk 50075 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas seisen_au Hi Sarah, More comments below.. S: I was just quoting from the Atthasaalinii (PTS, Expositor) for another thread and came across the following in `Triplets in the Maatikiaa', which I think is helpful too: "In the triplet of `Grasped and favourable to grasping,' `grasped' means- seized-as-effect by a kamma, attended by craving and wrong view in the act of sensing or thinking of an object. Upaadaaniyaa means `favourable to grasping' because of the connection with grasping *by having become objects*. The term is applied to objects of grasping. ----- St: I believe this could be describing the relationship/connection that grasping has with dhammas that are favourable to grasping *when* those dhammas are grasped at. I don't think it necessarily implies that dhammas favourable to grasping are always grasped at. In the Vibhanga p.85 it states that: "(The five aggregates)sometimes are grasped(upaadinnaa); sometimes not grasped (anupaadinnaa)." But when it comes to upaadaaniyaa (object of the attachments)it has: "The aggregate of material quality is the object of the attachments. Four aggregates are sometimes the objects of the attachments; sometimes not objects of attachments." St: I believe that if upaadaaiyaa meant `objects of the attachments only when clung to', there would be something like> materiality aggregate is sometimes the object of attachment; sometimes not. ---- "Effects grasped and favourable to grasping' (upaadinnupaadaaniyaa) is a name given to material and mental states born of kamma attended by the `intoxicants' (aasava's). In this way, but in the negative sense, the meaning of the remaining two terms should be understood." St: `material and mental states born of kamma which was attendend by the intoxicants'< This sounds to me to be describing the cause/condition for the arising of dhammas that are upaadinnupaadaaniyaa. I'm not sure on this point. Thanks for your Patience Steve 50076 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Origin, Ceasing, Satisfaction, Danger & Escape ... jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ... > Joop. Really, I don't see or find any conflict at all with the > fine social qualities you often refer to or the soteriological approach to > the teachings. I think that any such conflict merely shows there is much > more for us to consider and understand as KenH recently indicated in a > post. A real understanding of dhammas will lead to greater compassion and > other wholesome qualities. > Hallo Sarah Joop: I don't doubt that but this statement is how an individual can get more other-oriented; and that is important: see my next message of today. But I also have another aim: how to use the language of the Abhidhamma and the Sutta's to express the fact that a human being is a social being; a language that describes the social interaction as a result of this fact; not only at the conventional level but also at the ultimate level. Most of what I read in DSG about this (individual- transcending) topic is even not at the conventional (buddhistic) level, but common-sense popular psychology. I think one should be very careful (not ego-centric) in ones reasoning to aplly the anatta-doctrine to somebody else than to one- self. That why I translated a little bit (I think in a permitted way) the Kaccayanagotta Sutta: 'A suffering being exists': That is a second extreme 'A suffering being doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle I accept the risk that this thought-experiments of me get the label "wrong view"; without this kind of creativity Theravada is dead in fifty years! Metta Joop 50077 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:22am Subject: Benefiting Oneself and Benefiting Others jwromeijn Hallo all In an essay with this title Lambert Schmithausen reminds us that, referring to AN VII-64, the stereotype that Mahayanists (Bodhisattvas) are primarelyconcerned with the welfare and salvation of others; and that Theravadin who is solely concerned with striving for his own salvation, is not correct. "Not correct" if course one does what the Buddha advises us to do. Anguttara Nikaya VII 64 - Dhammaññu Sutta "A monk endowed with these seven qualities is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world. Which seven? There is the case where a monk is one with a sense of Dhamma, a sense of meaning, a sense of himself, a sense of moderation, a sense of time, a sense of social gatherings, & a sense of distinctions among individuals. …. "And how is a monk one with a sense of distinctions among individuals? There is the case where people are known to monk in terms of two categories. "Of two people -- one who wants to see noble ones and one who doesn't -- the one who doesn't want to see noble ones is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does want to see noble ones is, for that reason, to be praised. … "OF TWO PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE THE DHAMMA IN LINE WITH THE DHAMMA, HAVING A SENSE OF DHAMMA, HAVING A SENSE OF MEANING -- ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS, AND ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS -- THE ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS IS TO BE CRITICIZED FOR THAT REASON, THE ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS IS, FOR THAT REASON, TO BE PRAISED. (capitals made by me; Joop) "This is how people are known to a monk in terms of two categories. And this is how a monk is one with a sense of distinctions among individuals. "A monk endowed with these seven qualities is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world." ============================================= It's clear from this Sutta that the Buddha want us (Theravadins) to be social. People who are only interested in their own liberation, their own getting an Arahant, should be criticized. Metta Joop 50078 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:39am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: >> > This is an interesting subject to discuss because I am not so sure > of my position. Really, when I write that wisdom isn't accumulated > I am following my instincts. I can't sufficiently explain why. > > Maybe to cut to the chase you can explain something for me: For how > long is wisdom accumulated, to your knowledge? The Buddha went > through several thousand lifetimes gaining merit, he even went > through all of the levels of hell and all of the animal realms- did > he accumulate wisdom this entire time? Was he a wise being in > hell? We all have lived the same number of lifetimes as the Buddha, > why haven't we all accumulated wisdom like him? At what point did > our wisdom expire, if it is accumulated? > > Give these questions some thought and maybe find some solid evidence > to support your position (and the Buddha is the top authority). I > hope that we both learn a great deal from this exchange. +++++++++++++++ Dear James, Great questions. One great thing about kusala including wisdom is that it is accumulated. One bad thing about all akusala, including wrong view and ignorance is that it is accumulated too. So in one life one may accumulate some understanding of Dhamma and dhammas but another life mostly accumulate wrong view and ignorance. Which comes to the surface in each life depends on many conditions. .As I understand it there is no limit to the time accumlations (including wisdom) are carried on, but ignorance is accumulating too - it gains strength in lives without knowing Dhamma. I haven't read this or heard Nina or anyone say it but maybe it is not so hard to reach the same level of understanding we had in past lives (providing we hear and reflect etc on the right Dhamma)- but more difficult to go further because that takes more understanding. I quoted in this thread earlier: Consider this from the Therigatha: Talking about Theri sundari nanda that at the time of the Buddha Padumuttara "she heard the doctrine preached...she accumulated merit for one hundred thousand aeons (one aeon is billions of years or more) journeying on among devas and men." Finally she attained under this Buddha. The Theri Sukkha heard the Buddha Vipassi. She gained faith, went forth, was one of great learning, expert in the doctrine and possessed of intelligence. Similarly at the time of the Blessed one Sikhi and the Blessed one Vessabhu she observed virtuous conduct and was one of great learning and one expert in the Dhamma. Similarly she went forth in the teaching of Kakusandha, Konagama and Kassapa Buddha's, and she was one of pure virtuos conduct, one of great learning, and one who preached the doctrine..In this buddha era she went forth under Dhammadina and finally became arahant." The time between even one buddha is immense but conditions are carried on citta to citta. I On the question about the Buddha's wisdom in hell- I think it is said that the average being will develop more akusala in such a place but that a bodhisatta can possibly develop some degree of parami (probably of patience). Once when he escaped hell he remembered his life there and steadfastly determined not to be a king - although he was a prince- because a King's duties include overseaing sending people to prison and worse. Duties that can lead to hell. It is said that devadatta, after spending a very long time in hell, will be reborn as a human and attain paccekkabuddha. He has accumulated much akusala , but also much kusala. We too sometimes go through hard experiences and sometimes these become the grinding wheel that sharpens the knife of wisdom, so it seems very possible to me. This is a hard and important topic so I'd like to continue if you are interested. I'll reply to Swee Boon when I have time too. Robert 50079 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:34am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again James. > > The post I was writing got lost, I thought, but now I see it was > actually posted. So you got two versions. I think I was feeling more > irritable when I wrote the first one - interesting to see how we are > different from moment to moment. More conditions. > > Phil Okay, I will respond to the more irritable post of the two. I like irritable sometimes; it is more real. That is one reason why I like your posts so much, even though they confuse Swee Boon, because you are real in your posts. Phil: Oh, OK. That's what you meant. I see "the heart" and "wisdom" as two wings, which is how it is described in Tibetan Buddhism, I think. James: You could be right. I wasn't really trying to be technically correct. Phil: No, let's drop it. Let's agree to disagree. That's often the best thing to do. We're both too busy for pointless debates. James: Okay. Too bad, but okay. Phil: You've been nasty before, you'll be nasty again. You certainly are nasty in your latest posts to Sarah. I've never seen you nastier, actually. James: Ohhhh, she baits me and I bait her. It's nothing new really. Don't know if you are familiar with the TV show Star Trek but I think Sarah and I are very much like Dr. Bones and Mr. Spock from Star Trek. Dr. Bones (James) is always frustrated at Mr. Spock (Sarah) for his infernal logic and unemotionality. Mr. Spock baits him right back by being even more logical and unemotional in response to the outbursts. Sarah and I are quite like that. The more she becomes cool and dispassionate, the more unglued I become! hehehe...But this is an argument/debate and it should be expected to get heated at times. These are issues Sarah and I both feel passionately about or we wouldn't argue them. Phil: BTW, it wasn't Sarah that told amr that he didn't exist - it was me. James: No, you are mistaken. She said it first- you just picked up on it and elaborated further. Phil: So your question to Sarah about whether she asked her students if they existed or not should have been to me. And the answer is no, because they do not know the Buddha's teaching. James: That question was directed to Sarah because I have often been curious about that. You see, I wrote several posts to some of her students about Buddhism, so they were familiar with the teaching. She mentioned my students and I thought I would ask the question I have always been wondering: When she spoke about Buddhism to her students did she tell them that they didn't exist? Could you imagine Sarah curting the subject of anatta? ;-)) I wondered if it happened and what were their reactions. It wasn't a vieled attack in any way. Phil: Since Amr is with someone who knows the Buddha's teaching and could explain what I meant, I guess I spontaneously said that to him. It was unwise, but I personally believe it is not a bad thing to drop ultimate truths on people. James: It was unwise for Sarah, but not unwise for you. Your intentions, as I saw them, were different. BTW, Amr had a fourth motorcycle accident today! He needs to go to the hospital to have his foot x-rayed. I'm at my wit's end! Especially since I am the one who bought him the motorcycle! (long story). Phil: I did with Naomi. She was able to understand khandas, intellectually - not that she doesn't see my Dhamma study as an escape from reality, James: Her and me both, Buddy. But you should know my views on that subject. Loving Kindness (I won't use "Metta" with you anymore as requested ;- )), James ps. One comment from your other post I want to reply to: Phil: I find this part hard to believe. How could you have been communicating with people here for years and not know what lobha is? A bit disingeneous (sp?), I think, but never mind. James: It is not disingenuous!! I can't believe you would say that about me! And you think I am nasty? hehehe.. Let me tell you some background information: When I first joined DSG I could tell that it was a group of the big league in dhamma circles. Granted, I didn't agree with the Abhidhamma focus after some research, but the posts beat the inane conversations at other groups. I also thought I should get a Pali dictionary so that I could participate more fully- and I went to the largest bookstore in Phoenix and ordered one. Well, the bookstore informed me that the Pali dictionary I wanted was no longer in print and they couldn't get me one. I took that as a sign- karma- because I had found in the interm that Pali is used quite often in DSG not to elaborate or qualify, it is used to bolster conceit and ego. I decided that I wanted no part of that and have refused to learn elaborate Pali. Yes, I know the basic words: like kamma, dhamma, dukkha, metta, sila, etc. But I make it a point to not learn more advanced words. Actually, in this group this decision is very convenient because I am blocked out of most of the posts (which stops me from wasting my time) and I make a lot less enemies (could you imagine the terror and havoc I could cause in this group if I was fluent in Pali? ;-)). But, of course I know what lobha means, I just didn't know it by that word. And don't expect me to use "lobha" in posts anytime soon. I only looked it up for you because you are such a sweet guy. 50080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. nilovg Dear Sarah and Rob K, Very glad with your post Robert. I also feel a sense of urgency. I prefer to listen to her talks on awareness now, we need it so much. Sarah, you said I can ask her about knotty points of Dispeller I looked up, but I prefer vipassana. Not much time is left! Nina. op 13-09-2005 15:26 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: Mostly I felt > urgency thinking of how Khun Sujin is now 79 years old. I have had > hundreds of hours of discussions with her over the years, but after only > having had a few days over the last two years her speaking seemed so > profound. 50081 From: nina Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:56am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Higher Trainings in Anapanasati buddhistmedi... Hi, all DSG Friends - On 8/30/05 I asked a question on the meaning of the word 'sikkhati' that appeared 14 times in the vatthu #3 through # 16 of the Anapanasati, while 'pajaanaati' occurred only two times in vatthu #1 and #2. >Tep: Please notice the word 'sikkhati' which means "training" or practice such that full awareness of the whole breath body is accomplished. >In the first two vatthus of the breathing meditation there is only the word ' pajaanaati ', not 'sikkhati', for example : >'Digham vaa assasanto digham assasaami-ti pajaanaati', which means ' while breathing in long, he knows "I am breathing in long",' etc. >Does anybody know why the text drops >'pajaanaati' and turns >to 'sikkhati' instead? Let's find out what the great Arahant Sariputta explained about 'sikkhati'. The first line of para 247 says: When he adverts to these three trainings he trains (imaa tisso sikkhaayo aavajjanto sikkhati). And para 246 describes what trainings are involved in the breathing meditation. 246. In-breaths and out-breaths while accqainted with the whole body [of breaths] are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; they are Purification of Cognizance in the sense of non-distraction(avikkhepa); they are Purification of View in the sense of seeing(dassana). The meaning of restraint therein is training(sikkhaa) in the Higher Virtue (adhisila); the meaning of non-distraction therein is training in the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta); the meaning of seein therein is training in the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa). So it is clears that 'sikhati' = train, while sikkha = training that involves the Higher Virtue(adhisiila sikkha), the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta sikkha), and the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa sikkha). Question: ------------- Besides adverting, what else can the breathing meditator do to train in the higher sila-samadhi-pannaa ? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi all - > > The para 247 contains some serious errors and should be replaced > by Han Tun's version that is shown in his email below. > > Thank you. > > > Tep > > ========== 50083 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) mlnease Hi Sarah, How almost incredibly apt--thanks very much for this. Which comy? Do you have it in English? Thanks Again, mn > OK, I can't resist, this is for Mike, from the comy note to the Sallekha > sutta, Nyanaponika transl: > "..The Thera's question concerns those who overrate the degree of their > achievement, i.e those who believe that, in their meditative practice, > they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. > Overestimation (abhimaana), in that sense, 'does not arise in ignorant > common people (baala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly > life, nor does it arise in the Noble Disciples > (ariya-saavaka).....Self-overestimation can only occur in one who actually > practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by way > of tranquility or insight." 50084 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:20pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi James > James: Ohhhh, she baits me and I bait her. It's nothing new > really. Don't know if you are familiar with the TV show Star Trek > but I think Sarah and I are very much like Dr. Bones and Mr. Spock > from Star Trek. Oh, OK. Actually, I usually think of you two as the Skipper and Gilligan. But I see what you mean. > > Phil: BTW, it wasn't Sarah that told amr that he didn't exist - it > was me. > > James: No, you are mistaken. She said it first- you just picked up > on it and elaborated further. Not that it really matters, but I don't remember reading anything Sarah wrote about Amr, though I'm sure she did. I said that out of the blue, during a ramble. I had read Amr's response to Dan, and his comment about what he risks by showing interest in a religion other than Islam, and I felt concern for the angerhe expressed and wrote what I always feel, personally - knowing ultimate truth even intellectually has spared me from a lot of emotional wear and tear. > James: That question was directed to Sarah because I have often been > curious about that. You see, I wrote several posts to some of her > students about Buddhism, so they were familiar with the teaching. (snip) It wasn't a vieled attack > in any way. Right, I forgot about those posts. That was what I thought was the nastiest part, so I see I was mistaken there. > James: It was unwise for Sarah, but not unwise for you. Your > intentions, as I saw them, were different. You can only guess my inentions, or Sarah's, really. So is it wise to go after someone based on your assumption of their intentions? Ah, I forgot that you have the psychic thing happening. BTW, Amr had a fourth > motorcycle accident today! He needs to go to the hospital to have > his foot x-rayed. I'm at my wit's end! Especially since I am the > one who bought him the motorcycle! (long story). This sounds like a bad situation. Please tell him that that frigging motorcycle doesn't exist, so he's an idiot to keep riding it. But I imagine circumstances require it, getting to work or something. > > Phil: I did with Naomi. She was able to understand khandas, > intellectually - not that she doesn't see my Dhamma study as an > escape from reality, > > James: Her and me both, Buddy. But you should know my views on that > subject. Yes, and you are both wrong. Dhamma study certainly doesn't help my career (though it may in the long run by freeing more loving- kindness and compassion in my writing) and seems to dilute my interest in wordly affairs to some degree but it is not an escape from reality. We get closer to reality, not further away from it. That includes you. But Naomi's right that I am wasting a good writing talent by not applying myself to my stories more diligently. I think I will now that the draining summer heat is on the verge of subsiding. We'll see. > Phil: I find this part hard to believe. How could you have been > communicating with people here for years and not know what lobha is? > A bit disingeneous (sp?), I think, but never mind. > > James: It is not disingenuous!! I can't believe you would say that > about me! And you think I am nasty? hehehe.. But I know you're not stupid, so how, I wondered, could you come across "lobha" so often in posts and not understand it by context? Have you ever read "A Clockwork Orange?" A brilliant book, because as you problably know it contains a lot of this created language, and has a glossary in the back, but if you just keep reading it, the meaning of the words sinks in from the context and you don't need the glossary. Some of the Pali at DSG is like that. BTW, when I first came across DSG and posted a question about the paramis (perfections), I was turned off by all the Pali and thought this was a group for intellectual wankers. It was only the interest that Sarah showed in me, mentioninng me a few days later, that kept me hanging around long enough to learn that that the people here are warm and caring and that the Pali has a purpose in making for more efficient and incisive Dhamma discussion. On the other hand, I should try to remember that there are visitors coming by who don't understand the Pali terms. If there are any such visitors reading this, please hang in there and don't let the Pali turn you off. These terms will help bring you closer to the core of the Buddha's teaching - they'll become very familiar to you soon enough. > I only looked it up > for you because you are such a sweet guy. Oh baby. I love it when you purrrrr.... Phil 50085 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi again, James This was a really important point that you didn't pick up on, so I'll post it again just in case you or others missed it. J > > I just look at what the Buddha taught and he recommended the > > cultivation of metta- end of story. He didn't preface his > teachings > > with all kinds of warnings about unwholesome desires. > Ph > Haven't you read any suttas about the unwholesome roots of greed, > hated and delusion? I think there are hundreds of them. Do you think > Dhamma study is somehow immune to them by some sort of built in > defilement-buster? I thought about this after, and thought that it is an important point. People might believe that by the simple act of reading a sutta they are protected against ignorance, that the suttas have some sort of intrinsic, built-in wisdom, available to anyone who reads it. I used to approach them in that way. But of course, if we bring lobha (greed) and ignorance to a sutta, that is what we will take away from it, often enough, only compounded now by wrong view, because we know the words of the Buddha - anybody can understand and memorize and quote the words - but with an understanding warped by our own desires and shortcomings in the insight department. That is the danger in reading suttas with too much confidence. On the other hand, our understanding can certainly develop from reading suttas. Of course it can. There would be no hope if it couldn't. A double-edged sword, or something like that. Phil 50086 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi Rob K Thanks for the report. > Yes it was wonderful, we met on Saturday and today. Mostly I felt > urgency thinking of how Khun Sujin is now 79 years old. I have had > hundreds of hours of discussions with her over the years, but after only > having had a few days over the last two years her speaking seemed so > profound. Right after this coffee I will finally go to the post office to *finally* mail my spare CD Rom (India 2001) to you. (Thanks for your patience.) We can listen to her every day, even after she passes on, as she will, probably before we do but who knows. > > She spoke about how nama and rupa is arising and passing so fast, the > rupa and nama that was present has already fallen away. So what is > left? Only the sign (nimitta) of the khandhas. Even beginning > satipatthana is mostly only knowing the sign, rather than actually > knowing realituies directly. But if there is the right way then gradually > more can be known. This reminds me of a talk in which she asked what the difference is between the world we see when we are dreaming, and the world when we are awake. I will reflect on that as I walk to the post office. > > Today she spoke about vipassana nana and how when there is usual > sati it is just so natural, exactly like everyday life, but at the moments of > vipassana nana the world is different, gone, for those moments. The > objects are the same but during normal life the sense doors seem very > common - but actually they are so brief. It is different during vipassana > because the mind-door is not covered and the difference between nama > and rupa is known. I like the way she says that objects go from sense door to mind door as quickly as water between two sheets of very thin paper that are stuck together. It is only in a moment of vipassana nana that the difference between nama and rupa is really known, directly known? BTW, I often hear the term vipassana used with an ordinal number, the "first vipassana nana" for example, during the talks, but didn't understand it. I thought it referred to the first stage of enlightenment, the moment of becoming sotappanna, but I see I was wrong. What does vipassana nana mean and "first" viapassana nana? Thanks in advance. Phil 50087 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Re: Benefiting Oneself and Benefiting Others philofillet Hi Joop Thank you, Joop. This is a good reminder. > THE ONE WHO > PRACTICES FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT BUT NOT THAT OF OTHERS IS TO BE > CRITICIZED FOR THAT REASON, THE ONE WHO PRACTICES FOR BOTH HIS OWN > BENEFIT AND THAT OF OTHERS IS, FOR THAT REASON, TO BE PRAISED. > (capitals made by me; Joop) > > ============================================= > > It's clear from this Sutta that the Buddha want us (Theravadins) to > be social. People who are only interested in their own liberation, > their own getting an Arahant, should be criticized. Personally, I think the order they are mentionned is important. We have to sort out our own understanding before we can hope to help others. (I am thinking of helping others by helping them to understand Dhamma, which is the greatest way to help others.) This includes understanding of such things as the fact that we cannot know the other's citta, so it is incorrect to assume that an act of kindness on our part will condition kusala citta (ie benefit) for the other. But the kusala will certainly benefit us. Also, we have to accept that there are often akusala reasons for wanting to help others. But as our understanding deepens, both our motivation to help others and our ability to do so will be purified and strengthened, I think. But it is a good reminder, thanks! Phil 50088 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Five Aggregates mlnease Hi Chin Ka (and Charles), ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 1:47 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Five Aggregates I do appreciate Charles' contribution (Thanks, Charles). As I see it, the answer to your question, "Why couldn't He just define the human being as being made up of three aggregates..." is that his exposition of the aggregates was not meant at all to 'define the human being'. It was, I think, an explanation of the specific things (dhammas) that can be identified with as self and can also be the foundations of insight, the way out of dukkha. Just my opinion, of course. mike > Hi chin kah, > > Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) are suttra terms. Citta and > Cetasikas are Abhidhamma terms. The Buddha spoke the suttra terms, and > some > of his learned monks classified and extend these terms to develop the > Abhidhamma (Why: some say to offer more details and further > understanding). > > The bottom line is that Citta and Cetasikas are terms used after the > Buddha's death. Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) are the terms > used > during the Buddha's life-time. > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > > -----Original Message----- > ent: Monday, 22 August, 2005 09:34 > Subject: [dsg] Five Aggregates > > Dear all, > > The Buddha taught that the human being is made up of five aggregates - > Nama > (feeling; perception; mental formations and consciousness) and Rupa > (matter). > i.e. > > 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) > 2. The Aggregate of Consciousness (Vinnana) > 3. The Aggregate of Perception (Sanna) > 4. The Aggregate of Feeling (Vedana) > 5. The Aggregate of Mental Formation (Sankhara) > > (2) are the cittas > (3), (4) and (5) are the cetasikas (52 in all). > > My question is: Was there any reason for the Lord Buddha to specifically > single out Perception (Sanna) and Feeling (Vedana) from the group of 52 > cetasikas and classify them as two of the five aggregates? Why couldn't > He > just define the human being as being made up of three aggregates - ie > > 1. The Aggregate of Matter (Rupa) > 2. The Aggregate of Citta > 3. The Aggregate of Cetasikas > > chin kah 50089 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:52pm Subject: Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. philofillet Hello Nina, Lodewijk and all After some technical problems (mainly my first i-pod being destroyed when *someone* put it in the washing machine by mistake) I am downloading these chapters and will begin to listen. It is good timing for me, because I am feeling it is time to understand kusala more - I am always looking at akusala and it is making me a bit of a sourpuss when it comes to Dhamma. I wonder what the difference is between saying one will study and reflect on the perfections, and one will study and reflect on kusala. It seems like the same thing. I also heard A. Sujin say that there is no need to think about perfections, per se, it is enough to think of kusala citta. And yet she wrote the book on the perfections. In any case, I am feeling very grateful to have this good listening material for my long commuting time. Phil 50090 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:04pm Subject: As lasting as Foam ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Clusters of Clinging are Quite Unsubstantial! The Buddha once said: Form is like a lump of foam Feeling is like a water bubble Perception is like a mirage Constructions like a hollow tree And consciousness like an illusion! So explained the Kinsman of the Sun. However one may reflect over it And carefully investigate it: When one views it carefully. It appears but empty and void Pointing at this body The One of Broad Wisdom has taught that if only three things is lacking, one will have leave this fragile form, ditched all behind. When metabolism, heat and consciousness Depart from this physical body Then it lies there, cast away: Unconscious food for others... This illusion, beguiler of fools. It is similar to a serial killer... In this, is neither substance nor safety. Any bhikkhu with his enthusiasm aroused Should look upon the 5 clusters thus; Disgusted & realistic, both day & night Ever aware & clearly comprehending. He should eliminate all the mental chains And thereby make a refuge for himself And thereby become his own lamp & light Let him train as with his head ablaze with fire Yearning only for the everlasting deathless state. Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 142-3 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-095.