50600 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - You make this sound like a private list for devotees of Khun Sujin. That is not the impression I have ever gotten from Jon & Sarah. If you wish to criticize the tone or attitude, expressed in someone's posts, or the manner of expresion, that's just fine, it seems to me, but I feel that it goes rather far to "invite" someone off the list. That isn't the purvue of a mere member of the list, is it? I seriously think that the list owner-moderators are quite adept at handling list administration on their own, don't you? With metta, Howard P.S. Please know that I write this as a friend, not an adversary. In a message dated 9/24/05 8:41:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > > Hi Tep and James > > Christine has already said enough, with typical calm and > compassion, but Phil has to get in there too, with typically less of > the above. > > The obvious question is...why don't you join a differnt Yahoo > group? Because of the patience and generosity of Sarah, Jon, Nina > and others, you have been provided with a forum to express your > views, and your way of expressing gratitude is this kind of > exchange. > > I think there are several hundred Yahoo groups devoted to Dhamma. > This group was founded in Thailand some 30 years ago, with a focus > on Abhidhamma and the appreciation of present realities (I prefer > paramattha dhammas, personally.) The group started from talks with > A. Sujin and that is still the basis. A lot of time and energy is > spent here discussing your views when they would simply be put aside > during a talk with A. Sujin. (Which I guess is not necessarily a bad > thing, but the balance is way off and a lot of people who join the > talks in Thailand don't participate here, I would guess for that > reason.) The moderators might scold me for saying this, but I have > always thought so and probably always will - If you don't like A. > Sujin's approach to Dhamma, wouldn't it be less stressful and more > rewarding for you to go elsewhere? You are dojo yaburi guys in my > opinion - guys who bust in to someone else's dojo to show off their > karate skills. I have said so before and still think so, so will say > so now and again. (Sorry Sarah!) > > Phil /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50601 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:50pm Subject: Re: Male or Female? christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi All, > > I remember Nina once talked about a dhamma that determines if one is a > male or a female. > > I came across this adoption agency CWA and they have a special needs > child with the following description: > > Female. dob: 8/10/03. Born with both female and male external genital > organs > > http://www.cwa.org/1sn0605/a7.htm > > How does the Abhidhamma explain the gender for such a case? > > Regards, > Swee Boon Hello Swee Boon, My nephew was born with no external genital organs. That was many years ago - and even then it was a simple matter to do a medical test to discover whether he (as it turned out) was male or female. (The pathologists said no-one is gender-indeterminate). Then came some years of surgery to construct a male organ - which, so I hear - performs all required tasks satisfactorily. External organs are not what indicates maleness or femaleness scientifically. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50602 From: "seisen_au" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? seisen_au Hi All, Thanks for the sutta Chris. Welcome to the group Tom, some comments below. > >Christine wrote: > > A Dhamma friend pointed out that this sutta, the Piti Sutta, seems > > to indicate that lay people are expressly advised by Buddha to > > meditate in seclusion of retreat. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-176.html > > Comments? == > Tom wrote: > Anyway -- curiously, I clicked on 'Context of this sutta', and read: > > "Instructions to a generous lay person: Generosity is good, but there > is still more to be done. An even greater happiness awaits if you > practice meditation to attain an internal state of seclusion and rapture." > > which says nothing about physical seclusion. Can anyone offer an > alternate translation or perhaps the Pali? == The Pali for `So you should train yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.' That's how you should train yourself." is: Tasmaatiha, gahapati, eva.m sikkhitabba.m– `kinti maya.m kaalena kaala.m paviveka.m piiti.m upasampajja vihareyyaamaa'ti! Eva~nhi vo, gahapati, sikkhitabban"ti. The `seclusion & rapture' = paviveka.m piiti.m The commentary on this sutta comments on seclusion & rapture: Paviveka.m piitinti pa.thamadutiyajjhaanaani nissaaya uppajjanakapiiti.m. `Seclusion and rapture' meaning the rapture born on account of the 1st and 2nd jhanas Corrections welcome. Steve ps. Sarah, I don't really have anything I can add to the Nibbana, appana discussion. 50603 From: nina Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:41am Subject: Greater Discourse on Emptiness nilovg Dear friends, This morning I heard Kh Sujin's comments on part of the Greater Discourse on Emptiness (M.N. III, no 122). This is about a monk who develops calm and insight , he develops the vihaara dhammas. I took the translation by Sister Upalavanna from Rob K's web who has the complete M.S. om his web (under Vipassana). As to the word seep, PTS has: flow in. Source: Rob's web:< http://www.vipassana.info/122-mahasunnata-e.htm> We read that the monk who is mindful naturally walks up and down, assumes the four postures. She said: The Sutta text states: The sutta then deals with wholesome thinking and with the five strands of sense pleasures the five khandhas of grasping he should be aware of until the 'I am" conceit has been eradicated. ***** Nina. 50604 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana More proof? nilovg Hi Tep and Howard, these are subjects worth discussing. For now I am not able to discuss much, but, Tep, remind me later on. As to the Samanna-phala Sutta, I have the transl and Co. notes of B.B. Best to discuss one at a time, otherwise it is too much. I agree with James that the Buddha's teaching on siila, samaadhi and paññaa is unique. I think he gave a new dimension to siila and samaadhi. As Howard said, the Buddha's teaching of anattaa is truly unique. I think that this permeates all his other teachings. Nina. op 24-09-2005 21:58 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Tep: To really tell the difference between the Buddha's Teaching on >> sila (i.e. adhisila sikkha) and other teachings we should bring into the >> discussion a few more suttas like DN 2 Samanna-phala Sutta, AN III.40 >> Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles, and MN 53 Sekha-patipada >> Sutta : The Practice for One in Training. Would you like to discuss >> these 3 suttas with me? 50605 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: Male or Female? nidive Hi Christine, > External organs are not what indicates maleness or femaleness > scientifically. Thanks! Regards, Swee Boon 50606 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:28pm Subject: What is Ignorance ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this Ignorance - The very root of all Suffering ? At Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana, they once asked Sariputta: Ignorance, ignorance, it is said, what now, friend, is this ignorance, and in what way is one immersed in such ignorance??? Here, friend, the uninstructed ordinary person does not understand as it really is: The arising, the ceasing, the satisfaction, the danger, nor the escape, nor the way leading to escape, neither in the case of form, nor of in the case of feeling, nor of in the case of perception, nor of in the case of mental construction, nor of in the case of this consciousness. This, friends, is called ignorance, and in this way is one indeed still immersed in the blindness of ignorance... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:131+5 III 174-6 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50607 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:14am Subject: What does it take ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend kenhowardau wisely wrote: >But we all get along surprisingly well - most of the time. :-) Hehehe anicca! T asks: >> P.S. Do whatever it takes whereto kenhowardau responds: >I take that to mean that the dhammas, panna (understanding) >and sati (mindfulness) should do whatever it takes... Not bad at all !!, yet let us not forget calm & concentration opening & enabling the penetration level of understanding!! As emphasized ad infinitum before: Sila => Samadhi => Panna Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 50608 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:56am Subject: Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... philofillet Hi Howard Of course you're right, it's an open forum. That's the nature of the internet. But it just suddenly struck me as peculiar that if James and Tep or anyone else have such a negative opinion of the people they discuss with, (see the descriptions of people penned by James and echoed so happily by Tep), people who have put in long hours into patiently explaining Dhamma to them and of A. Sujin and her teaching, what's the point? Of course the ideal is learning from each other, but I wonder if that really happens. I'm interested in the bhavana aspect of Dhamma talk, and I think the adversarial energy of discussion (trying to prove who's wrong and who's right) just hardens views rather than nurturing them. So it's probably true that *I'm* the one who should leave the group, at least for awhile. And with people heading off to India shortly, it would be good timing, I guess. I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets irritated, but I'm surely the only person who would rather see people leave, so please disregard, Tep, James and all. Yes, I'll take a break. Until I change my mind tomorrow! :) Phil > You make this sound like a private list for devotees of Khun Sujin. > That is not the impression I have ever gotten from Jon & Sarah. If you wish to > criticize the tone or attitude, expressed in someone's posts, or the manner of > expresion, that's just fine, it seems to me, but I feel that it goes rather > far to "invite" someone off the list. That isn't the purvue of a mere member of > the list, is it? I seriously think that the list owner-moderators are quite > adept at handling list administration on their own, don't you? > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. Please know that I write this as a friend, not an adversary. > > > In a message dated 9/24/05 8:41:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > philco777@h... writes: > > > > > Hi Tep and James > > > > Christine has already said enough, with typical calm and > > compassion, but Phil has to get in there too, with typically less of > > the above. > > > > The obvious question is...why don't you join a differnt Yahoo > > group? Because of the patience and generosity of Sarah, Jon, Nina > > and others, you have been provided with a forum to express your > > views, and your way of expressing gratitude is this kind of > > exchange. > > > > I think there are several hundred Yahoo groups devoted to Dhamma. > > This group was founded in Thailand some 30 years ago, with a focus > > on Abhidhamma and the appreciation of present realities (I prefer > > paramattha dhammas, personally.) The group started from talks with > > A. Sujin and that is still the basis. A lot of time and energy is > > spent here discussing your views when they would simply be put aside > > during a talk with A. Sujin. (Which I guess is not necessarily a bad > > thing, but the balance is way off and a lot of people who join the > > talks in Thailand don't participate here, I would guess for that > > reason.) The moderators might scold me for saying this, but I have > > always thought so and probably always will - If you don't like A. > > Sujin's approach to Dhamma, wouldn't it be less stressful and more > > rewarding for you to go elsewhere? You are dojo yaburi guys in my > > opinion - guys who bust in to someone else's dojo to show off their > > karate skills. I have said so before and still think so, so will say > > so now and again. (Sorry Sarah!) > > > > Phil > 50609 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:12am Subject: Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... philofillet Hi again. I'm interested in > the bhavana aspect of Dhamma talk, and I think the adversarial > energy of discussion (trying to prove who's wrong and who's right) > just hardens views rather than nurturing them. correction - nurturing understanding, not views. Phil 50610 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:55am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 281 Conceit -maana (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] So long as conceit has not been eradicated there are many opportunities for its arising. It arises more often than we would think. The Book of Analysis (Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §832) gives a very revealing list of the objects on account of which pride and conceit can arise(2): * "Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority; pride of being (a regular) alms collector; pride of being not despised; pride of posture (bearing); pride of accomplishment; pride of popularity; pride of being moral; pride of jhåna; pride of dexterity; pride of being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection…" * All these objects can be a source of intoxication and conceit and we should consider them in daily life, that is why they are enumerated. Conceit can arise on account of each of the objects which are experienced through the senses. When we experience a pleasant object through one of the senses we may have conceit because of that; we may think ourselves superior in comparison with someone else who did not receive such a pleasant object. At that moment we forget that the experience of pleasant objects through the senses is only vipåka, conditioned by kamma. Thus, there is no reason to be proud of a pleasant experience. But ignorance covers up the truth, it conditions the arising of all sorts of akusala dhammas. Conceit can arise not only on account of the objects experienced through the senses, but also on account of the senses themselves. When we see someone who is blind there may be pride on account of our eyesense. *** 2) Pride is the translation of “mada”, which literally means intoxication. In §843, 844, the same list of objects is mentioned as being objects for pride (mada) and conceit. In §845 pride is defined in the same way as conceit. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50611 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: A fingersnap of the perception of impermanence christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi all > > Can someone help me identify this sutta passage, which I jotted down > in a notebook without a reference? > > "Though with a pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater > would be the fruit had he instead become a mere passing fragrance of > loving kindness, (greater than that) just a fingersnap of the > perception of impermanence." > Hello Phil, All I could turn up was two translations of the same passage, nothing as poetic as your quote (the first uses the term 'fingersnap' - the second uses the term 'fraction of a second': If a bhikkhu practises the meditation of loving-kindness, and develops it even for the short duration of a fingersnap, he is regarded as following the advice of the Buddha, acting according to his instructions. Such a bhikkhu deserves to eat the alms-food offered by the people. ( Anguttara Nikaya, Ekaka Nipata Pali paras 53, 54) ..... Don't recall where I got this from .... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 53.Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu indulging in loving kindness for the fraction of a second, does not neglect jhàna does his duties in the dispensation of the Teacher and partakes the country's alms food without a debt. How much more so if he makes much of it. 54.Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu practising loving kindness for the fraction of a second, does not neglect jhàna, does his duties in the dispensation of the Teacher and partakes the country's alms food without a debt. How much more so if he makes much of it. 55.Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu developing loving kindness for the fraction of a second, does not neglect jhàna, does his duties in the dispensation of the Teacher and partakes the country's alms food without a debt. How much more so if he makes much of it. http://tinyurl.com/bahgx metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50612 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - >... > >>I am not quite with you on this. Could you give an example of what you >>have in mind here (i.e., something that would not be covered by my >>earlier comments with which you agree). >> >>To indicate where my difficulty lies, you talk about 'substituting >>ersatz, reified, and hardened concepts for the realities actually >>observed'. Do you mean something like thinking we are seeing a tree, >>whereas in fact only visible object is being seen? In such an instance, >>I'm not sure it's correct to say the the dhamma of visible object is >>'observed' in any real sense of the word; it is simply the object of >>seeing consciousness and then of mind-door moments which think about it. > >----------------------------------------------- >Howard: > What I'm saying is the following: The actual hardness that we >experience is not the same as the hardness we think of. In fact, just moments after >the fleeting moment of felt hardness has come and gone in response to >conditions, the mind clamps down on that just passed hardness and engages in cognitive proliferation, conceptually turning it into a seemingly self-existent entity. Not only that - the mind also posits a knowing self that has observed that >alleged entity. This is reification of the object and reification of the subject. > The foregoing is the *best* I can do in explaining what I mean, Jon. >So there is little point in trying to get more out of me on this! ;-)) The explanation is fine as far as it goes, but I think a specific example would have been useful (on the face of it, I don't read you as referring to anything that isn't covered by 'lack of developed panna that sees dhammas as they truly are'). However, I respect your wish not to pursue this further. Just to recap (going back to the start of this particular thread between us), you say that the need for direct understanding of the difference between namas and rupas must be tempered because of the innate tendency to reify dhammas. It is this line of thinking that I was trying to understand. To me, panna which sees dhammas as they truly are (i.e., sees namas as namas and rupas as rupas) is not subject to any 'tendency to reify' because its nature and characteristic is to see things as they truly are. So I would see a contradiction in what you say. But we can leave it for a later occasion, if you prefer. >>Of course, as we have often remarked, there is nothing 'wrong' with >>concepts per se. The arahant still has thinking with concepts as >>object. The difference is that for him/her there is no thinking rooted >>in lobha, dosa or moha (a very big difference, of course). >>Nevertheless, all concepts are 'ersatz, are they not? And what is a >>'reified' concept? >> >> >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > I hope this has been answered by what I wrote above. Not really, but it doesn't matter, we can leave this matter too. what you wrote above seems to talk about reified *dhammas* (you say, 'the mind clamps down on that just passed hardness and engages in cognitive proliferation, conceptually turning it into a seemingly self-existent entity'). A 'reified concept' still seems a contradiction in terms to me. And all concepts are 'ersatz', surely. >>An interesting observation. Could you explain a little further your >>thinking on why panna is a necessary component of metta, dana, sila >>(abstinence from ill deeds), etc? These forms of kusala can arise in >>people of any age or persuasion, I would say. > >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > I'm afraid I cannot defend my position on this, though I believe it to >be true. I believe that any state *entirely* bereft of wisdom must be >akusala. Well, it's true of course that all akusala states are accompanied by moha (and may also be accompanied by the root of lobha or of dosa). On the kusala side, however, it is said that all kusala states are accompanied by the roots of alobha and adosa. If accompanied also by the third root of amoha (panna), then this is bhavana of one kind or another (samatha or vipassana). Otherwise (as it seems to me), there would be no way to distinguish the wholesomeness of ordinary metta from metta as the development of samatha (no need to comment on that of course, I know you are trying to limit your participation on the list). Jon 50613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /Jhana References jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi Jon, Swee, James, Steve, Htoo, Howard and others - > >The subject of jhana is fascinating and undeniably important and there >is more for us to learn from the Suttapitaka . At this point, after long >discussions with you and others, I want to admit that so far I have not >been able to effectively reject all arguments made by you and others. >But, for now let's simply drop the subject like you have suggested. :-) > Well, I didn't mean to suggest we drop the subject, but I suppose that's OK (first Howard, now you; I know just how James must feel ;-)) >>Jon: >>If the Buddha had truly discovered a new form of jhana, superior to the old, I think he would have said as much, and indicated the factors present in the new that were not in the old, and how the development of the new differed from that of the old. >> >>But I do not find anything along these lines in the materials you quote. (Those materials seem to be mainly on the theme of the necessity of jhana for enlightenment. I'm happy to continue the discussion on that topic if you're interested.) >> >>There were some materials in earlier post of yours regarding this point, but I see them in much the same way as Swee Boon does: descriptions of different aspects of jhana that are common to jhana of all times. >> >> > >Tep: As for the future, I may again raise a few questions about jhana >and continue to learn from a discussion with anyone, as long as there >is some interest on this subject. > >Thank you all for your patience with me. > > Not at all. It's a pleasure to discuss these areas. Thanks for keeping on coming back with comments and sutta quotes. Jon 50614 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... sarahprocter... Hi Phil (James, Tep, Christine, Howard & all), I wasn’t going to butt in, but have changed my mind too:) --- Philip wrote: > Of course you're right, it's an open forum. That's the nature of > the internet. But it just suddenly struck me as peculiar that if > James and Tep or anyone else have such a negative opinion of the > people they discuss with...... .... S: I wouldn’t take these comments so seriously at all – both James and Tep are the first ones to also make many complimentary remarks about DSG and the discussions here. They wouldn’t be wasting their precious time discussing the Dhamma with us if they didn’t appreciate the feedback (even if they always/often don’t agree with it at the time). As you say, there are many other lists. James is always making comments about the ‘intelligent discussion’ here or something to that effect and I‘m sure that both of them consider us all as good friends. Sometimes people react strongly to some aspect such as paramattha dhammas and then the next thing, they’re talking cheerily about the same dhammas to someone else who comes along too:-). For my part, like Htoo, I just smile or laugh and move on when I read the somewhat personal comments. I value their participation and my discussions with them a lot which really help me reflect deeper. I think we all benefit from hearing and discussing different viewpoints too (as Howard suggests) and I can assure you that if the list was only for ‘A.Sujin followers’, none of us would consider so carefully and it wouldn’t ensure any greater harmony:). So, personally, I’m always glad to hear their comments , even if they are expressed a tad strongly at times. Even then, it’s a good test of our equanimity and patience after all. As Frank or someone else suggested recently, when we feel annoyed or offended, the real problem is the dosa at the time. The bhavana surely always comes in with regard to the present object appearing. At the same time, we do all need to be mindful of different sensitivities and clearly what is innocuous to one person may be offensive to another. I’m sure we all tread on seen and unseen toes in this regard often with our humour/language/innuendo/seeming disrespect/off-topic comments or whatever. I know I often have to show restraint not to join in some of the more humourous threads:). ...... >Of course the ideal is learning from > each other, but I wonder if that really happens. I'm interested in > the bhavana aspect of Dhamma talk, and I think the adversarial > energy of discussion (trying to prove who's wrong and who's right) > just hardens views rather than nurturing them. .... S: I think it always comes back to our own cittas again – Let’s try to help share what we find useful and be as good a friend as we can, rather than minding about the reactions or effect. This is what I really learn from K.Sujin – just to do one’s best with metta, not with any expectations. ..... >So it's probably true > that *I'm* the one who should leave the group,... ... S: I’m also quite sure that you’re just about the last person James or anyone else would like to see leaving either, especially when several of the rest of the gang will be away. Of course, Jon and I'll be chipping in when we have a chance on the road and reading all messages as usual. Nina will be glad when we read out or tell her about any of your posts, Phil, I know. I remember that last year some of your questions and comments featured in the India discussions. Hope they do this time too. Perhaps you could also post some paragraphs from ‘Perfections’ or anything else you’re reading at this time in case James & Tep have withdrawal symptoms when not reading daily extracts from K.Sujin’s talks or Nina’s writings based on them:)). .... > Yes, I'll take a break. Until I change my mind tomorrow! :) .... S: Hope so – that is, hope you change your mind tomorrow!:). Think of it as a favour to keep helping KenH with those conversion figures while we’re away too!!!. Btw, I think I’ll deserve a 50% cut for James after all those obscure commentary passages I’ve been feeding him over the years:)). OOps, time to stop....you see what I mean.... Metta, Sarah ====== 50615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:16am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana More proof? buddhistmedi... Hi Nina ( Howard, and others) - Thank you for agreeing with the idea that discussion of the Buddha's sila Teachings is very important, but sila has not been as popular as other issues (like anatta) here. The Samanna-phala Sutta is a good starting point, especially when you have the translation and Co. notes of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Okay, Nina, I 'll remind you later when you have more time. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep and Howard, > these are subjects worth discussing. For now I am not able to discuss much, but, Tep, remind me later on. As to the Samanna-phala Sutta, I have the transl and Co. notes of B.B. Best to discuss one at a time, otherwise it is too much. > I agree with James that the Buddha's teaching on siila, samaadhi and paññaa is unique. I think he gave a new dimension to siila and samaadhi. > As Howard said, the Buddha's teaching of anattaa is truly unique. I think > that this permeates all his other teachings. 50616 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan - I appreciate your response to my questions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Tep, > To answer briefly your question... > > > How do you understand Right view? > > My take on it is that there is a clear distinction between ditthi > (views, opinions, conceptual formulations) and sammaditthi (viewing > rightly, direct understanding) in the suttas. > > Allegiance to conceptual formulations is ditthi, seeing reality as it > is is sammaditthi, and there is a sharp, clear, striking contrast > between the two. > Your're aboslutely right that 'ditthi' is wrong and 'samma-ditthi' is right. However, "seeing reality as it is" and "direct understanding" are not the same as samma-ditthi as I have seen in the suttas. Regards, Tep ======== 50617 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] A fingersnap of the perception of impermanence nilovg Hi Phil, Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, Ch II, § 20: Velaama sutta. Nina. op 25-09-2005 02:51 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > "Though with a pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater > would be the fruit had he instead become a mere passing fragrance of > loving kindness, (greater than that) just a fingersnap of the > perception of impermanence." 50618 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:13am Subject: Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana =. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep and James > > Christine has already said enough, with typical calm and > compassion, but Phil has to get in there too, with typically less of > the above. > > The obvious question is...why don't you join a differnt Yahoo > group? Because of the patience and generosity of Sarah, Jon, Nina > and others, you have been provided with a forum to express your > views, and your way of expressing gratitude is this kind of > exchange. > > I think there are several hundred Yahoo groups devoted to Dhamma. Okay, if you want me to go that badly I will go. I will quit DSG right after I post this message. I don't want to be anywhere where I am not wanted (even by one member) and you have made yourself very clear: you don't want me here. You don't want me here unless I agree with K. Sujin and unless I agree with all the other members- well, that isn't going to happen so I will leave. And you are right, I have many other choices. I came across the website e- sangha and it has a lovely collection of Buddhist discussion groups. I can spend my free time and energy there for now on. Bye bye. Lovingkindness, James 50619 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/25/05 5:56:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > Of course you're right, it's an open forum. That's the nature of > the internet. But it just suddenly struck me as peculiar that if > James and Tep or anyone else have such a negative opinion of the > people they discuss with, (see the descriptions of people penned by > James and echoed so happily by Tep), people who have put in long > hours into patiently explaining Dhamma to them and of A. Sujin and > her teaching, what's the point? Of course the ideal is learning from > each other, but I wonder if that really happens. I'm interested in > the bhavana aspect of Dhamma talk, and I think the adversarial > energy of discussion (trying to prove who's wrong and who's right) > just hardens views rather than nurturing them. So it's probably true > that *I'm* the one who should leave the group, at least for awhile. --------------------------------------- Howard: I *certainly* had no intention to imply that, and I hope you do *not* leave! That would be, IMO, an extreme and uncalled for response. -------------------------------------- > And with people heading off to India shortly, it would be good > timing, I guess. I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets > irritated, but I'm surely the only person who would rather see > people leave, so please disregard, Tep, James and all. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Think "middle way," Phil! ;-) If you think you over-reacted, why not just say "sorry" and be done with it? :-) Lets not make Mount Merus out of molehills! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- > > Yes, I'll take a break. Until I change my mind tomorrow! :) ----------------------------------------- Howard: Make the mind change even today, ok? :-) ----------------------------------------- > > Phil > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50620 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: The Orderliness of the Dhamma! nidive Hi Phil, > I meant to ask about "justify." I think I see now. So you are > looking for perception/understanding of anicca, for example, that > arises from/is directly conditioned by perception/understanding of > anatta? That is the meaning of "justifies?" If I had followed the > whole thread more carefully I wouldn't need to ask. Regarding the perceptions of the three universal characteristics, this sutta might interest you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-016.html "Monks, these nine perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the deathless and have the deathless as their final end. Which nine? "The perception of unattractiveness (of the body), the perception of death, the perception of the foulness in food, the perception of no- delight in any world, the perception of inconstancy, the perception of stress in inconstancy, the perception of not-self in stress, the perception of abandoning, the perception of dispassion. "These nine perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the deathless and have the deathless as their final end." ------------------------------------------------------------------ A. the perception of inconstancy B. the perception of stress in inconstancy C. the perception of not-self in stress That pretty sums up the order anicca --> dukkha --> anatta, doesn't it? Regards, Swee Boon 50621 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/25/05 7:31:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Just to recap (going back to the start of this particular thread between > us), you say that the need for direct understanding of the difference > between namas and rupas must be tempered because of the innate tendency > to reify dhammas. It is this line of thinking that I was trying to > understand. To me, panna which sees dhammas as they truly are (i.e., > sees namas as namas and rupas as rupas) is not subject to any 'tendency > to reify' because its nature and characteristic is to see things as they > truly are. So I would see a contradiction in what you say. But we can > leave it for a later occasion, if you prefer. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Distinguishing between namas and rupas, and between knowing and known, is not at all something I put down. What I take exception to is mentally *separating* them and treating them as self-existent, independent entities. ------------------------------------------- > > >>Of course, as we have often remarked, there is nothing 'wrong' with > >>concepts per se. The arahant still has thinking with concepts as > >>object. The difference is that for him/her there is no thinking rooted > >>in lobha, dosa or moha (a very big difference, of course). > >>Nevertheless, all concepts are 'ersatz, are they not? And what is a > >>'reified' concept? > >> > >> > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I hope this has been answered by what I wrote above. > > Not really, but it doesn't matter, we can leave this matter too. what > you wrote above seems to talk about reified *dhammas* (you say, 'the > mind clamps down on that just passed hardness and engages in cognitive > proliferation, conceptually turning it into a seemingly self-existent > entity'). A 'reified concept' still seems a contradiction in terms to > me. And all concepts are 'ersatz', surely. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a matter of degree of genuine understanding or the opposite. It is a matter of to what degree we see through our concepts or are enslaved by them. --------------------------------------------- > > >>An interesting observation. Could you explain a little further your > >>thinking on why panna is a necessary component of metta, dana, sila > >>(abstinence from ill deeds), etc? These forms of kusala can arise in > >>people of any age or persuasion, I would say. > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I'm afraid I cannot defend my position on this, though I believe it to > >be true. I believe that any state *entirely* bereft of wisdom must be > >akusala. > > Well, it's true of course that all akusala states are accompanied by > moha (and may also be accompanied by the root of lobha or of dosa). > > On the kusala side, however, it is said that all kusala states are > accompanied by the roots of alobha and adosa. If accompanied also by > the third root of amoha (panna), then this is bhavana of one kind or > another (samatha or vipassana). Otherwise (as it seems to me), there > would be no way to distinguish the wholesomeness of ordinary metta from > metta as the development of samatha (no need to comment on that of > course, I know you are trying to limit your participation on the list). > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50622 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:41am Subject: Naughty Tep and james! / A Pledge buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and all - There are good things I have gained from being put under the "naughty" spot light by Chris and Phil: it makes me examine what I have written (that caused Chris and Phil irritation) and the real motive behind it; it makes me become more aware of the feelings of other people; and lastly it makes me evaluate the worth of being a DSG member (should I "get the hell out of there", so to speak?). Sarah: I wouldn't take these comments so seriously at all – both James and Tep are the first ones to also make many complimentary remarks about DSG and the discussions here. They wouldn't be wasting their precious time discussing the Dhamma with us if they didn't appreciate the feedback (even if they always/often don't agree with it at the time). Tep: Thank you, Sarah, for being generous with your kind words about my contribution as a DSG member. S: I think we all benefit from hearing and discussing different viewpoints too (as Howard suggests) and I can assure you that if the list was only for `A.Sujin followers', none of us would consider so carefully and it wouldn't ensure any greater harmony:). Tep: Of course, we freely volunteer our time to share thoughts and views (both right and wrong) with each other because we see continued mutual dhamma benefits based on mutual respect. In this environment the whole group benefits most when at least half of the members do not belong to the exclusive "Khun Sujin Club". I am relieved to be reassured that you are not that narrow minded. S: At the same time, we do all need to be mindful of different sensitivities and clearly what is innocuous to one person may be offensive to another. I'm sure we all tread on seen and unseen toes in this regard often with our humour/language/innuendo/seeming disrespect/off-topic comments or whatever. Tep: You have my solemn pledge that I will not step on anyone's toes again! By the way, do those toes belong to some "selves"? What about the irritation when some toes were stepped on? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil (James, Tep, Christine, Howard & all), > > I wasn't going to butt in, but have changed my mind too:) > > --- Philip wrote: > > Of course you're right, it's an open forum. That's the nature of > > the internet. But it just suddenly struck me as peculiar that if > > James and Tep or anyone else have such a negative opinion of > > the people they discuss with...... > .... 50623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. nilovg Hi Jon and Howard, I just butt in. I think there can be paññaa with kusala citta that is not bhaavanaa, but that knows cause and result, it can be even some understanding of kamma and vipaaka. Howard had the feeling that kusala without paññaa is not likely. I have been reflecting on this, and I thought of sati that accompanies each kusala. Sati is a kind of knowing, it knows: this is beneficial, this is not. This is also explained in the Questions of King Milinda, II, 1, 12, under sati: the adviser to the King says: Thus kusala citta without paññaa is anyway accompanied by sati, it could not arise without sati that is like an adviser. This could perhaps solve the dilemma. But Howard, do not answer, I understand you do not like to be involved in debates. Nina. op 25-09-2005 13:31 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > On the kusala side, however, it is said that all kusala states are > accompanied by the roots of alobha and adosa. If accompanied also by > the third root of amoha (panna), then this is bhavana of one kind or > another (samatha or vipassana). Otherwise (as it seems to me), there > would be no way to distinguish the wholesomeness of ordinary metta from > metta as the development of samatha (no need to comment on that of > course, I know you are trying to limit your participation on the list). 50624 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:47am Subject: Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana =. buddhistmedi... Dear James - I was surprised ! > James: > Okay, if you want me to go that badly I will go. I will quit DSG > right after I post this message. I don't want to be anywhere where > I am not wanted (even by one member) and you have made >yourself very clear: you don't want me here. You don't want me >here unless I agree with K. Sujin and unless I agree with all the other >members- well, that isn't going to happen so I will leave. Tep: You were not serious, were you? Warm regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" 50625 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 9/25/05 9:14:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Okay, if you want me to go that badly I will go. I will quit DSG > right after I post this message. I don't want to be anywhere where > I am not wanted (even by one member) and you have made yourself very > clear: you don't want me here. You don't want me here unless I > agree with K. Sujin and unless I agree with all the other members- > well, that isn't going to happen so I will leave. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: James! You've gotta be kidding!! There will *always* be someone who doesn't find one to his/her liking! It is absurd to permit one's actions to be dictated by others. Criticism, friendly or not, is worth considering, I think, because it is always good to consider how well we are "handling things", but to leave because of one person's or even several persons' opinions is inappropriate in my opinion. Please consider Sarah's recent friendly, peace-making post. --------------------------------------- And you are > > right, I have many other choices. I came across the website e- > sangha and it has a lovely collection of Buddhist discussion > groups. I can spend my free time and energy there for now on. Bye > bye. -------------------------------------- Howard: James, if you are still subscribed, please continue to be. If not, please resubscribe immediately. :-) ---------------------------------------- > > Lovingkindness, > James > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50626 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: Naughty Tep and james! / A Pledge christine_fo... Hello Tep, I'm impressed! I think we have all been examining our mental states, and our words. It's good for the practice to see what is actually arising - not what we 'wish' was arising. Anger, irritation and hurt feelings are just 'flying the flag of the so-o-o important self' ... or so some admirable friends once told me, though I certainly didn't like hearing it at that time. Obviously so easy to forget, as well. :-) There is only one thing to do ... begin again. Is there irritation arising now? :-) much metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Sarah and all - > > There are good things I have gained from being put under > the "naughty" spot light by Chris and Phil: it makes me examine what I > have written (that caused Chris and Phil irritation) and the real motive > behind it; it makes me become more aware of the feelings of other > people; and lastly it makes me evaluate the worth of being a DSG > member (should I "get the hell out of there", so to speak?). > > Sarah: I wouldn't take these comments so seriously at all – both James > and Tep are the first ones to also make many complimentary remarks > about DSG and the discussions here. They wouldn't be wasting their > precious time discussing the Dhamma with us if they didn't appreciate > the feedback (even if they always/often don't agree with it at the time). > > Tep: Thank you, Sarah, for being generous with your kind words about > my contribution as a DSG member. > > S: I think we all benefit from hearing and discussing different viewpoints > too (as Howard suggests) and I can assure you that if the list was only > for `A.Sujin followers', none of us would consider so carefully and it > wouldn't ensure any greater harmony:). > > Tep: Of course, we freely volunteer our time to share thoughts and > views (both right and wrong) with each other because we see > continued mutual dhamma benefits based on mutual respect. In this > environment the whole group benefits most when at least half of the > members do not belong to the exclusive "Khun Sujin Club". I am > relieved to be reassured that you are not that narrow minded. > > S: At the same time, we do all need to be mindful of different sensitivities > and clearly what is innocuous to one person may be offensive to > another. I'm sure we all tread on seen and unseen toes in this regard > often with our humour/language/innuendo/seeming disrespect/off- topic > comments or whatever. > > Tep: You have my solemn pledge that I will not step on anyone's toes > again! By the way, do those toes belong to some "selves"? What > about the irritation when some toes were stepped on? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Phil (James, Tep, Christine, Howard & all), > > > > I wasn't going to butt in, but have changed my mind too:) > > > > --- Philip wrote: > > > Of course you're right, it's an open forum. That's the nature of > > > the internet. But it just suddenly struck me as peculiar that if > > > James and Tep or anyone else have such a negative opinion of > > > the people they discuss with...... > > .... 50627 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:01am Subject: James , pls reconsider!(was:Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana =.) sarahprocter... Dear James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Okay, if you want me to go that badly I will go. I will quit DSG > right after I post this message. I don't want to be anywhere where > I am not wanted (even by one member) and you have made yourself very > clear: you don't want me here. You don't want me here unless I > agree with K. Sujin and unless I agree with all the other members- > well, that isn't going to happen so I will leave. .... S: Please reconsider. I understand how you feel, but I'll let Phil speak for himself if he wishes. Meanwhile I'd like to say that Jon and I would really like you to continue as usual here. We certainly don't ask or expect you or anyone else to agree with K.Sujin or anyone else or any topic. As Howard said, it is not a K.Sujin devotee list at all, as far as we're concerned. It's a list for friends like yourself who are interested in discussing the Dhamma together. In this regard, I know both of us and many others have enjoyed your warm and lively discussions with Phil on important aspects of the Dhamma. We hope to read more of them. Metta, Sarah ========= 50628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not so naughty Tep and James! nilovg Hi James, Lodewijk asked me to tell you that he regrets it that you leave the list. He said, it is a pity, James is intelligent. We find that one can look through the personal, and just consider the Dhamma contained in your words. I appreciate your study of suttas. Nina and Lodewijk. op 25-09-2005 15:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Dear James - > > I was surprised ! 50629 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama and rupa distinguishable. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/25/05 9:43:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Thus kusala citta without paññaa is > anyway accompanied by sati, it could not arise without sati that is like an > adviser. > This could perhaps solve the dilemma. But Howard, do not answer, I > understand you do not like to be involved in debates. > ==================== Thanks -that's ok. I follow what you are saying here. The mindfulness can be considered a sort of proto-wisdom, a predecessor to pa~n~na or a stepped-down version of it. And, yes, such a perspective could serve to harmonize views on this issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 50630 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:11am Subject: Lesson from a lurker robmoult Hi All, Every Sunday morning, I teach an Abhidhamma class for beginners at the local temple. This morning, I arrived a bit early at the temple. As I passed through the temple gates, I asked myself, "Should I find myself a corner to sit and prepare for my class or should I first go to the shrine hall to pay respect to the Buddha? I think that I will go to the shrine hall. It is the proper thing to do and it may be a condition to meet somebody as I cross the compound from the gate to the shrine hall." As I walked across the compound, I was stopped by a gentleman who I recognized but with whom I had never spoken. He said, "Hi Brother Rob, you are active on Dhamma Study Group, aren't you?" It turns out that he was one of what we affectionately call "lurkers" here on DSG; the vast majority of DSG members who rarely if ever post. He told me about how much he enjoyed and appreciated the posts of the various DSG members and he especially mentioned Nina, Rob K, Htoo and Phil. He also mentioned that he noticed that I had not been posting for a few months. I have been thinking about this incident all day. As we wade along the stream of existence, we inevitably create ripples. These ripples touch other people both known and unknown to us. Metta, Rob M :-) 50631 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Mundane' (was, Walking Meditation ...) /The End buddhistmedi... Hi Jon (and Sarah) - It has been a while. > >Tep: But, for now let's simply drop the subject like you have > > suggested. :-) > > > Jon: > Well, I didn't mean to suggest we drop the subject, but I suppose >that's OK (first Howard, now you; I know just how James must >feel ;-)) > (snipped) ---------------------------------- >Jon: > Not at all. It's a pleasure to discuss these areas. Thanks for keeping > on coming back with comments and sutta quotes. > Tep: I am glad that we finally have a true "The End" for this inconclusive thread on Jhana. However, Jon, it has never been my intention to stop discussing the Dhamma with you or Sarah or Nina (and the list goes on). My appetite for Dhamma discussion has been the same (no indigestion), although lately I was labeled by Phil as the nasty (naughty) person with KungFu/Karate deadly spirit, and was asked by Chris and Phil to leave this group. :-)) With sincere appreciation, Tep ======== 50632 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Naughty Tep and james! / A Pledge buddhistmedi... Hi Chris (and Srah and James) - I am glad to see your email again. > Chris: > I'm impressed! I think we have all been examining our mental states, > and our words. It's good for the practice to see what is actually > arising - not what we 'wish' was arising. Anger, irritation and > hurt feelings are just 'flying the flag of the so-o-o important > self' ... or so some admirable friends once told me, though I > certainly didn't like hearing it at that time. Obviously so easy to > forget, as well. :-) There is only one thing to do ... begin > again. Is there irritation arising now? :-) > > Tep: There was a little irritation, yes, when two other persons told me "You don't belong here". Self examination is not possible when there is no self to examine itself. But examination of an arising dhamma with no attachment is possible, and I have done that. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to stop and reflect, to say and do better. Sincerely, Tep ==== 50633 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:51am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 Dear Tep, So, what have you seen in the suttas? Dan > Your're aboslutely right that 'ditthi' is wrong and 'samma-ditthi' is right. > However, "seeing reality as it is" and "direct understanding" are not the > same as samma-ditthi as I have seen in the suttas. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======== 50634 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. , The suttas are the Buddha's words. So I am glad to know that you have some interest in them. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Tep, > So, what have you seen in the suttas? > Tep: The following is what I have found. Samma-ditthi ------------------- "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view. [Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8: Magga-vibhanga Sutta] "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. ...One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. [MN 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta] Right Understanding ------------------------------ Tep: There is a term like full understanding(parrinna), but there is no such a thing like the "right understanding" : I cannot find it from the suttas. The words "clear understanding", on the other hand, is Bhikkhu Bodhi's : "The right view of the Four Noble Truths develops in two stages. The first is called the right view that accords with the truths (saccanulomika samma ditthi); the second, the right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha samma ditthi). To acquire the right view that accords with the truths requires a clear understanding of their meaning and significance in our lives". Knowing and Seeing Things the Way they Really Are: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tep: This is 'yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana' which is one insight knowledge in the 18 Principal Insights. PTS: 'yathabhutan pajanati' he knows as an absolute truth or in reality. "In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana). Hence, to know things as they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain insight into their qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all- embracing identification with the All, but towards disengagement and detachment, release from the All. The cultivation of wisdom in no way "undermines" concrete phenomena by reducing them to appearances, nor does it treat them as windows opening to some fundamental ground. Instead it investigates and discerns, in order to understand things as they are: "And what does one understand as it really is? One understands: Such is form, such its arising and passing away. Such is feeling... perception... formations... consciousness, such its arising and passing away." "When one sees, 'All formations are impermanent, all are suffering, everything is not self,' one turns away from suffering: this is the path to purity." [Dhamma and Non-duality by Bhikkhu Bodhi] Tep: There are several suttas that teaches 'yatha-bhuta-nana- dassana' , for example SN XII.23 Upanisa Sutta. "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' "The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way. The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Release(vimutti). [endquote] Tep: I hope the above "presentation" is enough to wet your appetite, and you may read the suttas for more detail. Regards, Tep ======= 50635 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16am Subject: Re: A fingersnap of the perception of impermanence/ then 'not-self' buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Thanks to Nina, I have found another sutta that says clearly that the perception of not-self (annata-sanna) is made firm after contemplation of impermanence is first developed. In addition, the mindfulness of breathing is recommended as one of the nine prerequisites for developing the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (wings to self-awakening). Anguttara Nikaya IX.1, Sambodhi Sutta :Self-awakening http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutta ra/an09-001.html Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, Ch II, § 20: Velaama sutta. > Nina. > op 25-09-2005 02:51 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: > > > > > "Though with a pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater > > would be the fruit had he instead become a mere passing fragrance of > > loving kindness, (greater than that) just a fingersnap of the > > perception of impermanence." 50636 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:20am Subject: Re: A fingersnap of the perception of impermanence/ then 'not-self' buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Please correct one typo for me. Thanks. annata-sanna should be replaced by 'anatta-sanna'. Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all - > > Thanks to Nina, I have found another sutta that says clearly that the > perception of not-self (annata-sanna) is made firm after contemplation of impermanence is first developed. In addition, the mindfulness of > 50637 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! nilovg Hi Phil, See what Sarah said. I need not say much after I told you Lodewijk'a appreciating words also off line, Nina. op 25-09-2005 14:03 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > Nina > will be glad when we read out or tell her about any of your posts, Phil, I > know. I remember that last year some of your questions and comments > featured in the India discussions. Hope they do this time too. 50638 From: nina Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:10am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, ***** Nina. 50639 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:45am Subject: I'm Back buddhatrue Hi All and Phil, Okay, I re-joined DSG. I got an e-mail from a member who pointed out that Phil is under a lot of stress lately and that my quitting could do him more harm than good. I believe that this is quite possible so I have rejoined. I don't wish to cause Phil any harm, but I also don't appreciate his harrassment lately and so thought I should quit. After all, this was not a snap decision based on his last post, I have been receiving numerous posts from Phil where he criticizes my posting style and motivations. I even told him straight out not to read my posts if he doesn't like them. Him suggesting that I leave the group was the final straw. However, I have reconsidered and I will give it a go for a while more. I just don't want to have to defend myself all the time. I hope you all understand and don't think I am just being a drama queen! ;-)) Metta, James ps. Phil, I hope that you haven't quit either. We can work it out, Buddy. 50640 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhatrue Hi Christine (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Howard,all, > > I quite agree with your understanding. > > A couple of points: The Subha Sutta is possibly of little > importance in the tradition. James: Granted, the Subha Sutta is not the most important sutta in the Canon (it was after the Buddha's parinibbana), but I don't think it should be entirely dismissed. It consists of a dialogue between > Ananda and a brahmin whose name means 'man of Tudi'. The translator > Maurice Walshe says about this sutta 'One may wonder slightly why > this is included as a separate Sutta, consisting as it does of > little more than the corresponding passages in DN2. But the > repetitiveness was never regarded by the early redactors of the > Canon as a bar to inclusion, and this was no doubt independently > preserved as an account of Suha's conversion.' James: It is formulaic but the incident did happen. And the Brahmin was familiar with the other ascetics and Brahmins in India to make an accurate assessment. > > I think in the quote it doesn't say that the serenity meditation > taught by other contemplatives was "wrong" - only that it was 'left > incomplete'. I think the quote could be emphasised this way: > "'It is wonderful, Reverend Andanda, it is marvellous! This division > of Ariyan concentration IS PERFECTLY FULFILLED, NOT LEFT INCOMPLETE. > And I do not see this division of ariyan concentration FULFILLED > thus anywhere among the ascetics and brahmins of other schools.'" James: Well, to my way of thinking, "left incomplete" is the same as "wrong". We have been arguing over the idea that the former teachers of the Buddha had achieved all four jhanas. Now, if two former teachers of the Buddha had achieved all four jhanas, and supposedly many contemplatives in India were doing the same thing, how could their practice be incomplete? Obviously they weren't achieving all four jhanas, they were practicing some other type of mental yoga. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi says in MN p.38- > "APPROACHES TO MEDITATION" > > 'The methods of meditation taught by the Buddha in the Pali Canon > fall into two broad systems. One is the development of serenity > (samatha), which aims at concentration (samaadhi; the other is the > development of insight (vipassanaa), which aims at understanding or > wisdom (pa~n~naa). In the Buddha's system of mental training the > role of serenity is subordinated to that of insight because the > latter is the crucial instrument needed to uproot the ignorance at > the bottom of samsaaric bondage. The attainments possible through > serenity meditation were known to Indian contemplatives long before > the advent of the Buddha. The Buddha himself mastered the two > highest stages under his early teachers but found that they only led > to higher planes of rebirth, not to genuine enlightenment. (MN. 26 > 15-16). However, because the unification of mind induced by the > practice of concentration contributes to clear understanding, the > Buddha incorporated the techniques of serenity meditation and the > resulting levels of absorption into his own sysetem, treating them > as a foundation and preparation for insight and as a "pleasant > abiding here and now".' James: I don't blame B. Bodhi for writing this. I thought the same thing for a long time also, but I never quite felt comfortable with it. I thought to myself two things: 1. If the Buddha had achieved the four jhanas with his former teachers, why didn't he become enlightened then? After all, he credits the four jhanas to his enlightenment. 2. If the Buddha had achieved the four jhanas with his former teachers, why did he think back to when he was a child? Why wouldn't he just remember what he had practiced with his former teachers? Christine, it just doesn't match up. Something is askew. Then, on closer examination, I realized that what I had been reading about the Buddha previously practicing the jhanas was incorrect. He had originated the practice of the four jhanas. But, I have to admit, all of the evidence either way is circumstantial. > > metta and peace, > Chris Metta, James ps. I stand for Right Speech too- I just keep falling! ;-)) 50641 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:56pm Subject: Re: The Orderliness of the Dhamma! philofillet Hi Swee > the perception of inconstancy, the perception of > stress in inconstancy, the perception of not-self in stress, the > perception of abandoning, the perception of dispassion. > > "These nine perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, > of great benefit. They gain a footing in the deathless and have the > deathless as their final end." > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > A. the perception of inconstancy > B. the perception of stress in inconstancy > C. the perception of not-self in stress > > That pretty sums up the order anicca --> dukkha --> anatta, doesn't > it? I guess it does in this sutta, by the order of being mentnionned. In other sutta the "justifying" is much clearer, of course. From what I've seen in my shallow study, this is the predominant order of teaching in Samyutta Nikaya, certainly, but there is such a richness - in many suttas the Buddha emphasizes, anatta, or dukkha, sometimes exclusively. While I'm away and reviewing SN, I'll continue to think about this. Thanks again for having set up up such a clear framework for investigation. Phil 50642 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:15pm Subject: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... philofillet Hi Sarah and all A post just flew away while I was writing. Assuming that it'll be posted, I'll continue where I was.. ...sometimes I'm even aware that a post I'm writing might cause irritation to someone, but send it anyways. I just find these days that when I listen when I'm not planning to be posting, the listening is much more relaxed, the mind doesn't grasp as much, and I think understanding is developed in a more natural way, and there is not that adversarial feeling that I personally think doesn't add to bhavana. On the other hand, of course, discussing with people we disagree with is a great way to develop patience, metta and so on, and so is of value for bhavana. But for me and my accumulations, and with a deadline for a writing contest approaching, time to take a break. In case the other post doesn't reach the forum, the gist was that the problem is mine - if there is so much aversion to others' posts and so much greed about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a break. Will still be listening, reading, reflecting (maybe) a lot, so not to worry. Phil 50643 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:07pm Subject: Rob M's problem robmoult Hi All, I have a problem that I would like your help on. When I listen to a dhamma talk or read a dhamma book, I have started to classify the ideas. For example, when hearing or reading an idea, I tend to classify the idea according to: - This idea was articulated in the Suttas (lately, I have been reading a book which identifies Suttas as "early" or "late") - This idea was first articulated in the Abhidhamma texts (sometimes, I even break out the Kathavatthu as it is a later text) - This idea was first recorded by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhi Magga or in the commentaries - This idea was first articulated by Acaria Anuruddha in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha - This idea was first articulated by Ledi Sayadaw / Mahasi Sayadaw / modern writer I attach more or less value to an idea depending on when it was first articulated. It becomes a real problem when a speaker / author makes an incorrect claim about the genesis of an idea. For example, I recently heard a very popular dhamma speaker attribute the seventeen thought-moment citta process to the Buddha. Once a speaker / author makes a mistake like this, they hurt their credibility in my eyes and this causes me to put even more focus on potential mistakes in their talk / text. When I was less scholarly, I listed to Dhamma talks with joy. Now I find that mixed with a critical mind. Any suggestions to help me. Metta, Rob M :-) 50644 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:14pm Subject: Re: What does it take ? kenhowardau Dear Venerable Samahita, You wrote: ----------------------------- > T asks: >> P.S. Do whatever it takes whereto kenhowardau responds: >I take that to mean that the dhammas, panna (understanding) >and sati (mindfulness) should do whatever it takes... Not bad at all !!, -------------------------------- Thank you, I am glad you approve. --------------------------------------------------- V.S: > yet let us not forget calm & concentration opening & enabling the penetration level of understanding!! ---------------------------------------------------- Needless to say, I can remember samadhi (calm & concentration) only as well as I have understood it. As I have just been reading (in the Cambodia talks), mental objects need to be known in mental objects. So, in this case, samadhi must be known in the mental object, samadhi. If it is known in (for example) the idea of a person who has samadhi, then it is not properly understood. ---------------------- V.S: > As emphasized ad infinitum before: Sila => Samadhi => Panna ---------------------- Ye, but that needs further explanation, does it not? We all know of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., who are kind-hearted and who engage in quiet, secluded contemplation. But their sila and samadhi will never lead to panna (pertaining to the Middle Way), will it? Isn't it true that all forms of wholesome activity need to be accompanied by panna? When we are keeping sila, for example, we need to understand (at least conceptually) that there are only conditioned dhammas - performing the functions of sila. Respectfully, Ken H 50645 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:25pm Subject: Re: Rob M's problem rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a problem that I would like your help on. > > > It becomes a real problem when a speaker / author makes an incorrect > claim about the genesis of an idea. For example, I recently heard a > very popular dhamma speaker attribute the seventeen thought-moment > citta process to the Buddha. Once a speaker / author makes a mistake > like this, they hurt their credibility in my eyes and this causes me > to put even more focus on potential mistakes in their talk / text. > > _____ Dear Robm, Do you mean you don't think it was the Buddha's wisdom that knew in detail about the citta process. Perhaps your concern reflects your lack of saddha and insight into this matter? Robertk 50646 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M's problem AND reply to PHIL! sarahprocter... Hi RobM (Lurker friend & Phil), We have to thank your lurker friend you bumped into for inspiring you to write again. (Lurker friend, we’d love to hear from you as well....thanks for introducing yourself to Rob M.) I’d like to make a few comments in note form regarding your good question: --- robmoult wrote: > I attach more or less value to an idea depending on when it was first > articulated. > > It becomes a real problem when a speaker / author makes an incorrect > claim about the genesis of an idea. For example, I recently heard a > very popular dhamma speaker attribute the seventeen thought-moment > citta process to the Buddha. Once a speaker / author makes a mistake > like this, they hurt their credibility in my eyes and this causes me > to put even more focus on potential mistakes in their talk / text. > > When I was less scholarly, I listed to Dhamma talks with joy. Now I > find that mixed with a critical mind. ..... S: I think there are two separate issues here. The first we’ve discussed at length before. Briefly: 1.On the factual point above, there can be lots of discussion/debate, but I don’t personally think the speaker made a mistake. As we read in the Atthasalini, that ‘The Abhidhamma is not the province of others; it is the province of the Buddhas only. Such a discourse as the Abhidhamma can be taught by them only’. Elsewhere, references to that which is in conformity with the Buddha’s teachings and elaborated on by the Great Disciples is known as ‘Buddha-vacana’ or word of the Buddha and so on. We’ve been over all these points – I know you have misgivings, it’s OK. Many don’t accept the Buddha taught a ‘Tipitaka’. Back to U.P. ‘Abhidhamma –origins’:). 2.I think that the more understanding there is of dhammas, the more confidence we may have that no one but a Buddha could have taught the Abhidhamma. 3.In the end, it doesn’t matter where anything is said or by whom. We’re not attempting to build up book knowledge but to develop a real understanding of paramattha dhammas now as we speak. When we read or hear about 17 cittas, it can help condition more understanding of conditioned dhammas, mere elements which are anatta. If instead it’t just a condition for confusion or annoyance, that’s OK too – also dhammas which can be known when they arise. ***** 4.Now the point (which reminds me of Phil’s comment too) re listening/reading with joy vs listening/reading with a critical mind/with aversion or any other states. Isn’t the problem really the one of attachment to oneself again? We’d like to have wholesome joy or other noble states arising and don’t wish to experience dosa or too much ‘critical thinking’or other negative states. So in subtle (or not so subtle) ways, we try to arrange our lives so that there will be conditions for more of the joy and find it a problem if it doesn’t arise. I think this is like the ‘meditatation retreat’ discussions where one believes one’s actions will lead to more sati, panna and other noble qualities and will lead to less dosa and other bad qualities. But really, isn’t one just developing more attachment to the self? The self which has more calm,joy and wisdom and less annoyance or critical thinking? On one of the tapes which we’ve been editing (available soon for download), Mike makes a really good comment about how ‘It’s all about ME’ when asked about his recent reflections in Thailand. Isn’t this the truth for most of us, much more of the time than we’d care to admit? There’s also some discussion which is similar to Phil’s about how there is often more agitation or dosa when writing letters or explainging dhamma compared to when one’s quietly reading/listening/reflecting. K.Sujin’s response to this is to ask whether it(such reflection) is satipatthana. In other words, as soon as we are concerned about times and places for more or less joy vs more or less dosa, for example, it shows the clinging to self, rather than the awareness of dhammas which have been conditioned already. It has to be the path of detachment and this means not minding at all what is conditioned at this very moment, whether writing or reading quietly, working or relaxing at home, or .....having joy or irritation. Otherwise, aren’t we talking about anatta and detachment, but still thinking another dhamma now would be more suitable for bhavana? Phi, best wishes for your writing contest and I perfectly understand about dead-lines , needing a break and so on. We’ll all be glad to hear from you anytime, but in your own time or rather, just as conditions dictate:). Many thanks for all your wonderful posts in recent weeks/months and for all your help in encouraging and inspiring friends here like the Lurker friend, RobM bumped into:). Metta, Sarah p.Phil, no sign of the post which flew away....:-/ Also- P:> ...sometimes I'm even aware that a post I'm writing might cause > irritation to someone, but send it anyways. ... S: yes, and sometimes it's with kusala cittas that we write, knowing this, thinking it will be beneficial for someone to hear in spite of the irritation likely to arise initially. If there's confidence in kusala, we mind less about whether such comments are appreciated or not. ========= 50647 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma... Hmm... This is the first answer I see as "No". And you are right.... The answer is real big NO. Ariyas will never says they are ariyas. Ariyas follow the vehicle of Arahants or in simple term, the uses "The path of Wisdom". This is different from the vehicle of Boddisatta which lead one to become a SammaSamBuddha ("The Path of Compasion".) One who took the vehicle of Arahants or wisdom, would know that the result of one's receiving is the creation of one's own kamma. This is call Kamma-Vipaka. For example, An arahant if he saw someone were run down by a car and died, he would most probably think that is his own kamma. He would not have any compasion or feel sorry for that dead person or his family. So why would an ariyas stand up and tell the world that he is an ariyas and trying to teach ?? The answer will be a NO. The only reason why arahants teaches is if they were instructed by their teacher, the Buddha. Sainthood is like a electric fan which the electricity has been switch off. The fan will still turn awhile before it finally stop. A sotapan still has a max of 7 human life and a Arahant basically has only 7 days from the moment he attain Arahantship. Unless the arahant instructed to teach and he did teach, this action will generate kusala kamma to sustain him more than 7 days until his body expire. Other reason why Ariyas won't tell the world or any one is that, they cut wrong views. Sotapan fully cut wrong views. If there is no wrong views, where can there be a self to admit he is a ariyas. All ariyas has experience the 16 Nana and have no wrong view... not even the view of selfhood. They only see Anata. So again, the answer is NO. If someone came to tell you that he is an Ariyas, you can tell him that, "you can go to hell". In fact, Hell is the results of that action. This goes the same for Jhanna as well. So don't simply believe anyone who tell you that he is an ariyas or he has attain Jhanna. To answer the question whether one will know who is ariyas and who is not ?? Basically for us lay people, we won't be able differenciate for sure. I believe the rule of thumb is the ability to see the same level or lower. So a sotapan can know who is a sotapan. And an Arahant can know who is a Arahants and who else are the Ariyas (1st, 2nd, 3rd sainthood and arahants). The problem is we, lay people can only see the stage of lay people. So what ever action we do to the Ariyas (good or bad), the results will be very heavy and some will be immediate. It is import to be nice to all.... cause we lay people don't know who are the ariyas and who are not. Metta mr39515 --- Philip wrote: > > Hi Dan and all > > > > Would an ariyan engage in gratuitous > self-promotion? Would you expect > > an ariyan to stand on a public stage and announce > his/her > nobleness: "I > > have an announcement to make. I am an ariyan. > Listen to what I say..." > > > No, of course not. And anyone who did would be > exposed as a fraud, at > the worst, or seriously deluded, at best. > But in this day and age, to be expected. The > Buddha's teaching will > disappear from this world, as he predicted. > > Another question - could an ariyan recognize the > ariyan attainment > of another based on the latter's statement on the > internet? <...> 50648 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:49pm Subject: Released by Disgust ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Disgust evaporates Greed: Absence of Greed is Freedom! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, for a clansman who has gone forth out of faith in my Teaching, to do this, is in accordance with this supreme Dhamma: He should dwell contemplating the impermanence, inherent in any form... He should dwell contemplating the suffering, inherent in any form... He should dwell contemplating the impersonality, inherent in any form... He should dwell absorbed in disgust towards any form, towards feeling... towards perception, mental constructions, & towards any consciousness... One who dwells immersed in revulsion towards any form, towards feeling, towards perception, any mental construction, & towards any consciousness, fully understands all forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, & consciousnesses. One who fully understands forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, and consciousness is freed from forms, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, and consciousness! I tell you: He is freed from birth, ageing, and death !!! Freed from sorrow, weeping, pain, discontent, & desperate despair !!! I say: He is freed from all Suffering... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:146-9 III 179-80 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 50649 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M's problem TGrand458@... Hi Rob M In a message dated 9/25/2005 7:08:04 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, rob.moult@... writes: It becomes a real problem when a speaker / author makes an incorrect claim about the genesis of an idea. For example, I recently heard a very popular dhamma speaker attribute the seventeen thought-moment citta process to the Buddha. Once a speaker / author makes a mistake like this, they hurt their credibility in my eyes and this causes me to put even more focus on potential mistakes in their talk / text. When I was less scholarly, I listed to Dhamma talks with joy. Now I find that mixed with a critical mind. Any suggestions to help me. Metta, Rob M :-) IMO Rob, your approach of critical examination is not only not a problem, but it is a necessary quality of a truth investigator. You don't need help. Those who haphazardly claim the Buddha taught this or that based on conjecture and faith are doing themselves and Buddhism a disservice IMO. There is no limit to the mis-representations that can be attributed to the Buddha once you go down that road. Pretty soon "Dragon Worlds" are responsible for the preservation of the true teachings of the Buddha and you end up with things like chanting for your desires to come true as Buddhism. I like your approach far better! TG 50650 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 282 Conceit -maana (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] One may be proud because of one’s birth, because of the family into which one is born. Or conceit may arise on account of the race one belongs to, on account of one’s nationality or the colour of one’s skin. Some people may find the colour of their skin better that the colour of someone else’s skin. That is conceit. Conceit may also arise because of beauty, possessions, rank or work. Or because of one’s skills, knowledge, education or wisdom. There may be the wish to “advertise” oneself because of these things. We like to be honoured and praised and the worst thing which can happen to us is to be forgotten, to be overlooked. We think of ourselves as “somebody” and we do not want to be treated as “nobody”. Our actions, speech and thoughts are often motivated by an idea of competition; we may not want other people to be better than we are, even with regard to kusala and right understanding. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50651 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What does it take ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend kenhowardau who wrote: >Isn't it true that all forms of wholesome activity need to be accompanied by panna? Indeed, Understanding is the prime. >We all know of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., who are kind-hearted >and who engage in quiet, secluded contemplation. But their sila and >samadhi will never lead to panna (pertaining to the Middle Way), will it? Mundane undertanding, but not supramundane Noble Understanding are accessible to all who keep the precepts also from other faiths... : - ] 50652 From: Tom Rathborne Date: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? tommer_w Greetings Ken, On Sun, Sep 25, 2005 at 12:13:30AM -0000, kenhowardau wrote: > Welcome to DSG, I am glad you persevered. Thanks, now we're both glad. > T: > Anyway -- curiously, I clicked on 'Context of this sutta', and > read: > > "Instructions to a generous lay person: Generosity is good, but there > is still more to be done. An even greater happiness awaits if you > practice meditation to attain an internal state of seclusion and > rapture." > > which says nothing about physical seclusion. Can anyone offer an > alternate translation or perhaps the Pali? > -------------------- > Most (not all) of our Pali experts are busy at the moment - preparing > for a trip to India among other things. What an excellent dhamma to be busy at. > Have you noticed the "Useful Posts" folder in our Files section? I hadn't noticed that. Thank you for pointing it out and for your research. > I had a quick look at the latest three under the heading "Seclusion" > and noticed that 46801 (posted by Ven. Samahita) discusses internal > seclusion. 46741, by Nina, discuses external seclusion, and 46632, > by Sarah, discusses both. They are well worth reading. 46801 contains a great description of the seclusion of liberation. 46741 is as I was thinking, about anapanasati, mindfulness of breathing: "Therefore, for the yogavacara who does not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses." > -------------------------------- > T: > It seems to me that it's all about spiritual seclusion, getting > out of all of the entanglements of everyday social life so that there > are no thoughts to pop up in the middle of your meditation. > ---------------------------------- > Vipassana (specifically satipatthana) can be practised at any time > of the day, regardless of what we may be doing. It is conditioned by > knowledge of the Buddha's teaching, not by any formal activity > (e.g., sitting in a quiet place). Indeed, I have reviewed the Maha-satipatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html and it is as you say. Mindfulness of dhamma and the eightfold path is essential in every situation. I particularly enjoyed how sections A through D, suggested to my mind an order of decomposition of the dhamma. The perception of the emptiness of each layer gives rise to the conditions for the perception of the emptiness of the next. The technique seems to be -- Just try to find something self-existent. Whittle away at your reality until you get to the truth. In Section D.5, the discernment of mental qualities leads to the four noble truths, and then the eightfold path, right concentration, which ends: "... With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." Which reminded me of the next sentence in 46741: "If he develops it in the forest he can attain the fourth jhaana. He can make this jhaana a basis for the contemplation of conditioned dhammas and reach arahatship, which is the highest fruit." The above suggests to me that a long period of physical seclusion (the forest) is required to get the typical mind over a hump (the fourth jhaana), after which your mind has right concentration. Focusing through any attempted interruption is a useful skill, and one which makes such physical seclusion unnecessary for further progress. This suggests a minmum prescription of: Dedicated practice and one long meditation retreat In any case, when I said "it's all about spiritual seclusion", I was referring to the the Piti Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-176.html and the Buddha's exhortation to ''train yourself, "Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture." '', followed by a list of possibilities of pain&distress and pleasure&joy (dependent on various things) which do not exist in such seclusion. The list of such possibilities eliminates all but "the pleasure&joy dependent on what is skillful". > --------------- > T: > I just need to be out of shouting distance for that. Some people > need to live in a hut in the desert. Some people can do it on the bus. > --------------- > When the concept known as 'shouting' is being experienced there are, > in ultimate reality, conditioned paramattha dhammas. For example, > there are; audible object, hearing-consciousness, volitional > contact, perception, mental feeling, and other dhammas that think > about shouting. These dhammas - and not the concept of shouting - > are the real objects of satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. I understand that things are as you say, and it is my very deepest wish to directly experience the truth of this ultimate reality. In the meantime, when the concept known as 'shouting' is being experienced there are, in my experience of conditioned dhammas, a turbulence between hearing-consciounsess and volitional contact, which conditions my yet-untamed mind to attend to the perception of a sound, which interrupts my meditation. The conditions have arisen in my rational-but-undisciplined mind to think that the only way to have such an experience is to bring forth the conditions for it, by living each moment as if I had already had the experience, weaving this great vehicle around the eightfold path trying to live parallel to it. Curiosity pulls my mind away, but it is through that strength that my mind got the idea. Tonight I will focus my curiosity, reminding it that I can "know all there is to be known": http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/khtut01.htm Therefore, they all fervidly acclaimed him "one who knows all the dhammas, one whose knowledge of the dhamma is absolute. He was widely praised and his attribute of "Sammasambuddha", one who knows all there is to be known, both mundane and supramundane, became well known throughout the world. Wow. It turns out that my curiosity is not insatiable! I just have to become a Sammasambuddha! :-) Anyway, perhaps "shouting distance" was a little too idiomatic of me. I meant "effectively alone"; that is, no contact with any other people. My three examples were intended as examples of what might constitute spiritual seclusion for people. However, "Therefore, for the yogavacara who does not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses." > I hope you will forgive my saying so, > but your idea that a quiet place is better (or worse) than a noisy > place suggests that you might not have properly understood the > Dhamma. I was merely suggesting that a quiet place would be more effective for an easily-disturbed person to meditiate without interruption, and what conditions constitute such quiet varies from person to person. I agree that no place is intrinsically better than another; I love noisy places too! The only true and lasting seclusion is spiritual, as seen in 46801 which you so kindly referenced: The intelligent, having conquered all, knowing all, From all states detached, disengaged, & unsoiled, Having given up all, released by removal of craving, Such One, I call: 'Living Alone'... > If that is the case, then meditation - in the ultimate sense of the > word - has not been conditioned to arise just yet. Never mind, you > not alone - far from it! :-) I periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture. That's how I am training myself. (well, among other things) > Are you a student of SN Goenka? Several DSG members - including > myself - have attended his courses. I now prefer to study the Dhamma > as found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. But there > is a wide diversity at DSG - many of us think the commentaries are > "nonsense" and the Abhidhamma-pitaka is "not the word of the > Buddha." But we all get along surprisingly well - most of the time. I am a student of all dhamma. I will consider any teaching and learn what I can from it. My prejudice of a teaching (hi Rob M!!) is likely conditioned by the truth found in previous teachings by the same author. I am only critical of my interpretation of what I read, never of the words themselves. Whether that comes through in my words is up to your interpretation. When conditions arise such that I find myself right on the path, from moment to moment for many consecutive moments, the only difference between me and me+enlightenment will be the enlightenment, and then I will probably finish the dishes and make some tea. > ---------------------------------------------- > T: > P.S. Do whatever it takes > ---------------------------------------------- > Thanks, I take that to mean that the dhammas, panna (right > understanding) and sati (mindfulness) should do whatever it takes. > (That is, they should know one of the presently arisen dhammas for > what it really is.) After all, in the world taught by the Buddha > there are only dhammas. Today at lunch, a bee landed on my companion's hair. I said calmly, "don't panic, a bee just landed on your hair". She tried to brush it away, but missed it. I shooed it away and it flew to the window, towards the sunlight, buzzing up and down, trying to go around the glass. It flew to the bottom of the window and I put my hand down in front of it. The bee crawled onto my finger and I took it outside. It flew away. Namaste, Tom -- -- Tom Rathborne tomr@... http://www.aceldama.com/~tomr/ You cannot think of the Thinker of thinking; you cannot know the Knower of knowing. He is never thought of, but is the Thinker; He is never known, but is the Knower. Bá¹›hadÄ?raṇyaka Upaniá¹£ad 50653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M's problem nilovg Hi Rob M, you received answers from different angles. Thinking the way you do is conditioned, so don't worry about it. You fell over the seventeen moments, and Lodewijk says he perfectly understands. We do not have to count these moments. We may find it reasonable that a sense object, a rupa, can be experienced by several cittas, thus, that it lasts longer. It is best to develop more understanding of what can be experienced now: realities appearing through the six doors, one at a time. Yesterday I quoted from the Mahaasuññatta sutta. This is the solution to the problem, there is no other solution. Nina. op 26-09-2005 03:07 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > When I listen to a dhamma talk or read a dhamma book, I have started > to classify the ideas. 