59600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination nilovg Dear Han, Yes, the groups are intertwined. There are many ways of presenting, and when Larry and I come to it, it will be clearer, I have the Tiika also, but now I am not so far yet. In 298, the Vis. states that with triple round it spins forever. Thus also now. All the time there are the round of result, vipaakacittas arise. On account of these, there is the round of defilements and then these motivate kamma, the round of kamma. Kamma produces result, etc. and so it goes on. I have a quote from Ven. Bodhi's article: *** Nina. op 21-05-2006 17:09 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > In Vism XVII, 291-297, the Dependent Origination has > four groups: ... Now, my contention is that it is not that simple > one-way traffic. > (1) Group (c) in present life will produce results not > only of group (d) in next life, but also of group (b) > in present life. > So, diagrammatically, there will be two arrows > starting from group (c) and going towards group (b) > and group (d). > ------------------------------ 59601 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:41am Subject: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? indriyabala Dear DSG Friends (both friendly & unfriendly ones), I think we have to constantly listen to the Teachings (through reading/discussing the suttas and, of course, the Abhidhamma). As you know, there are five benefits of good listening: "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene." [AN V.202] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% MN 112 Chabbisodana Sutta : The Sixfold Examination is the only one sutta I have seen that is about how to test whether someone is an Arahant or not! Why should you care? Well, by studying this sutta we will gain two great benefits: 1) We learn what dhamma knowledges must be possesed by the Arahant. [We can try to shoot for a few of these!] 2) We learn how to test whether a person actually has "mastered" these dhamma knowledges. In a way, it is similar to giving an oral examination to test a student's knowledge after he/she has taken all courses to meet the requirements of a university's degree program. Here is the Web address for this unique sutta : http://www.vipassana.info/112-chabbisodhana-e.htm What do you think about it? Warm regards, Tep ===== 59602 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 2:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas, .. Systems Theory kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, I didn't know since I'm not a control-systems person. I based my thinking on the mind processes based on Abhidhamma so I thought I was using terms from there. Go figure :/ - Kel ps. I meant to use superposition though > Do you realize that your explanation below contains quite a few terms > from the systems identification theory? > > Kel: I don't think they have to be heard at the same time to > produce a 3rd one. As the identification happens over several > processes and > > the source is duplicated. No reason two sources can't be > superimposed before it is recognized. 59603 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 2:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi RobM, On 21/05/06, robmoult wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > Wow!!! A new source of on-line Suttas! I have bookmarked it as one of > my favourites. Thank you, thank you, thank you! My pleasure :-) ===== > > > > DN33 contains the Buddha's appraisal of Sariputta's dalogue > thus: "Good, > > Good, Shariputra, well indeed have you proclaimed the way of > chanting > > together for the monks." > > > > I do not think this is the point you want to make? > > > ===== > > Yup, this Sutta shows that Sariputta's approach to teaching the > Dhamma involved a degree of theory (memorizing lists). There's lots of stuff on the Net. This is from the Intro to the MN at ATO (accesstoinsight). "Recent scholarship suggests that a distinguishing trait of the Digha Nikaya may be that it was "intended for the purpose of propaganda, to attract converts to the new religion." Yes, I guess anyone who has been to school knows what rote learning is all about. The problem arises when there is noone left who understands or can explain what the meaning of what has been learnt is. Then, all that is left to do is just to keep on rote learning. An example of this happening is when there was talk of removing some of the lesser training rules. No agreement could be reached on what the lesser rules were. There was heaps of learning, but no understanding. It is this way with any "movement". There are always going to be conservatives, moderates, progressives. The conservatives will always seek to preserve and keep intact what has been handed down, not understanding that the meanings of the words change over time, and that access to the original words does not amount to much. Anyway, I realise, too late, that I have digressed into an academic discussion, which is neither for your or my benefit. May we both find what we are looking for Herman 59604 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 2:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce it... egberdina Hi Ken, On 21/05/06, ken_aitch wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > This was a very strange message: To you , perhaps :-) ------------- > H: > I could find no greater testimony to a realistion of anatta, > then an easy entrance into jhana. > Is there a greater impediment to jhana than the "controlling I", > unwilling to renounce its grip on the sensual world? > > Perhaps a book about anatta can be judged by its jhana, or lack of it? > ------------- > > All I can think is that you are saying Matheesha is a jhana > meditator – and one who finds jhana easy. Am I correct? No. I am saying that an ego-bound individual will find jhana impossible, because they will find it impossible to relinquish all control. The question was an opportunity for you to ask yourself how you fared in this respect. Without fail, I always find your statements re anatta riddled with contradictions. You may well have a profound realisation of the matter, but I cannot see that from what you are saying. The fauilt may well lie with me. Let's not beat about the bush. Do you have a profound realisation of the matter, or do you write what you write for other reasons? In any case, it would be extraordinary of you to say we must blindly > follow the opinions of whoever makes the greatest claims of > attainment. That sort of thinking would get us into no end of trouble. Your faith in the Buddha is based on what? Kind Regards Herman 59605 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dinner with Rob egberdina Hi Steve and all, You have to promise me upfront that in reading the following you accept that I am not writing about you - full stop. Failing that, please don't read it :-) On 21/05/06, seisen_au wrote: > > Hi Phil, Rob and all, > > Phil wrote: > > - The big one was the visible object question - in all those > > suttas in which it is said form, sound, taste, smell, touch and > > mental object lead to unwholesome states and what not, how could a > > blob of colour as visible object in itself be the thing that > > triggers the unwholesome proliferation. Rob told me that the "form" > > of these suttas can indeed be taken to be "flash of thigh" for > > example. He said that the notion of blobs of colour, for example, > > being assembled by many mind door processes into "thigh" or > whatever > > is a recent notion, and showed me a passage from the Comprehensive > > Manual of Abhidhamma in which Bhikkhu Bodhi attributes it to Ledi > > Sayadaw from only 100 years go. > > I'm not aware of Ledi Sayadaw's understanding of visible object, so I > cant really comment on that. My understanding is that the rupa that > is visible object is one of the 8 inseparable rupas; the four Great > Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and rupa > (visible object), odour, flavour and nutrition. While sometimes > visible object is referred to as different shapes, as in the > Dhammasangani, the commentaries explain that in reality such shapes > are not directly a visible object, which I interpret to mean they are > conceptual/pannatti. The commentaries seem to gloss the rupa that is > visible object as vanna or colour. I would agree with Rob, that in > some suttas visible object may sometimes be referring to a concept, > but in terms of differentiating between pannatti and paramattha these > couple of quotes from Khun Sujin seem relevant. > > "When we see what is only a painting of fruits and real fruits, both > the painting and the real fruits are pannattis. A pannatti (concept) > is not a paramattha dhamma (reality). As we have seen there are many > aspects with regard to pannatti. It can be an idea of a whole or a > mass or it can be a name or term that refers to something, be it real > or not real. What is the difference between real fruits and a > painting of fruits? What appears through the eyes while one sees are > not beings, people, or different things. No matter whether one sees a > painting of grapes or the real grapes, through eyes only colour > appears. We may believe that only the picture is a pannatti and that > the real grapes are not a pannatti (concept). However, in reality the > picture as well as the real grapes that appear are objects which are > pannatti experienced by mind-door process cittas. The cittas of the > eye-door process experience only colour which appears."(Khun Sujin, > Realities and Concepts). > > "When we know that we see people or different things, the citta > experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rupa. The > object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are > only different colours." (Khun Sujin, Realities and Concepts). It seems to me that the intention behind understanding sense objects is either cessation or becoming. Compare the above to the below: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Kind Regards Herman 59606 From: han tun Date: Sun May 21, 2006 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comprehensive answer. May I ask you one more question? In Dependent Origination, we have the following links: (1) avijjaa paccayaa sankhaara (2) sankhaara paccayaa vinnaanam (3) vinnaana paccayaa naama-ruupam (4) naama-ruupa paccayaa salaayatanam (5) salaayatana paccayaa phasso (6) phassa paccayaa vedanaa (7) vedanaa paccayaa tanhaa (8) tanhaa paccayaa upaadaanam (9) upaadaana paccayaa bhavo (10) bhava paccayaa jaati (11) jaati paccayaa jaraa-maranam Now, my question is: Is there “jaraa-marana paccayaa avijjaa”? [Not going backwards from jaraa-marana to jaati to bhava to upaadaana, etc., but directly from jaraa-marana to avijjaa.] If so, how that link can come about? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Yes, the groups are intertwined. There are many ways > of presenting, and when > Larry and I come to it, it will be clearer, I have > the Tiika also, but now I > am not so far yet. 59607 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Tep, On 22/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > > T: I hope you don't mind elaborate a little more in what way MN 143 is > about the "higher teaching". > .......... If I remember correctly the word abhidhamma is used in the sutta. Anathapindika expresses his delight at a few sentences that are normally only reserved for monks. This has blown out in the scholastic period to a bookshelf full of books, the weight of which could kill a whale :-). >Herman: > >If people say that the study of the Abhidhamma and/or its > commentaries supports their practice, then I am certainly not in a > position to deny or validate that. > > T: What is the reason? What advantages, if any, do you think "the > study of the Abhidhamma and/or its commentaries" offer? > ............. None that I know of. But I am not a final authority on much :-) But I do know the difference betwen Pure Land Buddhism and what the Buddha teaches in the Suttas. I know the difference between actions that are intended (whether acknowledged or not) to create happy, everlasting existences, and those actions that stem from an understanding of the 1st Noble Truth. >Herman: > >I'm sorry, Rob, but I see no support for an academic approach as a > springboard to enlightenment in the suttas. Is DO theory? Isn't it > happening right here, right now? > > T: DO principles have been test proven beyond doubt. For those who > have treated DO as a subject for reading, pondering and considering > (and have not yet applied it to get rid of the sixteen questions about > past, future and present), DO remains forever as "theory" to them, I > think. That's how I see it, too. Thank you for discussing. Kind Regards Herman 59608 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 4:03pm Subject: Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala Hi Nina (and James) , The article also declares the discovery of "common mechanisms" of cravings (without using the Abhidhamma understanding). "When people crave food, the study found, the same portions of the brain are active as during other strong longings. "This is consistent with the idea that cravings of all kinds, whether for food, drugs, or designer shoes, have common mechanisms," Marcia Levin Pelchat, a sensory psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine said yesterday. [ Health Sci Tech Newsletter. Nov 5, 04] > > 1. Why do longings affect the brain if tanha is associated with citta? -------- >N: There is mind-produced ruupa. The citta with tanhaa can produce ruupas, not only ruupas we call brain but also others. ------- Tep: A drug that suppresses tanha-induced brain activities also stops the longings. Does that mean the drug can control the citta and cetasikas through the citta's produced ruupa? [Should the research team hire an expert in the Abhidhamma as an adviser?] > >T: 2. Billion of dollars have been spent for "better > >pharmacological treatments for obesity and drug addiction". > >Isn't that a wasteful > >spending of money? Shouldn't these patients be educated in the > >Abhidhamma so they gain "understanding" that will solve their >>problems with obesity and drug addiction? --------- >N: The listeners have to be openminded to the Abhidhamma to begin with. One cannot just educate people in the Abhidhamma ;--)) Tep: Then can you educate people to be open-minded first? Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep and James, (snipped) > N: The listeners have to be openminded to the Abhidhamma to begin with. One > cannot just educate people in the Abhidhamma ;--)) > Nina. > 59609 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 4:26pm Subject: Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... indriyabala Hi Herman, I'm getting to understand your understanding much better these days. >Herman: >None that I know of. But I am not a final authority on much :-) Tep: No, clearly you are not a "final authority" on the Abhidhamma (but who is, anyway?). However, for sure, you are an expert in coining up new terms as fast as your hands can move ... "the scholastic period", "Pure Land Buddhism" etc. {:->)) >Herman: >I know the difference between actions that are intended (whether acknowledged or not) to create happy, everlasting existences, and those actions that stem from an understanding of the 1st Noble Truth. Tep: That sound pretty interesting. But I am not sure I understand "everlasting existence" (it sounds like a heaven of Hinduism or Christianity). Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > ... > > T: I hope you don't mind elaborate a little more in what way MN > 143 is about the "higher teaching". > > .......... > > > If I remember correctly the word abhidhamma is used in the sutta. > Anathapindika expresses his delight at a few sentences that are normally only reserved for monks. This has blown out in the scholastic period to a bookshelf full of books, the weight of which could kill a whale :-). > > (snipped) 59610 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Tep, > > >Herman: > >I know the difference between actions that are intended (whether > acknowledged or not) to create happy, everlasting existences, and > those actions that stem from an understanding of the 1st Noble Truth. > > Tep: That sound pretty interesting. But I am not sure I understand > "everlasting existence" (it sounds like a heaven of Hinduism or > Christianity). You would understand this better than me: why do people pursue the making of merit? Is their motivation different to Hindus or Christians? Kind Regards Herman 59611 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 5:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... indriyabala Hi again, Herman- You used a question to answer a question. >H: > You would understand this better than me: > why do people pursue the making of merit? > Is their motivation different to Hindus or Christians? > True Buddhists' motivation in making a merit(pu~n~na) is not for forever-lasting happiness with a supreme God in a speculated heaven (with a blind faith). It is for rejoicing in this life and the next (like a good investment for near future). Dhp 18 : Here he delights he delights hereafter. In both worlds the merit-maker delights. He delights at the thought, 'I've made merit.' Having gone to a good destination, he delights all the more. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, 59612 From: "seisen_au" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dinner with Rob seisen_au Heya Herman, all, > > I'm not aware of Ledi Sayadaw's understanding of visible object, so I cant really comment on that. My understanding is that the rupa that is visible object is one of the 8 inseparable rupas; the four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and rupa > > (visible object), odour, flavour and nutrition. While sometimes > > visible object is referred to as different shapes, as in the > > Dhammasangani, the commentaries explain that in reality such shapes are not directly a visible object, which I interpret to mean they are conceptual/pannatti. The commentaries seem to gloss the rupa that is visible object as vanna or colour. I would agree with Rob, that in some suttas visible object may sometimes be referring to a concept, but in terms of differentiating between pannatti and paramattha these couple of quotes from Khun Sujin seem relevant. > > > > "When we see what is only a painting of fruits and real fruits, > >both the painting and the real fruits are pannattis. A pannatti > >(concept) is not a paramattha dhamma (reality). As we have seen > > there are many aspects with regard to pannatti. It can be an idea > >of a whole or a mass or it can be a name or term that refers to > >something, be it real or not real. What is the difference between > >real fruits and a painting of fruits? What appears through the > >eyes while one sees are not beings, people, or different things. No matter whether one sees a painting of grapes or the real grapes, > >through eyes only colour appears. We may believe that only the > >picture is a pannatti and that the real grapes are not a pannatti > >(concept). However, in reality the picture as well as the real grapes that appear are objects which are pannatti experienced by mind- > >door process cittas. The cittas of the eye-door process experience > >only colour which appears."(Khun Sujin, Realities and Concepts). > > > > "When we know that we see people or different things, the citta > > experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rupa. The > > object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are > > only different colours." (Khun Sujin, Realities and Concepts). Herman wrote > Compare the above to the below: > > "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, > there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In > reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only > the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will > be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to > the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in > reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. > When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is > no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, > just this, is the end of stress." Thanks for the Sutta. "In reference to the seen there will be only the seen" The commentary to this passage recons that "with respect to the sight- base, (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye- consciousness." I don't see any issues comparing the sutta with the previous material. Perhaps I'm missing something? Rgrds Steve 59613 From: "indriyabala" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 7:18pm Subject: Re: Is there a hierarchy in (radiating) metta? Wrapping Up !! indriyabala Hi Joop (& all) - In order to wrap up our discussion on metta and radiating metta, let me backtrack to the question you asked earlier. >Joop (#59501): >One other questions came to my mind reading this Sutta (MN 127) Is having "thoughts of loving kindness" the same as "radiating metta", that is radiating metta to other beings? I think it is not. Tep: Let me re-phase your question as follows: Is developing thoughts of loving kindness with regard to all beings the same as radiating (or pervading) the thought of loving kindness to all beings? The Karaniya Metta Sutta [Sn I.8] is very good at describing the thought of loving kindness with regard to all beings. "As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings. With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this mindfulness. This is called a sublime abiding here & now. [endquote] Tep: The good will for the entire cosmos is indeed limitless as I discussed in an earlier post. Here the word "radiating" or "pervading" is not used, but the result is the same -- to cultivate a limitless "heart" (or citta) -- it is a purification of consciousness. Concerning the way to pervade metta to all beings, SN XLII.8 (Sankha Sutta) describe the "broadcating" of the metta citta all over the cosmos as follows: "That disciple of the noble ones, headman — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there." Tep: Here there is a new word that does not appear in the above sutta, "awareness imbued with good will". To me that means the same as consciousness associated with metta. Again, it is a purification of consciousness. My conclusion? They are the same! I think MN 127 very nicely concludes everything I have presented: ======== MN 127: "Householder, what is the limitless release of mind? Here, the bhikkhu pervades one direction with thoughts of loving kindness. Also the second, the third, the fourth, above, below and across, in all circumstances, for all purposes, pervades the whole world with thoughts of loving kindness, extensive, grown great and measureless without ill will and anger." ============ Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Tep, Herman, and dearest Connie > > Tep, I will not do - at this moment - the homework you proposed me to > do. > First you asked my attention for MN 127 in which there was described > a highest level of metta. > I started to study that Sutta and didn't find anything you found (as > far as I understood you) in it and asked questions about that Sutta. > Now you will give me a next Sutta without reaction to my questions. > > Don't forget I'm primarely interested in radiating metta to other > beings. And your quotes are not about that topic, they are about how > a "monk" can get a arahant. (snipped) 59614 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 21, 2006 9:14pm Subject: The 5 Higher Chains ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: There are these five Higher Mental Chains (Samyojana): The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five Higher Mental Chains. What five? 1: The Mental Chain of Craving for Fine-material Existence (rupa-raga)… 2: The Mental Chain of Craving for Formless immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)… 3: The Mental Chain of the Conceit: “I AM” (mana)… 4: The Mental Chain of Restlessness (uddhacca)… 5: The Mental Chain of Ignorance (avijja)… These are the 5 Higher Mental Chains! The Noble 8-fold Way should be developed for the direct experience of these five Higher Mental Chains, for the full understanding and elimination of them, and for their final overcoming, abandoning and leaving all behind…This Noble 8-fold Way is developed for the breaking asunder these five Higher Mental Chains!!! Explanation: The Mental Chain of Craving for Fine-material Existence is attraction to the bliss of first 4 mental absorptions… The Mental Chain of Craving for Formless Existence is attraction to the equanimity of 4 formless absorptions… The Mental Chain of the Conceit: “I AM” is the narcissism, that there IS an ‘Ego’, that remains being the same… The Mental Chain of Restlessness is the obsessed addiction to all making, intending, planning, doing, constructing… The Mental Chain of Ignorance is the not seeing, not understanding and not knowing directly the 4 Noble Truths… These Higher Mental Chains bind beings to existence in the worlds of fine subtle matter & in the formless worlds... For some details on the 31 levels of existence see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:61] section 45: The Way. 180: The 5 Higher Mental Chains... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 59615 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 21, 2006 10:51pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 27, Moral Shame & Fear of Blame (hiri & ottappa) contd ***** Questions i Why will moral shame and fear of blame develop to the extent that wisdom develops? ii Why can moral shame and fear of blame be classified as powers? iii What is the difference between moral shame and fear of blame of the sotåpanna and those of the non-ariyan? ***** Ch28 - Moral Shame & Fear of Blame(hiri & ottappa)finished! Metta, Sarah ====== 59616 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's points, and funeral. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Lodewijk, Matt(Ivan), Ell & all, Welcome back! I hope you had a good trip. I was glad to see you managed to have some internet access at your brother's house too. ... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > You sent us many excellent reactions on Lodewijk's points and later on > I > want to discuss them with Lodewijk. He especially liked your remark on > not > being the world's manager, since he thinks that he is and understand now > that it is not possible. .... S: I think this point is very helpful too. I remember years and years ago a small incident in Bangkok which left an impression on me. Ivan was giving his ideas at a lunch at his house about how a chain of new department stores would be much better having fresh flowers than artificial flowers for decoration and a few other comments along those lines. I thought all his ideas were good ones - he and his wife, Ell, always have good ideas on design. But, I noticed Khun Sujin shaking her head when I agreed with him. Afterwards, I asked her why she'd shaken her head and she said 'maana'(conceit). It's mana when we think we could arrange things better (even if we really could). At the back of our mind there's the idea that if we were running the stores, in charge of the design, running the show instead of the others, organising discussions or the travel itinerary, that somehow we'd do better. Our sense of self-importance is there. There's no understanding at such times of conditioned dhammas, but we have an idea of being 'the world's manager'. Since that time, I've found it's very common to have such ideas and to not see the mana and other akusala dhammas, being lost in the dream about the big improvement we could make instead. .... >It has to be the right time to take in Dhamma > reminders which may at first sound unpleasant or irritating. Our > dispositions change. .... S: So true. Again, sometimes it's just our maana which has a hard time at first - appreciating how little we know or perhaps feeling misunderstood. But as you suggest, we can gradually become more and more receptive to hearing home-truths. .... > I like to react to them point by point, they are very important. .... S: Of course, I'll look forward to any further comments you and Lodewijk have and hearing more about your recent discussions. Metta, Sarah p.s Matt, do add any further comments or reflections too! ======== 59617 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 21, 2006 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's points, and funeral. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Matt, Jon & all), Nina wrote: > At my brother's I read your message about Alan Driver's funeral and how > you > were at first very depressed and then happy after Jon's eulogy and after > you > touched his bones. Please, would you elaborate more on this. What did Kh > Sujin say? What do you remember of Jon's eulogy? In what way did you > find > the touching of the bones helpful? .... S: It's all a long time ago now - nearly 20 years, I think. My recollections are probably mixed up, but I'll make a few comments with a little bit of explanation for those who don't know the background at all. (I think I may have said some of this before). As you know, Alan (previously Phra Dhammadharo) and his mother had both been killed outright in a horrific car accident in Thailand and his step-father was in hospital, unable to attend the funeral, but in reasonable shape. Jon had left for Bangkok a few days earlier to attend the daily funeral ceremonies with friends at the temple where the coffins lay. (The bodies were in such bad shape, the coffins were closed). I had meetings and classes I couldn't cancel, so I just arrived on the Saturday morning of the cremation service, joining everyone in the temple grounds. I was in tears on the flight and when I arrived, I recall. I was completely lost in my own stories and world of feeling sad. But within seconds of arriving at the temple and being greeted by all the smiling friends, including K.Sujin, Jonothan, Ivan and Elle in particular, it seemed that all my grief just disappeared. It struck me how kind and considerate everyone was being, while my sadness was entirely self-centred. I don't remember K.Sujin's words, but she smiled and almost laughed at my tears and gently made me appreciate that they were just tears for myself, for my own feelings, for my own loss - in other words, my own self-indulgence! The person we'd known as Alan had already gone, the cittas had already moved on according to kamma and it would be the same for all of us. Nothing to grieve about and the tears would not be of any assistance to him at all. At the same time, she and our other friends arranged beautiful services and showed the greatest respect to his memory (and that of his mother too). They were plucking buckets of flower petals, arranging lotus flowers (his favourite flowers)and preparing for the cremation. At the last moment before the service, Jon was asked on the spot to give a eulogy without any time for any preparation or any warning. I don't really recall his words except he talked about Alan's life in some detail and about his friendship and confidence in the dhamma. What I was moved by was how Jon rose to this difficult occasion so selflessly and spoke in a very moving way about his dear friend. After the cremation, the ashes were taken out and some small bones were laid out on trays. I was looking at them and K.Sujin could sense I was still clinging to the idea of 'Alan'. 