50400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner27-Contact /Phassa(m) nilovg Hi Phil, good you go back, we can always do that. op 17-09-2005 16:44 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > >> iv What is the difference between eye-contact and the eye-door? > > Eye contact is nama and eye door is rupa. The contact, seeing and > form all arise at the eye door? So the eye door actually arises > before the triad of seeing, form and contact? ------- N: Not quite. The ruupas of eyesense and visible object have to arise before seeing, because ruupa is weak at its arising moment. Seeing and contact that accompanies it, have the eyesense as physical base, vatthu. Eyesense functions as base for seeing (and its accompanying cetasikas, phassa etc.) only, and it functions as doorway for all the cittas arising in the eye-door process. Visible object impinges on the eyedoor, but it does not arise at the eyedoor. --------- >> v Are `mano-samphassa?E(mind-contact) and the mind-door >> different from each other? > Ph: Mind door is also nama, I guess. I don't know how it could be > rupa. Or is it "heart base" which is rupa in some subtle way? Or > mind door doubles as another citta - the last bhavanga before mind > door processes arise? ---------- N: Yes, mind door is another citta - the last bhavanga before mind > door process begins. Heartbase is the physical base for the cittas other than the five sense cognitions. It is not a doorway. Mental contact is phassa accompanying the cittas other than the sense cognitions. It is not boring you ask again, I myself also have to look up things again. -------- >> x Is a concept an object that phassa can contact? > Ph: I sense the answer is no but I want to say yes. A concept is a > mental object. If there isn't phassa, the nama that knows it > (thinking?) can't know it. Concept must be known, by thinking, and > to be known there must be phassa, it seems to me...but I think it's > wrong. ------ N: It is right. Each citta needs phassa, whatever object it experiences. ----------> >> xi Why must there be phassa with every citta? >> ***** N: Because every citta experiences an object and it needs the support of phassa. Nina. 50401 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 191, and Tiika, Part II. nilovg Hi Sarah, thank you for giving this example again, I had forgotten. When I read this passage I just thought that it must have been a point of discussion at that time. Nina. op 20-09-2005 11:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > When I > read your posts it reminded me of the story which I also heard RobK refer > to recently (if I recall from the Dhp commentary) about how a son of a > merchant in the time of a previous Buddha turned into a woman for having > insulted Mahakaccayana. All his masculine features disappeared as he > became a woman and then had two children. it links up with our threads on > apologies and forgiveness, because it was only after apologising and > asking for forgiveness that he returned to being a man. 50402 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 555 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. 1. ruupa-kkhandhaa or aggregates of materials 2. vedana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of feeling 3. sanna-kkhandhaa or aggregates of perception 4. sankhaara-kkhandhaa or aggregates of formation 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness 5. vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness They are 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness. They can be grouped into the following way. 1. cittas of sensuous sphere (kaamaavacara cittas) 2. cittas of fine material sphere (ruupaavacara cittas) 3. cittas of non-material sphere (aruupaavacara cittas) 4. cittas beyond three-spheres (lokuttaraa cittas) There are 54 cittas of sensuous sphere. There are 15 cittas of fine material sphere. There are 12 cittas of non-material sphere. There are 8 cittas that are not of any of these three sphere. They are supramundane consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50403 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 191, and Tiika, Part II. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > thank you for giving this example again, I had forgotten. .... Now I've checked the full account and have the reference in the Dhp commentary. In Burlingame's translation it is given as 'Mother of Two and Father of Two', commentary to verse Dhp, verse 43 Here's the summary from Rob's website which I'll quote in full as it's so relevant to this section of Vism and the apology/forgiveness discussion: http://www.vipassana.info/b.htm#Soreyya Verse 43 III (9) The Story of Soreyya "While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (43) of this book, with reference to Soreyya, the son of a rich man of Soreyya city. On one occasion, Soreyya accompanied by a friend and some attendants was going out in a luxurious carriage for a bath. At that moment, Thera Mahakaccayana was adjusting his robes outside the city, as he was going into the city of Soreyya for alms-food. The youth Soreyya, seeing the golden complexion of the thera, thought, "How I wish the thera were my wife, or else that the complexion of my wife were like that of his." As the wish arose in him, his sex changed and he became a woman. Very much ashamed, he got down from the carriage and ran away, taking the road to Taxila. His companions missing him, looked for him, but could not find him. Soreyya, now a woman, offered her signet ring to some people going to Taxila, to allow her to go along with them in their carriage. On arrival at Taxila, her companions told a young rich man of Taxila about the lady who came along with them. The young rich man, finding her to be very beautiful and of a suitable age for him, married her. As a result of this marriage two sons were born; there were also two sons from the previous marriage of Soreyya as a man. One day, a rich man's son from the city of Soreyya came to Taxila with five hundred carts. Lady-Soreyya recognizing him to be an old friend sent for him. The man from Soreyya city was surprised that he was invited, because he did not know the lady who invited him. He told the lady-Soreyya that he did not know her, and asked her whether she knew him. She answered that she knew him and also enquired after the health of her family and other people in Soreyya city. The man from Soreyya city next told her about the rich man's son who disappeared mysteriously while going out for a bath. Then the Lady-Soreyya revealed her identity and related all that had happened, about the wrongful thoughts with regard to Thera Mahakaccayana, about the change of sex, and her marriage to the young rich man of Taxila. The man from the city of Soreyya then advised the lady-Soreyya to ask pardon of the thera. Thera Mahakaccayana was accordingly invited to the home of Soreyya and alms-food was offered to him. After the meal, the lady-Soreyya was brought to the presence of the thera, and the man from Soreyya told the thera that the lady was at one time the son of a rich man from Soreyya city. He then explained to the thera how Soreyya was turned into a female on account of his wrongful thoughts towards the respected thera. Lady-Soreyya then respectfully asked pardon of Thera Mahakaccayana. The thera then said, "Get up, I forgive you." As soon as these words were spoken, the woman was changed back to a man. Soreyya then pondered how within a single existence and with a single body he had undergone change of sex and how sons were born to him, etc. And feeling very weary and repulsive of all these things, he decided to leave the household life and joined the Order under the thera. After that, he was often asked, "Whom do you love more, the two sons you had as a man or the other two you had as a wife?" To them, he would answer that his love for those born of the womb was greater. This question was put to him so often, he felt very much annoyed and ashamed. So he stayed by himself and with diligence, contemplated the decay and dissolution of the body. He soon attained arahatship together with the Analytical Insight. When the old question was next put to him he replied that he had no affection for any one in particular. Other bhikkhus hearing him thought he must be telling a lie. When reported about Soreyya giving a different answer, the Buddha said, "My son is not telling lies, he is speaking the truth. His answer now is different because he has now realized arahatship and so has no more affection for anyone in particular. By his well-directed mind my son has brought about in himself a well-being which neither the father nor the mother can bestow on him." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 43: Not a mother, nor a father, nor any other relative can do more for the well-being of one than a rightly-directed mind can. At the end of the discourse many attained Sotapatti Fruition." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= 50404 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? htootintnaing Dear Ken H, These questions arose because I was thinking about some people who hold the tough view that *ONLY* 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th ruupa jhaanas in a whole is sammaa-samaadhi. Please see below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: Hi Htoo, I said to Swee Boon: ------------------------------------------ > > > The only correction I would make is; it would be *mundane* - not > Noble - right concentration at those moments. Noble (Ariyan) right > concentration occurs only in moments of supramundane Path- > consciousness (which have Nibbana as object). -------------------------------------------- Ken H: And you responded: ----------------------------------------------------------- H: > May I ask some questions here? > 1) Is 1st ruupa jhaana through 4th ruupa jhaana mundane or > supramundane 'right concentration'? > ------------------------------------------------------------ Ken H: I would say it was neither. Samadhi cetasika is "right" concentration when it forms part of the ariyan eightfold path. It is also right concentration when it forms part of the mundane fivefold path (satipatthana). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me, your answer here is OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: When samadhi cetasika forms part of jhana (or part of any lesser kusala consciousness) it is not "right" in the sense of being part of the Middle Way: it is right only in the ordinary sense - of being not wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a good answer. It is not wrong. So it may well be called sammaa-samaadhi. I agree. Yes, sammaa-samaadhi of NEP only arises at the time of arising of magga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > 2) What is the object of 1st ruupa jhaana through 4th ruupa > jhaana? >-------------------- Ken H: Here, I must try to remember your "Dhamma Threads" in which you said the object was: a concept in the case of the first jhana; the first-jhana citta in the case of the second jhana; a concept in the third jhana and third-jhana citta in the fourth jhana. Is that near enough? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can understand your answer. But I included 'ruupa'. Your answer is for 'aruupa jhaana' and not for 'ruupa jhaana'. All ruupa jhaanas take pannatti. 2 of 4 aruupa jhaanas take citta and 2 other take pannatti. This question is just for confirmation. I posted this question that 1st through 4th ruupa jhaanas are all taking pannatti. When taking pannatti there is no reason to see any anicca, dukkha, anatta. For this, pannatti has to be left and jhaana cittas are contemplated and then there see anicca, dukkha, anatta on jhaana cittas. This seeing has the power of jhaana because they (cittas) do have jhaana factors. But the object is no longer pannatti. So they are not exactly 'ruupavacara ruupa jhaana cittas'. But they do have the power of jhaana and their concentration is already good to see nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > 3) What is the object of supramundane 'right concentration'? --------------------------------- Ken H: Nibbana. ------------------ > H: > 4) Are the objects the same when one is in jhaana and when one > is in (magga)/ phala? ----------------- Ken H: No, Nibbana is always the object of magga and phala citta. And it is the object of those cittas exclusively: it is never the object of jhana citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So cittas taking nibbana are all lokuttara cittas or supramundane consciousness. The samaadhi in those cittas is sammaa- samaadhi of NEP. Jhaana cittas do have their own object. As I said above all ruupa jhaana do take pannatti as their object. There are 25 different object that can be the object of 1st ruupa jhaana and all these 25 objects are not nibbana. 2nd, 3rd, 4th ruupa jhaana take fewer objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > With respect, > Htoo Naing -------------------------- Ken H: Thanks, Htoo, I am sure those questions were asked with your usual respect, but may I ask where they were leading? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually I am taking on 'actual moment of magga citta'. At that time there is no 1st ruupa jhaana citta, no 2nd ruupa jhaana citta, no 3rd ruupa jhaana citta, no 4th ruupa jhaana citta. When nibbana is just going to be seen 'any other objects have to be dropped and nibbana has to be directed or attended. Those cittas who are attending nibbana are no more ruupaavaraca ruupa jhaana cittas. When sammaa-samaadhi is preached there are many description and they have not to be a single one. That is why I wrote there are many mental states that have the power of jhaana. If ruupavacara ruupa jhaana are sammaa-samaadhi and no other mentalk states are sammaa-samaadhi then what about aruupaavacara aruupa jhaana cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: What did I say in my post to Swee Boon that prompted those particular questions? Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Ken H, do not think deeply. I just pop in when you say *mundane* and then I got an idea to wrote those reply. That is that. With respect, Htoo Naing 50405 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:38am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 543 ) Magga, phala, and nibbana htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Today, in just one day only, you wrote me 4 emails! And the last one > gave me an indigestion, friend, since you discussed magga, phala > and nibbana (that are far away from my domain of knowledge). > > Here is a list of the highlights from your email messages : < snip> and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas. > When *nibbana* is directed, then I say that jhaana is released. That > is not the power of jhaana but the object of jhaana. Because object > has now to change to nibbana and no more on *pannatti*. etc. etc. Tep: Give me some time to digest the tough material and come back for a friendly discussion with you on jhana, magga, phala, and nibbana. The last three items are beyond me, so I will be learning from you. Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, If all 555 Dhamma Threads have been read *the indigestion* will be relieved. I will be looking forward to seeing your discussion. With regards, Htoo Naing 50406 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: Overdose htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: James wrote to Dan: Hi Dan, Htoo's guns aren't too smoking- more like water pistols! ;-)) Metta, James -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear James and Dan, Thanks for the replies. I will reply Dan's post here together with Jame's post. Yes, of course. my guns are not smoking. They are water pistols. Actually all cool water is in all those guns. With respect, Htoo Naing 50407 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 277- Wrong View/di.t.thi (m) mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma.... Hi there... the answer provided is based on my understanding and could be wrong. Do corrent me if the answer provided is not accurate. Answer as below. --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > > Questions. > > i What is an example of wrong practice which people > may > follow today? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Too many ranging from even breaking the 5 precepts like killing, take what is not given, sexual misconduct, etc. > > ii Why is the proximate cause of wrong view “not to > see > ariyans”? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Ariyas gain 16 knowledge (Nana). Sotapan already eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters which are 1. Views (wrong views) 2. Rites and Ritual 3. Doubts That's why no wrong views on ariyas. > > iii What is the difference between annihilationism, > the view > that a self will be annihilated after death, and the > seeing of > the impermanence of conditioned phenomena? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): I would think 1. Annihilationism = A practice of non wanting the mind and matter as one see nama/rupa as a burden just like Rupa/Arupa planes. 2. The view that a self will be annihilated after death = there is no future birth after death so no need to do any kusala or can do a lot of akusala kamma as death is the end of everything. 3. The seeing of impermanence of conditioned phenomena = is in fact 3rd Nana (the knowledge of the arising and ceasing of the past, present, future as impermanence, suffering and non-self). > > iv In which way can one think of past lives with > wrong view? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): 18 Views dealing with the past 4 Views holding that self (atta) and the world are eternal(sassata ditthi). 4 Views holding that self (atta) and the world are soem eternal some not (ekaccasasata ditthi). 4 Views holding that the world is finite or infinite or neither (antanantika ditthi). 4 wriggling Views (suspension of judgement to all question - amaravikkhepiha ditthi). 2 Views holding that the self and the world would have arisen without a cause (adhiccasamupannika ditthi). > > v Personality view can be eradicated through > mindfulness of > nåma and rúpa. Why is that so? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Mindfulness or Right mindfulness have the 2 function: 1. To recollect (example: Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, Sila, Generosity, Devata, Death, Body, Breathing, Calmness.) 2. To Valuate (what is advantage to know, do or say and not to know, do or say). I would think there are certain extend Right Mindfulness play an important role but I would also think that 8 Fold path is correct practice to eradicate Wrong View. 8 Fold Path start from Right View and end with Right Concentration for many many rounds. This means that eradication of wrong views also start round after round until you attain 1st sainthood. > > vi Why does one not cling to speculative theories > anymore > when personality belief has been eradicated? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): When one see Anica, Dukha, Anata, Nama/Rupa, one would know that only Nama/Rupa exist (The ultimate Truth). One would be able to differentiate between conventional and ultimate truth. However Nibbana is still far away as one must attain all 16 knowledge (Nana) to attain stage of Sotapan. > > vii When there is no awareness is there wrong view > all the > time? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Wrong View only can be eradicated fully when one attain 1 Sainthood (stage of Sotapan). One can have awareness and still have wrong views unless one is min a Sotapan. > > viii What is the difference between ignorance and > wrong view? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Moha or ignorance is a cetasika. It is a condition dhamma which arises if the condition permits. Panna or Wisdom is also a cetasika and also a condition Dhamma. If one do a kusala action and Wisdom arises, one can still have wrong view unless the one is a sotapan with will fully eradicate wrong views). View is what we understand or see the world, self, stuff etc. > > ix Why are the three kinds of wrong view which are > akusala > kamma patha particularly dangerous? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): No matter how much Kusala patha one do, one can still be born in suffering planes especially hell if one has views and/or greed. And this 3 heavy Wrong View will lead one to Apaya World. > > x Why is it wrong to believe that we can see and > hear at the > same time? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): there is NO 2 cittas arising at the same time. One think one can hear and see at the same time is because one is not aware that by the time one see and hear, so many cittas has arised and falled. Just like is the river the same? The river will always look the same but it is NOT the same as it will never be the same water that flow each time you look at it. > > xi Does the fact that wrong view has not been > eradicated have > any influence on our morality (síla)? 9/20/2005 (mr39515): depanding on how heavy is that wrong view. The heavier one will most probably cause akusala kamma patha which the not so gross type of wrong view may just have no relation to our action thus not affecting Sila. Sila is a practice and one of the first few kusala kamma. Retification of views is a much heaver kusala kamma. (the last I believe of the 10 kusala kamma). Metta mr39515 > > ***** > [Wrong View (di.t.thi) finished!] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== <...> 50408 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:09am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / A Discussion Format for #50363. htootintnaing Dear Tep, I think, it is OK provided I have enough time. Here is segment 1 discussion starts to open. With regards, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dea Htoo : In order to facilitate our long discussion that may stem from your message #50363 let me partition your "thesis proposal" into numbered segments as shown below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have not touched all 13 segments. But it is OK regarding the format. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: After this step I'll ask questions and/or discuss each segment one at a time, until we are through with whole post. Finally, we'll put everything we have discussed together and make a conclusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good idea. Continue. But remember that there is no self who is doing these things so there may or may not be conclusion or final agreement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: This is a systematic approach to our complex discussion process, which I hope to work well. If you feel like changing this proposed scheme in any way you'd like, then do it. Once we have an agreed- upon format, then I shall go ahead with Question 1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I have been proceeding. But there is no self. So there is no control. Segment 1 will soon be started. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: There are 13 partitions in your message #50363 (shown below) that I think are relevant for discussion. Please feel free to combine, delete, or expand them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I may well be expanding rather than deleting or combining. But as there is no control on dhamma I cannot guarantee *the accomplishment* of these works. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: 1. When 'the object' is not considered while sammaa-samaadhi is studied,then the power of concentration will be the same that is almost the same in both cases of genuine ruupa jhaanas and lokuttaraa cittas. So it can be said that magga cittas arise with the power of jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is segment 1 or partition 1 that you have made. It is OK. You can ask more or discuss on this matter or expand further. Dhamma-wise There is a citta along with vitakka, vicaara, piiti, vedana ( as sukha-vedana), ekaggataa and other sankhaara dhamma like manasikaara, jivitindriya, phassa, cetanaa, sannaa and other sobhana cetasika. These dhammas do exist in 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. sotapatti magga citta 3. sotapatti phala citta 4. sakadaagaami magga citta 5. sakadaagaami phala citta 6. anaagaami magga citta 7. anaagaami phala citta 8. arahatta magga citta 9. arahatta phala citta 10.naana-sampayutta kaamaavacara mahaakusala cittas in upacaara jhaana If object is not considered, then all these cittas will have similar degree of concentration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing 50409 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:37am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / A Discussion Format for #50363. htootintnaing Continuation: Tep summarised Htoo's points as 2 ( of 13 points): 2. But magga cittas are never jhaana-cittas even though all magga cittas and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas. Ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana-cittas and aruupavacara aruupa jhaana-cittas are never classified or never said as supramundane consciousness or lokuttaraa cittas. If so, both Alaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta would have attained lokuttaraa cittas and attained nibbana. But they were not. Instead they both were reborn in aruupa realms (Alaara in 3rd realm and Udaka in 4th realm) where there is no eyes to see Sammaasambuddha and no ear to listen The Buddha's Dhamma. So they cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta when now they are in 3rd and 4th aruupa realm respectively. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This part of my post will be a bit heavy for you. I think you will have many questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary on Htoo's post; point 3 of 13: 3. As soon as The Buddha finished satta-sattaaha or 7-weeks phala- samaapatti, He started to consider whom to preach and remembered 2 teachers. But they were no longer there in human realm or not in any listenable realms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha. You will be asking textual support. I would say no. But it is in Buddhavamsa. The Buddha preached this in his 2nd year of Buddhahood. The first was with panca-vaggi, with Yassa and his followers, 1000 hermits of (Uruvela Kassapa, Nadi Kassapa, and Gaya Kassapa ). After that all those, who were sent to call The Buddha to Kapilavuttu became monks. Only in the 2nd year it was successful to invite The Buddha to Kapilavuttu. There The Buddha preached Buddhavamsa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary on Htoo's post point 4 of 13: 4. Magga cittas all have the power of jhaana. But magga cittas are not jhaana cittas. Phala cittas are all exactly EXACTLY the same as their corresponding magga cittas. The only difference is that they are vipaaka cittas while magga cittas are lokuttaraa kusala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The point might be *the power of jhaana*. Sometime ago I said magga cittas arise in the vicinity of jhaana cittas. Carry on and you can ask any questions. But do not ask any Sutta's number. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary on Htoo's post point 5 of 13: 5. Another difference is that phala cittas never come before their corresponding magga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will pre-explain this again. By the name phala means 'fruit'. It is the result. It is the result of magga citta. It is the shade of magga citta. It is the fruit of magga citta. So it never comes before magga citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's summary of Htoo's post point 6 of 13: 6. There are many dhammas and The Buddha preached in many different ways. The objects were preached. But when sammaa-samaadhi is preached the focus is supramundane dhamma and not mundane dhamma. So the object is OBVIOUSLY *NIBBANA*. As the name already implies, the object is not discussed extensively when sammaa-samaadhi is preached. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I raised this point because you and Swee Boon were talking on *not preaching on object in sammaa-samaadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. When the object is nibbana, there is no reason for magga cittas to take pannatti as thier object as in cases of mundane jhaanas 1st through 4th jhaana, all of whom take the object pannatti (signs) as their object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1st ruupa jhaana, 2nd ruupa jhaana, 3rd ruupa jhaana, 4th ruupa jhaana all take pannatti. They are all *nimitta pannatti*. They are signs. They are counter-image of mental image which again is the exact copy of initial image or idea or thought. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. When *nibbana* is directed, then, I say, that jhaana is released. That is not the power of jhaana but the object of jhaana. Because object has now to be changed to nibbana and no more on *pannatti*. I WILL repeat that the object of 1st jhaana through 4th jhaana are all pannatti and these objects are all signs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When satipatthaana is contemplated that is when 1st ruupa jhaana is contemplated that contemplating mind is no more ruupaavacara ruupa- jhaana citta. But satipatthaana-citta and it sees jhaana cittas are impermanent, unsatisfactory, self-less and rockets up to magga citta seeing nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. Kammatthaanas or meditation that may give rise to 1st jhaana are a) 10 asubha kammatthaana ( 10 meditations on dead bodies) b) 10 kasina kammatthaana ( 10 meditation on wholeness sign-kasina) c) 3 brahmavihaara or 3 brahacariya kammatthaana (metta,karuna,mudita) d) 1 kaayagataasati (32 body part recollections) e) 1 aanaapaanassati (breathing meditation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All these are in Dhamma Threads and extensively explained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 10. These 25 meditations do have different objects. But all these 25 objects are pannatti and they are just signs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Uddhumaataka asubha kammatthanaa sees 'the dead body of swollen type' and so on. This is difference from other 9 asubha kammatthaana. 10 kasinas are also different in terms of object. So there are 10 separate objects. Likewise others also take different object. But all these are pannatti and signs. They are nimitta pannatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 11. Some arahats became arahats through kayagataasati. But this is not the direct way but kayagataasati is based for higher consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Initial silting down of kaama raaga is caused by kaayagataasati and from there higher naana develop. So it is not the direct way. Pure kaayagatasati will never never lead to magga, phala, nibbana. For magga, phala, nibbana one has to do satipatthaana or directs to naama or ruupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12. Because of (example) kaayagataasati, mind becomes calm. All the components of jhaana citta is maintained but the object is changed to mind (naama) , which looked those signs of kaayagataasati and see that citta is not permanent and see all 3 lakkhanas and become ariya through successive arising of magga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Am I not clear, here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tep's summary on Htoo's post point 13 of 13 points: 13. Object is not talked in sammaa-samaadhi because object is known and it is nibbana, no doubt. WHO EVER WILL DENY THIS? But when we talk on ruupa jhaana and aruupa jhaana, we will have to deal with objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Try to define *ruupa jhaana*. Then there will not find any nibbana as object. There is a single anussati kammatthaana called *Upasamaanussati*. It looks nibbana. But this kammatthaana can only be practised by ariyas who at least attain sotapatti magga naana. That is they have seen nibbana and so it is possibole only for them. For puthujana it is just the copy of others (ariyas) when they contemplate on nibbana. Because puthujana never saw nibbana. But this kammatthaana called Upasamaanussati can NEVER give rise to ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana. It just cause upacaara-samaadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Let me know when you are ready ! Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. Thanks for your summary. With Metta, Htoo Naing > ======== 50410 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 556 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness' They are 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness. They can be grouped into the following way. 1. cittas of sensuous sphere (kaamaavacara cittas) 2. cittas of fine material sphere (ruupaavacara cittas) 3. cittas of non-material sphere (aruupaavacara cittas) 4. cittas beyond three-spheres (lokuttaraa cittas) There are 54 cittas of sensuous sphere. There are 15 cittas of fine material sphere. There are 12 cittas of non-material sphere. There are 8 cittas that are not of any of these three sphere. They are supramundane consciousness. As we all are living in sensuous sphere almost all consciousness that arise in us are all sensuous consciousness or kaamavacara cittas. There are 54 kamaavacara cittas. When consciousness that arise in us are analysed there will be 54 cittas or 54 consciousness. 15 cittas of fine material sphere are all ruupa jhaana cittas. 10 ruupa jhaana cittas are ruupa-jhaana javana cittas or absorptive consciousness. 5 cittas are life-continuing consciousness of fine- material beings or brahmas. Likewise, 12 cittas of non-material sphere are all aruupa jhaana cittas. 8 aruupa jhaana cittas are aruupa-jhaana javana cittas or absorptive consciousness whereas 4 aruupa jhaana cittas are life- continuing consciousness of non-material beings or aruupa-brahmas. 8 supramundane consciousness or 8 lokuttara cittas are cittas that arise at the time of arising of magga (path) or at the time of arising of phala (fruit). They can arise in all 3 spheres namely sensuous sphere, fine-material sphere, and non-material sphere. The only exception is that stream-entering path-consciousness does not arise in non-material sphere. Because, I think, it is very very first time that nibbana is seen. So there is a great joy or piiti and this might need material base like hadaya ruupa or hadaya vatthu. So where there is no hadaya vatthu like in 4 aruupa realms or 4 non- material realms there cannot arise stream-entering path- consciousness. But stream-entering fruition consciousness can arise there. Leaving jhaana, magga, phala cittas, there left only 54 consciousness. These vinnaana-kkhandhaa or consciousness are cittas that are arising in us daily and even right now. If these consciousness are understood much more higher consciousness may be understood with further explanation. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50411 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? Simple Truth First buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James (Nina and KenH) - > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > Hi Ken H, > > > you have some lovely reminders in your post. like below. Very > daily, > > > happening all the time. The sounds just come intruding upon me. > > >How can I select? Sitting before the computer, can I prevent > seeing? > > > > Yeah, just close your eyes. > > > > Metta, > > James > > ==================== > > It is very true, James. How can anyone not see that simple truth? > > One should master simple truths first, before trying to penetrate the > Paramattha truths. Similarly, one should develop anicca-sanna first, > then dukkha-sanna and anatta-sanna may arise. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ============ Wow! Again (for the second time) you have quite easily seen the hidden meaning in my message. I thought that most everyone would think I was just trying to be a smark alek but you really honed in on what I was trying to say: Why make the dhamma so complicated? Just close your eyes. Good job! BTW, do you have any psychic ability? (not a joke question). Metta, James 50412 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 9/19/05 5:05:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Shhhhhhhhhh!!!!! You are giving me a headache with all this > > blather! You should be meditating! ;-)) > > > > Metta, > > James > > ps. Just a friendly reminder. > > > ======================= > Thanks! You're right!! (But still, there *has* been a reduction - I've > consciously refrained from chiming in on several discussions. And I HAVE been > meditating. :-) Good for you! I was just joking, really. I would also like you to post on occassion- when you mood strikes you. Hope your meditation goes well; you probably have much more self-discipline than I have. Metta, James ps. BTW, I would love for you to post about your meditation experiences- that would really inspire me. Just resolve to not get into discussions with members about your experiences: You can post and then go back to meditating. 50413 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:17am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi James > > > But my students love me and tell me so practically everyday, no > > kidding (that's acceptable in Egypt). > > What a coincidence! My students love me and *don't* tell me, no > kidding (that's acceptable in Japan.) haha James: Probably just a cultural difference. Egyptian people are always holding hands, hugging and kissing (on the cheeks), and calling each other "Habibi" (Darling). I don't think the Japanese are like that. > > > I have no significant > > problems with my life or my level of metta in my life. > > Being loved is not necessarily due to metta. But it can be. Take this discourse from the Buddha, the Mettanisamsa Sutta : "Monks, eleven advantages are to be expected from the release (deliverance) of heart by familiarizing oneself with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta), by the cultivation of loving-kindness, by constantly increasing these thoughts, by regarding loving-kindness as a vehicle (of expression), and also as something to be treasured, by living in conformity with these thoughts, by putting these ideas into practice, and by establishing them. What are the eleven? 1. "He sleeps in comfort. 2. He awakes in comfort. 3. He sees no evil dreams. 4. He is dear to human beings. 5. He is dear to non- human beings. 6. Devas (gods) protect him. 7. Fire, poison, and sword cannot touch him. 8. His mind can concentrate quickly. 9. His countenance is serene. 10. He dies without being confused in mind. 11. If he fails to attain arahantship (the highest sanctity here and now, he will be reborn in the brahma-world. James: See number four. In my case, sometimes > I give a great lesson and have a lot of patience on the surface > because I am concerned about my image but as soon as that happens, > it is not metta, it is lobha. James: Yes, that isn't metta. Really, I don't have concern about my image too often when I am teaching. Actually, I don't have concern about my image hardly anytime. That is what I keep stressing to you. There are so many motivations for our > kindness to others - sometimes it is metta. Or often it is metta. We > cannot know so easily when it is metta and when there is lobha or > other things at work. James: Just be mindful and you can know. It isn't as impossible and complicated as K. Sujin and Nina paint it out to be. The Buddha didn't teach something that is practically impossible. Even when the Buddha had doubts about teaching the dhamma, his doubts were because he knew that most people wouldn't be interested, not because he believed most people couldn't do it. This is very important to remember. > > Again, I > > think this issue goes back to yourself. Examine yourself and get > > back to me- in private next time, please! > > Sorry, no guarantees. If you expose your bare bottom, I will > probably have to spank it. Accumulated tendencies. James: Okay, then so be it. We can continue until Sarah or Jon blow the whistle on us- I am only thinking of them when I caution you. I cause Sarah enough headaches without breaking her rules ;-). > > Seriously, the "examine yourself" is the whole point, of course. > I'm most interested in why I sometimes get irritated by the > unnaturally courteous tone of exchange at DSG, James: So do I! It just seems so sterile sometimes. and why I sometimes > find it very wholesome and helpful. James: I find it helpful because the members don't break out into cat fights like you can find in other groups! ;-) Can we drop it there, again? James: Nope. If you want to spank my bare bottom in public and air your dirty laundry, I'm not going to drop it. This is more interesting than "Jerry Springer"! ;-)) > (Sorry if it seems that I'm always asking you to drop things, but I > do that as a general rule these days.) > > Phil Lovingkindness, James 50414 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:42am Subject: Re: (Sukinder & Htoo)Long Discussion 3 (2nd session) 3 sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Again, instead of replying in text, I just want to make a more general statement. They are under various headings based on points in our discussions. 1. Living in conventional world. Conventional reality is the product of thinking. The foolish will take conventional designations as ultimately real, the wise would use it wisely ;-). For the purpose of day to day living there may or may not be panna necessary. However for the study and understanding of "reality", the use of conventional designations must be with panna, i.e. pariyatti. 2. Brothel/Retreat – Prostitute/Meditator => Self-view. The idea of better time and place for meditation brings forth the idea of "meditator". This is conditioned by self-view and encourages more self view. It is not alright to decide to meditate and to then say that these are all conditions, that there was no `self' behind the decision. Right view does not make such choices because the object of right view is paramattha dhammas or concepts of these and this is independent of concepts of time, place, person and posture. I would choose not to visit the brothel, for the reason that there arise unpleasant feelings associated with the thought that it would condition lots of akusala. This may or may not be associated with wrong view. However if I did have the idea that it is not conducive to the arising and development of satipatthana, then this will be with the idea of "self" and "control", hence wrong view. This then conditions the idea of another more suitable time and place, i.e. meditation retreat. So indeed the very idea of `meditation retreat' is one that encourages self-view. So I point the finger not only at those who go there, but to all those who promote and encourage it! 3. The idea of Retreat/Meditation/Meditator = Self-view. If these retreats were conducted by peoples of other religions and philosophies, I would not question it. There are good reasons to go on retreats, for example, to lessen sense impressions. Perhaps they may be developing samatha, I can't be sure. However Buddhists retreats are different, they talk about the development of satipatthana, and this I believe is wrong. The wisdom that it vipassana is different from samatha. The former seeks to eradicate ignorance and must be grounded on an understanding (at least pariyatti) of conditionality and anatta. The latter sees the danger of sense impressions and akusala of other kinds, particularly lobha, and so seeks with the idea of `self', to withdraw from such contacts. To go on retreats with the latter objective in mind is not so bad, but to do so with the other idea is to further feed wrong view. And invariably one ends up more strongly attached to the idea of meditation- "spend more hours meditating"! And even though many so called `meditators' disagree on some important aspects of the Teachings, they all together cheer when any one of them speak out against so called non-meditators. That's the value attached to the idea over everything else Dhamma. :-/ And what is the cause of this? Wrong pariyatti to start with!! You said: "Ask anyone from age 7 to 100, the value of a retreat". Exactly!! A good concept for wrong view to feed on! Is it not better to find out what that underlying view might be? ;-) I like the quiet of my car when caught in traffic and have had some good reflections then/there. But do I make this into a meditation room? The real noise is one of the three papanca, and `ditthi' should be our prime concern. And it speaks when there is such an idea as, "let me go to such and such a place. I shall develop satipatthana there." 4. Intention to "do" satipatthana. Satipatthana has a paramattha dhamma as object. What we identify as intention, is one that has a concept as object, for example, "to be mindful of dhammas". When such a thought arises, already many, many dhammas have arisen and fallen away, each with intention as accompanying mental factor. If there is no awareness of thinking as thinking but instead believing in the story about `being mindful, then there is no knowing the dhammas arising in subsequent cittas which conditions the "act" of observing. Hence the wrong path has been followed. Were there instead sati of the initial thinking, then one will also perhaps see the difference between *real* satipatthana and that which is conditioned when the wrong path is taken. 5. Bhavana must be with panna. Correct pariyatti which conditions correct patipatti is not opposed to kusala of other levels. Part of correct pariyatti is to see kusala as kusala, besides dana and sila levels is also seen as a support to the development of panna. However when we talk about the actual moments of bhavana and the importance of this, then we do need to know that simple kusala without panna is not going to lead us out of samsara. So encouraging bhavana is not the same as discouraging other forms of kusala, don't you think? 6. Not having eradicated self-view, is no excuse to "do" anything with `self'. You should not underestimate the importance of pariyatti. If on the pariyatti level, it says that there is no self, then one is simply following a *wrong theory* when one states to the effect that, "since we are not sotapannas, we must still practice with self". The underlying annusaya may still be there, but it does not manifest most of the time. In fact when pariyatti level of understanding is conditioned to arise, at that moment, it is the opposite of `wrong view', though this may be of a very weak level. So ask yourself, if the idea that one should sit down to mediate and/or go on a retreat is in line with correct pariyatti. 7. Too much stress on Panna. Can there ever be too much stress on panna? Bhavana is necessarily with panna isn't it? And isn't the whole idea of studying the teachings is to grow in understanding? And what is satipatthana if not the development of "panna"? Sati has the same paramattha dhamma as object; the difference is in the panna which understands better and better the different characteristics and conditions. 8. Fear of Self. Is identifying `self' and subsequently not encouraging it rooted in fear? Not wishing to meditate is not from fear that `self' will arise when one does so, but rather the perception that the very idea of meditating is conditioned by self-view. 9. No Self who keeps precepts. Keeping precept is ultimately the function of paramattha dhammas. If one thinks that this is due to a decision made and followed upon by one, then this is believing in the illusion of self and control. And when one comes from this position, then it is understandable that others who speak strongly against the idea of self and control, will be perceived as being `careless'. But paramattha dhammas roll on, while one is concerned about making a choice to keep precepts, satipatthana may not be one of those dhammas. ;-) 10. "Conditions", is this used in the same sense as "God" idea? There can be understanding of realities `now', and this is the same as understanding better about conditions. On the other hand, "God" is and forever will be an idea only. Why do you assume that when I appeal to `conditions', that this is only a philosophical idea? 11. Knowing moment to moment realties. When I talk about knowing moment to moment realities, it is not saying that each citta is observed or should be. There may not even be any sati for days. The idea is to understand the citta does arise and fall the way they do, each being conditioned by object and other conditions. That it is same here as it is there. Therefore thinking in terms of better place and time is to be placing oneself to not have sati at any time at all. Yet the potential is there for realities to be known at all times. 