55800 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some questions on meditation practice kenhowardau Hi Howard and Pablo, Howard wrote to Pablo: ---------------- > In my opinion, making such affirmations does not constitute a practice of "understanding presently arising dhamma(s)". Dhamma practice consists of a pariyatti-based, i.e. study- based/knowledge-based, execution of the cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na (morality, concentration/calm, and wisdom/understanding). Each of these three aspects of Buddhist practice impacts and supports the other two, > ----------------- I agree: right understanding comes first. Right understanding of the Dhamma comes before right understanding of conditioned existence, comes before right understanding of Nibbana. ----------------------- H: > but most basically dependable morality creates a foundation of ease that serves as support for the concentrative and calming functions of meditation, and that strengthened focus and calm serves as foundation for a growing clarity and mindfulness that leads to clear understanding of what actually occurs on any occasion. A mind that has been trained to be calm, clear, focused, and attentive is a cultivated field that is well prepared for the flowering of wisdom. ------------------------ As you said in the previous passage, Dhamma practice is study based. Therefore, when we talk about a mind I believe we should be aware of how mind is defined in the texts - i.e., as a single momentary consciousness (citta) accompanied by a number of momentary mental factors (cetasikas). So, when you talk about "a cultivated field that is well prepared for the flowering of wisdom," I have to wonder which, if any, of the 89 cittas you are referring to. Are you referring to certain cittas that are accompanied by panna, or to cittas without panna, or are you referring something altogether different? I also have to wonder where your train of thought is leading. In your opinion, can 'citta without panna' ever be described as Dhamma practice? (Sorry if that is a rhetorical question: from previous conversations, I am pretty sure your answer will be, "Yes, it can be a part of Dhamma practice," but I have to ask anyway. And Pablo might be interested to know the differences in our perspectives.) ----------------- H: > Again, each of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na supports the others. A part of sila bhavana (cultivation of morality) that is also a cultivation of attentiveness, focus, and clarity is called "guarding the senses". ----------------- Again, how are we to understand "guarding the senses?" Is it 'citta with panna' 'citta without panna' or is it something else? ----------------------------- H: > This is an ongoing mindfulness practice ----------------------------- In what way is citta ongoing? Or are you referring to a different, conventional, way of seeing the world? Can a conventional way be also the Middle Way? I would think not: I don't believe we can see conditionality in conventional reality. ----------------------------------------------- H: > that is a basic aspect of right effort. It consists of attending to one's possible and actual mental reactions to contacts through the six sense doors, as vigilant sentries would stand guard at six gateways to a city, avoiding unwholesome reactions not yet arisen, cutting short unwholesome reactions already arisen, inviting in wholesome reactions not yet arisen, and maintaining and furthering wholesome reactions already arisen. As with all practice, regularity improves the practice, and the very fruits of that practice make the practice more and more effective. ----------------------------------------------- We agree that vigilant sentries are mentioned by way of a simile, but I think we disagree on what they are a simile for. You seem to be saying they are a simile for a meditator, but I would strongly disagree. The simile is for citta with sati and panna. In the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there are only dhammas (no sentries, no meditators). I can't say offhand which dhammas (citta, sense-base, sense object, sati etc.) relate to which concepts (city, city-gates, travellers, sentries), but I can say confidently that "guarding the senses" involves no living beings and no conventional meditation activities. ----------------------------- H: > Combining this with such special meditative practices as mindfulness of the body and other foundations of mindfulness as outlined in the Kayagatasati Sutta, which is available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-119-tb0.html, in the Satipatthana Sutta at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-010-tb0.html, and in the Anapanasati Sutta which is available at the address http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-118-tb0.html, provides a complete Dhamma practice. ------------------------------ It is the same in all the suttas: similes (e.g., the story of the butcher and the cow) ultimately describe conditioned dhammas and their functions; they do not describe people and formal meditation. Ken H 55801 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 691 ) lbidd2 Htoo: "Kilesa or defile is the root cause. Kamma is action." Hi Htoo, This makes sense. Thanks for your reply. Larry 55802 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 699 ) htootintnaing Htoo Naing (htoo.naing-at-gmail.com) wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, In Dependent Origination the round of defilement have been discussed in the previous post. Still there are other two rounds. They are the round of kamma and the round of vipaaka or result. Avijjaa paccayaa sankhaara. Ignorance cause formation to arise. Sankhara or formation is in the round of kamma. Because sankhaara forms kamma or lay down kamma by doing actions. Another dhamma that is in the round of kamma is bhava or becoming. It is called existence by some people. It is kamma-bhava and it is related to clinging. Bhava or kamma-bhava is in the round of kamma. The third round is the round of vipaaka. They are 1. vinnaana (consciousness) 2. naamaruupa (mentality-materiality) 3. salayatana (6-sense-base) 4. phassa (contact) 5. vedanaa(feeling) 6. jaati (birth) 7. jaraa/marana (ageing/death) 3 dhamma are the round of defilement. 2 dhamma are the round of kamma. 7 dhamma are the round of vipaaka. There are 12 dhamma that are linearly linked one another in a continuous fashion. This post is the end of discussion on Dependent Origination. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htoo.naing-at-gmail.com / htootintnaing-at-yahoo.com PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55803 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:40pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) htootintnaing Htoo Naing (htoo.naing-at-gmail.com) wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, There are dhamma. Dhamma do not stand alone. One dhamma has to depend on yet another dhamma. This dependence may be in one way or another. This is conditional relation between different dhamma. There are two forms to show the relations between different dhamma. One form is paticca-samuppaada or Dependent Origination. Another form is much much more complicated dhamma called patthaana dhamma. Before we go into patthaana dhamma we should have dealt with paramattha dhamma. Otherwise patthaana dhamma will not be understood. Paramattha dhamma are explained in the way to be easily understood. After explanation on paramattha dhamma the discussion on hetu paccaya or root condition will starts. This is followed by aarammana paccaya or object condition. And this ends with avigata paccaya or non- disappearance condition at Dhamma Thread (807). Dhamma Thread (701) = www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html Dhamma Thread (807) = www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana107.html Cover of the ebook Patthaana Dhamma is 'www..../patthana.html' May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htoo.naing-at-gmail.com / htootintnaing-at-yahoo.com PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55804 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concept and sabhava lbidd2 Hi Ken, A couple of remarks: Ken O: "Whether it is mirage or magic trick, the meaning is the same, they are all illusions. It is just synonyms. If you like it, then it is both mirage as well as magic trick and also a dream and a foam. There is no difference." Larry: Oh no! No, no, no. This can't be so. Each simile is different because the characteristic of each khandha is different. Maybe we should meditate on this and see if some better words arise. K: "Even though firm sanna can be a proximate cause of sati, the functions are totally different. The function of sati is unforgetfullness whereas for sanna it is marking. Sati is unforgetfullness of what is kusala and keep us away from aksuala. Sati dont notice the colour. Colour is a visible object so it is the areana of eye sense process, but the rememberence of "red" in red colour is the function of sanna, likewise for the other type of colours. Only panna can know dhamma is empy of self and not empty of sabhava. Because if dhammas are all empty even without sabhava, it will nihilistics point of view. Furthermore the meaning of sabhava is not to me own nature, this is a very bad defintion. It should be define as unique characteristics of a dhamma, just like temperature can be hot or cold :-) but temperature is not self." L: What I was talking about is signs of complex formations such as "Ken's friend". If Ken's friend often wears a big red hat, that big red hat can be a sign that signifies "this is Ken's friend". The big red hat has no sabhava because it is a complex formation, a "meaning concept" (atthapannatti). However, actually seeing that the big red hat is empty of sabhava is rare. I would call it an insight knowledge, but it doesn't seem to correspond to any of the usual insight knowledges. I think sati and sanna are both concerned with identity. Sanna identifies by remembering signs and sati identifies by remembering paramattha dhammas. Whenever sati arises sanna also arises. So there must be a dual identity somehow. Larry 55805 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:49pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 807 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Whatever beings are thinking, whatever beings are perceiving, whatever earthly-worldly people are writing, saying, speaking, talking, discussing there are only 4 dhamma in essence. Nothing is more than these 4 dhamma. These 4 dhammas are known as paramattha dhamma or 'ultimate realities' because when ultimately seen there is nothing but one of these 4 realities whatever is analysed. Paramattha is a Pali word. It is made up of 'parama' and 'attha'. Attha means 'meaning' 'essence' 'intrinsic existence'. Parama means 'farthest' 'superior' 'highest' 'most excellent' 'best'. So paramattha dhamma means 'most excellent intrinsic essence or 'ultimate realities'. Whatever happen whereever and whenever there happen these paramattha dhamma. But nibbana is not a sankhata dhamma or conditioned dhamma and it does not arise or does not fall away and it does not happen. So in this world, on this earth, in these 31 realms or 31 planes of existence what happening are all happening of ruupa dhamma and naama dhamma and nothing more than that. There are 4 paramattha dhamma. They are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana. Citta and cetasika are naama dhamma and ruupa are ruupa dhamma. Naama dhamma and ruupa dhamma are sankhata dhamma or conditioned dhamma. Nibbana is asankhata dhamma and nibbana is not a conditioned dhamma. Sabbe sankharaa aniccaa'ti all conditioned dhamma are impermanent. Sabbe sankhaara dukkhaa'ti; all conditioned dhamma are suffering and non-desirable. Citta and cetasikas or naama dhamma and ruupa dhamma are sankhaara dhamma. All dhamma that is citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana are anatta ; sabbe dhammaa anattaa'ti. Anatta is a Pali word and made up of 'ana' and 'atta'. Ana means 'no' 'not' 'nothing' and 'atta' means 'self'. Anatta means 'non-self' or no self. So any dhamma is not self. Any dhamma cannot be controlled by any outside power but dhamma happen on their own accord and they run their course and nobody can influence dhamma. When these dhamma or naama and ruupa are happening they do not happen alone. But they happen by interacting with other dhamma and they each depend on others and others also depend on condition. There are 2 teachings of The Buddha that reveal conditional relationship. They are paticcasamuppaada dhamma and patthaana dhamma. Paticcasamuppaada dhamma just show that 'this' dhamma causes arising of 'that' dhamma and 'that' dhamma cause 'arising of 'this' dhamma. But paticcasamuppaada do not show how the cause and effect are related. Unlike paticcasamuppaada dhamma, patthaana dhamma reveal all the conditional relationship among dhamma and patthana also show how they are related to each other. Patthana dhamma is cited as the last text in the 7 abhidhamma texts of The Buddha teaching and it is the most profound, the most difficult and the most essenceful dhamma ever exist. If dhamma can be seen these patthana dhamma are actually happening in our daily life. There are in summary 24 paccaya or 24 conditions that dhamma are related to each other or dhamma condition other dhamma with 24 conditions. All 24 paccaya dhamma have been explained in this series of 'Dhamma Thread' explaining patthaana dhamma. There are more details in the 24 texts of Patthana Dhamma. These 24 texts are not of one text for one paccaya. 24 texts are details about patthana dhamma. In summary there are 24 paccayas or 24 conditions even though there are many more sub-conditions a part from these 24 conditions. 24 paccaya or 24 conditions are_ 1. hetu paccayo or 'root condition' 2. aarammana paccayo or 'object condition' 3. adhipati paccayo or 'predominance condition' 4. anantara paccayo or 'proximity condition' 5. samanantara paccayo or 'contiguity condition' 6. sahajaata paccayo or 'conascence condition' 7. annamanna paccayo or 'mutuality condition' 8. nissaya paccayo or 'dependence condition' 9. upanissaya paccayo or 'decisive support condition' 10.purejaata paccayo or 'prenascence condition' 11.pacchaajaata paccayo or 'postnasence condition' 12.aasevana paccayo or 'repeatition condition' 13. kamma paccayo or 'kamma condition' 14. vipaka paccayo or 'vipaka condition' or 'cooked-result condition' 15. aahaara paccayo or 'nutriment condition' 16. indriya paccayo or 'faculty condition' 17. jhaana paccayo or 'jhaana condition' or 'absoprtion condition' 18. magga paccayo or 'path condition' 19. sampayutta paccayo or 'association condition' 20. vippayutta paccayo or 'dissociation condition' 21. atthi paccayo or 'presence condition' 22. natthi paccayo or 'absence condition' 23. vigata paccayo or 'disappearance condition' 24. avigata paccayo or 'non-disappearance condition' May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55806 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Are conditional relations paramattha dhammas? I notice that paramattha dhammas are defined by characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. Can conditional relations be defined in the same way? Larry 55807 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:11pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 808 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread (001) to Dhamma Thread (807) may seem like theory but they all are essential basic building blocks to construct our understanding of dhamma. The deeper we consider on these the more we understand on dhamma and the more we accept on 'anatta'. There are a lot of logists these days and there will still be endless so-and-so-logists like sociologists, seismologists, metrologists, criminologists, and so on. These logists are those who study or studied or have studied or who are expert in the logies like sociology and so on. Among these the best is 'Anattologist'. The founder was The Buddha. He was the first great man who challanged the whole ten thousand world systems with this very new logy which may be called as 'Anattology'. Anattologists are all ariyas. Here do not confuse with the students of Anattology. They are just pro-Anattologists. Anattology is not like other subject. Why? Other subjects can be learned through listening or reading but Anattology is not. Some subjects can be learned through extensive thinking or reflection like logic and philosophy but Anattology is not. The main difference is that Anattology is the one which can only be learned (completely) through mental cultivation or meditation. Practical aspects and other things about meditation will be discussing in later posts. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55808 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Are conditional relations paramattha dhammas? I notice that paramattha > dhammas are defined by characteristic, function, manifestation, and > proximate cause. Can conditional relations be defined in the same way? > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, What I wrote is that 'conditional relations' can be explained by paramattha dhamma. Paramattha dhamma is basic dhamma. They are building blocks. Dependent Origination can be explained by paramattha dhamma. Patthaana Dhamma can be explained by paramattha dhamma. Aasava Dhamma can be explained by paramattha dhamma. Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma can be explained by paramattha dhamma. And many more can be explained by paramattha dhamma. But it is not true to say 'conditional relation = paramattha dhamma'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55809 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Thanks for the clarification. Conditional relations can be explained by paramattha dhamma but conditional relations are not paramattha dhamma. I wonder, in the spoken language, how do you know whether someone says paramattha or paramatta? Larry 55810 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:14pm Subject: Re: e-card and update from Bangkok gazita2002 hello Scott, I put your questions to T.A Sujin and strangely enuff, but not surprising really, it was treated as my question :-) -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > It seems as if there is a good thing going on over there. I have a > short question for A. Sujin: How does one explain the experience of > sustained emotional states when citta and cetasika arise and fall away > again so rapidly? azita: u know, I wrote a post yesterdy to u and was about to post when my internet card expired - how frustrating is that! Cittas and cetasikas arise again and again. so waht we take for 'sustained emotional states' are just concepts. The reality is that when a citta falls away it is a condition for the next one to arise, and bec they arise and fall soooo rapidly 'we' take it for a lasting thing. Is this accumulation? azita: T.A.Sujin's question to me was 'what is accumulation'. I realised then that I was also not sure what it really meant. This is my understanding. It is kusala and akusala that is accumulated, and this can only happin during the javanna stage of a process of cittas. This is the 'active phase' where akusala and kusala cetasikas arise and accumulate. Does domanassa accumulate? azita; domanassa is unpleasant feeling, no? I suppose when it arises during the javana stage with dosa it must accumulate, and now I feel a tad uncertain, so I will pose this question again, Scott. Thanx for the opportunity for me to see how little I know :-) > > Tried to keep a complex question short . . . > > Thanks for the opportunity. Please let A. Sujin know that I am > greatly appreciating her book! > Sincerely, > Scott. azita: will also mention about the book - cheers Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. 55811 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some questions on meditation practice jonoabb Hi Pablo Pablo wrote: >>So I think the answer to your question is: have more understanding of > a >>presently arising dhamma (any dhamma). >> > >thank you, what you wrote is very interesting, but I' m still unclear about >the practice. > Join the club ;-)) >A part from the fact that , being the arising dhamma so many, sometime I >miss the difference beetween meditating and daydreaming, what do you mean >with "more understanding" ? I can't really understand how should I >experience a dhamma as anicca/anatta ... the only thing I can do is to >repeat in my mind that the arisen dhamma is subjected to dissolution and >death, but I don't think this can be enough. > You are right. Trying to train oneself to "think" in a certain way is not the development of wisdom/understanding. That would just be a kind of thinking, most likely motivated by wrong view. Undertaking a form of 'practice' in order to 'see' dhammas is similarly not the development of wisdom/understanding. This is because understanding is, like all other dhammas (except Nibbana), conditioned and arises only when the proper conditions for its arising are in place. The main such conditions, apart from having accumulated it in previous lifetimes, are hearing the dhamma (teachings) in this lifetime, understanding what has been heard, and reflecting appropriately on what has been heard and understood. The understanding of dhammas can develop only gradually and in stages. The first stage is the right theoretical knowledge, for example, theoretical understanding of what dhammas are, of what awareness is, and of what the characteristic of moments of consciousness with awareness is (so that those moments can be recognised if and when they arise). Now although this sounds simple, it is far from being so. It is a long-term project, but the sooner we begin (in this lifetime) the better. Of course, we can assume that we have a certain level of understanding (from previous lifetimes) already, that can be built upon, so we need not be unduly discouraged ;-)). I can see you are someone who considers things carefully. Please keep asking questions and sharing your comments. Jon PS Regarding your apology to Htoo in a previous post, I saw nothing wrong with your earlier post, and I don't think Htoo meant to suggest there was anything wrong. I think he was just trying to engage you in discussion ;-)) 55812 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 691 ) jonoabb Hi Larry and Htoo There is I think another explanation as to why kilesa and kamma are separate 'rounds'. Not all cittas with kilesa constitute completed kamma. Kilesa that is not completed kamma accumulates and will eventually be a condition for akusala kamma to be committed. Furthermore, even kusala kamma is a condition for continued existence in samsara (except for moments of mundane path consciousness which 'disperse' the bricks of the wall), and kusala kamma is of course unrelated to kilesa. Jon. htootintnaing wrote: >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > >>Hi Htoo, >> >>Thanks for your reply re. the three rounds: kamma, vipaka, and >>kilesa. I've never seen this kind of classification before. >>Could you explain further. Why isn't kilesa included in kamma? >> >>Also, I'm a little surprised that namarupa is vipaka. Isn't >>cetana and the root cetasikas (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, >>adosa, amoha) included in namarupa? >> >>Larry >> >> >Dear Larry, > >Lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha are naama. This is true. When >we talk on D.O and round the first threes are kilesa round and the >last three are kamma round. They are not vipaaka. > >Kilesa and kamma. > >Kilesa or defile is the root cause. Kamma is action. Example, avijja >can invlove in both kilesa round and kamma round. But round and >paramattha dhamma are not exactly fit. > >I mean 'avijja' can be kilesa round. Avijja can also be kamma round >when we talk about action and not the cause. But avijjaa or moha is >never vipaaka. > >With Metta, > >Htoo Naing > > 55813 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eCard from Thailand jonoabb Hi Phil Your question is not really a question but would be good material for a discussion ;-)). I did raise the quoted passage, but the subject was not particularly picked up on by those present. However, I think similar points came up at different stages over the various sessions. It always comes back to the development of understanding of a presently arising dhamma (including the dhamma of lobha!). Jon Phil wrote: > Again popping in with a question that might or might not lead to >helpful discussion - related to the previous question about >dispersion so if it's already been raised, not to worry... > > I found this: "Some people, when they hear about defilements, may >not like to have them, but do they really know their defilements? >Lobha is a defilement. Do people want to have lobha? They may not >like the idea of having lobha, but actually people like lobha each >and every moment. This shows that one does not understand the >defilement of lobha." > > My question - I do feel that I have come to sense how very much >lobha there is and understand intellectually that there is even >lobha when there is nothing but hardness, nothing but a sound. And >of course I know not to worry about all the low-level lobha. But >when there is all this lobha, how can there be an opening, how can >there be a hole in the roof of lobha? I know it happens due to >conditions so it is best not to think about it too hard, but if >Acharn Sujin would like to talk about it... > > Again, only if there is time... > > Phil > > 55814 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eCard from Thailand jonoabb Hi Phil Sorry for the tardy reply. I did ask this question, but did not get the kind of answer that lends itself to a succinct reply. Questions from absentee owners often seem to attract little interest, as they are somewhat hypothetical, in the sense that what is considered important is the person's understanding rather than giving the 'right' answer. So the best I can say is that it is pretty much as you explain it yourself below ;-)). Perhaps you will pick up more when you hear the recorded discussion. Jon Phil wrote: > Hi Jon > > > >>The talks in Bangkok during last week (Saturday to Wednesday) were >>interesting as usual. >> > > If I'm not mistaken, there are more talks coming up this coming week. > > If there is time - and only if there is time - I thought I'd ask >about something I came across in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, >something I hadn't come across before. "When sati is aware of the >characteristics of realities that appear as they really are, this is >the Path; it is dispersion (apacayagamin) because then one does not >build-up dhammas that lead to accumulations, just as when a man tears >down the bricks that the bricklayer has piled up." > > I hadn't come across this apacayagaamin (dispersion) before and >wondered if it was akin to the "hole in the roof of lobha" simile that >Acharn Sujin used in one memorable talk. Since she has never brought it >up in talks that I've heard, I assume that it is one of those details >that we had best not ponder with too much interest. But perhaps if >there is time during next week's talks you could read out the above >passage and we'll see if it is something Acharn Sujin thinks is worth >talking about. Again, only if there's time. > > Hi to everyone. > > > Phil > > 55815 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to concepts cherry_avium Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > No problem, Charles. I too was beginning to feel a sense of ' unending' > about our discussion ;-)) Thanks, I do have learn many things because I have to read many things too to be able to respond to your statements :D, also by reading your opinions which give different perspective to me. But I think having a discussion too long might make me drown in my own view :P. Need to refresh... :D > However, since a number of points you raise are important ones, I may > come back on them if I have time (life has become a lot busier since we > returned to Bangkok). But if I do, please do not feel you need to respond. Doesn't we always talk about the same thing, but with slightly different words maybe :D. 55816 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:50am Subject: Re: eCard from Thailand philofillet Hi Jon > > Hi Phil > > Sorry for the tardy reply. > > I did ask this question, but did not get the kind of answer that lends > itself to a succinct reply. Thanks for asking. I look forward to listening to all the talks. BTW, in case you or Sarah are planning to send out those "Eric" talks, or the India talks, I'll be away until March 3 so best not to send them until after then - if they are sitting in my unlocked mailbox they might be intercepted by Soka Gakkai spies or something.... :) Thanks as always for your hard work recording and editing the talks - and mailing them out! Phil 55817 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:56am Subject: Re: e-card and update from Bangkok cherry_avium Hi Sarah, Thanks for asking my question :D --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott < sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: > She then suggested that the next question is 'Understanding of What?'. Of Dukkha, I think. It is because we do not understand what is dukkha, so we bind ourselves with whatever is dukkha, and so we get suffering. I remember it is said (somewhere :D) Dukkha is to be understood, The cause of dukkha is to be eliminated, The ending of dukkha is to be realized, The Path is to be practiced. > I forget if you asked for a copy of her book 'Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas'? If not (and if you'd like a copy), pls send me or Sukin your > address - I think you'd appreciate it. I believe it was Daniel from Indonesia that was asking for the book. I prefer to read books online, at least there would be one more book available for anyone who feel better reading papers :] > > Glad to see your continued dialogue with Ken O - you ask lots of good > questions like he used and share his good humour:D. I am still learning how to express my humour in this forum, and I still haven't being able to figure it out :=)) 55818 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@... wrote: > Isn't form (ruupa) a paramattha dhamma? I believe it is a matter of where we put our point of view. If I show you the moon, and then I show you some dust in my hand, can we say that the moon is the dust (in sammuti sacca)? But in paramattha sacca, both are rupa, aren't they? Rupa in nama-rupa is a concept, because it does not have sabhava. While rupas in 28 rupas have their own sabhavas, isn't it? > Certainly beings take concepts for self. But don't we all also > take paramattha dhammas as me, mine or myself? My form, my feelings, > my perceptions, my formations, my consciousnesses? I would take it as different Mike :D Form in a concept, its reality is the 28 rupas Feeling is a concept, its reality is the vedana cetasika Consciousness is a concept, its reality is the 89 cittas Sankhara is a concept, its reality is the cetasikas Sanna is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka citta Sorry if I map it wrong :D An analogy would be, if I break water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen, and then I give it to you, can I say that I am giving water to you :-? In abhidhamma, we would break water into fluidity, hardness, temperature, movement, taste, and others in the 28 rupas. At the time we can see the elementary elements that make up the water, we do not think about water anymore. > Hope you'll pardon my butting in. Absolutely not, it is even better when more people are involved in the talk :] 55819 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Ken, I would only say that I think I can agree with what you mean. I think it is only a matter of where I put my point of view :-) We are giants in the eye of ants, aren't we :P --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > k: Paramattha dhammas except for Nibbana are khandhas. for eg, > feeling which is a paramattha dhamma is khandhas. The meaning of > khandhas is just meant heap or mass - thats all :-) 55820 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:30pm Subject: The Three Jewels ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Faith in the Three Jewels is the entrance to Nobility! Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher & guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened & enlightened verily is the Buddha !!! Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here & now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each & everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine & verify! Leading each & everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable & realizable by each intelligence... Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's disciples; the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these eight kinds of individuals, the four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, self-sacrifice, offerings, hospitality & reverential salutation with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable & forever unsurpassed field of merit, in & for this world, to worship, give to & gain from ... Therefore: Buddham saranam gacchami Dhammam saranam gacchami Sangham saranam gacchami I take refuge in the Buddha! I take refuge in the Dhamma! I take refuge in the Sangha! Thereby Honouring: The Torch-bearer of Mankind! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 55821 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:05am Subject: Re: e-card and update from Bangkok scottduncan2 > azita: u know, I wrote a post yesterdy to u and was about to post when > my internet card expired - how frustrating is that! > Cittas and cetasikas arise again and again. so waht we take > for 'sustained emotional states' are just concepts. The reality is that > when a citta falls away it is a condition for the next one to arise, and bec > they arise and fall soooo rapidly 'we' take it for a lasting thing. > > Is this accumulation? > > azita: T.A.Sujin's question to me was 'what is accumulation'. I realised > then that I was also not sure what it really meant. This is my > understanding. It is kusala and akusala that is accumulated, and this can > only happin during the javanna stage of a process of cittas. This is > the 'active phase' where akusala and kusala cetasikas arise and > accumulate. > > Does domanassa accumulate? > > azita; domanassa is unpleasant feeling, no? I suppose when it arises > during the javana stage with dosa it must accumulate, and now I feel a > tad uncertain, so I will pose this question again, Scott. Thanx for the > opportunity for me to see how little I know :-) Dear Azita, Thank you very much for your reply and for the posing of the question. So "sustained emotional states" is just concept, not paramattha dhamma, an illusion. What about the experience? A jhaana-state seems to persist but maybe this is a function of sati arising with each citta. This too must just seem to be so, but what causes the same sort of citta-constellation to arise time and time again? What conditions a citta to arise with the same object as the last? I don't know at all, not even enough to make my question clear! Sincerely, Scott. 55822 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks for the clarification. Conditional relations can be explained by > paramattha dhamma but conditional relations are not paramattha dhamma. > > I wonder, in the spoken language, how do you know whether someone says > paramattha or paramatta? > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, If he indicates paramattha dhamma then he is talking on it. But the whole event as we understand is not paramattha dhamma because there is no 'we' and no 'performer' or 'doer' in paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55823 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:24am Subject: Greetings from Nina jonoabb Hi All Nina asked me the other day (apologies for the delay) to pass on her warm wishes to everybody, and to say hello to any newcomers to the list. She mentioned the following as points she has noted during the discussions (I think she may elaborate on these herself later): -- the development of the path requires detachment from the beginning -- wanting to have more understanding (however expressed) is just self -- what is difficult cannot be made to be easy; a child cannot become a grown-up ahead of time Nina and Lodewijk will be leaving Thailand on Monday morning, so expect to see her back later in the week. Lodewijk also sends his regards Jon 55824 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some questions on meditation practice upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Pablo) - In a message dated 2/18/06 12:26:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Undertaking a form of 'practice' in order to 'see' dhammas is similarly > not the development of wisdom/understanding. > --------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, carrying out all the practices advised by the Buddha cultivates the mind. If we don't act now, then lifetimes from now we will still be unable to get anywhere. This very lifetime will, lifetimes from now, become one of the many "previous lifetimes" during which kusala conditions could have been created, i.e., seeds which could have yielded good fruit might have been sown. ---------------------------------------------- > This is because > understanding is, like all other dhammas (except Nibbana), conditioned > and arises only when the proper conditions for its arising are in > place. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That's correct. And that is why the Buddha taught us fo 45 years how to foster proper conditions. -------------------------------------------- The main such conditions, apart from having accumulated it in > > previous lifetimes, are hearing the dhamma (teachings) in this lifetime, > understanding what has been heard, and reflecting appropriately on what > has been heard and understood. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught his followers to do many, many things. Listening to, contemplating, and discussing his teachings were certainly fundamental. But they were *far* from all. And past "accumulations" are the consequences of past actions. Nothing comes from nothing, and reading the menu will not fill our stomach. We need to read the menu, for sure, else we'll choose the wrong foods, but if we stop with the reading, we'll soon properly despair of a good meal at the Dhamma Restaurant. --------------------------------------------- > > The understanding of dhammas can develop only gradually and in stages. > The first stage is the right theoretical knowledge, for example, > theoretical understanding of what dhammas are, of what awareness is, and > of what the characteristic of moments of consciousness with awareness is > (so that those moments can be recognised if and when they arise). --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, the first stage. But not first, last, and always. There is more. And if all else is held off on until the 1st stage becomes "perfect" or "complete", we shall never do all that needs to be done. --------------------------------------------- > > Now although this sounds simple, it is far from being so. It is a > long-term project, but the sooner we begin (in this lifetime) the > better. Of course, we can assume that we have a certain level of > understanding (from previous lifetimes) already, that can be built upon, > so we need not be unduly discouraged ;-)). --------------------------------------------- Howard: There will not be adequate understanding based on study alone. The Buddha *never* taught that there will. ---------------------------------------------- > > I can see you are someone who considers things carefully. Please keep > asking questions and sharing your comments. > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55825 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/18/06 8:25:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi All > > Nina asked me the other day (apologies for the delay) to pass on her > warm wishes to everybody, and to say hello to any newcomers to the list. > > She mentioned the following as points she has noted during the > discussions (I think she may elaborate on these herself later): > -- the development of the path requires detachment from the beginning > -- wanting to have more understanding (however expressed) is just self > -- what is difficult cannot be made to be easy; a child cannot become a > grown-up ahead of time > ===================== With regard to Nina's points: 1) It is good at all times for there to be detachment, but that is NOT where worldlings start, and if that were a requirement, then there could be no starting. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. 2) Without a desire for more understanding, there will be no actions taken to lead to understanding (pariyatti included), and desire will never be conquered. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. 3) The practice is not easy, nor are its ultimate fruits immediate, but without undertaking it as best we can at whatever stage we are at, even as infants, it will be impossible. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. With metta, Howatrd /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55826 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' This is a big topic. It is a Paa.li word and it is made up of 'kamma and .thaana'. This makes 'kamma-.t-.thaana' or kamma.t.thaana'. In the previous post I just called it as 'meditation'. But it is not enough and even it may lead to wrong understanding. What is kammatthana? Kammatthana is a place where the bhaavana-kusala-kamma arises or exists or dwells or lives or stays. What is bhavanaa? Bhaavanaa is 'mental cultivation of wholesome things' or it is mental cultivation of 'profitable things'. It is growing of something mainly in the mind. That bhavanaa is kusala citta and it is bhaavanaa-kusala cittas. These cittas are bhavanaa kusala kamma and they are bhaavanaa kusala actions. These bhavanaa kusala cittas take objects and the object they take is called 'kammatthaana'. There are different kammatthana. 40 objects or 40 objects of kammatthanana or 40 kammatthaanas help the mind well calm. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55827 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:25am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Kamma.t.thaana' > > This is a big topic. It is a Paa.li word and it is made up of 'kamma > and .thaana'. This makes 'kamma-.t-.thaana' or kamma.t.thaana'. In > the > previous post I just called it as 'meditation'. But it is not enough > and even it may lead to wrong understanding. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear All, If I am wrong please correct me. With respect, Htoo Naing 55828 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:29am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > 'Kamma.t.thaana' > > > > This is a big topic. It is a Paa.li word and it is made up of 'kamma > > and .thaana'. This makes 'kamma-.t-.thaana' or kamma.t.thaana'. In > > the > > previous post I just called it as 'meditation'. But it is not enough > > and even it may lead to wrong understanding. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear All, > > If I am wrong please correct me. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > Dear Htoo, Would you please elaborate on the "kamma" part of kamma.t.thaana? Given that kamma.t.thaana is the object of kamma-kusula-citta, what does this imply? Sincerely, Scott. 55829 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 691 ) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Larry and Htoo > > There is I think another explanation as to why kilesa and kamma are > separate 'rounds'. Not all cittas with kilesa constitute completed > kamma. Kilesa that is not completed kamma accumulates and will > eventually be a condition for akusala kamma to be committed. > > Furthermore, even kusala kamma is a condition for continued existence in > samsara (except for moments of mundane path consciousness which > 'disperse' the bricks of the wall), and kusala kamma is of course > unrelated to kilesa. > > Jon. Hi Jon, Good points. Thanks for your input. Larry 55830 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@ wrote: > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Thanks for the clarification. Conditional relations can be explained > by > > paramattha dhamma but conditional relations are not paramattha > dhamma. > > > > I wonder, in the spoken language, how do you know whether someone > says > > paramattha or paramatta? > > > > Larry > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Larry, > > If he indicates paramattha dhamma then he is talking on it. But the > whole event as we understand is not paramattha dhamma because there is > no 'we' and no 'performer' or 'doer' in paramattha dhamma. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > Hi Htoo, I would say a conditional relation is concept (pannatti) because it involves 2 dhammas and 2 dhammas aren't "ultimate" (parama). So any combination is concept. For example: 2 rupas, 2 cetasikas, object of consciousness, and consciousness rooted in greed (lobhamulacitta) are all concepts. We could even say experience is concept, no sabhava. As for attha and atta, they not only sound alike, the meaning is similar, but not the same. Larry 55831 From: "min thet soe" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 0:05pm Subject: how the karma transfered? minhtetsoe2001 Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be appreciated Thank you in advance 55832 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:14pm Subject: Re: how the karma transfered? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "min thet soe" wrote: > > Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life > to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be > appreciated > Thank you in advance ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Min Thet Soe, As soon as one assume that there is a life (atta) and there is another life (atta) which is after this current one and kamma in this life is transferred to next life there is wrong view in that notion. There is no soul at all. Tell me whiat is soul, which is soul, where is soul? With Metta, Htoo Naing 55833 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:21pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: Dear Htoo, Would you please elaborate on the "kamma" part of kamma.t.thaana? Given that kamma.t.thaana is the object of kamma-kusula-citta, what does this imply? Sincerely, Scott. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Scott, Kamma part of 'kamma.t.thaana' is kamma. That kamma is action. That action is sankhaara (of Dependent Origination). The leader of cittas that are doing kamma is cetanaa cetasika. That cetanaa is sahajaata- kamma paccaya. That kamma or action is bhavanaa kusala kamma. Or bhavanaa kusala action. Or simply it is 'the mind state that is meditating' or 'menal-cultivating'. Your second part of question implies that there is a citta. That citta is kaamaavacara mahaakusala citta and it is doing bhavanaa-kusala-kamma or kusala-action. Citta always has an object. Here the object is 'kammatthaana'. There is a couple. It is 'kamma.t.thaana' and 'bhavanaa'. Kamma.t.thaana is object. Bhavanaa is citta, doing the action of bhavanaa-kusala. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55834 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 700 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Hi Htoo, > > I would say a conditional relation is concept (pannatti) because it involves 2 dhammas and > 2 dhammas aren't "ultimate" (parama). So any combination is concept. For example: 2 > rupas, 2 cetasikas, object of consciousness, and consciousness rooted in greed > (lobhamulacitta) are all concepts. We could even say experience is concept, no sabhava. > > As for attha and atta, they not only sound alike, the meaning is similar, but not the same. > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, I agree. Atta and attha are close With Metta, Htoo Naing 55835 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:39pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 811 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' There are different kamma.t.thana. 40 objects or 40 objects of kamma.t.thanana or 40 kamma.t.thaanas help the mind well calm. These 40 things are all tranquility meditation and they all can help another type of meditation called 'insight meditation' or 'vipassanaa'. Kamma.t.thaana has been explained. Bhavana has also been explained. Bhavanaa is cultivation of good mind or profitable consciousness or wholesome consciousness or kusala cittas. Bhavana will frequently be referred in my writing as meditation. This means whenever I write meditation it automatically means 'bhaavanaa'. Here arises another 'word'. It is 'vipassanaa'. I also would like to introduce the fourth 'word' and it is 'satipa.t.thaana'. Vipassanaa = vi + passanaa Vi means 'distinguishingly' 'especially' 'distinctly' 'particularly' and 'passanaa' means 'seeing' 'having seen' 'realising' 'looking'. Satipa.t.thaana = sati + pa + .thaana Sati means 'mindfulness at profitable things' or 'remembrance to do profitable things or kusala things'. Pa means 'along' 'detail' 'as arising' 'in a wider sense'. .Thaana means 'place' 'station' 'site'. Vipassanaa and satipatthana can be interchangably used. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55836 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:53pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 812 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' Vipassanaa and satipatthana can be interchangably used. Here I would like to introduce the fifth 'word'. It is 'samatha'. Samatha is tranquility. Sama means 'equal' 'mixed' 'even' 'calm'. Atha means 'state' 'condition' 'circumstance'. Samatha means 'a state of calmness' or 'tranquility'. There are 40 kamma.t.thaana. All these 40 can be called as 'samatha kamma.t.thaana'. But all these 40 can also be used as 'vipassanaa kamma.t.thaana'. As vipassanaa is higher and there is tendency to argue on these matters of vipassanaa I would leave 'vipassanaa' for a while while I will be proceeding to discuss 'samatha kamma.t.thaana' There are 40 samatha-kammatthanas or '40 objects of meditation'. They are a) 10 kasina kammatthanas ( wholeness-circle object) b) 10 asubha kammatthanas (non-beautiful-foul object) c) 10 anussati kammatthanas(recollecting object) d) 04 brahmavihaara kammatthanas ( or 4 brahmaacariya kammatthanas) e) 04 aruppa kammatthaanas (non-material object) f) 01 ahaarepa.tikuulasa~n~naa kammatthana (food-aversive object) g) 01 catudhaatuvava.t.thaana kammatthana(4-elemental-discrimination) ------- 40 kammatthanas ( 7 types of samatha kammatthana) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55837 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] how the karma transfered? upasaka_howard Hi - In a message dated 2/18/06 6:08:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, minhtetsoe2001@... writes: > Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life > to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be > appreciated > Thank you in advance ======================== For a materialist, I can't think of what a plausible explanation would be. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55838 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] how the karma transfered? upasaka_howard Hi again - In a message dated 2/18/06 7:09:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > > Hi - > > In a message dated 2/18/06 6:08:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > minhtetsoe2001@... writes: > > >Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life > >to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be > >appreciated > >Thank you in advance > ======================== > For a materialist, I can't think of what a plausible explanation would > be. > ======================== I think I should have said more: My perspective is that everything there is, or at least everything that there can be known to be, is either an experiential operation or experiential content. I make no assumptions of rupas that exist other than as experiential content. As I view the matter, at this time, the experiential flow that I call "mine" involves a particular realm of experience, the human realm. It is like being tuned to a particular television channel. What is broadcast on that channel is determined by many factors, prominent among which is my kammic history. When I die, all that happens is a change of channel, which is slightly more dramatic than the moment-by-moment changes on the current channel.The fruition of kamma occurs all the time within an experiential flow, with moments of so-called death and rebirth being rather critical points for that fruition. How a materialist or a mind/matter dualist who accepts an objective external world of matter independent of experience could account for rebirth and the transfer of kamma from life to life is something I have never come across, and I have no expectation of ever seeing an adequate explanation. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55839 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:36pm Subject: Re: how the karma transfered? cherry_avium Hi Min, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "min thet soe" wrote: > > Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life > to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be > appreciated I think kamma and its result is causally connected. So what you mean by karma would be the connection/relation type between things, no something like a posession that can be transferred between lifes. And the kamma connection happens when there is ignorance (avija cause sankhara in paticcasamuppada). 55840 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:59pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) scottduncan2 > > "Kamma part of 'kamma.t.thaana' is kamma. That kamma is action. That > action is sankhaara (of Dependent Origination). The leader of cittas > that are doing kamma is cetanaa cetasika. That cetanaa is sahajaata- > kamma paccaya. That kamma or action is bhavanaa kusala kamma. Or > bhavanaa kusala action. Or simply it is 'the mind state that is > meditating' or 'menal-cultivating'. > > Your second part of question implies that > > there is a citta. That citta is kaamaavacara mahaakusala citta and > it is doing bhavanaa-kusala-kamma or kusala-action. Citta always has > an object. Here the object is 'kammatthaana'. > > There is a couple. It is > > 'kamma.t.thaana' and 'bhavanaa'. > > Kamma.t.thaana is object. > Bhavanaa is citta, doing the action of bhavanaa-kusala." Dear Htoo, Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I am able to learn, and this is good but its a stretch sometimes (also good) . . . Sincerely, Scott. 55841 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:04pm Subject: Re: how the karma transfered? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "min thet soe" wrote: > > Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life > to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be > appreciated > Thank you in advance > Hi Min, The abhidhamma explanation is that the seeds of all unripened kamma are passed on from one consciousness to the next, throughout life and from death consciousness to rebirth consciousness. Here is one article and there are many others on the web: http:// accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_46.html Larry 55842 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:17pm Subject: Re: how the karma transfered? cherry_avium Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < htootintnaing@...> wrote: > There is no soul at all. Tell me whiat is soul, which is soul, where > is soul? Only a matter of words, but I think "there is soul", "there is no soul ", "soul is neither exist nor unexist" is all connected with atta- ditthi. Why? Because it is still not freed from the idea of soul. If someone once wore a dark eyeglasses and thought that everything is dark, but then he remove his eyeglasses and now see that everything is actually bright, would not think "there is no darkness" or "there is no dark thing". Why? Because the things is the same. What is different is that once he thought that everything is dark, and now the view is eliminated. Only someone who still wear the dark glasses and on people telling him that the things are actually bright, would think "Oh, there is no darkness, my eyes are wrong" :-) But what would someone who still wear the dark glasses think better then? That what I see as dark is actually bright, or in the Buddha's words, that 'this body is not I', 'this feeling is not I', 'this perception is not I', 'this mind is not I', 'this thoughts is not I' : -) 55843 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:34pm Subject: Atta and thinking cherry_avium Hi everyone, Just a thought, but atta is the way we think about things and so we said 'This is my atta, that is mine' But because that is the wrong way of thinking (atta-ditthi) so the Buddha taught us that 'This is not my atta, that is not mine' But then on saying 'There is no atta' There is the change of the meaning of atta from the way of thinking (atta-ditthi) into something (dhamma). For example, someone thinks 'This is good' But when a wise person have told him 'This is not good' and then he thinks 'There is no goodness' Have change the meaning of 'is good' into 'goodness'. So maybe a study on the meaning of atta would decide, is it a noun or adjective :D But if atta is a noun, how can we said 'this body is I' unless they are the same thing. If there is no atta, then there would be no body too. But we can experience the body as hardness, movement, etc. So I prefer to take atta as an adjective or the way we think of things = ditthi :D. 55844 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 809 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We have so far discussed on citta (consciousness), cetasika (mental factor), different classifications on citta (different combinations of mental factors with citta), hetu (root), vedana (feeling), kicca (functions), .thaana (station), dvaara(door), aaramma.na(object), vatthu (base). Moreover, we also have discussed on viithi (procession of cittas), viithimutta or door-free states that are bhuumi or planes of existence and the lifespans of different beings in 31 planes of existence. Discussions on ruupa or material have also been posted (see in the old posts). Concepts (pannatti), nibbana and related things are also discussed and explained. After that Dependent Origination is extensively explained. Patthaana Dhamma is not separately posted. But Dhamma Thread posts are numbered as Dhamma Thread (701) to (807) as Patthaana Dhamma and the posts are at the specific site of mine. It is at 'www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana.html'. If someone is interested and has time to copy and paste he may and can do so. Please just include that it is Dhamma Thread posts by Htoo. Otherwise as I do not have enough time I will not copy and paste these pages as Dhamma Thread. Now come the chief portion called 'kamma.t.thaana' or 'meditation'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55845 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:20pm Subject: Re: Atta and thinking lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Just a thought, but atta is the way we think about things and so we > said > > 'This is my atta, that is mine' > > But because that is the wrong way of thinking (atta-ditthi) so the > Buddha taught us that > > 'This is not my atta, that is not mine' > > But then on saying > > 'There is no atta' > > There is the change of the meaning of atta from the way of thinking > (atta-ditthi) into something (dhamma). > > For example, someone thinks > > 'This is good' > > But when a wise person have told him > > 'This is not good' > > and then he thinks > > 'There is no goodness' > > Have change the meaning of 'is good' into 'goodness'. > > So maybe a study on the meaning of atta would decide, is it a noun or > adjective :D > > But if atta is a noun, how can we said 'this body is I' unless they > are the same thing. If there is no atta, then there would be no body > too. But we can experience the body as hardness, movement, etc. So I > prefer to take atta as an adjective or the way we think of things = > ditthi :D. > Hi Charles, I agree. We don't usually say this body is self, or this body is I. But we often think this body is mine, and we say I am hungry, I think, I am going. Even then we don't mean the going itself is I. We think the I is something separate, but we don't really have any idea what it is. Whatever this vague idea is we cling to it fiercely. Larry 55846 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:18pm Subject: Re: Atta and thinking cherry_avium Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > itself is I. We think the I is something separate, but we don't really have any idea what it is. > Whatever this vague idea is we cling to it fiercely. Do I get it right that you take the meaning of atta as 'something' separate :-? Then, if, for example, I cut a cow into ten parts and put the ten parts in ten different places, we (under atta-ditthi) would still think that the cow exist, because (in your point of view) the atta (of the cow) is separate. But we usually do not think about any cow anymore, instead we now think about flesh. Or, like the simile of the scarecrow, when a bird take a scarecrow as a human, here the thinking that 'this is a human' of the bird is atta- ditthi. The thought 'this is a human' exist only in the mind of the bird. Nothing to be said about the scarecrow itself. If the farmer speaks about the scarecrow, he would say 'that scarecrow ', but if the bird would speak about it, the bird would say 'that human'. Both refer to the same thing, they differ on how they view the 'characteristic' of the thing. Therefore I prefer to take atta as an adjective only (or how we look into things) and not as 'anything'. When flesh and blood are combined into one, we think of a being. Then atta would be only a matter of view, that is the view that 'this is I, this is mine'. 55847 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) jonoabb Htoo (and Scott) htootintnaing wrote: >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > wrote: > > > >Dear Htoo, > >Would you please elaborate on the "kamma" part of kamma.t.thaana? >Given that kamma.t.thaana is the object of kamma-kusula-citta, what >does this imply? > >Sincerely, > >Scott. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dear Scott, > >Kamma part of 'kamma.t.thaana' is kamma. That kamma is action. That >action is sankhaara (of Dependent Origination). The leader of cittas >that are doing kamma is cetanaa cetasika. That cetanaa is sahajaata- >kamma paccaya. That kamma or action is bhavanaa kusala kamma. Or >bhavanaa kusala action. Or simply it is 'the mind state that is >meditating' or 'menal-cultivating'. > > I have seen it explained that the literal meaning of kamma.t.thaana is 'field/place of action'. I would guess that the '.thaana' part is the same as in 'satipa.t.thaana' (in a subsequent post you explain .thaana as meaning place, situation or site). >Your second part of question implies that >there is a citta. That citta is kaamaavacara mahaakusala citta and >it is doing bhavanaa-kusala-kamma or kusala-action. Citta always has >an object. Here the object is 'kammatthaana'. > > As I understand it, 'kamma.t.thaana' is used to describe the object of samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility). There are 2 kinds of bhavana (mental development): samatha and vipassana. Both refer to consciousness accompanied by panna (wisdom). In the case of vipassana, the object of consciousness is a dhamma, and the panna is of a level that sees the true nature of the dhamma. In the case of samatha, the object may be a concept, and the panna knows the consciousness as kusala (but does not penetrate the true nature of a presently arising dhamma). The objects of samatha bhavana have been classified as 40. However, they are not all things that would be regarded as 'objects of meditation' (and personally I think the term 'meditation' is best avoided). When there is reflection on the teachings, and panna arises, that would be an instance of dhammanussati (mindfulness of the Dhamma), one of the 40 kamma.t.thaana. Thus we do not need to think of samatha bhavaana as something to be 'done'. >There is a couple. It is > >'kamma.t.thaana' and 'bhavanaa'. > >Kamma.t.thaana is object. >Bhavanaa is citta, doing the action of bhavanaa-kusala. > > I am not familiar with the term 'bhavanaa-kusala'. In my experience, bhavanaa as used in the texts always refers to kusala consciousness (accompanied by panna). Jon 55848 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 811 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Dhamma Friends, > >'Kamma.t.thaana' > >There are different kamma.t.thana. > >40 objects or 40 objects of kamma.t.thanana or 40 kamma.t.thaanas >help the mind well calm. These 40 things are all tranquility >meditation and they all can help another type of meditation called >'insight meditation' or 'vipassanaa'. > > When you say that the 40 kammatthaana (of samatha bhavanaa) can help vipassana bhavanaa, I think you are referring to the fact that right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined/explained in terms of the 4 jhaanas (the jhaanas being the the highest level of samatha). However, I think this is not the same thing at all as saying that the objects of samatha can help vipassana. Vipassana refers to the seeing of (presently arisen) dhammas as they truly are, and hence only a dhamma can be the object of vipassana bhavanaa. The object of samatha bhavanaa, on the other hand, may be a concept, and the accompanying panna is not of the level that sees the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. A person may develop samatha without having developed any of the panna that sees the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. There is nothing in the intrinsic nature of samatha that makes the arising of vipassana more likely. Everyone must first hear the teachings about dhammas and understand what has been heard. So the connection between samatha and vipassana is not as simply stated as we might think. >Kamma.t.thaana has been explained. Bhavana has also been explained. >Bhavanaa is cultivation of good mind or profitable consciousness or >wholesome consciousness or kusala cittas. Bhavana will frequently be >referred in my writing as meditation. This means whenever I write >meditation it automatically means 'bhaavanaa'. > > I'm not sure I see the purpose of using 'meditation' instead of 'bhavanaa'. 'Meditation' is usually taken to refer to a kind of 'practice' designed to create conditions for the arising of particular mindstates, whereas 'bhavanaa' refers to citta that is actually accompanied by panna of a certain level. To my mind, there is little if any correlation between the two terms (even where the professed aim of the meditation is samatha or vipassana). >Here arises another 'word'. It is 'vipassanaa'. I also would like to >introduce the fourth 'word' and it is 'satipa.t.thaana'. > >Vipassanaa = vi + passanaa > >Vi means 'distinguishingly' 'especially' 'distinctly' 'particularly' >and 'passanaa' means 'seeing' 'having seen' 'realising' 'looking'. > >Satipa.t.thaana = sati + pa + .thaana > >Sati means 'mindfulness at profitable things' or 'remembrance to do >profitable things or kusala things'. Pa means 'along' 'detail' 'as >arising' 'in a wider sense'. .Thaana means 'place' 'station' 'site'. > >Vipassanaa and satipatthana can be interchangably used. > >May you be free from suffering. > >With Unlimited Metta, > >Htoo Naing > > 55849 From: "Charles" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:56pm Subject: Plastic or glass ? cherry_avium A company named Avijja sells cool eye plastics (instead of eye glasses :P), but they say to everyone that it is made of glass. People like it, so they but it. Now everyone has it, and if they speak about it, they call it 'eye glasses': 'eye glasses that I wear, eye glasses that you wear'. Now the phrase 'eye glasses' has been the sammuti sacca. An expert of eye glasses would know about the fake glasses, and tell the people 'that is not eye glasses', 'that is plastic' (or in other words: 'body is not I', 'body is the ultimate reality of rupas'), ' not glasses' (or in other words: 'not I'). If it is glasses, it will not melt if burned to 800 Celcius (or in other words: 'if body is I, we can tell body: do not decay'). Now the question: what will the expert of eye glasses say about real eye glasses? Abhidhamma is like learning about glasses, so that we can know real glasses from fake one (plastic). Some people have 2 things, miss 1 thing, and forget 1 thing. What 2 things they have: (1) they know about glasses (2) they hear the words 'every glasses if fake' What 1 thing they miss: they miss about the eye plastics (and that the 2nd statement is meant for the eyeplastics) What 1 thing they forget: that they are wearing their own eye plastics By having these 2 things and missing 1 thing, they go their way taking that the real glasses they have learnt is fake, and even expanding the view saying (1) 'these real eye glasses are fake because they are not the super glasses', and (2) 'the super glasses is not exist', therefore (3) 'these real eye glasses are fake'. What do they mean with super glasses: Either (1) a glasses that will never be broken (2) the soul of glasses that lives inside each glasses. :-) 55850 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 812 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Dhamma Friends, > >'Kamma.t.thaana' > >Vipassanaa and satipatthana can be interchangably used. > >Here I would like to introduce the fifth 'word'. It is 'samatha'. >Samatha is tranquility. Sama means 'equal' 'mixed' 'even' 'calm'. >Atha means 'state' 'condition' 'circumstance'. Samatha means 'a state >of calmness' or 'tranquility'. > >There are 40 kamma.t.thaana. All these 40 can be called as 'samatha >kamma.t.thaana'. But all these 40 can also be used as 'vipassanaa >kamma.t.thaana'. > I am not familiar with the term 'vipassana kammatthaana', nor have I seen it said that the samatha kammatthaana 'can also be used as vipassana kammatthaana'. Perhaps you could give us a reference to where this is found in the texts. In my experience, all the standard texts treat samatha kammatthaana quited separately from vipassana bhavanaa. This is particularly so in both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, I believe. >As vipassanaa is higher and there is tendency to >argue on these matters of vipassanaa I would leave 'vipassanaa' for >a while while I will be proceeding to discuss 'samatha >kamma.t.thaana' > >There are 40 samatha-kammatthanas or '40 objects of meditation'. > > I thought you said the 'meditation' would be used as a translation of the term 'bhavanaa'. Here you seem to be using it as a translation of 'samatha'. Which is it to be? ;-)) Jon >They are > >a) 10 kasina kammatthanas ( wholeness-circle object) >b) 10 asubha kammatthanas (non-beautiful-foul object) >c) 10 anussati kammatthanas(recollecting object) >d) 04 brahmavihaara kammatthanas ( or 4 brahmaacariya kammatthanas) >e) 04 aruppa kammatthaanas (non-material object) >f) 01 ahaarepa.tikuulasa~n~naa kammatthana (food-aversive object) >g) 01 catudhaatuvava.t.thaana kammatthana(4-elemental-discrimination) >------- > 40 kammatthanas ( 7 types of samatha kammatthana) > >May you be free from suffering. > >With Unlimited Metta, > >Htoo Naing > > 55851 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how the karma transfered? jonoabb Larry and Min Larry wrote: >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "min thet soe" wrote: > > >>Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life >>to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be >>appreciated >>Thank you in advance >> >> > >Hi Min, > >The abhidhamma explanation is that the seeds of all unripened kamma are passed on from >one consciousness to the next, throughout life and from death consciousness to rebirth >consciousness. > Well put, Larry. And the significance of this is that the transfer of kamma from one life to the next is no different to its transfer from one moment to the next during the same lifetime. Does this make sense to you, Min? Jon 55852 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >What is bhavanaa? > >Bhaavanaa is 'mental cultivation of wholesome things' or it is >mental cultivation of 'profitable things'. It is growing of >something mainly in the mind. > > I like this definition of 'bhavanaa', especially the reference to 'growing' which, to me, conveys well the conditioned nature of its arising (except I'm not sure why you say 'mainly' in the mind). >That bhavanaa is kusala citta and it is bhaavanaa-kusala cittas. >These cittas are bhavanaa kusala kamma and they are bhaavanaa >kusala actions. >These bhavanaa kusala cittas take objects and the object they take >is called 'kammatthaana'. > > As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have not seen 'kammatthaana' used to refer to the object of vipassana bhavanaa, so if you are talking about bhavanaa in general here (and not just samatha bhavanaa), this may need revision. Jon 55853 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok jonoabb Hi Scott Azita may not have a chance to get to a computer for a day or two, so I hope you don't mind if I chip in with some preliminary comments on one part of your post. Scott Duncan wrote: >Dear Azita, > >... This too must just seem to be so, but what causes the same >sort of citta-constellation to arise time and time again? What >conditions a citta to arise with the same object as the last? I don't >know at all, not even enough to make my question clear! > > If you are thinking about samatha/jhaana where the same object is the object of multiple successive cittas, the answer is one or more of certain mental factors (cetasikas) that are collectively known as the jhaana factors. Despite the name 'jhaana', these factors apply to all levels of samatha and indeed to concentration that is akusala also. I'm not sure if I can list them off, but from memory they include cetasikas that are universals and even one aksuala cetasika (in other words, they are not limited to wholesome factors only, underscoring the fact that concentration on the same object is not per se a wholesome endeavour). Jon 55854 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Atta and thinking lbidd2 Charles: "Therefore I prefer to take atta as an adjective only (or how we look into things) and not as 'anything'. When flesh and blood are combined into one, we think of a being. Then atta would be only a matter of view, that is the view that 'this is I, this is mine'." Hi Charles, Self is a noun, I is a pronoun. We could even say 'self' means 'noun'. If self were an adjective it would be selfish. What kind of a fish is that? Larry 55855 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:57am Subject: Concepts and other irrealities (Was:Re: [dsg] clinging to concepts jwromeijn Hallo Larry, Jon, and all I try to restart our discussion of two weeks ago; if you think points are already discussed or that the discussion has taken another direction, tell me. Larry, in #55557: "What determines a conventional truth? If it is that many people believe it then it is true only as long as many people believe it. What if only one person believes that the earth is not the center of the universe? Because only one holds this idea is it false? What if one day 51% believe one thing, then the next day 51% believe the opposite and it goes back and forth like that for years?" Joop: do I understand you well when you in fact state: There is only one truth, that is the one and only Dhamma? And that that truth can be expressed in conventional language and in ultimate language, with the advantage of ultimate language that it is errorfree? But if we don't talk about truths but about realities, than my question to you is: is there (conventional) reality outside the Dhamma? If I understand you well, you say "no". I think the Buddha says: there is but that realitiy is not important, the Buddha was silent about that. And if I'm not silent about it, I think we can experience non-Dhammic conventional reality. More precise: experiences which starts making a theory about the reality which is tue as long as it is not falsified. Jon, your messages #55607 and #55617 didn't give me any problem: I think we agree. Metta Joop 55856 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:47pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 813 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' There are three bhavanaas. They are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximity cultivation) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation) Before one starts to have parikamma bhaavanaa there is fore-bhavanaa and this bhavana is not yet a true one as there are mixtures with akusala dhamma before one reaches preparatory cultivation. Once well prepared for mental cultivation there arise 'parikamma bhavanaa' or 'preparatory cultivation'. This preparation is for arising of access cultivation or proximity cultivation, which again is very close or proximate to appanaa bhavanaa or 'portal cultivation'. I give the name 'portal' because it is portal to 'real bhavanaa'. It is dooe-way to real bhavanaa which is truely kusala dhamma and unshakable by any of opposition when such 'portal cultivation' arises. It can be called as 'absorptive cultivation' or jhaana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55857 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:48pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 814 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' There are three bhavanaas. They are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximity cultivation) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation) As 10 kasi.na kamma.t.thaana can give rise to all these three bhavanaa we will first look into the 'kasi.na dhamma' or 'kasi.na kamma.t.thaana'. Kasi.na is a Paa.li word and it means 'whole' 'the whole' 'impartiality' 'universality' 'totality'. There are 10 kasi.na kamma.t.thaanas. They are 1. pathavi kasi.na (earth kasi.na) 2. tejo kasi.na (fire kasi.na) 3. vayo kasi.na (wind kasi.na) 4. apo kasi.na (water kasi.na) 5. niila kasi.na (blue kasi.na) [I prefer to translate as brown/dark] 6. piita kasi.na (yellow kasi.na) 7. lohita kasi.na(red kasi.na) 8. odaata kasi.na(white kasi.na) 9. aaloka kasi.na (light kasi.na) 10.aakaasa kasi.na(space kasi.na) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55858 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have not seen 'kammatthaana' used to refer to the object of vipassana bhavanaa, so if you are talking about bhavanaa in general here (and not just samatha bhavanaa), this may need revision. Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Jon, You and all members may like if I say anything can be the object of satipatthana. Let us forget pannatti for a while. Any object can be the object of satipatthaana. All 40 object can well be the object of vipassanaa. With respect, Htoo Naing 55859 From: "Charles" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 0:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Atta and thinking cherry_avium Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > Self is a noun, I is a pronoun. We could even say 'self' means 'noun '. > If self were an adjective it would be selfish. What kind of a fish is > that? Adjective: a word naming an attribute of a noun This body is atta, etc = we have atta ditthi on body I agree that the word is a noun, but as to the meaning... that is what I proposed, that its meaning is like an adjective. 55860 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:50pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Kamma.t.thaana' > > This is a big topic. It is a Paa.li word and it is made up of 'kamma > and .thaana'. This makes 'kamma-.t-.thaana' or kamma.t.thaana'. In > the > previous post I just called it as 'meditation'. But it is not enough > and even it may lead to wrong understanding. Hi Htoo, Dhamma Thread 809 didn't make it to dsg yahoo. Would you repost it? Thanks. Larry 55861 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:24am Subject: What is belief in kamma? by Thanissaro Bhikkhu antony272b2 "Some people have problems with the teaching on kamma, but what exactly is the Buddha asking you to believe in when he asks you to have conviction in kamma? First, action really is happening -- it's not an illusion. Second, you really are responsible for your actions. There's no outside force like the stars or some good or evil being acting through you. When you're conscious, you're the one who decides what to do. Third, your actions have results -- you're not just writing on the water -- and those results can be good or bad depending on the quality of the intention behind the act. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karma-Buddhism/message/4 http://www.audiodharma.org/documents/paramis/DiscernmentTB.html From: "Giving Rise to Discernment" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, from Meditations: Forty Dhamma Talks Antony: Rebirth and planes of existence are corollaries of the law of kamma. 55862 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:46pm Subject: The Three Diseases ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: On the Three Types of Persons, who are similar to Sick People: There are three kinds of bodily sick people: One will recover by himself, even without any doctor & any medicine.. One will never recover, even if treated by the best doctor & best medicine.. One will only recover if treated by the right medicine after the doctors advice.. It is for the sake of this last person that doctors work and medicine is made! Similarly with those mentally infected by grades of greed, hate & ignorance: One will cure & free himself, even without meeting this Buddha-Dhamma... One will never be cured, even if taught this Dhamma by the Buddha himself... One will be cured & freed, if & only if, taught & learning this Buddha-Dhamma... It is for the sake of this last type of person, that this Dhamma should be shared! Source (abbreviated excerpt): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya. Sutta III:22 The sick [I:120] Gilana http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 55863 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 809 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We have so far discussed on citta (consciousness), cetasika (mental factor), different classifications on citta (different combinations of mental factors with citta), hetu (root), vedana (feeling), kicca (functions), .thaana (station), dvaara(door), aaramma.na(object), vatthu (base). Moreover, we also have discussed on viithi (procession of cittas), viithimutta or door-free states that are bhuumi or planes of existence and the lifespans of different beings in 31 planes of existence. Discussions on ruupa or material have also been posted (see in the old posts). Concepts (pannatti), nibbana and related things are also discussed and explained. After that Dependent Origination is extensively explained. Patthaana Dhamma is not separately posted. But Dhamma Thread posts are numbered as Dhamma Thread (701) to (807) as Patthaana Dhamma and the posts are at the specific site of mine. It is at 'www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana.html'. If someone is interested and has time to copy and paste he may and can do so. Please just include that it is Dhamma Thread posts by Htoo. Otherwise as I do not have enough time I will not copy and paste these pages as Dhamma Thread. Now come the chief portion called 'kamma.t.thaana' or 'meditation'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55864 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:56am Subject: Re: how the karma transfered? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > htootintnaing@> wrote: > > There is no soul at all. Tell me whiat is soul, which is soul, > where > > is soul? > > Only a matter of words, but I think "there is soul", "there is no soul > ", "soul is neither exist nor unexist" is all connected with atta- > ditthi. Why? Because it is still not freed from the idea of soul. > > If someone once wore a dark eyeglasses and thought that everything is > dark, but then he remove his eyeglasses and now see that everything > is actually bright, would not think "there is no darkness" or "there > is no dark thing". Why? Because the things is the same. > What is different is that once he thought that everything is dark, > and now the view is eliminated. > > Only someone who still wear the dark glasses and on people telling > him that the things are actually bright, would think "Oh, there is no > darkness, my eyes are wrong" :-) > > But what would someone who still wear the dark glasses think better > then? That what I see as dark is actually bright, or in the Buddha's > words, that 'this body is not I', 'this feeling is not I', 'this > perception is not I', 'this mind is not I', 'this thoughts is not I' : > -) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Charles, Thank you very much indeed. Htoo Naing 55865 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 811 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo > > htootintnaing wrote: > > >Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > >'Kamma.t.thaana' > > > >There are different kamma.t.thana. > > > >40 objects or 40 objects of kamma.t.thanana or 40 kamma.t.thaanas > >help the mind well calm. These 40 things are all tranquility > >meditation and they all can help another type of meditation called > >'insight meditation' or 'vipassanaa'. > > > > > > When you say that the 40 kammatthaana (of samatha bhavanaa) can help > vipassana bhavanaa, I think you are referring to the fact that right > concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined/explained in terms > of the 4 jhaanas (the jhaanas being the the highest level of samatha). > However, I think this is not the same thing at all as saying that the > objects of samatha can help vipassana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. I did not say 40 objects of samatha are direct object of vipassanaa. But all these 40 can be based for vipassanaa naana. That is the object of vipassanaa. With respect, Htoo Naing 55866 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 0:51pm Subject: Re: A question buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Nice to hear again of you. James: Nice to hear from you also. Sorry it took me so long to respond but I have been rather busy lately. Although I am in a Portugese internet > cafe now and only wanted to lurk, still a reaction. James: Hmmm...Portugese internet! How interesting. > I think your question is rather theoretical: If a layperson gets a > arahant, he or she knows intuively what to do: going to a sangha or > just keep calm where he or she is. Don"t you think a arahant has a > perfect intuition? James: Oh yeah, of course. I'm sure an arahant would know what to do and wouldn't need to go running to the texts to figure it out! ;- )) My question was purely academic. I wondered what is is about the householder life (no matter what form that householder life might take) that is antithetical to being an arahant- to such an extent that death/parinabbana would be the only option. Then I also wondered how it is that paccekabuddhas survive since they don't have a sangha to join. What do they do? Become a hermit? But even then they are technically living a householder life- except their house is a cave instead of a brick and morter house ;-)) So, you see, not really worried for the benefit of arahants, I just think too much!! ;-)) > What can be the reason that commentaries stated this about seven > days etc.? I think this monks did not like the idea that they as > monks tried whole there life day and night to get a arahant and a > (fucking) layperson will do it? James: Hmmm...I detect some bitterness here. Take it easy. It could very well be that monks were trying to glorify their position by creating this commentary. Could be; I am open to all possibilities. Personally, I'm not sure. Maybe there is something I am missing. So far, no one has provided an explanation I concur with. If, however, I thought the commentary was falsefied, you know I wouldn't hesitate to say so. ;-)) > But it is theoretically for another reason to: I think we can better > work on our first steps on the buddhistic path; and when we get a > streamenterer there is time enough to study what to do then. James: Okay, that is a very practical approach. But, just a side- thought, when the goal of stream-winner has been accomplished, there really is no futher need for study. It is inevitable, it is guaranteed, that one will reach arahanthood. Study of the dhamma, at that point, is really no longer needed. But, I suspect that the sotapanna would still study all the same. ;-)) > > Monasticism (what have discussed about it before) is a cultural > invention, a very good one but still something that belongs to the > conventional realities and not to the ultimate realities. James: Thanks for this. I am more biased toward monasticism but I am trying to keep an open mind. Now, since I realize that I cannot become a monk, I have to make the best of the situation. However, I don't want to fool myself into thinking that I can easily accomplish all that a monastic can accomplish, if that isn't the case at all. It seems that our viewpoints (yours, mine, and everyone's) are influenced more by personal biases than facts. > > Metta > > Joop > (Hoping to hear more of you)~ Metta, James 55867 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok scottduncan2 "If you are thinking about samatha/jhaana where the same object is the object of multiple successive cittas, the answer is one or more of certain mental factors (cetasikas) that are collectively known as the jhaana factors. Despite the name 'jhaana', these factors apply to all levels of samatha and indeed to concentration that is akusala also. I'm not sure if I can list them off, but from memory they include cetasikas that are universals and even one aksuala cetasika (in other words, they are not limited to wholesome factors only, underscoring the fact that concentration on the same object is not per se a wholesome endeavour)." Dear Jon, Thank you for your reply. The jhaana factors would serve as an example for the process I,m wondering about. I see that there can be wrong concentration (raptly concentrating on the performance of an exotic dancer, for example). I guess I am wondering how an intention to concentrate can become concentration; how and whether one can "control" a sustained emotional state - jhaana serving as an example. I realise that one cannot consciously will citta with kusula cetasikas to arise. Does wanting them to make it so? Is the intention, say to experience jhaana, capable of conditioning such factors to arise? I know other conditions need to be in place but just for clarifying the question . . . Sincerely, Scott. 