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50091 From: connie Date: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:50pm Subject: Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nichiconn Thank you very much, Dear Reader! and your wife, and tom and everyone. you, too, phil! peace, connie http://westheimers.net/dsg/perfections 50092 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:39am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 273- Wrong View/di.t.thi (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] When the wrong view of self has been eradicated one will not cling to speculative theories anymore. But so long as one still believes in a self, one is bound to cling to speculative theories. We all have accumulated “personality-belief” or “sakkaya-diììhi”. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Citta, §3, Isidatta) that the monk Isidatta said to Citta, the housefather: * "Herein, housefather, the untaught manyfolk, who discern not those who are ariyans, who are unskilled in the ariyan doctrine, who are untrained in the ariyan doctrine… they regard body as the self, they regard the self as having body, body as being in the self, the self as 1 Translated with its commentary by Ven. Bodhi, BPS. Kandy, 1978. being in the body…" * Thus, there are four kinds of the wrong view of personality-belief with regard to “body”, rúpa-kkhandha. The same is said about the wrong views with regard to the four nåma-kkhandhas of feeling, perception, the “formations” or “activities” and consciousness. Since there are four kinds of the wrong view of personalitybelief, sakkaya-diììhi, concerning each of the five khandhas, there are twenty kinds of this wrong view in all1. One may cling with wrong view to the idea of “I see”, “my body”, “my will”. But they are only khandhas, conditioned elements which arise and fall away. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50093 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha said_ 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi saviitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pathama.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, vitakka vicaaraanam vupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso eko dibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti sukha.m dutiya.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano, sukhanca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti, ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti ''upekkhako satimaa sukha vihaarii''ti, tatiya jaana.m upasampajja viharati, sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassa domanssaana.m atthangamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi catuttha.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati. Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-samaadhi.' All these are The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Katamo means 'what?' 'which?' and katamaa means 'what? for many' or 'which? for many'. Bhikkhave means 'O! Monk' and this is 'addressing to bhikkhu disciples'. Samma-samaadhi has two parts in it. Samma and samaadhi. Samma means 'right' 'well' 'proper' 'true' 'genuine' 'profitable' 'good' etc etc. Samaadhi may come from 'sama' + 'adhi'. Adhi means 'great' 'higher' 'superior' 'big' 'hugh' 'senior'. Sama means 'calmness' 'tranquility' 'mental quietness'. Saman carati means 'to become quiet'. So sama or tranquility which has great degrees is called sama+ adhi or samaadhi. Among samaadhi all those that are profitable, wholesome, good are called sammaa-samaadhi. Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. The question can be seen above and it indicates that there are more than one which are sammaa-samaadhi. The Buddha said 'what are sammaa-samaadhi?' and then answered this as above. The description says that there are many sammaa-samaadhi. 1. leaving sensuality and all unprofitable things one stays with a)initial application, b)sustained application, c)joy, d) tranquility. 2. one enters the first jhaana. 3. leaving initial application and sustained application one stays with a)joy, and b) tranquility. 4. one enters the second jhaana. 5. leaving joy one just stays with tranquility (sukha-vihaarii or staying with sukha or pleasantness). 6. one enters the third jhaana. 7. leaving tranquility one just stays equanimously (leaving dukkha, sukha, domanassa, somanassa and just stays with equanimous feeling). 8. one enters the fourth jhaana. Then The Buddha said 'Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi'. Then The Buddha said 'These can be called, O! Monk, right concentration'. Number 7 already includes all 4 aruupa jhaanas and their preliminary mental states. That is they all just have 'equanimity'. So sammaa-samaadhi are many. All 4 ruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. All 4 aruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before all 4 ruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before all 4 aruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. As this sutta is to general bhikkhu-sangha there is no details regarding actual states of magga. As the topic is 'sammaa-samaadhi' all sammaa-samaadhis were preached. When one is absorbed then there is no way to see any anicca or dukkha or anatta. Even when absorbed then one has to come out of jhaana and then does retrospection (paccavakkhana) and this retrospection leads to seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta and then when there is maturity magga naana arises along with magga citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. 50094 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 273- Wrong View/di.t.thi (i) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > > When the wrong view of self has been eradicated one will not > cling to speculative theories anymore. But so long as one still > believes in a self, one is bound to cling to speculative theories. > We all have accumulated "personality-belief" or "sakkaya-diììhi". > We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred > Sayings about Citta, §3, Isidatta) that the monk Isidatta said to > Citta, the housefather: > * > "Herein, housefather, the untaught manyfolk, who discern not those > who are ariyans, who are unskilled in the ariyan doctrine, who are > untrained in the ariyan doctrine… they regard body as the self, they > regard the self as having body, body as being in the self, the self as > 1 Translated with its commentary by Ven. Bodhi, BPS. Kandy, 1978. > being in the body…" > * > Thus, there are four kinds of the wrong view of personality-belief > with regard to "body", rúpa-kkhandha. The same is said about > the wrong views with regard to the four nåma-kkhandhas of > feeling, perception, the "formations" or "activities" and consciousness. > > Since there are four kinds of the wrong view of personalitybelief, > sakkaya-diììhi, concerning each of the five khandhas, there > are twenty kinds of this wrong view in all1. One may cling with > wrong view to the idea of "I see", "my body", "my will". But they > are only khandhas, conditioned elements which arise and fall > away. > ***** > [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Here is not a question, not a comment, not a different view. So I am afraid to post as a reply to this series. But just as a thought and that is all. Sakkaaya ditthi. We have talked about ditthi. When we say 'ditthi' it means whatever it is that it is wrong-view even though the word 'ditthi' which comes from 'disa' has the meaning of view. We talked sammaa-ditthi and micchaa-ditthi. When 'ditthi' appears as a single word it is micchaa-ditthi. Now we encounter sakkaaya ditthi. Sakkaaya = sa + kkaaya Sa means 'with' 'inclusive' 'along with' 'including'. Kaaya means 'body' 'compilation' 'combination' 'heaping up'. So 'sakkaaya ditthi' may mean 'seeing non-body as body' 'seeing non- self as self' 'seeing non-person as person'. Example; Htoo Htoo as you would know is nothing. If I say 'Htoo' does not exist many or some may think this is illogical. Again some may think that they understand 'names' are pannatti but when leaving the word 'Htoo' there does exist a person who represent as 'Htoo'. Here as long as one sees in that way then he or she does hold the view of sakkaaya ditthi. Quite hard to penetrate. Why? Because this is the matter of sotapatti magga citta, who bears sotapatti magga naana (panna in that magga citta). So leaving the view of 'self' before doing pa.tipatti is illogical. But there might well be left temporarily even though permanently as in case of arising of sotapatti magga naana. Bush does not arise, Bush does not pass away. Htoo does not arise, Htoo does not pass away. There is no dhamma that is called 'Bush'. There is no dhamma that is called 'Htoo'. But *Bush* exists and *Htoo* also exists. If not, *Bush* will not be seen on screen and *Htoo* will not be seen on screen. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50095 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Higher Trainings in Anapanasati htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all DSG Friends - Question: ------------- Besides adverting, what else can the breathing meditator do to train in the higher sila-samadhi-pannaa ? Respectfully, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your post about 'sikkhati' and Venerable Sariputta explanations. Q: Besides 'avajjaaya', what else? can be done for adhisiila, adhi- citta, adhi-pannaa. If someone perfects indriyasamvara siila it will become adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and not 'through discussions among Groups for understanding. How to do? Avoid, avoid, avoid. How to avoid? Stay away from what is bad. How to know that are bad? Study, study, study. How to study? Associate with the wise. This siila also leads to adhi-citta. If someone stays with indriyasamvara siila his mind is pure. On the ground of pure and stable mind pannaa has to be searched. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50096 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:51am Subject: FW: new domain of Tom for the Perfections nilovg ---------- Van: Tom Westheimer Datum: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:47:46 -0400 Aan: Nina van Gorkom Cc: Jonothan Abbott Primary Address Onderwerp: new domain http://dhammawords.org/perfections/ is a new address for the perfections tom 50097 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nilovg Hi Phil, See Tom's new domain. Ch 3, last pages are missing and also last part of Ch 7. Tom will speak these in later on. Ph: I wonder what the difference is between saying one will study and > reflect on the perfections, and one will study and reflect on > kusala. It seems like the same thing. I also heard A. Sujin say that > there is no need to think about perfections, per se, it is enough to > think of kusala citta. And yet she wrote the book on the perfections. ------ N: The book can help understanding of what kusala as a perfection is. What we hear sinks in and is beneficial as a condition for kusala later on. We do not have to tire ourselves: what perfection is this, is this a perfection or not, etc. Any kind of kusala without wanting any gain for ourselves and with the aim to have less defilements can be a perfection. I like it that Kh Sujin explains all the time that all the perfections are developing together. The story of the ascetic Akitti is an example. I like to see the connection between all the perfections. Not one should be neglected, we need them all. She also said that we may express confidence in kusala with words, but that this is not enough. Confidence should be applied in deeds. She also said that patience and viriya are needed for listening, because sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us very much. Nina. 50098 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 544 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma. They are a) akusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment-wisdom, and d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. The first three stocks have been discussed in the previous posts. d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. Nibbana is not a khandhaa. Nibbana is not an aggregate. Only naama and ruupa are aggregates or khandhaa. These 5 khandhas are 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50099 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lay people and the Vinaya htootintnaing Dear Christine, Vinaya is second to abhidhamma in terms of contents. Pavaaranaa is for release of any possibility of having broken rules admitting each other and brings up harmony of sangha. I think lay people should not judge on monks regarding vinaya rules. Even not all monks are experts in vinaya. Even in the presence of The Buddha there were fighting because of vinaya. This reveals subtleness of vinaya. Even when all monks are not vinaya experts, lay people at any time should not judge on monks' behaviour that might break vinaya. Just my opinion. With Metta, Htoo Naing On 12/09/05, Christine Forsyth wrote: Hello all, Elsewhere lay people have written with concerns about many monks behaving in ways that are not appropriate, not in keeping with the Vinaya, and sometimes plainly shameless and corrupt. Bhikkhu Pesala explained that a lay person needs to be wise to know how to deal with this delicate situation skilfully. He said that even the worst of monks have some merits and virtues, and all but the best of monks (the Arahants) have some faults and defects that you can find fault with if you look hard enough. Even the Arahants metta and peace, Chris 50100 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 272- Wrong View/di.t.thi (h) mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma. Hi there... Any one has the complete list of all the 62 Wrong Views. I don't want to sound too accadamic but I think my list is a few short. Appreciate if any one can share the complete list together with pali and english. Thanks metta mr39515 --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > > In the Brahma-jåla-sutta (“The All-Embracing Net of > Views”1, > The Dialogues of the Buddha I, no. 1) sixty-two > kinds of wrong > view are mentioned. <....> 50101 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa mr39515 I agreed with you that we need to study first. What I meant here is to have a teacher with will verse in the Dhamma. Please don't get me wrong and silly follow anyone. Everything begins with Theories, Practical and finally Reliazation. Hope this helps. Metta, mr39515 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > B: I would like to hi-lite that it is best to > practice > > meditation with a teacher as many things may > arises > > and we do need to consult someone if doubts do > come > > up... > -------- > N: This is a more difficult matter. We should find > out who is the right > friend in Dhamma. Not merely follow persons. It is > the Dhamma that matters. > Any person who speaks the right Dhamma is a friend. > So, we should study the > Tipitaka and consider what we read. The Tipitaka is > our guide. > Nina. <...> 50102 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > How almost incredibly apt--thanks very much for this. Which comy? Do > you > have it in English? ... S: it's from Nyanaponika's translation in a wheel. You can find it on line too: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel061.html#ch2 The Simile of the Cloth and The Discourse on Effacement Two Discourses of the Buddha from the Majjhima Nikaya Edited with Introduction and Notes by Nyanaponika Thera The Wheel Publication No. 61/62 ISBN 955-24-0004-X ***** S: Lots of helpful commentary notes to both suttas. I've quoted from both suttas and notes in previous discussions with James and others. Let me know if you find anything else you particularly find useful. Metta, Sarah ======== > > OK, I can't resist, this is for Mike, from the comy note to the > Sallekha > > sutta, Nyanaponika transl: > > "..The Thera's question concerns those who overrate the degree of > their > > achievement, i.e those who believe that, in their meditative practice, > > they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. > > Overestimation (abhimaana), in that sense, 'does not arise in ignorant > > common people (baala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly > > life, nor does it arise in the Noble Disciples > > (ariya-saavaka).....Self-overestimation can only occur in one who > actually > > practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by > way > > of tranquility or insight." 50103 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Higher Trainings in Anapanasati nilovg Hi Tep, I would have liked to go deeper into the text, but I have lack of time. As I understand it, the three trainings refer to satipatthana. He can do nothing else but being aware of the nama or rupa that appears at the present moment. When there is samma-ditthi and samma-sati and the other path factors, there are actually these three trainings. The Co states that even though there is no virati cetasika during jhaana and vipassanaa, there is samvara, guarding. There is siilavisuddhi because there is guarding (rawang). Because of non-distraction is citta visuddhi. Because of seeing there is ditthi visuddhi. Nina. op 14-09-2005 00:51 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > So it is clears that 'sikhati' = train, while sikkha = training that involves > the Higher Virtue(adhisiila sikkha), the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta > sikkha), and the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa sikkha). > > Question: > ------------- > > Besides adverting, what else can the breathing meditator do to train in > the higher sila-samadhi-pannaa ? 50104 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:17am Subject: Re: As lasting as Foam ... !!! nidive Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > The Clusters of Clinging are Quite Unsubstantial! > > The Buddha once said: > Form is like a lump of foam > Feeling is like a water bubble > Perception is like a mirage > Constructions like a hollow tree > And consciousness like an illusion! > So explained the Kinsman of the Sun. Shouldn't it be: The Clusters of Clinging are Truly Unsubstantial! There is something funny about the word "Quite". Regards, Swee Boon 50105 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:21am Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) onco111 Hi Sarah and Mike, The commentary says: "Self-overestimation can ONLY occur in one who actually practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by way of tranquility or insight."[emphasis mine] ...and to think that I thought that self-overestimation was characteristic of putthujana in general! (And still I do think that, commentary notwithstanding.) Metta, Dan 50106 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:55am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > > Today she spoke about vipassana nana and how when there is usual > > sati it is just so natural, exactly like everyday life, but at the > moments of > > vipassana nana the world is different, gone, for those moments. > The > > objects are the same but during normal life the sense doors seem > very > > common - but actually they are so brief. It is different during > vipassana > > because the mind-door is not covered and the difference between > nama > > and rupa is known. > ============================ > I like the way she says that objects go from sense door to mind > door as quickly as water between two sheets of very thin paper that > are stuck together. > > It is only in a moment of vipassana nana that the difference > between nama and rupa is really known, directly known? +++++++++ Dear Phil, when there is sati it knows rupa or nama - but during vipassana nana the difference between rupa and nama becomes clear. The sense door processes are very infrequent compared to mind-dorr processes but in daily life it seems that sense door processes go on and on- we sem to see almost continually: the sense door processes cover teh mind-dorr process. When there is vipassana nana for a short time the mind-dooor becomes clear and there is awareness of teh differnce between the sense door and mind door and rupa and nama. Completely different from now. This is nothing like reflecting on nama and rupa and sensing hardness etc. Anattaness must be very apparent too becuase the proceses are arsing and passing so unimaginably quickly- and yet panna knows them. No one could arrange it. > > BTW, I often hear the term vipassana used with an ordinal number, > the "first vipassana nana" for example, during the talks, but didn't > understand it. I thought it referred to the first stage of > enlightenment, the moment of becoming sotappanna, but I see I was > wrong. > > What does vipassana nana mean and "first" viapassana nana? Thanks > in advance. ____ Many stages of vipassana before sotapanna- the first is called namarupaparicchedda nana (delimiting nama and rupa). It cannot be gained by wanting or thinking or ignornace, only by genuine sati and insight. Robertk 50107 From: nina Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:41am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 50108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Connie, Lodewijk appreciated your kind words. It encouraged him. I frwd your post to Tom. Nina. op 14-09-2005 07:50 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > Thank you very much, Dear Reader! > and your wife, and tom and everyone. you, too, phil! 50109 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) mlnease Hi Dan, Interesting point! Though to me, this just suggests how very common the temporary suppression of the defilements is, even for us puthujjanas--and thus what a grave error to mistake it for the path. I suppose that the meaning of 'self-overestimation' in this context may refer to something other than what the expression might ordinarily connote--but what do I know? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:21 AM Subject: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) > Hi Sarah and Mike, > > The commentary says: "Self-overestimation can ONLY occur in one who > actually practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the > defilements by way of tranquility or insight."[emphasis mine] > > ...and to think that I thought that self-overestimation was > characteristic of putthujana in general! (And still I do think that, > commentary notwithstanding.) > > Metta, > > Dan 50110 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 0:44pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Robert K., You wrote that you would like to continue this discussion because of its importance. I agree with that and wish to continue this discussion also. I still cannot say with 100% certainty that wisdom isn't accumulated, because I can't find the Buddha specifically saying that, however I am finding that the nature of wisdom and how it is cultivated doesn't seem identify wisdom as an accumulation. Take for example the Panna Sutta (AN VIII.2), where the Buddha describes the development of wisdom- the Buddha doesn't mention anything about the accumulation of wisdom from lifetime to lifetime. Actually, the sutta is very straightforward: Find a teacher or respectable friend; learn the dhamma from this teacher/respectable friend and ask questions until all confusions are put aside; seclude oneself in body and mind; remain virtuous by following the precepts; study the dhamma until it is well understood and becomes a part of one's view; develop skillful mental qualities and abandon unskillful mental qualities; only speak about the dhamma or maintain noble silence, not idle chit-chat; and maintain mindfulness of the arising and passing away of the aggregates. This is how one develops wisdom of the Four Noble Truths. Nothing is mentioned about accumulations. Wouldn't such a thing be mentioned if it was important? I think so. Let me just throw in this quote: Wisdom arises from practice; Without practice it is lost. Knowing these two ways of gain and loss, Conduct yourself so that wisdom grows. -Dhammapada 282 This is the only quote from the Buddha which states indirectly that wisdom isn't accumulated from lifetime to lifetime. It is only the practice of dhamma which will carry wisdom from life to life, without the practice the wisdom is lost (as in forever gone, not just supressed). Now, one thing that you have emphasized in this thread is the paramis and how the fact that wisdom is one of the paramis must mean it is accumulated. On the surface, this seems like a good argument, but when one examines the nature of the paramis much closer your argument isn't as convincing. Take for example this description of how long the paramis must be developed the bodhsatta to become a Buddha, from "A Treatise on the Paramis" by Acariya Dhammapala and translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "(xiv) HOW MUCH TIME IS REQUIRED TO ACCOMPLISH THEM? As a minimum, four incalculables (asankheyya) and a hundred thousand great aeons (mahakappa); as a middle figure, eight incalculables and a hundred thousand great aeons; and as a maximum, sixteen incalculables and a hundred thousand great aeons.31 This threefold division obtains by way of those in whom wisdom is predominant, those in whom faith is predominant, and those in whom energy is predominant, respectively. For those in whom wisdom is predominant, faith is weakest and wisdom keenest; for those in whom faith is predominant, wisdom is middling (and energy weakest); and for those in whom energy is predominant, wisdom is weakest (and faith middling). But supreme enlightenment must be achieved by the power of wisdom; so it is said in the commentary." http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/ParamisTreatise.html#top Now, wisdom isn't described here as something that is accumulated, it is described more as a character trait. If wisdom is accumulated than there wouldn't be bodhisattas with predominate wisdom, middling wisdom, and weakest wisdom, right? As for your quote from the Therigatha, Robert, I don't see it saying anything about wisdom being accumulated. It doesn't even mention wisdom. Metta, James 50111 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Question for K. Sujin (Re: Dhamma in Cambodia) buddhatrue Hi Nina, K. Sujin said: "Someone may guess about his temperament and he may believe that he should develop a particular object among the four Applications of Mindfulness. He hopes to obtain a result by this way of practice. However, this is not the right condition for knowing the truth of non-self of realities; it is not the way to know all realities thoroughly. Someone may select an object and fix his attention on that object since he believes that he has such or such temperament and that he should therefore develop this particular Application of Mindfulness. At that moment he neglects awareness of all the objects he is used to taking for self...." I do not agree. Sujin is directly contradicting the commentary to the Satipattha Sutta, and yet she doesn't provide any textual support. Does she think she knows better than the commentary? Why would she directly contradict the commentary? Ask her for me when you see her next- a simple and direct answer with no beating around the bush would be best. Metta, James 50112 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi again, James > > This was a really important point that you didn't pick up on, so > I'll post it again just in case you or others missed it. James: I'm assuming you want me to respond to this point. > > J > > I just look at what the Buddha taught and he recommended the > > > cultivation of metta- end of story. He didn't preface his > > teachings > > > with all kinds of warnings about unwholesome desires. > > > Ph > Haven't you read any suttas about the unwholesome roots of > greed, > > hated and delusion? I think there are hundreds of them. Do you > think > > Dhamma study is somehow immune to them by some sort of built in > > defilement-buster? James: Yes, I have read many suttas about the unwholesome roots of greed, hatred, and delusion. I'm not sure what my original comment has to do with dhamma study. I was talking about the cultivation of metta. Anyway, the Buddha taught that one is supposed to cultivate skillful mental qualities and abandon unskillful mental qualities. It is possible to do these two things or the Buddha wouldn't have taught them. You are saying in essence that unskillful mental qualities make it impossible to develop skillful mental qualities. You are contradicting the Buddha. I am simply advocating the development of metta meditation, which would fulfill the Buddha's teaching. > > I thought about this after, and thought that it is an important > point. People might believe that by the simple act of reading a > sutta they are protected against ignorance, that the suttas have > some sort of intrinsic, built-in wisdom, available to anyone who > reads it. I used to approach them in that way. But of course, if we > bring lobha (greed) and ignorance to a sutta, that is what we will > take away from it, often enough, only compounded now by wrong view, > because we know the words of the Buddha - anybody can understand and > memorize and quote the words - but with an understanding warped by > our own desires and shortcomings in the insight department. > > That is the danger in reading suttas with too much confidence. On > the other hand, our understanding can certainly develop from reading > suttas. Of course it can. There would be no hope if it couldn't. A > double-edged sword, or something like that. James: I would recommend you read the Panna Sutta and then you will know what is needed to develop understanding/wisdom I summarized it recently for Robert K: "Actually, the sutta is very straightforward: Find a teacher or respectable friend; learn the dhamma from this teacher/respectable friend and ask questions until all confusions are put aside; seclude oneself in body and mind; remain virtuous by following the precepts; study the dhamma until it is well understood and becomes a part of one's view; develop skillful mental qualities and abandon unskillful mental qualities; only speak about the dhamma or maintain noble silence, not idle chit-chat; and maintain mindfulness of the arising and passing away of the aggregates." You can read the original at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-002.html > > Phil Loving Kindness, James 50113 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Higher Trainings in Anapanasati buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Htoo - In para 247 of the Breathing Treatise the Arahant Sariputta stated that, through the Anapanasati bhavanaa, the three Higher trainings(sikkha) could be fostered as follows: 1. by adverting (aavajjanto sikkhati) 2. by knowing (jaananto sikkhati) 3. by seeing (passanto sikkhati) 4. by reviewing (paccavekkhanto sikkhati) 5. by steadying cognizance (cittam adhitthahanto sikkhati) 6. by resolving with faith (saddhaaya adhimuccanto sikkhati) 7. by exerting energy (viiriyam pagganhanto sikkhati) 8. by establishing mindfulness (satim upatthapento sikkhati) 9. by concentrating cognizance (cittam samaadahanto sikkhati) 10. by understanding with understanding (pannaaya pajaananto sikkhati) 11. by directly knowing what is to be directly known(abhinneyyam abhijaananto sikkhati) 12. by fully understanding what is to be fully understood (parinneyyam parijaananto sikkhati) 13. by abandoning what is to be abandoned (pahaatabbam pajahanto sikkhati) 14. by developing what is to be developed (bhaavetabbam bhaavento sikkhati) 15. by realizing what is to be realized (sacchikaatabbam sacchikaronto sikkhati) Nina: I would have liked to go deeper into the text, but I have lack of time. As I understand it, the three trainings refer to satipatthana. He can do nothing else but being aware of the nama or rupa that appears at the present moment. N: When there is samma-ditthi and samma-sati and the other path factors, there are actually these three trainings. N: The Co states that even though there is no virati cetasika during jhaana and vipassanaa, there is samvara, guarding. N: There is siilavisuddhi because there is guarding (rawang). Because of non-distraction is citta visuddhi. Because of seeing there is ditthi visuddhi. Tep: As shown in the above list the 15 dhammas that help foster the three Higher trainings are more than "being aware of the nama or rupa that appears at the present moment", which is the 8th item :'establishing mindfulness (satim upatthapento sikkhati)', I think. I agree with you that practicing according to the Eightfold path is developing sila, samadhi, and panna. However, item #11 (direct knowledge), #12 (full understanding - parinneyya), and #15 (realization - - sacchikata) seem to be beyond the 8 path factors, i.e. samma-nana and samma-vimutti. Don't you think so ? ================ Htoo: If someone perfects indriyasamvara siila it will become adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and not 'through discussions among Groups for understanding. How to do? Avoid, avoid, avoid. How to avoid? Stay away from what is bad. How to know that are bad? Study, study, study. How to study? Associate with the wise. This siila also leads to adhi-citta. If someone stays with indriyasamvara siila his mind is pure. On the ground of pure and stable mind pannaa has to be searched. Tep: Dear Htoo, your suggestion that indriya-samvara sila ('morality consisting of purity of restraint of the senses' -- Nyanatiloka Dictionary) is very good. A person who trains in the restraint of the senses fulfils the three kinds of good conduct that, in turn, fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness (according to the Kundaliya Sutta). Such indriya-samvara sila is probably the same as what Nina called "guarding", or 'rawang' in Thai. You said that " pannaa has to be searched ". I agree with you in the sense that you can search for panna from the above list of 15 items given by the great Arahant Sariputta. Thank you both very much for replying to my question in the Breathing Treatise post. Please advise me if my reply above is in error. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I would have liked to go deeper into the text, but I have lack of time. 50114 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:11am Subject: No Igor not eye of Newt. ksheri3 Hi Group, I guess it's that time when I, in my oh so predictable way, am at the stage of "mixing chemicals" for the brew, sortofspeak. As the song by Oingo Boingo said "it's a dead man's party. Who could ask for more. Everybody's comin' leave your body at the door." Such is the case when having to work with Dr. Caligari's Cabinet -- you know, things, skeletons in closet, things swept under the rug, slip thru the cracks, "covered up". A few days ago I had an enormous event of "illumination", "revelation", "realization", etc. It's taken a few days to put it all together and I've noticed certain verifiable aspects of the event that need recognition. Two Truths: Bhavaviveka, in analysing the Madhyamika, took it upon himself to RE- define or possibly RE-FINE the definition of the Two Truths held in this system. He subdivided the "paramarthasatya (so-called "highest truth" into two levels a) "the non-conceptual/non-convertible absoluteness (anabhisamskaraparamartha/aparyaya-paramarth) b) "conceptual/convertible absoluteness (abhisamskaraparamartha/paryayaparamartha)" The Madhyamika-Karika of Nargarjuna says: "The teaching of the doctirine by the Buddhas is based upon two truths: truth relating to worldly convention and truth in terms of ultimate fruit. Those who do not understand the distinction between these two truths do not understand the profound truth embodied in the Buddha's message. Without relying upon convention, the ultimate fruit is not taught. Without understanding the ultimate fruit, freedom is not attained. (MMK 24:8-10, tr. D.Kalupahana, Albany, 1986 pg. 331- 335) The concept of Emptiness, Sunyata, Shunyata, is a condition that must be achieved before one can experience Nirvana or Nibanna. The Jews spoke of the vessels, Sephirot, being filled with devine light and simply breaking up showering the world with "shards" of the vessels which I, in the here & now, am interpreting as "manifestations". Do not consider the implications of "conditioned things" and "non- conditioned things". The vacume state of "non-self" is where I'm at here. Take it as given that for there is a thing called "the devine", NO I AM NOT CALLING THIS THING A 'GOD' OR GOD, maybe this thing is karma or kamma. I am suggesting that for this thing I will call kamma, for lack of better terms, the more educated of the technical meanings, translations of the term may pull out their little pop guns and shoot the target down that I put out there like a carnival sideshow, exists out there in the cosmos and in our lives but from the point of view of "Ultimate Meaning" the Non-Convertible Absolutness, then, the kamma of "The Past", "The Present", and "The Future" are all one in the same and completely indistinguishable. This may parallel a system called "Sarvastivada" although I haven't had the time to research this system at all. I've also said in other sites that I consider, since my first Near- Death Experience (NDE) I have never been outside of or not in conversation with, this "god" or Kamma. It has and always has been/will be a presence with me, indistinguishable from me. I have been extensively reading/printing out the Dhammapada which I started last summer 2004, and I've been amazed at how this consciousness flows. There is direct relationship to the experiences I have had. Then I tried to read these huge scholarly papers I came into contact with and absolutely could not. There was a different consciousness required to read these papers. Two nites ago I began re- reading this paper on Bhavavikeka's Svatantra-anumana and Its Soteriological Implications -- got thru page 5 and had to stop to meditate on what I had read. Then, last nite pages 6 & 7 but was urked by the usage of the technical educational material I couldn't possibly obtain since they are the result of higher level courses in Logic. The main point is that there is, for myself, two different sets, modes, of consiousness: 1) where I can breeze through this historically written stuff and then 2) the stuff written in today's knowledge that almost attempts to exclude the people that this stuff was written for. I mean this in a hostile fashion since I am directly implicating the caste system or the system of stratification which still does, absolutely does, exist in today's society. toodles, colette 50115 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (Attn. Sarah, Jon, Nina)- I have just one important question to ask you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The Buddha said_ > > 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu > vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi saviitakka.m > savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pathama.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, > > vitakka vicaaraanam vupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso eko dibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti sukha.m dutiya.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, > > piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano, > sukhanca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti, ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti > ''upekkhako satimaa sukha vihaarii''ti, tatiya jaana.m upasampajja > viharati, sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, pubbeva somanassa domanssaana.m atthangamaa, adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi > catuttha.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati. > > Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-samaadhi.' > > All these are The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. > > Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? > > Katamo means 'what?' 'which?' and katamaa means 'what? for many' or 'which? for many'. Bhikkhave means 'O! Monk' and this is 'addressing to bhikkhu disciples'. > > Samma-samaadhi has two parts in it. Samma and samaadhi. > > Samma means 'right' 'well' 'proper' 'true' 'genuine' 'profitable' > 'good' etc etc. > > Samaadhi may come from 'sama' + 'adhi'. Adhi means 'great' 'higher' > 'superior' 'big' 'hugh' 'senior'. Sama means 'calmness' 'tranquility' > 'mental quietness'. Saman carati means 'to become quiet'. > > So sama or tranquility which has great degrees is called sama+ adhi > or samaadhi. Among samaadhi all those that are profitable, wholesome, good are called sammaa-samaadhi. > > Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. > The question can be seen above and it indicates that there are more > than one which are sammaa-samaadhi. > > The Buddha said 'what are sammaa-samaadhi?' and then answered this as above. The description says that there are many sammaa- samaadhi. > > 1. leaving sensuality and all unprofitable things one stays with > a)initial application, b)sustained application, c)joy, d) tranquility. > 2. one enters the first jhaana. > > 3. leaving initial application and sustained application one stays > with a)joy, and b) tranquility. > > 4. one enters the second jhaana. > > 5. leaving joy one just stays with tranquility (sukha-vihaarii or > staying with sukha or pleasantness). > > 6. one enters the third jhaana. > > 7. leaving tranquility one just stays equanimously (leaving dukkha, > sukha, domanassa, somanassa and just stays with equanimous feeling). > > 8. one enters the fourth jhaana. > > Then The Buddha said 'Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa- samaadhi'. > > Then The Buddha said 'These can be called, O! Monk, right > concentration'. > > Number 7 already includes all 4 aruupa jhaanas and their preliminary > mental states. That is they all just have 'equanimity'. > > So sammaa-samaadhi are many. > > All 4 ruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. > All 4 aruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. > All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before > all 4 ruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. > All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before > all 4 aruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. > > As this sutta is to general bhikkhu-sangha there is no details > regarding actual states of magga. > > As the topic is 'sammaa-samaadhi' all sammaa-samaadhis were preached. > When one is absorbed then there is no way to see any anicca or dukkha or anatta. > > Even when absorbed then one has to come out of jhaana and then does retrospection (paccavakkhana) and this retrospection leads to seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta and then when there is maturity magga naana arises along with magga citta. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any supporting will also be very helpful. =========================== The following is our dialogue that should be carefully read. Htoo: So sama or tranquility which has great degrees is called sama+ adhi or samaadhi. Among samaadhi all those that are profitable, wholesome, good are called sammaa-samaadhi. Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. Tep: You referenced the Pali for samma-samadhi that describes the 1st jhana through the 4th jhana. Because our great Teacher never taught miccha-samadhi, that is why he only gave one clear and consistent description of 'sama-samadhi'. There is only one version of samma-samadhi as far as I know it. Htoo: Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. The question can be seen above and it indicates that there are more than one which are sammaa-samaadhi. The Buddha said 'what are sammaa-samaadhi?' and then answered this as above. The description says that there are many sammaa-samaadhi. Tep: I don't follow you, dear Htoo. Where did you get the idea that "there are many samma-samadhi"? The following translations of samma-samadhi show that it is singular, not plural. I. Mahasatipatthana Sutta Translated by U Jotika & U Dhamminda "And what, bhikkhus, is Right Concentration? Here (in this teaching), bhikkhus, a bhikkhu being detached from sensual desire and unwholesome states attains and dwells in the first jhana which has vitakka and vicara; and rapture (piti) and sukha born of detachment (from the indrances). With the subsiding of vitakka and vicara, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the second jhana, with internal tranquility and one-pointedness of mind, without vitakka and vicara, but with rapture and sukha born of concentration. Being without rapture, a bhikkhu dwells in equanimity with mindfulness and clear understanding, and experiences sukha in mind and body. He attains and dwells in the third jhana; that which causes a person who attains it to be praised by the Noble Ones as one who has equanimity and mindfulness, one who abides in sukha. By becoming detached from both sukha and dukkha and by the previous cessation of gladness and mental pain, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the fourth jhana, a state of pure mindfulness born of equanimity. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Concentration". http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati18.htm II. Digha Nikaya 22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta. The Great Frames of Reference. Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html Sincerely, Tep ======= 50116 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Vism. XIV,191 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 192. (iv)-(v) The division into 'internal and external' is as already stated (par.73). Besides, it is internal in the sense of one's own75 that should be understood here as 'internal' and that of another person as 'external'. (vi)-(vii) 'Gross and subtle' are also as already stated (par.73). ----------------------------------- Note 75. Niyakajjhatta--'internally in the sense of one's own': four kinds of ajjhatta (internal, lit. 'belonging to oneself') are mentioned in the commentaries and subcommentaries (see DhsA. 46): gocarajjhatta--literally as range or resort (MA.iv,161; ii,90, 292), ajjhattajjhata--internally as such (Pm. 152), niyakajjhatta--internally in the sense of one's own (Ch. IV,141, X,114, this ref.; MA.iv,161), visayajjhatta--internally as objective field (MA.iv,160). 50117 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Vism.XIV,192 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 192. (iv)-(v) The division into 'internal and external' is as already stated (par.73). Besides, it is internal in the sense of one's own75 that should be understood here as 'internal' and that of another person as 'external'. (vi)-(vii) 'Gross and subtle' are also as already stated (par.73). ----------------------------------- Note 75. Niyakajjhatta--'internally in the sense of one's own': four kinds of ajjhatta (internal, lit. 'belonging to oneself') are mentioned in the commentaries and subcommentaries (see DhsA. 46): gocarajjhatta--literally as range or resort (MA.iv,161; ii,90, 292), ajjhattajjhata--internally as such (Pm. 152), niyakajjhatta--internally in the sense of one's own (Ch. IV,141, X,114, this ref.; MA.iv,161), visayajjhatta--internally as objective field (MA.iv,160). 50118 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi James > James: Yes, I have read many suttas about the unwholesome roots of > greed, hatred, and delusion. I'm not sure what my original comment > has to do with dhamma study. I was talking about the cultivation of > metta. My point was that approaching any sutta (whether it's related to cultivating metta, or satipatthana, or whatever) unaware that unwholesome cittas (often very subtle ones) are at work will lead to more akusala, and nothing but. Of course this "at work" is very momentary, so a single reading of a sutta, a single reading of a single word, will have moments of wholesome factors at work, and moments of unwholesome factors at work, countless moments of each. Nothing to do about that, but not being aware that it is going on leads to thinking that suttas are somehow so sacrosanct that they can be read and understood easily by virtue of having once been spoken by the Buddha. It is our own understanding that is at work when we read suttas, not the Buddha's understanding. Well, the Buddha's understanding is also at work, of course, but we have to remember that the two can't be compared, not yet. We do *not* gain access to the Buddha's understanding (or to the understanding of the noble ones) just by reading a sutta in which the Buddha's understanding is expressed. A door is opened, yes, but opening the door and attaining what lies inside are distant events. Anyway, the Buddha taught that one is supposed to cultivate > skillful mental qualities and abandon unskillful mental qualities. > It is possible to do these two things or the Buddha wouldn't have > taught them. You are saying in essence that unskillful mental > qualities make it impossible to develop skillful mental qualities. > You are contradicting the Buddha. I am simply advocating the > development of metta meditation, which would fulfill the Buddha's > teaching. See below. I say that of course, it is possible to develop understanding - the Buddha tells us so. "It is possible to eradicate the unwholesome, and develop the wholesome, it if weren't, I would not tell you to do so." Absolutely. But we have to have things in perspective. If we consume suttas (including the metta sutta) unaware that our ignorance and greed are at work, we will not go anywhere but deeper in ignorance. I think this is particularly important to remember in this day of easy "access to insight." Choose the right web site and the Buddha's teaching unrolls before your eyes. Go through the index, pick a sutta that matches your point of interest, or concern, and voila, there is the insight. We have to approach suttas with humility and a sense of awe, in my opinion. Yes, there are conditions for eventual insight when we read a sutta. But it is not a proximate condition. There is too much ignorance and greed at work. Of course, I'm talking about Phil. That's what I sense about Phil. There may be less of a mass of akusala at work for you and others. But I'm sure it's still there. That's the Buddha's teaching. I'll let you have the last word, if you'd like, and we can drop it there. Hi to Amr. Phil 50121 From: "seisen_au" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan seisen_au Hi Tep, All Some comments below. Tep wrote: > I think there are two main points I have made. > 1) There was an old jhana taught by non-Buddhist before the Buddha > discovered the jhana system that led to enlightenment. > 2) Prince Siddartha, after finishing with the last teacher (who taught him > arupa-jhana that led to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non- > perception), later on attained samma-samadhi (see MN 36) through the > 4 jhanas that are based on viveka and nekkhamma. But this 8th path > factor is well supported by the seven other factors (see MN 117). Thus > he clearly had entered the Stream and became an Ariyan. In the Brahmajala sutta one of the wrong views is a doctrine of Nibbana here and now based on the attainment of the 4 jhanas: `But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion- at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme nibbaba here and now. (Brahmajala sutta) St: The jhana factors described in the Brahmajala sutta are identical to the jhana factors attained by the Bodhisattva as he sat under the rose-apple tree and the Bodhi tree. They all have the same factors as Samma Samadhi in the Magga-Vibhanga Sutta: And what, monks, is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (Magga-vibhanga Sutta) It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there were recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most likely before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were attaining these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and now. Rgrds Steve 50122 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. gazita2002 dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > > N: The book can help understanding of what kusala as a perfection is. What > we hear sinks in and is beneficial as a condition for kusala later on. We do > not have to tire ourselves: what perfection is this, is this a perfection or > not, etc. Any kind of kusala without wanting any gain for ourselves and with > the aim to have less defilements can be a perfection. > I like it that Kh Sujin explains all the time that all the perfections are > developing together. The story of the ascetic Akitti is an example. I like > to see the connection between all the perfections. Not one should be > neglected, we need them all. > She also said that we may express confidence in kusala with words, but that > this is not enough. Confidence should be applied in deeds. > She also said that patience and viriya are needed for listening, because > sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us very much. > Nina. azita: when I discovered that patience was not necessarily kusala, that it may be viriya and may be akusala, I was surprised and relieved to learn that I was fooling myself in thinking my patience was kusala. Above you say sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us vey much. Do you mean in general conversation Nina, or do you mean in dhamma discussion? Maybe its the same thing, if one is not interested in either topic for discussion, one may need viriya to just sit and listen, without fidgeting, or 'spacing out' as I tend to do - a lot. My expression for this is EGO - eyes glaze over. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita 50123 From: "seisen_au" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 272- Wrong View/di.t.thi (h) seisen_au Hi, Below is a list of the 62 Wrong Views taken from B. Bodhis 'All- Embracing net of views', a translation of the Brahmajaala Sutta and its Commentaries. If you would like the pali for any of the particular views, just let me know. Ng Boon Huat wrote: > Hi there... Any one has the complete list of all the > 62 Wrong Views. I don't want to sound too accadamic > but I think my list is a few short. > > Appreciate if any one can share the complete list > together with pali and english. Summary of the Net of Views A. Speculations about the Past (18 views) 1. Eternalism (Sassatavaada) i. Based on recollection of up to 100,000 past lives ii. Based on recollection of up to ten aeons of world contraction and expansion iii. Based on recollection of up to forty such aeons iv. Based on reasoning 2. Partial-Eternalism (Ekaccasassatavaada) i. Theism ii. Polytheism held by beings who were gods corrupted by play iii. Polytheism held by beings who were gods corrupted by mind iv. Rationalist dualism of an impermanent body and an eternal mind 3. Extensionism (Antaanantavaada) i. View that the world is finite ii. View that the world is infinite iii. View that the world isfinite in vertical direction but infinite across iv. View that the world is neither finite nor infinite 4. Doctrines of Endless Equivocation (Amaraavikkhapavaada) i. Held by one fearful of making a false statement ii. Held by one fearful of clinging iii. Held by one fearful of being cross-examined iv. Held by one fearful of dull and stupid 5. Doctrines of Fortuitous Origination (Adhiccasamuppannavaada) i. Based on the recollection of the arising of perception after passing away from the plane of non-percipient beings ii. Based on reasoning B. Speculations about the Future (44 Views) 1. Doctrines of Percipient Immortality (Sa~n~niivaada): The self is immutable after death, percipient and: i. material ii. immaterial iii. both material and immaterial iv. neither material nor immaterial v. finite vi. infinite vii. both finite and infinite viii. neither finite nor infinite ix. of uniform perception x. of diversified perception xi. of limited perception xii. of boundless perception xiii. exclusively happy xiv. exclusively miserable xv. both happy and miserable xvi. neither happy nor miserable 2. Doctrines of non-percipient Immortality(As~n~niivaada) The self is immutable after death, non-percipient and: i. material ii. immaterial iii. both material and immaterial iv. neither material nor immaterial v. finite vi. infinite vii. both finite and infinite viii. neither finite nor infinite 3. Doctrines of Neither Percipient Nor Non-Percipient Immortality (N'evasa~n~niinaasa~n~niivaada) The self is immutable after death, neither percipient nor non- percipient and: i. material ii. immaterial iii. both material and immaterial iv. neither material nor immaterial v finite vi infinite vii. both finite and infinite viii. neither finite nor infinite 4. Annihilationism (Ucchedavaada) i. annihilationism of the self composed of the four elements ii. annihilationism of the divine, sense-sphere self iii. annihilationism of the divine, fine-material sphere self iv. annihilationism of the self belonging to the base of infinite space v. annihilationism of the self belonging to the base of infinite consciousness vi. annihilationism of the self belonging to the base of nothingness vii. annihilationism of the self belonging to the base of neither perception nor non-perception 5. Doctrines of Nibbana Here and Now (Di.t.thadhammanibbaanavaada) i. Nibbaana here and now in the enjoymeny of the five strands of sense pleasure ii. Nibbaana here and now in the first jhaana iii. Nibbaana here and now in the second jhaana iv. Nibbaana here and now in the third jhaana v. Nibbaana here and now in the forth jhaana Rgrds Steve 50124 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi James, > Wisdom arises from practice; > Without practice it is lost. > Knowing these two ways of gain and loss, > Conduct yourself so that wisdom grows. > -Dhammapada 282 > > This is the only quote from the Buddha which states indirectly that > wisdom isn't accumulated from lifetime to lifetime. It is only the > practice of dhamma which will carry wisdom from life to life, > without the practice the wisdom is lost (as in forever gone, not > just supressed). So wisdom can indeed be lost... Thanks, James. Regards, Swee Boon 50125 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:33pm Subject: Perfections : Introduction ( was [dsg] Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. philofillet Hi Nina and all I think I am hooked on this book and will be listening a lot so will be posting bits now and then. Today I heard this from the introduction : "We should develop each kind of kusala so that there are conditions for the arising of panna, which can eradicate all defilements stage by stage." This is an important point for me. I have been clinging to panna, longing for panna, seeing it more as "we should develop panna so that there are conditions for the arising of all kinds of kusala." And this is not wrong. I think there is a loop at work here. Develop panna to develop kusala to develop panna to develop kusala and so on and so on. Of course, panna is a kusala, but it leads the others, I still feel. (Still clinging.) > (from previous thread) N: The book can help understanding of what kusala as a perfection is. I heard this: "Kusala is not always a perfection. Thus, it is becessary to understand when kusala is a perfection and when it is not." I don't know this answer yet, but will discover it for myself (or not) by listening and reflecting. > (Nina from previous thread) What we hear sinks in and is beneficial as a condition for kusala later on. We do > not have to tire ourselves: what perfection is this, is this a perfection or > not, etc. I was a bit surprised to hear this: "It is beneficial carefully to study the ten perections, so that we can consider and investigate for ourselves which perfctions have not been sufficiently accumulated." I see danger here, such as with intentional trying to balance the indriyas. "Well, I have a lot of faith but not enough wisdom, so I should develop wisdom." The danger of self at work trying to balance things, control things. However, later in the introdutcion, A. Sujin points out that the perfections are the opposite of lobha "The ten perfections have lobha as their opposite and therefore we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala." This is what Nina says below: > Any kind of kusala without wanting any gain for ourselves and with > the aim to have less defilements can be a perfection. But it is hard not to want to have gain for ourselves. Safe to say that we *will* want to have gain for ourselves, for we are not sotapanna. But we can be aware that this is going on, and that it is natural enough. Really enjoying listening to this. Thanks again, Lodewijk! Phil 50126 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 274- Wrong View/di.t.thi (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] There is wrong view with regard to nåmas such as seeing, hearing or thinking, and also with regard to rúpas, such as hardness or visible object. One may take a nåma such as seeing for self, and one may also take visible object for a person or a thing which exists. When we take things for self we do not see them as elements which can, one at a time, be experienced through the appropriate doorway. Visible object is only a kind of rúpa which can be experienced through the eyesense, it is not a person or a thing, it falls away again. Sound is only a kind of rúpa which can be experienced through the earsense, it is not a person or a thing. Each citta which arises experiences one object at a time through the appropriate doorway and then falls away, it is quite different from the preceding citta. Seeing only sees, it does not hear, it does not think. We read in the Book of Analysis (Chapter 16, Analysis of Knowledge, §763): * " “Do not experience each other’s object” means: Ear-consciousness does not experience the object of eye-consciousness; eyeconsciousness does not experience the object of ear-consciousness either. Nose-consciousness does not experience the object of eye-consciousness; eye-consciousness does not experience the object of nose-consciousness either. Tongue-consciousness does not experience the object of eye-consciousness; eye-consciousness does not experience the object of tongue-consciousness either. Bodyconsciousness does not experience the object of eye-consciousness; eye-consciousness does not experience the object of bodyconsciousness either…" ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50127 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Hi Steve, Nina & all, Steve, thank you for the additional textual references which we interpret a little differently, though I fully appreciate why you interpret them as you do. --- seisen_au wrote: > St: My understanding at this time is that all mundane aggregates are > subject to, and within the domain of clinging and the asavaa, whether > they are clung to or not. ..... S: I understand you to be saying in conclusion that all khandhas are upadana khandhas (with the exception of the lokuttara cittas) at any time, regardless of whether there is any clinging occurring. Without picking up every detail and the quotes you raise for now, I’d like to just say that I used to read all the references in this way too, but was not satisfied because I used to wonder why the emphasis on the distinction between khandhas and upadana khandhas was made if the terms were synonymous apart from the exclusion of lokuttara cittas in the latter. Yours is also the explanation I’ve seen all teachers give apart from A.Sujin, so you are in plenty of good company. When A.Sujin pointed out to me that upadana khandha refers to only the khandha which is the object of clinging now, many aspects of these texts seemed clearer and her explanations made a lot of good sense. Of course, I can’t do them justice, but by chance, I happened to hear the same explanation the other day on tape in a discussion with Rob K, Mike and other Thai friends. So let me summarise a little more here for your further reflection, though I don’t think I’m adding any new points to my other notes I gave: A question is asked (by Rob K) about why the pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa are given in the description of the 1st Noble Truth, rather than pa~ncakkhandhaa A. Sujin asks about the khandha which is not the object of upadana. She adds that ‘it’s very simple’, because it’s arising and falling away, but not as an object of upadana. Now, all khandhas rise and fall away, but they’re not all the object of upadana, only one object ever is. So when there is a moment of realization of the rising and falling away of an object,( i.e a nama or a rupa), it must be of one which is commonly the object of upadana. There is a question by a Thai friend about the lokuttara citta which is not included in upadana khandha. A.Sujin stresses that not only lokuttara citta, but any khandha which is not the object of upadana is only included in khandha. ‘Any, any, any’ dhamma which is not the object of upadana now is only included in khandha. [She refers to the Sammohavinodani]. There’s a question again about the difference between khandha and upadana khandha and again the comment that the difference depends on whether it is the object of upadana or not at this moment. Now there are 5 khandhas rising and falling away and the ones which are not object of upadana are panca khandha. The one which is the object of upadana is upadana khandha. She asks: “How can the panca khandha which are not the object of clinging be upadana khandha?’ Khandha means the reality which arises and falls away in the past, present or future. This is the meaning of khandha, but the one which is the object of upadana is upadana khandha, the object of clinging. Mike repeats and questions that upadana khandha only refers to the object for the moment upadana is arising. A.Sujin again asks how if there is no upadana we can say that the khandha is the object of upadana. At the end, she says: ‘Don’t think too much, it’s very simple; just upadana, khandha and then upadana khandha’. Later she also discusses here about the two meanings of upadana khandha I referred to: a) rupa conditioned by clinging, i.e. kammaja rupa, and b) objects of clinging discussed here. As I mentioned, everyone will be able to listen to this and other discussions very soon. I hope this further elaboration clarifies some of the textual passages you both refer to. I’ll check if there are any which don’t seem covered in Steve’s posts – but of course you both can follow the subtlety of the Pali phrasing a lot better than I can! This topic and the passages in question are very much about the development of vipassana in daily life as I see them. Metta, Sarah ======= 50128 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Hi Steve, A little more from your posts acc. to my very limited understanding to see if I've missed anything. Lots of snipping - apologies, but I know you'll follow. --- seisen_au wrote: > St: Yes. Aggregates (as objects) of clinging, being all aggregates > that fall within the domain of asavaa and clinging. Aggregates that > are capable of being objects of the asavaa and clinging. ... S: OK ... > St: My understanding is `which are the objects of asavaa' because > they are capable of being clung to. > ---- .. S: I understand, objects of asavas only when the asavas in question arise. We had this in the Vism earlier and I remember asking K.Sujin about it. For example, kusala cittas - I believe she said that after the kusala has fallen away, it can be the object of the asavas. This is the meaning, I understand. .... > St: I would think that all mundane aggregates are within the domain > of clinging. The only dhammas that are not within the domain of > clinging are lokuttara dhammas. ... S: As discussed, within the domain when gocara of domain/object only. .... > > Dhammasangani p574 > > What are the dhammaa that are mundane? > There are objects of asavas which are meritorious, demeritious and > neither-meritorious-nor-demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, > the fine material sphere and the non-material sphere which are the > aggregate of corporeality…p…the aggregate of consciousness. > > St: There seems to be no category for mundane dhammaa that are not > sasavaa. If there were you would expect them to be listed under > the `dhammaa that are not objects of clinging or asavaa' but they > aren't, only lokuttara dhammaa are. .... S: As discussed. I believe sasavaa only when objects. ..... > St:Again I think the mundane khandhas of the arahant are within the > domain of clinging and are capable of being clung to, whether they > are being clung to or not. ... S: As discussed .... > > Dispeller p.34 > Now while there is feeling and so on, both free from cankers and > subject to cankers, not so materiality. > > St: It seems that all rupaa are saasava (subject to cankers) whether > they are being clung to or not. ... S: Any rupa can be the object of sasavaa ... > > St: All other dhammaa are always capable of being clung to, therefore > are all upadanakhandhaa ... S: when clung to ... > >From the commentary note which B.Bodhi quotes on p.1059 of SN: > > >"Spk:...'With taints (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for > >the > >taints by way of object; so too `that can be clung to (upaadaaniya) > >means > >what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its > >object]. ... S: This is the important point -- only when it becomes a condition for the taints by way of being their object and only when clung to becomes upadana khandha. ..... > St: I would think that in an ultimate sense, all conditioned dhammas > are dukkha, as they are oppressed by rise and fall(sankhara dukkha). ... S: Yes ... > > Would you say that all khandhaa that are not clung to, or attended to > by asavas at the moment of arising are anaasavaa anupaadaaniya > (untainted and not subject to clinging)? ... S: Yes...are not the objects of the asavas or clinging at that moment ... > St: My understanding at this time is that all mundane aggregates are > subject to, and within the domain of clinging and the asavaa, whether > they are clung to or not. > > Thanks Sarah for the opportunity to discuss these issues. ... S: It's a pleasure....I always learn a lot from your very careful considerations of the texts. Metta, Sarah ======= 50129 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas sarahprocter... Hi Steve!!, --- seisen_au wrote: > In the Vibhanga p.85 it states that: > > "(The five aggregates)sometimes are grasped(upaadinnaa); sometimes > not grasped (anupaadinnaa)." ... S: Yes ... > > But when it comes to upaadaaniyaa (object of the attachments)it has: > > "The aggregate of material quality is the object of the attachments. > Four aggregates are sometimes the objects of the attachments; > sometimes not objects of attachments." ... S: Yes, I think this means all rupas can be the object of attachment (upaadaaniyaa), not so the other khandhas (because they inc lokuttara cittas and cetasikas). When any of them are the object of attachment (upadana), then they are upadana khandha. > > St: I believe that if upaadaaiyaa meant `objects of the attachments > only when clung to', there would be something like> materiality > aggregate is sometimes the object of attachment; sometimes not. ... S: Ok, I think this is the difference between upaadaaniyaa and upadana kh. it would be interesting to go through the Pali w/transl of vibh transl p85- difficult for me. ... > "Effects grasped and favourable to grasping' (upaadinnupaadaaniyaa) > is a > name given to material and mental states born of kamma attended by the > `intoxicants' (aasava's). In this way, but in the negative sense, the > meaning of the remaining two terms should be understood." > > St: `material and mental states born of kamma which was attendend by > the intoxicants'< This sounds to me to be describing the > cause/condition for the arising of dhammas that are > upaadinnupaadaaniyaa. I'm not sure on this point. ... S: namas and rupas conditioned by kamma which can be objects of grasping I think. Remember the 2nd meaning of upadana kh referring to rupas conditioned by kamma (and vipaka cittas?) which are subject to clinging. How are we doing? Thanks for your patience as I reflect and stumble 'out loud'. Metta, Sarah p.s apologies to others -- I'm behind on many threads. ======================== 50130 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) sarahprocter... Hi Mike & Dan, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > Interesting point! Though to me, this just suggests how very common the > > temporary suppression of the defilements is, even for us > puthujjanas--and > thus what a grave error to mistake it for the path. > > I suppose that the meaning of 'self-overestimation' in this context may > refer to something other than what the expression might ordinarily > connote--but what do I know? ... S: I understood it (rightly or wrongly) to refer to that particular kind of self-overestimation only (with regards to the insight attained). Ignorant worldlings who have not considered the teachings or developed any insight would have no reason for having any idea that self-view and other wrong views had been eradicated. Of course there can be many other kinds of unwholesome overestimation... Any further ideas? Metta, Sarah ======= 50131 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 545 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma; namely a)kusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment- wisdom, and d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. Nibbana is not a khandhaa. Nibbana is not an aggregate. Only naama and ruupa are aggregates or khandhaa. Khandhaa means 'bulk' 'mass' 'body' 'trunk' 'the body of -- ' 'a collection of -- ' 'mass of -- ' 'parts of -- ' 'aggregates in a collective sense'. These 5 khandhas are 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials This is aggregates of materials. That is dhamma that have the quality of materials or matters or non-consciousness things. All of these are material phenomena. Phenomena are facts of events that are observable through senses. So ruupa-kkhandhaas are aggregates of materials that can be observed by senses. Examples are 'ruupa' or 'vanna' or 'colour', form, shape etc can be observed by mind through eyes. So these visual objects are 'ruupa ruupa-kkhandhaa'. Sounds or sadda can be observed by mind through ears. All auditory objects that are sounds are all ruupa-kkhandhaa. They are 'sadda ruupa-kkhandhaa'. Likewise smell or gandha can be sensed by the mind through the nose. So that aggregates of smell is also material aggregates or ruupa-kkhandhaa and they are 'gandha ruupa-kkhandhaa'. Tastes or rasa can be observed by the mind through the tongue. So they are also material aggregates. They are 'rasa ruupa-kkhandhaa'. Touches or photthabbaa can be observed by the mind through the body (of any parts where there are sense organs to perceive touches of various kinds). These touches are also material aggregates and they are called 'photthabbaa ruupa-kkhandhaa'. So there are 'ruupa' or 'form/shape', sadda or sound, gandha or smell, rasa or taste, photthabbaa or touches (pathavii or hardness, tejo or temperature, vayo or pressure) and they are all ruupa- kkhandhaa. Again these phenomena are sensed by the mind through separate material phenomena called pasaada ruupa or sense-sensitivity. They are cakkhu-ppasaada or eye-sensitivity, sota-ppasaada or ear- sensitivity, ghana-ppasaada or nose-sensitivity, jivha-ppasaada or tongue-sensitivity, and kaya-ppasaada or body-sensitivity. These are not mental phenomena or these are not consciousness or parts of consciousness. They all are material phenomena and they are ruupa-kkhandhaa or material aggregates. Still there are other phenomena that are not consciousness and they are also ruupa-kkhandhaa. They are ruupa dhamma and they are not naama dhamma. They are 16 subtle materials or 16 sukhuma ruupa. They are also material aggregates or ruupa-kkhandhaa. Example are apo or cohesion or fluidity or flowiness, hadaya ruupa or hadaya vatthu or heart-base, ahara ruupa or oja or nutriment and many others. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50132 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth sarahprocter... Hi Larry (& Howard), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Howard: "It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no > control." So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? > ;-))" ... S: this sounds dangerously close to a kind of wrong view, the same as why develop wholesome states or perform kusala kamma at all. .... > L:> Hi Howard, > > I agree with your basic thesis, moderation in all things, but remorse is > actually a cetasika, an ultimate reality. There is no me and no you but > pain is real and it was conditioned by this body of accumulations and > tendencies. Technically speaking, remorse can't arise with self view. ... S: Right, remorse or regret or dosa of any kind can't arise with self view. Does a such a reflection or an apology have to be with remorse? Doesn't it just depend on the citta at the time as we've been discussing? Can't there be kind wishes for the other's welfare? Metta, Sarah ======= 50133 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:56pm Subject: The Highway to Nibbana ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Mind and Matter: Only a Process of Momentary Arising & Ceasing ! As arising occurs the mind notices it, therefore do the emerged object and the mind coincide! As ceasing occurs the mind also notices it, and thus the object and the mind coincide! In all perception, at each event of noting, there is always this twin pair, the object & the mind, which knows the object. These two elements of the object and the knowing mind always arise in pairs, and apart from these two, there does not exist any other thing in the form of a 'person', an 'observer', an 'experiencer' nor any 'Ego', 'Subject' nor any 'Self'! This reality of impersonality will be intuitively realized in due course. The fact that materiality and mentality are two distinct phenomena, will be clearly perceived during the time of noting "arising, arising & ceasing, ceasing". The two elements of materiality and mentality are linked up in pairs and their arising coincides, that is, the process of materiality arises together with the process of mentality, which knows it. The process of materiality when ceasing, fades away together with the process of mentality, which experiences it. It is the same for lifting, moving and placing the foot or hand: being physical or material processes of arising & ceasing, starting and ending, together with the mental processes which induce & know them. This subtle knowledge is called the discriminating knowledge of mentality-materiality. It is a preliminary stage on the long path of insight knowledge. It is important to have this preliminary stage understood in an accurate way! Continuing the praxis of reflecting & noting for some time, there will be considerable progress in the quality & alertness of both awareness and concentration. It will then be detectable that on every occasion of noting, each process of mentality & materiality, arises and passes away, exactly at that very moment! It all ends instantly, right there and then. However, uninstructed people often believes that forms, the body & the mind remains the same, in a permanent stable state, throughout life, so the same body of childhood has grown up into adulthood, and that the same young mind has grown up into maturity, and finally that both this continuously changing body & this continuously changing mind are one and the same person at all times... In reality, this is not so. Nothing is permanent! Everything comes into a temporary existence for a moment & then passes instantly away! Nothing can remain even for the blink of an eye... Changes are taking place very swiftly and they will be clearly perceived & recognized after due training. While carrying on the contemplation by noting: "arising arising, ceasing ceasing", one will perceive that these processes arise & fade away one after another in ultra quick succession. On perceiving that everything passes away at the very point of noting it, the yogi knows directly & sees directly, that nothing is permanent! This knowledge regarding the impermanent nature of all phenomena is knowledge of impermanence! The yogi then knows that this ever-changing state of things, is distressing and is not to be desired. Not something pleasant or pleasing. Neither something agreeable nor satisfying. This is the reflective knowledge of suffering. On suffering many painful feelings, this body and mind complex is recognized as a mere accumulation of suffering. This is also the reflective knowledge of suffering. It is then observed, that these elements of impersonal materiality & mentality, whether internal or external, never follow one's wish, but arise and cease according to their given nature, circumstances and conditioning. While being engaged in the act of noting these processes, the yogi understands, that these processes are not controllable and that they are neither a 'person', a 'me', an 'I', an 'Ego', nor a 'living entity' nor any 'self'. This is reaching the reflective knowledge of non-self. When a yogi has completely developed the knowledge of impermanence, suffering & non-self, he will realize the state called Nibbana... From time immemorial, Buddhas, Arahats and The Noble Ariyas have realized this Nibbana by this very same method of insight: Seeing any body as merely a changing form, noting any feeling as merely a transient reaction, knowing any mentality to be just a passing mood, and by realizing that any phenomena simply is a momentary mental state! This, only this, in itself, is the highway leading to Nibbana...!!! Vipassana Insight in Detail: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel370.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50134 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:10am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing Dear Tep, As I anticipated there arises a good question. Because it reaches the area of 'hot spot'. This will ever be hot. Because not all parties obtain jhaana and this is the chief reason why argumentations arise. Agreeing and disagreeing is personal preference. Katamo means 'what for a noun in singular number'. Katamaa means 'what for a noun in plural number'. If pin-point samma-samaadhi is just one. It is ekaggataa cetasika. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo (Attn. Sarah, Jon, Nina)- > > I have just one important question to ask you. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > The Buddha said_ > > > > 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu > > vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi saviitakka.m > > savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pathama.m jaana.m > upasampajja viharati, > > > > vitakka vicaaraanam vupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m > cetaso eko dibhaava.m avitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti > sukha.m dutiya.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati, > > > > piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano, > > sukhanca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti, ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti > > ''upekkhako satimaa sukha vihaarii''ti, tatiya jaana.m upasampajja > > viharati, sukhassa ca pahaanaa, dukkhassa ca pahaanaa, > pubbeva somanassa domanssaana.m atthangamaa, > adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasatipaarisuddhi > > catuttha.m jaana.m upasampajja viharati. > > > > Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave samma-samaadhi.' > > > > All these are The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. > > > > Katamaa ca bhikkhave samma-samaadhi? > > > > Katamo means 'what?' 'which?' and katamaa means 'what? for many' > or 'which? for many'. Bhikkhave means 'O! Monk' and this > is 'addressing to bhikkhu disciples'. > > > > Samma-samaadhi has two parts in it. Samma and samaadhi. > > > > Samma means 'right' 'well' 'proper' 'true' 'genuine' 'profitable' > > 'good' etc etc. > > > > Samaadhi may come from 'sama' + 'adhi'. Adhi means 'great' 'higher' > > 'superior' 'big' 'hugh' 'senior'. Sama means 'calmness' 'tranquility' > > 'mental quietness'. Saman carati means 'to become quiet'. > > > > So sama or tranquility which has great degrees is called sama+ adhi > > or samaadhi. Among samaadhi all those that are profitable, > wholesome, good are called sammaa-samaadhi. > > > > Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth > of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. > > The question can be seen above and it indicates that there are more > > than one which are sammaa-samaadhi. > > > > The Buddha said 'what are sammaa-samaadhi?' and then answered > this as above. The description says that there are many sammaa- > samaadhi. > > > > 1. leaving sensuality and all unprofitable things one stays with > > a)initial application, b)sustained application, c)joy, d) tranquility. > > 2. one enters the first jhaana. > > > > 3. leaving initial application and sustained application one stays > > with a)joy, and b) tranquility. > > > > 4. one enters the second jhaana. > > > > 5. leaving joy one just stays with tranquility (sukha-vihaarii or > > staying with sukha or pleasantness). > > > > 6. one enters the third jhaana. > > > > 7. leaving tranquility one just stays equanimously (leaving dukkha, > > sukha, domanassa, somanassa and just stays with equanimous > feeling). > > > > 8. one enters the fourth jhaana. > > > > Then The Buddha said 'Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa- > samaadhi'. > > > > Then The Buddha said 'These can be called, O! Monk, right > > concentration'. > > > > Number 7 already includes all 4 aruupa jhaanas and their preliminary > > mental states. That is they all just have 'equanimity'. > > > > So sammaa-samaadhi are many. > > > > All 4 ruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. > > All 4 aruupa jhaanas are samma-samaadhi. > > All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before > > all 4 ruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. > > All preliminary mental states that have not been absorbed just before > > all 4 aruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi. > > > > As this sutta is to general bhikkhu-sangha there is no details > > regarding actual states of magga. > > > > As the topic is 'sammaa-samaadhi' all sammaa-samaadhis were > preached. > > When one is absorbed then there is no way to see any anicca or > dukkha or anatta. > > > > Even when absorbed then one has to come out of jhaana and then > does retrospection (paccavakkhana) and this retrospection leads to > seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta and then when there is maturity magga > naana arises along with magga citta. > > > > May you all be free from suffering. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If > there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of > these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any > supporting will also be very helpful. > > =========================== > > The following is our dialogue that should be carefully read. > > Htoo: So sama or tranquility which has great degrees is called sama+ > adhi or samaadhi. Among samaadhi all those that are profitable, > wholesome, good are called sammaa-samaadhi. Again The Buddha > here was talking on magga sacca or Noble Truth of Path. And asked > and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. > > Tep: You referenced the Pali for samma-samadhi that describes the > 1st jhana through the 4th jhana. Because our great Teacher never > taught miccha-samadhi, that is why he only gave one clear and > consistent description of 'sama-samadhi'. There is only one version of > samma-samadhi as far as I know it. > > Htoo: Again The Buddha here was talking on magga sacca or Noble > Truth of Path. And asked and answered what sammaa-samaadhi are. > The question can be seen above and it indicates that there are more > than one which are sammaa-samaadhi. The Buddha said 'what are > sammaa-samaadhi?' and then answered this as above. The > description says that there are many sammaa-samaadhi. > > Tep: I don't follow you, dear Htoo. Where did you get the idea > that "there are many samma-samadhi"? The following translations of > samma-samadhi show that it is singular, not plural. called Right Concentration. ...This is called right concentration> > > > I. Mahasatipatthana Sutta Translated by U Jotika & U Dhamminda > > "And what, bhikkhus, is Right Concentration? Here (in this teaching), > bhikkhus, a bhikkhu being detached from sensual desire and > unwholesome states attains and dwells in the first jhana which has > vitakka and vicara; and rapture (piti) and sukha born of detachment > (from the indrances). With the subsiding of vitakka and vicara, a > bhikkhu attains and dwells in the second jhana, with internal tranquility > and one-pointedness of mind, without vitakka and vicara, but with > rapture and sukha born of concentration. Being without rapture, a > bhikkhu dwells in equanimity with mindfulness and clear understanding, > and experiences sukha in mind and body. He attains and dwells in the > third jhana; that which causes a person who attains it to be praised by > the Noble Ones as one who has equanimity and mindfulness, one who > abides in sukha. By becoming detached from both sukha and dukkha > and by the previous cessation of gladness and mental pain, a bhikkhu > attains and dwells in the fourth jhana, a state of pure mindfulness born > of equanimity. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Concentration". > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati18.htm > > > II. Digha Nikaya 22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta. The Great Frames of > Reference. Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk ? > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities ?enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born > from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With > the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the > second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of > awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ?internal > assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful > & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the > third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, > he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & > pain ?as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress ?he > enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration". > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html > > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ======= 50135 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 546 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma; namely a)kusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment- wisdom, and d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling When feelings are specifically directed the mind can see them properly or the mind can perceive them or understand them. The mind itself always has a feeling. Oxford English Dictionary says consciousness also comprises feeling. The mind is made up of serially arising consciousness. No consciousness is static including jhaana cittas or absorptive mind. What happen in mind is that there arises a citta, it lives, and then immediately passes away. This is followed by another citta or consciousness uninterruptedly and the same happens to each and every serially arising consciousness. At the time when these consciousness or cittas arise there also arises a feeling. Feeling is a permanent component of the mind even though it only lasts a moment like its associated consciousness, who just lasts only a moment. These feelings are feeling aggregates or vedana-kkhandhaa. Feelings are 1) sukha vedana (pleasant feeling) 2) dukkha vedana(unpleasant feeling) 3) adukkamasukha vedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant). These feeling may be related with sensuous matters. Examples are when one is happy with touching something agreeable or tasting some food agreeable or smelling some odour agreeable or hearing some sound agreeable or seeing something agreeable all these feeling of happiness is related to sensuous matters and they are all sensuous feeling. The same applies to unpleasant feeling and neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. These feeling may well be not related to sensuous matters. Examples are when one is happy with attainment of jhaana or magga it is not related to sensuous matters. Again when one is distressed with non- attainment of jhaana or magga this unpleasant feeling is not related to sensuous matters. The same applies to neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling or upekkhaa, which is experienced when 4th ruupa jhaana or aruupa jhaana are attained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50136 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:33am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: >... > "Actually, the sutta is very straightforward: Find a teacher or > respectable friend; learn the dhamma from this teacher/respectable > friend and ask questions until all confusions are put aside; seclude > oneself in body and mind; remain virtuous by following the precepts; > study the dhamma until it is well understood and becomes a part of > one's view; develop skillful mental qualities and abandon unskillful > mental qualities; only speak about the dhamma or maintain noble > silence, not idle chit-chat; and maintain mindfulness of the arising > and passing away of the aggregates." > > You can read the original at this link: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-002.html > > Loving Kindness, > James Dear James, Phil and Herman, I like the way you abstract the Panna Sutta and I like the positive way of bringing the Teaching of the Buddha. Many buddhistic texts (including DSG-messages) are negative, are sermons: avoid the negative, avoud the negative, otherwise … Even the three 'right speech', ' right action' and 'right livelihood' got sometimes the negative header 'the abstinences'. And metta, one of your (and my) favorites has in the Abhidhamma-system the name 'non- hatred'. It must be a cultural difference, I think most (modern) westerners prefer the positive formules: they are doing their liberating work better than the negative one, based on anxiety. Thanks for your abstracting this Sutta. I dedicate this message to Herman, I think he is still lurking DSG: how are you pal? Metta Joop 50137 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:05am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing Tep wrote: I. Mahasatipatthana Sutta Translated by U Jotika & U Dhamminda "And what, bhikkhus, is Right Concentration? Here (in this teaching), bhikkhus, a bhikkhu being detached from sensual desire and unwholesome states attains and dwells in the first jhana which has vitakka and vicara; and rapture (piti) and sukha born of detachment from the indrances). With the subsiding of vitakka and vicara, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the second jhana, with internal tranquility and one- pointedness of mind, without vitakka and vicara, but with rapture and sukha born of concentration. Being without rapture, a bhikkhu dwells in equanimity with mindfulness and clear understanding, and experiences sukha in mind and body. He attains and dwells in the third jhana; that which causes a person who attains it to be praised by the Noble Ones as one who has equanimity and mindfulness, one who abides in sukha. By becoming detached from both sukha and dukkha and by the previous cessation of gladness and mental pain, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the fourth jhana, a state of pure mindfulness born of equanimity. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Concentration". http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati18.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, the context already says that there are many. They are 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana and so on. These are translation. I posted the original. The Buddha said, 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi?' Not 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi'. I have already explained this in the previous reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep quote: II. Digha Nikaya 22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta. The Great Frames of Reference. Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities ?enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ? internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ?as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress ?he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, personal belief is up to you. In both translation there describe many. 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana etc. You can say that sammaa-samaadhi is just one. If this is the case it is ekaggataa cetasika and it is right to say that there is only one. 1. with 5 jhaana factors, still not absorbed 2. with 5 jhaana factors, being absorbed 3. with 5 jhaana factors, no more absorbed 4. with 3 jhaana factors, still not absorbed 5. with 3 jhaana factors, being absorbed 6. with 3 jhaana factors, no more absorbed 7. with 2 jhaana factors, still not absorbed 8. with 2 jhaana factors, being absorbed 9. with 2 jhaana factors, no more absorbed 10.with 2 jhaana facots (feeling being equanimous), still not absorbed 11.with 2 jhaana factors(feeling being equanimous), being absorbed 12.with 2 jhaana factors(feeling being equanimous), no more absorbed 2 is 1st ruupa jhaana. 5 is 2nd ruupa jhaana. 8 is 3rd ruupa jhaana. 11 is 4th ruupa jhaana. All 4 aruupa jhaanas are also 11. Because they are all absorbed and there are only 2 jhaana factors of equanimous feeling and one-pointedness or ekaggataa. 10 may well be just before all 4 aruupa jhaanas. 