54400 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 3:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Boy you two..., I am more like TG in my thinking. But then again, Rob, ask yourself which approach is the most useful to ya. And then tell us why! Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi Rob M Enjoying the comments! In a message dated 1/6/2006 11:05:28 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M > > Just a couple of points but fundamentally I think we agree on most things... > > > In a message dated 1/4/2006 4:05:20 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > In your example, you gave many, many examples of "indirect > conditions" that do not immediately connect to the immediate moment. > The Patthana only looks at "direct" conditions. > > TG: I'd be interested in how "absence condition" is a "direct condition"? > I don't believe it can be. > ===== I guess I mean directly impacting, not impacting something which in turns impacts something else. Perhaps just a semantics issue. TG: I understand what you mean! -- "next to" I think. It seems sort or relative to me as to what is immediately "next to" vs separated in terms of causal chains. ===== > > > DO is defined as the 12 fold chain. The fact that all things (except > Nibbana) are conditioned is a general principle. There are numerous > conditions (jhana condition, for example) which are not involved in > DO, yet they are still listed in the Patthana. > > TG: DO is defined as the 12 fold chain??? Who says? ===== The most frequently used book in my library is "Buddhist Dictionary - Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines" by Ven. Nyanatiloka. The most frequently .PDF that I access on my computer is the same text. It can be downloaded from: www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/palidict.pdf Unfortunately, this .pdf does not allow me to cut and paste, so I also access the on-line version of the text when I want to copy information into a message or into my class notes. This can be accessed at: www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm I interpret this dictionary as saying that DO is defined as the 12 fold chain (see definition of Paticcasamuppada). I also see conditions as the more general principle (see definition of Paccaya). TG: I don't know how we can read the same dictionary and see it 100% opposite! Read the first definition (first paragraph) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary of Paticcasamuppada --- It say exactly what I've been saying...that "paticcasamuppada 'dependent origination' is the doctrine of the conditionality of all physical and psychical phenomena..." Generally the first definition is considered the leading aspect of the word being defined. I repeat ..." ALL PHYSICAL AND PSYCHICAL PHENOMENA" <....> 54401 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 4:34pm Subject: Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! buddhistmedi... Hi Joop (and Howard) - I find it convenient to reply to Howard's message #54381 that includes your questions to me in the message #54367. > > Joop: > >Tep, perhaps this is a little bit the answer to (or opinion about) to your questions in #54364 "Do you think the rebirth mechanism is best explained by discrete kamma and avijja, while the chain-like continuity (from one rebirth to the next) is best explained by "accumulation"(ayuhana)? Do you know of a better theory or explanation?" ............................. >Joop: > What is it that continues in rebirth-linking according the > Abhidhamma. What I have understood the continuity is ONE citta > together with many cetesikas. The one citta: death consciousness > (cuti) of the dying being = rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) of the new born. And the cetasikas (even the in the life accumulated > cetasikas) accompany that one citta in the rebirth-transition ... Tep: What is your purpose for combining the 'cuti citta' and 'patisandhi citta' into one citta? Why not assuming that there is ONE citta from the very beginning (many, many, many lives ago)? :-) "All Buddhas and all beings in the world are nothing but the single citta. Outside this single citta nothing at all exists. The single citta, free from the conventional self, is something that was not made and is something, which cannot be destroyed." ---- The Citta Is Buddha http://www.dhammasala.org/content/view/67/115/ ...................... >Joop: > > And what is kamma or more exact the fruit of kamma that continues > from one life to the next. ... Tep: Based on the "single citta" principle, the "flow" of all kamma resultants from one life to the next would be a permanent phenomenon that remains the same, until there is an action that produces a change in the flow. But such a statement would be contradicting to the anatta principle the Buddha taught!! ...................... >Joop: > I don't belief in reincarnation (something else as rebirth) in which > there is some or much continuity in personality traits or even more > continuity. On the intellectual Theravada-level I can say: that is > atta-belief .. Tep: Without rebirth consciousness and continuity of kamma there would be no reason to turn to the Buddha's Teachings in order to abandon Dukkha. ..................... >Joop: > A second possiblility is rebirth as described above: contiuity > between two lives of one citta plus accumulated cetasikas. Then the > question is: what is stored in that one citta plus cetasikas? > IN THE ABHIDHAMMA-SYSTEM AS I UNDERSTAND IT, ONLY PARAMATTHA > DHAMMAS ARE STORED, NO CONCEPTS Tep: I belief an answer to your question is in the article " Citta Is Buddha" that I quoted from (see above). As to your capitalized idea, maybe the following paragraph helps ring the bell? I'm not so sure. "When the first beings died, it was this gross kamma alone that caused them to continue arising in order to "pay the debt" of that gross kamma that they had made. When they were reborn, however, they did not pay this debt but increased it, creating the twin conditions of male and female resulting in subtle Rupa fixed inside the five senses and again causing the twin conditions up to their present becoming. By the power of this gross kamma within the subtle Rupa of the five senses, they coalesced, spinning together into a "ball of atoms" persisting as Rupa by ceaselessly orbiting itself. It is the "cave" inside which the citta resides and is called "Rupa-Vinnana" or copied form. This is because it is copied by Nama through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body and becomes subtle Rupa latent within the void. Rupa-Vinnana which has life span, remains longer than gross Rupa and has gross kamma to keep it spinning and persisting. There is no god who can destroy this, only Nibbana can, Rupa-Vinnana would then disappear." ................... I have no comments on the above quoted paragraph. {:->)} Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Tep & Nina) - > > In a message dated 1/6/06 5:02:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jwromeijn@y... writes: > > > Hallo Howard, Tep, Nina > > > > Howard, your remarks on "right speech" made more clear to me that we > > (or only "I") in DSG should distinguish intellectual efforts to > > understand Buddhisme, for example the Theravada Abhidhamma system ànd > > get clear for ourselves (or "myself") what to believe. (snipped) 54402 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 1/6/06 6:42:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > > Hi, Howard (and Joop )- > > I wrote about the 'discrete' rebirth mechanism and it was confusing. > > >Howard: > >I don't know what you mean here by 'discrete'. > > Tep: > > It means the on/off or 0/1 characteristic of any phenomenon that > arises and passes away (stops or dissolves). The arising event, for > example, is just a discrete point in the time dimension. A discrete > point, I think, may be called a "moment". ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ok. ----------------------------------------- > ...................... > > >Howard: > >There are two categories of experience, namic (mental) and rupic > (physical). At any point in time, the object-content of experience > could be of either sort, though the rupic is fundamental, and other > concomitant mental operations are in effect at the same time. > > Tep: I would think differently : any experience (of a citta) is > nothing but an arising or passing away of dukkha. ['The All is > aflame'... 'Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the > fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, > aging &death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & > despairs'. SN XXXV.28] > ...................... --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is a useful but not literal way of speaking. Literally, phenomena of a wide variety arise, all of which are dukkha in the sense of not being ultimate or lasting sources of satisfaction. ---------------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > >During one lifetime (i.e., while tuned to a particular show or, > better said, sequence of shows - for one lifetime is really much like > a series - one experiential event flows smoothly into the next. But, > more abruptly, at the "decision point" that is a physical death, there > is a more abrupt transition - there is a change in channel, and that > channel change, a change to a new experiential context or even new > realm of experience, is what we call "rebirth". It is a key moment of > kammic fruition and determination. > > Tep: So you say the best description (or model) of a life (of a being) > is by employing both discrete and continuous events. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, not quite. Within the same lifetime, there is a content-continuity from mindstate to mindstate in the sense of the content being similar and closely related, but there is a radical change in category of content at waking < -> dream transitions and at death -> birth transitions. This pertains to *content*. But the transition from mindstate to mindstate, at all times, is of the same sort. (What that transition is, 0/1 packet transitions, or consecutive-wave transitions, is a different issue.) ------------------------------------------ I like the idea> > that rebirth is "a key moment of kammic fruition and determination". > However, I would think that the rebirth event may or may not be > "abrupt". The gap (in time) between the death moment and rebirth could > be possible. If a gap is not possible, then how would you explain the > so-called "death-like experiences" (e.g. a "dead person" woke up > several hours later after a doctor-pronounced-death to tell a story of > his/her experience after death)? You might think Tep is silly! ------------------------------------------- Howard: One of the early schools other than Theravada accepted transitional realms, much as the Tibetans do, and Peter Harvey has pointed out a Pali sutta that is suggestive of an intermediate state between lives. But if there is such, well, one could just define that as itself a realm of existence also. ---------------------------------------------- > ................... > > >>Tep: > >Do you know of a better theory or explanation? > > ---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > Well, what I believe (for the time being) is what I said above. As to > its being better, or even adequate, I'll leave for others to form > their opinions. > > > Tep: Good idea, Howard. > > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54403 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 4:55pm Subject: Re: Request for Healing Thoughts robmoult Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > If I may impose on you: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, > has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are > very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but not > well. For those of you who put credence in the power of thought and who are > so inclined, I would very much appreciate your kind thoughts and wishes for her > welfare and for our children and my wife to have the strength to bear up > under this ordeal. ===== Your message had a huge impact on my practice this morning. I started my metta with myself (albeit briefly) and then moved to radiating metta to you, Howard. I put you in the bucket of "part teacher and part friend" (kalyana-mitta in Pali), so it is easy to radiate metta to you. Your message today created a wholesome sense of urgency (samvega) in my metta practice. Rather than generalizing my metta after radiating to you, Howard, I immediately switched to karuna meditation. As you know, the first object to be taken in karuna meditation is one who is suffering. I focused on your grand-daughter with, "may your pain be reduced" – the fact that she is a baby made the compassion stronger. I then extended the karuna to your son, his wife, you and your wife. Again, Howard, your message today created a wholesome sense of urgency (samvega) in my karuna practice. Rather than generalizing my karuna after radiating to your grand- daughter, you and your family, I then switched to mudita meditation. Howard, it occurred to me that you find strength in the Dhamma at this difficult time. I rejoiced in this, thinking, "may your good fortune not leave you". I felt the joy of the Dhamma. Once again, rather than generalizing my mudita meditation, I switched to upekkha. I reflected, "all beings are owners of their kamma". This includes your grand-daughter, you and the rest of your family. Howard, your message today created a sense of urgency in my practice. Thank you. I have been inspired by this. Your message today gave me a direct experience of all four brahma viharas – direct experience is the most valuable type of lesson. Thank you. I have also learned the practical power of using the brahma viharas as a team rather than simply taking them one at a time and generalizing each. Thank you again. Today, I am doing the final preparation for my first Abhidhamma class of the year (new class starts tomorrow morning). I sincerely dedicate whatever merits I may accrue through this preparation and the teaching tomorrow to help your grand-daughter, you and your family. I will also be doing a sanghika-dana (offering food to a collection of monks) tomorrow morning and I will ask the monks to chant some verses on behalf of your grand-daughter. Howard, please reply off- list with her name. I have been told that having a name makes the chanting more effective. Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, Rob M :-) There may be some readers of this message who react with, "He is just boasting". This is not my character. It is part of the Buddhist tradition to share this kind of thing. In fact, the sharing of merit and rejoicing in other people's merits is considered to be a meritorious deed itself. 54404 From: "Dan D." Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 4:57pm Subject: Re: Request for Healing Thoughts onco111 Dear Howard, May you all be strong and peaceful in this difficult time. I know that your knowledge and faith in Dhamma and your kind heart will be great support to your family, and may this time provide conditions for y'all's growth in wisdom. My thoughts are with you and your granddaughter. With metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > If I may impose on you: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, > has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are > very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but not > well. For those of you who put credence in the power of thought and who are > so inclined, I would very much appreciate your kind thoughts and wishes for her > welfare and for our children and my wife to have the strength to bear up > under this ordeal. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. My apologies for multiple copies to those of you on more than one of the > lists I mailed this to. > 54405 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Boy you two..., > > I am more like TG in my thinking. But then again, Rob, ask yourself which approach is the most useful to ya. And then tell us why! > ===== Thanks for the suggestion to make it pratical rather than theoretical. I will add this to the mixture simmering on the back burner! Metta, Rob M :-) 54406 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts lbidd2 Hi all, Here's something you might try. http://www.khandro.net/practice_send_receive.htm It's a variation on the Brahma Vihara. I have found that it can affect others. You don't need to stay with the breath if you can get a sense of sending and taking positive and negative energy, similar to radiating the four immeasurables, kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. In this practice you are working with general and particular manifestations of suffering. Through Howard's emails we all have a connection with this child and her family, so we can sort of lean into that connection and extend our intentions. Cultivate love (joyful interest) to focus the mind. Piti is the proximate cause of samadhi. Larry 54407 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Dear Rob - Thank you so much for this wonderful post of yours. As in the past, you show your goodness so clearly! I thank you very much on behalf of our granddaughter, whose name I will send to you directly, her parents, and my wife and myself. I am happy that this matter has impacted your practice in a good way. What a happy bi-product. We just heard from our daughter-in-law from the hospital, and it looks as though the present troublesome matter will turn out all right! I will be sending a post tomorrow when more is known, but we're very hopeful for the time being. Our granddaughter's longer term problems are still very much with her and will have to be dealt with, but for now things are looking up! With much metta, Howard In a message dated 1/6/06 7:57:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: > Your message had a huge impact on my practice this morning. > > I started my metta with myself (albeit briefly) and then moved to > radiating metta to you, Howard. I put you in the bucket of "part > teacher and part friend" (kalyana-mitta in Pali), so it is easy to > radiate metta to you. Your message today created a wholesome sense of > urgency (samvega) in my metta practice. > > Rather than generalizing my metta after radiating to you, Howard, I > immediately switched to karuna meditation. As you know, the first > object to be taken in karuna meditation is one who is suffering. I > focused on your grand-daughter with, "may your pain be reduced" – the > fact that she is a baby made the compassion stronger. I then extended > the karuna to your son, his wife, you and your wife. Again, Howard, > your message today created a wholesome sense of urgency (samvega) in > my karuna practice. > > Rather than generalizing my karuna after radiating to your grand- > daughter, you and your family, I then switched to mudita meditation. > Howard, it occurred to me that you find strength in the Dhamma at > this difficult time. I rejoiced in this, thinking, "may your good > fortune not leave you". I felt the joy of the Dhamma. > > Once again, rather than generalizing my mudita meditation, I switched > to upekkha. I reflected, "all beings are owners of their kamma". This > includes your grand-daughter, you and the rest of your family. > > Howard, your message today created a sense of urgency in my practice. > Thank you. I have been inspired by this. Your message today gave me a > direct experience of all four brahma viharas – direct experience is > the most valuable type of lesson. Thank you. I have also learned the > practical power of using the brahma viharas as a team rather than > simply taking them one at a time and generalizing each. Thank you > again. > > Today, I am doing the final preparation for my first Abhidhamma class > of the year (new class starts tomorrow morning). I sincerely dedicate > whatever merits I may accrue through this preparation and the > teaching tomorrow to help your grand-daughter, you and your family. I > will also be doing a sanghika-dana (offering food to a collection of > monks) tomorrow morning and I will ask the monks to chant some > verses on behalf of your grand-daughter. Howard, please reply off- > list with her name. I have been told that having a name makes the > chanting more effective. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) > > There may be some readers of this message who react with, "He is just > boasting". This is not my character. It is part of the Buddhist > tradition to share this kind of thing. In fact, the sharing of merit > and rejoicing in other people's merits is considered to be a > meritorious deed itself. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54408 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 1:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard In messages dated 1/6/06: Dan wrote: _____________________ Dear Howard, May you all be strong and peaceful in this difficult time. I know that your knowledge and faith in Dhamma and your kind heart will be great support to your family, and may this time provide conditions for y'all's growth in wisdom. My thoughts are with you and your granddaughter. With metta, Dan ---------------------------------------------- and Larry wrote: __________________________ Hi all, Here's something you might try. http://www.khandro.net/practice_send_receive.htm It's a variation on the Brahma Vihara. I have found that it can affect others. You don't need to stay with the breath if you can get a sense of sending and taking positive and negative energy, similar to radiating the four immeasurables, kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. In this practice you are working with general and particular manifestations of suffering. Through Howard's emails we all have a connection with this child and her family, so we can sort of lean into that connection and extend our intentions. Cultivate love (joyful interest) to focus the mind. Piti is the proximate cause of samadhi. Larry --------------------------------------------- Thank you both so much for your kindness! As I wrote to Rob, matters have vastly improved! So, we are hopeful. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54409 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 6:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > <..> > > > > Session 1 > > > > 1. Read the following from Nina's book `Abhidhamma in Daily Life' again > > and again and ask questions to the group or raise any points on it for > > further discussion/reflection: > > > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/contents.htm > > > > >THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS > > There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical > > phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience > > anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible > > object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. > > What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. > <...> > > > ======= > > Is school still in? > In a response to Phillip earlier, Nina stated: "We] know that there is citta, otherwise nothing in the world would appear." How exactly is this statement to be properly understood? Thanks for your consideration. > Sincerely, > Scott. > 54410 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 10:10pm Subject: Re: Request for Healing Thoughts christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > If I may impose on you: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, > has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are > very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but not > well. For those of you who put credence in the power of thought and who are > so inclined, I would very much appreciate your kind thoughts and wishes for her > welfare and for our children and my wife to have the strength to bear up > under this ordeal. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. My apologies for multiple copies to those of you on more than one of the > lists I mailed this to. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) Dear Howard, I am particularly remembering you and your wife, your son and his wife and the little one, and holding you all in my heart during practice of the Brahma Viharas. May you all be well and happy, may you all be healthy and strong, may you all be happy of heart and mind, may you all live with ease and well-being. I also remember you all and hold you in my heart each day when I am in the Special Care Nursery at the hospital, and am well-wishing the little ones there also. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 54411 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/6/2006 5:07:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rob.moult@... writes: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M > > Enjoying the comments! > ===== Me too! ===== > TG: I don't know how we can read the same dictionary and see it 100% > opposite! Read the first definition (first paragraph) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary > of Paticcasamuppada --- It say exactly what I've been saying...that > "paticcasamuppada 'dependent origination' is the doctrine of the conditionality of all > physical and psychical phenomena..." Generally the first definition is > considered the leading aspect of the word being defined. > > I repeat ..." ALL PHYSICAL AND PSYCHICAL PHENOMENA" > ===== A persuasive argument, but I am still resisting :-) From previous experience, the best thing for me to do at this point is to put it "on the back burner". What I have found is that when I mull over a point in the background of my mind, conditions will arise which provide fresh insight. I may yet join you on the dark side :-) or, after reading Suttas and other texts, I may come back even more convinced than I was previously. Until we take up this topic again..... Metta, Rob M :-) Hi Rob M. That sounds like a good approach. Parting thoughts... Although I'm rusty, I believe virtually every Sutta is a lesson in DO. Yet, few comparatively deal specifically with the 12 fold chain. I believe the totality of conditional relations, a subject you have obviously studied in great depth, needs to be seen operating in all things we experience... Not so much each and every particular type of dependency, but the overall principle of DO in all things conditioned:-- and the impermanent, afflicting, and no-self qualities that "the DO dynamics" renders conditions to be. Talk to you later. TG 54412 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 0:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? jwromeijn Hallo Howard, Nina, Tep Thanks for your reactions and answers Howard; it was a creative pleasure to make my message of yesterday, thanks to your questions. I'm afraid this message is less creative. Howard: But some of the material in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, in some books more than others, is at the conventional level. That basket includes both. Joop: That's correct, I could better have said: the Abhidhammata Sangaha with explanatory guide of BB. =================================== Howard: It seems to me that you are assuming, or looking for, some sort of storage and content-transmission. But I view that as a substantialist perspective that is not what the Buddha taught. I see him as having taught, in this regard, mere conditionality. Joop: I meant 'storage' not literal; that could already have been deduced from my remark: how it is stored, in unknowable. I'm not a substantialist (though I don't have a definition of such kind of person). But I'm also not a reductionist: not only nama, also plays a role in how a human being functions. I know the expression "conditionality", but without more exact explanation how this works, it's magic to me. =================================== Nina, when you agree with Howards's remarks (and you agreed with all he has written), how can you combine his "I don't accept the storage premiss to begin with" with what you explaining again and again about "accumulations"? =================================== Howard: Concepts, as I view them, are our (non-arahant) means of grasping relations among dhammas. And without awareness of relations, the picture is radically incomplete. Joop: As I understood it "relations" ("conditions" is the term most time used) are part of the Abhidhamma. "Concepts" is something else as "relations"; my question was if you think that "concepts" can be remembered after rebirth. My general opinions about "concepts" (such as the concept "atta") is that they should not be taken serious, not in this life and not after rebirth. Tep, I react to your message 54401 seperately. Metta Joop 54413 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 robmoult Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > Is school still in? > > > In a response to Phillip earlier, Nina stated: > > "We] know that there is citta, otherwise nothing in the world would > appear." > > How exactly is this statement to be properly understood? > ===== Citta is pure awareness or consciousness. Citta can also be defined as a process of being aware of an object (citta is an activity), that which is aware of an object (citta is an agent) and the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object (citta is an instrument). From this definition, we can see that if citta did not exist, there would be no awareness. Do not limit the word "appear" in Nina's sentence to visual objects; without citta, there would be no awareness of any sense (including mind sense). I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 54414 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 1:05am Subject: New File Uploaded! robmoult Hi All, Tomorrow, I start my sixth year of teaching a weekly Abhidhamma class. In 2001 & 2002, I distributed notes each week (typically cut and paste from Internet downloads and e-books). In 2003, I complied all of these notes into a "Class Notes" and used that as the text for the year. In 2004, I went back to distributing notes each week, except that were mainly written by me. In 2005, I compiled all of these notes into a second "Class Notes" and used that as the text for the year. These class notes are available for upload in the files section under the name "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile". A number of DSG members, Htoo and Phil in particular, helped improve these notes through detailed review. Well, it is now 2006 and I am back to distributing notes each week (actually, it will be much less frequently than weekly, depending on how long it takes to go through each handout). I have just uploaded the first installment in the Files section ("Rob M Introduction"). The introduction is about six pages long (twelve half-pages, which is the format that I printed it in). I welcome feedback and comments from all DSG members. This year, I am going to structure my course according to the Abhidhammatthasangaha. Given my past track record, no bonus points for guessing what is going to happen during my class in 2007 :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54415 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 1:48am Subject: Re: pilgrimage India, Alone with Dhamma, no 1. gazita2002 dear Nina, thank you so much for this timely post. Today was one of those really dreadful days at work, totally too busy, not enuff nurses to do the job blah, blah, blah. Came home from work feeling really despondent and read this...... yes, 'we' are alone, just citta, cetasika, rupa. despite the tensions at work, I believe knowing this sooo helps. To be friendly towards people who are very stressed, certainly improves the situation. Of course, its not so easy when I am the stressed one! however, that's life, and it does help me to read a post like this. thank you, thank you Nina Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Alone with Dhamma > > Pilgrimage in India, October 2005. > > Chapter 1 > > Alone with Dhamma > > ³We live alone in the world², this was one of the striking points Acharn > Sujin explained to us during our pilgrimage in India with hundred and twenty > Dhamma-friends from Thailand and elsewhere. > ****** > Nina. > 54416 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 2:31am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course -duration of rupa. gazita2002 Hello Nina, Hello Scott, I have another rupa question. I understand rupa lasts for 17 moments of citta. Does the arising of, say, cakkhu-vinnana need to co-incide with the arising of the rupa that is eye base for that citta? maybe it doesn't matter as only one citta, in that process, arises at the eye base I've been thinking about this for a while, so this is a good time to ask. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Scott, > ... > > -------- > > N: We cannot count seventeen moments, it is too fast. Moreoever, > there is no > > purpose to it. Counting will not lead to detachment from nama and rupa. > > So long as we take nama and rupa together, as a whole, we cling to > the idea > > of self. > > The explanation about the duration of rupa teaches us that a sense > object is > > experienced by a process of cittas which have different functions > while they > > experience that object. The experience of visible object is not one long > > lasting moment. We may believe that we are still seeing while in reality > > akusala cittas have arisen already. Gradually it can be understood > that the > > characteristic of seeing is different from the characteristic of > attachment. > > Nina. > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you. That is the heart of it. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > 54417 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 2:31am Subject: In praise of SN 35 ( was Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) philofillet Hi Scott, and all Scott > I really do have this deep sense that this is > something that totally fits in ways I can't quite comprehend. Too wax > somewhat histrionic (while meaning it), I find the Abhidhamma to be > quite beautiful. I had and still do have that feeling, and of course when we think something is beautiful there's bound to be a lot of attachment tied up in it. So be it. Better I think Abhidhamma is beautiful rather than thinking Angeline Jolie is beautiful. Oh hell, I still think she's beautiful! And she adopts children so she's got character too!!!! Have you studied the salayatana samyutta of the Samyutta Nikaya? (SN 35) These roughly 200 suttas devoted to the sense bases get at the rawest, barest experience, capturing the essence of the aspects of Abhidhamma that we *can* experience in daily life. We can learn about the bhavanga cittas, for example, but know that while theoretically possible, the possibility of our coming to know them in this lifetime is next to naught. But in the suttas of the salayatana samyutta, we reflect again and again how eye base and visible object arise to condition seeing consciousness, how ear base and sound arise to condition hearing. We all see, we all hear, but we mistakenly think we understand them, take them as obvious. Abhidhamma and the suttas of SN 35 beautifully lay out how complex it is, how momentary, how anatta. Today on the train (I live in Japan) I saw an advertising poster urging people to go to some region in the north. The Kanji characters used in the copy said, I translate literally, "let's return to the bed of wisdom", though that doesn't quite capture the meaning of bed/floor/birthplace that are all tied up in that character. I nearly grabbed the businessman next to me and shouted YES!!! because it was just what I had wanted to say to this group before I went to work. Simplify! Simplify! That's what Thoreau said. We all see, but we don't understand seeing. We all hear. We all taste. We all touch. At least, we think we do. We don't see how every moment of experience through the sense doors is arising due to conditions. But we can come to experience this directly, I feel confident of that tonight. Of course, now there is lobha about that, and too much wanting to do it, but I feel much better about this than I did about the lobha that was all about being a better person, a more loving-kind man etc..... Anyways, I strongly recommend SN 35 to accompany your Abhidhamma study. Of course the Buddha taught realities in many different ways. Some people respond more strongly to khandas, some to dhatus, some to D.O. I, sir, am an ayatanas man! Phil 54418 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 2:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: ---------------- Charles D wrote: Where does ignorance originate? May be we should go back to Feelings. g) Feelings give rise to ... My point is as follows. If DO is strictly the 12 links, and the 12- links are whole (complete) truth, then even Arhants having any one link would have them all. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Arahats do not have avijjaa and tanhaa. It is wrong to say the cylcle is still rotating in arahats. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Now you also said, the cycle stops for arahats because there are no clinging and ignorance; therefore no bridges between clinging and feeling, or between ignorance and rebirth. This tells me that the 12 links are not hard-fast fixed links. This was the main point of my previous post. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is interesting. Let's see arahats' cases again. Arahats have 'naama-ruupa'. Naamaa-ruupa --> sa.laayatana --> phasso --> vedanaa Here they do not have tanhaa. So the link is cut up. Because of this breakage there is no upadaana or clinging. There is no bhavo that would otherwise arise from clinging even though they do have their current bhavo. Because of absence of future bhavo there is no further jaati or birth. This is why arahatta magga naana stop 'birth, ageing, and death'. Arahats do have their current life. But that bhava is not the result of arahatta magga and not the result after arahatta magga naana arises. As there is no jaati or birth there is no ageing and death. This is THE GOAL of all Buddhists. Let us see another link. Arahats do have bhavo or existence. But this bhavo is the result of previous life clingings. Because of this bhavao they do have to be reborn into this final life. And this is jaati. But this is final jaati or birth. As arahats did have jaati they have to face with ageing/death. Jaati has already passed. But ageing and mara.na are coming. But when they come there do not arise avijjaa as in case of puthujana. So the cycle stops at death. Ageing becomes vipaaka of those arahats and this is unavoidable even in case of The Buddha, our Master. Arahats in this life are beings. These beings were born. They were born because of past sankhaara. When they were born they have vinnaana. The same applies as in case of naama-ruupa. As not all 12 links are there it is wrong to say D.O is still there is Arahats. Some people do say that D.O continue to rotate with remaining links. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54419 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 1:58am Subject: Empty of What ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: All is Empty of any Self, Ego, I, Me, & Identical Identity! Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world ... In what way, Venerable Sir, is it, that this world is Empty ??? It is, Ananda, because it is empty of a self & of what belongs to a self, that it is said, Empty is the world... And what is it, which is empty of any self and of what belongs to a self? The eye is empty of any self. All forms are empty of any self. Visual consciousness is empty of any self. Eye-contact is empty of any self. Whatever feeling arised caused by eye-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to a self... The ear is empty of any self. All sounds are empty of any self. Auditory consciousness is empty of any self. Ear-contact is empty of any self. Whatever feeling arised caused by ear-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to a self... The nose is empty of any self. All smells are empty of any self. Olfactory consciousness is empty of any self. Nose-contact is empty of any self. Whatever feeling arised caused by nose-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to a self... The tongue is empty of any self. All flavours are empty of any self. Gustatory consciousness is empty of any self. Tongue-contact is empty of any self. Whatever feeling arised caused by tongue-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to a self... The body is empty of any self. All touches are empty of any self. Tactile consciousness is empty of any self. Body-contact is empty of any self. Whatever feeling arised caused by body-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to a self... The mind is empty of any self. All thoughts are empty of any self. Mental consciousness is empty of any self. Mental-contact is empty of self. Whatever feeling arised caused by all mental-contact, that too is empty of self, and of what belongs to a self... It is, Ananda, because all this is empty of any self & of what belongs to a self, that it is said: Empty is the world... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54420 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 3:33am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 614 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding dhammaanupassanaa there are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 04 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) ----- ++108 contemplations on dhamma 104 dhamma contemplations have been discussed. There are 4 contemplations left. They are saccaanupassanaa or 4 contemplations on Noble Truth. Contemplations on Noble Truths (saccaanupassanaa) 1. 12 contemplations on 'dukkha saccaa' or 'suffering the truth' 2. 30 contemplations on 'samudaya sacca' or 'cause the truth' 3. 30 contemplations on 'nirodha sacca' or 'cessation the truth' 4. 27 contemplations on 'magga sacca' or 'Path the truth' ----- +++99 contemplations on Noble Truth or saccaanupassanaa 1. 12 contemplations on dukkha sacca or 'suffering the truth' 1. this is jati (birth) & it is suffering 2. this is jaraa(ageing)& it is suffering 3. this is mara.na(death)& it is suffering 4. this is soka (sorrow)& it is suffering 5. this is parideva(lamentation)& it is suffering 6. this is dukkha (physical pain)& it is suffering 7. this is domanassa(mental displeasure)& it is suffering 8. this is upayaasaa(despair)& it is suffering 9. this is appiyehi-sampayogo(association with dislike)& suffering 10.this is piyehi-vippayogo(dissociation with the like)& suffering 11.this is yampiccham-na-labhati(non-achievement of wanting)& suff. 12.this is pancupadaanakkhandhaa(5-clinging aggregates)& suffering 2. 30 contemplations on samudaya sacca or 'the truth of the cause of the suffering' There are 10 causes in oneself. Sometimes 10 causes in others' selves are perceived as dhamma (cause or samudaya). And sometimes 10 causes in both oneself & others' selves are perceived or contemplated. So there are 30 contemplations on causes. Basically there are 10 causes. These 10 causes are kaama-tanha [sensuous desire], bhava-tanha [desire for existence], vibhava-tanha [desire for non-existence] that arise at 1. ajjhatta ayatana or internal sense-base 1. cakkh-ayatana (eye) 2. sota-ayatana (ear) 3. ghana-ayatana (nose) 4. jivha-ayatana (tongue) 5. kaaya-ayatana (body) 6. mana-ayatana (mind) 2. bahiddha ayatana or external sense-base 1. rupa-ayatana (visual sense-base) 2. sadda-ayatana (sound) 3. gandha-ayatana (smell) 4. rasa-ayatana(taste) 5. photthabba-ayatana (touch-sense) 6. dhamma-ayatana (mind-object). 3. panca-vi~n~naa.na cittas and mano-vi~n~naa.na cittas 1. cakkhu-vinnaana citta or eye-sense-consciousness 2. sota-vinnaana citta or ear-sense-consciousness 3. ghana-vinnaana citta or nose-sense-consciousness 4. jivha-vinnaana citta or tongue-sense-consciousness 5. kaaya-vinnaana citta or body-sense-consciousness 6. mano-vinnaana citta or mind-sense-consciousness 4. sa.laasamphassa or 6 contacts 1. cakkhu-samphassa or eye-contact 2. sota-samphassa or ear-contact 3. ghaana-samphassa or nose-contact 4. jivha-samphassa or tongue-contact 5. kaaya-samphassa or body-contact 6. mano-samphassa or mind-contact 5. sa.laasamphassajaa vedanaa or 'contact-born feeling' 1. cakkhu-samphassajaa vedana or eye-contact-born feeling 2. sota-samphassajaa vedana or ear-contact-born feeling 3. ghaana-samphassajaa vedanaa or nose-contact-born feeling 4. jivhaa-samphassajaa vedanaa or tongue-contact-born feeling 5. kaaya-samphassajaa vedana or body-contact-born feeling 6. mano-samphassajaa vedanaa or mind-contact-born feeling 6. sa.laasannaa or 6 perceptions 1. rupa-sannaa or visual perception 2. sadda-sannaa or auditory perception 3. gandha-sanna or olfactory perception 4. rasa-sanna or gustatory perception 5. photthabba-sanna or tactile perception 6. dhamma-sannaa or thought perception 7. sa.laasancetanaa or 6 volitions/ 6 formations 1. rupa-sa~n-cetana or visual volition 2. sadda-sa~n-cetana or auditory volition 3. gandha-sa~n-cetana or olfactory volition 4. rasa-sa~n-cetana or gustatory volition 5. photthabba-sa~n-cetanaa or tactile volition 6. dhamma-sa~n-cetana or mind-object volition 8. sa.laatanhaa or 6 tanhaa or 6 craving 1. ruupa-tanhaa or craving at visual object 2. sadda-tanhaa or craving at auditory object 3. gandha-tanhaa or craving at olfactory object 4. rasa-tanhaa or craving at gustatory object 5. photthabba-tanha or craving at tactile object 6. dhamma-tanhaa or craving at mind-object 9. sa.laavitakka or 6 vitakka or 6 initial-thinking (induction) 1. rupa-vitakka or initial-thinking of visual-object 2. sadda-vitakka or initial-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vitakka or initial-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vitakka or initial-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vitakka or initial-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vitakka or initial-thinking of mind-object 10. sa.laavicaara or 6 vicaara or 6 sustained-thinking (maintenance) 1. rupa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of visual object 2. sadda-vicaara or sustained-thinking of auditory-object 3. gandha-vicaara or sustained-thinking of olfactory-object 4. rasa-vicaara or sustained-thinking of gustatory-object 5. photthabba-vicaara or sustained-thinking of tactile-object 6. dhamma-vicaara or sustained-thinking of mind-object. Tanha arises at these 10 areas. There are 3 kinds of tanha and they are kaama-tanha or craving for lust, bhava-tanha or craving for existence, and vibhava-tanha or craving for non-existence. These 3 tanhas arise in relation to these 10 places. They are 'cause the truth' or samudaya sacca and they are nothing more than that. They are just dhamma and not a self or atta. 3. 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth' Again 10 contemplations are on self, 10 are on others and another 10 are on 'both self and others' selves'. So there are 30 contemplations on nirodha sacca or 'cessation the truth'. Suffering arise because of craving arising at 10 places. And at these 10 places, all suffering cease to arise as there is no craving at these 10 places (for arahats). 4. 27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 4. 3 contemplations on right action 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration ----- ++27 contemplations on magga sacca or 'Path the truth' 1. 4 contemplations on right view 1. the knowledge of suffering 2. the knowledge of cause of suffering 3. the knowledge of cessation of suffering 4. the knowledge of Path leading to cessation of suffering 2. 3 contemplations on right thinking 1. thinking non-lust or nekkhamma-sankappa 2. thinking non-aversion or abyaapaada-sankappa 3. thinking non-torture or avihimsa-sankappa 3. 4 contemplations on right speech 1. not telling lie or 'musaa-vadaa veramani' 2. not telling divisive speech or 'pisuna-vaacaa veramani' 3. not telling harsh speech or 'pharussa-vaacaa veramani' 4. not telling non-sense speech or 'samphappalaapa veramani' 4. 3 contemplations on right action 1. not killing or 'paanaatipataa veramani' 2. not stealing or 'adinnaadaanaa veramani' 3. not abusing lust or 'kaamesu-micchaacaara veramani' 5. 1 contemplation on right livelihood 1. avoidance of miccha-ajiiva or wrong-livelihood (living of ariyas) 6. 4 contemplations on right effort 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala 7. 4 contemplations on right mindfulness 1. mindfulness contemplating on body 2. mindfulness contemplating on feeling 3. mindfulness contemplating on consciousness 4. mindfulness contemplating on dhamma 8. 4 contemplations on right concentration 1. 1st jhaana concentration (concentration freeing hindrances) 2. 2nd jhaana concentration 3. 3rd jhaana concentration 4. 4th jhaana concentration ( & all aruupa jhaana concentration) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54421 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 3:51am Subject: Effort to burn defilements htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are four right effort. They are 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala This effort helps at satipa.t.thaana or vipassanaa. When one tries to practise vipassanaa at sometimes he or she becomes less interested in practising. The effort becomes loosen. To save the effort the above 4 contemplations are worthy to contemplate. When vipassanaa is doing in real sense there is no reason for akusala to arise. This is true when one is seeing naama or ruupa and understand the nature of these dhamma there is no akusala. So when effort to do vipassanaa is there 'unarisen akusala' are prevented. The second effort is 'the effort to abloish already arisen akusala'. This is also true. In this samsaraa there have been many akusala. There is no akusala that we might not have committed. All these akusala that have already arisen become ka.tattaa kamma and they can give rise to rebirth. But because of this 2nd effort when vipassanaa is continued up to the level of arising of sotapatti magga then 'all the arisen akusala that can give rise to rebirth in lower realms' are abolished. If arahatta magga naana arises then all arisen akusala kamma that may give rise to rebirth are abolished. So this effort is also powerful. The 3rd effort is the effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala. These kusala are magga kusala. If there is no such effort magga kusala will not arise at all. This third effort is also very important for the practitioner. The 4th effort is the effort to proliferate already arisen kusala. In this samsaraa there are also many kusala that we have done in our past. At least there are kusala in this very life. When we are doing vipassanaa then new and new kusala add to the existing kusala. We do need aataapii, burning viiriya to burn all defilements. Loose practice will not burn all defilements. To burn all the defilements formal meditation is needed. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 54422 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. TYPO Are reincarnation real ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: ... Typo in 54412 I wrote (to Howard and Nina): I'm not a substantialist … But I'm also not a reductionist: not only nama, also plays a role in how a human being functions. And had the intention to write: I'm not a substantialist … But I'm also not a reductionist: not only nama, also rupa plays a role in how a human being functions. Joop 54423 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:31am Subject: Never enough about knowing nama from rupa, eh? ( was Atta -sa~n~na philofillet Hi Nina >The beginning step in the right > direction is realizing by insight the distinction between nama and rupa. > Some people think that everybody knows that nama that experiences is > different from rupa that does not experience. But this is not insight. Ph: I had to hear it a few hundred times until it clicked that it is not so obvious as we might think, knowing nama from rupa. There is lobha now and the for the arising of that first vipassanna-nana, but fortunately I don't think about it too much. If I do, or try to have it, of course it will be a lost cause. There will only be the accumulation of more lobha and moha. But by listening and reflecting and studying present realities (and now I am getting to understand a bit better that "study" is sikkha, akin to training, akin to forming new habits that can condition the arising of sati and panna. They > have to be known as a dhamma, that is, as not a person, not a thing that > exists. And also insight that knows is not a person but a conditioned > element. Ph: All realities are conditioned, all are anatta. If we think that there is something that can be done to have sati *here and now*, we are on the wrong path. Sati *is* here and now, but not if we want it or try to have it. Patience. > -------- > N: The floods, ogha, is a group of defilements classified as: the floods of > sensuality, becoming, wrong view and ignorance. Ph: I see the Cetasikas corner is on these many kinds of defilements. I tried to re-read the chapter, about floods and fetters and cankers but I felt lost in concepts. At another time, it will click. As you know, I have come to understand that our experience is absolutely drenched in the defilements, and eradicating them is the point of Dhamma (see SN 35:74) so it is not that I am not interested in defilements. Just for some reason all the categories don't click with me at this point. Why do we need to study "floods" and "fetters" and so on when we can just talk about cittas accompanied by various akusala cetasikas? The latter seems much more paramattha, much more direct. I know that this is just pointing at different aspects of akusala, to deepen our understanding. I'll give the chapter another try on another day. > N: Ruupas such as visible object, sound etc. are gross, whereas naama is > more subtle. > --------- > > Ph: Do you think this point can help us in any way to distinguish the > > characteristics of nama from those of rupa? > ------- > N: Colour and sound can be immediately experienced through eyeas and ears. > But the citta that experiences them is more subtle, it is concealed. We know > that there is citta, otherwise nothing in the world could appear. But citta > is not immediately known. The sense objects are known through the > sense-doors and the mind-door, nama is known only through the mind- door. > Nama only becomes apparent when the first stage of insight arises. Then it > is understood what nama is, different from rupa. Ph: So this is what is meant by the sense door covers the mind door? There is so much sense door experience going on and sati and panna are not developed enough to experience the mind door? (To me, it seems that thinking is what covers the sense door - for example, we think we are seeing, but we are not actually seeing visible object, almost always - always in my case.) The first vipassana-nana (stage of insight) is when the mind door is first known? And by this we mean that nama is known? Sorry, I know I've asked you about this before. I won't be here again until Wednesday, so please take your time! :) > -------- > > Ph: Another question. This from Pilgrimage to Sri Lanka: "First the > > specfic characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of nama and rupa should be > > known more clearly. Nama should be known as nama and rupa as rupa. When > > panna is more developed, the "general characterstics" of nama and rupa > > can be realized, that is, the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha > > and anatta." > ... Do these specific characteristics include other > > details such as the subtle vs. gross above? > ------ > N: There are different kinds of rupa and different kinds of nama and each > dhamma has its specific characteristic that appears. Not only one kind of > rupa, such as hardness, has to be known but several other kinds. The same > with nama. Many different kinds of citta, feelings, cetasikas such as dosa, > lobha, generosity, have to be known so that paññaa can develop and the three > characteristics can eventually be clearly realized. Ph: I was wondering more about characteristics of nama, just nama, rather than different namas - and rupa, just rupa. If you know what I mean. It's hard to explain...for example, is it that nama is in itself subtle. Or is it that all the individual namas are subtle.. Thanks in advance, Nina. Phil 54424 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 615 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread is talking on magga saccaa or 'the truth of Path leading to the cessation of the suffering'. The Path consists of eight parts or eight limbs. So far up to seven limbs have been discussed. These are sammaa-ditthi or right-view, sammaa-sankappa or right thinking, sammaa-vaacaa or right-speech, sammaa-kammanta or right action, sammaa-aajiiva or right livelihood, sammaa-vaayama or right effort, sammaa-sati or right mindfulness. The last limb is sammaa- samaadhi or right concentration. The Buddha preached in 'Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta' like this. 'Katamo ca bhikkhave sammaa samaadhi? ------------------- 'Which, Monks, is right concentration? ------------------- Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kaamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi [upacaara samaadhi] ----------------------------- In this dispensation of mine, Monks, the monk is free of unwholesome dhamma, free of vatthu-kaama and free of kilesa-kaama. [* vatthu-kaama are sensuous objects and kilesa-kaama are lobha cetasika and allied akusala dhamma.] ------------------------------- saviitakka.m savicaara.m vivekaja.m piiti sukha.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. [1st ruupa jhaana] -------------- along with vitakka or initial application, vicaara or sustained application, piiti or rapture, sukha or happiness or pleasure reaches the first material absorption and stays there and dwell with 1st ruupa jhaana. -------------- Vitakka vicaaraana.m vuupasamaa ajjhatta.m sampasaadana.m cetaso ekodibhaava.m aviitakka.m avicaara.m samaadhija.m piiti sukha.m dutiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. [2nd ruupa jhaana] ------------------------------------ Because of absence of initial application and sustained application and cleansing internal tranquility rapture and pleasure are with a singlity and reaches the 2nd jhaana and dwell there. ------------------------------------ Piitiyaa ca viraagaa upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajaano sukha.m ca kaayena pa.tisamvedeti ya.m ta.m ariyaa aacikkhanti upekkhaako satimaa sukha vihaarii'ti tatiya.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. [3rd ruupa jhaana] ------------- Rapture is voided and body is with pleasure and such individual who feels pleasure and dwell in such state is praised by the Buddha and the wise. The monk reaches the 3rd jhaana and dwell there. ------------- Sukhassa ca pahaanaa dukkhassa ca pahaanaa pubbeva somanassa domanassaana.m attha`ngamaa adukkhamasukha.m upekkhaasati parisuddhi.m catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharati. [4th ruupa jhaana & all 4 aruupa jhaana which also have 4th ruupa jhaana quality] Aya.m vuccati bhikkhave sammaa-samaadhi. --------------- Pleasure is voided, displeasure is voided, earlier mental pleasure and mental displeasure are overcome and pure state of non-pleasure- non-displeasure equanimity is reached and the monk reaches the 4th ruupa jhaana. This can be called as sammaa-samaadhi. --------------- May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54425 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 1/7/06 1:11:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I am particularly remembering you and your wife, your son and his > wife and the little one, and holding you all in my heart during > practice of the Brahma Viharas. May you all be well and happy, may > you all be healthy and strong, may you all be happy of heart and > mind, may you all live with ease and well-being. I also remember > you all and hold you in my heart each day when I am in the Special > Care Nursery at the hospital, and am well-wishing the little ones > there also. > > metta > Chris > ============================ Thanks so much, Chris. I feel your love and compassion, and I also feel the lovingkindness of all the others who wrote and the many others who silently held wonderful thoughts of healing and welfare. It is so much appreciated. We haven't heard yet today from my son and daughter-in-law, but based on what we heard last night, it may well be that the current crisis is over and hat our granddaughter will return home from the hospital with her mom, who stayed there with her, some time this afternoon. I will write later on. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54426 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 6, 2006 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 1/7/06 3:45:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Joop: As I understood it "relations" ("conditions" is the term most > time used) are part of the Abhidhamma. > "Concepts" is something else as "relations"; my question was if you > think that "concepts" can be remembered after rebirth. > > ====================== Yes, I do believe so. (That of course merely tells you something about what I happen to believe is true, and not what is true! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54427 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:53am Subject: Re: pilgrimage India, Alone with Dhamma, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina and all > Acharn Sujin said that we live alone in the world, that we believe that > there are many people around us, but that this is thinking. It is hard to > accept this truth. Ph: To paraphrase Tom from one of the talks, it seems to me easy to accept it, or believe it intellectually, and be comforted by it in a shallow way, but to really understand it, to know directly that there are only nama and rupa - this seems so very far away. I tend to think that no matter how much understanding I develop in the years to come, when it comes down to parting from Naomi, all the understanding I have accumulated will all vanish and I'll be left clinging painfully to a person who seems ever so real to me. But the understanding will still be accumulated and carried on to future lives, so if the natural accumulated tendency to cling to people has its day, so be it. It is just one kind of accumulated tendency. Panna is also accumulating. And as A. Sujin said when you talked about the "cold shower" of hearing that our loved ones are just nama and rupa - "it's the truth, it's the truth....nobody can change the Buddha's word." The truth is the truth. Phil 54428 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 5:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 616 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread already went over on realities of consciousness or citta, realities of cetasikas or mental factors or mental associates or mental accompaniments, realities of material phenomena that is all 28 material phenomena, and reality of nibbana, which is absolute peace. Different classifications on citta have been extensively discussed. Feeling or vedanaa, root-dhamma or hetu dhamma, objects or arammanas, functions/kicca of citta, places or stations where cittas works, base or vatthu have all been explained. After that Dhamma Thread went into discussion of procession of consciousness or viithi vaara. In viithi or 'procession of citta' 5- door-procession and mind-door-procession were explained. Regarding mind-door-procession there are sensuous procession or kaama viithi and absorptive procession or appanaa viithi. Appanaa viithi or absorptive processions are explained under the following heading. 1. jhaana javana vaara viithi 2. magga javana vaara viithi 3. abhi~n~naa javana vaara viithi 4. jhaana samaapatti viithi vaara 5. phala samaapatti viithi vaara 6. nirodha samaapatti viithi vaara After viithi, planes of existences and life spans of different beings were discussed. Pannatti is also explained to some details. Lastly different stocks of dhamma are grouped and explained one after another. The last was general stock of dhamma. They are panca-kkhandhaa, pancupadaana-kkhandhaa, aayatana, dhaatu, and saccaa. Recent posts are on magga saccaa and the last post was about sammaa-samaadhi of Noble Eightfold Path. Coming posts are the relations between different dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54429 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 5:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts philofillet Hi Howard (and Rob M Hope everything turns out all right, Howard. My thoughts are with your granddaughter, and family, for the moment, at least. Maybe I'll reflect more deeply during my bath, and who knows, metta may arise. > Thank you so much for this wonderful post of yours. As in the past, > you show your goodness so clearly! How true. I don't believe, personally, that kusala can arise in such a timely way, when it is wanted or needed (to me, this seems contrary to the anatta sutta) but I appreciate the way Rob often shares his more abundant kusala, lets it shine. My personal favourite is when he told us about how his wife didn't kill an ant that bit her, something like that. And when he served ice cream to the monks. Phil 54430 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 1/7/06 8:27:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Rob M > > Hope everything turns out all right, Howard. My thoughts are with > your granddaughter, and family, -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Phil. :-) ------------------------------------------------- for the moment, at least. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! --------------------------------------------- Maybe I'll > > reflect more deeply during my bath, and who knows, metta may arise. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's pretty funny, Phil! :-) You have an "interesting" self-evaluation, I think. BTW, your lead sentence tells me all I need to know, my friend. :-) ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54431 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts sarahprocter... Dear Howard (& Rita), --- upasaka@... wrote: > matters > have vastly improved! So, we are hopeful. :-) ... S: I'm so glad to read of this improvement. Little Sophie has been in my thoughts too and I also wish her well and your family the strength and equanimity you need at this time, in addition to the abundant metta and compassion you obviously all show her. I was reflecting on the following: “On one occasion the Venerable Saariputta was dwelling on Magadha, in the village Naalaka. On that occasion, Saama.n.dakaani, a wandering ascetic, approached him and asked: ‘What friend Saariputta, is happiness, and what is suffering?’ ‘To be reborn, friend, is suffering; not to be reborn is happiness’.” (AN 10s, 198, Bodhi transl) ***** Thank you, Howard, for giving everyone the opportunity to reflect wisely and share their loving thoughts with you. With much metta to you, Rita and all your family, Sarah ======= 54432 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for Healing Thoughts nilovg Hi Howard, Lodewijk's and my thoughts are with you and your family. I discussed the matter with him early morning before going for our walk. Lodewijk spoke the following words: Please, don't bother to answer this post, you have enough to do at the moment. all our best wishes to you and to your family, Nina. op 06-01-2006 21:16 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Our younger granddaughter, now one month old, > has been taken to the hospital. My wife and I, and our son and his wife are > very worried about the little one. She is the sweetest angel imaginable, but > not > well. 54433 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Citta is pure awareness or consciousness. Citta can also be defined > as a process of being aware of an object (citta is an activity), that > which is aware of an object (citta is an agent) and the means by > which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object (citta > is an instrument). > > From this definition, we can see that if citta did not exist, there > would be no awareness. > > Do not limit the word "appear" in Nina's sentence to visual objects; > without citta, there would be no awareness of any sense (including > mind sense). > > I hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Dear Rob, Thank you very much. In The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomenon, near the end of chapter three, it was stated that, "[i]n the ultimate sense life exists only in one moment, the present moment . . . [l]ife is actually one moment of experiencing an object." It is tempting to consider this "pure awareness" which is citta and which ultimately is the only moment of life as having a status it probably doesn't have - that of being or existing in and of "its self." I find this confusing. The conventions of linguistic usage, especially in the phrase "that which is aware of an object (citta as agent)," as well as where I read over and over how cittas "do" this and that ("citta as activity"), seem to reify citta in a direction indicative of being some sort of intangible entity in and of itself. That this is not the case is, I think, the way to see it. I mean I do have the most minimal grasp of the intellectual notion of anatta. I have a hard time nevertheless with this tendency toward reification. Is awareness synonymous with citta? Does citta arise out of awareness? Does awareness arise out of citta? Is citta a factor of awareness? Sincerely, Scott. 54434 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 6:52am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 2. During our pilgrimage we visited the holy places where the Buddha was born, attained enlightenment, preached his first sermon, and passed finally away. It was a long and difficult journey, but, as a monk in Kusinåra said, it was our confidence in the Buddha¹s teachings that brought us to these places with the purpose to pay respect to him. When we were in Lumbini Acharn Sujin reminded us that the teachings are declining and will eventually disappear. Then nobody will know anymore the meaning of the holy places. Now we still have the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha at these places, and it is as if we pay respect at his feet. The Buddha fulfilled all the perfections and after dwelling in the Tusita Heaven he became a human being and was born in Lumbini. That was his last life. In Bodhgaya he became a Sammåsambuddha in order to help the world to become free from dukkha. Khun Sujin helped us to have more understanding of the dhamma appearing at the present moment, because without such understanding we only speculate about the truth. Her energy to speak extensively on the Dhamma was truly amazing and it showed her concern for us. She exhorted us to develop understanding, no matter whether the circumstances were disturbing, no matter whether we were sick or tired. She would repeatedly say: ³develop understanding now.² During our journey we also visited different Thai monasteries where we offered robes and other requisites. The Abbot of the Thai temple in Nalanda expressed his appreciation of Acharn Sujin¹s Dhamma talks to which he listened regularly. In the Thai temple of Kusinåra the Abbot gave Acharn Sujin a blessing and said that he had listened to her for forty years, since the time he was a monk in the temple of Mahå-dhåtu in Bangkok. During the rainy season he listened for one and a half hour in the morning, and also after the rainy season he listened regularly. He said: ²How could we understand the Dhamma without Acharn Sujin, where would we be without her.² We rejoiced in his appreciation of Acharn Sujin's efforts to explain the Dhamma. This monastery also has a Dispensary where many people from the province are coming. It is supported by devoted volunteers. While we were in Sarnath, the place of the Buddha¹s first sermon, we were given the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha¹s relics which are kept in a ten meter deep cellar. A monk had to descend into it to fetch them. Since Lodewijk just had his eightieth birthday, Acharn Sujin had asked us to carry the relics in turn towards the altar, and Lodewijk also carried them back to the shrine at the end of the ceremony. **** Nina 54435 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 6:52am Subject: One citta (Was:... Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Joop (and Howard) - > ... Hallo Tep The discusion between Howard and you is another one than the discussion between Howard and me and another one than the discussion between you and me; all three started with the same theme. This with you is about the "one citta"; I did not expect this, it's another theme to me and not a theme with which I feel very at ease. Tep: What is your purpose for combining the 'cuti citta' and 'patisandhi citta' into one citta? Why not assuming that there is ONE citta from the very beginning (many, many, many lives ago)? "All Buddhas and all beings in the world are nothing but the single citta. Outside this single citta nothing at all exists. The single citta, free from the conventional self, is something that was not made and is something, which cannot be destroyed." ---- The Citta Is Buddha Joop: Why not? Because this part of my life I'm working with the Abhidhamma-theory as explained in the Abhidhammata sanghada with guidnotes of Bhikhu Bhodhi. I don't know if this theory is really correct (one never knows) but it works very well for me. Joop: This morning I have been reading "THE CITTA IS BUDDHA" at the Dhammasala-website. It did not resonate very strong to me; it gives me the same emotion as a theistic essay is giving me. I only understand a small part of it, it's the first time I read it (vague memories that there was a DSG-discussion about it half a year or longer ago but I did not participate in that discussion) What I don't know now is: is there according this theory one continue single citta for every sentient being or is there only one citta on which all sentient being participate ? (perhaps this is in the system of 'The citta is Buddha' totally wrong formulated) Tep: Based on the "single citta" principle, the "flow" of all kamma resultants from one life to the next would be a permanent phenomenon that remains the same, until there is an action that produces a change in the flow. But such a statement would be contradicting to the anatta principle the Buddha taught!! Joop: Yes, that's also my idea, but it's an argument against the single citta theory, so why do you use it? Another question, from my frame of reference: is kamma "stored" (apology for this word) IN the single citta or outside it? Metta Joop 54436 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 8:29am Subject: Re: One citta (Was:... Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - Please allow me to respond only to your two questions below. > > > >Tep: > >Based on the "single citta" principle, the "flow" of all kamma > > resultants from one life to the next would be a permanent phenomenon that remains the same, until there is an action that produces a change in the flow. But such a statement would be contradicting to the anatta principle the Buddha taught!! > > > Joop: Yes, that's also my idea, but it's an argument against the > single citta theory, so why do you use it? > > Another question, from my frame of reference: is kamma "stored" > (apology for this word) IN the single citta or outside it? > Tep: The single-citta idea was originated in your own message # 54001: > > > Joop: > What is it that continues in rebirth-linking according the > Abhidhamma. What I have understood the continuity is ONE citta > together with many cetesikas. The one citta: death consciousness > (cuti) of the dying being = rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) of >the new born. And the cetasikas (even the in the life accumulated > cetasikas) accompany that one citta in the rebirth-transition ... Tep: Perhaps you did not mean "one and only citta" like that in the article "Citta Is Buddha". But the lumping cuti with patisandhi may be extended to every life since the very beginning. If you do so and you'd get the same "model" as given in the article. Concerning the second question you asked, I think the confusion about "storing" or "storage" versus "accumulation" needs be sorted out first. Howard has refused to discuss this issue and Nina has flatly rejected storage as totally wrong. The article "Citta Is Buddha" maybe the only source that can give an answer you are searching for. Have you found an answer in it? If you read it more slowly you should find at least some clues. Regards, Tep ======== > Hallo Tep > > The discusion between Howard and you is another one than the > discussion between Howard and me and another one than the discussion > between you and me; all three started with the same theme. > This with you is about the "one citta"; I did not expect this, it's > another theme to me and not a theme with which I feel very at ease. > > > Tep: What is your purpose for combining the 'cuti citta' > and 'patisandhi citta' into one citta? Why not assuming that there is > ONE citta from the very beginning (many, many, many lives ago)? > "All Buddhas and all beings in the world are nothing but the single > citta. Outside this single citta nothing at all exists. The single > citta, free from the conventional self, is something that was not > made and is something, which cannot be destroyed." > ---- The Citta Is Buddha > (snipped) 54437 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah and Nina & Lodewijk - _________________ Dear Howard (& Rita), --- upasaka@... wrote: > matters > have vastly improved! So, we are hopeful. :-) ... S: I'm so glad to read of this improvement. Little Sophie has been in my thoughts too and I also wish her well and your family the strength and equanimity you need at this time, in addition to the abundant metta and compassion you obviously all show her. I was reflecting on the following: “On one occasion the Venerable Saariputta was dwelling on Magadha, in the village Naalaka. On that occasion, Saama.n.dakaani, a wandering ascetic, approached him and asked: ‘What friend Saariputta, is happiness, and what is suffering?’ ‘To be reborn, friend, is suffering; not to be reborn is happiness’.â€? (AN 10s, 198, Bodhi transl) ***** Thank you, Howard, for giving everyone the opportunity to reflect wisely and share their loving thoughts with you. With much metta to you, Rita and all your family, Sarah ____________________ Hi Howard, Lodewijk's and my thoughts are with you and your family. I discussed the matter with him early morning before going for our walk. Lodewijk spoke the following words: Please, don't bother to answer this post, you have enough to do at the moment. all our best wishes to you and to your family, Nina. ========================== Thank you all so very much. It seems that matters have improved and that this crisis may be over. I'll be more certain by later in the day. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54438 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One citta (Was:... Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Joop) - In a message dated 1/7/06 11:32:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Concerning the second question you asked, I think the confusion > about "storing" or "storage" versus "accumulation" needs be sorted > out first. Howard has refused to discuss this issue and Nina has flatly > rejected storage as totally wrong. > > ====================== LOL! Boy that Howard's sure stubborn! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54439 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 - > > >THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS > > There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical > > phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience > > anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible > > object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. > > What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. > <...> > > > ======= More Abhidhamma School Are the lakkhana rupas known as upacaya (integration) and santati (continuity) considered to be paramattha dhmammas? They seem to be more like dynamic functions. Are they "second order" rupas? How are they not concepts? Or how are they to be understood? > Thanks for your consideration. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > 54440 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 10:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: One citta (Was:... Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (Joop and Nina) - I like your humor ! > > Hi, Tep (and Joop) - > > In a message dated 1/7/06 11:32:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > Concerning the second question you asked, I think the confusion > > about "storing" or "storage" versus "accumulation" needs be sorted > > out first. Howard has refused to discuss this issue and Nina has > > flatly rejected storage as totally wrong. > > > > > ====================== > LOL! Boy that Howard's sure stubborn! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard > Tep: Persistency is also a sign of leadership, because it denotes self- confidence. {:->)} Regards, Tep ========== 54441 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 mlnease Hi Scott, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Duncan" To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:18 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 > The conventions of linguistic usage, especially in the phrase "that > which is aware of an object (citta as agent)," as well as where I read > over and over how cittas "do" this and that ("citta as activity"), > seem to reify citta in a direction indicative of being some sort of > intangible entity in and of itself. > > That this is not the case is, I think, the way to see it. I mean I do > have the most minimal grasp of the intellectual notion of anatta. I > have a hard time nevertheless with this tendency toward reification. > Is awareness synonymous with citta? Yes--depending somewhat on context-- > Does citta arise out of > awareness? No, though citta can condition subsequent cittas (among many other conditions)-- > Does awareness arise out of citta? As above-- > Is citta a factor of awareness? No--citta is always accompanied by factors (cetasikas) but is not a factor itself, but rather the (mental) basis on which the factors depend (for the briefest of instants, of course. This is not well-articulated I know, but is the gist of it as I understand it). Others have complained here that abhidhamma 'reifies'. I've never studied whatever subject (philosophy? linguistics?) in which this expression is used, so I looked it up in the Merriam Webster dictionary, which gives: "to regard (something abstract) as a material or concrete thing". If this is the sense in which you mean 'reify', do you mean that consciousness or awareness is abstract, and that abhidhamma takes it as 'material or concrete'? Also, (and if so), by 'abstract' would you mean 'conceptual'? If not, could you explain what you mean by 'reify'? Thanks, mike 54442 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 11:34am Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo (and all) - Although "exertion" is a synonym for "effort" in some dictionaries, I like exertion better because it means "vigorous use of energy and strenuous effort" [See Macmillan Dictionary, 1984]. Another meaningful meaning of exertion is "act or process of putting forth or into action". Hence "right exertion" is the right action that is done with vigorous use of energy and strenuous effort. And what are the four right exertions? MN 44 : Visakha: "Now what is concentration, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?" Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." [endquote] Tep: The word "right" that precedes "exertions" might come from "samma" in the Pali text, because samma-vayamo and samma- sati (known as the four frames of references in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations) are requisites for samma-samadhi. And what are the four right exertions? The "four exertions" are defined in AN IV.14 as follows. "There are these four exertions. Which four? The exertion to guard, the exertion to abandon, the exertion to develop, & the exertion to maintain. Tep: So the four right exertions correspond to the four right efforts given in your post, Htoo. But, they are not the same : "And what is the exertion to guard? There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, doesn't grasp at any theme or variations by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. [Similarly with the ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.] This is called the exertion to guard. "And what is the exertion to abandon? There is the case where a monk doesn't acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen [in him]. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence. He doesn't acquiesce to a thought of ill will... a thought of harmfulness... any evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen [in him]. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, wipes them out of existence. This is called the exertion to abandon. "And what is the exertion to develop? There is the case where a monk develops the mindfulness factor for awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the investigation of qualities factor for awakening... the persistence factor for awakening... the rapture factor for awakening... the serenity factor for awakening... the concentration factor for awakening... the equanimity factor for awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. This is called the exertion to develop. "And what is the exertion to maintain? There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain. "These are the four exertions. [AN IV.14 ] ............................................ Tep: My question to you ( and to all of us ) is : Are these four right exertions at higher level than the "four right efforts", which is a factor of the Path? In other words, do the four right exertions give the monk greater fruits, greater benefits than the four right efforts? Why (or why not)? Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are four right effort. They are > > 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising > 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala > 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala > 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala > (snipped) > > We do need aataapii, burning viiriya to burn all defilements. Loose > practice will not burn all defilements. To burn all the defilements > formal meditation is needed. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 54443 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Duncan" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:18 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 > > > > > > > Others have complained here that abhidhamma 'reifies'. I've never studied > whatever subject (philosophy? linguistics?) in which this expression is > used, so I looked it up in the Merriam Webster dictionary, which gives: "to > regard (something abstract) as a material or concrete thing". > > If this is the sense in which you mean 'reify', do you mean that > consciousness or awareness is abstract, and that abhidhamma takes it as > 'material or concrete'? Also, (and if so), by 'abstract' would you mean > 'conceptual'? If not, could you explain what you mean by 'reify'? > > Thanks, > > mike > > Dear Mike, Yes, "reify" means to make (something abstract) more concrete or real. I don't mean that Abhidhamma teaches that citta is abstract; as far as I know citta is considered to be an ultimate reality. I think I do equate "abstract" more or less with "conceptual." In this context I'm talking about the way of speaking about citta which goes, "citta experiences something . . ." To "reify" citta is to start thinking of citta as being a tiny moment of being that is "a being", of having all the attributes of self one is striving not to see in "ourselves." In a paper entitled, "The Dhamma Theory," Karunadasa discussed the two aspects of citta mentioned above in the thread - citta can be "that which thinks," or "that through which one thinks" - and adds a third, namely citta is "the mere act of thinking itself." This he calls the "definition by nature," (bhava-sadana). He notes that this latter is an ultimate way of defining citta. Now, I may have answered my own question in trying to clarify for you but, not trusting myself, I'll leave it this for now. Sincerely, Scott. 54444 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 0:01pm Subject: Re: One citta (Was:... Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Joop - > > Please allow me to respond only to your two questions below. > ... Hallo Tep, Nina I have understood that the use of the term 'storage' by me did give misunderstandings; in fact I do mean the same as the term "accumulation", meaning 'more and more and more heaped, stacked, piled' (according my dictionary) or whatever term is used. So I replace the term 'storage' in my messages of this thread with 'accumulation' as Nina uses several times and has many occurences in U.P. In Nyatiloka's dictionary: áyúhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhára; s. paticca-samuppáda), being the bases of future rebirth. " 'Accumulation', is a name for the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetaná) which arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma-bhava, s. Vis.M. XVII, IX, X). Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive- moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of advertence (ávajjana, s. viññána-kicca), these are called the karma- formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma- process (kamma-bhava).... Or, each volition is called 'karma-process' and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma-formation'. " (Vis.M. XVII). Cf. paticca-samuppáda (2, 10) - (App.). Tep: Perhaps you did not mean "one and only citta" like that in the article "Citta Is Buddha". But the lumping cuti with patisandhi may be extended to every life since the very beginning. If you do so and you'd get the same "model" as given in the article. Joop: I simply use the Abhidhamma-model in which a citta arises and passes away within a split second; (only one citta existing at one moment in one sentient being). And as I understand the rebirth- linking, then there is one citta that arises in the dying person and immediate after it passes away it is followed (and conditions) the arising of a citta in the new life. That something total different as the one citta of "Citta is Buddha" I'm sorry for you, but the article don't give me any positive vibration. Metta Joop > > > > > >Tep: > > >Based on the "single citta" principle, the "flow" of all kamma > > > resultants from one life to the next would be a permanent > phenomenon that remains the same, until there is an action that > produces a change in the flow. But such a statement would be > contradicting to the anatta principle the Buddha taught!! > > > > > Joop: Yes, that's also my idea, but it's an argument against the > > single citta theory, so why do you use it? > > > > Another question, from my frame of reference: is kamma "stored" > > (apology for this word) IN the single citta or outside it? > > > > Tep: > > The single-citta idea was originated in your own message # 54001: > > > > > Joop: > > What is it that continues in rebirth-linking according the > > Abhidhamma. What I have understood the continuity is ONE citta > > together with many cetesikas. The one citta: death consciousness > > (cuti) of the dying being = rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) of > >the new born. And the cetasikas (even the in the life accumulated > > cetasikas) accompany that one citta in the rebirth-transition ... > > Tep: Perhaps you did not mean "one and only citta" like that in the > article "Citta Is Buddha". But the lumping cuti with patisandhi may be > extended to every life since the very beginning. If you do so and you'd > get the same "model" as given in the article. > > Concerning the second question you asked, I think the confusion > about "storing" or "storage" versus "accumulation" needs be sorted > out first. Howard has refused to discuss this issue and Nina has flatly > rejected storage as totally wrong. The article "Citta Is Buddha" maybe > the only source that can give an answer you are searching for. Have > you found an answer in it? If you read it more slowly you should find at > least some clues. > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ======== > > > Hallo Tep > > > > The discusion between Howard and you is another one than the > > discussion between Howard and me and another one than the > discussion > > between you and me; all three started with the same theme. > > This with you is about the "one citta"; I did not expect this, it's > > another theme to me and not a theme with which I feel very at ease. > > > > > > Tep: What is your purpose for combining the 'cuti citta' > > and 'patisandhi citta' into one citta? Why not assuming that there is > > ONE citta from the very beginning (many, many, many lives ago)? > > "All Buddhas and all beings in the world are nothing but the single > > citta. Outside this single citta nothing at all exists. The single > > citta, free from the conventional self, is something that was not > > made and is something, which cannot be destroyed." > > ---- The Citta Is Buddha > > > (snipped) > 54445 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] In praise of SN 35 ( was Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) nilovg Hi Phil, I had a discussion about this subject with Lodewijk during our walk. We were talking about Kh. Sujin's discussion with Eric, which was received here in dsg by different people who had different reactions. Very interesting, this shows our different accumulations. We are different from the first moment of life. Eric was explaining about the temple he had visited, his teacher, the Dalai Lama who had been there. Then Kh Sujin stressed to him: you have to develop your own understanding. This has a deep meaning. I noticed the concern and sense of urgency in her voice. Perhaps Eric would come only once in a lifetime, and have no opportunity to hear what she wanted to explain. One may listen to many teachers, but one has to develop understanding oneself. I said to Lodewijk that Kh. Sujin's pointing to seeing now, visible object now may irritate some people. He said that this used to irritate him, but that he now sees the importance of this. Yes, it is so obvious, right at hand. We all hear. We all taste. We all touch. We read in the suttas about all these realities, but reading and reflecting is not as clear as direct understanding of what is right at hand. Nina. op 07-01-2006 11:31 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > We all see, but we > don't understand seeing. We all hear. We all taste. We all touch. At > least, we think we do. We don't see how every moment of experience > through the sense doors is arising due to conditions. But we can come > to experience this directly, 54446 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 1:38pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Tep's quote: "And what is the exertion to maintain? There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain. "These are the four exertions. [AN IV.14 ] ............................................ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have great great difficulty to grasp when 'Dhamma is written in pure English'. Because I learn along with Paa.li. Here are what I do not know. 1. skeletal perception 2. worm-eaten perception 3. livid perception 4. festering perception 5. falling aprt perception 6. bloated perception What is 'maintain' in connection with four right exertion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Tep: My question to you ( and to all of us ) is : Are these four right exertions at higher level than the "four right efforts", which is a factor of the Path? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: In other words, do the four right exertions give the monk greater fruits, greater benefits than the four right efforts? Why (or why not)? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Warm regards, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Is there something which is not sammaa-vaayama but which is exertion? With regards, Htoo 54447 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 2:02pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 617 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are dhamma that run their course on their own accord. They bear their own characteristics. These dhamma are higher dhamma. They are paramattha dhamma. They are 'ultimate realities'. Ultimate realities are consciousness (citta), mental factors or mental associates or mental accompaniments (cetasika), material phenomena or material or matters (ruupa), and absolute peace (nibbana). Citta does not arise without cetasikas. Cetasikas cannot arise without citta. There are ruupa that always always co-arise with citta and cetasikas. Nibbana as naama-dhamma at particular time serves as object for citta and cetasikas. When this happens the citta that arise is called lokuttaraa citta. Because the object or aarammana is beyond worldly things (kaama-loka, ruupa-loka, aruupa-loka). These paramattha dhamma or ultimate realities do not arise singly and when arise they are interrelated and interconnected each other in one way or another or even other ways. There are dhamma that show 'conditional relations' between different kinds of dhamma. These dhamma are called 'paccaya dhamma'. They support dhamma in one way or another. There are two different types of 'PACCAYA'. One method that shows the conditional relation is 'pa.ticca samuppaada dhamma'. This is also known as 'Dependent Co-arising' in its Paa.li name. But it is also known as Dependent Origination. Uppaada means 'arising' and not 'origination'. Another method that shows 'conditional relations between different dhamma is called 'Pa.t.thaana Dhamma'. When 616 messages are digested the coming posts will easily be understood. But at any stage I may re-include some explanation whenever necessary. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54448 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 4:47pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I felt like an unfortunate kid who eagerly raised his hand and asked his teacher a few questions, and instead of getting some answers, he got several questions back! Of course, the kid might be confused and decided not to ask any question anymore. :-)) So please let me take back the question. I'll try to find an answer myself. And if I ever find it, I might come back with another post. Meanwhile, anyone who has answers to Htoo's questions please be welcome to step in. Thanks. :-) Warm regards, Tep ========= > Htoo: > > Here are what I do not know. > > 1. skeletal perception > 2. worm-eaten perception > 3. livid perception > 4. festering perception > 5. falling aprt perception > 6. bloated perception > > What is 'maintain' in connection with four right exertion? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep wrote: > > Tep: My question to you ( and to all of us ) is : > > Are these four right exertions at higher level than the "four right > efforts", which is a factor of the Path? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not know. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep wrote: > > In other words, > > do the four right exertions give the monk greater fruits, greater > benefits than the four right efforts? Why (or why not)? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I do not know. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Is there something which is not sammaa-vaayama but which is exertion? > 54449 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 5:08pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 philofillet Hi Scott and Mike and all > To "reify" citta is to start thinking of citta as being a tiny moment > of being that is "a being", of having all the attributes of self one > is striving not to see in "ourselves." This is something Howard has written about in the past, as though citta is seen as a "little agent" - or something like that. It stuck with me, and I can see what you mean. It's good to be reminded not to think of citta in those terms, not to reify citta. In one of the recorded talks, A. Sujin talks about "dark citta" or something, really gets at the essence of what citta is, experiencing, bare experiencing, and nothing else. I don't seem to be coming across that talk again, but if I do I will try to transcribe it here. It was helpful, momentarily - but now what I heard is all gone! :) Phil p.s similes that are used to explain citta and cetasikas can contribute to the reification you're talking about - literally. I think I have citta described as king, and the seven universal cetasikas as various members of his retinue. Of course these similes are to help us get a basic conceptual understanding, and they will be shed as understanding deepens ever so gradually. 54450 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Request for Healing Thoughts philofillet > Maybe I'll > > > reflect more deeply during my bath, and who knows, metta may arise. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's pretty funny, Phil! :-) Ph: There *was* metta in the bath! (Always a reflective time for me.) I hope there has been good news. Baths are interesting. I'll always remember how Larry said that when he was a child, he analyzed the nature of water, elements, or something like that when taking a bath. Me, I was blowing up imaginary ships made of shampoo bottle caps, using my fist! Or putting my ears under water and making pleasant bass guitar sounds. And we see that nothing has changed. I have all my dosa and lobha, Larry has his investigative mind! Life is interesting, eh? You have an "interesting" > self-evaluation, I think. BTW, your lead sentence tells me all I need to know, my friend. > :-) : -) back. > ======================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > Ph: I just appreciated this sign-off phrase of yours, not for the first time. I like the "flickering", "flash" and "fleeting." Sounds very momentary, very uncontrollable, very anatta! Phil 54451 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 7, 2006 5:19pm Subject: Re: One citta (Was:... Are reincarnation real ? Citta Is Buddha ! buddhistmedi... Hi, Joop - I am glad to read the clarification you have made about the terminology of accumulation. >Joop: > I'm sorry for you, but the article don't give me any positive > vibration. That article is not my favorite either, although LuangPu Dun (who gave the lecture that got transcribed and translated from Thai into English) is one of my (few) greatly revered monks of the this century. Thanks. Best wishes, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Joop - > > > > Please allow me to respond only to your two questions below. > > > ... > > Hallo Tep, Nina > > I have understood that the use of the term 'storage' by me did give > misunderstandings; in fact I do mean the same as the > term "accumulation", meaning 'more and more and more heaped, stacked, > piled' (according my dictionary) or whatever term is used. > So I replace the term 'storage' in my messages of this thread > with 'accumulation' as Nina uses several times and has many > occurences in U.P. > (snipped) > > Joop: I simply use the Abhidhamma-model in which a citta arises and > passes away within a split second; (only one citta existing at one > moment in one sentient being). And as I understand the rebirth- > linking, then there is one citta that arises in the dying person and > immediate after it passes away it is followed (and conditions) the > arising of a citta in the new life. That something total different as > the one citta of "Citta is Buddha" (snipped) 54452 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 robmoult Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Thank you very much. In The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomenon, > near the end of chapter three, it was stated that, > > "[i]n the ultimate sense life exists only in one moment, the present > moment . . . [l]ife is actually one moment of experiencing an object." > > It is tempting to consider this "pure awareness" which is citta and > which ultimately is the only moment of life as having a status it > probably doesn't have - that of being or existing in and of "its > self." I find this confusing. > ===== According to the Abhidhamma, citta (awareness) is one of the four types of "ultimate phenomena" (paramattha dhamma in Pali). The four paramattha dhamma are: - Citta (consciousness) - Cetasikas (mental factors which accompany citta) - Rupa (non-mental pheonomena) - Nibbana A paramattha dhamma has the following attributes: - It cannot be changed into another thing - It cannot be divided up into other things - It cannot be created or destroyed by man - It exists in nature - It holds onto its characterisitics until it perishes I am not really comfortable with your phrase "existing in and of itself" as it can easily lead to ontological discussions. Many people translate "paramattha dhammas" as "ultimate realities" and some people even wrap the subject in ontological arguments. In my opinion, the Buddha's teaching was about things conducive to the holy life and things leading to Nibbana. In my opinon, ontological discussions do not meet this criteria. ===== > The conventions of linguistic usage, especially in the phrase "that > which is aware of an object (citta as agent)," as well as where I read > over and over how cittas "do" this and that ("citta as activity"), > seem to reify citta in a direction indicative of being some sort of > intangible entity in and of itself. > > That this is not the case is, I think, the way to see it. I mean I do > have the most minimal grasp of the intellectual notion of anatta. I > have a hard time nevertheless with this tendency toward reification. > Is awareness synonymous with citta? [Rob M: Yes!] Does citta arise out of > awareness? [Rob M: No!] Does awareness arise out of citta? [Rob M: No!] Is citta a factor of > awareness? [Rob M: No!] ===== Our ancestors did not understand the world around them. Because they did not understand, they created external "Gods" that controlled the weather. These Gods could control the weather according to their whims and fancies. Today, we look back and smile at the naivete of our ancestors. Today, we understand that the weather operates according to impersonal laws of nature. Modern man does not understand the world within himself. Because we do not understand, we create an internal "God" called the "self" that controls the flow of our thoughts. We believe that this self can control the flow of our thoughts according to its whim and fancy. The Abhidhamma exposes this fallacy of this internal "God" as natural phenomena devoid of self and subject to natural conditions. Reading your post, I sense some confusion. Was there a decision process... "I think that I will choose to be confused now"? No, the confusion arose naturally. Tough to accept free will as a part-time phenomenon, isn't it? Does my message help or confuse further? Metta, Rob M :-) 54453 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 1:00am Subject: Without Wavering ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Seeing the momentary Arising and Ceasing induces Calm! Friend Sariputta, it is because I have seen, known and directly experienced the momentary arising & ceasing of the eye, eye-consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by eye-consciousness, that I indeed regard them all thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self... Furthermore: It is because I have seen, known & directly experienced the momentary arising & ceasing of the ear, ear-consciousness, & any phenomena recognizable by ear-consciousness, the nose, consciousness of the smelled, & any phenomena recognizable by such nose-consciousness, the tongue, tongue- consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by tongue-consciousness, the body, body-consciousness, and any phenomena recognizable by tactile body- consciousness, the mind, mental-consciousness, any phenomena recognizable by mental-consciousness, that I now indeed consider all these states thus: This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self... Then Venerable Mahacunda said to Venerable Channa: Then friend Channa, this teaching of the Buddha is to be given acute, constant & close attention: In any dependence, there is unstable wavering! In independence, there is no unstable wavering! When there is no wavering, then there is tranquillity. When there is tranquillity, there is no inclination, no bias, no bending, neither attraction nor any repulsion... When there is no such inclination, then there is neither any coming nor any going! When there is no coming & going, there is no passing away nor any being reborn... When there is neither passing away nor being reborn, then there is neither here, nor beyond, nor in between the two. This itself is the very End of all Suffering... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [59] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Channa: 87. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:23am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 3 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 3 Afterwards we offered Sangha Dåna to the monks. Lodewijk spoke the following words of thanksgiving to them: Venerable Monks, On behalf of this group of Thai and foreign pilgrims under the spiritual leadership of Acharn Sujin Borharnwanaket and the practical leadership of Mr. Suwat Chansuvithiyanant , I wish to thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dana and to pay you our deep respect. Your community of monks reminds us of the vital importance of the Sangha, the third of the Triple Gem, now and in the future. Last week, my wife Nina and I celebrated my eightieth birthday by paying respect to the place Kuru in New Delhi, where the Lord Buddha preached the Satipatthåna Sutta. Nina recited the text to me and I was, again, struck by the power of this Sutta and its significance for our daily life. This morning, I received the most precious birthday present one can wish for: the honour to carry the relics of the Lord Buddha. The two most important and happiest events in my life were marrying Nina and our encounter with Buddhism through the hands of Acharn Sujin who, ever since, has guided us on the Path and who, during this tour, tirelessly explained the Dhamma to us, wherever and whenever possible. Looking back on my life, I feel distressed by the amount of accumulated akusala committed in the past. I feel distressed by dukkha, by the burden of the five Khandhas of grasping, so well explained in the teachings: rúpa khandha, vedanå khandha (feeling), saññå khandha (remembrance), sankhåra khandha (mental formations) and viññåna khandha. I feel distressed by the destructive power of the five hindrances, so forcefully put forth in the teachings, which are: desire of sense pleasures, aversion, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor and doubt. And yet, I understand at least in theory, that regret of the past makes no sense, that there is no self in the past, and that it is understanding of the present moment that counts. And, in fact, I have every reason to be grateful. Every day, I am encouraged and inspired by Nina¹s tireless efforts to understand the Dhamma and to help others to understand it. I was inspired by the courage of Nina¹s father who recently passed away at the age of hundred and four and who, despite his incapacities of body and mind, never gave up and always looked towards the future. And above all, who should be distressed when he hears the voice of the Lord Buddha: ³Abandon evil, O monks. One can abandon evil, O monks. If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore, I say: Abandon evil!², and similarly on cultivating the good. On our long journey towards wisdom, we need the support and the inspiration of the Sangha and therefore, I urge you, venerable monks, to persevere in your task of preserving and propagating the teachings. We thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna and as a token of our thanks, I wish to present to you, Venerable Head Monk, Acharn Sujin¹s book, ³A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², translated from Thai by Nina and recently published in Bangkok. It is a masterful, all encompassing treatise on the Dhamma and I hope that it will be of use to your community. ****** Nina. 54455 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pilgrimage India, Alone with Dhamma, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, op 07-01-2006 13:53 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> Acharn Sujin said that we live alone in the world, that we believe > that >> there are many people around us, but that this is thinking. It is > hard to >> accept this truth. > > Ph: I tend to think that no matter how much understanding I develop in the years to come, when it comes down to parting from Naomi, all the understanding I have accumulated will all vanish and I'll be left clinging painfully to a person who seems ever so real to me. > > But the understanding will still be accumulated and carried on to > future lives, so if the natural accumulated tendency to cling to > people has its day, so be it. It is just one kind of accumulated > tendency. Panna is also accumulating. ------ N: I feel the same about parting from Lodewijk. But you gave the answer. Understanding cannot take away the pain. Only when one has become an anaagaamii, there is no more clinging to persons, to sense objects. This means also: no more sadness on account of these. So, we should know that there is sadness for us. At the moment of understanding dhammas the citta is kusala and there is no sadness. We should think of the suttas in Nidaanavagga (S.N. II) about the ocean of tears. ------ Ph: > And as A. Sujin said when you talked about the "cold shower" of > hearing that our loved ones are just nama and rupa - "it's the > truth, it's the truth....nobody can change the Buddha's word." The > truth is the truth. ----- N: We can see the value of knowing the truth. Even when the truth is bitter. It is useless to deceive ourselves and to live with delusion. Nina. 54456 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course -duration of rupa. nilovg Hi Azita, op 07-01-2006 11:31 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > I understand rupa lasts for 17 moments of citta. Does the arising > of, say, cakkhu-vinnana need to co-incide with the arising of the > rupa that is eye base for that citta? maybe it doesn't matter as > only one citta, in that process, arises at the eye base ------- N: Yes, that is the answer. Only seeing has the eyesense as physical base, vatthu, and the other cittas of thet process have the heartbase as physical base. Rupa is weak at its arising moment, and therefore, it can serve as base only after it has arisen. As to the heartbase, kamma produces this all the time throughout life. I am glad that 'Alone with Dhamma' helped you on a difficult day. True, when we have great stress it is hard to always remember that what we take for self are only conditioned citta, cetasika and rupa. When we experience an unpleasant object it seems that it lasts and we keep on thinking of it. In reality we are thinking of what has fallen away already. We cling to the khandhas of grasping and this conditions aversion and sadness when things are not as we would like them to be. Nina. 54457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 215 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 215. Intro: All conditioned dhammas have been classified as the five khandhas and as the five khandhas of clinging, that is, those that are objects of clinging. As Ven. Bodhi explains, the fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are khandhas which are Œuntainted and not subject to clinging¹. This can only be said of the naama-khandhas which are the lokuttara cittas and accompanying cetasikas. Ruupakkhandha cannot be lokuttara, it cannot be Œuntainted and not subject to clinging¹. However, ruupakkhandha has also been classified among the bare khandhas. In this section the reason has been explained. -------- Text Vis.: Now while there is feeling, etc., both free from cankers [and subject to them], not so materiality. --------- N: As we have seen, feeling that accompanies lokuttara citta is free from cankers, it cannot be an object of clinging. This cannot be said of ruupa. --------- Text Vis.: However, since materiality can be described as a [simple] aggregate in the sense of a total, it is therefore mentioned among the [simple] aggregates. ----- N: Rupakkhandha is also classified as a bare aggregate, as ruupakkhandha, because is is described as a mass (raasa). It is the collection of all ruupas: the four Great Elements and the derived ruupas. --------- Text Vis.: And since it can be described as an aggregate [that is the object] of clinging in the sense of a total and in the sense of being subjected to cankers, that [same materiality] is therefore mentioned among the aggregates [as objects] of clinging too. ------- N: Ruupakhandha is favorable to clinging it can be object of clinging and therefore, it is also classified as a khandha of grasping. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 277): ------- Text Vis.: But feeling, etc., are only mentioned among the [simple] aggregates when they are free from cankers. When they are subject to cankers, they are mentioned among the aggregates [as objects] of clinging. And here the meaning of the term 'aggregates as objects of clinging' should be regarded as this: aggregates that are the resort of clinging are aggregates of clinging. But here all these taken together are intended as aggregates. ------------------------------- N: The Tiika states that here, in the Visuddhimagga, all these dhammas taken together are classified as Œkhandhas¹ and also as Œkhandhas of grasping¹ (khandhaapi upaadaanakkhandhaapi). --------- Conclusion: We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, that in order to point out the sphere of insight, the aggregates of grasping, which are exclusively associated with the taints, are taught. We cling to the sense objects of visible object, sound, odour, flaour and tangible object. They are classified as ruupakkhandha and as ruupakkhandha of clinging. We cling to feelings, to saññaa, to the other cetasikas classified as formations, and to citta. All these dhammas are objects of clinging. We may cling without wrong view or with wrong view. The khandhas of grasping can be objects of insight so that first clinging with wrong view and eventually all other kinds of clinging will be eradicated. When we read about the khandhas of grasping we can be reminded to develop the way leading to the end of grasping. The khandhas we cling to appear now, all the time. ***** Nina. 54458 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Never enough about knowing nama from rupa, eh? ( was Atta -sa~n~na nilovg Hi Phil, op 07-01-2006 13:31 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Ph: I had to hear it a few hundred times until it clicked that it > is not so obvious as we might think, knowing nama from rupa. ------ N: It seems so obvious, but direct understanding of seeing now and hardness now can only be accomplished by insight that has been developed more. And as Kh. Sujin stresses, it has to be known by a dhamma that is not self as you also said. We are inclined to take understanding for self. ------- Ph: There > is lobha now for the arising of that first vipassanna-nana, > but fortunately I don't think about it too much. If I do, or try to > have it, of course it will be a lost cause. There will only be the > accumulation of more lobha and moha. But by listening and reflecting > and studying present realities (and now I am getting to understand a > bit better that "study" is sikkha, akin to training, akin to forming > new habits that can condition the arising of sati and panna. -------- N: well said. -------- Ph: >> N: The floods, ogha, is a group of defilements classified as: the > floods of >> sensuality, becoming, wrong view and ignorance. > > Ph: I see the Cetasikas corner is on these many kinds of > defilements. I tried to re-read the chapter, about floods and > fetters and cankers but I felt lost in concepts. At another time, it > will click. -------- N: It helps to wait and not study too many details. The classifications of groups of defilements have only one purpose: to instill a sense of urgency to develop understanding of the akusala that presents itself now. The Commentaries deal with many details, but the puirpose isalways the development of understanding. I find it valuable that Kh Sujin always asks: 'What is the purpose of our study?' --------- > Ph: So this is what is meant by the sense door covers the mind > door? There is so much sense door experience going on and sati and > panna are not developed enough to experience the mind door? (To me, > it seems that thinking is what covers the sense door - for example, > we think we are seeing, but we are not actually seeing visible > object, almost always - always in my case.) ------- N: No, thinking usually thinks about concepts. When we are dealing with insight the subject is paramattha dhammas. Sound is experienced by the cittas of the ear-door process, and after that by cittas of a mind-door process, and this is before there is thinking of concepts on account of the sound. When a stage of insight arises, nama and rupa are understood as they are in a mind-door process. Then it is known what a mind-door process is that experiences rupa through the mind-door, rupa, not a concept on account of rupa. --------- > Ph: I was wondering more about characteristics of nama, just nama, > rather than different namas - and rupa, just rupa. If you know what > I mean. It's hard to explain...for example, is it that nama is in > itself subtle. Or is it that all the individual namas are subtle.. ------ N: All namas are more subtle than rupas. But there is no need to think about this, it will be understood more clearly. There is not awareness of nama in a general sense or rupa in a general sense. Different namas and rupas present themselves and awareness can begin to be aware of them. Awareness of their characteristics, that is to say, not naming them hardness or rupa, not thinking about them. But hardness is appearing through the bodydoor, and visible object through the eyedoor, there is no confusion about them. Kh. Sujin explains that awareness becomes familiar with characteristics. As you said, it is a training, a forming of new habits. 54459 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 nilovg Dear Scott, op 07-01-2006 19:11 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Are the lakkhana rupas known as upacaya (integration) and santati > (continuity) considered to be paramattha dhmammas? They seem to be > more like dynamic functions. Are they "second order" rupas? How are > they not concepts? Or how are they to be understood? ------- N: They are included in the 28 rupas that are rupa paramattha dhammas. As you will read at the end of my Rupas, they can be classified as sabhava rupas, rupas with their own distinct nature, and asabhava rupas, rupas without a distinct nature. We could say: there are rupas that are concrete matter, and rupas that are qualities or characteristics inherent in rupas. You had another question: if there would not be citta nothing could appear. I lost my post to you. Again: If there were no citta, no visible object, no sound, nothing in this world could be experienced. This helps us to see that there must be citta that experiences. We used to think: I experience, but now we learn something new. It is worth reflecting on this and considering this, by beginning to be aware of sound that appears just now, and other sense objects appearing now. Nina. 54460 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? nilovg Hi Joop, op 07-01-2006 09:44 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Nina, when you agree with Howards's remarks (and you agreed with all > he has written), how can you combine his "I don't accept the storage > premiss to begin with" with what you explaining again and again > about "accumulations"? ------ N: No storage, there cannot be an additional citta that stores, and there cannot be anything lasting. That would be eternalism. One citta falls away, but it is succeeded by the following one. If there would be no connection between past and present there would be annihilation belief. The middle way has to be kept! If we only speak about the present life, I find it obvious that we are accumulating tendencies, new things we learn. We do not know our past life, but the Buddha explained about kamma of the past that can produce result in the form of rebirth and sense impressions in the course of life. How else could this occur if the force of kamma was not accumulated from citta to citta, from life to life. Not only kamma is accumulated, also good and bad tendencies. If we try to find out how the process of accumulation exactly operates, it is useless. It does not help us in the development of insight just now. Reincarnation is not the Buddha's teaching. There is not an eternal soul that takes a new body. Nina. 54461 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 3:02am Subject: Thank You All (Re: [d-l] Request for Healing Thoughts) upasaka_howard Hi, all - I'm happy to say that our granddaughter is back home from the hospital. We are so appreciative of the loving thoughts and words you have bestowed on her, her parents, and my wife and myself. It appears that the current "crisis," which amounted to her having had a rapid weight loss following a mediocre weight gain, a weight loss that brought her back to her birth weight, may be over. It turns out that it is "just" a matter of finding the proper combination of "nutrition-delivery system" (fancy term! ;-) and the proper mix of formula and breast milk and thickener to enable her to get sufficient food into her. This is not an uncommon "problem" for babies, but in our granddaughter's case, due to her birth defects, most especially her heart problem, it can be serious, as also any bad colds will be serious. Due to her problems, we are told that our granddaughter, Sophie Emma, will probably have to make hospital visits from time to time, at least until her open-heart surgery is done (hopefully not until at least three more months). And even after that, due to her other problems, that may still likely happen on occasion, though with far, far less frequency. So, unless there is a very threatening circumstance, I will not be notifying my email Buddhist friends of every "up" and "down". Please do, if you would, just keep Sophie in the back of your mind. (It couldn't hurt! ;-) My son has given us the go-ahead to tell folks the details of Sophie's problems. I will do so, by private email, to those of you who wish to know these details, but I don't want to broadcast them on email lists, for that would be a breach of privacy I believe. Again, I thank you all for your kind wishes and your enormously valued friendship. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54462 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 3:19am Subject: Just One Thing More upasaka_howard Hi again - I wasn't 100% correct in saying that our granddaughter's nutrition problem is <<"just" a matter of finding the proper combination of "nutrition-delivery system">> and so on. The doctors think that she probably also has gird (acid reflux), which interferes with her eating. But that is being addressed. (The medical support is terrific!) Now, no more! (Sorry.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54463 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Joop, > Hallo Nina Thanks. A part of what you wrote I already knew, but that will be nor suprise to you. The most important you explained was: "Not only kamma is accumulated, also good and bad tendencies." I assume: - "good and bad tendencies" is "anusaya" as explained by Nyatiloka (see below) - both kamma and "good and bad tendencies" are cetasikas My conlusions: - only accumulated cetasikas accompany the rebirth linking death consciousness (cuti)  rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) - no concepts (panatti) - for example the concept "atta" - accompany the rebirth linking You are right by saying "If we try to find out how the process of accumulation exactly operates, it is useless", but I think these conclusions still beling to the knowable. Is that correct? Metta Joop From Nyatiloka's dictonary ANUSAYA: the 7 'proclivities', inclinations, or tendencies are: sensuous greed (káma-rága, s. samyojana), grudge (patigha), speculative opinion (ditthi, q.v.), skeptical doubt (vicikicchá, q.v.), conceit (mána, q.v.), craving for continued existence (bhavarága), ignorance (avijjá, q.v.) (D. 33; A. VII, 11, 12). "These things are called 'proclivities' since, in consequence of their pertinacity, they ever and again tend to become the conditions for the arising of ever new sensuous greed, etc.'' (Vis.M. XXII, 60). Yam. VII, first determines in which beings such and such proclivities exist, and which proclivities, and with regard to what, and in which sphere of existence. Thereafter it gives an explanation concerning their overcoming, their penetration, etc. Cf. Guide VI (vii). According to Kath. several ancient Buddhist schools erroneously held the opinion that the anusayas, as such, meant merely latent, hence karmically neutral qualities, which however contradicts the Theraváda conception. Cf. Guide V, 88, 108, 139. 54464 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 Dear Rob, Thank you for the clarification. > According to the Abhidhamma, citta (awareness) is one of the four > types of "ultimate phenomena" (paramattha dhamma in Pali). The four > paramattha dhamma are: > - Citta (consciousness) > - Cetasikas (mental factors which accompany citta) > - Rupa (non-mental pheonomena) > - Nibbana > > A paramattha dhamma has the following attributes: > - It cannot be changed into another thing > - It cannot be divided up into other things > - It cannot be created or destroyed by man > - It exists in nature > - It holds onto its characterisitics until it perishes >Scott: I appreciate this short list. > I am not really comfortable with your phrase "existing in and of > itself" as it can easily lead to ontological discussions. Many people > translate "paramattha dhammas" as "ultimate realities" and some > people even wrap the subject in ontological arguments. In my opinion, > the Buddha's teaching was about things conducive to the holy life and > things leading to Nibbana. In my opinon, ontological discussions do > not meet this criteria. Scott: I agree. Ontological discussions are not relevant to a spiritual path. > > Is awareness synonymous with citta? [Rob M: Yes!] Scott: Thanks. > Reading your post, I sense some confusion. Was there a decision > process... "I think that I will choose to be confused now"? No, the > confusion arose naturally. Tough to accept free will as a part-time > phenomenon, isn't it? Scott: Yes, my confusion arose naturally (and it is falling away). Having come from a fundamentalist christian up-bringing I will gladly take "part-time free-will" any day! (Good one). But you're right, this is the way to see it: we are as free as we are in the realm where we have room to be free; acceptance of what is is a freedom as well. > Does my message help or confuse further? Scott: Very helpful. Thank you for discussing this with me. Sincerely, Scott. > 54465 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 10:39am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma course - Session 1 scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. Scott wondered: Are the lakkhana rupas known as upacaya (integration) and santati (continuity) considered to be paramattha dhmammas? They seem to be more like dynamic functions. Are they "second order" rupas? How are they not concepts? Or how are they to be understood? Nina wrote: They are included in the 28 rupas that are rupa paramattha dhammas. As you will read at the end of my Rupas, they can be classified as sabhava rupas, rupas with their own distinct nature, and asabhava rupas, rupas without a distinct nature. We could say: there are rupas that are concrete matter, and rupas that are qualities or characteristics inherent in rupas. Scott: The lakhana rupas are then rupas without a distinct nature, as in "concrete matter." They are "inherent in rupas." I'm sorry but this still seems to suggest that they are of a different order than rupa. It suggests that they are "in" other rupas; that they are qualities held by rupas. How can they be paramattha dhammas if they inhere in rupas? Perhaps it is because they are not further divisible. These rupas (lakhana) seem to correspond to some of the higher jhanas. Sorry, but I find this a bit difficult yet. Nina wrote: If there were no citta, no visible object, no sound, nothing in this world could be experienced. This helps us to see that there must be citta that experiences. We used to think: I experience, but now we learn something new. It is worth reflecting on this and considering this, by beginning to be aware of sound that appears just now, and other sense objects appearing now. Scott: Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. 54466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - qualities of rupa. nilovg Dear Scott, op 08-01-2006 19:39 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > > The lakhana rupas are then rupas without a distinct nature, as in > "concrete matter." They are "inherent in rupas." I'm sorry but this > still seems to suggest that they are of a different order than rupa. > It suggests that they are "in" other rupas; that they are qualities > held by rupas. How can they be paramattha dhammas if they inhere in > rupas? ------- N:They are still classified among the twentyeight kinds of rupas, thus, they are not paññatis. Another example is akaasa, space that surrounds the groups of ruupa. It is not a concept. Or speech intimation, a ruupa that is a change in the great elements and that is a condition for speech. Thus, also certain qualities of ruupas are still ruupa, not a concept. Many details are to be found in the beginning of Ch XIV, Visuddhimagga, rupakkhandha, but I doubt whether this is useful to you at this moment. Too many details may be confusing. ------- S: Perhaps it is because they are not further divisible. These > rupas (lakhana) seem to correspond to some of the higher jhanas. --------- N: I do not see any relation to jhana. Nina. 54467 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? nilovg Hi Joop, op 08-01-2006 18:17 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > I assume: > - "good and bad tendencies" is "anusaya" as explained by Nyatiloka > (see below) ------- N: Anusaya are the latent tendencies that are akusala, they are a certain group. asayanusaya are the good and bad tendencies, see Jon's post. -------- > J: My conlusions: > - only accumulated cetasikas accompany the rebirth linking death > consciousness (cuti)  rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) > - no concepts (panatti) - for example the concept "atta" - accompany > the rebirth linking ------ N: The dying-consciousness is simply the last citta of this life, it is not called relinking. Only the rebirth-consciousness is called by some relinking-consciousness. Citta can be accompanied only be cetasikas, not by concepts. They are not accompanied by accumulated cetasikas, I would not put it that way. The sobhana and akusala cetasikas that accompany citta arise because of conditions, then they fall away with the citta and are accumulated from citta to citta. Accumulations change, they are not static, because a new accumulation, good or bad is added. Accumulations lie dormant and can condition the arising of kusala or akusala at the present. ------- J: You are right by saying "If we try to find out how the process of > accumulation exactly operates, it is useless", but I think these > conclusions still beling to the knowable. Is that correct? ------ N: It can be understood intellectually that there are accumulations. But you refer to your conclusions, which I modified somewhat. Nina. 54468 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 0:32pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo - 1. skeletal perception > 2. worm-eaten perception > 3. livid perception > 4. festering perception > 5. falling aprt perception > 6. bloated perception ------------------------------- Dear Tep, I really do not know above 6 perception. They might have Paa.li equivalent. Vaayama sounds like 'exertion'. The load X has to be transferred from A to B place. The movement is supported by vaayama. So it sound like exertion. Exertion is more appropriate than effort here. Energy is abit less appropriate. Sammaa-vaayama is a thing. But in essence it is viiriya. Here viiriya is energy, effort rather than exertion. Sometimes translation does not give full essence of original one. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54469 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 1:04pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (618 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa, tesa.m hetu.m tathaagato aaha. Tesa~nca yo nirodho, eva.m vaadii mahasamano'ti.' This is the stanza that was said by Venerable Assaji, the 5th sotapanna who became an arahat along with other 4 sotapannas constituting a total of 5 arahatta saavaka or the first 5 arahatta disciples. As soon as this stanza was heard that is instantaneously at the end of the stanza one of two friends (Saariputta-to-be and Moggallaana- to-be) became a sotapanna. This stanza is just a summary of four Noble Truth and it is the most concise and compact words representing four Ariya Noble Truth. Ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa,.. Dhamma arises because of cause. tesa.m hetu.m.. that cause tathaagato.. The Buddha aaha.. preached. Tesa~nca yo nirodho,..those dhamma also have cessation. eva.m vaadii mahaasamano,.. such is the teachings of The Buddha. Dhamma (dukkha) has to arise because of the cause(samudaya / craving). The Master preaches that cause. Those dhamma also have the end or the cessation (nirodha). Such is the teachings( magga ) of The Buddha, Great Monk. Dhamma have to arise because of the causes and conditions. Dhamma are arising at any given time and they are falling away at any given time. The arising has the conditions and falling away also has the conditions. These conditional relationships are discovered by The Master even before His enlightenment, that is just before His Buddhahood. The Bodhisatta, 4 asancheyya and 100,000 kappas ago, was actually ready to transcend and attain arahatta magga naana. But for the sake of beings in 31 realms Bodhisatta decided to stay in the samsara in order to fulfil the perfections so that he may become a Sammaasambuddha. The year before He renounced in His final life He was revealed 4 different signs as reminders by deva beings. When a man of ageing shape, a man of infirm and a dead man was seen, Bodhisatta shocked. He understood that these are sufferings(dukkha). He started to think over how to overcome these sufferings. This is the start of discovery of conditional relationship (D.O). When He saw the 4th sign that is a shape of a monk, recluse He decided to renounce and to become a monk so that He could find out the solution to overcoming ageing, illness/infirmity and death. Bodhisatta's D.O started with ageing/death or jaraa/mara.na unlike the conventional scripture which starts with ignorance or avijjaa, May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54470 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 1:24pm Subject: Thank You All (Re: [d-l] Request for Healing Thoughts) buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I'm happy to say that our granddaughter is back home from the > hospital. We are so appreciative of the loving thoughts and words you have bestowed on > her, her parents, and my wife and myself. I am so glad to hear that little Sophie is better. She will continue to be in my thoughts. (I hope you will continue to ask for healing thoughts if something serious comes up again.) Metta, James 54471 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank You All (Re: [d-l] Request for Healing Thoughts) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/8/06 4:28:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, all - > > > > I'm happy to say that our granddaughter is back home from the > >hospital. We are so appreciative of the loving thoughts and words > you have bestowed on > >her, her parents, and my wife and myself. > > > I am so glad to hear that little Sophie is better. She will continue > to be in my thoughts. ----------------------------------- Thank you. :-) ----------------------------------- (I hope you will continue to ask for healing > > thoughts if something serious comes up again.) > ----------------------------------- Thanks, I will, but I'll have to use some judgement in that, because it will be a long haul. ----------------------------------- > Metta, > James > ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54472 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 9:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Hi Htoo Naing, I think your exposé proves my point: "If DO is strictly the 12-links and the 12-links are whole (complete) truth, then even Arhants having any one link would have them all." i.e., one link does not always give rise to another. Therefore, the 12-links are not hard-fast fixed links. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta <...> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Arahats do not have avijjaa and tanhaa. It is wrong to say the cylcle is still rotating in arahats. --------------------------------------------------------------------- <....> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is interesting. Let's see arahats' cases again. Arahats have 'naama-ruupa'. Naamaa-ruupa --> sa.laayatana --> phasso --> vedanaa Here they do not have tanhaa. So the link is cut up. Because of this breakage there is no upadaana or clinging. There is no bhavo that would otherwise arise from clinging even though they do have their current bhavo. Because of absence of future bhavo there is no further jaati or birth. This is why arahatta magga naana stop 'birth, ageing, and death'. Arahats do have their current life. But that bhava is not the result of arahatta magga and not the result after arahatta magga naana arises. As there is no jaati or birth there is no ageing and death. This is THE GOAL of all Buddhists. Let us see another link. Arahats do have bhavo or existence. But this bhavo is the result of previous life clingings. Because of this bhavao they do have to be reborn into this final life. And this is jaati. But this is final jaati or birth. As arahats did have jaati they have to face with ageing/death. Jaati has already passed. But ageing and mara.na are coming. But when they come there do not arise avijjaa as in case of puthujana. So the cycle stops at death. Ageing becomes vipaaka of those arahats and this is unavoidable even in case of The Buddha, our Master. Arahats in this life are beings. These beings were born. They were born because of past sankhaara. When they were born they have vinnaana. The same applies as in case of naama-ruupa. As not all 12 links are there it is wrong to say D.O is still there is Arahats. Some people do say that D.O continue to rotate with remaining links. <....> 54473 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 9:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Hi Rob M, I was taught that DO is the concept of "Dependant co-arising" meaning that one thing gives rise to another; & the 12-links is the concept of the "12-links in a chain of causation." The 12-links (i.e., 1 chain of causation) is a subset of DO. But then I understand you. What would you call the prospective TG and I are presenting? Causation? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of robmoult Sent: Saturday, 07 January, 2006 01:07 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Rob M > > Enjoying the comments! > ===== Me too! ===== > TG: I don't know how we can read the same dictionary and see it 100% > opposite! Read the first definition (first paragraph) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary > of Paticcasamuppada --- It say exactly what I've been saying...that > "paticcasamuppada 'dependent origination' is the doctrine of the conditionality of all > physical and psychical phenomena..." Generally the first definition is > considered the leading aspect of the word being defined. > > I repeat ..." ALL PHYSICAL AND PSYCHICAL PHENOMENA" > ===== A persuasive argument, but I am still resisting :-) From previous experience, the best thing for me to do at this point is to put it "on the back burner". What I have found is that when I mull over a point in the background of my mind, conditions will arise which provide fresh insight. I may yet join you on the dark side :-) or, after reading Suttas and other texts, I may come back even more convinced than I was previously. Until we take up this topic again..... Metta, Rob M :-) 54474 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) upasaka_howard Hi, Charles (and Htoo) - In a message dated 1/8/06 4:52:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I think your exposé proves my point: "If DO is strictly the 12-links and > the 12-links are whole (complete) truth, then even Arhants having any one > link would have them all." > > i.e., one link does not always give rise to another. Therefore, the 12-links > are not hard-fast fixed links. > > ======================= Exactly, Charles! I agree completely. Each link is a requisite condition for the next, but not a sufficient condition. In general, multiple requisite conditions are required for the arising of a dhamma, and should even one be missing, the remaining conditions lack sufficiency for that dhamma to occur. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54475 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 3:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I think your exposé proves my point: "If DO is strictly the 12- links and > the 12-links are whole (complete) truth, then even Arhants having any one > link would have them all." > > i.e., one link does not always give rise to another. Therefore, the 12-links > are not hard-fast fixed links. > > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Charles, It is the individual that speaks. It is not D.O that is not hard- fast fixed links. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54476 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 6:12pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo ( and other Pali enthusiasts) - Thanks for your reply. We can rewind the discussion back to the word "exertion". I have often found it useful to consult the index of the Visuddhimagga (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli) whenever I want to know the original Pali for an English translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I think the venerable Thanissaro used Bhikkhu Nanamoli's work as his guideline in most translations of the suttas. Luckily, here again I found a few useful explanations about "exertion" as follows. The venerable Nanamoli's index shows that the Pali for "exertion" is 'paggaha'. Vism. XX, 119: Exertion is energy. For well-exerted energy, neither too lax nor too strained, arises in him in association with insight. Vism. XXII, 45: 'How is it that understanding of emergence and turning away from both is knowledge of the path?' ' At the moment of stream-entry, right view in the sense of seeing (a) emerges from wrong view, and it emerges from defilements and from the aggregates that occur consequent upon that[wrong view], and (b) extrnally it emerges from all signs; hence it was said: Understanding of emergence and turning away from both is the knowledge of the path. Right thinking in the sense of directing emerges from wrong thinking ... ... Right effort in the sense of exerting emerges from wrong effort ... ' [quote from the Patisambhidamagga] Tep: So it seems to me that exertion alone is energy for emerging from wrong effort, and that exertion can be too much or too little. But only a "well-exerted energy" may lead to insight. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > > > > I really do not know above 6 perception. They might have Paa.li > equivalent. > > Vaayama sounds like 'exertion'. > > The load X has to be transferred from A to B place. The movement > is supported by vaayama. So it sound like exertion. Exertion is more > appropriate than effort here. Energy is abit less appropriate. > > Sammaa-vaayama is a thing. But in essence it is viiriya. Here > viiriya is energy, effort rather than exertion. > > Sometimes translation does not give full essence of original one. > 54477 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 6:25pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements kenhowardau Hi Htoo, I notice you are persevering with the conventional, non-Abhidhamma, interpretation of right effort. I hope you don't mind if I repeat my usual disagreements - even if it is just to stop lurking and get back into posting mode. :-) ----------------- . . . H: > This effort helps at satipa.t.thaana or vipassanaa. ----------------- I agree it helps right understanding (and the other right cetasikas) in a moment of vipassana. However, for reasons best known to yourself, you want us to believe it *precedes* vipassana. Even though the Buddha taught right effort was a *part of* path-consciousness, you want us to believe it is some kind of preparatory step. ---------------------------------------------- H: > When one tries to practise vipassanaa at sometimes he or she becomes less interested in practising. ---------------------------------------------- Losing interest would be the least of his or her problems. I would say, "When one tries to practise vipassana, one makes an effort to disprove the Buddha's teaching!" According to the Dhamma, vipassana is a moment of conditioned consciousness: it occurs when the right conditions are in place, not when some imaginary being tries to make it occur. It might be inflammatory to talk about an "effort to disprove the Buddha's teaching" so let me put it another way: What would motivate a person to *try* to practise vipassana? Surely he would have to be thinking, "What about me? I want to get enlightened too!" And wouldn't that kind of thinking indicate craving, conceit and wrong view? ------------------------------------------------------------- H: > The effort becomes loosen. To save the effort the above 4 contemplations are worthy to contemplate. ------------------------------------------------------------- It they are contemplated wrongly there will be more conditions for wrong practice, and there will be more wrong effort aimed at controlling paramattha dhammas. However, if we contemplate the four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole, there will be more understanding of conditioned dhammas. -------------------------------- H: > We do need aataapii, burning viiriya to burn all defilements. Loose practice will not burn all defilements. To burn all the defilements formal meditation is needed. -------------------------------- So you keep saying, but that is not what the Buddha taught. Right effort is a fleeting, conditioned, paramattha dhamma that arises in the same citta as its forerunner, right understanding. The right effort you are describing is something very different. You are describing an imaginary course of action carried out by imaginary beings. If I may say so; that kind of practice is best left to other (non-Buddhist) teachings. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are four right effort. They are > > 1. effort to prevent unarisen akusala from arising > 2. effort to abolish already arisen akusala > 3. effort to develop arising of unarisen kusala > 4. effort to proliferate already arisen kusala > > 54478 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 6:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 215 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, It seems to me that objects don't cause clinging. Ignorance causes clinging. Therefore, I would say the 5 khandhas _not_ subject to clinging are khandhas experienced as paramattha dhammas (by wisdom). And the 5 khandhas that _are_ subject to clinging are khandhas experienced as compact wholes (by ignorance). Ignorance ignores paramattha dhammas and the result is clinging. It is impossible to cling to a paramattha dhamma. It seems very strange to me to say the category "5 khandhas" is either 4 nama khandhas, all lokuttara, or else a combination of 5 khandhas subject to clinging and 4 khandhas not subject to clinging, all lokuttara. The latter being actually 9 khandhas and the former only 4 khandhas. The only way to come up with 5 using the lokuttara angle is to include nibbana, but the Buddha doesn't do that. Larry 54479 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 6:34pm Subject: Vism.XIV,216 Vism.XIV,217 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 216. 3. 'As to neither less no more': but why are five aggregates, neither less nor more, mentioned by the Blessed One? (a) Because all formed things that resemble each other fall into these groups, (b) because that is the widest limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self, and (c) because of the inclusion80 by them of the other sorts of aggregates. ---------------------- Note 80. Avarodha--'inclusion': not in P.T.S. Dict. The term etaparama--'the widest limit' is not mentioned in P.T.S. Dict. See M.i,80,339; S.v,119; MA.iii,281. Cf. also ataavaparama, M.i,246. 217. (a) When the numerous categories of formed states are grouped together according to similarity,81 materiality forms one aggregate through being grouped together according to similarity consisting in materiality; feeling forms one aggregate through being grouped together according to similarity consisting in feeling; and so with perception and the other two. So they are stated as five because similar formed things fall into groups. ------------------------ Note 81. 'When all formed dhammas are grouped together according to similarity, they naturally fall into five categories. Herein, it is the items that are the same owing to the sameness consisting respectively in "molesting", etc., that are to be understood as "similar". Among them, those that are strong in the volition whose nature is accumulating with the function of forming the formed, are called the formations aggregate. And the others, that is, contact, etc., which are devoid of the distinguishing characteristics of "being molested", etc., may also be so regarded under the generality of forming the formed. But the similarities consisting in touching are not describable separately by the word "aggregate", and so that is why no aggregates of contact, etc.,have been stated by the Perfect One who knows the similarities of dhammas. "Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins there are who are asserters of eternity and declare the self and the world to be eternal, all do so depending and relying on these same five aggregates or on one or other of them" (cf. S.iii,46), and so on' (Pm.503). **************************** 216. anuunaadhikatoti kasmaa pana bhagavataa pa~nceva khandhaa vuttaa anuunaa anadhikaati. sabbasa"nkhatasabhaagekasa"ngahato attattaniyagaahavatthussa etaparamato a~n~nesa~nca tadavarodhato. 217. anekappabhedesu hi sa"nkhatadhammesu sabhaagavasena sa"ngayhamaanesu ruupampi ruupasabhaagekasa"ngahavasena eko khandho hoti. vedanaa vedanaasabhaagekasa"ngahavasena eko khandho hoti. esa nayo sa~n~naadiisu. tasmaa sabbasa"nkhatasabhaagekasa"ngahato pa~nceva vuttaa. 54480 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 6:55pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements buddhistmedi... Dear Ken H and Htoo - It was a long time that our discussion paths did not cross. But it doesn't seem to matter much, since you still are bringing back the same old debates over and over again. So I can go away a few years without missing anything important. :-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > H: > The effort becomes loosen. To save the effort the above 4 > contemplations are worthy to contemplate. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken H : > It they are contemplated wrongly there will be more conditions for > wrong practice, and there will be more wrong effort aimed > at controlling paramattha dhammas. However, if we contemplate the > four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole, there will > be more understanding of conditioned dhammas. > > -------------------------------- > > H: > We do need aataapii, burning viiriya to burn all defilements. > Loose practice will not burn all defilements. To burn all the > defilements formal meditation is needed. > -------------------------------- > Ken H : > So you keep saying, but that is not what the Buddha taught. Right > effort is a fleeting, conditioned, paramattha dhamma that arises in > the same citta as its forerunner, right understanding. The right > effort you are describing is something very different. You are > describing an imaginary course of action carried out by imaginary > beings. If I may say so; that kind of practice is best left to other > (non-Buddhist) teachings. :-) > Tep: 1. You wrote :"if we contemplate the four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole, there will be more understanding of conditioned dhammas". But I am not sure how to "contemplate the four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole". 2. How would you prove that the Buddha did not teach that "aataapii, burning viiriya", was required "to burn all defilements"? Besides, it seems that Htoo used the wordings from Mahasatipatthana Sutta Commentaries. Don't you think so? Kind regards, Tep ========= 54481 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 10:10pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 353 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] The canker of desire for rebirth, bhavåsava, is another one of the åsavas. The Atthasåliní (II, Book II, Chapter II, 370) explains that this “arises by way of aspiring to rebirth in Rúpa and Arúpa forms of life”. Even the anågåmí who has eradicated all clinging to sensuous objects, can still have clinging to rebirth which is the result of jhåna. So long as there is attachment to any kind of rebirth one has to continue to be in the cycle of birth and death. The canker of wrong view, diììhåsava, comprises, according to the Dhammasangaùi (§1099) the conceiving of all speculative theories such as eternalism, annihilationism, theories about the world, the soul and the body. So long as one has not attained enlightenment one tends to cling to the concept of self and this is so deeply rooted that it is extremely hard to eradicate it. The canker of ignorance, avijjåsava, is moha cetasika. It is ignorance of the four noble Truths, of the past, the future or both, and of the “Dependant Origination” (Dhammasangaùi, §1100). We have innumerable moments of ignorance. Ignorance is dangerous, at the moment it arises we do not realize that there is ignorance. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54482 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 10:48pm Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 3 rjkjp1 --- Dear Nina, I published this as an appendix to your interview. http://www.abhidhamma.org/interview%20with%20nina.html#Interview% 20with%20Nina%20van%20Gorkom %20September%201999 With respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 3 > > Afterwards we offered Sangha Dåna to the monks. Lodewijk spoke the following > words of thanksgiving to them: > > Venerable Monks, > > On behalf of this group of Thai and foreign pilgrims under the spiritual > leadership of Acharn Sujin Borharnwanaket and the practical leadership of > Mr. Suwat Chansuvithiyanant , I wish to thank you for giving us this > opportunity to perform Sangha Dana and to pay you our deep respect. Your > community of monks reminds us of the vital importance of the Sangha, the > third of the Triple Gem, now and in the future. > Last week, my wife Nina and I celebrated my eightieth birthday by paying > respect to the place Kuru in New Delhi, where the Lord Buddha preached the > Satipatthåna Sutta. Nina recited the text to me and I was, again, struck by > the power of this Sutta and its significance for our daily life. > This morning, I received the most precious birthday present one can wish > for: the honour to carry the relics of the Lord Buddha. > The two most important and happiest events in my life were marrying Nina and > our encounter with Buddhism through the hands of Acharn Sujin who, ever > since, has guided us on the Path and who, during this tour, tirelessly > explained the Dhamma to us, wherever and whenever possible. > Looking back on my life, I feel distressed by the amount of accumulated > akusala committed in the past. > I feel distressed by dukkha, by the burden of the five Khandhas of grasping, > so well explained in the teachings: rúpa khandha, vedanå khandha (feeling), > saññå khandha (remembrance), sankhåra khandha (mental formations) and > viññåna khandha. > I feel distressed by the destructive power of the five hindrances, so > forcefully put forth in the teachings, which are: desire of sense pleasures, > aversion, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor and doubt. > And yet, I understand at least in theory, that regret of the past makes no > sense, that there is no self in the past, and that it is understanding of > the present moment that counts. > And, in fact, I have every reason to be grateful. > Every day, I am encouraged and inspired by Nina¹s tireless efforts to > understand the Dhamma and to help others to understand it. > I was inspired by the courage of Nina¹s father who recently passed away at > the age of hundred and four and who, despite his incapacities of body and > mind, never gave up and always looked towards the future. > And above all, who should be distressed when he hears the voice of the Lord > Buddha: ³Abandon evil, O monks. One can abandon evil, O monks. If it were > impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be > done, therefore, I say: Abandon evil!², and similarly on cultivating the > good. > On our long journey towards wisdom, we need the support and the inspiration > of the Sangha and therefore, I urge you, venerable monks, to persevere in > your task of preserving and propagating the teachings. > We thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna and as a > token of our thanks, I wish to present to you, Venerable Head Monk, Acharn > Sujin¹s book, ³A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², translated from Thai by Nina > and recently published in Bangkok. It is a masterful, all encompassing > treatise on the Dhamma and I hope that it will be of use to your community. > > ****** > Nina. > 54483 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 10:51pm Subject: Abhidhamma Course – Session 2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends in the Abhidhamma course corner, “The topics of Abhidhamma spoken of therein in full are from the ultimate standpoint four: consciousness, mentalities, materiality, and nibbana.” [“Tattha vutt’ aabhidhammatthaa Catudhaa paramattho Citta’m cetasika’m ruupa’m Nibbaanam iti sabbathaa”] (From: Abhidhammatthasa’ngaha, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, transl by Wijeratne and Gethin). S: These 4 paramattha dhammas are all there are. Now there’s nothing else but cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. From the commentary to the above (same transl): “ ‘Therein’ – in the Abhidhamma – ‘the topics of Abhidhamma spoken of in full’, as wholesome and so on, and as aggregates and so on, ‘from the ultimate standpoint’ – by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk – ‘are four’ – are classified in four ways, namely: ‘consciousness (citta), the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), ‘mentalities’, the three aggregates beginning with feeling; ‘materiality’, the aggregate of materiality differentiated as the elements and dependent [materialities]; ‘nibbaana’, the unconditioned dhamma which becomes the object of the paths and fruits.” “ ‘Ultimate’ means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate.” “ ‘Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘Consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’” “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no arising of any mentality at all. But consciousness does occur with an object in the absence of certain mentalities; so mentality is said to occur in dependence upon consciousness. Therefore the Blessed One has said: ‘Dhammas have mind as their forerunner.’ (Dhp 1) This refutes erroneoud opinions such as that happiness, etc, are permanent and exist in the absence of consciousness. Alternatively ‘mentality’ is that which is combined with consciousness.” “That which is afflicted (ruppati) is ‘materiality (ruupa); that which ‘comes to or is brought to change (vikaara) as a result of such opposing conditions as cold and heat’ is what is meant.” S: Or we can say that rupas never experience an object. Rupas outside the body, such as those in what we call rocks, trees or computers, are conditioned by temperature only. I hope this generates further discussion and that others continue to helps with any questions arising! Metta, Sarah ======= 54484 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien, --- s.billard@... wrote: > I would like to know if there was anything "uncompatible" between > Nagarjuna > doctrine (Mulamadhyamakakarika) and the Theravada Doctrine ? I know > Nagarjuna > is seen as the founder of Madhyamika which later gave birth to Mahayana, > but is > Nagarjuna a lecture recommended for a theravadin ? Or does > Mulamadhyamakakarika > profess views seen as false views in the Theravada tradition ? ..... S: I think we have to find this out for ourselves....For me, from the very little I've studied, there are some false views. Please read these two past messages and tell me what you think: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27999 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37082 I think you might also find it very interesting to listen to the first part audio discussion between Erik and A.Sujin to be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Please let us know your comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 54485 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Sujin part1 sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > First of all, Sarah, thank you for this! I've listened to the first tape and have enjoyed it. My kudos to Erik! :-) I appreciate his emphasis on clarity and mutual understanding of >intended meanings!! ... S: Yes, I agree ....more to come as I said. Very lively too:-). Interesting for you as you've also met Erik. I'm glad you listened. ... > One comment: As to the second sort of dukkha, the dukkha of > change I > believe it is (?) - I take this to be the inadequacy, or, better, the > undependability, of dhammas due to anicca, to their not remaining. What > does not remain > cannot be grasped or controlled, and is thus unworthy of pursuit. ..... Yes, though this may be closer to a description of the third kind of dukkha which is the Noble Truth of Dukkha, the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas. The second kind of dukkha, viparinama dukkha, usually is discussed in terms of pleasant feeling (as opposed to unpleasant feeling in the first kind of dukkha dukkha). We grasp after one pleasant feeling after another, not realising they are as much dukkha as the unpleasant feelings we're used to associating with dukkha. This is an extract from a talk of K.Sujin's which Nina recently posted from the Cambodia series. (lots more under 'Dukkha' in U.P. of course:-)). Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 1:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sa~n~na, accumulations. Are reincarnation real ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Joop, > Hallo Nina Many thanks for your message. It answers the main question of my message #54463: if it's correct to say that concepts (panatti) of a former life (after rebirth) cannot be remembered. But what you said about accumulations, also after re-reading UP and what Jon wrote about it, is not clear. From your answer I understand that my idea that a accumulation is a dynamic and structured amount of (another word for accumulation) cetasikas is wrong. Nina: "[Cittas]… are not accompanied by accumulated cetasikas, I would not put it that way. … Accumulations lie dormant and can condition the arising of kusala or akusala at the present." Joop: how do you imagine this lieing dormant in time? "Lie" in what? What is "dormant" (or "latent", another word I have read)? Why do this accumulations not fall away but are they (rather) permanent? What is the relation between "accumulations" and "fruit of kamma"; are they the same? Are this accumulations concepts or ultimate realities? ..If they are ultimate realities, what kind: citta, cetasika, rupa? ..If they are concepts, to which class of concept do they belong according page 270/271 of Sujin's Survey? Metta Joop 54487 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 1:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) robmoult Hi Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > I was taught that DO is the concept of "Dependant co-arising" meaning that > one thing gives rise to another; & the 12-links is the concept of the > "12-links in a chain of causation." The 12-links (i.e., 1 chain of > causation) is a subset of DO. > > But then I understand you. What would you call the prospective TG and I are > presenting? Causation? ===== I would call it "Conditional Relations" or paccaya in Pali. Metta, Rob M :-) 54488 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:02am Subject: "for none who is born can escape death" sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We very recently about the death of a dear friend from pancreatic cancer. She and her husband left Hong Kong a few years ago to live in London and I last saw them when they came down to visit me in Sussex with some other friends for Dhamma discussion. We’ve since called and written to her husband, a New Yorker and also a Buddhist Jew like Howard:-). He's returned to New York to start a new life and was saying how Buddhist reminders about 'letting go',’ reflections on joy and suffering’ 'starting over' and 'the shortness of life' have helped him through a very difficult time. I sent him a card a couple of days ago with the following lines which are helpful for us all to reflect on at anytime, I think: “Short is the life of human beings, O Brahmins, limited and brief; it is full of suffering, full of tribulation. This one should wisely understand. One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death. “Just as a dew-drop on the tip of a bland of grass will quickly vanish at sunrise and will not last long; even so, Brahmins, is human life like a dew-drop. This one should wisely understand. One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death. “Just a, when rain falls from the sky in thick drops, a bubble appearing on the water will quickly vanish and will not last long; even so, Brahmins, is human life like a water bubble. It is short....for none who is born can escape death.” (AN 7s, 70, Bodhi transl)* ***** S: We might think that if we could live for a few hundred years and without so much obvious suffering, that such a sutta would not be so applicable. However, we read that these lines were originally given by Araka (the Bodhisatta, then born as a Brahmin teacher) to his many hundreds of disciples. (In the Araka Jataka we read that he had a large following and taught his disciples about the importance of the brahma viharas. He was then reborn in the Brahma world where he stayed for seven aeons.) The Buddha tells us further on in the sutta above that: “But at that time, O monks, the human lifespan was 60,000 years, and at 500 years girls were marriageable. In those days people had but six afflictions: cold, heat, hunger, thirst, excrement and urine. Though people lived so long and had so few afflictions, that teacher Araka gave to his disciples such a teaching: ‘Short is the life of human beings...’. “But nowadays, O monks, one could rightly say, ‘Short is the life of human beings....’....” ***** S: However long or short life is in a conventional sense, it is short. Whether it appears to be full of tribulations or not, it is suffering. Each conditioned dhamma which arises is suffering (dukkha). And in an absolute sense, life just exists in a moment. However, we’re lulled through ignorance to see it as lasting for a long period and forget about how there is momentary death all the time and that the death of the present life-span can come at any time for any of us. "One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death." Metta, Sarah. *http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-070.html (for full sutta, Thanissaro translation) (RobK, it was their flat above ours that you stayed in when you visited us for a couple of weeks or so all those years ago, after meeting us and K.Sujin in Bangkok.) =============== 54489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:28am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 4 nilovg When we were in Lumbini, the Buddha¹s birth place, going around Asoka¹s pillar, I could not find Lodewijk. I was very sad because I thought that this would be the last occasion that we would go around together in this place. After a while he found me and we could continue together, paying respect to the Buddha. I remarked to him that the dosa that arose was a perfect subject of satipatthåna. We never know what will happen the next moment and I realized that the greatest respect to the Buddha is being mindful of the dhamma that presents itself at the present moment. We may feel lonely, but in the ultimate sense we are alone with Dhamma, the teaching of the truth of life and death. We notice dosa and feel unpleasant feeling. We believe that we experience dosa, but we do not realize it as a dhamma, arising because of its proper conditions. I realized that noticing dosa is only thinking about it, and at such a moment there is still an idea of ³my dosa². Acharn Sujin said that understanding based on listening leads to thinking in the right way of nåma and rúpa; only if right understanding has become more firmly established, it can condition direct awareness of realities. If there are no conditions for it, it is impossible to be directly aware of dosa and realize it as a dhamma, non-self. At the first stage of insight, the difference betrween the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa is clearly realized, not before. One begins to understand nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. This means, we begin to see the nåma that appears as a dhamma and the rúpa that appears as a dhamma. Before this stage of insight is reached, there is still a notion of ³my dosa², and ³my lobha², even though we have intellectual understanding of the fact that they are cetasikas, non-self. We have not really penetrated the truth of anattå. The wrong view of self is eradicated by the sotåpanna. He still has lobha and dosa but he does not take them for ³self² and this makes a great deal of difference. At this stage paññå can see defilements as dhammas, arisen because of their own conditions. Attachment to sense objects and aversion are eradicated at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. Paññå has to be developed in the right order, the right order in stages of insight, and stages of enlightenment. **** Nina. 54490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 215 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, op 09-01-2006 03:24 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > It seems to me that objects don't cause clinging. Ignorance causes > clinging. Therefore, I would say the 5 khandhas _not_ subject to > clinging are khandhas experienced as paramattha dhammas (by wisdom). ------ N: The only objects that cannot be objects of clinging are the four lokuttara nama-khandhas, and nibbana, but nibbana is not a khandha. Khandha is conditioned dhamma that arises and falls away. There can be awareness and right understanding of the khandhas that are susceptible to clinging and at that moment there is no clinging. However, this does not make the objects themselves any less khandhas of clinging, objects that are subject to cankers, liable to clinging. We have to remember what the objects are that are not subject to clinging. ------- L: And the 5 khandhas that _are_ subject to clinging are khandhas experienced > as compact wholes (by ignorance). Ignorance ignores paramattha dhammas > and the result is clinging. It is impossible to cling to a paramattha > dhamma. ------- N: You mean, it is impossible to cling while one sees an object as a paramattha dhamma. But all paramattha dhammas that are not lokuttara *can* be objects of clinging. We cling any time to visible object, to sound , to seeing, to feeling. These are paramattha dhammas that are liable to clinging, and, as said, no matter we cling or do not cling to them, they are khandhas of clinging. Above, you use, khandhas experienced as compact wholes (by ignorance). As to a compact, a whole, a group, we have to make a distinction. In the text, 216, we see: Thus a khandha or group consists of conditioned dhammas that resemble each other. Another meaning of a whole: taking dhammas as a mass, assuming a self by failing to analyse them as different namas and rupas. We read in Vis. 213: < for there are those people who, while teachable, have fallen into assuming a self among the five aggregates owing to failure to analyze them;... ------- N: As to the expression, by non-analysis (abhedena), the Tiika states that this means: by not analysing the khandhas, beginning with ruupa, by taking them together as a mass (pi.n.da). As to the expression, assuming a self (attagaaha), the Tiika states that they have fallen into the flood of wrong view (di.t.thogha)by the assuming of a self as mentioned. ---------- Text Vis.: and the Blessed One is desirous of releasing them from the assumption by getting them to see how the [seeming] compactness of mass [in the five aggregates] is resolved; --------- N: The Tiika explains that seeing the resolution of the mass or whole (of the five khandhas) is done by distinguishing (vivecento) ruupa from aruupa (naama)....> Thus, we believe that a person exists by failing to see that what we call a person is nama and rupa, or five khandhas that arise and fall away. So long as we take nama and rupa together, we beielve in a self. ------- L: It seems very strange to me to say the category "5 khandhas" is either 4 > nama khandhas, all lokuttara, or else a combination of 5 khandhas > subject to clinging and 4 khandhas not subject to clinging, all > lokuttara. The latter being actually 9 khandhas and the former only 4 > khandhas. The only way to come up with 5 using the lokuttara angle is to > include nibbana, but the Buddha doesn't do that. ------- N: I try to put it in another way. Five khandhas: here all conditioned dhammas, nama and rupa, are classified as five heaps of dhammas and each of these heaps consists of dhammas that ressemble each other. Rupakkhandha consists of dhammas that are molested. Feelings, pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent, these are all feeling that experiences the flavour of an object. And so on. Further, there are five khandhas of clinging: these include all conditioned dhammas that are not lokuttara. They are liable to clinging, they can be objects of clinging. Lokuttara namadhammas do not fit into the five khandhas of clinging, thus they are included in the bare khandhas. As Ven. Bodhi states, the five khandhas of clinging are included within the five khandhas. He states: ³...for all members of the former set must also be members of the latter set." It is helpful for the development of insight to remember that the five khandhas are also khandhas that are liable to clinging. It gives us a sense of urgency to develop wisdom so that we see things as they really are. I am glad you brought this up, because when we read the texts it is not immediately evident what is meant. Nina. 54491 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 4:17am Subject: Re: "for none who is born can escape death" rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > We very recently about the death of a dear friend from pancreatic cancer. > She and her husband left Hong Kong a few years ago to live in London and I > last saw them when they came down to visit me in Sussex with some other > friends for Dhamma discussion. > (RobK, it was their flat above ours that you stayed in when you visited us > for a couple of weeks or so all those years ago, after meeting us and > K.Sujin in Bangkok.) > =============== Dear Sarh, Yes, in 1991. A very profitable time for me, studying all those photocopies of Nina's writings and some by Venerable Dhammadharo. And in luxury overlooking the Hong Kong Harbour.It was quite a change from the $4 a night rooms I was used to in Bangkok. Exceedingly kind of that couple to allow me to stay, while they were in new York. Robert 54492 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 5:30am Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements kenhowardau Hi Tep, --------------------------- T: > It was a long time that our discussion paths did not cross. But it doesn't seem to matter much, since you still are bringing back the same old debates over and over again. ---------------------------- That's true, but I am not entirely sure you have understood what the old debates were about. Your Question 2, below, certainly contains a misunderstanding: --------------------------------------- Tep: > 1. You wrote :"if we contemplate the four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole, there will be more understanding of conditioned dhammas". But I am not sure how to "contemplate the four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole". 2. How would you prove that the Buddha did not teach that "aataapii, burning viiriya", was required "to burn all defilements"? Besides, it seems that Htoo used the wordings from Mahasatipatthana Sutta Commentaries. Don't you think so? ----------------------------------------- Re Question 2, I was not disagreeing with Htoo on this point - nor have the old debates ever been the defilement-burning capability of samma-viriya. The debates with you and Htoo - and all the other formal meditators - have always been about the *ultimate nature* of samma-viriya (and the other paramattha dhammas). The question has been; is viriya a fleeting, uncontrollable, conditioned paramattha dhamma lasting less than a billionth of a second, or is it a conventional course of action (e.g., the practice of sitting on a cushion and concentrating on concepts)? In Question 1, you say you don't know what I mean by, "contemplating the four right efforts in the light of the Dhamma as a whole." This is what the debates have been about. In my opinion, everything takes on a unique and profound new meaning when it is contemplated in the light of the Dhamma as a whole. In message 54419, Ven Samahita quoted the Sunna Sutta: "Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world ... In what way, Venerable Sir, is it, that this world is Empty ?" (end quote) I would say this is an example of contemplating emptiness in the light of the Dhamma as a whole. The Buddha explains that, in the ultimate sense, only paramattha dhammas are empty. If we contemplated the meaning of *effort* in a similar way we would realise it was only a fleeting conditioned paramattha dhamma. The conventional meaning of effort (as in the effort to sit quietly) is ultimately an illusion and not what the Buddha taught at all. I hope this clarifies a few points and we can get back to the old debates as quickly as possible. :-) Ken H 54493 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions jonoabb Hi, Tep Hope you don't mind if I come in on this, as no-one else has ;-)) I think the wording from AN IV 14 you have quoted has the same underlying meaning as the summary given by Htoo in his earlier post. Could you elaborate a little on why you say they are not the same? Thanks. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >And what are the four right exertions? > >The "four exertions" are defined in AN IV.14 as follows. > >"There are these four exertions. Which four? The exertion to guard, the >exertion to abandon, the exertion to develop, & the exertion to maintain. > >Tep: So the four right exertions correspond to the four right efforts given >in your post, Htoo. But, they are not the same : > >"And what is the exertion to guard? There is the case where a monk, on >seeing a form with the eye, doesn't grasp at any theme or variations by >which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- >evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. He >practices with restraint. He guards the faculty of the eye. He achieves >restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. [Similarly with the ear, >nose, tongue, body, & intellect.] This is called the exertion to guard. > >"And what is the exertion to abandon? There is the case where a monk >doesn't acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen [in him]. He >abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence. He doesn't >acquiesce to a thought of ill will... a thought of harmfulness... any evil, >unskillful qualities that have arisen [in him]. He abandons them, >destroys them, dispels them, wipes them out of existence. This is >called the exertion to abandon. > >"And what is the exertion to develop? There is the case where a monk >develops the mindfulness factor for awakening dependent on >seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops >the investigation of qualities factor for awakening... the persistence >factor for awakening... the rapture factor for awakening... the serenity >factor for awakening... the concentration factor for awakening... the >equanimity factor for awakening dependent on seclusion... >dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. This is called the >exertion to develop. > >"And what is the exertion to maintain? There is the case where a monk >maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton >perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the >festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated >perception. This is called the exertion to maintain. > >"These are the four exertions. [AN IV.14 ] >............................................ > >Tep: My question to you ( and to all of us ) is : Are these four right >exertions at higher level than the "four right efforts", which is a factor of >the Path? In other words, do the four right exertions give the monk >greater fruits, greater benefits than the four right efforts? Why (or why >not)? > > 54494 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 7:03am Subject: Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Rob M, nilovg Dear Rob M, What a good idea to use Abhidhammattha Sangaha this year for your class. If you do not have it already, the Co. is very helpful: Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, transl by Wijeratne and Gethin), PTS. It would be helpful for all of us if you could post here your notes in small portions, in the way Sarah just does today. Then we can all profit. Nina. 54495 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/9/06 2:18:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Note 274: The three types are explained at Vism 499, 14-21 (Ppn. > 16:34-35). Briefly, suffering due to pain (dukkha-dukkhataa) is > painful bodily and mental feeling; suffering due to the formations > (sankhaaradukkhataa) is all conditioned phenomena of the three planes, > because they are oppressed by rise and fall; and suffering due to change > (viparinaamadukkhataa) is pleasant feeling, which brings suffering when it > comes to an end." > ***** > > I hope this helps. > ========================= I've copied only the part of your post which is clearest for purposes of questioning. Dukkha-dukkha is whatever is outright unpleasant, physically and mentally painful. It is obvious, and there is nothing subtle about its beng dukkha, and so I pretty much skip it. The only thing I'll say about it is that even it is not a sole condition for suffering, but merely a condition for suffering. An arahant will not suffer from it, though s/he will experience it as what it is, unpleasant. My questioning pertains to the latter two forms of dukkha: " ... suffering due to the formations(sankhaaradukkhataa) is all conditioned phenomena of the three planes, because they are oppressed by rise and fall; and suffering due to change (viparinaamadukkhataa) is pleasant feeling, which brings suffering when it comes to an end." I have the following questions: 1) What precisely is intended by 'oppressed' in "oppressed by rise and fall"? There is no "problem" in terms of rise & fall in and of themselves any more than there would be in stasis. The problem lies in our craving, aversion, and attachment in an environment of change (i.e., rise & fall). But other than this in what sense are conditioned phenomena of the three planes oppressed? What can that mean? Those phenomena do indeed arise & cease. So what? That is just as it is. What *inherent* problem is there with that? 2) What is rise & fall if not change? The first of these two forms of dukkha pertains to all conditioned dhammas, to all sankhara. But what is specifically pointed to as their dukkha is their rise & fall, their change. There simply is no indication given there as to why that change is dukkha. There is just used the word 'oppressed'. It seems to me that the next form of dukkha, referred to as "suffering due to change" is actually not itself a separate form of dukkha but is one of the reasons for "suffering due to the format ions" being dukkha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54496 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] "for none who is born can escape death" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/9/06 5:02:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Dear Friends, > > We very recently about the death of a dear friend from pancreatic cancer. > She and her husband left Hong Kong a few years ago to live in London and I > last saw them when they came down to visit me in Sussex with some other > friends for Dhamma discussion. We’ve since called and written to her > husband, a New Yorker and also a Buddhist Jew like Howard:-). > > He's returned to New York to start a new life and was saying how Buddhist > reminders about 'letting go',’ reflections on joy and suffering’ 'starting > over' and 'the shortness of life' have helped him through a very difficult > time. > ========================= I'm very, very sorry to hear of this. There is so much misery to go around! I'm sorry for your dear friend and the tribulations of her husband - I can think of no greater sorrow than his, and I'm sorry for your loss as well. May your friend who has passed on fare well and be at peace, and may her husband and you find comfort in the Dhamma and in fond recollection. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54497 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 6:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Hi Rob, We are now faced with a classical problem (which conventions to use). Boy I am glad I asked, but now what do you define as "Causation?" So, to you DO is "The 12-links in a chain of causation," nothing more, nothing less? Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of robmoult Sent: Monday, 09 January, 2006 10:52 <...> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > I was taught that DO is the concept of "Dependant co-arising" meaning that > one thing gives rise to another; & the 12-links is the concept of the > "12-links in a chain of causation." The 12-links (i.e., 1 chain of > causation) is a subset of DO. > > But then I understand you. What would you call the prospective TG and I are > presenting? Causation? ===== I would call it "Conditional Relations" or paccaya in Pali. Metta, Rob M :-) <...> 54498 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 11:36am Subject: Re: Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Rob M, htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > > What a good idea to use Abhidhammattha Sangaha this year for your class. If > you do not have it already, the Co. is very helpful: Summary of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, transl > by Wijeratne and Gethin), PTS. > It would be helpful for all of us if you could post here your notes in small > portions, in the way Sarah just does today. Then we can all profit. > Nina. ----------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob and Nina, It is good idea to post about abhidhammatthasangaha piece by piece. I look forward to seeing the posts. With respect, Htoo Naing 54499 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 6:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) dacostacharles Hi Htoo Naing, I forgot to mention that if DO is more then just "the 12-links in a chain of causation" (i.e., in reality it is "Causation"), then it could exist in even in Arhats, even in a Buddha. For example, below are two chains of causation: One chain is conditioned by the "True Mind," and the other is conditioned by a "Deluded Mind." The Links within True Mind: Clear Understanding -- Great Aspiration -- Four Wisdoms -- Transformation body -- Result Body -- Mindfulness of contact -- Mindfulness of Feeling -- Four Immeasurable Minds -- Freedom -- Wondrous Being -- Wisdom of No-Birth -- Wisdom of No-Death -- Clear Understanding. The Links within a Deluded Mind: Ignorance -- Volition Action -- Consciousness -- Mind/Body -- 6 Sense organs & their Objects -- Contact -- Feeling -- Craving -- Grasping -- Coming to Be -- Birth - Sickness, Old age, & Death -- Ignorance. Or may be it is as follows in Arhats: . Faith . Contentment . Rapture . Calmness . Bliss (unconditioned happiness) . Mental Strength (Concentration) . Wisdom and seeing things as really are . Disenchantment . Dispassion . Deliverance . The Wisdom that initiates cessation towards nibbana . Faith Or . Clear Understanding . Great Aspiration . Four Wisdoms . Transformation body . Result Body . Mindfulness of contact . Mindfulness of Feeling . Four Immeasurable Minds . Freedom -- Wondrous Being . Wisdom of No-Birth . Wisdom of No-Death . Clear Understanding Or (my own view) . Wisdom (Living the 8 fold path) (i.e., the desire, wisdom, morality, & strength not to suffer) . Accepting things as they really are . Consciousness . Mentality-materiality . Six-fold sense base . Awareness of Contact & Feeling . Realization of emptiness . Calm (No Clinging) . Openness (No becoming I, me, or mine) . Acceptance (No Birth of I, me, or mine) . Unconditioned happiness (No Suffering due to I, me, or mine) . Freedom & Faith . Wisdom (Living the 8 fold path) And based on what I got from your post, it could even be much simpler. . Wisdom (Living the 8 fold path) . Consciousness . Mentality-materiality . Six-fold sense base . Awareness of Contact & Feeling . Calm & Acceptance (even during sickness, ageing, and death) So again, if you view DO as the standard 12-links then it would be wrong to say DO exists in Arhats, and it would be only a relative truth. But if you view DO as Causation, then it could be viewed as an ultimate truth and exits in Arhats. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htootintnaing Sent: Saturday, 07 January, 2006 11:36 <.....> Htoo: This is interesting. Let's see arahats' cases again. Arahats have 'naama-ruupa'. Naamaa-ruupa --> sa.laayatana --> phasso --> vedanaa Here they do not have tanhaa. So the link is cut up. Because of this breakage there is no upadaana or clinging. There is no bhavo that would otherwise arise from clinging even though they do have their current bhavo. Because of absence of future bhavo there is no further jaati or birth. This is why arahatta magga naana stop 'birth, ageing, and death'. Arahats do have their current life. But that bhava is not the result of arahatta magga and not the result after arahatta magga naana arises. As there is no jaati or birth there is no ageing and death. This is THE GOAL of all Buddhists. <....> 54500 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "for none who is born can escape death" nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you very much, very good texts. I printed it out for discussion when I have Lunch in a restaurant tomorrow with Lodewijk. It is always a good opportunity for a discussion at leisure. I also printed out your post on tamable, teachable. Very encouraging texts. Nina. op 09-01-2006 11:02 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > > We very recently about the death of a dear friend from pancreatic cancer. 54501 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 0:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon (and KenH, Htoo) - Of course, only you stepped in (as a moderator should) and no-one else had come in on this issue yet : > > > >Tep: My question to you ( and to all of us ) is : Are these four right exertions at higher level than the "four right efforts", which is a factor of the Path? In other words, do the four right exertions give the monk greater fruits, greater benefits than the four right efforts? > >Why (or why not)? > >Jon: >I think the wording from AN IV 14 you have quoted has the same >underlying meaning as the summary given by Htoo in his earlier post. >Could you elaborate a little on why you say they are not the same? >Thanks. Tep: As a matter of fact, the wordings (concerning exertions - paggaha) from my quoted sutta are not the same as those in Htoo's post (concerning efforts - viriya). Please see my post #54476 as to why they are not the same, although the end results are the same; i.e. leading to gaining insight (Vism. XX, 119). Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi, Tep > > Hope you don't mind if I come in on this, as no-one else has ;-)) > (snipped) 54502 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada sbillard2000 Hi, I think I understand a little your explanation though I have difficulties to accept a "nature" to something. What is this "own nature" ? some essence ? or is it just a description of how dhammas work ? Sébastien > Yes, but I should have translated sabhava as "own-nature" rather than > "self-nature". Sorry. The idea being that a paramattha dhamma is a > thing-in-itself, a particular. For satipatthana it means that a > paramattha dhamma is an experience or can be experienced, however you > may understand that. A concept isn't an experience, or can't be > experienced. You can't experience a man, but you can experience visible > data and you can experience the sign of a man (in other words, recognize > a man). 54503 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada sbillard2000 Well concerning the first message it appears that phenomenas, like trees exist at least momentarily, dependant of conditions (like temperature) but not in dependance of the whole (like spirit), am I right ? I will read it more later as it is difficult matter for me, I don't want to speak in vain, need to think twice before :) Sebastien > Please read these two past messages and tell me what you think: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27999 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37082 > > I think you might also find it very interesting to listen to the first > part audio discussion between Erik and A.Sujin to be found on > www.dhammastudygroup.org. 54504 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada upasaka_howard Hi, Sébastien - In a message dated 1/9/06 5:14:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, s.billard@... writes: > Hi, > > I think I understand a little your explanation though I have difficulties to > > accept a "nature" to something. What is this "own nature" ? some essence ? > or is it just a description of how dhammas work ? > > Sébastien > =========================== Two phenomena that we experience - just random examples - are hardness and sweet taste. Are they identical or can we distinguish them? The latter, right? We can distinguish them. So, are not their "natures" or "characteristics" or whatever you want to call it ;-) different? For a phenomenon to be distinguishable from another doesn't make it self-existent. It doesn't make it independent of and separable from other phenomena, but, still, we can and do distinguish phenomena, do we not? That distinguishablility of a phenomenon from other phenomena is a fact, but it is not a substance or core or self to be found in a phenomenon. There is no substance, core, or self to be found. Like the ancient Sarvastivadins some Theravadin expositors, in the great minority I think, consider that a dhamma has an entity-ness, as opposed to its merely being an entirely contingent and provisional experiential event, and for those Theravadins, of the past and present day, 'sabhava' refers to that entity-ness, and, IMO, Mahyana justifiably criticizes this view. But more traditionally, my understanding is that Theravada considers 'sabhava' to be a mere synonym for 'lakkhana', meaning "characteristic". One need only look at the Uraga Sutta, the Phena Sutta, and the Kaccayangotta Sutta to see the emptiness view alive and well in the Pali Sutta Pitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54505 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Re: Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Rob M, robmoult Hi Nina and Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Rob M, > > > > What a good idea to use Abhidhammattha Sangaha this year for your > class. If > > you do not have it already, the Co. is very helpful: Summary of > the Topics > > of Abhidhamma, transl > > by Wijeratne and Gethin), PTS. > > It would be helpful for all of us if you could post here your > notes in small > > portions, in the way Sarah just does today. Then we can all profit. > > Nina. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Rob and Nina, > > It is good idea to post about abhidhammatthasangaha piece by piece. > I look forward to seeing the posts. ===== The main challenge that I have is that I tend to include as many charts and diagrams as I can and these do not lend themselves to the text-mode of Yahoo Groups. I have posted the introduction section (6 pages, 12 half-pages) in the files section of DSG for those who are inclined to download. But I will follow your advice and post the text portions (with references to the graphical elements) in smaller pieces for comments. Thanks for the encouragement. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Nina, I do have the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha and I find it to be quite useful. 54506 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 4:53pm Subject: Class Notes - Part 1 robmoult 0.1 Historical Perspective Brief History of Early Buddhism The time line shows the dates for major events in the development of Theravada Buddhism. These dates are only approximate and may vary by as much as two hundred years. 500 BCE: Life of the Buddha 0 CE: Tipitaka written down 500 CE: Buddhaghosa's commentaries 1000 CE: Acariya Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha The First 500 Years The Suttas were delivered for specific audiences; they were not presented as a systematic philosophy. The Buddha said that after His passing, the Dhamma should be the guide. To perform this function, a systemization of the Dhamma was required. The systemization of the Dhamma had already been started by Ven. Sariputta (Note 1) during the time of the Buddha (see Sangnti Sutta, DN 33). During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the First Council was convened to recite the Buddha's teachings. Though Buddhaghosa later claimed that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council, modern scholars believe that at the time of the First Council, the Abhidhamma only existed as a set of matikas (a list of categories) which were later developed independently by different schools (Note 2). The Abhidhamma evolved because there was a need to expand upon these matikas using precise, technical terms. Technical terms are required because common language is subject to much interpretation. These terms are a key feature of the Abhidhamma. About one hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana, the Second Council convened to discuss controversial points of Vinaya. This council resulted in the split of the Mahasanghika (who later evolved into the Mahayana school) from the traditionalist Sthaviravadins. The main point of disagreement was the Mahasanghika's reluctance to accept the Suttas and the Vinaya as the final authority on the Buddha's teachings. The Third Council was convened by King Asoka about three hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana. By this time, there were eighteen schools of Buddhism and the Elder Moggaliputta Tissa wrote Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) to clearly delineate the Theravada position versus the positions of other schools. At this point, the modern Pali Tipitaka (Note 3) was basically complete. Notes 1. Ven Sariputta is often associated with the Abhidhamma; the Sarvastivada school even attribute some of their Abhidharma texts to Ven Sariputta 2. While the Vinaya and Suttas of the different schools clearly evolved from a common root, the Theravada Abhidhamma and the Sarvastivada Abhidharma are quite different. 3. Pitaka is the Pali word for "basket" and Tipitaka means "Three Baskets". The Tipitaka is eleven times the size of the Christian bible. Discussion welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) 54507 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 5:42pm Subject: Re: Class Notes - Part 1 nichiconn Dear RobM, << 3. Pitaka is the Pali word for "basket" and Tipitaka means "Three Baskets". The Tipitaka is eleven times the size of the Christian bible. >> I remember being pretty impressed with this 11 times the size thing before & using it in something I wrote, too, but what does it mean? Why compare with the bible anyway? ... if I ordered the PTS Tipitaka, it would be 56 books in Pali, 42 in English. No big deal... looking forward to the rest of the year with you. peace, connie 54508 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 6:01pm Subject: Re: Class Notes - Part 1 robmoult Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Dear RobM, > > << 3. Pitaka is the Pali word for "basket" and Tipitaka means "Three > Baskets". The Tipitaka is eleven times the size of the Christian bible. >> > > I remember being pretty impressed with this 11 times the size thing before > & using it in something I wrote, too, but what does it mean? Why compare > with the bible anyway? ... if I ordered the PTS Tipitaka, it would be 56 > books in Pali, 42 in English. > > No big deal... ===== I agree that it is not a really big deal (this is why I put it in a footnote). My main purpose in mentioning this point is to provide a context so that people can imagine the size of the Tipitaka; not as a measure of relative value. If we used number of words as a measure of value, we might end up with a religion based on Wikipedia! :-) In any case, considering that Christ's ministry was four years while the Buddha's ministry was for 45 years, the relative size works out about right :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 54509 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 7:20pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... KenH's Knots buddhistmedi... Hi, Ken H - You are right that I misunderstood something at the time I wrote Question 2. Thank you for letting me know so that I can explain. > >Tep: > >2. How would you prove that the Buddha did not teach that "aataapii, burning viiriya", was required "to burn all defilements"? Besides, it seems that Htoo used the wordings from Mahasatipatthana Sutta Commentaries. Don't you think so? >Ken H : > Re Question 2, I was not disagreeing with Htoo on this point - nor have the old debates ever been the defilement-burning capability of samma-viriya. The debates with you and Htoo - and all the other formal meditators - have always been about the *ultimate nature* of samma-viriya (and the other paramattha dhammas). The question has been; is viriya a fleeting, uncontrollable, conditioned paramattha dhamma lasting less than a billionth of a second, or is it a conventional course of action (e.g., the practice of sitting on a cushion and concentrating on concepts)? Tep: Okay, I understand that you asked the question from the paramattha perspective. Now please allow me to ask you some practical questions. Please don't tell me what KenH thinks/believes, instead give me answers that are based on what the Buddha taught . i) Why is it useful to think that way(i.e. viriya is a fleeting, uncontrollable, conditioned paramattha dhamma lasting less than a billionth of a second)? ii) How could the idea of any conditioned dhamma lasting "less than a billionth of a second" help you truly see the dhamma better than what the Buddha taught in ,say, DN 22 that was not based on that paramattha perspective? iii) In the actual practice (beyond the theory of the paramattha dhamma), how many zillion viriyas must you string together to make, say, 5 minutes of samma-vayamo? iv) Do you know of any human whose mind is capable of truly seeing & knowing those conditioned dhammas that last "less than a billionth of a second"? ........................ >Ken H: >In message 54419, Ven Samahita quoted the Sunna Sutta: "Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world ... In what way, Venerable Sir, is it, that this world is Empty ?" (end quote) >I would say this is an example of contemplating emptiness in the light of the Dhamma as a whole. The Buddha explains that, in the ultimate sense, only paramattha dhammas are empty. Tep: The actual Buddha's words in SN XXXV.85, Suñña Sutta, are as follows: "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye- contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. "The ear is empty... The nose is empty... The tongue is empty... The body is empty... "The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty." [endquote] Tep: Correction! I am sorry to say that the Buddha neither talked about the "ultimate sense", nor did he call the "All" (equivalently, "the world") paramattha dhammas. However, I agree with you that this is a good example about contemplating emptiness of the "All" (sabba dhamma). ...................... >Ken H: >If we contemplated the meaning of *effort* in a similar way we would realise it was only a fleeting conditioned paramattha dhamma. The conventional meaning of effort (as in the effort to sit quietly) is ultimately an illusion and not what the Buddha taught at all. Tep: I am sorry, dear Ken, I don't follow you, sir. I have no idea how you applied the Teaching in the above sutta "in a similar way" to conclude that viriya "was only a fleeting conditioned paramattha dhamma". :-) Either you had an ability to read the sutta between the lines, or you simply interpreted it the way you wanted to interpret it. .................... >Ken H: I hope this clarifies a few points and we can get back to the old debates as quickly as possible. :-) Tep: On the contrary, your anwers have added more knots. I am afraid that this is going to be a tougher debate than those in the past. :-)) Yours truly, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --------------------------- > T: > It was a long time that our discussion paths did not cross. But > it doesn't seem to matter much, since you still are bringing back the > same old debates over and over again. > ---------------------------- > > That's true, but I am not entirely sure you have understood what the > old debates were about. Your Question 2, below, certainly contains a > misunderstanding: > > --------------------------------------- (snipped) 54510 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada lbidd2 Sebastien: "I think I understand a little your explanation though I have difficulties to accept a "nature" to something. What is this "own nature" ? some essence ? or is it just a description of how dhammas work?" Hi Sebastien, Call it an element of experience. The 5 khandhas are elements of experience. The objects of satipatthana are elements of experience. To understand the significance of this you have to compare these elements of experience to something that is not an element of experience. Paris is not an element of experience. There is no Paris experience. Theravada says there is no Paris. Madhyamaka might say Paris is empty of own nature. Here is a line from the MMK: "Apart from the cause of form [rupa], form cannot be conceived. Apart from form, the cause of form is not seen." Does this say that form is empty of own nature? No. What it says is there isn't a one without an other. If there are always at least two, there is never one. If there is never one, how can there be two? But there are always at least two. So, are there two or not? The only answer is an experience of empty mind. This exercise in logic that leads to empty mind is the middle way (madhyamaka). So, there are two kinds of analysis here: the Theravadan understanding of concept and reality, and the Madhyamaka exercise in logic that leads to empty mind. They both deal with the nature of reality, but I don't think they actually cross swords. Larry 54511 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada TGrand458@... Hi All Regarding this discussion, In a message dated 1/9/2006 8:48:54 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Sebastien: "I think I understand a little your explanation though I have difficulties to accept a "nature" to something. What is this "own nature" ? some essence ? or is it just a description of how dhammas work?" Hi Sebastien, Call it an element of experience. The 5 khandhas are elements of experience. The objects of satipatthana are elements of experience. To understand the significance of this you have to compare these elements of experience to something that is not an element of experience. Paris is not an element of experience. There is no Paris experience. TG: I do not believe it is possible to contemplate something that is "outside of experience." This means there is no way to compare an experience to a "non-experience." 