51800 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for leaving DSG upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/25/05 4:50:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Dear Sarah and John and Nina and all ====================== Obviously, you must decide for yourself what is best for yourself. My perspective is that your reaction of leaving the list isn't the most useful one, for yourself, for all your many friends here, or for those few who might think of you as a member of a "camp". I urge you to think further on this, and to stay on (or come back to - if already unsubscribed) this extraordinary list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51801 From: "D." Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:04am Subject: The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 Hi Larry I am not sure if I am at all qualified enough to show any similarity of both positions? This is rather an experiment and hopefully will not lead into a heated debate? In case this becomes an issue in your list i beag for pardon! And I will stop to post. So sorry in advanced!!! The Acelakasyaoasutta spells out the typical fourfold negation of arising by saying that suffering is not produced from itself, nor from something other, nor from both, nor from neither. Rather, it is said to come about through dependent origination, which in itself is not characterized by any of these four extremes. Nagarjuna taught the four principles of non-arising, and these four lines where he said: 1.phenomena do not arise from themselves 2.they also do not arise form something that is different that is different from themselves 3.they also do not arise from a combination of themselves and something different 4.they do not arise from no cause whatsoever These four are the principle of Madhyamaka! This is the essence of Madhyamaka. The four main types of logical reasoning of Madhyamaka philosophy Someone who practices by applying these four principles of non-arising as taught by Nagarjuna, someone who practices this properly is a Madhyamika master. In order to enable a practitioner to develop his understanding of the four principles of non-arising, Nagarjuna presented four basic types of logical reasoning in connection with these four modes. 1. The analysis of the cause called the Vajra-lightening This logical reasoning analyses the possible cause for the coming into existence of phenomena. It analyses the cause with the question whether the effects, which arise from these causes, already exist in the cause or not. The first question one asks oneself is, ?If phenomena do truly exist, they must have come into being.? We try to find the arising, the coming into existence, because this coming into existence ? as we have seen before ? would have to be real as well, right? You might have a certain cause and you think that from this cause certain effects are brought about. Thus the arising of effects would come about from this cause. The question posed now is, ?Does this arising occur in that the arising is already existent in the cause or is it not existent in the cause?? If you think that the arising is already present, truly existent in the cause, then there is no need for yet a further arising! What you assume as being about to arise, has in this case already arisen as the arising is already present in the cause. So, this is not possible. If you thinks the arising is not present, not truly existent in the cause but that an effect would nevertheless come about, this also is impossible, because if there is no arising, how could this effect ever come into being? This is merely an overview regarding this type of logical reasoning. We will go into the details later. This particular reasoning, the first from among the four was originally taught by Nagarjuna and it was furthermore explained in detail by other masters, i.e. Shantideva in his ?Engaging in the Bodhisattva?s Way of Life?, Kamalashila in his treatise called ?Illuminating the Madhyamaka? and by Jnanagarbha in his ?Two Truths?. In these three treatises for example you find a detailed presentation of this logical reasoning. 2. The analysis of the nature of phenomena, whether they are truly singular or truly complex This type of logical reasoning investigates phenomena as to their actual nature. What is it that truly makes up a thing, a phenomenon of whatever kind? Is this, what it is truly made up of, something unitary (one whole) or is it something truly multiple? If the actual nature of phenomena were just one thing, something singular, everything would be the same. So, this is impossible! If one assumes that therefore what really makes up things, their nature, was something truly complex or multiple, this is also impossible, because you can only arrive at something truly multiple if you have something truly unique or singular to begin with, Something complex, something multiple is just a pile of single parts. If you do not find the single unit as something truly existent, you cannot postulate a truly multiple entity of sorts. This again was taught by Nagarjuna in the first place in the \u2018root verses called wisdom\u2019 and later on this logical proof was taken up in particular by Shantarakshita in his \u201cMadhyamaka-Ornament\u201d 3. The analysis of the effect that refutes the four alternatives of a possible real arising\u2019. It is an analysis where you investigate the effects that have come into being. You analyse them as to the question if they arose out of themselves, or out of something that is different from them, or from a combination of both, or from no cause whatsoever. By going through this analysis one arrives at the understanding that they do not truly arise. Again this was taught by Nagarjuna in his \u2018root verses called wisdom\u2019 and it was explained in detail in the Shastra, the treatise that we are now working with: Chandrakirti\u2019s Madhyamakaavatara. The three main logical proofs from among the four, that we have just gone through, are those trains of thought by means of which one removes the notions, the concepts that take the world, phenomena to truly exist, to comprise of real existence. Any type of notion in this regard, any type of concept that takes phenomena in one way or the other to truly exist can be rejected by these three types of logical reasoning. 4. The logical proof that rejects both extreme concepts as to reality, the King of Reasoning \u201cDependent Occurences\u201d The two extremes are taking things to be truly existing and to annihilate existence altogether, to negate phenomena. This proof helps to do away with both of these wrong notions. It is therefore called \u2018the king of reasoning\u2019, \u2018the reasoning called dependent occurrences\u2019. This logical proof is used by all Madhyamikas. This type of logical reasoning called \u2018dependent occurrences\u2019 or \u2018dependent arising\u2019 is applied with respect to any type of phenomenon. One analysis the nature of phenomena and comes to understand that whatever is there, whatever is perceived or experienced, is a matter of either something that has arisen because of the coming together of a number of causes and conditions (this is dependent arising, arising of phenomena caused by all kinds of causes and conditions), or one perceives the world because one attributes certain modes of being to them, which again is a dependent process that goes on in mind. This shows you that things do not exist in their own right, independently of something else. And that shows you that phenomena do appear, and you do not negate the appearance and perception of phenomena. They come about due to dependent occurrences, so you do not make the mistake to negate phenomena altogether, because you see that they come into existence due to various causes and conditions, but just as dependent arising, just as dependent occurrences. And when you look into the actual nature of phenomena, you see that whatever appears does in fact not have a solid, substantial, real nature that would make it an independent and therefore real entity, because it just comes about through dependent occurrences. Larry wrote: Two things are going on here. First, regarding speculative views (here translated as 'a position'): "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata, with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit, is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released." Larry: Second, when one is thus liberated, the tetralemma on reappearance after death does not apply because: "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form [feeling, perception, mental fabrication, consciousness] by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form [feeling, perception, formations, consciousness], Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." L: In other words does not apply because, in my view, reappearance, not reappearance, etc., applies only to one identified with the khandhas, rather than not applying because it is a speculative view. Being identified with the khandhas is a view ("position"), and views reappear. Is there a difference here between this and Nagarjuna? Larry 51802 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 10/25/05 7:32:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > > I don't know if this is an appropriate question for this group, > since it is a personal problem, but I don't really post to any other > groups so I have to ask it here. ;-)) > > When I am sitting in meditation, with my eyes closed, focusing on > the breath entering and exiting the nostrils, after about 20 minutes > or so my body experiences very strange sensations. First it feels > like I am leaning, then, if I don't open my eyes, my body begins to > feel like it is assuming all kinds of strange postures- even warping > in shape. When I open my eyes a crack I see that my body hasn't > moved at all. If I keep my eyes slightly open during the meditation > this doesn't occur but I am not able to have as keen concentration > on the sensation of the nostrils, because my attention will go to > seeing and feeling and seeing, etc. > > I just wanted to know if you experience this? If so, how did you > overcome it? Did it go away after time? I have been meditating, on > and off, for many years and I have always had this occur. I thought > it was time I asked someone else about it. Thanks for any input you > could offer. > > Metta, > James ========================== I have not had those particular sensations, except for an occasional sense of leaning. I do standardly sense pleasant "vibrations" in various areas of the body. I could hypothesize in *several* different ways with regard to what you're experiencing - and I do have a few theories, but I don't see much value in doing so. (The Zen folks might call these experiences "makyo", and just say to pay them no special heed.) The bottom line is that you are experiencing bodily sensations of various sorts. Whether they are products of the process of meditating or are there independently of that but are only being noticed due to heightened focus and energy of attention doesn't much matter, it seems to me. They are rupas that are part of the flow of experience. They arise, change, and cease - on and on. I would suggest not according them very important status, but just see them clearly, as you see all else that arises. If you find dislike arising with regard to these experiences, well, that is just some dukkha to see. As I view it, there is no need, and little use, in trying to *overcome* anything that arises. Of course, don't cling to what you know is harmful, like lustful imaginings or anger or fear, or to what is very pleasant and possibly wholesome either, but just "loosen up" around these experiences, seeing them clearly, but avoiding tightening up around them, and letting them go. They will come and go unless nurtured. With careful and continued mindfulness and attention, useful factors develop, as you, of course, well know. As equanimity in particular, grows, the tendency to react aversively (or with craving) will subside. I know that you know very, very well everything I have written, particularly in this paragraph, but sometimes repeating it and seeing it spelled out can be useful, I think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51803 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:16am Subject: A body is not disgusting (Was: Re: Meditation on this foul Body jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Leo, Joop, (Bhikkhu Samahita), all, > ... Dear Christine, B. Samahita Christine, I know the Nine Charnel Ground Contemplations, and I think they can be helpful. Especially making me more and more aware of my anicca and anatta, of the fact that I'm mortal. A question, Christine, you say: "the ideal of the body's transience and insubstantiality"; do you agree not onlu rupa but also nama has transience and insubstantiality? I had promised myself not having discussions with Bhikkhu Samahita because we are anoying each other, not exchange arguments, only giving sermons; but this is really to much to me. To me a body is not Alien & disgusting. Not that of myself and not that of another, for example a sexual attractive woman. It's just a body so something impermanent. A body is rupa in Abhidhamma and nowhere in Abhidhamma I can read about being akusala of rupa. Rupa is innocent, the problem - if there is a problem - is in nama. I observe (in insight meditation in daily life) the desire the seeing of a woman produces in me, I observe it again and then the desire - as all dhammas - falls away; and (the body of) the woman is already forgotten. This way of talking of the Bhikkhu about the body as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred and can never produce something good. Joop 51804 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:22am Subject: Re: Reasons for leaving DSG jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Dear Phil I have experience in leaving DSG (and coming back even after I said is was definitive. And Phil, because you have said to leave, you leave. That is: take a time-out. It's always possible to come back. I hope the moderators will see that we have a problem (I know Jon and Sarah, you want this kind of discussions off-list but this is a on- list topic) A real discussion should be organised about some topics, systematically. Metta Joop 51805 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:21am Subject: A body is not disgusting (Was: Re: Meditation on this foul Body bardosein Hi Joop, Christine, and Ven. Samahita, Joop: This way of talking of the Bhikkhu about the body as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred and can never produce something good. Hal: The purpose of these types of meditations are to develop neutral feeling towards the body. Feelings of repulsion are used to neutralize feelings of attraction. If used correctly then one eventually sees the body as neither disgusting nor appealing. On the other hand, if used unskillfully, too much of this type of practise could indeed have undesirable effects. Not only could it lead to feelings of hatred, but also perhaps much worse. In one instance, as recorded in the scriptures, a large group of monks who had undertaken loathsomeness contemplations committed suicide. It would not be wise for laypeople to do this type of practise without proper guidance or without a solid foundation in other forms of meditation (such as mindfulness of the breath). These practises are intended for a specific type of personality and must be used with wisdom and skill. For some personalities, asubha-kammatthana might be most unsuitable. Hal 51806 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ========================== > I have not had those particular sensations, except for an occasional > sense of leaning. I do standardly sense pleasant "vibrations" in various areas > of the body. I could hypothesize in *several* different ways with regard to > what you're experiencing - and I do have a few theories, but I don't see much > value in doing so. (The Zen folks might call these experiences "makyo", and just > say to pay them no special heed.) The bottom line is that you are > experiencing bodily sensations of various sorts. Whether they are products of the process > of meditating or are there independently of that but are only being noticed > due to heightened focus and energy of attention doesn't much matter, it seems > to me. They are rupas that are part of the flow of experience. They arise, > change, and cease - on and on. I would suggest not according them very important > status, but just see them clearly, as you see all else that arises. > If you find dislike arising with regard to these experiences, well, > that is just some dukkha to see. As I view it, there is no need, and little use, > in trying to *overcome* anything that arises. Of course, don't cling to what > you know is harmful, like lustful imaginings or anger or fear, or to what is > very pleasant and possibly wholesome either, but just "loosen up" around these > experiences, seeing them clearly, but avoiding tightening up around them, and > letting them go. They will come and go unless nurtured. With careful and > continued mindfulness and attention, useful factors develop, as you, of course, > well know. As equanimity in particular, grows, the tendency to react aversively > (or with craving) will subside. I know that you know very, very well everything > I have written, particularly in this paragraph, but sometimes repeating it > and seeing it spelled out can be useful, I think. Thanks for the advice. I agree with everything you say here and I will just have to continue to sit with these strange experiences. I found something on the Internet which describes perfectly what I experience: "When we begin to spend more time in meditaion, awareness deepens; perceptions of the physical body may diminish while perceptions of the subtle body may appear, leading to a seeming alteration of normal spatial relations. A person may, for example, lose consciousness of the body from the neck down, and feel as if the head is expanding, or as though the body is levitating, or that their body is now facing in a different direction. Sometimes people report that they feel as though there is a great distance between their head and their hands or knees, as though galaxies intervene. The body can feel as light as cotton. Pressure or tingling can occur in various parts of the body due to the movement of pranic energy." I think that what I am experiencing is just a normal stage of meditation, related to kundalini energy, and I must just accept it as such. But it is good to know. As this article continues to say: "Having reviewed meditation experiences as they are presented from the perspectives of several paths, we should try to be clear about why these teachings are given. The first reason is so that students will not be frightened by these experiences, or worry that they are doing something incorrectly. They are expressions of a natural process that unfolds inside of us as we come into contact with higher consciousness." http://www.cit-sakti.com/kundalini/experiences-of-meditation.htm Metta, James 51807 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question nidive Hi Howard & James, I don't practice breathing meditation for bodily contemplation. I find it to be too subtle. Instead, I practice bodily postures and bodily movements. With this practice, I find that the "knowledge that this body is not me or mine" to come more easily and stronger. I find that I could really attain what the Buddha described as "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance." --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. [3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do you think breathing meditation is the most appropriate for your practice? Do you think you could do better with the other forms of bodily contemplations? Regards, Swee Boon 51808 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:18am Subject: A body is not disgusting (Was: Re: Meditation on this foul Body jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Joop, Christine, and Ven. Samahita, > > Joop: This way of talking of the Bhikkhu about the body > as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred and can never produce something > good. > > Hal: The purpose of these types of meditations are to develop neutral > feeling towards the body. Feelings of repulsion are used to > neutralize feelings of attraction. If used correctly then one > eventually sees the body as neither disgusting nor appealing. ... Hallo Hal That is udeful - and facifying - information. Thanks Metta Joop 51809 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:22am Subject: A body is not disgusting (Was: Re: Meditation on this foul Body jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Joop, Christine, and Ven. Samahita, > > Joop: This way of talking of the Bhikkhu about the body > as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred and can never produce something > good. > > Hal: The purpose of these types of meditations are to develop neutral > feeling towards the body. Feelings of repulsion are used to > neutralize feelings of attraction. If used correctly then one > eventually sees the body as neither disgusting nor appealing. Two typos is to much So again: Hallo Hal That is useful - and pacifying - information. Thanks Metta Joop 51810 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:45am Subject: Re: Meditation Question buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, Swee: I don't practice breathing meditation for bodily contemplation. I find it to be too subtle. James: I have heard others say this but I don't find that to be the case with me. I can feel the breath quite easily at the nostrils. If the outside air is a little cooler, like now that it is becoming winter, it is even easier to feel the sensation. Maybe it was a little difficult at the beginning, but if you count the breaths from one to ten and then start over again, you can train the mind to really feel the breaths. Swee: Instead, I practice bodily postures and bodily movements. With this practice, I find that the "knowledge that this body is not me or mine" to come more easily and stronger. James: I'm not sure what bodily postures and movements you mean, but I also practice walking meditation. I usually practice walking meditation before the sitting as it helps to calm my mind down (turn my thoughts away from household duties). But, I don't know if jhana can be achieved with walking meditation or movement, I think the body must be still. Swee: Why do you think breathing meditation is the most appropriate for your practice? James: That is what the Buddha taught and what the Buddha practiced. Whatever is good enough for the Buddha is good enough for me! ;-)) Here are links to some of the various suttas he taught on mindfulness of the breath: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-118-tb0.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10- 060.html#breath http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/tb0/iti3.html #85 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-096.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-097.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-098.html Swee: Do you think you could do better with the other forms of bodily contemplations? James: Personally, I don't think so. The breath is the best object of meditation. It fulfills all four foundations of mindfulness. Metta, James 51811 From: "Hal" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:16am Subject: Re: Meditation Question bardosein Hi Swee, Howard & James, Swee's post about practicing bodily postures and movements reminded me of one of my favorite stories about the late Ven. Sunlun Sayadaw. Earlier in his life he had been an simple farmer who was then known as U Kyaw Din. One day, upon learning about Vipassana meditation from a local clerk, he developed a deep desire to undertake the practice. However, "he was afraid to mention his wish because of his lack of knowledge of scriptural texts. The next day he asked the clerk whether a man ignorant of the texts could undertake the practice. The clerk replied that the practice of insight meditation did not require doctrinal knowledge but only deep interest and assiduity. He told U Kyaw Din to practice in-breathing and out-breathing. So from that day, whenever he could find the time, U Kyaw Din would direct breath in and breath out. One day he met a friend who told him that directing breathing in and out alone was not sufficient; he had also to be aware of the touch of the breath at the nostril tip. U Kyaw Din practiced awareness of the touch of breath. Then as his practice became more intense, he tried to be aware not only of the touch of breath, but also of the touch of his hand on the handle of his knife as he chopped corn cobs, the touch of the rope on his hand as he drew water, the touch of his feet on the ground as he walked. He tried to be aware of touch in everything he did. As he tended his cattle he would sit under a tree and practice mindfulness of breathing. During the practice he began to see colored lights and geometrical patterns. He did not know what they were but felt that they were the fruit of practice. This greatly encouraged him and he began to practice more assiduously. With more intensive practice, sensations were sometimes intensely unpleasant. But they did not deter him. He believed that they were the fruit of the practice and he believed that if he desired to win greater fruit he would have to overcome and get beyond them. Therefore he generated more energy and overcame the unpleasant sensations and passed beyond to the higher stages of practice. Endeavoring in this zealous manner, U Kyaw Din attained the stage of stream entry. The next month he won the second stage of liberation. In the third month he won the third stage. He asked permission from his wife to let him become a monk; after much resistance, the wife agreed. But even then she asked him to sow a final crop of peas before he left. U Kyaw Din set out for the fields. But even as he was broadcasting the seeds he felt the great urge to renounce the world. Setting his cattle free, he put the yolk up against a tree, went to the village monastery, and begged the monk there to accept him as a novice in the order. He next betook himself to the caves nearby and practiced diligently, until in October, 1920, he attained the final stage of freedom, arahatship. His achievement became known among the monks and many came to test him. Though he was a barely literate man, his answers satisfied even the most learned monks. Very often they disagreed with his replies but when his answers were checked against the texts they found many passages in the scriptures to support his statements. Many learned monks from various parts of the world went to practice mindfulness under him....." (Living Buddhist Masters, by Jack Kornfield, Unity Press, 1977, pp.82-85) Hal 51812 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and James) - In a message dated 10/25/05 12:18:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard &James, > > I don't practice breathing meditation for bodily contemplation. I find > it to be too subtle. > > Instead, I practice bodily postures and bodily movements. With this > practice, I find that the "knowledge that this body is not me or mine" > to come more easily and stronger. > > I find that I could really attain what the Buddha described as "Or his > mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of > knowledge &remembrance." > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-22-tb0.html > > [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. > When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he > discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is > lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns > it. > > [3] "Furthermore, when going forward &returning, he makes himself > fully alert; when looking toward &looking away... when bending & > extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & > his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, &savoring... when > urinating &defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling > asleep, waking up, talking, &remaining silent, he makes himself fully > alert. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Why do you think breathing meditation is the most appropriate for your > practice? Do you think you could do better with the other forms of > bodily contemplations? > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ====================== I also attend to bodily sensation and position when walking, standing, lying, bending etc. I use focused meditation on the breath while seated largely as samatha bhavana, and that works well for me. At the start of a session I combine a manta with the breath "to get started", when concentration is still quite light, and then later on I just stick with the breath as "anchor" along with whatever else arises, of course. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51813 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question matheesha333 Hi Howard, James, and others, I agree with what Howard has said. I would say that it is a sign of deepening one-pointedness that one experiences these strange phenomena. Lots of people do experience distorting phenomena. Please note there is no mention of kundalani etc in the buddhist texts but since these things dont come with labels, asking the question What, is not very prodctive. IMO better to either disregard it alltogether if you are developing concentration and focus on your breath or try to see its arising and passing away if you are developing insight. If you are developing concentration there are a few things which might work to get rid of it (if you want to do that) -ignoring it and keep going deeper and deeper into one pointedness -seeing if the focus of concentration is drifting and going from place to place (if so correcting it) -making a wish 'may i not experience distorting sensations' -this sometimes works in the line of being able to wake up by making a determination, at a particular time -you program the mind - importantly dont be distracted by it or worry about it -just keep doing what you were doing and it will fade away-its all part of normal phenomena of deepening concentration including sights, sounds, sensations and smells you might have. I have a question for Howard! You mentioned in one of your posts that at later stages practice happens on its own. Could you explain this to me? many thanks Matheesha 51814 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 10/25/05 1:42:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > I have a question for Howard! You mentioned in one of your posts > that at later stages practice happens on its own. Could you explain > this to me? > ===================== Could you please quote back to me what I said, so I will know exactly what you are referring to? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51815 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:35am Subject: Faith follower, Dhamma-follower matheesha333 Some important and practical suttas for those who are serious about the path. My apologies for those of you who are already familiar with these. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#okkanta metta Matheesha 51816 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question matheesha333 Hi Howard, Needle in a haystack. :( Well let me word it differently then. Do you feel that somehow practice happens on its own in later stages of development, perhaps as in the mind slipping into satipattana on its own? metta Matheesha > > I have a question for Howard! You mentioned in one of your posts > > that at later stages practice happens on its own. Could you explain > > this to me? > > > ===================== > Could you please quote back to me what I said, so I will know exactly > what you are referring to? > 51817 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment (was, incredible india) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > >> Dear Jon, > > > > I may need update of new members and all old members as I have been > > busy and cannot access to internet. Is it Joop or Loop? If Loop who > > is he or she? > > > > With respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > Dear Htoo Naing > > It's Joop (male, from the netherlanmds) and I'm not totally new > I should like it if you can give information about this topic (and > forget my opinions about it) > > Metta > > Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Joop, I remember you and you are from Netherland. I saw Jon typed 'Loop'. Now I am clear. But I have not touched the topic. If you want me, please just reply this message with 'contrated form of the message you want to discuss. Because I do not have enough time and I will be checking only related letters. With respect, Htoo Naing 51818 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: Meditation Question htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Howard and All, > > I don't know if this is an appropriate question for this group, > since it is a personal problem, but I don't really post to any other > groups so I have to ask it here. ;-)) > > When I am sitting in meditation, with my eyes closed, focusing on > the breath entering and exiting the nostrils, after about 20 minutes > or so my body experiences very strange sensations. First it feels > like I am leaning, then, if I don't open my eyes, my body begins to > feel like it is assuming all kinds of strange postures- even warping > in shape. When I open my eyes a crack I see that my body hasn't > moved at all. If I keep my eyes slightly open during the meditation > this doesn't occur but I am not able to have as keen concentration > on the sensation of the nostrils, because my attention will go to > seeing and feeling and seeing, etc. > > I just wanted to know if you experience this? If so, how did you > overcome it? Did it go away after time? I have been meditating, on > and off, for many years and I have always had this occur. I thought > it was time I asked someone else about it. Thanks for any input you > could offer. > > Metta, > James ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear James, I will be answering in two mode. One is 'meditation answer' and the second is 'scientific answer'. 1) Meditation answer This is normal for a meditator. When this is heard this indicates that one who says this touches a point in meditation-journey. It may be said as 'meditation milestone'. It is true that such feeling arise while meditating. You do not need to open your eyes. Or you do not need to half-open your eyes. If such things happen just continue to meditate on the object of meditation. It will at a time be overcome. If I am not optimistic I would say it will soon be overcome. Meditators do not need to attend such matter apart from attending on it as meditation. I mean just forget it and continue to meditate. Or just meditate on 'that state'. 2) Scientific answer When meditation is done there are a lot of reactions in the brain. There are many chemical messagers, neuro-transmittors and many reactions during meditation. This is more true when more and more conmcentrated. As concentration becomes solid there produce 'endorphin' and 'enkephalin' in the limbic system and other related areas of the brain. Endorphin and enkephalin are neuro-transmittors and they also serve as hormone. They may be said as paracrine secretions from cells in the brain. There are various receptors for these neuro-transmittors or hormone. Each has its specific function and some actions are very much like 'the effect of morphine' like 'mu receptor' 'lambda receptor' and so on. When these happen there arise different reaction in the brain forming strange pictures in the mind like you described. And meditation may attract people who have tasted it. But it is not like other attraction in that it is not addition but propulsion to do right things. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am not following other replies. But if you and others want me to read them please let me know which messages I have to read. 51819 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 10/25/05 2:43:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Needle in a haystack. :( > > Well let me word it differently then. Do you feel that somehow > practice happens on its own in later stages of development, perhaps > as in the mind slipping into satipattana on its own? > > metta > > Matheesha > > ======================== There are different ways to answer this. First in long-run terms: I find meditation far easier these days than I used to. I rarely if ever get "edgy" now - wanting to terminate the session, I get calm and concentrated far more quickly than before (usually), and, at the same time, meditation isn't as "special" as it used to be. In shorter-run terms: Typically during any sitting, once I'm "into it", there is a great ease to the process, with almost no "doing" required. At first there is the need to apply attention, and to keep applying it, but after a while that volitional effort gets to be less and less, and the attention seems to take care of itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51820 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation Question matheesha333 Hi Howard, Yes, I know what you mean. Sometime ago someone posted a link to a pdf book by one Dharma Dan! He claimed (among other things) that his mind would go into satipatthana/void quite on its own and that it would happen in cycles or something to that effect in later stages of the path. But nevermind.. minor issue. I'm more interested in confronting/managing my desires these days, which is so important for the practice of sila. I admire your detachment from the vortices in this group,sucking us all more and more into samsara. many thanks, Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Matheesha - > > In a message dated 10/25/05 2:43:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > dhammachat@h... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Needle in a haystack. :( > > > > Well let me word it differently then. Do you feel that somehow > > practice happens on its own in later stages of development, perhaps > > as in the mind slipping into satipattana on its own? > > > > metta > > > > Matheesha > > > > > ======================== > There are different ways to answer this. > First in long-run terms: I find meditation far easier these days than > I used to. I rarely if ever get "edgy" now - wanting to terminate the > session, I get calm and concentrated far more quickly than before (usually), and, at > the same time, meditation isn't as "special" as it used to be. > In shorter-run terms: Typically during any sitting, once I'm "into > it", there is a great ease to the process, with almost no "doing" required. At > first there is the need to apply attention, and to keep applying it, but after a > while that volitional effort gets to be less and less, and the attention > seems to take care of itself. > > With metta, > Howard > View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 51791 - 51820 of 51820 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Message # Search: Post Message What's This? YAHOO! 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Mail Make Yahoo! your home page Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home - Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Files Photos Links Calendar Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... You can receive multiple messages in one email? Simply adjust your email delivery settings. Yahoo! 360° Keep connected to your friends and family through blogs, photos and more. Create your own 360° page now. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Post Message View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 51821 - 51850 of 51881 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Sort by Date 51821 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:15pm Subject: A body is not disgusting (Was: Re: Meditation on this foul Body christine_fo... Hello Joop, Hal and all, Thanks, Hal - I agree with your post about the purpose of these contemplations and that they should be done with guidance. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Joop, Christine, and Ven. Samahita, > > Joop: This way of talking of the Bhikkhu about the body > as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred and can never produce something > good. > > Hal: The purpose of these types of meditations are to develop neutral > feeling towards the body. Feelings of repulsion are used to > neutralize feelings of attraction. If used correctly then one > eventually sees the body as neither disgusting nor appealing. On the > other hand, if used unskillfully, too much of this type of practise > could indeed have undesirable effects. Not only could it lead to > feelings of hatred, but also perhaps much worse. In one instance, as > recorded in the scriptures, a large group of monks who had undertaken > loathsomeness contemplations committed suicide. It would not be wise > for laypeople to do this type of practise without proper guidance or > without a solid foundation in other forms of meditation (such as > mindfulness of the breath). These practises are intended for a > specific type of personality and must be used with wisdom and skill. > For some personalities, asubha-kammatthana might be most unsuitable. > > Hal > 51822 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Firewood-gathering matheesha333 SN VII.18 Katthaharaka Sutta Firewood-gathering Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: S i 180 CDB i 275 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Copyright © 2005 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 2005 For free distribution only. You may re-format, reprint, translate, and redistribute this work in any medium, provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use and that you include this notice. Otherwise, all rights reserved. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Translator's note: The poetic exchange in this discourse emphasizes the difference between appearances and actual vision. The brahman addressing the Buddha speaks in terms of conjecture and uses three compounds containing the word "rupa," or "appearance" — gambhira- rupa, sucaru-rupa, and acchera-rupa (deep-looking, very-lovely- looking, and amazing-looking). The Buddha, however, emphasizes not his appearance but what he sees. What's important about him is not how he looks to others, but how he looks at things. Another contrast is that, whereas the brahman conjectures about the goal the Buddha is striving for in the wilderness — attaining the heavens of the Brahmas — the Buddha points out that he has already arrived at a goal that is hidden even to Brahmas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Kosalans in a certain forest grove. Then a large number of firewood-gathering youths — students of a certain brahman of the Bharadvaja clan — went to the forest grove. On arrival, they saw the Blessed One sitting in the grove — his legs folded crosswise, his body set straight, mindfulness established to the fore. On seeing him, they went to the brahman of the Bharadvaja clan and, on arrival, said to him, "Sir, you should know that Gotama the contemplative is in that grove over there, sitting with his legs folded crosswise, his body set straight, mindfulness established to the fore." So the brahman of the Bharadvaja clan, together with the youths, went to the forest grove. On arrival, he saw the Blessed One sitting in the grove — his legs folded crosswise, his body set straight, mindfulness established to the fore. On seeing him, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, addressed him in verse: In the deep-looking forest, teeming with terrors, having plunged into the wilderness — desolate, empty — unflinchingly, steadfastly, compellingly, you practice jhana, monk: How very lovely you look! Where no song is sung, where no music is played, alone in the wilderness: the forest-dwelling sage. This looks amazing to me — that you live alone in the forest with rapturous mind. I suppose it's in longing for the three heavens unexcelled, in the company of the ruling lord of the worlds, that, staying here in the wilderness, desolate, you practice austerities for attaining Brahma. [The Buddha:] Whatever the longings or delights attached — always — to various levels of being, or yearnings born from the root of unknowing: I've destroyed them all, down to the root. I — without longing, unattached, uninvolved, with purified vision with regard to all things, having reached self-awakening, sublime, unexcelled — practice jhana hidden from Brahma, matured.1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Note 1. In the PTS edition of the Pali Canon, this last line reads, jhaayaam'aham braahma.na raho vissaarado — "I practice jhana, brahman, in seclusion, matured." This, however, does not fit in with the rhythm of the verse, and so for that reason I have followed the Thai edition here — jhaayaam'aham brahma-raho visaarado — which does fit in with the rhythm. This reading also has the advantage of providing a neat contrast to the reference to Brahma in the brahman's last line The compound brahma-raho, "Brahma-private," can be read in either of two ways: either private like a Brahma or private to — i.e., hidden from — Brahma. The first reading would simply convey the fact that the practice of jhana puts one in a mental state equivalent to a Brahma. The second reading points to the fact that the Buddha, in having gained Awakening, meditates in a way that even Brahmas cannot perceive or understand. I have chosen this latter reading because it parallels the message in AN XI.10. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Thursday 2005-10-13 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-07-018- tb0.html 51823 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: Firewood-gathering christine_fo... Hello Mateesha, all, Was there anything in particular you wished to discuss about this sutta? http://tinyurl.com/7rxo7 I have to say that I much prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's elegant translation - such a pity his aren't available on-line. Excerpt: [The Blessed One:] "Whatever be the many desires and delights That are always attached to the manifold elements, The longings sprung from the root of unknowing: All I have demolished along with their root. "I am desireless, unattached, disengaged; My vision of all things has been purified. Having attained the auspicious - supreme enlightenment - Self-confident, Brahmin, I meditate alone." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > SN VII.18 > Katthaharaka Sutta > Firewood-gathering > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS page: S i 180 > CDB i 275 51824 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Re: Reasons for leaving DSG corvus121 Hello everyone I want to say that I very much regret the loss of Phil as a DSG member. I have some sympathy for many of his observations about the tone and content of some discussions on the list. I hope you'll be back soon, Phil. Good luck to you and Naomi. Best wishes Andrew T 51825 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions lbidd2 Hi Djimpa, Thanks for your very detailed answer. I think the difference between Madhyamaka and Theravada lies in what is meant by "phenomenon". In abhidhamma there are two kinds of phenomena: concept and ultimate reality. A concept is anything such as a book, a cow, a tree, etc. Abhidhamma would very much agree that concepts are nonarising because of being empty of a particularizing characteristic. On the other hand, an ultimate reality, with the exception of nibbana, does arise. Ultimate reality is comprised of the 5 khandhas (form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness) and nibbana. I notice in the Mulamadhyamakakarika that Nagarjuna talks about the khandhas as including their conditions. In other words, form is not only form but also the conditions that form arises in dependence upon. I think abhidhamma would agree that this combination of factors is nonarising because it is a concept insofar as being a combination of factors. But abhidhamma pretty much insists on the impermanence of conditionally arising khandhas as the foundation of all insight. From abhidhamma's point of view, Nagarjuna doesn't really analyze form, etc., as it is understood by them, one consciousness at a time. On the other hand, abhidhamma doesn't really analyze concepts at all and concepts is what conventional reality is all about. In that respect I think we could learn a great deal from middle-way analysis. Larry 51826 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for leaving DSG lbidd2 Hi Phil, Becoming upset is part of the path. If you aren't upset you aren't paying attention. The next time you become upset just ask yourself, "is my body upset?" Larry 51827 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:01pm Subject: Suitable for most yet not popular ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Hal: Meditation on the disgusting aspects of the Body is suitable for the many beings dominated by desire... This is the most common 'personality character' today, as also shown by the powerful & prevalent multi-billion dollar Pornographic-Industry! The purpose is to wear down the loong (over many universal cycles) reinforced clinging to a mere form, resulting in rebirth, decay, & repeated death... This is not an easy task, but it is possible for those few wise ones, who actually practice it enthusiastically over a period... There is no dangers or side-effects involved here. The suicidal bhikkhus did not kill themselves, but accepted out of karmic reasons to be killed by another! (They had been a group of cruel hunters). See the study: Laurence C.R. Mills: The case of the murdered monks. Journal of Pali Text Society XVI: pp 71-75. Unfortunately is meditation on the disgusting aspects of the Body not very poplar these days although it is the main tool for most beings to gain freedom. On the way lightness of the body & fearlessness of even death is advantageous side-effects to enjoy... _Reg: This false & futile noise:_ >Seeing the body as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred >and can never produce something good. The Buddha said: Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground one day, two days, three days dead bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... MN 119 Things that are empty make a noise, the full is always quiet. The fool is like a half-filled pot, the wise man is like a deep still pool. Sutta Nipata 721 Who clings neither to body nor mind is detached. Dhammapada 221 Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 51828 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:23pm Subject: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Dear Phil,(Betty, James, Howard & all), --- Phil wrote: > Dear Sarah and John and Nina and all > > > I suppose I should be doing this off-list, but forgive me for > explaining my reasons on-list. ..... Well, it has given others a chance to respond too:). I feel some sympathy like Andrew, but I think James, Howard (and Larry too) made some good points. As James said ‘this is a dhamma study group, not a A.Sujin group...’ and so on. Yes, there is a reference to A.Sujin in the homepage description as an indication of our appreciation for her assistance to us. We considered removing this many years ago, but it was Howard who was giving us assistance with the wording at the time,who suggested it stay as it is. It’s not a black and white issue and certainly not intended to be any kind of 'dojo yaburi' here as I’ve said many times. We like to hear from people with different understandings so that we have a chance to discuss and address such views. We don’t expect or ask anyone to agree with anything any of us say here or anything any teacher says either. We’re all investigating and discussing the Buddha’s teachings and I believe we all learn from being rigorously questioned as we are here. Certainly Nina always says how much she learns from our many friends here. It is one thing to quote or paraphrase K.Sujin’s comments in books and letters and posts. It’s another thing to patiently explore the divergent interpretations of the texts and to respond in our own words, based on our own deep reflections. In the end, the teachings are not in any book or in anyone’s words, however beautifully said or written, but only in our own direct testing of these dhammas at the present moment. Yes, we all feel irritations and much worse from time to time. The still waters we crave are often disturbed. If they are not disturbed by a comment on list, then they’ll be disturbed by the children upstairs or drilling (like now for me!), by the difficult conditions on a trip (there were a few temper outbursts even in our dhamma group of friends in India, in spite of mostly being K.Sujin ‘followers:-) or any other time lobha doesn’t get its desired object. I assure you that just because other friends share some more-or-less similar understanding of the teachings doesn't mean a lack of irritations as others will tell you:). Dhammas are uncontrollable. No one can have visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily experiences just as they wish. We forget about kamma and vipaka and the combination of other conditions all the time. We think that we can plan and arrange and avoid difficulties. But it’s impossible. As James said too, there have always been and will always be disagreements. The Buddha was abused and listened to strong disagreements, even by close associates who caused schisms. And as James further said, he didn’t tell us to avoid disagreements or difficult people. He taught us to really understand the meaning of the ‘good friend’. The meaning, as I understand it, is to develop metta and the other brahma viharas not just when we’re associating with people of our liking or hearing words that are pleasant to us, but whomever we find ourselves amongst right now. In other words, we have to learn to be the good friend to others rather than thinking of ourselves as we’re so used to doing. For my part, I’d be very glad to hear the points you referred to which you disagree with. You can ask (well, you have asked) others not to cheer you on from the sidelines and they may respect this, but in an open discussion group, we’re bound to all share our comments and join in different threads. I’m sure that many of our ‘chip ins’ or disagreements with the views of other respected teachers are just as annoying to their ‘followers’. As soon as I've unpacked, got over my cough and so on, I'll be back to chipping in on other dojo yaburi threads if I can refer to them in that way. I'd also be glad to hear any disagreements you (or others) have with this letter. Like you, I also don’t think the references to ‘hardcore DSG members’ are helpful and objected when a close friend once used this expression to refer to those who listen to K.Sujin’s interpretations. For my part friends like Howard or Larry who have consistently and loyally posted and supported DSG from early days are as ‘hard-core’ DSG’ as anyone. But really, what does it matter what anyone calls us or what camp anyone thinks any of us are in? I really don’t mind at all, just as I couldn’t care less whether anyone who saw me in India thought of me as a tourist, a pilgrim or a back-packer:). As Howard suggested, leaving because we don’t like such labels or some other people’s responses doesn’t seem like the most useful reaction for ourselves or others. During our trip, when friends were complaining about arrangements, they were reminded time and again about khanti (patience) parami and how there could be no development of satipatthana without this and the other paramis being developed. They are not just developed when everything is to our liking, but when the going gets tough too or especially then. One friend was distressed by the strong anger experienced and was reminded that any strong reactions are just more conditioned dhammas to be known as anatta. However ‘strong’ such kilesa, the understanding has to see such dhammas with detachment. They’re not yours or mine or anyone else’s. This is why it has to be the path of detachment and why all dhammas have to be clearly known as namas and rupas in the first place. Otherwise, all the kusala and akusala continues to be taken for ‘mine’ and can never lead out of samsara. Betty raised your various questions, including the one about kusala and akusala which I’ve just touched on briefly (but without your qu in front of me) and promised to respond on list when she has time, as well as giving her personal dhamma diary extracts. Perhaps you can encourage her too in your friendly, kind way. That would be a help to her and the list. And yes, don’t we all make inappropriate comments at times? Some people objected to your ‘spanking’ discussions with James and as Tep and James have said and apologized for, they do sometimes make ‘over the top’ comments (James) or bring in inappropriate comments from other lists (Tep) as Howard kindly pointed out to him & SB. I’m sure I’ve also made comments that may have caused offence for which I apologise too as I do for any shortcomings in the way we run the list as pointed out. And on a lighter note, I thought of you Phil on our flight back to Hong Kong. I love Japanese films and was watching a cute one about ‘train boy’ who helped a lady ('Miss Hermes') out and it led to many apology discussions with her, ‘sorry, I didn’t help you better’, ‘sorry I caused you inconvenience so you had to intervene in the first place’ etc. All of this was egged on by his internet discussion group friends, all trying to help him build a relationship with her with different kinds of advice.....so cute, but then I fell asleep, so can’t tell you the ending:). We also expressed our apologies for any faults with regard to any disrespect for the Triple Gem during the trip.....it was very meaningful and personal for me. Also, being able to apologise to K.Sujin and Jonothan for any inconvenience I had caused them on the trip seemed like making just a very small dent in the crusty layer of conceit which so often makes such an apology so difficult. Of course, it again depends on our intentions at anytime. Train boy's primary intention was to spend more time with 'Miss Hermes', named after the Hermes gift she sent him after he came to her rescue. I know we all have different circumstances as you suggest too. Jon was fortunate to live in Thailand for years having regular access to hearing K.Sujin in Thai and English and even lived in her Thai school. For me, living alone in England in the early days, DSG is just what I would have loved – I’ve always found discussion and being ‘challenged’ helpful. In fact a very small discussion group used to meet at my place for a few years and I never expected anyone to ever agree with me. One of the most regular participants, who would question every word I said, became a Christian priest and I then lost all contact. Another friend who’d regularly visit me was Alan W who went on to make trips with K.Sujin, help publish Nina's books and set up Zolag. I believe it’s best to just develop more understanding and share what we find helpful without any expectations or minding what kind of reactions others make. I also think we're very fortunate to read so many of Nina's letters here. But also, we're fortunate to hear from all our other friends (including yourself) who make up DSG. Everyone has their own style and way and I mean this very sincerely. Again, I echo Howard's comments. I hope you continue to share your reflections and care for everyone here. I’m sure I speak for all ‘camps’ when I say that we all appreciate your posts of daily life reflections. You have so much to contribute, Phil. Meanwhile, we’ll all try to do just a little better to keep you concerns in mind, perhaps. What a ramble, as you’d say. Put it down to Indian jet-lag and the fact that I'd intended to rest up before joining in the fray. Hope the writing project is still on target. Let us know how it goes. And I know I can speak for Nina too when I say, please keep posting any questions on list too for everyone to share here. Metta, Sarah p.s quote from ‘Cetasikas’ in a recent extract: “All those who are not arahats, even the ariyans who have not attained arahatship, have to develop satipatthana until all akusala dhammas have been eradicated’”. I also liked the quote Hal gave (#51072) on vitikamma, pariyutthana and anusaya. It may seem that the ‘transgressions’ in body and speech or even the bad thoughts are somehow under some sort of ‘control’ in a conventional sense, but really the tendencies are still there ready to manifest themselves in this life or next, unless really understood as conditioned dhammas when they are apparent. ================================= 51829 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Relinguishing both Clusters and Elements ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Detaching release from all Internal and all External: The Blessed Buddha said: Bhikkhus, desire and lust for form, for feeling, for perception, for mental constructions and for consciousness is a corruption of the mind! Desire and lust for the earth element: All Solidity, for the water element: All Fluidity, for the fire element: All Heat, for the air element: All Motion, for the space element: All that is three Dimensional and for the consciousness element: All Noticing, is a corruption of the mind! When a bhikkhu has overcome & left all behind these mental corruptions, his mind seeks inward withdrawal... A mind prepared & enhanced by such renunciation becomes wieldy, fit, focused and open for those mental states, that are to be realized by direct knowledge.... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN 27:9-10 III 234 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 51830 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 0:14am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 291 Aversion-dosa (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] Dosa, aversion, is another akusala cetasika. When the citta dislikes the object it experiences there is dosa, aversion. When there is dosa, the feeling which accompanies the citta is always unpleasant feeling. We do not like to feel unhappy and we want to suppress our unpleasant feeling. However, dosa-múla-citta arises when there are conditions for its arising. We may try to suppress unpleasant feeling because we cling to pleasant feeling; we are ignorant of the real cause of unpleasant feeling and of the disadvantages of akusala. We should study the factors which condition dosa-múla-citta. The scriptures and the commentaries show us many aspects of dosa and if we study these aspects we will have more understanding of the disadvantages and the danger of dosa. Right understanding sees the danger of akusala and conditions kusala. It is more beneficial to have right understanding of dosa than just trying to suppress it without any understanding of it. There always seem to be numerous causes for dosa and they invariably seem to be outside ourselves: other people’s actions or unhappy events which occur. However, the real cause is within ourselves. Dosa has been accumulated and it can always find an object. We are attached to pleasant objects and when we do not experience pleasant objects there is bound to be dosa. When dosa arises it shows that the attachment which conditions it must be very strong. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 51831 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: Suitable for most yet not popular ... jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > > Dear friend Hal: > .. > _Reg: This false & futile noise:_ > >Seeing the body as 'disgusting' is rooted in hatred > >and can never produce something good. Dear Bhikkhu Samahita I doubt if we can become friends, but we can try. I did it (in a indirect way) in my reaction to Hal. So my question: can you be nice to somebody who does not agree with all your opinions? With karuna Joop 51832 From: "Hal" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: Suitable for most yet not popular ... bardosein Greetings Ven. Samahita, Thank you for your comments. I would be most interested in reading the Sutta again as well as the article you mentioned. However, I read the Sutta so long ago, that I have forgotten the name of the one that mentions the deaths of these monks, following upon their asubha practices. Respectfully, Hal 51833 From: "D." Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 Hi Larry Thank you for your prompt reply. Let me say one thing before, I am no native English speaker and that's why i will always need more time and effort to sort out the content in terms of any given technical linguistic reasons and, especially with these sophistic epistemological (philosophical) investigations. On the other hand i am very happy to find some buddy so to speak (on the other side) open mind ready to discuss various points of the Buddha-Dharma with a Non-Therevarda school follower, like me f. e.. I hope this exchange can put up with some good old traditional or historical standards of open mind and tolerance, by exchanging with other traditions we all follow the historical Buddha and that's makes us not only equal, but to Dharma brothers and sisters. At this point i like to make a personal remark, what i found out after studying a couple of years in India and in Europe, the more i learn the more i feel the fire got not know enough. A kind of spiral of inner activity dynamics of inner lack knowledge to find the right questions which lead to the right goal. Ok coming back to your post: You wrote: Madhyamaka and Theravada lies in what is meant by "phenomenon". In Abhidhamma there are two kinds of phenomena: concept and ultimate reality. A concept is anything such as a book, a cow, a tree, etc. Djimpa: Which kind of reference Abhidharma do you use? I use the Abhidharmakosabhayam, by Vasubandu, translated by Louis La Valle Pousen & Leom M. Pruden. Let me ask you one question, is a book not included into the system of the five khandas? How comes? It is form and compounded of material subparticles called matter. You wrote: On the other hand, an ultimate reality, with the exception of nibbana, does arise. Ultimate reality is comprised of the 5 khandhas (form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness) Djimpa: Does in your school of thought Khanda apply to the body, mind system of each individual? Does it mean that the five khandas are a/multiple ultimate(s)? But how can be something ultimate which is impermanent because of being compounded? Does form always stay as form, and never change its outlook? Does feeling always stay as one state without change? Does perception remain always the same, (also in your dream). Does your consciousness has no space for variation and change? How would you be able to bring about a change on the path towards nibbana if no space for variation can take place? On the other hand the ultimate devinition nibbana lacks the five khandas (the arhat without reminder) which is the ultimate goal in the Therevada tradition. Isn't it? How can this system make sense? Because taking you literally, nibbana and the khandas are one in nature? Or, do you refere to multiple ultimate natures? Sorry to bring this up straight forward, it is just for the sake of discussion. You wrote: Mulamadhyamakakarika that Nagarjuna talks about the khandhas as including their conditions. In other words, form is not only form butalso the conditions that form arises in dependence upon Djimpa: Khanda also called Skt. Skandha is just a heap of something, which doesn't exist and arise out of itself according to the Madyamaka and the Mind only school. Skhanda is the fruition of coming into being previous different activities of body speech and mind and the result of this activity (karma) is our world compounded of the five skhandas. Skhanda does include our body and the world we know in this desire realm. I don't get you fully if you write, [form is not only form but also the conditions that form arises in dependence upon] If you mean, that form is not something in and out itself, does not arise out of itself (lack of agent), but dependent, you are right. (At least in our Madyamaka tradition) You wrote: I think abhidhamma would agree that this combination of factors is nonarising because it is a concept insofar as being a combination of factors. I don't know from which point you try to explain non-arising? At least from the Madyamaka point, this is explained little different. The point here is not that something is a concept and that's why it qualifies non-arising, but the fact, that at no point something or anybody can give rise out of itself as some independent agent. Lets see a example of the verse 13 Chapter 6 Madyamakavatara: When one asserts arising from itself, the thing to arise, that which makes it arise, the process of arising and the agent, all become one. However they are not identical. Therefore one should not maintain this view of an arising from itself, because in doing so the flaws expressed at length hold true. With this verse Chandrakirti explains that a true arising where the given effect that arises and its cause are identical, would necessarily imply that everything that is involved in such process of arising must be one. Whether it's the thing that arises, whether it’s that which makes it arise whether it's the process of arising itself, whether it's the agent involved. If the given effect is said to be of exactly the same nature as the cause, all these factors must necessarily be the same as well, and this doesn't work. It's therefore not appropriate, not right, illogical to maintain such a view. You wrote: Butabhidhamma pretty much insists on the impermanence of conditionally arising khandhas as the foundation of all insight. From abhidhamma's point of view, Nagarjuna doesn't really analyze form, etc., as it is understood by them, one consciousness at a time. You may help me to get this right? The internal khandas (the rest with the exception of form?)that is mind and its workings? The functional part of the mind? Can you give me a excursion on the different perspectives of form, from the Abhidharma point of view? Again, which Abhidharma do you use as reference standard work? With respect sincere Your Djimpa 51834 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:18am Subject: Greetings from Phil buddhatrue Hi All, Phil wrote me this message off-list and asked me to pass it along to the group: "Hello group. Thanks to all who have contacted me off-list. Sorry for the "drama queen" behaviour, as James would call it. :) I do think it's good for me to leave the group but perhaps I will send some cooments and questions to people off list, and they can share their feedback to me with the group. I just want to avoid even reading the adversarial threads, which, again, are rooted in the keen enthusiasm of the participitants, I know, but constantly irritate and distract this irritable and easily-distracted man. I wish you all well and bear no ill-will. It doesn't matter anyways - just a story. Let's all come to understand paramattha dhammas to the degree that we are able. (Or khandas, or dhatus, or ayatanas, or whatever other way the Buddha enlightened mind and matter, if you don't like the term "paramattha dhammas") **** Yes, please send that along James. And will be keeping in touch with you off-list. I do love you, you know. Hi to Amr. Phil 51835 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:39am Subject: Silly James buddhatrue Hi All, Just wanted to share one part of my conversation with Phil because I think it does need to be addressed: Actually, your > comments about grovelling dogs was rude, and the > postive spin your tried to > put on it (I love dogs) was insufficient to take > away the derogatory tone > (you are an English teacher, so you know what is > implied by "grovelling") Yes, yes. You got me on that. I realized it was rude after I posted it and then wished I could take it back. I tried to back peddle with that "But I love dogs" post! LOL! How lame! I just let my irritation show too easily, and got carried away with the rhythm of the words. It isn't until afterwards that I re-read what I wrote and think "Hmmm...that is pretty psycho!" ;-)) Sarah has, in the past, suggested that I keep a drafts folder so that I can read my posts later and fix those things I write while "in the heat of the moment". But I haven't been able to do that yet. Too impatient. Want to see my words published too quickly! (just conceit, I know). Actually, what I need is an editor. I was writing one post one time and I wasn't sure if it was okay or not. Amr was around so I read it to him and he said, "I can tell you really want to send this but you should wait until tomorrow." I replied, "If I wait until tomorrow I probably won't send it." He said, "Yeah, so you should wait until tomorrow and then probably not send it!" I ended up not sending it- which was good thing because it would have just caused some more problems on DSG! (BTW, I want to share this one part of my reply to you with DSG. I want to explain and apologize.) Metta, James 51836 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Phil,(Betty, James, Howard & all), > Hi Sarah (and All), Thanks for the very nice post. It is well-balanced and magnanimous. Maybe this isn't the best time, since the dust hasn't completely settled, but I still have two issues I have been waiting for you to address: 1.You promised me an explanation, without complex Pali, as to why KS doesn't teach against Right Concentration even though she discourages formal meditation practice. 2.I was wondering if anyone asked her my question about the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, which calls for the beginner to pick on of the four foundations based on accumulations, and what she had to say in response. In other words, why does she speak against that commentary? Now, I want to calmly, without outrageous metaphors and name- calling, explain my concern about KS and her followers. Every person who practices formal meditation is going to experience doubt. The Buddha taught that doubt is one of the five hindrances and everyone, without exception, will experience doubt about the meditation practice itself. What I see, and I could be wrong, is that KS speaks to this doubt in people and tells them that their doubt is justified because meditation isn't necessary. Someone who is confused, upset, and weary with their meditation practice is going to love this kind of answer and really attach to the speaker. This is how cults are formed: Charismatic leaders speak to people's fears and insecurities and convince them that the leader has the right answers. I am not name-calling, I am just telling you how I see it. What I wonder is: Did you, on your own, decided that meditation was wrong practice and then go seek out someone who taught this? Or did you decide that it was wrong practice after you listened to KS? Does KS acknowledge that not everyone has the capability to be "dry insight" workers and that some people need to meditate? Does her "Foundation for Dhamma-Study" have a meditation hall for those who wish to practice meditation along with their dhamma study? Give these issues some thought and get back to me. I hope that I have been nice in this post and have explained my concerns in a understandable manner. Metta, James 51837 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:50am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ... > I have not touched the topic. If you want me, > please just reply this message with 'contrated form of the message > you want to discuss. Because I do not have enough time and I will be > checking only related letters. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > Dear Htoo Naing Thanks for your reaction that you want to answer "my" (partly I was only a messanger) questions. In fact there some linked questions in a long discussion in which Rob M was leading. To me the most important were: 1. Is having been in fourth jhana needed to get a arahant? 2. Is having been in fourth jhana needed to get a stream-enterer? 3. Are the Suttas consistent about this questions (see below)? 4. If there are any differences in "what had to be done" between arahant and stream-enterer, what is the meaning of the fact that a stream-enterer gets a arahant within seven rebirths (in my words: automatically)? 5. Is it correct what my vipassana-teachers are saying (insight- meditation Mahasi style) that insight-meditation is better than samatha (included jhana) because in samatha the kliesas are only suppressed, not purified? (I hope they are because I don't know any Theravada-based teacher in my country that gives jhanic meditation and I think doing it on my own is risky.) (6. A question that was not so important to me but still played a role in the discussion: Is it correct that a householders can only get stream-enterer; for getting arahant one has to be a monk, because of the renunciations) Apology for my informal language but this is the way I think about this - for me important - topics. Metta Joop Argument in the Suttas pro: "first till fourth jhana are needed to awaken" MahaSatipatthana Sutta (DN 22) about the Noble Eightfold Path: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. " Argument in the Suttas pro: "only first jhana is enough to awaken": MahaSaccaka Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 36) "I thought: `I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then—quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities— I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: `That is the path to Awakening." 51838 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment nidive Hi Joop, These are also questions that are of interest to me. > 1. Is having been in fourth jhana needed to get a arahant? My opinion: No. > 2. Is having been in fourth jhana needed to get a stream-enterer? My opinion: No. > 4. If there are any differences in "what had to be done" between > arahant and stream-enterer, what is the meaning of the fact that a > stream-enterer gets a arahant within seven rebirths (in my words: > automatically)? My opinion: We can only take it on faith that a stream-enterer will be totally unbound in at most seven rebirths. This knowledge is the special knowledge of a Buddha. Conjecturing on it only leads to vexation and "madness". > 5. Is it correct what my vipassana-teachers are saying (insight- > meditation Mahasi style) that insight-meditation is better than > samatha (included jhana) because in samatha the kliesas are only > suppressed, not purified? (I hope they are because I don't know any > Theravada-based teacher in my country that gives jhanic meditation > and I think doing it on my own is risky.) The Buddha stresses both samatha and insight. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an-02-030-tb0.html "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment- release." -------------------------------------------------------------------- My opinion is that samatha at the level of jhanas is required for non- return and arahantship, but not necessary for stream-entry and once- return. Stream-entry and once-return do not need perfect concentration. I am also of the opinion that attaining just the first jhana is sufficient for once-return and arahantship. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2. html#part2-g [6] Any concentration accompanied by directed thought & evaluation is concentration as a factor for Awakening. And any concentration unaccompanied by directed thought & evaluation is also concentration as a factor for Awakening. Thus this forms the definition of 'concentration as a factor for Awakening,' and it is in this manner that it is two. — SN XLVI.52 -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- MN 64 Bhikkhu Bodhi (Courtesy of Christine) 9. "And what, Aananda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from object of attachment [note 654], with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. [note 655] He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: `This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana." [note 656] Standing upon that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints, then because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, [note 657], with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbaana without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > (6. A question that was not so important to me but still played a > role in the discussion: > Is it correct that a householders can only get stream-enterer; for > getting arahant one has to be a monk, because of the renunciations) My opinion: Householders can be stream-enterers (Anathapindika), once- returners (one of Anathapindika's daughter), non-returners (Citta the householder) and arahants (the Buddha's father if I am not wrong, who attained just before his death). But living householder arahants must always be ordained into the Sangha. Regards, Swee Boon 51839 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:28am Subject: Re: Firewood-gathering matheesha333 > Hello Mateesha, all, > > Was there anything in particular you wished to discuss about this > sutta? Thank you Christine. I just came across the wonderful sutta which struck a chord in me and wanted to share it with everyone here. So many people discussion about formal/non formal practice - I just wanted to shoot this out and let it fall where it may. I'm not particularly inclined to discuss it. I rather just let it be. take care Matheesha 51840 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment htootintnaing Joop wrote: Dear Htoo Naing Thanks for your reaction that you want to answer "my" (partly I was only a messanger) questions. In fact there some linked questions in a long discussion in which Rob M was leading. To me the most important were: 1. Is having been in fourth jhana needed to get a arahant? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a hard question. I do not know how Rob K has answered this. The exact point when arahatta magga citta arises is not 'in 4th jhaana'. This is my hard opinion. When arahatta magga citta is going to arise citta of jhaana or whatever pass away. My believe is that 'not necessary'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Is having been in fourth jhana needed to get a stream-enterer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Well, those who became sotapams while listening to Dhamma did not have 4th jhaana. So 4th jhaana is not necessary to attain sotapatti magga naana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Are the Suttas consistent about this questions (see below)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will see below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. If there are any differences in "what had to be done" between arahant and stream-enterer, what is the meaning of the fact that a stream-enterer gets a arahant within seven rebirths (in my words: automatically)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not automatically but getting more and more mature and perfected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Is it correct what my vipassana-teachers are saying (insight- meditation Mahasi style) that insight-meditation is better than samatha (included jhana) because in samatha the kliesas are only suppressed, not purified? (I hope they are because I don't know any Theravada-based teacher in my country that gives jhanic meditation and I think doing it on my own is risky.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Different. Jhaana is attractive. If it is attained in immatured state, jhaana is dangerous. Without a good teacher is risky for jhaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (6. A question that was not so important to me but still played a role in the discussion: Is it correct that a householders can only get stream-enterer; for getting arahant one has to be a monk, because of the renunciations) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Householders may attain up to anaagaami magga naana. But arahatta magga naana when attained householder will enter the order of Sangha. Otherwise they will do parinibbana on the same day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Apology for my informal language but this is the way I think about this - for me important - topics. Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. Language is not a problem as long as we are on the tract of communication. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now, I am reading the following message; ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Argument in the Suttas pro: "first till fourth jhana are needed to awaken" MahaSatipatthana Sutta (DN 22) about the Noble Eightfold Path: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. " ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ayam - this, these There are many ideas in the whole passage in this part. I have written to Tep regarding this. 1. free of hindrance (not in absorption) 2. 1st jhaana 3. free of hindrance while existing 1st jhaana 4. 2nd jhaana 5. 2nd jhaana exit 6. 3rd jhaana 7. 3rd jhaana exit 8. 4th jhaana 9. 4th jhaana exit 10.1st aruupa jhaana 11.1st aruupa jhaana exit 12.2nd aruupa jhaana 13.2nd aruupa jhaana exit 14.3rd aruupa jhaana 15.3rd aruupa jhaana exit 16.4th aruupa jhaana 17.4th aruupa jhaana exit All these are samma-samaadhi, no doubt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Argument in the Suttas pro: "only first jhana is enough to awaken": MahaSaccaka Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 36) "I thought: `I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then—quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities— I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: `That is the path to Awakening." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comment: Well, nibbana is beyond loka. Lokuttaraa means 'beyond loka'. There are 3 loka. 1. kaama loka 2. ruupa loka 3. aruupa loka When approach 1st jhaana this is releasing of kaama. So it goes beyond kaama. Likewise, if someone attains ruupa jhaana he has to go beyond ruupa jhaana. So he has to exist from ruupa jhaana. Likewise, if someone attains aruupa jhaana he has to go beyond aruupa jhaana. So he has to exit from aruupa jhaana and go beyond aruupa jhaana. My hard opinion is that 1. 1st ruupa jhaana (in absorption) 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana (in absorption ) 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana (in absorption ) 4. 4th ruupa jhaana (in absorption ) are all not at the time of magga. Because they are still in ruupa. Not beyond that. So not lokuttaraa. So not part of Ariyan's NEP. With Metta, Htoo Naing 51841 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:01pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) matheesha333 Hi Sarah,everyone Nice to have you back again. I feel somewhat responsible for some of the heated exchanges going on in this group. I feel some of my comments may have been inappropriate and written when it shouldnt have been written (when my mind was in the grip of defilements), even though I do try to avoid inflamatory language, one answer to Jon I felt was too strong. My apologies. This I feel is the danger here. Or maybe that should this is the danger of my own mind! You mentioned that dhammas cannot be controlled. I would like to discuss this with you, but only if you would like to. metta Matheesha 51842 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Matheesha (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > You mentioned that dhammas cannot be controlled. I would like to > discuss this with you, but only if you would like to. > If I may interject here, from my viewpoint this comment from Sarah doesn't make any sense. It is a mixing of conventional reality and ultimate reality in a way that is oxymoronic. Let's examine the statement more closely: "Dhammas cannot be controlled" Dhammas: Ultimate Reality Controlled: Conventional Reality It doesn't make sense to apply conventional reality to ultimate reality. "Controlled" doesn't apply to ultimate reality. I can `control' how much hot water goes into my bath. I can `control' how often I feed my cat. I can `control' what time I go to bed. But I cannot control `how' my eyes see light. I cannot control `how' my ears hear sound. I cannot control `how' my tongue tastes flavors. I cannot control `how' my body feels sensations. But, so what? This is a non-issue and Sarah is using this fact of existence in the wrong way. Maybe we can't `control' dhammas, but we can surely control how and when we post to DSG. That is within our control. Metta, James 51843 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise: para 342 - 367. Ground vii. buddhistmedi... Hi, all - This post presents Ground vii of Tetrad II. (vii) 342. How is it that (13) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the cognizance formation', (14) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the cognizance formation'? [Analysis of the Object of Contemplation] 343. What is the cognizance formation? Perception and feeling due to long in-breaths are mental; these things, being bound up with cognizance, are cognizance formations. [See M i 301]] Perception and feeling due to long out-breaths ... short in-breaths ... short out-breaths ... in-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths] ... out- breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths] ... in-breaths tranquillizing the body formations ... out-breaths tranquillizing the body formations ... in-breaths while acquainted with happiness ... out-breaths while acquainted with happiness ... in-breaths while acquainted with pleasure ...out-breaths while acquainted with pleasure are mental; these things, being bound up with cognizance, are cognizance formations. This is the cognizance formation. 344. How is he acquainted with those cognizance formations? When he understands unification of cognizance and non-distraction through long in-breaths, ... long out-breaths, ... short in-breaths, ... short out- breaths, ... in-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths], ... in-breaths tranquilizing the body formation, ... out-breaths tranquilizing the body formation, ... in-breaths while acquainted with happiness, ... out-breaths while acquainted with happiness, his mindfulness is established. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge those cognizance formations are experienced. 345. When he adverts, those cognizance formations are experienced. when he knows, ... [and so on as in para 242 up to] ... When he realizes what is to be realized, those cognizance formations are experienced. That is how those cognizance formations are experienced. [The Foundation of Mindfulness] 346. Through in-braths and out-breaths while acquainted with the cognizance formation there is feeling. The establishment is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The feeling is the establishment, but it is not the mindfulness. Mindfulness is both the establishment and the mindfulness. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he contemplates that feeling. Hence 'Development of the foundation of Mindfulness consisting in contemplation of feelings as feelings' is said. 347. He contemplates: ... [repeat para 197]. 348. Development: ... [repeat para 198]. [Training] 349 -50. In-breaths and out-breaths experiencing the cognizance formation are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint: ...[repeat the rest of para 246 -7 up to the end]. [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 351 - 54. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the cognizance formation, his feelings are recognized as they arise, ... [and so on as in para 199 -202 up to the end]. [Combining the Faculties, Etc.] 355 -67. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through in-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the cognizance formation, he combines the faculties, ... [and so on as in para 203 -15]. Tep's Note: This is the end of Ground vi in Tetrad II. Best wishes, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > This post presents Ground vi in Tetrad II. > > (vi) > > 316. How is it that (11) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted 51844 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:28pm Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment nidive Hi Joop, > I am also of the opinion that attaining just the first jhana is > sufficient for once-return and arahantship. Correction: I am also of the opinion that attaining just the first jhana is sufficient for non-return and arahantship. Regards, Swee Boon 51845 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) kenhowardau Hi Howard and Matheesha (+ Swee Boon and James), Recent events at DSG have, if anything, made me even more keen to continue discussions. However, my only current conversation (this one with you) has reached a rather awkward stage. For various reasons it has given me writer's block, which after three days I am determined to overcome. So here goes - sorry for continuing in the debating style, and please don't feel obliged to respond if you have already said all you want to say. ------------------------------------------- KH: > . . .Then I learned > some basic Abhidhamma and realised I had been misunderstanding the > suttas. I realised that reality was nothing more than citta, > cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. > ................ Howard: >In slightly different language, that's exactly what's taught in the suttas, themselves. What, after all, are the five khandhas? What are the dhatus? ----------------------------------------- Yes, I know that. The emphasis was meant to be on the words, "nothing more." Very few Buddhists realise that the world taught by the Buddha was nothing more than the namas and rupas that arise in a single moment of consciousness. ------------------------------ KH: > > After that earth- > shattering intellectual realisation, how could there be any continued > interest in formal practice? Why should there be? >................ Howard: >There is a non-sequitur if ever there was one! ----------------------------------------- I had to check with my dictionary and, yes, you are saying that disinterest in formal practice "does not logically follow" from realisation of the momentary nature of the world. Well, I say it does! :-) Eventually, it leads to disinterest (disillusionment) with everything apart from Nibbana, does it not? ----------------------------------- KH: > > Once it is understood that there are only dhammas, how could there be > any desire to attain anything? > .................. Howard: > Surely you are not claiming that having read Abhidhamma you no longer desire, are you? ------------------------------------------ No. What kind of question was that? What's the Latin for, 'Shoot the messenger?' :-) ---------------------------------------------------------- H: > Also, who was that "I" you speak of who realized that he had previously misunderstood the suttas? If "you" can realize things, then "you" can also practice. That's all just a figurative way of expressing what is impractically expressed in a fully literal manner. ---------------------------------------------------------- I can't see the point you are making. ---------------------- KH: > > Who or what attains? No conditioned > > dhamma persists from one moment to the next. None of them > will attain anything. >.................... Howard: >That's right. No argument here. You believe that. So do I. Has it been directly seen in (what we call) your mindstream? If not, what will change that situation? You seem to me to be saying that realization is attainable in the same way that Dorothy got back to Kansas: "Close you eyes and tap your heels together three times. And think to yourself, there's no place like home." Results come about due to specific conditions, and merely ritualistically believing, thinking, and repeating truths is not enough. ---------------------------------------------- Why do I seem to be saying, "realization is attainable in the same way that Dorothy got back to Kansas?" Surely you are more likely to be accused of that (ritualistic practice) than I am. I have been saying there is only the present moment: if there is satipatthana now, then it is because of conditions, if there is something else now, then that is because of different conditions. I didn't mention "wanting something to happen in the future" - that is your idiosyncrasy, not mine. ------------------------------------ KH: > > But there is a middle way by which "practice" and "attainment" take > on a totally new, unconventional, meaning. Like everything > else, "practice" can be understood as just a moment of conditioned > dhammas but one that contains mundane right understanding. > ................... Howard: > Yes, that is changing the meaning to something entirely different. Now your approach seems to me to be closer to Alice in Wonderland (in which things mean simply what one says they mean) than to the Wizard of Oz.Every moment is "just a moment of conditioned dhammas," but not all moments are moments of practice. -------------------------------------- Again, I can't see the point you are making. -------------------------------------------------- KH: > > And "attainment" can be understood as a moment that contains > supramundane understanding. At no stage is there any need for the > idea of self - controlling or guiding the process of enlightenment > (or wanting it to happen) - everything is dependent upon conditions. >................. Howard: > Who mentioned "self"? A moment of "self" is a moment of illusion. You are throwing a red herring across the way -------------------------------------------------- I was saying that there was only the present moment (a co-arising of fleeting, unsatisfactory, empty, namas and rupas). This is the realisation that constitutes Buddhist practice. There is no need for a practice that relies on activities assumed to exist outside the present moment. In my opinion, any practice that relies on such assumed activities is a wrong practice, and, as I said, it relies on an idea of self. ----------------------------------------------------------------- H: > Approximately 99% of those on DSG believe that "self" is illusion, and some have seen that it is. That is a spurious issue with regard to this discussion. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I hope I have explained why (IMO) it is not a spurious issue. When you say, "some have seen that self is illusion," I think you are referring formal vipassana meditation. I entirely disbelieve all claims of vipassana knowledge attained during such practices. I am not saying that formal practices can somehow prevent vipassana knowledge; I am saying the two do not go together. When there are conditions for vipassana meditation there are no conditions for belief in formal vipassana meditation (pannatti-bhavana (?)). When you say, "99% of those in DSG believe that self is an illusion," can we assume the 1% is Swee Boon? As a devotee of Thanissaro, Swee Boon believes, "the Buddha did not teach no-self." According to the Thanissaro theory, if we can free our minds from "stress," we can find our real selves in Nibbana. Does it worry you that those eternalist beliefs come from meditators who are following the exact same practices you are following? ------------------ <. . .> KH: > > According to the texts, learning *directly from* dhammas is > conditioned by learning *indirectly about* dhammas, not by formal > practice. >........................... Howard: >That's just plain false, Ken. The suttas teach both! It seems to me that you became unhappy with your multi-year Dhamma practice and then used Abhidhamma as a means to escape from what made you unhappy. ------------------- As I have explained here on many occasions, I was not unhappy as a meditator. When I first looked for Buddhist groups on the internet I had an idea of teaching (handing on) my knowledge of formal vipassana meditation. You may well argue that my knowledge was incorrect knowledge (I know you will avoid the smutty, school-boy innuendoes James resorted to) but please don't tell me I was unhappy with it. ----------------------------------------------------- H: > Not all practice is right practice, and what is very useful for one person may not be for another. A close study of the suttas, and Buddhaghosa for that matter, will point towards right practice. ------------------------------------------------------ Please continue with this line of discussion. I would like to see any textual references to the kinds of practice outlined on the current DSG thread; "Meditation Question." ----------------------------------------------------- <. . .> Howard: I almost never use the term "formal practice" - just "practice". And Dhamma practice is not a one-trick pony. It is complex, and deep, and varied, and requires, quite essentally, ongoing effort and enormous patience. --------------------------------------- I have no argument with that except if it goes outside the loka (the All). Viriya and panna and other dhammas within the loka can sometimes be understood in terms of 'on-going' and 'patience' but they must also be understood as absolutely momentary. Ken H 51846 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions lbidd2 Hi Djimpa, Too many questions. I hardly know where to begin. Also, I am not an expert, so my answers may not be correct. Let's start with these: Djimpa: " Does in your school of thought Khanda apply to the body, mind system of each individual?" Larry: Yes. Body is rupa and mind is nama. Mind is composed of feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. D: "Does it mean that the five khandas are a/multiple ultimate(s)?" L: Yes, 5 ultimate phenomena (paramattha dhamma). D: "But how can be something ultimate which is impermanent because of being compounded?" L: Actually, this is a difficult question. First, the word "compounded" is difficult. In Pali this word is sankhara, (Skt. samskhara). It means both compounded and caused. In the ultimate sense an ultimate reality isn't a compound. But, due to delusion, realities appear to be compounded. This appearance is conventional compounded reality. For example, you might see what appears to be a tree (conventional reality), but ultimately this appearance is only green, brown, yellow, etc. rupas. That you see this these rupas is said to be the fruition of kamma (karma). A volitional consciousness in the past is a condition for the arising of these very brief moments of consciousness of these rupas. A volition is also called sankhara, for example, love, hate, confusion. D: "Does form always stay as form, and never change its outlook? Does feeling always stay as one state without change? Does perception remain always the same, (also in your dream). Does your consciousness has no space for variation and change?" L: You tell me. The only way to know is by looking at your experience. You can't know by reasoning from a book. D: "How would you be able to bring about a change on the path towards nibbana if no space for variation can take place?" L: Change happens by means of dependent arising (paticcasamuppada, Skt. pratityasamutpada). How, in middle-way analysis, can dependent arising be nonarising? D: "On the other hand the ultimate devinition nibbana lacks the five khandas (the arhat without reminder) which is the ultimate goal in the Therevada tradition. Isn't it?" L: Yes. D: "How can this system make sense? Because taking you literally, nibbana and the khandas are one in nature? Or, do you refere to multiple ultimate natures?" L: Six ultimate natures, in general. Ultimately an ultimate nature is only a very brief moment of experience. So there are countless ultimate natures, or, only the one ultimate nature of this moment which is already gone (gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi, svaha). You asked about source books. Here there are many written by two contemporary authors: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Nina Van Gorkom is a regular contributor here. She is traveling in S.E. Asia at the moment but will be back in a couple of weeks. Classical sources include "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Acariya Anuruddha, Bhikkhu Bodhi editor. And "The Path of Purification" by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa, Bhikkhu ~Nanamoli translator. I can give you a link where you can buy these if you are interested. Here at dsg we refer to these two quite a lot; so you can get a taste of them if you stick around, or search the archives ("CMA" and "Vism." for "Visuddhimagga"). Either one would make an interesting comparison with the "Abhidharmakosabhasyam". Larry 51847 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and all) - In a message dated 10/26/05 10:09:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > > Hi Howard and Matheesha (+ Swee Boon and James), > > Recent events at DSG have, if anything, made me even more keen to > continue discussions. However, my only current conversation (this > one with you) has reached a rather awkward stage. For various reasons > it has given me writer's block, which after three days I am > determined to overcome. So here goes - sorry for continuing in the > debating style, and please don't feel obliged to respond if you have > already said all you want to say. > > ------------------------------------------- > KH: >. . .Then I learned > >some basic Abhidhamma and realised I had been misunderstanding the > >suttas. I realised that reality was nothing more than citta, > >cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. > >................ > > Howard: >In slightly different language, that's exactly what's taught > in the suttas, themselves. What, after all, are the five khandhas? > What are the dhatus? > ----------------------------------------- > > Yes, I know that. The emphasis was meant to be on the words, "nothing > more." Very few Buddhists realise that the world taught by the Buddha > was nothing more than the namas and rupas that arise in a single > moment of consciousness. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Other than the "moment" concept, we see this in the same way. ---------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > KH: >>After that earth- > >shattering intellectual realisation, how could there be any > continued > >interest in formal practice? Why should there be? > >................ > > Howard: >There is a non-sequitur if ever there was one! > ----------------------------------------- > > I had to check with my dictionary and, yes, you are saying that > disinterest in formal practice "does not logically follow" from > realisation of the momentary nature of the world. Well, I say it > does! :-) > > Eventually, it leads to disinterest (disillusionment) with everything > apart from Nibbana, does it not? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Are you claiming to have reached that stage, Ken? If you have, my hat is off to you, and you ceratinly need little if any practice. If not, then I stick with my evaluation. ----------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------- > KH: >>Once it is understood that there are only dhammas, how could > there be > >any desire to attain anything? > >.................. > > Howard: >Surely you are not claiming that having read Abhidhamma you > no longer desire, are you? > ------------------------------------------ > > No. What kind of question was that? What's the Latin for, 'Shoot the > messenger?' :-) ------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get your point at all. ----------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > H: >Also, who was that "I" you speak of who realized that he had > previously misunderstood the suttas? If "you" can realize things, > then "you" can also practice. That's all just a figurative way of > expressing what is impractically expressed in a fully literal manner. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > I can't see the point you are making. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, then - we're having a most fruitful converation: I don't see your points and you don't see mine! There'a a nice balance to that, however! ;-) --------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > KH: >>Who or what attains? No conditioned > > >dhamma persists from one moment to the next. None of them > >will attain anything. > > >.................... > > Howard: >That's right. No argument here. You believe that. So do I. > Has it been directly seen in (what we call) your mindstream? If not, > what will change that situation? You seem to me to be saying that > realization is attainable in the same way that Dorothy got back to > Kansas: "Close you eyes and tap your heels together three times. And > think to yourself, there's no place like home." > Results come about due to specific conditions, and merely > ritualistically believing, thinking, and repeating truths is not > enough. > ---------------------------------------------- > > Why do I seem to be saying, "realization is attainable in the same > way that Dorothy got back to Kansas?" Surely you are more likely to > be accused of that (ritualistic practice) than I am. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I knew you's say that. Frankly, I think if someone said to you lots of things that the Buddha said, but didn't let you know the source, you'd accuse the person of clinging to mere rite & ritual. ----------------------------------------------- > > I have been saying there is only the present moment: if there is > satipatthana now, then it is because of conditions, if there is > something else now, then that is because of different conditions. I > didn't mention "wanting something to happen in the future" - that is > your idiosyncrasy, not mine. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Did Gotama leave home for some reason other than "wanting something to happen in the future"? I'm afraif it was his "idiosyncasy" as well! Are you better than the Bodhisatta? ------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > KH: >>But there is a middle way by which "practice" > and "attainment" take > >on a totally new, unconventional, meaning. Like everything > >else, "practice" can be understood as just a moment of conditioned > >dhammas but one that contains mundane right understanding. > >................... > Howard: >Yes, that is changing the meaning to something entirely > different. Now your approach seems to me to be closer to Alice in > Wonderland (in which things mean simply what one says they mean) than > to the Wizard of Oz.Every moment is "just a moment of conditioned > dhammas," but not all moments are moments of practice. > -------------------------------------- > > Again, I can't see the point you are making. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: C'est la vie! ---------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > KH: >>And "attainment" can be understood as a moment that contains > >supramundane understanding. At no stage is there any need for the > >idea of self - controlling or guiding the process of enlightenment > >(or wanting it to happen) - everything is dependent upon conditions. > >................. > > Howard: >Who mentioned "self"? A moment of "self" is a moment of > illusion. You are throwing a red herring across the way > -------------------------------------------------- > > I was saying that there was only the present moment (a co-arising of > fleeting, unsatisfactory, empty, namas and rupas). This is the > realisation that constitutes Buddhist practice. There is no need for > a practice that relies on activities assumed to exist outside the > present moment. > ------------------------------------- Howard: It's always now. Your point is empty. ------------------------------------- In my opinion, any practice that relies on such > > assumed activities is a wrong practice, and, as I said, it relies on > an idea of self. ------------------------------------- Howard: You should take that up with the Buddha. -------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > H: >Approximately 99% of those on DSG > believe that "self" is illusion, and some have seen that it is. That > is a spurious issue with regard to this discussion. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I hope I have explained why (IMO) it is not a spurious issue. > > When you say, "some have seen that self is illusion," I think you are > referring formal vipassana meditation. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The statement stands on its own. I said nothing of a particular mode of practice. My preferred mode doesn't separate samatha bhavana from vipassana bhavana. ---------------------------------------- I entirely disbelieve all > > claims of vipassana knowledge attained during such practices. -------------------------------------- Howard: Your prerogative to believe or disbelieve whatever you wish. -------------------------------------- > I am > not saying that formal practices can somehow prevent vipassana > knowledge; I am saying the two do not go together. When there are > conditions for vipassana meditation there are no conditions for > belief in formal vipassana meditation (pannatti-bhavana (?)). > > When you say, "99% of those in DSG believe that self is an illusion," > can we assume the 1% is Swee Boon? As a devotee of Thanissaro, Swee > Boon believes, "the Buddha did not teach no-self." According to the > Thanissaro theory, if we can free our minds from "stress," we can > find our real selves in Nibbana. Does it worry you that those > eternalist beliefs come from meditators who are following the exact > same practices you are following? ------------------------------------------ Howard: The foregoing is full of presumptions that I don't accept, and so calls for no response. ----------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > <. . .> > KH: >>According to the texts, learning *directly from* dhammas is > >conditioned by learning *indirectly about* dhammas, not by formal > >practice. > >........................... > > Howard: >That's just plain false, Ken. The suttas teach both! It > seems to me that you became unhappy with your multi-year Dhamma > practice and then used Abhidhamma as a means to escape from what made > you unhappy. > ------------------- > > As I have explained here on many occasions, I was not unhappy as a > meditator. When I first looked for Buddhist groups on the internet I > had an idea of teaching (handing on) my knowledge of formal vipassana > meditation. You may well argue that my knowledge was incorrect > knowledge (I know you will avoid the smutty, school-boy innuendoes > James resorted to) but please don't tell me I was unhappy with it. ------------------------------------- Howard: I apologize. My mistake. I understood you to say you were disappointed with it. I stand corrected. ----------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------- > H: >Not all practice is right practice, and what is very useful for > one person may not be for another. A close study of the suttas, and > Buddhaghosa for that matter, will point towards right practice. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Please continue with this line of discussion. I would like to see > any textual references to the kinds of practice outlined on the > current DSG thread; "Meditation Question." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > <. . .> > Howard: > I almost never use the term "formal practice" - just "practice". And > Dhamma practice is not a one-trick pony. It is complex, and deep, and > varied, and requires, quite essentally, ongoing effort and enormous > patience. > --------------------------------------- > > I have no argument with that except if it goes outside the loka (the > All). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: What!? ------------------------------------------- Viriya and panna and other dhammas within the loka can > > sometimes be understood in terms of 'on-going' and 'patience' but > they must also be understood as absolutely momentary. > > Ken H > > ========================= Ken, I guess this is an instance of "Never the twain shall meet"! Ah, well. :-( With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51848 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Forwarded part of reply from Phil to be shared on list! Let's all help act as couriers for the time being to assist:) S. ***** Hello Sarah and all (thanks larry, Andrew and joop for your feedback and encouragement, others have already been thanked off-list) Welcome back, Sarah, and sorry again for dumping on this when you are getting back from a long trip instead of waiting a bit as I would have done if I had developed certain perfections a wee bit more. But it was constantly bugging me so I wanted to clear my noggin of it. Sarah: I feel some sympathy like Andrew, but I think James, Howard (and Larry too) made some good points. As James said 'this is a dhamma study group, not a A.Sujin group...?Eand so on. Yes, there is a reference to A.Sujin in the homepage description as an indication of our appreciation for her assistance to us. We considered removing this many years ago, but it was Howard who was giving us assistance with the wording at the time,who suggested it stay as it is. Ph: Well, as you know I am (and I hate to use this word but it?fs true) a devotee of listening to the recorded talks, and the dynamic there is very much students listening to teacher, even though she is usually called Kh. Sujin rather than A. Sujin. There is some questioning of her (I love the bit when you question her on the ?gnama is more subtle/refined than rupa?h bit, or ?gwhen and where is moha?h) but the dynamic is very much students listening to teacher, respectfully, no matter whether she thinks of herself as a teacher or not. And it is that dynamic that I am absorbing these days, so come to the online list with that dynamic in mind. Of course there is a lot of lobha for that dynamic, and as we know dosa arises from that lobha, so the dosa I get here is perfectly understandable. It?fs just a confirmation of the Buddha?fs teaching. I had assumed that this group was a kind of extension of the Bangkok group?fs talks. I will reconsider that. Maybe the home page could be clarified. S: It's not a black and white issue and certainly not intended to be any kind of 'dojo yaburi' here as I've said many times. We like to hear from people with different understandings so that we have a chance to discuss and address such views. We don't expect or ask anyone to agree with anything any of us say here or anything any teacher says either. We're all investigating and discussing the Buddha's teachings and I believe we all learn from being rigorously questioned as we are here. Certainly Nina always says how much she learns from our many friends here. It is one thing to quote or paraphrase K.Sujin's comments in books and letters and posts. It's another thing to patiently explore the divergent interpretations of the texts and to respond in our own words, based on our own deep reflections. In the end, the teachings are not in any book or in anyone's words, however beautifully said or written, but only in our own direct testing of these dhammas at the present moment. Ph: Very well said, absolutely true. So the problem is my problem, or should I say my understanding of what is best know for understanding to be developed for Phil. I had thought that it was really important to read the list to come into contact with other views, but these days I?fm finding that when I read and reflect (meditate, is more like it) on suttas in the morning and later listen to talks I am finding areas of divergence from A. Sujin?fs teaching that is very interesting for me to reflect on, now and then. So, relying on my own understanding to develop rather than having other views thrust on me for instant download. The list is just overwhelming for this beginner in that sense. I also find the internet discussion method of posting links to suttas to prove points is overwhelming and kind of cheapens the suttas or something. No, not cheapens, because, again, there is wholesome intention on the part of the person linking to suttas. But suttas need to be reflected on slowly, and I find it kind of fries my brain to have so many suttas thrust on it to prove so many points in so many threads. So it is the very vitality of DSG, the very volume of posts by knowledgeable and wise people that in the end makes it counterproductive for me, maybe? Too much of a good thing too fast too soon? As for the hostile posts that come up some time, the overly aggressive ones, that is rare and can be understood with equanimity. James, for example, whom I have come to find very lovable. His posts piss me off at times, but that goes quickly. It is a more pervasive thing, the energy of throwing points back and forth at each other that I find exhausting and counter-producitve. So it is no fault of the moderators, it is the nature of the internet, and is inevitable. And let?fs be honest. There are aspects of A. Sujin?fs teaching that will always stir controversy. As Larry pointed out some weeks back, during another one of my drama queen outbursts, people have attachment to their meditation practices and will naturally enough get their backs up when they have them questioned. As the number of internet users increases, DSG will only become more debate/contentious discussion oriented. As you?fve pointed out above, that is welcomed by people, and good for developing understanding. But for other people, including people like myself who haven?ft developed much equanimity and are easily distracted, it is too much of a good thing. Sarah :Yes, we all feel irritations and much worse from time to time. The still waters we crave are often disturbed. If they are not disturbed by a comment on list, then they'll be disturbed by the children upstairs or drilling (like now for me!), by the difficult conditions on a trip (there were a few temper outbursts even in our dhamma group of friends in India, in spite of mostly being K.Sujin 'followers:-) Ph: Oh my goodness! I hope they were recorded!! As I said to James off list, I do realize that clinging to still waters is not wise, but to be perfectly honest I have a hard and busy daily life in a foreign culture and have plenty of opportunities to develop metta and equanimity and patience in my daily life. I do cling to the notion of a Dhamma discussion that is more placid, I admit it. So am comforted by listening to the Dhamma talks, in that sense, even as understanding is stimulated by them. (And there is irritation too – I still get pissed off every time I hear people laughing when Azita asks the question about wanting to have more intellectual understanding about how to recognize the motion rupa) Sarah: Dhammas are uncontrollable. No one can have visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily experiences just as they wish. We forget about kamma and vipaka and the combination of other conditions all the time. We think that we can plan and arrange and avoid difficulties. But it's impossible. Phil: Understanding this helps me a lot. When bad things happen in daily life, just understanding the above intellectually helps so much. I feel so grateful for having come to understand this. But, again, there is special clinging to expectations about Dhamma discussion. And, most importantly, a lack of time, and a beloved wife who thinks it?fs weird for me to spend so much time discussing online when I spend hardly any time whatsoever with ?greal?h friends. (In fact, I consider you all real friends more than the guys I could go drinking with (oops!) here. So when I have more time, there will be more ?gspace?h for discussion threads. Sarah: As James said too, there have always been and will always be disagreements. The Buddha was abused and listened to strong disagreements, even by close associates who caused schisms. And as James further said, he didn't tell us to avoid disagreements or difficult people. He taught us to really understand the meaning of the 'good friend?E The meaning, as I understand it, is to develop metta and the other brahma viharas not just when we're associating with people of our liking or hearing words that are pleasant to us, but whomever we find ourselves amongst right now. In other words, we have to learn to be the good friend to others rather than thinking of ourselves as we're so used to doing. Phil: I do understand this. See above. But I have my limits. You wouldn?ft believe how much energy I pour into my teaching job. Well, yes you would. You were/are a teacher too. So I feel a bit selfish here. There are limits to how much energy I can pour out to help others. Sarah: For my part, I'd be very glad to hear the points you referred to which you disagree with. You can ask (well, you have asked) others not to cheer you on from the sidelines and they may respect this, but in an open discussion group, we're bound to all share our comments and join in different threads. I'm sure that many of our 'chip ins?Eor disagreements with the views of other respected teachers are just as annoying to their 'followers?E Phil: Excellent point about annoying others. I?fm aware of how I sometimes post things that I know will be annoying to others and make overly stated statements about greed and ignorance about Dhamma (assuming too much, as Tep says) in a kind of ?gflaming?h way. That is another reason to take a break from discussion threads. As for the points I disagree with, I will bring them up if they keep coming up and catching my attention. I thought of a way to continue participating. I think I will send questions or comments to people that I hear in the talks, with brief bits of transcription of the talks. They can share my question/comment and their response with the group, as well as getting back to me off list. That way I can continue to contribute to the group without getting involved in discussion threads, for the time being at least. Sarah: As soon as I've unpacked, got over my cough and so on, I'll be back to chipping in on other dojo yaburi threads if I can refer to them in that way. I'd also be glad to hear any disagreements you (or others) have with this letter. Phil: I will leave it there. To conclude, it is not so much the moderating or lack of moderating of mean-spirited posts, it is the sheer volume of contention, the speed of it, the easiness of posting sutta links to prove points that has come to overwhelm me. That?fs what it comes down to. Wiser people just dip in and out, but I have so much lobha related to the internet that I always get caught up in things, so I will leave the group until I have more time. And contribute indirectly, if that is ok with people. (I will ask off list.) Thanks again. I have to go now, but I will read the rest of your letter later – for sure. Phil 51849 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:06pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 293 Aversion-dosa (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] The Atthasåliní (II, Book I, Part IX, Chapter III, 257) defines dosa as follows: * "…It has flying into anger or churlishness as characteristic, like a smitten snake; spreading of itself or writhing as when poison takes effect, as function; or, burning that on which it depends (1) as function, like jungle-fire; offending or injuring as manifestation, like a foe who has got his chance; having the grounds of vexation as proximate cause, like urine mixed with poison." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 171) gives a similar definition of dosa (2). We read that the characteristic of dosa is flying into anger like a smitten snake. When a snake has been hit he is likely to become fierce and attack. Dosa is aggressive, just like a snake which has been hit. The function of dosa is spreading of itself or writhing as when poison takes effect. When poison has been taken it affects the whole body and it causes suffering. Dosa has likewise an ill effect, it is harmful. The function of dosa is also compared to a jungle-fire which burns that on which it depends. Dosa is destructive like a jungle-fire which consumes the forest. *** 1) Namely, its physical base, which is the heart-base. The rúpa which is the physical base of all cittas other than the sense-cognitions of seeing, hearing, etc., is called the heart-base. See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 17. 2) Compare also Dhammasangaùi §418. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 51850 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions sarahprocter... Hi Djimpa, I'm not attempting to answer any of your questions here, but just wish to welcome you to the list. --- "D." wrote: > At this point i like to make a personal remark, what i found out > after studying a couple of years in India and in Europe, the more i > learn the more i feel the fire got not know enough. > A kind of spiral of inner activity dynamics of inner lack knowledge > to find the right questions which lead to the right goal. ... S: May I ask where you live? Do you come from India? As you'll have noticed, several of us have just returned from a trip to India and the Holy Places. It's good to read of your interest in the Abhidhamma and Larry has already given you some links and references to the Theravada Abhidhamma sources. You (and others) may find it less confusing to consider the dhammas discussed in these texts here and how they can be known now, as we speak! Larry usually asks us all difficult questions, so I'm glad to see you challenging him with yours:). Looking forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah =========== > > Ok coming back to your post: > > You wrote: > Madhyamaka and Theravada lies in what is meant by "phenomenon". In > Abhidhamma there are two kinds of phenomena: concept and ultimate > reality. A concept is anything such as a book, a cow, a tree, etc. > Djimpa: > Which kind of reference Abhidharma do you use? > I use the Abhidharmakosabhayam, by Vasubandu, translated by Louis La > Valle Pousen & Leom M. Pruden. > Let me ask you one question, is a book not included into the system > of the five khandas? How comes? It is form and compounded of > material subparticles called matter. > > You wrote: > On the other hand, an > ultimate reality, with the exception of nibbana, does arise. > Ultimate > reality is comprised of the 5 khandhas (form, feeling, perception, > volition, and consciousness) > > Djimpa: Does in your school of thought Khanda apply to the body, > mind system of each individual? > Does it mean that the five khandas are a/multiple ultimate(s)? But > how can be something ultimate which is impermanent because of being > compounded? > Does form always stay as form, and never change its outlook? > Does feeling always stay as one state without change? > Does perception remain always the same, (also in your dream). > Does your consciousness has no space for variation and change? > How would you be able to bring about a change on the path towards > nibbana if no space for variation can take place? > On the other hand the ultimate devinition nibbana lacks the five > khandas (the arhat without reminder) which is the ultimate goal in > the Therevada tradition. Isn't it? > How can this system make sense? Because taking you literally, > nibbana and the khandas are one in nature? Or, do you refere to > multiple ultimate natures? > Sorry to bring this up straight forward, it is just for the sake of > discussion. > > You wrote: > Mulamadhyamakakarika that Nagarjuna talks about the khandhas as > including their conditions. In other words, form is not only form > butalso the conditions that form arises in dependence upon > > Djimpa: > Khanda also called Skt. Skandha is just a heap of something, which > doesn't exist and arise out of itself according to the Madyamaka and > the Mind only school. > Skhanda is the fruition of coming into being previous different > activities of body speech and mind and the result of this activity > (karma) is our world compounded of the five skhandas. > Skhanda does include our body and the world we know in this desire > realm. > I don't get you fully if you write, > [form is not only form but also the conditions that form arises in > dependence upon] > If you mean, that form is not something in and out itself, does not > arise out of itself (lack of agent), but dependent, you are right. > (At least in our Madyamaka tradition) > > You wrote: > I think abhidhamma would agree that this combination of factors is > nonarising because it is a concept insofar as being a combination of > factors. > > I don't know from which point you try to explain non-arising? > At least from the Madyamaka point, this is explained little > different. > The point here is not that something is a concept and that's why it > qualifies non-arising, but the fact, that at no point something or > anybody can give rise out of itself as some independent agent. > > Lets see a example of the verse 13 Chapter 6 Madyamakavatara: > When one asserts arising from itself, > the thing to arise, that which makes it arise, the process of > arising and the agent, all > become one. > However they are not identical. Therefore one should not maintain > this view > of an arising from itself, because in doing so the flaws expressed > at length hold true. > > With this verse Chandrakirti explains that a true arising where the > given effect that arises and its cause are identical, would > necessarily imply that everything that is involved in such process > of arising must be one. Whether it's the thing that arises, whether > it’s that which makes it arise whether it's the process of arising > > itself, whether it's the agent involved. If the given effect is said > to be of exactly the same nature as the cause, all these factors > must necessarily be the same as well, and this doesn't work. It's > therefore not appropriate, not right, illogical to maintain such a > view. > > You wrote: > Butabhidhamma pretty much insists on the impermanence of > conditionally arising khandhas as the foundation of all insight. > From abhidhamma's > point of view, Nagarjuna doesn't really analyze form, etc., as it is > understood by them, one consciousness at a time. > > You may help me to get this right? The internal khandas (the rest > with the exception of form?)that is mind and its workings? The > functional part of the mind? > > Can you give me a excursion on the different perspectives of form, > from the Abhidharma point of view? Again, which Abhidharma do you > use as reference standard work? > > With respect sincere Your Djimpa > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 51821 - 51850 of 51881 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Message # Search: Post Message What's This? YAHOO! SPONSOR RESULTS Buddhism Ritual Products: Tibetan Spirit - Tibetan Spirit offers a full selection of Tibetan Buddhism ritual items, statues, paintings, singing bowls, incense, jewelry, rugs and more at low prices. www.tibetanspirit.com Buddhism Teachings & Meditation Insights - Get regular free teachings by E-mail on Buddhism. Deepen your understanding on meditation. No charge. Complimentary E-book containing Buddhist teachings. Get inspiring insights and guidance. www.buddhism-connect.org Zen and Tibetan Buddhism Practices - Meditation practices of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism. Noble truths, attachment and suffering, no-self and other concepts of Buddhism. Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. www.betterbuddha.com Copyright © 2005 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy - Copyright/IP Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail Make Yahoo! your home page Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home - Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Files Photos Links Calendar Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... You can read messages on the group's Web site? Yahoo! 360° Keep connected to your friends and family through blogs, photos and more. Create your own 360° page now. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Post Message View: Simple | Summary | Expanded As: Msg List | Thread 51851 - 51881 of 51881 First | < Previous | Next > | Last Sort by Date 51851 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccariya? sarahprocter... Dear Jean, Welcome to DSG and I hope you're still reading/checking messages. Whereabouts are you studying/living out of interest? --- Jean wrote: > In fact, "Maha-Paccariya" is the title of the ancient Commentary of > Vinaya mentioned in Samantapaasaadikaa. And just as Larry said, I > cannot find the meaning of "Maha-Paccariya" or "paccariya" in the > dictionaries. ... S: I have a little more information to add, though you may have found it all by now: 1. From Malalasekera's 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon', it says that Mahaa-paccarii means 'Great Raft' and was so called 'because it was composed on a raft somewhere in Ceylon'. 2. As you mention, it is one of the texts referred to in the Samantapaasaadikaa, the commentary to the Vinaya, written by Buddhaghosa. Quoting from the same book above, we read: "By the time of the Third Council such commentarial literature had been more or less fully developed; and when, after the conclusion of that Synod, Mahinda came to Ceylon, he brought over with him the expositions of the teaching which had been sanctioned by the Elders at that meeting. Very soon after Mahinda's arrival he translated them into 'the language of the land', and they continued to be studied and pondered upon and further developed by the monks of Ceylon.". At the time when Buddhaghosa arrived,the commentaries had already been put together into treatises and texts. Buddhaghosa himself refers to the explanations chanted at the First Council, re-chanted later and brought by Mahinda to Sri Lanka etc in his introduction to the Atthasalini. These texts are then given in detail as also found in the introduction to Mrs R-D's translation of the Dhammasangani. 3. In Jayawickrama's introduction to his translation of the Baahiranidaana (introduction to the Vinaya commentary)he gives the sources of the Samantapaasaadikaa as referred to by Buddhaghosa, I presume. "The Mahaa or Muula-A.t.thakathaa is achknowledged as the chief source of the Samantapaasaadikaa (39 references), while Mahaapaccarii (94 references), Karundi (67 references), Andhaka (13 references), Sa'nkehepa (9 references)and Paccarii....are extensively consulted." A lot more detail is given, but you're probably already familiar with it. If there's anything else you'd like me to check if you don't have these texts, pls let me know. I hope we hear more from you and about your particular area of research and interest. Metta, Sarah =========== 51852 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditional that bring conditional sarahprocter... Hi Leo, --- leoaive wrote: You ask me about myself. I am living in > California, USA, and at present time, I am MBA student. Beside that,I > am interested in Dhamma/Dharma. It is always gives you good mental > way > that bring happiness. I am familiar with Buddhism long time, maybe 20 > years or so. Now I am 37 y.o. ... S: Thanks for your nice introduction and all your good questions. ... > Buddha was > teaching > Dhamma and Dhamma is big, but at the same time he said to Ananda that > he knows a lot, but some things should be seing first, he does not > see. > That is interesting. I suppose it should be a right condition and > ground for taking it right, just to know it is not the right way as I > understand. What do you think? .... I think the first thing is to understand what Dhamma really means. If we don't understand what is a dhamma now, what can be directly experienced now, we won't be able to understand about conditions. What do you understand by Dhamma or dhamma? When we were in Kusinara recently, the place of the Buddha's parinibbana, I thought of you and your questions about the Parinibbana Sutta and the Buddha being between trees. There are many trees, including Sal trees planted in the area around the simple temple marking the site of the Buddha's parinibbana. But if we took photos of the Buddha's image, the trees would not be seen:). It really is a very special place to visit, as is the nearby cremation site of the Buddha. Our hotel where we stayed was just around the corner, just opened as we arrived. The first time I visited Kusinara, there were no hotels at all, but slowly it's becoming a popular pilgrimage place. The road we travelled along to Kusinara is also meant to be the route the Buddha took (passing by the site where he was given his last meal by Cunda). Very beautiful and surrounded by rice paddies, lotus ponds, teak forests and so on. Still, very remote from any town.... I hope many others have the chance to visit. You also asked about your time schedule and why you cannot find this in the suttas. You wonder what is good for lay people. My comment is that when we develop understanding and confidence in the Buddha's teaching, any schedule is fine. We can work, perform our household duties, study dhamma, develop wisdom and appreciate that meditation or mental development (bhavana) can be right now! The teachings always refer to the present moment and this is not just the Abhidhamma way, but also the sutta and Vinaya way too. Metta, Sarah p.s. Thanks for signing off with your name. Would you also make it clear whom you are addressing in your posts. Thx in advance. ================== 51853 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah,everyone > > Nice to have you back again. > > I feel somewhat responsible for some of the heated exchanges going > on in this group. I feel some of my comments may have been > inappropriate ... ... S: Thx for the welcome back. I don't think any of your comments have been 'inappropriate'. Your long discussion with Ken H (and others?) was very good. These are topics which are very close to our dearest beliefs, so let's not be surprised if there's a bit of heat generated from time to time or take it too seriously. ... > This I feel is the danger here. Or maybe that should this is the > danger of my own mind! ... S: Ah yes, all the dangers are in our own minds! ... > > You mentioned that dhammas cannot be controlled. I would like to > discuss this with you, but only if you would like to. ... S: Happy to anytime....I tend to always have several threads on the go and am often slow in response, but would like to hear more from you. Please start! Metta, Sarah p.s I'll also be replying to James. ======= 51854 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi James (& Matheesha), --- buddhatrue wrote: > I can `control' how much hot water goes into my bath. > I can `control' how often I feed my cat. > I can `control' what time I go to bed. ... S: OK, conventionally speaking, all these are 'controllable' .... > > But > > I cannot control `how' my eyes see light. > I cannot control `how' my ears hear sound. > I cannot control `how' my tongue tastes flavors. > I cannot control `how' my body feels sensations. ... S: Right. No 'I', no control over what dhammas will be experienced next. ... > But, so what? ... S: In truth, there is only 'ultimate' truth. The idea of feeding the cat is a concept based on many different ultimate truths which cannot be controlled. .... This is a non-issue and Sarah is using this fact of > existence in the wrong way. Maybe we can't `control' dhammas, but > we can surely control how and when we post to DSG. That is within > our control. ... S: Yes, we all know what we mean when we say we're going to post or not post to DSG and we use conventional language and meanings all the time for our convenience. At the same time, we can understand that really there are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas - conditioned dhammas arising and passing away. This applies whether we are ignorant worldlings who really believe in being able to control our worlds or whether we are ariyans without any ideas of self or control. Did you read Andrew T's comments on the hatching of the hen's eggs in #51100? I think it's a rather subtle but important point. Metta, Sarah p.s I'll get back to your other kind post polite questions later. Thx for sharing your discussions with Phil and also for the public dog-apology:). Perhaps Phil can help you with an editorial role and you can help him with a courier role:). Seriously, thx to both you and Phil for all your many, many excellent posts in our absence. I think that on the whole they were very restrained and well-considered. ===== 51855 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Thx for responding. > Ph: Well, as you know I am (and I hate to use this word but it?fs true) > a > devotee of listening to the recorded talks, and the dynamic there is > very > much students listening to teacher, even though she is usually called > Kh. > Sujin rather than A. Sujin. There is some questioning of her (I love the > bit when you question her on the ?gnama is more subtle/refined than > rupa?h > bit, or ?gwhen and where is moha?h) but the dynamic is very much > students > listening to teacher, respectfully, no matter whether she thinks of > herself as a teacher or not. ...... S: You’re mostly listening to edited discussions of ‘old hands’ respectfully asking her questions and her full replies. Everything else is mostly cut out:). As I’ve said to you before, if someone were to just read our ‘useful posts’ they’d have no idea there were ever any drama queens or non-respectful posts around the place either, lol. One of the discussions we’re working on is between Erik and K.Sujin. It’s Erik’s first visit to see her. I think it’s very good and very lively. Howard, James and Larry will like it too as he brings up his qus, disagreements and comments from his Mahayana background and is very articulate. I never caught the details, but on the trip, there was one Thai discussion in which a lady from a very different background and with very different views was talking about some aspect of the Vinaya with various people. I expect K.Sujin kept quiet and I doubt it’ll ever appear on anyone’s recording. ... >And it is that dynamic that I am absorbing > these days, so come to the online list with that dynamic in mind. Of > course there is a lot of lobha for that dynamic, and as we know dosa > arises from that lobha, so the dosa I get here is perfectly > understandable. It?fs just a confirmation of the Buddha?fs teaching. I > had > assumed that this group was a kind of extension of the Bangkok group?fs > talks. I will reconsider that. Maybe the home page could be clarified. ... As it says, it’s for discussions of dhammas (realities) as found in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. This is the same when we’re with K.Sujin. No one is ever asked to agree with her or anyone else. Christine was prompted to raise her misgivings on the trip which she ‘d kept quiet about because she thought they might be disrespectful. On the contrary, misgivings, doubts and other viewpoints are welcomed. This is the way they can be addressed and we can help each other better. She may add more. The list is for sharing and helping, not for sending those who have different ideas elsewhere. K.Sujin always encourages us to show patience, to listen to other viewpoints and to help people develop their own understanding, not our understanding, of the teachings. The Dhamma is not ‘in the book’. .... > (there > were a few temper outbursts even in our dhamma group of friends in > India, > in spite of mostly being K.Sujin 'followers:-) > > Ph: Oh my goodness! I hope they were recorded!! .... S: Of course not:-)You've been stressing that you like still, calm waters after all...:/). (Maybe you'd just like the list to be like the edited recordings and the recordings to be like the list with more fireworks and disagreements...lol). ... >As I said to James off > list, I do realize that clinging to still waters is not wise, but to be > perfectly honest I have a hard and busy daily life in a foreign culture > and have plenty of opportunities to develop metta and equanimity and > patience in my daily life. I do cling to the notion of a Dhamma > discussion > that is more placid, I admit it. So am comforted by listening to the > Dhamma talks, in that sense, even as understanding is stimulated by > them. > (And there is irritation too – I still get pissed off every time I hear > people laughing when Azita asks the question about wanting to have more > intellectual understanding about how to recognize the motion rupa) ... S: So whether writing, listening or working, it always comes back to the understanding of the present dhammas. The problem is never ‘out there’. This doesn’t mean there’s any rule about whether we come or go. Whatever way we turn is by conditions after all. There can be awareness when ‘pissed off’ at anytime too. Yes, often I know it would be more ‘peaceful’ or ‘restful’ to go and laze by a pool or meet friends for yum cha than to work on DSG moderator issues or editing jobs or do household chores. Certainly it would be a lot more relaxing to stay home than to go to India! But whichever way we turn, there are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas to be known as I just said in another post. The aim is not to have a quiet life, but to understand present dhammas for what they are. .... > > Sarah: Dhammas are uncontrollable. No one can have visible objects, > sounds, smells, tastes, bodily experiences just as they wish. We forget > about kamma and vipaka and the combination of other conditions all the > time. We think that we can plan and arrange and avoid difficulties. But > it's impossible. > > Phil: Understanding this helps me a lot. When bad things happen in daily > life, just understanding the above intellectually helps so much. I feel > so > grateful for having come to understand this. But, again, there is > special > clinging to expectations about Dhamma discussion. ... S: Any clinging is at the root of our problems and frustrations. On the last evening in Kashmir, Nina told K.Sujin that she was hoping for a dhamma discussion the next morning, her last day. She was given a brief reminder about lobha and told that that was the dhamma discussion:). .... >And, most importantly, > a > lack of time, and a beloved wife who thinks it?fs weird for me to spend > so > much time discussing online .. ... S: Understood:). ... > Phil: I do understand this. See above. But I have my limits. You > wouldn?ft > believe how much energy I pour into my teaching job. Well, yes you > would. > You were/are a teacher too. So I feel a bit selfish here. There are > limits > to how much energy I can pour out to help others. ... S: Actually, your posts were a great help while we were away. I hope you’ll continue with conditions in due course and also raise the areas in which you disagree with K.Sujin. There’s always a limit of time, but not to metta.... .... >As for the points I disagree with, I will > bring them up if they keep coming up and catching my attention. I > thought > of a way to continue participating. I think I will send questions or > comments to people that I hear in the talks, with brief bits of > transcription of the talks. They can share my question/comment and their > response with the group, as well as getting back to me off list. That > way > I can continue to contribute to the group without getting involved in > discussion threads, for the time being at least. ... S: Yes, pls keep asking friends like James to f/w your messages to the group. Whatever works for you.I hope we can sort out any difficulties before Nina returns as your support means a lot to her too. Metta, Sarah ======= 51856 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Delhi or Dubai: 'the most important thing is understanding' sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Sarah: "Joop, hope this isn't too personal for your liking - good to > see you around" > Joop: o, yes, it is, but never mind. One of the things I have learned > in DSG is the power of repetition (about anatta or whatever), so > every x-months I repeat my opinion about another culture and > structure of DSG. ... S: Thx for taking it in good spirit:). I doubt I'd ever be able to follow your systematic approach as I look to address friends and their understandings here, rather than themes or topics as such. .... > > Glad to read again of you, have you noticed that the month the India- > goers were in India, only men posted in DSG? As I said to Azita: > great battles. ... S: Ah, maybe you needed more of those 'personal' touches which don't follow your thematic structures:). .... > Some weeks ago I have been to a retreat in Switzerland (Beatenberg) > with Stephen and Martine Batchelor; the talks of Stephen were about > the life of the Buddha, based on the Pali-canon but not always really > Theravadin: great battle with him too (I said to him I can already > predict the review of Bhikkhu Bodhi about the book based on this > talks: he will not be amused) ... S: I know some of his writings are quite controversial. When we disagree with a friendly attitude, however, we don't have to think in terms of 'battles'. When there's metta, can there be any battle? ... > > A second semi-personal remark of me (!) ... S: Ah, happens to us all at times....like a spreading virus (!) ... : two years ago I was in Sri > Lanka, for three weeks. My intention was to be there as a pilgrim, to > visit the cities that played a role in history of Theravada, > Anaraddapura, Kandy etc. I was the only person who thought I was a > pilgrim, other westerners thought I was a backpacker and the local > Sri Lankan people perceived (and treated) me as a tourist. It was > difficult to resist the power of this perception of others. Perhaps > the fact that I was alone, strengthened this; when visiting with a > group there is a kind of cocoon that protects against it. Did you > experience something like that? (Only the four days in a meditation > centre near Kandy doing 'formal' (I don't like that word) meditation > I felt myself a buddhist, with other westerners) .... S: As I said in another post, I didn't think about others' perceptions and it wouldn't be a concern for me. However, when one is in a large group paying respect at the Holy sites, circling stupas with candles and so on, one is bound to be seen more as part of a group of pilgrims. However, I often go in a different direction to the group, arrive late or wander off. Also, I was often wearing a mask over my mouth because of the dry air and my cough, so I may have just been seen as some kind of wierdo. Why the concern about the others' perceptions or the 'power' of these? .... > > When you are back in Hong Kong I hope to continue our discussion > about the (im)possiblility that Theravada can evolve (at least at > pannatti-level) and why in your eyes Ven. Nyanaponika is wrong when > he thinks it can. ... S: It depends what you (and Ven Nyanaponika) mean about this point. I don't think I said Ven Nyanaponika is wrong. Some of his comments (as in the extracts Hal gave, I think) are very good. Perhaps you can just elaborate on exactly what you understand with regard to Theravada evolving. Then I can tell you whether I agree or not. The Dhamma, the teachings can never evolve. But the language or the presentation should of course be adapted so that anyone with the abilitiy to understand can. Metta, Sarah p.s There are however, some points, like the one B.Bodhi mentioned in his disagreements with Nyanaponika on the 'impermanence of pannatti', which I think N. is quite wrong on. 51857 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:22pm Subject: Because of Not Knowing Form ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Not Knowing the Nature & Cause of Form causes Speculation to arise: At Savatthi the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One & greeted him. Having concluded their compliments, he sat down and asked the Blessed Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause, condition & reason why these various speculative views arise in the world: This Universe is eternal, or This Universe is not eternal. &; This Universe is finite, or This Universe is infinite. &; Vitality & the body are the same, or biological life is one thing, the body is another. &; The Tathagata exists after death, or The Tathagata does not exist after death. Or; The Tathagata both exists & does not exist after death. Or; The Tathagata neither exists, nor does not exist after death ? The Blessed Buddha replied: It is, Vaccha, because of neither knowing form, nor the cause of emergence of form, nor the cause of the ceasing of form, nor the Way to cease form, that those various speculative views, such as: "This Universe is eternal etc...etc..." arise in the world...!!! This ignorance, this not seeing, this not understanding, Vaccha, is the cause, & reason, why those various speculative views arise in this world...!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book III 257-8 The Vacchagotta section 33. Thread on Not Knowing: Aqqana Sutta (1) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 51858 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 0:36am Subject: The murdered monks ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Greetings friend Hal who wrote: >However, I read the Sutta so long ago, that I have forgotten >the name of the one that mentions the deaths of these monks, It is in Vinaya III 68-- Book of Discipline II page 117-ff under the Defeat (Parajika) II rule. They had all been deer-hunters and this evil past kamma turned back on them when ordained... > 265 died over several days ... Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 51859 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions jwromeijn Hallo Djimpa and Larry If you don't mind, I will make some remarks on the questions and statements of Djimpa, as an addition to what Larry has explained. To me discussions between Theravadins and other buddhist traditions are important and are taking place to little. Djimpa: Does form always stay as form, and never change its outlook? Does feeling always stay as one state without change? Does perception remain always the same, (also in your dream). Does your consciousness has no space for variation and change? Joop: I think the way you use the words 'form' etc here, you do as if they are something existing. They don't: it are categories. A specific form exists, disappears and perhaps a (part of a) second later another forms arises. Djimpa: I don't know from which point you try to explain non-arising? At least from the Madyamaka point, this is explained little different. The point here is not that something is a concept and that's why it qualifies non-arising, but the fact, that at no point something or anybody can give rise out of itself as some independent agent. Joop: I think this is a misunderstanding: In Theravada Abhidhamma all dhammas arise with a cause, when and if there are conditions for its arising. Concepts can arise and disappear too, of course; but 'concepts' in fact only exist in the minds of individuals. Your questions are good one, Djimpa, but difficult. May I ask you two questions too: - I know of Nagarjuna and a tradition of ca 1800 years ago with the name Madhyamaka. As far as I know this tradition doesn't exist any more (I mean as a living tradition, with a group practioners in a monastery or another builing). Or am I wrong? Or do you mean the 'Gelukpa' of Tibetan buddhism thagt has used Nagarjuna but made in my opinion a tantric buddhist of him. - Larry has explained about the differentiation between concepts and ultimate relaties. You must know Nagarjuna also talks about two realities or two truth. There is a relation between this two ways of talking about two realities; do you think they are different? Joop 51860 From: "D." Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:53am Subject: The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 Hi Larry Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions in such a detailed manner! Guess, need some time to re-read it and to check the provided sources. Very interisting, since it is so much different from what i learned in the Mahayana school. Takes some time to comprehend the meaning of the content, and i think until i didn't comprehend all terms and definitions clearly it is not fair to borrow your time again for more work to answer all my questions. In short: We learned that all skandhas (khandas) are impermanet and compounded, they are insubstantiel and lack true reality. Even nirvana (nibbhana) mind empty nature, lacks the basis for reality. That is in short the main difference i can see. I hope i didn't caused any disturbens with all of my questions, concerning the different views and concepts about the Buddha Dharma path? With sincere Djimpa 51861 From: "Hal" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:05am Subject: murdered monks or mass suicide? bardosein Ven. Samahita and all, Thank you for the source citation. Below is the article where I first read about the undesirable effects of asubha practices as implied by Ananda's reply to the Buddha's question. That the Buddha later chose to give another teaching, namely, mindfulness of breathing, also suggests a causal relationship between these practises and the deaths of the monks. However, in the passage cited below, Micheal Atwood also discusses the notion of common karma, but, for reasons mentioned below, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi has difficulty accepting this explanation. _Suicide as Response to Suffering_. Michael Atwood: Western Buddhist Review, vol. 4. See: http://tinyurl.com/ajv7e A Case of Mass Suicide Once while staying at Vesaali[27] the Buddha gave a teaching on the foulness of the body, and on the contemplation of the stages of decomposition of a corpse. These are traditional meditation subjects which help to subdue craving for sensual pleasure. Afterwards he goes into seclusion for two weeks. On returning from his retreat he notices that there are far fewer bhikkhus present than before, musing that formerly the park seemed `ablaze with bhikkhus'. When he asks AAnanda about it. AAnanda replies that after the Buddha's teaching the bhikkhus became `repelled, humiliated, and disgusted with this body' and they had committed suicide. The sutta says that as many as thirty bhikkhus took their lives each day. AAnanda, somewhat mildly perhaps, requests that the Buddha give another teaching. The Buddha calls an assembly of all the bhikkhus in the area and teaches them the mindfulness of breathing meditation. There is a curious lack of emotion in this sutta; it seems remote and rather dry in comparison to the case of Channa. Surely if up to thirty bhikkhus a day are committing suicide then it must have made some kind of impact, on AAnanda at least. Did he try to stop them, to reason with them? The sutta doesn't say. Neither does the Buddha condemn the bhikkhus, although he does give a different teaching. He makes no direct reference to the suicides. There is no concern similar to that expressed by Saariputta at hearing Channa's intention to `use the knife'. So what has happened here? Has the Buddha made an error in teaching this meditation to these bhikkhus? The commentary gives the possible explanation that 500 of the bhikkhus were linked by common karma. They had formally been hunters who lived together, and then been reborn together in the hell realms. Later they managed to attain a human birth and were all ordained as bhikkhus. However, some portion of their evil karma remained and the Buddha foresaw that it was about to ripen and bring about their violent deaths through suicide (and homicide). Among the bhikkhus so affected were arahants, non- returners, once returners, stream-entrants and ordinary people. It is said that the arahants achieved final Nibbaana, the non-returners, once-returners and stream entrants were bound for a happy rebirth, but that the ordinary people were bound for an uncertain rebirth. Realising that he could not avert the tragedy, the Buddha is said in the commentary to have taught them about the foulness of the body in order to reduce their fear of death and so make it easier for them to die when the time came. What the commentary seems to be saying is that the Buddha was not extolling death, not encouraging suicide, but trying to mitigate the effects of karmically inevitable suicide by the monks. The translator, Bhikkhu Bodhi, has difficulty in accepting this explanation: `the idea of a karmically predetermined suicide seems difficult to reconcile with the conception of suicide as a "volitionally induced" act'.