57600 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 7, 2006 10:24pm Subject: Emotional Storms ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Blown around in the Mental Space by Emotional Storms !!! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, even as many winds blow turbulent in the sky, from all the directions of east, west, south, & north, both dusty and dustless winds, both cold & hot winds, both mild & forceful winds, even so do also all the many various feelings arise in this body: Both pleasant feelings, painful feelings and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings perpetually emerge and perturb the mind... Just as many diverse winds, Storms here and there across the sky, So in this very body: The manifold kinds of feelings arise, Both pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant. Yet when a determined bhikkhu does not neglect aware and clear comprehension; Then such intelligent one fully understands Feelings and all their complex aspects... Having fully understood feelings, he is freed of all mental fermentation even in this very life... Remaining in this state, at the body's breakup, Such Expert-Master cannot ever be imagined... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [219] section 36: On Feeling: Vedana. The Sky: Akasam. 12. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57601 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 0:33am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 418- Confidence/saddhaa (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch25 - Confidence/saddhaa contd) Questions i Which are objects worthy of confidence? ii Can confidence arise with mahå-vipåkacitta? iii How do we know when there is confidence? iv How can confidence grow? v What hinders confidence? vi Why is the sotåpanna’s confidence “unshakable”? vii How is confidence “balanced” with the other spiritual faculties in vipassanå? viii At which moment is there confidence in the development of the four Applications of Mindfulness? ix People can take their refuge in the Triple Gem with confidence, but why is the confidence of the non-ariyan still weak in comparison with the confidence of the ariyan? ***** (Ch25 - Confidence/saddhaa finished!) Metta, Sarah ====== 57602 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 1:36am Subject: Marisa's questions. nilovg Dear friends, I also answer Marisa's questions : > QUESTIONS: > 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? N: More than forty years ago. > 2. How did you find out about her? N: From My Thai teacher who was the director of the Thai language school where also Acharn Sujin was teaching. 3. What about her teachings attracted you? That Dhamma is Dhamma and that it does not matter from whom one hears it. The person who explains Dhamma is not important. One has to verify what one hears oneself. Acharn's emphasis on understanding. Understanding is to be developed of everything that is real. Also akusala should be the object of mindfulness and understanding. Dhamma appears in daily life and understanding is to be developed in daily life, very naturally. In that way we can come to know our own accumulated tendencies and inclinations. She explains time and again that understanding leads to detachment. Detachment is important from the beginning until the end of the development of understanding. She helps us to detect the subtle clinging to self that is underlying all our actions, speech and thought. I shall write seperately more about what I learnt. In fact, I had begun to write for a book we were going to present in her honour, on the occasion of her eightieth birthday next year Januari, but she did not want to have any attention drawn to her person. I quote what Betty wrote to us: end quote. Now I shall post what I have begun to write, combining it with my answers to Marisa. Thus now there is a happy ending to it all. Marisa 4. What has been your involvement with the dhamma foundation? N: At that time it did not exist. No special involvement, just visiting from Holland. But it is most useful as a center of Dhamma meetings and sessions. There are always attendants working very hard to prepare all the MP3's with Acharn lectures in Thai, and books are available. There is a library with the Tipitaka and all the Commentaries in Thai, a regularly Acharn consults them with some of her assistans and others who are interested. Then subtle pints of the teachings are discussed. When a Thai text of the Commentary is read, she wants to check the Pali and see whether the translation is correct. M: > 5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with > your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. N: Never studied elsewhere. Nina. 57603 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 1:37am Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Nina, Tep, Andrew, Kom, and everyone, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, James & all, > > It seems to me that the idea of self and clinging to self are so deeply > rooted that when wholesome states such as sati don't arise very often, > there is bound to be attachment and other kilesa (defilements) following > them instantly when they do arise. That's why right understanding has to > develop and know all these different states for what they are, anatta and > uncontrollable. I have a lot of threads going on this one subject and I can't possibly respond to them all, nor would that be very productive. So, I am going to respond within this post by Sarah because it seems to summarize the position of the KS camp (for lack of a better term). Unfortunately, this post is going to be somewhat long (but hopefully worth the read). In order to determine what is clung to and what it not, it is important to examine more carefully dependent origination. From SN 12 Nidanasamyutta: "And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form; with name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called dependent origination." For this discussion, it is important to focus on the feeling-> craving-> clinging part of the formula. Nina, Sarah, Andrew, and Kom have been stating that we have clinging to such things as sati because of a false belief in self, but that is not true. Ignorance, the beginning of the chain of dependent origination, is ignorance of the Four Noble Truths; ignorance isn't the false sense of self. The false sense of self comes much farther down in the links of causation and is caused by clinging. So, in other words, the KS philosophy states that the false sense of self causes clinging, when it is actually clinging which causes the false sense of self. This point will be important later in my analysis. First, I would like to quote a note to this sutta, 8: "This definition shows that ignorance, as the most basic cause of samsaric existence, is lack of knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. Although in popular accounts ignorance is often identified with the idea of self, the definitions here show that the view of self is an aspect of clinging, which is itself conditioned by craving, while the latter is in turn conditioned by ignorance (see An V 116, 16- 21)." I have stated to Andrew that sati cannot be the object of clinging because it is the opposite of ignorance. Andrew responded that sati isn't the opposite of ignorance because it is ineffective for eliminating enmity. However, if one carefully examines dependent origination, understands that ignorance is caused by ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, and then one would see that sati could be called the opposite of ignorance. It is through sati that one comes to realize the Four Noble Truths (the realization doesn't occur through book study alone). True sati doesn't create clinging or craving, this has been agreed upon, but the disagreement is if sati can be the object of clinging or craving. Well, to break it down, again from the Nidanasamyutta Sutta: "And what, bhikkhus, is craving? There are these six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odours, craving for tastes, craving for tactile objects, craving for mental phenomena. This is called craving." Is sati a form? Is sati a sound? Is sati an odour? Is sati a taste? Is sati a tatile object? Is sati a mental phenomena (like a thought, feeling, or emotion)? It is only logical to conclude that sati isn't any of these things- therefore it is not logical to believe that sati could be the object of craving. "And what, bhikkhus, is clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and vows, clinging to a doctrine of self. This is called clinging." Is sati a sensual pleasure? Is sati a view? Is sati a rule or vow? Is sati a doctrine of self? It is only logical to conclude that sati isn't any of these things- therefore it is not logical to believe that sati could be the object of clinging. So what is sati (and you can always assume I mean right mindfulness, not wrong mindfulness when I write "sati")? Here is what the Buddha said: "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness... "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- sati/index.html So, why is all of this important? This is important because it isn't helpful to believe that sati can be the object of craving or clinging. Unlike what Sarah has said above, the doctrine of self doesn't cause clinging to everything except the paths, the fruits, and nibbana- clinging is what causes the doctrine of self! And one doesn't cling to everything. The Buddha taught the four kinds of clinging, and sati isn't included among those four types. What I have also hoped to point out with this post is that the KS philosophy places the wrong emphasis on the doctrine of self because it doesn't rightly see the doctrine of self in terms of dependent origination. I hope this post hasn't been too long, but this is a complicated issue. Metta, James 57604 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 2:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: arahat and D.O., Larry buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > I doubt there would be a sutta that contains words to the effect > "regardless of if they are clung to or not". My point was just that > when conditioned dhammas are described as being dukkha, that seems to be > a general statement of universal application, not subject to > qualification or reservation in respect of arahants. > > Jon > Okay, so you can't provide a sutta quote to support your point. Jon, if you had a strong case, you should be able to show where the Buddha taught what you are saying. I haven't done a lot of searching on this subject, because it isn't really important to the likes of us (as householders, it is very unlikely that we will achieve arahanthood). However, I can quote a sutta which was just recently quoted in this group: Just as many diverse winds, Storms here and there across the sky, So in this very body: The manifold kinds of feelings arise, Both pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant. Yet when a determined bhikkhu does not neglect aware and clear comprehension; Then such intelligent one fully understands Feelings and all their complex aspects... Having fully understood feelings, he is freed of all mental fermentation even in this very life... Remaining in this state, at the body's breakup, Such Expert-Master cannot ever be imagined... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [219] section 36: On Feeling: Vedana. The Sky: Akasam. 12. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Notice the line: Having fully understoof feelings, he is freed of all mental fermentation even in this very life.... Metta, James 57605 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'tor ruen' - carrying on the story~~~~~~(Marisa's qu) sarahprocter... Hi Mike (& Antony), --- "m. nease" wrote: > Is 'tor ruen' related directly to 'papa~nca'? .... S: According to Jon, I should have added a 'g' to make it 'tor rueng'. He says it literally means 'continue + thinking'. Usually of course, as in the examples given, this is papa~nca, especially with attachment and wrong view. I was thinking of the example Antony and I discussed in Sydney when we met. We were discussing dhamma at the time when we heard the siren of an ambulance. Even as we continued our discussion there were ideas and stories about an accident and Antony mentioned he was thinking with concern about possible victims whilst we continued our other topic at the time:-). Just in a split second, so many stories, so much 'tor rueng'. In fact just one citta at a time - hearing of a sound and then 'tor rueng'. No siren, no ambulance, no accident... Even when we read dhamma, even when the cittas are kusala, there are of course stories about dhammas, about cittas and cetasikas, different from when there is awareness of characteristics of dhammas appearing. Mike (Azita, Chris, RobM, Han, Sukin, Matt, Betty (with a nudge from Sukin), Jon, RobK....anyone else), please consider answering Marisa's qus however briefly or even just one of them! Hope you're doing well in Seattle these days.... Metta, Sarah ========== 57606 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 3:47am Subject: Re: Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin philofillet Hi Marisa (and Tom) > 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? Well, I began listening to the recorded talks about a year and a half ago, I guess. I began reading Nina's books about two years ago. > 2. How did you find out about her? Here at DSG - well, technically speaking, first at an American site called "Beliefnet" where someone mentionned Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." > 3. What about her teachings attracted you? Of course, the point is not her, but Dhamma. Especially Abhidhamma, which I didn't know about at all. But in the recorded talks it is true that there is a dynamic of teacher/student. I think what is great about her is that she is a kind of tonic for this day and age. Modern Buddhists are so eager for results that they go wrong - it is the way we are conditioned to be from childhood, to set goals and try to achieve them. When this principle is applied to Dhamma the result can be very pleasant, emotionally, but it is not the path because it is all about lobha (greed, desire of the unwholesome variety.) Acharn Sujin helps us see that there must or can be an appreciation from the very beginning that there must be detachment, as there is with all kusala (wholesome) moments. If we do something without understanding in order to try to have understanding, it will go wrong. She helps us to develop patience in this respect. So she has developed wisdom in this sense - she knows how to answer different people with sensitivity to their needs - it's like she has a lobha detector that tells her when the person is asking out of a desire for immediate benefit. Also, it seems to me that she really has accumulated a penetrative kind of insight into dhammas that exceeds anyone else I have come across, by far. This is not about being able to quote suttas at length (which I'm sure she can - that is not insight) but something that I can't quite put my finger on. But the more I listen and read, the more I appreciate her - the more I appreciate Dhamma. Because of Dhamma so much stress and woe has been shed. I used to intentionally try to create metta in order to overcome sources of aversion in my life, but of course that was all about a man trying to be more loving, which is *not* the point of the Buddha's teaching. Now, without ever thinking about metta, I sense there is more metta in daily life, arising conditioned by understanding of the anattaness of nama and rupa, of vipaka, of seeing and all that is experienced through the other doors as well. I haven't had one of my "regrettable incidents" (confronations with strangers involving cursing, spitting and all kinds of other embarassing outputs!)in well over a year now. MY performance at work is skyrocketing - recently I was rated the 3rd highest out of 140 teachers in the Tokyo district. I used to practice "metta" meditation towards students that caused aversion, but still ended up struggling with them and badmouthing them to co-workers. Now I understand that in fact neither I nor the students exist in reality, it is all nama and rupa and whatever happens through the sense doors is viapaka, a result of kamma. Voila. There is nothing to get angry about anymore, and judging from the results mentioned above, I am taking better care of the students that before. I could go on and on. Again, it's about Dhamma, not Acharn Sujin, but she does explain things clearly and brings us back again and again to what the Buddha defined as the point of the holy life - understanding paramattha dhammas such as the eye, seeing and visible object, the ear sense, hearing and sound etc...it is always there to be studied whatever and wherever we are doing. Modern Buddhist tend to forget that by designating special times to "practice" - not the Buddha's teaching. > 4. What has been your involvement with the dhamma foundation? Consuming recorded talks and books with paying a penny! (shame shame...) I haven't been to the foundation in Bkk but will be going next January. > 5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with > your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. Well, I guess I got at that above. The misguided metta meditation I used to do to try to escape aversion. The studying of suttas with the mistaken belief that I was therby gaining access to the Buddha's understanding. Acharn Sujin helps us to understand that that is lobha and ignorance. We are where we are, which is far, far, far from the understanding of the noble ones. So we relax and take small but real steps in moments of seeing that is understood to the degree that we are capable, hearing that is understood, thinking that is understood. I hope that helps. Phil 57607 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Clinging to sanna of postures, phil philofillet Hi Nina, Sarah and all > > > > > I heard an interesting thing about a term that in Thai sounded > > > like "Perk Iliyabot" It is about how clinging to sanna of postures > > > interferes in some way with awareness of dhammas. > > ------ > > N: Iriyapada: posture. It must be pidbang, hide. Iriyapada pidbang > > dukkha. > > See Vis. Ch XXI, 3, about shifting postures when there is pain. > <...> > S: I also hear her often talking about 'poek' (or 'perk') iriyabot (for > iriyapada). I've asked about the 'poek' before and I think I was told > 'moving' or `changing?Epostures. By adopting different postures and > thinking that in reality there is sitting, standing and so on, the > understanding of the rising and falling of realities is hidden. Sanna of > course plays a big role in all of this, remembering the various postures. Ph: Very interesting this. If we think (emphasize on "think", for it is just thinking) "I am walking and know that I am walking - there is satipatthana" and think that by doing this as constantly as possible in daily life we are developing satipatthana we are being led by lobha and moha down a pleasant path. We must get at the paramattha dhammas, to the degree that we are capable, to the degree that conditions permit, which is not much now, and that's fine. We *cannot* have sati by trying to have it. You'd think that would be so obvious there would be no need to debate it, but apparently not. Phil 57608 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 6:00am Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) indriyabala Hi James (and all) - Thank you for your extensive post that touches on several important issues. I have just two questions for now, perhaps more later. >James: >The false sense of self comes much farther down in the links of causation and is caused by clinging. So, in other words, the KS philosophy states that the false sense of self causes clinging, when it is actually clinging which causes the false sense of self. Tep: Clinging (upadana) is fourfold: 1. sense-desire or clinging to the five sense-objects; 2. clinging to false views that do not include rituals and self; 3. clinging to rites and ceremonies; 4. clinging to self(atta) -- it is the same as the 20 personality views (sakkaaya-ditthi). So it seems that clinging can be identical to wrong views as seen in the fourth case. In the second case the objects of clinging are false views. In the first case visible objects, sounds, aromas, tactle contacts, and mind-objects are the objects of clinging. Question 1: Is it true really that clinging "causes the false sense of self"? Look, the fourth kind of clinging is a clinging to self, which implies that the belief in atta (atta-ditthi) comes first. You quoted a note to AN V, 16 : "Although in popular accounts ignorance is often identified with the idea of self, the definitions here show that the view of self is an aspect of clinging, which is itself conditioned by craving, while the latter is in turn conditioned by ignorance ." Question 2: Do you think that this "note" is correct, given the definition of the four kinds of clinging above? http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/upaadaana.htm Warm regards, Tep, your friend. =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Nina, Tep, Andrew, Kom, and everyone, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep, James & all, > > > > > It seems to me that the idea of self and clinging to self are so > deeply > > rooted that when wholesome states such as sati don't arise very > often, > > there is bound to be attachment and other kilesa (defilements) > following > > them instantly when they do arise. That's why right understanding > has to > > develop and know all these different states for what they are, > anatta and > > uncontrollable. > > > > I have a lot of threads going on this one subject and I can't > possibly respond to them all, nor would that be very productive. > So, I am going to respond within this post by Sarah because it seems > to summarize the position of the KS camp (for lack of a better > term). Unfortunately, this post is going to be somewhat long (but > hopefully worth the read). > (snipped ) 57609 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 6:10am Subject: Re: Marisa's questions. .. Learning from one teacher only ... indriyabala Hi, Nina - The last question by Marisa is interesting. The implication from your answer is even more interesting. > M: > 5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. > N: Never studied elsewhere. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > I also answer Marisa's questions : > > QUESTIONS: > > 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? > > N: More than forty years ago. > > > 2. How did you find out about her? (snipped) 57610 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Robert, KenH, and, well, you know who you are (LOL!) - In a message dated 4/7/06 9:20:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Nina, > > I have a bit more time to give to your kind response. I appreciate > the effort you put into this reply (and all the others). > > "Samaadhi, concentration arises with each citta, it may be kusala, > akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Its function is focussing on one object. > Right concentration of the eightfold Path develops together with right > understanding of the eightfold Path and, when the Path is still > mundane, it focusses on a nama or rupa, on one object at a time. We do > not have to try to focus, as right understanding develops also right > concentration, right effort, and the other factors perform their > functions already." > > I stopped here as I read the text. I've been, along with the others > here, contemplating the deep teachings related to the belief in > control (self) and how this is wrong view. Here, when you say "we do > not have to try to focus," I know this is correct. ========================== Here's the bottom line, it seems to me: Scott, you quote "Right concentration of the eightfold Path develops together with right understanding of the eightfold Path and, when the Path is still mundane, it focusses on a nama or rupa, on one object at a time. We do not have to try to focus, as right understanding develops also right concentration, right effort, and the other factors perform their functions already." This developing of even mundane right concentration doesn't happen for all folks who have "right [mundane] understanding of the eightfold Path," does it? The world over, there are people who deeply and intensively study the Buddhadhamma. How many such folks develop path factors, even at a primitive, mundane level, by study alone? And why should they? Is that the practice that the Buddha gave: "Merely study my words"? Now, it seems that this quoted material gives one condition only for right concentration, namely right understanding. Is that so? A single causal condition? And what is it that leads to right understanding. Is nothing but listening to reports of the "truth" needed? Where did the Buddha say that? Where did he teach that his Dhamma is a species of what we call jnana yoga in the stepped-down sense of repeatedly contemplating true teachings? And if that was his assertion, why did he teach for 45 years about guarding the senses and restricting one's behavior, cultivating jhana, and carefully attending to whatever arises from a stable base of internal silence and calm? From time to time I have said that some folks here present Dhamma practice as a "one-trick pony," and that still seems to be the case to me. Why is this so? Is it that study and contemplation is so enjoyable and relatively easy for intellectual "types" that is grasped at as *the* way? The suttas, it seems to me, clearly present many essential activities to engage in and many to refrain from engaging in as constituting the practice. The task of doing all that needs to be done can be quite daunting, I agree. But it makes no sense to me to ignore so much of what the Buddha repeatedly urged upon his followers. Studying the Dhamma is an essential element of the practice. It is a planting of vital seeds. But the seeds won't bear proper fruit unless the field is properly tilled and cultivated. We can contemplate the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada deeply and repeatedly, but if those seeds are planted on rock and not in fertile, cultivated soil, to paraphrase a teaching of an old-time Hebrew, they will not bear fruit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57611 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >Thank you, Jon. I hope that I can actually experience some sort of >realisation in relation to bhavana. Is "wanting to know" a problem? > > Well it's safe to say that "wanting to know" is or involves attachment of one form or another. Indeed, as I understand it, purely kusala motivates are just not possible, for the reason that there is for each of us a huge base of accumulated latent defilements, including deeply ingrained ideas of 'self' and views about the way things are. Is that a "problem"? Not in the way we might think it is. There is no sense in wishing things were other than the way they are. And presently arising akusala consciousness can be the object of insight just as much as any other dhamma can (although the latent tendencies cannot). To my understanding, the only real "problem" is the lack of developed insight, meaning insight into the true nature of presently arising dhammas. The more there is of that, the less we are in the sway of the latent tendencies, because it is by the development of insight that the various factors spoken of in the texts come to be of sufficient strength (as 'faculties', 'powers' etc ) to 'counter' the latent tendencies, including the panna that will eventually eradicate them. >I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to >practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I >have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct >teachings. > I appreciate what you are saying here, but I would just say that we cannot hasten the process, and any wish to do so is likely to lead us into wrong practice of some form or another. The development of insight can only happen very gradually. Progress is almost invisible to us, and cannot be measured in terms of days, weeks or even months (the adze-handle simile). We are not at the stage of development of those in the time of the Buddha who were ready for enlightenment. Some people find this all very discouraging, and they consider the idea that there is nothing in the way of a formal 'practice to be done' as a position of helplessness and hopelessnesss. Of course, I do not see it that way at all. Jon 57612 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. nilovg Dear Scott, op 08-04-2006 03:20 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: N: When nibbaana is experienced, the concentration has become of > the degree of the first jhaana, also in the case of those who have not > developed mundane jhaana with the kasinas etc." ---------- Scott: I think here of a question: Is the moment pa.n.na arises > instantaneous? ------- N: Paññaa arises and falls away with the kusala citta it accompanies. Does this answer your question? -------- S: If so (I think it is), does one experience its nimitta > later in the form of thoughts about that which was experienced with > pa.n.na? Is it true that many things can change, when it comes to > things like the "experience of nibbaana," but in an instant? -------- N: Do you refer to nimitta of nibbaana? This is animittaa, without any nimitta. But it is difficult to understand what it means. I do not quite get your question. There is reviewing paññaa after the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana have fallen away. -------- S: Is there > a nimitta associated with this? Like a "dream" about it but in the > form of memories or some other illusively self-like phenomenon? --------- N: Not in the case of lokuttara cittas. You are probably thinking of the jhaanacitta that experiences with absorption a nimitta, the meditation subject. But the right concentration of the eightfold Path has the strength of jhaana, but its object is nibbaana, not a nimitta, thus it has a different object. I am not sure whether I answered your question. Nina. 57613 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin nilovg Hi Phil I really appreciate your answer to Marisa. Nina. op 08-04-2006 12:47 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > Also, it seems to me that she > really has accumulated a penetrative kind of insight into dhammas that > exceeds anyone else I have come across, by far. This is not about being > able to quote suttas at length (which I'm sure she can - that is not > insight) but something that I can't quite put my finger on. But the > more I listen and read, the more I appreciate her - the more I > appreciate Dhamma. 57614 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 8:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I very much enjoy the chance to correspond with you! Thank you very much. N: Paññaa arises and falls away with the kusala citta it accompanies. Does this answer your question? Yes. N: Do you refer to nimitta of nibbaana? This is animittaa, without any nimitta. But it is difficult to understand what it means. I do not quite get your question. There is reviewing paññaa after the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana have fallen away. I'm sorry to have been unclear. I'm trying to understand the broader application of the term "nimitta" as expounded by A. Sujin when she referred to everything we "experience" as nimitta because the reality has arisen and fallen away already. I was thinking, as you help me to clarify, of what you have referred to above as "reviewing pa.n.na after the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana have fallen away." I'm assuming that these lokuttara cittas which experience nibbaana do so with the rapidity that is their nature and so the traces of this experience which are there to be caught up with by the subsequent cittas and cetasikas. I was wondering whether the "memory" of the experience is "nimitta." What is "reviewing pa.n.na?" N: Not in the case of lokuttara cittas. What is the case as far as lokuttara citta goes? Is there an experience associated with the arising and falling away of this citta? N: You are probably thinking of the jhaanacitta that experiences with absorption a nimitta, the meditation subject. But the right concentration of the eightfold Path has the strength of jhaana, but its object is nibbaana, not a nimitta, thus it has a different object. I wasn't thinking of jhaanacitta in the sense you note. I think rather I was struggling to understand right concentration. What does it mean, exactly, to say the "object is nibbaana?" Enough questions for now. Thanks for your kind consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 57615 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 8:39am Subject: Special thanks to Nina and Sarah buddhatrue Hi Nina and Sarah, I wanted to write a special post to you both because of your touching posts to me. I am so glad that you both understood my message, and understood the special stresses I am presently going through. Honestly, I feel awkward discussing this issue in this group, because this group is so moderated and so formal, but I don't know a way to express myself otherwise. I hope that those unaccustomed to such posts will forgive me. Today is the day that the dalmatian puppy, named Milo, went to a new home. Thanks Nina for your kind suggestion that I get a smaller dog, like a terrier, but I can't really have any kind of dog right now. My living situation is temporary. Anyway, though I am glad that Milo is going to a new home (and one much better suited to his personality- big yard, many people around, and a Saint Bernard for company) I am still sad to see him go. I love animals and I developed some love for that crazy dog while he was here! Though he tore up my apartment, left piles and puddles here and there, and made my cat a nervous wreck, I still grew to love him. He was just himself- it wasn't his fault that he was unsuited for my lifestyle. Should the blame for this fiasco fall on Amr? Amr came across this dog through a neighborhood friend. Through the friend, Amr found that Milo was literally living in a car- staying on the streets during the day and sleeping in the trunk of a car at night. The owner of the dog wasn't allowed to bring him into the house because Islam has strict prohibitions against dogs (devout Muslims are not allowed to touch a dog because they are deemed "unclean"). Amr felt such sorrow and pity for the dog that he wanted to save him; and when I heard of he dog's situation I was convinced to save him also. Unfortunately, I and Amr were ill suited for that task. Now, Milo has gone to a new home; a better home. But that fact doesn't ease our pain. I grew to love Milo and so did Amr. As Tep recently posted, love is an attachment that always ends in sorrow. He is so very correct!! But regardless of the guaranteed sorrow involved, we couldn't help but fall in love with him. (There is a deeper dhamma lesson here, but I am not emotionally prepared to see it right now- maybe later.) Amr and I are going to stay away from each other for a while until we recover from this loss. There is so much pain and sorrow associated with a loss like this- again, this is an important dhamma lesson. There are even more factors involved but I think I will leave the tale at that. Anyway, thanks again to you Sarah and Nina for expressing your compassion to me. It meant so much to me- more than I can express. Metta, James 57616 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 8:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thank you very much for your continued correspondence. "To my understanding, the only real "problem" is the lack of developed insight, meaning insight into the true nature of presently arising dhammas. The more there is of that, the less we are in the sway of the latent tendencies, because it is by the development of insight that the various factors spoken of in the texts come to be of sufficient strength (as 'faculties', 'powers' etc ) to 'counter' the latent tendencies, including the panna that will eventually eradicate them." Yes, this is right. > [S: I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct teachings.] "I appreciate what you are saying here, but I would just say that we cannot hasten the process, and any wish to do so is likely to lead us into wrong practice of some form or another." That is what I was wanting to say. My interest is in learning not debating. I feel that I have an attachment to the concept of meditation and that this is of the sort that a chick gets to its mother - a sort of imprinting caused by the various things I've read or heard (right and wrong) within the buddhist spectrum to date. I don't want to debate because that might reinforce clinging, (although the proof of clining is the wish to debate, to preserve "my" meditation). I'd rather sort out this thing and do things right. Life's too short. "The development of insight can only happen very gradually. Progress is almost invisible to us, and cannot be measured in terms of days, weeks or even months (the adze-handle simile). We are not at the stage of development of those in the time of the Buddha who were ready for enlightenment. Some people find this all very discouraging, and they consider the idea that there is nothing in the way of a formal 'practice to be done' as a position of helplessness and hopelessnesss. Of course, I do not see it that way at all." I did notice, as I ponder this whole idea that I am learning in this company of friends in the Dhamma, that certain moments of dismay or alarm arise. These are not in any way related to the overall rightness of things. I just don't think its right to cling to something. I'm sure I don't have right understanding of meditation, for sure not enough of one to be able to rise to its defense. Deep Dhamma seems shocking, hard, difficult, and paradoxically almost aversive when first encountered. I am in your company as part of a slow progression of events over which, I must say, I have no control. I want to be teachable and open to learn. I want to learn the deep Dhamma because of where it leads. Thanks again, Jon, for your kind consideration. Sincerely, Scott. 57617 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 9:11am Subject: Re: Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin buddhatrue Hi Phil and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Marisa (and Tom) > > > 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? > > Well, I began listening to the recorded talks about a year and a half > ago, I guess. I began reading Nina's books about two years ago. > > > 2. How did you find out about her? > > Here at DSG - well, technically speaking, first at an American site > called "Beliefnet" where someone mentionned Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily > Life." Who is this Marisa and why is she asking these questions? I missed the beginning of this thread, but I feel like I have somehow been trapped into an extended commercial about KS. What is the point of this?? First, Phil, I am so glad for you that you have been ranked third out of 140 teachers in Tokyo! Congratulations! But, you seem to credit this ranking to your newfound knowledge based on the teachings of KS; could it be based on other factors? What about the others who ranked number one and number two ahead of you, are they Buddhist? Do they follow KS? Think about it- does your ranking have anything whatsoever to do with KS? How about looking at your wife and how she keeps you on track? Credit should go where credit is due. Second, Nina, I found your testimonial to be very heart-felt and genuine. However, the one thing I was concerned about is that you have NEVER studied the teachings of other dhamma teachers. Sorry, but that is very scary! You may think that it means you had the panna to see KS as the true teacher, but I see it as meaning that you were too quick to judge. After all, the Buddha went to many teachers and found them all lacking- then he found the truth on his own. If you had said that you had studied many teachers but found KS to be the best, I would be more willing to accept your testimonial. But when you say that KS has been your first and only teacher for 40 years, I question the logic and sense of that. Metta, James 57618 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 9:25am Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi James (and all) - > > Thank you for your extensive post that touches on several important > issues. I have just two questions for now, perhaps more later. I'm sorry Tep but I can't understand your questions. I read your post a few times and I still couldn't understand. Could you rephrase your questions and keep in mind simplicity and directness? Remember, I can't follow your train of thought unless you leave a good map. Thanks. Metta, James 57619 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 10:55am Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) indriyabala Hi, James - Okay, no problem. A train of thought ------------------- You claimed that it was actually clinging(upadana) that caused the false sense of self. The fourth kind of upadana is the clinging to self(atta) -- it is the same as the 20 personality views(sakkaaya-ditthi). Now, think about that for a moment. Clinging to self means that first there must be a belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows. Also, this case implies that clinging can be identical to wrong views, i.e. here "clinging to self " is identical to personality views (sakkaaya-ditthi). Once you have my train of thought, here is the question : Question 1. Is it true really that clinging "causes the false sense of self "? .................. Question 2 is straightforward. However, if you still think that it is not possible to follow my train of thought, then we are going to get off the bad train and get a bus somewhere else! {:>) Warm regards, Tep, your friend. =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" > wrote: > > > I'm sorry Tep but I can't understand your questions. I read your post > a few times and I still couldn't understand. Could you rephrase your > questions and keep in mind simplicity and directness? Remember, I > can't follow your train of thought unless you leave a good map. > Thanks. 57620 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Special thanks to Nina and Sarah nilovg Hi James, thank you for your letter which touched me. I have a weak spot for dogs so I can feel with you. You had great compassion to take him in anyway. I had to laugh about the Saint Bernard as company. Issues like this are very suitable for dsg, it is all about Dhamma. Yes, any situation of life gives us many Dhamma lessons. We learn them from the suttas: separation brings sorrow. I am sure the Dhamma can help you in the time that just now lies ahead of you. warmest wishes, Nina. op 08-04-2006 17:39 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Hi Nina and Sarah, > > I wanted to write a special post to you both because of your > touching posts to me. I am so glad that you both understood my > message, and understood the special stresses I am presently going > through. 57621 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) nilovg Dear Scott, you expressed your answer to Jon in a beautiful and sincere way, I think. I remember when I lived in Thailand that a bhikkhu said to Kh. Sujin and me: the truth is bitter and people do not like it. Nina. op 08-04-2006 17:44 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: > Deep Dhamma seems shocking, hard, difficult, and paradoxically almost > aversive when first encountered. I am in your company as part of a > slow progression of events over which, I must say, I have no control. > I want to be teachable and open to learn. I want to learn the deep > Dhamma because of where it leads. 57622 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin nilovg Hi James, Marisa asked for help for her thesis about the role of women in Buddhism, and she wanted to interview Kh. Sujin. I quoted Betty's letter about this.Kh sujin said: she has no role. As to her being my teacher for more than forty years, no it is not like that. We have different ideas about teachers. Kh Sujin pointed the way and then: do it yourself, develop your own understanding. She does not want to be called a teacher though people call her acharn out of respect. She always says: the Dhamma is your teacher, and this is what the Buddha told us: after his parinibbaana the Dhammavinaya is our teacher. Very right! So I kept on studying and writing all these years which I find is a way of studying, you have to consider texts and check what you read. People asked me questions by letter from different parts of the world. When I answered questions: people thanked me, but I have to thank the questioners, they are helping me in their turn. Greatly helping me, although they do not know this. Then, not to forget, I have Lodewijk at my side and we discuss Dhamma, talk about difficult points. So, that is my life. I do not keep running to Kh Sujin, and also in the past we visited her and were greatful of her help, but she did not develop understanding for us, we have to do it ourselves. When she feels that people are clinging to her, she keeps a certain distance, her personality is such that she does not invite clinging. You can find out if you would meet her. She does not want to be a teacher that is followed by people. I hope I clarified a few things. Nina. op 08-04-2006 18:11 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Second, Nina, I found your testimonial to be very heart-felt and > genuine. However, the one thing I was concerned about is that you > have NEVER studied the teachings of other dhamma teachers. 57623 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 1:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. jwromeijn Hallo Nina Because for some reasons you have no animo or no time to respond to this message #57516 of me, I have three other questions: - don't you think the Buddha sasana exists of a mixture of a core, being of all times (ultimate), and a external part, a conceptual language necessary to express this core? - don't you think that anything of the Buddha sasana can be interpreted on different ways, for example a more literal way OR a more metaphorical way ? - don't you think this interpretation had to change when people try to understand and realize the Buddha sasana but live in another time and another culture? