54000 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What are the five faculties in the ariyans? matheesha333 Hi Nina, Thanks for that. I do not have any tranlsation of the suttas/commentaries other than what is on the web. That it enough for me most of the time. Lokuttara concentration has nibbbaana as object. Yes, something clicked there! Sarati means to recollect. I was also reminded of smruti in sankskrit which means to remember. Remembrance as the proximate cause for sati? I am more under the impression that it is viriya. Maybe remembering conditions viriya to give rise to sati- that would be more in line with the noble eightfold path progression. Also for the five indriya sadda-->viriya- ->sati-->samadhi-->panna. Remembering is more to do with right view isnt it? If so right view-->right effort-->right mindfulness as in the mahacattasarika sutta. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > Knowing that you do astudy on the five indriyas and balas, I thought of you > when reading suttas in K.S. Mahaavagga, Indriyasamyutta. I think you have > B.B. translation? see p. 1670, no 9, Analysis. I compared the Thai Co and > B.B. gives notes. Sometimes lokuttara indriyas are referred to like > concentration here: it has nibbaana (release) as object. It is said that > sati together with paññaa is strong. Here you also see the connection of > sati with remembrance. The Pali sarati means to recollect. If you think of > sati as non-forgetfulness you see the connection. Moreover: firm remembrance > of Dhamma is the proximate cause of sati. > As to the sambojjhhangas, B.B. in his notes, p. 1901, explains that there > are the stages of development: initial arousal, maturation, culmination. I > think that they develop together, as insight develops, not in isolation. > Nina. > op 27-12-2005 02:01 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@h...: > > >>> It's interesting that sati has this twofold division - into > > memory > >>> and mindfulness. Any thoughts about this? > 54001 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman (was] Re: An Interview With Htoo) sarahprocter... Hi Joop, Howard, Sukin & all, We're running late for an appointment, but just to say, Jon just had a good chat with Herman (we still had his mobile no from last August when we met) and he's fine apart from a recent complete crash of his computer system. Metta, Sarah ====== --- Joop wrote: > Dear all, > > I tried to mail Herman a week ago, on a email-adress Sarah gave me; > because I want to know too about him, I liked his enthusiastic > postings. > But got a message of the 'postman' of the provider that this adress > doesn't exist. > Perhaps any of our Australian friends know something? > Otherwise all we can do is think with metta and karuna on him. 54002 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: An Interview With Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Your questions are thought provoking. You seem to always have your own answers ready. But how can you tell whether or not an answer (given by yourself or another person) is the right one? >Larry: The sense of not changing, not aging, and so forth, even while recognizing that some serious aging is happening is an interesting question. I think it goes along with the sense of being the center of everything. Is this due to a quality of consciousness as light or clarity? If so, how are we to "see through" the illusion of permanence of point of view created by ever arising clarity? Tep: That sense of self may very well be a mental image, a nimitta, or a "light". We cannot be so sure because the clarity of our view(dassana) may be an illusion. To see through the four noble truths (and practice according to the eightfold Path) is the "ever arising clarity" that is not an illusion. ''Monks, if anyone were to say, 'Without having broken through to the noble truth of stress as it actually is present, without having broken through to the noble truth of the origination of stress... the cessation of stress... the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress, as it actually is present, I will bring about the right ending of stress,' that would be an impossibility''. [SN LVI.44 : Kuta Sutta] Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Tep: "My sense of self is the perception that I am central to everything > that is going on, internal and external." > > Hi Tep, > > Thanks for coming in. This is another good point. And thanks for the > reminder of the formula "form (etc.) is self, or self possesses form, or > self is in form, or form is in self". It would seem that if self isn't > defined as something specific, such as form, it can be defined by its > attributes, whatever is mine. > (snipped) 54003 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Tep, T:> You asked one of the most asked questions : "What makes you so > sure that rebirth exists?" > > My answer is imple : the Buddha said so in the Paticcasamuppada. > For example, see DN 15. M: I dont have a problem with what is verifiable with my experience. But rebirth isnt one of those things. Just because the buddha said so im not prepared to accept it blindly. In some ways it doesnt matter. I focus on my suffering in this life. The path to the cessation of that suffering, is the same path to the cessation of rebirth, so it makes no difference. But then thats not entirely a satisfactory answer in that someone could live his life minimising his suffering using many means material and psychological and if there is no rebirth, then it all ends in death. Perhaps again that is a wrong view because it is simply not possible to minimise suffering like that without the dhamma and meditation as far as i can see. I am just rambling, hope you dont mind too much! Good that i had a chance to clear my thnking about this. I guess if i live my life like it will be my last, i will have no regrets! -that does mean a life of dhamma practice and dhamma dana as far as i can see. I see others like you Tep, who have such sadda that they dont have to bother with all of this! Sadda cuts right through. Good for you! metta Matheesha 54004 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: What are the five faculties in the ariyans? buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha: I am glad you mentioned viriya (aroused by saddha in the Buddha's Teachings) in the five faculties (indriya) as follows. > M: > > Remembrance as the proximate cause for sati? I am more under the > impression that it is viriya. Maybe remembering conditions viriya to > give rise to sati- that would be more in line with the noble > eightfold path progression. Also for the five indriya sadda-->viriya- > ->sati-->samadhi-->panna. Remembering is more to do with right view > isnt it? If so right view-->right effort-->right mindfulness as in > the mahacattasarika sutta. > Tep: Indeed the sequential development must be right because it is supported by the Buddha's words : SN 48.50 (Aapana sutta): ----------------------- Ven. Sariputta to the Buddha: "With a noble disciple who has conviction, it may be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities, that he will be steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. Whatever persistence he has, is his faculty of persistence. [Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation] "It is indeed to be expected, venerable sir, that a noble disciple who has faith and whose energy is aroused will be mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. That mindfulness of his, venerable sir, is his faculty of mindfulness." [Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation] Regards, Tep ========= 54005 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman (was] Re: An Interview With Htoo) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Joop & Sujin) - In a message dated 12/27/05 7:08:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Joop, Howard, Sukin &all, > > We're running late for an appointment, but just to say, Jon just had a > good chat with Herman (we still had his mobile no from last August when we > met) and he's fine apart from a recent complete crash of his computer > system. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================== Ahh, good! :-) [Sorry about his computer, of course.] Thanks, Sarah!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54006 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha (and Tep) - In a message dated 12/27/05 7:20:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > M: I dont have a problem with what is verifiable with my experience. > But rebirth isnt one of those things. Just because the buddha said > so im not prepared to accept it blindly. > > In some ways it doesnt matter. I focus on my suffering in this life. > The path to the cessation of that suffering, is the same path to the > cessation of rebirth, so it makes no difference. > ======================= Just a point to consider: If one's life is one's one and only life, so that our upcoming death is final, then nibbana (and parinibbana) is achieved right then and there! (So, in that case, shall we hasten nibbana in the obvious way? And if not, why not? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54007 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 0:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman (was] Re: An Interview With Htoo) upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 12/27/05 8:00:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi, Sarah (and Joop &Sujin) ==================== Hey! Looks like I've promoted you!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54008 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Matheesha - Your reply was a little rough at the beginning. :-) > >Tep: You asked one of the most asked questions : "What makes you > >so sure that rebirth exists?" > > My answer is simple : the Buddha said so in the Paticcasamuppada. > > For example, see DN 15. >M: I dont have a problem with what is verifiable with my experience. But rebirth isnt one of those things. Just because the buddha said so im not prepared to accept it blindly. Tep: It sounds like an insult that Tep is blind and naive (i.e. unsophisticated, innocent) to totally believe what the Buddha said without his own wisdom to investigate it first. [Dear Sarah and Nina: I know, I know, there is no 'Tep', no 'self', noone is typing this message -- just rupa & nama.] But at the end you wrote: >M: I see others like you Tep, who have such sadda that they dont have to bother with all of this! Sadda cuts right through. Good for you! Tep: So the insult is somewhat diluted that now it is not as strong as at the beginning. However, I must insist that when saddha is supported by true understanding (that I claim to have) of the Buddha's Teachings on kamma and kusala/akusala, my saddha is not blind. Why? Because the understanding of kusala/akusala along with their roots(mula) is also known as 'samma ditthi' according to MN 9 : "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma. ..." Although I am not a noble disciple yet, but whenever I make an effort(with strong viriya) to contemplate this samma-ditthi and avoid akusala dhammas, there appears to be no "blindness" in that moment. .................... >M: I focus on my suffering in this life. The path to the cessation of that suffering, is the same path to the cessation of rebirth, so it makes no difference. But then thats not entirely a satisfactory answer in that someone could live his life minimising his suffering using many means material and psychological and if there is no rebirth, then it all ends in death. Perhaps again that is a wrong view because it is simply not possible to minimise suffering like that without the dhamma and meditation as far as i can see. Tep: Since you are not able to verify with your own experience whether the "path to the cessation of that suffering is the same path to the cessation of rebirth", then how can you say "it makes no difference" to you? Further, for someone who doesn't have the samma-ditthi (according to the above definition in MN9) I can understand that s/he will not see the big difference between a good Buddhist and a worldling (who doesn't have saddha in the Buddha's Teachings) who lives "his life minimising his suffering using many means material and psychological". ................... >M: I guess if i live my life like it will be my last, i will have no regrets! -that does mean a life of dhamma practice and dhamma dana as far as i can see. Tep: We are in a perfect harmony here. {:->)} .................... Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > (snipped) > M: I dont have a problem with what is verifiable with my experience. > But rebirth isnt one of those things. Just because the buddha said > so im not prepared to accept it blindly. > > In some ways it doesnt matter. I focus on my suffering in this life. > The path to the cessation of that suffering, is the same path to the > cessation of rebirth, so it makes no difference. > (snipped) 54009 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Re what is your sense of self: Sukin: "If and when there are conditions for such looking, I'll let you know." Hi Sukin, Okay, thanks for your time. Larry 54010 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:51pm Subject: Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hello Joop - Your first question was : >Joop: What to think about the text you quoted, Tep? "Thereafter, it will become very difficult to distinguish the true teachings from the false. Why? Because although many of these later books contain a lot of Dhamma, some adhamma (i.e. what is contrary to the Dhamma) are added here and there. These alterations scattered throughout these texts are only noticeable if one is sharp and very well versed in the earliest suttas. Otherwise, one would find it very difficult to distinguish the later books from the earlier ones." Tep: Think of it as a source of information, a clue, to help us understand the problem. ...................... >Joop: The Dhamma is not for anxious and fearful people, and not for pessimistic and fatalistic people; if the Dhamma is true (and It is) than it will comeback even if it seemed to be disappeared. Tep: "It" had been "there" all the time even before the Buddha discovered "it". ..................... >Joop: First a factual question, because I'm not a Pali-knower: Does "adhamma" really mean "contrary to the Dhamma"? Or does it mean "information not mentioned in the Dhamma and for that reason not liberating and thus not important information"? An example; the evolutionary theory (darwinism) is not mentioned in the Tipitaka, but is it contrary to the Dhamma? I think not. Tep: 'adhamma' is to 'dhamma' as 'anatta' is to 'atta'. 'a' means 'not'. .................. >Joop: No misunderstanding: there are many pseudo-buddhistic book and internet-texts, popular buddhism; in the same way that there are many silly popular natural-scientific texts ("Quantummechanics for Dummies"); but what does that proof? Tep: The "Buddhism for Dummies" kind of book proves that there are dummies. :-)) ................. >Joop: All this considerations of me are leading to the question: Is it possible (and I think it is) to change the cultural exterior language that was used in North Inda 2500 years ago; and now use other language, other similes and other metaphores to teach the same Dhamma? And in a way that the core message of the Dhamma rests unchanged? Tep: I think so, as long as you don't adulterate the true dhamma. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > (snipped) > Tep, I have looked at the site you mentioned > (http://dhammapada.buddhistnetwork.com); it is not clear to me who is > the compiler of the file ''Disapparance of The Buddha's True > Dhamma.htm" and the content is a strange mixture too. > And point was new to me: that the "500 years" was not only mentioned > (one time) in the Vinya Pitika but also in AN VIII:51. This Sutta > does not occur in www.accesstoinsight of Thanissaro and not in the > anthology (book) of Bhikkhu Bodhi ; perhaps it is not important > enough? > I only found with google a German translation ("Die Gründung des > Nonnenordens"): it's nearly the same as was is stated in in Vinya > Pitika about it. > (snipped) 54011 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interview With Htoo lbidd2 Hi Matheesha, Tep, Nina, and Howard, Thanks for helping me explore the question of what is self belief according to one's own experience. I don't have any more to add, but I think it's worth looking at from time to time. Very insightful introspection by one and all. Larry 54012 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Message from Herman jonoabb Hi All When I mentioned to Herman that a number of people were asking after him, he offered to send me an email with some news. I have just received that message, and I'm sure he intends it to be shared with you all, so here it is (as you will see, Herman is in good Herman form!) Jon --- Herman Hofman wrote: Hi Jon and Sarah, It was very considerate of you to seek contact with me. I am pleased to be able to tell you that everything is AOK with the entire family. Things are not so great on the computer front, as I explained to Jon. Please pass on my apologies to Howard, I hadn’t replied to his email before my computer crash. I lost the motherboard, CPU and hard drive in one fell swoop, and was left with no history. (that can be a good thing). I am finding my absence form Buddhist lists very beneficial, and would consider it an act of kindness if I was banned from ever joining any list again :-)) I have a friend who worked in Hong Kong for a period, in charge of a large software development project for a government agency. When he came back he vowed and declared that he would never work in HK again. He found that any reports he submitted as to what and why it was required to keep the project on track would come back heavily edited after a round of committees. Apparently, the emphasis in Chinese culture is on not offending anyone. Which he found quite offensive. I find pretty much the same with Buddhist lists of all varieties. The emphasis is on the wrapping, not the message, which is extremely frustrating. Not to say that one doesn’t encounter gems of people and unaffected wisdom (please include yourself in this) here and there. But gems are rare, and that’s what makes them gems :-) I do not know what your wishes for dsg are, but I hope that you are able to continue to share your wisdom. (In the meantime, my replacement computer has just rebooted, but happily, the email software I now have was kind enough to have a partial draft ready for me to continue with). As for me and my indelicate ways, I am happy to agree with Goethe, who said that “when all is said and done, one knows what one knows only for oneself”. Sounds a bit like “the wise know the Dhamma for themselves”, don’t you reckon? Cheers and all the best Herman 54013 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:04pm Subject: Vism.XIV,211 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 211. 1. Herein, 'as to order': order is of several kinds, namely order of arising, order of abandoning, order of practice, order of plane, order of teaching. Herein, 'First there comes to be the fetus in the first stage, then there comes to be the fetus in the second stage' (S.I,206), etc., is 'order of arising'. 'Things to be abandoned by seeing, things to be abandoned by development' (Dhs., p.1), etc., is 'order of abandoning'. 'Purification of virtue ... purification of consciousness' (M.I,148), etc., is 'order of practice'. 'The sense sphere, the fine-material sphere' (Ps.i,83) etc., is 'order of plane'. 'The four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, (D.ii,120), etc., or 'Talk on giving, talk on virtue' (M.i,379), etc., is 'order of teaching'. ************************* 211. tattha kamatoti idha uppattikkamo, pahaanakkamo, pa.tipattikkamo, bhuumikkamo, desanaakkamoti bahuvidho kamo. tattha ``pa.thama.m kalala.m hoti, kalalaa hoti abbuda´´nti (sa.m0 ni0 1.1.235) evamaadi uppattikkamo. ``dassanena pahaatabbaa dhammaa, bhaavanaaya pahaatabbaa dhammaa´´ti (dha0 sa0 tikamaatikaa 8) evamaadi pahaanakkamo.``siilavisuddhi, cittavisuddhii´´ti (ma0 ni0 1.259; pa.ti0 ma0 3.41) evamaadi pa.tipattikkamo. ``kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa´´ti (dha0 sa0 987) evamaadi bhuumikkamo. ``cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa, cattaaro sammappadhaanaa´´ti (dii0 ni0 3.145) vaa, ``daanakatha.m, siilakatha´´nti (dii0 ni0 1.298) vaa evamaadi desanaakkamo. 54014 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:03pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 345- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[o] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] Do we have doubt about rebirth? One may not be sure whether it is true that the last citta in this life will be succeeded by the first citta of the next life. One may have theoretical understanding of the fact that each citta which falls away is succeeded by a next one, but there may still be moments of doubt. We may at times also doubt whether it is possible to develop right understanding and whether this is the way leading to enlightenment. Doubt can never be eradicated by thinking. When we begin to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa there may be doubt whether the reality appearing at the present moment is nåma or rúpa. Their characteristics are quite different but we are confused about them. There can only be less doubt if we continue to be mindful of them when they appear one at a time. Only in this way can we learn that, for example, hardness is different from the experience of hardness and that visible object is different from the experience of visible object. It is useful to know that doubt is akusala, that it is a hindrance to the performing of dåna, the observance of síla and to mental development. However, doubt can be object of mindfulness; when there is mindfulness of its characteristic right understanding can know it as it is. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 54015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination nilovg Hi Tep, op 27-12-2005 00:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > 1. Your error-free method being used to verify citta and mental factors. > 2. The method you have used to find out what your citta is like at a > particular moment. ------- N: Answer to 1 and 2: by gradually developing right understanding of the reality appearing now. I do not say that I have clear knowledge, far from that. But I have no doubt that this is the right Path to have clearer understanding. Of course in conventional matters such as how to deal with other people I meet, maybe I am wrong. To think, maybe I am wrong is not always the same as vicikiccha, doubt. We have to investigate the citta at that moment. Doubts may arise: is enlightenment possible? That is vicikiccha, and so long as one is not a sotapanna it arises. Nina. 54016 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:52pm Subject: Leaving Desire & Lust ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Leaving Desire & Lust Releases the Strain of any Urge! Friends, you should abandon desire and lust for whatever is absolutely impermanent, vanishing, an addictive pain & neither me nor mine nor self !!! And what is impermanent, suffering & neither me nor mine nor any self ??? The eyes and all forms are impermanent, suffering and all impersonal... The ears and all sounds are transient, affliction and without a self... The nose and all smells are fleeting, miserable and both core & egoless... The tongue & all flavours are temporary, frustrating & always ownerless... The body & all touches are passing, much tribulation & remotely non-self... The mind and all thoughts are momentary, trouble & both alien & no-self... Friends, you should eliminate desire and lust for whatever is absolutely impermanent, suffering and impersonal, whether these phenomena are past, present or future, internal or external, high or low, fine or gross, far or near... That will indeed ease your well-fare for a long, long time... Why so? Because - Craving in itself! - is the cause of all Suffering ... This is the 2nd Noble Truth, unheard of before, the Buddha discovered !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [149-151] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. The abandoning of desire & lust: 168-183. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54017 From: limchinkah Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 0:38am Subject: Cetasikas limchinkah A question if I may ask please. Do all the cetasikas arise and pass away simultaneously as the cita? For example, in the group of 7 Universals (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, vitality and attention), do these 7 cetasikas arise at the same time as the cita and pass away at the same time? Or do the cetaikas arise in sequence (say contact arises first, followed by perception then feeling, etc, etc). Thank you. metta, chinkah 54018 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: Cetasikas robmoult Hi Chin Kah, Simultaneously - each performing their own fuction. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, limchinkah wrote: > > A question if I may ask please. > > Do all the cetasikas arise and pass away simultaneously as the cita? > > For example, in the group of 7 Universals (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, vitality and attention), do these 7 cetasikas arise at the same time as the cita and pass away at the same time? Or do the cetaikas arise in sequence (say contact arises first, followed by perception then feeling, etc, etc). > > Thank you. > > metta, > chinkah > 54019 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:10am Subject: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we have just uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The rest should be ready before we go away in February along with the recent India series). Most members (especially those who remember Erik) will particularly enjoy listening to this lively part of his discussion with A.Sujin in July 2001. This was his first visit to the Foundation. It may also be of special interest to those who come to DSG with familiarity with Mahayana teachings and for those like Phil, who have requested to hear some disagreements and a little more ‘heat’ in the live discussions:-). Howard, Larry, James, Tep, Math, Joop and all – please do listen and share any comments. And of course, ERIK! We hope you listen too and wish to thank you for the good discussion. May we also take this opportunity to wish everyone here (including all lurkers) not only a Happy, but even more so, a Wise New Year! Metta, Sarah (& Jon) *It can be found on the DSG back-up site under ‘Audio’ http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ It’s the first audio recording you come to – July, 2001 (There’s a link to the site at the bottom of the DSG homepage if you lose it anytime) For those using a modem rather than a broadband connection, the downloading may take too long. In due course when these sets are finished, we can send you out a cd. Please be patient! ================ 54020 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:16am Subject: It's the 6th! (was 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1) sarahprocter... Oops, it's the 6th anniversary....!! Half of the first cycle...S. --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion 54021 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we have just > uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The rest >.... > For those using a modem rather than a broadband connection, the > downloading may take too long. In due course when these sets are finished, > we can send you out a cd. Please be patient! > ================ > Dear Sarah, Jon Gratulations and a wise 2006 to you too. I will be patient because I only can upload with a modem; and that too0 much time Perhaps you can already give some discussions-topics from this talks so that we can start a more guided discussion. For example: you quote some statements of Sujon or of Erik and we can react on this statements: give arguments why we agree or disagree. Metta Joop 54022 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for uploading more talks. I was listening to a talk from India 2001 that was so good that I was tempted to transcribe it and post it. But people know where they can get the talks if they are interested. > and for those like Phil, who have > requested to hear some disagreements and a little more `heat?Ein the live > discussions:-). Actually, unless I was joking (I should always use winky eye icon ;)) I didn't request more disagreement, just noted that I cling to the way the talks have been edited, without disagreement, and that's what makes me irritable here. like it better when a more traditional dynamic is respected. I think I have heard that A. Sujin doesn't like to be thought of as a teacher, but I think the dynamic at the talks is pretty indisputably that of a teacher talking to her students, and visitors. This is the way wisdom has been transmitted (I assume) for thousands of years and it works best for me. Students listening to their teacher, asking questions, respectfully, (yesterday I heard Jon say "excuse me for asking" whether something she had said was supported by suttas and I liked that), perhaps positing their own ideas, but shutting up when she/he starts talking - which is the dynamic of the talks, at least in the way they are edited. What could be better than one of those stretches when A. Sujin talks for two or three minutes without anyone bursting in with their own lobha-rooted speculations? I cling to that, thus my irritation here. (Of course, she doesn't participate here, so that's the way the cookie crumbles.) I imagine I'll be irritated when I hear Eric. So be it. Irritation is another reality we can come to understand. Phil p.s Thanks again for all your work editing the talks. I encourage anyone who hasn't listened to the talks in the audio files to start with the first one there, from India 2004. The sea of concepts that we are drowning in all the time - there can be a moment of being free from that when a moment of seeing or any other paramattha dhamma is understood. She speaks with such great conviction about this sort of thing. 54023 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 philofillet Hi again > I was tempted to transcribe it and post it. > But people know where they can get the talks if they are interested. Bad Phil! Stingy Phil! We are away for New Year's but when I'm back I'll transcribe it and post it. :) Phil 54024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What are the five faculties in the ariyans? sa ññaa proximate cause of sati. nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 28-12-2005 01:00 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > Remembrance as the proximate cause for sati? ------ N:We read in the Expositor (I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 122) about mindfulness: ³... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (saññå) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-past from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.² I shall give an example. Ven. Samahita quotes just now a gem of a text: <...Bhikkhu, when one knows and sees any eye, form, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, & feeling arised caused by eye-contact as impermanent, when one knows and sees this, that wrong view, that belief in an ego, that making up of a self, is overcome, eliminated and all abandoned... Bhikkhu, when one knows & sees any ear, sound, ear-consciousness, ear-contact, & any feeling arised caused by ear-contact as transient, when one knows and sees this, that wrong view, that belief in an ego, that making up of a self, is overcome, eliminated and all abandoned...> It reminds us of the dhammas appearing through the six doors. We should not just read this text, it is about dhammas appearing at this moment. The Buddha taught all the time of dhammas appearing at this moment. When we consider this text and investigate it, we remember to apply it just now, it pushes towards this moment. I was watching the early morning news on T.V., and remembered that it is true: there is seeing, there is visible object. We cannot understand yet the true characteristic of impermanence, but considering the dhamma that appears now is a beginning, and it is the right beginning. No doubt! We are inclined to think of a whole of person, of a thing, but we see the Buddha's great compassion in his teaching of the analysis into elements of what is compact. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, etc. -------- M:I am more under the impression that it is viriya. ---- N: Yes, we also need viriya, viriyaarambha, ardent energy. Nobody can make it arise. It is a cetasika that accompanies sobhana citta, and also all the other sobhana cetasikas that accompany citta that develops right understanding. We need viriya to continue the development of right understanding with courage, not giving up. It gives pushing power to the citta. We need confidence, saddhaa, to listen to the Buddha, to develop the Path. Also enthusiasm, piiti, is helpful, but it only arises with the kusala cittas that are accompanied by happy feeling, and nobody can make it arise at will. ------ M: Maybe remembering conditions viriya to give rise to sati- that would be more in line with the noble eightfold path progression. Also for the five indriya sadda-->viriya- > ->sati-->samadhi-->panna. Remembering is more to do with right view > isnt it? If so right view-->right effort-->right mindfulness as in > the mahacattasarika sutta. ------ N: All sobhana cetasikas are necessary and they can be classified in many ways. As to the five indriyas, when they have become balas, powers, they are unshakable by their opposites. They develop together, not without right view. Nina. 54025 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 nilovg Hi Phil, reading it is also very good. Not everyone can get it from the audio, like Azita who does not have a broadband. And then, I like your comments in between! Nina. op 28-12-2005 13:11 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > > Hi again > >> I was tempted to transcribe it and post it. >> But people know where they can get the talks if they are interested. > > Bad Phil! Stingy Phil! We are away for New Year's but when I'm back > I'll transcribe it and post it. :) > > Phil 54026 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Howard, H: > Just a point to consider: If one's life is one's one and only life, so > that our upcoming death is final, then nibbana (and parinibbana) is achieved > right then and there! (So, in that case, shall we hasten nibbana in the > obvious way? And if not, why not? ;-) M: Suffering arises because of defilements. To think only of nibbaana is to not enjoy the journey - the relief that lesser and lesser defilements bring in this very life. Yes, we must hasten it! But then the question of suicide props up doesnt it? Why not go right to the end. Most people cant commit suicide even if they wanted to. A more pleasant way of going perhaps- Drug overdose? Then what if rebirth does exist? You would have a big problem on your hands. You'd have wasted a human life. (its the old theory - better to believe in god, because if he doesnt exist its ok - but youre in for big trouble if he does!) im running late. This need more rembling :) take care Matheesha 54027 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:08am Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Attn. Sarah, Matheesha, Howard, James)- Thank you very much for the sincere answer. But the "gradually developing right understanding of the reality appearing now" is not easy to understand. Why? Because there is a mismatch between the slow, erroneous understanding of a non-Ariyan and the extremely-fast arising-and-dissolving phenomena that are happening. We are out of phase, out of synch with the ultimate realities. So what we are observing or contemplating in the present moment is not an ultimate reality that just appears and dissolves in an interval smaller than a nanosecond. >N: I do not say that I have clear knowledge, far from that. But I have no doubt that this is the right Path to have clearer understanding. Tep: So you say we start from our low level of understanding that is not yet a "clear knowledge". You've said many times before that all we have to do is listening and considering the Dhamma and accumulate kusala through dana, anussati, and vipassana (e.g. seeing anatta in the rupa & nama -- although I think what you think you "see" may not be the ultimate reality). You also claim that there is no need for samatha-vipassana bhavana, no anapanasati, no nekkhamma, no kayagata-sati kammatthana, no seclusion. Is the above what you mean by "the right Path" to clearer understanding and to become a sotapanna? ....................... >N: We have to investigate the citta at that moment. Doubts may arise: is enlightenment possible? That is vicikiccha, and so long as one is not a sotapanna it arises. Tep: If the term "investigate" you are using here is in the conventional sense, then "to investigate the citta at that moment" would mean to me as to reflect or observe the thought at that moment. That is what ordinary people understand, they don't understand 'citta' as the ultimate reality. Ordinary people know when they have doubt; they don't have to understand ultimate reality or read an Abhidhamma book. My whole point is that it has been very confusing when I hear the jargons of the Paramattha-dhamma mixed with the conventional language. I have asked many questions not out of disrespect or a sinful intention to find fault with you, dear Nina. I asked those questions because I wanted clarifications. Respectfully, Tep ====== ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 27-12-2005 00:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > 1. Your error-free method being used to verify citta and mental factors. > > 2. The method you have used to find out what your citta is like > > at a particular moment. > ------- > N: Answer to 1 and 2: by gradually developing right > understanding of the reality appearing now. > I do not say that I have clear knowledge, far from that. > But I have no doubt that this is the right Path to have clearer understanding. > Of course in conventional matters such as how to deal with other people I meet, maybe I am wrong. > To think, maybe I am wrong is not always the same as vicikiccha, doubt. We have to investigate the citta at that moment. Doubts may arise: is enlightenment possible? That is vicikiccha, and so long as one is not a sotapanna it arises. > Nina. > 54028 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin pa... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Erik & all) - In a message dated 12/28/05 6:12:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we have just > uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The rest > should be ready before we go away in February along with the recent India > series). > > Most members (especially those who remember Erik) will particularly enjoy > listening to this lively part of his discussion with A.Sujin in July 2001. > This was his first visit to the Foundation. > > It may also be of special interest to those who come to DSG with > familiarity with Mahayana teachings and for those like Phil, who have > requested to hear some disagreements and a little more ‘heat’ in the live > discussions:-). > > Howard, Larry, James, Tep, Math, Joop and all – please do listen and share > any comments. And of course, ERIK! We hope you listen too and wish to > thank you for the good discussion. > ======================= First of all, Sarah, thank you for this! I've listened to the first tape and have enjoyed it. My kudos to Erik! :-) I appreciate his emphasis on clarity and mutual understanding of intended meanings!! One comment: As to the second sort of dukkha, the dukkha of change I believe it is (?) - I take this to be the inadequacy, or, better, the undependability, of dhammas due to anicca, to their not remaining. What does not remain cannot be grasped or controlled, and is thus unworthy of pursuit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54029 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > ....To say that that the ethical quality of an act > depends on the accompanying mental state is not to talk only about nama > and to neglect rupa. Many forms of kusala involve an act of body or > speech. Without understanding the crucial importance of the mental > state, there will be less kusala in one's acts of speech and body. > > Jon > Hi Jon The difference between us is clear, I will not repeat my arguments. One final remark. Jon: "Many forms of kusala involve an act of body or speech. Without understanding the crucial importance of the mental state, there will be less kusala in one's acts of speech and body." Joop: I agree but's not the complete picture, the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating'. If there is a real kusala mental state, in my continuing exemple "right livelihood", then that state conditions ethical behavior. It's getting again and again a kusala mental (ethical) state plus the right (ethical) action that is to me the aspect "right livelihood" of the NEP Metta Joop 54030 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:56am Subject: What is adhamma? (Was:Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. jwromeijn Hallo Tep, all I must have asked my question in the wrong way, because I did not get the answer I needed. The origin was a quote "Thereafter, it will become very difficult to distinguish the true teachings from the false. Why? Because although many of these later books contain a lot of Dhamma, some adhamma (i.e. what is contrary to the Dhamma) are added here and there. These alterations scattered throughout these texts are only noticeable if one is sharp and very well versed in the earliest suttas." Yestedray: > >Joop: First a factual question, because I'm not a Pali-knower: > >Does "adhamma" really mean "contrary to the Dhamma"? Or does > >it mean "information not mentioned in the Dhamma and for that > reason not liberating and thus not important information"? > An example; the evolutionary theory (darwinism) is not mentioned in > the Tipitaka, but is it contrary to the Dhamma? I think not. > > Tep: 'adhamma' is to 'dhamma' as 'anatta' is to 'atta'. > 'a' means 'not'. > This answer does not help me; I formulate my question in another way: In many languages there are two prefixes to a word: - "a-" meaning simply: "not", "something else as" - "anti-" meaning "contrary to" My question was which of the two meanings are used in "adhamma"; some examples: - evolutionary theory is (in my opinion) "something else as dhamma" and not "contrary to dhamma" - 2 + 2 = 4 is "something else as dhamma" and not "contrary to dhamma" - "everybody has - deep inside - a core" is "contrary to dhamma" My question: is there in Pali also the distinguishment a-dhamma and anti-dhamma? Metta Joop 54031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth. nilovg Hi Matheesha, some thoughts on rebirth. op 28-12-2005 01:19 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > M: I dont have a problem with what is verifiable with my experience. > But rebirth isnt one of those things. Just because the buddha said > so im not prepared to accept it blindly. __ N: When we understand more the citta at this moment things will become clearer. Each citta that arises falls away, but it conditions the following citta, so long as we are in the cycle of birth and death. Even on the intellectual level we can understand that there was seeing before, and afterwards thinking about what we saw, and then hearing, different moments. There can be only one citta at a time. If there were no citta nothing in this world could appear. We should consider the nature of citta more deeply. Then the last citta of this life will arise, and also this citta conditions the arising of the succeeding one, the rebirth-consciousness. The cycle continues. I do not know whether this helps? NIna. 54032 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:52am Subject: What is adhamma? (Was:Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - The 'not' for 'a' in 'adhamma' is more in the context of the passage that you quoted than "anti". That is, 'adhamma' there means 'not the teachings given by the Blessed One'. Two other meanings of 'adhamma' that I know are 'evil conduct' and sinner'. The "anti" sense is seen in this group. Example, the war between the 'dhamma' and the 'adhamma' in the Buddhism literature. Please ask others too. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Tep, all > > I must have asked my question in the wrong way, because I did not get > the answer I needed. The origin was a quote > "Thereafter, it will become very difficult to distinguish the true > teachings from the false. Why? Because although many of these later > books contain a lot of Dhamma, some adhamma > (i.e. what is contrary to the Dhamma) are added here and there. These > alterations scattered throughout these texts are only noticeable if > one is sharp and very well versed in the earliest suttas." > (snipped) > 54033 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:02am Subject: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, It looks like a few hundred posts have gone up in the week or so that I've been away from dsg. I hope you had a Merry Christmas (even though you are a Jewish Buddhist!) and are having a meaningful and memorable Hanukkah. Please forgive me for not being able to keep up with the hectic dsg pace--I've been an inactive member for quite some time. The Abhidhamma and commentaries do seem to emphasize "paramattha dhamma" as "discrete quanta." Although I don't think it's accurate to characterize dhammas as "discrete quanta" (more on that later), in the Abhidhamma and commentaries there certainly is an emphasis on a focussed, moment-to-moment view Dhamma rather than on a generalized, conventional view. There's a simple explanation: the goal of the teaching is to help the learner understand at the deepest level that this synthesis of dhammas that we call "I" or "me" or "self" is an insubstantial abstraction. When this understanding is fully developed, there will be no more craving and clinging for things to satisfy the ravenous non-entity nor for the renewal and preservation of that non-entity itself. The notion of "paramattha dhamma" is central to an understanding of how the "Self" view is synthesized and in what way that view is deluded. How does that notion of a self get synthesized so readily and so incorrigibly in our minds, even when we very strongly reject the notion of "self" as a falacious, non-sensical, misery-inducing illusion? The Brahmajala sutta (DN 1, i34 PTS) sheds some light as it discusses one of the many ways the notion of "self" is constructed in the mind: "In this case some recluse or Brahmin is addicted to logic and reasoning. He gives utterance to the following conclusions of his own, beaten out by his argumentations and based on his flight of thought thus: 'That which is [connected with] "the eye", "the ear", "the nose", "the tongue" and "the body"--that self is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, subject to change. But that which is called "citta", "mano", or "viñ±¡®a"--that self is permanent, eternal, not subject to change..." Although the rationalistic partial- eternalist described by Buddha in the passage above posits a "who" to experience and compare cittas, it really isn't necessary. The commentary discusses this interesting case in more detail: "The rationalist sees the breakup of the eye, etc.; but because every preceding act of consciousness (citta), in ceasing, conditions the arising of its successor, he does not see the breakup of the consciousness, even though the latter is more pronounced than the breakup of the eye, etc. Since he does not see the breakup of consciousness, he assumes that when the bodily frame breaks up the consciousness goes elsewhere...This he declares as his view." Blurred vision (ignorance) prevents a clear view of the moment-to- moment breakup of consciousness. A consequence of that blurred vision is an intensification of the impression of continuity and the positing of a self to "hold" that sense of continuity. Key to shattering the illusion of self is development of the Right View that directly sees the insubstantiability of the "Self" through the moment- to-moment breakup of consciousness. There is no need to doubt that such perception can (and does) arise. For example, we read about it in Vism XX:104 (section of the first stage of vipassana): "...formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv,137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv,137), like a mustard seed on an awl's point (Nd.1,42), like a lightning flash (Nd.143). And they appear wwithout core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like dream (Sn.807), like the circle of a whirling firebrand (?), like a goblin city (?), like froth (Dh.46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii, 142), and so on." It is not just the arising a falling away of the OBJECTS of perception (sounds, thoughts, etc.) that is perceived, but also the moment-to- moment arising and passing away of consciousness itself is clearly discerned. As insight deepens, the sense of discontinuity, the sense of insubtantiality, the sense of "paramattha dhamma" as distinct from "concept" grow. At the same time a disillusion with the conventional, generalized view of Dhamma grows as well: As there is less and less tendency to view "Self" as the average of dhammas through time, there is less and less tendency to view, say, "eightfold path" as the average of dhammas through time (which is essentially the conventional notion of "path"). The subcommentary to the Brahmajala elaborates further: "'He does not see the breakup of consciousness': although consciousness is breaking up moment after moment, each act of consciousness, in breaking up, becomes the proximity condition for the following act of consciousness. Because each succeeding act of consciousness arises concealing, as it were, the absence of its predecessor, the aspect of presence alone is strong and clear, not the aspect of absense. Thus he does not see the destruction of consciousness. This matter becomes very clear by the example of the fire-disc (i.e. the unbroken disc of flame formed by swinging a firebrand in rapid circular motion). Because the rationalistic partial-eternalist is still more remote from understanding and applying the method of diversity (viz. discrete cittas), and wrongly applies the method of unity, he arrives at the conviction: 'This very consciousness which always occurs with a single nature, just this is a permanent self.'" So the view of a self to house the stream of dhamma and to interpret the experiences will naturally take root when each succeeding act of consciousness arises and conceals the absence of its predecessor, and the aspect of presence alone is strong and clear, not the aspect of absense. Then, there is no clear view of the dissolution of consciousness. Although discussion of paramattha dhammas may at times seem like discussion of "discrete quanta", the experience is quite different because their arising and dissolution is dependent on conditions. Bhikkhu Bodhi describes the tug-of-war between the poles "discrete quanta" and "perception of continuity" as a balance between the "methods of diversity and unity" (in the introduction to his translation of DN 1): "The eternalist doctrine is said to originate through a misapplication of the 'method of unity' (ekattanaya) to the continuum of experience which is the subject of examination.... The method of unity disloses the coherence of the succession of distinct experiential occasions making up the continuum. It shows them as bound together in a single series, participants in a process of transmission and development, interconnected members unified through a law of conditional dependence. The method of diversity balances this by showing up the difference. Though unified, the current of experience is still a chain mmade up of distint links. Some of these funciton as causes, others as effects.... When these two methods are applied in conjunction, the current of experience will be correctly understood; but when they are misapplied or applied in a one-sided fashion, it will be misunderstood. The misapplication of the method of unity will lead to the belief in an identical self and thence to eternalism. The misapplication of the method of diversity will take the disruptive, discontinuous element in experience as absolute and thence lead to a doctrine of annihilationism. The correct application of both will show the continuum to be a causally connected succession of momentary processes, which continues so long as the causes retain their efficacy and ceases when the causes are deactivated, in either case without harboring a pesisting core to be grasped as a personal self. This is the middle way which avoids the two extremes." With its abundance of conventional language about "this bhikkhu, that householder" and similes about "gold" and "luminous mind", it is easy to (mis)read the suttas with a unity bias. With its elaborate description and classification of cittas and cetasikas, Abhidhamma (esp. Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, and the first few chapters of Abhidhammatha sangaha) emphasize more the method of diversity, and an intellectualized reading can easily lend itself to a "discrete quanta" view of paramattha dhammas. I find it very helpful to study Abhidhamma, and then I read the suttas with a little more of a "diversity" method than a "conventional" reading would give. Ledi Sayadaw also has a nice discussion of importance of understanding paramattha dhammas: "But how are we to understand the momentary arising and ceasing of mind?" (JPTS 7(1):115-163, 1913). He draws his discussion from the Citta chapter of Yamaka, and his answer is typical of both the suttas and Abhidhamma. Here's my take on it... There are six kinds of consciousness -- those of the five special senses and the "coordinating sense" (mano). If with seeing there is the sense, "I see a visible object", the visual cognition has been taken as a "self". Same with hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. If there is the sense, "It is a mental phenomenon, an element, a sphere of sense, it is not 'mine,' not 'I', not my 'self'", then the sensation is not taken as self. But what about cognition itself (mano), considered apart from seeing and other occasions of sense? Consider the sentiment: "I think such- and-such", or "I experience a citta", or "I observed lots of cittas passing by in the span of a second." Here, consciousness has been taken as a "self" as soon as a distinction is sought between the experience and the experiencer, between the act and the agent (or actor). Abhidhamma makes no such distinction, and no such distinction is necessary. The mind (citta) is not distinct from the act "thinking". Similarly, there is no agent apart from the act "sensation" (or "contact" or "sankhara" or "recognition"), i.e. there is not a citta that experiences sensation. To think of citta as something that experiences sensation is once again to make a distinction between the experience and the experiencer; the act and the agent; the actor and the action; the self that does this, experiences that, and thinks this-or-that. BOOM! "Self" is found masquerading right in the midst of a bunch of fancy Pali terminology that merely serves as cover for sakayaditthi--and an effective cover at that! Citta doesn't experience sensation; Citta IS the experience, and sensation is one of the characteristics of that experience. Experience (citta) at one moment differs from that at another moment, and sensation is an aspect of each citta. So is sanya (perception, recognition, memory). "This moment is similar to the moment a moment ago" -- that impression is sanya which "has the characteristic of noting and the function of recognizing what has been previously noted" [Asl I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 110), cited in Nina's "Cetasikas"]. The object of sanya is the same as the object of the citta; but the cognizing itself is "citta", while "sanya" is the name given to a category of ingredient that flavors the cognition. A "function" of sanya is the "recognition" of similarity or dissimilarity between cittas. As many cittas in a long line are marked by sanya as "familiar, similar to prior citta", a sense of continuity arises and, along with it, a notion of Self to house the cittas. When the five aggregates are discerned as arising and falling from moment to moment, sanya itself is perceived as arising and falling. The sense of continuity is shattered for a few moments. However, it is not perceived as a sense of "discrete quanta" because the sense of conditional dependence among cittas grows. Dan [NOTE: Parts of this post are taken from "Cheetahs and owls" (9581 from a post written several years ago).] 54034 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:15am Subject: Survey onco111 Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert, Sukin, etc., I received my copy of "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" a few days ago. It's beautiful! I very much appreciate the insightful content (thank- you, Khun Sujin), the hard work that went into the translation (kudos, Nina), the hard work that went into producing it (Mike? Sukin? Robert? Bruce? Amara?), the thoughfulness of Sarah in sending me a copy (and to Sukin for physically packaging and sending it). A marvellous effort. Wonderful friends in Dhamma. I don't know much about how you all put this together or who all was involved but great work! Thank-you. Sincerely, Dan P.S. It looks like it has a higher quality binding and will not fall apart on the first reading--very much appreciated. 