12. Wherever we are, it is by conditions. We may be living in Thailand or Burma, or Iraq or Afghanistan. We may be married with family responsibilities or we may be single and without any burden. We may be a prostitute or a teacher. Our surroundings may consist of people shouting and demanding things from us or we may be living with a peaceful and understanding person. Whatever it is, we are where we are, by force of conditions. At any given moment, there is no saying that sati of any level can arise, provided that we have heard and correctly understood the teachings. Some may have the luxury to go on a retreat and some may not. Both however *need* to understand conditioned realities as conditioned realties whatever those are and wherever. The idea of another time and place only adds to the confusion, since realties are realities, whether here or there. And insisting on the value of retreats as against any other place, does not help. 16. Destruction of Sasana. Finally, not promoting retreats is no indication of the destruction of the Sasana. The deterioration of the Sasana is proportional to Teachings being wrongly understood. If the pariyatti is wrong, then patipatti is also wrong. As stated above, I think the idea of meditation/retreat is consequence of wrong view. So in fact the popularity, within the age group ranging between 7 and 100, for the idea of retreat and meditation, may be the very sign of the Sasana becoming other than what it was meant to be. :-) My time for DSG becomes less and less, so I may decide not to continue with our discussions, hope you don't mind. Besides I prefer to read, and I am way behind in my reading, even after choosing not to read several posts. Metta, Sukinder 50415 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:19am Subject: Full Understanding of Dukkha and the Path buddhistmedi... Hi, all DSG friends - Recently there was a discussion at the SariputtaDhamma group on the three kinds of suffering (dukkha) as defined by the great Arahant Sariputta in Samyutta Nikaya XXXVIII.14: Dukkha Sutta. These three are: the stressfulness of pain(dukkha-dukkha), the stressfulness of fabrication(sankhaara-dukkha), and the stressfulness of change (viparinaama-dukkha). And I posted a question : "Why is it true that the Eightfold Path is the promising practice that leads to full comprehension of these three forms of dukkha?" Han tun was kind enough to write a clear answer to the question based on his study of the sutta and Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on the Eightfold Path. It is a masterpiece that should be read by anyone who is interested in full understanding (parinnaa) of the Noble Truths. His writing is shown below. Regards, Tep ====== From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:29 am Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Reviewing SN XXXVIII.14: Dukkha Sutta, Stress. Dear Tep and other SD members, In SN 38.14 Dukkha-panha Sutta, the wanderer Jambukhaadaka asked Venerable Sariputta, "what is dukkha?" Venerable Sariputta replied that there are three dukkhas – dukkha- dukkha, sankhaara-dukkha, and viparinaama-dukkha. Jambukhaadaka then asked whether there is a path (magga), and practice (patipadaa) to fully understand (parinnaa) these three dukkhas. Venerable Sariputta replied that the path and the practice to fully understand these three dukkhas is Noble Eightfold Path. ------------------------------ Now the question is how the Noble Eightfold Path is the path and the practice to fully understand these three dukkhas. Before one can answer that question, one should ask back "what do you mean by full understanding (parinnaa)?" Parinnaa is of three kinds: naata-parinnaa, tirana-parinnaa, and pahaana-parinnaa. Naata-parinnaa is to know the true nature of these dukkhas. Here, the knowledge of naama and ruupa is involved. This can be achieved by developing the two pannaa maggangas, namely, sammaa-ditthi (right view) and sammaa-sankappa (right thought). Tirana-parinnaa is to know the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) of these dukkhas. Here, book knowledge is not enough. There must be personal experiential knowledge of the three characteristics. For this, the practitioner must meditate, developing the three samaadhi maggangas, namely, sammaa-vaayaama (right effort), sammaa-sati (right mindfulness), sammaa-samaadhi (right concentration). Pahaana-parinnaa is abandoning of kilesas that are associated with these three dukkhas. Here, all eight maggangas will have to be developed. The process of abandoning of kilesas with eight maggangas is the same irrespective of the starting point. In this sutta the three dukkhas are the starting point. The starting point can also be body (kaaya), consciousness (citta) or mind-objects (dhamma). Therefore, the description below is applicable to all contemplations to abandon kilesas, using eight maggangas as the Path. To start with, the practitioner will have to develop the two pannaa maggangas to understand the object under contemplation, as it really is. It is also called yathaabhuuta-nana. Then the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha, and anatta, are to be contemplated by developing three samaadhi maggangas. Meanwhile the practitioner will have to observe perfect siila, through three siila maggangas, nmely, sammaa- vaacaa (right speech), sammaa-kammanta (right action), and sammaa-aajiiva (right livelihood). As the practitioner progresses, he will have the right concentration which claims the last place among the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, but concentration itself does not mark the path's culmination. The attainment of concentration makes the mind still and steady, unifies its concomitants, opens vast vistas of bliss, serenity, and power. But by itself it does not suffice to reach the highest accomplishment, release from the bonds of suffering. To reach the end of suffering demands that the Eightfold Path be turned into an instrument of discovery, that it be used to generate the insights unveiling the ultimate truth of things. This requires the combined contributions of all eight factors, and thus a new mobilization of right view and right intention. Up to the present point these first two path factors have performed only a preliminary function. Now they have to be taken up again and raised to a higher level. Right view is to become a direct seeing into the real nature of phenomena, previously grasped only conceptually; right intention, to become a true renunciation of defilements born out of deep understanding. Before we turn to the development of wisdom, it will be helpful to inquire why concentration is not adequate to the attainment of liberation. Concentration does not suffice to bring liberation because it fails to touch the defilements at their fundamental level. The Buddha teaches that the defilements are stratified into three layers: the stage of latent tendency, the stage of manifestation, and the stage of transgression. The most deeply grounded is the level of latent tendency (anusaya), where a defilement merely lies dormant without displaying any activity. The second level is the stage of manifestation (pariyutthaana), where a defilement, through the impact of some stimulus, surges up in the form of unwholesome thoughts, emotions, and volitions. Then, at the third level, the defilement passes beyond a purely mental manifestation to motivate some unwholesome action of body or speech. Hence this level is called the stage of transgression (vitikkama). The three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path provide the check against this threefold layering of the defilements. The first, the training in moral discipline, restrains unwholesome bodily and verbal activity and thus prevents defilements from reaching the stage of transgression. The training in concentration provides the safeguard against the stage of manifestation. It removes already manifest defilements and protects the mind from their continued influx. But even though concentration may be pursued to the depths of full absorption, it cannot touch the basic source of affliction -- the latent tendencies lying dormant in the mental continuum. Against these concentration is powerless, since to root them out calls for more than mental calm. What it calls for, beyond the composure and serenity of the unified mind, is wisdom (pañña), a penetrating vision of phenomena in their fundamental mode of being. Wisdom alone can cut off the latent tendencies at their root because the most fundamental member of the set, the one which nurtures the others and holds them in place, is ignorance (avijja), and wisdom is the remedy for ignorance. Though verbally a negative, "unknowing," ignorance is not a factual negative, a mere privation of right knowledge. It is, rather, an insidious and volatile mental factor incessantly at work inserting itself into every compartment of our inner life. It distorts cognition, dominates volition, and determines the entire tone of our existence. As the Buddha says: "The element of ignorance is indeed a powerful element" (SN 14:13). Thus the two pannaa maggangas must come back and cap the noble eightfold path for final liberation. [The last four paragraphs are taken from The Noble Eightfold Path, by Bhikkhu Bodhi] With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ============================ 50416 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? Simple Truth First buddhistmedi... Hi, James - >James: I thought that most everyone would think I was just trying to >be a smark alek but you really honed in on what I was trying to say: >Why make the dhamma so complicated? Just close your eyes. > > Good job! BTW, do you have any psychic ability? (not a joke > question). > Well, James, to be correct only two times, for me, is nothing to be proud of yet. Wait till I can read your mind correctly ten times in a row, then you may give me a "wow". :-)) Warm regards, Tep ======== 50417 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 9/20/05 11:09:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > Thanks! You're right!! (But still, there *has* been a > reduction - I've > >consciously refrained from chiming in on several discussions. And > I HAVE been > >meditating. :-) > > Good for you! I was just joking, really. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I know. :-) ------------------------------------ I would also like you to > > post on occassion- when you mood strikes you. Hope your meditation > goes well; you probably have much more self-discipline than I have. ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know. ;-) ------------------------------------ > > > Metta, > James > ps. BTW, I would love for you to post about your meditation > experiences- that would really inspire me. Just resolve to not get > into discussions with members about your experiences: You can post > and then go back to meditating. ----------------------------------------- Howard: If ever I have anything worth reporting, I'll do so. (Don't hold your breath! ;-)) =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50418 From: nina Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:48am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 193 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 193. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the meaning of inferior (hiina) and superior (pa.niita), said of the five khandhas and here specifically of ruupakkhandha. When these terms are used figuratively, they are used by way of comparison, such as the bodily phenomena of beings in different planes of existence. When they are used in the absolute sense, superior is the result of kusala kamma and inferior the result of akusala kamma. Kusala vipaakacitta experiences a desirable object (i.t.thaaramma.na) and akusala vipaakacitta experiences an undesirable object (ani.t.thaaramma.na). The Dispeller of Delusion and the Tiika to this text of the Visuddhimagga deal with different opinions about the nature of the object, being desirable or undesirable. ****** Text Vis. 193.:(vii)-(ix) 'Inferior and superior' are twofold, namely, figuratively (relatively) and absolutely (literally). Herein, the materiality of the Sudassin deities is inferior to the materiality of the Akani.t.tha (Highest) deities. That same materiality [of the Sudassin deities] is superior to the materiality of the Sudassa deities. Thus, firstly, should inferiority and superiority be understood figuratively (relatively) down as far as the denizens of hell. But absolutely (literally) it is inferior where it arises as unprofitable result, and it is superior where it arises as profitable result.[76] ----------------------------- Note 76. Profitable result is superior because it produces a desirable object (see Pm. 498). This question is treated at length at VbhA. 9f. -------- N: As to the expression , the Tiika explains that the akusala vipaakacitta which arises and experiences an undesirable (ani.t.tha) object is inferior and that the kusala vipaakacitta which arises and experiences a desirable (i.t.tha) object is superior. The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodanii) deals with desirable and undesirable objects (p. 9-11), and states that kusala kamma does not condition undesirable objects. It mentions opinions of people who say that there are no intrinsic agreeable and disagreeable objects, but that it depends on people¹s like or dislike of objects whether these are agreeable or disagreeable. The Co states that it is through perversion of perception that the same object is agreeable for one and disagreeable for another. We read that the elder Tipi.taka Cula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to vipaaka (kamma result) only, not according to javana (impulsion that follows the vipaka). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (saññavipallasa) only that lusts for the agreeable and hates the same agreeable; that lusts for the disagreeable and hates the same agreeable. Only by way of vipaaka however is it rightly distinguishable. For resultant consciousness (vipaaka citta) cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen.² The Dispeller of Delusion adds that agreeableness and disagreeableness should be distinguished by way of doors. What is pleasant through the eyedoor may be unpleasant through the body-door. We have to distinguish between the vipaakacittas that experience pleasant or unpleasant objects depending on the kamma that produce them, and the javana-cittas, the akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising afterwards that react to the objects in an unwholesome way or wholesome way. Like or dislike of the objects may arise with the javanacittas and these are condiitoned by a person¹s accumulated inclinations. That is why it is said: As we read in the Vis. text, inferior and superior can be seen in a relative sense (pariyaayato: in a figurative way) and in the absolute sense (nippariyaayato, literally). It compares the ruupas of the deities in lower and higher deva planes that are produced by kusala kamma. The ruupas of those in a hell plane are inferior, since birth in a hell plane is the result of akusala kamma. In the ultimate sense the ruupa experienced by akusala vipaakacitta is inferior and the ruupa experienced by kusala vipaakacitta is superior. The Tiika to the Vis. states that for animals the ruupas of humans are disagreeable, that they run away after they have seen humans. When humans have seen the ruupas of devas, they are afraid. Although kusala vipaakacitta arises when these ruupas are seen, humans do not delight in them because they do not have merit similar to the devas. N: Ruupas of animals are produced by akusala kamma and ruupas of humans and devas are produced by kusala kamma. However, others who perceive them, react differently. Conclusion: We attach great importance to the fact whether the objects we experience are pleasant objects or unpleasant objects. However, kusala kamma produces kusala vipaakacittas that experience a desirable object and akusala kamma produces akusala vipaakacittas that experience an undesirable object. It is beyond control what type of vipaakacitta arises at a particular moment. We think for a long time about pleasant or unpleasant situations or events, but we do not realize that akusala vipaakacitta or kusala vipaakacitta that experiences one object at a time through one doorway does not last, that it is gone immediately. We usually think about our experiences with akusala citta that likes or dislikes them and we are ignorant of the different cittas that arise each becaus of their own conditions. There may be wise attention or unwise attention to the objects that are experienced. If there is wise attention one does not have attachment nor aversion with regard to the object. There can be understanding of it as a conditioned dhamma that does not last. ******* Nina. 50419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 277- Wrong View/di.t.thi (m) nilovg Dear Ng Boon, your anwers are well thought out, I appreciate them. When I have time I may add something. Nina. op 20-09-2005 12:48 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: >> >> Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) >> ========================================== >> [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] >> >> Questions. >> >> i What is an example of wrong practice which people >> may >> follow today? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Too many ranging from even > breaking the 5 precepts like killing, take what is not > given, sexual misconduct, etc. 50420 From: nina Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:48am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 3, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? kenhowardau Hi Htoo, You wrote: ---------------------- > Dear Ken H (and Swee ), I did not find Swee said sammaa-samaadhi comes first. But he did say sammaa-samaadhi is supported by the other 7 sammaa-dhamma. -------------------- Swee objects to the way K Sujin interprets the Dhamma - i.e., by emphasising that right understanding comes first. He thinks the emphasis should be on right concentration and formal meditation. I admit, Swee did say samma-samadhi was supported by the other 7 samma-dhamma, but as you know, that was not all he said. He wrote: "The Buddha's approach is to develop Noble Right Concentration (supported by the other 7 Noble Right Factors) that penetrates anicca, which subsequently penetrates anatta. Khun Sujin's approach is to accumulate moments of understanding about conditions and relinquishing control to achieve the glimpse of anatta . . ." You wholeheartedly endorsed Swee's version of the Dhamma and his extensive criticism of K Sujin. At the same time, you downgraded the Abhidhamma saying it was something we should not "overdose" on. That was very strange coming from the author of so many Adhidhamma threads. Perhaps your attachment to formal pracitce is stronger than you think. (?) Ken H 50422 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? kenhowardau Dear Nina and James, ------------------------ N: > Ken H, you have some lovely reminders in your post, like below. Very daily, happening all the time. The sounds just come intruding upon me. How can I select? Sitting before the computer, can I prevent seeing? ------------------------- Thank you Nina, it is good to have an appreciation of Abhidhamma in daily life. ----------------------------------- J: > Yeah, just close your eyes. ----------------------------------- Hmmm, I don't see any appreciation of Abhidhamma in that sentiment. More a complete denial of it, I would think. Never mind - "To each, his own." Ken H 50423 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon, You wrote: --------------- > Hi Ken H, > > Just two points to reply to ... > --------------- I notice that neither of the two points addresses the gist of my message; namely that you had misrepresented K Sujin (changing her words around). Perhaps we can get back to that. --------------------- > Are you saying right concentration comes first? Where did the Buddha > say that? It seems highly illogical. Of course not. See MN 117. --------------------- I am glad to know that. The main criticism of K Sujin has always been that she places too much emphasis on study. People say she should teach formal vipassana meditation. If I remember correctly, you have always been one of those critics. --------------------------- S: > We need to see both (1) dependent co-arising (or this/that conditionality), and (2) dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation in order to comprehend anatta. Implications: (A) It is impossible to comprehend anatta with just (1) alone. (B) It is unnecessary to dabble into the 24 conditions found inside the Abhidhamma. All conditions can be generalized into the statement "this/that conditionality". ------------------------------ I am not trying to be difficult, but I genuinely can't see the point you are making. K Sujin always urges us to know the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. You seem to be saying she only wants us to see the conditions themselves (the 24 paccaya). If that is what you are saying, then I have to ask; whatever gave you that idea? ------------------------------- <. . .> S: > (C) You need Right Concentration supported by the other 7 Right Factors in order to realize (2). -------------------------------- If I understand you correctly, you think we need a program - separate from Dhamma study - in which to develop powers of concentration. You believe it is not enough that right concentration arises automatically with its forerunner, right understanding. You are welcome to your opinions, of course, but can you support them with evidence from the Pali Canon? Where does it say the concentration arising with right understanding is not enough? Ken H 50424 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Re: Tep - a few comments on jhanas and the breathing treatise buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (also Jon, Swee, Htoo, KenH, James) - It was a few months ago when we had a number of continuing dialogues that went on and on and with no conclusion in sight. I have learned since then that there are some "hard-core" issues that we will never reach an agreement, no matter how hard we try to convince each other. The desire or intention to convince someone who is a disbeliever (including Tep), even though it is a kusala cetana, is most of the time not a productive action. These issues should be put aside for good, I believe. S: I have several of your posts in front of me which I've been meaning to respond to – apologies for the delays. If you don't mind, I'll just make a few brief comments here in note form as I do with Htoo when I get behind. T: I am always impressed by your patience and discipline of an exceptional moderator (who has many posts to read each week), so the delays are already anticipated with understanding -- apologies are unnecessary. .................. S: (referring to the post #47712) You summarized B.Bodhi's conclusions from `The Jhanas and the Lay Disciple'. ..I wished you to see my earlier replyto B.Bodhi but wasn't able to find it when I was away(#39500). You may wish to add further comments. T: Thank you for jumpstarting my memory of the past review of Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta research, which was about jhanas and the conditions of stream-entry. > Tep: I extracted only his definitive findings and assembled the pieces > into the following answers: >(1.) "Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters 'the fixed course of rightness' in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. >(2.) "None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhanas. >(3.) "All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhanas. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhanic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment." [end of quote from # 47712] The first and second findings are a good news for people who are either faith- or wisdom-followers and are not jhana followers. The third one is a confirmation of my recent statement that samma-samadhi is the attainment of the four rupa-jhanas(see the recent dialogues with Jon, Swee, Htoo, James and Ken H). T: Concerning your post # 39500, I would like to make a note right at the beginning that your argument is based on having "a lot of confidence in the Pali commentaries", while Bhikkhu Bodhi "wonders if the commentaries may have deviated from the Nikayas". Therefore, it is understandable why you mostly disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi in the discussion. There are no definitive agreements on adhisiila –sikkhaa, adhicitta-sikkhaa, and adhipa~n~naa-sikkha. The disagreements are seen in your wordings like the following : "It doesn't mean the 4 jhanas have necessarily been attained and adhicitta-sikkhaa is only developed in the one developing the Path". "It may be that adhicitta is defined by the 4 jhanas in context – it would depend on who is being addressed". "In some contexts we also have to keep in mind the two meanings of jhana – one referring to the object which can `burn away' the defilements (aramma.nuu-panijjhaana)and the other which develops with satipatthana (lakkha.nuupjijhaana)". "There are many ways to talk about the variety oft ariyans of course and again we need to look at contexts when reading about balas". "However, even at vipassana ~nana, it must be khanika samadhi, not appanaa(access) as I believe you suggest. The objects of the samadhi and panna are still characteristics of reality (i.e 4 foundations of mindfulness)". My sutta knowledge when compared to that of the Venerable Bodhi is like an ant hill to a mountain. Since you have such a strong disagreement with him, are you sure that you are interested in my comments, Sarah? Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I have several of your posts in front of me which I've been meaning to > respond to – apologies for the delays. If you don't mind, I'll just make a > few brief comments here in note form as I do with Htoo when I get behind: > 50425 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep - a few comments on jhanas and the breathing treatise sarahprocter... Hi Tep,(Htoo, James, Christine, KenH, Dan, Phil in passing!), I was just about to add a typo correction to my original post -- at one point I wrote 'insight' instead of 'enlightenment' with regard to the Satipatthana Sutta. As I see you've already kindly responded, let me just make one or two more quick comments at the same time: Firstly, thank you for your kind words -- it's a real pleasure for me to read and respond here. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: Thank you for jumpstarting my memory of the past review of Bhikkhu > Bodhi's sutta research, which was about jhanas and the conditions of > stream-entry. > > > Tep: I extracted only his definitive findings and assembled the pieces > > into the following answers: > > >(1.) "Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling > enters 'the fixed course of rightness' in a way that emphasizes either > faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. > > >(2.) "None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for > stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them > as being proficient in the jhanas. > > >(3.) "All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble > Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhanas. Though it is > obvious > that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhanic attainments, the > latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual > equipment." [end of quote from # 47712] > > The first and second findings are a good news for people who are > either faith- or wisdom-followers and are not jhana followers. The third > > one is a confirmation of my recent statement that samma-samadhi is > the attainment of the four rupa-jhanas(see the recent dialogues with > Jon, Swee, Htoo, James and Ken H). ... S: I think the point is a lot more subtle than this as even BB suggests here. I'll leave this in Htoo's and Ken H's capable hands! .... > > T: Concerning your post # 39500, I would like to make a note right at > the > beginning that your argument is based on having "a lot of confidence > in the Pali commentaries", while Bhikkhu Bodhi "wonders if the > commentaries may have deviated from the Nikayas". Therefore, it is > understandable why you mostly disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi in the > discussion. .... S: I would not say 'mostly disagree' here at all. As I wrote truthfully at the outset: "I found it a very useful article and piece of research and posted it on DSG in short instalments as a series for others to read as well. I agree with your main conclusion – that sotapannas do not necessarily possess jhana at all and that the textual sources make this clear.". If I had not mostly agreed with his conclusions, I would not have posted the article. I would just go further than he does with the conclusions based on the texts and yes, I accept all the ancient Theravada texts as being in full conformity with each other. I considered the passages he selected very carefully and over quite some time before responding. I believe that doubts about this or that text are usually based on our limited wisdom. When I come across passages which are beyond my capability to truly appreciate, such as parts of the passages you are quoting from Psm, I just put them aside for the time being (like Phil)rather than doubt their credentials. I have confidence in the wisdom of the ancient Theras who compiled them and there are so many examples of passages that have made no sense or seemed illogical to me before and which now make much more sense. .... >T:There are no definitive agreements on adhisiila –sikkhaa, > adhicitta-sikkhaa, and adhipa~n~naa-sikkha. The disagreements are > seen in your wordings like the following : > >S: "It doesn't mean the 4 jhanas have necessarily been attained and > adhicitta-sikkhaa is only developed in the one developing the Path". > "It may be that adhicitta is defined by the 4 jhanas in context – it > would > depend on who is being addressed". ... S: Thank you very much for reading my old post #39500. In many contexts, the Buddha was primarily addressing those who had attained or who were capable of attaining the 4 jhanas. He did not use the same language when addressing many lay disciples. ... > "In some contexts we also have to keep in mind the two meanings of > jhana – one referring to the object which can `burn away' the > defilements > (aramma.nuu-panijjhaana)and the other which develops with > satipatthana (lakkha.nuupjijhaana)". .... S: As I said, the meanings of suttas can be subtle. One word 'jhana' or 'jhanati' can have many implications. .... > "There are many ways to talk about the variety oft ariyans of course > and again we need to look at contexts when reading about balas". > "However, even at vipassana ~nana, it must be khanika samadhi, not > appanaa(access) as I believe you suggest. The objects of the > samadhi and panna are still characteristics of reality (i.e 4 > foundations > of mindfulness)". ... S: I don't believe BB denied any of these points. Also, ask Htoo or other friends. I do believe that if one restricts one's study to sutta study only, one will miss many fine points. The Buddha encouraged us to take refuge in the Dhamma-Vinaya, in the Tipitaka and to also benefit from the assistance and further explanations of the ancient Theras. .... > > My sutta knowledge when compared to that of the Venerable Bodhi is > like an ant hill to a mountain. Since you have such a strong > disagreement with him, are you sure that you are interested in my > comments, Sarah? .... S: As I said, I don't have 'such a strong disagreement' with anything he wrote in this article and I don't believe he read it as such. There were several relatively minor points I wished to respond to which I thought might be of benefit. It was a healthy discussion. My sutta knowledge is also very, very limited, but I believe it's the way we read and consider the teachings rather than the amount of textual knowledge that we have which counts. On this note, I agree with Htoo that there can easily be an 'overdose' of textual knowledge. However, I disagree with him that 'practice' has anything to do with reading and repeating more or less of such textual knowledge. Again, when one thinks like that, i.e whether to post more or less, whether to read more or less, whether to sit quietly more or less, one continues to be enslaved by ideas of situations and conceptual ideas of practice rather than developing any more understanding of dhammas which are conditioned already NOW!. (Dan also added some good comments on the 'overdose' theme:) Also, Dan, loved the 'politics' post to Colette - most helpful, imho). Tep, I'm always glad to hear your comments and reflections. Even some of your one-liners, such as your appreciation of Phil's comments on 'offence' in which you could see there were some good points, are quite inspiring -- in that case inspiring because of your willingness to reflect and consider other viewpoints. If there's anything further you'd like to take up here, please do, but I may not be able to respond further to any of your difficult qus until after our India trip! (note, James - I'm not dropping any threads, just indicating I may be even slower than usual to respond. Meanwhile, pls keep talking to each other:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Christine & all - do you have BB's new anthology of sutta translations yet? Any comments? Commentary notes? He mentioned it would be the next text out when we last saw him and that it was relatively straight forward as it was to be an anthology of existing translations rearranged. Hopefully now, the AN translation will be the next one..... ======= 50426 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:34pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 278 Conceit -maana (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)] Conceit, måna, is another akusala cetasika. There is conceit or pride when we consider ourselves important. Because of conceit we may compare ourselves with others. There can be conceit when we think ourselves better, equal or less than someone else. We may believe that there can be conceit only when we think ourselves better than someone else, but this is not so. There can be a kind of upholding of ourselves, of making ourselves important, while we compare ourselves with someone else, no matter in what way, and that is conceit. We read in the Dhammasangaùi (§1116): * "What is the Fetter of conceit? Conceit at the thought “I am the better man”; conceit at the thought “I am as good (as they)”; conceit at the thought “I am lowly”- all such sort of conceit, overweening conceitedness, loftiness, haughtiness, flaunting a flag, assumption, desire of the heart for self-advertisement— this is called conceit." * ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50427 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:18pm Subject: Who or What is the Creator ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: No Agent nor Actor exists only Impersonally Acting Processes Unfolds! Question: Who is the Creator ??? Answer: Nobody is the Creator of anything !!! Q: What then, is creating ??? A: Ignorance and Craving is creating !!! Q: What is ignorance & craving creating ? A: Ignorance & craving creates Suffering !!! Question: Who Perceives ??? Answer: Nobody Perceives anything !!! Q: What then, is perceiving ??? A: The Perception process itself perceives !!! Q: What do perception perceive ??? A: Form, sound, smell, taste, touch & thoughts !!! Question: Who Feels ??? Answer: Nobody Feels anything !!! Q: What then, is feeling ??? A: The process of Feeling itself feels !!! Q: What do Feeling feel ??? A: Feeling feels pleasure, pain & neutrality !!! Question: Who is the Knower ??? Answer: Nobody is the Knower of anything !!! Q: What then, is Knowing ??? A: The state of Knowledge itself knows !!! Q: What is knowledge knowing ??? A: Knowledge knows: Such is Pain, cause of Pain, Such is the End of Pain, & Way to End all Pain !!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 50428 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 277- Wrong View/di.t.thi (m) mr39515 please do... --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ng Boon, > your anwers are well thought out, I appreciate them. > When I have time I may > add something. > Nina. > op 20-09-2005 12:48 schreef Ng Boon Huat op > mr39515@...: > > >> > >> Questions, comments and different views > welcome;-) > >> ========================================== > >> [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi)continued] > >> > >> Questions. > >> > >> i What is an example of wrong practice which > people > >> may > >> follow today? > > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Too many ranging from even > > breaking the 5 precepts like killing, take what is > not > > given, sexual misconduct, etc. <...> 50429 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:03am Subject: An overdose for Htoo 1? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, Comments, mostly on your Dhamma Threads – as usual in note form and in no particular order: 1 (for Nina too) #48511, you translate ayatana as sense-base. I think Nina usually uses ‘base’. I’m sure I’ve used both. When I was last in Bkk, I was reading out from BB’s translation where he also uses ‘sense-base’ and ‘sense-bases’ for salayatana etc. K.Sujin stopped me and said this was inaccurate as sense bases refer to eye-base etc. I asked for her suggestion and she suggested we just use ayatana or ‘meeting-points’ in translation. The point is that the dhammas referred to are only ayatanas when there is a ‘meeting’ of these inner and outer ayatanas. 2 #48648 on the 8 vimokkhas. We had some brief discussion about how there has to be a gradual liberation from everything and these are referring to degrees of such liberation. A difficult area . 3 #49002 You say that according to the suttas (or suggest) that issa (jealousy/envy) and macchariya (stinginess) are not eradicated by sotapatti magga. I had a long discussion with James on this. The commentaries make it very clear that the meaning of the suttas is that they are eradicated. I gave many textual references before, inc. sutta refs. Also, you say that according to the suttas, kaama raga (attachment to sensual objects) and patigha (ill-will) are only eradicated by arahatta magga. Ah, but then you go on later to say they are eradicated by anagami magga. Pls check. As you say, there is no difference in meaning in the lists and I don’t read any difference in the texts with regard to the eradication of the fetters. 4 #49104 I think you are confusing sense bases, sense objects and ayatanas again. I also think this is exactly the way that many well-known translators confuse them too – not really understanding what ayatanas are even theoretically just a little. Not easy, I know. Leaving aside your comments about fetters arising at ayatanas (??), you translate manayatana as mind and dhammayatana as mind object or thinkable object. This is misleading as I see it. See UP- ayatanas as we discussed at length before:). 5 #49517 (not a DT, but a post to me on the Satipatthana Sutta) We agree that there cannot be the seeing of cittas, let alone the arising and falling of cittas ‘in other individuals’. However, you suggest the references to perceiving externally ‘includes Sammasambuddhas’. However, I don’t believe the satipatthana sutta was being addressed to Sammasambuddhas, do you?? You also say that ‘the meditator pereceives that these dhammas that have arisen in him/her will also be arising and passing away in other individuals.’ This may be correct, but it’s only thinking rather than moments of satipatthana (except for those with special abhinnas etc). The same applies to your comments on realizing the elements exist in others and so on. Later you agree with my other comments which suggest the externally refers to the awareness of our ‘own’ cittas, cetasikas and rupas on account of what is seen or heard or experienced, here or there, conditioned by ‘onself’ or ‘others’ and that ‘we just know our own mind and our own senses’. Maybe a little agreeing with both sides as KenH might suggest:). 6 #49513 (another post to me) On uddhacca (restlessness) as a hindrance in the development of samatha and attainment of jhana, you suggest it is something different to the mental factor accompanying all akusala cittas. I can’t find any evidence for this in the Ab.Sangaha or commentary. I read all the hindrances as referring to cetasikas arising very, very often now as we speak! Do you have any refs on this? .... More to go, but I’ll give us both a break. A couple of times at least now, you’ve referred to all the many ‘seeing-teachers/hearing-teachers here on this list’. I’d be very glad if they’d also help us out with any of our discussions and if they’d make their presence known a little more. Perhaps you can gradually introduce them. In any case, we’re glad if anyone takes the trouble to read or join in our threads, aren’t we Htoo?. Metta, Sarah p.s Many thx for the off-list note on 'ganthas' -- see the next update of UP soooon! ======== 50430 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Tep - a few comments on jhanas and the breathing treatise christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep,(Htoo, James, Christine, KenH, Dan, Phil in passing!), Christine & all - do you have BB's new anthology of sutta translations > yet? Any comments? Commentary notes? He mentioned it would be the next > text out when we last saw him and that it was relatively straight forward > as it was to be an anthology of existing translations rearranged. > Hopefully now, the AN translation will be the next one..... > ======= Hello Sarah, I have ordered this anthology and may bring it on the India trip if it arrives in time - only a couple of weeks to go now. :-) metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50431 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:23am Subject: An overdose for Htoo 2? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, #49741 (to Nina and I on Cetasikas-Wrong View) I agree with most your comments. Howeve, when you say ‘theoretical understanding is not as strong as personal experience’, are you referring to ‘book-learning vs sitting quietly in meditation’ or are you referring to ‘pariyatti vs patipatti’? If it’s the latter, i.e pariyatti is not as strong as patipatti, of course there is no disagreement. When it comes to book study and sitting quietly, of course there may or may not be any pariyatti even. If there hasn’t be any listening and wise reflection on present dhammas, there’s no chance of there even being pariyatti which can only ever arise with panna. I think the point that can easily be missed (eg in your discussions with Sukin or comments here on forgetfulness etc) is that no one is recommending that you should visit a battle, pub or brothel or that there should be breeding of forgetfulness in order to be aware of it. The point is that all dhammas are conditioned. If by conditions now, there is forgetfulness or lust or bad speech, for example, in any place (again by conditions only) it is only such present dhammas that can be known. This doesn’t mean that you might as well follow any deeds or actions or go to any harmful place. That would not be the middle way or any understanding. The same discussion I’ve been having with Howard. I liked your comment at the end: ‘Following the rules as the rules while understanding what one has been doing is not siilabbataparaamaasa. As long as there is panna there is no siilabattaparaamaasa.” ...... #50094 (also on Cetasikas-Wrong View) I like this: “Bush does not arise, Bush does not pass away. Htoo does not arise, Htoo does not pass away. There is no dhamma that is called ‘Bush’. There is no dhamma that is called ‘Htoo’. “ .... S: I have a lot more to go, but need to attend to some other tasks now.... Metta, Sarah ======== 50432 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:47am Subject: An overdose for Htoo 3? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo (& Nina), 1.#50095 (Breathing Treatise to Tep) You wrote that ‘If someone perfects indriyasamvarasiila it will become adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and not through discussions among Groups for understranding.’ S: Can we say instead that indriyasamvarasiila and adhi siila will only be developed and perfected through the development of satipatthana? Then it’s a question of how we define satipatthana again. You also say ‘this siila also leads to adhi-citta. If someone stays with indriyasamvara siila his mind is pure.’ I would rather say that adhi-siila, adhi-citta and adhi-panna develop with each moment of satipatthana. No one ‘stays with indriyasamvara siila’. There is a guarding of the faculties with each moment of sati. When there’s no sati, no guarding of ‘staying with’ anything pure. 2.#50177 In many, many posts like this one, you use the word ‘stock’ of dhamma. Pls can you tell me what the Pali is for ‘stock’. Also, ‘event’, is this a translation of dhamma, as in ‘all these events happen at the very very same time in a moment...’ You also say ‘In the whole event where there comprises all 9 events there is a feeling.’ I know others use ‘events’ too, but I always find it rather misleading in reference to paramattha dhammas or elements. 3.(For Nina too )#50181 You discuss sanna in different contexts and categories --- lots of excellent material in your post on a difficult topic. Very good. Btw, Nina, I think you’ve suggested a couple of times that in different contexts, sanna can refer to insight for example, as in the sutta quoted in Cetasikas where sanna is translated as ‘idea’. I may have misunderstood your comments, but when I raised this point a couple of times with KS, she stressed that sanna always refers to sanna, never to panna. We can use different terms to classify which sanna it is, such as sanna with insight, but it is still sanna. Even when we refer to n’evasa~n~naanaasa~n~naa, it seems like it’s a citta being referred to, but actually it’s the sanna with the citta being referred to. Even if it says in the text or commentary by way of explanation that it’s citta or insight, it’s sanna! Also, Nina, you asked us to raise the topic of sanna as a condition for more attachment with KS and to elaborate on some of her comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/47645 I quoted the comments and mentioned your request. Her answer was to understand reality better and better. Can we understand the characteristic of sanna now? Even the aspect or function of marking? There can be awareness of thinking now and we can begin to understand the conditions for thinking, such as sanna. All the realities are performing their functions while we’re talking about them. Without sati, they can’t be known. It has to be the way of detachment. You may wish to ask for more detail on this or raise further points in India. Metta, Sarah ======== 50433 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Swee Boon, > You are welcome to your opinions, of course, but can you support them > with evidence from the Pali Canon? Where does it say the > concentration arising with right understanding is not enough? > > Ken H Excuse me for butting in, but where did the Buddha state that Right Concentration arises with Right Understanding? I haven't come across that teaching myself. (BTW, I appreciate your request for textual support of points. Opinions about movies are just fine, but opinions about the dhamma must be supported- in my opinion.) Metta, James 50434 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 557 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness' is consciousness or citta or vinnaana. There are 89 state of mind or there are 89 mental states or there are 89 cittas or there are 89 vinnaanas. All these are vinnaana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness. These 89 states are just characterisation of citta and in essence citta or consciousness is to know or to be conscious to their object. Because of sankhaara-kkhandhaa and other naama-kkhanhdas like feeling and perception there have to be 89 different states of mind. These are about the shortest moments ever exist. Among 4 naama-kkhandhaa, vinnaana-kkhandha are cittas while other 3 naama-kkhandhaa are cetasika dhamma. Cetasikas have been discussed in the old posts of Dhamma Thread. 89 different cittas have also been enumerated and explained before. In the previous post lokuttaraa cittas, aruupaavacara cittas and ruupaavacara cittas have been enumerated. What we should have mastered is 54 kaamaavacara cittas or 54 sensuous consciousness or 54 states of mind that happen in sensuous plane. They are nothing but what we have passed through daily. Even right now there are many kaamaavacara cittas that have happened when we are reading these scripts. These 54 kamaavacara cittas or to short kama cittas are a) 30 asobhana cittas or 'non-beautiful consciousness' b) 24 sobhana cittas or 'beautiful consciousness' a) 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness are 1. 12 akusala cittas or 12 unprofitable or unwholesome consciousness 2. 15 ahetuka vipaaka-cittas ( 7 akusala-vipaaka & 8 kusala-vipaaka) 3. 03 ahetuka kiriyaa-cittas ( 2 non-javana and 1 javana cittas ) ----- +++30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness 12 akusala cittas are not beautiful, no doubt. And they are even very ugly and unagreeable. 15 ahetuka vipaaka-cittas are also not beautiful because they do not have any beautiful hetus or beautiful root-dhamma like non-attachment, non-aversion, and non-ignorance. Likewise all 3 ahetuka kiriyaa-cittas are also not beautiful because they lack beautiful roots. Hasituppaada or smiling-consciousness of arahats is also non-beautiful because it lacks beautiful roots. 12 akusala cittas are 8 lobha-muula-cittas, 2 dosa-muula-cittas and 2 momuuha cittas or 2 moha-muula-cittas. 2 moha cittas are uddhacca-citta or restless-consciousness and viicikicchaa citta or suspicious-consciousness. 2 dosa cittas are associated with domanassa or mental displeasure and they do cause destruction (pa.tigha) to both its home (hadaya) and its environment. One citta is unprompted and another is prompted consciousness. 