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > > Hallo Joop, > > ... > > In the Co. sometimes names are given to make things clear, but > > the Buddha sasana is not changed. > > ------ > > Nina. > > > Hallo Nina > > It's clear that I can not convince you that compared by the > Teachings of the BuddhaTheravada is changed (a little bit, > not the core) by commentaries. > And I hope it's clear to you too that you have not convinced > me that the commentaries did not change anything, only explain. > > First about the decline of Buddha Sasana in 500 or 5000 years. > "³The words vassasahassaÿ, thousand years, that are used here, > refer only to > the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges …" > Nina: " I made a footnote: All arahats have eradicated defilements > completely, but > Arahats have different degrees of excellent qualities. Only the > arahat with > the highest attainment has the four analytical knowledges. > N: Thus, the Co. gives more details and explanations, but it does > not change the teachings. > The dispensation still lasts, and it is longer than 500 > years, we can notice that. Thus, an explanation of the sutta was > not superfluous." > > Joop: In fact you added a fourth example of my statement: as > far as I know there is nowhere in the Suttas talked about different kind of > arahats as you footnoted. I think lovers of hierarchy have > added this idea. > And how you can say that changing 500 years in 5000 years is only > giving more details and explanations? > Yes, the dispensation still lasts, so either the prophecy of 500 > years was wrong or it was not a prophecy at all. Because the Buddha > can not be wrong is must the the second possibility! Perhaps the > Buddha did not make that prophecy at all but monks who are afraid > of woman. > > > The second example about the so called 'heart-base' (haddaya-vatthu) > N: In the Patthana of the Abhidhamma the Buddha said: 'that ruupa' > denoting > the physical base for all cittas except the five pairs of sense- > cognitions. > The Co. gave a name to this ruupa: heartbase. It is a question of > naming, not adding another ruupa. > > Joop: That commentary not just gave it a name; he also decided that > is was not one of the rupas already mentioned in the Dhammasangani; > he also decided that the base was the heart. Why not the knee or > the brains? Did the Buddha already say the base is the heart? > I don't think so. > > > Again, my problem is not that commentaries in their interpretations > added and changed a little bit the Teachings to Theravada. I'm glad > that there is dynamics in Dhamma, Dhamma is not damaged by dynamics. > > Metta > > Joop > 57624 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 2:06pm Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) buddhatrue Hi Tep, Okay, I understand your questions better. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > Hi, James - > > Okay, no problem. > > A train of thought > ------------------- > > You claimed that it was actually clinging(upadana) that caused the > false sense of self. > > The fourth kind of upadana is the clinging to self(atta) -- it is the > same as the 20 personality views(sakkaaya-ditthi). Now, think about > that for a moment. Clinging to self means that first there must be a > belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows. James: No, clinging is what causes the belief in self: clinging to existence and clinging to non-existence. This clinging results from craving and craving results from feelings. If one removes clinging and craving, the clinging to a false belief in self will disappear. Tep, where do you believe the belief in self comes from if you believe it doesn't come from clinging? After all, it isn't something we are taught in school or are taught by others- we have a false sense of a permanent self because we cling to existence (or non-existence), we cling to existence because we crave/desire the objects of the six senses (including the mind), we crave/desire these objects of the senses because they produce pleasant feelings (existence) and unpleasant feelings (non-existence) and neutral feelings (ignorance). Am I making myself clear? I know that this is a complicated issue. I just did a google search and came across this explanation; perhaps it is a better explanation: "You may recall that in the context of the Four Noble Truths, we have said that ignorance, desire and ill-will are the causes of suffering. If we look here at the three components of dependent origination that are included in the group of defilements, we will find ignorance, craving and clinging. Here too, ignorance is the most basic. It is because of ignorance that we crave for pleasures of the senses, for existence and for non-existence. Similarly, it is because of ignorance that we cling to pleasures of the senses, to pleasant experiences, to ideas and, perhaps most significantly, to the idea of an independent, permanent self. This ignorance - craving and clinging - is the cause of actions." http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm Tep, you might want to do some independent study of dependent origination until it becomes more clear. The Buddha told Ananda that dependent origination was very profound and difficult to understand. Personally, I have spent hours studying dependent origination in order to get just a basic understanding. Also, this case > implies that clinging can be identical to wrong views, i.e. here > "clinging to self " is identical to personality views (sakkaaya- ditthi). > > Once you have my train of thought, here is the question : > Question 1. Is it true really that clinging "causes the false sense of > self "? James: Yes- clinging to the five aggregates causes a false sense of self. > > .................. > > Question 2 is straightforward. James: I believe that question 2 was about my quote and do I believe in the quote in light of your question one. Yes, I still believe in the quote: the ignorance of dependent origination is caused by ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, not a false sense of self. > > However, if you still think that it is not possible to follow my train > of thought, then we are going to get off the bad train and get a bus > somewhere else! {:>) James: I hope I understood your train of thought better this time. If not, don't hesitate to ask more. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep, > your friend. > =============== Metta, James your friend also 57625 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 3:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four / to Larry ken_aitch Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay: I hope you haven't forgotten what we were talking about. Are the ideas you express (below and in your previous message) consistent with - or are they contrary to - the Dhamma as found in the Theravada texts? Ken H > > > Ken H: <. . .> I don't know > if you are expressing your understanding of the Theravada texts, or if > you are putting forward a theory of your own. <. . .> > > > Hi Ken, > > All views are my own. Regarding my position on meditation, no one who > practices insight meditation has any expectation of having an insight. > Someone might begin with expectations but the process quickly squelches > all hope. It's just something you do, like making breakfast. Self view > continues until it ceases but even so the formalities of meditation (the > posture and procedures) are conducive to wholesome consciousnesses. This > is the cultivation of virtue (sila). Study and contemplation are very > helpful in understanding one's experience but true insight just happens, > like everything else. > > Larry > 57626 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 3:41pm Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) indriyabala Dear James (and Nina)- I would appreciate Nina's opinion very much. Who is wrong? {:>) > > Tep: The fourth kind of upadana is the clinging to self(atta)-- > > it is the same as the 20 personality views(sakkaaya-ditthi). > >Now, think about that for a moment. Clinging to self means that > > first there must be a belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows. >James( in # 57624): No, clinging is what causes the belief in self: clinging to existence and clinging to non-existence. This clinging results from craving and craving results from feelings. Tep: You might have mistaken clinging for craving ! There are three kinds of craving(tanha) : "And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. [DN 22] Therefore, the craving for becoming is the craving to existence, and the craving for non-becoming is the craving to non-existence. Indeed, the Buddha taught in AN IV.199, Tahna Sutta, that wrong views(ditthi) on atta (self) are the cause of tanha(craving). With craving then there is clinging, according to Dependent Origination. So, clinging follows the craving that follows wrong views abot self. Please read the following passages from AN IV.199: The Blessed One said: "And which craving is the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations? These 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. "And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal. "And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. [endquote] ................... So, I remain convinced that "Clinging to self means that first there must be a belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows." Warm and kind regards, Tep, your pal. ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Okay, I understand your questions better. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" > wrote: > > > > Hi, James - > > > > Okay, no problem. > > > > A train of thought > > ------------------- > > > > You claimed that it was actually clinging(upadana) that caused the > > false sense of self. > > > > The fourth kind of upadana is the clinging to self(atta) -- it is > the > > same as the 20 personality views(sakkaaya-ditthi). Now, think about > > that for a moment. Clinging to self means that first there must be > a > > belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows. > > James: No, clinging is what causes the belief in self: clinging to > existence and clinging to non-existence. This clinging results from > craving and craving results from feelings. If one removes clinging > and craving, the clinging to a false belief in self will disappear. > Tep, where do you believe the belief in self comes from if you > believe it doesn't come from clinging? After all, it isn't > something we are taught in school or are taught by others- we have a > false sense of a permanent self because we cling to existence (or > non-existence), we cling to existence because we crave/desire the > objects of the six senses (including the mind), we crave/desire > these objects of the senses because they produce pleasant feelings > (existence) and unpleasant feelings (non-existence) and neutral > feelings (ignorance). Am I making myself clear? I know that this > is a complicated issue. I just did a google search and came across > this explanation; perhaps it is a better explanation: > (snipped) 57627 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four / to Larry lbidd2 Ken H: "Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay: I hope you haven't forgotten what we were talking about. Are the ideas you express (below and in your previous message) consistent with - or are they contrary to - the Dhamma as found in the Theravada texts?" Hi Ken, Actually, I have forgotten. Some of what I said is my interpretation of my experience and some of what I said is my interpretation of what I have read. The rest is just nonsense ;-)) I assume you mean, are these ideas consistent with reality? Probably not. They are just a view, an opinion, something to cling to. Larry 57628 From: connie Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 5:18pm Subject: Re: handering ... mind nichiconn dear tep, lol... ask me to recite the alphabet! i cannot. but i know a good horse takes a loose rein. anyway, here's as far as i'd gotten on my search for Discipline when i got your msg... (m.) sikkhaa; dama (m). taming; subjugation; restraint; mastery. niggaha; censure, blame, reproach sikkhaa (f). study, discipline (v.t.) vineti; sikkheti; dameti. (pp.)vin´ta; sikkhita; damita or danta. peace, c. 57629 From: "sukinder" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 6:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin sukinderpal Dear Marisa and Tom, I give a characteristically long response. I think that you will be receiving many responses from others; therefore you may not need to use mine. If you want however a shorter version, I will try to write another one when I come back from my holiday next week. _________________________________ Q.1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? A.1. November 2000. ---------------------------------------------------------- Q.2. How did you find out about her? A.2. Through Robert Kirkpatrick whom I met at a Buddhist discussion list. I was at that time looking for what is called kalyanamitta (the wise friend) with whom to associate and who might amongst other things, inspire me to persist with my then newly formed 'meditation routine'. I happened also to be looking for a place to study Abhidhamma and Pali, so Robert turned out to be the right person to come across. For he then directed me to K. Sujin and also to the Dhamma Study Group, a discussion group at Yahoo Groups. ----------------------------------------------------------- Q.3. What about her teachings attracted you? A.3. At the time I first approached K. Sujin, my knowledge and understanding of the Buddha's Teachings was quite blurry. I even commented to Robert, an unwillingness to believe that other traditions, some of which I had studied and still interested in, including Tibetan and Zen Dharma, were wrong. He, as characteristic of him and many other students of K. Sujin, did not try to convince me that I was wrong, but encouraged me instead to find out on my own. So when I met K. Sujin in person and listened to her, being dense and with all those preconceptions about other traditions, it took me quite a while to really appreciate her words. However, some of what she said did make good sense and because she came across as being a person full of metta (loving kindness), I was attracted enough to return. And since then, unless something more immediately important comes up, I never miss any of the English discussions held at the Foundation, this being the best time of the week for me. :-) Prior to meeting K. Sujin, I had been a vegetarian for about 7 months, with the idea that this was related to the development of purity. But one day I heard on tape a talk by her about the fact that the Buddha in his stress on the development of "Right Understanding" or Samma ditthi , never bothered with such issues. I felt if a burden had been lifted off my chest and went back to being a non-vegetarian. ;-) And since then I began to appreciate more and more this fact about the need to question and correct one's understanding. It has helped sort out many "Wrong Understandings" or Miccha ditthi which was, and still to some extent is, a part of my mental make-up. Each of these when it has become the object of any degree of awareness and understanding, have similarly been seen through and discarded. The world has become much lighter, being in fact this one moment of arising and falling away instance of consciousness. Conventionally speaking, we come to understand better who we are and because of this, there is recognizing more and more those ever misleading 'ideals' and 'ambitions'. These being in reality rooted in 'ignorance' of our present level of understanding and the yet infinite supply of inherent defilements, and the 'desire' for results projected as a consequence. We are therefore freed of wrong expectations and begin in fact to have a better foothold of where to start from and move ahead. And this may be very little and slight, unlike the projections previously made, but nevertheless conditions a level of confidence which is directed at becoming more and more detached. And isn't this the goal of the Buddha's Teachings? ------------------------------------------ Q.4. What has been your involvement with the dhamma foundation? A.4. Except for the little contribution made in printing one of her books, I have only been receiving all the best that the Foundation provides. Including being the place where many 'wise friends' meet on several occasions for discussions with K. Sujin, I have also acquired a few dhamma books distributed for free and audio discussions sold at minimal prices and sometimes even freely given. Recently I was asked by K. Sujin to do a 15 minute interview for TV as part of weekly dhamma program in which K. Sujin's talks are broadcasted (a recent development). I agreed only because K. Sujin asked me and I thought also it as part of my contribution to the Foundation, otherwise I am very camera conscious and would never agree to be shot for any TV program. When the interview was done however, I felt that I did not do a good job, so I guess I still need to work at contributing some to the foundation. There is one thing though, for some time I have had a plan to initiate the publication of Nina's translation of K. Sujin's book on the Perfections. I hope this can happen soon. -------------------------------------------------- Q.5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. A.5. Had been studying other traditions of Buddhism for a few years until December 1999, when I decided on taking a meditation practice seriously. This idea had been influenced by the general notion amongst Buddhists and non-Buddhists, that a meditation practice is an integral part of one's journey towards understanding the Buddha's Teachings. And a couple of months later I discovered a certain well-known tradition, teaching a particular form of meditation in the name of 'vipassana' and which had centers all over the world giving 10 day and more, retreats. I signed up for one of these retreats in April and another one in August the same year. My ambition was aroused to do at least one or two such retreats every year and I even planned to encourage my children to meditate from young. However just four months after my August retreat, after being introduced to K. Sujin and the Dhamma Study Group, one day while I had just begun to sit for meditation, I realized to some extent, the lobha (desire) involved in this. From that day, this "burden" was dropped, i.e. I stopped meditating. So yes, K. Sujin's teachings, or rather her interpretation of the Buddha's Teachings, is vastly different from most if not all other Buddhist teachers of today. Quite uniquely she teaches about the undeniably real and profound relationship between pariyatti (understanding of Dhamma at the intellectual level), patipatti (the actual practice) and pativedha (the penetration and realization of the Truth). No other teacher understands this with the penetrating insight and understanding that she has and therefore end up being in one or more ways wrong about the Teachings. And the consequence of this is not little, people go badly wrong. I have to say that I "understand" in just a short time, much to correct any misunderstanding previously accumulated. And that had I not met K. Sujin, I would have ended up with a completely wrong understanding of the Buddha's Teachings. --------------------------------------------- Hope the above has helped. Metta, Sukinderpal 57630 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 1:10am Subject: The 108 Feelings ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Classification of Feeling produces unique Understanding!!! The Blessed Buddha once said: What, bhikkhus, are the 2 kinds of feelings? Bodily feeling and mental feeling. These are the 2 kinds of feelings... What are the 3 kinds of feelings? Pleasant feeling, painful feeling, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These are the 3 kinds of feelings... What are the 5 kinds of feelings? The ability to feel pleasure, pain, gladness, sadness and equanimity. These are the 5 kinds of feelings... What are the 6 kinds of feelings? Feeling produced by eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue- contact, body-contact, and feeling emerged from mental-contact. These are the 6 kinds of feelings... What are the 18 kinds of feelings? Such 6 sense-evaluations producing gladness, 6 sense-evaluations producing sadness, and 6 sense-evaluations producing equanimity. These are the 18 kinds of feelings... What are the 36 kinds of feelings? Six types of household life gladness, 6 types of Noble Life gladness, 6 types of household life sadness, 6 types of Noble Life sadness, 6 types of household life equanimity, 6 types of Noble Life equanimity. These are the 36 kinds of feelings... What are the 108 kinds of feelings? The above 36 feelings here and now in the present, those 36 feelings in the future, and the above 36 feelings in the gone by past. These are the 108 kinds of feelings... This, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma explanation of the 108 feelings. Comment: Whenever feeling, then classify this feeling into one or more of these groups... Further classification of feeling does neither seem necessary nor practical... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [231-2] section 36: On Feeling: Vedana. The 108... 22. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57631 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. nilovg Hallo Joop, Animo yes, but the amount of mails get too much. I kept your message in a file, please bear with me.I looked for a sutta and found it. I also have to work hard on the tiika Visuddhimagga, and sometimes I go ouy and walk! Nina. op 08-04-2006 22:22 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > Because for some reasons you have no animo or no time to respond to > this message #57516 of me, I have three other questions: 57632 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 5:54am Subject: Re: handering ... mind indriyabala Dear Connie - I am thankful for the following search result. sikkhaa; dama (m). taming; subjugation; restraint; mastery. niggaha; censure, blame, reproach sikkhaa (f). study, discipline (v.t.) vineti; sikkheti; dameti. (pp.) vin´ta; sikkhita; damita or danta. Tep: I find 'control' as a meaning of 'niggaha' {Niggaha 1. restraint, control.. PTS Dictionary} I also find 'self control' as a meaning of 'dama' {Dama taming, subduing; self control, self command, ...} I find 'train oneself' as a meaning of sikkhati {Sikkhati .. see sakkoti. -- The Dhtp (12) gives "vijj' opaadaana" as meaning 1. to learn, to train oneself ...} Most of all I have learnt from you to be brief and selective. If everyone here is like you, I would have no difficulty reading all daily posted messages! (But some may be unhappy because his/her messages are not fully answered.) >Connie: >but i know a good horse takes a loose rein. I love that even though I do not fully understand it ! Thank you for everything ... With appreciation & respect, Tep, a humble fellow. =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > dear tep, > lol... ask me to recite the alphabet! i cannot. > but i know a good horse takes a loose rein. > > anyway, here's as far as i'd gotten on my search for Discipline when i got > your msg... > > (m.) > sikkhaa; > dama (m). taming; subjugation; restraint; mastery. > niggaha; censure, blame, reproach > sikkhaa (f). study, discipline > (v.t.) > vineti; > sikkheti; > dameti. > (pp.)vin´ta; > sikkhita; > damita or > danta. > > peace, > c. > 57633 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 6:30am Subject: Grounds for delivery of a sutta by the Buddha sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > Sarah: > In the introduction to the commentary to the > Mulapariya Sutta, the four reasons for giving a sutta > by the Buddha are elaborated on with examples of each. > Please let me know if you'd like the full details - > it's quite interesting. > > Han: > Yes, I will be most grateful to have full details. .... Thanks for your encouragement. From the commentary to the Mulapariyaaya Sutta, MN1,introductory section, transl by B.Bodhi (BPS): ***** “(The four grounds for the delivery of a sutta (suttanikkhepa)) There are four grounds for the delivery of a sutta: 1) personal inclination (attajjhaasaya), 2) the inclination of others (parajjhaasaya), 3) the proposal of a question (pucchaavasika), 4) the occurrence of a special incident (a.t.thuppattika) Among these, 1) those suttas which the Exalted One declares entirely through his own inclination, without being requested by others, have personal inclination as the ground for their delivery. Some examples of this class are the Aaka’nkheyya Sutta (M.6), The Vattha Sutta (M.7), the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta (D.22), the Mahaasa.laayatanavibha’nga Sutta (M.137), the Ariyava’msa Sutta (A.4:28), and many suttas on the right endeavours, the bases of spiritual success, the faculties, powers, factors of enlightenment, and factors of the path. ..... 2) Those suttas which he declares by reason of the inclinations of others, after discerning their inclination, acquiescence, state of mind, aspiration, and capacity for understanding, have the inclinations of others as the ground for their delivery. And instance is the case of Raahula, when the Exalted One, perceiving that the factors maturing towards emancipation had reached maturity in Raahula, thought: ‘let me now lead Raahula to the destruction of the cankers.’ Some suttas of this class are the Cuu.laraahula Sutta (M.147), the Mahaaraahula Sutta (M.62), the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (S.56:11), and the Dhaatuvibha’nga Sutta (M.140). ..... 3) When the four assemblies, the four classes, naagas, supa.n.nas, gandhabbas, asuras, yakkhas, the gods of the sense-sphere heavens, and Mahaabrahmaas approach the Exalted One and ask questions – about the factors of enlightenment, hindrances, clinging-aggregates, the ‘best treasure of man,’ and so on – and the Exalted One speaks a sutta in reply, those suttas have the proposal of a question as the ground for their delivery. To this class belong numerous suttas of the Sa’myutta Nikaaya, and the Sakkapa~nha (D.21), Cuu.lavedalla (M.44), Mahaavedalla (M.43), Saama~n~naphala (D.2), and other suttas. ..... 4)And those suttas declared because a special incident has occurred, these have the occurrence of a special incident as the ground for their pronouncement. Examples are the Dhammadaayaada (M.3), Cuu.lasiihanaada (M.11), the Canduupama, Puttama’msuupama, Daarakkhandhuupama, Aggikkhandhuupama, Phe.napi.n.duupama, and Paaricchattakuupama Suttas. .... Of these four, this sutta (Mulapariyaaya) has the occurrence of a special incident as the ground for its delivery, since it was delivered by the Exalted One on account of the occurrence of a special incident. And what was that incident? The arising of conceit on account of learning.....”[S: further details of this follow]. ***** S: I looked in the MahaVagga(1), in the Vinaya Pitaka, where the Anattalakkhana Sutta follows after the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. By this time, the five bhikkhus addressed had already become sotapannas and been ordained on the spot by the Buddha. By the end of the Anattalakkhana Sutta they had become arahants as you know. I think this sutta would also fall into category (2), according to the inclinations of the bhikkhus concerned, rather than any special incident, but that's just my guess. Please share your reflections on any other suttas your regularly recite too or further comments on this. Metta, Sarah ======== 57634 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana .. vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Connie), --- indriyabala wrote: > Tep: Some of her gemstones are too heavy for me to handle! Will you > give me a helping hand, Sarah? .... Oh Tep, I think you're doing a great job on your own - and she's happy to give clarifications and assistance when they get just oh, too heavy to handle:-). Pls continue to encourage her and you'll do us all a favour by adding your comments and questions too. (My knowledge of Pali is very, very basic too:)). Metta, Sarah ======= 57635 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. ken_aitch Hi Howard, I know your message wasn't exactly meant for me, a lost cause. :-) But it begins with a rather baffling statement that I haven't seen you make before: -------- H: > This developing of even mundane right concentration doesn't happen for all folks who have "right [mundane] understanding of the eightfold Path," does it? -------- Yes, it does. There are no exceptions. Right understanding is the forerunner upon which right concentration depends, but once arisen, they, along with the other path factors, support each other. So right understanding does "happen for all folks who have "right [mundane] understanding of the eightfold Path."" Another reason I am baffled by your statement is that you know as well as any of us that concentration (samadhi-cetasika) arises in every citta. It is only *right* concentration that depends on right understanding as its forerunner. All other forms of concentration have citta as their forerunner. If the citta is akusala then concentration is akusala; if the citta is kusala then concentration is kusala. ---------------- H: > The world over, there are people who deeply and intensively study the Buddhadhamma. ---------------- Yes, and in most cases it is with wrong understanding. Right understanding, be it ever so slight, is the necessary forerunner even in pariyatti, the intellectual stages of path development. --------------------------------- H: > How many such folks develop path factors, even at a primitive, mundane level, by study alone? --------------------------------- None by study alone. Study-with-understanding (pariyatti) is the factor that precedes mundane path consciousness (patipatti). --------------------------------------- H: > And why should they? Is that the practice that the Buddha gave: "Merely study my words"? --------------------------------------- Ah well, this is the part of your message that definitely was not meant for me. We have had these conversations so many times, and lately you have been asking me why I bother to reply. I will resist this time. Except to say, yet again, that you are disproving arguments that were never put forward in the first place: --------------------------- H: > Now, it seems that this quoted material gives one condition only for right concentration, namely right understanding. Is that so? A single causal condition? And what is it that leads to right understanding. Is nothing but listening to reports of the "truth" needed? Where did the Buddha say that? Where did he teach that his Dhamma is a species of what we call jnana yoga in the stepped-down sense of repeatedly contemplating true teachings? -------------------------- And you are using Dhamma terms as if they referred to illusory concepts rather than to conditioned dhammas: ------------------------------------ H: > And if that was his assertion, why did he teach for 45 years about guarding the senses and restricting one's behavior, cultivating jhana, and carefully attending to whatever arises from a stable base of internal silence and calm? ------------------------------------ Then you refute some more arguments that were never put forward in the first place: -------------------------------------------------- H: > From time to time I have said that some folks here present Dhamma practice as a "one-trick pony," and that still seems to be the case to me. Why is this so? Is it that study and contemplation is so enjoyable and relatively easy for intellectual "types" that is grasped at as *the* way? The suttas, it seems to me, clearly present many essential activities to engage in and many to refrain from engaging in as constituting the practice. The task of doing all that needs to be done can be quite daunting, I agree. But it makes no sense to me to ignore so much of what the Buddha repeatedly urged upon his followers. Studying the Dhamma is an essential element of the practice. It is a planting of vital seeds. But the seeds won't bear proper fruit unless the field is properly tilled and cultivated. We can contemplate the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada deeply and repeatedly, but if those seeds are planted on rock and not in fertile, cultivated soil, to paraphrase a teaching of an old-time Hebrew, they will not bear fruit. ---------------------------------------------------- I am certainly not accusing you of deliberately misconstruing the arguments. It is a pity, though, that you can't see them the way they were meant. Perhaps we need to go over all this one more time! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Robert, KenH, and, well, you know who you are > (LOL!) - > 57636 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. nimitta, nibbaana. nilovg Dear Scott (and Jon), I hope Jon will also help. Nimitta is avery difficult subject for me. op 08-04-2006 17:06 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: I'm trying to understand the broader > application of the term "nimitta" as expounded by A. Sujin when she > referred to everything we "experience" as nimitta because the reality > has arisen and fallen away already. -------- N: Correct. A reality arises and falls away so fast, but it has gone immediately. The simile of a dream is used because in a dream we are thinking, such as seeing a landscape and things seem to last. Also now we are thinking of many things and they seem to last. Understanding that what is seen or heard has gone completely and that only the sign, the nimitta of visible object or sound remains, helps to become more detached. One begins to realize that there are only the elements of nama and rupa that arise because of conditions and then fall away. When we know that they are gone immediately we attach less importance to them. We have to be careful about the term illusion. If we would say: everything is an illusion it would seem that understanding of realities cannot be developed. That is not so. Visible object has a characteristic, sound has a characteristic, and these can be objects of awareness and understanding. My question to Jon: I do not quite understand that the charactertistic of a reality is the nimitta of it. But perhaps I am reasoning too much. A. Sujin explained that we can only really understand nimitta through insight. At the stage of the first principal insight the arising and falling away of realities is realized. Then paññaa understands that there is a reality without nimitta and that is nibbaana. Nibbaana does not arise and fall, and thus it is without nimitta. --------- Scott: I was thinking, as you help me to > clarify, of what you have referred to above as "reviewing pa.n.na > after the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana have fallen away." > I'm assuming that these lokuttara cittas which experience nibbaana do > so with the rapidity that is their nature and so the traces of this > experience which are there to be caught up with by the subsequent > cittas and cetasikas. I was wondering whether the "memory" of the > experience is "nimitta." What is "reviewing pa.n.na?" ------ N: The reviewing paññaa reviews path-consciousness, fruition-consciousness, the defilements that have been eradicated, and those still remaining and nibbaana. Saññaa accompanies each citta and thus also these mahaa-kusala cittas with paññaa. The lokuttara cittas and the defilements are conditioned realities, and thus they have a nimitta. Nibbaana is without nimitta. It is at that moment experienced by mahaa-kusala cittas with paññaa, and here with regard to the object which is nibbaana the expression: not so classifiable (navattabbam aaramana.m)is used. This is another detail. This is a special case of nibbaana being experienced by mahaa-kusala cittas. -------- S: What is the case as far as lokuttara citta goes? Is there an > experience associated with the arising and falling away of this citta? ----- N: It is reviewed although it has just fallen away. ------- S: N: You are probably thinking of the jhaanacitta that experiences with > absorption a nimitta, the meditation subject. But the right > concentration of the eightfold Path has the strength of > jhaana, but its object is nibbaana, not a nimitta, thus it has a > different object. > > I wasn't thinking of jhaanacitta in the sense you note. I think > rather I was struggling to understand right concentration. What does > it mean, exactly, to say the "object is nibbaana?" ------ N: It means nibbaana is experienced. Each citta has an object, it experiences an object and each citta is accompanied by concentration that focusses on that one object. Citta can experience only one object. Nina. 57637 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. nilovg Hi James, Perhaps it helps if I give some general info on unwholesome mental factors. This my clarify what Tep meant about the four kinds of clinging. The D.O. does not give an order according to time of the factors which are the links. It can be confusing to think that this comes first than that. The purpose of D.O. is to show us why we are in the cycle, and with this aim different aspects are given. I want to speak more in general now. I agree that ignorance is not wrong view of self. However, when an unwholesome mental factor arises, there is always ignorance at the same time. Take attachment or clinging. It is an enemy who comes in disguise of a friend: he makes things pleasant for you so that you feel happy. But he is an enemy and will cause sorrow. All the while when we cling we do not notice the danger, we are ignorant of the danger of clinging. The Visuddhimagga uses the simile of licking honey from a sharp knife. It will hurt, but we may not know ahead of time. We cling to life (one of the kinds of clinging Tep mentioned), but we are only going towards old age, sickness and death. At the moment of clinging we never know that we are clinging, there is ignorance. The words clinging or craving may cause confusion. For precision the Pali is useful, because in one text clinging is used by one translator, and craving by another translator. But these words stand for the same unwholesome root of attachment that has many shades and degrees. We cling to pleasant objects and there is not always wrong view of self at the same time. When wrong view arises it always arises with attachment, it is bound up with clinging. And also, at the same time there is ignorance. Ignorance does not realize that there is wrong view. Conceit may arise and this also arises together with attachment, it is bound up with clinging. It cannot arise at the same time as wrong view, its object is different: I am so important I am better than someone else. But ignorance arises also together with conceit. This is only a little general info. If you like to read more on wholesome and unwholesome roots: The Roots of Good and Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika, it is on line, but I lost the link (Phil has it). Nina. op 08-04-2006 10:37 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > ignorance isn't the false sense of self. The > false sense of self comes much farther down in the links of > causation and is caused by clinging. So, in other words, the KS > philosophy states that the false sense of self causes clinging, when > it is actually clinging which causes the false sense of self. 57638 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/9/06 9:41:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I know your message wasn't exactly meant for me, a lost cause. :-) > But it begins with a rather baffling statement that I haven't seen > you make before: > -------- > H: > This developing of even mundane right concentration > doesn't happen for all folks who have "right [mundane] understanding > of the eightfold Path," does it? > -------- > > Yes, it does. There are no exceptions. Right understanding is the > forerunner upon which right concentration depends, but once arisen, > they, along with the other path factors, support each other. So > right understanding does "happen for all folks who have "right > [mundane] understanding of the eightfold Path."" --------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps you could tell me about all the nonexceptions among the folks here on DSG? Who here, particularly among the non-meditators, has developed right concentration as far as you know? There certainly are plenty of non-meditators here who are well studied in the Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------- > > Another reason I am baffled by your statement is that you know as > well as any of us that concentration (samadhi-cetasika) arises in > every citta. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I consider the statement that right concentration arises in every mindstate to be outright false. And, BTW, on what basis do you claim to "know" this?? ----------------------------------------------- It is only *right* concentration that depends on right > > understanding as its forerunner. All other forms of concentration > have citta as their forerunner. If the citta is akusala then > concentration is akusala; if the citta is kusala then concentration > is kusala. > > ---------------- > H: >The world over, there are people who deeply and intensively > study the Buddhadhamma. > ---------------- > > Yes, and in most cases it is with wrong understanding. Right > understanding, be it ever so slight, is the necessary forerunner > even in pariyatti, the intellectual stages of path development. > > --------------------------------- > H: >How many such folks develop path factors, even at a primitive, > mundane level, by study alone? > --------------------------------- > > None by study alone. Study-with-understanding (pariyatti) is the > factor that precedes mundane path consciousness (patipatti). ----------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, study-with-understanding. Where does that understanding come from? What are the conditions that are the basis for it arising? If no special kamma (volitional action) other than Dhamma study is required, then why are not all Dhamma students graced with right understanding? I have interacted with many Dhamma scholars who display arrogance, ego, and intolerance? How come? (Don't answer, I know: the magic word 'accumulations', one of the the pseudo-Dhamma equivalents to "God's will". What, after all, is the source for accumulations? More accumulations? Must not volitional correction get into the act somewhere if there is to be a way out?) ----------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------- > H: >And why should they? Is that the practice that the Buddha > gave: "Merely study my words"? > --------------------------------------- > > Ah well, this is the part of your message that definitely was not > meant for me. We have had these conversations so many times, and > lately you have been asking me why I bother to reply. > > I will resist this time. Except to say, yet again, that you are > disproving arguments that were never put forward in the first place: > --------------------------- > H: > Now, it seems that this quoted material gives one > condition only for right concentration, namely right understanding. > Is that so? A single causal condition? And what is it that leads to > right understanding. Is nothing but listening to reports of > the "truth" needed? Where did the Buddha say that? Where did he > teach that his Dhamma is a species of what we call jnana yoga in the > stepped-down sense of repeatedly contemplating true teachings? > -------------------------- > > And you are using Dhamma terms as if they referred to illusory > concepts rather than to conditioned dhammas: > ------------------------------------ > H: >And if that was his assertion, why did he teach for 45 years > about guarding the senses and restricting one's behavior, > cultivating jhana, and carefully attending to whatever > arises from a stable base of internal silence and calm? > ------------------------------------ > > Then you refute some more arguments that were never put forward in > the first place: > -------------------------------------------------- > H: > From time to time I have said that some folks here > present Dhamma practice as a "one-trick pony," and that still seems > to be the case to me. Why is this so? Is it that study and > contemplation is so enjoyable and relatively easy for > intellectual "types" that is grasped at as *the* way? The suttas, it > seems to me, clearly present many essential activities to engage in > and many to > refrain from engaging in as constituting the practice. The task of > doing all that needs to be done can be quite daunting, I agree. But > it makes no sense to me to ignore so much of what the Buddha > repeatedly urged upon his followers. > Studying the Dhamma is an essential element of the practice. > It is a planting of vital seeds. But the seeds won't bear proper > fruit unless the field is properly tilled and cultivated. We can > contemplate the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada deeply and > repeatedly, but if those seeds are planted on rock and not in > fertile, cultivated soil, to paraphrase a teaching of an old-time > Hebrew, they will not bear fruit. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > I am certainly not accusing you of deliberately misconstruing the > arguments. It is a pity, though, that you can't see them the way > they were meant. Perhaps we need to go over all this one more > time! :-) -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, if I misconstrue positions, I am not alone in doing so. I don't think that I and others who "misinterpret" positions here are slow of wit. So, perhaps positions should be put forward more clearly. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Scott, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Robert, KenH, and, well, you know who > you are > >(LOL!) - > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57639 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 7:45am Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Nina), Sure, Nina can go ahead and give her opinion (anyone can chime in if they would like). If Nina agrees with me, are you going to think she is right? If she disagrees with me, are you going to think that you are right? Really, you shouldn't look for anyone's opinion about this subject. I think you should form your own opinion by studying the texts. Unfortunately, in this thread we are discussing dependent origination and you are quoting suttas which are not specifically about dependent origination. However, I will make some comments in advance of Nina's verdict. ;-)) Tep: You might have mistaken clinging for craving ! James: I don't think so. I quoted the sutta which clearly defines the differences between clinging and craving. Go back to that sutta and explain where I might have made a mistake- don't quote an entirely different sutta which isn't specifically addressing dependent origination. I am not going to discuss those suttas because that will complicate this discussion beyond recognition. But, to put it simply, from my understanding clinging is simply a stronger form of craving- and the two terms can be used interchangeably when the sutta isn't designed to be precise in that regard. Tep: Therefore, the craving for becoming is the craving to existence, and the craving for non-becoming is the craving to non- existence. Indeed, the Buddha taught in AN IV.199, Tahna Sutta, that wrong views(ditthi) on atta (self) are the cause of tanha(craving). With craving then there is clinging, according to Dependent Origination. So, clinging follows the craving that follows wrong views abot self. James: I completely and utterly disagree with this. I believe you have misinterpreted the Tahna Sutta. Tep: So, I remain convinced that "Clinging to self means that first there must be a belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows." James: This doesn't make any sense. It is the same as saying that there must first be a self in order for there to be self-clinging. You didn't answer my question I asked in the previous post: Where do you think that the "belief in self" comes from? If the "belief in self" doesn't come from clinging, then it would have to come from the actual existence of a self! Beliefs don't just appear out of thin air- beliefs also must have conditions for their arising. To re-quote what you wrote, "So, clinging follows the craving that follows wrong views about self." Not only is your formula completely opposite of the Buddha's teaching about dependent origination, but you have failed to pinpoint the causation for the wrong view about self. But, Tep, I don't want this dialogue to get overly heated. I can sense (maybe incorrectly) that this issue is getting you a little worked up. Metta, James 57640 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 7:59am Subject: Re: The 108 Feelings ... !!! & The 108 Cravings ... !!! indriyabala Hi, Ven. Samahita (and dsg friends) - Thank you a lot for your post on the 108 feelings. There are also 108 cravings(tanha). The Dependent Origination states : Vedanaa-paccayaa tanhaa Questions: Is there a one-to-one correspondence between the 108 feelings and the 108 cravings? If not, then why not? For those who love the 'Useful Posts' I want you to know that I have searched the files but not found the 108 tanhas. With all due respect, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > > Friends: > > The Classification of Feeling produces unique Understanding!!! > > The Blessed Buddha once said: > (snipped). > > What are the 108 kinds of feelings? > The above 36 feelings here and now in the present, those 36 feelings in the future, > and the above 36 feelings in the gone by past. These are the 108 kinds of feelings... > > This, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma explanation of the 108 feelings. > (snipped) 57641 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Perhaps it helps if I give some general info on unwholesome mental factors. I think it would help me more if you would explain the purpose of your post. Are you agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, thinking outloud, or what? I read your post a couple of times and all I could think is "Huh? Why is she telling me this?" Metta, James 57642 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 4:02am Subject: Correction Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 4/9/06 10:42:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > > > >Another reason I am baffled by your statement is that you know as > >well as any of us that concentration (samadhi-cetasika) arises in > >every citta. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I consider the statement that right concentration arises in every > mindstate to be outright false. And, BTW, on what basis do you claim to > "know" > this?? > ====================== I read too quickly. I misread 'samadhi-cetasika' as "samma- samadhi". Sorry. However, the degree of concentration that is present all the time is Dhammically unimportant. Animals have some degree of concentration in place at all waking moments also. This degree of concentration is irreelvant to the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57643 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 8:20am Subject: James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) indriyabala Dear James (and Nina) - Nina's answer in another post is smooth and satisfying. She kindly chose not to answer my blunt question : "Who is wrong?". In a court of law, however, that kind of "kind answer" would not be acceptable because it does not convict any wrongdoer (with a wrongview). {:>)) > > James: I don't think so. ... I am not going to discuss those suttas > because that will complicate this discussion beyond recognition. > > But, to put it simply, from my understanding clinging is simply a > stronger form of craving- and the two terms can be used > interchangeably when the sutta isn't designed to be precise in that > regard. > ... ... > >Tep: So, clinging follows the craving that follows wrong views about self. > > James: I completely and utterly disagree with this. I believe you > have misinterpreted the Tahna Sutta. > > Tep: So, I remain convinced that "Clinging to self means that first > there must be a belief that self exists, then self-clinging follows." > > James: This doesn't make any sense. It is the same as saying that > there must first be a self in order for there to be self-clinging. > > You didn't answer my question I asked in the previous post: Where do > you think that the "belief in self" comes from? If the "belief in > self" doesn't come from clinging, then it would have to come from > the actual existence of a self! ........... Tep: You're right that craving has to come from self views as stated in the sutta AN.V,199 Tanha Sutta. ............ > > But, Tep, I don't want this dialogue to get overly heated. I can > sense (maybe incorrectly) that this issue is getting you a little > worked up. > Tep: How could you ever be incorrect? Peace, Tep, your humble fellow. ================== 57644 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 4:31am Subject: The Nature of Concentration upasaka_howard Hi, Ken & all - What is the concentration cetasika that is present in all mindstates? If it is never absent, what is it to be distinguished from? And what does concentration actually do? How does it manifest? During any mindstate, there is but one aramanna. What does the concentration then present actually do? What would it mean for there to not be any concentration present in a mindstate? As I see it, concentration as an activity, that is, when manifested, is an operation that spans mindstates and makes sense with respect to a single mindstate only as an *inclination*. I understand the ekagatta cetasika as being the tendency r potetial or "impulsion" for the current object- content to repeat in subsequent mindstates, with such repetition being the manifestation of the one-pointedness. The stronger that momentary ekagatta cetasika is, the more certain and the more extended in time will be the repetition of "the same" object in subsequent mindstates. When the mind jumps around from object to object frequently with change of mindstate, concentration is weak. The more frequent the jumping, the weaker the concentration. The less frequent, the greater the "focus". BTW, this post is study-oriented, not dispute-oriented, just in case anyone is wondering. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57645 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 8:57am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. nimitta, nibbaana. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. N: "Correct. A reality arises and falls away so fast, but it has gone immediately. The simile of a dream is used because in a dream we are thinking, such as seeing a landscape and things seem to last. Also now we are thinking of many things and they seem to last...We have to be careful about the term illusion. If we would say: everything is an illusion it would seem that understanding of realities cannot be developed. That is not so. Visible object has a characteristic, sound has a characteristic, and these can be objects of awareness and understanding." In the PED I read where "nimitta" is given as: "outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon." I also note that it is meant in the opposite sense as "essence." This latter, although I've likely missed the point, seems interesting. I think here of the difference between that which appears to be versus reality. The illusion lies in the apparent coherence of the world, and not, as you say, in the actual dhammas on which this appearance is based. Also, you mention sa.n.na below, and since sa.n.na marks the object I am curious as to its role in this process of "nimitta formation." The PED also notes "mental relfex" as definition. This reminds me of the old perceptual thing which I believe is referred to as an "eidetic image." Look at the flame of a candle momentarily, close your eyes, and then you will see, for a few instants, the visual representation of the flame in your "mind's eye" until it fades. This is what I associate to nimitta. I find that recalling that all that I think I experience is actually nothing but the ghosts of experience is very helpful in maintaining mindfulness. N: "The reviewing paññaa reviews path-consciousness, fruition-consciousness, the defilements that have been eradicated, and those still remaining and nibbaana. Saññaa accompanies each citta and thus also these mahaa-kusala cittas with paññaa. The lokuttara cittas and the defilements are conditioned realities, and thus they have a nimitta. Nibbaana is without nimitta. It is at that moment experienced by mahaa-kusala cittas with paññaa, and here with regard to the object which is nibbaana the expression: not so classifiable (navattabbam aaramana.m)is used. This is another detail. This is a special case of nibbaana being experienced by mahaa-kusala cittas...It means nibbaana is experienced. Each citta has an object, it experiences an object and each citta is accompanied by concentration that focusses on that one object. Citta can experience only one object." I still find aspects of this hard to understand. The object experienced, in this case nibbaana, has no nimitta yet the experience of nibbaana falls under the auspices of the reviewing pa.n.na. Is it that the reviewing pa.n.na "reviews" the nimitta of lokuttara citta? I think this is a function of sa.n.na which marks the mahaa-kusula citta. Have I mucked it up? I appreciate, as always, your kind diligence in Dhamma-friendship. Sincerely, Scott. 57646 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 9:15am Subject: Re: Please help with questions about Ajaan Sujin jwromeijn Hallo Marisa To prevent that the scientific value of your research on the role of mrs. Sujin diminishes because only devotees are writing you, some answer to your questions by me. QUESTIONS: 1. When did you begin studying with Ajaan Sujin? English is not my native language but 'studying with' is not the right expression; 'hearing about' and 'reading' is better; I can answer: a year ago I found some of her texts on internet. In a secundary way I studied because I had and have many discussions with her pupils (Nina, Sarah, etc) on Dhamma Study Group; it toke me a long time before I discovered they were pupils of mrs. Sujin. (Ajaan is a term I don't use) 2. How did you find out about her? Looking for texts about 'Abhidhamma' and hearing her name in DSG 3. What about her teachings attracted you? If I may replace 'teachings' with 'texts', then my answer will be: the texts are clear, understandable (for example not much Pali). 4. What has been your involvement with the dhamma foundation? Nothing. I have an involvement in the Dhamma Study Group and the first time I heard the name 'foundation' I had no idea, then I understood it was a building somewhere in Bangkok (I live in Europe), later Sukin told me something about the organisation. 5. If you have studied elsewhere, please compare your experiences with your time with Ajaan Sujin, similarities and differences. What I like in the work of mrs. Sujin and her 'foundation' is that it is a LAY MOVEMENT, (even if the followers of her deny that it is a lay movement). What I don't like is that she thinks (formal sitting) meditation is useless but is not straight saying that. Other experiences of me: vipassana meditation: weekly and retreats of one week in which my own experiences are object of reflection, with some good teachers I have had. The second aspect of my buddhistic path is Dhamma study, the last year especially Abhidhamma study. I have had courses of a Burmese monk that were O.K. too: with Abhidhamma the person of the teacher (if capable) is not important. I hope you can use this answer in the composition of your thesis. Metta Joop 57647 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. nilovg Hi James, meant as some basic, but I believe necessary, info before tackling the D.O. If we have no clear idea about citta and its accompanying mental factors at different moments, wholesome or unwholesome, well, it is very difficult to understand the D.O. There is a chance of getting lost in it. More thinking out loud, I am not in so much for agreeing or disagreeing. But if it does not help, it is all right. Nina. op 09-04-2006 16:58 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > I think it would help me more if you would explain the purpose of your > post. Are you agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, thinking > outloud, or what? I read your post a couple of times and all I could > think is "Huh? Why is she telling me this?" 57648 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 0:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. buddhatrue Hi Nina and Tep, Both of your recent posts absolutely disgust me: Tep: Nina's answer in another post is smooth and satisfying. She kindly chose not to answer my blunt question... Nina: I am not in so much for agreeing or disagreeing. But if it does not help, it is all right. Thank you both for completely wasting my time. I think that this issue has monumental importance, but you both seem to see it as the opportunity for a cuddle and nap session. Thanks for nothing. I will keep on keeping on. You two can keep on sleeping. James 57649 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three cheers for Kom!! HumanRealm is the ONLY LAUNCH PT.toNirvana. eddielou_us Hi, Sukin, Hi, Sarah, Sorry about confusion regarding addressing Sukin incorrectly, my apology. I live in Los Angeles, USA. Eddie Lou sarah abbott wrote: Hi Eddie, --- Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, Sarah, > Glad to be some help and got recognized as a DSG member. ... :-) You'll be even better recognised if you would kindly put a photo in the member album (on the homepage). Also, would you remind us again whereabouts in the States (I think) you live.... [Oh and Tep in passing,thx for your other pix in passing, but we're still waiting for your half-promised member pic...now you know how to use the photo album, it should be easy:-)] ... > Quite a timing, I was to tell you of my receipt (received just > yesterday) of the book 'Survey on Paramattha Dhammas' by Sujin > Boriharnwanaket. Thanks very much and a lot of info to absorb. Thanks > also to Sukin, can you please also let her know. ... S: Thx for letting us know. Just for the benefit of other newbies, let me assure everyone that Sukin is a 'he' and not to be confused with Sujin. [See photo album again for clarification:-)] If you find anything of special interest or any queeries from the book, pls raise them! ... > Your comment pointer to ..a quote of A.Sujin's which I heard on a tape > yesterday and liked a lot: > > "Anything which we think can help moves us away from the reality of > this > moment.".. > > One instance I can think of is when one is on a phone or cell phone, > especially more profound while driving, one is shifted from driving > moment of reality, to that of phone conversation. > > Thx for the encouragement, Sarah. ... S: Of course, there is also reality at each of these moments. If we think that driving or phone conversations are moving us away from the reality of this moment, that would be wrong too... Did you have anything else to add on this - I'm not sure if I understand your comment. Metta, Sarah ========= 57650 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Grounds for delivery of a sutta by the Buddha hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. You are right that Anattalakkhana Sutta falls into category (2), according to the inclinations of the bhikkhus concerned. But what I think is the Buddha would deliver this sutta (even if it was not necessary for the five yogis) at the very first opportunity, because to teach the anattaa doctrine was one of his most important missions. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, << snip >> > S: I looked in the MahaVagga(1), in the Vinaya > Pitaka, where the > Anattalakkhana Sutta follows after the > Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. By > this time, the five bhikkhus addressed had already > become sotapannas and > been ordained on the spot by the Buddha. By the end > of the Anattalakkhana > Sutta they had become arahants as you know. I think > this sutta would also > fall into category (2), according to the > inclinations of the bhikkhus > concerned, rather than any special incident, but > that's just my guess. > 57651 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) lbidd2 Hi James, Regarding the source of self view, in Vism. self view (idea) is one of the four kinds of clinging (sensuous, rules and rituals, views, and self view) and this follows craving. Psychologically, we could say self view (who I am) is a matter of what is appropriated or cultivated. Usually we appropriate quite a few negative characteristics as me or mine but this appropriation is regarded as desire based. I think this is because the concept of me and mine is fundamentally needy. However, conceit is a deeper sense of self. Its proximate cause is greed _dissociated_ from views. So I guess that means conceit is a form of sensuous clinging (mental object clinging?). One way to understand this is that craving/greed is a basic dualistic split. Hence the sense of internal and external, self and other and comparisons. This in itself seems like a bit of a view to me so I think what is intended is a sense of duality or separation unelaborated by views. Basically fear. Larry 57652 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 4:48pm Subject: Vism.XVII,69 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 69. The intention of [some] teachers is that it establishes the profitable, etc., state in what is profitable, etc., as paddy seeds, etc., do for paddy, etc., and as the colour of gems, etc., do for the lustre of gems, and so on.10 But if that is so, then [it follows that] the state of root-cause condition does not apply to the kinds of materiality originated by it, for it does not establish any profitableness, etc., in them. Nevertheless, it is a condition for them, for this is said: 'Root-causes are a condition, as root-cause condition, for the states associated with a root-cause and for the kinds of materiality originated thereby' (P.tn.1,1). Again, the indeterminateness of root-causeless consciousness is established without it. And the profitableness, etc., of those with root-cause is bound up with wise attention, etc., not with the associated root-causes. And if the profitableness, etc., resided in the associated root-causes as an individual essence, then either the non-greed bound up with the root-cause in the associated states would be only profitable or it would be only indeterminate; but since it can be both, profitableness, etc., in the root-causes must still be sought for, just as in the associated states [such as wise attention, and so on]. ----------------------- Note 10. 'This refers to the teacher Revata' (Pm. 582). ************************ 69. so saaliaadiina.m saalibiijaadiini viya, ma.nipabhaadiina.m viya ca ma.niva.n.naadayo kusalaadiina.m kusalaadibhaavasaadhakoti aacariyaana.m adhippaayo. eva.m sante pana ta.msamu.t.thaanaruupesu hetupaccayataa na sampajjati. na hi so tesa.m kusalaadibhaava.m saadheti, na ca paccayo na hoti. vutta~nheta.m ``hetuu hetusampayuttakaana.m dhammaana.m ta.msamu.t.thaanaana~nca ruupaana.m hetupaccayena paccayo´´ti (pa.t.thaa01.1.1). ahetukacittaana~nca vinaa etena abyaakatabhaavo siddho, sahetukaanampi ca yonisomanasikaaraadipa.tibaddho kusalaadibhaavo, na sampayuttahetupa.tibaddho. yadi ca sampayuttahetuusu sabhaavatova kusalaadibhaavo siyaa, sampayuttesu hetupa.tibaddho alobho kusalo vaa siyaa abyaakato vaa. yasmaa pana ubhayathaapi hoti, tasmaa yathaa sampayuttesu, eva.m hetuusupi kusalaaditaa pariyesitabbaa. 57653 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 5:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four / to Larry ken_aitch Hi Larry, Thanks for your reply. Sorry for being a bit inquisitorial, but there have been disconcerting occasions lately where I have wondered, "If this is genuine Dhamma, how has it entirely escaped my notice until now?" With several members here (not just you) it is hard to know when they are discussing Theravada, and when they are introducing Mahayana, or their own ideas. I wonder if other groups have this trouble. Imagine there was an apple-discussing group: if some members discussed oranges without making it clear at the time, there could be some classic misunderstandings. :-) Ken H Some of what I said is my interpretation of > my experience and some of what I said is my interpretation of what I > have read. The rest is just nonsense ;-)) > > I assume you mean, are these ideas consistent with reality? Probably > not. They are just a view, an opinion, something to cling to. > > Larry > 57654 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 7:30pm Subject: Re: James' Long Response nichiconn Dear James and Tep, > James: I don't think so. ... [snip] two terms can be used > interchangeably when the sutta isn't designed to be precise in that > regard. > ... c: how do we tell? 57655 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 3:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ontological Status of the Tilakkhana -- The term "Reality" TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 3/30/2006 8:19:01 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG TGrand458@... wrote: >Hi Jon > >All good points! > > Thanks, TG. Yours too! > >Bottom line is...for most of us, when the term "reality" is used it will be >near impossible to disassociate it from the idea of "entity." And seeing >things as "entities" is a self-viewpoint. > > Speak for yourself! In the context of what are the dhammas/'realities' of the present moment -- for example, seeing consciousness, visible object, thinking, feeling, hardness, etc. -- I just don't see where the 'entity' thing comes into it. TG: It's a very subtle thing. When the mind 'identifies' things, it seeks to establish an 'identity.' The root of identity is "entity"!!! I think problems arise when there is too much conceptualising about 'dhammas', and not the realisation that it is a term being used to describe something about the present moment. >[J:] You find that the term 'reality' carries too much 'ontological >baggage'. Now I'm not sure what exactly that means, but I believe you >are referring to connotations associated with the term as it is used in >the Mahayana texts. However, those who are less familiar with the >Mahayana texts than you may not have the same difficulty. > >TG: I'm too rusty on Mahayana texts to speak much about them. I'm just >referring to what the "general Joe" would think of by the word "reality." I >think my opening statement has cleared that up now. > > Yes, that has clarified things somewhat. I think you're saying that the term 'reality' has certain (undesirable) connotations to those who have never met it in a Dhamma context before. TG: I wouldn't expect that a 'dhamma context' clarifies the issue. >[J:] To my understanding, the term 'dhamma', as used in the >sense of 'presently arising dhammas', refers to the bare components >('phenomena') of the present moment, as distinct from our perception of >a world of people and things as being the 'reality'. Do you find this >distinction a valid and useful one? > >TG: Dhamma is multifaceted. The way you describe using it about is maybe >1/10th of its meaning. Problem is, some take that 1/10th and turn it into a >whole religion. This is typical of all later Buddhist schools. I.E., to take >a small piece of the Buddha's teachings and claim that's the true essence of >the teachings. > >In further reflection...the "bare components" are just terms used for >analysis. They are not supposed to be "things of themsleves." > >I am frustrated because I continually quote from the Suttas... discourses >which fully support my points...and they almost always get totally ignored be >those I write to (not necessarily you Jon, I'm just venting). Instead of >folks responding to the quotes, they just give more of the same. > > I do sympathise with your frustration. Let me give you a chance to be heard loud and clear. You say the teaching about the phenomena arising at the present moment, and the understanding of those phenomena, is but a small part of the overall teaching. What then to your understanding is the development of insight that leads to enlightenment? I don't mean what are your views on *how* insight is to be developed, but what is actually happening when insight is being developed. What is going on at such moments that happens at no other time? TG: Insight is clear about impermanence, suffering, and or no-self. Awareness of the present moment is a means to an end. The point of the issue is not to know the present moment, that is just the "exercise." The point is to know impermanence, suffering, and or no-self to the extent necessary to detach the mind from all conditions INCLUDING THE PRESENT MOMENT. >Its almost like they don't want to hear the suttas. And these same folks >continually say that the suttas say the the Buddha taught us to see ultimate >realities with their own characteristics. The Buddha DID NOT TEACH THAT. That >is merely an interpretation based on analysis that is subjective. The >Buddha clearly had opportunity to teach the above had he wanted to...yet he didn't >teach it like that. So seems to me, the Buddha was either unable to say >what he meant, or meant something other than the words that are being put into >his mouth. > > Wow! Powerful stuff, TG. But I think if we are honest all statements about what the Buddha taught involve interpretations of the suttas. (The reason for this may be that his listeners were on the whole a lot closer to enlightenment than we are, and so had a much better grasp of the subject matter than we do.) We need to use other words to make the Buddha's message comprehensible among ourselves. I defy you to say anything meaningful without doing so! TG: I have no problem with that idea. What I have a problem with is claiming that the "interpretation" IS the Buddha's teaching. To the best of our understanding the Suttas (for the most part) are the closest representations to the Buddha's teaching. The Abhidhamma is an analysis of the Buddha's teaching. Commentaries and other secondary materials are interpretations (mixed with analysis) of the Buddha's teachings. The teachings should be called -- "the teachings" The analysis should be called -- "the analysis" The interpretations should be called -- "the interpretations" Distortions begin as soon as these get mixed up. In this group, several folks regularly call "interpretations" --> "teachings." This is convenient for defending their point of view, but it is not accurate. It leads to confusion. Just a final comment, which I hope may help steer things along in the right direction. I think part of the problem in the dialogue to date has been that what I might mean by 'paramattha dhammas having their own characteristic', and what you say I must mean when I say that, are not always the same thing. In other words, I may not share your views on what are the necessary connotations of the terminology. This can hamper further discussion sometimes ;-)) TG: This is the crux of the difference of opinion I think. To me... seeing things as having "their own characteristics" is a conventional way of thinking. I believe that insight is the understanding that transcends this viewpoint and replaces it with the knowledge that nothing has anything of its own. >TG: I'm quite comfortable using English translations...my problem with >"reality" as a translation is that upholds a way of letting "self viewpoint" >escape unscathed. > > Well that is a matter of opinion, I would say ;-)) >I predicted the term reality would not be dropped without a strong fight. I >believe that is because it is a source of much attachment and a way for >self-view to subliminally linger. I believe abhidhamma is "unwittingly a theory >of micro-selves popping in and out of existence." That's what I think, but I >can't say for sure that I'm right. > > I suppose it is possible to interpret the Abhidhamma this way, but I'm not sure what would lead one to this view. What in particular suggests 'micro-selves' to you? TG: If you don't understand it given the context of our discussion this last month or so, there won't be anything I can say to make it clear now. It really has been the main point of my posts in these last couple of months and I've tried to explain it in various ways. We are just on a different page in this regard. Good talking to you, as always. Jon Always fun! TG 57656 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattalakkhana Sutta: Part Four / to Larry lbidd2 Ken H: "Imagine there was an apple-discussing group: if some members discussed oranges without making it clear at the time, there could be some classic misunderstandings. :-)" Hi Ken, I agree, it's a slippery slope. But even if all we talk about is apples, that's nothing to cling to. I was reading something about Kierkegaard today that said objective language is a subjective projection of control. Subjective language is closer to experience precisely because it is vague and evocative of many meanings. How's that for a twist on conventional truth and ultimate truth? ;-)) Larry 57657 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 8:50pm Subject: Re: Please help nichiconn jwromeijn -- "with Abhidhamma the person of the teacher (if capable) is not important." dear joop indeed! a man paints with his mind, not his hand -- michaelangelo. who cares about a person? but by capable, what do you mean? the teacher expounds in accordance with the testimony of the distinguished arahats? as to what the buddha said and meant? surely, they knew. but i walk by faith and misapprehension. ie, doubt? i've just been playing your Sayadaw Nandamalavivamsa again. english is western. is this what you keep trying to get at? or that this is the year anicco domingo double-aught 6? with your science and all. i think if we call the teachings of our lord 'theory', we are in deeper trouble than we really care to know. thank you, btw, for the last msg you sent off-list. no offense meant if i don't always answer. not that we don't often rise to the same bait, but sometimes i am slow to spit anything back out. lol... the grandchildren do not always fall under the category of 'beloved'! best wishes to your wife, too. happy anniversary (whenever!). peace, connie 57658 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ontological Status of the Tilakkhana -- The term "Reality" upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Jon) - In a message dated 4/9/06 10:33:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: This is the crux of the difference of opinion I think. To me... > seeing > things as having "their own characteristics" is a conventional way of > thinking. I believe that insight is the understanding that transcends this > > viewpoint and replaces it with the knowledge that nothing has anything of > its own. > ======================= TG, I like this very much! You zero in here on exactly what anatta is all about: Nothing (and no one) has anything of its own, including own-being/identity! Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma. It is the basis for anatta, anicca, and dukkha. And he who knows dependent origination knows the Dhamma the Buddha has told us. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57659 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ontological Status of the Tilakkhana -- The term "Reality" corvus121 Hi TG and Jon An interesting thread - mind if I butt in with a comment? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > To the best of our understanding the Suttas (for the most part) are the > closest representations to the Buddha's teaching. The Abhidhamma is an analysis > of the Buddha's teaching. Commentaries and other secondary materials are > interpretations (mixed with analysis) of the Buddha's teachings. > > The teachings should be called -- "the teachings" > The analysis should be called -- "the analysis" > The interpretations should be called -- "the interpretations" Are not the words of the suttas, correctly translated, analysed and interpreted, "the teachings"? If somebody is discussing Dhamma in an Abhidhamma context, is he or she immediately disqualified from partaking of "the teachings"? TG, what is the *practical* purpose of your 3-way division above? Are you, in practical terms, able to separate teachings from analysis from interpretation? And do you do so along the lines of "I'm reading a sutta therefore I am dealing with the teachings"? Any thoughts? Best wishes Andrew T 57660 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 10:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 419 - mindfulness/sati (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Chapter 26 Mindfulness (sati) When we apply ourselves to generosity, dåna, to morality, síla, or to mental development, bhåvanå, there is confidence, saddhå, with the kusala citta. Without confidence in the value of kusala we could not perform any kind of kusala. Kusala citta does not only need confidence in order to perform its task, it also needs mindfulness, sati, which is heedful, non-forgetful, of kusala. There are many opportunities for generosity, for morality and for mental development, but we are often forgetful of kusala and we waste such opportunities. When mindfulness arises there is heedfulness of kusala and then the opportunity for kusala which presents itself is not wasted. There has to be mindfulness with dåna, with síla, with samatha and with the development of insight. ***** (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 57661 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, You raise some good questions on neutral feeling (upekkhaa) --- indriyabala wrote: > > The One of Broad Wisdom has taught > > With reference to that peaceful feeling, > > Neither-painful-nor-pleasant: > > If one seeks delight even in this, > > One is still not released from suffering. > > > > But when a bhikkhu who is ardent > > Does not neglect clear comprehension, > > Then that wise man fully understands > > Feelings in their entirety. .... > Tep : Please allow me to use questions to initiate a discussion. > > 1. The neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is neutral -- it does not > make a person joyful or sad or unhappy: it is just like nothing. Then > why does one "seek delight" in it? I wouldn't. .... S: It seems mad and yet there is attachment arising even when there's no pleasant feeling throughout the day. It gives an indication of how subtle attachment can be and even this ordinary attachment to sense experiences such as seeing and hearing (only ever accompanied by neutral feeling), has to be known. There is clinging to life and to continuing to experience these sense experiences with or without any wrong views arising. Even when we think about familiar concepts about what has been seen and heard, it's often with neutral feeling and we have no idea about the attachment. Sometimes the different kinds of dukkha are classified by the feelings. So dukkha dukkha is classifed as unpleasant feeling. Viparinama dukkha as pleasant feeling and the dukkha of all conditioned realities as upekkhaa (neutral feeling). It means, as I understand, that even neutral feelings have to be understood as dukkha in addition to the unpleasant and pleasant feelings, more easily understood. .... > > 2. How and why does the feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain cause > ignorance-obsession (avijja-nusaya) in a person? > > MN 148 provides an answer: 'If, when touched by a feeling of neither > pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, > the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that > feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed.' .... S: Thank you for the good answer! All kinds of feelings, all kinds of dhammas have to be known by insight development. Otherwise the avijjanusaya can never be eradicated. Without insight, avijjanusaya just continues to accumulate more and more from lifetime to lifetime. Dhammas are seen as being permanent, satisfactory and belonging to a self. .... > 3. Please suggest how to fully understand the > neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling "in its entirety". .... S: I think that it helps to appreciate first of all that it's so very common and arises with all kinds of cittas (kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya). When we appreciate that attachment can arise with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling and that kusala (wholesome states) can also arise with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling, we can see that we cannot make judgements according to the feelings. (You may like to re-read the chapter on 'vedana' in 'Cetasikas' and also posts saved under 'feelings' and 'upekkha' in U.P.) I think it's a mistake to try to know any particular dhamma such as upekkhaa by noticing or catching or labelling it. By reflecting and considering what it is, we'll be less attached or concerned about 'my neutral feelings to be known' and as understanding and detachment develop, it can be known directly if it is experienced and there are conditions for sati to be aware of it. Like now, if the feeling isn't pleasant or unpleasant, it's unpleasant. Very, very common....and so is the attachment slipping in... Metta, Sarah ====== 57662 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three Suttas about Atta ... Understandings sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Thanks again for your kind words and response: --- indriyabala wrote: > Tep: > 1. I am not so sure either if 'atta-ditthi' is broader than > 'sakkaaya-ditthi', but Nyanatiloka Dictionary states that they are the > same. ... S: Thank you for this. It's what I'd always understood (and of course under the 4 upadanas, attavaadupaadaana only refers to clinging to self, not other wrong views. I may have been (and may still be!) confused by a term K.Sujin often uses - 'attanuditthi' which she stresses repeatedly as being wider in meaning than sakkaaya ditthi, eg including ideas of permanence of objects not related to these five khandhas - eg, the permanence of a rock, nothing to do with self-view. Looking in Buddhadatta's dictionary, there is a term 'a.t.thaana' meaning 'wrong place or position or impossibility'. Maybe it's a.t.thaanudi.t.thi that she's using to include all wrong views....Perhaps others know. .... <..> > Sarah: "Here, it is stressed that by understanding dhammas, the > khandhas, as arising and passing away directly, all kinds of > clinging/attachment are (eventually) eradicated." > > In particular, it would be very helpful if you can be clear about > which kinds of understanding you are talking about, and how they are > developed by the sotapanna and, also, by the arahant? .... S: I believe I was talking about the context of a sutta, Satta Sutta and the understanding of the arising and falling of dhammas and need to understand all kinds of craving - 'In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form. etc'. By understanding the khandhas directly as arising and passing away (1st maha vipassana onwards), it's clearly seen how useless it is to cling to any reality as I mentioned. As I said this is why understanding leads to more and more detachment. The precise understanding of dhammas, of namas and rupas, as they are continues to develop for the sotapanna, even though all wrong view has been eradicated. He continues to penetrate the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and 'contemplate'/directly know the other anupassanaas you've enumerated before from Pts. Even for the arahant, nothing left to be done or realized, but understanding still develops. Do you have any different ideas? Thanks again for all your helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ========== 57663 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 11:56pm Subject: Re: The Nature of Concentration ken_aitch Hi Howard, Thanks for your questions. Without any great knowledge of Abhidhamma I can only offer tentative answers. Corrections welcome. ---------------- H: > What is the concentration cetasika that is present in all mindstates? ----------------- Samadhi is the reality that fixes on a single object. Because of samadhi, co-arising citta and cetasikas can experience the present arammana. ------------------------ H: > If it is never absent, what is it to be distinguished from? ------------------------ Sorry, I can't see the relevance in that question. Need there be an "absence" that concentration can be distinguished from? ------------------------------ H: > And what does concentration actually do? ------------------------------ It fixes on a single object, and it is the only thing that performs that function. I added the second part because we all have a tendency to see concentration (etc.) as actually belonging to the conventional world in which people and other beings concentrate. That means we see the teaching of paramattha dhammas merely as a model for understanding the conventional world - rather than the other way around. In reality, there are only dhammas. We can't have too many reminders of that. ------------------------------------------ H: > How does it manifest? ------------------------------------------ I could offer a guess, but I am not really familiar with the meaning of 'manifestation' as it applies to paramattha dhammas. Someone at DSG once explained it especially for me, but I have forgotten. ---------------------------------------------------- H: > During any mindstate, there is but one aramanna. What does the concentration then present actually do? ----------------------------------------------------- It fixes on that single arammana. ------- H: > What would it mean for there to not be any concentration present in a mindstate? ------- Citta always experiences an object. If there were no samadhi, citta could not experience anything. There would be no experience, no citta. ----------------- H: > As I see it, concentration is an activity, that is, when manifested, is an operation that spans mindstates and makes sense with respect to a single mindstate only as an *inclination*. ----------------- That doesn't sound right to me. It is better to understand a citta as being the entire universe. All ultimately real activities, or functions, must take place within that citta. ------------------------------------------ H: > I understand the ekagatta cetasika as being the tendency or potetial or "impulsion" for the current object-content to repeat in subsequent mindstates, with such repetition being the manifestation of the one-pointedness. ------------------------------------------ I am sure there are several factors that determine what will be the next citta to arise. I believe jhana concentration entails a continuous flow of mind-door cittas, all with the same nimitta as object and with no interruptions from bhavanga cittas or from sense- door cittas. Is samadhi cetasika a major conditioning agent for that? I don't know, but I think change of lineage (as mentioned by Jon recently) might be the major player. When it comes to concentration on sense objects, the matter is more clear-cut. The choice of object depends on past kamma, not on recent concentration. ------------------------------------------------------ H: > The stronger that momentary ekagatta cetasika is, the more certain and the more extended in time will be the repetition of "the same" object in subsequent mindstates. When the mind jumps around from object to object frequently with change of mindstate, concentration is weak. The more frequent the jumping, the weaker the concentration. The less frequent, the greater the "focus". ------------------------------------------- I can see the sense in that. However, I don't think that sort of explanation helps us very much. It unavoidably entails the notion of a continuous world rather than a momentary world. A continuous world has continuous objects and continuous beings. --------------- H: > BTW, this post is study-oriented, not dispute-oriented, just in case anyone is wondering. ;-) ---------------- I am sure the thought has never entered our heads. :-) Ken H 57664 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello - moving to the second temple sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah > > > ***** > > AN, Bk of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS) > > > > "Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What > four? > > > > He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= > > sankhepa~n~nu]: > > > > he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= > > vitthaarita~n~nu]: <..> > M: Thank you for that. Yes, this is what I meant. uggha.tita~n~nu - > the buddha didnt say what that is. .... S: according to Netti, uggha.teti = to condense, uggha.tita = condensed Netti 41 "Herein, the Blessed One teaches escape to a person who gains knowledge by what is condensed..." I think we only have to think of Sariputta as an example of someone who gained knowledge by just a few words (and also the Abhidhamma from a summary). By contrast, most of us need to hear the full details and then are slow to really comprehend what they mean.... Metta, Sarah ======== 57665 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat sarahprocter... Hi Eric, Good to see you back and thank you for recounting your experiences at the retreat. --- ericlonline wrote: > Indeed, and that whole experience > is another story in itself!! But > I also got a taste of this in > Qigong. There are some forms where > you gather the qi and compact it. > The piti was apparent there as well. .... >So, while on retreat and trying to get the >piti to grow, I separated my hands about >6 inches and turned them towards each other. >This made the piti grow. Sort of like a >convection oven. .... S: So do you see the piti as a tactile object/sensation rather than as a mental quality? Is the continued experience of such sensations the path to jhana as you see it? Are Qigong, reiki and other healing practioners who have such experiences realizing jhanas as you understand the term? Is this how you understand jhana as used by the Buddha? What do you understand to be the meaning of jhana? Sorry for so many questions.... Metta, Sarah ======== 57666 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. sarahprocter... Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > At Durroseille´s Pali Grammar, the author states that the Pali on > the Commentaries is slightly different of the original Tipitaka: more > baroque, exquisite, departing from the dry and direct style of the > older texts. A signal of decadence ? Is there a real decadence > reflected on the more elaborate co.´s style ? .... S: Don't we all have our own styles here? Aren't our styles of speaking and writing different from those of our parents and grandparents too? Doesn't new vocabulary creep in all the time? I mean, Ic, your style must be pretty unique, but I don't think it's the wording as such which is any indication of decadence. As we read in the Atthasalini, the words and styles of the great arahants are still 'Buddha vacana' because they still convey the correct meaning. Metta, Sarah ========= 57667 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 10:46pm Subject: Sequential Substitution ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to gradually exchange gross Feeling with fine Feeling? There are 6 kinds of Feeling: Feeling born of eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact and mind-contact. 