54035 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Congratulations on establishing and maintaining an astounding dhamma discussion group, Sarah and Jon. You have done a super job. Keep it up! I joined dsg just over five years ago after finding it through a link at nibbana.com. I raved about the group on day 1 and continue raving about it now. Even though I haven't been very active the past two or three years, I still think about you. Special thanks also to Robert, Amara, and Mike, whose dedicated and thoughtful participation in the first year or so really helped bring the group to life and give it a lasting soul. :) Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we have just > uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The rest > should be ready before we go away in February along with the recent India > series). > > Most members (especially those who remember Erik) will particularly enjoy > listening to this lively part of his discussion with A.Sujin in July 2001. > This was his first visit to the Foundation. > > It may also be of special interest to those who come to DSG with > familiarity with Mahayana teachings and for those like Phil, who have > requested to hear some disagreements and a little more ?heat? in the live > discussions:-). > > Howard, Larry, James, Tep, Math, Joop and all ? please do listen and share > any comments. And of course, ERIK! We hope you listen too and wish to > thank you for the good discussion. > > May we also take this opportunity to wish everyone here (including all > lurkers) not only a Happy, but even more so, a Wise New Year! > > Metta, > > Sarah (& Jon) > > *It can be found on the DSG back-up site under ?Audio? > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > It?s the first audio recording you come to ? July, 2001 > (There?s a link to the site at the bottom of the DSG homepage if you lose > it anytime) > > For those using a modem rather than a broadband connection, the > downloading may take too long. In due course when these sets are finished, > we can send you out a cd. Please be patient! > ================ > 54036 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - Thank you for your lengthy and detailed post, much of which I agree with. In a message dated 12/28/05 1:03:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > It looks like a few hundred posts have gone up in the week or so that > I've been away from dsg. I hope you had a Merry Christmas (even > though you are a Jewish Buddhist!) and are having a meaningful and > memorable Hanukkah. Please forgive me for not being able to keep up > with the hectic dsg pace--I've been an inactive member for quite some > time. > > The Abhidhamma and commentaries do seem to emphasize "paramattha > dhamma" as "discrete quanta." Although I don't think it's accurate to > characterize dhammas as "discrete quanta" (more on that later), in > the Abhidhamma and commentaries there certainly is an emphasis on a > focussed, moment-to-moment view Dhamma rather than on a generalized, > conventional view. There's a simple explanation: the goal of the > teaching is to help the learner understand at the deepest level that > this synthesis of dhammas that we call "I" or "me" or "self" is an > insubstantial abstraction. When this understanding is fully > developed, there will be no more craving and clinging for things to > satisfy the ravenous non-entity nor for the renewal and preservation > of that non-entity itself. The notion of "paramattha dhamma" is > central to an understanding of how the "Self" view is synthesized and > in what way that view is deluded. > ====================== I accept paramattha dhammas as those phenomena that actually occur, and I do distinguish paramattha dhammas from mere seemings. All that I question is their discrete characterization. All conditioned dhammas arise and fall. But I do not believe that need be seen as implying sharp, precise beginnings and endings, but, rather, ebbs and flows, like wave after wave after wave. And not only do I think that the packet perspective is likely false, but also that this perspective is conducive to viewing paramattha dhammas as self-existent realities, each with own-being and identity. In that view, cittas become little agents, little selves. I see that view as replacing the notion of self by that of a multitude of knowing entities, and as leading to a kind of pluralistic atta-view that is contrary to the hollowness perspective so well expressed in the Uraga Sutta and Phena Sutta and throughout the Sutta Pitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54037 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas TGrand458@... In a message dated 12/28/2005 1:39:11 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, limchinkah@... writes: A question if I may ask please. Do all the cetasikas arise and pass away simultaneously as the cita? For example, in the group of 7 Universals (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, vitality and attention), do these 7 cetasikas arise at the same time as the cita and pass away at the same time? Or do the cetaikas arise in sequence (say contact arises first, followed by perception then feeling, etc, etc). Thank you. metta, chinkah Hi chinkah I think Rob's answer that they arise simultaneously is basically correct with the qualification that there is a "structural order" in the way they arise. What that means, for example, is that -- feeling cannot arise without contact. therefore, contact is a cause for feeling and not vice versa. Feelings, perceptions, and more "involved" mental formations all arise due to contact. It seems to me that there is a progression of ever more sophisticated mental states. Whether any time span, however minute, between these states exists might be debatable. But if there is a time separation, it occurs so quickly that it may be imperceptible. Abhidhamma analysis says that all of these mental factors (and a few others) are universally present with each conscious moment. To me it certain seems like feeling and perception precede thinking and deliberating. In fact there are several Suttas where the Buddha talks about these issues in terms of sequence. Your question is a good one and ultimately one that I think you will need to figure out for yourself, because I don't believe there is a statement anywhere in the Suttas where the Buddha says they are simultaneous. TG 54038 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Dear friend Tep, First let me apologize to you! :) I was insensitive to you at that point, and for that im truly sorry. I did not have you in mind when i wrote that, rather i was thinking about myself, and that i can be rather stubborn in these matters, and that i dont accept just because something has been written down, regardless of who was supposed to have said it. It implies that you do; I see that now, but I didnt mean it like that! > Tep: Since you are not able to verify with your own experience whether > the "path to the cessation of that suffering is the same path to the > cessation of rebirth", then how can you say "it makes no difference" > to you? M: Let me put it in another way - the path to the cessation of suffering is the same as the path to the ending of rebirth. Both are the one and the same noble eightfold path. So if i practice this, and focus on cessation of suffering, then if rebirth exists, and if the eightfold path stops rebirth, then that aspect would be taken care of as well! I find it too much of a strech of my doubting mind that rebirth might exist and that the noble eightfold path might not be the answer!! if the buddha says there is rebirth I take it he is intelligent enough to find out whether the Path works to stop it as well! T:> Further, for someone who doesn't have the samma-ditthi (according to > the above definition in MN9) I can understand that s/he will not see > the big difference between a good Buddhist and a worldling (who > doesn't have saddha in the Buddha's Teachings) who lives "his life > minimising his suffering using many means material and psychological". M: You are right, this is an issue of mundane right view according to the suttas. But I have to be true to myself - if i dont know it, i dont know it. How can i take on some view which someone else says i should have of the world without question? All the reasons why im not a christian. It is the same reason i dont accept easily what is said in the commentaries. If there is something i simply dont know, and it suggests i should change my life based on that, i will leave it. I think it is the same reason which drives me forward on the path, where many people may be stuck. The buddhadhamma isnt clear yet. We are still in the wilderness about it. lost children trying to find our way out of the forest. I think great things will happen in the next 100 years with regards to attainment. I feel very much like an experimenter doing my own thing with the dhamma. The suttas are my guide. I keep a critical mind and move forward. I'm not closed off to science or any other view which might be helpful along the path. Reducing lobha, dosa, moha is my guide. The suttas say if someone has faith in the buddha then he will go to one of the heavens. I dont know that and i dont particularly care. All I know is my suffering now, that the core dhamma is true and that dhamma practice helps. The difference you speak of between a buddhist and a non buddhist is only important to me in terms how much less suffering a buddhist must/should have. Everything else (the buddhist world view) we take on faith. This is perhaps another reason why a method of studying great amounts first wont work for me. Because paramatta dhammas are taken on faith after all. I dont expect anyone else to feel this way. This is just what works for me. Tep..we dont *have* to be in harmony to be friends, even though that would be nice! metta Matheesha 54039 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi again, Dan - I missed replying to the beginning of your post! In a message dated 12/28/05 1:41:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi Howard, > >It looks like a few hundred posts have gone up in the week or so that > >I've been away from dsg. I hope you had a Merry Christmas (even > >though you are a Jewish Buddhist!) and are having a meaningful and > >memorable Hanukkah. ======================== Thanks, Dan! Happy holidays to you, and have a wonderful new year! BTW, my wife and I had an interesting Xmas: We attended our very first Xmas midnight mass (in fact our very first mass), because our future in-laws, who sing in the choir, invited us. It was lovely. Good feeling and good sentiments all around. (Folks didn't even look at us "funny" when we didn't use the bench for bowing and when we didn't go up for the eucharist! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54040 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination nilovg Hi Tep, op 28-12-2005 15:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: But the "gradually > developing right understanding of the reality appearing now" is not > easy to understand. Why? Because there is a mismatch between the slow, > erroneous understanding of a non-Ariyan and the extremely-fast > arising-and-dissolving phenomena that are happening. We are out of > phase, out of synch with the ultimate realities. So what we are > observing or contemplating in the present moment is not an ultimate > reality that just appears and dissolves in an interval smaller than a > nanosecond. ----- N:You have a good remark. We discussed this in India and I am in the process of writing about it. This is the question of the sankhaaranimitta. So, it does not matter that seeing has fallen away, very rapidly after that there is again seeing. Or visible object, it impinges on eyesense again and again. It is possible to understand more and more clearly the characteristics of nama and rupa. When I say, gradual understanding I do not refer to any duration of time, but to pañña that grows. -------- > > Tep: So you say we start from our low level of understanding that is > not yet a "clear knowledge". You've said many times before that all we > have to do is listening and considering the Dhamma and accumulate > kusala through dana, anussati, and vipassana ------- N: There are only citta and cetasikas performing their functions. Also while listening. ---------- T:(e.g. seeing anatta in > the rupa & nama -- although I think what you think you "see" may not > be the ultimate reality). ------- N: Not yet, when time comes. Citta and cetasikas performing their functions. --------- T:You also claim that there is no need for > samatha-vipassana bhavana, no anapanasati, no nekkhamma, no > kayagata-sati kammatthana, no seclusion. ------- N: Nekkhamma is a perfection, it is together with any kind of kusala. Seclusion: has a mental meaning also: without defilements. Whatever kind of bhavana someone is inclined to: they are all cetasikas conditioned by former accumulations. ------ T: Is the above what you mean by "the right Path" to clearer > understanding and to become a sotapanna? ------- N: The right Path: please look at Ven. Samahita's sutta quotes yesterday and today. That is the right Path. > ....................... > >> N: We have to investigate the citta at that moment. -------- > Tep: If the term "investigate" you are using here is in the > conventional sense, then "to investigate the citta at that moment" > would mean to me as to reflect or observe the thought at that moment. ----- N: there is also citta that sees, or hears, citta with anger or with generotiy, so many kinds, all arising because of their own conditions, not "us' who want them or do not want them that way. Investigating: considering and being aware of the dhamma that appears through one of the six doors. ------- T: My whole point is that it has been very confusing when I hear the > jargons of the Paramattha-dhamma mixed with the conventional language. ----- N: We talk about citta and cetasikas. ------- T: I have asked many questions not out of disrespect or a sinful > intention to find fault with you, dear Nina. I asked those questions > because I wanted clarifications. ------- N: I hope I could be of some help. Nina. 54041 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 mlnease Hi Dan (and Sarah and Jon), Hear, hear, congratulations and many thanks to The Mods for DSG. Dan, thanks again for the friendly mention--I've always found your posts among the most stimulating and encouraging to be found here. Though I'm not participating much myself these days, I look forward to following more of your fine correspondence on the list. Happy New Year to All, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 > Congratulations on establishing and maintaining an astounding dhamma > discussion group, Sarah and Jon. You have done a super job. Keep it > up! > > I joined dsg just over five years ago after finding it through a link > at nibbana.com. I raved about the group on day 1 and continue raving > about it now. Even though I haven't been very active the past two or > three years, I still think about you. > > Special thanks also to Robert, Amara, and Mike, whose dedicated and > thoughtful participation in the first year or so really helped bring > the group to life and give it a lasting soul. :) > > Dan > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: >> >> Dear Friends, >> >> Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we > have just >> uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The > rest >> should be ready before we go away in February along with the recent > India >> series). >> >> Most members (especially those who remember Erik) will particularly > enjoy >> listening to this lively part of his discussion with A.Sujin in > July 2001. >> This was his first visit to the Foundation. >> >> It may also be of special interest to those who come to DSG with >> familiarity with Mahayana teachings and for those like Phil, who > have >> requested to hear some disagreements and a little more ?heat? in > the live >> discussions:-). >> >> Howard, Larry, James, Tep, Math, Joop and all ? please do listen > and share >> any comments. And of course, ERIK! We hope you listen too and wish > to >> thank you for the good discussion. >> >> May we also take this opportunity to wish everyone here (including > all >> lurkers) not only a Happy, but even more so, a Wise New Year! >> >> Metta, >> >> Sarah (& Jon) 54042 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: rebirth. matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: Each citta that arises falls away, but it conditions the following > citta, so long as we are in the cycle of birth and death. [snip] the last citta of this life will arise, and also this citta conditions > the arising of the succeeding one, the rebirth-consciousness. > M: Yes, this was more of what I was thinking about when i first wrote to you about it. However we have to consider one thing at the point of death. That is jiivita indriya - the life faculty. If there is no life, can there be another citta? You might say another citta cannot arise in the dead body, but then i guess this is where sadda comes in - in that it can arise somewhere else atogether different. Another point, if there is some kind of distraction -say a loud noise- it can distract us away from what we were thinking/doing. Then citta becomes conditioned by an outside stimulus. So even in life, a previously smoothly flowing and coditioned line of cittas can suddenly be hijacked by something else altogether. I would think death is a powerful distractor. But then there is some 'energy' left, to give rise to another citta? This energy should be linked to craving (bhava, kama etc) and delusion, something to do with karma. Any clarification on this? I dont ever see on of my cittas suddenly arising in you (even if it didnt i wouldnt know!) so it is difficult to prove it. Unless telepathy is real!! metta Matheesha 54043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas nilovg Hi TG, just a quick remark. Also when thinking and deliberating there are feeling and saññaa since they accompany each citta. Nina. op 28-12-2005 20:11 schreef TGrand458@... op TGrand458@...: > To me it certain seems like feeling and perception precede thinking and > deliberating. 54044 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 0:49pm Subject: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma onco111 Hi all, The commentaries and Abhidhamma seem to describe clearly, faithfully, and rightly what things look like as insight progresses. Seeing sharp, clear beginnings and endings of cittas is an essential first step of development of insight. Insight into conditionality only comes with clear discernment of rise and fall and rise-and-fall. Despite the sound of the words that the Abhidhamma and commentaries use to describe it, a sharp, clear view of rise-and-fall does not give any hint of a discrete nature, a packet perspective, or dhammas as "self-existent realities, little selves", but I can see how conceptualization and theory-building can easily (and mistakenly) read such an interpretation into the descriptions. When I joined dsg over five years ago, I was inclined to reject the descriptions of the commentaries as too dismissive of conventional understandings--after all, look at all the talk about bhikkhus-doing- this-and-that, why would there be so much conventional language if momentary insights into paramattha is what the Buddha really wanted to teach? I think the answer to that is that his bhikkhus did understand the paramattha behind the stories and decided to write down the commentaries and Abhidhamma to make it clear to later generations how those suttas were to be understood, to reduce the propensity to misread the Dhamma as a conventional teaching. There are many ways to read Abhidhamma and commentaries. One is to reflect on how they relate to experience. Another is to think about how they must be wrong because they are at odds with what I think is right. It may well be that the Abhidhamma does not seem to shed light on any personal experience or knowledge, that it only seems like a list of terms thrown together in a monkish way, that it is just an elaborate theory hammered out from reason by some clever bhikkhus long after the Buddha passed away. What do we do when the commentaries seem wrong? We can either conclude: "By my understanding, the theories they are discussing are wrong"; or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are describing reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not be very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how things that I have not experienced must be wrong. Thinking about the commentaries and Abhidhamma as description rather than theory can be a real eye opener. Dan 54045 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Howard, Your "ebbs and flows,...wave after wave" description souns very much like Goenka describing what may happen during a 10-day retreat. There is of course nothing inherently wrong in that experiencing or description, but the "wave after wave" phenonema can arise quite readily as a result of concentration devoid of insight into rise-and- fall that marks discernment of what-is-and-what-is-not-the-path. Marking an understanding of rise-and-fall is a sharp, clear vision of cittas arising and passing away. What makes the perception so sharp and clear is that it is unmuddled by the tendency of our inner "rationalistic partial-eternalist" selves wrongly synthesizing dhammas into a continuity. That conventional sense of continuity is a powerful driver for creating and maintaining a strong sakayaditthi, but a sharp, clear vision of cittas shatters sense of continuity. Description of that shattering and the dissection of the shards may well SOUND like your "quantum" theory of abhidhamma, but that theory is reading a theory where there is really none to be found. With metta and appreciation, Dan > I accept paramattha dhammas as those phenomena that actually occur, > and I do distinguish paramattha dhammas from mere seemings. All that I question > is their discrete characterization. All conditioned dhammas arise and fall. > But I do not believe that need be seen as implying sharp, precise beginnings and > endings, but, rather, ebbs and flows, like wave after wave after wave. And > not only do I think that the packet perspective is likely false, but also that > this perspective is conducive to viewing paramattha dhammas as self- existent > realities, each with own-being and identity. In that view, cittas become little > agents, little selves. I see that view as replacing the notion of self by that > of a multitude of knowing entities, and as leading to a kind of pluralistic > atta-view that is contrary to the hollowness perspective so well expressed in > the Uraga Sutta and Phena Sutta and throughout the Sutta Pitaka. > > With metta, > Howard > 54046 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Dear Howard, Oh no! I thought both Jews and Catholics were supposed to marry within their respective communities! I do wish them (and their extended families) all the best. Dan > ======================== > Thanks, Dan! Happy holidays to you, and have a wonderful new year! > BTW, my wife and I had an interesting Xmas: We attended our very first Xmas > midnight mass (in fact our very first mass), because our future in- laws, who sing > in the choir, invited us. It was lovely. Good feeling and good sentiments all > around. (Folks didn't even look at us "funny" when we didn't use the bench for > bowing and when we didn't go up for the eucharist! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > 54047 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:16pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Dear Sarah, I do remember Erik (and fondly). He certainly had a way of turning up the heat (like me in that respect, but he was much friendlier). Great idea to post his discussions. I will listen as time permits. With metta and appreciation, Dan 54048 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Thanks for the kind words, Mike. I do hope to stick around for at least a few weeks. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Dan (and Sarah and Jon), > > Hear, hear, congratulations and many thanks to The Mods for DSG. Dan, > thanks again for the friendly mention--I've always found your posts among > the most stimulating and encouraging to be found here. Though I'm not > participating much myself these days, I look forward to following more of > your fine correspondence on the list. > > Happy New Year to All, > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan D." > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:26 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & > A.Sujin part1 > > > > Congratulations on establishing and maintaining an astounding dhamma > > discussion group, Sarah and Jon. You have done a super job. Keep it > > up! > > > > I joined dsg just over five years ago after finding it through a link > > at nibbana.com. I raved about the group on day 1 and continue raving > > about it now. Even though I haven't been very active the past two or > > three years, I still think about you. > > > > Special thanks also to Robert, Amara, and Mike, whose dedicated and > > thoughtful participation in the first year or so really helped bring > > the group to life and give it a lasting soul. :) > > > > Dan > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Friends, > >> > >> Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we > > have just > >> uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The > > rest > >> should be ready before we go away in February along with the recent > > India > >> series). > >> > >> Most members (especially those who remember Erik) will particularly > > enjoy > >> listening to this lively part of his discussion with A.Sujin in > > July 2001. > >> This was his first visit to the Foundation. > >> > >> It may also be of special interest to those who come to DSG with > >> familiarity with Mahayana teachings and for those like Phil, who > > have > >> requested to hear some disagreements and a little more ?heat? in > > the live > >> discussions:-). > >> > >> Howard, Larry, James, Tep, Math, Joop and all ? please do listen > > and share > >> any comments. And of course, ERIK! We hope you listen too and wish > > to > >> thank you for the good discussion. > >> > >> May we also take this opportunity to wish everyone here (including > > all > >> lurkers) not only a Happy, but even more so, a Wise New Year! > >> > >> Metta, > >> > >> Sarah (& Jon) 54049 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas TGrand458@... In a message dated 12/28/2005 12:58:35 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, just a quick remark. Also when thinking and deliberating there are feeling and saññaa since they accompany each citta. Nina. Ni Nina, chinkah and Rob M., Agreed but the way I view it is more of a cascading process where one thing leads to another and that to a next. So some feelings may be responsible for thoughts that come afterward. Even though those latter thoughts are now accompanied and structured with current feelings and perceptions. In this case, the current thoughts are supported by both "past conditions impressions" that have formed the current conditions to be what they are now. With this viewpoint, the simple answer of "simultaneous" is insufficient. TG 54050 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: Typo's Let's toodle somewhere else? ksheri3 Good Morning Tep, Sorry for the wait on my reply. Let me say this little, below, in what little time I have remaining today. Checkitout! lol --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > I am not sure you really explained what the following quote meant : > > "The senses derive from physical objects, physical objects from mind, > mind from intllect, intellect from ego, ego from the unmanifested seed, > and the unmanifested seed from Brahman--the Uncaused Cause." > > >colette: CAUSE & EFFECT, Dependent Origination. It's simply > making a statement that the mind is part of the system of our world. > Actually I believe that it has to do with the reasoning behind > Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa, (I'd love to get into the Trimsika and > Vimsatika but time time time). I don't feel that it's very fruitful to be > studying Buddhism while knowing perfectly well that this, Buddhism, is > a resultant consciousness from the Hindu. > > Tep: If you don't mind, please translate the above quote into ordinary > English that I can understand. Can you do it for me? > .................. colette: Dan Lusthaus writes: "Cognitive objects (vinaya) are real, integral parts of cognition, and thus occur within acts of consciousness. While confirming vijnaya as integral to cognitive acts, they deny that any artha (that toward which an intentionality intends, i.e., an object of intentionality) exits outside the cognitive act in which it is that which is inteded. Intentional ojbects only appear in acts of intentionality, i.e. consciousness." Now hold on since it goes on to say: "Hence questions about the ultimate reality of non-cognitive thins are simply irrelevant and useless for solving the problem of karma. Further, Yogacarins emphasize that categories such as materiality (rupa) are cognitive categories. Lets go with the above, so you cognize objects. In the process of cognition you imbue the rupa with preconceived characteristics, which is to say that you link YOUR consciousness to some other person's bandwagon. By linking your consciousness to this person's deliberately, intentionally, manifested ILLUSION, then you have subjected your-self to the problems associated, linked, to that illusion. Lets say that there are sick people in the world and they go on living their lives by advocating a class structure, stratification, and they blasphemy by suggesting that their wealth is "god-given" and RESULTANT of their "holiness" thus making them a statuary commonly found in the catacombs of Paris and Rome, (didn't Bill Bixby portray a character on Rod Serling's Night Gallery that became a statuary of some Greek or Roman making?). By stepping away from the "smoke & mirrors" psychology used by this aristocratic buffoon you can observe the relationship between "mind" and "object". Once you have grasped, I know, don't get on me about "grasping" it is a fault of being forced to use words, you can then turn your investigation, observations, "Abhidharma-like" analysis toward "intellect" and "mind" etc. ------------------------------ > > >Colette: While the debate of an eternal Self cannot be definatively > resolved while in this existance we can give ourselves options to > investigate. > > Tep: Interesting ! What are our options? And how do you suggest we > investigate the "eternal self"? colette: I LOVE IT, YES, A REAL QUESTION. Lets go trampsing about the world investigating what others have found concering this atman, this eternal self, etc. Any and all students of "ceremonial magik" for instance in the Golden Dawn line, etc, would be wise to perform such acts before blindly taking oathes to fraternities and sorrorities, covens, etc, that they know absolutely nothing about. Investigation of the eternal self as you put it would be similar to investigation of the Ain, Ain-soph, and Ain-soph-ur, the Veils of Negative Existance must be raised. Here you will find your own casket. At least that's what I found when I started such procedures back in the 80s. ----------------------- Sorry, time's up. Maybe I'll get some time later today to do this. toodles, colette 54051 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:38pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 matheesha333 Hi Sarah (and Jon), Congratulatons on your 6th anniversary! > Howard, Larry, James, Tep, Math, Joop and all – please do listen and share > any comments. You seem to have targetted us bunch for comments! So I think perhaps you are expecting us to say something more than just gushing about it! OK, the following might be a bit difficult so read only if you want to!: I agree with a lot of what was said by KS. I felt there were times when she slipped away from answering questions as well! ..or someone else in the audience seems to take over. I dont think she knows how to get to the absolute from the conceptual. There is this sense of it being an impossible distance away. She is trying very hard hoping to do this by more and more theory understanding. This is also one of the really frustrating things for me in this group! it's SO close and only if you would try a little bit ... arrrrggghhhh! There is IMO an almost unhealthy emphasis on panna, to the detriment of all other factors the buddha said was essential. Perhaps those who pride in their intellect, would be drawn to this teaching of KS. Another thing i noticed was the word panna being used almost as if it were a paramatta dhamma, as in 'panna knows'. This is a mix of conventional and ultimate, arguably better than 'I know'. After all panna is also another label. It is only sanna that gives meaning. I have not heard all of KS teachings, but my overall impression from the two sessions with Erick is that her teachings are like a small triangle which thinks it is all there is (certainly that is what she believes with good intentions), but is actually part of a much bigger triangle, perhaps making up one corner of it. There was also a bookish unwieldliness in dealing with the conceptual and seemingly using paramatta as an escape to deal with difficult (or perhaps what she thought was useless) questions. I dont think anyone who sees paramatta will have that particular problem and can switch fluidly between the two without getting it mixed up or disregarding the conventional to this degree. Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her seeming difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. I hope my comments werent too difficult. I hope people appraciate that i am speaking my mind freely and not trying to couch my language to a degree that the message becomes blurred. metta Matheesha 54052 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:41pm Subject: Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Matheesha - You're right that we do not require harmony as a requisite condition for our computer-assisted friendship. It, as well as any other conditioned dhamma, is impermanent. :-) Thank you for the apology -- it was not necessary since I already had understood you well. This well-written message of yours even made the understanding better. > M: > I find it too much of a strech of my doubting mind that rebirth > might exist and that the noble eightfold path might not be the > answer!! if the buddha says there is rebirth I take it he is > intelligent enough to find out whether the Path works to stop it as > well! > Tep: Well said. :-) ................ Tep: I find the following reasonings also agreeable, especially about the commentaries. Thanks. >M: >How can i take on some view which someone else says > i should have of the world without question? All the reasons why im > not a christian. It is the same reason i dont accept easily what is > said in the commentaries. >M: >I feel very much > like an experimenter doing my own thing with the dhamma. The suttas > are my guide. I keep a critical mind and move forward. I'm not > closed off to science or any other view which might be helpful along > the path. Reducing lobha, dosa, moha is my guide. .................. > > T: Further, for someone who doesn't have the samma-ditthi > (according to the above definition in MN9) I can understand that > > s/he will not see the big difference between a good Buddhist and a > >worldling (who doesn't have saddha in the Buddha's Teachings) > >who lives "his life minimising his suffering using many means > >material and psychological". > > >M: The difference you speak of between a buddhist and a > non buddhist is only important to me in terms how much less > suffering a buddhist must/should have. Everything else (the buddhist > world view) we take on faith. This is perhaps another reason why a > method of studying great amounts first wont work for me. Because > paramatta dhammas are taken on faith after all. > Tep: I guess a Buddhist who is endowed with the mundane right view (concerning kusala, akusala and their roots) clearly has "less suffering" than the "raw" worldlings. Don't you think so? Your view on the Paramattha-dhamma is interesting. I hope to hear from other DSG members about that ! Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Dear friend Tep, > (snipped) >The buddhadhamma isnt clear yet. We are still in the wilderness about it. lost children trying to find our way out of the forest. I think great things will happen in the next 100 years with regards to attainment. I feel very much like an experimenter doing my own thing with the dhamma. The suttas are my guide. I keep a critical mind and move forward. I'm not closed off to science or any other view which might be helpful along the path. Reducing lobha, dosa, moha is my guide. The suttas say if someone has faith in the buddha then he will go to one of the > heavens. I dont know that and i dont particularly care. All I know > is my suffering now, that the core dhamma is true and that dhamma > practice helps. The difference you speak of between a buddhist and a non buddhist is only important to me in terms how much less > suffering a buddhist must/should have. Everything else (the buddhist > world view) we take on faith. This is perhaps another reason why a > method of studying great amounts first wont work for me. Because > paramatta dhammas are taken on faith after all. > > I dont expect anyone else to feel this way. This is just what works > for me. Tep..we dont *have* to be in harmony to be friends, even > though that would be nice! > 54053 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas robmoult Hi TG, Nina, Chin Kah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 12/28/2005 12:58:35 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi TG, > just a quick remark. Also when thinking and deliberating there are feeling > and saññaa since they accompany each citta. > Nina. > > > > Ni Nina, chinkah and Rob M., > > Agreed but the way I view it is more of a cascading process where one thing > leads to another and that to a next. So some feelings may be responsible for > thoughts that come afterward. Even though those latter thoughts are now > accompanied and structured with current feelings and perceptions. In this case, > the current thoughts are supported by both "past conditions impressions" > that have formed the current conditions to be what they are now. > > With this viewpoint, the simple answer of "simultaneous" is insufficient. ===== Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" (sahajata paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates (namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform their functions simultaneously, in parallel. There are many other conditional relations between various cetasikas (for example, contact is related to the other cetasikas thought nutriment condition), but none of these conditions imply sequentiality (i.e. cetasikas within a mental state are not related through contiguity or proximity condition). Metta, Rob M :-) 54054 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:48pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and all) - The note you wrote about the real-time occurrence of ultimate realities is superb. [ N: There is only an impression or mental image, nimitta, of visible object. This conditions us to think that visible object does not fall away....Visible object impinges and is seen and then after it has fallen away there is merely the impression or mental image (nimitta) of visible object. ...We only experience the impression or sign of seeing. ...] >N: So, it does not matter that seeing has fallen away, very rapidly after that there is again seeing. Or visible object, it impinges on eyesense again and again. Tep: It matters because of two facts : 1. what we see is not the ultimate reality -- because we only see its delayed time-frame-images (like seeing a movie not the real life it self). 2. According to your posts I read in the past, mental images are concepts (pannatta) that cannot be used as objects for satipatthana. This note you are writing sounds like a new theory to me. Am I mistaken? .............. > >T: (e.g. seeing anatta in the rupa & nama -- although I think what you think you "see" may not be the ultimate reality). ------- >N: Not yet, when time comes. Citta and cetasikas performing their functions. Tep: On what basis do you base that belief? ............. >> >N: We have to investigate the citta at that moment. -------- > >Tep: If the term "investigate" you are using here is in the > conventional sense, then "to investigate the citta at that moment" > would mean to me as to reflect or observe the thought at that moment. ----- >N: there is also citta that sees, or hears, citta with anger or with generotiy, so many kinds, all arising because of their own conditions, not "us' who want them or do not want them that way. Investigating: considering and being aware of the dhamma that appears through one of the six doors. Tep: Thank you for the definition of "investigating". So the 'citta' that arises at a door is 'the dhamma' to be considered and awared of, according to this definition. But as you admitted in your note earlier, the citta is too fast and independent of "us" (whatever that word means). So you only experience an image not the real thing. ["..but we cannot pinpoint the citta which sees, it arises and falls away very rapidly and then there is another moment of seeing. We only experience the impression or sign of seeing."] In that case you don't need any special mental qualities like jhana that supports the various vipassana-nana like nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and udayabbaya-nana. Am I mistaken here? Or, you may say, "Tep, all the higher-level vipassana-nana will arise by themselves when time comes"? ................... >N: I hope I could be of some help. Tep: Yes, of course, you always have been helpful. Your unlimited patience is deeply appreciated. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 28-12-2005 15:08 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > But the "gradually > > developing right understanding of the reality appearing now" is not > > easy to understand. Why? Because there is a mismatch between the slow, > > erroneous understanding of a non-Ariyan and the extremely-fast > > arising-and-dissolving phenomena that are happening. We are out of > > phase, out of synch with the ultimate realities. So what we are > > observing or contemplating in the present moment is not an ultimate > > reality that just appears and dissolves in an interval smaller than a > > nanosecond. > ----- > N:You have a good remark. We discussed this in India and I am in the process > of writing about it. This is the question of the sankhaaranimitta. (snipped) 54055 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Tep, > Tep: I guess a Buddhist who is endowed with the mundane right view > (concerning kusala, akusala and their roots) clearly has "less suffering" > than the "raw" worldlings. Don't you think so? M: Well what is mundane right view? Belief in kamma, belief in rebirth, that there are enlightened beings, that there is mother and father. It doesnt say anything about the understanding anything else (mahacattasarika). At the very least such a person should have less suffering overall. By that I mean in his journey through samsara he should have less suffering. This does not necessarily mean that he will have less suffering in this lifetime. He mayby in a very desperate and terrible situation in this life. It depends on the individual circumstances doesnt it? I guess you could say that such people have the conditions to be happier in this lifetime. If they practice the precepts and do a bit of meditation, have some understanding of the world then they will be happier. Research has shown that meditators are a happier. Generosity, belonging to a community, having a certain amount of wealth (for layity), good companionship are known to psychology and buddhism to create happier people. metta Matheesha 54056 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/28/05 4:09:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Howard, > Your "ebbs and flows,...wave after wave" description souns very much > like Goenka describing what may happen during a 10-day retreat. ----------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't even recall anything of that sort, and it's not what I meant. What I meant is more along the lines of a hardness-experience consisting of an arising, peaking, and dissolving wave, with content and the knowing of that content rising interdependently together from a low level of intensity up through a briefly sustained maximum, and then back down again, with neither sharp beginning nor ending, but one citta dissolving into the next. This is what I seem to be aware of. Of course reality may not be that way. But if it is, all that the Buddha teaches in the suttas still holds, I believe. ---------------------------------- There > > is of course nothing inherently wrong in that experiencing or > description, but the "wave after wave" phenonema can arise quite > readily as a result of concentration devoid of insight into rise-and- > fall that marks discernment of what-is-and-what-is-not-the-path. -------------------------------------- Howard: But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ordinary flow of experience, of cittas and cetasikas. (I'm not really clear about what you are talking about here.) ------------------------------------- > Marking an understanding of rise-and-fall is a sharp, clear vision of > cittas arising and passing away. What makes the perception so sharp > and clear is that it is unmuddled by the tendency of our > inner "rationalistic partial-eternalist" selves wrongly synthesizing > dhammas into a continuity. That conventional sense of continuity is a > > powerful driver for creating and maintaining a strong sakayaditthi, > but a sharp, clear vision of cittas shatters sense of continuity. ----------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, and as I described it above, reality is neither a discrete nor a continuous one, but something else entirely. And more important than that is that it needn't be either way, discrete or as I see it, for the tilakkhana to be true. And in any case, all our pictures are just that - pictures, and none are satisfactory. ----------------------------------------- > Description of that shattering and the dissection of the shards may > well SOUND like your "quantum" theory of abhidhamma, but that theory > is reading a theory where there is really none to be found. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, if there is no theory, that's just fine! --------------------------------------- > > With metta and appreciation, > > Dan > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54057 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/28/05 4:22:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Dear Howard, > Oh no! I thought both Jews and Catholics were supposed to marry > within their respective communities! ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, see? That's whatcha get when you throw a Buddhist parent into the mix! LOL! ----------------------------------- I do wish them (and their > > extended families) all the best. --------------------------------- Howard: Thank you!! :-) --------------------------------- > > Dan > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54058 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, Just out of curiosity, do you remember any specific moments from your Goenka retreat? As I think back on my intensive meditation retreats in the past, I remember a handful of moments quite clearly and then some generalized stories and impressions. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Dan - > > In a message dated 12/28/05 4:09:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > onco111@y... writes: > > > Howard, > > Your "ebbs and flows,...wave after wave" description souns very much > > like Goenka describing what may happen during a 10-day retreat. > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I don't even recall anything of that sort, and it's not what I > meant. What I meant is more along the lines of a hardness- experience consisting > of an arising, peaking, and dissolving wave, with content and the knowing of > that content rising interdependently together from a low level of intensity up > through a briefly sustained maximum, and then back down again, with neither > sharp beginning nor ending, but one citta dissolving into the next. This is what > I seem to be aware of. Of course reality may not be that way. But if it is, > all that the Buddha teaches in the suttas still holds, I believe. > ---------------------------------- > There > > > is of course nothing inherently wrong in that experiencing or > > description, but the "wave after wave" phenonema can arise quite > > readily as a result of concentration devoid of insight into rise- and- > > fall that marks discernment of what-is-and-what-is-not-the-path. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ordinary > flow of experience, of cittas and cetasikas. (I'm not really clear about what > you are talking about here.) > ------------------------------------- > > > Marking an understanding of rise-and-fall is a sharp, clear vision of > > cittas arising and passing away. What makes the perception so sharp > > and clear is that it is unmuddled by the tendency of our > > inner "rationalistic partial-eternalist" selves wrongly synthesizing > > dhammas into a continuity. That conventional sense of continuity is a > > > powerful driver for creating and maintaining a strong sakayaditthi, > > but a sharp, clear vision of cittas shatters sense of continuity. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > As I see it, and as I described it above, reality is neither a > discrete nor a continuous one, but something else entirely. And more important than > that is that it needn't be either way, discrete or as I see it, for the > tilakkhana to be true. And in any case, all our pictures are just that - pictures, > and none are satisfactory. > ----------------------------------------- > > > Description of that shattering and the dissection of the shards may > > well SOUND like your "quantum" theory of abhidhamma, but that theory > > is reading a theory where there is really none to be found. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, if there is no theory, that's just fine! > --------------------------------------- > > > > > With metta and appreciation, > > > > Dan > > > =================== > With metta, > Howard > 54059 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/28/05 8:47:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Just out of curiosity, do you remember any specific moments from your > Goenka retreat? As I think back on my intensive meditation retreats > in the past, I remember a handful of moments quite clearly and then > some generalized stories and impressions. > > Metta, > Dan > ========================== As far as the teaching (on videotape) by Goenka, there was not much memorable except the soothing quality of his voice (which, BTW, find Khun Sujin has as well), and the pleasantness of his chanting. What is most memorable from the retreat for me was the meditation itself and the "no-self" experience I had one evening. One other thing I remember was what one of the assistant teachers pointed out to me to the effect that paying attention to sensations at the center-points of hands and feet is method of calming oneself. (It worked for me.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54060 From: "Larry" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:49pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Only six years? Geez, it seems like a lot longer, maybe sixteen:-)) Thanks for the audio file. In the first talk I agree with A. Sujin, reality is to be found with conventional reasoning in ordinary experience. No need to resort to authority. I never thought of the three kinds of dukkha as levels of increasing subtlety, but that's a good way to look at it. Any kind of change is dukkha, not just cessation of pleasant feeling. I think you would have to be [unfortunately?] very sensitive to see this. Possibly pervasive dukkha is beyond the range of most of us. The second talk was a little too scattered with lots of fast talking. Instead of saying panna understands reality, maybe we could say panna is the understanding of reality, no doer. Panna is only one player in a complex scenario. Erik raised a question for me of how do we recognize nibbana if we've never seen it before. Any ideas? I'm on a modem with a very slow computer and it took about 40 minutes to download each talk. So, it's doable. A. Sujin has a good, clear voice. Just right. Keep up the good work, mods. Larry 54061 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:45pm Subject: Yoniso Manasikaaro --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma abhidhammika Dear Dan D and all How are you? Dan wrote: "or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are describing reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not be very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how things that I have not experienced must be wrong." The Buddha has a technical term for your reflection. It is called "yoniso manasikaaro", sensible mental positioning. And, the Buddha also teaches that yoniso manasikaaro is a pre- requisite for the Right View, sammaadi.t.thi. Happy New Year! Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: Hi all, The commentaries and Abhidhamma seem to describe clearly, faithfully, and rightly what things look like as insight progresses. Seeing sharp, clear beginnings and endings of cittas is an essential first step of development of insight. Insight into conditionality only comes with clear discernment of rise and fall and rise-and-fall. Despite the sound of the words that the Abhidhamma and commentaries use to describe it, a sharp, clear view of rise-and-fall does not give any hint of a discrete nature, a packet perspective, or dhammas as "self-existent realities, little selves", but I can see how conceptualization and theory-building can easily (and mistakenly) read such an interpretation into the descriptions. When I joined dsg over five years ago, I was inclined to reject the descriptions of the commentaries as too dismissive of conventional understandings--after all, look at all the talk about bhikkhus-doing- this-and-that, why would there be so much conventional language if momentary insights into paramattha is what the Buddha really wanted to teach? I think the answer to that is that his bhikkhus did understand the paramattha behind the stories and decided to write down the commentaries and Abhidhamma to make it clear to later generations how those suttas were to be understood, to reduce the propensity to misread the Dhamma as a conventional teaching. There are many ways to read Abhidhamma and commentaries. One is to reflect on how they relate to experience. Another is to think about how they must be wrong because they are at odds with what I think is right. It may well be that the Abhidhamma does not seem to shed light on any personal experience or knowledge, that it only seems like a list of terms thrown together in a monkish way, that it is just an elaborate theory hammered out from reason by some clever bhikkhus long after the Buddha passed away. What do we do when the commentaries seem wrong? We can either conclude: "By my understanding, the theories they are discussing are wrong"; or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are describing reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not be very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how things that I have not experienced must be wrong. Thinking about the commentaries and Abhidhamma as description rather than theory can be a real eye opener. Dan 54062 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas TGrand458@... Hi Rob M, All, In a message dated 12/28/2005 4:38:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: > In a message dated 12/28/2005 12:58:35 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi TG, > just a quick remark. Also when thinking and deliberating there are feeling > and saññaa since they accompany each citta. > Nina. > > > > Ni Nina, chinkah and Rob M., > > Agreed but the way I view it is more of a cascading process where one thing > leads to another and that to a next. So some feelings may be responsible for > thoughts that come afterward. Even though those latter thoughts are now > accompanied and structured with current feelings and perceptions. In this case, > the current thoughts are supported by both "past conditions impressions" > that have formed the current conditions to be what they are now. > > With this viewpoint, the simple answer of "simultaneous" is insufficient. ===== Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" (sahajata paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates (namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). TG: Not sure what you're disagreeing with since I made the point that they do arise simultaneously...and in sequence. To deny the sequential aspect is to deny "the past" IMO. This is not to say that the past enters the present, but it is to say that the present has been structured by the past. I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform their functions simultaneously, in parallel. TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no sequential component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? There are many other conditional relations between various cetasikas (for example, contact is related to the other cetasikas thought nutriment condition), but none of these conditions imply sequentiality (i.e. cetasikas within a mental state are not related through contiguity or proximity condition). TG: That's not my experience! Clearly, as far as I'm concerned, one thought leads to another: each feeling leads to new perceptions. Abhidhamma seems to tend to interpretations that digitize things into "point moments" of "substantial-ness" far too much for my taste or for what matches the Buddha's presentation IMO. The present is a phantom of the past. What is experienced are phantoms. “Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk (coreless), And consciousness like an illusion, (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952 – 953) Metta, Rob M :-) TG 54063 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:31pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas robmoult Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > ===== > > Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the > technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" (sahajata > paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence > condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates > (namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence > condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three > other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda > (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). > > TG: Not sure what you're disagreeing with since I made the point that they > do arise simultaneously...and in sequence. ===== I would have thought that simultaenous and sequential are "either / or". Not clear how something can be both. ===== > > To deny the sequential aspect is > to deny "the past" IMO. This is not to say that the past enters the present, > but it is to say that the present has been structured by the past. > ===== The way that it is explained in the Abhidhamma is that a mental state (citta) arises together with its group of cetasikas and then falls away completely. The falling away of a mental state is a condition for the arising of another mental state with its associated cetasikas. Certainly, mental states arise sequentially and condition each other through natural decisive support, proximity, contiguity, etc. conditions. It this way there is progression and the present is conditioned by the past. ===== > > > I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing > their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform > their functions simultaneously, in parallel. > TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no sequential > component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? ===== Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and cetasikas within a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). ===== > > There are many other conditional relations between various cetasikas > (for example, contact is related to the other cetasikas thought > nutriment condition), but none of these conditions imply > sequentiality (i.e. cetasikas within a mental state are not related > through contiguity or proximity condition). > > TG: That's not my experience! Clearly, as far as I'm concerned, one > thought leads to another: each feeling leads to new perceptions. ===== One thought does lead to another, but each thought is a different mental state (or set of mental states, depending on how one defines things). Within each mental state there are a discrete set of cetasikas which are only associated with that one mental state. ===== > > Abhidhamma seems to tend to interpretations that digitize things into "point > moments" of "substantial-ness" far too much for my taste or for what matches > the Buddha's presentation IMO. The present is a phantom of the past. What > is experienced are phantoms. ===== I agree that some people do not like the analytical approach taken by the Abhidhamma... but I am not one of those people :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54064 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas TGrand458@... Hi Rob M. Thanks for the feedback. Just a few remarks below... In a message dated 12/28/2005 11:32:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > ===== > > Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the > technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" (sahajata > paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence > condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates > (namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence > condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three > other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda > (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). > > TG: Not sure what you're disagreeing with since I made the point that they > do arise simultaneously...and in sequence. ===== I would have thought that simultaenous and sequential are "either / or". Not clear how something can be both. TG: If the sequential is eliminated, experience is impossible. On a phonograph, a needle pressing down on a revolving record is both simultaneously contacting the record and sequentially contacting the record. If the needle is not simultaneously contacting the record, it means it is not touching the record and there is no sound experience. If it is not sequentially touching the record, it means the rotation has stopped and there is no sound experience. ===== > > To deny the sequential aspect is > to deny "the past" IMO. This is not to say that the past enters the present, > but it is to say that the present has been structured by the past. > ===== The way that it is explained in the Abhidhamma is that a mental state (citta) arises together with its group of cetasikas and then falls away completely. The falling away of a mental state is a condition for the arising of another mental state with its associated cetasikas. TG: This idea has always seemed to me a violation of the law of dependent origination. I.E., it is a contradiction of that law to say -- "This not being, that is." Certainly, mental states arise sequentially and condition each other through natural decisive support, proximity, contiguity, etc. conditions. It this way there is progression and the present is conditioned by the past. TG: This seems to accord with what I'm saying. ===== > > > I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing > their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform > their functions simultaneously, in parallel. > TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no sequential > component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? ===== Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and cetasikas within a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). TG: Let's translate the whole thing and see what's being said. Since cetasikas are mental states...what you said is -- Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and mental states within a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). I can't figure that out, other than that you are saying that they ARE both simultaneous and sequential. But that statement, agreeing with my idea, is a contradiction of your stated idea, I believe. I think you're saying that the "individual group" of mental states as a "simultaneous package" does arise sequentially as a continuous flow of "mental state groups." So each group is caused by other groups and other aspects of other groups. For example: a smell in a previous group of "simultaneous mental states" might trigger a memory/thought in a subsequent group of "simultaneous mental states." If that's is what you are saying, I agree. But then I think we have to concede that a prior "feeling" is a condition for a "subsequent thought." I would agree with all of that but I'm not sure if you would. ===== > > There are many other conditional relations between various cetasikas > (for example, contact is related to the other cetasikas thought > nutriment condition), but none of these conditions imply > sequentiality (i.e. cetasikas within a mental state are not related > through contiguity or proximity condition). > > TG: That's not my experience! Clearly, as far as I'm concerned, one > thought leads to another: each feeling leads to new perceptions. ===== One thought does lead to another, but each thought is a different mental state (or set of mental states, depending on how one defines things). Within each mental state there are a discrete set of cetasikas which are only associated with that one mental state. TG: I strongly disagree that they are ONLY associated with that one mental state. Their entire "being" is dependent on prior mental states. ===== > > Abhidhamma seems to tend to interpretations that digitize things into "point > moments" of "substantial-ness" far too much for my taste or for what matches > the Buddha's presentation IMO. The present is a phantom of the past. What > is experienced are phantoms. ===== I agree that some people do not like the analytical approach taken by the Abhidhamma... but I am not one of those people :-) TG: I like Abhidhamma's analytical approach. I just disagree with some of the ways it's interpreted. Metta, Rob M :-) TG 54065 From: limchinkah Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas limchinkah I wonder if this simile makes sense: A team of project members (comprising the Chairperson and the committee members) gather together at the SAME TIME. The Chairperson starts the meeting. At the appropriate time, the various members of the committee presents their status reports. The Project Engineer presents the status of the project; the Project Treasurer presents the financial status of the project; etc, etc. The Project Secretary keeps track of the proceedings. At the end of the meeting, the Chairperson and the committee members leave together at the SAME TIME. In this simile, the Chairperson is the Citta and the committee members are the Cetasikas. Coming together at the SAME TIME signifies the arising of Citta and Cetasikas simultaneously at the SAME TIME. Taking turns to present their reports signify that the cetasikas take turns to "play their respective roles/functions" otherwise they "stay in the background" observing the situation. The Project Secretary plays the role of the "vitality' or Jivitindriya (one of the seven Universal cetasikas) to keep the meeting going. Leaving together at the SAME TIME signifies the passing of Citta and Cetasikas simultaneously at the SAME TIME. This simile implies that the Citta and ALL Cetasikas arise together at the same time. However, the cetasikas "take turns" to play their roles. Some cetasikas play their roles throughout the entire lifespan of the Citta. Some cetasikas play their roles only at the beginning of the lifespan; some in the middle and some play their roles towards the end of the lifespan. When they do not play any role, they "stay in the backgound". metta, chinkah robmoult wrote: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > ===== > > Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the > technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" (sahajata > paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence > condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates > (namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence > condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three > other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda > (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). > > TG: Not sure what you're disagreeing with since I made the point that they > do arise simultaneously...and in sequence. ===== I would have thought that simultaenous and sequential are "either / or". Not clear how something can be both. ===== > > To deny the sequential aspect is > to deny "the past" IMO. This is not to say that the past enters the present, > but it is to say that the present has been structured by the past. > ===== The way that it is explained in the Abhidhamma is that a mental state (citta) arises together with its group of cetasikas and then falls away completely. The falling away of a mental state is a condition for the arising of another mental state with its associated cetasikas. Certainly, mental states arise sequentially and condition each other through natural decisive support, proximity, contiguity, etc. conditions. It this way there is progression and the present is conditioned by the past. ===== > > > I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing > their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform > their functions simultaneously, in parallel. > TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no sequential > component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? ===== Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and cetasikas within a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). ===== > > There are many other conditional relations between various cetasikas > (for example, contact is related to the other cetasikas thought > nutriment condition), but none of these conditions imply > sequentiality (i.e. cetasikas within a mental state are not related > through contiguity or proximity condition). > > TG: That's not my experience! Clearly, as far as I'm concerned, one > thought leads to another: each feeling leads to new perceptions. ===== One thought does lead to another, but each thought is a different mental state (or set of mental states, depending on how one defines things). Within each mental state there are a discrete set of cetasikas which are only associated with that one mental state. ===== > > Abhidhamma seems to tend to interpretations that digitize things into "point > moments" of "substantial-ness" far too much for my taste or for what matches > the Buddha's presentation IMO. The present is a phantom of the past. What > is experienced are phantoms. ===== I agree that some people do not like the analytical approach taken by the Abhidhamma... but I am not one of those people :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54066 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Planarian Worms and unique streams of consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Chris (& Robert K), I hope you’re having a peaceful and enjoyable holiday season! I’d like to add a little more to Rob’s helpful comments. You may recall that the same question of ‘worms cut in half’ came up (and can be heard) at the end of the Sri Lanka discussions. I just listened to it again. After the question, there was some discussion about transplants and hand grafts with cittas arising at the new hand transplanted and so on. K.Sujin’s response was to stress that worms and hands are just concepts and that instead of thinking in terms of concepts such as worms or hands, it’s more useful to think in terms of namas and rupas. What arises are merely such namas and rupas. They arise by conditions and don’t belong to anyone or any worm:-). They perform their function and then fall away instantly. We see them as worms, say they’re worms, but actually they’re only ever namas and rupas experienced. When we see a worm, really it’s just visible object, when we touch it, it’s just tangible object – hardness or coldness or other rupas appearing, ‘that’s all!’. When we say there is one worm or two worms, that is thinking about what is seen. We can call it a worm, but there’s only seeing at this moment (or that moment) which sees. Some friends here may say, ‘but there really is a worm! The suttas don’t teach that that there is only nama and rupa!’ Here, I’m reminded of some of the suttas in Nidanasamyutta, SN. For example, 12:65 ‘The City’(Bodhi transl) ..... “Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘This consciousness turns back; it does not go further than name-and-form. It is to this extent that one may be born and age and die, pass away and be reborn, that is, when there is consciousness with name-and-form as its condition, and name-and-form with consciousness as its condition.” [S: nama includes consciousness and name (nama)- the latter refer to the cetasikas. Rupa of course is translated here as form] ..... Footnotes from the commentaries: “Spk: ‘To this extent one may be born (ettaavataa jaayetha vaa), etc’: With consciousness as a condition for name-and-form, and with name-and-form as a condition for consciousness, to this extent one may be born and undergo rebirth. What is there beyond this that can be born or undergo rebirth? Isn’t it just this that is born and undergoes rebirth?” ..... “Spk-pt: ‘To this extent’: that is, by the occurrence of consciousness and name-and-form mutually supporting one another. ‘One may be born and undergo rebirth’: Though the expression ‘A being is born and undergoes rebirth’ is used, there is nothing that serves as the referent of the designation ‘a being’ apart from the consciousness and name-and-form. Hence the commentator says, ‘What is there beyond this?’ ‘Just this (etadeva)’: namely, the pair consciousness and name-and-form.” .... S: To stress the point, there is nothing other than nama and rupa that ‘is born and undergoes rebirth’. There is no other being or worm at all. Also, from the previous sutta, 12:64 ‘If There is Lust’ ..... “At Savatthi. ‘Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those seeking a new existence. ‘If, bhikkhus, there is lust for the nutriment edible food, if there is delight, if there is craving, consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Wherever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth, there is a descent of name-and-form....’ “ ..... “Spk explains lust (raaga), delight (nandii), and craving (ta.nhaa) as synonyms for greed (lobha). ‘Consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth (pati.t.tha.m tattha vi~n~naa.na.m viruu.lha.m)’: having impelled a kamma, it ‘becomes established and comes to growth’ through its ability to drag along a rebirth. ..... “Spk-pt [to same phrase used in 12:38]: ...when, having impelled kamma, it has grown, produced roots, through its ability to precipitate rebirth, ‘there is the production of future renewed existence’, i.e, production consisting in renewed existence.” ..... S: By kamma, decisive support and other conditions, nama and rupa continue to arise and fall on and on. No worm, no being at all:-). Thanks for the opportunity to reflect further. Metta, Sarah ========== 54067 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:53pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 346- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[p] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] Those who are not ariyans have not realized the four noble Truths and they may still have doubt about realities. The sotåpanna sees realities as they are, he has eradicated doubt completely. We read in the suttas that the sotåpanna has “crossed over doubt”. We read, for example, in the Middle Length Sayings (II, no. 91, Brahmåyusutta) about Brahmåyu: * "...Having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma, plunged into dhamma, having crossed over doubt, put away uncertainty and attained without another’s help to full confidence in the Teacher’s instruction..." * The sotåpanna still has to continue to develop satipaììhåna, but he is sure to be eventually liberated from the cycle of birth and death. He is full of confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. His confidence is unshakable and thus he has no more doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Those who have not attained enlightenment need to listen often to the Dhamma and to be reminded to be aware of realities in order to eradicate doubt. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 54068 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:57pm Subject: Re: The proximate cause of Sati (=Awareness) ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Someone wisely asked: >What is the proximate cause of Sati (=Awareness) ? No. 1 is IMHO - Clear Comprehension - of the current and actual state!!! And what is such Clear Comprehension (Sampajañña) ? When walking, one understands: 'I am walking..' When standing, one knows: 'I am standing..' If sitting, one notes: 'I am sitting down now..' While lying down, one reflects: 'I am lying down..' When moving forward or returning, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When looking forward or away, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When bending or extending a limb, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When dressing or carrying things, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When eating, drinking, & chewing, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When defecating and urinating, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When walking, standing & sitting, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When falling asleep and waking up, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. When talking and dwelling in silence, one clearly comprehends exactly that.. This is Acute and Clear Comprehension (Sampajañña) ! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 54069 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:17pm Subject: Like Milk and Water ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Leaving all Dispute & Quarrel enables Social Harmony! The Blessed Buddha once said: When this subtle Dhamma has been taught by me, in many various ways, using different methods of explanation, then it is only to be expected that those, who cannot agree, accept, allow, & approve of what really is well stated and well spoken by others, that they will become angry, quarrelsome and start disputes, where they will stab each other with verbal daggers! Yet too, when this sublime Dhamma has been taught by me, in many variable ways, using diverse methods of explanation, it is also only to be expected, that those, who can agree, accept, allow, and approve of what really is well formulated and well spoken of by others, that they will live in harmony, in calm, friendly and mutual appreciation, without arguments, blending like milk and water, regarding each other with kind eyes. In this very way can they come to sleep with open doors and dance with their children in their arms ... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [225] Section 36: On Feeling. The Carpenter Pancakanga: 19. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54070 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: Cetasikas robmoult Hi TG, Lim and all, My choice of terms has created unecesssary confusion. In the Abhidhamma, the term "citta" is used in two ways: - Consciousness (one of the paramattha dhammas) = vinnana - Mental State = consciousness + collection of mental factors (cetasikas) In other words, when I type "mental state", I mean a collection of consciousness and cetasikas. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M. > > Thanks for the feedback. Just a few remarks below... > > In a message dated 12/28/2005 11:32:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi TG, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > ===== > > > > Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the > > technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" > (sahajata > > paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence > > condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates > > (namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence > > condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three > > other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda > > (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). > > > > TG: Not sure what you're disagreeing with since I made the point > that they > > do arise simultaneously...and in sequence. > > ===== > > I would have thought that simultaenous and sequential are "either / > or". Not clear how something can be both. > > TG: If the sequential is eliminated, experience is impossible. On a > phonograph, a needle pressing down on a revolving record is both simultaneously > contacting the record and sequentially contacting the record. If the needle is > not simultaneously contacting the record, it means it is not touching the > record and there is no sound experience. If it is not sequentially touching the > record, it means the rotation has stopped and there is no sound experience. > ===== Okay, I understand your analogy - and I also really liked Chin Kah's analogy of the board meeting. They both make it clear how something can be simultaneous and sequential from different perspectives. All I can do is repeat that the Patthana has two different terms for simultaneous and sequential and describes cetasikas under simultaneous and mental states (= consciousness + collection of cetasikas as a group) as sequential. ===== > > > ===== > > > > To deny the sequential aspect is > > to deny "the past" IMO. This is not to say that the past enters > the present, > > but it is to say that the present has been structured by the past. > > > ===== > > The way that it is explained in the Abhidhamma is that a mental state > (citta) arises together with its group of cetasikas and then falls > away completely. The falling away of a mental state is a condition > for the arising of another mental state with its associated cetasikas. > > TG: This idea has always seemed to me a violation of the law of dependent > origination. I.E., it is a contradiction of that law to say -- "This not > being, that is." > ===== Sorry, I am confused. I understand dependent origination as a description of how ignorance and craving bind us to samsara. I don't see dependent origination as having context when discussing the components of a mental state or the stream of mental states within a thought process. ===== > > > Certainly, mental states arise sequentially and condition each other > through natural decisive support, proximity, contiguity, etc. > conditions. It this way there is progression and the present is > conditioned by the past. > > TG: This seems to accord with what I'm saying. > ===== I am glad that we can find something that we agree upon :-) Seriously, I suspect that our problem is one of semantics and definition, not really any fundamental disagreement. ===== > > > ===== > > > > > > I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing > > their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform > > their functions simultaneously, in parallel. > > TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no > sequential > > component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? > > ===== > > Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and cetasikas within > a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). > > TG: Let's translate the whole thing and see what's being said. Since > cetasikas are mental states... ===== Sorry to cut you off in mid-sentence, but I suspect that my non- clarity in my definitions created this confusion. Sorry about that. ===== > > TG: I strongly disagree that they are ONLY associated with that one mental > state. Their entire "being" is dependent on prior mental states. > ===== There are may conditional relations at work. Through contiguity condition, the falling away of one "consciousness + set of cetasikas" is a condition for the arising of new "consciousness + set of cetasikas". My point is that consciousness and the set of associated cetasikas arise as a complete unit; indivisible, not in stages. Frankly, I am not speaking from personal experience, merely parroting what is in the texts. If you agree that this is what the texts say, but you do not accept this, then I am okay with that. Metta, Rob M :-) 54071 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:09am Subject: Re: ethical considerations jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > on innocence: ...... Dear Connie Connie: " on innocence: "everyone should practice jhaana"... well, so we would if we did, i reckon, but what's real now? feeling... pessimistic, you say. no doubt. again, who cares? maa.na / ego, pride, measure(ment). Joop: I'm sorry, I don't understand this words. I have not stated that everyone should practice jhana; or do you translate in this way my idea that we should practice all eight aspects of the NEP? Connie: " what is your favorite color?" Joop: I don't have a favorite color; that's one of the many things about which I don't have an opinion. Connie: "What's with the 500 years? a lifetime is only a single thought moment long. What would it change for you now if the True Dharma Age is ended? " Joop: au contraire; I don't think it ended after 500 years. And it would change for me if I could not have heard of read the Dhamma; but I have so it's a theoretical problem. Connie: " and soon there are seven suns in the sky." Joop: I didn't know this story, fascinating, but perhaps too hot with seven suns? Connie: " i look at my own mind and see so much that is not pleasantly attractive, but evidently i'm attracted to filth... like a pig, AdMired." Joop: Come on Connie, don't think so negative about yourself, better don't think at all about yourself, or think of yourself as something empty. And what does mean you wordplay "AdMired" ? Connie: "Please give me a positive/attractive expression of: << I undertake the training precept of obstention from dancing, sining, music, and contortionist shows. >> Joop: "obstention" does not occur in my dictionary (between "obstacle" and "obstetric"), perhaps "abstinention"? "contortionist" in my dictionary is something as "rotating"; but who rotates in shows? But your question in general; my answer: I like to life as pure as possible, with in my leisure time activities as walking, sitting silent, listening to J.S.Bach. And you? BTW, what do you know on my question on "adhamma" in #54030? Metta Joop 54072 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > For those using a modem rather than a broadband connection, the > downloading may take too long. In due course when these sets are finished, > we can send you out a cd. Please be patient! > ================ > I would like to listen to this heated discussion, but, alas, I have a dial-up connection. I will await the release of the CD. ;-)) Metta, James 54073 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:24am Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Whatever kind of > bhavana someone is inclined to: they are all cetasikas conditioned by former > accumulations. > ------ This statement is a little confusing because you are mixing ultimate and conventional reality. And in a grammatical sense, you have a dangling modifier. I can't tell if you are saying that bhavanas are cetasikas or people are cetasikas. Either way, it is still confusing. Regardless, I think I still get the gist of what you are saying, but I have a question: by "former accumulations" do you mean in former lifetimes? Couldn't the accumulations which condition bhavana develop in this lifetime? Didn't the Buddha teach a path of mental cultivation to condition bhavana development in this lifetime? Metta, James 54074 From: nina Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:31am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 211 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 211 Intro: The five khandhas have been taught in a specific order: first ruupakkhandha is mentioned, then the khandhas of feeling, saññaa, the formations and consciousness. The Visuddhimagga first explains the many ways in which the expression Œas to order¹ , kamato, is used. There is here an elaboration on the word meaning, so that it is clearly known what Œas to order², kamato, implies. Among the five meanings only the order of teaching, desanaakkamo, is applicable to the khandhas. In the following paragraphs the reasons of this will be given. --------- Text Vis.: 1. Herein, 'as to order': order is of several kinds, namely order of arising, order of abandoning, order of practice, order of plane, order of teaching. Herein, 'First there comes to be the fetus in the first stage, then there comes to be the fetus in the second stage' (S.I,206), etc., is 'order of arising'. 'Things to be abandoned by seeing, things to be abandoned by development' (Dhs., p.1), etc., is 'order of abandoning'. ------ N:The defilements that are abandoned by seeing or insight (dassana) are those eradicated by the streamwinner. His path-consciousness is called seeing, since there is the seeing of nibbana for the first time. The defilements abandoned by cultivation (bhaavanaa) are those abandoned by arahatship. The Tiika explains that there is an order of abandoning: what has to be abandoned first, is first mentioned, what has to be abandoned secondly, is mentioned as second. -------- Text Vis.: 'Purification of virtue ... purification of consciousness' (M.I,148), etc., is 'order of practice'. ------- N: Here the reference is to: siilavisuddhi, citta visuddhi, paññaa visuddhi. We have to note the word: purity, visuddhi. There is no purity without paññaa of the level of vipassanaa. Thus there is reference here to the order of higher levels of practice. --------- Text Vis.: 'The sense sphere, the fine-materialsphere' (Ps.i,83) etc., is 'order of plane'. ------- N: The Tiika states that the four planes of citta are classified in the order of being successively more superior. Thus, as to the four planes of citta which are the plane of the sense sphere, of rúpajhåna, of arúpajhåna and of lokuttara, each of the following planes is superior to the former, the lokuttara plane being the highest plane of citta. --------- 'Text Vis.: The four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, (D.ii,120), etc., or 'Talk on giving, talk on virtue' (M.i,379), etc., is 'order of teaching'. ----- N: As to the four foundations of mindfulness, sati can be aware of rupa, feeling, citta or any other dhamma at any given moment. It occurs at one moment and has as object either naama or ruupa. There is no specific order for sati. The exposition of the four foundations of mindfulness is according to the order of teaching. The Tiika explains as to giving, daana, virtue, siila and mental development, bhaavana, that these are spoken of as being subsequently more superior, (anupubbukka.msa), but here the order of teaching is referred to. ****** Nina 54075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth. nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 28-12-2005 20:40 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > N: Each citta that arises falls away, but it conditions the following >> citta, ... > M: However we have to consider one thing at the > point of death. That is jiivita indriya - the life faculty. If there > is no life, can there be another citta? You might say another citta > cannot arise in the dead body, but then i guess this is where sadda > comes in - in that it can arise somewhere else altogether different. ------ N: There are two kinds of life faculty, one is rupa, arising in each group originated from kamma. One is nama, accompanying each citta, but we do not speak about that now. After the dying-consciousness has fallen away, there is what we call a corpse. These are rupas originated from temperature. There are no more rupas originated from citta, kamma and nutrition arising. But kamma conditions the rebirth-consciousness and rupas of a new life, if one is reborn in a plane where there are five khandhas, nama and rupa. Why are people so different from birth on? People answer "genes', but this does not solve the problem. Why are genes mixed and combined in such or such a way? Sarah taught identical twins and found them very different. We can notice that we all have different talents, capabilities, inclinations. These things must have conditions stemming from the past. You may find accumulated inclinations a difficult notion perhaps? It is a fact that we can notice now: what we learnt is not lost. Each citta falls away, but all accumulations are carried on from moment to moment. When we consider the first moment of our life, also the question of another life after this one may become more understandable. This life was preceded by another life, and evenso the present life will be followed by a next life. What we mean by life is actually a long series of cittas succeeding one another very rapidly. All these things you do not have to accept with faith. When you reflect on them you may find them reasonable. You said that one has to accept paramattha dhammas by faith, but paramattha dhammas are citta, cetasika and rupa, I do not speak of the unconditioned paramattha dhamma. Many among the paramattha dhammas can be verified, like lobha, dosa, seeing, hardness. You do not have to accept them with faith. I was working on an answer to your former post on rebirth, and this will be later on. -------- M: Another point, if there is some kind of distraction -say a loud > noise- it can distract us away from what we were thinking/doing. > Then citta becomes conditioned by an outside stimulus. So even in life, a previously smoothly flowing and coditioned line of cittas > can suddenly be hijacked by something else altogether. I would think > death is a powerful distractor. ----- N: This happens all the time: citta thinks of what was formerly experienced, and in between there is seeing, or hearing, thus sense objects impinging. Then thinking about these again, or thinking about events, people, etc. Just before the dying-consciousness the last javanacittas arise and these are conditioned by kamma. These can experience an object through one of the six doors. --------- M: But then there is some 'energy' left, to give rise to another citta? > This energy should be linked to craving (bhava, kama etc) and > delusion, something to do with karma. -------- N: It is kamma that produces the rebirth-consciousness. Now from your other post: M: is there anything we > can know about rebirth consciousness and that whole process, which > can be infered from what we are experiencing now - or is it > completely different? ------ N: It is different from now, while we experience objects through the six doorways. Rebirth-consciousness, the first moment of life, is vipaakacitta produced by kamma. It experiences an object, and that object is the same as experienced by the last javanacittas before dying, and these last javanacittas were also conditioned by kamma. If rebirth will be a happy one, the last javanacittas are kusala and experience a pleasant object, and if rebirth will be unhappy, the last javanacittas are akusala and experience an unpleasant object In the human plane the rebirth-consciousness is kusala vipaakacitta, and there are nine types: one rootless, and eight types that have two or three wholesome roots. People are born with different capabilities, some are born with paññaa, some without it. It is explained in the Gradual Sayings (Book of thre Sixes, ch IX, §§2-3) that if one is born without paññaa one cannot in that life attain jhana or enlightenment. Then one is an abhabba person. All bhavangacittas during life are the same type as the rebirth-consciousness and they experience the same object. We cannot find out what type of bhavangacitta we have. The bhavangacitta is process freed and doorfreed. It does not experience an object impinging on one of the six doors. I wait with your other questions. BTW your straightforward analysis of the discussions with Eric is useful to us. It is appreciated. I shall try to give it attention when I have time. It shows that misunderstandings of what Kh Sujin means can arise and on us the task to help solve such problems. This is also a question of language, and another way of reasoning than Westerners are used to, I mean, a logical way. I myself do not think the logical way is the only approach. Further, Kh Sujin, as I said to James, will not always answer directly, or sometimes she will not answer the question. Why? Because she likes to lead the questioner to more understanding of the paramattha dhamma that is right at hand. She goes back to basics. The paramattha dhammas. Nina. 54076 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 jwromeijn Dear Sarah, all I'm listening now to the "talk", even if I have only a telephone- modem connection. I say "talk" or 'teaching" because it's only partly a discussion: Sujin is not interested in what Erik wanted to tell about his Mahayana-knowledge; or refuses to discuss if he wants to compare his definitions with hers. And refuses to react to his question: "what is real?" One of the advantages of hearing it that I better understand some DSG- participants like Nina and you, especially the refusal to talk about Mahayana. And that's a function too. And I understand Sujin is a strong personality, leading the "discussion" in the direction she wants it to go. Of some remarks of Sujin I think: this topic doesn't interest me now, in this moment of my life; for example about the different types of dukkha. Then the connection ended; so: this are only first impressions. A question: do you also have recordings of discussions of Sujin with somebody who has other ideas, a real discussion of two equals? For example with an advanced Mahayanist or with a (formal) vipassana meditation teacher? Metta Joop BTW I received the book of Sijin from Sukin, thanks 54077 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:30am Subject: Language-Use Differences (Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas) upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Rob) - It seems to me that you are using language differently from Rob, TG, without realizing that, and this is creating a mistaken sense of disagreement on the sequential-vs-simultaneous issue. In a message dated 12/29/05 2:19:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Rob M. > > Thanks for the feedback. Just a few remarks below... > > In a message dated 12/28/2005 11:32:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rob.moult@... writes: > > Hi TG, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > >===== > > > >Sorry, TG, I am going to disagree with you. In the Abhidhamma, the > >technical term for "simultaneous" is "conascence condition" > (sahajata > >paccaya). The Patthana (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence > >condition) explains that the four immaterial aggregates > >(namakkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence > >condition. Vinnanakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three > >other namakkhandhas: vedanakkhanda (feeling), sannakkhanda > > (perception) and sankharakkhanda (the other cetasikas). > > > > TG: Not sure what you're disagreeing with since I made the point > that they > >do arise simultaneously...and in sequence. > > ===== > > I would have thought that simultaenous and sequential are "either / > or". Not clear how something can be both. > > TG: If the sequential is eliminated, experience is impossible. On a > phonograph, a needle pressing down on a revolving record is both > simultaneously > contacting the record and sequentially contacting the record. If the > needle is > not simultaneously contacting the record, it means it is not touching the > record and there is no sound experience. If it is not sequentially > touching the > record, it means the rotation has stopped and there is no sound experience. > > > > ===== > > > > To deny the sequential aspect is > >to deny "the past" IMO. This is not to say that the past enters > the present, > >but it is to say that the present has been structured by the past. > > > ===== > > The way that it is explained in the Abhidhamma is that a mental state > (citta) arises together with its group of cetasikas and then falls > away completely. The falling away of a mental state is a condition > for the arising of another mental state with its associated cetasikas. > > TG: This idea has always seemed to me a violation of the law of dependent > origination. I.E., it is a contradiction of that law to say -- "This not > being, that is." ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it does seem to me that cessations can and do serve as causative conditions. An annoying, seemingly incessant noise ceases, and pleasure and relief result, for example. ------------------------------------------ > > > > Certainly, mental states arise sequentially and condition each other > through natural decisive support, proximity, contiguity, etc. > conditions. It this way there is progression and the present is > conditioned by the past. > > TG: This seems to accord with what I'm saying. > > > > ===== > > > > > >I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing > >their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform > >their functions simultaneously, in parallel. > >TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no > sequential > > component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? > > ===== > > Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and cetasikas within > a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). > > TG: Let's translate the whole thing and see what's being said. Since > cetasikas are mental states...what you said is -- Mental states are > sequential > (not simultaneous) and mental states within a mental state are simultaneous > (not > sequential). I can't figure that out, other than that you are saying that > they ARE both simultaneous and sequential. But that statement, agreeing > with > my idea, is a contradiction of your stated idea, I believe. --------------------------------------------- Howard: When Rob speaks of a mental state, I believe he is referring to an interval (let's not worry whether it is instantaneous, as some believe, or has duration and alteration of sorts within it, as I believe) of consciousness involving object content and accompanied by a number of mental operations related to that content such as feeling, recognition, and so on. All that occurs together within a single mental state is the idea, and a change in object content or any of the concomitant operations leads into the next state. Within the state, the awareness, the object, and the concomitant operations are all present "simultaneously", but the states follow one upon the other sequentially. Later states and their various component aspects are conditioned by earlier, and, moreover, there are relations of various sorts holding among the components comprising a single state. Now, this scheme strikes me as simpler than the way things actually are in several ways. For one thing, it seems clear to me that when one state ends and a new one arises due to a change in the object content, some of the cetasikas may well continue, bridging that "gap", with dhamma-waves overlapping. The standard, quantum-oriented, Abhidhammic and commentarial take on this, however, would be to speak of replication of cetasikas from the old state to the new one, with completely sharp boundaries, and no overlapping - so that the pleasantness that carries over is interpreted as brand newand separate. But this is a side-issue that I am introducing here, relating it to "that other conversation"! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- > > I think you're saying that the "individual group" of mental states as a > "simultaneous package" does arise sequentially as a continuous flow of > "mental > state groups." So each group is caused by other groups and other aspects > of > other groups. For example: a smell in a previous group of "simultaneous > mental > states" might trigger a memory/thought in a subsequent group of > "simultaneous mental states." If that's is what you are saying, I agree. > But then I > think we have to concede that a prior "feeling" is a condition for a > "subsequent > thought." I would agree with all of that but I'm not sure if you would. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this is the crux of the matter. What you are calling the "individual group" of states is, I believe, what Rob is calling a "mental state". In Abhidhammic terminology, sometimes 'citta' refers to consciousness, and sometimes it refers to that aggregate/complex (and thus not a paramattha dhamma) that is an entire mindstate consisting of citta (in the prior sense), arammana, and cetasikas. -------------------------------------------- > > > > ===== > > > >There are many other conditional relations between various > cetasikas > >(for example, contact is related to the other cetasikas thought > >nutriment condition), but none of these conditions imply > >sequentiality (i.e. cetasikas within a mental state are not > related > >through contiguity or proximity condition). > > > >TG: That's not my experience! Clearly, as far as I'm concerned, > one > > thought leads to another: each feeling leads to new perceptions. > > ===== > > One thought does lead to another, but each thought is a different > mental state (or set of mental states, depending on how one defines > things). Within each mental state there are a discrete set of > cetasikas which are only associated with that one mental state. > > TG: I strongly disagree that they are ONLY associated with that one mental > > state. Their entire "being" is dependent on prior mental states. ----------------------------------------- Howard: When Rob says "associated with" here I believe he merely means "occurring solely within". ------------------------------------------ > > > > ===== > > > >Abhidhamma seems to tend to interpretations that digitize things > into "point > >moments" of "substantial-ness" far too much for my taste or for > what matches > >the Buddha's presentation IMO. The present is a phantom of the > past. What > >is experienced are phantoms. > > ===== > > I agree that some people do not like the analytical approach taken by > the Abhidhamma... but I am not one of those people :-) > > TG: I like Abhidhamma's analytical approach. I just disagree with some of > > the ways it's interpreted. > > > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > TG > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54078 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: The proximate cause of Sati (=Awareness) ? matheesha333 Hi Nina, Dhammassavanasuttaü/AN- The results of listening to the Teaching. 021.02. Bhikkhus, these five are the results of listening to the Teaching. What five? Hears what has not been heard, the heard is refreshed, doubts are dispelled, the view is rectified and the mind becomes pleased. Bhikkhus, these five are the results of listening to the Teaching. M: I'm not sure if there is any other sutta which mentions more, but listening does not seem to have a direct link to sati. But to not be limited by texts, in the real world i can see how it can be linked. metta Matheesha 54079 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas upasaka_howard Hi, Chinkah (and Rob, and TG) - In a message dated 12/29/05 2:40:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, limchinkah@... writes: > I wonder if this simile makes sense: > > A team of project members (comprising the Chairperson and the committee > members) gather together at the SAME TIME. The Chairperson starts the meeting. > At the appropriate time, the various members of the committee presents their > status reports. The Project Engineer presents the status of the project; > the Project Treasurer presents the financial status of the project; etc, etc. > The Project Secretary keeps track of the proceedings. At the end of the > meeting, the Chairperson and the committee members leave together at the SAME TIME. > > In this simile, the Chairperson is the Citta and the committee members are > the Cetasikas. Coming together at the SAME TIME signifies the arising of > Citta and Cetasikas simultaneously at the SAME TIME. Taking turns to present > their reports signify that the cetasikas take turns to "play their respective > roles/functions" otherwise they "stay in the background" observing the > situation. The Project Secretary plays the role of the "vitality' or Jivitindriya > (one of the seven Universal cetasikas) to keep the meeting going. Leaving > together at the SAME TIME signifies the passing of Citta and Cetasikas > simultaneously at the SAME TIME. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Wow! What a wonderful modern parable! Very well done!! Of course, one discrepancy is that at actual meetings of this sort, some attendees do leave early, and others make stick around for the meeting to follow! (Hmm! Maybe this model is even better than I thought!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- > > This simile implies that the Citta and ALL Cetasikas arise together at the > same time. However, the cetasikas "take turns" to play their roles. Some > cetasikas play their roles throughout the entire lifespan of the Citta. Some > cetasikas play their roles only at the beginning of the lifespan; some in the > middle and some play their roles towards the end of the lifespan. When they > do not play any role, they "stay in the backgound". --------------------------------------------- Howard: This last paragraph is interesting. Does it have a basis in Abhidhamma? ---------------------------------------------- > > > metta, > chinkah ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54080 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: Cetasikas matheesha333 Hi TG and RobM, The way i see it: To experience something there has to be (of the 5 aggregates) Vinnana and Rupa(for phassa). Then phassa according to DO gives rise to Vedana. I think sanna arises afterward - based on my experiencing. If the vedana is neutral it feels like sanna is first (but isnt). vipassana tells me that the above order is correct as well. Looks like more simple mental operations first, moving on to the complex ones later. The link to the next thought seems to be through sankhara. [from a description of the 5 aggregates] "And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate into a fabricated thing? From form-ness, they fabricate form into a fabricated thing. From feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling into a fabricated thing. From perception-hood...From fabrication- hood...From consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness into a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.htm l To experience all of these conciousness has to be present.(sariputta saying it is not possible to seperate them/MN) TG, lovely similie. I agree. These 5 have to arise together, but not necessarily at the same time, but very close to each other nevertheless. metta Matheesha 54081 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:55am Subject: Typo Correction (Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas) upasaka_howard In a message dated 12/29/05 8:49:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Howard: > Wow! What a wonderful modern parable! Very well done!! Of course, one > discrepancy is that at actual meetings of this sort, some attendees do leave > > early, and others make stick around for the meeting to follow! (Hmm! Maybe > this > model is even better than I thought!! ;-)) > -------------------------------------------- Please replace "others make stick around for the meeting to follow" by "others may stick around for the meeting to follow". Sorry! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54082 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: The proximate cause of Sati (=Awareness) ? buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha (Ven. Samahita, Nina, James) - Your quoted sutta and comment is interesting. Related to sati is sampajanna as pointed out by Bhikkhu Samahita - they come together. Both supports wise listening that brings about the other dhammas in the five faculties, such as the faculties of mindfulness and concentration and discernment(samma-ditthi). > > 'Hears what has not been heard, the heard is refreshed, doubts are > dispelled, the view is rectified and the mind becomes pleased. > Bhikkhus, these five are the results of listening to the Teaching'. > > M: I'm not sure if there is any other sutta which mentions more, but > listening does not seem to have a direct link to sati. But to not be > limited by texts, in the real world i can see how it can be linked. > Wise listening also dispels hindrances. I will find you a few suttas to support my "claims" later. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Dhammassavanasuttaü/AN- The results of listening to the Teaching. > > 021.02. Bhikkhus, these five are the results of listening to the > Teaching. What five? (snipped) > metta > > Matheesha > 54083 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, I've been thinking back to the meditation retreats I've been on and wondering what effect they had, if any. As techniques for dealing with stuff, I think they have indeed been beneficial. Your experience with the paying attention to sensations on the hands and feet as a method for calming the mind sounds familiar and comfortable and, I believe, would be effective for most people. But I don't think it has much to do with the Buddha's teaching, per se, any more than taking a deep breath and counting to ten, practicing tai ch'i, or going shopping. The most useful dealing-with-stuff technique I learned at meditation retreats is the special Goenka method for going to sleep. At one retreat I had a difficult time staying awake the first four days or so. I started paying attention to the process of falling asleep and the progression of (generalized) states leading from "awake" to "asleep." Now I can guide myself through those (generalized) states rapidly and reliably and be fast asleep in few short minutes, even if I've just had a strong cup of coffee and stimulating discussion. If I were to instruct someone in how to do this, the words would sound very much like Goenka describing his "vipassana" technique (but, unlike him and K. Sujin, my voice decidedly does not have a soothing quality). [Yes, James, I know, "Bad student! Not doing what the teacher says. Not properly applying the technique." But I believe any fair evaluation of any student's efforts at a meditation retreat would be "improper application of the technique >99% of the time".] But what about your "no-self" experience? You've convinced me to consider the possibility that the development of insight needn't follow the Abhidhamma/commentary descriptions (although I am not yet ready to go so far as to say that the Abhidhamma is at variance with the suttas and vinaya). Did that "no-self" experience play a role in the formation of your "ebb and flow...wave after wave" view of citta with no discernable starting point or ending point? Was that view developed from reading and discussing? From elsewhere? Etc. With metta, Dan > ========================== > As far as the teaching (on videotape) by Goenka, there was not much > memorable except the soothing quality of his voice (which, BTW, find Khun Sujin > has as well), and the pleasantness of his chanting. What is most memorable > from the retreat for me was the meditation itself and the "no-self" experience I > had one evening. One other thing I remember was what one of the assistant > teachers pointed out to me to the effect that paying attention to sensations at > the center-points of hands and feet is method of calming oneself. (It worked for > me.) 54084 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:05am Subject: Yoniso Manasikaaro --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma onco111 Dear Suan, > How are you? I'm doing quite well. How about yourself? I have a question... > Dan wrote: > > "or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are describing > reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not be > very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in > latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how > things that I have not experienced must be wrong." > > The Buddha has a technical term for your reflection. It is > called "yoniso manasikaaro", sensible mental positioning. > > And, the Buddha also teaches that yoniso manasikaaro is a pre- > requisite for the Right View, sammaadi.t.thi. I was thinking that that reflection was a type of "pariyatti", while the reflection "[the commentaries and Abhidhamma] must be wrong because they are at odds with what I think is right" is conceit. I've thought about yoniso manasikaaro as a cetasika that determines the character of the immediately subsequent javana cittas as kusala. I do also recall the Buddha's teaching that the two conditions for samaadi.t.thi are listening and yoniso manasikaaro. Is pariyatti necessarily kusala? Dan 54085 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: What are the five faculties in the ariyans? sa ññaa proximate cause of sati. matheesha333 Hi Nina, > <...Bhikkhu, when one knows and sees any eye, form, eye- consciousness, > eye-contact, & feeling arised caused by eye-contact as impermanent, > when one knows and sees this, that wrong view, that belief in an ego, > that making up of a self, is overcome, eliminated and all abandoned... > Bhikkhu, when one knows & sees any ear, sound, ear-consciousness, > ear-contact, & any feeling arised caused by ear-contact as transient, > when one knows and sees this, that wrong view, that belief in an ego, > that making up of a self, is overcome, eliminated and all abandoned...