50654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question nilovg Dear Ng Boon, Also the arahat thinks of beings, and he has compassion. The Buddha had great compassion, mahaa-karu.na, to help all beings. I agree that we do not know of others' attainments. It is of no use to think about it, we better attend to developing understanding of seeing, visible object, attachment presenting themselves at this moment. Nina. op 26-09-2005 05:23 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > One who took the vehicle of Arahants or wisdom, would > know that the result of one's receiving is the > creation of one's own kamma. This is call > Kamma-Vipaka. > For example, An arahant if he saw someone were run > down by a car and died, he would most probably think > that is his own kamma. He would not have any compasion > or feel sorry for that dead person or his family. 50655 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? sarahprocter... Hi Tom R*, Welcome to DSG from me too- --- Tom Rathborne wrote: > --- "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > A Dhamma friend pointed out that this sutta, the Piti Sutta, seems > > to indicate that lay people are expressly advised by Buddha to > > meditate in seclusion of retreat. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-176.html > > Comments? > > Eek, I wrote a response to this but it disappeared, possibly because I > sent it before joining the group. Perhaps our kind moderators have it. > If so, we may get to see what my previous draft looked like. .... S: Sorry, the mods don't have any magic wand to retrieve posts sent by non-members or posts lost in cyber-space for any other reason:-(. I used to lose lots of my own until I eventually realised that one could use a 'drafts' word document which I recommend for long or detailed posts:-). I'd love to join in the seclusion thread with you and Ken H, but am trying to tie up other threads, so I'll leave you to it for now. I see you're already having a great discussion and look f/w to reading your latest post later. Where do you live, Tom? Anything else to share about your background obviously keen interest in the Dhamma? Ken H already referred you to Useful Posts in the files for 'Seclusion'. Maybe other sections like 'Jhana and Nibbana', 'Lay people-Jhanas' are also relevant. For the Pali for the sutta, if no one has helped yet, try: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html I'll look f/w to chatting to you later -- probably after our trip. Metta, Sarah *We have a few Toms now who've joined the list, so I hope you don't mind being addressed as Tom R? ============================ 50656 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 0:50am Subject: is compassion associated with joyful feeling? antony272b2 Send IM Dear Group, I am researching the topic of compassion. I read the Useful Posts with interest and have a question: In the Abhidhamma, is compassion associated with joyful feeling? Nyanaponika wrote: "Sympathetic Joy....soothes the painful burning of the compassionate heart" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html#inter Kamalashila wrote: "In the karuna-bhavana practice we don't try to develop compassion; we simply develop metta, friendliness. The difference is in the object of meditation - a suffering person." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/2016 Any thoughts or links appreciated. Thanks / Antony. 50657 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] is compassion associated with joyful feeling? nilovg Hi Anthony, op 26-09-2005 09:50 schreef Antony Woods op antony272b@...: > In the Abhidhamma, is compassion associated with joyful feeling? N: Yes. One can alleviate with joy someone else's suffering. It can be associated with pleasant feeling or with indifferent feeling. Nina. 50658 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: Rob M's problem kenhowardau Hi Rob, Is it hard to believe that the Buddha taught every word of the Abhidhamma we know today? Remember, he did teach for forty-five years, and in that time all of the brilliant (and not-so-brilliant) thinkers in India were encouraged to ask questions. I feel sure they would have plied him with questions (either directly or via the senior bhikkhus) until they had a complete and clear picture of ultimate reality. It is not surprising if it took a long time for all of the details to be collated into one body of text. I think it is more likely that some of the minor details were lost in that time than that other details were added on. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a problem that I would like your help on. > .... > It becomes a real problem when a speaker / author makes an incorrect > claim about the genesis of an idea. For example, I recently heard a > very popular dhamma speaker attribute the seventeen thought-moment > citta process to the Buddha. Once a speaker / author makes a mistake > like this, they hurt their credibility in my eyes and this causes me > to put even more focus on potential mistakes in their talk / text. > > 50659 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Rob M's problem christine_fo... Hello RobM and KenH, all, As you know, none of the scriptures were written down for quite a long time - they were memorised by the groups of Banakas. My understanding is that the Suttas are rather like the memory prompts - the dot points - a public speaker carries on a little card in his hand. They don't carry the whole lecture. I've always thought of the Abhidhamma as the 'preliminary studies' and the Suttas as the Post Graduate University Course - because the Suttas are the dot points to jog the memory of those who have arduously learned Dhamma through all their studies from pre-school, through primary and high school, then through undergraduate studies. And, finally, the Post Graduate Scholars only need the dot points (the Suttas) for discussion and reflection. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 50660 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: is compassion associated with joyful feeling? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I am researching the topic of compassion. > > I read the Useful Posts with interest and have a question: > > In the Abhidhamma, is compassion associated with joyful feeling? > > Nyanaponika wrote: > "Sympathetic Joy....soothes the painful burning of the compassionate > heart" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html#inter > > Kamalashila wrote: > "In the karuna-bhavana practice we don't try to develop compassion; > we simply develop metta, friendliness. The difference is in the > object of meditation - a suffering person." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhaviharas/message/2016 > > Any thoughts or links appreciated. > > Thanks / Antony. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Anthony, Kamalashi was right. It is the object that makes the difference. Metta is the chief here. It is adosa hetu. It is root dhamma while karuna is not a root dhamma or hetu. Karuna can be associated with joy or without joy. When karuna becomes jhaana and if this is 1st or 2nd jhaana then there does arise joy or piiti as associate or as jhaana-factor or jhaananga. But if jhaana is 3rd jhaana (sukha + ekaggataa) there is no joy or piiti. This is joy regarding karunaa and jhaana. Even if it is not jhaana, there are 2 kinds of karuna. One is with joy and another is without joy. The object is always 'suffering beings'. If the object is 'prospering being' it will be mudita instead of karunaa. But in both of karuna and mudita there always are 'metta' and 'tetramajjhattaa' or 'balancer'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50661 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: Lesson from a lurker htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: Hi All, I have been thinking about this incident all day. As we wade along the stream of existence, we inevitably create ripples. These ripples touch other people both known and unknown to us. Metta, Rob M :-) -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Rob M, I know there are ripples. The ripples do have effects and these may last long depending on conditions. Example if someone printed out and made a hard copy and these are there for later and later generations then there will be continuing ripples even if in case the net broke down. Dhamma is for Dhamma-seekers. Dhamma is not for non-seeker. Seekers may include tasters that is even though some do not delibrately searching Dhamma but taste Dhammaon the way of doing other things. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50662 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: Naughty Tep and james! / A Pledge htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Sarah and all - > > There are good things I have gained from being put under > the "naughty" spot light by Chris and Phil: it makes me examine what I > have written (that caused Chris and Phil irritation) and the real motive > behind it; it makes me become more aware of any greater harmony:). > > Tep: Of course, we freely volunteer our time to share thoughts and > views (both right and wrong) with each other because we see > continued mutual dhamma benefits based on mutual respect. In this > environment the whole group benefits most when at least half of the > members do not belong to the exclusive "Khun Sujin Club". I am > relieved to be reassured that you are not that narrow minded. > > S: At the same time, we do all need to be mindful of different sensitivities > and clearly what is innocuous to one person may be offensive to > another. I'm sure we all tread on seen and unseen toes in this regard > often with our humour/language/innuendo/seeming disrespect/off- topic > comments or whatever. > > Tep: You have my solemn pledge that I will not step on anyone's toes > again! By the way, do those toes belong to some "selves"? What > about the irritation when some toes were stepped on? > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear All, Well, well, well. There are selves and there are no selves. When they are selves those selves are just individuals and not atta. The problems is wording. Some even prefer 'personal' 'impersonal'. Whatever it is there are selves and there are no selves. If selves are believed then please 'control' those selves otherwise those selves will be endlessly suffering. If selves are not believed then please do not control those selves. If control, there will lose energy without any fruit and may even lead to disasters. Stepping on toes? Who step on? Forgive them. Who are stepped on? Compassionate them and tell them to forgive those who stepped on. In this way metta can be exchanged and there is no loss in doing such exchange while any worldly exchange does have certain loss when exchange. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50663 From: "khcheah33" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: Lurker friend of Rob M . . . khcheah33 Hi Sarah, Rob M, and all DSG friends, It's me whom Bro Rob M mentioned in his post # Msg 50630. May I give a brief intro about myself. I'm KH Cheah of Kuala Lumpur. Every Sunday too I'll be at Buddhist Maha Vihara, KL, doing my part as a voluntary teacher at the Vihara's Sunday Dhamma School. I am also the head of the exam dept, organising and preparing the candidates for the Colombo YMBA Dhamma exam and also the Malaysian Buddhist Dhamma Exam. I'm enjoying the dhamma-work there which has been keeping me real busy throughout the year (held post for the lst 5 years). So much for that. In reality, I figure I'm still learning something new about the Dhamma every day. So you see, I'm still a novice compared to many of the DSG brothers-&-sisters-in-the-Dhamma. On the study of the Abhidhamma, I've been attending 'crash' courses by Dr Tin Monh, Ven Tejavudha of Myanmar (& also Rob M's class too) the last 3 years. And at present, in the absence of Venerable Tejavudha (he's back in Myanmar), I'm 'forced' to head the Abhidhamma discussion group (a few adults) joting down some discussion points and helping to print out some notes. (Ven Tejavudha will be back in KL B. M. Vihara towards end of Dec '05.) To Bro Rob M : Welcome back, Bro Rob. Guess it's not so much of my prompting you to write again; maybe your work has been keeping you busy. You see, as I mentioned to you, every one of us in DSG is really missing your contributions. Hope you can just find some spare moments to share your thoughts with us. To Sarah & all : Sorry for 'lying low' and sorry too for not having much to contribute at the moment. My Abhidhamma classmates may have some questions to pose & given the 'green light' I hope to write in again so that the learned brothers-&-sisters-in-DSG will be able to help out with some views and comments. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu to everyone for the 'invaluable' articles being posted here in the DSG. Do keep up the momentum. Have to sign off now, 'coz need to rush off to fetch my kids back from school. Metta, KH Cheah, K.L. Vihara. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi RobM (Lurker friend & Phil), > > for inspiring you to write again. (Lurker friend, we'd love to hear from you as well....thanks for introducing yourself to Rob M.) > > ========= 50664 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A question mr39515 Dear Nina I would think that from Nama/Rupa stand point, Compassion is a cetasika and cetasika itself do exist. But I doubt an Arahant would use compassion cetasika. An arahant would use Wisdom in their decision and their actions.... Just my thoughts.... Any way, this conflict has been around since very long time ago. Which vehicle to take. I believe it is not the question of which is better, it is the question of which one we have. Both are good and leads to enlightenment. It is better to practice and start the journey.... metta mr39515 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ng Boon, > Also the arahat thinks of beings, and he has > compassion. The Buddha had > great compassion, mahaa-karu.na, to help all beings. > I agree that we do not know of others' attainments. > It is of no use to think > about it, we better attend to developing > understanding of seeing, visible > object, attachment presenting themselves at this > moment. > Nina. 50665 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: Male or Female? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I remember Nina once talked about a dhamma that determines if one > is a > > male or a female. > > > > I came across this adoption agency CWA and they have a special > needs > > child with the following description: > > > > Female. dob: 8/10/03. Born with both female and male external > genital > > organs > > > > http://www.cwa.org/1sn0605/a7.htm > > > > How does the Abhidhamma explain the gender for such a case? > > > > Regards, > > Swee Boon > Hello Swee Boon, > > My nephew was born with no external genital organs. That was many > years ago - and even then it was a simple matter to do a medical > test to discover whether he (as it turned out) was male or female. > (The pathologists said no-one is gender-indeterminate). Then came > some years of surgery to construct a male organ - which, so I hear - > performs all required tasks satisfactorily. External organs are not > what indicates maleness or femaleness scientifically. > > metta > Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, Swee Boon and all, There are 1. pulli`nga (truely male) 2. itthili`nga (truely female) 3. ubhatobya~nna(both male and female) 4. napulli`nga(non-male) as regard to sex (rather than gender, which is psychosocial concept). A woman can become a male gender if she want to be registered as a male and vice versa. But genetics cannot be changed as it is true for kamma. These are according to kamma niyama and biija niyama even though anatomy can be reconstructed to change sex organ. True male have Y chromosome as genetics dictates. The embryo has indeterminate sex organ from the start. But because of Y chromosome all the potential structures that might become female organs are inhibited and Y chromosome dominates to become a male throughout the whole anatomical body including all cells. Itthili`nga have a pair of sex chromosome which is X and X. As there is no Ya then all organs develop are all female organs. This is true female. There are ubhatobya~nna who have both male organ and female organ. Sometimes some of these beings have time when they are male and time when they are female. In Myanmar recently there was a lady who become a man. She was not tested genetically as when she was born there did exist genuine female organ. She had periods twice but stopped later. But there was no ill effect of not having period as Myanmar people traditionally thought. The lady did not bother as a disease or anything on her 'not having period'. But the problem started when she noticed that she discovered that she started to have a penis. She was then referred for medical opinion and after extensive testing and discussion her gender was changed. Now he is a man. There are napull`nga or non-male. There are people who are female when they are born. The problem starts when they are married. Because some have shallow vagina and some even just have a dimple. Sometimes these beings seek for medical opinion for not having menstruation. When they are tested genetically they are genetic male that is they are 46 XY. But their body is all womanly and nothing is physically wrong except they have testicles or male-seeds inside of their abdomen. Some develop full-length vagina but there is no uterus, no ovaries. Even though these beings are not genuine female ( as they are 46 XY ), they are not male and they are napull`nga. Even though they have Y chromosome, the end-organ or the organ that were going to become male organ were not responding the influence of Y chromosome. There do exist indeterminate sex. At that time psychosocial issue is much much more important than anatomical issue. All that behind is KAMMA. KAMMA rules. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50666 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: Male or Female? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi All, I remember Nina once talked about a dhamma that determines if one is a male or a female. I came across this adoption agency CWA and they have a special needs child with the following description: Female. dob: 8/10/03. Born with both female and male external genital organs http://www.cwa.org/1sn0605/a7.htm How does the Abhidhamma explain the gender for such a case? Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Swee Boon, 1)Abhidhamma will not see any 'pannatti' as 'paramattha dhamma'. This is the first explanation. 2)Abhidhamma will explain that this is vipaaka. Avijjaa paccayaa sankhaara, sankhaara paccayaa vi~n~naanaa, vinnaana paccayaa naama- ruupam. These naama-ruupa are wrongly seen as 'both male and female'. This again is linked with former D.O links like avijjaa, sankhaara etc etc. Some beings do have great lust and they are greedy to have sex without contemplating whether it is right or wrong in social context. Then they commit 'micchaa-caara' at 'kaama' or 'kaamesu- micchaacaara'. They try to have sex with beings, who have owner or sexual partners or who have guardians. Venerable Ananda was once a son of rich man and he committed many many wrong act that is kaamesu-micchaacaara. He had to be reborn in hell, then reborn in female lives and 7 lives before the final life he was a queen of Sakka. After that he became male being. Abhidhamma will explain kamma in this matter of beings with both sexes. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50667 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James (and Htoo, Swee, Sarah, Jon, KenH, Steve) - > > I am a little disappointed that the most important part of your wonderful > post # 50512, has escaped attention of the DSG members who have > the cock-eyed belief that ariya jhana (the Buddha-to-be's discovery, > which led to his Awakening) does not exist. > > >James (quoting DN 10, Subha Sutta): > >'And how is a monk guardian of the sense-doors? He guards the > >sense-doors and attains the four jhanas (DN 2, verses 64-82). > >This comes to him through concentration. That is the division of Ariyan > >concentration which the Lord praised...But something more remains to > >be done.' > > >'It is wonderful, Reverend Ananda, it is marvellous! This division > >of Ariyan concentration is perfectly fulfilled, not left incomplete. >AND I DO NOT SEE THIS DIVISION OF ARIYAN CONCENTRATION >FULFILLED THUS ANYWHERE AMONG THE ASCETICS AND >BRAHMINS OF OTHER SCHOOLS. Tep: This is the most direct proof that should end any argument of the following kinds: a) Jhana is jhana, is jhana, is jhana. There is only one kind of jhana before or after the Bodhisatta's Awakening. b) Aalaara Kalama and Udaka Raamaputta achieved all four rupa jhanas, that were the same as the Buddha's four jhanas. c) "It seems to me that it would be reasonable to say that there were recluses and Brahmins at the time of the Buddha, and most likely before, who were outside the Buddha dispensation, that were attaining these 4 jhanas and proclaiming them as Nibbana here and now". --------------------------------------- >James: I think that this states without a doubt that Aalaara Kalama and >Udaka Raamaputta did not attain the four rupa jhanas as taught by >the Buddha. >No one else in India at the time of the Buddha practiced the four >jhanas except for the Buddha and his disciples. Tep: You can say that again, and again! Thank you for your diligent finding of this great sutta, DN 10. Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and all, I do not know who left and who remain as I can see there have been some ?? recently. If it is ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana it is the same anywhere at any time with regard to characters of ruupa-jhaana. Before The Buddha, during The Buddha dispensation while The Buudha was alive and after The Buddha. Aalaara and Udaka both were masters of aruupa-jhaana. So they could master to enter any jhaana that they had attained and they taught their students including Bodhisatta Siddhattha. Unlike other students, Siddhattha obtained all these jhaanas that his teachers mastered within a very short period. But Siddhattha did not satisfy when he had these jhaanas as they are not the answers to the questions of 'state of no-birth-no-ageing-no-death' and he continued his search. On his 35th birthday in the evening he started 1st ruupa jhaana again while he discarded all teachings of Aalaara and Udaka. I say this because Siddattha's method was his own and it was the 1st ruupa-jhaana that was obtained under the trees while his father Suddhodana was ploughing in the peddy fields. So this 1st ruupa jhaana is not of Aalara nor Udaka. Basing on this jhaana but with some different approach he rocketed up to pubbe-nivaasa naana. At midnight there came 'dibbacakkhu naana' or deva-cakkhu. Because of this He discovered AMAZING THINGS. Dibbacakkhu makes Him to see arising beings, beings passing away in split second. As there are billions and trillions and zillions of being in this samsara or 31 planes of existence everything (every being) is just passing away. WELL! THIS IS THE ANSWER. MARVELLOUS! I GOT IT. I FIND IT. I SEE THE LINKS VERY VERY CLEARLY. This rocketed up to Aasava-kkhaya naana and all fire are extinguished with attainment of all naana and special power. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50668 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: A question / A coded message htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > You are a master of coded message (that only you understand). > > Howard: > > > A claim to be an *arahant*? I missed *that*. Are you sure? > > > > > >Htoo: > > There recently has been waves. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > PS: See dhamma-list messages 2 or 3 weeks back from 23.9.05. What about E = MC^2 + XYZ + HTOO ? Regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, :-)), Howard was not asking that formula. As Howard was trying to communicate and I was communicating with him, it is essential that both parties understood the message. I did not address as 'Dear all' or 'Dear all members' or any general addressing when I talked to Howard. If we have talked about 'E = MC^2 + XYZ + HTOO' it is OK and we can continue if there are reason to discuss that 'E = MC^2 + XYZ + HTOO'. With best wishes, Htoo 50669 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:21am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. htootintnaing Dear James, [I think James may have left as I read later messages. But I try to reply here.] Please see below for more discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Hi Htoo, James: Sure, no problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cool. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Okay, here is where we are having some difficulty. I believe that the term 'jhaana' you are using here is being applied to a type of mental yoga which doesn't correspond to the Buddha's teaching of the four jhanas. Sure, many people concentrated their minds on objects, and went into a type of trance, and possibly developed psychic powers as a result, but this STILL isn't the type of jhana that the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught the greater and greater purification of jhana (mental concentration) by advancing the process into steps that utilize joy, rapture, wisdom, and non- clinging. No one else did that- it is unique to the Buddha and allowed him to achieve full enlightenment. The problem, as I see it, is that Pali isn't very specific and one word is often used to apply to a great many things. In other words, not all jhanas < end quote> are the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I define when I talk ruupa-jhaanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: Yes, these jhanas were not part of the Noble Eightfold Path. They were inferior jhanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: By definition, they are ruupa-jhaana whatever you assign them as inferior or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- James: If this monk displayed psychic abilities to you and he hasn't reached any of the stages of enlightenment, then he is probably practicing an inferior jhana, in my opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The monk did not show us. But we accidentally saw. There were people who saw closely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I am not sort of argumentative people. James: Okay, then we can drop it if you would like. You still haven't responded specifically to the sutta quotations I gave you. I think that we are experiecing a culture gap in this conversation :- ). My expectations don't match yours. No big deal- we can move on. With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you become clear it is OK. For quoting I am not expert in quoting. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50670 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M's problem AND reply to PHIL! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and RobM, and also RobK) - In a message dated 9/26/05 12:34:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > >It becomes a real problem when a speaker / author makes an incorrect > >claim about the genesis of an idea. For example, I recently heard a > >very popular dhamma speaker attribute the seventeen thought-moment > >citta process to the Buddha. Once a speaker / author makes a mistake > >like this, they hurt their credibility in my eyes and this causes me > >to put even more focus on potential mistakes in their talk / text. > > > >When I was less scholarly, I listed to Dhamma talks with joy. Now I > >find that mixed with a critical mind. > ..... > S: I think there are two separate issues here. The first we’ve discussed > at length before. Briefly: > > 1.On the factual point above, there can be lots of discussion/debate, but > I don’t personally think the speaker made a mistake. As we read in the > Atthasalini, that ‘The Abhidhamma is not the province of others; it is the > province of the Buddhas only. Such a discourse as the Abhidhamma can be > taught by them only’. Elsewhere, references to that which is in conformity > with the Buddha’s teachings and elaborated on by the Great Disciples is > known as ‘Buddha-vacana’ or word of the Buddha and so on. We’ve been over > all these points – I know you have misgivings, it’s OK. Many don’t accept > the Buddha taught a ‘Tipitaka’. Back to U.P. ‘Abhidhamma –origins’:). > ========================== If I may butt in, I would suppose there are several issues involved here with regard to the 17-citta idea. One is whether this is fact known by the Buddha, or a later, whole-cloth innovation. A second, that assumes this being fact-known-by-the-Buddha or simply ignores that question, is a matter of where the fact or claim is first reported - suttas, abhidhamma, or commentaries. An issue related to each of the foregoing, assuming the first report is in the abhidhamma, is whether that particular element of the abhidhamma is an innovation that was not taught by the Buddha. In a review of a book by Matthew Boisvert, Peter Harvey writes the following, which I think some may find relevant and which may serve to harmonize some of the positions on this matter. He wrote the following: ______________________________________ In the chapter on "The Viññanakkhandha", Boisvert argues against the view that viññana is "bare sensations devoid of any content" (p.117), holding that it is "probably the faculty needed for the cognition of pure percept, of sensation and of conceptualisation as well" (p.118). This is generally correct, but the analysis, here, would have been improved by some reference to the theory of the citta-vithi, or "process of cittas", found fully developed in the commentaries, in skeletal form in the Patthana, and even alluded to in seed form in the Suttas. ----------------------------------------------------------- Finding the process of citta business in seed form in the suttas [too bad no reference is given] suggests that it is not cut from whole cloth, but doesn't say much about the specific 17-citta notion. Finding the notion of process of cittas in skeletal form in the Patthana may show that more strongly, provided the Patthana text of the Abhidhamma is direct Buddha word (with that being a whole other can of worms) that the process-of-citta notion is not purely commentarial, but still is indefinite with regard to the 17-citta notion. Finding the *full-blown* process-of-citta notion, which includes the17-citta notion, only in the commentaries may show that it is an *elaboration or extension* of earlier ideas. In any case, it seems to me that the *unquestioning* assumption that the 17-citta notion is absolute fact and that it was directly due to the Buddha is a matter of pure religious faith. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 50671 From: nina Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:12am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 195 and commentary. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 195 Text Vis. 195. 'All that together in the mass and in the gross': by making all that materiality, separately described by the words 'past', etc., into a collection by understanding its oneness, in other words, its characteristic of being molested (ruppana), it comes to be called the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. This is the meaning here. --------- N: We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² (Sammohavinodanii, p. 6) : Ruupa has the characteristic of being molested (ruppanalakkha.na). There is a word association of ruppana, being molested, with ruupa. The Dispeller of Delusion (p. 3) states about this: The Dispeller of Delusion adds that it is molested because it is wellbeaten; it is oppressed; it is broken. It gives examples of the sufferings of the body due to cold, heat etc. The above quoted sutta shows us the disadvantages of ruupakkhandha. It is the cause of many kinds of suffering that have to be endured so long as one is in the cycle of birth and death. We cling to ruupas of the body, but they are just ruupa-khandha that is present, past and future. They all have the characteristic of being molested. As we have seen, the ruupas of our body originate from kamma, citta, heat or nutrition. What arises because of conditions has to fall away. Even though ruupa lasts longer than citta, it has to pass through the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution. As soon as ruupa arises it is on its way to destruction. ****** Nina. 50672 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: A question nidive Hi Ng Boon Huat, > The only reason why arahants teaches is if they were > instructed by their teacher, the Buddha. In other words, presently, only non-ariyan lay people and non-ariyan bhikkhus may teach the Dhamma but ariyans must keep their mouth shut and refrain from even discussing about the Dhamma because it can be construed as a form of teaching. How sad a Dhamma this is, isn't it? > Other reason why Ariyas won't tell the world or any > one is that, they cut wrong views. Sotapan fully cut > wrong views. If there is no wrong views, where can > there be a self to admit he is a ariyas. All ariyas > has experience the 16 Nana and have no wrong view... > not even the view of selfhood. They only see Anata. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, these five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with these four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out this noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'" ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-179.html "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' ------------------------------------------------------------------- > If someone came to tell you that he is an Ariyas, you > can tell him that, "you can go to hell". In fact, Hell > is the results of that action. This goes the same for Jhanna > as well. Where the hell did the Buddha teach this? > So don't simply believe anyone who tell you that he is an ariyas > or he has attain Jhanna. Certainly! > To answer the question whether one will know who is > ariyas and who is not ?? Basically for us lay people, > we won't be able differenciate for sure. I believe the > rule of thumb is the ability to see the same level or > lower. So a sotapan can know who is a sotapan. And an > Arahant can know who is a Arahants and who else are > the Ariyas (1st, 2nd, 3rd sainthood and arahants). The > problem is we, lay people can only see the stage of > lay people. So what ever action we do to the Ariyas > (good or bad), the results will be very heavy and some > will be immediate. It is import to be nice to all.... > cause we lay people don't know who are the ariyas and > who are not. Nobody can truly know if another is an ariyan, except for the Buddha, in my opinion. Regards, Swee Boon 50673 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: A question htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Ng Boon Huat, Nobody can truly know if another is an ariyan, except for the Buddha, in my opinion. Regards, Swee Boon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Ng and all, It is hard to assume someone is ariyan and we never directly know. But it is so easy to deny that someone is an ariyan. Example someone who is killing another being right in front of our visible eyes is definitely not an ariyan. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50674 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 195 and commentary. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 195 Text Vis. 195. 'All that together in the mass and in the gross': by making all that materiality, separately described by the words 'past', etc., into a collection by understanding its oneness, in other words, its characteristic of being molested (ruppana), it comes to be called the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. This is the meaning here. --------- As soon as ruupa arises it is on its way to destruction. ****** Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your post. It is clear that as soon as ruupa arises it is on its way to destruction. This is microscopic level. As soon as we are born we are on our way to death. Are there anything that we all should firmly grasp while we are awaiting the death? But still people are holding many different views that are deviated from the true one and this again is leading to hibernation of unprofitable things, growing of unprofitable things and outbursting of unprofitable things. We are dying soon. We are definitely dying soon. We are inevitably dying very very soon. What is the point of grasping unprofitable things and unprofitable view when we all are dying. Whoever attain 4th ruupa jhaana here? Whoever attain 3rd ruupa jhaana here? Whoever atain 2nd ruupa jhaana here? Whoever atain 1st ruupa jhaana here? Whoever admit any of these 4 questions, are you sincere enough to admit that you attain 1st ruupa jhaana, 2nd ruupa jhaana, 3rd ruupa jhaana, 4th ruupa jhaana? If you are sincere enough to admit so, are you sure that you attain stated jhaana? If so sure, do you really know all those states when you have this or that jhaana? If you truely know, do you know what your mind directs to, what your mind attends, what your mind perceives, what you mind feels, what your mind is in touch with, and so on? Who decide what is noble and what is ignoble when one is in the state of jhaana attainment? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: This post has two pieces. One is reply to Nina that ruupa are just going to vanish soon as soon as they arise. But later part is to ALL DSG members whoever they are lurking or participating. 50675 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:16am Subject: Things as they truely are htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, How delightful it will be if we clearly know right things, true things, correct things, flawless things, genuine things, undiluted things, undisturbed things, unmixed things, uncreated things, things that are right in the middle of what they truely are!! To happen this what is needed is 'knowledge of things as they really and truely are'. We touch fire and know it is fire through its characteristic marks of hotness, burning, etc etc. That is we know fire as it really is. Yathaa means 'like' 'as' 'such' 'as it is'. Bhuuta means 'grounds' 'solid support or substantial support'. Yathaabhuuta means 'grounds as they are'. There is knowledge that is yathaabhuuta-naana. It is the knowledge of things as they truely are and really are. This knowledge help being see 'right things' 'true things' 'genuine things' 'undiluted things' 'uncreated things'. For this happen, there have to be much much learning through personal experience. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50676 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: Male or Female? nidive Hi Htoo, > 2)Abhidhamma will explain that this is vipaaka. > Then they commit 'micchaa-caara' at 'kaama' or 'kaamesu- > micchaacaara'. They try to have sex with beings, who have owner or > sexual partners or who have guardians. > Venerable Ananda was once a son of rich man and he committed many > many wrong act that is kaamesu-micchaacaara. He had to be reborn in > hell, then reborn in female lives and 7 lives before the final life > he was a queen of Sakka. After that he became male being. > Abhidhamma will explain kamma in this matter of beings with both > sexes. Thank you for your explanation! Beings are indeed the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born of their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement! http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html Regards, Swee Boon 50677 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are nidive Hi Htoo, > How delightful it will be if we clearly know right things, true > things, correct things, flawless things, genuine things, undiluted > things, undisturbed things, unmixed things, uncreated things, things > that are right in the middle of what they truely are!! > > There is knowledge that is yathaabhuuta-naana. It is the knowledge > of things as they truely are and really are. This knowledge help > being see 'right things' 'true things' 'genuine things' 'undiluted > things' 'uncreated things'. > > For this happen, there have to be much much learning through > personal experience. Never forget concentration! -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-001.html "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." "And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually are? What is its reward?" "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward." "And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?" "Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward." "And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?" "Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Also: http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html Regards, Swee Boon 50678 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:45am Subject: Re: Rob M's problem AND reply to PHIL! philofillet Hi Sarah, James and all Thanks Sarah. I'm really excited about it - I've got a great story and I feel the momentum starting to come with the cool Autumn weather. I'll certainly be back, probably in the new year, and who knows, maybe with patience and metta developed a bit more. We'll see. James, I always think of you as a friend - just not a Dhamma friend. I'm going to keep in touch with you off-list about non Dhamma stuff because I really do find you interesting and I know you're a very loving person. My upcoming absence from DSG is not because of you, as you know, it's because of me. I still do wonder why, if you consistently find A. Sujin to teach "the dregs" of Dhamma or however it was you put it, you keep exposing yourself (so to speak!) to her and her "followers", but that's your business. Talk to you later. Phil > Phi, best wishes for your writing contest and I perfectly understand about > dead-lines , needing a break and so on. We'll all be glad to hear from > you anytime, but in your own time or rather, just as conditions dictate:). > Many thanks for all your wonderful posts in recent weeks/months and for > all your help in encouraging and inspiring friends here like the Lurker > friend, RobM bumped into:). 