1: One exchanges these 6 kinds of gladness (mental pleasurable feeling) of the lay householder with the 6 kinds of gladness of the Noble life... 2: One then exchanges the 6 kinds of sadness (mental painful feeling) of the lay householder with the 6 kinds of sadness of the Noble life... 3: One then exchanges the 6 kinds of indifference (mental neutral feeling) of the lay householder with the 6 kinds of equanimity of the Noble life... 4: One exchanges the 6 Noble sadnesses with the 6 kinds of Noble gladness... 5: One exchanges the 6 Noble gladnesses with the 6 kinds of Noble equanimity... 6: One then exchanges the 6 kinds of Noble equanimity based on diversity, with the one single Noble equanimity based on Unity... 7: One exchanges the Noble equanimity based on Unity with Non-identification... Source text: MN 137. The Moderate Speeches of the Buddha: Majjhima Nikaya 137. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57668 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Apr 9, 2006 11:40pm Subject: Re: The 108 Feelings & The 3 Cravings ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend Tep asks: Question: Is there a one-to-one correspondence between the 108 feelings and the 108 cravings? If not, then why not? FEELING leads to CRAVING yes, yet: Craving is better classified and more practically handled by: 1: Craving for sensing this and that object. 2: Craving for becoming into a given new state: (rich, happy, young etc.) 3: Craving for not becoming into certain new states: (may I not die, be sick, old etc.) Note that the craving is directed towards contact with the _sensed object_, and not consciously directed towards the _feeling_ that this contact induce, though that feeling actually is what initially produce the craving ... !!! -- Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 57670 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 0:58am Subject: Re: James' Long Response buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Dear James and Tep, > > > James: I don't think so. ... [snip] two terms can be used > > interchangeably when the sutta isn't designed to be precise in that > > regard. > > > ... > c: how do we tell? > I'm not so sure that it's terribly important to know which term should be used in a sutta. First there is craving, and a stronger form of craving is clinging. I think of craving as more momentary: craving for delightful sounds, sights, smells, etc. I think of clinging as more long term: clinging to views, doctrine of self, etc. I could be wrong about this- this is just how I separate them in my mind. Metta, James 57671 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. buddhatrue Nina and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina and Tep, > > Both of your recent posts absolutely disgust me: > I apologize for this post. I didn't have a skillful state of mind when I wrote it. Sometimes I wish that my laptop could have a little apparatus, like a lie detector, which could determine if I am in the proper state of mind or not to write a post. If I wasn't in the proper state of mind- my computer wouldn't work! I need the same type of thing for my cell phone due to text messages. ;-)) I was disappointed by your posts because they seem to gloss over the important matters we were discussing- but that is no excuse for me to get psycho over it. Perhaps what I deem to be important isn't important at all- only time will tell. Metta, James 57672 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:11am Subject: [dsg] James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) buddhatrue Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi James, > > Regarding the source of self view, in Vism. self view (idea) is one of > the four kinds of clinging (sensuous, rules and rituals, views, and self > view) and this follows craving. Psychologically, we could say self view > (who I am) is a matter of what is appropriated or cultivated. Usually we > appropriate quite a few negative characteristics as me or mine but this > appropriation is regarded as desire based. I think this is because the > concept of me and mine is fundamentally needy. > > However, conceit is a deeper sense of self. Its proximate cause is greed > _dissociated_ from views. So I guess that means conceit is a form of > sensuous clinging (mental object clinging?). One way to understand this > is that craving/greed is a basic dualistic split. Hence the sense of > internal and external, self and other and comparisons. This in itself > seems like a bit of a view to me so I think what is intended is a sense > of duality or separation unelaborated by views. Basically fear. > > Larry > Thank you for your response. I appears that you agree with me that self-view arises from clinging, and you use the Vism. as support. Am I understanding you? Metta, James 57673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) nilovg Hi Larry, Conceit arises even in aruupa brahma planes where there are no sense objects, no ruupas. But there conceit is more refined. Nina. op 10-04-2006 01:37 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > However, conceit is a deeper sense of self. Its proximate cause is greed > _dissociated_ from views. So I guess that means conceit is a form of > sensuous clinging (mental object clinging?). 57674 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. nilovg Hallo Joop, op 05-04-2006 23:34 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: > > > Joop: In fact you added a fourth example of my statement: as far as I > know there is nowhere in the Suttas talked about different kind of > arahats as you footnoted. I think lovers of hierarchy have added this > idea. ---- N: Gradual Sayings Book of the Fours, Ch 18, § 3, Ang II, 159, Analysis): sutta about the four Pa.tisambhidas of Saariputta: '...when I six months had been ordained a monk, I grasped the analysis of meanings (N: attha patisambidha, the first one). That I explain in various ways, I teach it, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse it and make it clear...' And so on with the other three: of dhammas, of definitions (nirutti), of knowledge (pa.ti bhana). See Nyanatiloka Dict.for definitions. ------- J: > And how you can say that changing 500 years in 5000 years is only > giving more details and explanations? ------- N: The 5000 pertains to the time of a former Buddha, Buddha Kassapa. This is mentioned in the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III, no 28, The Faith that satisfied. But it is meaningful that the Buddha Gotama spoke about this, as a warning, that the sasana declines. ------- J: > > Joop: That commentary not just gave it a name; he also decided that > is was not one of the rupas already mentioned in the Dhammasangani; > he also decided that the base was the heart. Why not the knee or the > brains? Did the Buddha already say the base is the heart? I don't > think so ----- N: In the Patthana book of the Abhidhamma (on Condiitons): 'that ruupa'. It does not matter that this was not mentioned in the list of the Dsg. it is mentioned in the last book of the Abhidhamma. In the West people think of brains, but in India: rather the heart. But it is enough to know: cittas do not arise outside the body, they are bound up with the body. Seeing has the eyebase as physical base, but the other cittas, apart from the sense-cognitions also need a physical base. You can call it anything, but it is a kind of ruupa, produced by kamma ------- J: - don't you think the Buddha sasana exists of a mixture of a core, being of all times (ultimate), and a external part, a conceptual language necessary to express this core? ------ N: Yes. ------ J: - don't you think that anything of the Buddha sasana can be interpreted on different ways, for example a more literal way OR a more metaphorical way ? ------ N: Yes, people interprete in different ways. We are far away from the Buddha's time and that is why I listen to the ancient Commentaries. Above all, we have to verify the teachings by comparing the different parts of the Tipitaka and especially by the practice, by developing understanding of realities. ------- J: - don't you think this interpretation had to change when people try to understand and realize the Buddha sasana but live in another time and another culture? ------ N: BTW I appreciate your post on Kh Sujin, well written. The foundation board has only lay members. But monks come to the foundation and listen to Kh Sujin, and they take books that are at the foundation. Your last sentence is meaningful and can answer this question about changing interpretation: Yes, in the ultimate sense there are no persons. We have to go to the essence of things. As we read in a sutta: there are three things that cause trouble in the world: greed, hatred and delusion. This is for all times. Akusala is always akusala, its quality cannot be changed, even when we give it another name. Kusala is always kusala. its quality cannot be changed. Paramattha dhammas are for all times, they have characteristics that cannot be changed. The Buddha's exhortations to develop all kinds of kusala and understanding is for all times. Mettaa is for all times. I know you have doubts about monkhood in the West, but I think it has relevance for all times. Do you remember Kom's posts, and the reasons for the Vinaya given in the texts he quoted? Nina. 57675 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. nilovg Hi James, Don't worry James, I took it the right way and remembered the circumstances you are in right now. The only thing that was in my mind was: I wanted to give a little help I saw as a preparation for the D.O. Larry and I are busy with the Visuddhimagga about the D.O. and before continuing with it, there are now lots of studies about the different relations beteen realities as a preparation for the D.o. itself. Also the previous chapters were about the five khandhas, that is citta and all the details about the mental factors that accompany it. Nina. op 10-04-2006 10:08 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > > I apologize for this post. 57676 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply; food for thought. I quoted Nina below: "Samaadhi, concentration arises with each citta, it may be kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya. Its function is focussing on one object. Right concentration of the eightfold Path develops together with right understanding of the eightfold Path and, when the Path is still mundane, it focusses on a nama or rupa, on one object at a time. We do not have to try to focus, as right understanding develops also right concentration, right effort, and the other factors perform their functions already." H: "This developing of even mundane right concentration doesn't happen for all folks who have 'right [mundane] understanding of the eightfold Path,' does it? The world over, there are people who deeply and intensively study the Buddhadhamma. How many such folks develop path factors, even at a primitive, mundane level, by study alone? And why should they? Is that the practice that the Buddha gave: 'Merely study my words'?" Quite true. I think that you are correct to note that study alone is possibly insufficient for people nowadays to develop path factors. In the time of the Buddha, it seemed, one became enlightened by just hearing. I gather those days are gone. I suppose that it might be possible for some. One aspect of this that I am learning within this group seems to be related to "accumulations." I don't know what you think of this concept, but that is sort of secondary to this particular discussion, at least for now. H: "Now, it seems that this quoted material gives one condition only for right concentration, namely right understanding. Is that so? A single causal condition? And what is it that leads to right understanding. Is nothing but listening to reports of the "truth" needed? Where did the Buddha say that? Where did he teach that his Dhamma is a species of what we call jnana yoga in the stepped-down sense of repeatedly contemplating true teachings? And if that was his assertion, why did he teach for 45 years about guarding the senses and restricting one's behavior, cultivating jhana, and carefully attending to whatever arises from a stable base of internal silence and calm?" I think that my aim in eliciting the above noted reply was to consider the oft mentioned (here) idea that one cannot, by sheer dint of will (is "dint of will" even English?} cause even one aspect of anything to arise. I don't see the quote as limiting things to only one cause, rather I understand Nina to have said (or my question had me focusing on) that concentration, for example, arises with each citta and that "we don't have to try" to constrain its arising. I understood the quote in a context of considering the concentration necessary to be able to observe the rising and falling away of dhammas. For example, and please set me straight if I've missed this point, I understand that when concentration arises to a certain point in the practise of satipatthana that this is of the equivalent strength of that concentration which leads into the first jhaana. At any rate, do you see that my question was regarding the place of "will" in any process and is about anatta, really (I guess). H: "Studying the Dhamma is an essential element of the practice. It is a planting of vital seeds. But the seeds won't bear proper fruit unless the field is properly tilled and cultivated. We can contemplate the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada deeply and repeatedly, but if those seeds are planted on rock and not in fertile, cultivated soil, to paraphrase a teaching of an old-time Hebrew, they will not bear fruit." True, true. Sincerely, Scott 57677 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:32am Subject: Re: James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. indriyabala Dear James (and Nina, Sarah, Connie) - Nina was right to say, "don't worry about it". To avoid typing something that we may regret later on is to follow Sarah's advice : type it on a notepad first, read it over and edit it, then send it. {:>) Yes. The topic we have been discussing is important. Connie's question helps keep the discussion alive. Thanks to her. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Nina and Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Hi Nina and Tep, > > > > Both of your recent posts absolutely disgust me: (snipped) > > I was disappointed by your posts because they seem to gloss over the > important matters we were discussing- but that is no excuse for me > to get psycho over it. Perhaps what I deem to be important isn't > important at all- only time will tell. > > Metta, > James > 57678 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:40am Subject: Re: The 108 Feelings & The 3 Cravings ... !!! indriyabala Dear Ven. Samahita - I really like your kind reply -- it is clear and very helpful. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > > Friend Tep asks: > > Question: Is there a one-to-one correspondence between the 108 > feelings and the 108 cravings? If not, then why not? > > FEELING leads to CRAVING yes, yet: > > Craving is better classified and more practically handled by: > > 1: Craving for sensing this and that object. > 2: Craving for becoming into a given new state: (rich, happy, young etc.) > 3: Craving for not becoming into certain new states: (may I not die, be sick, old etc.) > > Note that the craving is directed towards contact with the _sensed object_, and not consciously directed towards the _feeling_ that this contact induce, though that feeling actually is what initially produce the craving ... !!! > Tep: Thank you for shining a light on such a complex, nonlinear dynamical process. It is very interesting that feeling acts only as the medium. Respectfully, Tep ========= 57679 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:12am Subject: Re: Please help jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > .... lol... the grandchildren > do not always fall under the category of 'beloved'! best wishes to your > wife, too. happy anniversary (whenever!). > peace, > connie > Dear Connie (and all, interested in rafts) You wrote: "... the grandchildren do not always fall under the category of 'beloved'! best wishes to your wife, too. happy anniversary (whenever!)." For the reason of these beautiful words (and because I understood more than the half of what you wrote) I opened with a "Dear Connie", I'm frugal with using that term. Your words sound as a definitive good bye to me, and we should every moment again say goodbye for ever to others and ourself. But the main reason for my message is your remark: "i think if we call the teachings of our lord 'theory', we are in deeper trouble than we really care to know." Yes I called and call the Abhidhamma, for example as explained in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (especially the explanatory guide by Bhikkhu Bodhi) a theory. Even when I know that it's BASED on 'the teachings of our lord'; 'based' it's composed after the parinibbana of the Buddha and made more scholastic then the language He used. The term 'theory' is not meant negative at all. I sincerely think we cannot know the 'truth' as such, all we can do is make a image of it in our mind, an image or, the most powerfull word: a theory. A theory is a kind of picture of the truth, seen with a particular purpose. That why I call Abhidhamma a superior theory. And the purpose is, as which the Teaching of the Buddha only a soteriological one, to awaken us, to liberate us, to enlighten us or however this is expressed: to erase desire, hatred and delusion. I think I understand you don't like the term 'theory': because it puts Abhidhamma on the same level as the Big Bang theory and the Evolutionary theory (my other favorite ones) Well, to do you a favour, then from now on I say: Abhidhamma is - as an image of the truth - a RAFT. And what do we do with a raft, when we are at the other shore? As the Buddha said: we leave it. OK, next question: when can we leave the raft? I not yet but I'm prepared every moment to leave it. Another term, especially used is: UPAYA, most times translated as 'skillful means'; or 'skill in means'; most times explained with the metaphor of "different medicines for different diseases". I thought long times that it was only a sankrit word and was used only in Mahayana, but now I know it's Pali too, and because it's Pali it has a function in Theravada, isn't it? The disease/medicine metaphor also seems to have a precursor in the Pali simile of the arrow (which, like mental suffering, the Buddha removes rather than responding to the useless questions of the patient, like metaphysical questions). Isn't the myth about the Abhidhamma texts that the Buddha recited them to his late mother and other heavenly creatures, because human beings could only understand the discursive language of the Suttas? So my conclusion: Abhidhamma is (for me): a theory for awakening = a raft = an upaya Always open to comments Metta Joop 57680 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Tep) - In a message dated 4/10/06 1:58:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > >Tep : Please allow me to use questions to initiate a discussion. > > > >1. The neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is neutral -- it does not > >make a person joyful or sad or unhappy: it is just like nothing. Then > >why does one "seek delight" in it? I wouldn't. > .... > S: It seems mad and yet there is attachment arising even when there's no > pleasant feeling throughout the day. It gives an indication of how subtle > attachment can be and even this ordinary attachment to sense experiences > such as seeing and hearing (only ever accompanied by neutral feeling), has > to be known. There is clinging to life and to continuing to experience > these sense experiences with or without any wrong views arising. Even when > we think about familiar concepts about what has been seen and heard, it's > often with neutral feeling and we have no idea about the attachment. > ======================= There occurs to me a category of very natural, very common, cases of attachment to neutral feeling: I think of persons whose lives are largely ones of near-unrelenting and extreme difficulty, involving for example ongoing serious illness, pain, poverty, disappointment, and loss. Such people, some quite Job-like, others simply among the masses of impoverished humankind, have at times experienced a respite from their distress or seen others without such distress, and, in the midst of their near-constant woe, while thinking little of the possibility of actual pleasure and joy, do crave and cling to the slightest possibility of merely neutral feeling, feeling which for them would be like finding an oasis in the midst of a burning desert. These are people very strongly attached to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, I would say, and understandably so. In a way, people who sail across samsara in a boat of distress such as I described above are in a position to appreciate the release of nibbana better than most of us, for their occasional respite/release from suffering gives a clearer foretaste of liberation than any of us are likely to experience. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57681 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - I address only the one part of your post on which we possibly differ. In a message dated 4/10/06 6:31:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > I think that my aim in eliciting the above noted reply was to consider > the oft mentioned (here) idea that one cannot, by sheer dint of will > (is "dint of will" even English?} cause even one aspect of anything to > arise. ====================== First, yes I DO think that's English! ;-) This business of what will can condition is a subtle matter, depending very much on exactly what one means. If one thinks about it, I think one can easily see that much is a accomplished by dint of will, though never by that alone - never by *sheer* will. , in concert with other conditions, will can even create rupas. Will is prominently among the multitude of conditions that create the rupas of earth and air underlying the conventional motion and contact of my fingers as they they type this post, for example. But you are correct, I think, in evaluating the issue of volitional influence as at least part of the aim in Nina's writing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57682 From: Daniel Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:15am Subject: Conventional and ultimate truth daniell@... Hi there. Just wanted to ask if the terms "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate truth" are used by Theravada? How does one say them in Pali? Have a good day... 57683 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, Tep wrote in another thread: >To avoid typing something that we may regret later on is to follow Sarah's advice : type it on a notepad first, read it over and edit it, then send it. {:>)< .... S: Yes, I can give good advice but I very seldom follow it myself:< --- sarah abbott wrote: > Like now, if the feeling isn't pleasant or unpleasant, it's unpleasant. > Very, very common....and so is the attachment slipping in... .... This should of course said: > Like now, if the feeling isn't pleasant or unpleasant, it's neutral, (neither pleasant-nor-unpleasant). Very, very common....and so is the >attachment slipping in... .... I must 'read it over and edit it, then send it', I must 'read it over and edit it, then send it'.....Ah, well... Metta, Sarah ======= 57684 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Concentration nilovg Hi Ken H and Howard, there is wrong concentration (with akusala citta), micchaasamaadhi, and right concentration, sammaasamaadhi. There are many levels of sammaasamaadhi. The Expositor which defines concentration, deals with sammaa-samaadhi and gives as manifestation: peace of mind or knowledge. 'For it has been said:'He who is concentrated knows, sees according to truth.' Nina op 10-04-2006 08:56 schreef ken_aitch op ken_aitch@...: > H: > How does it manifest? > ------------------------------------------ > > I could offer a guess, but I am not really familiar with the meaning > of 'manifestation' as it applies to paramattha dhammas. Someone at > DSG once explained it especially for me, but I have forgotten. 57685 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Three Suttas about Atta .attaanudi.t.thi. nilovg Hi Sarah, attaanudi.t.thi: it includes sakkaayadi.t.thi but also other kinds of wrong view. Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, p. 478, soul view: as sakkaayaditthi . Dispeller, p. 258: Micchaadi.t.thi is mentioned here and this comprises more types of wrong view, such as eternity view, annihilation view. Under upaadana we find also: there is no fruit and result of bad deeds. You mentioned a dhamma outside, I remember that she explained about taking this also for self, meaning, not seeing that it is impermanent, dukkha, non-self. This is wider than sakkaayadit.t.hi, but sakkaayadi.t.thi is included in what she called attaanudi.t.thi. Perhaps different terms are used in different parts of the teachings. Nina. op 10-04-2006 08:46 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I may have been (and may still be!) confused by a > term K.Sujin often uses - 'attanuditthi' which she stresses repeatedly as > being wider in meaning than sakkaaya ditthi, eg including ideas of > permanence of objects not related to these five khandhas - eg, the > permanence of a rock, nothing to do with self-view. 57686 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. nimitta, nibbaana. nilovg op 09-04-2006 17:57 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...: Dear Scott, > Scott: In the PED I read where "nimitta" is given as: "outward appearance, > mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon." ------ N: We are used to expressions such as attchment to the outward appearance of things, to the signs of men and women, etc. That is thinking of the appearance of people and things as a whole. But now we learn another meaning: there is a nimitta or sign of each naama and ruupa that arises and appears and then falls away. A more refined understanding of nimitta. Sankhaara nimitta, nimitta of all condiitoned dhammas that arise and fall away. Nimitta of ruupakkhandha, of feeling khandha, of saññaa-khandha, etc. ------ S: Also, > you mention sa.n.na below, and since sa.n.na marks the object I am > curious as to its role in this process of "nimitta formation." ------ N: I am not inclined to speak of a process of nimitta formation. Nimitta just reminds us that dhammas arise and fall away immediately, even though it seems that they last for a while. Also saññaa itself has a nimitta. ------- S: The PED also notes "mental relfex" as definition. This reminds me of > the old perceptual thing which I believe is referred to as an "eidetic > image." Look at the flame of a candle momentarily... ------ N: I know what you mean. This happens when someone looks for a long time on a kasina. This is another meaning of nimitta, as used in Samatha. ---------- S:I find that recalling that all that I think I > experience is actually nothing but the ghosts of experience is very > helpful in maintaining mindfulness. ------ N: The Commentary says: shadows of realities. It can lead to slightly more detachment from taking what we experience as so important. I hesitate about: maintaining mindfulness. Intellectual understanding of naama and ruupa grows, but if we think of maintaining mindfulness... Kh Sujin would say: who is aware. I answered: awareness is aware. She retorted: that is in the book. True, I did not really grasp what I was saying, realizing sati as only a conditioned naama, not mine. ------ S: I still find aspects of this hard to understand. The object > experienced, in this case nibbaana, has no nimitta yet the experience > of nibbaana falls under the auspices of the reviewing pa.n.na. Is it > that the reviewing pa.n.na "reviews" the nimitta of lokuttara citta? > I think this is a function of sa.n.na which marks the mahaa-kusula > citta. ------ N: We can say: lokuttara cittas experience nibbaana and after that there are reviewing cittas. These are arising in several processes, in each of these one object is experienced: such as: defilements remaining, etc. Why should we know now, it is too far away. I do not know what exactly happens, I just read about it. One thing we learnt: what arises and falls away has a nimitta, citta has a nimitta. I would rather emphasize paññaa in the case of reviewing, not saññaa. But as said, this is too difficult for me to understand. Nina. 57687 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:44am Subject: Marisa's questions. Lessons in Dhamma, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Here follows what I began to write for the book dedicated to Acharn Sujin and which I combine with my answer to Marisa's questions. --------- Lessons in Dhamma, no. 1. When I met Acharn Sujin more than forty years ago, she taught me Abhidhamma and this changed my life. From the very beginning I learnt that the Abhidhamma is not theory but that it pertains to our life at this moment. I learnt about citta, consciousness, cetasikas, mental factors arising with the citta and ruupa, physical phenomena. Seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions are different cittas that experience objects through the eyesense, the earsense and through the other senses and the mind-door. The sense-cognitions are results of kamma, they are vipaakacittas. Depending on kamma we see, hear and experience through the other senses desirable and undesirable objects. Our reactions to such experiences are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Acharn Sujin helped me to see what is akusala and what is kusala in the different circumstances of daily life. She often said, the teachings are ³not in the book², they are directed to the practice of everyday life. Also the Abhidhamma is not technical, it helps us to have a more refined and detailed knowledge of different cittas as they occur at this moment. When I said that I had enjoyed reading a beautiful sutta, she answered, ²It is so sad when we only think of what is in the book, when we do not apply it.² I realized that we may cling to what we read instead of seeing it as a reminder to develop understanding at this moment. Citta, cetasika and rupa are ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas. They arise and then fall away immediately. Paramattha dhammas are different from concepts of people and things we think of, but which do not have characteristics that can be directly experienced, one at a time, through one of the six doors. She often repeats: everything is dhamma, but she said that it takes a long time before we really understand this. Whatever appears through one of the six doors, has conditions for its arising and it is not self or mine. Akusala citta with attachment or aversion may arise, and we do not like akusala. However, it does not belong to us, it is dhamma. Realizing that everything is dhamma and that persons are not ultimate realities, does not mean that we do not care about people. We learn that in the ultimate sense there are only nåma and rúpa, that there are no people, no things. This does not mean that we should not think of people and things. Also thinking of concepts is part of our daily life, we could not function without thinking of concepts. Thinking is a conditioned reality, it is nåma, not self. We can think with different types of citta, some are kusala and many are akusala. ***** Nina. 57688 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:54am Subject: Re: James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > > Dear James (and Nina, Sarah, Connie) - > > Nina was right to say, "don't worry about it". > > To avoid typing something that we may regret later on is to follow > Sarah's advice : type it on a notepad first, read it over and edit it, > then send it. {:>) James: That's good advice but not very practical. If I had enough sense to do that (type in notepad first, read it over and edit it) in the first place, then it would be unlikely that I would write such overly emotional posts. I don't have enough sense to do that, and I don't have enough sense to remain constantly as cool as a cucumber. Really, I have had it with myself! I think I'm about to go off the deep end- I have more stress in my life right now than I can handle. As my father would say, "You don't know your as* from a hole in the ground!" ;-)) > > Yes. The topic we have been discussing is important. Connie's question > helps keep the discussion alive. Thanks to her. James: How does it keep the discussion alive? What about that question struck your fancy? Why didn't you respond? > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ====== Metta, James 57689 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response ignorance and clinging. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Don't worry James, I took it the right way and remembered the circumstances > you are in right now. James: Thanks. My circumstances are driving me absolutely batty right now! I don't know if I should meditate, go get drunk, or slit my throat with a butcher knife. ;-) > The only thing that was in my mind was: I wanted to give a little help I saw > as a preparation for the D.O. James: So that means you consider yourself an expert on D.O.: Do you really? Frankly and honestly, I haven't seen you demonstrate an expertise on D.O. You seem to be too overly preoccupied with anatta to have a firm grasp on D.O. You often sound like a one song record, and how can a one song record completely comprehend 12 aspects which are complex and continually interrelated. > Larry and I are busy with the Visuddhimagga about the D.O. and before > continuing with it, there are now lots of studies about the different > relations beteen realities as a preparation for the D.o. itself. James: D.O. is complicated enough- trying to comprehend D.O. in terms of the Abhidhamma is damn near impossible! I think you expect too much. Also the > previous chapters were about the five khandhas, that is citta and all the > details about the mental factors that accompany it. James: I wish I could used to how you put extraneous information into your posts- but I just can't seem to get used to that. It bugs me everytime! I start out my reading by liking your posts, but then I usually end up seeing red from all the extraneous information you include. I guess this is a Thai custom, as you said. No wonder the Thai are always smiling all the time- that's to keep them from punching each other's lights out! ;-)) > Nina. Metta, James 57690 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep & all, > > Tep wrote in another thread: > >To avoid typing something that we may regret later on is to follow > Sarah's advice : type it on a notepad first, read it over and edit it, > then send it. {:>)< > .... > S: Yes, I can give good advice but I very seldom follow it myself:< > James: This is nice to know. I just wrote to Tep before reading your post. I'm glad to know I am not the only one unable to follow your good advice. ;-)) Metta, James 57691 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:38am Subject: Re: Conventional and ultimate truth onco111 Hi Daniel, > Just wanted to ask if the terms "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate > truth" are used by Theravada? How does one say them in Pali? First, there is the term "vohara-sacca", which means 'conventional truth', and the term "sammuti-sacca", which means 'commonly accepted truth'. Buddha often used conventional language (vohara-vacana) to point out deeper truths or "ultimate" realities (ariya-sacca, paramattha-dhamma). It is easy to mistakenly read the vohara-vacana of the Buddha with a conventional understanding and miss the underlying paramattha-dhamma that brings to light the ariya-sacca. This topic is a perennial favorite in dsg--and for good reason. An understanding of the distinction between vohara and paramattha is central to understanding Dhamma. Sincerely, Dan 57692 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The 108 Feelings & The 3 Cravings ... !!! TGrand458@... Dear Ven. Samahita and Tep I have a little different understanding of the three cravings than expressed by Ven Samahita. (However, the more I read Ven. Samahita's explanation, the more I think it is almost the same as what I will say below.) The way I understand the cravings DOES directly correspond to the feelings that generate them. 1) When experiencing a pleasant feeling, the mind craves the "continuance" of that pleasant feeling. 2) When experiencing an unpleasant feeling, the mind craves the "discontinuance" of that unpleasant feeling. 3) When experiencing a neutral feeling, the mind craves "sensual pleasure" due to its natural discontentment (when unenlightened.) I believe it is in particular this last craving that seeks "outer objects/new states." It is more complex than this in that craving for objects (besides just the feelings) is part of the process (as mentioned below). Also, as Howard pointed out recently, a mind that has been experiencing unpleasantness may actually crave the neutral feeling as a relief from unpleasantness. But basically I think the "feelings themselves" need to be seen as the basis and factors that generate craving. Any "outward propagation" (for objects) that cravings associate with need to be seen as a "reflection" of the instigating force that feeling produced. As the mind is so complex and continuously altering, cravings are complex and continuously altering...in relation to feelings/experiences. Ven. Samahita has already drastically improved on the traditional understanding ... which usually states that bhavatanha and vibhavatanha are cravings for rebirth and annihilation respectively. These are only problematic outcomes of craving and do not help the mind see a direct link between feeling and craving. Seeing the "direct link" is key in also seeing the principles of Dependent Origination in action. This topic really needs a whole article, if not book, to do it justice. TG In a message dated 4/10/2006 4:41:14 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Dear Ven. Samahita - I really like your kind reply -- it is clear and very helpful. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > > Friend Tep asks: > > Question: Is there a one-to-one correspondence between the 108 > feelings and the 108 cravings? If not, then why not? > > FEELING leads to CRAVING yes, yet: > > Craving is better classified and more practically handled by: > > 1: Craving for sensing this and that object. > 2: Craving for becoming into a given new state: (rich, happy, young etc.) > 3: Craving for not becoming into certain new states: (may I not die, be sick, old etc.) > > Note that the craving is directed towards contact with the _sensed object_, and not consciously directed towards the _feeling_ that this contact induce, though that feeling actually is what initially produce the craving ... !!! > Tep: Thank you for shining a light on such a complex, nonlinear dynamical process. It is very interesting that feeling acts only as the medium. Respectfully, Tep 57693 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Jon & Scott, > Scott Duncan wrote: > >I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to > >practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I > >have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct > >teachings. > I appreciate what you are saying here, but I would just say that we cannot hasten the process, and any wish to do so is likely to lead us into wrong practice of some form or another. Ever hear of backburning a fire? Ever hear of stepping on a thorn and removing it with 2 thorns and throwing all the thorns away? Both take skill which can be developed. 57694 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. onco111 Hi Howard, I haven't been keeping up with dsg at all, and I'm hope I'm not being rude by butting in here, but one quick comment: > If one thinks about it, I think one can > easily see that much is a accomplished by dint of will... I think you are entirely correct here. The real question is how to distinguish between Samma Will and Miccha Will and what results arise from which kind of Will. Miccha Will cannot bring about understanding of anything paramattha, and Samma Will cannot be conjured, planned, or controlled by conventional means (such as precept or ritual). In a sense, then, Miccha Will has no power, and Samma Will cannot be touched. Metta, Dan 57695 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Sarah, > Good to see you back and thank you for recounting your experiences at the retreat. Thank you! > --- ericlonline wrote: > > Indeed, and that whole experience > > is another story in itself!! But > > I also got a taste of this in > > Qigong. There are some forms where > > you gather the qi and compact it. > > The piti was apparent there as well. > .... > >So, while on retreat and trying to get the > >piti to grow, I separated my hands about > >6 inches and turned them towards each other. > >This made the piti grow. Sort of like a > >convection oven. > .... > S: So do you see the piti as a tactile object/sensation rather than as a mental quality? It is mainly a physical sensation associated with the nervous systems functioning. But awareness makes everything 'mental' i.e. everything happens with mind. > Is the continued experience of such sensations the path to jhana as you see it? Piti with a hindrance free awareness accompanied with the other jhana factors causes jhana to arise. Prior to that, a whole bunch of other factors come into play i.e. sila, etc. >Are Qigong, reiki and other healing practioners who have such > experiences realizing jhanas as you understand the term? The point I was making to James in this regard was that doing breath meditation coupled with my previous experiences with feeling piti in my hands allowed jhana to arise. Most breath meditators are not aware of this piti for a few reasons. 1) their concentration is not strong enough i.e. their mind is hindered 2) they are not instructed to look for it. Because I can muster up good enough concentration and I had felt this piti before, off cushion, it was easy and startling to see it once instructed. Then it was a matter of pervading this piti throughout the body. If other practioners have a unhindered awareness and can muster up the other jhana factors then they too would be realizing jhana. The Buddha experienced this 'spontaneoulsly' as a child while watching a plowing festival I believe. > Is this how you understand jhana as used by the Buddha? What do you > understand to be the meaning of jhana? Jhana is a unhindered awareness that is concentrated to a degree where absorption into an object of meditation is made possible. Meaning depends on context. So I dont know what you are asking in the second question. > Sorry for so many questions.... My pleasure. > Metta, Metta 57696 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:44am Subject: Re: Conventional and ultimate truth ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Daniel wrote: Hi Daniel, > Hi there. Just wanted to ask if the terms "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate > truth" are used by Theravada? How does one say them in Pali? Have a good > day... > Ultimate truth > Nibbana Conventional truth > Everything else 57697 From: "ericlonline" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:51am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. ericlonline --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: Hi Tep, > Eric, after reading your reply to Sarah, I felt as if we had graduated from the same school on jhana. Have you been formally trained? Where? How did you find your way to this place where it seems many are involved in looking for the end of dukkha in their fathom long bookcase? :-) Do you belong to any other online groups that are more practice oriented? 57698 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" .concentration. upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 4/10/06 12:05:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I haven't been keeping up with dsg at all, and I'm hope I'm not being > rude by butting in here, but one quick comment: > > >If one thinks about it, I think one can > >easily see that much is a accomplished by dint of will... > > I think you are entirely correct here. The real question is how to > distinguish between Samma Will and Miccha Will and what results arise > from which kind of Will. Miccha Will cannot bring about understanding > of anything paramattha, and Samma Will cannot be conjured, planned, or > controlled by conventional means (such as precept or ritual). > -------------------------------------- Howard: It's on this latter point that we probably differ. We all begin with a seriously defiled mentality, and close to all our mental states are quite imperfect. But useful willed actions can still be performed, leading the mind to slightly less defiled status, so that step by step we are in a better and better position. If this were not so our situation would be hopeless. ------------------------------------ In a > > sense, then, Miccha Will has no power, and Samma Will cannot be touched. -------------------------------------- Howard: The precise meaning of this is unclear to me, but what is clear to me is that the Buddha repeatedly taught his followers to engage in useful, volitional, conventional activities with the goal of purifying the mind. -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Dan > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57699 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:59pm Subject: Re: The 108 Feelings & The 3 Cravings ... !!! indriyabala Hi TG (Attn. Ven. Samahita) - It was refreshing for me to read your comments on feeling, craving and their inter-related complex process. When I said to Bhante that his post shone " a light" on this subject, I meant that more than one ray of light was needed due to the complex nature of the dynamic process. I think your post shone another ray of light as well. >TG: >When experiencing a pleasant feeling, the mind craves the "continuance" of that pleasant feeling. ... When experiencing a neutral feeling, the mind craves "sensual pleasure" due to its natural discontentment (when unenlightened.) I believe it is in particular this last craving that seeks "outer objects/new states." T: It is not easy to separate the object from the feeling that arises from the contact. Say, while eating a great cheesecake, the mind craves for the "continuance of the pleasant feeling" that, in turn, depends on the cheesecake in the mouth. Now a few days later, saññaa of the pleasant feeling (that has already dissolved) may drive the mind to crave for another cheesecake, and this is the situation you said about the craving that sought "outer objects/new states.", I guess. >TG: >This topic really needs a whole article, if not book, to do it justice. Agreed! Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > Dear Ven. Samahita and Tep > > I have a little different understanding of the three cravings than expressed > by Ven Samahita. (However, the more I read Ven. Samahita's explanation, the > more I think it is almost the same as what I will say below.) The way I > understand the cravings DOES directly correspond to the feelings that generate > them. > (snipped) 57700 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. indriyabala Hi, Friend Eric - I am honored by your asking about my background. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Have you been formally trained? Where? > How did you find your way to this place > where it seems many are involved in > looking for the end of dukkha in their > fathom long bookcase? :-) Do you belong > to any other online groups that are more > practice oriented? > I have not been formally trained - although I spent several nights in 'seclusion' at a few Buddhist temples ("wats") in Thailand over a period of 4 -5 years (back in the 1990's). I was born and lived for over two decades in a house (in Bangkok) that was surrounded by seven Buddhist temples, and I visited them often. I used to seriously study many books written by Thai monks who were highly "capable" in samatha-vipassana. I have a "fathom-long bookcase" filled with those books and the Suttanta-Pitaka. {:>) I came to DSG through Howard's recommendation. I stay on because several DSG's members are highly active and highly knowledgable in Theravada Buddhism. I also belong to two other online groups: SariputtaDhamma@yahoogroups.com http://groups.msn.com/Vipassana Sincerely, Tep ====== 57701 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta indriyabala Hi James and Sarah - I think Sarah was modest when she wrote : > > S: Yes, I can give good advice but I very seldom follow it myself :< > > Tep: I know Sarah can do it, because it is far less difficult than trying to keep the Five Precepts !! {:>) .............. > James: This is nice to know. I just wrote to Tep before reading > your post. I'm glad to know I am not the only one unable to follow > your good advice. ;-)) > Tep: First, just make a vow that from now you will never type an email (online) when you are not in a normal, cool mood. After that it is easy. Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi Tep & all, > > > > Tep wrote in another thread: > > >To avoid typing something that we may regret later on is to follow > > Sarah's advice : type it on a notepad first, read it over and edit > it, > > then send it. {:>)< > > .... 57702 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) lbidd2 James: "Thank you for your response. It appears that you agree with me that self-view arises from clinging, and you use the Vism. as support. Am I understanding you?" Hi James, I would say self view is a form of clinging and clinging arises from craving, but maybe that's just a semantic quibble. Thinking an object is mine or thinking an object is part of who I am is a kind of clinging to objects known as self view. For example: when hunger sensations mean 'I'm hungry', that's self view. Larry 57703 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response (Re:what is sati.) lbidd2 Nina: "Hi Larry, Conceit arises even in aruupa brahma planes where there are no sense objects, no ruupas. But there conceit is more refined. Nina. op 10-04-2006 01:37 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: However, conceit is a deeper sense of self. Its proximate cause is greed _dissociated_ from views. So I guess that means conceit is a form of sensuous clinging (mental object clinging?)." Hi Nina, Is the proximate cause of conceit still greed in the aruupa brahma planes? Is there a sense of other? Larry 57704 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta indriyabala Hi, Sarah and Howard (& Matheesha)- Thanks a lot for your nice thoughts in # 57680. > S: It seems mad and yet there is attachment arising even when there's no pleasant feeling throughout the day. It gives an indication of how subtle attachment can be and even this ordinary attachment to sense experiences such as seeing and hearing (only ever accompanied by neutral feeling), has to be known. There is clinging to life and to continuing to experience these sense experiences with or without any wrong views arising. Even when we think about familiar concepts about what has been seen and heard, it's often with neutral feeling and we have no idea about the attachment. > Tep: That writing is beautiful, Sarah. Thank you very much. Because there are so numerous -- almost infinite, uncountable -- neutral feelings, then how can one be precisely aware of the beginning and the end of an interval of neutral feeling? In another post(see #57495) Matheesha told me his way for training (meditation) a skill to do just that. What is your thought on such an exercise/training? > > Matheesha: You must now be aware of the new sound arising, or the new sensation arising. Focus more on the begining/start of each of those new 'experiencings' (phassa). - - - - - > >Can you see each one starting? If you can then start noticing when the vedana (neutral-ness/pleasantness/unpleasantness) begins..[endquote of Matheesha's post] ............ > Howard: > There occurs to me a category of very natural, very common, cases of attachment to neutral feeling: I think of persons whose lives are largely ones of near-unrelenting and extreme difficulty, involving for example ongoing serious illness, pain, poverty, disappointment, and loss. ... Such people ... do crave and cling to the slightest possibility of merely neutral feeling, feeling which for them would be like finding an oasis in the midst of a burning desert. Tep: Good example, Howard. That answers my earlier question ( > >why does one "seek delight" in it? I wouldn't.) Thanks. Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > (snipped) > In a way, people who sail across samsara in a boat of distress such as I described above are in a position to appreciate the release of nibbana better than most of us, for their occasional respite/release from suffering gives a clearer foretaste of liberation than any of us are likely to experience. > 57705 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scottduncan2 Dear Eric, Hi! Cool response. Scott Duncan wrote: "I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct teachings." E: "I appreciate what you are saying here, but I would just say that we cannot hasten the process, and any wish to do so is likely to lead us into wrong practice of some form or another. "Ever hear of backburning a fire? Ever hear of stepping on a thorn and removing it with 2 thorns and throwing all the thorns away? Both take skill which can be developed." Your penultimate point above is what I am concerned about. Being new to all this, my worry that I misunderstand something is great. There are so many points of view and pointers-out-of-points-of-view. Finding "truth" in general is not enough. Finding "truth" in fine is, I guess, the slow process one cannot hasten. I have heard of a backburning fire. Doesn't it extinguish itself? I seek to know this skill of which you speak. Sincerely, Scott. 57706 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:04am Subject: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, > Hallo Nina Thanks for your answers. I'm glad we agree about the dynamical character (my words) of Theravada. There is no need quarelling about minor misunderstandings and disagreements. Only except two points: - "The decline of the sasana." I don't have a really proof for my optimism but I simply don't believe the Indian idea of degeneration of time is correct. Of course living near a Buddha is spiritual inspiring but we have the same chance to awaken then people say 2000 years ago living in North India. - Nina: "I know you have doubts about monkhood in the West" Joop: it's more complicated. It should be good for the continuity of Theravada, (and for the path of monks and nuns living the homeless life), when there are more monasteries in the West too. But my sociological knowledge gives me the guess that there is not much change that this will happen: people are too individualistic to accept the discipline of monastic live. And people - like me - say: it's also possible to go the buddhistic path as a layperson: sometimes orthodoxy is making the difference too big, that only a monk can get arahat while laypersons can only try to get 'merrits' and can only hope to get a better chance after rebirth. That's one of the reasons (you don't like it) that I say the Foundation of mrs Sujin is an example of a lay movement. Yesterday I send a message, directed to Connie (#57679) about "rafts" that has to do with our discussion too; Nina if you have time, then read it; but it is not really a question so no need to answer. BTW Marjo asked me to read her dutch translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (edition Bhikkhu Bodhi) to check for typo's. I like to do it, only with Chapter V (Compendium of the Process-freed) I don't feel at ease: too much content "I don't believe". Marjo and I had some discussions about translation in one dutch word of some Pali-terms (for example khandha, vitakka, vicara, bhavanga, and sekkha); her choice is better don't translate then a long one; while I prefer as less Pali as possible because less Pali means more readers. Metta Joop 57707 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:09am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 420 - mindfulness/sati (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati) Mindfulness, sati, is one of the nineteen sobhana cetasikas which have to arise with each sobhana citta. The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 121) states that the characteristic of mindfulness is “not floating away”. Mindfulness “does not allow the floating away of moral states”, such as the four applications of mindfulness and the other factors leading to enlightenment. Another characteristic of mindfulness the Atthasåliní mentions is “acquiring” or “taking up”(1), that is, acquirement of what is useful and beneficial. Mindfulness, when it arises, “searches well the courses of states, advantageous and disadvantageous: —‘these states are advantageous, those disadvantageous, these states are serviceable, those not serviceable’— and then removes the disadvantageous and takes up the advantageous.” The Atthasåliní then gives another definition of mindfulness: * "… Mindfulness has “not floating away” as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (saññå) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses." * The definition of mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 141) is similar to this definition. *** 1) In Pali: upagaùhanå ***** (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 57708 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:40am Subject: Marisa's questions. Lessons in Dhamma, 2. nilovg Lessons in Dhamma, 2. Dear friends, Acharn Sujin emphasizes the importance of developing the four Brahma Vihaaras, the Divine Abidings, of loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that we often take for kusala citta what is actually akusala citta. We take for pure metta what is selfish affection. We have to learn the characteristic of mettaa as it appears in daily life, when we are in the company of others. Learning about paramattha dhammas is most helpful to understand the different cittas that arise in a day. Without a basic understanding of paramattha dhammas it is not possible to further develop mettaa and the other brahmavihaaras. When we understand that there is no self who can cause the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta, this understanding can lead to detachment, detachment from clinging to an idea of self. People are always wondering how to act in order to have more understanding. Acharn Sujin would stress that we should not think of ourselves, and that we become less selfish by paying more attention to the needs of others. This is a simple advice, but it is very basic. We cling to ourselves all the time, but the aim is detachment from the idea of self. If we are always selfish, how can we become detached? On all the India trips she would speak about the perfections which should be developed together with satipaììhåna. Generosity, loving-kindness (mettå) and patience are essential qualities that should be developed, they are conditions for thinking less of ourselves. I began to understand that there are countless moments of thinking of ourselves. I learnt in the situation of daily life that when kusala citta arises, there is a short moment of detachment. However, very shortly after kusala citta we are likely to cling to an idea of ³my kusala². Generosity is only a perfection if we do not expect anything for ourselves, if it leads to less clinging. The aim of the development of perfections is detachment, eradication of defilements. Acharn Sujin would often remind us of the need to apply the Dhamma in our daily life, reminding us how circumstances change from moment to moment. Each moment is actually a new situation. Each moment is conditioned. Whatever we experience through the senses, be it pleasant or unpleasant is conditioned by kamma. ***** Nina. 57709 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Long Response conceit. nilovg Hi Larry, greed is the translation of lobha; attachment would be better. Conceit is not always comparing yourselves with others. It is clinging to the importance of self, but without wrong view (even the word self is used here). it can be very subtle. Like a smell in washed cloths still present. This is in the Khemaka sutta. Nina. op 11-04-2006 02:12 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > Is the proximate cause of conceit still greed in the aruupa brahma > planes? Is there a sense of other? 57710 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 0:44am Subject: Re:The 3 Feelings & The 3 Cravings ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend TG wisely wrote: >The Ordinary Mind is: >Craving the continuance of any pleasant feeling ... >Craving the discontinuance of any painful feeling ... >Craving the substitution of any neutral with only pleasant feeling >due to its natural discontentment (when unenlightened.) Sadhu! Well seem & well spoken! So how can such monkey mind ever be happy, when it is constantly craving and urging for something else..., and something that always evaporates! Friendship is the Greatest ... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 57711 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:44pm Subject: The 8 Aspects of Feeling ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: These Eight Aspects of Feeling should be well Considered & Understood!!! A certain Bhikkhu once asked the Blessed Buddha: Venerable Sir, 1: What is Feeling? 2: What is the cause of Feeling? 3: What is the way to emergence of Feeling? 4: What is the ceasing of Feeling? 5: What is the way to cease Feeling? 6: What is the satisfaction in Feeling? 7: What is the danger in Feeling? 8: What is the escape from Feeling? There are, Bhikkhu, these three Feelings: 1: Pleasant Feeling, Painful Feeling, & Neither-painful-nor-pleasant Feeling. This is Feeling... 2: Sense Contact is the proximate cause of Feeling... 3: Craving is the way leading to the emergence of Feeling... 4: Ending of contact, ceases Feeling instantly... 5: This Noble Eightfold Way is the way to cease Feeling... 6: The delight and joy of Feeling: This is the satisfaction within Feeling... 7: That Feeling is impermanent, subject to change & suffering: This is the danger in Feeling... 8: The removal & elimination of desire and lust for Feeling: This is the escape from Feeling... Comment: Running after pleasurable feeling like mad robots, beings come to pain & death again & again... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [232-3] section 36: On Feeling: Vedana. A Certain Bhikkhu... 23. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57712 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:commentaries, four persons. nilovg Dear Joop and friends, Perhaps someone can help me where the German translation of the Visuddhimagga can be found? That can help the Dutch translation. If not, I ask on the Pali list. op 11-04-2006 11:04 schreef Joop op jwromeijn@...: Marjo and I had some discussions about translation in one dutch word > of some Pali-terms (for example khandha, vitakka, vicara, bhavanga, > and sekkha); her choice is better don't translate then a long one; > while I prefer as less Pali as possible because less Pali means more > readers. ------ N: I just sent her Survey and asked whether I could see her Dutch transl. of A.D.L. I think best the Pali in brackets. For vitakka etc. she can look at Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 133, khandhas, formations aggregate in German. ------ J: And people - like me - say: it's also possible to go the buddhistic > path as a layperson: sometimes orthodoxy is making the difference too > big, that only a monk can get arahat while laypersons can only try to > get 'merrits' and can only hope to get a better chance after rebirth. -------- N: No, also laypersons can develop insight leading to enlightenment. According to the Commetaries there are no more arahats in this world now. But is it not already difficult enough to become a sotaapanna? Or even to develop understanding right now so that it can grow and develop to direct understanding of realities? -------- J: Yesterday I send a message, directed to Connie (#57679) about "rafts" > that has to do with our discussion too; Nina if you have time, then > read it; but it is not really a question so no need to answer. ------ N: I am not thinking of throwing away the Tipitaka, I still need my raft!I rather think of now than of the far future. ------ J: > BTW Marjo asked me to read her dutch translation of the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha (edition Bhikkhu Bodhi) to check for typo's. I > like to do it, only with Chapter V (Compendium of the Process-freed) > I don't feel at ease: too much content "I don't believe". ----- N: ADL may help clarifying bhavangacittas. You do not have to believe in them, but they may become more understandable. Nina. 57713 From: connie Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:48am Subject: german translations nichiconn Dear Nina and Joop, The Kommentar Literatur at www.palikanon.com/index.html peace, connie Perhaps someone can help me where the German translation of the Visuddhimagga can be found? That can help the Dutch translation. 57714 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat matheesha333 Hi Eric, I find Leigh's methods curious. Wanted to clarify a few things. Does he speak of giving rise to jhana factors one after the other intentionally? Then when they are all present at the same time, this is the begining of the first jhana? I agree with your idea of spreading piti/rapture. Everything the mind focuses on will be tinged with piti -hence the breath as well- breathing in and out with piti; with sukha etc. metta Matheesha 57715 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat.lay jhana matheesha333 The sutta below, where the Buddha names his female lay devotees of distinction, shows development of metta bhavana and jhana practice amongst them. "Bhikkhus, out of my lay female disciples the first to take the three refuges is Sujàta the daughter of Seniya. Visakhà the mother of Migàra is the foremost female devotee. Kujjuttarà the most learned. Samawathie for developing loving kindness.. Uttaranandamàtà for jhanas. " http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/014-Etadaggapali-e.htm 57716 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta matheesha333 Hi Tep, > ............ > > > Howard: > > There occurs to me a category of very natural, very common, > cases of attachment to neutral feeling: I think of persons whose lives > are largely ones of near-unrelenting and extreme difficulty, involving > for example ongoing serious illness, pain, poverty, disappointment, > and loss. ... Such people ... do crave and cling to the slightest > possibility of merely neutral feeling, feeling which for them would be > like finding an oasis in the midst of a burning desert. > > Tep: Good example, Howard. That answers my earlier question ( > >why > does one "seek delight" in it? I wouldn't.) Thanks. > M: We musnt forget that vedana isnt a fixed reponse to a given situation. Eating chocalate is pleasant vedana but after a few minutes of eating it, a full stomach, it will start turning unpleasant, even causing you to vomit. The way I see it, a neutral moment is a neutral moment. (what was a netrual moment before maybe experienced as pleasant due to other reasons, but this is a different matter) I think there is craving for experiencing. The mind again and again takes up senesory stimuli. It is like an infant looking and searching in wonder for new experience- the brighter the better. When there is continued awareness of unsatisfactoriness/anicca this attachment is broken. The vinnana stops its job of being a conjurour. This seems to be the function of nibbida. This is a point where craving and getting rid of that craving is understood. What binds the mind to sensory phenomena seems to be the fetters. To escape the fetters there is a intense movement of the mind beyond the 8th jhana. This is why jhana practice is so important for the process, as it facilitates this movement. Those with jhaana can reach phalasamawatha for the same reason. metta Matheesha 57717 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] german translations nilovg Dear Connie, thank you very much, it worked. Nina. op 11-04-2006 16:48 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > > Dear Nina and Joop, > The Kommentar Literatur at www.palikanon.com/index.html 57718 From: "ericlonline" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re:what is sati. ericlonline Hi Tep, Tep wrote: >I have not been formally trained - although I spent several nights in'seclusion' at a few Buddhist temples ("wats") in Thailand over a period of 4 -5 years (back in the 1990's). >I was born and lived for over two decades in a house (in Bangkok) that was surrounded by seven Buddhist temples, and I visited them often. I used to seriously study many books written by Thai monks who were highly "capable" in samatha-vipassana. I have a "fathom- long bookcase" filled with those books and the Suttanta-Pitaka. {:>) :-) Me too but I am not decieved by them. I know the end of dukkha is not within them! >I came to DSG through Howard's recommendation. I stay on because several DSG's members are highly active and highly knowledgable in Theravada Buddhism. Indeed. >I also belong to two other online groups: SariputtaDhamma@yahoogroups.com http://groups.msn.com/Vipassana Thanks 57719 From: "ericlonline" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline Dear Scott, Scott Duncan wrote: "I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct teachings." Jon >>(not E): "I appreciate what you are saying here, but I would just say that we cannot hasten the process, and any wish to do so is likely to lead us into wrong practice of some form or another. E:"Ever hear of backburning a fire? Ever hear of stepping on a thorn and removing it with 2 thorns and throwing all the thorns away? Both take skill which can be developed." Scott: Your penultimate point above is what I am concerned about. Being new to all this, my worry that I misunderstand something is great. There are so many points of view and pointers-out-of-points- of-view. Dont be decieved by words! But Jon wrote the 2nd blurb, not me. Scott : Finding "truth" in general is not enough. Finding "truth" in fine is, I guess, the slow process one cannot hasten. > I have heard of a backburning fire. Doesn't it extinguish itself? I seek to know this skill of which you speak. It is just a metaphor and like all metaphors they have limited import. The point I was making is that desire can be turned or used on itself like backburning a fire. Wholesome desire (chanda) is what the path is all about. 57720 From: "ericlonline" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat ericlonline Hi Matheesha, Matheesha wrote: > I find Leigh's methods curious. Wanted to clarify a few things. Does he speak of giving rise to jhana factors one after the other intentionally? Then when they are all present at the same time, this is the begining of the first jhana? His retreats already assume you are not a beginner in meditation. He does not give preliminary instruction (at least the one I was on) but suggests to go with what you know. He then begins to point to where there may be piti and talks about the similies describing the first and second jhana. He tries to then get you to explore the piti and make it grow like the descriptions of the similies. Not everyone can do it. Some of the instruction was 1 on 1. He does not give everyone the same instructions. > I agree with your idea of spreading piti/rapture. Everything the mind focuses on will be tinged with piti -hence the breath as well- > breathing in and out with piti; with sukha etc. Yes, I told James how I get the piti to ignite. How do you do it? metta 57721 From: "ericlonline" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat.lay jhana ericlonline Dear Mateesha & Jon, Thanks for this Matheesha. Jon and I were discussing the Anapanasati Sutta awhile back and he dogmatically kept saying that jhana was a Monks and Nuns practice *exclusively*. I begged to differ and this sutta "proves it"!! Jon? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > The sutta below, where the Buddha names his female lay devotees of > distinction, shows development of metta bhavana and jhana practice > amongst them. > > "Bhikkhus, out of my lay female disciples the first to take the three > refuges is Sujàta the daughter of Seniya. Visakhà the mother of Migàra > is the foremost female devotee. Kujjuttarà the most learned. > Samawathie for developing loving kindness.. Uttaranandamàtà for > jhanas. " > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/014-Etadaggapali-e.htm > 57722 From: "ericlonline" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:28am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta ericlonline Hi Matheesa, > M: We musnt forget that vedana isnt a fixed reponse to a given > situation. Eating chocalate is pleasant vedana but after a few minutes > of eating it, a full stomach, it will start turning unpleasant, even causing you to vomit. You have kids? :-) > I think there is craving for experiencing. The mind again and again takes up senesory stimuli. It is like an infant looking and searching in wonder for new experience- the brighter the better. Yes and before this craving for ontology (being). > When there is continued awareness of unsatisfactoriness/anicca this attachment is broken. The vinnana stops its job of being a conjurour. > This seems to be the function of nibbida. This is a point where craving and getting rid of that craving is understood. Yes, but we can say that nibbida is this whole process and not really anything in and of itself. But this is very well said. Have you been 'here'? > What binds the mind to sensory phenomena seems to be the fetters. Yes and ontology addiction like above. >To escape the fetters there is a intense movement of the mind beyond the 8th jhana. This is why jhana practice is so important for the process, as it facilitates this movement. Those with jhaana can reach phalasamawatha for the same reason. Yes but you do not need to go to the arupas to break the fetters. metta 57723 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 0:37pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) buddhatrue Hi Scott, Jon, and E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Dear Scott, > > > Scott Duncan wrote: > "I don't want to cling to an idea called meditation and yet I want to > practise with right view as you are pointing out. It seems that I > have little interest in debate and just want to know the correct > teachings." > > Jon >>(not E): "I appreciate what you are saying here, but I would > just say that > we cannot hasten the process, and any wish to do so is likely to lead > us into wrong practice of some form or another. > > E:"Ever hear of backburning a fire? > Ever hear of stepping on a thorn > and removing it with 2 thorns and > throwing all the thorns away? Both > take skill which can be developed." > > Scott: Your penultimate point above is what I am concerned about. > Being new to all this, my worry that I misunderstand something is > great. There are so many points of view and pointers-out-of- points- > of-view. > > > Dont be decieved by words! > But Jon wrote the > 2nd blurb, not me. > > > Scott : Finding "truth" in general is not enough. Finding "truth" > in fine is, I guess, the slow process one cannot hasten. > > > I have heard of a backburning fire. Doesn't it extinguish itself? I > seek to know this skill of which you speak. > > > It is just a metaphor and like > all metaphors they have limited > import. The point I was making > is that desire can be turned or > used on itself like backburning > a fire. Wholesome desire (chanda) > is what the path is all about. > Just thought I would jump into this thread. I'm feeling much better today, and have some time on my hands, so thought I would post. Meditation or sati practice is kind of tricky because it can become a sort of "spiritual materialism" where the desire is to achieve great things or become a great person. And usually when one has this goal, he or she is impatient for tangible results. This type of person usually likes to describe how much he/she meditates per day, how well they keep the precepts, how many retreats they have attended, who they have studied under, etc. etc. etc. These things are racked up in the mind of the practioner with a sense of pride and conceit. This type of spiritual materialism is what Jon is warning you about- and I agree that it can be a problem. Personally, I experienced some of this in my own practice. I used to meditate at my Buddhist temple in the evenings when no parishioners were around. I would meditate in the great hall. Different Thai monks would come in every once in a while to look at me meditating- a curious sight for them to see an American meditating. This attention went to my head after a while and I started to feel like I was something "special". I began to extend my sitting sessions simply for the mere fact that it impressed the monks who were watching me. I got to the point where I could sit for about two hours without moving, and without using a pillow (very painful!!). After a while, however, the monks got used to me coming to sit and they no longer came into the meditation hall to gawk at me. I found myself feeling slightly disappointed, and thankfully I stopped sitting for so blessed long! LOL! You see, I let ego creep into my Buddhist practice. (Of course I realized how silly I had been and afterwards ignored any attention I was getting.) I think this happens to everyone at some point in their Buddhist practice, because ego is so insidious- but one just needs to be aware of it when it happens. Of course, I believe that Jon and others in this group are toooooo overly concerned about this happening. They are so concerned about conceit entering into practice that they don't practice at all, but simply wait for insight to spontaneously arise- like pennies from heaven. I don't agree with this approach either. It will get a person absolutely nowhere. The safeguard is to always examine your motivations for your practice. Are you meditating to impress others; to feel special in some way; to escape from your life, etc.? Or, are you meditating to be more "awake", to find the cure for suffering, to benefit all sentient beings, etc.? If your motivation is pure, then the practice will be pure; if your motivation is corrupt, then the practice will be corrupt. The fault lies not with the practice, but with the motivation. And just don't let any Thai monks spy on you! ;-)) Metta, James 57724 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:24pm Subject: Vism.XVII,70 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 70. But when the root-causes' sense of root is taken as establishing stableness, rather than as establishing profitableness, etc., there is no contradiction. For states that have obtained a root-cause condition are firm, like trees, and stable; but those without root-cause are, like moss [with roots no bigger than] sesamum seeds, etc., unstable. So an assistantial state may be understood as a root-cause condition, since it establishes stableness through being of assistance in the sense of a root. *********************** 70. kusalaadibhaavasaadhanavasena pana hetuuna.m muula.t.tha.m agahetvaa suppati.t.thitabhaavasaadhanavasena gayhamaane na ki~nci virujjhati. laddhahetupaccayaa hi dhammaa viruu.lhamuulaa viya paadapaa thiraa honti suppati.t.thitaa, ahetukaa tilabiijakaadisevaalaa viya na suppati.t.thitaa. iti muula.t.thena upakaarakoti suppati.t.thitabhaavasaadhanena upakaarako dhammo hetupaccayoti veditabbo. 57725 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:02pm Subject: XVII 197 lbidd2 197. 3. 'By inclusion': now there is (a) the simple mentality with consciousness as condition in both the course of an existence and rebirth-linking in the immaterial sphere, and in the course of an existence in the five-constituent becoming, and (b) the simple materiality with consciousness as condition in both cases among the non-percipient, and in the course of an existence in the five-constituent becoming, and (c) the [combined] mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition in both cases in the five-constituent becoming. All that mentality and materiality and mentality-materiality should be understood as 'mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition', including them under mentality-materiality according to the method that allows any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind.38 ---------------------------- Note 38. The expression 'ekadesasaruupekasesa' is grammatically explained at Pm. 623; see allied expressions, 'katekasesa' (par.204) and 'ekasese kate' (par. 223). Cf. Paa.nini i, 2, 64 57726 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:01pm Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta indriyabala Hi, Matheesha and Eric (& Howard) - Thanks Matheesha for giving me your thoughts about feeling, craving, fetter and jhanas. Thanks Eric for your thought on nibbida -- I need to learn more. >Matheesha: ... there is craving for experiencing. The mind again and again takes up senesory stimuli. ... When there is continued awareness of unsatisfactoriness/anicca this attachment is broken. The vinnana stops its job of being a conjurour. This seems to be the function of nibbida. ...What binds the mind to sensory phenomena seems to be the fetters. Tep: I believe you are right in all these three issues. ............... Tep: But I am not sure I follow your following remarks: >Matheesha: To escape the fetters there is a intense movement of the mind beyond the 8th jhana. This is why jhana practice is so important for the process, as it facilitates this movement. Those with jhaana can reach phalasamawatha for the same reason. ............. >Eric: Yes, but we can say that nibbida is this whole process and not really anything in and of itself. Tep: Could you explain a little bit why nibbida is "this whole process"? I think nibbida is a knowledge (nana) that is conditioned by a thorough understanding of a danger (or unsatisfactoriness) of a phenomenon (e.g. feeling). Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hi Matheesa, > > > > I think there is craving for experiencing. The mind again and > again takes up senesory stimuli. It is like an infant looking and > searching in wonder for new experience- the brighter the better. > > Yes and before this craving for ontology (being). > > >(snipped) 57727 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Concentration ken_aitch Hi Nina, Thanks for your help. ---- N: > there is wrong concentration (with akusala citta), micchaasamaadhi, and right concentration, sammaasamaadhi. There are many levels of sammaasamaadhi. ---- Yes, Htoo reminded me of that once, but he and I agreed it was less confusing if we used the adjective 'kusala' where a samma cetasika was not accompanied by panna. --------------- N: > The Expositor which defines concentration, deals with sammaa- samaadhi and gives as manifestation: peace of mind or knowledge. 'For it has been said: 'He who is concentrated knows, sees according to truth.' --------------- From what you say, I am assuming that refers to all samma-samadhi and there are many different levels of 'seeing according to truth.' I won't ask you to elaborate on the meaning of "manifestation" where it applies to paramattha dhammas. I have an idea of what it means. I think we have to *understand* how they manifest rather than *envisage* how they manifest. It's like the point about visible object that you and K Sujin like to make: Visible object should not be understood as a 'pixel of colour' or as a 'single frame in a film' etc, but as 'the dhamma that appears at the eye-door.' (As it is doing now.) Thanks again for your help. Ken H 57728 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:18pm Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thank you so much for your post. There is much in it that I appreciate. > J: "Meditation or sati practice is kind of tricky because it can become a sort of "spiritual materialism" where the desire is to achieve great things or become a great person...This type of spiritual materialism is what Jon is warning you about- and I agree that it can be a problem." Exactly! Spiritual materialism - I didn't know what to call it. Thanks for the great anecdote. I've struggled with similar feelings and was getting into other problems wondering what to do about kicking myself for being so conceited. I figured that some inflation of the personality was bound to accompany my entrance into Buddhism since I'd been without a "spiritual path" having dropped the one forced on me in my youth years ago. I'd start worrying, for example, that maybe I had a "satipatthana-face" while walking around trying to be aware of things and then I wondered if people could tell what a pious and deep fellow I was. I'd almost want people to know what was happening to me spiritually. I've tried to keep it to myself but I mean really, for crying out loud . . . J: "I think this happens to everyone at some point in their Buddhist practice, because ego is so insidious- but one just needs to be aware of it when it happens." Its good to get a bit of perspective on this. I know better but its nice to be reminded that if I'm struggling with it someone else must have as well. It was actually bugging me quite a bit. I'm really not used to feeling so sure about something in the realm of "belief." J: "The safeguard is to always examine your motivations for your practice. Are you meditating to impress others; to feel special in some way; to escape from your life, etc.? Or, are you meditating to be more "awake", to find the cure for suffering, to benefit all sentient beings, etc.? If your motivation is pure, then the practice will be pure; if your motivation is corrupt, then the practice will be corrupt. The fault lies not with the practice, but with the motivation." I want out of samsara. That's why I'm at it. I hope that I'm not bragging. That's just my aim. By the way, although I edited out your comments on the difference in opinion you have with others I did read them. Thanks again, James, for your really thoughtful comments. Its difficult for me, at times, to try to get a perspective on all this. Sincerely, Scott. 57729 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:29pm Subject: Joys of the Flesh and Beyond ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Worldly Joys, Happiness, Equanimity, Release and Beyond!!! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are joys of the flesh, there are joys not of this world, and there are rapturous joys far beyond even such subtle unworldly joys ... There is happiness of the flesh, there is a happiness not of this world, and there is an exquisite bliss far beyond even such subtle unworldly happiness ... There is indifference of the flesh, there is an equanimity not of this world, and there is a serene peace far beyond even such subtle unworldly equanimity ... There is satisfaction of the flesh, there is a mental release not of this world, and there is a total liberation far beyond even such subtle unworldly release ... And what, bhikkhus, are then these simple joys of the flesh? There are these five strings of sense-pleasure. What five? Visible forms experiencable by the eye ... Hearable sounds experiencable by the ear ... Smellable odours experiencable by the nose ... Tastable flavours experiencable by the tongue ... Touchable objects experiencable by the body ... Recognizable mental states experiencable by the mind ... That all are attractive, captivating, desirable, irresistible, lovely, agreeable, tempting, pleasing, sensually enticing, seductive, alluring, and tantalizing...!!! These are the five strings of sense-pleasure. The joy that arises from these five strings of sense-pleasure: this is simply the joy of the flesh ... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [235-7] section 36:11 On Feeling: Vedana. Joys beyond this world ... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57730 From: a b Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:25am Subject: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy okay, or bad? anonymous_4_11_2006@... Send Email Here is the new writing I wish to share <...>: A theory: If you believe there is no self, then it makes it easier to practice 'metta' (loving kindness)? If you believe it is 'I' who is sending forth metta, it is more stressful? If you believe there is no self, when you are sending forth metta, it is only metta that exists at that time; no 'I' doing the sending forth of metta. That 'dhamma' (mental quality) (is that a correct buddhist term I can call it, or that is not correct at all to call it a 'dhamma'?) is what only exists, no 'I' that exists. When you have anger, it is only anger that exists at that time, no 'I' behind that anger. This is the Abhidhamma way? The Abhidhamma says there are mental qualities, some in the good group (one of them, for example: 'non- hate' or whatever, which can be 'metta' also?), some in the bad group (one of them, for example: 'hate' or whatever, which I call 'anger' here), and some that exist in both the bad and good groups? That's my writing. from, anonymous_4_11_2006@... ( previously I was anonymous_3_17_2006@... ) NOTE: it is yahoo.com with this new anonymous_4_11_2006 email account, not yahoo.ca. Here's the copy & paste of that blog post: The URL to the discussion is: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=28159 But here is that discussion's posts copied & pasted here at my blog. The name of the author of the post is put before the post in boldface, in a large size (I am anonymous_3_17_2006). For example, for me: ***** anonymous_3_17_2006: *****. Here goes, with the first post of the discussion (which is mine), then with all the posts that followed it, up to now, in chronological order: ***** anonymous_3_17_2006: ***** I have suffered with this for some years. If 'anatta' (not-self) means there is no self, then I am free. But Thanissaro has killed my spiritual freedom. Thanissaro (and a certain poster's words in the past somewhere else on the net ) has killed my spiritual growth by giving me doubt that this not-self can be experienced as a worldly person. Can this not-self be experienced as NO self as a worldly desirous person, or one must be a renunciative, meaning a monk? Here is the article in question, found in a search of Anatta (not-self) in the General Index at http://accesstoinsight.org : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...ro/notself.html Here are MY excerpts from it: Books on Buddhism often state that the Buddha's most basic metaphysical tenet is that there is no soul or self. However, a survey of the discourses in the Pali Canon — the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings — suggests that the Buddha taught the anatta or not-self doctrine, not as a metaphysical assertion, but as a strategy for gaining release from suffering ... The evidence for this reading of the Canon centers around four points: The one passage where the Buddha is asked point-blank to take a position on the ontological question of whether or not there is a self, he refuses to answer. ... Now here is something written in another writing (by Ven. Dr. W. Rahula?), my boldfacing the parts I wish: ... Some people think that Voidness or Sunyata discussed by Nagarjuna is purely a Mahayana teaching. It is based on the idea of Anatta or non-self, on the Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent Origination, found in the original Theravada Pali texts. Once Ananda asked the Buddha, "People say the word Sunya. What is Sunya?" The Buddha replied, "Ananda, there is no self, nor anything pertaining to self in this world. Therefore, the world is empty." This idea was taken by Nagarjuna when he wrote his remarkable book, "Madhyamika Karika". Besides the idea of Sunyata is the concept of the store-consciousness in Mahayana Buddhism which has its seed in the Theravada texts. The Mahayanists have developed it into a deep psychology and philosophy. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha125.htm Or could it be Thanissaro has changed his view, and believes there is no self, and that John Bullit (owner of accesstoinsight.org) leaves this writing there at accesstoinsight.org, because he goes with it...? Or John Bullit just doesn't understand this kills the spiritual life -- if it does at all -- as I said was my idea that it kills my spiritual life. Or John Bullit doesn't know that this writing is still there, while Thanissaro has changed his view already? What is the correct buddhist view? If Thanissaro is incorrect, then tell me (Thanissaro, according to this writing, does not believe anatta means there is no self, right?) If believing there is no self is incorrect, then tell me -- that would mean Thanisaro's view here is correct, right? from, anonymous <....