'Touch them, Khun Sarah!' she told me. As I did so, she said something like 'see, just hardness'. It helped me a lot at the time. The next day we went out in a boat and before we set off, I think it was Ivan and Ell who kindly instructed me to carry the urn of Alan's ashes for the trip. I had to concentrate to hold on, petrified I'd drop them. Out of town on the river, the buckets of flower petals we'd plucked the day before were thrown into the water like a trail of confetti. K.Sujin and others had to tell me more than once to throw the urn of Alan's ashes into the water. I couldn't let go at first. My fingers were digging into the urn. And then I did and we saw it bobbling along amongst the flowers. For me, it was a very happy and memorable funeral. I've felt no grief at all on Alan's account since that time and a little later when we visited Alan's grandmother (and sister, if I recall) in Adelaide, we were able to show them pictures and assure them it had been a memorable funeral. I think the real lesson was in 'letting go'. 'Like a gentle wind passing through' is how we can slowly consider all our dear friends who pass by in this life. I don't know if this helps. Please share any of your own reminders as you go to many funerals too, Nina. Again Matt (Ivan) or Jon may also have their own comments to add. Metta, Sarah ====== 59618 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(n) hantun1 Dear Sarah and Nina, I will try to answer these three questions. This is my continuing learning process. I want to understand the subject more. One way to learn more is to answer such questions. Just being a learning process, my answers may be incorrect or inadequate. Please feel free to correct me. (i) Why will moral shame and fear of blame develop to the extent that wisdom develops? I found the answer to the above question in SN 45.1 Avijjaa sutta, where the Buddha said: “Bhikkhus, true knowledge (vijjaa) is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame (hiri) and fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) following along.” Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi explained on the above statement that “True knowledge (vijjaa) is knowledge of one’s responsibility for one’s own action (kammassakataanaana). It is a forerunner for hiri and ottappa in two modes, as a conascent condition (sahajaatavasena, a condition for simultaneously arisen states) and as a decisive-support condition (upanissayavasena, a strong causal condition for subsequently arisen states).” Therefore, the true knowledge or wisdom and moral shame and fear of blame can arise simultaneously, or wisdom can support the arising of moral shame and fear of blame. Hiri and ottappa in turn can assist the kusala cittas together with many other sobhana cetasikas. With wisdom we will have more confidence in kusala and we will see the dangers and disadvantages of akusala, and hiri and ottappa will develop accordingly. By this way of conascent condition and decisive-support condition, it can be said that moral shame and fear of blame develop to the extent that wisdom develops. ----------------------------- (ii) Why can moral shame and fear if blame be classified as powers? In Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma there are five powers, namely, confidence (saddha), energy (viriya), mindfulness (sati), concentration (samaadhi) and wisdom (pannaa). In addition to these five powers, two more factors, namely, moral shame (hiri) and fear of blame (ottappa) can be added as powers, because these two factors also support moral or wholesome actions like the first five powers, and prevent unwholesome actions: hiri by way of conscientious scruple, and ottappa by way of a sense of guilt towards bad and evil states. The second reason is that hiri and ottappa (like the other five powers) are, when fully developed, unshakeable by their opposites. (1) the power of confidence (saddha) is unshakeable by faithlessness (tanhaa)*, (2) the power of energy (viriya) by laziness (kosajja), (3) the power of mindfulness (sati) by forgetfulmness (mutthasacca), (4) the power of concentration (samaadhi) by distractedness (vikkhepa), (5) the power of wisdom (pannaa) by ignorance (sammoha), (6) the power of moral shame (hiri) by shamelessness (ahirika), (7) the power of fear of blame (ottappa) by recklessness (anottappa). * The tanhaa is named as the opposite of saddha in Bodhipakkhiya Dipani by Ledi Sayadaw. ----------------------------- (iii) What is the difference between moral shame and fear of blame of the sotapanna and those of the non-ariyan? The main difference between the moral shame and fear of blame of the sotaapanna and those of the non-ariyan is the level of their development, which in turn depends on the fact that sotaapanna has already eradicated the wrong view. Because sotaapanna has eradicated the wrong view, the moral shame and fear of blame are more fully developed and more firmly established, and sotaapanna no more commits gross akusala kamma which can produce an unhappy rebirth. Whereas, the moral shame and fear of blame in non-ariyan are not yet fully developed because of the presence, to a varying degree in different individuals, of wrong view and clinging to “self”. Therefore, non-ariyan can still have conditions for the committing of gross akusala kamma. This difference is also manifested in observing the five precepts. The non-ariyan can easily break the five precepts, but a sotaapanna will never break the five precepts. One reason for this difference is the firm establishment of the moral shame and fear of blame in sotaapanna. After all, the moral shame and fear of blame are the proximate cause of siila, morality. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Ch 27, Moral Shame & Fear of Blame (hiri & ottappa) > contd > ***** > Questions > > i Why will moral shame and fear of blame develop to > the > extent that wisdom develops? > > ii Why can moral shame and fear of blame be > classified as > powers? > > iii What is the difference between moral shame and > fear of > blame of the sotåpanna and those of the non-ariyan? > ***** > Ch28 - Moral Shame & Fear of Blame(hiri & > ottappa)finished! > 59619 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination nilovg Dear Han, op 22-05-2006 00:29 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > In Dependent Origination, we have the following links: > > (1) avijjaa paccayaa sankhaara.... ..... > (10) bhava paccayaa jaati > (11) jaati paccayaa jaraa-maranam > > Now, my question is: > Is there “jaraa-marana paccayaa avijjaa”? > [Not going backwards from jaraa-marana to jaati to > bhava to upaadaana, etc., but directly from > jaraa-marana to avijjaa.] > If so, how that link can come about? -------- N: Such link has not been given. The whole texct states: 'Through rebirth are conditioned old age and death (sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair). Thus arises this whole mass of dukkha again in the future.' The purpose of the D.O. is to show us that we are in sa.msaara and how to be liberated from it. It is said that the D.O. has been treated in different ways, starting from the beginning to the end, starting from the middle to the end, starting from the end to the beginning (with birth as condition, ageing and death), from the middle to the beginning. Starting from the end, we read in the Sammoha vinodanii (p. 163, Dispeller of Delusion): as to starting from the end: 'for the purpose of showing the reasons for the various kinds of suffering beginning with ageing and death.' Thus, we should not see D.O. as a schedule giving us what comes first, what comes next, as a fixed order. We have to think of the purpose of the teaching of D.O. ****** Nina. 59620 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:01am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Han, Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main meditation. I could not find the sutra you are referencing (I think the problem is I don't know what the abbreviation, Vism, stands for). However, from what I remember, this interpretation, "the 3-life-times model" was only found in the commentaries. If this is the case, the Buddha may have also thought it not so simple (which is what I was taught); therefore your insight could be a correct one. The important thing is, "how well is this new insight working for you." Life is a relative term. Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- Dear Nina, In Vism XVII, 291-297, the Dependent Origination has four groups: ------------------------------ Group (a): five causes of the past: ignorance (avijjaa), formations (sankhaara), craving (tanhaa), clinging (upaadaana), and becoming (kamma-bhava). Group (b): present fivefold fruit: consciousness (vinnaana), mentality-materiality (naama-ruupa), sense-base (salaayatana), contact (phassa), and feeling (vedanaa). Group (c): five causes of now: craving (tanhaa), clinging (upaadaana), becoming (kamma-bhava), ignorance (avijjaa), and formations (sankhaara) Group (d): future fivefold fruit: consciousness (vinnaana), mentality-materiality (naama-ruupa), sense-base (salaayatana), contact (phassa), and feeling (vedanaa). ------------------------------ <...> 59621 From: Ng Boon Huat Date: Mon May 22, 2006 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Creator ? mr39515 Dear Daniel.... Hi there... > If I would say that a creator is known to us, but > it's qualities are not known > to us. The only quality that is known is its > existence. It is not total > "ignorance", only partial ignorance - we do know > about his existence, but we do > not know his qualities. Can you contradict the > existence of Such a creator > somehow? I just wonder "by what means the knowledge of the creator is known to you that you accept is so willingly and defend it so strongly?" Have you seen it for yourself?? or you heard it somewhere?? and how do you accept such tales?? In Buddhism, we were told not to accept thing blindly. Even to accept Buddhism itself, one is ask to investigate first thus, my suggestion to you is to investigate what other people is say before accepting it. I believe you do have common sense to ask question until all doubts are cleared. If you decide to accept something like "the quality of the creator is unknown to us" and stop there, I guess you just have to accept the results of your own actions. I do not blame you for not accepting what I am saying but I would encourge you to investigate what ever people is saying (including me) and one of this days, perhaps you would come to the understanding why a creator does NOT exist. Faith is the forerunner of all religions. I can see that your faith is strong with the idea of a creator but remember this, faith alone can not restand the hardship endure when one faces troubles in life. The stronger the faith the longer you last but as the life troubles increases, faith decreases. If you wish, you can move a step backward to look at things at a larger picture. Put yourself in others shoe and ask the question "does a creator exist ?" This is the path we walk alone. Where ever this path lead us is the results of you own actions.... Hope this helps Metta STEVen --- Daniel wrote: <...> > > Hmmm... I really don't understand why > is such... such > > that a creator create the created which not able > to > > understand the creator. Imperfection ?? > > I think, the reason is not neccessarily > "imperfection". I do not think that it > is a neccessity that a created being cannot > understand the creator - but it is > a possibility. <...> 59622 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 1:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? dacostacharles Tep, I think some people are always looking for a teacher. That is a motivation for caring. However, most "would-be" Arahants would have read about the test and memorized the answers, so you may be only a little better off. Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of indriyabala Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 20:42 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? Dear DSG Friends (both friendly & unfriendly ones), I think we have to constantly listen to the Teachings (through reading/discussing the suttas and, of course, the Abhidhamma). As you know, there are five benefits of good listening: "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene." [AN V.202] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% MN 112 Chabbisodana Sutta : The Sixfold Examination is the only one sutta I have seen that is about how to test whether someone is an Arahant or not! Why should you care? Well, by studying this sutta we will gain two great benefits: 1) We learn what dhamma knowledges must be possesed by the Arahant. [We can try to shoot for a few of these!] 2) We learn how to test whether a person actually has "mastered" these dhamma knowledges. In a way, it is similar to giving an oral examination to test a student's knowledge after he/she has taken all courses to meet the requirements of a university's degree program. Here is the Web address for this unique sutta : http://www.vipassana.info/112-chabbisodhana-e.htm What do you think about it? === 59623 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I know that the purpose of the D.O. is to show us that we are in sa.msaara and how to be liberated from it. I also know that we should not see D.O. as a schedule giving us what comes first, what comes next, as a fixed order. I have also noted a passage from Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi’s article “Rather, through the entire course of life, they succeed one another with incredible rapidity in an alternating sequence of result and action; the action is followed by more results; and these are again followed by still more action.” I also know that the D.O. has been treated in different ways, starting from the beginning to the end, starting from the middle to the end, starting from the end to the beginning (with birth as condition, ageing and death), from the middle to the beginning. In Vism XVII,28 I found the following: 28…..1. Herein, as different ways of teaching: the Blessed One’s teaching of the dependent origination is fourfold, namely, (i) from the beginning; or (ii) from the middle up to the end; and (iii) from the end; or (iv) from the middle down to the beginning. It is like four creeper-gatherers’ ways of seizing a creeper. And Vism. XVII, 31 describes the teaching from the end to the beginning: 31…..(iii) Just as another of the four men sees the tip of the creeper first, and seizing the tip, he follows it down to the root and takes all of it away and uses it, so the Blessed One teaches it from the end down to the beginning thus: ‘”With birth as condition, ageing-and-death”, so it was said. But is there ageing-and-death with birth as condition, or not, or how is it here? – There is ageing-and-death with birth as condition, so we think, venerable sir. “With becoming as condition, birth”, so it was said. …….. “With ignorance as condition there are formations”, so it was said. But are there formations with ignorance as condition, or not, or how is it here? – There are formations with ignorance as condition, so we think, venerable sir.” (M.i,261). I have also checked with Majjhima Nikaya (M.i,261). It is MN 38 Mahaatanhaasankhaya Sutta. However, in all these literature, I cannot find how jaraa-marana “directly” conditions the arising of avijjaa (i.e., how anga number 12 directly conditions the arising of anga number 1). If D.O. is a big circle, however much it is taught in different ways, there must be a direct linkage between the last anga and the first anga to form a circle. That is what I am looking for. Anyway, I thank you very much for your kind efforts. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > The purpose of the D.O. is to show us that we are in > sa.msaara and how to be > liberated from it. > It is said that the D.O. has been treated in > different ways, starting from > the beginning to the end, starting from the middle > to the end, starting from > the end to the beginning (with birth as condition, > ageing and death), from > the middle to the beginning. > Thus, we should not see D.O. as a schedule giving us > what comes first, what > comes next, as a fixed order. We have to think of > the purpose of the > teaching of D.O. > > ****** > Nina. > 59624 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 3:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Charles, I am sorry for the abbreviation. Vism XVII, 291-297 stands for Visuddhimagga, chapter XVII, paragraphs 291 to 297. "How well is this new insight working for me?" I am asking this question not just for me. If D.O. is one-way traffic, and if an uninstructed person believes that five causes of present life will bear fruits only in future life, and that it will not bear fruits in this very life, it may be very dangerous for him. He may then commit unwholesome deeds if he believes that he will not have to bear the results of his unwholesome deeds in this very life. Besides, if D.O. is one-way traffic, how will one explain “ditthadhammavedaniya kamma” which is an immediately effective kamma which bears fruit in the present life? With metta, Han --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Han, > > Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main > meditation. > > I could not find the sutra you are referencing (I > think the problem is I > don't know what the abbreviation, Vism, stands for). > The important thing is, "how well is > this new insight working > for you." > 59625 From: "Joop" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination jwromeijn Hallo Charles, Han, Nina Let me repeat parts of a message of some weeks ago about the two different ways of using the D.O-principles (within three life-times, within one life-time) An essay that gives good information the different aspects, is: Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality by P. A. Payutto.. Translated from the Thai by Bruce Evans ... ... (Source: http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002- dependent5.htm) A quote from it: "The description of Dependent Origination given in the previous chapter is that most often found in the scriptures and commentaries. It seeks to explain Dependent Origination in terms of the Samsaravatta, the round of rebirth, showing the connections between three lifetimes -- the past, the present and the future. Those who do not agree with this interpretation, or who would prefer something more immediate, can find alternatives not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, where the principle of Dependent Origination is shown occurring in its entirety in one mind moment, but can also interpret the very same words of the Buddha used to support the standard model in a different light, giving a very different picture of the principle of Dependent Origination, one which is supported by teachings and scriptural References from other sources. The arguments used to support such an interpretation are many. .." I'm not sure the three lifetime model is only based on commentaries (especially Buddhaghosa) but I'm sure the Buddha used the term D.O. also to the one lifetime situation Bhikkhu Buddhadasa wasone of the persons who rejected the three lifetimes-model, perhaps he exaggerated. Perhaps there are even three ways of using the D.O.- principles: "within one moment" is then the third one. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Han, > > Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main meditation. > > I could not find the sutra you are referencing (I think the problem is I > don't know what the abbreviation, Vism, stands for). However, from what I > remember, this interpretation, "the 3-life-times model" was only found in > the commentaries. If this is the case, the Buddha may have also thought it > not so simple (which is what I was taught); therefore your insight could be > a correct one. The important thing is, "how well is this new insight working > for you." > > Life is a relative term. > > > Charles DaCosta > > -----Original Message----- > Dear Nina, > > In Vism XVII, 291-297, the Dependent Origination has > four groups: > > ------------------------------ > > Group (a): five causes of the past: ignorance > (avijjaa), formations (sankhaara), craving (tanhaa), > clinging (upaadaana), and becoming (kamma-bhava). > > Group (b): present fivefold fruit: consciousness > (vinnaana), mentality-materiality (naama-ruupa), > sense-base (salaayatana), contact (phassa), and > feeling (vedanaa). > > Group (c): five causes of now: craving (tanhaa), > clinging (upaadaana), becoming (kamma-bhava), > ignorance (avijjaa), and formations (sankhaara) > > Group (d): future fivefold fruit: consciousness > (vinnaana), mentality-materiality (naama-ruupa), > sense-base (salaayatana), contact (phassa), and > feeling (vedanaa). > > ------------------------------ > <...> > 59626 From: Daniel Date: Mon May 22, 2006 4:13am Subject: Brain & Mind daniell@... Hi all, Alcohol, which is only matter, only molecules, effects our mind. Single drug molecules have a very strong effect on our mind. Also, I think i've read about an expriment while someone that was having a brain surgery, was given an electric pulse at a specific place in her brain. This caused her to laugh! I think it was repeated, and again, it caused her to laugh! If I remember correctly, she said that there was suddenly something very funny, but doesn't know exactly what (hope I remember well). So, can we deduce from that that part of our mental events are caused by the brain, by matter only? Of course, we have the feeling that we walk due to our desire to walk. So, we have the feeling that our mind, our volition has effect on our physical body. However, if it were true, physical laws would be found to be unsuitable when applied to the body. However, it is not so. The physics and the chemistry of the brain is not different from other chemical reactions, and thereis visible effect of mind - which should be, if our feeling would be true. So, doesn't this show that the feeling that we have some level of volition\free will\cetana is only an illusion? What do you think about those arguments? Metta, Daniel 59627 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? indriyabala Charles D. , Any would-be arahant does not lie or cheat or pretend. So the test questions are always effective. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Tep, > > I think some people are always looking for a teacher. That is a motivation > for caring. However, most "would-be" Arahants would have read about the test > and memorized the answers, so you may be only a little better off. > > Charles DaCosta > > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of indriyabala > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 20:42 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? > > (snipped) 59628 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 4:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce it... ken_aitch Hi Herman, ------------ H: > I am saying that an ego-bound individual will find jhana impossible, because they will find it impossible to relinquish all control. The question was an opportunity for you to ask yourself how you fared in this respect. ------------- Not very well, I'm afraid. :-) -------------------------- H: > Without fail, I always find your statements re anatta riddled with contradictions. You may well have a profound realisation of the matter, but I cannot see that from what you are saying. The fault may well lie with me. Let's not beat about the bush. Do you have a profound realisation of the matter, or do you write what you write for other reasons? --------------------------- I have no profound realisations, so it must be for other reasons. ---------------------- KH: > > In any case, it would be extraordinary of you to say we must blindly > follow the opinions of whoever makes the greatest claims of > attainment. That sort of thinking would get us into no end of trouble. > > H: > Your faith in the Buddha is based on what? ----------------------- My statements may be "contradiction riddled" but if you look closely at that one you might be able to make a little more sense of it than you have. But let's leave it there. I think we've said all we need to on this topic. Ken H 59629 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 22, 2006 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination upasaka_howard Hi, charles (and Han) - In a message dated 5/22/06 5:17:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > However, from what I > remember, this interpretation, "the 3-life-times model" was only found in > the commentaries. If this is the case, the Buddha may have also thought it > not so simple (which is what I was taught); therefore your insight could be > a correct one. ======================= Dependent origination is a complex matter, and it's application to lifetimes is but one aspect of it. However, and though not my favorite application, it most assuredly *is* a part of the original teaching. This, I think, is made clear in the Analysis of Dependent Origination sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn-12-002-tb0.html#dependent With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59630 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Joop, Thank you very much for your very valuable contributions. I like your idea. We may even have three models – three-life-time model, one-life-time model, and moment-to-moment model. With metta, Han --- Joop wrote: > Hallo Charles, Han, Nina > > Let me repeat parts of a message of some weeks ago > about the two > different ways of using the D.O-principles (within > three life-times, > within one life-time) > Perhaps there are even three ways of using the D.O.- > principles: "within one moment" is then the third > one. > Metta > Joop > 59631 From: "Joop" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:21am Subject: Re: Is there a hierarchy in (radiating) metta? Wrapping Up !! jwromeijn Hallo Tep Thanks for your renewed answers. I think you are right. What I'm reading now are some text (Bhante Gunaratana, Mahasi Sayadaw) about metta-meditation. I think that brings me further now Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi Joop (& all) - > > In order to wrap up our discussion on metta and radiating metta, let > me backtrack to the question you asked earlier. > > >Joop (#59501): > >One other questions came to my mind reading this Sutta (MN 127) > Is having "thoughts of loving kindness" the same as "radiating metta", > that is radiating metta to other beings? I think it is not. > > Tep: Let me re-phase your question as follows: Is developing > thoughts of loving kindness with regard to all beings the same as > radiating (or pervading) the thought of loving kindness to all beings? > > The Karaniya Metta Sutta [Sn I.8] is very good at describing the > thought of loving kindness with regard to all beings. > > "As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, > even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings. > With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: > Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. > Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, > as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this mindfulness. > This is called a sublime abiding here & now. [endquote] > > Tep: The good will for the entire cosmos is indeed limitless as I > discussed in an earlier post. Here the word "radiating" or "pervading" > is not used, but the result is the same -- to cultivate a limitless > "heart" (or citta) -- it is a purification of consciousness. > > Concerning the way to pervade metta to all beings, SN XLII.8 (Sankha > Sutta) describe the "broadcating" of the metta citta all over the > cosmos as follows: > > "That disciple of the noble ones, headman — thus devoid of > covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps > pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with > good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the > fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, > he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness > imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without > hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can > notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, > when the awareness-release through good will is thus developed, thus > pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no > longer stays there." > > Tep: Here there is a new word that does not appear in the above sutta, > "awareness imbued with good will". To me that means the same as > consciousness associated with metta. Again, it is a purification of > consciousness. My conclusion? They are the same! I think MN 127 > very nicely concludes everything I have presented: > ======== > MN 127: > "Householder, what is the limitless release of mind? Here, the > bhikkhu pervades one direction with thoughts of loving kindness. Also > the second, the third, the fourth, above, below and across, in all > circumstances, for all purposes, pervades the whole world with > thoughts of loving kindness, extensive, grown great and measureless > without ill will and anger." > ============ > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > ==== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > > Hallo Tep, Herman, and dearest Connie > > > > Tep, I will not do - at this moment - the homework you proposed me to > > do. > > First you asked my attention for MN 127 in which there was described > > a highest level of metta. > > I started to study that Sutta and didn't find anything you found (as > > far as I understood you) in it and asked questions about that Sutta. > > Now you will give me a next Sutta without reaction to my questions. > > > > Don't forget I'm primarely interested in radiating metta to other > > beings. And your quotes are not about that topic, they are about how > > a "monk" can get a arahant. > (snipped) > 59632 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:12am Subject: Any Cheers for Tanha? I don't think so...<1> sarahprocter... Dear Steve, (Nina, Howard, Swee Boon, Christine & all), I'm glad to read your recent posts, Steve, and helpful notes as usual, Steve. I'm reminded that we were having discussions before (with many other friends as well) on the Bhikkhuni Sutta, AN, 1V, 159 and other texts about the 'two kinds of tanha' mentioned in various texts. You, Swee Boon, Chris and others have given a link and extracts from the article, 'Three Cheers for Tanha' before: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html When we were last in Bangkok, we had some further discussions on some of the points, so I'd like to add a few more comments. 