12 may well be just after exit from all 4 aruupa jhaanas. The namewise all 4 ruupa jhaanas and all 4 aruupa jhaanas are sammaa- samaadhi. But when in absorption there is no reason to see any nibbana or any lokuttaraa dhamma. One samaadhi is well attained then one has to exit from jhaana and does retrospection on jhaana and see anicca, dukkha, anatta and attain magga naanas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50138 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:20am Subject: Mastery in jhaana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, For mastery in jhaana one has to know all about jhaana. To know all about jhaana one has to know all about consciousness. That is which is good and which is bad. Only when good and bad are known and there is experience to these there might arise good things because experience conditions them to arise. What is jhaana? Jhaana is a state of mind associated with jhaana-born ruupas. That state of mind again is associated with many factors that dwell at mind which is the centre of all consciousness. In a good mind there are many good factors. Among them are 5 jhaana factors. These are just names and they only become jhaana factors when there are conditions such as stillness and tranquility of mind. The very first stage is called 1st jhaana. It is ruupa jhaana. It is composed of 1. initial application (vitakka) 2. sustained application (vicaara) 3. rapture (piiti) 4. tranquility (sukha) 5. one-pointedness (ekaggata) For these 5 factors to become jhaana factors, there are conditions. Vitakka has not to be sensuous one and all other have not to be sensuous ones. So one has to stay away from sensuality. Vitakka has not to be disturbed or aversive one. Vicaara has not to be aversive one and one-pointedness has not to be aversive one. In summary there have not to be exist 5 obstructions. They are 1. sensuous thoughts 2. aversive thoughts 3. sloth-torpored thoughts 4. wandering-worrying thoughts 5. suspicious thoughts. Thoughts here mean mental activities. They have not to be sensuous, aversive, slothed, torpored, wandering, upset, restless, worrying, suspicious. When these 5 are cleared asnd there are 5 jhaana factors well working then 1st jhaana is ready to arise. As soon as 1st jhaana arises as absorption there shut down all sensuous door. So when in 1st jhaana of absorption there is no hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, seeing, and mental activities is not at anywhere except at the object of meditation, which is a sign. As soon as one regain consciousness to current senses then one has to retrospect what happened when in absorption. This help further developing of proficiency in mastery in jhaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50139 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 547 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma; namely a)kusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment- wisdom, and d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling Feelings are 1) sukha vedana (pleasant feeling) 2) dukkha vedana(unpleasant feeling) 3) adukkamasukha vedana (neither pleasant nor unpleasant) according to 'anubhavana' analysis. Or feelings are 1) sukha vedana (physical pleasure) 2) dukkha vedana(physical displeasure) 3) domanassa vedana(mental displeasure) 4) somanassa vedana(mental pleasure) 5) upekkhaa vedana (neither pleasure nor displeasure or equanious feeling) according to 'indriya' or 'faculty' analysis. All these are feeling aggregates or vedana-kkhandhaa. According to indriya or faculty there are 5 feeling. Everyone knows what physical displeasure is like. They are physical pains or feelings at the body that are not agreeable. Pains here is just used for disagreeable physical feelings. Example is heat is not pain initially. But it cause physical displeasure. There are many physical pleasures and people are following all these with the hope that they enjoy their life when they are living in this world on this earth and when they are in their current life. There are many mental displeasures or mental pains or domanassa vedana. Almost all people experience such feelings of someone or something loss in their life. Examples are death or parents, death of brothers or sisters, death of relatives, death of friends, loss of properties, loss of fame, loss of dignity etc etc. All these are feeling aggregates and they are vedana-kkhandhaa. There are also many mental pleasures or somanassa vedanaa. When people experience what they like they become happy and they feel good in their mind. Examples are seeing what they like, hearing what they want to hear, eating of what they like, smelling of agreeable things, touching of agreeable objects all causes mental pleasures and they are somanassa vedana and they are vedana-kkhandhaa. There is the 5th feeling. It is upekkha vedanaa or indifferent feeling. It is called indifferent feeling because it is not physical pain or physical easeness. It is not mental pain or mental happiness. So it is just indifferent feeling. It is upekkhaa vedanaa. Very initial seeing, very initial hearing, very initial smelling, very initial tasting, very initial touching are all associated with such kind of feeling. That is feeling of indifferent nature. There are many consciousness that have such feeling in the mind. All these feelings are feeling aggregates or vedana-kkhandhaa. Vedana- kkhandhaa is just a part of 4 naama-kkhandhaa. Even though it is called as separate khandhaa in actual sense these feeling cannot arise without other 3 naama-kkhandhaas namely sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception, sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation, and vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50140 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and U... kenhowardau Hi Howard, Welcome back, I hope you enjoyed your trip. ------------------- H: > > > It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no control." ............. KH: > > That can be said with regard to ultimate reality, but it cannot be said with regard to conventional reality. ............. H: > Correct. But, in addition, I think, the point needs to be made that conventional truth is, though in a limited and figurative way, also truth. ------------------- I'm not so sure. An object is either an illusion or a reality: it cannot be both. -------------------------------- H: > > > So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? ;-)) .............. KH: > > That "logic" could appeal only to someone who is confused between ultimate and conventional realty. ............... H: > I agree - it would only appeal to such a person *or* to a person who sees conventional truth as merely falsehood. ------------------------------- But surely there is no difference between the two: anyone who sees conventional truth as "merely falsehood" must necessarily be confused between ultimate and conventional realty. Let's be sure we are talking about the same thing. It is correct to maintain that, ultimately, there are only dhammas and that all else is illusion. However, it is incorrect to maintain, "I do not exist (i.e., my existence is falsehood)." I think we agree on that, but we seem to disagree on the cause of the second, incorrect, view. I say it is due to confusion between ultimate and conventional reality. You agree, but you say it can also be due to excessive belief in ultimate reality. At this stage, our conversation strayed into another area: ---------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > that is not the Theravada position, is it? According to the texts, dhammas have sabhava (their own substance). ........................ <. . .> H: > As to the Theravadin position, to the extent that the Theravadin Abhidhamma and commentaries take dhammas to be substantial entitities with self-nature, that is an extent to which I am not a Theravadin. ---------------------------- Fair enough, but I am sure dhammas are substantial. They have their own (inherent) characteristics. That is to say, their characteristics are not merely ascribed to them. ------------------------------------------------------- H: > I'm not hung up on categorizing myself as Theravadin or anything else for that matter. -------------------------------------------------------- No, nor am I, although I only study Theravada. Ultimately, mere dhammas exist; no dhamma-student is found. ----------------------------------- H: > But I understand 'sabhava' in Theravada not to mean "substance" but merely "characteristic". ----------------------------------- We have had this discussion several times. I can only repeat my understanding of the texts: dhammas are substantial in that they bear their own, inherent, characteristics. Getting back to the main point: --------------- <. . .> H: > > > and a worldling who is one-sidedly inclined to paramattha is far from compassion - and not so filled with wisdom either ;-). ........................ KH: > > This is true only if, by "worldling," you are referring to a person who confuses ultimate reality with conventional reality. ....................... H: > No, we disagree. A worldling who is intellectually overwhelmed by the concept of paramattha dhammas may see conventional truth as utter falsehood. ---------------- We are back to where we started, and to where we definitely disagree. Without wanting to name any particular person(s), you perceive an unhealthy, idiosyncratic, preoccupation with paramattha truth. I, on the other hand, disagree that paramattha truth can ever be taken too far. While It cannot be taken too far it can be taken not far enough, in which case it is confused with conventional reality. That is when false logic comes into play - e.g., "Because there is no control; I don't have to apologise for causing harm." Consider the All Embracing Net of Views, which includes (from memory); "The self exists. The self does not exist. The self both exists and does not exist. The self neither exists nor does not exist." It seems to me that those four wrong views flow from the opinion you have stated above; namely, "conventional truth is, though in a limited and figurative way, also truth." If that is so, then we have to ask of every conventional reality, "Does it exist, does it not exist, does it both exist and not exist or does it neither exist nor not exist?" To put it another way, "Is it truth, falsehood, both truth and falsehood or neither truth nor falsehood?" I say we should avoid the net of views and understand that ultimately there are only dhammas. Ken H 50141 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:35am Subject: Re: No Igor not eye of Newt. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi Group, > > ... > toodles, > colette Hallo Colette We have had some DSG-communication before and now again it surprises me that you seem to be interested in the same topic as me, in the same texts, and still I hardly could understand anything of what you mean. You write some days ago you had an enormous event. Later you write about a Near-Death Experience you had. Perhaps some days ago you had an 'Near Life Experience' (NLE) ? " The concept of Emptiness, Sunyata, Shunyata, is a condition that must be achieved before one can experience Nirvana or Nibanna." This must be you own text, and that I think serious, is great. Now about "Bhavavikeka's Svatantra-anumana and Its Soteriological Implications" I had downloaded it some months ago and I start reading it again after trying to understand your message. And again it seems to difficult, I get irrirated: what has this kind of logical reasoning to do with my getting enlightened? But still it's fascinating, don't you think so? Perhaps we can better read Nagarjuna himself, for example the 'easy' translation Stephen Batchelor made of the Karika: http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/verses2.htm Metta Joop 50142 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: (Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I don't know how long our discussion is going to continue. ============================ Sukin: > I am not saying that all outward conditions are the same; the hell > plane after all is in direct contrast to the heavenly plane. And the > human plane is said to be best for the development of satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: ??? I am thinking this is almost the same implication of 'good > place' 'good time'. Sukinder: Same perhaps, if we look at both with conventional understanding. The hell plane is the result of akusala kamma, so little or no possibility of panna arising. In the heaven plane, life is too good and too long to arouse any sense of urgency. The human plane is the result of kusala kamma so there can be panna, and no one experiences too many kusala vipaka continuously. Yes, today we are in the human plane and the Teachings are available, extremely rare chance to happen. Thinking this can arouse a sense of urgency. But can this be independent of panna? And if panna does arise, is it not just that, i.e. a momentary arising? Does panna condition an idea of `doing' something about it? Whatever follows from this realization, is not the `worth' of that dependent on whether or not it is with panna, whether of vipassana or samatha kind? Is there any bhavana when there is no understanding? And if not, is there any good in encouraging them, especially in light of the fact that the purpose of following the Buddha is to eradicate all kinds of akusala? But again this is all `thinking' and if it encourages more thinking, then indeed we are missing the point. What use is it to argue about whether which place is better or worse for the development of satipatthana? I don't even like to think about "anywhere and anytime" because even this is concept and can encourage the idea that `self' can choose to develop sati at anytime. So even if there were a momentary realization that this life is precious in terms of the opportunity to develop satipatthana, can the `self' then *do* anything about that? =============================== Htoo: > When existing in the place (on this earth of human world) do > satipatthaana. > > When it is the time in human realm do satipatthana. Sukinder: Yes if indeed there was control over the arising of citta, then it would make sense to say, "do satipatthana", but is there? The conditions are in place, in terms of potential objects of satipatthana, and just knowing this theoretically is not enough. There must be the accumulated panna to actually condition kusala citta with panna to arise and take a paramattha dhamma as object. But we cannot will this to happen. ========================== Htoo: > A. Where is satipatthaana more frequent? > > a) hell realms > b) animal realms > c) ghost realms > d) human realm > e) deva realms > f) brahma realms Sukinder: In principle and according to theory, d. =============================== Htoo: > B. Where is satipatthaana more frequent? > > a) brothals > b) discos > c) wars > d) retreats > e) hurricane > f) tsunami Sukinder: Now this is different, because we don't know the conditions, whether kamma or whatever other conditions, that we are where we are at any given moment. We can talk in general about kamma being the cause of human birth, but can we say the same about moment to moment realities? By very strong lobha we may be driven to a brothel, but we may also have developed enough panna to condition sati at whatever level. And so by pakatupanissaya paccaya, sati may arise. On the other hand we can also by other conditions, find ourselves at a meditation retreat and here too by pakatupanissaya paccaya, sati may arise. However in either situation, there is no saying what cittas are going to arise and what kind of vipaka is going to condition what javana. True, given that the accumulation of akusala being far greater than kusala and panna, the chances of the former conditioning is far greater, but this applies equally to all situations a to f don't you think? And though it may be true that dosa would most likely arise during tsunamis and lobha for brothels for example, this does not mean "sati" is going to arise at retreats! It may be just *weaker* and less frequent dosa and lobha. But what about "ditthi", the main enemy? I see however that you factor in "teacher" as well below, so I'll comment more there. ===================================== Htoo: > It is right that satipatthaana does not depend on *chosen time* and > *chosen place*. But could you please answer above 2 questions? Sukinder: I doubt my answers above are satisfactory…… ========================================= > Sukin: > > It is natural for us to react with dosa to noisy places, and with > lobha to peace and quiet. And it is said that lobha is harder to > perceive as an enemy, compared to dosa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Both lobha and dosa are the object of satipatthaana. > > But 'will satipatthaana more frequently be arising when in hurricane, > in tsunami, in torture, in wars?' Sukinder: Better not speculate, perhaps? ================================= > Sukin: > > So do you think it is easier at the retreat for sati to arise > especially with preconceived ideas and expectations? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > For retreats-non-believers the answer will be already there in their > mind. > > It is not *the retreat* that helps. It is *the learned teacher* that > matters. Sukinder: It is really not a matter of not believing in retreats, but about thinking that there is a better time and place and acting upon the thought. Regarding teachers, I think we really go there with absolutely *no* idea about whether the teacher really knows or not, we take it all on faith. What is our understanding with regard to the concept of retreat and meditation instructors? I think it is vague and blurry, mixed with hope and expectation. And given the level of our ignorance, wouldn't the wise and compassionate thing to do is to teach the Teachings so as to gain some understanding of what Dhamma really is? Because once there is a degree of understanding there grows a corresponding level of confidence not so much in the meditation teacher, but in the Dhamma itself. And this will allow for a level of independence in the student from where he wouldn't then have to follow like sheep any teacher, but gain instead the necessary understanding needed to being a lamp unto himself. Isn't this the purpose of the Teachings? Actually this is why I once started the discussion about what a beginning student of dhamma needs to hear, but I won't go into that now. =========================================== > Sukin: > > And what about the other side, i.e. the tendency to lobha "sexy > voice", "brothels" etc. being more than in a retreat? Same here, if > seen with wrong understanding, then the retreat will only serve as > conditions for more lobha. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Lobha is also the object for satipatthaana. > > That lobha may be related to sensuous things. > That lobha may be related to non-sensuous things. > > Brothals do not have satipatthaana teachers while retreats are led by > satipatthaana teachers. > > As lobha is the object of satipatthaana and you also think retreats > are not of your taste then you can choose brothals or anything you > like except retreats. Sukinder: I hope you are now clear that I object not to retreats, but to the idea of choosing. Though of course, when it comes to "retreats", so much wrong view is attached to this concept, that yes, retreat does become a special problem. ;-) So I choosing brothel or whatever place is definitely silly. ================================== > > Htoo: > > Did you say 'Culapanthaka did not have ditthi before he became an > > > arahat on that day? > > Sukinder: > > I suppose he must have, but I was trying to distinguish his case from > the more obvious cases. In his case I believe the primary hindrance > was moha rooted in uddacca and that moha with doubt must have arisen > relatively less. I was distinguishing mainly with modern day > Buddhists who flock like sheep to meditation retreats mostly with > miccha ditthi. > =============================== > Htoo: > > So you believe Culapanthaka did have ditthi (including self-identity). > Sarah aslo said 'self-view' has to be released before the start of > journey. Please refer to our very old discussions. Actually ditthi is > killed and eradicated at sotapatti magga door. > > I would not discuss about retreats. Sukinder: I don't get your point. Please explain. ======================================== > Sukinder: > > Saddha must be with panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here *must* comes from your own thought. There are many saddhaa. Not > all saddhaa are with pannaa. This does not mean that those saddhaa > without pannaa are not to be developed. Any saddha is good. If with > pannaa it is much much more better. Sukinder: You left out what followed this part. In that you would see that I did not deny saddha with respect to other levels of kusala. However I was hinting at the possibility of not even developing that if the Teachings is wrongly understood. Allow me to elaborate: I think many people are attracted to Buddhism genuinely to develop more kusala. However because they do not understand correctly at the pariyatti level the Teachings, they may grow to be attached to developing kusala. And here `self' is at work. So much so many even want and do become monks, but this is not the correct motivation. You can't start the journey of eradicating kilesas without knowing and recognizing self-view. For similar reasons, many others go to retreats, some with the idea of experiencing less "sense impressions". But little do they realize that when they have such thoughts, at that moment they do *not* understand the Buddha's teachings. The Dhamma is meant to teach us to understand any and every experience as "dhatu" and "anatta" and not simply to prefer the experience of one type of dhamma over another, i.e. kusala to akusala. You can't understand dhamma as dhamma if it is all the time being covered up by `self' in one form or the other. So for a person who genuinely wants to develop kusala but misunderstands the Buddha's teachings, his intentions will be so mixed up with wrong view that I think there is a danger of ending up being neither here nor there. Again this is too long, hope you don't mind. Metta, Sukinder. 50143 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan nidive Hi Steve, > It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there were > recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most likely > before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were > attaining these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and > now. I think you have made a good point. Regards, Swee Boon 50144 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:45am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - The question was good because it asked whether there was an error in your understanding. And I think there was an error. Your main defense is based on katamo and katamaa. You wrote : --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > As I anticipated there arises a good question. Because it reaches the > area of 'hot spot'. This will ever be hot. Because not all parties > obtain jhaana and this is the chief reason why argumentations arise. > > Agreeing and disagreeing is personal preference. > > Katamo means 'what for a noun in singular number'. > Katamaa means 'what for a noun in plural number'. > > If pin-point samma-samaadhi is just one. It is ekaggataa cetasika. > Tep: So you insist that the text is 'katamaa ca bhikkhave, samma- samaadhi' and that's why there are several samma-samaadhi? But I checked Mahaasatipatthaana Suttam by Vipassana Research Institute and have found 'kattamo ca bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' instead. As a matter of fact, I also doubt it when you say katamo is for a singular noun. The following is an excerpt from the publication by VRI. kattamaa ca bhikkhave sammaaditthi? katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasankappo? kattamaa ca bhikkhave sammaavaacaa? ... kattamo ca bhikkhave sammaavaayaamo? katamaa ca bhikkhava sammaasati? kattamo ca bhikkhave summaasamaadhi? I also checked the Pali at the metta.lk/tipitaka and found 'kattamo ca bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' there too ! Question: Why are there only one sammaasankappo and one sammaavaayaamo? I hope an expert in the Pali among us would explain all this for me. Regards, Tep ========= 50145 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:08am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) nidive Hi Htoo, > One samaadhi is well attained then one has to exit from jhaana and > does retrospection on jhaana and see anicca, dukkha, anatta and > attain magga naanas. I am not sure why does one have to "exit from jhana" before contemplating on the three universal characteristics. I thought that when one is in jhana, one's concentration should be so good that this should be the best time to investigate the three universal characteristics instead of having "exited the jhana". I do not quite agree with you that it is impossible to see anicca, dukkha and anatta while in jhanas. At least Anguttara Nikaya IX.36 seems to suggest that it is possible to do contemplation while in jhanas. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' ------------------------------------------------------------------- Comments: The monk entered and remained in the first jhana and nothing was mentioned of the monk having exited the jhana before doing contemplation of insight. Regards, Swee Boon 50146 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) mlnease Hi Sarah (and Dan), Interesting--so you take this to refer to corruptions of insight? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...) > S: I understood it (rightly or wrongly) to refer to that particular kind > of self-overestimation only (with regards to the insight attained). > Ignorant worldlings who have not considered the teachings or developed any > insight would have no reason for having any idea that self-view and other > wrong views had been eradicated. > > Of course there can be many other kinds of unwholesome overestimation... 50147 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, James,(and Robert & all) - Catching a drop of internet time while on vacation in Vermont. :-) -----Original Message----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:44:31 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. Hi Robert K., You wrote that you would like to continue this discussion because of its importance. I agree with that and wish to continue this discussion also. I still cannot say with 100% certainty that wisdom isn't accumulated, because I can't find the Buddha specifically saying that, however I am finding that the nature of wisdom and how it is cultivated doesn't seem identify wisdom as an accumulation. Take for example the Panna Sutta (AN VIII.2), where the Buddha describes the development of wisdom- the Buddha doesn't mention anything about the accumulation of wisdom from lifetime to lifetime. Actually, the sutta is very straightforward: Find a teacher or respectable friend; learn the dhamma from this teacher/respectable friend and ask questions until all confusions are put aside; seclude oneself in body and mind; remain virtuous by following the precepts; study the dhamma until it is well understood and becomes a part of one's view; develop skillful mental qualities and abandon unskillful mental qualities; only speak about the dhamma or maintain noble silence, not idle chit-chat; and maintain mindfulness of the arising and passing away of the aggregates. This is how one develops wisdom of the Four Noble Truths. Nothing is mentioned about accumulations. Wouldn't such a thing be mentioned if it was important? I think so. Let me just throw in this quote: Wisdom arises from practice; Without practice it is lost. Knowing these two ways of gain and loss, Conduct yourself so that wisdom grows. -Dhammapada 282 This is the only quote from the Buddha which states indirectly that wisdom isn't accumulated from lifetime to lifetime. It is only the practice of dhamma which will carry wisdom from life to life, without the practice the wisdom is lost (as in forever gone, not just supressed). Now, one thing that you have emphasized in this thread is the paramis and how the fact that wisdom is one of the paramis must mean it is accumulated. On the surface, this seems like a good argument, but when one examines the nature of the paramis much closer your argument isn't as convincing. Take for example this description of how long the paramis must be developed the bodhsatta to become a Buddha, from "A Treatise on the Paramis" by Acariya Dhammapala and translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "(xiv) HOW MUCH TIME IS REQUIRED TO ACCOMPLISH THEM? As a minimum, four incalculables (asankheyya) and a hundred thousand great aeons (mahakappa); as a middle figure, eight incalculables and a hundred thousand great aeons; and as a maximum, sixteen incalculables and a hundred thousand great aeons.31 This threefold division obtains by way of those in whom wisdom is predominant, those in whom faith is predominant, and those in whom energy is predominant, respectively. For those in whom wisdom is predominant, faith is weakest and wisdom keenest; for those in whom faith is predominant, wisdom is middling (and energy weakest); and for those in whom energy is predominant, wisdom is weakest (and faith middling). But supreme enlightenment must be achieved by the power of wisdom; so it is said in the commentary." http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/ParamisTreatise.html#top Now, wisdom isn't described here as something that is accumulated, it is described more as a character trait. If wisdom is accumulated than there wouldn't be bodhisattas with predominate wisdom, middling wisdom, and weakest wisdom, right? As for your quote from the Therigatha, Robert, I don't see it saying anything about wisdom being accumulated. It doesn't even mention wisdom. Metta, James ================================ Assume a mental activity, W, that can operate at various levels. Assume also that one occasion of W's operating is a condition for future occasions of W to operating at higher levels. Then there will be the *appearance* of W being a "thing" which accumulates, and conventionally it would be quite reasonable to speak of W as something that accumulates. I think that wisdom is a prime example of such a conventionally accumulating "thing". With metta, Howard 50148 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:55am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. nidive Hi Howard, > Assume a mental activity, W, that can operate at various levels. > Assume also that one occasion of W's operating is a condition for > future occasions of W to operating at higher levels. > Then there will be the *appearance* of W being a "thing" which > accumulates, and conventionally it would be quite reasonable to > speak of W as something that accumulates. I think that wisdom is a > prime example of such a conventionally accumulating "thing". This smells a bit like induction mathematics to me. The loop invariant is the assumed "proximate condition". The base case is the spark of wisdom that was ignited from the beginningless past. Does reality behave in this order? Regards, Swee Boon 50149 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:43am Subject: Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi, Steve (Attn. James, Swee, Sarah, and others)- Welcome to the forum! Thank you for paying attention to the discussion about the jhanas before and after the Buddha's Awakening. >Tep: I think there are two main points I have made. > 1) There was an old jhana taught by non-Buddhist before the Buddha > discovered the jhana system that led to enlightenment. > 2) Prince Siddartha, after finishing with the last teacher (who taught > him arupa-jhana that led to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non- >perception), later on attained samma-samadhi (see MN 36) through >the 4 jhanas that are based on viveka and nekkhamma. But this 8th >path factor is well supported by the seven other factors (see MN 117). >Thus he clearly had entered the Stream and became an Ariyan. Steve: The jhana factors described in the Brahmajala sutta are identical to the jhana factors attained by the Bodhisattva as he sat under the rose-apple tree and the Bodhi tree. They all have the same factors as Samma Samadhi in the Magga-Vibhanga Sutta ... ... It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there were recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most likely before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were attaining these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and now. Tep: You are reasonable based on the Brahmajala sutta alone. Now, let's consider MN 36 in light of the Brahmajala sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-036x-tb0.html Please review MN 36 and answer the following questions for me, if you'd like to. Are you concluding that there were some "recluses and Brahmins" (including people outside Buddhism) at that time who were capable of attaining the same eighth path factor (samma-samadhi) discovered by the Bodhisatta (according to MN 36)? If that is what you are concluding, does it follow that these people were able to enter the Stream and became Ariya puggala even before the Bodhisatta did? It sounds incredible, doesn't it? Sincerely, Tep ======== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > Hi Tep, All > > Some comments below. > (snipped) > In the Brahmajala sutta one of the wrong views is a doctrine of > Nibbana here and now based on the attainment of the 4 jhanas: > > `But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded > from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhana, which > is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the > rapture and happiness born of seclusion- at this point, good sir, the > self attains supreme nibbaba here and now. (Brahmajala sutta) > > St: The jhana factors described in the Brahmajala sutta are identical > to the jhana factors attained by the Bodhisattva as he sat under the > rose-apple tree and the Bodhi tree. They all have the same factors as Samma Samadhi in the Magga-Vibhanga Sutta: > > And what, monks, is right concentration? There is the case where a > monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful > (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. (Magga-vibhanga Sutta) > (snipped) 50150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Perfections : Introduction ( was [dsg] Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nilovg Hi Phil, op 15-09-2005 04:33 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I think I am hooked on this book and will be listening a lot so > will be posting bits now and then. ----- N: Very good, I will too. > Ph: > I heard this: "Kusala is not always a perfection. Thus, it is > becessary to understand when kusala is a perfection and when it is > not." --- N: Yes, in theory. Kusala with the aim to have less defilements, and not thinking of one's own profit at all. But we cannot know this by thinking about it. Yes, I can say it, but do I really understand? ------ Ph: I was a bit surprised to hear this: "It is beneficial carefully to > study the ten perections, so that we can consider and investigate > for ourselves which perfections have not been sufficiently > accumulated." ----- N: These words can be a condition for us to develop any kind of kusala for which there is an opportunity, no matter how tired we are, no matter we are not in the mood. This can also be applied when you have to teach: an opportunity for dana! > Ph: However, later in the introdutcion, A. Sujin points out that the > perfections are the opposite of lobha "The ten perfections have > lobha as their opposite and therefore we should not forget that we > should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala but > because we see the danger of each kind of akusala." ..... > But it is hard not to want to have gain for ourselves. --- N: But we can learn to see the disadvantage of lobha. That is why we study the teachings. Nina. 50151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: perfections read by Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Azita, Kh Sujin said what you quote below. Sometimes the Dhamma subject is heavy, not easy, but we can still be patient and have viriya to listen. Later on we gain more understanding of a difficult subject and we see that it is beneficial. The listening was not in vain. Nina. op 15-09-2005 01:34 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > Above you say sometimes we have to listen to what does not > interest us vey much. Do you mean in general conversation Nina, or > do you mean in dhamma discussion? Maybe its the same thing, if one > is not interested in either topic for discussion, one may need > viriya to just sit and listen, without fidgeting, or 'spacing out' > as I tend to do - a lot. 50152 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 2, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: upadana khandhas nilovg Hi Sarah, Yes, we read texts and we have to be careful not to make them abstract. Another example: reading the Visuddhimagga about the stages of insight. We can get it all wrong if we consider them as being theoretical. It can happen with many texts we read. Nina. op 15-09-2005 09:31 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > This topic and the passages in question are very much about the > development of vipassana in daily life as I see them. 50154 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 272- Wrong View/di.t.thi (h) nilovg Hi Steve, thank you, that was a lot of work. Nina. op 15-09-2005 01:46 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@...: > Below is a list of the 62 Wrong Views taken from B. Bodhis 'All- > Embracing net of views', a translation of the Brahmajaala Sutta and > its Commentaries. 