50679 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:04am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > > How delightful it will be if we clearly know right things, true > > things, correct things, flawless things, genuine things, undiluted > > things, undisturbed things, unmixed things, uncreated things, things > > that are right in the middle of what they truely are!! > > > > There is knowledge that is yathaabhuuta-naana. It is the knowledge > > of things as they truely are and really are. This knowledge help > > being see 'right things' 'true things' 'genuine things' 'undiluted > > things' 'uncreated things'. > > > > For this happen, there have to be much much learning through > > personal experience. > > Never forget concentration! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-001.html > > "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > > "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are > as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as > its reward." > > "And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they > actually are? What is its reward?" > > "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment > as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward." > > "And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?" > > "Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its > reward." > > "And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?" > > "Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, > knowledge & vision of release as its reward. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also: > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html > > Regards, > Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without right concentration things will never be seen very clearly. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50680 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep and all, > > I do not know who left and who remain as I can see there have been > some ?? recently. > > If it is ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana it is the same anywhere at any > time with regard to characters of ruupa-jhaana. Before The Buddha, > during The Buddha dispensation while The Buudha was alive and after The Buddha. > > Aalaara and Udaka both were masters of aruupa-jhaana. So they could master to enter any jhaana that they had attained and they taught their students including Bodhisatta Siddhattha. > > Unlike other students, Siddhattha obtained all these jhaanas that his > teachers mastered within a very short period. But Siddhattha did not > satisfy when he had these jhaanas as they are not the answers to the > questions of 'state of no-birth-no-ageing-no-death' and he continued > his search. > > On his 35th birthday in the evening he started 1st ruupa jhaana again > while he discarded all teachings of Aalaara and Udaka. I say this > because Siddattha's method was his own and it was the 1st ruupa- jhaana that was obtained under the trees while his father Suddhodana was ploughing in the peddy fields. So this 1st ruupa jhaana is not of > Aalara nor Udaka. > Tep: If his "1st ruupa jhaana is not of Aalara nor Udaka", then aren't you contradicting with what you said earlier, i.e. "If it is ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana it is the same anywhere at any time with regard to characters of ruupa-jhaana. Before The Buddha, during The Buddha dispensation while The Buudha was alive and after The Buddha" ?? Kind & warm regards, Tep ========= 50681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:57am Subject: Re: Naughty Tep and james! / A Pledge buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo (and all )- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear All, > > Well, well, well. There are selves and there are no selves. When they > are selves those selves are just individuals and not atta. The > problems is wording. Some even prefer 'personal' 'impersonal'. > Whatever it is there are selves and there are no selves. > > If selves are believed then please 'control' those selves otherwise > those selves will be endlessly suffering. If selves are not believed > then please do not control those selves. If control, there will lose > energy without any fruit and may even lead to disasters. > > Stepping on toes? Who step on? Forgive them. Who are stepped on? > Compassionate them and tell them to forgive those who stepped on. In this way metta can be exchanged and there is no loss in doing such > exchange while any worldly exchange does have certain loss when > exchange. > Is the existence of selves dependent on belief? How does a wrong belief affect one's judgement in each of the following two cases: 1) a belief on a self that does not exist, and 2) belief on a not-self but self exists? How can metta be "exchanged" between two non-existent selves, or between a no-self and a self? Just a thinking out aloud -- not meant to start a debate. Kind regards, Tep ======== 50682 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:10am Subject: Re: Male or Female? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > > 2)Abhidhamma will explain that this is vipaaka. > > Then they commit 'micchaa-caara' at 'kaama' or 'kaamesu- > > micchaacaara'. They try to have sex with beings, who have owner or > > sexual partners or who have guardians. > > Venerable Ananda was once a son of rich man and he committed many > > many wrong act that is kaamesu-micchaacaara. He had to be reborn in > > hell, then reborn in female lives and 7 lives before the final life > > he was a queen of Sakka. After that he became male being. > > Abhidhamma will explain kamma in this matter of beings with both > > sexes. > > Thank you for your explanation! > > Beings are indeed the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born > of their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as > their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in > terms of coarseness & refinement! > > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > > Regards, > Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Still there was a case where gender and sex both changed in the presence of The Buddha. The case was a case of arahat. Before his arahathood in that same life he was first a man. But when he saw an arahat who had a good look he thought inappropriately on that arahat and because of that very kamma (as the case was arahat) he became a woman. Before he became a woman he was a married man and had children. When he became a woman he (she) was married to a man and got children. But he was advised to apology to that same arahat and he (she) did what he (she) should and then he (she) became a man again. After that he entered the order of sangha and soon he became an arahat. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Christine may have some links regarding this event. 50683 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo and Swee: I think you both forgot to mention one thing. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Swee Boon, > > Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without right > concentration things will never be seen very clearly. > It is the "right understanding" that bypasses everything; once you have gained right understanding from reading and listening, they say, you automatically attain perfect sila and right concentration too. So it seems to them, when you talk concentration you are talking backward. In Thai, such a backward view is compared to the "stepping backward into a canal". Regards, Tep ======= 50684 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:28am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jhana = Samma-samadhi. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear Tep and all, > > > > I do not know who left and who remain as I can see there have been > > some ?? recently. > > > > If it is ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana it is the same anywhere at any > > time with regard to characters of ruupa-jhaana. Before The Buddha, > > during The Buddha dispensation while The Buudha was alive and > after The Buddha. > > > > Aalaara and Udaka both were masters of aruupa-jhaana. So they > could master to enter any jhaana that they had attained and they > taught their students including Bodhisatta Siddhattha. > > > > Unlike other students, Siddhattha obtained all these jhaanas that his > > teachers mastered within a very short period. But Siddhattha did not > > satisfy when he had these jhaanas as they are not the answers to the > > questions of 'state of no-birth-no-ageing-no-death' and he continued > > his search. > > > > On his 35th birthday in the evening he started 1st ruupa jhaana again > > while he discarded all teachings of Aalaara and Udaka. I say this > > because Siddattha's method was his own and it was the 1st ruupa- > jhaana that was obtained under the trees while his father Suddhodana > was ploughing in the peddy fields. So this 1st ruupa jhaana is not of > > Aalara nor Udaka. Tep: If his "1st ruupa jhaana is not of Aalara nor Udaka", then aren't you contradicting with what you said earlier, i.e. "If it is ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana it is the same anywhere at any time with regard to characters of ruupa-jhaana. Before The Buddha, during The Buddha dispensation while The Buudha was alive and after The Buddha" ?? Kind & warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, Cloud has to run away if there has to arise a good light with clarity. It is all the same if they are ruupaavacara ruupa jhaana. 1. Bodhisatta Siddhattha as a child was in 1st ruupavacara ruupa jhaana. (no one taught him ) 2. Aalaara Kalama could enter 1st ruupa jhaana. 3. Udaka Raamaputta could enter 1st ruupa jhaana. 4. The ripest (Bodhisatta) remember that he had ruupaavacara 1st ruupa jhaana. 5. Bodhisatta became a Sammaasambuddha. That Sammaasambuddha could enter ruupavacara 1st ruupa jhaana. 6. The Buddha Gotama was just going to pass away in physical weakness because of thirst, dehydration and all the derangements of bodily functions. After His last word 'Appamaadena sampadetha', He then entered ruupaavacara 1st ruupa jhaana. 7. Just before entering nibbana, The Buddha ascended up from 1st ruupa jhaana through 4th ruupa jhaana and then up 1st aruupa jhaana through 4th aruupa jhaana and then back down serially from 4th aruupa, 3rd aruupa, 2nd aruupa, 1st aruupa and then 4th ruupa, 3rd ruupa, 2nd ruupa and then The Buddha entered 1st ruupa jhaana All these 1st ruupa jhaana are all ruupavacara ruupa jhaana. So characterwise they are the same that is EXACTLY the same. The difference is that time, place, moment, individual etc are totally and completely different. Arahats' ruupa jhaana are all kiriyaa-jhaana and never kusala-jhaana while non-arahats' ruupa jhaana are always always always kusala- jhaana. Kusala-jhaana do have kusala and this kusala have potential to give rise to vipaaka in future. Again among ruupa jhaanas of arahats, The Buddha's ruupa jhaana is the best and there is no comparable ruupa jhaana to The Buddha including Moggallaana because Moggallaana could not eradicate his vaacana while The Buddha completely and totally extinguish, eradicate, remove, deroot everything bad and everything that is not suited to Sammaasambuddha. That is vaacana. The Buddha could eradicate vaacana. Characterwise all ruupa jhaana are totally the same. That is every jhaana citta has to have a citta and it is pure for any individual whether that individual is non-arahat or arahat or whatever. Then there have to be associated factors of jhaana like joy, concentration etc etc. Aalaara did have ruupa jhaana whatever he had never been taught by The Sammaasambuddha. This is no doubt. But it is not of NEP. Otherwise he would became ariyan. The same applied to Udaka. Bodhisatta in his past lives were all puthujana. There was no Bodhisattas who had NEP jhaana in their past lives. So there do exist jhaana that are never never never NEP sammaa-samaadhi. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50685 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo and Swee: > > I think you both forgot to mention one thing. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear Swee Boon, > > > > Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without right > > concentration things will never be seen very clearly. > > > > It is the "right understanding" that bypasses everything; once you have > gained right understanding from reading and listening, they say, you > automatically attain perfect sila and right concentration too. So it > seems to them, when you talk concentration you are talking backward. > > In Thai, such a backward view is compared to the "stepping backward > into a canal". > > > Regards, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Ha ha ha ha. Apology for my inappropriate behaviour but I could not help laughing. It was lobha that made me laugh. Ha ha ha ha. Soaking because of backward movement. NEP is simultaneous. What here discussing is all non-NEP things. All are mundane paths. That is why understanding is the first. But in real NEP, all 8 factors arise simultaneously. [smile:-)) real NEP, you would argue whether there are unreal NEP, ha ha ha ha.] With Metta, Htoo Naing 50686 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:43am Subject: Re: Naughty Tep and james! / A Pledge htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, Htoo (and all )- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Tep wrote: Is the existence of selves dependent on belief? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Selves' do not exist. The 'selevs' that are believed to exist are just individuals. Individuals are not selves. The Buddha preached Puggala pannatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: How does a wrong belief affect one's judgement in each of the following two cases: 1) a belief on a self that does not exist, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because of this wrong believe there have to arise jealousy, stinginess and if there is no such belief that there is self then these things will never arise again that is stinginess and jealousy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: and 2) belief on a not-self but self exists? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Non-self, not-self? this is right. So there is no more problem. But existing selves are all individuals and all living arahats in The Buddha's time did pay respect to The Buddha whenever they met The Buddha. Whoever of disciple arahats neglected The Buddha when they met The Buddha on the way or in the monastries? This is giving respect to self, who was The Sammaasambuddha. But this self is individual and not atta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: How can metta be "exchanged" between two non-existent selves, or between a no-self and a self? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Metta is a dhamma. When there are conditions it arises. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Just a thinking out aloud -- not meant to start a debate. Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sometimes debates are good and sometimes not. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50687 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:53am Subject: Re: Rob M's problem buddhatrue Hi Rob M., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a problem that I would like your help on. > > When I listen to a dhamma talk or read a dhamma book, I have started > to classify the ideas. First, welcome back! It is good to see your posts again. I really like the way you present Abhidhamma information. Now, to your question. My first response was to say that you don't have a problem. There is nothing wrong with being higly knowledgeable with the teaching to such an extent that you know what comes from where. That would be something I would like to have (can I borrow your brain for a while? ;-)). On the other hand, you believe that there is a problem so I have to determine where the problem lies. There is only one sentence which jumps out at me, "When I was less scholarly, I listed to Dhamma talks with joy. Now I find that mixed with a critical mind." So, from my interpretation, the problem is viewing the dhamma as a scholarly subject and less as a personal training, almost becoming jaded to the dhamma? Is that the problem? (I'm going to assume so and continue. If I am mistaken, my apologies). In that case, it seems to me that you are suffering from dhamma burnout. You have been studying and teaching the dhamma so much that you haven't been stopping to apply it at a personal level, to yourself and others. It is becoming too much of a scholarly subject. The best way to handle that situation is to take a break or to slow down a great deal on the dhamma study. Make sure that you pause after you study anything about the dhamma and apply it to your life and experience. (I would also suggest you practice Buddhist meditation- walking, standing, and sitting- but I understand you already do that.) Hope this helps. Metta, James 50688 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:11am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear James, > (snipped) > Htoo: If you become clear it is OK. For quoting I am not expert in > quoting. > Tep: Oh, brother! What an excuse!! Sincerely, Tep ============== 50689 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:22am Subject: Re: Rob M's problem AND reply to PHIL! buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > James, I always think of you as a friend - just not a Dhamma > friend. I'm going to keep in touch with you off-list about non > Dhamma stuff because I really do find you interesting and I know > you're a very loving person. My upcoming absence from DSG is not > because of you, as you know, it's because of me. James: Thanks. I think of you as a friend also. Please do keep in touch, on of off-list, and good luck with the writing, your dhamma study, and your daily life. I still do wonder > why, if you consistently find A. Sujin to teach "the dregs" of > Dhamma or however it was you put it, you keep exposing yourself (so > to speak!) to her and her "followers", but that's your business. James: First, I don't believe I said that she teaches the "dregs of dhamma", and if I did I apologize. I didn't mean that. But, to answer your question, I hang out in this group because I believe the highest dhamma can be found here. My problem with K. Sujin and her followers is really very minor in the grand scope of things: I believe that they have unjustly cut out the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: Right Concentration. However, their following and support of the other seven factors is very strong- especially Right View and Right Mindfulness. So, it's not perfect here, and I get frustrated arguing what to me seems so obvious, but it's much better than other groups. Imagine weaknesses with all eight factors and unfamiliarity with the texts and you have a good picture of what most of the other groups are like! So, I want to be where the dhamma is highest- do you blame me? (Don't answer that- take a rest). Metta, James 50690 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:35am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 195 and commentary. buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo - Please clarify a few things for me. > Htoo: > We are dying soon. We are definitely dying soon. We are inevitably > dying very very soon. What is the point of grasping unprofitable > things and unprofitable view when we all are dying. > > Whoever attain 4th ruupa jhaana here? Tep: Are you suggesting that we grasp "profitable things" rather than unprofitable things, or not not grasping anything at all? But why suddenly mentioned the jhana ? > Htoo: > If you are sincere enough to admit so, are you sure that you attain > stated jhaana? If so sure, do you really know all those states when > you have this or that jhaana? > Tep: Why asked all that? >Htoo: >PS: This post has two pieces. One is reply to Nina that ruupa are > just going to vanish soon as soon as they arise. But later part is to >ALL DSG members whoever they are lurking or participating. Tep: I am not sure how to participate! Maybe I should learn to do the lurking instead. {:>)) {:--)) {:=)) Sincerely, Tep =========== 50691 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 561 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among the four different stocks of dhamma the first three have been discussed to some detail. There left the fourth stock. It is general stock of dhamma. Sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths Again the first two sub-stocks have been explained. There is another stock called aayatana dhamma. There are 12 aayatana dhamma. They are 1. ruupa-aayatana or ruupaayatana or form-sense-base 2. sadda-aayatana or saddaayatana or sound-sense-base 3. gandha-aayatana or gandhaayatana or smell-sense-base 4. rasa-aayatana or rasaayatana or taste-sense-base 5. photthabbaa-aayatana or photthabbaayatana or touch-sense-base 6. dhammaa-aayatana or dhammaayatana or dhamma-sense-base 7. cakkhu-aayatana or cakkhaayatana or eye-sense-base 8. sota-aayatana or sotaayatana or ear-sense-base 9. ghaana-aayatana or ghaanaayatana or nose-sense-base 10.jivhaa-aayatana or jivhaayatana or tongue-sense-base 11.kaayaa-aayatana or kaayaayatana or body-sense-base 12.mana-aayatana or manaayatana or mind-sense-base The first 6 sense-bases are external sense-bases or outter sense-base or bahiirani aayatana and latter 6 sense-bases are internal sense-bases or inner sense-base or ajjhattikaani aayatana. Aayatana means 'stretch' 'extent' 'reach' 'compass' 'region' 'sphere' 'locus' 'place' 'spot' 'position' 'occasion'. Aayatana also means 'exertion' 'doing' 'working' 'practice' 'performance'. Aayatana also means 'sphere of perception' 'sphere of sense in general' 'object of thought'. Aayatanas are the domain of cittas. The domain of devas is called devaayatana. So the domain of visible objects are called ruupaayatana etc and the domain of eye is called cakkaayatana and so on. These 6 pairs are actually arising in pair and only when they meet there arise consciousness or citta. Both are the domain of cittas. That is citta arises at visible object. Citta arises at eye. Citta arises at sound. Citta arises at ear. Citta arises at smell. Citta arises at nose. Citta arises at taste. Citta arises at tongue. Citta arises at touch. Citta arises at body. So these are the domain of consciousness or cittas. Dhammaayatana are domain of dhamma and they are also the domain of citta. Because citta visits that domain. Dhammaayatana are 16 sukhama ruupa or 16 subtle materials, 52 mental factors or 52 cetasikas, and nibbana. Manaayatana is also the domain of consciousness. There are 89 different consciousness or 89 cittas. They are manaayatana. Because they know the sense 'dhammaayatana'. Because of the manaayatana these dhammaayatana are known and so manaayatana itself is the domain of arising new and new cittas. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50692 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:34am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear James, > > > (snipped) > > > Htoo: If you become clear it is OK. For quoting I am not expert in > > quoting. Tep: Oh, brother! What an excuse!! Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, When you already know why did you ask specific evidential support like particular sutta or a sentence in it? I am not expert in such quoting. You yourself will find one day that facts are true according to what The Buddha preached. But it is quite logical that there were jhaanas even in the absence of Sammaa-sambuddha. There was very first jhaana-laabhii (those who attain jhaana) when the prince Siddhattha was just a child even when he could not walk yet. That jhaana-laabhii was the teacher of Suddhodana king, the father of Siddhattha. He was Hermit Deviimala. When he visited the palace and met Bodhisatta he called the child (Bodhisatta) come on boy. When He was called Bodhisatta went to him and stood on his forehead. You might say this is mythical and would ask for supportive evidence. Let that alone. The hermit laughed as he knew that that child would become a Sammaasambuddha. But later the hermit cried because he knew that he would die before arising of Sammaa-sambuddha and he would be reborn in aruupa jhaana bhuumi, where there is no ear, no eye and there is no chance of listening Buddha's Dhamma. So he cried. He also attain aruupa jhaana. Aruupa jhaana arise basing on ruupa jhaana. Without ruupa jhaana there is no way for aruupa jhaana to arise. The jhaanas that Deviimala had were all non-NEP jhaana. So not all ruupaavacara ruupa jhaanas are NEP-sammaa-samaadhi. NEP-sammaa-samaadhi only arise when magga cittas arise or phala citta arise or when lokuttaraa cittas arise. Otherwise any jhaana that do not attend nibbana are mundane jhaana. This also include ruupavacara ruupa jhaanas of arahats who had attained ruupa jhaanas. This also includes The Buddha. When ruupa jhaana cittas are arising there is no phala cittas. When phala cittas are arising there is no ruupa jhaana cittas. You would say *ONLY ruupa jhaanas are sammaa-samaadhi*. Even though the fact seems true one need clear vision on what actually are happening when those consciousness arise. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50693 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:48am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear James, > > > (snipped) > > > Htoo: If you become clear it is OK. For quoting I am not expert in > > quoting. > > > > Tep: Oh, brother! What an excuse!! in imitating James.> > LOL!! Don't be sorry, that's a pretty good imitation! :-) Metta, James 50694 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhatrue Hi Htoo and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > wrote: > > > Dear James, > > > > > (snipped) > > > > > Htoo: If you become clear it is OK. For quoting I am not expert > in > > > quoting. > > > > > > > Tep: Oh, brother! What an excuse!! succeeded > > in imitating James.> > > > > LOL!! Don't be sorry, that's a pretty good imitation! :-) > > Metta, > James And Htoo, Tep is right. You can't be expected to be believed unless you can say where you get your information (either in a quote or just citing the source). And saying you are not an expert in quoting isn't an excuse. If you can read the book, you can quote it or at least give the title of it. Metta, James 50695 From: nina Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:14am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I robmoult Hi All, My post drew some very considered responses from many of my friends. I am very appreciative. In general, the responses fall into three categories: - comments on my "ranking" of sources - comments on my example of the seventeen thought moments - comments on my concern over my critical attitude toward Dhamma speakers / text In this post, I would like to clarify my view on the first topic; ranking of sources. In my post, I wrote: ----- I tend to classify the idea according to: - This idea was articulated in the Suttas (lately, I have been reading a book which identifies Suttas as "early" or "late") - This idea was first articulated in the Abhidhamma texts (sometimes, I even break out the Kathavatthu as it is a later text) - This idea was first recorded by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhi Magga or in the commentaries - This idea was first articulated by Acaria Anuruddha in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha - This idea was first articulated by Ledi Sayadaw / Mahasi Sayadaw / modern writer ----- I view the Pali Suttas as the "ultimate authority". The book that I have been reading, "Studies in the Origins of Buddhism" by G. C. Pande, categorizes specific Suttas as being "early", "late", "composite" or "unknown". This is done according to linguistic analysis and the development of ideas. While I find this an interesting diversion, I do not take much stock in this differentiation. For me, all of the Pali Suttas represent the closest that we have to the actual teachings of the Buddha. I see the Pail Vinaya as having equal authority as the Pali Suttas. My view on the Abhidhamma is a little less black and white. About one hundred years after the death of the Buddha, the original Sangha split into the Mahasanghikas (who developed into the Mahayana school) and the Sthaviravadins. A hundred years later, the Vatsiputriya (which later split further into four more sects) and the Haimavatika split from the Sthaviravadins. In the middle of the third century after the Buddha's death, the remaining Sthaviravadins split into the Sarvastivadins and the Vibhajyavadins. The Vibhajyavadins were made up of the Kasyapiya, the Mahisasaka, the Dharmaguptika and finally the Theravadins. In fact, when the Kathavatthu was written, there were eighteen rival schools of Buddhism (the stated purpose of the Kathavatthu is to refute all but the Theravadin view). The Suttas and Vinaya of these various schools are quite consistent. However, by this time, there were many different versions of Abhidhamma. Today, we have the Theravadin version of the Abhidhamma, the Sarvastivadin version of the Abhidhamma (often called Abhidharma) as well as a few pieces of other versions. The Abhidhamma and the Abhidharma cover generally the same types of topics but differ significantly in details. Warder and Watanabe suggest that they did not evolve from a common text, but developed independently. They suggest that the Matikas, which provide the overall structure at the heart of the Abhidhamma (and the Abhidharma as well, I think), were from the time of the Buddha. However, the Matikas are more like a table of contents. Even the most orthodox Theravadin view (as espoused by Buddhaghosa) does not attribute the Abhidhamma texts directly to the Buddha. According to Buddhaghosa, the Buddha taught the complete Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa heaven and returned to earth daily to give Sariputta the gist of what had been taught in the past twenty four hours. It was then up to Sariputta to fill in the details and teach his 500 students. So the texts that we have today are the result of Sariputta's teaching, inspired by the Buddha but not the direct words of the Buddha. In the Abhidhamma of other schools, various texts are directly attributed to Sariputta and to other disciples of the Buddha. So what is my view on the Abhidhamma? The fact that the Abhidhamma and the Abhidharma vary dramatically in content makes me nervous (in contrast, the Suttas and Vinaya remain quite consistent over time). For this reason, I view the Suttas and Vinaya as having higher authority. I do not reject the Theravada Abhidhamma. I simply view the Suttas and Vinaya as a higher authority. Next in line is Buddhaghosa. This great commentator lived about 1000 years after the Buddha. I accept Buddhaghosa's claim that he was primarily a compiler of older texts as he prepared his commentaries and the Visuddhi Magga. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that some of his source materials date back to the time of the Buddha (though I suspect that providing an accurate chronology of 1000 years of reference materials was not possible). I see Buddhaghosa as reflecting the Theravadin view at the time he wrote. Just as the Elder Tissa (attributed authoriship of the Kathavatthu), I see Buddhaghosa as a "defender of the faith". I do not reject Buddhaghosa. I simply view the original Abhidhamma texts as a higher authority with the Suttas and Vinaya as the highest authority. We now move ahead about five hundred years to Acariya Anuruddha. To judge his work, the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, we must consider its purpose. By this time, the Abhidhamma together with its commentaries and sub-commentaries had grown unwieldy and daunting to the beginner. Acariya Anuruddha summarized thousands of pages of source texts into a concise 50 pages in Pali. In today's publishing world, it would be called "Abhidhamma for Dummies", but Acariya Anuruddha called it instead, "A compendium of things found in the Abhidhamma" or Abhidhammattha Sangaha. If you were given the task of summarizing thousands of pages of source material into fifty pages, you would have to start by defining a very tight structure for your compendium. The structure of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha does not reflect the source texts; it is a construct added by Acariya Anuruddha. I genuinely believe that Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammattha Sangaha as an introduction to the Abhidhamma with the expectation that the student would then proceed to study the original Abhidhamma texts. Unfortunately, many people stop after reading the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and say that they have studied the Abhidhamma. These people misinterpret the tight structure of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha as reflecting the original Abhidhamma texts. Unfortunately, the structure itself starts to take on a life of its own (such as the closed-ended lists of cittas and cetasikas as well as the seventeen thought moments... but that is the subject of my "Reply Part II"). I do not reject Acariya Anuruddha. I view his Abhidhammattha Sangaha as a summary with an artificial structure. Modern writers such as Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw and others are trying to reach out to a modern audience and help them put Dhamma into their lives. Their writings are full of interpretations and editorial material that is supplemental to the original texts. This additional material is very valuable to guide understanding. However, the ultimate authority still goes back to the Suttas and Vinaya. Some writers such as Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nina clearly reflect this in their writings. Most are far less clear. In summary, I view the Suttas and the Vinaya as the core. There are progressive layers of "additional materials" added (Abhidhamma, Buddhaghosa, Acariya Anuruddha, modern writers). I am not saying that the additional material is wrong or in conflict with the core. The additional material simply adds to the core; the additional material expands upon the core into areas previously uncovered. My point is that when I hear or read an idea, I tend to place it according to how close it is to the core. I am sure that this post is going to generate a lot of feedback. I am bracing myself :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 50697 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- I > Dear Swee Boon, > > Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without right > concentration things will never be seen very clearly. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, Your remarks bring the focus back to perhaps the most the central Dhamma-question of all; 'What is right concentration?' Is it concentration that arises; with ignorance and wrong view; with ignorance but without wrong; without ignorance but also without right view, or; only with right view? Is right concentration fleeting, or; does it persist for a measurable period of time? Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of control? Is the object of right concentration a concept or; a paramattha dhamma? Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have progressed further along the path) ? Ken H 50698 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:19pm Subject: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part II robmoult Hi All, In Part I, I commented on my "ranking" of sources. In my original message, I used the example of a Dhamma speaker attributing the seventeen thought moments to the Buddha as being incorrect. In this post, I will give my perspective on the genesis of the seventeen thought moments. I welcome new information (references, etc.) that could cause me to change my view. From what I have read, the idea of a thought moment as a measure (citta = one, rupa = seventeen) was first articulated in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. The detailed structure of the thought process (seventeen thought moments starting with bhavanga, etc.) is also first found in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Individual thought moments are named and described in the Visuddhi Magga but not linked into a structured process (again, the Abhidhammattha Sangaha introduced the structure). According to Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines, the thought process and the terms for the thought moments are not found in the Suttas, except for the term "javana" which is used in the Patisambhida Magga. Nyanatiloka also explains that even in the Abhidhamma texts, the term "javana" and "bhavanga" are only twice or thrice briefly mentioned in the Patthana. Of course, we have the famous description of the thought process from the Honeyball Sutta, "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." The seventeen thought moments as laid out in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha does not conflict with the Suttas. Nevertheless, attributing the idea of the precise ordered sequence of seventeen thought moments to the Buddha is not correct. At least in my opinion. I would welcome it if somebody could point me to a Sutta reference (or an Abhidhamma reference) which describes this precise ordered sequence of seventeen thought moments. Metta, Rob M :-) 50699 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:29pm Subject: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part III robmoult Hi All, I consider Part I and Part II to be "background information" to put my problem into context. My problem is really my critical attitude toward Dhamma speakers / text. The word critical has two meanings; "discerning" and "finding fault with". The first meaning can often be kusala (accompanied by panna) and the second is always akusala (dosa-mula). Unfortunately, my "critical attitude" often falls into the second bucket resulting in unpleasant mental feeling. James, Nina and others have given me some advice which I greatly appreciate. I need to reflect on this advice for a while before responding. Metta, Rob M :-) 50700 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo (Swee and KenH) - Below is a coded message that only Htoo himself understands. > Htoo: > Dear Tep, > > Ha ha ha ha. Apology for my inappropriate behaviour but I could not > help laughing. It was lobha that made me laugh. Ha ha ha ha. Soaking > because of backward movement. > > NEP is simultaneous. > > What here discussing is all non-NEP things. All are mundane paths. > That is why understanding is the first. But in real NEP, all 8 > factors arise simultaneously. [smile:-)) real NEP, you would argue > whether there are unreal NEP, ha ha ha ha.] > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Tep: Please tell me what you were talking about. Thanks. Regards, Tep ========= 50701 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:39pm Subject: Re: Lurker friend of Rob M . . . robmoult Hi KH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "khcheah33" wrote: > Hi Sarah, Rob M, and all DSG friends, > It's me whom Bro Rob M mentioned in his post # Msg 50630. > > In reality, I figure I'm still learning something new about the Dhamma > every day. So you see, I'm still a novice compared to many of the DSG > brothers-&-sisters-in-the-Dhamma. On the study of the Abhidhamma, I've > been attending 'crash' courses by Dr Tin Monh, Ven Tejavudha of > Myanmar (& also Rob M's class too) the last 3 years. And at present, > in the absence of Venerable Tejavudha (he's back in Myanmar), > I'm 'forced' to head the Abhidhamma discussion group (a few adults) > joting down some discussion points and helping to print out some > notes. (Ven Tejavudha will be back in KL B. M. Vihara towards end of > Dec '05.) ===== Clearly, conditions are reciprocal :-) Our meeting at the Vihara has led to both of us "rejoining" DSG. I hope that your husband and wife friends who were listening to us chat will also join DSG as well! The best way to encourage me to share is to ask me a question :-) I am sure that I speak for the entire DSG community when I encourage you to share the questions raised by your Abhidhamma Study Group here on DSG. I guarantee you that you will get multiple answers! Metta, Rob M :-) 50702 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:42pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions buddhistmedi... Hi KenH (Swee and Htoo) - It is getting more interesting. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: (snipped) > > Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, > > Your remarks bring the focus back to perhaps the most the central > Dhamma-question of all; 'What is right concentration?' > > Is it concentration that arises; > with ignorance and wrong view; > with ignorance but without wrong; > without ignorance but also without right view, or; > only with right view? > > Is right concentration fleeting, or; > does it persist for a measurable period of time? > > Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of > control? > > Is the object of right concentration a concept or; > a paramattha dhamma? > > Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; > are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have > progressed further along the path) ? > > Ken H You asked difficult questions. Can you give us your version of the answers first (to make sure that they make sense to you)? Regards, Tep ======== 50703 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:33pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 I like your selection of suttas and other literature, Tep. Mahacattarisaka sutta in particular is one of my favorites (in the top 25 for sure). The section you quoted discusses the distinction between the two kinds of Right View, mundane and supramundane. The commentary elaborates on the meaning: "two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates the formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of the defilements." (MA, BB trans., note 1100 in MLDB). I like that -- "Right view...investigates." It makes it sound like right view is an impersonal activity or process, not at all like "Right view is the spiritually correct opinion that a person holds." Indeed, the Pali for "right view of insight" is vipassanaasammaaditthii, which is a clear viewing of the tilakkhana. The word BB translates as "investigate" is pariviima.msati, which may also be glossed as "examine". What I see in the suttas, then, is that (mundane) right view is seeing things as they are, rather than having correct opinions or good conceptual, intellectual understanding of the doctrine. Two other questions to consider... 1. Do you think of sammaditthi more along the lines of a cetasika (i.e., a paramattha dhamma that arises and passes away in a flash), or something softer like a generalized right thinking about things? 2. What do you see as the distinction between sammaditthi and yathabhutan pajanati? Metta, Dan > Hi, Dan D. , > > The suttas are the Buddha's words. So I am glad to know that you have > some interest in them. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > So, what have you seen in the suttas? > > > > Tep: The following is what I have found. > > Samma-ditthi > ------------------- > > "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, > knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with > regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of > practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right > view. [Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8: Magga-vibhanga Sutta] > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is > right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the > acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without > fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. ...One tries to abandon > wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is > mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is > one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right > effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view. [MN 117: > Maha-cattarisaka Sutta] > > > Right Understanding > ------------------------------ > > Tep: There is a term like full understanding(parrinna), but there is no > such a thing like the "right understanding" : I cannot find it from the > suttas. The words "clear understanding", on the other hand, is Bhikkhu > Bodhi's : > > "The right view of the Four Noble Truths develops in two stages. The > first is called the right view that accords with the truths (saccanulomika > samma ditthi); the second, the right view that penetrates the truths > (saccapativedha samma ditthi). To acquire the right view that accords > with the truths requires a clear understanding of their meaning and > significance in our lives". > > Knowing and Seeing Things the Way they Really Are: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > Tep: This is 'yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana' which is one insight > knowledge in the 18 Principal Insights. > > PTS: 'yathabhutan pajanati' he knows as an absolute truth or in reality. > > "In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as > they really are (yathabhutananadassana). Hence, to know things as > they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. > Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to > uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain insight into their > qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all- > embracing identification with the All, but towards disengagement and > detachment, release from the All. The cultivation of wisdom in no > way "undermines" concrete phenomena by reducing them to > appearances, nor does it treat them as windows opening to some > fundamental ground. Instead it investigates and discerns, in order to > understand things as they are: "And what does one understand as it > really is? One understands: Such is form, such its arising and passing > away. Such is feeling... perception... formations... consciousness, such > its arising and passing away." "When one sees, 'All formations are > impermanent, all are suffering, everything is not self,' one turns away > from suffering: this is the path to purity." [Dhamma and Non- duality by > Bhikkhu Bodhi] > > Tep: There are several suttas that teaches 'yatha-bhuta-nana- > dassana' , for example SN XII.23 Upanisa Sutta. > > "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell > you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who > knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? > > 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is > feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are > fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' > > "The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in > this way. The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its > prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its > prerequisite? Release(vimutti). [endquote] > > > Tep: I hope the above "presentation" is enough to wet your appetite, > and you may read the suttas for more detail. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======= 50704 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:33pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Thank you very much for your cheerful support for the novice! > > > > Tep: Oh, brother! What an excuse!! succeeded > > in imitating James.> > > > > LOL!! Don't be sorry, that's a pretty good imitation! :-) > > Metta, > James Warm regards, Tep ========== 50705 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:05pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part III onco111 Hi Rob, I'm sorry to hear about your problem. On the other hand, I'm glad that you recognize it as a problem. I struggle with much the same issue -- but my critical attitude is more pronounced and my knowledge of the doctrine not nearly as broad or detailed as yours! Many people take pride in a critical attitude. It can be helpful in winning material gains or power, but, as you note, it is not appropriate in studying Dhamma. Buddhagosa discusses various temperaments (Vism II, 76 +-), and lists the intelligent and hating temperaments as parallel: "One of intelligent temperament is parallel to one of hating temperament because understanding is strong when profitable [kamma] occurs in one of hating temperement, owing to its special qualities being near to those of hate. For, in an unprofitable way, hate is daffected and does not hold to its object, and so, in a profitable way, is understanding. Hate seeks out only unreal faults, while understanding seeks out only real faults. And hate occurs in the mode of condemning living beings, while understanding occurs in the mode of condemning formations." I don't see anything hateful or overly critical in your postings, so I leave that entirely to you to judge. But critical attitude (hating temperament) would never be a surprise in someone with a cutting intellect. Appropriate meditation subjects? "The four divine abidings and four color kasinas are eight suitable for one of hating temperament (i.e., one who finds fault)." [Vism III, 121] "Mindfulness of death, the recollection of peace, the defining the four elements, and the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, are four suitable for one of intelligent temperament." [ibid.] Metta, Dan P.S. Please don't think I'm calling you hateful! Only that your desription of your "critical attitude" seems akin to the "fault- seeking" described by Buddhagosa... P.P.S. Feel free to think I'm calling you intelligent! But, I fear, a desire to hear this is in large part what underlies a critical attitude. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I consider Part I and Part II to be "background information" to put my > problem into context. My problem is really my critical attitude toward > Dhamma speakers / text. > > The word critical has two meanings; "discerning" and "finding fault > with". The first meaning can often be kusala (accompanied by panna) and > the second is always akusala (dosa-mula). > > Unfortunately, my "critical attitude" often falls into the second > bucket resulting in unpleasant mental feeling. > > James, Nina and others have given me some advice which I greatly > appreciate. I need to reflect on this advice for a while before > responding. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 50706 From: Tom Rathborne Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? tommer_w Hi Sarah, On Mon, Sep 26, 2005 at 08:05:51AM +0100, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tom R*, > > Welcome to DSG from me too- Thanks for your welcome and attention! > --- Tom Rathborne wrote: > > Eek, I wrote a response to this but it disappeared, possibly > > because I sent it before joining the group. Perhaps our kind > > moderators have it. If so, we may get to see what my previous > > draft looked like. > .... S: Sorry, the mods don't have any magic wand to retrieve posts > sent by non-members or posts lost in cyber-space for any other > reason:-(. I used to lose lots of my own until I eventually realised > that one could use a 'drafts' word document which I recommend for > long or detailed posts:-). I only lost that because I typed my reply in the web form. Now that I have joined the list, I can use my usual email program, which automagically archives every email I send and receive. > I'd love to join in the seclusion thread with you and Ken H, but am > trying to tie up other threads, so I'll leave you to it for now. I > see you're already having a great discussion and look f/w to reading > your latest post later. I'll look forward to that too. Without attachment. Please continue to do the necessary. > Where do you live, Tom? Anything else to share about your background > obviously keen interest in the Dhamma? I live in Toronto, Canada, with two cats and many lovely neighbours. I seem nice and strange. As I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, my curiosity about the nature of reality led me to the Dhamma, but it is my continual testing of the Dhamma through practice, and finding that it never fails, that keeps me with it. > Ken H already referred you to Useful Posts in the files for 'Seclusion'. > Maybe other sections like 'Jhana and Nibbana', 'Lay people-Jhanas' are > also relevant. Indeed, 46632 reveals that the requisites for forest life are "Moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment." ... which is very good to know. The Useful Posts are actually useful. How rare to find something labelled as it really is! > For the Pali for the sutta, if no one has helped yet, try: > http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html Thanks. I will have to shake the monkey wrench around inside my computer to get the fonts working ... oh and learn Pali, to be able to read it. > I'll look f/w to chatting to you later -- probably after our trip. Have a lovely trip! > *We have a few Toms now who've joined the list, so I hope you don't > mind being addressed as Tom R? Not at all; in fact, I was 'the second Tom' at my first job, and the label 'Tom R' quickly to 'Tommer' for ease of speaking. Thie nickname has stuck so I answer to 'Tommer' or 'Tom R' just as easily as 'Tom'. The next Tom who joined that company was assigned the name 'George'. ;-) Metta, Tom -- -- Tom Rathborne tomr@... http://www.aceldama.com/~tomr/ People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson 50707 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What does it take ? kenhowardau Dear Venerable Samahita, Thank you for your reply. -------- KH: > >We all know of Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., who are kind- hearted and who engage in quiet, secluded contemplation. But their sila and samadhi will never lead to panna (pertaining to the Middle Way), will it? > > V.S: > Mundane undertanding, but not supramundane Noble Understanding are accessible to all who keep the precepts also from other faiths... -------- I take your point: a degree of mundane understanding is possible for people who have never heard the Dhamma. But I think you will agree it can only be a conventional sort of understanding - it cannot be mundane insight (satipatthana). People who are not Dhamma-students can know impermanence in a conventional way. They can also understand some aspects of dukkha. But they can't appreciate the subtle aspects of dukkha, and (in my opinion) they can't have any meaningful understanding whatsoever when it comes to anatta. A physicist, for example, can claim there is no self, but he can't answer the obvious question; "Then what is there?" Only a Buddha can discover ultimate reality and directly know that everything (whether conditioned or unconditioned) bears the intrinsic characteristic, anatta. With respect, Ken H 50708 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? robmoult Hi Tom R, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tom Rathborne wrote: > I live in Toronto, Canada, with two cats and many lovely neighbours. > I seem nice and strange. > > As I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, my curiosity about > the nature of reality led me to the Dhamma, but it is my continual > testing of the Dhamma through practice, and finding that it never > fails, that keeps me with it. > ===== Welcome to DSG from me as well! I have just returned from a hiatus. I was born and raised in Toronto (Scarborough) but now I live in Malaysia. I started practicing meditation in Toronto more that 20 years ago, but at that time it was Zen / Ch'an. Metta, Rob M :-) 50709 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part III robmoult Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > > "Mindfulness of death, the recollection of peace, the defining the > four elements, and the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, are > four suitable for one of intelligent temperament." [ibid.] Hmmm... "Preception of repulsiveness in nutriment"... that one sounds good to me... might even help me lose some of my extra weight! :-) Seriously though, the problem with that kind of meditation is finding the right teacher. I think that I need to increase my metta meditation (we are getting back to James' advice). Metta, Rob M :-) 50710 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:48pm Subject: What are the Causes of Egoism ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What causes this Blind Belief in an Unchanging Identity ? At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, when what exists, by clinging to what, by adhering to what, by insisting dogmatically on what, by misinterpreting what, does this 'personality belief', this 'same identity' view: 'I am this & that...' arise ? Venerable Sir, our teachings are rooted in the Buddha, who knows & sees! When there is form, Bhikkhus, by clinging to form, by attaching to form, this identity view: 'I am this form...' arises! Furthermore: When there is feeling, perception, mental construction & consciousness, by clinging to, by attaching to feeling, perception, mental construction & consciousness, this identity view: 'I am this & that mental phenomena...' arises & remains! Understanding this, Bhikkhus, a well instructed Noble Disciple experiences disgust towards form, disgust towards feeling, disgust towards perception, disgust towards mental construction, & disgust towards consciousness itself! Experiencing disgust, he becomes disillusioned! Through disillusion his mind is released. When it is released, one instantly knows: This mind is liberated, and one understands: Extinguished is birth, this Noble Life is all completed, done is what should be done, there is no state of being beyond this... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 22:55 III 185 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 50711 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? sarahprocter... Hi Tom R, (The rest of the Tom club, Steve & all) --- Tom Rathborne wrote: > I live in Toronto, Canada, with two cats and many lovely neighbours. > I seem nice and strange. .... S: OK, to make the point about the 'Tom club here', another 'recent' Tom is from Toronto too, Tom A: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/47115 (Hi Tom A, Tom P (my nephew), Tom W (who helps Nina and others behind the scenes) and any other Toms, hope to hear from you all too! I seem to remember another Tom in Taiwan...:-/?) .... > As I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, my curiosity about > the nature of reality led me to the Dhamma, but it is my continual > testing of the Dhamma through practice, and finding that it never > fails, that keeps me with it. .... S: Good...it's for testing as you say. .... > Indeed, 46632 reveals that the requisites for forest life are > "Moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, > mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment." > ... which is very good to know. ... S: Yes, not for all. (see accounts of Meghiya in U.P.) .... > > The Useful Posts are actually useful. How rare to find something > labelled as it really is! ... S: Ah, a little controversial like most things here and not all agree, but we try our best:). .... > > > For the Pali for the sutta, if no one has helped yet, try: > > http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html > > Thanks. I will have to shake the monkey wrench around inside my > computer to get the fonts working ... oh and learn Pali, to be able to > read it. ... S: I hadn't read Steve's helpful post when I replied. He gives the Pali. Steve, I think it's similar to the sutta we discussed when we met that Andrew raised -- for those with the accumulations and ability... .... > > > I'll look f/w to chatting to you later -- probably after our trip. > > Have a lovely trip! ... S: Thank you....they are not easy trips with very long bus rides on Indian roads to various holy places in freezing buses (used to be open window, hot, dusty buses - one extreme to the other), a large group of people - over 100 with long queues for food, toilets (when and IF they're found),immigration and so on. Usually most people get sick -- last trip I was very sick for the entire trip-- BUT a really wonderful opportunity to pay respect at the Holy Places with lovely people and Dhamma discussions along the way. I'll try to send some e-cards en route.... .... > > *We have a few Toms now who've joined the list, so I hope you don't > > mind being addressed as Tom R? > > Not at all; in fact, I was 'the second Tom' at my first job, and the > label 'Tom R' quickly to 'Tommer' for ease of speaking. Thie nickname > has stuck so I answer to 'Tommer' or 'Tom R' just as easily as 'Tom'. > The next Tom who joined that company was assigned the name 'George'. ;-) ... S: Tommer is neat too:). Perhaps we'll have to consider addressing the next Tom, Rob or Harry who comes along here as 'George' too:-). Metta, Sarah ======== 50712 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 283 Conceit -maana (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] The “Book of Analysis” classifies conceit in many different ways in order to show different aspects. We read, for example, about “self-disrespect conceit” (omåna, §881). When someone has selfdisdain or self-contempt he still upholds himself and finds himself important. There is also “over-estimating conceit”. Someone may erroneously think that he has attained jhåna or realized stages of wisdom and have conceit about it. We read in the Book of Analysis (Chapter 17, §882) about over-estimating conceit (adhimåna): * "Therein, what is “over-estimating conceit”? In not having reached, there is perception of having reached; in not having done, there is perception of having done; in not having attained, there is perception of having attained; in not having realized, there is perception of having realized; that which is similar, conceit, being conceited, the state of being conceited, loftiness, haughtiness, (flaunting a) flag, assumption, desire of consciousness for a banner. This is called over-estimating conceit." ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50713 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:22pm Subject: Re: Meditation retreats for lay people bhikkhu_ekamuni Regarding: Modern Meditation retreats especially for lay people; http://retreat-infos.de/ http://www.ubakhin.com/ http://www.suanmokkh.org http://www.Dhamma.Org/alphalist.htm http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/library/pdfs/Asia_Retreats.pdf : - ] Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 50714 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:32pm Subject: Tom R and anyone else without a pic in the DSG photo album (was Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea?) sarahprocter... Hi Tom R & all without a pic in the album, by way of a p.s to my last message -- I just had a quick look at yr website which I see is even labelled as 'Tom R's website'. Do you have a pic you can add to the DSG photo album too? If you don't have an up-to-date one, James or Chris can always help you or anyone else rescue an old pic from a website or anywhere else on the net or even from a driving licence, I believe, if you ask them. James can even remove wrinkles, add muscles or give you a disguise if it helps:)). If old members would like to share an up-to-date specimen of ageing and burnt out rupas/family/significant others pic too, pls do:) As Chris always reminds everyone: "...No mater whether frail or firm, With none excepted, long or big Or middle-sized or short or small Or thick, or those seen or unseen, Or whether dwelling far or near,...." We'll be glad to see you in the album! Metta, Sarah ======= 50715 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 0:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation retreats for lay people - a relatively modern idea? kenhowardau Hi Tom R, --------------------- <. . .> T: > 46801 contains a great description of the seclusion of liberation. 46741 is as I was thinking, about anapanasati, mindfulness of breathing: "Therefore, for the yogavacara who does not leave his home it is not very easy to develop it, since he is disturbed by the noises of women, men, elephants and horses." ------------------------- Jhana is a perennial discussion-topic here at DSG. I am told that leaving the household life comes late in the practice. Before that, the practitioner has to develop an almost supernatural ability to distinguish kusala (wholesomeness) from akusala (unwholesomeness) and to pursue the former while resisting the latter. The concentration that naturally arises with kusala consciousness is responsible for a feeling of calm. And it is only when calmness has been developed to an extraordinary level that the homeless life becomes necessary. But enough of that for now! ------------------------------ T: > Indeed, I have reviewed the Maha-satipatthana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html and it is as you say. Mindfulness of dhamma and the eightfold path is essential in every situation. "... With the abandoning of pleasure & pain â€" as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress â€" he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." Which reminded me of the next sentence in 46741: "If he develops it in the forest he can attain the fourth jhaana. He can make this jhaana a basis for the contemplation of conditioned dhammas and reach arahatship, which is the highest fruit." --------------------------- Sorry for all the snipping, but there is so much to discuss in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. I'd like to briefly mention a few points: 1) Jhana, with breath as object, is only one of many ways in which satipatthana can be practised. The bulk of the sutta describes other, non-jhana-related, instances of satipatthana. Even in the Buddha's day, the vast majority of disciples attained by satipatthana on its own (without jhana). 2) The sutta is not a prescription for practice by trial and error. It simply describes how and when right mindfulness can arise - provided it has been conditioned to arise. Trying is not one of the conditions. 3) The concentration described in the sutta as one of the potential objects for satipatthana is supramundane right concentration of the Ariyan Eightfold Path. This is not the same as the mundane right concentration that experiences those objects. In the former case, concentration is always at the level of jhana - regardless of whether the disciple was a jhana meditator or not. In the latter case I doubt (not sure) it is ever at the level of jhana. ------------------------- <. . .> T: > In the meantime, when the concept known as 'shouting' is being experienced there are, in my experience of conditioned dhammas, a turbulence between hearing-consciounsess and volitional contact, which conditions my yet-untamed mind to attend to the perception of a sound, which interrupts my meditation. < snip> -------------------------- Thank you for describing your practice: it was very interesting. I think it might be similar to that of many other DSG members. To my mind, however, Dhamma practice is something that arises by conditions. For most of us worldlings, conditions allow at best, for occasional moments of dana and sila, which include moments of well- intentioned Dhamma study. When the Dhamma has been thoroughly studied and understood (whenever that might be) there will inevitably be satipatthana. But I am in no hurry: after all, it won't happen to me - there are only dhammas here. :-) -------------------------------------------- T: > > > P.S. Do whatever it takes > > --------------- KH: > > Thanks, I take that to mean that the dhammas, panna (right > > understanding) and sati (mindfulness) should do whatever it takes. > T: > Today at lunch, a bee landed on my companion's hair. I said calmly," don't panic, a bee just landed on your hair". She tried to brush it away, but missed it. I shooed it away and it flew to the window, towards the sunlight, buzzing up and down, trying to go around the glass. It flew to the bottom of the window and I put my hand down in front of it. The bee crawled onto my finger and I took it outside. It flew away. ---------------------------------------------- Yes, but I was not saying there couldn't be wholesome volition: I was just saying there was no self that controls volition. In the time it took for the bee episode to play out, untold billions of volitional moments arose and fell away purely by conditions. Some of them were kusala, some akusala and some merely vipaka. How could we know which was which - it is the nearest thing to impossible! Thanks to the Buddha, however, it is at least possible. :-) Ken H 50716 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Tep, --- kenhowardau wrote: > BTW, thanks for the word parinna (full understanding), which I have > just now looked up in the dictionary. I don't know how to say this, > but parinna, in each of its three forms, does seem to be panna (amoha > cetasika). Corrections welcome. ... S: Yes. The 3 parinnas refer to stages of insight (vipassana). Vipassana is panna developed to the degree that clearly understands the characteristics of realities according to these stages. In the Mulapariyaya Sutta, DN1, we read that the ignorant worldling conceives all kinds of objects, such as the elements and people, wrongly with self-views and delights in them. “.....he delights in earth. What is the reason? Because it has not been fully understood by him, I declare. In the commentary we read that ‘He who fully understands earth understands it by the three types of full understanding.” These refer to the 3 kinds of pari~n~naa (full understanding). 1. ~Naata-pari~n~naa (full understanding of the known) refers to the first stage of insight, i.e naamaruupa vavatthaana (or nama-rupa pariccheda nana). 2. Tiira.na pari~n~naa (full understanding of scrutinization/as investigating) refers to insight/vipassana from the third stage up to anuloma knowledge. 3. Pahaanapari~n~naa (full understanding by abandoning) refers to the understanding of the ariyan path. Sub-commentary note (Bodhi transl): “Therein, the ‘full understanding of the known’ is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi). For this understands the dhammas of the three planes, delimiting them as internal and external and defining their characteristics, functions, etc; thereby it makes it known, understood, evident, that ‘this is the plane of insight.’ “Here[S: in the context of the sutta] it should be understood in terms of the earth element. The ‘full understanding of scrutinization’ understands the five clinging aggregates in their true nature as impermanent, (suffering and non-self), by delimiting them through insight-comprehension and scrutinizing their modes of impermanence, etc, together with their accompaniments. “The ‘supreme path’ is the path of arahatship, for this abandons desire and lust without remainder; or it is the supramundane path (in general). Either is the full understanding of abandoning, which in the abstract sense is the wisdom which abandons (defilements) by eradicating them (samucchedapahaanakaarii pa~n~naa).” S: I expect you’ve already seen Nyantiloka’s dictionary extract, but for others, here’s the link: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/parinnaa.htm Metta, Sarah ======= 50717 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lurker friend of Rob M . . . sarahprocter... Hi KH (RobM & James), Thank you for so promptly giving us such a good introduction. Anumodana in all your dhamma activities. --- khcheah33 wrote: > To Bro Rob M : Welcome back, Bro Rob. Guess it's not so much of my > prompting you to write again; maybe your work has been keeping you > busy. You see, as I mentioned to you, every one of us in DSG is really > missing your contributions. Hope you can just find some spare moments > to share your thoughts with us. ... S: Thank you again for encouraging him -- everyone is happy when Rob's around. (Hope that's not too much of a generalisation, James - at least you and I are:)). .... > To Sarah & all : Sorry for 'lying low' and sorry too for not having > much to contribute at the moment. My Abhidhamma classmates may have > some questions to pose & given the 'green light' I hope to write in > again so that the learned brothers-&-sisters-in-DSG will be able to > help out with some views and comments. ... S: We'll be delighted to hear from them. I'm sure you're all being very modest and will also be able to help with some of our questions too. Here's one to start with: what did you think of Rob M's problem? I'd be interested to hear your opinion and that of any of your classmates. Metta, Sarah ========== 50718 From: "khcheah33" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:25am Subject: Lurker friend of Rob M(2) khcheah33 Hi Rob M, I like the way you phrase your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Clearly, conditions are reciprocal :-) -------- KH : hmmm... :-) :-) very well put, Rob M. Gotta agree on this. ======== Rob M : > Our meeting at the Vihara has led to both of us "rejoining" DSG. I > hope that your husband and wife friends who were listening to us > chat will also join DSG as well! > -------- KH : Oh yes, they have started visiting the DSG forum website. Hope this first step will lead to another. I'll try to get them to sign up too. Since we are on this topic, actually I've given the DSG url (web address) to quite a number of BMV devotees. Let's hope that they are not just the so-called 'lurker-type', doing some casual read-up as a guest and stop there. ======== Rob M : > The best way to encourage me to share is to ask me a question :-) > > I am sure that I speak for the entire DSG community when I > encourage you to share the questions raised by your Abhidhamma > Study Group here on DSG. I guarantee you that you will get > multiple answers! > Metta, > Rob M :-) -------- KH : Sadhu sadhu sadhu to you first, Bro Rob. The metta you have been radiating across to the entire DSG community as well as to other fellow dhamma devotees do have its results. I'm sure other DSG dhamma friends will agree too. Many of us do look forward to your posts. ..on multiple answers... it helps & I look forward to that. From what I've read, one will put across his views in a certain manner, another may express his differently. . . 'one opinion' may just hit & light up one's inner 'panna-bulb'and eureka!. . . we've helped to put another dhamma seeker on the right track. Presently I'm already getting some 'related answers' for my dhamma friends through the many dsg articles that have been posted here & I myself have yet 'to pose' a qtn here. Will be doing that soon. BTW, thanks for the encouragement. ***** KH Cheah p.s. My apologies to all for my awkward english words usage. Thank you. 50719 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing Dear James and Tep, All I have be writting are almost all that comes from my mind, which is linked with my memory when I read, heard, learned things in my past. I do not have any immediate access to any reference with the exception of abhidhammatthasangaha. Even that book has not been touched for a long time. I only consult it when there arise problems that have been raised by some people. Otherwise all my words are almost from my memory with only a few exception. My references? Well, 1. abhidhammatthasangaha by Venerable Anuruddhaa 2. Buddhavamsa 3. Jinatthapakaasanii 4. Jaatakas ( 5 volumes of 550 Nipatti;actual number is less) 5. Dhammapada 6. Paritta 7. some volumes of visuddhimagga 8. Samvegavatthudiipanii 9. Dhamma preachings by many different Sayadaws 10.Dhamma books by Mahasii Sayadaw 11.Books on religions by different authors 12.personal experiences 13.own thoughts 14.dictionaries (Oxford, PTS,..) 15.many others. With Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo and Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > > wrote: > > > > Dear James, > > > > > > > (snipped) > > > > > > > Htoo: If you become clear it is OK. For quoting I am not > expert > > in > > > > quoting. > > > > > > > > > > Tep: Oh, brother! What an excuse!! > succeeded > > > in imitating James.> > > > > > > > LOL!! Don't be sorry, that's a pretty good imitation! :-) > > > > Metta, > > James > > And Htoo, Tep is right. You can't be expected to be believed unless > you can say where you get your information (either in a quote or > just citing the source). And saying you are not an expert in > quoting isn't an excuse. If you can read the book, you can quote it > or at least give the title of it. > > Metta, > James 50720 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions htootintnaing Dear Tep, It is good to ask the answers first. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi KenH (Swee and Htoo) - > > It is getting more interesting. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > (snipped) > > > > Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, > > > > Your remarks bring the focus back to perhaps the most the central > > Dhamma-question of all; 'What is right concentration?' > > > > Is it concentration that arises; > > with ignorance and wrong view; > > with ignorance but without wrong; > > without ignorance but also without right view, or; > > only with right view? > > > > Is right concentration fleeting, or; > > does it persist for a measurable period of time? > > > > Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of > > control? > > > > Is the object of right concentration a concept or; > > a paramattha dhamma? > > > > Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; > > are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have > > progressed further along the path) ? > > > > Ken H > > You asked difficult questions. Can you give us your version of the > answers first (to make sure that they make sense to you)? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======== 50721 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are htootintnaing Dear Tep, Where did your intelligence go? You just leap out of the domain of discussion. I said those from abhidhammatthasangaha. Atthangiko maggo are perfected at magga kaala. You cannot say *ONLY Htoo understand his coded messages. Have you checked through all other members? With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi, Htoo (Swee and KenH) - > > Below is a coded message that only Htoo himself understands. > > > Htoo: > > > Dear Tep, > > > > Ha ha ha ha. Apology for my inappropriate behaviour but I could not > > help laughing. It was lobha that made me laugh. Ha ha ha ha. > Soaking > > because of backward movement. > > > > NEP is simultaneous. > > > > What here discussing is all non-NEP things. All are mundane paths. > > That is why understanding is the first. But in real NEP, all 8 > > factors arise simultaneously. [smile:-)) real NEP, you would argue > > whether there are unreal NEP, ha ha ha ha.] > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > Tep: Please tell me what you were talking about. Thanks. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ========= 50722 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:46am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are htootintnaing Dear Ken H, Thanks for your questions on 'right concentration'. If it is NEP's right concentration it is perfected right concentration with right view without any ignorance to anything. That is it has to be free from ignorance to suffering, the cause of suffering, cessation of suffering and the path leading to cessation of suffering. It is just fleeting. With Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > --- I > > > Dear Swee Boon, > > > > Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without > right > > concentration things will never be seen very clearly. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, > > Your remarks bring the focus back to perhaps the most the central > Dhamma-question of all; 'What is right concentration?' > > Is it concentration that arises; > with ignorance and wrong view; > with ignorance but without wrong; > without ignorance but also without right view, or; > only with right view? > > Is right concentration fleeting, or; > does it persist for a measurable period of time? > > Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of > control? > > Is the object of right concentration a concept or; > a paramattha dhamma? > > Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; > are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have > progressed further along the path) ? > > Ken H 50723 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 195 and commentary. htootintnaing Dear Tep, It is simple to participate. I just invite any member here at DSG. How to participate is 1. sincerely answer the questions (with righteous speech) With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Htoo - > > Please clarify a few things for me. > > > > Htoo: > > We are dying soon. We are definitely dying soon. We are inevitably > > dying very very soon. What is the point of grasping unprofitable > > things and unprofitable view when we all are dying. > > > > Whoever attain 4th ruupa jhaana here? > > Tep: Are you suggesting that we grasp "profitable things" rather than > unprofitable things, or not not grasping anything at all? But why > suddenly mentioned the jhana ? > > > Htoo: > > If you are sincere enough to admit so, are you sure that you attain > > stated jhaana? If so sure, do you really know all those states when > > you have this or that jhaana? > > > > Tep: Why asked all that? > > >Htoo: > > >PS: This post has two pieces. One is reply to Nina that ruupa are > > just going to vanish soon as soon as they arise. But later part is to > >ALL DSG members whoever they are lurking or participating. > > Tep: I am not sure how to participate! Maybe I should learn to do the > lurking instead. {:>)) {:--)) {:=)) > > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > =========== 50724 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: Rob M's problem AND reply to PHIL! gazita2002 dear James and Phil I haven't been following much on dsg in the last little while so I'm guessing that u 2 have been sabre rattling at ea other, no? anyway, I think this is the sweetest exchange bet u. whatever has happened, I personally would be very sad if either of u left dsg on a permanent basis. Phil, as I've stated before I learn much from your dialogues with others. James, even tho I don't always see things your way, I feel maybe this is a good thing and that to be faced with a different viewpoint to mine then perhaps I may question my own understanding more thoroughly. I actually don't read any group other than dsg, so can't compare but the disagreements and the sorting out have been wonderful unfolding epics, in my eyes. One of my friends commented about a certain behaviour of mine "now that's not very buddhist" to which I snapped " I'm only buddhist when the conditions suit" . It caused much laughter. My point being that we are full of kilesa and the kusala moments are few and far between - in my case anyway. Its impossible to be kind and gracious all the time. May we all have patience, courage and good cheer, azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > wrote: > > James, I always think of you as a friend - just not a Dhamma > > friend. I'm going to keep in touch with you off-list about non > > Dhamma stuff because I really do find you interesting and I know > > you're a very loving person. My upcoming absence from DSG is not > > because of you, as you know, it's because of me. > > James: Thanks. I think of you as a friend also. Please do keep in > touch, on of off-list, and good luck with the writing, your dhamma > study, and your daily life. > > > I still do wonder > > why, if you consistently find A. Sujin to teach "the dregs" of > > Dhamma or however it was you put it, you keep exposing yourself > (so > > to speak!) to her and her "followers", but that's your business. > > James: First, I don't believe I said that she teaches the "dregs of > dhamma", and if I did I apologize. I didn't mean that. But, to > answer your question, I hang out in this group because I believe the > highest dhamma can be found here. My problem with K. Sujin and her > followers is really very minor in the grand scope of things: I > believe that they have unjustly cut out the eight factor of the > Noble Eightfold Path: Right Concentration. However, their following > and support of the other seven factors is very strong- especially > Right View and Right Mindfulness. So, it's not perfect here, and I > get frustrated arguing what to me seems so obvious, but it's much > better than other groups. Imagine weaknesses with all eight factors > and unfamiliarity with the texts and you have a good picture of what > most of the other groups are like! So, I want to be where the > dhamma is highest- do you blame me? (Don't answer that- take a rest). > > Metta, > James 50725 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 562 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among the four different stocks of dhamma the first three have been discussed to some detail. There left the fourth stock. It is general stock of dhamma. Sabba sangaha or general stock of dhamma 1. khandha or aggregates 2. upadaana-kkhandha or clinging aggregates 3. aayatana or sense-bases 4. dhaatu or elements 5. saccaa or Noble Truths There are 12 aayatana dhamma or 12 sense-bases or 12 sense-spheres. Again they can also be dhaatu dhamma. But as there are 6 inner and 6 outter sense-sphere or sense-base there are 6 more dhaatu or elements. There are altogether 18 dhaatus or 18elements. Dhaatu are dhamma that bear their own characteristics. Atthano sabhaava.m dhareti'ti dhaatu. Atthano means 'essence' or 'meaning' or 'characters' and sabhaava means 'existence'. Dhareti means 'bear' bring' 'carry'. So there are dhamma that are existences and they bear their own characterstics. These dhammas are called dhaatu or elements. As there are 12 aayatanas or 12 sense-bases or 12 sense-spheres there are also 12 dhaatus correspond to those 12 aayatanas. But there are 6 extra elements or dhaatus as compared to aayatana. Dhammaayatana may be said as dhamma-dhaatu. But manaayatana goes into 2 elements or 2 dhaatus. They are mano-dhaatu or mind-element and mano-vinnaana-dhaatu or mind-consciousness-elements. 18 dhaatus or 18 elements are a) ruupa-dhaatu b) sadda-dhaatu c) gandha-dhaatu d) rasa-dhaatu e) photthabbaa-dhaatu f) dhamma-dhaatu a) cakkhu-dhaatu b) sota-dhaatu c) ghaana-dhaatu d) jivhaa-dhaatu e) kaaya-dhaatu f) mano-dhaatu a) cakkhu-vinnaana-dhaatu b) sota-vinnaana-dhaatu c) ghaana-vinnaana-dhaatu d) jivhaa-vinnaana-dhaatu e) kaaya-vinnaana-dhaatu f) mano-vinnaana-dhaatu With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50726 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:30am Subject: Re: Nyanaponika and creativity (Was: Re: [dsg] A Short Post: Conditions, N sarahprocter... Hi Joop, You asked for my comments on a passage of Nyanaponika's: --- Joop wrote: > Dear Sarah, Howard and all > > Sarah, I think you are not positive enough about the necessary and > possible evolution of Theravada. > > In the preface to his Abhidhamma Studies, Nyanaponika states: > "There is no reason why the Abhidhamma philosophy of the Southern or > Theravada tradition should stagnate today or why its further > development should not be resumed. In fact, through many centuries > there has been a living growth of Abhidhamma thought ... > There are are a vast number of subjects in the canonical and > commentarial Abhidhamma literature that deserve and require closer > investigation and new presentation in the language of our time. There > are many lines of thought, only briefly sketched in Abhidhamma > tradition, that merit detailed treatment in connection with parallel > tendencies in modern thought. … .... S: It starts OK, but I don't agree with the last sentence (if I understand it). As for the rest of the extract, I'm pretty so-so about it, e.g >....It would mean that the Abhidhamma philosophy must remain > within the limits of whatever has been preserved of the traditional > exegetical literature and hence will cease to be a living and growing > organism … ... S: I see the danger more in the imaginative renderings which may seem like living and growing organisms but which are actually an abuse of the 'traditional exegetical literature':). In any case, it's not the renderings or the textbook terms that are the issue, rather the understanding of the dhammas taught by the Buddha. These dhammas are the Abhidhamma and they're not in any literature. As for your comment about how I'm "not positive enough about the necessary and possible evolution of Theravada", this may be so. On the other hand, aren't we only having these discussions and our present access to the Buddha's teachings because of the insistence of the Sangha in not allowing any evolution of Theravada? Of course while we can and do use our own words to speak, consider and reflect, isn't it helpful to also be able to read and hear the Theravada texts themselves from time to time? You asked whether Sujin agrees with it. I can't say about this extract but Nina mentioned that a very long time ago, K.Sujin had highly recommended 'Abhidhamma Studies' to her. When I mentioned this to Sujin, with a touch of surprise, she said that at the time, there was so little written in English on the Abhidhamma and that it was better than other books. For myself, I I've always found some parts very useful and some parts less so, especially some of the parts that appeal to you which are couched in western philosophical terminology. Isn't it usually the way? By the way, I remember at least one visit with K.Sujin, Nina and others to visit Ven Nyanaponika and pay our respects. He was a very exemplary bhikkhu and was very kind to us all. Jon also remembers him as very gentlemanly, hard-working, well-spoken and always interested to share and discuss Dhamma. I have a nice pic of him which maybe I'll load for you to see sometime. What is your Abhidhamma group in Amsterdam studying now? I'll be glad to hear news. Metta, Sarah ------ 50727 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: Rob M’s Problem Reply Part I kenhowardau Hi RobM ------------------------------- <. . .