> N: > It reminds us of the dhammas appearing through the six doors. We should not > just read this text, it is about dhammas appearing at this moment. The > Buddha taught all the time of dhammas appearing at this moment. When we > consider this text and investigate it, we remember to apply it just now, it > pushes towards this moment. I was watching the early morning news on T.V., > and remembered that it is true: there is seeing, there is visible object. We > cannot understand yet the true characteristic of impermanence, but > considering the dhamma that appears now is a beginning, and it is the right > beginning. No doubt! M: So you could understand that there was the eye, seeing and visible object. According to the sutta you also need to see eye consciousness, and contact. So c'mon Nina! You need to find a way to see that as well. Find a way that works for you! You will understand anatta by direct experience if you do it! > ---- > N: Yes, we also need viriya, viriyaarambha, ardent energy. Nobody can make > it arise. It is a cetasika that accompanies sobhana citta, and also all the > other sobhana cetasikas that accompany citta that develops right > understanding. We need viriya to continue the development of right > understanding with courage, not giving up. > It gives pushing power to the citta. We need confidence, saddhaa, to listen > to the Buddha, to develop the Path. Also enthusiasm, piiti, is helpful, but > it only arises with the kusala cittas that are accompanied by happy feeling, > and nobody can make it arise at will. M: If you sat down and watched a sad movie will it make you sad? I agree that you cant suddenly start crying out of nowhere. But you can sit down to watch that sad movie, knowing fully well that that action will make you sad in the end. By exposing your citta and cetasika to the images in the movie and by the action of the 5 aggregates including dukkha vedana you will give rise to dukkha. Do you feel that is a reasonable explanation? metta Matheesha 54086 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:41am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Hi Matheesha, In some respects I had a similar impression of the recording with Erik and friends. I agree that she made it seem like there is an substantial and essential distinction between the absolute and the conceptual, and isn't it a debilitating error to confuse the two? Confusing the two is extremely easy to do, and the natural tendency for putthujana to think "I know" when there is no understanding at all. Her way of teaching is to always bring the discussion back to the distinction between illusion (or concept) and reality. > This is also one of the really frustrating things for > me in this group! it's SO close and only if you would try a little > bit ... arrrrggghhhh! So, is there a method for getting from concept to paramattha? If so, please explain! > Another thing i noticed was the word panna being used almost as if it > were a paramatta dhamma, as in 'panna knows'. In the Abhidhamma, panya is a cetasika, a paramattha dhamma. > This is a mix of > conventional and ultimate, arguably better than 'I know'. After all > panna is also another label. It is only sanna that gives meaning. I agree that the language of "panna knows", "seeing sees" etc. is difficult to stomach. It seems on the one hand redundant (panna IS knowing, seeing IS seeing--why say it twice) and on the other hand can easily be misread as "there is a tiny seeing entity that does the seeing"--a reification that follows naturally from the language. But doesn't the mind that is intent on reification (i.e., taking the conceptual for the real) continue its reifying ways regardless of what language is used? A step away from "I know" or "I see" is then at least a step in the right direction. And would a mind that is not intent on reification reify any more with "panna knows" than it would with "understanding arises"? > I have not heard all of KS teachings, but my overall impression from > the two sessions with Erick is that her teachings are like a small > triangle which thinks it is all there is (certainly that is what she > believes with good intentions), but is actually part of a much bigger > triangle, perhaps making up one corner of it. I think the small triangle that we see is the entry way into the teachings. Without a discernment of the distinction between concept and reality there is no discernment of the path. Another way of teaching would be to talk about all the stories and concepts without emphasizing panya or discernment or understanding. But, really, would of the Buddha's teaching would then be learned? > perhaps what she thought was useless) questions. I dont think anyone > who sees paramatta will have that particular problem and can switch > fluidly between the two without getting it mixed up or disregarding > the conventional to this degree. I think those who see paramattha totally disregard the conventional when it comes to developing insight. The difference between paramattha and sammuti is profound, the former has everything to do with bhavana and the latter has nothing to do with bhavana. > Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her seeming > difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. I thought she sounded like she was trying to get Erik not to speculate about nibbana because although speculation, theorizing, conceptualizing are fun intellectual exercises that build up a strong sense of "I know", ultimately they are not helpful in developing insight. > I hope my comments werent too difficult. I hope people appraciate that > i am speaking my mind freely and not trying to couch my language to a > degree that the message becomes blurred. I (for one) appreciate the free speaking. Thanks! Metta, Dan 54087 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 bitakarma Congratulations on hitting the 5 year mark! Happy New Year to everyone and a big thanks for sharing insights and discussions on the Dhamma. We are fortunate to live in a time when we can learn the Dhamma from so many over such large distances :) Ray > [Original Message] > From: sarah abbott > To: > Date: 12/28/2005 3:10:41 AM > Subject: [dsg] 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 > > Dear Friends, > > Today is the 5th anniversary of DSG and to mark the occasion we have just > uploaded the first part of the next series of discussions*. (The rest > should be ready before we go away in February along with the recent India > series). > 54088 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/29/05 10:47:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I've been thinking back to the meditation retreats I've been on and > wondering what effect they had, if any. As techniques for dealing > with stuff, I think they have indeed been beneficial. Your experience > with the paying attention to sensations on the hands and feet as a > method for calming the mind sounds familiar and comfortable and, I > believe, would be effective for most people. But I don't think it has > much to do with the Buddha's teaching, per se, any more than taking a > deep breath and counting to ten, practicing tai ch'i, or going > shopping. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it's just a concentrative calming activity. It was useful for me at one point at the retreat. ----------------------------------------- > > The most useful dealing-with-stuff technique I learned at meditation > retreats is the special Goenka method for going to sleep. At one > retreat I had a difficult time staying awake the first four days or > so. I started paying attention to the process of falling asleep and > the progression of (generalized) states leading from "awake" > to "asleep." Now I can guide myself through those (generalized) > states rapidly and reliably and be fast asleep in few short minutes, > even if I've just had a strong cup of coffee and stimulating > discussion. > --------------------------------- Howard: That's interesting. I think you might try extending that work *into* the sleep state, so that mindfulness could be applied during sleep in lucid dreaming. I've often thought that inasmuch as 1/3 of our time is spent asleep, that practice could be very profitable. ----------------------------------- If I were to instruct someone in how to do this, the > > words would sound very much like Goenka describing his "vipassana" > technique (but, unlike him and K. Sujin, my voice decidedly does not > have a soothing quality). [Yes, James, I know, "Bad student! Not > doing what the teacher says. Not properly applying the technique." > But I believe any fair evaluation of any student's efforts at a > meditation retreat would be "improper application of the technique > >99% of the time".] > > But what about your "no-self" experience? You've convinced me to > consider the possibility that the development of insight needn't > follow the Abhidhamma/commentary descriptions (although I am not yet > ready to go so far as to say that the Abhidhamma is at variance with > the suttas and vinaya). Did that "no-self" experience play a role in > the formation of your "ebb and flow...wave after wave" view of citta > with no discernable starting point or ending point? Was that view > developed from reading and discussing? From elsewhere? Etc. ------------------------------------------ Howard: No, it played no role in that. The no-self experience had the main consequences of 1) persuading me that sense of self and the subject-object mode of experience are unnecessary for experience to occur, 2) giving me enormous confidence in the Buddha and his teaching, and 3) preparing the way for me to let go of "hoping" under what would usually be very trying circumstances, and thereby handling those circumstances with ease. (That last business pertained to when it was thought, a couple years after the retreat, that I might well die, due to a misdiagnosed condition. I believe that the no-self experience had changed me sufficiently to enable me to relinquish hoping for matters to be other than they seemed. I knew that hoping was just a form of craving, and that it would produce suffering, and I was able to be at peace, not striving for a continuation of this life. Of course, whether I would react similarly now I cannot say. I am willing, however, to forego testing that out! ;-)) As to this more recent matter, it's not so much that I like this "wave theory," but just that sharp endings and beginnings are not part of my experience - I just don't find them, and I don't see their necessity either. to the "wave theory," it is just a tentative model, and dispensable. Further with regard to the "packet theory", I see problems with it soteriologically, as regards reification. In any case, it is sufficient for me to see that at any point in time, there is present an object of awareness and the knowing of it, along with a variety of other operations in effect, that at prior times things were different, and in the future will be different yet again, and that those presently occurring operations etc are interrelated in various ways, they came about utterly dependent on a variety of prior conditions, equally without own-being, that they are all impersonal and, once the conditions for their occurrence were all in place, their arising was a fait accompli and beyond control. -------------------------------------------------- > > With metta, > > Dan > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54089 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 matheesha333 Hi Dan, D: I agree that she made it seem like there is an > substantial and essential distinction between the absolute and the > conceptual, and isn't it a debilitating error to confuse the two? M: Indeed. Even more debilitating is to delete from the conceptual framework things like meditation, monkhood because of knowing something halfway. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, espceially dhamma knowledge. D: > Confusing the two is extremely easy to do, and the natural tendency > for putthujana to think "I know" when there is no understanding at > all. Her way of teaching is to always bring the discussion back to > the distinction between illusion (or concept) and reality. M: Fair enough M: > > This is also one of the really frustrating things for > > me in this group! it's SO close and only if you would try a little > > bit ... arrrrggghhhh! > > So, is there a method for getting from concept to paramattha? If so, > please explain! > M: I have a better idea. Have a good try at this. Can you, using all the knowledge that you have in the suttas and commentaries come up with a good way to go about this?! M:> > Another thing i noticed was the word panna being used almost as if > it > > were a paramatta dhamma, as in 'panna knows'. D: > In the Abhidhamma, panya is a cetasika, a paramattha dhamma. M: Saying that understanding arises via a cetasaika, and saying 'panna knows' are two differnt things. Panna is just a label. A container. A holdall to capture understanding that suddenly arises to everything you have ever understood about the dhamma from the day you started coming into contact with it. It is in itself concept. You could also say the self is the five aggregates, -nama and rupa. D: > I agree that the language of "panna knows", "seeing sees" etc. is > difficult to stomach. It seems on the one hand redundant (snip) And would a mind that is not > intent on reification reify any more with "panna knows" than it would > with "understanding arises"? M: Well like you said, this is also a good step in the right direction. 'I know' --> 'panna knows' --> 'there is knowing'. M:her teachings are like a small > > triangle which thinks it is all there is (certainly that is what > she > > believes with good intentions), but is actually part of a much > bigger > > triangle, perhaps making up one corner of it. > D: > I think the small triangle that we see is the entry way into the > teachings. Without a discernment of the distinction between concept > and reality there is no discernment of the path. Another way of > teaching would be to talk about all the stories and concepts without > emphasizing panya or discernment or understanding. But, really, would > of the Buddha's teaching would then be learned? M: I dont know what methods you have encountered apart fron goenka, so i would say not to be too hasty to judge everyone on the planet. The buddha never made the differenece clear of these two, never used the word pannati, except to imply it, so perhaps there is more to all the other methods than meets the eye/understanding? D:> I think those who see paramattha totally disregard the conventional > when it comes to developing insight. M: Without direct understanding insight is partial. Thats why these funny errors creep in. M:> > Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her seeming > > difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. > D: > I thought she sounded like she was trying to get Erik not to > speculate about nibbana because although speculation, theorizing, > conceptualizing are fun intellectual exercises that build up a strong > sense of "I know", ultimately they are not helpful in developing > insight. M: I agree, Time to put down the books,stop talking and start experiencing. metta Matheesha 54090 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi James, op 29-12-2005 11:24 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: N: Whatever kind of >> bhavana someone is inclined to: they are all cetasikas conditioned > by former >> accumulations. >> ------ > > This statement is a little confusing because you are mixing ultimate > and conventional reality. -------- N: Explaining ultimates by way of conventional terms. Accumulation is a process pertaining to citta and cetasikas. One citta falls away and is succeeded by the next one, and thus all accumulated experiences, inclinations, also kamma are carried on from moment to moment. -------- J: I can't tell if you are saying that bhavanas are > cetasikas or people are cetasikas. Either way, it is still > confusing. ----- N: Bhaavana: mental development, development of cetasikas such as samaadhi and paññaa. Person in the ultimate sense : citta, cetasika and ruupa. -------- J: Regardless, I think I still get the gist of what you are saying, but > I have a question: by "former accumulations" do you mean in former > lifetimes? Couldn't the accumulations which condition bhavana > develop in this lifetime? ----- N: Both, in former lives and in the present life. ------- N:Didn't the Buddha teach a path of mental > cultivation to condition bhavana development in this lifetime? ----- Yes. He taught it to those who were teachable. That means, to those who had accumulated understanding already, had listened in former lives. See the Theratherigathaa for examples. Nina. 54091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas nilovg Hi TG, you are right, but I know that there are misunderstandings about being simultaneous of contact and feeling, or feeling and saññaa. Some think: first contact then feeling. Watch the Vis. 213, coming soon. The order of teaching is to be applied to the five khandhas. op 28-12-2005 22:28 schreef TGrand458@... op TGrand458@...: > > Agreed but the way I view it is more of a cascading process where one thing > leads to another and that to a next. So some feelings may be responsible for > thoughts that come afterward. Even though those latter thoughts are now > accompanied and structured with current feelings and perceptions. In this > case, > the current thoughts are supported by both "past conditions impressions" > that have formed the current conditions to be what they are now. > > With this viewpoint, the simple answer of "simultaneous" is insufficient. > 54092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 nilovg Hi Joop, a mistake here. I rather say: I do not like to label this or that like Mahayana. No refusal, or bad feeling. Nina. op 29-12-2005 11:44 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > One of the advantages of hearing it that I better understand some DSG- > participants like Nina and you, especially the refusal to talk about > Mahayana. 54093 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:03pm Subject: Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings buddhatrue Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: [Yes, James, I know, "Bad student! Not > doing what the teacher says. Not properly applying the technique." > But I believe any fair evaluation of any student's efforts at a > meditation retreat would be "improper application of the technique > >99% of the time".] ;-)) I don't have any issues with you using the Goenka method to fall asleep faster. That sounds like a very handy talent to have, and one which I share with you. I am also able to fall asleep quite quickly due to my meditation practice. As far as your other observation about: "But I believe any fair evaluation of any student's efforts at a meditation retreat would be "improper application of the technique >99% of the time" I'm not sure if I agree with your statistic but you do bring up an important point. At most modern meditation retreats people don't completely follow the technique taught to them. Why? I believe it is because of the separation from the meditation teacher. Goenka has his retreats lead by videotaped lectures!! Personally, I don't believe that one is going to get much teaching from a videotape. One needs to be in the physical presence of the teacher, the master, to really gain good and lasting benefit (and, btw, I don't agree with Goenka's technique). I have been fortunate to work one-on-one with a respected meditation teacher from Thailand, Ajahn Somporn. I believe that one needs to work directly with a wise and established teacher to understand the benefit of practice and to keep practicing. If not, personal confusion and delusion will lead the practitioner to experiment in all sorts of varied and unhelpful ways. Lots of valuable time will be lost. Metta, James 54094 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:26pm Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Yes. He taught it to those who were teachable. James: I find this to be an unhelpful and unnecessary qualification. (Could you imagine me saying as a teacher, "Well, I teach only those who are teachable.") The Buddha didn't turn away anyone- even mass murderers. That means, to those who had > accumulated understanding already, had listened in former lives. James: Listened to who? This is also an unhelpful and unnecessary qualification. As I said, the Buddha didn't turn away anyone who wished to learn the dhamma. See the > Theratherigathaa for examples. James: Examples? If this was a necessity there wouldn't be just a few examples, there would be bold statements and actions by the Buddha. Nina, your thinking in this regard is obviously deluded. > Nina. > Metta, James 54095 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:34pm Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - The meaning of "accumulation" as you defined in the earlier post to James is very clear to me. > James: Didn't the Buddha teach a path of mental > > cultivation to condition bhavana development in this lifetime? > ----- > Nina: Yes. He taught it to those who were teachable. That means, to those who had accumulated understanding already, had listened in former lives. See the Theratherigathaa for examples. > Tep: So each person's path toward Nibbana is analogous to the climbing upstairs; every step higher up (toward the final achievement) corresponds to a stage of developed panna. I think you call that stage "accumulation" of understanding. The "teachability" is a mental quality that correlates to the accumulation, which depends on many other factors. Does the above description make sense to you? Regards, Tep ======= 54096 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:42am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience dacostacharles Hi, How do you know the author was not a Buddhist trying to justify his or her beliefs via ... Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop Sent: Sunday, 25 December, 2005 16:22 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience Hallo all Not that it surprised me but more and more neuroscience comes to the same conclusion as the Dhamma: the 'self' is an illusion Here some Amazon-information about the (what I heard) best neurophilosophical book about it Metta Joop Being No One : The Self-Model Theory of Subjectivity by Thomas Metzinger Paperback: 711 pages Publisher: The MIT Press (September 1, 2004) ISBN: 0262633086 Book Description According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: <...> 54097 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. dacostacharles Hi Matheesha, Most Buddhist, including the Buddha, believes in morality and karma. A common belief along these lines is "thou shall not kill," to do so would create an effect that could block you from nibbana, even at death. Part of this historic belief is that suicide is killing. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Subject: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. <...> M: Suffering arises because of defilements. To think only of nibbaana is to not enjoy the journey - the relief that lesser and lesser defilements bring in this very life. Yes, we must hasten it! But then the question of suicide props up doesnt it? Why not go right to the end. Most people cant commit suicide even if they wanted to. A more pleasant way of going perhaps- Drug overdose? Then what if rebirth does exist? You would have a big problem on your hands. You'd have wasted a human life. (its the old theory - better to believe in god, because if he doesnt exist its ok - but youre in for big trouble if he does!) Matheesha 54098 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Path Of Discrimination, Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Charles, Ch:> Most Buddhist, including the Buddha, believes in morality and karma. A > common belief along these lines is "thou shall not kill," to do so would > create an effect that could block you from nibbana, even at death. Part of > this historic belief is that suicide is killing. M: I think you mean 'aanantariiya paapa kamma' (not sure what the enlish translation is) which blocks the way to nibbana in this lifetime. They include killing mother, killing father, hurting a buddha physically, causing schism amongst the sangha. It is said that a sotapanna are incapable of doing these. metta Matheesha > But then the question of suicide props up doesnt it? Why not go > right to the end. Most people cant commit suicide even if they > wanted to. A more pleasant way of going perhaps- Drug overdose? > > Then what if rebirth does exist? You would have a big problem on > your hands. You'd have wasted a human life. (its the old theory - > better to believe in god, because if he doesnt exist its ok - but > youre in for big trouble if he does!) > 54099 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:54pm Subject: Listening Well buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and all) - Earlier we had a conversation about listening to the Dhamma. Nina also wrote an online article about "listening". > > M: I'm not sure if there is any other sutta which mentions more, but > > listening does not seem to have a direct link to sati. But to not be > > limited by texts, in the real world i can see how it can be linked. > > > Tep: > Wise listening also dispels hindrances. I will find you a few suttas > to support my "claims" later. > Tep: Below is part of an article that lists a collection of the suttas about "right" listening to the Dhamma and its benefits. This excerpt is from a Dhammavuddho Bhikkhu's article in 1997. "In Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.202, the 5 advantages of hearing the Dhamma are enumerated. One of them is the attainment of Right View. Since attaining Right View is synonymous with attaining Ariyahood, it is clear that hearing Dhamma can make one an Ariyan disciple. "Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43 states that 2 conditions are needed for the arising of Right View: Listening to the Dhamma, and Paying proper attention or thorough consideration (yoniso manasikara) "This is the second confirmation that the Sotapanna stage is attained by listening to the dhamma. "In Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8, the Buddha gave another confirmation. He said that when one listens to the Dhamma attentively, the 5 hindrances (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to become an Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper attention (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas. "Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 10.75 tells about the person who is saved by Dhamma: "...for he has listened (savanena), he has done much learning (bahusacca), he has penetrated view, he wins partial release.... the ear for Dhamma (dhammasota) saves this person." "The word Sotapanna, for instance, consists of sota meaning "stream" or "ear" and apanna meaning "entered upon". Normally, Sotapanna is translated as "stream-entry" but it can also mean "ear-entry" - in the sense of the ear being penetrated by the Dhamma. A close study of the Suttas suggests that the latter translation is possibly more correct because the Buddha's disciples were called savakas or listeners (of the Dhamma), and He generally referred to them as "Ariyan disciples" in the Suttas (e.g. Anguttara Nikaya Suttas 4.58 & 5.41). [end of extract] Tep: More about listening can be found in the original article. Liberation - Relevance of Sutta-Vinaya by Dhammavuddho Thera (This essay was based on the Dhamma talk "Importance of the Buddha's Discourses" delivered on 9th December 1997 by Venerable Dhammavuddho Thera. This article first appeared in THERAVADA (March 1999). The Journal of Theravada Society of Australia.) http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha163.htm Regards, Tep ========= 54100 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hi Jon > >The difference between us is clear, I will not repeat my arguments. >One final remark. > >Jon: "Many forms of kusala involve an act of body or speech. Without >understanding the crucial importance of the mental state, there will >be less kusala in one's acts of speech and body." > >Joop: I agree but's not the complete picture, the 'proof of the >pudding is in the eating'. If there is a real kusala mental state, in >my continuing exemple "right livelihood", then that state conditions >ethical behavior. >It's getting again and again a kusala mental (ethical) state plus the >right (ethical) action that is to me the aspect "right livelihood" of >the NEP > > Yes, I agree with your characterisation of 'right (kusala) mental state accompanying appropriate bodily action'. As I see it, the appropriate bodily action in the case of right livelihood is forbearing from doing some act of wrong speech or action in the course of one's livelihood that one is otherwise inclined to do. Would you agree that refraining from doing an unwholesome act that one is about to do can be an instance of kusala? Jon 54101 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas TGrand458@... Hi Rob M., All, A few remarks below... In a message dated 12/29/2005 1:44:33 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: > The way that it is explained in the Abhidhamma is that a mental state > (citta) arises together with its group of cetasikas and then falls > away completely. The falling away of a mental state is a condition > for the arising of another mental state with its associated cetasikas. > > TG: This idea has always seemed to me a violation of the law of dependent > origination. I.E., it is a contradiction of that law to say -- "This not > being, that is." > ===== Sorry, I am confused. I understand dependent origination as a description of how ignorance and craving bind us to samsara. I don't see dependent origination as having context when discussing the components of a mental state or the stream of mental states within a thought process. TG: My understanding is that Dependent Origination/Arising is a 'principle' that applies to entire realm or field of conditions; i.e., anything conditioned. The principle was stated by the Buddha as follows: This being, that is With the arising of this, that arises This not being, that is not With the ceasing of this, that ceases The 12 fold chain is merely the -- Dependent Arising principles being applied to the issue of suffering. The principle of Dependent Arising (This being, that is, etc.) can be applied to anything that arises. The Buddha does so numerously throughout the Suttas. These principles, IMO, must apply to all conditioned states and therefore mental states. BTW, these principles are often seen preceding the Buddha's description of the 12 Fold Chain in the Suttas. ===== > > > Certainly, mental states arise sequentially and condition each other > through natural decisive support, proximity, contiguity, etc. > conditions. It this way there is progression and the present is > conditioned by the past. > > TG: This seems to accord with what I'm saying. > ===== I am glad that we can find something that we agree upon :-) Seriously, I suspect that our problem is one of semantics and definition, not really any fundamental disagreement. TG: Yes ===== > > > ===== > > > > > > I appreciate that it helps to visualize the cetasikas performing > > their functions in sequence, but in reality, the cetasikas perform > > their functions simultaneously, in parallel. > > TG: Same point as above applies. Besides, if cetasikas had no > sequential > > component, how could one gradually progress toward enlightenment? > > ===== > > Mental states are sequential (not simultaneous) and cetasikas within > a mental state are simultaneous (not sequential). > > TG: Let's translate the whole thing and see what's being said. Since > cetasikas are mental states... ===== Sorry to cut you off in mid-sentence, but I suspect that my non- clarity in my definitions created this confusion. Sorry about that. ===== > > TG: I strongly disagree that they are ONLY associated with that one mental > state. Their entire "being" is dependent on prior mental states. > ===== There are may conditional relations at work. Through contiguity condition, the falling away of one "consciousness + set of cetasikas" is a condition for the arising of new "consciousness + set of cetasikas". My point is that consciousness and the set of associated cetasikas arise as a complete unit; indivisible, not in stages. Frankly, I am not speaking from personal experience, merely parroting what is in the texts. If you agree that this is what the texts say, but you do not accept this, then I am okay with that. TG: My understanding of the Abhidhamma texts is in accord with yours. The universal concomitants are said to all arise with each conscious moment. I suspect there may be a cascading hierarchy within that so called simultaneous set. I cringe when I hear a rote cut and dry answer that they are exactly one way or another. I suspect these things are always moving and altering and even the so called "set" is in a flux. I think the compilers of the Abhidhamma texts have produced a work of genius second only to the Suttas. I see it as a guide to help the mind to understand reality. But I don't think that it can be merely quoted from to explain what reality is. Nor do I think that you think such a thing either. (I'm definitely OK with that!) ;-) Metta, Rob M :-) TG 54102 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 sarahprocter... Hi Ray & all, --- Raymond Hendrickson wrote: > Congratulations on hitting the 5 year mark! Happy New Year to > everyone > and a big thanks for sharing insights and discussions on the Dhamma. We > are fortunate to live in a time when we can learn the Dhamma from so > many > over such large distances :) Ray .... S: Thanks to everyone who has replied so kindly to this thread and to all of you who have given your sincere comments on the Erik audio discussion. Much appreciated. (Math, your comments are not in the slightest bit offensive - just honest and well-considered). I'm so behind in replying to so many posts but I just wanted to say how very glad I am to hear from you, Ray, after a long break. Very glad to know you're still lurking around:-)., I always remember your posts as being very 'insightful' and kind. It would be nice to hear from you a little in the new year, but I know you're always busy with your other Dhamma projects, such as your Majjhima chat group. Do share any of your discussion topics anytime if you feel inclined to do so. 5th year, 6th year, 16th (in Larry's case:-)).....more concepts of course and really only this moment, these present dhammas arising and falling.... For those in the 'discrete quanta' corner, I think there are some good sutta (as well as Abhidhamma and commentary) quotes that may be of relevance under 'Moment & Momentary' in U.P. Metta, Sarah ========== 54103 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:43pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 347- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[q] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)] It is useful to study the different types of akusala citta and their accompanying cetasikas(1). The study will help us to see that akusala dhammas arise because of their appropriate conditions, that citta and cetasikas which arise together condition one another. We are reminded by the study of realities that akusala dhamma is not a person, that it does not belong to a self. However, we should not be contented with merely theoretical knowledge of the truth. We should continue to develop right understanding of realities which appear through the six doors. Akusala dhammas cannot be eradicated immediately. We should first learn to see them as they are: as conditioned nåmas, not self. Through right understanding of realities doubt, wrong view and all the other akusala dhammas can be eradicated. *** 1) For a summary of them see Appendix 7. ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[[to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 54105 From: connie Date: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:02pm Subject: Re: ethical considerations nichiconn Dear Joop, I read. But as you say, better we don't think of Connie at all. Just the five aggregates or some construction. Or find that pessimistic self(destruction) ;) in the suttas: an example - "The untaught ordinary man understands no escape from painful feeling other than sensual desires" (S.iv,208) I thought "Tep's answer is good" for, I think, the message you referred me to. Dhamma and adhamma (false doctrine; misconduct). I am sorry I am too lazy to look. But here: "As a rule, vowels are short before consonant clusters." And I don't know, maybe one sotaapanna is spelled that way and the plural ends in long/double "a". But no, this letter's not always negation. and sometimes (ha!) it is hard to tell where long and short vowels change into each other or another vowel. i guess i will have to look at the rule book again some day, but I'm like you here, too... "disagreeable is learning", so to speak, not quoting you. Make that 'forced' or 'formal' learning. ;) "Like you" - that is a measurement, a comparison, an ego "fix"; 'unlike you' - ditto. Ego / Maa.na / Conceit or pride. "Disagreeable" - dukkha of dukkha? But 'disagreeable' - difficult, I was thinking. <<5. Energy has the characteristic of striving; its function is to fortify; its manifestation is infatigability; an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause.>> - "Perfections" quoting "Paramatthadiipanii" again. Your: part of BB's introduction to "45 Maggasamyutta" < the disciple undertakes the three ethical factors of the path: right speech, right action, and right livelihood. Standing on this foundation of virtue (see 45:149), the disciple trains the mind by diligently and energerically developing the four establishments of mindfulness >. Viriya. Virati. Ku.n.daliya Sutta: true knowledge and liberation <---- the seven factors of enlightenment <---- the four satipa.t.thaana <---- the three kinds of good conduct <---- restraint of the sense faculties But AdMiration. Lobha doesn't care what it sticks to or whether we are seeing beauty in things that aren't. Lobha is a greedy pig. Pigs are generally considered to live in filthy muck and mired conditions. In a way, what we long for is long for keeping us. Reflecting - dhp vv 1-2 again? A sotaapanna will never become a pig, but who is the untaught ordinary man? And how is he headed/inclined? Say there are only two or three directions. Back and forth: [gratification <====> disappointment] or Escape for the Refugee. This is from, I think, the Introduction to The Guide. Also, there is something like this: ~~ The conversion of relishing (nandiyaavatta) guide-line works with the pair of root-dyads for conversion {of craving's cleaving to its object in the opposite moods of lust and hate referred to by the 'releshing' (abhinandati) of all kind of feeling, as at M.i,266} to the pattern of the 4 Truths, of which the 3rd, namely cessation [which is undetermined (asankhata)], is the meaning (aim). ~~ Joop: I have not stated that everyone should practice jhana; or do you translate in this way my idea that we should practice all eight aspects of the NEP? Connie: What is your idea? and "Practice" is _______? Actually, I was thinking of the "mind-fed, feeding on joy". Goes with the seven suns. But who is to say any "should"? ...right intention? intention of renunciation, intention of non-ill will, of harmlessness. ...right speech? abstention from false, divisive, or harsh speech, and idle chatter. is abstention negative? Connie: "Please give me a positive/attractive expression of: << I undertake the training precept of obstention from dancing, sining, music, and contortionist shows. >> Joop: "obstention" does not occur in my dictionary (between "obstacle" and "obstetric"), perhaps "abstinention"? "contortionist" in my dictionary is something as "rotating"; but who rotates in shows? Connie: sorry for the carelessness, it is "singing" and "abstention". Contortionists... those guys who can fold themselves up to fit into 20 gallon fish tanks as one extreme; "double-jointed". Contort - to twist the truth... to weave our stories? Do you remember what Buddha said about actors' deaths/rebirths by any chance? How about the pranked up puppet with those sensual cords? Contort/distort ... perversions of perception, of memory, of view? "Monks, have you seen a 'picture show'?" The artist, citta. Maybe listening to Bach can be intoxicating. peace, connie 54106 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha (Joop, Howard & all), --- matheesha wrote: > OK, the following might be a bit difficult so read only if you want > to!: ... S: As I said, not at all....very glad to read your comments and thank you, Joop, Howard, Larry, Dan and others for taking the trouble. James - we'll be glad to send you a cd later... Tep? RobM? Did you have the chance to listen? ... > Another thing i noticed was the word panna being used almost as if it > were a paramatta dhamma, as in 'panna knows'. This is a mix of > conventional and ultimate, arguably better than 'I know'. After all > panna is also another label. .... S: When we use 'panna' to communicate like now, it is a label or concept that we use. But it's a label representing a reality, a paramattha dhamma. This relates to the discussion I'm having with Charles D on the difference between 'tree' and 'anger'. We use labels for both, but 'tree' is only ever a concept, an idea, like 'worm'. Anger on the other hand, like panna, has a characteristic which can be directly known. What is such a paramattha dhamma known by? Only by panna. This is the characteristic of panna. I see that you’re having some discussion with others on ‘The Path of Discrimination’, so I just opened this text (rather than an Abhidhamma commentary:-)). From Chapter 1, i “...These ideas (dhammas) are to be directly known. Understanding (pa~n~naa)as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt).” And so it continues. After hearing and considering about dhammas, they can be directly known and so on. It is panna which knows, fully understands and eventually abandons such dhammas and realizes the 4 Noble Truths. ..... > Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her seeming > difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. .... S: More on nibbana to come in the next audio sections. I think the point is that all that can ever be known (yes, by panna:-)) are the namas and rupas appearing now. Nibbana is not apparent and so all we can do is to speculate about it now. It won’t help us realize it at all. Such realization will only come about by highly developed understanding and detachment from the presently conditioned dhammas appearing. .... > > I hope my comments werent too difficult. I hope people appraciate that > i am speaking my mind freely and not trying to couch my language to a > degree that the message becomes blurred. .... S: :-). Thanks for your considerate comments, all of which I’m glad to hear. .... Btw, I also appreciated the sutta you shared, ‘Tayodhammasutta Three Things’(#53565). .... I was also interested in your comments to Phil (#53434) about ‘knowing where to draw the line’ with regards to ‘learning’. Of course the only real ‘learning’ or ‘study’ is with regard to dhammas experienced at this moment (and I think that was your point). I don’t think we have to set any rules about how much or little book study we undertake. I find that when there is confidence that panna really can know any presently appearing dhamma, I really don’t have to think about what activity I’m engaged in or should be engaged in. The understanding and awareness follow the dhammas naturally and easily....and there’s no idea of drawing any line. .... While I’m touching on some of your past posts, I was also touched by your ‘reaching out’ to James and also by James’ trust in us all to share his experiences in the light of the Dhamma. I also appreciated your account of the lady (#52968) and your reflections on treatment options. I used to work in a psychiatric centre a long time ago in London and it wasn’t easy at all. As you say ‘sometimes you just have to let go’. Metta, karuna and upekkha.....especially upekkha are sometimes all that is possible. I’m sure you just do your best with the limited resources available. We’re not ‘world managers’ and it also depends so much on others’ inclinations and circumstances as to what is possible at all. You mention ‘less anger, less sadness’ and somewhere about reducing dukkha in this life (I may have the words wrong). You also say you use various methods to ‘peel away the onion’, lessen suffering and negative patterns. I think this is all fine, but finer still is any understanding of present dhammas as anatta. For understanding to really become a bala (power), I think it has to understand and be detached from even the grossest kinds of negative patterns when they arise. This touches a little on the 3 kinds of dukkha which Howard and Joop picked up from the discussion. We all know about the first kind, ‘dukkha dukkha’ or the unpleasant bodily and mental feelings which arise. No one wants them. To a certain degree, we also know about ‘viparinama dukkha’ or the dukkha of change as we follow our pleasant feelings from one object to the next, like when we try out the different dishes at a lunch spread/buffet. But the Buddha’s teaching is about Dukkha in the ultimate sense, the rising and passing away of all conditioned dhammas now as we speak. This is the dukkha that has to be penetrated and can only be done so by understanding these namas and rupas more and more precisely when they appear through 6 doorways. Just because we find some techniques to avoid unpleasant experiences doesn’t mean we’re any closer at all to understanding dhammas as anatta, as anicca, as dukkha. .... Another one (#53620) – like Tep, I thought you gave a great post with wonderful quotes on hiri and ottappa (shame and remorse). Just to be picky, you mentioned that ‘some people have mental illness because they have too much shame’ such as ‘fear of criticism/shyness’. With respect, I don’t think this kind of shame or fear is the wholesome quality of hiri and ottappa. The words used in translation are misleading. The fear or shyness you refer to is a kind of dosa or aversion. There can never be any such dosa or fear with wholesome the states of dana, sila and bhavana which hiri and ottappa accompany. No downside:-). The final verse you quoted from SN1:18 was beautiful too. (Actually, sometime I’d like you to repost this letter/post, just fine-tuning the paragraph I questioned:-). .... Finally, thank you for posting the Avijja Sutta, SN45:1 (#53670). “Ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities...’ S: This is why ignorance is the only real hindrance to the development of satipatthana. When there is ignorance, there is lack of hiri and ottappa, wrong views arise and the wrong path is followed. ‘Clear knowing (S: pa~n~naa) is the leader in the attainment of skillful qualities...’ S: Back to panna as leader. When there is panna, there is hiri and ottappa and the right path follows. This is the only way that unwholesome states can ever be eradicated completely, not by following methods, techniques or avoiding dukkha dukkha in the long-run. Of course, there are few that can appreciate this and we’re not always willing to hear it even now. Meanwhile, we help others, as you obviously do, with kindness and compassion according to circumstances. In appreciation of your kind deeds and kind posts here as well. Metta, Sarah ======== 54107 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 sarahprocter... Hi Dan, Great to see you around in great form:-) --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I do remember Erik (and fondly). He certainly had a way of turning up > the heat (like me in that respect, but he was much friendlier). .... S: Yes, you both had a way with the heat (which occasionally had us running for the burn cream) and when the two of you got into discussion, it would get very hot round here, but usually a 'friendly hot':-)). We'll have to re-run some of those posts sometime for all the 'newbies'. ... Great > idea to post his discussions. I will listen as time permits. ... S: Thx as always for the encouragement and I also appreciated your special thanks to Rob, Amara & Mike 'whose dedicated and thoughtful participation in the first year or so really helped bring the group to life and give it a lasting soul :)'. Whilst into this nostalgic soul business, I'm sure there are also several others such as yourself, Howard, Bruce (on the tape) and others that come to mind too....As Larry said, it feels like he's been around for at least 16 yrs too.....but I'm hazy about dates....TG & Erik too.... I can say that the only times I've found the co-mod job tough in the slightest have been when any active members have left for any reason. Glad you're in discussion with some of the currently very active members too, like Matheesha (Singhalese English/American??), Tep (Thai American-Tx) & Joop (Dutch Dutch- Holland) -- all camera shy!! Thx also for the kind comments on 'Survey'. I especially appreciate the index with its publication.I think this was Mike's work. Metta, Sarah =========== 54108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi Tep,(and James at end), op 29-12-2005 22:34 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > So each person's path toward Nibbana is analogous to the > climbing upstairs; every step higher up (toward the final achievement) > corresponds to a stage of developed panna. I think you call that > stage "accumulation" of understanding. --------- N: I would like to think also of a beginning understanding just now, while listening and considering. You spoke of a snail, sliding also down off a wall. It is with ups and downs. I do not think now of the highest achievement, I rather think of this moment. -------- T:The "teachability" is a mental > quality that correlates to the accumulation, which depends on many > other factors. ------ N: Right. In Pali veneyya, teachable, used in the Commentaries. When there is a Dhamma discussion, there is a speaker and a listener who can take turns. In order to be able to receive the Dhamma, one must be openminded, ripe for it. The Buddha knew when a person could understand his teaching immediately and attain enlightenment. For others he had a gradual teaching. The Buddha traversed the world with his Buddha Eye and saw who would be ripe for his teaching. All such details show his great compassion. He taught murderers, like Angulimala, but he knew that they had accumulated understanding, even in former lives. Tep, I want to tell you that I appreciate very much your post on listening. Nina. 54109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi James, op 29-12-2005 22:26 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: He taught it to those who were teachable. > > James: I find this to be an unhelpful and unnecessary qualification. > (Could you imagine me saying as a teacher, "Well, I teach only those > who are teachable.") The Buddha didn't turn away anyone- even mass > murderers. ----- N: See my post to Tep. ------ J quotes: That means, to those who had >> accumulated understanding already, had listened in former lives. > > James: Listened to who? ----- N: To the Dhamma, preached even by former Buddhas. ------- J quotes; See the >> Theratherigathaa for examples. > > James: Examples? If this was a necessity there wouldn't be just a > few examples, there would be bold statements and actions by the > Buddha. ------- N: I remember that you, apart from the Diigha Nikaya, also read Theratherigathaa. BTW why don't you share what you read, we are here for giving and sharing Dhamma. Many examples of listening to former Buddhas for aeons. See also the Jatakas, and also in the suttas where the Buddha spoke about former lives. --------- J: Nina, your thinking in this regard is obviously deluded. ----- N: right, the latent tendency of ignorance not eradicated conditions the arising of akusala cittas and these are always accompanied by moha, ignorance. See M.N. 9, Right Understanding. For useful reading: The Roots of Good and Evil, Wheel 6, which James also appreciates very much:< http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/rootsofgoodandevilC.html > When we do not act, speak or think with kusala citta we do so with akusala citta and this is always accompanied by ignorance. Beneficial to know. Understanding of accumulated inclinations helps us to understand that latent tendencies (anusayas) condition the arising of akusala cittas. I hear people say: this is my kamma, but it is essential to be more precise. Kamma, unwholesome volition that motivates evil deeds, has been accumulated and is carried on from moment to moment, so that it can bring result in the form of rebirth-consciousness and unpleasant experiences through the senses. Good and bad inclinations are also accumulated and condition the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas at present. The cittas that are results and the cittas that are cause: kusala and akusala, have to be distinguished from each other. When seeing arises, it is result, and thinking about what is seen is kusala citta or akusala citta. Perhaps you may begin to appreciate the notion of momentariness of different cittas. Nina. 54110 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 jwromeijn Hallo Nina It sound nice to say "I do not like to label", but it's something else. On two levels. First the social level. It's about the willingness to compare the own frame of reference with that of another person. Behind that is the ability to have some reflection on the own frame of reference. It is not so difficult to see that there are different buddhist traditions? To me it's sad that Mahayanists and Theravadins hardly discuss with each other, both in fact neglect or even denie the fact that the other tradition exists. To me it's also important that Buddhists and Islamics or Buddhists and Christians can talk with each other; so let's start discussing with other buddhist traditions. And that's only possible with 'labels', with making explicit the prejudices, tempori . Then the personal level. Most DSG-participants (not all) are converted to Theravada as adults; many time I hear of converts: 'it's like coming home when I discovered buddhism'. But many of us do not take over for hundred percent the ideas of Theravada. Talking about myself: to me not all Mahayana ideas are heretic and some of the Theravada ideas don't fit to me. And in this process of 'what do I really belief" labeling can be helpfull. And I state that in the audio we heard Sujin was not interested in the ideas of Erik, she only wanted to teach Erik. It's impossible to discuss about this things when one thinks only one system is correct, is THE TRUTH (the Abhidhamma system in which for example the distinction kusala-akusala, the distinction ultimate- conventional and panna are playing a central role). When I say "refuse" I mean that you (and as far as I heard/read her, also Sujin) CAN only discuss WITHIN the frame of reference of this Abhidhamma-system) and not ABOUT it. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Joop, > a mistake here. I rather say: I do not like to label this or that like > Mahayana. No refusal, or bad feeling. > Nina. > op 29-12-2005 11:44 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@y...: > > > One of the advantages of hearing it that I better understand some DSG- > > participants like Nina and you, especially the refusal to talk about > > Mahayana. > 54111 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:58am Subject: Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jwromeijn Hi Jon Jon: " Yes, I agree with your characterisation of 'right (kusala) mental state accompanying appropriate bodily action'. As I see it, the appropriate bodily action in the case of right livelihood is forbearing from doing some act of wrong speech or action in the course of one's livelihood that one is otherwise inclined to do. Would you agree that refraining from doing an unwholesome act that one is about to do can be an instance of kusala?" Hm. Your question seems to be so easy (I can simply say 'yes') but is difficult. Because the word 'inclined'. In fact your question is: do human beings have an inclination, and more exactly: do they have a negative inclination? As I said to Connie a week ago, there are three opinions: - deep inside human nature is good (an extreme variant of this is the idea of 'BuddhaNature') - human beings are prone to doing evil (the calvinistic way of thinking) - there is no human nature There is variation in what I think about this, but most times I have the third opinion; your question supposes the second opinion. But why make a detour of the double negation? Why talk about "refraining from doing unwholesome"; I prefer - as said before - a postive formulation of ethics, and will say: "doing wholesome". Metta Joop 54112 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:49am Subject: Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma abhidhammika Dear Dan, Nina, Chris F, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, Bob M, Mike N, Larry and all How are you? Dan wrote: "I've thought about yoniso manasikaaro as a cetasika that determines the character of the immediately subsequent javana cittas as kusala. I do also recall the Buddha's teaching that the two conditions for samaadi.t.thi are listening and yoniso manasikaaro." Suan wrote the following: Listening is live pariyatti, so yoniso manasikaaro must be something else. "Mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" is not a cetasika (a mental associate). It is what A.t.thasaalinii called "javanapa.tipaadako". It is the mental step before the arising of a javana citta. The more common term for it is "manodvaaraavajjana". In a manovinÞnÞaa.naviithi, there arise bhavanga citta, manodvaaraavajjana citta, and javana citta in that order. Thus, "mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" arises between bhavanga citta and javana citta, and is equivalent to manodvaaraavajjana citta. And, when manodvaaraavajjana citta is modified by "yoniso", the following javana citta becomes a kusala javana citta. Listening constitutes learning via sotavinÞnÞaa.na (auditory consciousness) from the right speakers such as Gotama the Buddha or Arahants or their disciples commonly known as Theravada ascetics. Thus, learning Theravada teachings and sensible mental positioning (yoniso manasikaaro) will generate kusala javana cittas (the healthy mental events) with healthy mental associates (kusala cetasikas), which include the Right View at the worldly level (kaamaavacara kusala bhuumi). Later, of course, the Right View will arise at a Transworldly level (lokuttara Bhuumi). Happy New Year! Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: Dear Suan, > How are you? I'm doing quite well. How about yourself? I have a question... > Dan wrote: > > "or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are describing > reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not be > very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in > latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how > things that I have not experienced must be wrong." > > The Buddha has a technical term for your reflection. It is > called "yoniso manasikaaro", sensible mental positioning. > > And, the Buddha also teaches that yoniso manasikaaro is a pre- > requisite for the Right View, sammaadi.t.thi. I was thinking that that reflection was a type of "pariyatti", while the reflection "[the commentaries and Abhidhamma] must be wrong because they are at odds with what I think is right" is conceit. I've thought about yoniso manasikaaro as a cetasika that determines the character of the immediately subsequent javana cittas as kusala. I do also recall the Buddha's teaching that the two conditions for samaadi.t.thi are listening and yoniso manasikaaro. Is pariyatti necessarily kusala? Dan 54113 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Matheesha, Joop, and all) - Sarah, I'll be snipping mostly all except for what I'm replying to. In a message dated 12/30/05 3:04:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Matheesha (Joop, Howard &all), > > --- matheesha wrote: > > >OK, the following might be a bit difficult so read only if you want > >to!: > ... > S: As I said, not at all....very glad to read your comments and thank you, > Joop, Howard, Larry, Dan and others for taking the trouble. > > James - we'll be glad to send you a cd later... > Tep? RobM? Did you have the chance to listen? > ... > >Another thing i noticed was the word panna being used almost as if it > >were a paramatta dhamma, as in 'panna knows'. This is a mix of > >conventional and ultimate, arguably better than 'I know'. After all > >panna is also another label. > .... > S: When we use 'panna' to communicate like now, it is a label or concept > that we use. But it's a label representing a reality, a paramattha dhamma. > This relates to the discussion I'm having with Charles D on the difference > between 'tree' and 'anger'. We use labels for both, but 'tree' is only > ever a concept, an idea, like 'worm'. Anger on the other hand, like panna, > has a characteristic which can be directly known. > > What is such a paramattha dhamma known by? Only by panna. This is the > characteristic of panna. > > I see that you’re having some discussion with others on ‘The Path of > Discrimination’, so I just opened this text (rather than an Abhidhamma > commentary:-)). > > From Chapter 1, i > “...These ideas (dhammas) are to be directly known. Understanding > (pa~n~naa)as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists > in the heard (learnt).