54512 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 9:24pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 354 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] We are time and again overcome by the åsavas. It is hard for us to see their danger. We cannot help being attached to the objects we experience through the senses. How could we prevent ourselves from liking pleasant objects? The Buddha warned people of the danger of sense-pleasures. We read in the Middle Length Sayings (I, no. 22, The Parable of the Water-snake) that the Buddha explained about the things which are “stumbling blocks” to the monk Ariììha who had wrong understanding of the Dhamma. The Buddha stated about sense-pleasures: * "... Sense-pleasures are said by me to be of little satisfaction, of much pain, of much tribulation, wherein is more peril. Sense-pleasures are likened by me to a skeleton... to a lump of meat... to a torch of dry grass... to a pit of glowing embers... to a dream... to something borrowed... to the fruits of a tree... to a slaughter-house... to an impaling stake... sense-pleasures are likened by me to a snake’s head, of much pain, of much tribulation, wherein is more peril...." * When one is still infatuated with sense-pleasures such words are hard to grasp. We may not like to hear that sense-pleasures are as sorrowful and dangerous as the things the Buddha compares them to. At the moment of attachment the object which is experienced seems to be so pleasant and we fail to see that we are lured by attachment. It is wisdom, paññå, which sees the danger of sensepleasures. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54513 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/10/06 12:05:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: I do not believe it is possible to contemplate something that is > "outside of experience." > > This means there is no way to compare an experience to a "non-experience." > ===================== TG, I know that you feel hardness, and hear sounds, and smell odors. But do you experience the United States, other than figuratively. If yes, if you experience it in the same literal way as you experience hardness, sounds, and odors, by what means does that happen? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54514 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 11:07pm Subject: Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.i sarahprocter... Hi Dan, (TG* in passing) I enjoyed your recent flurry of posts and especially your discussion with Matheesha which I’ve already commented on the 'Great Roar'. (I wasn’t sure about the last post on samatha, but I don’t have it kept aside – for another time perhaps). As we’ve said many times, you really have a way with words:-). A few points saved up from various messages – apologies in advance for the point form in no special order. A lot to cover as usual: 1. Audio tapes with Erik – funny story about when Erik aka Sam calling you a ‘silly goose’:-). Yes, Amara and Sukin’s voices (also Jon’s) on the audio. I briefly introduce Bruce. Amazing – even though you just pop in from time to time, you know more about the chronology of DSG than I do:-). Glad you’re keeping track of us all. 2. On Yoniso, javanas and fruit (#54175). Yes, without wise attention, there’s no satipatthana. However, there’s yoniso manasikara will all kinds of wholesome cittas, even those without wisdom. Yes, it has to include and refer to the javana cittas, to the whole process I believe. When we talk about the ‘fruit’ of javana, as opposed to kiriya, however – we have to be careful as this ‘fruit’ is vipaka, the fruit of kamma (cetana), not further wholesome states, like sati, which are accumulated. 3. In the same message you say you wouldn’t go so far as to say “that ‘naturally’ no wholesome cetasikas [implies no] yoniso manasikara.” What I meant was that if there are unwholesome cittas and cetasikas arising, there is no yoniso manasikara. You go on to refer to the manodvaravajjana citta which as you say is ahetuka (no root). I believe it cannot on its own be referred to as yoniso or ayoniso as I explained. But because it is the ‘head’ of the mind-door process, when the mind door process as a whole is referred to as yoniso or ayoniso, it is included. [A bit like when a football team gets a victory, the manager is included in the team photo, even though he didn’t participate on the field:-/] You ask about whether it’s a ’semantic hair-splitting’ question on yoniso manasikara and the whole vithi question. The reason I came in on the thread after some to-ing and fro-ing this time (and also before) is because I think when it’s suggested that the yoniso manasikara only refers to manodvaravajjana citta, it gives this citta undue importance and it’s quite illogical. But yet, it’s good if we can make sense of the texts which refer to it. People should realize that the kusala and akusala javana cittas are conditioned primarily by previous accumulations, by natural decisive support condition, not by ‘who was occupying the chair previously’ to use TG’s good restaurant analogy (great one, I thought, TG)*. 4. Loved your reminders about not speculating about specific people and holding friends in judgment w/ your quotes from M139. 5. Also, thought the following was particularly well put (#54176): “...I have seen enough to have some confidence that the expounders of Abhidhamma and the commentaries were clear enough in their discernment so that their discussion of vithi is descriptive rather than theoretical and that my tendency to read it as a packet theory is due to my own lack of vision rather than their indulgence in idle speculation.” This exactly summaries my own approach to those aspects of these texts which are way beyond my comprehension for now. 6. Back to (#54175) and whether the theory has to be exactly right in order to observe reality. It depends:-). In some cases it’s obvious that if the theory is wrong, the practice will be wrong. To take a recent example: Math wrote an excellent post on hiri and ottappa, but mentioned in passing that shyness and fear of criticism were examples of hiri and ottappa (sobhana mental factors). If we think these kinds of dosa are skilful and to be developed, they won’t be seen for what they are. Like the sadness which is often taken for compassion or the attachment which is often taken for metta or the confusion over feelings, namas and rupas...or wise attention being a mind-door advertence with a subtle idea of self that can ‘avert’ to wholesome or unwholesome javana cittas.....Who knows? Better to consider and reflect on and on. The analogy of the ingredients in the curry can be found in K. Milinda. We can’t pinpoint ‘this is hiri’, this is ottappa’ etc, but awareness can develop and understanding can gradually get to appreciate the various characteristics appearing. But this will never be by trying to pinpoint or be aware of such states. 7. You asked whether I saw any difference ‘between descriptive reflection and theoretical speculation’. Yes, I see a difference between reading, considering, reflection with wise attention and with unwise attention. They can follow each other very closely, even as I write this post. I think it’s always useful to consider the purpose of our present study and reflection. (There were some very good posts from K.Sujin’s Cambodia talks on the meaning of study – see ‘Study’ in U.P.) As I wrote before, “it is the pariyatti, the wise considering, which leads to patipatti. Not the book knowledge.” And if the considering is not related to present dhammas, I think it’s unlikely to be wise considering. 8. Gratitude for live and lovely sunsets and showing one’s appreciation. It came up in Bangkok too – pure lobha!! Appreciative joy on account of one’s own kusala? Usually lobha too but can be wise reflection. We can only know for ourselves, so perhaps I shouldn’t generalize from my own experience:-). (to be continued if I find the time later.... this is rather cryptic, but I know you'll be able to follow.) Metta, Sarah ======== 54515 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/9/2006 10:38:41 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/10/06 12:05:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: I do not believe it is possible to contemplate something that is > "outside of experience." > > This means there is no way to compare an experience to a "non-experience." > ===================== TG, I know that you feel hardness, and hear sounds, and smell odors. But do you experience the United States, other than figuratively. If yes, if you experience it in the same literal way as you experience hardness, sounds, and odors, by what means does that happen? With metta, Howard Hi Howard I experience concepts -- conceptually. I experience thoughts -- thoughtfully. I experience smells -- 'olfactorally.' I experience sights -- visually, I experience sounds -- audibly, etc. With your phenomenological approach, I'd expect that you'd accept the idea that -- we are incapable of having a memory of a non-experience. "Mental ideation" to me is not only experience... it is what human beings do best. Without it, we could not learn dhamma and overcome suffering. To me, the experience of an "idea" is just as "real" as "hardness." They are both temporary formations with no self-substance. We are the product of conditions. We cannot even imagine something beyond conditions. If we imagine "Paris" or "The United States," we imagine, remember, and engage conditions (probably primarily memories) associated with those "signs," i.e., words. Hardness is a tactile feeling, United States is mental ideation. I could turn the argument around and say that "hardness" is merely a concept...which it actually is. There is a whole range of feelings that could be classified as hardness. The light touch of a feather or a blow from a baseball bat. The actual feeling of hardness at one point in time depends on the conditions at that time. So too, whatever mental ideation comes from the idea of Paris or United States, at any given time, depends on the conditions at that time. I don't accept the notion that we can experience something that's not real. We can certainly be deluded about what's real or not...but our experiences are limited to what is real. (Even if they are mis-perceived.) The statement advising someone to compare a "real experience" with a "non-experience" doesn't compute IMO. Of course all of these conditions are just that -- conditions. They are selfless, impermanent, and latent with suffering. Some people might want to think in terms of realities and concept. But I don't think the Buddha's teaching was too concerned about those topics. I would rather think in terms of conditions and suffering. TG 54516 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 0:51am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Course – Session 2 gazita2002 Hello Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends in the Abhidhamma course corner, > > "The topics of Abhidhamma spoken of therein in full are from the ultimate > standpoint four: consciousness, mentalities, materiality, and nibbana." > > ["Tattha vutt' aabhidhammatthaa > Catudhaa paramattho > Citta'm cetasika'm ruupa'm > Nibbaanam iti sabbathaa"] > > .....snip..... > "That which is afflicted (ruppati) is `materiality (ruupa); that which > `comes to or is brought to change (vikaara) as a result of such opposing > conditions as cold and heat' is what is meant." azita: I'm having a difficulty with the word 'afflicted'. why is rupa 'afflicted'. it seems a strange choice of words, but I'm sure you have a good explanation, Sarah :-) thanks in advance, > > S: Or we can say that rupas never experience an object. Rupas outside the > body, such as those in what we call rocks, trees or computers, are > conditioned by temperature only. > > I hope this generates further discussion and that others continue to helps > with any questions arising! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 54517 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Course – Session 2 nilovg Hi Azita, afflicted, ruppana, yes, coming up soon in Vis. You will see. Nina op 10-01-2006 09:51 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > > azita: I'm having a difficulty with the word 'afflicted'. why is > rupa 'afflicted'. it seems a strange choice of words, 54518 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:18am Subject: Re: Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada jwromeijn Hallo Sebastien Two remarks that perhaps are of some help First, it has many times surprised me why many DSG-participants talks so diffucult about "sabhava". I think it is easy: it's about having "properties". An electron for example has some properties, a cetasika too. The next question is: are those properties absolute, are it properties "as such" so to say? Asked in another way: if there don't exist any human being in the universe, do then still these properties exist? There are two answers of course: yes and no. The "yes"-answer is ontology and leads to fundamentalism; I think the "no"-answer is better: the reality as such with all its components is unknowable; one can say "it is empty" but I think is more elegant to say "it is unknowable". All we can do is to make a theory (in our mind) of the socalled reality, and in and only in that theory a component of that reality it has properties. The theory of "The 5 khandhas" is a useful theory when one has the purpose to be liberated; when one has the purpose to dominate the physical world, then another theory is better. The Abhidhamma-system is even more advanced with the same liberating purpose. Second, back to your question about the relation Nagarjuna - Theravada Many Mahayanists (and especially Tibetan Buddhist) claim that Nagarjuna was a (or: the first) Mahayanist. But I think the scholar David Kalupahana has good arguments in his statement that Nagarjuna followed for hundred procent the Teachings of the Buddha, as formulated in the Suttas. In the Introduction to his translation of the Mulamadhyamakakarika Kalupahana explains that this work of Nagarjuna is in fact one big comment on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya XII: 15. See "The philosopy of the Middle Way", 1986. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, s.billard@f... wrote: > > Greetings all, > > I would like to know if there was anything "uncompatible" between Nagarjuna > doctrine (Mulamadhyamakakarika) and the Theravada Doctrine ? I know Nagarjuna > is seen as the founder of Madhyamika which later gave birth to Mahayana, but is > Nagarjuna a lecture recommended for a theravadin ? Or does Mulamadhyamakakarika > profess views seen as false views in the Theravada tradition ? > > Thanks for your input :) > > Sébastien > http://s.billard.free.fr > 54519 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:06am Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... KenH's Knots kenhowardau Hi Tep, ----------------------------------- . . . T: > Okay, I understand that you asked the question from the paramattha perspective. Now please allow me to ask you some practical questions. Please don't tell me what KenH thinks/believes, instead give me answers that are based on what the Buddha taught. 1) Why is it useful to think that way(i.e. viriya is a fleeting, uncontrollable, conditioned paramattha dhamma lasting less than a billionth of a second)? ---------------------------------- It is useful to think that way because that is the way the Buddha described the world. Perhaps we have a fundamental disagreement on what the Buddha taught. Do we agree that the world is composed entirely of paramattha dhammas, every one of which is fleeting, dependent upon conditions and beyond our control? And do we agree that direct right understanding of those paramattha dhammas will lead to the end of suffering? ------------------------------------------------- T: > ii) How could the idea of any conditioned dhamma lasting "less than a billionth of a second" help you truly see the dhamma --------------------------------------------------- When the idea of the fleetingness of dhammas is properly understood, there is correct indirect understanding (of anicca). Eventually, that will lead to correct direct understanding. ------------------------------------------------------------- T: > better than what the Buddha taught in ,say, DN 22 that was not based on that paramattha perspective? -------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes the Dhamma is taught in conventional terminology, and sometimes it is taught in paramattha terminology, but the paramattha perspective is all pervading. At all times and for all beings (Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike) there are only namas and rupas. Belief in any other reality is delusory. ----------------------- T: > iii) In the actual practice (beyond the theory of the paramattha dhamma), how many zillion viriyas must you string together to make, say, 5 minutes of samma-vayamo? ----------------------- In the actual practice, viriya is right viriya (samma-vayamo). Therefore, I can't really understand your question. If you would like to elaborate I will gladly try again. ---------------------------------------- T: > iv) Do you know of any human whose mind is capable of truly seeing & knowing those conditioned dhammas that last "less than a billionth of a second"? ----------------------------------------- People born with the three wholesome hetu have the potential to practise satipatthana in the present lifetime. I have no idea who those people might or might not be. But who cares? The ideal is to develop right understanding of the dhammas that are arising now. The tendency to think of right understanding (or any other dhamma) as "mine, yours, his or hers" will only conceal its anatta characteristic. Ken H Woops! I have just noticed there is more to your post that I haven't replied to yet. I will get back to it in the morning. 54520 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:20am Subject: the Vimuttimagga (was Re: Samatha & Vipassana) sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, (Connie & all) So nice to see you active here again. The Canadians have been making a strong show recently:-). Sincere apologies for the delay in response to your helpful quote and comments on the Vimuttimagga which I asked you for. --- robmoult wrote: S:> > You mentioned (off-list) that you'd been reading the Vimuttimagga > with > > more detail. Perhaps you'd like to share this. The Vimuttimagga is > pretty > > controversial of course:-) > > ================== R:> <...> > Lately, I have been reading the Vimuttimagga (The Path of Freedom) > and found a wealth of new information. The Vimuttimagga was one of > the sources used by Buddhaghosa (in an earlier post, I citied > Buddhaghosa's reference to the Vimuttimagga in the area of carita). > Sarah, I am not clear at all as to why you consider the Vimuttimagga > to be controversial. In his introduction to the Visuddhimagga, Ven. > Nanamoli Thera says, "The Vimuttimagga itself contains nothing at all > of the Mahayana, its unorthodoxies being well within the 'Hinayana' > field" ..... S: For the controversy, pls check the following posts (in U.P.) and maybe quote from them with any of your comments Vimuttimagga (25136), 25176, 25218, 25240. .... > Here is a quote from Chapter 11 of Vimuttimagga, "The Five Methods" > under "Simile of the Thread" and "Simile of the Mango" (p256 in my > text). > > The Simile of the Thread (possibly taken from DN2 Samanna-phala Sutta) > > Here the life-continuum is the consciousness-faculty of becoming. It > is likened to the drawing of thread. Adverting is conditioned by the > visible object at the eye-door. Through the visible object entering > the field (of presentation?), the life-continuum vibrates, and is > followed by adverting to the visible object. Adverting which depends > on the eye is followed by discerning. This is followed by reception > in the sense of experience. Then follows examining in the sense of > (investigating) experience. After that becomes determining in the > sense of understanding. Determining proceeds and is followed by > apperception according to action. Apperception proceeding in the > sense of full cognition and not in the sense of means is followed by > registration of effect. After that consciousness lapses in the life- > continuum. > > Simile of the Mango <...> > Very interesting, eh? The citta process clearly laid out in a text > that predates the Visuddhimagga! > > It is also interesting that the mango simile used to describe the > citta process is different from the mango simile used by Sumangala's > commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha to describe the same process. ...... S: Yes, it is interesting that the vithi process is laid out in such detail here. As we’ve said many times, Buddhaghosa and Anuruddha did not ‘invent’ anything new.....all the details were already found in the earlier commentaries and Abhidhamma which go back to the First Counci as I understand. The Vimuttimagga would have been based on these earlier texts too. (See more in the ‘controversial’ posts). More on these details as found in other Tipitaka texts have been discussed before by Nina and others (there will be some under ‘Processes of Cittas’, but it needs a little wading. Connie or someone may help fish them out if they have time). Metta, Sarah ======= 54521 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - qualities of rupa. scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: N:They are still classified among the twentyeight kinds of rupas, thus, they > are not paññatis. Another example is akaasa, space that surrounds the groups > of ruupa. It is not a concept. Or speech intimation, a ruupa that is a > change in the great elements and that is a condition for speech. Thus, also > certain qualities of ruupas are still ruupa, not a concept. > Many details are to be found in the beginning of Ch XIV, Visuddhimagga, > rupakkhandha, but I doubt whether this is useful to you at this moment. > Too many details may be confusing. > ------- Dear Nina, Thank you. Qualities of rupa are still rupa. I got it. I still think there's something to what I was wondering about the relation of lakhana rupas to jhana but will put this off until I can better formulate a question. My apologies for being impulsive at the end of the post. Not very mindful of me. Sincerely, Scott. > 54522 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/10/06 2:25:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > I experience concepts -- conceptually. I experience thoughts -- > thoughtfully. I experience smells -- 'olfactorally.' I experience sights > -- visually, > I experience sounds -- audibly, etc. > > With your phenomenological approach, I'd expect that you'd accept the idea > that -- we are incapable of having a memory of a non-experience. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't question for a second that when we are thinking about the United States there is experience (and likewise when we remember auch thinking). But is it the United States that is (or are) being experienced. I say definitely not. ------------------------------------------- > > "Mental ideation" to me is not only experience... it is what human beings > do > best. Without it, we could not learn dhamma and overcome suffering. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course there are processes of thinking, and we are aware of them. They are real experiential processes, and we couldn't function without them, hardly for a second. Having said that, when and how do you literally experience this "thing" we call United States? For that matter, putting aside the matter of the United States, per se: While hardness or vinegar-odor or an elbow itch are all precise elements of experience, how definitive and graspable is the "thing" we like to call the *concept* of the United States or the concept of tree for that matter? When there are certain mental operations in effect, we *say* there is present "the concept" of United States, but AFAIK, that's just a way of speaking. -------------------------------------------- > > To me, the experience of an "idea" is just as "real" as "hardness." They > are both temporary formations with no self-substance. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that whenever we are engaged in experiencing what we call an idea there are mental operations in effect that we are aware of, but speaking of ideas is to me a simplification that when pursued doesn't hold up. ----------------------------------------------- > > We are the product of conditions. We cannot even imagine something beyond > conditions. If we imagine "Paris" or "The United States," we imagine, > remember, and engage conditions (probably primarily memories) associated > with those > "signs," i.e., words. Hardness is a tactile feeling, United States is > mental > ideation. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Ther's a nice symmetry to that, but I don't think it is quite right - not literally. -------------------------------------------- > > I could turn the argument around and say that "hardness" is merely a > concept...which it actually is. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: There is "thinking of hardness," a mental process, but that is not the same as experiencing actual hardness. Of course I don't doubt at all that we immediately pounce upon a hardness experience with mental processing. -------------------------------------------- There is a whole range of feelings that could be > > classified as hardness. The light touch of a feather or a blow from a > baseball > bat. The actual feeling of hardness at one point in time depends on the > conditions at that time. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Absolutely. Each actual experience, though, is a real experience. Mentally tagging any one of them as "hardness" is just another mental operation, one which makes us *think* that there is a generic "hardness", but there is no general hardness, nor is there any unique mental event that is the concept of such. --------------------------------------------- > So too, whatever mental ideation comes from the idea > of Paris or United States, at any given time, depends on the conditions at > that time. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: You speak of "the idea" (THE idea) of Paris or the U.S.. I cannot find that. I can't even find, literally. ideas (plural) of these. I just find myself engaged in snippets of thinking from time to time that I *call* thinking of Paris or the U.S. ----------------------------------------------- > > I don't accept the notion that we can experience something that's not real. > > We can certainly be deluded about what's real or not...but our experiences > are limited to what is real. (Even if they are mis-perceived.) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't question that when we say we are thinking of X, Y, or Z that there is experiencing going on. On that we agree. We disgree on formulation of exactly what is happening in those cases. ------------------------------------------------ > > The statement advising someone to compare a "real experience" with a > "non-experience" doesn't compute IMO. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: We never experience non-experiences; on that we agree. Even when we experience a cessation or an absence, there is content of experience. ------------------------------------------------ > > Of course all of these conditions are just that -- conditions. They are > selfless, impermanent, and latent with suffering. > > Some people might want to think in terms of realities and concept. But I > don't think the Buddha's teaching was too concerned about those topics. I > would rather think in terms of conditions and suffering. -------------------------------------- Howard: We are in agreement on this point as well. -------------------------------------- > > TG > > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:57am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch1, no 5 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch1, no 5 We should begin to develop understanding of what appears now. When our eyes are open seeing appears. Seeing could not arise if there were no eyesense and visible object or colour. Seeing is a dhamma that arises because of its proper conditions. Realities appear one at a time through the six doors. When hardness appears, it seems that it was there already for some time, but in reality it arises and then falls away. There is hardness again, but it cannot be the same. Each dhamma that arises and falls away never returns. So it is with lobha, attachment, and dosa, aversion, they seem to last for a while, but they fall away immediately. However, we think of them for a long time. When we are thinking, there is no realization of their characteristics. We think of what is past instead of attending to the characteristic appearing right now. All that is experienced is dependent on citta that arises and then falls away immediately. Citta is the chief in knowing an object and it is accompanied by several cetasikas that each perform their own function. Citta and cetasikas experience objects through the five sense-doors and the mind-door. Rúpa, physical phenomenona, can be experienced through the sense-doors and the mind-door and nåma, mental phenomena, can be experienced only through the mind-door. The rúpas of visible object, sound, odour and flavour are experienced through the relevant sense-doors and subsequently through the mind-door. The rúpas that are tactile object are: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as motion and pressure. These rúpas are experienced through the body-sense and subsequently through the mind-door. Thus, seven rúpas appear all the time in daily life, and without citta and cetasikas they could not appear. The Buddha taught us to develop understanding of ultimate realities, of rúpa and nåma which includes citta and cetasikas, mental factors arising with the citta. In this way wrong view and all defilements can be eradicated. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas are different from concepts such as persons, things or events we may think of. Ultimate realities are the objects right understanding should be developed of. We may study citta, cetasika and rúpa, but we are still bound to take citta for ³my experience² and rúpa for ³my body² or ³my possessions². We need to listen again and again and consider what we heard so that understanding can gradually develop. ****** Nina. 54524 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Rob M, It is good you post in small sections, because otherwise people may become weary. Our list is so busy, there is a chance people do not read all. As to diagrams, I think you can omit them, since we are just studying texts. It saves trouble, and after all we like the texts. You invite to discussion, so just a few remarks. Perhaps you could also mention Dhammapala who is about at the same time as Buddhaghosa, I believe. He has written helpful subcommentaries. op 10-01-2006 01:53 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > The Suttas were delivered for specific audiences; they were not > presented as a systematic philosophy. The Buddha said that after His > passing, the Dhamma should be the guide. To perform this function, a > systemization of the Dhamma was required. The systemization of the > Dhamma had already been started by Ven. Sariputta (Note 1) during the > time of the Buddha (see Sangnti Sutta, DN 33). > > During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the > First Council was convened to recite the Buddha's teachings. Though > Buddhaghosa later claimed that the Abhidhamma was recited at the > First Council, modern scholars believe that at the time of the First > Council, the Abhidhamma only existed as a set of matikas (a list of > categories) which were later developed independently by different > schools (Note 2). ------ N: Do you have some sources that corroborate this statement? Who are these modern scholars? Ven. Nyanaponika is not among them. --------- R: The Abhidhamma evolved because there was a need to > expand upon these matikas using precise, technical terms. Technical > terms are required because common language is subject to much > interpretation. These terms are a key feature of the Abhidhamma. ------ N: I am not so inclined to use the expression technical terms. Shall we say, terms expressing what is real in the ultimate sense? I myself find the terms used very precise and expressing what is real and what can be verified at this moment. I find that the the whole Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included, refers to the development of right understanding of what appears through the six doors. Also in the suttas the Buddha speaks about ultimate realities, see Kindred Sayings. Sarah and Rob K have written many posts on the Abhidhamma. You can find these in the archives. Buddhaghosa did not claim anything himself, he merely edited the oldest commentaries he found in Sri Lanka, in the Mahaavihara. Let me just mention one quote that Rob K drew our attention to and that refers to three Baskets (thus, not two) from the oldest time on: During our luncheon in a restaurant I discussed this subject with Lodewijk. For him the historical aspects are not relevant. He said: What I want to ask you: have you read the Books of the Abhidhamma themselves, the oporiginal texts themselves, such as the Dhammasangani and the Book of Analysis? The texts themselves are more convincing than historical arguments. When reading these one can find out that the Abhidhamma is in conformity with the Suttanta and Vinaya. We should compare the three parts of the Tipitaka. To conclude: studying the Abhidhamma is studying the dhammas appearing at this very moment, as Kh. Sujin says. I prefer this outlook. Read the Book of Analysis, for example the Analysis of Small Items. It helps me to know my own defilements, such as conceit that can arise on account of any imaginable object. Ch 17, [345]: We can check on account of what objects conceit arises. There are many, many eye-openers in the abhidhamma texts. Looking forward to your next posts, Nina. 54525 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15am Subject: to Ng Boon, Cetasikas nilovg Dear Ng Boon, Alan wrote to me: Nina. 54526 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. nilovg Hi Joop, op 09-01-2006 10:04 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > But what you said about accumulations, also after re-reading UP and > what Jon wrote about it, is not clear. From your answer I understand > that my idea that a accumulation is a dynamic and structured amount > of (another word for accumulation) cetasikas is wrong. > Nina: "[Cittas]… are not accompanied by accumulated cetasikas, I > would not put it that way. … Accumulations lie dormant and can > condition the arising of kusala or akusala at the present." > > Joop: how do you imagine this lieing dormant in time? ------- Let us talk now about the groups of anusayas, the latent tendencies of sense desire, aversion, etc. Latent tendencies do not arise with the citta, they are accumulated conditions that lie dormant in each citta, like microbes that are in a body and can cause sickness. ------ J: "Lie" in what? ------- N:In each citta that arises and then falls away.In this way they are as it were carried on. But they are not static, not permanent. Nothing is permanent. Thus, akusala cetasika that is desire arises with the citta, they fall away together and then the quality of akusala cetasika that arose goes on as an accumulated tendency, it goes on from citta to citta. ------- J:What is "dormant" (or "latent", another word I have read)? ------ N: They do not arise, do not appear, but still they are accumulated from citta to citta. That is their danger! ------- J: Why do this accumulations not fall away but are they (rather) > permanent? ------- N: They do not arise with the citta, thus, they do not fall away. They are latent. I understand that the subject is difficult. This text may clarify it: The Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², the ³Saddhammappakåsiní² under the Explanation (Niddesa) of ³Knowledge of Beings¹ Biasses and Underlying Tendencies², states: ³The word anusaya, latent tendency, is used in the explanation of latent tendency. Why is the name anusaya used? Because it lies dormant. What is called dormant? The defilements that cannot yet be eradicated. Truly, these defilements lie dormant in the succession of beings¹ cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore they are called anusaya, latent tendencies.² --------- J: What is the relation between "accumulations" and "fruit of kamma"; > are they the same? ------- N:No. Not only good and bad tendencies are accumulated, also kamma is accumulated and can produce result later on. Kamma relates to its result by kamma-condition. Also natural strong dependence-condition is necessary so that kamma can produce result. Good and bad tendencies that are accumulated can condition the arising of kusala citta and akusala citta, and the relation of the good and bad tendencies to the kusala citta and akusala citta they condition is natural strong dependence-condition. ------ J: Are this accumulations concepts or ultimate realities? > ..If they are ultimate realities, what kind: citta, cetasika, rupa? > ..If they are concepts, to which class of concept do they belong > according page 270/271 of Sujin's Survey? -------- N:This is what I translated from Thai: Thus, they are not concepts. This also goes for the wholesome cetasikas that have been accumulated. The fact that they have fallen away with the citta does not make them concepts. Nina. 54527 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 216, 217 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 216, 217 Intro to Vis. 216: In this section three reasons have been given why there are five khandhas. The first reason is explained in section 217, and the second and third in the following sections. 216. 3. 'As to neither less no more': but why are five aggregates, neither less nor more, mentioned by the Blessed One? (a) Because all formed things that resemble each other fall into these groups, (b) because that is the widest limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self, and (c) because of the inclusion by them of the other sorts of aggregates. ---------------------- ******* Text Vis. 217: (a) When the numerous categories of formed states are grouped together according to similarity,[81] materiality forms one aggregate through being grouped together according to similarity consisting in materiality; feeling forms one aggregate through being grouped together according to similarity consisting in feeling; and so with perception and the other two. So they are stated as five because similar formed things fall into groups. ------------------------ Note 81 taken from the Tiika. 'When all formed dhammas are grouped together according to similarity, they naturally fall into five categories. ------ N: , in Pali: sabbasa²nkhata, all conditioned dhammas. The dhammas that are classified as khandhas arise because of their appropriate conditions. They arise and fall away. --------- Text Tiika: Herein, it is the items that are the same owing to the sameness consisting respectively in "molesting", etc., that are to be understood as "similar". ------- N: All ruupas are grouped into the ruupa-khandha. They are the dhammas that do not experience anything. The commentary applies a word association of ruupa and ruppana, molesting. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha:²That which is afflicted (ruppati) is materiality (ruupa); that which comes to or is brought to change (vikaara) as a result of such opposing conditions as cold and heat’ is what is meant.² If there were no ruupa that is bodysense, there would not be affliction by heat, cold, hunger, flies, etc. All feelings are grouped together as feeling-khandha and even so all kinds of saññaa are grouped together as saññaa-khandha. As quoted before, the Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of the Abhidhamma and Co. p. 281 ) explains about feeling and saññaa being a separate khandha each: <... Because - of the dhammas involved in the round of rebirth- they constitute enjoyment and what facilitates that. For feeling occurs by way of enjoyment of the dhammas of the three levels, and when it occurs in the matter of the distorted view [N:vipallaasa or perversity] that perceives the beautiful in the ugly, recognition (saññaa) becomes a facilitator of that. Therefore, because they are the principal causes of sa.msaara, they are taught separately...> --------- Text Tiika: Among them, those that are strong in the volition whose nature is accumulating with the function of forming the formed, are called the formations aggregate. ------ N: Here the Tiika refers to cetanaa, volition, which is strong (balava) and which accumulates (ayuhaana), and which has the function of abhisa²nkhaara, kamma-formation. This is the second link of the Dependent Origination. Kamma is accumulated and produces vipaaka in the form of rebirth and vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. All other cetasikas, except feeling and saññaa are grouped together in sa²nkhaarakhandha. --------- Text Tiika: And the others, that is, contact, etc., which are devoid of the distinguishing characteristics of "being molested", etc., may also be so regarded under the generality of forming the formed. But the similarities consisting in touching are not describable separately by the word "aggregate", and so that is why no aggregates of contact, etc.,have been stated by the Perfect One who knows the similarities of dhammas. --------- N: Phassa, contact, and the other cetasikas are not separate khandhas. They are not a separate group with resembling characteristics, and therefore they are classified under the sa²nkhaarakhandha, the khandha of formations. -------- Text Tiika: "Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins there are who are asserters of eternity and declare the self and the world to be eternal, all do so depending and relying on these same five aggregates or on one or other of them" (cf. S.iii,46), and so on' (Pm.503). ------ N: In the following section (218) it is explained that wrong view arises on account of the five khandhas. In this section (217) it is shown that five khandhas are taught because dhammas that have similarity are grouped together as khandha. We have studied many details of each of the khandhas that are past, future, present; internal and external; gross and subtle; low and sublime; far and near. The naama-khandhas can be of four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. They can be of different planes of citta: of the sense sphere, or ruupa-jhaana, of aruupa-jhaana and lokuttara. They can arise in different planes of existence. Thus, the dhammas grouped in each of the five khandhas have many varieties, but they are grouped together according to similarity. The details given by the Tiika help us to have more understanding of the meaning of khandha and of the reasons why there are five khandhas. The teaching of the five khandhas is the teaching of citta, cetasika and ruupa, dhammas that appear in daily life through the six doorways. **** Nina. 54528 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - qualities of rupa. nilovg Dear Scott, op 10-01-2006 14:22 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Qualities of rupa are still rupa. I got it. I still > think there's something to what I was wondering about the relation of > lakhana rupas to jhana but will put this off until I can better > formulate a question. My apologies for being impulsive at the end of > the post. Not very mindful of me. ------ N: There was nothing impulsive, I can't remember ;-)) Do continue with your questions, as impulsive as you like. I do appreciate your sincere interest. It is difficult that characteristics and qualities of rupas are included in the twentyeight kinds. But as you study them you get used to this. Nina. 54529 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: The "positive" cause of a citta (Was DO vs 12 Fold Chain) htootintnaing Dear Charles D, Thanks for your reply. It makes sense that you wrote. Thanks for 'Upanisa Sutta' which shows T.D.O or Transcendental Dependent Orgination. With respect, Htoo Naing ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Htoo Naing, > I forgot to mention that if DO is more then just "the 12-links in a chain of > causation" (i.e., in reality it is "Causation"), then it could exist in even > in Arhats, even in a Buddha. > > For example, below are two chains of causation: One chain is conditioned by > the "True Mind," and the other is conditioned by a "Deluded Mind." > > The Links within True Mind: > Clear Understanding -- Great Aspiration -- Four Wisdoms -- Transformation > body -- Result Body -- Mindfulness of contact -- Mindfulness of Feeling -- > Four Immeasurable Minds -- Freedom -- Wondrous Being -- Wisdom of No-Birth > -- Wisdom of No-Death -- Clear Understanding. > > The Links within a Deluded Mind: > Ignorance -- Volition Action -- Consciousness -- Mind/Body -- 6 Sense organs > & their Objects -- Contact -- Feeling -- Craving -- Grasping -- Coming to Be > -- Birth - Sickness, Old age, & Death -- Ignorance. > > Or may be it is as follows in Arhats: > . Faith > . Contentment > . Rapture > . Calmness > . Bliss (unconditioned happiness) > . Mental Strength (Concentration) > . Wisdom and seeing things as really are > . Disenchantment > . Dispassion > . Deliverance > . The Wisdom that initiates cessation towards nibbana > . Faith > > Or 54530 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Jon (and KenH, Htoo) - > > Of course, only you stepped in (as a moderator should) and no-one else > had come in on this issue yet : >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for the word 'paggaha'. It is more than viiriya. Good. With regards, Htoo 54531 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:38am Subject: Re: Class Notes - Part 1 htootintnaing Dear Rob M, Before any comments and discussion may I post this to other groups? With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I will acknowledge that it is your class notes and is being posted at DSG. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > 0.1 Historical Perspective > > Brief History of Early Buddhism > > The time line shows the dates for major events in the development of > Theravada Buddhism. These dates are only approximate and may vary by > as much as two hundred years. > > 500 BCE: Life of the Buddha > 0 CE: Tipitaka written down > 500 CE: Buddhaghosa's commentaries > 1000 CE: Acariya Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha > > The First 500 Years > > The Suttas were delivered for specific audiences; they were not > presented as a systematic philosophy. The Buddha said that after His > passing, the Dhamma should be the guide. To perform this function, a > systemization of the Dhamma was required. The systemization of the > Dhamma had already been started by Ven. Sariputta (Note 1) during the > time of the Buddha (see Sangnti Sutta, DN 33). > > During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the > First Council was convened to recite the Buddha's teachings. Though > Buddhaghosa later claimed that the Abhidhamma was recited at the > First Council, modern scholars believe that at the time of the First > Council, the Abhidhamma only existed as a set of matikas (a list of > categories) which were later developed independently by different > schools (Note 2). The Abhidhamma evolved because there was a need to > expand upon these matikas using precise, technical terms. Technical > terms are required because common language is subject to much > interpretation. These terms are a key feature of the Abhidhamma. > > About one hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana, the Second > Council convened to discuss controversial points of Vinaya. This > council resulted in the split of the Mahasanghika (who later evolved > into the Mahayana school) from the traditionalist Sthaviravadins. The > main point of disagreement was the Mahasanghika's reluctance to > accept the Suttas and the Vinaya as the final authority on the > Buddha's teachings. > > The Third Council was convened by King Asoka about three hundred > years after the Buddha's Parinibbana. By this time, there were > eighteen schools of Buddhism and the Elder Moggaliputta Tissa wrote > Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) to clearly delineate the > Theravada position versus the positions of other schools. At this > point, the modern Pali Tipitaka (Note 3) was basically complete. > > Notes > 1. Ven Sariputta is often associated with the Abhidhamma; the > Sarvastivada school even attribute some of their Abhidharma texts to > Ven Sariputta > 2. While the Vinaya and Suttas of the different schools clearly > evolved from a common root, the Theravada Abhidhamma and the > Sarvastivada Abhidharma are quite different. > 3. Pitaka is the Pali word for "basket" and Tipitaka means "Three > Baskets". The Tipitaka is eleven times the size of the Christian > bible. > > Discussion welcome! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 54532 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > It is good you post in small sections, because otherwise people may become > weary. N: I am not so inclined to use the expression technical terms. Shall we say, > terms expressing what is real in the ultimate sense? > I myself find the terms used very precise and expressing what is real and > what can be verified at this moment. > I find that the the whole Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included, refers to the > development of right understanding of what appears through the six doors. > Also in the suttas the Buddha speaks about ultimate realities, see Kindred > Sayings. > > Sarah and Rob K have written many posts on the Abhidhamma. You can find > these in the archives. Buddhaghosa did not claim anything himself, he merely > edited the oldest commentaries he found in Sri Lanka, in the Mahaavihara. > > Let me just mention one quote that Rob K drew our attention to and that > refers to three Baskets (thus, not two) from the oldest time on: > > (Vin, 1V,344): "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to > instigate another, saying, Pray study the Suttas or Gathas or Abhidhamma > first and afterwards you will learn the Vinaya - there is no offence in > him," > In the Bhikkhuni Vibhanga Vin,1V,344( "A bhikkhuni is guilty of a minor > offence) if she questions on the Abhidhamma or Vinaya after getting > permission (to question) on the Suttanta, or on the Suttanta or Vinaya after > getting permission (to question) on the Abhidhamma, or on the suttanta or > Abhidhamma after getting permission (to question) on the Vinaya."......> > > During our luncheon in a restaurant I discussed this subject with Lodewijk. > For him the historical aspects are not relevant. He said: Abhidhamma, read the authentic texts of the abhidhamma, and above all: check > the Abhidhamma in and against daily life. The application in daily life is > what matters.> > > What I want to ask you: have you read the Books of the Abhidhamma > themselves, the oporiginal texts themselves, such as the Dhammasangani and > the Book of Analysis? The texts themselves are more convincing than > historical arguments. When reading these one can find out that the > Abhidhamma is in conformity with the Suttanta and Vinaya. We should compare > the three parts of the Tipitaka. > > To conclude: studying the Abhidhamma is studying the dhammas appearing at > this very moment, as Kh. Sujin says. I prefer this outlook. > Read the Book of Analysis, for example the Analysis of Small Items. It helps > me to know my own defilements, such as conceit that can arise on account of > any imaginable object. > Ch 17, [345]: youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being > respected; pride of prominence;...> > We can check on account of what objects conceit arises. > There are many, many eye-openers in the abhidhamma texts. > > Looking forward to your next posts, > > Nina. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Nina and all, Nina's comments are already complete. I am still thinking why people would think in a way that 'abhidhammaa' is later invention by scholars. With respect, Htoo Naing > 54533 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:21am Subject: Re: Class Notes - Part 1 htootintnaing Dear Rob M, Excellent post. I am looking forward to seeing coming posts. The following are not really comments. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- 0.1 Historical Perspective Brief History of Early Buddhism The time line shows the dates for major events in the development of Theravada Buddhism. These dates are only approximate and may vary by as much as two hundred years. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My belief is that Buddhism is Buddhism. But why 'Theravada' has to arise to modify is the matters diferences in opinion. I find it that the words themselves speak. Example; if someone use low terms then it already show up whether this arise from pure mind or unpure mind. 'He is inferior' already means 'I am superior'. Buddhism is so subtle that trueness checks themselves on the matter. --------------------------------------------------------------------- 500 BCE: Life of the Buddha 0 CE: Tipitaka written down 500 CE: Buddhaghosa's commentaries 1000 CE: Acariya Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nina already said there were other promiment commentaries. Buddhaghosa is not the only one but one of them. As Nina said Buddhaghosa did not claim these were his. Those who know Paa.li well will understand the name 'Buddhaghosa'. It means 'The Voice of The Buddha'. Buddha = Tathagata, The Buddha, Sugata, Bhagavaa Ghosa = voice Buddhaghosa did not distort the teachings. This is my belief. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The First 500 Years The Suttas were delivered for specific audiences; they were not presented as a systematic philosophy. The Buddha said that after His passing, the Dhamma should be the guide. To perform this function, a systemization of the Dhamma was required. The systemization of the Dhamma had already been started by Ven. Sariputta (Note 1) during the time of the Buddha (see Sangnti Sutta, DN 33). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Suttas are what are successively passed on by oral citation. These are actual words of The Buddha each and after every preaching by The Buddha. But all these suttas are what 'Venerable Anandaa' summarised. Otherwise there will be endless teaching words. As always there were specific audience and so sutta cannot be generalised. Systematisation does need. Otherwise it will like bearing of the actual copy of the world map in the real size. When Sariputta was living The Buddha was also living. If there was anything wrong The Buddha would not have passed Sariputta's teachings. The Buddha knew Sariputta very well in terms of wisdom even though Sariputta was not that perfect like Himself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the First Council was convened to recite the Buddha's teachings. Though Buddhaghosa later claimed that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council, modern scholars believe that at the time of the First Council, the Abhidhamma only existed as a set of matikas (a list of categories) which were later developed independently by different schools (Note 2). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Teachings were already there even before the first Council. The Council was just for making agreement. Abhidhammaa is not that simple. Even arahats may or may not know all the details as The Buddha did. Abhidhammaa is 'The Ocean of Dhamma'. All 500 arahats at that time seem did not decided whether to complete the whole list and explanation of each because it was so detail and Council had to take for many many months. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Abhidhamma evolved because there was a need to expand upon these matikas using precise, technical terms. Technical terms are required because common language is subject to much interpretation. These terms are a key feature of the Abhidhamma. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think 'technical terms are required' means for teaching purpose. But there are those who realise Dhamma and did not need any technical terms. -------------------------------------------------------------------- About one hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana, the Second Council convened to discuss controversial points of Vinaya. This council resulted in the split of the Mahasanghika (who later evolved into the Mahayana school) from the traditionalist Sthaviravadins. The main point of disagreement was the Mahasanghika's reluctance to accept the Suttas and the Vinaya as the final authority on the Buddha's teachings. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Divisions are usual. As soon as one become two there is division of opinion. When there is one there is no division. We do not need to study division. What we need to study is to study Dhamma and benefit this very life through realisation. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Third Council was convened by King Asoka about three hundred years after the Buddha's Parinibbana. By this time, there were eighteen schools of Buddhism and the Elder Moggaliputta Tissa wrote Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) to clearly delineate the Theravada position versus the positions of other schools. At this point, the modern Pali Tipitaka (Note 3) was basically complete. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is good of Mahaamoggaliputta Tissa Thera. But I do not think he showed the position but he reveal what is what and what is what should be. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Notes 1. Ven Sariputta is often associated with the Abhidhamma; the Sarvastivada school even attribute some of their Abhidharma texts to Ven Sariputta 2. While the Vinaya and Suttas of the different schools clearly evolved from a common root, the Theravada Abhidhamma and the Sarvastivada Abhidharma are quite different. 3. Pitaka is the Pali word for "basket" and Tipitaka means "Three Baskets". The Tipitaka is eleven times the size of the Christian bible. Discussion welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As Connie commented already this portion does not need further discussion. Ti-pitaka (three-baskets). Why? Because each stands on its own as different presentation of Dhamma. With much respect, Htoo Naing 54534 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/10/2006 6:49:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: We never experience non-experiences; on that we agree. Hi Howard The above remark that you agreed with -- was my whole point in responding to Larry's post. That post was advising someone to compare a "real experience" to a "non-experience." My point was that we cannot experience "non-experiences" or use them for comparison. TG 54535 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:01am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions dacostacharles Hi all, I believe you all are "splitting hairs," Exertion and Effort means the same things. Exertion is usually used to imply an exhausted, intense, overwhelming, or great effort (and success). Effort alone usually implies the "work or energy put into something." I say splitting hairs because when you think about it, we would have to be linguists with a specialty in semantics to gain "more or less" from the use of one synonym over the other. Also, "maybe" the subtle difference that exists in the Pali does exist in English but "it might be" so relative that it would have to change every so often and every time it enters a different group of people. To answer the questions: The Four Right Exertions are really part of the Noble Right Effort. Hope this helps..................................... Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Hi, Jon (and KenH, Htoo) - > >Tep: My question to you (and to all of us) is: Are these four right exertions at higher level than the "four right efforts", which is a factor of the Path? In other words, do the four right exertions give the monk greater fruits, greater benefits than the four right efforts? > >Why (or why not)? >Jon: >I think the wording from AN IV 14 you have quoted has the same >underlying meaning as the summary given by Htoo in his earlier post. >Could you elaborate a little on why you say they are not the same? >Thanks. Tep: As a matter of fact, the wordings (concerning exertions - paggaha) from my quoted sutta are not the same as those in Htoo's post (concerning efforts - viriya). Please see my post #54476 as to why they are not the same, although the end results are the same; i.e. leading to gaining insight (Vism. XX, 119). Tep 54536 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 1/10/06 5:16:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: > > Hi all, > > I believe you all are "splitting hairs," Exertion and Effort means the same > things. Exertion is usually used to imply an exhausted, intense, > overwhelming, or great effort (and success). Effort alone usually implies > the "work or energy put into something." > > I say splitting hairs because when you think about it, we would have to be > linguists with a specialty in semantics to gain "more or less" from the use > of one synonym over the other. Also, "maybe" the subtle difference that > exists in the Pali does exist in English but "it might be" so relative that > it would have to change every so often and every time it enters a different > group of people. > > To answer the questions: The Four Right Exertions are really part of the > Noble Right Effort. > > Hope this helps..................................... > > Best Regards, > Charles A. DaCosta > > ========================== Whoa! What is that, Charles? Omigod, I know! I vaguely remember it!! Why, it's good common sense!!! ;-))) With manic metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54537 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:53pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... KenH's Knots kenhowardau Hi Tep (and RobM), We were discussing the Sunna Sutta: --------------------------------- Tep: > Correction! I am sorry to say that the Buddha neither talked about the "ultimate sense", nor did he call the "All" (equivalently, "the world") paramattha dhammas. ---------------------------------- I give you the Rob M Award for that correction! :-) Rob M places a lot of emphasis on the absence (in the suttas) of the word "paramattha" even though no one can see why the terminology (as distinct from the meaning) is quite so important! Other studious DSG members have come up with a list of equivalent terms that *are* used in the suttas. One striking example I can remember is where the Buddha says, "In truth and reality there is no self." (Meaning; "In the ultimate sense there is no self," meaning'; "All paramattha dhammas bear the inherent characteristic, anatta.") ---------------------------------------------- T: > However, I agree with you that this is a good example about contemplating emptiness of the "All" (sabba dhamma). ----------------------------------------------- Yes, and what is the "All" that is empty? (quote)" The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self." (end quote) Why doesn't the Buddha say that the cheekbone and the chin, for example, are empty of self? It is because the eye is a paramattha dhamma whereas the cheekbone and other parts of the conventionally known body (including the conventionally known eye) are not. Only paramattha dhammas have inherent characteristics: concepts have nothing. -------------------- > > Ken H: >If we contemplated the meaning of *effort* in a similar way we would realise it was only a fleeting conditioned paramattha dhamma. The conventional meaning of effort (as in the effort to sit quietly) is ultimately an illusion and not what the Buddha taught at all. Tep: I am sorry, dear Ken, I don't follow you, sir. I have no idea how you applied the Teaching in the above sutta "in a similar way" to conclude that viriya "was only a fleeting conditioned paramattha dhamma". :-) Either you had an ability to read the sutta between the lines, or you simply interpreted it the way you wanted to interpret it. -------------------- My advice to you, Tep, is to have one aim in Dhamma study: Ask the question, "What is the All (what is ultimately real now - at this present moment)" and devote your entire efforts to finding the answer. Ken H 54538 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard and Charles D (also, Htoo and Jon) - It may appear that this thread came to a full stop with Howard's last words : >Howard: > Whoa! What is that, Charles? Omigod, I know! I vaguely remember it!! > Why, it's good common sense!!! ;-))) > But we may have overlooked Htoo's observation about the six perceptions that are called "the exertion to maintain". > > Htoo ( #54446) : Here are what I do not know. 1. skeletal perception 2. worm-eaten perception 3. livid perception 4. festering perception 5. falling aprt perception 6. bloated perception What is 'maintain' in connection with four right exertion? Tep: Can Charles' common sense answer Htoo's simple question above? {:<) Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Charles - > > In a message dated 1/10/06 5:16:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, > dacostas@P... writes: > > > > >Charles D: > > > > I believe you all are "splitting hairs," Exertion and Effort means the same things. Exertion is usually used to imply an exhausted, intense, > > overwhelming, or great effort (and success). Effort alone usually implies the "work or energy put into something." (snipped) > > To answer the questions: The Four Right Exertions are really part of the Noble Right Effort. > > > Howard: > Whoa! What is that, Charles? Omigod, I know! I vaguely remember it!! > Why, it's good common sense!!! ;-))) > 54539 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:00pm Subject: Re: Class Notes - Part 1 robmoult Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Before any comments and discussion may I post this to other groups? > ===== I would be honoured if you were to post it to other groups. Sharing the Dhamma gives me great joy. My only concern is that DSG is the only group on which I am active. How would questions from other groups be handled? Metta, Rob M :-) 54540 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:40pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... KenH's Knots buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend KenH (Attn. James, Howard) - I can tell that you are too eager to promote Khun Sujin's teachings on the paramattha dhamma so hard that the Buddha's Teachings have been overlooked. :-)) >Ken H: Why doesn't the Buddha say that the cheekbone and the chin, for example, are empty of self? It is because the eye is a paramattha dhamma whereas the cheekbone and other parts of the conventionally known body (including the conventionally known eye) are not. Only paramattha dhammas have inherent characteristics: concepts have nothing. Tep: First correction! The bones in a body are pathavi dhatu, and as such they are empty of self. Just read this sutta quote : "And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' ..." [MN 140 : Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta] Tep: Now, second correction! The Buddha, our greatest Teacher ever born, never said that bones were a "concept". As a matter of fact, he never even talked about paramattha dhammas or preferred them over the "concepts". Just read this sutta quote: "Great king, this was said by the Blessed One who knows & sees, worthy and rightly self-awakened: 'Come now, monks: reflect on this very body, from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin, full of all sorts of unclean things: "In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine."' This too is a reason, this too is a cause, great king, why young monks — black-haired, endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — without having played with sensual pleasures nevertheless follow the lifelong chaste life, perfect & pure, and make it last their entire lives." [SN XXXV.127: Bharadvaja Sutta] .......................... Tep: When I have more time I'll continue to respond to the rest of your post (#54537). Thank you for taking time in replying to my comments. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and RobM), > > We were discussing the Sunna Sutta: > > --------------------------------- > Tep: > Correction! I am sorry to say that the Buddha neither talked > about the "ultimate sense", nor did he call the "All" > (equivalently, "the world") paramattha dhammas. > ---------------------------------- > > I give you the Rob M Award for that correction! :-) Rob M places a > lot of emphasis on the absence (in the suttas) of the > word "paramattha" even though no one can see why the terminology (as > distinct from the meaning) is quite so important! > > Other studious DSG members have come up with a list of equivalent > terms that *are* used in the suttas. One striking example I can > remember is where the Buddha says, "In truth and reality there is no > self." (Meaning; "In the ultimate sense there is no self," > meaning'; "All paramattha dhammas bear the inherent characteristic, > anatta.") > > ---------------------------------------------- > T: > However, I agree with you that this is a good > example about contemplating emptiness of the "All" (sabba dhamma). > ----------------------------------------------- > > Yes, and what is the "All" that is empty? > > (quote)" The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a > self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or > of anything pertaining to a self." (end quote) > > Why doesn't the Buddha say that the cheekbone and the chin, for > example, are empty of self? It is because the eye is a paramattha > dhamma whereas the cheekbone and other parts of the conventionally > known body (including the conventionally known eye) are not. Only > paramattha dhammas have inherent characteristics: concepts have > nothing. > > -------------------- (snipped) 54541 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada lbidd2 TG: "My point was that we cannot experience "non-experiences" or use them for comparison." Hi TG, Why can't we compare experience and non-experience? In this context "non-experience" is concept. We are comparing concept and experience (aka "reality"). Of course the primary concept in Buddhist studies is "self". However, it is a valid point that this distinction between concept and reality is conceptual. That is why understanding this distinction isn't an insight knowledge. It is merely a pointer to satipatthana where insight is found. By "compare" I simply mean "notice the difference". Larry 54542 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:34pm Subject: Vism.XIV,218 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 218. (b) And this is the extreme limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self, that is to say, the five beginning with materiality. For this is said: 'Bhikkhus, when matter exists, it is through clinging to matter, through insisting upon (interpreting) matter, that such a view as this arises: "This is mine, this is I, this is my self". When feeling exists ... When formations exist ... When consciousness exists, it is through clinging to consciousness, through insisting upon (interpreting) consciousness, that such a view as this arises: "This is mine, this is I, this is my self" ' (S.iii,181-82). So they are stated as five because this is the widest limit as a basis for the assumption of the self and what pertains to self. *************************** 218. etaparama~nceta.m attattaniyagaahavatthu yadida.m ruupaadayo pa~nca. vutta~nheta.m ``ruupe kho bhikkhave sati ruupam upaadaaya ruupa.m abhinivissa eva.m di.t.thi uppajjati `eta.m mama, esohamasmi, eso me attaa´ti. vedanaaya, sa~n~naaya, sa"nkhaaresu, vi~n~naa.ne sati vi~n~naa.na.m upaadaaya vi~n~naa.na.m abhinivissa eva.m di.t.thi uppajjati `eta.m mama, esohamasmi, eso me attaa´´ti (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.207). tasmaa attattaniyagaahavatthussa etaparamatopi pa~nceva vuttaa. 54543 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:38pm Subject: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta buddhistmedi... Hi, all - Recently Htoo, Jon, Joop, and Howard (directly or indirectly) discussed the meanings of right effort versus the four right exertions. Htoo's question about the 'exertion to maintain' was "maintaining what?". I did some study to answer Htoo. I think the meditator maintains his 'theme of concentration(samadhi nimitta)' by untilizing the following six perceptions: skeleton perception, worm-eaten perception, livid perception, festering perception, falling-apart perception, and bloated perception. These perceptions are useful for developing 'mindfulness with regard to the body'(kaya-gata-satipatthana) that, when established, support samadhi. The clue is in MN 119. [MN 119] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' Tep: So this sutta clearly defines the six perceptions above (the Visuddhimagga also explains them) and also shows how they may be contemplated as 'kayagata satipatthana', the same way as stated in DN 22. However, uninformed pure Paramattha-dhammists would quickly reject this sutta as "useless" because, they will certainly jump to the conclusion: "these six perceptions are "concepts", not ultimate reality". Respectfully, Tep ============= 54544 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/10/2006 7:29:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, Why can't we compare experience and non-experience? In this context "non-experience" is concept. We are comparing concept and experience (aka "reality"). Of course the primary concept in Buddhist studies is "self". However, it is a valid point that this distinction between concept and reality is conceptual. That is why understanding this distinction isn't an insight knowledge. It is merely a pointer to satipatthana where insight is found. By "compare" I simply mean "notice the difference". Larry Hi Larry From my view, one cannot notice a "non-experience." A concept is not a "non-experience." A concept is imagination and the experience is imagining. "Mental imaging" or "mental ideation" is the experience. It is a mental formation. Another Example. If we see a mirage that appears to be water...the water doesn't exist. Nor do we experience a "non-existent water." What we do experience are the conditions that generated that delusion. Those conditions do exist and that is the experience...conditions of a flat surface reflecting blue skies for example. When we experience a "sense-of-self," a self doesn't exist nor do we experience a "self." What we experience is a "sense-of-self" and THAT does exist...i.e., as delusion. The Satipatthana Sutta makes much use out of conceptual analysis ... as insight requires practicing from a conceptual basis until the knowledge has matured and can be intuitively implemented directly upon feeling. TG 54545 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Charles, Htoo, and Jon) - In a message dated 1/10/06 6:59:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Hi, Howard and Charles D (also, Htoo and Jon) - > > It may appear that this thread came to a full stop with Howard's last > words : > > >Howard: > > Whoa! What is that, Charles? Omigod, I know! I vaguely > remember it!! > >Why, it's good common sense!!! ;-))) > > > > But we may have overlooked Htoo's observation about the six > perceptions that are called "the exertion to maintain". > > >>Htoo ( #54446) : > Here are what I do not know. > > 1. skeletal perception > 2. worm-eaten perception > 3. livid perception > 4. festering perception > 5. falling aprt perception > 6. bloated perception > > What is 'maintain' in connection with four right exertion? > =========================== Right effort has four aspects. The fourth involves maintaining. There is the following, for example from ATI at the following url: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html#ch5 _________________________ The nature of the mental process effects a division of right effort into four "great endeavors": to prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states; to abandon unwholesome states that have already arisen; to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen; to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen. _________________________ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54546 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma course - qualities of rupa. scottduncan2 "It is difficult that characteristics and qualities of rupas are included in the twentyeight kinds." Dear Nina, Thank you for your response. This is what I was getting hung up on alright. I was failing to appreciate this aspect of the literature. I think it is quite subtle and elegant to include, shall I say, "dynamic" aspects of rupas as paramattha dhammas. I think it reflects the sophistication of the teachings. Thank you as well for your kind words of invitation to continue posting questions. I want to thank all of you for your welcoming of me to the site. I am learning a lot. Sincerely, Scott. 54547 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada lbidd2 TG: "When we experience a "sense-of-self," a self doesn't exist nor do we experience a "self." What we experience is a "sense-of-self" and THAT does exist...i.e., as delusion." Hi TG, Yes, a delusion exists, but it isn't a delusion if something doesn't not exist. Are you still saying we can't compare what exists and what doesn't exist? Larry 54548 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:53pm Subject: Vis.XIV,219 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 219. (c) And also, since those other [sorts of aggregates] stated as the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue82 are comprised within the formations aggregate, they are included here too. Therefore they are stated as five because they include the other sorts. This is how the exposition should be known as to neither less nor more. ----------------------- Note 82. The aggregates of virtue, concentration, understanding, liberation, and knowledge and vision of liberation (S.i,99), etc. ************************ 219. yepi ca~n~ne siilaadayo pa~nca dhammakkhandhaa vuttaa, tepi sa"nkhaarakkhandhe pariyaapannattaa ettheva avarodha.m gacchanti. tasmaa a~n~nesa.m tadavarodhatopi pa~nceva vuttaati eva.m anuunaadhikato vinicchayanayo vi~n~naatabbo. 54549 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nagarjuna's doctrine and Theravada TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/10/2006 10:52:17 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: TG: "When we experience a "sense-of-self," a self doesn't exist nor do we experience a "self." What we experience is a "sense-of-self" and THAT does exist...i.e., as delusion." Hi TG, Yes, a delusion exists, but it isn't a delusion if something doesn't not exist. Are you still saying we can't compare what exists and what doesn't exist? Larry Hi Larry No. I'm saying that we can't compare an experience with a non-experience. Any attempt will require the mind recalling something from memory and that is based on experience and the recalling is a experience. TG 54550 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:46pm Subject: The Origin of the Mental Abilities ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Main Mental Abilities are Caused by specific Conditions! The origin of the ability of Faith is the desire to direct attention to a Decision! The origin of the ability of Energy is the desire to direct attention to Exertion! The origin of the ability of Awareness is the desire to direct attention to Establishing! The origin of the ability of Concentration is the desire to direct attention to Non-distraction! The origin of the ability of Understanding is the desire to direct attention to Seeing! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54551 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:23am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your effort and exertion doing research and sharing the theme to all of us. Beneficial. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, all - Recently Htoo, Jon, Joop, and Howard (directly or indirectly) discussed the meanings of right effort versus the four right exertions. Htoo's question about the 'exertion to maintain' was "maintaining what?". I did some study to answer Htoo. I think the meditator maintains his 'theme of concentration(samadhi nimitta)' by untilizing the following six perceptions: skeleton perception, worm-eaten perception, livid perception, festering perception, falling-apart perception, and bloated perception. These perceptions are useful for developing 'mindfulness with regard to the body'(kaya-gata- satipatthana) that, when established, support samadhi. The clue is in MN 119. [MN 119] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I included these in Dhamma Thread in detail. See those posts under sammaa-sati. I wrote it as 'contemplation on body foulness state 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9.' I wrote as 261 body-contemplations or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. As it is anupassanaa it is in the portion of sammaa-sati and not under samaa- vaayama. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: So this sutta clearly defines the six perceptions above (the Visuddhimagga also explains them) and also shows how they may be contemplated as 'kayagata satipatthana', the same way as stated in DN 22. However, uninformed pure Paramattha-dhammists would quickly reject this sutta as "useless" because, they will certainly jump to the conclusion: "these six perceptions are "concepts", not ultimate reality". Respectfully, Tep --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sannaa or perception is reality. Who would say sannaa is concept. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54552 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:25am Subject: Re: Class Notes - Part 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Before any comments and discussion may I post this to other groups? > > > ===== > > I would be honoured if you were to post it to other groups. Sharing the > Dhamma gives me great joy. > > My only concern is that DSG is the only group on which I am active. How > would questions from other groups be handled? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thanks for your permission. If there arise questions I will suggest them to join DSG and then they will be able to ask you directly. For the time being the Dhamma can be shared there. With respect, Htoo Naing 54553 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:39am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1 nilovg Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1. Chapter 2. Remembrance of the Dhamma. When we were visiting the Thai Temple in Bodhgaya, two neatly dressed boys with neckties entered. Young as they were, they recited for us the beginning of the Dhammasaùgani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma, enumerating all sobhana cetasikas that accompany kusala citta. They recited the Pali text without mistakes, helping each other. It was impressive to hear the Pali text so well recited. When we asked them about the meaning of kusala cittas and akusala cittas in daily life they could not answer our questions. Their teacher explained that the application of the Dhamma was a subject dealt with in the higher grades, not in the beginning. This shows that reciting and learning the terms by heart is very different from applying them in daily life. The understanding of the realities of daily life is the purpose of studying Abhidhamma. Acharn Sujin said to us: ³One does not know that studying Abhidhamma is right now. If one does not understand this moment, one does not study Abhidhamma.² We asked many questions during our pilgrimage, and Acharn Sujin always led us back to the dhamma appearing at the present moment. Without awareness and understanding of what appears now we shall not know what citta, cetasika and rúpa are. One may wonder what the difference is between thinking of realities and direct awareness of them. Sati arises with sobhana (beautiful) citta. There is sati of the level of dåna which is non-forgetful of generosity. There is sati of the level of síla which is non-forgetful with regard to abstinence from akusala. There is sati of the level of samatha which is mindful of the development of calm with a suitable meditation subject. There is sati of the level of satipatthåna which is mindful of one nåma or rúpa at a time in order to realize their true nature. We discussed sati of the level of satipatthåna time and again since it is important to have right understanding of what sati is and what its object is. We know that sati is a sobhana cetasika and not self, but have we really understood this? We learnt that sati is aware of one object at a time as it appears through one doorway at a time, but can we apply this knowledge? We have to listen again and again and consider in order to have more understanding. Acharn Sujin repeated three times: have more understanding. ***** Nina. 54554 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Joop, .... Hallo Nina Thanks for your reaction Skipping the details that are 'technical' in my eyes. I think this topic is not extremely difficult to understand, as you suppose. It is difficult to explain, to formulte the problem James sometimes has with your answers on a more elegant way. Especially difficult because there are hardly texts in the Tipitaka itself that refer to "accumulations". And because there is there danger that the explanation contradicts some Theravada-doctrines: (a) anicca and (b) there are two and no other number than two realities. A special problem in my eyes is that you (or the texts you quote) are using metaphores like "seeds", "dormant" with very vague bounderies between where the metaphorical meaning ends and the literal meaning starts. Within this context most of your answers are clear. I will not repeat the questions that are in my view not answered, I understand now better the difficulty in explaining this. Nina: Let us talk now about the groups of anusayas, the latent tendencies of sense desire, aversion, etc. Latent tendencies do not arise with the citta, they are accumulated conditions that lie dormant in each citta, like microbes that are in a body and can cause sickness. Joop: Talking about "microbes" is metaphoric, but clear is that it is "something" in the citta. But how can a citta arise and fall and a part of that citta (the in it lieing dormant anusayas) continue: that's a contradiction. Nina: They do not arise with the citta, thus, they do not fall away. They are latent. I understand that the subject is difficult. This text may clarify it: The Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², the ³Saddhammappakåsiní² under the Explanation (Niddesa) of ³Knowledge of Beings¹ Biasses and Underlying Tendencies², states: ³The word anusaya, latent tendency, is used in the explanation of latent tendency. Why is the name anusaya used? Because it lies dormant. What is called dormant? The defilements that cannot yet be eradicated. Truly, these defilements lie dormant in the succession of beings¹ cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore they are called anusaya, latent tendencies.² Joop: I'm sorry to say but this text does not clarify anything, it decribes, it's a linguistic exercise. It does not make any link to a Tipitaka-text and it does not say anything about the mechanism how latent tendency function in terms of the Abhidhamma-systematics. Joop (yesterday): Are this accumulations concepts or ultimate realities? …. Nina:This is what I translated from Thai: <… Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie dormant in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the four Paths (at the four stages of enlightenment). To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own distinct nature and characteristic.> … Joop (now): "latent tendencies" are not concepts and they are not one of the four kind of ultimate realities. So they belong to a third category. May I conclude that there are IN FACT not two but three realities: - concepts - citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana - latent tendencies and kamma, perhaps "conditions" belong to this category too It are my conclusions. If you think: if he is glad with this conclusions, let him live with it, then there is no need to react again. Metta Joop 54555 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Tep (and Charles, Htoo, and Jon) - Dear Howard, You wrote: The nature of the mental process effects a division of right effort into four "great endeavors": to prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states; to abandon unwholesome states that have already arisen; to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen; to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen. Htoo: When one is exactly doing satipatthaana then he is to say preventing any form of akusala. When one is exactly doing satipatthaana and if because of this and if sotapatti magga naana or stream-entering knowledge arise then all akusala that will give rise to lower unhappy rebirth are completely abandon. So the exertion is to arise sotapati magga or higher magga so that arisen akusala are abandoned. But not all akusala. The only abandoned will be kamma or rebirth-giving power. Examples are even The Buddha could not avoid arisen akusala kamma. Not arisen kusala are magga kusala. They are sotapatti and above magga. Maintain already arisen kusala is living in satipatthaana and not living in any other things. The exertion in any of these four are sammaa-vaayama. With Metta, Htoo Naing 54556 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 619 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In Dependent Origination there are 12 links. Each link is reality. These 12 links are 1. avijjaa (ignorance) 2. sa`nkhaara (formation/ fabrication) 3. vi~n~naa.naa (consciousness) 4. naama-ruupa.m (mentality-materiality) 5. sa.laayatanaa (6-sense-base ) 6. phasso (contact) 7. vedanaa (feeling) 8. tanhaa (craving) 9. upadaanaa (clinging) 10.bhavo (becoming/ existence ) 11. jaati (rebirth) 12. jaraa/mara.na (ageing/death) Link one is avijjaa. It is moha cetasika. Link two is sa`nkhaara. They are cetasikas except sannaa and vedanaa. The chief among these 50 cetasikas of sankhaara is cetana cetasika which is also known as kamma. Link three is vinnaana. It is consciousness and reality. Link four is naama-ruupam. Again they are realities. Link five is sa.laayatana. All these are realities. Link six is phassa. It is contact and it is a cetasika. Link seven is vedanaa. It is feeling and it is a cetasika. Link eight is tanhaa. It is craving and it is lobha cetasika. Link nine is upadaana and it is clinging. It is also lobha cetasika. Link ten is bhavo. It is kamma bhava or 'the existence of kamma' 'the becoming of kamma'. It is also reality. It is cetana cetasika. Link eleven is jaati. It is arising of naama-ruupa and naama-ruupa are realities. Link twelve is jaraa/marana. It is character of naama-ruupa and naama and ruupa are realities. The whole cycle with 12 links are all made up of realities. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54557 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:23am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 355 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] The anågåmí and the arahat fully understand the danger of sense-pleasures; they have no conditions for the arising of the canker of sensuous desire, kåmåsava, because it has been eradicated. When understanding of realities begins to develop it cannot yet achieve detachment from sense-pleasures. Some people are inclined to think that they must first of all become detached, before they can begin to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa. However, this is not the right way of practice. Right understanding of whatever reality appears, even if it is attachment, should be developed. Only paññå which knows nåma and rúpa as they are can eventually bring about detachment. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54558 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:37am Subject: In praise of SN 35 ( was Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) philofillet Hi Nina >Kh. Sujin's discussion with Eric, which was received here in > dsg by different people who had different reactions. Very interesting, this > shows our different accumulations. We are different from the first moment of > life. But of course each one of us in a seething clutter of factors as well, so we might receive something well one time, and be irritated at other times. I've posted about how my response to A. Sujin telling the man whose mother was dying that the mother important thing is to understand realities varied each time I heard it - once I found it cold and unhelpful, at other times I was stirred and encouraged. It tends to be the latter now. > Eric was explaining about the temple he had visited, his teacher, the Dalai > Lama who had been there. Then Kh Sujin stressed to him: you have to develop > your own understanding. This has a deep meaning. I noticed the concern and > sense of urgency in her voice. I heard a great thing yesterday, in a talk from last year. Jon and Sarah had a question that you had requested be asked something very detailed about the tiny tiny particles of visible object, or something. She refused to answer, though the questioners pursued the point gently. The gist was "what is the point of thinking about things that we cannot know ourselves when there is seeing now, hearing now, realities that are arising and can be the object of awareness." I thought it was very charming how forceful she was on the point. > Perhaps Eric would come only once in a > lifetime, and have no opportunity to hear what she wanted to >explain. Well, if there were conditions for it, he could listen to her hundreds of time until understanding arose more and more often. I don't know if I will ever have a chance to meet her (no money for the Bangkok trip this year) but I certainly am grateful to hear her. > One may listen to many teachers, but one has to develop understanding > oneself. I said to Lodewijk that Kh. Sujin's pointing to seeing now, visible > object now may irritate some people. He said that this used to irritate him, > but that he now sees the importance of this. The great thing about appreciating the importance of this is that it really is something that can be developed at any time, anywhere. There is always seeing. There are not always troublesome people to deal with or wonderful people for whom we can sense attachment, or conditions for dana or sila, but there is always seeing, always hearing, always touching. The ayatanas are arising constantly, and sparking proliferation when there is not right understanding, when there is unwise atteniton. And there is unwise attention. Moha and lobha leap up after every moment of seeing, with rare, rare exceptions. But we begin to know what's going on, and that's the first step. > Yes, it is so obvious, right at hand. We all hear. We all taste. We all > touch. > We read in the suttas about all these realities, but reading and reflecting > is not as clear as direct understanding of what is right at hand. And it's always right at hand. Phil 54559 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:54am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo - Thank you for the prompt reply. > Htoo: > > Sannaa or perception is reality. Who would say sannaa is concept. > Tep: The meditation objects in MN 119 such as a 'corpse cast away in a charnel ground', a 'skeleton smeared with flesh & blood', a 'skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons', etc. have been rejected by paramattha experts as being concepts too. There were several discussions on this issue by DSG, TripleGem, and others. Even the six perceptions of these corpse-related objects have been rejected because they are "derived" perceptions from the meditator's nimitta and vision, not the "realilities" that arise and pass away too fast for the mind to follow. Did I miss the point? Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your effort and exertion doing research and sharing the > theme to all of us. Beneficial. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > (snipped) > > Tep: So this sutta clearly defines the six perceptions above (the > Visuddhimagga also explains them) and also shows how they may be > contemplated as 'kayagata satipatthana', the same way as stated in > DN 22. However, uninformed pure Paramattha-dhammists would > quickly reject this sutta as "useless" because, they will certainly > jump to > the conclusion: "these six perceptions are "concepts", not ultimate > reality". 54560 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:58am Subject: Sukin on pariyatti/patipatti plus comments (pt 1) philofillet Hi all Cleaning out some Word files and found this that I had started to write last year, re the post by Sukin on pariyatti/patipati that was so well-received. I added some comments to the ones that I wrote last year before storing it away and forgetting about it. Not much of interest. Thanks for letting me indulge myself. Sukin > When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very > phenomena. Ph (in May 2005): This is a very good way to put it – "bent towards." But not permanently, the "bending towards" is also conditioned – it comes and goes. When we understand this we don't try too hard. We are sensitive towards the many moments of bending toward the truth, but we don't insist on them or try to force our overworked brains to try to hold on to them. Ph (in January 2006) I still think this. I am aware of the tendency to try to "catch moments" because I have heard so often about how important it is to understand paramattha dhammas arising at this moment, but I also can sense that shallow panna is steering Phil away from wanting too much too soon. Sukin :The level of understanding may not be such that the > characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, > there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and > with some confidence. Ph (May 2005): Let me play devil's advocate here. How can we say that there is a "lower level" of panna? We have leared this from Kh sujin and others, but is it confirmed in Abhidhamma? I have trouble understanding it, because we learn about paramattha dhammas that have certain characteristics. The characteristic of this lover level of panna seems so different from the penetrative characteristic (not that I've experienced it) of the higher or deeper panna that it seems hard to accept them as the same paramattha dhamma. Do you know what I mean? I go through life (and through DSG) believing in and referring to this lower level of panna, but perhaps I would now like to know more about whether it is reality a reality, a paramattha dhamma, or not. It is always dealing with concepts as objects, right, since it is not deep enough to penetrate to realities. Isn't it perhaps a concept too? Ph (Jan 2006) This is an interesting question, Oh Phil May 2005! I still wonder about this sort of thing, but the difference is now I probably wouldn't ask to have it sorted out for me because coming to understand what is meant by panna in its various degrees can only really be understand by coming to develop panna. But it's a good point, Mr. Last-Year-Me. We have to be aware of getting easy comfort out of thinking that this panna is something that can be had and used so easily, the way many believe metta is something that can be had and used easily. Now I think that I see more clearly that pariyatti is studying dhammas that are arising, pariyatti is not in the book, and the habit of studying the moment develops in line with the gradual deepening of understanding. For now there is too much of trying to do it – fine, that's conditioned. But like with all wholesome habits it will gradually become more natural. This is clinging to a notion about people, but I imagine that for Nina, for example, it is becoming very natural to hear about a paramattha dhamma, or read about one, and to go to the meaning of that dhamma at this moment. She (I imagine, I cling) has developed this habit, or more technically, the habit has developed. This is pariyatti at work, this is panna "working its way." Sukin >At such beginning level, there is already a > planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of > satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood > through direct experience. Ph: (2005) Yes, well said. There is no need to say that we should do this or that, but we know what needs to be done. (2006) And we know that it can be done, but not by a person who is eager for results. Only by conditions, by sankhara khandas working their way. This helps us to relax, in some ways, and frees us to be more diligent about appreciating moments of kusala when they do arise, frees us to be motivated by their conditioning power. Phil 54561 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Effort to burn defilements Four Right Exertions buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thanks for the useful information. > > Htoo: > > What is 'maintain' in connection with four right exertion? > > > =========================== > Howard: Right effort has four aspects. The fourth involves maintaining. There > is the following, for example from ATI at the following url: > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html#ch5 > > _________________________ > > The nature of the mental process effects a division of right effort into four > "great endeavors": > to prevent the arising of unarisen unwholesome states; > to abandon unwholesome states that have already arisen; > to arouse wholesome states that have not yet arisen; > to maintain and perfect wholesome states already arisen. > _________________________ > Tep: An example of the "perfect wholesome states already arisen" is a samadhi nimitta. Regards, Tep ======== 54562 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Nina) - I think your conversation, copied at the end of this post, is an interesting and important one. As I see it, to speak of "latent tendencies" as not arising and ceasing but stored, lying dormant, and being passed along from mindstate to mindstate is, if not a mere poetic manner of speaking, a substantialist style of formulation that is contrary to the anatta/anicca thrust of the Dhamma. As I see it, current kamma, by which I mean current volition and volitional action, serves as condition (right here and now) for future reactions, reactions that occur when all the requisite conditions for them have occurred. Nothing at all is stored like seeds in a container. It is merely a matter of this/that conditionality: "(1) When this is, that is. (2) From the arising of this comes the arising of that. (3) When this isn't, that isn't. (4) From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that." — A X.92 The language of seeds and storage and accumulation and dormancy has a substantialist/"continuationist" connotation that is influenced by our "propensity" to atta-view. But it is a language that is difficult to avoid. I even use it when I use the term 'propensity', but it is essential, I think, that this sort of speech be recognized as mere manner of speaking! The fact of the matter with regard to "inclinations", "tendencies", and "propensities," as I see it, is nothing more than idappaccayata. The very ocurrence of original kamma is the casting of the die, and other conditions that arise [the state of the ground on which the die is cast, how the wind blows, etc, to maintain the (admittedly poor) analogy] determine how and when the die comes to rest. Each action of a certain sort is, then and there, a condition for the repetition of such actions in the future. And this *seems* to be an accumulation, but nothing is accumulated. The die is cast at the very time of the action. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/11/06 4:41:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > >Hi Joop, > .... > > Hallo Nina > > Thanks for your reaction > Skipping the details that are 'technical' in my eyes. > I think this topic is not extremely difficult to understand, as you > suppose. It is difficult to explain, to formulte the problem James > sometimes has with your answers on a more elegant way. > Especially difficult because there are hardly texts in the Tipitaka > itself that refer to "accumulations". And because there is there > danger that the explanation contradicts some Theravada-doctrines: (a) > anicca and (b) there are two and no other number than two realities. > > A special problem in my eyes is that you (or the texts you quote) are > using metaphores like "seeds", "dormant" with very vague bounderies > between where the metaphorical meaning ends and the literal meaning > starts. > > Within this context most of your answers are clear. I will not repeat > the questions that are in my view not answered, I understand now > better the difficulty in explaining this. > > > Nina: Let us talk now about the groups of anusayas, the latent > tendencies of sense desire, aversion, etc. Latent tendencies do not > arise with the citta, they are accumulated conditions that lie > dormant in each citta, like microbes that are in a body and can cause > sickness. > > Joop: Talking about "microbes" is metaphoric, but clear is that it > is "something" in the citta. But how can a citta arise and fall and a > part of that citta (the in it lieing dormant anusayas) continue: > that's a contradiction. > > > Nina: They do not arise with the citta, thus, they do not fall away. > They are latent. > I understand that the subject is difficult. This text may clarify it: > The Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², the > ³SaddhammappakÃ¥sinò > under the Explanation (Niddesa) of ³Knowledge of Beings¹ Biasses and > Underlying Tendencies², states: > ³The word anusaya, latent tendency, is used in the explanation of > latent tendency. Why is the name anusaya used? Because it lies > dormant. What is called dormant? The defilements that cannot yet be > eradicated. Truly, these defilements lie dormant in the succession of > beings¹ cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore they > are called anusaya, latent > tendencies.