55868 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 810 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Htoo (and Scott) I am not familiar with the term 'bhavanaa-kusala'. In my experience, bhavanaa as used in the texts always refers to kusala consciousness (accompanied by panna). Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, There are 1. daana-kusala 2. siila-kusala 3. bhaavanaa-kusala With respect, Htoo Naing 55869 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:49pm Subject: Re: Greetings from Nina philofillet Hi Jon, Nina and all I look forward to hearing Acharn Sujin talk about these points, and to read what Nina has to say about them. >> -- the development of the path requires detachment from the beginning I have heard this a lot. As I said to Howard the other day, at first I thought this was contradictory. How can these be detachment from the beginning when detachment is the goal? But I have been understanding (experiencing?) how much detachment(not much, but a little) there can be even through intellectual understanding. (But I don't know if this is what Acharn Sujin means by "detachment from the beginning.) These days I am finding a lot in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas about something I had not considered before - knowing vipaka (result) from kusala or akusala citta. For example: "If we understand at which moment there is vipaka, result produced by past kamma, such as seeing now, can we still believe that there is a self who can cause the arising of particular vipakas? If we have right understanding of the citta that is cause and of the citta that is result, we shall know the meaning of anatta. We shall understand anatta when seeing, hearing etc. This understanding can be a supporting condition for sati to be aware of the realities that apear at such moments and then there will be understanding of the different characteristics of the realities that arise, each because of its own conditions." Obviously, we are a long, long way from knowing this sort of thing directly, but I really do find that understanding it intellectually is deeply helpful. It comes off the page of the book and permeates our daily life. It can. It will. Not *should* or we screw it up with too much lobha. Nina, in one of your books you say "it is adamant to know the jati of the citta" and at first, naturally, I took that to mean adamant to know kusala from akusala. That is our tendency when we come to Dhamma. Wanting more kusala and less akusala. Wanting wanting wanting. Now I can see that there is much more detachment, much more potential for liberating right understanding to arise from understanding moments of vipaka from moments of productive cittas, and seeing how utterly conditioned it is, perfectly conditioned, anatta. And this is NOT a recipe for hopeless passiveness. > -- wanting to have more understanding (however expressed) is just self Yes, but I think at even a more basic level it is so much lobha. I think we can warn about Dhamma-related lobha more (as opposed to the unavioudable lobha for sense objects) remembering that lobha and wholesome chanda are not so easy to distinguish. In one talk Acharn Sujin says that knowing lobha from chanda is so obvious that there is no point in discussing it. I don't get that. I think mistaking lobha for chanda is what gets us in trouble in our "practice." > -- what is difficult cannot be made to be easy; a child cannot become a > grown-up ahead of time We should accept the teachings and reflect on them from a respectful distance instead of speculating on them based on our own examined experience. Aspiring to experience dhammas to more than an iota of the way they were experienced by the Buddha and the early Arahants is not wise. If it happens, it happens. Otherwise it is likely lobha driving us down the garden path. > > Nina and Lodewijk will be leaving Thailand on Monday morning, so expect > to see her back later in the week. > > Lodewijk also sends his regards Hello to both of you and talk to you again in two weeks. Phil 55870 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Sorry to double-park on my own question . . . I said: > "I guess I am wondering how an intention to concentrate can become > concentration; how and whether one can "control" a sustained emotional > state - jhaana serving as an example. I realise that one cannot > consciously will citta with kusula cetasikas to arise. Does wanting > them to make it so? Is the intention, say to experience jhaana, > capable of conditioning such factors to arise? I know other > conditions need to be in place but just for clarifying the question . . ." In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha I was studying up and may have answered my own question at least to some extent, but just to get some guidance: Cetasika ekaggataa is defined to be "[the] mental state [which] prevents its adjuncts from dissipation and fixes them on one object . . . 'It is the germ of all attentive, selected, focussed, or concentrated consciousness,'" (pp. 108-109). When ekaggataa arises with citta it performs the function described. Do you think this is part of what I am wondering about? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > 55871 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:10pm Subject: Re: Concepts and other irrealities (Was:Re: [dsg] clinging to concepts lbidd2 Joop: "do I understand you well when you in fact state: There is only one truth, that is the one and only Dhamma? And that that truth can be expressed in conventional language and in ultimate language, with the advantage of ultimate language that it is errorfree?" Hi Joop, I don't have a clear vision of what truth is but here are some thoughts. In the context of Buddha dhamma ultimate truth is the truth of ultimate realities: what they are, their workings and relationships. Insofar as conventional language refers correctly and truly to formations of ultimate realities, then conventional truth will be the same as ultimate truth. A person is impermanent, unsatisfactory, and notself, as is a rupa. If the statement, "it is raining" is true then it can be explained on the level of ultimate reality. The statement,"I like chocolate", can be truly explained on an ultimate level or can be erroneously explained _either_ on an ultimate level or a conventional level. Ultimate language does not guarantee truth and conventional language does not guarantee error. Another point: truth and reality are different. Truth is like a finger pointing at the moon; it isn't the moon. In that sense we can't _say_ what is real. We can only make a gesture in the general direction of realty. J: " But if we don't talk about truths but about realities, than my question to you is: is there (conventional) reality outside the Dhamma? If I understand you well, you say "no". I think the Buddha says: there is but that reality is not important, the Buddha was silent about that. And if I'm not silent about it, I think we can experience non-Dhammic conventional reality. More precise: experiences which starts making a theory about the reality which is true as long as it is not falsified." L: I agree there is more reality than the Buddha talked about. Reality is infinite and there are many principles of the manifestations of rupa and psychology that the Buddha didn't discuss. His aim was to teach only one thing: the end of suffering. Larry 55872 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Atta and thinking lbidd2 Charles: "Adjective: a word naming an attribute of a noun This body is atta, etc = we have atta ditthi on body I agree that the word is a noun, but as to the meaning... that is what I proposed, that its meaning is like an adjective." Hi Charles, Howard and I were discussing this a little while back. I don't remember exactly how it went but in one sutta the Buddha said there are 4 kinds of self view: rupa as self, self possesses rupa, self is in rupa, rupa is in self; and the same for the other khandhas. "Attribute of rupa" could be self is in rupa. Generally, what the Buddha meant by "self" was whatever was permanent or could be controlled. I think we have a slightly different understanding of control and think self would be whatever could control something. Either way, the opposite of control is dependent arising. Imo, "permanence" would be anything that seems to last, even for a little while. We think we are the same person from moment to moment, day to day, and year to year. In the sutta where Vajira discusses a chariot or carriage, self view seems to be the view of an undivided whole. In the "Lump of Foam Sutta" self seems to be whatever is solid and graspable. Self view is the illusion that we can cling (upadana) to something solid and lasting. I would say these views could be either beliefs (ditthi) or perversions of perception (sanna vipallasa). Larry 55873 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 812 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo Jon wrote: I am not familiar with the term 'vipassana kammatthaana', nor have I seen it said that the samatha kammatthaana 'can also be used as vipassana kammatthaana'. Perhaps you could give us a reference to where this is found in the texts. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Jon, maybe this is matter of word usage. You understand more than me I think. In kamma.t.thaana portion it is written 1. samatha kamma.t.thaana 2. vipassanaa kamma.t.thaana Samatha kammatthana is 'the object where samatha-bhavanaa-kamma- cittas occupy. Vipassanaa kammatthana is 'the object where vipassanaa-bhaavanaa- kamma-cittas occupy. The 2nd has to be naama or ruupa. I said all 40 can be based. But I did not say these 40 are direct object of vipassanaa-bhavanaa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: In my experience, all the standard texts treat samatha kammatthaana quited separately from vipassana bhavanaa. This is particularly so in both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, I believe. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Please see above. It might be word matter. ------------------------------------------------------------------ >As vipassanaa is higher and there is tendency to >argue on these matters of vipassanaa I would leave 'vipassanaa' for >a while while I will be proceeding to discuss 'samatha >kamma.t.thaana' > >There are 40 samatha-kammatthanas or '40 objects of meditation'. > > I thought you said the 'meditation' would be used as a translation of the term 'bhavanaa'. Here you seem to be using it as a translation of 'samatha'. Which is it to be? ;-)) Jon -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have not checked the word 'meditation'. It might well be fit or not. Oxford Dictionary says; meditate (v) = exercise the mind in religious contemplation With respect, Htoo Naing PS: The mind is being exercised to take the object nama or ruupa and to see the characters on them = vipasanaa-bhaavanaa. The mind is exercised to take the samatha object and to see the samatha sign (pannatti) = samatha-bhaavanaa. Both have pannaa. But different. 55874 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:16pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 377- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3] Defilements can be classified in many different ways and each classification reminds us of the danger of akusala. There is another group of defilements which is again completely different, namely the group of the latent tendencies or anusayas. In the Dhammasangaùi the latent tendencies have not been classified as a group. Only lobha as “latent bias”, anusaya, has been specifically mentioned among the many aspects of lobha (§1059). The Atthasåliní (II, Part II, Chapter II, 366) comments: “As latent bias greed lies chronically in us as a strong (tendency)”. There is not only the latent tendency of lobha, there are seven akusala dhammas which can be classified as latent tendencies and these lie dormant in us as strong leanings. We read in the Book of Analysis (Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §949) that there are seven anusayas(1): the latent tendency of lust for sense pleasure (kåmarågånusaya) the latent tendency of aversion (paìighånusaya) the latent tendency of conceit (månånusaya) the latent tendency of wrong view (diììhånusaya) the latent tendency of doubt (vicikicchånusaya) the latent tendency of lust for becoming (bhava-rågånusaya) the latent tendency of ignorance (avijjånusaya) The classification of akusala dhammas by way of latent tendencies reminds us of their stubbornness, their pertinaciousness. The latent tendencies are like microbes investing the body. They are latent but they may become active at any moment, when conditions are favourable 2. Latent tendencies are hard to get rid of. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XXII, 60) about the stubbornness *** 1) See also Visuddhimagga XXII, 60, and Yamaka, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, Part VII (translation: Guide through the Abhidhamma Piìaka, Ven.Nyanatiloka, BPS. Kandy, 1971). ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 2 finished!) Metta, Sarah ====== 55875 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:25pm Subject: Openhanded Generosity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Generosity: The first mental Perfection: And what is the treasure of generosity? When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness, living at home, is freely generous & open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to every request &, enjoying the giving of alms. Such is this treasure called generosity. AN VII 6 Just as a filled pot, which is overturned pours out all its water, leaving nothing back, even & exactly so should one give to those in need. whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot, holding nothing back. Jataka Nidana [128-129] The Generosity of Giving, The Kindness in Speech, The Benefit of Service, The Impartiality treating all Alike, These 4 threads of sympathy upholds this world like the axle do the cart. AN II 32 Giving food, one gives & gets strength Giving clothes, one gives & gets beauty Giving light, one gives & gets vision Giving transportation, one gives & gets ease. Giving shelter one gives all, Yet one who instructs in the True Dhamma - The supreme Teaching of the Buddhas - Such one gives the quite divine ambrosia! SN I 32 These are these five rewards of generosity: One is liked and charming to people at large, One is admired & respected by wise people, one's good reputation is spread wide about, One does not neglect a householder's true duties, and with the break-up of the body - at the moment of death - one reappears in a happy destination, in the plane of the divine worlds. AN V.35 There are these two kinds of gifts: material gifts & gifts of Dhamma. The supreme gift is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: material sharing & sharing of Dhamma. The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of help: Material help & help with the Dhamma. This is the supreme of the two: help with the Dhamma . It 98 The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts. Dhammapada 354 The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the king deity in disguise, who desired to test him. He remembered "While I was wishing to give, while I was giving and after this giving there was neither contrariety nor opposition in mind as it was for the purpose of awakening itself! Neither were these eyes nor the rest of myself disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave the eyes." The Basket of Conduct Cariyapitaka I-8 Full story: Sivi Jataka no. 499. The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body as alms by jumping into a fire: He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food. Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms there was none equal to me. In alms I had thereby reached ultimate perfection." From then & the rest of this world-cycle the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign. Sasa-Jataka no. 316 Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job, position, wife, & child is the first perfection of giving. Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, & senses is the second higher perfection of giving. Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the ultimate perfection of giving. The clarifier of sweet meaning 89 (Commentary on Buddhavamsa) Madhuratthavilasini [59] Venerable Buddhadatta: 5th century. Generosity is the first mental perfection (parami): Clinging creates internal panic and social tension. Giving creates internal elation and social harmony... What is gladly given returns more than thousandfold. PS: Please included the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 55876 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how the karma transfered? sarahprocter... Hi Min Thet Soe, Welocme here to DSG! --- min thet soe wrote: > Is there any one tell me briefly how the karma transfer from one life > to next without the soul? Or referring to any online articles will be > appreciated > Thank you in advance .... S: I think others have already responded to your good question, so I'll look f/w to reading their answers. I'm just back from a trip, so behind with my reading. I'll look forward to reading your further responses. Even now, what is experienced is conditioned by what was experienced before, but the previous experience has completely gone. Would you kindly tell us where you live and anything else about your background/interest in Buddhism? Also, it helps if everyone signs off with their name, so we know how to address you and if everyone makes it clear if their post is addressed to 'all' or anyone in particular. Metta, Sarah p.s I think you would find it helpful to read the first 3 chapters of Nina Van Gorkom's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' which can be found on this link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ The third chapter deals with kamma and vipaka (the result of kamma). Please let us know if you have any comments on it. ======= 55877 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:11pm Subject: Life in a dream sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Slowly catching up and look forward to picking up various threads. Our last discussion with A.Sujin on Saturday afternoon was in the usual room, this time packed with friends, including more old-timers. I made a note of a couple of points K.Sujin was stressing at the end which struck me as being really essential to appreciate: a) The first was that everything we find important, all the pleasure and unpleasantness in life, is not important at all. It's all gone already....like a dream. b) The other was that direct awareness of dhammas (realities) has to be now and has to be very natural. There is no space or time for lobha (attachment) to take us away to some other practice. In other words, when we think about some other way or time, it shows our lack of confidence in the development of awareness and understanding of realities. So it always comes back to the present dhammas - good or bad, here or there. Seeing or visible object are no different whether in the quiet or noisy place, whether in the hot or cold place, whether at the temple, foundation or at work. Thanks again to everyone who has been participating with the excellent threads during our absence. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, one of your recent messages on sila, understanding and concentration was read out by Betty in this last session we had:-). I hope she may add some further comments here....:-)). ================================== 55878 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:45am Subject: Re: Life in a dream (Dream and Stream ) htootintnaing Dream and Stream Dream life, been striked Been left, seen jet. Stream life, weaned bite Been left, seen daft. Htoo Naing ( 20.02.06 ) Dream life (vipaaka) have been presented (striked). They have been left like a jet-plane which has been seen but not there any longer. Life in a stream (stream-enterer) weaned biting on craving dictated things. The life as a daft has been left as the life of daft has been seen. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: Very nice summary on the meeting, in deed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Slowly catching up and look forward to picking up various threads. > > Our last discussion with A.Sujin on Saturday afternoon was in the usual > room, this time packed with friends, including more old-timers. > > I made a note of a couple of points K.Sujin was stressing at the end which > struck me as being really essential to appreciate: > > a) The first was that everything we find important, all the pleasure and > unpleasantness in life, is not important at all. It's all gone > already....like a dream. > > b) The other was that direct awareness of dhammas (realities) has to be > now and has to be very natural. There is no space or time for lobha > (attachment) to take us away to some other practice. > > In other words, when we think about some other way or time, it shows our > lack of confidence in the development of awareness and understanding of > realities. So it always comes back to the present dhammas - good or bad, > here or there. Seeing or visible object are no different whether in the > quiet or noisy place, whether in the hot or cold place, whether at the > temple, foundation or at work. > > Thanks again to everyone who has been participating with the excellent > threads during our absence. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Howard, one of your recent messages on sila, understanding and > concentration was read out by Betty in this last session we had:- ). I hope > she may add some further comments here....:-)). > ================================== > 55879 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:51am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 377- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (a) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3] > > Defilements can be classified in many different ways and each > classification reminds us of the danger of akusala. There is another > group of defilements which is again completely different, namely > the group of the latent tendencies or anusayas. > > In the Dhammasangaùi the latent tendencies have not been > classified as a group. Only lobha as "latent bias", anusaya, has > been specifically mentioned among the many aspects of lobha > (§1059). > > The Atthasåliní (II, Part II, Chapter II, 366) comments: > "As latent bias greed lies chronically in us as a strong (tendency)". > > There is not only the latent tendency of lobha, there are seven > akusala dhammas which can be classified as latent tendencies > and these lie dormant in us as strong leanings. We read in the > Book of Analysis (Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §949) that there are > seven anusayas(1): > > the latent tendency of lust for sense pleasure (kåmarågånusaya) > the latent tendency of aversion (paìighånusaya) > the latent tendency of conceit (månånusaya) > the latent tendency of wrong view (diììhånusaya) > the latent tendency of doubt (vicikicchånusaya) > the latent tendency of lust for becoming (bhava-rågånusaya) > the latent tendency of ignorance (avijjånusaya) > > The classification of akusala dhammas by way of latent tendencies > reminds us of their stubbornness, their pertinaciousness. The latent > tendencies are like microbes investing the body. They are latent > but they may become active at any moment, when conditions are > favourable 2. Latent tendencies are hard to get rid of. > We read in the Visuddhimagga (XXII, 60) about the stubbornness > *** > 1) See also Visuddhimagga XXII, 60, and Yamaka, the sixth Book of the > Abhidhamma, Part VII (translation: Guide through the Abhidhamma Piìaka, > Ven.Nyanatiloka, BPS. Kandy, 1971). > ***** > (Different Groups of Defilements Part 2 finished!) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah (and Nina), Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu. The more we learn about akusala, the more we learn how bad they are. The more we learn how bad they are the more we will have good mind. The more we have good mind , the less we will have bad mind. The less we have bad mind the less will there be akusala in so call 'our selves' or us. With respect, Htoo Naing 55880 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:06am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 815 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' When kamma.t.thaana are done there arise different objects during the activities. This is always true for any activities. Even right now we all are having different objects. So does in case of kammatthaana. The first thing to do is to look at 'the earth'. It is natural ground of the earth that we can see right now. If this earth is working for kasina then there is no need for any preparation. However if this does not work then one has to prepare for the object. Example is that he or she has to collect a few things. That is a flat disk of half-inch depth and about 24 to 27 inches diametered circular shape, yellowy earth. The earth (material or substance) has to be put into the disk and make it evenly spread and the surface is smoothed and well prepared. As this is a tranquility practice, one will need a quiet place with minimal disturbance. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55881 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:39am Subject: Re: Life in a dream philofillet HI Sarah and all checking in at an internet cafe at the airport as our flight has been delayed for 3 hours > a) The first was that everything we find important, all the pleasure and > unpleasantness in life, is not important at all. yes, understanding this even intellectually does help so much. This morning I read in Survery of Paramattha Dhammas about how our possessions for example, are all imagined when you get down to realities. You know, the old cliche "life is an illusion" really is a truth in the light of the Buddha's teaching of paramattha dhammas. Which doesn't mean, of course, that our accumulations don't lead us through a life full of friends and loved ones, and that we need be negligent towards them simply because we understand that they don't exist in the light of the Buddha's deepest teachings! > It's all gone > already....like a dream. Yes, but I have trouble with the one talk in which Nina tells of someone who is worried about commiting akusala kamma patha of a severe degree and Acharn Sujin says "it's already gone." No, it can be avoided. Again, that's a very crude operation that can apply to premeditated akusala, which is really pretty rare. Wrong speech, temper outburts, even killing - there is no way to avoid them if conditions propel us into them. And when they do occur, the above teaching is so helpful. Only makes it worse if we fret about the evil that we have done. Seeing or visible object are no different whether in the > quiet or noisy place, whether in the hot or cold place, whether at the > temple, foundation or at work. This is so true. I do have some unsettled doubts about samadhi. The sutta that says samadhi is a necessary precondition for right understanding to see things as they really are - it is pretty straightforward. (I think it is around SN 35:40 - the last sutta in the "The All" series. I know there is that eggysomething cetasika with every citta, and that it is samadhi and can be right samadhi, but still don't understand how "develop concentration" can be satisfied by that. But I know it is also not a matter of sitting on a cushion and deciding to concentrate on something - that is just thinking with lobha. But I'm in no hurry to have this figured out. Phil 55890 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] What is belief in kamma? by Thanissaro Bhikkhu dacostacharles This is good or shall I say I agree. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- Subject: [dsg] What is belief in kamma? by Thanissaro Bhikkhu "Some people have problems with the teaching on kamma, but what exactly is the Buddha asking you to believe in when he asks you to have conviction in kamma? First, action really is happening -- it's not an illusion. Second, you really are responsible for your actions. There's no outside force like the stars or some good or evil being acting through you. When you're conscious, you're the one who decides what to do. Third, your actions have results -- you're not just writing on the water -- and those results can be good or bad depending on the quality of the intention behind the act. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/karma-Buddhism/message/4 http://www.audiodharma.org/documents/paramis/DiscernmentTB.html From: "Giving Rise to Discernment" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, from Meditations: Forty Dhamma Talks Antony: Rebirth and planes of existence are corollaries of the law of kamma. 55891 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How can we say "there are few, if any, like that today" etc? jonoabb Hi Phil Sorry for the delay, but actually I don't have any sutta or other references directly on point anyway ;-)) Phil wrote: > phil: Perhaps we can pick this up again when I get back from >Canada - leaving the day after tomorrow. It's not a major point but >it would be better for me to have some textual references instead of >just assuming and obnoxiously stating, as I do, that we today are >culturally conditioned to have far too much desire for fast results >(ie in the space of one lifetime.) > Well it's not anything to do with cultural conditioning, as I see it. There was plenty of wrong view in the time of the Buddha, but it was of course also a time when many who were ripe for enlightenment were born, so that that kamma could ripen. I don't see anything obnoxious about putting that forward without 'proof' in the form of a direct quote. It is I believe generally accepted that the sasana gradually declines and then disappears altogether, so that must surely mean a gradual decline in the prospects for enlightenment. In any event, I think you'll find that even if you quote the textual references that do exist (regarding the length and strength of the sasana), those who hold to the idea of enlightenment being available for the trying within this lifetime will not be persuaded. >Of course it doesn't help when we >read suttas without sufficient understanding of the momentary, >utterly conditioned nature of paramattha dhammas. Developing >understanding of Abhidhamma provides us with protection against >wanting too much too soon because we better understand anatta and >gradually come to understand that wanting cittas to be this way or >that way can only lead to more delusion. > > Yes, and realising how little direct understanding there is of the seeing and visible object that is arising at this very moment is sufficient to indicate how long-term the task ahead of us is ;-)) Hoping you had a smooth trip (after the 3-hour delay). Jon 55892 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok gazita2002 Hello Jon and Scott, thanx for stepping in with the earlier post Jon, as I think it was a bit 'over my head' and now I have learnt something as well as Scott. it sounds a little academic for me, however I realise that this can be happening right now as I concentrate on writiing this post :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Scott > > Scott Duncan wrote: > >>"I guess I am wondering how an intention to concentrate can become > >>concentration; how and whether one can "control" a sustained emotional > >>state - jhaana serving as an example. .............. > >In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha I was studying up and may have answered > >my own question at least to some extent, but just to get some guidance: > > > >Cetasika ekaggataa is defined to be "[the] mental state [which] > >prevents its adjuncts from dissipation and fixes them on one object . > >. . 'It is the germ of all attentive, selected, focussed, or > >concentrated consciousness,'" (pp. 108-109). > > > >When ekaggataa arises with citta it performs the function described. > >Do you think this is part of what I am wondering about? > > > > > > I think I have a different translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. > Mine is 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (CMA) by Bhikkhu Bodhi > (based on the Ven Narada translation). Do you have a section reference > for the passage you've quoted? I'd like to check it in my translation. > > I am looking at Ch VII 'Compendium of Categories' (Samuccaya- sangaha), > para 16, which gives 7 mental factors that 'enable the mind to closely > contemplate its object'. The interesting thing is that all but 1 are > Universals (i.e., can arise with any kind of consciousness, including > kusala or aksuala), and that remaining 1 is an akusala cetasika. > > The 7 factors are: > (1) initial application (vitakka), > (2) sustained application (vicaara), > (3) zest (piiti); > (4) one-pointedness (ekaggata); > (5) joy (somanassa); > (6) displeasure (domanassa); > (7) equanimity (upekkha). > > Domanassa is the one (purely) akusala mental factor > > The editors explanatory note (compiled from the commentarial literature) > says: > "The word 'jhaana' is not used here in the sense of meditative > absorption, but in the broader sense of close contemplation > (upanijjhaayana) of an object. Therefore the states listed here are > considered jhaana factors even when they occur outside a meditative > framework. These seven cetasikas are called jhaana factors because they > enable the mind to closely contemplate its object. Of them, displeasure > is exclusively unwholesome and occurs only in the two cittas connected > with aversion. The other six can be wholesome, unwholesome, or > indeterminate, depending on the citta in which they occur." > > So the mental factor of ekaggattaa is only part of the story. To my > understanding, its main function is to fix the citta on its object in > the momentary sense, i.e., each citta is fixed on one object and that > object only. > > Jon > 55893 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:36pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 378- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] The classification of akusala dhammas by way of latent tendencies reminds us of their stubbornness, their pertinaciousness. The latent tendencies are like microbes investing the body. They are latent but they may become active at any moment, when conditions are favourable(1). Latent tendencies are hard to get rid of. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XXII, 60) about the stubbornness of the latent tendencies: *** "... For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." * The latent tendencies are “inveterate”, that is, they are firmly established, for a long time, obstinate, hard to eradicate. One may wonder why not all akusala dhammas have been classified as latent tendencies. Have we not accumulated all akusala dhammas from life to life? We should note that the seven akusala dhammas which have been classified as latent tendencies are particularly obstinate and condition the arising of the other defilements. So long as latent tendencies have not been eradicated, defilements arise again and again. For example, when someone is reborn in one of the brahma-planes, there are no conditions for aversion in that plane. However, so long as the latent tendency of aversion has not been eradicated, aversion is bound to arise again when that person is reborn in one of the sensuous planes, after his lifespan in the brahma-plane has been terminated. Latent tendencies are eradicated at different stages of enlightenment (2). The magga-citta of the sotåpanna eradicates the latent tendency of wrong view and of doubt and thus these akusala dhammas can never arise again. The magga-citta of the sakadågåmí does not completely eradicate any of the other latent tendencies, but, it “severs the gross latent bias of sense-desires and the gross latent bias of aversion”, as the Atthasåliní(3) states. *** 1) Ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies V, The Problem of Time, 3, the Concept of the Present in the Abhidhamma. BPS. Kandy, 1976. 2) Atthasåliní II, Book I, Part VIII, Chapter I, 235-236. 3) Ibidem. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 55894 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts and other irrealities (3) sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Thanks for your optimistic message. > I already had - of course - in UP but not found a discussion on this > essay of Karunadasa. > There was a discussion about another: Time and space. > So what was the pleasant surprise? I had not the intention to be > original but have not seen this kind of discussions I started know, > but please show me. .... S: I meant that some extracts from Karunadasa's article on concepts and realities can be found in U.P. under 'Concepts and Realities' as I recall. (All, pls note: there is a temporary problem with the links in U.P. at the moment which we're trying to fix). .... > I have read in Sujin's "Survey" the chapters on "Concepts", a > question about a quote in it. > On page 250 Sujin says: "We should know precisely what is absolute > truth and what os conventional truth"; I agree totally with that; but > the next one: "Conventional truth is not real in the absolute sense" > is difficult. ..... S: For example, is conventionally true that we're typing on computers and that you're in Holland and I'm in Hong Kong. But in an absolute sense, there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away - no tying, no computers, no Joop or Sarah, no Holland or Hong Kong. ..... >It seems easy to agree but then one should also agree > with the mirror of it: "Absolute truth is not real in the > conventional sense" > Is this latter one a correct statement? .... S: I think it often is. For example, when we say all realities are anatta or without self or soul, this would not be generally accepted as being true for most people, especially those who have their own religions. .... > > Metta (and a good time in Bangkok) ... S: Thx for your good wishes. We had a super trip, especially as my mother, Kate, joined us and really enjoyed it all too. She enjoyed meeting our friends, the 'tastes' of discussions, the Thai hospitality, our beach trip away and our quiet times together as well. Did you say you were at a Portuguese internet or was that another dream of mine? Metta, Sarah ======== 55895 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Further Troubles sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: >> I'm sure we can all learn from your example. > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Maybe yes, maybe no. ;-) > I've found that the best that one can do for those who are > grieving is > just to be there for them, with love, and to make it clear through your > actions and demeaner that you do genuinely care. In two of the three > recent > funerals, we were very close to the deceased and their relatives, and it > was very > personal for us. ("Personal" isn't always bad. ;-) > Sometimes I say something that I think will be a help and be > skillful, > but that just has to arise without planning or pontification. For the > most > part, I find that it is good to leave all theories and dogma at the > doorstep! > When you are really motivated by love and compassion for the bereaved > and the > deceased, saying and doing the right thing becomes easy, I find. .... S: this was a very nice note and I know your friend will appreciate your company and support at this time. I agree with your comments about being 'motivated by love and compassion' leading to the ease of saying and doing the right thing. I think this is the difference between really being concerned and caring for others as opposed to thinking of ourselves at such times. I wish your friend well. I was chatting on our last morning to a Thai friend with cancer that has spread and is now making her lung capacity more and more restricted. But I was so impressed at how upbeat she was, writing dhamma articles and reflecting wisely at such times. In the end, the understanding of the Truths and of present arising dhammas is our only refuge, I think. Metta, Sarah ================================ 55896 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Further Troubles upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/20/06 11:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > I wish your friend well. I was chatting on our last morning to a Thai > friend with cancer that has spread and is now making her lung capacity > more and more restricted. But I was so impressed at how upbeat she was, > writing dhamma articles and reflecting wisely at such times. > -------------------------------------- Howard: And I wish your courageous friend well also. I hope things go as easily as possible for her. -------------------------------------- In the end,> > the understanding of the Truths and of present arising dhammas is our only > refuge, I think. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55897 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 648 ) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo & all, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa'. > > Here sa.laayatana or 6-sense-bases are clear that they are > > 1. eye-sense-base > 2. ear-sense-base > 3. nose-sense-base > 4. tongue-sense-base > 5. body-sense-base > 6. mind-sense-base .... S: I'm not so sure it is so simple or clear as you suggest. I understand salaayatanaa to refer to the 6 pairs of ayatanas, the inner and outer ayatanas. I think 'sense bases' is misleading as a translation. the ayatanas are the 'meetings' of various dhammas. For example, there cannot be the meeting of eye-sense ayatana and the visible object ayatana without what you refer to as the mind-sense ayatana and also the dhammaayatanaa, often (misleadingly) translated as the mind object ayatana. There are always cetasikas arising with the citta (mind-sense ayatana) and these are dhammaayatanaa. So, at the moment of seeing consciousness, there are 4 ayatanas meeting together. Without patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) and subsequent vipaka cittas, all accompanied by cetasikas (the naama in naama-ruupa above) and rupas also conditioned by kamma (the ruupa above), there would be no conditions for the ayatanas to subsequently arise and meet together. ..... > > The first five aayatanas are ruupa dhamma. They are material > phenomena and they do not know anything. But they are conditions for > arising of respective panca-vinnaanas or 5-sense-consciousness. All > first 5 are ruupa. The last aayatana is obviously naama dhamma. It > has the quality of knowing, the quality of awareness. .... S: As I say, I don't think you can refer to just the inner aayatanas. Ayatana refers to the 'meeting' of the various dhammas, like the balancing on a needle-tip. The subtle rupas included in dhammaayatana also arise in the kalapas with the sense objects conditioning each other and also the consciousness arising. .... > > So all these 6-sense-bases are naama-ruupa or ruupa-naama. So naama- > ruupa paccayaa sa.laayatana is here naama-ruupa paccayaa naama-ruupa. > But there is difference in conditionality when the dhamma is said to > be naama-ruupam and said to be sa.laayatanaa. ..... S: Perhaps you could clarify what you mean here:-/ Metta, Sarah ======== 55898 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 647 ) sarahprocter... Hi Scott (& Htoo), While I'm butting in with controversial comments, let me add one here as well if I may: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > "'Naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa'. > Mentality-materiality as a supporting condition 6-sense-bases have > to arise. 