â€? > > And so it continues. After hearing and considering about dhammas, they can > be directly known and so on. It is panna which knows, fully understands > and eventually abandons such dhammas and realizes the 4 Noble Truths. > ..... > > >Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her seeming > >difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. > .... > S: More on nibbana to come in the next audio sections. > > I think the point is that all that can ever be known (yes, by panna:-)) > are the namas and rupas appearing now. Nibbana is not apparent and so all > we can do is to speculate about it now. It won’t help us realize it at > all. Such realization will only come about by highly developed > understanding and detachment from the presently conditioned dhammas > appearing. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The foregoing troubles me a bit, Sarah, on several accounts. For one thing, it seems to me that paramattha dhammas are known by many, if not all, of our mental operations, including, among others, vi~n~nana (most especially), sa~n~na (possibly taking second place), and vedana. Also, what exactly *is* pa~n~na? It is made to sound like a "God dhamma" that can be all, see all, and be everywhere. But to me, when our mental faculties function properly, unobscured by defilement, with ignorance out of the way if not uprooted, we *say* that they operate with wisdom. What is right understanding, for example, if not an unobscured, rightly operating recognition (sa~n~na)? Also, the terminology, so common in the writings of Khun Sujin and her students, long the lines of "It is panna which knows, fully understands and eventually abandons such dhammas and realizes the 4 Noble Truths" is very troublesome to me. Even if wisdom is not just the absence of obscuration, even if it is a distinct mental operation, it is not an agent that does things - it is the doing! To say that pa~n~na knows and understands is to reify an operation! The terminology is harmful and misleading, I believe. Pa~n~na, in that sentence, sounds like "the Lord, God," an omniscient being who knows, understands, and not only that, also *abandons*(!), a non-cognitive acting. Pa~n~na is presented as a little divine being. Where is anatta here? -------------------------------------------------- > > This touches a little on the 3 kinds of dukkha which Howard and Joop > picked up from the discussion. We all know about the first kind, ‘dukkha > dukkha’ or the unpleasant bodily and mental feelings which arise. No one > wants them. To a certain degree, we also know about ‘viparinama dukkha’ or > the dukkha of change as we follow our pleasant feelings from one object to > the next, like when we try out the different dishes at a lunch > spread/buffet. But the Buddha’s teaching is about Dukkha in the ultimate > sense, the rising and passing away of all conditioned dhammas now as we > speak. This is the dukkha that has to be penetrated and can only be done > so by understanding these namas and rupas more and more precisely when > they appear through 6 doorways. Just because we find some techniques to > avoid unpleasant experiences doesn’t mean we’re any closer at all to > understanding dhammas as anatta, as anicca, as dukkha. ------------------------------------------- Howard: You speak of a dukkha involving "the rising and passing away of all conditioned dhammas now as we speak," and you say that "this is the dukkha that has to be penetrated and can only be done so by understanding these namas and rupas more and more precisely when they appear through 6 doorways." How is this different from the dukkha of change? What exactly is being referred to here? I have seen the third form of dukkha (besides the obvious dukkha of pain and the much more subtle dukkha of change) referred to as the dukkha of fabrication. Is that what you refer to here? And if so, what exactly does that mean? Is it the fact that nothing is independent, but is fabricated by conditions, most especially sankharic operations, and thus impersonal? Some clarification of terms would be very useful here, I think. -------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54114 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Hi Sarah, Good to hear from you! > a lasting soul :)'. Whilst into this nostalgic soul business, I'm sure > there are also several others such as yourself, Howard, Bruce (on the > tape) and others that come to mind too....As Larry said, it feels like > he's been around for at least 16 yrs too.....but I'm hazy about > dates....TG & Erik too.... I jumped in at the end of November 2000--after you, Jon, Robert, Amara, Mike, et al. did the difficult and critical work of getting the enterprise off the ground. Howard jumped in a few months after that with Erik at about the same time. Prior to finding dsg I remember discussing Dhamma with Erik in another online forum. He went by the wonderful pseudonym "Sam A. Vaca". After having some discussions with Erik on dsg, I e-mailed Sam to tell him that he should look into dsg for some great discussion. I think that's when he called me a "silly goose". Kom was another first year pillar. And Alex. Sukin and James (and Anders and Erik) were all active in the second year. > I can say that the only times I've found the co-mod job tough in the > slightest have been when any active members have left for any reason. But sometimes they reappear with a different name and with a different writing style (like our dear Dhamma friend Bhikkhu Samahita). Will we ever see Kom again? I wonder... Were the other voices on the tape Amara's and Sukin's? > Glad you're in discussion with some of the currently very active members > too, like Matheesha (Singhalese English/American??), Tep (Thai > American-Tx) & Joop (Dutch Dutch- Holland) -- all camera shy!! It is certainly nice to hear their wisdom (and not TOO painful to suffer their occasional bites). With great appreciation (as always), Dan 54115 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:00am Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Your last post (# 54108) was very useful and I found it to be quite agreeable too. >N: In order to be able to receive the Dhamma, one must be openminded, ripe for it. The Buddha knew when a person could understand his teaching immediately and attain enlightenment. For others he had a gradual teaching. The Buddha traversed the world with his Buddha Eye and saw who would be ripe for his teaching. All such details show his great compassion. He taught murderers, like Angulimala, but he knew that they had accumulated understanding, even in former lives. >Tep, I want to tell you that I appreciate very much your post on listening. Tep: Thank you very much for the feedback, Nina. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep,(and James at end), > op 29-12-2005 22:34 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > So each person's path toward Nibbana is analogous to the > > climbing upstairs; every step higher up (toward the final achievement) > > corresponds to a stage of developed panna. I think you call that > > stage "accumulation" of understanding. > --------- > N: I would like to think also of a beginning understanding just now, while > listening and considering. You spoke of a snail, sliding also down off a > wall. It is with ups and downs. I do not think now of the highest > achievement, I rather think of this moment. > -------- > > T:The "teachability" is a mental > > quality that correlates to the accumulation, which depends on many > > other factors. > ------ > (snipped) 54116 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, Comments interspersed... > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it's just a concentrative calming activity. It was useful for me > at one point at the retreat. > ----------------------------------------- I find similar techniques often useful in daily life and that they can bring great benefits. Dan:>> The most useful dealing-with-stuff technique I learned at meditation > > retreats is the special Goenka method for going to sleep... > --------------------------------- > Howard: > That's interesting. I think you might try extending that work *into* > the sleep state, so that mindfulness could be applied during sleep in lucid > dreaming. I've often thought that inasmuch as 1/3 of our time is spent asleep, > that practice could be very profitable. > ----------------------------------- I've sometimes wondered about the arising of mindfulness in certain sleep states, like lucid dreaming. I don't see why it would not be possible. In a sense, isn't jhana the sleeping of the hindrances and the awakening to a fixed object? I say that because when the chattering mind is silenced with the arising of very deep concentration, it feels like part of the mind has gone to sleep. That being said, isn't falling asleep while meditating evidence of non- establishment of mindfulness? And does the Goenka method (or the Mahasi method) really lead to the arising of the sammasati? [Perennial dsg discussion topic...] > Howard: The no-self experience had the main > consequences of 1) persuading me that sense of self and the subject- object mode > of experience are unnecessary for experience to occur, Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a gradual unfolding? > 2) giving me enormous confidence in the Buddha and his teaching I'm tempted to echo what a good Christian friend of mine says whenever kusala is noted: "Praise God!" Christine once asked how she should channel a strong, momentary sense of gratitude for life, for a lovely sunset, etc. If I recall, she was struggling because she felt like her sense of appreciation was in some way directed to God or was bothered because she didn't know how it was directed. I didn't follow the discussion so I don't know how it was finally resolved. Pity. In this case, mudita arises! Anumodana. [This case is easier than Christine's because it is obviously my rejoicing in your success. What is it called when appreciative joy arises on account of one's own kusala?] > 3) preparing the way for me to let go of "hoping" under what would usually be very trying circumstances, and > thereby handling those circumstances with ease. (That last business pertained to > when it was thought, a couple years after the retreat, that I might well die, > due to a misdiagnosed condition. I believe that the no-self experience had > changed me sufficiently to enable me to relinquish hoping for matters to be > other than they seemed. I knew that hoping was just a form of craving, and that it > would produce suffering, and I was able to be at peace, not striving for a > continuation of this life. Mudita! Mudita! > As to this more recent matter, it's not so much that I like this "wave > theory," but just that sharp endings and beginnings are not part of my > experience - I just don't find them, and I don't see their necessity either. This sounds like a healthy attitude--sort of like Goenka's black stone story (the moral of the story was that when part of the Dhamma doesn't seem necessary or even correct, just set it aside, "I don't see that now, but I'll keep it the description in the back of my mind and maybe it will make more sense later.") > "wave theory," it is just a tentative model, and dispensable. Further with > regard to the "packet theory", I see problems with it soteriologically, as > regards reification. I think you are right that the "packet theory" involves reification. I think you are wrong that the Abhidhamma and commentaries propound a "packet theory". In any case, it is sufficient for me to see that at any point > in time, there is present an object of awareness and the knowing of it, along > with a variety of other operations in effect, that at prior times things were > different, and in the future will be different yet again, and that those > presently occurring operations etc are interrelated in various ways, they came > about utterly dependent on a variety of prior conditions, equally without > own-being, that they are all impersonal and, once the conditions for their occurrence > were all in place, their arising was a fait accompli and beyond control. Ditto. With Mudita, Dan 54117 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/30/05 11:24:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Comments interspersed... > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, it's just a concentrative calming activity. It was > useful for me > >at one point at the retreat. > >----------------------------------------- > > I find similar techniques often useful in daily life and that they > can bring great benefits. > > Dan:>> The most useful dealing-with-stuff technique I learned at > meditation > >>retreats is the special Goenka method for going to sleep... > > >--------------------------------- > >Howard: > > That's interesting. I think you might try extending that > work *into* > >the sleep state, so that mindfulness could be applied during sleep > in lucid > >dreaming. I've often thought that inasmuch as 1/3 of our time is > spent asleep, > >that practice could be very profitable. > >----------------------------------- > > I've sometimes wondered about the arising of mindfulness in certain > sleep states, like lucid dreaming. I don't see why it would not be > possible. In a sense, isn't jhana the sleeping of the hindrances and > the awakening to a fixed object? I say that because when the > chattering mind is silenced with the arising of very deep > concentration, it feels like part of the mind has gone to sleep. That > being said, isn't falling asleep while meditating evidence of non- > establishment of mindfulness? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Probabaly so in 99% of the cases! ;-) But, as a separate matter, mindfulness and careful investigation of apparent sensations is possible during lucid dreaming. ---------------------------------------- And does the Goenka method (or the > > Mahasi method) really lead to the arising of the sammasati? > [Perennial dsg discussion topic...] ----------------------------------------- Howard: The Goenka method seemed to for me. Sloth and torpor, most specifically the tendency to fall asleep during meditation, are prominent among the meditation hindrances I face. I find that the Goenka approach creates a clarity for me that is very helpful in overcoming these hindrances. ------------------------------------------ > > >Howard: The no-self experience had the main > >consequences of 1) persuading me that sense of self and the subject- > object mode > >of experience are unnecessary for experience to occur, > > Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a > gradual unfolding? ---------------------------------------- Howard: It was immediate and very clear. It was the most striking characteristic of the experience. (The second most striking characteristic, unfortunately, was an abject terror! ;-) --------------------------------------- > > >2) giving me enormous confidence in the Buddha and his teaching > > I'm tempted to echo what a good Christian friend of mine says > whenever kusala is noted: "Praise God!" Christine once asked how she > should channel a strong, momentary sense of gratitude for life, for a > lovely sunset, etc. If I recall, she was struggling because she felt > like her sense of appreciation was in some way directed to God or was > bothered because she didn't know how it was directed. I didn't follow > the discussion so I don't know how it was finally resolved. Pity. In > this case, mudita arises! Anumodana. [This case is easier than > Christine's because it is obviously my rejoicing in your success. > What is it called when appreciative joy arises on account of one's > own kusala?] --------------------------------------- Howard: A good question! ;-) --------------------------------------- > > >3) preparing the way for me to let go of "hoping" under what would > usually be very trying circumstances, and > >thereby handling those circumstances with ease. (That last business > pertained to > >when it was thought, a couple years after the retreat, that I might > well die, > >due to a misdiagnosed condition. I believe that the no-self > experience had > >changed me sufficiently to enable me to relinquish hoping for > matters to be > >other than they seemed. I knew that hoping was just a form of > craving, and that it > >would produce suffering, and I was able to be at peace, not > striving for a > >continuation of this life. > > Mudita! Mudita! > > > As to this more recent matter, it's not so much that I like > this "wave > >theory," but just that sharp endings and beginnings are not part of > my > >experience - I just don't find them, and I don't see their > necessity either. > > This sounds like a healthy attitude--sort of like Goenka's black > stone story (the moral of the story was that when part of the Dhamma > doesn't seem necessary or even correct, just set it aside, "I don't > see that now, but I'll keep it the description in the back of my mind > and maybe it will make more sense later.") > > >"wave theory," it is just a tentative model, and dispensable. > Further with > >regard to the "packet theory", I see problems with it > soteriologically, as > >regards reification. > > I think you are right that the "packet theory" involves reification. > I think you are wrong that the Abhidhamma and commentaries propound > a "packet theory". ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, perhaps so. But if so, I still seem to see that somehow some Abhidhamma and commentarial enthusiasts seem to gravitate to such a view. --------------------------------------- > > In any case, it is sufficient for me to see that at any point > >in time, there is present an object of awareness and the knowing of > it, along > >with a variety of other operations in effect, that at prior times > things were > >different, and in the future will be different yet again, and that > those > >presently occurring operations etc are interrelated in various > ways, they came > >about utterly dependent on a variety of prior conditions, equally > without > >own-being, that they are all impersonal and, once the conditions > for their occurrence > >were all in place, their arising was a fait accompli and beyond > control. > > Ditto. > > With Mudita, > > Dan > ====================== With metta and the wish for a peaceful and fruitful new year for you, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54118 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:19am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Hi Matheesha, Comments interspersed... > D: I agree that she made it seem like there is an > > substantial and essential distinction between the absolute and the > > conceptual, and isn't it a debilitating error to confuse the two? > > M: Indeed. Even more debilitating is to delete from the conceptual > framework things like meditation, monkhood because of knowing > something halfway. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, > espceially dhamma knowledge. In your mind, is there a distinction between conceptual meditation and real meditation? Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood? > > So, is there a method for getting from concept to paramattha? If > so, > > please explain! > > > > M: I have a better idea. Have a good try at this. Can you, using all > the knowledge that you have in the suttas and commentaries come up > with a good way to go about this?! Yes, no, and yes-no. Yes: The Buddha very explicitly describes the path. No: Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." Yes-no: Buddha does say that the conditions for awareness to arise are listening and yoniso manasikaro. But listening can be done with right or wrong intent, and I think no one would argue that listening with wrong intent gives rise to satipatthana. And yoniso manasikara precedes the javana process and is not something that can be conjured by following some method, rite, or ritual. In fact, belief in the efficacy of rite or ritual to conjure wisdom is one of the three fetters that is shattered at the first moment of supramundane path consciousness. How is a reading of, say, the satipatthana sutta as an instruction book any different from a rite or ritual? > M: Saying that understanding arises via a cetasaika, and > saying 'panna knows' are two differnt things. Panna is just a label. > A container. A holdall to capture understanding that suddenly arises > to everything you have ever understood about the dhamma from the day > you started coming into contact with it. It is in itself concept. > You could also say the self is the five aggregates, -nama and rupa. I see your point about the labeling-- there is a danger in thinking about dhammas as "little selves", it is crucial not to confuse a label with a thing or a dhamma with an entity. "Panya" is a label, but panya is a cetasika, a paramattha dhamma. I agree that it is more accurate to say "panya is 'knowing' (or 'understanding')" than "panya knows." It is easy to convince oneself that the way one understands a term from the list of paramattha dhammas is as a paramattha dhamma rather than as a concept. For example, someone might say, "Citta is a paramattha dhamma," but then have a purely conceptualized notion of citta in mind that is not at all a paramattha dhamma because the person does not understand either 'citta' or 'paramattha'. > D: > I agree that the language of "panna knows", "seeing sees" etc. > is > > difficult to stomach. It seems on the one hand redundant (snip) > And would a mind that is not > > intent on reification reify any more with "panna knows" than it > would > > with "understanding arises"? > > M: Well like you said, this is also a good step in the right > direction. 'I know' --> 'panna knows' --> 'there is knowing'. Language is important, but ultimately all language misses the mark. Development of understanding is much more than just getting the language right. A certain figment of language might seriously mislead one person while giving another person invaluable, right guidance along the path. > D: > I think the small triangle that we see is the entry way into > the > > teachings. Without a discernment of the distinction between > concept > > and reality there is no discernment of the path. Another way of > > teaching would be to talk about all the stories and concepts > without > > emphasizing panya or discernment or understanding. But, really, > would > > of the Buddha's teaching would then be learned? > > M: I dont know what methods you have encountered apart fron goenka, > so i would say not to be too hasty to judge everyone on the planet. > The buddha never made the differenece clear of these two, never used > the word pannati, except to imply it, so perhaps there is more to > all the other methods than meets the eye/understanding? LOL! Where did that don't-judge-everyone-on-the-planet comment come from? My question is sincere. How does Buddha's teaching differ substantively from that of other spiritual guides other than on his emphasis and description of panya/discernment/understanding? [As for 'methods' apart from Goenka, I presume you are referring to meditation instruction. In addition to four 10-day Goenka retreats and a Goenka Satipattha retreat (8-days?), I worked one on one with Jitamaro Bhikkhu in Thailand for two weeks in 1988 (Mahasi's method) and one on one with Phramaha Sawai Nyanaviro for four weeks in 1989 (Mahasi-style). This was supplemented with home practice for 1-2 hours per day for 10-12 years (with an occasional 8-10 hour day as well).] > D:> I think those who see paramattha totally disregard the > conventional > > when it comes to developing insight. > > M: Without direct understanding insight is partial. Thats why these > funny errors creep in. Without direct understanding, insight is null. With direct insight short of the arahatta path, funny errors creep in. Even with direct insight at the level of arahatta, errors in language and pedagogy can still creep in. We take it as given that insight at the level of sammasambuddha precludes even errors in language and pedagogy. > M:> > Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her > seeming > > > difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. > > > D: > I thought she sounded like she was trying to get Erik not to > > speculate about nibbana because although speculation, theorizing, > > conceptualizing are fun intellectual exercises that build up a > strong > > sense of "I know", ultimately they are not helpful in developing > > insight. > > M: I agree, Time to put down the books,stop talking and start > experiencing. Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! I think Khun Sujin would also agree and even takes it a step further when she keeps bringing the discussion back to reality at the present moment and away from defining, discussing, and comparing definitions from Tibetan traditions and Theravada traditions and Zen and away from speculations about states (like nibbana) that one has not experienced. With metta from your new friend in Dhamma, Dan 54119 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:33am Subject: Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi James, It's nice to hear from you again. > [Yes, James, I know, "Bad student! Not > > doing what the teacher says. Not properly applying the technique." > > But I believe any fair evaluation of any student's efforts at a > > meditation retreat would be "improper application of the technique > > >99% of the time".] > > > ;-)) I don't have any issues with you using the Goenka method to > fall asleep faster. That sounds like a very handy talent to have, > and one which I share with you. I am also able to fall asleep quite > quickly due to my meditation practice. Glad to hear it! Wonderful technique, but in my experience it does take a good deal of practice for it to be a powerful tool. > As far as your other observation about: "But I believe any fair > evaluation of any student's efforts at a meditation retreat would > be "improper application of the technique >99% of the time" I'm not > sure if I agree with your statistic but you do bring up an important > point. At most modern meditation retreats people don't completely > follow the technique taught to them. Why? I believe it is because > of the separation from the meditation teacher. Goenka has his > retreats lead by videotaped lectures!! Personally, I don't believe > that one is going to get much teaching from a videotape. One needs > to be in the physical presence of the teacher, the master, to really > gain good and lasting benefit (and, btw, I don't agree with Goenka's > technique). I think it's a much deeper problem than that, James. For example, a meditation instructor might say, "When the mind strays from the primary meditation object, calmly note [e.g.] 'thinking, thinking' and return to the primary object." Now, in an hour of sitting, say you notice distractions 40 times. How many times were there distractions upon distractions that were not noticed? 4000 would be a vast underestimate... > I have been fortunate to work one-on-one with a respected meditation > teacher from Thailand, Ajahn Somporn. I believe that one needs to > work directly with a wise and established teacher to understand the > benefit of practice and to keep practicing. If not, personal > confusion and delusion will lead the practitioner to experiment in > all sorts of varied and unhelpful ways. Lots of valuable time will > be lost. I'm glad for your relationship with Ajahn Somporn. I wish you the best and that your understanding continues to deepen. Dan 54120 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:41am Subject: Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma onco111 Thanks for the detailed explanation of yoniso manasikaaro. It is of course citta (manodvaaraavajjana) and not cetasika. Did you happen to hear Sarah's discussion about pariyatti? She claims that listening/reading/discussing is pariyatti only when the attention falls to the present presence (or absense) of the states under discussion; when there is no reflection on the current states, there is no pariyatti. I'm sure she could explain much more clearly than I, but what is your understanding of pariyatti? E.g., if I listen to Buddhadhamma with the intent to argue against it, is it pariyatti? Can pariyatti be akusala? Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Dan, Nina, Chris F, Sarah, Jon, Robert K, Bob M, Mike N, Larry > and all > > How are you? > > Dan wrote: > > "I've thought about yoniso manasikaaro as a cetasika that determines > the character of the immediately subsequent javana cittas as kusala. > I do also recall the Buddha's teaching that the two conditions for > samaadi.t.thi are listening and yoniso manasikaaro." > > Suan wrote the following: > > Listening is live pariyatti, so yoniso manasikaaro must be something > else. > > "Mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" is not a > cetasika (a mental associate). It is what A.t.thasaalinii > called "javanapa.tipaadako". It is the mental step before the > arising of a javana citta. The more common term for it > is "manodvaaraavajjana". > > In a manovinÞ®Þ¡a.naviithi, there arise bhavanga citta, > manodvaaraavajjana citta, and javana citta in that order. > > Thus, "mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" arises > between bhavanga citta and javana citta, and is equivalent to > manodvaaraavajjana citta. > > And, when manodvaaraavajjana citta is modified by "yoniso", the > following javana citta becomes a kusala javana citta. > > Listening constitutes learning via sotavinÞ®Þ¡a.na (auditory > consciousness) from the right speakers such as Gotama the Buddha or > Arahants or their disciples commonly known as Theravada ascetics. > > Thus, learning Theravada teachings and sensible mental positioning > (yoniso manasikaaro) will generate kusala javana cittas (the healthy > mental events) with healthy mental associates (kusala cetasikas), > which include the Right View at the worldly level (kaamaavacara > kusala bhuumi). Later, of course, the Right View will arise at a > Transworldly level (lokuttara Bhuumi). > > Happy New Year! > > Suan > > www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > Dear Suan, > > How are you? > I'm doing quite well. How about yourself? > > I have a question... > > > Dan wrote: > > > > "or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are > describing > > reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not > be > > very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in > > latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how > > things that I have not experienced must be wrong." > > > > The Buddha has a technical term for your reflection. It is > > called "yoniso manasikaaro", sensible mental positioning. > > > > And, the Buddha also teaches that yoniso manasikaaro is a pre- > > requisite for the Right View, sammaadi.t.thi. > > I was thinking that that reflection was a type of "pariyatti", while > the reflection "[the commentaries and Abhidhamma] must be wrong > because they are at odds with what I think is right" is conceit. > > I've thought about yoniso manasikaaro as a cetasika that determines > the character of the immediately subsequent javana cittas as kusala. > I do also recall the Buddha's teaching that the two conditions for > samaadi.t.thi are listening and yoniso manasikaaro. > > Is pariyatti necessarily kusala? > > Dan > 54121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... nilovg Hi Howard, paññaa cetasika arises and then falls away immediately. It arises because of the proper conditions, and it accompanies kusala citta. There are four types of mahaakusala citta with paññaa: two with happy feeling, two with indifferent feeling, one is unprompted, one is prompted. This may help you to see that it is not an eternal permanent god. It performs a function, it illuminates the object that is experienced by the citta it accompanies. I know here is a difficulty for the phenomenologist: the 'it' that knows. You will stress just the knowing. So let us say: paññaa is the understanding. Nothing to do with a god or a self. Nina. op 30-12-2005 16:17 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I believe. Pa~n~na, in that > sentence, sounds like "the Lord, God," an omniscient being who knows, > understands, > and not only that, also *abandons*(!), a non-cognitive acting. Pa~n~na is > presented as a little divine being. Where is anatta here? 54122 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/05 2:08:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > paññaa cetasika arises and then falls away immediately. It arises because of > the proper conditions, and it accompanies kusala citta. There are four types > of mahaakusala citta with paññaa: two with happy feeling, two with > indifferent feeling, one is unprompted, one is prompted. This may help you > to see that it is not an eternal permanent god. > It performs a function, it illuminates the object that is experienced by the > citta it accompanies. > I know here is a difficulty for the phenomenologist: the 'it' that knows. > You will stress just the knowing. So let us say: paññaa is the > understanding. Nothing to do with a god or a self. > Nina. > ======================= Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Nina. I hope that you and Lodewijk have a peaceful, fruitful new year, filled with the good health and much joy! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54123 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:23am Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > op 29-12-2005 22:26 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > He taught it to those who were teachable. > > > > James: I find this to be an unhelpful and unnecessary qualification. > > (Could you imagine me saying as a teacher, "Well, I teach only those > > who are teachable.") The Buddha didn't turn away anyone- even mass > > murderers. > ----- > N: See my post to Tep. James: I read the post and I don't see a direct answer to my question: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? I know the answer: No; but you seem to be side-stepping this issue once again (that infernal 'DSG Shuffle'). It's nice that you gave the Pali for 'teachable', but that is beside the point. Nina, I keep harping on this issue because your reliance on 'accumulations' is practically supersititious in application. You speak about accumulations and yet you do not know anyone's accumulations, including your own. The Buddha didn't put this emphasis on accumulations which you place and I don't see the need for it. I am reminded of these words from Shakespeare: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings. -Julius Caesar, Act I, Scene 2 > ------ > J quotes: That means, to those who had > >> accumulated understanding already, had listened in former lives. > > > > James: Listened to who? > ----- > N: To the Dhamma, preached even by former Buddhas. James: You know this?? Are you omniscient? > ------- > J quotes; See the > >> Theratherigathaa for examples. > > > > James: Examples? If this was a necessity there wouldn't be just a > > few examples, there would be bold statements and actions by the > > Buddha. > ------- > N: I remember that you, apart from the Diigha Nikaya, also read > Theratherigathaa. BTW why don't you share what you read, we are here for > giving and sharing Dhamma. James: I usually share lots of sutta quotes, but I cannot prove a negative. If you say that the Buddha turned away people as being 'unteachable' due to accumulations, then the burden of proof is on you. > Many examples of listening to former Buddhas for aeons. See also the > Jatakas, and also in the suttas where the Buddha spoke about former lives. > --------- James: I am aware that we all have former lives. This is beside the point. Again, DSG Shuffle. > > J: Nina, your thinking in this regard is obviously deluded. > ----- > N: right, James: I read in another thread to Tep where you said you believe you are never deluded, that you are never wrong. You have complete confidence in everything you think and believe. This seems to be a contradiction. But, really, I can't quite understand what you are saying. Your feet are moving too fast. ;-)) the latent tendency of ignorance not eradicated conditions the > arising of akusala cittas and these are always accompanied by moha, > ignorance. See M.N. 9, Right Understanding. > > For useful reading: The Roots of Good and Evil, Wheel 6, which James also > appreciates very much:< > http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/rootsofgoodandevilC.html > > > When we do not act, speak or think with kusala citta we do so with akusala > citta and this is always accompanied by ignorance. Beneficial to know. James: Yes, it sure is. Although there are degrees of akusala. It isn't as black or white as you suggest. > Understanding of accumulated inclinations helps us to understand that latent > tendencies (anusayas) condition the arising of akusala cittas. I hear people > say: this is my kamma, but it is essential to be more precise. > Kamma, unwholesome volition that motivates evil deeds, has been accumulated > and is carried on from moment to moment, so that it can bring result in the > form of rebirth-consciousness and unpleasant experiences through the senses. James: I don't believe that everything we experience is the result of kamma. You have Phil convinced of this but not me. Kamma is much more complicated and there are various factors, other than kamma, which determine what we experience- including simple accidents. > Good and bad inclinations are also accumulated and condition the arising of > kusala cittas and akusala cittas at present. The cittas that are results and > the cittas that are cause: kusala and akusala, have to be distinguished from > each other. > When seeing arises, it is result, and thinking about what is seen is kusala > citta or akusala citta. > Perhaps you may begin to appreciate the notion of momentariness of different > cittas. James: I appreciate the 'emptiness' of conditioned phenomenon. "Momentariness of cittas" is okay but doesn't really hit home for me. Doesn't matter really, they are both mental crutches. > Nina. > Metta, James 54124 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 mlnease Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 > Thx also for the kind comments on 'Survey'. I especially appreciate the > index with its publication.I think this was Mike's work. Thanks for the credit but I think what little work I attempted was lost--this should rightly go to Rob K. mike 54125 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma mlnease Hi Suan, VERY interesting. If I'd ever heard (or read) of manasikaaro defined as manodvaaraavajjana, I didn't understand or remember it, even though I must've read it in A.t.thasaalinii. Thanks a million for pointing this out. mike p.s. So what conditions yoniso manodvaaraavajjana? ----- Original Message ----- From: "abhidhammika" To: Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:49 AM Subject: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma "Mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" is not a cetasika (a mental associate). It is what A.t.thasaalinii called "javanapa.tipaadako". It is the mental step before the arising of a javana citta. The more common term for it is "manodvaaraavajjana". In a manovinnaa.naviithi, there arise bhavanga citta, manodvaaraavajjana citta, and javana citta in that order. Thus, "mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" arises between bhavanga citta and javana citta, and is equivalent to manodvaaraavajjana citta. And, when manodvaaraavajjana citta is modified by "yoniso", the following javana citta becomes a kusala javana citta. 54126 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The proximate cause of Sati (=Awareness) ? nilovg Hi Matheesha, the view is rectified, it condiitons right view, paññaa. Compare also Tep's post on listening well. When 'we' listen, kusala saññaa, remembrance, assists the kusala citta and it can become firm remembrance of the Dhamma. A great and essential help. Nina. op 29-12-2005 14:31 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > 021.02. Bhikkhus, these five are the results of listening to the > Teaching. What five? > 54127 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi James, I tried to answer as best as I could in my former post, and shall we let the matter rest for a while? I am not so much in the mood for debating, very busy with some projects, Nina. op 30-12-2005 20:23 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: I read the post and I don't see a direct answer to my > question: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? I > know the answer: No; but you seem to be side-stepping this issue > once again (that infernal 'DSG Shuffle'). It's nice that you gave > the Pali for 'teachable', but that is beside the point. 54128 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - nilovg Hi Howard, thank you very much. Also our best wishes to your family, and especially to your grand daughter. I thought of her this morning and hope she is well. Nina. op 30-12-2005 20:22 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Nina. I hope that you and Lodewijk > have a peaceful, fruitful new year, filled with the good health and much joy! 54129 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/05 2:59:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > thank you very much. Also our best wishes to your family, and especially to > your grand daughter. I thought of her this morning and hope she is well. -------------------------------- Howard: Thank you so much, Nina! She *does* seem to be doing well it happens. :-) ------------------------------- > Nina. > ================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54130 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 0:43pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 matheesha333 Hi Dan, my new dhamma friend! > > D: I agree that she made it seem like there is an > > > substantial and essential distinction between the absolute and > the > > > conceptual, and isn't it a debilitating error to confuse the two? > > > > M: Indeed. Even more debilitating is to delete from the conceptual > > framework things like meditation, monkhood because of knowing > > something halfway. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, > > espceially dhamma knowledge. > >D: In your mind, is there a distinction between conceptual meditation > and real meditation? Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood? M: Sorry i havent been clear. What i meant by conceptual framework, was the conceptual framework KS has about the dhamma and 'how it works'. > > So, is there a method for getting from concept to paramattha? > > M: Can you, using > all > > the knowledge that you have in the suttas and commentaries come up > > with a good way to go about this?! > > Yes, no, and yes-no. > Yes: The Buddha very explicitly describes the path. > No: Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." M: :), look at ven Ananda telling ven vangisa 'how he should purify his mind'. Its staring at you in the face but you refuse to accept it (rather than thinking there might be another explanation for these verses -which you havent discovered yet-, you rather believe that the buddha spoke in a funny stilted way and that everybody else is wrong)! Amazing! 'Then venerable Vaïgãsa said this stanza to venerable ânanda: My mind is burning with sensual greed, I am a disciple of Gotama; Please tell me, how should I purify my mind? (ânanda:) Your mind is burning because of a distorted perception Avoid that passionate sign, you have welcomed Reflect determinations as foreign, unpleasant and lacking a self. Extinguish greed altogether and do not be burnt again and again. Develop loathsomeness and concentrate the mind in one point. Develop mindfulness of the body for welfare and turn away with disgust Develop the mind without a sign and expel the tendency to measure. Thus overcoming measuring live appeased. D:> Yes-no: Buddha does say that the conditions for awareness to arise > are listening and yoniso manasikaro. M: I'll take this up more fully in replying to Tep's post on listening. D:But listening can be done with > right or wrong intent, and I think no one would argue that listening > with wrong intent gives rise to satipatthana. And yoniso manasikara > precedes the javana process and is not something that can be conjured > by following some method, rite, or ritual. In fact, belief in the > efficacy of rite or ritual to conjure wisdom is one of the three > fetters that is shattered at the first moment of supramundane path > consciousness. M: Its Dejavu on this egroup. i had a long discussing recently with nina on this. I dont know if i have the motivation to reply to this! Maybe if we take it slowly. Right intention and wrong intention. Samma cetana? micca cetana? could you clarify what you meant a bit more? > How is a reading of, say, the satipatthana sutta as an instruction > book any different from a rite or ritual? M; If you did it properly you might find out! Because following it gives rise to direct experiencing,panna and a lot more my friend. D:> Language is important, but ultimately all language misses the mark. > Development of understanding is much more than just getting the > language right. A certain figment of language might seriously mislead > one person while giving another person invaluable, right guidance > along the path. M: I agree. > > M: I dont know what methods you have encountered apart fron goenka, > > so i would say not to be too hasty to judge everyone on the planet. > > The buddha never made the differenece clear of these two, never > used > > the word pannati, except to imply it, so perhaps there is more to > > all the other methods than meets the eye/understanding? > > LOL! Where did that don't-judge-everyone-on-the-planet comment come > from? M: Well you do know that only KS and her followers approach Buddhism quite like this, and the rest of the world differently dont you? Besided you havent answered my question ;) D:> My question is sincere. How does Buddha's teaching differ > substantively from that of other spiritual guides other than on his > emphasis and description of panya/discernment/understanding? M: Oh you are right on this. It also differes in a very important way that Ks is missing out. That is how to experience paramatta which the buddha has clearly outlined, but KS clearly rejects - which leaves all of her follows in a bit a difficult situation - knowing so much theory but having little direct experiencing/insight. D:> [As for 'methods' apart from Goenka, I presume you are referring to > meditation instruction. In addition to four 10-day Goenka retreats > and a Goenka Satipattha retreat (8-days?), I worked one on one with > Jitamaro Bhikkhu in Thailand for two weeks in 1988 (Mahasi's method) > and one on one with Phramaha Sawai Nyanaviro for four weeks in 1989 > (Mahasi-style). This was supplemented with home practice for 1-2 > hours per day for 10-12 years (with an occasional 8-10 hour day as > well).] M: So basically your vipassana has been Mahasi. Your reservations about meditation are understandable now. My teacher was a mahasi dropout and developed a different system because he was dissatisfied with mahasi! He teaches jhana and a vipassana method which doesnt have labelling, just experiencing. I experienced the first jhana two weeks into starting meditation at home. I had my anatta experience about and hour into my first vipassana session. I experienced all arupa in 6 months. To say the least, it has been fruitful for me. Then again we need to consider why Howard understood anatta by using goenka and but it didnt work for you. > We take it as given that insight at the level of > sammasambuddha precludes even errors in language and pedagogy. M: Interesting. I didnt know that. D: > I think Khun Sujin would also agree and even takes it a step further > when she keeps bringing the discussion back to reality at the present > moment M: Yes, I like that about her teaching. D: ..and away from defining, discussing, and comparing definitions > from Tibetan traditions and Theravada traditions and Zen and away > from speculations about states (like nibbana) that one has not > experienced. M: Yes better not to speculate about what one doesnt know. But it does bring up question about her ability to lead others atleast to a state of sotapanna if she doesnt know how to get there herself. metta Matheesha 54131 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:30pm Subject: Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, Comments interspersed... > Howard: > Probabaly so in 99% of the cases! ;-) But, as a separate matter, > mindfulness and careful investigation of apparent sensations is possible during > lucid dreaming. Having experienced lucid dreaming only on one (or two?) occasions, I can't offer very much here--only that lucid dreaming can occur and it is a peculiar sensation. > ---------------------------------------- > And does the Goenka method (or the > > > Mahasi method) really lead to the arising of the sammasati? > > [Perennial dsg discussion topic...] > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Goenka method seemed to for me. Sloth and torpor, most > specifically the tendency to fall asleep during meditation, are prominent among the > meditation hindrances I face. I find that the Goenka approach creates a clarity for > me that is very helpful in overcoming these hindrances. > ------------------------------------------ Yes. I agree that Goenka approach can be helpful for overcoming (or more accurately, suppressing or avoiding) the hindrances; but don't you agree that there is a clear distinction between cultivating a suppression of the hindrances and the arising of insight? > > Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a > > gradual unfolding? > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > It was immediate and very clear. It was the most striking > characteristic of the experience. (The second most striking characteristic, unfortunately, > was an abject terror! ;-) > --------------------------------------- Was the fear immediate, with the "anatta experience", or was there a discernable moment or two before the fear arose as a response? >> Dan: I think you are right that the "packet theory" involves reification. I think you are wrong that the Abhidhamma and commentaries propound a "packet theory". > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, perhaps so. But if so, I still seem to see that somehow some > Abhidhamma and commentarial enthusiasts seem to gravitate to such a view. > --------------------------------------- I'm sure that's true, but I don't think it's fruitful to speculate about specific people or to hold friends in such judgment. The Aranavibhanga sutta (MN 139) discusses alternative ways to talk about Dhamma. Instead of saying things like, "All those engaged in the pursuit of...sensual desires...are beset by suffering, vexation, [etc.]"[MN139:7] and pointing the finger, better to limit the discussion to Dhamma, stating, e.g. "The pursuit [of sense desire] is a state beset by suffering, vexation, [etc]." [MN139:8]. > ====================== > With metta and the wish for a peaceful and fruitful new year for you, > Howard Howard, you are a true gentleman. Best wishes to you and your family in the new year. Dan 54132 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:43pm Subject: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma onco111 Hi Mike, This topic came up once a few years ago too. I believe it was Suan who so clearly described it then as well. There's also a paragraph about it in CMA (III:13(iv)). BB may be drawing from Asl in his explanation (which, by the way, doesn't explicitly class yoniso manasikaara with manodvaravajjana--if you find a clearer reference in, say, Asl or VbhA, please share!). In any case, thanks again, Suan for clarifying it again. Dan > > Hi Suan, > > VERY interesting. If I'd ever heard (or read) of manasikaaro defined as > manodvaaraavajjana, I didn't understand or remember it, even though I > must've read it in A.t.thasaalinii. Thanks a million for pointing this out. > > mike > > p.s. So what conditions yoniso manodvaaraavajjana? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "abhidhammika" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:49 AM > Subject: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading > commentaries and Abhidhamma > > "Mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" is not a > cetasika (a mental associate). It is what A.t.thasaalinii > called "javanapa.tipaadako". It is the mental step before the > arising of a javana citta. The more common term for it > is "manodvaaraavajjana". > > In a manovinnaa.naviithi, there arise bhavanga citta, > manodvaaraavajjana citta, and javana citta in that order. > > Thus, "mansikaaro" in the expression "yoniso manasikaaro" arises > between bhavanga citta and javana citta, and is equivalent to > manodvaaraavajjana citta. > > And, when manodvaaraavajjana citta is modified by "yoniso", the > following javana citta becomes a kusala javana citta. > 54133 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/30/05 5:31:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Comments interspersed... > > >Howard: > >Probabaly so in 99% of the cases! ;-) But, as a separate matter, > >mindfulness and careful investigation of apparent sensations is > possible during > >lucid dreaming. > > Having experienced lucid dreaming only on one (or two?) occasions, I > can't offer very much here--only that lucid dreaming can occur and it > is a peculiar sensation. > > >---------------------------------------- > > And does the Goenka method (or the > > >>Mahasi method) really lead to the arising of the sammasati? > >>[Perennial dsg discussion topic...] > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The Goenka method seemed to for me. Sloth and torpor, most > >specifically the tendency to fall asleep during meditation, are > prominent among the > >meditation hindrances I face. I find that the Goenka approach > creates a clarity for > >me that is very helpful in overcoming these hindrances. > >------------------------------------------ > > Yes. I agree that Goenka approach can be helpful for overcoming (or > more accurately, suppressing or avoiding) the hindrances; but don't > you agree that there is a clear distinction between cultivating a > suppression of the hindrances and the arising of insight? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, indeed! They aren't the same. ---------------------------------------- > > >>Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a > >>gradual unfolding? > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It was immediate and very clear. It was the most striking > >characteristic of the experience. (The second most striking > characteristic, unfortunately, > >was an abject terror! ;-) > >--------------------------------------- > > Was the fear immediate, with the "anatta experience", or was there a > discernable moment or two before the fear arose as a response? -------------------------------------------- Howard: There were a few discernable moments before the fear arose. -------------------------------------------- > > >>Dan: I think you are right that the "packet theory" involves > reification. I think you are wrong that the Abhidhamma and > commentaries propound a "packet theory". > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, perhaps so. But if so, I still seem to see that > somehow some > >Abhidhamma and commentarial enthusiasts seem to gravitate to such a > view. > >--------------------------------------- > > I'm sure that's true, but I don't think it's fruitful to speculate > about specific people or to hold friends in such judgment. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: It's just an observation, not a judgement and certainly not a condemnation. Far be it from me to "throw the first stone," as that old Hebrew said! ;-) -------------------------------------------- The > > Aranavibhanga sutta (MN 139) discusses alternative ways to talk about > Dhamma. Instead of saying things like, "All those engaged in the > pursuit of...sensual desires...are beset by suffering, vexation, > [etc.]"[MN139:7] and pointing the finger, better to limit the > discussion to Dhamma, stating, e.g. "The pursuit [of sense desire] is > a state beset by suffering, vexation, [etc]." [MN139:8]. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm all in favor of right speech, and though I'm far from perfect with it, I do try to be as harmless as possible. ---------------------------------------------- > > >====================== > >With metta and the wish for a peaceful and fruitful new year for > you, > >Howard > > Howard, you are a true gentleman. Best wishes to you and your family > in the new year. > > Dan > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54134 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:49pm Subject: Re: Listening Well matheesha333 Hi Tep, Nina, > "In Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.202, the 5 advantages of hearing the > Dhamma are enumerated. One of them is the attainment of Right > View. Since attaining Right View is synonymous with attaining > Ariyahood, it is clear that hearing Dhamma can make one an Ariyan > disciple. M: A qualification - hearing the dhamma from the right person (like a buddha or an arahanth) can make some people, who's faculties are mature, into an arya puggala. Whether the above factors come together today is debatable, but not dismissable. I'm also not convinced that having Right view means being an ariya. For example anyone could have mundane right view. Right view conditions, right ..