52600 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >Hi Jon, > >... >Here's that sutta I mentioned. It is also known as Dighajanu sutta - >maybe you already know it: > >http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt >ara/an08-054a.html > Thanks for the sutta reference. Another interesting one ;-)) Regarding this sutta you say : "Noting a single dhamma we will not notice arising and passing away to a degree which will move the mind towards nibbida - which is the basic level of panna for a lay person as directed by the Buddha (vyaggapajja sutta)." I believe the part of the sutta you have in mind here is the part that reads as follows (using the Bh. Bodhi translation from his NDB anthology, p.170-172): ************************* "Four things lead to a family man's welfare and happiness in the future life. What four? Accomplishment in faith, virtue, generosity and wisdom. ... And how is a family man accomplished in wisdom? Here, a family man possesses the wisdom which sees into the arising and passing away of phenomena, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. In this way a family man is accomplished in wisdom." ************************* To my reading, the Buddha is here referring to the development of insight up to the stage of full enlightenment. I base this on the words ''wisdom which *sees into the arising and passing away of phenomena*, which is *noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering*". This seems to be a description of vipassana bhavana culminating in arahantship (only the arahant has completely destroyed suffering). In a later post to Tep you also say about this sutta: "It is about the Buddha talking to a lay person what he should develop. He mentions panna, and gives a definition of it...perhaps the minimum for a lay person's practice." I don't think the wisdom described in the sutta is 'basic' or 'the minimum'. You may have overlooked the reference to the 'complete destruction of suffering', which I believe refers to arahantship. It is worth noting that there is no suggestion in this sutta of the lay person having to give up or modify his household life in any respect in order to develop understanding. Of course, this is just one sutta, and as with all suttas it needs be read in the context of the Tipitaka as a whole, but it seems to me that this sutta is consistent with the view that there is no prerequisite as to time, place or occasion for the development of awareness/insight. Regarding your comments about 'noting a single dhamma' (as being my idea of what the practice involves), I'd like to clarify that this is not what I meant to convey. In my view, the development of the path is just the arising of awareness or insight that experiences as it truly is any of the 'phenomena' referred to in the passage from the sutta (these phenomena are of course the 5 khandhas or 18 elements or 12 ayatanas or 4 foundations of mindfulness -- they care classified or described in the texts in many different ways). Such awareness or insight does not, as I understand it, arise by virtue of a 'practice' of noting dhammas. It arises as and when the appropriate conditions for its arising are present. These include, most importantly, having heard, understood and reflected appropriately upon the dhamma as taught by the Buddha. As regards the 'single dhamma' aspect, however, I believe that if and when awareness or insight occurs, each discrete mind-moment has as its object a single dhamma. It is by the (gradual) accumulation of such moments of awareness or insight that the enlightenment factors are developed. Jon 52601 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for your further comments and observations. Tep Sastri wrote: >>Jon: >>I would assume that whenever there is attachment for an object, there are in fact multiple moments of such attachment, not just a single >>moment, and that likewise when there is awareness/insight there are >>multiple moments of such awareness/insight (i.e. taking the same >>object). >> > >Tep: How may such assumption be useful for developing panna for >eradication of the latent tendency (anusaya)? > > I'm not completely sure I've understood your question, but let me try to answer ;-)) As I understand what I've read on the subject, cittas arise and fall away at unimaginable speed, such that even a brief moment of a perceived mind-state involves countless moments of that mind-state. It therefore follows, I believe, that when there is a perceived brief moment of awareness of mind-with-attachment (i.e., akusala followed by kusala), the reality is that there arev occurring multiple moments of each kind of consciousness, interspersed with each other. As regards the development of panna, the significance of this is that akusala mindstates are not necessarily an obstacle to the arising of awareness/insight in the succeeding moment, and so one need not be concerned about 'having kusala' as a necessary precondition to the arising of awareness/insight. >>Jon: >>This would mean that where there is awareness of an unwholesome mind-state, there are multiple moments of kusala and akusala consciousness occurring interspersed with each other. However, I have no idea what the ratio of one to the other would be (I would imagine many moments of attachment to one of awareness/insight). >> >> > >Tep: I think such a random mixing of multiple akusala moments with >kusala moments is distracting and may be causing moha, not panna. >Besides, I am not clear as to how the multiple moments of >akusaka/kusala may relate to causation of the latent tendency . > > The arising of kusala moments of consciousness cannot 'cause' akusala, so I would not see any potential for this to be distracting. By 'latent tendencies' we generally refer to those unwholesome qualities that have been previously accumulated and which lie latent in the consciousness (i.e., do not appear at the present moment). They may become manifest at any time, causing us to act in ways that are harmful to ourselves and/or others. Perhaps you see differently the occurring of awareness/insight with akusala consciousness as object (as described in the cittanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta). If so, please feel free to share your ideas or understanding with us. >>Jon: >>(This is speaking in general terms. To be more precise, we would need to speak of processes of citta rather than individual moments of >>citta. Thus the sequence B, A discussed above would be a sequence >>of mind-door processes, not of individual mind-moments.) >> >> > >Tep: I would be very interested in your further discussion of the mind- >door processes for the purpose of developing panna for eradication of >the latent tendency. :-) > > As regards our present thread, I think the significance of the teaching on processes is that kusala and aksuala moments of consciousness do not occur singly but in 'sets' of several (i.e., the 7 javana moments), as part of a longer 'set' of cittas that constitute a sense- or mind-door process. Thanks again for the comments. Jon 52602 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (Attn. Math and Nina) - Your message (#52598) contains two important points. 1. "How can a Sutta be analysed when the word most occurring in the Sutta, does not occur at all in the analysis: EMPTINESS ?" 2. How do worldlings contemplate(su~n~na) emptiness separatedly from samatha and jhana consideration? Both questions are answered by the Buddha in the following sutta quote: "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty..." [SN XXXV.85, Su~n~na Sutta: Empty.] Yours truly, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Matheesha, Nina, Tep > (snipped) > So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text of this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness > without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this > as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far > away to bother. > 52603 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thanks to you for the demonstrated consistency -- you always find time to answer my emails and have shown no emotion burst. >> > >Tep: I would be very interested in your further discussion of the mind- door processes for the purpose of developing panna for eradication of the latent tendency. :-) >> >Jon: As regards our present thread, I think the significance of the >teaching on processes is that kusala and aksuala moments of >consciousness do not occur singly but in 'sets' of several >(i.e., the 7 javana moments), as part of a longer 'set' of >cittas that constitute a sense- or mind-door process. ........................ I am sorry to say that I do not think you have answered my question, Jon. Perhaps it was mainly due my inability to communicate clearly ! So please put the blame on me for the failure of communication. {:<|) But my only point has been the following : How can your knowledge of citta, multiple moments of citta, and mind-door processes be used for eradicating of the latent tendency? Comment: If such knowledge is not helping you in eradicating anusaya, then what is the use of it? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Thanks for your further comments and observations. > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >>Jon: > >>I would assume that whenever there is attachment for an object, there are in fact multiple moments of such attachment, not just a single > >>moment, and that likewise when there is awareness/insight there are multiple moments of such awareness/insight (i.e. taking the same > >>object). > >> > > > >Tep: How may such assumption be useful for developing panna for > >eradication of the latent tendency (anusaya)? > > > > > > I'm not completely sure I've understood your question, but let me try to answer ;-)) As I understand what I've read on the subject, cittas arise > and fall away at unimaginable speed, such that even a brief moment of a perceived mind-state involves countless moments of that mind- state. It therefore follows, I believe, that when there is a perceived brief > moment of awareness of mind-with-attachment (i.e., akusala followed by kusala), the reality is that there arev occurring multiple moments of > each kind of consciousness, interspersed with each other. > > As regards the development of panna, the significance of this is that > akusala mindstates are not necessarily an obstacle to the arising of > awareness/insight in the succeeding moment, and so one need not be concerned about 'having kusala' as a necessary precondition to the arising of awareness/insight. > (snipped) 52604 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (Attn. Math and Nina) - [Please ignore the previous message that contains an error. I deleted it a little too late.] Your message (#52598) contains two important points. 1. "How can a Sutta be analysed when the word most occurring in the Sutta, does not occur at all in the analysis: EMPTINESS ?" 2. How do worldlings contemplate emptiness(su~n~na) separatedly from samatha and jhana consideration? Both questions are answered by the Buddha in the following sutta quote: "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty..." [SN XXXV.85, Su~n~na Sutta: Empty.] Yours truly, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Matheesha, Nina, Tep > (snipped) > So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text of this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness > without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this > as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far > away to bother. > 52605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >Hi Jon, > >... > >M: I'm sorry about not replying sooner, but I genuinely believe that it >is not useful to either one of us to discuss the dhamma in this rather >adversarial atmosphere. Well, no problem about taking your time to reply, in fact there is never any need to feel under any pressure or obligation to respond to my posts. My apologies if my post seemed adversarial. It was not written in that frame of mind. Actually, I deliberately limited my comments to the sutta text and translation issues, so as not to sound too 'personal', but no doubt my views and assumptions still managed to make themselves apparent ;-)) >At the very least it doesnt do my mind any good >so I 'd rather not. If you really want to you might be able to see what >im saying in the post. But going head to head just sends me in the >opposite direction from where i want to go in this path, even though it >might be culturally appropriate for you to approach it in that fashion. >Thats not why im here. Once again, im sorry, but i rather not. There is no problem with not continuing this thread. I apologise for any cultural insensitivity on my part. A general comment. I think we all appreciate the importance of gaining a better intellectual understanding of the teachings, as a necessary basis for the correct development of the path. Having one's views and assumptions questioned is a necessary and important part of that, particularly when it comes to interpretation of the suttas and other parts of the Tipitaka, because the Tipitaka is the only touchstone against which a view can be determined to be in accordance with the teachings or not, as the Buddha took pains to explain in the Parinibbana Sutta and elsewhere. Of course, the very public nature of an internet discussion forum may not be to everyone's liking. I had in fact noticed a tendency on your part to drop quietly out of threads at a certain point (e.g. your discussion with KenH on whether right view could arise before enlightenment), but had not appreciated that it was due to cultural differences. However, I know you have much to contribute to this list, given your background (from a Buddhist country) and obvious interest and intelligence, so I do hope you'll keep coming back on points of disagreement as much as you feel comfortable with. Jon 52606 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon (Attn. Matheesha, Swee, Kel) - > >I can see that you depend a great deal on only one source -- the >Nyanatiloka' Buddhist Dictionary. > > Well it's the only on-line dictionary I know of, apart from the PTS. Ven Nyanatiloka was very well versed in the Tipitaka. He is the author of a number of anthologies of texts. I have just checked the Visuddhimagga as translated by Ven Nanamoli, and find that he gives the following meanings in the glossary to his translation: bhavana - development (lit. 'making be') kammatthana - meditation subject. >>Jon: >>There' s a lot out there in the internet, and I think we have to use our >>discretion in what we choose to consider. It's always best to check for >>references (and then read the cited text for oneself). >> > >Tep: But how can our "discretion" be reliable in the field that our >practical experiences are lacking? > I think the only way is, as I say, to see what references the author gives in support of his statement/opinion, and to check those references for ourselves, as far as that is possible. >>Jon: >>As I read this, Nyanatiloka does not consider 'meditation' to be a >>suitable translation of 'bhavana'. >> >>Jon: >>I have not previously heard it suggested that the terms bhavana and >>kammatthana are identical in meaning. >> > >Tep: >I have no idea that the Nyanatiloka Dictionary is considered more >authoritative in its meditation view than the PTS and the other sources >of my research (one of which is Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's famous work). > As regards the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's work, it's not clear to me whether the use of 'meditation' is the author's own or that of his translator. In any event, no-one has been able to point to anything in the original Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'. Jon 52607 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/19/05 9:37:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > In any event, no-one has been able to point to anything in the original > Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'. > ======================= Isn't that statement a tad strong, Jon? There is the following from PTI: ____________________ Bhavana (p. 503) (f.) [fr. bhaveti, or fr. bhava in meaning of bhava 2, cp. Class. Sk. bhavana] producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation, cultivation by mind, culture. -- See on term Dhs trsl 261 (=2 240); Expos. I.217 (=DhsA 163); Cpd. 207 n. 2. <-> Cp. pari°, vi°, sam°. -- Vin I.294 (indriya°); D III.219 (three: kaya°, citta°, panna°), 221, 225, 285, 291; S I.48; Dh 73, 301; J I.196 (metta°); III.45 (id.); Nd1 143 (sanna°); Nett 91 (samatha--vipassanan); Vbh 12, 16 sq., 199, 325; Vism 130 (karana, bhavana, rakkhana; here bh.=bringing out, keeping in existence), 314 (karuna°), 317 (upekkha°); Miln 25 (°n anuyunjati); Sdhp 15, 216, 233, 451. nn--anuyoga application to meditation Vbh 244, 249. --arama joy of or pleasure in self culture A II.28. --bala power to increase the effect of meditation, power of self--culture A I.52; D III.213. --maya accomplished by culture practice; brought into existence by practice (of cultured thought), cp. Cpd. 207. D III.218, 219; Nett 8; with danamaya & silamaya at It 19, 51; Vbh 135, 325. --vidhana arrangement of process of culture DhsA 168=Vism 122. ______________________________ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52608 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:35am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? buddhistmedi... Hi, all - DSG #52606 : "In any event, no-one has been able to point to anything in the original Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'." Jon ........................... The following is some evidence showing that bhavana carries "the connotation of meditation". 1. The Metta Bhavana: A Meditation for Developing Lovingkindness. "Bhavana" means "cultivation" or "development," and "Metta" is a word that means "love," "friendliness," or "lovingkindness." So this is a meditation practice where we actively cultivate some very positive emotional states towards others, as well as to ourselves. http://www.wildmind.org/meditation/metta/intro.html 2. The Pali word for meditation practice is bhavana, which literally means 'development,' 'cultivation,' or 'culture.' Since this practice has to do directly with the mind, the word bhavana therefore refers specifically to a process of mental culture or mental development. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/getting8.htm 3. The various subjects and methods of meditation expounded in the Theravada Buddhist scriptures -- the Pali Canon and its commentaries - - divide into two inter-related systems. One is called the development of serenity (samathabhavana), the other the development of insight (vipassanabhavana). The former also goes under the name of development of concentration (samadhibhavana), the latter the development of wisdom (paññabhavana). The practice of serenity meditation aims at developing a calm, concentrated, unified mind as a means of experiencing inner peace and as a basis for wisdom. The practice of insight meditation aims at gaining a direct understanding of the real nature of phenomena. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch1 4. What is Bhavana? Bhavana means, developing, scrutinizing, meditating or the task of repeated contemplation. It is a sort of mental task by means of repeated recitation, repeated contemplation and repeated scrutinizing. http://www.nibbana.com/uttama2a.htm 5. The Pali term for meditation is bhavana: development. It's a shorthand word for the development of skillful qualities in the mind. The Agendas of Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/agendas.html 6. Glossary of Pali Buddhist Terms Bhavana: Development through meditation http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/58/122/ 7. What is meditation? Meditation is Mental Development (in Pali Bhavana). http://www.zolag.co.uk/meda.html ........................ I don't know the "original Pali term bhavana" Jon talked about. But the many references above are about the 'bhavana' that is known as development through meditation, mental development by meditation, or simply meditation (which means the development of skillful qualities in the mind). Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > >Tep: > >I have no idea that the Nyanatiloka Dictionary is considered more > >authoritative in its meditation view than the PTS and the other sources > >of my research (one of which is Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's famous work). > > > > As regards the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw's work, it's not clear to me whether > the use of 'meditation' is the author's own or that of his translator. > > In any event, no-one has been able to point to anything in the original > Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'. > > Jon > 52609 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/19/05 10:41:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > There is the following from > PTI ================== I meant "PTS". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52610 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:27am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Joop (Attn. Math and Nina) - > > Your message (#52598) contains two important points. > 1. "How can a Sutta be analysed when the word most occurring in the > Sutta, does not occur at all in the analysis: EMPTINESS ?" > 2. How do worldlings contemplate emptiness(su~n~na) separatedly > from samatha and jhana consideration? > Both questions are answered by the Buddha in the following sutta > quote: > "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty..." > [SN XXXV.85, Su~n~na Sutta: Empty.] > > Yours truly, > > Tep Hallo Tep Thanks for your answers but I don't think they are correct. Regarding my first question: it's logically not correct, an answer should something like: 'such a analysis is not complete'. And regarding my second question. 'Sunna' (emptiness) has more than one meaning, or better said: the meaning has more than one dimension. Try to change everywhere in the 'The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness' the term "emptiness" in "empty of a self" and you can see that this meaning does not fit in this Sutta. Why do you think that "a self" is the only thing that can be empty? Metta Joop > > > ====== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" > wrote: > > > > Hallo Matheesha, Nina, Tep > > > (snipped) > > So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text > of this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness > > without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this > > as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far > > away to bother. > > > 52611 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hello Joop - Let's move one step further -- let's connect the two suttas, namely, SN XXXV.85 Su~n~na Sutta, and MN 121 Cula-Su~n~ata Sutta. Note that 'cula' means "lesser" -- i.e. lesser than the SN XXXV.85. :-)) > > Tep: > > Both questions are answered by the Buddha in the following sutta > > quote: > > "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a > self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty..." > > [SN XXXV.85, Su~n~na Sutta: Empty.] > > > > Joop: > Thanks for your answers but I don't think they are correct. > Regarding my first question: it's logically not correct, an answer > should something like: 'such a analysis is not complete'. > > And regarding my second question. 'Sunna' (emptiness) has more than one meaning, or better said: the meaning has more than one dimension. > Try to change everywhere in the 'The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness' the term "emptiness" in "empty of a self" and you can see that this meaning does not fit in this Sutta. > Why do you think that "a self" is the only thing that can be empty? > Tep: Why? Because the 'self' is connected to the internal and external sensory spheres (eye&form, ear&sound, ..., mind & mind-object) that are known as "the All". It is the whole world. Further, let's examine the following paragraph from MN 121(The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness) below. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed. ... Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.'" [endquote] Tep: Do you see how important the six sensory spheres are? The "non- emptiness connects with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition". And this remaning non-emptiness must be the last thing the monk discerns in order to "enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed". That's why the emptiness in connection with the six sensory spheres as stated in SN XXXV.85 is the "All" a meditator cares about. Hope it makes sense to you. Regards, Tep ========== 52612 From: "Alan McAllister" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta, Cinta and Bhavana maya panna drampsych Sarah, The quote seems to make the point that meditating on any of the objects from the six sense doors gets you to the same insight of anatta. That seems reasonable. What I objected to in the Goenka approach was that he priviledged bodily sensations, what he calls, Vedana, and that he appears to claim that his approach is the "in-depth" way of meditating whereas other ways of meditating deal only with the surface. The quote contradicts this claim. with metta, Alan McAllister > Alan Mc, I thought of you and your comments on Goenka's technique when I > read this last part from a recent extract of Dh in Cambodia: > > "When the understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa grows, no > matter whether they appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the > tongue, the body or the mind-door, one will gradually cling less to the > wrong view of self. Insight knowledge that clearly realizes dhammas as > they are, knows the truth because panna leads to detachment from the wrong > view of self." Any comments? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > 52613 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation Samatha & Vipassana buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette (Attn. Sarah, Htoo, Ken H, Phil) - I am curious whether or not there is a typo in the quote below : They who are not aware no not die; They who are unaware are as dead. (Should the "no not" be deleted?) Now, let's discuss the more interesting part of your message : Colette's Quote: "The senses derive from physical objects, physical objects from mind, mind from intllect, intellect from ego, ego from the unmanifested seed, and the unmanifested seed from Brahman--the Uncaused Cause." Tep: I don't understand what this quote is about. .................... Colette's Quote: "Fools follow the desires of the flesh and fall into the snare of all-encompasing death; but the wise, knowing the Self as eternal, seek not the things that pass away." Tep: I, as a Buddhist, disagree with that eternal Self. ............. Colette : Death can be seen as many things yet we all got it comin', since there really isn't that much room any longer for people to grow food, maybe it was for people to throw out garbage, ... ... Tep: Ahh, I see now ! You are a materialist, possibly a Christian -- not a Buddhist. Yours truly, Tep ------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > High All, > > I just had a marvey time reading the post I'm responding to and > found, in my own way, a statement: > > "The path to the Deathless is awareness; > Unawareness, the path of death. > They who are not aware no not die; > They who are unaware are as dead." > > Dhammapada > (snipped) > Death can be seen as many things yet we all got it comin', since > there really isn't that much room any longer for people to grow food, > maybe it was for people to throw out garbage, no, maybe it was for > people to bury their oh so fond relatives, I could be wrong, since > I'm oh so very wrong about everything, but I do believe you're > running out of space, land, to place things. Hong Kong, you know how > to solve the problem though, huh? Didn't you build an airport > recently? Isn't Kobe Japan built on a landfill? hmmmmm? > 52614 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation lbidd2 Joop: "So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text of this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far away to bother." Hi Joop, The way I read this sutta contemplating emptiness *in this sutta* is by means of one-pointed concentration. You will find this feature also in the Satipatthana Sutta where it talks about the body in the body, feeling in feeling, etc., meaning not attaching other objects to the object of concentration. According to the commentary this sutta begins with a contemplation or focus on the forest then enters the first jhana with the concentration on the earth kasina, progresses through the formless jhanas, then exits jhana with focus on the ayatanas. This last concentration is called the signless concentration because it is void of signs of permanence etc. In other words, it is insight, focus on realities, unlike the jhanas which have a concept (sign) as object. In this case the insight that brings about arahantship is the realization that insight itself is impermanent. There are other ways of contemplating emptiness besides seeing that _this_ is only this and is therefore empty of all else. For example, you can see that a formation has an empty center. We begin this by recognizing the difference between nama and rupa, then expanding that to the 5 khandhas and recognizing that this formation called "me" has an empty center. Larry 52615 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:11pm Subject: The Friendly Eleven ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the 11 Advantages of cultivating Infinite & Universal Friendliness? Which also are called: The four Brahma Viharas; The four Divine States: The four Supreme States; The four Infinite States: The Buddha once said: 'Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into Friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating Amity, by making much of it frequently, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by insisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit! What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes up Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison, nor Weapons ! One easily Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm, & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment, or Panic ! One reappears after death on the Divine Brahma level, if one has penetrated to no higher level in this very life ! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Friendliness, by cultivating Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by remaining in it, by insisting on it, by fully consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a good, frequent and supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected.' Anguttara Nikaya V 342 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 52616 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 0:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > According to the commentary this sutta begins > with a contemplation or focus on the forest then enters the first jhana > with the concentration on the earth kasina, progresses through the > formless jhanas, then exits jhana with focus on the ayatanas. This last > concentration is called the signless concentration because it is void of > signs of permanence etc. Larry Before I try to understand: I have looked for a commentary but could not find. Which one do you mean, where can I find it? Metta Joop 52617 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation matheesha333 Hi Joop, J:The fact that the Cula-suññata Sutta (MN 121) is included in the > Nikayas must have a reason, it must have a funtion for wordlings. > The Buddha can not have meant it as a meditation-instruction for us, > it skips to much in a way only arahats can get at the end-level the > Buddha described in this Sutta. I'm not sure if things included in the nikayas were specially selected so that they were only for worldlings. I think they are simply general dialogues the buddha and his disciples had about the whole of the dhamma, for worldlings and those further down the path. I agree with you that the buddha seems to be talking of emptiness in a more inclusive sense than just the empty of self bit. If we open our eyes are genuinely look at a sutta without any preconcieved notions we can clearly see this. If it contradicts what we know then we must be on the lookout for alternative occurences in the suttas to support this new understanding. It's counterproductive to see higher knowledge, satipatthaana,jhanas etc as being out of reach. You have defeated yourself before you start. One myust be weary, sure. But if that weariness gets in the way of practice, then it is only vicikicca and the path is closed off to you. Perhaps the best thing to contemplate from this sutta is that there is more work to be done. metta Matheesha 52618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jonoabb Hi Nina (Mateesha, and others) I can't remember if you have the Bh Bodhi anthology 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha', but in case you don't , and for the benefit of others also, here is the contents of a footnote to the paragraph on signless liberation of the mind in AN VI, 13 that Mateesha quoted. I have broken it into 4 paragraphs for convenience; the first is as you will see a translation of the commentary on the term animittacetovimutti, while the second and third deal with references to 'signless' in other contexts. ********************************** (a) AA "The signless liberation of mind (animittacetovimutti) is strong insight; but the reciters of the Digha Nikaya say that it is the fruition attainment of arahantship, for that is called 'signless' because of the absence of the signs of lust, etc., of the signs of forms, etc., and the signs of permanence, etc." (b) In MN43 "the signless liberation of mind" is explained in a way that clearly connects it with the fruition of arahantship: there lust, hatred and delusion are declared to be "sign-makers" (nimittakarana), which the arahant has totally abandoned. (c) Elsewhere, however, a "signless concentration" (animitta-samadhi) is referred to in a context which makes it plain that the one who has attained it is not yet an arahant; see e.g., MN 121, SN 40:9. (d) The "sign of forms", etc., is nothing other than the form itself, taken as an object of attachment; see MN 138 and Comy. ********************************** Hope this saves you some research/translation time! Jon Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Matheesha, >thank you for all the trouble analysing the sutta. There is a lot here to >think over and for now >I have not much to say. I appreciate your efforts. Since I am out for the >whole day tomorrow, I have to delay reacting to posts. >The link does not work and I would like to read the sutta in the PTS >translation. I do not always agree with access to i. Some terms are not >clear. >Nina. >op 18-11-2005 16:30 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > >>"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although >>the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken >>as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- >>undertaken by me as my awareness-release, still my consciousness >>follows the drift of signs.' >> >> 52619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >>Jon: As regards our present thread, I think the significance of the >>teaching on processes is that kusala and aksuala moments of >>consciousness do not occur singly but in 'sets' of several >>(i.e., the 7 javana moments), as part of a longer 'set' of >>cittas that constitute a sense- or mind-door process. >> > >........................ > >I am sorry to say that I do not think you have answered my question, >Jon. Perhaps it was mainly due my inability to communicate clearly ! >So please put the blame on me for the failure of communication. {:<|) > >But my only point has been the following : How can your knowledge of >citta, multiple moments of citta, and mind-door processes be used for >eradicating of the latent tendency? > >Comment: If such knowledge is not helping you in eradicating anusaya, >then what is the use of it? > I think, simply put, any knowledge even at an intellectual level of the way things are is helpful to the development of the path, because our inherent wrong view of things is the greatest obstacle to that development. As I said in an earlier post, without this kind of knowledge one may doubt whether it was possible for consciousness with awareness/insight to arise in the midst of consciousness with attachment/aversion. This in turn may lead one to contemplate a form of practice designed to engender kusala so that awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising (and this I believe would be a mistake). You say: If such knowledge is not helping you in eradicating anusaya, then what is the use of it? If you are asking whether there are immediate results to be seen, the answer is 'No'. But that is not, in my view, of any concern. Hoping I've managed to give a satisfactory answer this time. Do let me know if I have still not earned a 'pass' ;-)). Jon 52620 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >In a message dated 11/19/05 9:37:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jonabbott@... writes: > > > >>In any event, no-one has been able to point to anything in the original >>Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'. >> >======================= > Isn't that statement a tad strong, Jon? There is the following from >PTI: > Thanks for citing the PTS entry for this term (which Tep also referred to in a recent post). I was talking about the word-meaning/derivation of 'bhavana'. I'm no expert at this, but it seems to me that the translation of Pali terms into English follows the Pali root, as far as that is possible. Thus, 'vipassana' is translated as 'insight', because its root is the Pali for 'see', and so on. Where such a match of word-roots is not possible, then the closest word in direct meaning and connotation will be used. As your PTS entry indicates, 'bhavana' is derived from 'bhava/bhaveti'. Ven Nanamoli gives its literal meaning as 'making be'. There is no connection with the mind, unlike the English term 'meditation'. So to translate bhavana as meditation is to introduce a gloss that the Pali term does not carry. Now if that gloss is one that is supported by the commentaries, then OK. But if it is an 'interpretation' based on a particular view of the teachings, then I question its appropriateness. Of course, the English term 'meditation' means a lot of different things to different people, so that is another factor to bear in mind in this case. But for most people it would carry the connotation of something that is done as a kind of formal, or at the very least intentional, 'practice'. Jon >____________________ >Bhavana (p. 503) (f.) [fr. bhaveti, or fr. bhava in meaning of bhava 2, cp. >Class. Sk. bhavana] producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts >to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation, cultivation by >mind, culture. -- See on term Dhs trsl 261 (=2 240); Expos. I.217 (=DhsA 163); >Cpd. 207 n. 2. <-> Cp. pari°, vi°, sam°. -- Vin I.294 (indriya°); D III.219 >(three: kaya°, citta°, panna°), 221, 225, 285, 291; S I.48; Dh 73, 301; J I.196 >(metta°); III.45 (id.); Nd1 143 (sanna°); Nett 91 (samatha--vipassanan); Vbh >12, 16 sq., 199, 325; Vism 130 (karana, bhavana, rakkhana; here bh.=bringing >out, keeping in existence), 314 (karuna°), 317 (upekkha°); Miln 25 (°n >anuyunjati); Sdhp 15, 216, 233, 451. >nn--anuyoga application to meditation Vbh 244, 249. --arama joy of or >pleasure in self culture A II.28. --bala power to increase the effect of meditation, >power of self--culture A I.52; D III.213. --maya accomplished by culture >practice; brought into existence by practice (of cultured thought), cp. Cpd. 207. D >III.218, 219; Nett 8; with danamaya & silamaya at It 19, 51; Vbh 135, 325. >--vidhana arrangement of process of culture DhsA 168=Vism 122. >______________________________ > >With metta, >Howard > > 52621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada nilovg Dear Joop (and smallchap at the end), I enjoy our exchange. You have interesting ideas worth considering. op 17-11-2005 17:22 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Nina: .... I would like to help others with as many examples from daily > life as I possibly can …" > Joop: That's correct, you do; I wish I and more people can do it. > There is only one problem: one should use examples from the daily > lifes from other (for example younger) people, not the daily life of > oneself. ------ N: Are contrarious circumstances and one's own problems caused by defilements not similar to others' problems? In the past, present and future lobha, dosa and moha cause problems. --------- > Nina: " … in order to show that the teachings help people to know > their own faults and vices and to have more understanding of their > own lives. … We have to know our true accumulations of akusala, as it > arises just now in daily life." ----------- > Joop: I know we talked about fault and vices earlier and I don't like > these words. I prefer to talk in positive terms and I think it works > better when we use positive ways of reasoning, when we talk about > possibilities. How about accumulations of kusala? > People and especially woman in the western world already hate > themselves enough, no need for more emphasis on their faults and > vices. ------- N: That is another way of looking at things. There is something in your unorthodox, independent way of thinking I like. Hating oneself is dosa, and another way of akusala. Right, this is not positive. But when there is understanding, knowing things as they really are, there cannot be aversion at the same time. There is qualitata qua peace and calm together with understanding. As to kusala accumulations, yes, but also akusala accumulations are there and should be known. It is realistic, not pessimistic to recognize that more akusala cittas arise in a day than kusala cittas. But the Buddha taught the way leading to the eradication of akusala, and that by understanding it when it appears. Very gradually. --------- > Nina: "There is no need to do something else first, to become calm > first, then there is lobha leading us away from the goal." > Joop: For a simple buddhistic mind like me, you are saying here to > modern (western) people: don't (formal) meditate? Do you really think > that this works? -------- N: I feel this works, it is the straight and sure way. Doing something else first is such a long, long detour. Why not understand what appears now: seeing, visible object, thinking with attachment about the things or person we see? Knowing the present moment is straightforward, and already difficult enough. Why make it more difficult? J: I repeat my message to you a week ago, but I think we can better > say: "Very good that you start meditating, but don't forget > meditation is only a means, not the goal" ------ N: I think you also said: develop understanding and this is good. Whatever we do or don't do stems from accumulated inclinations, it is conditioned already. --------- > Nina: "There is no need for myths to explain the truth." ------------- > Joop: O yes, there is; at least with pedagogical reasons. Stories > have a much bigger impact than sermons (dutch: preken) !!! ------- N: You are right here. In the Tipitaka and more so in the Commentaries there are many similes. It is personal. I am not so inclined to similes, but Rob M finds that it helps, and it may help. -------- J: The same with "devotion": strictly abhidhammical thought "devotion" > (for example bowing for a Buddha statue) is nonsense, but it still > can have a positive spiritual role. ------- N: According to Abhidhamma; it all depends with what kind of citta one bows. It can be with saddha, confidence. -------- J: So it should be wholesome (not for us but for who are till now not > interested in buddhism) to have modern myths, modern stories, modern > forms of devotion. ------- N: It all depends on the citta at that moment. --------- J:And modern forms of criticize society, for example > the consumerism of our society. -------- N: Best to help people to recognize their own lobha, and, I have to add, first of all I should recognize my own lobha. Actually, that is why I said (in a rhetorical question) to smallchap: are we attached to our home, nice food, etc. Meaning: we all are of course, it is quite natural, but we can realize the truth. ------- J: (And, to remember the start of this thread: the decline of Buddha > Sasana in 5000 years is part of a myth) -------- N: OK we see this differently. Nina. 52622 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, op 18-11-2005 05:06 schreef Phil op philco777@...: Recently I have said that there can be > benefits from abstaining from gross akusala even without > understanding - which may or may not contradict A. Sujin, I don't > know and it doesn't matter - but to hope for sati without > understanding is a contradiction in terms. Sati is not thinking > about sati, or wanting sati. ------- N: understanding>, nobody denies that when there are hiri and ottappa even without understanding, the citta is kusala. The sobhana cetasikas which are abstention, virati cetasikas, perform their function. --------- Ph: Listening is good because I can hear the same difficult points > come up again and again without having to ask A. Sujin to explain > again and again. Whereas I ask you to explain here again and again > and again and again. But I know that helps you (and others) too, so > I don't worry about it too much. ------ N: No Problem. In Dh in Cambodia you will see that vipassana ñaanas come up again and again. We also had to listen many times, and still... Of course the subject is difficult. -------- op 19-11-2005 02:04 schreef Phil op philco777@...: The > definitions of the khandas in the suttanta are really quite vague. > Abhidhamma gives us a firmer grasp of the meaning of the khandas at > the intellectual level, and this is an essential condition for more > direct understanding later. -------- N: I would not call the suttas vague, it is explained that the khandhas are past, present future, inside or outside, near or far, coarse or subtle. But now, in the Visuddhimagga we learn more details. We learn that nama and rupa that arise and fall away never return. Similar nama and rupa arise but even if they are the same types they can never be identical. Nina. 52623 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, all - > >DSG #52606 : "In any event, no-one has been able to point to anything >in the original Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation >of 'meditation'." Jon > >........................... > >The following is some evidence showing that bhavana carries "the >connotation of meditation". > > Thanks for going to the trouble of finding all these passages from the internet. I think what they show is that for many people development of the mind involves 'meditation' (whatever that term means). However, most of them agree that the proper meaning of bhavana is development. Unfortunately, none of them explains why development of the mind must mean meditation, or why they see it necessary to introduce this additional concept into the discussion. >1. The Metta Bhavana: A Meditation for Developing Lovingkindness. > >"Bhavana" means "cultivation" or "development," and "Metta" is a >word that means "love," "friendliness," or "lovingkindness." So this is a >meditation practice where we actively cultivate some very positive >emotional states towards others, as well as to ourselves. >http://www.wildmind.org/meditation/metta/intro.html > > Note that the actual meaning of bhavana is given as cultivation or development. The idea of 'meditation' is something extra that is introduced by the author. There is no idea of 'meditation practice' within either of the terms bhavana or metta. >2. The Pali word for meditation practice is bhavana, which literally >means 'development,' 'cultivation,' or 'culture.' Since this practice has >to do directly with the mind, the word bhavana therefore refers >specifically to a process of mental culture or mental development. >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/getting8.htm > > Here also the author agrees that bhavana means 'development,' 'cultivation,' or 'culture'. >3. The various subjects and methods of meditation expounded in the >Theravada Buddhist scriptures -- the Pali Canon and its commentaries - >- divide into two inter-related systems. One is called the development >of serenity (samathabhavana), the other the development of insight >(vipassanabhavana). The former also goes under the name of >development of concentration (samadhibhavana), the latter the >development of wisdom (paññabhavana). The practice of serenity >meditation aims at developing a calm, concentrated, unified mind as a >means of experiencing inner peace and as a basis for wisdom. The >practice of insight meditation aims at gaining a direct understanding of >the real nature of phenomena. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch1 > > Here also the author agrees that bhavana means development. >4. What is Bhavana? > >Bhavana means, developing, scrutinizing, meditating or the task of >repeated contemplation. It is a sort of mental task by means of >repeated recitation, repeated contemplation and repeated scrutinizing. > >http://www.nibbana.com/uttama2a.htm > > The author gives no sources for his description of bhavana, so we cannot check his comments. >5. The Pali term for meditation is bhavana: development. It's a >shorthand word for the development of skillful qualities in the mind. > >The Agendas of Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/agendas.html > > Here also the author agrees that bhavana means development (of the skilful qualities of the mind) >6. Glossary of Pali Buddhist Terms >Bhavana: Development through meditation >http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/58/122/ > > We are not told why the words 'through meditation' are included. >7. What is meditation? >Meditation is Mental Development (in Pali Bhavana). > >http://www.zolag.co.uk/meda.html > > Here the question being asked is 'What is meditation?', not, 'What does bhavana mean?'. In summary, I would say there seems to be a general consensus among these various authors that bhavana means development. Jon 52624 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation htootintnaing Tep: That automatic shut-down: are you talking about "life continuum" > during absorption, or something else? How does such a time delay > occur? > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > ============ Dear Tep, Apology for delay. No. I was not talking on bhavanga or life-continuum. I cannot sense life continuum by myself. Time delay there mean that '' at that time 5 senses can easily enter. But once absorbed they cannot enter the mind. Because the mind is busy with hard object and would not move to anywhere. With Metta, Htoo Naing 52625 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:16am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Sébastien, There was another post I made which includes another type of DO cycle (e.g., in Arhants), see if you can find it and reply to it. You comment is good and there is some truth to it. However, the elements and the cycles of DO are still more complex (both interdependent and independent). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Charles, By "one", I meant an being, an individual believing to have an atta. Concerning the elements of the cycle of dependant origination I believe they are concomitant and interdependant, none of them can be called the first, even if some of them are aborded first for explanation. (Hope my english is correct). Sébastien > You stated: "If there is a "one", it means that this "one" is already in > the > circle. There is no "one" outside this circle fueled by ignorance, craving > etc. > > What do you mean by "one" ? > > In the end I was going to say: "The elements of the cycles of DO are > relative, this is why you can enter or leave after any element, or even > appear to have skipped some." 52626 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:46am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Practice/Ken dacostacharles Hi Connie, This is what I am trying to say (the problem is bigger then Ignorance). I will add this to the thread on the two types of DO I created and reply. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of connie Sent: Saturday, 19 November, 2005 02:12 To: dsg Subject: [dsg] Re: Practice/Ken dear Nina, Charles, other friends and adversaries, Charles: My point in all this is that ignorance is not the only problem, the lack of either morality (basic goodness) or inner strength are also problems. This is way the 4 NT points to an 8 fold process that can be grouped into 3 areas. N: Many ways to view D.O. Multiple causes and multiple fruits as we read in the Vis. Noy just one cause and one fruit. Not all factors are mentioned in each instance. Nina. Connie: Another way (Petakopadesa, Nanamoli): "The consecutive order of the search" can be grouped into 3: 16 modes of conveying, 5 guide lines and 18 root terms where the 9 which are the Origin of Suffering (with Suffering as fruit) being Ignorance, craving, greed, hate, delusion; Perception of Beauty, of Pleasure, of Permanence, of Self and 9 are the Way Leading to Cessation (with Cessation as fruit): Quiet, insight, non-greed, non-hate, non-delusion; (the mindfulness-foundations:) Perception of Ugliness, of Pain, of Impermanence, of Not-Self. peace, connie 52627 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] 2 types of DO dacostacharles dear Nina, Charles, other friends and adversaries, Charles: My point in all this is that ignorance is not the only problem, the lack of either morality (basic goodness) or inner strength are also problems. This is way the 4 NT points to an 8 fold process that can be grouped into 3 areas. N: Many ways to view D.O. Multiple causes and multiple fruits as we read in the Vis. Noy just one cause and one fruit. Not all factors are mentioned in each instance. Nina. Connie: Another way (Petakopadesa, Nanamoli): "The consecutive order of the search" can be grouped into 3: 16 modes of conveying, 5 guide lines and 18 root terms where the 9 which are the Origin of Suffering (with Suffering as fruit) being Ignorance, craving, greed, hate, delusion; Perception of Beauty, of Pleasure, of Permanence, of Self and 9 are the Way Leading to Cessation (with Cessation as fruit): Quiet, insight, non-greed, non-hate, non-delusion; (the mindfulness-foundations:) Perception of Ugliness, of Pain, of Impermanence, of Not-Self. peace, connie -----Original Message----- Twelve Links: The Two Aspects of Interdependent Co-Arising When Conditioned by the "True Mind" and the "Deluded Mind." The Links within True Mind: Clear Understanding -- Great Aspiration -- Four Wisdoms -- Transformation body -- Result Body -- Mindfulness of contact -- Mindfulness of Feeling -- Four Immeasurable Minds -- Freedom -- Wondrous Being -- Wisdom of No-Birth -- Wisdom of No-Death -- Clear Understanding. The Links within a Deluded Mind: Ignorance -- Volition Action -- Consciousness -- Mind/Body -- 6 Sense organs & their Objects -- Contact -- Feeling -- Craving -- Grasping -- Coming to Be -- Birth -- Old age & Death -- Ignorance. I don't remember where I found this but I think it is Mahayana. I have another version based on the Forest monk tradition of Thailand. I will post it later (I have to find it first). Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta 52628 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:58am Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) sbillard2000 Hi Charles, >There was another post I made which includes another type of DO cycle >(e.g., >in Arhants), see if you can find it and reply to it. Yes I read them but didn't fully understood your question so I didn't answered... Could develop more perhaps ? As I understand it arahants and even buddhas are ordinary beings, it is juste that by right means (panna, sila, bhavana), they broke the DO circle. Their DO circle is the same. >You comment is good and there is some truth to it. However, the elements >and >the cycles of DO are still more complex (both interdependent and >independent). How could they be independant ? Nothing can happen without cause, no ? Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52629 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/20/05 4:32:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Thanks for citing the PTS entry for this term (which Tep also referred > to in a recent post). > > I was talking about the word-meaning/derivation of 'bhavana'. > > I'm no expert at this, but it seems to me that the translation of Pali > terms into English follows the Pali root, as far as that is possible. > Thus, 'vipassana' is translated as 'insight', because its root is the > Pali for 'see', and so on. Where such a match of word-roots is not > possible, then the closest word in direct meaning and connotation will > be used. > > As your PTS entry indicates, 'bhavana' is derived from 'bhava/bhaveti'. > Ven Nanamoli gives its literal meaning as 'making be'. There is no > connection with the mind, unlike the English term 'meditation'. > > So to translate bhavana as meditation is to introduce a gloss that the > Pali term does not carry. > > Now if that gloss is one that is supported by the commentaries, then > OK. But if it is an 'interpretation' based on a particular view of the > teachings, then I question its appropriateness. > > Of course, the English term 'meditation' means a lot of different things > to different people, so that is another factor to bear in mind in this > case. But for most people it would carry the connotation of something > that is done as a kind of formal, or at the very least intentional, > 'practice'. > > Jon ======================= Jon, with regard to <>, I can only respond with "So what?" That semantic phenomenon in which words have a literal core meaning that is developed in multiple directions is one of the most common of linguistic phenomena. Virtually every word in every language exhibits that. For example, the English word 'cultivate', which has so many different meanings, including the developing of all sorts of things, including artistic ability, good taste, a liking for olives, etc., derives core meanings from the Latin 'colo', 'colui', 'cultum' of "cultivate" (in the sense of tilling the soil) and "cherish" (as in adoring the gods). To use that fact to attempt to justify the claim that 'bhavana' doesn't commonly include "meditation" as part of its meaning strikes me as at best silly. Jon, do you have some more authoritative source than PTS we should rely on? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52630 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed and Undirected Meditation/ Processing Dealy buddhistmedi... > Htoo: > > Apology for delay. No. I was not talking on bhavanga or life- continuum. > I cannot sense life continuum by myself. Time delay there mean that '' > at that time 5 senses can easily enter. But once absorbed they cannot > enter the mind. Because the mind is busy with hard object and would > not move to anywhere. > No problem with the delay (internally or externally). Thank you for the explanation. It sounds like the "processing" delays in many computer and communication systems. Regards, Tep =========== 52631 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ?/ Mount Sumeru buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - One quality in your posts I always admire is your coolness -- listening and responding with no emotion. But what I have found a little frustrating is your jumping to conclusion. For example, you wrote : Jon: Unfortunately, none of them explains why development of the mind must mean meditation, or why they see it necessary to introduce this additional concept into the discussion. Tep: "None of them" !? Have you read all the seven referenced documents I introduced? If you have, then I must congratulate you for being an extremely fast reader who can digest all the pages of those articles. ................. Jon: In summary, I would say there seems to be a general consensus among these various authors that bhavana means development. Tep: Okay, Jon. It is fine with me if that conclusion makes you feel satisfied. You are unshakable like mount sumeru. :-)) Ref. "Mount Meru or Mount Sumeru is a sacred mountain in Hindu and Buddhist mythology considered to be the center of the universe. It is believed to be the abode of Brahma and other deities of both religions. The mountain is said to be 80,000 leagues (450,000 km) high and located in Jambu dweepa, one of the continents on earth in Hindu mythology." From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > (snipped) > I think what they show is that for many people development of the mind involves 'meditation' (whatever that term means). However, most of them agree that the proper meaning of bhavana is development. > > Unfortunately, none of them explains why development of the mind must mean meditation, or why they see it necessary to introduce this > additional concept into the discussion. > (snipped) 52632 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn Hallo Tep, Larry, Jon, Matheesha, all Tep: "Cula-Su~n~ata Sutta. Note that 'cula' means "lesser" -- i.e. lesser than the SN XXXV.85" You must know better, Tep, is this a joke or are you trying to convince me with false arguments? MN 121 got the name 'Cula Sunnata Sutta' because there was also a Sunnata Sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya that contained more words: the 'Maha Sunnata Sutta' (MN 122). There are many of this kind of couples, for example MN109 &MN110, MN135 &MN136. And more general: do you suggest that there is a fixed and by the Buddha Himself authorized hierarchy between the Sutttas? I think not. The rest of your message is better, now I understand what you meant with #52604 Your analysis concerns the last part of the Sutta, not the first one, Tep: "o you see how important the six sensory spheres are?" J: I knew that already, that's the topic of many Suttas and many DSG- messages, but why did the Buddha it in this way of the Sutta? Perception of Village | Perception of Human Beings | Perception of Forest | Perception of Earth | Perception of the Base of Infinite Sky or Space | Perception of the Base of Infinite Consciousness | Perception of the Base of Nothingness | Perception of the Base of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception | Concentration of Mind Without Cause One question: Tep "That's why the emptiness in connection with the six sensory spheres as stated in SN XXXV.85 is the "All" a meditator cares about." My question: do you mean that at the end of the meditation aslo the six sensory spheres are experienced to be empty? Or/and that the "All" is empty? That's nearly the Heart Sutra. Matheesha, I agree with your #52617, opinions and advice. Only two remark on your idea that I should "jhanas etc as being out of reach" The first is that on all meditation teacher I know, only give vipassana (insight) meditation Mahasi style, that I think doing samatha till jhana will be good for me but hesitate doing it alone in my room wothout a teacher. The second is that I meant to say: MN 121 is perhaps not a jhana instruction but is about another method: not 'formal' meditation but what I defined as contemplation. Jon, your message is not about 'emptiness', what I try to keep the topic of this thread ('thread disciple', you know; but I know you reacted to Nina); so it doesn't need a reaction of me. Larry, without having had till now the possibility to read the (a) commentary to MN 121, thanks for your short description of it. When compared to the scheme of the Sutta above, we can see that's not exactly the phases of the jhanas. So I'm not sure that you and/or the commentator is correct. Why did the Buddha not use the term 'jhana' when He described what he has be doing? I have a theory about the old commentators. Like all human beings they are scared to hear unknown, uncomprehensible things, mystic texts. And then they try to change the content of such a text (for example MN 121) in something they know and understand, for example the phases of the 8 jhanas or the anatta doctrine. I'm sure this theory is in general terms correct but I don't know if it fits this Sutta. Larry: "In other words, it is insight, focus on realities, unlike the jhanas which have a concept (sign) as object. In this case the insight that brings about arahantship is the realization that insight itself is impermanent." J: To me this is another topic than 'contemplating emptiness', but important enough to react. Two remark; first you say that 'focus on realities' is 'insight'; to me it goes the other way: realities occur without focus and with enough concentration it's possible to have 'insight' in them; and of course is insight impermanent, a meditating wordling can experience that. The second remark is: the Buddha was fully awakened so had no need to get a arahant, so why did He do this exercise? Larry you end your mesage and the desription of the Sutta with: "formation called "me" has an empty center." J: Now we are back to the favorite DSG-topic, the not-me. As I said many times: the Buddha teached about more topics than anatta; in the first place about dukkha and in the second about anicca. I don't disagree with you that "formation called "me" has an empty center." But was it the function of the Sutta to tell us this message? Metta Joop 52633 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation : Nibbana buddhistmedi... Dear Joop - I am satisfied with your reply -- I feel that the key message has been received (not overlooked). > > > > Tep: "Cula-Su~n~ata Sutta. Note that 'cula' means "lesser" -- > > >i.e. lesser than the SN XXXV.85" >Joop: > You must know better, Tep, is this a joke or are you trying to > convince me with false arguments? MN 121 got the name 'Cula Sunnata Sutta' because there was also a Sunnata Sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya that contained more words: the 'Maha Sunnata Sutta' (MN 122). There are many of this kind of couples, for example MN109 &MN110, MN135 ... ... >Joop: > My question: do you mean that at the end of the meditation aslo >the six sensory spheres are experienced to be empty? >Or/and that the "All" is empty? That's nearly the Heart Sutra. > Tep: It was partially a joke (Is it a bad practice to have a little humor in a dhamma discussion?). On the other hand, I was not joking. SN XXXV.85 is indeed the sutta that is "all" a Buddhist meditator needs to know about emptiness. Once you see emptiness of self (anatta) in all dhamma ('Sabbe dhamma anatta') you'll see Nibbana. Nibbana is empty of the six sensory spheres and all things (that are conditioned dhammas). Correct me, please, if I am off-track again. Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Tep, Larry, Jon, Matheesha, all > > &MN136. > And more general: do you suggest that there is a fixed and by the > Buddha Himself authorized hierarchy between the Sutttas? I think not. > > The rest of your message is better, now I understand what you meant > with #52604 > Your analysis concerns the last part of the Sutta, not the first one, > Tep: "o you see how important the six sensory spheres are?" > J: I knew that already, that's the topic of many Suttas and many DSG- > messages, but why did the Buddha it in this way of the Sutta? > Perception of Village > | > Perception of Human Beings > | > Perception of Forest > | > Perception of Earth > | > Perception of the Base of Infinite Sky or Space > | > Perception of the Base of Infinite Consciousness > | > Perception of the Base of Nothingness > | > Perception of the Base of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception > | > Concentration of Mind Without Cause > > One question: Tep "That's why the emptiness in connection with the > six sensory spheres as stated in SN XXXV.85 is the "All" a meditator > cares about." (snipped) > (snipped) 52634 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - With regard to semantic drift and the inclusion of "meditation" as part of the meaning of 'bhavana', I bring the following sites to your attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_shift Also, from the site: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/lectures/05lect21.html, please note Semantic Change and its Causes > > Semantic Narrowing > Red Square: Russian krasnyj = "colorful > "red" > drugs, disease, deer, meat, golden > dress > to dress "put on clothes" > dress > a dress > > Semantic Broadening: > holy day > holiday > Lady > lady > a park > to park "put in park" > "put in any place" > a ship > to ship "send by ship" > "send (large object)", ship by bus > Pejoration: drugs > dope(head) > wench > silly > disease > (not to mention the words for 'cat' and 'rooster') > > > Amelioration: > pretty 'sly, cunning' > knight 'boy' > > > Metaphorical drift: > Drive carefully, the road is oily (has oil > is slippery) > Look out for him, he's an oily character (is slippery > untrustworthy) (In particular, note semantic broadening and metaphorical drift.) Finally, the following seems to be a fairly complete discussion of meaning change, and I think it is useful: http://www.langmaker.com/ml0104.htm#1 With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52635 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation lbidd2 Joop: "I don't disagree with you that "formation called "me" has an empty center." But was it the function of the Sutta to tell us this message?" Hi Joop, The answer to your question is no, this last way of understanding emptiness is an alternate way, as I said. There are at least two ways of understanding emptiness, as dependence and as aloneness. We see this in the Mahayana as well where the Madhyamikas take the view that emptiness is dependence and those who advocate Buddha Nature take the view that emptiness is aloneness. This sutta presents emptiness as aloneness (this is only this). Other suttas present emptiness as dependence. Maybe if our Tibetan comes back we can ask him about this. I believe it is called "empty of self" and "empty of other" in Tibetan philosophy. I think it is alright if you take a very literal interpretation of this sutta and don't want to think about developing jhana. Even with a literal interpretation, contemplating emptiness is a matter of concentration _in_this_sutta_. So the real question is what is concentration? Larry 52636 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:14am Subject: Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes. Sumeru Strong buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (Howard and Sarah) - As usual, I enjoy reading your post with a mixed feeling of admiration and frustration. Fortunately, the frustration part is weak and, I can assure you, it is very far from aversion. Yet, I am working to reduce it further -- because it is a defilement of the mind ! "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind? (1) Covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4) hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8) jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12) presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity... and (16) negligence are defilements of the mind. ... ... ... ... "He knows: 'I have given up, renounced, let go, abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part'; and he gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains enthusiasm for the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened, joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him who is happy becomes concentrated. ... ... Majjhima Nikaya 7, Vatthupama Sutta: The Simile of the Cloth; Edited by Nyanaponika Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn7.html http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/007-vatthupama-sutta-e2.htm ............................. > >Jon: >As I said in an earlier post, without this kind of knowledge [ Tep: knowledge of citta, multiple moments of citta, and mind-door processes ] one may doubt whether it was possible for consciousness with awareness/insight to arise in the midst of consciousness with attachment/aversion. This in turn may lead one to contemplate a form of practice designed to engender kusala so that awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising (and this I believe would be a mistake). Tep: How would you develop that kind of knowledge? Further, how advanced would that "kind of knowledge" be, before it may lead you "to contemplate a form of practice designed to engender kusala so that awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising" ? Why do you believe that would be a mistake?? ............................. >Jon: >You say: If such knowledge is not helping you in eradicating anusaya, then what is the use of it? >If you are asking whether there are immediate results to be seen, the answer is 'No'. But that is not, in my view, of any concern. Tep: But is there any hope when there is no concern? If there is no hope, is there any fear that you may be wasting your time doing what you are suggesting? If there is neither hope nor fear, then is there any assurance that you may get the result that meets your expectation? If there is no expectation, then what is it that you have in your mind if not "nothingness"? But, how could nothingness give rise to your hope that "awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising" ? It seems that we are back to square zero again -- like a dog chasing its tail. ........................... >Jon: >Hoping I've managed to give a satisfactory answer this time. Do let me know if I have still not earned a 'pass' ;-)). Tep: It is funny, Jon, very funny. But a Sumeru-strong person like you should not care about a "passing grade" from a 100-pound weakling like me. :->)) . Regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >>Jon: As regards our present thread, I think the significance of the > >>teaching on processes is that kusala and aksuala moments of > >>consciousness do not occur singly but in 'sets' of several > >>(i.e., the 7 javana moments), as part of a longer 'set' of > >>cittas that constitute a sense- or mind-door process. > >> (snipped) 52637 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Geez, thanks for the semantic lesson for Jon. I hope it will ring the bell. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi again, Jon - > > With regard to semantic drift and the inclusion of "meditation" as > part of the meaning of 'bhavana', I bring the following sites to your attention: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_shift > > > Also, from the site: > http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/lectures/05lect21.html, please note > > Semantic Change and its Causes > > (snipped) 52638 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:30am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and Joop)- I truly apprciate your following remarks : > Math: > > It's counterproductive to see higher knowledge, satipatthaana,jhanas > etc as being out of reach. You have defeated yourself before you > start. One must be weary, sure. But if that weariness gets in the way > of practice, then it is only vicikicca and the path is closed off to > you. Perhaps the best thing to contemplate from this sutta is that > there is more work to be done. > Well said, Math. Respectfully, Tep ===== 52639 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon) - In a message dated 11/20/05 12:20:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > > Hi, Howard - > > Geez, thanks for the semantic lesson for Jon. I hope it will ring the bell. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep ======================== Well, I wouldn't call it a "lesson." I was just passing on some information that I thought he and others might find useful. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52640 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and Joop (Howard, Jon, Matheesha, Nina) - Larry, I believe your answer to Joop below hits the nail on the head. Congratulations ! But, of course, Joop will disagree. :-)) >Larry: Even with a literal interpretation, contemplating emptiness is a >matter of concentration _in_this_sutta_. So the real question is > what is concentration? > Can you answer that question yourself, Larry? Further, please also answer the following questions, if you don't mind : And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward? Regards, Tep =========== 52641 From: nina Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:35am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, When attachment, aversion or conceit arise, or when we enjoy ourselves, there is no person, no self. When there is the firm remembrance of the truth of anattå, a person will not have misunderstandings about it and believe that he can do whatever he likes because everything is anattå anyway. Then he uses anattå as a trick to excuse his behaviour and he gives his own interpretation of this term. As regards the truth of anattå, does paññå grasp already its meaning? Or do we just repeat that everything is anattå? There is a considerable difference in the understanding of someone who merely studies the theory of the Dhamma and of someone who develops paññå and knows the characteristics of realities as they are. We should understand this correctly: if we know only terms and names of dhammas, we shall remain only at that level, and we shall continue to know only terms. We should develop paññå so that the truth of anattå can be realized, in accordance with the teaching that all dhammas are anattå. Otherwise, to use a simile, we are like the ladle that serves the curry but does not know the taste of it [3]. If we study but we do not realize the true nature of realities, how many lives shall we be only at that level, and this means that we study and then forget what we learnt. If we know that we study with the purpose of understanding realities at this very moment, then such understanding will be in accordance with our ability. We can understand, for example, what årammaùa, object, is. It is impossible that citta does not experience an object. Citta is the reality that experiences and thus there must be something that is experienced. That which is experienced can be anything, it can be citta, cetasika, rúpa or nibbåna. A concept, paññatti , is the object of citta that thinks. We can know when the citta knows a concept and when an ultimate reality, paramattha dhamma. Every paramattha dhamma that is the object of citta, has a characteristic, and that characteristic is impermanence; it arises and falls away. When the object is not a paramattha dhamma with its true characteristic, the object is a concept. If we understand this, sati can be aware of the characteristics of paramattha dhammas, because satipatthåna must know paramattha dhammas. The study can support correct understanding of the way of development of paññå. Everything we learn from the beginning is accumulated as the khandha of formations, sankhårakkhandha, and this is a condition for the growth of pañña. -------- foonote: 3. The ladle that serves the curry is time and again in contact with the curry, but does not know the taste. Evenso, all realities are anattå, but we do not realize this. ***** Nina. 52642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditations - Mindfullness Uncertainty, going. nilovg Hi Leo, This was discussed some time ago. In the suttas the Buddha used conventional language like I am walking in order to explain the truth. The point is when he is walking he can be aware so that he understands that there are only nama and rupa. Understanding is the purpose. I quotefrom the Commentary: Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Subcommentary: But the knowledge of this meditator sheds the belief in a living being, knocks out the idea of a soul, and is both a subject of meditation and the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Indeed, who goes, whose going is it, on what account is this going? These words refer to the knowledge of the (act of) going (the mode of deportment) of the meditating bhikkhu. In the elucidation of these questions the following is said: Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity. Because of that this yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall go," that thought produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called going. The same is the method of exposition as regards the other postures: standing and so forth. *** Nina. op 18-11-2005 19:38 schreef Leo op leoaive@...: > There is no talk about "I AM WALKING" > It looks to me common way of Sattipathana is not translated very > accurate, or there is some kind of mistake was done when it was > recorded. 52643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation nilovg Hi Matheesha, I just did a little cross reference about animitta, and I am aware of it that it may have different meanings in different contexts. I will not draw any conclusions yet. Meanwhile I also saw Jon's references to this subject. I also asked one of the Pali teachers, and perhaps Sarah would tell us more about the animitta dhammas. Here it goes: Ang. Book of Sevens, VII, 53, PTS and footnote to animitta: the dweller in the signless: sabbanimittaana.m amanasikaaraa (not paying attention to all nimittas), animitta.m cetosamaadhi.m viharati ( he dwells in concentration of heart). Co explains: of all nimittas of permanence (niccaa) etc. elsewhere: of ruupa etc. (the five khandhas). . elsewhere: raagaadhinimittaabhavena: by the absence of raaga (lobha) etc. Thus: lobha, dosa, moha. When we read here about samaadhi, note that in texts about lokuttara citta, samaadhi can refer to calm of the strength of jhaana also for sukha vipassaka. And also: samaadhi can refer to samaadhi with frrition consciousness according to the Co. When the latter arises defilements have been eradicated by the magga-citta and there is the highest peace. Samaadhi can mean concentration but it can also stand for calm. Ang Book of Sixes, VI, 13: Middle Length Saying, no 43: the freedom of mind that is signless. Co: phala samaapatti. The conditions: paying no attention to any signs and paying attention to the signless realm, and a preceding preparation. This is for someone who has developed jhana and vipassana. Footnote: Co: this is nibbaana. Bhikkhu Bodhi adds in a footnote in the "Root of Existence" (p. 6): Because these defilements are the real causes for yhe signs the worldling perceives in things, they are called in the texts signmakers, nimittakara.na. Buddhist Dictionary Ven. Nyanatiloke mentions: Vis. XXII, among the 18 kinds of proncipal insight: 11: contemplation of the unconditioned, animitta, 12 of the desirelessness (appa.nihita) 13 of the emptiness (suññattaa). He also mentions under ceto vimutti, which is in the highest sense the fruition of arahatship: animitta ceto vimutti: freedom from the conditions for existence. Thus: freedom from conditioned dhammas. Nina. 52644 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:19pm Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Nina, I agree with you both times! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Charles D, op 17-11-2005 18:15 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > You are right 100%, but then due the suttra claim it is the complete > explanation? I have to ask; can a person with wisdom suffer or be the cause > of suffering? ------ N: See Dh in Cambodia today for the meanings of dukkha. Someone with wisdom who is not an arahat will be reborn, he is not freed from dukkha: there will be arising of nama and rupa in rebirth. I am thinking of sankhara dukkha. -------- Ch: Can a person without the inner strength to follow her Buddha inspired wisdom > suffer or be the cause of suffering? > > My point in all this is that ignorance is not the only problem, the lack of > either morality (basic goodness) or inner strength are also problems. This > is way the 4 NT points to an 8 fold process that can be grouped into 3 > areas. ------ N: Many ways to view D.O. Multiple causes and multiple fruits as we read in the Vis. Noy just one cause and one fruit. Not all factors are mentioned in each instance. Nina. 52645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ?/ Mount Sumeru jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >One quality in your posts I always admire is your coolness -- listening >and responding with no emotion. But what I have found a little frustrating >is your jumping to conclusion. For example, you wrote : > >Jon: Unfortunately, none of them explains why development of the mind >must mean meditation, or why they see it necessary to introduce this >additional concept into the discussion. > >Tep: "None of them" !? Have you read all the seven referenced >documents I introduced? If you have, then I must congratulate you for >being an extremely fast reader who can digest all the pages of those >articles. > > My comments were limited to the excerpts you had quoted. I did not read the whole passages (I am not a fast reader ;-)). Jon 52646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > ... > > Jon, with regard to <derived from 'bhava/bhaveti'. Ven Nanamoli gives its literal meaning as 'making be'. > There is no >connection with the mind, unlike the English term 'meditation'.>>, I can only >respond with "So what?" That semantic phenomenon in which words have a >literal core meaning that is developed in multiple directions is one of the most >common of linguistic phenomena. Virtually every word in every language exhibits >that. For example, the English word 'cultivate', which has so many different >meanings, including the developing of all sorts of things, including artistic >ability, good taste, a liking for olives, etc., derives core meanings from the >Latin 'colo', 'colui', 'cultum' of "cultivate" (in the sense of tilling the >soil) and "cherish" (as in adoring the gods). > To use that fact to attempt to justify > the claim that 'bhavana' doesn't commonly include "meditation" as part of >its meaning strikes me as at best silly. Jon, do you have some more >authoritative source than PTS we should rely on? > > We may be talking at cross-purposes here. I thought this discussion was about using 'meditation' as a translation of 'bhavana', not about whether 'bhavana' commonly includes meditation as part of its meaning. This is not, as I see it, a question of semantic drift. Jon >With metta, >Howard 52647 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Howard - > >Geez, thanks for the semantic lesson for Jon. I hope it will ring the bell. > > ;-)), ;-)) I'm afraid I'm a sad case and it may take more than Howard's lesson on semantics to do the trick. Seriously though, as I said to Howard, the question is not what 'bhavana' includes, but whether it should be *equated with* the English term 'meditation'. If we could keep this narrow issue, it may help us reach some agreement. Earlier you said: "One quality in your posts I always admire is your coolness -- listening and responding with no emotion. ...". Well, it's not that the emotion doesn't arise, but I try to keep my replies on the list as 'matter of fact' as possible, for obvious reasons. But (as we often say here) there is more akusala than kusala, and so there are times when the akusala manifests in my posts, by making comments that are not a necessary part of my reply and would better be left unsaid, as I think has happened recently. I hope these indiscretions can be overlooked by others. Tep, while on this general subject, your posts of late have been very cheery (despite the usual provocative content of my posts ;-)), which I have much appreciated. As it can't be the India effect in your case, is there some other cause you can identify for the positive change? ;-)) ? Wishing you the best for the rest of the weekend (which is already over here). Jon 52648 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:14pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 4 gazita2002 hello Nina, would you explain a little more on this sentence, as I don't understand what it means. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Dear friends, .....snip..... > > Everything we learn from the beginning is > accumulated as the khandha of formations, sankhårakkhandha, and this is a > condition for the growth of pañña. > -------- > Nina. azita: why only sankharakkhandha, and not sannakhandha as well. Isn't 'remembering' an important aspect of this accumulation? thanx in advance. patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 52649 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina (and Sarah at the end) > N: > understanding>, nobody denies that when there are hiri and ottappa even > without understanding, the citta is kusala. OK, I just find when I'm listening sometimes this doesn't come though so clearly. Well, for example the notion of wanting to have less akusala is always assumed to be akusala. But I think when we reflect on the Buddha's many suttas in which he warns of the danger of akusala, of "declining from wholesome states" it can condition wanting to have less akusala. And though there is bound to be self involved, it is still helpful wanting for those of us who are prey to really dreadful temptations. Not wholesome chanda, still lobha and wrong view, but lobha and wrong view which *can* at times (and only "at times") save us from further accumulating tendencies which can lead to dreadful transgressions. But this is my own little trip, it is wrong view, so I shouldn't expect that A. Sujin would expound it. The wonderful thing about listening to her approach to Dhamma is so pure and uncompromising. Of course, that is wrong too, because it is not *her* approach, it is just Dhamma. I really appreciate hearing it >The sobhana cetasikas which are > abstention, virati cetasikas, perform their function. So if they arise without understanding, they are still kusala? This is the sort of thing that still confuses me at times - we sometimes hear how very rare kusala is, but we know that abstaining from akusala is not so rare. So there are different degrees of kusala, I guess. Perhaps that is the "strong" and "weak" that A. Sujin says she prefers to "prompted" and "unprompted." But really, Nina, as I said the other day this is the sort of thing that I will have to understand gradually or not at all. > --------- > Ph: Listening is good because I can hear the same difficult points > > come up again and again without having to ask A. Sujin to explain > > again and again. Whereas I ask you to explain here again and again > > and again and again. But I know that helps you (and others) too, so > > I don't worry about it too much. > ------ > N: No Problem. In Dh in Cambodia you will see that vipassana ña anas come up > again and again. We also had to listen many times, and still... Of course > the subject is difficult. Very difficult. I will keep listening and asking. Phil p.s Sarah, you gave me some very useful feedback on the kind of topics I mentionned above, and I will be back to it someday. I am still finding less time for this now - but will, surely, one of these days... 52650 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/20/05 4:46:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > We may be talking at cross-purposes here. I thought this discussion was > about using 'meditation' as a translation of 'bhavana', not about > whether 'bhavana' commonly includes meditation as part of its meaning. > =================== But your reason for saying that it is an incorrect translation I understood to be that "... no-one has been able to point to anything in the original Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'." Now, if that was not your reason, I don't know why you mentioned it, but, in any case, if that indeed was not your reason, then I withdraw my "objection". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52651 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation lbidd2 Tep re. what is concentration?: "Can you answer that question yourself, Larry?" Hi Tep, I've already answered and so has the Buddha in this sutta. I wanted to see if Joop understood. It's a test question. Why don't you answer? Larry 52652 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:44pm Subject: Vism.XIV,200 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 200. (b) 'According to individual essence': painful feeling is 'gross' compared with the others because it is without enjoyment, it involves intervention, causes disturbance, creates anxiety, and is overpowering. The other two are subtle compared with painful feeling because they are satisfying, peaceful, and superior, and respectively agreeable and neutral. Both the pleasant and the painful are gross compared with the neither-painful-nor-pleasant because they involve intervention, cause disturbance and are obvious. The latter is subtle in the way aforesaid compared with both the former. Thus should grossness and subtlety be understood according to individual essence. *************************** 200. sabhaavavasena pana dukkhaa vedanaa nirassaadato, savipphaarato, khobhakara.nato, ubbejaniiyato, abhibhavanato ca itaraahi dviihi o.laarikaa, itaraa pana dve saatato, santato, pa.niitato, manaapato, majjhattato ca yathaayoga.m dukkhaaya sukhumaa. ubho pana sukhadukkhaa savipphaarato, khobhakara.nato, paaka.tato ca adukkhamasukhaaya o.laarikaa, saa vuttavipariyaayena tadubhayato sukhumaa. eva.m sabhaavavasena o.laarikasukhumataa veditabbaa. 52653 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,200 philofillet Hi all Thanks for posting these passages, Larry > 200. (b) 'According to individual essence': painful feeling is 'gross' > compared with the others because it is without enjoyment, it involves > intervention, causes disturbance, creates anxiety, and is overpowering. This morning I read the sutta (SN 36:6) about the two darts. As soon as there is painful feeling, the mind leaps to aversion. And then because worldlings know no other escape from painful experiences than seeking pleasant experiences, the tendecy to lust is present. And because there is ignorance to the conditioned nature of feelings, the tendency to ignorance is also present. So from a single painful feeling we can see how all three unwholesome roots are accumulated. I find these kind of suttas (there are many of them) very sobering. They point at how quickly akusala proliferates from a single sensory experience. It is easy to understand why people think that reducing sensory impression is the only way to make progress toward liberation. I must admit I feel that way sometimes. If I could be a monk, live apart from the world, with more control over and reduction of sensory experience, how much easier it would be to begin to slow down the inferno of lobha, dosa and moha that is burning through the eye, ear etc... But there can be moments of understanding wherever we are, whatever we are doing, whatever we are experiencing, no matter how painful or pleasant or neither painful-nor-pleasant it is. (Well, maybe the latter is beyond our direct understanding.) Phil 52654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ?/ Mount Sumeru buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thank you for the sincere answer, I appreciate it. > Jon: > My comments were limited to the excerpts you had quoted. I did not >read the whole passages (I am not a fast reader ;-)). > Warm regards, Tep ======= 52655 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:09pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - This reply of yours is very friendly and I truly enjoy reading it. >Jon: ;-)), ;-)) I'm afraid I'm a sad case and it may take more than Howard's lesson on semantics to do the trick. Tep: I am sorry for using the word 'lesson' (as Howard already corrected me). No, you didn't need any lesson ! May I take it back? ................. >Jon: >Seriously though, as I said to Howard, the question is not what 'bhavana' includes, but whether it should be *equated with* the English term 'meditation'. If we could keep this narrow issue, it may help us reach some agreement. Tep: I have no problem accepting the "narrow issue", Jon. True, literally bhavana is not identical to meditation. Period. ......................... >Jon: >Tep, while on this general subject, your posts of late have been very cheery (despite the usual provocative content of my posts ;-)), which I have much appreciated. As it can't be the India effect in your case, is there some other cause you can identify for the positive change? ;-)) ? Tep: Probably the India "effect" in my case was because I saw you and Sarah in the Sukin's photo album, and I felt so friendly toward that couple. {:>)) Now, to be a little more serious: regardless of our different views/interpretations/beliefs that sometimes led to unnecessary debates, we are just two good Buddhists discussing the Buddha's Dhamma (or some related issues) in order to learn more. So there is no good reason for me to take it too seriously. I am sorry that I did not think like this in the past. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > Earlier you said: > "One quality in your posts I always admire is your coolness -- listening and responding with no emotion. ...". > > Well, it's not that the emotion doesn't arise, but I try to keep my > replies on the list as 'matter of fact' as possible, for obvious > reasons. But (as we often say here) there is more akusala than kusala, and so there are times when the akusala manifests in my posts, by making comments that are not a necessary part of my reply and would better be left unsaid, as I think has happened recently. I hope these indiscretions can be overlooked by others. > (snipped) 52656 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Dear Larry - Thank you for responding to my question. > > >Tep re. what is concentration?: "Can you answer that question > >yourself, Larry?" > > Larry: > > I've already answered and so has the Buddha in this sutta. I wanted to > see if Joop understood. It's a test question. Why don't you answer? > Sorry, I did not go upthread to the original message. If you already answered it, then I withdraw my question! Thank you anyway. Peace, Tep ====== 52657 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:41pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 313- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [g] philofillet Hi all > When there is stinginess there is a cramped state of mind, one > cannot stretch out one's hand in order to give a gift. I appreciated hearing in "Perfections" how it is the cetasika virya that can arise (when kusala) to support the generous citta. It's very stirring to hear how various kusala cetasikas can arise together to support kusala and condition good deeds. Today is my worst day of the week, going to a school with students who always seem dull and sleepy (maybe because it is Monday) and I often tell myself to preserve my energy, not to waste it on them when I need it to try to dig myself out of the hole we (Naomi and I) are in, in material terms. And yet there is always something that propels me to give the best lesson possible. It is often akusala, perhaps, concern about keeping a good image at work. But I feel encouraged that there may also kusala arising at times, propelling me to be generous with my energy though I intend to be a little stingier. The world is burning with greed, hatred and ignorance, but there can be moments of generosity, moments of stinginess subsiding in the face of generosity and wholesome virya arising. Phil 52658 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 315- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [i] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] As regards the five kinds of objects one can be stingy about(1), the Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Part II, Chapter II, 373-375) explains about these five kinds and mentions that there is no stinginess if one does not want to share these things with a person who will use them in the wrong way or with a bhikkhu who will disgrace the Sangha. As regards stinginess about dwelling, the “dwelling” can be a monastery, a single room or any place where one stays, no matter whether it is big or small. We can be stingy with regard to any place where we are comfortable, such as a corner in a room or a seat. As regards stinginess about “family”, this can be a family of servitors to a monastery or one’s relatives. A bhikkhu who is stingy does not want another bhikkhu to approach a family he usually visits, because he does not want to share with someone else the goods he receives. We may be stingy not only with regard to things, but also with regard to words of praise. For example, when we, together with others, have accomplished a work of charity, we may only want to be praised ourselves; we may not want to share honour and praise with others, although they deserve to be praised as well. We should scrutinize ourselves as to this form of stinginess; we should find out whether it is easy for us to praise others. If we understand that praising someone’s virtues is an act of generosity, we will more often remember to do this when the opportunity arises. When we praise someone else there is no room for stinginess. There are many different ways of kusala and in our daily life there are opportunities right at hand for one kind of kusala or other, no matter whether we are alone or with other people. *** 1) Compare also Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §893, for these five kinds of objects. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52659 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Tep & Jon, --- upasaka@... wrote: > PTS: > ____________________ > Bhavana (p. 503) (f.) [fr. bhaveti, or fr. bhava in meaning of bhava 2, > cp. > Class. Sk. bhavana] producing, dwelling on something, putting one's > thoughts > to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation, > cultivation by > mind, culture. -- See on term Dhs trsl 261 (=2 240); Expos. I.217 (=DhsA > 163); > Cpd. 207 n. 2. <-> Cp. pari°, vi°, sam°..... ..... S: I just followed the first references you gave from the PTS extract on bhavana. The Expositor (Pali: Atthasaalinii, comy to the Dhammasa’nganii) gives a detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhavana as used in the Dhammasa’nganii (first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka), under ‘Fourfold Jhana’, ch1. Here’s the relevant extract. [I’ve inserted some of the Pali terms back into the translation for clarity,so there may be errors]: ***** “ ‘Develops’(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. Of these, sambhaavanaa means religious confidence, thus: ‘In my Order, Udaayi,my disciples believe in the higher eithics (adhisiile), knowing that the recluse Gotama is virtuous (siilavaa) and is endowed with the higher ethics.’ (MN ii 9). ‘Concentration perfected by virtue is of much fruit(siilaparibhaavito samaadhimahapphalo), of great advantage(mahaanisa.mso); understanding perfected by concentration is of much fruit (samaadhiparibhaavitaa pa~n~naa mahapphalaa), of great advantage; the mind perfected by understanding (pa~n~naaparibhaavita.m citta.m) is well freed from the Intoxicants (sammadeva aasavehi vimuccatii)’ (DN ii 81) – here paribhaavanaa means perfecting. Vibhaavanaa means disappearance in: ‘cause matter (ruupa.m), cause feeling (vedana.m), perception (sa~n~na.m), activities (sa’nkhaare), consciousness(vi~n~naa.na.m) to disappear (vibhaavehi).’ Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing (uppaadanava.d.dhana.t.thena), eg:-‘Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro satipa.t.thaane)’ (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. Hence it has been said that bhaaveti means to beget (janeti), produce (uppaadeti), increase (va.d.dhetii).” ***** Hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ======= 52660 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I’ve had no problem with most of your comments on this thread.....there may have been some misunderstanding about the meaning of words such as ‘fruit’ of the arahant’s actions. A few more comments- --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > Yes, he is free of rebirth - in fact there is no sense any longer > of a > currently existing being. ... S: Not even for a sotapanna ... H:>But that isn't what it means for kamma to be > inoperative. In an arahant cetana still arises, and the actions > following it serve > as conditions for other phenomena. The question is what does it mean for > that > cetana to be "inoperative". > ------------------------------------ S: No kamma, no results of kamma or further dhammas conditioned by that kamma, no accumulation of kamma. Again, it is not referring to conascent cetana which arises with every citta, conditioning accompanying states and so on, but specifically to the second function of cetana arising in the javana process accompanying kusala and akusala cittas which can accumulate and produce good and bad results. When you say that the actions (performed with kiriya cittas) serve as ‘conditions for other phenomena’, this is true, but not by way of kamma condition. .... > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Using the terminology doesn't explain it, I'm afraid. The > Buddha's > actions all had consequences. What does it mean to say they bore no > "fruit"? > Their "bearing no fruit" has to have specific meaning. I conjectured > that it means > that there was no consequent morally positive or negative impact within > the > arahant's mindstream. Am I wrong? If yes, then what is right? > ------------------------------------- S: Correct – and as a result, no further fruit or results from new‘morally positive or negative’ mind states. .... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would assume that the actions of an arahant on others is always > "to > the good". > But, in any case, I was referring only to the matter of exactly what it > means > for volition to be "inoperative". > --------------------------------------- S: The results of the actions of an arahant on others will depend on their own vipaka and accumulations. For example, for some people like Devadatta, the sight of arahants and even the Buddha was a condition for the worst kind of akusala kamma-patha to be performed. As we know, conditions are very complicated. Someone may hear kind and gentle words and become angry or jealous. Another may hear angry words and they may be a condition for great compassion. ..... . > ------------------------------------------- > >S: However, the kiriya (inoperative) cittas of the arahant which replace > > kusala (wholesome) cittas in the javana process of the arahant are not > > ‘kamma’ because they do not act as asynchronous kamma condition > which > > means as you say, that they cannot produce vipaka (fruit) of any kind. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sarah, this seems like an answer but isn't. The mental actions of > an > arahant do have loads of consequences, which are "fruit". ... S: OK – in an indirect sense. We are able to appreciate the Dhamma because of the Buddha’s compassion. However, without the results (fruit) of our kamma, there’d be no seeing or hearing and without the right accumulations of being able to reflect and consider and appreciate the truths, the Dhamma would have no consequence. .... H:>Looking at an > arahant > acting and seeing results follow from that acting appears no different > from > observing a worldling in action. The Buddha engaged in continual > volitional > activity of all sorts, and these activities had consequences as do the > activities > of worldlings. There must be a very specific sense in which the Buddha's > > mindstates were inoperative, but I haven't seen that sense explained > yet. > ------------------------------------------- S: I hope it’s clear now. I agree with your other comments here. .... > >S: Here’s a brief quote from the Abhidamattha Sangaha (Narada transl): > > > > "17. Kiriya or Kriya, literally, means action. > > Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action. Kamma is > causally > > effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective. Good deeds of Buddhas and > > Arahats are called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as > they > > have gone beyond both good and evil. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > The second and third of these sentences give no solution. The > last > sentence seem to accord with what I was guessing. ... S: Yes .... > ----------------------------------------- > > > In Abhidhamma vipaka and kiriya are collectively called avyakata > > (Indeterminate), that which does not manifest itself in the way of an > > effect. The former is avyakata, because it is an effect in itself, the > > latter, because it does not produce an effect." > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > But the Buddha's actions all had effects. .... S: Usually by ‘fruit’ or ‘effect’, results of kamma are being referred to. For example, phala cittas (fruition consciousness) are the results of magga cittas (path consciousness). From Nina’s recent elaboration on the Vism and its commentary: “As to feeling that is kiriya, inoperative, kiriya is a dhamma that does not produce result. The dhamma that produces result is coarse, it is as it were pregnant (sagabbha). Kamma is also compared to a womb that will produce fruit.” .... > ------------------------------------------ > > > ..... > > Hope this clarifies anything I said before. > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The only clarification that I have seen is the slightly vague > last > sentence you quoted from the Abh. Sangaha: "Good deeds of Buddhas and > Arahats are > called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as they have gone > > beyond both good and evil." But on the basis of that I don't understand > what you > found deficient in my guessing "inoperative kamma" to be about. > -------------------------------------------- S: I’m not sure I did find anything ‘deficient’ in it. You wrote before: ‘It is the matter of the ‘non-kammic’ nature of the fruit of the functional actions of an arahant that I am asking about’. In my clumsy way, I was trying to clarify this and a couple of other points (#52493). I apologise if I missed your point. Let me know if there’s anything I’ve still missed and I (or others) can try again:-). Metta, Sarah ===== 52661 From: connieparker@intergate.com Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:50pm Subject: RE: 2 types of DO nichiconn dear Charles, -----Original Message----- Twelve Links: The Two Aspects of Interdependent Co-Arising When Conditioned by the "True Mind" and the "Deluded Mind." The Links within True Mind: Clear Understanding -- Great Aspiration -- Four Wisdoms -- Transformation body -- Result Body -- Mindfulness of contact -- Mindfulness of Feeling -- Four Immeasurable Minds -- Freedom -- Wondrous Being -- Wisdom of No-Birth -- Wisdom of No-Death -- Clear Understanding. The Links within a Deluded Mind: Ignorance -- Volition Action -- Consciousness -- Mind/Body -- 6 Sense organs & their Objects -- Contact -- Feeling -- Craving -- Grasping -- Coming to Be -- Birth -- Old age & Death -- Ignorance. I don't remember where I found this but I think it is Mahayana. I have another version based on the Forest monk tradition of Thailand. I will post it later (I have to find it first). ------ Yes, I'm sure these transformation and result bodies would be mahayana. Something I wrote another friend recently: Potential purity? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024-tb0.html (Ratha-vinita / Relay Chariots - Stages of purity) footnote: 2. Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Punna speak of this list of seven purities - purity in terms of virtue, mind, view, the overcoming of perplexity, knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path, knowledge & vision of the way, and knowledge & vision - as if it were a teaching familiar to both of them, and yet nowhere else is it mentioned as a Buddhist teaching in the discourses. The Atthaka Vagga (Sn IV), however, mentions various non-Buddhist sectarians who spoke of purity as the goal of their teaching and who variously defined that purity in terms of virtue, view, knowledge, & practice. Perhaps the seven types of purity listed in this discourse were originally non-Buddhist teachings that were adopted by the early Buddhist community and adapted to their own purpose for showing that these seven forms of purity functioned not as a goal of practice but as stages along the path to that goal. At any rate, this list of the seven purities formed the framework for Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purity), the cornerstone of his Pali commentaries, in which the seven purities cover all three parts of the threefold training in virtue, concentration, & discernment. sutta: "In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." purely to coming unDOne, then. personally, i am inclined to dismiss mahayana flavored posts. peace, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------- 52662 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 0:02am Subject: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) sarahprocter... Hi Nina (Tep & all), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Now, I am doing a little cross reference of animitta, this because of my > exchanges with Matheesha. Many texts really. I would very much like to > have > your post on the 12 animitta dhammas. ... S: 14 animita dhammas. I didn't write about them before, but it came up in some very detailed discussions on nimitta, adhivacana dhammas, pannatti, nirutti etc as I mentioned before. Eventually we'll get round to editing and making these available too. We discussed how there are nimitta without words even now, following the visible objects and so on. As long as there is sanna, it conditions thinking of nimitta. Because of sanna now, we know who's who, as it recognises the nimitta. So there are nimitta about or of everything appearing through all the doors - nimitta of realities and nimitta of ideas. I think it was Num who referred to the Samyutta Nikaya commentary and some difficult questions addressed to Citta the householder. The 14 animitta dhammas as I recall are: 1 nibbana 4 magga and 4 phala cittas 4 arupa jhana cittas (away from nimitta of rupa) 1 vipassana/insight (direct experience of impermanence) I've found more details on vipassana as animitta in 'The Path of Discrimination V, 95': "What is the signless (animitta) liberation? Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence is the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign as impermanent......Knowledge of contemplation of signlessness is the signless liberation since it liberates from all signs. Knowledge of contemplation of desirelessness is the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign as desire. Knowledge of contemplatiion of voidness is the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign as misinterpreting.....etc" ***** Of course, when there's seeing or hearing, for example, there's no nimitta, so the '14' doesn't mean that there is nimitta being experienced with all other cittas. I hope this helps. You may like to also look at the other references in 'The Path of Discrimination' under 'animitta'. Metta, Sarah ========== 52663 From: "smallchap" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada smallchap --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: N: (in a rhetorical question) to smallchap: are we attached to our home, nice > food, etc. Meaning: we all are of course, it is quite natural, but we can > realize the truth. ----------------- S: I sincerely apologise for misunderstood your earlier post. smallchap 52664 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) sarahprocter... Hi Nina (Tep & all) A little more: --- sarah abbott wrote: > The 14 animitta dhammas as I recall are: > > 1 nibbana > 4 magga and 4 phala cittas > 4 arupa jhana cittas (away from nimitta of rupa) > 1 vipassana/insight (direct experience of impermanence) .... I just found this reference in MN 43, 37 (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "Lust is a maker of signs, hate is a maker of signs, delusion is a maker of signs.* In a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Of all the kinds of signless deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best.** Now that unshakeable deliverance of mind is void of lust, void of hate, void of delusion. This is the way in which these states are one in meaning and different only in name***." ..... *note: MA interprets the phrase 'maker of signs' (nimitta-kara.na) to mean that lust, hate, and delusion brand a person a worldling or a noble one, as lustful, hating, or deluded.... **note: MA There are thirteen signless deliverances of mind: insight, because it removes the signs of permanence, pleasure, and self; the four immaterial attainments, because they lack the sign of material form; and the four paths and fruits, because of the absence of the sign of defilements. ***note: ...MA also points out that the four deliverances are one in meaning because the terms - the immeasurable, nothingness, voidness, and the signless - are all names for Nibbaana, which is the object of the fruition attainment of arahantship. Metta, Sarah ========= 52665 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn Dear Larry, Tep Larry, thanks for your reaction; for a big part I misunderstood your earlier message. One point: Larry: "So the real question is what is concentration?" Joop: Not a new question for DSG. I read something between Jon and Tep if 'bhavana' means meditation or development? A better question is: What is the difference between 'concentration' and 'contemplation'; I think this Sutta is primarely about contemplation. Till now I have not found a good definition so I made one myself: "contemplation": a kind of slow discursive thinking about a text or thought, again and again: concentrating but not on one point (in fact the definition of 'concentration') but on the text in all its facets, in deeper and deeper layers of its meaning. The best is to contemplate oneself; but reading contemplations of wise persons can be inspiring too. The most beautiful example to me are those of Ve. Nyanaponika on the Four Brahmaviharas. Im' to old to do tests; and Tep, is this disagreement? Your humor must be very good because it surprised me. "SN XXXV.85 is indeed the sutta that is "all" a Buddhist meditator needs to know about emptiness. Once you see emptiness of self (anatta) in all dhamma you'll see Nibbana." Joop: That's fine but my question was: isn't anicca also important? Why always anatta, anatta, anatta and so little anicca in DSG? Metta Joop 52666 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada jwromeijn Dear Nina Thanks for your messages, its agreements and its disagreements with me. Especially I liked your remark on my question about devotion in Buddhism, for example bowing for a Buddha staue: N: "According to Abhidhamma; it all depends with what kind of citta one bows. It can be with saddha, confidence." I will keep this in mind. Metta Joop 52667 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: 2 types of DO jwromeijn Hallo Charles It's not clear what your question is, but I know two other treatments of DO: 1 Transcendental Dependent Arising A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi The Wheel Publication No. 277/278 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html 2 Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination By Buddhadasa Bhikkhu http://www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/ Metta Joop 52668 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 313- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [g] mr39515 Dear Phil... Hi there... the world is such that "there is always more poor people than rich people". But I would like to look at it in this way that if I am richer, it would be A shameful act NOT to give or help to the poor. We live in the world full of opportunities to do kusala deeds as there will always be more poor than the rich. We do not need to chase or look for opportunities but opportunity will come to us. And when opportunity do come, we should at least investigate and give accordingly. No matter how big or how small, dana is still dana but the bigger the better. In Abhidhamma sense, there is no self, just dana cetasika. And it arises by itself (non-self) if the conditions is right. It is like a pot filling with flow of water and when the pot is full with the right conditions, it will overflow. All we can do is condition it to have smaller pot for beautiful cetasika and larger pots for Akusala cetasika. And talking about effords or energy, there is always Right Efford based on the 8 fold path to guide us: 1. Prevent the unarisen unskillful mental states 2. Eradicate the arisen unskillful mental states 3. Develop unarise skillful mental stages 4. Maintain the arisen skillful mental stages It can be carried out anywhere and time even on monday. Monday will always be there... in fact it is a very hard day for most of us lay people. But I do like monday as I have Abhidhamma class tonight and after monday things will move faster as tuesday, wednesday, thursday and friday actually flies very fast... hahaha Just my thoughts. Metta mr39515. --- Phil wrote: > > Hi all > > > When there is stinginess there is a cramped state > of mind, one > > cannot stretch out one's hand in order to give a > gift. > > I appreciated hearing in "Perfections" how it is > the cetasika > virya that can arise (when kusala) to support the > generous citta. > It's very stirring to hear how various kusala > cetasikas can arise > together to support kusala and condition good deeds. > > > Today is my worst day of the week, going to a > school with students > who always seem dull and sleepy (maybe because it is > Monday) and I > often tell myself to preserve my energy, not to > waste it on them > when I need it to try to dig myself out of the hole > we (Naomi and I) > are in, in material terms. And yet there is always > something that > propels me to give the best lesson possible. It is > often akusala, > perhaps, concern about keeping a good image at work. > But I feel > encouraged that there may also kusala arising at > times, propelling > me to be generous with my energy though I intend to > be a little > stingier. > > The world is burning with greed, hatred and > ignorance, but there > can be moments of generosity, moments of stinginess > subsiding in the > face of generosity and wholesome virya arising. > > > Phil > 52669 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 0:39am Subject: The Very Good Kalyanamitta... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Good and Beautiful Friend (Kalyanamitta): The friend who is a helpmate, the friend in happiness and woe, the friend who gives good counsel, the friend who sympathizes too -- these four as friends the wise behold and cherish them devotedly as does a mother her own child. Digha Nikaya 31 Who is hospitable, and friendly, Tolerant, generous and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such a one to honour may attain. Digha Nikaya 31 One is not wise just because one speaks much. He who is peaceable, friendly & fearless is called wise. Dhammapada 258 If you find a wise and clever friend who leads a good and pure life, you should, overcoming all obstacles, keep his company joyously and aware. Dhammapada 328 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 52670 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Tep & Jon) - In a message dated 11/21/05 1:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > The Expositor (Pali: Atthasaalinii, comy to the Dhammasa’nganii) gives a > detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhavana as used in the > Dhammasa’nganii (first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka), under ‘Fourfold > Jhana’, ch1. > > Here’s the relevant extract. [I’ve inserted some of the Pali terms back > into the translation for clarity,so there may be errors]: > ***** > “ ‘Develops’(bhaavetii) means to beget, produce, increase (janeti, > uppaadeti, va.d.dheti). This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here. Elsewhere > the meaning is different according to the preposition, as sambhaavanaa, > paribhaavanaa, vibhaavanaa. > > Of these, sambhaavanaa means religious confidence, thus: ‘In my Order, > Udaayi,my disciples believe in the higher eithics (adhisiile), knowing > that the recluse Gotama is virtuous (siilavaa) and is endowed with the > higher ethics.’ (MN ii 9). > > ‘Concentration perfected by virtue is of much fruit(siilaparibhaavito > samaadhimahapphalo), of great advantage(mahaanisa.mso); understanding > perfected by concentration is of much fruit (samaadhiparibhaavitaa > pa~n~naa mahapphalaa), of great advantage; the mind perfected by > understanding (pa~n~naaparibhaavita.m citta.m) is well freed from the > Intoxicants (sammadeva aasavehi vimuccatii)’ (DN ii 81) – here > paribhaavanaa means perfecting. > > Vibhaavanaa means disappearance in: ‘cause matter (ruupa.m), cause feeling > (vedana.m), perception (sa~n~na.m), activities (sa’nkhaare), > consciousness(vi~n~naa.na.m) to disappear (vibhaavehi).’ > > Again bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing > (uppaadanava.d.dhana.t.thena), eg:-‘Udaayi, I have preached to the > disciples the practice (pa.tipadaa) according to which they develop > (bhaaventii) the four applications in mindfulness (cattaaro > satipa.t.thaane)’ (MN ii 11). And such is its meaning here also. > > Hence it has been said that bhaaveti means to beget (janeti), produce > (uppaadeti), increase (va.d.dhetii).â€? > ***** > > Hope this helps. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: It doesn't hurt! :-) --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= Thanks, Sarah. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 52671 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: Directed and .... A Disservice ? Thanks to Sarah buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Howard and Jon) - I am impressed by your quality research on 'bhavana'. The"relevant extract" is indeed very relevant. It feels like a bucket of cold water on my head on a hot summer day. Yes, it is refreshing. From now I must pay more attention to the 'Atthasaalinii'. Your contribution helps me realize that variabilties do exist, and it is not possible to see the whole picture without careful research. Thank you very much. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard, Tep & Jon, > (snipped) > S: I just followed the first references you gave from the PTS extract on > bhavana. > > The Expositor (Pali: Atthasaalinii, comy to the Dhammasa'nganii) gives a detailed elaboration on the meaning of bhavana as used in the > Dhammasa'nganii (first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka), under `Fourfold Jhana', ch1. > > Here's the relevant extract. [I've inserted some of the Pali terms back > into the translation for clarity,so there may be errors]: > ***** (snipped) 52672 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop (and Larry and others) - Thank you for taking my input a little bit less seriously. Joop: > > Im' to old to do tests; and Tep, is this disagreement? > Your humor must be very good because it surprised me. > "SN XXXV.85 is indeed the sutta that is "all" a Buddhist meditator > needs to know about emptiness. Once you see emptiness of self > (anatta) in all dhamma you'll see Nibbana." > Joop: That's fine but my question was: isn't anicca also important? > Why always anatta, anatta, anatta and so little anicca in DSG? > Tep: Well, no one is too old to do tests or answer challenging questions. Lives would be so bland without good challenges once in a while. {:->)) Thanks for sensing my humor (but mywife always says, "Tep, your jokes suck."). Anicca is great and very important for beginners, and as they progress they think 'anatta' more and more -- that's my understanding. I agree with you that we DSG members should not neglect anicca. Regards, Tep ========= 52673 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and its cessation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/21/05 1:51:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I’ve had no problem with most of your comments on this thread.....there > may have been some misunderstanding about the meaning of words such as > ‘fruit’ of the arahant’s actions. > > A few more comments- > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Howard: > > Yes, he is free of rebirth - in fact there is no sense any longer > >of a > >currently existing being. > ... > S: Not even for a sotapanna ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not sure of that, Sarah. For a sotapanna there is not an iota of *belief* in an existent being, but I believe there *is* a sense of such. ----------------------------------------- > ... > H:>But that isn't what it means for kamma to be > >inoperative. In an arahant cetana still arises, and the actions > >following it serve > >as conditions for other phenomena. The question is what does it mean for > >that > >cetana to be "inoperative". > >------------------------------------ > S: No kamma, no results of kamma or further dhammas conditioned by that > kamma, no accumulation of kamma. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: By no kamma, you mean neither wholesome kamma nor the opposite, but there is functional kamma, kamma freed of any sense of me and mine, and freed of any and all clinging. As for there being no dhammas conditioned by kamma, that can only be true if 'conditioned' means "conditioned in some particular manner." An arahant's volitions and actions have consequences and serve as conditions. When an arahant wills moving, other conditionsd allowing, motion of his limbs occurs, i.e., air element that is a mind-conditioned rupa arises. So, still there remains the question of *exactly* what 'inoperative' means as regards the kamma of an arahant. As for no accumulation of kamma, that is similar to the foregoing. What exactly is implied by that phrase? If it means that the mindstream of the arahant is not effected morally in any way, okay, because that mindstream is stainless and invulnerable to stain. ---------------------------------------------- Again, it is not referring to conascent> > cetana which arises with every citta, conditioning accompanying states and > so on, but specifically to the second function of cetana arising in the > javana process accompanying kusala and akusala cittas which can accumulate > and produce good and bad results. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, the foregoing may hold meaning for you, but it holds none for me. For me it is little more than a sequence of unrelated sounds. If you can translate this into standard English that makes a clear statement, then I might be able to process it and see whether I can glean useful meaning from it, and then decide whether it answers my question. As it stands for me it is as if having read nothing. I mean NO disrespect by this - I'm just speaking truly. ------------------------------------------------- > > When you say that the actions (performed with kiriya cittas) serve as > ‘conditions for other phenomena’, this is true, but not by way of kamma > condition. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, then. so it comes down to what is means for kamma to condition dhammas "by way of kamma condition," and how that differs from other types of conditioning. Can you make that clear? Just using the terminology without indicating its precise meaning provides nothing more than the appearance of explanation. ---------------------------------------------- > .... > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Using the terminology doesn't explain it, I'm afraid. The > >Buddha's > >actions all had consequences. What does it mean to say they bore no > >"fruit"? > >Their "bearing no fruit" has to have specific meaning. I conjectured > >that it means > >that there was no consequent morally positive or negative impact within > >the > >arahant's mindstream. Am I wrong? If yes, then what is right? > >------------------------------------- > S: Correct – and as a result, no further fruit or results from new‘morally > positive or negative’ mind states. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it is a given that the results are not *from* morally positive/negative mindstates. They are the results of neutral states, of kiriyacetana. But what of the results themselves? How does one distinguish the results of kiriyacittas from the results of kusala and akusala states? It still comes down to clarifying what it means for an arahant's kamma to be "inoperative". Exactly what does such kamma *not* produce? In what precise sense is it "inoperative"? ------------------------------------------ > .... > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I would assume that the actions of an arahant on others is always > >"to > >the good". > >But, in any case, I was referring only to the matter of exactly what it > >means > >for volition to be "inoperative". > >--------------------------------------- > S: The results of the actions of an arahant on others will depend on their > own vipaka and accumulations. For example, for some people like Devadatta, > the sight of arahants and even the Buddha was a condition for the worst > kind of akusala kamma-patha to be performed. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. there are multiple conditions involved, always, in the arising of phenomena. That still doesn't indicate in what way an rahant's volition is "inoperative" --------------------------------------------- > As we know, conditions are very complicated. Someone may hear kind and > gentle words and become angry or jealous. Another may hear angry words and > they may be a condition for great compassion. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we know that. :-) ---------------------------------------------- > ..... > . > >------------------------------------------- > >>S: However, the kiriya (inoperative) cittas of the arahant which > replace > >>kusala (wholesome) cittas in the javana process of the arahant are not > >>‘kamma’ because they do not act as asynchronous kamma condition > >which > >>means as you say, that they cannot produce vipaka (fruit) of any kind. > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Sarah, this seems like an answer but isn't. The mental actions of > >an > >arahant do have loads of consequences, which are "fruit". > ... > S: OK – in an indirect sense. We are able to appreciate the Dhamma because > of the Buddha’s compassion. However, without the results (fruit) of our > kamma, there’d be no seeing or hearing and without the right accumulations > of being able to reflect and consider and appreciate the truths, the > Dhamma would have no consequence. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That is not peculiar to kiriyacetana. It is just a matter of multiple conditions being required. ------------------------------------------ > .... > H:>Looking at an > >arahant > >acting and seeing results follow from that acting appears no different > >from > >observing a worldling in action. The Buddha engaged in continual > >volitional > >activity of all sorts, and these activities had consequences as do the > >activities > >of worldlings. There must be a very specific sense in which the Buddha's > > > >mindstates were inoperative, but I haven't seen that sense explained > >yet. > >------------------------------------------- > S: I hope it’s clear now. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm afraid not! ;-)) But, hey, no problem. Maybe just let this matter go, ok? ---------------------------------------------- I agree with your other comments here.> > .... > > >>S: Here’s a brief quote from the Abhidamattha Sangaha (Narada > transl): > >> > >>"17. Kiriya or Kriya, literally, means action. > >>Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action. Kamma is > >causally > >>effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective. Good deeds of Buddhas and > >>Arahats are called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as > >they > >>have gone beyond both good and evil. > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The second and third of these sentences give no solution. The > >last > >sentence seem to accord with what I was guessing. > ... > S: Yes > .... > > >----------------------------------------- > > > >>In Abhidhamma vipaka and kiriya are collectively called avyakata > >>(Indeterminate), that which does not manifest itself in the way of an > >>effect. The former is avyakata, because it is an effect in itself, the > >>latter, because it does not produce an effect." > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > But the Buddha's actions all had effects. > .... > S: Usually by ‘fruit’ or ‘effect’, results of kamma are being referred to. > For example, phala cittas (fruition consciousness) are the results of > magga cittas (path consciousness). > > From Nina’s recent elaboration on the Vism and its commentary: > > “As to feeling that is kiriya, inoperative, kiriya is a dhamma that does > not produce result. The dhamma that produces result is coarse, it is as it > were pregnant (sagabbha). > Kamma is also compared to a womb that will produce fruit.â€? > .... > >------------------------------------------ > > > >>..... > >>Hope this clarifies anything I said before. > > > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The only clarification that I have seen is the slightly vague > >last > >sentence you quoted from the Abh. Sangaha: "Good deeds of Buddhas and > >Arahats are > >called kiriya because kamma is not accumulated by them as they have gone > > > >beyond both good and evil." But on the basis of that I don't understand > >what you > >found deficient in my guessing "inoperative kamma" to be about. > >-------------------------------------------- > S: I’m not sure I did find anything ‘deficient’ in it. You wrote before: > > ‘It is the matter of the ‘non-kammic’ nature of the fruit of the > functional actions of an arahant that I am asking about’. In my clumsy > way, I was trying to clarify this and a couple of other points (#52493). I > apologise if I missed your point. Let me know if there’s anything I’ve > still missed and I (or others) can try again:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 52674 From: "wchangli" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] difficulties from Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8/ Han Tun wchangli Hi, Tep & Dr. han Tun Dr han Tun, Thanks your translation, and Tep, too. Happy to meet both of you here, your are really nice! warmest regards, Li --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Li (Attn. Nina) - > > I have got help from my friend, Dr. han Tun, as shown in his email > below. He always makes Pali translation seems so easy. > > Best wishes, > > > Tep > > ======= > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 01:20:18 -0800 (PST) > From: "han tun" > Subject: Re: I have no clue ! > To: "Tep Sastri" > > Dear Tep, > > I have never translated Pali into English. The Pali words that I had > inserted from time to time were the Pali words written in Burmese > script which I just transcribed them into English. > > Anyway, "tasmim aanaapaane sati, aanaapaanassati; > assaasa passaasa pariggaahi-kaaya satiyaa eta.m > adhivacana.m." is the definition of "aanaapaana-sati." > > The nearest translation would be: "aanapaana-sati is the name of > sati on out-breath and in-breath of the body.' > > I cannot find a satisfactory English word for "pariggaaha". Literally it > means wrapping round, enclosing, taking up, seizing on, acquiring. It > may be logical to say "out-breath and in-breath which are the > vital functions of the body." But it will not give the correct meaning of > "pariggaaha." > > > With metta and deepest respect, > > Han Tun > > ..................................................... > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wchangli" > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, could you help .... > > Nina, thanks your words. > > > > warmest regards, > > Li > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Li, > > > please would you ask one of the Pali experts on the Pali list? > > > Those sentences are not easy. > > > Tep could explain to you about the meaning of the long breath, he > > made studies of this subject. > > > I have the Co. to the Patisambidha in Thai, but now I have great > > lack of time. > > > Nina. > > > op 13-11-2005 14:40 schreef wchangli op wchangli@y...: > > > > > > > I have difficulties to understand the last two sentences as > > stated below: > > > > > > > Niddese pana pakaarassa¡¦eva diighattam ajjhupekkhitvaa, > > aapaanan¡¦ ti vutta.m. > > > > Tasmim aanaapaane sati, AAnaapaanassati; assaasa > passaasa pariggaahikaaya satiyaa eta.m adhivacana.m. > > > > ( from: Pa.tis-a.t.thakathaa, Vol. II, p.467-8) > > > > > > > > > > 52675 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:04am Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) sukinderpal Dear Joop, :-) It got bad, especially on the next day when there was some unavoidable exertion. ----------------------------------- > Sukin: "The Noble Eightfold Path refers to a moment of citta where > all the path factors arise together. There can't be panna without > sati, and the effort, concentration and thought (not the best word > for vitakka cetasika) necessary to perform their respective > functions, must also all be right. > However, because sati and panna arise with only kusala cittas … > Joop: I prefer to discuss the NEP as explained by the Buddha in the > Suttas, for example in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Here the Buddha > uses the metaphore of the Path and a path is something we had to > walk, so being active on it. Maybe that factors arise as a result of > my efforts to do the aspects of the Path. Good examples are "right > resolve", "right speech" and "right action" Sukin in this post: Firstly, we don't know how the word `path' was understood when used amongst people during the Buddha's time. Also I think we should not take too seriously the conventional terms that we use when it comes to attempting to understand Dhamma, especially when we know that these are translated from a language no one can be familiar enough with today. I personally see words, in whatever language, including Pali, as being only pointers to Truths. The point is to try our best to grasp the meaning, keeping in mind that ultimately it is precise Dhammas that need to be understood. So the process should be such that the words evolve in meaning to fit any increased understanding of Dhamma, rather than interpreting the Dhamma to fit our present understanding of the conventional meaning. Take the example of the word `practice', patipatti. Our conventional everyday use of the word is in reference to a `self' who does things, typing, swimming, playing the piano and so forth. In any of these activities we can afford to be very vague and still come to agree upon what it means. I could type with a generally distracted mind and take 5 years to reach a level of expertise that another person with good concentration did in 2 weeks. Still we would both have `practiced'. In Dhamma we can't afford to be vague, which is in the nature of conventional realities. In Dhamma, patipatti refer to moments when citta with sati and panna have a characteristic of an `ultimate reality' as object. So one can say then, that during other moments when the citta with sati and panna does not arise to experience a reality, then that would not be practice. Should we then insist on the conventional activity, meditation as constituting practice? If not, should we follow the particular idea, i.e. `to meditate'? Wouldn't doing so in fact be encouraging of "wrong" practice? And does it not then result in mistaking that which is not sati to be sati as in the `noting' and being `mindful of whatever is going on'? Illusions of result are great, after all there *is* a change of perspective and this comes with pleasant feelings. And we can indeed align any theory with our experience. A hired gunman will be mindful of all his activities and have his own theories to justify and explain them; the Buddhist meditator will have his own. But to me, the common between the two is the "desire to be aware". And it requires hearing the correct interpretation of Dhamma, some panna and a good dose of sacca parami to see through this, or as in my case, the good kamma to be amongst wise friends. ;-) Now back to NEP. So when Sariputta and Bahiya heard just the short phrases that they did and were enlightened instantly, I think it more realistic to think that the Path "arose" in them for an instant. Besides the NEP being one of the 4NT, could not be referring to a series of conventional actions, could it? What would be so Noble about this? Noble is so by virtue of them being Truths experienced by Noble Ones. If anything, that which makes up the `path' in the conventional sense and as you seem to understand it, this must be nothing other than "satipatthana" from start to finish. Right speech, right action and right livelihood, even if you want to take these conventionally, must involve satipatthana mustn't it? How meaningful is it to identify something as right livelihood or right speech if it does not involve sati and panna? And given that cittas rise and fall so fast with changing objects, what should we call Right Livelihood or Right Speech if not single instances of these cittas? Would akusala cetasikas that arise while we are involved in some conventional Right Action count as path factor? It makes more sense to me to see the NEP as constituting a moment of citta. And that 5 or six of these arise during mundane moments of satipatthana. I can't see much sense in interpreting the different factors of the NEP as separate actions to take; in fact this seems to encourage `self view" to some extent. Regarding interpretation of Suttas, I can't do it on my own but rely on commentaries and sub commentaries by K.Sujin, Nina and others. The impression I have got so far from reading them is that their interpretation of the Suttas is in perfect harmony with their understanding of the Abhidhamma. I guess it is because the Suttas are in conventional language about conventional people and situations, that different people can approach it and go away with their own interpretations, reflecting not so much the intended meaning, but their own underlying views. This is why I am often led to the conclusion that those who disagree with the Abhidhamma and commentaries and insist on believing only the Suttas, are in fact saying that they disagree with a particular interpretation of the Dhamma. And this is no different from say, Tibetan and Zen following their own interpretations of the Buddha's Teachings. But who in the end is right? To me of course, it is the K.Sujin interpretation. ;-) --------------------------------------------- > Sukin: "What do you think, can akusala result in the development of > kusala and can self view lead to right view?" > Joop: We call this a 'retoric question', the answer can only be 'no'. > But 'self view' is not something that bothers me: the anatta-doctrine > is so evident to me > In fact I think 'no self' is an obsession for many DSG-members; to me > it is so evident that there is no need spending much time to it. Sukin in this post: At this level of understanding, I think I can never have enough reminding. Obviously, even the gross manifestations arise quite often; let alone the more subtle ones. But is `no self' an obsession here on DSG? I think it is mostly in reaction to statements by some members who seem to agree in theory about it, but then when it comes to ideas of practice, the theory don't seem to have any effect. But of course this to me, is because the understanding at the theoretical level was not firm enough in the first place. Hence the reminder to never underestimate pariyatti, and to not go about following one's own idea about `practice'. It is possible that your understanding of anatta is much better than my own, but until we have reached the first stage of enlightenment, don't you think it beneficial to be reminded no matter how often? ----------------------------------------------- Joop: > The NEP brings me to the topic of 'formal meditation'. > Two aspects are "right mindfulness" which to me is combination of > vipassana-meditation plus being mindful in daily life; and "right > concentration" which is to me samatha meditation. > Do you have any quote from the Suttas that this a wrong > interpretation? Sukin in this post: No I can't quote. But I hope what I have written above gives you some idea about my understanding. In the end we all use the same Suttas to prove the other wrong, so it comes down to interpretation. And as you say: "(And I think the quotes from Teachings of the Buddha are sometimes an argument but many times a subjective interpretating opinion)" I wish sometimes that some of DSG folks would express their understanding more clearly in their own words. I know that they don't do it intentionally, but what often happens is that Suttas are brought up where the context is quite different from the original points being discussed, and then one has to wade through so many obstacles before then coming to a conclusion, and which often is to agree to disagree. And again there is always the problem of interpretation to go through. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > Joop: DSG is the best place to discuss the use or not-use of > vipassana-meditation. I will even tell more about my practice and my > need to combine it with other aspects of the NEP. But not in the way > you 'propose' in which there are two groups: the pro's and the contra's. Sukin in this post: It doesn't have to be. In fact it has been my impression time and again, that those I group as `meditators" have more than a few differences when it comes down to interpreting the Texts. ;-) Even on the fact of `formal meditation', there are major differences in opinion and I suspect (perhaps wrongly) that many would avoid discussing these for fear of their view being exposed and put to the test. On the other hand, the correct interpretation of the Dhamma should condition agreement amongst those who hold them by virtue of the Dhamma being true and right and One, don't you think? And do you see some hint of this in the other camp……;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ Joop: > Of course, doing only vipassana-meditation is not enough, but ity is > an important aspect. > (And that some people say 'vipassana' when they mean '(formal) > vipassana meditation' is only a linguistic problem. 'Formal' is a > term I don't like but means to me: "There is the case where a monk -- > having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty > building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body > erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the > chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out."; > you will recognize the source. Sukin in this post: This is one example of `interpretation' and the difference is really vast. On the one hand is seeing such statements by the Buddha, "There is the case where a monk –" as being "descriptive" of a monks natural daily life activity. Hence the Buddha's Teaching that follow, as being one that allow him to view this from the standpoint of Satipatthana. On the other hand, there is the interpretation of this as being "prescriptive" of what a monk `should' do, i.e. conventional activity of "going to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise….". Now you tell me, which one makes more sense? I think one difference lies in the understanding that this moment is the only reality we need to know, and that in the past or in the future, no matter where, we have to come back to this same understanding about this present moment. Otherwise no matter where we are, the root of a tree, a meditation retreat or wherever, we will end up in fact only dealing with our personal projections. Further, it seems to me that it is precisely because of this lack of confidence that the mind then proliferates into "methods" and ideas about "samatha-vipassana" and so on practices! > Sukin: "Anicca after all is a characteristic of a reality, nama or > rupa. So such a mind that understands anicca must also have > understood nama as nama and rupa as rupa and therefore will not > overlook the importance of first understanding these. " > Joop: Of course, but I refuse to think that distinguishing nama from > rupa is very difficult! Sukin in this post: It is possible that you grasp this distinction more easily than most. My own understanding is extremely blurry and even conceptually I have great difficulty. It seems to me however, that all wrong view arises in part because of the lack of understanding of this distinction. The mind proliferates into false theories about reality precisely because there is yet not this firm understanding of nama and rupa. We continually get caught in concepts of self and other and the wrong which are then conditioned to arise. Time to go to sleep now. Metta, Sukin. 52676 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Anicca is great and very important for beginners, and as they progress they think 'anatta' more and more -- that's my understanding. > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > Hallo Tep I hope to be a beginner the rest of my life, as I always have been Metta Joop 52677 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:40am Subject: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) matheesha333 Hi Sarah, Nina, 'Friend, based on how many factors is the release of mind in signlessness? The release of mind in signlessness is based on two factors. Not attending to any signs and attending to the no-sign element. Based on these two factors the release of mind in signlessness is attained. On account of what is the duration of the release of mind in signlessness? The duration of the release of mind in signlessness is based on three factors. Not attending to any signs, attending to the no-sign element, and making a determination earlier. Friend, based on these three is the duration of the release of mind in the no-sign element. Friend, how is the rising from the release of mind in the no-sign element? Based on two factors is the rising from the release of mind in the no-sign element: Attending to all signs and not attending to the no-sign element. Based on these two is the rising from the attainment, release of mind in the no-sign element. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/043-mahavedalla-sutta-e1.htm I was going through MN 43 and release of mind in signless sounds like samatha to me again. The pointer here for me is making a determination to wake up, which is possible with mastery of jhana, and also phalasamawatha. The idea that it is phalasamawatha is very interesting. In the abscence of those words in the suttas, it would make sense if this was that same phenomenon. I did read all the animitta dhammas that Sarah had compiled. But it is my habit to rely on the suttas and my own experiences as I believe these are as close to the truth as one can get. Animitta dhammas have been expanded to cover so much in the Co. and that expansion isnt inferable from the suttas IMO and seems to be trying to draw out meaning based on the word, rather than the experience -very analytical. But I guess there is nothing wrong in calling all of it animitta dhammas. metta Matheesha > The 14 animitta dhammas as I recall are: > > > > 1 nibbana > > 4 magga and 4 phala cittas > > 4 arupa jhana cittas (away from nimitta of rupa) > > 1 vipassana/insight (direct experience of impermanence) 52678 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: q. Dhamma in Cambodia, sankharakkhandha. nilovg Hi Azita, yes saññaa is also important. Sati and paññaa are sankharakkhandha and they are accumulated together with the other sobhana cetasikas. I quote from my paramis: < Khun Sujin reminded us that 'sati and panña are sañkhárakkhandha, the khandha of formations¹, which are all the mental factors, cetasikas, except feeling (vedanã) and remembrance (saññã). Akusala (unwholesome)cetasikas and sobhana (beautiful) ceta sikas are included in sañkharakkhandha. The Œformations¹ form up each moment which arises. Sati and pañna which arise now are conditioned by past accumulations of sati, panna and other wholesome qualities. If there can be right mindfulness of a näma or rupa which appears now this moment has been Œformed up¹ by many moments of studying, considering and mindfulness in the past. Each moment is conditioned by many factors and the way these condition it is very intricate. A moment of right mindfulness falls away but the conditions for the arising of mindful-ness later on are accumulated, since each citta which arises and falls away conditions the next citta. Thus panña can develop until it has become supramundane understanding (lokuttara paññã), having nibbana as its object. Each moment which has been formed up by past accumulations is new, it cannnot be the same as past moments, it does not come into being by simply adding up all the past moments. Lokuttara panna is a completely new situation, but it is conditioned by many different factors of the past, by many moments of studying, of considering, of developing understanding of nama and rupa, and also of developing all the perfections. All the different wholesome qualities support one another and together they form up the conditions for the fully developed panna. If we understand, at least in theory, that right understanding is sankhârakkhandha, formed up by many factors, and that it forms up later moments of understanding, it will help us to see that panna grows very gradually in the course of many lives. It will prevent us from clinging to an idea that we can direct the growth of parina, that we have to do something special in order to hasten its development. If we remember that pannA is sankkharakkhandha, the khandha of formations, we will be more patient while we study with mindfulness the realities which appear. > Kh Sujin used the simile of a cake: many ingredients are necessary for its preparation. There is no simple adding up of all the ingredients. BTW, what was your sutta of the seven times eleven, in grad. S? I lost it. A good idea to have a sutta next time and even here on this forum. Good to discuss difficult ones. Did you see Perfections for audio I posted? Nina. op 21-11-2005 00:14 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > >> Everything we learn from the beginning is >> accumulated as the khandha of formations, sankhårakkhandha, and > this is a >> condition for the growth of pañña. > azita: why only sankharakkhandha, and not sannakhandha as well. > Isn't 'remembering' an important aspect of this accumulation? 