6-sense-bases are conditioned by mentality-materiality. > Mentality and materiality give conditions for 6-sense-bases. > > What are 6-sense-bases? > > They are cakkaayatana or eye-sense-base, sotaayatana or ear-sense- > base, ghaanayatana or nose-sense-base, jivhaayatana or tongue-sense- > base, kaayaayatana or body-sense-base, and manaayatana or mind-sense- > base. > > Here these 6 sense-bases need to be understood." > > Dear Htoo Naing, > > Some blindingly basic questions: > > When it is said "supporting condition" is this "nissaya-paccaya?" By > support I understand that naama-ruupa serves as a substrate for the > six sense bases. Are these bases ruupa? How are they naama? Are > they differentiations of naama-ruupa? How might I understand the > statement "eye-base is produced by kamma" in this light? .... S: If instead we take naama here to refer to vipaka cetasikas arising with the patisandhi citta (and with later vipaka cittas), ruupa here to refer to rupas conditioned by kamma only and the ayatanas to refer to all the ayatanas (i.e the coming together of all dhammas). So eye-base, as you say, is kammically produced rupa. It is a condition for seeing consciousness (when the inner and outer ayatanas meet) by way of pre-nascence, 0bject, dissociation, presence and non-disappearance conditions I believe. Some objects can also condition by way of object predominance and object decisive support conditions. In other words, the conditions are very complicated and don't need to be known:-). At that moment of 'coming together', as I mentioned in my last post, there is not only the inner ayatana of eye-sense, but also the outer ayatana of visible object, the inner ayatana of seeing consciousness (followed by other kinds of consciousness) and the outer ayatanas of various cetasikas arising with the consciousness and also other rupas arising with and conditioning the visible object. I expect I've confused everyone a lot, lot more. I'll look f/w to Htoo's and your further feedback. Good to read all your posts and keen questions, Scott. I think you would appreciate the edited audio discussions with K.Sujin. There are a couple of short extracts on the DSG home-page and some full edited series on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Try starting with the most recent and most finely edited one from Bangkok, July 2001. Please let me know if you (or anyone else here) would like cds in mp3 format sent instead, especially if you don't have broadband. (For these requests, best to send them off-list to me with your full postal adds). Metta, Sarah =========== 55899 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 646 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > There are 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness. They are > not vinnaanas of Dependent Origination. But they have cetanaa > cetasika > when they arise and this cetanaa is main culprit of all actions or > formations or sankhaara. So they are 'sankhaara of D.O' rather > than 'vinnaanas of D.O'. .... S: OK, yes, sankhara of D.O. when them are abhisankhara or kamma-patha cetanaa. .... > > But one needs to be careful that implication is not the same as > cetana > is cetasika and 12 akusala cittas are cittas, which are also known > as > vinnaanas. If just one citta is considered in these 12 akusala > cittas > it is not linear but it is conditional. .... S: Confused:-/ As you're stressing, in DO vinnaana does not refer to akusala cittas, so let's stick to the DO use of the terms here.... Vinnaana refers here only to patisandhi citta and subsequent vipaka cittas, agreed? .... > > Example a lobha citta arises. > > It is because of avijja. In that citta moha already exists. Because > of avijjaa there have to arise sankhaara (cetanaa). Cetana also > arises > at the very same time. Because of sankhaara (cetanaa) there has to > arise vinnaana (akusala citta or lobha citta). .... S: No, because of sankhaara (here referring to kamma capable of bringing results), there arise vinnaana (here referring to patisandhi (rebirth consciousness) specifically and other vipaka cittas. .... > > Here just a moment already include 1.avijjaa, 2.sankhaara, > 3.vinnaana. .... S: No, kamma (sankhaara here) cannot arise at the same moment as vipaka (vinnaana here). ... > > When this lobha citta arises there also arise cittaja ruupa and > cetasikas along with lobha citta. So naama-ruupa also arise at the > very same moment. > > So the example is 'arising of a single moment of lobha citta'. > > At that time there are_ > > 1.avijjaa, 2.sankhaara, 3. vinnaana, 4. naama-ruupa. > > But 'naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa' does not apply in this case. > Because lobha citta does not condition '6-sense-base' to arise. I do > not believe moment to moment paticcasamuppaada. > > Any thought? ... S: Rather confused:-/ The sankhaara refers to past kamma in previous lives which conditions the patisandhi and other vipaka cittas in this lifetime, accompanied by cetasikas and kamma produced rupas. I'll leave all your other DO threads til we come to some agreement on these. Thanks for bravely giving this series and for all your posts in our absence. Metta, Sarah ======== 55900 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning of dhamma in sabbe dhamma anatta sarahprocter... Hi Charles G (Cherry), --- Charles wrote: > These are my points > > I am investigating on these thing/views > 1. sabbe dhamma anatta > 2. nibbana is asankhata dhamma, > therefore it is included in the word dhamma > 3. from (1) and (2) then nibbana is anatta > 4. paramattha dhammas are anatta because they are void of essence .... S: OK, but I'm still not clear what you mean by 'essence'. Do you mean sabhava (characteristic) or atta (self)? .... <...> > I do not want to say that other people's view are wrong, so maybe I > am not being on the point. In this case, stated explicitly I think > that nibbana is not anatta (and that does not mean that it is atta > either). ..... S: What do you understand by anatta? Doesn't it mean that there is no self or substantial thing in nibbana? It's an element(dhatu) too, even though (like other paramattha dhammas) it has sabhava. .... > > If people are just saying, nibbana is anatta or nibbana is not anatta > without putting the reasons why they think so, then it is like two > children saying, this is mine, no this is mine :D. .... S: So I'd like to understand your reasons for saying nibbana is not anatta and to understand more clearly what you mean by anatta. What is the reason why any dhamma could not be anatta? ... > Now on the statement that hardness is empty of its own essence. ... S: Again, I'm not sure here what you mean by essence. Hardness has a characteristic. When you touch it, that characteristic is experienced. .... > > Hardness is a concept given to the ultimate reality of the element of > hardness. Now because the ultimate reality of hardness exist, then > the ultimate reality of the element of hardness is the essence of the > hardness concept. .... S: Let's just talk about the reality of hardness. It has a characteristic, do you agree? ... > > Compare it with the atta-ditthi > > Being is a concept given to the pancakkhandha. Not because there is > no pancakkhandha other than the formation of the ultimate reality of > forms, cittas, and cetasikas, then beings is really without essence > (atta) -> in other words, a concept without reality, fake, like the > concept of a mosquito wearing hat, OK, how many of you would think > that a mosquito without hat is :D?. Therefore the pancakkhandha are > not the atta (anatta) of beings. Therefore the view that "Sarah is" > for example :D is eliminated. But it is perfectly right to think that > "hardness is", because hardness is a concept for the ultimate reality > of hardness and it does exist. .... S: I'm not sure I follow you. Pls spell it out if I'm still missing your point - sometimes I'm rather slow :D btw, I like your humour a lot, so keep it up. Good to have you around. Metta, Sarah ======= 55901 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept and realities sarahprocter... Hi Charles G, --- Charles wrote: > Hi, > > I am not clear on the meaning of atta. Please correct the examples > below about what is the atta of what (in conventional truth) if the > example is wrong. > > - the atta of a being is the 5 khandhas > - the atta of a tree is wood and leaves > - the atta of a house is the woods, bricks, etc > - the atta of a computer is the monitor, CPU, keyboard, mouse > - the atta of a hardness is the ultimate reality of the element of > hardness .... S: The atta ditthi always refers to the wrong idea of there being a self or substantial thing. It is a wrong conceptual idea. It includes all sakkaya ditthi or wrong ideas of self, but also refers to the idea that a tree, house or computer actually exists. I don't understand your last example. If there is any understanding of the ultimate reality of the element of hardness right now (whether conceptual or directly), there is no atta view at that moment. Metta, Sarah ========= 55903 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept and realities sarahprocter... Hi Ken O (& Charles G), I've been reading all your messages and I think they're full of excellent points, like the following ones: --- Ken O wrote: > k: Because the wise man does not know that the sand is also fake, so > wise man is not Buddha. Hardnes and visible object of the sand are > real but not sand as sand is a concept. Anatta is a characteristics > of paramatha dhamma. We must not imply that just being anatta is > nilistic view. If I used your logic as in your previous mail, panna > should also be nilistic as it is also not self, then what is the > point of developing panna in the first place := ). We are saying > emptines meant empty of a self and not empty of a existence. All > paramatha dhamma exist, just like feelings are universal to all > beings but TV which is a concept is not universal. Concepts is a > development of logic thinking or a collection of preceptions but it > is not a reality, it is a dream or a mirage. ..... S: Many thanks for all your comments (and good humour too :=). Pls continue talking to Charles - I think you follow his logic or ideas very well.....maybe it's those great minds thinking alike.... Metta, Sarah ========= 55904 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:09pm Subject: Mighty is Morality ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Morality is the Second Mental Perfection: Avoiding all Harm; Doing only Good; Purifying the Mind; This is the Dhamma of all the Buddhas! Dhammapada 183 Morality is the foundation, the initiator & the origin of all that is advantageous, good & beautiful... One Must therefore purify morality. Theragatha 612 Clean cultivated morality brings all success! Theragatha 608 Morality is a mighty Power! Morality is a forceful Weapon! Morality is a supreme Jewel! Morality is a marvellous Protection! Theragatha 614 Harmless towards all living beings, Speaking only kind & wise truths, Taking nothing not given, Enjoying only one's own partner, Never abusing drinks or drugs. Having given up & left all behind These five harmful actions, such One truly possess right moral... AN III 205-6 What, Venerable Sir, is the rewarding advantage of morality? Freedom from regret, Ananda. And what is the advantage of freedom from regret? Joy that produces bliss, Ananda. Bliss then generates happiness. Happiness enables concentration. Concentration facilitates vision and knowledge. Vision and knowledge brings dispassion & detachment Dispassion & detachment induces direct knowledge of Certain & Complete Mental Release, Ananda. AN X.1 Intention always comes first. Intention is of all states the primer. By intention are all things initiated. By construction of mind are all phenomena formed. So - if with good intention one thinks, speaks or acts: Joy surely follows one like the never-leaving shadow However !!! - if with evil intention one thinks, speaks or acts: Pain certainly follows one, like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1+2 Both the moral & immoral doings; Both the good & the Bad actions; That human beings do here; These are truly their own possession. These, they take along with them, when they go, These are what follows them, like the shadow, that never ever leaves... So do only what is admirable & advantageous, as an accumulating investment for the future life. Good prior doings are the only support & help for any being, when they rearise in the next world. SN III 4 Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good, reaps only joy and satisfaction ... So both here and there, the wise with merit well done & stored, enjoys the purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong, reaps only pain and regret ... So both here and there, the fool with wrong view & bad behavior, suffers agony as the inevitable effect of prior evil action. Dhammapada 16 As the yak-ox watch her tail even onto death, without breaking through, when caught in thorns, guard your doings as your own life, by avoiding all overstepping of this fine line limiting right from wrong. The Basket of Behaviour, Cariyapitaka The Bodhisatta once as the Naga serpent King Sankhapala guarded his precepts of moral habit, even when tortured: 'Though pierced with sharp bamboo stakes and hacked with hunting knives. I raged no anger against these hunters, as this was my final perfection of Morality!' Sankhapala Jataka no. 524 The 5 precious precepts (pañca-sila): I accept the training rule to avoid killing breathing beings. I accept the training rule not to take anything, that is not given. I accept the training rule to abstain from any sexual misconduct. I accept the training rule to desist from all incorrect speech. I accept the training rule to shun drinks & drugs causing carelessness. These are timeless laws of only Good, which all the mighty Seers of the past have fully followed & made their Way! This Virtue of Morality is like Rock. A Solid Foundation for all Good States! Immorality creates regret, and thus destroys Joy... Purity creates calm, and thus the subtle concentration, which is necessary for gaining all higher understanding! Only higher Understanding sets completely Free... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 55905 From: "Charles" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning of dhamma in sabbe dhamma anatta cherry_avium Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott < sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: > S: What do you understand by anatta? Doesn't it mean that there is no self > or substantial thing in nibbana? It's an element(dhatu) too, even though > (like other paramattha dhammas) it has sabhava. Seeing things as they are. Anything that is not seen as they are is said to be anatta. Any talk that is related to atta only exist when things are not seen as they are. If we only talk about things as they are (paramattha dhamma) how can there be atta; without even the word atta, how can there be anatta. > What is the reason why any dhamma could not be anatta? How can we use our knowledge and wisdom (not view) to see that everthing is anatta? Or more basic question, how can we use our knowledge and wisdom (not view) to recognize things that should be viewed as anatta? Atta is the product of wrong view. Therefore only things that are produced by wrong view are anatta. In a pure state free from any defilements, there should be neither atta nor anatta. Things are just as they are. Knowledge and wisdom is like a clean glass. There can be no pencil tracks on the glass surface, why would anyone think about a paper eraser for glass. And people equalize formations with paramattha dhammas, for example, saying the body is the rupa paramattha. If body is taken as rupa paramattha, it is right view, should right view be eliminated? Instead, when body is taken falsely as body, it is wrong view, and wrong view is to be eliminated. If you bring paramattha dhamma, atta, and anatta on one place, you are bringing together incompatible things, water, scissor, and knife. Scissor and knife is not for cutting water. > S: Let's just talk about the reality of hardness. It has a characteristic, > do you agree? I agree. When the characteristic is experienced and known, it is known by what it really is. But when the hardness is experienced, but now known, instead it is taken as pleasant or not pleasant, beautiful or ugly, there come wrong view. The process happens in the mind, not in the hardness itself. If anything is to be done for eliminating atta-ditthi, it should be done in the mind-process, nothing can be said about hardness itself. And what exist in the mind process? The concept of people, of food, of building, etc. Because they only exist in the mind, not in reality, these things are said to be anatta. 55906 From: "Charles" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:35am Subject: Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott < sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: If there is any understanding of the ultimate reality of the > element of hardness right now (whether conceptual or directly), there is > no atta view at that moment. Exactly :-) Then how can we define atta or anatta at the moment? If hardness is not seen as it is, it become people, building, food, etc. And then comes wrong view. If hardness is seen as it is, it is just hardness. 55907 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 812 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Dear Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Jon wrote: >I am not familiar with the term 'vipassana kammatthaana', nor have I >seen it said that the samatha kammatthaana 'can also be used as >vipassana kammatthaana'. Perhaps you could give us a reference to >where this is found in the texts. -------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > >Dear Jon, maybe this is matter of word usage. You understand more >than me I think. > >In kamma.t.thaana portion it is written > >1. samatha kamma.t.thaana >2. vipassanaa kamma.t.thaana --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon wrote: Are you quoting here from the Abhidhammattah Sangaha? If so, that answers a question I raised in another post, about the use of the term 'vipassana kammatthaana'. I think I was wrong. Thanks for the clarification. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you understand as I understand and vice versa. It may be the usage. As I told you another post I got the word from a book. Samatha kammatthana is 'the zone or area or site or sphere or realm where samatha-kamma works'. Vipassanaa kammatthana is 'the zone where vipassanaa-kamma works'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >Samatha kammatthana is 'the object where samatha-bhavanaa-kamma- >cittas occupy. > >Vipassanaa kammatthana is 'the object where vipassanaa-bhaavanaa- >kamma-cittas occupy. > >The 2nd has to be naama or ruupa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon wrote: Yes, this is how I understand it; the object of vipassana has to be naama or rupa. Is this also from the AS? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is inference. Where it says there are two yaanika they are samatha-yaanika and vipassanaa-yaanika. Samatha-yaanika have to arise from their samatha to attend 'vipassana-kammatthana'. If I have time I may quote the Paa.li from AS. Sarah knows my hard time. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >I said all 40 can be based. But I did not say these 40 are direct >object of vipassanaa-bhavanaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: To my understanding, when jhana forms the basis for insight, it is the jhana citta or its accompanying cetasikas, and not the kammatthaana, that is the object of the insight insight consciousness. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly. The commentary to Satipatthaana Sutta say the same. Again this is the matter of word usage. When we say '40 samatthas' some people if not all will think that they are just 40 dhamma. But abhidhammists know there are objects, cittas, and cetasikas where object is pannatti in some samatha-objects. Example; kaayagataasati can be the base of vipassana even though its object is pannatti. Kaayagataasati is requisite samatha for some beings as it destroys the craving on self and other's selves as beautiful. As soon as calmness arise a new citta may arise and contemplate on the cittas of kaayagatasati and this put on the path of vipassanaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jon: > >In my experience, all the standard texts >treat samatha kammatthaana quited separately from vipassana bhavanaa. >This is particularly so in both the Visuddhimagga and the >Abhidhammattha Sangaha, I believe. >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Htoo: Please see above. It might be word matter. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jon: I think what you have said above clarifies it. Thanks. >>There are 40 samatha-kammatthanas or '40 objects of meditation'. >> >> > >I thought you said the 'meditation' would be used as a translation of >the term 'bhavanaa'. Here you seem to be using it as a translation >of 'samatha'. Which is it to be? ;-)) > >Jon >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > >I have not checked the word 'meditation'. It might well be fit or >not. > >Oxford Dictionary says; > >meditate (v) = exercise the mind in religious contemplation > >... > >The mind is being exercised to take the object nama or ruupa and >to see the characters on them = vipasanaa-bhaavanaa. > >The mind is exercised to take the samatha object and to see the >samatha sign (pannatti) = samatha-bhaavanaa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: I thinnk the definition of 'meditate' as 'exercise the mind in religious contemplation' is a good one. To my understanding, however, bhavanaa is about the growth of (existing) wisdom and is not about mental exercise. >Both have pannaa. But different. > > Agreed. But panna does not arise because of the undertaking of any kind of mental exercise. Jon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are referring to vipassanaa-panna, I know. But panna always arise with all ruupa-cittas that is rupa-kusala, rupa-vipaka, rupa- kiriya and panna arise with all aruupa-cittas that is aruupa-kusala, arupa-vipaka, arupa-kiriya, and panna always arise with lokuttaraa cittas. As I frequently say there were people who had jhaana. Examples; Deviimala, Alaara, Udaka. But they did not know any hint of anatta. If there is no panna in them then this would say ruupa- jhaana and aruupa-jhaana are without panna. But this is not. But they did lack vipassana-panna of anatta, dukkha, anicca, asubha. With respect, Htoo Naing 55908 From: "Charles" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Sarah, The body is anatta. The first is product of wrong view The latter is said to eliminate the wrong view. The result is the elimination of wrong view. Paramattha dhamma is anatta The first is product of knowledge The latter is said to eliminate the wrong view This is like sweeping a clean window No, I do not wrote a clean floor, as dust can fall on the clean floor and make it dirty. I'm saying a clean window where no dust can fall on it, thus not only sweeping dust is useless, it does not even make any sense. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott < sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: > > Hi Ken O (& Charles G), > > I've been reading all your messages and I think they're full of excellent > points, like the following ones: > > --- Ken O wrote: > > k: Because the wise man does not know that the sand is also fake, so > > wise man is not Buddha. Hardnes and visible object of the sand are > > real but not sand as sand is a concept. Anatta is a characteristics > > of paramatha dhamma. We must not imply that just being anatta is > > nilistic view. If I used your logic as in your previous mail, panna > > should also be nilistic as it is also not self, then what is the > > point of developing panna in the first place := ). We are saying > > emptines meant empty of a self and not empty of a existence. All > > paramatha dhamma exist, just like feelings are universal to all > > beings but TV which is a concept is not universal. Concepts is a > > development of logic thinking or a collection of preceptions but it > > is not a reality, it is a dream or a mirage. > ..... 55909 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 648 ) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Thanks for your discussion on Dependent Origination. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Htoo & all, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa'. > > Here sa.laayatana or 6-sense-bases are clear that they are > > 1. eye-sense-base > 2. ear-sense-base > 3. nose-sense-base > 4. tongue-sense-base > 5. body-sense-base > 6. mind-sense-base .... S: I'm not so sure it is so simple or clear as you suggest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was not discussing on aayatana dhamma. I was discussing on D.O. As you say there cannot arise phassa only with internal ayatana. vinnaana --> nama-rupa --> sa.laayatana --> phassa When you consider phassa yes there are three things coming together. Actually there are four things including phassa. They are 1. citta 2. object 3. internal-sense-base (like eye) 4. phassa (and other cetasikas) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I understand salaayatanaa to refer to the 6 pairs of ayatanas, the inner and outer ayatanas. I think 'sense bases' is misleading as a translation. the ayatanas are the 'meetings' of various dhammas. For example, there cannot be the meeting of eye-sense ayatana and the visible object ayatana without what you refer to as the mind-sense ayatana and also the dhammaayatanaa, often (misleadingly) translated as the mind object ayatana. There are always cetasikas arising with the citta (mind- sense ayatana) and these are dhammaayatanaa. So, at the moment of seeing consciousness, there are 4 ayatanas meeting together. Without patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) and subsequent vipaka cittas, all accompanied by cetasikas (the naama in naama-ruupa above) and rupas also conditioned by kamma (the ruupa above), there would be no conditions for the ayatanas to subsequently arise and meet together. ..... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I use essential Paa.li words for some basic dhamma like ayatana, dhaatu, sacca, khandha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The first five aayatanas are ruupa dhamma. They are material > phenomena and they do not know anything. But they are conditions for > arising of respective panca-vinnaanas or 5-sense-consciousness. All > first 5 are ruupa. The last aayatana is obviously naama dhamma. It > has the quality of knowing, the quality of awareness. .... S: As I say, I don't think you can refer to just the inner aayatanas. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) Been explained. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ayatana refers to the 'meeting' of the various dhammas, like the balancing on a needle-tip. The subtle rupas included in dhammaayatana also arise in the kalapas with the sense objects conditioning each other and also the consciousness arising. .... > > So all these 6-sense-bases are naama-ruupa or ruupa-naama. So naama- > ruupa paccayaa sa.laayatana is here naama-ruupa paccayaa naama- ruupa. > But there is difference in conditionality when the dhamma is said to > be naama-ruupam and said to be sa.laayatanaa. ..... S: Perhaps you could clarify what you mean here:-/ Metta, Sarah ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is Bodhisatta's D.O contemplation. It is the inner cycle. Nama- rupa paccaya nama-ruupa and nama-ruupa paccaya naama ruupa. As you say sa.laayatana are 12. They are 6 pairs. These 12 aayatanas are naama-ruupa. So nama-rupa paccaya nama-ruupa. With respect, Htoo Naing 55910 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:00am Subject: Re: Concepts and other irrealities (3) And dreams jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, > .... Hallo Sarah Fine that you and "the yours" had a good trip in Thailand. I don't know when Nina is back in Holland because I will ask her and Lodewijk off-list about a invitation my buddhist organisation got from the Indonesian Embassy who organizes a meeting next week with representatives of dutch religious organizations about 'interfaith" (yes, the cartoons of course) About dreams: You know the taoist statement of the Twang Tse: I dreamt I was a butterfly and then there was awakening; know I don't know if I'm a butterfly dreaming that I'm Twang Tse or that I'm Twang Tse dreaming that I was a butterfly. (Yes I was in Portugal two weeks, for getting some sun) And then abou the "two truths" You wrote: S: "For example, is conventionally true that we're typing on computers and that you're in Holland and I'm in Hong Kong. But in an absolute sense, there are only namas and rupas arising and falling away - no tying, no computers, no Joop or Sarah, no Holland or Hong Kong." J: I prefer an example in which the "I" don't plays a role, so this time not about anatta (perhaps tomorrow again about anatta). So my example: "the sun exists, even when I don't exist". This ia a conventional truth, but is it not real in the absolute sense? It is not relevant (it is one one the kind of things about which the Buddha was silent), but is it not real? Is it not true in the absolute sense? In conventional logic something is false when (and if) it is not true. Does the same logic exist according ultimate truth? Metta Joop 55911 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some questions on meditation practice jonoabb Hi Howard and Pablo upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Pablo) - > > >>Undertaking a form of 'practice' in order to 'see' dhammas is similarly >>not the development of wisdom/understanding. >> >Howard: > As I see it, carrying out all the practices advised by the Buddha >cultivates the mind. If we don't act now, then lifetimes from now we will still be >unable to get anywhere. This very lifetime will, lifetimes from now, become >one of the many "previous lifetimes" during which kusala conditions could have >been created, i.e., seeds which could have yielded good fruit might have been >sown. > > We all agree that development occurring within this lifetime will accrue to future lifetimes. The question is however how that development occurs. Did the Buddha teach the carrying out of practices as a means of cultivating the mind, or did he identify the factors necessary for the arising of all kinds of kusala including panna, and urge us to keep that in mind at all times? >>The main such conditions, apart from having accumulated it in >>previous lifetimes, are hearing the dhamma (teachings) in this lifetime, >>understanding what has been heard, and reflecting appropriately on what >>has been heard and understood. >> >Howard: > The Buddha taught his followers to do many, many things. > Yes, we agree that coming to an understanding of what the Buddha taught is the key. On my reading of the suttas, however, the Buddha is explaining the necessary conditions for the development of the path, and encouraging his followers to keep his teachings in mind at all times. Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana that occurs is the development if the path. Satipatthana is the awareness and understanding of a characteristic of a presently arising dhamma. Being conditioned dhammas, awareness and understanding will arise at moments not of our choosing, just like the pleasant and unpleasant feelings that occur throughout the day. The necessary conditions for that arising are the correct intellectual understanding of the teachings, and a sense of urgency as regards the development of the path. It is not a matter of 'doing' anything. >Listening to, >contemplating, and discussing his teachings were certainly fundamental. But >they were *far* from all. And past "accumulations" are the consequences of past >actions. Nothing comes from nothing, and reading the menu will not fill our >stomach. We need to read the menu, for sure, else we'll choose the wrong foods, >but if we stop with the reading, we'll soon properly despair of a good meal >at the Dhamma Restaurant. > Yes, we agree that mere intellectual understanding (simply reading the menu) is not the direct understanding of dhammas. But that still leaves the question as to what that direct understanding is and how it arises; and whether any, and if so what, kind of 'doing' is necessary. As regards past accumulations, I would say these are the consequence of past arisings (not, past doings). They are all mental factors. You mention the factors of listening to, contemplating and discussing the teachings. It is true they are not all there is to the development of the path, but they are certainly an indispensable part of it, not just at the beginning but forever. >>The understanding of dhammas can develop only gradually and in stages. >>The first stage is the right theoretical knowledge, for example, >>theoretical understanding of what dhammas are, of what awareness is, and >>of what the characteristic of moments of consciousness with awareness is >>(so that those moments can be recognised if and when they arise). >> >> >Howard: > Yes, the first stage. But not first, last, and always. There is more. >And if all else is held off on until the 1st stage becomes "perfect" or >"complete", we shall never do all that needs to be done. > > Yes, we all agree that mere theoretical knowledge of the teachings is not the development of the path; there must be something more than that. But as I see it the 'more' is the realisation that what is said in the teachings applies to the dhammas of the present moment now, as we read or write this message (or whatever we next do), that it is the presently arising dhammas that are to be seen as they truly are, not those arising at another time and place (the time of a 'practice'); and it is the confidence that if the teachings have been properly understood in this regard then awareness of dhammas will arise at an appropriate time, but not a time of our choosing or targeting. Confidence and patience are both needed. No expectations of immediate results or progress. >>Now although this sounds simple, it is far from being so. It is a >>long-term project, but the sooner we begin (in this lifetime) the >>better. Of course, we can assume that we have a certain level of >>understanding (from previous lifetimes) already, that can be built upon, >>so we need not be unduly discouraged ;-)). >> >Howard: > There will not be adequate understanding based on study alone. The >Buddha *never* taught that there will. > > Yes, we all agree that study alone will not lead to understanding. But in my view, the development of the path is not to be thought of in terms of 'study' or 'practice', either alone or in combination, since both terms suggest following a specified programme, activity or technique of some kind. One has to hear the teachings properly explained, understand about dhammas and the development of satipatthana, reflect on and carefully consider what has been heard and understood as it relates to the present moment; and all of that has to happen repeatedly and over a long period of time. It's a lot more difficult and subtle than any kind of study or practice, but with patience and confidence it's entirely possible. Jon 55912 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:13am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 647 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Scott (& Htoo), While I'm butting in with controversial comments, let me add one here as well if I may: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > "'Naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa'. > Mentality-materiality as a supporting condition 6-sense-bases have > to arise. 6-sense-bases are conditioned by mentality-materiality. > Mentality and materiality give conditions for 6-sense-bases. > > What are 6-sense-bases? > > They are cakkaayatana or eye-sense-base, sotaayatana or ear-sense- > base, ghaanayatana or nose-sense-base, jivhaayatana or tongue- sense- > base, kaayaayatana or body-sense-base, and manaayatana or mind- sense- > base. > > Here these 6 sense-bases need to be understood." > > Dear Htoo Naing, > > Some blindingly basic questions: > > When it is said "supporting condition" is this "nissaya-paccaya?" By > support I understand that naama-ruupa serves as a substrate for the > six sense bases. Are these bases ruupa? How are they naama? Are > they differentiations of naama-ruupa? How might I understand the > statement "eye-base is produced by kamma" in this light? -------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: If instead we take naama here to refer to vipaka cetasikas arising with the patisandhi citta (and with later vipaka cittas), ruupa here to refer to rupas conditioned by kamma only and the ayatanas to refer to all the ayatanas (i.e the coming together of all dhammas). So eye-base, as you say, is kammically produced rupa. It is a condition for seeing consciousness (when the inner and outer ayatanas meet) by way of pre-nascence, 0bject, dissociation, presence and non-disappearance conditions I believe. Some objects can also condition by way of object predominance and object decisive support conditions. In other words, the conditions are very complicated and don't need to be known:-). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: More complicated than we understand. Even Saariputta would not know as much as The Buddha would know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: At that moment of 'coming together', as I mentioned in my last post, there is not only the inner ayatana of eye-sense, but also the outer ayatana of visible object, the inner ayatana of seeing consciousness (followed by other kinds of consciousness) and the outer ayatanas of various cetasikas arising with the consciousness and also other rupas arising with and conditioning the visible object. I expect I've confused everyone a lot, lot more. I'll look f/w to Htoo's and your further feedback. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I explained in my posts D.O is a form of reavealing conditional relationship. Pathana is another way of revealing the relationship. If you check against D.O commentaries you may find the explanation on relationship. It is not about ayatana but about 'linear relationship'. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah (to Scott): Good to read all your posts and keen questions, Scott. I think you would appreciate the edited audio discussions with K.Sujin. There are a couple of short extracts on the DSG home-page and some full edited series on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Try starting with the most recent and most finely edited one from Bangkok, July 2001. Please let me know if you (or anyone else here) would like cds in mp3 format sent instead, especially if you don't have broadband. (For these requests, best to send them off-list to me with your full postal adds). Metta, Sarah =========== ----------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah. With respect, Htoo Naing 55913 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 646 ) htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Dhamma Thread ( 646 ) is a challenging post. At the end you will see that it was not my belief. There was (and is) a person who loves D.O very much. And frequently posted on D.O with sutta quotes. And say there is moment to moment D.O and so on. I do not have to be against your points as they are the same as mine. I just posted as a hypothetic test. The person and other supporters once came in DSG. But after a few months as they saw they would not benefit from posting their ideas here at DSG they drew back. I frequently announce to invlove in discussion at other sites where they are just under surface of discussion-table. But they did not come out. 12 links D.O is not moment-to-moment. Link-to-link might well be moment-to-moment. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > There are 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness. They are > > not vinnaanas of Dependent Origination. But they have cetanaa > > cetasika > > when they arise and this cetanaa is main culprit of all actions or > > formations or sankhaara. So they are 'sankhaara of D.O' rather > > than 'vinnaanas of D.O'. .... S: OK, yes, sankhara of D.O. when them are abhisankhara or kamma- patha cetanaa. .... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you believe that there are akusala cittas but they do not give rise to vipaaka? --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But one needs to be careful that implication is not the same as > > cetana > > is cetasika and 12 akusala cittas are cittas, which are also known > > as > > vinnaanas. If just one citta is considered in these 12 akusala > > cittas > > it is not linear but it is conditional. -------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Confused:-/ As you're stressing, in DO vinnaana does not refer to akusala cittas, so let's stick to the DO use of the terms here.... Vinnaana refers here only to patisandhi citta and subsequent vipaka cittas, agreed? .... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please read all especially final part of the post. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Example a lobha citta arises. > > > > It is because of avijja. In that citta moha already exists. Because > > of avijjaa there have to arise sankhaara (cetanaa). Cetana also > > arises > > at the very same time. Because of sankhaara (cetanaa) there has to > > arise vinnaana (akusala citta or lobha citta). -------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: No, because of sankhaara (here referring to kamma capable of bringing results), there arise vinnaana (here referring to patisandhi (rebirth consciousness) specifically and other vipaka cittas. .... -------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said above. --------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: No, kamma (sankhaara here) cannot arise at the same moment as vipaka(vinnaana here). ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I said I do not believe moment-to-moment D.O. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > When this lobha citta arises there also arise cittaja ruupa and > > cetasikas along with lobha citta. So naama-ruupa also arise at the > > very same moment. > > > > So the example is 'arising of a single moment of lobha citta'. > > > > At that time there are_ > > > > 1.avijjaa, 2.sankhaara, 3. vinnaana, 4. naama-ruupa. > > > > But 'naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanaa' does not apply in this case. > > Because lobha citta does not condition '6-sense-base' to arise. I do > > not believe moment to moment paticcasamuppaada. > > > > Any thought? ... S: Rather confused:-/ The sankhaara refers to past kamma in previous lives which conditions the patisandhi and other vipaka cittas in this lifetime, accompanied by cetasikas and kamma produced rupas. I'll leave all your other DO threads til we come to some agreement on these. Thanks for bravely giving this series and for all your posts in our absence. Metta, Sarah ======== -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No disagreement at all on D.O. I know your thought on aayatana. With respect, Htoo Naing 55914 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 819 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii The initial object or aaramma.na is vanno. Here it is the shape, form, colour or visual object of the prepared disc of earth-material. There has not arise any bhaavana yet. At that time there may be attachment, and ignorance if there they are. Because of the concentrated mind now the eyes see all the detail on the disc of earth. This seeing is all at once as a whole. Example; the whole circumference is seen. The whole disc is seen. All the markings like dimples, humps, grass if any are also seen. Seeing and thinking on seeing here may alternate until they become the exact copies of the same sense. Here the object is pannatti or concept. There is no other thinking when the right concept is contemplated. At such time the object the disc of earth can be called 'parikamma nimitta'. Nimitta are aaramma.na and here they are aarammana.na nimitta and they are nimitta-pannatti or concept. As concept do not arise they cannot fall away. Because of this they are not disturbed by anything. This is the basis why jhaana are still. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55915 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 820 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii When the eyes and mind can see all the details in the disc of earth kasi.na there is no other thoughts apart from the idea of 'earth' or 'pathavii' there can be said that a sign called preparatory sign or parikamma nimitta has arisen. This initial sign is preparing for the next sign. When the eye can see the wholeness of the earth-kasi.na disc the mind when with opening eyes can also see the same sign. At a time even when the eyes are closed there is clearly the sign that reveals all the details in the earth-disc. This indicates arising of the next sign called uggaha nimitta. It is the exact copy of the preparatory sign and the only difference is that it is seen by the mind and not by the eyes. At this stage the steadfast mind to continue 'the practice' is essential. Otherwise the sign may disappear. When this mental image or uggaha nimitta appears the bhaavanaa at that time can be called 'parikamma bhaavanaa' or preparatory meditation for the higher bhaavanaa. When there is uggaha nimitta or mental image there is little disturbance by hindrances. But this is not that strong and hindrances may occupy at any time after achievement of mental image. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55916 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 821 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii When there is mental image of the disc of earth kasina or when there arise the sign called uggaha nimitta the bhaavana at that time is called parikamma bhaavanaa. There are possibilities that hindrances might arise at this time. If hindrances are well leanred then there will be possibilities that they arise less frequently. Actually pannati does not arise and does not fall away. So why did I say uggaha nimitta arise? I say this because there is a continuous flow of cittas and once a citta that take the object nimitta or pannatti arise then it would sound like that uggaha nimitta arises. The woman who come to know that she has conceived and become pregnant she has to be very very careful not to abort her conceptus or her embryo in her womb. If she is careless and falls from high such as stairs there is possibilities that her pregnacy might face with miscarriage. Like this simile when uggaha nimitta arise this has to be kept not to lose. If lose one has to restart from the beginning. That is he or she has to re-use his or her eyes to see the disc and its detail until the uggaha nimitta arises or until the mental image arises. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55917 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 817 ) jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Dhamma Friends, > >'Kamma.t.thaana' > >Kamma.t.thaana_: Samatha_:; Kasi.na_:;; Pathavii > >The preparation is now completed. There is a particular place chosen >for meditation. There is a particular time chosen for meditation. >Now >it is quite ready to start the journey of jhaana. > >The object initially is the disc of earth. But it is not 'the disc >of >earth'. Do not be confused. All dhammas have discussed in detail in >Dhamma Thread ( 001 ) to Dhamma Thread ( 807 ). > >The initial object is 'vanno' or colour that resides in the disc of >earth, which is in circular shape. Now the meditator is >concentrating >his mind at the centre of the disc. > >When doing so the mind may go about on the surface of the disc here >and there. Let it be. But know it happens so. The reason that the >disc >has to be circular is that there are equal distances from the >circumference to the centre. > >The mind has to be put at the centre. When doing so this mean that >the >eye is looking right at the centre. The reason that the disc has to >be >24 to 27 inches is for suitability for everage person. But there may >have variability among different people. > >The bigger the disc the weaker the pannaa because of growth of moha >or >ignorance. The smaller the disc the more limited the space for the >mind and the more benefit for people with excursing mind. So 24 to >27 >inches is quite suitable foe everage person. > >But for people with perfected power they do not need any of these and >if there is a right time he or she may even gain the sign of >pathavii- >kasi.na even at looking at the ordinary surface of the earth. > >After choosing the place and the time the meditator has also to >choose >the right distance from the disc. Otherwise there might have delay >in >achieving the sign. > > As discussed earlier in this thread, samatha bhavanaa means the development of kusala tranquillity accompanied by panna. I would be interested to know what is the kusala involved in what you have described here and, in particular, what is the panna. Jon 55918 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 817 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Htoo As discussed earlier in this thread, samatha bhavanaa means the development of kusala tranquillity accompanied by panna. I would be interested to know what is the kusala involved in what you have described here and, in particular, what is the panna. Jon --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sarah asked the same question long time ago. The answer is 'I do not know'. According to AS rupa-jhaana, arupa- jhana are kusala. Obviously their objects are pannatti with the only exception of 2nd and 4th arupa jhaana who take paramattha dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 55919 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities mlnease Hi Charles, Please forgive the late reply, I've been away: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:11 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@... wrote: M: >> Isn't form (ruupa) a paramattha dhamma? > C: > I believe it is a matter of where we put our point of view. > > If I show you the moon, and then I show you some dust in my hand, can > we say that the moon is the dust (in sammuti sacca)? M: I'm not sure I understand you here-- C: > But in > paramattha sacca, both are rupa, aren't they? M: I don't think so--in paramattha sacca, 'dust' and 'moon' would both be pa.n.natti, I think. C: > Rupa in nama-rupa is a concept, because it does not have sabhava. > While rupas in 28 rupas have their own sabhavas, isn't it? M: Ruupa in abhidhamma is not concept, it is paramattha dhamma, precisely because it does have sabhava as I understand it. M: >> Certainly beings take concepts for self. But don't we all also >> take paramattha dhammas as me, mine or myself? My form, my > feelings, >> my perceptions, my formations, my consciousnesses? > C: > I would take it as different Mike :D > > Form in a concept, its reality is the 28 rupas > Feeling is a concept, its reality is the vedana cetasika > Consciousness is a concept, its reality is the 89 cittas > Sankhara is a concept, its reality is the cetasikas > Sanna is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka citta M: I think I understand what you're saying--of course there 'is' the concept of each khandha, which is concept, but there is also the reality of each khandha. I think the former is usually mistaken for the latter. C: > Sorry if I map it wrong :D M: Did I understand you correctly? C: > An analogy would be, if I break water molecules into hydrogen and > oxygen, and then I give it to you, can I say that I am giving water > to you :-? M: This is a scientific, chemical analysis, right? Do you mean it as an analogy for analysis in the suttanta method? C: > In abhidhamma, we would break water into fluidity, hardness, > temperature, movement, taste, and others in the 28 rupas. At the time > we can see the elementary elements that make up the water, we do not > think about water anymore. M: The point of analysis whether by the suttanta method or the abhidhamma method is detachment, I think. Is the pertinent to what you've written? M: >> Hope you'll pardon my butting in. C: > Absolutely not, it is even better when more people are involved in > the talk :] M: Thanks Charles, I'm grateful for the opportunity to discuss these matters and I appreciate your thoughtfulness and courtesy. mike 55920 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:03pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 822 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii In kamma.t.thaana portion of 'Abhidhammattha Sa`ngaha' [AS] there are two parts. They are samatha and vipassanaa. In samatha there are 7 kamma.t.thaana; they are 1. kasi.na (wholeness) 2. asubha (foulness) 3. anussati(recollection) 4. brahmavihaara (pure abode) 5. aruppa (non-material) 6. aharepa.tikuulasa~n~naa (food-disgustion) 7. catudhaatuvavatthaana (four elemental discrimination) That is why I put the subtopics like this; kamma.t.thaana/samatha/kasi.na There are 10 kasi.na. Now we are discussing on earth kasi.na or pathavii kasi.na. So the topic is pathavii kasi.na. Pathavii is very basic of all ruupa matters. Without pathavii there cannot be any ruupa at all. This is explained in patthaana dhamma with many different conditions as paccayas. If one becomes an expert in pathavii-kasi.na and its jhaana power then he or she can exercise jhaana power in creation of various ruupas. That is from a single person to over 1000 people, create many different faces with many different characters, and many others. When pathavii kasi.na is well understood then all other 9 kasi.nas will automatically be understood with only changes in the initial object and so the initial signs. There are two 'kamma.t.thaana'; they are samatha and vipassanaa. Both are bhaavanaa kusala or 'mental cultivating merit'. The bhaavanaa have three different stages. They are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximate cultivation) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation) These three bhaavanaa or 'mental cultivations' are marked with their objects as signs. Parikamma bhaavanaa have the object called uggaha nimitta or mental image. This mental image is the exact copy of visual image of the kasi.na disc of earth. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55921 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:05pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 823 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii There are three bhaavanaas or three 'mental cultivations'. They are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximate cultivation) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation) These three bhaavanaas or mental cultivations have markers as signs which indicate that these are so and so called bhaavanaa or mental cultivations. When we first look at the disc of earth-kasi.na there arise parikamma nimitta. This nimitta is initial visual image that arise in the mind. When this image appears without looking at the disc any more then there can be said that another sign arise. This sign is uggaha nimitta or mental image. This image is the mental image of the visual image. When this image appears then the bhaavanaa at that time can be called as 'parikamma bhaavanaa'. Because this cultivation or bhaavana prepares for arising of next bhaavanaa called upacaara bhaavanaa or proximate cultivation. Proximate means 'close'. Upacaara is quite close to jhaana. So it is called upacaara bhaavanaa. The concentration or samaadhi in these two bhaavanaas are called 'parikamma samaadhi' and 'upacaara samaadhi' respectively. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55922 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:07pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 824 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Two kamma.tthaana are samatha (tranquility meditation) and vipassanaa (insight meditation). Three bhaavanaas or three cultivations are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximate cultivation) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation). Three nimittas or three samatha-signs are 1. parikamma nimitta (initial visual image) 2. uggaha nimitta (mental image) 3. pa.tibhaaga nimitta (counter image) Three samaadhis or 3 concentrations are 1. parikamma samaadhi (initial preparatory concentration to jhaana) 2. upacaara samaadhi (proximate concentration to jhaana) 3. appanaa samaadhi (portal concentration to jhaana) May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55923 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Charles, Dear Charles, Mike and all, 'M: >> Certainly beings take concepts for self. But don't we all also >> take paramattha dhammas as me, mine or myself? My form, my > feelings, >> my perceptions, my formations, my consciousnesses? > C: > I would take it as different Mike :D > > Form in a concept, its reality is the 28 rupas > Feeling is a concept, its reality is the vedana cetasika > Consciousness is a concept, its reality is the 89 cittas > Sankhara is a concept, its reality is the cetasikas > Sanna is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka citta M: I think I understand what you're saying--of course there 'is' the concept of each khandha, which is concept, but there is also the reality of each khandha. I think the former is usually mistaken for the latter. C: > Sorry if I map it wrong :D -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here who is saying 'sannaa is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka citta'? With Metta, Htoo Naing 55924 From: "Charles" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < htootintnaing@...> wrote: > Here who is saying 'sannaa is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka > citta'? Why do we need any 'who' here ? :-) 55925 From: "Charles" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > htootintnaing@> wrote: > > Here who is saying 'sannaa is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka > > citta'? > > Why do we need any 'who' here ? :-) Pardon me, I take my answer back. It's the sanna itself who say ' sanna is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka citta' :-) 55926 From: "Charles" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > M: I don't think so--in paramattha sacca, 'dust' and 'moon' would both be > pa.n.natti, I think. And dust and moon are also called rupa, at least conventionally. So I find two kind of rupa, conventional and ultimate. > M: I think I understand what you're saying--of course there 'is' the > concept of each khandha, which is concept, but there is also the reality of > each khandha. I think the former is usually mistaken for the latter. I think so, I am not sure on my own words :-), they only comes from thinking, not from direct experience :P > C: > An analogy would be, if I break water molecules into hydrogen and > > oxygen, and then I give it to you, can I say that I am giving water > > to you :-? > > M: This is a scientific, chemical analysis, right? Do you mean it as an > analogy for analysis in the suttanta method? No, it is meant as an analogy for the abhidhamma method. When we have break khandhas into their ultimate realities, can we say the ultimate realities is what the khandhas is? Can we said, khandhas are essentially the paramattha dhammas. But the latter is a concept. We cannot equalize them with paramattha dhammas. Khandhas are khandhas, paramattha dhammas are paramattha dhammas. They are different. That is why when we see paramattha dhammas, we do not see khandhas. > M: The point of analysis whether by the suttanta method or the abhidhamma > method is detachment, I think. Is the pertinent to what you've written? > In adhidhamma, there is nothing to be detached, I think :] We just see things as they are. > M: Thanks Charles, I'm grateful for the opportunity to discuss these > matters and I appreciate your thoughtfulness and courtesy. I am grateful too, but don't you think, even if it is true, we are creating more and more view here? :P For example, people who want to go to some planet outerspace do not talk about the planet itself, instead they talk about how to get to the planet. Talking about the planet itself is early arguments, we will know it when we get there. 55927 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:05pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 379- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] As we have seen, there are many degrees of defilements, they can be gross or more subtle. The sakadågåmí still has the latent tendencies of sensuous desire and aversion, but they have become attenuated. Therefore, in comparison with the sotåpanna these latent tendencies are less gross, they are more subtle. The group of latent tendencies as a whole can be called subtle defilements. They are subtle in so far as they are latent; they are subtle in comparison with akusala citta rooted in lobha, dosa or moha, which appears, and which can be called “medium defilement” and with akusala citta which has the intensity to motivate evil deeds through body, speech or mind, which can be called “gross defilement”. However, the term subtle should not mislead us. The latent tendencies are dangerous, pertinacious, they are hard to eradicate. They condition the arising of akusala dhammas again and again. The magga-citta of the anågåmí eradicates completely the latent tendencies of sense-desire and aversion, these can never arise again. However, he has not eradicated all forms of clinging, he still has the latent tendency of lust for becoming, rebirth which is the result of jhåna. The magga-citta of the arahat eradicates the latent tendencies of lust for becoming, of conceit and of ignorance. When there is no more “soil” for defilements to grow in, the round of becoming comes to an end. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 55928 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:36pm Subject: Witdrawal Wins ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Withdrawal is the Third Mental Perfection: Withdrawal is Removal of Misery Withdrawal is Extraction of Disease. Withdrawal is Pulling out the splinter of Pain. Withdrawal is Retraction from Danger. Withdrawal is Renunciation of Ill. Withdrawal is Letting Go of what is Burning. Withdrawal is Turning Away from what is Sorrow. Withdrawal is Seclusion from what is Grief. Withdrawal is Clearing of Captivating Illusions. Withdrawal is Waking Up from Enthralling Trance. Withdrawal is Freedom from Enslaving Addiction. Withdrawal is Protection of what is Entrapping. Withdrawal is Giving Up what is Detrimental. Withdrawal is Discharge of what is Infested. Withdrawal is Breaking out of the Prison. Withdrawal is Release from all Suffering... Withdraw, as the man newly freed from prison does not at all wish himself back in prison! The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka Infatuated with lust, impassioned & obsessed, they are caught in their own self-created net, like a spider, which spins it's own web! Cutting through the Noble Friend withdraw & go free, Without longing, without greed, leaving all misery behind. Dhammapada 347 Blissful is solitude for the contented, learned & knowing True Dhamma. Blissful is harmlessness towards all breathing beings without exception. Blissful is freedom from all urge of sensual slavery whatsoever. Yet, supreme bliss, is the withdrawal from the abysmal conceit "I am"!' Udana - Inspiration: II - 1 The Bodhisatta once as the King Culasutasoma gave up his whole kingdom. Knowing this withdrawal to be an advantageous victory, he remembered: A mighty kingdom I possessed, as if it was dropped into my hands... Yet all this tantalizing luxury, I let fall without any even slight trace of longing nor clinging. This was my perfection of Withdrawal. Jataka no. 525 Lust, I say, is a great flood; a whirlpool sucking one down, a constant yearning, seeking a hold, continually active; difficult to cross is such morass of sensual desire... A sage does not deviate from good, but remains steady! A recluse stands on firm ground, when secluded; withdrawn from all, truly he is calmed & silenced! Having directly touched the Dhamma, he is independent. He behaves right & does not envy anyone anywhere... He who has left behind all pleasure arised from sensing, an attachment difficult to cut, is freed of both depression & longing, since he has cut across the flood, and is released. Sutta Nipata IV.15 Any being, that cools down all desires & greedy lusts, by being alert & ever aware of the inherent danger, by directing attention only to these disgusting aspects of all phenomena, such one withdraw from craving and thereby wears down & breaks the chains of this prison. Dhammapada 350 If one gains an infinite ease by leaving a minor pleasure, the clever one should swap the luminous for that trifling sensual pleasure, by withdrawing from this trivial boredom. Dhammapada 290 The one who has reached the sublime end all perfected, is fearless, freed of craving, desireless and unclinging... Such one has broken the chains of being and is certainly withdrawing into the final phase, wearing his last frame. Dhammapada 351 The household life is a cramped way, choked with dust. To leave it, is like coming out into the free space of open air! It is not easy for one who lives at home, to live the Noble life completely perfect and pure, bright as mother-of-pearl. Surely I will now shave off my hair & go forth into homelessness. Only Misery Arises. Only Misery Ceases. Nothing good is thus lost by withdrawing from it all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 55929 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, This may be a little confusing as I need to keep some old text for context after the time gap. Apologies in advance. --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Matheesha) - <...> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I said that "when our mental faculties function properly, > unobscured > by defilement, with ignorance out of the way if not uprooted, we *say* > that > they operate with wisdom. " Now, when we are in deep sleep, our mental > functions > aren't functioning, so that is a moot point. .... Sarah: Well, the bhavanga cittas and accompanying mental factors are functioning, otherwise there'd be no life:). Anyway, back to awake states, I can only say that according to the Abhidhamma, strictly speaking, we cannot say that there is wisdom arising whenever ignorance isn't arising. .... H:>My point is that I consider > cognitive operations that function undefiled by defilements as > "functioning with > wisdom". Wise attention, insightful perception, and so on, are the > proper, > undefiled performance of cognitive operations. That is my take on it. > ------------------------------------------------ ... Sarah: Ok, to put it another way, we can certainly say that that when there is wisdom or wise attention of any kind, there are no defilements arising. ... S:> > Pa~n~naa is a specific mental factor which arises when there are the > right > > conditions and ‘illuminates’ the object being experienced. Even > when there > > are wholesome states arising, such as when we show generosity or > kindness, > > there usually isn’t any pa~n~naa arising which knows or determines > > anything. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is the Abhidhamma perspective on wisdom. That is so. I > understand > it differently, however. (My reading of the suttas persuades me of that. > See > AN I.49-52, Pabhassara Sutta, for example.) > ----------------------------------------- ... Sarah: Ah, our favourite 'luminous' Sutta. As you know, the commentary note states that the 'luminous' (pabhassara) refers here to those bhavanga cittas preceding the defiled states. The previous sutta lines stress how quickly the mind changes. Even wisdom doesn't last for a finger-snap. This is true even for the Buddha. It’s not there in the background waiting to illuminate whenever ignorance doesn’t arise, as I see it. .... <....> S:> Again “Wisdom> > > (pa~n~naa) is what knows the way (pakaarena) [of things]; it > understands > > them as impermanent, etc.â€? > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > And, again, I don't agree with that or its agent-oriented > formulation. > -------------------------------------- S:> By stressing that it’s an element, a cetasika> > > which performs this function, it becomes apparent that there is no > self or > > person of any kind involved. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not so. When something is spoken of as an agent, that is > atta-terminology. > ------------------------------------- S:> However, different elements do arise, do> > > exist momentarily, do perform their functions momentarily and do fall away. > > > > In AN, Bk of 3s, 35 ‘Three Sectarian Tenets’(Bodhi transl), there is an account of the elements. In the commentary note which Bodhi gives, it says: > > > > “The four mental aggregates are ‘name’ (or ‘mentality’, >> naama)and the aggregate of form is ‘form’(or matter, ruupa). Thus there are only these two things: name and form (naamaruupa). Beyond that, there is neither a substantial being (satta) nor a soul (jiiva). In this way one should understand in brief the meditation >>subject of the six elements that leads up to arahantship.â€? > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > So? > -------------------------------------- Sarah: The point was that it is the understanding of dhammas as namas and rupas, as elements which is important in order to overcome any ideas of being or soul. If we don't appreciate that it's the function of panna to see clearly or 'know the way (pakaarena)' momentarily, there will be an idea that self sees or that there is some kind of lasting 'event' of panna. <...> > Howard: > With respect ;-), when we appreciate that everything we find are just conditioned, and fleeting experiential events and operations, there is no question of there being any substantial being involved. > -------------------------------- ... Sarah: What do you mean here by 'experiential events and operations'? I still wonder why you prefer to use these terms for momentary arising dhammas given your concern for accurate linguistic usage? To be contd. Metta, Sarah ======== 55930 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:33pm Subject: Tumult? sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, We're glad to say that the U.P. links are working once again after some time-consuming trial and error work and assistance. Please let us know if you have further difficulties with it. When I asked you how you found the recent discussions in Bangkok, you summarised as being in 'Tumult', if I recall. Would you care to elaborate with your usual good humour? I think everyone would find it interesting and I'm sure we'll all sympathise:-). I hope you had a good trip home. Metta, Sarah p.s Have you listened to any of the Erik cd discussions yet? Do you have any comments or any points to raise on them? ============================================== 55931 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, Continued S:>> U Narada > writes: > > > > “An element is defined as that which bears its own intrinsic nature.It cannot be split up or transformed into another.â€? > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > There is some truth here, but the formulation is terrible. If > that were exactly how elements should be defined, then, as I understand the Dhamma, there are no elements! .... S::-). It just means that an element has a characteristic or sabhava and that it cannot be broken down or transformed into any other element (dhatu). .... > ------------------------------------ <....> > > S: :-) Without pa~n~naa there is no way out of samsara, there is no > path, there is no Dhamma. > > > > Yes, it is pa~n~naa which realizes the 4 Noble Truths and which > abandons what should be abandoned. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here you put pa~n~na forward as an agent, and not just an agent that knows, but an agent that acts!! I think that is a seriously poor usage. Wisdom does not abandon anything. Due to wise knowing, what should be abandoned is abandoned. The abandoning is a particular releasing of grasping, but not the activity of a doer called "wisdom". >There are no doers in actuality,just doing. > --------------------------------------- .... Sarah: Yes, no doers - no person, no substantial anything. You stress an important point. But what is it other than panna (wisdom) (or the function of panna, if you prefer) which realizes the Truths, realizes the 3 characteristics of all conditioned dhammas and abandons defilements? As I quoted from the text: > > Pahaana pari~n~naa (full understanding as abandoning) is the pa~n~naa which realizes the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, overcoming or abandoning the ideas of permanence, satisfactoriness and self for good. This is the particular quality or nature of pa~n~naa. > > > > You might like to look at the suttas on Abandonment in > > Sa.laayatansa.myutta, SN, 24 and 25. The second one starts with the > Buddha saying: > > > > “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Dhamma for abandoning all through > direct knowledge and full understanding(sabba.m abhi~n~naa pari~n~naa > > pahaanaaya)â€?. It goes on to indicate how all dhammas are abandoned through the highly developed pa~n~naa only. .... S: Do you have any problem with these passages and the language used in them in either the translation or the Pali ‘pahaanaaya’? To be continued if I have time:). Metta, Sarah Thank you for your other kind messages about our friends. Nina and I were also thinking about little Sophie and discussing how lovable and affectionate Down syndrome children often are. ======================== 55932 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 0:28am Subject: Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Chris & all, > > We're glad to say that the U.P. links are working once again after some > time-consuming trial and error work and assistance. Please let us know if > you have further difficulties with it. > > When I asked you how you found the recent discussions in Bangkok, you > summarised as being in 'Tumult', if I recall. Would you care to elaborate with your usual good humour? I think everyone would find it interesting and I'm sure we'll all sympathise:-). > > I hope you had a good trip home. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Have you listened to any of the Erik cd discussions yet? Do you have > any comments or any points to raise on them? > ============================================== > Hello Sarah, all, I'll try to post something coherent and/or relevant a little later. Arrived back in Brisbane to be met by my son ... I wondered about that, he usually delegates 'collecting Mum' to his sister. More ominously, he was in casual clothes, and said he had taken the whole day off (this from someone who works seven days a week and has had three days off - to attend a wedding - in the last year). As we leave the carpark, he asks for directions to the Holy Spirit Hospital ... The day after I left Brisbane for Bangkok, my older brother went into hospital - was discharged the next day, with instructions not to drive or lift anything at all for a week. My elderly mother, who has poor eyesight and hearing, and is a little unsteady on her feet, for some reason thought she could hold a glass of milk in one hand, some knives and forks in the other, at the same time as stepping over the labrador dog. The labrador stood up, mother fell dropping everything with a clatter, and injured herself - compound fracture of the forearm below the wrist. She called for my brother. He couldn't lift her - didn't dare - after his doctors' instructions. The ambulance was called, but took 50 minutes to arrive, with mother still lying on the floor in pain, my brother trying to make her comfortable, and the dog hiding under the house. So I went straight from the airport to the hospital after an all night flight from BKK. Brother is fine, mother is cheerful and will have a plate put in the forearm and should be home this coming weekend. I tell them they can't be trusted to be left alone for a moment. :-) :-) So ... what seemed such a big deal in BKK has faded a little into the background ... I'll make a special effort to 'resurrect the Angst!' :-) metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 55933 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, all, > > I'll try to post something coherent and/or relevant a little > later. Arrived back in Brisbane to be met by my son ... <...> > So I went straight from the airport to the hospital after an > all night flight from BKK. Brother is fine, mother is cheerful and > will have a plate put in the forearm and should be home this coming > weekend. I tell them they can't be trusted to be left alone for a > moment. :-) :-) ... S: I'm glad they're doing well and I'm glad to hear your mother will soon be coming home and the injuries aren't more serious still. .... > > So ... what seemed such a big deal in BKK has faded a little into > the background ... I'll make a special effort to 'resurrect the > Angst!' :-) .... S: Angst be it then:-). Will look f/w to the resurrection and meanwhile wish you all a happy family gathering this weekend. Traumas do put Tumults in perspective! Metta, Sarah p.s say 'hi' to Luke - very considerate of him to cope and take care of everything while you were away. ================================= 55934 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:40am Subject: More on Wisdom & Agents (was: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, As Jon mentioned recently, the literal meaning of pa.tipatti (dirct knowing of dhammas, i.e satipatthana) is ‘reaching/touching the particular’, indicating, as he said, ‘that panna touches the characteristic of the dhamma that is the object of consciousness at that moment.’ In the texts such as the Atthasalini 307,(transl as Expositor, Moral Consciousness in the Worlds of Sense) we read that: ‘Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature (yathaa-sabhaava-pa.tivedha-lakkha.naa pa~n~naa), unfaltering penetration as its characteristic (uppajjamaanaa akkhalita-pa.tivedha-lakkha.naa), like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function (visayobhaasana-rasaa padiipo viya), non-perplexity as its proximate cause (asammoha-paccupa.t.thaanaa), as it were a good guide in the forest.” Just to consider these similes a little further, no one believes that the archer himself (or his bow) penetrates the target, but we say ‘he hits the target’ and understand that this refers to the hitting of the target by the arrow. Similarly, we say ‘the torch lights up the room’ when really it is the function of the torch, conditioned by the turning on of the torch which illuminates. A little earlier in the text we read that: “Pa~n~naa means one understands (pajaanaati ti pa~n~naa’. What does one understand? The Ariyan Facts (or Truths) by the method: This is ill, etc.....It has illuminating and understanding as characteristic. As when a lamp burns at night in a four-walled house the darkness ceases, light manifests itself, so understanding has illuminating as its characteristic. There is no illumination equal to the illumination of understanding. To the wise at a single sitting the ten thousand world-sphere appear as of one light. “Hence the Elder has said: ‘Just as when a man, your majesty, introduces an oil-lamp into a dark home, the lamp so introduced disperses the darkness, produces light, sheds luster, makes objects visible, so, your majesty, understanding as it arises dispels the darkness of ignorance, produces the light of wisdom, sheds the luster of knowledge, makes plain the Ariyan Facts. Thus, your majesty, understanding has illuminating as its characteristic.’ (Mil I 61) S: So whether we say ‘the lamp (or torch) lights up the room’ or ‘there is a lighting up the room when the torch is turned on’ doesn’t affect the meaning as I see it. Just as the turning on of the switch of the torch leads to the lighting up of the room, so the arising of panna leads to the ‘illumination’ of the dhamma which appears when the light ‘manifests’. This, I believe, is what is meant by ‘panna understands’ or ‘pajaanaatii ti pa~n~naa’ as given above. Thanks for helping me to reflect further. I’ll look forward to any further comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ======================== 55935 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:39am Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? christine_fo... Hello all, Sarah asked me if I'd like to put up a post about how it had been for me on this trip to BKK. I told her that I wasn't sure this was a good idea - because, in many ways, I wasn't feeling at ease about the trip - that confidence had decreased, that doubt had increased. "Put up a post anyway", she said…. Much of the discussion this time revolved around Ajahn Sujin describing this life as a `dream' 'nothing is real' - and the sights and sounds of people and things as being `nimittas'. There was the usual insistence of seeing that `all there is' is just this moment, and then again, just this moment, and then again .. which I don't disagree with. But there was also a strong insistence that one should *begin* with a clear realisation or understanding of the anatta-ness of all phenomena. No `gradual' increase in understanding - no concepts - straight to double-barrelled Paramattha dhammas(and all in Pali please .. we're DSG-ers!!) Howard's (rather famous :-)description of some of the views of the DSG and BKK group as seeming to be `helpless and hopeless' echoed in my mind during this stay. (I even brought the term up in one of the recorded discussions.) I thought of the Factors of Stream Entry: "`What now, Saariputta, is a factor for stream-entry?" "Association with superior persons, venerable sir, is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream- entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry." SN55.5 During these discussions, there was an alluding to the 'fact'that any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. It seems to me that it is not possible for all the suttas which mention these practices to be in some sort of code where they don't "really" mean what they say. It seems to me that there is not a complete lack of control … even DSG-ers choose to read or go to hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from really knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one to 'know' anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'. There also was on occasions an uncomfortable amount of dosa in the discussions, intolerance and blunt remarks by one or two towards others present who didn't follow the DSG [lack of] practice, and who were meditators. Well ... you asked ... Metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 55936 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hello all, > > Sarah asked me if I'd like to put up a post about how it had been > for me on this trip to BKK. I told her that I wasn't sure this was > a good idea - because, in many ways, I wasn't feeling at ease about > the trip - that confidence had decreased, that doubt had > increased. "Put up a post anyway", she said…. ... Many thanks indeed. I think it's good that you've raised your honest impressions:)). Perhaps it will encourage Matt, Elle, Sukin, Betty or others to respond if they have any comments or inspire Azita, Nina or Jon to add their reflections about the discussions too. At least Phil will appreciate now that it's not just on discussion lists that things can get a little heated:-). Thanks again, Chris. If you have anything else you'd like to add from the formal or informal discussions you had, please do. Metta, Sarah ========= 55937 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/22/06 2:21:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard &all, > > This may be a little confusing as I need to keep some old text for context > after the time gap. Apologies in advance. > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi, Sarah (and Matheesha) - > <...> > >------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I said that "when our mental faculties function properly, > >unobscured > >by defilement, with ignorance out of the way if not uprooted, we *say* > >that > >they operate with wisdom. " Now, when we are in deep sleep, our mental > >functions > >aren't functioning, so that is a moot point. > .... > Sarah: Well, the bhavanga cittas and accompanying mental factors are > functioning, otherwise there'd be no life:). Anyway, back to awake states, > I can only say that according to the Abhidhamma, strictly speaking, we > cannot say that there is wisdom arising whenever ignorance isn't arising. > .... ------------------------------------------ Howard: As I understand it, "bhavanga" is a purely commentarial notion. I don't believe the Buddha ever taught anything along those lines. It might be a reality, and maybe not. I'm certainly not a believer in it. ---------------------------------------- > > H:>My point is that I consider > >cognitive operations that function undefiled by defilements as > >"functioning with > >wisdom". Wise attention, insightful perception, and so on, are the > >proper, > >undefiled performance of cognitive operations. That is my take on it. > >------------------------------------------------ > ... > Sarah: Ok, to put it another way, we can certainly say that that when > there is wisdom or wise attention of any kind, there are no defilements > arising. > ... > S:> >Pa~n~naa is a specific mental factor which arises when there are the > >right > >>conditions and ‘illuminates’ the object being experienced. Even > >when there > >>are wholesome states arising, such as when we show generosity or > >kindness, > >>there usually isn’t any pa~n~naa arising which knows or determines > >>anything. > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > That is the Abhidhamma perspective on wisdom. That is so. I > >understand > >it differently, however. (My reading of the suttas persuades me of that. > >See > >AN I.49-52, Pabhassara Sutta, for example.) > >----------------------------------------- > ... > Sarah: Ah, our favourite 'luminous' Sutta. As you know, the commentary > note states that the 'luminous' (pabhassara) refers here to those bhavanga > cittas preceding the defiled states. The previous sutta lines stress how > quickly the mind changes. Even wisdom doesn't last for a finger-snap. This > is true even for the Buddha. It’s not there in the background waiting to > illuminate whenever ignorance doesn’t arise, as I see it. --------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, I have no reason to accept the notion of "bhavanga cittas". More importantly, even if I had, there is no way that that is my understanding of this sutta. I consider that commentarial interpretation to be completely off the mark. What the sutta says is eminently clear to me. It says that defilements are *adventitious, inessential. It asserts that the mind is luminous both when undefiled and when defiled. That is crystal clear to me. The defilements infect a vulnerable mind, but they are extraneous to it, else they could never be removed. They can come, but they can be uprooted. ----------------------------------------- > .... > <....> > S:> Again “Wisdom> > >>(pa~n~naa) is what knows the way (pakaarena) [of things]; it > >understands > >>them as impermanent, etc.