> R: > My point is that when I hear or read an idea, I tend to place it according to how close it is to the core. I am sure that this post is going to generate a lot of feedback. I am bracing myself :-) ---------------------------------- I would hate to take advantage of your troubled state of mind. :-) Would this be a good time to ask about textual references to formal vipassana meditation? I am referring to any instructions you might know of that tell us to sit on a cushion, stop the monkey mind from flitting from thought to thought, and concentrate on physical and mental sensations. Where do those instructions appear and how close to the core should we place them? Ken H PS: Sorry for any apparent insincerity. :-) 50728 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:30am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhatrue Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear James and Tep, > > All I have be writting are almost all that comes from my mind, which > is linked with my memory when I read, heard, learned things in my > past. I do not have any immediate access to any reference with > the exception of abhidhammatthasangaha. > > Even that book has not been touched for a long time. I only consult > it when there arise problems that have been raised by some people. > Otherwise all my words are almost from my memory with only a few > exception. That's very interesting. Okay, do me a favor: go back in your memory, as far as you can, and remember where it was written or who said that the 1st immaterial jhana is dependent on the fourth rupa jhana. That is all I want: A source for that information. (It is amazing that you can remember such a wealth of information. I'm impressed. But I still don't automatically believe you because you aren't a published and well-recognized Dhamma scholar. Guess I'm picky about that kind of thing.) Metta, James 50729 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 563 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 18 dhaatus or 18 elements. Dhaatus or elements are dhamma that bear their own character. Actually all aayatanas or all sense- spheres or all sense-bases are also dhaatus. There are outter sense-sphere and inner sense-sphere. They always pair and work together. They are ruupa (form) & cakkhu (eye), sadda (sound) & sota (ear), gandha (smell) & ghaana (nose), rasa (taste) & jivhaa (tongue), photthabbaa (touches) & kaaya (body), and dhamma (dhamma that are not self but just dhamma) & mana (mind). When each sphere is examined they are also behaving as dhaatu dhamma or elements. The difference is that there is a third group in dhaatus as compared to aayatanas, which just have two groups of outter and inner. The first 5 pairs are all ruupa-dhamma. These 5 pairs are also dhaatu dhamma. The 6th pair of aayatana moves into 3 dhaatus or 3 element. That is dhammaayatana becomes dhamma-dhaatu. But manaayatana becomes two dhaatus. One is mano-dhaatu or mind-element and another is mano- vinnaana dhaatu or mind-consciousness-element. The third group for the first 5 pairs of aayatana as dhaatu are all called vinnaana-dhaatu or consciousness-element. They are cakkhu0vinnaana-dhaatu or eye-consciousness-element, sota-vinnaana- dhaatu or ear-consciousness-element, ghaana-vinnaana-dhaatu or nose- consciousness-element, jivhaa-vinnaana-dhaatu or tongue-consciousness- element, and kaaya-vinnaana-dhaatu or body-consciousness-element. 18 dhaatus or 18 elements are A) Striker or hitter or impinger elements a) ruupa-dhaatu b) sadda-dhaatu c) gandha-dhaatu d) rasa-dhaatu e) photthabbaa-dhaatu f) dhamma-dhaatu These 6 dhaatus or elements are called impinger or striker or hitter element. Because they hit or strike or impinge on their respective sense organ like eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and the mind. B) Receiver or receptor or acceptor elements a) cakkhu-dhaatu b) sota-dhaatu c) ghaana-dhaatu d) jivhaa-dhaatu e) kaaya-dhaatu f) mano-dhaatu These 6 elements accept or receive the external sense information that come in the forms of striker or hitter or impinger elements. These two lists work together. When a surface of iron is hit by iron rod or when a match-stick is hit on the match-box there arises spark. Like this when the striker elements strike the receiver elements there arise spark-elements called vinnaana-dhaatu or consciousness- element. C) Spark elements a) cakkhu-vinnaana-dhaatu b) sota-vinnaana-dhaatu c) ghaana-vinnaana-dhaatu d) jivhaa-vinnaana-dhaatu e) kaaya-vinnaana-dhaatu f) mano-vinnaana-dhaatu Mano-dhaatu or mind-element is vinnaana or consciousness and it is also citta. Mano-vinnaana-dhaatu or mind-consciousness-element are also vinnaanas or consciousness and they are also cittas. However, mano-dhaatus are not like mano-vinnaana dhaatu. Because they do not know their object very well as in cases of mano-vinnaana- dhaatu. Mano-dhaatu are just receiver element. When dhamma-dhaatu or dhamma-element or mind-object-element strike mano-dhaatu there arise the sparks mano-vinnaana dhaatu. But this simile is hard to understand for naama as they are not ruupa and ruupa-similes cannot fully serve for naama dhamma. But as soon as dhamma-dhaatu arise there also arise mano-dhaatu. Mano- dhaatu are panca-dvaara-avajjana-citta or 5-door-adverting- consciousness, sampa.ticchana citta or receiving consciousness. And they spark off mind-consciousness-element or mano-vinnaana-dhaatu. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50730 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:06am Subject: Nibbana and studying htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 18 elements. Altogether they are naama and ruupa. There are 10 elements that are ruupa. There are 8 elements that are naama. Nibbana as an object of mind can be dhammaayatana and it can be dhamma-dhaatu. But it is not sankhata dhaatu or conditioned elements or conditioned dhamma. Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu. Nibbana is what Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama searched for. Nibbana is amata. Nibbana is immortal. Nibbana does not give rise to birth. Nibbana does not go ageing. Nibbana does not go wrong, disturbed, unsettled, disastered, diseased. There is a link where these 18 dhaatus and nibbana-dhaatu or amata- dhaatu or asankhata-dhaatu. That link is arahatta magga naana. Again this naana has to arise based on lower path-knowledge. Path-knowledge is based on the Path. The Path has approaching way. The approaching way has a link with path-destinated road. Path destinated road requires a lot of extensive learning. Learing is not directly equated with studying but studying support learning. So studying is important when nibbana has to be approached. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50731 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Hi Htoo, That's very interesting. Okay, do me a favor: go back in your memory, as far as you can, and remember where it was written or who said that the 1st immaterial jhana is dependent on the fourth rupa jhana. That is all I want: A source for that information. (It is amazing that you can remember such a wealth of information. I'm impressed. But I still don't automatically believe you because you aren't a published and well-recognized Dhamma scholar. Guess I'm picky about that kind of thing.) Metta, James -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear James, :D, Ha ha ha. You are not picky. Sarah knows how I write regarding references. Christine knows how I write. The direct source is now far away. It is in a book written by a Myanmar lay people, who disrobed, I think. He wrote with references. And I also read that aruupa-jhaana have to base on 4th ruupa-jhaana in other books. Visuddhimagga translated by Venerable Mahaasii Sayadaw also says this, if I am not wrong. But I am afraid that I cannot the exact reference. I hold the principle. The 1st aruupa jhaana has an object called 'aakaasa-ananta' or 'boundless-space'. This space is not the space outside of this earth but just as a sign. This sign arises from the sign of 4th ruupa jhaana in kasina except aakaasa-kasina, which is already aakaasa or space. This is clearly written in abhidhammatthasangaha. There are 10 objects for 10 separate asubha-kammatthaana or foul- meditation. They all can give rise to 1st ruupa jhaana. But they cannot ascend even up to 2nd jhaana. Because asubha sign cannot arise without the help of vitakka or initial application. There are 10 anussati-kammatthaana or 10 recollection-meditation. The first 8 meditations can never never never give rise to 1st ruupa jhaana. Because the objects in these 8 meditations are not the kind of object that can be absorbed. 9th recollection-meditation that is kaayagataasati can give rise to 1st ruupa jhaana. But it cannot ascend up 2nd ruupa jhaana because it does need vitakka, which do not exist in 2nd and above ruupa jhaana and all aruupa jhaana. The only anussati kammatthaana or recollection-meditation that can give rise to full ruupa jhaanas that is all 4 ruupa jhaana is anapanassati kammatthaana or breathing meditation. There are 4 brahmavihaara or 4 pure-living meditation. The first 3 can give rise to 3rd ruupa jhaana. They cannot ascend up to 4th ruupa jhaana. Aruupa jhaana can never be attain without ruupa jhaana. As there is no object for non-jhaanalaabhii to develop aruupa-jhaana. Non- jhaanalaabhii all have just kaama senses or sensuous objects only because they do not have any jhaana. There are 2 kammatthaana called aharepa.tikuula-sannaa and catu- dhaatuvavatthaana. Both cannot give rise to any ruupa jhaana because they are complex and they are not the kind of object to be absorbed. So aruupa jhaana has to be based on 9 kasina-4th ruupa jhaana. With the power of 4th ruupa jhaana the object is expanded to cover the whole universe. That is to be endless or to be boundless. Because of dispassion on ruupa and ruupa-sign this boundless object is deleted and there just left nothing, which is pannatti-space or another sign that arises from 4th ruupa jhaana object of kasina. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Abhidhammatthasangaha say that akaasaanancayatana aruupa jhaana has to base on 9 kasina 4th ruupa jhaana. Again, this comes from my memory, and I did not consult the text. But if you want I may look for that book where I might find it again and look it up for you. I will post in Paali as it writes. Is this OK for you? 50732 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:33am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear James, :D, Ha ha ha. You are not picky. Sarah knows how I write regarding But I am afraid that I cannot the exact reference. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Correction-: But I am afraid that I cannot provide the exact reference. Thanks, Htoo Naing 50733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lurker friend of Rob M . . . nilovg Hi Rob and Lurker friend KH Cheah, wonderful. Nina. op 27-09-2005 03:39 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > I am sure that I speak for the entire DSG community when I encourage > you to share the questions raised by your Abhidhamma Study Group here > on DSG. I guarantee you that you will get multiple answers! 50734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob M’s Problem Reply Part II nilovg Hi Rob M, we formerly had a conversation on this subject and I referred to texts in the Book of Analysis, The Path of Discrimination, the Patthana, under anantara paccaya. I mentioned that we have to pay attention to the meanings of mano-viññaana dhaatu and manu-dhaatu, and remember what types of cittas are included. I just see it on P..115, 116. of the Book of Analysis, under Analysis of Elements, Ch 3, even bhavangacitta is implied. the first advertance in a process is mentioned. Thus, the cittas arising in processes are implied, but they are worked out with more detail in the commentaries. Maybe you can retrieve these posts under: process cittas? I do not have time now, since I am leaving for India next week. Nina. op 27-09-2005 03:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > The seventeen thought moments as laid out in the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha does not conflict with the Suttas. Nevertheless, attributing > the idea of the precise ordered sequence of seventeen thought moments > to the Buddha is not correct. At least in my opinion. I would welcome > it if somebody could point me to a Sutta reference (or an Abhidhamma > reference) which describes this precise ordered sequence of seventeen > thought moments. 50735 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 564 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In general stock of dhamma, there are 5 stocks. They are panca- kkhandhaa or 5 aggregates, pancupadaana-kkhandhaa or 5 clinging aggregates, aayatana or sense-base or sense-sphere, dhaatu or elements and saccaa or Noble Truths. There are dhammas and they are in one of four truths or four saccaa. These four truths or four saccaa are 1. the truth of suffering of dukkha-saccaa 2. the truth of cause of suffering or samudaya-saccaa 3. the truth of cessation of suffering of nirodha-saccaa 4. the truth of path leading to cessation of suffering or magga-sacca Magga-sacca is also known as 'dukkha-nirodha-gaaminii-pa.tipadaa sacca'. Almost any dhamma is in one of these 4 saccaa or 4 Noble Truths with a few exceptions. There are three rounds or three va.t.ta namely kilesa va.t.ta, kamma va.t.ta, and vipaaka va.t.ta. They are suffering or they are dukkha- saccaa. In summary all 5 pancupadaana-kkhandhaa or 5 clinging aggregates are all dukkha-saccaa or the truth of suffering. Tanha is the cause of suffering and it is samudaya-saccaa. All sufferings derive from the actions that are pushed by tanhaa or craving. So this tanhaa or craving is samudaya saccaa or the truth of cause of suffering. There are 3 tanhaas. They are kaama-tanhaa, bhava-tanhaa, and vibhava-tanhaa. Nibbana is cessation of suffering and nibbana is nirodha sacca or the truth of cessation of suffering. Noble Eightfold Path or NEP is the truth of path leading to cessation of suffering or it is magga saccaa. As all four Noble Truths are the truths that are seen by ariyaa they are never mundane and they all are supramundane or lokuttara dhamma. Only *lokuttara cittas* or supramundane consciousness will have this true path of NEP because NEP is the property of ariyaa and never of non- ariyaa (puthujana). Still there are dhamma that are not in all of these 4 saccaa or 4 Noble Truths. They are called saccaa-vimutti dhamma or dhamma not inclisive in 4 Noble Truth. And *NOT ALL TANHAA* are samudaya saccaa. There is an exception. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 50736 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:38am Subject: Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and Ken H - Thank you for the nice research you have done on 'parinna', Sarah. Bhikkhu Nanamoli's translation of parinna is "full understanding" and Thanissaro Bhikkhu's choice is "comprehension" (simply because he wanted it to be different?). >Sarah: > "Here[S: in the context of the sutta] it should be understood in terms of > the earth element. The `full understanding of scrutinization' understands the five clinging aggregates in their true nature as impermanent, (suffering and non-self), by delimiting them through insight-comprehension and scrutinizing their modes of impermanence, etc, together with their accompaniments. > > "The `supreme path' is the path of arahatship, for this abandons desire and lust without remainder; or it is the supramundane path (in general). > Either is the full understanding of abandoning, which in the abstract > sense is the wisdom which abandons (defilements) by eradicating them (samucchedapahaanakaarii pa~n~naa)." > Tep: I want to remark that the Buddha's definition for parinna is the greatest : "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. [1] This is called comprehension." [SN XXII.23 Parinna, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] [Footnote by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] [1] Comprehension here means the arahant's full-knowing (see MN 117). As SN LVI.11 shows, the first noble truth of suffering and stress is to be comprehended. As SN LVI.20 further implies, when the first noble truth has been comprehended, the tasks with regard to all the other noble truths have been completed as well. Tep: So it is clear that full understanding (parinna) is not for those non- Arahants among us to claim to possess. :-) Regards, Tep ======== 50737 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:46am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhatrue Hi Htoo (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > The 1st aruupa jhaana has an object called 'aakaasa-ananta' > or 'boundless-space'. This space is not the space outside of this > earth > but just as a sign. This sign arises from the sign of 4th ruupa > jhaana > in kasina except aakaasa-kasina, which is already aakaasa or space. > This is clearly written in abhidhammatthasangaha. Thank you so much for the reference! (Now, was that so hard? ;-)) Okay, I did a bit of research on the abhidhammatthasangaha and I found some relevant information. Venerable Sayadaw Ashin U Thittila in writing about the information found in the abhidhammatthasangaha wrote: "Here again some explanation is needed. In the Sphere of Form there are three first jhanas - one kusala, one resultant and one inoperative. In Lokuttara there are eight first jhanas - one each in the four Paths and one each in the four Fruits. Thus there are in total eleven first jhanas. Similarly there are eleven second jhanas, third jhanas and fourth jhanas. When, however, it comes to the fifth jhana, not only are there eleven in the way just described, but because all the twelve types of consciousness in the Formless Sphere are of the category of fifth jhana this brings the total of fifth jhana states to twenty-three. Fifth jhana has only two dominant factors, equanimity and one-pointedness of mind. Because all the twelve arupa types of consciousness have only those two dominant factors, they are included in that category." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/estm/estm04.htm James: Htoo, you have been stating many times that there is only one type of rupa jhana, however this information states that there are in fact three basic rupa jhanas: one kusala, one resultant, and one inoperative. Now, I don't know the differences between these three but it throws a whole new light on the discussion. Tep and I have been arguing that there must be more than one type of rupa jhana and here is some evidence to that effect. Any comments? Metta, James 50738 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:40am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are nidive Hi Ken H, > Is it concentration that arises; > with ignorance and wrong view; > with ignorance but without wrong; > without ignorance but also without right view, or; > only with right view? http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > Is right concentration fleeting, or; > does it persist for a measurable period of time? The more you practice, the better it gets! > Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of > control? Certainly! > Is the object of right concentration a concept or; > a paramattha dhamma? No such distinction is made by the Buddha in the suttas, in my opinion. > Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; > are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have > progressed further along the path) ? Relevant here and now! Regards, Swee Boon 50739 From: nina Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:44am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:53pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Please be reminded that any conversation is a two-way communication. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Where did your intelligence go? You just leap out of the domain of > discussion. I said those from abhidhammatthasangaha. Atthangiko maggo are perfected at magga kaala. You cannot say *ONLY Htoo understand his coded messages. Have you checked through all other members? > I am sorry to have made you angry again, Htoo. The label "coded message" is a polite way to tell you that we are not communicating well enough. Unfortunately, you always think of such a problem as not yours -- so there has been no improvement. Well, at this point I can only say, "whatever!" [ As Swee always does whenever he has no hope in continuing a discussion with someone.] Peace, Tep ======== 50741 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Vism.XIV,196 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 196. By this, too, it is shown that the materiality aggregate is all materiality, which all comes into the collection with the characteristic of being molested; for there is no materiality aggregate apart from materiality. And just as in the case of materiality, so also feeling, etc., [are respectively shown as the feeling aggregate, etc.,] since they come under the collections with the [respective] characteristics of being felt, etc.; for there is no feeling aggregate apart from feeling and so on. 50742 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:21pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Dan D. (Attn. Ken H., James, Htoo, Swee, Sarah, Nina) - Thorough familiarity with the key suttas on right view and the Four Noble Truths is necessary for a productive discussion with others; these key suttas are, for instance: MN 117, SN XLV.8, MN 9, SN XII.15, AN V.25, MN 28, DN 22, and MN 2. If you have additional suttas to contribute to my list, it will be gladly accepted. Dan D. : What I see in the suttas, then, is that (mundane) right view is seeing things as they are, rather than having correct opinions or good conceptual, intellectual understanding of the doctrine. Tep: My understanding, based on the suttas, is different. Right view (samma ditthi) in the nutshell is simply the knowledge (nana) of the Four Noble Truths, according to SN XLV.8 and DN 22. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress(dukkha), knowledge with regard to the origination of stress(dukka samudaya) , knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress(dukkha nirodha), knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress (atthangika-magga) : This, monks, is called right view". ------------------------------------------- Dan D. : The commentary elaborates on the meaning: "two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates the formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of the defilements." (MA, BB trans., note 1100 in MLDB). Tep: Contemplation(dhammanupassana) of right view is extremely beneficial for Stream-entry, because the first three fetters can be eliminated by the 'yoniso-manasikara' of the Four Noble Truths. According to MN 2 : "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing". I have often found that commentaries of the ancients, as well as those of lay persons and monks who are contemporary with us, are far less helpful than these two great suttas SN XLV.8 and Mn 2. Please seriously study them, several times, over and over. I believe you don't need any guidance from anybody else. ------------------------------- Dan D. : Two other questions to consider... 1. Do you think of sammaditthi more along the lines of a cetasika (i.e., a paramattha dhamma that arises and passes away in a flash), or something softer like a generalized right thinking about things? 2. What do you see as the distinction between sammaditthi and yathabhutan pajanati? Tep: 1. I am sorry, I have no inclination along that line of thinking. 2. Yathbhutayana pajanati comes after samma-samadhi is established. Samma-ditthi and the other six path factors support samma-samadhi. Samasamadhi then supports samma-nana, according to MN 117. Samma-nana subsumes yathabhutan pajanati. That is my understanding of the difference between sammaditthi and yathabhutan pajanati. Although I have sought an adequate support of the suttas (the Budhha's words), yet my deduction could be inaccurate and I'd be glad to be corrected. It was nice talking with you, Dan. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > I like your selection of suttas and other literature, Tep. > Mahacattarisaka sutta in particular is one of my favorites (in the > top 25 for sure). The section you quoted discusses the distinction > between the two kinds of Right View, mundane and supramundane. > > The commentary elaborates on the meaning: "two kinds of right view > are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates the > formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right > view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and > effects the radical destruction of the defilements." (MA, BB trans., > note 1100 in MLDB). > > I like that -- "Right view...investigates." It makes it sound like > right view is an impersonal activity or process, not at all > like "Right view is the spiritually correct opinion that a person > holds." Indeed, the Pali for "right view of insight" is > vipassanaasammaaditthii, which is a clear viewing of the tilakkhana. > The word BB translates as "investigate" is pariviima.msati, which may also be glossed as "examine". > > What I see in the suttas, then, is that (mundane) right view is > seeing things as they are, rather than having correct opinions or > good conceptual, intellectual understanding of the doctrine. > 50743 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Fleetingness & Dhamma similes corvus121 Hello everyone Looks like I've tuned in just in time to wish all the Indian trippers a Bon voyage! May you all have a safe and fruitful journey. I am interested in Ken H's questions on Right Concentration. In particular, the question "Is Right Concentration fleeting or does it persist for a measurable period of time?" In post #50,738, Swee Boon responded with "The more you practice, the better it gets!" Swee Boon, would you mind giving a direct answer to Ken H's question so that I don't confuse your position? TIA. Dan D posed the following question: "1. Do you think of sammaditthi more along the lines of a cetasika (i.e., a paramattha dhamma that arises and passes away in a flash), or something softer like a generalized right thinking about things?" In post #50,742, Tep replied "1. I am sorry, I have no inclination along that line of thinking." Tep went on to reiterate his view that the suttas are the Buddha's words, implying that other parts of the Tipitika aren't. Am I right, Tep? In AN I, v, 8, the Buddha said "No other thing do I know, O monks, that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile for how quickly the mind changes." This struck me as being quite remarkable, given the Buddha's wonderful way with similes and metaphors. Here are some of my favourites: Balapandita Sutta: comparing a small stone with Himalaya; the pain of being struck with 300 spears is not even a fraction of the suffering in hell; the fool's regaining human rebirth is akin to a blind sea- turtle that comes to the surface every 100 years happening to surface in the hole of a yoke drifting about. SN Saccasamyutta 45(5) The Hair: the Four Noble Truths are more difficult to pierce than shooting an arrow to pierce a hair split into seven strands. There are so many more, of course. My point is this, if the Buddha struggled to find a simile for how quickly the mind changes, we can be sure that the mind changes VERY quickly. I am happy to describe the mind or consciousness as "fleeting". Before I get side-tracked, can I ask both Tep and Swee Boon to comment on AN I, v, 8. What do you think it means? How does that meaning sit with your understanding of Right Concentration? Isn't AN I, v, 8 consistent with the Abhidhammic version of how the mind works? If not, why? DSG seems to be very good at multiplying questions – sorry about that! But I think that spelling out your perspective a little more might be useful for me and hopefully others too. Best wishes Andrew T 50744 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 284 Conceit -maana (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] There are many forms of conceit. Conceit has been accumulated for so long and it is bound to arise time and again. When we are dissatisfied with the way other people treat us there are bound to be moments of aversion, but there may also be moments of conceit. We find ourselves important and then we suffer again from desire for self-advertisement; we want to be esteemed. We may be conceited about erudition, about “being a knowledgeable authority”, as the “Book of Analysis” expressed it so accurately. We may want to prove our value to others in the field of knowledge about Dhamma. Then we let the banner fly again. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50745 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:53pm Subject: The Three Doors... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Purity comes by Guarding the Three Doors of Action (Kamma): Friends, there are these three purities: Purity of Mental Action ! Purity of Verbal Action ! Purity of Bodily Action ! Herein, what is purity of bodily action ? It is the complete abstention from killing any breathing beings, avoidance of taking whatever is not freely given, & refraining from any misbehaviour in sensual desires... Herein, what is purity of verbal action ? It is abstention from any false lies, avoidance of all aggressive speech, abstention from divisive slandering speech, & refraining from all idle & empty hear-say gossip... Herein, what is purity of mental action ? It is non-envious non-greediness, kind & gentle non-ill-will, and noble right view... Like the earth are they in properties, a firm footing to those who desire Freedom.. Like water are they, for they wash away all the spots of the mental defilement.. Like fire are they, for they burn the whole forest of the mental obstructions.. Like wind are they, for they blow away all the dust of mental obscuration.. Like a ship are they, for they ferry those who desire Peace across this Samsara.. Like a shelter, for they restore faith in those who are frightened by Ageing & Death.. Like a guide are they, leading any who wish Ease out of the jungle of wrong views.. Like a mirror are they, making any who want Bliss to see the Clusters of Clinging.. Like an umbrella, warding off both rain & scorching of Greed, Hate & Ignorance.. Like the sun are they, for they dispel the darkness & gloom of Deluded Confusion.. Who fully guards his speech, is well controlled in mind, Who does no disadvantageous through the body's door, Who purifies this simple triple course of any action, Will win both the path & fruit, all the Seers have enjoyed! Dhammapada 281 http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50746 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fleetingness & Dhamma similes nilovg Hi Andrew, Thank you for your post with reminder. I like the way you explain that " It is not easy to give a simile for how quickly the mind changes." We could overlook this part of the text. It gives an idea that the rapidity of the arising and falling away of naama cannot even be expressed in words. Just now I am studying a Tiika text that states: naamadhammas are quick to change (under feeling khandha, Vis. 197): lahuparivattino aruupadhammaa. op 28-09-2005 05:57 schreef Andrew op athel60@...: > In AN I, v, 8, the Buddha said "No other thing do I know, O monks, > that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile > for how quickly the mind changes." 50747 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& KenH), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Tep: I want to remark that the Buddha's definition for parinna is the > greatest : > > "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of > aversion, ending of delusion. [1] This is called comprehension." [SN > XXII.23 Parinna, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] > > [Footnote by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] > [1] Comprehension here means the arahant's full-knowing (see MN > 117). .. ... S: This is referring to the third parinna, pahana parinna (full understanding as abandoning). BB gives this note to his translation: "The explanation of pari~n~na, full understanding, in terms of the destruction of lust (raagakkhaya) etc, initially seems puzzling, but see MN1 66-67, where pari~n~na is used as a virtual synonym for pahaana. Spk specifies pari~n~na here as accantapari~n~na, ultimate abaondonment, which it glosses as samatikkama, transcendence, and identifies with Nibbaana. Apparently accantapari~n~na is distinct from the usual three kinds of pari~n~na, on which see the following note. S:The following note he gives refers to the following sutta, SN24:3 'Directly Knowing' which refers to 'directly knowing and fully understanding form' etc. Note: "Anabhijaan.m, etc, are present participles, glosses anabhijaananto, etc. Spk: By 'directly knowing' (abhijaana.m), the full understanding of the known (~naatapari~n~na) is indicated; by 'full understanding' (parijaana.m), full understanding by scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa); by 'beoming dispassionate' and 'abandoning', the full understanding as abandonment (pahaanapari~n~naa)." ***** > Tep: So it is clear that full understanding (parinna) is not for those > non- > Arahants among us to claim to possess. :-) ... S: So it is clear we need to read the suttas carefully, to appreciate that understanding has to develop and there can never be full understanding by abandoning (pahana parinna) if the earlier stages of insight, beginning with the insight into namas and rupas directly (~naatapari~n~naa) hasn't been realised first. As the note I gave yestereday made clear, pahana parinna can eithe refer to ariyan wisdom or to the full abandoning at the stage or arahantship only as in the sutta you quoted. Thanks for the reference. Metta, Sarah p.s I intend to get back on our other threads when I have time, now or after the trip. =============== 50748 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - Please be reminded that any conversation is a two-way communication. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > Where did your intelligence go? You just leap out of the domain of > discussion. I said those from abhidhammatthasangaha. Atthangiko > maggo are perfected at magga kaala. You cannot say *ONLY Htoo > understand his coded messages. Have you checked through all other > members? > Tep: I am sorry to have made you angry again, Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep. I have been looking for 'angry Htoo'. Ha ha ha ha. I was not angry at anything recently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: The label "coded message" is a polite way to tell you that we are not communicating well enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are many points that communication break might occur in any situation. Polite way? Politeness is 'consideration on others' feeling'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Unfortunately, you always think of such a problem as not yours -- so there has been no improvement. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have been looking for 'ego'. You said 'so there has been no improvement'. Can you sense any 'ego' there? Ha ha ha ha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Well, at this point I can only say, "whatever!" [ As Swee always does whenever he has no hope in continuing a discussion with someone.] Peace, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Let it be. May you be well. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50749 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: Fleetingness & Dhamma similes kenhowardau Hi Andrew, Thanks for this post; it consolidates the discussion very nicely. I particularly liked the following: --------------------- A: > In AN I, v, 8, the Buddha said, "No other thing do I know, O monks, that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile for how quickly the mind changes." This struck me as being quite remarkable, given the Buddha's wonderful way with similes and metaphors. -------------------------------------- A year or so ago, a DSG member made the point that speed was relative. He said dhammas might be fast, but only because we compare them with things that are slow. He said if we didn't make such comparisons it would be equally correct to say 'dhammas are slow' as 'dhammas are fast'.' I had to agree it was a pretty good argument until, some time later, I heard a comment by K Sujin (on one of the Sri Lanka tapes), which, to borrow your words, struck me as being quite remarkable. Someone had said, ""When there is no right understanding, dhammas are very, very fast," (meaning, of course, that it is hard for us worldlings to directly know paramattha dhammas). K Sujin immediately replied, "When there *is* right understanding they are faster." K Sujin doesn't make competitive, smart aleck remarks: her reply was entirely appropriate. Anicca is absolute, not relative. The more clearly a dhamma is seen, the more fleeting it is known to be. There is nothing like that kind of speed in conventional reality - no wonder the Buddha found it hard to give a simile. Ken H 50750 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo (and Tep), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > The 1st aruupa jhaana has an object called 'aakaasa-ananta' > > or 'boundless-space'. This space is not the space outside of this > > earth > > but just as a sign. This sign arises from the sign of 4th ruupa > > jhaana > > in kasina except aakaasa-kasina, which is already aakaasa or > space. > > This is clearly written in abhidhammatthasangaha. > > Thank you so much for the reference! (Now, was that so hard? ;-)) > Okay, I did a bit of research on the abhidhammatthasangaha and I > found some relevant information. Venerable Sayadaw Ashin U Thittila > in writing about the information found in the abhidhammatthasangaha > wrote: > > "Here again some explanation is needed. In the Sphere of Form there > are three first jhanas - one kusala, one resultant and one > inoperative. In Lokuttara there are eight first jhanas - one each in > the four Paths and one each in the four Fruits. Thus there are in > total eleven first jhanas. Similarly there are eleven second jhanas, > third jhanas and fourth jhanas. When, however, it comes to the fifth > jhana, not only are there eleven in the way just described, but > because all the twelve types of consciousness in the Formless Sphere > are of the category of fifth jhana this brings the total of fifth > jhana states to twenty-three. Fifth jhana has only two dominant > factors, equanimity and one-pointedness of mind. Because all the > twelve arupa types of consciousness have only those two dominant > factors, they are included in that category." > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/estm/estm04.htm > > James: Htoo, you have been stating many times that there is only one > type of rupa jhana, however this information states that there are > in fact three basic rupa jhanas: one kusala, one resultant, and one > inoperative. Now, I don't know the differences between these three > but it throws a whole new light on the discussion. Tep and I have > been arguing that there must be more than one type of rupa jhana and > here is some evidence to that effect. Any comments? > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Tep and all, [Apology mods for not snipping because I think it is essential.] There is only one type of ruupa jhaana. What you referred to was just three lineages of that single ruupa jhaana. When ruupa jhaana is developed then it is called 'ruupa-kusala'. But when arahats develop ruupa jhaana it is no more kusala. It is called inoperative ruupa-jhaana or functional ruupa-jhaana. Because there is no avijjaanusaya in arahats. Vipaaka-ruupa-jhaana are just life-continuing consciousness of ruupa- brahmaa or fine-material-beings. So apart from this distinction ruupa-jhaana is the same. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: a) lokuttara kusala citta = magga citta (4) b) lokuttara vipaaka citta= phala citta (4) c) lokuttara kiriya citta NEVER exist because magga cittas arise once. a) aruupa jhaana when in javana (in non-arahats)= aruupa kusala(4) b) aruupa jhaana in brahma when not in javana = aruupa vipaaka(4) c) aruupa jhaana when in javana (in arahats) = aruupa kiriyaa a) rupa jhana = ruupa kusala(5) b) rupa jhana (not in javana)= rupa vipaka(only in ruupa brahma)(5) c) ruupa jhaana in arahats = ruupa kiriya (5) a) kaama kusala = mahaakusala cittas (8) b) kaama vipaaka= mahavipaaka cittas(8) [only in kaama beings] c) kaama kiriya = mahakiriya cittas (8) [only in arahats] 4 + 4 + 0 = 08 4 + 4 + 4 = 12 5 + 5 + 5 = 15 8 + 8 + 8 = 24 These 59 cittas are called beautiful consciousness or sobhana cittas. There are 30 non-beautiful consciousness or asobhana cittas. So 59 + 30 = 89 cittas in total. 30 asobhana cittas are a)[all kaama] akusala cittas (12) b)[7 from akusala + 8 from kusala ] vipaaka cittas(all kaama) = 15 c)[all kaama] kiriya cittas (3) [ one javana and 2 non-javana] So basically there are 3. a) kusala ( if not good akusala) b) vipaaka(results of kusala-akusala) c) kiriyaa(inoperative or functional) b) and c) are referred to as 'ABYAAKATA DHAMMA'. Kata means 'being done'. Byaa means 'two' 'both'. 'A' means 'not' 'no' 'none'. Abyaakata are those that are not kusala and that are not akusala. Vipaaka is not kusala or akusala. Kiriya is not kusala or akusala. So both vipaaka and kiriya are abyaakata. When there is no clear distinction on these matters you may say there are more than one ruupa jhaana. But ruupa jhaana is just one. Apology for long P.S. Htoo Naing 50751 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Three Doors... !!! mr39515 Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma.... Hi there... since you bring this up.... how about drinking or get drunk.... ?? metta mr39515 --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > Purity comes by Guarding the Three Doors of Action > (Kamma): > > Friends, there are these three purities: > > Purity of Mental Action ! > Purity of Verbal Action ! > Purity of Bodily Action ! > > Herein, what is purity of bodily action ? > It is the complete abstention from killing any > breathing beings, avoidance of taking > whatever is not freely given, & refraining from > any misbehaviour in sensual desires... > > Herein, what is purity of verbal action ? > It is abstention from any false lies, avoidance of > all aggressive speech, abstention > from divisive slandering speech, & refraining from > all idle & empty hear-say gossip... > > Herein, what is purity of mental action ? > It is non-envious non-greediness, kind & gentle > non-ill-will, and noble right view... <....> 50752 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Male or Female? sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, Thank you for your interesting post on this topic. --- htootintnaing wrote: Boon, > > Still there was a case where gender and sex both changed in the > presence of The Buddha. The case was a case of arahat. Before his > arahathood in that same life he was first a man. <...