56400 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 5, 2006 7:40pm Subject: Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sukinder (and other DSG members), I have now some points with regard to my meeting with Acharn Sujin. Sukinder: There was some discussion about anatta and the fact of no control, and I remember one significant response from K. Sujin. She asked you if whether you could do anything about "fire". It was to show you that "Dhammas" are what they are, and that no one could change their nature and characteristics to something else. Nina: Yes, I remember that she sometimes uses this as an example. Fire has heat and this is conditioned. Nobody can make it cold. -------------------- Han: Now that both of you had explained, I know now why she asked me that question, “what can you do about fire?” But at that time, when she asked me that question, the question came suddenly, out of the blue, without any reference. I did not know what she wanted or how to answer, so I gave a very stupid answer. ==================== Sukinder: You also had some misunderstanding about cittanupassana and thought that you were indeed practicing it. I think K. Sujin cleared things up for you. -------------------- Han: When I told Acharn Sujin I was doing cittanupassana, she asked me how I did it. I said I noted the arise and fall of the cittas mentioned in Satipatthana sutta and started enumerating – mind affected by lust, mind unaffected by lust, mind affected by hate, mind unaffected by hate, mind affected by delusion, mind unaffected by delusion, and so on. She said that was not cittanupassana. She said I should note the arising of eye-consciousness and ear-conscious as they arise, here and right now, and talked about the “conditions” that condition the arising of these cittas. For example, for eye-conscious there must be conditions such as eye, visual object and light. I know the importance of noting eye-consciousness and ear-consciousness and I even quoted Malukyaputta sutta where the Buddha instructed that in the seen there will be merely the seen, in the heard there will be merely the heard, etc. While I fully appreciate the importance of contemplating on such cittas as eye-consciousness and ear-consciousness, I do not know, still now, why she said the cittanupassana that I had been doing was not the right cittanupassana. With metta and deepest respect, Han P.S. for Nina: I do not speak Thai. I look forward to seeing you in Bangkok in January when you come here for Acharn’s 80th birthday. I will have my 80th birthday a month earlier in December 2006. I will also be most happy to meet Mr Lodewijk. 56401 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Mar 5, 2006 10:37pm Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn ... christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I've read assertions to the effect that stream entry is a relatively > easy achievement. My comment? At least my immediate comment? It is wordless: > Just a lot of laughing! ;-)) > No, I don't think it's an easy matter by a long shot! I believe it is > a big, big step, certainly doable, by real people, but requiring a great deal > of time and consistent, dedicated, properly directed effort. Stream entry is a > foot in the door, and the door is a very heavy one that is hard to budge! > As for whether three months of basically non-stop intensive practice > of the right sort could lead to stream entry, that I wouldn't dismiss. But such > isn't easy - it is incredibly demanding, and it doesn't bring with it a > guarantee. The implication that it is guaranteed is misleading if not false > advertising I see it. > Relatedly, according to the Buddha, full enlightenment itself can be > achieved, in principle, within a single week! And I believe that is absolutely > true! But that, I presume, requires flawless practice without gap, t > wenty-four/seven!. Flawless! Think of what that means!! > > With metta, > Howard Hello Tep, Scott, Howard, all, An interesting point about 'Time'. I can't remember the Buddha talking specifically about time on very many occasions - one Sutta where he, himself, brought it up ... not in response to a question, is the finale of the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta MN10 'The Foundations of Mindfulness': 46. "Bhikkhus, if anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven years, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return. "Let alone seven years, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for six years... for five years... for four years... for three years... for two years... for one year, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return. "Let alone one year, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven months... for six months... for five months... for four months... for three months... for two months... for one month... for half a month, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return. "Let alone half a month, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven days, one of two fruits could be expected for him: dither final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." My understanding is that there is only the present moment. That's all there is. Time in larger chunks doesn't really exist. I remember a Dhamma Talk by Patrick Kearney on the subject of Cultivating Clarity (- have it somewhere on a CD from a Retreat I attended with him). With regard to this, he tells a lovely story regarding Time about Yasutami Hakunin Roshi (Sp?) with a corollary by Robert Aitken Roshi (who he studied with in Hawaii for many years before he (Patrick) ordained under Mahasi Sayadaw) ... I'll see if I can dig it up and post it for your delectation. :-) We don't know the accumulations of ourselves and others - so it is not that someone goes on a retreat in Myanmar and reaches miraculously some level of attainment in a few weeks ... it is the aeons long striving that went before the present moment. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 56402 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 5, 2006 9:26pm Subject: Evaporizing Bad States ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Instant dispelling of bad thoughts evaporates all Evil States!!! The Blessed Buddha once said: When, bhikkhus and friends, while one is trying to behave good & cleaver, if occasionally due to a lapse of awareness, a momentary neglect occurs & evil detrimental memories and bad intentions connected with mental chains arise in one, slow might be the rearising of one's awareness, but one should ultra-quickly leave these thoughts, dispel the obsessions, end these impulses, thereby eradicating any phobia and mania. Imagine a man who let a tiny drop of water fall onto an iron plate heated for a whole day on the stove... Slow might be his letting go of the water drop, but then it would quickly vaporize and vanish. So too, while one is neglecting acute awareness & the mind strays back into the mental blocks of evil detrimental memories & bad intentions, slow might be the rearising of one's awareness, yet then one should instantly leave these thoughts, dispel these obsessions, end these impulses, thereby eradicating any disadvantageous and afflicting phobia and mania. It is in exactly this way that a bhikkhu has comprehended an ideal mode of behaviour & habit of living that prevents any evil detrimental mental state of avariciousness, lust, greed, envy, jealousy & discontent in flowing in upon, enveloping & dominating him... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [190-] Section 35: The 6 Senses. Salayatana. Thread: States that entail Suffering. Dukkha-Dhamma 244. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 56403 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 5, 2006 11:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 390- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction) [Part 1V] Introduction When we perform dåna, observe síla, apply ourselves to the development of calm or the development of insight there is kusala citta. Kusala citta is accompanied by sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas and these assist the citta in performing its task. When there is kusala citta there is no attachment, aversion or ignorance, one is temporarily free from defilements. However, after the kusala cittas have fallen away there are bound to be akusala cittas. There are many more akusala cittas in our life than kusala cittas. Kusala citta does not often arise since we have accumulated so many defilements. Each kusala citta is accompanied by nonattachment (alobha), but this quality seems to be against our nature. We are absorbed in and infatuated with the objects we experience through the six doors. We want pleasant objects for ourselves and it is our nature to think of ourselves in the first place. Akusala is deeply rooted and so long as latent tendencies have not been eradicated akusala citta is bound to arise time and again. Even if we try not to be stingy, jealous or proud, these defilements still arise. There is no self who has authority over the cittas which arise, cittas are not self. When we experience a beautiful object attachment tends to arise and when we experience an unpleasant object aversion tends to arise. ***** (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 56405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin .a correction. nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, you are so kind, but in reality there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Also hearing praise: lobha grasps any object that is at hand! But I am grateful to Kh sujin to help me detecting such moments. No I am not waiting for conditions. Actually, nobody is. Nina. op 05-03-2006 21:11 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Excellent, Nina! :-) Your impressive Dhamma study and contemplation, > along with your practice of sustained sila, especially your active generosity > and sweetness of manner, and your careful attending to what arises in the > moment clearly make you the diametric opposite of hopeless and helpless! IMO, > you > are *not* an example of a person who merely waits for conditions! ;-) 56406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 0:03am Subject: Re: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin nilovg Dear Scott, sorry for mixing up your first name and surname. I see on my incmoing mails your full name, and as soon as I read Duncan, I think: O, that is nice, appreciating so much your interest and your questions. op 06-03-2006 00:21 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > > This is an interesting point. It seems to me that it would be one > thing to claim to be able to "produce" Stream Entry through the magic > of one's retreat, and even another for one to announce that one has > attained this level. Would one even know? I suppose so, in a way. > Wouldn't the making of such a claim demonstrate its lack of validity? > It would be so, I don't know, "un-stream-entererly" to be proclaiming > this. --------- N: Quite right. A sotaapanna would not proclaim being such. As Rob K once said, this is forbidden for monks. There is a reason: for non-ariyans this is merely a name, it has no real meaning. One cannot understand the wisdom of the sotaapanna if one has not attained to that state oneself. It makes no sense to think of people: who has such or such attainment, who has not. This distracts from attending to the dhamma appearing now. This is already a great task. Nina. 56407 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 0:03am Subject: Re: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin nilovg Hi Tep, yes, difficult. People may have different motives why they want to become a sotaapanna in this life. Is it anxiety about a bad rebirth? Tep, I do not want to pry into your personal life, but perhaps it may be helpful if you give your reasons. But it is all right if you do not want to. I think it may be helpful to discuss this point. We are all striving to reach the goal, and discussions are among the factors that can help us. Years ago I used to be anxious about an unhappy rebirth, like Christine once mentioned. Now usually I do not think much about it, but at times I feel anxiety too. However, this is not helpful. As to the passage in the satipatthanasutta, seven years, etc. I do not quite know how to explain this. I think in the Buddha's time it was not as hard as at this time. We do not hear the teachings directly from him. On the other hand, I like Phil's reference to his and Lodewijk's favotite sutta: it can be done, if it would not be possible I would not tell you to do so. Nina. op 05-03-2006 23:56 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones lives at home with an > awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, > openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to > requests, delighting in the distribution of alms." [SN LV.32] > > Or, 2. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is discerning, > endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, > penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress." [SN LV.33] > > Tep's comment : In my opinion the two alternatives are as difficult to > implement as the original "perfect sila" requirement. 56408 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Thank you very much for letting us know more about your first discussion with A.Sujin. I'm most impressed and touched by your sincerity and modesty: --- han tun wrote: > For me it was an entirely new experience. I asked > Acharn Sujin, if there is no “I” or “we” for whom are > we now doing what we are doing? Immediately, Acharn > Sujin asked me back “Who are ‘whom’ and who are ‘we’? > There is no ‘who’ and no ‘we’ and there are only > realities and conditions.” And she asked me many > questions most of which I could not answer or I > answered wrongly. I am still dazed. ..... S: Sometimes Nina and I joke about the 'bitter medicine' when we listen to her and reflect deeply on the words. Sometimes our views, our clinging to ourselves or our conceit gets in the way at the time, but when we reflect further later, we can really appreciate the meaning of good friendship. I have no doubt that she and the rest of the group would have been delighted to have you present with your excellent questions and keen comments (just as we are here!). Thank you also for joining in the Cetasikas thread and for your excellent layout of the answers to the questions on the last section on the Group of Defilements. Much appreciated. You weren’t a member here when Nina was posting her series of A.Sujin’s talks in Cambodia. I think you’ll find A.Sujin’s comments in this one of interest as it relates to the comments being made about her approach: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/53845 (For more, also see ‘Study’ in U.P.) This is just an extract from the post above Sujin: “As for myself, I study only in order to have more understanding, and I study also in so far as I can understand what I study. If a part of the teachings is beyond my ability of understanding I am not interested in the study. I do not need to speak about terms, to arrange subjects in the right order or to write essays for others. I only want other people to have real understanding of dhammas. I know that if I arrange a lay-out of the subjects of the Dhamma, it is too easy for people; they will just read and they may not ponder over those subjects at all. People may just look at it and believe that they themselves have understood it. When we study the Dhamma with the aim of really understanding it, we do not have to separate the different chapters, and study them in the right order. When someone really understands a particular subject of the Dhamma, he can understand other subjects as well. He can, for example, understand the rebirth-consciousness; he can understand of what jåti (class or nature) it is, what object it experiences, and by what factor it is conditioned. It is conditioned by kamma-condition, because it is vipåkacitta, citta that is result. Thus, we should consider and understand the words we have heard, we should not just follow the text without any understanding. Then there can be the foundation knowledge for understanding the realities that are appearing, and this understanding is most beneficial, it is the purpose of our study. Therefore I like to suggest people to read the Tipiìaka and Commentaries in addition to listening to lectures and Dhamma discussions. However, everyone should know for himself whether he is able to really understand particular subjects of Dhamma or not, and he should know to what extent he can understand them. He should not merely understand the letter of the Dhamma, or know the amounts of the different classifications of dhammas.” ***** Metta, Sarah ========= 56409 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 1:14am Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn ... christine_fo... Hello Tep, Scott, Howard, Nina, all, Correction of previous post: My memory was incorrect. Robert Aitken Roshi's teacher was Nakagawa Soen Roshi. Here is the anecdote told by Patrick Kearney at the Retreat, regarding the mention of Time in Verse 46 from the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta MN10 'The Foundations of Mindfulness' [sutta quoted again at end of this post]: Patrick: "You get this attitude among meditators ... it's a kind of combination of impatience and despair. 'I want it, and I want it NOW ... but I know that I'm going to have to practice for twenty years before I'm 'worthy'. I'm not worthy now - but sometime in the future, I will be." And [in verse 46], it's like the Buddha is cutting through all this - it's got nothing to do with Time. That's what he is saying here. Forget about Time. It is not about Time. It's about .. This .. Now. It's about Immediacy. It's about coming back Now .. to This Moment. It's .. not .. a question .. of .. Time. A story that Robert Aitkin Roshi told when I was in Hawaii .. He talked about his experience with one of his Teachers - Nakagawa Soen Roshi, who was a legendary contemporary Japanese Zen Teacher: 'In Zen Retreats - they last seven days - and at the end of the first day, Soen Roshi would be giving the final "goodnight" talk, and he would say, "Six Days ... Is Enough!" And the next day, he'd be saying, "Five Days ... Is Enough!" And, finally, at the end of the Retreat, when everybody had run out of time, he'd say, "One Moment ... Is Enough!" ..... And Aitken Roshi paused, and then he said ... "As much as I am ... loathe ... to criticise as venerable a Teacher as Nakagawa Soen Roshi... I think he got it wrong - in this particular instance. One Moment - that's it!" Patrick again: See the difference? Even one moment .. is Enough. It's just 'this'. And it's this quality of immediacy that is fundamental. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Verse 46 from the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta MN10 'The Foundations of Mindfulness': 46. "Bhikkhus, if anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven years, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return. "Let alone seven years, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for six years... for five years... for four years... for three years... for two years... for one year, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return. "Let alone one year, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven months... for six months... for five months... for four months... for three months... for two months... for one month... for half a month, one of two fruits could be expected for him: either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return. "Let alone half a month, bhikkhus. If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven days, one of two fruits could be expected for him: dither final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ metta and peace, Chris 56410 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness Conceptualizations of the SATIPATTHANA SUTTA sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote > Thanks Sarah, that sets it out nicely. I think you have explained > before that there are mild forms of kamma below the level of kamma- > patha. Mild kamma doesn't condition rebirth and (I think I am right > in saying) it doesn't ripen as sense consciousness. But it does > accumulate, and it can lead to kamma-patha in the future. .... S: Yes. Like attachment to coffee or tea or what we see and read now:). .... > S: > So to answer your question about the 3 kinds of akusala kamma- > patha through the mind only: > > - di.t.thi (wrong views) are eradicated at the first stage, > - vyaapaada (i.e. dosa,ill will) at the third stage > - abhijjhaa (covetousness) only at the fourth stage of arahantship. > --------------------------- > > That wasn't exactly my question. I was puzzled by the word "extreme" > in the dictionary's definition of akusala mental kamma-patha. Since a > sotapanna is capable of akusala mental kamma-patha, there seemed to > be an implication that he/she was capable of some kind of "extreme" > wrongdoing. We all know that could not be right: a sotapanna is > capable of akusala kamma-patha (not just mild akusala kamma) but not > of extreme akusala kamma-patha. .... S: I agree that the entry is rather unclear, esp. the ‘extreme’. As you say, the akusala of a sotapanna is greatly reduced. I believe the ‘extreme’ is comparing the akusala of akusala kamma-patha with ordinary akusala which doesn’t bring results. .... > > The answer must be that extreme akusala mental action is very mild by > comparison with the most extreme types of extreme akusala bodily > action and extreme akusala verbal action. The last two types would > fall under items (a) to (d) above). > > I hope I have finally got that right. :-) .... S: I’m not sure. I read it as just comparing akusala kamma-patha with non kamma-patha (thr’ the mind only). Not comparing with bodily and verbal action which would also be classified as ‘extreme’ or ‘not extreme’ in this definition. .... Metta, Sarah p.s I think you and Howard both do fine, so I’ll leave the comments about jargon and so on. We all just do our best here, but there are bound to be the odd misunderstandings and occasional disagreements:-). =============== 56411 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your mail. I also have no doubt that Acharn Sujin and the rest of the group have a real, sincere cetana to help me to walk on the right path to final liberation, and I will not mind at all to take the ‘bitter medicine’; how bitter it may be. The only problem was with me. I could not understand the reason behind or the idea behind most of the questions that Acharn had posed. I also thank you very much for making available for me message # 53845 Dhamma in Cambodia by Nina. One particular sentence drew my attention. “The correct understanding of realities from the beginning is a most important foundation for the development of paññå.” That was the same theme stressed by Acharn and the group. But the problem is how to achieve that ‘correct understanding’? The moment I said “I would try”, immediately I was warned that “trying to do” something was associated with lobha and ditthi and avijja. No one can make anything to arise. Only the 'conditions' can make whatever to arise. Maybe I misunderstood what they said. Again, maybe it was my fault. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > > Thank you very much for letting us know more about > your first discussion > with A.Sujin. I'm most impressed and touched by your > sincerity and > modesty: 56412 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 3:35am Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. jwromeijn Hallo Tep Always good to talk with you. You said "Thinking "We have time enough" is a clinging to yourself" It's neraly impossible for somebody who read many DSG-messages to forget one second the dangers of clinging to oneself. Everythink can lead to atta-belief or is caused by atta-belief. I can for example state Not thinking "We have time enough" is a clinging to yourself or Thinking "We have not time enough" is a clinging to yourself" And how about my remark that "time" is (only) a concept, so not very important? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hello Joop - > > Thinking that you always have enough time is not heedful. > Worrying about not having time is not the point. > Thinking "We have time enough" is a clinging to yourself. > > > > (snipped) 56413 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 4:03am Subject: Trim reminder time again! dsgmods Dear All Recently there have been quite a few messages that have contained long passages of untrimmed material from an earlier post or posts. Members are asked to kindly trim out all material from earlier posts that is not necessary for an understanding of their own comments. (If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you can assume that other members will have seen it.) Thanks for your cooperation Jon and Sarah PS Any comments off-list, please 56414 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 4:44am Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin matheesha333 Hi Tep, everyone > "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed > with unwavering confidence in the Awakened One... unwavering > confidence in the Dhamma... unwavering confidence in the Sangha... > He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: > untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the > wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." [AN X.92] M: It is interesting that he simply doesnt say it is impossible, as he does in the case of an arahath. Sotapannas do have lobha,dosa, moha to some degree which are the roots of akusala kamma, unlike arahanths. So Im not sure if the word 'perfect' should be used here. Extremely good sila maybe a better option. There is one sutta where he says that sotapannas cannot keept misdeeds a secret. This suggests they are capable of some (rare) misdeeds. > Tep: Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggested : "Although this is the standard list > of the four factors of stream-entry, there are other lists that replace the > fourth factor with other factors." > > 1. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones lives at home with an > awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, > openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to > requests, delighting in the distribution of alms." [SN LV.32] > > Or, 2. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is discerning, > endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, > penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress." [SN LV.33] > > Tep's comment : In my opinion the two alternatives are as difficult to > implement as the original "perfect sila" requirement. M: So this is a bit of an issue. Does a sotapanna need to have all these qualities or can one replace the other? How could one possible define Dana as mentioned above - it is to give everything until one is a pauper or is it the occassional act of dana? I dont think it is possible for us to know the limits of these statements since we do not have a Buddha around to tell us. I do however believe that 2, on your list is quite possible and was something which was taught as the amount of panna for lay people in the vyaggapajja sutta. If someone comes with 'perfected' sila to a retreat and if there is intense samatha practices (ideally jhana) followed by certain ways of doing vipassana which focuses mindfulness on what is conducive to insight (experiencing nama-rupa, paccaya), then it is possible that arising and passing away is discerned and also the ending of that arising and passing away. metta Matheesha 56415 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 4:58am Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin scottduncan2 N: "Quite right. A sotaapanna would not proclaim being such. As Rob K once said, this is forbidden for monks. There is a reason: for non-ariyans this is merely a name, it has no real meaning. One cannot understand the wisdom of the sotaapanna if one has not attained to that state oneself. It makes no sense to think of people: who has such or such attainment, who has not. This distracts from attending to the dhamma appearing now. This is already a great task." Dear Nina, Thank you. I agree. And, by the way, what's in a name? (I have one of those "reversible" names where both are surname and given name, and are - when applied to other beings.) I certainly don't mind the reversal. It would be much harder to do with your name, however. Sincerely, Scott. 56416 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and vipaaka scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank, as always, for your kind and cogent response. N: "The commentaries deal with this subject. Is the pleasantness or unpleasantness of an object subjective or not? What are the criteria? We had long debates here on the list. When vipaakacitta is the result of kusala kamma it experiences a desirable object, when of akusala kamma it experiences an undesirable object. But, by thinking about it we cannot always find out the truth about the object. Other conditions make us like or dislike particular objects. We may like an unpleasant object and vice versa. This is dependent on our accumulated inclinations. However, this does not change the truth about kamma and vipaaka. Also, we may think of an object in conventional sense, such as a particular thing. Take a heavy ornament such as a necklace. It is unpleasant through the bodysense, but it is a pleasant visible object experienced through the eyes. We have to consider dhammas experienced one at a time through the six doors. I find it not very helpful to try to find out whather an object is desirable or not, cittas have passed already in a flash, anyway." I read in A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, "[w]hen we consider the aspect of citta as vipaaka, conditioned by acumulated kamma and defilements, we shall see more clearly the true nature of different dhammas," (p.144). Am I correct to understand that, technically, the moment of experiencing a desirable or undesirable object through any of the six doors is vipaaka? In other words vipaaka-proper is meant to refer to the moment of sense cognition - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, body-consciousness of tangible object; and to the moments of receiving and investigating consciousness immediately following the moments of sense cognition. The accompanying valence of the experience (unpleasant, pleasant, or indifferent) reflects the akusula or kusula kamma which is ripening. Sincerely, Scott. 56417 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina jonoabb Hi Mike m. nease wrote: >>If we think about it, however, there are times when kusala occurs >>entirely unexpectedly, without being willed in any way. >> >> > >Are you referring here to 'asankharika' (unprompted) vs. 'sasankharika' >(prompted)? > > An interesting point. No, I didn't have prompted vs. unprompted in mind. What I was referring to was how kusala may arise naturally, right out of the blue, without any preceding intention on our part. It could be prompted or unprompted, but it is spontaneous in the sense of there being no hint of its arising before it actually does so. Does this make sense? Jon 56418 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina scottduncan2 Dear Mike and Jon, May I come in here? "What I was referring to was how kusala may arise naturally, right out of the blue, without any preceding intention on our part. It could be prompted or unprompted, but it is spontaneous in the sense of there being no hint of its arising before it actually does so." I'm interested in learning more about this. I'm pondering this whole idea of conscious intention vis-a-vis what arises naturally. I'm getting that there is no forcing things. Conscious intention to experience kusula doesn't work, as far as I'm learning - that is, is not the mechanism whereby kusula arises. It does strike me that by the time I've formed an intention to do "something kusula," the kusula citta has already arisen. I can't help forming intentions regarding practise. I'm curious as to what you think of how forming an intention fits into the whole process of working for the result. Sincerely, Scott. 56419 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) nilovg Dear Han, op 06-03-2006 04:40 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: I know now why she > asked me that question, “what can you do about fire?” > But at that time, when she asked me that question, the > question came suddenly, out of the blue, without any > reference. I did not know what she wanted or how to > answer, so I gave a very stupid answer. ------- N: Very understandable, this happens when you come for the first time and you are not used yet to her style. Your answer cannot be called stupid, you had no time to prepare. -------- > Han: > When I told Acharn Sujin I was doing cittanupassana, > she asked me how I did it. I said I noted the arise > and fall of the cittas mentioned in Satipatthana sutta > and started enumerating... She said that was > not cittanupassana. ------- N: She likes to emphasize that enumerating or noting cittas is different from awareness of the dhamma appearing righ now. You know that too, but there is another point. There is no rule that one should apply oneself to mindfulness of body first, or mindfulness of feelings, or apply oneself to one of the four applications for some time. It all depends where sati and paññaa go to, nobody can determine this. Thus, there may be conditions for mindfulness of hardness now, and then the next moment mindfulness of attachment. I speak about mindfulness, but, it is more noticing and thinking about what has just appeared and is gone. That does not matter, one can learn the difference between thinking and mindfulness without thinking. Provided one does not try to direct mindfulness to a particular object like citta. -------- H: She said I should note the arising > of eye-consciousness and ear-conscious as they arise, > here and right now, and talked about the “conditions > that condition the arising of these cittas. For > example, for eye-consciousness there must be conditions > such as eye, visual object and light. --------- N: As I quoted Kh Sujin in my letter to Phil: It is this she wanted to help you to understand. The arising and falling away of dhammas cannot be realized before characteristics of nama and rupa are directly understood. She explained conditions so that there can be more understanding of what dhamma is. Dhammas (not speaking about nibbaana now) are conditioned, they cannot be managed. She took as example seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, since these appear now, time and again. For example, just now you are reading on the computer. There is something through eyes appearing, that is visible object. You recognize the letters, and this is thinking with saññaa. This is not seeing. When we hear such examples, we understand in theory, but when we consider them as we go about in daily life, again and again, there are conditions for direct awareness. But we should not try to have it. It unexpectedly arises when there are conditions for it. --------- H: I know the > importance of noting eye-consciousness and > ear-consciousness and I even quoted Malunkyaputta sutta > where the Buddha instructed that in the seen there > will be merely the seen, in the heard there will be > merely the heard, etc. ------- N: Yes, this is for someone who knows dhamma as dhamma, no thing or person in them. -------- H: While I fully appreciate the > importance of contemplating on such cittas as > eye-consciousness and ear-consciousness, I do not > know, still now, why she said the cittanupassana that > I had been doing was not the right cittanupassana. ------- N: I think it is like this: we cannot select cittanupassana. But seeing appears time and again and then its characteristic can be learnt. It has its own characteristic, and seeing is seeing for everybody, no matter how we name it. No matter its is a dog's seeing or a human's seeing. It helps to consider this more. We can learn its characteristic without having to think about it. This is different from noting or noticing. But, this is difficult for everybody. Attachment or aversion may arise, and this has been classified under dhammanupassanaa. The Buddha classified dhammas as four applications in order to show us that any dhamma can be object of mindfulness. There is no need to think of the applications or wonder which application it is. People have different accumulations and it is natural that one person may be aware more often of feelings or of bodily phenomena. It is anattaa. I think this was the point Kh Sujin wanted to convey to you. But it is very good for our discussions if you have more points. What was the discussion about the three vimokkhas? I remember from the Patisambidhamagga. Nina. 56420 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 6:29am Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin .. A Quick Student buddhistmedi... Hi, Han and Sarah - Thank you Sarah for communicating Khun Sujin's theme with Han, which he has summed up very well in his reply: >Han: > One particular sentence drew my attention. "The > correct understanding of realities from the beginning > is a most important foundation for the development of > paññå." That was the same theme stressed by Acharn and > the group. But the problem is how to achieve that > `correct understanding'? The moment I said "I would > try", immediately I was warned that "trying to do" > something was associated with lobha and ditthi and > avijja. No one can make anything to arise. Only the > 'conditions' can make whatever to arise. Maybe I > misunderstood what they said. Again, maybe it was my > fault. > Dear Han, I like your humble and wise attitude very much -- it always our fault first (no finger pointing!). You are a quick student too, partly because you listen without predjudice or a strong bias. Thanks. With appreciation to you both, Tep, your friend. ======= 56421 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 8:38am Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. buddhistmedi... Dear Joop - Yes, it is always nice to "talk" to you. :-) Joop: > Everythink can lead to atta-belief or is caused by atta-belief. > I can for example state > Not thinking "We have time enough" is a clinging to yourself > or > Thinking "We have not time enough" is a clinging to yourself" > Tep: I think, rather, " many things originate from atta-ditthi". But, as you know, not everything does so. ................. Joop: > And how about my remark that "time" is (only) a concept, so not very > important? > Tep: Not so; concept is least important to me. Thank you for your consideration and pure intention that underlies your questions. Yours truly, Tep ===== 56422 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 9:06am Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - I read your message and was not sure how best I should respond to it. I need your advice ! >Phil: Have we found the answer to this question yet? *What kind of citta motivates this question?* We *like* (hint, hint) answers that suit our needs, we like suttas that suit our needs, we cling to Dhamma that we can apply to ourselves in a way that provides a stirringly wholesome conclusion to our life stories. That's where we go wrong, I think. Tep: I guess the answer you are waiting to hear (from me) is one of the two choices: kusala citta, or akusala citta. You then went off tangentially to mumble about the biased selection of suttas that causes clinging and wrong answer. I think you meant 'Tep' mostly. Well, next time please be direct -- I would appreciate it more. If my thought was correct (i.e. your message was directed at Tep) then the answer to Nina's question would obviously be "akusala citta" ! Does such predetermined answer "suit your need" ? I think it does. :-) Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > > >Nina: You ask: what should we do? What kind of citta motivates > this question? You have to find out for yourself. If you do you > > have made progress on the way! > > > > Tep: I like your answer. Yes, indeed, finding out how I may best > apply the Teachings of the Buddha for myself is the key to real > progress. > > Have we found the answer to this question yet? *What kind of citta > motivates this question?