8 lobha cittas are 4 somanassa cittas or 4 joyous-consciousness and 4 upekkhaa-cittas or 4 indifferent-feeling consciousness. Each of these has 2 sets; one is ditthi-sampayutta or citta with ditthi or wrong view and another set is ditthi-vippayutta or citta without ditthi or wrong view. These 4 different sets ( 2 somanassa ditthi, 2 somanassa without ditthi, 2 upekkha ditthi, 2 upekkhaa without ditthi ) again have 2 cittas in each set. They are prompted consciousness and unprompted consciousness or sasankhaarika citta and asankhaarika citta. These 8 cittas are mental states that arising most of the time when we are conscious to current objects ( that is when it is not the time of bhavanga cittas or life continuing consciousness ). May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50435 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi Ken H, > You believe it is not enough that right concentration arises > automatically with its forerunner, right understanding. According to your opinion, Right Resolve automatically arises with Right View Right Speech automatically arises with Right View Right Action automatically arises with Right View Right Livelihood automatically arises with Right View Right Effort automatically arises with Right View Right Mindfulness automatically arises with Right View Right Concentration automatically arises with Right View Out of the 24 conditions in the Abhidhamma, which one says that Right View conditions the other 7 path factors to arise auto-magically? > You are welcome to your opinions, of course, but can you support > them with evidence from the Pali Canon? Where does it say the > concentration arising with right understanding is not enough? I can't find evidence in the Pali Canon that contradicts your argument in the positive, simply because the Buddha never said that Right Concentration arises automatically together with Right View (at least according to my understanding). I think you are asking for an impossible evidence! However, you may prove yourself right if you could find evidence from the Pali Canon that supports your opinion. Regards, Swee Boon 50436 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:54am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Nina and James, > ----------------------------------- > J: > Yeah, just close your eyes. > ----------------------------------- > > Hmmm, I don't see any appreciation of Abhidhamma in that sentiment. > More a complete denial of it, I would think. Never mind - "To each, > his own." > > Ken H Thank you very much for the sentiment of "to each his own". I appreciate you not trying to force your views upon me, but you still wanted to comment nevertheless. I can understand that. To reply: first, I wasn't aware that I was commenting about the Abhidhamma. To me, the Abhidhamma is a very specific textual document recited at the Third Buddhist Council and amended/added to somewhat after that. To you, from my perspective, Abhidhamma is a nebulous term applying to all Buddhist practice and thought. We are speaking two different languages and posit different meanings because of that. It is no secret that I don't believe the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta who then taught it to 500 disciples. Only a Buddha can teach the dhamma properly and I'm sure that Sariputta would have declined such a momentuous undertaking, if the Buddha had indeed offered. Anyway, there are so many holes in the story of the Abhidhamma's origins that it resembles swiss cheese more than historical fact ;-)). However, even saying that, I do see some value in the core of the Abhidhamma as a meditation manual/treatise/reference. It is ironic that I would see the Abhidhamma in such a different light than yourself, but, as you so aptly put it "to each his own". Metta, James 50437 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:49am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > You wrote: > ---------------------- > > Dear Ken H (and Swee ), > > I did not find Swee said sammaa-samaadhi comes first. But he did say > sammaa-samaadhi is supported by the other 7 sammaa-dhamma. > -------------------- > > Swee objects to the way K Sujin interprets the Dhamma - i.e., by > emphasising that right understanding comes first. He thinks the > emphasis should be on right concentration and formal meditation. > > I admit, Swee did say samma-samadhi was supported by the other 7 > samma-dhamma, but as you know, that was not all he said. He wrote: > > "The Buddha's approach is to develop Noble Right Concentration > (supported by the other 7 Noble Right Factors) that penetrates > anicca, which subsequently penetrates anatta. > Khun Sujin's approach is to accumulate moments of understanding about > conditions and relinquishing control to achieve the glimpse of > anatta . . ." > > You wholeheartedly endorsed Swee's version of the Dhamma and his > extensive criticism of K Sujin. At the same time, you > downgraded the Abhidhamma saying it was something we should > not "overdose" on. That was very strange coming from the author of > so many Adhidhamma threads. Perhaps your attachment to formal > pracitce is stronger than you think. (?) > > Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Thanks for your post. I am learning. I am in the mid-way. I just poke here and there. One of the wise says 'if it serves for you, it is good to you and if it serves for me, it is good to me'. How nice! There is NO SELF whatever it is. So if formal meditation does not serve for you just do what you like and what suits to you. I WILL repeat. There is NO SELF whatever it is whever it is whenever it is. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50438 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken H., > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Swee Boon, > > > You are welcome to your opinions, of course, but can you support > them > > with evidence from the Pali Canon? Where does it say the > > concentration arising with right understanding is not enough? > > > > Ken H > > Excuse me for butting in, but where did the Buddha state that Right > Concentration arises with Right Understanding? I haven't come across > that teaching myself. ____________ Dear James, MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA III II. 3. 5. Maagandiyasutta.m III. 2. 7.Mahaacattaariisakasutta.m-The Longer discourse on the forty-(117) "I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One lived in the monastery offered by Anaathapindika in Jeta's grove in Saavatthi. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus from there. `Bhikkhus, I will preach the noble, right concentration together with the means and accessories, listen carefully and attentively Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with these seven factors is called noble right concentration together with the means and the accessories. Bhikkhus, here right view is foremost." I must reply to your post about accumulations soon too. Robertk 50439 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > > You believe it is not enough that right concentration arises > > automatically with its forerunner, right understanding. > > According to your opinion, > > Right Resolve automatically arises with Right View > Right Speech automatically arises with Right View > Right Action automatically arises with Right View > Right Livelihood automatically arises with Right View > Right Effort automatically arises with Right View > Right Mindfulness automatically arises with Right View > Right Concentration automatically arises with Right View > > Out of the 24 conditions in the Abhidhamma, which one says that Right > View conditions the other 7 path factors to arise auto-magically? > > > You are welcome to your opinions, of course, but can you support > > them with evidence from the Pali Canon? Where does it say the > > concentration arising with right understanding is not enough? > > I can't find evidence in the Pali Canon that contradicts your argument > in the positive, simply because the Buddha never said that Right > Concentration arises automatically together with Right View (at least > according to my understanding). > > I think you are asking for an impossible evidence! > > However, you may prove yourself right if you could find evidence from > the Pali Canon that supports your opinion. > > ++++++++ Dear Swee Boon, Is this sutta is relevant to your discusssion: "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up." Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 50440 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi James & RobertK, > "I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One lived in the monastery > offered by Anaathapindika in Jeta's grove in Saavatthi. The Blessed > One addressed the bhikkhus from there. `Bhikkhus, I will preach the > noble, right concentration together with the means and accessories, > listen carefully and attentively > > Bhikkhus, what is noble right concentration together with the means > and accessories? It is right view, right thoughts, right speech, > right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour and right > mindfulness. Bhikkhus, the mind's one pointedness, endowed with > these seven factors is called noble right concentration together > with the means and the accessories. > Bhikkhus, here right view is foremost." I think it is most unfortunate that RobertK picked MN 117 in support of the argument that right concentration arises automatically with right view. I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation is much clearer. ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak." "Yes, lord," the monks replied. The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions. ------------------------------------------------------------------ If A supports B, it does not mean that B is automatically present too. If A is a requisite condition for B, it also does not mean that B is automatically present too. Regards, Swee Boon 50441 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi RobertK, > Is this sutta is relevant to your discusssion: > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > springs up. For > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > right effort, > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > right > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > knowledge > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > springs up." > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 All right! I am convinced that we only need a One-fold Noble Path consisting of just Right View. Thanks RobertK, your post is so enlightening! Regards, Swee Boon 50442 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi Htoo, > One of the wise says 'if it serves for you, it is good to you and if > it serves for me, it is good to me'. I wonder which one of the wise said this? Is it the Buddha? But I don't think this statement is wise in anyway. Regards, Swee Boon 50443 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi Ken H, > Swee objects to the way K Sujin interprets the Dhamma - i.e., by > emphasising that right understanding comes first. He thinks the > emphasis should be on right concentration and formal meditation. Just a minor correction here. Right View of course comes first. But we shouldn't stop at Right View. Otherwise, there is no progress. Regards, Swee Boon 50444 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? onco111 Hi Swee Boon, The noble path is 8-fold, i.e., eight components. Would it possible in your view for Right Concentration to arise together with Wrong Understanding? Wrong Effort? If such a thing were to occur, could it rightly be said to be the path? Metta Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > > Is this sutta is relevant to your discusssion: > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > > indication of the > > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > > indication of > > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > > one of > > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > > speech, right > > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > > springs up. For > > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > > right effort, > > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > > right > > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > > knowledge > > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > > springs up." > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 > > All right! I am convinced that we only need a One-fold Noble Path > consisting of just Right View. > > Thanks RobertK, your post is so enlightening! > > Regards, > Swee Boon 50445 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:12am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi Dan, > The noble path is 8-fold, i.e., eight components. > > Would it possible in your view for Right Concentration to arise > together with Wrong Understanding? Wrong Effort? Impossible! > If such a thing were to occur, could it rightly be said to be the > path? Never Ever! Regards, Swee Boon 50446 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:14am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 1? htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your beautiful summary of all we have discussed or summary of what I posted and replied. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo, Comments, mostly on your Dhamma Threads – as usual in note form and in no particular order: 1 (for Nina too) #48511, you translate ayatana as sense-base. I think Nina usually uses `base'. I'm sure I've used both. When I was last in Bkk, I was reading out from BB's translation where he also uses `sense-base' and `sense-bases' for salayatana etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Aayatanas are 'proliferators of cittas so also of cetasikas'. So I think whatever is used it would be true; base or sense-base. I use sense-base to differentiate ayatana from vatthu, which is translated as *base* . Example; hadaya vatthu = heart-base. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: K.Sujin stopped me and said this was inaccurate as sense bases refer to eye-base etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know which is inaccurate. What appear in mind is *mind- sense*. What appear in eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body are all senses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: I asked for her suggestion and she suggested we just use ayatana or `meeting-points' in translation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again this is also not accurate even though it may make sense. The original meaning may drift away with time if we persistently use 'meeting-points'. It is place. So it may be called 'meeting-places' rather than 'meeting-points'. Point and place may or may not be confused in Thai but I prefer place rather than point. Here point may also have the meaning of place while it aslo has some meaning of time rather than place. It is place. The place where devas dwell is called *deva-ayatana*. The place where cakkhu vatthu dwell is called *cakkhu-ayatana* or *cakkhaayatana*. The place where sota vatthu dwell is sotaayatana. The place where ghaana vatthu dwell is ghaanaayatana. The place where jivhaa vatthu dwell is jivhaayatana. The place where kaaya vatthu dwell is kaayaayatana. The place where mano dhaatus ( mano-dhaatu and mano-vinnaana-dhaatu ) dwell is manaayatana. This does not mean hadaya vatthu is manaayatana but what is manaayatana is *mano-dhaatu and mano-vinnaana-dhaatu*. The place where rupa (colour/form/shape/light) dwell is ruupaayatana. The place where sadda dwell is saddaayatana. The place where gandha dwell is gandhaayatana. The place where rasa dwell is rasaayatana. The place where photthabbaa dwell is photthabbaayatana. The place where *dhamma* dwell is dhammaayatana. Here *dhamma* have no place to dwell if it is considered like others. Dhamma here are cetasikas, nibbana and 16 sukhuma ruupas. So the place where dhamma dwell is cetasikas. The place where dhamma dwell is nibbana. The place where dhamma dwell is 16 sukhuma ruupa. So 16 sukhuma ruupa, nibbana, and cetasikas are dhammaayatana because dhamma dwell there in those cited dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: The point is that the dhammas referred to are only ayatanas when there is a `meeting' of these inner and outer ayatanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It may make sense that it is meeting points. Because they are only called when they meet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: 2 #48648 on the 8 vimokkhas. We had some brief discussion about how there has to be a gradual liberation from everything and these are referring to degrees of such liberation. A difficult area . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: 3 #49002 You say that according to the suttas (or suggest) that issa (jealousy/envy) and macchariya (stinginess) are not eradicated by sotapatti magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not say but my writing might suggest so and that was not my intention. What I wrote is from abhidhammatthasangaha. It is a small text. It is called *little finger atthakathaa*. From that I extended to other references. The primary source is that text. It writes 2 sets of fetters (I think). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: I had a long discussion with James on this. The commentaries make it very clear that the meaning of the suttas is that they are eradicated. I gave many textual references before, inc. sutta refs. Also, you say that according to the suttas, kaama raga (attachment to sensual objects) and patigha (ill-will) are only eradicated by arahatta magga. Ah, but then you go on later to say they are eradicated by anagami magga. Pls check. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally wrong. Maybe I was thinking in other way. It seemed not a typo. But that fact is wrong. I think I was referring to thina & middha and not to 'kaama raaga and patigha'. The error might have been *transferral error*. Because I wrote on my own site where there is just me. Then I transfer them to another site where there are just a few members. And then to DSG, triplegem, dhamma-list, and JourneyToNibbana. If you remember, please tell me which number of DT makes that mistake. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: As you say, there is no difference in meaning in the lists and I don't read any difference in the texts with regard to the eradication of the fetters. 4 #49104 I think you are confusing sense bases, sense objects and ayatanas again. I also think this is exactly the way that many well- known translators confuse them too – not really understanding what ayatanas are even theoretically just a little. Not easy, I know. Leaving aside your comments about fetters arising at ayatanas (??), you translate manayatana as mind and dhammayatana as mind object or thinkable object. This is misleading as I see it. See UP- ayatanas as we discussed at length before:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Might be. Once you pointed out to me that I made mistake dhammaayatana with dhammaarammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: 5 #49517 (not a DT, but a post to me on the Satipatthana Sutta) We agree that there cannot be the seeing of cittas, let alone the arising and falling of cittas `in other individuals'. However, you suggest the references to perceiving externally `includes Sammasambuddhas'. However, I don't believe the satipatthana sutta was being addressed to Sammasambuddhas, do you?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I means 'the meditator perceive that ruupa or naama are also arising in other individuals'. In that other individuals Sammaasambuddhas are included. And Sammaasambuddhas are also perceivers of *that ruupa or naama are also arising in other individuals*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: You also say that `the meditator pereceives that these dhammas that have arisen in him/her will also be arising and passing away in other individuals.' This may be correct, but it's only thinking rather than moments of satipatthana (except for those with special abhinnas etc). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was not talking on abhinnaa. Even if it is abhinnaa, abhinnaa are not perceiving other's naama or ruupa. Abhinnaa are perceiving naama or ruupa of the individual who attained abhinnaa. It might well be thinking. But not simple thinking like uninstructed beings. And this thinking is not the ordinary thinking that happen in daily life. Satipa.t.thaana is *arising of sat at naama or ruupa*. It may be at naama or ruupa that derived from 'what we all speak physical body and body related matters'. it may be at naama called vedanaa. It may be at naama called vinnaana or cittas. It may be at dhamma, which may be naama or ruupa like cakkhu-pasaada. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: The same applies to your comments on realizing the elements exist in others and so on. Later you agree with my other comments which suggest the externally refers to the awareness of our `own' cittas, cetasikas and rupas on account of what is seen or heard or experienced, here or there, conditioned by `onself' or `others' and that `we just know our own mind and our own senses'. Maybe a little agreeing with both sides as KenH might suggest:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: He he. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 6 #49513 (another post to me) On uddhacca (restlessness) as a hindrance in the development of samatha and attainment of jhana, you suggest it is something different to the mental factor accompanying all akusala cittas. I can't find any evidence for this in the Ab.Sangaha or commentary. I read all the hindrances as referring to cetasikas arising very, very often now as we speak! Do you have any refs on this? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, well, well. Is kaamacchanda-niivarana called uddhacca-niivarana? Is byaapaada-niivarana called uddhacca-niivarana? Is thina-middha-niivarana called uddhacca-niivarana? Is viicikicchaa-niivarana called uddhacca-niivarana? Any akusala at any moment do have *uddhacca* cetasika as their mental accompaniment. Kaamacchanda-niivarana when it is arising there does arise *uddhacca* cetasika. Doesn't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: More to go, but I'll give us both a break. A couple of times at least now, you've referred to all the many `seeing-teachers/hearing- teachers here on this list'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are you (Sarah), Jon, Robert K, Amara (old member), Nina, Sukin, Rob M, Tep (while in other lists and now this list as well), and many others. Hello Others, please forgive me if I drop you from my example list. Please see my VERY FIRST post at DSG. How bad? When I surfed, I found 'Jonathan Abbot site' and read there. My main reason to read at that time was just to accustom words like 'fetter, defilement, canker, attention, etc etc' which were all blank to me. But as side- effects I also had to learn something more deeply when I read those posts at DSG. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: I'd be very glad if they'd also help us out with any of our discussions and if they'd make their presence known a little more. Perhaps you can gradually introduce them. In any case, we're glad if anyone takes the trouble to read or join in our threads, aren't we Htoo?. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: A few joined. I think 'not joining' might be because of repeatition, because of clarity, because of complexity and many other factors. Some even though there are ego's in there and so they never read as soon as those posts arise. Even when there are joiners, the discussion at that thread are also in old old DTs. This reveals that old old posts were not read. I did notice when there were old old posts, they were there in the fast stream of DSG's messages. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Metta, Sarah p.s Many thx for the off-list note on 'ganthas' -- see the next update of UP soooon! ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pleasure, :-)) 50447 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:17am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? Understanding and Right View buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee (and RobertK) - > > > RobertK: Is this sutta is relevant to your discusssion: > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > > indication of the > > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > > indication of > > wholesome states. > > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > > one of > > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > > speech, right > > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > > springs up. For > > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > > right effort, > > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > > right > > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > > knowledge > > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > > springs up." > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 > > Swee: All right! I am convinced that we only need a One-fold >Noble Path consisting of just Right View. > > Thanks RobertK, your post is so enlightening! > Swee, you are good at debate : you knew where the weakest link in RobertK's position was, and you simply broke that link. Good Job. RobertK seemed to be in a hurry to win the debate so much that he forgot to compare AN 10:121 with the more extensive discourse MN 117. Hence his simplistic logic that "the right view is foremost" simply means that all other Path factors spring from the right view is half correct. The faulty understanding that "right understanding" is all it takes for one to become an Arahant is another misunderstanding of some DSG members. It is true that adhipanna sikkha(higher training in understanding - wisdom) is accomplished by the Arahant, but full understanding(parinna) is not the beginning: it is supported by adhisila sikkha(higher training in virtues) and adhicitta sikkha(higher training in concentration). "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers ..." [see Nyanatiloka Dictionary : Sikkha] Sincerely, Tep ========= 50448 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 2? htootintnaing Continuation of Htoo 1: Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo, #49741 (to Nina and I on Cetasikas-Wrong View) I agree with most your comments. Howeve, when you say `theoretical understanding is not as strong as personal experience', are you referring to `book-learning vs sitting quietly in meditation' or are you referring to `pariyatti vs patipatti'? If it's the latter, i.e pariyatti is not as strong as patipatti, of course there is no disagreement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I referred to pariyatti and pa.tipatti. Even in The Buddha time there was a monk who understood everything that The Buddha taught so far. He might be conferred as tipi.takadhara or he who bears all teachings. That monk taught dhamma to his younger disciples monks and they became enlightened while he was still a puthujana. The Buddha teased him as 'tuccha, tuccha, ..'. I think that monk's understanding is much much much better than DSGs. But he was still puthujana. Because even though he understood all (at pariyatti level) he has not done any pa.tipatti. He asked for instructions to the elders. Did he not know *the instructions*? Of course he did. But even though he knew it is not pa.tipatti. Elders all handed over to younger and younger monks and finally this went to 7-year-old arahat. 7-year-old arahat tackled the case and soon that elder monk became an arahat. I think, he was Po.thila. I do not remember. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: When it comes to book study and sitting quietly, of course there may or may not be any pariyatti even. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not every reading is pariyatti. Not any doing is pa.tipatti. Sukin would agree, :-)). And I may be reading and in the interim there might be pa.tipatti. Sitting is not necessarily *pa.tipatti*. There may be people sitting quietly developing many akusala. But formal-informal sitting, ha ha ha. I do not want to comment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: If there hasn't be any listening and wise reflection on present dhammas, there's no chance of there even being pariyatti which can only ever arise with panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sujinisation? True. I agree. Totally agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: I think the point that can easily be missed (eg in your discussions with Sukin or comments here on forgetfulness etc) is that no one is recommending that you should visit a battle, pub or brothel or that there should be breeding of forgetfulness in order to be aware of it. The point is that all dhammas are conditioned. If by conditions now, there is forgetfulness or lust or bad speech, for example, in any place (again by conditions only) it is only such present dhammas that can be known. This doesn't mean that you might as well follow any deeds or actions or go to any harmful place. That would not be the middle way or any understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was just amusingly discussed that. Serious on screen, amusing aside. This does not mean I do what I do not do. Ha ha ha. Or this does not mean 'I say what I do not do'. Do not go entangled. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: The same discussion I've been having with Howard. I liked your comment at the end: `Following the rules as the rules while understanding what one has been doing is not siilabbataparaamaasa. As long as there is panna there is no siilabattaparaamaasa." ...... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. Sariputta worshipped The Live Buddha. This is ritual. Whenever we visit Buddhist monastry and see monks we sit down with bare feet and worship. This is ritual. But when there is no more idea of ATTA, there is no reason to say that person who is worshipping The Live Buddha has siilabbatta-paraamaasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: #50094 (also on Cetasikas-Wrong View) I like this: "Bush does not arise, Bush does not pass away. Htoo does not arise, Htoo does not pass away. There is no dhamma that is called `Bush'. There is no dhamma that is called `Htoo'. " .... S: I have a lot more to go, but need to attend to some other tasks now.... Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your feedback and comments. Take care. Look after your self. :-)) With much respect, Htoo Naing 50449 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 3? htootintnaing Continuation of Htoo 2?; [ maybe also discussions with Nina] Hi Htoo (& Nina), 1.#50095 (Breathing Treatise to Tep) You wrote that `If someone perfects indriyasamvarasiila it will become adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and not through discussions among Groups for understranding.' S: Can we say instead that indriyasamvarasiila and adhi siila will only be developed and perfected through the development of satipatthana? Then it's a question of how we define satipatthana again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, anything wrong in this statement? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: You also say `this siila also leads to adhi-citta. If someone stays with indriyasamvara siila his mind is pure.' I would rather say that adhi-siila, adhi-citta and adhi-panna develop with each moment of satipatthana. No one `stays with indriyasamvara siila'. There is a guarding of the faculties with each moment of sati. When there's no sati, no guarding of `staying with' anything pure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. Serialness is just a mental linking. Thay arise together like D.O links of salaayatana, phassa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: 2.#50177 In many, many posts like this one, you use the word `stock' of dhamma. Pls can you tell me what the Pali is for `stock'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is my own word. It is created word. It is new word. If you do not like that please just let it go. Actually there is no stock of dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Also, `event', is this a translation of dhamma, as in `all these events happen at the very very same time in a moment...' You also say `In the whole event where there comprises all 9 events there is a feeling.' I know others use `events' too, but I always find it rather misleading in reference to paramattha dhammas or elements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I might have used 'event' for arising dhamma, passing away of dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: 3.(For Nina too )#50181 You discuss sanna in different contexts and categories --- lots of excellent material in your post on a difficult topic. Very good. Btw, Nina, I think you've suggested a couple of times that in different contexts, sanna can refer to insight for example, as in the sutta quoted in Cetasikas where sanna is translated as `idea'. I may have misunderstood your comments, but when I raised this point a couple of times with KS, she stressed that sanna always refers to sanna, never to panna. We can use different terms to classify which sanna it is, such as sanna with insight,but it is still sanna. Even when we refer to n'evasa~n~naanaasa~n~naa, it seems like it's a citta being referred to, but actually it's the sanna with the citta being referred to. Even if it says in the text or commentary by way of explanation that it's citta or insight, it's sanna! Also, Nina, you asked us to raise the topic of sanna as a condition for more attachment with KS and to elaborate on some of her comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/47645 I quoted the comments and mentioned your request. Her answer was to understand reality better and better. Can we understand the characteristic of sanna now? Even the aspect or function of marking? There can be awareness of thinking now and we can begin to understand the conditions for thinking, such as sanna. All the realities are performing their functions while we're talking about them. Without sati, they can't be known. It has to be the way of detachment. You may wish to ask for more detail on this or raise further points in India. Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nina will be responding. For me my post was just an old post. I wrote that when I was very allergic to *memory* as a translated word for sannaa. I did research on sannaa and posted that to TeachingsOfBuddha, DSList. Amara became very angry to read that exact post while you (now and also other people) seem pleased now to read sanna that I wrote. When I put that post into DT form, I just tagged with 'opening and closing' of DT. With much respect, Htoo Naing 50450 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Htoo, > > One of the wise says 'if it serves for you, it is good to you and if > > it serves for me, it is good to me'. I wonder which one of the wise said this? Is it the Buddha? But I don't think this statement is wise in anyway. Regards, Swee Boon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Swee Boon, He is a Buddhist monk. He is a scholar. He was once asked by a Muslim that 'who is better Allah or Buddha?'. The monk just told him 'Do not be silly. If Allah serves for you, it is good to you. Allah does not serve for me.' The Muslim smiled and left. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50451 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:08am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > The noble path is 8-fold, i.e., eight components. > > > > Would it possible in your view for Right Concentration to arise > > together with Wrong Understanding? Wrong Effort? > > Impossible! > > > If such a thing were to occur, could it rightly be said to be the > > path? > > Never Ever! > > Regards, > Swee Boon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Friends, A.t.tha`ngiko maggo. NEP or Noble Eight-fold Path is a translated word for 'a.t.tha`ngiko maggo'. Maggo is THE PATH. A.t.tha`ngika is an adjective. -ika indicates comprising, pertaining, concerning etc etc. A.t.tha means eight. A`nga means limbs or parts. So the Path has to have all 8 limbs. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50452 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 558 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness' are 89 cittas. There are 4 classes of cittas. They are sensuous, fine-material, non- material, and supramundane. There are 54 sensuous consciousness. 12 akusala cittas ahve been explained. These 12 cittas can do the job of mental impulsion when cittas are in procession while taking current object. Citta may take the currently arising object. If this is the case that citta is called viithi citta or consciousness-in-procession. When not in procession, there is no viithi citta. So as a being, who does have kamma to continue life, there has to arise a life continuing consciousness or bhavanga citta. These bhavanga cittas take the object of *marana-asanna-javana* cittas of immediate previous life. Those javana cittas are last series in a life. So its object seems to be past object. In a life of a being wherever he or she or whatever is, the first citta is vipaaka citta or resultant consciousness. It is called pa.tisandhi citta. The last consciousness is also vipaaka citta or resultant consciousness. That last consciousness is called cuti citta or dying consciousness. In between are life-continuing consciousness (all these consciousness are vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness) if viithi cittas or consciousness-in-procession cannot arise. When these consciousness-in-procession or viithi citta arise is when there is a current object of attention like colour, sound, smell, taste, touch, dhamma or mind-object. The first viithi citta is panca-dvaara-avajjana citta or 5-door- adverting consciousness. It is one of 3 ahetuka kiriyaa-cittas of 54 kaamaavacara cittas. After this first viithi citta there follows without interruption panca-vinnaana citta. This has to be according to the object arise if it is 5-sense-object. There are 10 panca-vinnaana cittas. 5 are akusala vipaaka-cittas and 5 are kusala vipaaka-cittas. They all are resultant consciousness or vipaaka cittas while 5-door-adverting consciousness is kiriyaa-citta. If the current object is colour(light, form, shape) panca-vinnaana citta is cakkhu-vinnaana citta or eye-consciousness. If it is sound, panca-vinnaana citta is sota-vinnaana citta or ear-consciousness. If smell, ghaana-vinnaana citta or nose-consciousness, if taste, jivhaa- vinnaana citta or tongue-consciousness and if touch (pathavi or tejo or vayo), kaayavinnaana citta or body-consciousness arises. In the procession, after this panca-vinnaana citta there follows sampaticchana citta or 'receiving consciousness'. There are 2 consciousness of this kind. One is akusala vipaaka-citta and another is kusala-vipaaka citta. After that there follows santirana citta or investigating consciousness. There are 3 santiirana cittas and all 3 are vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness. One is akusala santiirana citta. Other 2 cittas are kusala santiirana cittas. One is upekkhaa- santiirana and another is somanassa-santiirana citta. 2 upekkhaa- santiirana cittas can do the job of pa.tisandhi, bhavanga, and cuti citta and they also do the job of retention or tadaarammana citta even though they are santiirana cittas, which are doing investigating function. So there are 7 akusala vipaaka-cittas and 8 kusala vipaaka-cittas. All are vipaaka cittas and they are resultant consciousness. In akusala vipaaka there are eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, receiving consciousness, and investigating consciousness altogether 7 citta. The same number occurs in kusala vipaaka cittas. So there are also 7 kusala vipaaka-cittas. But there is an extra investigating consciousness and it is somanassa-santiirana citta. So there are 8 kusala vipaaka-cittas. 7 are akusala-vipaaka and 8 are kusala-vipaaka cittas. All are vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness. So there are 15 vipaaka cittas in 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. After investigating consciousness there arise determining consciousness. This job is done by mano-dvaara-avajjana citta or mind- door-adverting consciousness. This citta is not vipaaka citta. It is kiriyaa citta. It is non-javana kiriyaa citta. It is ahetuka kiriyaa citta. After determining consciousness there are 7 successive consciousness arise. They are called consciousness in mental impulsion or mental impulsive consciousness or javana cittas. They are chief cittas that create new kamma if these javana cittas are not kiriyaa-javana cittas. Kiriyaa-javana cittas arise ONLY in arahats. 12 akusala cittas can do the job of mental impulsion. Other cittas that can do the job of javana or mental impulsion are 8 mahaakusala cittas and 8 mahaakiriyaa cittas. While 8 mahaakusala cittas create new kamma, 8 mahaa-kiriyaa cittas do not create any new kamma. There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. One is panca-dvaara-avajjana citta or 5-door-adverting consciousness and another 2 are mano-dvaara- avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness and hasituppaada citta or smiling consciousness of arahats. 12 akusala cittas, 7 akusala-vipaaka cittas, 8 kusala-vipaaka cittas and 3 ahetuka kiriyaa cittas are 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non- beautiful consciousness. There are 24 kaamaavacara sobhana cittas or 24 kaama-sobhana or 24 beautiful sensuous cittas. They are 8 kusala, 8 vipaaka, and 8 kiriya cittas. As there are other kusala cittas, 8 kusala cittas of 24 kama- sobhana cittas are called mahaa-kusala cittas. Likewise, 8 vipaka are 8 mahaavipaaka cittas and 8 kiriyaa are 8 mahaakiriyaa cittas. 8 mahaavipaaka cittas can do the job of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti while it can also do the job of tadaarammana or retention function. 8 mahaakusala citta and 8 mahaakiriyaa cittas can do the job of javana cittas or mental impulsion consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50453 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:23am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 3? Indriya-samvara-sila buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Htoo, Swee, and James) - I just want to quickly point out an error in your understanding of indriyasamvarasiila, just leave adhisila alone for a while; it is more advanced. >Sarah (asking Htoo): You wrote that `If someone perfects indriyasamvarasiila it will become adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and not through discussions among Groups for understranding.' >S: Can we say instead that indriyasamvarasiila and adhi siila will only be developed and perfected through the development of satipatthana? Then it's a question of how we define satipatthana again. Tep: No, I don't think so. The error is caused by your bias toward satipatthana (all followers of K. Sujin seem to have this bias). It is not true that indriyasamvarasiila "will only be developed and perfected through the development of satipatthana" -- it is the other way around! Just go back to the Kundaliya Sutta one more time. Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6: ----------------------------------- "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. [endquote] Sarah, I will revisit the issue of "biasedness" toward satipatthana later on. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Continuation of Htoo 2?; [ maybe also discussions with Nina] > > Hi Htoo (& Nina), > > 1.#50095 (Breathing Treatise to Tep) > > You wrote that `If someone perfects indriyasamvarasiila it will > become > adhi-siila. This siila can only be done through actual meditation and > not through discussions among Groups for understranding.' > > S: Can we say instead that indriyasamvarasiila and adhi siila will > only be developed and perfected through the development of > satipatthana? Then it's a question of how we define satipatthana > again. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Well, anything wrong in this statement? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 50454 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? onco111 So, can any of the samma factors arise by themselves? Or, for example, must right view arise only with right concentration with it? Can right view arise with wrong concentration? Or is Robert right? Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > The noble path is 8-fold, i.e., eight components. > > > > Would it possible in your view for Right Concentration to arise > > together with Wrong Understanding? Wrong Effort? > > Impossible! > > > If such a thing were to occur, could it rightly be said to be the > > path? > > Never Ever! > > Regards, > Swee Boon 50455 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:31am Subject: More on metta ( was Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? philofillet Hi James I will pare your post down to the points on metta, if you don't mind. Thanks for the reply, and the humour. ( The bottom spanking will probably not happen much, but who knows?) > In my case, sometimes > > I give a great lesson and have a lot of patience on the surface > > because I am concerned about my image but as soon as that happens, > > it is not metta, it is lobha. > > James: Yes, that isn't metta. Really, I don't have concern about my > image too often when I am teaching. Actually, I don't have concern > about my image hardly anytime. That is what I keep stressing to you. Yes, the spontaneity of your posting style does suggest someone who doesn't care what others think of him. Basically, I'm that way too. But when we are with other people, surely a subtle desire to be liked to be well received creeps in, a subtle awareness of oneself and the other, which is all mana, and lobha and so on. Subtle, but always there, I'd assume, for anyone but the sotapanna. And when this is at the root of the kind gesture, it is not lobha. Which is not to say that the kind gesture shouldn't be made anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting that I sit there cringing in concern about whether there is kusala or not. That would be unnatural. There certainly is metta, arising in daily life. It is very powerful and don't think for a moment that I reject the notion of metta or deny its importance. > > There are so many motivations for our > > kindness to others - sometimes it is metta. Or often it is metta. > We > > cannot know so easily when it is metta and when there is lobha or > > other things at work. > > James: Just be mindful and you can know. It isn't as impossible and > complicated as K. Sujin and Nina paint it out to be. I know you think that I am just parroting what I have heard from Nina and A. Sujin, and in a sense I guess I am - I think repeating what we have heard is an important way to condition understanding of it. But I have been around in the Buddhist internet universe, read this, read that, tried this, tried that. For about 10 years, off and on, with various pitstops in new agey crapola. When I chanced on Abhidhamma, a light went on. I knew I had found the truth. A. Sujin and Nina express it well, so I respond to their writing/teaching. My doubts about metta meditation were in place before I came across DSG. And you are wrong in saying that A. Sujin says metta is difficult or impossible. Actually, this is one area I disagree with her. In the Perfections that I'm listening to, she often says things like "when we realize we have tendency to hatred, we should have loving kindness" (rough paraphrase), as in identifying a shortage of loving kindness and doing something about it. That is wrong, I think. I would say "when we are aware of hatred, there can be loving kindness." The mindfulness would be a condition for the arising of metta, naturally. The "we should" is wrong, I think. You know the sutta which convinces me that we cannot have metta just by wishing for it. Give me an A, give me an N, give me another N.....Along with the one that makes it very clear right from the beginning (it was the Buddha's third discourse, to the 5 bhikkhus, so must have a predominant place in the canon) that the eye etc are burning with hatred, greed and delusion. Sobering stuff. The Buddha > didn't teach something that is practically impossible. Even when > the Buddha had doubts about teaching the dhamma, his doubts were > because he knew that most people wouldn't be interested, not because > he believed most people couldn't do it. This is very important to > remember. For the umpteenth time I *know* he said we could do it. "It is possible to cultivate the wholesome, monks." But I don't think he said it would be easy. Thus the stress on how many aeons we have come through, how many tears we have cried, the mountain of bones that we have accumulated. It will take a long time. If we could sit down and move into the divine abodes so easily, the journey would be much shorter than it obviously it. Yes, I know you say that the aeons we have come through do not indicate that there are aeons to go. But surely it is not easy. The bhikkhus who become arahants by the hundreds in certain suttas? I don't know what to say about that except to say that we are not those bhikkhus. They were in the presence of the Buddha. Oh, I guess I snipped the sutta on the benefits of metta. I used to peruse that one with great interest. Predictably, I now think that considering the benefits of kusala other than the support it gives us for the eradication of defilements is best avoided. But you posted it in response to my "being loved isn't metta" comment, so it is relevant in terms of the Buddha's teaching, certainly. Phil 50456 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:31am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 3? Indriya-samvara-sila htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, Sarah (Htoo, Swee, and James) - I just want to quickly point out an error in your understanding of indriyasamvarasiila, just leave adhisila alone for a while; it is more advanced. > >Sarah (asking Htoo): You wrote that `If someone perfects > indriyasamvarasiila it will become adhi-siila. This siila can only be > done through actual meditation and not through discussions among > Groups for understranding.' > > >S: Can we say instead that indriyasamvarasiila and adhi siila will only > be developed and perfected through the development of > satipatthana? Then it's a question of how we define satipatthana again. Tep: No, I don't think so. The error is caused by your bias toward satipatthana (all followers of K. Sujin seem to have this bias). It is not true that indriyasamvarasiila "will only be developed and perfected through the development of satipatthana" -- it is the other way around! Just go back to the Kundaliya Sutta one more time. Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6: ----------------------------------- "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated,fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. [endquote] Sarah, I will revisit the issue of "biasedness" toward satipatthana later on. Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, Eagle-eyes. Well-spotted. I think this is because of detailed abhidhamma that biasedness arises. So indriyasamvara siila has to be rw-written because of biasedness. With respect, Htoo Naing 50457 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:41am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: So, can any of the samma factors arise by themselves? Or, for example, must right view arise only with right concentration with it? Can right view arise with wrong concentration? Or is Robert right? Dan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Friends, Stop the fire. Do not blow any more. What is *right*? What level of *right*? There are many many rights. Among right-views, 'the right-view of NEP' is perfect. It is perfect because it is equally supported by other 7 paths. All 8 are in fullest stage in NEP. Perfected in NEP. NEP only and *ONLY* arise when lokuttaraa cittas arise. Otherwise 'right-view is not perfected'. Right-view of NEP does not have to go first or last.It is parallel. Is there a single path? Yes. Paths are for transporting to other side. There is a path called A. That path A link X with Y. By the path A, one can go from X to Y. One reaches Y by path A. Right-view as a single path does exist. But it is not NEP. Right-view as a single path helps understanding. Starting place is non-understanding. Destination is understanding. The path is a single path called right-view. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: There are dvadassa magga. There are 12 paths. Now I thinks friends are using wrong-view as a path. So they are reaching the destination of possible fighting. 50458 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:47am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 3? Indriya-samvara-sila buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (and all) - Your observation is like a hammer hitting a nail squarely on its head. >Htoo: Eagle-eyes. Well-spotted. I think this is because of detailed > abhidhamma that biasedness arises. So indriyasamvara siila >has to be re-written because of biasedness. > Tep: Indeed, the trouble here is the rewriting of the Buddha's Teachings by words from the "ancient" commentaries, debatable words from K. Sujin's teachings, or even someone's overdosed biases. Thank you for your reply, Htoo. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Hi, Sarah (Htoo, Swee, and James) - > > I just want to quickly point out an error in your understanding of > indriyasamvarasiila, just leave adhisila alone for a while; it is > more advanced. > (snipped) 50459 From: nina Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:11am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] An overdose for Htoo 1?ayatanas. nilovg Hi Sarah, Important that the dhammas referred to are only ayatanas when there is a meeting’ of these inner and outer ayatanas. This shows that what we read in the texts is never abstract, never static, always actuality, always happening in real life. We can apply this principle also to other subjects, like: dhammas that are subject to clinging etc. we have been discussing. As to the English: meeting points, we could find another word? Association? As to points I do not know. This is a matter of language, finding the right word. Nina. op 21-09-2005 10:03 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > 1 (for Nina too) #48511, you translate ayatana as sense-base. I think Nina > usually uses ‘base’. I’m sure I’ve used both. When I was last in Bkk, I > was reading out from BB’s translation where he also uses ‘sense-base’ and > ‘sense-bases’ for salayatana etc. K.Sujin stopped me and said this was > inaccurate as sense bases refer to eye-base etc. I asked for her > suggestion and she suggested we just use ayatana or ‘meeting-points’ in > translation. The point is that the dhammas referred to are only ayatanas > when there is a ‘meeting’ of these inner and outer ayatanas. 50461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 277- Wrong View/di.t.thi (m) nilovg Dear Ng Boon, I just add to a few points. op 20-09-2005 12:48 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: >> ========================================== >> [Ch16- Wrong View (di.t.thi) >> >> Questions. >> >> i What is an example of wrong practice which people >> may >> follow today? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Too many ranging from even > breaking the 5 precepts like killing, take what is not > given, sexual misconduct, etc. N: I could add: one may think that akusala should not be an object of awareness and right understanding. One may believe that there can only be awareness when one leads a secluded life, that it is impossible in daily life. ------- >> Ng B: ii Why is the proximate cause of wrong view “not to >> see >> ariyans”? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Ariyas gain 16 knowledge (Nana). > Sotapan already eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters ... ------ N: The Commentary explains that the desire not to see ariyans also means that one does not realize the characteristics of impermanence etc. That one does not attain the dhamma they attained. If one does not associate with the right friend in Dhamma one can fall into wrong view and wrong practice. --------- Ng B: iv In which way can one think of past lives with >> wrong view? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): 18 Views dealing with the past > 4 Views holding that self (atta) and the world are > eternal(sassata ditthi).....(snipped) ------ N: I like your detailed answer. -----------------> Ng B: >> v Personality view can be eradicated through >> mindfulness of >> nåma and rúpa. Why is that so? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Mindfulness or Right mindfulness > have the 2 function: > 1. To recollect (example: Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, > Sila, Generosity, Devata, Death, Body, Breathing, > Calmness.) > 2. To Valuate (what is advantage to know, do or say > and not to know, do or say). > I would think there are certain extend Right > Mindfulness play an important role but I would also > think that 8 Fold path is correct practice to > eradicate Wrong View. ------- N: Yes, mindfulness of nama and rupa actually implies: following the eightfold Path. --------- Ng B: 8 Fold Path start from Right > View and end with Right Concentration for many many > rounds. This means that eradication of wrong views > also start round after round until you attain 1st > sainthood. -------- N: I like it that you stress: many, many rounds. ------------- >> >> vi Why does one not cling to speculative theories >> anymore >> when personality belief has been eradicated? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): When one see Anica, Dukha, Anata, > Nama/Rupa, one would know that only Nama/Rupa exist > (The ultimate Truth). One would be able to > differentiate between conventional and ultimate truth. > However Nibbana is still far away as one must attain > all 16 knowledge (Nana) to attain stage of Sotapan. ------- N: It is good you mention the 16 vipassana ñaanas. And so important to differentiate between conventional and ultimate truth, as you say. Personality belief, sakkaya di.t.thi, is a foundation for all other kinds of wrong views. ---------- Ng B: >> vii When there is no awareness is there wrong view >> all the >> time? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Wrong View only can be eradicated > fully when one attain 1 Sainthood (stage of Sotapan). > One can have awareness and still have wrong views > unless one is min a Sotapan. --------- N: There can also be conceit and many other kinds of akusala. ---------- >> >> viii What is the difference between ignorance and >> wrong view? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): Moha or ignorance is a cetasika. > It is a condition dhamma which arises if the condition > permits. Panna or Wisdom is also a cetasika and also a > condition Dhamma. If one do a kusala action and Wisdom > arises, one can still have wrong view unless the one > is a sotapan with will fully eradicate wrong views). > View is what we understand or see the world, self, > stuff etc. ------- N: At the moment of kusala citta wrong view does not arise, but it is accumulated as a latent tendency. Moha darkens the true nature of dhammas, and it accompanies each akusala citta. Ditthi has a distorted view about dhammas, a wrong interpretation. It arises only with lobha-muula-citta. One clings to one's view. -------- Ng B: >> ix Why are the three kinds of wrong view which are >> akusala >> kamma patha particularly dangerous? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): No matter how much Kusala patha > one do, one can still be born in suffering planes > especially hell if one has views and/or greed. And > this 3 heavy Wrong View will lead one to Apaya World. ----- N: These three can give rise to many evil deeds. -------- >> Ng B: Why is it wrong to believe that we can see and >> hear at the >> same time? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): there is NO 2 cittas arising at > the same time. One think one can hear and see at the > same time is because one is not aware that by the time > one see and hear, so many cittas has arised and > falled. Just like is the river the same? The river > will always look the same but it is NOT the same as it > will never be the same water that flow each time you > look at it. ------- N: I like your explanation. --------- Ng B: xi Does the fact that wrong view has not been >> eradicated have >> any influence on our morality (síla)? > 9/20/2005 (mr39515): depanding on how heavy is that > wrong view. The heavier one will most probably cause > akusala kamma patha which the not so gross type of > wrong view may just have no relation to our action > thus not affecting Sila. Sila is a practice and one of > the first few kusala kamma. Retification of views is a > much heaver kusala kamma. (the last I believe of the > 10 kusala kamma). ------- N: Yes and we can see the difference with the sotapanna who has eradicated wrong view. He will never transgress the five precepts and not commit heavy akusala kamma that can lead to an unhappy rebirth. For him mindfulness has become a power, bala, and it can arise in any situation. The worldling always lives in danger. Nina. 50462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on metta; use of words. nilovg Hi Phil: instead of we should: 'we better have...' I think this is a matter of spoken words. The idea behind it is certainly not forcing. Actually, we realize the danger of akusala, and come to see the value of kusala. This is implied by the word should I think. We can use the word should losely, not as a comandment, Just as we use the word 'we', not in a precise way. Nina. op 21-09-2005 18:31 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Actually, this is one area I disagree with her. In > the Perfections that I'm listening to, she often says things > like "when we realize we have tendency to hatred, we should have > loving kindness" (rough paraphrase), as in identifying a shortage of > loving kindness and doing something about it. That is wrong, I > think. I would say "when we are aware of hatred, there can be loving > kindness." The mindfulness would be a condition for the arising of > metta, naturally. The "we should" is wrong, I think. 50463 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 0:28pm Subject: Thinking that we should ( was Re: More on metta; use of words. philofillet Hi Nina > instead of we should: 'we better have...' I think this is a matter of spoken > words. > The idea behind it is certainly not forcing. Ah, I see. "You had better" is better. Suggests the danger of akusala rather than urging a technique. It surprised me to hear so many "we should"s in that chapter, but I will think of them we "we had better." Here's what A. Sujin said about "should" in the chapter on equanimity: "When we listen to the Dhamma we may be inclined to think that we should act in a particular way so that we have wise attention or can abandon the defilements. However, if we understand realities as non-self, the question of whether we should act in a particular way will be solved." As soon we think "I should do this in order to increase X" there will naturally be a process of self checking - "am I doing it right? yes, I'm doing it! I'm doing it" or "no, that's not right, that's not what it says in the sutta, I should be doing this..." This would go on and on, compounded by debates in which one proves ones point by the sutta and the "should" turns into a solid chunk of self-view. The whole point of the Buddha's teaching, detachment, is lost. We become so tied up in concern about results, about technique, about doing things right, getting it right. We look at the path factors and figure out what to do to get them right. All self trying too hard, when patient reflection and right understanding of conditions will lead to the path arising, ever so gradually. If we have right understanding and confidence in kusala, instead of thinking "we should" we understand "there can be." There can be a moment of metta, or sati, or kusala virya, conditioned by one that arose before, and any moment of kusala conditions another. "He made that moment predominant and it conditioned more" as that line in the beautiful pasage of the Bodhisatta seeing the dew drop with wisdom had it. It is not passive and not hopeless. The Buddha's teaching is a powerful conditioning factor. If we reflect patiently on it, kusala will be conditioned. It will be a very gradual process but, with right understanding and saddha and khanti and virya and other conditioned kusala, that will not bother us. Here is the next part of the above passage: "If we do not reflect on the practice of the Bodhisatta in each of his lives, and if we do not evaluate our own practice in this life and compare it with his practice, we shall not know that it will take an endlessly long time to abandon defilements." Actually, this is a statement that could mislead some people as well. They might say "well, I'm not doing enough - there should be "something extra" as a sutta has it, and they will decide to devote themselves to rigorous meditation or stricter ascetic practices. Imitating the Bodhisatta. But we can't imitate the Bodhistatta when it comes to wisdom, so, again, off on the wrong path. So insted of saying "evaluate own practice in this life" I might say "evaluate our own understanding, realistically" or something like that. One line you use in the feelings chapter in Cetasikas is something like "studying Abhidhamma we come to understand how much we *don't* know." That is so important. Some people take that as pessismism or hopelessness. I take it as an encouraging and necessary first step, one that prevents plunging down an imitation of the right path with wrong understanding hidden and mistaken confidence. Phil 50464 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:10pm Subject: "The Satipatthana Bias" buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (and all) - Of course, the Buddha said 'ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo', but he taught many, many other suttas besides the Satipatthana Sutta, the Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness (MN10). One's obsession with a single dhamma can often lead to wrong views. Examples: the obsession with not-self or no self; the obsession with right view or right understanding. As Swee Boon rightly pointed out, right view is just one of the eight path factors. Similarly, satipatthana is just samma-sati, and it is only one of the 8 path factors. ["And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. DN 22] Lately, Sarah, you have even tried to claim that satipatthana alone would automatically make indriya-samvara-sila perfect . Is this your own experience, or just a speculation? Your tendency to view satipatthana as the key dhamma that subsumes everything else that was taught by the Buddha (except, perhaps, Anattalakkhana Sutta?) has injected biasedness into your discussions. An evidence to prove this point is given below. # 49538 : > Tep: In the previous two vatthus there is only the word ' pajaanaati ', >not 'sikkhati', for example : Digham vaa assasanto digham >assasaami-ti pajaanaati, which means ' while breathing in long, >he knows "I am breathing in long",' etc. Does anybody knows why >the text drops 'pajaanaati' and turns to 'sikkhati' instead? .... Sarah: I think that what's difficult often is to know when the reference is to samatha development and jhana and when to satipatthana development. Rightly or wrongly, I take the first reference here (in and out etc) with sikkhati to be referring to samatha development and the latter example you give with pajaanaati to be referring to satipatthana. .... #50397 : Sarah: You asked what else `the breathing meditator' can do to train in the higher sila-samadhi-panna. All that can ever be done for such a training is the development of satipatthana. It makes no difference whether there has been prior development of samatha or what prior development has taken place. Tep: I hope to hear from other DSG friends in response to this post about the satipatthana bias. Am I wrong about Sarah? Or, do I have my own bias that has biased my comments? Please advise ! Respectfully, Tep ==== 50465 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:10pm Subject: More on metta ( was Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Phil, Though I need to get to bed pretty soon (already past my bedtime) I am going to respond to your post. This will be somewhat rushed- keep that in mind. (Yeah, I could wait until later, when I have more time, but later will always present more things I have to do. Might as well respond now.): Phil: Yes, the spontaneity of your posting style does suggest someone who doesn't care what others think of him. Basically, I'm that way too. But when we are with other people, surely a subtle desire to be liked to be well received creeps in, a subtle awareness of oneself and the other, which is all mana, and lobha and so on. James: Maybe this does for you but not for me. Really Phil, I am not trying to BS you; I don't care what people think about me- and that isn't because I hate people and don't value their opinion, it is because I am not that concentrated on "me". However, that isn't to say I'm not affected by posts and by people thinking about me, but that has more to do with psychic impressions I recieve. And again, you can believe that or not- I don't care. The Buddha taught about psychic ability rising from meditation and considering that I have been seriously meditating for several years it isn't unusual for me to bring up this subject now and again. Phil: Subtle, but always there, I'd assume, for anyone but the sotapanna. James: As far as Sotapanna, I am just about sick to death about that subject in this group!! Members keep bringing up the subject of Sotapanna like it is some kind of grand and glorious thing- like becoming a Sotapanna is the ultimate goal. HELLO!! A Sotapanna is not that high in wisdom, he/she must live at least seven more lifetimes (which could turn out to be even more if they stay in the same realm at any point), and becoming a Sotapanna isn't the final goal. Why is there so much focus on Sotapanna in DSG? Why isn't the focus on non-returner or Arahant? That is where we should all strive to be. Phil: And when this is at the root of the kind gesture, it is not lobha. Which is not to say that the kind gesture shouldn't be made anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting that I sit there cringing in concern about whether there is kusala or not. That would be unnatural. James: Phil, I don't always understand your "yes-no-maybe-yes-no- maybe-yes-no-maybe" messages. Just a friendly reminder: try to collect your thoughts before you write a post. Know what you want to say and stick by your words!! I know that we are all uncertain at times but it can be very confusing to members (including me) to be so uncertain in your posts. Hope you understand and are not offended. Phil: It is very powerful and don't think for a moment that I reject the notion of metta or deny its importance. James: Oh, so we have been debating nothing for all these posts? Phil, if you didn't reject the notion of metta or deny its importance I wouldn't have anything to say to you about it. Don't try to butter me up with these empty words- I know better. You can change your position at anytime, and that would be honorable, but you should own up to your prior position before blazing a new trail. Phil: I know you think that I am just parroting what I have heard from Nina and A. Sujin, and in a sense I guess I am - I think repeating what we have heard is an important way to condition understanding of it. But I have been around in the Buddhist internet universe, read this, read that, tried this, tried that. For about 10 years, off and on, with various pitstops in new agey crapola. When I chanced on Abhidhamma, a light went on. I knew I had found the truth. A. Sujin and Nina express it well, so I respond to their writing/teaching. James: Okay. Phil, I hate to do this but I am going to be somewhat rough in my response. If it took you ten years of wandering around on the Internet to find your supposed "truth", then you still aren't done. Sujin and Nina are just another pit stop on your search for nibbana/ the truth. Those who know the "truth" and know what they are looking for, don't waste so much time looking, especially when the dhamma is so readily available. The Abhidhamma is about as New Age, in 'Ancient's Clothing', as you can get. I hope you don't think your search is over. Phil: My doubts about metta meditation were in place before I came across DSG. James: That figures. To be honest, you seem to have doubts about everything. Sujin and Nina appeal to those who have doubts about the dhamma- which isn't a good thing. Theirs is a ministry to the disenfranchised and the dregs of the spiritual community- the bottom of the barrel. Those who view themselves as so low already (like yourself) are immediately drawn to their teaching of no control and no responsibility- with little or no hope of impoving things. Theirs is a dhamma directed to the Prozac Nation. Phil: And you are wrong in saying that A. Sujin says metta is difficult or impossible. Actually, this is one area I disagree with her. ... You know the sutta which convinces me that we cannot have metta just by wishing for it. Give me an A, give me an N, give me another N.....Along with the one that makes it very clear right from the beginning James: Sujin may contradict herself (and she does quite often actually), but the Buddha never contradicted himself. The Buddha taught that cultivating lovingkindness is important and realizing anatta is important. The fact that you cannot see how these two go together is more a reflection on yourself than the Buddha. Look deeply at what you consider metta to be; look deeply at what you consider anatta to be; and look deeply at the fact that the Buddha had no problems reconciling the two. The problem is yours, and the problem is mine, but the problem is never the Buddha's. Phil: For the umpteenth time I *know* he said we could do it. "It is possible to cultivate the wholesome, monks." But I don't think he said it would be easy. Thus the stress on how many aeons we have come through, how many tears we have cried, the mountain of bones that we have accumulated. It will take a long time. James: You are mixing up the messages of two different suttas. We don't have to try to eliminate suffering for as long as we have experienced it. Where did you get that idea? The Buddha made it very simple: Practice with all earnestness and expect liberation here and now within seven years to seven days. No mention about several lifetimes. (Maybe this is something you picked up from all those mp3s you downloaded. I will have to contact Naomi and have her wash your mp3 player again! hehehe...) Lovingkindness, James 50466 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, ch 4, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/05 2:12:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Question: Dhammas arise and then fall away, but they are succeeded by new > dhammas. What is the reason that the body of each one of us gradually decays > and is subject to old age? Since dhammas are replaced by new ones, why can > the body not stay as in chilhood, and why are rúpas of the body ageing, what > causes ageing? > > Sujin: Is fire hot? > > But Sawong: It is hot. > > Sujin: Is it very hot or lukewarm? > > But Sawong: It is very hot. > > Sujin: If the fire is only very slight, it cannot burn anything. When > someone is newly conceived, the element of fire is only slight , because the > body does not have many groups of rúpa, kalapas [1] . As a person grows up, > he reaches an age that the element of fire is just right and that his body > has beauty. After that the element of fire becomes stronger, it burns more > intensively and it is destructive, so that the body is no longer beautiful. > Old age appears in the body of those who are in planes of existence that are > not the result of refined kusala kamma, such as the heavenly planes and the > brahma planes. > ======================= Another possible explanation, I think, is that the characteristic of impermanence applies not only to paramattha dhammas, but also to patterned assemblies of interrelated paramattha dhammas (even though some folks may view them as "mere pa~n~natti"). The Buddha in many suttas seems to have applied the tilakkhana conventional phenomena as well as to paramattha dhammas. He said that whatever arises, ceases, and he included all the common conventional phenomena of our world of concept. The fact of paramattha dhammas not remaining has consequences at the conventional level of experience, and is reflected in the commonly observed alteration, decay, and demise of conventional objects such as human bodies. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50467 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:57pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / A Discussion Format for #50363. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Let me make a few brief comments for this post of yours, and move on to the next one that has more meat. H: Good idea. Continue. But remember that there is no self who is doing these things so there may or may not be conclusion or final agreement. T: Usually it is the opposite. A person who penetrates the not-self truth (anatta sacca) has no problem to agree or disagree with others. Any sutta that is a dialogue between two arahants will tell you exactly that. For example, MahaKotthita agreed with Sariputta in the following sutta. SN XII.67: On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. MahaKotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the evening, arising from his seclusion, Ven. MahaKotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "Now tell me, Sariputta my friend: Are aging & death self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or -- without self-making or other- making -- do they arise spontaneously?" ... ... ... "It's amazing, friend Sariputta. It's astounding, friend Sariputta, how well that was said by Ven. Sariputta. And I rejoice in Ven. Sariputta's good statements with regard to these 36 topics. If a monk teaches the Dhamma for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to aging & death, he deserves to be called a monk who is a speaker of Dhamma. .... etc. ......................... H: There is a citta along with vitakka, vicaara, piiti, vedana ( as sukha-vedana), ekaggataa and other sankhaara dhamma like manasikaara, jivitindriya, phassa, cetanaa, sannaa and other sobhana cetasika. These dhammas do exist in 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. sotapatti magga citta 3. sotapatti phala citta 4. sakadaagaami magga citta 5. sakadaagaami phala citta 6. anaagaami magga citta 7. anaagaami phala citta 8. arahatta magga citta 9. arahatta phala citta 10.naana-sampayutta kaamaavacara mahaakusala cittas in upacaara jhaana If object is not considered, then all these cittas will have similar degree of concentration. ........................................ T: That looks like a passage that you copied from an unknown source. Can it be found in the Tipitaka? What is your purpose in presenting this material? How relevant is it to our discussion? Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > I think, it is OK provided I have enough time. Here is segment 1 > discussion starts to open. > > With regards, > > Htoo Naing (snipped) 50468 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - My main purpose of breaking down ("partitioning") your message # 50363 is because it does not communicate to me. That is, it is mostly incomprehensible. In addition, it is not supported by a credible authority (e.g. the Buddha and, or the Arahants). Commentaries are sometimes doubtful; Bhikkhu Bodhi also feels the same way. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Continuation: > > Tep summarised Htoo's points as 2 ( of 13 points): > > 2. But magga cittas are never jhaana-cittas even though all magga > cittas and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas. Ruupaavacara ruupa > jhaana-cittas and aruupavacara aruupa jhaana-cittas are never > classified or never said as supramundane consciousness or lokuttaraa cittas. If so, both Alaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta would have attained lokuttaraa cittas and attained nibbana. But they were not. Instead they both were reborn in aruupa realms (Alaara in 3rd realm and Udaka in 4th realm) where there is no eyes to see Sammaasambuddha and no ear to listen The Buddha's Dhamma. So they cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta when now they are in 3rd and 4th aruupa realm respectively. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This part of my post will be a bit heavy for you. I think you will > have many questions. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Remeber Khant-Khema? She asked you several times to communicate to her in such a wy that she could understand you. Question 1: ---------------- Did Alaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta attain samasamadhi, as defined by the Buddha (e.g. SN XLV.8, Magga-vibhanga Sutta, or DN 22)? Why or why not? Don't tell me that because Htoo says something is true and so it must be true. Please give me a valid reference : who said it or wrote it, when and where. Kind regards, Tep ======= 50469 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Samahita: Perceiving Transience ... !!! How Does It Happen? ksheri3 Good Morning Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > > > C: Induce direct knowledge of the ego & ownerlessness of all. > > > colette: IMPOSSIBLE, although I reserve the right to be wrong. There > > is no "beaten path" given in the above definition, a step by step > > direction: see your standard "Popular Mechanics" and to fulfill the > > definition of "Man" one must religiously read and accept as gospel, > > the procedure of the Popular Mechanic. You, Bhikku, have given me a > > plastic piece of a model kit which has it's parts all attached to > > one piece of plastic and I have to recognize each part, detach it > > from the whole, and place it into the model that the piece of > > plastic was manufactured for. If this or that piece of plastic is > > not inserted in the model at the correct time of construction then > > the model itself is not according to "the plan" which is to say you > > have misquoted and misinterpreted what the buddha has said which > > blatantly makes you a pervert. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud4- 01.html > > He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the > conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of > not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting > of the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in the here and now. colette: You imploy a marvelous construction of words, and that is the problem with integrating different cultures/languages into a single homogenous conception: the misinterpretation. It is such a pain to have to read the appoligies in the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (a very big thank you to the Kandy Buddhist Publishing Society, although in Germany we can be speaking of the Illuminati) and find that there are sooooooo many different ways of interpreting the texts. For instance Joop gave me the site for a certain Text which I began printing, albeit slowly, and I find there are many different ways to interpret each line, however, it is printed, PRINTED, in the exact same format as written i.e. line for line, in which case we can see the Buddhist principle of not using "frivelous talk" useless speech. How does one go about interpreting something such as this since ALL OF THESE DAMN SCHOLARS are addicted to PROGRAMMED AS A ROBOT IS PROGRAMMED, "conditioned" as the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha states, into this fruitless was of forcing THE BEATEN PATH to be the only path or the only path that bears any fruit. Which is to say that any deviation from the path most used, The Beaten Path, is then a blasphemy and must be criminalized.<....>------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This sutta says it all. Perception of inconstancy/impermanence induces > the perception of not-self and makes it firm. > > Are you saying the Buddha is a pervert too? colette: something tells me that I've already printed, read, and meditated over this sutta however I am going to check it out again. About the perversions the buddha has or is percieved as having, why would I want to even consider such an ignorant question. You take a position on your own logic or based on your own experiences. You take this position and you not only glorify it but also defend it. That is the same as "obsessing" over this transient position. <.....> Perversions can only occur once a status quo, an equilibrium (see your buddhist references to "ponds"), a position has been established and then and only then can a perversion be acheived. ------------------ > > > > ABC: All pushes one further into the only possible alternative > > > to becoming: > > > colette: AHHHHHHHHHH, what on earth are you trying to say! I can > > picture the cover graphics of King Crimson's CD "21st Century > > Schitziod Man"! "...alternative to becoming" how can you suggest > > such a blatant blasphemy? You, in your obsession with "becoming" > > have then suggested your DESIRE for others and future others to > > SUFFER. This is not a good thing. > > The only possible alternative to "becoming" is nibbana, isn't it? colette: That is a question that really, trully, needs meditation on! I have been questioning myself on the enlightenment that I recieve after so many hours of meditation and have come to begin questioning if this "nibbana" itself is not a manifestation of my own super subconsciousness. Now that I've placed this concept of nibbana or enlightenment or revelation into jeopardy then we can look at the meaning or defintion of "becoming". As Bart Simpson might do while looking at the foundation of a building and seeing the cornerstone loose from it's mortar, reaching out, grabbing the cornerstone and simply removing it: DOES THE BUILDING CRUMBLE? <.....> toodles, colette 50470 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Vism.XIV,194 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 194. (x)-(xi) 'Far and near': this is also as already described (par.73). Besides, relative farness and nearness should be understood here according to location. 50471 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi Dan, > So, can any of the samma factors arise by themselves? Or, for > example, must right view arise only with right concentration with > it? Right Concentration can only arise with Right View as one of its support and requisite condition. > Can right view arise with wrong concentration? Or is Robert right? Right View is a support and requisite condition for the arising of Right Concentration. Right View by itself does not automatically bring about the EVENT of Right Concentration. A person without concentration does not mean that he has wrong concentration. A person without jhanas does not mean that he has wrong jhanas. Right View of course conditions all the other factors to be Right. But Right View does not bring about the actual events/factors themselves. So your argument that "wrong concentration can arise with right view" is not relevant to what we are discussing. Anyway, to satisfy your curiosity, wrong concentration cannot arise with Right View, given that there is Right Effort maintained in developing Right Concentration. Regards, Swee Boon 50472 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:51pm Subject: More on metta ( was Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? philofillet Hi James > James: Maybe this does for you but not for me. Really Phil, I am > not trying to BS you; I don't care what people think about me- and > that isn't because I hate people and don't value their opinion, it > is because I am not that concentrated on "me". Well James, I would have to say there is delusion (moha) at work. But that's OK. I gain saddha from what I believe (and have confirmed) you gain saddha from what you believe and have confirmed. The eye etc are burning with greed, delusion and hatred. That's the Buddha's third discourse. There is no self that can make kusala cittas arise. That is his second discourse. We draw different conclusions from those important discourses, obviously. However, that isn't > to say I'm not affected by posts and by people thinking about me, > but that has more to do with psychic impressions I recieve. And > again, you can believe that or not- I don't care. The Buddha taught > about psychic ability rising from meditation and considering that I > have been seriously meditating for several years it isn't unusual > for me to bring up this subject now and again. And as you know, I don't scoff at it. Personally, I think it is best to not make claims about one's abilities/attainments, but that is because I think it simply morphs into more lobha, not because I think the psychic thing is silly. > > Phil: Subtle, but always there, I'd assume, for anyone but the > sotapanna. > > James: As far as Sotapanna, I am just about sick to death about > that subject in this group!! Members keep bringing up the subject > of Sotapanna like it is some kind of grand and glorious thing- like > becoming a Sotapanna is the ultimate goal. HELLO!! A Sotapanna is > not that high in wisdom, he/she must live at least seven more > lifetimes (which could turn out to be even more if they stay in the > same realm at any point), and becoming a Sotapanna isn't the final > goal. Why is there so much focus on Sotapanna in DSG? Why isn't > the focus on non-returner or Arahant? That is where we should all > strive to be. Hmm. First things first. I think the reason there is emphasis on the sotapanna here is that we have to reach the first stage of enlightenment - eradicating self-view - before we go any further. I know we disagree on this, because you apparently think you have already done so. Nothing I can say will make you think otherwise. That's cool. I certainly don't think of sotapanna as "grand and glorious." That's your "magnificent" thinking at work. The point is that the sotapanna is getting rid of the aspects that make him or her stand out in the eyes of others. But who knows. I doubt there are many sotapannas kicking around in this day and age, but I have no way of knowing and don't think about it. First things first, and aspiring to become an ariyan is not something that catches my enthusiasm at this point. If we think about becoming ariyan, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot, because we are far, far from that, I feel. Again, we will disagree, and that's cool. (BTW, not thinking about becoming a sotapanna does *not* make it any less likely that one will. Conditions at work, not our aspirations for enlightenment. Aspirations in the hands of worldlings are like fire in the hands of tots. But I may feel different about that in five minutes. > > James: Phil, I don't always understand your "yes-no-maybe-yes-no- > maybe-yes-no-maybe" messages. That's the way it should be. Do you think understanding is a constant? If you do, more evidence that you would benefit from returning to a first-things-first attitude. Understanding is not a constant, the khandas rise and fall away, due to conditions. That is Dhamma 101 as far as I can see. Just a friendly reminder: try to > collect your thoughts before you write a post. No, what I write is what I understand at the moment. I think that's wiser. Know what you want > to say and stick by your words!! no, no. this is not right. This is rigidity of views. Won't get us anywhere. We can remain open, and flexible. We *can*, it can happen. If you put on your views like armour before posting it is wrong. I know that we are all uncertain > at times but it can be very confusing to members (including me) to > be so uncertain in your posts. Hope you understand and are not > offended. Not at all. See above. There are many paradoxes in Dhamma. The crossing the flood sutta. Not by standing in place, nor by pressing ahead. There must surely be vaccilation. It's subtle, and organic. Understanding works its way. If someone's posts are always perfectly consistent and logical there is something askuala at work, I'd say. Well, there's always something akusala at work. I'm sure most people have abandoned reading my posts, a la Swee Boon. That's cool. To tell the truth, they are more for me, to help me to work out my undersanding, than for the reader. We have to look after our own understanding. Not much we can really do for the other, in my opinion. They have their accumulations, their conditions. That's what decides their understanding, though we can add to to the conditioning factors a wee bit. > > Phil: It is very powerful and don't think for a moment that I > reject the notion of metta or deny its importance. > > James: Oh, so we have been debating nothing for all these posts? > Phil, if you didn't reject the notion of metta or deny its > importance I wouldn't have anything to say to you about it. Don't > try to butter me up with these empty words- I know better. James, to be honest I think you are a bit thick at times. Haven't you read how often I have said I appreciate that metta can arise in daily life, and will, but thinking that one can generate it out of the blue is wrong? I don't deny metta, I deny using it like a tool to sow one's field. > > James: Okay. Phil, I hate to do this but I am going to be somewhat > rough in my response. If it took you ten years of wandering around > on the Internet to find your supposed "truth", then you still aren't > done. Sujin and Nina are just another pit stop on your search for > nibbana/ the truth. Silly, not Sujin and Nina, it's Abhidhamma. And you may be right. Two short years ago I was very keen on all kinds of intentional practices, including metta, and imagining light pouring out of my forehead and so on. Who knows what I will understand in two years. Nobody. Those who know the "truth" and know what they > are looking for, don't waste so much time looking, especially when > the dhamma is so readily available. The Abhidhamma is about as New > Age, in 'Ancient's Clothing', as you can get. I hope you don't > think your search is over. I don't, believe me. But this has been the firmest pitstop, that's for sure! > Phil: My doubts about metta meditation were in place before I came > across DSG. > > James: That figures. To be honest, you seem to have doubts about > everything. Sujin and Nina appeal to those who have doubts about > the dhamma- which isn't a good thing. Theirs is a ministry to the > disenfranchised and the dregs of the spiritual community- the bottom > of the barrel. Those who view themselves as so low already (like > yourself) are immediately drawn to their teaching of no control and > no responsibility- with little or no hope of impoving things. > Theirs is a dhamma directed to the Prozac Nation. Well, of course I would disagree with that. There is a lot of courage, because there is not taking refuge in intentional practices. I've often said that I do think metta meditation is very valuable for people who are struggling with stress, depression, other forms of mental illness. It *is* healing, and I am interested in healing. But healing and liberation are not quite the same thing. > James: Sujin may contradict herself (and she does quite often > actually), but the Buddha never contradicted himself. The Buddha > taught that cultivating lovingkindness is important and realizing > anatta is important. The fact that you cannot see how these two go > together is more a reflection on yourself than the Buddha. Look > deeply at what you consider metta to be; look deeply at what you > consider anatta to be; and look deeply at the fact that the Buddha > had no problems reconciling the two. The problem is yours, and the > problem is mine, but the problem is never the Buddha's. This is interesting. I will reflect on it. > I will have to contact Naomi and have > her wash your mp3 player again! hehehe...) Don't you dare! I will spank your bottom until it's cherry pink! Phil 50473 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:55pm Subject: More on metta ( was Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hmm. First things first. I think the reason there is emphasis on > the sotapanna here is that we have to reach the first stage of > enlightenment - eradicating self-view - before we go any further. I > know we disagree on this, because you apparently think you have > already done so. Nothing I can say will make you think otherwise. > That's cool. > I certainly don't think of sotapanna as "grand and glorious." > That's your "magnificent" thinking at work. The point is that the > sotapanna is getting rid of the aspects that make him or her stand > out in the eyes of others. But who knows. I doubt there are many > sotapannas kicking around in this day and age, but I have no way of > knowing and don't think about it. First things first, and aspiring > to become an ariyan is not something that catches my enthusiasm at > this point. If we think about becoming ariyan, we are just shooting > ourselves in the foot, because we are far, far from that, I feel. > Again, we will disagree, and that's cool. (BTW, not thinking about > becoming a sotapanna does *not* make it any less likely that one > will. Conditions at work, not our aspirations for enlightenment. > Aspirations in the hands of worldlings are like fire in the hands of > tots. But I may feel different about that in five minutes. Well, concerning the subject if I am a sotopanna or not, I reserve the right to change my opinion. Actually, following the description in the suttas, it seems to me that there are many sotopannas in this group. It's not a bragging thing, but maybe it is wishful thinking, or delusion as you say. I think its quite possible that many in this group were born sotopannas. As for myself, I rejected Christianity and rejected any beliefs in "God" or having a "soul" as a young child and became a Buddhist/Taoist by age 15, and I made these decisions on my own. That is rather unusual for an American without any Buddhist role models, but not impossible I guess. Anyway, this subject doesn't matter a great deal except for its effect on Buddhist practice. As Nanavira Thera writes in "Clearing the Path": "Unless you bring the [practitioner] down to earth, the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotopanna (stream entrant) on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotapanna yourself ... here and now in this very life."86 http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/existence3.html My point was that I don't put the sotopanna on a pedestal so I don't know what all the fuss is about when this subject comes up. I don't have any observations or comments regarding the rest of your post. It has been a pleasure conversing with you, Phil. Lovingkindness, James 50474 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:50pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? onco111 Hello Swee Boon, So, you are proposing that Right View can arise in the absense of Right Concentration but not in the presense Wrong Concentration, is that right? In such a moment of Right View w/o Right Concentration, what kind of concentration arises? A neutral concentration? No concentration at all? Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > > So, can any of the samma factors arise by themselves? Or, for > > example, must right view arise only with right concentration with > > it? > > Right Concentration can only arise with Right View as one of its > support and requisite condition. > > > Can right view arise with wrong concentration? Or is Robert right? > > Right View is a support and requisite condition for the arising of > Right Concentration. > > Right View by itself does not automatically bring about the EVENT of > Right Concentration. > > A person without concentration does not mean that he has wrong > concentration. A person without jhanas does not mean that he has wrong > jhanas. > > Right View of course conditions all the other factors to be Right. But > Right View does not bring about the actual events/factors themselves. > > So your argument that "wrong concentration can arise with right view" > is not relevant to what we are discussing. > > Anyway, to satisfy your curiosity, wrong concentration cannot arise > with Right View, given that there is Right Effort maintained in > developing Right Concentration. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 50475 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:28pm Subject: More on metta ( was Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? philofillet Hi James Wow. We are writing back and forth at a great clip. I think we were lovers in a past life. Could you do a psychic run on that? Before reading your most recent post (which would just get me itching to write back when I have other things to do) please allow me to add something to the point below, which i was reflecting on as I walked. Phil: > Haven't > you read how often I have said I appreciate that metta can arise in > daily life, and will, but thinking that one can generate it out of > the blue is wrong? I don't deny metta, I deny using it like a tool > to sow one's field. I think the way I respond to your posts is a good example. The other day you said something fairly innocuous and I reacted in an irritated way. There were no conditions at that moment for metta to arise, to act as a balm for the dosa, which is the way adosa is described. Today I read much more rough comments and all I felt was friendliness towards you. There were conditions for metta to arise, and dosa (there would have been moments of that too - there are so many moments rising and falling away faster than we can no) was not allowed to take root in a way that would have led to a bitchy response. As I reflected on this, I felt great confidence in kusala. It is working its way, deepening and developing through conditions, through listening to Dhamma, reflecting on it, discussing it with Dhamma friends like yourself, even ones we disagree with. There is no need to try to do anything special, except listen, read, reflect and discuss without hunger for kusala. (If one has conditions that lead to formal meditation done in a natural way, without hunger for results, great - such conditions are not there for me.) BTW, one other thing I wanted to point out on this topic. The other day I said that I have been interested in the way i am sometimes irritated by what I feel (at such moments) to be overly courteous, unnatural tone of discourse here. You picked up and quoted that, but I think you didn't mention the other part of that paragraph (maybe you did) which said that there are other times when I appreciate the courteous tone and sense the goodwill behind it. Again, metta rises and falls in an unpredictable way. It's very inspiring, I feel, very encouraging and in my case at least totally pre-empts any need to try to generate metta in a forced way from a mind in which it is presently absent. (Yes, right effort involves giving rise to wholesome states not yet arisen, that is true. Very subtle point. It involves catching them at the moment they are arising due to conditions - kusala virya doesn't miss the opportunity when there is arising - that's the way I understand it at that point.) I will read your post in a couple of days. It's fun and interesting to have this exchange with you, but you know, nice to leave a little space too. Thanks for waiting. I really feel you're a good friend. There is a lot of metta at this moment, I feel. (But who knows. It could be rooted in happy feeling of having a couple of days off and the Yankees taking over first place in the American League East Division. More lobha.) Phil 50476 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:32pm Subject: No Substance is 'Out There'... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: No Substantial Object exists 'Out There' nor any Subject 'In Here'! The Blessed Buddha once said: In the seen is merely the process of seeing... In the heard is merely the process of hearing... In the sensed is merely the process of sensing... In the thought is merely the process of thinking... So knowing, you will not be connected 'with that'... So disconnected you will not be absorbed 'into that'... So neither 'with that' nor 'into that' You Are! not 'by that' sensation!!! When there is no 'You' inferred or conjectured by that very sensation, then 'You' are neither 'here', 'there', 'both', 'beyond' nor 'in between'... On realizing the importance of this incident the Blessed One exclaimed: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor motion find any footing, there no sun, moon nor star ever shines. There is neither any light, yet nor is there any darkness! When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure & pain ... Source: The Udana - Inspirations by the Buddha: I - 10 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/index.html Comments: There is no-one who senses, nor substance sensed, even though the process of sensing occurs! Seeing is just a selfless event of contact between the eye, the object & visual consciousness. Neither any 'person' nor any 'observer' is involved nor can be inferred just by photographing! No subject or 'I' is thereby created, just because there is an object, or just because there occurs the process of sensing... Sensing itself, thus neither create any object nor any subject, just as a camera - though making an image - do neither create the object, nor the photographer! Neither can any 'substance' nor 'reality' per se be ascribed to neither object nor subject: Just because there is a picture, one cannot by that in itself infer or ascribe any existence to neither the object, nor the picture-maker! Both may be artificial and of past existence... The fact that there is an image projected, does per se imply, in or by itself, that any-one actually is 'looking in' or 'is behind' the camera 'By that' perception no 'perceiver' is thereby present or created... So the 'personal entity' we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy the experience, is merely a mental construct, an habitual idea, a concept, & not a reality... The passive impersonal process of sensing, perception & experiencing cannot thereby be 'instrumental' for neither creating nor inferring any 'being in existence'. The fact of this fundamental 'selflessness' is far the most essential core of the unique Buddha-Dhamma... Outmost important to grasp, yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby difficult & somewhat 'nasty' to comprehend. Keep trying, since this central Anatta doctrine is the opener, releaser & freer of any mind. Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of 'I' & 'World' is both fatal, tragic & sardonically comic... Hehehe ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50477 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 3, no 3. philofillet Hi Nina > N:I heard the other day about energy as continued exertion without stopping, > and I thought of you, how you would react. Ph: My reaction is that there of course cannot be continued exertion. How can it be continued when each citta falls away? Of course, due to proximate conditions, or predominant condition or some condition - I don't understand the details yet - there are many of these energetic cittas arising in a span of time which gives the impression of continued exertion. Sometimes when I hear the commmentary definitions of the characteristics, proximate causes etc of the perfections I think some of them sound like they are termed in very conventional terms that don't quite synch with what we know of paramattha dhammas. But I don't worry about it. I can imagine the "basket of conduct" defining the characteristic of virya as "continued exertion" but I would just let it go because I can't understand it in that way. We understand what we can. >We can see this as an > exhortation, but nobody can force himself to have continued exertion. Of course people try. Even though I write this as though I am above doing so, of course there is subtly trying to have continued exertion. Lobha is rooted so deeply. As > understanding develops there will also be right effort. The factors will > become balanced. As I just wrote to James, I am feeling very, very confident about that these days. Not only does panna work its way - all kusala works its way - if there is patience. I thought listening to Perfections would help in this way, and it has. > Ph; Nina, I would like to hear you read this outloud the way Lodewijk > > reads. Would you consider choosing some material and reading it? > ------ > N: No objection, but my technical skill fails. Tom tried to help me, but no > success, inspite of downloading Audicity for Mac. BTW, I forgot to thank Tom for his help with Perfections. I don't know why it is that I find listening to someone reading to be so much more conducive to understanding than reading, but I do. Perhaps it is because I am walking while I listen, and the mind is refreshed by the exercise and more open to understanding or something. It is usually when I am walking that things really click. In any case, I would like to hear you or anyone else read favourite passages of your books, or A. Sujin's, or suttas, or whatever. There are so many technical problems, I know. In a few years it will be much easier, I'm sure. In the meantime I could continue to record myself reading, as I did with Dhammapada. Say hello to Lodewijk. He has a very noble voice. Reminds me of a Dutch Morgan Freeman. (American actor who is always chosen to do voice work because of his noble sounding voice.) Phil. 50478 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 0:24am Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > I interpret that example > as an example of kamma. Kamma is planted in the past and bears > fruit in the future; is that the nature of accumulations? Don't > accumulations continue to accumulate from now to eternity? With > kamma there is often a gap, with accumulations there is never a > gap. That is my understanding. > > Robert, please address this difference between kamma and > accumulations before we proceed further with this thread. We seem > to be communicating at cross-purposes. > ++++++ Dear James, Your question gets to the heart of the matter. Whenever kamma is done at the same time a habit is also being accumulated. As a metaphor consider the smoker - when he smokes he plants seeds for possible illness sometime in the future. And he is also strengthing the habit of smoking. When I get angry and say something disagreeable I make kamma that will bring a result in the future. But I also strengthen (accumulate) dosa (aversion). About the gap and accumulations. It is complex. If there are not the right conditions accumulations lie latent. Someone could have accumulated a great deal of dosa but be in a situation where there are no triggers for dosa to arise, they seem always calm and kind. Or like the sutta I quoted about the one who is born in the deva world and then it takes a trigger for them to remember the Dhamma - and they then quickly comprehend. Before that trigger they may have seemed ignorant about Dhammic matters. In the Abhidhamma Patthana there are 24 conditions explained. One of them is kamma but kamma condition never arises alone, others are also there. Would like details about these conditions and how kamma and accumlations relate? Robertk 50479 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? kenhowardau Hi James, ------------------------- J: > Thank you very much for the sentiment of "to each his own". I appreciate you not trying to force your views upon me, but you still wanted to comment nevertheless. I can understand that. ---------------------------- Thanks James, I do like to comment - even when my comments are not entirely welcome. :-) Nina was talking about hearing, seeing, touching etc., all happening in the same split-second and yet, only one at a time. That is profound Abhidhamma that I will never tire of hearing. As you kindly pointed out, there is no seeing when we shut our eyes. More to the point, however, there is no seeing when there is hearing - or when there is smelling, tasting, touching or thinking. Grasping this aspect of Abhidhamma is not easy - even at the simplest level - but it is always well worth the effort. -------------------------------------------------- J: > To reply: first, I wasn't aware that I was commenting about the Abhidhamma. To me, the Abhidhamma is a very specific textual document recited at the Third Buddhist Council and amended/added to somewhat after that. --------------------------------------------------- Everything is Abhidhamma. We might not like to admit it, but our whole world is just a small number of mental and physical phenomena. There is one base, one consciousness, one object, contact, perception and the resultant feeling. When we accept that - and not everybody does - we will be interested in knowing more about those phenomena. For that we need the other kind of Abhidhamma - the book. ------------------------------------------------------------ J: > To you, from my perspective, Abhidhamma is a nebulous term applying to all Buddhist practice and thought. We are speaking two different languages and posit different meanings because of that. It is no secret that I don't believe the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta who then taught it to 500 disciples. Only a Buddha can teach the dhamma properly and I'm sure that Sariputta would have declined such a momentuous undertaking, if the Buddha had indeed offered. Anyway, there are so many holes in the story of the Abhidhamma's origins that it resembles swiss cheese more than historical fact ;-)). However, even saying that, I do see some value in the core of the Abhidhamma as a meditation manual/treatise/reference. It is ironic that I would see the Abhidhamma in such a different light than yourself, but, as you so aptly put it "to each his own". ---------------------------- I will not give up on you James - three more converts and eternal bliss in heaven! (Just kidding.) Ken H 50480 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:29pm Subject: Cooling down a bit often helps ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend colette: Just a minor friendly note: Be careful with calling the views of others 'Blasphemy'... Be careful with calling the Bhikkhu Sangha 'Blasphemists'... Be careful with calling the Buddha Dhamma 'Perversions'... One often years later down the path - when cooled down - seriously regrets such 'Bombastic Armsvinging Attacks...' when recognizing, that they have blocked one's progress, even if done in the best intention of defending the: "Real - I see and know much, much better!!!" Dhamma... It is better to wait with clearing the path, until one can actually see the COMPLETE path, clearly & directly... One who wavers: 'although I reserve the right to be wrong' is seemingly not yet freed of all doubt and confusion... When you have thoroughly studied the complete Tipitaka in your own language, or English AND in Pali several times, then automaticly one comes to look at these initial 'Hots' as somewhat premature 'beginner volcanics'... !!! Keep calm, keep cool, don't hurt anybody ... least of all yourself !!! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 50481 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:54pm Subject: Google Gmail is Great! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Google Gmail is Giantly Great: The free Google Gmail Offers: > 2.5 Gigabyte storage !!! No advertisements... Highly efficient Spam filtering! Free, multiple & filterable Forwarding. Free POP and SMTP mail client access. IMHO the very best free email currently! One needs to be invited to it though... If anyone is interested in a free gmail account, then send an email to me: bhikkhu.samahita@... including these words: samahita & gmail, then I will mail you an invitation asap... Have a nice day too ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 50482 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:28am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / A Discussion Format for #50363. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Let me make a few brief comments for this post of yours, and move on > to the next one that has more meat. > > H: Good idea. Continue. But remember that there is no self who is doing > these things so there may or may not be conclusion or final agreement. > > T: Usually it is the opposite. A person who penetrates the not-self truth > (anatta sacca) has no problem to agree or disagree with others. Any > sutta that is a dialogue between two arahants will tell you exactly that. > For example, MahaKotthita agreed with Sariputta in the following sutta. > > SN XII.67: On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. MahaKotthita were > staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the > evening, arising from his seclusion, Ven. MahaKotthita went to Ven. > Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. > After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one > side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "Now tell me, > Sariputta my friend: Are aging & death self-made or other-made or > both self-made & other-made, or -- without self-making or other- > making -- do they arise spontaneously?" ... ... ... > > "It's amazing, friend Sariputta. It's astounding, friend Sariputta, how well > that was said by Ven. Sariputta. And I rejoice in Ven. Sariputta's good > statements with regard to these 36 topics. If a monk teaches the > Dhamma for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with > regard to aging & death, he deserves to be called a monk who is a > speaker of Dhamma. .... etc. > > ......................... > > H: There is a citta along with vitakka, vicaara, piiti, vedana ( as > sukha-vedana), ekaggataa and other sankhaara dhamma like > manasikaara, > jivitindriya, phassa, cetanaa, sannaa and other sobhana cetasika. > > These dhammas do exist in > > 1. 1st ruupa jhaana > 2. sotapatti magga citta > 3. sotapatti phala citta > 4. sakadaagaami magga citta > 5. sakadaagaami phala citta > 6. anaagaami magga citta > 7. anaagaami phala citta > 8. arahatta magga citta > 9. arahatta phala citta > 10.naana-sampayutta kaamaavacara mahaakusala cittas in > upacaara jhaana > > If object is not considered, then all these cittas will have similar degree > of concentration. ........................................ T: That looks like a passage that you copied from an unknown source. Can it be found in the Tipitaka? What is your purpose in presenting this material? How relevant is it to our discussion? Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Not a copy. Words may be similar. But all are my summary. When you do not identify the object what a citta takes then we have to examine what are the components of that citta. There is a consciousness. That consciousness does not deal with sensuous hindrance, not with ill-will, not with sloth & torpor, not with upset, not with worry, not with doubt what is that citta like in terms of concentration? With Metta, Htoo Naing 50483 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > My main purpose of breaking down ("partitioning") your message # > 50363 is because it does not communicate to me. That is, it is mostly > incomprehensible. In addition, it is not supported by a credible > authority (e.g. the Buddha and, or the Arahants). Commentaries are > sometimes doubtful; Bhikkhu Bodhi also feels the same way. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Continuation: > > > > Tep summarised Htoo's points as 2 ( of 13 points): > > > > 2. But magga cittas are never jhaana-cittas even though all magga > > cittas and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas. Ruupaavacara ruupa > > jhaana-cittas and aruupavacara aruupa jhaana-cittas are never > > classified or never said as supramundane consciousness or > lokuttaraa cittas. If so, both Alaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta > would have attained lokuttaraa cittas and attained nibbana. But they > were not. Instead they both were reborn in aruupa realms (Alaara in > 3rd realm and Udaka in 4th realm) where there is no eyes to see > Sammaasambuddha and no ear to listen The Buddha's Dhamma. So > they cannot see anicca, dukkha, anatta when now they are in 3rd and > 4th aruupa realm respectively. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > This part of my post will be a bit heavy for you. I think you will > > have many questions. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Tep: Remeber Khant-Khema? She asked you several times to > communicate to her in such a wy that she could understand you. > > Question 1: > ---------------- > > Did Alaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta attain samasamadhi, as > defined by the Buddha (e.g. SN XLV.8, Magga-vibhanga Sutta, or DN > 22)? Why or why not? Don't tell me that because Htoo says something > is true and so it must be true. Please give me a valid reference : who > said it or wrote it, when and where. > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Anyone who know Buddhavamsa know Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta. Both attained all ruupa jhaana. Basing on this both attained 1st and 2nd aruupa jhaana. But Aalaara Kalama further attained just 3rd aruupa jhaana while Udaka Raamaputta further attained 3rd and 4th aruupa jhaana. If you do not believe ask any Thera who have learnt all tipitaka in detail. When they both had attained all 4 ruupa jhaana, will you say they attained sammaa-samaadhi? With Metta, Htoo Naing 50484 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:48am Subject: Nothing is not clear htootintnaing Tep wrote: 1. When 'the object' is not considered while sammaa-samaadhi is studied,then the power of concentration will be the same that is almost the same in both cases of genuine ruupa jhaanas and lokuttaraa cittas. So it can be said that magga cittas arise with the power of jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is segment 1 or partition 1 that you have made. It is OK. You can ask more or discuss on this matter or expand further. Dhamma-wise There is a citta along with vitakka, vicaara, piiti, vedana ( as sukha-vedana), ekaggataa and other sankhaara dhamma like manasikaara, jivitindriya, phassa, cetanaa, sannaa and other sobhana cetasika. These dhammas do exist in 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. sotapatti magga citta 3. sotapatti phala citta 4. sakadaagaami magga citta 5. sakadaagaami phala citta 6. anaagaami magga citta 7. anaagaami phala citta 8. arahatta magga citta 9. arahatta phala citta 10.naana-sampayutta kaamaavacara mahaakusala cittas in upacaara jhaana If object is not considered, then all these cittas will have similar degree of concentration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear all, I cannot find anything that is not clear. Each and every citta has to take an arammana or object (aarammana paccayo). There is no citta that does not have any object or aarammana. Citta has to depend on vatthu or base, which is a ruupa. As the current topic is about sammaa-samaadhi ruupa is not needed to discuss. Citta has to depend on vatthu (ruupa) and also has to depend on object (arammana). When aarammana or object is not talked then citta has to be investigated. There are 89 states of mind. There are 47 cittas that do have wisdom. Only these 47 cittas may well be sammaa-samaadhi. Because all 47 tihetuka cittas are sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. These 47 cittas are a) 4 naana-sampayutta mahaakusala cittas b) 4 naana-sampayutta mahaavipaaka cittas c) 4 naana-sampayutta mahaakiriya cittas d)15 ruupaavacara cittas e)12 aruupaavacara cittas f) 8 lokuttaraa cittas ------- ++47 cittas When arammana or object is not talked then we have to see what these 47 cittas are. If some cittas do have the exact components of mental factors then it can be said that the power is almost the same. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50485 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:56am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee (and Dan) - Without any question, anybody who knows what right view means must say, " Swee Boon has the right understanding of right view". > > > Dan :Can right view arise with wrong concentration? Or is Robert right? > > Swee: Right View is a support and requisite condition for the arising of Right Concentration. > > Right View by itself does not automatically bring about the EVENT of > Right Concentration. > > A person without concentration does not mean that he has wrong > concentration. A person without jhanas does not mean that he has wrong jhanas. > > Right View of course conditions all the other factors to be Right. But > Right View does not bring about the actual events/factors themselves. > > So your argument that "wrong concentration can arise with right view" > is not relevant to what we are discussing. > > Anyway, to satisfy your curiosity, wrong concentration cannot arise > with Right View, given that there is Right Effort maintained in > developing Right Concentration. > Keep on thinking rightly and writing rightly, Swee. Respectfully, Tep ========== 50486 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 559 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Vi~n~naana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness' are 89 cittas. There are 4 classes of cittas. They are sensuous, fine-material, non- material, and supramundane. 54 sensuous consciousness have been explained. There are other vinnaanas that are vinnaana-kkhandhaa or aggregates of consciousness. They are a) 15 ruupaavacara cittas or 15 fine-material consciousness b) 12 aruupaavacara cittas or 12 non-material consciousness c) 8 lokuttaraa cittas or 8 supramundane consciousness ----- 35 cittas ( 35 + 54 = 89 total cittas ) 15 ruupaavacara cittas are 5 ruupa-kusala cittas, 5 ruupa-kiriya cittas or arahats and 5 ruupa-vipaaka cittas of life-continuing cittas (also patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness and cuti citta or dying consciousness). These 5 cittas in each group are 5 ruupa jhaanas. When there are all 5 jhaanas it is 1st jhaana, when one drops 2nd, 2 drops 3rd, 3 drops 4th jhaana. In 4th ruupa jhaana there are 2 jhaana factors. In 5th ruupa jhaana one of jhaana factor called vedana, which is sukha in 4th ruupa jhaana becomes upekkhaa-vedana in 5th ruupa jhaana. Likewise there are 12 arupavacara cittas. 4 aruupa-kusala, 4 aruupa- kiriya and 4 aruupa-vipaaka. 4 aruupa-vipaaka cittas are patisandhi, bhavanga, and cuti citta of arupa brahmas. 4 aruupa-kiriya cittas are aruupa jhaana or arahats. Again these 4 aruupa jhaanas have to be 4 because there are different 4 objects. But jhaana-factor-wise all 4 aruupa jhaana just have ekaggataa and upekkhaa. 8 lokuttara cittas are 4 lokuttara kusala cittas and 4 lokuttara vipaaka cittas. Kusala are magga and vipaaka are phala here in 8 lokuttara cittas. These 4 and 4 are just stages of enlightenment namely a) stream-entering b) once-returning c) non-returning d) eradicating All these are vinnaana-kkhandhaa that is all 89 cittas are vinnaanas and they are vinnaana-kkhandhaa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50487 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 560 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 clinging aggregates or 5 upadaana-kkhandhaa. They are 1. ruupupadaana-kkhandhaa or material clinging aggregates 2. vedanupadaana-kkhandhaa or feeling clinging aggregates 3. sannupadaana-kkhandhaa or perception clinging aggregates 4. sa`nkhaarupadaana-kkhandhaa or formation clinging aggregates 5. vi~n~naanupadaana-kkhandhaa or consciousness clinging aggregates These 5 clinging aggregates are like 5 clinging aggregates that have recently explained in the previous posts. There are ruupas like eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, form, sound, smell, taste, touch and they are the main source that attract other upadaana-kkhandhaas like sannupadaana-kkhandhaa, vedanupadaana- 0kkhandhaa, sa`nkhaarupadaana-kkhandhaa and vi~n~naanupadaana- kkhandhaa. When ruupa cannot be seen as ruupa as they are there have to arise other naamupadaana-kkhandhaas. As long as one does not have enough pannaa or wisdom ruupas will be attracting to other 4 upadaanakkhandas. To stop this is to be mindful with diligent and clear understanding on ruupa dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50488 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:22am Subject: Re: Nothing is not clear - Except the explanation itself. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Please keep in mind that the very questions that started our discussion (see message # 50201) is : Aren't you surprised at all why our Great Sage, the Blessed One, never mentioned the "arising of magga citta" when he was teaching his disciples samma-samadhi? Haven't you ever wondered why the Lord Buddha never mentioned the object of sammasamadhi in any of his discourses on right concentration? >Htoo:When arammana or object is not talked then we have to see >what these 47 cittas are. If some cittas do have the exact >components of mental factors then it can be said that the >power is almost the same. Pardon me, Htoo? The more you have tried to answer the second question the more confusing it has become. So please calmly read the questions above again and try to answer them directly. Best wishes, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is segment 1 or partition 1 that you have made. It is OK. You > can ask more or discuss on this matter or expand further. > (snipped) > Dear all, > > I cannot find anything that is not clear. > > Each and every citta has to take an arammana or object (aarammana paccayo). There is no citta that does not have any object or aarammana. > > Citta has to depend on vatthu or base, which is a ruupa. As the > current topic is about sammaa-samaadhi ruupa is not needed to discuss. > > Citta has to depend on vatthu (ruupa) and also has to depend on > object (arammana). > > When aarammana or object is not talked then citta has to be > investigated. > > There are 89 states of mind. There are 47 cittas that do have wisdom. > Only these 47 cittas may well be sammaa-samaadhi. Because all 47 > tihetuka cittas are sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. > > These 47 cittas are > > a) 4 naana-sampayutta mahaakusala cittas > b) 4 naana-sampayutta mahaavipaaka cittas > c) 4 naana-sampayutta mahaakiriya cittas > d)15 ruupaavacara cittas > e)12 aruupaavacara cittas > f) 8 lokuttaraa cittas > ------- > ++47 cittas > 50489 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:06am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? philofillet Hi Ken > I will not give up on you James - three more converts and eternal > bliss in heaven! (Just kidding.) Hands off! He's mine. Well, since you were kind enough to send those tapes to me, I guess we could split him for 1/2 a point each. Converts certainly are hard to come by - we don't offer as many upfront goodies as the competition. But of course that's what makes our goodies so good. Phil 50490 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 3? Indriya-samvara-sila nidive Hi Tep, > Tep: No, I don't think so. The error is caused by your bias toward > satipatthana (all followers of K. Sujin seem to have this bias). It > is not true that indriyasamvarasiila "will only be developed and > perfected through the development of satipatthana" -- it is the > other way around! Just go back to the Kundaliya Sutta one more time. > > Kundaliya Sutta SN 46.6: > ----------------------------------- > > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, > fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?" > > "The three kinds of good conduct, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and > cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness." > > "But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and > cultivated,fulfil the three kinds of good conduct?" > > "Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and > cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. [endquote] Interesting observation! I missed this excellect post this morning. Regards, Swee Boon 50491 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: No Substance is 'Out There'... !!! nidive Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > Outmost important to grasp, yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby > difficult & somewhat 'nasty' to comprehend. Keep trying, since this > central Anatta doctrine is the opener, releaser & freer of any mind. > Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of 'I' & 'World' is > both fatal, tragic & sardonically comic... Hehehe ;-) Yes, it was indeed sardonically comic. I will always remember that day in which I 'blacked out'. I thought I had fallen into a deep sleep, but I couldn't have fallen into a deep sleep given the short time span of less than a minute. Before, I was really hopelessly in love with this imagined idea of "I", "Cosmic I", and all sorts of "I" theories. That mass of delusion pierced through in an instant is hard to describe. I can only say there was relief, great relief. Regards, Swee Boon 50492 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:17am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? onco111 Hello Tep, Swee Boon hasn't written about Right View in this thread -- only some speculation on the relations between Right View and Right Concentration (and, of course, a claim [albeit, ever so slightly veiled] to be an ariyan). Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Swee (and Dan) - > > Without any question, anybody who knows what right view means must > say, " Swee Boon has the right understanding of right view". > > > > > > Dan :Can right view arise with wrong concentration? Or is Robert > right? > > > > Swee: Right View is a support and requisite condition for the arising > of Right Concentration. > > > > Right View by itself does not automatically bring about the EVENT of > > Right Concentration. > > > > A person without concentration does not mean that he has wrong > > concentration. A person without jhanas does not mean that he has > wrong jhanas. > > > > Right View of course conditions all the other factors to be Right. But > > Right View does not bring about the actual events/factors > themselves. > > > > So your argument that "wrong concentration can arise with right view" > > is not relevant to what we are discussing. > > > > Anyway, to satisfy your curiosity, wrong concentration cannot arise > > with Right View, given that there is Right Effort maintained in > > developing Right Concentration. > > > > Keep on thinking rightly and writing rightly, Swee. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ========== 50493 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: No Substance is 'Out There'... !!! onco111 Hi Swee Boon, One very important rule for beginning meditators is that if there is ever confusion about whether it was magga-phala or just nodding off to sleep, it is a safe bet that it was sleep -- even if the grasping mind wants soooo much to believe: "It couldn't have been sleep! it must have been enlightenment." And then, "Look how wise I am now." Lobha is a powerful deluder. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, > > > Outmost important to grasp, yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby > > difficult & somewhat 'nasty' to comprehend. Keep trying, since this > > central Anatta doctrine is the opener, releaser & freer of any mind. > > Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of 'I' & 'World' is > > both fatal, tragic & sardonically comic... Hehehe ;-) > > Yes, it was indeed sardonically comic. > > I will always remember that day in which I 'blacked out'. I thought I > had fallen into a deep sleep, but I couldn't have fallen into a deep > sleep given the short time span of less than a minute. > > Before, I was really hopelessly in love with this imagined idea of > "I", "Cosmic I", and all sorts of "I" theories. > > That mass of delusion pierced through in an instant is hard to > describe. > > I can only say there was relief, great relief. > > Regards, > Swee Boon 50494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] saññaa nilovg Hi Sarah, I get these points you mention. There is still a passage: The Great Discourse on Causation. Mahaanidaana Sutta, transl by B.B. Co., p. 99: Why is saññaa sressed here for rebirth-linking? There may be a reason that escapes me. Better leave it for the moment. I do not think it is suitable to ask Kh Sujin too many technical questions, she does not have the texts in India. Besides, we badly need the time to hear about awareness right now. Nina. op 21-09-2005 13:47 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Also, Nina, you asked us to raise the topic of sanna as a condition for > more attachment with KS and to elaborate on some of her comments: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/47645 > > I quoted the comments and mentioned your request. Her answer was to > understand reality better and better. Can we understand the characteristic > of sanna now? Even the aspect or function of marking? There can be > awareness of thinking now and we can begin to understand the conditions > for thinking, such as sanna. All the realities are performing their > functions while we’re talking about them. Without sati, they can’t be > known. It has to be the way of detachment. > > You may wish to ask for more detail on this or raise further points in > India. 50495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, ch 4, no 1. Fire. nilovg Hi Howard, op 21-09-2005 22:19 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >> Sujin: If the fire is only very slight, it cannot burn anything. ... As a person grows up, >> he reaches an age that the element of fire is just right... After that the element of fire becomes stronger, it burns more intensively and it is destructive, so that the body is no longer beautiful... > ======================= > Another possible explanation, I think, is that the characteristic of > impermanence applies not only to paramattha dhammas, but also to patterned > assemblies of interrelated paramattha dhammas (even though some folks may view > them as "mere pa~n~natti"). The Buddha in many suttas seems to have applied > the > tilakkhana conventional phenomena as well as to paramattha dhammas. He said > that whatever arises, ceases, and he included all the common conventional > phenomena of our world of concept. The fact of paramattha dhammas not > remaining has > consequences at the conventional level of experience, and is reflected in the > commonly observed alteration, decay, and demise of conventional objects such > as human bodies. -------- N: That is right. Could we observe decay of the body if there were not dissolution of ruupas at each moment? The Buddha would point to the impermanence in conventional language, and when someone was ready for it he would explain the impermanence of the present reality. Decay of the body that we all see is a great reminder to be aware at this moment of the dhamma that appears so that understanding can develop and realize the arising and falling away of realities. I found it helpful that the condition of heat was brought up. When I heard this in the Temple I realized that I had not thought of this before. I was surprised, although I had read texts about it. In the ³Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant¹s Footprint² (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 28) we read that Såriputta taught the monks about the four Great Elements. He would show the impermanence of the elements of earth (solidity) water, fire and wind as they manifest themselves in nature, outside, and then point to the ruupas of this shortlived body. The element of heat is one of the rupas of the body that arises and falls away from birth to death. I quote from my : The element of heat is one of the four factors which produce rúpas of the body. Kamma produces rúpa from the first moment of life and after that temperature also starts to produce rúpas of the body. Rúpas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a rock are produced solely by temperature. We read in the sutta that Såriputta explained to the monks about the internal element of heat: ... Whatever is heat, warmth, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as by whatever one is vitalized, by whatever one is consumed, by whatever one is burnt up, and by whatever one has munched, drunk, eaten and tasted that is properly transmuted (in digestion), or whatever other thing is heat, warmth, is internal.... The ³Visuddhimagga² (XI, 36) which gives an explanation of the words of this sutta states that the element of heat plays its part in the process of ageing: ³... whereby this body grows old, reaches the decline of the faculties, loss of strength, wrinkles, greyness, and so on.² As to the expression ³burnt up², it explains that when one is excited the internal element of heat causes the body to burn. The element of heat also has a function in the digestion of food, it ³cooks² what is eaten and drunk. We may notice changes in body-temperature because of different conditions, for instance through the digestion of our food, or when we are excited, angry or afraid. So long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and falls away all the time. When heat presents itself and there is awareness of it it can be known as only a rúpa element, not ³my body-heat². When we are absorbed in excitement, anger or fear we forget that there are in reality only different kinds of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away. The element of heat can be internal or external. Såriputta explained that the liability to change of the external heat element and its impermanence can be seen when it becomes agitated and burns up villages, towns, districts and regions, and is then extinguished through lack of fuel. Both the internal and the external element of heat are impermanent and not self.> This sutta explains conditions for decay of the body. We may repeate the words that dhammas are conditioned, but it is helpful to go more deeply into the different conditions, and how they operate. This makes it clearer that dhammas are beyond control. They do not belong to us. Nina. 50496 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:41am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 4, no. 2. nilovg Dear friends, < Question: Does paññå that realizes the arising and falling away of dhammas know this in accordance with their duration? A rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta [2] , what does paññå know about this? Sujin: A rúpa that has its own distinct nature, a sabhåva rúpa [3] , lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta that succeed one another, and then that rúpa falls away. Question: Does the paññå that sees the arising and falling away of rúpa realizes this during seventeen moments of citta? How can it realize this? Sujin: Are we at this moment seeing and hearing at the same time? But Sawong: No, not at the same time. Sujin: In between the time we see and hear there are rúpas that have arisen and fallen away. The citta that sees and the citta that hears are more than seventeen moments of citta apart from each other. The development of paññå is not a matter of counting moments of citta. The first stage of paññå that should be developed is paññå that clearly distinguishes the difference between nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma. It should know that rúpa dhamma does not know anything at all, and that nåma dhamma is completely different from rúpa, not blended into it or mixed up with it in any way. One of the Thais asked whether one can say that the element of fire is the most important element, more important than the other elements. Would Khun But Sawong answer this question? But Sawong: Just now Mother Sujin spoke about the element of fire or heat that is a condition for the ageing of rúpa to be slow or rapid. The element of fire conditions the rúpas of the body of humans and of heavenly beings, and these bodies are different. The four great elements of earth (solidity), water (cohesion), fire (temperature or heat) and wind (motion or pressure) condition one another [4]. The element of fire is dependant on the other three great elements that are the proximate cause for its arising, it could not arise without them. But the slow or rapid ageing of rúpa is specifically conditioned by the element of fire. The element of fire that originates from kamma [5] performs also the function of the digestion of food. Thus, the element of fire performs functions regarding rúpas of the body, it causes the nutritive essence in food to support the body. It causes this body to age and it performs the function of the digestion of food. Can we say that its importance is in accordance with its functions? Sujin: Yes, one can. -------- Footnotes: 2 . When the duration of rúpa is compared to the duration of citta, rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. Thus, a rúpa that is a sense object can be experienced by the different cittas arising in a sense-door process. 3. Some rúpas are sabhava rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct characteristic or nature. Other rúpas are asabhava rúpas, rúpas that do not have their own distinct nature, such as special qualities of rúpas. 4. The four great Elements always arise together with the other rúpas in each group or kalapa. 5. There are four factors that produce rúpa: kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. **** Nina. 50497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking that we should ( was Re: More on metta; use of words. nilovg Hi Phil, When I read to Lodewijk about the factors of enlightenment the other day, he felt so hopeless, he said that he has so much ignorance and did not feel that he acquired much understanding. I asked him how many past lives he accumulated ignorance, and said that we cannot expect paññaa to grow quickly. I said that he should kneel down and thank the Buddha for the understanding, even though it is slight, he has acquired. Where would he be without the Buddha? I also said that you always leave for a while what you do not understand yet. We have to accept it that we cannot understand everything. Perhaps you can add something? Nina. op 21-09-2005 21:28 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > One line you use in the feelings chapter in Cetasikas is something > like "studying Abhidhamma we come to understand how much we *don't* > know." > That is so important. Some people take that as pessismism or > hopelessness. I take it as an encouraging and necessary first step, one > that prevents plunging down an imitation of the right path with wrong > understanding hidden and mistaken confidence. 50498 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan (and Swee) - What you see and what Swee sees are many miles apart. > Dan D. : > Swee Boon hasn't written about Right View in this thread -- only some > speculation on the relations between Right View and Right > Concentration (and, of course, a claim [albeit, ever so slightly > veiled] to be an ariyan). > Tep: I am glad to have an opportunity to discuss Right view with you. What has Swee missed on Right view? How do you understand Right view? Regards, Tep ----------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Swee (and Dan) - > > > > Without any question, anybody who knows what right view means must say, " Swee Boon has the right understanding of right view". > > (snipped) > > Keep on thinking rightly and writing rightly, Swee. > > 50499 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 0:40pm Subject: Re: Cooling down a bit often helps ... buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita and Colette - It is human nature to overlook (or fail to see) a real message inside a hot and attacking post. But after filtering out the harsh language, one may see a few challenging questions that are worth answering. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > Dear friend colette: > > Just a minor friendly note: > Be careful with calling the views of others 'Blasphemy'... > Be careful with calling the Bhikkhu Sangha 'Blasphemists'... > Be careful with calling the Buddha Dhamma 'Perversions'... > > One often years later down the path - when cooled down - > seriously regrets such 'Bombastic Armsvinging Attacks...' > when recognizing, that they have blocked one's progress, > even if done in the best intention of defending the: > "Real - I see and know much, much better!!!" Dhamma... > It is better to wait with clearing the path, until one can > actually see the COMPLETE path, clearly & directly... > 50500 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,194 buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry (Nina, and Htoo) - The words 'far and near' in Vism XIV, 194 describe an aspect of the materiality aggregate. 'Any materiality(ruupa) whatever, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: all that together in the mass and in the gross is called the materiality aggregate.' Vism XIV, 185. The same definition of rupa-khandha is seen in several suttas, one of which is the Anattalakkhana Sutta, as follows: "Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.' [translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli] Questions -------------- Why didn't the Blessed One define the materiality aggreagte to include the derived materiality, upaadaa ruupa (see Vism XIV, 36), including the heart basis? In fact, in the Tipitaka that I have studied, I found no mentioning of the derived materiality as part of the ruupa aggregate. Is such derived materiality not useful in insight meditation? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 194. (x)-(xi) 'Far and near': this is also as already described > (par.73). Besides, relative farness and nearness should be understood > here according to location. 50501 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,194 / a little clarification .. buddhistmedi... Hi Larry (Nina and Htoo) - I want to give a little clarification to the previous message # 50500. Please read the following paragraph : > The same definition of rupa-khandha is seen in several suttas, one of > which is the Anattalakkhana Sutta, as follows: > > "Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.' [translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli] > The word "consciousness" above should be replaced by "materiality", otherwise it might have caused a confusion. Thank you. Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry (Nina, and Htoo) - > > The words 'far and near' in Vism XIV, 194 describe an aspect of the > materiality aggregate. > > 'Any materiality(ruupa) whatever, whether past, future or present, > internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: all > that together in the mass and in the gross is called the materiality > aggregate.' Vism XIV, 185. > > The same definition of rupa-khandha is seen in several suttas, one of > which is the Anattalakkhana Sutta, as follows: > > "Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently > arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether > inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding > how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my > self.' [translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli] > > Questions > -------------- > > Why didn't the Blessed One define the materiality aggreagte to include > the derived materiality, upaadaa ruupa (see Vism XIV, 36), including > the heart basis? In fact, in the Tipitaka that I have studied, I found no > mentioning of the derived materiality as part of the ruupa aggregate. Is > such derived materiality not useful in insight meditation? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > > > 194. (x)-(xi) 'Far and near': this is also as already described > > (par.73). Besides, relative farness and nearness should be > understood > > here according to location. 50502 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooling down a bit often helps ... mlnease Dear Sir, Are you claiming to have done so? mn > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita > wrote: >> Dear friend colette: >> >> Just a minor friendly note: >> Be careful with calling the views of others 'Blasphemy'... >> Be careful with calling the Bhikkhu Sangha 'Blasphemists'... >> Be careful with calling the Buddha Dhamma 'Perversions'... >> >> One often years later down the path - when cooled down - >> seriously regrets such 'Bombastic Armsvinging Attacks...' >> when recognizing, that they have blocked one's progress, >> even if done in the best intention of defending the: >> "Real - I see and know much, much better!!!" Dhamma... >> It is better to wait with clearing the path, until one can >> actually see the COMPLETE path, clearly & directly... 50503 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooling down a bit often helps ... mlnease p.s. ...Again? 50504 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, ch 4, no 1. Fire. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/05 1:42:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > >Another possible explanation, I think, is that the characteristic of > >impermanence applies not only to paramattha dhammas, but also to patterned > >assemblies of interrelated paramattha dhammas (even though some folks may > view > >them as "mere pa~n~natti"). The Buddha in many suttas seems to have applied > >the > >tilakkhana conventional phenomena as well as to paramattha dhammas. He said > >that whatever arises, ceases, and he included all the common conventional > >phenomena of our world of concept. The fact of paramattha dhammas not > >remaining has > >consequences at the conventional level of experience, and is reflected in > the > >commonly observed alteration, decay, and demise of conventional objects > such > >as human bodies. > -------- > N: That is right. Could we observe decay of the body if there were not > dissolution of ruupas at each moment? > The Buddha would point to the impermanence in conventional language, and > when someone was ready for it he would explain the impermanence of the > present reality. Decay of the body that we all see is a great reminder to be > aware at this moment of the dhamma that appears so that understanding can > develop and realize the arising and falling away of realities. > ====================== Yes, I agree with what you say here. The triune nature of dhammas together with the relations holding among dhammas explains the behavior of conventional phenomena, including their arising,alteration, decline, and cessation. Observing the tilakkhana in conventional objects provides only a gross level of understanding, but it is the direct observing of the tilakkhana at the level of paramattha dhammas that is required for liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50505 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:24pm Subject: More on metta ( was Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: I think we were lovers in a past life. Could you do a psychic run on that? James: Hehehe...well, I don't know for sure, but probably not. I went ahead and did a psychic reading on your question, which takes much longer when it has to do with myself, and I guess I can tell you the results. Not sure if this is appropriate for DSG but we keep breaking the rules anyway so might as well continue (Moderators, if I am getting out of hand just let me know off-list): From what I read, in the past I was a king or ruler of some sort who had a great deal of power, and you were one of my deputes. Unfortunately, I was not very wise in this past life and was addicted to power for power's sake. As a consequence, I did some good things but I also hurt a great number of people and caused you, as one of my deputes, to hurt people on my behalf. At the time, you had a love/hate type of relationship with me- loved me as a ruler and person but hated the evil things I did. Overall, Phil, you have had several lifetimes where you have been in service to someone higher than yourself, and have had good and bad results. You keep looking for a strong leader to guide you in your life, after life, after life. I, on the other hand, have received very negative kamma from what I did in the past. I am paying for it in this lifetime. I avoid becoming a leader of any sort and distrust all authority figures (as a result of the kammic guilt) and I am destined to encounter person after person who dominates me in some way and puts me into an uncomfortable position of powerlessness, as I did to others in the past. Phil: Today I read much more rough comments and all I felt was friendliness towards you. There were conditions for metta to arise, and dosa (there would have been moments of that too - there are so many moments rising and falling away faster than we can no) was not allowed to take root in a way that would have led to a bitchy response. James: Good, stay with that response! ;-)) Phil, what would you suggest to someone who was bipolar or schizophrenia? That they should let the conditions that they have for these mental illnessnes run their course, or should they attempt therapy and counseling to combat the disfunctional thoughts? Now, consider the fact that we all have, in essence, a mental disorder (the three poisons). Should we let the mental disorder run it's natural course or should we combat it and, hopefully, eventually cure it? Phil: (Yes, right effort involves giving rise to wholesome states not yet arisen, that is true. Very subtle point. It involves catching them at the moment they are arising due to conditions - kusala virya doesn't miss the opportunity when there is arising - that's the way I understand it at that point.) James: I do not believe that this is the way the Buddha taught this process. Do you have any textual support? Lovingkindness, James 50506 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: Bhikkhu Samahita: Perceiving Transience ... !!! How Does It Happen? ksheri3 Hi Tep, Thanks so much for your appreciation, one may call it Bravado or on the other hand one may say that I'm following the script from A Fist Full of Dollars where Clint rides into town and people start making fun of his horse where Clint says "I don't like people makin' fun of my horse" and then procedes to dispatch those humorless losers. I look forward to the brilliance that stirs these realizations up in myself, coming from others. thanx, toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Colette (and Ven. Samahita) - > > > Samahita Bhikkhu: > > > C: Induce direct knowledge of the ego & ownerlessness of all. > > > > colette: IMPOSSIBLE, although I reserve the right to be wrong. There > > is no "beaten path" given in the above definition, a step by step > > direction: see your standard "Popular Mechanics" and to fulfill the > > definition of "Man" one must religiously read and accept as gospel, > > the procedure of the Popular Mechanic. > > I am really impressed by this post of yours; it is a masterpiece. Several > issues that have been in the center of DSG discussions are neatly > gathered in your post. I think Sarah, Phil and KenH (among other > Paramattha dhamma specialists) are happy by your pizazz. > > I eagerly look forward to hearing Bhkkhu Samahita's reply. <...> 50507 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:53am Subject: Re: Cooling down a bit often helps ... ksheri3 Bhikku samahita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > Dear friend colette: > > Just a minor friendly note: > Be careful with calling the views of others 'Blasphemy'... > Be careful with calling the Bhikkhu Sangha 'Blasphemists'... > Be careful with calling the Buddha Dhamma 'Perversions'... colette: MOST CERTAINLY, but: a) Since I state my "PERCEPTION" of your words, FROM MY POINT-OF- VIEW, AT THE SINGLE MOMENT I READ THEM then my term "blasphemy" which truely was directed at you & your views must be an ILLUSION, therefore EMPTY, SUNYA, of meaning. You sound as though you've found a run for your money here? b) Where is it written that I point of fact stated the Bhiddhu Sangha is of "blasphemists"? <...> c) there is no reality to the innuendo you put forth that I call the Buddha dharma to be "perversion" however, if you are the sole arbitor and the only person to possess the dharma of the Buddha as given by the Buddha then you will not crumble if continually shown to lack substance since the Buddha's dharma does not crumble. <....> toodles, colette 50508 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Thinking that we should ( was Re: More on metta; use of words. philofillet Hi Nina > When I read to Lodewijk about the factors of enlightenment the other day, he > felt so hopeless, he said that he has so much ignorance and did not feel > that he acquired much understanding. > I asked him how many past lives he accumulated ignorance, and said that we > cannot expect paññaa to grow quickly. I said that he should kneel down and > thank the Buddha for the understanding, even though it is slight, he has > acquired. Where would he be without the Buddha? > I also said that you always leave for a while what you do not understand > yet. We have to accept it that we cannot understand everything. > Perhaps you can add something? Lodewijk has the good fortune to be able to listen to you read Dhamma and discuss Dhamma everyday, so there is little that I could add. We all know the famous words of the venerable who said "a few moments of sati in life? Wealthy man!" I have come to believe that when at first I thought it was horribly underestimating our potential. But now I am beginnning to understand how deep and pervasive the unwholesome roots are. Just a few moments of detachment, of penetrating paramattha to a certain modest degree - how they can free us from anxiety, from concern about how far we can progress. We can discuss that here, as I did with James - do we want to be sotapanna and so on. But at moments when there is right understanding of paramattha dhammas, there is no interest in being sotapanna. That story falls away - and perhaps that is the beginning of a hint of a slight understanding of what it means to be sotapanna. We are taking real steps toward liberation, not swept away by lobha and moha into delusions of dramatic progress. I often think of the tortoise and the hare, though it's not a race. Oh, I am just babbling Nina. I am confident that Lodewijk has right understanding. His modesty is a good indication of it. And I hear such confidence in his voice when he read the Perfections. I heard you say that when he goes to India, the citta is often affected by the tiredness of the body. I guess his body is growing old and tired, so his citta will surely be effected by that at times - but the accumulated understanding is still there. It will seem to be covered up or distorted often when citta is impacted by the wear and tear of a body growing old, I guess. But the understanding has been accumulated and will serve him well when cittas rooted in right understanding are really needed. I would feel less worry if I could say the same for Naomi, or my father who is seeing his beloved wife's mind go, or my mother who must feel so much fear without the wisdom to alleviate it. (She has always refused to talk about old age and death so I assume she has also avoided thinking about.) We are so fortunate to have refuge in the Dhamma. Phil 50509 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,194 lbidd2 Tep: "Why didn't the Blessed One define the materiality aggregate to include the derived materiality, upaadaa ruupa (see Vism XIV, 36), including the heart basis? In fact, in the Tipitaka that I have studied, I found no mentioning of the derived materiality as part of the ruupa aggregate. Is such derived materiality not useful in insight meditation?" Hi Tep, Derived materiality is all the materiality other than the four great elements; that is, all the materiality derived from the four great elements. The ayatanas (sense bases and objects) are all derived materiality except for objects of body consciousness, which are three of the four great elements, earth, fire and air. Water element is a subtle rupa and so only cognizable by the mind door because water element is cohesion. You might ask, what about mindfulness of subtle rupa? Subtle rupa is any rupa or aspect of rupa that isn't involved with sensory impingement. These include: water element, feminity, masculinity, heart base, life faculty, nutriment, space element, bodily intimation, vocal intimation, lightness, malleability, wieldiness, production, continuity, decay, and impermanence. These are all experienced through the mind door only and are included in the "mindfulness of dhamma" section of the satipatthana sutta under the five aggregates of clinging category. The Buddha didn't list them because he was saving that for the abhidhamma pitaka. We can observe these rupas as objects of clinging. By that I mean, insofar as we cling to food, for example, we can see that food is not ultimately worth clinging to. The actual ultimate reality of nutriment probably isn't something the ordinary person clings to. This line of inquiry tends to devolve into a quagmire of concept and reality obscurity which may not be profitable to pursue. Larry 50510 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: Cooling down a bit often helps .../ buddhistmedi... Hi, Mike - Your message to Ven. Samahita might be interpreted by some as a "rude questioning". >>Bhikkhu Samahita: >> "Real - I see and know much, much better!!!" Dhamma... >> It is better to wait with clearing the path, until one can >> actually see the COMPLETE path, clearly & directly... >Mike : Are you claiming to have done so? Tep : You have got a point, Mike. I think it is important to make it clear as to which of the following cases we are talking about in our post: a) An experience of another person who is (or was) an ariyan. b) Our own experience of a truth (sacca). c) Our interpretation of the Buddha's Dhamma. d) A theoretical discussion (not based on real experience) of the Abhidhamma. e) A vague, beating around-the-bush kind of claim that 'this only must be true and that is false', etc. with no support from the Tipitaka or any credible and reputable sources. I think if we can make it clear, then nobody will ask us the kind of question you have asked. So I don't think your question was rude. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sir, > > Are you claiming to have done so? > > mn > 50511 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: Wisdom is not accumulated? was Cambodian Lectures by Kh. Sujin. buddhatrue Hi Robert K., James: Thank you for this very nice answer. So, it does seem that we are in agreement as to the nature of accumulations. I like your example of smoking, it is very apropos, but I question the other example you give: Robert K: "When I get angry and say something disagreeable I make kamma that will bring a result in the future. But I also strengthen (accumulate) dosa (aversion). James: I don't think it is dosa which accumulates in this situation, it is the tendency (or "habit") to use harsh speech. Robert K: Would like details about these conditions and how kamma and accumlations relate? James: That would be fine as long as you use minimal Pali or define the Pali you use. I don't know much Pali. I would also like for you to explain further how wisdom could accumulate as a "habit". Wisdom, from my viewpoint, isn't a habit. I want us to stay on track with the original topic. Metta, James 50512 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:24pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhatrue Hi Htoo (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Anyone who know Buddhavamsa know Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta. > Both attained all ruupa jhaana. Basing on this both attained 1st and > 2nd aruupa jhaana. > > But Aalaara Kalama further attained just 3rd aruupa jhaana while > Udaka Raamaputta further attained 3rd and 4th aruupa jhaana. > > If you do not believe ask any Thera who have learnt all tipitaka in > detail. > > When they both had attained all 4 ruupa jhaana, will you say they > attained sammaa-samaadhi? I guess I will enter this jhana debate again. Htoo, to write "If you do not believe ask any Thera who have learnt all tipitaka in detail" is not a very convincing argument. You should quote the appropriate material if you want to support that Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta achieved all four rupa jhana. Of course I know why you have resorted to this means of support- there isn't any textual support because Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta did not attain all four rupa jhana! :-) However, I have textual support to back up my position, from DN 10 10, Subha Sutta "Morality, Concentration, Wisdom": "'Reverend Ananda, what is the division of Ariyan concentration which the Reverend Gotama praised?' 'And how is a monk guardian of the sense-doors? He guards the sense- doors and attains the four jhanas (DN 2, verses 64-82). This comes to him through concentration. That is the division of Ariyan concentration which the Lord praised...But something more remains to be done.' 'It is wonderful, Reverend Ananda, it is marvellous! This division of Ariyan concentration is perfectly fulfilled, not left incomplete. AND I DO NOT SEE THIS DIVISION OF ARIYAN CONCENTRATION FULFILLED THUS ANYWHERE AMONG THE ASCETICS AND BRAHMINS OF OTHER SCHOOLS. (Emphasis mine). And if any of them were to have found this perfection in themselves, they would have been so delighted that they would have said: "We've done enough! The goal of our asceticism has been reached! There's nothing more to be done!" And yet Reverend Ananda declares that there is more to be done!" James: I think that this states without a doubt that Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta did not attain the four rupa jhanas as taught by the Buddha. No one else in India at the time of the Buddha practiced the four jhanas except for the Buddha and his disciples. Now, if either you or Tep would like textual support from the Buddha explaining specifically how it is possible to achieve the arupa jhanas without achieving the rupa jhanas first, as Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta must have done, let me know and I will post again (as it is extraneous to this subject). Metta, James 50513 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 0:49am Subject: An overdose for Htoo 4? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo (&Tep), (continuing with the earlier DTs and my comments. I may have to pick up your and Tep’s kind feedback after India....we’ll see. Btw, Tep, thx for reading these cryptic comments too and for clarification, it’s never occurred to me to try and persuade you anyone here of anything. I just like to share my own reflections which may or may not be of any value to anyone:)). The value of a list discussion is that one person may benefit and another person may rightly or wrongly disagree with the points. Any responses are valuable, I find. (Btw, Htoo, I’ll add DT numbers as well this time. When you see just a DSG post number , as in the earlier posts, you can easily key it in the search box on the DSG homepage to quickly access the original message of yours referred to.) 1 #50224, DT550, also DT551, DT553 You say ‘sannaa arises at ruupa (visual object) and then later, sannaa arises at sadda, gandha .....at dhamma’. I think you mean sannnaa experiences visual object etc, arising with the citta which experiences the same object. This citta (and cetasikas) arise at eye-base etc . 2 #50225, DT543 letter to Tep & Swee Boon You rightly say all ruupa jhaana objects are pannatti. In terms of specification, there is lots of detail given in Abhidammattha Sangaha for those interested – just as you (Htoo) explain in detail. In BB’s CMA, read ch 1X ‘Compendium of Meditation Subjects (Kamma.t.thaanasangahavibhaaga)’. This follows the ‘Analysis of Concepts’ in ch V111, ‘Compendium of Conditionality’. Of course, not all details are given in any one sutta (or all the suttas). 3#50239 DT552 A very good post on the various meanings of sankhara, but I got lost in the following paragraph which doesn’t sound like you!! “But just as kaaya stands for both body and action [S: and sometimes ruupa or cetasikas], so do the concrete mental syntheses called sankhaara tend to take on the implication of synergies, of purposive intellection, connotated by the term abhisankhara, where sankhara area a purposive, aspiring state of mind to induce a specific rebirth; is catalogued as the three classes of abhisankhara.....” S: Perhaps you could instead say something like: ‘In Dependent Origination, sankhaara refers to abhisankhara or cetana which acted as kamma capable of bringing a result in the way of rebirth (patisandhi). There are 3 kinds of abhisankhara.....etc 4#50342 Different Approaches to Anatta? You write: “Truly overdosed. Whenever I meet Dhamma-teachers I ask about dhammas that are hold by DSGs, the teachers all smile. These teachers are both learning and teaching and stay in seclusion.” S: As I said, I’d like to hear from these smiling teachers in seclusion and would be grateful for their feedback. But when I referred to them a couple of days ago, you said they are none other than those of us already posting, ie DSGers:-// Another Phil paradox:)). (Btw, I think we’re all fellow students of Dhamma here, basing what we say on talks we’ve listened to in explanation, written details or the words of the Buddha in the texts.) Metta, Sarah ======== 50514 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:11am Subject: An overdose for Htoo 5? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, #50345 ‘Different Approaches to Anatta?’ You write “Even if many wake them up they will not rise from immobility because they are WAITING for accumulation of wisdom.” S::-)) I’m WAITING for your response to Sukin’s last long and detailed letter to you:). I’m WAITING for my next swim in the sea and walk on the sand..... All such WAITING is just lobha....we wait and hope and look forward to many empty dreams in a day. If there is any such WAITING for wisdom, it would be just another empty, useless expectation or hope. I can honestly say that I’m not aware of often having this object of lobha, but like any lobha, if and when it arises, it can just be known for what it is with detachment. It’s very, very ordinary. Of course, if there is any idea that such WAITING or LOBHA will bring about wisdom, then that would be a kind of wrong view, just like if there’s any idea that NOT WAITING, but taking ACTION will bring about wisdom is also a kind of wrong view, wouldn’t you say? #50355 DT543 (letter to Tep) Very clear and excellent. A good summary of the chapters I referred to in Ab.Sangaha. #50360 ‘Overdose’ You say “the danger is that ‘being not own-knowledge or own-experience or direct-knowledge’ means that it is copied knowledge.” As Dan suggested, only panna can tell. When I read your excellent DTs, there is no way that I can know whether there is any panna arising or not when you repeat the Abhidhamma details. When we discuss the teachings in detail, then we begin to get a little idea – but even then, such ideas are only based on our very limited own knowledge. You write that ‘the level of overdose will decrease when doses are no more taken while own-copies or own-experience can to be developed.’ Good point! Any understanding that is not our own is totally useless. In #50361 ‘Overdose’, you continue with the same theme and give the examples of two extremes- throwing away the books for a period for meditation and overdosing on Abhidhamma as another. You ask what DSGs think. I think the only way is to understand the present dhamma right now as we read and discuss. What appears? What is the reality now? Are we lost in stories about extremes or is there any awareness of seeing, of visible object, of sound, of thinking, of confusion, of attachment? No one can know another’s present awareness or wisdom. No need to think about what action to take or not take. The only path is the development of satipatthana, which as you agree, can only be the development of the 8fold path with paramattha dhammas as objects of wisdom and supporting factors. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for any feedback -- I'll pick up threads with you later as I said. The next overdose in November!! ======== 50515 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:21am Subject: An overdose for Htoo 6? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, #50363 Sammaa-samaadhi You rightly say that ‘magga cittas arise with the power of jhaana’. I’d probably say ‘with an equivalent power to that of jhaana’. This is because of the object, nibbana. You also rightly say that ‘magga cittas are never jhaana citttas even though all magga cittas and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas’. Would you check this point with your teachers? I understand that even though nibbana is called appanaa-arammana, it is not experienced with appanaa samaadhi or cittas, but with cittas which are equivalent in strength to appanaa samaadhi. A subtle distinction, I believe. Perhaps Steve or others have comments on this point or textual references which I haven’t checked. I agree with all your other points here. Oh, that’s it for this overdose:). Metta, Sarah ======== 50516 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:26am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 279 Conceit -maana (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] The three ways of comparing oneself with others may occur in someone who is actually superior, in someone who is actually equal and in someone who is actually inferior. Under this aspect there are nine kinds of conceit(1). There is no need for comparing, no matter whether we are in fact superior, equal or inferior. We accumulate more akusala whenever we make ourselves important in comparing ourselves with others, no matter under what aspect. Even when we do not compare ourselves with someone else we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. Conceit always goes together with attachment, with clinging. It can arise with the four types of lobha-múla-citta which are not accompanied by wrong view. Conceit and wrong view are different realities which do not arise at the same time. When one takes a reality for permanent or for self there is wrong view and there cannot be at the same time conceit, which is pride or self-assertion. This does not mean that there is conceit every time lobha-múla-citta without wrong view arises. Lobha-múla-citta without wrong view may sometimes be accompanied by conceit, sometimes not. *** 1) Book of Analysis §962 and Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part II, Summary, Chapter II, 372. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50517 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo (and Tep), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear Tep, > > > > Anyone who know Buddhavamsa know Aalaara Kalama and Udaka > Raamaputta. > > Both attained all ruupa jhaana. Basing on this both attained 1st > and > > 2nd aruupa jhaana. > > > > But Aalaara Kalama further attained just 3rd aruupa jhaana while > > Udaka Raamaputta further attained 3rd and 4th aruupa jhaana. > > > > If you do not believe ask any Thera who have learnt all tipitaka > in > > detail. > > > > When they both had attained all 4 ruupa jhaana, will you say they > > attained sammaa-samaadhi? > > I guess I will enter this jhana debate again. > > Htoo, to write "If you do not believe ask any Thera who have learnt > all tipitaka in detail" is not a very convincing argument. You > should quote the appropriate material if you want to support that > Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta achieved all four rupa jhana. > Of course I know why you have resorted to this means of support- > there isn't any textual support because Aalaara Kalama and Udaka > Raamaputta did not attain all four rupa jhana! :-) > > However, I have textual support to back up my position, from DN 10 > 10, Subha Sutta "Morality, Concentration, Wisdom": > > "'Reverend Ananda, what is the division of Ariyan concentration > which the Reverend Gotama praised?' > > 'And how is a monk guardian of the sense-doors? He guards the sense- > doors and attains the four jhanas (DN 2, verses 64-82). This comes > to him through concentration. That is the division of Ariyan > concentration which the Lord praised...But something more remains to > be done.' > > 'It is wonderful, Reverend Ananda, it is marvellous! This division > of Ariyan concentration is perfectly fulfilled, not left incomplete. > AND I DO NOT SEE THIS DIVISION OF ARIYAN CONCENTRATION FULFILLED > THUS ANYWHERE AMONG THE ASCETICS AND BRAHMINS OF OTHER SCHOOLS. > (Emphasis mine). And if any of them were to have found this > perfection in themselves, they would have been so delighted that > they would have said: "We've done enough! The goal of our > asceticism has been reached! There's nothing more to be done!" And > yet Reverend Ananda declares that there is more to be done!" > > James: I think that this states without a doubt that Aalaara Kalama > and Udaka Raamaputta did not attain the four rupa jhanas as taught > by the Buddha. No one else in India at the time of the Buddha > practiced the four jhanas except for the Buddha and his disciples. > Now, if either you or Tep would like textual support from the Buddha > explaining specifically how it is possible to achieve the arupa > jhanas without achieving the rupa jhanas first, as Aalaara Kalama > and Udaka Raamaputta must have done, let me know and I will post > again (as it is extraneous to this subject). > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Tep and all, (Apology mods for not trancating the message). 1st aruupa jhaana is based on 4th ruupa jhaana. 2nd on 1st, 3rd on 2nd and 4th on 3rd. This is also true for 4th ruupa jhaana. 4th is based on 3rd. 3rd is on 2nd and 2nd is on 1st. Again 1st is on wisdom- loaded profitable consciousness in meditation. Even before the Buddha there were jhaana. After the Buddha there were jhaana. It is apparent that Bodhisatta went to Aalara and was taught. But Aalaara was not taught by The Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: There are Jaataka. In those Jaataka Bodhisatta had jhaana and abhinnaa. Were those jhaana sammaa-samaadhi of NEP. Bodhisatta only became Buddha after His 35th birthday in last life. 50518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking that we should ( was Re: More on metta; use of words. nilovg Hi Phil, op 23-09-2005 01:22 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > We all know the famous words of the venerable who said "a few > moments of sati in life? Wealthy man!" I have come to believe that > when at first I thought it was horribly underestimating our > potential. But now I am beginnning to understand how deep and > pervasive the unwholesome roots are. Just a few moments of > detachment, of penetrating paramattha to a certain modest degree - > how they can free us from anxiety, from concern about how far we can > progress. ------ N: This is very important, I told Lodewijk about this this morning. It is valuable to have a few moments of sati that is right, this can be accumulated and paññaa can grow. Right sati instead of many moments of what one erroneously takes for sati. ----------- Ph: ... But at moments when there is right > understanding of paramattha dhammas, there is no interest in being > sotapanna. That story falls away - and perhaps that is the beginning > of a hint of a slight understanding of what it means to be > sotapanna. ... --------- N: Thanks for your words of encouragement, Nina. 50519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, ch 4, no 1. Fire. nilovg Hi Howard, You expressed that very well, I apppreciate it. Before understanding can penetrate the tilakkhana of paramattha dhammas, it has to know exactly what these are: nama and rupa appearing now, one at a time. Seeing and visible object should not be taken together as a whole. Seeing experiences and visible object does not experience anything. Nina. op 22-09-2005 22:57 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ====================== > Observing the tilakkhana in conventional objects provides only a gross level > of > understanding, but it is the direct observing of the tilakkhana at the level > of paramattha dhammas that is required for liberation. 50520 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 194 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 194. Text Vis.: 194. (x)-(xi) 'Far and near': this is also as already described (par.73). Besides, relative farness and nearness should be understood here according to location. _____ N: Far and near can be used with regard to location, and that is in conventional sense. Moreover, it is also used with regard to the characteristics of realities.The Tiika states: with regard to characteristic (lakkha.nato). The Vis. Ch XIV, 73 states about gross and subtle ruupas: -------- N: Subtle ruupas such as cohesion, life faculty or nutrititive essence, are difficult to penetrate, they are far. --------- The Tiika (and the Dispeller of Delusion, p. 13) deals with the conventional sense of near and far as follows. The range of audibility of those who speak with their natural speech is twelve hands. Within that materiality is near and beyond that it is far. The Tiika states that of gross ruupas it can be said that they are near as to characteristic and to location, but that they may be far as to location only. Sound, for example, is a gross ruupa that is easy to penetrate compared with subtle ruupas, thus it is near as to characteristic. As to location, range of audibility, it may be near or far. Subtle ruupas are far as to characteristic but as to location they may be near or far. The Tiika then compares what is near and far as to location with different examples. Near and far can be said, for example, of being inside or outside a cell, the monastery, within or without the boundary, within or without a village, a country, a kingdom, the confines of the sea, the worldsphere. Conclusion: N: The gross ruupas that are the sense objects impinge on the senses all the time in daily life. The element of heat appears when it impinges on the bodysense or inside the body. It arises because of the appropriate conditions and then falls away. When we feel hot because of the climate, because of the digestion of food or because we are excited, we may be absorbed in our thoughts about it. When there are conditions for awareness paññaa can gradually penetrate the true nature of the sense objects which impinge on the relevant sense organs. We can learn that they are only elements that do not belong to us. In the foregoing sections the Visuddhimagga dealt with ruupakkhandha as past, future or present, gross or subtle, internal or external, inferior or superior, far or near. The aim of such detailed study is to see dhammas as they truly are. We read the Anattalakkha.na Sutta (Vinaya, Mahaavagga I, 6. 43-47): "Any kind of materiality whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.³ ****** Nina 50521 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: mindfulness of death nilovg Dear friends, I heard this morning on my MP3 the following: Nina. 50522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,194 nilovg Hi Tep, Larry answered this already. Some derived ruupas are implied in suttas: life faculty in Middle Length Sayings ( a dialogue with Dhammadinna), nutrition in the Sammaditthisutta, Space in the Elephants Footprint sutta and the Mahaaraahulovadasutta. For the development of insight, the ruupas that are gross are easier to penetrate, that is, compared with the subtle ruupas. As to the gross ruupas, three of the four great elements are gross. Water or cohesion is subtle. The other sense objects and the five sense organs are also gross, moreover, they are derived ruupas. But the four great elements always arise in each group of ruupas. From the above you can see that it is important to have understanding also of the derived ruupas that are gross. However, we cannot know what realities will appear to sati, it depends on conditions, not on our desire or planning. I am glad you quoted the anattalakkha.nasutta, you inspired me. Nina. op 22-09-2005 22:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Why didn't the Blessed One define the materiality aggreagte to include > the derived materiality, upaadaa ruupa (see Vism XIV, 36), including > the heart basis? In fact, in the Tipitaka that I have studied, I found no > mentioning of the derived materiality as part of the ruupa aggregate. Is > such derived materiality not useful in insight meditation? 50523 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: Nothing is not clear - Except the explanation itself. htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your post. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Dear Htoo - Please keep in mind that the very questions that started our discussion (see message # 50201) is : Aren't you surprised at all why our Great Sage, the Blessed One, never mentioned the "arising of magga citta" when he was teaching his disciples samma-samadhi? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, I am really not surprised. I am completely not surprised. Because The Buddha preached about 'majjhima pa.tipadaa' and when majjhima pa.tipaadaa was preached the focus was not object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Haven't you ever wondered why the Lord Buddha never mentioned the object of sammasamadhi in any of his discourses on right concentration? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because the direction is to understand and realize anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo:When arammana or object is not talked then we have to see >what these 47 cittas are. If some cittas do have the exact >components of mental factors then it can be said that the >power is almost the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon me, Htoo? The more you have tried to answer the second question the more confusing it has become. So please calmly read the questions above again and try to answer them directly. Best wishes, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, the more you are deluded the more you are away from obtaining your wanted answer. When I have been trying to my best, I CANNOT go beyond my capacity to explain anyone because I am not a Buddha, I am not an arahat. I am not an anagam, I am not a sakadaagam, I am not a sotapam. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50525 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:53am Subject: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? christine_fo... Hello all, I gained the impression that meditation and meditation retreats for lay people was a relatively modern phenomena - "beginning because of colonialism, when the Europeans, particularly the British, overran a number of ancient buddhist cultures. These cultures went into a sort of 'culture shock'. It was a very traumatic experience for them. Ruled by foreigners ... foreign culture, foreign language AND foreign missionaries of a foreign religion having free rein to do what they like. So the Buddhist populations were forced to look at themselves and their own culture and ask 'what do we do?' 'how do we respond to this?' And as part of that movement they looked at their own religious tradition, Buddhism, and asked 'What is this anyway? What makes this different from what the Europeans are doing?' And one thing they realised, of course, was Meditation .. which is unique to "our" culture, which the Europeans don't have, and don't seem to have any understanding of." (from a talk by Patrick Kearney). A Dhamma friend pointed out that this sutta, the Piti Sutta, seems to indicate that lay people are expressly advised by Buddha to meditate in seclusion of retreat. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-176.html Comments? metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50526 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooling down a bit often helps ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend colette who wrote: >the Buddha's Dhamma does not crumble! Indeed not... Only beings burn, since they are born with an axe in their own mouth !!! Quite purging is this for some, yet not all! Thus careful one should be as Buddha said: One never knows who is who ?!? Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 50527 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:19am Subject: Still in Bondage ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Belief in an Ego is the Strongest Bondage linking to Death! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said: Bhikkhus, the uninstructed ordinary person regards form as self, or self as possessing a form, or form as inside self, or self as inside a frame of form... This, bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed ordinary person, who is bound by bondage to form, who is bound by inner and outer bondage, who neither sees the near shore nor the far shore, who grows old in bondage, who dies in bondage, who goes from this world to the next other world in bondage... Such one regards feeling, perception, mental construction & consciousness as self or self as having feeling, perception, construction & consciousness, or feeling, perception, construction & consciousness as being inside a self, or a self as hidden inside feeling, perception, construction & consciousness!!! Such one, Bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed ordinary person who is bound by bondage, by clinging, by inner chains to feeling, perception, mental construction, and consciousness... Such one, Bhikkhus, bound by both inner & outer bondage, who neither sees this near shore nor the far shore, who grows old in bondage, who dies in bondage, will pass on in bondage to the next world still in bondage!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:117 III 165 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50528 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhatrue Hi Htoo (and Tep), Htoo: 1st aruupa jhaana is based on 4th ruupa jhaana. James: Who says so? It seems that you don't believe clear documentation is necessary in the dhamma but I believe it is. I am not convinced, and I don't believe anyone should be convinced, by "Htoo says so and so it must be true". (Sarah gives documentation with no discourse and you give discourse with no documentation- maybe we should get you two together! ;-)) Anyway, the Buddha does describe how it is possible to achieve the arupa jhanas without achieving the rupa jhanas first, at least to my reading. In DN 15, The Mahanidana Sutta, "The Great Discourse on Origination" the Buddha describes Eight Liberations (Note Htoo- this is what I mean by documentation) and he describes the method by which one achieves the fourth liberation, the first arupa jhana: "(4) By completely transcending all perception of matter, by the vanishing of the perception of sense-reactions, and by non-attention to the perception of variety, thinking "Space is infinite", one enters and abides in the Sphere of Infinite Space. That is the Fourth." Now, this can be read two ways: 1. By thinking "Space is infinite" and concentrating on that thought repeatedly, one transcends all perception of matter, etc. 2. One transcends all perception of matter, etc. first and then thinks "Space is infinite". As for me, I choose the first type of reading, but I could be mistaken I admit. This is not a clear-cut issue and we could probably debate it for eternity. Htoo: Even before the Buddha there were jhaana. After the Buddha there were jhaana. James: I already quoted DN10 to you which demonstrates that after the Buddha's parinibbana, the time of that sutta, there was no rupa jhana in India. The son of a Brahmin, quite familiar with all the sects, ascetics, and Brahmins in India stated that there was no school or ascetic which practied the four jhanas. Htoo, are you going to reply specifically to this documentation or are you going to ignore it? Htoo: There are Jaataka. In those Jaataka Bodhisatta had jhaana and abhinnaa. James: Well, this is partial documentation, good job! :-) However, it would be nice if you gave some specific examples. Anyway, this doesn't matter, it is quite possible that the Bodhisatta achieved some jhanas before enlightenment, we are addressing the four rupa jhaanas which are the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Any isolated jhanas that the Bodhisatta achieved prior are of no consequence. Why is this so important? Because members in this group are arguing that since the jhanas aren't unique to the Buddha, they don't have to be practiced. One can just depend on the concentration that arises with each citta. That is a perversion of the Buddha's teaching: The four rupa jhaans are unique to the Buddha and they are a significant and important part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 50529 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:24am Subject: Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? buddhatrue Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > A Dhamma friend pointed out that this sutta, the Piti Sutta, seems > to indicate that lay people are expressly advised by Buddha to > meditate in seclusion of retreat. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-176.html > > Comments? Yes! Yes! Yes! I often refer to this sutta. Who is the dhamma friend? Metta, James 50530 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:23am Subject: So know you know kondanna! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear nidive Swee Boon wisely wrote: >That mass of delusion pierced through in an instant is >hard to describe. Can only say there was great relief. Well, Well, Well, & Welcome ;-) From now on your are independent regarding the Dhamma, you can awaken yourself by your own manhood & effort, without even a single Teacher, yet such may speed it up!!! Max 7 rounds: A truly rare & unique path, state & fruit ... All that emerges also ceases ... : - ] 50531 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon, -------------------------------------- SB: >Right View of course comes first. But we shouldn't stop at Right View. Otherwise, there is no progress. --------------------------------------- When there is right view, progress cannot be stopped. All of the other Path factors follow just as day follows from dawn (see the quote Robert gave). A similar thing happens with ignorance (moha) and the absence of ignorance. When kamma is accompanied by moha the citta can only be akusala. And when kamma is unaccompanied by moha the citta can only be kusala. When kamma is not only unaccompanied by moha but also accompanied by amoha (of the Middle Way), the citta is not only kusala it is also vipassana - it can't be anything else. That might not be a satisfactory explanation, but when you think about it, it does make sense. Right View involves knowing all dhammas - kusala, akusala and kiriya. That means the benefits of kusala and the dangers of akusala are fully understood. It also means the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned dhammas is fully understood. With that understanding there can only be progress - there could not possibly be anything else. If it ever appeared that there was Right Understanding without progress then it can't have been the genuine thing. It could only have been some form of theorising accompanied by moha (or at least, unaccompanied by amoha). Ken H 50532 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: an introduction and a question dacostacharles Hi Hal, I have not heard of Peter Jackson's book on Buddhadasa, so I will look for it. You stated: "The Buddhist notion of "re-birth consciousness" is not based on Hindu concepts since, it is also a key concept in the death proximate cognitive process (following "death consciousness") as listed in chapter 5 of the Abhidhammattha Sangha known as "re-birth linking consciousness". This Buddhist notion does not imply any substance, soul or individual entity." If you talk to Buddhist around India (even the neighboring islands), you will find most believe in re-incarnation. Learned followers would argue that the Abidharma gives the details of the Buddhist view on this subject, as well as information useful for converting Hindus. The main difference is the view of ownership: as a Buddhist, you do not own (nor is it your essence) that which gives rise to the {one's} next incarnation (re-birth linking consciousness); as a Hindu, you do own (or it is just your essence) that which gives rise to the one's next incarnation (the karma attached to your soul or essence). It appears that Buddhism has taken another Hindu concept and argues that it has a better explanation. From what I remember, Buddhadasa was dismissing the idea of re-incarnation all together, and he claimed the notion of re-birth linking consciousness was never mention by the Buddha. It is interesting though, it does seem to me that at some point (may be early in the Buddha ministry) he did believe in re-incarnation (past lives). But then I could imagine Buddhadasa arguing that this is only a relative truth (re-incarnation/past lives). I have t+ go¨ ' Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hal Sent: Tuesday, 13 September, 2005 01:19 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: an introduction and a question Hi Charles, Thanks for your comments. I have always enjoyed Buddhadasa's writing, particularly since I spent many years doing Zazen in the Yasutani tradition before taking up Vipassana around seven years ago. His idiosyncratic use of Zen concepts mixed with Theravada ones has some consequences, however. If you not have read, Peter Jackson's book on Buddhadasa, you might find it a helpul study. (See his chapters 4 and 5). The Buddhist notion of "re-birth consciousness" is not based on Hindu concepts since, it is also a key concept in the death proximate cognitive process (following "death consciousness") as listed in chapter 5 of the Abhidhammattha Sangha known as "re-birth linking consciousness". This Buddhist notion does not imply any substance, soul or individual entity. <....