> 57732 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:06am Subject: lunch with Charles Da Costa (Charles D):-)) sarahprocter... Hi friends (including Charles D!), Just got home after a very pleasant and leisurely 3.5hr lunch with Charles D. In due course (when he’s figured it out), Jon will put up a pic of Charles in the member album. The chat, the dhamma discussion and the food all flowed very freely and easily – as with other DSG friends we meet, Charles & I embraced each other warmly (we'd both arrived very early) and got straight into a discussion of dhammas whilst we sorted out a problem with his mobile, sipped our green tea and chatted about kung fu in between. Charles is here from Denmark to spend 3 weeks with a Kung Fu master and I learnt a little about the various kung fu schools. We also chatted a little about how DSG started, how he found his way here and how he hadn’t got on too well on other lists... As a teenager from a poor background, he was already deeply interested in philosophy and religion, read a lot, studied Zen, Tibetan teachings and got seriously into Kung Fu... He ended up in Denmark on a teacher-exchange program, where he now teaches kung fu as well as being a computer engineer (even though he has yet to find his way to our homepage, photo album or Useful Posts:-)). Charles, it’s here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ Over the tea we discussed kung fu and Buddhism, his wish to use martial arts as a skilful means and a discussion about whether kung fu, tai chi and so on have any importance whatsoever. He sees these as many paths. He said I used some Pali words which he found helpful, but I’ve forgotten what they were too.... Over the pumpkin soup with Jon, we chatted about hopes and expectations, thinking about the next moment rather than being aware now. Are there really no arahants and does it matter? Back to hopes for this lifetime and enlightenment round the corner vs understanding present dhammas. Of course, anatta and no control, knowing realities – but is this really a way one could talk to teenagers with their hopes, sexual desires and hormones ablaze? What about being aware of one’s body and fitting into social norms? Charles has obviously always been someone who deeply questions rather than taking easily to strait jackets. Back to the pumpkin soup and how what is seen is visible object followed by so much thinking. We were all on the same page here – easy, it seemed! I thought we’d be spending our time on discussing trees and visible objects, but there wasn’t any disagreement:) We talked about accumulated likes and dislikes and then it got a little out of sync when he introduced what he’d heard about a 6th khandha, a personality khandha incorporating our drives or what Freud would call ‘instinct’.:-/ We were onto the curries by the time we had finished with this and also discussed a little on elements vs scientific atoms.... By now, I had started making a few notes on a print-out of a message by James (#57723) and I’ve got a note about there being different levels for explaining no self and no control. We had a tangential discussion as I read out part of James’s post which got my attention as I was scribbling where James was writing about how he believes ‘Jon and others in this group are tooooo over concerned’...down to ‘if your motivation is pure, then the practice will be pure, if your motivation is corrupt, then the practice will be corrupt.’ Charles thought this part of James’s message was good. ‘I love it’, he said. ‘You can sit in a cave and wait forever’. He wanted to change the last note from ‘And just don’t let any Thai monks spy on you!’ to ‘Don’t let any Thai monks control you’. Go figure... Back to our discussions on social issues, Mahayana teachings on nothingness...all very naturally as Charles used the incident of a little spilt beef curry and our normal greeds to show anything can happen and bad things may have good consequences. He was only in Hong Kong and having this discussion and pleasant occasion because of having lost his job. We got onto more details about kamma and vipaka – just a moment of seeing or tasting only. It must have been over the next big plateful of different curries that we were onto political systems in the more socialist-oriented Danish system vs the more capitalist American system. Can we say the first is more Buddhist and are wealth and poverty the result of kamma or greed? Is there a greater good or equivalent of someone looking out for one, hindsight is great vision and all sorts of other topics. (I can’t read my notes scribbled between James’s comments here). I know by the time of deserts there was much more on vipaka, experiences through the senses and conditioned dhammas. Also more on family life (Charles has a wife and small child in Denmark), on difficult circumstances and how we can’t make things turn out as we’d like most the time. Charles was so appreciative of the occasion and a couple of books we gave him and for us it was a very moving and special discussion. Like Herman in Australia last year, Charles couldn’t remember when he’s last had a live dhamma discussion – a very, very long time ago. If it hadn’t been for other commitments, we could have continued and continued.....very relaxed, lots of laughter and good daily life examples such as the lack of control over our greeds, the response to a mouthful of chilli, the frustration of trying to get through to the mobile company as we greeted each other and so on.....lots and lots of fun:). Charles is having internet problems on the road, so I won’t hold my breath waiting for his post. Hope you got your phone fixed, Charles and are not suffering too much from the beef curry:). Perhaps we’ll have a chance to get together or speak at least before you leave next week. Thanks again for the good discussion. I know that this was also more precious to you than all those dishes of food.... Hope the rest of your stay works out well... Metta, Sarah ========= 57733 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:26am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 69 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 69. Intro. In this section and in the following one, the Visuddhimagga deals again with the meaning of hetu-paccaya, root-condition. As we have seen, the word hetu, root, denotes a specific cause and the word condition, paccaya, denotes a general cause. Some teachers, such as Revata, thought that the wholesome roots are the cause of the nature of kusala in the dhammas they condition. However, the ruupas produced by sahetuka citta, citta accompanied by roots, are also conditioned by way of root-condition. Ruupa is neither kusala nor akusala, it is indeterminate, avyaakata. Therefore, it cannot be said that wholesome roots generate kusala. It is explained that the roots are a condition for other dhammas by being a firm foundation, a support for them. -------- 69. The intention of [some] teachers is that it establishes the profitable, etc., state in what is profitable, etc., as paddy seeds, etc., do for paddy, etc., and as the colour of gems, etc., do for the lustre of gems, and so on[10]. ----- Note 10. 'This refers to the teacher Revata' (Pm. 582). --------- But if that is so, then [it follows that] the state of root-cause condition does not apply to the kinds of materiality originated by it, for it does not establish any profitableness, etc., in them. Nevertheless, it is a condition for them, for this is said: 'Root-causes are a condition, as root-cause condition, for the states associated with a root-cause and for the kinds of materiality originated thereby' ------ N:It is not so that kusala hetus, roots, and akusala hetus are the cause of kusala and akusala in the dhammas they condition. But, the Tiika adds, it is not so that there is no condition. As the Pa.t.thana states: hetus also condition by way of root-condition the ruupas that are originated by the kusala cittas rooted in sobhana hetus and the akusala cittas rooted in akusala hetus. Dhammas are classified as kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and avyaakata dhamma, indeterminate dhamma, that is: neither kusala nor akusala. Ruupa is indeterminate dhamma, it is neither kusala nor akusala. However, ruupas such as gestures and speech are originated by the kusala cittas rooted in sobhana hetus and the akusala cittas rooted in akusala hetus. These roots condition the ruupas originated by kusala cittas or akusala cittas, by being a support for them. ------- Text Vis: Again, the indeterminateness of root-causeless consciousness is established without it. And the profitableness, etc., of those with root-cause is bound up with wise attention, etc., not with the associated root-causes. ------ N: Thus, the wholesome roots and unwholesome roots do not bring about the wholesome nature or unwholesome nature of the kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Their wholesome or unwholesome nature (sabhaava) is dependent on wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) or unwise attention (ayoniso manasikaara). (See also the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, T.A. p. 92, 93). The Tiika emphasizes that wholesomeness or unwholesomeness is not bound up with the hetus, but with the manner of attention to the object that is experienced, with wise attention or unwise attention. The Tiika refers to the text of the Anguttara Nikaaya (I, 12): ----- Text Vis.: And if the profitableness, etc., resided in the associated root-causes as an individual essence, then either the non-greed bound up with the root-cause in the associated states would be only profitable or it would be only indeterminate; but since it can be both, profitableness, etc., in the root-causes must still be sought for, just as in the associated states [such as wise attention, and so on]. ----------------------- N: The Tiika explains that non-attachment, alobha, can be kusala as well as indeterminate. It can accompany the mahaa-kiriyacitta of the arahat or mahaa-vipaakacitta. The same is true for non-aversion, adosa, the Tiika states. We read in the the Co. to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 93): The arahat has mahaa-kiriyacittas rooted in sobhana hetus. These do not produce any results. He has eradicated all latent tendencies and thus, there are no conditions for akusala cittas. ------- Conclusion: In a process of cittas javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats) arise after the mind-door-adverting consciousness, which performs in a sense-door process the function of determining (votthapana) and in the mind-door process the function of adverting to the object through the mind-door. If the javana-cittas are kusala cittas there is wise attention to the object, and if they are akusala cittas there is unwise attention to the object. Cittas arise because of their appropriate conditions: nobody can decide whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas succeed the determining-consciousness in a sense-door process or the mind-door adverting-consciousness in the mind-door process. The kusala or akusala that has been accumulated condition the javana cittas to be kusala or akusala. It is important to differentiate the conditioning factors that operate in our life. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise dependent on wise attention or unwise attention to the object that is experienced. They are supported by the roots that accompany them. They produce ruupas and these are also supported by these roots. Akusala citta rooted in dosa can condition gestures, facial expressions and speech. These ruupas are supported by akusala hetus. When we are generous and kind, kusala citta rooted in wholesome roots can condition facial expressions of kindness or gestures expressing generosity. These ruupas are supported by sobhana hetus. When we notice harsh speech or angry gestures in other people, we can learn that these are ruupas produced by citta and supported by akusala hetus, and this can be the condition for more patience and tolerance. Understanding of the Abhidhamma is beneficial, also for the relationship with our fellow-beings. **** Nina. 57734 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional and ultimate truth sarahprocter... Hi Daniel (& Dan), A great question and a great answer by Dan:). A couple more comments below: .... > > Just wanted to ask if the terms "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate > > truth" are used by Theravada? How does one say them in Pali? > > First, there is the term "vohara-sacca", which means 'conventional > truth', and the term "sammuti-sacca", which means 'commonly accepted > truth'. Buddha often used conventional language (vohara-vacana) to > point out deeper truths or "ultimate" realities (ariya-sacca, > paramattha-dhamma). It is easy to mistakenly read the vohara-vacana > of the Buddha with a conventional understanding and miss the > underlying paramattha-dhamma that brings to light the ariya-sacca. > This topic is a perennial favorite in dsg--and for good reason. An > understanding of the distinction between vohara and paramattha is > central to understanding Dhamma. .... For more, look in 'useful posts' in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Scroll down to posts from the archives under the follow headings and check the links: 1.Conventional Teaching vs by way of Ultimate Realities 2.Paramattha Dhammas 3.Concepts & Realities You'll find a wealth of information on this topic:). Daniel, a warm welcome to DSG. Can I encourage you to introduce yourself a little - anything about your interest in the Buddha's teachings? Where do you live? Anything else..... Please let us know a little more about your interest in this topic too.. Look forward to discussing more with you later.... Metta, Sarah ========= 57735 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:49am Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? indriyabala Hi - This is the first time I write 'hi' without a name (even a faked one) following it. Is 'anonymous' equivalent to 'no name', or ' no body', or no self? By the way, first of all, what is the Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy? Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, a b wrote: > > <....> > Here is the new writing I wish to share > <....> > A theory: > > If you believe there is no self, then it makes it easier to practice 'metta' (loving kindness)? If you believe it is 'I' who is sending forth metta, it is more stressful? > > If you believe there is no self, when you are sending forth metta, it is only metta that exists at that time; no 'I' doing the sending forth of metta. That 'dhamma' (mental quality) (is that a correct buddhist term I can call it, or that is not correct at all to call it a 'dhamma'?) (snipped) > That's my writing. > > from, > anonymous_4_11_2006@... ( previously I was anonymous_3_17_2006@... ) > > <....> > 57736 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? sarahprocter... Dear Anonymous Friend, Welcome to DSG! --- a b wrote: > If you believe there is no self, then it makes it easier to practice > 'metta' (loving kindness)? ..... S: What do you mean by 'practice 'metta' '? When there is some understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will. .... >If you believe it is 'I' who is sending forth > metta, it is more stressful? .... S: It is wrong view. .... > If you believe there is no self, when you are sending forth metta, it > is only metta that exists at that time; .... S: Regardless of any belief, metta is a mental state, no you who can send it forth. ... > no 'I' doing the sending forth > of metta. ... S: Right ... >That 'dhamma' (mental quality) (is that a correct buddhist > term I can call it, or that is not correct at all to call it a > 'dhamma'?) is what only exists, no 'I' that exists. .... S: Right. .... >When you have anger, > it is only anger that exists at that time, no 'I' behind that anger. ... S: Right. A dhamma which arises and falls away immediately. .... > This is the Abhidhamma way? ... S: It doesn't matter about the label. It's the truth that can be proved. No self which can be found or experienced anywhere. Mere dhammas arising and falling away. .... >The Abhidhamma says there are mental > qualities, some in the good group (one of them, for example: 'non-hate' > or whatever, which can be 'metta' also?) .... S: Right. When the object is people, there can be metta, a kind of adosa. .... > some in the bad group (one of > them, for example: 'hate' or whatever, which I call 'anger' here), and > some that exist in both the bad and good groups? .... S: It's very good. Examples of the last kind in the bad and good group are chanda (desire/interest) which can be good or bad, also piti(joy/enthusiasm) likewise. Many more - effort, feeling, perception, concentration, determination etc etc. I hope that sometime you'll be able to introduce yourself a little more. I think you'd find Nina's book 'Cetasikas' very helpful. You can find the link on my extracts from it here. I know you have difficulties posting - hope you can find a way. Metta, Sarah ======= 57737 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:37am Subject: Marisa's questions.Lessons in Dhamma, no 3. nilovg Lessons in Dhamma, no 3. Throughout all these years with Acharn Sujin we discussed again and again what seeing is: the experience of what appears through eyesense. We discussed what hearing is: the experience of what appears through the earsense. We are always forgetful of seeing and hearing, because we are more interested in concepts such as people, things and events. However, also thinking which thinks of concepts is a type of naama which can be realized as such. Thinking is real and if we are not aware of it we shall continue taking it for self. We can never be reminded enough of nåma and rúpa, because these are ultimate realities paññå has to understand. Right understanding of nåma and rúpa leads to detachment from the idea of self. We were reminded that awareness is not self, that it cannot be induced. Acharn Sujin asked us: ²Who is aware?² When we answered, ³Awareness is aware², she said, ²That is in the book, but in your mind?² Such remarks made us realize how much we are still clinging to the idea of ³my awareness². Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following citta, and in this way all wholesome and unwholesome qualities of the past have been accumulated from moment to moment. Evenso all wholesome and unwholesome qualities that arise at the present time are accumulated and they will condition our life in the future. When ignorance arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of ignorance, even during aeons. When understanding arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of understanding. Even if there is a short moment of right understanding now, it is not lost, it is accumulated and thus there are conditions for its arising later on. The Buddha taught the development of understanding of our life at this very moment. The Abhidhamma teaches about citta, cetasika and rúpa, realities arising all the time. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin for pointing out to us time and again that we should understand our life at this very moment. What she explained is completely in conformity with the Buddha¹s teachings. When we are studying the teachings we should not forget that also studying and considering what we read are conditioned dhammas. We listened to the Dhamma in the past and this conditions our interest today. Acharn Sujin said: "Dhamma is dhamma, otherwise there is always the idea of ŒI am studying¹. Consider what dhamma is, and one will be able to develop one¹s own understanding... Study realities as elements, with detachment from the idea of self... Lobha hinders the understanding of the reality right now. If there is no detachment from the dhamma appearing right now, there will never be the attainment of nibbaana.The Path is so very subtle, because it has to go along with detachment from the very beginning. Even at the moment of study and considering, let there be the study of reality, not the study of 'I' at all." (the end) ******* Nina. 57738 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) scottduncan2 Dear Eric, Sorry I mixed up you and Jon. I don't think Jon's post made it to me. I'll search this list for it. Thanks again for your kind reply. > Dont be decieved by words! > But Jon wrote the > 2nd blurb, not me. > It is just a metaphor and like > all metaphors they have limited > import. The point I was making > is that desire can be turned or > used on itself like backburning > a fire. Wholesome desire (chanda) > is what the path is all about. > Sorry for missing your point. The above makes sense. Sincerely, Scott. 57739 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] lunch with Charles Da Costa (Charles D):-)) nilovg Hi Sarah and Charles D, This was a delightful report on discussions during delicious curries. You made me feel hungry. And the scribbles on James post, a post I truly appreciated. Yes, that we are toooooo concerned as to practice. The understanding itself is the practice, nothing else, as I see it. But I will not start a discussion now. Next week (three days) I will have delicious meals with Lodewijk in a hotel, and Dhamma discussions will not be lacking. I'll describe more what we eat, inspired by you. It will be good to hear more from Charles D. and I hope he finds a new job. Nina. op 12-04-2006 10:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: >> The chat, the dhamma discussion and the food all flowed very freely and > easily – as with other DSG friends we meet, 57740 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/12/06 7:52:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > If you believe there is no self, then it makes it easier to practice > >'metta' (loving kindness)? > ..... > S: What do you mean by 'practice 'metta' '? When there is some > understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta is > also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will. > ======================== You might consider the suttas at the following links: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-016.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#khp-9 In any case, Sarah, are you saying that there is no practice one can engage in to become a more loving person? I'm not talking about mere "Let it be so!" intentions and affirmations, but about extended and serious work to open one's heart. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57741 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] lunch with Charles Da Costa (Charles D):-)) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, CharlesD & all, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Charles D, > This was a delightful report on discussions during delicious curries. > You > made me feel hungry. And the scribbles on James post, a post I truly > appreciated. > Yes, that we are toooooo concerned as to practice. .... :-)) Thanks, Nina. I hope he'll find a way to add more. We've just added a couple of pics from the lunch - one in the member album (before the cheese-cake, I think!) and one in the DSG meetings album. While we were working out the technology of doing this (for the first time ever!!), we also managed to upload 4 from our trip to Thailand with you. (Pls tell Lodewijk that we haven't forgotten the hard copies....). So any of you who have not yet put a pic in the member album, if we can work it out, you probably can too:). If it's still too difficult, ask James or someone to help -- he can even give you extra muscles or a Santa Claus costume if you like, as he did for me and Howard once:-)). Any family pics for the 'significant others' album would also be nice to see. Nina, we'll look forward to more of your discussions over meals - we laughed a lot at the poor waiter having to give up on his introduction of the wines:). Thx also for your nice article and responses for Marisa. Also, thanks to Sukin, Joop & Phil. She told me she was very glad to have asked on DSG and says she plans to write sometime soon. Metta, Sarah ======= 57742 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat matheesha333 > Matheesha wrote: > > I find Leigh's methods curious. Wanted to clarify a few things. > Does he speak of giving rise to jhana factors one after the other > intentionally? Then when they are all present at the same time, this > is the begining of the first jhana? > >E: His retreats already assume you are > not a beginner in meditation. He does > not give preliminary instruction (at > least the one I was on) but suggests > to go with what you know. He then begins > to point to where there may be piti and > talks about the similies describing the > first and second jhana. He tries to then > get you to explore the piti and make it > grow like the descriptions of the similies. > Not everyone can do it. Some of the > instruction was 1 on 1. He does not give > everyone the same instructions. > M: My experience has been that when one goes into a jhana, there is a definite 'lifting' of the mind into a jhana state. Sometimes it is accompanied by flashes of light (mentally), shivering etc all in a rush. This is why I was asking about the begining. IMO presence of piti, sukha in themselves dont make up a jhana, as they can be present in prejhanic samadhi states as well. Perhaps the most important factor for identifying a jhana state is what I heard Ajhan Brahm suggesting - an unenforced, continuous, one-pointedness of mind which happens on it's own. Much like having a light on in a room-it's just there continuously- you dont have to do anything or focus or anything like that. >M: > I agree with your idea of spreading piti/rapture. Everything the > mind focuses on will be tinged with piti -hence the breath as well- > > breathing in and out with piti; with sukha etc. > >E: Yes, I told James how I > get the piti to ignite. > How do you do it? M: When im in 1-3 jhana (usually 2 or 3) I make a determination 'may piti arise'. It ususally does. I focus on it. Try to spread it to different parts of my body, by focusing on differt parts of the body. It fills up the whole body on good days and the whole body is ecstatic. On other days I dont bother and it stays in the background. A similie I use, perhaps more familiar to those in sri lanka is 'curd (yoghurt) and honey' which are equavivalent to sukha and piti. When it stays in the background it is like these two are mixed. But it is possible to experience them seperately again by making determinations. But I think it is important to understand that like all things that they are impermanant. :) with metta Matheesha 57743 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:49am Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy abhidhammika Dear Anonymous, Robert K, Mike N, Sarah, Nina, Tep, Jon and all Anonymous wrote: "If 'anatta' (not-self) means there is no self, then I am free." You are free, dhamma friend. Be joyous about that. You also wrote: "But Thanissaro has killed my spiritual freedom. Thanissaro (and a certain poster's words in the past somewhere else on the net ) has killed my spiritual growth by giving me doubt that this not-self can be experienced as a worldly person. Can this not-self be experienced as NO self as a worldly desirous person, or one must be a renunciative, meaning a monk?" Please forgive that poor monk. It is merely his personal opinion (attanomati). It only shows that he is still clinging to the concept of self and that he could not face the reality of the suññata (absence of self). The Buddha taught only four ultimate realities (paramatthadhammaa), namely, matter, consciousness, mental associates, and nibbaana. There is no such thing as the fifth reality. You also asked: "What is the correct buddhist view? If Thanissaro is incorrect, then tell me (Thanissaro, according to this writing, does not believe anatta means there is no self, right?)" If the Buddha were still alive, he would certainly have called Thanissaro foolish monk as he would Saati. The correct Buddhist view is that there is no self, no person, no being apart from the five psychosomatic aggregates (pancakkhandhaa). If Thanissaro believed that self exists inside or outside the five psychosomatic aggregates, then he is incorrect because the Buddha did not teach the sixth aggregate. The only self in Buddhist use is grammatical self such as myself, oneself. For example, attaa hi attano naatho. One is truly one's savior. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, a b wrote: Here is the new writing I wish to share <...>: What is the correct buddhist view? If Thanissaro is incorrect, then tell me (Thanissaro, according to this writing, does not believe anatta means there is no self, right?) If believing there is no self is incorrect, then tell me -- that would mean Thanisaro's view here is correct, right? from, anonymous <....> 57744 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:58am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta matheesha333 Hi Tep, Eric > >Matheesha: > > ... there is craving for experiencing. The mind again and again takes > up senesory stimuli. > > ... When there is continued awareness of unsatisfactoriness/anicca > this attachment is broken. The vinnana stops its job of being a > conjurour. This seems to be the function of nibbida. > > ...What binds the mind to sensory phenomena seems to be the fetters. > > Tep: I believe you are right in all these three issues. > > ............... M: oh good! I wasnt sure what the texts would say about it. > Tep: But I am not sure I follow your following remarks: > > >Matheesha: > To escape the fetters there is a intense movement of the mind beyond > the 8th jhana. This is why jhana practice is so important for the > process, as it facilitates this movement. Those with jhaana can reach > phalasamawatha for the same reason. > > ............. M: I'm not sure of the exact commentarial terms but I belive the above paragraph referes to aanantarkia samadhi or sanakhara upeksha (the 'intense movement' I mentioned) possibly the former. Phalasamawatha is the experiencing of phala citta over and over again by those capable of jhana practice which im not sure has any sutta mention except in arahaths. metta Matheesha 57745 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:07am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline Hi James, you wrote: > Meditation or sati practice is kind of tricky because it can become a sort of "spiritual materialism" where the desire is to achieve great things or become a great person... The fault lies not with the practice, but with the motivation. Yes and how will you find this self view and uproot it unless you practice? 57746 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:19am Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy indriyabala Dear Suan & Anonymous [Attn. Robert K, Mike N, Sarah, Nina, Jon] - I found another Ven. Thanissaro's article on the no-self/not-self thing; it is more recent (1996) than the 1993 article referenced by Anonymous. This more-recent article seems to directly answer your questions/criticism pretty well. Just read the following passage and please tell us what you think. "If you develop the path of virtue, concentration, and discernment to a state of calm well-being and use that calm state to look at experience in terms of the Noble Truths, the questions that occur to the mind are not "Is there a self? What is my self?" but rather "Am I suffering stress because I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? Is it really me, myself, or mine? If it's stressful but not really me or mine, why hold on?" These last questions merit straightforward answers, as they then help you to comprehend stress and to chip away at the attachment and clinging — the residual sense of self-identification — that cause it, until ultimately all traces of self-identification are gone and all that's left is limitless freedom. "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self? [endquote] Yours truly, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Anonymous, Robert K, Mike N, Sarah, Nina, Tep, Jon and all > > Anonymous wrote: > > "If 'anatta' (not-self) means there is no self, then I am free." > > You are free, dhamma friend. Be joyous about that. > > You also wrote: > > "But Thanissaro has killed my spiritual freedom. Thanissaro (and a > certain poster's words in the past somewhere else on the net ) has > killed my spiritual growth by giving me doubt that this not-self can > be experienced as a worldly person. Can this not-self be experienced > as NO self as a worldly desirous person, or one must be a > renunciative, meaning a monk?" > > Please forgive that poor monk. It is merely his personal opinion > (attanomati). It only shows that he is still clinging to the concept > of self and that he could not face the reality of the suññata > (absence of self). > (snipped) 57747 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:28am Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta ericlonline Hi Tep, Matheesa wrote: When there is continued awareness of unsatisfactoriness/anicca this attachment is broken. The vinnana stops its job of being a conjurour. > This seems to be the function of nibbida. This is a point where craving and getting rid of that craving is understood. E Wrote: Yes, but we can say that nibbida is this whole process and not really anything in and of itself. But this is very well said. Have you been 'here'? > Tep: Could you explain a little bit why nibbida is "this whole > process"? I think nibbida is a knowledge (nana) that is conditioned by > a thorough understanding of a danger (or unsatisfactoriness) of a > phenomenon (e.g. feeling). Yes that is what I was saying but I was coming at it more from an experiential point of view. This disenchantment arises because of the disenchanting process. One begins to realise the stressful nature of the aggregates at a very fundamental level. They hurt!! They are dukkha!! You cannot look away from this fundamental fact. Where ever you turn, you see and feel this. There is no escaping it! The mind thru this process of awakening to this inescapable fact comes to nibbida. But we can say that nibbida is this whole process of realizing the first and second noble truth. metta 57748 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat ericlonline Hi Matheesha, > M: My experience has been that when one goes into a jhana, there is a > definite 'lifting' of the mind into a jhana state. Sometimes it is > accompanied by flashes of light (mentally), shivering etc all in a > rush. Yes, this is how I explained enterring to James. But you can do this at will. The body will ignite with piti. >This is why I was asking about the begining. IMO presence of > piti, sukha in themselves dont make up a jhana, as they can be > present in prejhanic samadhi states as well. Yes, Leigh says there has to be absorption. >Perhaps the most > important factor for identifying a jhana state is what I heard Ajhan Brahm suggesting - an unenforced, continuous, one-pointedness of mind which happens on it's own. Much like having a light on in a room-it's just there continuously- you dont have to do anything or focus or anything like that. Yes of course. It is more a non-doing then a doing. "You" get out of the way and lo and behold, there it is, plain as daylight. > >E: Yes, I told James how I > > get the piti to ignite. > > How do you do it? > > M: When im in 1-3 jhana (usually 2 or 3) I make a determination 'may > piti arise'. It ususally does. I focus on it. Try to spread it to > different parts of my body, by focusing on differt parts of the body. Yes exactly. It will arise for me without much of a to do. But getting it to permeate the body fully takes a focusing on different parts of the body like you say. > It fills up the whole body on good days and the whole body is > ecstatic. On other days I dont bother and it stays in the background. Same here. > A similie I use, perhaps more familiar to those in sri lanka is 'curd (yoghurt) and honey' which are equavivalent to sukha and piti. When it stays in the background it is like these two are mixed. But it is possible to experience them seperately again by making determinations. Yes. I dont like piti all that much. It is too jittery. Almost tormentful. To get to see sukha only, I will take a deep breath and 'shake off' the piti. What is left is sukha. >But I think it is important to understand that like > all things that they are impermanant. :) :-) Of course. A monk once told me the Buddha meditated on the sukha of jhana and saw that this high sublime happiness was also impermanent, suffering and no-self. To have nibbida with sukha too seems to be very important. Where did you learn how to enter the jhanas? with metta 57749 From: "ericlonline" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:06am Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy ericlonline Dear Tep & All, > Just read the following passage and please tell us what you think. > > "If you develop the path of virtue, concentration, and discernment to > a state of calm well-being and use that calm state to look at > experience in terms of the Noble Truths, the questions that occur to > the mind are not "Is there a self? What is my self?" but rather "Am I > suffering stress because I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? > Is it really me, myself, or mine? If it's stressful but not really me > or mine, why hold on?" These last questions merit straightforward > answers, as they then help you to comprehend stress and to chip away > at the attachment and clinging — the residual sense of > self-identification — that cause it, until ultimately all traces of > self-identification are gone and all that's left is limitless freedom. > > "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but > a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, > leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of > self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of > such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's > experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self? [endquote] Thanks for posting this Tep and bringing balance to this 'hot topic'. self no-self both self and no-self neither self nor no-self These are all just logical outcomes of thought! The problem is clinging, plain and simple. All else is just thought and clinging to views. 57750 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Concentration nilovg Hi Ken, Seeing realities as they are, this is right understanding of the eightfold Path which is assisted by right concentration of the eightfold Path. Nina. op 12-04-2006 05:26 schreef ken_aitch op ken_aitch@...: 'For it has been said: 'He who is concentrated knows, sees according to truth.' > I won't ask you to elaborate on the meaning of "manifestation" where > it applies to paramattha dhammas. 57751 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 4/12/06 9:59:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > In any case, Sarah, are you saying that there is no practice one can > engage in to become a more loving person? I'm not talking about mere "Let it > be > so!" intentions and affirmations, but about extended and serious work to > open > one's heart. > =================== To expand a bit on my point, Sarah: I believe that the no-control aspect of anatta can be overdrawn in an unhelpful way. The statement of yours that prompted my reply was "When there is some understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will." Now, one could similarly make the statement "When there is some understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that hunger (for food) is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will." Of course, one cannot simply say or think "Let me be hungry!," rather like "the Lord God" saying "Let there be light!", but the thing is, Sarah, that the sensation of hunger (and the resultant craving) *can* be made to arise at will (with the support of other conditions) by turning ones's thoughts to memories of delicious foods, or by purposely exposing oneself to the odor of delicious foods being prepared, or, more extendedly, by fasting for a day or so (or by a combination of these). My point is that conventional volitional actions do, indeed, have consequences. I hasten to add, to anticipate the matter being brought up (as a red herring, in my opinion), that underlying those conventional actions and their consequences are, of course, paramattha dhammas. (All that ever actually occur are paramattha dhammas!) But that is a separate and irrelevant issue. It happens, BTW, that in the cases under discussion, though the conditioning actions involved (such as the fasting) are quite conventional, the resultant phenomena, namely metta and hunger sensations, happen to be paramattha dhammas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57752 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:56am Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy indriyabala Dear Eric (and all) - [I am posting this again, after waitingover an hour and the first post still did not show up.] You have rightly hit the old nail on its head again : >E: self no-self both self and no-self neither self nor no-self >These are all just logical outcomes of thought! The problem is clinging, plain and simple. All else is just thought and clinging to views. Tep: The famous saying by the Lord Buddha in the Anattalakkhana Sutta: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self' is about the not-self view of the five aggregates -- such should be seen with one's own knowledge. Cinging to 'atta' (self) is known as 'Attavaadupaadaana'; it is synonymous with `sakkaaya-ditthi' which is `personality-belief' -- seeing a being/person in the five aggregates. On the other hand, seeing a being/person as 'only five heaps' is not an extreme view -- it is a right view with detachment of the five aggregates, seeing each of them as 'anatta' in the Anattalakkhana Sutta's sense. To be kind enough to offer a help to a suffering person is a kusala dhamma known as metta. More benefit is gain when 'metta' is supported by the 'not-self view', I think. Thanks for your comment. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Dear Tep & All, > > > > Just read the following passage and please tell us what you think. > > > > "If you develop the path of virtue, concentration, and discernment > to > > a state of calm well-being and use that calm state to look at > > experience in terms of the Noble Truths, the questions that occur > to > > the mind are not "Is there a self? What is my self?" but > rather "Am I > > suffering stress because I'm holding onto this particular > phenomenon? > > Is it really me, myself, or mine? If it's stressful but not really > me > > or mine, why hold on?" These last questions merit straightforward > > answers, as they then help you to comprehend stress and to chip > away > > at the attachment and clinging — the residual sense of > > self-identification — that cause it, until ultimately all traces of > > self-identification are gone and all that's left is limitless > freedom. > > (snipped) 57753 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 0:03pm Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's ,, correction. indriyabala Hi, all - I would like to change 'metta' in the previous post to 'karuna' : > To be kind enough to offer a help to a suffering person is a kusala > dhamma known as metta. More benefit is gain when 'metta' is supported by the 'not-self view', I think. So it should read : To be kind enough to offer a help to a suffering person is a kusala > dhamma known as karuna. More benefit is gain when 'karuna' is supported by the 'not-self view', I think. Thanks. Metta & Karuna, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Dear Eric (and all) - > > [I am posting this again, after waitingover an hour and the first post > still did not show up.] > > You have rightly hit the old nail on its head again : > 57755 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 0:14pm Subject: Re: Three Suttas about Atta indriyabala Hi Eric - Thank you for the explanation! >E: > The mind thru this process of > awakening to this inescapable > fact comes to nibbida. But we can > say that nibbida is this whole > process of realizing the first > and second noble truth. > Well said, Eric. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Tep: Could you explain a little bit why nibbida is "this whole > > process"? I think nibbida is a knowledge (nana) that is > conditioned by > > a thorough understanding of a danger (or unsatisfactoriness) of a > > phenomenon (e.g. feeling). > > Yes that is what I was saying but > I was coming at it more from an > experiential point of view. This > disenchantment arises because of > the disenchanting process. One > begins to realise the stressful > nature of the aggregates at a > very fundamental level. They hurt!! > They are dukkha!! You cannot look > away from this fundamental fact. > Where ever you turn, you see and > feel this. There is no escaping it! (snipped) 57756 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? onco111 I agree with you, Howard, that we can use conventional, "I"-filled intention to bring about all kinds of akusala by planning, conventional effort, fasting schemes, precepts, etc. The trouble is that kusala is of an entirely different quality, arises quite infrequently, and never arises via planning, conventional effort, fasting schemes, precepts, New Year's resolutions, etc. These things may or may not "make me a better person", but that conventional understanding of "better person" does not mean more kusala or sati or panya. Kusala, when it does arise, resounds through a person's whole being, and reverberations can often be felt for some time afterward. However, the reverberations are frequently not kusala at all, but vipaka and clinging/craving for more kusala and pride in the kusala that arose and passed away. The kusala is only free to arise when all ideas of planning, convetional effort, precepts, etc. are put aside. I know that very many people have the idea: "I'm basically a good person. Sure, sometimes akusala arises, but not all that often." A read a wonderful story in the newspaper awhile back about a young man who'd been in and out of juvenile detention and prison for robbery, assault, drug dealing, etc. He claimed that he was really a good, trustworthy person at heart and didn't really understand why people were afraid of him and why he was put in jail. We may not all steal and beat people up, but we still love ourselves so dearly that it is very difficult to see that we are basically greedy, hateful, and ignorant at heart. We even imagine that we have the power to push lobha/dosa/moha into retreat to allow kusala to arise. Is the mighty "I" so powerful it can negate itself? Cause itself to retreat? Ai-yo! It would be a very different world were it true... Metta, Dan > =================== > To expand a bit on my point, Sarah: I believe that the no- control > aspect of anatta can be overdrawn in an unhelpful way. > The statement of yours that prompted my reply was "When there is some > understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta is also > anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will." Now, one > could similarly make the statement "When there is some understanding that all > dhammas are anatta, we can also see that hunger (for food) is also anatta, a > conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will." Of course, one cannot > simply say or think "Let me be hungry!," rather like "the Lord God" saying > "Let there be light!", but the thing is, Sarah, that the sensation of hunger (and > the resultant craving) *can* be made to arise at will (with the support of > other conditions) by turning ones's thoughts to memories of delicious foods, or > by purposely exposing oneself to the odor of delicious foods being prepared, > or, more extendedly, by fasting for a day or so (or by a combination of these). > My point is that conventional volitional actions do, indeed, have > consequences. > I hasten to add, to anticipate the matter being brought up (as a red > herring, in my opinion), that underlying those conventional actions and their > consequences are, of course, paramattha dhammas. (All that ever actually occur > are paramattha dhammas!) But that is a separate and irrelevant issue. It > happens, BTW, that in the cases under discussion, though the conditioning actions > involved (such as the fasting) are quite conventional, the resultant phenomena, > namely metta and hunger sensations, happen to be paramattha dhammas. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > 57757 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - There is much of what you say in the following that I agree with. Where we disagree is in the matter of conventional actions that have useful and wholesome consequences. I believe that this happens very often ("all the time" in fact), and moreover, that the Buddha repeatedly urged such conventional action - the four aspects of right effort, acting morally, meditating, and so on, being examples. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/12/06 3:44:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > > I agree with you, Howard, that we can use conventional, "I"-filled > intention to bring about all kinds of akusala by planning, > conventional effort, fasting schemes, precepts, etc. The trouble is > that kusala is of an entirely different quality, arises quite > infrequently, and never arises via planning, conventional effort, > fasting schemes, precepts, New Year's resolutions, etc. These things > may or may not "make me a better person", but that conventional > understanding of "better person" does not mean more kusala or sati or > panya. Kusala, when it does arise, resounds through a person's whole > being, and reverberations can often be felt for some time afterward. > However, the reverberations are frequently not kusala at all, but > vipaka and clinging/craving for more kusala and pride in the kusala > that arose and passed away. The kusala is only free to arise when all > ideas of planning, convetional effort, precepts, etc. are put aside. > > I know that very many people have the idea: "I'm basically a good > person. Sure, sometimes akusala arises, but not all that often." A > read a wonderful story in the newspaper awhile back about a young man > who'd been in and out of juvenile detention and prison for robbery, > assault, drug dealing, etc. He claimed that he was really a good, > trustworthy person at heart and didn't really understand why people > were afraid of him and why he was put in jail. We may not all steal > and beat people up, but we still love ourselves so dearly that it is > very difficult to see that we are basically greedy, hateful, and > ignorant at heart. We even imagine that we have the power to push > lobha/dosa/moha into retreat to allow kusala to arise. Is the > mighty "I" so powerful it can negate itself? Cause itself to retreat? > Ai-yo! It would be a very different world were it true... > > Metta, > > Dan > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57758 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:01pm Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy onco111 Hi Tep, Just one quick correction that you may or may not agree with, viz. helping a suffering person may or may not be accompanied/motivated by metta. Also, it is good to keep in mind metta needn't be accompanied by Right View, but it cannot be accompanied by Wrong View (as you well know. As for me, I can't hear it too much). Metta, Dan > To be kind enough to offer a help to a suffering person is a kusala > dhamma known as metta. More benefit is gain when 'metta' is supported > by the 'not-self view', I think. 57759 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? onco111 Hi Howard, H: Where we disagree is in the matter of conventional actions that have useful and wholesome consequences. D: Useful and "wholesome" consequences to be sure (conventionally speaking, of course). But kusala? Never! > the Buddha repeatedly urged such conventional > action - the four aspects of right effort, acting morally, meditating, and so on, being examples. Two issues: 1. Was he really exhorting us to conventional notions of "right effort", etc.? 2. If on occasion he does urge conventional action (as I think he does), we still must consider the purpose. There are at least two possibilies besides "you can cause kusala to arise via such-and-such conventional effort". First, there are useful and (conventionally) wholesome actions that are to be encouraged because they make for a more civil and pleasant culture. Second, in some cases the more conventional effort is put into generating kusala, the more clear it becomes that conventional effort is not kusala. In other words, intensive conventional effort can illuminate the futility of conventional effort. Metta, Dan P.S. We've been discussing these very issues for years, but I still find it helpful to review every once in awhile. :) 57760 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 4/12/06 4:22:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Hi Howard, > H: Where we disagree is in the matter of conventional actions that > have useful and wholesome consequences. > > D: Useful and "wholesome" consequences to be sure (conventionally > speaking, of course). But kusala? Never! > > >the Buddha repeatedly urged such conventional > >action - the four aspects of right effort, acting morally, > meditating, and so on, being examples. > > Two issues: > 1. Was he really exhorting us to conventional notions of "right > effort", etc.? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. :-) -------------------------------------- > > 2. If on occasion he does urge conventional action (as I think he > does), we still must consider the purpose. There are at least two > possibilies besides "you can cause kusala to arise via such-and-such > conventional effort". First, there are useful and (conventionally) > wholesome actions that are to be encouraged because they make for a > more civil and pleasant culture. Second, in some cases the more > conventional effort is put into generating kusala, the more clear it > becomes that conventional effort is not kusala. In other words, > intensive conventional effort can illuminate the futility of > conventional effort. -------------------------------------------- Howard: There is a third: to purify the mind. How does it go? Something along the lines of "Do no harm, do good, and purify the mind"? Dan, it is so crystal clear that the Buddha recommended hosts of conventional activities to train and purify the mind! I fail to see how anyone can read the suttas and not see this! What is studying the Dhamma if not a "conventional activity"? That seems to be the only conventional activity that soe of the DSG folks consider "practice". The question of that uniqueness aside, that IS a conventional activity! Should it not be engaged in, Dan, or, if it should, is that so merely because it is a "useful and (conventionally) wholesome action that is to be encouraged because it makes for a more civil and pleasant culture," or because engaging in that "intensive conventional effort can illuminate the futility of conventional effort"? --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Dan > > P.S. We've been discussing these very issues for years, but I still > find it helpful to review every once in awhile. :) > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57761 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:48pm Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy indriyabala Hi, Dan D. - Thank you for the correction. I realize that there is a lot for me to learn about kusala and right view as well. > > T: To be kind enough to offer a help to a suffering person is a kusala dhamma known as metta. More benefit is gain when 'metta' is supported by the 'not-self view', I think. > >Dan D. : > > Just one quick correction that you may or may not agree with, viz. > helping a suffering person may or may not be accompanied/motivated by > metta. Also, it is good to keep in mind metta needn't be accompanied by Right View, but it cannot be accompanied by Wrong View (as you well > know. As for me, I can't hear it too much). > Tep: Perhaps, karuna is more suitable in this situation. In any case, I see your point that right view may not arise with metta/karuna. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ====== 57762 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:24pm Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? indriyabala Hi Dan D. (and Howard, Sarah) - I thank you and Howard for the nice discussion. >Dan D. : >The kusala is only free to arise when all ideas of planning, conventional effort, precepts, etc. are put aside. Tep: Do you remember the famous Maha-cattarisaka Sutta? "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right resolve. [MN 117] I am sure that right resolve(samma-sankappo)is a kusala dhamma. Is it possible for you to develop right resolve by "putting aside" intention and effort to abandon wrong resolve? Can you enter into right resolve without the help from right view, right mindfulness and right effort? Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > I agree with you, Howard, that we can use conventional, "I"-filled > intention to bring about all kinds of akusala by planning, > conventional effort, fasting schemes, precepts, etc. The trouble is > that kusala is of an entirely different quality, arises quite > infrequently, and never arises via planning, conventional effort, > fasting schemes, precepts, New Year's resolutions, etc. These things > may or may not "make me a better person", but that conventional > understanding of "better person" does not mean more kusala or sati or > panya. Kusala, when it does arise, resounds through a person's whole > being, and reverberations can often be felt for some time afterward. > However, the reverberations are frequently not kusala at all, but > vipaka and clinging/craving for more kusala and pride in the kusala > that arose and passed away. The kusala is only free to arise when all > ideas of planning, convetional effort, precepts, etc. are put aside. > (snipped) 57763 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:43pm Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? icarofranca Dear ab! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > A theory: > > If you believe there is no self, then it makes it easier to >practice 'metta' (loving kindness)? If you believe it is 'I' who is >sending forth metta, it is more stressful? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Inside our brains there is a specific area that rules the concept of "I": it was developed by gradual evolution as a tool for external world interaction, besides reason and intellect... but could you call a sofisticated tool as "Self", "Soul" or "I" ? Thanks the natural bugs of human brain, this specific area gains an underserved priority and concepts like "Self" raise up like trees on a rain forest. Metta is a kusala dhamma that is not necessarily conected with ideas of "I", so sending forth Metta by a kusala accumulation or for "I" is just indifferent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > When you have anger, it is only anger that exists at that time, no >'I' behind that anger. This is the Abhidhamma way? The Abhidhamma >says there are mental qualities, some in the good group (one of them, >for example: 'non-hate' or whatever, which can be 'metta' also?), >some in the bad group (one of them, for example: 'hate' or whatever, >which I call 'anger' here), and some that exist in both the bad and >good groups? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There are Abdhidhamma and Suttanta ways to face this question: the Abhidhamma´s can be clearly exposed by the Patthanapali´s first chapter, with its description of the Paccayas, or conditioned/unconditioned causes of all effects... so the good and bad mental qualities are produced by an imbricated flow of causes and effects, prompted and unprompted - kusala dhammas can be bhumisu vippakas, kusala vedanas, etc or even Rupa and Nibbana, but there´s no "Self" taking reins on these matters. At the Abhidhamma´s Dhatukatha Volume there are many interesting passages that make a stand on these ideas: "Sangahitena Asangaha Dhamma...Asangahitena Sangaha Dhamma..." one begins with a dhamma produced by certain events and ends with events of different kind and vice-versa..or not at all! Good Dhammas don´t take notice of Bad Dhammas at the same time...but you can get Abhyakatha Dhammas - indifferent, neither one good thing or bad. The essence of this reasoning is there´s no "Self" or "I" heading over such processes: Metta can be produced even for such illusory conventional concepts and give forth its kusala effects without any stress! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That's my writing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep Boostin´! Mettaya Ícaro 57764 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? indriyabala Hi Howard, Sarah and Dan D. (Attn. Nina, Han)- Howard made an interesting point that might be disagreeable to both Sarah and Dan D. : >Howard : >It happens, BTW, that in the cases under discussion, though the conditioning actions involved (such as the fasting) are quite conventional, the resultant phenomena, namely metta and hunger sensations, happen to be paramattha dhammas. > >Sarah : > >When there is some understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will. Tep: Howard also referenced AN XI.16 Metta Sutta without providing a detail. So I visited the source at ATI and, not surprisingly, found the following short passage, that I think, may contradict to Sarah's and Dan's belief. "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well-undertaken, eleven benefits can be expected. Which eleven? [endquote] Tep: This sutta clearly states that awareness-release(ceto-vimutti), a paramattha-dhamma, can be "made to arise at will". How should such wrong understanding of mine be corrected? {:>) Yours truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 4/12/06 7:52:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > > > If you believe there is no self, then it makes it easier to practice > > >'metta' (loving kindness)? > > ..... > > S: What do you mean by 'practice 'metta' '? When there is some > > understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta is > > also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will. > > (snipped) 57765 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? icarofranca Hi Tep! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is > cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a >basis, > given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well-undertaken, >eleven > benefits can be expected. Which eleven? [endquote] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Tep!!! I was just trying to recall to memory this specific passage omn Suttas about Metta!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tep: This sutta clearly states that awareness-release(ceto-vimutti), a > paramattha-dhamma, can be "made to arise at will". How should such > wrong understanding of mine be corrected? {:>) -------------------------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact Metta raised by an illusory "Self" or by will or by Pañña has the same effect: bhumisu Vipaka. Mettaya Ícaro 57766 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:06pm Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? indriyabala Hi Icaro (and all) - I have an uninteresting remark to add to your interesting comment: >Icaro: >.. so the good and bad mental qualities are produced by an imbricated flow of causes and effects, prompted and unprompted - kusala dhammas can be bhumisu vippakas, kusala vedanas, etc or even Rupa and Nibbana, but there´s no "Self" taking reins on these matters. Tep: There is an easy way to explain why there is no "Self" taking reins on the "causes and effects, prompted and unprompted - kusala dhammas can be bhumisu vippakas, kusala vedanas, etc or even Rupa and Nibbana". Because "these matters" are in the domain of ultimate realities that are not seen by the worldlings (they can be seen by the Dhamma eye), but people/beings are always seen in the domain of conventional truths. By the same token, in the micro-world of atomic particles no physical objects (or beings) are seen; while no atomic particles are seen by the naked eyes in the real world (but they can be seen by an appropriate instrument). Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Dear ab! > > (snipped) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There are Abdhidhamma and Suttanta ways to face this question: the > Abhidhamma´s can be clearly exposed by the Patthanapali´s first > chapter, with its description of the Paccayas, or > conditioned/unconditioned causes of all effects... so the good and bad > mental qualities are produced by an imbricated flow of causes and > effects, prompted and unprompted - kusala dhammas can be bhumisu > vippakas, kusala vedanas, etc or even Rupa and Nibbana, but there´s > no "Self" taking reins on these matters. At the Abhidhamma´s > Dhatukatha Volume there are many interesting passages that make a > stand on these ideas: "Sangahitena Asangaha Dhamma...Asangahitena > Sangaha Dhamma..." one begins with a dhamma produced by certain events > and ends with events of different kind and vice-versa..or not at all! > Good Dhammas don´t take notice of Bad Dhammas at the same > time...but you can get Abhyakatha Dhammas - indifferent, neither one > good thing or bad. > The essence of this reasoning is there´s no "Self" or "I" heading > over such processes: Metta can be produced even for such illusory > conventional concepts and give forth its kusala effects without any > stress! (snipped) 57767 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy okay, or bad? lbidd2 Hi a b, Thanissaro's idea is that "no self" is a metaphysical view (opinion) but "not self" is a characteristic of dhammas that can be experienced. To think there is no self is one thing, but to see that that thought is not me or mine is another. Regarding metta, my guess is that arahants don't actually practice metta. As a benefit for oneself it would be unnecessary for them. As a benefit for others, whatever their interactions with others they are naturally metta. The Buddha taught the practice of metta to ordinary people so they wouldn't be so hateful and ignorant. If you find yourself stumbling over your 'self' in the practice of metta, you might look into what exactly there is to trip over. Larry 57768 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? hantun1 Dear Tep (Sarah, Howard), Tep: This sutta clearly states that awareness-release (ceto-vimutti), a paramattha-dhamma, can be "made to arise at will". How should such wrong understanding of mine be corrected? {:>) -------------------- Han: You do not have any wrong understanding. The following is Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation (with my Pali inserts) for AN XI 16 Metta sutta. If, O monks, the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness (mettaaya bhikkhave ceto-vimuttiyaa) is developed and cultivated (aasevitaaya, bhaavitaaya), frequently practiced (bahuliikataaya), made one’s vehicle (yaaniikataaya) and foundation (vatthukataaya), firmly established (anutthitaaya), consolidated (paricitaaya), and properly undertaken (susamaaraddhaaya), eleven blessings may be expected. If one cannot arrive at the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa), with one’s will and efforts, why the Buddha would utter the following words: (aasevitaaya), (bhaavitaaya), (bahuliikataaya), (yaaniikataaya), (vatthukataaya), (anutthitaaya), (paricitaaya), (susamaaraddhaaya), which are all associated with one’s efforts. And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will, what is the point in the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake various activities as shown above? With metta and deepest respect, Han --- indriyabala wrote: > Hi Howard, Sarah and Dan D. (Attn. Nina, Han)- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Tep: This sutta clearly states that > awareness-release(ceto-vimutti), a > paramattha-dhamma, can be "made to arise at will". > How should such > wrong understanding of mine be corrected? {:>) > Yours truly, > Tep > === 57769 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy okay, or bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/12/06 9:17:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Regarding metta, my guess is that arahants don't actually practice > metta. As a benefit for oneself it would be unnecessary for them. As a > benefit for others, whatever their interactions with others they are > naturally metta. The Buddha taught the practice of metta to ordinary > people so they wouldn't be so hateful and ignorant. If you find yourself > stumbling over your 'self' in the practice of metta, you might look into > what exactly there is to trip over. > ===================== Very good, Larry! Well said, IMO! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 57770 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Han (and Sarah & Tep) - In a message dated 4/12/06 10:07:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hantun1@... writes: > Dear Tep (Sarah, Howard), > > Tep: > This sutta clearly states that awareness-release > (ceto-vimutti), a paramattha-dhamma, can be "made to > arise at will". How should such wrong understanding of > mine be corrected? {:>) > -------------------- > > Han: > You do not have any wrong understanding. > > The following is Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation > (with my Pali inserts) for AN XI 16 Metta sutta. > > If, O monks, the liberation of the mind by > loving-kindness (mettaaya bhikkhave ceto-vimuttiyaa) > is developed and cultivated (aasevitaaya, > bhaavitaaya), frequently practiced (bahuliikataaya), > made one’s vehicle (yaaniikataaya) and foundation > (vatthukataaya), firmly established (anutthitaaya), > consolidated (paricitaaya), and properly undertaken > (susamaaraddhaaya), eleven blessings may be expected. > > If one cannot arrive at the liberation of the mind by > loving-kindness (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa), with one’s > will and efforts, why the Buddha would utter the > following words: (aasevitaaya), (bhaavitaaya), > (bahuliikataaya), (yaaniikataaya), (vatthukataaya), > (anutthitaaya), (paricitaaya), (susamaaraddhaaya), > which are all associated with one’s efforts. > > And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that > cannot be made to arise at will, what is the point in > the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake various > activities as shown above? > > With metta and deepest respect, > Han > > ============================ It is always pleasant to read statements of agreement, and that makes it less than pleasant to then reply in turn with some disagreement! ;-) But I'm afraid I don't entirely agree what you wrote, Han. I very much like all the foregoing, Han, with the exception of your apparent questioning of metta being anatta. That part bothers me. All dhammas are anatta, i.e., are not-self/empty-of-own-being, and also are impersonal in the sense of not being part of, owned by, or controllable by any actual agent/being, with metta being no exception. So, to jump to metta being atta is to leap too far. Also, I would like to mention at this point that the role of volition in the unfolding of events, while critically important, is a subtle matter, and how that role is be understood depends a great deal on exactly what one means by "arising at will". While conditions can indeed be willfully set in motion to cultivate the propensity to metta, for example, it is a lengthy chain of clusters of conditions that is required to achieve that, and while one who already has the propensity to metta can cause it to arise on a given occasion by simply turning the mind in the proper direction (of thought), generally no one can make metta arise at will by merely thinking "Let there be metta." Specific objective conditions are required, and not mere wishing. In general, some conditions can be directly made to arise by power of will, but even these require additional supportive conditions besides volition, and most significant conditions require that a whole complex sequence of events occur in order for them to arise. Now, perhaps I misunderstand you when you write "And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will, what is the point in the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake various activities as shown above?" If I do misunderstand this, then some of what I wrote above was pointless, and so I would appreciate being corrected. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 57771 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? hantun1 Dear Howard, You wrote: Now, perhaps I misunderstand you when you write "And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will, what is the point in the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake various activities as shown above?" If I do misunderstand this, then some of what I wrote above was pointless, and so I would appreciate being corrected. Han: I have asked the question: "And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at will, what is the point in the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake various activities as shown above?" And you have presented your views why you do not agree with me. That is fine. I do not expect everybody to agree with me. And I cannot and should not correct another person’s views. I respect your views, Howard, whether I agree with it or not. With metta and deepest respect, Han 57772 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:04pm Subject: How to be a Real Buddhist on Observance Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance? Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element- This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here. A public list of this new Saddhamma-Sangha is here! The New Noble Community of Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Join Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 57773 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 421 - mindfulness/sati (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati continued) Mindfulness is non-forgetful of what is kusala and it keeps us from akusala. Also those who do not know about the Dhamma are able to perform wholesome deeds, but it is through the Dhamma that one can know more precisely what is kusala and what is akusala. Association with the good friend in Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma and considering it are most helpful conditions for mindfulness in the field of dåna, síla, samatha and insight, thus, for all levels of mindfulness. The generosity, the patience and all the other good qualities of the true friend in Dhamma can remind one to develop such qualities as well. ***** (Ch26 - mindfulness/sati to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 57774 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? nilovg Dear Han, thank you for inserting all the Pali. I am just reading to Lodewijk Kh. Sujin's book on Metta which I translated. There are many sutta quotes on Metta in this book. I just read to him about the eleven blessings. As to your question, the Abhidhamma can help us here. There is will (cetanaa), there is effort (viriya), of course! But these are cetasikas that arise and fall away immediately together with the cittas they accompany. They can only arise when the proper conditions are present. We should develop mettaa when we are with other people and it is understanding that knows its characteristic. How easily we may confuse mettaa and selfish affection. Mettaa can also be a meditation subject of Samatha, but the meditator should know precisely its true characteristic. Paññaa is indispensable. Jhaana attained by means of this subject can be a vehicle for vipassanaa. The meditator should be aware of nama and rupa when he has emerged from jhaana so that he can realize them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Nina. op 13-04-2006 04:06 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that > cannot be made to arise at will, what is the point in > the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake various > activities as shown above? 57775 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all in this thread, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: What do you mean by 'practice 'metta' '? When there is some > > understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta > is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at > will. > ======================== H:> In any case, Sarah, are you saying that there is no practice >one can engage in to become a more loving person? I'm not talking about >mere "Let it be so!" intentions and affirmations, but about extended and >serious work to open one's heart. .... S: What is this ‘extended and serious work’ if it’s not a combination of various cittas, cetasikas and rupas? It seems that however much we say that all dhammas are anatta, we still try to have a rule or special way to help us have more awareness, more metta, more good of all kinds. I would say, forget about all these rules and methods and instead just understand what is really meant when we say all namas and rupas are anatta. Each moment of seeing or hearing now, each moment of thinking, of intention, of effort, of metta, of attachment – all are conditioned. Whatever arises is conditioned. Isn’t this what we learn in the Anattalakkhana Sutta which was quoted recently? When we think, ‘I’m opening my heart’ or ‘I will try to make an effort or special intention’, all the cetasikas are already doing their jobs at that moment of thinking. They are arising together, performing their functions and then falling away immediately. There’s no time or place for anything else to be done at all, because thinking is already thinking like this. Most the time, it seems that instead of being aware of the present thinking, seeing, visible object or any other presently appearing dhamma, we’re either planning for another kind of dhamma or somehow reviewing the past dhammas. Isn't this indicative of the ignorance and doubt we live our lives in? We speak about anatta but still cling to an idea that we can develop metta and other good qualities, when really it’s just the conditioned dhammas, such as metta, which develop when there are the right causes for them to develop. So, no, we cannot practice anything. But, yes, understanding can develop and develop and eventually even experience nibbana. Without right understanding of dhammas, there can of course be good sila or generosity according to our inclinations and tendencies, but there cannot be any development of kusala at all, not even samatha development. And without understanding cittas, cetasikas and rupas as being ‘the world’, there will always be an idea of doing something or setting a rule for ourselves to follow with an idea of ‘Someone’. You refer to following various conventional actions to support such understanding, but I see this as merely hoping, expecting and increasing our attachments again instead of just understanding the dhamma appearing now. What we take for being those conventional actions are only moments of seeing, thinking, likes, dislikes and other namas. They are all conditioned, even now as we speak. No one can change them at all or stop them arising. So if we are now planning to have metta, considering our strategies and practices for metta to arise more often, the reality is the thinking and hoping and intending which are of course very appealing to our desires – quite different from metta itself. K.Sujin talks about how well-established sa~n~naa (perception) of conditioned realities has to be in order to condition direct awareness. I think this is so true. Otherwise, as she says, we’re always living in the future or past. Such firm sa~n~naa of dhammas is conditioned by hearing, considering and understanding what is real right now, not by an idea of making it happen at all. No one can condition seeing now, no one can condition metta, no one can condition right effort. The impatience, the frustration, the thinking about being helpless are merely more conditioned dhammas which can also be known when they arise. When we read good suttas, such as these you give links to on metta, we have to appreciate that the meanings are deep and subtle: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-016.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#khp-9 ... Without any understanding of the Abhidhamma, of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, there’s always going to be an idea of someone studying, someone developing metta, someone making an effort. Yes, metta can be and ‘should’ be developed. But it is only developed with detachment and by clearly understanding its quality and value. It’s never by wishing to develop it or trying to make it arise. Attachment of any kind, such as to having any kind of result, having any kind of mental states arise or to being a better person, merely hinders and prevents metta and other wholesome states from arising. Metta with an open heart:), Sarah ======= 57776 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation: “As to your question, the Abhidhamma can help us here. There is will (cetanaa), there is effort (viriya), of course! But these are cetasikas that arise and fall away immediately together with the cittas they accompany. They can only arise when the proper conditions are present. We should develop mettaa when we are with other people and it is understanding that knows its characteristic. How easily we may confuse mettaa and selfish affection. Mettaa can also be a meditation subject of Samatha, but the meditator should know precisely its true characteristic. Paññaa is indispensable. Jhaana attained by means of this subject can be a vehicle for vipassanaa. The meditator should be aware of nama and rupa when he has emerged from jhaana so that he can realize them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa.” ------------------------------ I completely agree with every word you have written. There is absolutely no disagreement. On the other hand, in AN XI 16 Metta sutta, the Buddha has given definite instructions to the bhikkhus that to achieve the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa), they have to do the following: (aasevitaaya), (bhaavitaaya), (bahuliikataaya), (yaaniikataaya), (vatthukataaya), (anutthitaaya), (paricitaaya), (susamaaraddhaaya). Therefore, the duty of the monks is if they want to achieve (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa) they will have to follow the Buddha’s instructions. Whether they achieve (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa) will depend on (as you have rightly said) whether proper conditions are present or not. But nobody can tell when those proper conditions will be present. Therefore, the duty of the monks is to go ahead and do it. When the proper conditions are present they will achieve their goal. If there are no proper conditions they will not. But at least they will have followed the Buddha’s instructions, and to follow the Buddha’s instructions is what every bhikkhu should do. With metta and deepest respect, Han 57777 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:57am Subject: Re: lunch with Charles Da Costa (Charles D):-)) icarofranca Hi people at DSG!!! Charles D is indeed a good pal! His photos and Sarah´s post showed up his life´s trajectory as very interesting indeed: like many of my friends here at Brazil (and myself too) he gets a bit of Kung Fu, other bit of Tibetan or Zen...and then ends at DSG!!!! Lucky guy!!!! And now I have got free time to hear the Bodhigaya snips posted...it´s only a little sip of Dhamma, but Mme. Sujin exposition of certain points of Doctrine are very, very precious! ( I´ve reserved already my copy of Paryatti´s Atthasalini on Amazon books: an ultimate food for...huh..."Soul"...) Mettaya and kisses! 57778 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:47am Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad?.. Is metta not anatta? indriyabala Hi, Han and Howard - In all Dhamma discussion truth is eyond agreement or disagreement. > > Howard wrote: > Now, perhaps I misunderstand you when you write > "And if metta is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma > that cannot be made to arise at will, what is the > point in the Buddha teaching the monks to undertake > various activities as shown above?" > If I do misunderstand this, then some of what I wrote > above was pointless, and so I would appreciate being > corrected. > > Han: > > That is fine. > I do not expect everybody to agree with me. > And I cannot and should not correct another person's > views. I respect your views, Howard, whether I agree with it > or not. > Dear Han, did you mean to say that metta was not anatta? I am not so sure that was what you meant. Respectfully, Tep ======= 57779 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ... Dear Sarah I deeply disagree with this message of you, especially with the consequence on ethical and other volitional behavior it has. Do you really not see the paradox you (and the ever again quoted Sujin) create. I'm afraid what you think 'volition' is, is something as what I think of it. But this discussion is so old, so tiring: it's about the philosophical question how 'free will' and 'everything is determinated' (or 'conditioned') are combinable. My opinion: I prefer the idea that they are, even if this is possible an illusion; that is not a logical but a ethical choice. Metta Joop 57780 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad?.. Is metta not anatta? hantun1 Dear Tep, There are two aspects. (1) metta is anatta (2) metta cannot be made to arise at will. My point is I do not argue the first point. But what I want to say is metta can be made to arise at will if one tries to do so. If one cannot make metta to arise at will how can one radiate metta to other people? That was my point. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- indriyabala wrote: > > Hi, Han and Howard - >>>>>>>>>>>> > Dear Han, did you mean to say that metta was not > anatta? I am not so > sure that was what you meant. > 57781 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:29am Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's ... ? Contradicting Compromise? indriyabala Hi Sarah and all - >Sarah: >We speak about anatta but still cling to an idea that we can develop metta and other good qualities, when really it's just the conditioned dhammas, such as metta, which develop when there are the right causes for them to develop. ... And without understanding cittas, cetasikas and rupas as being `the world', there will always be an idea of doing something or setting a rule for ourselves to follow with an idea of `Someone'. Tep: Wait a minute ! Without someone's saddha in those 11 benefits there will be no intention (or turning to) metta bhavana in order for developing metta ceto-vimutti. The right resolve (samma-sankappo) of that "someone" is a "right cause" for development of metta ceto-vimutti. I don't believe this right cause just happens by itself. Understanding (right view) of that "someone" is one condition for the right resolve to develop, and there are right mindfulness and right effort too (see MN 117). ................ >S: Yes, metta can be and `should' be developed. But it is only developed with detachment and by clearly understanding its quality and value. It's never by wishing to develop it or trying to make it arise. Tep : This sounds like a little compromise that is a little contradiction to what you wrote above(?). Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard & all in this thread, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > > S: What do you mean by 'practice 'metta' '? When there is some > > > understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta > > is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at > > will. > > ======================== > H:> In any case, Sarah, are you saying that there is no practice > >one can engage in to become a more loving person? I'm not talking about > >mere "Let it be so!" intentions and affirmations, but about extended and > >serious work to open one's heart. > ....(snipped) > > You refer to following various conventional actions to support such > understanding, but I see this as merely hoping, expecting and increasing > our attachments again instead of just understanding the dhamma appearing > now. What we take for being those conventional actions are only moments of > seeing, thinking, likes, dislikes and other namas. They are all > conditioned, even now as we speak. No one can change them at all or stop > them arising. So if we are now planning to have metta, considering our > strategies and practices for metta to arise more often, the reality is the > thinking and hoping and intending which are of course very appealing to > our desires – quite different from metta itself. > (snipped) 57782 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad?.. Is metta not anatta? indriyabala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > There are two aspects. > (1) metta is anatta > (2) metta cannot be made to arise at will. > > My point is I do not argue the first point. > But what I want to say is metta can be made to arise > at will if one tries to do so. > If one cannot make metta to arise at will how can one > radiate metta to other people? > That was my point. > Dear Han - Thank you ten times for the clarification. Your point was a very good one. Sincerely, Tep ====== 57783 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? sarahprocter... Dear Joop & all, Thanks for your comments... --- Joop wrote: > I deeply disagree with this message of you, especially with the > consequence on ethical and other volitional behavior it has. .... S: I'm sure others will agree with you too:). As I see it, by understanding dhammas more and more as being mere dhammas, understanding what kusala is, what akusala is, what vipaka is and so on, there will be greater ethical behaviour of all kinds. We're talking here about the giving up of the idea of self, the clinging to self and the eradication of defilements eventually through such understanding. There is volition at each moment with each citta as you know. Good volitional behaviour only develops when it is understood and its value is appreciated -- not when there is a wishing to/trying to have it arise. At those moments of wishing and trying, there is instead more self-attachment and self-interest. Such self-attachment is what we're very used to already from first thing in the morning to night-time - it doesn't need any developing at all. Does it really seem to you (and others) that those who stress the importance of understanding conditioned dhammas and development (rather than a special doing) really have no appreciation of ethical standards, metta or good deeds of any kind? My experience of living and spending time with these friends has been the complete opposite. Very interesting to read all the different views on this thread....:). Metta, Sarah ======= 57784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi Eric ericlonline wrote: >>[J:] But the development of insight has its own necessary >>factors (as you mention above) and, to my understanding, these do >>not include jhana. >> > > >Really?! You walking a 7 fold path? >8 factors too much for you? :-) > > >... > > >>[J:] Jhana consciousness can form the basis for enlightenment, in >>certain very exceptional circumstances. We find some description of >>this in the suttas (e.g., the anapanasati section of the >>kayanupassana division of the Satipatthana Sutta). >> > >Surely it is in many many suttas, yes? >Besides, Right Concentration is jhana. >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- >samadhi/index.html > > Yes, samma samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is described in terms of the 4 jhanas. But this needs to be understood in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path as a whole. As I see it, the Noble Eightfold Path describes the 8 factors that arise together at a moment of supramundane path consciousness. These factors are momentary mental factors (in Abhidhamma terms, 'cetasikas'). They do not arise as path factors singly, but only in combination. As explained in the texts, they arise in a combination of 5 or 6 factors at moments of mundane path consciousness (i.e., vipassana) or all 8 factors at moments of supramundane path consciousness (any of the 4 stages of enlightenment). There are 2 important implications of this: a/. The first is that the the individual factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not qualities to be developed in isolation. If that were the case, then people who had never heard the teachings, but who believe in kamma, lead a life of good sila, make an effort to avid aksuala, and develop jhaana, would be developing the path (even though they might also believe in a soul ;-)). b/. The second is that the descriptions of the individual factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are descriptions of the mental states of an attainer to the path, not of one aspiring to attain the supramundane path. As regards the path factor of samma samadhi in particluar, I believe that the description of this factor in terms of the 4 jhanas means that, at the moment of actual path consciousness, the concentration factor accompanying the path consciousness is equivalent to the concentration factor that accompanies a moment of jhana consciousness. Here is how it is explained in CMA (Ch I, Guide to #30, 31): "[F]or bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas." Thus, they are *like* the mundane jhanas, although they are not actually so. Jon 57785 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) jonoabb Hi James Thanks for the reference from SN 53:1. buddhatrue wrote: >>[Jon:] All kusala supports the development of insight, and jhana is >>no exception. But the development of insight has its own >>necessary factors (as you mention above) and, to my >>understanding, these do not include jhana. If insight is >>our aim, we need to know more about those necessary factors. >> >>Jhana consciousness can form the basis for enlightenment, in >>certain very exceptional circumstances. We find some >>description of this in the suttas (e.g., the anapanasati >>section of the kayanupassana division of the Satipatthana >>Sutta). But jhana can only form the basis for enlightenment >>if insight has already been developed to a high degree. So >>it is not a case of jhana somehow making insight 'easier' >>(at least, I'm not aware of anything in the texts to that effect). >> >> >How about this sutta I just found while looking in the SN: > >Jhanasamyutta IX.1 > >Bhikkhs, just as the river Ganges slants, slopes, and inclines >toward the east, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the >four jhanas slants, slopes, and inclines towards nibbana. > >Jon, I think that this is saying that jhana makes insight easier- >with the words slants and slopes. > I think the context of the sutta is a monk who (a) as a follower of the Buddha, is already developing insight, and (b) has already attained jhana (see the passage preceding the words you quote above). I can see why it would be said that the mind of such a bhikkhu inclines towards Nibbana. However, I do not see that passage as suggesting that a 'mere mortal' such as you or I who aspires to develop insight can better do so by developing mundane jhana first. That strikes me as being the 'long way round' ;-)) Jon 57786 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: arahat and D.O., Larry jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Okay, so you can't provide a sutta quote to support your point. Jon, >if you had a strong case, you should be able to show where the Buddha >taught what you are saying. > Actually, the sutta I 'can't provide' relates to a point of yours, not mine ;-)) In any event, my point was just to the effect that, as a general rule, the suttas do not draw a distinction between the worldling and the arahant in their references to dhammas and the characteristic of dukkha. >Just as many diverse winds, > Storms here and there across the sky, > So in this very body: > The manifold kinds of feelings arise, > Both pleasant ones and painful ones, > And those neither painful nor pleasant. > Yet when a determined bhikkhu does not > neglect aware and clear comprehension; > Then such intelligent one fully understands > Feelings and all their complex aspects... > Having fully understood feelings, he is freed > of all mental fermentation even in this very life... > Remaining in this state, at the body's breakup, > Such Expert-Master cannot ever be imagined... > > > Source (edited extract): > The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [219] > section 36: On Feeling: Vedana. The Sky: Akasam. 12. > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html > >Notice the line: Having fully understoof feelings, he is freed of all >mental fermentation even in this very life.... > > It is true that for the arahant akusala cittas no longer arise, so he is spared the restlessness and unpleasant feeling that these 'mental fermentations' involve. But the cittas that do arise for him still have the characteristic of dukkha, just as they still have the characteristics of anicca and anatta. Jon 57787 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat sarahprocter... Hi Eric (& Math), You both clearly speak the same language, but I'm rather lost:) --- ericlonline wrote: > > S: So do you see the piti as a tactile object/sensation rather > than as a mental quality? > > It is mainly a physical sensation > associated with the nervous systems > functioning. But awareness makes > everything 'mental' i.e. everything > happens with mind. .... S: Math said he also agreed 'with your idea of spreading piti/rapture. As I understand it, piiti is a mental factor (which can arise with wholesome or unwholesome kinds of consciousness) and here you're talking about the jhana factor. So how can a mental jhana factor ever be 'spread' or ever be 'mainly a physical sensation'? Isn't it correct to say that all that is ever experienced through the body-sense are various combinations of pathavi (solidity/pressure), tejo (temperature) and apo (wind/movement)? And isn't it also correct that the Buddha encouraged us not to be attached to any such experiences? And how does awareness make everything mental? Can it make temperature, i.e heat or cold mental? Yes, I agree that awareness 'happens with the mind'. .... > >S: Is the continued experience of such sensations the path to jhana > as you see it? > > Piti with a hindrance free awareness > accompanied with the other jhana factors > causes jhana to arise. Prior to that, a > whole bunch of other factors come into > play i.e. sila, etc. .... S: In other words, there is no use at all in being attached to or giving consequence to the various sensations in the body experienced? .... > > >S: Are Qigong, reiki and other healing practioners who have such > > experiences realizing jhanas as you understand the term? > > The point I was making to James in this regard > was that doing breath meditation coupled with > my previous experiences with feeling piti in > my hands ..... S: Mental states can cause or condition various sensations in the hands, but let's be clear that piti itself cannot arise in the hands. It's a mental factor. .... > allowed jhana to arise. > Most breath > meditators are not aware of this piti for a few > reasons. 1) their concentration is not strong > enough i.e. their mind is hindered 2) they are > not instructed to look for it. Because I can > muster up good enough concentration and I had > felt this piti before, off cushion, it was easy > and startling to see it once instructed. .... S: I think this is a special meaning of piti and jhana. As you've said, reiki or Qi gong practioners experience what you have described - but I question whether this has anything to do with jhana as taught by the Buddha. ... >Then > it was a matter of pervading this piti throughout > the body. If other practioners have a unhindered > awareness and can muster up the other jhana > factors then they too would be realizing jhana. > The Buddha experienced this 'spontaneoulsly' > as a child while watching a plowing festival > I believe. .... S: Are you sure he pervaded 'this piti throughout' his body? How do you know that the jhana factors you suggest are arising are even wholesome mental qualities - right as opposed to wrong jhana factors? ... > >S: Is this how you understand jhana as used by the Buddha? What do you > > understand to be the meaning of jhana? > > Jhana is a unhindered awareness that > is concentrated to a degree where > absorption into an object of meditation > is made possible. Meaning depends on > context. So I dont know what you are > asking in the second question. .... S: Doesn't jhana mean 'burning up' of defilements, either temporarily through the suppression of the hindrances or completely through the eradication of defilements with lokuttara consciousness? .... > My pleasure. ... S: Thanks for being a good sport with my questions. Math too, you say that 'everything the mind focuses on will be tinged with piti...' As I said, you both speak the same language, but I'm trying to understand this spreading of piti.....Do you see piti as a mental factor or something like, dare I say it, peanut butter which can be spread around?. I'm trying to find some common ground here and apologise if I sound disrespectful at all of what you say or of your experiences - not my intention. Metta, Sarah ======== 57788 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/13/06 4:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard &all in this thread, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >>S: What do you mean by 'practice 'metta' '? When there is some > >>understanding that all dhammas are anatta, we can also see that metta > >is also anatta, a conditioned dhamma that cannot be made to arise at > >will. > >======================== > H:> In any case, Sarah, are you saying that there is no practice > >one can engage in to become a more loving person? I'm not talking about > >mere "Let it be so!" intentions and affirmations, but about extended and > >serious work to open one's heart. > .... > S: What is this ‘extended and serious work’ if it’s not a combination of > various cittas, cetasikas and rupas? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: But, Sarah, why do you ask this when you know that is exactly how I see the matter? As far as talking to me is concerned, this is a non-issue. ------------------------------------------- It seems that however much we say> > that all dhammas are anatta, we still try to have a rule or special way to > help us have more awareness, more metta, more good of all kinds. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha indeed taught us, venerables and laypersons, quite conventionally, to engage in specific actions. (The reality underlying all that is not what it seems - but that is NOT the issue!) Just as an example, the Buddha instructed people, as one technique (!), to do graveyard contemplations! Quite conventional! --------------------------------------------- > > I would say, forget about all these rules and methods and instead just > understand what is really meant when we say all namas and rupas are > anatta. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: What do you mean by "just understand"? Understand the sentences in the Tipitaka? So, you would say to forget about all the many things the Buddha said to do, and "just understand"? For one thing, the Buddha didn't teach a doctrine of study only! He taught a complex process of mind training and purification to *enable* genuine understanding. Does "just understand" come down to a magic finger-snap approach? The ability to "just understand" is an impressive goal that calls for years, a lifetime, or many lifetimes of cultivation ... or a week of literally non-stop and literally perfect investigation of the four foundations of mindfulness, the doing of which, of course, already requires unbelievable prior cultivation. Your "just understand" reminds me of Nancy Reagan's "solution" to the drug problem: Just say "no"! ;-) [She was the wife of one-time U.S. President, Ronald Reagan.] -------------------------------------------- Each moment of seeing or hearing now, each moment of thinking, of> > intention, of effort, of metta, of attachment – all are conditioned. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. So? --------------------------------------------- > Whatever arises is conditioned. Isn’t this what we learn in the > Anattalakkhana Sutta which was quoted recently? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. So? ----------------------------------------------- > > When we think, ‘I’m opening my heart’ or ‘I will try to make an effort or > special intention’, all the cetasikas are already doing their jobs at that > moment of thinking. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thinking "I'm opening my heart" or "May my heart open" is a finger-snap approach. It doesn't cultivate metta, and I have made it clear that I deny that it does. And, that aside, yes, any conventional thinking process actually consists a a huge multitude of mental operations. So what? ---------------------------------------------- They are arising together, performing their functions> > and then falling away immediately. There’s no time or place for anything > else to be done at all, because thinking is already thinking like this. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. So? ---------------------------------------------- > > Most the time, it seems that instead of being aware of the present > thinking, seeing, visible object or any other presently appearing dhamma, > we’re either planning for another kind of dhamma or somehow reviewing the > past dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Planning is important. When planning, plan. Are you suggesting that there should be no planning? Do you believe the Buddha made no plans and preparations? How many times did the Buddha teach his followers to stop and consider before acting? ------------------------------------------- Isn't this indicative of the ignorance and doubt we live our> > lives in? ------------------------------------------ Howard: What? What are you talking about? ----------------------------------------- We speak about anatta but still cling to an idea that we can> > develop metta and other good qualities, when really it’s just the > conditioned dhammas, such as metta, which develop when there are the right > causes for them to develop. ------------------------------------------ Howard: If you mean that "we" cling to an idea of a self/being who engages in cultivation, well "we" may or "we" may not. Unless "we" have already achieved the final goal, "we" are all subject to sense of self. But I personally have no belief in a self who does anything, and so as far as *belief* is concerned, you can feel free to exclude me from that "we". ---------------------------------------- > > So, no, we cannot practice anything. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: That's right, with the emphasis on the "we". But there *is*, and there had darn well better be, practice! And, using normal speech, as "we" all do when it suits us, we do indeed practice all sorts of things all the time. ------------------------------------------ But, yes, understanding can develop> > and develop and eventually even experience nibbana. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: How? ------------------------------------------ Without right> > understanding of dhammas, there can of course be good sila or generosity > according to our inclinations and tendencies, but there cannot be any > development of kusala at all, not even samatha development. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Thus it would behoove us to engage in activities to cultivate understanding! ------------------------------------------- And without> > understanding cittas, cetasikas and rupas as being ‘the world’, there will > always be an idea of doing something or setting a rule for ourselves to > follow with an idea of ‘Someone’. -------------------------------------------- Howard: So, you are recommending a belief system, Sarah? Shall we adopt a catechism? Or, as the Buddha taught us, shall we come and see? (That perfect master spent 45 years of his final lifetime in teaching us how to do that!) ---------------------------------------------- > > You refer to following various conventional actions to support such > understanding, but I see this as merely hoping, expecting and increasing > our attachments again instead of just understanding the dhamma appearing > now. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Then you have studied different suttas than I. ----------------------------------------------- What we take for being those conventional actions are only moments of> > seeing, thinking, likes, dislikes and other namas. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No kidding! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ They are all> > conditioned, even now as we speak. No one can change them at all or stop > them arising. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I recall, one of the wrong views the Buddha spoke of was that actions have no consequences. ------------------------------------------------- So if we are now planning to have metta, considering our> > strategies and practices for metta to arise more often, the reality is the > thinking and hoping and intending which are of course very appealing to > our desires – quite different from metta itself. > > K.Sujin talks about how well-established sa~n~naa (perception) of > conditioned realities has to be in order to condition direct awareness. I > think this is so true. Otherwise, as she says, we’re always living in the > future or past. Such firm sa~n~naa of dhammas is conditioned by hearing, > considering and understanding what is real right now, not by an idea of > making it happen at all. No one can condition seeing now, no one can > condition metta, no one can condition right effort. The impatience, the > frustration, the thinking about being helpless are merely more conditioned > dhammas which can also be known when they arise. > > When we read good suttas, such as these you give links to on metta, we > have to appreciate that the meanings are deep and subtle: > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-016.html > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#khp-9 > ... > Without any understanding of the Abhidhamma, of cittas, cetasikas and > rupas, there’s always going to be an idea of someone studying, someone > developing metta, someone making an effort. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I see. You seem to be saying that knowing Abhidhamma is a sine qua non. Well, I disagree. I see that as a doctrinnaire position. I see it as false. ---------------------------------------- > > Yes, metta can be and ‘should’ be developed. But it is only developed with > detachment and by clearly understanding its quality and value. It’s never > by wishing to develop it or trying to make it arise. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: And again you raise a non-issue. Wishing and finger-snaps won't do it, and I've said that again and again! As for the matter of trying, well, it takes subtle and intelligent effort, as the Buddha taught with the lute example in one sutta and with the middle-way not-struggling-in-the-stream example stated in another sutta, but trying is, indeed, a sine qua non. ------------------------------------------- Attachment of any> > kind, such as to having any kind of result, having any kind of mental > states arise or to being a better person, merely hinders and prevents > metta and other wholesome states from arising. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Until we are arahants, attachments remain. So all are hindered except for arahants. What of it? -------------------------------------------- > > Metta with an open heart:), > > Sarah > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 57789 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? Root-condition. nilovg Dear Han, op 13-04-2006 11:57 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > Therefore, the duty of the monks is if they want to > achieve (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa) they will have to > follow the Buddha’s instructions. Whether they achieve > (mettaaya ceto-vimuttiyaa) will depend on (as you have > rightly said) whether proper conditions are present or > not. But nobody can tell when those proper conditions > will be present. ------- N: The monks at that time had no misunderstandings about the proper development of samatha and vipassanaa. They listened to the Buddha himself, the conditions were most favorable. They learnt when the citta was kusala and when akusala. They developed right understanding of their different cittas. ------ H: Therefore, the duty of the monks is > to go ahead and do it. When the proper conditions are > present they will achieve their goal. If there are no > proper conditions they will not. But at least they > will have followed the Buddha’s instructions, and to > follow the Buddha’s instructions is what every bhikkhu > should do. ------- N: The Buddha knew people's different inclinations and he did not tell the monks: you must develop such or such meditation subject. When he said: develop metta, increase it.. it was an exhortation, an encouragement, but not a command every monk should follow. We read about the daily routine of the Buddha that he gave different kammathaanas to different monks. I would like to add something to the notions of will and effort. These cetasikas can arise with kusala citta but also with akusala citta. Akusala cittas rooted in lobha arise more often than we would ever think. We may want to make an effort for kusala, but in between there are likely to be many moments of lobha-mulacittas accompanied by wrong effort, effort that is akusala. Cittas arise and fall away so fast, we may not even notice that there is citta rooted in lobha with wrong effort. These days I consider root-condition with my Visuddhimagga studies. I am so impressed that this is such a powerful condition, giving a firm foundation and stableness to akusala citta or kusala citta. Like roots that carry the lifesaps upwards in a tree that becomes firm and stable. Citta with attachment is rooted in lobha and moha, ignorance. Ignorance completely blinds us so that we do not notice that attachment arises instead of kusala citta. These roots are so powerful, they condition the akusala citta to be established in akusala, but only when it is present, it falls away immediately. When we have listened to the Dhamma and deeply considered it, there are conditions for kusala citta with paññaa. Many conditions are needed for the arising of even one kusala citta with paññaa, also wholesomeness performed in the past. Living in the right place at the right time, good friendship. When there are conditions for paññaa we need not be discouraged by the amount of akusala cittas that arise in a day. Thanks to the Buddha's teaching their characteristics can be understood, they can be known as conditioned naamas. When paññaa arises the kusala citta is supported by wholesome roots. At that moment there is also alobha, detachment, and adosa, non-aversion. These roots give stableness to the kusala citta, but only for a short moment when it is present, it falls away immediately. Understanding root-condition and the other types of condition on which citta is dependent cures us of the conceit that "we" are master of kusala and can make it arise at will. Mettaa can be further developed if there is right understanding of its conditioned nature. It is right understanding that should be emphasized. Nina. 57790 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop & all, > > Thanks for your comments... > Dear Sarah, all First a typo in my message 54779: "I'm afraid what you think 'volition' is, is something what I think of it." had to be: "I'm afraid what you think 'volition' is, is something else as what I think of it." Then your (little bit rhetoric) question: S: " Does it really seem to you (and others) that those who stress the importance of understanding conditioned dhammas and development (rather than a special doing) really have no appreciation of ethical standards, metta or good deeds of any kind? My experience of living and spending time with these friends has been the complete opposite." J: I know you are somebody with much metta, karuna and mudidat (and more); so my answer is "no" But I'm afraid that you don't analyse your "experience of living and spending time with these friends has been the complete opposite" correct. Forget everything mrs. Sujin told you and contemplate this experience afterwards: it has volition: you feel metta and then you behave with metta. Accept that you have "ethical standards", as you say: accept that thse 'concepts' exist because you want that they exist in you. OK; it are paradoxes, because "you" don't exist, so the next exercise I give you is: accept that paradoxes. Metta Joop > --- Joop wrote: > > > I deeply disagree with this message of you, especially with the > > consequence on ethical and other volitional behavior it has. > .... > S: I'm sure others will agree with you too:). As I see it, by > understanding dhammas more and more as being mere dhammas, understanding > what kusala is, what akusala is, what vipaka is and so on, there will be > greater ethical behaviour of all kinds. We're talking here about the > giving up of the idea of self, the clinging to self and the eradication of > defilements eventually through such understanding. > > There is volition at each moment with each citta as you know. Good > volitional behaviour only develops when it is understood and its value is > appreciated -- not when there is a wishing to/trying to have it arise. At > those moments of wishing and trying, there is instead more self- attachment > and self-interest. Such self-attachment is what we're very used to already > from first thing in the morning to night-time - it doesn't need any > developing at all. > > Does it really seem to you (and others) that those who stress the > importance of understanding conditioned dhammas and development (rather > than a special doing) really have no appreciation of ethical standards, > metta or good deeds of any kind? My experience of living and spending time > with these friends has been the complete opposite. > > Very interesting to read all the different views on this thread....:). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > 57791 From: "ericlonline" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Retreat ericlonline Hi Sarah (& Math), >You both clearly speak the same language, but I'm rather lost:) Amazing isn't it? We have never met but understand each other so clearly and yet you who have much knowledge are lost. Why do you think that is? :-) ------------------ > > S: So do you see the piti as a tactile object/sensation rather > than as a mental quality? > E> It is mainly a physical sensation > associated with the nervous systems > functioning. But awareness makes > everything 'mental' i.e. everything > happens with mind. .... S: Math said he also agreed 'with your idea of spreading piti/rapture. AsI understand it, piiti is a mental factor (which can arise with wholesome or unwholesome kinds of consciousness) and here you're talking about the jhana factor. So how can a mental jhana factor ever be 'spread' or ever be 'mainly a physical sensation'? Here is how our master explains it with a similie.. "Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal (of the senses)... Do you understand now? If not, why not? :-) S>Isn't it correct to say that all that is ever experienced through the body-sense are various combinations of pathavi (solidity/pressure), tejo (temperature) and apo (wind/movement)? That is a different meditation. To deconstruct form into the elements. S>And isn't it also correct that the Buddha encouraged us not to be attached to any such experiences? And? One point of jhana is to develope skill to cause the rapture and sukha to arise at will and meditate on them to 'really experience' their not-self nature. If you cannot get piti and sukha to stabalize to look at them, how are you 'really' going to experience their unsatisfactoriness? >And how does awareness make everything mental? Can it make temperature, i.e heat or cold mental? Yes, I agree that awareness 'happens with the mind'. When have you seen anything of form without mind? Physicists also believed they could 'objectively' look at phenomena. Then Heisenberg found that the fact of looking caused the object to change. There is no separate 'form'. It always happens with awareness and so they are not-two. .... > >S: Is the continued experience of such sensations the path to jhana as you see it? > > Piti with a hindrance free awareness > accompanied with the other jhana factors > causes jhana to arise. Prior to that, a > whole bunch of other factors come into > play i.e. sila, etc. .... S: In other words, there is no use at all in being attached to or giving consequence to the various sensations in the body experienced? It is called a skill. Like everything conditioned, skill is relative. There is no need to attach to anything. But what folks dont see is that they are conditioned by positive and negative vedana. Your actions stem from this ignorance. To be able to see that piti and sukha are not all that great at this fundamental pre-action level allows a lot of chasing after objects to be put down. .... > > >S: Are Qigong, reiki and other healing practioners who have such > > experiences realizing jhanas as you understand the term? > > The point I was making to James in this regard > was that doing breath meditation coupled with > my previous experiences with feeling piti in > my hands ..... S: Mental states can cause or condition various sensations in the hands, but let's be clear that piti itself cannot arise in the hands. It's a mental factor. Sarah, why do you wish to split hairs? I have already said that everything happens with mind. But in the form jhanas, body or form is still within awareness. My experience of piti in the body is that it is associated with the nervous system. So if you like to link it to body consciousness and make it strictly mental, I dont have a qualm with that. What difference does it really make? The point is to develope the skill and not to get *lost* in the details. You know about the person that got shot with the poison arrow right? .... > allowed jhana to arise. > Most breath > meditators are not aware of this piti for a few > reasons. 1) their concentration is not strong > enough i.e. their mind is hindered 2) they are > not instructed to look for it. Because I can > muster up good enough concentration and I had > felt this piti before, off cushion, it was easy > and startling to see it once instructed. .... S: I think this is a special meaning of piti and jhana. As you've said, reiki or Qi gong practioners experience what you have described - but I question whether this has anything to do with jhana as taught by the Buddha. Yes piti by itself is not jhana. But like the simile above. It has to be stable in order to knead and soak into the body. If it is fleeting, you cannot work with it and develope this skill. If those practitioners had 'control' of the other factors, then they would experience jhana. The Buddha was taught jhana before he was a Buddha. It is not strictly a Buddhist skill. It happens naturally if the mind is unhindered. ... >Then > it was a matter of pervading this piti throughout > the body. If other practioners have a unhindered > awareness and can muster up the other jhana > factors then they too would be realizing jhana. > The Buddha experienced this 'spontaneoulsly' > as a child while watching a plowing festival > I believe. .... S: Are you sure he pervaded 'this piti throughout' his body? According to his simile above he would have had to or it happened of its own accord. This happened to me the first time I had experienced this. It was only after being instructed in jhana that I was able to do this at will with skill. The first time it happened, I thought I was on the Nibbana express. Since developing skill, I can see that the first and second jhanas are not all that great. Nothing to write home about. S:How do you know that the jhana factors you suggest are arising are even wholesome mental qualities - right as opposed to wrong jhana factors? Because the hindrances are gone. ... > >S: Is this how you understand jhana as used by the Buddha? What do you understand to be the meaning of jhana? E> Jhana is a unhindered awareness that > is concentrated to a degree where > absorption into an object of meditation > is made possible. Meaning depends on > context. So I dont know what you are > asking in the second question. .... S: Doesn't jhana mean 'burning up' of defilements, either temporarily through the suppression of the hindrances or completely through the eradication of defilements with lokuttara consciousness? Sure it means that too. .... > My pleasure. ... S: Thanks for being a good sport with my questions. Again it is my pleasure Sarah! S: Math too, you say that 'everything the mind focuses on will be tinged with piti...' As I said, you both speak the same language, but I'm trying to understand this spreading of piti.....Do you see piti as a mental factor or something like, dare I say it, peanut butter which can be spread around?. Yes it is like that but there is no jar. It just grows if "you" (your grasping) can get out of the way. It is like it is there always but obscurred by the defilements. Remove the hindrances and lo and behold, "where did that come from". It really is quite amazing. S:I'm trying to find some common ground here and apologise if I sound disrespectful at all of what you say or of your experiences - not my intention. I never feel you are disrespectful Sarah. You dont even have to say this. But it seems to me that if you dont have a bhavana practice then you will not quite grok what Math and I are talking about. Sarah, what is the most pleasant feeling you have had? A hot shower? Good food? Sun on a cold day? Jhana is the skill to cause this pleasantness throughout the body without dependence on an external object. If you could do this, then the desire for sensuality is severly diminished. metta 57792 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:42am Subject: Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thank you so much for your post. There is much in it that I appreciate. James: I'm very glad that you appreciated my post. That is nice to hear. > > > J: "Meditation or sati practice is kind of tricky because it can > become a sort of "spiritual materialism" where the desire is to > achieve great things or become a great person...This type of spiritual > materialism is what Jon is warning you about- and I agree that it can > be a problem." > > Exactly! Spiritual materialism - I didn't know what to call it. > Thanks for the great anecdote. James: Well, if you know that my example was an anecdote, you must be something of an English buff- we will get along just fine. ;-)) If you want to find out more about "Spiritual Materialism" you might want to do an Internet search. There is a lot more information. I've struggled with similar feelings > and was getting into other problems wondering what to do about kicking > myself for being so conceited. I figured that some inflation of the > personality was bound to accompany my entrance into Buddhism since I'd > been without a "spiritual path" having dropped the one forced on me in > my youth years ago. I'd start worrying, for example, that maybe I had > a "satipatthana-face" while walking around trying to be aware of > things and then I wondered if people could tell what a pious and deep > fellow I was. I'd almost want people to know what was happening to me > spiritually. I've tried to keep it to myself but I mean really, for > crying out loud . . . James: ;-)) I am really proud of you for speaking of this outloud. So many in these spiritual circles would rather die than admit to such things- that is even if they could see them in the first place. I think that it is very good you have observed this and decided to do something about it. It is no small matter, and should be confronted sooner than later. > > J: "I think this happens to everyone at some point in their Buddhist > practice, because ego is so insidious- but one just needs to be aware > of it when it happens." > > Its good to get a bit of perspective on this. I know better but its > nice to be reminded that if I'm struggling with it someone else must > have as well. It was actually bugging me quite a bit. James: That's good. I'm really glad that I could help you. This isn't really much of a "support group" but some people, like myself, tend to wear our hearts on our sleave. We are the oddballs in this group- but it is nice to have the opportunity to reach out to each other once in a while (BTW, if you know of a Buddhist group that is more of a non-judgemental support group, which keeps the Buddha's teachings in mind but doesn't shove them down your throat, I would be interested to know. I am starting to feel rather lonely and out of place here in DSG.) I'm really not > used to feeling so sure about something in the realm of "belief." > > J: "The safeguard is to always examine your motivations for your > practice. Are you meditating to impress others; to feel special in > some way; to escape from your life, etc.? Or, are you meditating to > be more "awake", to find the cure for suffering, to benefit all > sentient beings, etc.? If your motivation is pure, then the > practice will be pure; if your motivation is corrupt, then the > practice will be corrupt. The fault lies not with the practice, but > with the motivation." > > I want out of samsara. That's why I'm at it. I hope that I'm not > bragging. That's just my aim. James: That seems like a good aim to me- rather high and fearless, but good. Better than wanting to appear on the cover of "Buddhist Glamour" magazine. ;-)) By the way, although I edited out your > comments on the difference in opinion you have with others I did read > them. James: This is a very diplomatic way to state thing. Better than you cut that stuff out. I am not so good in the diplomacy department- maybe you can teach me some things? I don't mean any harm, but I invariably cause it anyway. Thanks again, James, for your really thoughtful comments. Its > difficult for me, at times, to try to get a perspective on all this. James: I am glad to have helped you some. I don't claim to know everything and I am still learning day by day. But if you want a better perspective, that can only come with increased awareness. Good luck to you with your practice. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James 57793 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) buddhatrue Hi Jon, Thanks for getting back to me on my post. It was very spontaneous and I didn't expect a reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > I think the context of the sutta is a monk who (a) as a follower of the > Buddha, is already developing insight, and (b) has already attained > jhana (see the passage preceding the words you quote above). I can see > why it would be said that the mind of such a bhikkhu inclines towards > Nibbana. James: It seems to me as if you have changed the emphasis of the quote. The quote was about jhana, not about any particular kind of monk. Yeah, maybe that monk did achieve those things (I don't feel like looking the quote back up again- so I will take your word for it) but the audience for this teaching by the Buddha may not have. This teaching by the Buddha is for a mixture of people of different abilities. > > However, I do not see that passage as suggesting that a 'mere mortal' > such as you or I who aspires to develop insight can better do so by > developing mundane jhana first. James: Jon, you may see the 'mere mortal' comment as humility, but I see it as conceit in disguise. There is no reason to put people on a pedestal. Sure, you can say "My background doesn't match his background" etc., but that isn't what you are doing here. You are putting that monk, dead some 2500 years, on a golden pedestal. There is no reason for that and I don't think it is effective. That strikes me as being the 'long way > round' ;-)) James: Now you believe that developing jhana is the long way around? Since when were you in a hurry? You have stated before that the Buddha's path is supposed to take aeons- now you want to rush it by skipping jhana? Jon, to be frank, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. > > Jon > Metta, James 57794 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: arahat and D.O., Larry buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > It is true that for the arahant akusala cittas no longer arise, so he is > spared the restlessness and unpleasant feeling that these 'mental > fermentations' involve. But the cittas that do arise for him still have > the characteristic of dukkha, just as they still have the > characteristics of anicca and anatta. James: Well, you do have something here. I guess I think of the quality of dukkha as different in nature than anicca and anatta. I think of anicca and anatta as objective- they aren't going to change. Impermanence and Non-self are facts. But I see the quality of dukkha as subjective- it depends on one's perspective. I see dukkha as a quality that isn't inherent but rather comes about through clinging. Interesting. Perhaps I am mistaken in my perspective. If you could provide me with a sutta quote of any kind (and of course you already know I won't accept anyting from the Abhidhamma or Vism.) then I would appreciate it. If my prespective is in error, I would like to be corrected as soon as possible. Metta, James > > Jon > 57795 From: "ericlonline" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 0:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The place of "meditation" ... Viharati (corrected) ericlonline Hi Jon, > >... > > > > > >>[J:] Jhana consciousness can form the basis for enlightenment, in > >>certain very exceptional circumstances. We find some description of > >>this in the suttas (e.g., the anapanasati section of the > >>kayanupassana division of the Satipatthana Sutta). > >> > > > >Surely it is in many many suttas, yes? > >Besides, Right Concentration is jhana. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- > >samadhi/index.html > > > > > > Yes, samma samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is described in terms of > the 4 jhanas. But this needs to be understood in the context of the Noble Eightfold Path as a whole. Yes of course. And the 4NT's even more broadly considered. > > As I see it, the Noble Eightfold Path describes the 8 factors that arise > together at a moment of supramundane path consciousness. These factors > are momentary mental factors (in Abhidhamma terms, 'cetasikas'). Everything is momentary. So, what?! Many moments give the appearance of continuation in which we find ourselves. It is only a highly developed meditative mind that can sense this momentariness. > They > do not arise as path factors singly, but only in combination. As > explained in the texts, they arise in a combination of 5 or 6 factors at > moments of mundane path consciousness (i.e., vipassana) or all 8 factors > at moments of supramundane path consciousness (any of the 4 stages of > enlightenment). OK > > There are 2 important implications of this: > > a/. The first is that the the individual factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not qualities to be developed in isolation. yes of course, you can look at them individualy for study and clarification. To learn about the dynamic. But while in jhana you have Right View as you are practicing in accordance with the 4 NT's. Right thought, speech, action and livlihood by abstenation. And of course the 3 samadhi factors are firing away. So you are firing away on all 8 cylinders. >If that were the > case, then people who had never heard the teachings, but who believe in kamma, lead a life of good sila, make an effort to avid aksuala, and develop jhaana, would be developing the path (even though they might also believe in a soul ;-)). They would probably be farther along the path then many who think they are! For the conceit 'I am' is not let go of until arahantship, so who cares about a silly little belief in soul? ;-) > > b/. The second is that the descriptions of the individual factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are descriptions of the mental states of an attainer to the path, not of one aspiring to attain the supramundane path. And? > As regards the path factor of samma samadhi in particluar, I believe that the description of this factor in terms of the 4 jhanas means that, at the moment of actual path consciousness, the concentration factor accompanying the path consciousness is equivalent to the concentration factor that accompanies a moment of jhana consciousness. Here is how it > is explained in CMA (Ch I, Guide to #30, 31): > > "[F]or bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas." > > Thus, they are *like* the mundane jhanas, although they are not actually so. What is the sutta reference for this above? 57796 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:04pm Subject: Thanissaro Bhikkhu Is Incorrect - Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy onco111 Hi Tep, Just one more addendum... > > helping a suffering person may or may not be accompanied/motivated by metta. It may also be motivated by greed (in anticipation of some sort of reward), ignorance (or the conceit of polishing the big "I" statue, a la: "Look what I'm doing for this suffering person. Aren't I great?"), or dosa ("If I don't help out here, people will think I'm bad", or "I better help or I'll feel guilty"). The metta (or karuna) is a kusala state of mind at a moment and may not have anything to do with the perceived "good work". Metta, Dan 57797 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:26pm Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? onco111 Hi Tep, Thanks for the pleasant comments. It's nice to hear from you again. > Tep: Do you remember the famous Maha-cattarisaka Sutta? Certainly! Perhaps in my "top 10" list of greatest suttas. > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: > This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & > to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. > Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right > mindfulness — run & circle around right resolve. [MN 117] > > I am sure that right resolve(samma-sankappo)is a kusala dhamma. And I'm sure you are right. > Is it possible for you to develop right resolve by "putting aside" intention and effort to abandon wrong resolve? No. To develop right resolve, there must be right intention and right effort. These only arise and are only developed when the wrong intention and wrong effort (including the I-filled conventional notion of intention and effort) are put aside. The "I" is powerless to develop wisdom or perform kusala of any kind. This is not at all to say "don't try to do good works." There can be many (conventional) benefits of (conventional) good intention, resolve, and effort, but there is a stark distinction between kusala and "good". Can I tell if a person's "good works" are kusala or simply "good"? Not at all! And it is none of my business to try to judge as kusala/akusala. > Can you enter into right resolve without the help from right view, right mindfulness and right effort? No. They all arise together. Metta, Dan 57798 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? onco111 Hi Howard, Very quickly... H: What is studying the Dhamma if not a "conventional activity"? That seems to be the only conventional activity that soe of the DSG folks consider "practice". D: Yes. Reading books and discussing Dhamma are "conventional activities".---...well..., at least they are "conventional activities" when you say, "the way to develop understanding is to read books." But in moments of in the activity-wrapper we call "reading", there are bound to arise moments of sati, panya, and what-have-you. Mostly, though, it is the hum-drum of normal akusala of craving understanding, of craving for proper material conditions for studying, etc., etc. that marches on. Same thing for the activity- wrapper of meditation. H: Should it not be engaged in, Dan, or, if it should, is that so merely because it is a "useful and (conventionally) wholesome action that is to be encouraged because it makes for a more civil and pleasant culture," or because engaging in that "intensive conventional effort can illuminate the futility of conventional effort"? D: What should be engaged in is the sammas. That is the path to wisdom. If the sammas arise in the course of your reading, wonderful! If they arise in your sitting, wonderful! But suppose an upasaka (or bhikkhu for that matter) resolves to do one hour of reading, one hour of discussing, and two hours of sitting per day in order to bring about sammas (or, even worse, suppose the upasaka does these things because he thinks that doing these things really IS samma). That upasaka is mired in a swamp because he is working from a deeply- rooted assumption that the big "I" has the power to liberate through ritual. Don't you think? Metta, Dan 57799 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:02pm Subject: Re: Is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's not-self strategy bad? indriyabala Dear Dan D. (and other Friends)- Thank you for the agreeable reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Thanks for the pleasant comments. It's nice to hear from you again. > Tep: You're welcome! The nice feeling is mine too; thank you for giving me the opportunity. ......... > > Tep: Do you remember the famous Maha-cattarisaka Sutta? > >Dan: Certainly! Perhaps in my "top 10" list of greatest suttas. > > > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: > > This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong > > resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: > > This is one's right mindfulness. > > Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right > > mindfulness — run & circle around right resolve. [MN 117] > > > > Tep: I am sure that right resolve(samma-sankappo)is a kusala dhamma. > > Dan: And I'm sure you are right. > Tep: So far so good! {:-)) ........... > > Tep: Is it possible for you to develop right resolve by "putting aside" intention and effort to abandon wrong resolve? > > Dan: No. To develop right resolve, there must be right intention and right effort. These only arise and are only developed when the wrong > intention and wrong effort (including the I-filled conventional > notion of intention and effort) are put aside. The "I" is powerless > to develop wisdom or perform kusala of any kind. This is not at all > to say "don't try to do good works." There can be many (conventional)benefits of (conventional) good intention, resolve, and effort, but there is a stark distinction between kusala and "good". > > Can I tell if a person's "good works" are kusala or simply "good"? > Not at all! And it is none of my business to try to judge as > kusala/akusala. Tep: You sure know the noble eightfold path as well as ethics. > ................ > > Tep: Can you enter into right resolve without the help from right > >view, right mindfulness and right effort? > > No. They all arise together. > Tep : Great, you have passed this dhamma quiz with a flying test score. Best wishes, Tep ========