1. Bhikkhuni Sutta .................... You (Steve) wrote (#52094): "....to me it seems there is a type of tanha that does not condition rebirth. In a sense I think that could be called a tanha that does not produce suffering(five khandhas)? Its from the commentary to : `This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' (Anguttara Nikaya IV.159, Bhikkhuni Sutta) Commentary: Based on the present craving [ta.nhaa] (i. e., desire for becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was the root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth. Now (it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship) is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? It is unwholesome. Should it be pursued or not? It should be pursued [sevitabbaa]. Does it drag one into rebirth [pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? It does not drag one into rebirth." ..... More recently, Nina added some notes on the same lines (#56503) Nina: "This body has come into being through craving...through conceit...through sexual intercourse...through food. These must be abandoned. Thai Co not so clear, but I think: craving is one of the main causes for being in the cycle. Sometimes the term pre-craving is used. So long as there is conceit one has to be reborn, only the arahat has eradicated it. We are still dependent on (leaning on) craving and conceit so long as they have not been abandoned.These should be known as they are by paññaa. That is the way out." ... Sarah: A. Sujin commented that we should consider who the person is who pursues(sevitabba) such tanha and at what level. She suggested that the one who wishes to be an arahant in this context is the one who is close to arahantship and who has very slight tanha left before it is completely eradicated. It doesn't mean it’s a way to encourage anyone (even the anagami) to have tanha, but when it arises, no one can help it. It's inevitable by conditions that when the tanha arises it is (to be) followed (sevitabba). It has to be known at such times by panna in order to be eradicated. In this case, it doesn't drag one into rebirth because on attainment of arahatship, there is no more rebirth. I hope this also answers a comment you raised, Steve, about 'the tanha that does not conduce to further becoming' (in #53194). ***** 2. Nettippakarana reference ............................ In the same post, you also raised the passages from the Nettippakarana and its commentaries: ..... Steve: "As for the tanha that is to be pursued, passages from the Nettippakarana and its commentaries seem to address this point. == There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] and unskilful [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, skilful ta.nhaa is for abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of sa.msaaric activities]. As the text goes on to tell us, quoting a passage from the Majjhima Nikaaya, such skilful ta.nhaa is synonymous with an 'eager desire [pihaa] to enter the peaceful sphere that the ariyas, who having realized it by themselves, dwell in'.[36] Thus, having 'liberation of mind' (ceto-vimutti) due to the 'fading away of [unskilful] desire' (raaga-viraaga) as its object, such ta.nhaa is skilful' (Three cheers for Tanha http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html) == Nettippakarana: Tattha tanha duvidhaa, kusalaapi, akusalaapi There craving is two fold, kusala and akusala. Steve: The kusala tanha which is an eager desire to `enter the peaceful sphere that the ariyas, who having realized it by themselves, dwell in' is similar to the Bhikkhuni Sutta `'I hope that I, too, will -- through the ending of the fermentations -- enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment- release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.'" ..... Sarah: I raised your comments on these passages as well, specifically the first comments on kusala and akusala tanha. A. Sujin stressed that tanha can never be skilful, but since it will lead or be a condition for understanding by showing up and being seen for what it is, here 'skilful tanha' is used as a kind of shorthand for the understanding of the (akusala) tanha. If tanha never arose and was never seen for what it is, there'd be no way out. In this context, 'skilful tanha' is specifically kusala chanda - it's the keen interest to realize nibbana due to the fading away of tanha. The commentary makes this clear so that we don't mistake tanha for being kusala (which it never is). So, the he 'skilful' simply means the tanha which is understood with chanda and panna. ***** (to be contd) Metta, Sarah ====== 59633 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination nilovg Dear Han, op 22-05-2006 11:47 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > I know that the purpose of the D.O. is to show us that > we are in sa.msaara and how to be liberated from it. > > I also know that we should not see D.O. as a schedule > giving us what comes first, what comes next, as a > fixed order. > I have also checked with Majjhima Nikaya (M.i,261). It > is MN 38 Mahaatanhaasankhaya Sutta. > > However, in all these literature, I cannot find how > jaraa-marana “directly conditions the arising of > avijjaa (i.e., how anga number 12 directly conditions > the arising of anga number 1). If D.O. is a big > circle, however much it is taught in different ways, > there must be a direct linkage between the last anga > and the first anga to form a circle. -------- N: I think that the way it is represented it is sufficient. We speak of the cycle because, so long as the latent tendency of ignorance has not been eradicated the dying-consciousness is immediately succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. One of the many kammas committed during the uncountable lives produces the pa.tisandhi-citta. And then we start all over again, dukkha again. The first javana-cittas of every living being are cittas rooted in lobha, thus, there is immediately craving, there is clinging to life. The D.O. as presented we should not see as a cycle that has to be closed, but rather as anuloma, going forward: when there is this, there will be this, and pa.tiloma: going backwards, when there is not this, there will not be this. Nina. 59634 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:19am Subject: Any Cheers for Tanha? I don't think so...<2> sarahprocter... Dear All, 3. Visuddhimagga reference on the cow ..... Sarah: In this context, the following passage about the cow's tanha in the Visuddhimagga (XV11,40) was also raised as it's often quoted in the context of 'skilful tanha': "...just a that same cow, through her craving(ta.nhaa) for cold water, starts drinking cold water, which gives her satisfaction and allays her torment, so the worldly man in the grip of craving for becoming(bhava-ta.nhaa) performs actions of various kinds beginning with abstention from killing living beings. This leads to happy destinies and gives satisfaction because it is free from the burning defilements and, by bringing him to a happy destiny, allays the torment of suffering [that would be experienced] in those unhappy destinies." Some suggest that this quote indicates that there must be attachment in order to become enlightened. A cow is bound to have attachment for many things. Any animal could of course be used as an example! In the same way, as long as we are not arahants, there must be attachment for water or whatever else. Only the arahant has no attachment. While tanha is still there, it has to be known. Otherwise, panna can never eradicate it if it doesn't show up. ***** 4. The Brahmin Unnabha Sutta ............................. Sarah: Finally, we also discussed one further sutta that is often raised (SN 51:15 'The Brahmin U.n.naabha) in this context. It's also mentioned in the article 'Three Cheers for Tanha': Ananda says that 'it is for the sake of abandoning desire (chanda), Brahmin, that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One.' He goes on to say that chanda is to be abandoned by developing the 4 iddhi-padas, the first of which is chanda. The Brahmin Unnabha then replies that 'Such being the case, Master Ananda, the situation is interminable, not terminable. It is impossible that one can abandon desire by means of desire itself.' (Bodhi transl). However, here, the text and commentary in particular, make it clear that the chanda to be abandoned (pahaana) refers to tanha and that this is to be done by developing the iddhi padas including the wholesome chandha. This is completely fulfilled at arahantship. It is 'for the sake of abandoning chanda, that a life of excellence is lived', i.e. arahantship. The chanda to be abandoned is akusala chanda. .... So chanda can refer to kusala or akusala interest/desire. It depends on the context. Even when we read the commentaries, we have to consider the meaning and the study has to be with right understanding of the essence of the teachings, otherwise we may well go wrong again . In conclusion, If we think that somehow tanha is positive or necessary, it indicates that we don't really appreciate how the path has to be one of detachment from ignorance and clinging from the very beginning. We discussed how if it could be a path of tanha from the beginning, then there'd be no need to study, read, consider or reflect on the teachings at all. Even at a theoretical level (pariyatti), the whole of the teachings are about detachment, the very opposite of tanha. Panna is detached, tanha is attached. This is why there is a wrong path & right path mentioned so often in the texts, such as in many suttas in AN 10s. The wrong path follows wrong view and tanha. I'll look forward to any further comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ========= 59636 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/ nilovg Dear Han, well answered, here and there a remark in addition. op 22-05-2006 10:05 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > This is my continuing learning process. > I want to understand the subject more. > One way to learn more is to answer such questions. -------- N: A learning process for all of us, I would think. --------- > H: (i) Why will moral shame and fear of blame develop to > the extent that wisdom develops? > > I found the answer to the above question in SN 45.1 > Avijjaa sutta, where the Buddha said: > “Bhikkhus, true knowledge (vijjaa) is the forerunner > in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of > shame (hiri) and fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) > following along. ------- N: A very apppropriate sutta. > > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi explained on the above statement > that “True knowledge (vijjaa) is knowledge of one’s > responsibility for one’s own action > (kammassakataanaana). It is a forerunner for hiri and > ottappa in two modes..... > Han: .... With wisdom we will have more confidence in > kusala and we will see the dangers and disadvantages > of akusala, and hiri and ottappa will develop > accordingly. By this way of conascent condition and > decisive-support condition, it can be said that moral > shame and fear of blame develop to the extent that > wisdom develops. > ----------------------------- N: This is very good. I could add: Understanding and awareness of naama and ruupa will above all condition the guarding of the sense-doors and thus hiri and ottappa will become stronger. Also, at such a moments there is also shame and fear of blame of forgetfullness and ignorance of realities which appear. These cetasikas become more and more refined. Danger is seen in the slightests faults, also in moments of forgetfulness of naama and ruupa. As to kammassakataañaa.na, this is realised in particular from the first stage of insight on. It is connected with insight. Before these stages occur, we only have a vague understanding of kammassakataañaa.na. How could it be otherwise, when we do not really know what naama is as different from ruupa? Kamma is cetanaa cetasika, it is a naama, different from citta. But we do not directly know the difference between citta and cetasika. We do not really know vipaakacitta as naama. We take kamma and vipaaka for my kamma and vipaaka. ----------- > (ii) Why can moral shame and fear if blame be > classified as powers? > H: In Bodhipakkhiya Dhamma there are five powers, namely, > confidence (saddha), energy (viriya), mindfulness > (sati), concentration (samaadhi) and wisdom (pannaa). > In addition to these five powers, two more factors, > namely, moral shame (hiri) and fear of blame (ottappa) > can be added as powers, because these two factors also > support moral or wholesome actions like the first five > powers, and prevent unwholesome actions: hiri by way > of conscientious scruple, and ottappa by way of a > sense of guilt towards bad and evil states. > > The second reason is that hiri and ottappa (like the > other five powers) are, when fully developed, > unshakeable by their opposites. ----------------------------- > > (iii) What is the difference between moral shame and > fear of blame of the sotapanna and those of the > non-ariyan? > > The main difference between the moral shame and fear > of blame of the sotaapanna and those of the non-ariyan > is the level of their development, which in turn > depends on the fact that sotaapanna has already > eradicated the wrong view. ------- N: Yes, very good. I could add: for the sotaapanna wisdom and sati have become powers, baalas, they can arise at any circumstance, no matter how disturbing it might be. Also, he has an unshakable confidence in kusala, so he will use any opportunity for kusala and then there is less opportunity for akusala. But akusala cittas with ahirika and anottappa still arise, and thus he has to continue developing paññaa. It never is enough, until he has reached arahatship. ***** Nina. 59637 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >>Of course, willing is a triggering factor, in the >>sense that this message is getting typed because of the will to do so. >>Is that the kind of thing you have in mind? >> >==================== > Sure, Jon. Nothing more ... and nothing less. > OK, so what you're saying is that we do a particular action in part because there is the will or intention or desire or wish to do it. That is so much of the time, but not all the time, I think. There are times when we do something without any apparent will, intention, desire or wish. For example, involuntary actions of various kinds, or just doing something quite different to what we actually mean to. But in any event, the context of my remark was the arising of kusala or akusala. Are you saying that whether an action is accompanied by kusala or akusala mental factors also has to do with this kind of will, intention, desire or wish? Jon 59638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Ah, thank you for the clarification bringing in the more general >context! So the specifics of the clarification involve 1) determining the precise >moment of arising - which *can* occur, IMO, but rarely does, and certainly >never independent of other conditions, and, along the same lines, 2) the matter >of mastery, which, if 'mastery' implies an all-powerfulness of cetana >independent of other conditions, never holds. > As I see it, the development of kusala is not a matter of will power. I would think that everyone who has heard and understood the teachings, and a lot of folk besides who haven't, would sincerely like to have more kusala and less akusala in their lives. But the factors for its arising are other than will, intention, desire or wish. Those factors are with us all the time anyway, come kusala or aksuala, almost like breathing in and out. I don't know if this clarifies my statement further. (I'm afraid I haven't understood your summary of my clarification--determining the precise moment of arising, and the question of mastery. Would you care to amplify?) Jon 59639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... jonoabb Hi Tep indriyabala wrote: >Tep: It is great that we have the same understanding about intention >playing "a role in everything". Willing, intention, or volition to >develop kusala is the beginning of the development process that >results in kusala being developed. Just like you intend to wash your >dirty linen, but that intention does not (by itself) make the linen >cleansed. > When I say that intention plays a role in everything I'm talking about the mental factor that is 'cetana'. According to the texts, this mental factor arises with every moment of consciousness. However, cetana is not the same as what we call 'willing'. Every moment of willing involves cetana, but of course not every moment of consciousness is willing. As regards the mere arising of kusala, it seems clear to me that willing is not a necessary prerequisite. That is to say, kusala may occur without any premeditation or conscious effort on the part of the person in whom it occurs. What are your thoughts on this? Jon 59640 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Nina, I find your message the best ever explanation about the subject matter. Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: I think that the way it is represented it is > sufficient. We speak of the > cycle because, so long as the latent tendency of > ignorance has not been > eradicated the dying-consciousness is immediately > succeeded by the > rebirth-consciousness of the next life. One of the > many kammas committed > during the uncountable lives produces the > pa.tisandhi-citta. And then we > start all over again, dukkha again. The first > javana-cittas of every living > being are cittas rooted in lobha, thus, there is > immediately craving, there > is clinging to life. > The D.O. as presented we should not see as a cycle > that has to be closed, > but rather as anuloma, going forward: when there is > this, there will be > this, and pa.tiloma: going backwards, when there is > not this, there will not > be this. > Nina. 59641 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/ hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. Your additional remarks are very valuable. I have noted them very carefully. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: This is very good. I could add: Understanding and > awareness of naama and > ruupa will above all condition the guarding of the > sense-doors and thus hiri > and ottappa will become stronger. Also, at such a > moments there is also > shame and fear of blame of forgetfullness and > ignorance of realities which > appear. These cetasikas become more and more > refined. Danger is seen in the > slightests faults, also in moments of forgetfulness > of naama and ruupa. > > As to kammassakataañaa.na, this is realised in > particular from the first > stage of insight on. It is connected with insight. > Before these stages > occur, we only have a vague understanding of > kammassakataañaa.na. How could > it be otherwise, when we do not really know what > naama is as different from > ruupa? Kamma is cetanaa cetasika, it is a naama, > different from citta. But > we do not directly know the difference between citta > and cetasika. We do not > really know vipaakacitta as naama. We take kamma and > vipaaka for my kamma > and vipaaka. > ----------- > N: Yes, very good. I could add: for the sotaapanna > wisdom and sati have > become powers, baalas, they can arise at any > circumstance, no matter how > disturbing it might be. Also, he has an unshakable > confidence in kusala, so > he will use any opportunity for kusala and then > there is less opportunity > for akusala. But akusala cittas with ahirika and > anottappa still arise, and > thus he has to continue developing paññaa. It never > is enough, until he has > reached arahatship. > ***** > Nina. > > > 59642 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 22, 2006 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/22/06 9:28:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > OK, so what you're saying is that we do a particular action in part > because there is the will or intention or desire or wish to do it. That > is so much of the time, but not all the time, I think. There are times > when we do something without any apparent will, intention, desire or > wish. For example, involuntary actions of various kinds, or just doing > something quite different to what we actually mean to. --------------------------------- Howard: Well, I would suppose even involuntary actions could be conditioned by subliminal impulsion. Also, there is the effect of past volition. --------------------------------- > > But in any event, the context of my remark was the arising of kusala or > akusala. Are you saying that whether an action is accompanied by kusala > or akusala mental factors also has to do with this kind of will, > intention, desire or wish? > ---------------------------------- Howard: The desire to act wholesomely certainly is a frequent condition for acting wholesomely. Moreover past cetana has effect currently. Wholesome actions now are conditioned in part by current and past wholesome intention, and kusala vipaka now is conditioned in part by past kusala cetana. Do you think otherwise? =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59643 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 22, 2006 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/22/06 9:30:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > > > Ah, thank you for the clarification bringing in the more general > >context! So the specifics of the clarification involve 1) determining the > precise > >moment of arising - which *can* occur, IMO, but rarely does, and certainly > >never independent of other conditions, and, along the same lines, 2) the > matter > >of mastery, which, if 'mastery' implies an all-powerfulness of cetana > >independent of other conditions, never holds. > > > > As I see it, the development of kusala is not a matter of will power. I > would think that everyone who has heard and understood the teachings, > and a lot of folk besides who haven't, would sincerely like to have more > kusala and less akusala in their lives. But the factors for its arising > are other than will, intention, desire or wish. Those factors are with > us all the time anyway, come kusala or aksuala, almost like breathing in > and out. > > I don't know if this clarifies my statement further. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think it does. Were I asked to retitle your post, I think I'd use "The Impotence of Cetana, the Unimportance of Kamma." ;-) ---------------------------------- (I'm afraid I > > haven't understood your summary of my clarification--determining the > precise moment of arising, and the question of mastery. Would you care > to amplify?) --------------------------------------- Howard: Nah, I don't think I can do any better. :-) --------------------------------------- > > Jon > > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59644 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 22, 2006 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's points, and funeral. nilovg Dear Sarah, your two posts are very beautiful, thank you. op 22-05-2006 08:19 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > .... > S: . I was completely lost in > my own stories and world of feeling sad.... > I don't remember K.Sujin's words, but she smiled and almost laughed at my > tears and gently made me appreciate that they were just tears for myself, > for my own feelings, for my own loss - in other words, my own > self-indulgence! The person we'd known as Alan had already gone, the > cittas had already moved on according to kamma and it would be the same > for all of us. Nothing to grieve about and the tears would not be of any > assistance to him at all. ------- N: This is an important point to remember but not always easy to practise! The dosa is conditioned by one's own attachment to his pleasant company. But it is a bitter truth. It helps to see the futility of it all, but nobody can force his disposition. An encouragement by good friends helps as your example showed. --------- S: After the cremation, the ashes were taken out and some small bones were > laid out on trays. I was looking at them and K.Sujin could sense I was > still clinging to the idea of 'Alan'. 'Touch them, Khun Sarah!' she told > me. As I did so, she said something like 'see, just hardness'. It helped > me a lot at the time. ------- N: the bones were not Alan any longer. Evenso it helped me to see my father's corpse. It was not him anymore. One realizes that. But afterwards come the feelings of loss and it may be very hard. They are just thoughts, but we have such accumulations. ----------- S: The next day we went out in a boat.... K.Sujin and > others had to tell me more than once to throw the urn of Alan's ashes into > the water. I couldn't let go at first. My fingers were digging into the > urn. And then I did and we saw it bobbling along amongst the flowers. ------- N: I remember that friends told me afterwards that there was also photo floating on the water and that the water waves made it appear that he smiled. This was only a thought. -------- S: I think the real lesson was in 'letting go'. 'Like a gentle wind passing > through' is how we can slowly consider all our dear friends who pass by in > this life. -------- N: Difficult, but I think that the letting go has to be learnt at this very moment, by developing understanding of naama and ruupa. There is no other way, but it takes very, very long. I remember another remark of yours: experiences in our work, our travels or on the list -- but they're all > completely gone. It's only the citta now that counts. This is very > uplifting - the past can be completely left behind.> Yes, through satipa.t.thaana. Nina. 59645 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 7:48am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... indriyabala Hi Jon, There is another post of mine (written for you) about the abstaining from killing, etc., is kusala that arises here and now, at will. The abstaining action results from the willing(cetana) and chanda (with other supporting factors, e.g. saddha in the Buddha & mundane right view about wholesome & unwholesome -- see MN 9) to strictly follow the precepts, this cetana is kusala. Further, only kusala cetana is not enough (the dirty linen does not get cleansed by wishing and willing); we have to make a right effort for the sake of abandoning the akusala action (such as killing). Then we can "make" the kusala cetana come true! [You knew all this, why asked?] >Jon: >As regards the mere arising of kusala, it seems clear to me that >willing is not a necessary prerequisite. That is to say, kusala may >occur without any premeditation or conscious effort on the part of >the person in whom it occurs. What are your thoughts on this? Tep: Willing to do kusala(kusala cetana) is necessary for that kind of kusala to occur, therefore that 'kusala cetana' is a necessary requisite for inducing the result that one has desired. This "desire" is 'chanda' in the sense of iddhipaada (4 bases of power). The conscious effort (viriya + sati) is also another important prerequisite for the arising of kusala, as stated in MN 117 and DN 22 : "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. ... ..One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. ...etc." "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort." Tep: Note very carefully the wordings : arising of skillful qualities(kusala dhammas) that have not yet arisen ... increase ...culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. Did I miss something you intended to say? {:->) Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > indriyabala wrote: > > >Tep: It is great that we have the same understanding about intention playing "a role in everything". Willing, intention, or volition to develop kusala is the beginning of the development process that results in kusala being developed. Just like you intend to wash your dirty linen, but that intention does not (by itself) make the linen cleansed. > > > > When I say that intention plays a role in everything I'm talking about the mental factor that is 'cetana'. According to the texts, this mental factor arises with every moment of consciousness. > > However, cetana is not the same as what we call 'willing'. Every moment of willing involves cetana, but of course not every moment of > consciousness is willing. > 59646 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon May 22, 2006 8:09am Subject: Re: Please don't.... onco111 Hi Ken, > There has been a breakdown in communication. You wrote: Uh oh. I don't like the sound of that, especially since I thought we were doing so well...! I'm really enjoying the exchange and learning a lot in the process. But, really, Ken, if you are getting frustrated, I won't feel bad if you'd prefer to drop it. You can even say, "Yes, Dan. Let's drop it, but give me the last word" and then proceed to write a few sentences to which I wouldn't respond. Or you can just respond. Or not. In the meantime, let's take a step back... I wrote: "... an understanding of anatta at a level that inspires a conceptual formulation of: 'The Self is incapable of generating kusala'..." To which you appropriately responded: "That is not a good description (or reflection) of right understanding, is it? There is no self that is incapable (or capable) of anything!" You are right, of course. There ARE better descriptions of right understanding, and there is NO self that is incapable (or capable) of anything. However, there is a distinction between a description of an understanding and the understanding itself. I think it is entirely possible for non-Buddhists to have an understanding that there is no Self that is capable of generating kusala. However, that understanding does not go so deep or clear as "Sabbe dhamma anatta" but only deep and clear enough to recognize "sabbe kusala anatta." Wouldn't that be a wonderful realization? But how would a non- Buddhist describe it? Surely not as "sabbe dhamma anatta" because there would not have been penetration of other dhammas as anatta. More likely would be some conceptual formulation that involves the idea of "Self", e.g. "The Self is incapable of generating kusala", or "The Self is utterly corrupt"--not the greatest descriptions, but inspired by deeper insight, and a step or two removed from the Powerful, Good Self that has been such a popular model since the Enlightenment. > Ken: Therefore, I suggested, "There are only dhammas and all dhammas are without self," would be a better choice of words to reflect right understanding. Yes, of course, that is a deeper conceptual model. But, then, I was talking more about insight than concept or description. I would think that anyone who has deep enough insight to directly inspire "sabbe dhamma anatta" is an enlightened being. And there are no enlightened ones outside the dispensation (nor, perhaps, inside the dispensation in these latter days). > The trouble with my preferred choice of words was that it ruined the > point you were making. Unlike your choice of words, mine could not > logically coexist with the rider, "God alone is the author of kusala." > > I thought this was a telling outcome. It demonstrated that right > understanding could not coexist with conventional religious beliefs. I would say that there is "right understanding" and there are descriptions of "right understanding", and ne'er the twain shall meet. And there are different levels of Right Understanding, e.g. the level of "sabbe dhamma anatta" is substantially deeper than "sabbe kusala anatta". However, I'd argue that tenuous insight into the latter would be of much greater value than the most thorough strictly intellectual knowledge of the former. I'd also argue that "sabbe kusala anatta" is available to Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike; but only full understanding of "sabbe dhamma anatta" constitutes enlightenment, and THAT is available only to a