52679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. . nilovg Hi Tep, op 18-11-2005 04:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > >> N: We can check this ourselves by clenching the teeth and putting the > tongue agains the palate. What appears? What types of cittas? It is the > citta that matters. It may be akusala citta with attachment to the idea of > wanting to be a good person, or kusala cittas with awareness. > > Tep: It might be so for a person who has not understood the Teachings > well enough. I think I see it differently. Let's say: now I am having trouble > with a strong kama-vitakka that refuses to subside, even after my > having tried all the four steps in MN 20. > And so on .... Then the fourth step ["attend to the relaxing of thought- > fabrication with regard to those thoughts"] has failed as well. So now I > have no choice but to remain firm, not yielding to the akusala vitakka. -------- N: I am not inclined to thinking of steps to be taken in order. One person will find this way helpful another finds that way helpful, depending on the individual. There are many opportunities, helpful suggestions here. It depends on the conditioning factors that propell citta here or there. But it should be understood that whatever one does, it is not self that is taking the action. We can say rhis, repeat this, but realizing the truth is hard, I find. ------------ T: However, I do not see any "akusala citta with attachment to the idea of > wanting to be a good person", only a concentrated effort for "the sake > of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen" as stated > in DN 22 (samma-vayamo). ------- N: Clinging to self is so deeprooted, it is difficult to see. Kusala citta is alternated with akusala citta all the time. More often akusala citta than kusala citta. --------- T: It is a pure and simple fact, there is work to > do and no time to think about "there are not my teeth, my palate, no self > who presses the teeth" as suggested. It is too analytical -- in reality I > only focus all attention to fight with the "evil thoughts". > ........................ N: Only paññaa can conquer akusala. See many, many suttas: by thoroughly understanding akusala it can be eradicated. We do not have to think this is not my palate, no, there can be direct awareness of hardness or pressure, no thinking. This awareness can stem from listening to satipatthana and understanding of what can be the object of awareness: one nama or rupa at a time, no concepts such as teeth or palate. ------- >> N: When the bhikkhu is discouraged about his unwholesome thoughts > he can be inspired when he thinks of the excellent qualities of the > Buddha. These thoughts will cause him to be full of enthusiasm and > they will strengthen his confidence and dedication to the Master. > > Tep: Now, that is very helpful ! I think we may call such Buddhanusati > a "direct meditation" as described in SN XLVII.10: Bhikkhunupassaya > Sutta. . 'Direct meditation' is directing the citta to a kusala > nimitta. ------- N: Conditions again. There are some meditation subjects suitable for all occasions (sabbhattha). Among them Buddhanussati, metta, foulness of the body, mindfulness of death. Metta when we meet or think of others; foulness: we carry it around, it is with us; mindfulness of death: are we not confronted with death also around us? > .................... Now the suttas. They show the close connection of subjects such as asubha with satipatthana. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch VI, § 6, Ideas, about ten kinds of saññå, here translated as ideas: ³Monks, these ten ideas, if made to grow and made much of, are of great fruit, of great profit for plunging into the deathless, for ending up in the deathless. What ten ideas? The idea of the foul, of death, of the repulsiveness in food, of distaste for all the world, the idea of impermanence, of ill in impermanence, of not-self in Ill, the idea of abandoning, of fading, of ending...² Plunging into the deathless means the attainment of nibbåna. This sutta teaches us that all these kinds of saññå are developed together with satipatthåna, otherwise they could not lead to the deathless. The following sutta explains the connection of similar kinds of saññå with the ³throrough comprehension of lust². We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch XXII, § 8, Lust: ³ Monks, for the thorough comprehension of lust ten qualities should be made to grow. What ten? The idea of the foul, of death, of the repulsiveness in food, of non-delight in all the world, of impermanence, of ill, of the not-self, of abandoning, of fading interest, and the idea of ending...² Thus, it is emphasized here that paññå that leads to detachment . The arahat has thorough comprehension of lobha, so that it can be completely eradicated. **** Nina. 52680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, planning. nilovg Hi Phil, op 21-11-2005 00:32 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > >> N: >> understanding>, nobody denies that when there are hiri and > ottappa even >> without understanding, the citta is kusala. > > OK, I just find when I'm listening sometimes this doesn't come > though so clearly. Well, for example the notion of wanting to have > less akusala is always assumed to be akusala. ------- N: Not always. The kusala chandha is alternated by lobha and wrong view, but cittas succeed one another so rapidly, it is hard to discern them. When we listen we should not take things out of context as you know. It is a warning to realize that lobha is luring us. But I notice that you are inclined to think that whatever you do must be akusala. Not entirely so. Ph: The sobhana cetasikas which are >> abstention, virati cetasikas, perform their function. > > So if they arise without understanding, they are still kusala? --------- N: Yes, kusala citta can be accompanied by wisdom or be without it. We cannot plan them to be such or such. And even thinking about what we shall do to avoid akusala is a conditioned nama. I like the Sutta on the Removal of unwholesome thoughts, because at one moment one may be inclined to write down the praises of the Buddha (not on paper but on computer now), at another moment one will ring a bell. We have to be farsighted, like the mariner who took his ship with treasures and his people safely back, as the late Ven. Dhammadharo said. Just like the Bodhisatta who accumulated the perfections and looked far, far out to the goal in the future. We may realize that turning left (figurative speech) is to one's detriment, and turn right. This way of thinking is a conditioned nama. It is conditioned already, but this, as you know, is no fatalism. You gave a very good illustration that we never know where the citta takes us: Excellent example of anattaness. Nina. ------- N: Yes, 52681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] right and wrong practice. nilovg Hi Sarah, K.S. II, §3: The Way. Transl of patipada, practice. Here D.O. is taught. When compared to the way leading out of samsara, even kusala including jhana is wrong practice. The Co: even the five abhiññas [the mundane] and the eight attainments [N: of jhana] are miccha-pa.tipada under this aspect. B.B. p. 536. He does not mention this Co. Nina. op 17-11-2005 09:29 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I meant to ask you which sutta you were referring to ages ago when > you mentioned that ‘jhaana is called wrong practice’. I don’t have the ref > #, but it was in a post to Ng Boon Huat in the context of how kusala kama > without panna doesn’t lead out of samsara. I was just interested to look > at the sutta. 52682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) nilovg Hi Matheesha, I know this sutta, but in a somewhat different wording. It is the nirodha samaapatti, I think. Temporal stopping of citta, and he needs some preparation. You were thinking that some cittas do not experience an object. But, suppose, nothing is the object, as in arupa jhana, than there is still an object: namely a concept of nothing. When there is an experience there is citta and this must experience something. But this area is difficult. Some arupa jhana subjects and others are called not-so-classifiable objects: navattabbaaramma.na, but still aaramma.na, object. Nina. op 21-11-2005 17:40 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > 'Friend, based on how many factors is the release of mind in > signlessness? 52683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Modern Theravada nilovg Dear smallchap, no, no, perhaps I was not to clear. No need to apologize. Nina. op 21-11-2005 09:03 schreef smallchap op smallchap@...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > N: (in a rhetorical question) to smallchap: are we attached to our > home, nice >> food, etc. Meaning: we all are of course, it is quite natural, but we > can >> realize the truth. > ----------------- > > S: I sincerely apologise for misunderstood your earlier post. 52684 From: nina Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:00am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 9, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, Question: If someone is at the beginning level of study, he learns terms and concepts. How can he go beyond this level and do without them? Sujin: At the beginning level we learn terms and names, but what do such names designate? As to the term citta, for example, what does it designate? It is a term for a dhamma that is reality, for the element that experiences, the reality that experiences. Therefore, we should not cling to the term citta, we can change the term citta into viññåna (consciousness) or into mano (mind). But these terms refer to the nature that experiences something, to the reality that experiences. When citta arises it must experience something, it is impossible that it would not experience something. If our understanding is correct, it will become firmer and more established. While we are asleep, is there citta? There is. While we are asleep, does citta experience an object? The nature of citta cannot be altered; it is the reality that experiences and thus, also that citta must be like that. However, while we are asleep, the object of citta does not appear, because it is the object of the bhavanga-citta, life-continuum. The bhavanga-citta succeeds the rebirth-consciousness and experiences the same object, and the rebirth-consciousness has the same object as the cittas that arose shortly before dying in the previous life. All bhavanga-cittas throughout that life experience the same object. Therefore we should know that the bhavanga-citta is not a citta that is depending on the doorways of the eyes, the ears, the nose, the body or the mind. However, it knows an object, because citta is a reality that must experience something. If we understand the true characteristics of realities there is correct understanding. If we cling and in that way interfere with the understanding of realities it is evident that they cannot be seen as they are. Question: Does this mean that when I have understanding of the realities of citta and cetasika, I do not interfere with their functions? Sujin: At this moment realities perform their own functions already, but we do not know that they are citta and cetasika. However, when we study the Dhamma, we know that citta is the leader, it is the chief in knowing an object; it does not remember, it is not angry, it does not love, it does not hate. Its only function is being the leader in knowing an object. Citta is able to experience the characteristic of what appears at this moment. The rúpa that presents itself at this moment through the eyes appears to citta. When sound appears, there are actually many kinds of sounds, but citta is able to experience each kind of sound. Thus, citta is the chief, the leader in cognizing an object, it clearly knows the different characteristics of the objects that present themselves. However, citta is not paññå; paññå is correct understanding that knows realities as non-self. ******* Nina. 52685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) nilovg Hi Sarah, thank you. I like especially what you say about nimitta without words. Of course the subject is very large, Nina. op 21-11-2005 09:02 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: 14 animita dhammas. I didn't write about them before, but it came up in > some very detailed discussions on nimitta, adhivacana dhammas, pannatti, > nirutti etc as I mentioned before. Eventually we'll get round to editing > and making these available too. 52686 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma class. Cetasikas' study corner . nilovg Hi Ng Boon, Would you tell us about your Abhidhamma class? Many of us here would be interested. I can see that you really consider Abhidhamma. Nina. op 21-11-2005 07:41 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > But I do like > monday as I have Abhidhamma class tonight and after > monday things will move faster as tuesday, 52687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness, aniccaa nilovg Hi Joop, this time in India Kh Sujin stressed very much; citta arises and then falls away, and never returns. The momentary aspect was emphasized. Very helpful. Nina. op 21-11-2005 10:03 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Why always anatta, anatta, anatta and so little anicca in DSG? 52688 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:53am Subject: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) matheesha333 Hi Nina, It is indeed a very interesting sutta. It speaks of a lot of things, including nirodha samapatti, abiding in emptiness, abiding in noself, animitta, etc. The bit i quoted seems to be talking about animitta. What does a magga or phala citta 'experience'? Or does it not experience? What about nevasanna na-nasannayatana. Maybe these are exceptions to the rule? metta Matheesha > When there is an experience there is > citta and this must experience something. But this area is difficult. Some > arupa jhana subjects and others are called not-so-classifiable objects: > navattabbaaramma.na, but still aaramma.na, object. > Nina. > op 21-11-2005 17:40 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@h...: 52689 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:04pm Subject: my own words nichiconn nice to see you, Sukin, if i were to speak of my understanding, it would be too personal; i only know connism, i guess it would be called; i told charles i'm dismissive of mahayana flavoured posts and yet i write them from this plato's cave, arrogantly refusing to accept that my entire vision is more than just clouded and i really do not "see the light" at the end of my tunnel(vision); there is just that wall of ignorance sheltering us from the truth & i am blind to the whole eggshell "i" confine myself to but believe is there because "buddha said so", and of course, it makes sense to me ;). what motivates me? concern for self(-satisfaction). "i" will escape samsara. "i" aspire to ideals only: "peace". what is that? was i not, honestly, disappointed to read my hopes described as annihilist? ha! what self would readily understand the buddha instead of obstinately fighting and having to be dragged along the way? i can only accept what i can wrap my own precious, pre-conceived ideas around and these beliefs are far, far from being stretched beyond their limit. but enough of me. who cares? haha... "who meditates"? viriya, vinnana, sati... such as these, who else? what is it to "meditate"? "to understand directly, one element". foolishly, connie 52690 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Animitta dhammas (was Re: [dsg] photos) buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - I am glad that my name is in your addressee list because it drew my attention to the ongoing discussion on 'animitta' and 'nimitta' that are related closely to 'sanna' , 'khammatthana', and 'Nibbana'. Your research is great becuase it summarized all important facts, and it has been helpful. Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Nina (Tep & all), > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Now, I am doing a little cross reference of animitta, this because of my > > exchanges with Matheesha. Many texts really. I would very much like to > > have > > your post on the 12 animitta dhammas. > ... > S: 14 animita dhammas. I didn't write about them before, but it came up in > some very detailed discussions on nimitta, adhivacana dhammas, pannatti, > nirutti etc as I mentioned before. Eventually we'll get round to editing > and making these available too. > > We discussed how there are nimitta without words even now, following the > visible objects and so on. As long as there is sanna, it conditions > thinking of nimitta. Because of sanna now, we know who's who, as it > recognises the nimitta. > > So there are nimitta about or of everything appearing through all the > doors - nimitta of realities and nimitta of ideas. > > I think it was Num who referred to the Samyutta Nikaya commentary and some > difficult questions addressed to Citta the householder. > > The 14 animitta dhammas as I recall are: > > 1 nibbana > 4 magga and 4 phala cittas > 4 arupa jhana cittas (away from nimitta of rupa) > 1 vipassana/insight (direct experience of impermanence) > > I've found more details on vipassana as animitta in 'The Path of > Discrimination V, 95': > > "What is the signless (animitta) liberation? > > Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence is the signless liberation > since it liberates from the sign as impermanent......Knowledge of > contemplation of signlessness is the signless liberation since it > liberates from all signs. Knowledge of contemplation of desirelessness is > the signless liberation since it liberates from the sign as desire. > Knowledge of contemplatiion of voidness is the signless liberation since > it liberates from the sign as misinterpreting.....etc" > ***** > > Of course, when there's seeing or hearing, for example, there's no > nimitta, so the '14' doesn't mean that there is nimitta being experienced > with all other cittas. > > I hope this helps. You may like to also look at the other references in > 'The Path of Discrimination' under 'animitta'. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== > 52691 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:57pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 313- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [g] philofillet Hello Ng Boon Thank you for your feedback. > In Abhidhamma sense, there is no self, just dana > cetasika. And it arises by itself (non-self) if the > conditions is right. It is like a pot filling with > flow of water and when the pot is full with the right > conditions, it will overflow. All we can do is > condition it to have smaller pot for beautiful > cetasika and larger pots for Akusala cetasika. This is an interesting metaphor. I remember when I first learned about the perfection of khanti (patience) from a book by Thich Nhat Hahn, he talked about khanti as increasing our capacity to tolerate things that cause aversion, without responding in the usual wrong way. I think if we think about having a smaller pot for beautiful cetasikas, there will be trying to have too many beautiful cetasikas too soon, but yes, something like that could be going on due to conditions. > And talking about effords or energy, there is always > Right Efford based on the 8 fold path to guide us: > 1. Prevent the unarisen unskillful mental states > 2. Eradicate the arisen unskillful mental states > 3. Develop unarise skillful mental stages > 4. Maintain the arisen skillful mental stages > It can be carried out anywhere and time even on > monday. Yes, very true, this is always going on - well, it can always be going on, if there are conditions for it. Personally, I find that the second right effort, abandoning the arisen akusala, is the one that can arise most often in daily life. Reading a sutta and reflecting on it in the morning often during the day conditions abandoning of arisen akusala thoughts, I find. As for developing and maintatining kusala, I think it is something that one had best not think about, or it will just be lobha, desire for results. We know that it does go on, as I posted about. Kusala arises at times we don't expect it - it is beyond our control, it is anatta. Of course all the right efforts are beyond our control - it just seems to me that #2 might arise more than the others. BTW, I wonder about the word "eradicate" because that sounds like the roots have been removed, but of course the roots are still there. Wouldn't "abandon" be better, maybe? > Monday will always be there... in fact it is a very > hard day for most of us lay people. An interesting thing is that for me, it's not actually Monday. My days off are Wednesday and Thursday, so I am coming closer to my weekend. But we are effected by the mental states of others. On Sunday, my students are chipper and energetic, and lobha for having students like that is conditioned. On Monday, when they are tired after their first day back at work, the energy is completely different in the classroom. (Well, a different place as well, a suburban school rather than exciting Shibuya in central Tokyo.) The lobha that was conditioned the day before is frustrated and dosa arises. Fortunately, there is an accumulated tendency to work hard to help others, and that arises despite the dosa. All going on beyond my control. Very interesting. >But I do like > monday as I have Abhidhamma class tonight and after > monday things will move faster as tuesday, wednesday, > thursday and friday actually flies very fast... hahaha Scary how fast it flies, and scary how we cling to it. I do at least, though Dhamma is helping me to have a little bit of detachment. A very, very little bit. As you know, in Abhidhamma, there is no time in this sense. There is only citta, arising and falling away. Each moment of citta is a moment of life and death, in that sense. But we have accumulated so much interest in the chronological story and that causes us a lot of suffering. I don't think there is any way that any one of us here can get around that in this lifetime, but I guess I am pessimistic in that sense. Phil 52692 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, planning. philofillet Hi Nina > But I notice that you are inclined to think that whatever you do must be > akusala. Not entirely so. Yes, a stage in developing understanding, perhaps, but I find myself aware of how much lobha there is, really aware of that "dome of lobha" that A. Sujin refers to, the dome that can be pierced by a moment of understanding, but not so easily removed. I guess this is conditioned by the fact that I am studying only suttas in the salayatanasamyutta, where there are so many suttas that point at the speed and uncontrollabiltiy and prevalence of the arising of akusala. For example, this morning I studied SN 35:136, in which we larn that devas and humans "delight in forms, take delight in forms, rejoice in forms" (And the other external sense bases) And with the change, fading away and cessation of these forms (etc) devas and humans dwell in suffering. The exception to this rule? In this case it is the Arahant, but in other suttas (and later in this sutta) it is the noble ones, period. The ariyans. This is sobering stuff, and confirms what I sense about the hungering nature of mind, the prevalence of lobha, the rarity of liberating understanding. It is easy to have calm and pleasant mental states and feel that something profound is going on, but I feel it is almost inevitably the "delighting in mental phenomena" pointed at above. I am not fretting about all this lobha, there is no way out but patience. And there not be as much of it for others. We know we are born with different predominant roots. I am like a lobha leech, sucking comfort and pleasure out of life. And it is all this lobha that gives rise to the aversion. But patience can arise, equanimity can arise, renunciation of pleasure can arise. And they do arise. There is hope. > Ph: The sobhana cetasikas which are > >> abstention, virati cetasikas, perform their function. > > > > So if they arise without understanding, they are still kusala? > --------- > N: Yes, kusala citta can be accompanied by wisdom or be without it. > We cannot plan them to be such or such. > And even thinking about what we shall do to avoid akusala is a conditioned > nama. Yes, "even thinking about what we shall do to avoid kusala is a conditioned nama." That's right. > We may realize that turning left (figurative speech) is > to one's detriment, and turn right. This way of thinking is a conditioned > nama. It is conditioned already, but this, as you know, is no fatalism. > You gave a very good illustration that we never know where the citta takes > us: always seem dull and sleepy (maybe because it is Monday) and I often tell > myself to preserve my energy, not to waste it on them.... > And yet there is always something that propels me to give the best lesson > possible. > > Excellent example of anattaness. Yes, and we can know that turning right is to our detriment and turn left instead and then a moment or two later we are back to turning right. I think yesterday when I posted about what unexpected kusala arising at work there was a lot of lobha. I was trying to write myself into a good mood. Of course that didn't work. I left home feeling absolutely foul, ready for a fight. (Fortunately, the conditions didn't arise.) Sat on the train glaring with intense aversion at a woman whose noisy children were preventing me from having the nap I always have on that ride. Sat down at the table with the students, and lo and behold, the kusala arose again (I guess.) And I made them very happy. (I Guess.) That's a kind of generosity arising beyond control. Thanks for the feedback, NIna, and sorry for the liberal snipping. Phil 52693 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation lbidd2 Hi Joop and Tep, Here's the answer as to what is concentration: From MN 121: "Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle, & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness - the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk - not attending to the perception of village, not attending to the perception of human being - attends to the singleness based on the perception of wilderness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure." L: Concentration is one-pointed focus, not necessarily a meditative state. This sutta is important because it explains "emptiness of other" [concentration], shows how concentration conditions insight into realities and their characteristics, and shows a gradual development from conventional objects (eg. wilderness) to ultimate realities (ayatanas). Abiding in emptiness is simply seeing things as empty of other. For an arahant, this includes seeing nibbana as empty of other. "His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of [one object] wilderness." Larry 52694 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:09pm Subject: Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. . buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Attn. Jon, Matheesha, Howard, Swee, Htoo)- After I had posted my previous message I reflected on it and felt sorry, because it sounded aggressive (and arrogant) even to me -- but I did not have such an intention. So please always kindly ignore anything in any of my posts (past, present, or future) that may iritate you. Meanwhile, I will try to be more and more careful. > > Tep: It might be so for a person who has not understood > > the Teachings well enough. I think I see it differently. .... Then the fourth step ["attend to the relaxing of > >thought- fabrication with regard to those thoughts"] has failed > >as well. So now I have no choice but to remain firm, > >not yielding to the akusala vitakka. -------- >N: I am not inclined to thinking of steps to be taken in order. One person will find this way helpful another finds that way helpful, depending on the individual. There are many opportunities, helpful suggestions here. It depends on the conditioning factors that propell citta here or there. But it should be understood that whatever one does, it is not self that is taking the action. We can say this, repeat this, but realizing the truth is hard, I find. Tep: Yes, I do respect everybody's right to find the most helpful way for himself (or herself). On the other hand, the "order" or "steps" for relaxation of akusala vitakka is, indeed, clearly implied by the sutta's wordings -- not mine ! ["If evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts ..." Tep: Hence, if 'A' fails, then do 'B'.] Howard, Swee, and Htoo know very well what I mean by the "order" of practice. Nevertheless, I do agree with you (as Ajahn Sujin has also rightly pointed out) that one should avoid thinking (intending) as follows: 'I' must do this first, then 'I' must do that. Yes, realizing the anatta truth is hard, because it is for advanced learners. But every beginner, while practicing to become a professional in something, must find it necessary to memorize instructions in step-by-step fashion (so that sati can be established and he/she is not forgetful). Once he/she has become proficient, all the steps seem to disappear or smoothly blend together. Some examples are painting, dancing, and driving an automobile (or even boxing). Remember the 'raft simile' ? ......................... >N: Clinging to self is so deeprooted, it is difficult to see. Kusala citta is alternated with akusala citta all the time. More often akusala citta than kusala citta. Tep: Sadhu! I need to keep that in mind too. I hope to discuss this point with you again (and again) since it is so important and underlying almost all the discussion themes we have here. An unanswered question that I keep asking (and unintentionally bothering a few people) is : Is there a way to condition a stream of kusala cittas to continue as long as we desire ('chanda' -- in the good sense)? Htoo has explained and Jon and I have discussed this issue, but there is no agreement, only more loose ends. :-) The doubt may very likely be "deeprooted" in my stubborn mind (infested with wrong views and no panna). {:<|) . Or, it might simply be that so far noone has done a good job in explaining it rightly and clearly. ....................... > > Tep: ..... It is too analytical -- in reality I > >only focus all attention to fight with the "evil thoughts". > ........................ >N: Only paññaa can conquer akusala. See many, many suttas: by >thoroughly understanding akusala it can be eradicated. >We do not have to think this is not my palate, no, there can be >direct awareness of hardness or pressure, no thinking. This >awareness can stem from listening to satipatthana and >understanding of what can be the object of awareness: >one nama or rupa at a time, no concepts such as teeth or palate. Tep: Sounds so easy to me. But you know that words and thoughts are on a different plane from that of "direct knowing" and "direct awareness". I understand your suggestion as follows: by listening to satipatthana, and understanding only one nama or rupa at a time, direct knowledge may arise in the mind and that is the panna that can conquer akusala. Is my understanding correct? More questions : We need panna through direct knowledge to conquer akusala, but how is it possible that direct knowledge or direct awareness may arise when there is an akusala citta at that moment? And even if there is no akusala in the citta for several moments, is that sufficient for direct knowledge to arise? If the answer is 'yes', then we all can become arahants in this very life. ........................ >N: Among them Buddhanussati, metta, foulness of the body, mindfulness of death. Metta when we meet or think of others; foulness: we carry it around, it is with us; mindfulness of death: are we not confronted with death also around us? Tep: Are you implying that we do not need the "undirected meditation" to develop "direct awareness" (by 'bhavana')? ........................... ........................... [Discussion of Ten Perceptions AN X.60, or the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch VI, § 6 ] >N: Plunging into the deathless means the attainment of nibbaana. This sutta teaches us that all these kinds of sanna are developed together with satipatthaana, otherwise they could not lead to the deathless. Tep: Thank you so much, Nina, for talking about this great sutta. I see your point that sati (mindfulness) is there for the development of tranquillity and insight. It is clear that the tenth "idea" (sanna), i.e. the anapanasati, is based on satipatthana. But why all ten are needed? Even the anapanasat kammatthana is sufficient by itself for attaining the "deathless". One more question: Do you think that the perception of abandoning (pahana sanna) or "the idea of abandoning" is very much the same as the "thought relaxation" sutta (MN 20) that we discussed earlier? >N: Thus, it is emphasized here that paññå that leads to >detachment . The arahat has thorough comprehension of lobha, > so that it can be completely eradicated. Tep: I agree wholeheartedly if the panna that leads to detachment is the "full-understanding as abandoning" [Vism. XX, 3]. But what about us? How do we "get there"? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, (snipped) > > ........................ > N: Only paññaa can conquer akusala. See many, many suttas: by thoroughly understanding akusala it can be eradicated. > We do not have to think this is not my palate, no, there can be direct > awareness of hardness or pressure, no thinking. This awareness can stem from listening to satipatthana and understanding of what can be the object of awareness: one nama or rupa at a time, no concepts such as teeth or palate. > ------- > >> N: When the bhikkhu is discouraged about his unwholesome thoughts he can be inspired when he thinks of the excellent qualities of the Buddha. These thoughts will cause him to be full of enthusiasm and > > they will strengthen his confidence and dedication to the Master. > > (snipped) > > .................... > Now the suttas. They show the close connection of subjects such as asubha with satipatthana. > > We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch VI, § 6, Ideas, about ten kinds of saññå, here translated as ideas: > > ³Monks, these ten ideas, if made to grow and made much of, are of great fruit, of great profit for plunging into the deathless, for ending up in the deathless. What ten ideas? > The idea of the foul, of death, of the repulsiveness in food, of distaste > for all the world, the idea of impermanence, of ill in impermanence, of > not-self in Ill, the idea of abandoning, of fading, of ending...² > (snipped) 52695 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry and Joop - It was great that we are sharing what we have learned from the suttas. And I appreciate your answer to the question "What is concentration?". > > L: Concentration is one-pointed focus, not necessarily a meditative > state. This sutta is important because it explains "emptiness of other" > [concentration], shows how concentration conditions insight into > realities and their characteristics, and shows a gradual development > from conventional objects (eg. wilderness) to ultimate realities > (ayatanas). Abiding in emptiness is simply seeing things as empty of > other. For an arahant, this includes seeing nibbana as empty of other. > > "His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its > perception of [one object] wilderness." > Tep: For your information, the Buddha, our Great Teacher, had questions-and-answers on samadhi (concentration) as follows: "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." [AN XI.1, Kimattha Sutta] http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-001.html Regards, Tep ========= 52696 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Complete Comprehension ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Completely Comprehending & Leaving the All is the Crucial Core Capability! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, without directly knowing & completely comprehending the All, without being disgusted with it and leaving it all behind, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the eye, forms, consciousness of seeing, eye-contact & whatever feeling caused by eye-contact, without being disgusted with it and without leaving it all behind, one is incapable of destroying any suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the ear, sounds, consciousness of hearing, ear-contact & whatever feeling conditioned by ear-contact, without becoming disgusted with it and abandoning it all, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the nose, smells, consciousness of smelling, nose-contact & whatever feeling emerged as a consequence of nose-contact, without becoming disgusted with it & letting it go, one is incapable of eradicating suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the tongue, tastes, consciousness of tasting, tongue-contact & whatever feeling arised caused by tongue-contact, without being disgusted with it & without discarding it, one is incapable of exterminating any suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the body, touches, consciousness of touching, body-contact & whatever feeling induced by body-contact, without becoming disgusted with it and relinquishing it all, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the mind, ideas and metal states, mental consciousness of thinking, mental-contact and whatever feeling arised caused by mental-contact, without becoming disgusted with it & releasing it all, one is incapable of eradicating any suffering... This, friends, is that All, which without directly knowing, without completely comprehending, without being disgusted by & without leaving, one is incapable of eliminating all suffering... Comments: The radical rationality of the Buddha-Dhamma here shines forth, wiping much empty babble away! Since what is suffering? The five Clusters of Clinging are suffering! Body, Feeling, Perception, Construction & Consciousness and thus also the 6 senses, their 6 objects, 6 kinds of consciousnesses, their 6 kinds of contact and their 6 kinds of feeling are all suffering... Why is all that suffering? Because all that is inherently impermanent and thus always lost, decaying, & vanishing by itself... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [17-8] The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Complete Comprehension: Parijanana Sutta (26) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 52697 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation sarahprocter... Hi Joop, Sorry for not responding earlier when you asked, but I see you got many other replies anyway. I hope they continue. --- Joop wrote: > So my question remains: how to contemplate emptiness with the text of > this Sutta playing a central role? I mean: contemplating emptiness > without thinking about the nature and phases of jhana; and doing this > as a worldling for whom being arahat and reaching nibbana is to far > away to bother. ... S: Just a few of my personal reflections as I read the sutta (using Nanamoli/Bodhi transl and comy notes they give). 1.The Buddha says: “ ‘As formerly, Ananda, so now too I often abide in voidness” ..... Note: “‘Su~n~nataavihaara....the fruition attainment of voidness (su~n~nataphala-samaapatti), the fruition attainment of arahantship that is entered by focusing upon the void aspect of Nibbaana.’” [earlier note emphasizes that the commentary stresses that the Four deliverances are one in meaning because the terms - the immeasurable, nothingness, voidness, and the signless - are all names for Nibbaana, which is the object of the fruition attainment of arahantship.) ..... S: When I read about the attainments of the arahants and even more so of the Buddha, I just reflect of the wonder of the great wisdom attained. I don’t read it as something I have to ‘bother’ or ‘not bother’with. ..... 2. “‘Again, Ananda, a bhikkhu – not attending to the perception of people, not attending to the perception of the forest – attends to the singleness dependent on the perception of earth.” .... S: Even now as we read it, we may reflect on how we proliferate on ideas of ‘people’ and ‘forests’. In truth, what are they, but ‘earth’! ..... Note: “Having used the perception of earth to attain the four jhanas, he extends the earth kasina and then removes the kasina sign to attain the base of infinite space. See Vism X, 6-7.” ..... S: Someone mentioned that it doesn’t give detail of the rupa jhanas here, but not all details are given in every sutta. Also, the Buddha often addresses the highest attainments and ways of becoming enlightened (with highest jhanas as base), but this doesn’t mean that all or even many attained enlightenment in this way. Just as he describes all the stages of enlightenment up to arahantship doesn’t mean that this is possible for all. ....... 3.”Again, Ananda, a bhikkhu – not attending to the perception of the base of nothingness......base of neither perception-nor-non-perception – attends to the singleness dependent on the signless concentration of the mind.” ..... Note: “Animitta cetosamaadhi. MA: This is the concentraton of the mind in insight; it is called ‘signless’ because it is devoid of the signs of permanence, etc.” S: As I wrote yesterday(#52664), insight (vipassana) is animitta or ‘signless’. So here the text is referring to the development of insight and specifically to the stages of insight. Concentration and wisdom are ‘yoked’ when insight arises. .... 4. “He understands: ‘This field of perception is void of the perception of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. There is present only this non-voidness, namely, that connected with the six bases that are dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’Thus he regards it as void of what is not there, but as to what remains there he understands that which is present thus: ‘This is present.’ “Thus, Ananda, this too is his genuine, undistorted, pure descent into voidness.”[evampissa esaa aananda, yathaabuccaa avipallathaa parisuddhaa su~n~nataavakkhanti bhavati] ..... S: When there is the development of satipatthana and stages of insight are attained, there is no jhana object appearing. Only dhammas as included in the ayatanas. The present dhammas appearing are known precisely and without any distortion as void of anything lasting or any self. 5.”Again, Ananda, a bhikkhu.....- attends to the singleness dependent on the signless concentration of mind. His mind enters into that signless concentration of mind and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision. He understands thus: ‘This signless concentration of mind is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’” ..... Note: “MA calls this ‘counter-insight’ (pa.tivipassanaaa), i.e the application of the principles of insight to the act of consciousness that exercises the function of insight. On the basis of this he attains arahantship.” ..... S: No matter what the prior experiences, whether jhana experiences or any other states, whatever appears has to be known as being conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta in order for the realization of the unconditioned state and the eradication of defilements. ..... 6. “When he knows and sees thus, his mind is liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’” etc ..... S. Realization of arahantship. A description of the highest attainment – full liberation.. ..... 7. “He understands: ‘This field of perception is void of the taint of sensual desire; this field of perception is void of the taint of being; this field of perception is void of the taint of ignorance. There is present only this non-voidness, namely, that connected with the six bases that are dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ Thus he regards it as void of what is not there, but as to what remains there he understands that which is present thus: ‘This is present.’ Thus, Ananda, this is his genuine, undistorted, pure descent into voidness, supreme and unsurpassed.” ..... Note: “Here the words ‘supreme and unsurpassed’ (paramaanuttaraa) have been added. MA says that this is the arahant’s fruition attainment of voidness (su~n~nataphala-samaapatti).” ..... S: Sometimes ‘void’ (sun~n~na) refers to being void of the taints (eg perception is void of the taint of ignorance [su~n~namida.m sa~n~naagata.m avijjaasavenaati]), non-void here(asu~n~nata.m) refers to the continuation of the 6 (or 12) ayatanas dependent on life. Arahatship, the complete void of the taints is the highest attainment of voidness (su~n~nata.m), and here there is the dwelling in the fruit of this voidness with nibbana as object. I think it’s very important to be clear that as Nyantiloka states in his dictionary, in Theravada, su~n~na(adj) or su~n~nataa(n) refers “exclusively to the anattaa doctrine,i.e the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: ‘Void is the world...because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self’ (su~n~nam attena vaa attaniyena vaa; S XXXV, 85).” ***** Joop, you may just get a little idea of how I look at a sutta such as this. Just my working reflections at this point with much more to consider and learn! I’m grateful to you and everyone else in this regard for helping me to look a little closer at this sutta. Whatever sutta I read, I reflect on the nature of conditioned dhammas now as we speak. Without the meeting or connecting of the ayatanas, such as seeing, eye-base, visible object, concentration, contact and other mental factors now, there’d be no chance of such dhammas being known eventually as very fleeting, worthless and insubstantial elements. Only by such highly developed wisdom can there be complete detachment from them and the unconditioned element, nibbana, be known. It’s a reminder to me now that seeing can be known as anatta, visible object can be known as anatta and so on for any other realities appearing. Have I answered your question? I’m not sure, but thank you for asking anyway. Metta, Sarah ======== 52698 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 0:53am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 316- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [j] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] Someone may be stingy as to Dhamma. He may not want to share Dhamma with others because he is afraid that they will acquire the same amount of knowledge as he himself or even more. The sotåpanna who has realized the four noble Truths, has eradicated all forms of stinginess. He wishes everyone to know and realize the Dhamma he has realized himself. Those who are non-ariyans may have stinginess as to Dhamma. However, there may be good reasons for not teaching Dhamma. One should not teach Dhamma to someone who is bound to abuse the Dhamma and to interpret it wrongly, or to someone who will erroneously take himself for an arahat because of his knowledge. There is no stinginess if one does not teach Dhamma to such persons, because one acts then out of consideration for the Dhamma or out of consideration for people. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52699 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:16am Subject: Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Chris, Steve (& Andrew T), Andrew mentioned (off-list) that you had a Cooran weekend get-together and said 'we had some good discussions about satipatthana and various DSG threads which I'm hoping they report back on list about'!!. I'll look f/w to hearing about any of the points discussed and/or any dhamma-ish anecdotes...I know Nina and some others will too. Metta, Sarah p.s Steve & Andrew, I'm glad you're also getting copies of 'Survey'. I hope others interested in the Abhidhamma, contact Sukin or me(off-list) for a copy too. =============== 52700 From: nina Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:12am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 200 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 200 and Tiika. Intro: In this section feeling is classified according to its sabhaava or characteristic. Sabhaava is translated as individual essence or intrinsic nature. This classification is different from the classification according to the jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya as we have seen in the preceding section. In this section unpleasant feeling, for example, is not viewed under its aspect of unwholesomeness, but under its aspect of being disagreeable, not peaceful, causing disturbance and being overwhelming. Thus, it is viewed according to the characteristic, sabhaava, that is experienced. Pleasant feeling is not viewed under the aspect of its moral value, but as to the characteristic of being agreeable, being peaceful. --------------- Text Vis. 200: (b) 'According to individual essence': painful feeling is 'gross' compared with the others because it is without enjoyment, it involves intervention, causes disturbance, creates anxiety, and is overpowering. ------- N: The Tiika explains as to the expression, without enjoyment, that it is the opposite of happiness. As to the expression, with intervention (vipphaara, pervasion), the meaning is that it is Œwith trembling¹, not peaceful. As to overpowering (abhibhavana), the Tiika explains that this is by submerging or smothering (ajjhotthara.na). When unhappy feeling is intense one is as it were overcome by it. It seems to last, but in reality it arises and then falls away immediately. -------- Text Vis.: The other two are subtle compared with painful feeling because they are satisfying, peaceful, and superior, and respectively agreeable and neutral. -------- N: The Tiika explains as to the expression, respectively agreeable and neutral, that neutrality is not obtained in pleasant feeling nor enjoyableness in indifferent feeling. But, it states, peacefulness etc. is to be found in pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling in all respects. -------- Text Vis.: Both the pleasant and the painful are gross compared with the neither-painful-nor-pleasant because they involve intervention, cause disturbance and are obvious. ------- N: As to involving intervention, savipphaara, this literally means: pervading. Pe Maung Tin translates: attended with trembling. As to causing disturbance, the Pali has: khobhakara.na, which means shaking up. Pleasant and painful feeling are evident; when they appear one can notice them. But indifferent feeling is not so obvious. It accompanies, for example seeing, and at such moments it seems that there is no feeling. However, feeling accompanies each citta, there never is a moment without feeling. When feeling is not pleasant or unpleasant, it is indifferent feeling. --------- Text Vis: The latter is subtle in the way aforesaid compared with both the former. ---- The Tiika adds to Œthis¹ (the latter): indifferent feeling. Text Vis.: Thus should grossness and subtlety be understood according to individual essence. --------- N: The Dispeller of Delusion, I, p. 15, under Feeling aggregate elaborates on the expressions shaking and pervading connected with pleasant and painful feeling: Unpleasant feeling is without enjoyment and pleasant feeling is agreeable and excellent. There are many degrees of subtlety and grossness, and there are conditions for the arising of subtle and gross feeling. One may prefer pleasant feeling to unpleasant feeling, but they are only conditioned dhammas that are beyond control, non-self. ***** Nina. 52701 From: "Jean" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:42am Subject: [dsg] My work related to the money rules[was]Re: What's the meaning of Maha-Paccari? jean_5004 Dear sarah, How nice you are! Thanks your information & sorry for answering so late! Yes, all the copies I use (from our library) are "PTS", they are good copies. The main source materials of my work are nissaggiyapaacittiyaa 10,18,19 & 20---their paali & atthakathaa (included their tr.), of course, and some important researches as reference materials. Such as "The Buddhist Monastic Code"by Ven. Thaanissaro, "Buddhist monastic life" by Mohan Wijayaratna, "The Bhikkhus' Rules A Guide for Laypeople" by Bhikkhu Ariyesako, Ajahn Brahmavamso's articles & the Japanese works...etc. Besides, I'll also refer to some other rules on nissaggiyapaacittiyaa & paacittiyaa to expound and prove some topics of the Money Rules. Now,I try to deal with other parts first, & come back to the difficult paali later.Thx again for everything you did. warmest regards Jean --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Jean, > > --- Jean wrote: > > > By the way, according to SP III 675-677, normally, Bhikkhu is > > allowed to ask the suitable requisites after a daayaka has given an > > invitation to ask for requisites. Otherwise, the subsistence for > > Bhikkhu is too hard. > ... > S: Yes, this is what I understand. Otherwise the daayaka would never know > what is required. > > I can't help with your Pali trans qus in your other message, but I wonder > if you have access to a good copy of the Patimokkha and Vinaya itself (as > you're referring to the comy on them)? > > I have in front of me a good copy of the Patimokkha (PTS, transl by > Norman) which has the Pali and English side by side. I'm sure you have > access to a copy too. > > Under nissaggiyapaacittiyaa it gives the rules concerning robes and > robefunds etc which your comy notes may be based on. > > The last one is: > > "8. [It may be that] by a householder or householder's wife, not related > [to the bhikkhu], a robe fund (ciivaracetaapana.m) has been laid by > specifically for a bhikkhu, [thinking], 'Having purchased a robe with this > robe fund, I will dress the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe.' If that > bhikkhu should, having gone there without being previously invited, > suggest an alternative in respect of the robe, [saying], '[It would be] > truly venerable if one, having purchased this or that kind of robe with > this robe fund, dress me [with that],' because of desire for a fine > [robe], there is an offence entailing expiation with forfeiture." > ..... > > I'm sure you also have access to I.B.Horner's translation of the Vinaya > Pitaka, 'Book of the Discipline' which gives all the background details > and stories behind the laying down of the various rules. It may also help. > > As I said before, I hope the comy, the Sp gets translated into English > too. Good luck with your translation points. Let us know if you get it > sorted out and keep us posted on your research. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s If by any chance you don't have access to these texts and wish me to > check anything, pls say. > ========= > 52702 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:38am Subject: vipassana or contemplation? philofillet Hi Sarah I was listening to a talk from last August, in Bangkok. You were asking A. Sujin about something you'd heard in a talk, how at moments of insight (vipassana-nana?) there is vipassana but at other times "contemplation." Do you remember this talk? You asked about this, and this was the exchange: A. Sujin: "As soon as awareness is aware of a characteristic, does panna really know that, or does it take time?" Sarah: "It takes time." A. Sujin; "And that is what is meant by contemplation." And then I think you said something about a kind of gap that is this contemplation, rather than having direct understanding through vipassana. It's a difficult point, beyond me, but I was surprised that it takes panna time to know the characteristic when there is awareness of it. I thought panna and sati rose and fell away together to know the characteristic. Does this panna that "takes time" relate to pariyatti and panna that doesn't "take time" (ie is immediate and direct) relate to patipatthi? Thanks in advance Phil 52703 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:44am Subject: RE: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) dacostacharles Hi Sébastien, Most schools (that I have looked into) believe the buddhas, arhant, and buddhasavatts have a different DO cycle (the second cycle). They can be independent because their arising can also be relative (not sequential). Daughter bugging m43 Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sebastien Billard Sent: Sunday, 20 November, 2005 13:59 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Practice/Ken (Was Re: [dsg] Re: incredible indiaMhaanidana) Hi Charles, >There was another post I made which includes another type of DO cycle >(e.g., >in Arhants), see if you can find it and reply to it. Yes I read them but didn't fully understood your question so I didn't answered... Could develop more perhaps ? As I understand it arahants and even buddhas are ordinary beings, it is juste that by right means (panna, sila, bhavana), they broke the DO circle. Their DO circle is the same. >You comment is good and there is some truth to it. However, the elements >and >the cycles of DO are still more complex (both interdependent and >independent). How could they be independant ? Nothing can happen without cause, no ? Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr 52704 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > Sorry for not responding earlier when you asked, but I see you got many > other replies anyway. I hope they continue. >.... Dear Sarah Your answer is late but very rich. A technical problem is how to place it in the discussion-thread that more or less gots its end yesterday; and a mental problem how to place it in my frame of reference. I try to answer sometimes repeating some phrases of me from the thread. On some remark I don't react, are food for thought. First: you use the commentaries, old (Buddhaghosa ?) and Bhikkhu Bodhi. As I said some days ago: I'm not a priori convinced that the commentators are right: Like all human beings they are scared to hear unknown, uncomprehensible things, mystic texts. And then they try to reduce or change the content of such a text in something they know and understand, for example the phases of the 8 jhanas or the anatta doctrine. I'm sure this theory is in general terms correct but I don't know if it fits this Sutta. Sarah: "1.The Buddha says:" `As formerly, Ananda, so now too I often abide in voidness" ..... Note: "`Su~n~nataavihaara....the fruition attainment of voidness, the fruition attainment of arahantship that is entered by focusing upon the void aspect of Nibbaana.'" Joop: This commentator seems not interested in this first part of the Sutta but jumps to the end. It neglects the peculiar sequence of the begin: Perception of Village, of Human Beings, of Forest, of Earth? Sarah: "Someone mentioned that it doesn't give detail of the rupa jhanas here, but not all details are given in every sutta." Joop: The second part of this Sutta seems to give a arupa jhana instruction, but the first part describes possibly something else then getting rupa jhanas. See the scheme I quoted in #52632 I'm specially interested in this first part of the Sutta and think it's to easy, to standard-thinking that the topic must be coming to jhana. So your Buddhaghopa quote is perhaps not the only possible interpretation: "Having used the perception of earth to attain the four jhanas, he extends the earth kasina and then removes the kasina sign to attain the base of infinite space. See Vism X, 6-7." My guess: the aimed function of this part of the Sutta is contemplation on the text of it and not just concentration at 'earth' as a kasina! Sarah: "When I read about the attainments of the arahants and even more so of the Buddha, I just reflect of the wonder of the great wisdom attained. I don't read it as something I have to `bother' or `not bother'with." Joop: You are right, "bother" is not the best english term for expressing what I meant. Perhaps better is: when I climb a mountain I'm not looking every second at the top of it, I prefer to look at some point some hundred meter above me. So on my buddhistic path I don't think every second on arahatship, stream-entry is the highest point I'm thinking about, higher is just theory for me. Sarah: "I think it's very important to be clear that as Nyantiloka states in his dictionary, in Theravada, su~n~na(adj) or su~n~nataa(n) refers "exclusively to the anattaa doctrine, i.e the unsubstantiality of all phenomena: `Void is the world...because it is void of a self and anything belonging to a self' " Joop: I'm so free to disagree. To me sunnata also refers to anicca ! I repeat: emptiness is in my opinion more than no-self, it is no- anything. To say it more objective: the same Nyatiloka explains "anicca: 'impermanent' is THE FIRST of the three characteristics of existence (tilakkhana, q.v.). It is from the fact of impermanence that, in most texts, the other two characteristics, suffering (dukkha) and not-self (anattá), are DERIVED (S. XXII, 15; Ud. IV, I) And as I have said more: to me anicca is more important for my buddhistic path then anatta. I was glad that Nina yesterday (#52687) told me even Sujin is now teaching on anicca. So hip hir hip hurah for anicca. (As a indirect reaction to Tep: I stated before to Sarah: anatta is special important to people who are fighting their strong ego. For people with a soft ego, a vague identity and with a strong 'need for ontology' (like me) anicca is the more central theme) I will not try to find Sutta-quotes to 'proof' that I'm right but I'm sure that I'm not totally wrong, I remember half a year ago Kel more or less agreed with me. (Sometimes I think some DSG-participants should give their belief- system the name "anattavada", just as Ven Sujato gives the name "vipassanavada" to who state formal vipassana sitting meditation is the only way.) All this remarks en parenthèse. Concluding: your message gives me much information and - when I understand it better - insight; but what is in your opinion the function of the first part of the Sutta for a wordling reading it? I think: for contemplation, not for getting in jhana as soon as possible. It's a coincidence but perhaps this has something to do with to question of Phil in #52702? Metta Joop 52705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: Animitta dhammas. nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 21-11-2005 20:53 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > What does a magga or phala citta 'experience'? Or does it not > experience? ------- N: They are lokuttara cittas experiencing nibbaana, or, we could say animitta. This does not mean that I understand them. As a worldling we only know the theory. We have to understand first the nimittas at this very moment, such as seeing, visible object, etc. And that is already difficult. So many misunderstandings accumulated since ages. --------- M: What about nevasanna na-nasannayatana. Maybe these are > exceptions to the rule? ------- N: This is the fourth arupajhana. Citta and cetasikas, it is said, are still arising but as a residual formation. The Atthasaalinii (Moral Arupa Consciousness) states: <'This' sphere of neither perception nor non perception takes 'that' sphere of nothingness for its object for want of another...> A novice smeared oil on a bowl and the Elder said 'Bring the bowl.' When the Elder said we will find an oil tube, the novice answered there is no oil. Thus, the object is most subtle, like in the case of the oil it cannot be said it is there, nor, it is not there. There is absence of the gross perception and presence of subtle perception, as explained by the Atthasaalinii. Nina. 52706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, sila. nilovg Hi Phil, op 22-11-2005 02:21 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Yes, a stage in developing understanding, perhaps, but I find > myself aware of how much lobha there is, really aware of that "dome > of lobha" that A. Sujin refers to, the dome that can be pierced by a > moment of understanding, but not so easily removed. I guess this is > conditioned by the fact that I am studying only suttas in the > salayatanasamyutta, where there are so many suttas that point at the > speed and uncontrollabiltiy and prevalence of the arising of > akusala. --------- N: Good. I hope you share your sutta reading with us, very useful. I liked your post on feelings very much. -------- Ph:For example, this morning I studied SN 35:136, in which we > learn that devas and humans "delight in forms, take delight in forms, > rejoice in forms" (And the other external sense bases) And with the > change, fading away and cessation of these forms (etc) devas and > humans dwell in suffering. -------- N: And I like that what people find sukha is dukkha for the ariyans. I also have the PTS, it has many notes in Pali. About turning left or right, I think that when there is a little more understanding of citta, its conditions, the way kusala and akusala are accumulated, one will in a natural way see more the danger (without aversion) of the latent tendencies. One will come to understand more that they can condition akusala in an unforeseeable way, at any time. I happened to see the Co to the Cariyapitaka about siila, taken from my Perfections a passage I had not considered enough myself. I like it because we see that siila includes much more than keeping the precepts. <"Thus, esteeming virtue as the foundation for all achievements, as the soil for the origination of all the Buddha-qualities, the beginning, footing, head and chief of all the dhammas issuing in Buddhahood--and recognizing gain, honour and fame as a foe in the guise of a friend, a Bodhisatta should diligently and thoroughly perfect his virtue as a hen guards its eggs: through the power of mindfulness and clear comprehension in the control of bodily and vocal action, in the taming of the sense-faculties, in the purification of livelihood and in the use of the requisites." Sila is not only refraining from unwholesome actions and speech, it is also the performing of wholesome actions and speech, such as showing respect or helping others. The Bodhisatta was foremost in virtuous deeds and speech. He was always ready to help and protect other beings. He spoke words which were blameless, pleasant and beneficial, having beings' welfare in mind. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka states that the Bodhisatta had courteous conduct to those worthy of respect. He was waiting upon the sick and helping those who were in need. He inspired with talk on Dhamma those who were in need to be inspired. He was contented with little and he saw danger in the slightest faults.> I like the simile of the hen and eggs, no small matter. But, as you also know, it should not be: "I must watch my sila". Nina. 52707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation nilovg Hi Sarah, I read your post with great interest. Meanwhile, I lost the annotation of this sutta. I have B.B., which page is it? Nina. op 22-11-2005 09:51 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: Just a few of my personal reflections as I read the sutta (using > Nanamoli/Bodhi transl and comy notes they give). > > 1.The Buddha says: > “ ‘As formerly, Ananda, so now too I often abide in voidness” 52708 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) nilovg Cooranites, op 22-11-2005 10:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I'll look f/w to hearing about any of the points discussed and/or any > dhamma-ish anecdotes...I know Nina and some others will too. -------- N:Yes, yes. I talked with Chris about Andrew's farm. Nina. 52709 From: nina Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:17am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Dhamma Discussions in Hotel Sofitel (Part II) Question: Someone said that he thought of hardness, but this is a term. You said that this kind of thinking is better than thinking of other things. Sujin: Thinking of citta, cetasika and rúpa is better than thinking of other things. Question: That resembles clinging to samådhi, concentration, fixing our attention on one object. Sujin: Nobody can prevent himself from thinking. There are conditions for thinking and thus we think time and again. However, before we listened to the Dhamma we used to think of this or that person, this or that thing. After we have listened to the Dhamma, we think of citta, of cetasika, but we should know that this is only thinking, not awareness and understanding of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, paññå should grow and understand realities more deeply. Question: When we cling, we may keep on concentrating on realities, is that not so? Sujin: Therefore, paññå should develop. We should know that at such moments there is no understanding of the characteristics of realities. People may merely think about realities when they experience the characteristic of hardness through touch. At such moments they are inclined to think, this is hardness, or, hardness is rúpa. They think of names, of words. From now on one should understand that when one knows at such moments just words, it is not satipatthåna. Realities must have characteristics that appear. Hardness is a characteristic of dhamma that is real; hardness arises and falls away, but this can be known by paññå. When paññå does not arise it seems that a reality is present already all the time, but one does not realize the truth. A reality arises so that it can be experienced through contact; thus, it can appear, and then it falls away immediately. If people have listened to the Dhamma, the right cause can bring its appropriate result. When they have realized the truth they know that it must be in the way I just explained. Krayadib: Before I practised, it seemed that I was clinging to the word bhåvanå, mental development. But gradually this inclination disappeared when I asked myself what kind of habit I was accumulating. Now I study the Dhamma and I have refrained already for a long time from clinging in that way. Now I am used to often think about concepts designating realities. I know that this is a dhamma that thinks. Acharn explained this, so that we know that it is a reality that thinks. I worry about it that I seem to merely repeat these words, and I wonder how this will gradually disappear. Jonothan: Acharn says that hardness is a reality that arises and falls away all the time. Sujin: Hardness arises and then it appears; if it does not arise it cannot appear. Is this true or not? Paññå should know the truth of everything. ****** Nina. 52710 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 0:35pm Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) jwromeijn Dear Sukin My general problem with your message is that is has a "either - or" character. I think it's possible that both methods are correct: the method of Sujin, Nina, you and the method of the more discursive Suttas in which volitional actions are activities. Applied to 'formal' meditation: I think that insight-meditation plus mindfulnes in daily life is the best combination. Sukin: "Besides the NEP being one of the 4NT, could not be referring to a series of conventional actions, could it? " Joop: Oh yes, it can. 'Conventional' language is only a more clumsy than ultimate language, but can describe the same truth. Sukin: "I can't see much sense in interpreting the different factors of the NEP as separate actions to take; in fact this seems to encourage `self view" to some extent." Joop: here the anxiety for having a self-view gets astronomous dimensions. How do you in detail describe "right livelihood" in your terms? Sukin: " It is possible that your understanding of anatta is much better than my own, but until we have reached the first stage of enlightenment, don't you think it beneficial to be reminded no matter how often?" Joop: No it's not always beneficial, it can get an obsession. And it's not that my understanding of anatta is much better than yours, but I have not so much problems with it, as I explained to Sarah some hours ago (see #52704) The same about the difference nama-rupa: that's not difficult as long as we don't try to translate 'rupa' with 'matter'. But let me reassure you, there are things that are difficult to me, 'Paticcasamuppada' for example is; I'm now reading of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu about it, I'm afraid you do not agree with him. Sukin: "… no matter where we are, the root of a tree, a meditation retreat or wherever, we will end up in fact only dealing with our personal projections. Further, it seems to me that it is precisely because of this lack of confidence that the mind then proliferates into "methods" and ideas about "samatha-vipassana" and so on practices!" Joop: I agree with this; so there is no problem any more: I try to meditate without illusions and try to spend the rest of the day without illusions too. Sukin, I propose a 'last round' in our discussion, and you can make your message as long as you will. Metta Joop 52711 From: "colette" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:45am Subject: Typo's ksheri3 Good Morning Tep, Yep, that was a typo. Hasn't anybody noticed that I tend to get a lot of those in my long posts since I don't have the time to proofread. The library only lets me have a limited amount of time my friend. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Colette (Attn. Sarah, Htoo, Ken H, Phil) - > > I am curious whether or not there is a typo in the quote below : > > They who are not aware no not die; > They who are unaware are as dead. > > (Should the "no not" be deleted?) colette: NYET, no, the typo should be corrected to "...do not die" > > Now, let's discuss the more interesting part of your message : > > Colette's Quote: "The senses derive from physical objects, physical > objects from mind, mind from intllect, intellect from ego, ego from the > unmanifested seed, and the unmanifested seed from Brahman--the > Uncaused Cause." > > Tep: I don't understand what this quote is about. colette: CAUSE & EFFECT, Dependent Origination. It's simply making a statement that the mind is part of the system of our world. Actually I believe that it has to do with the reasoning behind Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa, (I'd love to get into the Trimsika and Vimsatika but time time time). I don't feel that it's very fruitful to be studying Buddhism while knowing perfectly well that this, Buddhism, is a resultant consciousness from the Hindu. I ponder if this Krishna Consciousness thing that I ran into when I was hitch-hiking across the states in the 80s goes back to the Upanishads and therefore manifested itself in deeper understanding through the Buddhist traditions. --------------------- > > .................... > > Colette's Quote: "Fools follow the desires of the flesh and fall into the > snare of all-encompasing death; but the wise, knowing the Self as > eternal, seek not the things that pass away." > > Tep: I, as a Buddhist, disagree with that eternal Self. > ............. colette: no problem however we shouldn't forget that Carl Gustav Jung recognized the Collective Unconscious as a means of explaining the psychoses people travel through. Before that we can see in Buddhism the "storehouse consciousness" which has to deal with karma and the cycle of birth and rebirth. While the debate of an eternal Self cannot be definatively resolved while in this existance we can give ourselves options to investigate. ---------------------- > > Colette : Death can be seen as many things yet we all got it comin', > since there really isn't that much room any longer for people to grow > food, maybe it was for people to throw out garbage, ... ... > > > Tep: Ahh, I see now ! You are a materialist, possibly a Christian -- not > a Buddhist. colette: Ouch, no wonder they once had a mythology about "The Left Hand Path" reaching out to great people with the right hand while concealing weapons with their left hand. Hmmm,that's dangerous ground to mix me in with the X-tians, the Archdiose of Los Angeles figured out what I was doin' on Hollywood Blvd. back in 1981-2 and they didn't take a very good liking to it. ... Concerning the materialist label, the manufacturer didn't put enough adhesive, glue, on the backside of that label, so it'll fall right off, won't stick. I am not a materialist in the sense that I adore material possessions and wish to horde such things as is the case of the standard middle-class family in the States. I am a materialist in the sense that I believe it exists and is empty of value, Sunyata, it exists because there are more minds in this world than just my mind and I cannot find the strength to overcome the manifestations of the collective consciousnesses of the entire world, therefore I believe it exists. Me, let something go without observation or question? You must be high on some hallucinegenic such as wealth, or power,or carrying a gun, or mushrooms, or.... GIVEN: things exist, ah but how do they exist? Lets go to the atomistic view and reduce the world to atoms and the collection of atoms, etc. If the theories of meditation are correct then I should be able to restructure these atoms, recombine the atoms, in a way suitable to my self and my choosing (to suite my purposes). Now, maybe, your "materialistic" label will have any efficacy. toodles, colette 52712 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:26am Subject: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases leoaive Sattatthana Sutta Seven Bases Translated from the Pali ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying At Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks replied to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Monks, a monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled & fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person. "And how is a monk skilled in seven bases? There is the case where a monk discerns form, the origination of form, the cessation of form, the path of practice leading to the cessation of form. He discerns the allure of form, the drawback of form, and the escape from form. "He discerns feeling... He discerns perception... He discerns fabrications... "He discerns consciousness, the origination of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness. He discerns the allure of consciousness, the drawback of consciousness, and the escape from consciousness. "And what is form? The four great existents [the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on form: that is the allure of form. The fact that form is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of form. The subduing of desire & passion for form, the abandoning of desire & passion for form: that is the escape from form. "For any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing form in this way, directly knowing the origination of form in this way, directly knowing the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the allure of form in this way, directly knowing the drawback of form in this way, directly knowing the escape from form in this way, are practicing for disenchantment — dispassion — cessation with regard to form, they are practicing rightly. Those who are practicing rightly are firmly based in this doctrine & discipline. And any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing form in this way, directly knowing the origination of form in this way, directly knowing the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the allure of form in this way, directly knowing the drawback of form in this way, directly knowing the escape from form in this way, are — from disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to form — released, they are well-released. Those who are well-released are fully accomplished. And with those who are fully accomplished, there is no cycle for the sake of describing them. "And what is feeling? These six bodies of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose- contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body- contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling... The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on feeling: that is the allure of feeling. The fact that feeling is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of feeling. The subduing of desire & passion for feeling, the abandoning of desire & passion for feeling: that is the escape from feeling... "And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception... The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on perception: that is the allure of perception. The fact that perception is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of perception. The subduing of desire & passion for perception, the abandoning of desire & passion for perception: that is the escape from perception... "And what are fabrications? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications. From the origination of contact comes the origination of fabrications. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of fabrications. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of fabrications... The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on fabrications: that is the allure of fabrications. The fact that fabrications are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of fabrications. The subduing of desire & passion for fabrications, the abandoning of desire & passion for fabrications: that is the escape from fabrications... "And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye- consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue- consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness. "For any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing consciousness in this way, directly knowing the origination of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the allure of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the drawback of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the escape from consciousness in this way, are practicing for disenchantment — dispassion — cessation with regard to consciousness, they are practicing rightly. Those who are practicing rightly are firmly based in this doctrine & discipline. And any priests or contemplatives who by directly knowing consciousness in this way, directly knowing the origination of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the allure of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the drawback of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the escape from consciousness in this way, are — from disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to consciousness — released, they are well-released. Those who are well- released are fully accomplished. And with those who are fully accomplished, there is no cycle for the sake of describing them. "This is how a monk is skilled in seven bases. "And how does a monk have three modes of investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co- arising. This is how a monk has three modes of investigation. "A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person." 52713 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:29pm Subject: Lily picture htootintnaing Dear Jon ( & Sarah ), Very beautiful picture. First dry. Now DSG becomes much much more lively. Flowers. They blossom. They dry up. They change to dirt. Impermanence. Anicca. No essence in such ever vanishing stuff and it is unsatisfactory. No one can fix not to vanish. Uncontrollable. Anatta. What a good picture! Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! With respect, Htoo Naing 52714 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Re: my own words htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > nice to see you, Sukin, > > if i were to speak of my understanding, it would be too personal; i only > know connism, i guess it would be called; i told charles i'm dismissive of > mahayana flavoured posts and yet i write them from this plato's cave, > arrogantly refusing to accept that my entire vision is more than just > clouded and i really do not "see the light" at the end of my > tunnel(vision); there is just that wall of ignorance sheltering us from > the truth & i am blind to the whole eggshell "i" confine myself to but > believe is there because "buddha said so", and of course, it makes sense > to me ;). > > what motivates me? concern for self(-satisfaction). "i" will escape > samsara. "i" aspire to ideals only: "peace". what is that? was i not, > honestly, disappointed to read my hopes described as annihilist? ha! > what self would readily understand the buddha instead of obstinately > fighting and having to be dragged along the way? i can only accept what i > can wrap my own precious, pre-conceived ideas around and these beliefs are > far, far from being stretched beyond their limit. > > but enough of me. who cares? haha... "who meditates"? viriya, vinnana, > sati... such as these, who else? what is it to "meditate"? "to > understand directly, one element". > > foolishly, > connie --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Connie, Not that foolish. Actually you are a wise lady, Mumy, like Amara. Please do not ask which Amara, :-)). Because it is about foolishness and wiseness. Who is in samsara? Who is escaping? Who is attaining nibbana? Who is left in the samsara? Who who who who who ... ... ... ... ... ... If there is no self,... Meditate, Ananda. Meditate, meditate. Or else, ... ... ... Meditate, Cunda. Mediate, meditate. Or else, ... ... ... This is our instructions to you [The Buddha]. With much respect, Htoo 52715 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > > Sattatthana Sutta > Seven Bases > Translated from the Pali > ---------- > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying At > Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. There he > addressed the monks, "Monks!" > > "Yes, lord," the monks replied to the Blessed One. > > The Blessed One said: "Monks, a monk who ... ...."A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of > investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & > discipline — the ultimate person." ------------------------------- Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Htoo Naing 52716 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 574 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The last stock of dhamma that I have been writing is saccaa or 'Noble Truths'. The first finished so far. The second Noble Truth is samudaya. It is tanha or craving. The unit of dhamma it bears is lobha cetasika. There are sufferings. There are dukkha. All these dukkha derive from samudaya or tanhaa or craving. This craving or tanha is always always led by moha or avijjaa. Where do craving come from? We are sensing. a) we see something and then we pass into thinking. b) we hear something and then we pass into thinking. c) we smell something and then we pass into thinking. d) we taste something and then we pass into thinking. e) we touch something and then we pass into thinking. f) we sense a thought and then again we pass into much more complex thinking. Craving is a naama-dhamma or mentality. So it does not grow from any of physical or material things. But craving is there at eyes when we see. Craving is at visual object when we see. If someone well learnt what craving is like he can beat craving with pannaa or wisdom to death. Burn craving. Kill craving. Deroot craving. Eradicate craving. Fight craving. Craving is coming to you in various form. Give it a machine gun shots (sati). May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 52717 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: Animitta dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: We have to understand first the nimittas at this very moment, such > as seeing, visible object, etc. And that is already difficult. So many > misunderstandings accumulated since ages. > --------- M: IMO if you fill your mind up with concepts you will only see more concepts. Everything we learn are only approximations of the real thing. To see reality you need to drop all the preconcieved notions about what you are supposed to see, and just experience...deeply. Because the dhammas are the teacher of the Buddhas themselves. The learning helps us in pointing out what to look out for, rather than it being the truth itself. > M: What about nevasanna na-nasannayatana. Maybe these are > > exceptions to the rule? > ------- > N: This is the fourth arupajhana. Citta and cetasikas, it is said, are still > arising but as a residual formation. The Atthasaalinii (Moral Arupa > Consciousness) states: > <'This' sphere of neither perception nor non perception takes 'that' sphere > of nothingness for its object for want of another...> > A novice smeared oil on a bowl and the Elder said 'Bring the bowl.' When the > Elder said we will find an oil tube, the novice answered there is no oil. > Thus, the object is most subtle, like in the case of the oil it cannot be > said it is there, nor, it is not there. > There is absence of the gross perception and presence of subtle perception, > as explained by the Atthasaalinii. M: Thats a lovely description, thank you for that metta Matheesha 52718 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases buddhistmedi... Hi, Leo - Thank you very, very much for posting this magnificient sutta. It is magnificient because it shows how one can become "the ultimate person" -- the Arahant. What else do we need to know? # In summary : "A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person." -- Skilled in seven bases: discerning (pariggaha) the five aggregates, their origination, their cessation, the path of practice(patipada) leading to their cessation(nirodha), their allure, their drawback, and the escape (nissarana) from them. -- The "direct knowing" of these seven bases is the practice for disenchantment, dispassion, and cessation of the five aggregates. Those who practice this way are "well released" and "fully accomplished". -- Three modes of investigation: "There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties (dhatu), investigates in terms of sense spheres(salayatana), investigates in terms of dependent co- arising(paticcasumuppada). This is how a monk has three modes of investigation." Don't you have any comment about this sutta? Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > > Sattatthana Sutta > Seven Bases > Translated from the Pali > ---------- > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying At > Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. There he > addressed the monks, "Monks!" > > "Yes, lord," the monks replied to the Blessed One. > > The Blessed One said: "Monks, a monk who is skilled in seven bases > and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled & fully > accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person. > > "And how is a monk skilled in seven bases? There is the case where a > monk discerns form, the origination of form, the cessation of form, > the path of practice leading to the cessation of form. He discerns > the allure of form, the drawback of form, and the escape from form. > (snipped) 52719 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 200 and Tiika. Far or Near ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - While reading your post on "feelings" I thought of the following passage in the Anattalakkhana Sutta : "Any feeling whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every feeling is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' [endquote] What are external feelings? What kinds of feelings are 'common', and what kinds are sublime'? Are 'far or near feelings' our feelings, or are they somebody else's ? Why are these feelings useful as "objects" of satipatthana? Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > > Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 200 and Tiika. > > Intro: In this section feeling is classified according to its sabhaava or > characteristic. Sabhaava is translated as individual essence or intrinsic > nature. This classification is different from the classification according > to the jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya as we have seen in the > preceding section. (snipped) 52720 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: Typo's Let's toodle somewhere else? buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette (and Htoo)- I am not sure you really explained what the following quote meant : "The senses derive from physical objects, physical objects from mind, mind from intllect, intellect from ego, ego from the unmanifested seed, and the unmanifested seed from Brahman--the Uncaused Cause." >colette: CAUSE & EFFECT, Dependent Origination. It's simply making a statement that the mind is part of the system of our world. Actually I believe that it has to do with the reasoning behind Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa, (I'd love to get into the Trimsika and Vimsatika but time time time). I don't feel that it's very fruitful to be studying Buddhism while knowing perfectly well that this, Buddhism, is a resultant consciousness from the Hindu. Tep: If you don't mind, please translate the above quote into ordinary English that I can understand. Can you do it for me? .................. >Colette: While the debate of an eternal Self cannot be definatively resolved while in this existance we can give ourselves options to investigate. Tep: Interesting ! What are our options? And how do you suggest we investigate the "eternal self"? ............... >Colette: GIVEN: things exist, ah but how do they exist? Lets go to the atomistic view and reduce the world to atoms and the collection of atoms, etc. If the theories of meditation are correct then I should be able to restructure these atoms, recombine the atoms, in a way suitable to my self and my choosing (to suite my purposes). Now, maybe, your "materialistic" label will have any efficacy. Tep: I can see now that your view on whatever subject is far away from the 'Theravada tradition' of DSG. So may I suggest that we go to another Yahoo! forum to continue our dialogue there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Universalanswer/ By the way, this is a Website created by our friend Htoo. :-)) Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > (snipped)> > > > Tep: I don't understand what this quote is about. > > colette: CAUSE & EFFECT, Dependent Origination. It's simply making a > statement that the mind is part of the system of our world. Actually > I believe that it has to do with the reasoning behind Vasubandhu's > Abhidharmakosa, (I'd love to get into the Trimsika and Vimsatika but > time time time). I don't feel that it's very fruitful to be studying > Buddhism while knowing perfectly well that this, Buddhism, is a > resultant consciousness from the Hindu. I ponder if this Krishna > Consciousness thing that I ran into when I was hitch-hiking across > the states in the 80s goes back to the Upanishads and therefore > manifested itself in deeper understanding through the Buddhist > traditions. > --------------------- (snipped) > > Concerning the materialist label, the manufacturer didn't put enough > adhesive, glue, on the backside of that label, so it'll fall right > off, won't stick. I am not a materialist in the sense that I adore > material possessions and wish to horde such things as is the case of > the standard middle-class family in the States. I am a materialist in > the sense that I believe it exists and is empty of value, Sunyata, it > exists because there are more minds in this world than just my mind > and I cannot find the strength to overcome the manifestations of the > collective consciousnesses of the entire world, therefore I believe > it exists. > > Me, let something go without observation or question? You must be > high on some hallucinegenic such as wealth, or power,or carrying a > gun, or mushrooms, or.... 52721 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Nina (and all), I have been a bit quiet over the past couple of weeks, but still here, reading every word. Thanks for your interest in our Cooran meeting. I don't know if this is saying much, but it seemed to be even more "in depth" than usual. One point not resolved to everyone's satisfaction involved the Bhikkhuni Sutta where it referred to craving and conceit [for the idea of becoming an arahant]. The sutta asks something like; "Is this craving wholesome or unwholesome?" "It is unwholesome." "Is it to be pursued or not to be pursued?" "It is to be pursued." I have no trouble understanding this to mean it is to be pursued 'by following the Path' - as distinct from, 'by having more of the same unwholesomeness.' But there was some opinion to the contrary. It was suggested that an unwholesome desire to become an arahant was OK, and it would not lead to further unwholesomeness. In support of this "dangerous contention" it was said that the second noble truth was not, "Tanha, which leads to rebirth," but rather, "The tanha that leads to rebirth." The implication being that some tanha does not condition rebirth (either directly or indirectly). Is this right? At another time we were reading from my new copy of "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas." (Thank you very much Christine, Sarah, Nina, Jon and everyone else instrumental in giving me this book.) It defined Satipatthana in three ways - as referring to, 1) the objects of sati (the four satipatthanas), 2) sati (when it is aware of those objects) and 3) the Path developed by the Buddha and his disciples. This caused me to reminisce over a debate I had had with a very knowledgeable, former DSG member (going by the name of Nutcracker (?)). Loosely quoting K Sujin, I had said that the Buddha taught satipatthana, 'and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana.' Nutcracker thought this was ridiculous, and argued that satipatthana was just one of many things taught by the Buddha. It would be a hollow victory that relied solely on K Sujin's wide, threefold, definition of satipatthana (even though it is, no doubt, taken from the texts). I stick to the belief that the entire teaching is about understanding paramattha dhammas. Regardless of whatever it discusses - walking, concentrating on breath, devas, rabbits on the moon - the aim of the teaching is always right understanding of the present namas and rupas. Another of our conversations related to a commentary recently quoted on DSG (by Nina or Sarah?), which surprisingly went unremarked upon. The commentary said that a monk should take a "notepad" from his satchel and write down his thoughts about the Buddha. It also referred to a his counting "matches." How ancient could a commentary be if it mentioned notepads and matches? We talked about K Sujin's personal history, and we wondered if it was only she (and her students) who understood Dhamma-practice to be free of "formal meditation." Are we really that alone? Is it true that all other modern-day authorities (Bhikkhu Bodhi etc.) regard the Abhidhamma as a later addition to the original texts? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Cooranites, > op 22-11-2005 10:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > > I'll look f/w to hearing about any of the points discussed and/or any > > dhamma-ish anecdotes...I know Nina and some others will too. > -------- > N:Yes, yes. > I talked with Chris about Andrew's farm. > Nina. > 52722 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: Complete Comprehension ... !!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Venerable Samahita - I wonder why both "direct knowing" and "completely comprehending " of the All are required for one to become "disgusted with it" and for "relinquishing it all" ? Isn't direct knowing sufficient for complete comprehension to arise? Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > Friends: > Completely Comprehending & Leaving the All is the Crucial Core Capability! > > At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: > Bhikkhus, without directly knowing & completely comprehending the All, without being > disgusted with it and leaving it all behind, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... > Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the eye, forms, consciousness of > seeing, eye-contact & whatever feeling caused by eye-contact, without being disgusted > with it and without leaving it all behind, one is incapable of destroying any suffering... > Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the ear, sounds, consciousness of > hearing, ear-contact & whatever feeling conditioned by ear-contact, without becoming > disgusted with it and abandoning it all, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... > Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the nose, smells, consciousness of > smelling, nose-contact & whatever feeling emerged as a consequence of nose-contact, > without becoming disgusted with it & letting it go, one is incapable of eradicating suffering... > Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the tongue, tastes, consciousness of > tasting, tongue-contact & whatever feeling arised caused by tongue- contact, without being > disgusted with it & without discarding it, one is incapable of exterminating any suffering... > Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the body, touches, consciousness of > touching, body-contact & whatever feeling induced by body-contact, without becoming > disgusted with it and relinquishing it all, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... > Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the mind, ideas and metal states, > mental consciousness of thinking, mental-contact and whatever feeling arised caused by > mental-contact, without becoming disgusted with it & releasing it all, one is incapable of > eradicating any suffering... > This, friends, is that All, which without directly knowing, without completely comprehending, > without being disgusted by & without leaving, one is incapable of eliminating all suffering... > > Comments: > The radical rationality of the Buddha-Dhamma here shines forth, wiping much empty babble away! > Since what is suffering? The five Clusters of Clinging are suffering! Body, Feeling, Perception, > Construction & Consciousness and thus also the 6 senses, their 6 objects, 6 kinds of consciousnesses, > their 6 kinds of contact and their 6 kinds of feeling are all suffering... Why is all that suffering? > Because all that is inherently impermanent and thus always lost, decaying, & vanishing by itself... > > Source: > The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [17-8] > The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Complete Comprehension: Parijanana Sutta (26) > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then > will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > > Friendship is the Greatest ... > Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! > 52723 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:21pm Subject: Burning ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Feverish Fire of Lust, Hate and Blinded Confusion! On this occasion the Blessed One was staying at Gaya's Head, together with a thousand bhikkhus. There the Blessed One told these bhikkhus this: Bhikkhus, All this is burning! And what, bhikkhus, is that All that is burning? The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind is burning. Forms, sounds, smells, flavours, touches, and mental states are also burning! Any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental consciousness is also burning! Any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental contact is also burning! Any feeling arised caused by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mental contact, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, that too is indeed also burning... Burning with what? I say: Burning with the fire of lust, hate and confusion, birth, ageing, death, sadness, weeping, pain, discontent, & with desperation! Seeing this, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is disgusted with any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind, he is disgusted with any form, sound, smell, flavour, touch, and any mental state, he is disgusted with any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental consciousness, he is disgusted with any eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mental contact, and with whatever feeling, whether pleasant, painful or neutral, caused by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mental contact, with that too is he dismayed, disgusted, sickened, revolted, and horrified !!! Understanding this, the intelligent noble disciple is disgusted with this All ... Being disgusted creates disillusion... This disillusion induces a mental release!!! When detached the mind is unagitated! Being entirely imperturbable one attains Awakening right there & instantly understands: This mind is forever freed...!!! Rebirth is ended, this Noble Life is concluded, done is what should be done, there is no state beyond or surpassing this... This is what the Blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus was pleased with the Blessed One's speech. While this teaching was being spoken, the minds of the thousand bhikkhus were released from fermentation by non-clinging... Comments: The Fire Sermon! These bhikkhus were all prior fire-worshippers, who in blinded superstition sacrificed to the fire morning and evening! This fact made Buddha realize: If I teach them, that the 12 sense-sources are blazing & burning with pain, they will awaken right there in their seats, by relinquishing all glinging... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV 19-20 The 6 senses section 35. Thread on Burning: Adittam Sutta (28) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 52724 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment to get into contact with another sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha (Steve & all), Thanks for introducing the Sa’nga.nikaaraama Sutta (AN Bk of 6s, V11.4) and asking for comments (#52547). --- matheesha wrote: > 4. Saõgaõikàràmasuttaü- Attachment to get into contact with another. > > 007.04. Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu attached to coming into contact with > another, a lover of a crowd should take pleasure in seclusion is not > a possibility. .... S: The PTS translation for Sa’nga.nikaaraama is ‘delighting in company’ and the Buddhadatta dict gives this also. So is it really the ‘contact’ or the ‘delighting’ (i.e lobha) which is the problem would you say? .... > Not secluded and the mind not delighting in seclusion > should seize a sign is not a possibility. When the mind does not > take the sign, that the bhikkhu should be complete in right view is > not a possibility. Without completing right view, he should be > complete in right concentration is not a posibility. Without > completing right concentration, that he should dispel bonds is not a > possibility. Without dispelling bonds that he should realize > extinction is not a possibility. > > Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu not attached to coming into contact with > another, not a lover of crowds, should take pleasure in seclusion is > a possibility. .... S: What do you understand ‘crowds’ and ‘seclusion’ to mean in the highest sense? When we read in the Migajala Sutta (SN 35:63)and other suttas about ‘dwelling with a partner’ whilst alone in remote dwellings and forests vs ‘being a long dweller’ whilst mixing with bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay followers and society at large, does this have relevance do you think? What is the right view referred to? Might it be the understanding of the nature of dhammas such as the sights, sounds and so on referred to in the Migajala Sutta and the growth of detachment from these conditioned dhammas? .... >Secluded and the mind delighting in seclusion should > seize a sign is a possibility. .... S: ‘Seizing a sign’ refers to the clinging to the signs or details (cittasa nimitta.m) of the objects being experienced through the senses. Isn’t this what goes on all day long on account of sa~n~naa marking the various signs, ignorance and attachment? Can we not be said to be living a crowded, dusty life in this way regardless of whether we’re living in a hut in the forest or rushing around in a busy city? ..... >When the mind seizes the sign, that > the bhikkhu should be complete in right view is a possibility. > Completing right view, he should be complete in right concentration > is a posibility. Completing right concentration, that he should > dispel bonds is a possibility. Dispelling bonds that he should > realize extinction is a possibility. .... S: I believe this is referring to the complete understanding of such grasping (of the signs of sense objects)when it arises. This is true ‘seclusion’ and the way that the bonds are eradicated. (The PTS doesn’t translate the second part of the sutta above). ... > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara4/6-chakkanipata/007-anagamivaggo-e.htm .... S: Let me know what you think, Matheesha and it would also be helpful to have any input from anyone else, esp. on any of the Pali terms. Steve, do you have any comments? Thanks again, Metta p.s Math, have you looked at any of the posts under 'Seclusion' in U.P.? Do you have any further comments on any of them or the suttas included? ========== Sarah ======= 52725 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 313- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [g] mr39515 Dear Phil... Hi there... I enjoy reading your mail. Seem like today is wednesday and you must be off and I am still in office halfway thru the weekdays. I think it would be great to differentiate lobha and desire. Both of them are cetasika but one is Akusala while the other is beautiful cetasika. No doubt, both may have a very similar meaning "of wanting" but both have "very vast" differences. And on the term "eradicate", perhaps I should have use the word of eradicating but then "time" would come in. Perhaps some of those words would best used back the original form which is in "Pali". For understanding purposes, I believe we all know what the actual meaning.... "to cut until the root" Any way, it is all for the best to walk the path.... metta mr39515 --- Phil wrote: <...> > BTW, I wonder about the word "eradicate" because > that sounds like > the roots have been removed, but of course the roots > are still > there. Wouldn't "abandon" be better, maybe? 52726 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:09pm Subject: Re: Complete Comprehension ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Tep Sastri wrote: >Isn't direct knowing sufficient for complete comprehension to arise? Normally the ordinary person assumes to know directly the 6 senses & their object, yet still due to unconscious distortion of view, thought and perception he construes them as: 'Always Pleasant' despite the fact that the 12 sources are ultimately pain! 'Always Lasting' despite the fact that the 12 sources are ultimately momentary! 'Always Mine' despite the fact that the 12 sources are ultimately selfless! 'Always Beautiful' despite the fact that the 12 sources are ultimately foul! To constantly see the 12 sense sources as pain, as a dart, as a tumour, as a disease, as a burning pit, as excrement, as repulsive, as danger, as ever repeated death, that is directly knowing sufficient for that complete comprehension, which indeed enables release by detaching non-clinging to these 6 input senses & their tantalizing objects! : - ] Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! 52727 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 0:33am Subject: Only the 5 khandhas? antony272b2 Dear Rob K and Group, I have a question from this 3 year old thread: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Antony, > I add some more: > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, somewhere- > if not now then in the future. > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - and > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > never ceasing even for an instant. Robert http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16610 ++++ Antony: When you say there is only the five khandhas, does this mean that it is not Antony's khandhas communicating with Rob K's khandhas? (That Antony and Rob K are part of the perception khandha?) If so that would be profound – that the Buddha only existed within the causal conditioned process that I call Antony's life. Thanks / Antony. 52728 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:25am Subject: Re: Only the 5 khandhas? rjkjp1 Dear Antony, The way to understand life and Dhamma is to learn what is real and what is concept. And your question is a good one for doing just this. What is happening now: the realities i.e. the khandhas, vedana (feeling) , sanna (the reality that marks and remembers an object ) vinnana (consciousness, which is chief in knowing the object) sankhara khandha(which includes things like insight, irritation, ignorance and many more). These 4 khandhas include the thinking processes, but not the concepts that thinking thinks about -like Buddha , Robert, Antony. And then there is rupa- which includes the colors that cakkhu vinnana (seeing consciousness) knows now. So right now all these khandhas are arising and ceasing. It is impossible to stop them arising. They do their various functions and then cease and then arise again. These khandhas (paramttha dhammas) are all absolutely real but very temporary. They are so very, very fleeting that it is hard to comprehend them and what we know normally is only the nimitta (the sign) that they leave. To answer your question: let alone the Buddha, even Antony is only a concept. But the khandas are real, and those in the past (that made up what is conveniently designated as Buddha) were real. Those in the future will be real too. If you would like more on this please ask. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Dear Rob K and Group, > > I have a question from this 3 year old thread: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > Dear Antony, > > I add some more: > > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, > somewhere- > > if not now then in the future. > > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - > and > > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > > never ceasing even for an instant. > > Robert > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16610 > ++++ > Antony: When you say there is only the five khandhas, does this mean > that it is not Antony's khandhas communicating with Rob K's khandhas? > (That Antony and Rob K are part of the perception khandha?) If so > that would be profound – that the Buddha only existed within the > causal conditioned process that I call Antony's life. > > Thanks / Antony. > 52729 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:47am Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases jwromeijn Hallo Leo, Tep, Htoo, all Some questions about this Sutta -What is the source, which Nikaya etc, than I can look it up in my own translation -What is the meaning of "And how does a monk have three modes of investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising." Especially the first two I don't understand the function of it. What are 'properties'? How can I do this kind of investigations? Metta Joop 52730 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 200 and Tiika. Far or Near ! nilovg Hi Tep, op 23-11-2005 01:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:- > > While reading your post on "feelings" I thought of the following > passage in the Anattalakkhana Sutta : > > "Any feeling whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or > external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every > feeling is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is > not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' [endquote] > > What are external feelings? --------- N: Text Vis. 198. (iv)-(v) The classification into 'internal' and 'external' should be understood according to the internal in the sense of one's own. ------ N: External feeling is feeling of another person. We read in the ³Book of Analysis²: ------- T: What kinds of feelings are 'common', and what kinds are sublime'? ------- N: Common and sublime are also translated as low or high. Low: feeling accompanying cittas of the sense sphere. Sense objects are called low, hiina. Sublime: those of rupajhana and arupa jhana are higher, and those accompanying lokuttara citta are the highest. Subtle and gross is classified in many, many ways, as we shall see in the following sections of the Vis. ---------- T: Are 'far or near feelings' our feelings, or are they somebody else's ? ------- N: Vis. 209. (x)-(xi) The word 'far' is explained in the Viba.nga in the way beginning 'The unprofitable is far from the profitable and the indeterminate' (Vbh. 4) and the word 'near' in the way beginning 'Unprofitable feeling is near to unprofitable feeling' (Vbh. 4). Therefore, unprofitable feeling is far from the profitable and the indeterminate because of dissimilarity, unconnectedness,and non-resemblance. The profitable and the indeterminate are likewise far from the unprofitable. And so in all instances. But unprofitable feeling is near to unprofitable feeling because of similarity and resemblance. ---------- T: Why are these feelings useful as "objects" of satipatthana? ------------- N: It helps us to see that there are numerous conditions for all those feelings to be so varied. We do not have to find out all these details but they are useful to see the meaning of khandha: it arises because of conditions, and then it falls away and never comes back. It is past. Even if the same type of feeling arises again, it is not the same. They are beyond control, nobody can make subtle feelings arise. When there are conditions for coarse feeling it arises, nobody can prevent what has arisen already, before we realize it. The goal of the development of satipatthana is understanding dhammas as they truly are. This understanding leads to detachment from dhammas, feelings included. Nina. (P.S. I like to take time to answer your other very useful post.) 52731 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Animitta dhammas. nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 23-11-2005 01:12 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > N: We have to understand first the nimittas at this very moment, such >> as seeing, visible object, etc. > M: IMO if you fill your mind up with concepts you will only see more > concepts. Everything we learn are only approximations of the real > thing. To see reality you need to drop all the preconcieved notions > about what you are supposed to see, and just experience...deeply. --------- N: Perhaps you and I have different views about dhammas, realities, and concepts, paññattis. The Buddha speaks time and again about visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, and these are dhammas right at hand. They can be directly experienced without having to name them. Whereas person, tree, etc. are concepts formed up by thinking. Just experience, you say, but it all depends whether this is with understanding or without it. I refer now to the sutta recebtly quoted by Ven. Samahita, The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [17-8]: < At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, without directly knowing & completely comprehending the All, without being disgusted with it and leaving it all behind, one is incapable of eliminating any suffering... Without directly knowing & completely comprehending the eye, forms, consciousness of seeing, eye-contact & whatever feeling caused by eye-contact, without being disgusted with it and without leaving it all behind, one is incapable of destroying any suffering...> The same for all the other dhammas. ---------- M: Because the dhammas are the teacher of the Buddhas themselves. The > learning helps us in pointing out what to look out for, rather than > it being the truth itself. ------ N: Very true. The truth can be learnt in developing understanding of what is right in front of us. Also those who developed jhana in order not to be involved in sense objects and clinging to these had to develop insight, understanding of nama and rupa after they emerged from jhana. Otherwise they would take jhanacitta for self as the Buddha explained to Sariputta. The Patisambhidaamagga elaborates on the all that has to be directly known: rupajhanacittas, arupajhanacittas are included. Nina. 52732 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, sankharakkhandha. gazita2002 hello Nina, thank u for the explanation. it now makes sense to me. of course, panna and sati are included in sankharakkhandha, bec they are cetasikas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Azita, > yes saññaa is also important. Sati and paññaa are sankharakkhandha and they > are accumulated together with the other sobhana cetasikas. > I quote from my paramis: > > < Khun Sujin reminded us that 'sati and panña are sañkhárakkhandha, the > khandha of formations¹, which are all the mental factors, cetasikas, except > feeling (vedanã) and remembrance (saññã). Akusala (unwholesome) cetasikas and > sobhana (beautiful) ceta sikas are included in sañkharakkhandha. The > Œformations¹ form up each moment which arises. Sati and pañna which arise > now are conditioned by past accumulations of sati, panna and other wholesome > qualities. If there can be right mindfulness of a näma or rupa which appears > now this moment has been Œformed up¹ by many moments of studying, > considering and mindfulness in the past. Each moment is conditioned by many > factors and the way these condition it is very intricate. A moment of right > mindfulness falls away but the conditions for the arising of mindful-ness > later on are accumulated, since each citta which arises and falls away > conditions the next citta. Thus panña can develop until it has become > supramundane understanding (lokuttara paññã), having nibbana as its object. > Each moment which has been formed up by past accumulations is new, it > cannnot be the same as past moments, it does not come into being by simply > adding up all the past moments. Lokuttara panna is a completely new > situation, but it is conditioned by many different factors of the past, by > many moments of studying, of considering, of developing understanding of > nama and rupa, and also of developing all the perfections. All the different > wholesome qualities support one another and together they form up the > conditions for the fully developed panna. If we understand, at least in > theory, that right understanding is sankhârakkhandha, formed up by many > factors, and that it forms up later moments of understanding, it will help > us to see that panna grows very gradually in the course of many lives. azita: when i see how very little panna there is in a day, i can understand why it takes so long, so many lifetimes. But there seems to be less worry about that now. so, it takes a long, long time - so be it. > BTW, what was your sutta of the seven times eleven, in grad. S? I lost it. azita: i think it was the book of the Fours: 4 wonderful things that manifest at the appearance of a Tathagata. From AN. A > good idea to have a sutta next time and even here on this forum. Good to > discuss difficult ones. > Did you see Perfections for audio I posted? Azita; no I haven't. how do I go about hearing this? I do so benefit from the discs that S and J have most kindly edited and distributed. patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 52733 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:02am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 317- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [k] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] In the ultimate sense there are no things we can possess, there are only nåma and rúpa. If we remember this we can see that it is foolish to think that realities which arise and fall away belong to us and that we can keep them. Why are we stingy about what does not belong to us? We cannot take our possessions, our money with us when we die. Human life is so short and we waste many opportunities for kusala because of our stinginess. In the absolute sense there is no self, no person who can possess anything. Our life consists of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away. Life is actually one moment of experiencing an object; this moment falls away and is succeeded by a next moment which is different again. We cannot possess visible object or hardness. They are only rúpas which do not stay and do not belong to us. When understanding has been developed more there will be less stinginess. The sotåpanna who sees nåma and rúpa as they are, as impermanent and not self, has no more conditions for stinginess. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52734 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:29am Subject: Re: Sattatthana Sutta - Seven Bases jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Leo, Tep, Htoo, all > > Some questions about this Sutta > > -What is the source, which Nikaya etc, than I can look it up in my own > translation > > -What is the meaning of "And how does a monk have three modes of > investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of > properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in > terms of dependent co-arising." Especially the first two I don't > understand the function of it. What are 'properties'? How can I do > this kind of investigations? > > Metta > > Joop > Partly I found the answers myself Source: SN 22-57 I get the impression that the last allinea if it about the 'three modes' is a addition from another source. More about it in MN 115 'properties' is by BB translated as 'elements' and that make it more clear (to me), i know the lists of it. Still make question:P how to investigate them? 52735 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 200 and Tiika. Far or Near ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you so much for the excellent reply that is detailed enough to completely answer the questions, and yet it is concise. I'll copy it to my notebook. N: (P.S. I like to take time to answer your other very useful post.) Tep: Thank you for seeing its usefulness. But it has never been too long for me to wait for your answer. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, (snipped) > T: Are 'far or near feelings' our feelings, or are they somebody else's ? > ------- > N: Vis. 209. (x)-(xi) The word 'far' is explained in the Viba.nga in the way > beginning 'The unprofitable is far from the profitable and the > indeterminate' (Vbh. 4) and the word 'near' in the way beginning > 'Unprofitable feeling is near to unprofitable feeling' (Vbh. 4). > Therefore, unprofitable feeling is far from the profitable and the > indeterminate because of dissimilarity, unconnectedness,and > non-resemblance. The profitable and the indeterminate are likewise far > from the unprofitable. And so in all instances. But unprofitable feeling > is near to unprofitable feeling because of similarity and resemblance. > ---------- > T: Why are these feelings useful as "objects" of satipatthana? > ------------- > N: It helps us to see that there are numerous conditions for all those > feelings to be so varied. We do not have to find out all these details but > they are useful to see the meaning of khandha: > it arises because of conditions, and then it falls away and never comes > back. It is past. Even if the same type of feeling arises again, it is not > the same. They are beyond control, nobody can make subtle feelings arise. > When there are conditions for coarse feeling it arises, nobody can prevent > what has arisen already, before we realize it. > The goal of the development of satipatthana is understanding dhammas as they > truly are. This understanding leads to detachment from dhammas, feelings > included. > Nina. > (P.S. I like to take time to answer your other very useful post.) > 52736 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: my own words sukinderpal Dear Connie, Just few days ago while reading over one of my replies to Joop, at one point a feeling of irritation arose, and I felt for a moment, sorry that he should go through all this. I thought later whether if indeed there was anyone else reading them. So your post conditioned some pleasant feelings. :-) I know that my posts are largely conditioned by lobha. This morning in my car, while humming one of the tunes I tend to make up in my head, and being reminded that I can usually go on forever building up on a particular theme and creating endless variations, I was reminded about my writing style. I think it is more or less the same process going on in both cases. Lobha-Papanca. Of course with my posts, there is also the fear of not being clear enough. Still it comes down to lack of panna, I think. So perhaps, if and when there is growing familiarity with this process, then my posts may progressively become more short and precise. ;-) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Connie: > if i were to speak of my understanding, it would be too personal; i only > know connism, i guess it would be called; i told charles i'm dismissive of > mahayana flavoured posts and yet i write them from this plato's cave, > arrogantly refusing to accept that my entire vision is more than just > clouded and i really do not "see the light" at the end of my > tunnel(vision); there is just that wall of ignorance sheltering us from > the truth & i am blind to the whole eggshell "i" confine myself to but > believe is there because "buddha said so", and of course, it makes sense > to me ;). Sukin: "Conditioned" I would say, and no need to be too concerned. It has already arisen and gone away. Regarding what the Buddha said and my believing in it, what do I know? Don't we see the `Buddha' only once we have seen the `Dhamma'? Until then, it is only `my' idea about the Buddha and Dhamma. And of course in the end we all trust what "makes sense" to us, and hoping there were some moments of panna there. ;-) Meanwhile we continue discussing and/or arguing over what is th correct interpretation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Connie: > what motivates me? concern for self(-satisfaction). "i" will escape > samsara. "i" aspire to ideals only: "peace". what is that? was i not, > honestly, disappointed to read my hopes described as annihilist? ha! Sukin: This is good. I have never looked at it this way. But what about now? Still learning, and being able to avoid some of the old traps, but maybe creating new ones and getting caught in them? :-/ Anyway I think Abhidhamma helps to condition a better perspective and recognition of any potential traps. In the end however, it is only the practice of satipatthana which is going to help steer us off any wrong path. Any thinking must be ones that helps us see the importance of this. This morning while I was taking my morning walk, as always, much akusala vitakka arose. In between however there was the thought, "I should not have such thoughts". Immediately following this was what I think was recognition of this being conditioned by ignorance and where it was going to lead, i.e. some kind of action resulting at best in some form of suppression. I was then drawn to objects of the senses and the idea about how it was so natural to be drawn to them. I thought about those with the understanding of the danger of sense objects and how without the Buddha's Teachings, the best that can be done is the practice of samatha leading to jhana. But because their understanding is not of conditioned realities and the anicca, dukkha and anatta of these, the bhava tanha was in fact still the driving force behind their practice. Perhaps this is why, the moment a Brahma, even after millions of years of being in the realm, is reborn in the sensuous plane, he will immediately become drawn to sense objects? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Connie: > what self would readily understand the buddha instead of obstinately > fighting and having to be dragged along the way? i can only accept what i > can wrap my own precious, pre-conceived ideas around and these beliefs are > far, far from being stretched beyond their limit. Sukin: Surely we are not like the wieldy and sharp ones of the Buddha's time. And to think that, "In this very Life" we can become enlightened, I think this is from not appreciating the existence of the `eggshell', the fog of ignorance, the dome of lobha. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Connie: > but enough of me. who cares? haha... "who meditates"? viriya, vinnana, > sati... such as these, who else? what is it to "meditate"? "to > understand directly, one element". Sukin: And this one has already fallen away. And `self' is slow, always coming in much later, thinking of catching the next one. Not knowing that even that has fallen away. In the end, self has only the shadows as object but thinks instead that it knows a reality. :-/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > foolishly, > connie Not by my standards (excepting when I think about the Buddha's chief disciples) :-)). Metta, Sukin. Ps: You should expect your copy of the `Survey' to arrive any one of these days. 52737 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/23/05 4:26:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Antony, > The way to understand life and Dhamma is to learn what is real and > what is concept. And your question is a good one for doing just > this. > What is happening now: the realities i.e. the khandhas, vedana > (feeling) , sanna (the reality that marks and remembers an object ) > vinnana (consciousness, which is chief in knowing the object) > sankhara khandha(which includes things like insight, irritation, > ignorance and many more). These 4 khandhas include the thinking > processes, but not the concepts that thinking thinks about -like > Buddha , Robert, Antony. And then there is rupa- which includes the > colors that cakkhu vinnana (seeing consciousness) knows now. So > right now all these khandhas are arising and ceasing. It is > impossible to stop them arising. They do their various functions and > then cease and then arise again. > These khandhas (paramttha dhammas) are all absolutely real but very > temporary. They are so very, very fleeting that it is hard to > comprehend them and what we know normally is only the nimitta (the > sign) that they leave. > To answer your question: let alone the Buddha, even Antony is only a > concept. But the khandas are real, and those in the past (that made > up what is conveniently designated as Buddha) were real. Those in > the future will be real too. > If you would like more on this please ask. > Robertk > > ====================== Robert, you wrote "The way to understand life and Dhamma is to learn what is real and what is concept," and I agree that this is an essential element of coming to understand life and the Dhamma. But it is just an element, IMO. It seemjs to me that one must also come to see that the actual dhammas themselves lack self-existence, being merely conditioned phenomena that, in utter dependence, briefly arise and cease, not remaining, never being sources of true or lasting satisfaction. Seeing that even what is "real" consists of ungraspable, unrewarding will 'o the wisps leads to loss of taste for these actual but ghostlike phenomena and leads to loss of enthrallment to them, and it is that disgust and disenchantment at the finest and deepest levels that I believe leads onwards to freedom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52738 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:11am Subject: Hi All buddhatrue Hi All, Well, Amr let me out of my agreement one week early for good behavior. ;-)) Also, tomorrow is Thanksgiving so I need to be able to write to my friends and family for the holiday. It has been an interesting break for me from posting. Actually, I have been much more peaceful and dedicated to practicing the Buddha's dhamma- as in meditation practically daily (when I wasn't too tired from teaching) and reading more about samatha/jhana meditation. I wasn't sure if I should come back to DSG because I know that I can get quite agitated by some of the posts. But, I have also found that I missed you guys and I missed the dialogue. Amr says I'm addicted and I guess he's right. But, maybe it is a good addiction, like this good addiction described by the Buddha: "In the time of the Buddha there were some ascetics from other sects who criticized the Buddha and his disciples for indulging in the pleasure of meditation. The Buddha answered: 'There are these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are entirely conducive to disenchantment, to the fading away of passion, to cessation, to tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbána. What are they? [The Buddha then gives the stock definition of the four jhánas.] So if wanderers from other sects should say that the followers of the Sakyan are addicted to these four forms of pleasure- seeking, they should be told: ´Yes´, for they would be speaking correctly about you, they would not be slandering you with false or untrue statements. 'Then such wanderers might ask: ´Well then, those who are given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking--how many fruits, how many benefits can they expect? ´ and you should reply: ´They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they? The first is when a monk by the destruction of three fetters has become a Stream-Winner (sotapana, the first stage of enlightment), no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment; the second is when a monk by the complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more to this world, will put an end to suffering; the third is when a monk, by the complete destruction of the five lower fetters, has been spontaneously reborn, and there will reach Nibbána without returning from that world. The fourth is when a monk, by the destruction of the mental poisons has, in this very life, by his own knowledge and realization, attained to Arahantship, to the liberation of heart through wisdom. Such are the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking can expect." DN 29.24,25 http://www.volny.cz/chandako/text/article_samath_vipasana.html Metta, James ps. Jon and Sarah, I like the new picture of the lotuses on the introduction page. It is colorful and peace inducing. 52739 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: Hi All jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi All, > > Well, Amr let me out of my agreement one week early for good > behavior. ;-)) Hallo James, Well, I missed you too on DSG To me no internet will be a greater renunciation then no sex, but I'm an old man so that's no so difficult Impossible te recap what has been happening after you left and the India-goers are back on their posts. One ebook about vipassana-samatha I like much (and others things of him too): Ven. Sujato, "A history of mindfulnes" www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings.php) So: do it quiet, without annoying yourself Metta Joop 52740 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > I hope this reaches you before you take your leave of absence. Thx for > letting us know. James: You're welcome. This didn't reach me but I am addressing it now. > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > 1. Simply put, there is concentration at every moment > > 2. For the concentration to be `right', the consciousness must be > > wholesome. > > 3. Now when it comes to `Right Concentration' of the eightfold path, > > not only does the consciousness have to be wholesome, there also has > > to be Right Understanding of a nama or rupa at that moment and other > > path factors arising. > > 4. Even when we refer to the development of Right Concentration in > > the > > development of calm or samatha which may eventually lead to > > attainment of the jhanas, it has to be accompanied by Right > > Understanding of that kind or level too. > > 5. So, like anything connected with the Buddha's teachings, it's > > subtle and not easy to understand moments of right and wrong > > concentration as I see it. > ... > S: Thnakyou - well summarised (or point formed) James: Okay. Glad we are on the same page. > .... > > > > James: Okay, no arguments with me. I agree, basically, with > > everything you say here. But you still didn't really answer my > > original question: How is this supposed to happen without formal > > meditation practice? > ... > S: I was heartened to see you agreement. I hadn't seen this question > before. James: Yes, I do agree. Sorry you didn't see the original question: How is this supposed to happen without formal meditation practice? > > Short answer: By developing Right Understanding of the present dhammas, > initially by careful reading, considering, listening, reflecting and > questioning as we're doing here, i.e pariyatti (right theoretical > understanding), the basis for patipatti (direct understanding) of these > dhammas. James: You're saying that jhana will arise by simply participating in DSG??? > > I know you'll be reflecting further on dhammas, i.e namas and rupas, in > your absence from the internet too. James: Actually I have been focusing on samatha meditation, not vipassana. But when the time is right I suspect that vipassana will arise. > > Are you allowed to listen to recordings? If so, why not download some of > the discussions from dhammastudygroup.org. James: I will check those out. > ... > > Sarah: I think that when I began to appreciate that my meditation > > practice was based on an idea of getting results with attachment and > > furthemore on a deep-rooted idea of self that could somehow focus > > and bring about such results, it became clear to me that it was not > > the path taught by the Buddha. For others like yourself, it may be > > quite different. > > > > James: Reasonable answer and I agree. It is not the fault of the > > practice but the unrealistic expectations of the practitioner. > ... > S: Yes, meditation or bhavana always comes back to the present mind-states > of the 'practitioner'. If there is attachment or expectations, there's no > bhavana anytime. James: Yes, here we are in agreement. > > And as you know, there's no practioner, just those ever-changing > mind-states and other namas and rupas whether we call it meditation or > not. James: This is one of those metaphysical issues which is troublesome to get into. Whether there is a practioner, just namas and rupas, or ultimately "nothingness", is beside the point. The point is how is one supposed to go about purifying the mind?? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Metta, James 52741 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 1. mlnease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 11:17 AM Subject: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 1. > Question: Someone said that he thought of hardness, but this is a term. > You > said that this kind of thinking is better than thinking of other things. > Sujin: Thinking of citta, cetasika and rúpa is better than thinking of > other > things. Is this kind of thinking yonisomanasikaara? Is it also pa.tipatti? Thanks in Advance, mike 52742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] nimitta nilovg Hi Sarah, Just now I found an old post by Num, Dec 2002. Patisambhidamagga. about paññaa that leads out of sankhaara nimitta, bahidda sankhaara nimitta. Nimitta referring to the five khandhas that arise and fall away. Perhaps that is the post you mentioned? Nina. 52743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma in Cambodia, sankharakkhandha. nilovg Hi Azita, I send you the link now, separately, not touching it. When you open it you chose a Ch and click, then it will take time to download, some take ten or more minutes. It starts by itself and you can stop it by pressing on the left button, this you have to try. If you do not have broadband the downloading is too costly. Nina. 52744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) nilovg Hi Ken, thank you for the interesting summary. I choose only one point now. op 23-11-2005 03:33 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowa@...: > One point not resolved to everyone's satisfaction involved the > Bhikkhuni Sutta where it referred to craving and conceit [for the > idea of becoming an arahant]. The sutta asks something like; "Is > this craving wholesome or unwholesome?" "It is unwholesome." "Is it > to be pursued or not to be pursued?" "It is to be pursued." ------- N: Years ago we had some discussions about this. Rob K referred to the Guide, Netti, p. 121, about craving and conceit that is to be pursued. Sarah and I also wrote about it, but I cannot trace it now. Netti: True, akusala can condition kusala by way of natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). I went to M III, 218, about sorrow connected with renunciation and looked at the co. in Thai. This gives an example of MahaaSivaka who cried, having sorrow conditioned by desire (lobha) for arahatship. But he attained arahatship. I cannot translate all now. ****** K: At another time we were reading from my new copy of "A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas." > This caused me to reminisce over a debate I had had with a very > knowledgeable, former DSG member (going by the name of Nutcracker > (?)). Loosely quoting K Sujin, I had said that the Buddha taught > satipatthana, 'and every word of his teaching should be understood in > terms of satipatthana.' Nutcracker thought this was ridiculous, and > argued that satipatthana was just one of many things taught by the > Buddha. ------ N: Yes, he is very talented. Some people mean by satipatthana quite something else. Not knowing that developing satipatthana, developing vipassana, developing the eightfold Path amounts to the same: right understanding of what appears now. Just this nama or rupa that appears. ------ K: Another of our conversations related to a commentary recently quoted > on DSG (by Nina or Sarah?), which surprisingly went unremarked upon. > The commentary said that a monk should take a "notepad" from his > satchel and write down his thoughts about the Buddha. It also > referred to a his counting "matches." How ancient could a commentary > be if it mentioned notepads and matches? ------ N: Yes, the Removal of Unwholesome Thoughts. I came across a post by Sarah that may explain this: < Sarah: > With regard to the commentaries (as we read them)., Malalasekera in ‘The Pali Literature of Ceylon’ suggests they were: “not compiled in the modern sense of the word...so that, when Buddhaghosa mentions, in the opening stanzas of the ‘Sumgangala-vilaasinii’, that the commentary to the Digha-Nikaya was at the first council rehearsed by 500 holy Elders, we may assume that he means, that at this meeting the ‘meanings’ to be attached to the various terms - particularly to those that appear to have been borrowed from Hindu philosophy - were discussed and properly defined....Such definitions and fixations of meaning formed the nucleus of the later commentaries. The Elders had discussed the important terms at the First Council, and had decided on the method of interpreting and teaching the more recondite doctrines.> Matches and notepad are not paramattha dhammas. ...... K: We talked about K Sujin's personal history, and we wondered if it was > only she (and her students) who understood Dhamma-practice to be free > of "formal meditation." Are we really that alone? Is it true that all > other modern-day authorities (Bhikkhu Bodhi etc.) regard the > Abhidhamma as a later addition to the original texts? _- N: In India we visited different Thai temples and in two of them the Abbots highly praised Kh Sujin, listen to her regularly. One Abbot gave her a blessing: Where would we be without her, how could we understand the Dhamma without her, he said. As to the Abhidhamma, this really depends on the development of understanding of paramattha dhammas. Only thus can one find out about the truth contained in the Abhidhamma. It is not so useful to ask: who does and who does not. Nina. 52745 From: nina Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 2 nilovg Dear friends, Jonothan: Knowing the characteristic of hardness when it appears and knowing its arising and falling away is not the same. Is that correct? Sujin: There must be different levels of pannå that realizes these matters. The paññå of the beginning level does not penetrate the arising and falling away of realities. In the beginning people have only theoretical knowledge of the elements of nåma and rúpa, stemming from listening to the Dhamma, but they do not realize the characteristics of nåma and rúpa; they do not realize them as elements, dhåtus. At this moment there are nåma and rúpa, but their characteristics do not appear, they do not appear as elements. There are several levels of insight knowledege, and insight has to be developed stage by stage. It is impossible to realize the arising and falling away of realities immediately, before the preceding stages have been reached. We can know, when someone tries to ³watch² nåma and rúpa in order to realize their arising and falling away, and pretends that he has realized this, that he is on the wrong way. Phannipa: Do some people believe that this is the right development of satipatthåna? In reality this is wrong understanding. Sujin: Generally people use the term sati, but they do not know the characteristic of sati. They use the word paññå without knowing what paññå is. They say that they want to control paññå, but where is paññå? Phannipa: People who study by themselves erroneously believe that satipatthåna has arisen already, but that is wrong understanding, different from right understanding based on listening. Sujin: Therefore, people should listen to the Dhamma and consider carefully what they have heard so that they will understand it. For example, sati is not samådhi, concentration, but people follow the wrong way because they take samådhi for sati. Samådhi is the reality that concentrates on one object, but sati is not samådhi. Sati is a sobhana sådhårana cetasika (general, common to sobhana); it accompanies only sobhana cittas, and it accompanies each sobhana citta. Sati accompanies each level of kusala, be it of the level of dåna, síla, samatha or vipassanå. There is satipatthåna when someone is aware of the characteristics of realities as they are naturally appearing at this moment. This kind of understanding stems from listening to the Dhamma. Before one listened to the Dhamma one could not be aware of the characteristics of realities. When someone has listened and understood what he heard, he can be aware of the characteristics of realities. Gradually he can begin to understand the characteristics of realities which are of two different kinds: nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma. There is, for example, seeing at this moment. Seeing is the reality that experiences, seeing does not have any shape or form; seeing sees what is appearing through the eyes. ***** Nina. 52746 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 1. nilovg Hi MIke, op 23-11-2005 20:04 schreef m. nease op mlnease@...: > Subject: [dsg] Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 1. > >> Question: Someone said that he thought of hardness, but this is a term. >> You >> said that this kind of thinking is better than thinking of other things. > >> Sujin: Thinking of citta, cetasika and rúpa is better than thinking of >> other >> things. -------- M: Is this kind of thinking yonisomanasikaara? Is it also pa.tipatti? -------- N: If it is reflecting on the dhamma it is kusala, but, one may also think with desire: when will I become enlightened? When we have many discussions on nama and rupa, like in India, it is natural that citta thinks and reflects about them. It happens without trying. But who can control thinking, it runs after pleasant objects. Thinking about Dhamma is not patipatti, but thinking in the right way leads to more understanding and also saññaa can remember what was heard. That kind of saññaa is the proximate cause of sati. Saññaa can also remember to keep on developing satipatthana even in the midst of the greatest confusion. Nina. 52747 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:22pm Subject: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Well, Amr let me out of my agreement one week early for good > > behavior. ;-)) > > Hallo James, > > Well, I missed you too on DSG James: Thank you so much for the sweet e-mail and the sweet welcome! It really does my heart good. > To me no internet will be a greater renunciation then no sex, but I'm > an old man so that's no so difficult James: LOL! Yeah, sexual desire is one of the hardest things to renunciate. (and, btw, you often mention this so maybe you aren't as free from this desire as you think?? There may be some snow on the roof but there could be some fire yet in the furnace? ;-)) Anyway, this desire is so tied into our existence at this moment in time and into our desire for becoming- for all of us. However, it is just another desire like all of the others...it is nothing special. Some get so attracted to this desire for sex that it becomes their whole being. And as a consequence they feel remorseful- and then then they fell full of desire again for sex- and then they feel remorseful again- etc, etc. etc.. (it is quite a racket for confessional priests! ;-)). First, my input, slow down. Look at what's going on. Realize that it is just another desire: and desire takes many forms. So then the desire may be for skin-on-skin contact...groaning and moaning ecstacy...nasty and dirty satisfaction!! Ahhh...Ahhhh...Ahhhhhhhhhhhh... Hmmm...what the heck is all that about??? That is just desire with a lot of mental proliferation attached to it! Eating a chocolate cake and having the best sex of your life are exactly the same in experience- it is just the mental proliferation which makes them different. Begin to distance yourself from the base, animal-instinct driven, rudimentary aspects of your thinking and you will go very far. (BTW, I am not addressing you specifically Joop, as much as everyone in general). . It is a self-perpetuatuating > Impossible te recap what has been happening after you left and the > India-goers are back on their posts. James: Yes, I see that everyone is back safe and sound. That makes me happy. > One ebook about vipassana-samatha I like much (and others things of > him too): Ven. Sujato, "A history of mindfulnes" > www.santiforestmonastery.com/writings.php) James: Yes, I read that during my break; and some other writings by Ven. Sujato. Anyone in prison gets lots of contraband sneaked in! ;- )) (don't ask) I have some weighty comments but I will save them until later. But thanks for linking me to this very important and crucial thinker for our times. > > So: do it quiet, without annoying yourself James: Yes. Very good point: I do annoy myself- no one else is responsible for my annoyance. It falls completely on my shoulders. I will try to remember. If I forget and get a little out-of-hand in the future, feel free to pop in and set me straight. Thanks Joop! > > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James 52748 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi All upasaka_howard Hi, James - Welcome back! :-) In a message dated 11/23/05 10:12:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > But, maybe it is a > good addiction, like this good addiction described by the Buddha: > > "In the time of the Buddha there were some ascetics from other sects > who criticized the Buddha and his disciples for indulging in the > pleasure of meditation. The Buddha answered: 'There are these four > kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are entirely conducive to > disenchantment, to the fading away of passion, to cessation, to > tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbána. What are > they? [The Buddha then gives the stock definition of the four > jhánas.] So if wanderers from other sects should say that the > followers of the Sakyan are addicted to these four forms of pleasure- > seeking, they should be told: ´Yes´, for they would be speaking > correctly about you, they would not be slandering you with false or > untrue statements. 