² > > Joop: I'm sorry to say but this text does not clarify anything, it > decribes, it's a linguistic exercise. It does not make any link to a > Tipitaka-text and it does not say anything about the mechanism how > latent tendency function in terms of the Abhidhamma-systematics. > > > Joop (yesterday): Are this accumulations concepts or ultimate > realities? …. > Nina:This is what I translated from Thai: > <… Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie > dormant in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the > four Paths (at the four stages of enlightenment). > To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own distinct > nature and characteristic.> … > > Joop (now): "latent tendencies" are not concepts and they are not one > of the four kind of ultimate realities. So they belong to a third > category. May I conclude that there are IN FACT not two but three > realities: > - concepts > - citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana > - latent tendencies and kamma, perhaps "conditions" belong to this > category too > > It are my conclusions. If you think: if he is glad with this > conclusions, let him live with it, then there is no need to react > again. > > Metta > > Joop > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 54563 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:02am Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... KenH's Knots kenhowardau Hi Tep, ----------------------------- T: > I can tell that you are too eager to promote Khun Sujin's teachings on the paramattha dhamma so hard that the Buddha's Teachings have been overlooked. :-)) ------------------------------ I don't accept that at all, although I do owe my paramattha-oriented understanding of the Dhamma to Khun Sujin (via DSG), and I know that the majority of modern Buddhists prefer a conventional, non- paramattha, understanding. However, the paramattha one is found in the ancient commentaries, and I believe that those commentaries have simply spelt out in plain language (for later generations who needed it spelt out) the interpretation that was universally accepted (and didn't need to be spelt out) in the days of the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------ > >Ken H: Why doesn't the Buddha say that the cheekbone and the chin, for example, are empty of self? It is because the eye is a paramattha dhamma whereas the cheekbone and other parts of the conventionally known body (including the conventionally known eye) are not. Only paramattha dhammas have inherent characteristics: concepts have nothing. > Tep: First correction! The bones in a body are pathavi dhatu, and as such they are empty of self. Just read this sutta quote : "And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, ------------------------- If I am too eager to promote the paramattha perspective, you must be too eager to promote the dull, boring, bleedingly obvious perspective. :-) Do you really think the Bodhisatta spent countless aeons in samsara so he could become a Buddha and teach us, "Bones don't last very long"? Of course not - the Dhamma is profound, not banal. Everyone knows when they are walking that they are walking, and everyone knows that bones are devoid of an eternal soul. So why do you prefer such banal interpretations of the Satipatthana Sutta and the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta (and all the other suttas)? If you read the commentaries they will set you straight, and they won't be as diplomatic as I am (joke): they will tell you even "dogs and jackals" know those conventional things. ------------------------------------------ > Tep: Now, second correction! The Buddha, our greatest Teacher ever born, never said that bones were a "concept". As a matter of fact, he never even talked about paramattha dhammas or preferred them over the "concepts". Just read this sutta quote: "Great king, this was said by the Blessed One who knows & sees, worthy and rightly self-awakened: 'Come now, monks: reflect on this very body, from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin, full of all sorts of unclean things: "In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine."' This too is a reason, this too is a cause, great king, why young monks — black-haired, endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — without having played with sensual pleasures nevertheless follow the lifelong chaste life, perfect & pure, and make it last their entire lives." [SN XXXV.127: Bharadvaja Sutta] ------------------------------------ I know from experience not to attempt sutta interpretations without expert help. But if I had to guess, I would say this sutta was describing the non-attachment of monks. Non-attachment (alobha) can have concepts as objects. More importantly, however, monks were also taught to know that concepts of the body were mere conventional designations. They designate rupa - a paramattha dhamma - and it is rupa that has to be known with right understanding. Therefore, monks know the body parts with alobha (as in the Bharadvaja Sutta) but they also know them with "right discernment" (as in the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta). That is, they know that the only absolutely real body is the fleeting, conditioned paramattha dhamma, rupa. Ken H 54564 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:21am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. Meditation especially satipatthaana meditation or vipassanaa meditation or insight meditation is higher practice and there always are opbstacles to these higher practices. To prevent these obstacles and obstructions one should have done four guardian meditations that protect the individual who does these four guardian meditation. These four guardian meditations are 1) Buddhaanussati 2) Metta sati 3) asubha sati or kaayagataasati 4) mara.naanussati As satipatthaana is higher meditation when this is done beings who are not good enough may frighten the meditators. This is protected by Buddhaanussati. Meditation while in progress may meet aversive things. These are prevented by metta sati. The third one is meditation on foulness of body. This helps prevent saraaga citta or thoughts of sensuous desire. The fourth meditation is recollection of death. While doing satipatthaana meditation one may do any of four meditations. 1)kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana 2)vedanaanupassanaa satipatthaana 3)cittaanupassanaa satipatthaana 4)dhammaanupassanaa satipatthaana The matter that you focused is already in kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana of mahaasatipatthaana sutta and it appears as navasivathika pabba. I myself once developed a state of mind that cognised that my physical body became swollen, bluish, livid, blackish, and bloated. I was not shocked because I was well instructed. Well... these are concepts... DSG would say. But what I had been doing was that I just looked at the citta that arose. They arose and fell away. Atthakathaa and tiikaa also explain these parts. But we all need to have a clear distinction between concepts (I prefer pannatti rather than the word concept because 'concepts' may contain paramattha things, :-)) and realities or paramattha dhamma. Paramattha dhamma is 'attha dhamma'. They are 'essence dhamma'. They are meaningful dhamma. Parama means 'the most' 'highest' 'greatest' 'supreme'. Sorry if I go in another way but paramattha and pannatti problems are always there. It is not just problems at DSG. It is everywhere. It is there at anytime. Because there are people who cannot see paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi, Htoo - > > Thank you for the prompt reply. > > > Htoo: > > > > Sannaa or perception is reality. Who would say sannaa is concept. > > > > Tep: The meditation objects in MN 119 such as a 'corpse cast away in a > charnel ground', a 'skeleton smeared with flesh & blood', a 'skeleton > without flesh or blood, connected with tendons', etc. have been > rejected by paramattha experts as being concepts too. There were > several discussions on this issue by DSG, TripleGem, and others. Even > the six perceptions of these corpse-related objects have been rejected > because they are "derived" perceptions from the meditator's nimitta > and vision, not the "realilities" that arise and pass away too fast > for the mind to follow. > > Did I miss the point? > > > Regards, > > > Tep > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Tep, > > > > Thanks for your effort and exertion doing research and sharing the > > theme to all of us. Beneficial. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > (snipped) > > > > > Tep: So this sutta clearly defines the six perceptions above (the > > Visuddhimagga also explains them) and also shows how they may be > > contemplated as 'kayagata satipatthana', the same way as stated in > > DN 22. However, uninformed pure Paramattha-dhammists would > > quickly reject this sutta as "useless" because, they will certainly > > jump to > > the conclusion: "these six perceptions are "concepts", not ultimate > > reality". > 54565 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:08am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 620 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In Dependent Origination there are 12 links. The last two links are jaati or rebirth and jaara/mara.na or ageing/death. When these two links are examined they are the name of conditionality of realities. Both links are about naama-ruupa. The first one is arising in a life as initiation and the other one is ceasing in a life as the last event. But Bodhisatta started with jaraa-mara.na as initiation of discovery of this D.O. When Bodhisatta did these contemplation there happened that there arise naama-ruupa and they again lead to vinnaana and vinnaana lead to naama-ruupa and naama-ruupa lead to vinnaana and there is an inner cycle of endless manner. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54566 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:13am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta buddhistmedi... Hi, Htoo - I have a personal question for you. > Htoo: > Parama means 'the most' 'highest' 'greatest' 'supreme'. > > Sorry if I go in another way but paramattha and pannatti problems > are always there. > > It is not just problems at DSG. It is everywhere. It is there at > anytime. Because there are people who cannot see paramattha dhamma. > Tep: I appreciate your telling me that I cannot see the paramattha dhamma. The question is : How do you see "paramattha dhamma", Htoo ? With appreciation for your frankness, Tep {:<|)} ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply. Meditation especially satipatthaana > meditation or vipassanaa meditation or insight meditation is > higher practice and there always are opbstacles to these higher > practices. > (snipped) > The matter that you focused is already in kaayaanupassanaa > satipatthaana of mahaasatipatthaana sutta and it appears as > navasivathika pabba. > > I myself once developed a state of mind that cognised that my > physical body became swollen, bluish, livid, blackish, and bloated. > > I was not shocked because I was well instructed. Well... these are > concepts... DSG would say. > > But what I had been doing was that I just looked at the citta that > arose. They arose and fell away. > > Atthakathaa and tiikaa also explain these parts. > > But we all need to have a clear distinction between concepts (I > prefer pannatti rather than the word concept because 'concepts' may > contain paramattha things, :-)) and realities or paramattha dhamma. > > Paramattha dhamma is 'attha dhamma'. They are 'essence dhamma'. They > are meaningful dhamma. (snipped) > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > (snipped) 54567 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations. jwromeijn Hallo Howard, Nina Months ago I utterd my surprise that in DSG so many times is written about atta and hardly about anicca. My theory was: people fighting against their strong ego, talk most times about atta people (like me) fighting their strong ontological need, talk most times about anicca My questions to Nina, and my conclusions, are an example of my ontological need. Your reaction, Howard (see below), is a good medicine against that need. To me it's stuff for contemplation. Thanks; and I'm curious in the reaction of Nina on your ideas. Still, to make things more complex, three Sutta-quotes I found (with help of Nyatiloka's dictionary); but there it is not problematic (I think), because stated in conventional language. Metta Joop Anguttara Nikaya VII.11 Anusaya Sutta Obsessions (1) (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.) "Monks, there are these seven obsessions.[1] Which seven? "(1) The obsession of sensual passion. "(2) The obsession of resistance. "(3) The obsession of views. "(4) The obsession of uncertainty. "(5) The obsession of conceit. "(6) The obsession of passion for becoming. "(7) The obsession of ignorance. "These are the seven obsessions." Note 1. This term -- anusaya -- is usually translated as "underlying tendency" or "latent tendency." These translations are based on the etymology of the term, which literally means, "to lie down with." However, in actual usage, the related verb (anuseti) means to be obsessed with something, for one's thoughts to return and "lie down with it" over and over again ============================================ Anguttara Nikaya VII.12 Anusaya Sutta Obsessions (2) "Monks, with the abandoning & destruction of the seven obsessions, the holy life is fulfilled. Which seven? The obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, the obsession of ignorance. With the abandoning & destruction of these seven obsessions, the holy life is fulfilled. "When, for a monk, the obsession of sensual passion has been abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising; when, for him, the obsession of resistance... the obsession of views... the obsession of uncertainty... the obsession of conceit... the obsession of passion for becoming... the obsession of ignorance has been abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising: this is called a monk who has cut through craving, has turned away from the fetter, and -- by rightly breaking through conceit -- has put an end to suffering & stress." ============================================ The term also occurs in DN 33, Sangiti Sutta: The seven latent tendencies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Joop (and Nina) - > > I think your conversation,... , is an > interesting and important one. As I see it, to speak of "latent tendencies" as not > arising and ceasing but stored, lying dormant, and being passed along from > mindstate to mindstate is, if not a mere poetic manner of speaking, a > substantialist style of formulation that is contrary to the anatta/anicca thrust of the > Dhamma. As I see it, current kamma, by which I mean current volition and > volitional action, serves as condition (right here and now) for future reactions, > reactions that occur when all the requisite conditions for them have occurred. > Nothing at all is stored like seeds in a container. It is merely a matter of > this/that conditionality: > > "(1) When this is, that is. > (2) From the arising of this comes the arising of that. > (3) When this isn't, that isn't. > (4) From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that." â€" A X.92 > > The language of seeds and storage and accumulation and dormancy has a > substantialist/"continuationist" connotation that is influenced by our > "propensity" to atta-view. But it is a language that is difficult to avoid. I even > use it when I use the term 'propensity', but it is essential, I think, that this > sort of speech be recognized as mere manner of speaking! The fact of the > matter with regard to "inclinations", "tendencies", and "propensities," as I see > it, is nothing more than idappaccayata. The very ocurrence of original kamma > is the casting of the die, and other conditions that arise [the state of the > ground on which the die is cast, how the wind blows, etc, to maintain the > (admittedly poor) analogy] determine how and when the die comes to rest. Each action > of a certain sort is, then and there, a condition for the repetition of such > actions in the future. And this *seems* to be an accumulation, but nothing is > accumulated. The die is cast at the very time of the action. > > With metta, > Howard 54568 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/11/06 10:43:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Howard, Nina > > Months ago I utterd my surprise that in DSG so many times is written > about atta and hardly about anicca. My theory was: > people fighting against their strong ego, talk most times about atta > people (like me) fighting their strong ontological need, talk most > times about anicca > > My questions to Nina, and my conclusions, are an example of my > ontological need. > Your reaction, Howard (see below), is a good medicine against that > need. > To me it's stuff for contemplation. Thanks; and I'm curious in the > reaction of Nina on your ideas. > > Still, to make things more complex, three Sutta-quotes I found (with > help of Nyatiloka's dictionary); but there it is not problematic (I > think), because stated in conventional language. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think you're right on target here. This is ordinary speech that doesn't go into detail. There is no implication of substantiality, storage, seeds, and so on just in using the term 'obsession'. To be obsessed with something is merely to have that phenomenon repeatedly arise, afflicting the mind. And the particular phenomena listed here that do repeatedly arise, afflicting the mind, are sensual passion, resistance, views, uncertainty, conceit, passion for becoming, and ignorance. ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta > > Joop > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54569 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Abhidhamma robmoult Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > During the rains retreat following the Buddha's Parinibbana, the > > First Council was convened to recite the Buddha's teachings. Though > > Buddhaghosa later claimed that the Abhidhamma was recited at the > > First Council, modern scholars believe that at the time of the First > > Council, the Abhidhamma only existed as a set of matikas (a list of > > categories) which were later developed independently by different > > schools (Note 2). > ------ > N: Do you have some sources that corroborate this statement? Who are these > modern scholars? Ven. Nyanaponika is not among them. ===== In this message, I will only reply this first question. I will reply to other comments in a subsequent post. My first source is A. K. Warder in his book, "Indian Buddhism", p 202, under the heading, "The first rehearsal of the Tipitaka" he writes as follows: On the third pitaka which should make up the Tipitaka (`Three Pitakas') there is disagreement. The Sthaviravada and Mahasanghika versions do not mention its recitation, and since the agreement of these two schools should establish the oldest available textual tradition it appears as there were originally only two pitakas. Whether a Matika or Abhidharma was actually recited at the First Rehearsal or not, all the early schools were equipped with a third Abhidharma Pitaka as we shall see when we come to discuss them. From the same book, p 218-219, Warder writes as follows: It is doubtful, as we saw above, whether any Abhidharma texts such as we find current in the schools were recited at the First Rehearsal. Perhaps nothing more than a Matika then existed, the extent of which is very difficult to determine. By comparing the available Abhidharma texts however, we are led to the conclusion that already within the first two centuries after the parinibbana, and in a great part before the First Schism, a substantial development had taken place. It is true that among the available texts if the schools there is not a single work which can be shown to be common even to two schools, let alone to all. Perhaps if we had a Mahasanghika text (apart from the very late Tattvasiddhiastra of the Bahusrutika school) our picture would be different, but since we find even two branches of the Sthaviravada (the Sthaviravada proper and the Sarvastivada) differing widely in their texts it is not probably (though not absolutely impossible) that the Mahasanghika Abhidharma agreed with either of them. My second source is Fumimaro Watanabe in his book, "Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma". The first 65 pages of this book discuss the origin on the Abhidhamma philosophy. The sections are: 1. Introduction 2. On the Polysemy of the word `Dhamma' 3. The conception of the Abhidhamma and its characteristics 4. Abhidhamma and Matika 5. The systemization of the Matikas In part 3, Watanabe lists the instances of the term "Abhidhamma" in the Suttas and Vinaya and provides an explanation of each within the specific context. On page 20, Watanabe writes as follows: In deciding what the term abhidhamma means, it is important for certainty to refer to the whole context in which the term is used. I. B. Horner stresses this point. She collects the usages of abhidhamma and abhivinaya from the Suttas and Vinaya Pitakas and examines them minutely ("Abhidhamma, Abhivinaya in the First Two Pitakas of the Pali Canon" IHQ Vol XVII No. 3 Sept 1941, pp 219-310) and as a result she uses the expression "(in) further-dhamma, (in) further-discipline" in some cases and the expression "(in) what pertains to the dhamma, (in) what pertains to discipline" in some cases. We see that she takes the best of care of translating various terms in Pali into English. It is certain that the meaning of the term abhidhamma is debatable, since this term must have gone through several fluctuations before coming to stand as the title of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Thus, according to her, the particular meaning ascribed to this term in any one context must depend largely on the sense, linguistic style and terminology of that whole context, which should therefore be considered on its own merits. However, her dual interpretations are so flexible that it is difficult to grasp the conception of the Abhidhamma common in the Nikayas and Agamas. My third source is G C Pande in his book, "Studies in the Origins of Buddhism". This 600 page book compares the major Suttas of the Pali Nikayas and compares them linguistically to each other as well as to the Sanskrit Agamas. Based on this analysis, certain Suttas are identified as being "earlier" than others. On p 1 and 2 of this text, Pande writes: The relative lateness of the Abhidhamma Pitaka is manifest. It probably grew out of the matikas (Winternitz, History of Indian Literature II, p 166) and is found in only two schools - Theravada and Sarvastivada (the Dharmaguptas and the Kasyapiyas were also supposed to have had an Abhidharmiapitaka [see EMB II 163, 165] but there were subsets of the Sarrvastivada group). Takakusu (JPTS 1905, p161) tells us: "Comparing the two sets of Abhidharma works as far as is accessible to me, I do not find anything in form or in matter which could lead us to suppose that they were the same, though they treat as a matter of course, of more or less similar subjects." Perhaps the most striking resemblance is to be noted between the Puggalapannati and the Sangitiparyayapada as both follow the Anguttara method. But the contents of the two do not correspond. It appears that the Abhidhammas are in fact a systemization and development of the doctrines of the suttas along sectarian lines. (Cf Glasebapp, ZDMG 1938 408 - 413). Their growth belongs to the post- Nikaya period. A century has passed since Takakusu did his comparison of the Theravada Abhidhamma and the Sarvastivada Abhidharma. I was given a recently published 350-page book on the Sarvastivada Abhidharma written by Bhikkhu K L Dhammajoti ("Sarvastivada Abhidharma" published by Centre for Buddhist Studies, Sri Lanka 2002). Having done my own personal comparison (definitely not as detailed as that done by Takakusu), I would have to agree with his conclusion; these two texts are quite different from each other. I have read that the Suttas and Vinaya of the various schools clearly come from a common source and that the Pali version is likely the oldest version. However, because it appears that the Theravada Abhidhamma and the Sarvastivada Abhidharma do not spring from a common source (other than the Matikas), I cannot be convinced that the Pali version is the "original and one true version" as is indicated in Buddhaghosa's Introduction to the Atthalasini. So what is my view of the Theravada Abhidhamma? Well, I see the Suttas and Vinaya as purely canonical whereas I see the Theravada Abhidhamma as quasi-cannonical. In other words, in my mind the Abhidhamma does not quite have the same stature as the Suttas and Vinaya. Given the conservative nature of the Theravada (as compared to the Mahasanghika - I am not at all comfortable with the tri-temporal ontological arguments used by the Sarvastivadins), I am convinced that much of the Theravada Abhidhamma springs from the time of the Buddha. However, I suspect that some systemization and perhaps minor embellishment happened after the Buddha's parinibbana. Nevertheless, I am convinced that the Theravada Abhidhamma is critical to understanding the Suttas and meditative experiences. Nina, I know that my view does not agree with yours (or Rob K's, Sarah's or many others). I am not convinced that I am correct and I am not saying that I believe that you are wrong. However, what I have written here represents my "inclinations". Metta, Rob M :-) 54570 From: Vijita Teoh Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:57am Subject: Don't regret the past. Don't worry the future. Observe the present. vijitateoh Dear Sobhana & Karuna, I agree with Sobhana's statement regarding everyone has tough time to go through but the matter is how we encounter all the problems that come at the same time? Both of you knew of my hard time that I had encountered. But I am happy to go through such period because it had made me a new person. I learned Dhamma & put every knowledge into practical mode, I learned more & more about life & Dhamma. We are always a new person every moment, everyday. But we still cling to this "self" as "I". This concept is indeed needed to practise the Dhamma but it is equally important to know the time of detachment to oneself. Letting go is just a word but many knew this word in theory, not in practical. Even some may argue that they understand this word exactly what it means but only a few may do it in the real practical sense. The first time I felt the strong letting go feeling is during meditation retreat when I felt piti-sukha. I started to realise a lot of things & feel the inner happiness. I even thought of going to solitude for my meditation progress, "letting go" everything, my family & exactly "everything". But panna brought me back to my family. From then, I don't talk unneccessary things. That's good, to avoid akusala kamma. I observe myself every moments to avoid unwise act. We can't change anything that had been done in the past. But we may learn from our mistakes, not to be careless again. Therefore, it is unwise to regret whatever had past. We, too, can't make things happen exactly according to our will because it will depend on other conditions that govern its happening. We may plan, but it is still unknown if everything will go on as planned, because whatever may happen is the effect of other causes. For example, we may plan to go for a holiday. But when the time draw near, tons of work keep us stay back until the planned holidays had past. So, why worry when evrything will happen due to other causes. Worry can't make things work as we wish. It will only dump more rubbish into our already congested mind. The conclusion is to observe ourself not to do any unwise act NOW. Let me tell you my experience with a man who wish to hang himself. He is my friend's relative. I was lucky enough to meet him due to a phone call made to inform him that we are coming to meet him. He told me that he waited for our arrival or else, he had decided to hang himself in the room while pointing and crying during confession. I asked him if he knew himself & his livelihood. His reply was he don't really know himself but his life was in bad luck. I told him that there are only a few things that we knew but there are many things that we don't know. Killing ourself will not solve the problems. But we are putting ourself in the next episode of unknown. We don't know where we are going after this death, but we know this life can change from good to bad or bad to good. This is more certain than the next life. When he started to tell me about his bad times, I told him my formula of don't regret the past, don't worry the future, observe the present. Finally, he got a job the next day & I visited him 3 days later, a different, happier person. The problem is don't know the practical "letting go". Life have to be simple, just like the Buddha's rule on the monks' requisite. When we are too complicated, life become burdened with too much trouble & our mind will be the sole victim. The remedy is to meditate & increase our wisdom. With higher wisdom, we ought to solve any problems with confidence. We are able to see a problem with thorough consideration before giving a final word. I see the act of forgiving others whether by words or action is mere rituals. Other religion may see it as compulsory but forgiving in the heart is even better as it is a practical "letting go". For example, if 'Y' don't forgive 'Z' for some mistakes done, it is 'Y' that suffer dosa. Mistakes done by 'Z' is another chapter in the kamma. Sadhu Vijita Teoh Butterworth, Penang Sobhana Saw Cheng Hup wrote: 5/1/2006 Dear Karuna TAKING ONE THING AT A TIME................ LIFE IS EVER CHALLENGING......................... Everyone wants a good life. Recently, I delivered a speech in my association on thier 26th anniversary day. I said " No one wants a terrible and hard life ". The way to overcome is to regularly do dana,upkeep the precepts and do practise meditation. Lord Buddha taught us many many things. Lord Buddha understood the hard life a fellow human being shall face. But, HE taught more........ Not to be reborn as an animal, hungry ghosts, asura or fallen into hells. HE had more to teach ............ This simple speech of mine caught some attention from the listeners. It's the truth! In private talk, we know everyone has thier own problem. Some try to solve it by many " ways" like fortune telling, wearing charms, shifting this and that, consulting mediums [ choui ang kong ], praying to this and that. It is only normal for many toaists and even many other races. Malays go to Bomohs for the same purposes. Indians do something like Chinese counterparts.Christian, too do it thier ways. WHY ? Buddhists attend talks in temples by virtous Sangha, do Dana, observe the precepts, transfer merits to our departed ones and devas etc, making offering to Sangha etc etc. It is almost the same.........except we learn to be very mindful of our words, thoughts and deeds........finding a way not to create fresh bad kamma......diluting our bad kamma. By now, Karuna, I think you have understood the ways to do that. No one is an in born Angel or Saint. But, when we strive hard, we will get something good. Happiness is prime........... We must learn to forgo our bad past.... Everyone, you know and I know have bad experiences in thier life. The rich, the poor or even the famous, have thier bad bad past.... Believe that ? But, do not live in the past....live in the present moment with full confidence... You sound that only Buddha can help you. Yes, but with His Sutta ~ Nikaya... read MANGALA SUTTA,RATANA SUTTA, SIGALAVODA SUTTA etc and you will slowly understand more..... Karuna, No one can help you overcome your kamma if you, yourself do not put in the Right Effort [ Eight Fold Paths ]. No one is free from problems. It cannot never be...... even the dead needs the help from his relatives who transfer the merits to them. Believe that ? Therefore, you are beginning to stand up tall......a different man with a more matured mind.... I shall tell you more IF we have time to meet.... I shall contact you.... MAY YOU BE WELL AND HAPPY SADHU SADHU SADHU Namaskara sobhanasaw@... 54571 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 621 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Ageing/death is inevitable. Yet beings do not fear in real sense. Because of uncertainty they ever forget to think about their death. Whenever thinking on death happens it seems painful for them. We are under contract that we have to live in this very life. This contract already includes when we have to die. The problem is that no one can see whoever will die at what moment. What is sure is that as we have been born we are bound to die sooner or later in this life. Death is inevitable. Why? Because we have been already born. This birth is called jaati or birth or rebirth. This jaati is initiation of the whole life and it serves as a contract. We are following all the details that the contract dictates. Between jaati (rebirth) and mara.na (death) there are many details that the contract includes. These dhamma are not the same for all and this is individual matters depending on their past lives' deeds. These uncertain dhamma that we might face in this very life are 1.byaadi (disease), 2.jaraa (apparent ageing in some kinds of beings like human beings and lower beings like animals) 3.soka (sorrow) 4.parideva (lamentation) 5.dukkha (physical pain) 6.domanassa(mental pain or aversion) 7.upayaasaa(despair) 8.appiyehi sampayogo (association with dislikes) 9.piyehi vippayogo (dissociation with likes) 10.yampi iccha.m na labhati (not getting what one wants) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 54572 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. -- Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/11/2006 8:43:25 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: Hallo Howard, Nina Months ago I utterd my surprise that in DSG so many times is written about atta and hardly about anicca. My theory was: people fighting against their strong ego, talk most times about atta people (like me) fighting their strong ontological need, talk most times about anicca My questions to Nina, and my conclusions, are an example of my ontological need. Your reaction, Howard (see below), is a good medicine against that need. To me it's stuff for contemplation. Thanks; and I'm curious in the reaction of Nina on your ideas. Still, to make things more complex, three Sutta-quotes I found (with help of Nyatiloka's dictionary); but there it is not problematic (I think), because stated in conventional language. Metta Joop Hello Joop If I may comment... I believe investigating impermanence is equally important to -- no-self or suffering. Here are a couple of quotes... “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way that is suitable for attaining Nibbana. Listen to that…. And what, Bhikhhus, is the way that is suitable for attaining Nibbana? Here, a Bhikkhu sees the eye as impermanent, he sees forms as impermanent, he sees eye-consciousness as impermanent, he sees eye-contact as impermanent, he sees as impermanent whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. “He sees the ear as impermanent … the nose … the tongue … the body … He sees the mind as impermanent, he sees mental phenomena as impermanent, he sees mind-consciousness as impermanent, he sees mind-contact as impermanent, he sees as impermanent whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. “This, Bhikkhus, is the way that is suitable for attaining Nibbana.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1212) “Further, Meghiya, a monk possesses wisdom; he is equipped with that wisdom which sees into the rise and fall of phenomena, which is noble and penetrative, leading to the complete destruction of suffering. …he should cultivate the perception of impermanence for eliminating the conceit ‘I am’. In one who perceives impermanence, the perception of non-self becomes firmly established;and one who perceives non-self achieves the elimination of the conceit ‘I am ’ and attains Nibbana in this very life.â€? (The Buddha . . . Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 229) Below is the way I see it... In Buddhist circles, it is often remarked that -- Impermanence and affliction are relatively easy to understand but that no-self is very difficult to understand. But the “relatively easy to understandâ€? impermanence and affliction is not a full understanding of those issues and it is not the understanding that makes progress in insight. The full(er) understanding of impermanence and affliction are as difficult to understand as that of no-self. The full understanding of these three attributes – impermanence, affliction, and no-self, and the depth of understanding them, so as to cultivate insight, comes from penetrating causality. Causality (or Dependent Origination) is the state of nature responsible for impermanence, affliction, and no-self – in the sense the Buddha taught it. None of these three attributes of nature can be fully understood by approaching them as individual factors. Yet all three can well be understood by investigating “conditionalityâ€? as the central factor that the conescient attributes of impermanence, affliction, and no-self rest upon. I.E., conditionality is a state of impermanence, affliction, and no-self; and impermanence, affliction, and no-self are the attributes of conditionality. [One qualification to the preceding statement is that -- affliction only arises as a co-factor of conditionality when the “consciousness componentâ€? has also arisen.] By understanding the principles of causality; the principles of impermanence, no-self, and suffering are also understood. By believing them to be separate factors to investigate, I don't believe any of them can be understood. TG 54573 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:47am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi, Htoo - I have a personal question for you. > Htoo: > Parama means 'the most' 'highest' 'greatest' 'supreme'. > > Sorry if I go in another way but paramattha and pannatti problems > are always there. > > It is not just problems at DSG. It is everywhere. It is there at > anytime. Because there are people who cannot see paramattha dhamma. > Tep: I appreciate your telling me that I cannot see the paramattha dhamma. The question is : How do you see "paramattha dhamma", Htoo ? With appreciation for your frankness, Tep {:<|)} -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I did not tell you cannot see or can see. But paramattha-pannatti problems are long lasting problems before DSG appears. I posted as a reply to your post. But I did know that I was writing what are not in the line you wrote. That is why I concluded that there always are paramattha-pannatti problems. I know you are yes-no person who does like the very direct answer. You started this reply post as 'you have a personal question for me'. But so far I have not answer your question. I avoid in the beginning because there is swaying. But as I know you do like yes-no and direct answer I have to answer your personal question. Your question was 'how do I see paramattha dhamma'? Is that difficult? I have already said that paramattha dhamma is 'attha dhamma'. Attha means 'essence' or 'core meaning' 'nucleus meaning'. I see 'sound' as 'sound'. I see 'smell' as 'smell'. So the answer is 'I see paramattha dhamma as they are'. How? = ans: as they are With respect, Htoo Naing 54574 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:53am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 355 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (g) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] > > The anågåmí and the arahat fully understand the danger of > sense-pleasures; they have no conditions for the arising of the > canker of sensuous desire, kåmåsava, because it has been > eradicated. When understanding of realities begins to develop it cannot yet achieve detachment from sense-pleasures. ***Some people are inclined to think that they must first of all become detached, before they can begin to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa. However, this is not the right way of practice. Right understanding of whatever reality appears, even if it is attachment, should be developed. Only paññå which knows nåma and rúpa as they are can eventually bring about detachment. ***** > (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) > > Metta, > > Sarah --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, :-)) ***Some people are inclined to think that they must first of all become devoided of wrong-view, before they can begin to develop anything that right. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: The Journey to nibbana has to be free from wrong-view before the journey starts, :-)) > ====== > 54575 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. nilovg Hi Howard, Joop. op 11-01-2006 14:02 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Hi, Joop (and Nina) - > > I think your conversation, copied at the end of this post, is an > interesting and important one. As I see it, to speak of "latent tendencies" as > not > arising and ceasing but stored, lying dormant, and being passed along from > mindstate to mindstate is, if not a mere poetic manner of speaking, a > substantialist style of formulation that is contrary to the anatta/anicca > thrust of the > Dhamma. As I see it, current kamma, by which I mean current volition and > volitional action, serves as condition (right here and now) for future > reactions, > reactions that occur when all the requisite conditions for them have occurred. > Nothing at all is stored like seeds in a container. It is merely a matter of > this/that conditionality: > > "(1) When this is, that is. > (2) From the arising of this comes the arising of that. > (3) When this isn't, that isn't. > (4) From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that." ‹ A X.92 > > The language of seeds and storage and accumulation and dormancy has a > substantialist/"continuationist" connotation that is influenced by our > "propensity" to atta-view. But it is a language that is difficult to avoid. I > even > use it when I use the term 'propensity', but it is essential, I think, that > this > sort of speech be recognized as mere manner of speaking! The fact of the > matter with regard to "inclinations", "tendencies", and "propensities," as I > see > it, is nothing more than idappaccayata. The very ocurrence of original kamma > is the casting of the die, and other conditions that arise [the state of the > ground on which the die is cast, how the wind blows, etc, to maintain the > (admittedly poor) analogy] determine how and when the die comes to rest. Each > action > of a certain sort is, then and there, a condition for the repetition of such > actions in the future. And this *seems* to be an accumulation, but nothing is > accumulated. The die is cast at the very time of the action. --------- N: Howard, you formulated it very carefully. As you say, it is difficult to express in language. I do not think it is only kamma that is accumulated, and now we come to another point that is relevant to the whole idea of accumulation. Not every kusala citta or akusala citta is kamma. When dealing with akusala (leaving aside kusala for now) there are three levels: coarse: the transgressions, medium: akusala but not motivating bad deeds, and subtle: latent defilements. I do not agree with Ven. Thanissaro to explain anuseti, to sleep, as to sleep over. The Yamaka Book of the Abhidhamma and Co. tell us a great deal about latent tendencies. I find the three levels important, they remind us of the danger of akusala that can arise at any time. Ven. Nyanaponika also speaks in his abh studies about those kusala and akusala inclinations that are not kamma.See p. 122, the potentialities, and the soil for their arising. The meanings of uppanna, arisen. Dhammas that may possibly arise in the future. I tried to explain to Joop that there is a connection in this stream of cittas that is our life, that there is on the other hand no annihilation and nothing lasting, eternal. That the middle way has to be kept. We have to be careful not to be immersed in theories and abstractions. Therefore, I look at daily life, using now conventional expressions for the sake of explaining about cittas, which are paramattha dhammas. In Lodewijk's family, the children were all different. He had no talent for sports, but he had for music. His brother had talents for sports. Lodewijk has a feeling for antiques, he learnt this from his parents. Such inclinations do not come from nowhere. Why is your handwriting different from Joop's? Why is your style, your way of expressing yourself different from Joop's? The cittas move your hand when writing, the accumulated inclinations in the citta make you express yourself in such or such a way. It does not come from nowhere and where else than in the citta of this moment are these accumulated talents, inclinations?There is only the citta at this moment and this moment, and so on. One citta at a time. I cannot explain it in a better way, but if I think of something else, I shall write it. See also my letters to Phil today. Nina. 54576 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] In praise of SN 35 ( was Atta -sa~n~na (was Re: Sa~n~na) nilovg Hi Phil, op 11-01-2006 12:37 schreef Phil op philco777@...: we might receive something well one time, and be irritated > at other times. ----- N: It has to be the right moments, depending on several factors. -------- Ph: Jon and > Sarah had a question that you had requested be asked something very > detailed about the tiny tiny particles of visible object, or > something. She refused to answer, though the questioners pursued the > point gently. The gist was "what is the point of thinking about > things that we cannot know ourselves when there is seeing now, > hearing now, realities that are arising and can be the object of > awareness." I thought it was very charming how forceful she was on > the point. ------- N: Some details about how many groups with visible object would have to impinge so that it can be seen. I don't worry now, and I get the point. Going on with things we cannot know now distracts from understanding this very moment. To me the details of how accumulations operate is such a point. ------- Ph:> >> Perhaps Eric would come only once in a >> lifetime, .. > Well, if there were conditions for it, he could listen to her > hundreds of time until understanding arose more and more often. I > don't know if I will ever have a chance to meet her... -------- N: Many conditions have to associate for hearing the right dhamma from the kaliyanamitta. Hearing is the result of kamma, it depends on kamma, merit in the past, as the Expositor explains. Living or being in the right place. Being teachable! Ready to receive the dhamma. This is due to accumulated inclinations, accumulated understanding. Some friends like to come to India, but due to sickness in the family they could not join. All this is not due to accident, it depends on several types of conditions. Ph... There are not always troublesome people to > deal with or wonderful people for whom we can sense attachment, or > conditions for dana or sila, but there is always seeing, always > hearing, always touching. ... > > And it's always right at hand. ------- N: Your posts are appreciated, Nina. 54577 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sukin on pariyatti/patipatti plus comments (pt 1) nilovg Hi Phil, What a good idea, your different reactions. It shows that paññaa can be accumulated. Paññaa is accumulated. A new impression is added all the time, and this shows that accumulations are not static. op 11-01-2006 13:58 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Sukin > When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a > reality, experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent > towards this very >> phenomena. > > Ph (in May 2005): This is a very good way to put it – "bent > towards." But not permanently, the "bending towards" is also > conditioned – it comes and goes. When we understand this we don't > try too hard. ------------- > Ph (May 2005): Let me play devil's advocate here. How can we say > that there is a "lower level" of panna? ... I would now like to know more about whether it is...reality a reality, a paramattha dhamma, or not. It is always dealing > with concepts as objects, right, since it is not deep enough to > penetrate to realities. Isn't it perhaps a concept too? > > Ph (Jan 2006) This is an interesting question, Oh Phil May 2005! I > still wonder about this sort of thing, but the difference is now I > probably wouldn't ask to have it sorted out for me because coming > to understand what is meant by panna in its various degrees can only > really be understand by coming to develop panna. > But it's a good point, Mr. Last-Year-Me. We have to be aware of > getting easy comfort out of thinking that this panna is something > that can be had and used so easily, the way many believe metta is > something that can be had and used easily. ------------ N: Excellent. Understanding that paññaa can be accumulated is important. Otherwise one may feel hopeless and helpless. Now we see that even one moment of paññaa, very rich man, as Ven. Dhammadharo said. --------- >Ph: Now I think that I see more clearly that pariyatti is studying > dhammas that are arising, pariyatti is not in the book, and the > habit of studying the moment develops in line with the gradual > deepening of understanding. For now there is too much of trying to > do it – fine, that's conditioned. But like with all wholesome > habits it will gradually become more natural. This is clinging to a > notion about people, but I imagine that for Nina, for example, it is > becoming very natural to hear about a paramattha dhamma, or read > about one, and to go to the meaning of that dhamma at this moment. > She (I imagine, I cling) has developed this habit, or more > technically, the habit has developed. This is pariyatti at work, > this is panna "working its way." ------- N: You picture it too rosy. The habit is only very, very, very slowly developing. ______ > > Sukin >At such beginning level, there is already a >> planting the seed of understanding which relates to the > development of >> satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be > understood >> through direct experience. ---------- N: Yes, I like Sukin's words. The simile of the seed shows us that paññaa can grow. Nina. 54578 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. nilovg Hi Joop, See my letter to Howard and you. A few points left. op 11-01-2006 10:39 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > Joop: Talking about "microbes" is metaphoric, but clear is that it > is "something" in the citta. But how can a citta arise and fall and a > part of that citta (the in it lieing dormant anusayas) continue: > that's a contradiction. ------ N: See Ven. Nyanaponika for microbes, just to explain.The lokuttara magga-cittas eradicate latent tendencies. Lying dormant; they are not eradicated. quote:. Why is the name anusaya used? Because it lies > dormant. What is called dormant? The defilements that cannot yet be > eradicated. Truly, these defilements lie dormant in the succession of > beings¹ cittas because they cannot yet be eradicated. Therefore they > are called anusaya, latent > tendencies.² > > Joop: I'm sorry to say but this text does not clarify anything, it > decribes, it's a linguistic exercise. It does not make any link to a > Tipitaka-text and it does not say anything about the mechanism how > latent tendency function in terms of the Abhidhamma-systematics. >-------- N: This is not the aim of the Abhidhamma: latent tendency function in terms of the Abhidhamma-systematics. > Development of understanding by studying this moment, that is Abhidhamma, no mechanism involved. ------ > To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own distinct > nature and characteristic.