Buddhist. > D: > The Christian does not *see* God or *understand* > God but only sees that "Self" is utterly corrupt and powerless, > ------------------- > > Does the Christian understand that self is, in reality, absent? How about this: The insightful Christian sees that Self is absent from kusala. > Or does the Christian see that the self is 'utterly corrupt and > powerless?' The former would reflect right view and the latter, wrong > view. I don't think it's that easy, Ken. There is not a perfect correlation between concept and reality, between an understanding and a description of an understanding. It is easy to discount words that are unfamiliar and ideas that sound strange and to cling to the familiar formulations. But at the moment of understanding, there is no word or conceptual formulation at all. Later, when the mind--out of deep-seated habit--struggles to grasp the moment of understanding; the thicket of views is planted, fertilized, and cultivated. Ditthi rushes in so very fast to convert "understanding" to "grasping". > What I was trying to say was that this "attitude that looked to God" > could not be a view of ultimate reality and still exist in kusala > consciousness. Any view that is not strictly in accordance with the > Dhamma is wrong view and akusala. So, the attitude might instead be > one of adosa and alobha towards a fellow sentient being, and in that > way part of a moment of kusala. The "strictly in accordance with the Dhamma" makes no sense to me. Any clinging to concept as reality is simply ditthi, whether that concept is "God" or "sabbe dhamma anatta" or "non-Buddhists are 100% devoid of right view at all times and in all its manifestations." Samma-ditthi doesn't get tangled up with concepts, and "strict accordance" between samma-ditthi and any conceptualization is impossible. Any accordances will be imprecise, simplified, rough--- any number of things, but not surely not "strict". What is the understanding behind the words? It is not always easy to tell. The moments of understanding arise and pass away in an instant. Then, there is a mad scramble to rationalize, conceptualize, and grasp the understanding. Nail it down, cling to it, mull it over, let it proliferate (Uh oh! Already the understanding of the understanding has morphed into a concept with a life of its own, its very own essense and truth and rightness, its own reality, its own being, its Self.) This imagining of reality in concept is extremely enticing, and we will never get free of it until enlightenment. The imagining of a strictly correct conceptualization in full accordance with Dhamma is to breathe life into concept, making it real, generating ditthi. > As we agree, right view is a cetasika, not a theory. It experiences > objects. It is equally as capable of experiencing a paramattha dhamma > as it is of experiencing a concept. Occasionally, it can become the > object of experience. It can be described in the words, "There are > only dhammas," but it cannot be described in the words, "There is a > Potent God." Sorry! :-) Sabbe kusala anatta, bro'! Sabbe kusala anatta... Metta, Dan 59647 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon May 22, 2006 8:09am Subject: RE: Please don't.... onco111 Hi Sukin, When you say: "Good to be discussing with you." I say, "Right back at you!" > However I see that I am having to speculate a lot here. So I would like to > leave it to your own judgement, whether or not we should drop this, for now > at least. Besides I feel uncomfortable at the thought that I am burdening > you and others with my long posts, to read them, more so to respond. O, Sukin! You needn't worry about me or others here. We are entirely free to read and/or respond as we wish. > Comments interspersed... > Suk:> Not know destination, but *must* have heard about the path. > This time let us consider the Buddha himself. > You are saying that the Mundane Path arose in him prior to enlightenment. ... > No satipatthana was involved... > Furthermore, he went straight and got involved in "wrong practices" for 6 > years. I doubt he would have been driven to go through all that had > satipatthana arisen in between. Wouldn't anyone who has not shattered the fetter of silabbataparamasa be susceptible to "wrong practices"? Aren't "wrong practices" bound to be a part of our repertoire until sotapattimagga? Satipatthana must develop for a long, long time before there is immunity to "wrong practices," and dedication to "wrong practices" should not be used to conclude "No satipatthana for this person!" ... >Sukin: Dan, I understand you to be saying that those outside of the sasana who saw > through the 'self' to the extent that they have, that this was because of > the experience of satipatthana. However, they did not insight or understand > the 'satipatthana' itself to know the causes and conditions for its arising. The depth of the understanding was not sufficient to know in detail the causes and conditions. The depth of understanding was only deep enough to realize that the understanding was not caused or conditioned by the Self. In fact, just the opposite. Only when the Self (or the dedication to "Self" or the idea of Self) retreats can the understanding arise. ..... > Dan: I don't think it makes any sense to say satipatthana is a much higher > level of panya than conceptual understanding (based on hearing, > reading, or cogitating). Satipatthana and conceptual knowing are > completely different modes of knowing. ... > Sukin:> I don't think so. Obviously there is a difference between one who > understands and accepts the Dhamma in principle and one who doesn't, ..... Yes, in the world of concepts there is a difference. One calls himself "Buddhist". The other does not. But the label that one gives himself tells nothing about his level of understanding. > Sukin:...between who understands correctly and one who does so wrongly. Or do you > think that it is a matter of the way it is 'thought about', perhaps the > ability to think logically about the subject? I do think that what you are saying is that the differences in the way people conceptualize their understanding ("one who...accepts the Dhamma in principle and one who doesn't") are very important. I am discounting stories and concept more than you'd like while emphasizing understanding. I'm saying that the stories are only stories; the realities that are understood are an entirely different matter. > At this very moment there are dhammas arising and falling away and obviously > there is no satipatthana arisen. However there can be an acknowledgement of > the fact of present moment dhammas, including that there *is no sati*. > Besides with this, there can also be some acknowledgement of the fact of > conditionality and anatta. And surely, this would be only intellectual, but > is it wrong? I don't think so. Is it a 'level' of understanding? I think it > is. If there is no understanding of "anatta" or "conditionality" or "sati" or "satipatthana" really are, then I'd say that the intellectualizing is mere speculation and is not "understanding". ..... > Dan: > And according to such a model, it would appear that genuine insight > springs from the thoroughly conventional practice of conceptual > speculation about doctrine. > > S:> I would say that "thinking about and speculation" is inevitable for most > of us, and this may not even always be bad. But yes, speculation is most > definitely *not* the precursor to insight. But neither is 'thinking about' a > hindrance. :-) Right. Whether our "thinking about" is "bad" or not has nothing to do with how often we do it or how much ability we have to abstain. "Thinking about" may either be bad or good depending on whether there is lobha or dosa or moha at a particular moment. Ditto for "speculation", although "speculation" is more likely to be a detriment because there are such strong tendencies for lobha ("I want to figure this out, to really grasp it") and moha ("This is the way it is. My description is reality. Your description is wrong view."). > Pariyatti (also suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna) is reference to a level > of understanding got from hearing, and so by necessity has "concepts" as > object. It appears that according to you, there is no panna of this level at > all. Are you saying that panna (of vipassana) starts with satipatthana? Is > there no basic level than this? I still don't know what pariyatti, sutamayapanya, and cintamayapanya are. But, the definitions of "panya" shift, depending on context. When I talk about "understanding" it is usually as panya cetasika as samma-ditthi of the path (mundane unless otherwise noted). And that is satipatthana. [I think a useful thread for me would be one on the notions of pariyatti, sutamayapanya, and cintamayapanya. Perhaps in a few months when I may pop in for another thread or two...] > Dan: > But just as the notion that genuine insight arises from the thoroughly > conventional practice of formal meditation is a fetter to be broken > (silabbataparamasa), the notion that insight arises from the thoroughly > conventional practice of conceptual speculation about doctrine is also a > fetter to be broken (ditthi). > > S:> I don't think it is about acquiring more knowledge in terms of lists of > concepts and any ability to think logically about them. But the opportunity > for the level of panna to arise and accumulate from "considering" the Dhamma > from whatever angle it has been presented, without expectations. In other > words panna will never say "no" to hearing and reading dhamma whenever the > opportunity arises. But I understand that most of the objection comes from > translating the above as the 'need to acquire more extensive knowledge of > ideas'. This latter would be a case of holding the snake by the wrong end, > imo. I think we are in agreement here. The difference might be that I think that "pure" concepts that are far beyond our understanding are not particularly useful--nor particularly "pure" for that matter. > Dan: > How would you describe the difference between ditthi and samma- ditthi? > > S:> One is wrong understanding of the way things are, the other is right. It's tough to argue with that! But "right" in what sense? And "wrong" in what sense? Wrong concept or wrong view? [The two are different...] ... > > What would have stopped any "right" concepts from issuing forth...? Concepts are non-existent and do not arise. Dhammically speaking, there are no "right" concepts because the concepts are not the understanding. Only the understanding is the understanding; any description of reality or understanding has flaws. Confusing the concept with the understanding is called "ditthi", a fetter to be broken. ... > Dan: > I agree that this conceptualization of the understanding must be > relinquished if enlightenment is to be achieved, but the diminution > in the attachment to "Self" (ditthi) is real and beneficial--beyond > what any purely conceptual understanding of anatta might bring, > whether outside the dispensation or not. The measure of understanding > is the degree of detachment from Self, not skill in intellectual > games. > > S:> Your line of reasoning could lead to the belief that the Buddha taught > about all being only khandha, dhatu, nama/rupa, is just one of several ways > of getting the point across, and that he might just as well have taught an > imaginary "cause", God at the beginning. No. Not at all. What distinguishes Buddha's teaching is that it reflects an enlightened understanding. But Buddha's teaching model did include lots about devas and titans and Brahma and divine messengers. He did so because such concepts are helpful to some people. Surely there are no devas (or Selves of any kind, including "You" and "Me"). These are teaching models that point to certain aspects of reality. Perfect, flawless, correct concepts? No, of course not. But none are. Not devas, bhikkhus, and precepts; not dhammas, dhatus, and ayatanas; not God, sinners, and commandments; not Jesus, Sin, and Gospel. ..... > Whatever the case may be, it seems unlikely to me, that such a view about > the 'world' could at anytime condition the perception of a paramattha > dhamma. Impersonality, yes, but not anatta. > > Having some idea about 'conditions' in relation to one's experience is > possible. But if it is still in terms of 'self', it wouldn't be the > understanding of paccaya as the Buddha taught. Any appeal to conditions > would still be in terms of 'self view'. ..... Any "appeal" is concept and not view. Is there clinging to the concept? Dosa? Confusing the concept for reality? ..... > The above said, I must say that it has long been part of my belief, that > there are folks outside of the sasana, who have better accumulations than I > have, and here I don't mean other forms of kusala which is obvious, but also > 'right understanding'. Some of them have either simply not got the chance to > hear the Teachings presented in the correct way, or else because of > 'attachment to kusala' they have subsequently grown strongly attached to > their own religion. > > The panna of these people may also manifest as conventional wisdom to an > extent more apparent than any that comes from me. And as the Buddha did with > the Devine Messengers, these folks would learn much from their own > experiences than I would have without Dhamma. > > And this is why I sometimes think that it might be more fruitful to discuss > Dhamma with these people, than would it with many so called Buddhists. Some > of the latter have made up their minds about the particular interpretation, > while those other folks may be more receptive to any correct one. ;- ) > > But no Dan, no satipatthana possible for them, I think. We differ only in our understanding of satipatthana. You prefer to link it more strongly to concept and conceptual understanding and arising from a base of speculative intellectualing first. I think of it as much more loosely linked to concept. Belief in any particular concept doesn't help satipatthana arise, but some conceptual models (those that have approximately the same depth as the person's level of understanding) help the understanding go just a bit deeper when satipatthana arises the next time. Conceptual models that are outside the appropriate depth for a particular person at a particular time tend to not be helpful. But, that being said, these are only rough patterns. No rules, no expectations to the arising. Sukin, I really do appreciate your comments and the opportunity to discuss and consider these difficult issues in a civil and rational forum. With appreciation, Dan 59648 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination matheesha333 Hi Charles, > Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main meditation. Just curious, how do you do this meditation? regards Matheesha 59649 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/ matheesha333 Hi Nina, Han >N: Understanding and awareness of naama and > ruupa will above all condition the guarding of the sense-doors and thus hiri > and ottappa will become stronger. Also, at such a moments there is also > shame and fear of blame of forgetfullness and ignorance of realities which > appear. These cetasikas become more and more refined. Danger is seen in the > slightests faults, also in moments of forgetfulness of naama and ruupa. M: Inspiring Nina. Hiri, Otappa for lack of sati sampajanna! I like this concept. Did you pick this up from a source, or is it your understanding? It deserves to be in the texts IMO. > N: ..for the sotaapanna wisdom and sati have > become powers, baalas, they can arise at any circumstance, no matter how > disturbing it might be. Also, he has an unshakable confidence in kusala, so > he will use any opportunity for kusala and then there is less opportunity > for akusala. But akusala cittas with ahirika and anottappa still arise, and > thus he has to continue developing paññaa. It never is enough, until he has > reached arahatship. M: When does indriya become bala? metta Matheesha 59650 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? matheesha333 Hi Tep, >Tep: MN 112 Chabbisodana Sutta : The Sixfold Examination is the only one > sutta I have seen that is about how to test whether someone is an > Arahant or not! Why should you care? Well, by studying this sutta we > will gain two great benefits: > 1) We learn what dhamma knowledges must be possesed by the Arahant. > [We can try to shoot for a few of these!] > 2) We learn how to test whether a person actually has "mastered" these > dhamma knowledges. In a way, it is similar to giving an oral > examination to test a student's knowledge after he/she has taken all > courses to meet the requirements of a university's degree program. M: Now,now Tep. Who are you going to test with your devious plan? with metta Matheesha 59651 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 22, 2006 11:18am Subject: metta 14 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. ****** Nina. 59652 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 22, 2006 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/ nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 22-05-2006 19:19 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > M: Inspiring Nina. Hiri, Otappa for lack of sati sampajanna! I like > this concept. Did you pick this up from a source, or is it your > understanding? It deserves to be in the texts IMO. ------- N: Kh Sujin drew my attention to it. ----------- > > M: When does indriya become bala? --------- I can answer in the case of insight, but not by experience. In the course of the development of insight vipassanaa becomes a power, see Path of Discrimination, Ch 34, attainment of cessation (nirodha), p. 95. Contemplation of impermanence is insight as power, and so on for the other characteristics, dispassion, fading away.. cessation.. relinquishment... It is unshakable, immovable and cannot be shifted by ignorance and by the defilements and aggregates that accompany ignorance, thus insight is a power.> Nina. 59653 From: Daniel Date: Mon May 22, 2006 11:54am Subject: Re: Creator daniell@... Dear STEVEen, Is it possible to continue this discussion off-list? Yours, Daniel [cut] 59654 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? indriyabala Hi Matheesha, Long time no discussion. {:<) > > 2) We learn how to test whether a person actually has "mastered" > > these dhamma knowledges. In a way, it is similar to giving an > > oral examination to test a student's knowledge after he/she has > > taken all courses to meet the requirements of a university's > >degree program. > > M: Now,now Tep. Who are you going to test with your devious plan? > > You and me! It is a long-term plan, friend. While the opportunity has not yet arisen, it is nice to know how (for the sake of knowledge). Why do astronomers keep on looking beyond our solar system? Yours truly, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > >Tep: MN 112 Chabbisodana Sutta : The Sixfold Examination is the only one sutta I have seen that is about how to test whether someone is an Arahant or not! Why should you care? Well, by studying this sutta we will gain two great benefits: > > 1) We learn what dhamma knowledges must be possesed by the Arahant. > > [We can try to shoot for a few of these!] 59655 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... Correct Vision of Nama & Rupa indriyabala Hi 'old buddy' Matheesha, In principle, one may attain the correct vision(yathabhuta-dassana) of the name & form by contemplation of the clinging aggregates based on the Dependent Origination in forward order['So with avijja as condition there are sankhara.' etc.] and reverse order [Ageing&death back to ignorance]. It also makes sense to me if we use the "four groups" of DO instead of the forward or reverse direction. What is your thought? Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Charles, > > > Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main meditation. > > Just curious, how do you do this meditation? > > regards > > Matheesha > 59656 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Scott, Thanks for your sharing your deliberations. On 21/05/06, Scott Duncan wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > Good question, this: > > "Do you think there is any other practice than mindfulness, and do you > think mindfulness requires a theory, any theory?" > > Thinking about the question I would say, I guess, yes there are other > practises. I am influenced by recent study of mindfulness and so > likely don't have the full picture, but it seems as if this "practise" > underlies, if this is the right way to say it, many of the other > things one labels "practise." I am influenced by a consideration of > the implications of anatta on the notion of "practise." > > Does mindfulness require a theory? Hmm. I know you come at things > from an experiential angle. So let's say mindfulness happens and > requires no theory in order for this to be so. Would this fit with > the way you like to come at things? That being said, might one call "theory" the way something is? Might > one consider that "theory" is inherent? OK, I see what you mean. So theory is the way stuff works / happens.. I realise that theory is > conceptual. If things occur in certain lawful ways, might it not be > possible to say that these lawful ways are the unexpressed "theory?" > By the time I form a "theory" of something, that is, explain it to > myself, I've become removed from that about which I am theorising. I > am, though, experiencing thinking or the objects of the mind at that > moment. You are here allowing room for knowing of theory to be part of theory. Which is fine, because knowing does happen. And it does have consequences. > I guess a corollary question would be whether the Dhamma as > teaching to be heard or read is, in its form, theory? Well, that's the million dollar question. Because if theory is neatly encapsulated in the tipitaka and its commentaries and sub-commentaries, then Houston has a problem. Because there is no unity of view in that opus if taken as a whole. What do you think (what is your theory)? I'm on thin ice when I try > to go by my own theories, unless they are correct of course. I like the way your mind works. :-) And of course you hit the nail on the head with your statement about the problems with theories unless they are correct. We mustn't confuse hypothesis and thesis here either. If our efforts are honest (without attachment), we set about forming hypothesis after hypothesis, and reality discards the ones that are flawed. By attrition, we arrive at a theory of reality. The theory is not so much a statement of how things are, but how things aren't. Buddhist theory is anatta, anicca and dukkha. These are all negative theories, in that they deny theories of self-existence, permanence and desirability of phenomena. Houston has a major problem with the dichotomy between the middle way of the dependent arising of all conditioned phenomena (neither self-existing nor not self-existing) of the Suttas, and the essential reality and desirability of knowing paramattha dhammas in the commentaries. From the scientific approach of the Suttas, we go to positivism in the commentaries, which is just so speculative and quite sad, really. Kind Regards Herman 59657 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 3:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Tep, On 22/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > Hi again, Herman- > > You used a question to answer a question. Gone are the says when one could answer a question as one saw fit :-) But serioulsy, I looked and looked, and couldn't find the question you were hoping to have answered directly. Please help me out. >H: > > You would understand this better than me: > > why do people pursue the making of merit? > > Is their motivation different to Hindus or Christians? > > > > True Buddhists' motivation in making a merit(pu~n~na) is not for > forever-lasting happiness with a supreme God in a speculated heaven > (with a blind faith). It is for rejoicing in this life and the next > (like a good investment for near future). Are you denying that true Buddhist motivation in making merit is for forever lasting happiness, or you don't like the God or the heaven bit? If so, leave God out, and we'll discuss speculated heavens later on. Is making merit not infused with the thought, "I will be"?. And do true Buddhists have that thought? Kind Regards Herman 59658 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dinner with Rob egberdina Hi Steve, On 22/05/06, seisen_au wrote: > > > > "In reference to the seen there will be only the seen" The > commentary to this passage recons that "with respect to the sight- > base, (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye- > consciousness." > > I don't see any issues comparing the sutta with the previous > material. Perhaps I'm missing something? The issue is one of motivation, the why of the different renderings. The way I see it, the sutta version was for the purpose of the cessation of phenomenal existence, and the other material is for the having and holding of knowledge, with ongoing phenomenal existence as a prerequisite. Kind Regards Herman 59659 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 22, 2006 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination lbidd2 Hi Han Tun and all, Just a few additional comments. As Nina said death consciousness conditions rebirth-linking consciousness so whichever links include rebirth-linking consciousness that is where the circle is completed. I believe these links are the consciousness link, the six ayatanas link, and the becoming link. Maybe Nina could verify this. Somewhere in Vism. I think it says the aasavas condition the ignorance link. It looks to me as though the aasavas are the same as the latent tendencies (anusaya), only pa.tigha (resentment, a manifestation of dosa) is included in the anusayas. The anusayas are the hidden link between feeling and craving (tanha). That is to say, feeling conditions craving but latent tendencies are also necessary for this conditioning, according to Vism. I believe latent tendencies are delivered by sa~n~naa (perception) which we could say arises with feeling. Be that as it may, ignorance always arises with craving so it would make sense that the latent tendencies would condition not only craving, but ignorance as well. Hence, I think there is a good case for saying the aasavas as condition for the ignorance link and latent tendencies as condition for the craving link are the same condition. Aasavas (taints) are sense desire (kaamaasava), desire for continued existence (bhavaasava), views (di.t.thaasava), and ignorance (avijjaasava). Anusaya (latent tendencies) are sensuous greed (kaama-raga), resentment (pa.tigha), views (di.t.thi), doubt (vicikicchaa), conceit (maana), craving for continued existence (bhavaraaga), and ignorance (avijjaa). One might well say that nibbana is the cessation of the perceptual habits that are the anusayas. Larry 59660 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 4:54pm Subject: Re: Dinner with Rob philofillet Hi Steve > I'm not aware of Ledi Sayadaw's understanding of visible object, so I > cant really comment on that. I can't either. And I don't remember the page number in CMA on which Rob pointed out Bhidkkhu Bodhi's reference to Ledi Sayadaw. And not having time these days to track it down. But perhaps if other's want to. (Rob, if you see this, could you post the page number? Thanks.) >My understanding is that the rupa that > is visible object is one of the 8 inseparable rupas; the four Great > Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and rupa > (visible object), odour, flavour and nutrition. This is my understanding too - not direct, of course! While sometimes > visible object is referred to as different shapes, as in the > Dhammasangani, the commentaries explain that in reality such shapes > are not directly a visible object, which I interpret to mean they are > conceptual/pannatti. The commentaries seem to gloss the rupa that is > visible object as vanna or colour. I would agree with Rob, that in > some suttas visible object may sometimes be referring to a concept, > but in terms of differentiating between pannatti and paramattha these > couple of quotes from Khun Sujin seem relevant. Thanks for the above, and the quotes to follow. I have read and reread "Realities and Concepts" several times so those grapes are very familiar to me! :) I will continue along this line of understanding, I think. But who knows? Phil 59661 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:00pm Subject: ADL Ch.1 Seeing and eye sense and visible object philofillet Hi all from Abhidhamma in Daily Life, ch. 1 "Seeing cannot arise when there is no eye sense and when there is no visible object." Of course, this is not limited to abhidhamma. We find it in so many suttas. (I only know SN 35.) It is easy to mistakenly believe that we have control over what we see. There are conditions at work. There is no self that has control over what we see. I find this sort of thing very helpful. Phil 59662 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] metta 14 egberdina Hi no-one in particular, On 23/05/06, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. > > The distance from here to the brahma planes is difficult to fathom. If a > stone which has the size of a tall building would travel from the lowest > brahma plane as fast as 48.000 yoyanas (one yoyana being 16 km.) a day, it > would take four months before it would reach the earth. The lowest brahma > plane is as far as that, and the higher planes are still further away. Such distances are no longer unfathomable these days. But it is interesting to note that planes of existence are described in terms of spatial extension and location. It leaves the metaphysical open to empirical verification / falsification. It reminds me of when the Russians first travelled in space and upon returning to Earth announced they found no trace of God. Of course those findings are no impediment to continued literal readings of sacred scriptures of all kinds. Kind Regards Herman 59663 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53pm Subject: Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Ah, now there is something to hone in on, my good man. H: "OK, I see what you mean. So theory is the way stuff works / happens.." Yeah, and I guess I'm using the term in a rather loose way. That which "is" exists already. The theory arises, I guess. H: "You are...allowing room for knowing of theory to be part of theory. Which is fine, because knowing does happen. And it does have consequences." A good "theory" must, in my opinion, be as over-arching a thing as possible. I'm not so sure I would consider the Dhamma to be theory - I'm still pondering that. Why? It is True. Now the way I understand it - that is definitely theory until understanding arises unbidden. That's no theory. H: "Well, that's the million dollar question. Because if theory is neatly encapsulated in the tipitaka and its commentaries and sub-commentaries, then Houston has a problem. Because there is no unity of view in that opus if taken as a whole." May I suggest, Herman, that the unity of view or lack thereof likely exists within those who try to comprehend the contents of the Three Baskets and not within the Dhamma itself. Of course, the cynical view would be to begin to question the veracity of the sources for Dhamma we have inherited all these centuries later. My small point is to suggest that "theory" inheres, that's all. A whole discussion could evolve in which you show me this lack of unity of view that you mention. Is this a possibility? One could take a subject and examine it from the sutta and the abhidhamma modes of analysis. There are different modes of analysis amongst at least the Suttas and the Abhidhamma, but is this what you are referring to? H: "Houston has a major problem with the dichotomy between the middle way of the dependent arising of all conditioned phenomena (neither self-existing nor not self-existing) of the Suttas, and the essential reality and desirability of knowing paramattha dhammas in the commentaries. From the scientific approach of the Suttas, we go to positivism in the commentaries, which is just so speculative and quite sad, really." Who is Houston when he's at home? Okay, you've said a mouthful here and I need some help before I really try to comment. 