'Then such wanderers might ask: ´Well then, those > who are given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking--how many > fruits, how many benefits can they expect? ´ and you should reply: > ´They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they? The > first is when a monk by the destruction of three fetters has become > a Stream-Winner (sotapana, the first stage of enlightment), no more > subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for > full enlightenment; the second is when a monk by the complete > destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and > delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more > to this world, will put an end to suffering; the third is when a > monk, by the complete destruction of the five lower fetters, has > been spontaneously reborn, and there will reach Nibbána without > returning from that world. The fourth is when a monk, by the > destruction of the mental poisons has, in this very life, by his own > knowledge and realization, attained to Arahantship, to the > liberation of heart through wisdom. Such are the four fruits and the > four benefits that one given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking > can expect." > DN 29.24,25 > ======================== Wow! What a find! Thank you for posting this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52749 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, sila. philofillet Hi Nina > N: Good. I hope you share your sutta reading with us, very useful. Reading suttas is a tricky business. Obviously they contain the purest expression of the Buddha's wisdom that we can find, but we are not reading with the Buddha's wisdom, or anything vaguely resembling the Buddha's wisdom. We read suttas with so much lobha, and there are so many suttas that we can all find suttas that say what we want to believe. Nevertheless, aware of that danger, I continue reading and reflecting on suttas every morning. I like something Sukin said the other day. We should try to express our understanding of suttas in our own words rather than plunking down links or long passages to prove a point. It proves nothing, because the understanding described in suttas is not our own. As for suttas that have impressed me and/or fed lobha these days, there is SN 35:152, "For What Purpose the Holiy Life" as B.Bodhi translates the title. What a wonderful, stirring sutta. The Buddha tells his audience of bhikkhus that if they are asked for what purpose they live the holy life under the ascetic Gotama, they should answer that it is for the "full understanding of suffering." And if they are then asked what this suffering for the full understanding of which they live the holy life, their answer is not the description of the first noble truth phrased in the conventional language of growing old, getting sick, dying, being separated from the loved etc. It is expressed in very paramattha terms: "The eye friends, is suffering: it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. Forms are suffering: it is for the full understanding of them that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. Eye consciousness is suffering...Eye-contact is suffering...whatever feeling arises with eye contact as condition is suffering..." and so on for the other 5 sense bases. "Is there seeing now?" This is what A. Sujin asks. All the stories and debates we get caught up in about this and that practice are sand castles to be scattered. It is only by understanding paramattha dhammas that we live the Holy Life as defined by the Buddha in this sutta. It has conditioned a desire to persevere patiently with my study of paramattha dhammas. Of course, 10 different people could quote 10 different suttas to give 10 different opinions about what the Buddah said was our most urgent task. Suttas are very tricky and can condition a lot of greed and ignorance, ironically, if we don't approach them with remembrance of how far we are from the Buddha and his disciples, in my opinion. >I liked > your post on feelings very much. Thanks. I went back and looked at it. I had completely forgotten about writing it. It was pretty good, wasn't it? > About turning left or right, I think that when there is a little more > understanding of citta, its conditions, the way kusala and akusala are > accumulated, one will in a natural way see more the danger (without > aversion) of the latent tendencies. One will come to understand more that > they can condition akusala in an unforeseeable way, at any time. Panna works its way, as A. Sujin says. That is true, or it isn't true - there's nothing we can do about it. The development of panna is very much beyond our control. (snip) > Sila is not only refraining from unwholesome actions and speech, it is also > the performing of wholesome actions and speech, such as showing respect or > helping others. I think it was Dag Hammerskjold who said "you cannot be saved by a 'thou shalt not', only by a 'thou shalt.'" I like listening to the perfections because I always feel stirred to take action in a wholesome way, especially the virya section. Maybe that is conditioned by thinking that it is Lodewijk that is reading it - I know he places a lot of emphasis on what we can do to help others, etc. I think it must be great to have that influence around every day. And you can help him to better understand that there are so many conditions at work when we think of helping others. What a team!!! Phil 52750 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:23pm Subject: Re: Hi All philofillet Hi James > Well, Amr let me out of my agreement one week early for good > behavior. ;-)) Welcome back. I think it's great that you kept your promise to Amr. Phil 52751 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > ====================== > Robert, you wrote "The way to understand life and Dhamma is to learn > what is real and what is concept," and I agree that this is an essential > element of coming to understand life and the Dhamma. But it is just an element, IMO. > > It seemjs to me that one must also come to see that the actual dhammas > themselves lack self-existence, being merely conditioned phenomena that, in > utter dependence, briefly arise and cease, not remaining, never being sources > of true or lasting satisfaction. Seeing that even what is "real" consists of > ungraspable, unrewarding will 'o the wisps leads to loss of taste for these > actual but ghostlike phenomena and leads to loss of enthrallment to them, and it > is that disgust and disenchantment at the finest and deepest levels that I > believe leads onwards to freedom. > > ++++++++++++ Dear Howard, If one doesn't know very correctly what is concept and what is reality then whatever ideas one has about Dhamma will be confused. So one has to start where they are- at the beginning- not try to rush ahead, otherwise things will get more confused, someone might think he has a stage of vipassana or even become sotapanna. Then there has to be defining of nama and rupa- something only very subtle wisdom can know. Something that devlops gradually but occurs very briefly. That is not to say that reflecting on how all realities are "ungraspable, unrewarding will 'o the wisps" isn't useful, it can be provided that it is know as only conceptual thinking. The thinking process can be known as nama too. Robertk 52752 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Waiting patiently for the Cooran reports:-) kenhowardau Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. ----------------------- . . . KH: > > "Is > this craving wholesome or unwholesome?" "It is unwholesome." "Is it > to be pursued or not to be pursued?" "It is to be pursued." ....... N: Years ago we had some discussions about this. Rob K referred to the Guide, Netti, p. 121, about craving and conceit that is to be pursued. Sarah and I also wrote about it, but I cannot trace it now. ---------------------------- We discussed it again while you were in India. I think Sarah gave virtually the same explanation you have given: ----------------------------------------------- N: > Netti: True, akusala can condition kusala by way of natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). ----------------------------------------------- Yes, although I assume the same mana cetasika can potentially condition more akusala. I am sure that craving and conceit, when they are connected with the idea of becoming an arahant, have the same potential to condition further akusala as they have when their objects are less worthy. ----------------------- N: Yes, the Removal of Unwholesome Thoughts. I came across a post by Sarah that may explain this: < Sarah: > With regard to the commentaries (as we read them). ------------------------- I don't remember seeing that post by Sarah. Thanks for the recap. ----------------------- N: > It is not so useful to ask: who does and who does not. ------------ That is unless, by natural strong dependence condition, it leads to something that is useful. :-) Ken H 52753 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reasons for staying on DSG! (was:Reasons for leaving DSG) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (& Andrew), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Should any bhikkhu, malicious, angered, displeased, charge a > > (fellow) bhikkhu with an unfounded case involving defeat, > > (thinking), "Surely with this I may bring about his fall from the > > celibate life," then regardless of whether or not he is cross- > > examined on a later occasion, if the issue is unfounded and the > > bhikkhu confesses his anger, it entails initial and subsequent > > meetings of the Community. > .... > S: Should = IF. If X happens, then Y will be the result > ..... James: Yes. > > > > Should any bhikkhu, malicious, angered, displeased, using as a mere > > ploy an aspect of an issue that pertains otherwise, charge a bhikkhu > > with a case involving defeat, (thinking), "Surely with this I may > > bring about his fall from the celibate life," then regardless of > > whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, if the > > issue pertains otherwise, an aspect used as a mere ploy, and the > > bhikkhu confesses his anger, it entails initial and subsequent > > meetings of the Community. > .... > S: IF X happens... > .... > > Should any bhikkhu agitate for a schism in a Community in concord, > > or should he persist in taking up an issue conducive to schism, the > > bhikkhus should admonish him thus: "Do not, Ven. sir, agitate for a > > schism in a Community in concord or persist in taking up an issue > > conducive to schism. Let the venerable one be reconciled with the > > Community, for a Community in concord, on complimentary terms, free > > from dispute, having a common recitation, dwells in peace." > > > > And should those bhikkhus, thus admonished, persist as before, the > > bhikkhus are to rebuke them up to three times so as to desist. If > > while being rebuked up to three times by the bhikkhus they desist, > > that is good. If they do not desist, it entails initial and > > subsequent meetings of the Community. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/vinaya/bhikkhu-pati.html#1 > ... > S: Again, if X occurs. No one would suggest that the bhikkhu should, i.e > ought to pursue such unwholesome deeds. A simple statement of conditions. > ... James: This is not just a simple statement of conditions: like when you throw a ball into the air, it will come down to the ground. That is a statement of the condition of gravity. The Vinaya is not like that. The Vinaya was taught by the Buddha to influence correct behavior. > > James: I have just selected a few translations from the Vinaya > > Pitaka (spoken by the Lord Buddha) and so far I have counted > > six `should's. That sounds like the Buddha taught controllable > > actions to me. ;-)) > ... > S: The Buddha is indicating what is unacceptable and what the results of > such actions will be, like a parent would a child. James: Okay, so far we seem to be on the same page. > > In truth, whether or not the parent, child or bhikkhu understands it or > not, there is no person, no being, no control over any dhammas in an > ultimate sense. Merely conditioned and fleeting namas and rupas. James: Now, here is where we diverge. Sarah, you are mixing up conventional reality and ultimate reality again, and the result is a mixed-up mess! ;-)) No where in the Vinaya does the Buddha say, "I am giving you these instructions but I know that ultimately you are all just nama and rupa...so just go about your business and let's hope for the best." Such metaphysical posturings are not in keeping with the Buddha's pragmatic approach. > > More to reflect on during the coming month:). > > Yes, let's consider all three baskets of the Tipitaka 'to really > understand the Buddha's message' as you suggest. They all have to be in > conformity with each other. James: Yes, we must consider all three baskets of the Tipitaka-all at once- or the meaning of the Buddha's message is lost. Unfortunately, in this post, you have presented the Vinaya through the looking glass of the Abhidhamma and have lost its meaning. You are not balancing the meaning from the suttas, the Abhidhamma, and the Vinaya- you are weighing more heavily the meaning from the Abhidhamma. I like this quote by F. Scott Fitzgerald and I think it applies here, "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James 52754 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:49pm Subject: Photos (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG)) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > And Phil, you've mentioned your little 'drama queen' episode:) I wasn't > going to bother to show Nina that letter I replied to. Yes, Lodewijk will > have to wait a month to hear from James if he and Amr stick to the deal, > but that will give Nina time to attend to the laundry and the > Visuddhimagga without any dramas perhaps (or perhaps not)! As she says, we > never, never know what may happen though. Lodewijk is waiting to hear from me? About what? Alas, I hope that my participation won't automatically result in dramas occuring. But- --constant peace and tranquility can lead to complacency. Metta, James 52755 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:57pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 318- Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) [l] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================= [Ch19 - Envy(issaa),Stinginess(macchariya),Regret(kukkucca)contd] We should find out why we are stingy. We do not want to give things away because we fear that our possessions will decrease, but then we are likely to suffer from the very things we are afraid of. The experience of objects through the senses is vipåka, the result of kamma. We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Chapter I, The Devas, Part 4, §2, Avarice) that devas of the Satullapa group came to see the Buddha and spoke to him about avarice and generosity. One among them said: * "… That which the miser dreads, and hence gives not, To him not giving just that danger it is: Hunger and thirst— for this the thing he dreads— Just this the doom that does befall the fool In this and also in some other world. Hence should he avarice suppress, and make Offerings of charity, mastering the taint. Sure platform in some other future world Rewards of virtue on good beings wait." * The five kinds of avarice can motivate akusala kamma which is capable of producing an unhappy rebirth or akusala vipåka in the course of one’s life: one may have to endure hardship, poverty, disease and dishonour. The Atthasåliní, in the section about meanness (375) speaks about the unpleasant results produced by the five kinds of stinginess and states about the results of stinginess with regard to praise and to Dhamma: * "… one who extols his own praises and not those of others; who mentions this and that fault of anyone saying, “What praise does he deserve?” and does not impart any doctrine of learning to him, becomes ugly, or has a mouth dripping with saliva…" * The person who has a mouth dripping with saliva cannot speak in a pleasant way and is ugly to look at, therefore people do not like to listen to him. Further on the Atthasåliní states that the result of stinginess with regard to praise can also be that one is born without beauty or reputation. Owing to stinginess with regard to Dhamma one may also be reborn in one of the hell planes, the “hot-ash hell”. ***** [Envy(issaa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca)to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 52756 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: Contemplating emptiness with or without formal meditation buddhatrue Hi Matheesha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi joop, > > >J: This week I have been reading the Cula-suññata Sutta (MN 121). In > > most Suttas about jhana the Buddha explicit uses the term 'jhana'. > > But not in this one. > > > > So my question is: > > Is this Sutta about 'contemplating' emptiness, that is reading and > > thinking about the text again and again, being in a (daily life) > > state and in this way understanding emptiness better and better? > > Or is the Buddha describing formal meditation, especially jhanic one, > > reaching "the base of nothingness"? > > M: Yes, it is interesting that he doesnt use the word jhana. Equally > interesting that he speaks of moving from the earth kasina to arupa > (jhana) directly, bypassing the rupa jhanas. I believe that this is > possible. James: I believe that this is possible also. Therefore, I have argued that the Buddha, before his enlightenment, while still a bodhisatta, hadn't practiced the four jhanas with his previous teachers. He learned how to attain the immaterial jhanas directly without going through the four jhanas first. However, that argument sent Htoo into a tizzy! ;-)) Do you have any textual support for your belief which corresponds with mine? I couldn't find any. I think he is talking of the jhanas because the immaterial > (arupa) jhanas are mentioned in order, and also because he speaks of > animitta (signless) concentration ('without a theme'). > > He seems to be speaking of the mind of an arahath at the end and the > emptiness he enjoys. Gave me goosebumps! James: Matheesha, I have been reading in past posts that you have achieved jhana. Congratulations!! You write that it is no big deal, but it is a big deal really. To achieve jhana means that the other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are in place because jhana is the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path. You are much closer to enlightenment than those who haven't achieved jhana. It was quite brave of you to reveal this aspect of your personal practice because I'm sure that you will get some jealous and spiteful reactions. Personally, I don't think I have achieved jhana yet, but when I do I doubt that I will announce it in this group. Several members of DSG are very anti-jhana, which is unfortunate I think. > > metta > > Matheesha > Metta, James 52757 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi smallchap, > > op 17-11-2005 16:02 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > So until I attain jhana, I wouldn't be able to give a satisfactory > > answer to your question. > ------ > N: That is a good answer. > ----------- > s: It is like asking, why you need to be a monk? I have been a > > temporary monk before, 7 times in all. And I can answer in > > confidence, it is not the question of need. > ------- > N:Oh, that must have been very difficult fo you. > You must have accumulations for monkhood, stemming from former lives. But as > I understand, these days it is very hard to find a monastery where perfect > Vinaya is kept. > The late Ven. Dhammadharo had great difficulties and also James could not > find a suitable place. James: Yes, I went to Wat Pah Nanachat in Thailand thinking I was going to the best forest monastery in the world. Instead I found carelessness for the enviroment, monks with huge egos, back-biting, and a complete loss of personal freedom (I was told that I couldn't have access to my computer, e-mail anyone, or leave the monastery without permission for a minimum of five years! Excuse me??) I got out of that nut house after only three days! I was very, very depressed afterward: a spiritual depression. BTW, for those interested, this monastery in Australia could be a good one for ordaining: http://www.santiforestmonastery.com/home.php I am not considering it because my parents won't give me permission to try out any more monasteries (and you need your parent's permission). Just as well- I think I am too independent to become a monk. > ------ > S: I am really in no position to say if I need to have jhana. > > > On a personal level, as of now I don't think I need to have jhana > > but if I can attain jhana without neglecting my vipassana, why not? > -------- > N: This sounds sensible. Those in the Buddha's time who had accumulated > skill for jhana found it a support for vipassana. But, as I said to > Matheesha, for me jhana is only theory. > As Sukin said, we all have different inclinations and will follow those > anyway. Whatever practice one takes to has been conditioned already. > --------- > M: If my teacher were to say to me now: "smallchap, I will teach you > > jhana." I would gladly learn it. > ------ > N: I feel that here might be a problem. How do we know that the teacher > teaches the real jhana? There can be different supranormal or mystical > experiences as a result of concentration, but these may not be the real > jhana and they may result from concentration with attachment. > I also think of Christian mystics, like Theresa of Avila and others. They > had visions and this is quite possible. > I feel concern, because a jhana teacher was on several lists and then I > heard that he had suicidal inclinations. So I think that one has to be very > careful with jhana practice. James: Nina, I am surprised at you! This is just idle gossip! "I heard that he had suicidal inclinations", unless he told you himself you don't know for sure. And this gossip seems to be very anti- jhana. Lobha is bound to play us tricks all the time. > Extraordinary experiences can lead to mental disturbance. > Perhaps there is a way to check one's cittas. Jhana must lead to detachment > to sense pleasures. Does one truly want to lead a life free from sense > pleaures, such as music, nice food, the confort of one's home, the company > of friends? In the last instance one has to verify the truth for oneself. > ***** > Nina. > Metta, James 52758 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:23am Subject: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Phil and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > Well, Amr let me out of my agreement one week early for good > > behavior. ;-)) > > Welcome back. I think it's great that you kept your promise to Amr. > > Phil > Thanks for the welcome back. Metta, James 52759 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta, Cinta and Bhavana maya panna sarahprocter... Hi Alan McA, I wrote a post to you yesterday which got lost, so this is a briefer re-post. (btw, thanks for the Alan McA sign-off – I remembered after writing before that we have an Alan McC, so the extra ‘A’ helps:-)). --- Alan McAllister wrote: > Sarah, > > The quote seems to make the point that meditating on any of the > objects from the six sense doors gets you to the same insight of > anatta. That seems reasonable. ... S: Would you clarify what you mean by the above. I see a distinction in meaning between any focusing or meditating on any objects and being aware of such objects when they appear without any special attention. I’d be glad to hear your thoughts. .... > What I objected to in the Goenka > approach was that he priviledged bodily sensations, what he calls, > Vedana, and that he appears to claim that his approach is the > "in-depth" way of meditating whereas other ways of meditating deal > only with the surface. The quote* contradicts this claim. .... S: Yes, I think that when there’s any selection of any particular objects, it is not going to be the development of satipatthana. I also think it’s very important to distinguish between rupas of any kind (not just tangible objects) and namas such as feelings. In another post or two (eg #52545) you refer to thoughts as sense objects which can be the objects of meditation in vipassana. Would you clarify what you mean by thoughts. Also, I’m not sure if we have the same ideas on vipassana. Rather than re-writing my lost post, would you care to look at messages under ‘vipassana’ in ‘Useful Posts’ and share any further comments? Having said all this, I do understand what you’re saying I think. I also started off in the Mahasi tradition (and also have a background in psychology, so was very interested to read your intro, thanks). I also questioned the comments others made about seeing the impermanence ‘in just one thing’ and then applying this knowledge to all other realities. As I understand, such an approach does not lead to any detachment or understanding of anatta or impermanence. First, namas and rupas have to be clearly known and distinguished over and over and over again. Any direct understanding of impermanence of dhammas is a high level of wisdom, quite different from our experience of changing sensations in our bodies. Looking forward to any more of your reflections or threads, Alan. Metta, Sarah ======= *> >S "When the understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa grows, no matter whether they appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body or the mind-door, one will gradually cling less to the wrong view of self. Insight knowledge that clearly realizes dhammas as they are, knows the truth because panna leads to detachment from the wrong view of self." 52760 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lily picture sarahprocter... Hi Htoo (& James), --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Jon ( & Sarah ), > > Very beautiful picture. First dry. Now DSG becomes much much more > lively. .... S: Thanks Htoo & James for your kind comments. It's good to see you both around. .... > > Flowers. They blossom. They dry up. They change to dirt. Impermanence. > Anicca. No essence in such ever vanishing stuff and it is > unsatisfactory. No one can fix not to vanish. Uncontrollable. Anatta. > > What a good picture! > > Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! .... S: Thx for your good reminders too. Everyone would select a different picture of course, but this reminds us of all the lakes of lotus flowers like these en route to some of the Holy Places in India such as Kusinara, Savatthi and Lumbini.....probably much like in the Buddha's time. Here's the longer quote: ***** "Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses might be born in the water, grow up in the water, and thrive while submerged in the water, without rising up from the water, and stand at an even level with the water; some lotuses might be born in the water and grow in the water, but would rise up from the water and stand without being soiled by the water – so too, surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach, and a few who dwelt seeing blame and fear in the other world.” SN6:560 ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Our thanks to Ven Samahita for helping to provide the photo too ========================== 52761 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] right and wrong practice. mr39515 Dear Nina, Sarah and All Hi there... I wanted to reply to this earlier but do not know how to put it in words. After deep thoughts, I think I should start with" All actions we do are either Good/Bad and Right/Wrong. Most of the time we do Good deeds but those deeds may not be Right. Jhana thru samatha meditation is good. In fact, it is classified as Mahakusala but it is NOT Right. I think it came back to the question "what am I here for?". We are Buddhist and I believe Buddhist objective is to 1. Learn the Truth (The 4 Noble Truth), 2. To Understand the world is such as Anicca, Dukha, Anata 3. To Understand the law of depandant origination 4. If possible to learn The Abhidhamma. I reviewed the 4 Noble Truth and specially on the 8 fold path, and I believe the 8 Rights do not specified Samatha Meditation. There is Rigth Mindfulness which has the 4 Station of mindfulness which will lead to Right Concentration. We seek in-sight or wisdom rather than calmness or Jhana. We learn and practice the 4 Noble Truth and walk the path of the 8 folds path. We take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. And if we follow all this, we can proudly call ourself "The Protector of Sanana". And thru our every kusala deeds, we dare to make wishes that the actions we did will conditions us to attain Enlightenment, to continue be a Protector of Sanana from this life until our final birth. Only then we are worthly of people chearing Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu (excellent x3) So again, why do we need Jhana....?? Metta mr39515 Note: there is a lot of I and you and selfhood in this mail cause it is meant for lay people and lay people in practice just like me. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > K.S. II, §3: The Way. Transl of patipada, practice. > Here D.O. is taught. > When compared to the way leading out of samsara, > even kusala including jhana > is wrong practice. > The Co: even the five abhiññas [the mundane] and the > eight attainments [N: > of jhana] are miccha-pa.tipada under this aspect. > B.B. p. 536. He does not mention this Co. > Nina. > op 17-11-2005 09:29 schreef sarah abbott op > sarahprocterabbott@...: > > > I meant to ask you which sutta you were referring > to ages ago when > > you mentioned that ‘jhaana is called wrong > practice’. <....> 52762 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: Hi All jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > Dear James James: "Yeah, sexual desire is one of the hardest things to renunciate. (and, btw, you often mention this so maybe you aren't as free from this desire as you think?? There may be some snow on the roof but there could be some fire yet in the furnace? ) Joop: You are right; I have those desires, thanks for the mirror. But the precept, for a monk permanently and for a layperson during a retreat, is not to have no desires but to be not sexual active. What I wanted to say that everybody has a hierarchy of things that are difficult to renunciate; there is not one hierarchy with 'sexual desire' on the top; it can be different for different persons. There are moments that I have considered to get a monk and tried to know what should be the most difficult of that path. My conclusion till now: most difficult for me should be the being homeless: no save house, no guaranteed retirement-income. (And no-internet should have been difficult if that's against the precepts but I experience so many computer-active monks that that isn't a problem) Something else. I didn't realize that you do samatha-meditation. For some reasons I thought all Theravadins who meditate, are doing vipassana (insight-) meditation, like I do. The last months more and more, and for example after reading Ven Sujato, I think the combination vipassana and samatha is better. But I only know vipassana teachters (Mahasi style) and I hesitate doing samatha without guidance in te beginning (Well in fact I already do, but superficial: walking meditation, breathing-concentration before I start vipassana, metta-meditation) Metta Joop 52763 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Howard, > If one doesn't know very correctly what is concept and what is > reality then whatever ideas one has about Dhamma will be confused. > So one has to start where they are- at the beginning- not try to > rush ahead, otherwise things will get more confused, someone might > think he has a stage of vipassana or even become sotapanna. > Then there has to be defining of nama and rupa- something only very > subtle wisdom can know. Something that devlops gradually but occurs > very briefly. > That is not to say that reflecting on how all realities > are "ungraspable, unrewarding will 'o the wisps" isn't useful, it > can be provided that it is know as only conceptual thinking. The > thinking process can be known as nama too. > Robertk > Hallo Robertk, Howard, all Robert, you are not the first one who states distinguishing nama and rupa is very subtle. (Sukin did to me too). That surprises me. What is rupa (experienced material quality is the best translation, I think) is not so difficult at all. The same for nama as mental experience. Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was nama but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact rupa; or was a mix of nama and rupa? Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was rupa but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact nama; or was a mix of nama and rupa? The same questions about the distinguishing concept and reality; in fact I think that you formulated this to short. Better is it to say: A conceptual description of the reality versus a ultimate description (or: a description in ultimate language) of the reality. Do you agree with this? Metta Joop BTW No misunderstanding, not everything is easy. 'Paticcasamuppada' for example isn't. 52764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Dhamma in Cambodia, sila. nilovg Hi Phil, what a lovely post. I print it out to discuss it with Lodewijk this weekend when we are away. op 24-11-2005 04:20 schreef Phil op philco777@...:> > As for suttas that have impressed me and/or fed lobha these days, > there is SN 35:152, "For What Purpose the Holy Life" as B.Bodhi > translates the title. ------- PH: I think it was Dag Hammerskjold who said "you cannot be saved by a 'thou shalt not', only by a 'thou shalt.' ------ N: Lodewijk will like that, he admires Dag Hammerskjold like you. He was close to Buddhism. Nina. 52765 From: nina Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:06am Subject: alone nilovg Hi Ken, the other day you asked: K: We talked about K Sujin's personal history, and we wondered if it was > only she (and her students) who understood Dhamma-practice to be free > of "formal meditation." Are we really that alone? Is it true that all > other modern-day authorities (Bhikkhu Bodhi etc.) regard the > Abhidhamma as a later addition to the original texts? ------ N: I just thought that there is another way of answering this question, applying what I heard in India. We may think of many people, but in the ultimate sense we are alone. When we are wondering, how many people follow this or that it is just thinking of people. Seeing is truly alone, it sees visible object. Saññaa remembers persons, that is thinking. I remember a sutta where someone asks the Buddha about how many people are liberated. As far as I remember he answers that he teaches dukkha, its arising, its ceasing and the way leading to its ceasing. I am not sure about the exact quote. Nina. 52766 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions Part 20 - .. Mind-door processes. Sumeru Strong jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: How would you develop that kind of knowledge [J: i.e., knowledge of citta, multiple moments of citta, and mind-door processes]? Further, how >advanced would that "kind of knowledge" be, before it may lead >you "to contemplate a form of practice designed to engender kusala >so that awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising" ? >Why do you believe that would be a mistake?? > Thanks for the questions. I'll do my best to answer. T: How would you develop that kind of knowledge [knowledge of citta, multiple moments of citta, and mind-door processes]? J: I may not have made myself clear. I should perhaps have used the term 'information' rather than 'knowledge'. I was not talking about a level of panna, but about just having heard this aspect of the teachings (and not rejecting it). I do not think it possible for me/us to verify such fine details by direct knowledge, but we can at least consider whether what we have heard is consistent with our experience. T: Further, how advanced would that "kind of knowledge" be, before it may lead you "to contemplate a form of practice designed to engender kusala so that awareness/insight would have a better chance of arising" ? Why do you believe that would be a mistake? J: If we have not heard about the possibility of multiple moments of kusala and akusala citta interspersed with each other, we may think or assume that the only way for awareness/insight to arise would be to have kusala first, meaning that we should do something to calm the mind so as to increase the chance of having awareness/insight. This I believe would be a kind of wrong practice. This is the 'mistake' I was referring to. >>Jon: >>You say: If such knowledge is not helping you in eradicating anusaya, then what is the use of it? If you are asking whether there are immediate results to be seen, the answer is 'No'. But that is not, in my view, of any concern. >> > >Tep: But is there any hope when there is no concern? > >... > > As I see it, hope for immediate results is a problem; no such hope is not a problem -;)). Jon 52767 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" > Hallo Robertk, Howard, all > > Robert, you are not the first one who states distinguishing nama and > rupa is very subtle. (Sukin did to me too). That surprises me. What > is rupa (experienced material quality is the best translation, I > think) is not so difficult at all. The same for nama as mental > experience. > > Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was nama > but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact > rupa; or was a mix of nama and rupa? > Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was rupa > but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact > nama; or was a mix of nama and rupa? > > The same questions about the distinguishing concept and reality; in > fact I think that you formulated this to short. Better is it to say: > A conceptual description of the reality versus a ultimate description > (or: a description in ultimate language) of the reality. Do you agree > with this? > > ++++++++++++++++= Dear Joop, Remember that even a moment of satipatthana can only arise during a Buddhasasana(except for pacceka buddhas) - a most rare event. And that defining nama and rupa (namarupapariccheda nana) is an advanced degree of satipatthana - vipassana. When this insight is reached there is no idea of self at all, the world has changed, gone. Now I can fel pressure in my leg, that is the concept, the story, the thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are cittas that experience heat, hardness, vibration. When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it "me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Which elements are mental and which are rupa- are the different elements truly known or is it only the sign they leave behind. As soon as we try to know them already millions of arisings and ceasings have happened. Do we think cittas(moments of consciousness) arise in the brain? John Searle, is a leading Philosopher of mind: He says that when we have a pain in the foot that actually the experience of pain must arise in the brain and it just appears to arise at the foot. And his is even a majority position among scientists!It is not so, but see for yourself. There are levels upon levels of panna (wisdom). When we think about impermanence, for instance, that nothing lasts even for a split second, that every moment is conditioned, this is a level of panna. However it is not the same as direct understanding. Another level is when we consider and see as realities are arising and passing away. So we realize, as it is happening, that dhammas are changing rapidly and that there is no self involved. We see that citta takes sound for an object and the next moment colour and then concept and there is understanding of how uncontrollable it is. Some people imagine this is now direct undstanding of rise and fall but I call this "thinking in the present moment." There is not yet penetration of the visesa-lakkhana, characteristics of nama and rupa. Direct awareness can come in between the moments of thinking or it can come even without such thinking. Until the first stage of vipasssana nana though, the difference between nama and rupa is not properly understood. For vipassana to arise there must be a firm intellectual understanding of anatta and this comes about by considering the teachings carefully and wisely and also by repeated testing and study of dhammas in the present moment. As these levels of understanding develop there is certainly more comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one that reduces self to one moment only. I think if we can learn to see that at a moment of pain in the leg that "we"(by this I mean citta), for that moment arise somewhere in the vicinity of the leg (and no leg in that moment), this helps to break down the idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'we' at a new location at the eyedoor or eardoor. So uncontrollable and temporary. This is understanding at the level of thinking. Robertk 52768 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Joop (and Howard), Joop: Something else. I didn't realize that you do samatha- meditation. For some reasons I thought all Theravadins who meditate, are doing vipassana (insight-) meditation, like I do. James: I was writing to a Buddhist friend about this very issue and this is a part of my e-mail. I might as well just copy it here since it fully answers your question: "I relate this to all the years I wasted practicing Goenka's meditation technique of body sweeping (vipassana). And when I say wasted I mean WASTED! The Buddha didn't teach that technique and it is a complete dead end! It made my mind more agitated than before and made me more fearful and panic stricken (and I even read, and foolishly believed, that this was part of the process!). Consequently, I abruptly stopped my meditation practice and have been slow to begin again ever since. It is only now, now that I realize the critical importance of serenity and tranquility to meditation, that I feel confident to begin serious practice again. For example, today I meditated a total of five times for 30 to 20 minutes each time. I am enthusiastic about meditation practice again and eager to practice every spare chance I get! And I feel happy, confident, and energetic after my meditation- rather than moody and depressed. I am convinced that pure vipassana practice is not the right way to go- for anyone." I used to think so highly of Goenka and practiced his meditation technique for years- but the consequences were not good, as you can read above. My thinking turned around when I joined DSG and started to read the original suttas. Now, and I'm sure Howard won't like me saying this, I don't value Goenka at all and I don't recommend anyone to take a Goenka meditation retreat. There are many other retreats available. I read a very funny description of one person who was thrown out of a Goenka retreat for not following all of the "rules": http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/goenka.htm Not only that, Goenka is a homophobe who won't allow gay men and lesbian women to participate in his retreats. I definitely wouldn't support someone like that!! Joop: But I only know vipassana teachters (Mahasi style) and I hesitate doing samatha without guidance in te beginning James: I also used to think that jhana practice without a teacher is dangerous- because I read that from all the vipassana teachers!! Now, I think that is pure bunk which the Buddha didn't teach. Pure vipassana practice is the dangerous thing. Metta, James 52769 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: Samatha / Vipassana Panna (was Rupa without) sukinderpal Dear Joop, OK, this is the last post. :-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: > My general problem with your message is that is has a "either - or" > character. Sukin: If I were to elaborate in order to avoid making it sound like an "either - or" situation, my posts would be even longer. ;-) As I once said to Christine, I don't go about thinking whether or not I should mediate, the idea does not play any role in my day to day life except when it is discussed on DSG. Even "daily life" is an idea and often placed against the idea of 'formal' practice. But what it really means is to understand whatever that has arisen, regardless of situation, knowing that whatever it be, it has been so by pakatupanissaya paccaya. Hence no need to do anything special. To appreciate the fact that only naturally in daily life can understanding be developed, is to appreciate this important condition, which in fact covers all conditions. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: I think it's possible that both methods are correct: the > method of Sujin, Nina, you and the method of the more discursive > Suttas in which volitional actions are activities. > Applied to 'formal' meditation: I think that insight-meditation plus > mindfulnes in daily life is the best combination. Sukin: Never is it at any time about any "doing", but about "understanding"!! Like I said above, it is not about any decision to "apply" in daily life or anything like that. There is no one who can decide to "practice", patipatti being a conditioned reality and not some activity conditioned by an idea. The duality is not really there as you perceive it, at least not in my mind. You seem to have made up your mind that "insight-meditation" has some place in the Teachings. I think it doesn't, but is an idea developed through time, resulting in what it has become today. What the Dhamma is about is the "development of understanding of conditioned realities". And this is unrelated to any ideas about situations we are in and professional or private lives we live. Indeed when we hear the Dhamma, we will have all sorts of "thoughts" relating any Buddhists ideas with the situation we are in. And because of ignorance and yet strong tendency to wrong view, we will think along the lines of, "this I have to do", "this situation I have to avoid" and so on. We will continually think Dhamma conventionally and apply it to conventional situations, and will continually be faced with false dichotomies and feeling that we have to make `choices'. All this changes however, once we start to understand conditionality and that in reality only namas and rupas exist. So as I said in another post, do what you do `naturally'. If indeed you are drawn to meditation and do it without any idea that this is the " Buddhist practice", then it is as much conducive to the development of satipatthana, as it is for someone else who might be say, `selling flowers'. The moment you think that, "I better meditate than be selling flowers", then wrong view has come in. And it is *this* that I object to, and not any particular activity. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: "Besides the NEP being one of the 4NT, could not be referring > to a series of conventional actions, could it? " > Joop: Oh yes, it can. 'Conventional' language is only a more clumsy > than ultimate language, but can describe the same truth. Sukin: So what is it, are the Truths conventional or ultimate? I am not clear as to what you mean. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: "I can't see much sense in interpreting the different factors > of the NEP as separate actions to take; in fact this seems to > encourage `self view" to some extent." > Joop: here the anxiety for having a self-view gets astronomous > dimensions. > How do you in detail describe "right livelihood" in your terms? Sukin: Anxiety!? No Joop. Read the following description of Right Livelihood: Right livelihood, sammå-åjíva, is the cetasika which abstains from wrong livelihood, micchå-åjíva, namely: the three kinds of unwholesome bodily action and the four kinds of unwholesome speech pertaining to one's livelihood. When one abstains from wrong livelihood, the cetasika which is right livelihood performs the function of abstaining from wrong livelihood. So like everything else Dhamma, this is a reference to a conditioned reality which arises and falls in an instant. Now if one were to understand this to be true, then doesn't the idea that it is about conventional actions appear misleading? And does not that lead to some action taken by `self' in full denial of the Truth? So no anxiety here, what it may sometime in fact be, is a feeling of relief from the burden of holding such a wrong view. :-) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: " It is possible that your understanding of anatta is much > better than my own, but until we have reached the first stage of > enlightenment, don't you think it beneficial to be reminded no matter > how often?" > Joop: No it's not always beneficial, it can get an obsession. And > it's not that my understanding of anatta is much better than yours, > but I have not so much problems with it, as I explained to Sarah some > hours ago (see #52704) Sukin: Are you saying that because someone talks about it often, it reflects an obsession with that? Could it not be for example, that one sees increasingly that `self' comes in many guises and forms, that talking about it and discussing it is in fact to better understand it? There is only one Dhamma which leads one away in a direction that makes it increasingly difficult to understand the Buddha's Teachings, and this is "Wrong View". And Wrong View is conditioned by `self view'. You prefer to discuss anicca; I say this is fine, even I would like to hear more and more about anicca. However, nicca or sukkha does not pose much problem to most Buddhists, as the fact of anicca and dukkha manifests itself in many, many ways, birth, old age, sickness, death and so on. Anatta on the other hand is hard to see (maybe not by you) for most Buddhists, and is so often overlooked because of lack of firm or even correct intellectual understanding. Anicca and Dukkha can be understood to some extent without the Buddha's Teachings, however, to get to the Right View of the Dhamma, Anatta must be correctly understood, or else there won't be any right understanding of any other aspect of the Teachings, including Satipatthana. And this being *the* Buddhist practice, there won't be any development leading to realization. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Sukin: "… no matter where we are, the root of a tree, a meditation > retreat or wherever, we will end up in fact only dealing with our > personal projections. Further, it seems to me that it is precisely > because of this lack of confidence that the mind then proliferates > into "methods" and ideas about "samatha-vipassana" and so on > practices!" > Joop: I agree with this; so there is no problem any more: I try to > meditate without illusions and try to spend the rest of the day > without illusions too. Sukin: Then why meditate at all? What in your opinion is the difference between `meditating' and `not meditating'? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Joop: > Sukin, I propose a 'last round' in our discussion, and you can make > your message as long as you will. Sukin: :-) I think I need a break too. Besides, the computer at my workplace is not in full function. Metta, Sukin. Ps: Would you like a copy of K. Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas"? If so, please write and send me your postal address off-list at sukinder@.... 52770 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/23/05 11:06:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard, > If one doesn't know very correctly what is concept and what is > reality then whatever ideas one has about Dhamma will be confused. > So one has to start where they are- at the beginning- not try to > rush ahead, otherwise things will get more confused, someone might > think he has a stage of vipassana or even become sotapanna. > > Then there has to be defining of nama and rupa- something only very > subtle wisdom can know. Something that devlops gradually but occurs > very briefly. > That is not to say that reflecting on how all realities > are "ungraspable, unrewarding will 'o the wisps" isn't useful, it > can be provided that it is know as only conceptual thinking. The > thinking process can be known as nama too. > Robertk > > ===================== I'm in agreement with what you said here. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52771 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] right and wrong practice. upasaka_howard Hi, mr... - In a message dated 11/24/05 4:37:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, mr39515@... writes: > Jhana thru samatha meditation is good. In fact, it is > classified as Mahakusala but it is NOT Right. > > I think it came back to the question "what am I here > for?". We are Buddhist and I believe Buddhist > objective is to > 1. Learn the Truth (The 4 Noble Truth), > 2. To Understand the world is such as Anicca, Dukha, > Anata > 3. To Understand the law of depandant origination > 4. If possible to learn The Abhidhamma. > > I reviewed the 4 Noble Truth and specially on the 8 > fold path, and I believe the 8 Rights do not specified > Samatha Meditation. There is Rigth Mindfulness which > has the 4 Station of mindfulness which will lead to > Right Concentration. > ======================= The Buddha explicitly defined right concentration to the jhanas through the 4th. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52772 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Robert) - In a message dated 11/24/05 4:50:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Robertk, Howard, all > > Robert, you are not the first one who states distinguishing nama and > rupa is very subtle. (Sukin did to me too). That surprises me. What > is rupa (experienced material quality is the best translation, I > think) is not so difficult at all. The same for nama as mental > experience. > > Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was nama > but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact > rupa; or was a mix of nama and rupa? > Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was rupa > but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact > nama; or was a mix of nama and rupa? > > The same questions about the distinguishing concept and reality; in > fact I think that you formulated this to short. Better is it to say: > A conceptual description of the reality versus a ultimate description > (or: a description in ultimate language) of the reality. Do you agree > with this? > > Metta > > Joop > > BTW No misunderstanding, not everything is easy. 'Paticcasamuppada' > ========================= I have two comments, Joop. One is that I, personally, like you, have little difficulty distinguishing nama (mental) from rupa (physical), but I cannot speak for others in that regard. The second matter, that of concepts, is the matter of distinguishing what is actually observed from what merely seems to be observed. I agree with Robert that what are projected by our thought processes need to realized for what they are, non-existent imaginings, merely useful cognitive abbreviations that overlay what is actually observed. It is important to look clearly enough to see through our projected shadow concepts to those fleeting phenomena that do actually occur so that we may then come to see their empty nature. We need to know what phenomena actually occur, and to then see first-hand their fragile, fleeting, unsatisfying, and utterly dependent and insubstantial nature in order for relinquishment and awakening to arise. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52773 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:58am Subject: Samatha better then vipasana ? (Was: Re: Hi All jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop (and Howard), > .... > Pure vipassana practice is the dangerous thing. > > Metta, > James Dear James Thanks, I hope you understood I was talking about vipassana Mahasi- style. My problem with Goenka (never did a Goenka-retreat) was that his person is standing to central, it's like MacDonald, everywhere in the world exactly the same program, the same videos. For the rest: your message is clear, it's constructive, only your last remark is exaggerating. Found some practical tetxts on internet, for example 'Instruction for entering jhana' by Leigh Brasington. Metta Joop 52774 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hi All upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 11/24/05 7:54:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > I used to think so highly of Goenka and practiced his meditation > technique for years- but the consequences were not good, as you can > read above. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: For me, the consequences were very good. So I would guess it is a very individual matter. I, regardless of the fact that Goenka terms his approach 'vipassana', think that it is a combined samatha-vipassana approach, and I also think that a combined approach was the central one taught by the Buddha. I consider anapansati to be a combined approach, for example, though one can push it one way or the other. Anapanasati is my main practice now, BTW, and has been for a long time, with my switching off to body sweeping only when I feel the need to enhance clarity & focus. --------------------------------------- My thinking turned around when I joined DSG and started > > to read the original suttas. Now, and I'm sure Howard won't like me > saying this, I don't value Goenka at all and I don't recommend > anyone to take a Goenka meditation retreat. There are many other > retreats available. I read a very funny description of one person > who was thrown out of a Goenka retreat for not following all of > the "rules": > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/goenka.htm > > Not only that, Goenka is a homophobe who won't allow gay men and > lesbian women to participate in his retreats. I definitely wouldn't > support someone like that!! --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know whether he is or not. I hope not. He is apparently very much concerned with avoiding any and all sexuality at his retreats. He fastidiously separates the sexes in order to keep heterosexual feelings on the back burner. Obviously, there can be no separation of females from females or males from males. Thus, with regard to minimizing the arising of sexual desires within same-sex populations at a retreat, not much can be done. Inasmuch as this is simply a "problem" without a solution, the appropriate thing to do is to largely ignore it. Keeping shower facilities private, as he does, and requiring proper comportment at all times is all that can reasonably be done. If Goenka does more, then, IMO, he is being very foolish. If I were to learn that Goenka actually *is* bigoted against homosexuals, I would not attend another of his retreats, not that I'm planning on attending another anyway. I've lost some interest in retreats, it happens, preferring a more solitary practice. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52775 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/24/2005 2:50:58 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: Hallo Robertk, Howard, all Robert, you are not the first one who states distinguishing nama and rupa is very subtle. (Sukin did to me too). That surprises me. What is rupa (experienced material quality is the best translation, I think) is not so difficult at all. The same for nama as mental experience. Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was nama but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact rupa; or was a mix of nama and rupa? Are there ever incidents that you first thought something was rupa but afterwards you realised you were wrong because it was in fact nama; or was a mix of nama and rupa? The same questions about the distinguishing concept and reality; in fact I think that you formulated this to short. Better is it to say: A conceptual description of the reality versus a ultimate description (or: a description in ultimate language) of the reality. Do you agree with this? Metta Joop BTW No misunderstanding, not everything is easy. 'Paticcasamuppada' for example isn't. Hi Joop There are ways of seeing nama and rupa as clearly distinguishable and there are other ways of considering them where they are virtually indistinguishable. Example... The sustenance that sustains our bodies, food for example, might be considered easily distinguishable from our bodies by some mode of thinking. Another mode of thinking would realize that there is no difference whatsoever. To distinguish consumed food from the body is a rather "conventional idea" in my view ... that is, as seeing them as two separate things. I believe that seeing nama and rupa as separate things is also a "conventional view" and not at all an "ultimate reality viewpoint." The way I see it, these things are all interchanging much as the food and body. I believe the more deeply they are contemplated, the less distinguishable they become. This is not to say that the mind becomes confused; it is to say that Conditionality becomes more clearly seen; hence impermanence, affliction, and no-self become more clearly seen, and views of separateness or togetherness come to an end. TG 52776 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Joop & Robert) - In a message dated 11/24/05 11:01:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > The way I see it, these things are all > interchanging much as the food and body. I believe the more deeply they > are > contemplated, the less distinguishable they become. > > This is not to say that the mind becomes confused; it is to say that > Conditionality becomes more clearly seen; hence impermanence, affliction, > and > no-self become more clearly seen, and views of separateness or togetherness > come to > an end. > ========================== While there is interdependence of nama and rupa along several axes, they are distinguishable. Physical is distinguishable from mental. Meanness, though likened to hardness, is not confused with hardness. Kindness, though likened to softness, is not confused with softness. Clarity of mind, though analogous to clarity of eyesight, is not to be confused with it. Separateness and independence are not the same as distinguishablility, and, conversely, inseparability and dependence are not the same as indistinguishability. Vedana and tanha lie in a conditionality relation, the later being dependent on the former, but they are not one-and-the-same. They are distinguishable. Vi~n~nana and namarupa never arise one-without-the-other. They are mutually dependent and inseparable. But they are not one-and-the-same. They are inseparable but distinguishable. Felt hardness and its experiential presence (i.e., the knowing of it) are inseparable and mutually dependent, but they are not one-and-the-same. They are distinguishable. In this matter as in others, I believe, the reality is a middle way. I believe that one properly distinguishes conditionality and non-duality from monism. As I see it, reality is properly characterized neither by an amorphous monism nor by a discrete pluralism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana nilovg Hi James, op 24-11-2005 09:21 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: >> I feel concern, because a jhana teacher was on several lists and > then I >> heard that he had suicidal inclinations. So I think that one has > to be very >> careful with jhana practice. > > James: Nina, I am surprised at you! This is just idle gossip! "I > heard that he had suicidal inclinations", unless he told you himself > you don't know for sure. And this gossip seems to be very anti- > jhana. --------- N: I said this out of concern that people take the false jhana for the right one. A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are real dangers here. I wrote to you when you were offlist but I do not know you got it. I gave your Q. to Kh Sujin but I am not sure whether her answer would irritate you. Lodewijk said, greetings to James. He did not say that he is waiting to hear from you. Sometimes he says, James has a point, or, Howard has a point. Lodewijk mentioned something you, being in Egypt, may find of interest. He heard that Ms. Armstrong (she is an authority in religion I understood) said that Mohammed on his deathbed said that one should get rid of the idea of "I". This should be connected with the idea of ahimsa, non-violence. Sarah told us of your concern when we were in India. She was very sick for a few days, could not eat at all. She said laughingly: James does not know a FRACTION of what we have to go through. Still, we go again in two years time. Thanks for your good wishes given when we were in India. Nina. 52778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asubha Bhavana, more Co. . nilovg Hi Tep, very useful input from you. Nothing aggressive I could think of, no need for worry. op 22-11-2005 04:09 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >> N: I am not inclined to thinking of steps to be taken in order. > > Tep: Yes, I do respect everybody's right to find the most helpful way > for himself (or herself). On the other hand, the "order" or "steps" for > relaxation of akusala vitakka is, indeed, clearly implied by the sutta's > wordings ["If evil, unskillful thoughts — connected with > desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is > attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should > scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts ..." -------- N: If this fails than that could be just a way of teaching: there is multiple choice. And above all: cittas cannot be told to do this first, than that. But I see that you understand, when reading the following: ------- T: Nevertheless, I do agree with you (as Ajahn Sujin has also rightly > pointed out) that one should avoid thinking (intending) as follows: 'I' > must do this first, then 'I' must do that. Yes, realizing the anatta truth is > hard, because it is for advanced learners. --------- T: But every beginner, while > practicing to become a professional in something, must find it > necessary to memorize instructions in step-by-step fashion (so that sati > can be established and he/she is not forgetful). --------- N: Perhaps for sports, etc, but sati is different. Nothing competetive, or, an idea of I must, I must, in order to make it. It has to go along with detachment all the way, and that is against the current of life, as Kh Sujin said. There is the danger of thinking of a self who has to become proficient. -------- T: > N: Clinging to self is so deeprooted, it is difficult to see. Kusala citta is > alternated with akusala citta all the time. More often akusala citta than > kusala citta. > > Tep: Sadhu! I need to keep that in mind too. I hope to discuss this point > with you again (and again) since it is so important and underlying > almost all the discussion themes we have here. -------- N: You are spot on. I was so grateful to be reminded in India that there is often an idea of self who is thinking or writing. We may wonder when it exactly comes up. I think when there can be more awareness and direct understanding it can be detected. But subtle and difficult for me to know precisely. -------- T: An unanswered > question that I keep asking (and unintentionally bothering a few > people) is : Is there a way to condition a stream of kusala cittas to > continue as long as we desire ('chanda' -- in the good sense)? -------- N: It is a good thing to find out the truth: kusala citta cannot be manipulated, because it is citta accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. And think of how many are needed for one moment of kusala, nineteen at least. They all are so busy performing their function during that extremely short time. Saddha has confidence in kusala, sati does not let the moment go by wasted, lightness and pliancy and wieldiness are needed for a supple functioning of citta and cetasikas in the wholesome way. Those who have developed jhana know the right conditions for jhanacittas that may continue even for a whole day. It always depends on conditions. The arahat has mahaakiriyacittas with sobhana cetasikas. As we read in the Removal of unwholesome thoughts: Sutta: ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering." The Blessed One said this, and the bhikkhus glad at heart, approved of his words. ***** The Commentary states that he has become most skillful as to the course of his thoughts and that the Buddha herewith wanted to show the characteristic of such skill. Formerly this bhikkhu did not have the thoughts he wished to have, and those he did not wish to have arose. But since he had become skilled it is different: what he wants to think of, he thinks of, and what he does not want to think of he does not think of. He has eradicated conceit. The Co. refers to the Discourse on all the Cankers (M.N. no 2). ---------- >>> Tep: ..... It is too analytical -- in reality I >>> only focus all attention to fight with the "evil thoughts". >> ........................ >> N: Only paññaa can conquer akusala. See many, many suttas: by >> thoroughly understanding akusala it can be eradicated. >> We do not have to think this is not my palate, no, there can be >> direct awareness of hardness or pressure, no thinking. This >> awareness can stem from listening to satipatthana and >> understanding of what can be the object of awareness: >> one nama or rupa at a time, no concepts such as teeth or palate. > > Tep: Sounds so easy to me. But you know that words and thoughts are > on a different plane from that of "direct knowing" and "direct > awareness". -------- N: Yes, I find this a difficult point and in India I asked Kh. Sujin several times about this subject, and with Phil I say: yes, it is thinking, thinking, thinking. But as I understand, patience and perseverance are needed, althout these do not come on command. No cai ron (a hot heart, or impatience) as we say in Thai. As Jon remarked to Lodewijk in India: Kh Sujin said:'Instead of attending to the characteristics of realities there is thinking about them. But we should not have any expectations, otherwise it is me who would like to have progress.' I was glad of such reminders. ---------- T: I understand your suggestion as follows: by listening to satipatthana, > and understanding only one nama or rupa at a time, direct knowledge > may arise in the mind and that is the panna that can conquer akusala. > Is my understanding correct? ------ N: Paññaa must overcome wrong view first before other types of akusala can be eliminated stage by stage. Thus we have foremost in mind: understanding of the dhammas that are appearing, by being aware of their characteristics. That is why we were reminded of seeing and visible object so often while in India. Listening and considering are conditions. But there are other conditions stemming from the past: kusala in the past brought us to this point now that we are interested to consider and investigate realities. This process has been set in motion already, there is not a person who could regulate this. No need to worry, no need to think: I must apply energy or do something specific. Being aware of one nama or rupa at a time: this cannot be realized immediately. It is quite a learning process, and yes of this we can say: in stages. It is paññaa that develops in stages, we do not have to think of steps to be taken. ---------- I continue later on. Nina. 52779 From: nina Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:26am Subject: Dhamma in Cambodia, Ch 10, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, Seeing is nåma dhamma that is able to see something, this is the function of that kind of element. It is an element that has no shape or form. Paññå can gradually develop and penetrate the nature of nåma dhamma and that is satipatthåna. When a reality appears, sati can arise and be aware of that reality, and then paññå can begin to gradually develop so that there will be correct understanding of its characteristic. If others say that it is not satipatthåna at the moment when understanding of what is real and what appears gradually develops, is that true?. Satipatthåna does not depend on someone else¹s words; it is reality, and at such moments there are dhammas appearing. We are usually forgetful of realities, but when sati arises and is aware, there is gradually more understanding of the characteristics that are real, the characteristics that are appearing. This is satipatthåna. We have theoretical knowledge of the four applications of mindfulness of body, feeling, citta and dhammas, but we should understand that these are real at this moment. Hardness, for example is a reality that is appearing. When sati arises and is aware just for a few moments, the understanding cannot not be clear yet, but this is like the knife handle that wears away each moment someone holds it. Therefore, each time paññå arises there is a condition for its growth and accomplishment. One must have the firm conviction that paññå can know only the reality that is appearing. Paññå is not able to know something that does not appear, something that has fallen away or that has not yet arisen. Paññå can know what is true at this moment, and in this way we can understand the dependent origination of phenomena, the paticca samuppåda: not knowing the truth is the first link of the dependent origination, which is ignorance, avijjå [1] . Avijjå, ignorance, accompanies citta, it cannot arise with rúpa. Whenever we do not understand the truth of realities there is avijjå. If we study the Dhamma more in detail we shall know when there is akusala citta and when vipåkacitta, citta that is result of kamma. Avijjå cetasika is not conascent with vipåkacitta, but there is the latent tendency of avijjå, avijjånusaya, in each citta so long as avijjå has not been eradicated. More understanding of the details of the Dhamma is a condition for beginning to develop the paññå that realizes the truth, and then there will not be clinging to mere words and concepts. However, we should know that reading, listening and studying a great deal is beneficial, because this is a condition for the growth of understanding. We should study and consider the Dhamma with right understanding and we should see the benefit of this. It is necessary to have patience with regard to the development of paññå, it is bound to take a long time. In the Tipitaka the expression of ³círa kåla bhåvana² is used, meaning, development that takes a long time. When we study the life stories of those who could attain enlightenment after they had developed paññå for an endlessly long time, we should not worry about it how long we have developed paññå already and how much longer we should develop it. At this moment we can evaluate the paññå we have developed because we can verify whether paññå can understand the paramattha dhamma that appears now. It is not a concept or idea; at each moment there is paramattha dhamma.. ----- footnote: 1. Ignorance is the first link of the Dependent Origination. So long as there is ignorance we continue being in the cycle of birth and death. For the arahat who has eradicated ignorance, there will not be rebirth, for him there is the end to the cycle of birth and death. ****** Nina. 52780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] right and wrong practice. nilovg Dear Ng Boon, op 24-11-2005 10:29 schreef Ng Boon Huat op mr39515@...: > > All actions we do are either Good/Bad and Right/Wrong. > Most of the time we do Good deeds but those deeds may > not be Right. -------- N: I know by right you mean right practice leading to freedom from samsara, but some people when they read this may misunderstand. I think there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, and thus good deeds motivated by them are rare. ------- > Jhana thru samatha meditation is good. In fact, it is > classified as Mahakusala but it is NOT Right. > > I think it came back to the question "what am I here > for?". We are Buddhist and I believe Buddhist > objective is to > 1. Learn the Truth (The 4 Noble Truth), > 2. To Understand the world is such as Anicca, Dukha, > Anata > 3. To Understand the law of depandant origination > 4. If possible to learn The Abhidhamma. -------- N: I could add to learn the truth of this moment. Thus, of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound etc. The All has to be known. Thinking again of the sutta quoted by Ven. Samahita. And you know, then we are already full into Abhidhamma. Because this is the study and awareness of the dhamma appearing now. Nina. 52781 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 0:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hi All icarofranca Hello Howard! > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > For me, the consequences were very good. So I would guess >it is a very > individual matter. I, regardless of the fact that Goenka terms his >approach > 'vipassana', think that it is a combined samatha-vipassana >approach, and I also > think that a combined approach was the central one taught by the >Buddha. I > consider anapansati to be a combined approach, for example, though >one can push > it one way or the other. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- It´s just the main point about Buddhistic meditation...Samatha can be (ill) translated as "Tranquility of Mind" and "Vipassana" as "Insight", but a sound practice of Buddha´s main teachings on this matter embraces both aspects. On Visuddhimagga´s methods of cultivating insight we get a cause-and-effect approach like the Kasina´s chapters quotes: if you can manage this mind object, you will obtain that result...if you can thread an other way, you will get an other achievement, and so on. As you aptly remarked out, the Anapanasati Sutta´s method of meditation is the most clever Buddha´s teaching about this very important subject: the only other Sutta out to stand it is the Mahayana Surangama Sutra (Ryogon-Kyo in japanese) and its good definitions of Samatha-Vipassana dialectics. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Anapanasati is my main practice now, BTW, and has > been for a long time, with my switching off to body sweeping only when I feel the > need to enhance clarity & focus. > --------------------------------------- Keep Boosting, dear upasaka! > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know whether he is or not. I hope not. He is apparently very > much concerned with avoiding any and all sexuality at his retreats. He > fastidiously separates the sexes in order to keep heterosexual feelings on the back > burner. Obviously, there can be no separation of females from females or males > from males. Thus, with regard to minimizing the arising of sexual desires > within same-sex populations at a retreat, not much can be done. Inasmuch as this is > simply a "problem" without a solution, the appropriate thing to do is to > largely ignore it. Keeping shower facilities private, as he does, and requiring > proper comportment at all times is all that can reasonably be done. If Goenka > does more, then, IMO, he is being very foolish. If I were to learn that Goenka > actually *is* bigoted against homosexuals, I would not attend another of his > retreats, not that I'm planning on attending another anyway. I've lost some > interest in retreats, it happens, preferring a more solitary practice. > =========================== It sounds like the classical Zen technique of very long "Sesshins", or meditation retirements at cold and isolated places at winter, temperating and making robust your vigourous dedication to Buddha´s teachings... With Metta, Ícaro 52782 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/24/2005 10:34:37 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG (and Joop & Robert) - In a message dated 11/24/05 11:01:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > The way I see it, these things are all > interchanging much as the food and body. I believe the more deeply they > are > contemplated, the less distinguishable they become. > > This is not to say that the mind becomes confused; it is to say that > Conditionality becomes more clearly seen; hence impermanence, affliction, > and > no-self become more clearly seen, and views of separateness or togetherness > come to > an end. > ========================== While there is interdependence of nama and rupa along several axes, they are distinguishable. Physical is distinguishable from mental. Meanness, though likened to hardness, is not confused with hardness. Kindness, though likened to softness, is not confused with softness. Clarity of mind, though analogous to clarity of eyesight, is not to be confused with it. Separateness and independence are not the same as distinguishablility, TG: Agreed. My use of "distinguishable" was a poor one. My point, however, was merely that they are not in actuality separate. I hope that point got across. and, conversely, inseparability and dependence are not the same as indistinguishability. Vedana and tanha lie in a conditionality relation, the later being dependent on the former, but they are not one-and-the-same. They are distinguishable. Vi~n~nana and namarupa never arise one-without-the-other. They are mutually dependent and inseparable. But they are not one-and-the-same. They are inseparable but distinguishable. TG: The point, however is to reject and turn away from all conditions seeing them as affliction. Including these points of discussion. Felt hardness and its experiential presence (i.e., the knowing of it) are inseparable and mutually dependent, but they are not one-and-the-same. They are distinguishable. In this matter as in others, I believe, the reality is a middle way. I believe that one properly distinguishes conditionality and non-duality from monism. As I see it, reality is properly characterized neither by an amorphous monism nor by a discrete pluralism. TG: I believe this is the same point I made at the end of my post (in simple English). Please correct me if I'm wrong. One problem in a group like this is that some points that are made with the intention of affecting one level of thought, are then arbitrarily brought to another level of thought, and then critiqued from that different level's point of view. I'm sure I do it as well. The Buddha's teachings can be made to look like a series of contradictions if the audience of the teachings is not accounted for. With metta, Howard TG 52783 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? icarofranca Hello TG! > The Buddha's teachings can be made to look like a series of >contradictions > if the audience of the teachings is not accounted for. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- - I don´t think so, TG. Buddha´s Dispensation at His very time was VERY popular, even when he compassed his wanderings and reachings at some specific regions - Savatti, Jetavana, etc. At Buddha´s time, there were many other Masters that raised up stands against the formal Hinduism: Mahavir, Pakkuda Kaccayana, Mahakali Goshalak,and many others: many times Buddha and His Sangha shared up with this masters and disciples villages, alms and audience...and Buddha´s teachings survived out against the Time Ordeal very well due his internal coherence, sound doctrine and popular appeal: at making Dukkha - Ontological Suffering - as His Touchstone, Buddha hit his target at full!!!! With Metta Ícaro 52784 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/24/2005 3:03:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, icarofranca@... writes: Hello TG! > The Buddha's teachings can be made to look like a series of >contradictions > if the audience of the teachings is not accounted for. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- - I don´t think so, TG. Buddha´s Dispensation at His very time was VERY popular, even when he compassed his wanderings and reachings at some specific regions - Savatti, Jetavana, etc. At Buddha´s time, there were many other Masters that raised up stands against the formal Hinduism: Mahavir, Pakkuda Kaccayana, Mahakali Goshalak,and many others: many times Buddha and His Sangha shared up with this masters and disciples villages, alms and audience...and Buddha´s teachings survived out against the Time Ordeal very well due his internal coherence, sound doctrine and popular appeal: at making Dukkha - Ontological Suffering - as His Touchstone, Buddha hit his target at full!!!! With Metta Ícaro Hi Icaro I'm not sure you understood what I meant. I did not mean the Buddha's teachings are contradictory. I meant that they can easy be "manufactured" to try to make them sound that way. If you are disagreeing with that last point, we are at an impasse because I see it happen all the time. Since you comments don't seem to be addressing my point, I think we are misunderstanding each other. TG 52785 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >In a message dated 11/20/05 4:46:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jonabbott@... writes: > > > >>We may be talking at cross-purposes here. I thought this discussion was >>about using 'meditation' as a translation of 'bhavana', not about >>whether 'bhavana' commonly includes meditation as part of its meaning. >> >=================== > But your reason for saying that it is an incorrect translation I >understood to be that "... no-one has been able to point to anything in the >original Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'." > What I've been saying (or trying to say, obviously not very successfully) is that linguistically the Pali term 'bhavana' carries no connotation of 'mind'. It simply means 'development' (although of course it does in fact refer to the development *of the mind*). So to translate bhavana by meditation is to introduce a gloss on the original Pali. Quite apart from that, I think terms used to translate purely mental phenomena or processes should ideally not connote any particular form of (bodily) action, since it is obviously the mental state and not the outward action that is important. Hoping this clarifies. Jon 52786 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > ... > >Tep: Probably the India "effect" in my case was because I saw you >and Sarah in the Sukin's photo album, and I felt so friendly toward that >couple. {:>)) > Then I think we could call it an 'India halo' effect?! >Now, to be a little more serious: regardless of our different >views/interpretations/beliefs that sometimes led to unnecessary >debates, we are just two good Buddhists discussing the Buddha's >Dhamma (or some related issues) in order to learn more. So there is >no good reason for me to take it too seriously. I am sorry that I did not >think like this in the past. > Well said. Just the way I see it, too ;-)) Regards Jon 52787 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? icarofranca Hi TG! > I'm not sure you understood what I meant. I did not mean the >Buddha's > teachings are contradictory. I meant that they can easy >be "manufactured" to try > to make them sound that way. >------------------------------------------------------------------- You can link (easily sometimes!)many remarks on Buddha´s most classical teachings with very similar paragraphs on the Hindu Upanishads for example: meditation techniques,situations and drama. As a matter of personal viewpoint you can consider this as an artificially builded set of Doctrine - a"manufacturated one", that sounds up intentionally at this or that way. I don´t disagree of you in this field, TG: but in my opinion, of all other "herectical" masters of his time, Buddha and his Doctrine - manufactured or not! - was the most original one! >------------------------------------------------------------------- Since >you comments > don't seem to be addressing my point, I think we are >misunderstanding each > other. >------------------------------------------------------------------- Relax about this, TG! With free discussion and the matching out of divergent opinions true finally surges! With Metta Ícaro 52788 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Namrupapariccheda nana (was Re: Only the 5 khandhas?) philofillet Hi Robert K Happy to see you here again. > defining nama and rupa (namarupapariccheda nana) is an advanced > degree of satipatthana - vipassana. When this insight is reached > there is no idea of self at all, the world has changed, gone. I am a bit confused about these stages of insight. Nina has explained to me a bit, but it's water under the bridge, I'm afraid. You say "advanced degree of satipatthana -vipassana" for defining nama and rupa, but it is the first of the "tender insights" isn't it? Are there "degrees of satipattha- vipassana" that are less advanced? Also, what is the difference in degree, if it can be defined in that way, between this namarupapariccheda and the first realization of the path at which one becomes an ariyan? If as you say, the world disappears, there is no self, at such moments, isn't it akin to having insight of the degree of streamwinner? Thanks in advance. Phil 52789 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:30pm Subject: Vism.XIV,201 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 201. (c) 'According to person': feeling in one who has no attainment is 'gross' compared with that in one who has one, because it is distracted by a multiple object. In the opposite sense the other is subtle. This is how grossness and subtlety should be understood according to person. ********************** 201. puggalavasena pana asamaapannassa vedanaa naanaaramma.ne vikkhittabhaavato samaapannassa vedanaaya o.laarikaa, vipariyaayena itaraa sukhumaa. eva.m puggalavasena o.laarikasukhumataa veditabbaa. 52790 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/24/2005 2:38:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, icarofranca@... writes: You can link (easily sometimes!)many remarks on Buddha´s most classical teachings with very similar paragraphs on the Hindu Upanishads for example: meditation techniques,situations and drama. As a matter of personal viewpoint you can consider this as an artificially builded set of Doctrine - a"manufacturated one", that sounds up intentionally at this or that way. I don´t disagree of you in this field, TG: but in my opinion, of all other "herectical" masters of his time, Buddha and his Doctrine - manufactured or not! - was the most original one! Hi Icaro Yea, I think we're just talking about different subjects. I agree with your above but it wasn't the issue I meant to address. TG 52791 From: "smallchap" Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:05pm Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana smallchap Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I said this out of concern that people take the false jhana for the right > one. A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are real dangers > here. S: How could we tell a false jhana from a real one? Could you describe real jhana in detail? (Well I know one is not in jhana when there is physical movement of his body/body parts.) smallchap 52792 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/24/05 4:40:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > H: Felt hardness and its experiential presence > (i.e., the knowing of it) are inseparable and mutually dependent, but they > are > not one-and-the-same. They are distinguishable. In this matter as in > others, > I > believe, the reality is a middle way. I believe that one properly > distinguishes conditionality and non-duality from monism. As I see it, > reality is > properly characterized neither by an amorphous monism nor by a discrete > pluralism. > > TG: I believe this is the same point I made at the end of my post (in > simple English). Please correct me if I'm wrong. > > --------------------------------------- Howard: You're probably quite right. I think that, happily, we're on the same page on this matter. :-) =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52793 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/24/05 5:36:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > What I've been saying (or trying to say, obviously not very > successfully) is that linguistically the Pali term 'bhavana' carries no > connotation of 'mind'. It simply means 'development' (although of > course it does in fact refer to the development *of the mind*). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, though the usage even at the Buddha's time may well have included, even primarily, the sense of meditation. I suspect that it did. The PTS dictionary seems to as well. -------------------------------------- > > So to translate bhavana by meditation is to introduce a gloss on the > original Pali. -------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. But that gloss may well be appropriate depending on context. -------------------------------------- > > Quite apart from that, I think terms used to translate purely mental > phenomena or processes should ideally not connote any particular form of > (bodily) action, since it is obviously the mental state and not the > outward action that is important. -------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Meditation is a mental activity. But for certain types to be carried out, some postures may be more siupportive than others. ------------------------------------------ > > Hoping this clarifies. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It helps. --------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 52794 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 0:37am Subject: Samatha better then vipasana ? (Was: Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Joop (and Howard), Joop: Thanks, I hope you understood I was talking about vipassana Mahasi-style. James: Oh, okay. From my understanding Mahasi-style meditation is the application of mental "labels" to mental and physical phenomenon in order to distance identification with them. So that it is no longer "I am sitting" but "sitting, sitting, sitting". Is my understanding correct? My response is that, although well- intentioned, the Buddha didn't teach this method and it is actually contrary to what the Buddha taught in regards to sati. I could get into this more but I would need to know if my understanding of the Mahasi technique matches yours, or even if you would like me to get into it more! ;-)) Joop: For the rest: your message is clear, it's constructive, only your last remark is exaggerating. James: Glad you liked and found benefit from most of my message. Now, let's look at my last remark which you found exaggerated. I wrote, "Pure vipassana practice is the dangerous thing." This may sound exaggerated to you but I don't think it is. Allow me to turn to the treatise "The Progress of Insight" by Mahasi Sayadaw. In this treatise Mahasi explains the levels of experience/knowledge that one will go through when they use pure vipassana as their vehicle. As he states in the introduction: "He, however, who has neither produced access concentration nor full concentration, but from the very start applies insight to the five groups of grasping, is called suddha-vipassana-yanika,[12] "one who has pure insight as his vehicle." As to his method of attaining insight it is said in the same Commentary to the Dhammadayada Sutta: "There is another person, who even without having produced the aforesaid tranquillity, applies insight to the five groups of grasping, seeing them as impermanent, etc." In the Visuddhimagga, too, it is said thus: "One who has pure insight as his vehicle contemplates the four elements."' And, so, what are some of the things this "pure insight" practitioner can expect to experience? I am going to quote only those things which I consider "dangerous" and the reason for my last remark which you took exception to: 1. Such understanding of their fearfulness is called "knowledge of the awareness of fearfulness"; it has also the name "knowledge of fear." At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless. 2. When he has realized the fearfulness (of the formations) through the knowledge of fear, and keeps on noticing continuously, then the "knowledge of misery" will arise in him before long. When it has arisen, all formations everywhere -- whether among the objects noticed, or among the states of consciousness engaged in noticing, or in any kind of life or existence that is brought to mind -- will appear insipid, without a vitalizing factor,[39] and unsatisfying. So he sees, at that time, only suffering, only unsatisfactoriness, only misery. Therefore this state is called "knowledge of misery." 3. Seeing thus the misery in conditioned things (formations), his mind finds no delight in those miserable things but is entirely disgusted with them. At times, his mind becomes, as it were, discontented and listless. 4. At that time, usually various painful feelings arise in his body, and also an unwillingness to remain long in one particular bodily posture. Even if these states do not arise, the comfortless nature of the formations will become more evident than ever. And due to that, between moments of noticing, he feels a longing thus: "Oh, may I soon get free from that! Oh, may I reach the state where these formations cease! Oh, may I be able to give up these formations completely!" http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch6.5 James: Hmmm…that sounds quite lovely doesn't it? Where do I sign up?? ;-)) I have first-hand knowledge of these various "knowledges" because I encountered them during my pure insight (vipassana) practice- and they were like hitting a brick wall. I described this in my other post (in the letter). Vipassana meditation made me depressed, fearful, irritated, and unenergetic. (Howard writes in post 52774 that he has never experienced these negative consequences of vipassana meditation. I can only believe that he hasn't practiced pure vipassana meditation or he hasn't practiced long enough to get to these stages- because they do occur!!). Now, on the other hand, what can one expect through the practice of samatha/jhana meditation? Well, the Buddha describes that in several suttas: 1. Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. (M.i,1818; Vbh.245) 2. With the subsiding of applied thought and sustained thought he enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without applied thought and sustained thought, and is filled with rapture and happiness born of concentration (M.i,181; Vbh. 245) 3. With the fading away of rapture, he dwells in equanimity, mindful and discerning; and he experiences in his own person that happiness of which the noble ones say: 'Happily lives he who is equanimous and mindful' -- thus he enters and dwells in the third jhana. (M.i,182; Vbh.245) 4. With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhana, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and has purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. (M.i,182; Vbh.245) James: This seems much more pleasant to me than having to experience fear, misery, disgust, and lamentation as a means to enlightenment. The Buddha didn't intend for anyone to have to go through that either- and it isn't necessary. The path to enlightenment can be quite joyful, happy, and satisfying- it doesn't need to be self- torture. Metta, James 52795 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hi All buddhatrue Hi Howard, Howard: For me, the consequences were very good. So I would guess it is a very individual matter. I, regardless of the fact that Goenka terms his approach 'vipassana', think that it is a combined samatha- vipassana approach, and I also think that a combined approach was the central one taught by the Buddha. I consider anapansati to be a combined approach, for example, though one can push it one way or the other. Anapanasati is my main practice now, BTW, and has been for a long time, with my switching off to body sweeping only when I feel the need to enhance clarity & focus. James: Howard, from this description it doesn't sound like you are practicing the Goenka method; actually, you are practicing the exact opposite of the Goenka method! ;-)) His book on meditation, "The Art of Living", was my bible for many years so I know of what I speak! ;- ) Goenka teaches initial anapanasati to build concentration. Actually, he states that this concentration should be built until one can remain focused on the breath for 10 in-and-out breaths without losing concentration. THEN, one is to begin the sweeping of the body, from top to bottom, for sensations and that is supposed to be the main focus of the practice. One is only supposed to go back to the breath when concentration has been lost while scanning the body. You, however, are doing the exact opposite of this. You are predominately practicing anapanasati and then doing the body scanning when concentration becomes unfocused. Forgive me for saying so, but you can't judge the strengths or weaknesses of a given technique unless you practice it the way it is taught. You can't say "The Goenka method works well for me" when you aren't even practicing the Goenka method. Metta, James 52796 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation. A Disservice ? buddhatrue Hi Jon (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 11/20/05 4:46:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >jonabbott@n... writes: > > > > > > > >>We may be talking at cross-purposes here. I thought this discussion was > >>about using 'meditation' as a translation of 'bhavana', not about > >>whether 'bhavana' commonly includes meditation as part of its meaning. > >> > >=================== > > But your reason for saying that it is an incorrect translation I > >understood to be that "... no-one has been able to point to anything in the > >original Pali term 'bhavana' as carrying the connotation of 'meditation'." > > > > What I've been saying (or trying to say, obviously not very > successfully) is that linguistically the Pali term 'bhavana' carries no > connotation of 'mind'. It simply means 'development' (although of > course it does in fact refer to the development *of the mind*). > > So to translate bhavana by meditation is to introduce a gloss on the > original Pali. James: No it isn't. To translate bhavana as meditation is to translate the Pali word in terms of its context. Words, by themselves, don't mean anything. Maybe 'bhavana' in a different context would be defined differently. I think it is silly to get so hung up on words, especially one word. Words don't have intrinsic meanings. > > Quite apart from that, I think terms used to translate purely mental > phenomena or processes should ideally not connote any particular form of > (bodily) action, since it is obviously the mental state and not the > outward action that is important. > > Hoping this clarifies. > > Jon > Metta, James 52797 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Robert) - > ... Dear Howard, Robert, TG, all Howard: "… concepts, is the matter of distinguishing what is actually observed from what merely seems to be observed. I agree with Robert that what are projected by our thought processes need to realized for what they are, non-existent imaginings, merely useful cognitive abbreviations that overlay what is actually observed. It is important to look clearly enough to see through our projected shadow concepts to those fleeting phenomena that do actually occur so that we may then come to see their empty nature. We need to know what phenomena actually occur, and to then see first-hand their fragile, fleeting, unsatisfying, and utterly dependent and insubstantial nature in order for relinquishment and awakening to arise." Joop: I was to eager to make a sweeping statement about this topic. Although the train of this threas is gone further (with the TG-Icaro- discussion) I try again to make my point more clear. I will make a temporary theory: I create a scale (that's a concept!) with two extremes: -One extreme of ideas of the Buddha (for example distinguishing phenomena) which need much wisdom (terms are: deep, subtle) and only some intelligence to understand them as a worldling ("Extreme W") - The other extreme: the ideas of the Buddha which need much intelligence and only a little wisdom to understand them ("Extreme I") Extreme W --------------------------------------------Extreme I DO Kamma ….. Two realities …. Nama-rupa All ideas of the Buddha can be put somewhere on this scale, is my theory. And then I state: the nama-rupa distinguishment can be put near "Extreme I" on this scale Ideas like "Kamma" and " Paticcasamuppada" had to be put near "Extreme W" on this scale. And now the question is: where to put the idea of distinguishing conceptual versus ultimate reality? I think: near "Extreme I" and you: more in the direction "Extreme W" (Another topic I will mention: I not sure in howfar it was the Buddha who made the distinguishment of the two truths. The least one can say: His followers - and Mahayanists and Abhidhammikas in a different way - "evolved" His ideas about it. I have done some google-searches on this topic and am now reading the results, till now it's vague to me) ====================================================== Robertk; from your message #52767 I realised we talked on different levels. You are combining namarupapariccheda-nana with the anatta-doctrine and of course that's correct. But then we talk about different things: you about experiencing namas as namas and rupas as rupas without mixing them. And I talk about understanding the difference. I know every moment again I make the mistake of interpreting and remembering theories about the rupas I experience: forgetting that this interpretations and theories are not rupa. In fact I make two mistakes in one time: mix nama-rupa and mix ultimate with conceptual. Robertk: "Until the first stage of vipasssana nana though, the difference between nama and rupa is not properly understood. For vipassana to arise there must be a firm intellectual understanding of anatta and this comes about by considering the teachings carefully and wisely and also by repeated testing and study of dhammas in the present moment. " Joop: You are right. In my little theory above it's better to punt "nama-rupa" somewhere more in the middle of the scale. And I agree with you that a intellectual understanding of anatta is needed: we can put the "anatta-doctrine" near the "Extreme I" of my little scale ! Something like: Extreme W ------------------------------------------Extreme I DO Kamma Two realities Nama-rupa Anatta ============================================= TG:" One problem in a group like this is that some points that are made with the intention of affecting one level of thought, are then arbitrarily brought to another level of thought, and then critiqued from that different level's point of view." Joop: That's a very good observation. Yes, I did! And I apologize for every time I did it (and will do it again I'm afraid) Metta (and I hope yahoo will not disturb my scale-drawings) Joop 52798 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Only the 5 khandhas? jwromeijn I try one time more: First drawing: Extreme W --------------------------------------Extreme I ......DO...Kamma............. Two realities.....Nama-rupa > Second drawing: Extreme W --------------------------------------Extreme I ......DO...Kamma.......Two realities...Nama-rupa...Anatta Joop 52799 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: Directed and Undirected Meditation jhana buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: I said this out of concern that people take the false jhana for the right one. James: What do you mean by false jhana and right jhana? I only know of jhana with right view and jhana with wrong view. The first type can lead to enlightenment and the second type leads to rebirth in the higher realms. Nina: A warning that one has to be very, very careful. There are real dangers here. James: What "dangers" are you referring to? Again, I think that this is in reference to that gossip about a jhana teacher who supposedly has suicidal tendencies. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this gossip is true and he does indeed have suicidal tendencies. Is jhana to blame for that?? For example, I have some suicidal tendencies when I read the posts of Ken H. and Sukin (or is that homicidal tendencies??);-)) hehehe..just kidding. Anyway, could one say that DSG makes a person suicidal? Nina: I wrote to you when you were offlist but I do not know you got it. James: Yeah, you sent it to Amr and I read it. I didn't reply because you just said that you would give me KS's answer to my question when I returned. I'm still waiting… ;-)) Nina: I gave your Q. to Kh Sujin but I am not sure whether her answer would irritate you. James: LOL! Or maybe her answer would make me suicidal?? ;-)) You don't have to worry about that- you can just tell me her answer. Nina: Lodewijk said, greetings to James. He did not say that he is waiting to hear from you. James: Well, send my fond greetings back to him also (BTW, is there a picture of him in the photo gallery? I don't think I have seen one.) Nina: Sometimes he says, James has a point, or, Howard has a point. Lodewijk mentioned something you, being in Egypt, may find of interest. He heard that Ms. Armstrong (she is an authority in religion I understood) said that Mohammed on his deathbed said that one should get rid of the idea of "I". This should be connected with the idea of ahimsa, non-violence. James: Interesting. I believe that the prophet Mohammed received the teaching of the Koran by devas. He had developed the `Divine Ear' while meditating in a cave before his religious campaign. Most devas believe in God, or Brahma, like most humans do. Nina: Sarah told us of your concern when we were in India. She was very sick for a few days, could not eat at all. She said laughingly: James does not know a FRACTION of what we have to go through. Still, we go again in two years time. James: ;-)) I am flattered that you guys thought of me during your most horrible moments! ;-)) Good luck in India again. Nina: Thanks for your good wishes given when we were in India. James: You're welcome. Glad you made it back safe and sound. Nina. Metta, James