* We *like* (hint, hint) answers that suit > our needs, we like suttas that suit our needs, we cling to Dhamma > that we can apply to ourselves in a way that provides a stirringly > wholesome conclusion to our life stories. That's where we go wrong, > I think. (snipped) 56423 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, I thank you very much for your mail, and I am very comfortable with your explanations. With due respect to Acharn Sujin, I think I can learn most of Acharn’s teachings by reading your letters and books. As regards, the three vimokkhas, I just asked Acharn the Pali words for the following phrases that appeared in your book “A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas” on pages 38-39. (1) By predominance ….. ….. ….. (2) By steadfastness ….. ….. ….. (3) By inclination ….. ….. ….. (4) By the way to liberation at the moment of attaining nibbana ….. ….. ….. She first checked with her Thai version. There also no Pali words, only ordinary Thai language. Therefore she asked one of her staff to check with the Dictionary. I was told that the corresponding Pali words are: (1) adipateyya (2) aditthaana (3) abhiniiyata (4) niyyaana Although these Pali words were given to me by the staff (in her presence) if there is any difference in your understanding, please let me know. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > op 06-03-2006 04:40 schreef han tun op > hantun1@...: > I know now why she asked me that question, “what can you do about fire?” 56424 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 2:51pm Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. philofillet Hi Tep > Tep: I guess the answer you are waiting to hear (from me) is one of > the two choices: kusala citta, or akusala citta. I think there is one citta that answers the question "what citta motivates the question 'what should we do?" Well, that's too pessimistic, I guess. It is possible that there is wholesome chanda. But I think we have to acknowledge how much lobha there is. That's the first step. I will be posting a question to Nina that gets at just how much lobha there is, just how soon and how pervasively it swells up. You then went off > tangentially to mumble about the biased selection of suttas that > causes clinging and wrong answer. I think you meant 'Tep' mostly. Well, you were involved in the exchange that conditioned my post, but you are certainly not the only one who clings to suttas. We all do. That's why I used the inclusive "we" in that post and others. Suttas are so attractive and offer such clearcut paths to progress - or so it seems to the lobha-driven mind. I certainly have a lot of attachment to suttas, especially those about the ayatanas in SN 35. It is so easy to read about the processes that arise through the six doors and think that we have acquired some kind of understanding that will allow us to overcome akusala here and now. In my opinion the great value of Abhidhamma is that it is harder to cling to than the suttas, because the terms are all paramattha. Of course there is still clinging and a lot of premature confidence based on a shallow understanding of Abhidhamma. But there are not the prescribed practices that lead us astray when we read about the great ariyans of the Buddha's day and place ourselves next to them in imitation. There is a lot of arrogance when I post these days Tep. Don't worry about it, just accumulated tendenciees playing out through a shallow, foolish fellow. If it bothers you, it can be a sign that there is clinging to pleasant exchange. You can also not read my posts - that's a helpful strategy when we are irritated by people. Phil 56425 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 2:59pm Subject: How immediately does lobha arise? philofillet Hi Nina and all This morning I came across a favourite teaching in a ntoebook from last year - "when caught up in welcoming and rebelling, the mind collects more and more akusala." Last year I wrote this in response - "let not a person revive the past or on the future build his hopes for the past has been left behind and the future has not been reached. Instead, let him see each presently arisen state" which is a teaching that is greatly appreciated by us all, I'm sure. Now I think that the "caught up" happens much more immediately than I have thought in the past. I have learned that there is lobha even with the visible object, even with a moment of hardness. Is that right, Nina? Could you tell us just a little bit more about how immediately lobha arises? This will help me to clarify some points before I get back to you on the "detachment from the beginning" thread next Saturday. (Thanks in passing, Jon, for your post on that topic.) Thanks in advance. Phil 56426 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >Dear Mike and Jon, > >May I come in here? > >"What I was referring to was how kusala may arise naturally, right out >of the blue, without any preceding intention on our part. It could be >prompted or unprompted, but it is spontaneous in the sense of there >being no hint of its arising before it actually does so." > >I'm interested in learning more about this. I'm pondering this whole >idea of conscious intention vis-a-vis what arises naturally. I'm >getting that there is no forcing things. Conscious intention to >experience kusula doesn't work, as far as I'm learning - that is, is >not the mechanism whereby kusula arises. > > Very perceptive comments, if I may say so. 'Conscious intention is not the mechanism whereby kusala arises'. The arising of kusala is conditioned, and it is the conditions for that arising that we find described in the suttas. Conscious intention is not among those factors. The idea that kusala can be summoned up in some manner by dint of our intention is inimical to the teaching on anatta and the conditioned nature of things. Thus even where in the suttas we find language that seems to us suggestive of conscious effort, as for example in the description on the 4 aspects of right effort, we can know that it is to be read in the light of the teaching on anatta and conditionality. >It does strike me that by the time I've formed an intention to do >"something kusula," the kusula citta has already arisen. I can't >help forming intentions regarding practise. > > Intentions form all the time; some are kusala but most are akusala. That's the way things are and the way they're going to be for a long time yet, for all of us ;-)). But little by little dhammas can be known more for what they truly are, and this is the development of the path. Kusala or akusala, it makes no difference! >I'm curious as to what you think of how forming an intention fits into >the whole process of working for the result. > > Forming an intention is real, it arises all the time. So be it. We continue to study and reflect on the teachings, and relate what we have understood to the present moment. Results will come if (and only if) the right causes are in place. Jon 56427 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 7:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) correction hantun1 Dear Nina, (Correction} In my last post I had given four Pali words for “By predominance” etc. (1) adipateyya (2) aditthaana (3) abhiniiyata (4) niyyaana There were some mistakes. Please read them as follows: (1) aadipateyya (2) aditthaana (3) abhiniihaara (4) niyyaana With metta and deepest respect, Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > I thank you very much for your mail, and I am very > comfortable with your explanations. 56428 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 8:15pm Subject: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) hantun1 Dear Nina and other DSG members, Everybody knows that the magga-citta of the sotaapanna eradicates personality belief (atta-ditthi or sakkaaya-ditthi), doubt (vicikicchaa), and clinging to rules and rituals (silabbata-paraamaasa). The magga-citta of the anaagami eradicates sensuous desire (kaama-raaga) and ill-will (vyaapaada); the magga-citta of the arahat eradicates five higher fetters, namely, lust for rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes (ruupa-raaga), lust for rebirth in aruupa-brahma planes (aruupa-raaga), conceit (maana), restlessness (uddhacca), ignorance (avijjaa). My question to Acharn Sujin was, if one has completely eradicated atta-ditthi or sakkaaya-ditthi why can’t one eradicate other fetters as well? For example, supposing I am a sotaapanna and have completely eradicated the notion of “I”, if someone comes and abuses me why do I get angry if there is no “I”. Why should I have to wait until I become an anaagami not to get angry? If there is no “I” why should I wait till I become anaagami to abandon sensual desires pertaining to “I”? (One can ask the same question with other fetters.) Acharn Sujin replied that the nature of kilesas is different. They are not the same. So eradication of one kilesa does not necessarily mean eradication other kilesas as well. Do you have any other explanation, please? With metta and deepest respect, Han 56429 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 3:24pm Subject: Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. buddhistmedi... Dear Phil - I read your reply and felt that you were not a difficult person to talk with after all. Thank you for the explanation that did a good job. Of course, I will write to you again. >Phil: > Suttas are so attractive and offer such clearcut paths to progress - > or so it seems to the lobha-driven mind. Tep: I see your point and also agree with you. ............................... >Phil: > Of course there is still clinging and a lot of premature confidence > based on a shallow understanding of Abhidhamma. But there are not > the prescribed practices that lead us astray when we read about the > great ariyans of the Buddha's day and place ourselves next to them > in imitation. Tep: That is what I would call the biasedness of an Abhidhamika. All dhammas are anatta -- the callings 'my Abhidhamma' and 'his Suttas' reflect an 'atta'. ............................... >Phil: > There is a lot of arrogance when I post these days Tep. Don't > worry about it, just accumulated tendenciees playing out through a > shallow, foolish fellow. If it bothers you, it can be a sign that > there is clinging to pleasant exchange. You can also not read my > posts - that's a helpful strategy when we are irritated by people. Tep: True, it was arrogance or something like unfriendliness or aversion. First I thought your post was unpleasant and did not want to reply to it. But I also thought that it would be rude for me to ignore anyone, so I wrote the reply and felt glad I did. Kind regards, Tep =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > Tep: I guess the answer you are waiting to hear (from me) is one of > > the two choices: kusala citta, or akusala citta. > > I think there is one citta that answers the question "what citta > motivates the question 'what should we do?" Well, that's too > pessimistic, I guess. It is possible that there is wholesome chanda. > But I think we have to acknowledge how much lobha there is. That's > the first step. I will be posting a question to Nina that gets at > just how much lobha there is, just how soon and how pervasively it > swells up. > (snipped) 56430 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 4:41pm Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin buddhistmedi... Hi, Matheesha (and all)- Your discussion is always worthwhile. Thanks. Before going on, I would like to make an observation that my writing in this post may sound like that of Nina and Sarah. But it does not mean I have been completely transformed. :-) With respect to AN X.92 (defining the standard 4 factors of stream- entry), you commented : "Sotapannas do have lobha,dosa, moha to some degree which are the roots of akusala kamma, unlike arahanths. So Im not sure if the word 'perfect' should be used here. Extremely good sila maybe a better option." Tep: I agree that "perfect" in general means that there is nothing better. In that sense the perfect sila(virtue) should be defined only at the Arahant level, where all defilements are completely abandoned, e.g. see Vism. I, 139: "It is the virtue of the Arahants, etc., that should be understood as 'tranquillized purification', because of tranquillization of all distrubance and because of purifiedness." However, the virtue(sila) of a Sotapanna is perfect in the sense of completing the requirements in the Vinaya and Patimokha, i.e. perfected in the kind of virtue required by the training rules, I think. "For the stream-enterer is called 'perfected in the kinds of virtue'; and likewise the once-returner. But the non-returner is called 'perfected in concentration'. And the Arahant is called 'perfected in understanding' [See AN. I, 233] Vism. I, 14. ................................ With respect to SN LV.32 [cleansed of stinginess, freely generous...] and SN LV.33 [endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress], you observed as follows: >Matheesha: >Does a sotapanna need to have all these qualities or can one replace the other? How could one possible define Dana as mentioned above - it is to give everything until one is a pauper or is it the occassional act of dana? I dont think it is possible for us to know the limits of these statements since we donot have a Buddha around to tell us. Tep: I respectfully disagree that we have to have the Buddha around to answer all the questions. Please allow me to volunteer some answers to you (without thinking that Tep is arrogant!). The two suttas above provide alternatives for the 4th factor ('perfect sila') only. The dana is not measured by how much materials (including money) we are giving -- it is measured by the lack of stinginess, etc., as stated in SN LV.32 , these are mental qualities. Otherwise, Bill Gates would be the only qualified person with respect to this factor of generosity. I wonder whether other DSG friends agree with me. ............................... >Matheesha: >I do however believe that 2, on your list is quite possible and was something which was taught as the amount of panna for lay people in the vyaggapajja sutta. Tep: So you should have no problem to become a stream-enterer, given that you have the first three factors (unshakable saddha in the Triple Gem) plus this item ! I also believe that a Sotapanna is not stingy and is highly generous in addition to being "endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. My guess is that when you have attained the "noble, penetrating discernment", any stinginess would be cleansed away :-)) I intentionally leave the last part of your message unanswered (see below). I think other DSG friends can give more interesting comments than I. Warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, everyone > (snipped) > > If someone comes with 'perfected' sila to a retreat and if there is > intense samatha practices (ideally jhana) followed by certain ways of > doing vipassana which focuses mindfulness on what is conducive to > insight (experiencing nama-rupa, paccaya), then it is possible that > arising and passing away is discerned and also the ending of that > arising and passing away. > > metta > > Matheesha > 56431 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 4:58pm Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. One Moment Is Enough -- when? indriyabala Hi, Cris and all - Cris (# 56409) : Patrick: Forget about Time. It is not about Time. It's about .. This .. Now. It's about Immediacy. It's about coming back Now .. to This Moment. It's .. not .. a question .. of .. Time. ... ... See the difference? Even one moment .. is Enough. It's just 'this'. And it's this quality of immediacy that is fundamental. MN 10: ... If anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven days, one of two fruits could be expected for him: dither final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Tep: With all due respect to you, I don't think the Buddha in MN 10 meant the same as Patrick or Nakagawa Soen Roshi. The finite lduration of time needed for the practice of satipatthana is seven days. At any present moment during this finite time span th meditator my attain "one of two fruits.." -- this "one moment" is, perhaps, what Patrick and the other Zen teachers meant ? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, Scott, Howard, Nina, all, > > Correction of previous post: My memory was incorrect. Robert > Aitken Roshi's teacher was Nakagawa Soen Roshi. Here is the anecdote > told by Patrick Kearney at the Retreat, regarding the mention of > Time in Verse 46 from the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta MN10 'The > Foundations of Mindfulness' [sutta quoted again at end of this post]: > (snipped) 56432 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 6:00pm Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. We All Can Do It. indriyabala Dear Nina - It was good that we have a real discussion on Sotapanna. >Nina: >People may have different motives why they want to become a sotaapanna in this life. Is it anxiety about a bad rebirth? Tep, I do not want to pry into your personal life, but perhaps it may be helpful if you give your reasons. But it is all right if you do not want to. I think it may be helpful to discuss this point. We are all striving to reach the goal, and discussions are among the factors that can help us. Tep: I do not have anything to hide -- any question from you is my delight. Yes, it is useful to discuss about motivation and how we (should) strive to reach our goal. The greatest motivation for entering the stream for me is to gain release from births in the lower planes of existence, the sooner the better (yet, I do not perceive any greed in the heart). "A disciple of the noble ones endowed with these four qualities is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." [SN LV.30] "[Some,] with the destruction of the three fetters, are 'one-seed-ers' (ekabijin): after taking rebirth only one more time on the human plane, they will put an end to suffering & stress. "Or, not breaking through to that, not penetrating that, with the destruction of the three fetters they are 'family-to-family-ers' (kolankola): after transmigrating & wandering on through two or three more families (according to the Commentary, this phrase should be interpreted as 'through two to six more states of becoming'), they will put an end to suffering & stress. "Or, not breaking through to that, not penetrating that, with the destruction of the three fetters they are 'seven-times-at-most-ers' (sattakkhattuparama): after transmigrating & wandering on among devas & human beings, they will put an end to stress." [AN III.89] .................. >Nina: >Years ago I used to be anxious about an unhappy rebirth, like Christine once mentioned. Now usually I do not think much about it, but at times I feel anxiety too. However, this is not helpful. Tep: No. It is not helpful that way. But I believe a helpful thinking is naturally free from fear/anxiety because it is associated with gladness and joy that are resulted from our frequent reflections on the four stream-entry factors that we have been developing -- buddhanussati, dhammanussati, sanghanussati, silanussati, caganussati. ........................ >Nina: >As to the passage in the satipatthanasutta, seven years, etc. I do not quite know how to explain this. I think in the Buddha's time it was not as hard as at this time. We do not hear the teachings directly from him. On the other hand, I like Phil's reference to his and Lodewijk's favotite sutta: it can be done, if it would not be possible I would not tell you to do so. Tep: I like Lodewijk's saddha in the Blessed One. I always reread and review the suttas on my CD whenever my confidence in the Buddha or the Teachings are weak, in order to develop the saddha-bala -- and, I tell you, it works every time!. Another way to cheer up is to think that we are many, many times wiser in many ways than people 2549 years ago. The key Teachings of the Buddha are all available today. If I carefully study these dhammas and earnestly practice, according to the eightfold path, I should be able to make it at least to the Sotapanna level. Reaching this goal must be possible without a direct supervision of the Great Sage -- many monks I read about in the suttas only learned a few dhammas from him, and they attained Arahantship (in seclusion) without coming back for another advise from the Lord. If these people of the old time could do it, then I should not have any fear. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > yes, difficult. > People may have different motives why they want to become a sotaapanna in > this life. (snipped) > On the other hand, I like Phil's reference to his and Lodewijk's favotite > sutta: it can be done, if it would not be possible I would not tell you to > do so. > Nina. > op 05-03-2006 23:56 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > (snipped) 56433 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 6:13pm Subject: It's Me! (in disguise) indriyabala Hi, Nina, Cris, Joop, Howard, Phil and others - Since last week, a spammer has been using my yahoo! identity (tepsastri, buddhistmeditator) to post "silly and nasty" messages here and at another Website. Sarah has suggested I use a different ID because the original one is being modulated. Hopefully, this new ID helps getting my replies to the message board faster. Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Tep ====== 56466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] How immediately does lobha arise? nilovg Hi Phil, op 06-03-2006 23:59 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Now I think that the "caught up" happens much more immediately than I > have thought in the past. I have learned that there is lobha even with > the visible object, even with a moment of hardness. Is that right, Nina? > Could you tell us just a little bit more about how immediately lobha > arises? -------- N: You mean, even after seeing visible object of experiencing hardness, I think. There are javanacittas also in sense-door processes, but since cittas arise and pass away so quickly, we do not notice these. They are likely to be mostly akusala cittas. They are followed by mind-door processes of cittas that experience the same sense object and are the same types of javanacittas. It is not possible to pinpoint all these cittas. But it is also possible for such javanacittas to be kusala cittas. When we are generously giving things away there are also cittas which see visible object and after the seeing there may be kusala cittas. In general we can say that when the objective is not daana, siila or mental development, the cittas are akusala cittas. We are bound to cling to seeing, to hearing to all sense impressions. We know this in theory. But before the first stage of tender insight there is no clear understanding of what naama is. Therefore, how could we know precisely the nature of kusala citta and akusala citta which appear now? Nina. 56467 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3), conceit. nilovg Hi Howard, Avijja does not know the true nature of dhammas, and mana is clinging to the importance of self. Avijja, ignorance, accompanies mana, it accompanies all akusala. When you see visible object and there is no realization of its nature of arising and falling away and of dukkha, there is ignorance. When you think yourself better than other people there is ocnceit, but this is not without ignorance. However, the characteristic of conceit is more obvious at that moment. Nina. op 07-03-2006 14:33 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > However, I have not read anywhere an > *official* distinction between mana and avijja, and I am curious to know what > is available in sutta and abhidhamma on that distinction. 56468 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin, and a sutta. nilovg Hi Tep, The Buddha knew what different people needed, and thus, he could also speak with severity. He used the expression: "You foolish man." Or when explaining dhamma he showed cause and effect. This is the wrong Path, or this will lead to an unhappy rebirth. Nina. op 07-03-2006 13:04 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > But in Dutch we have a proverb: doctors who are >> too soft do not heal. >> > > That is similar to : "Spare the stick, spoil the child" in Thai. > Question: Did the Buddha say something along this line of reasoning? > 56469 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 3/7/06 8:48:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, indriyabala@... writes: > > Hi, Howard- > > I looked up the recommended sutta[AN IV.159, Bhikkhuni Sutta]. The > following passages impress me the most: > > 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying > on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' > > 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the > fermentations, has entered &remains in the fermentation-free > awareness-release &discernment-release, having known &realized them > for himself in the here &now.' > > But I do not know how to relate the above to the point that you have > frequently emphasized (We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to > Be). Could you please elaborate on it for me and all Paramattha-dhamma > devotees? Thanks. > > > Respectfully, > > Tep ============================= Some on DSG, every time it is mentioned that "one" should "do" something (like maintain ongoing mindfulness, meditate, and guard the senses), greet that call to action with statements to the effect that such constitutes clinging to rite & ritual and is useless or worse, as it is infected by "I". But, in fact, we start out with self-view, conceit, craving & clinging, and ignorance. And "it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned" and "it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned," and that is the relationship, that is the point. With metta, Howard 56470 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3), conceit. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thank you. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/7/06 10:24:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Avijja does not know the true nature of dhammas, and mana is clinging to the > importance of self. Avijja, ignorance, accompanies mana, it accompanies all > akusala. > When you see visible object and there is no realization of its nature of > arising and falling away and of dukkha, there is ignorance. When you think > yourself better than other people there is ocnceit, but this is not without > ignorance. However, the characteristic of conceit is more obvious at that > moment. > Nina. > op 07-03-2006 14:33 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >However, I have not read anywhere an > >*official* distinction between mana and avijja, and I am curious to know > what > >is available in sutta and abhidhamma on that distinction. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56471 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina mlnease Hi Jon and Scott, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 5:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina I'd like to respond first and briefly to Jon, thanks for your patience Scott: >>Are you referring here to 'asankharika' (unprompted) vs. 'sasankharika' >>(prompted)? > > An interesting point. No, I didn't have prompted vs. unprompted in mind. > > What I was referring to was how kusala may arise naturally, right out of > the blue, without any preceding intention on our part. It could be > prompted or unprompted, but it is spontaneous in the sense of there > being no hint of its arising before it actually does so. Does this make > sense? Well, I'm a bit stuck on the 'prompted vs. unprompted' notion but of course what you say does make some sense; when I think of how rare kusala is though, 'out of the blue' seems unlikely to me to mean simply spontaneous. I think that a moment of kusala--in the sense of completely free of dosa, lobha or moha--must surely be conditioned by prior bhaavanaa? At least for us ordinary puthujjanas (stream enterers and above, please chat amongst yourselves). mike 56472 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 11:28am Subject: Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be ... Here & Now indriyabala Hi, Howard - Your reply was right to the point -- yes, some Paramatthadhamma devotees have a rigid, unbreakable view on "doing" or "practice" according to the noble eightfold path. They say: do nothing beyond listening & considering the dhammas with right understanding, then wait for the moment when all the "uncontrollable" path factors may arise all by themselves. >Howard: >Some on DSG, every time it is mentioned that "one" should "do" >something (like maintain ongoing mindfulness, meditate, and guard the >senses), greet that call to action with statements to the effect that >such constitutes clinging to rite & ritual and is useless or worse, >as it is infected by "I". Tep: I knew that nobody else could summarize it better! .......................... >Howard: >But, in fact, we start out with self-view, conceit, craving & >clinging, and ignorance. And "it is by relying on craving that >craving is to be abandoned" and "it is by relying on conceit that >conceit is to be abandoned," and that is the relationship, that is >the point. Tep: Indeed, that has been the "whole point" that is hardest to get across, even after so many discussions in the past. 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here &now.' The fermentation-free awareness, for example, is "where we want to be". And starting from where we are now, in order to get "there" we must "do" a lot of things to end the asavas before we may finally know and realize such awareness in the here & now. Regards, Tep, your friend. =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 3/7/06 8:48:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > > > Hi, Howard- > > > > I looked up the recommended sutta[AN IV.159, Bhikkhuni Sutta]. The > > following passages impress me the most: > > > > 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying > > on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' > > > > 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the > > fermentations, has entered &remains in the fermentation-free > > awareness-release &discernment-release, having known &realized them > > for himself in the here &now.' > > (snipped) 56473 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin, and a sutta. indriyabala Hi, Nina - > > Hi Tep, > The Buddha knew what different people needed, and thus, he could also >speak with severity. He used the expression: >"You foolish man." Or when explaining > dhamma he showed cause and effect. This is the wrong Path, or this >will lead to an unhappy rebirth. > Nina. Yes. I recall reading those suttas too. Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ======= 56474 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 0:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) matheesha333 Hi Pablo, > >I'd like to thank Matheesha for his narration of his first person > >experience in jhanas. Thank you for your kind words. My effort is has not been in vain! > I think you'll soon learn that there are many, many people on internet > discussion groups who think they've attained jhana. M: ..and as expected the group that will take it the wrong way as well. Interesting how praise and blame arise one conditioning the next, arising one after the other. The worldly conditions. Its an effort not to moved by either. So there are people trying to warn you, and telling you that there are better things to give rise to faith! I think the better way to give rise to faith, is to experience the first jhana yourself - this is something Ven Ananda mentions in the suttas. Sila-->Samadhi-->Panna sadda-->viriya-->sati-->samadhi-->panna metta Matheesha 56475 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 1:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) indriyabala Hi, Matheesah (and Pablo) - You two have had an interesting conversation! Matheesha to Pablo: > > So there are people trying to warn you, and telling you that there > are better things to give rise to faith! I think the better way to > give rise to faith, is to experience the first jhana yourself - this > is something Ven Ananda mentions in the suttas. > > Sila-->Samadhi-->Panna > sadda-->viriya-->sati-->samadhi-->panna > Tep: There is a gap in the dhamma space that you have created in the conversation, Math. Can you close the gap between the first jhana and the five faculties(Indriya) for me, please? Regards, Tep, your friend ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Pablo, > > > >I'd like to thank Matheesha for his narration of his first person > > >experience in jhanas. > > Thank you for your kind words. My effort is has not been in vain! > > > I think you'll soon learn that there are many, many people on > internet > > discussion groups who think they've attained jhana. > > M: ..and as expected the group that will take it the wrong way as > well. Interesting how praise and blame arise one conditioning the > next, arising one after the other. The worldly conditions. Its an > effort not to moved by either. (snipped) 56476 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:02pm Subject: Re: How immediately does lobha arise? philofillet Hi Nina > There are javanacittas also in sense-door processes, but since cittas arise > and pass away so quickly, we do not notice these. OK. But we know from the teaching they are there, we understand in an intellectual way what is going on. This can help as long as we don't mistake it for direct understanding. > They are likely to be mostly akusala cittas. They are followed by mind-door > processes of cittas that experience the same sense object and are the same > types of javanacittas. "Likely to be mostly" sounds a little generous! "With rare exceptions, bound to be" is closer, in my opinion. I think this process helps us to understand better why, in his third discourse, the Buddha taught that the ayatanas are "burning" with akusala. He was speaking to a group of men who used to follow fire worship rites, so he used that simile, but it also gets at the tendency to akusala that rules the processes. > It is not possible to pinpoint all these cittas. But it is also possible for > such javanacittas to be kusala cittas. When we are generously giving things > away there are also cittas which see visible object and after the seeing > there may be kusala cittas. OK, I will hopefully bear this in mind. As you know, these days it is the prevalence of akusala that is coming to the forefront for me, but it will not always be so, I suspect. But it is a necessary step - no, more than a step, it is an understanding that always has to be there or we will go wrong with practices that overlook the teaching of anatta (second discourse) and prevalance of akusala (third discourse) as we rush in enthusiasm to understanding the Noble truths laid out in the first discourse. I place a lot on what N. Thera (I forget which one) called "THe Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha" in a small book he wrote. Available on line. They are very sobering and help us to re-align our approach to Dhamma towards patience. > In general we can say that when the objective is not daana, siila or mental > development, the cittas are akusala cittas. I think that the surface objective can be sila or dana or bhavana, but when it is rooted in lobha, it is not so. So we are back to the prevalence of lobha, and the need for patience. > We are bound to cling to seeing, to hearing to all sense impressions. I like this "bound to" very much (more lobha!) "Bound to" gets to the pwerful conditionality of it as well as the more conventional meaning of "we are very likely to" We > know this in theory. But before the first stage of tender insight there is > no clear understanding of what naama is. Therefore, how could we know > precisely the nature of kusala citta and akusala citta which appear now? We cannot. Patience. I have been finding that reflecting on what is vipaka citta vs. what is not is more helpful than reflecting on what is kusala vs. what is akusala. Thanks again for all you feedback, Nina. Phil 56477 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 6:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) lbidd2 Howard: "I agree with you, Larry. When I write of "sense of self" I am also speaking of mana, and not atta-ditthi. What is not clear to me, however, is the distinction between mana and avijja. I have my own suspicians of what avijja involves, and, as I see it, it is more far reaching than the sense of a personal self (of "me" and "mine"). To me, avijja also includes a multiplistic, separatist reification that senses self/identity/own-being/core in all phenomena, both conventional and directly experienced. However, I have not read anywhere an *official* distinction between mana and avijja, and I am curious to know what is available in sutta and abhidhamma on that distinction." Hi Howard (Han Tun & Nina), In my undertanding ignorance doesn't reify, it simply fails to see. I would place reification with the perversions (vipallasa) of perception, views, and consciousness. Conceit is not a perversion; it has its own unique quality which, in my opinion only, is intimately associated with the logic of desire and is the basic assumption of self. There can be momentary desire without conceit but in the end they sink or swim together. Here is an interesting quotation from CMA, p.95: "Both of these factors [wrong view and conceit] are found only in the cittas rooted in greed, for they involve some degree of holding to the five aggregates. However, the two exhibit contrary qualities, and thus they cannot coexist in the same citta. Wrong view occurs in the mode of misapprehending, i.e. interpreting things in a manner contrary to actuality; conceit occurs in the mode of self-evaluation, i.e. of taking oneself to be superior, equal, or inferior to others. Whereas wrong view is necessarily present in the four cittas rooted in greed accompanied by wrong view, conceit is not a necessary concomitant of the four greed-rooted cittas dissociated from wrong view. It does not arise apart from these cittas, but these cittas can occur without conceit." Larry 56435 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control or No control? mr39515 We live in the world of conditions else causation.... Thus there is NO Control.... in fact there is no Self to control as all phenomena arises by itself if the conditions permits. If there is such a control... then you can control yourself to be happy all the time. So again, can you control to have pleasant feeling all the time ??? Having say this, life is also NOT fated. We can still create opportinities or conditions for good/bad kamma to arise. Past Kamma + Present Kamma = Future Kamma... As for your story.... as long as conditions permits, seeing consciousness arises. If there are the conditions of: 1. Eyes Base 2. Visible Object 3. Light 4. Attention Thus seeing consciousness arises... From present kamma, you can be at the right place, right time, doing the right thing and you can conditions good kamma to arise. It is just like spending more time at the temple and your seeing consciousness arises are most probably be pleasant. And vise vessa if you were at the wrong place, wrong time and doing the wrong thing, as this will provide conditions for bad kamma to arise. So "to control", perhaps the correct word would be to condition.... No matter the visible object is good/bad, feeling arises by itself again (without control). For example, a person who go to the temple will most probably providing conditions for good seeing consciousness to arises as he will most probably see monks. However this does not necessary means pleasant feeling will arise. Even one see a good object such as a monk, unpleasant feeling could also arise. One can see a monk and still get angry due to other conditions. As a summary, there is no control. There is only Anica, Dukha, Anata.... Impermanance, Suffering and non-self. Hope this helps metta mr39515 --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > In your last post you had written: > “Dhammas (not speaking about nibbaana now) are > conditioned, they cannot be managed.” I take it that > "they cannot be managed" also mmeans "they cannot be > controlled". <...