1. Can you explain the first dichotomy you postulate above? If I get it you see pitted against one another something you call "the middle way of the dependent arising of all conditioned phenomena (neither self-existing nor not self-existing)" and "the essential reality and desirability of knowing paramattha dhammas in the commentaries." 2. Can you explain the second dichotomy you postulate above? You see pitted against one another something you call "the scientific approach of the Suttas" and "positivism in the commentaries...[editorial omitted]." I'll comment on these two briefly, but really must wait until your upcoming kind clarifications. 1. Don't you realise that there are two separate modes and levels of inquiry here? These are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive. 2. I don't know what the difference is between the "scientific approach" and "positivism," which is why I need your clarifications. Are they not, relatively speaking, synonymous? At any rate, my good man, I await your reply. Sincerely, Scott. 59664 From: "indriyabala" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... indriyabala Hi Herman, I hope you are now in a good mood to continue the discussion. {:-|> (The older and wiser avatar has grown a beard!) >H: > But serioulsy, I looked and looked, and couldn't find the question >you >were hoping to have answered directly. Please help me out. > Tep: Sorry! My question was implied : >>Tep: That sound pretty interesting. But I am not sure I understand >>"everlasting existence" (it sounds like a heaven of Hinduism or >>Christianity). The (intended) question is "What do you mean by everlasting existence?". .......... > Are you denying that true Buddhist motivation in making merit is for forever lasting happiness, or you don't like the God or the heaven bit? If so, leave God out, and we'll discuss speculated heavens later on. Is making merit not infused with the thought, "I will be"?. And do true Buddhists have that thought? Tep: Yes, I am denying that true Buddhists make merit simply for "lasting happiness", because their goal is Nibbana (or at least Sotapanna). The thought 'I will be', if any, is certainly destined to be eradicated by the path knowledge. With that answer my avatar has become wiser! {:-|>> Warm regards, Your friend Tep ===== ==== ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > On 22/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > > > > Hi again, Herman- > > > > You used a question to answer a question. > > > Gone are the says when one could answer a question as one saw fit :-) (snipped) > > > >H: > > > You would understand this better than me: > > > why do people pursue the making of merit? > > > Is their motivation different to Hindus or Christians? > > > > > > > True Buddhists' motivation in making a merit(pu~n~na) is not for > > forever-lasting happiness with a supreme God in a speculated heaven > > (with a blind faith). It is for rejoicing in this life and the next > > (like a good investment for near future). > > (snipped) > > Kind Regards 59665 From: han tun Date: Mon May 22, 2006 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Larry and Nina, I combine the following two passages: Nina: The first javana-cittas of every living being are cittas rooted in lobha, thus, there is immediately craving, there is clinging to life. Larry: Be that as it may, ignorance always arises with craving -------------------- Han: Therefore, as the first javana-cittas of every living being are rooted in lobha or tanhaa, that is the time avijjaa also arises. And as both of you said, whichever links include rebirth-linking consciousness that is where the circle is completed. Thank you very much both of you. Respectfully, Han --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Han Tun and all, > > Just a few additional comments. As Nina said death > consciousness > conditions rebirth-linking consciousness so > whichever links include > rebirth-linking consciousness that is where the > circle is completed. > Be that as it may, > ignorance always arises with craving ...... 59666 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon May 22, 2006 10:07pm Subject: Re: Please don't.... ken_aitch Hi Dan, To my mind, our discussions offer the best of both worlds. They are meaningful – because we base our ideas on the same texts – and they are spirited – because you stubbornly refuse to toe the Party line. :-) ----------------- <. . .> D: > if you are getting frustrated, I won't feel bad if you'd prefer to drop it. ----------------- Not at all! I was worried that I was missing your point, and that, in so doing, I was being overly argumentative (arguing against statements I would otherwise have agreed with). -------------------------------- <. . .> D: > However, there is a distinction between a description of an understanding and the understanding itself. I think it is entirely possible for non-Buddhists to have an understanding that there is no Self that is capable of generating kusala. --------------------------------- That's a big statement, and it is only after a lot of discussion that I have begun to see what you mean by it. I think we have established that, by `understanding,' you mean the real thing - samma-ditthi as a factor of mundane path consciousness (satipatthana). So you really are making a big statement. ------------------------------------------ D: > However, that understanding does not go so deep or clear as "Sabbe dhamma anatta" but only deep and clear enough to recognize "sabbe kusala anatta." ------------------------------------------ What do the texts say about panna arising outside the dispensation? I know they say that non-Buddhists can practise jhana, which is kusala concentration developed by a form of panna. Do they say that that same form (or level) of panna can know kusala as anatta?" I don't think so. It knows the difference between kusala and akusala, and it can identify even the most subtle forms of lobha-cetasika as being akusala. However, it cannot identify lobha-cetasika (or any other cetasika) as being a cetasika. It does not know the difference between nama and rupa. So, if any non-Buddhist – even a jhana master - were to conclude, "All kusala is anatta," that would be based on speculation, not on panna. ---------------- <. . .> D: > I would say that there is "right understanding" and there are descriptions of "right understanding", and ne'er the twain shall meet. ---------------- True. We could also say there are descriptions of right understanding and descriptions of wrong understanding, but any description that is mere speculation (that is not seen with right understanding) is wrong understanding. I think that explains how, in some suttas, even "There is no self" is defined as wrong understanding. In other suttas the Buddha specifically declares, "In truth and reality, there is no self." --------------------------- <. . .> D: > There is not a perfect correlation between concept and reality, between an understanding and a description of an understanding. It is easy to discount words that are unfamiliar and ideas that sound strange and to cling to the familiar formulations. But at the moment of understanding, there is no word or conceptual formulation at all. Later, when the mind--out of deep-seated habit--struggles to grasp the moment of understanding; the thicket of views is planted, fertilized, and cultivated. Ditthi rushes in so very fast to convert "understanding" to "grasping". ----------------------------- We agree that mere speculation can be described in any form of words, but I am not so sure the same can be said about right view. I am going over old ground here, but I think right understanding of concepts-of-dhammas goes hand in hand with right understanding of actual dhammas. Therefore, a practitioner of satipatthana would know all the right conceptual explanations of nama and rupa, and of their conditioned, momentary arising, and so on. He would be most unlikely to use the concept, "All kusala is anatta" and stop there. He would say, "All dhammas are anatta." --------------------------- KH : > > Any view that is not strictly in accordance with the > Dhamma is wrong view and akusala. <. . .> D: > The "strictly in accordance with the Dhamma" makes no sense to me. ---------------------------- I think we have agreed there is no ditthi at whatever level that is partly right and partly wrong. To me, that means a view of the ultimate nature of the world is either entirely consistent with the Dhamma, in which case it is right view, or in some way inconsistent, when it is wrong view. Ken H 59667 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 23, 2006 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL Ch.1 Seeing and eye sense and visible object nilovg Hi Phil, I am just adding a few things. op 23-05-2006 02:00 schreef Phil op philco777@...: > > from Abhidhamma in Daily Life, ch. 1 > > "Seeing cannot arise when there is no eye sense and when there is no > visible object." > > Of course, this is not limited to abhidhamma. We find it in so many > suttas. (I only know SN 35.) > > It is easy to mistakenly believe that we have control over what we > see. There are conditions at work. There is no self that has control > over what we see. I find this sort of thing very helpful. -------- N: As we read in many suttas, on account of what we see, there may be akusala cittas (then there is unwise attention) or kusala cittas (then there is wise attention) and so for all the six doorways. Through the Abhidhamma we learn about the different processes in detail. also in the eye-door process of cittas there are javana cittas which are akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Very shortly after the eye-door process cittas there are mind-door process cittas which experience visible object and if the javana cittas of the sense-door process cittas were akusala cittas, also the javana cittas in the following mind-door process are akusala cittas. After that there are other mind-door process cittas which define visible object, name it, know what it is. These are either akusala cittas or kusala cittas. The mind-door process cittas are alternated with eye-door process cittas and it is all like a flash. We cannot catch when there are sense-door process cittas and when mind-door process cittas. At the first stage of insight the difference is known, it is understood what a mind-door process is. Nina. 59668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 23, 2006 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination nilovg Dear Han and Larry, As Larry said, we have to think of the latent tendencies, anusayas, which are only completely eradicated by the arahat. They lie dormant in each citta. No Larry, they are not the same as the aasavas. The aasavas arise with akusala citta, and the anusayas do not arise with akusala citta, they condition the arising of akusala citta. Saññaa arises with each citta and I do not see a particular connection of saññaa and the aasavas. Lobha and ignorance are anusayas, and so long as these are not eradicated there will be rebirth. I appreciate your deepgoing questions, Han. They cause me to look up tetxs and consider more, so that I discover things I did not know before. It is all a question of teamwork in this way. Nina. op 23-05-2006 03:52 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > > I combine the following two passages: > > Nina: The first javana-cittas of every living being > are cittas rooted in lobha, thus, there is > immediately craving, there is clinging to life. > > Larry: Be that as it may, ignorance always arises with > craving > > -------------------- > > Han: Therefore, as the first javana-cittas of every > living being are rooted in lobha or tanhaa, that is > the time avijjaa also arises. And as both of you said, > whichever links include rebirth-linking consciousness > that is where the circle is completed. 59669 From: "Joop" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > > Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main meditation. > Just curious, how do you do this meditation? > > regards > > Matheesha Hallo Matheesha, Charles, Tep, Han D.O. can also very good be used in vipassana- (insight-) meditation and of course also in being mindful in daily life. Especially "D.O. in one moment". The first six factors one can at that moment not influence. But one can be mindful that phassa (a contact) gives tanha (desire) And one can be mindful that a tanha gives upadana (attachment) The rest of the cycle as a result; but sometimes - by being mindful - phassa does just falls away and does not give tanha. That's not much but it's a beginning. Metta Joop 59670 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 1:24am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 453- Non-Attachment/Alobha (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha) ***** Non-attachment, alobha, is one of the three sobhana hetus, beautiful roots. A root (hetu or múla) gives a firm support to the citta and cetasikas it arises together with. All sobhana cittas are rooted in non-attachment, alobha, and non-aversion, adosa, and they may or may not be rooted in wisdom, paññå. Thus, nonattachment has to accompany each sobhana citta. •***** Ch28 - Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== 59671 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Supramundane Cittas sarahprocter... Hi RobM (& Phil), Thanks for telling us about your get-together. As usual, Phil's account had us in stitches....:-). Oh so daily life - yes, even during a dhamma discussion, lots of different kusala and akusala cittas in between the sense door processes. Looking f/w to your next get-together report already! Rob, I'm not sure this question was answered, so here's a brief reply: --- robmoult wrote: > A quick question regarding cetasikas accompanying supramundane cittas. > > I understand that the three abstinences arise together with > supramundane cittas. If I understand correctly, they arise together > because, at that moment, they are factors of the Noble Eightfold Path ..... S: Yes .... > If I understand correctly, the Right Thought factor of the Noble > Eightfold Path corresponds to the vitakka cetasika. .... S: Yes .... > > I am confused because according to BB's CMA (p112), vitakka does not > arise in all supramundame mental states (only those with the 1st jhana). .... S: Here 'those with the 1st jhana' includes lokuttara cittas arising without immediately preceding jhanas too (i.e sukkha vipassaka lokuttara cittas). When 2nd jhana upwards immediately precede the lokuttara cittas and nibbana is experienced with absorption of 2nd jhana factors upwards, then vitakka is not included. We had some long discussions on this very point with Htoo before who was not convinced:-). Please take a look at these messages and let me know if you have any further comments: From U.P. Jhana15 – vitakka, ‘sevenfold’ path #45633, 47560, 47610, 56221, 56222, 56235, 56236 --------------------------------------------------- Thx for the good questions and comments as usual, Rob. Metta, Sarah ======== 59672 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 5 Clusters of Clinging ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, I usually don't comment, but I appreciate all your quotes and explanations. I keep many aside for reference. I have a few comments on your explanation on this one, however. I'd be glad of any feedback. --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > There are these five Clusters of Clinging (Khandha): > > The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five Clusters of > Clinging. What five? > > 1: The Cluster of Clinging to Form... > 2: The Cluster of Clinging to Feeling... > 3: The Cluster of Clinging to Perception… > 4: The Cluster of Clinging to Construction… > 5: The Cluster of Clinging to Consciousness… ,...> > Explanation: > The Cluster of Clinging to Form is internally as ‘own body’ & externally > as appearing as ‘my world’ & ‘others body’… .... S: I believe there can be clinging to any rupa - not just the rupas of one's own body or others' bodies. For example, now there can be clinging to visible object, tangible object or sound as we type away. I agree that the greatest clinging is usually to the rupas of our own bodies. .... > The Cluster of Clinging to Feeling is the obsession with pleasant > feeling, painful feeling and neutral feeling… > The Cluster of Clinging to Perception is the monomaniac fascination of > the diverse objects of the six senses… .... S: I like your colourful use of language! .... > The Cluster of Clinging to Construction is fixated passion for > intending, planning, attending, thinking, worrying … .... S: Surely this is the clinging to any of the cetasikas (mental factors)apart from vedana and sanna? Perhaps what you have given in each case are just meant as examples, now I think of it. .... > The Cluster of Clinging to Consciousness is addiction to the seen, > heard, smelt, tasted, touched, and cognized… .... S: Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it is the 'addiction to the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing'? For example, what is seen is visible object. It is not consciousness, it is rupa. Perhaps we just use the words in different ways, but I think it's important to clearly distinguish the experiencing from the experienced. This is why they have different khandhas. ... Any comments or clarification from you would be welcome. Thank you again for all your work in sharing these extracts with us, Venerable Sir. With respect, Sarah ======= 59673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:32am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 77 and Tiika. Part I. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 77. Part I. Conascence-Condition (Sahajåta-Paccaya) Intro: A dhamma never arises alone, it is supported by other dhammas that arise together with it at the same time. The Påli term sahajåta in sahajåta-paccaya means: that which has arisen together. In the case of conascence-condition, a conditioning dhamma, paccaya dhamma, on arising, causes the conditioned dhammas, paccayupanna dhammas, to arise simultaneously with it and in this way assists it. Citta cannot arise without cetasika and cetasika cannot arise without citta, they condition one another by conascence-condition. Citta needs for example the cetasika phassa, contact, which contacts the object so that citta can cognize it. Thus, citta is conditioned by phassa by way of conascence. Phassa is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas by way of conascence. When phassa accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala and when it accompanies kusala citta it is also kusala. Also ruupas do not arise alone, they arise in groups. The four great Elements have to accompany the other ruupas of each group. The four great Elements condition one another by way of conascence-condition. They also condition the other ruupas, the derived ruupas, of the group they arise together with by way of conascence. --------- Text Vis. 77: (6) A state that, while arising, assists [another state] by making it arise together with itself is a 'conascence condition', as a lamp is for illumination. ------ N: The Tiika states as to the dhamma which assists another dhamma by way of conascence-condition, that this is to be understood not only for its arising but also for its presence, otherwise the simile of the lamp which is for illumination could not be applied. It states that a lamp is a condition for the presence of light, not only for its origination. As we shall see, citta and cetasikas that arise together assist one another by way of conascence condition, and this means that they assist one another also at the very short moment of their presence. It is the same for the ruupas that arise together. ----------- Text Vis.: With the immaterial aggregates, etc., it is sixfold, according as it is said: '(i) The four immaterial aggregates are a condition, as conascence condition, for each other; ------ N: The Vis. classifies this condition as sixfold and also ruupas, as well as naama and ruupa that arise together are included. Firstly, the four naama khandhas, citta and its accompanying cetasikas, that arise together, assist one another by way of conascence-condition. --------- Text Vis.: (ii) the four great primaries are ... for each other; ------ N: The four great Elements of Earth (solidity), Water (cohesion), Fire (temperature) and Wind (motion) always arise together and accompany each group of ruupas, and these four great Elements assist each other by way of conascence. ----------- Text Vis.: (iii) at the moment of descent into the womb mentality and materiality are a condition, as conascence condition, for each other; ------- N: The Tiika adds: at the moment of rebirth-consciousness. Having come from another world, naama and ruupa are as it were descending, entering the womb. Therefore he said: at the moment of descent into the womb. Ruupa refers here to the heartbase, the Tiika explains. At the moment of rebirth, the rebirth-consciousness and the heartbase condition one another by way of conascence-condition. The text explains in a figurative way (in Pali: viya) the descent into the womb of naama and ruupa. The Tiika also adds that citta at that moment does not originate ruupas. The rebirth-consciousness is too weak to produce ruupa. During life, kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition originate ruupas. At the moment of rebirth-consciousness kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and also ruupas. It produces at the first moment of our life three groups of ten ruupas: one group with the heart-base, one group with bodysense, one group with sex. (to be continued) ********* Nina. 59674 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's points, and funeral. nilovg Dear Sarah, Very good examples of mana. We cannot hear enough of them, since it occurs all the time. The sense of self-importance is there. Nina. op 22-05-2006 08:04 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > It's mana when we think we could arrange things better > (even if we really could). At the back of our mind there's the idea that > if we were running the stores, in charge of the design, running the show > instead of the others, organising discussions or the travel itinerary, > that somehow we'd do better. Our sense of self-importance is there. > There's no understanding at such times of conditioned dhammas, but we have > an idea of being 'the world's manager'. Since that time, I've found it's > very common to have such ideas and to not see the mana and other akusala > dhammas, being lost in the dream about the big improvement we could make > instead. 59675 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. nilovg Hi Tep, op 20-05-2006 23:29 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > Let's compare your statement on "how sati develops" with the sutta > quote from the fourth Fifty suttas, § 156, the destruction of the lure > (III). > >> Nina (#59513): We do not develop it, *it* develops when it arises and > is aware over and over again of whatever appears through one of the > six doors, through one doorway at a time. > >> Nina's Sutta quote (in #59542): Yes, many suttas, especially in K.S. > 35, and elsewhere. The fourth Fifty suttas, § 156, the destruction of > the lure (III): karotha), brethren, to the eye, and regard its true nature as > impermanent (ruupaaniccata.m ca yathaabhuuta.m). He who so applies his > mind thoroughly to the eye, and so regards it, feels repelled by the > eye (nibbindita). By the destruction of the lure ( of delight, > nandikkhayaa), comes destruction of lust, with the destruction of lust > comes the destruction of delight. With the destruction of delight and > lust the mind is well liberated... And so for the other sense-organs...> > > Tep: With all due respect I don't think that this sutta quote supports > your above description of the process of sati development, Nina. Your > description ignores the mind as the agent in charge of sati > development, and focuses instead on the sati as the self developer or > self improvement! ------- N: I see it differently, not the mind as an agent in charge of sati. Is that not reification, as Howard warns us so strongly for? Sati and also many other sobhana cetasikas accompany kusala citta, they are conascent, condition one another by conascence-condition (See Vis. study today). -------- T: The sutta says that you apply "the mind" (through > yoniso-manasikara) to the eye and see the dangers associated with > having delight in what is being seen. ------ N: I see it differently. When, after seeing, kusala cittas arise there is wise attention to the object, yoniso manasikaara, and when akusala cittas arise, there is unwise attention, ayoniso manasikaara. -------- T: The result of such contemplation > is nibbida, the destruction of delight(nandi). ------- N: This is a stage of insight. It arises through paññaa, right understanding of the object that appears. --------- T: But, you think sati > arises to be aware of what is appearing through the "eye-door", and > sati develops itself!! ------- N: Sati, paññaa and the other Path factors develop together when the right conditions are present. ----------- T:What you think is the familiar interpretation of the Paramattha-dhamma taught by Khun Sujin. --------- N: Not by Kh. Sujin, but according to the Tipitaka, and commentaries. Did you read her Survey of Paramattha Dhammas? Can I be of any help here? I wonder where you see any discrepancy. But I do not wish to intrude anything upon you, we can also leave the matter if you like. ---------- T: please read Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on > sati development below : his is clearly based on the idea in the suttas. <.....The whole process is a way of coming back into the present, > of standing in the here and now without slipping away, without getting > swept away by the tides of distracting thoughts."> -------- N: Also distraction is a reality and has to be known. I admire Ven. Bodhi as a translator, but when he speaks as a meditation master I think differently. ------- T, from the other post: Tep: A drug that suppresses tanha-induced brain activities also stops the longings. Does that mean the drug can control the citta and cetasikas through the citta's produced ruupa? -------- N: I was not quite clear. All over the body there are ruupas produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition, and this goes also for the ruupas we call brain. But these ruupas fall away immediately. Also drugs are ruupas. They are a kind of nutrition and can produce ruupa. But the medical field sees things from a difficult angle and it is confusing to mix science and dhamma. --------- --------- >N: The listeners have to be openminded to the Abhidhamma to begin with. One cannot just educate people in the Abhidhamma ;--)) -------- Tep: Then can you educate people to be open-minded first? ---------- N: I cannot, it depends on their accumulations. I do not wish to intrude any view upon you or others. When people are interested I rejoice in their interest and like to be of help if I can. I am disinclined to debates and argumentations. Nina. 59676 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii sarahprocter... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Kel: Yes, I remember our discussion well. I made a point that the > logic you were using would mean a Bodhisatta could 'accidently' > become enlightened prematurely and we got into this side discussion. .... S: I don't recall that conclusion or how it followed my logic. If you can be bothered, please spell it out again for me. .... > > > Kel: Statement about cula-sotapanna only applies to the very > next > > > life only otherwise there's no difference to a regular > sotapanna. > > .... > > S: Do you have any reference to show that it only applies to 'the > very > > next life'? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. <..> > Kel: I don't have an original text reference handy but here's one > from Mehm Tin Mon, Buddha Abhidhamma (my class's text), p.144. > > Cula-Sotàpanna (Junior Stream-winner) > > `Sotàpanna' is a noble person (Ariya) who has eliminated ditthi > and vicikicchà completely. He will never be reborn in the apàya > abodes and he is destined to enter Nibbàna in no more than seven > rebirths in the kàma-planes. > > Now the yogi, who has attained Nàma-rupa-pariccheda-nana > and Paccaya-pariggaha-nana, has temporarily eliminated ditthi and > vicikicchà as described above. So he resembles a sotàpanna but he > is not a sotàpanna yet. He is called a cula-sotàpanna meaning a > junior-sotàpanna. He will not be reborn in the apàya abodes in > his subsequent life. <----- > > Notice that two the nanas obtained here aren't even ten vipassana- > nanas yet so to be guaranteed no more woeful rebirths would be too > much if you think about it. ... S: I believe I gave references before to indicate the cula-sotapanna wouldn't be reborn in apaya abodes again in the 'Musing'. "He is a Lesser Stream Enterer of assured destiny." (Sammohavinodani, 1174). I concluded that 'So from these commentary passages, it would suggest that a Cula sotapanna, i.e someone who has attained to the 2nd stage of insight is of ^assured destiny ‘niyatagatika’, is assured of higher rebirths and will not be reborn in hell realms.^ For the sotapanna-to-be, there will be conditions to attain the higher stages and there will never be a return to woeful planes as I understand it.'