-samma sankappa, the second step, or it conditions right effort (mahacattasarika sutta). The whole noble eightfold path has to be completed amongst other things to be considered a sotapanna. -A sotapanna obviously have right view, but I think lower stages can have right view (lesser degree) as well. This does not automatically lead to a sotapanna stage. As for the samma ditti sutta by sariputta -that seems to be about the right view of an arahath and little to do with the panna of a sotapanna. > "Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43 states that 2 conditions are needed for the > arising of Right View: Listening to the Dhamma, and Paying proper > attention or thorough consideration (yoniso manasikara) > > "This is the second confirmation that the Sotapanna stage is attained > by listening to the dhamma. M: Again, see my first answer. > "In Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8, the Buddha gave another > confirmation. He said that when one listens to the Dhamma attentively, > the 5 hindrances (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of > enlightenment (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to > become an Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper > attention (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas. M: Sorry i dont have a translation of the above sutta. The pali sounds like it is talking of the four foundations? Anyway, not everyone will have the same maturity of faculties. for someone who has developed the faculties on retreat a dhamma sermon is a very powerful thing, setting off that little change needed for magga to arise. We see that in the suttas of bikkhus becoming enlightened all the time, much more than the a person like suppiya the leper who was amenable to the buddha's 'graduated discourse', who's function seem to have been to give rise to certain mind states. Whether anyone can give such a sermon nowadays is a question. So I think even though it is possible that listening itself can give rise to vimutti as mentioned in the suttas, it must be on fertile soil for it to be practical. Otherwise I think it is impractical to expect someone to accidentally chance upon Anupubbiya kata of a Sammasambuddha (never mentioned as a skill of a disciple). The rest of the article was along the same lines. But it was good to read something original. I did a search on the topic as well. will post it seperately. metta Matheesha 54135 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > vangorko@x wrote: > > > > Hi James, > > op 29-12-2005 22:26 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > He taught it to those who were teachable. > > > > > > James: I find this to be an unhelpful and unnecessary > qualification. > > > (Could you imagine me saying as a teacher, "Well, I teach only > those > > > who are teachable.") The Buddha didn't turn away anyone- even > mass > > > murderers. > > ----- > > N: See my post to Tep. > > James: I read the post and I don't see a direct answer to my > question: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? I > know the answer: No; but you seem to be side-stepping this issue > once again (that infernal 'DSG Shuffle'). It's nice that you gave > the Pali for 'teachable', but that is beside the point. > Hello James, Nina, all, I'm not sure what the education system is like in Egypt - but in the english speaking world there is a beginning assessment and continuing assessment of each child from the time they are legally old enough to attend school. One of the purposes of this continuing assessment is to see if the child is capable of learning in an ordinary school setting, or whether they would be better placed in a special education unit, or even if they are able to benefit from any form of teaching at all. There are annual assessments to see if the child should be promoted to the next grade level. In addition, at several critical points in their school life, namely at the end of primary school, half way through secondary school, and the end of secondary school, in depth assessments and examinations are held. A poor result at these points usually means the child and his/her family are advised that they should consider some other alternative to continuing formal education. In some cases, they are told the child is excluded from progressing further. As well, repeated recalcitrant behaviour can result in the same advice being given and the young person being excluded from the company of those who can and will learn. I think the Kesi Sutta is an example of the Buddha demonstrating that, even in teaching the Dhamma, there may come a time with a particular person when it is necessary to consider that there is no further point in training, speaking to or admonishing that person:"Kesi, I train a tamable person [sometimes] with gentleness, [sometimes] with harshness, [sometimes] with both gentleness and harshness."In using gentleness, [I teach:] `Such is good bodily conduct. Such is the result of good bodily conduct. Such is good verbal conduct. Such is the result of good verbal conduct. Such is good mental conduct. Such is the result of good mental conduct. Such are the devas. Such are human beings.'"In using harshness, [I teach:] `Such is bodily misconduct. Such is the result of bodily misconduct. Such is verbal misconduct. Such is the result of verbal misconduct. Such is mental misconduct. Such is the result of mental misconduct. Such is hell. Such is the animal womb. Such the realm of the hungry shades.'"In using gentleness and harshness, [I teach:] `Such is good bodily conduct. Such is the result of good bodily conduct. Such is bodily misconduct. Such is the result of bodily misconduct. Such is good verbal conduct. Such is the result of good verbal conduct. Such is verbal misconduct. Such is the result of verbal misconduct. Such is good mental conduct. Such is the result of good mental conduct. Such is mental misconduct. Such is the result of mental misconduct. Such are the devas. Such are human beings. Such is hell. Such is the animal womb. Such the realm of the hungry shades.'""And if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, what do you do?""If a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi.""But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, `I kill him, Kesi.'""It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then the Tathagata does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine and Discipline, when the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing.""Yes, lord, wouldn't one be totally destroyed if the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing." http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Kesi/kesi.htmlmetta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54136 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: Listening Well matheesha333 Hi everyone, Here's a collection of suttas on listening to the true dhamma, with comments included. metta Matheesha --------------------------------------- "And how is a monk a listener? There is the case where, when the Dhamma & Discipline declared by the Tathagata is being taught, a monk pays attention, applies his whole mind, and lends ear to the Dhamma. This is how a monk is a listener. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an05-140.html M: Interesting sutta below: first time I saw kamma as an obstruction to the path being directly mentioned. Note desire to listen. Poor faculties of sadda and panna. Avaranata Sutta Obstructions "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six? "He is endowed with a (present) kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, a result-of-(past)-kamma obstruction; he lacks conviction, has no desire (to listen), and has dull discernment. "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an06-086.html ---------------------- Sussusa Sutta Listening Well Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six? "When the Doctrine & Discipline declared by the Tathagata is being taught, he does not listen well, does not give ear, does not apply his mind to gnosis, grabs hold of what is worthless, rejects what is worthwhile, and is not endowed with the patience to conform with the teaching. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an06-088.html ------------------- M: Serenity as a result of listening. Interesting: Anguttara Nikaya V.202 Dhammassavana Sutta Listening to the Dhamma Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene. "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-202.html -------------------- M: The famous bahiya episode: Then, addressing Bahiya on the way to his alms, the Buddha said in brief" Bahiya, thus must you train yourself: "In the seen there will be just the seen, in the heard there will be just the heard, in the imagined just the imagined, in the cognized just the cognized"(Ditthe ditthamattam sute sutamattam mute muta mattam vinnate vinnata mattam). After listening to this concise teaching of the Buddha attentively and vigilantly, Bahiya ,by not clinging ,not grasping to any, released his mind from defilements. http://www.metta.lk/english/bahiya.htm ------------------------ M: what the buddha does with his speach: 2. At the time the Blessed One was advising, inciting, gladdening and making light the hearts of the bhikkhus with a talk on extinction. The bhikkhus too were listening lending ears attentively to absorb the essential. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta- Nikaya/Samyutta1/10-Yakkha-Samyutta/01-Indakavaggo-e.htm understanding that comes from listening (sutamaya-pañña) http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/perfecti ons.html There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, contentment, seclusion, non-entanglement, arousing persistence, virtue, concentration, discernment, release, and the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful -- to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects." [AN X.69] M: This sutta suggests that listening is not enough. There has to be practice. This seems to suggest that there is more than sudden release through listening. "And how is a monk one with a sense of distinctions among individuals? There is the case where people are known to a monk in terms of two categories. "Of two people — one who wants to see noble ones and one who doesn't — the one who doesn't want to see noble ones is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does want to see noble ones is, for that reason, to be praised. "Of two people who want to see noble ones — one who wants to hear the true Dhamma and one who doesn't — the one who doesn't want to hear the true Dhamma is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does want to hear the true Dhamma is, for that reason, to be praised. "Of two people who want to hear the true Dhamma — one who listens with an attentive ear and one who listens without an attentive ear — the one who listens without an attentive ear is to be criticized for that reason, the one who listens with an attentive ear is, for that reason, to be praised. "Of two people who listen with an attentive ear — one who, having listened to the Dhamma, remembers it, and one who doesn't — the one who, having listened to the Dhamma, doesn't remember it is to be criticized for that reason, the one who, having listened to the Dhamma, does remember the Dhamma is, for that reason, to be praised. "Of two people who, having listened to the Dhamma, remember it — one who explores the meaning of the Dhamma he has remembered and one who doesn't — the one who doesn't explore the meaning of the Dhamma he has remembered is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does explore the meaning of the Dhamma he has remembered is, for that reason, to be praised. "Of two people who explore the meaning of the Dhamma they have remembered — one who practices the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning, and one who doesn't — the one who doesn't practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning, is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning is, for that reason, to be praised. "Of two people who practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning — one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others, and one who practices for his own benefit but not that of others — the one who practices for his own benefit but not that of others is to be criticized for that reason, the one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others is, for that reason, to be praised. "This is how people are known to a monk in terms of two categories. And this is how a monk is one with a sense of distinctions among individuals. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-064.html M: Again listening is not enough. Yonisomanasikara and practice is mentioned. Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. — SN LV.5 M: finally the graduated discourse (anupubbiya kata) Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khudda ka/udana/ud5-03.html 54137 From: connie Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:36pm Subject: Re: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nichiconn Hi James, James: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? Connie: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-111.html "If a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi." peace, connie 54138 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Re: Survey & 6th birthday gazita2002 hello Dan and other Dhamma friends, Lovely comments, Dan and I also, appreciate the hard work that went into this. More than that, I appreciate the content of the book. Congratulations to dsg for turning six. most of the time I am unaware of how much hard work and, I imagine, kusula cittas that it takes to produce many of the good books, tapes, MP3, talks, discussions etc that I have the good fortune (kamma) to be part of. Thank you, Dan, for giving me the opportunity to rejoice in others' good deeds, this includes posters to dsg as I have learnt lots from those people. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert, Sukin, etc., > I received my copy of "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" a few days ago. > It's beautiful! I very much appreciate the insightful content (thank- > you, Khun Sujin), the hard work that went into the translation (kudos, > Nina), the hard work that went into producing it (Mike? Sukin? Robert? > Bruce? Amara?), the thoughfulness of Sarah in sending me a copy (and to > Sukin for physically packaging and sending it). A marvellous effort. > Wonderful friends in Dhamma. I don't know much about how you all put > this together or who all was involved but great work! Thank-you. > > Sincerely, > > Dan > > P.S. It looks like it has a higher quality binding and will not fall > apart on the first reading--very much appreciated. > 54139 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:42pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 onco111 Hello Matheesha, Thank-you for the friendly note. Just a follow up on some of the questions I raised... >> D: In your mind, is there a distinction between conceptual >> meditation and real meditation? Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood? > > M: Sorry i havent been clear. What i meant by conceptual framework, > was the conceptual framework KS has about the dhamma and 'how it > works'. KS certainly has an unusual approach to teaching and discussing Dhamma. Putting that issue aside for the moment, is there a distinction between conceptual meditation and real meditation? Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood? > > > So, is there a method for getting from concept to paramattha? > > > M: Can you, using > all > > > the knowledge that you have in the suttas and commentaries come > up > > with a good way to go about this?! > > > > Yes, no, and yes-no. > > Yes: The Buddha very explicitly describes the path. > > No: Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never > > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." > > M: :), look at ven Ananda telling ven vangisa 'how he should purify > his mind'. Its staring at you in the face but you refuse to accept > it (rather than thinking there might be another explanation for > these verses -which you havent discovered yet-, you rather believe > that the buddha spoke in a funny stilted way and that everybody else > is wrong)! Amazing! > > 'Then venerable Va泥sa said this stanza to venerable ⮡nda: > My mind is burning with sensual greed, > I am a disciple of Gotama; Please tell me, how should I purify my > mind? > (⮡nda:) > Your mind is burning because of a distorted perception > Avoid that passionate sign, you have welcomed > Reflect determinations as foreign, unpleasant and lacking a self. > Extinguish greed altogether and do not be burnt again and again. > Develop loathsomeness and concentrate the mind in one point. > Develop mindfulness of the body for welfare and turn away with > disgust > Develop the mind without a sign and expel the tendency to measure. > Thus overcoming measuring live appeased. Exhortation, yes, clearly. Method? Purification ritual? No. > D:But listening can be done with > > right or wrong intent, and I think no one would argue that > listening > > with wrong intent gives rise to satipatthana. And yoniso > manasikara > > precedes the javana process and is not something that can be > conjured > > by following some method, rite, or ritual. In fact, belief in the > > efficacy of rite or ritual to conjure wisdom is one of the three > > fetters that is shattered at the first moment of supramundane path > > consciousness. > > M: Its Dejavu on this egroup. i had a long discussing recently with > nina on this. I dont know if i have the motivation to reply to this! > Maybe if we take it slowly. Right intention and wrong intention. > Samma cetana? micca cetana? could you clarify what you meant a bit > more? Excellent question, but instead of dissecting an entire story to answer, I'm content to just set aside that part of the discussion for now and focus on my original question, which was: >> How is a reading of, say, the satipatthana sutta as an instruction book any different from a rite or ritual? > M; If you did it properly you might find out! Because following it > gives rise to direct experiencing,panna and a lot more my friend. Oh my! Should I respond in like manner? ...I don't think so. In any case, you didn't address the question. > > > M: I dont know what methods you have encountered apart fron > goenka, > > > so i would say not to be too hasty to judge everyone on the > planet. > > > The buddha never made the differenece clear of these two, never > > used > > > the word pannati, except to imply it, so perhaps there is more > to > > > all the other methods than meets the eye/understanding? > > >> Dan: LOL! Where did that don't-judge-everyone-on-the-planet comment come from? > > M: Well you do know that only KS and her followers approach Buddhism quite like this, and the rest of the world differently dont you? > > Besided you havent answered my question ;) I'm sorry. I don't understand the question. Is it "perhaps there is more to all the other methods than meets the eye/understanding?" It sounded like a rhetorical question. My question is not about any particular method (Goenka, Mahasi, etc.) but about the very idea of "method" itself. What is the difference between method and ritual? > D:> My question is sincere. How does Buddha's teaching differ > > substantively from that of other spiritual guides other than on > his > > emphasis and description of panya/discernment/understanding? > > M: Oh you are right on this. It also differes in a very important > way that Ks is missing out. That is how to experience paramatta > which the buddha has clearly outlined, but KS clearly rejects - > which leaves all of her follows in a bit a difficult situation - > knowing so much theory but having little direct > experiencing/insight. Reading the suttas, I hear the Buddha frequently expounding on how paramattha is experienced, i.e., describing paramattha dhammas in myriad ways. I believe Tipitaka also discusses specific techniques for cultivation samatha (e.g., part II of Vism, but I haven't studied the samatha texts as carefully). What I don't see is any description of any technique or method for developing vipassana. I think there's a reason for that, viz., that the notion of doing a particular action to attain a particular result (i.e., rite, ritual, method, technique) is inherently tied up with sakayaditthi (which is why both the fetters of sakayaditthi and silabbataparamasa are shattered at the same time--they are EXTREMELY closely related). [And, please, are you certain that ALL KS followers know much theory but have little insight?] > D:> [As for 'methods' apart from Goenka, I presume you are referring > to > > meditation instruction. In addition to four 10-day Goenka retreats > > and a Goenka Satipattha retreat (8-days?), I worked one on one > with > > Jitamaro Bhikkhu in Thailand for two weeks in 1988 (Mahasi's > method) > > and one on one with Phramaha Sawai Nyanaviro for four weeks in > 1989 > > (Mahasi-style). This was supplemented with home practice for 1-2 > > hours per day for 10-12 years (with an occasional 8-10 hour day as > > well).] > > M: So basically your vipassana has been Mahasi. Your reservations > about meditation are understandable now. My teacher was a mahasi > dropout and developed a different system because he was > dissatisfied with mahasi! He teaches jhana and a vipassana method > which doesnt have labelling, just experiencing. I experienced the > first jhana two > weeks into starting meditation at home. I had my anatta experience > about and hour into my first vipassana session. I experienced all > arupa in 6 months. To say the least, it has been fruitful for me. I have no doubt that good teachers can prescribe methods to develop samatha, even to the jhanas. And you have given me no reason to doubt your samatha attainments and fruits. Wonderful! Regarding my Vipassana practice, please don't rush to judgment. And what on earth do you mean by "anatta experience"? > Then again we need to consider why Howard understood anatta by using goenka and but it didnt work for you. Again, you assume too much. Let's keep the discussion focussed on Dhamma and not on "me" and "Howard" and "you" and how great the one is and how lowly the others. > > We take it as given that insight at the level of > > sammasambuddha precludes even errors in language and pedagogy. > > M: Interesting. I didnt know that. I'm not wholly convinced of it, but in a discussion group dedicated to developing understanding of what Buddha taught, it would be counterproductive and off-topic to argue that he was wrong. > D: ..and away from defining, discussing, and comparing definitions > > from Tibetan traditions and Theravada traditions and Zen and away > > from speculations about states (like nibbana) that one has not > > experienced. > > M: Yes better not to speculate about what one doesnt know. But it > does bring up question about her ability to lead others atleast to a > state of sotapanna if she doesnt know how to get there herself. Again, let's keep the discussion focussed on Dhamma rather than on speculation about what someone else does or does not understand. Metta, Dan 54140 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, Comments interspersed... > > >>Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a > > >>gradual unfolding? > > > > > >---------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > It was immediate and very clear. It was the most striking > > >characteristic of the experience. (The second most striking > > characteristic, unfortunately, > > >was an abject terror! ;-) > > >--------------------------------------- > > > > Was the fear immediate, with the "anatta experience", or was there a > > discernable moment or two before the fear arose as a response? > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There were a few discernable moments before the fear arose. > -------------------------------------------- Wasn't there a clear distinction between the moments (cittas) before the anatta experience and the experience itself, and between the anatta experience and the arising of fear? > Howard: > I'm all in favor of right speech, and though I'm far from perfect with > it, I do try to be as harmless as possible. > ---------------------------------------------- You strike me as someone with strong tendencies to right speech. Anumodana. Dan 54141 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:08pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations gazita2002 Hello Christine, James, Nina and other dhamma friends, This is a great sutta, Chris and Kesi is one being for whom I felt compassion. Imagine hearing the Buddha himself and still not understanding. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > > Hi Nina, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > vangorko@x wrote: > > > > > > Hi James, > > > op 29-12-2005 22:26 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > He taught it to those who were teachable. > > > > > > > > James: I find this to be an unhelpful and unnecessary > > qualification. > > > > (Could you imagine me saying as a teacher, "Well, I teach only > > those > > > > who are teachable.") The Buddha didn't turn away anyone- even > > mass > > > > murderers. > > > ----- > > > N: See my post to Tep. > > > > James: I read the post and I don't see a direct answer to my > > question: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? I > > know the answer: No; but you seem to be side-stepping this issue > > once again (that infernal 'DSG Shuffle'). It's nice that you gave > > the Pali for 'teachable', but that is beside the point. > > > > Hello James, Nina, all, > > I'm not sure what the education system is like in Egypt - ....snip.... "If a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi.""But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, `I kill him, Kesi.'""It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then the Tathagata does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine and Discipline, when the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing.""Yes, lord, wouldn't one be totally destroyed if the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing." http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Kesi/kesi.htmlmetta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Azita: James, maybe only a small point here, but I read into this that the Buddha didnt turn Kesi away, but turned away himself as he regarded this person not worthy to speak to or admonish. even a Buddha cannot make everyone understand his teachings. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 54142 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:11pm Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I tried to answer as best as I could in my former post, and shall we let the > matter rest for a while? > I am not so much in the mood for debating, very busy with some projects, > Nina. I'm sorry you feel picked on. You can discuss or not discuss as you wish. Metta, James 54143 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:30pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Christine (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > > Hi Nina, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > vangorko@x wrote: > > > > > > Hi James, > > > op 29-12-2005 22:26 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > He taught it to those who were teachable. > > > > > > > > James: I find this to be an unhelpful and unnecessary > > qualification. > > > > (Could you imagine me saying as a teacher, "Well, I teach only > > those > > > > who are teachable.") The Buddha didn't turn away anyone- even > > mass > > > > murderers. > > > ----- > > > N: See my post to Tep. > > > > James: I read the post and I don't see a direct answer to my > > question: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? I > > know the answer: No; but you seem to be side-stepping this issue > > once again (that infernal 'DSG Shuffle'). It's nice that you gave > > the Pali for 'teachable', but that is beside the point. > > > > Hello James, Nina, all, > > I'm not sure what the education system is like in Egypt - but in the english speaking world there is a beginning assessment and continuing assessment of each child from the time they are legally old enough to attend school. James: I teach the American system in Egypt. What you describe in the following is not the American system (but we are getting off- topic). One of the purposes of this continuing assessment is to see if the child is capable of learning in an ordinary school setting, or whether they would be better placed in a special education unit, or even if they are able to benefit from any form of teaching at all. > > There are annual assessments to see if the child should be promoted to the next grade level. In addition, at several critical points in their school life, namely at the end of primary school, half way through secondary school, and the end of secondary school, in depth assessments and examinations are held. A poor result at these points usually means the child and his/her family are advised that they should consider some other alternative to continuing formal education. In some cases, they are told the child is excluded from progressing further. James: Interesting. This would never fly in America. America is now experimenting with standardized testing under the legislation of "No Child Left Behind" but the goal is to properly educate all children, not to exclude any child from an education. You Aussies are pretty tough!! ;-)) (but, again, this is off-topic) > > As well, repeated recalcitrant behaviour can result in the same advice being given and the young person being excluded from the company of those who can and will learn. > I think the Kesi Sutta is an example of the Buddha demonstrating that, even in teaching the Dhamma, there may come a time with a particular person when it is necessary to consider that there is no further point in training, speaking to or admonishing that person:"Kesi, I train a tamable person [sometimes] with gentleness, [sometimes] with harshness, [sometimes] with both gentleness and harshness."In using gentleness, [I teach:] `Such is good bodily conduct. Such is the result of good bodily conduct. Such is good verbal conduct. Such is the result of good verbal conduct. Such is good mental conduct. Such is the result of good mental conduct. Such are the devas. Such are human beings.'"In using harshness, [I teach:] `Such is bodily misconduct. Such is the result of bodily misconduct. Such is verbal misconduct. Such is the result of verbal misconduct. Such is mental misconduct. Such is the result of mental misconduct. Such is hell. Such is the animal womb. Such the realm of the hungry shades.'"In using gentleness and harshness, [I teach:] `Such is good bodily conduct. Such is the result of good bodily conduct. Such is bodily misconduct. Such is the result of bodily misconduct. Such is good verbal conduct. Such is the result of good verbal conduct. Such is verbal misconduct. Such is the result of verbal misconduct. Such is good mental conduct. Such is the result of good mental conduct. Such is mental misconduct. Such is the result of mental misconduct. Such are the devas. Such are human beings. Such is hell. Such is the animal womb. Such the realm of the hungry shades.'""And if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, what do you do?""If a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi.""But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, `I kill him, Kesi.'""It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then the Tathagata does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine and Discipline, when the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing.""Yes, lord, wouldn't one be totally destroyed if the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing." http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Library/Suttas/Kesi/kesi.htmlmetta, James: Yes, this is a very good sutta to mention. But notice that in my discussion with Nina I asked if the Buddha turned anyone away as unteachable due to accumulations (see the thread title). In other words, did the Buddha with his omniscience examine a potential monk/nun and declare that person unfit to join the sangha? This sutta explains that that didn't occur. The Buddha gave everyone a chance and only when a person couldn't be taught in anyway whatsoever, did the Buddha stop teaching him/her. That is different than giving the emphasis to accumulations which Nina gives. Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > Metta, James 54144 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:33pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Hi James, > James: Did the Buddha ever turn anyone away as unteachable?? > Connie: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04- 111.html > "If a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a > harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi." > peace, > connie > Thanks for the sutta quote. See my response to Christine. Metta, James 54145 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/30/05 6:55:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Comments interspersed... > > > > >>>>Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a > >>>>gradual unfolding? > >>> > >>>---------------------------------------- > >>>Howard: > >>> It was immediate and very clear. It was the most striking > >>>characteristic of the experience. (The second most striking > >>characteristic, unfortunately, > >>>was an abject terror! ;-) > >>>--------------------------------------- > >> > >>Was the fear immediate, with the "anatta experience", or was > there a > >>discernable moment or two before the fear arose as a response? > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > There were a few discernable moments before the fear arose. > >-------------------------------------------- > > Wasn't there a clear distinction between the moments (cittas) before > the anatta experience and the experience itself, and between the > anatta experience and the arising of fear? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: (I assume you are speaking of distinctions, and not just time intervals.) Yes, in both cases. The experience preceeding the "no-self" period was the usual dualistic one of a knower and the known, and the no-self state was radically and dramatically different. The distinction between the no-self state without fear and that state with fear was just that - the fear, but that fear was so intense as to set in motion the process of return to ordinary experience. (After the fact, I greatly regretted that my mind hadn't been prepared by jhanic cultivation, for who knows where the experience might have led had it been experienced by a mind that had been made truly peaceful and equanimous.) ------------------------------------------------- > > > > >Howard: > > I'm all in favor of right speech, and though I'm far from > perfect with > >it, I do try to be as harmless as possible. > >---------------------------------------------- > > You strike me as someone with strong tendencies to right speech. > Anumodana. > -------------------------------------- Howard: :-) Thanks! I think that this is so for most of us here. -------------------------------------- > > Dan > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54146 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:44pm Subject: Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Howard, A few final comments and we can take up a new topic next year (in a few hours). > > >>>>Was there a distinct moment when that became clear? Or was it a > > >>>>gradual unfolding? > > >>> > > >>>---------------------------------------- > > >>>Howard: > > >>> It was immediate and very clear. It was the most striking > > >>>characteristic of the experience. (The second most striking > > >>characteristic, unfortunately, > > >>>was an abject terror! ;-) > > >>>--------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>Was the fear immediate, with the "anatta experience", or was > > there a > > >>discernable moment or two before the fear arose as a response? > > > > > >-------------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > There were a few discernable moments before the fear arose. > > >-------------------------------------------- > > > > Wasn't there a clear distinction between the moments (cittas) before > > the anatta experience and the experience itself, and between the > > anatta experience and the arising of fear? > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > (I assume you are speaking of distinctions, and not just time > intervals.) Yes, in both cases. The experience preceeding the "no- self" period was the > usual dualistic one of a knower and the known, and the no-self state was > radically and dramatically different. The distinction between the no-self state > without fear and that state with fear was just that - the fear, but that fear > was so intense as to set in motion the process of return to ordinary experience. The distinctions between hearing, seeing, thinking, touching, etc. cittas are similarly sharp and clear. We are normally blind to that, but, occasionally, when conditions are just right, these distinctions may also be clearly discerned--and the sense of dukkha, anatta, anicca is again sharpened. Happy New Year! Dan 54147 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:53pm Subject: what is pa~n~naa lbidd2 Howard to Sarah: "The foregoing troubles me a bit, Sarah, on several accounts. For one thing, it seems to me that paramattha dhammas are known by many, if not all, of our mental operations, including, among others, vi~n~nana (most especially), sa~n~na (possibly taking second place), and vedana. Also, what exactly *is* pa~n~na? It is made to sound like a "God dhamma" that can be all, see all, and be everywhere. But to me, when our mental faculties function properly, unobscured by defilement, with ignorance out of the way if not uprooted, we *say* that they operate with wisdom. What is right understanding, for example, if not an unobscured, rightly operating recognition (sa~n~na)?" Hi Howard and Sarah, Here's my take: first, let's address what is sa~n~naa. Sa~n~naa is identity, recognition, similarity. It works along the lines of "this is like that". There cannot be an absolute or ultimate similarity or identity. Pa~n~naa, on the other hand, is the experience of the individual nature of a dhamma. I wouldn't say pa~n~naa, or any other dhamma, experiences another dhamma. All nama dhammas are experiences, and they are essentially reactions to an object, either conceptual or ultimately real. But in the course of ordinary experience we conflate these experiences into attributes of the object. A powerful hardness sensation arises "with" (so to speak) an unpleasant feeling and we read these two as being one, or as though the hardness sensation _is_ painful, or pain is a particular kind of experience of hardness. When there is pa~n~naa there is less conflation. We experience pain as pain, hardness as hardness, and understand or see a conditional relation between them. This has the effect of extinguishing desire. I think possibly when we really understand that this is the way things are all the time, whether we experience them this way or not, this is the understanding that leads to the experience of nibbana. I think pa~n~naa is twofold: the experience of individual nature and the understanding or seeing of conditional relations. Larry 54148 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:58pm Subject: Vism.XIV,212 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 212. Of these, firstly, 'order of arising' is not applicable here because the aggregates do not arise in the order in which they are successively dealt with, as is the case with 'the fetus in the first stage', etc., nor is 'order of abandoning' applicable, because the profitable and indeterminate are not to be abandoned; nor is 'order of practice', because what is unprofitable is not to be practiced; nor is 'order of plane', because feeling, etc., are included in all four planes. ********************* 212. tesu idha uppattikkamo taava na yujjati, kalalaadiina.m viya khandhaana.m pubbaapariyavavatthaanena anuppattito. na pahaanakkamo, kusalaabyaakataana.m appahaatabbato. napa.tipattikkamo, akusalaana.m appa.tipajjaniiyato. na bhuumikkamo, vedanaadiina.m catubhuumipariyaapannattaa. desanaakkamo pana yujjati. 54149 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/30/05 9:44:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > >Howard: > > (I assume you are speaking of distinctions, and not just > time > >intervals.) Yes, in both cases. The experience preceeding the "no- > self" period was the > >usual dualistic one of a knower and the known, and the no-self > state was > >radically and dramatically different. The distinction between the > no-self state > >without fear and that state with fear was just that - the fear, but > that fear > >was so intense as to set in motion the process of return to > ordinary experience. > > The distinctions between hearing, seeing, thinking, touching, etc. > cittas are similarly sharp and clear. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, they sure are - at least I find them so. Actually, I'd find it hard to imagine people not seeing strong disctinctions there. -------------------------------------- We are normally blind to that, > but, occasionally, when conditions are > just right, these distinctions > may also be clearly discerned--and the sense of dukkha, anatta, > anicca is again sharpened. --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't really see how we are normally blind to those distinctions. (Oh! Unless you mean that we may think that they occur simultaneously! I no longer seem to sense that, but it did indeed seem that way to me at one time.) ---------------------------------------- > > Happy New Year! ---------------------------------------- Howard: :-) You, too! ---------------------------------------- > > Dan > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54150 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:33pm Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations rjkjp1 Dear James and Christine, Another sutta is when teh Buddha refelcts on how few can understand: ""This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion. What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see. As the Blessed One reflected thus, his mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma. Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in the Blessed One's awareness, thought: "The world is lost! The world is destroyed! The mind of the Tathagata, the arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One inclines to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma!" "Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma." ... Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.""" SN VI.1 What are these differences in beings if not because of differing accumulations over many lives? He then thought who could understand, who was most suitable to hear the teaching: "Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Alara Kalama is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Alara Kalama suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it"" RobertK 54151 From: connie Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nichiconn Dear James, If Phil really is convinced that everything we experience is the result of kamma, he is mistaken. We agree on that much. But the argument I was given goes that this body is the result of old kamma and our experience depends on that, so... I shrug... ok, within limits, or in context, but not totally. James: the Buddha didn't turn away anyone who wished to learn the dhamma. Connie: If anyone really wanted to learn the dhamma, there would be accumulations for that wanting & no, that one wouldn't be turned away, but the Buddha would already know how much that one was capable of learning. Some people just are not to be tamed in this life-time (and in some planes of existence there are no conditions to even hear the dhamma). I think there were people Buddha just didn't bother to approach or even attempt to teach in the first place, so the Kesi conversation probably doesn't even apply to them, but he would survey the world and go to those who were ripe. James: did the Buddha with his omniscience examine a potential monk/nun and declare that person unfit to join the sangha? Connie: Even less than omniscience is called for... remember the probationary period even during his lifetime where the other monks could decide to reject someone. And yes, there are a lot of people ruled out who can't even get to probationary status... misfits for one reason or another. Whether some of them are teachable or not would be another question. But people who are teachable today, I think they would all be only 'moderately clever' and need a lot of teaching, not just a single explanation or just the name of a sutta or something, but to let the conditions for understanding accumulate thru repeated hearing, considering, etc... the gradual teaching... from all kinds of angles. James: The Buddha didn't put this emphasis on accumulations which you place and I don't see the need for it. Connie: It's one of those angles that's useful to some. If it's of no use to you, so be it. Unteachable due to accumulations... Matheesha quoted from Obstructions (an06-086): <> And ok, not everything happens because of kamma, but even though it's one of the imponderables, it figures a lot in the teachings. What is "accumulations"? Or, what accumulates? One answer, from the Expositor: << In the triplet of 'leading to accumulation,' 'accumulation' means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are 'those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth.' It is a name for co-intoxicant moral or immoral states. Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation,' which is another word for 'accumulation,' is called 'dispersion'. 'Leading to dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, 'leading to accumulation' are 'those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.' 'Leading to dispersion' are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason. The third term is spoken by way of rejecting both. >> peace, connie 54152 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:50pm Subject: Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Dear Howard, >> Dan: The distinctions between hearing, seeing, thinking, touching, >> etc. cittas are similarly sharp and clear. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, they sure are - at least I find them so. Actually, I'd find it > hard to imagine people not seeing strong disctinctions there. > -------------------------------------- In theory, no. Experientially, yes--the actual perception (and not just a rational or theoretical conception) that hearing, seeing, thinking, etc. are distinct and do not occur simultaneously does not always arise. One characteristic of such a moment of perception (or citta) is panya (a cetasika). Some people might describe this as "panya knows." I agree that that formulation is a mite difficult to swallow (and have had some tumultuous go-rounds with Nina and others about such language), but, really, it doesn't pay to cling fast to "my way" of saying things or to conclude that the person spouting such (seemingly) awkward formulations is doing the reification that the language suggests. I'm sure that sometimes the reification is there and sometimes not, but linguistic conventions are not at all a reliable indicator of reification. That being said, the language and expression issues are crucial to consider and discuss because such discussion can sometimes shed light on misperceptions. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't really see how we are normally blind to those distinctions. > (Oh! Unless you mean that we may think that they occur simultaneously! I no longer seem to sense that, but it did indeed seem that way to me at one time.) > ---------------------------------------- So, how can you break out of the "simultaneous" distortion without seeing sharp, clear distinctions between cittas that arise in very quick succession? It seems to me that blurred cittas and the simultaneity view are virtual synonyms. [And don't get scared off by this packet-theory-sounding language!] With metta, Dan 54153 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:35am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 348- Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[r] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch20 - Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa) continued] Questions i Why are sloth and torpor mental sickness? ii Why is it said that sloth is opposition to energy? iii Can there be sloth and torpor when there is conceit? iv Can they arise when there is wrong view? v What is the meaning of “prompted”, sasaòkhårika? vi Why did the Buddha warn the monks not to be attached to the ease of bed or to food? vii The anågåmí is not attached to the ease of bed or to food. Can he still have sloth and torpor? viii What is the best cure for sloth and torpor? ix Which kinds of feeling can accompany sloth and torpor? x Vicikicchå is doubt about realities. Which are the realities one may have doubts about? xi Who has eradicated doubt? ***** Sloth(thiina), Torpor(middha) and Doubt(vicikicchaa)[finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 54154 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:45am Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Connie (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear James, > > If Phil really is convinced that everything we experience is the result of > kamma, he is mistaken. We agree on that much. But the argument I was > given goes that this body is the result of old kamma and our experience > depends on that, so... I shrug... ok, within limits, or in context, but > not totally. > > James: the Buddha didn't turn away anyone who wished to learn the dhamma. > > Connie: If anyone really wanted to learn the dhamma, there would be > accumulations for that wanting & no, that one wouldn't be turned away, but > the Buddha would already know how much that one was capable of learning. > Some people just are not to be tamed in this life-time (and in some planes > of existence there are no conditions to even hear the dhamma). I think > there were people Buddha just didn't bother to approach or even attempt to > teach in the first place, so the Kesi conversation probably doesn't even > apply to them, but he would survey the world and go to those who were ripe. > > James: did the Buddha with his omniscience examine a potential monk/nun > and declare that person unfit to join the sangha? > > Connie: Even less than omniscience is called for... remember the > probationary period even during his lifetime where the other monks could > decide to reject someone. And yes, there are a lot of people ruled out > who can't even get to probationary status... misfits for one reason or > another. Whether some of them are teachable or not would be another > question. But people who are teachable today, I think they would all be > only 'moderately clever' and need a lot of teaching, not just a single > explanation or just the name of a sutta or something, but to let the > conditions for understanding accumulate thru repeated hearing, > considering, etc... the gradual teaching... from all kinds of angles. > > James: The Buddha didn't put this emphasis on accumulations which you > place and I don't see the need for it. > > Connie: It's one of those angles that's useful to some. If it's of no > use to you, so be it. > > Unteachable due to accumulations... Matheesha quoted from Obstructions > (an06-086): < alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities > even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six? > He is endowed with a (present) kamma obstruction, a defilement > obstruction, a result-of-(past)-kamma obstruction; he lacks conviction, > has no desire (to listen), and has dull discernment. >> > > And ok, not everything happens because of kamma, but even though it's one > of the imponderables, it figures a lot in the teachings. > > What is "accumulations"? Or, what accumulates? One answer, from the > Expositor: << In the triplet of 'leading to accumulation,' 'accumulation' > means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name > for the processes of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are > 'those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom > they arise, to that round of rebirth.' It is a name for co- intoxicant > moral or immoral states. Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation,' which is > another word for 'accumulation,' is called 'dispersion'. 'Leading to > dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his > object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, 'leading to accumulation' > are 'those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths > in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by > layer, in a wall.' 'Leading to dispersion' are those states which go about > destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks > as they are laid by the mason. The third term is spoken by way of > rejecting both. >> > > peace, > connie > You make some good points but I'm afraid that this discussion is starting to steer away from its original. I would not argue the fact that there are people who cannot and do not want to learn the dhamma (my step-mother is a good example! ;-)). The context of my discussion with Nina was concerning those people who express a desire to learn the dhamma; furthermore, we were discussing if such individuals were to practice/be taught the cultivation of bhavana. In other words, we were discussing the practice of meditation for those interested in learning the dhamma. I proposed that anyone sincerely interested in learning the dhamma (either as a faith or wisdom follower) has the necessary qualification to develop bhavana. Nina, however, proposed that only those "teachable" due to accumulations, within this target group, could develop bhavana. To prove my point I had to simplify my questions to Nina, to make them hit home, and unfortunately that resulted in the discussion veering away from its original intent. I made my propositions and questions so simple and direct they gave Nina no wiggle room- so she decided to drop the thread (as I interpret it). But others joining the thread have misinterpreted the intent of my questions and statements which evolved from my discussion with Nina. So, yes I know that there are people who are drawn to the dhamma and there are those who are not. This has to do with a great number of factors which I couldn't begin to fathom (and even those involved don't completely know). However, I believe that once a person makes the decision to follow the Buddha's path, all aspects of that path can be available. If you listen to KS or Nina, you are defeated before you begin! Let me re-emphasize that: IF YOU LISTEN TO KS OR NINA, YOU ARE DEFEATED BEFORE YOU BEGIN!! If you listen to the Buddha, however, it is possible to follow the complete path of the ancients. Metta, James 54155 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > S: When we use 'panna' to communicate like now, it is a label or concept > that we use. But it's a label representing a reality, a paramattha dhamma. > This relates to the discussion I'm having with Charles D on the difference > between 'tree' and 'anger'. We use labels for both, but 'tree' is only > ever a concept, an idea, like 'worm'. Anger on the other hand, like panna, > has a characteristic which can be directly known. > > What is such a paramattha dhamma known by? Only by panna. This is the > characteristic of panna. I see a gradation in this labelling. degree in buddhism-->panna-->just sankhara arising and passing away. Labels are our additions, to describe the meanings that we experience through sanna. Yes, panna cetasika will have its own characteristics. On a more complex level, so will a tree. If you want to get away from all that we will have to just call them sankata dhammas. this might be relavent: 'It is said wise, for what is it said wise? Knows, therefore it is said wise. Knows what? Knows this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is the cessation of unpleasantness and this is the path to the cessation of unpleasantness. Knows these, therefore it is said wise. It is said consciousness. Friend, what is consciousness?: Knows, therefore conscious. Knows what? Knows this is pleasant, this is unpleasant and knows this is neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Knows therefore it is said conscious. Friend, this knowledge and this consciousness, are they associated or dissociated? Is there a method to differentiate them and show them apart? What is known is consciousness and consciousness is knowledge. Therefore these things are associated and not dissociated and it is not possible to differentiate them and show them apart. Friend, of these things that are associated and not dissociated, what is their difference? Friend, of these things associated and not dissociated knowledge should be developed and consciousness should be accurately known. That is their difference. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/043-mahavedalla-sutta-e1.htm > I see that you're having some discussion with others on `The Path of > Discrimination', so I just opened this text (rather than an Abhidhamma > commentary:-)). M: Very considerate of you! I dont have anything much to comment on the quote though :) > ..... > > > Perhaps the most worrying problem (at least for me) was her seeming > > difficulty/inexpertise in dealing with questions of nibbana. > .... > S: More on nibbana to come in the next audio sections. M: Yes, i suspect there would be more. > I think the point is that all that can ever be known (yes, by panna:-)) > are the namas and rupas appearing now. Nibbana is not apparent and so all > we can do is to speculate about it now. It won't help us realize it at > all. Such realization will only come about by highly developed > understanding and detachment from the presently conditioned dhammas > appearing. M: Yes > I was also interested in your comments to Phil (#53434) about `knowing > where to draw the line' with regards to `learning'. Of course the only > real `learning' or `study' is with regard to dhammas experienced at this > moment (and I think that was your point). I don't think we have to set any > rules about how much or little book study we undertake. I find that when > there is confidence that panna really can know any presently appearing > dhamma, I really don't have to think about what activity I'm engaged in or > should be engaged in. The understanding and awareness follow the dhammas > naturally and easily....and there's no idea of drawing any line. > .... M: I think in your model of 'practice' there is no need to draw a line. In mine a lot will be seen through direct experiencing - so theres no need to learn great amounts. I think what i was trying to get at the limits of direct experiencing actually. We only need to see arising and passing away. A deeper experiencing is potentially possible, but how useful it is debatable. N:> While I'm touching on some of your past posts, I was also touched by your > `reaching out' to James and also by James' trust in us all to share his > experiences in the light of the Dhamma. I also appreciated your account of > the lady (#52968) and your reflections on treatment options. I used to > work in a psychiatric centre a long time ago in London and it wasn't easy > at all. As you say `sometimes you just have to let go'. Metta, karuna and > upekkha.....especially upekkha are sometimes all that is possible. I'm > sure you just do your best with the limited resources available. We're not > `world managers' and it also depends so much on others' inclinations and > circumstances as to what is possible at all. M: Indeed. > You mention `less anger, less sadness' and somewhere about reducing dukkha > in this life (I may have the words wrong). You also say you use various > methods to `peel away the onion', lessen suffering and negative patterns. > I think this is all fine, but finer still is any understanding of present > dhammas as anatta. For understanding to really become a bala (power), I > think it has to understand and be detached from even the grossest kinds of > negative patterns when they arise. > M: True. Active reduction of defilements dont play a part in your model of practice. It is integral in mine, as is panna. This has given rise to a few comments on the uselesness of it! But i believe it is very difficult for panna alone to do the job of attaining magga on its own. > This touches a little on the 3 kinds of dukkha which Howard and Joop > picked up from the discussion. We all know about the first kind, `dukkha > dukkha' or the unpleasant bodily and mental feelings which arise. No one > wants them. To a certain degree, we also know about `viparinama dukkha' or > the dukkha of change as we follow our pleasant feelings from one object to > the next, like when we try out the different dishes at a lunch > spread/buffet. But the Buddha's teaching is about Dukkha in the ultimate > sense, the rising and passing away of all conditioned dhammas now as we > speak. This is the dukkha that has to be penetrated and can only be done > so by understanding these namas and rupas more and more precisely when > they appear through 6 doorways.... M: Agreed Just because we find some techniques to > avoid unpleasant experiences doesn't mean we're any closer at all to > understanding dhammas as anatta, as anicca, as dukkha. M: Sarah, the technqies serve two purposes. One is to reduce suffering. The other is to give rise to qualities of the mind which help us to have direct experiencing. So they do help. 