> 56436 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) lbidd2 Han Tun: "why do I get angry if there is no "I"." Hi Han, I would say "I" is conceit (maana), not self view (sakkaaya di.t.thi). Self view is the web of ideas, beliefs, and opinions that we use to theorize about, rationalize, and explain self. But "I" as the rationale (reason for being) of desire itself is conceit. There is a lot of thinking involved in self view, while conceit is auto-matic :-) Larry 56437 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 11:23pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction contd) We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Ones, Chapter II, §1-5): * "Monks, I know not of any other single thing of such power to cause the arising of sensual lust, if not already arisen, or, if arisen, to cause its more-becoming and increase, as the feature of beauty (in things). In him who pays not wise attention to the feature of beauty, sensual lust, if not already arisen, arises; or, if already arisen, is liable to more becoming and increase. Monks, I know not of any other single thing of such power to cause the arising of malevolence, if not already arisen, or, if arisen, to cause its more-becoming and increase, as the repulsive feature (of things). In him who pays not wise attention to the repulsive feature, malevolence, if not already arisen, arises; or, if arisen, it is liable to more-becoming and increase." * It may seem to us that a desirable object is the fundamental cause of attachment and an unpleasant object the fundamental cause of aversion(1). However, the real cause of akusala is not in the object which is experienced. Whether akusala citta or kusala citta arises, depends on one’s accumulations. There can be wise attention or unwise attention to the object, depending on conditions. When there is wise attention to the object we see the value of kusala and we have confidence in kusala. However, more often akusala citta arises and then there is unwise attention to the object. It is possible to change our habits and develop kusala. Gradually our accumulations can be changed through the study of the Dhamma and the development of right understanding. *** 1) Atthasåliní I, Part II, Chapter I, 75. ***** (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 56438 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 6, 2006 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) hantun1 Dear Larry, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. From your explanation [I would say "I" is conceit (maana), not self view (sakkaaya di.t.thi)], I have noted that a person who has already eradicated (sakkaaya di.t.thi) still has the notion of “I”. Han --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Han Tun: "why do I get angry if there is no "I"." > Hi Han, > I would say "I" is conceit (maana), not self view > (sakkaaya di.t.thi). 56439 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I look at the following two statements contained in your presentation. (1) “When there is wise attention to the object we see the value of kusala and we have confidence in kusala.” Han: Here, I take it that wise attention conditions the arising of kusala cittas. (2) “However, more often akusala citta arises and then there is unwise attention to the object.” Han: Here, I take it that akuisala citta conditions the arising of unwise attention. Han’s question: Wise attention and unwise attention on one hand, and kusala citta and akusala citta on the other; which comes first? With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== 56440 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I look at the following two statements contained in > your presentation. > > (1) “When there is wise attention to the object we see > the value of kusala and we have confidence in kusala.” > > Han: Here, I take it that wise attention conditions > the arising of kusala cittas. .... S: I would put it that whenever kusala cittas of any kind arise, there is wise attention (yoniso manasikara) at that time already. ... > > (2) “However, more often akusala citta arises and then > there is unwise attention to the object.” > > Han: Here, I take it that akuisala citta conditions > the arising of unwise attention. .... S: Again, whenever akusala cittas arise, there is unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara) already. .... > Han’s question: > Wise attention and unwise attention on one hand, > and kusala citta and akusala citta on the other; > which comes first? .... S: Wise and unwise attention accompany the kusala and akusala cittas. They refer to the kind of mind door vithi (process) in which kusala or akusala cittas arise. You may also like to look at U.P. under 'manasikara'....Pls feel very free to disagree, comment or ask more anytime:). Metta, Sarah ======= 56441 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina and other DSG members, > > Everybody knows that the magga-citta of the sotaapanna > eradicates personality belief (atta-ditthi or > sakkaaya-ditthi), doubt (vicikicchaa), and clinging to > rules and rituals (silabbata-paraamaasa). The > magga-citta of the anaagami eradicates ... Hallo Han We have till now not yet communicated, maybe because what interests me is not within the frame of reference of mrs Sujin but about that framework. Of course: insofar it has to do with my buddhist path. My eyes were caught the first words of your message; "Everybody knows", is life so easy that everybody knows this? I have some comments on your remark that "the magga-citta of the sotaapanna eradicates personality belief (atta-ditthi or sakkaaya- ditthi), doubt (vicikicchaa), and clinging to rules and rituals (silabbata-paraamaasa)." Etc for the other fetters. It's not according the orthodoxy but I'm not sure the sequence of the releasing of the ten fetters is always the same for different persons. How do we know this is the only possible sequence? And do we have - as wordlings - all the fetters? I for example never have had "lust for rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes or lust for rebirth in aruupa-brahma planes" But most important - to me - is the question: do you have the right priorities? Is it important to think about questions what will happen with a streamenterer and what a streamenterer had to do for getting (directly or in steps) for getting a arahat? That are - in my view - topics for a streamenterer and not for a wordling. Isn't it better to forget this theory and just practice the Noble Eightfold Path? Metta Joop 56442 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: Thanks for your kind feedback and contributions. > One particular sentence drew my attention. “The > correct understanding of realities from the beginning > is a most important foundation for the development of > paññå.” That was the same theme stressed by Acharn and > the group. But the problem is how to achieve that > ‘correct understanding’? The moment I said “I would > try”, immediately I was warned that “trying to do” > something was associated with lobha and ditthi and > avijja. No one can make anything to arise. Only the > 'conditions' can make whatever to arise. Maybe I > misunderstood what they said. Again, maybe it was my > fault. .... S: It’s certainly not a matter of ‘fault’ and I’m impressed that this is the sentence that attracted your attention here. I think these points are very subtle and very much go against our usual way of thinking and understanding. Indeed, I believe this point you have highlighted really gets at the heart of the Buddha’s teaching. When we really appreciate that it’s not a question of “trying to do”, the path becomes more and more straight forward as I see it. To elaborate a little further, there’s no need to ‘try to do’ anything at all, even to be aware, because every moment, every dhamma is conditioned already as you point out. For example, now we’re sitting at our computers and there’s touching the keyboard. If we have an idea of touching another object at this moment or experiencing any particular object in order for understanding to arise, it means there’s no awareness of the present dhamma (reality) appearing. There’s an idea at such a time that I can touch another object or experience something different, which is impossible. Even when we are thinking about developing kusala states or trying to have them arise by intention, it’s like we’re preparing for another moment in the future. Similarly, when we mark or label states that have just past, it’s like we’re tracking those dhammas which have already gone. Instead, if there’s understanding now of a reality such as touching or tangible object, seeing or visible object or thinking as it appears, slowly these dhammas can begin to be known as dhatus (elements). There have been some recent discussions on sotapannas. As I see it, this is the only way to become a sotapanna, i.e by developing detachment towards whatever dhamma is conditioned at this moment, not by limiting or restricting the field of objects in anyway with a lurking idea of self. When we focus on the rupas of the body, ‘do cittanupassana’ or attend to the particular mental factors we’d like to see arise such as metta, I don't believe there is any understanding of conditioned dhammas. As the oft-quoted lines in the Anattalakkhana sutta stress, the Buddha said that ‘If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to disease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' And so on for the other khandhas. But, the khandhas are anatta and they cannot be made to arise by will. As soon as there is attachment to particular dhammas arising, to results of any kind or there’s any idea of ‘trying to do’ in order for there to be understanding at this moment, its not any awareness of the present dhamma appearing. This is true whether the ‘trying to do’ is by sitting in a special way or place, focussing on cittas, reading texts, listening to A.Sujin, reading DSG(!) or anything else with an idea of willing the present dhamma to be of any particular kind, however noble those intentions might appear. I’ll look forward to any comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ======== 56443 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin sarahprocter... p.s Han, I know you're probably very over-loaded here already, but sometime you may also like to look at posts saved in U.P. under 'anatta and control' and also perhaps 'Satipatthana Sutta'. I'll be very glad to hear your feedback on any old posts too! S. 56444 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:48am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 60 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 60. [(ii) Formations] Intro: Avijjaapaccayaa sa²nkhaara: ignorance conditions formations. Sa²nkhaara, in this context, means what is forming up, preparing, conditioning. Instead of sa²nkhaara also the term aabhisa²nkhaara is used. Aabhi is used in the sense of preponderance. Aabhisa²nkhaaraa is in this context volition or kamma formation. The text distinguishes two triads.The first triad is: formation of merit, of demerit and of the imperturbable (aruupavacaara kusala). The second triad is: the doorways through which kamma is performed: the doorways of body, speech and mind. ---------- Text Vis.: 'Formations' are the six mentioned in brief above thus, 'the three, namely, formations of merit, etc., and the three, namely, the bodily formation, etc.'; ------- N: The three formations are: the formation of merit, puññaabhisa²nkhaaraa, of demerit, apuññaabhisa²nkhaaraa and of the imperturbable, aneñjpuññaabhisa²nkhaaraa (aruupavacaara kusala). Kamma can be performed through bodily action, through speech and through the mind-door, and with regard to this the terms bodily formation, kaayasa"nkhaaro, verbal formation, vaciisa"nkhaaro, and mental formation, cittasa"nkhaaro, are used. The Tiika elaborates on puñña, kusala or merit. Here, it is merit, because it purifies (punaati) from the result of akusala and from the suffering (dukkha) of defilements . Because of his desire for happiness he performs kusala, and thus fulfills this desire; he performs what is worthy of honour (pujjabhava.m) and that is puñña, merit. Puñña can be understood in conventional sense (nirutti) with regard to the person who fulfills this and performs what is honorable. The term puññaabhisa²nkhaara, formation of merit, is used in the sense of preparing or forming up fruit for oneself, the Tiika explains. The opposite of puñña, merit, is apuñña, demerit, and the meaning of apuññaabhisa²nkhaara should be understood accordingly. As to the formation of the imperturbable, aaneñjaabhisa²nkhaara, the Tiika explains that he is not perturbed (na iñjati) by what is contrary to samaadhi, and this is the formation of the imperturbable, of aruupaavacaara kusala citta. This citta is not disturbed by ruupa. The Tiika then deals with the sutta sources of the first triad and the second triad. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² Ch 5, 647, has a similar passage. We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion²: <647. Herein, the first triad is taken in accordance with the Parivimamsanasutta (S II 80). For therein it is said: ³If he forms a formation of merit, consciousness achieves merit; if he forms a formation of demerit, consciousness achieves demerit; if he forms a formation of the imperturbable, consciousness achieves the imperturbable². The second triad is taken in accordance with the Vibhangasutta next to that [footnote: this is: S II, 4]. (It is permissable to say that it is taken in accordance with the method of the Sammaditthisutta, M I 54, too.) For therein it is said: ³Three, bhikkhus are the formations. Which three? The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation.² 648. But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages outside [the dispensation], nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conquerer. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner in the Abhidhamma and in the suttas....> ------------ Text Vis.: but in detail here the [first] three formations are twenty-nine volitions, that is to say, the formation of merit consisting of thirteen volitions, counting the eight sense-sphere profitable volitions that occur in giving, in virtue, etc., -------- The eight cetanaas or kammas, arising with eight types of mahaakusala cittas, four of which are with wisdom, four without it, four with happy feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four which are unprompted and four prompted. These can motivate the ten bases of meritorious actions, puññakiriyavatthu (mentioned by the Expositor p. 210, 211): charity, siila (this includes observing precepts, the monk¹s sila, etc. and also the guarding of the sense-doors), mental development (including samatha and vipassanaa, ), paying respect, dutifulness and helping, the sharing of one¹s merit, appreciation of others¹ kusala, explaining the Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma, rectifying one¹s views. -------- Text Vis.: and the five fine-material profitable volitions that occur in development [of meditation]; ------- N: The term Œdevelopment¹ is the translation of the Pali bhaavanaa. The rupaavacaara kusala cittas and the aruupavacaara kusala cittas are not included in the ten bases of meritorious actions which are performed by kusala cittas of the sense sphere. There are five fine-material profitable volitions, accompanying the rupaavacaara kusala cittas of the five stages of jhaana. --------- Text Vis.: then the formation of demerit consisting of the twelve unprofitable volitions that occur in killing living things, etc.; ------- N: There are twelve akusala cittas: eight types of lobha-muulacittas, rooted in moha and lobha, two types of dosa-muulacittas rooted in moha and dosa and two types which have moha as their only root: one accompanied by doubt and one accompanied by restlessness. The akusala cetanaas accompanying these akusala cittas are the formations of demerit. They can motivate ten kinds of akusala kamma patha. ------ Text Vis.: then the formation of the imperturbable consisting in the four profitable volitions associated with the immaterial sphere, which occur in development [of those meditations]. -------- N: These are the four aruupaavacara kusala cetanaa accompanying the aruupaavacara kusala cittas of the four stages of aruupa jhaana. As the Vis. states: the [first] three formations are twenty-nine volitions. Thus, these are: the formation of merit consisting of thirteen volitions, counting the eight sense-sphere profitable volitions and the five fine-material profitable volitions, accompanying the rupaavacaara kusala cittas of the five stages of ruupa-jhaana; the formation of demerit, consisting of the twelve unprofitable volitions; the formation of the imperturbable consisting in the four profitable volitions associated with the aruupaavacaara kusala cittas of the four stages of aruupa-jhaana. Thus, there are twenty-nine volitions in all which are aabhisa²nkhaara. Conclusion: All kinds of practice that do not lead out of the cycle of birth and death are wrong practice: micchaa pa.tipadaa. Kusala kamma without any understanding of realities does not lead to the end of defilements and is thus wrong practice. As the Tiika states about puñña: Because of his desire for happiness he performs kusala, and thus fulfills this desire; he performs what is honourable and that is merit. And as it also states: puñña, merit, in the sense of preparing or forming up fruit for oneself, is abhisa²nkhaara, and this is puññaabhisa²nkhaara. One may perform kaamaavacara kusala, ruupaavacaara kusala or aruupaavacaara kusala with the desire to have rebirth in happy planes. Then one is still attached to the cycle. When vipassanaa is developed one wants to eradicate ignorance and all defilements. The Bodhisatta developed the perfections with the aim to eradicate defilements and that is the right practice leading to the end of the cycle. ****** Nina. 56445 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin, and a sutta. nilovg Dear Han, No need to answer all my mails, it will be too much. But rour remarks inspire me to consider more for myself. I also like to make the medicine less bitter for you! I try. But in Dutch we have a proverb: doctors who are too soft do not heal. op 06-03-2006 11:57 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > message # 53845 Dhamma in Cambodia by Nina. > One particular sentence drew my attention. “The > correct understanding of realities from the beginning > is a most important foundation for the development of > paññå. That was the same theme stressed by Acharn and > the group. But the problem is how to achieve that > correct understanding’? The moment I said “I would > try, immediately I was warned that “trying to do > something was associated with lobha and ditthi and > avijja. No one can make anything to arise. Only the > 'conditions' can make whatever to arise. _______ N: Correct understanding in the beginning. Even when we consider deeply one word or expression, and relate this to the present moment, there is a good and solid foundation. That is why Acharn said: seeing now is so amazing, it is conditioned by eyesense and visible object. We take this so for granted, but it is beneficial to come to understand the falling together of conditions more deeply. This morning I heard: There are bhavangacittas, lifecontinuum, who do not experience an object impinging on one of the six doors, and then the sense-door adverting-consciousness arises, so that a process begins of cittas that experience a sense object. She said: it is amazing and we would not know without an enlightened Buddha. She said that it is important to learn that cittas can be of four jaatis: kusala, akusala, kiriya and vipaaka. We can consider more the reality of citta, it is dhamma, not us. If there were no citta no object could appear. Just considering what citta is is beneficial. Last night I was reading a sutta given on the Pali list: Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Ones, Ch XIX, Trifiling(I, 35): Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye sutvaa dhamma.m > dhaarenti; atha kho eteva sattaa bahutaraa ye sutvaa dhamma.m na > dhaarenti. > ... Indeed, monks, just so few are those beings who, after they have heard the teachings, bear them in mind... more numerous are those who, after they have heard the teachings, do not bear them in mind. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye dhaataana.m > dhammaana.m attha.m upaparikkhanti; atha kho eteva sattaa bahutaraa > ye dhaataana.m dhammaana.m attha.m na upaparikkhanti. > ... Indeed, monks, just so, few are those beings who > examine the meaning of the teachings they have born in mind... more numerous are those who do not do so. ---------- Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye > atthama~n~naaya dhammama~n~naaya dhammaanudhamma.m pa.tipajjanti; > atha kho eteva sattaa bahutaraa ye atthama~n~naaya dhammama~n~naaya > dhammaanudhamma.m na pa.tipajjanti. Indeed, monks, just so few are those beings who, understanding the teachings and their meaning, practise in accordance with the Dhamma... more numerous are those who do not do so. I added a remark: When we reflect on this sutta, we can think of our own case. Instead of: few are beings who.., more numerous are beings who..,we can think thus: few are the moments that we bear the dhamma we hear in mind, examine the meaning, practise in accordance with the dhamma. Instead of beings we can understand: cittas. This is an exhortation to use the opportunity we have now in this human plane to carefully examine the Dhamma, each word, with yoniso manaasikaara. Actually we find in this sutta the four requisites for enlightenment: meeting the right person (in this sutta: few are the beings who have a chance to see the Tathaagata), listening and carefully considering, practice in accordance with the Dhamma; dhammanudhamma pa.ti padaa. We do not meet the Buddha, but who sees the Dhamma sees him. No need to think of trying or forcing, just quietly considering and examining the daily realities that appear. At the same time it is good to know that we often mislead ourselves. Taking for noble and righteous what is full of the idea of self. Even when we consider suttas. Therefore we should be grateful to Acharn to remind us. Otherwise we may not know. Nina. 56446 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. nilovg Hallo Joop, op 06-03-2006 12:35 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > It's neraly impossible for somebody who read many DSG-messages to > forget one second the dangers of clinging to oneself. > Everythink can lead to atta-belief or is caused by atta-belief. ------- N: I listened to the tape and here was a short passage about your question on emptiness. I hesitated to give it to you, because I am not sure that it is too bitter (I like to make bitter medicine sweet). Acharn gives answers different from what people expect or she does not answer the question. She has the intention to make people consider more, that is her objective. She said: 'There is he who thinks about emptiness, and then the thinking is not empty.' I find it useful when we ask a question or think, to come to realize how much self is involved with this thinking. Nina. 56447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and vipaaka nilovg Dear Scott, op 06-03-2006 14:20 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > I read in A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, "[w]hen we consider the > aspect of citta as vipaaka, conditioned by acumulated kamma and > defilements, we shall see more clearly the true nature of different > dhammas," (p.144). Am I correct to understand that, technically, the > moment of experiencing a desirable or undesirable object through any > of the six doors is vipaaka? > > In other words vipaaka-proper is meant to refer to the moment of sense > cognition - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, body-consciousness of > tangible object; and to the moments of receiving and investigating > consciousness immediately following the moments of sense cognition. ------- N: Yes, this is correct. Only the word: experiencing an object through any of the six doors: this can refer to the whole process, all cittas (including the javanas) experience the object. But the word sense-cognition I use for seeing, hearing, thus for vipaakacittas. ------- Scott: The accompanying valence of the experience (unpleasant, pleasant, or > indifferent) reflects the akusula or kusula kamma which is ripening. ------- N: I would say: the reaction to the object in the wholesome way or unwholesome way is at the moments of javana cittas. These arise because of accumulated inclinations. There is no evaluation, this is afterwards when one thinks more about the object. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas have no time to evaluate anything. And also the evaluation when there is thinking afterwards is done either by kusala cittas or akusala cittas that are conditioned by accumulated inclinations. Ripening is used in connection with kamma that produces a result. Not all akusala cittas are of the intensity of kamma patha. As Sarah said, liking tea or coffee is not akusala kamma patha. Nina. 56448 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:57am Subject: Re: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, Tep & all, Firstly, I liked Tep's post (with the textual details) on stream-entry which you responded to. --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Tep, everyone > > > "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed > > with unwavering confidence in the Awakened One... unwavering > > confidence in the Dhamma... unwavering confidence in the Sangha... > > He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: > > untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by > the > > wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." [AN X.92] > > M: It is interesting that he simply doesnt say it is impossible, as > he does in the case of an arahath. Sotapannas do have lobha,dosa, > moha to some degree which are the roots of akusala kamma, unlike > arahanths. So Im not sure if the word 'perfect' should be used here. > Extremely good sila maybe a better option. .... S: I think it's referring to the adhi-sila which is 'perfected' at the stage of sotapanna and which leads to adhi-citta, the perfection of concentration at the stage of anagami. As you say, the sotapanna still has lobha, dosa, moha and akusala kamma, but the precepts will never be broken again and there will never be conditions for a low rebirth again. ... >There is one sutta where > he says that sotapannas cannot keept misdeeds a secret. This suggests > they are capable of some (rare) misdeeds. ... S: Yes. I was just discussing this with Ken H under akusala kamma-patha. .... > > 1. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones lives at home with > an > > awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, > > openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to > > requests, delighting in the distribution of alms." [SN LV.32] > > > > Or, 2. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is discerning, > > endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, > > penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress." [SN LV.33] > > > > Tep's comment : In my opinion the two alternatives are as difficult > to > > implement as the original "perfect sila" requirement. > > M: So this is a bit of an issue. Does a sotapanna need to have all > these qualities or can one replace the other? ... S: No more stinginess at all, perfect understanding of the nature of dhammas. .... >How could one possible > define Dana as mentioned above - it is to give everything until one > is a pauper or is it the occassional act of dana? ... S: The eradication of stinginess and be 'freely generous' doesn't mean everything has to be given away. We're talking about the mental states, not the living appearances. I don't think it's correct to equate the one with the other, do you? Good to see your posts again. Your one on laylife which you f/w contained a lot of good textual material, thx. Metta, Sarah p.s How was your trip to Sri Lanka? I vaguely remember writing to you just as you were leaving. I wonder if you reflected further or discussed any of the points from the discussions here while you were there? ======== 56449 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inducement sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > What is the meaning in the difference between asakhaarika and > sasankhaarika? What does it mean the citta can arise "without being > dependent on inducement?" Or "dependent on inducement?" What is > "inducement?" I'm reading in the first appendix of A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas. .... S: I think another simple way to think of asankhaarika (unprompted) and sasankharika (prompted) is as being 'strong' and 'weak'. For example, sometimes we see someone in need and just give instantly with 'strong' dana. At other times, we may need a lot of encouragement and thought firs and then the giving is 'weak'. Metta, Sarah ========= 56450 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] about DSG sarahprocter... Hi Pablo, --- Pablo wrote: > every one.for example,I liked the "panna " and " sanna" threads of > dec05/jun06,but also "why study?" at the beginning of the archive. > the great thing is this opportunity itself of listening to deep dhamma > talks , because I haven't this chance where I live. > I'll post rarely because my level of knowledge is very lower than DSG's > average. > I realize I'm here mostly to learn. anyway, when I've something > intelligent to say, I'll say it. :) ... S: As Nina said, pls don't compare levels of knowledge. Some of us talk a lot, but that doesn't mean there's a lot of knowledge:). Have you also tried listening to the (edited) audio discussions to be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org? You may find these helpful. (If you don't have broadband and it's difficult to download, we can send out cds in mp3 format to you or anyone else). Also, if you'd like a copy of A.Sujin's Abhidhamma book, 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', pls let me or Sukin know off-list. Meanwhile, pls keep reading the archives and letting us know which topics you find interesting as you did here. Metta, Sarah ===== 56451 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe Angst? Re: Tumult? sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Howard,(Phil in passing), --- kenhowardau wrote: > As I understood K Sujin, she was saying that hopelessness and despair > are terms that have meaning only when there is the idea of self. When > we are aware of reality as dhammas arising, performing their > functions and falling away, hopelessness and despair do not come into > it. They come into it only when there are thoughts of, "What about > me? Where do I belong in all of this?" ... S: This is a good explanation of it. To quote from a recent extract from 'Cetasikas': "Through right understanding we will gradually learn to attach less importance to 'self', and as a consequence we will be inclined to think more of other people's happiness instead of our own happiness." This is the kind of point K.Sujin makes all the time - all the paramis (perfections) have to be developed with detachment, not with attachment to self. It is this very attachment and concern about our own well-being, ease which and progress which leads to the hopelessness and despair when there are the thoughts of 'what about me?' which you describe. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, I think it was in Bangkok recently, not Cooran, that Chris had come to her conclusions, so we can't hold KenH responsible at all:). Btw, I agree with the point you made that 'there is much conventionality in the Abhidhamma and there is much precise and literal language in the suttas'. I'm also not sure I would agree with Phil's comment about it being harder to cling to the Abhidhamma than to the suttas.....we all just have to find out for ourselves - clinging just likes to cling:). ================== 56452 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 1:26am Subject: The 1st Noble Truth on Suffering ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The First Noble Truth: This & such indeed is Suffering!!! The blessed Buddha once said: One should dwell reflecting on all phenomena as mental states in the light of these Four Noble Truths. How does one do so? Here, one sees, understands, and knows it as it verily is: This and such is suffering! This craving is the cause & origin of all suffering! This absence of craving is the ceasing of all suffering! This Noble 8-fold Way is the method to terminate all suffering! And what, bhikkhus, is this 1st Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, decay is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and discontent are suffering, being joined with any disliked is suffering, being separated from any liked is suffering, not getting what one wants is suffering, & getting what one not wants is suffering, in short, the five clusters of clinging are suffering ... !!! ... !!! And what, bhikkhus, is birth? In whatever being & group of individuality, there is birth, coming into being, emergence, appearance, manifestation of the 5 clusters of clinging, development of the ability to sense & experience, that, bhikkhus, is called birth... And what, bhikkhus, is ageing? In whatever being & group of individuality, there is ageing, decaying, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkled skin, shrinking & fading away, weakening of the ability to sense, that, bhikkhus, is called ageing... And what, bhikkhus, is death? In whatever being & group of individuality, there is a passing away, cutting off, disappearance, death, dying, an ending, a breaking-up of the clusters, a loss of the body, a loss of the mind, that, bhikkhus, is called death... And what, bhikkhus, is sorrow? Whenever, by any kind of tragedy, anyone is feeling pain, sorrow, frustration, distress, internal misery, or internal sadness, that bhikkhus, is called sorrow... And what, bhikkhus, is lamentation? Whenever, by any kind of misfortune, anyone is affected by something painful and there is crying out, grieving, moaning, wailing and weeping, that, bhikkhus, is called lamentation... And what is pain? Whatever bodily painful feeling, bodily unpleasant feeling, painful or unpleasant feeling resulting from bodily contact, that, bhikkhus is called pain... And what, bhikkhus, is sadness? Whatever mental painful feeling, mental unpleasant feeling, painful or unpleasant sensation resulting from mental contact, that, bhikkhus, is called sadness... And what, bhikkhus, is discontent? Whenever, by any kind of anguish, anyone is affected by some disappointment, dissatisfaction, discomfort, dismay, uneasiness, frustration, that, bhikkhus, is called discontent... And what bhikkhus, is being joined with the disliked? Here whoever has unwanted, undesirable and disliked sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches or mental states, or whoever meets enemies wishing them unhappy insecurity, with whom they are forced into association, connection, dependence, grouping with, that, bhikkhus, is called being joined with the disliked... And what is being separated from the liked? Here whoever has what is wanted, liked, pleasant sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches or mental states, or whoever enjoys company of well-wishers of good, of comfort & security, mother or father, brother or sister, younger or elders, friends or colleagues, and then is loosing this company, connection, or union, that, bhikkhus is called being separated from the liked... And what, bhikkhus, is not getting what one wants & getting what one not wants? In beings subject to birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death, bhikkhus, this wish arises: Oh may we not meet any birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death. But such cannot be gained by naive wishing. In beings prone to sorrow lamentation, pain, sadness, stress & frustration this childish wish arises: Oh may we not be afflicted by any sorrow lamentation, pain, sadness, stress nor frustration, despite none such ever can be won by mere wishing. That is not getting what one wants while getting what one not wants... And what, bhikkhus, in brevity, are the five clusters of clusters of clinging? The five clusters of clusters of clinging are as follows: The cluster of clinging to form, The cluster of clinging to feeling, The cluster of clinging to perception, The cluster of clinging to mental constructions, The cluster of clinging to kinds of consciousness. These are, in short, the five clusters of clusters of clinging, that are suffering. And that, bhikkhus, is called the 1st Noble Truth of Suffering... Source (edited extract): The Long Speeches of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya. Book II [308-] Thread: The Foundations of Awareness. Mahasatipatthana Sutta 22. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56453 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Pablo Pablo wrote: >I'd like to thank Matheesha for his narration of his first person >experience in jhanas. I think what he wrote is simply amazing. I never >thought there were living people who attain jhanas. >I know my enthusiastic interest in jhanas may seem naive, in fact I'm >a a newbie :) > I think you'll soon learn that there are many, many people on internet discussion groups who think they've attained jhana. But I have yet to come across an explanation by any of them as to where panna comes into samatha development as they understand (or 'practise') it, so I am somewhat sceptical of their claims. For the most part, these folks seem to regard samatha as being a matter of concentration on one of the 40 subjects of samatha, but as I think you can see there is not necessarily any panna, or even kusala, involved in mere concentration on an object such as a circle of earth or a colour. So be warned! >Anyway, what Matheesha wrote actually helped to strenghten my >faith ,or >better my trust, in the whole dhamma. >Actually some people need to see what it can be really achieved, most >of all, even if this can sound commonplace, if you have been soaked >with western arrogant scientism by school and family since your >childhood. > > I think the teachings themselves are the best source of support for one's confidence. But we should not think that because there were so many jhana attainers during the Buddha's lifetime that it is an easy goal. Jon 56455 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) hantun1 Dear Joop, Thank you very much for responding to my post. ---------------------------- Joop: My eyes were caught the first words of your message; "Everybody knows", is life so easy that everybody knows this? Han: I thought every dhamma practitioner knows this. I am sorry if my assumption was wrong, and I am sorry for having used the word “Everybody” without distinction. ------------------------------ Joop: It's not according the orthodoxy but I'm not sure the sequence of the releasing of the ten fetters is always the same for different persons. How do we know this is the only possible sequence? And do we have - as wordlings - all the fetters? I for example never have had "lust for rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes or lust for rebirth in aruupa-brahma planes" Han: To be honest, I do not know. That’s what the books say. And that’s why I asked this question to Acharn Sujin in the first place. ------------------------------ Joop: But most important - to me - is the question: do you have the right priorities? Is it important to think about questions what will happen with a streamenterer and what a streamenterer had to do for getting (directly or in steps) for getting a arahat? That are - in my view - topics for a streamenterer and not for a wordling. Han: You are right. These are not for the worldlings to think about. Please forgive me for being inquisitive. ------------------------------ Joop: Isn't it better to forget this theory and just practice the Noble Eightfold Path? Han: Yes, a very sensible suggestion. I wish you all success in your practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. -------------------------- With metta and deepest respect, Han 56456 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am satisfied with your explanation. No more questions. With metta and deepest respect, Han P.S. What is U.P. please? --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > --- han tun wrote: > Thanks for your kind feedback and contributions. > > One particular sentence drew my attention. “The > > correct understanding of realities from the > beginning > > is a most important foundation for the development > of > > paññå.” 