â€Â? > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And, again, I don't agree with that or its agent-oriented > >formulation. > >-------------------------------------- > S:> By stressing that it’s an element, a cetasika> > >>which performs this function, it becomes apparent that there is no > >self or > >>person of any kind involved. > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Not so. When something is spoken of as an agent, that is > >atta-terminology. > >------------------------------------- > S:> However, different elements do arise, do> > >>exist momentarily, do perform their functions momentarily and do fall > away. > >> > >>In AN, Bk of 3s, 35 ‘Three Sectarian Tenets’(Bodhi transl), there > is an account of the elements. In the commentary note which Bodhi gives, > it says: > >> > >>“The four mental aggregates are ‘name’ (or ‘mentality’, > >>naama)and the aggregate of form is ‘form’(or matter, ruupa). Thus > there are only these two things: name and form (naamaruupa). Beyond that, > there is neither a substantial being (satta) nor a soul (jiiva). In this > way one should understand in brief the meditation >>subject of the six > elements that leads up to arahantship.â€Â? > > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > So? > >-------------------------------------- > Sarah: The point was that it is the understanding of dhammas as namas and > rupas, as elements which is important in order to overcome any ideas of > being or soul. If we don't appreciate that it's the function of panna to > see clearly or 'know the way (pakaarena)' momentarily, there will be an > idea that self sees or that there is some kind of lasting 'event' of > panna. ------------------------------------------ Howard: It is the understanding of namas and rupas as impersonal mental operations and material elements of experience that are fleeting, unsatisfying, and utterly dependent on what is not-them that overcomes and uproots all delusion. If that is what you are asserting, then we agree on this point. ----------------------------------------- > > <...> > >Howard: > > With respect ;-), when we appreciate that everything we find are > just conditioned, and fleeting experiential events and operations, there > is no question of there being any substantial being involved. > >-------------------------------- > ... > Sarah: What do you mean here by 'experiential events and operations'? I > still wonder why you prefer to use these terms for momentary arising > dhammas given your concern for accurate linguistic usage? --------------------------------------- Howard: I use this terminology because in a precise discussion I try to speak only of what is possible for me to be aware of and not of unknowable hypotheticals. -------------------------------------- > > To be contd. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==================== With metta, Howard * Dictionary definition for 'adventitious' follows (for non-native speakers of English) Main Entry: ad·ven·ti·tious Pronunciation: "ad-(")ven-'ti-sh&s, -v&n- Function: adjective Etymology: Latin adventicius 1 : coming from another source and not inherent or innate 2 : arising or occurring sporadically or in other than the usual location - ad·ven·ti·tious·ly adverb lookupchange('adventitious','lookUpDic'); /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 55938 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/22/06 2:47:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Thank you for your other kind messages about our friends. Nina and I were > also thinking about little Sophie and discussing how lovable and > affectionate Down syndrome children often are. > ====================== Sarah, thank you, and thanks also to Nina. So far, after the time of her birth on 12/2 when we were there, we've only seen Sophie's pix. It happens that she is incredibly beautiful! She is extraordinary looking - strikingly so. We will be with her for the first time since her birth in a little under a month. We're going to be there from March 20 through April 3. Unfortunately, on March 23 she will have her open-heart surgery performed to repair the large whole and to do valve repair. To say that we are both hopeful and also terribly worried would be an understatement. We all love her enormously already, and with that, unfortunately, comes a fierce clinging. The best we can do is to be aware of exactly what is what in our heart and mind, and to permit ourselves as best we can to accept whatever unfolds. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55939 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities mlnease Hi Again Charles, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:59 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities > I am grateful too, but don't you think, even if it is true, we are > creating more and more view here? :P Not necessarily, I think. There is viewing that is compatible with the path and viewing that isn't, as I see it. Concepts are not viewing, they do not exist and have no sabhaava (sabhaava does not equal atta). Viewing is kamma and has essence (and can take concept, pa.n.natti, or paramattha dhamma as object I believe). Whether taking pa.n.natti or dhamma as object, right view is kusala kamma and wrong view is akusala kamma. It is not an idea--but there are ideas that are compatible with right view and ideas that are not. > For example, people who want to go to some planet outerspace do not > talk about the planet itself, instead they talk about how to get to > the planet. Talking about the planet itself is early arguments, we > will know it when we get there. We all tend to live in an imaginary world of concepts, I think. The way I saw Dhamma before abhidhamma was that the world was an illusion and that insight into that fact led to liberation. The way it seems to me now is that 'the world' is dhammas--realities--and regardless of concepts, it is insight into realities--not concepts--that leads to liberation. Of course, I could be wrong. Thanks again, mike 55940 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:00am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... philofillet Hi Sarah, Howard and all " Now, when we are in deep sleep, our mental > > functions > > aren't functioning, so that is a moot point. > .... > Sarah: Well, the bhavanga cittas and accompanying mental factors are > functioning, otherwise there'd be no life:) I was reading about bhavanga cittas yesterday. Very interesting that even with bhavangas, though we are not aware of the object, there is vedana (feeling), as well as the other universal cetasikas, accompanying. Another example of the way understanding Dhamma intellectually must cover dhammas that we cannot experience ourselves, that go beyond what we can explain rationally, which is another example of the way Dhamma goes against the ways of the world, I think. Phil 55941 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 2/22/06 5:40:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > Hello all, > > Sarah asked me if I'd like to put up a post about how it had been > for me on this trip to BKK. I told her that I wasn't sure this was > a good idea - because, in many ways, I wasn't feeling at ease about > the trip - that confidence had decreased, that doubt had > increased. "Put up a post anyway", she said…. > > Much of the discussion this time revolved around Ajahn Sujin > describing this life as a `dream' 'nothing is real' - and the sights > and sounds of people and things as being `nimittas'. There was the > usual insistence of seeing that `all there is' is just this moment, > and then again, just this moment, and then again .. which I don't > disagree with. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Nor do I, at all. In fact, I rather like it! --------------------------------------- But there was also a strong insistence that one > > should *begin* with a clear realisation or understanding of the > anatta-ness of all phenomena. No `gradual' increase in > understanding - no concepts - straight to double-barrelled > Paramattha dhammas(and all in Pali please .. we're DSG-ers!!) -------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I ust don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but that is just pretense. (As to the Pali, well ... ;-)) On the other hand, to begin with a clear intellectual understanding that our ordinary perception is faulty and that it *is* possible to see *truly*, and to constantly attempt to see what arises as it really is, is, I think, all to the good. -------------------------------------- > > Howard's (rather famous :-)description of some of the views of the > DSG and BKK group as seeming to be `helpless and hopeless' echoed in > my mind during this stay. (I even brought the term up in one of the > recorded discussions.) ------------------------------------- Howard: I repeatedly say that with regard to statements implying that there is no volitional cultivation to be done, as if the dhammic realities underlying such conventional volition as involved in activities such as right effort were null and void. However, urging that one pay attention to whatever rises (and ceases) in the moment actually tends in the opposite direction, I think, in encouraging willful (and wholesome) mental actvity. ------------------------------------ > > I thought of the Factors of Stream Entry: > "`What now, Saariputta, is a factor for stream-entry?" > "Association with superior persons, venerable sir, is a factor for > stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream- > entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in > accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry." SN55.5 > During these discussions, there was an alluding to the 'fact'that > any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, > constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even > dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least > one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, IMO that is most unfortunate - and here I do see 'helpless and hopeless' on the horizon! I think an attitude such as this is dreadfully harmful both to the one who has that attitude and to the listeners to whom s/he advocates it. Here is where the harm resides. Harm doesn't lie in adopting a theory of momentary mindstates and ultimate realities that have own being [And that's atta, folks!!] anywhere nearly as much as in a view that there are no useful actions (kamma) to engage in to lead "one" towards awakening and liberation. To take the fact that there is no "I" to do anything at all as basis for a view that there is nothing at all to be done, especially with regard to attaining a true realization of that fact of impersonality, is the quintessence of irony. --------------------------------------------- > > It seems to me that it is not possible for all the suttas which > mention these practices to be in some sort of code where they > don't "really" mean what they say. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed, Chris! One has to wonder at times whatever happened to common sense. -------------------------------------------- It seems to me that there is not > a complete lack of control … even > DSG-ers choose to read or go to > hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of > any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course! ------------------------------------------- > > Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from really > knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly > talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no > persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one to 'know' > anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an > experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it's more than just parroting I think. I do think that there is a love of Dhamma, though I think the Dhamma is misperceived. I think that there is a strong belief in the theory, but there is a conflating of intellectual understanding with true understanding. Underlying it all, I think, are the following beliefs: 1) The Dhamma in its truest form is to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin. The suttas are stories for the masses. There is Dhamma to found therein, but not without the help of the true sources as mentioned above. 2) Patipatti is indistinguishable from pariyatti, and pariyatti consists overwhelmingly of the studying of "the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin," to quote from item # 1 above. 3) Since reality is reality there is no need to do anything special to enable ourselves to see it as it is, and, in any case, nothing *can* be done to cultivate the mind. "It all depends on conditions," and there is nothing ever to be done to cultivate those conditions. Of course, this makes the whole matter independent of any and all intentional action (kamma), and, thus, it is, in that exact sense, a matter of pure chance. (This last sentence is my analysis. It isn't the stated position of the "nothing can be done" folks.) ----------------------------------------------- > > There also was on occasions an uncomfortable amount of dosa in the > discussions, intolerance and blunt remarks by one or two towards > others present who didn't follow the DSG [lack of] practice, and who > were meditators. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That, I believe, is a consequence of clinging to beliefs. We hang onto beliefs as if they were lifelines or anchors. It is due to strongly resisting the salvational "I could be wrong!" ---------------------------------------------- > > Well ... you asked ... --------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! But Sarah didn't ask that I pile on as well! ;-) ---------------------------------------------
Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > htootintnaing@> wrote: > > Here who is saying 'sannaa is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka > > citta'? > > Why do we need any 'who' here ? :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, It is not 'who' that is important but just clarifying. Sannaa is a concept. This is true. Sannaa is a reality. This is also true. But 'its reality is ahetuka citta' is not that true. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55944 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" > wrote: > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > > htootintnaing@> wrote: > > > Here who is saying 'sannaa is a concept, its reality is the > ahetuka > > > citta'? > > > > Why do we need any 'who' here ? :-) Pardon me, I take my answer back. It's the sanna itself who say ' sanna is a concept, its reality is the ahetuka citta' :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, It is not the first portion. It is the second portion that attract me to invlove. That is 'its reality is the ahetuka citta'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55945 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 826 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Kamma.tthaana, bhaavanaa, nimitta, and samaadhi are important and they should be learned in the form of Paa.li. Kamma.t.thaana 'the zone/pasture/realm/sphere/site/place' where bhaavanaa-kusala- kamma works or takes as its object. Bhaavanaa 'mental cultivation of profitable things' 'mental cultivation of wholesome things' 'mental proliferation of good things' 'mental growing of meritable things' Nimitta 'sign' 'object' 'the name given to objects' 'name' 'pannatti' Samaadhi 'the state of mind that takes the same object for a long time with little disturbance' Pathavii kasi.na is being discussed as a typical jhaana or as a prototype of all 40 kamma.t.thaanas. Pathavii kasi.na invloves kamma.t.thaana, bhaavanaa, nimitta and samaadhi. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55946 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 825 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Kamma.tthaana, bhaavanaa, nimitta, and samaadhi are numbered in the previous post that is they are counted. If there is clear definition of these in the mind then the mind can work more effectively. There are relationship between these. That is between kamma.t.thaana, bhaavanaa, nimitta, and samaadhi. Bhaavana and samaadhi are almost the same. Bhavanaa is focused on citta (bhaavanaa kusala citta) whereas samaadhi is focused on ekaggataa in that bhaavanaa citta. There are two kamma.t.thaana or two forms of meditation. They are tranquility meditation and insight meditation. Here insight meditation will not be accepted by some abhidhammists as they would think vipassanaa is not a special *activity* or special *doing* or special *practice*. First all 40 samatha kamma.t.thaana will be explained. Only after all these kamma.t.thaana vipassanaa kamma.t.thaana will be discussed to some detail. There always are auguments on necessity of jhaana in achieving arahatta magga naana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55947 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:06am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 827 ) htootintnaing 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Pathavii kasi.na is being discussed as a typical jhaana or as a prototype of all 40 kamma.t.thaanas. Pathavii kasi.na invloves kamma.t.thaana, bhaavanaa, nimitta and samaadhi. Pathavii kasi.na or 'earth-kasi.na' is a samatha-kamma.t.thaana. In this kamma.t.thaana there are three bhaavanaas. That is there are three separate states of mind that is great kusala or meritable state. They are 1. parikamma bhaavanaa (preparatory cultivation) 2. upacaara bhaavanaa (proximate cultivation) 3. appanaa bhaavanaa (portal cultivation) Parikamma bhaavanaa can be recognisable by appearance of mental image or uggaha nimitta. Upacaara bhaavanaa can be recognizable by appearance of counter image or pa.tibhaaga nimitta. Appanaa bhaavanaa can be recognizable by attainment of jhaana state. The samaadhi in these three bhaavanaa are named according to the bhaavanaa. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55948 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - nilovg Hi Howard, I am glad you will just be there when Sophie has her surgery. I am sure you can support your family in the best way during those difficult days. Clinging, yes, but also other moments, of kusala citta, helping, caring. I am preparing something for Phil about detachment from the beginning. It is the word detachment creating misunderstandings, giving some ideas of being completely detached. No, it is the cetasika alobha, arising with each kusala citta. It arises and falls away, and it is only momentary. Listening is true listening with kusala citta, thus, with detachment, but many moments of akusala citta in between, when the effort is tiring, when concentration (the wholesome one) is failing. Listening is really difficult, I realised this when in Bgkok. Listening is bhavana, but it does not last, arises and falls away. The true listening and considering with yoniso manasikara needs great effort but as you also will agree there is nobody there who can cause their arising, as they are being dependent on conditions, also stemming from the past. More later, when I write to Phil. Nina. op 22-02-2006 15:21 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > We will be with her for the first time since her birth in a little > under a month. We're going to be there from March 20 through April 3. > Unfortunately, on March 23 she will have her open-heart surgery performed to > repair the > large whole and to do valve repair. To say that we are both hopeful and also > terribly worried would be an understatement. We all love her enormously > already, > and with that, unfortunately, comes a fierce clinging. The best we can do is > to be aware of exactly what is what in our heart and mind, and to permit > ourselves as best we can to accept whatever unfolds. 55949 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/22/06 2:47:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am glad you will just be there when Sophie has her surgery. I am sure you > can support your family in the best way during those difficult days. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina! ------------------------------------ > Clinging, yes, but also other moments, of kusala citta, helping, caring. > I am preparing something for Phil about detachment from the beginning. It is > the word detachment creating misunderstandings, giving some ideas of being > completely detached. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. Sometimes 'detachment' and 'equanimity' suggest a neutrality that demands lack of compassion and lack of lovingkindness, and that is incorrect. ----------------------------------- No, it is the cetasika alobha, arising with each kusala> > citta. It arises and falls away, and it is only momentary. Listening is true > listening with kusala citta, thus, with detachment, but many moments of > akusala citta in between, when the effort is tiring, when concentration (the > wholesome one) is failing. Listening is really difficult, I realised this > when in Bgkok. Listening is bhavana, but it does not last, arises and falls > away. The true listening and considering with yoniso manasikara needs great > effort but as you also will agree there is nobody there who can cause their > arising, as they are being dependent on conditions, also stemming from the > past. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, great effort is needed, but that isn't all-determining. There are other conditions in play as well. And, yes, there is nobody who does anything, not literally. -------------------------------------------- > More later, when I write to Phil. > Nina. > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55950 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 0:14pm Subject: Re: A question jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > ... Hallo James I thought it possible to take some time before responding: trying to spend less time in DSG. James: Hmmm...I detect some bitterness here. Take it easy. It could very well be that monks were trying to glorify their position by creating this commentary. Joop: I tried to be ironic but knew that failed when I read my own message, don't know exactly why I was agressive to commening monks; personally I have never had problems with them. It had something to do with problems I always have with arrogant people. James: I am more biased toward monasticism but I am trying to keep an open mind. Now, since I realize that I cannot become a monk, I have to make the best of the situation. However, I don't want to fool myself into thinking that I can easily accomplish all that a monastic can accomplish, if that isn't the case at all. Joop: O, I'm sure I'm biased too, not anti-monasticism, bit I can belief a way of living can be decisive in the buddhistic path. My personal wellbeing is not so important to me, another thing I'm thinking about much is "western buddhism" or "global buddhism" in the future and I think monasticism will not play a (big) role in this "western buddhism": we had to find new ways of simple life. BTW, do you know the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra? About a layman- bodhisattva? Funny (mocking the serious Theravada) and deep? www.buddhistinformation.com/vimalakirti_nirdesa_sutra.htm or www.imeditate.com/vimalakirti/vimalakirti01.html Metta Joop 55951 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > With regard to Nina's points: > 1) It is good at all times for there to be detachment, but that is NOT >where worldlings start, and if that were a requirement, then there could be >no starting. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. > The observation that the development of the path requires detachment from the beginning has nothing to do with an idea of detachment at all times. It is simply a reminder that even weak satipatthana is accompanied by detachment, and that attachment is never a factor of the path. > 2) Without a desire for more understanding, there will be no actions >taken to lead to understanding (pariyatti included), and desire will never be >conquered. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. > Of course, desire for understanding is never far away. However, it is the wholesome factors such as realising the importance of understanding dhammas and a 'sense of urgency' regarding its development that will condition the arising of awareness and understanding. The desire for more understanding may be our frequent companion, but it is not our friend ;-)) > 3) The practice is not easy, nor are its ultimate fruits immediate, >but without undertaking it as best we can at whatever stage we are at, even as >infants, it will be impossible. We start where we are, not where we would hope >to be. > Apart from our different ideas about what the 'practice' involves, we are in agreement on this point ;-)) Jon PS In case you did not see my recent reply to your other post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55911 55952 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/22/06 6:14:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > > > With regard to Nina's points: > > 1) It is good at all times for there to be detachment, but that is NOT > >where worldlings start, and if that were a requirement, then there could be > > >no starting. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. > > > > The observation that the development of the path requires detachment > from the beginning has nothing to do with an idea of detachment at all > times. It is simply a reminder that even weak satipatthana is > accompanied by detachment, and that attachment is never a factor of the > path. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It may not be a path factor, but it sure as h-ll is a factor in our make up! ----------------------------------------- > > > 2) Without a desire for more understanding, there will be no actions > >taken to lead to understanding (pariyatti included), and desire will never > be > >conquered. We start where we are, not where we would hope to be. > > > > Of course, desire for understanding is never far away. However, it is > the wholesome factors such as realising the importance of understanding > dhammas and a 'sense of urgency' regarding its development that will > condition the arising of awareness and understanding. The desire for > more understanding may be our frequent companion, but it is not our > friend ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Howard: The English word 'desire' is large in meaning. Tanha is polluted chanda, but not all chanda is polluted. I am very, very grateful for my desire for understanding, and I certainly do consider it my friend. And even defiled desire for something worthwhile is better than no inclination towards the wholesome at all. A prisoner who is utterly without desire for escape is a hopeless prisoner indeed. ----------------------------------------- > > > 3) The practice is not easy, nor are its ultimate fruits immediate, > >but without undertaking it as best we can at whatever stage we are at, even > as > >infants, it will be impossible. We start where we are, not where we would > hope > >to be. > > > > Apart from our different ideas about what the 'practice' involves, we > are in agreement on this point ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Hey! Break out the champagne, Jon. We must drink to that! Oh, no - I can't do that - I have willfully taken it upon myself to observe the training precept of abstention. Now, wait a minute! I couldn't have resolved to do that! I can't resolve to do anything, can I? Surely I'm just imagining that there is such an element of control, right Jon? When the Buddha talked of training precepts, he must have meant something else, right? Well, hey, the great spiritual physician didn't actually prescribe anything, right? It was all descriptive! (I keep on forgetting that!) Uh, oh - what just happened? My apologies! Old man Mara must have possessed me, Jon! I just couldn't resist! ;-))) --------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > PS In case you did not see my recent reply to your other post: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55911 ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Jon. Yes, I did see it, but I decided not to reply, because I knew that you would already know what I had to say, and that there weould be no persuading of either of us by the other! (I guess that hasn't stopped me this time though! LOL!) ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55953 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:17pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 828 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Parikamma nimitta (preparatory sign) is the visual image right in front of the samatha practitioner's eyes. But it has to be the whole picture and not just partial or part of the disc of earth-kasi.na. The mind has to be concentrated on the visual image of the disc and has to know that it is 'pathavii' or 'earth'. There has not to be present any other ideas. When the whole disc is really seen this means the practitioner has to see all parts in the disc, has to see all the details on the disc. This is initiation. But concentration is not that easy to achieve. Because there arise many mental states while doing so. But with practice it is possible that there is no other thoughts but the idea of the whole discs as earth or pathavii. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55954 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:35pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 828 ) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > 'Kamma.t.thaana' > > kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii > > Parikamma nimitta (preparatory sign) is the visual image right in > front of the samatha practitioner's eyes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread (829) seem to be lost on the way. If this happen new 829 has to be re-written. 829 includes *doing* *practice* *a particular time* *a particular place* and their necessity. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55955 From: "Charles" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < htootintnaing@...> wrote: > It is not 'who' that is important but just clarifying. > > Sannaa is a concept. This is true. Sannaa is a reality. This is also > true. > > But 'its reality is ahetuka citta' is not that true. I agree, they are different thing. Thanks Htoo for clarifying :-) 55956 From: "Charles" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities cherry_avium Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > right view is kusala kamma and wrong view is akusala kamma. If right view is taken literally, we can read 'right' books and have view that is right :P but right view have to experienced here and now :-), it have to come from direct experience, I think. For example, there is difference between knowing what is adosa, and being able to develop adosa when dosa appear. Or we may know the whole abhidhamma, but when we are faced with things, what we need is the skill to analyze the things as what they really are. Knowing abhidhamma is view, we can get it by reading books. Wisdom or right view is a skill, we can only get it by developing (bhavana). That is why I think we better talk about how to develop wisdom than talking about what the truth is. But of course different person, different way :] 55957 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:11pm Subject: A new member hantun1 Greetings to all DSG members! I am a new member at DSG. My name is Dr. Han Tun, a Burmese. I am a medical doctor and had worked with World Health Organization from 1975 to 1999. I was introduced to Sarah by Tep, and I applied for membership. My interest in Buddhism is mainly in Suttanta and Abhidhamma. I look forward to fruitful discussions with DSG members. With metta to all, Han Tun 55958 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:15pm Subject: Understanding is Chief ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Understanding is the Fourth Mental Perfection: Understanding penetrates, illuminates and guides right. Concentration is the proximate cause of Understanding. Understanding is the proximate cause of Equanimity. Understanding is the manifestation of Concentration. Only understanding comprehends the meaning & essence. Understanding purifies the other mental perfections: Energy acquires purpose only, when guided by Understanding. Only fortified by Understanding, is determination unshakeable. Only Understanding can patiently tolerate other beings abuse. Only Understanding induce indifference towards gain & loss. Only Understanding can secure both own and others welfare. Just as red sandalwood is reckoned as the best of all scented woods, even & exactly so is the ability to understand reckoned the supreme among all the mental qualities, that are the links to self-awakening, leading to enlightenment. SN V 48-55 Indriya-samyutta And of what kind, friends, is this evaluating ability of Understanding ? In this, friends, the Noble learner is possessed of direct knowledge about the arising and ceasing of all phenomena, which is a Noble insight, a penetrating & ultimate understanding, that gradually realizes and leads to the utter elimination of all Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the Cause of Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the End of Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the Way to end Misery. This, friends, is the discriminating ability of Understanding ... SN V 48-10 Indriya-samyutta Of minor importance, is the loss of family and wealth... Catastrophic among losses is the loss of Understanding. Of minor consequence, is the increase of family and wealth. Supreme among gains is the increase of comprehension... Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that. AN I 14-5 When the Noble friend avoids ignorant persons, but instead cultivates, frequents and honors persons who comprehend, teach and review the effects of profound knowledge, then is the ability to understand refined in these three aspects... When the Noble friend is thus leaving ignorance all behind, there is development of the ability to Understand. When the Noble friend is developing the ability to understand, then ignorance is left all behind. Mutual is this enhancement. Path of Discrimination A learned man who due to his great understanding, despises those of little learning, is like a blind man walking around with a lamp in his high hand... Theragatha 1026 Happy indeed are those possessing nothing... Those who have won Understanding, cling to nothing. While those attached to family, friends & property both possessed & obsessed - are as tied to torture... Udana II 6 What sort of person is released by Understanding? (Panna-Vimutti) Here a person without experiencing all the 8 stages of absorption, anyway eliminates all mental fermentations completely, after having perceived them through insight. Such person is said to be released by Understanding. Designation of Human Types 31 Just as the great Ocean slopes down gradually, deepens gradually, inclines gradually, and not abruptly like an abyss, even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); One do not suddenly penetrate to the highest Understanding... Anguttara Nikaya II 47 Asking Questions logically leads to Understanding: As a bhikkhu walking for alms beg from both low, middle and high folks, if one search & ask both slightly, moderately and highly wise teachers, then the insight of the Buddhas shall be yours. The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 55959 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:23pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 380- Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch23 -Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 continued] The Fetters or Saÿyojanas are another group of akusala dhammas. The saÿyojanas “fetter khandhas (in this life) to khandhas (of the next), or kamma to its fruit(1), or beings to suffering... (Visuddhimagga XXII, 48). Through the fetters we are tied to the cycle of birth and death(2). In the Dhammasangaùi (§1113) we find the following classification of ten fetters(3): sensuous desire (kåma-råga) ill-will (vyåpåda) conceit (måna) wrong view (diììhi) doubt (vicikicchå) clinging to rules and rituals (sílabbata-paråmåsa) clinging to rebirth (bhava-råga) envy (isså) stinginess (macchariya) ignorance (avijjå) In the classifications of the fetters as given above, diììhi has been classified under two aspects: wrong view and wrong practice (clinging to rules and rituals). When there is no right practice, the wrong view of self and other defilements cannot be eradicated and thus we are fettered to the cycle of birth and death. When there is no mindfulness of one reality at a time, the nåma or rúpa appearing now, there is no right practice, one does not develop the eightfold Path. So long as one has not become a sotåpanna there may be wrong practice. Envy and stinginess are akusala dhammas which have only been classified by way of fetters but not in the other groups of defilements. We should find out whether there is envy when someone else receives a token of honour we did not receive. Attachment to self conditions coarse akusala such as jealousy. The sotåpanna who has eradicated the wrong view of self has also eradicated jealousy as well as stinginess. If we develop understanding of nåma and rúpa in daily life, we may begin to see that life is actually one moment of experiencing an object. Sometimes the object is pleasant, sometimes it is unpleasant, this depends entirely on conditions. The experience of pleasant objects and unpleasant objects is conditioned by kamma, by deeds which have been done. If we see life as different phenomena which each arise because of their own conditions, there will be less opportunity for jealousy. When we see how we at times can be overpowered by jealousy and other akusala dhammas we can be reminded to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa in order to eradicate akusala. *** 1) So long as there is the performing of kamma there will be vipåka and thus life goes on. 2) Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part I, Chapter II, 48). 3) The Book of Analysis, Vibhaòga, Chapter 17, §969, has the same classification. ***** (Different Groups of Defilements Part 3 to be continued) Metta, Sarah ====== 55960 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member sarahprocter... Dear Han Tun, A warm welcome to DSG! Thank you for introducing yourself too. It's very interesting that you worked for the WHO for so long. I assume you were based in Geneva for this? Do you still live there? Since SARS, all of us in Hong Kong have been very aware of the good work of WHO and of its medical officers. We greatly appreciate Tep's sutta knowledge here and he's kindly contributed some of your Pali expertise before when he was running his Patisambhida anapanasati discussion threads. So we know you not only have a keen interest in Suttanta and Abhidhamma but a lot of familiarity with the texts as well. I'd also like to draw your attention to the following: 1)If you scroll down to "useful Posts' in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ You will find a selection of past posts from the archives saved by the moderators under different subject headings 2)You can find the entire archives kept here in a format for searching, easy scrolling or downloading: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Thank you again for joining us and I look forward to more discussion later. Metta, Sarah p.s Some of us enjoyed a wonderful trip to Myanmar/Burma a few years ago. You'll meet one or two other Burmese members here like Htoo and Kelvin. ==================== --- han tun wrote: > Greetings to all DSG members! > > I am a new member at DSG. > My name is Dr. Han Tun, a Burmese. > I am a medical doctor and had worked with World Health > Organization from 1975 to 1999. > I was introduced to Sarah by Tep, and I applied for > membership. > My interest in Buddhism is mainly in Suttanta and > Abhidhamma. 55961 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member nilovg Dear Han, welcome here, I am so glad you joined. You made very helpful additions with Pali when we studied with Tep the Patisambhidamagga, anapanasati. Looking forward to your input here, Nina. op 23-02-2006 06:11 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > Greetings to all DSG members! > > I am a new member at DSG. > My name is Dr. Han Tun, a Burmese. 55962 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - nilovg Hi Howard, op 22-02-2006 21:00 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Howard: > Yes, great effort is needed, but that isn't all-determining. There are > other conditions in play as well. And, yes, there is nobody who does > anything, not literally. ------- N: Agreed, understanding of kusala as kusala when it appears and akusala as akusala when it appears. They arise because of the appropriate conditions, as you also know. I think it is helpful to know that detachment is a cetasika, alobha, and we do not need to call it Abhidhamma. It is a mental quality that cannot arise whenever we want it to arise. You said, we start where we are, and that is right. I think this means: here, now. We can learn when there is true metta and true compassion, when we are with other people. We should not confuse them with their near or far ennemies. We do not have to wait to learn more about their characteristics, there are opportunities to do so right now. Calm arises with each kusala citta, and this is a humble beginning: understanding right now whether the citta is kusala or akusala. In this way calm can be developed. If we aim immediately for the highest calm it is not starting from where we are. Nina. 55963 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:58am Subject: Re: A new member htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Greetings to all DSG members! > > I am a new member at DSG. > My name is Dr. Han Tun, a Burmese. > I am a medical doctor and had worked with World Health > Organization from 1975 to 1999. > I was introduced to Sarah by Tep, and I applied for > membership. > My interest in Buddhism is mainly in Suttanta and > Abhidhamma. > > I look forward to fruitful discussions with DSG > members. > > With metta to all, > Han Tun --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear U Han Tun, Welcome to DSG. I have been in DSG for some time. Good friends help their friends through good wish. I introduce you with Tep. Now Tep introduces you with Sarah and you now become a member of DSG. I just remember one of you words. That is why I keep silent with respect to DSG. DSG is the best among many other groups. You will find your way through many a discussion that DSGs are good. There is file section and UsefulPost file. There is A-to-Z heading. It is very helpful. For me as long as my health status and access allow me I will be discussing Dhamma. You know me well. Again thanks for joining DSG and warmly welcome. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 55964 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:16am Subject: Re: Concepts and other irrealities AND Re: Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? jwromeijn Re: Concepts and other irrealities AND Re: Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? 55965 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:19am Subject: Concepts and other irrealities AND Re: Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? jwromeijn This text is better Dear all, The last month I had a discussion here with some (Larry, Jon, Sarah) about "the two truths" or 'the two kind of realities", according Abhidhamma. The conclusion was: seen from the perspective of the absolute truth, all what seems to be (conventional) truth is in fact an illusion. I think this is correct but on this moment my subjective idea is: also the socalled ultimate truth is an illusion, there is no ultimate truth, we need a truth and create/construct it. In the (3 or 4) years I have had more phases inwhich my fascination of Abhidhamma was alternated by a phase in which Abhidhamma-study didn't help at all my spiritual development. I do have that phase now again: on this moment I perceive it (and not only the Buddhoghosa/Sujin interpretation of it) as a scholastic system. My intuition (and I trust it) says: better now meditate more, read the Suttas, and do other kinds of dhamma-study or dharma-study. I will not project my view of this moment to Christine but I still see a similarity. It's not because DSG-participants do give me a problem, it's Abhidhamma that doesn't fit in this phase of my spiritual development. I will participate less in DSG, because the risk is that my messages get to "ironic" and as I mentioned to James yesterday, irony can be a mask. Still some comments on Christine and Howard. Christine: "Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from really knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one to 'know' anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'." ---------------------------------------- Howard: "Well, it's more than just parroting I think. I do think that there is a love of Dhamma, though I think the Dhamma is misperceived. I think that there is a strong belief in the theory, but there is a conflating of intellectual understanding with true understanding. Underlying it all, I think, are the following beliefs: 1) The Dhamma in its truest form is to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin. The suttas are stories for the masses. There is Dhamma to found therein, but not without the help of the true sources as mentioned above. 