'Two weeks after venerable Vacchagotta receivd the higher ordination, he approached the Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and said to the Blessed One. `Venerable sir, I have gained the knowledge of a trainer. May the Blessed One instruct me further,' `Then Vaccha, you should develop two things further. Develop calm and insight. Vaccha, when calm and insight is developed, it conduces to experiencing the various elements. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/073-maha-vacchagotta-e1.htm The final verse you > quoted from SN1:18 was beautiful too. (Actually, sometime I'd like you to > repost this letter/post, just fine-tuning the paragraph I questioned:-). M: I might as well have written a letter and chucked it into a river! Any idea which post it was? > > "Ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities...' > > S: This is why ignorance is the only real hindrance to the development of > satipatthana. M: I dont agree. The gradual training is as follows: (Acquisition of faith)-->(Morality)--> (Sense-Control)-->(Moderation in eating)--> (Vigilance)--> (Mindfulness and clear consciousness) (Overcoming of the five hindrances) "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He chooses a remote lodging in the forest... or on a heap of straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the meal, he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him, he, by getting rid of coveting for the world, dwells with a mind devoid of coveting, he purifies the mind of coveting. By getting rid of the taint of ill-will, he dwells benevolent in mind, compassionate for the welfare of all creatures and beings, he purifies the mind of the taint of ill-will. By getting rid of sloth and torpor, he dwells devoid of sloth and torpor; perceiving the light, mindful, clearly conscious, he purifies the mind of sloth and torpor. By getting rid of restlessness and worry, he dwells calmly the mind subjectively tranquilized, he purifies the mind of restlessness and worry. By getting rid of doubt, he dwells doubt-crossed, unperplexed as to the states that are skillful, he purifies the mind of doubt. -->(The four applications of mindfulness) "As, Aggivessana, an elephant tamer, driving a great post into the ground, ties a forest elephant to it by his neck so as to subdue his forest ways, so as to subdue his forest aspirations, and so as to subdue his distress, his fretting and fever for the forest, so as to make him pleased with villages and accustom him to human ways -- even so, Aggivessana, these four applications of mindfulness are ties of the mind so as to subdue the ways of householders and to subdue the aspirations of householders and to subdue the distress, the fretting and fever of householders; they are for leading to the right path, for realizing nibbana. "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with mental states.' -->(Jhana) "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides in the second meditation[4] which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. By the fading out of rapture, he dwells with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and experiences in his person that joy of which the ariyans say: 'Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful,' and he enters and abides in the third meditation. By getting rid of joy, by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of his former pleasures and sorrows, he enters and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy, and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness. -->(The three knowledges, te-vijja) http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhi ma/mn125.html M: When there is ignorance, there is lack of hiri and ottappa, > wrong views arise and the wrong path is followed. > > `Clear knowing (S: pa~n~naa) is the leader in the attainment of skillful > qualities...' > M: Well the sutta says Vijja. I can see how right view is very important. But right view 'only' condition samma sankhappa and samma vayama (mahacattasrika). They other conditions which give rise to release need to be developed in their own right. > S: Back to panna as leader. When there is panna, there is hiri and ottappa > and the right path follows. This is the only way that unwholesome states > can ever be eradicated completely, not by following methods, techniques or > avoiding dukkha dukkha in the long-run. M: I think avoiding dukkha is an integral part of the path. The buddha says as we go higher and higher in the path there is less and less dukkha. Also see the sutta above. I dont think the 'right path follows' automatically. Its simply not possible (unless you give different definitions to things like samadhi). Why should the buddha ask anyone to ordain, or go to forest dwellings? Why put anyone through all that trouble? Agreed, such things are not for everyone, but if you were serious about the path, that is what you did. > Of course, there are few that can appreciate this and we're not always > willing to hear it even now. Meanwhile, we help others, as you obviously > do, with kindness and compassion according to circumstances. > > In appreciation of your kind deeds and kind posts here as well. M: :), appreciate the effort you are putting into do dhamma daana Sarah. take care Matheesha 54156 From: "Leo" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:18am Subject: Two Suttas that can be additional instructions to Sati leoaive Hi I found two suttas that might be used in a way of additional instructions to Satipatthana or Steadfast Mindfulness Suttas, so I decided to share that with you. The following two suttas: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Avijja Sutta Ignorance Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." "What is that one thing?" "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes as something separate. "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as displeasue, or as neither-pleasure-nor- displeasue — that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the ear as something separate. He sees sounds as something separate. He sees ear-consciousness as something separate. He sees ear-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on ear-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as displeasue, or as neither-pleasure-nor- displeasue — that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the nose as something separate. He sees smell as something separate. He sees nose-consciousness as something separate. He sees nose-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on nose-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as displeasue, or as neither-pleasure-nor- displeasue — that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the tongue as something separate. He sees taste as something separate. He sees tongue-consciousness as something separate. He sees tongue-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on tongue-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as displeasue, or as neither-pleasure-nor- displeasue — that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the body as something separate. He sees touching as something separate. He sees body-consciousness as something separate. He sees body-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on body-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as displeasue, or as neither-pleasure-nor- displeasue — that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the intellect as something separate. He sees ideas as something separate. He sees intellect-consciousness as something separate. He sees intellect-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as displeasue, or as neither-pleasure-nor- displeasue — that too he sees as something separate. "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dhamma-Viharin Sutta One Who Dwells in the Dhamma Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "'One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the Dhamma': thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who dwells in the Dhamma?" "Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma. "Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn't spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma. "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." 54157 From: "pavelburetranslator" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:38am Subject: I need help with locating sutta passages pavelburetra... We are translating the book "What buddhists believe" by ven. K. Sri Dhammananda into Russian. The translation process is now complete, but unfortunately, the author didn't specify the exact sutta number for the major part of the passages quoted. However, I managed to find most of them, but not all. We contacted the author, but now he is seriously ill and cannot answer any longer. This book can be read online here: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/main.htm (3rd edition) 4th edition can be downloaded from here: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/whatbelieve.pdf These are the passages we couldn't locate: part 8, Chapter "The Buddhist Attitude to Animal Life" One day the Buddha saw a man preparing to make an animal sacrifice. On being asked why he was going to kill innocent animals, the man replied that it was because it would please the gods. The Buddha then offered Himself as the sacrifice, saying that if the life of an animal would please the gods then the life of a human being, more valuable, should please the gods even more. Needless to say, the man was so moved by the Buddha's practical gesture that he gave up the animal sacrifice and accepted the Buddha's Teaching. part 9, Chapter "Why we take Refuge in the Buddha" The Buddha once said, 'If anyone wishes to see me, he should look at My Teachings and practise them.' part 11, Chapter "Buddhism and politics" In a Jataka story, it is mentioned that a ruler who punishes innocent people and does not punish the culprit is not suitable to rule a country. The king always improves himself and carefully examines his own conduct in deeds, words and thoughts, trying to discover and listen to public opinion as to whether or not he had been guilty of any faults and mistakes in ruling the kingdom. If it is found that he rules unrighteously, the public will complain that they are ruined by the wicked ruler with unjust treatment, punishment, taxation, or other oppressions including corruption of any kind, and they will react against him in one way or another. On the contrary, if he rules righteously they will bless him: 'Long live His Majesty.' part 5, Chapter "Is there an Eternal Soul?" He once said, 'Only through ignorance and delusion do human beings indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existing entities. Their heart still clings to Self. They are anxious about heaven and they seek the pleasure of Self in heaven. Thus they cannot see the bliss of righteousness and the immortality of truth.' part 13, Chapter "Human Beings and Religion" The Buddha said: `One must not accept my teachings from reverence, but first try them as gold is tried by fire.' 54158 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi, > > How do you know the author was not a Buddhist trying to justify his or her > beliefs via ... > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta Hallo Charles We cannot know, but I have not found anything specific remarks of him in this direction. I'm glad you react to my message, but what is your question? Do you agree with my statement that this is another proof that the anatta-theory is correct? Metta Joop > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop > Sent: Sunday, 25 December, 2005 16:22 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Anatta and neuroscience > > Hallo all > > Not that it surprised me but more and more neuroscience comes to the > same conclusion as the Dhamma: the 'self' is an illusion > Here some Amazon-information about the (what I heard) best > neurophilosophical book about it > > Metta > > Joop > > > Being No One : The Self-Model Theory of Subjectivity > by Thomas Metzinger > > Paperback: 711 pages > Publisher: The MIT Press (September 1, 2004) > ISBN: 0262633086 > > Book Description > According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the > world: <...> > 54159 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Dan, Suan*, Mike & all, --- "Dan D." wrote: > Thanks for the detailed explanation of yoniso manasikaaro. It is of > course citta (manodvaaraavajjana) and not cetasika. .... S: I had some discussions with Nina and others on this topic before and I know this is a common view (i.e that yoniso manasikara is manodvaravajana citta). It never made sense to me that wise attention could refer to a single rootles inoperative citta and with respect, I don't believe this is the full picture. The following is from a 'Musing' I wrote a few months ago after some detailed discussions of passages from suttas, the Abhidhamma and commentaries with A.Sujin which you'll be able to listen to in due course. (Also see 'Manasikara, Yoniso manasikara' in U.P.) ***** S: "With regard to guarding or restraint(samvara), we also had more discussions about yoniso manasikara (wise attention) and in particular to the aspect of samvara (restraint). When the javana cittas are sobhana, we can refer to the whole vithi (process) in which they arise as being sobhana. There is samvara or ‘guarding’ or yoniso manasikara (wise attention) at such a time. Naturally, when there are no wholesome cetasikas, there cannot be yoniso manasikara. If we are referring to the mano-dvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness), the citta itself is kiriya (inoperative), without any hetu (root), so we cannot really say it is sobhana or yoniso or samvara. However, because the following javana cittas are sobhana, the whole process including this citta, can be referred to as sobhana or yoniso or samvara at such times for convenience. It is however wrong to refer to just the mano-dvaravajjana citta itself as yoniso manasikara. The important point, however, is that it’s not just a matter of understanding ‘the word’ or the definitions, but rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. Otherwise we can easily get hung up on definitions, I find. In this regard, we cannot pinpoint a particular citta in a series. We can’t directly know the moment to moment cittas arising because we’re simply not so wise as in the Buddha’s time. In the same way, with limited wisdom, we cannot pinpoint particular cetasikas (mental factors) such as manasikara (attention), sati or panna at anytime because they arise together and panna is not precise enough to single out particular states. Otherwise, it’s like trying to identify the ingredients of the curry as referred to in the texts. Satipatthana has to develop in order to precisely know characteristics when they appear." .... D:> Did you happen to hear Sarah's discussion about pariyatti? She claims that listening/reading/discussing is pariyatti only when the attention falls to the present presence (or absense) of the states under discussion; when there is no reflection on the current states, there is no pariyatti. .... S: I think this was an example of wise reflection - for example, understanding the present doubt or confusion rather than being lost in stories about technical details with unwholesome cittas. There can also of course be pariyatti when there is wise reflection (yes, with kusala cittas only)about dhammas not being experienced at this moment. For example, there can be wise reflection about kamma or even about nibbana, BUT so often such reflection is with fear or attachment. It just depends and this is where sacca parami (perfection of truthfulness) comes in too. The teachings do all come back to what is real and knowable at this moment, to the conditioned dhammas which can be understood now and pariyatti refers to the wisdom and wise attention accompanying any such reflections of the teachings, regardless of whether there is any direct experience of particular aspects or not. For another example, when we reflect on the cetasikas arising together or the series of cittas which we read about, we're only considering in theory, but this can be wisely or unwisely, with pariyatti or without. And, of course, it is the pariyatti, the wise considering, which leads to patipatti. Not the book knowledge. Metta, Sarah *Suan, if you'd like us to send you a copy of K.Sujin's recently published 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', translated by Nina, pls send your address off-list to Sukin (or to me to f/w to him). I think you'd appreciate it. ======= 54160 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/31/05 1:52:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > So, how can you break out of the "simultaneous" distortion without > seeing sharp, clear distinctions between cittas that arise in very > quick succession? It seems to me that blurred cittas and the > simultaneity view are virtual synonyms. [And don't get scared off by > this packet-theory-sounding language!] > =================== No, they're not the same, not in reality. Reality is strange! When hardness, for example, is present, no sight or sound or taste or odor or mind-object is present. But that doesn't imply sharp boundaries, at least not experientially for me, and I don't presume that sharp boundaries are all that is possible. Now, we tend to feel that it couldn't be otherwise than a sharp-boundary situation. Our thoughts suggest to us that it is either that way or else there must be more than one object-content at a time at some point. But reality has a way of not matching up with our preconceptions. Picture a series of waves as follows (I hope the pic shows up): At the trough of a wave, our common-sense understanding fostered by our usual macroscopic-level awareness goes out the window! There is no single point that is a last point of one object, no point that is the first point of the next, no point at which there are both, and no point at which there is neither. At every point, there is but one object to be found. Our mind *wants* a demarcation point! But where is it? Mathematicians will point out with regard to the real line that if there is a last point for one condition, there *cannot* be a first point for the next, and if there is a first point for the next, then there cannot be a last point for the current condition. Of course, the alternative mathematical model would be the completely discrete one of an infinite sequence of single isolated points, like the integers: ... -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ... .In that scheme, though, there is no arising or ceasing, but only discrete point-occurrences, each of no duration at all - no time at all! This seems to be the model presumed by many of the folks on DSG. But in fact that is at variance with the commentarial perspective of a single citta involving an arising stage followed by a stasis stage followed by a declining stage, which, as I see it, accords more with the wave model! I don't find myself wed to any perspective, including the wave model. But the discrete perspective seems to me to be most likely to lead to reification, and I am thus most wary of it. With metta, Howard P.S. I'm copying you directly on this post, Dan, in case Yahoo doesn't include my wave diagram. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54161 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:17am Subject: Re: I need help with locating sutta passages matheesha333 Hello, Let me first commend you on your translation effort. It is indeed wonderful to see the Buddha's word being made accessible in this manner. I found an extract detailing on of the verses: > part 9, Chapter "Why we take Refuge in the Buddha" > The Buddha once said, 'If anyone wishes to see me, he should look at My Teachings and practise them.' > 2. From Vedic times, it has been considered auspicious in India to gaze on a holy person or heavenly being, and to be gazed on by such a being as well. Here the fact that heavenly beings themselves want to gaze on the Buddha indicates the high regard they have for him (this is also the motive for their Great Meeting in DN 20); the phrase later in this paragraph, "the One with Eyes," indicates that they also regarded his gaze as highly auspicious for them. Later passages in this discourse indicate that human beings have similar feelings about the auspiciousness of the Buddha's gaze and the Buddha as an object of one's own gaze. A great deal of the later history of Buddhism in India -- including devotional practice, Buddhology, meditation practice, and even the architecture of monasteries -- grew out of the continuing desire to have a vision of the Buddha and to be gazed on by the Buddha, even after his Parinibbana. It is sometimes assumed, based on a passage in SN XXII.87, that the Pali Canon is uniformly negative toward this aspect of Buddhist tradition. There, Ven. Vakkali, who is ill, states that "For a long time have I wanted to come & see the Blessed One, but I haven't had the bodily strength to do so," and the Buddha comforts him, "Enough, Vakkali. Why do you want to see this filthy body? Whoever sees the Dhamma sees me; whoever sees me sees the Dhamma." It should be noted, however, that the Buddha's treatment of this topic is sensitive to the context. In SN XXII.87, he is talking to a monk who (1) is too sick to come see the Buddha on his own strength; and (2) is on the verge of arahantship. Here in DN 16, however, the Buddha dismisses Ven. Upavana so as to honor the desire of the devas who want to see him in his last hour; and he sends Ven. ânanda into Kusinara to inform the lay people there so that they too will be able to see him in his last hour. His motive here may be similar to that given for encouraging the building of a burial mound dedicated to him: seeing him will help human & heavenly beings brighten their minds, and that will be for their long-term welfare & happiness. Thus the attitudes expressed on this topic in the Pali Canon, when taken in their entirety, are more complex than is generally recognized. [Go back] http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/16- mahaparinibbana-e3-part.htm metta Matheesha 54162 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Listening Well sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, Tep & all, --- matheesha wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Here's a collection of suttas on listening to the true dhamma, with > comments included. .... S: Many thanks to you both for all the great sutta quotes - I need to read them more carefully tomorrow. You may like to look at some of the sutta quotes included in posts in U.P. under: 1) Considering, Listening....Pariyatti 2) Listening (also 'Suta Maya Panna....', and 'Pariyatti....' Math & Tep, many thanks for Tep's detailed posts which I will respond to next year eventually:-). Many thanks for all the effort and fine consideration. Also, to Math for your recent one back to me. Just quickly, your good post on hiri and ottappa I was referring to (with the one para I suggested you might consider again) was #53620. A very Happy New Year, Healthy and Wise too, to all...Reflecting on the Dhamma is a pretty good way to start it, I think. And there can be awareness now, even as we speak and celebrate or not. Oops, past bed-time for me....:-). Metta, Sarah ========== 54163 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Listening Well. Happy New Year to All of Us ! buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Today is the last day of 2005. I wish you all the happiest & most prosperous year 2006. Thank you, Sarah for the nice email below. >Sarah: > > Math & Tep, many thanks for Tep's detailed posts which I will respond to next year eventually:-). Many thanks for all the effort and fine consideration. Also, to Math for your recent one back to me. > > Just quickly, your good post on hiri and ottappa I was referring to (with the one para I suggested you might consider again) was #53620. > > A very Happy New Year, Healthy and Wise too, to all...Reflecting on the Dhamma is a pretty good way to start it, I think. And there can be > awareness now, even as we speak and celebrate or not. Oops, past bed-time for me....:-). > May all beings always live happily, free from animosity. Best wishes, Tep ======== 54164 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:15am Subject: Re: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nichiconn Dear James, My usual apologies for lacking social skills; thinking that conversation/discovery can lead itself in any number of directions rather than being limited to one person's agenda/outline. Or maybe I just fight dirty. ;) Do you mean bhaavanaa when you say bhavana? peace, connie 54165 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Listening Well. Happy New Year to All of Us ! matheesha333 Happy New Year to everyone! Hope everyone is safe and warm, and with your loved ones! Hope the new year will be good to one and all! take care Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, all - > > Today is the last day of 2005. I wish you all the happiest & most > prosperous year 2006. > > Thank you, Sarah for the nice email below. > > >Sarah: > > > > Math & Tep, many thanks for Tep's detailed posts which I will > respond to next year eventually:-). Many thanks for all the effort and > fine consideration. Also, to Math for your recent one back to me. > > > > Just quickly, your good post on hiri and ottappa I was referring to > (with the one para I suggested you might consider again) was #53620. > > > > A very Happy New Year, Healthy and Wise too, to all...Reflecting on > the Dhamma is a pretty good way to start it, I think. And there can be > > awareness now, even as we speak and celebrate or not. Oops, past > bed-time for me....:-). > > > > May all beings always live happily, free from animosity. > > > Best wishes, > > > Tep > > ======== > 54166 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:24am Subject: Re: Listening Well buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and all) - You wisely observed that there must be supporting conditions for "right hearing" that would result in the attainment of right view in a Sotapanna. -- hearing from a buddha or an arahant ( Tep: So we are hopeless to become sotapanna through listening in this life because the next Buddha has not yet arrrived and we do not know where an arahant may be found? {:->) ) -- the listener's faculties are mature (Tep: How mature?) >M: So I think even though it is possible that listening itself can give rise to vimutti as mentioned in the suttas, it must be on fertile soil for it to be practical. ............... Tep: Math, you are not convinced that having a right view "means being an ariya. True, there are several definitions of "right view". MN 117 defines two levels (Bhikkhu Bodhi calls them mundane and supramundane right views). Arahant Sariputta Thera in MN9 describes several ways (based on the 11 links of the Dependent Originations ) a monk might become "one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". In MN 2 the right view of a Sotapanna was clearly defined by the Buddha based on yoniso-manisikara (wise/appropriate attention) as follows. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." Tep: The above is the same as dhammanupassana of the ariya-sacca in Maha-satipatthana Sutta. I am happily contented with this right view because it assures that the lower three fetters are cut off permanently. But a question is : how does one appropriately attends to the four noble truths such that the three fetters can be abandoned for good? Can someone, who understands satipatthana well enough, explain to me how? I remember Dan D. and I tried to answer the "how to" once, but our discussion did not reach an "appropriate" or "wise" conclusion. I think an answer to the first question above is seen in your quoted Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8. >M: when one listens to the Dhamma attentively, the 5 hindrances (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to become an Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper attention (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas. Tep: It seems to me that listening attentively is eqivalent to yoniso manasikara of the four noble truth as stated in MN 2. But listening to whom (no arahant or a Buddha is available)? Is reading of that sutta (SN 46.4.8) sufficient? .......... >M: I did a search on the topic as well. will post it seperately. Tep: I am glad you did. Let me discuss it on the next post. With appreciation of your effort, Tep your friend ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Nina, > > > "In Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.202, the 5 advantages of hearing the > > Dhamma are enumerated. One of them is the attainment of Right > > View. Since attaining Right View is synonymous with attaining > > Ariyahood, it is clear that hearing Dhamma can make one an Ariyan > > disciple. > > M: A qualification - hearing the dhamma from the right person (like > a buddha or an arahanth) can make some people, who's faculties are > mature, into an arya puggala. > (snipped) 54167 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:58am Subject: A Bit More Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi again, Dan - Just one more thing, that may help you in understanding how I'm able to so easily adopt the apparently strange perspective I have on this. I've been a mathematician since I became a math major in undergraduate school at the University of Pennsylvania circa 1959. During all those years, I've studied all sorts of rather esoteric mathematics. In the process, much that is counter-intuitive has become clear to me. Among the most basic of concepts is the so-called real line, which, among other things, is used to model time, and is fundamental to our physics. What is counter-intuitive about it is that for any position on that line, there is no immediately preceding point and no immediate successor point! If one contemplates that mathematical concept hard and long, especially if one works with it and reasons with regard to it, it can become eminently plausible that a condition may hold now that didn't hold at some earlier point in time and will again not hold at some future point, and yet there is no findable beginning point or ending point for the condition. Now, how does that apply to our discussion? Imagine a sight as object followed by a sound as object. Assume that there is a specific point in time at which that the sound begins. Then, since there is no immediately preceding point in time, there can be no specifiable point at which the sight ended! Conversely, if the sight ended at some specific point, then there could be no beginning point for the sound! It seems to me, on the basis both of reason and experience (somewhat), that there are before and after with regard to events and conditions, with anicca being a reality [Nothing remains!], that at any point in time there is what there is, and that there are becomings and dissolutions even within the same mindstate, but sharp beginnings and endings are nowhere to be found. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54168 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:45am Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear James, > > My usual apologies for lacking social skills; thinking that > conversation/discovery can lead itself in any number of directions rather > than being limited to one person's agenda/outline. Or maybe I just fight > dirty. ;) James: No need to apologize. Conversation and discovery can and usually does lead in quite a number of directions- usually all helpful. I was just explaining the context of my original posts, not chastising you for your post. For those following this thread, your post has made the discussion richer and more worthwhile. Members have, as a consequence, thought about things they wouldn't think about without the catalyst of your post. Thought and discovery is not usually linear, it is often wholistic. > > Do you mean bhaavanaa when you say bhavana? James: ;-)) Here we are getting into my weak area: Pali! I looked into this group's links and found the link of "Glossary a Pali Terms" and here is what I found (which does correspond to my intended meaning): bhavana [bhaavanaa] mental development, comprising the development of calm and the development of insight. > > peace, > connie > Metta, James 54169 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:02am Subject: Happy New Year!!!!! [dsg] Re: Listening Well buddhatrue Hi Sarah and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > A very Happy New Year, Healthy and Wise too, to all...Reflecting on the > Dhamma is a pretty good way to start it, I think. And there can be > awareness now, even as we speak and celebrate or not. James: Sadhu!! May the New Year bring a greater awareness and appreciation of the dhamma for us all!! There is no better way of bring in the New Year than reflecting on the dhamma- what was achieved and what has yet to be achieved. Happy New Year to All!!! Oops, past bed-time > for me....:-). James: Sweet Dreams to you, Sarah. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== > Metta, James 54170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination nilovg Hi Tep, op 29-12-2005 00:48 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: quotes:>> N: So, it does not matter that seeing has fallen away, very rapidly after > that there is again seeing. Or visible object, it impinges on eyesense > again and again. > > Tep: It matters because of two facts : > 1. what we see is not the ultimate reality -- because we only see its > delayed time-frame-images (like seeing a movie not the real life it self). ------ N:Because of this arising 'again and again', the characteristic appears and can be object of awareness. --------- T: 2. According to your posts I read in the past, mental images are > concepts (pannatta) that cannot be used as objects for satipatthana. > This note you are writing sounds like a new theory to me. Am I > mistaken? > .............. N: There are different meanings of nimitta, and what I describe is different from samatha. Also different from the 'outward appearance and details of things', like a house or a tree. Since visible object impinges again and again, its characteristic can be known: a dhamma that is experienced through eyesense. No need to think about it. No worry whether it is this one or that one, we cannot find out, we do not have the Buddha's wisdom. It appears now, colour appears now, sound appears now. That solves (for me!) the question whether it is concept or reality. >>> T: (e.g. seeing anatta in the rupa & nama -- although I think what you > think you "see" may not be the ultimate reality). > ------- >> N: Not yet, when time comes. Citta and cetasikas performing their > functions. -------- > Tep: On what basis do you base that belief? ------- N: Even on the level of intellectual understanding we can notice that we cannot cause the arising or non-arising of specific dhammas, thus, we can have intellectual understanding of anatta. Lodewijk found that we memories arise of what we do not want to remember. We cannot direct dhammas at will, like sati. Meanwhile, sobhana cetasikas can accumulate, more intellectual understanding, remembrance of the Dhamma, saddhaa, confidence, viriya, sati arising with listening and considering, etc. They perform their functions. -------- >T: >>>> N: We have to investigate the citta at that moment. > -------- > >>> Tep: If the term "investigate" you are using here is in the >> conventional sense, then "to investigate the citta at that moment" >> would mean to me as to reflect or observe the thought at that moment. > ----- N: have more understanding and begin to be aware, although awareness is still coarse. quote: N: there is also citta that sees, or hears, citta with anger or with > generotiy, so many kinds, all arising because of their own conditions, > not "us' who want them or do not want them that way. Investigating: > considering and being aware of the dhamma that appears through one > of the six doors. > > Tep: Thank you for the definition of "investigating". So the 'citta' that > arises at a door is 'the dhamma' to be considered and awared of, > according to this definition. ------ N: The dhamma that presents itself, nama or rupa, and is experienced through one of the six doors.. A citta arises in a process, and all of these experience an object through a doorway. Door is the means through which citta experiences an object. It is confusing to say: citta arises at a door. The object that is experienced by citta *through* a doorway can be the object of awareness, awareness that accompanies another citta arising shortly afterwards. Nama (citta and cetasikas) is experienced only through the mind-door, in a mind-door process, and rupa is experienced through a sense-door and immediately after that through the mind-door. ------- T: But as you admitted in your note earlier, the > citta is too fast and independent of "us" (whatever that word means). So > you only experience an image not the real thing.... In that case you don't need any special > mental qualities like jhana that supports the various vipassana-nana > like nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and udayabbaya-nana. Am I > mistaken here? ------- N: Jhana is developed in tranquil meditation, and not everybody who develops vipassana develops jhana as well. The stages of insight are to be developed in daily life, no need to go apart. Also the jhana practitioner has to emerge from jhana, has to return to a life with sense impressions. ------- T: Or, you may say, "Tep, all the higher-level vipassana-nana will arise > by themselves when time comes"? > ................... N: By the appropriate conditions. One essential condition: do not cling to them, have no expectations. Lobha hinders so much. It prevents one from understanding anatta. Always trying to make things arise, not seeing dhammas as elements devoid of self. Nina. 54171 From: nina Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:59am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 212 nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 212 Intro: After having explained the different ways in which Œas to order¹, kamato, can be used, the Visuddhimagga explains in this section, why only order in the sense of order of teaching, desanaakkamo, is to be applied to the five khandhas. ------- Text Vis.: Of these, firstly, 'order of arising' is not applicable here because the aggregates do not arise in the order in which they are successively dealt with, as is the case with 'the fetus in the first stage', etc., nor is 'order of abandoning' applicable, because the profitable and indeterminate are not to be abandoned; ------- N: What is akusala is to be abandoned. Indeterminate, avyaakata, are: ruupa, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Of kusala and indeterminate it cannot be said that they should be abandoned. -------- Text Vis.: nor is 'order of practice', because what is unprofitable is not to be practiced; nor is 'order of plane', because feeling, etc., are included in all four planes. ----- N: There is no order of practice with regard to the five khandhas, because cittas and cetasikas which are akusala are also included in the four naama-khandhas. There is no order of planes of citta, because the khandha of feeling includes feelings that are of the sensuous plane, ruupaavacara, aruupaavacara and lokuttara. And it is the same for the other naama-khandhas. **** NIna. 54172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sati and focussing nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 25-12-2005 16:21 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > But to get back to my question: how much does one have to > understand/experience to understand tilakka - I think one at least > needs to see arising and passing away of dhammas. > > I think this is a very significant nana/insight because it has been > mention in the diigajanu (vyaggapajja) sutta as a definition for > panna, which is a sermon to a lay person and seeing impermanance > (accepting impermamance in everything -on faith or wisdom) has been > mentioned as something which will mean atleast at the point of > death, a person will become a sotapanna. ------ N: and the sutta continues (about paññaa): Thus, he realizes the insight of an ariyan. But this does not come about without the right conditions. Seeing the arising and falling away of dhammas is the first principal inmsight and several have to follow before the three lakkhana are seen very clearly. It is a development. ------ M:This might be the easiest > (possibly the most unsure) way of becoming a sotapanna! ----- N: Not easy but the sure way. It needs courage, endeavour, perseverance. ------ M:It also > possibly involves keeping precepts very well as well. This is an > area which seems to have received little attention, but is very > important to us as buddhsts. ------ N: Yes, the sutta speaks about the accomplishment of siila. This grows along with paññaa as it develops. All the enlightenment factors develop together, also the four right efforts which are connected with siila. The accomplishment of charity: because if one is selfish and stingy, how can one give up the clinging to the view of self. It is all connected. -------- In another post you were speaking about kamma that can be an obstruction to attaining enlightenment. Yes, that is what I meant when I wrote to you about rebirth: Kamma may cause rebirth as a human with two hetus, without paññaa. -------- Another point from your former post: N:Before we can > blink our eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone, from head to > toe, there is nothing remaining. > M: This is a figurative way of talking. A bit like trying to `catch up' with arammana. It is like water from a tap. The drops keep coming. Each one does pass away. ------ N: This is not figurative at all, but perhaps hard to imagine. We do not notice that really each rupa of this body arises and then disappears. Because it is replaced by kamma, citta, heat and nutrition. These four factors keep on producing the rupas of the body throughout our life. I heard some people say that impermanence is not in this way, but how then? The Buddha said time and again that the five khandhas are impermanent.That the eye, seeing, visible object etc. are impermanent. *** Nina. 54173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Sarah, You put this very well, I think. Before I found it difficult to understand, but after the explanations about nimitta and our incapability to pinpoint realities, I find it much clearer. Also the point about not getting hung up on definitions, this means much more to me than before. Nina. op 31-12-2005 15:59 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > The important point, however, is that it’s not just a matter of > understanding ‘the word’ or the definitions, but rather the meaning of > what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. Otherwise > we can easily get hung up on definitions, I find. > > In this regard, we cannot pinpoint a particular citta in a series. We > can’t directly know the moment to moment cittas arising because we’re > simply not so wise as in the Buddha’s time. In the same way, with limited > wisdom, we cannot pinpoint > particular cetasikas (mental factors) such as manasikara (attention), sati > or panna at anytime because they arise together and panna is not precise > enough to single out particular states. Otherwise, it’s like trying to > identify the ingredients of the curry as referred to in the texts. > Satipatthana has to develop in order to precisely know characteristics > when they appear." 54174 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:18pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations Confusing Extensions ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Connie and James (and Nina) - I am familiar with accumulation(ayuhana) of kamma. According to Nyanatiloka, "accumulation is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhara; s. paticca-samuppada), being the bases of future rebirth". However, when the term 'accumulation' is said to be a condition for teachability/learnability and for development of understanding, or affecting even unteachability, I feel it is a little too much extension beyond the original definition of karma-formations. >Connie: -- If anyone really wanted to learn the dhamma, there would be accumulations for that wanting ... -- ...let the conditions for understanding accumulate thru repeated hearing, considering, etc... the gradual teaching... from all kinds of angles. Tep: Your quoted Expositor's descriptions of accumulation are well within the karma-formations that are the bases of rebirth: -- 'accumulation' means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes of rebirth and decease. -- Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation,' which is another word for 'accumulation,' is called 'dispersion'. -- Or, 'leading to accumulation' are 'those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.' Tep: But I do not see how one can extend the Expositor's descriptions to 'learning', 'teachability', and 'understanding through repeated hearing'. So, please advise me how I may become less confused. Sincerely, Tep ======== > > Connie: If anyone really wanted to learn the dhamma, there would be > accumulations for that wanting & no, that one wouldn't be turned away, but the Buddha would already know how much that one was capable of learning. > Some people just are not to be tamed in this life-time (and in some planes of existence there are no conditions to even hear the dhamma). I think there were people Buddha just didn't bother to approach or even attempt to teach in the first place, so the Kesi conversation probably doesn't even apply to them, but he would survey the world and go to those who were ripe. > > James: did the Buddha with his omniscience examine a potential monk/nun and declare that person unfit to join the sangha? > > Connie: Even less than omniscience is called for... remember the > probationary period even during his lifetime where the other monks could decide to reject someone. And yes, there are a lot of people ruled out who can't even get to probationary status... misfits for one reason or another. Whether some of them are teachable or not would be another question. But people who are teachable today, I think they would all be only 'moderately clever' and need a lot of teaching, not just a single explanation or just the name of a sutta or something, but to let the conditions for understanding accumulate thru repeated hearing, considering, etc... the gradual teaching... from all kinds of angles. > 54175 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:47pm Subject: [dsg] Yoniso Manasikaaro Is Not A Cetasika --- Re: Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma onco111 Hi Sarah, Interesting comments on yoniso manasikara... > .... > S: I had some discussions with Nina and others on this topic before and I > know this is a common view (i.e that yoniso manasikara is manodvaravajana > citta). It never made sense to me that wise attention could refer to a > single rootles inoperative citta and with respect, I don't believe this is > the full picture. It never is... > When the javana cittas are sobhana, we can refer to the whole vithi > (process) in which they arise as being sobhana. There is samvara or > ?guarding? or yoniso manasikara (wise attention) at such a time. > Naturally, when there are no wholesome cetasikas, there cannot be yoniso > manasikara. Sarah, I can't perceive the distinction between the different cittas in a vitthi, so for me the question of which parts are labelled 'yoniso manasikara' is speculation and theorizing rather than description. I have a sense that 'yoniso' would only make sense for javana cittas because it's fruit may sometimes be satipatthana, and isn't fruit-bearing one of the marks that distinguishes javana from kriya? On the other hand, I wouldn't go so far as to say, that "naturally" no wholesome cetasikas [implies no] yoniso manasikara. It would also make sense to me that all the javana cittas in a vitthi are colored either 'yoniso' or 'ayoniso'. For manodvaravajana to be yoniso (or ayoniso), the coloring of the vitthi would take be determined by the manner of the adverting to the object. But wouldn't this imply hetu, so not manodvaravajjana? Ah, yes, that's just what you say in the next paragraph... > If we are referring to the mano-dvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting > consciousness), the citta itself is kiriya (inoperative), without any hetu > (root), so we cannot really say it is sobhana or yoniso or samvara. > > However, because the following javana cittas are sobhana, the whole > process including this citta, can be referred to as sobhana or yoniso or > samvara at such times for convenience. It is however wrong to refer to > just the mano-dvaravajjana citta itself as yoniso manasikara. If you agree that the yoniso can refer to the whole process-- including the manodvaravajjana citta--I'm not convinced that the semantic hairsplitting over whether the yoniso manasikara is the whole vitthi or just the adverting makes any difference whatsoever. The question of whether the manodvaravajjana should be included in (or equated with) the yoniso manasikara is an interesting theoretical question, but does it have any real significance? Not for me. I can't distinguish the individual cittas in a series, so the interest is purely theoretical. > The important point, however, is that it?s not just a matter of > understanding ?the word? or the definitions, but rather the meaning of > what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. Otherwise > we can easily get hung up on definitions, I find. Agreed. I'm fine with yoniso manasikara as either manodvaravajjana or as the entire vitthi. If I could clearly distinguish the cittas in the process, I would know. In the meantime, no need to speculate. [Or is there a need to speculate? Don't you say that you have to have the theory exactly right before you can observe reality?] > In this regard, we cannot pinpoint a particular citta in a series. We > can?t directly know the moment to moment cittas arising because we? re > simply not so wise as in the Buddha?s time.In the same way, with limited > wisdom, we cannot pinpoint > particular cetasikas (mental factors) such as manasikara (attention), sati > or panna at anytime because they arise together and panna is not precise > enough to single out particular states. Otherwise, it?s like trying to > identify the ingredients of the curry as referred to in the texts. > Satipatthana has to develop in order to precisely know characteristics > when they appear." Sarah, this paragraph (above) sounds pretty muddled to me. I'll just leave it alone... > .... > D:> Did you happen to hear Sarah's discussion about pariyatti? She claims > that listening/reading/discussing is pariyatti only when the attention > falls to the present presence (or absense) of the states under discussion; > when there is no reflection on the current states, there is no pariyatti. > .... > S: I think this was an example of wise reflection - for example, > understanding the present doubt or confusion rather than being lost in > stories about technical details with unwholesome cittas. > > There can also of course be pariyatti when there is wise reflection (yes, > with kusala cittas only)about dhammas not being experienced at this > moment. For example, there can be wise reflection about kamma or even > about nibbana, BUT so often such reflection is with fear or attachment. It > just depends and this is where sacca parami (perfection of truthfulness) > comes in too. I do like the idea of thinking of pariyatti as a yoniso manasikara, as kusala because it gives us pause to consider the manner in which we read, listen, and discuss. > The teachings do all come back to what is real and knowable at this > moment, to the conditioned dhammas which can be understood now and > pariyatti refers to the wisdom and wise attention accompanying any such > reflections of the teachings, regardless of whether there is any direct > experience of particular aspects or not. For another example, when we > reflect on the cetasikas arising together or the series of cittas which we > read about, we're only considering in theory, but this can be wisely or > unwisely, with pariyatti or without. And, of course, it is the pariyatti, > the wise considering, which leads to patipatti. Not the book knowledge. Do you see any difference between descriptive reflection and theoretical speculation? Great comments (as always). Metta, Dan 54176 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 I don't think we are so far apart, Howard. Let me explain. I keep bringing up "sharp, clear distinctions are observable," and you echo "sharp, clear boundaries=packet theory." I am only saying that consciousness takes one object at a time, e.g., moments of seeing and hearing are distinct, and the distinction is sharp and clear. When the awareness is keen, a sharp, clear distinction is discerned, and the illusion of overlap between, say, seeing and hearing is shattered. Is there a rapid fading out of one object and a subsequent fade in of the next? Or is there an instantaneous cutoff of one and then the instantaneous arising of another? Or is there a series of 17 cittas with past bhavanga, vibrational bhavanga, arrest bhavanga, adverting, sense-door consciousness, receiving, investigating, determining, 7 javanas, registration, and a return to bhavanga? It would all be theoretical speculation for me. What I do know is that, on occasion, there can be an awareness of sharp, clear distinctions between many cittas arising and passing away in a very short time span, and that the arising and passing away can be observed. As for the topology of mindspace, who knows!? Not me. I suspect that the distinctions between cittas become clearer and clearer as awareness becomes more and more developed, and that the description of those distinctions at finer and finer scales start to LOOK like "packet theory" when our own clarity of vision does not match that of those (like the commentators and the Buddha) whose descriptions we read. The description of vithi definitely sounds to me like a bogus packet theory, but I have seen enough to have some confidence that the expounders of Abhidhamma and the commentaries were clear enough in their discernment so that their discussion of vithi is descriptive rather than theoretical and that my tendency to read it as a packet theory is due to my own lack of vision rather than their indulgence in idle speculation. > At the trough of a wave, our common-sense understanding fostered by > our usual macroscopic-level awareness goes out the window! There is no single > point that is a last point of one object, no point that is the first point of > the next, no point at which there are both, and no point at which there is > neither. At every point, there is but one object to be found. > Our mind *wants* a demarcation point! But where is it? No demarcation point. No packet theory. No theory at all. Just experience. > Mathematicians > will point out with regard to the real line that if there is a last point for > one condition, there *cannot* be a first point for the next, and if there is a > first point for the next, then there cannot be a last point for the current > condition. Unless, of course, there is non-empty intersection between sets. Or there is an open bhanvanga set between two closed vithi sets: [vithi] (bhavanga)[vithi](bhavanga)[vithi]... > Of course, the alternative mathematical model would be the completely > discrete one of an infinite sequence of single isolated points, like the > integers: ... -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ... Or, perhaps, the rational line, which is discontinuous at every point but has the same density property of the real line that you mentioned above. > In that scheme, though, there is no > arising or ceasing, but only discrete point-occurrences, each of no duration at > all - no time at all! This seems to be the model presumed by many of the folks > on DSG. I don't rightly know what theories (if any) "those dsg folks" are presuming, or even if "they" are presuming any theory at all. Abhidhamma and the commentaries describe reality as experienced by people with a much more highly developed discernment than I have. The purpose of the writings is to dispel theory and illusion and to help guide the reader to clear vision of reality as it is rather than as he or she imagines it to be. > But in fact that is at variance with the commentarial perspective of a > single citta involving an arising stage followed by a stasis stage followed by > a declining stage, which, as I see it, accords more with the wave model! > I don't find myself wed to any perspective, including the wave model. > But the discrete perspective seems to me to be most likely to lead to > reification, and I am thus most wary of it. By all means, discuss the words and meanings, but, ultimately, all the words, models, and theories are false. The discrimination of states, though, is not--and this is the focus of much of Abhidhamma and commentaries and a perennial topic of discussion in dsg. With metta, Dan 54177 From: "Dan D." Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:48pm Subject: A Bit More Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings onco111 Hi Howard, I'm a big fan of mathematics, too, even though I abandoned pure math after getting my MS and ended up as a research statistician because I craved a more concrete connection with reality. > that apply to our discussion? Imagine a sight as object followed by a sound as > object. Assume that there is a specific point in time at which that the sound > begins. Then, since there is no immediately preceding point in time, there can > be no specifiable point at which the sight ended! Conversely, if the sight > ended at some specific point, then there could be no beginning point for the > sound! The arising and falling away of cittas can be observed sharply and clearly. It is fast. The idea of drawing a boundary between them doesn't make any sense to me; however, to describe the characteristics of a citta and its arising and passing away seems to be a natural thing to do. I don't find it at all helpful to construct elaborate theories to justify or bolster observation. No wave theory. No packet theory. No theories at all. Just observation of reality as it is. > It seems to me, on the basis both of reason and experience (somewhat), > that there are before and after with regard to events and conditions, with > anicca being a reality [Nothing remains!], that at any point in time there is > what there is, and that there are becomings and dissolutions even within the > same mindstate, but sharp beginnings and endings are nowhere to be found. Sharp distinctions between nama and rupa, between cittas, clarity in discerning the arising and passing away can be objects of awareness. There's no need to develop a wave theory or assume others are expounding a packet theory. Metta, Dan 54178 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:54pm Subject: The Atomized, Digitized, Re: The Path Of Discrimination buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I appreciate your effort to make things clearer with sincerity that show in the following dialogues: > >Tep: It matters because of two facts : > 1. what we see is not the ultimate reality -- because we only see its delayed time-frame-images (like seeing a movie not the real life it self). ------ >N:Because of this arising 'again and again', the characteristic appears and can be object of awareness. .............. > > Tep: Thank you for the definition of "investigating". So the 'citta' that arises at a door is 'the dhamma' to be considered and awared of, according to this definition. ------ >N: The dhamma that presents itself, nama or rupa, and is experienced through one of the six doors.. A citta arises in a process, and all of these experience an object through a doorway. Door is the means through which citta experiences an object. It is confusing to say: citta arises at a door. The object that is experienced by citta *through* a doorway can be the object of awareness, awareness that accompanies another citta arising shortly afterwards. Nama (citta and cetasikas) is experienced only through the mind-door, in a mind-door process, and rupa is experienced through a sense-door and immediately after that through the mind-door. ..................... > >T: Or, you may say, "Tep, all the higher-level vipassana-nana will arise by themselves when time comes"? > ................... >N: By the appropriate conditions. One essential condition: do not cling to them, have no expectations. Lobha hinders so much. It prevents one from understanding anatta. Always trying to make things arise, not seeing dhammas as elements devoid of self. Tep: Your explanations above are reasonable enough. I will think about them furthermore. As for now, I wholeheartedly thank you for the time, patience and calm that you have consistently shown in all your posts. :-) With true appreciation, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > T: 2. According to your posts I read in the past, mental images are > > concepts (pannatta) that cannot be used as objects for satipatthana. > > This note you are writing sounds like a new theory to me. Am I > > mistaken? > > .............. > N: There are different meanings of nimitta, and what I describe is different from samatha. Also different from the 'outward appearance and details of things', like a house or a tree. > Since visible object impinges again and again, its characteristic can be known: a dhamma that is experienced through eyesense. No need to think about it. No worry whether it is this one or that one, we cannot find out, we do not have the Buddha's wisdom. > > It appears now, colour appears now, sound appears now. That solves (for me!) the question whether it is concept or reality. > > >>> T: (e.g. seeing anatta in the rupa & nama -- although I think what you think you "see" may not be the ultimate reality). > > ------- > >> N: Not yet, when time comes. Citta and cetasikas performing their > > functions. > -------- (snipped) 54179 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understandings upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/31/05 4:49:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > I don't think we are so far apart, Howard. Let me explain. ===================== Yes, I agree. I particularly agree with your statement near the end in which you say that "... ultimately, all the words, models, and theories are false." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54180 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:09am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] Re: On "discrete quanta" and conventional understand... upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 12/31/05 4:50:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, onco111@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I'm a big fan of mathematics, too, even though I abandoned pure math > after getting my MS and ended up as a research statistician because I > craved a more concrete connection with reality. > > >that apply to our discussion? Imagine a sight as object followed by > a sound as > >object. Assume that there is a specific point in time at which that > the sound > >begins. Then, since there is no immediately preceding point in > time, there can > >be no specifiable point at which the sight ended! Conversely, if > the sight > >ended at some specific point, then there could be no beginning > point for the > >sound! > > The arising and falling away of cittas can be observed sharply and > clearly. It is fast. The idea of drawing a boundary between them > doesn't make any sense to me; however, to describe the > characteristics of a citta and its arising and passing away seems to > be a natural thing to do. I don't find it at all helpful to construct > elaborate theories to justify or bolster observation. No wave theory. > No packet theory. No theories at all. Just observation of reality as > it is. > > > It seems to me, on the basis both of reason and experience > (somewhat), > >that there are before and after with regard to events and > conditions, with > >anicca being a reality [Nothing remains!], that at any point in > time there is > >what there is, and that there are becomings and dissolutions even > within the > >same mindstate, but sharp beginnings and endings are nowhere to be > found. > > Sharp distinctions between nama and rupa, between cittas, clarity in > discerning the arising and passing away can be objects of awareness. > There's no need to develop a wave theory or assume others are > expounding a packet theory. > > Metta, > > Dan > ========================= I agree as to sharp distinctions and non-simulaneity of objects, but instead of point-beginnings I my experience is better described by wave-upslope arisings, and instead of point-endings, my experience is better described by wave-downslope dissolutions. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54181 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:02am Subject: Typo Correction Re: A Bit More upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - A minor correction. :-) In a message dated 12/31/05 5:12:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... meant to write: > I agree as to sharp distinctions and non-simulaneity of objects, but > instead of point-beginnings my experience is better described by > wave-upslope > arisings, and instead of point-endings, my experience is better described by > > wave-downslope dissolutions. > ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54182 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sati and focussing matheesha333 Hi Nina, N: Seeing the arising and falling away of dhammas > is the first principal inmsight and several have to follow before the three > lakkhana are seen very clearly. It is a development. M: What im trying to get at is how deeply do we need to experience? We do not need to see the different types of paccaya for example. Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough. > ------ > M:This might be the easiest > > (possibly the most unsure) way of becoming a sotapanna! > ----- > N: Not easy but the sure way. It needs courage, endeavour, perseverance. M: Sorry, I meant accepting that everything is impermanant based on Faith (saddanusarin) might be easy, but unsure. How much perseverence do they need? They will become sotapanna at the point of death, like sarakani the alcoholic monk! > ------ N: All the enlightenment factors develop together, M: Nina, I think the factors of enlightenment develop even when becoming a sotapanna and not just an arahanth. Is that what you are saying. This is something im unsure of. N: > The accomplishment of charity: because if one is selfish and stingy, how can > one give up the clinging to the view of self. It is all connected. M: We need to be careful here. Self view dissappears at the sotapanna stage. Since avija has not be fully irradicated there is still a subtle sense of self still remaining even though the person knows beyond doubt that there is no self, through direct experiencing of the dhammas (as mentioned in the suttas). Clinging dissppears at later stages, including clinging to material possesions. The grounds for such clinging to self ofcourse becomes weaker, and the person understands that is just habitual thought patterns just repeating when he thinks 'my possesions'. > -------- N: > In another post you were speaking about kamma that can be an obstruction to > attaining enlightenment. Yes, that is what I meant when I wrote to you about > rebirth: §§2-3) that if one is born without paññaa one cannot in that life attain > jhana or enlightenment. Then one is an abhabba person. > > Kamma may cause rebirth as a human with two hetus, without paññaa. M: Yes. But there is a danger in those without much viriya and little self confidence, such thoughts of how much good kamma one has, might become a deterrant to going on the path. Better to try rather than not. M: You mentioned the importance of sila. I dont think panna necessarily means sila. There maybe wise people who are uncontrolled. I dont think panna alone will produce sila. sometimes those with a lot of sadda and little panna have better sila than the other way around. N: These four > factors keep on producing the rupas of the body throughout our life. > I heard some people say that impermanence is not in this way, but how then? > The Buddha said time and again that the five khandhas are impermanent.That > the eye, seeing, visible object etc. are impermanent. M: Yes, I agree. I think i misunderstood what you first wrote. M: I'm doing a little project these days. If you know of any suttas which show stages/progressions like sila, samadhi,panna on the path, please let me know. metta Matheesha 54183 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:53pm Subject: Re: Listening Well : Concentration & insight knowledges buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - I think the great listeners as told in the reviewed suttas all had concentrated minds that supported insight knowledges, while they were listening intently to the Buddha. AN V.140 gives two very important characteristics of "listening well" : 'when the Dhamma & Discipline declared by the Tathagata is being taught, a monk pays attention, applies his whole mind, and lends ear to the Dhamma'. This means paying attention with 100% absorption to the listening, i.e. "lending ear" and "applying mind to gnosis(special knowledge, direct knowledge). Other characteristics given by AN VI.88 are : "grabbing hold of what is worthwhile" (insight knowledge) and being "endowed with the patience to conform with the teaching". The 100% absorption and "gnosis" indicate 'samadhi' and 'nana'. So, it isn't surprising that AN V.202 states that there are rewards like "one's views are made straight and one's mind grows serene" : samma ditthi and samadhi My guess is that "gnosis" in the direct knowledge sense explains why Bahiya released his mind from all defilements in Bahiya Sutta. With appreciation, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Here's a collection of suttas on listening to the true dhamma, with > comments included. > > metta > > Matheesha > --------------------------------------- (snipped) 54184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sati and focussing nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 01-01-2006 02:07 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > N: Seeing the arising and falling away of dhammas >> is the first principal insight and several have to follow before > the three >> lakkhana are seen very clearly. It is a development. > > M: What im trying to get at is how deeply do we need to experience? > We do not need to see the different types of paccaya for example. > Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough. ------ N: No, not all the different paccayas. you say: Intellectual understanding can see this. But the second stage of tender insight is direct understanding of dhammas as conditioned without thinking. This cannot be reached without having first directly realized the distinction between nama and rupa. Thus, I know that the second stage is not thinking or a knowing in general. How it is? When time comes. I cannot tell now. ------ > M: Sorry, I meant accepting that everything is impermanant based on > Faith (saddanusarin) might be easy, but unsure. How much > perseverence do they need? They will become sotapanna at the point > of death, like sarakani the alcoholic monk! ------ N: Based on saddha is here realization of the truth. Saddha was here dominating. Not necessarily at death. >> ------ > N: All the enlightenment factors develop together, > > M: Nina, I think the factors of enlightenment develop even when > becoming a sotapanna and not just an arahanth. Is that what you are > saying. This is something im unsure of. -------- N: When becoming sotapanna and after that they develop more, until arahatship. I mean: they do not develop one by one. They are connected. --------- > N: > The accomplishment of charity: because if one is selfish and > stingy, how can >> one give up the clinging to the view of self. It is all connected. > > M: We need to be careful here. Self view dissappears at the > sotapanna stage... ----- N: Agreed, but all perfections, daana included, are needed to attain enlightenment. They support paññaa. ------- >> -------- > N: > In another post you were speaking about kamma that can be an > obstruction to >> attaining enlightenment. > M: Yes. But there is a danger in those without much viriya and > little self confidence, such thoughts of how much good kamma one > has, might become a deterrant to going on the path. Better to try > rather than not. ----- N: If one is a dvihetuka, paññaa can still be developed in that life. This is to be encouraged. ------- > M: You mentioned the importance of sila. I dont think panna > necessarily means sila. There maybe wise people who are > uncontrolled. I dont think panna alone will produce sila. sometimes > those with a lot of sadda and little panna have better sila than the > other way around. ------- N: Without paññaa siila cannot be fully developed. The Visuddhimagga includes all the stages of insight in siila. The tripartite division of this work is for teaching purposes. The three are connected and overlapping. Kusala siila is kusala through action and speech, but it can also be through the mind-door. Think of the purity of siila that is indriya samvara siila, guarding of the sense-doors. One may be about to say an unkind word, but one abstains. ------- > M: I'm doing a little project these days. If you know of any suttas > which show stages/progressions like sila, samadhi,panna on the > path, please let me know. ------ N: I studied this topic, mentioned in the Parinibbanasutta and Commentary. Here the allusion is to the full accomplishment of siila through lokuttara magga-citta of the sotaapanna. We have to look at the context whether lokuttara citta is referred to or not. I can quote if you like. Nina. 54185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi Tep, op 31-12-2005 22:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I am familiar with accumulation(ayuhana) of kamma. ... > > However, when the term 'accumulation' is said to be a condition for > teachability/learnability and for development of understanding, or > affecting even unteachability, ------- N: Also good and bad inclinations are accumulated and form conditions (by way of strong natural support-condition) for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. Kusala such as daana and also paññaa can develop. They fall away but since they are accumulated from citta to citta they arise again. Cinati is another term for accumulation. The Expositor has a word association between cito, accumulated and citta: it accumulates kamma and the corruptions. But also good tendencies are accumulated. See the Path of Discrimination, about the Omniscient's knowledge: . We read (Ch 69, 585): ³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the wrong view of non-existence 6 thus: ŒThe world is eternal¹ or ŒThe world is not eternal¹ ... Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have Œacceptance in conformity¹ 7 with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ŒThis person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: ŒThis person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ŒThis person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. ... These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings? There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), ....etc.> ***** Nina. 54186 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 0:29am Subject: The Golden Middle Way ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Avoiding the Extremes Opens the Middle Way to Peace! There are, friends, these two extremes, which not should be practiced by any, who has initiated purification: The hunt for sensual pleasures, which is low, vulgar, the common way of ordinary worldlings, ignoble, disadvantageous; and any practice of self-torture, which also is quite painful, ignoble, and rather disadvantageous! Without veering towards either of these extremes, the well-gone-beyond Buddha has awakened to the Middle Way, which leads to assured vision, to direct knowledge, which leads to ease, to peace, to certain understanding, to Enlightenment, to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Way, awakened to by the Buddha, which leads to assured vision, to direct knowledge, which leads to ease, to peace, to certain understanding, to Enlightenment, to Nibbana ? It is this very Noble 8-fold Way: That is Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration That is indeed the very Middle Way, awakened to by the Blessed Buddha, which leads to assured vision, to direct knowledge, which leads to ease, to certain understanding, to Peace, to Bliss, to Enlightenment, to Nibbana... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [330-1] Section 42: On The 6 Senses. Rasiya: 12. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 54187 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 4:12am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 matheesha333 Hi Dan, D:> KS certainly has an unusual approach to teaching and discussing > Dhamma. M: Why do you think it is unusual? D:is there a > distinction between conceptual meditation and real meditation? > Between conceptual monkhood and real monkhood? M: Yes, something which is not clearly obvious if study is based only on the abhidhamma. That is the development of faculties. No matter how much you understand conceptually what meditation is, there will be no development of things like samatha and vipassana. In fact all the dhamma papanca would be deterimental to any one- pointedness of mind which might be present. A monk goes forth because of the following reason: " The household life is close and dusty, the going forth is free as the sky. It is not easy living the household life, to live the fully- perfect holy life, purified and polished like a conch –shell. M: ..and being in a calm envioronment has specific implications for training: Overcoming of the five hindrances "As soon, brahman, as he is possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a glen, a hill cave, a cemetery, a woodland grove, in the open, or on a heap of straw.' http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm M: In the above the Buddha is clearly asking the monk to go to the forest etc. So if anyone tells me that it is useless, or gives it a different interpretation, I will not accept it. D:Although he describes clearly the path, the Buddha never > > > says, "Do these things to put yourself on the path." > > > > 'Then venerable Va泥sa said this stanza to venerable ⮡nda: > > My mind is burning with sensual greed, > > I am a disciple of Gotama; Please tell me, how should I purify my > > mind? > > (⮡nda:) > > Your mind is burning because of a distorted perception > > Avoid that passionate sign, you have welcomed > > Reflect determinations as foreign, unpleasant and lacking a self. > > Extinguish greed altogether and do not be burnt again and again. > > Develop loathsomeness and concentrate the mind in one point. > > Develop mindfulness of the body for welfare and turn away with > > disgust > > Develop the mind without a sign and expel the tendency to measure. > > Thus overcoming measuring live appeased. > >D: Exhortation, yes, clearly. > Method? Purification ritual? No. M: Definition of exhortation: 'a communication intended to urge or persuade the recipients to take some action' wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn M: Yes, the Buddha is asking this man to take some action - it is part of a method (see the above link for the ganakamoggallana sutta). That method is called the Gradual training. "It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline, http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/107-ganakamoggallana-e2.htm Note: 'Training', 'doing', 'practice'. This is far from conceptual. If anyone doesnt believe this (or believe it is possible), then I'm afraid they are stuck deep down in an wrong view. Not even the commentaries would agree with such a thing. It is a corruption. D:>> How is a reading of, say, the satipatthana sutta as an instruction > book any different from a rite or ritual? M: Practicing the satipattana is the path to nibbana. The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four? Note: 'method', it is a path to be tread upon. A rite or ritual implies an action that is worthless/unproductive in the eyes of a non-believer. The Buddha says it is the one way to nibbana. I think that is very productive. This is the path from the conceptual to the absolute. It is very productive if practiced properly. If instructed properly. If the conditions are brought about properly for it to develop. Not otherwise. It is unfortunate that many people dont have these conditions. It is the way to direct experiencing. "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone seven years...six..five.. M: Note: 'develop' We have been studying the dhamma for years and it seems to be happenig at a snails pace, certainly not in 7 years. We really need to consider that we might have got it wrong. At least consider the possiblity that there is something wrong somewhere. D: My question is not about any > particular method (Goenka, Mahasi, etc.) but about the very idea > of "method" itself. What is the difference between method and ritual? M: You (and KS) claim that it is impossible that there can be a method. Yet the Buddha says there is as I have shown above. You need to decide for yourself who's disciple you are my friend. Because these two teachings are going in different directions. D: > Reading the suttas, I hear the Buddha frequently expounding on how > paramattha is experienced, i.e., describing paramattha dhammas in > myriad ways. I believe Tipitaka also discusses specific techniques > for cultivation samatha (e.g., part II of Vism, but I haven't studied > the samatha texts as carefully). What I don't see is any description > of any technique or method for developing vipassana. M: Here it is (note it speaks of samatha and vipassana at the end): "However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing & seeing forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- as it actually is present, one is not infatuated with the eye...forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the eye...whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure- nor-pain. [also for other sense organs] "For him -- uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness. "Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions...the four bases of power...the five faculties...the five strengths...the seven factors of Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [1] [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/149-mahasalayatanika-e2.htm M: If someone can directly experience things like (eye)consciousness arising and passing away, and see how they are conditioned the tilakkana becomes apparent. But sometimes it takes just seeing arising and passing away to understand that there is no self, no doer, that it is all an automatic mechanism. This was what I meant by an anatta experience which I had. D: I think there's > a reason for that, viz., that the notion of doing a particular action > to attain a particular result (i.e., rite, ritual, method, technique) > is inherently tied up with sakayaditthi (which is why both the > fetters of sakayaditthi and silabbataparamasa are shattered at the > same time--they are EXTREMELY closely related). M: My friend. How extreme it is you will know when you have got rid of sakkaya ditti. Till then this will be just theory until proven otherwise. Maggamagga nana is only possible after becoming a sotapanna. Until then we will be wise to be open to possiblities since we do not know the attainments of another person (including KS, myself and anyone else for that matter). When you think in the way you have mentioned above it is clear to me your objections to having a method. I would see it that way myself, were I in your shoes. Let me try to explain. It is complicated so im not surprised at the confusion if it hasnt been experienced. When you experience directly - the result is panna. (bhavanamaya) When you study and contemplate the result is panna. (sutamaya,cintamaya) All these activities are done in the putajjana with a sense of self. One activity is not stronger in a sense of self than the other. A person meditating, does not think 'im meditating, i need to attain insight, i need to become and arahath' every second. ie - there is no expression of avijja asava all the time. In fact in vipassana any papanca is a hindrence because they are concepts and no sati can be maintained adequatley within them. Avijja (as papanca) should arise less because there is calm (samadhi of the developed onepointed variety as mentioned in the VM) and the mind is quiet. So then, there is only direct experiencing. No avijja arising. The proper conditions have been brought about previously to facilitate this. So what happens to the sense of self? To understand this Self we look into its components (dhammaviccaya). Rupa and (eye) consciousness can be understood if we closely observe the process of perception in all of the sense doors. You will see vadana and sanna arising, conditioned from phassa, which in turn was conditioned from rupa and vinnana. You will see new sankharas arising based on what you percieved. You see that all this is automatic and there is no one doing any of this. you will see that it is all conditioned arising. (even intention is automatic-no doer) You will see that they pass away as well. Therefore you see that they are impermanent. Everything you thought was flowing is seen to be an illusion. You understand therefore that 'in short, the five aggregates are suffering'. You have completed your understanding of the First Noble Truth. You have now understood that there is no self, but breaking the fetter comes later with further progress at the point of magga citta. There are many definitions of what silabbataparamasa means. One meaning is rites and rituals like fire worshipping etc. -more linked with the unshakble sadda of a sotapanna in the buddha,dhamma and sangha (3 of the 5 sotapatti anga) in not pursuing the practices of teachers other than the buddha - also linked with the dissappearance of the vicikicca fetter (-about the tripple gem). Another definition i came acros of silabbataparamasa is the one below: FETTER SOTAPATTI ANGA vicikicca <--> sadda in buddha, dhamma, sangha sakkayaditti <--> understanding DO silabbata paramasa <--> keeps the 5 precepts In this breakng of silabbataparamasa was thought to be sila arising naturally, not enforced from outside. (the word itself meaning sila enforced from outside). D: > [And, please, are you certain that ALL KS followers know much theory > but have little insight?] M: I based that on what the leaders in this group said several times. I might be wrong. They may be being modest and not entirely truthful. One the otherhand if it were the truth, then i dont see how others could have insight -except perhaps the ones who correlate their past meditation experiences with what they are learning now. Ofcouse I cant say that ALL the followers dont have insight. But I can clearly say that 99% of people who followed the method i have mentioned above had insight. D:> Regarding my Vipassana practice, please don't rush to judgment. M:> > Then again we need to consider why Howard understood anatta by > using goenka and but it didnt work for you. D:> Again, you assume too much. Let's keep the discussion focussed on > Dhamma and not on "me" and "Howard" and "you" and how great the one > is and how lowly the others. M: I'm sorry. But the way you speak about meditation suggests to me that you have not gained much insight from it, hence you think it is worthless. Ks will attract and concentrate such people. It is not the fault of meditation is it? We need to discuss attainment/understanding - otherwise it is just empty theory. ..and attainment/understandong is individual. We can learn from others. Kalyanamittas are very important. > > > We take it as given that insight at the level of > > > sammasambuddha precludes even errors in language and pedagogy. > > > > M: Interesting. I didnt know that. > > I'm not wholly convinced of it, but in a discussion group dedicated > to developing understanding of what Buddha taught, it would be > counterproductive and off-topic to argue that he was wrong. M: Indeed :) M: Yes better not to speculate about what one doesnt know. But it > > does bring up question about her ability to lead others atleast to > a > > state of sotapanna if she doesnt know how to get there herself. > > Again, let's keep the discussion focussed on Dhamma rather than on > speculation about what someone else does or does not understand. M: I think KS has conditioned in you a quick anwer to anything which is difficult to handle! But nevermind :) take care Matheesha ps- I did note that i was rather pointed in my comments in my previous posts. I think i was a bit irritated as i felt you were being rather challenging. sorry about that. 54188 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 5:27am Subject: Re: Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Hi Jon > >Jon: " Yes, I agree with your characterisation of 'right (kusala) >mental state accompanying appropriate bodily action'. >As I see it, the appropriate bodily action in the case of right >livelihood is forbearing from doing some act of wrong speech or >action in the course of one's livelihood that one is otherwise >inclined to do. >Would you agree that refraining from doing an unwholesome act that >one is about to do can be an instance of kusala?" > >Hm. Your question seems to be so easy (I can simply say 'yes') but is >difficult. >Because the word 'inclined'. In fact your question is: do human >beings have an inclination, and more exactly: do they have a negative >inclination? > > Well, I don't see it that way. My question is simply this: If there is an inclination to do an unwholesome act of speech or body, but then there is the refraining from doing that, can this be an instance of kusala (different from all other instances of kusala)? You mention 'negative' inclination; do you mean 'aksuala', or something else? >As I said to Connie a week ago, there are three opinions: >- deep inside human nature is good (an extreme variant of this is the >idea of 'BuddhaNature') >- human beings are prone to doing evil (the calvinistic way of >thinking) >- there is no human nature >There is variation in what I think about this, but most times I have >the third opinion; your question supposes the second opinion. > I don't think these 'philosophical' questions really come into it! (My own view: All individuals other than the arahant have both wholesome and unwholesome accumulated tendencies.) (BTW, I would not see your 3 opinions, as worded, as being mutually exclusive ones; a person could consistently hold all 3.) >But why make a detour of the double negation? Why talk >about "refraining from doing unwholesome"; > The double negative is a matter of linguistic expression and thus, in the present context, of form rather than substance. The substance here, as I see it, is the underlying behavioural situation and its accompanying mental state (if you have a better description of that particular situation, by all means share it with us!). > I prefer - as said before - > a postive formulation of ethics, and will say: "doing wholesome". > The formulation is a matter of form and thus to some extent of personal preference. But the important thing, as I see it, is the underlying behaviour and mental state. Jon 54189 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 6:18am Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Connie and James)- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 31-12-2005 22:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > I am familiar with accumulation(ayuhana) of kamma. ... > > > > However, when the term 'accumulation' is said to be a condition for > > teachability/learnability and for development of understanding, or > > affecting even unteachability, > ------- > N: Also good and bad inclinations are accumulated and form conditions (by way of strong natural support-condition) for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. > Kusala such as daana and also paññaa can develop. They fall away but since they are accumulated from citta to citta they arise again. > Cinati is another term for accumulation. The Expositor has a word > association between cito, accumulated and citta: it accumulates kamma and the corruptions. But also good tendencies are accumulated. > See the Path of Discrimination, about the Omniscient's knowledge: > . We read (Ch 69, 585): > > ³Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. > 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? > Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the wrong view of non-existence 6 thus: The world is eternal¹ or The world is not eternal¹ ... Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have acceptance in conformity with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. > He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: > ŒThis person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is > inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: > ŒThis person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, > is inclined to non-ill-will. ... > These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. > 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings? > There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), ....etc.> > ***** Tep: Thanks for stepping in to provide your view and more review of the literature. Now not only Connie but you also have added layers on top of the original definitions ! You may not know that I am a researcher myself. So I know that all researchers have a strong tendency to extend and add their interpretation and deduction -- their "contributions" -- to the literature of their areas of expertise. Comments and additions are laid on top of the existing theories and principles; finally, either they have made some progress, discovered new theory, etc., or the original truths become distorted out of shape. I just hope that writers/researchers in Buddhism always keep that danger in mind so that the true teachings may not be polluted. Sincerely, Tep ========= 54190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi Tep, I know that you respect the Path of Discrimination. This helps to understand accumulation, not only kamma. I am not aware of adding extras. What are you researching? Nina. op 01-01-2006 15:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Now not only Connie but you also have added layers on > top of the original definitions ! > > You may not know that I am a researcher myself. So I know that all > researchers have a strong tendency to extend and add their > interpretation and deduction 54191 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 6:29am Subject: Fewness of Wishes: The buddhist of ancient times rjkjp1 Dear Group, We sometimes speak about how there were many wise ones in the ancient days who could understand deeply, and now how few there are. Those wise ones of old- even they were genuine attainers of insight- such as a layman who attained anagami and who was praised by the Buddha. The layman asked that the Buddha not reveal this to other laydisciples. Or the monks when they took on dhutanga: "That Elder, it seems, was a sitter, but no one knew it. Then one night the other saw him by the light of a flash of lightning sitting up on his bed. He asked, "Are you a sitter, venerable sir?". Out of fewness of wishes that his ascetic practice should get known, the Elder lay down. Afterwards he undertook the practice anew"(Pm. 77). The other was his twin brother who knew him all his life. He did not want the brother(or anyone) to think highly of him because he had taken on the sitting practice. Different now- someone has a strange experience and next they want to proclaim they have had vipassana insight or even jhana (or even many jhanas!). Monks, of course, are forbidden by the vinaya to even hint at any attainment(see postscript)to laypeople, but we laybuddhists of today sometimes play a game of conceit and delusion to see who trumps the other. Funny, but also a sign of how little real understanding there is. Sutta Nipata "Whoever boasts to others, unasked, of his practices, precepts, is, say the skilled, ignoble by nature -- he who speaks of himself of his own accord." Robertk Postscript: VINAYA "Should any bhikkhu report (his own) factual superior human state to an unordained person, it is to be confessed. The factors for the full offense here are three: 1) Object: an unordained person, i.e., anyone -- human or not -- who is not a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. 2) Effort: One reports one's actual attainment of a superior human state to such a person. 3) Result: The person immediately understands. Only two of these factors -- effort and result -- require explanation. Effort. The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length under Parajika 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, (b) the cognitive powers that can arise as its result, and (c) the transcendent states. Factual is not explained in the texts, but probably means factual from the bhikkhu's own point of view. In other words, whether or not he has actually attained a superior human state, if he thinks he has and reports it to an unordained person, he commits an offense all the same. To report, says the Vibhanga, means to speak directly of one's own attainments. To speak indirectly of one's own attainments -- e.g., "The bhikkhu who lives in this dwelling enters jhana at will" - - entails a dukkata. According to the Commentary, gestures fall under this rule as well. Thus, if a lay person asks a bhikkhu who has attained Stream-entry if he has reached any of the noble attainments, and the bhikkhu nods, his nod would fulfill the factor of effort here.""" 54192 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 6:50am Subject: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for asking : > What are you researching? > Nina. My professional areas of research were in statistical forecasting using control theory and systems optimization. Nowadays I research in Buddhism and equity investing. Buddhism research is for knowledge, while equity investing research is for making a living. {:-)) Warm regards, Tep ========== 54193 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 7:50am Subject: Re: Listening Well matheesha333 Hi Tep, T: > -- hearing from a buddha or an arahant ( Tep: So we are hopeless to > become sotapanna through listening in this life because the next > Buddha has not yet arrrived and we do not know where an arahant may be > found? {:->) ) M: Shall we go looking for one!? > >M: So I think even though it is possible that listening itself can > give rise to vimutti as mentioned in the suttas, it must be on fertile > soil for it to be practical. T: > -- the listener's faculties are mature (Tep: How mature?) M: Mature to the point that they need no further developing and that all that is reqired is for panna to reach its peak. Conditions more commonly found in a retreat setting. Saddha to the point of going on retreat, viriya to the point of keeping mindfulness right through the day, samadhi to a near jhanic or jhana level. I think this would be adequate. If this seems impossible you might want to see what hindrence is active. > Tep: Math, you are not convinced that having a right view "means being > an ariya. True, there are several definitions of "right view". MN 117 > defines two levels (Bhikkhu Bodhi calls them mundane and supramundane > right views). Arahant Sariputta Thera in MN9 describes several ways > (based on the 11 links of the Dependent Originations ) a monk might > become "one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect > confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". M: Tep, in the Samma ditti sutta sariputta talks of 'he here and now makes an end of suffering' or 'he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. This is about an arahath, not a sotapanna. T:> In MN 2 the right view of a Sotapanna was clearly defined by the > Buddha based on yoniso-manisikara (wise/appropriate attention) as follows. > "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way > leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in > this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, > and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the > fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." M: Yes, I agree with this. But it does not speak of Right view, just yonisomanasikara. But what a find! I knew of this before but i did not link it up with the factors required to become a sotapanna. Thank you Tep. It is a mental technique for directing thought in the right way. > Tep: The above is the same as dhammanupassana of the ariya-sacca in > Maha-satipatthana Sutta. I am happily contented with this right view > because it assures that the lower three fetters are cut off > permanently. But a question is : how does one appropriately attends to > the four noble truths such that the three fetters can be abandoned for > good? Can someone, who understands satipatthana well enough, explain > to me how? I remember Dan D. and I tried to answer the "how to" once, > but our discussion did not reach an "appropriate" or "wise" conclusion. M: Perhaps my answers to Dan might be useful in this regard. We can discuss it further if you like. There was another sutta by sariputta where he speaks of what needs to be done for different levels of the path including the sotapanna stage (all were the same). Do you remember that sutta? > I think an answer to the first question above is seen in your quoted > Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8. M: I only have a pali version of this and i dont know how to read pali! Do you have an enlish (or sinhala) translation? > >M: when one listens to the Dhamma attentively, the 5 hindrances > (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of enlightenment > (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to become an > Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper attention > (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas. M: Tep, i think you said this, not me! Is this from the same sutta? > Tep: It seems to me that listening attentively is eqivalent to yoniso > manasikara of the four noble truth as stated in MN 2. But listening to > whom (no arahant or a Buddha is available)? Is reading of that sutta > (SN 46.4.8) sufficient? M: My friend, like i said those factors dont automatically pop out of nowhere when listening to a Buddha or anyone else. Sometimes there will be only one person who can understand right away. Going on retreat, meditation, development of samadhi and vipassana (panna), then reading/listening to suttas/sermons, is the best chance there is IMO. (which is what those monks were doing when they become sotapannas in droves in the suttas) Good topic to discuss Tep. Thanks for it. take care Matheesha 54194 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 8:46am Subject: Re: Fewness of Wishes: The buddhist of ancient times matheesha333 Hi RobertK, > Sutta Nipata > "Whoever boasts to others, unasked, > of his practices, precepts, > is, say the skilled, > ignoble by nature -- > he who speaks of himself > of his own accord." > Robertk M: I agree. We need to be careful of those who claim such things. If someone comes out of nowhere and says s/he is capable of this, knows that, this path is impossible, that path is possible, we need to be careful. We need to apply it to the dhamma-vinaya and see if what they say is acurate. We also need to keep in mind the slight chance that they might be right - I'm reminded of the 5 ascetics who rejected claims of the buddha as to his enlightenment ie not have a dogmatic closed mind, but be careful and wise. No one tells of these things easily. It might be done with a purpose other than conceit, which is easy to project. Its a sacrifice with an objective in mind. No one is enlightened. --------------- "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' ----------- The Buddha once stated that Ugga [anagamin] was possessed of eight special and wonderful qualities. One of the monks, hearing the Buddha's statement, went to Ugga and asked him what these qualities were. Ugga replied that he was not aware of what the Buddha had in mind and proceeded to explain eight wonderful things that had happened to him, viz.: ---------- metta Matheesha 54195 From: "Alan McAllister" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 9:22am Subject: Abhidhamma course drampsych Is there an Abhidhamma on-line course available? AMcA 54196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Atomized, Digitized, Re: accumulations nilovg Hi Tep, I like your answer. Nina op 01-01-2006 15:50 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Buddhism research is for knowledge, > while equity investing research is for making a living. 54197 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 11:38am Subject: Accumulation & Inclined to akusala? (Was:[dsg] Re: Right Livelihood of the NEP jwromeijn Hallo Jon Again I changed the name of the thread, it's really a dynamic one; this time because you introduced the concept 'accumulated' Jon: "Well, I don't see it that way. My question is simply this: If there is an inclination to do an unwholesome act of speech or body, but then there is the refraining from doing that, can this be an instance of kusala (different from all other instances of kusala)? Joop: If you want an answer: NO; because I'm not refraining to do negative but the feeling of urgency to to positive, that is: to behave in an ethical way. ===================================================== Jon: "You mention 'negative' inclination; do you mean 'aksuala', or something else?" Joop: Of course, what else? As far as I understand the concepts 'kusala' and 'akusala', I translate in my shorthand them as 'negative' and 'positive'. But don't forget: I didn't start the use of the term 'inclination', because I don't know if a human being has an inclination at all. (see below) ===================================================== Joop (some days ago)>But why make a detour of the double negation? Why talk >about "refraining from doing unwholesome"; Jon: "The double negative is a matter of linguistic expression and thus, in the present context, of form rather than substance. The substance here, as I see it, is the underlying behavioural situation and its accompanying mental state (if you have a better description of that particular situation, by all means share it with us!). Joop: "the underlying behavioural situation" as you label it, is to have a ethical correct job (right livelihood not as a moment but as a NEP-aspect) In the second place, the difference is more than only linguistic. When I describe something positive, I don't need to assume something negative first and then negate it; I don't know it that something negative (akusala) exists at all. A question to you: is for you the difference kusala - akusala only linguistic? ==================================================== Jon: " I don't think these 'philosophical' questions really come into it! (My own view: All individuals other than the arahant have both wholesome and unwholesome accumulated tendencies.) Joop: About the term 'accumulated' or 'accumulations' I have sone some research. As Tep wrote some days ago, is used in the commentaries (and not in the Tipitaka, that makes it already suspect) only combined with the kamma-concept. In Nyanatiloka Dictionary: áyúhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhára; s. paticca-samuppáda), being the bases of future rebirth. " 'Accumulation', is a name for the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetaná) which arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma-bhava, s. Vis.M. XVII, IX, X). Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive- moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of advertence (ávajjana, s. viññána-kicca), these are called the karma- formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma- process (kamma-bhava).... Or, each volition is called 'karma-process' and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma-formation'. " (Vis.M. XVII). Cf. paticca-samuppáda (2, 10) - (App.). In #1062 of okt 2000 (nothing is permanent but you are consistent !!!) you explain: "Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so long that we forget they are not standard use! Thanks for raising this. "Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various tendencies we all have that make up the distinct personality and character by which we are conventionally known. For example, our preferences for particular tastes or colours, our good and bad qualities, the way we walk and talk and so on. Being easily angered or being interested in the dhamma would be other examples. They are called accumulations because, of course, they have been accumulated during the past. The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala inclinations we have accumulated. They come in different strengths, the subtle ones being the latent tendencies referred to in Kom's post. Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among other ways) by the citta which immediately precedes it, each citta contains the sum of all previous cittas. So in fact there is much more that is accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to." This is more then the use of the term as in the Nyatiloka-quote: it's overstretching the meaning. It sounds to me as the existence of an innate personality (do I hear somebody say: this is atta-belief?) And if isn't innate but has only to do with this life, then accumulations like you (and Nina) use them, then "accumulations" can be translated in psychological terms as "personality traits": positive traits and negative traits. I'm not enthouastic about this kind of psychology. Metta Joop 54198 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 6:36am Subject: Hello scottduncan2 Dear Group Members, Following the sign-in encouragement, I just thought I'd briefly introduce myself. I'm quite new to Buddhism and have come, over the past year or so, to rest within the Theravadin tradition. I've found a deep interest in, among other things, the words of the Buddha, the Abhidhamma, eventually learning Pali, and the like. It was suggested to me by one of the kind moderators within the Theravadin forum on e-sangha that I might consider entering this ether-space for a more focused learning regarding these interests. Thanks for your consideration. I'll shadow for awhile before actually wading in, if you don't mind. Sincerely, Scott. 54199 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 1, 2006 2:53pm Subject: Re: Listening Well buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha - To facilitate the discussion that is getting more lengthy, let me divide it into subsets. (Set 1) > > Tep: Math, you are not convinced that having a right view "means > being an ariya. True, there are several definitions of "right view". MN > 117 defines two levels (Bhikkhu Bodhi calls them mundane and > supramundane right views). Arahant Sariputta Thera in MN9 describes several ways (based on the 11 links of the Dependent Originations ) a monk might become "one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". > > M: Tep, in the Samma ditti sutta sariputta talks of 'he here and now > makes an end of suffering' or 'he entirely abandons the underlying > tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, > he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I > am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he > here and now makes an end of suffering. This is about an arahath, > not a sotapanna. > Tep: The first right view is not that of the Arahant : "one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma"; I have not claimed this right view to be that of a sotapanna either. The point I have tried to make is there are several right views. .......................... (Set 2) > > T: But a question is : how does one appropriately attends to > > the four noble truths such that the three fetters can be abandoned > for good? > >Can someone, who understands satipatthana well enough, > explain to me how? I remember Dan D. and I tried to > >answer the "how to" once, > > but our discussion did not reach an "appropriate" > >or "wise" conclusion. > > M: Perhaps my answers to Dan might be useful in this regard. We can > discuss it further if you like. There was another sutta by sariputta > where he speaks of what needs to be done for different levels of the > path including the sotapanna stage (all were the same). Do you > remember that sutta? > Tep: No further discussion with Dan is needed, thanks. But if you want to, please give your answer to the above question (i.e. how does one appropriately attends to the four noble truths such that the three fetters can be abandoned for good? ) I cannot recall the "another sutta" by the Arahant-- I need more details, please. .............................. (Set 3) > > >M: when one listens to the Dhamma attentively, the 5 hindrances > > (nivarana) do not exist and the 7 factors of enlightenment > > (bojjhanga) are complete. These are the conditions to become an > > Ariya. Therefore, if we listen to the Dhamma with proper attention > > (yoniso manasikara) we can become Ariyas. > > M: Tep, i think you said this, not me! Is this from the same sutta? > I am sorry. It was my quote from Dhammavuddho's article that I had posted for you at the beginning of the discussion. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > T: > -- hearing from a buddha or an arahant ( Tep: So we are > hopeless to > > become sotapanna through listening in this life because the next > > Buddha has not yet arrrived and we do not know where an arahant > may be > > found? {:->) ) > > M: Shall we go looking for one!? > > > >M: So I think even though it is possible that listening itself can > > give rise to vimutti as mentioned in the suttas, it must be on > fertile soil for it to be practical. -- the listener's faculties are mature (Tep: How mature?) > > M: Mature to the point that they need no further developing and that > all that is reqired is for panna to reach its peak. Conditions more > commonly found in a retreat setting. Saddha to the point of going on > retreat, viriya to the point of keeping mindfulness right through > the day, samadhi to a near jhanic or jhana level. I think this would > be adequate. If this seems impossible you might want to see what > hindrence is active. > (snipped) > T:> In MN 2 the right view of a Sotapanna was clearly defined by the > > Buddha based on yoniso-manisikara (wise/appropriate attention) as follows. > > "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the > origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way > > leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in > > this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, > > and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the > > fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." > > M: Yes, I agree with this. But it does not speak of Right view, just > yonisomanasikara. But what a find! I knew of this before but i did > not link it up with the factors required to become a sotapanna. > Thank you Tep. It is a mental technique for directing thought in the > right way. > > > Tep: The above is the same as dhammanupassana of the ariya-sacca in Maha-satipatthana Sutta. I am happily contented with this right view because it assures that the lower three fetters are cut off permanently. (snipped) > > I think an answer to the first question above is seen in your > quoted Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 46.4.8. > > M: I only have a pali version of this and i dont know how to read > pali! Do you have an enlish (or sinhala) translation? > (snipped) > > Tep: It seems to me that listening attentively is eqivalent to > yoniso manasikara of the four noble truth as stated in MN 2. But > listening to whom (no arahant or a Buddha is available)? Is reading of that sutta (SN 46.4.8) sufficient? > > M: My friend, like i said those factors dont automatically pop out > of nowhere when listening to a Buddha or anyone else. Sometimes > there will be only one person who can understand right away. Going > on retreat, meditation, development of samadhi and vipassana > (panna), then reading/listening to suttas/sermons, is the best > chance there is IMO. (which is what those monks were doing when they become sotapannas in droves in the suttas) > > Good topic to discuss Tep. Thanks for it. > > take care > > Matheesha >