> > PS: Christine may have some links regarding this event. ... S: see if this is what you were talking about:-)) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50403 Metta, Sarah ======== 50753 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:58am Subject: Is that the first tetrad? htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Breathing was attended. Breathing was catched. Movements of breathing were cognized. Sometimes there were many movements, which already indicates there was a long breathing. Sometimes there were not as many movements as in other long breathing. It was short breathing and it was also recognized even though shortness was not directly attended. This longness-shortness were known because all the arising movements were cognized and perceived. As all movements were cognized this means that all movements that arose in any part of the whole body were cognized and perceived. When all these were cognized there already calmed and there were no forced breathing or reduced breathing or no controled breathing. The movements that arose were all attended with bare judgement. Because of absence of judgement there arose auto-judgement that these movements are just material phenomena. The attending mind that cognized, that perceived, that apperceived auto-judgement are all mental phenomena. Material phenomena and mental phenomena are not the same. They are completely different. When this difference was seen the breathing was already tranquilized. There was no one who was trying to tranquilize breathing. May you be free from suffering. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50754 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 191, and Tiika, Part II. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina & all, > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > thank you for giving this example again, I had forgotten. > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > Verse 43: Not a mother, nor a father, nor any other relative can do more > for the well-being of one than a rightly-directed mind can. > > At the end of the discourse many attained Sotapatti Fruition." > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your link. It is exactly the same as I read it long long time ago. The only difference is Myanmar and English. Now as i read your post my memory is being boostered again for Soreyya and Mahaakiccaya. With respect, Htoo Naing > ========= 50755 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: Different Approaches .... Utopian Dream of a Super Right View? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - You said, "So it is clear we need to read the suttas carefully, to appreciate that understanding has to develop and there can never be full understanding by abandoning (pahana parinna) if the earlier stages of insight, beginning with the insight into namas and rupas directly (~naatapari~n~naa) hasn't been realised first". But we only have one sutta on parinna that I quoted earlier: "And which is comprehension(parinna)? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. This is called comprehension (parinna)." How much more can you read into this very straightforward meaning given by the Buddha? I think while you were reading this sutta you just added those words that the Buddha did not speak to it. Where in this sutta (or elsewhere) did the Buddha define 'parinna' by the three stages of development? Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (& KenH), > (snipped) > > Note: > "Anabhijaan.m, etc, are present participles, glosses anabhijaananto, >etc. Spk: By 'directly knowing' (abhijaana.m), the full understanding >of the known (~naatapari~n~na) is indicated; by 'full understanding' > (parijaana.m), full understanding by scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa); > by 'beoming dispassionate' and 'abandoning', the full understanding as > abandonment (pahaanapari~n~naa)." > ***** 50756 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you for including me as an addressee. > James: Htoo, you have been stating many times that there is only >one type of rupa jhana, however this information states that there are > in fact three basic rupa jhanas: one kusala, one resultant, and one > inoperative. Now, I don't know the differences between these three > but it throws a whole new light on the discussion. Tep and I have > been arguing that there must be more than one type of rupa jhana >and here is some evidence to that effect. Any comments? Htoo: There is only one type of ruupa jhaana. What you referred to was just three lineages of that single ruupa jhaana. Tep: Here you tell James that there is only ONE rupa jhana that consists of THREE lineages. But earlier when we discussed samma- samadhi that was described by the 1st through the 4th jhanas you told me that there were SEVERAL samma-samadhi because there were the four arupa jhanas, etc. Is there an inconsistency here? No? Htoo: When there is no clear distinction on these matters you may say there are more than one ruupa jhaana. But ruupa jhaana is just one. Tep: So from now everyone should ask you first when "there is no clear distinction" in any dhamma? Suppose one day you cannot be found, then to whom should we go? [:>|) Best wishes, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear James, Tep and all, > > [Apology mods for not snipping because I think it is essential.] > > There is only one type of ruupa jhaana. What you referred to was just > three lineages of that single ruupa jhaana. > > When ruupa jhaana is developed then it is called 'ruupa-kusala'. But > when arahats develop ruupa jhaana it is no more kusala. It is called > inoperative ruupa-jhaana or functional ruupa-jhaana. Because there is no avijjaanusaya in arahats. > > Vipaaka-ruupa-jhaana are just life-continuing consciousness of ruupa- brahmaa or fine-material-beings. > > So apart from this distinction ruupa-jhaana is the same. > 50757 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:29am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhatrue Hi Htoo (and Tep), What you write here contradicts the quote I provided. This is a complicated matter so I will have to parse your post and apply the quote information: Htoo: There is only one type of ruupa jhaana. What you referred to was just three lineages of that single ruupa jhaana. James: This statement is meaningless. You would have to define what you mean by "lineages" for it to have any meaning. Htoo: When ruupa jhaana is developed then it is called 'ruupa- kusala'. But when arahats develop ruupa jhaana it is no more kusala. It is called inoperative ruupa-jhaana or functional ruupa-jhaana. James: This is not what the quote states. The quote states, "In the Sphere of Form there are three first jhanas - one kusala, one resultant and one inoperative. In Lokuttara there are eight first jhanas - one each in the four Paths and one each in the four Fruits. THUS THERE IN TOTAL ELEVEN FIRST JHANAS." Htoo, you are putting the jhana of the arahant (Lokuttara) under the category of inoperative jhana where this quote clearly states that it is not (do the math). Htoo: Vipaaka-ruupa-jhaana are just life-continuing consciousness of ruupa-brahmaa or fine-material-beings. James: Maybe so, but since you didn't get the first one right I'm not confident to believe you here. Metta, James ps. I couldn't figure out your p.s. I'm not good at reading formulas, only prose ;-). 50758 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? onco111 Tep, you truly crack me up! LOL :-) "Thorough familiarity with the key suttas on right view and the Four Noble Truths is necessary for a productive discussion with others..."?! Don't you really think what makes for a productive discussion is an open mind? Also helpful are probing questions and the courage to consider them in a new light. For example, imagine meeting a person who has zero familiarity with any suttas at all, but her ears perk up when she hears a brief discussion of the 4NT. She asks some questions and is genuinely interested in learning about the various nuances of sammaditthi. Because she hasn't studied the Dhamma before, she doesn't just parrot stock phrases without really understanding them; instead, she brings fresh light to the subject simply by asking hard questions from a different angle from what you are used to. Being of open mind and warm heart, you listen patiently and try to explain your own understanding of what the Buddha said. In the process of trying to answer her questions, you are forced to confront some of your own prejudices and misunderstandings. It turns out to be a very productive discussion. O, if only we could all be more like her! Or imagine someone who has studied the texts for four decades and has memorized the whole sutta pitaka but is unwilling to consider the texts deeply: "I refuse to discuss this question with you. The texts say, 'This is the way it is', so that's the way it is. End of discussion." O, if only the Buddh-Dhamma were that easy! Just sit down, read a few suttas, and presto! you have instant knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, supramundane Right View! You bring up the question of supramundane Right View, the view of the noble truths that marks liberation from samsara. What is that view? In Pali, it is referred to as 'yathabhutam pajanati' (DN 22) -- to know, see, understand dukkha (and its cause, cessation, and the path leading to cessation) as it truly is. This is something quite different from reading a text and nodding in agreement: "Yes, I agree with what the Buddha said, so I have right view." Then, in MN 2, supramundane Right View is discussed in the section entitled "taints to be abandoned by seeing." Now, do you suppose that he meant to put a discussion of Right View in the section on "taints to be abandoned by seeing"? If so, then MN 2 suggests that we read "Right View" as more of a seeing process than as a parroting- doctrinal-statements process. And, that by this right view, three fetters are abandoned. And Tep, I'm sorry to hear that your mind is closed to the ancient Theravada commentaries and to the comments of your contemporaries. I too found the commentaries and distasteful (or, more euphemistically, "unhelpful") until I'd been studying Dhamma for 15 years or so. Then, with the help of some patient and wise friends on dsg (RobertK was particularly helpful...and Sarah) a few years ago, I came to realize that when we first pick up the suttas, we inevitably have an elaborate and well-established framework for understanding the world in our own way. We become quite attached to our preconceived views. Words and ideas that challenge or contradict our prejudices are deemed "unhelpful". And of course they are! That is the deeply entrenched and dearly held net of views speaking to us and pulling out all stops to protect itself. That net of views rightly sees the commentaries as a mortal enemy and conjures up any number of excuses to dodge open-minded discussion with dsg friends and avoid difficult questions. ..... Earlier I asked: Dan: 1. Do you think of sammaditthi more along the lines of a cetasika (i.e., a paramattha dhamma that arises and passes away in a flash), or something softer like a generalized right thinking about things?" To which you responded: Tep: 1. I am sorry, I have no inclination along that line of thinking. --> The suttas you cited clearly suggest that sammaditthi is a characteristic of the mind and how the world is viewed moment-to- moment. Like any other characteristic, it arises and passes away with great rapidity. It is possible to let your preconceptions block your insight into the nature of sammaditthi, but if you ask penetrating questions about what is actually discussed in the suttas, those preconceptions cannot stand. If you get stuck (and say things like "I have no inclination along that line of thinking"), the commentaries can be very helpful in inspiring you to consider Dhamma more deeply and challenge your web of views, maybe even shatter it so that you will be free of the weight of maintaining such a web. ..... > 2. What do you see as the distinction between sammaditthi and > yathabhutan pajanati? > > Tep: > > 2. Yathbhutayana pajanati comes after samma-samadhi is > established. Samma-ditthi and the other six path factors support > samma-samadhi. Samasamadhi then supports samma-nana, > according to MN 117. Samma-nana subsumes yathabhutan pajanati. > > That is my understanding of the difference between sammaditthi and > yathabhutan pajanati. Although I have sought an adequate support of > the suttas (the Budhha's words), yet my deduction could be inaccurate > and I'd be glad to be corrected. "Yathabhuta pajanati" is nearly synonomous with sammaditthi but slightly more specific. You have already mentioned several good starting points in your message, but any starting point will require thorough investigation. MN 117 is a wonderful place to start, and I encourage you to look at it more than just superficially. In particular, do look at how the commentary to MN 117 describes the two kinds of right view discussed in the sutta. I've given you a starting point for that in my last post. Also, take a deeper look at the sammaditthi sutta (MN 9) (http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/sammaditthi.html). Allow the commentary to carry you into a more thorough consideration of the question. Then, go back for a deeper look at DN 22. In particular, compare the discussion of supramundane right view in MN 117 to the discussion of yathabhuta pajanati of the 4NT in DN 22. These two suttas (along with MN 9) paint a vivid picture of sammaditthi as yathabhuta pajanati -- supramundane right view is yathabhuta pajanati of 4NT and mundane right view is yathabhuta pajanati of a sankhata dhamma. Or is sammaditthi more along the lines of correct spouting of doctrinal statements? I realize that you prefer to avoid these questions, and that is fine. I can't help but ask them because they are central to the Dhamma. Metta, Dan > It was nice talking with you, Dan. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > I like your selection of suttas and other literature, Tep. > > Mahacattarisaka sutta in particular is one of my favorites (in the > > top 25 for sure). The section you quoted discusses the distinction > > between the two kinds of Right View, mundane and supramundane. > > > > The commentary elaborates on the meaning: "two kinds of right view > > are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates the > > formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right > > view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and > > effects the radical destruction of the defilements." (MA, BB trans., > > note 1100 in MLDB). > > > > I like that -- "Right view...investigates." It makes it sound like > > right view is an impersonal activity or process, not at all > > like "Right view is the spiritually correct opinion that a person > > holds." Indeed, the Pali for "right view of insight" is > > vipassanaasammaaditthii, which is a clear viewing of the tilakkhana. > > The word BB translates as "investigate" is pariviima.msati, which > may also be glossed as "examine". > > > > What I see in the suttas, then, is that (mundane) right view is > > seeing things as they are, rather than having correct opinions or > > good conceptual, intellectual understanding of the doctrine. > > 50759 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: Fleetingness & Dhamma similes nidive Hi Andrew, > I am interested in Ken H's questions on Right Concentration. In > particular, the question "Is Right Concentration fleeting or does it > persist for a measurable period of time?" > > In post #50,738, Swee Boon responded with "The more you practice, > the better it gets!" Swee Boon, would you mind giving a direct > answer to Ken H's question so that I don't confuse your position? My answer is as direct as it can be! Do you remember how you learnt to walk? Or have you observed how a toddler learnt to walk? Now you are no longer a toddler but a grown up. Tell me what are the wonderful things you can do with your legs ... > There are so many more, of course. My point is this, if the Buddha > struggled to find a simile for how quickly the mind changes, we can > be sure that the mind changes VERY quickly. I am happy to describe > the mind or consciousness as "fleeting". Before I get side-tracked, > can I ask both Tep and Swee Boon to comment on AN I, v, 8. What do > you think it means? How does that meaning sit with your > understanding of Right Concentration? Isn't AN I, v, 8 consistent > with the Abhidhammic version of how the mind works? If not, why? It only means that cittas and cetasikas arise and fall away very very very rapidly. Why would you want to read anything more into it? Regards, Swee Boon 50760 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:29am Subject: Laugh at someone? (Re: Different Approaches to ...) buddhatrue Hi All, This recent post by Dan which starts with, "Tep, you truly crack me up! LOL :-)" and some of the recent posts from Htoo which begin with "HA HA HA HA HA" make me wonder, is it okay to laugh at people? Granted, my speech can get harsh (usually unknowingly) but I don't think I have ever laughed at someone- at 'someone' not at something. Shouldn't we respect each other's dignity as human beings? Just a thought. Metta, James 50761 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:31am Subject: Laugh at someone? (Re: Different Approaches to ...) onco111 I dunno, James. I try not to get too hung up on the tone of others' posts. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > This recent post by Dan which starts with, "Tep, you truly crack me > up! LOL :-)" and some of the recent posts from Htoo which begin > with "HA HA HA HA HA" make me wonder, is it okay to laugh at people? > Granted, my speech can get harsh (usually unknowingly) but I don't > think I have ever laughed at someone- at 'someone' not at something. > Shouldn't we respect each other's dignity as human beings? Just a > thought. > > Metta, > James 50762 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:43am Subject: Laugh at someone? (Re: Different Approaches to ...) buddhistmedi... Hi, James, Dan D., and Htoo - Thank you, James, for asking the appropriate question "Shouldn't we respect each other's dignity as human beings?". >James: > > This recent post by Dan which starts with, "Tep, you truly crack me > up! LOL :-)" and some of the recent posts from Htoo which begin > with "HA HA HA HA HA" make me wonder, is it okay to laugh at people? > Granted, my speech can get harsh (usually unknowingly) but I don't > think I have ever laughed at someone- at 'someone' not at something. > Shouldn't we respect each other's dignity as human beings? Just a > thought. > Tep: I have been amused, simply amused, by the emotional responses of Dan and Htoo. They seemed to have shown frustration along with their LOL or "Ha, ha, ha" remarks. What a contradiction! Since I have given a pledge not to step on anybody's toes and to debate no more, so it is going to be difficult to defend my position or even to protect my toes from being stepped on. :-) Definitely, we could respect each other more if we would only focus on the dhamma, and if we could have a little more kindness for each other. Let me offer myself as an example : I am going to be a little kinder and more respectful to everyone from now. Hope to see responses of the similar kind from everyone! Is this asking too much? Best wishes, Tep ========== 50763 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:45am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? nidive Hi Tep, > 2. Yathbhutayana pajanati comes after samma-samadhi is > established. Samma-ditthi and the other six path factors support > samma-samadhi. Samasamadhi then supports samma-nana, > according to MN 117. Samma-nana subsumes yathabhutan pajanati. This is indeed what it should be! Thanks, Tep. Regards, Swee Boon 50764 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:13am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi Swee (Dan, James, Howard, Jon) - I appreciate your attention to this thread about right view. Why should anyone need any commentaries to understand right view, when we have available several great suttas on the subject? > > Swee: > > 2. Yathbhutayana pajanati comes after samma-samadhi is > > established. Samma-ditthi and the other six path factors support > > samma-samadhi. Samasamadhi then supports samma-nana, > > according to MN 117. Samma-nana subsumes yathabhutan pajanati. > > This is indeed what it should be! > > Thanks, Tep. Thank you for agreeing on this important point. But, you may be surprised to know that whenver I quoted MN 117 in the past (similar to the above -- to support my belief that clear understanding, right understanding, or direct understanding only come after right concentration), the same few members always jumped out and told me they disagreed. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > (snipped) > Regards, > Swee Boon 50765 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:20am Subject: Laugh at someone? (Re: Different Approaches to ...) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James, Dan D., and Htoo - I am going to be a little kinder and more respectful to everyone from now. Hope to see responses of the similar kind from everyone! Is this asking too much? Best wishes, Tep ========== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep, sometimes things happen together. Like in this case of Dan and me. Actually there is no connection with Dan in case of LOL/Ha ha ha ha business. My 'ha ha ha ha' arose independently. Because I was not angry and you thought I was angry. That is why I laugh. Even if my toes are stepped on, I will not be re-stepping on any toes of steppers, believe me. But as these two ( Dan and me ) happen together or almost together you deduce a thought and decide to be kinder and so on. Anyway good mind is always peaceful. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50766 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:15am Subject: Laugh at someone? (Re: Different Approaches to ...) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James, Dan D., and Htoo - < snip> Definitely, we could respect each other more if we would only focus on > the dhamma, and if we could have a little more kindness for each > other. Let me offer myself as an example : I am going to be a little > kinder and more respectful to everyone from now. Hope to see > responses of the similar kind from everyone! Is this asking too much? > > > Best wishes, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your post. Newton's third law of motion is always right. Kamma is always right. Dhamma is always right. There will be responses at no time or there will be responses simultaneously. With Metta, Htoo Naing 50767 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:37am Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? nidive Hi Tep, > Why should anyone need any commentaries to understand right view, > when we have available several great suttas on the subject? Well-said! The Buddha taught the complete Dhamma to liberation. > Thank you for agreeing on this important point. But, you may be > surprised to know that whenver I quoted MN 117 in the past > (similar to the above -- to support my belief that clear > understanding, right understanding, or direct understanding only > come after right concentration), the same few members always > jumped out and told me they disagreed. I understand ... I understand ... :-) Regards, Swee Boon 50768 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:41am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - Thank you for including me as an addressee. > James: Htoo, you have been stating many times that there is only >one type of rupa jhana, however this information states that there are > in fact three basic rupa jhanas: one kusala, one resultant, and one > inoperative. Now, I don't know the differences between these three > but it throws a whole new light on the discussion. Tep and I have > been arguing that there must be more than one type of rupa jhana >and here is some evidence to that effect. Any comments? > Htoo: There is only one type of ruupa jhaana. What you referred to was > just three lineages of that single ruupa jhaana. Tep: Here you tell James that there is only ONE rupa jhana that consists of THREE lineages. But earlier when we discussed samma- samadhi that was described by the 1st through the 4th jhanas you told me that there were SEVERAL samma-samadhi because there were the four arupa jhanas, etc. Is there an inconsistency here? No? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. There are only *one and one* ruupa jhaana. That is 1st ruupa jhaana is ruupa jhaana. 2nd ruupa jhaana is ruupa jhaana, 3rd ruupa jhaana is ruupa jhaana, 4th ruupa jhaana is ruupa jhaana. All are just ruupa jhaana. Please re-read what James and I were discussing. See the context. These discussions are interchange of thoughts and beliefs. These are not teaching. You know there are 4 kinds of ruupa jhaana. I know there are 4 kinds of ruupa jhaana. What James has been talking is that 'he seems to be saying that viipaaka cittas are jhaana.' I would say no. Because they are vipaaka and they just perform the function of life-continuation (bhavanga) , life-initiation (patisandhi) and life- cessation (cuti). So they are not jhaana. But I do understand what James is referring to. So I just said there is ONLY ONE jhaana. Kusala, vipaaka, kiriya are just lineages. Kusala creates kamma while vipaaka are already kaama- result while kiriyaa are inoperational or functional. That is inoperational are all without later results because there is no operation on actions that is actions are white, clean, pure, and kamma-less. So they are just 3 lineages of ruupacavara cittas. In that context, I do say there is only one and one jhaana. That is there is only one 1st jhaana, one 2nd jhaana, one 3rd jhaana, one 4th jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: When there is no clear distinction on these matters you may say there are more than one ruupa jhaana. But ruupa jhaana is just one. Tep: So from now everyone should ask you first when "there is no clear distinction" in any dhamma? Suppose one day you cannot be found, then to whom should we go? [:>|) Best wishes, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I may be leaving the internet soon. I have unfinished work. That is to reply 'Sukin's post'. I kept it as it was long and I did not have time on that day when it appeared. But now I could not search it again. Sarah, could you please link that post? Other unfinished business are 1. Rob M's revised copy of 'Theory behind The Buddha's smile' 2. Someone's thesis paper (Jesus is Arimetteyya) 3. Daniel's 'Inner Core of The Buddha's teachings'(? title wrong) 4. Mahaasii Sayadaw's 'Satipa.t.thhaana Vipassanaa' translated by someone ( I asked for proof-reading ) 5. Patthana.doc at DSList revised copy by Connie written by Amara and Varee (Still there are some spelling errors in that document but as I am banned by Amara I cannot continue that again) 6. Jinavamsa's 'Inner Palace' (? wrong title) My priority is 4th. That is Mahaasii's book translation. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 50769 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:54am Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo (and Tep), > > What you write here contradicts the quote I provided. This is a > complicated matter so I will have to parse your post and apply the > quote information: > > Htoo: There is only one type of ruupa jhaana. What you referred to > was just three lineages of that single ruupa jhaana. > > James: This statement is meaningless. You would have to define what > you mean by "lineages" for it to have any meaning. > > Htoo: When ruupa jhaana is developed then it is called 'ruupa- > kusala'. But when arahats develop ruupa jhaana it is no more kusala. > It is called inoperative ruupa-jhaana or functional ruupa-jhaana. > > James: This is not what the quote states. The quote states, "In the > Sphere of Form there are three first jhanas - one kusala, one > resultant and one inoperative. In Lokuttara there are eight first > jhanas - one each in the four Paths and one each in the four > Fruits. THUS THERE IN TOTAL ELEVEN FIRST JHANAS." Htoo, you are > putting the jhana of the arahant (Lokuttara) under the category of > inoperative jhana where this quote clearly states that it is not (do > the math). > > Htoo: Vipaaka-ruupa-jhaana are just life-continuing consciousness > of ruupa-brahmaa or fine-material-beings. > > James: Maybe so, but since you didn't get the first one right I'm > not confident to believe you here. > > Metta, > James > ps. I couldn't figure out your p.s. I'm not good at reading > formulas, only prose ;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, I might have missed the target and I might have missed the point. This was already explained in my P.S to be honest. Please re-read the P.S again. This will explain you why I said in my discussion. I do know there are 11 1st jhaana cittas. But this is classification and not all these are ruupaavacara-ruupa jhaana. Because there are 8 lokuttara cittas. If these 8 lokuttara cittas are included in jhaana cittas then my classification of kusala, vipaaka, kiriya will not be working and you might go mad if you read without my P.S. Lokuttara cittas are kusala or vipaaka. There is no lokuttaraa kiriya cittas. I have already explained in my P.S. You did not get this because you DID NOT READ my P.S. Are there any lokuttaraa kiriya cittas? I was just talking on ruupavacara cittas only. Because ruupaavacara cittas are *ONLY RUUPA JHAANA*. 8 1st jhaana lokuttara cittas are all NOT RUUPAAVACARA CITTAS. They are all lokuttaraa cittas. But by the reason of classification if these 8 lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of 1st ruupa jhaana that is if these 8 lokuttara cittas arise with the power of 1st ruupa jhaana they can be classified as 1st jhaana lokuttaraa cittas. But these 8 1st jhaana lokuttaraa cittas are never never never ruupaavacara-ruupa-jhaana cittas. There is a saying. If you hold 'khanti', you will attain nibbana. If you are angry there is no khanti and there will never be nibbana. Anger may arise in subtle form when a point that was self-approved turns not to be the same with others that are approved by others. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Jhaana and lokuttaraa are always confused. Forgivable. 50770 From: nina Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:32am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, ****** Nina. 50771 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Laugh at someone? (Re: Different Approaches to ...) onco111 Hi Tep (and Swee and James), I couldn't agree more! Let's cut the sanctimonious finger pointing and discuss Dhamma. Metta, Dan > Definitely, we could respect each other more if we would only focus on > the dhamma, and if we could have a little more kindness for each > other. Let me offer myself as an example : I am going to be a little > kinder and more respectful to everyone from now. Hope to see > responses of the similar kind from everyone! Is this asking too much? 50772 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/28/05 2:38:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > If we go back to the past four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand > aeons, there were layfollowers at that time and these may also at this time > be layfollowers who have not realized yet the four noble Truths. If we go > forward to the future four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand > aeons, people do not know either whether they will attain enlightenment. But > if we had never listened to the Dhamma, we would not be listening at this > moment, today. ======================= Nina, there are two things that trouble me the foregoing. One of these is the talk of layfollowers "four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand aeons" in the past. Would that be on THIS planet? From all that we know, that hardly seems likely. In that regard, in some suttas society at that time gets described the same as the Indian society circa 1500 BCE, and the names of people were Indian names! Also rather implausible. The second of these is the statement "But if we had never listened to the Dhamma, we would not be listening at this moment, today." On the basis of that reasoning, anyone who ever hears the Dhamma would have to have heard it in infinitely many prior lifetimes, because each hearing would require a prior hearing. This is also highly implausible, if not illogical. It seems to me that this sort of business detracts from the core Dhamma of dukkha and the escape from dukkha, which, as the Buddha said, is all that he taught. ["Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha."— SN XXII.86] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 50773 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 0:32pm Subject: Laugh at someone? A Gentlemen Agreement buddhistmedi... Hi Dan and Htoo (and James) - I am thankful for your cooperation. ------------------------------------- # 50766: Dear Tep, Thanks for your post. Newton's third law of motion is always right. Kamma is always right. Dhamma is always right. There will be responses at no time or there will be responses simultaneously. With Metta, Htoo Naing #50771: Hi Tep (and Swee and James), I couldn't agree more! Let's cut the sanctimonious finger pointing and discuss Dhamma. Metta, Dan -------------------------- Kind and warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Tep (and Swee and James), 50774 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Question 1 for #50363. /A Lame Excuse! buddhatrue Hi Htoo (and Tep), Htoo: Lokuttara cittas are kusala or vipaaka. There is no lokuttaraa kiriya cittas. I have already explained in my P.S. You did not get this because you DID NOT READ my P.S. James: I did read your P.S., as I told you. Do you think I am lying? I read it once through and tried very hard not to let my eyes glaze over. Then I spot read it for any signs of something I might comprehend. I couldn't comprehend hardly one single thing (except the statement at the end forgiving my misunderstanding, or some such thing- which Tep caught and which I found unnecessary.) Your stilted English and abundant Pali (even spelled in an unfamiliar way with lots of extra letters) make for a mixture of incomprehensibility for me. You might as well have written your p.s. in hieroglyphics. It's strange because I can understand the author of the article I quoted to you, and he is discussing the same thing. Oh well, I can't understand your latest post either. I guess we should drop it. Metta, James 50775 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:19pm Subject: Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Dan D. (and all ) - Now it is right time for me to respond to your post #50758, after our gentlemen agreement has been made. Peaceful bystanders should be aware that Dan's sarcasm you see below was before he made a promise to be a little kinder (please see the "Gentlemen Agreement" thread). Dan, your main points are listed along with my objective replies as follows. 1. Responding to my remark , Dan asked, "Don't you really think what makes for a productive discussion is an open mind?" Dan also added: " Also helpful are probing questions and the courage to consider them in a new light." Tep: Of course, open-mindedness is one of other factors that contribute to a productive discussion. However, when somebody with a misguided view shines "a new light" for me to follow, I reserve the right to say no. Probing questions that are conducive to discovering truths are fine with me. 2. Or imagine someone who has studied the texts for four decades and has memorized the whole sutta pitaka but is unwilling to consider the texts deeply: "I refuse to discuss this question with you. The texts say, 'This is the way it is', so that's the way it is. End of discussion." O, if only the Buddh-Dhamma were that easy! Just sit down, read a few suttas, and presto! you have instant knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, supramundane Right View! Tep: Let alone the Buddha's Teachings, even a textbook like "College Physics" is not easy to understand clearly. Practical experience and wise observation of the observed truths (the laws of Physics, the Four Noble Truths, ...) are a thousand times more important than reading, or listening to lectures and discussion. 3. Then, in MN 2, supramundane Right View is discussed in the section entitled "taints to be abandoned by seeing." Now, do you suppose that he meant to put a discussion of Right View in the section on "taints to be abandoned by seeing"? If so, then MN 2 suggests that we read "Right View" as more of a seeing process than as a parroting- doctrinal-statements process. And, that by this right view, three fetters are abandoned. Tep: It is very clear to me that some asavas are abandoned by means of yoniso-manasikara of the Four Noble Truths (MN 2), or dhammanupassana as explained in DN 22. MN 2 tells me that knowing the definitions of the four ariya-sacca alone is not sufficient to eradicate the first three fetters. I cannot imagine why you talked about the "parroting-doctrinal-statements process"; it is irrelevant. 4. And Tep, I'm sorry to hear that your mind is closed to the ancient Theravada commentaries and to the comments of your contemporaries. I too found the commentaries and distasteful (or, more euphemistically, "unhelpful") until I'd been studying Dhamma for 15 years or so. Tep: Are you sure you carefully read my previous post? I do quote from the Visuddhimagga quite often, so my mind is not closed to those commentaries. I am just wisely selective about the non-sutta materials; I am not putting them down like you are accusing me of doing. 5. --> The suttas you cited clearly suggest that sammaditthi is a characteristic of the mind and how the world is viewed moment-to- moment. Like any other characteristic, it arises and passes away with great rapidity. Tep: A paragraph of an email on the computer screen also is being refreshed rapidly; and because of continuity we still see the "same" paragraph right there, although every 0-1 code arises and passes away all the time. But it is not relevant; what is relevant in this case is the email message that you have written. Similarly, it is theoretically "not helpful" to discuss the arising and passing-away nature of the knowledge of the Noble Truths. The relevancy is in the developing of samma-ditthi -- that through dhammanupassana of the Noble Truths, it eradicates the first three fetters (MN 2). This process surely takes a long practice with training(sikkha). 6. It is possible to let your preconceptions block your insight into the nature of sammaditthi, but if you ask penetrating questions about what is actually discussed in the suttas, those preconceptions cannot stand. If you get stuck (and say things like "I have no inclination along that line of thinking"), the commentaries can be very helpful in inspiring you to consider Dhamma more deeply and challenge your web of views, maybe even shatter it so that you will be free of the weight of maintaining such a web. Tep: Asking "penetrating questions about what is actually discussed in the suttas" is not the same as the dhammanupassana (DN 22), or yonoso-manasikara(MN2), of the Four Noble Truths. You don't need to depend on commentaries all the time (remember: be selective); DN 22 and MN 2 are super clear. No imagined "web". 7. MN 117 is a wonderful place to start, and I encourage you to look at it more than just superficially. In particular, do look at how the commentary to MN 117 describes the two kinds of right view discussed in the sutta. I've given you a starting point for that in my last post. Also, take a deeper look at the sammaditthi sutta (MN 9). ... Then, go back for a deeper look at DN 22. In particular, compare the discussion of supramundane right view in MN 117 to the discussion of yathabhuta pajanati of the 4NT in DN 22. These two suttas (along with MN 9) paint a vivid picture of sammaditthi as yathabhuta pajanati -- supramundane right view is yathabhuta pajanati of 4NT and mundane right view is yathabhuta pajanati of a sankhata dhamma. Or is sammaditthi more along the lines of correct spouting of doctrinal statements? I realize that you prefer to avoid these questions, and that is fine. I can't help but ask them because they are central to the Dhamma. Tep: Thank you for telling about your studying approach. We have different objectives, it seems. Yours is in intellectual understanding; mine is in eradicating the first three fetters. I don't have any interest in "correct spouting of doctrinal statements" either. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Tep, you truly crack me up! LOL :-) > > "Thorough familiarity with the key suttas on right view and the Four > Noble Truths is necessary for a productive discussion with > others..."?! > (snipped) 50776 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? dacostacharles Hi all, I like the following so much that I thought it was worth repeating. I would add "(i.e., something that can not be completely owned or controlled)" to the end of "non-self" to clarify its meaning, symbolism, and purpose. §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ Thorough familiarity with the key suttas on right view and the Four Noble Truths is necessary for a productive discussion with others; these key suttas are, for instance: MN 117, SN XLV.8, MN 9, SN XII.15, AN V.25, MN 28, DN 22, and MN 2. If you have additional suttas to contribute to my list, it will be gladly accepted. Dan D. : What I see in the suttas, then, is that (mundane) right view is seeing things as they are, rather than having correct opinions or good conceptual, intellectual understanding of the doctrine. Tep: My understanding, based on the suttas, is different. Right view (samma ditthi) in the nutshell is simply the knowledge (nana) of the Four Noble Truths, according to SN XLV.8 and DN 22. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress(dukkha), knowledge with regard to the origination of stress(dukka samudaya) , knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress(dukkha nirodha), knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress (atthangika-magga) : This, monks, is called right view". ------------------------------------------- Dan D. : The commentary elaborates on the meaning: "two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates the formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of the defilements." (MA, BB trans., note 1100 in MLDB). Tep: Contemplation(dhammanupassana) of right view is extremely beneficial for Stream-entry, because the first three fetters can be eliminated by the 'yoniso-manasikara' of the Four Noble Truths. According to MN 2 : "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing". I have often found that commentaries of the ancients, as well as those of lay persons and monks who are contemporary with us, are far less helpful than these two great suttas SN XLV.8 and Mn 2. Please seriously study them, several times, over and over. I believe you don't need any guidance from anybody else. ------------------------------- §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ I think the problem is that often we become so attached to a doctrine that it becomes allmost impossible to see when it does not apply (fails to be an unconditioned truth). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Wednesday, 28 September, 2005 01:22 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? Hi, Dan D. (Attn. Ken H., James, Htoo, Swee, Sarah, Nina) - Thorough familiarity with the key suttas on right view and the Four Noble Truths is necessary for a productive discussion with others; these key suttas are, for instance: MN 117, SN XLV.8, MN 9, SN XII.15, AN V.25, MN 28, DN 22, and MN 2. If you have additional suttas to contribute to my list, it will be gladly accepted. <....