50155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - The correct Pali I believe is 'katamo ca bhikkhave sammasamaadhi'. And I already wrote about this in a previous post. Now I just want to briefly answer your comment below. > Htoo: > Dear Tep, the context already says that there are many. They are 1st > jhaana, 2nd jhaana and so on. > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, personal belief is up to you. In both translation there > describe many. 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana etc. You can say > that sammaa-samaadhi is just one. If this is the case it is ekaggataa > cetasika and it is right to say that there is only one. > Tep: The 1st through the 4th jhanas together are considered as a single thing called samma-samaadhi. Same way as an automobile that consists of 4 tyres, 1 engine, 1 steering wheel, etc. Regards, Tep ========= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Htoo: > These are translation. I posted the original. > > The Buddha said, 'Katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi?' Not 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi'. I have already explained this in the previous reply. (snipped) > 1. with 5 jhaana factors, still not absorbed > 2. with 5 jhaana factors, being absorbed > 3. with 5 jhaana factors, no more absorbed > 4. with 3 jhaana factors, still not absorbed > 5. with 3 jhaana factors, being absorbed > 6. with 3 jhaana factors, no more absorbed > 7. with 2 jhaana factors, still not absorbed > 8. with 2 jhaana factors, being absorbed > 9. with 2 jhaana factors, no more absorbed > 10.with 2 jhaana facots (feeling being equanimous), still not absorbed > 11.with 2 jhaana factors(feeling being equanimous), being absorbed > 12.with 2 jhaana factors(feeling being equanimous), no more absorbed > > 2 is 1st ruupa jhaana. > 5 is 2nd ruupa jhaana. > 8 is 3rd ruupa jhaana. > 11 is 4th ruupa jhaana. All 4 aruupa jhaanas are also 11. Because > they are all absorbed and there are only 2 jhaana factors of > equanimous feeling and one-pointedness or ekaggataa. > > 10 may well be just before all 4 aruupa jhaanas. > 12 may well be just after exit from all 4 aruupa jhaanas. > > The namewise all 4 ruupa jhaanas and all 4 aruupa jhaanas are sammaa- > samaadhi. But when in absorption there is no reason to see any > nibbana or any lokuttaraa dhamma. > > One samaadhi is well attained then one has to exit from jhaana and > does retrospection on jhaana and see anicca, dukkha, anatta and > attain magga naanas. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 50156 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan mlnease Hi Tep and Steve, May I butt in a moment? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan > Are you concluding that there were some "recluses and Brahmins" > (including people outside Buddhism) at that time who were capable of > attaining the same eighth path factor (samma-samadhi) discovered by > the Bodhisatta (according to MN 36)? If that is what you are concluding, > does it follow that these people were able to enter the Stream and > became Ariya puggala even before the Bodhisatta did? It sounds > incredible, doesn't it? I know I'm late entering this discussion, but it seems to me that right concentration of the eightfold path arises only with the other path-factors--so of course only at path moments (so only for ariya puggala). In other words, the presence of at least five of the other path factors is what differentiates concentration (of any level) from right concentration of the eightfold path. mike 50157 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:00:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth Hi Larry (& Howard), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Howard: "It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no > control." So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? > ;-))" ... S: this sounds dangerously close to a kind of wrong view, the same as why develop wholesome states or perform kusala kamma at all. -------------------------------- Howard: Yes indeed it sounds like wrong view. It certainly *is* wrong view! ------------------------------- .... > L:> Hi Howard, > > I agree with your basic thesis, moderation in all things, but remorse is > actually a cetasika, an ultimate reality. There is no me and no you but > pain is real and it was conditioned by this body of accumulations and > tendencies. Technically speaking, remorse can't arise with self view. ... S: Right, remorse or regret or dosa of any kind can't arise with self view. ------------------------------ Howard: Right, not at that very moment. ------------------------------ Does a such a reflection or an apology have to be with remorse? Doesn't it just depend on the citta at the time as we've been discussing? Can't there be kind wishes for the other's welfare? ----------------------------- Howard: Ah, but there is my point! The welfare of WHAT other? There are no beings, no selves, no persons. So, "whose" welfare should we properly wish for? For the welfare of "whom" did the Buddha teach the Dhamma for 45 years? For worldlings and lesser ariyans, I believe that conventional, conceptual truth must play a part in our understanding. A worldling who perversely allows his/her purely intellectual, meager understanding of paramattha-sacca to overwhelm ordinary conventional truth to to the extent that s/he lives ruled by the *belief* in "no beings" is in danger of immorality. ------------------------------------------ Metta, Sarah ========================================== With metta, Howard 50158 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and U... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - -----Original Message----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:26:14 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and U... Hi Howard, Welcome back, I hope you enjoyed your trip. ================================ Thanks! Actually, I'm not back yet. We return tomorrow. At the moment, I'm fighting with a really awful computer; so I will have to let this go. But in any case, I'm not sure there is much more to say. We do seem to disagree on this one. :-) With metta, Howard 50160 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:58pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Dear Joop, Joop: I like the way you abstract the Panna Sutta and I like the positive way of bringing the Teaching of the Buddha. Many buddhistic texts (including DSG-messages) are negative, are sermons: avoid the negative, avoud the negative, otherwise …Even the three 'right speech', ' right action' and 'right livelihood' got sometimes the negative header 'the abstinences'. James: I am glad that you enjoyed my abstract of the Panna Sutta. It is a beautiful sutta isn't it? I have been reflecting a lot on that sutta the past day or so and what it means to my life and Buddhist practice. And, as you point out about my personality, I have taken a positive approach in this evaluation of my present situation. I could bemoan the fact that I don't have a dhamma teacher or respectible friend right now (at least not in person); that I cannot seclude myself in body and mind (except during meditation); that i can't completely follow the precepts because I can't be honest about who I am in this Muslim country; that I cannot speak only about the dhamma or maintain noble silence as a layperson, etc., but I have decided to look at the situation positively. There are things that I can do about my situation to more closely follow what the Buddha intended- and I have an inkling for a book idea on this subject, but not sure. Joop: It must be a cultural difference, I think most (modern) westerners prefer the positive formules: they are doing their liberating work better than the negative one, based on anxiety. James: You make an interesting point here. Not sure if you are correct but it does have validity. I remember getting into discussions on DSG and DL concerning the question: Is Buddhism was optimistic, pessimistic, or neither? I always chose optimistic!! Just look at the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha explains that life is suffering but he doesn't stop there (you wouldn't think so though by all of the negative posts one can read just in DSG), he goes on to explain that the suffering of life can be transcended and that the path has been found. That seems optimistic to me! Joop: And metta, one of your (and my) favorites has in the Abhidhamma-system the name 'non- hatred'. James: Oh, metta is one of your favorites too?!! I am really glad that I am not alone in my love and appreciation of the cultivation of metta. I know that I am rough in my speech (and that seems to go through cycles) but I always try to be kind and compassionate in my heart. Metta meditation helps with this. Hmmm...in the Abhidhamma- system metta is given the description of 'non-hatred'? I didn't know that. That makes metta practically nothing, a non-entity. No wonder I am frequently arguing in favor of metta in this group and getting lots of static back. Joop: Thanks for your abstracting this Sutta. I dedicate this message to Herman, I think he is still lurking DSG: how are you pal? James: You're welcome. Yes, I also hope to see the return of Herman. Metta, James 50161 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ================================ > Assume a mental activity, W, that can operate at various levels. Assume also that one > occasion of W's operating is a condition for future occasions of W to operating at higher levels. > Then there will be the *appearance* of W being a "thing" which accumulates, and conventionally it > would be quite reasonable to speak of W as something that accumulates. I think that wisdom is a > prime example of such a conventionally accumulating "thing". > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for joining the thread. Yes, it may appear, conventionally, that wisdom is accumulating. But we aren't discussing that type of accumulation. We are discussing accumulation at the ultimate level relating to the mind stream. So, are you for or against wisdom accumulating at that level, regardless of the vissitudes of conventional reality? Metta, James 50162 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth lbidd2 Sarah: "Does a such a reflection or an apology have to be with remorse? Doesn't it just depend on the citta at the time as we've been discussing? Can't there be kind wishes for the other's welfare?" Hi Sarah, I've been discussing this off-list with Icaro! Remorse can be either kusala as ottappa (fear of wrong doing) or akusala as kukkucca (uneasiness of conscience). I agree there can be kind wishes but it seems to me an apology necessarily accepts blame. Is there anything in the Vinaya about apologising for all one's misdeeds? Larry 50163 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: I say that of course, it is possible to develop understanding - the Buddha tells us so. "It is possible to eradicate the unwholesome, and develop the wholesome, it if weren't, I would not tell you to do so." Absolutely. But we have to have things in perspective. If we consume suttas (including the metta sutta) unaware that our ignorance and greed are at work, we will not go anywhere but deeper in ignorance. James: Who exactly is the "we" you are referring to who consumes suttas unaware of the ignorance and greed at work? Why would such an activity increase ignorance? Phil, I can't completely understand what you mean because you aren't giving me specifics. Honestly, you seem to have an irrational fear, a hysteria, of the unwholesome roots. Calm down a bit and ask yourself some questions: How ignorant is a person going to be if he or she is studying the Buddha's teachings? How greedy is a person going to be if he/she is studying the Metta Sutta in order to cultivate metta? Granted, they are going to have some ignorance and greed but they aren't going to be the scum of the scum.;-)) And the idea you express that such study with ignorance and greed could only result in MORE ignorance and greed is unfounded. Where did the Buddha teach such a thing? Phil: We have to approach suttas with humility and a sense of awe, in my opinion. Yes, there are conditions for eventual insight when we read a sutta. But it is not a proximate condition. There is too much ignorance and greed at work. James: Okay. Yes, just reading a sutta in a flippant manner, or even placing the sutta under your pillow at night to absorb its contents, isn't going to make one wise. Again, Phil, I recommend you read the Panna Sutta to see what is required. Phil: Of course, I'm talking about Phil. That's what I sense about Phil. There may be less of a mass of akusala at work for you and others. James: Phil, judging oneself as being inferior to others is a form of conceit. The Buddha taught against that. I recommend that you just focus on the Buddha's teaching (notice I say Buddha's teaching, not K. Sujin's teaching) and stop worrying about your "mass of akusala". That isn't healthy, in my opinion. Phil: I'll let you have the last word, if you'd like, and we can drop it there. Hi to Amr. James: Okay, I guess I got the last word (but feel free to respond). I will tell Amr you said Hi. Loving Kindness, James 50164 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. philofillet Hi James I will let you have the last word, basically. Just a couple of points. > James: Phil, judging oneself as being inferior to others is a form > of conceit. The Buddha taught against that. You're right. I did that in an unwise attempt to be diplomatic. > I recommend that you > just focus on the Buddha's teaching (notice I say Buddha's teaching, > not K. Sujin's teaching) and stop worrying about your "mass of > akusala". That isn't healthy, in my opinion. Just to clarify that A. Sujin never used that term "mass of kusala" which is technically an incorrect way to describe conditions, and has never taught (that I've heard) that people today tend to be too rooted in lobha (greed is an overly dramatic translation) and moha (not as pejorative as "ignorance") and are definitely too impatient to be able to approach suttas with wisdom. That's my understanding, based on what I know about people and the way we are conditioned from childhood to seek to accomplish things, and inspired by the Buddha's second (anatta) and third (burning) discourses, which I really *will* start a thread about one of these days, because they are so important to me, so sobering, and I need to find out if I am misunderstanding them. A. Sujin does teach that we should remember that our understanding does not begin to compare to that of the Buddha or the noble ones. And that is indisputable, I would say. OK, I'll leave it there. And once again offer you the last word. It's not that I don't like discussing these things with you James. I do. I'd gladly go on and on and on. But you know, wondering if the conditions are there to get busier with other things. Phil 50165 From: "seisen_au" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:22pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' seisen_au Hi Tep, Htoo and all, -- Tep: I also checked the Pali at the metta.lk/tipitaka and found 'kattamo ca bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' there too ! Question: Why are there only one sammaasankappo and one sammaavaayaamo? I hope an expert in the Pali among us would explain all this for me. -- St: Definitely no expert, but I'll give it a go. I believe `katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasamaadhi' is correct. As to the number, all the following are singular. When katama is declined in the following context, it has to agree in gender, number and case with the noun it qualifies. katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaaditthi(Fem/Nom/sing)? katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasankappo(Mas/Nom/sing)? katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaavaacaa(Fem/Nom/sing)? --- katamo ca bhikkhave sammaavaayaamo(Mas/Nom/sing)? katamaa ca bhikkhava sammaasati(Fem/Nom/sing)? katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasamaadhi(Mas/Nom/sing)? If you look at the above, all the masculine nouns have katamo, which is declined to agree with the masculine/nominative/singular noun it qualifies, ie sankappo, vaayaamo and samadhi. Katamaa is also singular and declined to agree with the feminine/nominative/singular noun it qualifies. Corrections welcome! Rgrds Steve 50166 From: "seisen_au" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Re: upadana khandhas seisen_au Hi Sarah, Thanks for the replies. I don't really have much more to add to the thread at the moment as I feel I would be just be repeating my previous comments. Though I will quote B. Bodhi in response to the question K. Sujin raised twice in the passages you quoted: "How can the panca khandha which are not the object of clinging be upadana khandha?' Because upadana khandha does not mean khandhas are "accompanied by taints and by clinging" but "capable of being taken as objects of the taints and of clinging" Looking forward to listening to the recordings. Steve 50167 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:37pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' buddhistmedi... Hi, Steve - I am glad to see your reply that has opened a new door for me. Steve: >Definitely no expert, but I'll give it a go. Tep: Your understanding of the Pali language is way above my level -- somewhat like the knowledge of a black-belt karate teacher versus that of a new student. Thank you for confirming that `katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasamaadhi' is correct. St : If you look at the above, all the masculine nouns have katamo, which is declined to agree with the masculine/nominative/singular noun it qualifies, ie sankappo, vaayaamo and samadhi. Katamaa is also singular and declined to agree with the feminine/nominative/singular noun it qualifies. Tep: %#@& !! Please simplify it down to my level. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, Htoo and all, > > -- > Tep: > I also checked the Pali at the metta.lk/tipitaka and found 'kattamo ca > bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' there too ! > > Question: Why are there only one sammaasankappo and one > sammaavaayaamo? > > I hope an expert in the Pali among us would explain all this for me. > -- > St: > Definitely no expert, but I'll give it a go. > 50168 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 272- Wrong View/di.t.thi (h) mr39515 Thanks --- seisen_au wrote: > > > Hi, > > Below is a list of the 62 Wrong Views taken from B. > Bodhis 'All- > Embracing net of views', a translation of the > Brahmajaala Sutta and > its Commentaries. If you would like the pali for any > of the > particular views, just let me know. ... 50169 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' .../Jhana References/ Prince Siddartha was an Ariyan buddhistmedi... Hi Mike (and Steve, Swee, etc.) - > Mike: > May I butt in a moment? > Tep: Thank you , Mike, for butting in. > Tep (replying to Steve): > > Are you concluding that there were some "recluses and Brahmins" > > (including people outside Buddhism) at that time who were > >capable of attaining the same eighth path factor > > (samma-samadhi) discovered by the Bodhisatta > > (according to MN 36)? If that is what > >you are concluding, does it follow that these people were able to enter the Stream and became Ariya puggala even before the > >Bodhisatta did? It sounds incredible, doesn't it? > > Mike: >I know I'm late entering this discussion, but it seems to me that right > concentration of the eightfold path arises only with the other > path-factors--so of course only at path moments (so only for ariya puggala). > In other words, the presence of at least five of the other path factors is > what differentiates concentration (of any level) from right concentration of the eightfold path. > Tep: I agree with your comments, Mike. But what are the implications (if any)? Regards, Tep ===== 50170 From: "seisen_au" Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:40pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' seisen_au Hi Tep, katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaaditthi? katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasankappo? katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaavaacaa? --- katamo ca bhikkhave sammaavaayaamo? katamaa ca bhikkhava sammaasati? katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasamaadhi? I understand both katamaa and katamo in the above to be singular because sammaaditthi, sammaasankappo sammasamadhi etc are singular. The plural forms would be sammaaditthii, sammasankappaa and sammaasamadhii. Corrections Welcome! Rgrds Steve 50171 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:29pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 275- Wrong View/di.t.thi (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] One tends to cling to an idea of self who coordinates all the different experiences. Someone may think that he can look at someone else and listen to his words at the same time. The lists and classifications which we find in the Abhidhamma are not meant to be used only for theoretical understanding, they are meant to be used for the practice. They are reminders to be aware of the reality which appears now so that wrong view can be eradicated. When hearing appears there can be awareness of its characteristic so that right understanding can know it as it is: as only a type of nåma, not a self, who hears. We may have doubts about the difference between the characteristic of hearing and of the paying of attention to the meaning of the sound. We are inclined to confuse all the six doorways. But hearing does not experience the object of thinking. Intellectual understanding of realities can condition the arising of mindfulness but we are usually infatuated with pleasant objects and we reject unpleasant objects, we forget to be mindful. For example, when we feel hot, we have aversion and then we are forgetful of realities such as heat, feeling or aversion. ***** [Wrong View (di.t.thi) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50172 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth sarahprocter... Hi Larry (Howard & Icaro:)*), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Sarah: "Does a such a reflection or an apology have to be with remorse? > Doesn't it just depend on the citta at the time as we've been > discussing? Can't there be kind wishes for the other's welfare?" > > Hi Sarah, > > I've been discussing this off-list with Icaro! Remorse can be either > kusala as ottappa (fear of wrong doing) or akusala as kukkucca > (uneasiness of conscience). I agree there can be kind wishes but it > seems to me an apology necessarily accepts blame. Is there anything in > the Vinaya about apologising for all one's misdeeds? .... S: Good questions. Now, I understand better what you mean by remorse (kusala or akusala). Certainly the bhikkhus make confessions of offences against the rules of training. There are also many examples in the suttas of people who had been speaking to the Buddha, arguing with wrong views and who then realize their error and apologize in effect by saying how foolish they were to speak inappropriately and so on. The Buddha agrees it was foolish, but as it’s been acknowledged and the follower now resolves to act and speak wisely, all is well. Let me look for a few references to support this: *** From DN2, (Walshe transl). King Ajatasattu of Magadha speaks: “ Transgression overcame me Lord, foolish, erring and wicked as I was in that I, for the sake of the throne deprived my father, that good and just King, of his life. May the Blessed Lord accept my confession of my evil deed that I may restrain myself in future!” The Buddha replies: “Indeed, transgression overcame you when you deprived your father, that good and just King, of his life. But since you have acknowledged the transgression and confessed it, as is right, we will accept it. For he who has acknowledged his transgression as such and confesses it for betterment in future will grow in the Aryan discipline.” *** From Vin11,191, a soldier was sent by Devadatta to murder the Buddha speaks: “Lord, a transgression has overcome me, foolish, misguided, wrong that I was, in that I was coming here with my mind malignant, my mind set on murder. Lord, may the Lord acknowledge for me the transgression as a transgression for the sake of restraint in future. “ The Buddha replies: “Truly friend a transgression overcame you . . . But if you, having seen the transgression as a transgression, confess according to the rule, we acknowledge it for you: for, friend, this in the discipline of a noble one is growth whoever, having seen a transgression as a transgression, confesses according to the rule, he attains restraint in future.” *** Also, Ambala.t.thikaaraahulovaada Sutta, M61, Advice to Rahula The Buddha asks Rahula what a mirror is for and of course Rahula says it’s for reflection. In the same way one’s unwholesome mental states and acts should be wisely considered. From Nanamoli, Bodhi translation: “When you reflect, if you know: ‘This action that I have done with the body[speech, mind] leads to my own affliction, or to the affliction of others, or to the affliction of both; it was an unwholesome bodily action with painful consequences, with painful results,’ then you should confess such a bodily action, reveal it, and lay it open to the Teacher or to your wise companions in the holy life. Having confessed it, revealed it, and laid it open, you should undertake restraint for the future......” *** S: In may places in the texts we’re encouraged to apologise and forgive too. *** One more reference from the Vinaya, Mahavagga 1, Horner (PTS) transl: Some monks who shared cells did ‘not conduct themselves properly’. They were encouraged to apologize by the Buddha, but refused. A rule was laid down by the Buddha: ‘Whoever should not apologise, there is an offence of wrong-doing’. The preceptors who were given apologies did not forgive, even after encouragement to do so. The Buddha laid down another rule: ‘Monks, when you are being apologized to should you not forgive. Whoever should not forgive, there is an offence of wrong-soing.” *** I see apologizing and asking for forgiveness and giving of forgiveness as being kinds of dana. We read in the texts that giving is the opposite of greed, hatred and delusion. One has the others’ welfare at heart. Whenever there are any kind of wholesome states, there is hiri and otappa. When understanding of all kinds of unwholesome states grows, the hiri and otappa is bound to be stronger. Before being enlightened, there must also be hiri and otappa (wholesome shame) of the ignorance of not understanding namas and rupas as realities now, I think. Speaking very personally, usually I find that when I apologize (regardless of any fault), the citta is light at that moment. One can apologize for not helping someone better, for any inconvenience intentionally or unintentionally caused and so on. Basically, one thinks of the other. Even when I say ‘I am sorry’, it doesn’t mean there’s any dosa or regret involved. But of course, there can be too! Before Kom ordained, he went around to past teachers, family and friends (like here on DSG) to ask forgiveness for any offence caused. I believe this is fairly standard. I was also struck by the kind apologies from the Chief bhikkhu in the extract of Khun Sujin’s talks in Cambodia: >”The Patriarch considers himself as the host receiving his guests who bring along the noble Truths. He wishes to apologize if there is anything lacking or anything which is not as it should be. .....Everybody begins to understand the subject of mahå-satipatthåna. They try to grasp the meaning of satipatthåna and thus they ask questions all the time about this subject. If there are questions which are not suitable I also wish to apologize to Mother Sujin.”< ... S: I find such expressions from a very senior bhikkhu to be inspiring and a reminder of the dust-rag which Sariputta encouraged us to reflect on. Of course, everyone has their own way and there are many cultural aspects to what comes easily. When we go to the Holy Places in India with the Thai group, we ask forgiveness which is a kind of paying respect to the Triple Gem. It’s a kind of wholesome apology for any past wrong deeds or views knowingly or unknowingly committed. It can seem quite strange to us at first, but again, reflecting on the dustrag and apologizing and forgiving easily can help to wear away some of the great, great conceit that’s been accumulated, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s *Please encourage Icaro to join us again anytime. I know many oldies would be delighted to see him here again. I often think of him and his keen interest in the Abhidhamma. ========= 50173 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: Time flies by and the danger in death ( was social life and paramatthas. buddhatrue Hi Phil, Okay, one comment as the last word: Phil: A. Sujin does teach that we should remember that our understanding does not begin to compare to that of the Buddha or the noble ones. And that is indisputable, I would say. James: I am not going to say that this teaching of K. Sujin is right or wrong but I am going to say one thing about it: IT IS ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS! First, K. Sujin and you, and everyone, cannot assume such a thing (and I am familiar with the prediction of Buddhaghosa, with its time frame, but historically he has already been proven wrong). Secondly, isn't this just another form of conceit I warned you about earlier? It is pointless and harmful to compare oneself with others (And I thought K. Sujin taught anatta- avoiding conceit is a basic principle of anatta). Thirdly, self flagellation, though it may seem noble in a perverse way, doesn't get one any closer to nibbana- actually, quite the opposite. Loving Kindness, James 50174 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Joop, Larry, Ven Samahita), --- upasaka@... wrote: >> > Howard: "It is said "It's all just conditions," and "There is no > > control." So, when we do something hurtful, why should we apologize? > > ;-))" > ... > S: this sounds dangerously close to a kind of wrong view, the same as > why > develop wholesome states or perform kusala kamma at all. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes indeed it sounds like wrong view. It certainly *is* wrong view! > ------------------------------- ... S: Let's start from this agreement. The wrong view is similar to the one which says everything is conditioned or predetermined rather, so there's no use in developing kusala or in kusala kamma.....the results will be the same. ... >S: Does a such a reflection or an apology have to be with remorse? Doesn't > it > just depend on the citta at the time as we've been discussing? Can't > there > be kind wishes for the other's welfare? > ----------------------------- > Howard: > Ah, but there is my point! The welfare of WHAT other? There are no > beings, no selves, no > persons. So, "whose" welfare should we properly wish for? For the > welfare of "whom" did the Buddha > teach the Dhamma for 45 years? For worldlings and lesser ariyans, I > believe that conventional, > conceptual truth must play a part in our understanding. A worldling who > perversely allows his/her > purely intellectual, meager understanding of paramattha-sacca to > overwhelm ordinary conventional truth to > to the extent that s/he lives ruled by the *belief* in "no beings" is in > danger of immorality. > ------------------------------------------ ... S: I think you know all the answers here, Howard:). They are Joop's questions too. Hope you don't mind the following in note form: 1. Yes, if one merely uses one's theoretical knowledge of paramattha dhammas as a shield or a curtain to escape from any real development of purity and instead of developing more metta and so on is merely developing more conceit and attachment, it's quite wrong and not any kind of real understanding. 2. There are in the ultimate sense truly only namas and rupas. That's it. No Howard, Sarah, Joop or anyone else. When someone becomes interested at all in the Buddha's teachings, the sooner they hear about namas and rupas the better, I think. I know others disagree. It was the great compassion of the Buddha to teach about dhammas, to teach the Noble Truths, to teach about the 3 characteristics of all conditioned dhammas, of all paramattha dhammas only. 3. Test it out for yourself! When there's metta, the object is another being, but there's no wrong view of 'being' at such a time. There's also no understanding of paramattha dhammas at such a time. But it's very wholesome. There cannot be satipatthana all the time! 4. Views about poeple actually existing, only ever arises with attachment and in error. You know this. 5. When we start to think about it intellectually, it may seem that there's some kind of conundrum. But in practise, there isn't at all. Only paramattha dhammas exist and yet, and yet, develop all kinds of wholesome states, including the brahma viharas towards others!! You know all this, Howard:) I think you're just having some doubts which of course can be known as such when they arise!. You explain nicely about paramattha dhammas to others. To quote Larry in a recent post: L:"A concept such as a self or any other concept is not included in the khandhas, is therefore not real, and is therefore not impermanent." (btw, Larry, when we talk now about realities or groups, they are concepts. When the realities making up a group, such as a kalapa or rupas arises, all those rupas are real). To quote Joop's sutta: J:"...The one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others is, for that reason, to be praised." S: Isn't this what we are all doing here -- developing our understanding and sharing the teachings with each other?. [Btw, Joop, with regard to your comment in a message to me about Theravada being dead in fifty years without more creativity....etc, see 'Decline of the Sasana' in U.P. According to the Buddha, it is some of the imaginative renderings and alterations to the teachings from within that leads to the decline. When the teachings are not carefully read in detail and so on. Also see especially Jon's fairly recent post #48619 with the quote from AN about the 5 factors which lead to the disappearance of the true dhamma: not hearing the dhamma, learning the dhamma, retaining the dhamma, investigating and knowing what is significant and practising... Of course, a day may come when Theravada seems to be flourishing, but actually has little or no resemblance to the Buddha's teachings. Also, see Connie's fairly recent post on 'The Sasana's Capacity for being Recast' with just this point having been discussed in the Kathavatthu #48029.] Lots of sidetracks here...Howard, did you read B.Samahita's post #49827? It includes the simile of the drop of honey on the edge of a blade...Ven Samahita, I didn't see any textual reference in this post??? Metta, Sarah ========== 50175 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] sarahprocter... Hi James (Phil, Ven Samahita, Frank & all), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: Not quite. I was saying that fully developed metta to this > degree of jhana, encompassing the `universal' aspects and so on > was/is only for > those with the right conditions in place, i.e highly developed > samatha based on right understanding. > > James: This sounds fine to me; I agree. Obviously it takes some > skill. ... S: We’ve had a very long discussion on metta. In my google account it says there have been 70 posts in the thread, I think (not just us of course). So, I’m leaving the rest for now. On ‘real’, I’d just like to refer you to B.Samahita’s post #49268 with his computer simile and also #50090 with the quote about the illusion of a body being a ‘beguiler of fools’ and ‘similar to a serial killer’ etc.. If there’s anything you disagree with, perhaps you can discuss it further with him until I get back from India. I only say this as I need to start winding up threads now. I have some old threads with Tep and others which have been very neglected which I’d also like to respond to next week if not before. James, I do appreciate our discussions and friendship. Surprisingly perhaps, I don’t feel passionate about the Dhamma at all. I tend to feel passionate about mundane objects of my lobha, but when I reflect on the Dhamma, it is very sobering I find. I perfectly understand that you and others may interpret suttas or aspects of the teachings in quite a different way and that doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Indeed, I greatly respect your keen interest and especially your keen questioning. I think this is the way, rather than any blind acceptance of what anyone says. Thank you for all your help in this regard. And as referred to with another friend off-list, we all get used to the praise and blame on DSG which we should welcome as a test of our equanimity (or lack of:) As Frank recently quoted under the subject heading ‘dhamma soup for the hard to please’:) Dhammapada 227-228: >This has come down from old, Atula, & not just from today: they find fault with one who sits silent, they find fault with one who speaks a great deal, they find fault with one who measures his words. There's no one unfaulted in the world. There never was, will be, nor at present is found anyone entirely faulted or entirely praised.< Thanks again, James Metta or Loving Kindness, Sarah (aka Dr Spock:) ==================== 50176 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for K. Sujin (Re: Dhamma in Cambodia) nilovg Hi James, Yes, I shall ask her. Your direct questions are appreciated. Meanwhile, I shall make an attempt to say something. Generally speaking we can discern different characters of different people. This person is easily angry in his words, that person is full of equanimity. We work with such knowledge in daily life, also on our list here. However, it is beneficial to understand ourselves and others in depth. We all have latent tendencies, and this is not only dealt with in the Abhidhamma, also in the suttas. I repost what I wrote before: < Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. The latent tendencies are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated. They are the following: sense-desire (kåma-råga), aversion (paìigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (diììhi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions.They can condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression of síla at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and added to the latent tendencies. The teaching of the latent tendencies helps us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. > We worldlings have all latent tendencies, but it depends on certain conditioning factors whether they come to the fore. We never know what kind of defilement may suddenly arise. Thus, it is hard to tell precisely what kind of temperament each person has. Through awareness we can learn more about ourselves. In short: there are two ways of looking at temperaments, in a more general, conventional way, the Suttanta method, and in a more precise way, that is by way of ultimate dhammas, the Abhidhamma method. In the Suttas we have both methods (see Kindred Sayings IV) and in the Abhidhamma we have both methods. The Book of Analysis mentions the two methods all the time. Nina. op 14-09-2005 22:19 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > K. Sujin said: > > "Someone may guess about his temperament and he may believe that he > should develop a particular object among the four Applications of > Mindfulness. 50177 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 548 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma; namely a)kusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment- wisdom, and d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling Again depending on the origins of feeling there are six different feelings. They are 1. cakkhu-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of eye-contact) 2. sota-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of ear-contact) 3. ghaana-sam-phassajaa vedanaa(feeling born of nose-contact) 4. jivhaa-sam-phassajaa vedanaa(feeling born of tongue-contact) 5. kaaya-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of body-contact) 6. mano-sam-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of mind-contact) These are 6 different feelings. When we see these phenomena of senses we can consider like this. Eye-consciousness or cakkhu-vi~n~naana citta or seeing arises. In this event there are also material phenomena. There also are ruupa or vanna or colours of different brightness or forms or shapes. This is one phenomenon. Another material phenomenon is that there also arise cakkhu-ppasaada or eye-sensitivity or eye-sense-base. In this event when it is counted as one event there are many events. a) material phenomena b) mental phenomena a) material phenomena 1. arising of ruupa (visual object like forms/shapes/colours/light) 2. arising of cakkhu-ppasaada (eye-sensitivity or eye-sense-base) b) mental phenomena 1. cakkhu-sa.m-phassa (eye-contact) 2. ruupa-sannaa (form-perception) 3. cakkhu-sa.m-phassajaa vedanaa (feeling born of eye-contact) 4. ruupa-sa`n-cetana (form-volition) 5. ekaggataa (one-pointedness to ruupa or form) 6. jiivitindriya (mental life) 7. manasikaaro (attention to ruupa or form) All these 9 events happen at the very very same time in a moment, which is much less than a split second. In the whole event where there comprises all 9 events there is a feeling. After this event another event follows successively when the foregoing event passes away. This new event also involves a feeling. As these feeling arises at a particular point there are 6 different feelings. They are feeling at eye, at ear, at nose, at tongue, at body and at mind. All these feelings are just a khandhaa and they are vedana-kkhandhaa or feeling aggregates. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50178 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > The correct Pali I believe is 'katamo ca bhikkhave sammasamaadhi'. > And I already wrote about this in a previous post. > > Now I just want to briefly answer your comment below. > > > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, the context already says that there are many. They are 1st > > jhaana, 2nd jhaana and so on. > > > Htoo: > > > > Dear Tep, personal belief is up to you. In both translation there > > describe many. 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana etc. You can say > > that sammaa-samaadhi is just one. If this is the case it is ekaggataa > > cetasika and it is right to say that there is only one. > > > > Tep: The 1st through the 4th jhanas together are considered as a > single thing called samma-samaadhi. Same way as an automobile > that consists of 4 tyres, 1 engine, 1 steering wheel, etc. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Now I grasp your idea. You are not talking at a very momentary point of magga citta. Magga citta arises and lasts only 1 in 1,000,000 million of a split second. That single citta ( magga citta ) cannot have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhaana to be honest. Anyway, no 2 objects can be taken up by a single citta. Sotapatti magga citta is a single citta. It cannot take up the object of 1st jhaana, it cannot take up the object of 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana, and 4th jhaana. The only object that is taken by sotapatti magga citta is *NIBBANA*. The same applies to all other 7 lokuttaraa cittas. Do you think a citta can take *NIBBANA* as its object while at the very same time it is taking up jhaana object? With Metta, Htoo Naing 50179 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo, ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Comments: The monk entered and remained in the first jhana and nothing > was mentioned of the monk having exited the jhana before doing > contemplation of insight. > > Regards, > Swee Boon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Swee Boon, I am not good at typical number of Sutta. But in a sutta it describes in a way that emerges from jhaana and retrospect the jhaana and attained naana. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Still there exists the power of jhaana but the object is no more on the object of jhaana which is a sign or pannatti. All ruupa jhaana take pannatti as their object. Only 2 aruupa jhaana that is 2nd and 4th take citta as their object. 1st and 3rd aruupa jhaana also take pannatti as their object. Pannatti does not have any character of anicca, dukkha, anatta as there is no dhamma that is pannatti when we are seeing paramattha dhamma. 50180 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > The question was good because it asked whether there was an error > in your understanding. And I think there was an error. > > Your main defense is based on katamo and katamaa. You wrote : > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > > > As I anticipated there arises a good question. Because it reaches > the > > area of 'hot spot'. This will ever be hot. Because not all parties > > obtain jhaana and this is the chief reason why argumentations arise. > > > > Agreeing and disagreeing is personal preference. > > > > Katamo means 'what for a noun in singular number'. > > Katamaa means 'what for a noun in plural number'. > > > > If pin-point samma-samaadhi is just one. It is ekaggataa cetasika. > > > > Tep: So you insist that the text is 'katamaa ca bhikkhave, samma- > samaadhi' and that's why there are several samma-samaadhi? > > But I checked Mahaasatipatthaana Suttam by Vipassana Research > Institute and have found 'kattamo ca bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' > instead. As a matter of fact, I also doubt it when you say katamo is for a > singular noun. The following is an excerpt from the publication by VRI. > > kattamaa ca bhikkhave sammaaditthi? > katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasankappo? > kattamaa ca bhikkhave sammaavaacaa? > ... > kattamo ca bhikkhave sammaavaayaamo? > katamaa ca bhikkhava sammaasati? > kattamo ca bhikkhave summaasamaadhi? > > I also checked the Pali at the metta.lk/tipitaka and found 'kattamo ca > bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' there too ! > > > Question: Why are there only one sammaasankappo and one > sammaavaayaamo? > > > I hope an expert in the Pali among us would explain all this for me. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Steve already done the job. Thanks Steve. I am just a beginner of Pali study. I am not a Pali expert. When I read the initial chapter of Pali grammar there writes_: --o for singular nominative, and --aa for plural nominative. --a.m for singular accusative, and --e for plural accusative. What ever is right, magga citta just lasts a moment. In that single moment there is no possibility of arising of all 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhaana to be honest. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50181 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:54am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 549 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different stocks of dhamma; namely a)kusala sangaha or the stock of unwholesome dhamma, b) missaka sangaha or the stock of dhamma with similarity, c) bodhipakkhiya sangaha or the stock of dhamma that are the companions of bodhi-naana or enlightenment-wisdom, d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma not in the previous categories. d) sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception Many things about sannaa or perception have been discussed under Dhamm Thread. But here something about sanna will be re-written again for those who are not very familiar with sannaa or perception. Sa~n~naa_ 1. perception, consciousness, sense 2. sense,perception,recognition,assimilation of sensations,awareness 3. consciousness, constituent part of naama 4. making known 5. marks 6. cognition 7. knowledge Sannaa or perception is a mental factor and it arises with each and every citta that arises at each moment. So when it is said 'recognition', it sounds like that mental factor exists permanently and first cognizes and then recognizes things. But sannaa is present in both moment when cognizes and when recognizes. Among five khandhas [see above], sanna-kkhandha frequently causes confusion in terms of translation and interpretation. As usual, translation is not an easy job as any couple of languages will not be so close to fully understand each other. But interpretation on the other hand may work to make sense. Sanna is mostly understood as perception and at many Dhamma sites, sanna appears as perception. At another time, it may appear in the name of consciousness which is a bit confusing with 'citta' which is 'consciousness'. For example the highest jhana or the 4th arupa jhana is called n'eva-sanna-naa-sanna-ayatana arupa jhana. It is translated as neither perception nor non-perception. At another site, it is written as 'neither consciousness nor unconsciousness'. Still there are others who believe that sanna is 'memory' and they will persistently use sanna as memory and they will relate sanna with memory whenever the word sanna arise in a setting of Dhamma anywhere. What does Visuddhimagga say? Some believe that Visuddhimagga is a comprehensive collections of all Dhamma and whenever problem arise they will consult with Visuddhaimagga. What is 'sanna'? 1. Sanna is sense, sanna is consciousness, sanna is perception, sanna is 3rd aggregate of 5 aggregates. 2. Sanna means sense, perception, discernment, recognition, assimilation of sensation, awareness. 3. Sanna is consciousness of diversity. In etymology there appear words end with ~n~na. It means cognition or perception. Sa~n~na, vi~n~nana, pa~n~na are examples of words end with ~n~na. Here sanna is like knowledge of a child. Vinnana is like knowledge of ordinary adult. And panna is like knowledge of an expert. 4. Sanna is conception, idea, notion. 5. Sanna is a thing that used as a mark. It is a guiding wire. It is a guiding rope. 'Rukkha sanna pubbatta sanna karonto' 'using trees and hills as guiding marks' while trekking through jungles and forests. 6. Sanna as twofold. a) Pa.tighasamphassaja. 'Sense impression and recognition' b) Adhivacanasamphassaja. 'Association by similarities.' 7. Sanna as threefold. 1)rupasanna 2)pa.tighasanna 3)nanatthasanna. Kaama, vyaapaada, vihi.msa 8. Sanna as fivefold. Pancavimutti 1) anicca 2) anicce dukkha 3) dukkhe anatta 4) pahaana 5) viraaga 9. Sanna as sixfold. 1) ruupa 2) sadda 3) gandha 4) rasa 5) photthabba 6) dhamma 10. Sanna as sevenfold. 1) anicca sanna 2) anatta sanna 3) asubha sanna 4) adinava sanna 5) pahaana sanna 6) viraaga sanna 7) nirodha sanna 11. Sanna as tenfold. 1) asubha 2) marana 3) ahaare pa.tikula 4) sabbaloke anabhirata 5) anicca 6) anicce dukkha 7) dukkhe anatta 8) pahaana 9) viraaga 10)nirodha 12. Still there are other unclassified definitions. Among these, three words deserve to be examined in some detail. There three words are sanna , vinnana , and panna. Sanna is like the knowledge of a child. For example, when a child see a penny coin he will perceive it as money coin. He will not know more than that as a normal child. As soon as he sees that coin, he immediately knows that it is a money coin. Vinnana is like the knowledge of an ordinary adult. When a man sees the same coin, he knows that it is a money-coin and it worths a panny and it is not a 5 pence coin or 10 pence coin but one-penny coin. And he knows that the coin can be used in circulation of money in trading. Panna on the other hand is like the knowledge of an expert. When a doctor of Chemistry sees a penny coin. He knows that it is a money coin. It worths one penny and it is not 5 pence or 10 pence coin but one penny coin. And he also knows that it can be used in circulation of money in trading. Moreover, he also knows that the coin is made of copper and the weight and texture of the coin is so and so. So panna is penetrative, analytical and in detail realization of all those which are to be realized. Sanna is sometimes translated as memory because there is some relation with memory but not to the extent that sanna is to be equated with memory. As can be seen in above detailing, sanna perceives. When a person see a green tree, he sees it as a green tree. Here there are many moments pass when he actually assumes what he has seen as a green tree. When 'he' first sees that green tree, he knows nothing more than a light and colours. If someone cannot believe this he can test himself by doing rapid blinking. There should place some object in front of him and that object should be replaced with another coloured thing. If the shift is very rapid, he will not know what the object is but just a light in colour. But in that object there always is at least a marker. See No. 5. Sanna is a thing used as a mark. He sees first green. That marker green provokes him another thought which causes arising of dhammaarammana or mental object at manodvara or mind door. As soon as the green colour is seen possible thoughts and concepts that may arise are 1. Grass as grass is always green (live grass). 2. Tree (green tree) 3. Painting 4. Idea of hatred in some culture 5. Previous dressing with green colour 6. Green car 7. Green valvety sandles or footwear 8. Green hat 9. Holiday 10.Moss 11.Traffic light and accidents 12.Exitway of a building and disasters 13...and so on. Sanna works as perceiver of a mark attached to object. Memory on the other hand is a collection of concepts and ideas that suddenly flash back and all at once realize that these concepts are what he experienced. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50182 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:18am Subject: Paali htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Pali means 'texts'. It is Canon. So it is called Pali Canon. That Canon is tipitaka. Those texts are in the language of Magadhii, which was spoken in the area of Maagadha, central India. Pali use 3 nouns regarding gendar. They are musculine, feminine and neuter. Musculine to feminine change; Naro ( man ) --> Narii (woman) Raajo(king ) --> Rajinii(queen) Should katamo change to katamii or katimii? Or is it neuter? If neuter why katamo is musculine and katamaa is feminine? Any Pali expert? With respect, Htoo Naing 50183 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:57am Subject: Sense desire = Razor blade with honey edge requested reference! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarah abbott who requested: >It includes the simile of the drop of honey on the edge of a blade... >Ven. Samahita, I didn't see any textual reference in this post ??? Pleasures obtained by contact at the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind all fade away and vanish instantly, when their contact ceases! They are all: Like a drop of honey on the edge of a razor blade: Short joy, but much pain! Like a show seen in a flash of lightening: Momentary & exceedingly fleeting! Like a drink made thin & tasteless: Dissatisfying, frustrating & disappointing! Like food all rotten inside or poisoned: Afflicting and causing problems later! Like a baited hook: First juicy, later torturing and tormenting & finally Fatal! Like an inner cage: Imprisoning, punishing, bonding, addicting and making mad! Like sleeping in an enemy's village: Dangerous, hazardous, treacherous & risky! Like a burning hollow tree: Agitated inside, feverish, frantic, violently painful! Like a chain of dry naked bare bones: Not healing any hunger, without nutrition! Like many days of drinking only salt water: Worsening any thirst & dehydrating! Please note the ceasing of sensation, whenever sensing & remember this danger! This is the primary hindrance to break, the first flood to cross: Sense-Desire...!!! _Source reference: Cariyapitaka Commentary, Treatise on the Paramis. _ Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 50184 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:11am Subject: Perceiving Transience ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Experience of the Change can Uproot both Ignorance & Egoism! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said: Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, then it eliminates all sense desire, it also eliminates all lust for becoming something else, it also eliminates all ignorance and it finally uproots this deep conceit that 'I Am'... Just as, bhikkhus, in the autumn, when the sky is clear & cloudless, the rising sun dispels all darkness from the space as it shines, beams and radiates, so too when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, then it eliminates all sense desire, it eliminates all lust for becoming something else, & it also eliminates all ignorance... Finally it even uproots this core conceit: That 'I Am'... !!! And how, bhikkhus, is perception of impermanence developed & cultivated so that it eliminates all sense desire, so that it eliminates lust for becoming something else, so that it eliminates ignorance & so that it finally uproots the conceit that 'I Am'?? Such is this form, such is the origin of form, such is the passing away of form... Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the passing away of feeling... Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is it's passing away ... Such is mental construction, such is the origin of construction, & it's passing away... Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is it's passing away... That is how the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sense desire, so that it eliminates all lust for becoming something else, so that it eliminates all ignorance & so that it finally uproots this conceit 'I Am'...!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:102 III 155-7 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Causes of Origin cause Emergence when Present, while Ceasing when they are Absent: The Body is caused by Food, Ignorance, Lust for Form, and Intention resulting in Form. Cause of Feeling is Contact, Ignorance, Lust for Feeling, & Intention resulting in Feeling. Cause of Perception is Contact, Ignorance, Lust for Perception, & Intention resulting in Perception. Cause of Construction is Contact, past Ignorance, Lust for Construction, and Intention resulting in Construction. The Cause of Consciousness is Mentality-&-Materiality, prior Ignorance, Lust for Mentality-&-Materiality, and Intention resulting in Consciousness! Ignorance is not knowing Suffering, The Cause of Suffering, The End of Suffering, nor The Noble 8-Fold Way to End all Suffering... Whether going above, across or back again, wherever he goes in this world let him carefully scrutinize the arising & ceasing of all constructed things... Itivuttaka 120: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50185 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' buddhistmedi... Hi, Steve and Htoo - Thank you both for your replies - especially the last one from Steve about the plural rule that is easier to understand. With appreciation, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Tep, > > Steve already done the job. Thanks Steve. I am just a beginner of > Pali study. I am not a Pali expert. When I read the initial chapter > of Pali grammar there writes_: > > --o for singular nominative, and --aa for plural nominative. > --a.m for singular accusative, and --e for plural accusative. > (snipped) 50186 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, No Control, Conventional Truth, and Ultimate Truth nilovg Hi Larry, We read in the Anapanasatisutta: 3] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, on the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony,[9] The Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by the Sangha of Bhikkhus. Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them thus: 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content with this progress. So arouse still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I shall wait here at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." ******* Invitation, pavaara.naa: After the rainy season, each monk invites the Sangha to point out his faults during the preceding period.Such ceremonies are helpful for a humble mind and induce one to forgive. Also on Uposatha days the monks should confess their transgressions. In the suttas we read that they should forgive each other. op 16-09-2005 00:48 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Is there anything in > the Vinaya about apologising for all one's misdeeds? 50187 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:37am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 192, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 192 Intro: The khandhas are classified as past, future, and present, as internal and external, as gross and subtle, as far and near. In the following section ruupakkhandha is explained as internal and external, and as gross and subtle. ****** Text Vis. 192. (iv)-(v) The division into 'internal and external' is as already stated (par.73). Besides, it is internal in the sense of one's own [75] that should be understood here as 'internal' and that of another person as 'external'. (vi)-(vii) 'Gross and subtle' are also as already stated (par.73). ----------------------------------- Note 75. Niyakajjhatta--'internally in the sense of one's own': four kinds of ajjhatta (internal, lit. 'belonging to oneself') are mentioned in the commentaries and subcommentaries (see DhsA. 46): gocarajjhatta--literally as range or resort (MA.iv,161; ii,90, 292), ajjhattajjhata--internally as such (Pm. 152), niyakajjhatta--internally in the sense of one's own (Ch. IV,141, X,114, this ref.: MA.iv,161), visayajjhatta--internally as objective field (MA.iv,160). ***** N: the Expositor (p. 60) explains different meanings of ajjhatta, internal. As to gocarajjhatta, internally as range or resort (gocara means object), this means Œinwardly rapt and concentrated¹, and it refers to concentration on a nimitta of samatha. As to ajjhattajjhata--internally as such, this is explained as : As to niyakajjhatta--internally in the sense of one's own, this refers to the inward aayatanas of the five senses and the mind. As to visayajjhatta--internally as objective field, this is explained as, ³This, Ananda, is the life fully attained by the Tathaagata, to wit, that he, by disregarding all provocative signs and symbols has reached the ajjhatta Void and therein abides, ajjhatta means Œrange¹ in the sense of Œdominion¹.> ------ As to the words of the Visuddhimagga, ŒThe division into 'internal and external' is as already stated (par.73), we read in Vis. Ch XIV, 73: < Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality).> N: the Pali word attabhaava is here translated as selfhood or personality. It can also be translated as individuality. The Expositor (II, p. 404) explains: ³Because it is grasped by foolish folk, as Œthis body or this collection of the five aggregates is my self,¹ therefore both the bodily frame or this collection of the five aggregates is called Œself-state¹ (attabhaava, i.e. personality). ŒIncluded in personality¹ is comprised in and depending on just that.¹ Individuality can be used to refer to the rupas in one¹s body. The Tiika explains: ------- The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 231) states : ----- As to the words of the Visuddhimagga: , the Tiika explains that this is stated according to the Suttanta method. Here the text refers to Œone¹s own¹ and another person in the conventional sense. Thus not according to the Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha dhammas. -------- As to gross and subtle, the Vis. 73 states: -------- N: The five senses and the sense objects that impinge on them are gross. Tangible object includes the three great elements of earth or solidity, fire or heat and wind or motion. Thus, twelve kinds of ruupas are gross. The other kinds of ruupa are subtle. The subtle ruupas are more difficult to penetrate than the gross ruupas. ------ Conclusion: As we read in Vis. 73, . Selfhood, attabhaava, or individuality can be used in conventional langauge as a way of reference to the khandhas of this individual, not of that individual. But as the Expositor explained, it is grasped by foolish folk, as Œthis body or this collection of the five aggregates is my self¹. Thus, we can speak of person or individual in a figurative sense, but in the ultimate sense there are only naama-dhammas and ruupa-dhammas. One of the meanings of internal is: The six internal aayatanas, bases are: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness (manaayatana), the six external aayatanas, bases are six classes of objects: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and mind-object (dhammaayatana), comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbaana. The eyesense (the cakkhu pasaada rúpa) is aayatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process . And the same for the other sense-organs. Because of the association or meeting of the inner aayatanas and the outer aayatanas objects are experienced by cittas. When we are seeing we do not realize that it is a dhamma that sees, we are bound to take seeing for self. The eyesense functions as the doorway for citta, but we wronly take citta for self. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XV, 15): < ...here, however, all formed bases (aayatanas) should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For they do not come from anywhere previous to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence (sabhaava, own characteristic), and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery [being exercisable over them] since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. > The aayatanas remind us that all our experiences are conditioned dhammas, that there is no self who sees, hears or experiences whatever object. ****** Nina. 50188 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - -----Original Message----- From: nidive To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:55:21 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. Hi Howard, > Assume a mental activity, W, that can operate at various levels. > Assume also that one occasion of W's operating is a condition for > future occasions of W to operating at higher levels. > Then there will be the *appearance* of W being a "thing" which > accumulates, and conventionally it would be quite reasonable to > speak of W as something that accumulates. I think that wisdom is a > prime example of such a conventionally accumulating "thing". This smells a bit like induction mathematics to me. The loop invariant is the assumed "proximate condition". The base case is the spark of wisdom that was ignited from the beginningless past. ------------------------------ Howard: If it is an induction, it seems to be one without a base case. In any event, it isn't quite that simple, because wisdom is but one condition for subsequent wisdom, and multiple conditions are required. But, yes, there is a central chain of conditioning that reminds one of induction. ----------------------------- Does reality behave in this order? ---------------------------- Howard: Not quite, IMO - certainly not in toto. --------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon ============================ With metta, Howard 50189 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. upasaka_howard Hi, James - -----Original Message----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:12:59 -0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ================================ > Assume a mental activity, W, that can operate at various levels. Assume also that one > occasion of W's operating is a condition for future occasions of W to operating at higher levels. > Then there will be the *appearance* of W being a "thing" which accumulates, and conventionally it > would be quite reasonable to speak of W as something that accumulates. I think that wisdom is a > prime example of such a conventionally accumulating "thing". > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for joining the thread. Yes, it may appear, conventionally, that wisdom is accumulating. But we aren't discussing that type of accumulation. We are discussing accumulation at the ultimate level relating to the mind stream. So, are you for or against wisdom accumulating at that level, regardless of the vissitudes of conventional reality? Metta, James ============================= Short answer: No, I do not believe that wisdom is some "thing" that accumulates. I believe that under appropriate conditions wisdom may arise at higher & higher levels, but there is nothing literally accumulating. I don't know whether this is the *sort* of answer you were looking for. If not, please say more. With metta, Howard 50190 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:26am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 275- Wrong View/di.t.thi (k) philofillet Hi Nina and all > One tends to cling to an idea of self who coordinates all the > different experiences. Someone may think that he can look at > someone else and listen to his words at the same time. This is a good and simple test. Without the Buddha's teaching, we would still believe that it is possible to see and hear at the same time, for that is the way, we are convinced, that we "experience" it. "We can't see something and be someone at the same time," is how I put it once, quite nicely, I think. > > The lists and classifications which we find in the Abhidhamma are not > meant to be used only for theoretical understanding, they are > meant to be used for the practice. They are reminders to be > aware of the reality which appears now so that wrong view can > be eradicated. Perhaps they help different people in different ways? I would say that for me rather than being "reminders to be aware of the reality which appears now" they are reminders of the anattaness of everything that is going on. There are so many cittas that are too subtle to be *aware* of, yet, but just knowing about them in theory helps to erode wrong view, I would think. For example, bhavanga cittas and other subtle cittas in sense door and mind door processes. I will never be aware of them as a reality,I assume, but knowing about them in theory helps to eradicate wrong view because it makes it clearer that there is no self deciding which cittas rise and fall. If the theory were laid down by a philosopher or a psychologist there wouldn't be this condition for eradication of wrong view, but if it is the teaching of the Buddha (or the early arahants) just knowing about the teaching helps to erode self-view, a little tiny bit. And helps to condition kusala in daily life, too. That man who stepped on my foot is not a man who stepped on my foot. There was hardness, there was citta that motivated the foot, there was vipaka, there was dosa. All this going on is not Phil and a man who stepped on Phil's foot. In a moment I understand that, and the next moment there is again Phil and the man stepping on Phil's foot. But there is less irritation, more equanimity, because who is there to get angry at? Angry at vipaka? Angry at hardness? Angry at lobha-mula citta that motivated the foot? I find it very liberating, this sort of thing, and quite consistently. There is no Phil, in a moment of understanding, and no man stepping on Phil's foot. And then there is again, but there is peace. Peace conditioned by intellectual understanding playing out in daily life, understanding that conditions patience and metta and other kusala. Just a little ramble there. No need to reply. Phil 50191 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:57am Subject: [dsg] Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (Phil, Ven Samahita, Frank & all), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Sarah: Not quite. I was saying that fully developed metta to this > > degree of jhana, encompassing the `universal' aspects and so on > > was/is only for > > those with the right conditions in place, i.e highly developed > > samatha based on right understanding. > > > > James: This sounds fine to me; I agree. Obviously it takes some > > skill. > ... > S: We've had a very long discussion on metta. In my google account it says > there have been 70 posts in the thread, I think (not just us of course). > So, I'm leaving the rest for now. James: That's fine. Let's drop it. > > On `real', I'd just like to refer you to B.Samahita's post #49268 with his > computer simile and also #50090 with the quote about the illusion of a > body being a `beguiler of fools' and `similar to a serial killer' etc.. If > there's anything you disagree with, perhaps you can discuss it further > with him until I get back from India. I only say this as I need to start > winding up threads now. I have some old threads with Tep and others which > have been very neglected which I'd also like to respond to next week if > not before. James: I'm not sure what 'real' you are referring to, but let's drop that too. > > James, I do appreciate our discussions and friendship. Surprisingly > perhaps, I don't feel passionate about the Dhamma at all. I tend to feel > passionate about mundane objects of my lobha, but when I reflect on the > Dhamma, it is very sobering I find. James: I think you have misunderstood my meaning of the word 'passionate'. I didn't mean it in a way to associate it with lobha. But let's drop that too. > > I perfectly understand that you and others may interpret suttas or aspects > of the teachings in quite a different way and that doesn't bother me in > the slightest. Indeed, I greatly respect your keen interest and especially > your keen questioning. I think this is the way, rather than any blind > acceptance of what anyone says. Thank you for all your help in this > regard. James: Your use of the phrases "keen interest" and "keen questioning" relate more to the "passionate" I was referring to earlier, but not worth discussing further. > > And as referred to with another friend off-list, we all get used to the > praise and blame on DSG which we should welcome as a test of our > equanimity (or lack of:) James: There is true equanimity and there is acting in a way to match preconceived notions of equanimity. But, we can drop that subject also. > > As Frank recently quoted under the subject heading `dhamma soup for the > hard to please':) > > Dhammapada 227-228: > > >This has come down from old, Atula, > > & not just from today: > > they find fault with one > > who sits silent, > > they find fault with one > > who speaks a great deal, > > they find fault with one > > who measures his words. > > There's no one unfaulted in the world. > > There never was, > > will be, > > nor at present is found > > anyone entirely faulted > > or entirely praised.< James: Nice quote. This teaching is to create the conditions to let go of praise and blame, not hold on to them like a martyr. Someone who had truly let go of praise and blame wouldn't even mention it. But, we can let that drop too. > > Thanks again, James James: You're welcome, but thanks for what? Nevermind, we can let that drop too. > > Metta or Loving Kindness, > > Sarah (aka Dr Spock:) > ==================== Metta, James (aka Dr. Bones ;-) 50192 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ============================= > Short answer: No, I do not believe that wisdom is some "thing" that accumulates. I don't know whether this is the *sort* of answer you were looking for. If > not, please say more. > > With metta, > Howard Nope, sounds good. Short answers are my favorite! ;-) Metta, James 50193 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] mlnease Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 2:26 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa [was Re: Metta Examples (Re: e-card from north of coff's Harbour...)] > Surprisingly > perhaps, I don't feel passionate about the Dhamma at all. I tend to feel > passionate about mundane objects of my lobha, but when I reflect on the > Dhamma, it is very sobering I find. Ditto. mike 50194 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Steve and Htoo - > > Thank you both for your replies - especially the last one from Steve > about the plural rule that is easier to understand. > > > With appreciation, > > > Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your correction back to 'katamo ca'. When I wrote that piece of Dhamma Thread I saw it IS (IS) writen as 'katamaa ca'. When Steve and you wrote on it, then I checked back in my reference and it IS (IS) still 'katamaa ca'. When I looked for at Metta.lk net, yes, it is 'katamo ca'. But whatever it is as I have said I was talking on magga citta. Example is sotapatti magga citta. When it arises, it is associated with perfect 8 paths. I am referring to that perfect 8-paths. That path cannot be 'ruupavacara ruupa jhaana' or 'aruupaavacara aruupa jhaana'. You may still deny this and you will refer again to suttas. That is sammaa-samaadhi is 1st,2nd, 3rd, 4th jhaana. If I say aruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi, will you deny because suttas do not say so? And magga cittas always (always) last a moment. That single moment can never be all 4 ruupa jhaanas. Very unlogical. Sammaa-samaadhi is in its full or perfect stage only when in magga or phala kaala or only when magga cittas or phala cittas are arising. When 1st jhaana is arising that 1st jhaana just takes jhaana object and not nibbana. As soon as it (a citta ) takes nibbana as its object that citta is no more taking 1st jhaana object. The same applies to other 7 jhaanas. Whatever it is opinions may be different and it is up to individuals. One more fact. Will you deny there were arahats who never had ruupa jhaana or aruupa jhaanas? With Metta, Htoo Naing 50195 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:47am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) 'katamaa ca... sammaa-samaadhi' htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: Hi Tep, Htoo and all, -- Tep: > I also checked the Pali at the metta.lk/tipitaka and found 'kattamo ca > bhikkhave summaasamaadhi' there too ! > > Question: Why are there only one sammaasankappo and one > sammaavaayaamo? > > I hope an expert in the Pali among us would explain all this for me. -- St: Definitely no expert, but I'll give it a go. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Steve for your giving it a go. I am a beginner of Pali study. I just finished a Pali grammer book and still I am not very confident in Paali usage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve said: I believe `katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasamaadhi' is correct. As to the number, all the following are singular. When katama is declined in the following context, it has to agree in gender, number and case with the noun it qualifies. katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaaditthi(Fem/Nom/sing)? (so view is female?) katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasankappo(Mas/Nom/sing)?(thinking male?) katamaa ca bhikkhave sammaavaacaa(Fem/Nom/sing)? (speech female?) > --- katamo ca bhikkhave sammaavaayaamo(Mas/Nom/sing)? (effort male?) katamaa ca bhikkhava sammaasati(Fem/Nom/sing)? (mindfulness female?) katamo ca bhikkhave sammaasamaadhi(Mas/Nom/sing)?(concentra. male?) If you look at the above, all the masculine nouns have katamo, which is declined to agree with the masculine/nominative/singular noun it qualifies, ie sankappo, vaayaamo and samadhi. Katamaa is also singular and declined to agree with the feminine/nominative/singular noun it qualifies. Corrections welcome! Rgrds Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I am just a beginner and not an expert my thoughts are not for correction. Example; The root word for 'human being' is 'nara'. 1. a man = naro (nominative) 2. men = naraa (nominative in plural); not female. Female is narii. 3. a man = nara.m (accusative) 4. men = nare ( accusative in plural) I think there are other rules as well. That is changing of gender. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50196 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > The correct Pali I believe is 'katamo ca bhikkhave sammasamaadhi'. > And I already wrote about this in a previous post. > > Now I just want to briefly answer your comment below. > > > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, the context already says that there are many. They are 1st > > jhaana, 2nd jhaana and so on. > > > Htoo: > > > > Dear Tep, personal belief is up to you. In both translation there > > describe many. 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana etc. You can say > > that sammaa-samaadhi is just one. If this is the case it is ekaggataa > > cetasika and it is right to say that there is only one. Tep: The 1st through the 4th jhanas together are considered as a single thing called samma-samaadhi. Same way as an automobile that consists of 4 tyres, 1 engine, 1 steering wheel, etc. Regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, well, 1st through 4th jhaana do not arise when magga citta is arising. While 4 jhaanas are 4 separate states they never can arise when sotapatti or sakadaagaami or anaagaami or arahatta magga citta arises. When magga citta arises its object is nibbana and not any of jhaana's object. All 4 ruupa jhaanas have pannatti as their object. Panatti does not have any anicca, dukkha, anatta. 1st and 3rd aruupa jhaanas have pannatti as their object while 2nd and 4th aruupa jhaana have citta as their object. The object of 2nd aruupa jhaana is 1st aruupa jhaana citta. The object of 4th aruupa jhaana is 3rd aruupa jhaana citta. Apart from 2nd and 4th aruupa jhaanas, all other jhaanas have pannatti as their object. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50197 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > The correct Pali I believe is 'katamo ca bhikkhave sammasamaadhi'. > And I already wrote about this in a previous post. > > Now I just want to briefly answer your comment below. > > > Htoo: > > Dear Tep, the context already says that there are many. They are 1st > > jhaana, 2nd jhaana and so on. > > > Htoo: > > > > Dear Tep, personal belief is up to you. In both translation there > > describe many. 1st jhaana, 2nd jhaana, 3rd jhaana etc. You can say > > that sammaa-samaadhi is just one. If this is the case it is ekaggataa > > cetasika and it is right to say that there is only one. > > > > Tep: The 1st through the 4th jhanas together are considered as a > single thing called samma-samaadhi. Same way as an automobile > that consists of 4 tyres, 1 engine, 1 steering wheel, etc. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and all, A single piece of dhamma does not work for all. There are many aspects of dhamma. That is why Dhamma is said to be deep, large, wide and infinite. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50198 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: (Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 (2nd session) 1 htootintnaing Dear Sukin (and all), It is OK. Now this is 2nd session of long discussion 3. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, I don't know how long our discussion is going to continue. ============================ Sukin: > I am not saying that all outward conditions are the same; the hell > plane after all is in direct contrast to the heavenly plane. And the human plane is said to be best for the development of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: ??? I am thinking this is almost the same implication of 'good place' 'good time'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Same perhaps, if we look at both with conventional understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin. Please remember that people around us including DSG members all live in the conventional world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The hell plane is the result of akusala kamma, so little or no possibility of panna arising. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Brothal workers also have little possibility of pannaa arising. Ambapaali, Siirimaa etc were just rare examples and do not generalize them as general application. Otherwise loose girls would be happy to stay in brothals because there is possibility of satipatthaana arising according to you. But the case is opposite. Sex workers do have full of lust. Maybe positive or negative. When negative they are in the mood of angriness. Unsatifactoriness in their livelihood. I do not think sex workers are happy and satisfied with their job and developing satipatthaana. Moreover, those who utilize those sex services are also full of lust. There is no possibilities of arising of satipatthaana in those users. If they had a good mind or kusala mind they would not have gone there to destroy the morality of those sex workers. So avoiding some places is not ditthi. Are you using those places like boxing, discos, pubs, fishing, hunting while you intend to do satipatthaana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In the heaven plane, life is too good and too long to arouse any sense of urgency. The human plane is the result of kusala kamma so there can be panna, and no one experiences too many kusala vipaka continuously. Yes, today we are in the human plane and the Teachings are available, extremely rare chance to happen. Thinking this can arouse a sense of urgency. But can this be independent of panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma is dhamma. They cannot be pushed or influenced. We are in human realm. This is rare event. We have to finish arahatship right now. No. This is not the way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And if panna does arise, is it not just that, i.e. a momentary arising? Does panna condition an idea of `doing' something about it? Whatever follows from this realization, is not the `worth' of that dependent on whether or not it is with panna, whether of vipassana or samatha kind? Is there any bhavana when there is no understanding? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are just holding 'the word understanding'. Bhavanaa is kusala. Kusala is associated with beautiful cetasikas. Among kusala cittas there are 4 cittas that do not have any pannaa. Apart from that all kusala cittas DO have pannaa as a cetasika. When bhavanaa are rightly done there is no reason that panna does not arise. Panna has to arise. But there may be kusala which do not have pannaa. They are called naana-vippayutta cittas. They are dvihetuka cittas. There are 22 dvihetuka cittas. 10 dvihetuka cittas are akusala and they are 8 lobha muula cittas and 2 dosa muula cittas. 12 cittas are dviuhetuka sobhana cittas. They are 4 naana-vippayutta cittas of kusala, vipaaka, and kiriyaa. Bhavanaa is a form of kusala in action. Daana is kusala in action. Siila is kusala in action. Bhavanaa is kusala in action. Bhavanaa mainly arise at mind door. As it is kusala it may be performed by 8 mahaakusala cittas. Among 8 mahaakusala cittas, 4 cittas are naana- vippayutta cittas. That is they do not have any understanding. This does not mean there is ditthi. But just lack of panna. But these 4 kusala cittas condition future arising of 4 tihetuka kusala cittas. Is *understanding* (which you think it as *pannaa*) very important in kusala? With Metta, Htoo Naing And if not, is there any good > in encouraging them, especially in light of the fact that the purpose of > following the Buddha is to eradicate all kinds of akusala? > > But again this is all `thinking' and if it encourages more thinking, then > indeed we are missing the point. What use is it to argue about whether > which place is better or worse for the development of satipatthana? I > don't even like to think about "anywhere and anytime" because even this > is concept and can encourage the idea that `self' can choose to develop > sati at anytime. So even if there were a momentary realization that this > life is precious in terms of the opportunity to develop satipatthana, can > the `self' then *do* anything about that? > =============================== > > Htoo: > > When existing in the place (on this earth of human world) do > > satipatthaana. > > > > When it is the time in human realm do satipatthana. > > Sukinder: > Yes if indeed there was control over the arising of citta, then it would > make sense to say, "do satipatthana", but is there? The conditions are > in place, in terms of potential objects of satipatthana, and just knowing > this theoretically is not enough. There must be the accumulated panna > to actually condition kusala citta with panna to arise and take a > paramattha dhamma as object. But we cannot will this to happen. > ========================== > > Htoo: > > A. Where is satipatthaana more frequent? > > > > a) hell realms > > b) animal realms > > c) ghost realms > > d) human realm > > e) deva realms > > f) brahma realms > > Sukinder: > In principle and according to theory, d. > =============================== > > Htoo: > > B. Where is satipatthaana more frequent? > > > > a) brothals > > b) discos > > c) wars > > d) retreats > > e) hurricane > > f) tsunami > > Sukinder: > Now this is different, because we don't know the conditions, whether > kamma or whatever other conditions, that we are where we are at any > given moment. We can talk in general about kamma being the cause of > human birth, but can we say the same about moment to moment > realities? By very strong lobha we may be driven to a brothel, but we > may also have developed enough panna to condition sati at whatever > level. And so by pakatupanissaya paccaya, sati may arise. On the other > hand we can also by other conditions, find ourselves at a meditation > retreat and here too by pakatupanissaya paccaya, sati may arise. > However in either situation, there is no saying what cittas are going to > arise and what kind of vipaka is going to condition what javana. > > True, given that the accumulation of akusala being far greater than > kusala and panna, the chances of the former conditioning is far greater, > but this applies equally to all situations a to f don't you think? And > though it may be true that dosa would most likely arise during tsunamis > and lobha for brothels for example, this does not mean "sati" is going to > arise at retreats! It may be just *weaker* and less frequent dosa and > lobha. But what about "ditthi", the main enemy? I see however that you > factor in "teacher" as well below, so I'll comment more there. > ===================================== > > Htoo: > > It is right that satipatthaana does not depend on *chosen time* and > > *chosen place*. But could you please answer above 2 questions? > > Sukinder: > I doubt my answers above are satisfactory…… > ========================================= > > > Sukin: > > > > It is natural for us to react with dosa to noisy places, and with > > lobha to peace and quiet. And it is said that lobha is harder to > > perceive as an enemy, compared to dosa. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: Both lobha and dosa are the object of satipatthaana. > > > > But 'will satipatthaana more frequently be arising when in hurricane, > > in tsunami, in torture, in wars?' > > Sukinder: > Better not speculate, perhaps? > ================================= > > > Sukin: > > > > So do you think it is easier at the retreat for sati to arise > > especially with preconceived ideas and expectations? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > For retreats-non-believers the answer will be already there in their > > mind. > > > > It is not *the retreat* that helps. It is *the learned teacher* that > > matters. > > Sukinder: > It is really not a matter of not believing in retreats, but about thinking > that there is a better time and place and acting upon the thought. > Regarding teachers, I think we really go there with absolutely *no* idea > about whether the teacher really knows or not, we take it all on faith. > What is our understanding with regard to the concept of retreat and > meditation instructors? I think it is vague and blurry, mixed with hope > and expectation. And given the level of our ignorance, wouldn't the wise > and compassionate thing to do is to teach the Teachings so as to gain > some understanding of what Dhamma really is? Because once there is a > degree of understanding there grows a corresponding level of > confidence not so much in the meditation teacher, but in the Dhamma > itself. And this will allow for a level of independence in the student from > where he wouldn't then have to follow like sheep any teacher, but gain > instead the necessary understanding needed to being a lamp unto > himself. Isn't this the purpose of the Teachings? > > Actually this is why I once started the discussion about what a beginning > student of dhamma needs to hear, but I won't go into that now. > =========================================== > > Sukin: > > > > And what about the other side, i.e. the tendency to lobha "sexy > > voice", "brothels" etc. being more than in a retreat? Same here, if > > seen with wrong understanding, then the retreat will only serve as > > conditions for more lobha. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Lobha is also the object for satipatthaana. > > > > That lobha may be related to sensuous things. > > That lobha may be related to non-sensuous things. > > > > Brothals do not have satipatthaana teachers while retreats are led by > > satipatthaana teachers. > > > > As lobha is the object of satipatthaana and you also think retreats > > are not of your taste then you can choose brothals or anything you > > like except retreats. > > Sukinder: > I hope you are now clear that I object not to retreats, but to the idea of > choosing. Though of course, when it comes to "retreats", so much > wrong view is attached to this concept, that yes, retreat does become a > special problem. ;-) So I choosing brothel or whatever place is definitely > silly. > ================================== > > > > Htoo: > > > Did you say 'Culapanthaka did not have ditthi before he became an > > > > arahat on that day? > > > > Sukinder: > > > > I suppose he must have, but I was trying to distinguish his case from > > the more obvious cases. In his case I believe the primary hindrance > > was moha rooted in uddacca and that moha with doubt must have > arisen > > relatively less. I was distinguishing mainly with modern day > > Buddhists who flock like sheep to meditation retreats mostly with > > miccha ditthi. > > =============================== > > Htoo: > > > > So you believe Culapanthaka did have ditthi (including self- identity). > > Sarah aslo said 'self-view' has to be released before the start of > > journey. Please refer to our very old discussions. Actually ditthi is > > killed and eradicated at sotapatti magga door. > > > > I would not discuss about retreats. > > Sukinder: > I don't get your point. Please explain. > ======================================== > > > Sukinder: > > > > Saddha must be with panna. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Here *must* comes from your own thought. There are many > saddhaa. Not > > all saddhaa are with pannaa. This does not mean that those saddhaa > > without pannaa are not to be developed. Any saddha is good. If with > > pannaa it is much much more better. > > Sukinder: > You left out what followed this part. In that you would see that I did not > deny saddha with respect to other levels of kusala. However I was > hinting at the possibility of not even developing that if the Teachings is > wrongly understood. Allow me to elaborate: > > I think many people are attracted to Buddhism genuinely to develop > more kusala. However because they do not understand correctly at the > pariyatti level the Teachings, they may grow to be attached to > developing kusala. And here `self' is at work. So much so many even > want and do become monks, but this is not the correct motivation. You > can't start the journey of eradicating kilesas without knowing and > recognizing self-view. > > For similar reasons, many others go to retreats, some with the idea of > experiencing less "sense impressions". But little do they realize that > when they have such thoughts, at that moment they do *not* > understand the Buddha's teachings. The Dhamma is meant to teach us > to understand any and every experience as "dhatu" and "anatta" and not > simply to prefer the experience of one type of dhamma over another, > i.e. kusala to akusala. You can't understand dhamma as dhamma if it is > all the time being covered up by `self' in one form or the other. > > So for a person who genuinely wants to develop kusala but > misunderstands the Buddha's teachings, his intentions will be so mixed > up with wrong view that I think there is a danger of ending up being > neither here nor there. > > Again this is too long, hope you don't mind. > > Metta, > > Sukinder. 50199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time flies by and the danger in death. A question of language. nilovg Hi James, Are you kidding? In Pali the negation does not always designate something negative, on the contrary. Take nibbaana: ni is a negation. nibbaana is also called nirodha and viraga, vi is also a negation. You looked up: lobha: attachment. Alobha is detachment. I teach you (but I know that you are familiar with some terms) one other term: dosa, aversion or anger. adosa is non-anger or mettaa. Lobha and dosa are unwholesome roots. Adding a: alobha and adosa, and you have the contrary to them, thus very positive. These are beautiful roots. I better stop at this. Lodewijk was also worried about Amr's accidents. Nina. op 15-09-2005 23:58 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Hmmm...in the Abhidhamma- > system metta is given the description of 'non-hatred'? I didn't > know that. That makes metta practically nothing, a non-entity.