2) Patipatti is indistinguishable from pariyatti, and pariyatti consists overwhelmingly of the studying of "the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin," to quote from item # 1 above. 3) Since reality is reality there is no need to do anything special to enable ourselves to see it as it is, and, in any case, nothing *can* be done to cultivate the mind. "It all depends on conditions," and there is nothing ever to be done to cultivate those conditions. Of course, this makes the whole matter independent of any and all intentional action (kamma), and, thus, it is, in that exact sense, a matter of pure chance. (This last sentence is my analysis. It isn't the stated position of the "nothing can be done" folks.)" I recognize the situation of Christine and agree with most of Howard. Only one thing can be added to it: (4) A deep obsessive "angst" of atta-belief. Again and again one is afraid that oneself or the other has that dangerous atta-belief. My analysis of that point is: yes, "anatta" is true but stressing is so much is a result of fighting ones strong ego; it's a little bit pathological in the technical sense of that word. (I think I more have a vague ego, my point is more my strong ontological need, I'm more interested in anicca than in anatta for that reason.) Metta Joop 55966 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Howard & all, I wasn’t going to reply, but as Howard has joined in too, I’d like to add a few comments as well: --- Christine Forsyth wrote: >But there was also a strong insistence that one > should *begin* with a clear realisation or understanding of the > anatta-ness of all phenomena. No `gradual' increase in > understanding - no concepts - straight to double-barrelled > Paramattha dhammas(and all in Pali please .. we're DSG-ers!!) .... S: I think the point being stressed was that there is a right and wrong path, with right and wrong path factors. When we have nibbana as our aim (as I think you expressed) or more tranquility or good results of one kind or other for ourselves, is this the right or the wrong path? For it to be the right path, there has to be a beginning of understanding of present dhammas as dhammas from the beginning. If there isn’t such a beginning to understand namas and rupas appearing now (short-term goal if you like), how will there ever be the long-term goal of nibbana? How will there ever be the giving up of the idea of a self? For myself, I never think about the long-term goal unless someone here asks about it. This is far more unrealistic for me than beginning to understand dhammas as just dhammas as they appear now. (Btw, I didn’t hear K.Sujin or anyone else give ‘a strong insistence that one should *begin* with a clear realization or understanding of the anatta-ness of all phenomena’, with no ‘gradual increase’. Quite the opposite, I’d say. The gradual path was stressed a lot.) .... > Howard's (rather famous :-)description of some of the views of the > DSG and BKK group as seeming to be `helpless and hopeless' echoed in > my mind during this stay. (I even brought the term up in one of the > recorded discussions.) .... S: :-) It’s famous, Howard! I have to say that I understand such thoughts/feelings arising when one has the idea of trying hard and not getting the desired results. However, the more one really appreciates dhammas are conditioned and not subject to one’s will, the less helplessness or hopelessness. Quite the opposite. Life becomes easier and easier without such strong attachments or expectations of any results. .... > During these discussions, there was an alluding to the 'fact'that > any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, > constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even > dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least > one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. .... S: The point was or is that when there is any idea of a self being able to do anything or control anything or of existing in anyway, it is a delusion, it is sakkaaya di.t.thi. When we refer to samatha or vipassana meditation, we can begin to know for ourselves whether there is any understanding of the wholesome states involved or whether it is again the strong wish for results for oneself when one has an idea of practice or meditation. .... > It seems to me that it is not possible for all the suttas which > mention these practices to be in some sort of code where they > don't "really" mean what they say. It seems to me that there is not > a complete lack of control … even DSG-ers choose to read or go to > hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of > any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". .... S: What do you understand by ‘practice in accordance with the Dhamma’? I think you agreed above that there are only momentary dhammas arising at any time to be known. Can they be controlled in anyway by any self? .... > Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from really > knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly > talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no > persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one to 'know' > anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an > experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'. .... S: :-) I don’t want to speak for others or what they’ve said, but we can say that understanding has to begin now and develop. If there isn’t a beginning of understanding of nama or rupa now and the distinction between them, such understanding will never grow or become powerful. I don’t believe that any of our friends would confidently discuss paramattha dhammas as you describe just as a ‘parroting’. What would be the point? They could be describing scientific theories or meditation techniques instead. They talk about paramattha dhammas because there is enough confidence built on understanding (however much or little that may be) which knows there is no other way, no alternative but to begin now and be aware of the present dhamma appearing, whether that be seeing, visible object, thinking or any other dhamma. It’s quite apparent that awareness of seeing or visible object now is quite different from thinking about awareness of these. In simple English, ‘it works’ or dhammas can be known, just as the Buddha described. What is it they say in Zen about ‘beginner mind’? I think it’s very true that the more one appreciates of the dhamma, the more one appreciates what a beginner one is. When I hear others express how little is really known, I rejoice in the wise reflections at such a time. If someone says they are 'parroting', I take it as an indication of modesty. I don't think it's helpful to suggest anyone (other than ourselves) is 'parroting' dhamma, when we have no idea, but I know it's common:-). ..... > There also was on occasions an uncomfortable amount of dosa in the > discussions, intolerance and blunt remarks by one or two towards > others present who didn't follow the DSG [lack of] practice, and who > were meditators. .... S: Firstly I’m not sure what the ‘DSG (lack of) practice’ is – there are a lot of members here with a range of ideas, understandings and practices. I think it’s healthy to hear and respect other ideas within the given parameters of the list. Secondly, my impression of the discussions was somewhat different. Everyone was trying to assist each other in a very friendly way for the most part, I thought. Perhaps I missed something? In any case, just like here, I think it’s more useful to look at our own expectations and ‘tumult’ or ‘angst’ we may feel at times than to dwell on others’ dosa. Appreciating how common lobha and dosa are, I think we can sympathise all the more with any agitations or distress others may be feeling too. None of us are beyond such common kilesa (defilements). .... > Well ... you asked ... .... S: I think it’s good to discuss these issues further. I was also glad to read Howard’s further comments and look forward to any more either of you (or anyone else) has. Thanks again for your honest feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s let us know how your mother does. I sympathise with her wrist injury and I know Nina will too. ======================================= 55967 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card and update from Bangkok sarahprocter... Hi Charles G, --- Charles wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for asking my question :D > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott < > sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: > > She then suggested that the next question is 'Understanding of > What?'. > > Of Dukkha, I think. It is because we do not understand what is > dukkha, so we bind ourselves with whatever is dukkha, and so we get > suffering. .... S: I didn't have a chance to go back to her with your answer, but I think the next question would be 'what do you understand by dukkha?' and also 'dukkha of what?'. In other words, how can Dukkha be known? .... > I remember it is said (somewhere :D) > > Dukkha is to be understood, > The cause of dukkha is to be eliminated, > The ending of dukkha is to be realized, > The Path is to be practiced. .... S: Yes. So what is Dukkha here that is to be understood? .... Good to read all your other discussions and threads. I'm glad to see you're encouraging Mike to write some of his helpful and well-considered posts too:-). Thanks a lot for all these contributions and all your good-humoured reflections. Metta, Sarah ======= 55968 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for welcoming me. My career with WHO was (1) Assistant WHO Representative to Burma (1975-1978); WHO Team Leader and then WHO Representative to Nepal (1978-1984); and (3) WHO Liaison Officer with UN-ESCAP, Thailand (1984-1999). I am now staying in Thailand. Thank you very much for your kind words about WHO. I could help Tep with Pali words only because I have Burmese and English Translations of Suttas, original Pali text of Suttas in Burmese script, and English and Burmese Pali Dictionaries. Without these books I will be nothing. Even with these books, if you show me a paragraph in Pali which is not taken from any specific sutta I will not know head or tail of it. So my Pali knowledge is quite mediocre. But I will try my best in the discussions. I am also grateful to you for recommending to me the documents to study. I will do that slowly. After cataract operation of both eyes and the possibility of age-related macula degeneration looming with the presence of “drusens” on both retinas, I cannot work on my computer for long periods. I know Htoo very well. I hope I will know Kelvin also in due course of time. Once again, I thank you very much for your warm welcome. With metta and my warmest personal regards, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han Tun, > > A warm welcome to DSG! Thank you for introducing > yourself too. > It's very interesting that you worked for the WHO > for so long. <...> 55969 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for warmly welcoming me. I will try my best to be useful during the discussions. I love Abhidhamma. I have studied “The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma” by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, “A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” by Mahathera Narada and revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi, and Dhamma Threads by U Htoo Naing. Now that I have joined DSG, I will also have to study your works. Therefore, for the past two hours I was busy downloading your two books, “Abhidhamma in Daily Life” and “Buddhist Outlook on Daily Life”. The downloading was not so easy, because I have to do chapter by chapter, and the Abhidhamma in Daily Life is also a very thick book, the credit going to your hard work. I look forward to useful discussions. With metta and warmest personal regards, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > welcome here, I am so glad you joined. You made very > helpful additions with > Pali when we studied with Tep the Patisambhidamagga, > anapanasati. <...> 55970 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A new member hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing, Thank you very much for welcoming me. I have learnt a lot of things from you and I hope to continue learning from you in this group. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun --- htootintnaing wrote: <...> > Dear U Han Tun, > > Welcome to DSG. I have been in DSG for some time. > Good friends help > their friends through good wish. <...> 55971 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... matheesha333 Hi Howard, Sarah, H: What the (pabbhassara) sutta says is eminently clear to me. It says that > defilements are *adventitious, inessential. It asserts that the mind is luminous > both when undefiled and when defiled. That is crystal clear to me. M: I agree with this. The mind is luminous as compared to nibbana. Consciousness is luminosity. Nibbana is the fading away of that luminoisty. No more arising and passing away discernable in the 'darkness' where there is 'no sun and no moon'. metta Matheesha 55972 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member upasaka_howard Hi, Han - In a message dated 2/23/06 1:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, hantun1@... writes: > Greetings to all DSG members! > > I am a new member at DSG. > My name is Dr. Han Tun, a Burmese. > I am a medical doctor and had worked with World Health > Organization from 1975 to 1999. > I was introduced to Sarah by Tep, and I applied for > membership. > My interest in Buddhism is mainly in Suttanta and > Abhidhamma. > > I look forward to fruitful discussions with DSG > members. > > With metta to all, > Han Tun > > > ======================== Han! I'm so happy to see you here! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55973 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 2/23/06 7:51:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, Sarah, > > H: What the (pabbhassara) sutta says is eminently clear to me. It says > that > >defilements are *adventitious, inessential. It asserts that the mind > is luminous > >both when undefiled and when defiled. That is crystal clear to me. > > M: I agree with this. The mind is luminous as compared to nibbana. > Consciousness is luminosity. Nibbana is the fading away of that > luminoisty. No more arising and passing away discernable in > the 'darkness' where there is 'no sun and no moon'. > > metta > > Matheesha > ========================== With regard to "Nibbana is the fading away of that luminosity," I'm afraid I disagree. Please read the suttas (I can't recall references) that speak of vi~n~nana anidassanam, unmanifestive consciousness, that is radiant all around! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 55974 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? jonoabb Hi Chris Christine Forsyth wrote: >... There was the >usual insistence of seeing that `all there is' is just this moment, >and then again, just this moment, and then again .. which I don't >disagree with. But there was also a strong insistence that one >should *begin* with a clear realisation or understanding of the >anatta-ness of all phenomena. No `gradual' increase in >understanding - no concepts - straight to double-barrelled >Paramattha dhammas(and all in Pali please .. we're DSG-ers!!) > > This is interesting. The emphasis as I recall it was on knowing nama as nama and rupa as rupa, as a necessary beginning step, before there could be the understanding of the characteristics of individual dhammas. I am pretty sure there was no mention of realising the anatta-ness of all phenomena in connection with the beginning of the development of the path. Unless we were at different discussions ;-)) >During these discussions, there was an alluding to the 'fact'that >any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, >constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even >dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least >one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. > > Well in a discussion of this kind there will be many views put forward, and I notice you are not saying that this was said by A Sujin. However, putting aside who may have said what, the question you raise is whether the teaching on, say, guarding the sense-doors is to be taken as: (a) an exhortation to undertake a form of practice that involves moments of akusala (as any formal practice must), or (b) a reference to actual moments of kusala awareness If (b) is correct, then I think it is fair to say that one who undertakes the kind of 'practice' at (a) in the mistaken belief that it is the teaching of the Buddha is developing the wrong path. >It seems to me that it is not possible for all the suttas which >mention these practices to be in some sort of code where they >don't "really" mean what they say. > Yes, you have made this point before. If I recall correctly, the last time you raised if I asked you to give a reference or two from the suttas to indicate what you have in mind. >It seems to me that there is not >a complete lack of control … even DSG-ers choose to read or go to >hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of >any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". > > Well no-one is saying that individuals completely lack control over their actions in the conventional sense. What the texts say is that dhammas are not subject to mastery. What is your view on this? But even taking the conventional sense, we can see, if we stop to think about it, that the seeming control we do exercise is a far from complete one, because things often don't turn out the way we would like them to. The rest of your message gets a little personal, so I think I'll pass on any further comment, except to say that the important thing is always the teaching and not the personalities involved. While it may at times be difficult to separate the two, if we don't then our evaluation of what is being said will be coloured. Jon >Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from really >knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly >talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no >persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one to 'know' >anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an >experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'. > >There also was on occasions an uncomfortable amount of dosa in the >discussions, intolerance and blunt remarks by one or two towards >others present who didn't follow the DSG [lack of] practice, and who >were meditators. > >Well ... you asked ... > >Metta >Chris >---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > 55975 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... matheesha333 Hi Howard, H: With regard to "Nibbana is the fading away of that luminosity," I'm > afraid I disagree. Please read the suttas (I can't recall references) that speak > of vi~n~nana anidassanam, unmanifestive consciousness, that is radiant all > around! M:) if there is consciousness (vinnana) which is part of the 5 aggregates, subject to arising and passing away, what nibbana is there? Where has dukkha ended? metta Matheesha 55976 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - Audio discussion between Erik & A.Suji... upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 2/23/06 11:03:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > H: With regard to "Nibbana is the fading away of that luminosity," I'm > >afraid I disagree. Please read the suttas (I can't recall references) > that speak > >of vi~n~nana anidassanam, unmanifestive consciousness, that is > radiant all > >around! > > > M:) if there is consciousness (vinnana) which is part of the 5 > aggregates, subject to arising and passing away, what nibbana is there? > Where has dukkha ended? > > metta > > Matheesha > ======================== There is the following (found on one web site): _______________ In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is the consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is stated in the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabbam" - Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses and it is immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with elements cease, leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). -------------------------- Also, from the Kevatta Sutta, there is the following: _____________________________________________ 'Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? "'And the answer to that is:Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words. -------------------------------------------------------- Please note the "luminous all around." Aside from the foregoing, there is no way that I conceive of nibbana as a dark sleep. Instead it is a state of the utmost peaceful and pristine clarity. The goal is *awakening*. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 55977 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:50am Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - philofillet Hi Nina and all Welcome back, Nina. We are having a nice time in Canada. My family are well, and my mother`s condition isn't all that bad. Anyways, it's all a story, it really and truly is. I think quite a bit of the first time I met Rob K in Tokyo and I asked him if coming from his relatively rural area (sorry Kumamoto people!) to Tokyo was a big difference and he said it's all the same wherever he is. I found that hard to believe at the time, but I'm getting closer to understanding it. Dhammas are dhammas. Canada is a concept. Family is a concept. This horrible weather that has Naomi in a bit of a funk is a concept. Heat, visible object, dosa, karuna. Dhammas are dhammas, with characteristics of their own, not-self, belonging to no one. And understanding that liberates Phil for being more present, more appreciative of family, homeland, mother and all the other concepts. I really do find Dhamma so helpful. I don't think there are any moments of sati of a deep level (ie satipatthana) but even appreciating the Buddha's teaching at a shallow intellectual level is so liberating, so un-burndening that I don't find myself wanting or expecting anything more from it! > I am preparing something for Phil about detachment from the beginning. It is > the word detachment creating misunderstandings, giving some ideas of being > completely detached. No, it is the cetasika alobha, arising with each kusala > citta. It arises and falls away, and it is only momentary. I see. Yes, another example of why we should use Pali words as often as possible to make things clearer. I look forward to reading more on this. Please send it to my off-list address as well, in case I miss it. Hello to all. Phil Listening is true > listening with kusala citta, thus, with detachment, but many moments of > akusala citta in between, when the effort is tiring, when concentration (the > wholesome one) is failing. Listening is really difficult, I realised this > when in Bgkok. Listening is bhavana, but it does not last, arises and falls > away. The true listening and considering with yoniso manasikara needs great > effort but as you also will agree there is nobody there who can cause their > arising, as they are being dependent on conditions, also stemming from the > past. > More later, when I write to Phil. > Nina. > op 22-02-2006 15:21 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > > We will be with her for the first time since her birth in a little > > under a month. We're going to be there from March 20 through April 3. > > Unfortunately, on March 23 she will have her open-heart surgery performed to > > repair the > > large whole and to do valve repair. To say that we are both hopeful and also > > terribly worried would be an understatement. We all love her enormously > > already, > > and with that, unfortunately, comes a fierce clinging. The best we can do is > > to be aware of exactly what is what in our heart and mind, and to permit > > ourselves as best we can to accept whatever unfolds. > 55978 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member nilovg Dear Han, I am glad you are here. Looking forward to discuss any points regarding Abh. in D.L. and Buddhism in D.L. You will see that Larry and I are doing a Visuddhimagga study project. The Pali Tiika of Visuddhimagga is not easy, there is no English translation. Therefore I only give summaries, I could not translate line by line, I would never in my life finish. Any addition from your Burmese translation will be appreciated. That is, if you have time. Best wishes, Nina. op 23-02-2006 11:36 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > Now that I have joined DSG, I will also have to study > your works. Therefore, for the past two hours I was > busy downloading your two books, “Abhidhamma in Daily > Life” and “Buddhist Outlook on Daily Life”. 55979 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? nilovg Hi Christine, op 23-02-2006 15:28 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: Quotes from Christine: During these discussions, there was an alluding to the 'fact'that >> any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, >> constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even >> dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least >> one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. ------- N: What is more: even when listening and considering, discussing satipatthana, we were reminded that there is always a subtle self lurking around the corner (these are my own words). In fact, I was also hit on the head when asking a question, it is me, me, me, wanting to make progress. I was grateful, because if we had not Kh. Sujin who reminds us we could not detect it. Whatever we do, there is often sakkaaya ditthi, but we do not realize this! We are not always 'easy to talk to' to use the sutta words, thus, easy to be admonished. One has to have the right disposition to appreciate being hit on the head. One day one is openminded and ready to listen, another day one is not. Bad feelings we have is our own dosa. Do not be put off, after a while you may feel differently. It all depends on the citta at a particular moment how we receive what we hear. Nina. 55980 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities mlnease Hi Charles, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:05 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Concept and realities > Hi Mike, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: >> right view is kusala kamma and wrong view is akusala kamma. > > If right view is taken literally, we can read 'right' books and have > view that is right :P but right view have to experienced here and now > :-), it have to come from direct experience, I think. I think that an opinion or concept can be correct, and that this can be conditioned (in part) by a past moment of right view. Every moment of right view occurs in a moment of direct experience--but it is kamma, and has sabhaava, as I understand it. The opinion or concept--however correct--has no sabhaava and for that reason can't be said to be dhamma. > For example, there is difference between knowing what is adosa, and > being able to develop adosa when dosa appear. Or we may know the > whole abhidhamma, but when we are faced with things, what we need is > the skill to analyze the things as what they really are. I'm glad you brought up sammuti sacca earlier because I think this is a good example. In sammuti sacca, I analyze--in paramattha sacca, pa~n~naa understands. Liberating understanding (pa.tivedha) must be conditioned both by bhaavanaa (pa.tipatti) and by having heard the Dhamma (pariyatti). > Knowing abhidhamma is view, we can get it by reading books. > Wisdom or right view is a skill, we can only get it by developing > (bhavana). Bhaavanaa can refer either to tranquility or to insight or to both. The former is kusala kamma and can be compatible with the goal; the latter is kusala kamma and is essential to the goal. The kusala kamma of samatha bhaavanaa existed long before the Bodhisatta was born and exists entirely outside the saasana (as well as within it of course). The kusala kamma of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa bhaavanaa must, for anyone but a Buddha, be conditioned by having heard and understood the Buddhadhamma, as I understand it. > That is why I think we better talk about how to develop wisdom than > talking about what the truth is. Agreed, up to a point--after all, the Buddha did define his teaching as 'truths', the fourth of which is the development of liberating wisdom. Talking about those truths is a very good thing, in my opinion. "When, for one who speaks of what has been heard...what has been sensed...what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities increase and skillful mental qualities decrease, then that sort of thing should not be spoken about. But when, for one who speaks of what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities decrease and skillful mental qualities increase, then that sort of thing should be spoken about." Anguttara Nikaya IV.183 Suta Sutta On What is Heard > But of course different person, different way :] Of course! Cheers, mike 55981 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member hantun1 Dear Howard, Thank you very much. The pleasure of seeing each other is indeed mutual and contagious! I enjoy and value your messages which are always serious and thought-provoking. With metta and highest regards, Han --- upasaka@... wrote: > ======================== > Han! I'm so happy to see you here! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > <...> 55982 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:35pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 829 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Preparatory sign or parikamma nimitta arises when all the details are seen as a whole and the mind is totally in the disc and nowhere else. The disc here is the circular disc of prepared earth. Arising of this preparatory sign does not mean anything yet. Because there may or may not arise bhaavanaa or cultivation when this sign arises. But this sign has to be mature to become another sign called uggaha nimitta or mental image or learning sign. Here both objects are pannatti. Preparatory sign and learning sign are both names, concepts, pannatti even though the initial ruupa seen by the eyes is vanno or colour (shape, form). While looking at the disc there may arise other cittas that do not take the object of signs arise from the original object kasi.na disc. Not to happen this 'exerting mind' put the mind at the centre of the kasi.na disc. This exerting mind is 'vitakka' or 'initial application'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55983 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:37pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 830 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Initial application or vitakka is so powerful that it can send citta to many different areas. Because of this citta has to go to different object. While practising samatha this vitakka may send citta to sensuous zone. As soon as this happen the citta is already dirty. This is because of kaama-vitakka. That is thinking on sensuous things. Sensuous things are 'form' 'sound' 'smell' 'taste' 'touch' and 'thought related to these'. If the mind is there on the disc and it is clear of any of dirt then it is a good vitakka. Vitakka has the power of thinking. Let us see our daily examples. A man sits by the bank of a river. He can see the water in the river. First he thinks 'this water is flowing'. Then he thinks 'this flow is movement'. 'This movement brings along all the deposits while some sink down and some are moving along with the flow'. Initially he just sees what is right in front of him. But as his mind dictates he thinks in a series of flow from one idea to another. This flow is pushed by vitakka or thinking or initial application. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55984 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:04pm Subject: Re: 5th anniversary of DSG - htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi Nina and all I see. Yes, another example of why we should use Pali words as often as possible to make things clearer. I look forward to reading more on this. Please send it to my off-list address as well, in case I miss it. Hello to all. Phil --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Phil, Hello ... I like your message to Nina and to the group. Yes. Dhamma is Dhamma wherever we are and whenever we are. Rural and urban do not mean anything as they are concept. When even at first glance Dhamma makes cool how cool will it be if nibbaana is touched. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55985 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:06pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 831 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii We are now at the practical aspect of Dhamma practition. More than 800 posts on Dhamma Thread explain many different aspect of Dhamma. These repeated explanations are done so that right understanding unknowingly encroaches. This right understanding is not yet sammaa- ditthi. The 'right understanding' here refers to truthfulness and validity of dhamma. Practical aspect? As I explained in a few previous posts the preparation does need such as *a particular place*, *a particular time*, and *particular preparatory things*. Without these learners cannot achieve 'the taste of samatha' or 'the taste of tranquility.' There are only a few exceptions that some people do not need any particular preparations, particular time and particular place. Otherwise it is the best to start with *chosen place* and *chosen time*. If not chosen, 'samatha bhaavanaa' will be disturbed and even parikamma bhaavanaa will not arise at all. There are three bhaavanaa or three stages of cultivation or three maturities of cultivation. The initial one is preparatory cultivation or parikamma bhaavanaa. As become mature this bhaavanaa changes into upacaara bhaavanaa or 'proximate cultivation'. Finally bhaavana is shot up to the highest called 'appanaa bhaavanaa' or 'portal cultivation'. I use it as 'portal'. Because this 'appanaa bhaavanaa' is the portal to higher realm or higher sphere or higher bhuumi of citta known as ruupaavacara-citta, which is ruupa-jhaana citta. These three stages of cultivation are mental activities. That is they are cittas doing their job. All bhaavanaa are kusala cittas, no doubt. All bhaavanaa are wholesome consciousness and they all are meritable states of mind. Here all three bhaavanaa take the object pannatti. That is the idea of sign or the concept of sign or nimitta pannatti. All these three bhaavanaa here in pathavii-kasi.na are cittas and they take the object pannatti that is nimitta pannatti. These nimitta pannatti or concepts are parikamma-nimitta, uggaha nimitta, and pa.tibhaaga nimitta. If these cittas (bhaavanaa cittas) are taking the concepts (pannatti) why are they kusala cittas? That is they are taking the idea such as 1. earth, 2. fire, 3. water, 4. wind, 5. blue (brown/dark), 6. yellow, 7. red, 8. white, 9. light, 10. space. Why are they kusala? This matter will become clearer as progress. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55986 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:29pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 832 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Kamma.t.thaana' kamma.t.thaana/Samatha/Kasi.na/Pathavii Kasi.na kamma.t.thaanas are taking the idea such as 1. earth, 2. fire, 3. water, 4. wind, 5. blue (brown/dark), 6. yellow, 7. red, 8. white, 9. light, 10. space as their object. Object is sign, which is pannatti or concept. Object or aaramma.na here is pannatti. These aaramma.nas are taken by kusala-cittas. Kusala-cittas may be kaama-kusala cittas or ruupa- kusala cittas depending on what kind of bhaavanaa they are doing. If appanaa bhaavana then cittas are ruupa-kusala cittas. If parikamma-bhaavanaa and upacaara-bhaavanaa then kusalas are kaama- kusala. They are kaama kusala because they are still in the realm of sensuous sphere. Why are they kusala? Are they kusala if they are taking the objects that are just ideas or concepts or pannatti? They are kusala. Because on the way up to ruupa-jhaana they fight against their enemies. They can fight and defeat their enemies that are akusalas. Only kusala can fight akusala. Kiriya do not have to fight any dhamma. Vipaaka do not have to fight any dhamma. Only kusala fight akusala dhamma. We have to be careful that 'akusala can also fight kusala dhamma'. And akusala can defeat kusala at any given time. Even in the middle of kusalas akusala cittas may arise if there are conditions. So on the way up these three bhaavanaa cittas have to fight akusala dhamma. So they all are kusala dhamma. Unlike other kusala dhamma like daana kusala and siila kusala, bhaavanaa kusala is ALWAYS ALWAYS accompanied by PA~N~NAA. So why kusala while looking at 'white disc' 'red disc' 'brown disc' 'yellow disc' 'earth disc' 'fire disc' 'water disc' 'wind disc' 'light disc' and 'disc of space'? It is because of PA~N~NAA. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 55987 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:32pm Subject: Vism.XVII,58 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XVII [III. DETAILED EXPOSITION] [(i) Ignorance] 58. According to the Suttanta method 'ignorance' is unknowing about the four instances beginning with suffering. According to the Abhidhamma method it is unknowing about the eight instances [that is to say, the above-mentioned four] together with [the four] beginning with the past; for this is said: 'Herein, what is ignorance? It is unknowing about suffering, [unknowing about the origin of suffering, unknowing about the cessation of suffering, unknowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering], unknowing about the past, unknowing about the future, unknowing about the past and future, unknowing about specific conditionality and conditionally-arisen states' (cf. Dhs. 1162). ********************** 58. aya.m taavettha sa"nkhepakathaa. avijjaapaccayaasa"nkhaarapadakathaa aya.m pana vitthaaranayo -- avijjaati suttantapariyaayena dukkhaadiisu catuusu .thaanesu a~n~naa.na.m, abhidhammapariyaayena pubbantaadiihi saddhi.m a.t.thasu. vutta~nheta.m ``tattha katamaa avijjaa, dukkhe a~n~naa.na.m...pe0... dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya a~n~naa.na.m, pubbante a~n~naa.na.m, aparante, pubbantaaparante, idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppannesu dhammesu a~n~naana''nti (dha0 sa0 1106). 55988 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:34pm Subject: Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Christine), I think you must have filed my previous message along with Jon's under "You would already know what I had to say." This current message probably belongs in the same bin :-) but, rightly or wrongly, I feel compelled to rehash the usual arguments. Please overlook any apparent personal criticisms. Put them down to a poor command of the written word. :-) ----------- <. . .> Chistine: > > There was the > usual insistence of seeing that `all there is' is just this moment, > and then again, just this moment, and then again .. which I don't > disagree with. > ......... Howard: > Nor do I, at all. In fact, I rather like it! ----------- To agree with it means, in my opinion, to be bowled over by it. If there really are only dhammas - no conventional realities at all - then that must be, to say the least, a life-changing realisation. ------------------------ C: > > But there was also a strong insistence that one > > should *begin* with a clear realisation or understanding of the > anatta-ness of all phenomena. No `gradual' increase in > understanding - no concepts - straight to double-barrelled > Paramattha dhammas(and all in Pali please .. we're DSG-ers!!) ....... Howard: > Well, I just don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but that is just pretense. ---------------------------------------- I am not familiar with the "no gradual increase" point of view, but "understanding the complete anattaness of all phenomena" seems unarguable to me. If we believe that the Dhamma admits any possibility of atta (self) then surely we have not even begun to understand. What is so controversial about that? --------------- H: > (As to the Pali, well ... ;-)) --------------- Well what? I don't get the joke. I imagine familiarity with Pali is an unavoidable by-product of years and decades of Dhamma study. I see no hint of anything untoward. --------------------- H: > On the other hand, to begin with a clear intellectual understanding that our ordinary perception is faulty --------------------- In what way is that "on the other hand?" Aren't you saying the same thing that Christine took exception to? How can you say it is realistic that we "begin with a clear intellectual understanding that our perception is faulty," and yet say it is "not even close to realistic" that we "we begin with a clear understanding of the anatta- ness of all phenomena?" ------------------------------ H: > and that it *is* possible to see *truly*, ------------------------------ I am sure we all say it is possible to see truly - provided that the conditions for seeing truly have been put in place. ------------------------------------------ H: > and to constantly attempt to see what arises as it really is, is, I think, all to the good. ------------------------------------------ Hmmm, this is where we differ. To attempt to see truly when the conditions for seeing truly have not been put in place is, I would say, symptomatic of untrue seeing. It would be better (as you said earlier) "to begin with a clear intellectual understanding that our perception is faulty." ------------- C: > > Howard's (rather famous :-)description of some of the views of the > DSG and BKK group as seeming to be `helpless and hopeless' echoed in > my mind during this stay. (I even brought the term up in one of the > recorded discussions.) ........... Howard: > I repeatedly say that with regard to statements implying that there is no volitional cultivation to be done, -------------------------------------- All bhavana is volitional in the sense that panna is accompanied by cetana. I think you mean volitional in the commonly accepted sense. That is, I think you are saying vipassana arises as the result of willpower. It doesn't - nor does any other dhamma. ----------- H: > as if the dhammic realities underlying such conventional volition as involved in activities such as right effort were null and void. ----------- Just to be clear on this; you are talking about conventional right effort, aren't you? You are not saying that right effort, the Path Factor, is a conventional activity. To the best of my knowledge, no one has said the realities underlying conventional right effort were null and void. The realities involved over any measurable period of time are many and varied. Each of them arises by conditions and is devoid of a controlling self. If there is belief in control over dhammas then the underlying realities include wrong view. ------------------ H: > However, urging that one pay attention to whatever rises (and ceases) in the moment actually tends in the opposite direction, I think, in encouraging willful (and wholesome) mental actvity. ------------------ Sorry if I digress, but how is it possible to do such a thing? I have asked Htoo the same question but he has failed to answer; perhaps you will. When we are walking, you say we should pay attention to walking. But when we are walking we are also, for example, feeling the breeze on our skin: why are we to ignore that and pay attention only to walking? Apart from feeling the breeze, there are a thousand (perhaps a million) conventional things going on at any one time. (There are cars and people passing by; progress being made towards our destination and away from our point of departure; the breath going in and out, feelings of clothing on the skin - the list goes on and on.) But you want us to single out just one of those concepts for special attention. To do that would be to ignore all the others, and so conventional vipassana-meditation, it seems to me, is primarily a practice of heedlessness. ----------------- C: > > During these discussions, there was an alluding to the 'fact'that > any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, > constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even > dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least > one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. ........... Howard: > Well, IMO that is most unfortunate - and here I do see 'helpless and hopeless' on the horizon! I think an attitude such as this is dreadfully harmful both to the one who has that attitude and to the listeners to whom s/he advocates it. Here is where the harm resides. Harm doesn't lie in adopting a theory of momentary mindstates and ultimate realities that have own being [And that's atta, folks!!] anywhere nearly as much as in a view that there are no useful actions (kamma) to engage in to lead "one" towards awakening and liberation. To take the fact that there is no "I" to do anything at all as basis for a view that there is nothing at all to be done, especially with regard to attaining a true realization of that fact of impersonality, is the quintessence of irony. --------------------------------------------- To accuse anyone on DSG of promoting helplessness and despair would be very unfair. The irony, if there is any, is that those who are most often accused of such a thing are those who have acquired the most knowledge of the written Dhamma. What motivates them? I doubt it is helplessness and despair. And, BTW, sabhava - a central tenet of Theravada Buddhism - is not atta, no matter how many times you say it is. :-) -------------------------------------------- C: > > It seems to me that it is not possible for all the suttas which > mention these practices to be in some sort of code where they > don't "really" mean what they say. > ........ Howard: > Yes, indeed, Chris! One has to wonder at times whatever happened to common sense. -------------------------------------------- Common sense is good, but on its own it is not vipassana. In the absence of the Buddha's Dhamma, "samatha or vipassana meditation, constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even dana and sila" would, by all commonsense, refer to conventional activities. However, the Buddha tells that, ultimately, there are only conditioned dhammas: the terms Christine has listed are ultimately meaningful only in so far as they refer to fleeting, selfless, paramattha dhammas. When that has been intellectually accepted common sense will no longer suggest the Buddha taught a conventional practice. ----------- C: > > It seems to me that there is not > a complete lack of control … even > DSG-ers choose to read or go to > hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of > any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". ............ Howard: > Of course! ------------------------------------------- Dhammas arise by conditions, not by control. If DSG'ers read or discuss Dhamma with desire for results, or, worse still, with belief in control over dhammas, then the prevailing conditions are akusala and no *real* Dhamma-study is being done. -------------- C: > > Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from really > knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly > talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no > persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one to 'know' > anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an > experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'. ........ Howard: > Well, it's more than just parroting I think. I do think that there is a love of Dhamma, though I think the Dhamma is misperceived. --------------- It's nice of you to say so, but if, as you suggest, they love a misperceived Dhamma they cannot love the true Dhamma. --------------------------- H: > I think that there is a strong belief in the theory, but there is a conflating of intellectual understanding with true understanding. Underlying it all, I think, are the following beliefs: --------------------------- To the best of my knowledge the list that follows is not of beliefs declared by anyone on DSG. Many of them have been expressly, and repeatedly, disavowed. ------------------- H: > 1) The Dhamma in its truest form is to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin. -------------------- There is only one Dhamma. The same one-Dhamma is presented in different ways in different parts of the Canon. ---------------------------- H: > The suttas are stories for the masses. ---------------------------- Abhidhamma (in the suttas and in the Abhidhamma-pitaka) is the kindergarten stage. When there is a good grasp of Abhidhamma, then (and only then) suttas presented in conventional terminology can be correctly understood. ------------------------------------------ H: > There is Dhamma to found therein, but not without the help of the true sources as mentioned above. ------------------------------------------ Perhaps I have missed your point. I am not sure of how suttas are alleged to be "stories for the masses?" Unless, by "the masses" you mean people who are not really interested in the intended meaning, but who want only to read their preconceived notions into the Dhamma. I can see how those people would prefer to interpret suttas without 'that pesky Abhidhamma.' ---------- H: > 2) Patipatti is indistinguishable from pariyatti, ---------- Patipatti is satipatthana - the exclusive domain of the wise. The Abhidhamma clearly distinguishes it from the more common 'pariyatti' (right intellectual understanding). It cannot be distinguished, however, by conventional appearances - such as pillow sitting. :-) ---------------- H: > and pariyatti consists overwhelmingly of the studying of "the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin," to quote from item # 1 above. ---------------- "Pariyatti" refers to paramattha dhammas. It refers to panna and to 'cittas that contain panna' whenever they take concepts of Dhamma as their object. ------------------------- H: > 3) Since reality is reality there is no need to do anything special to enable ourselves to see it as it is, ------------------------- I would say "no need and no possibility:" it is too late! The time for 'doing something special to enable us to directly know reality' (the dhammas of the present moment) has past. ----------------------------------- H: > and, in any case, nothing *can* be done to cultivate the mind. "It all depends on conditions," and there is nothing ever to be done to cultivate those conditions. ----------------------------------- Don't forget the four factors leading to enlightenment. If they had already been put in place, then right understanding could have arisen right now. But they weren't and it hasn't. That is something we can all understand (provided we have done some basic Dhamma-study). --------------------------------------------- H: > Of course, this makes the whole matter independent of any and all intentional action (kamma), ----------------------------------------------- Bhavana is intentional in the sense that it is accompanied by cetana. So, I would have said, "Of course, this makes the whole matter independent of any rite or ritual." ------------ H: > and, thus, it is, in that exact sense, a matter of pure chance. (This last sentence is my analysis. It isn't the stated position of the "nothing can be done" folks.) ----------- The "nothing can be done folks" are helping us to see something profound and immeasurably valuable: namely, the dhammas that are arising now are doing so by conditions, not by self. -------------------------------------------- C: > > > There also was on occasions an uncomfortable amount of dosa in the > discussions, intolerance and blunt remarks by one or two towards > others present who didn't follow the DSG [lack of] practice, and who > were meditators. ............. Howard: > That, I believe, is a consequence of clinging to beliefs. We hang onto beliefs as if they were lifelines or anchors. It is due to strongly resisting the salvational "I could be wrong!" ---------------------------------------------- Yes, dosa is the villain and it is conditioned by lobha. Wouldn't it be marvellous if we could deeply understand and believe that? We would cease to make a big deal of dosa. We would see it as just another fleeting, conditioned dhamma. ---------- C: > > Well ... you asked ... ..... Howard: > LOLOL! But Sarah didn't ask that I pile on as well! ;-) ----------- No harm has been done while we are all still speaking to one another. :-) Ken H PS: Woops, perhaps this message will be filed in the "Too damned long" bin. Sorry about that. :-) 55989 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:37pm Subject: Flood htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Do not worry. There is no earth-quake. There is no tsunami. There is no cyclone. There is just shower of rain. This will not flood. Even if there is flood, this flood must be desirable flood. It is the flood of Dhamma. Only when echo is heard will there realise drought comes. When there is drought there is no food and even no water. Let the flood be there. With Metta, Htoo Naing 55990 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:44pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,58 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XVII > > [III. DETAILED EXPOSITION] > > [(i) Ignorance] > > 58. According to the Suttanta method 'ignorance' is unknowing about the > four instances beginning with suffering. According to the Abhidhamma > method it is unknowing about the eight instances [that is to say, the > above-mentioned four] together with [the four] beginning with the past; > for this is said: 'Herein, what is ignorance? It is unknowing about > suffering, [unknowing about the origin of suffering, unknowing about the > cessation of suffering, unknowing about the way leading to the cessation > of suffering], unknowing about the past, unknowing about the future, > unknowing about the past and future, unknowing about specific > conditionality and conditionally-arisen states' (cf. Dhs. 1162). > ********************** > 58. aya.m taavettha sa"nkhepakathaa. > avijjaapaccayaasa"nkhaarapadakathaa > aya.m pana vitthaaranayo -- avijjaati suttantapariyaayena dukkhaadiisu > catuusu .thaanesu a~n~naa.na.m, abhidhammapariyaayena pubbantaadiihi > saddhi.m > a.t.thasu. vutta~nheta.m ``tattha katamaa avijjaa, dukkhe > a~n~naa.na.m...pe0... > dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya a~n~naa.na.m, pubbante > a~n~naa.na.m, > aparante, pubbantaaparante, idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppannesu dhammesu > a~n~naana''nti (dha0 sa0 1106). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Thank you very much for this series. Just check for me please. Is it 'a~n~naana.m' or 'a~n~naa.na.m'? I think you may be right. But I just remember a word 'a~n~nena'. With respect, Htoo Naing 55991 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,58 lbidd2 Hi Htoo, I don't know the answer to your question but maybe Nina can say something tomorrow. Larry 55992 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 829 ) lbidd2 Htoo: "Here both objects are pannatti. Preparatory sign and learning sign are both names, concepts, pannatti even though the initial ruupa seen by the eyes is vanno or colour (shape, form)." Hi Htoo, Thanks for this series. Here are a few thoughts. Even though names and words play a role in cultivating a nimitta, the nimitta is mostly a mental image (this is classified as pannatti). For example, the word "earth" and its associations are factors. These associations should be conducive to calm and profundity, an invitation to surrender hindrances. Panna is a big help in recognizing hindrances here and abandoning them by snipping proliferation (papa~nca). It is interesting how the mental image is developed. To start with clear seeing is a must but there has to be a delicate balance between too much effort and not enough. Above all it should be remembered that what is being cultivated is samatha. Larry 55993 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member hantun1 Dear Nina, I do not have any commentary and sub-commentary, either in Burmese translation or the Pali text. I do not collect them because what I have right now is more than I can read and study in this life. But I will be at your service in whatever way I can. With metta and highest respect, Han P.S. I am downloading another book of yours: “Cetasikas” published by zolag, London --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I am glad you are here. Looking forward to discuss > any points regarding Abh. > in D.L. and Buddhism in D.L. > You will see that Larry and I are doing a > Visuddhimagga study project. The > Pali Tiika of Visuddhimagga is not easy, there is no > English translation. > Therefore I only give summaries, I could not > translate line by line, I would > never in my life finish. Any addition from your > Burmese translation will be > appreciated. That is, if you have time. > Best wishes, > Nina. > op 23-02-2006 11:36 schreef han tun op > hantun1@...: 55994 From: Inge Endah Hartati Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:52pm Subject: Start Learning Abhidamma ingeendah Hi All, I'm Indonesian. I joined this group for several weeks but I'm still confuse when I read all of ur discussion. I Need ur guidance, where do i have to start if i want to learn abhidhamma? ur help will be highly appreciated tks n rgds Inge 55995 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,58 hantun1 Dear Htoo and Larry, Can I just join in? According to the Pali text that I have, it is 'a~n~naa.na.m' With metta, Han Tun --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... > wrote: > > > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. > XVII > > > > [III. DETAILED EXPOSITION] > > > > [(i) Ignorance] > > > > 58. According to the Suttanta method 'ignorance' > is unknowing > about the > > four instances beginning with suffering. According > to the > Abhidhamma > > method it is unknowing about the eight instances > [that is to say, > the > > above-mentioned four] together with [the four] > beginning with the > past; > > for this is said: 'Herein, what is ignorance? It > is unknowing about > > suffering, [unknowing about the origin of > suffering, unknowing > about the > > cessation of suffering, unknowing about the way > leading to the > cessation > > of suffering], unknowing about the past, unknowing > about the > future, > > unknowing about the past and future, unknowing > about specific > > conditionality and conditionally-arisen states' > (cf. Dhs. 1162). > > ********************** > > 58. aya.m taavettha sa"nkhepakathaa. > > avijjaapaccayaasa"nkhaarapadakathaa > > aya.m pana vitthaaranayo -- avijjaati > suttantapariyaayena > dukkhaadiisu > > catuusu .thaanesu a~n~naa.na.m, > abhidhammapariyaayena > pubbantaadiihi > > saddhi.m > > a.t.thasu. vutta~nheta.m ``tattha katamaa avijjaa, > dukkhe > > a~n~naa.na.m...pe0... > > dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya a~n~naa.na.m, > pubbante > > a~n~naa.na.m, > > aparante, pubbantaaparante, > idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppannesu > dhammesu > > a~n~naana''nti (dha0 sa0 1106). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Larry, > > Thank you very much for this series. Just check for > me please. > > Is it 'a~n~naana.m' or 'a~n~naa.na.m'? > > I think you may be right. But I just remember a word > 'a~n~nena'. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 55996 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/23/06 7:35:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Christine), > > I think you must have filed my previous message along with Jon's > under "You would already know what I had to say." This current > message probably belongs in the same bin :-) but, rightly or wrongly, > I feel compelled to rehash the usual arguments. Please overlook any > apparent personal criticisms. Put them down to a poor command of the > written word. :-) ----------------------------------- Howard: LOL! En garde, mon ami! ---------------------------------- > > ----------- > <. . .> > Chistine: >>There was the > >usual insistence of seeing that `all there is' is just this moment, > >and then again, just this moment, and then again .. which I don't > >disagree with. > > > ......... > Howard: > Nor do I, at all. In fact, I rather like it! > ----------- > > To agree with it means, in my opinion, to be bowled over by it. If > there really are only dhammas - no conventional realities at all - > then that must be, to say the least, a life-changing realisation. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: As you know, I don't believe that even dhammas exist as things-in-themselves. I do not accept that any dhamma has self. But in any case, an intellectual understanding and agreement doesn't provide a life-changing realization. Direct knowing does. -------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------ > C: >> But there was also a strong insistence that one > > >should *begin* with a clear realisation or understanding of the > >anatta-ness of all phenomena. No `gradual' increase in > >understanding - no concepts - straight to double-barrelled > >Paramattha dhammas(and all in Pali please .. we're DSG-ers!!) > > ....... > Howard: > Well, I just don't see this as even close to > realistic. That, in fact, just isn't where we start. We can pretend > that we do, but that is just pretense. > ---------------------------------------- > > I am not familiar with the "no gradual increase" point of view, > but "understanding the complete anattaness of all phenomena" seems > unarguable to me. If we believe that the Dhamma admits any > possibility of atta (self) then surely we have not even begun to > understand. What is so controversial about that? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Note that the word 'begin' was emphasized in the quote, Ken. The mere adopting of a belief in anatta at the outset means little, especially when at the beginning the very notion of not-self holds little meaning. And if the "understanding" that one is supposed to start out with is significant, then one will never start out at all. ------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > H: >(As to the Pali, well ... ;-)) > --------------- > > Well what? I don't get the joke. I imagine familiarity with Pali is > an unavoidable by-product of years and decades of Dhamma study. I > see no hint of anything untoward. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina doesn't insist on Pali, Ken. Does Khun Sujin? But I know of one person who definitely didn't insist on the Dhamma being taught and discussed via a particular language. That person was the Buddha! He told his closest followers to teach in the vernacular. ---------------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > H: >On the other hand, to begin with a clear intellectual > understanding that our ordinary perception is faulty > --------------------- > > In what way is that "on the other hand?" Aren't you saying the same > thing that Christine took exception to? How can you say it is > realistic that we "begin with a clear intellectual understanding that > our perception is faulty," and yet say it is "not even close to > realistic" that we "we begin with a clear understanding of the anatta- > ness of all phenomena?" -------------------------------------------- Howard: A genuine understanding is not just an intellectual understanding. I understood Chris to be referring to a direct, true understanding, and I was pointing out that while that is an unreasonable requirement, an intellectual understanding is very important. Couldn't you figure out what I meant when I said "on the other hand"? --------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > H: >and that it *is* possible to see *truly*, > ------------------------------ > > I am sure we all say it is possible to see truly - provided that the > conditions for seeing truly have been put in place. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, now, that's good. Too bad nothing can be done to foster conditions, eh? ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------ > H: >and to constantly attempt to see what arises as it really is, > is, I think, all to the good. > ------------------------------------------ > > Hmmm, this is where we differ. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, just here? ;-) ----------------------------------------- To attempt to see truly when the > > conditions for seeing truly have not been put in place is, I would > say, symptomatic of untrue seeing. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The attempt is to foster the conditions. ------------------------------------------- It would be better (as you said > > earlier) "to begin with a clear intellectual understanding that our > perception is faulty." ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, and what volitional actions shall we take to do that, Ken? Gee, if the conditions are there for that, then there will be the clear understanding, and if not, then not, right? (In any case, it's not an either-or matter. It's a both-this-and-that matter.) --------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > C: >>Howard's (rather famous :-)description of some of the views of > the > >DSG and BKK group as seeming to be `helpless and hopeless' echoed > in > >my mind during this stay. (I even brought the term up in one of the > >recorded discussions.) > > ........... > Howard: > I repeatedly say that with regard to statements > implying that there is no volitional cultivation to be done, > -------------------------------------- > > All bhavana is volitional in the sense that panna is accompanied by > cetana. I think you mean volitional in the commonly accepted sense. > That is, I think you are saying vipassana arises as the result of > willpower. It doesn't - nor does any other dhamma. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Insight arises from conditions which, in steps, can be cultivated. That is different from saying "Let there be light!". And as for dhammas not arising due to willpower, I say that is utter nonsense. My arm and fingers are being lifted by willpower at this very moment! ---------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > H: >as if the dhammic realities underlying such conventional > volition as involved in activities such as right effort were null and > void. > ----------- > > Just to be clear on this; you are talking about conventional right > effort, aren't you? You are not saying that right effort, the Path > Factor, is a conventional activity. --------------------------------------- Howard: Save the jargon, Ken! By right effort I mean what the Buddha meant when he taught it again and again in the suttas!! I'll stick with the Buddha, thanks! Perhaps the right effort you are speaking of is something better than what the Buddha spoke of? Something more basic and important? Something only Abhidhammikas can grasp? ------------------------------------- > > To the best of my knowledge, no one has said the realities underlying > conventional right effort were null and void. > > The realities involved over any measurable period of time are many > and varied. Each of them arises by conditions and is devoid of a > controlling self. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with the foregoing. ---------------------------------------- If there is belief in control over dhammas then the > > underlying realities include wrong view. ----------------------------------------- Howard: There are dhammas involved in my typing this post, Ken. They are being created with will as a condition. Now, if your post was created without your willing it, then it must have been an instance of automatic writing. Are you involed in channeling, Ken? ----------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > H: >However, urging that one pay attention to whatever rises (and > ceases) in the moment actually tends in the opposite direction, I > think, in encouraging willful (and wholesome) mental actvity. > ------------------ > > Sorry if I digress, but how is it possible to do such a thing? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I have understood Nina and Khun Sujin to urge that. Perhaps I'm mistaken in that. ----------------------------------------- I have > > asked Htoo the same question but he has failed to answer; perhaps you > will. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Can't you attend to things, Ken? Maybe some meditation will help you! --------------------------------------- When we are walking, you say we should pay attention to > > walking. But when we are walking we are also, for example, feeling > the breeze on our skin: why are we to ignore that and pay attention > only to walking? Apart from feeling the breeze, there are a thousand > (perhaps a million) conventional things going on at any one time. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, when you can discuss this from experience, I'll discuss it with you. ----------------------------------------- > (There are cars and people passing by; progress being made towards > our destination and away from our point of departure; the breath > going in and out, feelings of clothing on the skin - the list goes on > and on.) But you want us to single out just one of those concepts for > special attention. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Did I say that? Uh, uh. When I meditate, I restrict the range of attention to strengthen concentration and calm, and then I open up that enhanced mentality. That is my practice. Oh, one more thing: My meditation isn't on concepts. ------------------------------------------- To do that would be to ignore all the others, and > > so conventional vipassana-meditation, it seems to me, is primarily a > practice of heedlessness. ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's irrelevant inasmuch as it has nothing to do with my practice. ----------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > C: >>During these discussions, there was an alluding to > the 'fact'that > >any `method' or `practice ... samatha or vipassana meditation, > >constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, > even > >dana and sila - indicated that the person was deluded by at least > >one of the 20 kinds of sakkaaya di.t.thi. > > ........... > Howard: > Well, IMO that is most unfortunate - and here I do > see 'helpless and hopeless' on the horizon! I think an attitude such > as this is dreadfully harmful both to the one who has that attitude > and to the listeners to whom s/he advocates it. Here is where the > harm resides. Harm doesn't lie in adopting a theory of momentary > mindstates and ultimate realities that have own being [And > that's atta, folks!!] anywhere nearly as much as in a view that there > are no useful actions (kamma) to engage in to lead "one" towards > awakening and liberation. > To take the fact that there is no "I" to do anything at all as basis > for a view that there is nothing at all to be done, especially with > regard to attaining a true realization of that fact of impersonality, > is the quintessence of irony. > --------------------------------------------- > > To accuse anyone on DSG of promoting helplessness and despair would > be very unfair. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. I think it is right on the mark. I don't believe that there is the slightest intention to promote these, but I think that they are what are expressed, and they are inadvertently what get promoted, and most especially by you. --------------------------------------------- The irony, if there is any, is that those who are > > most often accused of such a thing are those who have acquired the > most knowledge of the written Dhamma. What motivates them? I doubt it > is helplessness and despair. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Neither do I, as I said above. -------------------------------------------- > > And, BTW, sabhava - a central tenet of Theravada Buddhism - is not > atta, no matter how many times you say it is. :-) -------------------------------------------- Howard: The word 'sabhava' in Theravada often means "characteristic", but not always. And the word aside, dhammas are often treated here DSG as self-existent realities with own being! --------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------- > C: >>It seems to me that it is not possible for all the suttas > which > >mention these practices to be in some sort of code where they > >don't "really" mean what they say. > > > ........ > Howard: > Yes, indeed, Chris! One has to wonder at times > whatever happened to common sense. > -------------------------------------------- > > Common sense is good, but on its own it is not vipassana. > > -------------------------------------- Howard: Common sense is not vipassana. Who said it was? -------------------------------------- In the > > absence of the Buddha's Dhamma, "samatha or vipassana meditation, > constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even > dana and sila" would, by all commonsense, refer to conventional > activities. However, the Buddha tells that, ultimately, there are > only conditioned dhammas: the terms Christine has listed are > ultimately meaningful only in so far as they refer to fleeting, > selfless, paramattha dhammas. When that has been intellectually > accepted common sense will no longer suggest the Buddha taught a > conventional practice. --------------------------------------- Howard: It's getting tiresome, Ken! Read the suttas. The Buddha urged all of "meditation, constant mindfulness, bare awareness, watching the sense doors, even dana and sila." Gosh, if only the Buddha could be here for an hour or so, so that it could be explained to him how wrong he was! --------------------------------------- > > ----------- > C: >> It seems to me that there is not >a complete lack of control > … even > >DSG-ers choose to read or go to > >hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of > >any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". > > ............ > Howard: >Of course! > ------------------------------------------- > > Dhammas arise by conditions, not by control. If DSG'ers read or > discuss Dhamma with desire for results, or, worse still, with belief > in control over dhammas, then the prevailing conditions are akusala > and no *real* Dhamma-study is being done. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Like listening to an old, broken record. --------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > C: >>Participants in BKK were stating they were all very far from > really > >knowing the difference between nama and rupa - yet constantly > >talking in ultimate terms about there being no me, no you, no > >persons - only citta, cetasika, and rupa ... and so no-one > to 'know' > >anything or 'do' anything. This seemed to me to *not* be an > >experienced understanding, but rather, a 'parroting of dhamma'. > > ........ > Howard: > Well, it's more than just parroting I think. I do > think that there is a love of Dhamma, though I think the Dhamma is > misperceived. > --------------- > > It's nice of you to say so, but if, as you suggest, they love a > misperceived Dhamma they cannot love the true Dhamma. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I leave that for others to decide. -------------------------------------- > > --------------------------- > H: >I think that there is a strong belief in the theory, but there > is a conflating of intellectual understanding with true > understanding. Underlying it all, I think, are the following beliefs: > --------------------------- > > To the best of my knowledge the list that follows is not of beliefs > declared by anyone on DSG. Many of them have been expressly, and > repeatedly, disavowed. > > ------------------- > H: > 1) The Dhamma in its truest form is to be found in the > Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, > especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin. > > -------------------- > > There is only one Dhamma. The same one-Dhamma is presented in > different ways in different parts of the Canon. > > ---------------------------- > H: >The suttas are stories for the masses. > ---------------------------- > > Abhidhamma (in the suttas and in the Abhidhamma-pitaka) is the > kindergarten stage. When there is a good grasp of Abhidhamma, then > (and only then) suttas presented in conventional terminology can be > correctly understood. > > ------------------------------------------ > H: >There is Dhamma to found therein, but not without the help of > the true sources as mentioned above. > ------------------------------------------ > > Perhaps I have missed your point. I am not sure of how suttas are > alleged to be "stories for the masses?" Unless, by "the masses" you > mean people who are not really interested in the intended meaning, > but who want only to read their preconceived notions into the Dhamma. > I can see how those people would prefer to interpret suttas > without 'that pesky Abhidhamma.' > > ---------- > H: > 2) Patipatti is indistinguishable from pariyatti, > ---------- > > Patipatti is satipatthana - the exclusive domain of the wise. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense! Patipatti is practice, not the fruit of practice. Saying something doesn't make it so! Words have meaning!! ------------------------------------ The > > Abhidhamma clearly distinguishes it from the more common 'pariyatti' > (right intellectual understanding). It cannot be distinguished, > however, by conventional appearances - such as pillow sitting. :-) > > ---------------- > H: >and pariyatti consists overwhelmingly of the studying of "the > Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, > especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin," to quote > from item # 1 above. > ---------------- > > "Pariyatti" refers to paramattha dhammas. It refers to panna and > to 'cittas that contain panna' whenever they take concepts of Dhamma > as their object. --------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense! The Buddha would be amazed! -------------------------------- > > ------------------------- > H: > 3) Since reality is reality there is no need to do > anything special to enable ourselves to see it as it is, > ------------------------- > > I would say "no need and no possibility:" it is too late! The time > for 'doing something special to enable us to directly know reality' > (the dhammas of the present moment) has past. --------------------------------------- Howard: Really!! And when was that time? What time is there other than now? --------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------- > H: >and, in any case, nothing *can* be done to cultivate the > mind. "It all depends on conditions," and there is nothing ever to be > done to cultivate those conditions. > ----------------------------------- > > Don't forget the four factors leading to enlightenment. If they had > already been put in place, then right understanding could have arisen > right now. > -------------------------------------- Howard: HOW were they to have been put in place? According to you there is never any way!! (And THAT is a doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness!) ------------------------------------- But they weren't and it hasn't. That is something we can > > all understand (provided we have done some basic Dhamma-study). -------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, there is no way to will Dhamma study. Nothing can be done according to you. Give up! -------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------- > H: >Of course, this makes the whole matter independent of any and > all intentional action (kamma), > ----------------------------------------------- > > Bhavana is intentional in the sense that it is accompanied by cetana. > So, I would have said, "Of course, this makes the whole matter > independent of any rite or ritual." --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Read the suttas, Ken. The Buddha was very specific about what rites and rituals are. It does not refer to any and all actions that you disapprove of. But I must admit, this is clever trick to take out of your arsenal box when needed, the second most popular. ---------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > H: >and, thus, it is, in that exact sense, a matter of pure chance. > (This last sentence is my analysis. It isn't the stated position of > the "nothing can be done" folks.) > ----------- > > The "nothing can be done folks" are helping us to see something > profound and immeasurably valuable: namely, the dhammas that are > arising now are doing so by conditions, not by self. ------------------------------------------- Howard: There's the *most* popular trick in the arsenal box - accuse atta belief when it is in fact irrelevant. ------------------------------------------ > > -------------------------------------------- > C: >> > >There also was on occasions an uncomfortable amount of dosa in the > >discussions, intolerance and blunt remarks by one or two towards > >others present who didn't follow the DSG [lack of] practice, and > who > >were meditators. > > ............. > Howard: >That, I believe, is a consequence of clinging to beliefs. > We hang onto beliefs as if they were lifelines or anchors. It is due > to strongly resisting the salvational "I could be wrong!" > ---------------------------------------------- > > Yes, dosa is the villain and it is conditioned by lobha. Wouldn't it > be marvellous if we could deeply understand and believe that? We > would cease to make a big deal of dosa. We would see it as just > another fleeting, conditioned dhamma. > > ---------- > C: >>Well ... you asked ... > ..... > Howard: > LOLOL! But Sarah didn't ask that I pile on as > well! ;-) > ----------- > > No harm has been done while we are all still speaking to one > another. :-) ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, we're speaking. But what you said here you've said before, and I've given the same replies as usual. What was your point in writing beyond verbal jousting and working to score debate points? We are about as far apart on these matters as we could possibly be. So, what is being gained? ------------------------------------------ > > > Ken H > > PS: Woops, perhaps this message will be filed in the "Too damned > long" bin. Sorry about that. :-) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, yes, it did occur to me that it was a tad long. ;-) ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 55997 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:06pm Subject: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I ust don't see this as even close to realistic. That, in fact, > just isn't where we start. We can pretend that we do, but that is just > pretense. ( > Howard: > Well, IMO that is most unfortunate - and here I do see 'helpless and > hopeless' on the horizon! I think an attitude such as this is dreadfully > harmful both to the one who has that attitude and to the listeners to whom s/he > advocates it. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed, Chris! One has to wonder at times whatever happened to > common sense. > -------------------------------------------- > It seems to me that there is not > a complete lack of control … even > > DSG-ers choose to read or go to > > hear the true Dhamma, carefully attend to it - but stop short of > > any "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course! > ------------------------------------------- > there is a conflating of intellectual > understanding with true understanding. Underlying it all, I think, are the > following beliefs: > 1) The Dhamma in its truest form is to be found in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka and the Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun > Sujin. The suttas are stories for the masses. There is Dhamma to found > therein, but not without the help of the true sources as mentioned above. > 2) Patipatti is indistinguishable from pariyatti, and pariyatti > consists overwhelmingly of the studying of "the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the > Buddhagosa-provided commentaries, especially as interpreted by Khun Sujin," to quote > > Howard: > That, I believe, is a consequence of clinging to beliefs. We hang onto > beliefs as if they were lifelines or anchors. +++++++++++ Dear Howard, Thanks for you message. I think you don't need to worry too much as A. Sujin is now 79 years, soon her life will end. Perhaps DSG will close too and all the damage done to the Dhamma that you mention will end. Very few people are interested in the West even now. Robertk 55998 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:46pm Subject: [dsg] Rite and ritual: Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Read the suttas, Ken. The Buddha was very specific about what rites > and rituals are. It does not refer to any and all actions that you disapprove > of. But I must admit, this is clever trick to take out of your arsenal box when > needed, the second most popular. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Dear Howard, Majjima Nikaya 64, we read: "An untaught, ordinary person ... abides with a mind enslaved by adherence to rules and observances [silabbata-paramasa- pariyutthitena cetasa viharati]." The Buddha gives extreme examples of Silabbataparamasa (rules and rituals) but the ancient commentaries explain that even good kamma can be considered as silabbataparamasa - in fact even genuine jhana- if they are misperceived. The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma (good or bad)... Thus silabataparamasa (clinging to rules and rituals)is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" Thus silabataparamasa can lead to both good and bad states, it can lead even to the highest pleasant feelings experienced in jhana. A very special type of panna (wisdom) is the base of the development of satipatthana. We may have the idea that we have to make the "mind" still so that we can watch nama(mentality) and rupa (materiality): Not realising that the mind is a concept and that namas and rupas are arising and passing away all the time we are trying to arrange this still 'mind', that the nama that 'knows' has disappeared before we even had time to think of it. . We can become intent on trying to do this or that because of clinging to self view and its corollary, wrong practice, silabataparamasa. Subtle wrong ideas that take us out of the present moment If we could see now that we do not have to make seeing happen, or hearing or hardness, that they are conditioned in complex ways, then we would comprehend that all dhammas are similary conditioned and arise without any self doing anything. The understanding of this - which develops as the different dhammas are investigated - is very relaxing, and comes with a detachment that is not dependent on the 'situation', on whether one is sitting or standing, alone, or with others, or whether one is healthy or ill. If it reaches sufficient level then it will be with with strong samadhi, for brief moments; but it is a samadhi that is not the same as trying to concentrate on an object. All ways of kusala (wholesome) can support the development of insight, but they won't if they are clung to or mistaken as the path. I think it is all about understanding the here and now. The problem is that instead of learning to see into wrongview, instead of seeing into tanha, we are lead by them. Tanha and wrongview become our teacher and so, thinking we are escaping them, we actually strengthen them. And this is silabbataparamsa. RobertK 55999 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,58 lbidd2 Hi Han, How would you translate 'a~n~naa.na.m'? I lean more toward the idea of actively ignoring rather than the absence of knowledge. But I don't know the grammar. Could it be said that a rock is a~n~naa.na.m of the four noble truths? Larry Han Tun: 'Dear Htoo and Larry, Can I just join in? According to the Pali text that I have, it is 'a~n~naa.na.m' With metta, Han Tun"