[28] I also find the commentary's explanation difficult to reconcile with the sutta. If the Buddha knew all along what was happening, why did he need to ask AAnanda? There is another problem with this episode. Why should an arahant, or even a stream entrant, react to the contemplation of death with repulsion, humiliation and disgusted? We would expect an arahant to react with equanimity as, after all, they have been released from all suffering! Compare for example the Buddha's response to the death of his leading disciples, Saariputta and Moggallaana: `It is wonderful bhikkhus, on the part of the Tathaagata, it is amazing on the part of the Tathaagata, that when such a pair of disciples has attained final Nibbaana, there is no sorrow or lamentation in the Tathaagata.'[29] We are left with two problems from this episode: apparent inaction in the face of mass suicide, and a deterministic view of karma. The story is retold in the Vinaya, with an additional small detail, and discussed along with other Vinaya material below. It is difficult to know what to make of the discrepancies between sutta and commentary, and between both and the rest of the Buddhist tradition, but I will return to it in the discussion section later. It is tempting to conclude that this sutta has become garbled in the course of transmission.... Suicide and the Vinaya A frequent pattern in the Vinaya is cases in which a bhikkhu behaves in a certain manner, prompting the Buddha to proscribe that behaviour and institute a rule against it. Many of these rules would have no application in lay life, and are even of dubious ethical significance. Three cases relating to suicide are apposite to this discussion. The first case is the same as `a case of mass suicide' discussed above. The Vinaya version helps to shed light on an aspect of the story which was not covered in the sutta account. The bhikkhus' karma results in both suicide and homicide. In this version we find out that rather than take their own lives, some of the bhikkhus find an unscrupulous man to kill them. Secondly we read about a group of monks who persuade a man to kill himself so that they may seduce his wife! They use the same argument as Prince Paayaasi: that since the man is virtuous he ought to take advantage of this by dying early and thus ensuring a fortunate rebirth. [27]. Connected Discourses op.cit. pp.1773–4. It also occurs in the Vinaya at Vin.III 68–70. [28] Ibid., pp.1951–2. __________________________________ He that is free from anger, who performs his duties faithfully, He that guards the precepts and is free from lust; He that has subdued himself, he that wears the last body-- He it is I call a brahmin (Dhp. 400) 51862 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) philofillet Hi Sarah and all >I hope we can sort out any difficulties before Nina > returns as your support means a lot to her too. No need to extend this mini-drama any longer, though I know *everyone* secretly enjoys mini-dramas. My ego has been sufficiently petted. I've rejoined the group, with revised expectations, no longer thinking of it as a place at which the true Dhamma needs to be defended. The only thing that matters is understanding paramattha dhammas (or khandas etc for the sutta only folks.) Internet discussion is a vaguely helpful condition for that, that's all. We'll see if Phil will be quiet and stay in more of a question asking mode for awhile. And take a little time off until his deadline. Sorry for the dust-storm, all. Phil 51863 From: "D." Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 Hi Joop I don't mind! You are welcome in our club! Indeed, this is a difficult subject and can give rise to many misunderstandings. I know that from my own. To read and to understand something is one thing, to repeat it after in a unmistaken way another challenge. Fair is fair, we have to be tolertant with each other and with different systems and schools, that's what i appreciate in your list. I think it is highly difficult to discuss in its depth anything which deals with the aspect of epistemology. Just in brief: You are wrong if you belief the tradition of Nagarjurna died out. The Gelugpa are one of 4 Tibetan schools who incorporate the Madyamaka system. And there might be more in the far east (China, Japan, Vietnam, India, Nepal and more countries who in one way or the other profit from the historical influence of the Nagarjurna system. I did study this system and other systems in India for a couple of years. And i know a lot of masters who teach, practice and live according to the Nagarjurna Madyamaka. There are many more masters after Nagarjurna, who brought his root text into different interpretion, out came two Madyamaka schools, the Centrist (Pransangika Madyamaka) and the Automist (Svatantrika Madyamaka) There are also other schools of thought within the Mahayana system, for example the Cittamatra system (Mind only school) which are a little bit different from the Madyamikas. Just coming back to the Therevada system. Learning from the correspondance we had with Larry and with your helpful content and hint for any given misunderstandings, i would appreciate any book reference in order to get more about the Therevada system. For what i read i think it is not fair to engage with my little knowledge into any kind of comparison between the two systems. I hear a little bit about the Vaibashikas and a little about the Sautantrika system. So i am not sure if the Therevada incorporate which school of thought of the two, previously there were 16 schools founded corresponding to the 16 Arhat teachers. I hope i didn't get mixed up? Thank you for you meaningful insight, with sincere Djimpa 51864 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) christine_fo... Hello Phil, Yaaaaay! or, to use an identical Australian Expression, "Bloody Bewdy mate!" Translation: [bloody - universal epithet 'the great Australian adjective'. Used to emphasize any point or story. Hence "bloody beauty"(bewdy!) or "bloody horrible" or even "absa-bloody-lutely"! can take the place of 'very' as in 'bloody stupid' or to emphasise the noun to follow....] Nothing surer than that there will be more 'dust storms' occurring, kicked up by any or all of us - depending on conditions .... metta and mudita, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and all > > >I hope we can sort out any difficulties before Nina > > returns as your support means a lot to her too. > > No need to extend this mini-drama any longer, though I know > *everyone* secretly enjoys mini-dramas. My ego has been sufficiently > petted. I've rejoined the group, with revised expectations, no longer > thinking of it as a place at which the true Dhamma needs to be > defended. The only thing that matters is understanding paramattha > dhammas (or khandas etc for the sutta only folks.) Internet discussion > is a vaguely helpful condition for that, that's all. > > We'll see if Phil will be quiet and stay in more of a question > asking mode for awhile. And take a little time off until his deadline. > Sorry for the dust-storm, all. > > Phil > 51865 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/27/05 7:18:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > I've rejoined the group ================== :-) With metta, Howard P.S. You wrote "Sorry for the dust-storm, all." Phil, don't you know that all of us here have but little dust in our eyes?!! ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51866 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:46am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Ken H.: (I know you will avoid the smutty, school-boy innuendoes James resorted to) James: Smutty?? They were rude but I wouldn't say `smutty'. I didn't imply anything sexual! Oh, and thanks for this cheap shot right after my public apology. ;-)) I guess neither of us can bask in the `winner's circle' of politeness. ;-) And, I am a lot younger than Howard- only 36. Hopefully, when I get to Howard's age I will be as diplomatic if not even more. It seems that you and I both have much to learn from Howard. Metta, James 51867 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:09am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Andrew), Sarah: Did you read Andrew T's comments on the hatching of the hen's eggs in #51100? I think it's a rather subtle but important point. James: I read his comments on that sutta but I would like to read the entire sutta to see what the Buddha was referring to. It isn't available online and my AN is packed away. However, I think what Andrew was saying, and which you probably agree with, is along the same lines as this quote from his post: "I have just let my copy of the MN fall open and I have the Cetokhila Sutta in front of me as translated by BB and B. Nanamoli. There is a whole string of passages like "a bhikkhu is not angry and displeased with his companions in the holy life, nor resentful and callous towards them, and thus his mind inclines to ardour, devotion, perseverance, and striving. As his mind inclines to ardour, devotion, perseverance and striving, this fifth wilderness in the heart has been abandoned by him." In this translation, there are no sentences like "a bhikkhu should not be angry and resentful but should be devoted and persistent." But even in the absence of such language, many folk will re-write the passage in those terms and insist that that is the higher meaning. They say: "The meaning is perfectly clear. That's what the Buddha said monks have to do."' James: This is just a matter of translating Pali into English because it is well understood in this passage that "should" is implied. It could read "a bhikkhu should not be angry and resentful but should be devoted and persistent." Of course!! I am incredulous that anyone would think otherwise. But, just to clear it up, let's turn to the Vinaya Pitaka: Should any bhikkhu, malicious, angered, displeased, charge a (fellow) bhikkhu with an unfounded case involving defeat, (thinking), "Surely with this I may bring about his fall from the celibate life," then regardless of whether or not he is cross- examined on a later occasion, if the issue is unfounded and the bhikkhu confesses his anger, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. Should any bhikkhu, malicious, angered, displeased, using as a mere ploy an aspect of an issue that pertains otherwise, charge a bhikkhu with a case involving defeat, (thinking), "Surely with this I may bring about his fall from the celibate life," then regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, if the issue pertains otherwise, an aspect used as a mere ploy, and the bhikkhu confesses his anger, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. Should any bhikkhu agitate for a schism in a Community in concord, or should he persist in taking up an issue conducive to schism, the bhikkhus should admonish him thus: "Do not, Ven. sir, agitate for a schism in a Community in concord or persist in taking up an issue conducive to schism. Let the venerable one be reconciled with the Community, for a Community in concord, on complimentary terms, free from dispute, having a common recitation, dwells in peace." And should those bhikkhus, thus admonished, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to rebuke them up to three times so as to desist. If while being rebuked up to three times by the bhikkhus they desist, that is good. If they do not desist, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/bhikkhu-pati.html#1 James: I have just selected a few translations from the Vinaya Pitaka (spoken by the Lord Buddha) and so far I have counted six `should's. That sounds like the Buddha taught controllable actions to me. ;-)) Metta, James 51868 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:48am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nidive Hi Ken H, > When you say, "99% of those in DSG believe that self is an illusion, > "can we assume the 1% is Swee Boon? As a devotee of Thanissaro, > Swee Boon believes, "the Buddha did not teach no-self." According > to the Thanissaro theory, if we can free our minds from "stress," > we can find our real selves in Nibbana. Does it worry you that those > eternalist beliefs come from meditators who are following the exact > same practices you are following? You are wrong in saying that I am a devotee of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I am a devotee of the Buddha. Did the Buddha teach no-self? No and Yes. No, because he did not DECLARE DIRECTLY that there is no self. Why? If he were to do that, other contemplatives would accuse him of preaching annihilism. Yes, because there is no sixth aggregate other than the five aggregates, and if one realizes with insight through formal practice that the five aggregates are indeed not-self, then the logical conclusion would be 'there is no self'. In fact, it is usually unwise to tell an untrained individual that the Buddha teaches there is no self. It only serves to create more confusion rather than understanding. Therefore, the Buddha teaches no-self in an indirect way through not- self. Rather than confusing his listeners with positions of "self" or "no-self", he teaches them skillfully by telling them to contemplate through formal practice the five aggregates as not-self, and letting them discover the truth of no-self when insight matures. I don't think I shall compare myself with Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Regards, Swee Boon 51869 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and all I've rejoined the group, Glad to hear it!! (But I hope your participation doesn't make you neglect Naomi, as you mentioned in your reply to Sarah. Maybe you could get her to participate some? And I hope you don't neglect your writing. You have some wonderful talent!) Loving-kindness, James 51870 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:12am Subject: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > Now, I want to calmly, without outrageous metaphors and name- > calling, explain my concern about KS and her followers. Every > person who practices formal meditation is going to experience > doubt. The Buddha taught that doubt is one of the five hindrances > and everyone, without exception, will experience doubt about the > meditation practice itself. What I see, and I could be wrong, is > that KS speaks to this doubt in people and tells them that their > doubt is justified because meditation isn't necessary. Someone who > is confused, upset, and weary with their meditation practice is > going to love this kind of answer and really attach to the speaker. > ... > Does KS acknowledge that not everyone has the capability to be "dry > insight" workers and that some people need to meditate? > > Does her "Foundation for Dhamma-Study" have a meditation hall for > those who wish to practice meditation along with their dhamma study? > > Give these issues some thought and get back to me. I hope that I > have been nice in this post and have explained my concerns in a > understandable manner. > > Metta, > James > Dear James, Sarah, all As far as I have followed this dynamic thread, Sarah is still giving thought. And it's one of the most central discussion-themes of DSG this months. My question is if there is not also a historical dimension. I have read that - let's say - fifty years ago hardly any layperson in Sri Lanka or Thailand did (formal) meditate. And hundred years ago no layperson in Burma did. It was a monkish practice and even a part 0of the monks did it, the rest did reading the Dhamma and (much) ritual like chanting. Not only Sujin, also Buddhaghosa is the central person in -let's say it nice - the mind of the founders of DSG. I think Buddhaghosa did not meditate. He was studying Dhamma. And he had no time for it, in the years he was in Sri Lanka, coming from India he had to learn Singalese, read an enormous amount of Singalese commentaries, translate and systematise them. And then had written an enormous amount of texts. You know I do (formal, as an anarchist I hate that word) meditation but it's rather new, especially for laypersons doing it. And the popularity of Sujin is - in my theory - a reaction to modernity, to globalisation. Not keeping this dimension in mind makes discussions about this theme elusive Metta Joop 51871 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:14am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) matheesha333 KH: After that earth- > > >shattering intellectual realisation, how could there be any > > continued > > >interest in formal practice? Why should there be? Eventually, it leads to disinterest (disillusionment) with everything > > apart from Nibbana, does it not? M:I just wanted to respond to this. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining? dwells restrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were to dwell unrestrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty do not arise for him when he dwells restrained with the restraint of the eye-faculty. And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by using?...... And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating?....... And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding?......... And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will... Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of cruelty... And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing. MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta M: As you can see from the above, there those fetters which can be abandoned by Seeing. These are the fetters which are broken at the attainment of the sothapanna stage. As we know craving, and aversion are abandoned at higher stages of the path. These are abandoned in other ways and not seeing, because just seeing impermanance once is not going wipe these out of existence. A sothapanna has seen impermanance but still has craving and aversion until he becomes an anagamin. He goes about his day to day work, but 'like a cow grazing in a field, also keeps an eye out for the calf' (from the suttas) -is very much aware of the fallacy of what he is doing, and keeps an eye out for the path, the more work that he has to do, but defilements still persist including large chunks of avijja whichi is lost completely at the arahath stage as a fetter. The suttas say that his sila is complete, but his samadhi and panna are not. 3. Ugghañita¤¤åsuttaü - Flashing knowledge. 014.03. Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. What four? The one with a flashing insight, the one with established knowledge, the one to be led along and the one who is limited to the word. Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. M: The differentiation with flashing knowledge and established knowledge is interesting here. Just because there was a glimpse of the truths, it doesnt change one's thinking patterns completely. That takes further continued prolonged exposure to the truths ie formal practice which gave rise to insight in the first place. Even though a sotapanna has no self view a remainder of self in his thinking continues, as seen in a sutta which i cant find right now. So the erradication of this from his thinking takes more practice. Just because one has seen with direct experiencing, that all is nama rpua and hethu phala, belonging to the three charcteristics one's thinking doesnt immediately drop all use of conventional terms because those are ingrained like a stain. they need to persistantly rubbed out. It is no surprise that the word Sekha (trainee) is used only after one becomes a sotapanna, because that is when the hard grind is. 9. Pañhamavasasuttaü- First on wielding power. 004.09. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu endowed with seven things wields power over the mind, his mind does not wield power over him; what seven? Here, the bhikkhu is clever in concentration, clever in attainments of concentration, clever in enduring in concentration, clever in rising from concentrations, is clever in seeing the benefits of concentration, is clever in pasture for concentrations, is clever in throwing out in concentrations. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu endowed with these seven things wields power over the mind, the mind does not wield power over him. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara4/7-sattakanipata/004-devatavaggo-e.htm I wanted to leave you with that. It is formal practice as you an see. This is the mastery of jhaana and I know hundreds of people who can do this. Wihtout this type of practice your chances of rubbing out defilements are severly in doubt. metta Matheesha 51872 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:44am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) matheesha333 Hi Sarah, James and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (& Matheesha), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > I can `control' how much hot water goes into my bath. > > I can `control' how often I feed my cat. > > I can `control' what time I go to bed. > ... > S: OK, conventionally speaking, all these are 'controllable' > .... > > > > But > > > > I cannot control `how' my eyes see light. > > I cannot control `how' my ears hear sound. > > I cannot control `how' my tongue tastes flavors. > > I cannot control `how' my body feels sensations. > ... > S: Right. No 'I', no control over what dhammas will be experienced next. > ... > > But, so what? > ... > S: In truth, there is only 'ultimate' truth. The idea of feeding the cat > is a concept based on many different ultimate truths which cannot be > controlled. > .... > > This is a non-issue and Sarah is using this fact of > > existence in the wrong way. Maybe we can't `control' dhammas, but > > we can surely control how and when we post to DSG. That is within > > our control. > ... > S: Yes, we all know what we mean when we say we're going to post or not > post to DSG and we use conventional language and meanings all the time for > our convenience. At the same time, we can understand that really there are > only cittas, cetasikas and rupas - conditioned dhammas arising and passing > away. This applies whether we are ignorant worldlings who really believe > in being able to control our worlds or whether we are ariyans without any > ideas of self or control. M: I think we all agree upto this point. S: Did you read Andrew T's comments on the hatching > of the hen's eggs in #51100? I think it's a rather subtle but important > point. M: I'm not a hen, nor do I have to be limited to a Hen's conventional understanding! Regardless, if we assume that the hen did have some paramatta understanding and decided not to sit, based on that understanding, no chicks would hatch. This is exaclty what KS followers seem to be doing. Not sit. :) Or to put it in another way, why is formal meditation the only thing you arnt doing, in the name of panna. How about stopping doing all forms of intentioned actions so that the conditions for pure insight would be optimum? To take it a step further, if there was complete understanding of conditions, there would also be understanding that inentioned actions (in the conventional sense of course) are hardly a threat to panna, as intentions/cetana are conditioned anyway, we know that, so whats the big deal? This conflict simply wouldnt exist. metta Matheesha 51873 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:18am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment jwromeijn Hallo Htoo Naing Thanks for your answers. Most of it is clear and helpful, and no reason for further discussion. But your comment on my sutta-quotes was to diffucult to me, possibly because of the way of linking between the discursive langguage of the sutta and the abhidhammic (nearly mathematical) language in your comment, rich of pali-words. For example: the Buddha did not make the differentiation rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana in this stutta-quote. I just read first jhana --> path to awakening. Can you explain a bit more easy? Metta Joop 51875 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:02pm Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) mlnease Hi Mateesha, ----- Original Message ----- From: "matheesha" To: Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:14 AM Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) >> I wanted to leave you with that. It is formal practice as you an >> see. This is the mastery of jhaana and I know hundreds of people who >> can do this. If in fact you know hundreds of bhikkhus (the Buddha is discussing bhikkhus here) who are jhaana masters you are in a very fortunate position and I confess I envy you, even knowing that envy is wrong. It should be easy for you to leave home and master jhaana under their tutelage on your way to unbinding and I wish you well. I would be interested in knowing how you are able to guage the attainments even of one, never mind hundreds--but I'll take your word for it at least for the sake of this discussion. >> Wihtout this type of practice your chances of rubbing >> out defilements are severly in doubt. I am not one of those who question the existence of formal meditation in the Buddha's day, or that he taught it to bhikkhus. Whether effective instruction in formal meditation is still an option today is another question that has been debated here before and I'd rather not reopen that (or any other) debate. Maybe I misunderstood the points you took from your lengthy citations, but are you suggesting that they state or imply that jhaana mastery is a prerequisite to the eradication of the defilements? I would be interested in any citations from the suttas that expressly state that mastery of jhaana eradicates defilements, or is necessary for the insight which does so. If mastery of jhaana (rather than at least momentary access concentration) is necessary for the eradication of defilements, how can one account for the many accounts in the suttas of laypeople who attained the paths simply on hearing one discourse? Do you think they were all lay jhaana masters? Thanks In Advance, mike p.s. By the way, it's my personal opinion that the cultivation of calm and concentration by laypeople are fine things to do, at least for the purposes of a peaceful abiding here and now and for favorable rebirths. These two latter purposes can be conducive to the Goal but are not necessarily so, I think--and unless I'm mistaken, in themselves they only suppress the defilements rather than eradicating them. If you're aware of any direct refutations of this conclusion from the suttas, I'd be most grateful to learn of them. 51876 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:57pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Mateesha, Hi Mike (and Mateesha), Mike: how can one account for the many accounts in the suttas of laypeople who attained the paths simply on hearing one discourse? James: Those are truly amazing stories and those laypeople probably had the right accumulations (which I don't believe included panna, but maybe advanced discernment and mental tranquility?). Those were truly fortunate people and we should be happy for them. But I have a question for you to consider: Has that happened to you yet? If it hasn't happened to you, and I will assume it hasn't, then why are you emphasizing these instances? Do you hope it will happen to you? Since it hasn't happened to you yet, and you have probably read several dozen suttas at least, then wouldn't it be prudent to develop a new plan of action? Just offering you something to consider, not trying to debate or embarrass. Metta, James 51877 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear James, Sarah, all > > As far as I have followed this dynamic thread, Sarah is still giving > thought. And it's one of the most central discussion-themes of DSG > this months. > My question is if there is not also a historical dimension. Thank you for this well-considered input. I won't comment as yet as I am waiting for Sarah's reply, and then we can consider the historical dimensions to Buddhaghosa and the social dimensions to KS. Metta, James ps. Phil and All, btw, I don't refer to K. Sujin as A. Sujin like some do because she isn't a nun. I was taught that only nuns, and then only nuns of very high order, should be referred to as Ajahn (Teacher). That is just my conditioning through years at my Thai Buddhist temple, Wat Promkunaram, and is not meant as disrespect. (I believe I discussed this before at lenght with Sarah and she said that KS doesn't care if one calls her 'Ajahn' or not.) 51878 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:32pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Again Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > > > Hi Mateesha, > Hi Mike (and Mateesha), > > Mike: how can one account for the many accounts in the suttas of > laypeople who attained the paths simply on hearing one discourse? > > James: Those are truly amazing stories and those laypeople probably > had the right accumulations (which I don't believe included panna, > but maybe advanced discernment and mental tranquility?). Those were > truly fortunate people and we should be happy for them. But I have > a question for you to consider: Has that happened to you yet? If it > hasn't happened to you, and I will assume it hasn't, then why are > you emphasizing these instances? Do you hope it will happen to you? > > Since it hasn't happened to you yet, and you have probably read > several dozen suttas at least, then wouldn't it be prudent to > develop a new plan of action? Just offering you something to > consider, not trying to debate or embarrass. > > Metta, > James > I just thought of a funny story that I could share along these lines. There was once a visiting Mahayana monk to my temple, Wat Promkunaram, for a Buddhist holiday. He was given a very nice introduction by the Abbot and the Vice-Abbot of the temple to a large crowd of people. They spoke about what a great monk he was, how wise he was, and how much he had done for the Thai and Chinese/Laos/Vietnamese communities. When it came to his turn to speak he said, "I have been given such a nice introduction, but I have to tell you all the truth. I am not such a good monk. Actually, I am a terrible monk! You know, there were some people in the Buddha's time who would listen to one discourse from the Buddha and become enlightened. All they had to do was listen to one discourse! Here, I have been a monk for over thirty years and I'm not enlightened yet!!" Everyone laughed. Metta, James 51879 From: "D." Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Djimpa, > > I'm not attempting to answer any of your questions here, but just wish to > welcome you to the list. Hi Sarah Thank you very much! I didn't belief to come that quick into your group process yahoo list? Amazing,... S: May I ask where you live? Do you come from India? As you'll have noticed, several of us have just returned from a trip to India and the Holy Places. What do you mean by, do i come from India? Of course i come from India, but i use to have my home in Germany. Normaly i go every year to India, Bodhgaya, Delhi, Varanasi Dera Dun, Kalingpong, Darjeeling and to Katmandu in Nepal. Since i did study in Delhi the semester holidays i used to travel by train to the holy spots, our shedra did closed down now for some new constructions and renovations, i did find a new address where i can continual. A new and fine address in Nepal near the Boudha circle, kind of Buddhist college, Buddhist philosophy and eppistemology advanced studies. I have some private address where i can stay and all my belongings from India i brought to Nepal via bus over land, what a challenge. 36 hours bus driving with only one stop for 6 hours for resting in a hotel. It was also quite risky, considering the war between the maoist rebels who fight the royal system and armee of Nepal. A lot of machine-gun fire, on the way i saw all the burned our busses which came into gun fire by the maoist rebels. Just came back this year end of March, from Nepal and India. My little stay now in Germany feels like being here for years again. I am became a gypsy during all the last years of my travels, ready to go to the east, but this winter i have to make money and will stay until next summer. Djimpa 51880 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and Andrew), > > Sarah: Did you read Andrew T's comments on the hatching of the hen's > eggs in #51100? I think it's a rather subtle but important point. > [snip] > James: This is just a matter of translating Pali into English > because it is well understood in this passage that "should" is > implied. It could read "a bhikkhu should not be angry and resentful > but should be devoted and persistent." Of course!! I am > incredulous that anyone would think otherwise. Hi Sarah and James James, thanks for illustrating my (limited) point so forcefully and promptly i.e. regardless of the language used, many people will read in "shoulds" as a matter of course. I know you think you are doing the correct thing and I don't want to debate that. I'm just trying to clarify the overall framework a little. Perhaps it might help to draw an analogy with Christianity. Mainstream Christianity reads the New Testament as history. Many scholars have argued, however, that it is all allegory. They say it is folly to impose historicity on the mythical. In Buddhism, perhaps we can say there is a divide between those who read Dhamma as a shopping list of things to be done and those who read it as a description of reality to be understood. People with the former inclination read in "shoulds"; people with the latter read them out. Which is right? We all have to decide that for ourselves. But it helps me to know where people are starting from. Starting premises are so very crucial - bad ones can invalidate whole mountains of subsequent work (theology and jurisprudence prove this over and over again IMO). Sarah, glad to have you back safe and sound - the trippers are, of course, the "adventure heroes" of DSG!! (-: Look forward to hearing the recorded discussions (still working my way through the last ones you gave me). Best wishes Andrew T 51881 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions mlnease Hi Djimpa, Nice to meet you! More below: ----- Original Message ----- From: "D." To: Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions > A new and fine address in Nepal near the Boudha circle, kind of > Buddhist college, Buddhist philosophy and eppistemology advanced studies. I'd like to hear more about Buddhist epistemology-- > It was also quite risky, considering the war between the maoist rebels > who fight the royal system and armee of Nepal. A lot of machine-gun > fire, on the way i saw all the burned our busses which came into gun > fire by the maoist rebels. Yes, I've heard--glad you made it. I was in Rangoon under similar circumstances--'88? '89? I forget--though I was safe within a monastic compound. > Just came back this year end of March, from > Nepal and India. > My little stay now in Germany feels like being here for years again. > I am became a gypsy during all the last years of my travels, ready to > go to the east, but this winter i have to make money and will stay > until next summer. Looking forward to more. mike 51882 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) kenhowardau Hi James (and Howard), We all have our own writing styles and means of expression. I tend to write in a matter-of-fact style that relies on the reader not to take offence. I hope this style will improve in time and become less centred on what is easy for me and more centred on what is good for the reader. I have always noticed that Sarah, for example, can apologise even when she is not in the wrong. I find it hard to apologise even when I am in the wrong. I just continue in my matter-of-fact style, hoping the reader will see an implied apology. I wrote to Howard: ---- > (I know you will avoid the smutty, school-boy innuendoes James resorted to) ---- OK, I could have left that out, but why should I feel obliged to leave it out? You wrote the smutty, schoolboy innuendoes, and I chose to refer to them in passing. That was at least better than an angry, abusive, response-in-kind. --------------------- James: > Smutty?? They were rude but I wouldn't say `smutty'. I didn't imply anything sexual! ---------------------- There is your selective memory at work again. You had suggested to me that I was unhappy in my meditation days. I denied that, and gave a brief summary of my former practice. You satirised that practice, likening it to a sexual activity of some kind. The word 'orgasm' was used, and there was even reference to a cigarette afterwards. Now do you remember? ------------------------------------ J: > Oh, and thanks for this cheap shot right after my public apology. ;-)) I guess neither of us can bask in the `winner's circle' of politeness. ;-) ----------------------------------- I realise you are being good natured and matter-of-fact on this occasion, but I might take the opportunity to have a grumble anyway. (I hope you won't mind.) This is always the way it happens: you write something crude and unacceptable, somebody offers a mild rebuke, and the focus is suddenly placed on that other somebody - 'What a mean thing to say!' 'It makes James think about leaving DSG!' 'Oh no, James, please don't go! Don't take any notice of that naughty man!' I might add here that I am one of those who don't want you to leave. A fiery character like you (the John Mc Enroe of Dhamma discussion) is a great asset to the group. If we can't deal with occasional provocation in Buddhist internet cyberspace, how will we ever deal with it out on the streets? ----------------- J: > And, I am a lot younger than Howard- only 36. Hopefully, when I get to Howard's age I will be as diplomatic if not even more. It seems that you and I both have much to learn from Howard. ------------------ Well, yes, but Howard is no angel. On several occasions he has been pushed over the edge by my negative attitude towards meditation. But he readily apologises for any excesses, and that is something I should learn from him. Generally, he and I get along very well considering our widely differing points of view. It seems to me that we both employ the matter-of-fact style of writing that relies, to some extent, on the other person not to take offence. Ken H 51883 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:10pm Subject: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self philofillet Hi all I was really impressed by this sutta this morning. Ananda is asked if it is possible to explain that "for such a reason this consciousness is not self." He answers "it is possible, friend Udayi. Doesn't eye- consciousness arise in dependence on eye and forms?...If the cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness would cease completely and totally without remainder, could eye-consciousness be discerned?..In this eay, friend, this had been declared, disclosed and revealed by the Blessed one thus: 'For such a reason this consciousness is not self." And of course, this is repeated for the other sense consciousnesses, to demonstrate that they are dependent on the inner and external ayatanas (sense bases), eye and form, ear and sound, and so on. I sat and meditated (concentrated my thoughts on, just thinking, not satipatthana) on the implications of this. All the time we are seeing people and things, we think we are seeing, but while there are moments of seeing visible object mixed in there, it is mostly thinking, thinking, thinking. (When we see people, we are thinking, not seeing.) And if we go deeper, in line with this sutta, even the seeing which we are almost always (just plain always?) unaware of is also conditioned and not self, conditioned by the meeting of two kinds of rupa (for example, eye and forms) which arise in a conditioned way. Wow! All of this is going on so fast. I think there has been discussion here about whether we can control what we see, or not, but in my opinion, from my shallow understanding of it, this sutta makes it pretty clear that there is no controlling what we see, it is all conditions at work. Which doesn't mean that we are robots with no way of controlling what we see in daily life - of course we can close our eyes, etc, take them away from unwholesome objects. But even that is due to conditions at work. For some reason, I find this sort of thing very liberating. In one of the talks, Nina says that it is hard to find talk of liberation taking aeons and aeons to be encouraging and A. Sujin says that it is so for the one with panna. Perhaps this is also the case for one who finds the idea of no control to be liberating. OH MY GOD! Did I just prove I am one with panna!!!??? Yipee!!! Phil 51884 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Aeons and aeons ( was - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self) philofillet Hi again all I wrote : > Nina says that it is hard to find talk of liberation > taking aeons and aeons to be encouraging and A. Sujin says that it > is so for the one with panna. Correction - I think Nina says "it is hard to be encouraged by 'aeons and aeons'" - no one ever says it *will* take aeons and aeons. But the talk of aeons and aeons that appears again and again in the discourses, referring to the aeons and aeons that we have come through, conditions patience, in my opinion. Others would say it conditions samvega, a sense of urgency, to get on with it and be done with this timeless wandering. I can see their point. It can condition both, I guess. Phil 51885 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions lbidd2 Djimpa: "Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions in such a detailed manner! Guess, need some time to re-read it and to check the provided sources." Hi Djimpa, I agree. It's a good idea to read the sources. They can be rather complicated so feel free to ask a question any time. Larry 51886 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:59pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon, I am very glad to know I was wrong about you - thinking you were connected with Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Thank you for not taking offence. Provided we acknowledge the absolute truth of the anatta doctrine, we cannot go far wrong. TB teaches that anatta is just a technique for calming the mind, and, in my opinion, he is going very far wrong indeed. -------------------------- <. . .> SB: > In fact, it is usually unwise to tell an untrained individual that the Buddha teaches there is no self. It only serves to create more confusion rather than understanding. --------------------------- I can think of very few examples in which it might be unwise. Perhaps if a person was mentally unstable and couldn't cope with hearing the truth . . .? ------------------------------------------ SB: > Therefore, the Buddha teaches no-self in an indirect way through not-self. Rather than confusing his listeners with positions of "self" or "no-self", he teaches them skillfully by telling them to contemplate through formal practice the five aggregates as not-self, and letting them discover the truth of no-self when insight matures. ------------------------------------------ Because there is no self (and there are only dhammas) the Buddha could not possibly have told anybody to do anything in order to develop insight. Although I will admit, it does look that way whenever we forget there are only dhammas. The teaching is always to know the present reality. If there is seeing now, then that can be known as a conditioned nama (conditioned by past kamma etc.). If there is insight now, then that can be known as a conditioned nama (conditioned by wise consideration of anatta etc.). But we have had these discussions. When Robert K demonstrated how, according to the texts, right understanding (not right concentration) was the forerunner, you seemed to accept the point, but, at the same time refuse to let it influence you. I might have misunderstood, but you have also expressed the opinion that some parts of the texts should be ignored if they interfere with formal meditation. I hope you will forgive my saying so, but that is a Thanissaro teaching, and it is given as the main reason why there is no Abhidhamma to be found at "Access To Insight." But I won't argue. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > > ... > > You are wrong in saying that I am a devotee of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I > am a devotee of the Buddha. > > Did the Buddha teach no-self? No and Yes. 51887 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Andrew, Andrew: James, thanks for illustrating my (limited) point so forcefully and promptly i.e. regardless of the language used, many people will read in "shoulds" as a matter of course. James: Hope it wasn't too forceful. ;-)) This isn't a `limited' point, it is a valid point and one which should be seriously considered. I discussed this point with Jon once, who also reads the suttas in the manner that you do. It is somewhat `odd' or `stilted' the manner in which the Buddha describes certain things in the suttas- in the manner of "this is the fact of what is happening" rather than "this is what should happen". Why is that? Frankly, I don't believe it is because of the reason you propose: that he is just describing reality rather than proposing actions to be taken. I believe it is because he is speaking from his point-of- view. An enlightened person, especially an enlightened Buddha, doesn't think in terms of `should's, because he has already accomplished what should be accomplished. Only the unenlightened think in terms of `should's, "I should do this and I should do that." There is a sutta, quoted recently on DSG, where a deva is talking to the Buddha about how difficult the practice is, how hard it is, and the Buddha simply replies with, to paraphrase, "Even though it is difficult there are those who do it." Now, that doesn't sound like a person who is going to be saying "you SHOULD do this and you SHOULD do that"-- he just expects it to be done. Where you will see the Buddha giving instructions about what should and should not be done is in the Vinaya Pitaka. Andrew, I gave those quotes from the Vinaya and you didn't respond to them at all. Why did you gloss them over? Do you have `mental blinders' on in regards to the Vinaya Pitaka? (not attacking, just giving you something to consider). I keep reading here on DSG about how if one reads the suttas with the help of the commentaries and the Abhidhamma, their true meaning will come out? Whatever happened to the Vinaya Pitaka??? I believe that one must consider ALL three baskets of the Tipitaka to really understand the Buddha's message. Andrew: Perhaps it might help to draw an analogy with Christianity. Mainstream Christianity reads the New Testament as history. Many scholars have argued, however, that it is all allegory. James: From my studies of the New Testament and Old Testament in college (`Bible as Literature' Undergrad course) I would say that it has elements of both. Andrew: In Buddhism, perhaps we can say there is a divide between those who read Dhamma as a shopping list of things to be done and those who read it as a description of reality to be understood. James: A gentle observation, I don't like the metaphor of "shopping list" in your description. To me, it belittles the Buddha's teaching. Andrew: People with the former inclination read in "shoulds"; people with the latter read them out. Which is right? We all have to decide that for ourselves. James: Yes, we all have to decide for ourselves. I hope I have sufficiently explained why I believe "should" is usually implied in the suttas. But, if not, feel free to ask any additional questions. Metta, James 51888 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 0:34am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James (and Howard), > > We all have our own writing styles and means of expression. I tend to > write in a matter-of-fact style that relies on the reader not to take > offence. I hope this style will improve in time and become less > centred on what is easy for me and more centred on what is good for > the reader. James: Thank you for the explanation. I will try to keep that in mind for now on when I read your posts. > > I have always noticed that Sarah, for example, can apologise even > when she is not in the wrong. James: Yes, she is such a sweetheart! :-) I find it hard to apologise even when I > am in the wrong. I just continue in my matter-of-fact style, hoping > the reader will see an implied apology. James: There are many like that. The fellow teacher who treated me so badly before the summer now acts like absolutely nothing happens. But she goes out of her way to be nice to me. I know that is her way of apologizing. I take a more direct route but everyone is different. > > I wrote to Howard: > ---- > > (I know you will avoid the smutty, school-boy innuendoes > James resorted to) > ---- > > OK, I could have left that out, but why should I feel obliged to > leave it out? You wrote the smutty, schoolboy innuendoes, and I > chose to refer to them in passing. That was at least better than an > angry, abusive, response-in-kind. James: Okay. But I think it is better to address what bothers you right when it bothers you rather than keep it bottled up inside. Then you will hold grudges against me and they will come out at unexpected times- like your comment to Howard 'out-of-the-blue'. But, really, you handle things the way you want and I will just remember. > > --------------------- > James: > Smutty?? They were rude but I wouldn't say `smutty'. I > didn't imply anything sexual! > ---------------------- > > There is your selective memory at work again. You had suggested to me > that I was unhappy in my meditation days. I denied that, and gave a > brief summary of my former practice. You satirised that practice, > likening it to a sexual activity of some kind. The word 'orgasm' was > used, and there was even reference to a cigarette afterwards. Now do > you remember? James: Oh yes, now I remember! Gosh, that was a long time ago!! You are still holding onto that comment since now? You should have addressed it with me then and we could have ironed it out. Really, I wasn't trying to attack you, I was just trying to be funny. But, I often don't know what is appropriate humor and what is inappropriate- which is related to my backgroud. (I will explain more below since you were so kind as to explain yourself). > > ------------------------------------ > J: > Oh, and thanks for this cheap shot right after my public > apology. ;-)) I guess neither of us can bask in the `winner's circle' > of politeness. ;-) > ----------------------------------- > > I realise you are being good natured and matter-of-fact on this > occasion, but I might take the opportunity to have a grumble anyway. > (I hope you won't mind.) James: No, of course I don't mind! Like I wrote to you before, I appreciate it when you share your real feelings with me. > > This is always the way it happens: you write something crude and > unacceptable, somebody offers a mild rebuke, and the focus is > suddenly placed on that other somebody - 'What a mean thing to > say!' 'It makes James think about leaving DSG!' 'Oh no, James, please > don't go! Don't take any notice of that naughty man!' James: Hmmm...there are some deeper issues at play here. I'm not going to comment. I would just suggest that you reflect on this line of thinking. > > I might add here that I am one of those who don't want you to leave. James: Thank you. I wasn't planning on leaving anytime soon. I like it here and I like my friends here. > A fiery character like you (the John Mc Enroe of Dhamma discussion) > is a great asset to the group. If we can't deal with occasional > provocation in Buddhist internet cyberspace, how will we ever deal > with it out on the streets? James: You say a truth here, and it is bitter medicine. I am like a "John McEnroe of Dhamma discussion", easily angry and easily offended. Why am I like that? Well, since you have shared I will share some information about myself. And it isn't to make you feel sorry for me, just to help you understand me a bit more. Me and my brother were abandoned by our natural mother at a young age. While my father was in the hospital, she just left us with relatives and took off. My father re-married an extremely abusive, angry, alcoholic. I had to put up with constant verbal abuse while growing up, while my father stayed emotionally distant (he has his own bad history). My brother couldn't handle the pressure- he turned to illegal drugs and subsequently died. My half sister couldn't handle the pressure- she turned to prescription medications and subsequently died. As a consequence of this horrible upbringing, I have some problems with low-self esteem and anger (as if you didn't notice! ;-)). I am working on them though. I read something last night which gives me hope: "The protection of paritta works both subjectively and objectively. Subjectively, as metta cleanses and strengthens the mind, it also awakens the dormant potentials, resulting in the spiritual transmutation of the personality. Transformed by metta, the mind is no longer haunted by greed, hatred, lust, jealousy and those other mind-polluting factors which are one's real enemy and source of misfortune." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel365.html So, I am going to really focus on using metta as my vehicle to transform my personality. You may be disappointed because I won't be the 'John McEnroy' of this group anymore. ;-)) > > ----------------- > J: > And, I am a lot younger than Howard- only 36. Hopefully, when I > get to Howard's age I will be as diplomatic if not even more. It > seems that you and I both have much to learn from Howard. > ------------------ > > Well, yes, but Howard is no angel. On several occasions he has been > pushed over the edge by my negative attitude towards meditation. But > he readily apologises for any excesses, and that is something I > should learn from him. Generally, he and I get along very well > considering our widely differing points of view. It seems to me that > we both employ the matter-of-fact style of writing that relies, to > some extent, on the other person not to take offence. James: Yes, Howard isn't perfect, but I still feel I have a lot to learn from him. And I have a lot to learn from you. I have much to learn in this group so I continue hanging in there. ;-) > > Ken H > Metta, James 51889 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 0:44am Subject: Because of Not Examining ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Not Examining the Five Clusters of Clinging causes Assumption to arise: At Savatthi the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One & greeted him. Having concluded their compliments, he sat down aside & asked the Blessed Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause, condition & reason, why these various speculative views arise in the world: This Universe is eternal, or This Universe is not eternal. &; This Universe is finite, or This Universe is infinite. Vitality & the body are the same, or biological life is one thing, the body is another. The Tathagata exists after death, or The Tathagata does not exist after death. The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death. Or; The Tathagata neither exists, nor does not exist after death ? The Blessed Buddha then replied: It is, Vaccha, because of neither Knowing form, nor feeling, perception, nor mental construction, nor consciousness, nor the Cause of Origin of form, feeling, perception, mental construction, & consciousness, nor the Cause of the Cessation of form, feeling, perception, mental construction, & consciousness, nor the Way to Cease form, feeling, perception, mental construction, & consciousness, that these various speculative views, such as: "This Universe is eternal, finite etc. etc." arise in the world...!!! This ignorance, this not seeing, this not understanding, this not fully knowing, this not breaking through, this not comprehending, this not penetrating, this not discerning, this not discriminating, this not differentiating, this not closely investigating, this not directly realizing, friend Vaccha, is the cause, & reason, why those various speculative views arise in this world!