> 50533 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? nidive Hi Ken H, > When there is right view, progress cannot be stopped. All of the > other Path factors follow just as day follows from dawn (see the > quote Robert gave). > > A similar thing happens with ignorance (moha) and the absence of > ignorance. When kamma is accompanied by moha the citta can only be > akusala. And when kamma is unaccompanied by moha the citta can only > be kusala. > > When kamma is not only unaccompanied by moha but also accompanied by > amoha (of the Middle Way), the citta is not only kusala it is also > vipassana - it can't be anything else. Whatever! Regards, Swee Boon 50534 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:26am Subject: A question onco111 Dear All, Would an ariyan engage in gratuitous self-promotion? Would you expect an ariyan to stand on a public stage and announce his/her nobleness: "I have an announcement to make. I am an ariyan. Listen to what I say..." Dan 50535 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee and Ken H (Attn. James, Howard, and Htoo) - It was like hearing the same old record "River of No Return" again. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > > When there is right view, progress cannot be stopped. All of the > > other Path factors follow just as day follows from dawn (see the > > quote Robert gave). > > > > A similar thing happens with ignorance (moha) and the absence of > > ignorance. When kamma is accompanied by moha the citta can only be akusala. And when kamma is unaccompanied by moha the citta can only be kusala. > > > > When kamma is not only unaccompanied by moha but also accompanied by amoha (of the Middle Way), the citta is not only kusala it is also vipassana - it can't be anything else. > > Whatever! > > Regards, > Swee Boon ------------------------------------------ Tep: It is faithfully sung again and again by KenH -- the sweet song of that super right view that subsumes "right understanding" and "amoha" - this super right view is another name for the Arahant's parinna (full understanding) that has destroyed ignorance for good. This super right view is the utopian dream of Ken H and other followers of K. Sujin. James and Howard also know very well about this utopian dream. Kind regards, Tep ======== 50536 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: A question htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear All, > Would an ariyan engage in gratuitous self-promotion? Would you expect > an ariyan to stand on a public stage and announce his/her nobleness: "I > have an announcement to make. I am an ariyan. Listen to what I say..." > > Dan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Dan, This depends. But recently we have heard someone announcing to be an arahat. I have exchanged emails with that person. He did make flaws and I corrected and he accepted that. Regarding announcement, bhikkhus or monks do not have to announce to lay people for any reason according to vinaya rules. But bhikkhus may announce among bhikkhus that such jobs have been done and so and so have been seen. There are 4 different stages of ariyans. The 2nd highest is anagam. Anagams are free of aversion, ill-will, hatred, depression, anger, fury, stinginess, jealousy, sexual desire, sensuous desire. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Regarding non-bhikkhu arahats they will do parinibbana on the same day when they are enlightened as arahats. They cannot live longer than one day as lay people. 50537 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/23/05 12:00:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Dear All, > Would an ariyan engage in gratuitous self-promotion? Would you expect > an ariyan to stand on a public stage and announce his/her nobleness: "I > have an announcement to make. I am an ariyan. Listen to what I say..." > > Dan > ===================== Whether a breakthrough experience is actually that of stream entry or a lesser "insight experience," to express joy at having had it isn't necessarily a "gratuitous self-promotion." Why not give the benefit of the doubt as to motivation instead of readily condemning? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50538 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:42am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo (and Tep), > > Htoo: 1st aruupa jhaana is based on 4th ruupa jhaana. > > James: Who says so? It seems that you don't believe clear > documentation is necessary in the dhamma but I believe it is. I am > not convinced, and I don't believe anyone should be convinced, > by "Htoo says so and so it must be true". (Sarah gives > documentation with no discourse and you give discourse with no > documentation- maybe we should get you two together! ;-)) > > Anyway, the Buddha does describe how it is possible to achieve the > arupa jhanas without achieving the rupa jhanas first, at least to my > reading. In DN 15, The Mahanidana Sutta, "The Great Discourse on > Origination" the Buddha describes Eight Liberations (Note Htoo- this > is what I mean by documentation) and he describes the method by > which one achieves the fourth liberation, the first arupa jhana: > > "(4) By completely transcending all perception of matter, by the > vanishing of the perception of sense-reactions, and by non- attention > to the perception of variety, thinking "Space is infinite", one > enters and abides in the Sphere of Infinite Space. That is the > Fourth." > > Now, this can be read two ways: 1. By thinking "Space is infinite" > and concentrating on that thought repeatedly, one transcends all > perception of matter, etc. 2. One transcends all perception of > matter, etc. first and then thinks "Space is infinite". As for me, > I choose the first type of reading, but I could be mistaken I > admit. This is not a clear-cut issue and we could probably debate > it for eternity. > > Htoo: Even before the Buddha there were jhaana. After the Buddha > there were jhaana. > > James: I already quoted DN10 to you which demonstrates that after > the Buddha's parinibbana, the time of that sutta, there was no rupa > jhana in India. The son of a Brahmin, quite familiar with all the > sects, ascetics, and Brahmins in India stated that there was no > school or ascetic which practied the four jhanas. Htoo, are you > going to reply specifically to this documentation or are you going > to ignore it? > > Htoo: There are Jaataka. In those Jaataka Bodhisatta had jhaana and > abhinnaa. > > James: Well, this is partial documentation, good job! :-) However, > it would be nice if you gave some specific examples. Anyway, this > doesn't matter, it is quite possible that the Bodhisatta achieved > some jhanas before enlightenment, we are addressing the four rupa > jhaanas which are the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Any > isolated jhanas that the Bodhisatta achieved prior are of no > consequence. > > Why is this so important? Because members in this group are arguing > that since the jhanas aren't unique to the Buddha, they don't have > to be practiced. One can just depend on the concentration that > arises with each citta. That is a perversion of the Buddha's > teaching: The four rupa jhaans are unique to the Buddha and they are > a significant and important part of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Thanks for your reply. Bodhisatta in His very first life as a Bodhisatta was called Hermit Sumedho. He had jhaana. Among many lives, there were lives that Bodhisatta did have jhaana. Please see the story about Mudulakkhana Queen. This is in Tipitaka. Bodhisatta traveled by the sky with jhaana and abhinnaa. When traveling so, by chance he saw female private part of Mudulakkhana Queen and he lost his jhaana and had to descend to the ground. The king let Bodhisatta marry the queen. These jhaana are ruupa jhaanas before enlightenment. So all were not part of NEP. Post-Buddha jhaana. In Myanmar there were and still are many events that monks walk on water, travel by the sky, are met by devas, divide 3 separate bodies and travel to 3 separate places with good reason and many others. These are post-Buddha events in reacheable time. I myself saw one event. The monk that I saw admitted that he was not an ariyan. This already mean that he does have jhaana and he has not enlightened yet. So his jhaana is not of NEP, sure. I am not sort of argumentative people. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50539 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo (and Dan) - In a message dated 9/23/05 12:29:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: > Dear Dan, > > This depends. But recently we have heard someone announcing to be an > arahat. I have exchanged emails with that person. He did make flaws > and > I corrected and he accepted that. > =================== A claim to be an *arahant*? I missed *that*. Are you sure? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50540 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:06am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 4? htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comments. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Please see below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Hi Htoo (&Tep), (continuing with the earlier DTs and my comments. I may have to pick up your and Tep's kind feedback after India....we'll see.[Htoo says OK] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Btw, Tep, thx for reading these cryptic comments too and for clarification, it's never occurred to me to try and persuade you anyone here of anything. I just like to share my own reflections which may or may not be of any value to anyone:)). The value of a list discussion is that one person may benefit and another person may rightly or wrongly disagree with the points. Any responses are valuable, I find. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very true. But once I met some people. Who were in discussion very actively. After a while one was attacked even off- list. He left groups. When I asked him off-list he showed me the email that he received. Someone, who is believed to be Dhamma-lover wrote to him with very offensive ideas and words. As he left, there is no more posts from him. What a loss! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SaraH: (Btw, Htoo, I'll add DT numbers as well this time. When you see just a DSG post number , as in the earlier posts, you can easily key it in the search box on the DSG homepage to quickly access the original message of yours referred to.) 1 #50224, DT550, also DT551, DT553 You say `sannaa arises at ruupa (visual object) and then later, sannaa arises at sadda, gandha .....at dhamma'. I think you mean sannnaa experiences visual object etc, arising with the citta which experiences the same object. This citta (and cetasikas) arise at eye- base etc . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That was just a kind of presentation. As you know sanna which is naama will never shoot from a ruupa like sadda, gandha. What I meant was that sanna arises at ruupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabbaa, and dhamma talking that sanna arises in connection with meeting these ruupa. These ruupa (external sense bases ) are met by internal sense base. Sannaa is naama dhamma. So it will never arise sampayutta with ruupa but vippayutta with ruupa. This is like salt and spice do not mix in the slad even though they exist together. Taste it. Hot and spicy and salty. They are not mixed even though they exist together. This is vippayutta paccaya. Naama and ruupa are always vippayutta. So why should sanna shoot from ruupa or arise from ruupa? What I meant was sanna arises in connection with ruupa, sadda, etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 2 #50225, DT543 letter to Tep & Swee Boon You rightly say all ruupa jhaana objects are pannatti. In terms of specification, there is lots of detail given in Abhidammattha Sangaha for those interested – just as you (Htoo) explain in detail. In BB's CMA, read ch 1X `Compendium of Meditation Subjects (Kamma.t.thaanasangahavibhaaga)'. This follows the `Analysis of Concepts' in ch V111, `Compendium of Conditionality'. Of course, not all details are given in any one sutta (or all the suttas). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But certain people do not like the object of ruupa jhaana to be pannatti. But truely all objects of any ruupa jhaanas 1st through 4th ruupa jhaana all take pannatti. The problem is that taking a single piece of information without penetratively knowing all teachings leads to conflicts. All jhaana do have their own objects. All magga cittas do have their own objects. All phala cittas do have their own objects. Magga cittas are not 'ruupavacara ruupa jhaana cittas' and phala cittas are also not ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana cittas. Does this need any support? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 3 #50239 DT552 A very good post on the various meanings of sankhara, but I got lost in the following paragraph which doesn't sound like you!! "But just as kaaya stands for both body and action [S: and sometimes ruupa or cetasikas], so do the concrete mental syntheses called sankhaara tend to take on the implication of synergies, of purposive intellection, connotated by the term abhisankhara, where sankhara area a purposive, aspiring state of mind to induce a specific rebirth; is catalogued as the three classes of abhisankhara....." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I mixed with abhisankhaara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: S: Perhaps you could instead say something like: `In Dependent Origination, sankhaara refers to abhisankhara or cetana which acted as kamma capable of bringing a result in the way of rebirth (patisandhi). There are 3 kinds of abhisankhara.....etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. I agree. Actually I got an idea from Mahaasatipatthaana Sutta regarding cetana. Sankhaara-kkhandha is more than cetana, I know. Abhisankhaara are all seem to be referring to cetana only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: 4 #50342 Different Approaches to Anatta? You write: "Truly overdosed. Whenever I meet Dhamma-teachers I ask about dhammas that are hold by DSGs, the teachers all smile. These teachers are both learning and teaching and stay in seclusion." S: As I said, I'd like to hear from these smiling teachers in seclusion and would be grateful for their feedback. But when I referred to them a couple of days ago, you said they are none other than those of us already posting, ie DSGers:-// Another Phil paradox:)). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. No. No. This last time I intended to say monk teachers who are meditation teachers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: (Btw, I think we're all fellow students of Dhamma here, basing what we say on talks we've listened to in explanation, written details or the words of the Buddha in the texts.) Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. That is why we are here. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50541 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 5? htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Hi Htoo, #50345 `Different Approaches to Anatta?' You write "Even if many wake them up they will not rise from immobility because they are WAITING for accumulation of wisdom." S::-)) I'm WAITING for your response to Sukin's last long and detailed letter to you:). I'm WAITING for my next swim in the sea and walk on the sand..... All such WAITING is just lobha....we wait and hope and look forward to many empty dreams in a day. If there is any such WAITING for wisdom, it would be just another empty, useless expectation or hope. I can honestly say that I'm not aware of often having this object of lobha, but like any lobha, if and when it arises, it can just be known for what it is with detachment. It's very, very ordinary. Of course, if there is any idea that such WAITING or LOBHA will bring about wisdom, then that would be a kind of wrong view, just like if there's any idea that NOT WAITING, but taking ACTION will bring about wisdom is also a kind of wrong view, wouldn't you say? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bravo! I would not say more on that. If lobha, dosa, and moha are truely seen,..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: #50355 DT543 (letter to Tep) Very clear and excellent. A good summary of the chapters I referred to in Ab.Sangaha. #50360 `Overdose' You say "the danger is that `being not own-knowledge or own- experience or direct-knowledge' means that it is copied knowledge." As Dan suggested, only panna can tell. When I read your excellent DTs, there is no way that I can know whether there is any panna arising or not when you repeat the Abhidhamma details. When we discuss the teachings in detail, then we begin to get a little idea – but even then, such ideas are only based on our very limited own knowledge. You write that `the level of overdose will decrease when doses are no more taken while own-copies or own-experience can to be developed.' Good point! Any understanding that is not our own is totally useless. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I mean for memorization and memory disorders. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: In #50361 `Overdose', you continue with the same theme and give the examples of two extremes- throwing away the books for a period for meditation and overdosing on Abhidhamma as another. You ask what DSGs think. I think the only way is to understand the present dhamma right now as we read and discuss. What appears? What is the reality now? Are we lost in stories about extremes or is there any awareness of seeing, of visible object, of sound, of thinking, of confusion, of attachment? No one can know another's present awareness or wisdom. No need to think about what action to take or not take. The only path is the development of satipatthana, which as you agree, can only be the development of the 8fold path with paramattha dhammas as objects of wisdom and supporting factors. Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. Very good summary. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s thx for any feedback -- I'll pick up threads with you later as I said. The next overdose in November!! ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It's OK. Take time. With respect, Htoo Naing 50542 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:19am Subject: Re: An overdose for Htoo 6? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > #50363 Sammaa-samaadhi > You rightly say that `magga cittas arise with the power of jhaana'. I'd > probably say `with an equivalent power to that of jhaana'. This is because > of the object, nibbana. > > You also rightly say that `magga cittas are never jhaana citttas even > though all magga cittas and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas'. Would > you check this point with your teachers? I understand that even though > nibbana is called appanaa-arammana, it is not experienced with appanaa > samaadhi or cittas, but with cittas which are equivalent in strength to > appanaa samaadhi. A subtle distinction, I believe. > > Perhaps Steve or others have comments on this point or textual references > which I haven't checked. > > I agree with all your other points here. > > Oh, that's it for this overdose:). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for this very post. This is very new to me. I have not thought it yet. That is nibbana and appanaa. What I am sure is all magga and all phala cittas are appanaa cittas. I agree that nibbana cannot be dealt with appanaa-ruupa-jhaana. Tep will definitely deny and I will definitely against the idea of 'sammaa-samaadhi is ONLY *ruupa-jhaana*, which are all appanaa jhaana. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: James seems to like textual support. 50543 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: A question htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo (and Dan) - > > In a message dated 9/23/05 12:29:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Dan, > > > > This depends. But recently we have heard someone announcing to be an > > arahat. I have exchanged emails with that person. He did make flaws > > and > > I corrected and he accepted that. > > > =================== > A claim to be an *arahant*? I missed *that*. Are you sure? > > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, There recently has been waves. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: See dhamma-list messages 2 or 3 weeks back from 23.9.05. 50544 From: nina Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:12am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Dear Howard, > > There recently has been waves. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: See dhamma-list messages 2 or 3 weeks back from 23.9.05. > ------------------------------- Oh. I thought you wre referring to DSG! Thanks. (Yes, I remember that. In fact I think I commented on it - negatively. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50546 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A question / A coded message buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You are a master of coded message (that only you understand). Howard: > > A claim to be an *arahant*? I missed *that*. Are you sure? > > >Htoo: > There recently has been waves. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: See dhamma-list messages 2 or 3 weeks back from 23.9.05. What about E = MC^2 + XYZ + HTOO ? Regards, Tep ====== 50547 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:44pm Subject: Re: A question philofillet Hi Dan and all > Would an ariyan engage in gratuitous self-promotion? Would you expect > an ariyan to stand on a public stage and announce his/her nobleness: "I > have an announcement to make. I am an ariyan. Listen to what I say..." No, of course not. And anyone who did would be exposed as a fraud, at the worst, or seriously deluded, at best. But in this day and age, to be expected. The Buddha's teaching will disappear from this world, as he predicted. Another question - could an ariyan recognize the ariyan attainment of another based on the latter's statement on the internet? Phil 50548 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > Dear James, > > Thanks for your reply. James: Sure, no problem. > > Bodhisatta in His very first life as a Bodhisatta was called Hermit > Sumedho. He had jhaana. James: Okay, here is where we are having some difficulty. I believe that the term 'jhaana' you are using here is being applied to a type of mental yoga which doesn't correspond to the Buddha's teaching of the four jhanas. Sure, many people concentrated their minds on objects, and went into a type of trance, and possibly developed psychic powers as a result, but this STILL isn't the type of jhana that the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught the greater and greater purification of jhana (mental concentration) by advancing the process into steps that utilize joy, rapture, wisdom, and non- clinging. No one else did that- it is unique to the Buddha and allowed him to achieve full enlightenment. The problem, as I see it, is that Pali isn't very specific and one word is often used to apply to a great many things. In other words, not all jhanas < end quote> are the same. From my perspective Among many lives, there were lives that > Bodhisatta did have jhaana. Please see the story about Mudulakkhana > Queen. This is in Tipitaka. Bodhisatta traveled by the sky with > jhaana and abhinnaa. When traveling so, by chance he saw female > private part of Mudulakkhana Queen and he lost his jhaana and had to > descend to the ground. The king let Bodhisatta marry the queen. These > jhaana are ruupa jhaanas before enlightenment. So all were not part > of NEP. James: Yes, these jhanas were not part of the Noble Eightfold Path. They were inferior jhanas. > > Post-Buddha jhaana. > > In Myanmar there were and still are many events that monks walk on > water, travel by the sky, are met by devas, divide 3 separate bodies > and travel to 3 separate places with good reason and many others. > These are post-Buddha events in reacheable time. I myself saw one > event. The monk that I saw admitted that he was not an ariyan. This > already mean that he does have jhaana and he has not enlightened yet. > So his jhaana is not of NEP, sure. James: If this monk displayed psychic abilities to you and he hasn't reached any of the stages of enlightenment, then he is probably practicing an inferior jhana, in my opinion. > > I am not sort of argumentative people. James: Okay, then we can drop it if you would like. You still haven't responded specifically to the sutta quotations I gave you. I think that we are experiecing a culture gap in this conversation :- ). My expectations don't match yours. No big deal- we can move on. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, James 50549 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Thinking that we should ( was Re: More on metta; use of words. philofillet Hi Nina, and all I heard this last night, from the Introduction chapter of Perfections: "If someone's goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, but if he does not take into consideration the development of the perfections, he will notice time and again that he is overtaken by akusala kamma. There are, unfortunately, more conditions for the arising of akusala kamma than for kusala kamma." So yes, what we write below is true of course. A few moments of sati, wealthy man. But it is such a long and hard road, and our insight is so shallow, that the perfections support us, support kusala. I think I have heard that the perfections supported the Bodhisatta through his long journey. We are not bodhisattas, but in a similar way could it be said that the perfections support us? Certainly I find that listening to the Perfections have made me more energetic and determined about not allowing akusala states to linger. Less thinking "well, yes, this is wrong, but at least I know what I am up to." That was lazy, a lack of developing perfections. It has been happening naturally, the Buddha's teaching of the perfections acting as condition. Very encouraging. Phil > op 23-09-2005 01:22 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > We all know the famous words of the venerable who said "a few > > moments of sati in life? Wealthy man!" I have come to believe that > > when at first I thought it was horribly underestimating our > > potential. But now I am beginnning to understand how deep and > > pervasive the unwholesome roots are. Just a few moments of > > detachment, of penetrating paramattha to a certain modest degree - > > how they can free us from anxiety, from concern about how far we can > > progress. > ------ > N: This is very important, I told Lodewijk about this this morning. It is > valuable to have a few moments of sati that is right, this can be > accumulated and paññaa can grow. Right sati instead of many moments of what > one erroneously takes for sati. > ----------- 50550 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:38pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhistmedi... Hi, James and Htoo - No matter how many times I have begged Htoo for a source of reference that supports his statements, my requests have failed to produce a positive result. I think I am seeing the same pattern being repeated again in this message (# 50528). > >Htoo: 1st aruupa jhaana is based on 4th ruupa jhaana. >James: Who says so? It seems that you don't believe clear >documentation is necessary in the dhamma but I believe it is. I am >not convinced, and I don't believe anyone should be convinced, >by "Htoo says so and so it must be true". (Sarah gives >documentation with no discourse and you give discourse with no >documentation- maybe we should get you two together! ;-)) Tep: Thanks, James, for helping me to convince Htoo that clear documentation is critical. Htoo, James asked you a fair question: >James: I already quoted DN10 to you which demonstrates that after > the Buddha's parinibbana, the time of that sutta, there was no rupa >jhana in India. The son of a Brahmin, quite familiar with all the sects, >ascetics, and Brahmins in India stated that there was no school or >ascetic which practied the four jhanas. Htoo, are you going to reply >specifically to this >documentation or are you going to ignore it? -------------------------------- >James: it is quite possible that the Bodhisatta achieved >some jhanas before enlightenment, we are addressing the four rupa >jhaanas which are the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Any >isolated jhanas that the Bodhisatta achieved prior are of no consequence. >Why is this so important? Because members in this group are arguing >that since the jhanas aren't unique to the Buddha, they don't have >to be practiced. One can just depend on the concentration that >arises with each citta. That is a perversion of the Buddha's teaching: > The four rupa jhaanas are unique to the Buddha and they are >a significant and important part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Tep: I definitely agree that the most important point is exactly as you have stated, James. Other seemingly-related issues are not significant. But smoke-screen emitters use them to distract the reader from the main issue that they are unable to address. ----------------------- Tep: Let's examine Htoo's reply to James' message # 50528 >Dear James, [message # 50538] >Thanks for your reply. >Bodhisatta in His very first life as a Bodhisatta was called Hermit >Sumedho. He had jhaana. Among many lives, there were lives that >Bodhisatta did have jhaana. Please see the story about >Mudulakkhana Queen. >This is in Tipitaka. Bodhisatta traveled by the sky with jhaana and >abhinnaa. When traveling so, by chance he saw female private >part of Mudulakkhana Queen and he lost his jhaana and had to >descend to the ground. The king let Bodhisatta marry the queen. >These jhaana are ruupa jhaanas before enlightenment. So all >were not part of NEP. Tep: It is clear that the "jhaana and abhinnaa" (but who said that?) during the time before the Awakening of the Bodhisatta (Siddartha) is not supported by nekkhamma and seclusions(vivekha). Therefore, it is not the same as the "new jhana", i.e. samasamadhi (the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path). The "old jhana" is not pure from kama and akusala dhamma. >Htoo (continuing): >Post-Buddha jhaana. >In Myanmar there were and still are many events that monks walk on >water, travel by the sky, are met by devas, divide 3 separate bodies >and travel to 3 separate places with good reason and many others. >These are post-Buddha events in reacheable time. I myself saw one >event. The monk that I saw admitted that he was not an ariyan. This >already mean that he does have jhaana and he has not enlightened >yet. So his jhaana is not of NEP, sure. >I am not sort of argumentative people. Tep : So this monk was skillful in the old jhana that is impure. But what does that story prove? Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo (and Tep), > > Htoo: 1st aruupa jhaana is based on 4th ruupa jhaana. > 50551 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:50pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,194 / Insight Meditation without Chanda? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Attn. Howard, James, Hasituppada, Matheesha, Htoo)- Thank you very much for taking time off your busy schedule to respond to my post that asked Larry a question on the derived materiality. > Tep: > Is such derived materiality not useful in insight meditation? Nina: Some derived ruupas are implied in suttas: life faculty in Middle Length Sayings ( a dialogue with Dhammadinna), nutrition in the Sammaditthisutta, Space in the Elephants Footprint sutta and the Mahaaraahulovadasutta. Tep: Yes, some and only some of them, not the whole 24 derived materialities. Nina: For the development of insight, the ruupas that are gross are easier to penetrate, that is, compared with the subtle ruupas. As to the gross ruupas, three of the four great elements are gross. Water or cohesion is subtle. The other sense objects and the five sense organs are also gross, moreover, they are derived ruupas. But the four great elements always arise in each group of ruupas. From the above you can see that it is important to have understanding also of the derived ruupas that are gross. Tep: To have a clear understanding of what are saying, it would be very helpful for me if you could explain how you have developed insight using gross derived ruupas. -------------------------------------- Nina: However, we cannot know what realities will appear to sati, it depends on conditions, not on our desire or planning. Tep: Could you please explain how you might develop insight, not knowing what object of sati will appear, and not having a desire (chanda) or attention(manasikara) associated with the mind in any given moment? And it would be very kind of you to compare your approach to any insight development by a sutta of your choice. Where is your mind in those moments before sati arises, and what do you you if sati doesn't arise? Do you ever unify the cognizance(citta)? Breathing Treatise para 4. "When cognizance(citta) is oriented, well oriented, in these sixteen aspects, it establishes the unities(ekatta) and is purified from hindrances. [Tep's note: purification = visuddhi; purification of cognizance = citta-visuddhi] "What are these unities? "Renunciation is unity, non-ill-will is unity, perception of light is unity, non- distraction is unity, definition-of-ideas is unity, knowledge is unity, gladness is unity, also all profitable ideas are unity. [endquote] Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > Larry answered this already. 50552 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:00pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,194 / Insight Meditation without Chanda?/ Two typos ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and all - Please correct two typos in the earlier post. 1. To have a clear understanding of what are saying, it would be very helpful for me if you ... Change to : To have a clear understanding of what you are saying, it would be very helpful for me if you ... 2. Where is your mind in those moments before sati arises, and what do you you if sati doesn't arise? Change to : Where is your mind in those moments before sati arises, and what do you do if sati doesn't arise? I apologize for the typos. Regards, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Nina (Attn. Howard, James, Hasituppada, Matheesha, Htoo)- > > Thank you very much for taking time off your busy schedule to respond > to my post that asked Larry a question on the derived materiality. > > > Tep: > > Is such derived materiality not useful in insight meditation? > 50553 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Re: A question onco111 Hi Phil, > Another question - could an ariyan recognize the ariyan attainment > of another based on the latter's statement on the internet? No way. In some cases, it might be possible recognize a claim as false, but never as true (without deeper examination -- in person). Dan 50554 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:03pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? kenhowardau Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Swee and Ken H (Attn. James, Howard, and Htoo) - > > It was like hearing the same old record "River of No Return" again. > ... > It is faithfully sung again and again by KenH -- the sweet song of > that super right view that subsumes "right understanding" > and "amoha" - this super right view is another name for the Arahant's > parinna (full understanding) that has destroyed ignorance for good. > > This super right view is the utopian dream of Ken H and other followers > of K. Sujin. James and Howard also know very well about this utopian > dream. > If I have a utopian dream and you have absolute facts taught by the Buddha, then I would like to know more. BTW, thanks for the word parinna (full understanding), which I have just now looked up in the dictionary. I don't know how to say this, but parinna, in each of its three forms, does seem to be panna (amoha cetasika). Corrections welcome. Ken H 50555 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking that we should , perfections. nilovg Hi Phil, op 24-09-2005 02:11 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > I heard this last night, from the Introduction chapter of > Perfections: > > "If someone's goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the > characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, > but if he does not take into consideration the development of the > perfections, he will notice time and again that he is overtaken by > akusala kamma. There are, unfortunately, more conditions for the > arising of akusala kamma than for kusala kamma." ------- N: The word unfortunately is not in the text, but perhaps Lodewijk put it in while reading. As to akusala: we cannot expect otherwise, we are worldlings, in samsara. So, I would not give any judgement about akusala. But one can also take unfortunate as: this is the dukkha of defilements which keep us in samsara. Ph: We are not bodhisattas, but in > a similar way could it be said that the perfections support us? ------- N: Provided they are being developed, just now. I listened to adhivasana khanti: patience with regard to our surroundings, (unforeseeable) events of daily life. This can be immediately applied. ------- Nina. 50556 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,194 / Insight Meditation without Chanda? nilovg Hi Tep, I hope you do not mind if I am short and do not continue after this with this thread. I have to solve some unforeseeable, time and mind-consuming problems that came up. op 24-09-2005 03:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > To have a clear understanding of what are saying, it would be very > helpful for me if you could explain how you have developed insight > using gross derived ruupas. > -------------------------------------- N: Gross derived ruupas: such as eyesense: this is difficult for me, although it is gross. I have not developed insight, I am only a beginner on the Path. The expression: using is not correct. We do not use dhammas that arise and appear because of their own conditions. ------------ > > Tep: > Could you please explain how you might develop insight, not knowing > what object of sati will appear, and not having a desire (chanda) or > attention(manasikara) associated with the mind in any given moment? ------- N: Shall we phrase it this way: when sati of satipatthana arises, there is chanda, there is manasikara that is wise attention already. No need to try to have these. ------ T: And it would be very kind of you to compare your approach to any > insight development by a sutta of your choice. ------ N: The sutta you quoted, anattalakkhanasutta, satipatthanasutta, mahaarahulovadasutta, the Elephant's Footprint sutta, many, many suttas, uncountable. Also suttas where it is said that akusala cittas are objects of mindfulness. but I cannot continue a long conversation about interpretation of suttas, if you do not mind. ---------- T: Where is your mind in those moments before sati arises, and what do > you you if sati doesn't arise? ------ N: What is the citta of worldlings like most of the time? Understanding that this is conditioned, also akusala is only a condiitoned dhamma and if we do not really understand this, akusala can never be eradicated. We do not have to name akusala but sati and understanding can get used to also that characteristic; it has a characteristic that can be realized as such. T: Do you ever unify the cognizance(citta)? ------- N: You quote from the Breathing Treatise, and so we have to study this in the context of samatha and vipassana. See the long debates about this subject, also recent ones, it would be repetitious to go into it. Nina. 50557 From: "Tom Rathborne" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:51am Subject: Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? tommer_w --- "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > A Dhamma friend pointed out that this sutta, the Piti Sutta, seems > to indicate that lay people are expressly advised by Buddha to > meditate in seclusion of retreat. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-176.html > Comments? Eek, I wrote a response to this but it disappeared, possibly because I sent it before joining the group. Perhaps our kind moderators have it. If so, we may get to see what my previous draft looked like. Anyway -- curiously, I clicked on 'Context of this sutta', and read: "Instructions to a generous lay person: Generosity is good, but there is still more to be done. An even greater happiness awaits if you practice meditation to attain an internal state of seclusion and rapture." which says nothing about physical seclusion. Can anyone offer an alternate translation or perhaps the Pali? It seems to me that it's all about spiritual seclusion, getting out of all of the entanglements of everyday social life so that there are no thoughts to pop up in the middle of your meditation. I just need to be out of shouting distance for that. Some people need to live in a hut in the desert. Some people can do it on the bus. Also, http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/nl0501.html Metta, Tom P.S. Do whatever it takes! 50558 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:25pm Subject: Gradually Purified ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Grades of Mental Purity: Initially the Noble Learner temporarily disables the mental hindrances and bindings by 'Substitution by the Opposite' using insight: Lust is temporarily substituted by disgust, anger by friendliness, restlessness by calm, laziness by energy and doubt is substituted by certainty... Later the Noble Learner temporarily overcomes the mental hindrances and bindings by 'Suppression' by entering one-pointed absorption of concentration, which is unmixed, unpolluted & untainted by hindrances... Later the Noble Learner permanently eliminates a partial fraction of the hindrances & bindings by 'Cutting Off', at reaching path-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Magga) state... Later the Noble Learned permanently eliminates the remaining fraction of hindrances by effortless 'Calming', at reaching the fruition-moment of the Stream-entry, Once-Returner, Non-Returner and Arahat (Phala) state... Finally the Noble Learned irreversibly leaves behind all mental hindrances and bindings by 'Escape' into the unconditioned & unconditional element of Nibbana, without remaining traces of neither clinging nor other fuels left... Take Home: Substitution => Suppression => Cutting Off => Calming => Escape! Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50559 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Tep: Thanks, James, for helping me to convince Htoo that clear > documentation is critical. Htoo, James asked you a fair question: You're welcome and thank you for a wonderful summary of this thread with Htoo. I would hope that this post ends up in the UP section, but for some reason I doubt it ;-)). Metta, James 50560 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. buddhatrue Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > You're welcome and thank you for a wonderful summary of this thread > with Htoo. I would hope that this post ends up in the UP section, but > for some reason I doubt it ;-)). Oops...after I wrote this I remembered that I had promised Sarah I wouldn't make anymore negative comments about UP because she had offered me to create my own. Apologies. I will try to remember better next time. Metta, James 50561 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > You're welcome and thank you for a wonderful summary of this thread > > with Htoo. I would hope that this post ends up in the UP section, > but > > for some reason I doubt it ;-)). > > Oops...after I wrote this I remembered that I had promised Sarah I > wouldn't make anymore negative comments about UP because she had > offered me to create my own. Apologies. I will try to remember > better next time. > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Ha ha ha ha. That's OK, James. No need apology. As long as we are in good mood there is no reason to arise conflicts even though there do exist conflicts in our belief. We do not need to judge these own beliefs. Because this is human rights. Everything is fine if everyone is fine in their tuning and if they are in right order. If not they all will be in disorders. Ha ha ha ha. With much respect, Htoo Naing 50562 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:10am Subject: Re: The Orderliness of the Dhamma! philofillet Hi Swee Boon I think I will come back to this question now and then as I review Samyutta Nikaya. > Is there any sutta that describes the order: > anatta --> dukkha --> anicca? > > How about: > > anicca --> anatta --> dukkha > dukkha --> anatta --> anicca > dukkha --> anicca --> anatta > anatta --> anicca --> dukkha Here's one for the last pattern. SN 22:1 "He lives obsessed by the notions: 'I am form, form is mine.' As he lives obsessed by these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, ther arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair." Same for the other khandas. And in the positive, the noble disciple is "afflicted in body, but not in mind." He does not cling in the way described above to the khandas (anatta), and when they change and alter (anicca) there is not dukkha. Personally, I find having even an intellectual understanding of anatta helps to a certain extent in this way. A very modest extent, of course. Why does the Buddha teach in so many patterns, with shifting emphasis? The answer seems clear that he has insight into the accumulated wisdom of the person he was teaching, but I guess we don't agree there... Phil 50563 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:31am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 280 Conceit -maana (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter III, 256) gives the following definition of conceit: * "… Herein conceit is fancying (deeming, vain imagining). It has haughtiness as characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self like) a banner as manifestation, greed dissociated from opinionativeness as proximate cause, and should be regarded as (a form of) lunacy." * Attachment is the proximate cause of conceit, but it is attachment which is dissociated from wrong view (diììhigata-vippayutta). As we have seen, conceit does not arise together with wrong view; it arises with lobha-múla-citta which is dissociated from wrong view. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 168) gives a similar definition, but it mentions as manifestation of conceit “vaingloriousness” and it does not mention the desire to advertise oneself like a banner(1). In the definition of the Atthasåliní conceit as desire for selfadvertisement is compared to the desire for a banner. A banner is hoisted into the air so that everyone can see it. We tend to find ourselves important, to uphold ourselves. Conceit is like a lunacy or madness. Although there is no need for self-advertisement or for comparing ourselves with others we still do so, because conceit has been accumulated. The study of akusala dhammas is most helpful. If we do not know what conceit is and in which cases it can arise, we will accumulate more and more conceit without realizing it. *** 1) Compare also Dhammasangaùi §1116, and the explanation of it in the Atthasåliní, Book II, Summary, Chapter II, 372. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50564 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,194 / Insight Meditation without Chanda? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for your reply and I understand why you don't want to get into the details that accompany a long discussion/debate. But I am afraid that my question, which pokes for details of your practice (not theories), cannot be answered satisfactorily by your short post. So I 'd rather wait for another occasion. >N: I hope you do not mind if I am short and do not continue after this >with this thread. I have to solve some unforeseeable, time >and mind-consuming problems that came up. > > Tep: To have a clear understanding of what you are saying, it > >would be very helpful for me if you could explain how > >you have developed insight using gross derived ruupas. > > -------------------------------------- > N: Gross derived ruupas: such as eyesense: this is difficult for me, > although it is gross. I have not developed insight, I am only a >beginner on the Path. The expression: using is not correct. We do not >use dhammas that arise and appear because of their own conditions. > ------------ > > > > Tep: > > Could you please explain how you might develop insight, not > >knowing what object of sati will appear, and not having a desire (chanda) or attention(manasikara) associated with the mind > > in any given moment? > ------- > N: Shall we phrase it this way: when sati of satipatthana arises, > >there is chanda, there is manasikara that is wise attention already. > >No need to try to have these. > ------ > T: And it would be very kind of you to compare your approach to any > > insight development by a sutta of your choice. > ------ > N: The sutta you quoted, anattalakkhanasutta, satipatthanasutta, > mahaarahulovadasutta, the Elephant's Footprint sutta, many, >many suttas, uncountable. Also suttas where it is said that akusala >cittas are objects of mindfulness. but I cannot continue a long >conversation about interpretation > of suttas, if you do not mind. > ---------- > > T: Where is your mind in those moments before sati arises, and what >do you you if sati doesn't arise? > ------ > N: What is the citta of worldlings like most of the time? > > Understanding that this is conditioned, also akusala is only a condiitoned dhamma and if we do not really understand this, akusala can never be eradicated. We do not have to name akusala but sati and understanding can get used to also that characteristic; it has a characteristic that can be realized as such. > > T: Do you ever unify the cognizance(citta)? > ------- > N: You quote from the Breathing Treatise, and so we have to study this in the context of samatha and vipassana. > See the long debates about this subject, also recent ones, it would be > repetitious to go into it. > ------------------------------------- Best wishes, Tep =========== 50565 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhistmedi... Hi Ken H {Attn. Swee, James, Howard, Sarah} - I was surprised to see an unexpectedly short reply from you, Ken. > > Tep: This super right view is the utopian dream of Ken H and other > followers of K. Sujin. James and Howard also know very well about this utopian dream. > > > > Ken H : If I have a utopian dream and you have absolute facts taught by the Buddha, then I would like to know more. > > BTW, thanks for the word parinna (full understanding), which I have > just now looked up in the dictionary. I don't know how to say this, > but parinna, in each of its three forms, does seem to be panna (amoha cetasika). Corrections welcome. > Tep: Your general understanding of "full understanding" is correct : at least it is in total agrreement with mine. The Visuddhimagga gives the explanation of 'parinna', according to the Patisambhidamagga, in paragraph 4, Chapter XX, page 627. No arahants understand the "absolute facts taught by the Buddha" better than the Venerable Sariputta. So you should study the Patisambhidamagga if you want to "know more". Warm regards, Tep ========== 50566 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhistmedi... Hi, James (and Htoo, Swee, Sarah, Jon, KenH, Steve) - I am a little disappointed that the most important part of your wonderful post # 50512, has escaped attention of the DSG members who have the cock-eyed belief that ariya jhana (the Buddha-to-be's discovery, which led to his Awakening) does not exist. >James (quoting DN 10, Subha Sutta): >'And how is a monk guardian of the sense-doors? He guards the >sense-doors and attains the four jhanas (DN 2, verses 64-82). >This comes to him through concentration. That is the division of Ariyan >concentration which the Lord praised...But something more remains to >be done.' >'It is wonderful, Reverend Ananda, it is marvellous! This division >of Ariyan concentration is perfectly fulfilled, not left incomplete. >AND I DO NOT SEE THIS DIVISION OF ARIYAN CONCENTRATION >FULFILLED THUS ANYWHERE AMONG THE ASCETICS AND >BRAHMINS OF OTHER SCHOOLS. Tep: This is the most direct proof that should end any argument of the following kinds: a) Jhana is jhana, is jhana, is jhana. There is only one kind of jhana before or after the Bodhisatta's Awakening. b) Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta achieved all four rupa jhanas, that were the same as the Buddha's four jhanas. c) "It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there were recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most likely before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were attaining these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and now". --------------------------------------- >James: I think that this states without a doubt that Aalaara Kalama and >Udaka Raamaputta did not attain the four rupa jhanas as taught by >the Buddha. >No one else in India at the time of the Buddha practiced the four >jhanas except for the Buddha and his disciples. Tep: You can say that again, and again! Thank you for your diligent finding of this great sutta, DN 10. Warm regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo (and Tep), > 50567 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:28am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: I am a little disappointed that the most important part of your wonderful post # 50512, has escaped attention of the DSG members... James: I am a little disappointed too, but not surprised. It happens all the time. I produce a sutta quote (or several sutta quotes) to disprove a position held by K. Sujin and her followers and the response vary from ignoring the quotation and dropping the thread quickly (Nina's favorite), searching through the commentaries of the sutta to find some small statement which can be twisted/spun to turn the sutta meaning around (Sarah's favorite), pontificating on a completely different subject in order to create a smoke screen (Ken H and Robert K's favorite), or asking a series of leading questions unrelated to the sutta to lead the dialogue astray (Jon's favorite). But really, can you blame them? I try not to blame them too much because they have held on to their beliefs for a long time and then here I come, some young hot shot, who tries to disprove their treasured beliefs. It just isn't going to fly. But it would be wonderful if one day I read "You know, you're right and I'm wrong. Thanks for pointing that out to me." or even "Well, I may not be a right as I think I am- I will give it some more thought". (Phil's favorite- and the best one of all). Tep: Tep: You can say that again, and again! Thank you for your diligent finding of this great sutta, DN 10. James: You're welcome. It was just kamma for me to find that quote; I didn't work diligently at it. I have been reading through DN lately and came across it. Metta, James 50568 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and James, and all) - In a message dated 9/24/05 11:21:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > Hi, James (and Htoo, Swee, Sarah, Jon, KenH, Steve) - > > I am a little disappointed that the most important part of your wonderful > post # 50512, has escaped attention of the DSG members who have > the cock-eyed belief that ariya jhana (the Buddha-to-be's discovery, > which led to his Awakening) does not exist. > > >James (quoting DN 10, Subha Sutta): > >'And how is a monk guardian of the sense-doors? He guards the > >sense-doors and attains the four jhanas (DN 2, verses 64-82). > >This comes to him through concentration. That is the division of Ariyan > >concentration which the Lord praised...But something more remains to > >be done.' > > >'It is wonderful, Reverend Ananda, it is marvellous! This division > >of Ariyan concentration is perfectly fulfilled, not left incomplete. > >AND I DO NOT SEE THIS DIVISION OF ARIYAN CONCENTRATION > >FULFILLED THUS ANYWHERE AMONG THE ASCETICS AND > >BRAHMINS OF OTHER SCHOOLS. > > Tep: This is the most direct proof that should end any argument of the > following kinds: > > a) Jhana is jhana, is jhana, is jhana. There is only one kind of jhana > before or after the Bodhisatta's Awakening. > b) Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta achieved all four rupa > jhanas, that were the same as the Buddha's four jhanas. > c) "It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there were > recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most likely > before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were attaining > these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and now". > --------------------------------------- > > >James: I think that this states without a doubt that Aalaara Kalama and > >Udaka Raamaputta did not attain the four rupa jhanas as taught by > >the Buddha. > >No one else in India at the time of the Buddha practiced the four > >jhanas except for the Buddha and his disciples. > > Tep: You can say that again, and again! Thank you for your diligent > finding of this great sutta, DN 10. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > =========================== I have found another translation of DN 10 that doesn't seem suggest the the 4 jhanas taught by the Buddha are different. It can be found at the site http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/10- subha-e.htm With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50569 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. upasaka_howard Hi, again - Perhaps it is not just the particular translation that I referenced that is relevant. It seems that the description of each part of the training (in sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na) is followed by the same praising of the Buddha's teaching as unique, which changes the whole take, I think. Certainly the Buddha's teaching on sila was not unique! So, I tend to think that this is just a matter of the listener expressing his appreciation of the Buddhadhamma in a dramatic way. It's not clear to me that this sutta unambiguously points to "Buddhist jhanas". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50570 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and James, and all) - > =========================== > I have found another translation of DN 10 that doesn't seem suggest > the the 4 jhanas taught by the Buddha are different. It can be found at the site > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/10- > subha-e.htm I know you are on sabbatical, but can you give more input please. I have read this sutta translation and it is basically the same, except that they put a note instead of the full translation after the section on the four jhanas. Here is the note: "And the answer is followed by the same injunction as to something further to he done, and the same rejoinder as above in Chapter 1, 30.]" This note refers to the previous section which is translated as: "`Wonderful is this, ânanda, and mysteriousÞboth that this so noble group of conduct is well-rounded, not incomplete ; and that I perceive no other, like unto it, among the other Samaõas and Bràhmaõas outside of this communion. [207] And were they also to perceive such in themselves, then would they be satisfied with thus much, and would say: ßSo far is enough. We have done thus much. The aim of our Samaõaship has been reached.û But you, ânanda, on the other hand, say: ßThere is yet something further, according to your system, still to be done.û" James: This again states that no other ascetics or Brahmins, at the time of the Buddha, had achieved the four jhanas as taught by the Buddha. Metta, James 50571 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, again - > > Perhaps it is not just the particular translation that I referenced > that is relevant. It seems that the description of each part of the training (in > sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na) is followed by the same praising of the Buddha's > teaching as unique, which changes the whole take, I think. Certainly the > Buddha's teaching on sila was not unique! James: *GASP*!! Surely, Howard, you haven't lost confidence in the Buddha's sangha. That first section of DN10 on sila contains a description of every aspect of the Buddha's sangha, it isn't a simple description of the five precepts or something. And, of course, the Buddha's sangha was superior to all other ascetics and Brahmins at that time in the observation of sila and training. So, I tend to think that this is just a > matter of the listener expressing his appreciation of the Buddhadhamma in a > dramatic way. James: He was the son of a Brahmin, not a Buddha cheerleader :-). It's not clear to me that this sutta unambiguously points to > "Buddhist jhanas". James: Okay, to each his own. To me it unambiguously points to the fact that everything about the Buddha and is sangha was unique and superior. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 50572 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I know you are on sabbatical, but can you give more input please. I > have read this sutta translation and it is basically the same, > except that they put a note instead of the full translation after > the section on the four jhanas. Oops, I wrote this and posted before I read your second post. I know that you further explained yourself. Metta, James 50573 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhistmedi... Hi, James and all - Dhamma discussion should never become a debate (so I have promised myself today to debate no more), because when there is a temptation to find fault with others, or to save one's face, or to win, the "self demon" will jump out and take control. Then the nice, well- intended discussion will certainly go astray. > James: I am a little disappointed too, but not surprised. It > happens all the time. I produce a sutta quote (or several sutta > quotes) to disprove a position held by K. Sujin and her followers > and the response vary from ignoring the quotation and dropping the > thread quickly (Nina's favorite), searching through the commentaries > of the sutta to find some small statement which can be twisted/spun > to turn the sutta meaning around (Sarah's favorite), pontificating > on a completely different subject in order to create a smoke screen > (Ken H and Robert K's favorite), or asking a series of leading > questions unrelated to the sutta to lead the dialogue astray (Jon's > favorite). Tep: It is great to have a clear vision of a path one is taking. You are gifted with the ability to see clearly. Your assessment above is 100% accurate. Ignoring/dismissing a politely asked question is an insult, even when it is done subtly or jokingly or with an excuse. Dropping a thread quickly is another way to dismiss. Twisting and turning the suttas around is like a crime to me because my saddha in the Buddha is too strong. Smoke screen emitting is not too bad, but it deteriorates my respect toward the emitter. Asking a series of leading (and unfair) questions with the purpose to lead the dialogue astray is another form of smoke screen emission. I hope they will stop all these practices because it shows that they are not yet free from the self demon as they have claimed to be. Thank you for the nice reply, James. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Tep: I am a little disappointed that the most important part of your > wonderful post # 50512, has escaped attention of the DSG members... > > > But really, can you blame them? I try not to blame them too much > because they have held on to their beliefs for a long time and then > here I come, some young hot shot, who tries to disprove their > treasured beliefs. It just isn't going to fly. But it would be > wonderful if one day I read "You know, you're right and I'm wrong. > Thanks for pointing that out to me." or even "Well, I may not be a > right as I think I am- I will give it some more thought". (Phil's > favorite- and the best one of all). > > Tep: Tep: You can say that again, and again! Thank you for your > diligent finding of this great sutta, DN 10. > > James: You're welcome. It was just kamma for me to find that quote; > I didn't work diligently at it. I have been reading through DN > lately and came across it. > > Metta, > James 50574 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:54am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana More proof? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and James) - Thank you for providing the additional translation of DN 10 that is not as strong as the first version (introduced by James). Which version is more credible and why? > Howard: Perhaps it is not just the particular translation that I >referenced that is relevant. It seems that the description of each part >of the training (in sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na) is followed by the same praising of the Buddha's teaching as unique, which changes the whole take, I think. Certainly the Buddha's teaching on sila was not unique! >So, I tend to think that this is just a matter of the listener expressing his >appreciation of the Buddhadhamma in a dramatic way. It's not clear >to me that this sutta unambiguously points to "Buddhist jhanas". > Tep: To really tell the difference between the Buddha's Teaching on sila (i.e. adhisila sikkha) and other teachings we should bring into the discussion a few more suttas like DN 2 Samanna-phala Sutta, AN III.40 Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles, and MN 53 Sekha-patipada Sutta : The Practice for One in Training. Would you like to discuss these 3 suttas with me? What do you think you need to see in order to confidently say that this sutta unambiguously points to "Buddhist jhanas"? Sincerely, Tep ======= 50575 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:30am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. nidive Hi Tep, > Tep: This is the most direct proof that should end any argument of > the following kinds: > > a) Jhana is jhana, is jhana, is jhana. There is only one kind of > jhana before or after the Bodhisatta's Awakening. > b) Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta achieved all four rupa > jhanas, that were the same as the Buddha's four jhanas. > c) "It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there > were recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most > likely before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were > attaining these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and > now". Actually, the way to end all arguments is to attain the jhanas themselves. Whether we are of the opinion there are one or two systems of jhanas, we must all ONLY practice right jhanas as described in standard sutta passages. I think this is basically a non-issue, the truth of which does not lead one iota towards unbinding, in my opinion. If it were so important, the Buddha would certainly have devoted a sutta or two on the distinctions between "pre" and "post" jhanas. Regards, Swee Boon 50576 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: The Orderliness of the Dhamma! nidive Hi Phil, > > anatta --> anicca --> dukkha > > Here's one for the last pattern. SN 22:1 "He lives obsessed by > the notions: 'I am form, form is mine.' As he lives obsessed by > these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change > and alteration of form, ther arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, > displeasure and despair." > > Same for the other khandas. And in the positive, the noble > disciple is "afflicted in body, but not in mind." He does not cling > in the way described above to the khandas (anatta), and when they > change and alter (anicca) there is not dukkha. You are certainly diligent! But this sutta doesn't justify anicca from anatta. It simply states anicca as a fact separate from anatta. > Personally, I find having even an intellectual understanding of > anatta helps to a certain extent in this way. A very modest extent, > of course. True. > Why does the Buddha teach in so many patterns, with shifting > emphasis? The answer seems clear that he has insight into the > accumulated wisdom of the person he was teaching, but I guess we > don't agree there... Obviously, I discounted the above case. So, there are only two patterns so far: anicca --> dukkha --> anatta and its reverse: anatta --> dukkha --> anicca Both can be found in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (which you pointed out for the reverse case). http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-22-059-tb0.html And in that sutta, the Budhha certainly placed more emphasis on the order: anicca --> dukkha --> anatta Regards, Swee Boon 50577 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhistmedi... Hi, Swee - Thank you for your words of wisdom. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > If it were so important, the Buddha would certainly have devoted a > sutta or two on the distinctions between "pre" and "post" jhanas. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Wholeheartedly agreed. But you should be reminded that once the momentum is created, a mass will continue to move forward until the resultant of all external forces reduces to zero. Sincerely, Tep ======== 50578 From: nina Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:28am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia Ch 4, no. 4 nilovg Dear friends, > Oops, I wrote this and posted before I read your second post. I know > that you further explained yourself. > ===================== No problem. I understood that is what happened. :-) BTW, I would personally be happy if, as Ven Vimalaramsi, for example, claims, the "Buddhist jhanas" were different from the absorptive jhanas that he was taught by others. And it may well be so, but I'm not persuaded that DN 10 shows that, and I just don't know whether it is so or not. What I *do* think is truly unique in the Buddha's is 1) his anatta teaching, and 2) his instructions for investigating dhammas, typically from a jhanic base, in order to gain direct insight into the tilakkhana. Now back to my "seclusion"! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50580 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana More proof? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and James) - In a message dated 9/24/05 12:55:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > > Hi, Howard (and James) - > > Thank you for providing the additional translation of DN 10 that is not as > strong as the first version (introduced by James). Which version is > more credible and why? > > >Howard: Perhaps it is not just the particular translation that I > >referenced that is relevant. It seems that the description of each part > >of the training (in sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na) is followed by the > same praising of the Buddha's teaching as unique, which changes the > whole take, I think. Certainly the Buddha's teaching on sila was not > unique! > >So, I tend to think that this is just a matter of the listener expressing > his > >appreciation of the Buddhadhamma in a dramatic way. It's not clear > >to me that this sutta unambiguously points to "Buddhist jhanas". > > > > Tep: To really tell the difference between the Buddha's Teaching on > sila (i.e. adhisila sikkha) and other teachings we should bring into the > discussion a few more suttas like DN 2 Samanna-phala Sutta, AN III.40 > Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles, and MN 53 Sekha-patipada > Sutta : The Practice for One in Training. Would you like to discuss > these 3 suttas with me? --------------------------------------- Howard: Please forgive me, but I wish to beg off so as not to get drawn back in to too much list involvement. --------------------------------------- > > What do you think you need to see in order to confidently say that this > sutta unambiguously points to "Buddhist jhanas"? -------------------------------------- Howard: Had the sutta indicated a particular uniqueness to the samadhi portion of the practice, I would have said there was no ambiguity, but praising all three aspects left the matter ambiguous. ---------------------------------------- > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50581 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: Ignoring/dismissing a politely asked question is an insult, even when it is done subtly or jokingly or with an excuse. Dropping a thread quickly is another way to dismiss. Twisting and turning the suttas around is like a crime to me because my saddha in the Buddha is too strong. Smoke screen emitting is not too bad, but it deteriorates my respect toward the emitter. Asking a series of leading (and unfair) questions with the purpose to lead the dialogue astray is another form of smoke screen emission. I hope they will stop all these practices because it shows that they are not yet free from the self demon as they have claimed to be. James: Oh goodness, have I opened a can of worms! Tep, I just pointed out the faults and foibles of those members of DSG who usually stand as my adversaries in order to give them something to think about. (When I post, I know that I am not just speaking to one person, but to several people). I didn't expect you to pick up the ball and to carry the issue even further! LOL! (But I understand your frustration). Really, these people that I wrote about have good hearts and they are good people- they are Buddhist after all. We all have our faults and foibles, and those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones- except very carefully to those others in the same glass house ;-). I am sure that all the people I mentioned could get together and have a few choice things to say about me also! ;-)) We just have to take it little by little, gently by gently...like the single drops in the water bucket to fill it up. Metta, James 50582 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:54pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Howard, Howard: BTW, I would personally be happy if, as Ven Vimalaramsi, for example, claims, the "Buddhist jhanas" were different from the absorptive jhanas that he was taught by others. And it may well be so, but I'm not persuaded that DN 10 shows that, and I just don't know whether it is so or not. What I *do* think is truly unique in the Buddha's is 1) his anatta teaching, and 2) his instructions for investigating dhammas, typically from a jhanic base, in order to gain direct insight into the tilakkhana. Now back to my "seclusion"! ;-)) James: I am so pleased that you are trying to maintain your practice in the face of all this blather! ;-)) Anyway, may I suggest one idea to you??? Just because a sutta is formulaic doesn't mean it is less true- and you can quote me on that! :-) The monks of the Buddha's sangha often arranged the discourses so that they could be easily memorized, while still keeping the original meanings intact. This was not an easy job and many important decisons had to be made in regards to each sutta- that is why only arahants were allowed to participate in the First Council. Of course, probably some suttas were slipped in after that (but very few I believe). The thing to do is the judge the sutta as a whole: does it correspond to the meaning of the rest of the suttas or does it contradict or variate? This sutta, DN 10, hardly variates in any way. So, Howard, unless you expect to get a personal letter through time travel from the spokesman of this sutta about the uniqueness of the Buddha's jhanas, just give it up! ;-)) BTW, Good luck with your practice...I hope it isn't too lonely for you. Metta, James 50583 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Views (Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi.) christine_fo... Hello Tep, Many of us have been on this list for five years or more. It is an oasis in the desert of wrong views that proliferate in this Dhamma Ending age. I have seen many join dsg, flying the flag of self, disputing, full of their own views. Some have stayed, listened, studied, tested, compared and investigated - always checking with the Tipitaka as the acid test for validation of truth. By doing this, they have found an opening into the unspeakable happiness of the True Dhamma. They have found, as I did, that the Admirable Friends on this List have the patience and skill to point us to Treasure. There would be no point in staying here otherwise .... Sutta Nipata IV.8 Pasura Sutta To Pasura ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Only here is there purity" -- that's what they say -- "No other doctrines are pure" -- so they say. Insisting that what they depend on is good, they are deeply entrenched in their personal truths. Seeking controversy, they plunge into an assembly, regarding one another as fools. Relying on others' authority, they speak in debate. Desiring praise, they claim to be skilled. Engaged in disputes in the midst of the assembly, -- anxious, desiring praise -- the one defeated is chagrined. Shaken with criticism, he seeks for an opening. He whose doctrine is [judged as] demolished, defeated, by those judging the issue: He laments, he grieves -- the inferior exponent. "He beat me," he mourns. These disputes have arisen among contemplatives. In them are elation, dejection. Seeing this, one should abstain from disputes, for they have no other goal than the gaining of praise. He who is praised there for expounding his doctrine in the midst of the assembly, laughs on that account & grows haughty, attaining his heart's desire. That haughtiness will be his grounds for vexation, for he'll speak in pride & conceit. Seeing this, one should abstain from debates. No purity is attained by them, say the skilled. Like a strong man nourished on royal food, you go about, roaring, searching out an opponent. Wherever the battle is, go there, strong man. As before, there's none here. Those who dispute, taking hold of a view, saying, "This, and this only, is true," those you can talk to. Here there is nothing -- no confrontation at the birth of disputes. Among those who live above confrontation not pitting view against view, whom would you gain as opponent, Pasura, among those here who are grasping no more? So here you come, conjecturing, your mind conjuring viewpoints. You're paired off with a pure one and so cannot proceed. http://tinyurl.com/2628m metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50584 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:09pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhistmedi... Hi, James - You didn't open a can of worms at all, because I just wanted to grumble a little and then shut my mouth. > James: I didn't expect you to pick up the ball and to carry the issue >even further! LOL! (But I understand your frustration). Really, these >people that I wrote about have good hearts and they are good >people- they are Buddhist after all. Tep: Okay, James. No harm was meant anyway. > James: We all have our faults and foibles, and those who live in >glass houses shouldn't throw stones- except very carefully to those >others in the same glass house ;-). I am sure that all the people I > mentioned could get together and have a few choice things to say > about me also! ;-)) Tep: Yes, you may also include Tep in that group with faults and foibles. To be fair I am open to any criticisms, if anyone feels like telling me something they don't like about my posts, etc. >James: We just have to take it little by little, gently by gently...like the >single drops in the water bucket to fill it up. > Tep: Sorry to have carried the ball a little too far to cause you an uncomfortable feeling! Kind regards, Tep ======== 50585 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Tep: Sorry to have carried the ball a little too far to cause you an > uncomfortable feeling! James: Oh heck no! I am so pleased to have you in my corner on this issue! I just don't like to get a lot of bad 'vibes' from the other members. (Imagine walking into a hornet's nest ;-)) Metta, James 50586 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:37pm Subject: Treasure buddhistmedi... Hi, Christine - >Chris : They have found, as I did, that the Admirable Friends on this >List have the patience and skill to point us to Treasure. There would >be no point in staying here otherwise .... Tep: I definitely agree with your implied suggestion, although not with the Treasure. Sincerely, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Tep, > > Many of us have been on this list for five years or more. It is an > oasis in the desert of wrong views that proliferate in this Dhamma > Ending age. I have seen many join dsg, flying the flag of self, > disputing, full of their own views. Some have stayed, listened, > studied, tested, compared and investigated - always checking with > the Tipitaka as the acid test for validation of truth. By doing > this, they have found an opening into the unspeakable happiness of > the True Dhamma. They have found, as I did, that the Admirable > Friends on this List have the patience and skill to point us to > Treasure. There would be no point in staying here otherwise .... > (snipped) 50587 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhistmedi... Hi, James - > > Tep: Sorry to have carried the ball a little too far to cause you > an uncomfortable feeling! > > James: Oh heck no! I am so pleased to have you in my corner on this > issue! I just don't like to get a lot of bad 'vibes' from the other > members. (Imagine walking into a hornet's nest ;-)) > Tep: I appreciate the small and isolated corner you are dwelling, and I have visited it quite often lately . :-) Fortunately, so far I have not encountered a menacing wasp here yet. But if I keep on poking too often, maybe I am going to be the first one to get hospitalized. Warm regards, Tep =========== 50588 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: Treasure buddhatrue Hi Christine (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > > >Chris : They have found, as I did, that the Admirable Friends on this > >List have the patience and skill to point us to Treasure. There would > >be no point in staying here otherwise .... > > Tep: I definitely agree with your implied suggestion, although not with > the Treasure. Christine, I read your post to Tep also, and I wonder: What you are standing up for? Really, just what are you standing up for? You are not some little wall flower stuck out in the Austrailan Outback, you are a strong, independent woman with your own ideas and talents (especially the Internet! ;-)*. So, what do you stand for? And don't tell my that you are a DSG complete devotee; I have seen differently. You have questioned the "no control" and "no meditation" party lines on this list several times. So, tell me, if you wish, what do you stand for? Metta, James ps. I have lost all of my Buddhist bookmarks through a computer problem. Would you be willing to send me your treasure of Buddhist bookmarks? I know you have the best! :-) 50589 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:27pm Subject: Re: Treasure christine_fo... Hello James, Exactly so. Mostly (no doubt, not always), I have tried to courteously discuss and gently question a member directly when I didn't understand, or didn't agree with a point of view, or their understanding of the teachings. Or contact them off-list. You ask what am I standing up for? Right Speech. http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/rtspch1.htm I don't see any need to get into an adversarial or competitive position, and I don't think it is constructive to make judgments and remarks about other individuals, their motives, their posting styles, or their understanding of the scriptures, on the list. When I had differences in understanding with another (and I do recall some head-to-heads with Victor before his ordination), I didn't speak about them on this list to another person as if they didn't exist. This is a Dhamma discussion list. Not a chat room. Back-channel could be used for much of the "me too!" postings. Please feel free to contact me off-list if you have anything further to add to this thread. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Christine, I read your post to Tep also, and I wonder: What you are > standing up for? Really, just what are you standing up for? You > are not some little wall flower stuck out in the Austrailan Outback, > you are a strong, independent woman with your own ideas and talents > (especially the Internet! ;-)*. So, what do you stand for? And > don't tell my that you are a DSG complete devotee; I have seen > differently. You have questioned the "no control" and "no > meditation" party lines on this list several times. So, tell me, if > you wish, what do you stand for? > > Metta, > James > ps. I have lost all of my Buddhist bookmarks through a computer > problem. Would you be willing to send me your treasure of Buddhist > bookmarks? I know you have the best! :-) 50590 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. christine_fo... Hello Howard,all, I quite agree with your understanding. A couple of points: The Subha Sutta is possibly of little importance in the tradition. It consists of a dialogue between Ananda and a brahmin whose name means 'man of Tudi'. The translator Maurice Walshe says about this sutta 'One may wonder slightly why this is included as a separate Sutta, consisting as it does of little more than the corresponding passages in DN2. But the repetitiveness was never regarded by the early redactors of the Canon as a bar to inclusion, and this was no doubt independently preserved as an account of Suha's conversion.' I think in the quote it doesn't say that the serenity meditation taught by other contemplatives was "wrong" - only that it was 'left incomplete'. I think the quote could be emphasised this way: "'It is wonderful, Reverend Andanda, it is marvellous! This division of Ariyan concentration IS PERFECTLY FULFILLED, NOT LEFT INCOMPLETE. And I do not see this division of ariyan concentration FULFILLED thus anywhere among the ascetics and brahmins of other schools.'" Bhikkhu Bodhi says in MN p.38- "APPROACHES TO MEDITATION" 'The methods of meditation taught by the Buddha in the Pali Canon fall into two broad systems. One is the development of serenity (samatha), which aims at concentration (samaadhi; the other is the development of insight (vipassanaa), which aims at understanding or wisdom (pa~n~naa). In the Buddha's system of mental training the role of serenity is subordinated to that of insight because the latter is the crucial instrument needed to uproot the ignorance at the bottom of samsaaric bondage. The attainments possible through serenity meditation were known to Indian contemplatives long before the advent of the Buddha. The Buddha himself mastered the two highest stages under his early teachers but found that they only led to higher planes of rebirth, not to genuine enlightenment. (MN. 26 15-16). However, because the unification of mind induced by the practice of concentration contributes to clear understanding, the Buddha incorporated the techniques of serenity meditation and the resulting levels of absorption into his own sysetem, treating them as a foundation and preparation for insight and as a "pleasant abiding here and now".' metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, again - > > Perhaps it is not just the particular translation that I referenced > that is relevant. It seems that the description of each part of the training (in > sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na) is followed by the same praising of the Buddha's > teaching as unique, which changes the whole take, I think. Certainly the > Buddha's teaching on sila was not unique! So, I tend to think that this is just a > matter of the listener expressing his appreciation of the Buddhadhamma in a > dramatic way. It's not clear to me that this sutta unambiguously points to > "Buddhist jhanas". > > With metta, > Howard 50591 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: The Orderliness of the Dhamma! philofillet Hi Swee Boon > You are certainly diligent! Thanks to your question. It gives me a very good framework to review (and hopefully reflect a little more deeply on) the suttas I have read in SN. > But this sutta doesn't justify anicca from anatta. It simply states > anicca as a fact separate from anatta. I meant to ask about "justify." I think I see now. So you are looking for perception/understanding of anicca, for example, that arises from/is directly conditioned by perception/understanding of anatta? That is the meaning of "justifies?" If I had followed the whole thread more carefully I wouldn't need to ask. Phil 50592 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV,195 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 195. 'All that together in the mass and in the gross': by making all that materiality, separately described by the words 'past', etc., into a collection by understanding its oneness, in other words, its characteristic of being molested (ruppana), it comes to be called the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. This is the meaning here. 50593 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? kenhowardau Hi Tom, -------------- T: > Eek, I wrote a response to this but it disappeared, possibly because I sent it before joining the group. Perhaps our kind moderators have it. If so, we may get to see what my previous draft looked like. -------------- Welcome to DSG, I am glad you persevered. -------------------- T: > Anyway -- curiously, I clicked on 'Context of this sutta', and read: "Instructions to a generous lay person: Generosity is good, but there is still more to be done. An even greater happiness awaits if you practice meditation to attain an internal state of seclusion and rapture." which says nothing about physical seclusion. Can anyone offer an alternate translation or perhaps the Pali? -------------------- Most (not all) of our Pali experts are busy at the moment - preparing for a trip to India among other things. Have you noticed the "Useful Posts" folder in our Files section? I had a quick look at the latest three under the heading "Seclusion" and noticed that 46801 (posted by Ven. Samahita) discusses internal seclusion. 46741, by Nina, discuses external seclusion, and 46632, by Sarah, discusses both. They are well worth reading. -------------------------------- T: > It seems to me that it's all about spiritual seclusion, getting out of all of the entanglements of everyday social life so that there are no thoughts to pop up in the middle of your meditation. ---------------------------------- Vipassana (specifically satipatthana) can be practised at any time of the day, regardless of what we may be doing. It is conditioned by knowledge of the Buddha's teaching, not by any formal activity (e.g., sitting in a quiet place). --------------- T: > I just need to be out of shouting distance for that. Some people need to live in a hut in the desert. Some people can do it on the bus. --------------- When the concept known as 'shouting' is being experienced there are, in ultimate reality, conditioned paramattha dhammas. For example, there are; audible object, hearing-consciousness, volitional contact, perception, mental feeling, and other dhammas that think about shouting. These dhammas - and not the concept of shouting - are the real objects of satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. I hope you will forgive my saying so, but your idea that a quiet place is better (or worse) than a noisy place suggests that you might not have properly understood the Dhamma. If that is the case, then meditation - in the ultimate sense of the word - has not been conditioned to arise just yet. Never mind, you not alone - far from it! :-) ------------------------------ T: > Also, http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/nl0501.html Metta, Tom -------------------------------- Are you a student of SN Goenka? Several DSG members - including myself - have attended his courses. I now prefer to study the Dhamma as found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. But there is a wide diversity at DSG - many of us think the commentaries are "nonsense" and the Abhidhamma-pitaka is "not the word of the Buddha." But we all get along surprisingly well - most of the time. :-) ---------------------------------------------- T: > P.S. Do whatever it takes ---------------------------------------------- Thanks, I take that to mean that the dhammas, panna (right understanding) and sati (mindfulness) should do whatever it takes. (That is, they should know one of the presently arisen dhammas for what it really is.) After all, in the world taught by the Buddha there are only dhammas. Ken H 50594 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana =. philofillet Hi Tep and James Christine has already said enough, with typical calm and compassion, but Phil has to get in there too, with typically less of the above. The obvious question is...why don't you join a differnt Yahoo group? Because of the patience and generosity of Sarah, Jon, Nina and others, you have been provided with a forum to express your views, and your way of expressing gratitude is this kind of exchange. I think there are several hundred Yahoo groups devoted to Dhamma. This group was founded in Thailand some 30 years ago, with a focus on Abhidhamma and the appreciation of present realities (I prefer paramattha dhammas, personally.) The group started from talks with A. Sujin and that is still the basis. A lot of time and energy is spent here discussing your views when they would simply be put aside during a talk with A. Sujin. (Which I guess is not necessarily a bad thing, but the balance is way off and a lot of people who join the talks in Thailand don't participate here, I would guess for that reason.) The moderators might scold me for saying this, but I have always thought so and probably always will - If you don't like A. Sujin's approach to Dhamma, wouldn't it be less stressful and more rewarding for you to go elsewhere? You are dojo yaburi guys in my opinion - guys who bust in to someone else's dojo to show off their karate skills. I have said so before and still think so, so will say so now and again. (Sorry Sarah!) Phil > > James: I am a little disappointed too, but not surprised. It > > happens all the time. I produce a sutta quote (or several sutta > > quotes) to disprove a position held by K. Sujin and her followers > > and the response vary from ignoring the quotation and dropping the > > thread quickly (Nina's favorite), searching through the commentaries > > of the sutta to find some small statement which can be twisted/spun > > to turn the sutta meaning around (Sarah's favorite), pontificating > > on a completely different subject in order to create a smoke screen > > (Ken H and Robert K's favorite), or asking a series of leading > > questions unrelated to the sutta to lead the dialogue astray (Jon's > > favorite). > > Tep: It is great to have a clear vision of a path one is taking. You are > gifted with the ability to see clearly. Your assessment above is 100% > accurate. > 50595 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:51pm Subject: A fingersnap of the perception of impermanence philofillet Hi all Can someone help me identify this sutta passage, which I jotted down in a notebook without a reference? "Though with a pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater would be the fruit had he instead become a mere passing fragrance of loving kindness, (greater than that) just a fingersnap of the perception of impermanence." I think this joins the "a single excellent night" sutta as a great inspiration for those of us who appreciate the moment (including moments of metta.) Of course, the danger is in over-estimating one's ability to have this kind of insight - to mistake thinking about insight, thinking about sati, thinking about metta, for the real thing. Phil 50596 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Re: The Orderliness of the Dhamma! nidive Hi Phil, > I meant to ask about "justify." I think I see now. So you are > looking for perception/understanding of anicca, for example, that > arises from/is directly conditioned by perception/understanding of > anatta? That is the meaning of "justifies?" If I had followed the > whole thread more carefully I wouldn't need to ask. A simple reasoning of the implication anatta --> anicca would suffice. Regards, Swee Boon 50597 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:21pm Subject: Male or Female? nidive Hi All, I remember Nina once talked about a dhamma that determines if one is a male or a female. I came across this adoption agency CWA and they have a special needs child with the following description: Female. dob: 8/10/03. Born with both female and male external genital organs http://www.cwa.org/1sn0605/a7.htm How does the Abhidhamma explain the gender for such a case? Regards, Swee Boon 50598 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:53pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 Hi Tep, To answer briefly your question... > How do you understand Right view? My take on it is that there is a clear distinction between ditthi (views, opinions, conceptual formulations) and sammaditthi (viewing rightly, direct understanding) in the suttas. Allegiance to conceptual formulations is ditthi, seeing reality as it is is sammaditthi, and there is a sharp, clear, striking contrast between the two. Metta, Dan 50599 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. nidive Hi Christine, > I think in the quote it doesn't say that the serenity meditation > taught by other contemplatives was "wrong" - only that it was 'left > incomplete'. I think the quote could be emphasised this way: > "'It is wonderful, Reverend Andanda, it is marvellous! This division > of Ariyan concentration IS PERFECTLY FULFILLED, NOT LEFT INCOMPLETE. > And I do not see this division of ariyan concentration FULFILLED > thus anywhere among the ascetics and brahmins of other schools.'" An excellent point to note indeed! Regards, Swee Boon