> … > > Joop (now): "latent tendencies" are not concepts and they are not one > of the four kind of ultimate realities. So they belong to a third > category. May I conclude that there are IN FACT not two but three > realities: > - concepts > - citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana > - latent tendencies and kamma, perhaps "conditions" belong to this > category too ------ N: "latent tendencies" are ultimate realities; cetasikas. Nina. 54579 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 1/11/06 3:06:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: "latent tendencies" are ultimate realities; cetasikas. > ======================= Well, perhaps we're not as close on this issue as I speculated! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54580 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thank you very much for your post. I doubt that we are, at-bottom, very different in perspective on this matter. I think it may be more one of formulation. In a message dated 1/11/06 2:58:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Therefore, I look at daily life, using now conventional expressions for the > sake of explaining about cittas, which are paramattha dhammas. > In Lodewijk's family, the children were all different. He had no talent for > sports, but he had for music. His brother had talents for sports. Lodewijk > has a feeling for antiques, he learnt this from his parents. Such > inclinations do not come from nowhere. Why is your handwriting different > from Joop's? Why is your style, your way of expressing yourself different > from Joop's? The cittas move your hand when writing, the accumulated > inclinations in the citta make you express yourself in such or such a way. > It does not come from nowhere and where else than in the citta of this > moment are these accumulated talents, inclinations?There is only the citta > at this moment and this moment, and so on. One citta at a time. > I cannot explain it in a better way, but if I think of something else, I > shall write it. > ======================== There is no doubt that we each have our distinctive talents, inabi;ities, and inclinations. It is what that actually comes down to in reality that is at issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54581 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:54pm Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta. A Lucky Guy. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo : You are a lucky man. > Htoo: > Your question was 'how do I see paramattha dhamma'? > > Is that difficult? > > I have already said that paramattha dhamma is 'attha dhamma'. Attha > means 'essence' or 'core meaning' 'nucleus meaning'. > > I see 'sound' as 'sound'. > I see 'smell' as 'smell'. > > So the answer is 'I see paramattha dhamma as they are'. > > How? = ans: as they are > Tep: So you see the paramattha dhammas the way they really are. Congratulations ! Yours truly, Tep ======== 54582 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:20pm Subject: Information about S.N. Goenka buddhatrue Hi Howard and All, Here is an interesting site about the vipassana techniques of S.N. Goenka: http://www.vipassana-cult.co.uk/ Just thought I would share. Metta, James 54583 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:27pm Subject: Re: Effort to burn defilements... KenH's Knots buddhistmedi... Hi, KenH - The true spirit of dhamma discussion is often lost -- when one fails to see only the Dhamma in the discussion because of his inability to stay above the personality views that arise and fall away in less than a billionth second {:<|). >KenH :Everyone knows when they are walking that they are walking, and everyone knows that bones are devoid of an eternal soul. So why do you prefer such banal interpretations of the Satipatthana Sutta and the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta (and all the other suttas)? Tep: The "banal interpretations" [Tep: First correction! The bones in a body are pathavi dhatu, and as such they are empty of self. Just read this sutta quote : ...] were the response to the trivial question [KenH : Why doesn't the Buddha say that the cheekbone and the chin, for example, are empty of self? It is because the eye is a paramattha dhamma whereas the cheekbone and other parts of the conventionally known body (including the conventionally known eye) are not.] But the subtle purpose of the first correction is to prove that bones and other internal organs are legitimate meditation objects in the Satipatthana Sutta and the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta. Another purpose of my "banal interpretations" is to prove that your remark on concepts [KenH: Only paramattha dhammas have inherent characteristics: concepts have nothing.] is false. >KenH :If you read the commentaries they will set you straight, and they won't be as diplomatic as I am (joke): they will tell you even "dogs and jackals" know those conventional things. Tep: I remember having seen the banal remark that dogs and jakals know when they are walking-- such remark appeared several times before at the DSG message board and have already become a trite ! However, I don't think the poor animals know that bones are legitimate meditation objects (because they don't know how to read the suttas). :-)) >KenH : I know from experience not to attempt sutta interpretations without expert help. But if I had to guess, I would say this sutta was describing the non-attachment of monks. Non-attachment (alobha) can have concepts as objects. Tep: What does 'alobha' have anything to do with concepts? On the other hand, can anyone with attachment follow the paramattha dhammas that quickly arise and fall away within a billionth second? >KenH : More importantly, however, monks were also taught to know that concepts of the body were mere conventional designations. They designate rupa - a paramattha dhamma - and it is rupa that has to be known with right understanding. Therefore, monks know the body parts with alobha (as in the Bharadvaja Sutta) but they also know them with "right discernment" (as in the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta). That is, they know that the only absolutely real body is the fleeting, conditioned paramattha dhamma, rupa. Tep: I don't know about that. Did they tell you so, or were you once a tipitaka-educated monk? Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > ----------------------------- > T: > I can tell that you are too eager to promote Khun Sujin's > teachings on the paramattha dhamma so hard that the Buddha's > Teachings have been overlooked. :-)) > ------------------------------ (snipped) > > I know from experience not to attempt sutta interpretations > without expert help. But if I had to guess, I would say this sutta > was describing the non-attachment of monks. Non-attachment (alobha) > can have concepts as objects. > > More importantly, however, monks were also taught to know that > concepts of the body were mere conventional designations. They > designate rupa - a paramattha dhamma - and it is rupa that has to be > known with right understanding. Therefore, monks know the body parts > with alobha (as in the Bharadvaja Sutta) but they also know them > with "right discernment" (as in the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta). That is, > they know that the only absolutely real body is the fleeting, > conditioned paramattha dhamma, rupa. 54584 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Information about S.N. Goenka upasaka_howard Hi, James (and everyone) - In a message dated 1/11/06 6:22:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > > Here is an interesting site about the vipassana techniques of S.N. > Goenka: > > http://www.vipassana-cult.co.uk/ > > Just thought I would share. > > Metta, > James > =========================== Thank you, James! I do look forward to perusing the site. I will approach it with an open mind. One thing, though, that I'll mention right off: I accessed the site and immediately noticed the spinning wheel logo! Now, I doubt there are any ownership rights associated with that, but it does happen to be the case that it is consistently found on the Goenka sites, and it strikes me that it's use on the vipassana-cult site was not accidental. That's not so nice, I think. Possibly even an attempt at subterfuge. ;-) If you look, for example, at the site http://www.dhamma.org/ you'll see the spinning wheel and also the similarity of the type and layout. BTW, though I gained greatly from my one Goenka retreat it is no longer my practice, and I am not a "follower" ;-) Actually, at no point did I take him as "my teacher". I do take advice in the Dhamma from any good person whom I think has gone further than me, but my core teacher, or as the Tibetans say, my "root guru" ;-), has been and continues to be the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54585 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:33pm Subject: Re: Information about S.N. Goenka buddhatrue Hi Howard and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James (and everyone) - > > In a message dated 1/11/06 6:22:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard and All, > > > > Here is an interesting site about the vipassana techniques of S.N. > > Goenka: > > > > http://www.vipassana-cult.co.uk/ > > > > Just thought I would share. > > > > Metta, > > James > > > =========================== > Thank you, James! I do look forward to perusing the site. I will > approach it with an open mind. One thing, though, that I'll mention right off: I > accessed the site and immediately noticed the spinning wheel logo! Now, I doubt > there are any ownership rights associated with that, but it does happen to be > the case that it is consistently found on the Goenka sites, and it strikes me > that it's use on the vipassana-cult site was not accidental. That's not so > nice, I think. Possibly even an attempt at subterfuge. ;-) If you look, for > example, at the site http://www.dhamma.org/ you'll see the spinning wheel and also > the similarity of the type and layout. James: Yeah, that is a common practice: to imitate, on a superficial level, the thing you are attacking. That is a technique of satire, not subterfuge. For example, the site "The Smoking Gun" questions the authenticity of the facts presented in the book `A Million Little Pieces'. On their site they reproduce an almost identical replica of the book cover except the hand is crossing its fingers (as in telling a lie) rather than reaching out in help/desperation which is found on the original cover. You can see both pictures at this site: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0104061jamesfrey1.html > BTW, though I gained greatly from my one Goenka retreat it is no > longer my practice, and I am not a "follower" ;-) Actually, at no point did I take > him as "my teacher". I do take advice in the Dhamma from any good person whom > I think has gone further than me, but my core teacher, or as the Tibetans say, > my "root guru" ;-), has been and continues to be the Buddha. James: I know that you don't really follow the technique any longer. It's just that you and I have had continuing discussions about S.N. Goenka so I thought you would be most interested in reading the site. That's why I addressed the post mainly to you. This site only presents one side of the issue anyway- but it is one side that is so rarely presented. I also practiced the S.N. Goenka method for quite a few years and I gained some benefits from the method. I gained some insights into the transitory nature of phenomenon and the development of siddis (psychic powers- if you can call that a benefit?). But I also experienced some negatives: like extreme terror at seeing the transitory nature of phenomenon (Howard, which is what you have also experienced), meditation visions which were so real as to lead to mild psychosis (i.e. my past visions of Mara), and a decreased interest in and ability to practice meditation. Now, I feel like I have to start all over again, after all these years of practice, at square one. Not only is it sometimes frustrating to start over, it is also sometimes difficult to unlearn the Goenka techniques I did learn over all those years of practice. Therefore, I have made it my (minor) personal goal to dissuade anyone I can from practicing the Goenka techniques or from attending a Goenka retreat. JUST SAY NO TO GOENKA!! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 54586 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:57pm Subject: Magnificent Mind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Mind is the Maker & Creator! Mind precedes & initiates all phenomena, mind is their chief, mind is their maker... When one speaks or performs an action with a mind that is internally all pure, then happiness & pleasure follows, like a shadow that never departs... Dhammapada 1 Difficult to detect and very subtle, mind can seize & take up any object, so let any wise being guard the mind, for a guarded mind brings happiness... Dhammapada 36 Neither mother, nor father, nor any other family member can do greater good both for oneself and for others as well, than the well controlled & directed mind... Dhammapada 43 What is Mind ? Mind is an ever repeating sequence of: Contact => Feeling => Perception => Intention => Attention => New Contact etc. Stilling this cycle produces Peace & Bliss! This serene tranquillity is called Nibbana! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 54587 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:21pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 356 - Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch21 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 continued] The Visuddhimagga states about the åsavas that they “exude from unguarded sense-doors”. The sense-doors are “guarded” through the development of satipaììhåna. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Threes, Chapter II, §16, The Sure Course) that a monk who possesses three qualities is “proficient in the practice leading to the Sure Course” and “has strong grounds for the destruction of the åsavas”. These three qualities are moderation in eating, the guarding of the six doors and vigilance. We read concerning the guarding of the six doors: * "And how does he keep watch over the door of his sense faculties? Herein, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, does not grasp at the general features or at the details thereof. Since coveting and dejection, evil, unprofitable states might overwhelm one who dwells with the faculty of the eye uncontrolled, he applies himself to such control, sets a guard over the faculty of the eye, attains control thereof...." * The same is said about the other doorways. The six doorways should be guarded. How does one, when seeing an object with the eye, not “grasp at the general features or at the details thereof”? In being mindful of the reality which appears. This is the way to see realities as they are, to see them as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. However, even the sotåpanna who has eradicated the “canker of wrong view”, diììhåsava, still clings to sensuous objects. Even someone who has realized the arising and falling away of visible object which appears, of sound which appears, may still cling to them. Clinging has been accumulated from life to life, how then could one become detached at once? ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 1 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 54588 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Information about S.N. Goenka upasaka_howard Hi, James - My perspective on the Goenka organization and method differs from yours, James. My experience was quite different, except, of course, for the great fear evoked by the no-self experience I encountered there. But such terror is common. Ayya Khema has discussed that, in fact. I've gone over most of the material on the site you gave the url for, and I think it is WAY off target. One of the names associated with it, BTW, is that of a self-proclaimed "sotapanna" who considers himself rather much of a "master", and who treats jhana as if it were the whole of the Dhamma. I was very negatively impressed by this website, and my perspective is not at all a matter of having some special attachment to Goenka, his technique, or his organization. At present, in fact, it holds no interest for me at all, though also I have no particular aversion to it either. My one retreat was useful, and that's the whole of the matter. But this website strikes me as involving folks who could use some *serious* counseling, and my impression is that their probelms didn't originate with their attending a retreat. At the retreat I attended, while it was said that the full 10 days is needed for full benefit, there was NO warning of dire results if one left early. Moreover, the separation of sexes, which BTW was not complete, the silence that was maintained, the limitation of eating no meals after mid-day, and other such restrictions were rigorous but really quite standard. Oh, also, the accusation of use of drugging with "hypnotics" was particularly outrageous. In addition, I don't recall the use of the description "weak minded" at the retreat at all. One more thing - I had no problem understanding Goenka on the tape, despite what one possibly bigoted reviewer said about his "accent". Incidentally, the assistant teachers there, a husband and wife, were very kind, most straightforward, respectful, and helpful. And believe me, I was not a gullible "true believer". I tend to run like hell from "true believers," and even more so from those who seek them! I honestly think this is a terrible web site. However, as to what sort of person Goenka actually is, well, I don't know. If he is in fact homophobic, then he isn't much of one. But that's a different matter - very important, but different. I have a few more remarks in context below. In a message dated 1/11/06 11:34:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi Howard and All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Hi, James (and everyone) - > > > >In a message dated 1/11/06 6:22:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > >>Hi Howard and All, > >> > >>Here is an interesting site about the vipassana techniques of > S.N. > >>Goenka: > >> > >>http://www.vipassana-cult.co.uk/ > >> > >>Just thought I would share. > >> > >>Metta, > >>James > >> > >=========================== > > Thank you, James! I do look forward to perusing the site. I > will > >approach it with an open mind. One thing, though, that I'll > mention right off: I > >accessed the site and immediately noticed the spinning wheel logo! > Now, I doubt > >there are any ownership rights associated with that, but it does > happen to be > >the case that it is consistently found on the Goenka sites, and > it strikes me > >that it's use on the vipassana-cult site was not accidental. > That's not so > >nice, I think. Possibly even an attempt at subterfuge. ;-) If you > look, for > >example, at the site http://www.dhamma.org/ you'll see the > spinning wheel and also > >the similarity of the type and layout. > > James: Yeah, that is a common practice: to imitate, on a superficial > level, the thing you are attacking. That is a technique of satire, > not subterfuge. For example, the site "The Smoking Gun" questions > the authenticity of the facts presented in the book `A Million > Little Pieces'. On their site they reproduce an almost identical > replica of the book cover except the hand is crossing its fingers > (as in telling a lie) rather than reaching out in help/desperation > which is found on the original cover. You can see both pictures at > this site: > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0104061jamesfrey1.html ----------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Fair point. ---------------------------------------- > > > > BTW, though I gained greatly from my one Goenka retreat it > is no > >longer my practice, and I am not a "follower" ;-) Actually, at no > point did I take > >him as "my teacher". I do take advice in the Dhamma from any good > person whom > >I think has gone further than me, but my core teacher, or as the > Tibetans say, > >my "root guru" ;-), has been and continues to be the Buddha. > > James: I know that you don't really follow the technique any > longer. It's just that you and I have had continuing discussions > about S.N. Goenka so I thought you would be most interested in > reading the site. That's why I addressed the post mainly to you. > This site only presents one side of the issue anyway- but it is one > side that is so rarely presented. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this site is wildly extreme. Of course, it is possible that my experience was anomalous as well. Maybe it was the one good experience! ;-) Actually, I suspect the typical experience lies somewhere between the two. --------------------------------------------- > > I also practiced the S.N. Goenka method for quite a few years and I > gained some benefits from the method. I gained some insights into > the transitory nature of phenomenon and the development of siddis > (psychic powers- if you can call that a benefit?). But I also > experienced some negatives: like extreme terror at seeing the > transitory nature of phenomenon > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. But is that Goenka's fault? ---------------------------------------- (Howard, which is what you have also > > experienced), meditation visions which were so real as to lead to > mild psychosis (i.e. my past visions of Mara), and a decreased > interest in and ability to practice meditation. -------------------------------------- Howard: But you are a sensitive, James. Any powerful meditation technique might well "open you up" to experiences that would not happen to most folks. --------------------------------------- > > Now, I feel like I have to start all over again, after all these > years of practice, at square one. Not only is it sometimes > frustrating to start over, it is also sometimes difficult to unlearn > the Goenka techniques I did learn over all those years of practice. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm really sorry that it worked out that way for you. I was luckier with the Goenka practice. It benefited me, and I have no need to unlearn it. I typically just don't use it. But I am now much more sensitive to bodily sensations as a result of having practiced it. --------------------------------------- > Therefore, I have made it my (minor) personal goal to dissuade > anyone I can from practicing the Goenka techniques or from attending > a Goenka retreat. JUST SAY NO TO GOENKA!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it was clearly not useful for you. And it may be unsuitable for many folks. Different strokes, as they say. ------------------------------------------ > > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, > James > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 54589 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii sarahprocter... Hi Dan (Nina, Scott* and all), Contd. 9. I also thought you wrote an excellent post ‘on “discrete quanta” and conventional understandings (#54033) with your good quotes from the Brahmajala. I was interested to read your quote from the Tiika with the example of the fire-disc (“i.e the unbroken disc of flame formed by swinging a firebrand in rapid circular motion) on how ‘each succeeding act of consciousness arises concealing, as it were, the absence of its predecessor’. This is the same simile K.Sujin uses to show how it’s the nimitta of dhammas that we see and hear and touch at this moment....it’s like we’re looking at the dhammas themselves from behind a curtain. Nibbana doesn’t have such a sign or nimitta so that can’t even be seen behind a curtain or as a firebrand before it’s directly experienced. (Nina, you’ll hear K.Sujin talking more about nimitta on the Erik series coming – she mentions here how nimitta has different meanings – nimitta of realities and nimitta of concepts such as when we’re dreaming. Also, she emphasizes again how if it’s not a paramattha dhamma being experienced now, it must be a concept.) Anyway, all great stuff, Dan. 10. Just at the end of this good post, I’d like to nit-pick a little however.... You write that: D: “citta doesn’t experience sensation; Citta IS the experience, and sensation is one of the characteristics of that experience. Experience (citta) at one moment differs from that at another moment, and sensation is an aspect of each citta. So is sanya......” ..... S: Citta can experience any object – reality or concept. So it experiences feelings, it experiences tangible objects and anything else we like to call sensations. Citta is the experiencing of an object, it’s function is to experience that object. When there’s awareness of a citta, say ‘seeing’, it is awareness of the characteristic of that nama which experiences visible object. Feeling (vedana), as you know well, accompanies all cittas. It’s not a characteristic of citta. Citta only takes the lead in experiencing its object. It doesn’t feel or perceive at all. Of course, in context, citta can refer to citta and cetasikas and maybe this is what you are referring to, in which case I misunderstood you. However, you go on to say that: D: “The object of sanya is the same as the object of the citta; but the cognizing itself is “citta”, while “sanya” is the name given to a category of ingredient that flavours the cognition.” .... S: Usually the texts refer to vedana as having the function of experiencing the taste or flavour of the object experienced by the citta and accompanying cetasikas. Sanna marks and remembers the object being experienced. However, of course it’s true to say that all the cetasikas and citta concerned condition and affect or ‘flavour’ each other and perhaps this is what you mean. ..... 11. In a post on ‘Reading commentaries and Abhidhamma’ (#54044), you refer to how “Seeing sharp, clear beginnings and endings of cittas is an essential first step of development of insight” and how “Insight into conditionality only comes with clear discernment of rise and fall and rise-and-fall.” Could you give me one or some of the references to this which you have in mind? What happened to the clear understanding and knowledge of the distinction between namas and rupas as a first stage and insight into conditionality as a second stage? I liked the rest of your post, especially the following: D: “There are many ways to read Abhidhamma and commentaries. One is to reflect on how they relate to experience. Another is to think about how they must be wrong because they are at odds with what I think is right. It may well be that the Abhidhamma does not seem to shed light on any personal experience or knowledge, that it only seems like a list of terms thrown together in a monkish way, that it is just an elaborate theory hammered out from reason by some clever bhikkhus long after the Buddha passed away. What do we do when the commentaries seem wrong? We can either conclude: "By my understanding, the theories they are discussing are wrong"; or we can conclude, "The commentaries and discussion are describing reality in a way I haven't experienced. My understanding must not be very well developed yet." I find it very beneficial to reflect in latter way rather than conceptualizing and theorizing about how things that I have not experienced must be wrong. Thinking about the commentaries and Abhidhamma as description rather than theory can be a real eye opener.” ..... S: Just to add to this, there’s a good part of the Erik audio which you’ll come to in which K.Sujin is emphasizing that it is by understanding realities (dhammas) now that we will learn to appreciate and understand the details more and more. This doesn’t mean that we read the details about the ayatanas or dhatus or khandhas and then try to find them. There has to be a lot of ‘hearing’, considering and understanding. She goes on to talk about avijja (ignorance) and how it’s not pages of books on D.O., but right now at this moment. This moment, this life now will become the past life of the next life. Now there’s seeing and hearing with ignorance, but there can be ‘studying’ or the development of awareness of their characteristics as they appear. We think we have some appreciation of dukkha and the arising and passing away of dhammas, but it’s just thinking about them as we consider. All the Tipitaka is about the understanding of present namas and rupas and there are of course degrees of sati and panna when such understanding occurs, whether at the level of pariyatti or patipatti. .... 12. Finally, because this is getting v.long, I also particularly liked your comment (#54118) about language: D: “Language is important, but ultimately all language misses the mark. Development of understanding is much more than just getting the language right. A certain figment of language might seriously mislead one person while giving another person invaluable, right guidance along the path.” .... Thanks again for the good Xmas and New Year ‘bonanza’ of posts. Metta, Sarah p.s Best regards to Lisa. Any updated family pic for the DSG album? *Scott and other ‘newbies’, do you have a pic for the member album? ======================= 54590 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Information about S.N. Goenka sarahprocter... Hi Howard & James, Unlike Howard, I just had a very quick look at the site. Like Howard, I also find this kind of thing distasteful. To me, it’s a bit like going to a party, having a bad time and then bad-mouthing the host or hostess for the poor show and experience. Don’t we forget all the time that our bad experiences, wrong actions and views are the result of many, many factors, especially kamma and our good and bad inclinations ‘accumulated’ over many, many lifetimes? Don’t we study the Buddha’s teachings to see that the real problems in life are ‘inside’, not ‘outside’ in society? As you both know well, I’ve never been a fan of the Goenka (or U Ba Khin) technique being heralded as ‘vipassana’ or the ‘Buddha’s teaching’. However, I’ve had many Goenka follower friends over the years –- some I’ve been able to discuss Dhamma with and some not at all. Either way, I don’t think that showing a lack of respect for him as a person or accusing his students of being ‘cult members’ would be helpful. Metta, Sarah p.s I spent a little time with Goenka in Bodh Gaya over 30 years ago and later went to one of his courses with a small group of people then. I had no doubt that he was kindly and well-intentioned and I didn’t find anything ‘hypnotic’ about him nor anything unpleasant about the experience – quite the contrary. (But then it seemed like free luxury for me at the time in India!) Of course, our own expectations, desires, aversions, views and practices are always dangerous and will always find an ‘outlet’. ======= 54591 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Information about S.N. Goenka buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James - > > My perspective on the Goenka organization and method differs from > yours, James. My experience was quite different, except, of course, for the great > fear evoked by the no-self experience I encountered there. But such terror is > common. Ayya Khema has discussed that, in fact. James: But did the Buddha ever discuss that? I don't think that meditation practice is supposed to evoke terror- about anything. If you truly practice that path as taught by the Buddha there won't be any terror involved. > I've gone over most of the material on the site you gave the url for, > and I think it is WAY off target. James: It is just one perspective. You have already stated that it isn't your perspective so of course you are going to see the information as "off target". The important thing is to try and have an unbiased perspective: which I don't know if that is possible for either of us. One of the names associated with it, BTW, is > that of a self-proclaimed "sotapanna" who considers himself rather much of a > "master", and who treats jhana as if it were the whole of the Dhamma. James: I really don't understand why so many Buddhists have this "thing" against Jeffrey S. Brooks. He seems to push a button in so many that they respond with bitter attacks and character assassination. (Not saying that you are doing that). He's not claiming to be an arahant, just a sotapanna. And I don't know why everyone gets so shocked that he does that- like he is breaking some kind of Buddhist rule. The canon has some examples of lay people proclaiming themselves to be sotapanna and the Buddha approving of their proclamations. And just because Jeffrey may over-emphasize the importance of jhana on occasion doesn't mean he can't be a sotapanna. A sotapanna isn't perfect, he/she has a lot more work to do. They have at least seven more lifetimes in which to learn (and, I have read, that that means seven more realms of existence. For example, a sotapanna could be reborn as a human five or six times in a row but it would only count as one lifetime, because it was still as a human). Anyway, I digress. I was > very negatively impressed by this website, and my perspective is not at all a > matter of having some special attachment to Goenka, his technique, or his > organization. At present, in fact, it holds no interest for me at all, though also I > have no particular aversion to it either. My one retreat was useful, and > that's the whole of the matter. But this website strikes me as involving folks who > could use some *serious* counseling, and my impression is that their probelms > didn't originate with their attending a retreat. James: Well, this is a broad generalization and armchair psychology. You can barely make such a diagnosis based on the short quotes put on this web site! Now, this comment seriously throws your perspective into doubt, in my eyes. It appears to be very biased and unreasonable. > At the retreat I attended, while it was said that the full 10 days is > needed for full benefit, there was NO warning of dire results if one left > early. Moreover, the separation of sexes, which BTW was not complete, the silence > that was maintained, the limitation of eating no meals after mid- day, and > other such restrictions were rigorous but really quite standard. Oh, also, the > accusation of use of drugging with "hypnotics" was particularly outrageous. In > addition, I don't recall the use of the description "weak minded" at the retreat > at all. One more thing - I had no problem understanding Goenka on the tape, > despite what one possibly bigoted reviewer said about his "accent". > Incidentally, the assistant teachers there, a husband and wife, were very kind, most > straightforward, respectful, and helpful. And believe me, I was not a gullible > "true believer". I tend to run like hell from "true believers," and even more so > from those who seek them! James: So, your experience was different. Maybe you were lucky. I also wonder what year you took this retreat? Things might have degraded since you attended. And there are retreat centers all over the US and the world (Isn't it funny, and suspicious, how something that is supposed to be free has gotten so rich??) > I honestly think this is a terrible web site. However, as to what sort > of person Goenka actually is, well, I don't know. If he is in fact > homophobic, then he isn't much of one. But that's a different matter - very important, > but different. James: I have said that he is homophobic because he won't let gays or lesbians participate in his retreats. To me, that is homophobic. Now, he gives this reason that it is because one is supposed to focus on the practice and that sexual desire gets in the way of that. He goes on to say that gay men being with other men will be too turned on and that gay women being with women will be too turned on. Excuse me? This is based on a very homophobic idea that all gay people are sex addicts and/or abusers. Does Goenka think that a gay person is going to want to hump everyone in sight? That they can't control their own desires? And according to studies, most people are not completely gay or completely straight anyway, but somewhere on a spectrum in-between (Kinsey). Get a bunch of men together without the possibility of sex with women and they are going to turn to each other for satisfaction- just look at prisons. So, it is very stupid and homophobic to not allow self- identified gays and lesbians to participate in his retreats. But, they are better off without them anyway, so I guess his homophobia is a blessing in disguise. Metta, James 54592 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. sarahprocter... Hi Joop & all, There are various different terms which are sometimes translated as ‘accumulations’. Here are some that come to mind,some of which you’ve been discussing already: 1. carita – character, behaviour, nature 2. ayuuhana – specifically refers wholesome and unwholesome kamma or kamma formations (sankhara) as basis for rebirth. Kamma conditions rebirth consciousness (patisandhi citta) only because all possible kamma has been ‘accumulated’. 3. asayaanusaya – refers to good and bad tendencies. Anusaya only refers to the 7 bad latent tendencies. 4. sankhaara khandha – refers to all mental formations except vedana and sanna, which are ‘formed’ or ‘accumulated’. It shows the different aspects and how these are all conditioned. 5. aacaya – another word for accumulations (??) 6. pakatuupanissaya paccaya – natural decisive support condition. This is the widest condition which mainly determines how and why attachment or aversion or wisdom or any other states or cittas can arise now 7. adhimutti – shows the difference betweent the quality of accumulations or dispositions. Some have good ones and others have less 8. parami – perfections refer to just the special good qualities which are accumulated with the development of satipatthana to become parami 9. vasana – good and bad habits or mannerisms. Only the Buddha can eradicate the bad aspects or mannerisms completely. We can see the vasana in different people’s gestures or walks or sitting postures. The present vasana ‘accumulate’ and will condition the vasana in future lives too. ***** I think the different aspects can help us to understand life and conditioned dhammas more and more. Our speech,actions and thoughts reflect our accumulations and latent tendencies which can ‘erupt’ at any time. I think you asked very good questions about latent tendencies, accumulated kamma and so on. I’ve always found the analogy of salt in water helpful. Kamma is like that. The past intentions and deeds are gone, but when you put salt in water, it’s not the same as before, even though you cannot touch it or take it away. Similarly, the past actions still have a force or power by kamma condition when there are other supporting conditions. It can be a condition for the next moment. I was also considering your questions the other day when I was sent a report of a managed investment fund. There was a diagram with the heading ‘cumulated trend’. I’m not sure how far we can take this analogy, but we can say that yesterday’s or last year’s value has completely ‘gone’. Yet, the past performance along with new operating conditions such as any trading today, market forces, political factors, natural disasters and so on, all affect the present value which is the only ‘existing’ value at all. No store, but many complex conditions, all with their own force or power which can come into effect at any time. Not sure if any of this helps, but I thank you for all your excellent questions and opportunity to reflect further. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone has any further terms for accumulations, pls add them to the list! ======== 54593 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 0:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Information about S.N. Goenka kelvin_lwin Hi Howard and James, I just got back from trip to Burma this week. Males in my family ordained for a week as it is traditional for Burmese. I did think of you, James, and wonder if you can share the merits. > > fear evoked by the no-self experience I encountered there. But > such terror is > > common. Ayya Khema has discussed that, in fact. > > James: But did the Buddha ever discuss that? I don't think that > meditation practice is supposed to evoke terror- about anything. If > you truly practice that path as taught by the Buddha there won't be > any terror involved. Kel: Depends on definition of terror of course as we can be propelled and fueled by this. Look at reminding oneself of death as a way to not forgetting to practice. Also look at 9 stages of corpse meditation. I know I would be scared of real or imaginery things in graveyards, especially ghosts. You can't really predict how people are going to respond to certain type of meditation if it's not compatible with them. Isn't terror or disgust at transitory nature of mind/matter what we're after so we can let it go? Our mind is ruled by craving/aversion/ignorance for the innumerable lives. Wouldn't it be expected to react with strong aversion, terror, toward things that would try to shake it from its comfort zone. > James: I really don't understand why so many Buddhists have > this "thing" against Jeffrey S. Brooks. He seems to push a button > in so many that they respond with bitter attacks and character > assassination. (Not saying that you are doing that). He's not > claiming to be an arahant, just a sotapanna. Kel: During the ceremony for ordination they stated 4 things that would make one not a monk automatically. The last one is boasting about fake or real attainments of jhana or magga. I think it's just a general rule of thumb that for people who are complete and secure, they don't feel the need to boast. > James: And there are retreat centers all over > the US and the world (Isn't it funny, and suspicious, how something > that is supposed to be free has gotten so rich??) Kel: As far as I know most centers are autonomous. Usually a group of old students would attempt to start at center at some place. After they have sufficient funds, they do need final site approval from Goenkaji. Each center have their own trust and tax ID (for US). At least this is what I've seen in Burma and America. Center in Burma requires the main donor to supplement as there are some free loaders :o The one in California has strong supporters so every course generates surplus. > James: I have said that he is homophobic because he won't let gays > or lesbians participate in his retreats. To me, that is > homophobic. Now, he gives this reason that it is because one is > supposed to focus on the practice and that sexual desire gets in Kel: There's support for that as kamma raga isn't abandoned until anagami stage. He's quite fearful of it and put in some strict rules for better or worse. Nobody is allowed to touch each other on center grounds, same sex or otherwise, even if there's no courses being held. I think the philosophy is better safe than sorry. Actually there are more weird rules that are from Indian culture and nothing to do with Buddhism (as far as I can tell). Some you'll find are added on over the years as the organization grows and some are even relaxed as people from different backgrounds have gained influence. Even arahats aren't free of habit so I would expect organization full of ordinary people to have all sort of issues. - kel 54594 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop & all, > > There are various different terms which are sometimes translated as > `accumulations'. Here are some that come to mind,some of which you've been > discussing already: > ... Hallo Sarah Thanks for your list of terms, sometimes translated as "accumulations". There is one problem with all this terms: That there exist a word does not automatically mean that the "entity" where it is the name for, really exists. An easy example: the name "God" does not automatically imply that God exists. Many christian scholastics have tried to prove that God exists, but - in my eyes - in vain. Many of the terms you use, do not occur in the lists of terms that are ultimate reality; so how to prove that they are really existing? Perhaps some of them are concepts? Perhaps some are only used metaphorical, in a simile, by the Buddha, to explain something that can only be explained in a indirect way. Metta Joop 54595 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:04am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218, 219 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 218 Intro: in this section the second reason for there being five khandhas is explained. All the different dhammas included in them can be the basis of wrong view. ---------- Text Vis.: (b) And this is the extreme limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self, that is to say, the five beginning with materiality. For this is said: 'Bhikkhus, when matter exists, it is through clinging to matter, through insisting upon (interpreting) matter, that such a view as this arises: "This is mine, this is I, this is my self". When feeling exists ... When formations exist ... When consciousness exists, it is through clinging to consciousness, through insisting upon (interpreting) consciousness, that such a view as this arises: "This is mine, this is I, this is my self" ' (S.iii,181-82). So they are stated as five because this is the widest limit as a basis for the assumption of the self and what pertains to self. ****** N: The views of ³this is mine, this is I, this is my self" represent the three proliferations (papañcas) : clinging without wrong view, conceit, and clinging with wrong view. These proliferations arise with regard to each of the five khandhas. The five khandhas are the extreme limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self, as we have seen. The five khandhas have been classified as past, future or present, as internal or external, as gross or subtle, as inferior or superior, and as far or near. There are numerous conditions for each of the ruupas and naamas classified as khandha to be of great variety. We cling and we have wrong view with regard to ruupas, including the sense-objects and the senses; we cling to the body from head to toe and we take it for self. We take cittas, feelings and the other cetasikas for self. When seeing arises we take it for Œmy seeing¹. When akusala cetasika such as attachment or sobhana cetasika such as generosity arises, we take these cetasikas for self. There are numerous objects of clinging and of wrong view, but all of them have been classified as five khandhas. By the development of insight the dhammas that are classified as the five khandhas will be seen as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. ****** Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 219. Text Vis.: (c) And also, since those other [sorts of aggregates] stated as the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue [82] are comprised within the formations aggregate, they are included here too. Therefore they are stated as five because they include the other sorts. This is how the exposition should be known as to neither less nor more. ----------------------- Note, from the Tiika: 82. The aggregates of virtue, concentration, understanding, liberation, and knowledge and vision of liberation (S.i,99), etc. --------- N: The expression, Œthe five aggregates of things¹, is the translation of pañca dhammakkhandhaa, the five dhamma khandhas. In the sutta referred to khandha is used in another sense, referring to five divisions which are the qualities of an arahat. Sometimes three khandhas of daana, siila and bhaavana are mentioned (D. III, 218) and these are the three bases of merit. Since these are wholesome qualities they are classified under sa²nkhaarakkhandha. Summarizing the three reasons why there are five khandhas: 1: all dhammas that resemble each other are classified as five different khandhas. 2: the five khandhas are the widest limit as the basis for the assumption of self and what pertains to self. 3: other sorts of aggregates (wholesome qualities) are included in the five khandhas. ****** Nina. 54596 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Class Notes - Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Rob M, op 11-01-2006 17:24 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > The Sthaviravada and Mahasanghika versions do > not mention its recitation, and since the agreement of these two > schools should establish the oldest available textual tradition it > appears as there were originally only two pitakas. ... Well, I see the Suttas > and Vinaya as purely canonical whereas I see the Theravada Abhidhamma > as quasi-cannonical. ... Nevertheless, I am convinced that the Theravada > Abhidhamma is critical to understanding the Suttas and meditative > experiences. ---------- N: I still think that instead of following (? perhaps you do not follow) modern scholars, it is best to read the Abhidhamma books themselves and their early commentaries, such as the Expositor, the Dispeller of Delusion, etc. I am not so sure the modern scholars that were mentioned studied and contemplated earnestly the texts themselves. Horner was mentioned in your quotes. Indeed, she is very careful with Pali and states that 'higher Dhamma' as we read in the suttas may not always refer to the Abhidhamma as we know it now. It depends on the context and I am inclined to be careful also. The same Ms. Horner wrote a very good intro to the "Clarifier of Sweet Meaning" (Co to the Chronicle of the Buddhas) about the commentaries. See also the Intro to the 'Minor Readings and Illustrator' by Ven. Nanamoli. Scholars who think that the Abhidhamma is of a later time also doubt about the reliability of the commentarial tradition. Another point. When reading the Abhidhamma, we should always have in mind that Abhidhamma and satipatthana go together. Be aware and check the different cittas that are described. Is it true that there are cittas rooted in lobha and are these different from cittas rooted in dosa? In the course of our study we shall also notice that what is taught in the suttas, though different in form, is not essentially different from the Abhidhamma. A question: you teach Abhidhamma on the request of your teacher, the head monk of your temple. You sure must also have personal reasons to do this wholeheartedly. What are your motives? As Sarah quoted from the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha: We do not speak about nibbaana now. But what does it mean, ultimate? citta, cetasika and rupa have each unalterable characteristics. Thus, lobha clings, no matter what shade it is, no matter what object it takes. It cannot be dosa, nobody can change it into something else. We can change the names of ultimate dhammas, but not their characteristics. Lobha appears time and again and then we can learn what its characteristic is. Ultimate dhammas are the objects of awareness and right understanding. Abhidhamma and vipassana go together. If this is not the case, we shall not really understand what the Abhidhamma is and what the purpose of our study of the Abhidhamma is. Nina. 54597 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: accumulations. nilovg Hi Howard, op 11-01-2006 21:20 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >> N: "latent tendencies" are ultimate realities; cetasikas. >> ======================= > Well, perhaps we're not as close on this issue as I speculated! ;-)) ------- N: Sensedesire is lobha cetasika. It arises with the akusala citta and then falls away with the citta, but it is accumulated and can condition the arising again of sense desire. It operates as a condition, it is real, it is not a concept. If you do not like the term cetasika, we can use another term, but it is reality! Nina. 54598 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:50pm Subject: An Act of Will leoaive Hi I found some additional instructions on how rightly to practice meditation. I am sharing it with you. AN XI.2 Cetana Sutta An Act of Will Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu "For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue. "For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse. "For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person. "For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body. "For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure. "For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated. "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are. "For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment. "For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate. "For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release. "In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. "In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore." 54599 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:18am Subject: Re: Perceptions & samadhi nimitta. A Lucky Guy. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo : > > You are a lucky man. > > > Htoo: > > Your question was 'how do I see paramattha dhamma'? > > > > Is that difficult? > > > > I have already said that paramattha dhamma is 'attha dhamma'. > Attha > > means 'essence' or 'core meaning' 'nucleus meaning'. > > > > I see 'sound' as 'sound'. > > I see 'smell' as 'smell'. > > > > So the answer is 'I see paramattha dhamma as they are'. > > > > How? = ans: as they are > > > > Tep: So you see the paramattha dhammas the way they really are. > Congratulations ! > > > Yours truly, > > > Tep ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, There are milestones, landmarks along the Journey. I saw some landmarks. Yes. I have seen them. Even though I cannot still see all the detail and their full essence and characters I do see them as they are. They arise, they pass away. When they are there they bear their characters. Seeing is more important than language. With Metta, Htoo Naing