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book III 257-263 The Vacchagotta section 33. Threads on Not Knowing: Aqqana Sutta (1-55) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 51890 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:17am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 294 Aversion-dosa (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] The proximate cause of dosa are “grounds for annoyance, like urine mixed with poison”. Urine mixed with poison is not liked by anybody, although urine was taken as a medicine in India. It is useful to study the proximate cause of dosa, the “grounds for annoyance”. Dosa often arises on account of what others are doing or saying to us or to someone else. Even a good deed done to someone else can be a reason for annoyance if we dislike that person. We read in the Book of Analysis (Chapter 17, §960) about nine reasons for dosa: * "Therein what are “nine bases of vexation”? “He has done me harm”, thus vexation arises; “He is doing me harm”, thus vexation arises; “He will do me harm”, thus vexation arises; “He has done harm, …he is doing harm, …he will do harm to one dear and pleasant to me”, thus vexation arises; “He has done good, …he is doing good, …he will do good to one not dear and not pleasant to me”, thus vexation arises. These are nine bases of vexation." * *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 6. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 51891 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:35am Subject: The future of Theravada (was: Delhi or Dubai jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, .... Reactie op 51856 The future of (Theravada-)Buddhism (Was: Delhi Dear Sarah, and all Joop (a week ago): When you are back in Hong Kong I hope to continue our discussion about the (im)possiblility that Theravada can evolve (at least at pannatti-level) and why in your eyes Ven. Nyanaponika is wrong when he thinks it can. Sarah: It depends what you (and Ven Nyanaponika) mean about this point. I don't think I said Ven Nyanaponika is wrong. Some of his comments (as in the extracts Hal gave, I think) are very good. Perhaps you can just elaborate on exactly what you understand with regard to Theravada evolving. Then I can tell you whether I agree or not. Joop (now): I try, see below. Sarah: "There are however, some points, like the one B.Bodhi mentioned in his disagreements with Nyanaponika on the 'impermanence of pannatti', which I think N. is quite wrong on." Joop (now): It's not the first time I got the impression BB is more orthodox than his teacher, but this one I don't know. What did they mean, can you give a source? One of the topics I'm thinking about much, is the future of (Theravada-)Buddhism. For two reasons. One is the way to construct my own buddhism with much Theravada-elements but also with some Mahayana and with some natural science agnosticism. The second reason is a collective one: I think Theravada has to evaluate or die. It must adapt to globalisation, process that I don't like but what will happen. And to say it with metta but clear: the topic 'Decline of the Sasana' (in U.P.) is useless for this theme. THE POSSIBLE EVOLUTION OF THERAVADA "Theravada" can be understand at three levels: 1.The core principles, the doctrines (for example anicca, anatta, dukkha etcetera) 2. A big area between 1 and 3, with not exact boundery 3. Cultural elements that are different in different Theravada- countries (for example the exact colour) of the robe of a monk, the melody of a chant. Evolution in #1 is not what I want to propose; evolution or even change in #3 is so evident that I will not talk about that. I talk about #2, the area in between. One of the topics we already will disagree (I think) is if in this area any evolution had taken place since let say Theravada landed in Sri Lanka more than 2000 years ago. The other topic is: is any change in the future an example of "decline of the Sasana"? I give three examples of the in between area in which Theravada had to evolve and can evolve: A. THERAVADA WITHOUT MONKS Not the existence of monks, of monastic life is a central element, but living with renunciations. I think in many Western countries there will be (as it is already now) a Theravada without ordained monks (obeying 200 and more rules). That is good. Perhaps the number of people who got arahant will decrease but what is that number in fact today or what was it 1000 years ago? B. TAKING PARTS OF THE PALI-CANON NOT LITERAL BUT METAPHORICAL Especially I think on what is said about matter (rupa). It will even be possible to reconcile Abhidhamma with research-results of neuroscience; and it's possible that details - not the principles - of the Abhidhamma (lists, mechanisms) will be adapted. I will even go one step further: In the Theravada of the future the idea that there are 31 realms of existence will not play a role any more. Rebirth will be believed but only with the life-forms animals and human beings. C. THERAVADA WITH LESS RITUAL ACTIVITIES, LESS DHAMMA-STUDY AND MORE MEDITATION No need to give a long explanation to this point. Yestderday in my message "Did Buddhaghosa (formal) medidate?" I already said something about it. Below some quotes from discussions some weeks/month ago and the quote of Nyanaponika with which you didn't agree. I do not want to hide myself behind Nyanaponika but I really don't understand with what of this very careful essay you don't agree. I realize that Nyanaponika wrote about the development of Abhidhamma and I now talk about Theravada as a whole, in which Abhidhamma is an aspect. Metta Joop In #50216 Sarah: Btw, Joop, with regard to your comment in a message to me about Theravada being dead in fifty years without more creativity....etc, see 'Decline of the Sasana' in U.P. According to the Buddha, it is some of the imaginative renderings and alterations to the teachings from within that leads to the decline. When the teachings are not carefully read in detail and so on. Also see especially Jon's fairly recent post #48619 with the quote from AN about the 5 factors which lead to the disappearance of the true dhamma: not hearing the dhamma, learning the dhamma, retaining the dhamma, investigating and knowing what is significant and practising... Of course, a day may come when Theravada seems to be flourishing, but actually has little or no resemblance to the Buddha's teachings. Also, see Connie's fairly recent post on 'The Sasana's Capacity for being Recast' with just this point having been discussed in the Kathavatthu #48029. In #50308 Joop: I think you (Sarah) are not positive enough about the necessary and possible evolution of Theravada. In the preface to his Abhidhamma Studies, Nyanaponika states: "There is no reason why the Abhidhamma philosophy of the Southern or Theravada tradition should stagnate today or why its further development should not be resumed. In fact, through many centuries there has been a living growth of Abhidhamma thought ... There are are a vast number of subjects in the canonical and commentarial Abhidhamma literature that deserve and require closer investigation and new presentation in the language of our time. There are many lines of thought, only briefly sketched in Abhidhamma tradition, that merit detailed treatment in connection with parallel tendencies in modern thought. … Abhidhamma is meant for enquiring spirits who are not satisfied by monotonously and uncritically repeating ready-made terms, even if these are Abhidhamma terms. Abhidhamma is for imaginative minds who are able to fill in, as it were, the columns of the tabulations, for which the canonical Abhidhamma books have furnished the concise headings. The Abhidhamma is not for those timid souls who are not content that a philosophical thought should not actually contradict Buddhist tradition, but demand that it must be expressly, even literally, supported by canonical or commentarial authority. Such an attitude is contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Buddha- Dhamma. It would mean that the Abhidhamma philosophy must remain within the limits of whatever has been preserved of the traditional exegetical literature and hence will cease to be a living and growing organism … We are convinced that the Abhidhamma, if suitably presented, could also enrich modern non-Buddhist thought, … It is … important that the Buddhist way of presenting and solving the respective problems should show modern independent thinkers new vistas and open new avenues of thought, which in turn might revive Buddhist philosophy in the East. (page XXVII-XXVIII) 51892 From: "D." Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 Hi Larry Oh if you don't mind, i'll do that. I made a list of all questions ready to go. Just joking :-) Djimpa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Djimpa: "Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions in > such a detailed manner! > Guess, need some time to re-read it and to check the provided sources." > > Hi Djimpa, > > I agree. It's a good idea to read the sources. They can be rather > complicated so feel free to ask a question any time. > > Larry > 51893 From: "D." Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 Hi Mike Where have you been, you mentioned Rangoon? Is that located in Nepal? Tell me more about your stay if you don't mind! I came very save the longer way via Pokara to Katmandu and we met several heavy armed military checkpoints. I made some pictures of them, although not permitted. Same in Katmandu, military armed forces everywhere. At the India/Nepal border we heard rumor's about some battle between the rebels and the military, so we staid save for a couple of hours in one clean and neat Nepali hotel to get some sleep. Was a good idea! If you did experience before a trip with a bus for days, (without getting a chance for true 5 minutes sleep)i am too sensitive with all the noice and shaking and trampling and rolling on the road, you will know what i mean about the stress and the tiering travel for days in one small sitting place in one very healthy gymnastic position. I did the trip several times now in my life. The only profit with going by bus over land is, you can take a lot of stuff with you,and you need to pay only small money (1200 Indian Rupee) had one very big aluminium box full of study stuff and full of personal stuff which i need during my stay in the east. So i brought that from India to Nepal. Because of continual that study now in Nepal. I found that nice college which was even nicer and better organiced then the one i stayed before in Delhi. Even cheaper around 650 Dollar for 3 month accommondation and food is allincluded in this study fee. Please have a look at: www.sakyaiba.edu.np and this was the location i did study previously in Delhi www.karmapa-institute.org With sincere Djimpa 51894 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "D." wrote: > > Hi Joop > ... Hallo Djimpa Good that we don't discuss about opinions but (first) exchange information. I knew about the relations between Nagarjuna's Karika and Tibetan Buddhism today; only I think there has taken place a evolution of idea. I like the Karika's but I think there are big differences between this text and tantric buddhism. Another difference between Theravada and Mahayana is that in Theravada the Teachings (of the Buddha, the socalled Tipitaka or Pali Canon) play a central role; and that in Mahayana the "teacher" (livinf on this moment) is central. Of course I exaggerate the difference a little in this way but it exists and is important. You ask about the history of Theravada and called different "schools" in history. Well, Theravada does hardly reflect in this way about its own history. The reason is Theravada says it is what the Buddha teached, so they (personally I think Theravada did evolve) is a direct line between what the Buddha said 2500 years ago and Theravada today. A Buddhist scolar who knows much of Theravada and of early Buddhism in general and of early Mahayana is David Kalupahana. He has written several books about it: the most easy is to look on www.amazon.com Hope to hear more of you With metta (you will know this Pali-word means "loving kindnes") Joop 51895 From: "D." Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:40am Subject: Nagarjurnas lifestory djimpa2002 (Taken from the teachings in Delhi India) Nagarjuna was born into a Brahmin family. It was tradition at that time in India that when a child was born, there would be some other Brahmins who would foretell the life of the newborn child, maybe astrology or whatever? When Nagarjuna was born the parents called these experts and they told that the child had a lot of good karma, a lot of merit, it was also a child who was intelligent, but the child would not be able to live for very long. And when the parents asked "So, what can we do to prolong his life?", then they were given the advice that if they would give food to a hundred poor people, a hundred beggars, that would give seven days of life to the child, if they would give food to hundred like yogi, Hindu yogis, it would give seven months of life, and if they would feed hundred Buddhist monks, then it could give seven years of life for the child. And beyond that, there was not much to do. So, the parents then fulfilled that. The child grew up and he was extraordinarily gifted, he was very intelligent and he had very good behaviour and the parents loved him very much. When the time approached when he would be seven years, they couldn't stand the thought of seeing him die and they were sure that he was going to die. So, some months before, like seven months before he was supposed to die, they sent him off together with some other people and sent him on a pilgrimage. It was to at that time one said "the central place in India", which means the central place of where the dharma is and that is called Mangadha and that means to like Bodhgaya and those holy places. And the child, Nagarjuna, then he travelled with these people and on this travel at a certain time he reached Nalanda. And at that time, Nalanda, which is a Buddhist university, the Khenpo there was Saraha. And Saraha had the name of Rahul at that time. As they visited Nalanda and they made offerings, Nagarjuna met Saraha. Saraha could see that the child was somebody who had already awakened his Mahayana-potential, that means he was like a bodhisattva. And he asked then the child to come to him. He asked him questions. He asked "So, where do you come from? What is your home and why did you come to Nalanda?" and that kind of questions and Nagarjuna answered him: He said "I come from the South and the province is called Beda". And then he also told that he came from a brahmin family, that his parents were rich and he said that he came here because he would only have a short life and that his parents had sent him on a pilgrimage before he was going to die. So, Saraha told him that if the child was going to practice the dharma, then that would prolong his life. So he asked him if he thought he could practice the dharma. And Nagarjuna said "Yes, I can practice the dharma and also it will give my life meaning". And Nagarjuna also said to Saraha "So, please tell me what to do". Saraha ordained the child and he gave him different practices. And first, he was given the practice of Tsepame, Amitayus, the Long Life Buddha. And there is one practice through which one overcomes life-obstacles and he was told to do that one and to accomplish it. And he practised it. When the day came which was the day of his death otherwise, he had accomplished Tsepame and he had a vision of Tsepame and he was prophesied, he was told that he had now accomplished long life, he had accomplished life for six-hundred years. But out of these six-hundred years, he would be able to live for five-hundred-twenty-five. After that Saraha became the main teacher of Nagarjuna. And he learned from him very vastly, he learned all the sutras, he learned the tantras. And not only that, he also learned the different kinds of science of medicine, of sound, of art, everything completely. One of these sciences were the alchemy, how you can make gold. Altogether he stayed in Central India for about two-hundred years, and hundred of those years was at Nalanda where he also was a khenpo for that many years. And apart from that he widely travelled in India, he taught the dharma. Among the teachers after the Buddha's time, he is one of the greatest, one whose activities has been the vastest. And he's called like the Second Buddha. To mention some of his activities and accomplishments, he accomplished the tantra of Sangwa Düpa, Guhyasamaja and especially in the Kagyü-Tradition, out of the six doctrines of Naropa, he is somebody who has accomplished the Illusory Body and the Clear Light. Finally, he died in the South of India. He died because the prince of that place had asked for his head. Wishing to be generous, he said "It's OK, I will give you my head". And then the prince tried to cut his head off with a knife but he didn't succeed. And Nagarjuna then, in his meditation, he could see that he had one karmic seed left where, for many millions of years ago, that he had once cut the head of an insect with a sharp grass and he told that, instead of using any weapon, then it would be possible to cut his head with that grass. And that was then how finally he died, and his head was cut with this grass. And at that time he had lived for five-hundred-twenty-five years. 51896 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:03am Subject: The Two Kinds of Desire & Disgust ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: _The Advantageous and The Detrimental! _ _*There are these two kinds of Desire:* __1: The Advantageous Desire_ for unbinding, for release, for peace, for Nibbana... Why is this form of desire advantageous ? Because it leads to lasting & ultimate safety, freedom, bliss and _HAPPINESS !!!_ _2: The Detrimental Desire_ for forms, for body, for feelings, for perceptions, for mental constructions, for sensing, and for the various types of consciousness ... Why is this form of desire detrimental ? Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & ever painful death !!! Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair ... I tell you, because such desire leads to _SUFFERING ..._ These are the two kinds of Desire! _*There are these two kinds of Disgust:* __1: The Advantageous Disgust_ towards forms, towards body, towards feelings, towards perceptions, towards mental constructions, towards sensing, towards the manifold and various types of consciousness, towards all internal and external ... Why is this form of disgust advantageous ? Because it leads towards lasting & ultimate safety, freedom, bliss & _HAPPINESS !!!_ _2: The Detrimental Disgust_ towards friends on the Noble life, towards morality, towards meditation, towards understanding, towards right view, towards right motivation, towards right speech, towards right behaviour, towards right livelihood, towards right effort, and towards right concentration... Why is this form of disgust detrimental ? Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & ever painful death !!! Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & desperate despair ... I tell you, because such disgust leads to _SUFFERING ..._ These are the two kinds of Disgust! Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 51897 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:18am Subject: Disgust remains the main Cure ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Hal: These bhikkhus were -as beings all are - catched by their kamma! Their concurrent mediations on disgust was only the ripening time factor!!! Complex is this multifactorial matrix of causality... Nothing in the cited article implies asubha as sole cause! If you fear pain, if you dislike pain, don't do an evil deed in open nor secret. If you're doing or will do an evil deed, you won't escape pain: it will catch you even as you run away. Udana V, 4 Here is a fine Arahats view of this socalled body, which naturally is difficult to accept, by those with a burning desire for the form! Unfortunately these 'burners' are exactly those who need it most! _Venerable Mahamoggallana's Theragathas on the Body:_ 1150. You ragged shed made of a chain of bones, sewn together with flesh and sinews. Fie upon you evil-smelling body worshipping those who have another's limbs. 1151. You bag of shit, tied up with skin, you demon with lumps on your chest. Nine holes is there in you body, streaming with disgust. 1152. You body, with your nine oozing holes, makes an evil smell and is all obstipated by dung. A bhikkhu desiring purity, avoids this as one avoids any stinking heap of rotten excrement. 1153. If any person knew you, as I know you, he would avoid you, keeping far, far away, as one avoids a toilet-pit in the rainy season. 1154. This is so, Great Hero, as you say, Ascetic and here many sink down as an old drowning bull in deep, wet, and fatal mud...!!! 1157. See this painted puppet, a heap of sores, a constructed form, diseased, decaying, falling apart, with many evil intentions, of no permanent stability, nor safety... In whomever such awareness of the body as a dangerous and digusting trap is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold... These 'body-lovers' becomes Mara's - the Evil Ones' - friends and soldiers: Not knowing, not seeing Suffering - the 1st Truth - they run about claiming: Body is beautiful, form is happiness, there is neither sickness, decay, ageing nor any death! When Mara contacts them, they say: Come on in Sir, touch me!, it will be my honour and pleasure ... Because of this false & wrong view, such feverish 'body-lovers' share a future painful destiny with Mara - the Evil One! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 51898 From: "D." Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The fourteen undecided questions djimpa2002 > > Hallo Joop Joop wrote: > > Good that we don't discuss about opinions but (first) exchange > information. Djimpa answer: Yea, its too vast subject and i know of the danger that terms which a defined in our tradition may have a slightly different meaning in other traditions, so i am a bit careful to pronounce a opinion on the obverse first impression i can get. Joop wrote: > I knew about the relations between Nagarjuna's Karika and Tibetan > Buddhism today; only I think there has taken place a evolution of > idea. I like the Karika's but I think there are big differences > between this text and tantric buddhism. Djimpa answer: Evolution would be the wrong term for that. Evolution you have for something which can be improved, that is not the case with the teachings of Nagarjurna. Rather, to bring the same truth into a gradual and progressive level of conceptual module, which are suitable for the understanding for those students who lack the inner mental ability to understand the, root verses called wisdom, from Nagarjurna without the help of propper conceptual elaboration. Joop wrote: > Another difference between Theravada and Mahayana is that in > Theravada the Teachings (of the Buddha, the socalled Tipitaka or Pali > Canon) play a central role; and that in Mahayana the "teacher" > (livinf on this moment) is central. Of course I exaggerate the > difference a little in this way but it exists and is important. Djimpa answer: I can only assume that in all traditions the teacher plays a central role. Without teacher no learning is possible. Just go back in the time where we went to school, think about when you received the first teachings about Buddhism, later the first practical steps for meditation and so on, there is no learning possible separate from the love and care of a teacher in whatever it may be in the mundane science or if we go to learn the science of supermundane knowledge. We have not to get mixed up now with any of the Mahayana traditions, which involves a teacher as spiritual friend (similar like in Therevada) with the specific teachings in Mahayana tradition popularely known as 'Vajrayana'. This is no extra yana, but part of the Mahayana. This systems incorporate another approach and behaviour (which is fundamental the same like in Mahayana which is again based on Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha yana) the outlook in Vajrayana is different from Therevada and Mahayana. This system involves a strict mode of behaviour and motivation and advanced ethical contact. But it is principal the same like in Mahayana. Because in Vajrayana the student takes aspects of the goal as motivation (bodhicitta) and the view of a Buddha and the skilful means for proceeding towards Buddha the Enlighten State in a much more speedy way and that makes the path also danger. The Teacher is very imporatnt on that path for the before mentioned reasons. Joop wrote: > You ask about the history of Theravada and called different "schools" > in history. Well, Theravada does hardly reflect in this way about its > own history. The reason is Theravada says it is what the Buddha > teached, so they (personally I think Theravada did evolve) is a > direct line between what the Buddha said 2500 years ago and Theravada > today. > > A Buddhist scolar who knows much of Theravada and of early Buddhism > in general and of early Mahayana is David Kalupahana. He has written > several books about it: the most easy is to look on www.amazon.com > > Hope to hear more of you > > > With metta (you will know this Pali-word means "loving kindnes") > > Joop Djimpa answer: Thanks for your input! With best wishes Djimpa 51899 From: "D." Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: The Two Kinds of Desire & Disgust ... !!! djimpa2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > > Friends: > > _The Advantageous and The Detrimental! > _ > _*There are these two kinds of Desire:* > > __1: The Advantageous Desire_ for unbinding, for release, for peace, > for Nibbana... > Why is this form of desire advantageous ? > Because it leads to lasting & ultimate safety, freedom, bliss and > _HAPPINESS !!!_ > > _2: The Detrimental Desire_ for forms, for body, for feelings, for > perceptions, for > mental constructions, for sensing, and for the various types of > consciousness ... > Why is this form of desire detrimental ? > Because it leads to repeated births, ageing, decaying, sickness & > ever painful death !!! > Because it leads to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, misery & > desperate despair ... > I tell you, because such desire leads to _SUFFERING ..._ > These are the two kinds of Desire! > Hi Bikkhu Samahita May i ask you one question? In which respect are the two desires to each other to be understood? Taking the twofold elaboration for desire as example. The first point, about, desire for peace of nibbana, is in my opinion included into the aspect No 2 of the desire which is the outcome of the workings of a samsaric mind based in the 5 (Skr. skhandas). Because having desire for peace of nibbana is just an object of conceptual elaboration, and can't be for those stuck into the framework of karmic 5 skhandas, be a real object of reality. What i mean is, having desire for nibbana is just an idea of something we can't know now and that's the workings and outcome of No. 2 which is called detrimental desire. Because it is caused from causes based on delusions of mind workings of inaccurate knowlage, not knowing what nibbhana is. Why this separation presentation of two kind of desires, which are in nature based in the the same ignorance? 51900 From: "Jean" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccariya? jean_5004 Dear Sarah, I appreciate your kindness and sweet information/summary so much. I have found out the book--'The Pali Literature of Ceylon' today at the library of my institute (Chung-Hwa Institute of Buddhist Studies, Taiwan). And I am trying to read the details. Until now, because of my poor English, there is one sentence I donnot really understand--"Mahaa-paccarii means 'Great Raft' and was so called 'because it was composed on a raft somewhere in Ceylon'." Could you explain "because it was COMPOSED ON a RAFT " more? Is "raft" something like boat? Why/How the "Mahaa-paccarii" composed on a raft? Thank you very much! I am writing my thesis of master's degree. It is about the money rules of Bhikkhu. I tried to read/translate(into Chinese) some parts of Samantapaasaadikaa, that's why I met "mahaapaccarii". I am interested in Vinaya, because it is the base of practicing dhamma. And I think the more we understand Vinaya,the better we can be a upaasaka/upaasikaa and kappiya kaaraka, even one day to be a monk/nun of character. Oh!If there is any unpolite expression, please forgive me (and teach me the polite one, if you want). Because my English is really poor...I belive that you are already conscious of that. Thank you again for your help! metta, Jean --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Jean, > > Welcome to DSG and I hope you're still reading/checking messages. > Whereabouts are you studying/living out of interest? > > > --- Jean wrote: > > In fact, "Maha-Paccariya" is the title of the ancient Commentary of > > Vinaya mentioned in Samantapaasaadikaa. And just as Larry said, I > > cannot find the meaning of "Maha-Paccariya" or "paccariya" in the > > dictionaries. > ... > S: I have a little more information to add, though you may have found it > all by now: > > 1. From Malalasekera's 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon', it says that > Mahaa-paccarii means 'Great Raft' and was so called 'because it was > composed on a raft somewhere in Ceylon'. > > 2. As you mention, it is one of the texts referred to in the > Samantapaasaadikaa, the commentary to the Vinaya, written by Buddhaghosa. > > Quoting from the same book above, we read: > > "By the time of the Third Council such commentarial literature had been > more or less fully developed; and when, after the conclusion of that > Synod, Mahinda came to Ceylon, he brought over with him the expositions of > the teaching which had been sanctioned by the Elders at that meeting. Very > soon after Mahinda's arrival he translated them into 'the language of the > land', and they continued to be studied and pondered upon and further > developed by the monks of Ceylon.". > > At the time when Buddhaghosa arrived,the commentaries had already been put > together into treatises and texts. Buddhaghosa himself refers to the > explanations chanted at the First Council, re-chanted later and brought by > Mahinda to Sri Lanka etc in his introduction to the Atthasalini. > > These texts are then given in detail as also found in the introduction to > Mrs R-D's translation of the Dhammasangani. > > 3. In Jayawickrama's introduction to his translation of the Baahiranidaana > (introduction to the Vinaya commentary)he gives the sources of the > Samantapaasaadikaa as referred to by Buddhaghosa, I presume. > > "The Mahaa or Muula-A.t.thakathaa is achknowledged as the chief source of > the Samantapaasaadikaa (39 references), while Mahaapaccarii (94 > references), Karundi (67 references), Andhaka (13 references), Sa'nkehepa > (9 references)and Paccarii....are extensively consulted." > > A lot more detail is given, but you're probably already familiar with it. > > If there's anything else you'd like me to check if you don't have these > texts, pls let me know. > > I hope we hear more from you and about your particular area of research > and interest. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== > 51901 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:58am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) nidive Hi Ken H, > Provided we acknowledge the absolute truth of the anatta doctrine, > we cannot go far wrong. TB teaches that anatta is just a technique > for calming the mind, and, in my opinion, he is going very far > wrong indeed. A few years ago at Triplegem, I was really impressed with RobertK's knowledge of no-self. I thought he understood no-self in the same way as I understood no-self. But it turned out that I was wrong. Our versions of no-self are poles apart, north and south, east and west. As for the rest of the message, no comments. Not that I agree with, but responding to your messages is really dukkha! Regards, Swee Boon 51902 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Reasons for leaving DSG dacostacharles Hi all, especially Phil This sounds like a good time to practice no-self/not-self, then "your" feelings don't get hurt or .... Tones of posts become empty; the message of a post becomes just a message, one post of many. Yes, it is tough to let go so often we give up. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhatrue Sent: Tuesday, 25 October, 2005 11:51 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for leaving DSG Hi Phil, I can't help but feel responsible for your decision to leave DSG, due to my last bombastic post about KS. It was a bit over the top. But I want gently question some of your reasons for your decision. Phil: If people don't like A. Sujin's teaching, and see it as wrong, why stay at DSG? James: This is a dhamma study group, not a A. Sujin study group. Not everyone agrees with A. Sujin's positions, especially in regards to meditation, but everyone here does take refuge in the Triple Gem. I could see how it would be silly for a Muslim, for example, to be in this group and post against the truth of the Triple Gem. But I don't do that. I am a Buddhist and this is a Buddhist group so I belong here just as much as you and other Buddhists. Phil: The problem is, however, the adversarial energy - even when it is obviously without malicious intention and reflects the keen interest of the people involved - creates a kind of disturbance on the surface of the pond that prevents understanding from sinking in. James: The Buddha's monks had disagreements with each other all the time in regards to the dhamma; they sometimes had disagreements with the Buddha; and they would have disagreements with the followers of other sects/beliefs. The Buddha gave his monks advice on how to handle such disagreements, I couldn't find the sutta right now, but it wasn't of the nature "Avoid all disagreements about dhamma. Only associate with those who agree with you. Wrap yourself up in an artificial cocoon of peace and tranquility." That doesn't allow understanding to "sink in" in my opinion. Understanding comes from within you, not from outside sources. I have often considered leaving DSG because of the psychic vibes I get from members. I know if my posts have gained approval or disapproval just from the feelings I receive. That can really be stressful. But, I keep coming back for more so there must be something I need to learn here. Learn how to have equanimity in the face of challenge. Phil: For example, there are 5 or 6 points that keep coming up when I listen to A. Sujin's talks that I disagree with. She is wrong at times. Now, I would like to discuss some of these points I disagree with, but I'll be damned if I am going to be drawn into the camp mentality. James: You shouldn't have to bring up these points, unless you really wanted to. Again, this is not an A. Sujin group, this is a Buddhist group with a special interest in the Abhidhamma. Really, if you have some questions about 5 or 6 points that A. Sujin makes you should ask A. Sujin about them. Maybe you can write her a letter? Phil: one thing I admire about James is that, as far as I know, this is the only Yahoo group he belongs to. This reflects a certain sincerity of purpose on his part, in my opinion. James: Thank you. I belong to other Yahoo groups but I don't post to them and I don't read the posts. I joined because I got a personal invitation and it seemed the polite thing to do. Phil: If a post by Phil appears, a light goes on in the mind. He is a hard core DSG member! And the post is read with a mind hungering to find something to disagree with. This is what goes on. James: I completely disagree!! This is not what goes on. If this was happening in this group then I wouldn't belong. You are assuming too much. Let me assure you, as a psychic who can sometimes discern people's motivations for writing posts, this is not the main motivation! Phil: What it comes down to is that I need that time and space, I guess. Well, I sense that understanding needs it. James: That's cool. (Just don't take too much time or give yourself too much space! ;-)) Phil: The still waters that are needed for understanding to be developed are always whipped up by the winds of opinion blowing across the surface of the pond. James: Again, this is a nice metaphor but it isn't correct. In the Panna Sutta the Buddha describes what is required for understanding (panna) to arise and he says nothing about "still waters" or a constantly calm and peaceful environment. You should sit in meditation, focusing on the breath, to develop your calm and tranquility, and then you should go out into the world to test it. Metta, James ps. I am also going to send this to your e-mail in case you have unsubscribed. 51903 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:07pm Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self matheesha333 Hi Phil, P: He answers "it is possible, friend Udayi. Doesn't eye- > consciousness arise in dependence on eye and forms?...If the cause > and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness would cease > completely and totally without remainder, could eye-consciousness be > discerned?.. M: It is possible to see this mechanism in action. I have directed friends in meditation to see this mechanism. But it requires a mind immersed in samadhi/one-pointedness otherwise it is not possible to pick out the seperate components because it would happen so fast. Often the key to gaining insight into no self is to see the dependant nature of the dhammas arising and passing away. Many of those who come to this understanding do so once they focus on the link between two successive dhammas as in object, eye and eye consciosness giving rise to the image. Sometimes the understanding is superfical and after the elation passess they find themselves to be in the same place. But if they can see the arising and passing away in a conditioned manner, and over a length of time, then it is proved beyond doubt, and avijja is counteracted, the insight remains and is at deep level. They might even marvel how it could possibly be, even though they know deep inside that there is no self. metta Matheesha ps- I might add that regardless of all the insight, being a sotapanna means being able to keep your sila as well, which is a seperate training in it self. 51904 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) corvus121 Dear James Thanks for your response. I'll snip to the questions/issues below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > Andrew: James, thanks for illustrating my (limited) point so > forcefully and promptly i.e. regardless of the language used, many > people will read in "shoulds" as a matter of course. > > James: Hope it wasn't too forceful. ;-)) A: Not at all. James: This isn't a `limited' > point, it is a valid point and one which should be seriously > considered. A: It was a limited point because I wasn't wanting to extrapolate further just then. But I do agree with you that it is a threshhold point with enormous implications. James: I discussed this point with Jon once, who also reads > the suttas in the manner that you do. It is somewhat `odd' > or `stilted' the manner in which the Buddha describes certain things > in the suttas- in the manner of "this is the fact of what is > happening" rather than "this is what should happen". Why is that? > Frankly, I don't believe it is because of the reason you propose: > that he is just describing reality rather than proposing actions to > be taken. I believe it is because he is speaking from his point-of- > view. An enlightened person, especially an enlightened Buddha, > doesn't think in terms of `should's, because he has already > accomplished what should be accomplished. Only the unenlightened > think in terms of `should's, "I should do this and I should do > that." There is a sutta, quoted recently on DSG, where a deva is > talking to the Buddha about how difficult the practice is, how hard > it is, and the Buddha simply replies with, to paraphrase, "Even > though it is difficult there are those who do it." Now, that > doesn't sound like a person who is going to be saying "you SHOULD do > this and you SHOULD do that"-- he just expects it to be done. A: In a way, I think that's my point. "Should" implies choice. "You should do this rather than do that." But we have to understand that choice is just conditioned desire (vedana-paccaya tanha). When there is Right Thinking, there can be no choice, no contradiction. Nearly all our thinking about 'shoulds' is just forming views, mostly wrong ones. Our ignorance is a severe limitation - acknowledging this is a good starting point, I think. James: you will see the Buddha giving instructions about what should and > should not be done is in the Vinaya Pitaka. Andrew, I gave those > quotes from the Vinaya and you didn't respond to them at all. Why > did you gloss them over? Do you have `mental blinders' on in > regards to the Vinaya Pitaka? (not attacking, just giving you > something to consider). A: I didn't respond to your quotes because my point was general and could have been illustrated with language drawn from any part. I admit I haven't read the Vinaya but I'm not averse to doing it. James, I recall reading on DSG that the original sangha were well developed and didn't need rules. The need for such rules only came about when the quality of the sangha diminished as it grew. Do you agree with that and, if so, do you think it is worth keeping in mind when one reads the Vinaya? > Andrew: Perhaps it might help to draw an analogy with Christianity. > Mainstream Christianity reads the New Testament as history. Many > scholars have argued, however, that it is all allegory. > > James: From my studies of the New Testament and Old Testament in > college (`Bible as Literature' Undergrad course) I would say that it > has elements of both. A: I take your point. A side issue, I know, but there are scholars now arguing that Jesus was entirely 100% mythical. (I can remember one of the Catholic priests who taught me saying that the Buddha was mythical!) > Andrew: In Buddhism, perhaps we can say there is a divide between > those who read Dhamma as a shopping list of things to be done and > those who read it as a description of reality to be understood. > > James: A gentle observation, I don't like the metaphor of "shopping > list" in your description. To me, it belittles the Buddha's > teaching. A: I'll try not to use that terminology again. Thanks. > Andrew: People with the former inclination read in "shoulds"; people > with the latter read them out. Which is right? We all have to decide > that for ourselves. > > James: Yes, we all have to decide for ourselves. I hope I have > sufficiently explained why I believe "should" is usually implied in > the suttas. But, if not, feel free to ask any additional questions. A: You have been very clear, James. I think I really do understand your viewpoint because I shared it for many years and may share it again in the future. No point in getting worked up about differing views. After all, they *are* just views. Bye for now, Andrew T 51905 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) kenhowardau Hi James, ---------------- J: > There are many like that. The fellow teacher who treated me so badly before the summer now acts like absolutely nothing happens. But she goes out of her way to be nice to me. I know that is her way of apologizing. ----------------- Yes, I am like her: there are a lot of us around. :-) -------------------------- <. . .> J: > Okay. But I think it is better to address what bothers you right when it bothers you rather than keep it bottled up inside. Then you will hold grudges against me and they will come out at unexpected times- like your comment to Howard 'out-of-the-blue'. But, really, you handle things the way you want and I will just remember. --------------------------- Thanks. I don't exactly choose to handle things that way, it happens to be the best way I am capable of. When someone praises me or insults me my reactions are the same as with most people (attachment and aversion respectively) but I tend to keep a straight face. ------------------------ J: > Really, I wasn't trying to attack you, I was just trying to be funny. But, I often don't know what is appropriate humor and what is inappropriate- which is related to my backgroud. (I will explain more below since you were so kind as to explain yourself). ------------------------- Thank you for the explanation that followed. It is a chilling thought that right now millions of children are suffering in the same way you did. How can we acknowledge that and still get on with our own lives? The answer, I feel sure, is to understand conditioned dhammas. A more conventional answer would be to find a quiet place for reflection and radiation of metta. That might arguably work for us, but would it help a child in an abusive household? Here at DSG we can learn a method by which kusala consciousness and the peace of mind that accompanies it can be conditioned to arise at any time regardless of prevailing circumstances. In this way, a child born in a future time in another abusive household can have moments of genuine peace. And those moments might shape the course of his or her life. ---------------- J: > So, I am going to really focus on using metta as my vehicle to transform my personality. You may be disappointed because I won't be the 'John McEnroe' of this group anymore. ;-)) ---------------- Let's remember that you are usually pleasant company. You only occasionally switch into Mc Enroe mode, and then you give us valuable practice for dealing with all the other Mc Enroes in daily life. :-) Most important is to understand conditioned dhammas. No matter what personality we might think we have, in reality, there is no personality at all. Ken H 51906 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise: para 342 - 367. Ground vii./ last post buddhistmedi... Hi, DSG members interested in Breathing Treatise - The last post of the Breathing Treatise here stops at the end of Ground vii of Tetrad II. I will continue to post the rest of the Breathing Treatise at the SariputtaDhamma Group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/ Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > This post presents Ground vii of Tetrad II. > > (vii) > > 342. How is it that (13) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with > the cognizance formation', (14) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out > acquainted with the cognizance formation'? > 51907 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:15pm Subject: Different Outcomes ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni D. wrote: >Why this separation presentation of two kind of desires, >which are in nature based in the the same ignorance? The difference lies in their opposed outcomes: Desire for the world => pain Desire for the nibbana => bliss Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/ <...> 51908 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] Dosa arises with two types of citta, of which one is “unprompted” (asaòkhårika) and one “prompted” (sasaòkhårika)(1). There are many degrees of dosa. It may be a slight aversion or it may be stronger, appearing as moodiness, bad temper, anger or hate. When dosa is strong one may speak harsh words or throw things about the house. One may feel desperate and commit suicide, one may hit others and even commit murder. When we hear about crimes other people have committed with dosa, we wonder how it could happen. When strong dosa arises it can lead to the committing of akusala kamma which we may not have thought ourselves capable of. Strong dosa can even motivate “heinous crimes” (anantarika kamma) which produce an unhappy rebirth immediately after the life during which one committed the crime has ended. We read about five heinous crimes in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fives, Chapter 13, §9, Festering): * "Monks, five are lost in hell who lie festering, incurable. What five? (By him) has his mother been deprived of life; his father; an arahat; (by him), with evil thought, has the Tathågata’s blood been drawn; (by him) has the Order been embroiled. Verily, monks, these are the five lost in hell who lie festering, incurable." * We should remember that all degrees of dosa are dangerous, even the lesser degrees. If we do not develop right understanding we accumulate more and more dosa without realizing it. Therefore, it is helpful to study the different aspects of dosa. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 6. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 51909 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:30pm Subject: India Photos sukinderpal Dear Group, I have just finished uploading some of the India photos that I took. There were some technical problems including file names. It has taken a long time so I have not bothered to make it perfect. Hope you can still make out the descriptions though. I link it to "my photos" @ my yahoo. http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/my_photos Enjoy. Metta, Sukin. 51910 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: India Photos christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > I have just finished uploading some of the India photos that I took. > There were some technical problems including file names. It has taken > a long time so I have not bothered to make it perfect. Hope you can > still make out the descriptions though. > > I link it to "my photos" @ my yahoo. > > http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/my_photos > > Enjoy. > > Metta, > > Sukin. > Dear Sukin, Magnificent! Thank you! errr.... apart from the one where you could have told me to take that hat off :-) :-) metta, Chris 51911 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 0:38am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > These are also questions that are of interest to me. > ... Hallo Swee Boon I have not yet reacted to your remarks on my questions because I was waiting for Htoo. Thanks for them, it's clear, or: more clear. To me it's enough to get stream-enterer, I'm not that ambitious wanting to be an arahant. Only I think the term 'householder' is to oldfashioned to use now, even when it's used in the sutta; of myself I think something like 'partly renunciating'; does that make sense to you? Metta Joop 51912 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:03pm Subject: The Sources of the ALL ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: These 12 Sources (ãyatana) is the ALL in itself! 1: The eye is the source of seeing... 2: Form is the source of the seen... 3: The ear is the source of hearing... 4: Sound is the source of the heard... 5: The nose is the source of smelling... 6: Scent is the source of the smelt... 7: The tongue is the source of tasting... 8: Flavour is the source of the tasted... 9: The body is the source of touching... 10: Tangibles are the source of the touched... 11: The mind is the source of cognizing... 12: Mental phenomena are the source of the cognized... Whether internal or external, all is rooted in one of these sources! Beyond these exists nothing, since this classification includes all phenomena, even the unconstructed and unconditioned dimension of Nibbana, which though transcendental, still is a source of this cognizable mental phenomenon: Namely the even sameness of the Highest Bliss, the most Ultimate Freedom and the Deepest Peace! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 51913 From: "D." Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: Different Outcomes ... !!! djimpa2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > > D. wrote: > > >Why this separation presentation of two kind of desires, > >which are in nature based in the the same ignorance? > > The difference lies in their opposed outcomes: > Desire for the world => pain > Desire for the nibbana => bliss > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > http://www.What-Buddha-Said.org/ > <...