56457 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin, and a sutta. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comprehensive explanation. It is heavy stuff, and I will need time to digest it. If I have any more questions I will come back. But I do not think that will happen, because your explanation has been very explicit. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > No need to answer all my mails, it will be too much. > But rour remarks > inspire me to consider more for myself. I also like > to make the medicine > less bitter for you! I try. But in Dutch we have a > proverb: doctors who are > too soft do not heal. 56458 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control or No control? hantun1 Dear Ng Boon Huat, Thank you very much for your response. I have noted the contents of your mail and the following summary: “As a summary, there is no control. There is only Anica, Dukha, Anata.... Impermanance, Suffering and non-self.” With metta, Han --- Ng Boon Huat wrote: > We live in the world of conditions else > causation.... > > Thus there is NO Control.... in fact there is no > Self > to control as all phenomena arises by itself if the > conditions permits. 56459 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I know mano-dvaara vithi and secondary mano-dvaara vithi. If I understand you correctly, kusala kamma and yonisomanasikaara arise simultaneously during javana cittas, and similarly, akusala kamma and ayonisomnasikaara arise simultaneously during javana cittas. So there is no question of which comes first. Is that correct? With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > --- han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > I look at the following two statements contained > in > > your presentation. 56460 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > P.S. What is U.P. please? ... sorry for the shorthand. It stands for 'Useful Posts' which can be found in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ scroll down to U.P. S. 56461 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 0:17am Subject: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, all - In the following sutta, I believe there is made a point that I frequently emphasize: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-159.html. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56462 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Han) - In a message dated 3/7/06 1:16:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Han Tun: "why do I get angry if there is no "I"." > > Hi Han, > > I would say "I" is conceit (maana), not self view (sakkaaya di.t.thi). > Self view is the web of ideas, beliefs, and opinions that we use to > theorize about, rationalize, and explain self. But "I" as the rationale > (reason for being) of desire itself is conceit. There is a lot of > thinking involved in self view, while conceit is auto-matic :-) > > ====================== I agree with you, Larry. When I write of "sense of self" I am also speaking of mana, and not atta-ditthi. What is not clear to me, however, is the distinction between mana and avijja. I have my own suspicians of what avijja involves, and, as I see it, it is more far reaching than the sense of a personal self (of "me" and "mine"). To me, avijja also includes a multiplistic, separatist reification that senses self/identity/own-being/core in all phenomena, both conventional and directly experienced. However, I have not read anywhere an *official* distinction between mana and avijja, and I am curious to know what is available in sutta and abhidhamma on that distinction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56463 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 5:47am Subject: Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be indriyabala Hi, Howard- I looked up the recommended sutta[AN IV.159, Bhikkhuni Sutta]. The following passages impress me the most: 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' But I do not know how to relate the above to the point that you have frequently emphasized (We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be). Could you please elaborate on it for me and all Paramattha-dhamma devotees? Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > In the following sutta, I believe there is made a point that I > frequently emphasize: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-159.html. > 56464 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. indriyabala Hi, Nina - I have a quick question for you. >Nina > But in Dutch we have a proverb: doctors who are > too soft do not heal. > That is similar to : "Spare the stick, spoil the child" in Thai. Question: Did the Buddha say something along this line of reasoning too? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, > No need to answer all my mails, it will be too much. But rour remarks > inspire me to consider more for myself. I also like to make the medicine > less bitter for you! I try. But in Dutch we have a proverb: doctors who are > too soft do not heal. > 56465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) nilovg Dear Han, In the commentary wise attention and unwise attention are called the proximate causes of kusala citta or akusala citta. Proximate cause can occur at the same time as the dhamma it is proximate cause of. We discussed here yoniso manaasikaara and Sarah also posted on this subject. There are many posts about it. Thinking of the actual moment, not of the theory: we cannot speak of first. Nina. op 07-03-2006 09:06 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > Wise attention and unwise attention on one hand, > and kusala citta and akusala citta on the other; > which comes first? 56478 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Han & Nina) - In a message dated 3/7/06 9:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard (Han Tun &Nina), > > In my undertanding ignorance doesn't reify, it simply fails to see. ====================== I think that despite th word being a grammatical negative, avijja is more than a passive absence of wisdom, but it an active mis-knowing, a mis-knowing that includes reification. Nyanatiloka seems to express this when he writes : > It is the delusion tricking beings by making life appear to them as > permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that > everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and > 'mine', and basically impure (s. vipallasa). > > With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56479 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) upasaka_howard Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 3/7/06 10:38:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi, Larry (and Han &Nina) - > > In a message dated 3/7/06 9:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... > writes: > > >Hi Howard (Han Tun &Nina), > > > >In my undertanding ignorance doesn't reify, it simply fails to see. > ====================== > I think that despite th word being a grammatical negative, avijja is > more than a passive absence of wisdom, but it an active mis-knowing, a > mis-knowing that includes reification. Nyanatiloka seems to express this > when he > writes : > > >It is the delusion tricking beings by making life appear to them as > >permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing > that > >everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and > >'mine', and basically impure (s. vipallasa). > > > ========================== I stand corrected, Larry, at least as regards Abhidhamma terminology. I checked with the Dhammasangani, and it seems that the active mis-knowing I had in mind is micchaditthi, not avijja. Avijja, at least in Abhidhamma, is mere unknowing or obfuscation or confusion (literally, "not seeing"), which of course must accompany and be requisite for wrong view and perverted cognition and conceit but isn't synonymous with any of these. One question I have, though: Under what does "sense of self" fall? While self-view goes by the wayside with stream entry, it is clear to me that *sense* of self must be one of the last fetters to be destroyed. It seems clear to me that conceit depends on sense of self, not necessarily *belief* in self but *sense* of self, and, so, given that conceit still remains in a non-returner, so must sense of self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56480 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 8:59pm Subject: Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be philofillet Hi Howard > But, in > fact, we start out with self-view, conceit, craving & clinging, and > ignorance. Certainly true. And "it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned" and "it is > by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned," and that is the > relationship, that is the point. You are a man who places a lot of emphasis on investigating experience and developing your own understanding. Does your investigated experience and understanding of citta processes tell you that this kind of thinking is the way to go? If so, fine. Sounds like playing with fire to me, but you are a responsible adult who knows what he is doing! :) Phil 56481 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) lbidd2 Howard: "One question I have, though: Under what does "sense of self" fall? While self-view goes by the wayside with stream entry, it is clear to me that *sense* of self must be one of the last fetters to be destroyed. It seems clear to me that conceit depends on sense of self, not necessarily *belief* in self but *sense* of self, and, so, given that conceit still remains in a non-returner, so must sense of self." Hi Howard, From what little I can see of it I would say wherever there is sense of self there is conceit so they are either one and the same or inseparable. In abhidhamma I don't think there is any other dhamma that could be characterized as sense of self although this isn't quite the same as subjectivity, which has to do with the supposed duality of consciousness and object of consciousness. Perhaps this is a matter of view (di.t.thi) in a literal sense of viewing an object. There are many aspects of this phenomenon I don't understand at all; one of which is, is this even a sense of self? Larry 56482 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 10:15pm Subject: The 2nd Noble Truth on The Cause of Suffering... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Second Noble Truth: Craving is the Cause of Suffering!!! The blessed Buddha once said: One should dwell reflecting on all phenomena as mental states in the light of these Four Noble Truths. How does one do so? Here, one sees, understands, and knows this as it verily is: This and such is suffering! This craving is the cause & origin of all suffering! This absence of craving is the ceasing of all suffering! This Noble 8-fold Way is the method to eradicate all suffering! And what, monks, is the 2nd Noble Truth on the Cause of Suffering? It is that craving, which gives rise to rebirth, drenched with lust and greed, finding fresh attraction first here, then there: that is to say sensual craving, craving for becoming into existence, & craving for non-becoming into existence. And where does this craving arise and manifest itself? Wherever in the world there is anything attractive and pleasant, it is right there and right then, on the very spot, that this craving arises and manifests itself... And what is there in this world, that is attractive and pleasant? The eye, in this world, is attractive and pleasant, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, the mind is attractive and pleasant, and there this craving arises and puts down it's roots. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and mental states are attractive and amusing, and there this craving emerges & establishes itself. Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mental-consciousness in this world is attractive & alluring, and there this craving come up and implants itself. Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mental-contact in this world is attractive and tempting, and there this craving begins and reveals itself. Any feeling born of eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue- contact, body-contact, mind-contact in the world is appealing & fascinating, and right there this craving occurs and installs itself. The perception and experience of any sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, & thoughts is quite interesting and captivating, and there this craving arises & imbibes itself. Intention, wishing, wanting and hoping for certain sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, thoughts, ideas and mental states is enthralling & intriguing, and there this craving arises and substantiates itself. The craving itself, the drive, push & rush for various sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, & many mental-objects in this world is attractive and seductive, and there this craving also arises & consolidates itself. Thinking of any sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mental-objects in this world is attractive & tantalizing, thus this craving arises & manifests itself. Prolonged pondering on certain sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles and the manifold diversity of mental objects in this world is attractive and enticing, and there this craving also arises and manifests, establishes and enhances itself... And that, bhikkhus, is called the 2nd Noble Truth on the Cause of Suffering... Source (edited extract): The Long Speeches of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya. Book II [306-314] Thread: The Foundations of Awareness. Mahasatipatthana Sutta 22. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56483 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 11:09pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 392- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction) Through the study of the Dhamma we may begin to realize that conditioned realities do not last, that they are impermanent. We may remember more often that it is useless to cling to our possessions since our life is short and we cannot take our possessions with us when we die. The Buddha explained that it is difficult to be reborn in the human plane where there is an opportunity to hear the Dhamma and to develop right understanding of realities. We should therefore not, like fools, waste our life with akusala. We read in the Kindred Sayings (I, Sagåthå-vagga, The Devas, Chapter IV, § 6, Faith): * "… It is a fool’s part heedless to waste his life:— Such are the folk who will not understand. He who is wise does foster earnestness As he were watching over his chiefest wealth. Give not yourselves to wastage in your lives, Nor be familiar with delights of sense. He who does strenuously meditate, His shall it be to win the bliss supreme." * The person who with courage and perseverance develops right understanding will win “the bliss supreme”, he will eventually attain arahatship. ***** (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 56484 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 3:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin ... We don't have that much time. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > N: I listened to the tape and here was a short passage about your > question on emptiness. I hesitated to give it to you, because I am > not sure that it is too bitter (I like to make bitter medicine > sweet). Acharn gives answers different from what people expect > or she does not answer the question. She has the intention to > make people consider more, that is her objective. > She said: 'There is he who thinks about emptiness, and then the > thinking is not empty.' > I find it useful when we ask a question or think, to come > to realize how much self is involved with this thinking. > Nina. > Hallo Nina Don't worry, this message is not too bitter, partly because I don't perceive mrs. Sujin as my teacher. Of course there is always the danger that by thinking self is involved more than I realize. And there is always the danger that something is perceived as a reality while it's not a reality but something inpermanent (anicca). As I said to Sarah some weeks ago: "... also the socalled ultimate truth is an illusion, there is no ultimate truth, we need a truth and create/construct it. Perhaps this is a Mahayana-opinion; I evolve - not being within anyone's control - to a Mahayanist." Metta Joop 56485 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/7/06 11:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > And "it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned" > and "it is > >by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned," and that is > the > >relationship, that is the point. > > > You are a man who places a lot of emphasis on investigating > experience and developing your own understanding. Does your > investigated experience and understanding of citta processes tell you > that this kind of thinking is the way to go? If so, fine. Sounds like > playing with fire to me, but you are a responsible adult who knows what > he is doing! :) > > ======================= I have apparently been unclear, Phil. I am not recommending immorality of any sort. Quite the opposite, in fact!! As I see it, it is simply *factual* that we begin enmeshed in defilement. Our choice is between directing our craving to what will end craving, and directing our sense of self and all that entails to ending defilements, or directing these to harmful or at-best-neutral ends. There is no other choice when the defilements are there. It is pointless to merely speak of there being no self when everything we think, do, and feel is infected by sense of self. The point is to take ourselves as we are and do what needs to be done, as ably as possible given current conditions, to move towards better and better circumstances, closer and closer to freeing ourselves of defilement. What is more, the Buddha has explicitly TAUGHT us that "it is by relyi ng on craving that craving is to be abandoned." This is not Howard speaking and suggesting "dangerous" action. This is the *Buddha* telling us how things are! It happens that my "investigated experience and understanding of citta processes" accords precisely with what the Buddha has taught. So I am fortunate to not be in the position to consider putting my judgement in this matter above that of the Buddha. What is dangerous is to pay no attention to the Buddha's path of practice and to adopt a policy that since we are imprisoned, and our hands and legs are shackled, no efforts towards release are advisable, safe, or even possible! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56486 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/8/06 12:42:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > From what little I can see of it I would say wherever there is sense of > self there is conceit so they are either one and the same or > inseparable. -------------------------------------- Howard: Good! That is what I was hoping would be your answer. I have always had the understanding of mana as "sense of self," but I feared that might have been only a private perspective. -------------------------------------- In abhidhamma I don't think there is any other dhamma that> > could be characterized as sense of self although this isn't quite the > same as subjectivity, which has to do with the supposed duality of > consciousness and object of consciousness. Perhaps this is a matter of > view (di.t.thi) in a literal sense of viewing an object. There are many > aspects of this phenomenon I don't understand at all; one of which is, > is this even a sense of self? > > Larry > ======================= Thanks, Larry. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56487 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina jonoabb Hi Mike m. nease wrote: >Well, I'm a bit stuck on the 'prompted vs. unprompted' notion but of course >what you say does make some sense; when I think of how rare kusala is >though, 'out of the blue' seems unlikely to me to mean simply spontaneous. >I think that a moment of kusala--in the sense of completely free of dosa, >lobha or moha--must surely be conditioned by prior bhaavanaa? At least for >us ordinary puthujjanas (stream enterers and above, please chat amongst >yourselves). > > I meant 'out of the blue' in the sense of unpremeditated, unwished for, unexpected. Of course, it is anything but out of the blue in fact, since all dhammas arise by virtue of very specific conditions (that are invisible to us). But to my understanding bhavana is not a necessary condition for kusala other than the kusala that is the path, since all those other forms of kusala can be found outside the dispensation. Jon 56488 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:40am Subject: Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be philofillet Hi Howard > I have apparently been unclear, Phil. I am not recommending immorality > of any sort. Ph: Oh I didn't mean that! Of course I understood what you meant by this sutta - Swee Boon (?) brought it up some months back. It was very central to his Dhamma practice, if I recall correctly. >The > point is to take ourselves as we are and do what needs to be done, as ably as > possible given current conditions, to move towards better and better > circumstances, closer and closer to freeing ourselves of defilement. Ph: Of course I know what you mean. When I first joined DSG I talked of emplying the self in a process that would lead to the self being laid off! What you say is attractive and sensible and followed would certainly lead to more emotional stability, better family life, more peaceful community and maybe world peace, if everyone got in on it. And yet, and yet.... > What is more, the Buddha has explicitly TAUGHT us that "it is by relyi > ng on craving that craving is to be abandoned." This is not Howard speaking > and suggesting "dangerous" action. This is the *Buddha* telling us how things > are! Ph: Well, strictly speaking it's the translator, Thanissaro Bhikkhu (I assume), telling us, but I imagine that even the Pali leads to the same general message that we have in this translation. I just know that I have spent the last year in Samyutta Nikaya, and this sutta is difficult for me to understand in the light of the hundreds of suttas I have read and reflected on there in my shallow way. In terms of conditionality, it is saying that akusala conditions kusala. Well, I have learned that it can on occasion. But to take this as a central tenet to justify lobha-rooted Dhamma practices? That seems risky. Thus my "playing with fire." There is already so much lobha. If I were to start down a road driven by craving in the belief that the destination would be detachment and found out that it was a one way road I would be quite aghast! But I would never find out, because that is the magic of lobha, it blinds us to its presence because there is so much liking involved in various subtle shades! I say let us appreciate moments of kusala (even when we can't identify them) for they are all rooted in alobha, and moments of alobha conditions more of the same. This is true progress without the danger of getting caught up in craving. I say we needn't risk relying on craving because moments of alobha, moments of sati, moments of understanding, moments of metta, are so valuable, so liberating, momentarily. And indisputably (I guess) condition more of the same. There has been talk recently of being sotapanna. I find that quite humorous from my point of view, because I am so happy to have the odd moment of kusala. A waste of a human birth, some would say. So be it, for now at least. But I do know what you mean because I have thought the same thing and may again some day, who knows? There is no knowing where citta processes will lead us. Phil p.s I wonder why this sutta doesn't talk about relying on chanda, which can be kusala, rather than craving, which must be akusala? I guess because it is more reliable to rely on craving, which is always always always there! p.p.s I know that your understanding of this sutta and its implications is more refined than the way I have portrayed it.(e.g deciding to be driven by craving etc) 56489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How immediately does lobha arise? develop concentration. nilovg Hi Phil, op 08-03-2006 00:02 schreef Phil op philco777@...: >> In general we can say that when the objective is not daana, siila > or mental >> development, the cittas are akusala cittas. > > I think that the surface objective can be sila or dana or > bhavana, but when it is rooted in lobha, it is not so. --------- N: daana, siila and bhaavana are kusala, they cannot be rooted in lobha. If there is lobha, there cannot be daana, siila and bhaavana at the same time. ----- Ph: I have been finding that reflecting on what is vipaka citta vs. what is not is more helpful than reflecting on what is kusala vs. what is akusala. -------- N: Just a remark. I find it really difficult to understand when there is vipaakacitta since it is so very short, compared to the javana cittas, which are seven moments but these are also very short. -------- Here is a not so recent post of yours on samaadhi: Phil: I do have some unsettled doubts about samadhi. The sutta that says samadhi is a necessary precondition for right understanding to see things as they really are . I know there is that eggysomething cetasika with every citta, and that it is samadhi and can be right samadhi, ------ Ekaggata cetasika or onepointedness. This can also arise with akusala citta and we have to be careful not to take wrong concentration for right concentration, as you know. -------- Ph: but still don't understand how "develop concentration" can be satisfied by that. But I know it is also not a matter of sitting on a cushion and deciding to concentrate on something - that is just thinking with lobha. ------- N: Right concentration is a factor of the eightfold Path and it has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path, otherwise it is not a Path factor. As understanding of nama and rupa develops, also right concentration that has either nama or rupa as object, develops. Paññaa knows more precisely nama as nama and rupa as rupa, as impermanent and non-self, and right concentration assists paññaa and also right thinking which touches the right object assists paññaa, and the other factors. When the right conditions for lokuttara citta are present, it arises and the accompanying right concentration which is also lokuttara is of a particular strength, the strength of jhana, also in the case of those who have not developed jhana before. Thus, the words 'develop concentration' should not be misunderstood out of context. It is implied that also the other factors must be developed, or rather, they all develop when there are the right conditions. Take the case of someone who has the accumulations and skill to develop jhaana. His aim is not jhaana in itself but he develops it so that it can be the base or proximate cause for vipassanaa. But he has to be aware of nama and rupa after emerging from jhaana. We hear the words: develop pañña, or develop concentration, and this is in conventional sense. In reality it is like this: paññaa develops, concentration develops, because of their own conditions, and this is in the ultimate sense. If we forget the ultimate sense we can easily misunderstand the suttas. The conventional words spoke to people with different accumulations point to the ultimate sense. This is actually what Suan once meant when he said: All the Buddha ever taught is the Abhidhamma. Nina. 56490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for the Pali. I have to study the meaning. op 06-03-2006 23:42 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > I thank you very much for your mail, and I am very > comfortable with your explanations. With due respect > to Acharn Sujin, I think I can learn most of Acharn’s > teachings by reading your letters and books. ------- N: I try to be a bridge. Since I do not want to have her teaching to be only in Thailand, I translated her books, and also, in all my writings I use her ideas. When you get used to her way of explanation you will appreciate her more and more. If there is an opportunity it may be useful if you aske her about the stages of insight. She always conveys this: the teachings are not in the book. We read names of stages of insight, but these are not theory. If you get from Zolag or from the dsg archives: "My time with Acharn Sujin" it may also help to understand her explanations. As Sarah said, the audio on DSG.org is also helpful. By listening you can also rest your eyes. Nina. 56491 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? nilovg Dear Han, op 07-03-2006 06:11 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > In your last post you had written: > “Dhammas (not speaking about nibbaana now) are > conditioned, they cannot be managed. I take it that > "they cannot be managed" also means "they cannot be > controlled". ... If he dwells with this organ > of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, > evil unskilled states of mind, might predominate. So > he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of > sight, he comes to [have] control over the organ of > sight.... > In this sutta the Buddha asked the monk to “control > over the organ of sight. > > Therefore, I will be most grateful to know your > opinion on “control and “no control? -------- N: Indriya sa.mvara siila. Sa.mvara: restraint, but, as you know, no self who can have this. Only kusala citta and sobhana cetasikas can achieve this. We can use the word control, so long as we understand that no self controls. There is no problem. The term unmanageable I took from the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. No self who can manage dhammas. This does not mean that kusala cannot be developed and akusala cannot be abandoned. Nina. 56492 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) nilovg Dear Han, Larry explained to you about conceit. Indeed, this can condition dosa. When a beggar touched me in India I had conceit and also dosa arose, conditioned by conceit. 'Why is he doing that to me?' I find myself so important. The sotaapanna has still lobha and dosa but he realizes them as conditioned dhammas, does not take them for self. Slowly they are wearing out, not as intense anymore. Nina. op 07-03-2006 05:15 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > My question to Acharn Sujin was, if one has completely > eradicated atta-ditthi or sakkaaya-ditthi why can’t > one eradicate other fetters as well? 56493 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/8/06 9:41:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > In terms of conditionality, it is saying that akusala > conditions kusala. Well, I have learned that it can on occasion. But > to take this as a central tenet to justify lobha-rooted Dhamma > practices? That seems risky. Thus my "playing with fire." There is > already so much lobha. > --------------------------------------- Howard: But it is a *fact*, Phil, that we start with conditions as they are. There is dukkha, there is disliking(!) that dukkha, and there is the craving(!) to be done with that dukkha. Thank goodness for that aversion and that craving. Were it not for these we would be slaves who are thankful to their slavemasters and happy with their servitude. In that case, our imprisonment would be final and eternal. In any case, the Buddha has made it clear: It is by craving that one puts an end to craving. What substitute for the Dhamma is so persuasive as to make you challenge this forthright assertion by the Buddha? This is not a matter of unimportant, questionable, ancient Indian cosmological and pseudo-scientific notions that is at issue. It is a matter of a straightforward statement by the Buddha pertaining to what he said his Dhamma is all about: suffering and the end of suffering. Moreover, what the Buddha says in this regard is crystal clear as to its correctness. ---------------------------------------- If I were to start down a road driven by > > craving in the belief that the destination would be detachment and > found out that it was a one way road I would be quite aghast! But I > would never find out, because that is the magic of lobha, it blinds > us to its presence because there is so much liking involved in > various subtle shades! ---------------------------------------- Howard: So, why are you a Buddhist, Phil? Do you not wish for release from the three poisons? ---------------------------------------- > > I say let us appreciate moments of kusala (even when we can't > identify them) for they are all rooted in alobha, and moments of > alobha conditions more of the same. This is true progress without > the danger of getting caught up in craving. I say we needn't risk > relying on craving because moments of alobha, moments of sati, > moments of understanding, moments of metta, are so valuable, so > liberating, momentarily. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: If what you say is correct, then the Buddha was incorrect. Does that not at least give you pause? ------------------------------------------ And indisputably (I guess) condition more > > of the same. There has been talk recently of being sotapanna. I find > that quite humorous from my point of view, because I am so happy to > have the odd moment of kusala. A waste of a human birth, some would > say. So be it, for now at least. > > But I do know what you mean because I have thought the same thing > and may again some day, who knows? There is no knowing where citta > processes will lead us. ------------------------------------------ Howard: If there is no following of the Buddha's instructions, I believe there is a good guess that can be made. ;-) ====================== With metta, Howard P.S. Hey, folks, am I so off base when I speak of helplessness and hopelessness? Doesn't it seem to you that when a philosophy of nothing-to-do leads to taking exception to straightforward, core Dhamma assertions by the Buddha, that the nothing-to-do perspective has gone too far? It sure seem so to me. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56494 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? indriyabala Hi, Nina and Han - Even after 3 years with DSG I am not sure about the meaning of the following statements: >Nina: > We can use the word control, so long as we understand that > no self controls. There is no problem. > The term unmanageable I took from the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. > No self who can manage dhammas. This does not mean that kusala > cannot be developed and akusala cannot be abandoned. > N: Indriya sa.mvara siila. Sa.mvara: restraint, but, as you know, > no self who can have this. Only kusala citta and sobhana cetasikas >can achieve this. > Tep: Do you mean that 'samvara siila' or 'kusala' and 'sobhana cetasiks' control the outcome of all kammas in beings? How is it possible that these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and not-self themselves, can make things happen? How can emptiness make something happen? For example, do they control the arising of the Buddha as well as the arahants? Sorry for asking many questions. I am just confused. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, > op 07-03-2006 06:11 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > > > In your last post you had written: > > "Dhammas (not speaking about nibbaana now) are > > conditioned, they cannot be managed. I take it that > > "they cannot be managed" also means "they cannot be > > controlled". > ... If he dwells with this organ > > of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, > > evil unskilled states of mind, might predominate. So > > he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of > > sight, he comes to [have] control over the organ of > > sight.... > > In this sutta the Buddha asked the monk to "control > > over the organ of sight. > > > > Therefore, I will be most grateful to know your > > opinion on "control and "no control? > -------- (snipped) 56495 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) matheesha333 Hi Tep, M: I think the better way to > > give rise to faith, is to experience the first jhana yourself - this > > is something Ven Ananda mentions in the suttas. > > > > Sila-->Samadhi-->Panna > > sadda-->viriya-->sati-->samadhi-->panna > Tep: There is a gap in the dhamma space that you have created in the > conversation, Math. Can you close the gap between the first jhana and > the five faculties(Indriya) for me, please? in 'samadhi' and it is not followed by 'saddha'(faith), then how does > it "give rise to faith"?> M: I was thinking about this whole issue recently. The answer is apparent if you think of the actual incident - attaining the first jhana does give rise to a lot of faith - as would understanding that there is no self (see the sotapatti-anga). But the linearity of the formulations that have been given to us is not the full story, but only a snapshot of a particular line of events. Panna-->samadhi samadhi-->sila are also valid IMO. It just shows the complexity of mechanisms of the noble eightfol path, and how the factors build up on each other in a spiral positive feedback loop until it issues forth in samma vimukti. metta Matheesha 56496 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina mlnease Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Nina > I meant 'out of the blue' in the sense of unpremeditated, unwished for, > unexpected. Of course, it is anything but out of the blue in fact, > since all dhammas arise by virtue of very specific conditions (that are > invisible to us). > > But to my understanding bhavana is not a necessary condition for kusala > other than the kusala that is the path, since all those other forms of > kusala can be found outside the dispensation. Right of course, thanks, mike 56497 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina & Han) - In a message dated 3/8/06 11:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, indriyabala@... writes: > > Hi, Nina and Han - > > Even after 3 years with DSG I am not sure about the meaning of the > following statements: > > >Nina: > >We can use the word control, so long as we understand that > >no self controls. There is no problem. > >The term unmanageable I took from the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. > >No self who can manage dhammas. This does not mean that kusala > >cannot be developed and akusala cannot be abandoned. > > >N: Indriya sa.mvara siila. Sa.mvara: restraint, but, as you know, > >no self who can have this. Only kusala citta and sobhana cetasikas > >can achieve this. > > > > Tep: Do you mean that 'samvara siila' or 'kusala' and 'sobhana > cetasiks' control the outcome of all kammas in beings? How is it > possible that these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and not-self > themselves, can make things happen? How can emptiness make something > happen? For example, do they control the arising of the Buddha as well > as the arahants? > > Sorry for asking many questions. I am just confused. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ======================== Actually I am happy with these statements of Nina's! She doesn't say there is no "controlling" (i.e., that there is no conditioning of the arising of some conditions by other conditions). She merely says there is no self, no agent, no manager, and no controller. Is that not so? Isn't it so that various states of mind involving (especially) energy and intention/volition are among the conditions leading to resultant phenomena. When this is, that is. When this arises, that arises. There is no need for any of these conditions to have self-existence, core, or substantial identity. The conditioning elements are mere empty phenomena as are the "results". The Buddha's teaching on conditionality is subtle and is not a matter of substantialist causation nor does it imply substantial "connection". It is only a matter of when this is (or, better, when these are), that is. It is a matter of *regularity and objectivity of occurrence. No self-existence is required for any occurrences, for there is no self-existence anywhere of any sort. Anatta rules! With metta, Howard * There is the following: __________________ "(1) When this is, that is. (2) From the arising of this comes the arising of that. (3) When this isn't, that isn't. (4) From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that." — A X.92 ------------------------------- /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 56498 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? indriyabala Hi, Howard (also Nina, Han, Sarah, Jon)- I think the rules of Dependent Origination do not explain the beginning or the end. Earlier I asked Nina something that are not, I believe, in the domain of Paticcasamuppada. > > > > Tep: Do you mean that 'samvara siila' or 'kusala' and 'sobhana > > cetasiks' control the outcome of all kammas in beings? How is it > > possible that these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and not-self themselves, can make things happen? How can emptiness make something happen? For example, do they control the arising of the Buddha as well as the arahants? > > >Howard: > Actually I am happy with these statements of Nina's! She doesn't say there is no "controlling" (i.e., that there is no conditioning of the arising of some conditions by other conditions). She merely says there is no self, no agent, no manager, and no controller. Is that not so? Isn't it so that various states of mind involving (especially) energy and intention/volition are among > the conditions leading to resultant phenomena. When this is, that is. When this arises, that arises. There is no need for any of these conditions to have self-existence, core, or substantial identity. The conditioning elements are mere empty phenomena as are the "results". The Buddha's teaching on conditionality is subtle and is not a matter of substantialist causation nor does it imply substantial "connection". It is only a matter of when this is (or, better, > when these are), that is. It is a matter of *regularity and objectivity of occurrence. No self-existence is required for any occurrences, for there is no self-existence anywhere of any sort. Anatta rules! > Tep: Do you think you can answer my questions (above) by " When this is, that is. When this arises, that arises. When this isn't, that isn't." ? Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep (and Nina & Han) - > > In a message dated 3/8/06 11:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > > > Hi, Nina and Han - > > > > Even after 3 years with DSG I am not sure about the meaning of the > > following statements: > > > > >Nina: > > >We can use the word control, so long as we understand that > > >no self controls. There is no problem. > > >The term unmanageable I took from the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. > > >No self who can manage dhammas. This does not mean that kusala > > >cannot be developed and akusala cannot be abandoned. > > > > >N: Indriya sa.mvara siila. Sa.mvara: restraint, but, as you know, > > >no self who can have this. Only kusala citta and sobhana cetasikas > > >can achieve this. > > > (snipped) > * There is the following: > __________________ > "(1) When this is, that is. > (2) From the arising of this comes the arising of that. > (3) When this isn't, that isn't. > (4) From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that." > â€" A X.92 > ------------------------------- > 56499 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 11:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) indriyabala >Matheesha: > But the linearity of the formulations that have been given to us is > not the full story, but only a snapshot of a particular line of > events. Panna-->samadhi samadhi-->sila are also valid IMO. It just > shows the complexity of mechanisms of the noble eightfol path, and how > the factors build up on each other in a spiral positive feedback loop > until it issues forth in samma vimukti. > Tep: I think it makes sense that "the factors build up on each other in a spiral positive feedback loop", given that they (the five faculties) are strong enough. At the beginning of the training (to become a sekha), however, only saddha and viriya do all the hard work before the remaining faculties arise; then they develop together in the feedback-feedforward fashion. Regards, Tep ======= 56500 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep and all - In a message dated 3/8/06 2:16:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi, Howard (also Nina, Han, Sarah, Jon)- > > I think the rules of Dependent Origination do not explain the > beginning or the end. > Earlier I asked Nina something that are not, I believe, in the domain > of Paticcasamuppada. > >> > >>Tep: Do you mean that 'samvara siila' or 'kusala' and 'sobhana > >>cetasiks' control the outcome of all kammas in beings? How is it > >>possible that these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and > not-self themselves, can make things happen? How can emptiness make > something happen? For example, do they control the arising of the > Buddha as well as the arahants? > >> > > >Howard: > > Actually I am happy with these statements of Nina's! She > doesn't say there is no "controlling" (i.e., that there is no > conditioning of the arising of some conditions by other conditions). > She merely says there is no self, no agent, no manager, and no > controller. Is that not so? Isn't it so that various states of mind > involving (especially) energy and intention/volition are among > >the conditions leading to resultant phenomena. When this is, that > is. When this arises, that arises. There is no need for any of these > conditions to have self-existence, core, or substantial identity. The > conditioning elements are mere empty phenomena as are the "results". > The Buddha's teaching on conditionality is subtle and is not a matter > of substantialist causation nor does it imply substantial > "connection". It is only a matter of when this is (or, better, > >when these are), that is. It is a matter of *regularity and > objectivity of occurrence. No self-existence is required for any > occurrences, for there is no self-existence anywhere of any sort. > Anatta rules! > > > > Tep: Do you think you can answer my questions (above) by " When this > is, that is. When this arises, that arises. When this isn't, that > isn't." ? > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ========================== You write "I think the rules of Dependent Origination do not explain the beginning or the end." I don't understand what you mean by "the rules." Also, "beginning or end" of what? I don't undestand what you are asking here? (My apologies for that.) But let me explain a little further what I DO mean, and perhaps what you are asking will be answered in any case. I do not think that dependent origination, either in its general this-that conditionality formulation (the general case of conditionality) or in the specific 12-link exemplification that deals with arising and ceasing of dukkha, constitutes a theory of causative power. Such a theory would be a substantialist, continuationist, eternalist one. You asked "How is it possible that these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and not-self themselves, can make things happen?" But "making things happen" is exactly what is NOT put forward in the Buddha's teaching on conditionality. All that is put forward is dependable, objective, necessary, and regular dependency. With this, that; without this, not that. That's all. Not more, and not less. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? nilovg Hi Tep, op 08-03-2006 17:09 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: >> > > Tep: Do you mean that 'samvara siila' or 'kusala' and 'sobhana > cetasiks' control the outcome of all kammas in beings? How is it > possible that these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and not-self > themselves, can make things happen? How can emptiness make something > happen? For example, do they control the arising of the Buddha as well > as the arahants? ------ N: Not in that sense. Paññaa is a controlling factor, an indriya. It is leader in its own field. When pañña and sati arise, there is restraint or control of the senses at that moment. The doorways are guarded. Howard wrote about control and he said he understands that it is not a self which controls. He explained this many times before. I agree with him. There is controlling, willing, striving. Kusala citta and cetasikas take action. But they take action just for a moment and then fall away. I do not mean citta and cetasika control vipaaka or the arising of a Buddha. I just see Howard's good post. Nina. 56502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. We All Can Do It. nilovg Dear Tep, op 07-03-2006 03:00 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: The greatest motivation for entering the stream for me is to gain release from births in the lower planes of existence, the sooner the better (yet, I do not perceive any greed in the > heart). > .... But I believe a helpful thinking is > naturally free from fear/anxiety because it is associated with gladness > and joy that are resulted from our frequent reflections on the four > stream-entry factors that we have been developing -- buddhanussati, > dhammanussati, sanghanussati, silanussati, caganussati. > ........................ N: But also the other four as you will agree: meeting the right friend in Dhamma, listening, yoniso manaasikaara and practice in accordance with dhamma. _____ > Tep: I like Lodewijk's saddha in the Blessed One. I always reread and > review the suttas on my CD whenever my confidence in the Buddha or > the Teachings are weak, in order to develop the saddha-bala -- and, I > tell you, it works every time!. ------ N: yes, to gladden the mind when it should be gladdened. --------- T:Another way to cheer up is to think that we > are many, many times wiser in many ways than people 2549 years > ago. ...many monks I read about in the suttas only learned > a few dhammas from him, and they attained Arahantship (in seclusion) > without coming back for another advise from the Lord. If these people > of the old time could do it, then I should not have any fear. -------- N: Many of those born in the Buddha's time must be people with great accumulations of wisdom. This conditioned their birth at such a time. The fact that they were people who needed little advice tells us something. Nowadays we are neyya puggala, needing a lot of advice, or pada parama, who only understand the words but do not become enlightened in this lifetime. Sarah said something that can help me not to be anxious about the future, about rebirth and not to forget detachment: < : This is the kind of point K.Sujin makes all the time - all the paramis (perfections) have to be developed with detachment, not with attachment to self. It is this very attachment and concern about our own well-being, ease and progress which leads to the hopelessness and despair when there are the thoughts of 'what about me?' which you describe.> Thus, I could be anxious, thinking, what about my rebirth? But the future has not come, and attachment to my rebirth is not helpful. Nina. 56503 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, op 07-03-2006 16:59 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >> >> I looked up the recommended sutta[AN IV.159, Bhikkhuni Sutta]. The >> following passages impress me the most: >> >> 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying >> on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' -------- N: This body has come into being through craving...through conceit...through sexual intercourse...through food. These must be abandoned. Thai Co not so clear, but I think: craving is one of the main causes for being in the cycle. Sometimes the term pre-craving is used. So long as there is conceit one has to be reborn, only the arahat has eradicated it. We are still dependent on (leaning on) craving and conceit so long as they have not been abandoned. These should be known as they are by paññaa. That is the way out. Nina. 56504 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How immediately does lobha arise? develop concentration. icarofranca Hi Nina, and all!!! The following lines are best rendition about Jhaana/meditation processes I ever read nowadays! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take the case of someone who has the accumulations and skill to >develop > jhaana. His aim is not jhaana in itself but he develops it so that >it can be > the base or proximate cause for vipassanaa. But he has to be aware >of nama > and rupa after emerging from jhaana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jhaana plays an important role on Sammatha meditation techniques: as a matter of fact, is the last step on this line of development ( Cf. Vissudhimagga). You can assimilate all the Kasinas, recollections, supramundane worlds on these categories, being these a gap on the continuos arise and fall of nama/rupa in day-to-day awareness... in these realm we are yet at the field where the Cetasikas play - I just conceive a lemma about they - "Cetasikas are emotions, and emotions don´t lie". Being not-Self and impermanent, Cetasikas haven´t a purpose on action - people cherished emotions because they suppose them as a matter of fun, for example, or dancing - it´s not mere moving from a point A to a Point B in the hall - but getting a charming moment like these! It seems to me that at least the First Jhaana - Pitti-Sukka - is grounded on these basis. But at the Vipassana we are at an other level. Now reading the following lines one more time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > We hear the words: develop pañña, or develop concentration, and this >is in > conventional sense. In reality it is like this: paññaa develops, > concentration develops, because of their own conditions, and this is >in the > ultimate sense. If we forget the ultimate sense we can easily >misunderstand > the suttas. The conventional words spoke to people with different > accumulations point to the ultimate sense. > This is actually what Suan once meant when he said: All the Buddha ever > taught is the Abhidhamma. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pañña arises with the word - Sabbda - and the ultimate level of pratice is achieved. Direct to the point. And Suan´s quote is only the fact that The Abhidhamma is not a "herectical" work but the own true Buddha´s teaching...or, like some Bhikkus usually say - "Vipassana IS Abhidhamma." Great reading your posts again - the discussions´level is at a high point indeed!!! Mettaya Ícaro 56505 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? icarofranca Hi Howard!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You asked "How is >it possible that > these cetasikas, being empty of ownership and not-self themselves, >can make > things happen?" But "making things happen" is exactly what is NOT >put forward in > the Buddha's teaching on conditionality. All that is put forward is >dependable, > objective, necessary, and regular dependency. With this, that; >without this, > not that. That's all. Not more, and not less. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Always right to the point, Howard. Thinking about a metaphor, since cetasikas are emotions, they don´t lie - it´s like comparing dancing with marching on parade. The Cetasikas don´t make things happen, because they are not-self and purposeless - dancing in a hall is not a matter of going from a point A to a Point B, like marching on parade. It´s a matter of getting fun and appreciate a good hour and not performing a specific task. Keeping the proper limits of metaphors, that´s my viewpoint about the matter Howard put forth so rightly!!!!!! Mettaya Ícaro 56506 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? hantun1 Dear Nina, Tep and Howard, I am grateful to you all for your posts on “Control or No control”. I am not good at all in debate, but I respect others’ opinion whether I agree or not. I believe that to say one can control everything will be one extreme. I believe that to say one cannot control at all will be another extreme. I will take Nina’s remark: “This does not mean that kusala cannot be developed and akusala cannot be abandoned.” I am trying, and will continue to do so, to develop kusala and abandon akusala by 'samvara siila' and other means such as satipatthaana. With metta and deepest respect, Han 56507 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 1:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, After I had written my post on this matter I had been studying your book on “Cetasikas”. I found everything what I wanted to know in your book, which is the best I have ever come across on cetasikas. Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > The sotaapanna has still lobha and dosa but he > realizes them as conditioned > dhammas, does not take them for self. Slowly they > are wearing out, not as > intense anymore. > Nina. 56508 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 2:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be kelvin_lwin Hi Howard (Phil), > Howard: But it is a *fact*, Phil, that we start with conditions as they are. > There is dukkha, there is disliking(!) that dukkha, and there is the craving(!) > to be done with that dukkha. Kel: I thought we saw it the same way until this post, Howard. I thought Bhikkuni Sutta was in the same vein as dhammanupassana portion of satipatthana. Use whatever arises such as craving and conceit as objects for developing understanding. At least that's how I read "rely" to mean. To be fair also, the sutta is spoken by Ananda and not Buddha to the Bhikkuni. I would think any moment that can recognize even subtle lobha would necessarily be kusala. Or even high quality because it's so much harder to see subtle. So if Phil is really aware of everything he's been writing about recently, there must've been a lot more kusala than he's giving credit for. > Howard: > taking exception to straightforward, core Dhamma assertions by the Buddha, that > the nothing-to-do perspective has gone too far? It sure seem so to me. Kel: I think it's a problem of presentation more than anything else. Though attacks on anything "formal" and "self" gets tiring at times. There's enough sutta warnings such as one couple who had enough parami to be born during a living Buddha's time. Had they joined the sanga at all in their life, they would've been at least sotapanna. Yet they wasted this opportunity by never approaching Buddha. So some people are studying and trying to gain better understanding of the teachings. That's something, if they have enough paramis then I guess it might be sufficient. After all, it only takes one citta moment to become a sotapanna. There are also some people I'm sure are too engrossed in what they feel is right practice or think themselves as already achieved whatever state. For those, warnings of no control over results would be helpful in getting a better or healthier perspective. Though I kinda wonder how Bodhisatta ever managed to develop paramis since he was lacking knowledge of anatta, especially during birth in lower realms. I'm also reminded of a recent thread about dana too in connection. For people who are strong in dana, Buddha encouraged them to give away everything, especially kilesas. - kel 56509 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, I really appreciate your cetana to be a bridge, and to spread her teachings to other countries. But I will tell my background. I have been studying and practicing for more than nine years without a teacher. My teachers are the books and tapes. I have not yet even been to a retreat. I do like Acharn’s teachings. But I would rather learn her teachings through your books. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > N: I try to be a bridge. Since I do not want to have > her teaching to be only > in Thailand, I translated her books, and also, in > all my writings I use her > ideas. 56510 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - In a message dated 3/8/06 5:04:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: > > Hi Howard (Phil), > > >Howard: But it is a *fact*, Phil, that we start with > conditions as they are. > >There is dukkha, there is disliking(!) that dukkha, and there is > the craving(!) > >to be done with that dukkha. > > Kel: I thought we saw it the same way until this post, Howard. I > thought Bhikkuni Sutta was in the same vein as dhammanupassana > portion of satipatthana. Use whatever arises such as craving and > conceit as objects for developing understanding. At least that's > how I read "rely" to mean. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's an interesting understanding of the sutta, Kel. I seriously don't think that is at all what was meant by the Buddha in this sutta, but it is a valid point in any case. ---------------------------------------- To be fair also, the sutta is spoken by > > Ananda and not Buddha to the Bhikkuni. I would think any moment > that can recognize even subtle lobha would necessarily be kusala. > Or even high quality because it's so much harder to see subtle. So > if Phil is really aware of everything he's been writing about > recently, there must've been a lot more kusala than he's giving > credit for. > > >Howard: > >taking exception to straightforward, core Dhamma assertions by the > Buddha, that > >the nothing-to-do perspective has gone too far? It sure seem so to > me. > > Kel: I think it's a problem of presentation more than anything > else. Though attacks on anything "formal" and "self" gets tiring at > times. There's enough sutta warnings such as one couple who had > enough parami to be born during a living Buddha's time. Had they > joined the sanga at all in their life, they would've been at least > sotapanna. Yet they wasted this opportunity by never approaching > Buddha. So some people are studying and trying to gain better > understanding of the teachings. That's something, if they have > enough paramis then I guess it might be sufficient. After all, it > only takes one citta moment to become a sotapanna. There are also > some people I'm sure are too engrossed in what they feel is right > practice or think themselves as already achieved whatever state. ------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. There are errors and extremes of all sorts. ;-) ------------------------------------- > For those, warnings of no control over results would be helpful in > getting a better or healthier perspective. Though I kinda wonder > how Bodhisatta ever managed to develop paramis since he was lacking > knowledge of anatta, especially during birth in lower realms. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: But it is said that he had trained under an earlier Buddha in ages past. ---------------------------------------- I'm > > also reminded of a recent thread about dana too in connection. For > people who are strong in dana, Buddha encouraged them to give away > everything, especially kilesas. --------------------------------------- Howard: But there should be no recipient for the kilesas! For that would not be a nice gift! LOL! --------------------------------------- > > - kel > > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56511 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 2:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be icarofranca Hi Howard! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But there should be no recipient for the kilesas! For that >would not > be a nice gift! LOL! > --------------------------------------- Again, the right point, Howard! "Dana" is one of the more difficult Pali words for us, western people, to catch a good meaning on. Gifts offered to Buddha could be offensive because they are Kilesas for principle...but not as Dana, when they aren´t gifts at all! Mettaya Ícaro 56512 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 3:12pm Subject: Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be philofillet Hi Howard > Howard: > But it is a *fact*, Phil, Thanks for the further feedback, Howard. I think I said as much as I can or want to on this topic for the time being at least. (I'm trying to limit my posting time to weekends but got caught up - I think it's kind of neat that the resolutions many of make and state about posting more or less or not posting at all are always broken, shows the lack of control we have over that sort of thing. James seems to be the exception to this. He must be sotapanna....) Perhaps someone else would like to take over for me. :) Phil 56513 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 3:17pm Subject: Conceit hantun1 Dear Nina (Larry and Howard), I found the following question in your book on Cetasikas, under the heading of Conceit. (ii) Why is there conceit when one thinks oneself inferior to someone else? I did not find specific answer to that question in your book. I think it is due to “self-importance”, one of the manifestations of conceit. Suppose I am abused by a person superior to me. I would think “Okay, you are better than me in that aspect. So what?” I would think that way because of my conceit. Is there a better answer to the above question, please? With metta and deepest respect, Han 56514 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 3:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be philofillet Hi Howard and all > We are still dependent on (leaning on) craving and conceit so long as they > have not been abandoned. > These should be known as they are by paññaa. That is the way out. > Nina. I just came across Nina's comments on the sutta you mentionned, Howard. As always she put it in perspective in a very succinct way. Perhaps someone would take a look at the Pali of this sentence. Because the "dependent on" (leaning on) that Nina uses here has a different connotation from the "rely on" that the access to insight translator uses. The latter can have a much more wholesome connotation, while the former makes it clear that we have no choice in the matter until understanding arises. We are dependent on drugs. We rely on our friends ... Phil 56515 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 4:34pm Subject: Vism.XVII,61 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch.XVII 61. As regards the other three, the bodily formation is bodily volition, the verbal formation is verbal volition, and the mental formation is mental volition. This triad is mentioned in order to show that at the moment of the accumulation of the kamma the formations of merit, etc., occur in these [three] kamma doors. For the eight sense-sphere profitable and twelve unprofitable volitions, making twenty, are the bodily formation when they occur in the body door and produce bodily intimation. Those same volitions are called the verbal formation when they occur in the speech door and produce verbal intimation. But volition connected with direct-knowledge is not included here in these two cases because it is not a condition for [resultant rebirth-linking] consciousness later. And like direct-knowledge volition, so also volition connected with agitation is not included; therefore that too should not be included as a condition for [rebirth-linking] consciousness. However, all these have ignorance as their condition. And all the twenty-nine volitions are the mental formation when they arise in the mind door without originating either kind of intimation.So this triad comes within the first triad, and accordingly, as far as meaning is concerned, ignorance can be understood as condition simply for formations of merit and so on. ********************** 61. itaresu pana tiisu kaayasa~ncetanaa kaayasa"nkhaaro, vaciisa~ncetanaa vaciisa"nkhaaro, manosa~ncetanaa cittasa"nkhaaro. aya.m tiko kammaayuuhanakkha.ne pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraadiina.m dvaarato pavattidassanattha.m vutto. kaayavi~n~natti.m samu.t.thaapetvaa hi kaayadvaarato pavattaa a.t.tha kaamaavacarakusalacetanaa, dvaadasa akusalacetanaati samaviisati cetanaa kaayasa"nkhaaro naama. taa eva vaciivi~n~natti.m samu.t.thaapetvaa vaciidvaarato pavattaa vaciisa"nkhaaro naama. abhi~n~naacetanaa panettha parato vi~n~naa.nassa paccayo na hotiiti na gahitaa. yathaa ca abhi~n~naacetanaa, evam uddhaccacetanaapi na hoti. tasmaa saapi vi~n~naa.nassa paccayabhaave apanetabbaa, avijjaapaccayaa pana sabbaapetaa honti. ubhopi vi~n~nattiyo asamu.t.thaapetvaa manodvaare uppannaa pana sabbaapi ekuunati.msati cetanaa cittasa"nkhaaroti. iti aya.m tiko purimattikameva pavisatiiti atthato pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraadiina.myeva vasena avijjaaya paccayabhaavo veditabbo. 56516 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 0:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and James) - In a message dated 3/8/06 6:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > >Howard: > > But it is a *fact*, Phil, > > Thanks for the further feedback, Howard. I think I said as much as I > can or want to on this topic for the time being at least. (I'm trying > to limit my posting time to weekends but got caught up - I think it's > kind of neat that the resolutions many of make and state about posting > more or less or not posting at all are always broken, shows the lack of > control we have over that sort of thing. James seems to be the > exception to this. He must be sotapanna....) ------------------------------------------ Howard: Good for you, Phil! You're a better man than I! I had resolved to reduce my posting, and I did but only for a brief while! LOL! The only mitigating circumstance is that my resolution was to enable more regular meditating, and I *have* been doing that - every day. BTW, you are right about James. He's really doing well with keeping his posting in check. (James, amybe too much? I miss your posting! :-) ------------------------------------------ > > Perhaps someone else would like to take over for me. :) ----------------------------------------- Howard: Nah! I'm kind of tuckered out on this thread! ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > Phil > > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56517 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Control or No control? indriyabala Hi, howard - I am sorry for the communication problem ! >Howard: > You write "I think the rules of Dependent Origination do not explain the beginning or the end." I don't understand what you mean by "the rules." Also, "beginning or end" of what? I don't undestand what you are asking here? (My apologies for that.) It is my fault, not yours; my apologies for causing the confusion. Warm regards, Tep ======= 56518 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 7:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be indriyabala Hi, Nina - Let me give a combined reply to your three messages (#56501-56503) here. >N: When pañña and sati arise, there is restraint or control of the senses at that moment. The doorways are guarded. There is controlling, willing, striving. Kusala citta and cetasikas take action. But they take action just for a moment and then fall away. I do not mean citta and cetasika control vipaaka or the arising of a Buddha. >N: Nowadays we are neyya puggala, needing a lot of advice, or pada parama, who only understand the words but do not become enlightened in this lifetime. Thus, I could be anxious, thinking, what about my rebirth? But the future has not come, and attachment to my rebirth is not helpful. >N: We are still dependent on (leaning on) craving and conceit so long as they have not been abandoned. These should be known as they are by paññaa. That is the way out. ....................... Tep: Thank you very much for your viewpoints. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard and Tep, > > op 07-03-2006 16:59 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > >> > >> I looked up the recommended sutta[AN IV.159, Bhikkhuni Sutta]. The > >> following passages impress me the most: > >> > >> 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying > >> on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' > -------- > N: This body has come into being through craving...through conceit...through > sexual intercourse...through food. > These must be abandoned. > (snipped) 56519 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 8, 2006 8:57pm Subject: The 3rd Noble Truth on the ceasing of Suffering... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Third Noble Truth: Cessation of Craving Stops Suffering!!! The blessed Buddha once said: One should dwell reflecting on all phenomena as mental states in the light of these Four Noble Truths. How does one do so? Here, one sees, understands, and knows this as it verily is: This and such is suffering! This craving is the cause & origin of all suffering! This absence of craving is the ceasing of all suffering! This Noble 8-fold Way is the method to eradicate all suffering! And what, monks, is the 3rd Noble Truth on the ceasing of Suffering? It is the complete fading away, ceasing, elimination, & eradication of all craving. It is the relinquishing release from craving, the detaching liberation from craving. And how is such freeing removal of craving, how is such ceasing of craving gained? Wherever in the world there is anything attractive and pleasant, it is right there and right then, on the spot, that this craving is deliberately left behind & ceases... And what is there in this world, that is attractive and pleasant? The eye, in this world, is attractive and pleasant, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, the mind is attractive and pleasant, and there this craving ceases and gradually fades away. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and mental states are attractive & amusing, & there this craving ceases & bit by bit comes to an end. Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mental-consciousness in this world is attractive & alluring, and there this craving ceases and finally finish. All Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mental-contact in this world is attractive and tempting, and there this craving ceases and slowly leave off. Any feeling born of eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue- contact, body-contact, mind-contact in the world is appealing & fascinating, and right there this craving ceases and steadily die away. The perception and experience of any sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, & thoughts is quite interesting and captivating, and there this craving ceases & grows dim. Intention, wishing, wanting and hoping for certain sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, thoughts, ideas and mental states is enthralling & intriguing, and there this craving ceases and dissolves itself. The craving itself, the drive, push & rush for various sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, & many mental-objects in this world is attractive and seductive, and there this craving also ceases & progressively eliminates itself. Thinking of any sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and mental-objects in this world is attractive & tantalizing, there this craving ceases & falls off drop by drop. Prolonged pondering on certain sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles & the manifold diversity of mental objects in this world is attractive & enticing, & there this craving also fades away, is stilled, ceases, & is finally all eliminated... And that, bhikkhus, is called the 3rd Noble Truth on the ceasing of Suffering... Source (edited extract): The Long Speeches of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya. Book II [306-314] Thread: The Foundations of Awareness. Mahasatipatthana Sutta 22. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56520 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin, illusion and dream. nilovg Hallo Joop, op 08-03-2006 12:28 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Don't worry, this message is not too bitter, partly because I don't > perceive mrs. Sujin as my teacher. ------- N: She said that she is not a teacher, but a good friend in Dhamma. She does not liked to be followed. --------- J: Of course there is always the danger that by thinking self is > involved more than I realize. ------- N: Good, that in itself is right understanding. --------- J: And there is always the danger that something is perceived as a > reality while it's not a reality but something inpermanent (anicca). -------- N: Excellent remark. See below. -------- J: As I said to Sarah some weeks ago: > "... also the socalled ultimate truth is an illusion, there is no > ultimate truth, we need a truth and create/construct it. > Perhaps this is a Mahayana-opinion; I evolve - not being within > anyone's control - to a Mahayanist." -------- N: Do not be misled by the term ultimate truth. The Pali is: paramattha: parama= highest, attha=meaning. It sounds elevated: in the highest sense, but it is quite near to you, right at hand. When you look into the mirror you think that you see yourself, but it is visible object or colour that is seen. When you touch the mirror, hardness or cold presents itself, no you, no mirror. Thus, in reality there is no you, no mirror, but there are different realities that appear one at a time. These are paramattha dhammas, different from conventional realities. We cannot create them, they arise because of their own conditions. That is the meaning of beyond control. You speak about illusion, and here you are not far away from what Kh Sujin emphasized all the time: we are living in a dream world. I heard this on tape: We should understand her words, there is nothing, in the right sense. This is not annihilation, because there are conditions for the arising of dhammas all the time. But she means: it is not important. Don't we find all our experiences very important? I think of ruupa like a lump of foam, feeling like a bubble of water, as the sutta states. Also the simile of a mirage is used. And see the words taken from the Diamond Sutta Howard attaches to his posts. Nina. 56521 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conceit nilovg Dear Han, op 09-03-2006 00:17 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > (ii) Why is there conceit when one thinks oneself > inferior to someone else? > I think it is due to “self-importance, one of the > manifestations of conceit. > Suppose I am abused by a person superior to me. > I would think “Okay, you are better than me in that > aspect. So what? > I would think that way because of my conceit. -------- N: When one thinks oneself inferior to someone else, there may also be clinging to the importance of self. Conceit is bound to arise when there is thinking of he and me. Someone paints a wall and I am thinking: I would do better than him. Or: he is much better. Or: he knows more Dhamma than I do. There is conceit when one upholds oneself. But the citta at that moment has to be known as it is. What is the use of comparing? But conceit can also arise when we do not compare. Whenever we find ourselves important it arises. Of course, when the Buddha said: I am the best, it was different. He had eradicated all conceit. To be sure when there is conceit there has to be direct awareness and understanding of it when it appears. I heard this morning on tape: The first stage of tender insight has to arise first, otherwise naama cannot be known as naama. Nina. 56522 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2), a beginner. nilovg Dear Han, I am a beginner and I can only help others to a certain point, not beyond that. When it comes to clear, direct understanding, I only know the theory, I do not have the deep understanding of dhammas as they present themselves now. I am beginning to study with awareness some dhammas, but very few. I suggested to you to ask Kh. Sujin about insight, because she has deep, direct understanding. One senses this by her way of explanation. Nina. 0p 08-03-2006 23:16 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > I do like Acharn’s teachings. > But I would rather learn her teachings through your > books. 56523 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 0:44am Subject: Re: The 3rd Noble Truth on the ceasing of Suffering... !!! leoaive Hi All professional priesthood can be attractive, then it should be removed too. What do you think? 