> 50777 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Things as they truely are dacostacharles Hi all, I liked this post so I thought it worth repeating. I would have to ask: "And what is that kind of control?" §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ > Is right concentration fleeting, or; > does it persist for a measurable period of time? The more you practice, the better it gets! > Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of > control? Certainly! > Is the object of right concentration a concept or; > a paramattha dhamma? No such distinction is made by the Buddha in the suttas, in my opinion. > Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; > are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have > progressed further along the path) ? Relevant here and now! §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nidive Sent: Tuesday, 27 September, 2005 18:40 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Things as they truely are Hi Ken H, > Is it concentration that arises; > with ignorance and wrong view; > with ignorance but without wrong; > without ignorance but also without right view, or; > only with right view? http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-117-tb0.html > Is right concentration fleeting, or; > does it persist for a measurable period of time? The more you practice, the better it gets! > Is right concentration something over which there can some kind of > control? Certainly! > Is the object of right concentration a concept or; > a paramattha dhamma? No such distinction is made by the Buddha in the suttas, in my opinion. > Are the above distinctions relevant here and now or; > are they not relevant here and now (but maybe later when we have > progressed further along the path) ? Relevant here and now! Regards, Swee Boon 50778 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? dacostacharles Hi Teb, You stated: "... you may be surprised to know that whenever I quoted MN 117 in the past (similar to the above -- to support my belief that clear understanding, right understanding, or direct understanding only come after right concentration), the same few members always jumped out and told me they disagreed." So how did they prove you had the wrong understanding of the suttra, or that the suttra is wrong? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? Hi Swee (Dan, James, Howard, Jon) - I appreciate your attention to this thread about right view. Why should anyone need any commentaries to understand right view, when we have available several great suttas on the subject? > > Swee: > > 2. Yathbhutayana pajanati comes after samma-samadhi is > > established. Samma-ditthi and the other six path factors support > > samma-samadhi. Samasamadhi then supports samma-nana, > > according to MN 117. Samma-nana subsumes yathabhutan pajanati. > > This is indeed what it should be! > > Thanks, Tep. ==== used above =============== Tep 50779 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Male or Female? mr39515 Send IM Send Email Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma.... Hi there... I wanted to reply to this earlier but did not get the proper chance. Sorry for the delay. So I see that the question is about the explaination in Abhidhamma. In Abhidhamma, the ultimate truth is divided to Nama/Rupa and Nibbana. Rupa consist of 28 Elements. Sex Element (Bhava) consist of 2 types: 1. Faculty of Femininity (Itthidria) 2. Faculty of Masculinity (Purisindriya) Both sex elements are subtle which means can NOT be seen by naked eyes or touched. The moment of conception, sex element arises and will spread thru all over our body. Physical appearance or looks are only "Mark and Sign" and NOT experience by sex elements. For some people, sex element are NOT spread all over their body thus resulting in a combination of 2 sex elements. Example: a man who has a voice of a woman..... woman may have the body build of a man etc. And for the more extreme cases is having 2 sex organs at the same time. Sex Elements are dependant of Kamma which means created by Kamma. So in simple langauge, appearance will just give us some clues whether one is a male or female. Sex depands on how well the 2 sex faculty spread thru our body. Sex Elements is two of the 28 Rupa (Matter), subtle and formation of kamma. And the best part is, sex elements like consciousness arises and fall every 17 moments. Thus sex elements are im-permanance and non-self. So if one create a heavy immediate effective kamma (just like some of the stories you all brought up), sex element changes as they are Conditions Dhamma created by Kamma. So in Buddhist sense, there is a possibility of sex change.... hahaha oh ya.... Sex Elements do not arise in Rupa planes.... but beings in Rupa planes appear to look like male. Hope this helps Metta mr39515 --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I remember Nina once talked about a dhamma that > determines if one is > a > male or a female. <....> 50780 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles D. (and all)- I am glad to read your feedback on the earlier discussion of "Dan's Right View". Charles D. : I like the following so much that I thought it was worth repeating. I would add "(i.e., something that can not be completely owned or controlled)" to the end of "non-self" to clarify its meaning, symbolism, and purpose. I think the problem is that often we become so attached to a doctrine that it becomes allmost impossible to see when it does not apply (fails to be an unconditioned truth). Tep: Yes, indeed. This addition is a very helpful reminder about anatta. It is easy, very easy for one to become so attached to the not- self "doctrine" that it becomes an obsession. Then his/her eyes are closed by the self demon. ^_* Thank you, Charles. With sincere appreciation, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi all, > (snipped) . > > §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ > Thorough familiarity with the key suttas on right view and the Four > Noble Truths is necessary for a productive discussion with others; > these key suttas are, for instance: MN 117, SN XLV.8, MN 9, SN XII.15, > AN V.25, MN 28, DN 22, and MN 2. If you have additional suttas to > contribute to my list, it will be gladly accepted. > > Dan D. : What I see in the suttas, then, is that (mundane) right view is > seeing things as they are, rather than having correct opinions or > good conceptual, intellectual understanding of the doctrine. > > Tep: My understanding, based on the suttas, is different. Right view > (samma ditthi) in the nutshell is simply the knowledge (nana) of the Four Noble Truths, according to SN XLV.8 and DN 22. "And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress(dukkha), knowledge with regard to the origination of stress(dukka samudaya) , knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress(dukkha nirodha), knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress (atthangika-magga) : This, monks, is called right view". > ------------------------------------------- > Dan D. : The commentary elaborates on the meaning: "two kinds of > right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates > the formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right > view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and > effects the radical destruction of the defilements." (MA, BB trans., > note 1100 in MLDB). > > Tep: Contemplation(dhammanupassana) of right view is extremely > beneficial for Stream-entry, because the first three fetters can be > eliminated by the 'yoniso-manasikara' of the Four Noble Truths. > According to MN 2 : "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is > the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the > way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in > this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and > grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations > to be abandoned by seeing". > > I have often found that commentaries of the ancients, as well as those > of lay persons and monks who are contemporary with us, are far less > helpful than these two great suttas SN XLV.8 and Mn 2. Please > seriously study them, several times, over and over. I believe you don't need any guidance from anybody else. > ------------------------------- > §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ > 50781 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: Fleetingness & Dhamma similes corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Andrew, [snip] > My answer is as direct as it can be! > > Do you remember how you learnt to walk? Or have you observed how a > toddler learnt to walk? > > Now you are no longer a toddler but a grown up. Tell me what are the > wonderful things you can do with your legs ... > > > > There are so many more, of course. My point is this, if the Buddha > > struggled to find a simile for how quickly the mind changes, we can > > be sure that the mind changes VERY quickly. I am happy to describe > > the mind or consciousness as "fleeting". Before I get side- tracked, > > can I ask both Tep and Swee Boon to comment on AN I, v, 8. What do > > you think it means? How does that meaning sit with your > > understanding of Right Concentration? Isn't AN I, v, 8 consistent > > with the Abhidhammic version of how the mind works? If not, why? > > It only means that cittas and cetasikas arise and fall away very very > very rapidly. > > Why would you want to read anything more into it? Dear Swee Boon Thanks for clarifying these questions for me. I don't know why, but I had the impression that you did not accept teachings about cittas and cetasikas as coming from the Buddha because the term 'cetasikas' does not appear in the suttas. From your answer above, that is clearly not the case. If I am correct, Tep dismisses talk of fleeting cetasikas as being no part of the true Dhamma because the term comes from Abhidhamma and not suttas. That being so, I will be interested to hear his interpretation of the AN quote I gave and how he sees its relevance (if any) to Right Concentration. Thanks again and best wishes Andrew T 50782 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Different Approaches to Anatta? -- What is Dan's Right view? buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Charles D. - You asked an interesting question ! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Teb, > > You stated: > > "... you may be surprised to know that whenever I quoted MN 117 in the past (similar to the above -- to support my belief that clear understanding, right understanding, or direct understanding only come after right concentration), the same few members always jumped out and told me they disagreed." > > So how did they prove you had the wrong understanding of the suttra, or that the suttra is wrong? > Tep: Nobody has been bold enough to reject a sutta I have quoted by saying that "it is wrong", Charles. They either say one of the followings: A. The sutta that I have quoted is insufficient. Or, they say, I should review more suttas. B. The sutta is difficult to understand and they choose to believe some commentaries. C. There is another translation of it that seems to contradict the one I have quoted. D. Using only the suttas is insufficient; I should include all commentaries of the ancients too. Of course, they all reject my understanding if it disagrees with them, or with their teacher, or with the commentaries. In short, they say, in effect, if you want to get our approval, then follow our rules. Question: Have you found my sutta understanding wrong less than 50% of the time, more than 50% of the time, more than 75% of the time, or more than 90% of the time? Kind regards, Tep ========= 50783 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are kenhowardau HI Htoo (Swee Boon and Tep), Htoo wrote: ---------- > Thanks for your questions on 'right concentration'. If it is NEP's right concentration it is perfected right concentration with right view without any ignorance to anything. That is it has to be free from ignorance to suffering, the cause of suffering, cessation of suffering and the path leading to cessation of suffering. It is just fleeting. > --------------------- Thank you for answering some of my questions. In case the reason for asking them was not clear, I will explain. Swee Boon made some remarks extolling the virtues of right concentration. Without doubting those virtues, I assumed his remarks were directed at those of us who place "too much emphasis" on right understanding. Perhaps I am overly sensitive. :-) Anyway, you congratulated Swee Boon by saying; "Thanks for your remarks of concentration-lover's view. Without right concentration things will never be seen very clearly." (End of message) I can only assume you were agreeing with Swee Boon. In other words, you think there should be a separate practice for concentration because the concentration conditioned to arise with right view *as forerunner* is insufficient. You think people who emphasise right view cannot be lovers of right concentration. If I asked you straight out, you would agree with both sides of the story. :-) Therefore, I asked a series of questions. (BTW, sorry for the typo - "wrong" instead of "wrong view".) My questions were intended to show how the kind of concentration you and Swee Boon were extolling could not possibly be right concentration. Before you begin your formal concentration practice, do you make sure there will be no ignorance and wrong view? How could you be sure? How could you be sure you won't be developing wrong view, wrong concentration and the wrong path? If your practice doesn't contain that certainty, can it be the practice taught by the Buddha? Did he teach a practice of "hit and miss?" I won't go through all the questions. They raise the same points that have been raised a thousand times on DSG. I just like to phrase them differently, even if it's only for my benefit. :-) Ken H 50784 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:53pm Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo (and kenH) - KenH asked you several questions that he doesn't have clear ideas about. So I had asked him to give out his answers first. >Htoo: > It is good to ask the answers first. Tep: He has not yet responded to my request; moreover, he is now back at you again ! So, what is your defense? With sympathy, Tep ======= 50785 From: "matt roke" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:59pm Subject: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... mattroke Dear Phil, >the problem is mine - if there is so much aversion to others' posts >and so much greed about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a >break. Just in case you are reading posts. Dhammas of nama and rupa, arising and falling away, give rise to the concept that there is a world and I exist in it. Nama dhammas (cita and chetasikas) have characteristics that never change, however, what nama experiences gives rise to concepts that will vary. Because of conditions and rupas experienced there is the concept “I am Philip, I am living in Japan, I am married to a Japanese, I was born in such a place, these are my parents and family, I grew up here and went to school there, this is my occupation, I like this and I don’t like that, and etc”. Had conditions been different and nama had arisen and experienced different rupas then the thoughts that now arise may be “I am James, I am living in . . . . . etc. Because of conditions there are concepts of being of a particular, nationality, race, religion, intelligence, nature and having certain views and beliefs, but had conditions been different then the concepts would not be the same. No matter what concepts nama and rupa condition, because of ignorance, there arises thinking with the thoughts, “this is me, this is who I am, these are my beliefs”. The concepts that arise as beliefs are conditioned, but because they do arise they are taken to be “my beliefs”, and just like the concepts of “me” and “mine” they are clung to. That nama and rupa arise is not a choice. That the sense doors arise is not a choice. That chetasikas have this or that characteristic is not a choice. That nama experiences this or that rupa is not a choice. That concepts about ourselves arise and come into being is not a choice. That concepts about the world arise is not a choice. That Dhamma is heard or not heard in not a choice. That there is understanding or no understanding of Dhamma is not a choice. That concepts arise and think “this is me and this is who I am” is not a choice. That there is thinking “this is the right way and that is the wrong way” is not a choice. And yet there is clinging to concepts as “this is me, this is who I am, these are my views”. When young there was clinging to certain views and now when older there is clinging to different views. Had nama and rupa conditioned different concepts there would be clinging to those ideas now, because they are the ideas that are conditioned to arise as thinking. And because there is clinging to them there are conditions for aversion. When dhamma moments are not known then there is nothing else but stories and the akusala baggage that comes with them. There is lobha for concepts, there is pride because of concepts, there is aversion towards others because they have different views or they criticize us or our beliefs, there are feelings of being hurt, there is regret, there is blame and there are thoughts of being sorry. When there is more understanding of the dhamma moments which create the story, then there is more understanding that there are only dhamma moments with their characteristics and no story. There is better understanding that the dhamma moments have only their characteristic and there is no self or world or views in them, that they fall away and that they do not stay, so they are unsatisfactory. When there are only concepts about Dhamma, then there are conditions for aversion towards others who do not share our beliefs and views. When there is insight into the characteristics of dhammas then there is mutual understanding of what reality is. Matt R 50786 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:53pm Subject: Sand-Castles ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What causes this possessive clinging to what is Painful? At Savatthi, while seated, Venerable Radha asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, one says: "A Being!" In what way, Sir, is one a being? One is stuck, Radha, tightly stuck, in desire, lust, delight, & craving for form; therefore is one called a being! One is trapped, strongly trapped, in yearning, greed, fascination, & craving for feeling, for perception, for mental constructions & for consciousness, in so far as this violent force of clinging is active, is one called a being... !!! Imagine, Radha, some small boys & girls are playing with sand castles. So long as they are not devoid of lust, desire, affection, attraction, delight, thirst, greed, & craving for those sand castles, then they will like them, play with them, treasure them, and treat them possessively... But as soon as the small boys & girls lose their lust, desire, affection, attraction, delight, thirst, greed, & craving for those sand castles, then they scatter them with their hands & feet, bulldoze them, shatter them, and eradicate them! So too should you, Radha, scatter form, destroy it, shatter it, eradicate it by practicing for the stilling of craving for form. You should scatter feeling, scatter perception, scatter constructions, & scatter consciousness, demolish it, shatter it, put it out of action, by the practicing of the destruction of craving. For the destruction of craving, Radha, is peace, is freedom, is bliss, is Nibbana... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 23:2 III 190 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 50787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... nilovg Hi Matt, I frwd your letter to Phil. I am glad you gave explanations about conditions that make us act, speak or think in such and such a way. Nina. op 29-09-2005 05:59 schreef matt roke op mattroke@...: > When there are only concepts about Dhamma, then there are conditions for > aversion towards others who do not share our beliefs and views. When there > is insight into the characteristics of dhammas then there is mutual > understanding of what reality is. 50788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Male or Female? nilovg Hi NG Boon. Being born a woman is the result of kusala kamma that is weaker than birth as a man. But the Buddha said: both can develop understanding and reach arahatship. This is the only thing that matters. Nina. op 28-09-2005 15:33 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > The moment of conception, sex element arises and will > spread thru all over our body. Physical appearance or > looks are only "Mark and Sign" and NOT experience by > sex elements. 50789 From: nina Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 0:01am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 196 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 196 and Tiika. Text Vis.196: By this, too, it is shown that the materiality aggregate is all materiality, which all comes into the collection with the characteristic of being molested; for there is no materiality aggregate apart from materiality. And just as in the case of materiality, so also feeling, etc., [are respectively shown as the feeling aggregate, etc.,] since they come under the collections with the [respective] characteristics of being felt, etc.; for there is no feeling aggregate apart from feeling and so on. ---- N: The Tiika states that all ruupas are similar as to their nature and are thus taught as being ruupakkhandha. Just as all the different rupas classified in many ways under many aspects were summarized and all taken together as one group or khandha, evenso all the different feelings are taken togetherand classified as one khandha. As we read in Vis. Ch XIV, 81: < ...whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate..> As the Tiika states: "Has the characteristic of being felt" means that it has as its characteristic what is felt, what is experienced as the "taste (stimulus)" of the object.> ***** Nina. 50790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Hi Howard, op 28-09-2005 21:26 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: ....If we go >> forward to the future four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand >> aeons, people do not know either whether they will attain enlightenment. But >> if we had never listened to the Dhamma, we would not be listening at this >> moment, today. > ======================= > Nina, there are two things that trouble me the foregoing. > One of these is the talk of layfollowers "four incalculable periods > and a hundred thousand aeons" in the past. Would that be on THIS planet? From > all that we know, that hardly seems likely. In that regard, in some suttas > society at that time gets described the same as the Indian society circa 1500 > BCE, > and the names of people were Indian names! Also rather implausible. ------- N: To me it does not matter. Also aeons ago there were seeing, hearing, thinking with lobha, dosa, moha, and also listening to the Dhamma. Just like now. Also in the suttas the Buddha mentioned former Buddhas he listened to, who lived aeons ago. World systems evcolve and dissolve and in between there are also times without the Buddha Dhamma, there is no opportunity to listen. This is a lesson not to waste our time. ------- H: The second of these is the statement "But if we had never listened to > the Dhamma, we would not be listening at this moment, today." On the basis of > that reasoning, anyone who ever hears the Dhamma would have to have heard it > in infinitely many prior lifetimes, because each hearing would require a prior > hearing. This is also highly implausible, if not illogical. --------- N: Listening to the Dhamma, not just hearing someone talk. Listening implies considering, paying attention, developing understanding of what one hears, right at that moment. It is a rare occasion to listen to the Dhamma. Some people hear Dhamma talk and become irritated, as soon as they hear the word dukkha. Someone else may have sincere interest and develop understanding. All this does not occur without the proper conditions, also stemming from the past, even from past lives. The Buddha had to listen to many other Buddhas and renew his vows, life after life. He accumulated paññaa and the other perfections, life after life. One may use the expression conditional relations, but this should be seen in a very concrete way, not in an abstract way. A person is born at a certain time in a certain place and this is conditioned by kamma. He is associating with people who have the same interests, who have wrong views or right view. This is conditioned by his accumulated tendencies. Summarizing: different people may listen to the Dhamma and react differently, take to the wrong practice or to the right practice. This does not happen without the proper condiitons. --------- H: It seems to me that this sort of business detracts from the core > Dhamma of dukkha and the escape from dukkha, which, as the Buddha said, is all > that > he taught. ["Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the > cessation of dukkha."‹ SN XXII.86] --------- N: Yes, and who can grasp these profound truths? The four noble Truths cannot be penetrated without the proper conditions. No escape from dukkha if there is no right understanding what the eightfold Path is and in what way, at what time it can be developed. If not now, when? Nina. 50791 From: "khcheah33" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:11am Subject: Doing dana with wisdom? khcheah33 Hi all, I like to relate a "dana encounter" with one Mr Suresh, an Indian food-stall owner friend of mine during my lunch break yesterday. Hope this will be of interest to some Dhamma friends. I was taking my lunch there when Mr Suresh walk over to my table (a very rare free moments of his); & greeted me: "Hi Cheah, how r you?" Suddenly I recalled having 'sold' to Mr Suresh some 'Charity coupons'{a fund raising event* at Sri Jayanti Buddhist Temple on Aug 25, 2005, pls see footnote} two months back. "Hi Suresh, sorry I forgot to remind you of the 'Charity fair' held last Sunday (Aug 25). If I recall rightly, I did not see you there?" Suresh(smiling) : "Mr Cheah, it's OK. I didn't plan to go anyway. I made a donation(dana) to the temple. So why must I go back to the temple and take back something?" The next instant saw me putting my palms in an //anjali// gesture and saying "Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu Mr Suresh. May I rejoice in your good merits too." "That's our Buddhist way of saying excellent for a wholesome act done. May your business prosper." Suresh continued : "Thanks. I think it'll be meaningless if I make a donation & then I want something back in return. Might as well we do a barter trade. I only wish for good health & happiness." {Here, I would say there is Right Understanding accompanied by wisdom whether prompted or otherwise, but with a tinge of wrong view - atachment to a self.} I feel there was this inner dim light that suddenly shone brightly in me, admiring this gentleman's good wisdom. May he enjoy the fruits of his kusala deeds in the immediate future. Contrary to the above, this was the scenario at my office the morning after the Charity event. One of my collegues who missed the fair :"Aiyaaa... I wasted my coupons lah. No time to go yesterday." Another chipped in : "Me too. Forgot totally. What a waste." Maybe 'ignorance'//avijja// is the overriding factor here. Didn't I say that I'm still learning something new about the Dhamma everyday and who knows the daily learnings (gaining panna) may somehow give us better grounding in our strive to our final goal, Nibbana. So we should maintain awareness and mindfulness in our daily actions. Reflecting on the above, this comes to mind : Didn't our Great Teacher once observed that: `There are uncountable beings who have much dust in their eyes . . . but still there are some who have little dust in their eyes . . . ` while contemplating on 'to whom He should teach the Dhamma in the world'. Maybe the two contrasting 'real-life' examples above could be of help to my abhidhamma friends who are currently revising the different classes of akusala & kusala cittas. With Metta & Best Wishes, KH Cheah P.S. This is an annual fund-raising Charity event organised by the Caring-&-Sharing Group of Sri Jayanti Buddhist Temple, Sentul, Kuala Lumpur (about 30 mins drive north of BMV). There are home-made cookies,cakes, handicrafts, some refurbish home utensils, etc where one can exchange with the coupons. Funds raised are for the purchase of food and daily needs which are then distributed to the poor, needy families monthly. BTW, every Saturday afternoon I'll be at SJBT doing voluntary service for another department. 50792 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote to Htoo: -------------------------- > KenH asked you several questions that he doesn't have clear ideas about. -------------------------- I did ask several questions, but I made no mention of not having clear ideas about them. I thought the answers were obvious, and I assumed they were obvious to Htoo as well. I have already explained that my only reason for asking them was to make a point. I made that point in my latest message to Htoo. --------------------------------------- T: > So I had asked him to give out his answers first. ---------------------------------------- So you did, and I apologise for not getting back to you. I thought Andrew and I had said enough on the matter make my position clear. ------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > > It is good to ask the answers first. ....................... >Tep: He has not yet responded to my request; moreover, he is now back at you again ! So, what is your defense? --------------------------------------------------------- Htoo and I have always got along very well ever since he joined DSG. We have a good understanding of each other's writing style. I know I can speak plainly without accidentally causing offence. Similarly, Htoo occasionally says what he thinks about non-meditators, knowing that no offence whatsoever will be taken. He and I have a standing joke about his ability to agree with me and then with someone who says the complete opposite. Sarah, Htoo and I have chuckled about it three or four times in recent days: there is no ill feeling. But we don't need you stirring up trouble between us. ------------------------------ T: > With sympathy, Tep ------------------------------- Tep, you seem to think there is a civil war raging in DSG, but I can assure you it is only in your own mind. When you and James drew up that list of unworthy characters with an inventory of crimes beside each name, it was hilarious. I was delighted to see my name included. Unfortunately, our dear friend Phil spoke up in our defence and paid the price. That part was not funny. I don't know what's got into you these days, Tep, you seem to be finding fault and taking offence at every possible opportunity. Lighten up! :-) Ken H 50793 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 285 Conceit -maana (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch17- Conceit(maana)contd] We tend to have prejudices about certain people, even about our relatives, we may look down on them. We should find out whether we have conceit when we are together with other people. If we understand the disadvantage of all akusala dhammas, also of conceit, there are conditions for the arising of wholesome qualities such as loving kindness or compassion. We believe that it is mostly our anger and aversion which are unpleasant for others, but when there is conceit there is also lack of kindness and consideration for other people. When there is loving kindness there is no opportunity for conceit. ***** [Conceit(maana)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 50794 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, KenH (and all) - This reply to your post is intended to be the last one of mine concerning the non-productive fault-finding / self-defending kinds of argument. Sarah was right. > Ken H: > I did ask several questions, but I made no mention of not having > clear ideas about them. I thought the answers were obvious, and I > assumed they were obvious to Htoo as well. I have already explained that my only reason for asking them was to make a point. I made that point in my latest message to Htoo. > Tep: Thank you for explaining it. > --------------------------------------- > T: > So I had asked him to give out his answers first. > ---------------------------------------- > > So you did, and I apologise for not getting back to you. I thought > Andrew and I had said enough on the matter make my position clear. > Tep: I acccept your apologies, although they are not necessary. Your position is made clear now. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > >Htoo: > > > It is good to ask the answers first. > ....................... > >Tep: > He has not yet responded to my request; moreover, he is now back at > you again ! So, what is your defense? > --------------------------------------------------------- Tep: That was supposed to be a joke. If it irritated you, please accept my apologies too. > (snipped) > ------------------------------ > T: > With sympathy, > Tep > ------------------------------- > > Tep, you seem to think there is a civil war raging in DSG, but I can > assure you it is only in your own mind. When you and James drew up > that list of unworthy characters with an inventory of crimes beside > each name, it was hilarious. I was delighted to see my name included. > Unfortunately, our dear friend Phil spoke up in our defence and paid > the price. That part was not funny. > > I don't know what's got into you these days, Tep, you seem to be > finding fault and taking offence at every possible opportunity. > Lighten up! :-) > Tep: Your negative reading of "my mind" was wrong, Ken. I think it was because I was writing more posts lately. He who talks more, errs more ! Now that I have learned the lesson, I will write less and less. :-) Sincerely, Tep ====== 50795 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Ken: When you and James drew up that list of unworthy characters with an inventory of crimes beside each name, it was hilarious. James: Actually, I drew up the list and it said nothing about 'unworthy character' or 'crimes' ;-)). But, it was supposed to be somewhat funny. Glad you found it funny. I am always making inappropriate jokes! ;-)) Ken: I was delighted to see my name included. James: Yeah, now you are infamous! ;-)) Ken: Unfortunately, our dear friend Phil spoke up in our defence and paid the price. That part was not funny. James: I have been corresponding with Phil off-list and he didn't "pay the price" for anything. He is doing fine, writing, and I'm sure he'll be back to DSG happy as a clam. It's not helpful to be overly dramatic about the situation. Ken: Tep, you seem to be finding fault and taking offence at every possible opportunity. James: I thought that he was just expressing confusion over the fact that you had asked a series of questions which you really didn't want the answers to. That is confusing. Metta, James 50796 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:24am Subject: Satori? buddhatrue Hi All, Is there anything like 'Satori' in the Theravada tradition? Metta, James 50797 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naughty Tep and james! (was Re: Sammaa-samaadhi ... / Ariyan's Jha... upasaka_howard Hi, Matt (and Phil) - In a message dated 9/29/05 12:01:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@... writes: > Dear Phil, > > >the problem is mine - if there is so much aversion to others' posts > >and so much greed about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a > >break. > > Just in case you are reading posts. > > Dhammas of nama and rupa, arising and falling away, give rise to the concept > > that there is a world and I exist in it. Nama dhammas (cita and chetasikas) > have characteristics that never change, however, what nama experiences gives > > rise to concepts that will vary. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: The characteristics of cittas and cetasikas never change, you say. I presume you must mean something by this that is different, Matt, from what appears on the face of it, because on the face of it you seem to be speaking of conditioned dhammas that are permanent. ----------------------------------- Because of conditions and rupas experienced > > there is the concept “I am Philip, I am living in Japan, I am married to a > Japanese, I was born in such a place, these are my parents and family, I > grew up here and went to school there, this is my occupation, I like this > and I don’t like that, and etcâ€?. Had conditions been different and nama had > > arisen and experienced different rupas then the thoughts that now arise may > be “I am James, I am living in . . . . . etc. Because of conditions there > are concepts of being of a particular, nationality, race, religion, > intelligence, nature and having certain views and beliefs, but had > conditions been different then the concepts would not be the same. > > No matter what concepts nama and rupa condition, because of ignorance, there > > arises thinking with the thoughts, “this is me, this is who I am, these are > my beliefsâ€?. The concepts that arise as beliefs are conditioned, but because > > they do arise they are taken to be “my beliefsâ€?, and just like the concepts > > of “meâ€? and “mineâ€? they are clung to. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Now the fun begins! ;-) --------------------------------------------- > > That nama and rupa arise is not a choice. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Is is said that for an arahant who has passed on, including the Buddha, no longer does nama or rupa arise. That is part and parcel of attaining nibbana. Did the Bodhisatta make no choices that led to his complete and final awakening, and the ending of (conditioned) experience? (That is to say: Did not appropriate choices get made within the mindstream that we identify with the Bodhisatta?) --------------------------------------------- That the sense doors arise is not > > a choice. That chetasikas have this or that characteristic is not a choice. > That nama experiences this or that rupa is not a choice. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: However, is there not the choice to *attend* to this or that dhamma, and to avoid circumstances in which certain other dhammas would arise? Was there no instruction by the Buddha to guard the senses? --------------------------------------------- > That concepts about > ourselves arise and come into being is not a choice. That concepts about the > > world arise is not a choice. That Dhamma is heard or not heard in not a > choice. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Is there never a purposeful seeking out of situations (such as being on the DSG list) to hear Dhamma? And might not devout followers of other religions avoid such hearing intentionally? ----------------------------------------------- That there is understanding or no understanding of Dhamma is not a > > choice. That concepts arise and think “this is me and this is who I amâ€? is > not a choice. That there is thinking “this is the right way and that is the > wrong wayâ€? is not a choice. And yet there is clinging to concepts as “this > is me, this is who I am, these are my viewsâ€?. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Cannot choices be made that will lead to understanding the Dhamma? ----------------------------------------------- > > When young there was clinging to certain views and now when older there is > clinging to different views. Had nama and rupa conditioned different > concepts there would be clinging to those ideas now, because they are the > ideas that are conditioned to arise as thinking. And because there is > clinging to them there are conditions for aversion. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Cannot volitional actions be taken that will lead to less clinging? -------------------------------------------- > > When dhamma moments are not known then there is nothing else but stories and > > the akusala baggage that comes with them. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Did the Buddha not teach volitional means to attend to what arises in the moment? --------------------------------------------- There is lobha for concepts, there > > is pride because of concepts, there is aversion towards others because they > have different views or they criticize us or our beliefs, there are feelings > > of being hurt, there is regret, there is blame and there are thoughts of > being sorry. > > > When there is more understanding of the dhamma moments which create the > story, then there is more understanding that there are only dhamma moments > with their characteristics and no story. > -------------------------------------- Howard: But you would say that for more understanding of dhamma moments to arise there is "not a choice." Is there also no choice to take actions that will *lead* to greater understanding? Didn't the Buddha teach otherwise? And if not, then did he teach a doctrine that is simultaneously pure randomness (as regards action) and at the same time rank determinism? ---------------------------------- There is better understanding that > > the dhamma moments have only their characteristic and there is no self or > world or views in them, that they fall away and that they do not stay, so > they are unsatisfactory. ---------------------------------- Howard: There is better understanding of dhammas and their nature IF WHAT? If there is no volition that leads to this, then this comes down to saying that understanding will arise if it arises, and, of course, it will fail to arise if it fails to arise! And that amounts to a big "No kidding!" --------------------------------- > > When there are only concepts about Dhamma, then there are conditions for > aversion towards others who do not share our beliefs and views. When there > is insight into the characteristics of dhammas then there is mutual > understanding of what reality is. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. But to create a non-quote that is consistent with your position, "That wisdom or conditions leading to wisdom arise is not a choice!" So, what, then, is the point of all this talk? Que sera, sera - for you, for me, for anyone. There are no choices to be made. That means there is just good fortune or bad. What a great doctrine *that* is! It is not the Buddhadhamma, in my estimation. ----------------------------------------- > > Matt R > > ==================== With metta, Howard P.S. Getting back to the original statement of Phil's you are addressing in this post, Matt, the statement "the problem is mine - if there is so much aversion to others' posts and so much greed about mine being appreciated, it is best to take a break," this answer of yours seems to be there is no possibility for Phil to make a choice to decide whether it is better or not to take a break, to make a choice to study the matter, to decide what the actual facts are, and to adopt a useful plan of action with regard to the facts. I don't think that makes sense, Matt. I think that is merely avoidence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 50798 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: Satori? buddhistmedi... Hi, James - This is what I found about Satori from a brief search: "Satori is the spiritual goal of Zen Buddhism. (in Chinese: wu.) Satori roughly translates into individual Enlightenment, or a flash of sudden awareness. Satori is as well an intuitive experience. A brief experience of Enlightenment is sometimes called Kensho. Semantically, Kensho and Satori have virtually the same meaning and are often used interchangeably. In discribing the Enlightenment of the Buddha and the patriarchs, however, it is customary to use the word Satori rather than Kensho, the term Satori implying a deeper experience. The feeling of Satori is that of infinite space." http://sped2work.tripod.com/satori.html You asked: >Is there anything like 'Satori' in the Theravada tradition? If you mean a "flash of sudden awareness"= "brief experience of Enlightenment", then I think the answer is I don't know (no sutta evidence that I know of). If you mean an "experience of infinite space", then the answer is yes (there are sutta evidences). What is your thought? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, > > Is there anything like 'Satori' in the Theravada tradition? > > Metta, > James 50799 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:55am Subject: Re: Things as they truely are/ KenH's Difficult Questions philofillet Hi Ken, James and all ( and Matt and Azita) > Ken: Unfortunately, our dear friend Phil spoke up in our defence and > paid the price. That part was not funny. > > James: I have been corresponding with Phil off-list and he > didn't "pay the price" for anything. He is doing fine, writing, and > I'm sure he'll be back to DSG happy as a clam. It's not helpful to > be overly dramatic about the situation. Yes, Ken, don't worry, I'm doing fine. Thanks for your kind concern. I'll be back on the list to instigate more mini-dramas soon enough, I'm sure, but look to be getting busy with other things for the time being. Thanks Matt and Azita for your posts - back to you soon. Phil