> > Thank you, that makes sense to me! D. 51914 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Andrew and All, It seems that you don't want to get into a prolonged discussion about this matter, but if you don't mind I want to make a few comments. I think it is important and so far our discussion has been quite genial. Andrew: In a way, I think that's my point. "Should" implies choice. "You should do this rather than do that." James: I disagree. "You should do this rather than do that," doesn't imply a choice. When there is a choice there is no "should"- just do whatever you want. Dictionary.com defines should as, "Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note." Andrew: But we have to understand that choice is just conditioned desire (vedana-paccaya tanha). James: Yes, everything is conditioned, except nibbana. Andrew: When there is Right Thinking, there can be no choice, no contradiction. James: I disagree. There are two levels of Right Thinking: Mundane and Supermundane. Mundane Right Thinking involves choice (and I don't think this issue really centers on "choice", it centers on duty or obligation.) Andrew: I didn't respond to your quotes because my point was general and could have been illustrated with language drawn from any part. James: Okay, then illustrate your point with quotes from the Vinaya Pitaka. Then you would really prove a point. Andrew: I admit I haven't read the Vinaya but I'm not averse to doing it. James: Then please read the Vinaya, more than once, to get a broader understanding of the Buddha's teaching. Andrew: James, I recall reading on DSG that the original sangha were well developed and didn't need rules. The need for such rules only came about when the quality of the sangha diminished as it grew. James: Yes, the original sangha was composed of entirely arahants. When the unenlightened began to join the sangha the need for rules developed. Andrew: Do you agree with that and, if so, do you think it is worth keeping in mind when one reads the Vinaya? James: Yes, I agree with that. Sure, keep in mind that the Vinaya is meant for the unenlightened. The enlightened don't need such rules, but the unenlightened do need them. The Vinaya is what they SHOULD do if they want to become enlightened. Andrew: No point in getting worked up about differing views. After all, they *are* just views. James: I hope I haven't gotten "worked up" during this exchange. I don't have any great hope of changing your view, but I might be able to influence the views of lurker readers through this exchange. Metta, James 51915 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] India Photos sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& Chris & Joop), --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have just finished uploading some of the India photos that I took. > There were some technical problems including file names. .... S: Great pics and a we've just enjoyed the slide show. We also enjoyed all your captions and the odd mystery left unsolved such as what Christine became after being caught with those sharp objects....(?!?). Pls give the link again for Nina & Lodewijk when they return too. Thx again for all your hard work. Hope you had a good trip home and that your business is still 'alive'. I made a reference to your 'highlight' of the trip regarding 'thinking about thinking'. Could you elaborate for us? Joop, thx for your patience:). Metta, Sarah p.s We forgot until we were in a taxi to make further arrangements for distributing copies of 'Survey of Paramattha dhammas' to friends here who'd appreciate one. I'll speak to you off-list soon. ====================== 51916 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccariya? sarahprocter... Dear Jean, I wouldn't have known you were not a native speaker of English. Where are you from? --- Jean wrote: > I appreciate your kindness and sweet information/summary so much. I > have found out the book--'The Pali Literature of Ceylon' today at > the library of my institute (Chung-Hwa Institute of Buddhist > Studies, Taiwan). And I am trying to read the details. ... S: They must have a good library. In my version, it's on p93, the chapter on 'Buddhaghosa'. I gave Nina a copy of this in India too and knew it contained the details, but couldn't check easily until return. Someone was posting here before from the institute in Taiwan that publishes free Dhamma books....I forget if it's connected. .... > Until now, because of my poor English, there is one sentence I > donnot really understand--"Mahaa-paccarii means 'Great Raft' and was > so called 'because it was composed on a raft somewhere in Ceylon'." > Could you explain "because it was COMPOSED ON a RAFT " more? > Is "raft" something like boat? Why/How the "Mahaa-paccarii" composed > on a raft? Thank you very much! .... S: Composed on a raft means that it was written/compiled by the author whilst sitting on a raft. Yes, a raft is like a boat - probably logs of wood tied together like a simple fishing boat. Anything I say is speculation too. Remember some of the Tsunami survivors who made very simple rafts out of logs and survived for days? .... > > I am writing my thesis of master's degree. It is about the money > rules of Bhikkhu. I tried to read/translate(into Chinese) some parts > of Samantapaasaadikaa, that's why I met "mahaapaccarii". I am > interested in Vinaya, because it is the base of practicing dhamma. > And I think the more we understand Vinaya,the better we can be a > upaasaka/upaasikaa and kappiya kaaraka, even one day to be a > monk/nun of character. ... S: You must be able to read Pali and Chinese then? Very impressive. I'd like to see the Samantapaasaadikaa translated into English. When I mentioned this once to B.Bodhi, he was very surprised that anyone was so interested. I wrote a series of messages based on the Baahiranidaana, which is transl into English, concerning the origins of the Abhidhamma and commentaries. (See 'Useful Posts' under Vinaya Commentary if you're interested). James and others here are also interested in the Vinaya, so please share any or your research interest and elaborate on your comments above if you feel inclined to do so. I'd also be interested to read any interesting bits from the Samantapaasaadikaa that you come across and which we may not be familiar with. .... > > Oh!If there is any unpolite expression, please forgive me (and teach > me the polite one, if you want). Because my English is really > poor...I belive that you are already conscious of that. Thank you > again for your help! ... S: Quite the contrary.....your messages are most polite:). I look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah ======== 51917 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:06am Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Ken H.: Thank you for the explanation that followed. It is a chilling thought that right now millions of children are suffering in the same way you did. How can we acknowledge that and still get on with our own lives? The answer, I feel sure, is to understand conditioned dhammas. James: You write something here which is very revealing and which I want to focus on: "How can we acknowledge that and still get on with our own lives?" This reveals a view of the dhamma as a `coping mechanism', and the dhamma isn't a coping mechanism- the dhamma is a means of transcendence. Your answer to your question is: "The answer, I feel sure, is to understand conditioned dhammas." What I read here is "Think that no one, no person, really exists and then there is no more suffering." I could be mistaken in my interpretation, but if I am not, then that is another coping mechanism. I have a different answer: Acknowledge that right now there are millions of children suffering in the same way that I did. Generate all of the Brahma Viharas for them: Metta- to feel the love for them that they aren't receiving; Compassion- to sympathize with their pain; Sympathetic Joy- to feel joy in whatever small achievements they accomplish; and Equanimity- to calmly realize/accept that their situation is the result of their individual kamma. This is what I believe the Buddha taught. Ken H.: A more conventional answer would be to find a quiet place for reflection and radiation of metta. That might arguably work for us, but would it help a child in an abusive household? James: Would convincing oneself that the child doesn't really exist help the child any better? Really, I believe that if more people practiced the Brahma-Viharas it could change our world. If you throw one sugar cube into the ocean, the ocean will still taste salty; but if you throw an unlimited number of sugar cubes into the ocean, the ocean wouldn't taste salty anymore. Ken H.: Here at DSG we can learn a method by which kusala consciousness and the peace of mind that accompanies it can be conditioned to arise at any time regardless of prevailing circumstances. James: What "method" is that???? I have been under the impression that you consider all methods to be rites and rituals. Ken H.: In this way, a child born in a future time in another abusive household can have moments of genuine peace. And those moments might shape the course of his or her life. James: This is a very nice sentiment and demonstrates that you have a kind heart. But I am still unclear as to your proposed "method". Metta, James 51918 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) sarahprocter... Hi James (Joop & all), --- buddhatrue wrote: I’ll just make a start here on your questions, but I think we’ll need to go to and fro for sometime on them as my responses won’t be satisfactory, I know. ... > 1.You promised me an explanation, without complex Pali, as to why KS > doesn't teach against Right Concentration even though she > discourages formal meditation practice. .... S: Simply put, there is concentration at every moment (it’s a ‘universal’ mental factor, which means that concentration arises with every moment of consciousness).So when the consciousness is ‘good’ as for example, when there is metta or generosity, then at such times the concentration is good. When the consciousness is ‘bad’, such as when we’re glued to the TV screen without any awareness, then such concentration is also ‘bad’. Now, it may seem that if there is a focus on a ‘good’ object, such as a sutta or reflection on foulness of the body or on death, that any associated concentration must be good. However, we can prove that this isn’t necessarily so at all. We can easily read a sutta with attachment or boredom, we can easily contemplate on the foulness of the body or death with unhappy feelings as I’m sure you’d agree. At such times, there is concentration but it’s not any sort of ‘right’ concentration. For the concentration to be ‘right’, the consciousness must be wholesome. So at a moment of genuine metta or kindness or at a moment of any kind of wise reflection, there is ‘right’ concentration. It depends on the wholesome consciousness and other wholesome mental factors, not on the object as such. As we know, usually when we think of other people, for example, there is attachment or other unwholesome qualities arising instead. Now when it comes to ‘Right Concentration’ of the eightfold path, not only does the consciousness have to be wholesome, there also has to be Right Understanding of a nama or rupa at that moment and other path factors arising. Such Right Concentration is momentary and cannot have people or foulness of the body or death as the object because it is satipatthana we’re talking about. Satipatthana is the development of understanding, awareness and concentration of dhammas (realities) only. So Right Concentration and the development of calm is integral to the development of the eightfold path. But, without clear understanding and awareness of paramattha dhammas, it cannot and will not develop. Even when we refer to the development of Right Concentration in the development of calm or samatha which may eventually lead to attainment of the jhanas, it has to be accompanied by Right Understanding of that kind or level too. For example, when there is wise reflection on death, there is right understanding and concentration. But as soon as we focus on death with such an aim in mind, it’s bound to be attachment and wrong concentration again. So, like anything connected with the Buddha’s teachings, it’s subtle and not easy to understand moments of right and wrong concentration as I see it. ...... > 2.I was wondering if anyone asked her my question about the > commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, which calls for the beginner > to pick on of the four foundations based on accumulations, and what > she had to say in response. In other words, why does she speak > against that commentary? .... S: I believe Nina raised several of your questions on the Satipatthana Sutta and in due course, I’m sure she’ll be getting back to you with replies and also you’ll be able to listen to the recordings later. What are our accumulations? Aren’t they just various mental qualities which briefly arise for a moment now as we speak? In other words, now there may be ‘calm and wise’ accumulations. Then we get up and go the fridge and there are ‘greedy’ accumulations or we’re disturbed and there are ‘annoyed’ accumulations. In other words, we all have all kinds of accumulations changing all the time. So when the Buddha refers to different accumulations, he’s referring to our varied mental states. For anyone on the path, all foundations of mindfulness have to be known. It’s never enough just to know ‘feelings’ or ‘rupas’ or ‘cittas’. There has to be the growth of detachment with satipatthana which knows and is aware of whatever dhamma presents itself, not a ‘cherry-picking’ according to some misguided idea of what ‘you’ or ‘I’ is in any sense of permanence or lasting accumulations. ..... > Now, I want to calmly, without outrageous metaphors and name- > calling, explain my concern about KS and her followers. Every > person who practices formal meditation is going to experience > doubt. The Buddha taught that doubt is one of the five hindrances > and everyone, without exception, will experience doubt about the > meditation practice itself. What I see, and I could be wrong, is > that KS speaks to this doubt in people and tells them that their > doubt is justified because meditation isn't necessary. .... S: So doubt is another conditioned dhamma that can be known when it arises. If there is doubt of thinking with doubts now, then that is the present accumulation to be known. It’s just a nama – not yours or mine. Neither the Buddha (or KS) would ever say that doubt is ‘good’ or justified, but there are bound to be doubts about the Truths until they’ve been realized by really understanding the nature of the khandhas right now. .... <...> > What I wonder is: Did you, on your own, decided that meditation was > wrong practice and then go seek out someone who taught this? Or did > you decide that it was wrong practice after you listened to KS? ... S: I think that when I began to appreciate that my meditation practice was based on an idea of getting results with attachment and furthemore on a deep-rooted idea of self that could somehow focus and bring about such results, it became clear to me that it was not the path taught by the Buddha. For others like yourself, it may be quite different. There were a couple of things I remember hearing and reading which really helped make this become apparent to me. The first was reading about namas and rupas and appreciating at some intellectual level that this is all there are and this is what is to be known. The second was listening to a bit of a recording about sounds and how after hearing sounds we conjure up all sorts of ideas of people and things but in truth all that is heard are sounds and the rest are just images and concepts. Yes, it was KS speaking and it was my accumulations at that time to respond as I did and to drop my meditation practice on the spot. When I go walking, do yoga or Tai chi or even some breathing exercises for my cough like now, there’s no idea of doing them for any improved wholesome states or calmness as taught by the Buddha. Again, for others, it may be quite different and we can’t tell by appearances at all. What is important, however, is the understanding of dhammas no matter where or when. There’s no rule for anyone. In terms of any brain-washing and cultism etc which you referred to, anyone who has listened to recordings or known me over the years will know that I’ve been questioning every comment and detail of what KS (and anyone else) says for a very long time:). It’s the same when I read the texts – I consider and question a lot. Yes, I’m very respectful, but that’s my way when I’m with any teacher, even those I disagree with:-). ... > Does KS acknowledge that not everyone has the capability to be "dry > insight" workers and that some people need to meditate? .... S: Right, not everyone has the capability to develop any understanding of any kind, let alone satipatthana. Everyone will follow their own way and own inclinations. ..... > > Does her "Foundation for Dhamma-Study" have a meditation hall for > those who wish to practice meditation along with their dhamma study? .... S: I often see people in the main hall with their eyes closed while talks are taking place or when the hall is empty. I have no idea (and no one minds I’m sure) whether they are having a nap, focusing on their breath or planning their shopping list:). It’s also very common for meditators to come along and to raise ‘meditation’ questions or just keep quiet about their own practices and listen. Either way is fine. .... > Give these issues some thought and get back to me. I hope that I > have been nice in this post and have explained my concerns in a > understandable manner. ... S: Good questions. I’m sure my answers won’t be very satisfactory and appreciate that it’s only a matter of time before we get back into our respective Startreck roles:). Please let me know if there’s anything you wish me to clarify. Metta, Sarah p.s As Phil and I mentioned, Nina, Lodewijk and others of us will be in Bangkok in February if anyone else is able to join us there. ================================== 51919 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:09am Subject: Re: India Photos philofillet Hello Sukin > I have just finished uploading some of the India photos that I took. Thanks so much. I just got home from a very tiring day and the photos gave rise to lots of sympathetic joy. If the transcript of Lodewijk's speech is available, could someone post it? I imagine Nina will be doing so in due course. To tell the truth, I have never really wanted to go to India, but seeing those photos may have conditioned some aspiration in that direction. I was a bit shocked because it looked like Jon was poking A. Sujin with a long stick in one shot, perhaps to test her equanimity, but then I saw it was a microphone. Phil 51920 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG sarahprocter... Dear Joop (& James), --- Joop wrote: > Not only Sujin, also Buddhaghosa is the central person in -let's say > it nice - the mind of the founders of DSG. ... S: As far as I'm concerned, the Buddha 'is the central person'. To copy Swee Boon, I follow the Buddha's teachings which Buddhaghosa's commentaries help elaborate for me and which K.Sujin has helped elaborate further. Just as everything Buddhaghosa wrote was based on the texts (to my understanding0, K.Sujin has also always told me to go read and check anything in the texts themselves too. How we interpret the texts will depend on our own questioning and understanding for sure. ..... I think Buddhaghosa did > not meditate. ... S: Can we refer to bhavana or mental development rather than meditation? Then it's not limited to any time or occasion, but always refers to the present moment. ... > You know I do (formal, as an anarchist I hate that word) meditation > but it's rather new, especially for laypersons doing it. ... S: Meditation may be new but bhavana is not. So let's stick to samatha and satipatthana development. ... > And the popularity of Sujin is - in my theory - a reaction to > modernity, to globalisation. ... S: I think there's very little popularity. Only a few foreigners appreciate the opportunity to listen to her and question her each week. Very few people that listened to her when we began to do so still do. The message of other teachers with a METHOD is far more appealing:). .... > Not keeping this dimension in mind makes discussions about this theme > elusive ... ?? Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks for your other long message and extracts on the future of Theravada. I'm not sure if I can add anything more because I think that anything I'd say about any such future would just be ill-informed speculation. The more we understand about present dhammas, the more we're likely to be able to help others or the future of Theravada in our own ways and in our own language, wouldn't you agree? =================== 51921 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:34am Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self philofillet Hi Matheesha > P: He answers "it is possible, friend Udayi. Doesn't eye- > > consciousness arise in dependence on eye and forms?...If the cause > > and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness would cease > > completely and totally without remainder, could eye- consciousness be > > discerned?.. > > M: It is possible to see this mechanism in action. I have directed > friends in meditation to see this mechanism. But it requires a mind > immersed in samadhi/one-pointedness otherwise it is not possible to > pick out the seperate components because it would happen so fast. So fast, so fast. I find it hard to imagine being able to see this mechanism in action, but I am open to the possibility. Certainly I can see that I cannot see the mechanism at work in daily life, or when I do my reflection/meditation in the morning, but just knowing that the Buddha (and others) have seen it, and explained it - it's kind of...groovy or something. Miraculous? Beautiful? Awesome? I'm sure there is great respect and great lobha mixed in when I read these amazing suttas. > Often the key to gaining insight into no self is to see the dependant > nature of the dhammas arising and passing away. Many of those who come > to this understanding do so once they focus on the link between two > successive dhammas as in object, eye and eye consciosness giving rise > to the image. Again, my understanding is that this is so fast that "focussing" on it is out of the question except for people of highly developed insight. But it gives me sympathetic joy to read your description of this "key to gaining insight." > > Sometimes the understanding is superfical and after the elation > passess they find themselves to be in the same place. But if they can > see the arising and passing away in a conditioned manner, and over a > length of time, then it is proved beyond doubt, and avijja is > counteracted, the insight remains and is at deep level. They might > even marvel how it could possibly be, even though they know deep > inside that there is no self. So to a much shallower degree, something like this is going on with me. For me it is all thinking, thinking, thinking, but the thinking is becoming more refined and giving me peace of mind and a sense of marvel and awe. Nothing is proved beyond doubt, but the understanding of the way everying is conditioned is growing more firmly rooted, thought it is still all intellectual. Thanks for your feedback. Phil 51922 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for leaving DSG philofillet Hi Charles > This sounds like a good time to practice no-self/not-self, then "your" > feelings don't get hurt or .... Yes, it's funny, having an intellectual understanding of anatta has proved to be very helpful in my daily life. Things that used to make me feel down all day, perceived or real injustices, bad treatment, mean people - they don't bother me much anymore, because it seems there is less interest in my self-image, or in my rights, and this dilution of concern about self is of course conditioned by intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teaching. Of course there is still concern for self-image, that will be clinged to for a long time, I imagine - but it has been diluted, certainly. So I had no trouble whatsoever about making a fuss and quitting the group and then rejoining a couple of days later - in the past I would have fretted about looking like an idiot. But for some reason, it has been at DSG that I get irritated the most. Quite ironic, at first glance, but it makes sense. My strongest lobha these days is related to Dhamma, so that's where the strongest dosa is as well. Dosa arises when our lobha is frustrated. Thanks for your support. Phil 51923 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self matheesha333 Hi Phil, > > P: He answers "it is possible, friend Udayi. Doesn't eye- > > > consciousness arise in dependence on eye and forms?...If the > cause > > > and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness would cease > > > completely and totally without remainder, could eye- > consciousness be > > > discerned?.. > > > Certainly I can see that I cannot see the mechanism at work in > daily life, or when I do my reflection/meditation in the morning, > but just knowing that the Buddha (and others) have seen it, and > explained it - it's kind of...groovy or something. Miraculous? > Beautiful? Awesome? I'm sure there is great respect and great lobha > mixed in when I read these amazing suttas. M: Well you might be able to understand it like this. At this moment if you direct your awareness to your legs you can feel it touching the chair you are seated on. Yet you didnt feel it before even though the chair and the skin were both there. It took the vinnana as well for contact to arise. P:Miraculous? > Beautiful? Awesome? M: Indeed. The the journey inward is truly inspiring, and the biggest adventure a man can have in this lifetime. To see the pixels of reality seperately and understand that there is no image but only dots of light arising and passing away can frightening and fascinating at the same time. P:> Again, my understanding is that this is so fast that "focussing" > on it is out of the question except for people of highly developed > insight. M: It is a type of samadhi: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html M: ..the product of which is Insight, by understanding the patterns inherant upon seeing this. By concentrating upon the breath you train the mind to develop this type of samadhi. The breath is a subtle object allowing sati to increase in sensitivity towards subtle objects (which you couldnt do before). When you focus on the nimitta you are focusing on mental imagery, moving away from the material. When sensitivity has increased upto this point, if you relax and let the mind do as it pleases and watch sounds, sights sensations etc arising and passing away one after the other, you begin to see the mind/awarenss reach into the sense bases and when it reaches, sounds ,sights sensations come into being. These are not impossible things to do but very possible. If a lay person practices mindfulness of breath 2, ideally 3 hours a day he can attain jhana within a matter of months, if not weeks. The process of insight of seeing and understanding thilakkana is very quick after that -weeks if not days, based on that strong samadhi. P: So to a much shallower degree, something like this is going on > with me. For me it is all thinking, thinking, thinking, but the > thinking is becoming more refined and giving me peace of mind and a > sense of marvel and awe. M: much mudita! P:Nothing is proved beyond doubt, but the > understanding of the way everying is conditioned is growing more > firmly rooted, thought it is still all intellectual. M: I hope you will gain the deepest insight one way or the other. metta Matheesha 51924 From: wong chang li Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:56am Subject: short hello from a new member of DSG wchangli DSG Dhamma friends: I get to know DSG from my classmate who has registered as a member few weeks ago. I am a student of Chibs from Taiwan (http://www.chibs.edu.tw), interested in the field of Theravada Buddhism. At the moment I am busy on my thesis with the topic of "The Comparative Study of the Pali Version and Chinese Version of Anapanasati-samyutta"; you are welcome to let me know if you have any ideas or materials on this topic. Nice to meet all of you here. with metta, yang 51925 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah (Joop and All), Sarah: I'll just make a start here on your questions, but I think we'll need to go to and fro for sometime on them as my responses won't be satisfactory, I know. James: Your answers are satisfactory, I suppose, but they are just so gosh darn long! ;-)) Just on the issue of Right Concentration you answered with 444 words! (Using `Word' word count). I would answer with only 3 words: the four jhanas. But, really, from what I can surmise, your answer matches mine, just in a bit more complex manner. Let me try to parse your response and draw out the relevant quotations: 1. Simply put, there is concentration at every moment 2. For the concentration to be `right', the consciousness must be wholesome. 3. Now when it comes to `Right Concentration' of the eightfold path, not only does the consciousness have to be wholesome, there also has to be Right Understanding of a nama or rupa at that moment and other path factors arising. 4. Even when we refer to the development of Right Concentration in the development of calm or samatha which may eventually lead to attainment of the jhanas, it has to be accompanied by Right Understanding of that kind or level too. 5. So, like anything connected with the Buddha's teachings, it's subtle and not easy to understand moments of right and wrong concentration as I see it. James: Okay, no arguments with me. I agree, basically, with everything you say here. But you still didn't really answer my original question: How is this supposed to happen without formal meditation practice? Sarah: believe Nina raised several of your questions on the Satipatthana Sutta and in due course, I'm sure she'll be getting back to you with replies and also you'll be able to listen to the recordings later. James: Several questions? I didn't have "several" questions. I only had one question. Uh Oh, I am already starting to feel nervous! ;-)) (just kidding). Okay, I will wait for Nina's reply. Sarah: I think that when I began to appreciate that my meditation practice was based on an idea of getting results with attachment and furthemore on a deep-rooted idea of self that could somehow focus and bring about such results, it became clear to me that it was not the path taught by the Buddha. For others like yourself, it may be quite different. James: Reasonable answer and I agree. It is not the fault of the practice but the unrealistic expectations of the practitioner. Metta, James 51926 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:41am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) bardosein Hi Sarah & all, When dosa (aversion) has arisen in reaction to unpleasant feelings and sensations, I have often been instructed to have patience (khanti). I believe there are many suttas that extol the virtues of patience as an antidote to situations that could easily give rise to aversion (dosa). The Burmese have a wonderful saying that "patience leads to Nibanna". Patience is one of the 10 perfections (parami). However, from an abhidhamma perspective, how are we to understand the arising of khanti? What conditions its occurrence? How and where is it classified? Hal 51927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment (was, incredible india) jonoabb Dear Joop (and All) My first chance to post since sending messages from Delhi. My apologies for misspelling your name. I think it must have happened when I did the spell-checking of my message. Jon Jonothan Abbott wrote: >Hi Loop > >Loop wrote: > > > >>Hallo Jon >> >>I noticed that too in the message I abstracted in this one to Azita >>and the India-goers, with the subtitle " Stream entry is good enough >>for me". >> >> 51928 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kusala and akusala development (was, incredible india) jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: >Hi Jon (& Matheesha), > > >>To my understanding, panna is far more powerful than avijja; if it >>weren't then there'd be no hope for any of us! ;-)) >> > >Which is more powerful? A moment of panna, or consecutive moments of >panna? I think the latter is more powerful. > (Do you perhaps mean 'A moment of panna, or consecutive moments of avijja'?) A moment of insight development is actually a moment of kamma. As you know, each moment of kamma performed brings its result. Thus all moments of panna of the level of satipatthana will bring result, and presumably this will be in the form of more conditions for the development of the path: birth as a human at a time when the teachings are extant, association with people who can explain the dhamma to us, etc. It is because of the development of the path in previous lives that we have found the dhamma again in this lifetime. The same applies of course to akusala kamma performed. But moments of avijja are not per se akusala kamma. True, each moment of avijja adds to the tendency to more avijja, and the accumulated tendency may in turn condition akusala kamma, and that akusala kamma must one day bring its result, but this is happening all the time even in those who are developing the path. >>I'm glad to see your appeal to the suttas, as I think these are the >>ultimate authority on these questions. Can you give a sutta >>reference for your proposition that 'The only way to do it in the >>time span which the Buddha mentioned is through formal practice.' >> >> > >I think the career of a monk is to engage in "formal practice" as >described in DN 22. That is a monk's profession. > I think you are referring in particular to the passage about anapanasati. That has never been the practice of all monks, even in the time of the Buddha, and as far as I know that particular passage has never been identified as key to the monks' life. It is my understanding that Right Livelihood for a monk is to do with the observance of the vinaya and the performance of his daily alms round. >>In another post you said that enlightenment could be obtained more >>quickly by first attaining jhana. Is this something found in the >>suttas? >> > >Of course it is! > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html > >"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as >they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is >present? > >"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant' >... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... >'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye- >contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither- >pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > >"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant' >... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The >body is inconstant"... > >"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is >inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is >inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises >in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as >pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > >"So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things >as they actually are present." >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > I do not question the fact that monks were encouraged by the Buddha to develop samatha, but we need to understand this in context. If a monk, in whom samatha is well developed, develops both samatha and insight he has the prospect of attaining enlightenment based on jhana, and that is a higher form of enlightenment. But it is another thing altogether to say that for you and me and everyone, regardless of their lay status or lack of developed samatha and insight, enlightenment will be attained quicker by developing samatha first. As far as I know, there is no sutta that covers this scenario. >And we all know that the Buddha defined Right Concentration as the >jhanas and that he also said that the "knowledge & vision of things as >they actually are present" leads to Right Release. > Yes, but to understand this we need to know what is meant by Right Concentration. Right Concentration is a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, that is, it is one of the 8 factors arising at the moment of path consciousness. At that moment of path consciousness, the concentration is of the level of jhana. The path factors are not a list of factors to be 'practised' or developed individually. If that were so, then someone who did not accept the teachings but who could attain jhana would be developing Right Concentration (and that same person could likewise develop most or all of the other 7 path factors). No, the path factors are path factors if and only if they arise together, and their descriptions must be read accordingly. The word 'Noble' is a translation of the Pali 'ariya'. There is nothing 'ariya' about attaining jhana (although it is kusala of a high degree). Only the concentration that accompanies enlightenment or, at the mundane level, that accompanies moments of insight development, is 'Right Concentration'. I think the important question here is whether there is any samatha/jhana prerequisite for the development of satipatthana/mundane insight. I am not aware of anything in the suttas that would suggest there is. And if that's the case, then there is no need to be concerned about attaining any particular level of attainment of samatha as far as the development of satipatthana/insight at the present moment is concerned. (Of course I know there are many who would disagree with the foregoing on the basis of their personal experience.) >But I also know that you will still disagree. > 'Fraid so ;-)) But happy to discuss further. >>I am somewhat puzzled by the idea mentioned here that kusala >>developed in previous lifetimes is not carried forward as an >>accumulated tendency, and I'd be interested to hear you further >>on this. What is the basis for this, and is it the case for all >>kusala, as you understand it, or is panna an exception to the >>general rule? Are kusala qualities different from akusala >>qualities in this regard? If so, perhaps that is something >>mentioned in the suttas. >> > >I have never read in any suttas where the Buddha said that panna is an >underlying kusala tendency. > >Jon, is panna really an underlying kusala tendency just as ignorance >is an underlying akusala tendency (anusaya)? > I think in the suttas panna of the level of satipatthana is treated as kamma, and thus is generally spoken of in terms of punna (merit), rather than as a tendency that is accumulated. But to my understanding, all tendencies both kusala and aksuala accumulate, as do also mental factors such as sanna (this is what makes each individual different). Jon 51929 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon and all - > > >>Jon: >>Yes, I've read their posts. As you will have noticed, there are some >>differences between my reply and theirs. No doubt we'll get around to discussing those differences at some stage. No hurry, though ;-)) >> >> > >Tep: > >I believe we do not need any further discussion between us, since the >other posts have already explained those "differences" to you in more >detail and better than I possibly can. > > Well, I didn't mean to suggest this. I think each person should bring up and discuss their own ideas. So please feel free to continue the thread ;-)) Jon 51930 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment jonoabb Hi Steve seisen_au wrote: >Hi Jon and All, > >Would you say lokuttarajjhana is a requisite for enlightenment? > > I would say that just a lokuttara panna is the panna that accompanies the enlightenment consciousness, so lokuttarajhana is the concentration (ekaggata cetasika) that accompanies the enlightenment consciousness. Does that answer your question? >Steve > >Ps. Welcome back. > > Thanks, Steve. Good to see you on the list. Jon 51931 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Joop), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop (& James), > > --- Joop wrote: > ..... > I think Buddhaghosa did > > not meditate. > ... > S: Can we refer to bhavana or mental development rather than meditation? > Then it's not limited to any time or occasion, but always refers to the > present moment. > ... James: The statement was in reference to meditation, which refers to a specific time and occasion. "On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Kosalans in a certain forest thicket. Now at that time the brahman Navakammika ("Builder") Bharadvaja was getting some work done in that forest thicket. He saw the Blessed One sitting under a sala tree -- his legs folded crosswise, his body held erect, with mindfulness set to the fore." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-017.html James: In this sutta, the Buddha was meditating, and, from what I understand, Buddhaghosa didn't do this. > > You know I do (formal, as an anarchist I hate that word) meditation > > but it's rather new, especially for laypersons doing it. > ... > S: Meditation may be new but bhavana is not. So let's stick to samatha and > satipatthana development. > ... James: Meditation is not "new". Meditation for laypeople is a relatively recent phenomenon, but that isn't due to the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha encouraged laypeople to meditate also: "One time Anathapindika went with several hundred lay followers to the Buddha, who spoke to them thus: "To be sure, you householders provide the monastic community with clothing, food, shelter, and medicine, but you should not be satisfied with that. May you also from time to time strive to enter and abide in the joy of (inner meditative) seclusion!"7 After these words the venerable Sariputta added the following: "At a time when the noble disciple dwells in the joy of (meditative) seclusion, five things do not exist in him: there is no pain and grief connected with the senses;8 no pleasure and gladness connected with the senses; no pain and grief connected with what is unwholesome;9 no pleasure and gladness connected with what is unwholesome;10 no pain and grief connected with what is wholesome."11 (AN V.176) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel334.html James: Notice here, Sarah, that the Buddha uses the phrasing "from time to time". He obviously was referring to "meditation" which involves a specific time and occassion. > > And the popularity of Sujin is - in my theory - a reaction to > > modernity, to globalisation. > ... > S: I think there's very little popularity. Only a few foreigners > appreciate the opportunity to listen to her and question her each week. > Very few people that listened to her when we began to do so still do. The > message of other teachers with a METHOD is far more appealing:). > .... James: I doubt that KS is extremely popular either, and wouldn't want to be. That wouldn't be the goal of her type of group. From "Identifying a Cult": "The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy." http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult > > Not keeping this dimension in mind makes discussions about this theme > > elusive > ... > ?? > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James 51932 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon and Hal, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >>Hi Hal >> >>Thanks for citing this passage. Of course, the passage >>describes one of the higher stages of insight, while our >>interest is beginning levels of insight. >> > >James: Whose "our interest" are you describing? Not mine. My >interest is full insight, not just beginning levels. > > > >>Beginning insight is not about seeing individual moments of dhammas, as I understand it. >> > >James: Yes, I would agree with you here; but again, why this >emphasis on "beginning insight"? It is quite possible to see >individual moments of dhammas for those willing to make the effort. > "Beginning insight" is what needs to be understood first ;-)) I do not think it's possible for a beginner to see consecutive individual moments of dhammas, and I'm not even sure it's possible for all enlightened persons. Jon 51933 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG bardosein Hi Joop, James and Sarah, Isn't this question concerning Buddhagoshosa rather anachronistic? What is required of human beings in this modern world is no doubt very different for those born during the period of Buddhagoshosa's lifetime. As Ledi Sayadaw states in his _Bodhipakkhiya Dipani_, there are four types of persons: Ugghatitannu; Vipancitannu; Neyya; and Padaparama. In the time of the Buddha, an _Ugghattiannu_ type person was able to "attain the Paths and Fruits through a mere hearing of a concise discourse" (p.1). The Vipancitannu was not able to do so, but was able "to attain the Paths and Fruits when ...[a]short discourse is expounded to him at some length" (_The Requisites of Enlightenment_, pp.1-2). Neither of these types of individuals exist today: "After the passing of the first thousand years (of the present Buddha Sasana), which constituted the period of the Patisambhidha-patta Arahant (Arahant possessing Analytical Knowledge), the period of the present Buddha Sasana comprises the times of the Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals alone. At the present day only these two classes of individuals remain" (p.9). Buddhaghosa lived during the early part of 5th century A.D. during end of the first thousand years of the Buddha's dispensation. If so, then he could well have been a Vipancitannu individual, making the question concerning his meditation practises a mute one. In our modern age, only the Neyya and Padaparama class individuals exist, and only the Neyya type persons are capable of realizing the Paths and Fruits in this very lifetime. Such an "individual who has not the capability of attaining the Paths and Fruits through the hearing of a short discourse or when expounded to him at some length, but is one for whom it is necessary to study and take careful note of the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for days, months, and years, in order that he may attain the Paths and Fruits" (p.2). Hal 51934 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment nidive Hi Joop, > To me it's enough to get stream-enterer, I'm not that ambitious > wanting to be an arahant. The Buddha often spoke about the benefits of obtaining this dustless stainless Dhamma eye in this very life. May you attain the stream. > Only I think the term 'householder' is to oldfashioned to use now, > even when it's used in the sutta; of myself I think something > like 'partly renunciating'; does that make sense to you? Yes, it makes sense to me. Regards, Swee Boon 51935 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:03am Subject: Re: India Photos buddhistmedi... Hi, Sukin - I really like your excellent India photo album that I watched all the pictures from the first to the last (via the slideshow). It was exciting and I felt as if I was there where the actions were. I appreciate your hard work ! I was happy to see Khun Sujin, Sarah, Jon (his sideview only!), Azita, and Chris for the first time. The Taj Residency looks great. The Sariputta Cave is a little dark; I wish I could see the inside. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > I have just finished uploading some of the India photos that I took. 51936 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - > > > >Tep: > > > >I believe we do not need any further discussion between us, since the > >other posts have already explained those "differences" to you in more > >detail and better than I possibly can. > > > > > > Well, I didn't mean to suggest this. I think each person should bring > up and discuss their own ideas. So please feel free to continue the > thread ;-)) > > Jon > Thank you much for persuading me to continue the thread. It may sound incredible that I have found Matheesha's, Swee's and Hal's "ideas" quite agreeable with mine. So I feel it is kind of redundant for me to "echo" them. Sincerely, Tep ======= P.S. I saw you appeared in only one photo in the Sukin's India album. It would be nice, I think, if one more photo that shows your face fully (rather than the sideview) may be added to this album ! 51937 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kusala and akusala development (was, incredible india) nidive Hi Jon, I don't think our discussion is going to be fruitful. But just want to note this point. > It is my understanding that Right Livelihood for a monk is to do > with the observance of the vinaya and the performance of his daily > alms round. The observance of the Vinaya is to support the "formal practice" as laid out in the whole of DN 22. It can be said that everything in the Vinaya revolves around DN 22. True bhikkhus do not eat alms food for nothing. They eat alms food to maintain their bodies so that they have the energy to undertake the "formal practice" as laid out in the whole of DN 22. Regards, Swee Boon 51938 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (and Math) - >Phil (#51921): For me it is all thinking, thinking, thinking, but the thinking is becoming more refined and giving me peace of mind and a sense of marvel and awe. Nothing is proved beyond doubt, but the understanding of the way everying is conditioned is growing more firmly rooted, thought it is still all intellectual. Tep: Have you tried stop thinking and start meditating according to AN IV.41 (as suggested by Matheesha)? "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness." [An IV.41, Samadhi Sutta] By this sutta it does not require a lightening-fast mind to know & see the ultimate realities in every single moment. Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Matheesha > 51939 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop (& James), Thanks for your other long message and extracts on the future of > Theravada. I'm not sure if I can add anything more because I think that anything I'd say about any such future would just be ill-informed > speculation. The more we understand about present dhammas, the more we're likely to be able to help others or the future of Theravada in our own ways and in our own language, wouldn't you agree? > =================== > Dear Sarah No, I don't agree. We are ill-informed about the future at the same level as we are ill-informed about the past. Not only 'present dhammas': that on the individual level. But we need also sociological imagination about the future of Theravada. If you prefer not to react on my little essay about the furure and my question on Nyanaponika's statement: so be it. Metta Joop 51940 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ======= > > P.S. I saw you appeared in only one photo in the Sukin's India album. It > would be nice, I think, if one more photo that shows your face fully > (rather than the sideview) may be added to this album ! > Jon appears in several photos. There is even a photo of him all by himself sitting in a chair with a baseball cap on. You must have opened only one of the folders. There are 10 folders and each of them have a variety of pictures. Go searching again to see Jon! ;-)) (Instead of "Find Waldo" it will be "Find Jon" ;-)) BTW, I don't see any photos of you in the groups member album for DSG! Why don't you add a photo? I like to picture who I am chatting with. (This also goes for you other frequent posters: Matheesha, Swee Boon, Ken H., etc.). Don't be shy! ;-)) Metta, James 51941 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) kenhowardau Hi James, . . . J: > You write something here which is very revealing and which I want to focus on: "How can we acknowledge that and still get on with our own lives?" This reveals a view of the dhamma as a `coping mechanism', ------------------------------------- I agree that the Dhamma is not a mere coping mechanism. I was making a subtle point that I think you may have missed. In the world that is known to ordinary folk - uninstructed in the Dhamma - a coping mechanism is essential. How else can we justify living in luxury while others starve? How can we enjoy life's pleasures knowing there are traumatised children all around us? We can't! Not unless we to pretend the suffering isn't happening or we rationalise it or we find some other dishonest coping mechanism to shut out the 'awful truth.' A noble learner gets on with his life knowing full well that people are suffering. So, by all conventional wisdom, he must have a coping mechanism. However, the Dhamma is not conventional wisdom. It can, for example, be likened to a path but only in a totally new way of understanding the word 'path.' While a conventional path starts in an unsatisfactory moment, progresses through various intermediate moments and ends in a satisfactory moment, the Buddha's path takes place in a single moment. Similarly, if we want to liken the bhikkhu's way to a coping mechanism, we need a totally new way of understanding that. There is only the present moment - any coping that is going to be done will need to be done in the present moment. --------------------------------------- J: > and the dhamma isn't a coping mechanism- the dhamma is a means of transcendence. ---------------------------------------- Well, yes, but the word transcendence can have a conventional meaning (as in 'transcendental meditation' for example). When we are stuck with the conventional meaning, we have the idea of three or more stages - the pre-transcendent, the transcending and the transcended. With that conventional understanding, we would be no more correct in saying the Dhamma was a 'means of transcendence' than in saying the Dhamma was a 'mere coping mechanism.' ------------------------------------------- J: > Your answer to your question is: "The answer, I feel sure, is to understand conditioned dhammas." What I read here is "Think that no one, no person, really exists and then there is no more suffering." ------------------------------------------- That, I admit, would be a mere coping mechanism. And it would be devoid of metta in a time when metta was needed. I didn't mean to say, "When you become aware of suffering children just remember they are only nama and rupa, and all the guilt will go away." But I was trying to be a bit clever: I was trying to tie satipatthana in with conventional well being, and I may have overreached my capabilities. :-) The idea of being good so that we can benefit from our goodness in a future life is dangerous territory. It flirts with the idea of an abiding self. Perhaps I should have said, 'If the suffering children had only practised dana sila and bhavana in their previous lives, then they might be able to practise it now." But that doesn't sound very compassionate, does it? :-) -------------------------- J: > I could be mistaken in my interpretation, but if I am not, then that is another coping mechanism. I have a different answer: Acknowledge that right now there are millions of children suffering in the same way that I did. Generate all of the Brahma Viharas for them: Metta- to feel the love for them that they aren't receiving; Compassion- to sympathize with their pain; Sympathetic Joy- to feel joy in whatever small achievements they accomplish; and Equanimity- to calmly realize/accept that their situation is the result of their individual kamma. This is what I believe the Buddha taught. --------------------- It is certainly closer to what the Buddha taught than, "Just think of them as nama and rupa and the guilt will go away." :-) But metta is simply a mental state that arises when a Buddha (for example) thinks about the concept, 'living beings.' I don't think metta involves wanting the present reality to be other than it is. If there is no metta now, then panna can know there is no metta. Then there will be right understanding. To do something (some ritual) in order to bring about metta is, in my opinion, wrong understanding. ------------------------------- <. . .> Ken H.: > > Here at DSG we can learn a method by which kusala consciousness and the peace of mind that accompanies it can be conditioned to arise at any time regardless of prevailing circumstances. >........ James: > What "method" is that???? I have been under the impression that you consider all methods to be rites and rituals. ------------------------------- In all my theorising (about suffering children and what could be done for them), I did run the risk of confusing the Middle Way with a conventional method. But it isn't of course. It can be described in conventional terms - path, way, practice, method (coping mechanism?) - but there is nothing conventional about it. Thanks for warning me. :-) Ken H 51942 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: incredible india / Aware of the Present Moment buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > "Beginning insight" is what needs to be understood first ;-)) James: Yes, I agree. Beginning means first. ;-)) I do not > think it's possible for a beginner to see consecutive individual moments > of dhammas James: I don't think so either. I didn't suggest that beginners could accomplish this. It would have to be after several years of practice. , and I'm not even sure it's possible for all enlightened persons. James: Sure, it may not be possible for ALL enlightened persons, if they haven't developed the mental concentration necessary. > > Jon > Metta, James 51943 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:19pm Subject: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > . . . > J: > You write something here which is very revealing and which I > want to focus on: "How can we acknowledge that and still get on with > our own lives?" This reveals a view of the dhamma as a `coping > mechanism', > ------------------------------------- > > I agree that the Dhamma is not a mere coping mechanism. I was making > a subtle point that I think you may have missed. James: Yes, I did miss your point, and I'm not so sure I understand your main point in this post either. In the world that is > known to ordinary folk - uninstructed in the Dhamma - a coping > mechanism is essential. How else can we justify living in luxury > while others starve? How can we enjoy life's pleasures knowing there > are traumatised children all around us? We can't! Not unless we to > pretend the suffering isn't happening or we rationalise it or we find > some other dishonest coping mechanism to shut out the 'awful truth.' James: Some people do that; some people are just selfish; other people are ignorant. > > A noble learner gets on with his life knowing full well that people > are suffering. So, by all conventional wisdom, he must have a coping > mechanism. James: Okay, now you lost me. I thought you just said that the dhamma isn't a coping mechanism (which I agree with), but now you are saying that a 'noble learner', which I assume means a dhamma learner, needs a coping mechanism. You lost me. > > However, the Dhamma is not conventional wisdom. It can, for example, > be likened to a path but only in a totally new way of understanding > the word 'path.' While a conventional path starts in an > unsatisfactory moment, progresses through various intermediate > moments and ends in a satisfactory moment, the Buddha's path takes > place in a single moment. James: This I don't agree with. The Buddha described his path as "Lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle, and lovely in the end". Obviously, to me, that demonstrates that the Buddha's path is supposed to progress through stages, not only happen all at once in single mind moments. > > Similarly, if we want to liken the bhikkhu's way to a coping > mechanism, we need a totally new way of understanding that. There is > only the present moment - any coping that is going to be done will > need to be done in the present moment. James: Hmmm...weird idea: single moment coping. :-) > > --------------------------------------- > J: > and the dhamma isn't a coping mechanism- the dhamma is a > means of transcendence. > ---------------------------------------- > > Well, yes, but the word transcendence can have a conventional > meaning (as in 'transcendental meditation' for example). James: That isn't at all what I meant. I meant as a means of gnosis. > > When we are stuck with the conventional meaning, we have the idea of > three or more stages - the pre-transcendent, the transcending and the > transcended. With that conventional understanding, we would be no > more correct in saying the Dhamma was a 'means of transcendence' than > in saying the Dhamma was a 'mere coping mechanism.' James: Again, I don't agree. The dhamma does occur in stages according to the Buddha. > > ------------------------------------------- > J: > Your answer to your question is: "The answer, I feel sure, is to > understand conditioned dhammas." What I read here is "Think that no > one, no person, really exists and then there is no more suffering." > ------------------------------------------- > > That, I admit, would be a mere coping mechanism. And it would be > devoid of metta in a time when metta was needed. > > I didn't mean to say, "When you become aware of suffering children > just remember they are only nama and rupa, and all the guilt will go > away." But I was trying to be a bit clever: I was trying to tie > satipatthana in with conventional well being, and I may have > overreached my capabilities. :-) James: That's okay. I wasn't quite sure if you were saying that or not. It seemed rather heartless- which isn't you. > > The idea of being good so that we can benefit from our goodness in a > future life is dangerous territory. It flirts with the idea of an > abiding self. James: Well, the Buddha taught this very thing in several suttas. He often taught how good behavior will result in a favorable rebirth. I couldn't even give you the suttas because there are hundreds! Perhaps I should have said, 'If the suffering children > had only practised dana sila and bhavana in their previous lives, > then they might be able to practise it now." But that doesn't sound > very compassionate, does it? :-) James: Well, I don't know. We do have to admit that their misfortune is the result of previous kamma. I admit that my misfortune was the result of previous kamma. Some may try to talk me out of this with "Well, you never know." But, of course I know. But no reason to be bitter about it. Just try to generate good kamma in this lifetime so that such a terrible situation doesn't happen again. > > -------------------------- > J: > I could be mistaken in my interpretation, but if I am not, > then that is another coping mechanism. > > I have a different answer: Acknowledge that right now there are > millions of children suffering in the same way that I did. Generate > all of the Brahma Viharas for them: Metta- to feel the love for them > that they aren't receiving; Compassion- to sympathize with their > pain; Sympathetic Joy- to feel joy in whatever small achievements > they accomplish; and Equanimity- to calmly realize/accept that their > situation is the result of their individual kamma. This is what I > believe the Buddha taught. > --------------------- > > It is certainly closer to what the Buddha taught than, "Just think of > them as nama and rupa and the guilt will go away." :-) James: Thank you. > > But metta is simply a mental state that arises when a Buddha (for > example) thinks about the concept, 'living beings.' I don't think > metta involves wanting the present reality to be other than it is. > If there is no metta now, then panna can know there is no metta. Then > there will be right understanding. To do something (some ritual) in > order to bring about metta is, in my opinion, wrong understanding. James: To do some empty ritual (like dancing in the moonlight) to bring about metta is wrong understanding. But practicing the Brahma- Viharas isn't wrong understanding. > > ------------------------------- > <. . .> > Ken H.: > > Here at DSG we can learn a method by which kusala > consciousness and the peace of mind that accompanies it can be > conditioned to arise at any time regardless of prevailing > circumstances. > >........ > > James: > What "method" is that???? I have been under the impression > that you consider all methods to be rites and rituals. > ------------------------------- > > In all my theorising (about suffering children and what could be done > for them), I did run the risk of confusing the Middle Way with a > conventional method. But it isn't of course. It can be described in > conventional terms - path, way, practice, method (coping mechanism?) - > but there is nothing conventional about it. > > Thanks for warning me. :-) James: You're welcome. Don't go switching teams on me without due warning! ;-)) > > Ken H > Metta, James 51944 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) corvus121 Hi again James Comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Andrew: In a way, I think that's my point. "Should" implies > choice. "You should do this rather than do that." > > James: I disagree. "You should do this rather than do that," > doesn't imply a choice. When there is a choice there is no "should"- > just do whatever you want. Dictionary.com defines should as, "Used > to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note." "Should" is used in that case because of the availability of alternatives i.e. sending her a note or not sending her a note; and the means of communicating (e.g. by note, phone call, email etc). So, "should" implies choice. > Andrew: When there is Right Thinking, there can be no choice, no > contradiction. > > James: I disagree. There are two levels of Right Thinking: Mundane > and Supermundane. Mundane Right Thinking involves choice (and I > don't think this issue really centers on "choice", it centers on > duty or obligation.) You're confusing me, James. In terms of Dhamma, who bears the duty or obligation and to whom is the duty or obligation owed? > Andrew: No point in getting worked up about differing views. After > all, they *are* just views. > > James: I hope I haven't gotten "worked up" during this exchange. I > don't have any great hope of changing your view, but I might be able > to influence the views of lurker readers through this exchange. James, the tone of the above is a bit evangelical, don't you think? I know some DSG members have made jokes in the past about "converting" other members, but I thought one of the useful things to come out of Phil's recent 'dust up' was how unhelpful and negative it is to put pressure on other members to identify with a 'camp' or 'move' from one 'camp' to another. Perhaps it's better to restrict ourselves to sharing and exploring views with some detachment. I feel comfortable saying this. Although I'm not a formal meditator, I have advised newbies to the list to try formal meditation out for themselves. I don't see 'my views' as permanent at all. Bye for now Andrew T 51945 From: "Hal" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:31pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) bardosein > "....I thought one of the useful things to come out of Phil's recent 'dust up' was how unhelpful and negative it is to put pressure on other members to identify with a 'camp' or 'move' from one 'camp' to another. Perhaps it's better to restrict ourselves to sharing and exploring views with some detachment. I feel comfortable saying this. Although I'm not a formal meditator, I have advised newbies to the list to try formal meditation out for themselves. I don't see 'my views' as permanent at all. > > Bye for now > Andrew T > Hi Andrew T, Well said! I appreciate your reminder. The discursive nature of the discussions on this forum, has a natural tendency towards to an "us versus them" perspective. We should not forget this. At the same time, the tensions created by opposing views can help to clarify our own perspectives, so that we are better able to explore them with "some detachment" and eventually let them go. So long we don't forget your reminder, I don't think we need to "restrict ourselves" but rather, allow ourselves the freedom to reveal our viewpoints through the dialectical process. Hal 51946 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:25pm Subject: Source of What ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The 12 Sense Sources are the main source of Suffering! 1: The eye is a source of Suffering... 2: Forms are a source of Suffering... 3: The ear is a source of Suffering... 4: Sounds are a source of Suffering... 5: The nose is a source of Suffering... 6: Scents are a source of Suffering... 7: The tongue is a source of Suffering... 8: Flavours are a source of Suffering... 9: The body is a source of Suffering... 10: Tangibles are a source of Suffering... 11: The mind is a source of Suffering... 12: Mental phenomena are a source of Suffering. Why so ? Because, whether they give rise to a pleasant, painful or a neutral experience, this will always change, fade away, be lost & vanish...!!! This change takes place even at the very moment of the experience! Sensing is the soil in which greed and craving takes root and grow... Like the chronic morphinist cannot understand nor accept, that to be clean, without using drugs, is better & more happy on long-term, even so can the habitual hedonist -delighting in any sense pleasure- neither understand nor accept, that renunciation & withdrawal from all sense experience, is far better and more blissful on the long term... Urging for sense pleasure, one gains only ever more frustration & pain! Seeing & knowing no other happiness, the hedonist runs headlong back to rebirth, ageing, decay, sickness, change, Death and Suffering Again... Again & again, life after life, again & again, universe after universe !!! Like a rat in a carrousel, blinded by ignorance and bound by craving, do beings, in this awful round of rebirth called Samsara, suffer repeatedly! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <..> 51947 From: "seisen_au" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment seisen_au Hi Jon, Sarah and All, Jon, Thanks for the reply, more questions and comments below.. >Jon wrote: > I would say that just a lokuttara panna is the panna that accompanies > the enlightenment consciousness, so lokuttarajhana is the concentration > (ekaggata cetasika) that accompanies the enlightenment consciousness. > > Does that answer your question? > > Jon I'm not sure.. In the Abhidhammattha Sangha (Narada p.128) it has: "in the 8 types* of supramundane first jhana types of consciousness 36 factors enter into combination" One of the 36 factors is ekaggata cetasika. Same for the 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th (supramundane) jhana consciousness (jhaanikacitta). It seems to me to be describing a `jhana citta' rather than singling out a specific cetasika. I'm thinking that Magga and Phala cittas are supramundane jhana cittas with Nibbana as object. Sarah, do you have any ref's that state that magga/phala cittas are not appana (absorption)? My feeling at the moment is that because lokuttaracittas seem to be a type of jhana citta, then magga and phala are most probably appana cittas? View Straightening replies most welcome :) Steve *8 types of supramundane first jhana consciousness: Stream enterer path and fruition citta One-returner path and fruition citta Non-returner path and fruition citta Arahant path and fruition citta 51948 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > James, the tone of the above is a bit evangelical, don't you think? I > know some DSG members have made jokes in the past about "converting" > other members, but I thought one of the useful things to come out of > Phil's recent 'dust up' was how unhelpful and negative it is to put > pressure on other members to identify with a 'camp' or 'move' from > one 'camp' to another. Perhaps it's better to restrict ourselves to > sharing and exploring views with some detachment. I feel comfortable > saying this. Although I'm not a formal meditator, I have advised > newbies to the list to try formal meditation out for themselves. I > don't see 'my views' as permanent at all. > > Bye for now > Andrew T > I have read this post and I appreciate your feedback. However, I don't want to respond at this time. I believe that any response would enflame a now quiet and peaceful environment, and I would like it to stay that way for a bit longer. ;-)) Metta, James 51949 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self philofillet Hi Tep > Tep: Have you tried stop thinking and start meditating I am meditating again in the morning, I guess you could call it, but it is just thinking. I focus on a sutta and soak in the implications in a fairly concentrated way. Just thinking, but brings me back quite often to the sutta during the day. according to AN > IV.41 (as suggested by Matheesha)? > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, > known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, > known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to > him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. > This is the development of concentration that, when developed > &pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness." [An IV.41, Samadhi Sutta] Again, if it were me, this would just be thinking. As far as I know, this sutta shows us the case of a monk who has reached at least the level of insight known as udayabbhaya-nnana, "knowledge of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa", one of the Maha- viapassana-nnana. That ain't me. You and Matheesha have attained such a degree of insight? Mudita! I would like from now on to have mudita for others' attainments rather than trying to prove them to be false, which I can't do anyways. Of course, we can't choose to have mudita any old time. But I have been feeling a lot of it related to Dhamma since I saw those India photos. As for thinking about this sutta, observing the way feelings, for example, are rising and falling, sure, I can see it's helpful. As long as I know that I am just thinking about the concepts of the khandas rather than directly understanding them in the way shown in the vipassana-nnanas. (The first one we can attain is namarupa- pariccheda-nnana, knowing rupa from nama - *really* knowing it. I'm just copying that from a book.) The danger, in my opinion, is mistaking a lot of refined thinking for something more profound. > > By this sutta it does not require a lightening-fast mind to know & see the > ultimate realities in every single moment. True for you? Mudita! For me, there is confidence gained from knowing that I don't know ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) in every single moment and in fact not in any moment, yet, but can benefit by understanding them intellectually in a way that just might condition knowing them more directly some day down the road. I really do find even thinking about Dhamma during daily life is helpful. The Buddha helps people of different degrees of insight in different ways, as we know. Phil 51950 From: "D." Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? djimpa2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > Friends: > > The 12 Sense Sources are the main source of Suffering! > > 1: The eye is a source of Suffering... > 2: Forms are a source of Suffering... > 3: The ear is a source of Suffering... > 4: Sounds are a source of Suffering... > 5: The nose is a source of Suffering... > 6: Scents are a source of Suffering... > 7: The tongue is a source of Suffering... > 8: Flavours are a source of Suffering... > 9: The body is a source of Suffering... > 10: Tangibles are a source of Suffering... > 11: The mind is a source of Suffering... > 12: Mental phenomena are a source of Suffering. > > Why so ? > Because, whether they give rise to a pleasant, painful or a neutral > experience, this will always change, fade away, be lost & vanish...!!! > This change takes place even at the very moment of the experience! > Sensing is the soil in which greed and craving takes root and grow... > Like the chronic morphinist cannot understand nor accept, that to > be clean, without using drugs, is better & more happy on long-term, > even so can the habitual hedonist -delighting in any sense pleasure- > neither understand nor accept, that renunciation & withdrawal from > all sense experience, is far better and more blissful on the long term... > Urging for sense pleasure, one gains only ever more frustration & pain! > Seeing & knowing no other happiness, the hedonist runs headlong back > to rebirth, ageing, decay, sickness, change, Death and Suffering Again... > Again & again, life after life, again & again, universe after universe !!! > Like a rat in a carrousel, blinded by ignorance and bound by craving, do > beings, in this awful round of rebirth called Samsara, suffer repeatedly! > Dear Bikkhu Samahita If you call the 6 doors and the 6 objects of grasping the source of suffering, i like to quote something from the Abhidharmakosabhasyam, by Vasubandu, Vol 2 Chapter 3 page 409. ......in fact to the Arhats, sensation is not a cause of desire: from whence we conclude that sensation is a cause of desire only if it is defiled, associated with ignorance. Contact, when it is not accompanied by error, is not a cause of this defiled sensation; contact accompanied by error is not produced in an Arhat who is free from ignorance; thus the contact that (Skt. pratiyasamutpäda)=having attained appearance, indicates as the cause of sensation, a cause of desire, is the contact that is accompaned by ignorance.quote end We can conclude, that not the 12 sources are the cause of suffering, but ignorance, incorrect judgement which cause ignorance, is the primordial cause of suffering. Thus, ignorance causes the 12 sources are the end of a chain of (Skt. karma), the basis to be able to experience suffering but not the initial cause of the all. 51951 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:20am Subject: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Joop, James and Sarah, > > Isn't this question concerning Buddhagoshosa rather anachronistic? Hallo Hal, and all I think the answer is: No. But it is not a good question for DSG, it's a good question for a more scholarly discussion-forum, oriented on the history of buddhism, as objective as possible. This reaction is in line with my message #51891 (The future of Theravada-Buddhism). "What is required of human beings in this modern world is no doubt very different for those born during the period of Buddhagoshosa's lifetime." I agree with that. I think we can skip Buddhaghoasa and ask a more general question: 'What has changed the last 2500 years in the history of the human species?' You will use other words, behind my question there is another one: can we combine the language and ways of reasoning of the Dhamma with that of social science, including history ? You quoted Ledi Sayadaw "In our modern age, only the Neyya and Padaparama class individuals exist, and only the Neyya type persons are capable of realizing the Paths and Fruits in this very lifetime. Such an individual who has not the capability of attaining the Paths and Fruits through the hearing of a short discourse or when expounded to him at some length, but is one for whom it is necessary to study and take careful note of the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for days, months, and years, in order that he may attain the Paths and Fruits" (p.2). I could not check if this is really based on the Suttas, or that it's (only) based on Commentaries. But still my question is: what has changed? Something in the human species: mankind got and gets - in the spiritual dimension - more and more stupid. To say it clear: I don't believe that, there is no proof at all for it (not in the opposite too). Was there a percentage of human beings 2500 years ago (in India) able to awaken after hearing a short discourse; and is that percentage today zero? What has happened: are we to wealthy? Has there happened something that can be explained by evolutionary theory? Is it a change in the character-formation of humans that can be explained by the mechanisms of the Abhidhamma? The world today is very different from that of 2500 years ago and that of 1500 years ago: not declined but changed. We live in another 'spiritual culture'. Maybe the conclusion of Ledi Sayadaw and you is right; it fact you are saying two things: - Today "… it is necessary to study and take careful note of the sermon and the exposition": I agree, we don't get this things together with our mothermilk so to say. A condition is that "sermon and the exposition" had to be translated for the way we live today. And more than translated: the Suttas can still do their work today, but the introductionary texts (the word 'exposition' itself is already to oldfashioned) had to be modern. And I miss something: what is the role of ritual and in howfar will devotion play a role in Theravada now and in the future? - "… and then to practise the provisions contained therein for days, months, and years, in order that he may attain …". I agree, with two remarks: (a) practise can be (formal) meditation plus living according the NEP in daily life; and (b) it's totally unpredictable if it will take a day or years. Metta Joop 51952 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? bardosein Hi Joop, Thanks for your comments. Perhaps the question is no, and as you say, it is a historical question not an abhidhamma one. Concerning the four classes of individuals, Ledi Sayadaw cites the Puggala-Pannatti, 160 and the Anguttara Nikaya (The Fours, No. 133). Ledi Sayadaw also says: "the five thousand years of the present Buddha Sasana constitute, all of them, the Age of the Saints. This age of Saints will continue to exist so long as the Tipitakas (canonical scriptures) remain in the world" (p.10). I have no idea what the scriptural source is for the idea of the Buddha's 5000 year dispensation and the nature of its demise. From an abhidhamma perspective, couldn't the notion of "accumulations" explain the loss of the first two classes of persons in our present age? Hal 51953 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? nidive Hi D. (djimpa2002@y...) & Bhikkhu Samahita, > We can conclude, that not the 12 sources are the cause of suffering, > but ignorance, incorrect judgement which cause ignorance, is the > primordial cause of suffering. > Thus, ignorance causes the 12 sources are the end of a chain of > (Skt. karma), the basis to be able to experience suffering but not > the initial cause of the all. I see two kinds of dukkha, "active" and "passive". Delight for the eye is "active" dukkha. Delight for forms is "active" dukkha. Delight for the ear is "active" dukkha. Delight for sounds is "active" dukkha. Delight for the nose is "active" dukkha. Delight for scents is "active" dukkha. Delight for the tongue is "active" dukkha. Delight for flavours is "active" dukkha. Delight for the body is "active" dukkha. Delight for tangibles is "active" dukkha. Delight for the mind is "active" dukkha. Delight for mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) is "active" dukkha. Delight for nibbana IS ALSO "active" dukkha. The eye by itself is "passive" dukkha. Forms by itself is "passive" dukkha. The ear by itself is "passive" dukkha. Sounds by itself is "passive" dukkha. The nose by itself is "passive" dukkha. Scents by itself is "passive" dukkha. The tongue by itself is "passive" dukkha. Flavours by itself is "passive" dukkha. The body by itself is "passive" dukkha. Tangibles by itself is "passive" dukkha. The mind by itself is "passive" dukkha. Mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) by itself is "passive" dukkha. BUT nibbana by itself is NOT "passive" dukkha! Delight for the eye arises and dissolutes. Delight for forms arises and dissolutes. Delight for the ear arises and dissolutes. Delight for sounds arises and dissolutes. Delight for the nose arises and dissolutes. Delight for scents arises and dissolutes. Delight for the tongue arises and dissolutes. Delight for flavours arises and dissolutes. Delight for the body arises and dissolutes. Delight for tangibles arises and dissolutes. Delight for the mind arises and dissolutes. Delight for mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) arises and dissolutes. Delight for nibbana arises and dissolutes. The eye arises and dissolutes. Forms arises and dissolutes. The ear arises and dissolutes. Sounds arises and dissolutes. The nose arises and dissolutes. Scents arises and dissolutes. The tongue arises and dissolutes. Flavours arises and dissolutes. The body arises and dissolutes. Tangibles arises and dissolutes. The mind arises and dissolutes. Mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) arises and dissolutes. BUT nibbana is the ANTITHESIS of all that arises and dissolutes. An arahant has ridden himself of delight or "active" dukkha. The "passive" dukkha that remains is shaken off at parinibbana. Regards, Swee Boon 51954 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: >... > From an abhidhamma > perspective, couldn't the notion of "accumulations" explain the loss of > the first two classes of persons in our present age? > > Hal > Hallo Hal, I don't think that is so easy: accumulations work on the individual level (as you want: with a thread througout lifes with rebirth) And this theme is on a collective level. There are some New age philosophers who talk about 'cosmic karma' but I think we will not do so? Metta Joop 51955 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil (Attn. Matheesha, James, Jon)- I believe that it is absolutely important for Dhamma discussers to be honest and say they know when they do know, and say they don't know when they do not. Therefore, I appreciate it when you repeatedly say that "it is just thinking" when you meditate. Phil : Again, if it were me, this would just be thinking. As far as I know, this sutta shows us the case of a monk who has reached at least the level of insight known as udayabbhaya-nnana, "knowledge of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa", one of the Maha- viapassana-nnana. That ain't me. Tep: Don't you think that the udayabbhaya-nnana will never arise if you keep on thinking and being attached to the definition of the Principal Insights? Just leave the concepts alone, put the books back on the book shelf and start to do some "formal meditation" -- e.g. breathing meditation as described in DN 22 or in the Breathing Treatise. There is no thinking when you are mindfully aware of the in-breaths and out- breaths. That's when you know what it means by "unification and non- distraction" of the cognizance. ..................................... Phil : As for thinking about this sutta, observing the way feelings, for example, are rising and falling, sure, I can see it's helpful. Tep: There you go! Beyond pondering, wandering in thoughts, analyzing, reasoning, and concentrated thinking is "observing" -- just watching what's going on with mindfulness until you see and know the phenomena (arising and falling away of vedana, for example). ..................................... Phil : I really do find even thinking about Dhamma during daily life is helpful. The Buddha helps people of different degrees of insight in different ways, as we know. Tep: Absolutely ! However, thinking is not meditating in the samadhi sense, i.e. not directing the mind to anything outside the meditation object, e.g. body as body (kaye kaya). "Not directing his mind outward, a monk understands: "My mind is not directed outward." He understands: "Not focused on before or after; free; undirected." And he understands: "I abide observing body as body — ardent, fully aware, mindful — I am content." This is undirected meditation." [SN XLVII.10] Tep: One more point I want to make: in this post I am not debating with you or boasting that I have attained at least one of the 18 Principal Insights. My only purpose here is to give my thoughts about meditation. I hope you understand. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > Tep: Have you tried stop thinking and start meditating > > I am meditating again in the morning, I guess you could call it, > but it is just thinking. I focus on a sutta and soak in the > implications in a fairly concentrated way. Just thinking, but brings > me back quite often to the sutta during the day. > > according to AN > > IV.41 (as suggested by Matheesha)? (snipped) 51956 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, James - It was nice to see your post. > James: > BTW, I don't see any photos of you in the groups member album for > DSG! Why don't you add a photo? I like to picture who I am chatting > with. (This also goes for you other frequent posters: Matheesha, >Swee Boon, Ken H., etc.). Don't be shy! ;-)) > > Tep: I have got a webcam lately. I will work on it to learn how to take a snap-shot of my ugly face and post the photo for everyone here to do "foulness meditation". {:>)) "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... [MN 119] Sincerely, Tep ======== 51957 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:33am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Sarah & all, > > When dosa (aversion) has arisen in reaction to unpleasant feelings and > sensations, I have often been instructed to have patience (khanti). I > believe there are many suttas that extol the virtues of patience as an > antidote to situations that could easily give rise to aversion (dosa). > The Burmese have a wonderful saying that "patience leads to Nibbana". > Patience is one of the 10 perfections (parami). However, from an > abhidhamma perspective, how are we to understand the arising of khanti? > What conditions its occurrence? How and where is it classified? > > Hal > Hi Hal and Sarah, The answer to this question can be found in B. Bodhi's "The All Embracing Net of Views". I will leave it to Sarah to consolidate and present the material since you asked her. I agree patience is good advice. An alternative advice would be to recognize that anger arises in dependence on four other khandhas. To start this process of recognition we could begin with the body by asking "is this body angry". I would recommend actually looking at the body to see if it is angry. In this way we can gradually come to see that there is no self that is angry. Larry 51958 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:30am Subject: Satipatthana - a new book about jwromeijn Dear all, I just received from amazon.com "Satipatthana, the direct path to realisation", a Sri Lankan PhD written by Ven. Analayo (Windhorse, 2004). The reviews of Bhikkhu Bodhi, Christopher Titmuss and Rupert Gethin are very positive and I think they are right. This book is about many of the topics we at DSG are talking about the last months. I quote part of the concluding paragraph (p. 271-277; without footnotes!) XV.2 THE IMPORTANCE OF SATIPATTHANA "The Buddha recommended the pratice of satpatthana to newcomers and beginners, and also included advanced practioners and arahants among the cultivators of satipatthana. For the beginner embarking on satipatthana practice, the discourses stipulate a basis of ethical conduct and the presence of 'straight' view as necessary foundations. … It might already have come to a surprise that a newcomer to the path should be encouraged to cultivate satipatthana right away. That the Buddha and his fully awakened disciples should still engage in the practice of satipatthana might be even more surprising. … … the final part of the 'refrain', according to which contemplation continues for the sake of continued contemplation. This indicates that there is no point at which a practioner goes beyond the practice of meditation. … The continued relevance of formal meditation practice even for arahants is documented in various discourses. These discourses show that the Buddha and his disciples were always given to meditation, irrespective of their level of realization. An illustrative episode in the samannaphala Sutta reports that the Buddha and a large congregation of monks meditating in such deep silence that an approaching king feared beling led into an ambush … The Buddha's appeciation of silence went so far … Seclusion, he explained, was a distinct quality of the Dhamma. The discoourses report that even after his full awakening the Buddha still went into solitary retreat. … The passages mentioned so far clearly show the importance given in the early Buddhist community to retiring into seclusion and engaging in the practice of intensive meditation. … The relevance of satipatthana to all the Buddha's disciples is also indicated by the fact that, according tot the discourses, many nuns wre accomplished practioners of satipatthana. Several instances also refer to lay-meditators proficeint in satipatthana contemplation. … The wholesome effetcs of satipatthana are not restricted to oneself. The Buddha empathically advised that one should encourage one's friends and relatives to also practice satipatthana. In this way, satipatthana practice can become a toll for assisting others. The Buddha once illustrated the proper procedure for such assistence with the example of two acrobats about to perform a balancing act together … The simile of the two acrobats suggests that the self-development by way of satipatthana forms an important basis for the ability to help others. According to the Buddha, to try to assist others without first having developed oneself is like trying to save someone from a quagmire while one is oneself sinking …." It will take me a week reading more Joop 51959 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:38am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) bardosein Hi Larry, Thanks for your message and comments. I look forward to Sarah's post. I do hope that it will not be too involved or time consuming. I don't yet have Ven. Bodhi Bhikkhu's book, so a brief explanation would be appreciated. In my post I was referring to the whole spectrum of more subtle forms dosa, not just anger which is a very coarse expression of aversion. One needs to be aware of dosa when it is much more refined, long before it has hit such a flash-point. This is why meditation practice can be so valuable in this regard. Isn't patience (forbearance) more about the capacity to deal with unpleasant feelings and sensations, long before they give rise to such coarse forms of dosa? Once this conflagration has begun it is too late. Patience has been lost. One cannot study it while anger is arising either. You can only ask the question "is my body angry?" in a moment when you are not angry. The question might be helpful once the anger loses its foothold; but, it is an abstraction, since it must remain outside the direct experience of the event of dosa. My hunch is that patience deals with the dosa directly, and at much more subtle levels long before a chain reaction has been set in motion. A cognitive rational therapy would have very limited success here. Hal 51960 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:42am Subject: Re: Satipatthana - a new book about bardosein Hi Joop, Yes, that's a terrific book. I look forward to hearing more of your comments about it. It's packed full of references, and as you say, it's very relevant to the recent discussion here at the forum. Hal 51961 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, James - > > It was nice to see your post. > > > James: > > BTW, I don't see any photos of you in the groups member album for > > DSG! Why don't you add a photo? I like to picture who I am chatting > > with. (This also goes for you other frequent posters: Matheesha, > >Swee Boon, Ken H., etc.). Don't be shy! ;-)) > > > > > > Tep: I have got a webcam lately. I will work on it to learn how to take a > snap-shot of my ugly face and post the photo for everyone here to > do "foulness meditation". {:>)) > > "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel > ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & > festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its > nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... [MN 119] > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ======== > LOL! Oh, I doubt that! Looking forward to seeing you. Let me know when you have it posted (or contact me off-list if you need help. I am kinda good with computers.) Metta, James 51962 From: "D." Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? djimpa2002 > > An arahant has ridden himself of delight or "active" dukkha. The > "passive" dukkha that remains is shaken off at parinibbana. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Hi Boon I completely agree with this statement! Would you translate passive dukkha, with the term 'latent defilement'? Which constituent would qualify a active dukkha? Are these the 6 (Skt.) anusayas= attachment, anger, pride, ignorance, false view and doubt? I guess, only anger, pride and attachment refere to the active dukkha, and false view to the latent defilement, doubt to both categories? Just my guess. Best wishes Djimpa 51963 From: "D." Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:14am Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? djimpa2002 > > An arahant has ridden himself of delight or "active" dukkha. The > "passive" dukkha that remains is shaken off at parinibbana. > > Regards, > Swee Boon Hi Boon I completely agree with this statement! Would you translate passive dukkha, with the term 'latent defilement'? Which constituent would qualify a active dukkha? Are these the 6 (Skt.) anusayas= attachment, anger, pride, ignorance, false view and doubt? I guess, only anger, pride and attachment refere to the active dukkha, and false view to the latent defilement, doubt to both categories? Just my guess. Best wishes Djimpa 51964 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:24am Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self buddhatrue Hi Phil and Tep (and Howard and all), Phil: I am meditating again in the morning, I guess you could call it, but it is just thinking. I focus on a sutta and soak in the implications in a fairly concentrated way. Just thinking, but brings me back quite often to the sutta during the day. Tep: Don't you think that the udayabbhaya-nnana will never arise if you keep on thinking and being attached to the definition of the Principal Insights? Just leave the concepts alone, put the books back on the book shelf and start to do some "formal meditation" -- e.g. breathing meditation as described in DN 22 or in the Breathing Treatise. James: I believe that Phil, during his morning sutta reflection, is practicing formal meditation as taught by the Buddha. In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Longer Discourse, in the section on the contemplation of mental objects, the Buddha recommends the contemplation of the Four Noble Truths. All of the Buddha's discourses are in some way, usually many ways, connected to the Four Noble Truths. So, when Phil contemplates a sutta in the morning and throughout the day- if he keeps in mind how the sutta applies to the Four Noble Truths- he is indeed practicing satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. Eventually, of course, this sutta contemplation might lead to satipatthana of the other Four Foundations, best accomplished with mindfulness of breathing. But I think that Phil should move to that stage when he feels it is natural to do so. You see, I find meditation to be a very natural thing to do, and it should be natural. Others see a person sitting in the lotus posture with the eyes closed and think that it is something unnatural, but I think it is very natural. Meditation is the natural extension of the spiritual life. For example, the Buddha as a small child spontaneously began to meditate and achieved the first jhana. It was this memory which allowed him to become enlightened (he returned to the natural). As a child I used to lie in my bed, when I couldn't sleep, completely relax my body and imagine that my mind was as limitless as space. I would purposefully expand my mind further and further into empty space. Not sure why I did this but it just felt natural to me- I was meditating on the arupa spheres of existence. Howard has mentioned about how as a child he did a form of meditation of objectless awareness or `silent illumination'. William Wordsworth wrote poems about the meditation he did as a child in the forests. Meditation is quite natural for those who are spiritually inclined. It shouldn't be forced and it shouldn't come with all kinds of unrealistic expectations. Really, what is unnatural is to go through life continually chasing after sensory objects, without ever stopping to collect and focus the mind inwardly. That is very unnatural! Metta, James 51965 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Phil, and Tep) - Very well said, James! (My opinion, of course! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/30/05 1:24:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > James: I believe that Phil, during his morning sutta reflection, is > practicing formal meditation as taught by the Buddha. In the > Satipatthana Sutta, the Longer Discourse, in the section on the > contemplation of mental objects, the Buddha recommends the > contemplation of the Four Noble Truths. All of the Buddha's > discourses are in some way, usually many ways, connected to the Four > Noble Truths. So, when Phil contemplates a sutta in the morning and > throughout the day- if he keeps in mind how the sutta applies to the > Four Noble Truths- he is indeed practicing satipatthana as taught by > the Buddha. > > Eventually, of course, this sutta contemplation might lead to > satipatthana of the other Four Foundations, best accomplished with > mindfulness of breathing. But I think that Phil should move to that > stage when he feels it is natural to do so. You see, I find > meditation to be a very natural thing to do, and it should be > natural. Others see a person sitting in the lotus posture with the > eyes closed and think that it is something unnatural, but I think it > is very natural. Meditation is the natural extension of the > spiritual life. For example, the Buddha as a small child > spontaneously began to meditate and achieved the first jhana. It > was this memory which allowed him to become enlightened (he returned > to the natural). As a child I used to lie in my bed, when I > couldn't sleep, completely relax my body and imagine that my mind > was as limitless as space. I would purposefully expand my mind > further and further into empty space. Not sure why I did this but > it just felt natural to me- I was meditating on the arupa spheres of > existence. Howard has mentioned about how as a child he did a form > of meditation of objectless awareness or `silent illumination'. > William Wordsworth wrote poems about the meditation he did as a > child in the forests. Meditation is quite natural for those who are > spiritually inclined. It shouldn't be forced and it shouldn't come > with all kinds of unrealistic expectations. Really, what is > unnatural is to go through life continually chasing after sensory > objects, without ever stopping to collect and focus the mind > inwardly. That is very unnatural! > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51966 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:18am Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? bardosein Hi Djimpa, Wouldn't the notion of "latent defilements" be more a part of the mental aspect of suffering, that Swee Boon calls "active"; whereas, "dukkha as dukkha", or the suffering stemming from the physical body alone, would be the "passive" form? Arahants wouldn't suffer any latent defilements stemming from the mind, as these would have been completely eradicated. On the other hand, they could still experience "dukkha as dukkha" without any mental suffering accompanying their experience. Hal 51967 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self Discernment and Nibbana buddhistmedi... Hi, James - > > James: > > LOL! Oh, I doubt that! Looking forward to seeing you. Let me know > when you have it posted (or contact me off-list if you need help. I > am kinda good with computers.) > Thank you very much ! Of course, I will ask for your kind help. {:->)) Best wishes, Tep ========= 51968 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:40am Subject: kamma and its cessation matheesha333 Hi everyone, "And what are the roots of unskillful things? Greed... aversion... delusion... These are termed the roots of unskillful things. "And what are the roots of skillful things? Lack of greed... lack of aversion... lack of delusion... These are termed the roots of skillful things." — MN 9 The end result of the noble eightfold path is alobha, adosa and amoha ie the roots of skilful kamma. But yet an arahath does not produce kamma, even skilful ones, as far as i understand. How can we reconcile these two? Another question, what is the link between sankhara and kamma? Apunnabihsankhara etc - does one lead to the other? yesterday a monk told me that sankhara and kamma are interchangeable. I'm not sure if this is correct. Any input is appreciated. metta Matheesha 51969 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 0:19pm Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self buddhistmedi... Hi, James (Howard and Phil) - It is true that there are varieties of "meditation" in DN 22 but all of them are inward, not outward ( toward ideas learned from books, reflecting a dhamma while driving your car to work, or thinking about anything). I mentioned the breathing meditation to Phil because it is just the most important one( at least for me) in the first foundation group (kaaye kaayaanupassi viharati). It is clearly a formal meditation, while thinking and reflecting with book knowledge is not. James : I believe that Phil, during his morning sutta reflection, is practicing formal meditation as taught by the Buddha. In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Longer Discourse, in the section on the contemplation of mental objects, the Buddha recommends the contemplation of the Four Noble Truths. ... So, when Phil contemplates a sutta in the morning and throughout the day- if he keeps in mind how the sutta applies to the Four Noble Truths- he is indeed practicing satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. Tep: Why? Could you please explain to me what it means to you by "contemplation of the Four Noble Truths (FNT)", according to the Buddha? In particular, please explain what you mean by keeping "in mind how the sutta applies to the Four Noble Truths" and why is 'dhammanupassana' of the FNT the same as that? It is great that you initiated a discussion on the DN 22, which is the basic sutta all members of DSG say they know very well. But I do not recall we have ever had a detailed examination of this important sutta (since I joined the group in Nov 2004). Perhaps, we'll find out if our claim that we 'know the sutta very well' is just another version of "the ten blind men and the elephant". I look forward to learning a lot from you and Howard. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Phil and Tep (and Howard and all), > > Phil: I am meditating again in the morning, I guess you could call > it, but it is just thinking. I focus on a sutta and soak in the > implications in a fairly concentrated way. Just thinking, but brings > me back quite often to the sutta during the day. > > Tep: Don't you think that the udayabbhaya-nnana will never arise if > you keep on thinking and being attached to the definition of the > Principal Insights? Just leave the concepts alone, put the books > back on the book shelf and start to do some "formal meditation" -- > e.g. breathing meditation as described in DN 22 or in the Breathing > Treatise. > 51970 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 0:29pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) lbidd2 Hi Hal, A couple of remarks intersperced: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > Thanks for your message and comments. I look forward to Sarah's post. > I do hope that it will not be too involved or time consuming. I don't > yet have Ven. Bodhi Bhikkhu's book, so a brief explanation would be > appreciated. > > In my post I was referring to the whole spectrum of more subtle forms > dosa, not just anger which is a very coarse expression of aversion. > One needs to be aware of dosa when it is much more refined, long > before it has hit such a flash-point. This is why meditation practice > can be so valuable in this regard. Isn't patience (forbearance) more > about the capacity to deal with unpleasant feelings and sensations, > long before they give rise to such coarse forms of dosa? Once this > conflagration has begun it is too late. Patience has been lost. ------------ Larry: I wouldn't say that. One can be patiently bubbling away with anger. Not acting on it. Dosa is a moment, patience is a moment, insight is a moment. As we will see, the proximate cause of patience is right view. What I had in mind by suggesting that we notice the body as something different but dependently involved with dosa is an attempt to boost that right view from simply "I know I don't get it" or something similar into genuine insight into the view that nama and rupa is all there is to the experience, and it is empty of self. In that light, patience is unnecessary. A simpler, more direct approach might be to simply identify dosa as dosa. If dosa is dosa it isn't me or mine. These consciousnesses can have big or little consequences depending on conditions. ---------------- One > cannot study it while anger is arising either. You can only ask the > question "is my body angry?" in a moment when you are not angry. The > question might be helpful once the anger loses its foothold; but, it > is an abstraction, since it must remain outside the direct experience > of the event of dosa. My hunch is that patience deals with the dosa > directly, and at much more subtle levels long before a chain reaction > has been set in motion. A cognitive rational therapy would have very > limited success here. > > Hal > Larry 51971 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Reasons for leaving DSG dacostacharles Hi Phil, You make perfect sense to me. Very good practicing, keep it up and you may find your-self "nowhere". Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta PS: you seem ahead of me! -----Original Message----- Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for leaving DSG Hi Charles > This sounds like a good time to practice no-self/not-self, then "your" > feelings don't get hurt or .... Yes, it's funny, having an intellectual understanding of anatta has proved to be very helpful in my daily life. Things that used to make me feel down all day, perceived or real injustices, bad treatment, mean people - they don't bother me much anymore, because it seems there is less interest in my self-image, or in my rights, and this dilution of concern about self is of course conditioned by intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teaching. Of course there is still concern for self-image, that will be clinged to for a long time, I imagine - but it has been diluted, certainly. So I had no trouble whatsoever about making a fuss and quitting the group and then rejoining a couple of days later - in the past I would have fretted about looking like an idiot. But for some reason, it has been at DSG that I get irritated the most. Quite ironic, at first glance, but it makes sense. My strongest lobha these days is related to Dhamma, so that's where the strongest dosa is as well. Dosa arises when our lobha is frustrated. Thanks for your support. Phil 51972 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and James) - In a message dated 10/30/05 3:20:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Hi, James (Howard and Phil) - > > It is true that there are varieties of "meditation" in DN 22 but all of them > > are inward, not outward ( toward ideas learned from books, reflecting a > dhamma while driving your car to work, or thinking about anything). I > mentioned the breathing meditation to Phil because it is just the most > important one( at least for me) in the first foundation group (kaaye > kaayaanupassi viharati). It is clearly a formal meditation, while thinking > and reflecting with book knowledge is not. > > James : I believe that Phil, during his morning sutta reflection, is > practicing formal meditation as taught by the Buddha. In the > Satipatthana Sutta, the Longer Discourse, in the section on the > contemplation of mental objects, the Buddha recommends the > contemplation of the Four Noble Truths. ... So, when Phil contemplates > a sutta in the morning and throughout the day- if he keeps in mind how > the sutta applies to the Four Noble Truths- he is indeed practicing > satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. > > > Tep: Why? Could you please explain to me what it means to you > by "contemplation of the Four Noble Truths (FNT)", according to the > Buddha? In particular, please explain what you mean by keeping "in > mind how the sutta applies to the Four Noble Truths" and why > is 'dhammanupassana' of the FNT the same as that? > > It is great that you initiated a discussion on the DN 22, which is the basic > > sutta all members of DSG say they know very well. But I do not recall > we have ever had a detailed examination of this important sutta (since I > joined the group in Nov 2004). Perhaps, we'll find out if our claim that > we 'know the sutta very well' is just another version of "the ten blind men > and the elephant". > > I look forward to learning a lot from you and Howard. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ========================== I think that meditation is multifaceted, with direct observation of what arises and ceases being the primary aspect of "insight meditation" and "in-tandem meditation," but with contemplation of Dhamma teachings, and especially the relating of them to what one recalls and to what one is "currently" experiencing, being one of those facets as well. There even is a minority Theravadin position I have come across that "insight meditation" is largely contemplative. That also seems to me to be the basic perspective on vipassana bhavana that the Tibetans have, strongly involving the mind, even deduction, in the process. It seems to me that properly conducted contemplation of Dhamma teachings, relating them to concrete phenomena, both in memory and actuality, can lead to calm and concentration, and from there to clear, focused, and insightful attention to the flow of experience. Our thinking processes, so often defiled by ignorance can be transformed, I believe, into tools supportive of awakening. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51973 From: "D." Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:19pm Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? djimpa2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Djimpa, > > Wouldn't the notion of "latent defilements" be more a part of the > mental aspect of suffering, that Swee Boon calls "active"; Djimpa answer: What kind of suffering would be possible without the mind? The one who knows that he suffers? > whereas, "dukkha as dukkha", or the suffering stemming from the > physical body alone, would be the "passive" form? Djimap answer: Speculations about suffering which could be possible without the mind? Body as a kind of self which can operate independent from the mind? Most unlikely!You would end up with two kind of personalities with all features your mind already takes care for! Arahants wouldn't > suffer any latent defilements stemming from the mind, as these would > have been completely eradicated. On the other hand, they could still > experience "dukkha as dukkha" without any mental suffering accompanying > their experience. Djimpa answer: If the Arhat has eradicated all latent defilements how could he still know about dukkha without mental suffering? That's the contradiction in itself! What is possible is, that an Arhat has knowledge about something (not as a kind of his personal experience of himself) but, others would call suffering, and he would know which misperception did lead to such experience, on the other hand he would also know that this suffering is without reality. Because it is not part of his mind-stream, since he has eradicated the cause of ignorance in his mind. Noble ones in meditative equipoise have no knowledge about the seeming reality which is marked by the defilements of ignorance. It is us who have no knowledge about Skt. nirvana who still do know about the seeming reality called Skt. samsara. With best wishes Djimpa 51974 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:30pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) bardosein Hi Larry, Thanks for your comments. I look forward to learning more. You make a good point that we must understand anger and patience dynamically as momentary states of consciousness; in this way we can see how there can be one moment of anger and another moment of patience. It is not a state of all or nothing, one or the other. You say that "...one can be patiently bubbling away with anger. Not acting on it". In that case I would think that patience is not acting on the anger, but rather restraining the unwholesome intentions resulting from the "bubbling" situation. At anyrate, this is not what I would consider being patient. My concern is with patience in relation to the arising of dosa itself. A genuinely patient person does not get angry, as numerous examples in the suttas show. That is why, when we have become angry, I said we have lost our patience. Hal --- 51975 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Metta conditioned by reflection on the Four Noble Truths (was Ananda etc.) philofillet Hi James, (and Tep and Howard) > So, when Phil contemplates a sutta in the morning and > throughout the day- if he keeps in mind how the sutta applies to the > Four Noble Truths- he is indeed practicing satipatthana as taught by > the Buddha. Very good reminder to always bring it back to the Noble Truths. BTW, I know we've talked a lot about metta. I've fallen into an interesting new practice, or should I say an interesting new practice hasw arisen. When I find metta (or what I take for metta) has arisen in daily life, I reflect on the noble truths, and this kind of expands or deepens or extends the metta. So I think it is akin to the fourth right effort, maintaining (?) wholesome states that have arisen. In the past, as I once posted here, I found that reflection on the noble truths every morning would condition the arising of metta (or what I took for metta) which was akin to the third right effort, the effort to arouse (?) wholesome states which have not yet arisen. These days I have abandoned that, but I may return to making a point to reflect on the noble truths every morning, along with the "sutta of the day" if you will. I think that could condition more metta, perhaps, and certainly more reflecting during the day on the noble truths, and that is always good, even though I am just thinking - as long as I know I am just thinking! :) Phil 51976 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self upasaka_howard Hi, Phil _ In a message dated 10/30/05 4:49:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi, Tep (and James) - > =================== I didn't mean to exclude you! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51977 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and James) - I am happy to read your post as usual. >Howard: > I think that meditation is multifaceted, with direct observation of > what arises and ceases being the primary aspect of "insight meditation" and "in-tandem meditation," but with contemplation of Dhamma teachings, and especially the relating of them to what one recalls and to what one is "currently" experiencing, being one of those facets as well. There even is a minority Theravadin position I have come across that "insight meditation" is largely contemplative. That also seems to me to be the basic perspective on vipassana bhavana that the Tibetans have, strongly involving the mind, even >deduction, in the process. > Tep: What is really contemplation the Budhha talked about in DN 22? Specifically, with regards to the contemplation of the Four Noble Truths the key test is in "yathabhutam pajanati" as seen in the Pali of DN 22: Katham ca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammanupassi viharati - catusu ariyasaccesu ? Idha bhikhave, bhikkhu 'idam dukkham' ti yathabhutam pajanati, ayam dukkhasamudayo ti yathabhutam pajanati, ayam dukkhanirodho ti yathabhutam pajanati, ayam dukkhanirodhagamini patipada ti yathabhutam pajanati. What do you think 'yathabhutam pajanati' in the above Pali means? Is it the same as thinking and reflecting about the FNT? I think it means much more, and deeply more than just the general philosophical "contemplation of Dhamma teachings, and especially the relating of them to what one recalls and to what one is "currently" experiencing". >Howard: >It seems to me that properly conducted contemplation of Dhamma teachings, relating them to concrete phenomena, both in memory and actuality, can lead to calm and concentration, and from there to clear, focused, and insightful attention to the flow of experience. Our thinking processes, so often defiled by ignorance can be transformed, I believe, into tools supportive of awakening. > Tep: You're right in general, but I think the focus of this discussion is on DN 22, not the broad discussion of application of the Dhamma to transform ourselves in the long run. The key words of the practice underlying DN 22 are: being ardent, alert, and mindful of arising-and-passing-away phenomena of one of the four foundations of mindfulness in the present moment such that greed and distress with reference to the world are put aside. Frankly, I don't see how I can incorporate a thinking that is "defiled by ignorance" into this "here & now" dhammanupassana of the Four Noble Truths. In fact, there is no thinking(vitakka) when the meditator is "busy" with the meditation in the present moment. I don't mean to start a new time-consuming long discussion with you. Up to now I am contented with this brief exchange of thoughts. {:->) Sincerely, Tep ======= 51978 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self philofillet Hi Howard > I didn't mean to exclude you! ;-) I'm glad you caught that - I was just about to quit the group again!;) Phil 51979 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? kenhowardau Hi Joop and Hal, Joop wrote: --------------------- > But still my question is: what has changed? Something in the human species: mankind got and gets - in the spiritual dimension - more and more stupid. To say it clear: I don't believe that, there is no proof at all for it (not in the opposite too). Was there a percentage of human beings 2500 years ago (in India) able to awaken after hearing a short discourse; and is that percentage today zero? What has happened: are we to wealthy? Has there happened something that can be explained by evolutionary theory? Is it a change in the character-formation of humans that can be explained by the mechanisms of the Abhidhamma? ---------------------- The answer has always seemed obvious to me: The people who, in the Buddha's day, were ready for enlightenment (who had little dust in their eyes) have become enlightened and are gone from the world. The only people left today, are those who had quite a lot of dust in their eyes. I have suggested this answer before on DSG without getting much response - for or against - so maybe I am missing something. Maybe the discussion is at a deeper level than I am aware of. ---------------------------------------------------- J: > The world today is very different from that of 2500 years ago and that of 1500 years ago: not declined but changed. ----------------------------------------------------- I suspect the Buddhist community in Buddhaghosa's day (and before) had a different preconception of the Dhamma. Today, if you told a Buddhist, "In truth and reality, there are no beings here, there are only conditioned dhammas," he would not know what you were talking about. I think, in earlier times he would have known exactly what you were talking about. Ken H 51980 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/30/05 6:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > I didn't mean to exclude you! ;-) > > > I'm glad you caught that - I was just about to quit the group again!;) > > Phil > ======================= LOLOL!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 51981 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:13pm Subject: Re: SN 35:234 - Ananda explains that seeing (etc) is not self buddhatrue Hi Tep (Howard and Phil and all), Tep, you seem to be splitting hairs over this issue- and that really isn't necessary. Howard explained it pretty well, as far as I see- meditation is multi-faceted. I appreciate that you know and can translate Pali, but I cannot. ;-)) I have to depend on those more knowledgeable than myself in regards to Pali. Let me quote from Soma Thera, a recognized expert on the Satipatthana Sutta: "The Four Truths Having explained thus the contemplation of mental objects by way of the seven factors of enlightenment, the Master said, "And further," and so forth, in order to explain the meditation by way of the Four Truths. Idam dukkhanti yathabhutam Pajanati = "A bhikkhu understands: 'this is suffering,' according to reality." He puts aside craving, and understands all things of the three planes of becoming as suffering, according to nature. He understands according to nature the previous craving that produces and makes to arise that very suffering. He understands the non-occurrence of both suffering and its origin, according to nature, as Nibbana. He understands, according to nature, the Noble Path which penetrates suffering, abandons origination, and realizes cessation. The rest of the explanation of the Noble Truths is in the Path of Purity [Visuddhi Magga]." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#four James: Tep, I understand your point: You are saying that the Four Noble Truths cannot be contemplated according to the suttas (mere words) they must be contemplated according to experienced `reality'. My response: yes and no. Of course one must move closer and closer to understanding the Four Noble Truths according to the reality experienced, but that is not possible at the beginning. The contemplation, at the beginning, must be intellectual. After all, how could one contemplate nibbana, the third noble truth, when one isn't yet enlightened? That would be impossible! Surely, the Buddha realized this when he gave these instructions to contemplate the 4NT. From my understanding, the practitioner is to contemplate the 4NT as concept...as reality...as concept...as reality...as concept, etc. until such contemplation becomes a part of one's thinking and experience. (As Howard explained this meditation: multi-faceted.) This approach is done so that little by little the egg shell of ignorance is cracked open and, hopefully, an enlightened being emerges. Metta, James ps. So really, we are all right. We need to keep just keep moving on! :-) 51982 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:42pm Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? philofillet HI Joop, Hal, Ken and all Joop wrote> > But still my question is: what has changed? Something in the human > species: mankind got and gets - in the spiritual dimension - more and > more stupid. > To say it clear: I don't believe that, there is no proof at all for > it (not in the opposite too). For what it's worth (not much) I think there is a different kind of conditioning at work on people, from the time we are born, within the space of a single lifetime. I don't know if this is the influence of the Greeks, or western Philosophy, or what - I've forgotten all I read about Western Philosophy. But the emphasis that is placed on the individual and what one accomplishes and understands during one's lifetime, it makes us want too much too soon, I'm quite sure. (On the other hand, yes, The Buddha taught about the importance of appreciating the rarity of a human birth.) > Was there a percentage of human beings 2500 years ago (in India) able > to awaken after hearing a short discourse; and is that percentage > today zero? What has happened: are we to wealthy? Has there happened > something that can be explained by evolutionary theory? Is it a > change in the character-formation of humans that can be explained by > the mechanisms of the Abhidhamma? Something to do with the mechanics of conditioning, I suspect. Natural decisive support condition, which from what I understand includes all our experience, will have been shaped by all the longing for accomplishment that has gone on since the 17th century or whenever it was that the Enlightenment happened. From great great great grandparents, down to our parents, down to our teachers, down to the writers we have read, the movies we have seen, the games we played when kids...so much conditioning at work that emphasizes the well-accomplished individual, which is of course contrary to the Buddha's message of detachment, dispassion, revulsion, abandonment. Just my theory. Ken wrote : > I suspect the Buddhist community in Buddhaghosa's day (and before) > had a different preconception of the Dhamma. Today, if you told a > Buddhist, "In truth and reality, there are no beings here, there are > only conditioned dhammas," he would not know what you were talking > about. I think, in earlier times he would have known exactly what you > were talking about. I think all Buddhists today understand this at least in theory, don't they? I mean it's Dhamma 101. The suttas make it clear enough, even without Abhidhamma. But people certainly have resistance to the idea of no beings. It can be very frightening to know that there is nothing, really, except for nama and rupa. (Or khandas, or dhatus, or ayatanas in sutta terms.) And try to tell this idea to a non- Buddhist and you'll just be laughed at - which is why this basic teaching is watered down by popular Buddhist teachers such as Thich Nhat Hahn to appeal to modern readers. Abdhidhamma brought me to the basic truth of "no beings" much faster than I would have got there if I were still reading popular Buddhist writers. I think that is its great value. And then, with some understanding of Abhidhamma, we can understand that this basic truth of "no beings" lies in all suttas as well, including all those suttas in Anguttara Nikaya that start with something like "there are 4 kinds of people." OK, wandered off track there. My point was to agree with Ken that the truth of "no beings" does not go down with people in this day and age, but there would have been far easier understanding of it, fewer conditioned obstacles to it, way back when. (We know there was one school, the puggalavada (sp?) that took one particular sutta as evidence for the ultimate existence of beings/persons, but other than that mainstream Buddhism assumed no beings.) Phil 51983 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > I have read this post and I appreciate your feedback. However, I > don't want to respond at this time. I believe that any response > would enflame a now quiet and peaceful environment, and I would like > it to stay that way for a bit longer. ;-)) Hi James "a bit longer" sounds ominous. (-: Really, I wasn't trying to spark a storm. No response is called for. Let's just walk on ... Best wishes Andrew T 51984 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? bardosein Hi Djimpa, Thanks for you thoughtful reply. Do I hear echoes of the mind-only doctrine in your remarks? (I'm not sure how this perspective accords with the Abhidhamma. Once I understand the Abhidhamma (my knowledge is rather limited, to say the least) I would like try to understand the latter by way of comparison. With this in mind, I offer a few comments. Djimpa: What kind of suffering would be possible without the mind? The one who knows that he suffers? Hal: I think this depends on what we mean by dukkha; suffering is perhaps not the best translation. One could be aware of the unsatisfactory nature of the body. That would be "suffering" of a sorts. Djimpa: Djimap answer: Speculations about suffering which could be possible without the mind? Body as a kind of self which can operate independent from the mind? Most unlikely!You would end up with two kind of personalities with all features your mind already takes care for! Hal: I didn't mean to suggested there was a mind-body dualism such as this. The nama/rupa distinction, from the Abhidhamma perspective, does not involve any such assumptions. My understanding about Arahants is very limited so I don't how to reply to your interesting remarks concerning the distinction I was trying to make between dukkha arising in the mind and dukkha arising from the unsatisfactory nature of the body". Hal 51985 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: My point was to agree with Ken that > the truth of "no beings" does not go down with people in this day > and age, but there would have been far easier understanding of it, > fewer conditioned obstacles to it, way back when. (We know there was > one school, the puggalavada (sp?) that took one particular sutta as > evidence for the ultimate existence of beings/persons, but other > than that mainstream Buddhism assumed no beings.) Hi Phil, Ken H and all According to Harvey (An Introduction to Buddhism), the Puggalavadin school developed during the 3rd century BC. In the 7th century AD, a quarter of Indian monks were Puggalavadins. I honestly don't know if things would have been easier back then. Does Right Effort come in a measuring cup? (-: Best wishes Andrew T 51986 From: "Hal" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? bardosein Hi Phil, Phil: For what it's worth (not much) I think there is a different kind of conditioning at work on people, from the time we are born, within the space of a single lifetime. Hal: I'm not sure if this addresses your question, but in at least one sutta (I can't remember which one), the Buddha indicated that a person's age may affect their potential to realize the Paths and Fruits. As I recall, he remarked that if such and such a man had taken up the practise early in his life he would have attained arahantship. Now, however, because he was in the last period of his life, even if he undertook the discipline, he would only acheive stream entry. A person's experiences early in life is another factor mentioned. With regard to another individual, he remarked that even though such and such a person had had great potential, because he had indulged excessively in sensual pleasures early in his life, he would be unable to attain the paths in this lifetime. Does anyone know the sutta(s) to which I am referring? Hal 51987 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:14pm Subject: Re: What has changed in 2500 years? (Was: Did Buddhaghosa formal meditate? philofillet Hi Andrew and Hal (below) > In the 7th century AD, a > quarter of Indian monks were Puggalavadins. Thanks for this. Interesting. The purite of Dhamma declined with the passing centuries, I'd say, culminating in things like Soka- Gakkai here in Japan and elsewhere. > > I honestly don't know if things would have been easier back then. Does > Right Effort come in a measuring cup? (-: Hmm. But if our effort is often motivated by dosa about death and desire for emotional comfort and a sense of spiritual peace of mind, it's not right effort. I just think that it is so hard to be human and be burdened with expectations (both one's own and those of people around one) about the content of one's lifetime that in this day and age we are bound to seek comfort and a sense of accomplishment from Dhamma rather than detachment, dispassion, revulsion, abandonment etc. I know I am generalizing and assuming too much as usual, and yes, you're right, my theory is in conventional terms. In ultimate terms there is life and death with the arising and falling away of every citta. A moment of right effort is of infinitely greater value than tons and tons of theorizing and speculating. Phil p.s Hal, thanks for the reference to that sutta. Gave rise to a twinge of samvega, I think. Looking forward to seeing the sutta. 51988 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:19pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 296 Aversion-dosa (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch18 - Aversion (dosa)] Dosa can motivate akusala kamma patha (unwholesome courses of action) through body, speech and mind. The akusala kamma patha through body which is killing is motivated by dosa. As to stealing, this can be motivated by lobha or by dosa. It is motivated by dosa when one wants to harm another person. Three of the four akusala kamma pathas through speech, namely lying, slandering and idle talk, can be motivated by lobha or by dosa. They are motivated by dosa when one wants to harm someone else. The akusala kamma patha which is rude speech is motivated by dosa. The akusala kamma patha through the mind which is ill-will is motivated by dosa. This is the intention to hurt or harm someone else. Akusala kamma brings sorrow both in this life and the next. The person who has committed akusala kamma may become afraid of the result it will bring and he has no peace of mind. Dosa is harmful for mind and body. Because of dosa our appearance becomes ugly: we may become red in the face, our features become unpleasant and the corners of our mouth droop. If we remember that it is not considerate to show others an unpleasant face it can condition patience instead of dosa. There are many ill effects of dosa. It causes sleeplessness, the loss of friends, the loss of one’s good name, of prosperity and wealth. And after this life has ended one may have an unhappy rebirth because of dosa. ***** [Aversion (dosa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 51989 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:21pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana - a new book about kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > Dear all, > > I just received from amazon.com "Satipatthana, the direct path to > realisation", a Sri Lankan PhD written by Ven. Analayo (Windhorse, > 2004). > The reviews of Bhikkhu Bodhi, Christopher Titmuss and Rupert Gethin > are very positive and I think they are right. > > This book is about many of the topics we at DSG are talking about the > last months. > I quote part of the concluding paragraph (p. 271-277; without > footnotes!) > > Hi Joop, Thanks for telling us about this book. ---------------------------------- > XV.2 THE IMPORTANCE OF SATIPATTHANA "The Buddha recommended the pratice of satpatthana to newcomers and beginners, and also included advanced practioners and arahants among the cultivators of satipatthana. ----------------------------------- I have no doubt the Buddha recommended satipatthana to newcomers, but does that mean he described it as 'the practice of newcomers?' Did he expect them to directly know paramattha dhammas straight away? Surely satipatthana is the practice of the wise? ----------------------------------------------------------- > For the beginner embarking on satipatthana practice, the discourses stipulate a basis of ethical conduct and the presence of 'straight' view as necessary foundations. … ------------------------------------------------------------- How is that to be understood? I would say, "Satipatthana is practised when the conditions for its practice are in place, and those conditions include past ethical conduct, including Dhamma study." I don't think the author understands it quite that way, do you? I think he believes the beginner should forget about dhammas that are arising now and be concerned with the future. That is, he should do something aimed at having right understanding in the future. -------------------------- > It might already have come to a surprise that a newcomer to the path should be encouraged to cultivate satipatthana right away. -------------------------- It is not surprising that the newcomer should be encouraged to consider how the Dhamma applies to the present moment. But that might not be what the author means. I think he might mean that the newcomer should engage in a parody of satipatthana. I think he means we should concentrate on how our feet go up and down while we are walking; or how our jaw goes up and down while we are eating; or we should engage in some other lamentable trivialisation of the Buddha's teaching. ------------------------- >An illustrative episode in the samannaphala Sutta reports that the Buddha and a large congregation of monks meditating in such deep silence that an approaching king feared beling led into an ambush … The Buddha's appeciation of silence went so far … Seclusion, he explained, was a distinct quality of the Dhamma. The discoourses report that even after his full awakening the Buddha still went into solitary retreat. … ------------------------- Speaking of lamentable, isn't it sad that an esteemed author does not know the difference between 'jhana developed on its own' 'vipassana developed on its own' and 'jhana and vipassana developed in tandem?' Silence is of no particular benefit to monks who are developing vipassana on its own. In fact, there are suttas where the Buddha chastises monks for keeping "noble silence" when they could have been discussing Dhamma. There are also suttas where the Buddha advises against physical seclusion for monks who are unsuited to it (and I think that means 'who are not jhana-meditators'). ------------------------------------ > The passages mentioned so far clearly show the importance given in the early Buddhist community to retiring into seclusion and engaging in the practice of intensive meditation. … The relevance of satipatthana to all the Buddha's disciples is also indicated by the fact that, according tot the discourses, many nuns were accomplished practioners of satipatthana. Several instances also refer to lay-meditators proficeint in satipatthana contemplation. … ------------------------------------ It is a sad fact of life that esteemed Dhamma teachers such as this author do not know the difference between jhana and satipatthana. No wonder there is so much confusion amongst Buddhists today. Ken H 51990 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as a prerequisite for enlightenment sarahprocter... Hi Steve (& Jon), As usual you raise good points and help me consider my comments more carefully. Thank you for gently probing further here. --- seisen_au wrote: > I'm thinking that Magga and Phala cittas are supramundane jhana cittas > with Nibbana as object. .... S: I also understand lokuttara jhana to be another term for magga (and phala) cittas. As we know, the two meanings of jhana refer to arammanupanijjhana, (referring to moments of samatha development) and lakkhanupanijjhana, referring to the development of satipatthana and to magga cittas in particular when the defilements are ‘burnt up’. Whilst there is the burning of unwholesome states at any moment of satipatthana by knowing the lakkhana (characteristic) of reality, the defeilements are only completely burnt away by the respective magga cittas or lokuttara jhana cittas. > Sarah, do you have any ref's that state that magga/phala cittas are > not appana (absorption)? My feeling at the moment is that because > lokuttaracittas seem to be a type of jhana citta, then magga and phala > are most probably appana cittas? > > View Straightening replies most welcome :) ... S: I believe they are said to be appana cittas on account of the ‘appana object, nibbana’ which conditions the cittas to be of such an intensity. When I wrote to Htoo before that they were not appana, I should have clarified further to say they were not jhana or Samadhi cittas and therefore not (jhana) appana cittas. However, they are said to experience their object (nibbana) with an intensity equivalent to (mundane) jhana cittas, i.e appana. Thx for gently probing further and helping me to correct/clarify my statement. Jon quoted the following before from CMA and the commentary: "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas*, and because they *possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas*." (CMA Ch. I, Guide (i.e.. summary of commentary) to ##30-31) In the PTS translation, the relevant passage of the text of the A-S itself reads: "(41) By taking each in five ways by division according to association with jhaana-factors, the unsurpassed consciousness is said to be fortyfold." This I think is to the same effect as the second of the reasons given in the BB passage above.” ***** > Steve > > *8 types of supramundane first jhana consciousness: > > Stream enterer path and fruition citta > One-returner path and fruition citta > Non-returner path and fruition citta > Arahant path and fruition citta Please let me know if there are any other questionable comments I’ve made here or elsewhere anytime. Metta, Sarah I discussed more on upadana in Bkk with K.Sujin. Unfortunately there’s a problem with the recording so I can’t listen to it or edit it for now. Let us know if you’ll be visiting anytime too. ======== 51991 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) sarahprocter... Hi Hal (& Larry), Larry is referring to the translation of the commentary to the Cariyaapi.taka which contains a ‘Treatise on the Paramis’ at the back of B.Bodhi’s translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries. In her book on ‘The Perfections’,ch 7, Patience, A.Sujin refers to this text extensively and in her translation, Nina relies on BB’s translation from the same source. (see Zolag website for more or ‘Useful Posts’ under ‘Patience’ for helpful extracts and previous letters on Patience.) I find it very helpful to reflect on patience as the enduring of ‘the desirable and the undesirable’. This also includes patience with the akusala dhammas conditioned to arise already, including dosa. As Larry stressed, understanding realities as they are, as dhammas, not belonging to any self, is the proximate cause for the development of patience. This was the first extract on patience from the A.Sujin’s book posted here before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17721 *** “The Perfections, by Acharn Sujin, Patience, Ch 7, no. 1 The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of patience as follows: * Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause. The perfection of patience, khanti påramí, has a wide meaning. Patience is to be developed not merely towards an undesirable object, but also towards a desirable object. We should have patience towards a desirable object so that lobha does not arise, so that there is no attachment and delight in visible object and the other sense objects that appear. Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which arises with sobhana citta. However, people can also have a great deal of endurance in the akusala way, and this is endurance with lobha, when they want to obtain something. Someone may be able to endure everything in order to obtain what he desires, no matter whether he has to stay awake until late at night or all night. However, can one endure this in order to develop kusala? Endurance with the development of kusala is the perfection of patience, khanti påramí. With the perfection of patience one can stand heat or cold. This means, that on account of hot or cold weather akusala citta does not arise, that there is no disturbance or annoyance. We should be aware of the characteristic of the citta arising at such a moment, we should know whether it is kusala or akusala. Is there like or dislike of the weather? If we like it there is lobha, attachment, and if we dislike it there is dosa, aversion, and in both cases the perfection of patience does not arise. The perfection of patience is endurance with true calm at such moments, no attachment nor aversion. When visible object appears, seeing-consciousness experiences it, and it can be known that there is no being, no person no self. If we have no patience to be aware of the characteristic of the reality appearing at this moment, we cannot reach the further shore, that is, nibbåna. If we do not have endurance with regard to lobha and dosa, defilements cannot be eliminated. If we lack patience we cannot reach the further shore, nibbåna, we cannot penetrate the four noble Truths. Learning about the ten perfections will help us to investigate whether we accumulate the perfections which are still deficient, and if we see their value and significance there are conditions for them to grow and develop. We should be patient while we investigate and consider realities thoroughly, so that we acquire right understanding of them and practise in the right way. Without right understanding there are no conditions for the arising of right mindfulness which is aware of the characteristics of realities that appear. Khanti is endurance and restraint with regard to akusala citta which arises.” * Metta, Sarah ========== 51992 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] short hello from a new member of DSG sarahprocter... Hi Yang (or should I call you Li?), --- wong chang li wrote: > DSG Dhamma friends: > > I get to know DSG from my classmate who has registered as a member few > weeks ago. I am a student of Chibs from Taiwan > (http://www.chibs.edu.tw), interested in the field of Theravada > Buddhism. ... S: I'm glad that Jean introduced you to DSG and thanks for telling us more about yourself and your interests here (and off-list). It's great that you can read the Chinese, English and Pali texts. .... >At the moment I am busy on my thesis with the topic of "The > Comparative Study of the Pali Version and Chinese Version of > Anapanasati-samyutta"; you are welcome to let me know if you have any > ideas or materials on this topic. Nice to meet all of you here. ... S: A difficult area. Please see 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG and scroll down to 'Anapanasati'. I think you may find a lot to interest you here. Are you looking at the subject of anapanasati in general or the anapanasati sutta in particular? Do you have Nanamoli's booklet (published by the BPS) on 'Mindfulness of Breathing (anapanasati)' which contains various texts and commentaries? Also, lots in the Visuddhimagga which I'm sure you have. For understanding the Pali texts further, I think you'd also find BB's translation and notes on the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, published as 'Compendium Manual of Abhidhamma' very useful. It has also been translated into Chinese in Malaysia and I've seen a copy. Tep has also been posting extracts on the 'Treatise on Breathing' from the Patisambhida magga (Path of Discrimination), although the English translation of this by Nanamoli is very difficult to follow. We'll all be glad to have you join in or start any further discussions. I know many people, including Tep, will be interested to hear more about your studies too. Metta, Sarah ==== 51993 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:36pm Subject: Re: India Photos sukinderpal Dear Sarah, Phil, Tep, Christine and all, I am glad that you appreciate the pictures. I was somewhat disappointed on learning that they were taken in low-resolution. Sarah, you asked about the full description of one of the photos, here it is: "After being caught with those sharp objects, Christine became more receptive to Dhamma." :-) I have just added a few pictures from K. Foo's collection. She actually took more than 3500 pictures and a few videos, but I chose only 28 of these. I am linking you all directly to this particular album. http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/album?.dir=8f04&.src=ph &store=&prodid=&.done=http 3a//in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/my_photos Tep, you will see that there is one very nice picture of our moderators Jon and Sarah, together. ;-) Enjoy. Metta, Sukin Ps: Sarah, about "thinking about thinking" I will right about this in another post. I will tie this with certain discussions going on in other threads. pps: This may be a repeat post, as i sent one several minutes ago and it hasn't yet turned up on the list. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Sukin (& Chris & Joop), > > --- Sukinder wrote: > > > Dear Group, > > > > I have just finished uploading some of the India photos that I took. > > There were some technical problems including file names. > .... > S: Great pics and a we've just enjoyed the slide show. We also enjoyed all > your captions and the odd mystery left unsolved such as what Christine > became after being caught with those sharp objects....(?!?). > 51994 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions Part 20 - Dissociation Condition (vippayutta-paccaya) sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon & Howard, Ignore this if anyone else already replied with the same:) ... H:> > "Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is > > called name." Isn't it interesting that consciousness is missing > > from the list? It would be interesting even if it were there but > > not 1st on the list. But it's not there at all!! What should be > > made of that? Anyone? > SB:> Oh no, the Abhidhamma got it all wrong! :-) > > I really don't know what to make of it anyway. > > This definition of nama is taught by the Buddha, and it is repeated by > Sariputta as well. .... Sarah: In the context of Paticca Samuppada as in this sutta (SN12:2), nama refers to the vipaka cetasikas only and in particular, to the vipaka cetasikas accompanying rebirth consciousness. Hence we read here: "With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality (nama-rupa)......" So we always have to look at the context, I think. ... SB:> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-009-nb0.html > > 54. "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of > mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, > what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? > Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are > called mentality. The four great elements and the material form > derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. > So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality- > materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of > mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is > the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the > cessation of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; > that is, right view... right concentration. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How could Sariputta then twist the Blessed One's words and come up > with a different definition of nama in the Abhidhamma? .... S: This is the same. In the context of D.O. some of the terms used have particular meanings. For example, vi~n~naa.na (consciousness) here doesn't refer to all cittas as elsewhere, but to rebirth consciousness and other vipaka cittas. Rupa refers to material phenomena produced by kamma in this context. .... > Perhaps this is the piece of crucial evidence that suggests the Buddha > did not teach the Abhidhamma, neither to the devas nor to Sariputta. > > I don't know, it doesn't make a difference to me anyway. My emphasis > is on the Buddha's teachings direct from the suttas and not the > Abhidhamma. ... S: Even in the suttas, the various terms have to be understood in context. For example 'bhava' in D.O. has a very specific meaning referring to present kammic formations and 'sankhara' in D.O. refers to past kammic formations. In other contexts, their meanings are quite different. It doesn't mean the Buddha, Sariputta or anyone else 'got it wrong':). I hope this helps a little. I think it's an example of just how difficult the suttas can be to really understand for us. Metta, Sarah p.s Swee Boon, I liked the way you quoted the sutta from SN with the verses between Kamada and the Buddha in response to Antony's doubts. Also with yr qu (#50435) regarding which condition 'says that Right View conditions the other 7 path factors to arise auto-magically', I'd suggest: 1. sahajata (conascence condition) by the mental aggregates condition each other, so here they'd all condition each other and in particular: 2. sahajata adhipati (conascence predominance condition) which falls under adhipati condition by which the conditioning state (here right view) causes and predominates over associated states. The analogy is given of the universal monarch who reigns with absolute sovereignty. There are four predominant dhammas: a) prdominant desire (chanda), predominant investigating-wisdom (panna), predominant effort (viriya) and predominant consciousness (citta). Other states don't have the 'required potency and basic features for carrying out the function of predominance' (U Narada 'Conditional Relations'). In the growth of satipatthana, panna 'predominates' or develops more and more as the 'forerunner'. Thx for helping me to reflect further and for your other posts. comments welcome. Metta, Sarah ========= 51995 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] murdered monks or mass suicide? sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita and Hal, I haven't read the original sources and only skimmed through the article you posted Hal (so much to catch up on:)). Very interesting. However, I want to say that I think as the good series of sutta texts (with comments) which Ven Samahita posted on kamma and its effects made clear (eg #51663), it can be very complex indeed. There may be the 'good effects' of listening to the Buddha for those monks and the 'bad effects' from previous bad deeds. So I would assume that the Buddha's teachings on foulness and so on at the time was what he knew would be most helpful for the bhikkhus to hear as explained in the commentary. When we read that he foresaw that their evil kamma was about to ripen and lead to violent deaths through suicide, it probably means that the result of kamma was the (indirect) cause of the suicide. The volitional suicide in other words was committed on account of the unpleasant/unbearable results of the past kamma. I assume this applied to the worldlings amongst them and any of the ariyans who died were murdered. (I know others will have different ideas on this). As for why the Buddha asked Ananda, this is often how he taught I believe. Also, of course, it depends on what he put his mind to at the time, so he may have actually relied on Ananda to update him. Sometimes in the texts, kamma is used generally as a general or indirect cause, much like we use it in everyday language. In our case, of course, it's usually in ignorance that we do so. Also, Ven Samahita, I liked some of your other extracts including one on metta from Itivuttaka, the one from Bahiya, Udana (see also 'U.P' under 'Udana' and 'Bahiya' if you have time) and the one on Vacchagotta (#51889). I think that the more concerned we are with the understanding of the 5 khandhas, the less concerned we are with other idle speculations about the past and future as well as those (wrongly) based on an idea of self. Metta, Sarah ===== --- Hal wrote: > Ven. Samahita and all, > > Thank you for the source citation. Below is the article where I first > read about the undesirable effects of asubha practices as implied by > Ananda's reply to the Buddha's question. 51996 From: "D." Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 0:13am Subject: Re: Source of What ... ??? djimpa2002 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" wrote: > > Hi Djimpa, > > Thanks for you thoughtful reply. Do I hear echoes of the mind-only > doctrine in your remarks? (I'm not sure how this perspective accords > with the Abhidhamma. Well yes, i am not a Therevarda follower as i said in the beginning of my introduction in this list. I did study the Madyamaka by Nagarjurna and aspects of the Mind only school in India. Also it depends which Abhidharma do you use, the one from Vasubandu does fit very much with the Mind only school, in fact i find a lot taken from the Abhidharma the Mind only school did incorporate in their school. And it has to be also, one can not start to hold a view which wasn't taught before by the Buddha! Once I understand the Abhidhamma (my knowledge > is rather limited, to say the least) I would like try to understand > the latter by way of comparison. With this in mind, I offer a few > comments. > > > Hal: I didn't mean to suggested there was a mind-body dualism such as > this. The nama/rupa distinction, from the Abhidhamma perspective, > does not involve any such assumptions. Djimpa answer: Well, but you spoke about the latent dukkha as nature of the body limited aspect? Maybe you refere to the fact that the body is composed and that's why impermanent? That is considered as suffering. What comes together will fall off. But in this case i did refere to the mind, there are defilement's of the active aspects and defilement's of the passive aspect. Still i don't know both aspects definitions and enumerated according to the Therevada system? > My understanding about Arahants is very limited so I don't how to > reply to your interesting remarks concerning the distinction I was > trying to make between dukkha arising in the mind and dukkha arising > from the unsatisfactory nature of the body". > > Hal Djimpa answer: The Abhidharmakosa by Vasubandu does offer a detail analyse of the different (4) possible arhats. The Abhidharma is a treasure of knowledge! Best wishes Djimpa > 51997 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: India Photos christine_fo... Dear Sukin, Sarah, and all, Actually - my sharp object was an ordinary everyday steel table fork ... we had been told to bring a fork and a spoon for midday meals on all-day bus rides. Everybody did. Only 'my' fork caused alarm. The thing that really got me (remember it's India) was that I was held up for 40 minutes while they labelled it, wrapped it, and wrote entries about the fork in the Ledger (Oh Madam - would you sign here please?), gave me a receipt, ensured it went in a special package through Customs and was only available to me at the other end when the plane touched down (and after a further period of time with the new officials), with more entries in the Ledger .... but .... ALL the forks used for the meal on the plane during the flight were heavy metal and sharp, not plastic! I love India, but I think I would go mad and strangle someone if I had to stay there more than a month and deal with The Logic. (However ... I perfectly understand them pulling Azita up :-) Good job! Nice to see the men are 'on their toes' and ever alert! She had some sort of pocket Army Knife with all the folding bits and pieces ... but a Dinner Fork in Delhi augghh!. .... and certainly nowhere near the security risk of "someone" attempting to photograph the planes,the tarmac and the armed security force member in a Disputed Zone ... :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Phil, Tep, Christine and all, > > I am glad that you appreciate the pictures. I was somewhat > disappointed on learning that they were taken in low-resolution. > Sarah, you asked about the full description of one of the photos, here it > is: > "After being caught with those sharp objects, Christine became more > receptive to Dhamma." :-) > > I have just added a few pictures from K. Foo's collection. She actually > took more than 3500 pictures and a few videos, but I chose only 28 of > these. I am linking you all directly to this particular album. > > http://in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/album?.dir=8f04&.src=ph > &store=&prodid=&.done=http > 3a//in.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sukinderpal/my_photos > > Tep, you will see that there is one very nice picture of our moderators > Jon and Sarah, together. ;-) > > Enjoy. > > Metta, > Sukin > > Ps: Sarah, about "thinking about thinking" I will right about this in > another post. I will tie this with certain discussions going on in other > threads. > pps: This may be a repeat post, as i sent one several minutes ago and > it hasn't yet turned up on the list. 51998 From: "Hal" Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 0:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 295 Aversion-dosa (d) bardosein Hi Sarah, (& Larry), Thanks for your very helpful comments, references and useful links. I'll be awhile studying all these sources. I'm still working my way slowly through Nina's texts! Hal 51999 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India Photos sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Tep, James, Chirs & FOO, --- Sukinder wrote: > "After being caught with those sharp objects, Christine became more > receptive to Dhamma." :-) .... :-) Shall we call in no 25: Fork Condition:-) .... > > I have just added a few pictures from K. Foo's collection. She actually > took more than 3500 pictures and a few videos, but I chose only 28 of > these. I am linking you all directly to this particular album. ... S: My goodness - thank you for selecting these ones for us to see. You're both very good photographers..... And Tep, Foo is also American Thai living in Texas and she promises to join us on DSG when she's settled back. (Sukin, if you're in touch with her, pls give her a gentle 'prod'.....Foo, hope to hear from you if you're reading this. Others will also hear you in one or two of the discussions in due course). > Tep, you will see that there is one very nice picture of our moderators > Jon and Sarah, together. ;-) ... S: Sukin, I'm surprised you didn't label it 'lobha' as you 'tactfully!!' did another one of me:). Thx to James for encouraging you to join the DSG album, Tep. Btw, James, you'll find Ken H in the group pics there. Hope you can help round up a few other regulars too...more prods perhaps? Metta, Sarah p.s Never mind, Chris, you were in good company. Most the group got 'caught' at one security check point or other.....just relieved we're all out before the Delhi bombings....imagine the security checks going on now.... =============