56524 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 2:17am Subject: Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be philofillet Hi Howard > Howard: > Good for you, Phil! You're a better man than I! I had resolved to > reduce my posting, and I did but only for a brief while! LOL! Ph: It's funny, isn't it. I think DSG gives us a good opportunity to reflect on the difference between lobha and wholesome chanda. What drives us to post here when we've resolved to cut back? There can be wholesome chanda, the wholesome desire to learn more, discuss more, help people etc. Alas, in my case at least it is usually lobha because I get bored with whatever I am doing and go back to the internet again and again and again. And now the baseball season is coming....sigh... The only mitigating > circumstance is that my resolution was to enable more regular meditating, and > I *have* been doing that - every day. Ph: Mudita. Go for it, Howard! :) > BTW, you are right about James. He's > really doing well with keeping his posting in check. Ph: Yes, and I think it might be done out of respect for his partner's feelings, which is great. Phil p.s one final comment re this thread. There is nothing hopeless about moments of understanding. I don't understand why you use that word "hopeless" so often. A moment of understanding that pierces the web of delusion...how wonderful! And even the moments that don't pierce the web, but help to see through it...and knowing that each moment of understanding conditions more of the same. Nothing hopeless there, that I can see. There is progress. 56525 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 2:29am Subject: Example of the second kind of dukkha? philofillet Hi all I'd been half dreading and half longing to hear these famous "Eric talks" and they arrived today. (Thanks Sukin and your staff for sending them, and Sarah and Jon) I was half dreading hearing them because I thought there would be aversion and we cling so much to comfort and want to avoid aversion. And when I heard Eric introduce himself at the beginning and talk about his teachers' lineage and how one is a master of Buddhist debate I thought "Oh Christ, here we go..." And surprise, surprise, I find him to be a delightfully enthusiastic, eloquent and knowledgeable person to listen to. He disagrees forcefully at times, but respectfully, brings out the best in Acharn Sujin as well! :) I will post one thing I heard, near the beginning of the first talk. It seems there are three kinds of dukkha. The first is body or mental unpleasant feeling, the second is the dukkha of change, and the third I forget. Pervasive dukkha or something. Acharn Sujin asked Eric to think of an example of the second dukkha in daily life, the dukkha of change. He came up with an example of having to leave his comfortable flat to live in a miserable place, but she said no, that would be the first kind, because of the mental/physical unpleasantness involved. Sukin suggested the shifting of position when we're sitting etc but she said no, not that. I flipped ahead to the next talk at this point to leave the answer hanging. So I offer it to anyone who's interested. What's an example of the second kind of dukkha, the dukkha of change, in daily life? I'll listen to Acharn Sujin's answer in a couple of days and post it here for those that are interested and haven't heard it yet. Phil 56526 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conceit hantun1 Dear Nina Thank you very much. It is very clear now. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: When one thinks oneself inferior to someone else, > there may also be > clinging to the importance of self. Conceit is bound > to arise when there is > thinking of he and me. 56527 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2), a beginner. hantun1 Dear Nina, I think you are just being very modest. Anyway, thank you very much for your kind advice. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I am a beginner and I can only help others to a > certain point, not beyond > that. 56528 From: "Madhoor" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 2:02am Subject: New Member madhoor2000 Regards to all, I have just now joined this Group. I have been fortunate enought to be in company of friends who are studying dhamma. Have superficial knowledge of meditation and dhamma. Wish to learn more.. Hope all here will give me a chance to learn more. Newtone. 56529 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member nilovg Dear Newtone, welcome to our group. Yes, it is helpful to have exchanges about Dhamma with friends. Like you, we all wsih to learn more. You can help us all by your remarks and questions, no matter what kind of questions. Nina. op 09-03-2006 11:02 schreef Madhoor op madhoor2000@...: > Regards to all, > > I have just now joined this Group. I have been fortunate enought to be > in company of friends who are studying dhamma. Have superficial > knowledge of meditation and dhamma. Wish to learn more.. Hope all > here will give me a chance to learn more. > > Newtone. 56530 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Example of the second kind of dukkha? nilovg Hi Phil, no. 2: viparinaama dukkha, no 3: dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away, sa"nkhaara dukkha. Example 2: Dispeller of Delusion (p. 113): bodily and mental pleasant feeling are dukkha in change, . For instance you are in good health and live in comfort, but this changes. I forgot her answer, but the talks are good. Nina. op 09-03-2006 11:29 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > The first is body or > mental unpleasant feeling, the second is the dukkha of change, and > the third I forget. Pervasive dukkha or something. 56531 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, giving up kilesas. nilovg Hi Howard and Kel, Nice to see you Kel. This is a matter of relinquishing. If you want to get rid of the wrong view of self it is good to be generous in giving also. Getting rid of the clinging to self is also a kind of giving, of relinquishing. We can say: giving up of kilesa. We have to think of the citta that lets go. Not of receivers. We do not think of persons who give and receive, but of the quality of citta. Nina. op 08-03-2006 23:25 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > also reminded of a recent thread about dana too in connection. For >> people who are strong in dana, Buddha encouraged them to give away >> everything, especially kilesas. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > But there should be no recipient for the kilesas! For that would not > be a nice gift! LOL! 56532 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2), a beginner. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/9/06 4:31:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > I am a beginner and I can only help others to a certain point, not beyond > that. When it comes to clear, direct understanding, I only know the theory, > I do not have the deep understanding of dhammas as they present themselves > now. I am beginning to study with awareness some dhammas, but very few. > ==================== This is wonderfully honest, Nina. Also it is heartening to read "I am beginning to study with awareness some dhammas, but very few." To see any dhammas, even a scant few, directly, as they actually are, empty of satisfiability, empty of permanence, and, especially (IMO), empty of self - to even just begin to do so - is a great accomplishment! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56533 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: We Start Where We Are, Not Where We Want to Be upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 3/9/06 5:19:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > p.s one final comment re this thread. There is nothing hopeless > about moments of understanding. I don't understand why you use that > word "hopeless" so often. A moment of understanding that pierces the > web of delusion...how wonderful! And even the moments that don't > pierce the web, but help to see through it...and knowing that each > moment of understanding conditions more of the same. Nothing > hopeless there, that I can see. There is progress. > > ======================= Please read again what I have characterized as expressing an attitude of hopelessness and helplessness. Moments of genuine understanding are never to be criticized in the slightest, and I certainly do not criticize them. I praise them and revel in them and the activities that support their arising. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56534 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 10:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) matheesha333 Hi Tep, T: At the beginning of the training (to > become a sekha), however, only saddha and viriya do all the hard work > before the remaining faculties arise; M: I dont agree Tep. Viriya is needed to do what? To maintain sati. Sati is needed for what? To develop Samadhi. Samadhi is required for what? To develop Panna. One needs to see arising and passing away of dhammas to see that there is no self, that the dhammas are connected via paccaya. Without sati there will be no samadhi and the mind will be in too much turmoil to see such subtle phenomena. The mind will be clouded by the 5 hindrences (like 'dye, mud, algae' etc) and no dhammas will be visible. metta Matheesha 56535 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 10:48am Subject: Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. was [dsg] Re: Meeting with Acharn Sujin matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > S: The eradication of stinginess and be 'freely generous' doesn't mean > everything has to be given away. We're talking about the mental states, > not the living appearances. I don't think it's correct to equate the one > with the other, do you? M: No they are not equal. But they one influences the other. I would hope that a sotapannas dana is not just limited to thoughts and spills over into speech and actions. Just as there are a few types of sotapannas i guess there must be variation in their dana practice as well. But to say 'this much of dana practice is required for a sotapanna' is simply not possible. Infact I dont believe it is possible for someone to accurately judge the matter at all...and is irrelavent. Just keep improving that sila, samadhi, panna until all dukkha is irradicated. That is what I believe now. > Good to see your posts again. Your one on laylife which you f/w contained > a lot of good textual material, thx. M: Thanks. > p.s How was your trip to Sri Lanka? I vaguely remember writing to you just > as you were leaving. I wonder if you reflected further or discussed any of > the points from the discussions here while you were there? M: I do absorb what is useful for my practice from whatever source. The task is not easy and I use all the help I can get. Your emphasis on right view and discussion is something I have taken on board. It has given me more motivation to practice so many thanks to everyone in this group. It has turned out to be the only group where I can learn something new from as well. The group I belong to in sri lanka are jhaana and vipassana practitioners. So the majority of the discussion were on those lines. But I did have a sutta discussion on the mahacattasarika sutta, focusing a bit more on mindfulness, right effort and right view in developing each factor of the N8FP. I do recall you sending me a list of questions right before i left. I'm not sure where it is rihgt now, but if you can dig it out from under this waterfall of posts, I can, with time, discuss each one with you. metta Matheesha 56536 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2), a beginner. nilovg Hi Howard, No, not yet as empty of satisfiability, empty of permanence, and, empty of self. It is more:beginning to become familiar with some characterstics of dhammas, but a very vague awareness. Moreover, how could the three general characteristics come to be realized if there is no clear understanding of the nama that appears and the rupa that appears? When visible object appears it is evident that there is seeing, but sati can be aware of only one dhamma at a time. Now I mix them up. No clear distinction. But here I enter a delicate field for you: the knower and the known. The experience and the object. Nina. op 09-03-2006 15:51 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > To see any > dhammas, even a scant few, directly, as they actually are, empty of > satisfiability, empty of permanence, and, especially (IMO), empty of self - to > even just > begin to do so - is a great accomplishment! 56537 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 1:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Trees and Anger (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I don't have that much time today to reply but I hope to before I leave for Hong Kong on the 30th. I will be staying until the 20th of April. It would also be nice to meet you all when I get there (I am not sure if I will have access to the internet) so send me a way to contact you. Best Regards, Charles A. DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 12:05 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Trees and Anger (was Re: Did Buddhaghosa (formal) meditate? (Was: Reasons for staying on DSG Part 2 contd <...> > C: Why is it important to learn the difference between direct awareness > of > realities and thinking about realities? > > S: "." .... S: By thinking about realities, there will never be any development of the Path and it will never lead to the direct understanding, realisation of nibbana, release from Dukkha etc. Nothing is actually known by thinking. Doubts and wrong views can never be overcome in this way. .... <..> > C: By "direct awareness," do you mean full attention? > > When you say, ".understand what is experienced when we look at a > computer > and what can be directly known," are you trying to say we need to > separate, > or know the difference between, the thought about an object from the > perception of the object? > > S: "." .... S: By 'direct awareness', I don't mean 'full attention' as we use it in a conventional sense. There can be 'direct awarness' when we're very distracted (in a conventional sense) or anytime at all. Direct awareness refers to the awareness of a dhamma when it appears momentarily. We need to know the difference between the reality of thinking and the concept of the object which is only ever an idea. .... <...> 56538 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 3:30pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... the highly-confident people. indriyabala Dear Matheesha (and Sarah)- The five faculties is the basis of the noble knowledges. So it is always a good idea to discuss Indriya. We had discussed Indriya before (also with Sarah), remember? > > T: At the beginning of the training (to > > become a sekha), however, only saddha and viriya do all the hard > >work before the remaining faculties arise .. > > M: I dont agree Tep. Viriya is needed to do what? To maintain sati. > Sati is needed for what? To develop Samadhi. Samadhi is required for > what? To develop Panna. One needs to see arising and passing away of > dhammas to see that there is no self, that the dhammas are connected > via paccaya. > > Without sati there will be no samadhi and the mind will be in too >much turmoil to see such subtle phenomena. The mind will be clouded >by the 5 hindrences (like 'dye, mud, algae' etc) and no dhammas > will be visible. > Tep: If you disagree, then why did you skip saddha(conviction) and started instead with viriya? That means you know that saddha (on the Buddha and his Dhamma), which is motivated by a right view about kusala and akusala, is at the very beginning of the development of the five faculties (Indriya). You are right with respect to the importance of sati and samadhi. However, there are people here who would disagree with you! They will certainly say that the development of the five faculties is NOT sequential. Their view contradicts with several suttas I know (one of which is quoted below) ................ The Buddha: Tell me, Sariputta: A noble disciple who is thoroughly inspired by the Tathagata, who has gone solely to the Tathagata [for refuge], could he have any doubt or uncertainty concerning the Tathagata or the Tathagata's teachings? Sariputta: No, lord....With a noble disciple who has conviction, it may be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities, that he will be steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. Whatever persistence he has, is his faculty of persistence. [SN XLVIII.50. Paragraph 74 in "Wings to Awakening"] ................. Tep: Once the disciple has his Viriya-indriya well developed for abandoning akusala and for attaining kusala, then his midfulness - as the direct consequence- will be qualiied as 'sati-indriya'. After that, of course, his concentration faculty will be developed. ... ................. "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, it may be expected that he will be mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago. Whatever mindfulness he has, is his faculty of mindfulness. With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, and whose mindfulness is established ('tuned'), it may be expected that- making it his object to let- he will attain concentration and singleness of mind. Whatever concentration he has, is his faculty of concentration." [endquote from SN XLVIII.50.] The reason I quoted suttas all the time is because 90% of people here easily reject my dhamma discussion! But, most of the time, even after giving sutta quotes the same people still reject my explanation anyway -- as Tep's interpretation that is motivated by lobha and atta-ditthi, etc. {:>|). Well, this is an excellent opportunity to practice letting go! Yours truly, Tep ====== 56539 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 10:14pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction contd) The Buddha pointed out the dangers and disadvantages of akusala, its ill effects both in this life and in the lives to come. It is right understanding which sees the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. We can find out from our own experience that happiness connected with attachment makes us restless, since attachment can never be satisfied, and that generosity and consideration for others can condition peace of mind. We may be inclined to anger, but when we see the value of kusala we can develop loving kindness. We may be inclined to stinginess, but when we see the value of generosity there are conditions for generosity instead of stinginess. The kusala citta which arises falls away immediately but kusala is accumulated and thus there is a condition for the arising of kusala citta again later on. Mindfulness of nåma and rúpa is difficult so long as sati has not been accumulated. If we see that right understanding cannot grow without mindfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment, there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness more often. There is no other moment but the present moment in which we can develop right understanding. The Buddha used the simile of the well-trained horse, the “thorough-bred”, in order to point out that right understanding should be developed. A horse does not become well-trained in one day, he has to practise certain things over and over again. In the same way we should not expect to attain enlightenment without developing right understanding. ***** (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 56540 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (d) hantun1 Dear Sarah, From your presentation I noted the following sentence. “The kusala citta which arises falls away immediately but kusala is accumulated and thus there is a condition for the arising of kusala citta again later on.” Based on this sentence, I have the following statement to make. When one does wholesome deeds kusala cittas arise while doing these wholesome deeds. These kusala cittas fall away but kusala is accumulated which will become a condition for the arising of kusala cittas again later on. Thus, by doing wholesome deeds now, one can condition the arising of kusala cittas later on. Do you agree? With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > The kusala citta > which arises falls away immediately but kusala is > accumulated > and thus there is a condition for the arising of > kusala citta again > later on. 56541 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discern = pajaanaati ? sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Thanks for all the good sutta quotes using pajaanaati. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all - > > What does "discern" mean? > > 1. Metta.net Dictionary: discern = parijaanaati (to know accurately or > for > certain), pari~n~naata. Discernment = abhijaanana, pari~n~naa. > > 2. PTS Dictionary: pajaanaati = to know, find out, come to know, > understand, distinguish D i.45 (yathaabhuuta©¯ really, truly). > Abhijaana [Sk. abhij~naana] recognition, remem- brance, recollection. > > The word 'discern' appears in many suttas, for example : > > 'When one discerns, greed does not come into being, which is why he > remains with his mind not conquered by greed.' [AN X.24, Cunda Sutta] ..... S: I believe pajaanaa is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na and sammadi.t.thi (as given in the texts). Pajaanaati is the verb, as in 'he knows' (or discerns). We discussed it with regard to the Satipatthana Sutta before and how in the quote about 'going', he knows the characteristics (lakkhana)of dhammas whilst walking etc. ... <...> > These suttas tell me that "discernment" is seeing and knowing things > (dhammas) the way they truly are. Do you think differently? If so, > please > share your thought with me. ... S: I agree - directly knowing dhammas as dhammas. Thx again for your good quotes. Btw, your reply to Matheesha in which you warned him that you 'may sound like that of Nina and Sarah', #56430, was very good, I thought!!! It was interesting because I hadn't read yours when I replied to just the same comments of Math's. There was a lot in common in our replies, although you added good detailed sutta referencing of course. I agreed with all your points (no surprise!!) and we both left the last part of his message unanswered:)). Let's enjoy the agreement while it lasts, Tep! Metta, Sarah ====== 56542 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I know mano-dvaara vithi and secondary mano-dvaara > vithi. > > If I understand you correctly, kusala kamma and > yonisomanasikaara arise simultaneously during javana > cittas, and similarly, akusala kamma and > ayonisomnasikaara arise simultaneously during javana > cittas. > > So there is no question of which comes first. .... S: Please read these letters I wrote before, especially the first one, and add any comments you have: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/54159 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41584 In brief, manasikara refers to a universal cetasika, but as I understand, yonisomanasikaara and ayonisomanasikaara refer to 'the set' when the javana cittas in a process are kusala or akusala. Akusala kamma refers to the particular akusala cetana accompanying the akusala javana cittas. I think my first message clarifies further. People have the (mistaken) idea that the javanas are conditioned or controlled by the manodvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness) which is the 'controller' of the process. However, the cause or condition of kusala and akusala is not this 'rootless citta', but the previous accumulations of kusala and akusala which condition more of the same by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). Again, often there's an idea of 'doing something' to 'attend wisely' or 'guard' the subsequent javana cittas, but as I see it, the conditions are there by accumulations and by the development of wisdom or no wisdom, not by any 'doing' or special attending. The cittas are far too quick for that and there's no self, no manodvaravajjana citta either, which can affect or change the javanas following. I'll look forward to any further comments you have. Let me know if I missed your point. Metta, Sarah ======= 56543 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 9, 2006 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. We All Can Do It. sarahprocter... Dear Tep & all, --- indriyabala wrote: > "Or, not breaking through to that, not penetrating that, with the > destruction of the three fetters they are 'seven-times-at-most-ers' > (sattakkhattuparama): after transmigrating & wandering on among > devas & human beings, they will put an end to stress." [AN III.89] .... S: this was exactly the kind of quote I had in mind before when there was discussion before about the 'seven times at most'. I think it's pretty clear that the seven times refers to any lives (i.e as devas and human beings). I forget who suggested otherwise before... Metta, Sarah p.s Just saw the 'we all can do it' in the subject heading - no 'we' to do anything and that's why the path isn't 'relatively easy'. It's not my wisdom, yours or anyone else's. Just a nama which develops when the soil is right. ========= 56544 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > My question to Acharn Sujin was, if one has completely > eradicated atta-ditthi or sakkaaya-ditthi why can’t > one eradicate other fetters as well? For example, > supposing I am a sotaapanna and have completely > eradicated the notion of “I”, if someone comes and > abuses me why do I get angry if there is no “I”. Why > should I have to wait until I become an anaagami not > to get angry? If there is no “I” why should I wait > till I become anaagami to abandon sensual desires > pertaining to “I”? (One can ask the same question with > other fetters.) > > Acharn Sujin replied that the nature of kilesas is > different. They are not the same. So eradication of > one kilesa does not necessarily mean eradication other > kilesas as well. > > Do you have any other explanation, please? .... S: Just taking ordinary lobha (attachment) and sakkaya ditthi (wrong view of self) now....which is more prevalent? Most the time in the day, ordinary lobha is constantly at work, such as when we look out of the window, look at the computer screen, go about our daily activities. Even for small children playing together or watching TV, there is almost non-stop lobha and when we or the child don't get what we like, there's dosa. But there isn't non-stop sakkaya ditthi. The child is just engrossed in the game or the TV programme without any wrong thoughts about self most the time. So, as I see it, ordinary lobha is more prevalent, more tenacious and can be extremely subtle. The grosser kilesa are eradicated first and the most subtle kilesa (i.e very subtle kinds of lobha which we can't even imagine and extremely subtle kinds of conceit) are eradicated last. How does this sound? Metta, Sarah p.s the edited discussions which Phil and Nina mentioned can be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org. The first one you come to is the 'Erik series' Phil referred to - lots of good topics. If you or anyone else would like a cd (in mp3 format), please ask Sukin or me. Any other newcomers might also like to take a look at the DSG links - lots of helpful info there. ======== 56545 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) sarahprocter... Dear Han & Nina, --- han tun wrote: > As regards, the three vimokkhas, I just asked Acharn > the Pali words for the following phrases that appeared > in your book “A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas” on pages > 38-39. > > (1) By predominance ….. ….. ….. > (2) By steadfastness ….. ….. ….. > (3) By inclination ….. ….. ….. > (4) By the way to liberation at the moment of > attaining nibbana ….. ….. ….. > > She first checked with her Thai version. There also no > Pali words, only ordinary Thai language. > Therefore she asked one of her staff to check with the > Dictionary. I was told that the corresponding Pali > words are: > > (1) adipateyya > (2) aditthaana > (3) abhiniiyata > (4) niyyaana ... S:later you corrected these to: 1) aadipateyya 2) adhitthaana 3) abhiniihaara 4) niyyaana I've added these terms in my copy, thank you. When I read the first one, aadipateyya, I remembered the point that K.Sujin made in India and which I asked further about recently regarding what I wrote down as 'atta adhipatteya' or studying dhamma for self, as opposed to loka adhipatteya, for the world, or dhamma adhipatteya, for the sake of dhamma. Nina, you'll remember the discussions. I'm wondering if the aadipateyya/adhipatteya is the same....predominance again.. Actually, I was going to pull out dictionaries and check all this before posting, but out of time, so I'll leave it to both of your Pali expertise first and just post! Metta, Sarah ======= 56546 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner 391- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (b) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. You did not miss my point. Your two previous messages (message 54159and message 41584) have been very helpful. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: Please read these letters I wrote before, > especially the first one, and > add any comments you have: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/54159 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41584 > I'll look forward to any further comments you have. > Let me know if I > missed your point. > Metta, > Sarah > ======= > 56547 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I am satisfied with your explanation. Larry, Howard, and Nina had also given some very good explanations. With metta and deepest respect to all, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: Just taking ordinary lobha (attachment) and > sakkaya ditthi (wrong view > of self) now....which is more prevalent? > > How does this sound? > Metta, > Sarah 56548 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:26am Subject: The 4th Noble Truth on The Way to Cease Suffering ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Fourth Noble Truth: The Noble 8-fold Way ceases Suffering!!! The blessed Buddha once said: One should dwell reflecting on all phenomena as mental states in the light of these Four Noble Truths. How does one do so? Here, one sees, understands, and knows this as it verily and really is: This is suffering! Craving is causing all this suffering! Absence of craving ceases all suffering! This Noble 8-fold Way is the method to cease all suffering! And what, bhikkhus & friends, is this Noble Truth of the Way to Cease all Suffering? It is just this Noble 8-fold Way, namely: Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right View? It is, bhikkhus & friends, knowing such is suffering, such is the cause of suffering, knowing such is the ceasing of suffering, and knowing such is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called Right View... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Motivation? Being motivated by withdrawal, by good-will, and being motivated by utter harmlessness. This, bhikkhus & friends, is called Right Motivation... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Speech? Refraining from any lying, from slandering, from scolding, & refraining from empty gossip. This is called Right Speech... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Action? Refraining from all killing, from all stealing & cheating, and avoiding all sexual misconduct. This is called Right Action... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Livelihood? Here, bhikkhus & friends, the Noble Disciple, having given up wrong livelihood, lives by right livelihood. This is called Right Livelihood... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Effort? Here, bhikkhus & friends, one makes a decision, makes an effort, stirs up energy, exerts the mind and strives to prevent the arising of unarisen evil disadvantageous mental states. One makes a decision...and strives to overcome any evil disadvantageous mental state that already have arisen. One makes a decision... and strives to develop unarisen advantageous mental states. One makes a decision, makes an effort, stirs up energy, exerts the mind and strives to maintain any advantageous mental states that already have arisen, not letting them fade away, growing them greater, to the fulfilled perfection of development. This is called Right Effort... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Awareness? Here, bhikkhus & friends, a monk dwells considering the body as a group of mere form, alert, clearly comprehending & aware, thereby putting aside worldly urge and trouble... One dwells considering feelings just as assigned passing mental responses, alert, clearly comprehending and aware, thereby putting aside much worldly urge and troubles... One dwells considering mind & mentality just as ever changing moods, alert, clearly comprehending and aware, thereby putting aside more worldly urge and trouble... One dwells considering all phenomena only as always shifting mental states, alert, clearly comprehending and aware, thereby putting aside all worldly urge & trouble.... This is called Right Awareness... And what, bhikkhus & friends, is Right Concentration? Here, secluded from sensual desires, protected from any detrimental mental state, one enters & dwells in the 1st jhana; full of joy & pleasure born of solitude, joined with directed & sustained thought. Again, with the stilling of directed & sustained thought, one enters & dwells in the 2nd jhana, calmed and assured unification of mind, in joy & pleasure now born of a concentration, which is devoid of any thought! Again, friends, with the fading away of joy, one dwells in equanimity, just aware & clearly comprehending, still feeling pleasure in the body, one enters upon & remains in the 3rd jhana, regarding which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware equanimity one dwells in pleasure!' Again, friends, with the leaving behind of both pleasure and pain, & with the prior fading away of both joy & sorrow, one enters & dwells in the 4th jhana; a serene mental state of still, open and clear awareness, purified by the equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure! This is called Right Concentration... And that, bhikkhus & friends, is called the Way leading all to the Ceasing of Suffering... Source (edited extract): The Long Speeches of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya. Book II [306-314] Thread: The Foundations of Awareness. Mahasatipatthana Sutta 22. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56549 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Acharn Sujin (2) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Rhys Davids Dictionary: adhipateyya = is probably misreading for aadhipateyya. aadhipateyya = supreme rule, lordship, sovereignty, power. Thus, according to Rhys Davids you have to take the word “aadhipateyya” to mean predominance. I also checked with Patisambhidamagga. There also, in Pali text, "aadhipateyya" is used. However, in Pali-Myanmar Dictionary, adhipateyya and aadhipateyya have the same meaning. My opinion is they are the same, but in this particular instance, since they are taken from Patisambhidamagga, we will have to go by Patisambhidamagga Pali text and take the word “aadhipateyya”. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & Nina, > > I'm wondering if the aadipateyya/adhipatteya is the > same....predominance > again.. > 56550 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:17am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... the highly-confident people. matheesha333 Hi Tep, five faculties (Indriya). > > You are right with respect to the importance of sati and samadhi. > However, there are people here who would disagree with you! They will > certainly say that the development of the five faculties is NOT > sequential. Their view contradicts with several suttas I know (one of > which is quoted below) M: Excellent quotation. I had not seen it before. Wings To Awakening seem to be quite good. I picked up another quote from it on mastery of jhana which i hadnt come across before. I think i have not fully read what you had typed and thought you said that only sadda and viriya would be enough to attain sotapanna state. My apologies. metta Matheesha --------------------------- > > ................ > > The Buddha: Tell me, Sariputta: A noble disciple who is thoroughly > inspired by the Tathagata, who has gone solely to the Tathagata [for > refuge], could he have any doubt or uncertainty concerning the > Tathagata or the Tathagata's teachings? > > Sariputta: No, lord....With a noble disciple who has conviction, it > may be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for > abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental > qualities, that he will be steadfast, solid in his effort, not > shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. Whatever > persistence he has, is his faculty of persistence. > [SN XLVIII.50. Paragraph 74 in "Wings to Awakening"] > > "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and > persistent, it may be expected that he will be mindful, highly > meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that > were done and said long ago. Whatever mindfulness he has, is his > faculty of mindfulness. > > With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and > persistent, and whose mindfulness is established ('tuned'), it may be > expected that- making it his object to let- he will attain > concentration and singleness of mind. Whatever concentration he has, > is his faculty of concentration." [endquote from SN XLVIII.50.] 56551 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. We All Can Do It. matheesha333 Hi Tep, Sarah, Perhaps going back to the original question ..relatively easy? as far as the adhipanna sikkha is concerned- these first 3 fetters are abandoned by 'seeing'. This is probably easier than having to remove fetters by abandoning (as in craving and aversion) in the higher stages. metta Matheesha 56552 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:45am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Intro scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, ". . . but when we see the value of kusala we can develop loving kindness. . . when we see the value of generosity there are conditions for generosity instead of stinginess. . . kusala is accumulated and thus there is a condition for the arising of kusala citta again later on." "If we see that right understanding cannot grow without mindfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment, there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness more often." Is it that "see[ing] the value of kusula, [or of] generosity," or "see[ing] that right understanding cannot grow without mindfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment," conditions the further arising of kusula? What is this "seeing the value of" called? What conditions the arising of a "seeing the value of?" Sincerely, Scott. 56553 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:48am Subject: Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 matheesha333 Hi Howard, I came across a post from you- > "Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what > qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?" > "Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames of > reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any > cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." > ---------------------------------- > H: > One point I obtain from this is that the concentration that is central > to the Buddha's way is inseparable from vipassana bhavana. It says here that > its themes are the four frames of reference, not an arbitrary meditation > object to focus on. > M: Now if we are to look at this... "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html M: From the above it seems that samatha and vipassana can be seperately cultivated. You might remember in the yuganadda sutta there is vipassana based on samatha, samatha based on vipassana - apart from both being developed together. metta Matheesha 56554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Mateesha (and Pablo) matheesha wrote: >Hi Pablo, > >... >Thank you for your kind words. My effort is has not been in vain! > > >>[Jon] I think you'll soon learn that there are many, many >>people on internet discussion groups who think they've >>attained jhana. >> > >M: ..and as expected the group that will take it the wrong way as >well. Interesting how praise and blame arise one conditioning the >next, arising one after the other. The worldly conditions. Its an >effort not to moved by either. > There was no blame on my part. When I said there are many people on the internet who think they've attained jhana, I was just mentioning something that I thought may be of interest to Pablo (since he had not previously been aware of personal claims that jhana was indeed attainable). I certainly did not mean it as a put-down of any kind . >So there are people trying to warn you, and telling you that there >are better things to give rise to faith! > In case there has been any misunderstanding, let me say quite categorically that all kinds of kusala, including samatha, were encouraged by the Buddha and are to be developed. The warning I gave was not about samatha bhavana, but about accepting at face value claims by individuals (direct or implied) to have attained jhana. As I said, there are many people out there who think they've attained jhana. Most of these people are intelligent, are sincere followers of the teachings, and are genuine in their belief. However, whether they are correct in thinking they have attained jhana is another matter. In my experience, most people equate samatha with concentration, which is not a kusala quality at all. To summarise, I'm all for the development of samatha, but wary about the claims people make about their jhana experiences. >I think the better way to >give rise to faith, is to experience the first jhana yourself - this >is something Ven Ananda mentions in the suttas. > >Sila-->Samadhi-->Panna >sadda-->viriya-->sati-->samadhi-->panna > > I don't know of any sutta that links the development of samatha to saddha in the teachings, so I'd be interested to know which sutta(s) you have in mind here. But a much more important issue, I think, and one that may interest Pablo, is whether a particular level of samatha is required in order for the development of awareness to begin. My understanding is that the answer to that question is clearly 'No'. In which case I'd like to suggest that there is more to be gained by discussing the development of satipatthana than of samatha, speaking in general terms. Satipatthana is the only form of kusala that leads to the ending of samsara. Jon 56555 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 3/10/06 7:51:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I came across a post from you- > > >"Now what is concentration, lady, what qualities are its themes, what > >qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?" > >"Singleness of mind is concentration, friend Visakha; the four frames > of > >reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its > requisites; and any > >cultivation, development, &pursuit of these qualities is its > development." > >---------------------------------- > > > H: > One point I obtain from this is that the concentration that > is central > >to the Buddha's way is inseparable from vipassana bhavana. It says > here that > >its themes are the four frames of reference, not an arbitrary > meditation > >object to focus on. > > > > M: Now if we are to look at this... > > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through > heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he > should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of > awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should > it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be > concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & > experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should > be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this > way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he > [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity > of awareness &insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html > > M: From the above it seems that samatha and vipassana can be seperately > cultivated. You might remember in the yuganadda sutta there is > vipassana based on samatha, samatha based on vipassana - apart from > both being developed together. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, they can, of course, and absorptive meditation leading to classic jhanas as the first step is a traditional approach. But then the development is imbalanced and the need remains, as the material you provide so correctly emphasizes, to rectify matters and create the balance. But MN 44, it is clear to me, recommends an in-tandem approach, with the concentration involved having the four foundations of mindfulness as themes rather than an absorptive-meditation subject such as a manta or flame or kasina as subject. Note that anapanasati practice, for example, which is a favored implementation of vipassana bhavana, and which takes satipatthana as its themes, *encompasses jhanic attainment at least as a possible development along the way. Any in-tandem approach cultivates both calm and insight, and has a good chance of going far with each, and it is such an approach that MN 44 recommends. But even such an approach may, for one individual, lead to greater development of samatha and, in another person, greater development of insight, and then the balance discussed in the sutta you provide needs to be cultivated. Actually, there should be the attempt, I believe, throughout the practice of such an in-tandem type of meditation to maintain balance, because very strong calm with relatively weak clarity can lead to sinking, and very strong clarity with relatively weak calm can lead to distractive excitement. Part of the mindfulness involved in all meditation, and especially in such a meditation, amounts to monitoring the state of mind in order to maintain balance. -------------------------------------------- > > metta > > Matheesha > > ========================= With metta, Howard * I believe the following portions of the Anapanasati Sutta point towards jhanic attainment as part of the practice: [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.' "[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [So far, possibly 1st jhana] [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'4 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' [Now possibly 2nd jhana] "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [Now possibly 3rd jhana] [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind. [Now possibly 4th jhana] /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56556 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 matheesha333 Hi Howard, for one individual, lead to greater > development of samatha and, in another person, greater development of insight, M: Yes I agree, the need for balance. Samadhi needs balancing with viriya or mindfulness. I agree that I do not understand what this means- balancing with viriya. Any ideas? The anapanasathi sutta seems to suggest a samatha first vipassana later approach as your quoation shows. metta Matheesha 56557 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:44am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... the highly-confident people. indriyabala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > M: Excellent quotation. I had not seen it before. Wings To Awakening > seem to be quite good. I picked up another quote from it on mastery > of jhana which i hadnt come across before. > > I think i have not fully read what you had typed and thought you said > that only sadda and viriya would be enough to attain sotapanna state. > My apologies. > Hi Matheesha - No apologies are necessary, Math. I also have misunderstood you and other members several times before. Warm regards, Tep ===== 56558 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 3/10/06 11:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > for one individual, lead to greater > >development of samatha and, in another person, greater development of > insight, > > M: Yes I agree, the need for balance. Samadhi needs balancing with > viriya or mindfulness. I agree that I do not understand what this means- > balancing with viriya. Any ideas? -------------------------------------- Howard: I have read Ven Nyanaponika, when writing about mindfulness, to say that it serves as a monitoring and mediating factor, so that balance between calm and energy is maintained. It seems that an imbalance in favor of calm may lead to sloth & torpor, and an imbalance in favor of energy may lead to excitement & distraction. -------------------------------------- > > The anapanasathi sutta seems to suggest a samatha first vipassana later > approach as your quoation shows. --------------------------------------- Howard: I really don't see that. Now, of course, a practitioner begins his/her practice seeing all dhammas through a conceptual filter, but as I read this sutta, in seems to me to present a perfect example of an in-tandem approach, because from the outset, in attending to the breath one is attending to a stream of ever-changing dhammas as opposed to a fixed meditation object for strictly samatha bhavana. But as with all practices, one can lean in one direction or another. Meditating by way of "riding the crest of the waves of breath" and lulling the mind favors calming and leads towards jhanas, whereas attending to detail tends more towards the "insight pole". --------------------------------------- > > metta > > Matheesha > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56559 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 nilovg Hi Matheesha, you wrote: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html >> >> M: From the above it seems that samatha and vipassana can be seperately >> cultivated. You might remember in the yuganadda sutta there is >> vipassana based on samatha, samatha based on vipassana - apart from >> both being developed together. ------- N: And a fourth case in the yuganadda sutta : vipassanaa alone, without developing samatha. There was some discussion before and I understood that ATI had left out the last part of this sutta. Nina. 56560 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 393- seeing the value nilovg Dear Scott, may I butt in? op 10-03-2006 13:45 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Is it that "see[ing] the value of kusula, [or of] generosity," or > "see[ing] that right understanding cannot grow without mindfulness of > the reality appearing at the present moment," conditions the further > arising of kusula? What is this "seeing the value of" called? What > conditions the arising of a "seeing the value of?" ----------- N: By listening to the Buddha, reading the scriptures, discussing with friends in Dhamma there are conditions for seeing the value of kusala. When I met Kh Sujin and I went around with her to different places, I learnt what kusala is. I learnt that kusala is actually the kusala citta which is pure, without selfsihness, attachment. I learnt about lobha, dosa and moha and that kusala ictta is without those akusala roots. L learnt from Kh Sujin's example, since I was with her for a long time. It is also said in the Atthasaalini (Expositor) that somone who is inclined to akusala can become more inclined to kusala. I wrote before in my Vis. Tiika study: (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed.> should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: End quote. This may answer part of your questions. When we understand that paññaa cannot grow with mindfulness of what appears now, we shall not look for other ways, or go somewhere else, since we delay mindfulness at this moment. And if there is attachment to having a great deal of mindfulness, we go the wrong way. Nina. 56561 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)accumulation. nilovg Dear Han, While awaiting Sarah's answer, I would like to add something. op 10-03-2006 08:31 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > When one does wholesome deeds kusala cittas arise > while doing these wholesome deeds. These kusala cittas > fall away but kusala is accumulated which will become > a condition for the arising of kusala cittas again > later on. Thus, by doing wholesome deeds now, one can > condition the arising of kusala cittas later on. --------- N: It is a fact that kusala and akusala are accumulated and form conditions for the arising of kusala and akusala in the future. When there is a thought of I can condition kusala later on, there could be attachment to kusala or to oneself who wants to be a good person. We can be attached also to kusala. Then we accumulate more lobha. Kusala citta and akusala citta alternate all the time. It is also true that akusala can condition kusala and vive versa, by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural strong dependence condition. Nina. 56562 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)accumulation. hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, Nina, I thank you very much for your reply. I have noted your remark: “It is a fact that kusala and akusala are accumulated and form conditions for the arising of kusala and akusala in the future.” That was what I wanted to stress. Whether or not “the thought of I can condition kusala later on” is good or bad is another matter, which I will mention below. I am glad you mentioned about pakatupanissaya paccaya. It is the correct paccaya to apply in this case. Upanissaya paccaya has three paccayas, namely, aarammanuupa paccaya, anantaruupa paccaya, and pakatupanissaya paccaya. By pakatupanissaya paccaya, a person can condition (i) good kamma from good deeds, (ii) bad kamma from good deeds, (iii) bad kamma from bad deeds, and (iv) good kamma from bad deeds. If a person does good deeds with saddha, siila, bahusuta, caaga, pannaa, he/she will get good kamma. If the person does good deeds with maana, ditthi he/she will get bad kamma. Anyway, it is very beneficial for me to discuss with you. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > While awaiting Sarah's answer, I would like to add > something. > N: It is a fact that kusala and akusala are > accumulated and form conditions > for the arising of kusala and akusala in the future. 56563 From: "icarofranca" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) icarofranca Hi Jon! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > But a much more important issue, I think, and one that may interest > Pablo, is whether a particular level of samatha is required in order >for > the development of awareness to begin. My understanding is that the > answer to that question is clearly 'No'. In which case I'd like to > suggest that there is more to be gained by discussing the >development of > satipatthana than of samatha, speaking in general terms. >Satipatthana > is the only form of kusala that leads to the ending of samsara. -------------------------------------------------------------------- It´s interesting to remark that Buddhaghosa, in the Vissudhimagga, points out that the Jhanas´ field of action ( a strange idea, but anyway...) belongs mainly to Samatha forms of mindfulness. The other "type" - Vipassana - has got a different scope, methods and "Targets": changing-of-lineage, recollections of supernal worlds, of the virtues of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, an so on. The Satipatthana is a kind of Long Vipassana ( a poor definition, but anyway...), and if one manages to analyse this own pali word - Sati+Patthana - there will be a full lot of new ideas to examine! Mettaya Ícaro 56564 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Correction. hantun1 (Correction) Dear Nina and Sarah, In my last post I had written the following passage. “If a person does good deeds with saddha, siila, bahusuta, caaga, pannaa, he/she will get good kamma. If the person does good deeds with maana, ditthi he/she will get bad kamma.” Please read it as follow. “If a person does good deeds with saddha, siila, bahusuta, caaga, pannaa, he/she will get good kamma. If the person does good deeds with lobha, maana, ditthi he/she will get bad kamma.” The word “lobha” was left out by mistake. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina and Sarah, > > Nina, I thank you very much for your reply. > 56565 From: "icarofranca" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 icarofranca Hi Matheesha! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > M: Yes I agree, the need for balance. Samadhi needs balancing with > viriya or mindfulness. I agree that I do not understand what this >means- > balancing with viriya. Any ideas? > > The anapanasathi sutta seems to suggest a samatha first vipassana >later > approach as your quoation shows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact, at the Anapanasati Sutta, despite its apparent "Progressive Learning" method of mindfulness, the main idea is free of choice: if you feel your mind disturbed out by external efforts, you can take Samatha: it´ll easy your mind till at the Jhana´s level and you will be able to choice any mind object to focuses your mind. If you fell yourself purified of all these hindrances, you can try only Vipassana , calming your breath. If you like in-tandem approaches ( as Howard, for example!!!), you can take Samatha and after Vipassana, and so on. "Balancing with Viriya" seems to me an idea about calm your mind against sleaziness or torpor, by focusing your mind in a counter- concept...it´s just an idea. Mettaya Ícaro 56566 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 upasaka_howard Hi again, Matheesha - In a message dated 3/10/06 12:15:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes in reply to you: > > > >The anapanasathi sutta seems to suggest a samatha first vipassana later > >approach as your quotation shows. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I really don't see that. Now, of course, a practitioner begins his/her > practice seeing all dhammas through a conceptual filter, but as I read this > sutta, in seems to me to present a perfect example of an in-tandem approach, > > because from the outset, in attending to the breath one is attending to a > stream > of ever-changing dhammas as opposed to a fixed meditation object for > strictly > samatha bhavana. > But as with all practices, one can lean in one direction or another. > Meditating by way of "riding the crest of the waves of breath" and lulling > the > mind favors calming and leads towards jhanas, whereas attending to detail > tends more towards the "insight pole". > ======================== In rereading this, I see how it might make no sense. I did, indeed, point out a sequence of early steps in the Anapanasati Sutta that indicate attaining the first 4 jhanas. You are correct in that. The thing is, that I don't think that the jhanas put forward by the Buddha are identical with the absorptive jhanas well known prior to the Buddha. I believe that the jhanas emphasized by him, as discussed in some detail by Sariputta in the Anupada Sutta and by the Buddha himself in the sutta in which he details the night of his awakening to arahantship, recalling his past lives, observing the rebirthing of beings, and actively directing his attention - all from the base of the 4th jhana, are states in which significant mental powers of investigation and volition are available - states that have all the well known jhana factors, but also have much more. It is such jhanas that I believe are most naturally attainable via the in-tandem approach. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56567 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:32pm Subject: Re: Discern = pajaanaati ? Another jackpot! indriyabala Hi, Sarah (and Jon)- I appreciate your careful thought on the term 'discern' and the valuable suggestion. >S: I believe pajaanaa is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na and sammadi.t.thi (as given in the texts). Pajaanaati is the verb, as in 'he knows' (or discerns). We discussed it with regard to the Satipatthana Sutta before and how in the quote about 'going', he knows the characteristics(lakkhana)of dhammas whilst walking etc. Tep: Yes. The sysnonyms above are good and the knowing whilst walking is a good example of pajaanaati ['gacchanto vaa gacchaamii ti pajaanaati']. Jon also made a similar observation. .............. >S: Btw, your reply to Matheesha in which you warned him that you 'may sound like that of Nina and Sarah', #56430, was very good, I thought!!! It was interesting because I hadn't read yours when I replied to just the same comments of Math's. There was a lot in common in our replies, although you added good detailed sutta referencing of course. I agreed with all your points (no surprise!!) and we both left the last part of his message unanswered:)). >S: Let's enjoy the agreement while it lasts, Tep! Tep: I also enjoy it when we agree in all aspects (so that we can move on to more muddy issues). Yes, it does not happen very often (like a jackpot). Looking back, now I know that we did have "a lot in common in our replies" -- no less than half of our past conversations. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Thanks for all the good sutta quotes using pajaanaati. > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > Hi, all - > > > > What does "discern" mean? > > > > 1. Metta.net Dictionary: discern = parijaanaati (to know accurately or > > for > > certain), pari~n~naata. Discernment = abhijaanana, pari~n~naa. > > > > 2. PTS Dictionary: pajaanaati = to know, find out, come to know, > > understand, distinguish D i.45 (yathaabhuuta©¯ really, truly). > > Abhijaana [Sk. abhij~naana] recognition, remem- brance, recollection. > > > > The word 'discern' appears in many suttas, for example : > > > > 'When one discerns, greed does not come into being, which is why he > > remains with his mind not conquered by greed.' [AN X.24, Cunda Sutta] > > ..... > S: I believe pajaanaa is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na and > sammadi.t.thi (as given in the texts). Pajaanaati is the verb, as in 'he > knows' (or discerns). We discussed it with regard to the Satipatthana > Sutta before and how in the quote about 'going', he knows the > characteristics > (lakkhana)of dhammas whilst walking etc. > ... > <...> > > These suttas tell me that "discernment" is seeing and knowing things > > (dhammas) the way they truly are. Do you think differently? If so, > > please > > share your thought with me. > ... > S: I agree - directly knowing dhammas as dhammas. > > Thx again for your good quotes. > > Btw, your reply to Matheesha in which you warned him that you 'may sound > like that of Nina and Sarah', #56430, was very good, I thought!!! It was > interesting because I hadn't read yours when I replied to just the same > comments of Math's. There was a lot in common in our replies, although you > added good detailed sutta referencing of course. I agreed with all your > points (no surprise!!) and we both left the last part of his message > unanswered:)). > > Let's enjoy the agreement while it lasts, Tep! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > 56568 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. We All Can Do It. indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Matheesha)- The 'We All Can Do It' is a really debatable issue! > > --- indriyabala wrote: > > "Or, not breaking through to that, not penetrating that, with the > > destruction of the three fetters they are > >'seven-times-at-most-ers' (sattakkhattuparama): after > >transmigrating & wandering on among devas & human beings, > > they will put an end to stress." [AN III.89] > .... > S: this was exactly the kind of quote I had in mind before when there was discussion before about the 'seven times at most'. I think it's pretty clear that the seven times refers to any lives (i.e as devas and human beings). > > I forget who suggested otherwise before... > Tep: Yes. There was along and round-and-round discussion before. I agree with you that the seven times means seven births, period. .............. > Sarah > p.s Just saw the 'we all can do it' in the subject heading - no 'we' to do anything and that's why the path isn't 'relatively easy'. It's not my wisdom, yours or anyone else's. Just a nama which develops when the soil is right. > ========= Tep: Precisely. For sure the "we can do it" is a mental fabrication. But, without such a label it would be difficult to communicate the idea. Sincerely, Tep ===== 56569 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stream Entry - relatively easy? .. We All Can Do It. indriyabala Hi Matheesha (and Sarah) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, Sarah, > > Perhaps going back to the original question ..relatively easy? >as far as the adhipanna sikkha is concerned- these >first 3 fetters are abandoned by 'seeing'. This is probably easier >than having to remove fetters by abandoning (as in craving and >aversion) in the higher stages. > Tep: I like that very good observation on the phenomenon of abandoning (pahaana or patinissaggā?) the first three fetters. But it is not clear to me as to how to abandon them. Nyanatiloka: There are 5 kinds of overcoming: (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahāna), i.e. the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (niivarana, q.v.) during the absorptions, (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahāna), (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahāna), (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahāna), (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahāna). Tep: Patinissaggaa is "giving up, forsaking; rejection, renunciation" [PTS]. I wonder which of the five kinds of overcoming you were talking about. Or maybe you meant renunciation of the fetters? Regards, Tep ======== 56570 From: "indriyabala" Date: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:26pm Subject: A Clear Pupose of Meditation indriyabala Hi, all - The following passages by Sister Ayya Khema suggest a great practical use of meditation(choose any any definition you like) in daily living. http://www.allspirit.co.uk/allofus.html "The Buddha's formula for the highest effort is worth remembering: 'Not to let an unwholesome thought arise, which has not yet arisen. Not to sustain an unwholesome thought which has already arisen. To arouse a wholesome thought which has not yet arisen. To sustain a wholesome thought which has already arisen.' "The quicker we can become a master of this effort, the better. This is part of the training we undergo in meditation. When we have learned to quickly drop whatever is arising in meditation, then we can do the same with unwholesome thoughts in daily living. When we are alert to an unwholesome thought in meditation, we can use the same skill to protect our mind at all times. "Dukkha is self-made and self-perpetuated. If we are sincere in wanting to get rid of it, we have to watch the mind carefully, to get an insight into what's really happening within. What is triggering us? There are innumerable triggers, but there are only two reactions. One is equanimity and one is craving." [endquote] Best wishes, Tep ======= 56571 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)accumulation. nilovg Dear Han, op 10-03-2006 22:44 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: By pakatupanissaya paccaya, a > person can condition (i) good kamma from good deeds, > (ii) bad kamma from good deeds, (iii) bad kamma from > bad deeds, and (iv) good kamma from bad deeds. ------- N: I just want to add something. This condition describes a relationship between dhammas. Thus, kusala citta can condition the arising again of kusala citta by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya. And so on, for the other cases. --------- H: If a person does good deeds with saddha, siila, > bahusuta, caaga, pannaa, he/she will get good kamma. -------- N: I do not see it personal, see above. Just dhammas or elements. The kusala citta conditions the arising again of kusala citta by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya. Then there is also another condition: kamma produces vipaakacitta by way of kamma-condition. Moreover, there are other factors that are necessary for kamma to produce result. Also pakatupanissaya paccaya is necessary so that kamma can produce result at a particular moment. ----------- H: If the person does good deeds with maana, ditthi, lobha, > he/she will get bad kamma. ------- N: This is more intricate. Maana and di.t.thi are akusala , but they can condition the arising of kusala, by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya, but akusala citta and kusala citta do not arise at the same time. Maana, di.t.thi and lobha are accumulated and thus, more is added to the anusayas of maana and di.t.thi and sense desire. The anusayas condition the arising again of maana, di.t.thi and lobha. The good deed is done with kusala citta at that moment, and we have to consider this separately. As in your example above. Nina. 56572 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:57am Subject: How to Cure Anger & Irritation ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Anger, Aversion, Irritation & Opposition are all diluted Hate: How to cure these painful derivatives of Hate: 1: Review the Danger in Hate like this: 'Ooh this can bring me to a bad destination, the downfall, to pain, even to hell!' 2: Know the outlet is Patience, Tolerance and Forbearance: The Buddha once said: The greatest praxis is patience... 3: Begin and Cultivate meditation on Infinite Friendliness: Sit down a silent & empty place with closed eye and beam from this the heart: 'May I be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' then: 'May my friends be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May my enemies be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this village be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this town be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this city be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this country be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this earth be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this galaxy be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' 'May all in this universe be successful & happy, calmed & freed from all hostility & anger!' so gradually expanding up to and beyond the limitations of space and into the infinitude!!! 4: Note the acute elation & joy of the mind so cultivated by infinite goodness as the 'sign'! Whenever aversion, anger or irritation reappears, then immediately redirect mind to this remembered sign=nimitta of the mind released into infinite good-will. Please indeed note that the anger instantly evaporates and an ability to smile of ones' own foolish temper can begin to shine outward. 5: Know that this training on Infinite Friendliness can induce the first jhana absorption, and therefore can lead to a high rebirth as a divinely fine material brahma deva. 6: Keep on doing that 15-45 min every day. Note the difference in mentality during the day! May all beings be free from suffering, pain and frustration. May all beings live happily. May all beings be free from hate, anger, aversion, irritation, opposition & stubbornness! Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. Khuddakapatha 9 Say anger and you will be happy, slay anger and you will not sorrow. For the slaying of anger in all forms with its poisoned root and sweet sting that is the slaying the nobles praise; with anger slain one weeps no more. Samyutta Nikaya I, 161 Not by anger is Hate ever quenched. Only by Kindness is Hate always quenched. This Ancient Law is an Eternal ... Truth ... Dhammapada 5 see also: The Elimination of Anger, Slaying Anger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 56573 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:57am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 394- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas) Introduction (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction contd) The Buddha used the simile of the well-trained horse, the “thorough-bred”, in order to point out that right understanding should be developed. A horse does not become well-trained in one day, he has to practise certain things over and over again. In the same way we should not expect to attain enlightenment without developing right understanding. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sixes, Chapter I, §5, The thorough-bred): * "Monks, a rajah’s goodly thorough-bred endowed with six points is fit for a rajah, is a rajah’s asset, is reckoned a rajah’s portion. What six? Herein, monks, the goodly thorough-bred endures forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and has beauty… Even so, monks, a monk with six qualities is worthy of offerings… the world’s peerless field for merit. What six? Herein, monks, a monk endures forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and things of the mind. Verily, monks, a monk with these six qualities is worthy of offerings…" * One will learn to “endure” the objects which present themselves through the six doors by the development of right understanding of realities. At the moment of mindfulness of the reality which appears paññå can investigate it so that it will be seen as it is: only a nåma or a rúpa, not self. Eventually one will no longer be absorbed in and infatuated with the objects which are experienced. ***** (Ch24 - Sobhana Cetasikas Introduction to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 56574 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)accumulation. hantun1 Dear Nina, I understand what you are driving at. Your points are: “This condition describes a relationship between dhammas. It should not be seen as personal. Just dhammas or elements. Thus, kusala citta can condition the arising again of kusala citta by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya. And so on, for the other cases.” “Then there is also another condition: kamma produces vipaakacitta by way of kamma-condition. Moreover, there are other factors that are necessary for kamma to produce result. Also pakatupanissaya paccaya is necessary so that kamma can produce result at a particular moment.” -------------------- You are saying that they are all just dhammas. There is no owner, no doer, or no person as “I” or “he” or “she”. From the paramattha sacca point of view you are 100 per cent correct. If I could completely take away “the personal” factor from these equations, I would be most happy. For example, if I can truly consider that the one who is reading your post just now and who is typing a reply to you is not me or Han Tun, but just citta, cetasika and ruupa, I would be very happy. But, unfortunately, this is not the case – not yet. Maybe one day. Anyway, thank you very much for your kind explanation. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > N: I just want to add something. This condition > describes a relationship > between dhammas. 56575 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Matters of Interest from MN 44 icarofranca Hi Howard. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The thing is, that I don't think that the jhanas put >forward by the > Buddha are identical with the absorptive jhanas well known prior >to the Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It´s a curious idea and you can be right, Howard (sometimes such things happen, you see...). Buddhaghosa mentions all gradative scales on mastering the Jhanas, begining with the access sign, continuing with the learning sign and Absorption. A very clever and functional scheme, but one can think about how Buddha and the very early buddhism face the Jhanas´ development on practicioners. Putting aside for a moment the Howard´s well-beloved In-Tandem approach, the multiple methods of mind cultivation teached by Buddha always appointed out for an original ground against the well-known hinduistic methods of mindfulness even in His years. That could be necessary to make a clear-cut difference... and the own Anapanasati Sutta makes a sure path to achieve it, without any recourse of sgins of access, learning and so on: the only clear remark is the gradual sublimation of breathing in-and-out phases. But Howard´s In-Tandem Approach is very traditional too!!!! Mettaya Ícaro --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I believe that the jhanas emphasized by him, as discussed in some detail by > Sariputta in the Anupada Sutta and by the Buddha himself in the sutta in which > he details the night of his awakening to arahantship, recalling his past lives, > observing the rebirthing of beings, and actively directing his attention - > all from the base of the 4th jhana, are states in which significant mental > powers of investigation and volition are available - states that have all the well > known jhana factors, but also have much more. It is such jhanas that I believe > are most naturally attainable via the in-tandem approach. > > With metta, > Howard > 56576 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)a indriyabala Hi, Han - You wrote to Nina: > > You are saying that they are all just dhammas. There > is no owner, no doer, or no person as "I" or "he" or > "she". > > From the paramattha sacca point of view you are 100 > per cent correct. > > If I could completely take away "the personal" factor > from these equations, I would be most happy. > For example, if I can truly consider that the one who > is reading your post just now and who is typing a > reply to you is not me or Han Tun, but just citta, > cetasika and ruupa, I would be very happy. > > But, unfortunately, this is not the case – not yet. > Maybe one day. > Anyway, thank you very much for your kind explanation. > Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly studying, thinking and reciting the stock investing principles every day, will we become rich "one day"? Respectfully, Tep ===== 56577 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasika... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Han) - In a message dated 3/11/06 7:58:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi, Han - > > You wrote to Nina: > > > > >You are saying that they are all just dhammas. There > >is no owner, no doer, or no person as "I" or "he" or > >"she". > > > >From the paramattha sacca point of view you are 100 > >per cent correct. > > > >If I could completely take away "the personal" factor > >from these equations, I would be most happy. > >For example, if I can truly consider that the one who > >is reading your post just now and who is typing a > >reply to you is not me or Han Tun, but just citta, > >cetasika and ruupa, I would be very happy. > > > >But, unfortunately, this is not the case – not yet. > >Maybe one day. > >Anyway, thank you very much for your kind explanation. > > > > Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly studying, thinking > and reciting the stock investing principles every day, will we become > rich "one day"? ------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! That's very good, Tep! Perhaps, though, your very apt metaphor would be better directed at some folks other than Han? (I have presumed that Han is a practitioner - one who consumes the food rather than just reads the menu. ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 56578 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:43am Subject: Re: Letter to Phil 1. Detachment. philofillet Hi Nina and all (and Jon at the end) Ph: (But I > don't know if this is what Acharn Sujin means by "detachment from > the beginning.) > ------ > N: It is helpful to have more understanding of the reality of detachment and > when it arises. It is the cetasika alobha, non-attachment, which arises with > each kusala citta, just for a moment. Ph: It is easier for me to understand adosa (metta) as a paramattha dhamma than it is alobha (detachment) because the characteristic of the former is more familiar (though often we mistake lobha with pleasant mental feeling for metta.) But there is no call for me to try to experience the characteristic of alobha. When there are conditions to experience it, I will. Trying to experience it is a fool's game. But I understand intellectually that there is alobha with each kusala citta. This makes sense. I understand intellectually from the commentaries that alobha does not overrate the agreable object and adosa does not underrate the disagreable one. This is helpful. >It is not a lasting state of mind. Ph: Please allow me to ramble on this one for a bit. "It is not a lasting state of mind." And yet it seems to me that our general approach to Dhamma (which is daily life, nothing more, nothing less) does become flavoured by an intellectual understanding of "detachment" - we do become more prone to being "detached" towards people and things in daily life, less prone to getting caught up in stories about them, angered by them, moved by them, excited by them, saddened by them. The trip to Canada - my mother's behaviour was bizarre at times because of the Alzheimer's, my father is so elderly now that he can't tie his own shoes or walk for long. My father the great cross country skier, the squash champion. So there were conditions for sadness and fear. And yet in the light of the Buddha's teaching there was a shallow understanding of kamma and viapak and processes at work that helped "me" to be there with "them", loving and relaxed and fully present, because there was less clinging to upsetting stories that would have taken me away from the moment. There was no escaping (or not as much escaping) into comforting, illusionary concepts about what was going on. Ah, but there was, of course, because my understanding has not developed enough for there to be anything but thinking about Dhamma. And yet... ....there seems to be a sense of detachment that is ongoing, but that's wrong of course. There are moments of detachment and many moments of thinking about detachment and because of sanna at work and there is the sense of it being an ongoing state, more or less. I spend whole days and weeks without getting upset by the things that used to drive me up the wall. Just thinking. Them emotional balance, emotional health benefit of the Buddha's teaching. At least I know this is nothing more than thinking that is slightly more refined than before and don't believe mistakenly that there is satipatthana. > Detachment can arise now, when there are conditions for kusala citta. At > such a moment we are not attached to our own wellbeing, our progress, and > there is no conceit of being somebody with a great deal of knowledge. Ph: I can see there not being the conceit of being somebody with a great deal of knowledge. I think we can get beyond that one pretty quickly. But I can't see "not attached to our own wellbeing." I think we are *constantly* shifting from unpleasant objects to pleasant ones, constantly dodging unpleasant object. I thank Mike Nease for having helped me to see how much this goes on in Dhamma. We have pleasant mental objects instead of unpleasant ones through our "practice" and mistake it for something profound going on. This goes on all the time. En bref, I think moments of being not attached to our own wellbeing (if wellbeing means pleasant mental and physical feeling) must be very rare indeed. But they are there, and they condition the arising of more, so there is progress. > When we think of detachment, we usually apply this to sense objects as you > know, but we can remember that detachment also concerns the abandoning of > ignorance and wrong view with regard to the dhamma appearing at this moment. > We can come to understand that it is understanding, pañña that leads to > detachment. Ph: I can't wrap my head around this tonight. I understood it clearly when I read it this morning. Nevermind. I sense it is an important point though. I've printed this post of yours out so there will me more opportunities to reflect on it. >As we go about in our > daily life, we are usually absorbed in thinking of people and things, Ph: More than usually. Almost always. We are bound to be absorbed in them. The roof of lobha, the black curtain of ignorance that prevents the understanding of paramattha dhammas to arise. and we > are forgetful of the paramattha dhammas that appear one at a time through > the six doors. We can learn the difference between the moment that there is > mindfulness of a reality and the moment that there is forgetfulness. Ph: We *can* as in it is possible, potentially. Not can as in we are capable of doing it now. I cannot yet know that different. I have never had a moment of mindfulness of a reality as far as I know, though I guess I may have. I have had lots of moments of clear thinking about the very very very very recent past. And that is better than being in a complete fog. But it is not mindfulness. But I am not pressing. When there are conditions for mindfulness, there will be mindfulness, and not a moment sooner. > But, as > Khun Sujin reminded us, we should not mind whethere there is sati or not. Ph: Great minds think alike! :) > She said: Otherwise self is trying to do something, just very slightly. Ph: I enjoyed listening to a fellow named Bruce in the talks I received lately. I always warn of lobha at work in people who intentionally seek sati. He said of course there is lobha when he sits and tried to have satipatthana...there's also lobha if he's walking down there street and tries to identify paramattha dhammas, present realities. I quite often feel when listening to the talks or reading the books that there is too much trying to understand paramattha dhammas, too much too soon. For example, in one talk, you mention that you try to bring what you're reading to the present moment after every paragraph. That sounded like too much lobha- rooted effort to me, to be honest. Of course, for you it might arise more naturally, because of having developed the habit. For me, it is forced. Anyways, my point is that yes the self is trying to do something, always, except, again, for those rare moments. "Wealthy man!" > When we listen to the Dhamma we can learn when kusala citta arises and when > akusala citta arises at such moments. Surely very difficult. I think we can assume that there is a lot of akusala and some kusala but to distinguish them? Isn't that akin to the simile that Acharn Sujin refers to, of the Buddha being able to distinguish obscure Dhammas like distinguishing the salt from the water after it has been mixed? Again, as I said the other day, I am finding it more helpful to reflect on what is vipaka vs. what is not. You posted some comments on this. I wanted to get to it tonight, but won't be able to. Alas, looks like next week. So little time...sigh. Jon, I also wanted to get back to your post tonight but have run out of time. Thanks again. Phil p.s > When she said that we are living like in a dream I answered that I dislike > this idea, I do not want dreams. Then Kh. Sujin said that paññaa can know > that we are as it were dreaming, and if this is not realized, there is no > paññaa. Ph: I think it was interesting to hear about the difference between when we are asleep and dreaming and when we are "awake." The only difference is that in the latter, there *are* sense door processes mixed in with all the thinking. But because of all the moha, we are as good as dreaming most of the time. Thus the old cliche "life is an illusion." It's true. > Each time when I am in Bangkok I understand a little more, that I am > entangled in the idea of self. Ph: Why only in Bangkok? I heard you say in a talk that you think you can learn more in two weeks during an India trip than you can all year. I was a bit surprised, to tell the truth. What's the difference between saying "I can understand more in 30 minutes meditating than I can all day" and "I can understand more in two weeks than I can all year?" Are seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking any different in the Netherlands than they are in India? Are they any different when Acharn Sujin is telling you about them than when understanding is arising, wherever you are? I appreciate that Acharn Sujin has a wonderfully penetrative way of putting things to bring us back to what is really important (understanding paramattha dhammas) so I know what you mean... 56579 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)a hantun1 Dear Tep and Howard, Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly studying, thinking and reciting the stock investing principles every day, will we become rich "one day"? Han: Honestly Tep, I do not understand your question. Please forgive me. Maybe, you would better direct your question at some folks other than me, as suggested by Howard. Thank you very much, Howard. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- indriyabala wrote: > Hi, Han - > > Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly > studying, thinking > and reciting the stock investing principles every > day, will we become > rich "one day"? 56580 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasika... indriyabala Dear Friend Howard (and Han) - Han is indeed a very hard-to-find Buddhist who has 'unlimited metta' that is revealing through his politeness and compromising attitude. I am a Han's student who has tried to learn from him -- but still has failed to pass his exam. {:<|) > > > > Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly studying, > >thinking and reciting the stock investing principles every day, > > will we become rich "one day"? > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > LOLOL! That's very good, Tep! > Perhaps, though, your very apt metaphor would be better directed at some folks other than Han? (I have presumed that Han is a practitioner - one who consumes the food rather than just reads the menu. ;-) > ------------------------------------------- Tep: Han reads the menu very well too! He then carefully makes an order and contemplates while eating his favorite food, without making much noise. BTW: my question is for anyone, not only directed to Han. :-|) Yours truly, Tep ======== 56581 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)a indriyabala Hi, Friend Han - I was barking at the wrong tree, so it seemed. {:-|) > Han: Honestly Tep, I do not understand your question. > Please forgive me. > > Maybe, you would better direct your question at some > folks other than me, as suggested by Howard. > Thank you very much, Howard. > No problem, Han. Sincerely, Tep ========= 56582 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasika... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Han) - In a message dated 3/11/06 9:38:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Tep: Han reads the menu very well too! He then carefully makes an > order and contemplates while eating his favorite food, without making > much noise. > > BTW: my question is for anyone, not only directed to Han. :-|) > =================== Excellent! I'm so pleased with the clarification! :-) My apologies for having wrongly interpreted what you wrote. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56583 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)a hantun1 Dear Tep and Howard, Thank you very much for your kind words. I always have an open mind and I am always learning. My friend Tep, you have taught me a lot too. With metta and deepest respect, Han 56584 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasika... rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > >> > Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly studying, thinking > > and reciting the stock investing principles every day, will we become > > rich "one day"? > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > LOLOL! That's very good, Tep! > Perhaps, though, your very apt metaphor would be better directed at > some folks other than Han? __________________________ Dear Tep and Howard, I also think trading the stockmarket is a good analogy. Jesse Livermore was possibly the greatest trader of the 20th century. From his book. How to Trade in Stocks: Jesse Livermore sent a wire asking his broker to send a large sum of money to his bank account. The operator was shocked: p.27"I've been an operator here on palm beach for twenty years and that was the first message I ever sent asking a broker to deposit money in a bank account of a customer". I"ve seen thosusands and thousands of messages passing over the wire from brokers demanding margins from customers. But never one like yours. I want to show it to the boys" -------- I guess it is just as bad these days. ----------------- ""Wall Street never changes, the pockets change, the suckers change, the stocks change, but Wall Street never changes, because human nature never changes."" --------- p121 I have observed that people who have no knowledge of the stockmarket, but insist on playing the stockmarket, generally lose their money in a hurry. ..give yourself plenty of time for the uninterrupted study of all the elements involved with the stockmarket and remember that the essential to success in the stockmarket is knowledge and patience. So few people succeed in the stockmarket because they have no patience and are generally ignorant of the market and finally they want to get rich quickly." P113 The stockmarket must be studied, not in a casual way, but in a deep knowledgeable way...The stock market with its allure of easy money and fast action induces people into foolishness and careless handling of their hard earned money." RobertK 56585 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)accumulation. nilovg Dear Han, op 11-03-2006 12:03 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > I understand what you are driving at. > > You are saying that they are all just dhammas. There > is no owner, no doer, or no person as “I or “he or > “she. > > From the paramattha sacca point of view you are 100 > per cent correct. > > If I could completely take away “the personal factor > from these equations, I would be most happy. > For example, if I can truly consider that the one who > is reading your post just now and who is typing a > reply to you is not me or Han Tun, but just citta, > cetasika and ruupa, I would be very happy. > > But, unfortunately, this is not the case – not yet. -------- N: Understanding that 'we' are citta, cetasika and ruupa, does not mean that we deny the conventional world. And certainly, the citta, cetasika and ruupa of this individual are different from those of another individual. Different kammas produce different bodily features, cittas poroduce different facial expressions and citta and cetasikas arise because of different accumulated conditions. Also the Buddha was thinking of Aananda and Saariputta, of different people. But at the same time we gradually learn that what we take for a person are impermanent dhammas that arise and fall away. It would be unnatural to only think of citta, cetasika and rupa, of paramattha dhammas. We develop metta and the other brahmavihaaras, and at such moments we think of people. We can think of others with metta or with akusala. Knowing more about kusala cittas and akusala cittas is beneficial both for ourselves and for others. The Abhidhamma helps us to see dhammas as elements we cannot manipulate, like kamma and vipaaka. If we try to condition certain cittas, even vipaakacittas, we shall not understand dhammas that arise because of their own conditions, and the idea of self will become stronger. Thus, when we speak about dhammas and the relations between them, I think it is fitting to consider them as elements, as paramattha dhammas, although this is only intellectual understanding. But I sense the reason for some people to become uneasy (speaking in general now, not to you personally) if others constantly say: that is the self at work, there is the self again. I find it helpful, but I understand that not everybody has the same feeling about this. Do you see any conflict between paramattha sacca and conventional truth? Nina. 56586 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasika... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Tep, and Han) - In a message dated 3/11/06 11:03:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >>>Tep: By the same token, say, if we're constantly studying, > thinking > >>and reciting the stock investing principles every day, will we > become > >>rich "one day"? > > > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > LOLOL! That's very good, Tep! > > Perhaps, though, your very apt metaphor would be better > directed at > >some folks other than Han? > __________________________ > Dear Tep and Howard, > I also think trading the stockmarket is a good analogy. > Jesse Livermore was possibly the greatest trader of the 20th > century. > From his book. > > How to Trade in Stocks: > > Jesse Livermore sent a wire asking his broker to send a large sum of > money to his bank account. > The operator was shocked: > p.27"I've been an operator here on palm beach for twenty years and > that was the first message I ever sent asking a broker to deposit > money in a bank account of a customer". > I"ve seen thosusands and thousands of messages passing over the wire > from brokers demanding margins from customers. But never one like > yours. I want to show it to the boys" > -------- > I guess it is just as bad these days. > ----------------- > > ""Wall Street never changes, the pockets change, the suckers change, > the stocks change, but Wall Street never changes, because human > nature never changes."" > --------- > p121 > I have observed that people who have no knowledge of the > stockmarket, but insist on playing the stockmarket, generally lose > their money in a hurry. > ..give yourself plenty of time for the uninterrupted study of all > the elements involved with the stockmarket and remember that the > essential to success in the stockmarket is knowledge and patience. > So few people succeed in the stockmarket because they have no > patience and are generally ignorant of the market and finally they > want to get rich quickly." > > P113 > The stockmarket must be studied, not in a casual way, but in a deep > knowledgeable way...The stock market with its allure of easy money > and fast action induces people into foolishness and careless > handling of their hard earned money." > > RobertK ======================== You're quite right, Robert. To play without knowing the rules and possibilities will not lead to winning. Likewise, neither will knowing how to play but not getting in the game. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 56587 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:38am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 393- seeing the value scottduncan2 "may I butt in?" Dear Nina, My pleasure. I'm studying your comprehensive response and will get back when I've digested it. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Scott. 56588 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasika... indriyabala Dear RobertK (Howard, Han, ...) - Thank you for extracting some paragraphs from Livermore's book to clearly show why successful trading the stocks is a good analogy to correct practicing of the Dhamma. > >RobertK : > > > I also think trading the stockmarket is a good analogy. > > Jesse Livermore was possibly the greatest trader of the 20th > > century. >Howard: > You're quite right, Robert. To play without knowing the rules and possibilities will not lead to winning. Likewise, neither will knowing how to play but not getting in the game. Tep: Just by reading only a few quotes from the book, How to Trade in Stocks, I am nearly convinced that the author deserved the title "the greatest trader of the 20th century" ! Here is a list of the similarities. Stock market: "Wall Street never changes, because human nature never changes." Tep: The Dhamma is timeless, because human nature never changes. ................ Stock market: "..give yourself plenty of time for the uninterrupted study of all the elements involved with the stockmarket and remember that the essential to success in the stockmarket is knowledge and patience." Tep: The essential success in the Dhamma practice is guided by knowledge (nana, right view), patience, mindfulness and persistence (virirya). ...................... Stock market: "So few people succeed in the stockmarket because they have no patience and are generally ignorant of the market and finally they want to get rich quickly." Tep: People with greed(tanha) and ignorance(avijja) never get near Nibbana. ................... Thank you very much Robert for the nice post. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Tep, and Han) - > > In a message dated 3/11/06 11:03:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > (snipped) > > The stockmarket must be studied, not in a casual way, but in a deep > > knowledgeable way...The stock market with its allure of easy money > > and fast action induces people into foolishness and careless > > handling of their hard earned money." > > > > RobertK > ======================== > You're quite right, Robert. To play without knowing the rules and possibilities will not lead to winning. Likewise, neither will knowing how to play > but not getting in the game. > > With metta, > Howard > (snipped) 56589 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana Cetasikas)accumulation. hantun1 Dear Nina Nina: Do you see any conflict between paramattha sacca and conventional truth? Han: No, I do not see any conflict between paramattha sacca and conventional truth. That is why I could combine them both in my statement: “If a person (conventional truth) does good deeds with saddha, siila, bahusuta, caaga, pannaa (paramattha sacca), he/she (conventional truth) will get good kamma (paramattha sacca).” I agree that some people might become uneasy if others constantly say: that is the self at work, there is the self again. So I think the best thing for me is not to speak any more on this subject matter. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Do you see any conflict between paramattha sacca and > conventional truth? > Nina. > 56590 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 864 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The third aruupa jhaana or aakincinnaayatana aruupa jhaana is very subtle. That aruupa jhaana is aruupa-kusala citta. There is no apparent object as the object is pannatti of natthi-bhaava. So it is very intricate. Because of the nature of the object the citta is also very subtle. It is hard to say whether this citta has perception. If there is a perception there must have an object. Is there any object in 3rd aruupa jhaana? Yes, there is. What is that object? It is hard to recognize because of subtleness. So it is equally hard to say there is non-perception. When this 3rd aruupa jhaana citta is contemplated that contemplating citta is another citta. This citta is also subtle as in case of 3rd aruupa jhaana citta. It is neither perception nor non-perception. This is n'eva-sa~n~naa-naa-sa~n~naa-ayatana aruupa jhaana citta or the 4th aruupa jhaana citta. This 4th aruupa jhaana is 4th aruupa-kusala citta. The object of this citta is 3rd aruupa jhaana citta or 3rd aruupa-kusala citta. Again this 4th aruupa jhaana has to be exercised with five masteries. Now 1st ruupa jhaana, 2nd, 3rd(2nd+ 3rd = 2nd), 4th (3rd), and 5th (4th) ruupa jhaana, 1st aruupa jhaana, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th aruupa jhaana altogether there are 8 jhaanas ( 4 ruupa jhaanas and 4 aruupa jhaanas). For abhinnaa or jhaana power to produce the practitioner has to be free from 5 garuka-kamma. He must not have killed his own father, own mother, any arahat, must not hurt The Live Buddha to bruising, and must not divide the unity of Sangha. Must be avoid sex and senses. He must be able to do samaapatti that is jhaana-samaapatti or jhaana- attainment whenever he wants. This can be achieved through the practice of masteries in jhaana. When these jobs have been done then jhaana and kasi.na exercises have to be done. First the practitioner has to be able to enter pathavii kasi.na with ease then emerge and enter tejo and so on up to the last kasi.na aakaasa kasi.na. When this is finished then he has to do in backward order. After that foreward and backword order one after another. Next he has to enter into 1st ruupa jhaana and then exit and enter 2nd and this up to 4th aruupa jhaana. After that go back downward from 4th aruupa jhaana to the bottom 1st ruupa jhaana. After this jhaana in both foreward and backward order has to be practised. Another step is skip kasi.na like from pathavii then to apo then to piita then to odaata then aakaasa etc in skipping manner while it is in serial in jhaana order that is 1st ruupa to 4th aruupa. Next step is skip jhaana while kasi.na is in order. After that skip in both. In this way all complex matters in jhaana become proficient. Angaa or limbs of jhaana have to be contemplated. Then all the object in jhaana have to be contemplated. Then the practitioner become proficient in jhaana matter. This is just for ordinary person with tihetuka pa.tisandhi. If person concerned is perfected one he or she will have a quick action in skipping, entering, emerging, scrutinizing etc etc. Because of masteries jhaana can arise at will and stop at will. When abhinnaa is to be used these steps must have exercised very well. As soon as the thought arises about the necessity of abhinnaa power then this sammaa-chanda (good-will) can be fulfiled by jhaana power. After determination there arise an abhinnaa-viithi vaara. Before this there arises determination-viithi-vaara. Abhinaa viithi vaara will bve like this... BBBMPUAGAb...................................BBBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJBBB B = bhavanga (life continuum) M = mano-dvara-avajjana citta (mind door adverting consciousness) P = parikamma (mahaakusala citta) U = upacaara (mahaakusala citta) A = anuloma (mahaakusala citta) G = gotrabhuu (mahaakusala citta) Ab= abhi~n~naa As soon as abhinnaa citta arises the task of jhaana power is done and there arise power. At the end there arise B or bhavanga citta and usual cittas arise and fall away as usual. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very helpful for all. 56591 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Icaro icarofranca wrote: >Hi Jon! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>But a much more important issue, I think, and one that may interest >>Pablo, is whether a particular level of samatha is required in order >>for >>the development of awareness to begin. My understanding is that the >>answer to that question is clearly 'No'. In which case I'd like to >>suggest that there is more to be gained by discussing the >>development of >>satipatthana than of samatha, speaking in general terms. >>Satipatthana >>is the only form of kusala that leads to the ending of samsara. >> >> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > It´s interesting to remark that Buddhaghosa, in the Vissudhimagga, >points out that the Jhanas´ field of action ( a strange idea, but >anyway...) belongs mainly to Samatha forms of mindfulness. > Thanks for mentioning Buddhaghosa, whose Vism is full of learned detail. I don't know the particular passage you are referring to here -- a reference would be of interest, if you have it. As regards the jhanas and vipassana, it is sometimes overlooked that the Vism makes a clear distinction between the concentration associated with jhaana and the concentration associated with the development of the path. From Ch.III, par. 27, in Part II, 'Concentration': "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths ... is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." >The >other "type" - Vipassana - has got a different scope, methods >and "Targets": changing-of-lineage, recollections of supernal worlds, >of the virtues of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, an so on. > > But this sounds more like samatha/jhana to me ;-)). > The Satipatthana is a kind of Long Vipassana ( a poor definition, >but anyway...), and if one manages to analyse this own pali word - >Sati+Patthana - there will be a full lot of new ideas to examine! > > Yes, I'm sure. Please share your thoughts! Jon 56592 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 393- ... Perfect Score !! indriyabala Dear Nina (Sarah, Jon, and any Paramattha Devotees) - I am now 100% in agreement with your following perfect-score essay on Paramattha sacca vs sammuti sacca. .............. N: Understanding that 'we' are citta, cetasika and ruupa, does not mean that we deny the conventional world. And certainly, the citta, cetasika and ruupa of this individual are different from those of another individual. Different kammas produce different bodily features, cittas produce different facial expressions and citta and cetasikas arise because of different accumulated conditions. Also the Buddha was thinking of Aananda and Saariputta, of different people. But at the same time we gradually learn that what we take for a person are impermanent dhammas that arise and fall away. It would be unnatural to only think of citta, cetasika and rupa, of paramattha dhammas. We develop metta and the other brahmavihaaras, and at such moments we think of people. We can think of others with metta or with akusala. Knowing more about kusala cittas and akusala cittas is beneficial both for ourselves and for others. The Abhidhamma helps us to see dhammas as elements we cannot manipulate, like kamma and vipaaka. If we try to condition certain cittas, even vipaakacittas, we shall not understand dhammas that arise because of their own conditions, and the idea of self will become stronger. Thus, when we speak about dhammas and the relations between them, I think it is fitting to consider them as elements, as paramattha dhammas, although this is only intellectual understanding. But I sense the reason for some people to become uneasy (speaking in general now, not to you personally) if others constantly say: that is the self at work, there is the self again. ............................... I no longer feel "uneasy" with the way you now talk about the Paramattha sacca. Congratulations, Nina! Sincerely, Tep, ====================== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, > op 11-03-2006 12:03 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > > I understand what you are driving at. > > (snipped) > Do you see any conflict between paramattha sacca and conventional truth? > Nina. > 56593 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:56pm Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 865 ) hantun1 Dhamma Thread ( 865 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In abhinaa there are many things that can be done. 1. flying in the sky (not to show others but for a good reason) 2. walking on water 3. sinking down the ground or earth 4. moving fast with slow walking 5. walking in the sky 6. walking through the walls 7. seeing very tiny things which are microscopic or less than that 8. seeing hidden things 9. seeing things far away 10.seeing things at the back 11. hearing voice and sound far away 12. creating 2 or more identical person up to 1000 or more 13. creating 2 or more different persons up to 1000 or more 14. creating animate and inanimate things with different colours 15. hiding self 16. hiding one from another 17. knowing other people thoughts 18. reading other people's mind 19. seeing past lives events 20. burning self body 21. fountaining from self 22. sparking from self 23. sparking and fountaining at the same time 24. making a storm 25. making a breeze 26. shrinking the journey by cutting away the length of way on earth 27. expanding the way from self and others who follow self 28. spinning things round 29. stopping movement 30. casting a light 31. making night when it is day 32. making day when it is night 33. filling empty vessels 34. emptying full vessels 35. splitting mountains 36. splitting river, sea, ocean 37. collecting rain drops before they reach the ground 38. counting the rain drop as they fall 39. healing all the pain 40. stilling all body functions to almost stop but not to stop And many other powers can be attained if they are properly practised. These cannot happen without 10 kasi.na. Element kasinas, colour kasinas, light kasina, space kasina are all very effective when they are in need to create to help the person. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 56594 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) icarofranca Hi Jon! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks for mentioning Buddhaghosa, whose Vism is full of learned > detail. I don't know the particular passage you are referring to >here > -- a reference would be of interest, if you have it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- As your wish, Sir! I will take as a starting point the main idea of Gotrabhuu - the "Change of Lineage", as a difference between mindfulness based on Samatha and Vipassana. Buddhaghosa mentions the Gotrabhuu in some passages of Vism, mainly,IV 74, XIII 5, XIV 28, 121 ( PTS edition), but I will focus on XXI,126: "But while this name is inadmissible by the Abhidhamma method, it´s admissible by the Suttanta method; for, they say, by that method change-of-lineage takes the name "signless" by making the signless Nibbana its object, and while remaining at the arrival point, it gives its name to the Path.Hence the path is called signless.And its fruition can be called signless too according to the path´s way of arrival". Well, from the Vism. Chapters IV for VII, all the mindfulness ways are described as signal ones, even the Jhanas - access sign, learning sign and absorption. Then, suddenly, Buddhaghosa changes his way, mentioning directly the signless methods, Change-of-lineage included. My argument is that the sign ways are Samatha and the signless methods are basically Vipassana, which are in concordance with the Abhidhamma Sangaha, Chpt. IX,"Samathasangaha" and "Vipassanasangaha". --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The > >other "type" - Vipassana - has got a different scope, methods > >and "Targets": changing-of-lineage, recollections of supernal worlds, > >of the virtues of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, an so on. > > > > > > But this sounds more like samatha/jhana to me ;-)). --------------------------------------------------------------------- When they are signaled, they are Samatha. When they are signless, they are Vipassana - at least it´s the way I perceived it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > The Satipatthana is a kind of Long Vipassana ( a poor definition, > >but anyway...), and if one manages to analyse this own pali word - > >Sati+Patthana - there will be a full lot of new ideas to examine! > > > > > > Yes, I'm sure. Please share your thoughts! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah... I am not a pali scholar, you see: but such type of exegesis is entirely valid on Buddhism! One can just conceive that Sati and Patthana are two distinct words, joined in a one single concept...and it can be of interest tracking back the Sanskrit or Prakrit origin of these words!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 56595 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 866 ) hantun1 Dhamma Thread ( 866 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: 10 kasi.nas have been discussed. There are 10 asubha kamma.t.thaana. They are 1.swollen corpse [uddhumaataka asubha] 2.stained corpse [viniilaka] 3.putrified corpse [vipubbaka] 4.dismembered corpse [vicchiddaka] 5.gnawed corpsed [vikkhaayitaka ] 6.scattered-body-part corpse [vikkhittaka] 7.spread-body-part corpse [hatavikkhittaka] 8.bleeding corpse [lohitaka] 9.lice-eaten corpse [pulluvaka] 10.skeleton corpse [atthika]. What the asubha kammatthaana practitioner first sees as the object of asubha kammatthaana is visual object in front of his or her eyes. But what he or she is developing is just name or pannatti. This initial object is 'dead body of so and so form'. This is initiation of asubha kammatthaana and this object is called parikamma nimitta as it is a preparatory sign of asubha kammatthaana. When the practitioner becomes able to recognise the whole picture in his or her mind and it appears exactly as if it is seen by the eyes, that new object in the mind is called uggaha nimitta or mental image. At a time, when mature, there arise another image and it is called counter image or patibhaaga nimitta. This sign is also a form that is similar to initial object and mental object that it is something like a form of a person. But that appears in the mind as patibhaaga nimitta is free of staining, tethering, bleeding, disintegration etc. When this appears, it is said that the practitioner is said to have the stage of upacaara samadhi or proximate concentration. As this new object, patibhaaga nimitta is free of ugly markers, it is strongly advisable that the practitioners do not have to practise on the dead body of opposite sex. Otherwise, at this stage of patibhaaga nimitta, the attraction may arise and then jhaana will be destroyed. When this new sign arises and there are 5 jhana factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata there is no trace of hindrances of sensuous thinking, aversive thinking, sloth-torpored thinking, spreading-worrying thinking and suspicious thinking. This stage is upacaara samaadhi. When the mind suddenly absorbed into that object and there is complete stillness, then that stage is said to be appanaa samaadhi or appanaa jhaana or 1st ruupa jhaana. As the kammatthaana is asubha, this jhaana is said to be 1st jhaana arises from asubha kammatthaana. The suitability of type of corpse will depend on the personality of the practitioner. If he or she like very much on beauty of the skin then viniilaka or stained-corpse will suffice to control sensuous thoughts. If one is fond of the figure then dismember-scatter corpse will fit him or her and so on. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 56596 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:11pm Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 867 ) hantun1 Dhamma Thread ( 867 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma.t.thaana: 10 kasi.nas and 10 asubha kamma.t.thaanas have been discussed. There are 10 anussati kamma.t.thaana or 10 recollections. They are 1.attributes of The Buddha [Buddha-anussati] 2.attributes of The Dhamma [Dhamma-anussati] 3.attributes of The Sangha [Sangha-anussati] 4.recollection of moral conduct [siila-anussati] 5.recollection of offering [caaga-anussati] 6.recollection of merit [devataa-anussati] 7.recollection of nibbana [upasama-anussati] 8.recollection of death [marana-anussati] 9.recollection of body parts [kayagata-sati] 10.recollection of breath [anapaana-ssati] The first 6 recollections are suited to those who have much saddhaa or faith or confidence in triplegem. 7 and 8 that is upasamaa-anussati and mara.na-anussati are suited to sotapanna. Upasamaa-anussati or 'recollections on goodness of nibbana' can never be practised by puthujana because they have not seen nibbana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 56597 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 865 ) A Strange Email ! indriyabala Hi, Han and Htoo - What happened? I have seen Htoo's messages using Han Tun's email ... Was it due to a spammer's trick? Sincerely, Tep ======== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dhamma Thread ( 865 ) > /cut/ > 56598 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 865 ) A Strange Email ! hantun1 Dear Tep, No spamming, Tep. Htoo requested me to post those Dhamma Threads. I have the threads up to 887. I think he is at present moving about and cannot send them by himself. With metta, Han --- indriyabala wrote: > > Hi, Han and Htoo - > > What happened? I have seen Htoo's messages using Han > Tun's email ... > Was it due to a spammer's trick? > > 56599 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:51pm Subject: Knowing when there is vipaka philofillet Hi all I mentionned in another post that I have been finding very helpful teachings about knowing vipaka from other dhammas. Here is something that I am finding very helpful to reflect on these days. "If we understand at which moment there is vipaka, result produced by past kamma, such as seeing now, can we still believe that there is a self who can cause the arising of particular vipakas? If we have right understanding of the citta that is result, we should know the meaning of anatta, we shall understand anatta when seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object or thinking. This understanding can be a supporting condition for sati to be aware of the realities that appear at such moments and then there will be more understanding of the different characteristics of the realities that arise, each because of its own conditions." Phil