. I would be interested in seeing any references Dr Mehm Tin Mon has in mind. It's a difficult topic. Also, as I mentioned, there are various accounts of births in hell realms in the Jatakas,so even by Dr Mehm's logic, it would follow that the bodhisatta had not attained this degree of insight (2nd stage of insight)in lives before the ones immediately preceding the ones followed by rebirth in hell-planes. But, I think the commentaries make it clear that 'of assured distiny' denies rebirth in hell planes. Pls let me know if you find anything further. If you have a chance, also ask your class and Abhidhamma teacher what he understands by 'niyatagatika’ in this regard. .... > Kel: I think you're reading too much into the texts due to slight > changes in translations that are misleading. I just saw Ledi > Sayadaw's Dipani translation that seem to claim the same thing you > said. I'll see if I can read the Burmese equivalent and ask my > teacher about Pali of Vism. this saturday. .... S: I'll look forward to both of these. .... > >S: I believe that anuloma has different meanings in different > contexts. > > Kel: Didn't we have an explanation of multiple meanings of anuloma > from Ven Dhammanando as part of original discussion. As he said, > this anuloma means BEFORE magga vithi and not the anuloma citta > before magga citta. There's no intention of striving for > magga/phala so the highest vithis that will occur are kusala vithis > with sankharaupekkha-nana. So magga vithi will not arise at all, > not stopping midway as you suggest as my position. .... S: Yes, I'd forgotten this. I apologise - it was all sometime ago. The contention as you say was that it was sankharupekkha-nana that was being referred to rather than anuloma citta in the magga vithi. Even so, at this great stage of insight,there is already a turning away from conditioned dhammas and this insight conditions the turning away from the state of being a worldling, leading to emergence (vu.t.thaana gamini pa~n~naa). .... > Kel: So some people (pacceka-Buddhas to be) can practice based on > what they heard in previous lives and use it somehow. I think it's > reasonable people can be exposed to teachings this or previous lives > and end up following them due to accumulations. Actually, some Deva > and Brahmin questions to Buddha are based on teachings of previous > Buddhas that have been diluted, fragmented or mutated over time. I > think it's hard line position to say it can never happen because you > can't know every person. .... S: Apart from pacceka Buddhas outside the sasana, I think that only a sotapanna does not need to be exposed to the teachings in the present life-time. That's why it's impossible even in the arupa realms to become enlightened, to become a sotapanna. The Devas or Brahmins you mention had to hear the Buddha in order to develop satipatthana, I'm sure. Of course, their previous good accumulations would be a support for insight to arise. We read accounts of bhikkhus and bhikkhunis who had memorised the entire teachings and taught them under previous Buddhas, but not attained any insight at all. As we know, it's not just a matter of reciting the right words. .... > Kel: Well if I'm right that Boddhisattas do obtain up to > sankharupekkha-nana in lives before final one then your argument > falls apart. So I guess it depends on the original point of > contention. I still think your theory cannot account for pacceka- > Buddhas but you just consider as it as special case. It would make > sense to me to consider natural laws applies equally to all beings. > I believe if you take into account that to be anointed as Bodhisatta > requires the potential to become an arahat in that life already > means the ingredients are already in place. They are just not > polished enough to accomplish higher goals like chief disciples or > Buddhahood. .... S: There are very special conditions as you know for becoming chief disciples or a Buddha, including the right aspiration before a Buddha and so on. ... >Isn't it weird to work on highest panna parami without > at least some vipassana-insight? .... S: Yes, I find it difficult to comprehend as well, but I've had it explained to me about all the ingredients being ready for those final attainemnts in the last life. ... > > Kel: This goes back to lofty position you put vipassana nanas in > out original discussion and lower nanas with your contention about > cula-sotapanna. If you look at where they would fall in citta > categorization then it would necessiarly have to be kusala only. > They cannot destroy any fetters so still subject to woeful existence. .... S: Let's keep this discussion open. They are fine points. .... > > > S: I'll also be glad to have any further feedback from your Abhid. > > Teacher on the 'Musing' you just saw. > Kel: He cannot read english well so it'll be based on what I tell > him, hehe. But crucial point I saw is the one we're discussing > already, was there any other points? ... S: he he.. Oh, you can just tell him about this weird lady on the internet....;-). I think you've got a fine grasp of the main points of controversy here. Good to see you around, Kel. Metta, Sarah ===== 59677 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brain & Mind egberdina Hi Daniel, On 22/05/06, Daniel wrote: > > Hi all, > > Alcohol, which is only matter, only molecules, effects our mind. > Single drug > molecules have a very strong effect on our mind. Also, I think i've read > about > an expriment while someone that was having a brain surgery, was given an > electric pulse at a specific place in her brain. This caused her to laugh! > I > think it was repeated, and again, it caused her to laugh! If I remember > correctly, she said that there was suddenly something very funny, but > doesn't > know exactly what (hope I remember well). So, can we deduce from that > that > part of our mental events are caused by the brain, by matter only? For thinking purposes it is always convenient to think of systems in isolation, as though they operate in a vacuum. But in reality I don't think there is anything that isn't interconnected with everything else. There are no closed systems. I think you are being a bit careful in your last sentence. Are there any mental events that would happen without a brain? Of course, we > have > the feeling that we walk due to our desire to walk. So, we have the > feeling that > our mind, our volition has effect on our physical body. However, if it > were > true, physical laws would be found to be unsuitable when applied to the > body. > However, it is not so. > The physics and the chemistry of the brain is not different from other > chemical > reactions, and thereis visible effect of mind - which should be, if our > feeling > would be true. So, doesn't this show that the feeling that we have some > level of > volition\free will\cetana is only an illusion? The illusion lies in the "we", not in the volition. When paying attention to mind processes, there can be awareness of volition prior to actions. Of course there is no little you in your head that's doing the willing. The willing arises, followed by the action. If there is awareness of what is happening, then the habitual volition/action cycle can be shortcircuited. In that case volition does not have to result in action. Hope there's some food for thought in that :-) Kind Regards Herman 59678 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 4:05am Subject: Re: Dinner with Rob robmoult Hi Phil / Steve, Page 164. Thanks, Rob :-) PS: Sorry for being curt, I am really busy at the moment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > > I'm not aware of Ledi Sayadaw's understanding of visible object, > so I > > cant really comment on that. > > I can't either. And I don't remember the page number in CMA on > which Rob pointed out Bhidkkhu Bodhi's reference to Ledi Sayadaw. > And not having time these days to track it down. But perhaps if > other's want to. (Rob, if you see this, could you post the page > number? Thanks.) > > >My understanding is that the rupa that > > is visible object is one of the 8 inseparable rupas; the four > Great > > Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and rupa > > (visible object), odour, flavour and nutrition. > > This is my understanding too - not direct, of course! > > > While sometimes > > visible object is referred to as different shapes, as in the > > Dhammasangani, the commentaries explain that in reality such > shapes > > are not directly a visible object, which I interpret to mean they > are > > conceptual/pannatti. The commentaries seem to gloss the rupa that > is > > visible object as vanna or colour. I would agree with Rob, that in > > some suttas visible object may sometimes be referring to a > concept, > > but in terms of differentiating between pannatti and paramattha > these > > couple of quotes from Khun Sujin seem relevant. > > Thanks for the above, and the quotes to follow. I have read and > reread "Realities and Concepts" several times so those grapes are > very familiar to me! :) I will continue along this line of > understanding, I think. But who knows? > > Phil > 59679 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. egberdina Hi Tep, 2. Billion of dollars have been spent for "better pharmacological > treatments for obesity and drug addiction". Isn't that a wasteful > spending of money? Shouldn't these patients be educated in the > Abhidhamma so they gain "understanding" that will solve their problems > with obesity and drug addiction? That's like saying that heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers for their next hit, should develop more hiri and otappa :-) Kind Regards Herman 59680 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Joop, Yep, I would agree, I remember seeing it several ways in the sutras, both in parts and in full. Therefore, I say, thus yielding several interpretations. My point is that the situation determines the Right or Wrong interpretation. The important thing is the goal or end result of ..., i.e., how can it be used to guide one to an end of suffering as well as to understanding the nature and cause of suffering (even just an instance of suffering, as well as a lifetime of). Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joop Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:32 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination Hallo Charles, Han, Nina Let me repeat parts of a message of some weeks ago about the two different ways of using the D.O-principles (within three life-times, within one life-time) An essay that gives good information the different aspects, is: Dependent Origination; The Buddhist Law of Conditionality by P. A. Payutto.. Translated from the Thai by Bruce Evans ... ... (Source: http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002- dependent5.htm) A quote from it: "The description of Dependent Origination given in the previous chapter is that most often found in the scriptures and commentaries. It seeks to explain Dependent Origination in terms of the Samsaravatta, the round of rebirth, showing the connections between three lifetimes -- the past, the present and the future. Those who do not agree with this interpretation, or who would prefer something more immediate, can find alternatives not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, where the principle of Dependent Origination is shown occurring in its entirety in one mind moment, but can also interpret the very same words of the Buddha used to support the standard model in a different light, giving a very different picture of the principle of Dependent Origination, one which is supported by teachings and scriptural References from other sources. The arguments used to support such an interpretation are many. .." I'm not sure the three lifetime model is only based on commentaries (especially Buddhaghosa) but I'm sure the Buddha used the term D.O. also to the one lifetime situation Bhikkhu Buddhadasa wasone of the persons who rejected the three lifetimes-model, perhaps he exaggerated. Perhaps there are even three ways of using the D.O.- principles: "within one moment" is then the third one. <....> 59681 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Han, ... These where the very same concerns that drove me to look deeper too. In the end I did find lots of flexibility. Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of han tun Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:18 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination Dear Charles, I am sorry for the abbreviation. Vism XVII, 291-297 stands for Visuddhimagga, chapter XVII, paragraphs 291 to 297. "How well is this new insight working for me?" I am asking this question not just for me. If D.O. is one-way traffic, and if an uninstructed person believes that five causes of present life will bear fruits only in future life, and that it will not bear fruits in this very life, it may be very dangerous for him. He may then commit unwholesome deeds if he believes that he will not have to bear the results of his unwholesome deeds in this very life. Besides, if D.O. is one-way traffic, how will one explain "ditthadhammavedaniya kamma" which is an immediately effective kamma which bears fruit in the present life? <...> 59682 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Han, You stated that you cannot find how the last gives rise to the first. The link between these two is also explained in many ways. The one I like the best is, "When we die in Ignorance (from entering the cycle at this point and not breaking the cycle), the ignorance does not die (e.g., rebirth-consciousness), it gives rise to more ignorance and clinging. The basic view has always been we die clinging to existence thus giving rise to a birth -- based on the 1 and 3 life-time models). Death is not a permanent ceasing to exist or to the causing of existence. The early Indians saw it as a stage to a "new," not empty, beginning -- this idea could be used in moment to moment and the life-time models. Reminded me later, I think I could explain this a lot better later. Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- Dear Han, > I know that the purpose of the D.O. is to show us that > we are in sa.msaara and how to be liberated from it. > > I also know that we should not see D.O. as a schedule > giving us what comes first, what comes next, as a > fixed order. > I have also checked with Majjhima Nikaya (M.i,261). It > is MN 38 Mahaatanhaasankhaya Sutta. > > However, in all these literature, I cannot find how > jaraa-marana "directly conditions the arising of > avijjaa (i.e., how anga number 12 directly conditions > the arising of anga number 1). If D.O. is a big > circle, however much it is taught in different ways, > there must be a direct linkage between the last anga > and the first anga to form a circle. <...> 59683 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination dacostacharles Hi Matheesha, Look into the mind and watch the moment to moment arising (birth), losing interest (decay/sickness), and death of thoughts/emotions. Examine the events surrounding this process. Got to go, will exp mr latr -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 19:02 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination Hi Charles, > Sorry, I could not help butting in, DO is my main meditation. Just curious, how do you do this meditation? regards Matheesha 59684 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Scott (and KenH), On 23/05/06, Scott Duncan wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > Ah, now there is something to hone in on, my good man. Excellent! > > H: "Well, that's the million dollar question. Because if theory is > neatly encapsulated in the tipitaka and its commentaries and > sub-commentaries, then Houston has a problem. Because there is no > unity of view in that opus if taken as a whole." > > May I suggest, Herman, that the unity of view or lack thereof likely > exists within those who try to comprehend the contents of the Three > Baskets and not within the Dhamma itself. I am glad to read you do not conflate the Dhamma with the Tipitaka. Many do, though. Of course, the cynical view > would be to begin to question the veracity of the sources for Dhamma > we have inherited all these centuries later. My small point is to > suggest that "theory" inheres, that's all. Yes, agreed. But an interesting aside is the strong need felt by some to have the Abhidhamma as the Buddha's literal words. This goes back to the need for authority and lineage, and suggests to me that the value of the book would be based on who the author is, not because of what it says. As for me, for all I care, the suttas were recited by Donald Duck to Goofy. It's their content that matters. I will not challenge your small point, as long as it stays small :-) A whole discussion could evolve in which you show me this lack of > unity of view that you mention. Is this a possibility? One could > take a subject and examine it from the sutta and the abhidhamma modes > of analysis. There are different modes of analysis amongst at least > the Suttas and the Abhidhamma, but is this what you are referring to? There are scholars who are satisfied that Abhidhamma and beyond has ideas in it that are not mirrored in the suttas. Of course there are also scholars that disagree. Their discussions and disagreement follow, perhaps, from their academic interest in this sort of stuff. My interest in this material is not academic, so I wouldn't get involved. H: "Houston has a major problem with the dichotomy between the middle > way of the dependent arising of all conditioned phenomena (neither > self-existing nor not self-existing) of the Suttas, and the essential > reality and desirability of knowing paramattha dhammas in the > commentaries. From the scientific approach of the Suttas, we go to > positivism in the commentaries, which is just so speculative and quite > sad, really." > > Who is Houston when he's at home? Okay, you've said a mouthful here > and I need some help before I really try to comment. You never heard the line from an Apollo mission to Mission Control; "Houston, we have a problem" ? :-) 1. Can you explain the first dichotomy you postulate above? If I get > it you see pitted against one another something you call "the middle > way of the dependent arising of all conditioned phenomena (neither > self-existing nor not self-existing)" and "the essential reality and > desirability of knowing paramattha dhammas in the commentaries." I have never read the Abhidhamma or its commentaries. But what I gather from third party sources is that it puts forward a category of irreducible phenomena with essential characteristics that come to individually exist absolutely for a definite period, and that insight knowledge of these irreducible ultimates leads to enlightenment. Needless to say, such a notion is not to be found in the suttas. 2. Can you explain the second dichotomy you postulate above? You see > pitted against one another something you call "the scientific approach > of the Suttas" and "positivism in the commentaries...[editorial omitted]." It is my reading of the Suttas that the Buddha empirically discovered the principles based on which he could say that anything that can be experienced is a mental product, but lending itself to the illusion of self-existence, permanence, or desirability. The paramattha dhammas, on the other hand, really do exist. Ask Ken H :-) I'll comment on these two briefly, but really must wait until your > upcoming kind clarifications. > > 1. Don't you realise that there are two separate modes and levels of > inquiry here? These are not, in my opinion, mutually exclusive. Anything that posits real, though momentary existence, is irreconcilably at odds with the middle way of neither existing or not-existing. 2. I don't know what the difference is between the "scientific > approach" and "positivism," which is why I need your clarifications. > Are they not, relatively speaking, synonymous? No. How, for instance, does one arrive at the notion that any instance of anything was irreducible? Taking an illusion to establish the reality of another illusion is poor practice. The whole positivist enterprise is to establish the reality of the present moment, while everything the Buddha said to those inclined to hear it was to uproot the very mind that creates the illusion of existence. If you ever find a present moment, please mail me it's co-ordinates. At any rate, my good man, I await your reply. Good on ya, Scott, and I hope I didn't disappoint :-) Kind Regards Herman 59685 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:25am Subject: Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. Thinking Differently ! indriyabala Hi Nina, I think when good people think differently, it is unavoidable that they discuss, debate, or argue about their differences for the sake of improving knowledge. Until it proves to be useless to continue to 'bark up the wrong tree', then people will stop communicating! >T: The sutta says that you apply "the mind" (through > yoniso-manasikara) to the eye and see the dangers associated with > having delight in what is being seen. ------ N: I see it differently. When, after seeing, kusala cittas arise there is wise attention to the object, yoniso manasikaara, and when akusala cittas arise, there is unwise attention, ayoniso manasikaara. -------- Tep: But when there is no "application" of the mind with seeing of "dangers", there is no wise attention. ................ >T: The result of such contemplation > is nibbida, the destruction of delight(nandi). ------- N: This is a stage of insight. It arises through paññaa, right understanding of the object that appears. --------- Tep: Yes. But only through the application of mind that sees a danger. ............... >T: But, you think sati > arises to be aware of what is appearing through the "eye-door", and > sati develops itself!! ------- N: Sati, paññaa and the other Path factors develop together when the right conditions are present. ----------- Tep: Are they automata? ................ >T:What you think is the familiar interpretation of the Paramattha->dhamma taught by Khun Sujin. --------- N: Not by Kh. Sujin, but according to the Tipitaka, and commentaries. Did you read her Survey of Paramattha Dhammas? Can I be of any help here? I wonder where you see any discrepancy. ---------- Tep: Read the above dialogue again, you should see enough "discrepancy". But if you don't, then read Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on Samma Sati. Of course you "think differently". Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > op 20-05-2006 23:29 schreef indriyabala op indriyabala@...: > (snipped) > T: please read Bhikkhu Bodhi's writing on > > sati development below : his is clearly based on the idea in the suttas. > <.....The whole process is a way of coming back into the present, > > of standing in the here and now without slipping away, without getting > > swept away by the tides of distracting thoughts."> > -------- > N: Also distraction is a reality and has to be known. > I admire Ven. Bodhi as a translator, but when he speaks as a meditation > master I think differently. > ------- > T, from the other post: > Tep: A drug that suppresses tanha-induced brain activities also stops > the longings. Does that mean the drug can control the citta and > cetasikas through the citta's produced ruupa? > -------- > N: I was not quite clear. All over the body there are ruupas produced by > kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition, and this goes also for the ruupas > we call brain. But these ruupas fall away immediately. Also drugs are > ruupas. They are a kind of nutrition and can produce ruupa. But the medical > field sees things from a difficult angle and it is confusing to mix science > and dhamma. > --------- > --------- > >N: The listeners have to be openminded to the Abhidhamma to begin > with. One cannot just educate people in the Abhidhamma ;--)) > -------- > Tep: Then can you educate people to be open-minded first? > ---------- > N: I cannot, it depends on their accumulations. I do not wish to intrude any > view upon you or others. When people are interested I rejoice in their > interest and like to be of help if I can. I am disinclined to debates and > argumentations. > > Nina. > 59686 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala Hi Herman, You gave an interesting remark. >H: > > That's like saying that heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers for their next hit, should develop more hiri and otappa :-) > They don't know hiri-ottappa that's why they become addicts. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > 2. Billion of dollars have been spent for "better pharmacological > > treatments for obesity and drug addiction". Isn't that a wasteful > > spending of money? Shouldn't these patients be educated in the > > Abhidhamma so they gain "understanding" that will solve their problems > > with obesity and drug addiction? > > 59687 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Herman) - In a message dated 5/23/06 9:41:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > That's like saying that heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers > for their next hit, should develop more hiri and otappa :-) > > > > They don't know hiri-ottappa that's why they become addicts. > ===================== Are you so sure that, as implied, all those who do not become addicts have stronger consciences and characters? Most non-Buddhists and non-Muslims will have an occasional drink, including deeply religious good people. Do those who become alcoholics, some of whom are the most gentle of "souls", do so because they "don't know hiri-ottappa"? Some folks have clinical depression requiring mood-normalizing medications. Did they become depressives [BTW, some psychologists interpret depression as a self-applied anger/aversion] because of lacking conscience or good sense or a straight moral compass, or is it a physical malady that besets them? Kammic fruition is another matter. Much of what comes to us is a matter of kammic fruition. But we all have incurred huge stockpiles of kammic promissory notes, some of which pay off nicely, and many of which involve heavy penalties and paybacks, and what comes to the fore in a given lifetime or at a given moment is beyond our ability to trace. One cannot judge a person by the quality of his/her life. Kamma is too varied and complex for that! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59688 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? matheesha333 Hi Tep, >Tep: Long time no discussion. {:<) M: Yes, indeed. I have been too busy to. Stealing moments even to answer this. > > M: Now,now Tep. Who are you going to test with your devious plan? >Tep: You and me! It is a long-term plan, friend. While the opportunity has > not yet arisen, it is nice to know how (for the sake of knowledge). > Why do astronomers keep on looking beyond our solar system? M: Mmm..perhaps because they crave for it! It was interesting to note in that sutta that jhana was mentioned, suggesting the need for it in reaching arahathood. While I can understand that 'lets do the least we need to do for now' approach, it does not bode well for chances of progressing on the path. The future looks bleak. Where is the attitude of practicing like ones head is on fire? How much of right view is there if there is no sense of the danger which spurs one on? with metta Matheesha 59689 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 8:52am Subject: Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "indriyabala" wrote: > > > Hi James and Nina - > > Thank you James for the article that you claim to "support the > Buddha's teaching". James: Yes, I thought that the article demonstrated the truth that all craving arises from the same source. No matter what the craving is directed toward, it is all the same craving. Essentially, this is what the article states : > > " Whatever the craving, the same parts of your brain are responsible > for the feelings, new research shows. When people crave food, the > study found, the same portions of the brain are active as during other > strong longings. > > "Identifying the brain regions involved can tell us a great deal about > the normal and pathological neurochemistry of craving," Pelchat said, > "and in turn, lead us to better pharmacological treatments for obesity > and drug addiction." > ................ > > Tep: I have a few questions for you and Nina with respect to the > relationship between brain and the citta (or the mind). > > 1. Why do longings affect the brain if tanha is associated with citta? James: Citta manifests in the brain. The brain is the physical manifestation of the mind (which is non-physical). The brain must be manifest in this gross physical realm. > 2. Billion of dollars have been spent for "better pharmacological > treatments for obesity and drug addiction". Isn't that a wasteful > spending of money? James: Not really. Better than spending the money on wars. Shouldn't these patients be educated in the > Abhidhamma so they gain "understanding" that will solve their problems > with obesity and drug addiction? James: I don't really believe that education of the Abhidhamma will solve anything. The only way to eliminate craving is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, as the Buddha taught. How the Abhidhamma fits into that scheme, I'm still not sure. > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ==== Metta, James 59690 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 0:12pm Subject: Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala Hi Howard (Herman, James), To address your concern we need to step back to the origin. > > > Tep(#59597): > > > Billion of dollars have been spent for "better pharmacological > > > treatments for obesity and drug addiction". Isn't that a > > wasteful spending of money? Shouldn't these patients be educated > > > in the Abhidhamma so they gain "understanding" that will solve > > > their problems with obesity and drug addiction? > >Herman: > >That's like saying that heroin addicts, who would sell their > >mothers for their next hit, should develop more hiri and otappa :-) > > >Tep: > They don't know hiri-ottappa that's why they become addicts. > ===================== Then you wrote (#59687), Howard: Are you so sure that, as implied, all those who do not become addicts have stronger consciences and characters? Most non-Buddhists and non-Muslims will have an occasional drink, including deeply religious good people. Do those who become alcoholics, some of whom are the most gentle of "souls", do so because they "don't know hiri-ottappa"? Some folks have clinical depression requiring mood-normalizing medications. Did they become depressives [BTW, some psychologists interpret depression as a self-applied anger/aversion] because of lacking conscience or good sense or a straight moral compass, or is it a physical malady that besets them? Kammic fruition is another matter. Much of what comes to us is a matter of kammic fruition. But we all have incurred huge stockpiles of kammic promissory notes, some of which pay off nicely, and many of which involve heavy penalties and paybacks, and what comes to the fore in a given lifetime or at a given moment is beyond our ability to trace. One cannot judge a person by the quality of his/her life. Kamma is too varied and complex for that! ................ Tep: No question why books can be written by some authors from only a few sentences of historical events. The scope of Herman's question is limited only to illegal and despicable "heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers for their next hit" ! Now it seems you have expanded the limited scope to alcohol addicts, drunkards (legally correct and highly accepted in the Western world), occasional drinkers, and mentally depressed drug-users who are non-Buddhists or non-Muslims!! I am afraid that my one-sentence comment is not applicable to those extensions, dear Howard. Kammic fruition is another matter, indeed. And I have no plan to write a book about Kammic fruition from my single sentence above. {:-|>> Best wishes and peace for all (drunken or not), Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 5/23/06 9:41:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > That's like saying that heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers > > for their next hit, should develop more hiri and otappa :-) > > > > > > > They don't know hiri-ottappa that's why they become addicts. > > > ===================== 59691 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 1:22pm Subject: Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala Hi James, Thank you for giving your direct easy-to-understand answers to the two quiz questions. >James: > (1) Citta manifests in the brain. The brain is the physical manifestation of the mind (which is non-physical). The brain must be manifest in this gross physical realm. Tep: That's why people with defective brains fail to perform many normal mental functions. We also know that past perceptions (memories) are stored in the brain. >James: >(2) I don't really believe that education of the Abhidhamma will solve anything. The only way to eliminate craving is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, as the Buddha taught. How the Abhidhamma fits into that scheme, I'm still not sure. Tep: Thank you for emphasizing the importance of the NEP and I agree with it. However, I can see the utility of higher dhamma as giving us deep insight into the meanings of NEP as follows" (Psm = Patisambhidamagga) Psm. I, 10. The meaning of penetration as the 'full understanding of suffering' is to be directly known. The meaning of penetration as the 'full understanding of the abandoning of dukkha' ..., the meaning of penetration as the 'realizing of the cessation of suffering' ..., the meaning of penetration as the 'developing of the way leading to the cessation of suffering' is to be directly known. Psm. I, 26. Seeing (dassana) as the meaning of right view (sammaa-ditthi) is to be directly known. Directing onto (abhiniropana) as the meaning of right thought (sammaa-sankappa)... Embracing (pariggaha) as the meaning of right speaking (sammaa-vaacaa) ... Origination (samutthaana) as the meaning of right acting (sammaa-kammanta)... Cleansing (vodaana) as the meaning of right living(sammaa-aajiva) ... Exertion (paggaha) as the meaning of right effort (sammaa-vaayama)... Establishing (upatthaana) as the meaning of right mindfulness (sammaa-sati) ... Non-distraction (avikkhepa) as the meaning of right concentration (sammaa-samaadhi) .. Psm. I, 41. Through its meaning of seeing, right view is to be directly known. Through its meaning of directing onto, right thought .. Through its meaning of embracing, right speaking ... Through its meaning of originating, right acting ... Through its meaning of cleansing, right living .. Through its meaning of exertion, right effort ... Through its meaning of establishing(founding), right mindfulness ... Through its meaning of non-distraction, right concentration is to be directly known. [See much more in the 'Path of Discrimination', a PTS publication. Or look up my several presentations at the SariputtaDhamma Website: SariputtaDhamma@yahoogroups.com] Warm regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Nina), > (snipped) 59692 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 23, 2006 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/23/06 3:20:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > The scope of Herman's question is limited only to illegal and > despicable "heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers for their > next hit" ! Now it seems you have expanded the limited scope to > alcohol addicts, drunkards (legally correct and highly accepted in the > Western world), occasional drinkers, and mentally depressed drug-users > who are non-Buddhists or non-Muslims!! I am afraid that my > one-sentence comment is not applicable to those extensions, dear Howard. --------------------------------------- Howard: Ok, sorry. But as to the heroin addicts, once one is in that boat, it is almost a ceratinty that one will act deperately and will engage in all sorts of immoral acts. One truly becomes a slave. That is more the rule than the exception. -------------------------------------- > > Kammic fruition is another matter, indeed. And I have no plan to write > a book about Kammic fruition from my single sentence above. {:-|>> > > Best wishes and peace for all (drunken or not), > > ======================== With metta. Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59693 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:01pm Subject: Re: Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, As far as I understand the Burmese Theravada stance is that cula- sotapanna is only free of woeful existence in the very next life. However, the common phrasing in commentaries is as you've read, assured destiny 'niyatagatika'. My teacher says if there's no possibility then usage is "woeful existence doors are forever closed" like description for sotapanna. I told him I see no difference at all without additional qualifications like if this insight is maintained or for the next life. So he's looking at the texts to see where they disambiguate it. I'm sure it's there somewhere or else it's not very consistent. It maybe description of a typical case and not worst case but that could just be a copout answer. >S: I would be interested in seeing any references Dr Mehm Tin Mon K: I don't know what references he uses but given the edition number if he's wrong, he's probably been corrected by a Tipitaka Sayadaw in Burma. > S: accounts of births in hell realms in the Jatakas,so even by Dr Mehm's > logic, it would follow that the bodhisatta had not attained this degree of > insight (2nd stage of insight)in lives before the ones immediately > preceding the ones followed by rebirth in hell-planes. K: Doesn't it go back to our basic difference here? You see even these lower insights as permanent and I say they don't have extra powers compared to other maha-kusalas. So if one can lose the insights then your logic doesn't follow unless you can point to the Jatakas where Bodhisatta falls straight to a woeful realm immediately after a life where he ordained. I doubt there's such a specific story. So really our discussion has one main point of contention: How stable are the insights. (I feel like Tep) My basic point is all mundane cannot be since they are not lokuttara. > S: Yes, I'd forgotten this. I apologise - it was all sometime ago. The > contention as you say was that it was sankharupekkha-nana that was being > referred to rather than anuloma citta in the magga vithi. Even so, at this > great stage of insight,there is already a turning away from conditioned > dhammas and this insight conditions the turning away from the state of > being a worldling, leading to emergence (vu.t.thaana gamini pa~n~naa). Kel: I'm sure you remember the crow simile for sankharupekkha-nana so there's no guarantee of emergence. > S: We read accounts of bhikkhus and bhikkhunis who had memorised the entire > teachings and taught them under previous Buddhas, but not attained any > insight at all. Kel: Again, not clear any insights or just no enlightenment. They could be blocked by previous aspirations according to standard theory as I understand it. - Kel 59694 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:20pm Subject: Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... indriyabala Hi Matheesha (and Han), Being a simple-minded meditator who is not floating in the air due to indigestion that is caused by the "misguided higher dhamma", is indeed a great advantage. >T: Why do astronomers keep on looking beyond our solar system? >M: Mmm..perhaps because they crave for it! Tep: Having a right view on wholesome & unwholesome (see MN 9) that sets the first right step toward the path to Nibbana is, fortunately, not laden with cravings. ................ >M: It was interesting to note in that sutta that jhana was mentioned, suggesting the need for it in reaching arahathood. Tep: I am glad you have studied "that sutta" in the quiz. Yes indeed, jhana IS a critical component of the Teachings that aim at Nibbana. It is well (solidly) supported by other major suttas, one of which is MN 39. "... ...Further, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of joy and sorrow -- he enters and remains in the fourth Jhana which is beyond pleasure and pain; and purified by equanimity and mindfulness... With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the bhikkhu directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the taints." Tep: We should carefully note about the above sutta that although the citta (mind) is a conditioned dhamma, the bhikkhu can "direct and incline" (control)it to attain serenity & insight knowledges (at will). .............. >M: > While I can understand that 'lets do the least we need to do for now' approach, it does not bode well for chances of progressing on the path. Tep: Right. Indriya, bala and iddhipada among other dhammas are necessary for making real(experiential) progress on the path. {"Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight." MN 149} .................... >M: >The future looks bleak. Where is the attitude of practicing like ones head is on fire? How much of right view is there if there is no sense of the danger which spurs one on? Tep: Precisely ! Han is very good at explaining the critically-important role of the "sense of danger" in conditioning insight knowledges. Can you do it again for me and Matheesha, Han? Warm regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > >Tep: Long time no discussion. {:<) > > M: Yes, indeed. I have been too busy to. Stealing moments even to > answer this. > 59695 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. egberdina Hi Tep, On 23/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > > You gave an interesting remark. > > >H: > > > > That's like saying that heroin addicts, who would sell their mothers > for their next hit, should develop more hiri and otappa :-) > > > > They don't know hiri-ottappa that's why they become addicts. Oh Tep, that's all a little bit black and white for me. I'll say something black and white too, just to balance your statement. Is the craving for heroin different in kind to the craving for existence? Kind Regards Herman 59696 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Tep, On 23/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > >>Tep: That sound pretty interesting. But I am not sure I understand > >>"everlasting existence" (it sounds like a heaven of Hinduism or > >>Christianity). > > The (intended) question is "What do you mean by everlasting existence?". Just that, existence without end. I don't know anything about Hindu heavens, but is the Christian everlasting future much different from the Buddhist everlasting past and future? > > Are you denying that true Buddhist motivation in making merit is for > forever lasting happiness, or you don't like the God or the heaven > bit? If so, leave God out, and we'll discuss speculated heavens later > on. Is making merit not infused with the thought, "I will be"?. And do > true Buddhists have that thought? > > Tep: Yes, I am denying that true Buddhists make merit simply for > "lasting happiness", because their goal is Nibbana (or at least > Sotapanna). The thought 'I will be', if any, is certainly destined to > be eradicated by the path knowledge. I imagine from what little I have seen of Buddhists that many of them consider Nibbana as an everlasting heaven. But I'll take your word for it that true Buddhists don't think that. Kind Regards Herman 59697 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas, understanding realities/'realities' egberdina Hi Kel, On 21/05/06, kelvin_lwin wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > Recently Howard and I discussed binaural beats (two slightly > different > > sounds in each ear creating a third, mind-made, sound). Are you > saying that > > the two different sounds are not heard at the same time, one from > each ear? > > Kel: I don't think they have to be heard at the same time to produce > a 3rd one. As the identification happens over several processes and > the source is duplicated. No reason two sources can't be superimposed > before it is recognized. Hearing and listening are two different things, though, aren't they? It seems very strange to have two ears and two eyes, but that each one can only operate individually, in succession. Just out of interest, do you think of the brain/mind as a serial device, or massively parallel beyond anything understandable? And is either model mandated for enlightenment? Kind Regards Herman 59698 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Tep) - > >In a message dated 5/14/06 7:27:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >jonabbott@... writes: > > > >>Thanks for the sutta quote. Yes, intention plays a role in everything. >>But speaking generally, I do not understand it to be the case that >>kusala can be developed by willing to develop it. That is not to say >>that intention is absent from the picture, and so it must have a part to >>play. >> >===================== > Jon, would you be happy with the modification "But speaking generally, >I do not understand it to be the case that kusala can be developed SOLELY by >willing to develop it"? I certainly share THAT understanding! In fact, we can >will all sorts of things to no avail ... if willing is all that occurs! >Thoughts along the lines of "May this be! May that be!" are, on their own, utter >nonsense! My reply to someone who believes that mere willing can prevail is "Get >real!" > Well I'm sure everyone on this list, and I would suspect a substantial proportion of the world at large, would like to have more kusala in their lives. So lack of intention is not the limiting factor ;-)) What about factors such as knowing the different kinds of kusala, appreciating the value of ksuala, being able to distinguish kusala moments as they arise from moments of subtle aksuala, being in an environment where kusala is appreciated by others, a sense of urgency, etc.? Jon 59699 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- mindfulness/sati (o) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >>As I understand the teaching, no dhammas are subject to mastery and, >>thus, cannot be made to arise (or to not arise) at a time of one's >>choosing. Of course, the appearance is the opposite. A person wants a >>certain kind of akusala to arise and lo and behold it does. This is >>because f the sheer weight of accumulation of the akusala. It is the >>same for kusala qualities that have been developed to the extent that >>they are powers (bala), they can arise as if at will. But the nature of >>dhammas is that they are conditioned, and the conditioning factors >>explained in the teachings do not include intention. >> > >Others have already made their misgivings about this last line known. >Perhaps you can clarify? > > I've done my best in recent posts to Howard and Tep ;-)) >This goes back to the learning discussion. Once having spontaneously >experienced that appreciating of the value of kusala, does that end there >, ie wait for the next spontaneous blip of kusala, or is there a possibility >of learning, a coming to know what is for the benefit of others, and an >avoidance of what is not beneficial. > What I had in mind when I mentioned an appreciation of the value of kusala was something that was gradually acquired over a period of time and becomes ingrained, rather than something that manifests as a spontaneous experience/blip. But I do not think that these things can b 'self-discovered', if that is what you are implying. >I would much rather be having this discussion in a park, face to face. >Because then every now and then I could poke you in the ribs :-) > Ah, fond memories indeed! >On your exam paper I would express my delight that you have directly and >honestly pointed out my error, encourage you to proceed beyond the >textbooks, give you 1 out of 5, and an apple that a girl gave to me with >her paper (bribery didn't work for her). > Gee, thanks, teach. Jon 59700 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala HI Herman - I am learning from you and Eric and Scott to say things more concisely -- in black & white ! > >Tep: > > They don't know hiri-ottappa that's why they become addicts. > > H: > Oh Tep, that's all a little bit black and white for me. I'll say something black and white too, just to balance your statement. Is the craving for heroin different in kind to the craving for existence? Tep: There are three kinds of craving: craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. I think craving for drugs is based on sensuality for odors and for flavors. Therefore, it is different from the craving for existence. But you may think that once he is addicted, then his existence depends on the drug. But that's a different issue, I guess. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > 59701 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet ! jonoabb Hi Tep indriyabala wrote: >Hi Jon & Herman (Nina and Han), > >In your dialogue H says this and J says that, but I don't see if >anyone listens! So let me play the role of both sayer & listener. > You're most welcome! >>>J says: Kusala arises due to conditions, but not at a time of one's >>>own choosing. >>> >Tep listens & says: You're wrong Jon. Kusalas like the three good >conducts do arise "at a time of one's own choosing". >Abstaining from killing is kusala here and now ! >Abstaining from taking what is not given is kusala here and now! >Abstaining from sensual misconduct is kusala here and now! >Abandoning false speech, abstaining from false speech is kusala here >and now! >Abstaining from drinking intoxicants (whiskeys and wines included) is >kusala here and now! [see AN X.176] > I think we may have different ideas as to what constitutes an abstaining as spoken of in the precept observances. You seem to be taking it to mean that if there's no breach of a precept right now then there is abstaining. I have a different view. For example, as I write this message there is no actual abstaining from killing, because there is just no question of any killing being done. Likewise there is no abstaining from the other kinds of akusala about which the precepts are concerned. So I don' think we can take the present non-breach of precepts to be an instance of kusala here and now. If the temptation to some form of akusala, say harsh speech for example, arises there is no saying how we will react. That's how I see it. >>>As I understand the teaching, no dhammas are subject to mastery >>>and, thus, cannot be made to arise (or to not arise) at a time of >>>one's choosing. >>> > >Tep listens & says: >You ain't seen nothing yet. Read my comment above and AN X.176. > >One more example to convince you; note carefully the words "whenever I >want": > > "If a monk would wish, 'May I attain — whenever I want, without >strain, without difficulty — the four jhanas that are heightened >mental states, pleasant abidings in the here-&-now,' then he should be >one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental >calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who >frequents empty dwellings. [AN X.71 Akankha Sutta :Wishes] > I think what is being referred to here is the mastery of jhana (vasii). However, mastery of jhanas has its limits; it can be lost within that lifetime. So it is relative mastery, not total mastery. Jon 59702 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 23, 2006 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila, samadhi, panna ... Satipatthana from three good conducts jonoabb Hi Tep As usual, your post is packed with information, sutta quotes and comments on various aspects of the topic under discussion. I hope you don't mind if I am selective in what I reply to (please feel free to come back on anything I omit to respond to) indriyabala wrote: >Hi, Jon (& Charles D., Herman, Sarah, Sukinder, Han and all)- > >Our discussion has been productive as usual. > I agree with that! >Tep: I believe so too, Jon. That's one reason why the Sotapanna is >known as one who has perfect Sila and the Anagami as one who has >purified consciousness (perfect jhanas). And the Seven Chariot (the >discourse of the arahant Punna Mantaniputta talking to the Chief >Disciple Sariputta) also clearly affirms that fact. But (pardon me, if >you feel my remark is negative) unfortunately, some commentaries >contradict to this fact. But should we believe in the arahant's words >or the words of those "ancient commentators"? > OK, we agree that sila is perfected by the sotapanna and samatha by the anagami. Good! I am not aware of any commentaries that contradict this fact. Please feel free to bring them up for discussion. (I don't consider it negative to discuss whether a particular passage from the texts is in accordance with other parts of the texts) >Tep: Thanks for the clarification, Jon. I believe it is the stage of >Stream-entry when "sila becomes sufficiently established" (i.e. when >the purification of sila is fulfilled; see the discussion above) so >that real progress toward anagami-magga (of purified consciousness) >can begin. However, sila of the arahant is of course higher than that >of a Sotapanna, according to the Vism. So it seems that all things are >relative, like Charles DaCosta has said. > I agree with your statement that follows this (below), but I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. I thought we agreed earlier that sila was perfected at stream-entry. So when you say that sila becomes 'sufficiently established' at stream entry, you mean sufficiently established for what? >Of course, anyone can start to develop samadhi and paññaa any time, >but I don't think you can fulfil purification of consciousness >(becoming Anagami) before your virtues have been purified (becoming >Sotapanna) first. > Yes, I agree that the development of samadhi and panna can begin at any time, for anyone. And I also think it's clear that sotapatti-magga must precede anagami-magga. Jon 59703 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... indriyabala Hi Herman, Sometimes a seemingly involved discussion/debate surprisingly end so quickly. >H: > I imagine from what little I have seen of Buddhists that many of >them consider Nibbana as an everlasting heaven. But I'll take your >word for it that true Buddhists don't think that. > Indeed my definition of "true Buddhists" does NOT include those who think of Nibbana as "everlasting heaven". One hundred thanks to you for taking "my word" for it. {:-|>> With appreciation, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > On 23/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > > Hi Herman, > > > > >>Tep: That sound pretty interesting. But I am not sure I understand > > >>"everlasting existence" (it sounds like a heaven of Hinduism or > > >>Christianity). > > > > The (intended) question is "What do you mean by everlasting existence?". > > > Just that, existence without end. I don't know anything about Hindu heavens, > but is the Christian everlasting future much different from the Buddhist > everlasting past and future? > > > > > Are you denying that true Buddhist motivation in making merit is for > > forever lasting happiness, or you don't like the God or the heaven > > bit? If so, leave God out, and we'll discuss speculated heavens later > > on. Is making merit not infused with the thought, "I will be"?. And do > > true Buddhists have that thought? > > > > Tep: Yes, I am denying that true Buddhists make merit simply for > > "lasting happiness", because their goal is Nibbana (or at least > > Sotapanna). The thought 'I will be', if any, is certainly destined to > > be eradicated by the path knowledge. > > 59704 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:41pm Subject: Re: Herman [dsg] Re: Please don't run away yet, DAN 1.ii egberdina Hi Sukin, > > Herman: > > Well, I disagree. And I think that the various reasonings that some > > Buddhists have about anyone that shows any understanding of > reality "must > > have heard the Dhamma in a previous life" are immature and tribal. > > Ss: Well, you are probably taking such statements in isolation. You > surely must have heard us talk extensively about the endless cycle of > birth and death, about accumulated kamma, about accumulated views, > accumulated talents and inclinations. All this points to the same > principle > of citta accumulating from moment to moment whatever the > experience, and the understanding that at anytime any set of conditions > could trigger any of these accumulated tendencies by way of natural > decisive support condition, to arise. Yes, I have read those discussions. It always amuses me how some people have no reluctance in pointing to a past they speculate into existence as the source of their present behaviour. > It is with this same kind of understanding that the above statement is > sometimes made. I would replace understanding with ignorance. For people who live in the past or in the future, the Buddha will bring them to the present moment. And for those in the present moment, they can proceed to the timeless. > I wonder what you use to judge this as being `immature and tribal'. The > latter is an expression of strong self view, are you saying that the above > stems from this kind of identifying? Exactly. ==================== > > > Ss: The reference to "Ariyan" Truth is about "Truth *enlightened* to" > and subsequently taught about to everyone else. It is not saying that > only an Ariyan will understand the Teachings. The rest of us will > understand it at the level we are capable of, starting with intellectual > right understanding, and some would even become enlightened > instantly. No, the rest of us will understand it to the point we don't use the unknown past to excuse our wish for the future. In the case of the famous philosophers such as, Bee Gees, Jim Morrison > and Plato, what they teach is from unenlightened experiences, and so > those who follow them will only go further down into the realm of > wrong view. > =========================== Don't you dare talk about the BeeGees like that :-) > > > > Herman: > > I don't think I need to point to the enormous diversity of views that > come > > under the "Buddhist" umbrella. I am not trying to divide and conquer. > But > > assumptions of unity of Buddhist view are ill-founded. Right > Understanding > > can only be considered to have been in place when the goal is > reached. > > Ss: And I don't think that I need to tell you that I'd be happy to not be > associated with those other Buddhists. ;-) And now I have narrowed > down your target, but does that make it easier for you or harder? ;-) > > To reach any goal one must start the journey at some point. And > obviously not everyone will reach their projected goal, only those who > are facing the right direction. And it is a reference to this that "right > understanding" is often used by some of us. It is "right" by virtue of > being the right beginning steps. Rightness in your context can only be determined on succesful completion of the journey. So it helps to know what the destination is. But of course there is no path in time to the timeless. > > Talking then about `twinkle of experiential understanding', I find myself > for example, agreeing with almost everything Sarah, Jon, Nina, Rob K, > Ken H and Phil amongst others say, whereas very little with the rest of > the others, `you know who all'. > > And besides, I used to have the same feeling of agreement when > reading for example the Tao Teh Ching, but not anymore. So really, we > can't be so sure can we? > =========================== You can be sure of a few things. Like jhanas. You don't have to think or say anything about them, in fact, if you do you've missed the boat, again. > > Herman: > > The greatest tribute you can pay to the Buddha is to realise what he > says. > > But if you say to him, before I can realise what you are saying I have > to > > study the Abhidhamma and what Buddhagosa has to say about it, you > are not > > paying him much of a compliment. More like an insult, if he was > sensitive > > :-) > > Ss: He would know exactly how best to express his understandings to > me. And who knows, this might even turn out to be quite like the way it > is in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. :-) And if he said, in order for you to reach the goal, you are going to have to learn to shut up your mind, and remove yourself from the sensuous world, would you listen? I think the reliance on these is admitting to one's inability to gain a > similar understanding from reading the Suttas without guidance and > help. It is in fact admitting at the same time, that one's level of > understanding is way, way below those who were the Buddha's direct > audience and to the fact that the Dhamma the Buddha enlightened to, is > deep and very hard to comprehend. Accumulations again, eh? > The best help of course would have been the Buddha himself expressing > words most suited to us. I doubt it strongly. I think the Buddha has said what he said a thousand times in different ways. Many have been addressed. Few select themselves. Accumulations again, no doubt. > > Ss: The Buddha's own presence has a great but different effect on > one's Saddha. I doubt though that he would have attempted to inspire > by giving figures. ;-) > > Even if I were to meet 500 arahattas who I *truly* believed to have > been enlightened, in the end it would still be any steps that I would have > taken. These steps are taken ultimately by panna as leader of other > dhammas. And with every step taken, Saddha also deepens. A sure sign of saddha in the Buddha, Sangha and Dhamma is delight, joy, pleasantness,concentration. Failing that, accumulations. > > > If you are inclined to reply to this with the standard line about > > accumulations, please don't harm yourself and just refrain from doing > so. > > Ss: Why? `Accumulation' is too vague and abstract? In the end it boils > down to causes and conditions. No, because accumulations is speculation about the past, but the words of the Buddha are right here right now, and undeniably so. It's not the past that obliges you, it is what you do this very moment. Take some responsibility. And if you agree about the anattaness > of dhammas, that one can't make sati arise by will, then why not read > the above sutta as descriptive of where and when such conditions may > arise? Why must you insist on its universal application in terms > of "persons performing particular set of conventional actions" and any > intention associated? Is it because you believe in some great power > in "willing"? Is it because you refuse to accept that the Buddha's > teachings is not limited to this *one* lifetime, for else what use is it? Your craving for pasts and futures can only be undone in the present. Sorry :-) Kind Regards Herman 59705 From: han tun Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination hantun1 Dear Charles, Thank you very much for your explanation. In my message # 59665, I had summarized Nina’s and Larry’s explanations: “as the first javana-cittas of every living being are rooted in lobha or tanhaa, that is the time avijjaa also arises; and whichever links include rebirth-linking consciousness that is where the circle is completed.” The above conclusion is not very much different from your explanation: “When we die in Ignorance, the ignorance does not die, it gives rise to more ignorance and clinging. The basic view has always been we die clinging to existence thus giving rise to a birth.” The only question to your explanation is, “do beings always die in ignorance?” With metta, Han --- Charles DaCosta wrote: "When we die in Ignorance (from entering > the cycle at this point > and not breaking the cycle), the ignorance does not > die (e.g., rebirth-consciousness), it gives rise to > more ignorance and clinging. > > The basic view has always been we die clinging to > existence thus giving rise > to a birth -- based on the 1 and 3 life-time > models). > 59706 From: "indriyabala" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:56pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet ! indriyabala Hi Jon, Thank you for slowly but surely replying to all my posts. {:-|> >Jon: >I think we may have different ideas as to what constitutes an abstaining as spoken of in the precept observances. You seem to be taking it to mean that if there's no breach of a precept right now then there is abstaining. Tep: No, I did not. I said, e.g. ".. abstaining from false speech is kusala here and now"; here, it means restraining from giving a wrong speech. Hence, abstaining that is wholesome is guided by the (mundane) right view about wholesome & unwholesome as stated by the Arahant Sariputta in MN 9. ........................... >Jon: >I have a different view. For example, as I write this message there is no actual abstaining from killing, because there is just no question of any killing being done. Likewise there is no abstaining from the other kinds of akusala about which the precepts are concerned. So I don' think we can take the present non-breach of precepts to be an instance of kusala here and now. Tep: No abstaining (is a do-nothing) when there are no potential for wrong conducts (bodily, verbal, mental) is neither kusala nor akusala. A sleeping person is NOT having perfect sila with respect to speech! A new-born baby who has no lobha, no dosa and no moha in a given instant (yet) is not arahant "here and now". ................... >Jon: >If the temptation to some form of akusala, say harsh speech for example, arises there is no saying how we will react. Tep: Yes. There is a "saying" how. Just review the discourse the Buddha gave to his young son [MN 61]. .................. >>Tep: >>One more example to convince you; note carefully the words >>"whenever I want": > >> "If a monk would wish, 'May I attain — whenever I want, without >>strain, without difficulty — the four jhanas that are heightened >>mental states, pleasant abidings in the here-&-now,' then ... >Jon: >I think what is being referred to here is the mastery of jhana (vasii). However, mastery of jhanas has its limits; it can be lost within that lifetime. So it is relative mastery, not total mastery. Tep: Come on, Jon ! You are avoiding the issue. The issue is that jhanas can be chosen to arise; relative mastery or not IS NOT the issue. {:>[ [My avatar is badly disappointed!] Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > >>>J says: Kusala arises due to conditions, but not at a time of one's > >>>own choosing. > >>> > >Tep listens & says: You're wrong Jon. Kusalas like the three good > >conducts do arise "at a time of one's own choosing". > >Abstaining from killing is kusala here and now ! > >Abstaining from taking what is not given is kusala here and now! > >Abstaining from sensual misconduct is kusala here and now! > >Abandoning false speech, abstaining from false speech is kusala here > >and now! > >Abstaining from drinking intoxicants (whiskeys and wines included) is > >kusala here and now! [see AN X.176] (snipped) 59707 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL Ch.1 Seeing and eye sense and visible object egberdina Hi no-one in particular, On 23/05/06, Phil wrote: > > > Hi all > > from Abhidhamma in Daily Life, ch. 1 > > "Seeing cannot arise when there is no eye sense and when there is no > visible object." > > Of course, this is not limited to abhidhamma. We find it in so many > suttas. (I only know SN 35.) > > It is easy to mistakenly believe that we have control over what we > see. There are conditions at work. There is no self that has control > over what we see. I find this sort of thing very helpful. I know that Phil likes to just jot down what comes to mind, without thinking about it, a sort of Phil's dhamma blog. That's fine. Just some points that others may want to consider. If there is no self or no-self, it is of course superflous to list all the things a self cannot do. Things are helpful only in the context of what is intended to be achieved. A list of all the things a unicorn cannot do is helpful for what? But if you want to see red, I suggest that you paint the walls of your house that colour, and just don't worry about whether it is actually possible to do that. Kind Regards Herman 59708 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 23, 2006 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner =?windows-1252... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/23/06 5:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Well I'm sure everyone on this list, and I would suspect a substantial > proportion of the world at large, would like to have more kusala in > their lives. So lack of intention is not the limiting factor ;-)) > > What about factors such as knowing the different kinds of kusala, > appreciating the value of ksuala, being able to distinguish kusala > moments as they arise from moments of subtle aksuala, being in an > environment where kusala is appreciated by others, a sense of urgency, etc.? > > ========================= Yep, many factors, including, of course, taking the *right* actions, and setting up the *useful* conditions, as, for example, along the lines of "right" and "useful" according to the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59709 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' yet !) egberdina Hi Jon, Tep, all, The following is prompted by what Jon wrote. It is a point of confusion for me, and I would appreciate assistance from anyone. I have a different view. For example, as I write this message there is > no actual abstaining from killing, because there is just no question of > any killing being done. Likewise there is no abstaining from the other > kinds of akusala about which the precepts are concerned. I understand what Jon is saying. Does the same apply to ignorance? Can there be talk of ignorance if there is not the opportunity or possibility of knowing? If there is the opportunity of knowing in every moment, what's accumulations got to do with anything? Kind Regards Herman 59710 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 4:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas, understanding realities/'realities' kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, > Hearing and listening are two different things, though, aren't they? It > seems very strange to have two ears and two eyes, but that each one can > only operate individually, in succession. Kel: I don't know but I don't see a difference between hearing and listening. I was just putting forth a possible explanation. > Just out of interest, do you think of the brain/mind as a serial device, or > massively parallel beyond anything understandable? And is either model > mandated for enlightenment? Kel: I think it's massive sensory but serial processing. Serial seems required for concentration and really understanding the current object. I don't think about what model is required for enlightenment, you're the one who asked. - Kel 59711 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas, understanding realities/'realities' egberdina Hi Kel, On 24/05/06, kelvin_lwin wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > Hearing and listening are two different things, though, aren't > they? It > > seems very strange to have two ears and two eyes, but that each > one can > > only operate individually, in succession. > Kel: I don't know but I don't see a difference between hearing > and listening. I was just putting forth a possible explanation. Sure, that's appreciated. For me, the difference between hearing and listening is a matter of attention. Hearing is sound. Listening is sound attended to. > > Just out of interest, do you think of the brain/mind as a serial > device, or > > massively parallel beyond anything understandable? And is either > model > > mandated for enlightenment? > Kel: I think it's massive sensory but serial processing. Serial > seems required for concentration and really understanding the > current object. I don't think about what model is required for > enlightenment, you're the one who asked. Very good point about concentration being serial. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 59712 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 23, 2006 0:43pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' stu =?WINDO... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Jon, Tep, and all) - In a message dated 5/23/06 7:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Jon, Tep, all, > > The following is prompted by what Jon wrote. It is a point of confusion for > me, and I would appreciate assistance from anyone. > > > > I have a different view. For example, as I write this message there is > >no actual abstaining from killing, because there is just no question of > >any killing being done. Likewise there is no abstaining from the other > >kinds of akusala about which the precepts are concerned. > > > > I understand what Jon is saying. Does the same apply to ignorance? Can there > be talk of ignorance if there is not the opportunity or possibility of > knowing? If there is the opportunity of knowing in every moment, what's > accumulations got to do with anything? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ====================== I don't know, Herman, but it seems to me that you may be comparing apples and oranges. To abstain from something involves exertion of will. Specifically, it involves resisting an action one has a desire for. Ignorance doesn't involve an act of will, though of course, unrelatedly, ignoring does. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59713 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hey Tep, On 24/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > > Sometimes a seemingly involved discussion/debate surprisingly end so > quickly. Allright then, I'll throw you another one :-) >H: > > I imagine from what little I have seen of Buddhists that many of > >them consider Nibbana as an everlasting heaven. But I'll take your > >word for it that true Buddhists don't think that. > > > > Indeed my definition of "true Buddhists" does NOT include those who > think of Nibbana as "everlasting heaven". One hundred thanks to you > for taking "my word" for it. {:-|>> Would a "true Buddhist" identify themselves as a Buddhist? Would a "true Buddhist" say, I am this and not that? What does a "true Buddhist" identify with at all? Kind Regards Herman 59714 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 5:58pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' stu =?WINDO... egberdina Hi Howard, I don't know, Herman, but it seems to me that you may be comparing > apples and oranges. To abstain from something involves exertion of will. > Specifically, it involves resisting an action one has a desire for. > Ignorance doesn't > involve an act of will, though of course, unrelatedly, ignoring does. Thanks for the above. Does that mean that ignorance is not so much a state of mind, but the lack of a state of mind? It seems to me that would make DO rather convoluted, and perhaps only useful to a Buddha, in that it points to an absence of something as being a causal agent. It would be saying, you are subject to dependent origination, because you don't know you are subject to dependent origination. Or alternately, because you are not a Buddha, you are not a Buddha. Have I missed something else, or is that the point of teachings on DO? It would seem to me from such sayings as you recently quoted on the mind being inherently luminous, but subject to defilement, that knowing is the default state of the mind, and that therefore ignorance is not so much the lack of a thing, but the presence of things ie defilements. And so a coming to know is not the acquiring of a new state, but the return to a state that never was absent, by a ridding of whatever obscured it. Your thoughts are appreciated :-) Kind Regards Herman 59715 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. egberdina Hi Nina, I was interested in the following comment. -------- > N: Also distraction is a reality and has to be known. > I admire Ven. Bodhi as a translator, but when he speaks as a meditation > master I think differently. This is how Bikkhu Bodhi describes himself. During my early years in Sri Lanka I did very little intensive meditation. This was not my ordination teacher's mode of practice; he integrated regular periods of meditation into his day-to-day life. When I later practiced intensive retreats on my own, I used anapana-sati [mindfulness of breathing] as my sole meditation subject. But after some time, I found my mind became dry and rigid, and I felt the need to soften and enrich it with other types of meditation. Thus, at different times and under different circumstances, I learned the practices that constitute the "four protective meditations": recollection of the Buddha, the meditation on loving kindness, the contemplation of the repugnant nature of the body, and the recollection of death. Throughout my life as a monk I have made extensive use of these four meditation subjects. I have also done occasional extended retreats at hermitages in Sri Lanka and elsewhere. Regretfully, though, because of my poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached any attainments worthy of a true practitioner. from http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002b/bhikkhu_bodhi.htm Kind Regards Herman 59716 From: han tun Date: Tue May 23, 2006 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... hantun1 Dear Tep and Matheesha, Tep asked me to explain the critically important role of the “sense of danger” in conditioning insight knowledges. Dear Tep, by “sense of danger” do you mean “aadinava”? If so, please read on. In ten vipassanaa nanas, aadinava nana occupies 6th position. In one abhidhamma book, it is interpreted as the knowledge that realizes the fault and unsatisfactoriness in naama and ruupa. Rhys Davids Dictionary gives its meaning as disadvantage, danger, full of wretchedness. I prefer the word “danger” or “drawback.” When the meditator has reached the stage of aadinava, because of the dangers which he sees in naama and ruupa he gets fed up with them. This stage is nibbidaa nana, the 7th position in ten vipassanaa nanas. The abhidhamma book interprets it as the knowledge of disgust in naama and ruupa as they are unsatisfactory. Rhys Davids Dictionary gives its meaning as weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, aversion, indifference, disenchantment. The Dictionary added that it is the preliminary and conditional states for the attainment of Nibbaana. Therefore, aadinava plays a critically important role in conditioning the arising of further insight knowledges. If the meditator does not see aadinava in the five aggregates, there will be no nibbidaa, and if he does not develop nibbidaa nana his progress will stop there. He will be very happy to go round and round in samsara. ------------------------------ Let us look at an episode in the Life of Buddha, taken from The Buddha and His Teachings by Naarada Mahaathera. Quote [In Benares there was a millionaire's son, named Yasa, who led a luxurious life. One morning he rose early and, to his utter disgust, saw his female attendants and musicians asleep in repulsive attitudes. The whole spectacle was so disgusting that the palace presented the gloomy appearance of a charnel house. Realizing the vanities of worldly life, he stole away from home, saying "Distressed am I, oppressed am I," and went in the direction of Isipatana where the Buddha was temporarily residing after having made the five Bhikkhus attain Arahantship. At that particular time the Buddha, as usual, was pacing up and down in an open space. Seeing him coming from afar, the Buddha came out of His ambulatory and sat on a prepared seat. Not far from Him stood Yasa, crying -- "O distressed am I! Oppressed am I!" Thereupon the Buddha said – "Here there is no distress, O Yasa! Here there is no oppression, O Yasa! Come hither, Yasa! Take a seat. I shall expound the Dhamma to you." The distressed Yasa was pleased to hear the encouraging words of the Buddha. Removing his golden sandals, he approached the Buddha, respectfully saluted Him and sat on one side. The Buddha expounded the doctrine to him, and he attained the first stage of Sainthood (Sotaapatti). At first the Buddha spoke to him on generosity (daana), morality (siila), celestial states (sagga), the evils of sensual pleasures (kaamaadinava), the blessings of renunciation (nekkhammaanisamsa). When He found that his mind was pliable and was ready to appreciate the deeper teaching He taught the Four Noble Truths.] End quote. This six-step teaching: (1) daana kathaa, (2) siila kathaa, (3) sagga kathaa, (4) aadinava kathaa, (5) nekkhamma kathaa, and (6) ariya sacca kathaa, became the standard method of “gradual training” (anupubbi kathaa), the framework the Buddha used throughout his 45 years of teaching to guide new comers from the first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the realization of Nibbaana. The new comer who was listening to Buddha would be quite happy up to sagga kathaa. He would think that “Oh, if I do daana and observe siila, I will go to deva realm, very good!”. Then the Buddha said that even in the deva planes there are sensual gratifications which are fraud with dangers. And then the Buddha taught those dangers, the aadinava kathaa. Then the new comer would suddenly become frightened after learning the dangers. Then the Buddha said not to be afraid, and that there is the way out, and that way out is renunciation, and he taught the advantages of renunciation, the nikkhamma kathaa. Thus aadinava is the turning point from being complacent to the realization of dangers and the arising of desire to escape from those dangers. Therefore, you will see that aadinava plays a critically important role in conditioning the arising of further insight knowledges. ------------------------------ Let us next look at what aadinava means in suttanta pitaka. I quote the following passage from MN 148 Chachakka Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn148.html Quote ["Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed. That a person — without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible.] End quote. In the above paragraph you will see the sentence: “If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed.” When touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, the meditator is obsessed with underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya) and he does not see five things with regard to feelings. What five? (1) the origination (samudayanca) (2) passing away (atthangamanca) (3) allure (assaadanca) (4) drawback (aadinavanca) (5) escape (nissarananca) The Buddha added that without abandoning the ignorance (which veils the above five things with regard to feelings) and giving rise to clear knowing, it is impossible to put an end to suffering and stress in the here and now. Therefore, you will see here also “aadinava” is one of the facts that need to be discerned for further development. ---------------------------- So what actually is aadinava? I will quote a passage from SN XXII.57 Sattatthana Sutta: Seven Bases, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-057.html Quote ["And what is form? The four great existents [the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on form: that is the allure of form. The fact that form is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of form. The subduing of desire & passion for form, the abandoning of desire & passion for form: that is the escape from form.] End quote. In the above paragraph you will see the sentence: “The fact that form is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of form.” That is the drawback or aadinava: (1) inconstant (anicca) (2) stressful (dukkha) (3) subject to change (viparinaama) Therefore, aadinava means anicca, dukkha, and viparinaama of conditioned things. Respectfully, Han --- indriyabala wrote: > > Han is very good at explaining the > critically-important role of the > "sense of danger" in conditioning insight > knowledges. Can you do it > again for me and Matheesha, Han? > > Warm regards, > Tep > === 59717 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 9:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... scottduncan2 Dear Herman, I take up the pen once more...(Without disappointment) H: "Yes, agreed. But an interesting aside is the strong need felt by some to have the Abhidhamma as the Buddha's literal words. This goes back to the need for authority and lineage, and suggests to me that the value of the book would be based on who the author is, not because of what it says. As for me, for all I care, the suttas were recited by Donald Duck to Goofy. It's their content that matters." Content matters. That is correct. I must gently chide you, however, while at the same time praising you for your honesty. You have not read any Abhidhamma. (See below for your famous divulgence). I've not read all the suttas by a long shot. I've not read all the Abhidhamma by a long shot. I've read some of both. If content matters, lets start reading suttas and abhidhamma together. I thought you were an empiricist! (well, I'm not sure what you are since you still contrast scientific method with positivism - see below). At any rate, I press on... H: "There are scholars who are satisfied that Abhidhamma and beyond has ideas in it that are not mirrored in the suttas. Of course there are also scholars that disagree. Their discussions and disagreement follow, perhaps, from their academic interest in this sort of stuff. My interest in this material is not academic, so I wouldn't get involved." On what is your satisfaction with the suttas based? I personally take them on faith (I know, how gauche of me, but there you are) and I'll assume you do as well. I suppose I take Abhidhamma on the same basis. We oughtn't argue over matters of faith, Herman, since this would be disrespectful to us both and I'm not into that, but can we proceed in a step-wise fashion and truly study something in both areas of the Dhamma, and see what is there? Not as scholars (well not me anyway because I'm no scholar) but as men of faith? It'd be cool. H: "I have never read the Abhidhamma or its commentaries. But what I gather from third party sources is that it puts forward a category of irreducible phenomena with essential characteristics that come to individually exist absolutely for a definite period, and that insight knowledge of these irreducible ultimates leads to enlightenment. Needless to say, such a notion is not to be found in the suttas." Bring forth your "third-party sources" Herman. Lets take a look at this. I think its very important. Why don't we take a look at this concern you raise regarding the characteristics of dhammas, pa~n~na, and nibbaana, and really examine it. I would humbly suggest that you are prone to snipe at things from the shadows, only hinting at your position while making it clear at the same time. I think its time to come out and take a good, hard look. For learning sake. I know I'd learn a lot. H: "It is my reading of the Suttas that the Buddha empirically discovered the principles based on which he could say that anything that can be experienced is a mental product, but lending itself to the illusion of self-existence, permanence, or desirability." And by "empirically" you mean what exactly? I'd ask you to be clear here since you go on below to again discuss "positivism" and remain, to this muddled reader, quite imprecise. We need to read and quote because it is not my understanding that a conditioned dhamma is considered in any way to be self-existant, permanent, or desirable. I'm leaving nibbaana out of that statement since of it I know less than anything and I don't think it is exactly describable. That a conditioned dhamma arises, is, and falls away completely seems staight-forward and non-contradictory enough. H: "Anything that posits real, though momentary existence, is irreconcilably at odds with the middle way of neither existing or not-existing." Please explain this further. How do you understand "neither existing or not-existing?" Is this some sort of sutta-code for nihilism? (Now that was a bit harsh, wasn't it, sorry old man.) You write excellent introductory sentences and then leave the reader dangling, which, although good for ratings, is a bit hard on the nerves! H: "...How, for instance, does one arrive at the notion that any instance of anything was irreducible? Taking an illusion to establish the reality of another illusion is poor practice. The whole positivist enterprise is to establish the reality of the present moment, while everything the Buddha said to those inclined to hear it was to uproot the very mind that creates the illusion of existence." Okay. Positivism as I understand it is opposed to metaphysical and theoretical explanations, favouring instead the observable and the factual, the empirically verifiable. If the Buddha was the empiricist you say he was, and I don't disagree, then how was he not a positivist? Please tell me in what sense you are using the term positivist to knock the abhidhamma method of explanation. Forgive my ignorance (or if its you, I'll be forgiving as well). Lets get this aspect cleared up first before we go on to discuss the illusory this and that, shall we? Well, enough for now, Herman my man. Later! Sincerely, Scott. 59718 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:27pm Subject: Re: Re: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_=91... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/23/06 9:05:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > I don't know, Herman, but it seems to me that you may be comparing > >apples and oranges. To abstain from something involves exertion of will. > >Specifically, it involves resisting an action one has a desire for. > >Ignorance doesn't > >involve an act of will, though of course, unrelatedly, ignoring does. > > > > Thanks for the above. Does that mean that ignorance is not so much a state > of mind, but the lack of a state of mind? > --------------------------------------- Howard: It's the submerging of an ability - the ability to know truly. It can certainly be viewed as a state of mind, the state of darkness, of obscuration. My point is, however, that it is not something willed into existence. It is not a thing created at some point in time that destroyed an earlier state of perfection, for we *begin* encumbered by ignorance, and it is its removal, stem and root, that calls for the doing. There was no beginning to avijja, but there can be an end. ---------------------------------------- It seems to me that would make DO> > rather convoluted, and perhaps only useful to a Buddha, in that it points to > an absence of something as being a causal agent. It would be saying, you are > subject to dependent origination, because you don't know you are subject to > dependent origination. Or alternately, because you are not a Buddha, you are > not a Buddha. Have I missed something else, or is that the point of > teachings on DO? -------------------------------------- Howard: Ignorance is the covering up of the ability to see things as they are: impermanent, unsatisfying, and not-self. Ignorance is a disability. As to dependent origination, because we are unable to clearly see the unsatisfying nature, the impermanence, and the insubstantiality, impersonality, and dependent, contingent nature of conditions - that is, because of unknowing (avijja), fabrications are defiled, and defiled fabrications lead to defiled awareness, and so on. -------------------------------------- > > It would seem to me from such sayings as you recently quoted on the mind > being inherently luminous, but subject to defilement, that knowing is the > default state of the mind, and that therefore ignorance is not so much the > lack of a thing, but the presence of things ie defilements. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, ignorance is an adventitious mental cloud cover, an obcuring fog. But it has been present, arising and rearising, since the very no-beginning of time, to use a Mahayana phrase I like. I think of it as an ever-recurring flaw that can be removed, a repeated malfunctioning that can be corrected, a congenital disease that can be cured. -------------------------------------- And so a coming> > to know is not the acquiring of a new state, but the return to a state that > never was absent, by a ridding of whatever obscured it. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Poetically it is a returning, but truly not. It is an actualization of a potential. There was no "fall from grace", no leaving of the Garden - not as an event in time. We were never in that Garden, but it was the home we were destined for, and removing the angels with their burning swords barring the way at the Garden gate will let us enter to make it our true and lasting home. ----------------------------------------- > > Your thoughts are appreciated :-) > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59719 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Nina) = In a message dated 5/23/06 9:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... quotes Bhikkhu Bodhi: > Regretfully, though, because of my > poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached any > attainments worthy of a true practitioner. > ========================= Right there he proves himself wrong! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59720 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 23, 2006 11:12pm Subject: Why I am Buddhist ... ??? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Deep Truths can sometimes be told by a Wise Junior: I am a Buddhist, not merely because my parents are Buddhists, but out of assured conviction. After coming to an understanding of the truth of the Noble Triple Gem, I decided to be a Buddhist. Whenever here a religious, private, social or national event starts, the blessings of the Triple Gem are invoked. But what does taking refuge in the Triple Gem really mean? We must really understand this! Taking refuge in the Buddha means seeking and understanding Nibbana (Nirvana). Man's freedom, or the road, which leads to Nibbana, is closed from time to time. The Noble Person who finds this closed road and reveals it to the world is always the Buddha. The Dhamma, which we take refuge in, is the path to Nibbana, preached by the Buddha. There are many eminent persons who went along that path and understood Nibbana. They also teach us to go along this correct path. Those eminent persons are called the Maha Sangha. However, the Buddha is not an automatic rescuer. We cannot get the freedom we are seeking by just praying to the Buddha. Most Buddhists offer flowers to Buddha statues. They hold religious festivals. But Buddhists do not do those things to satisfy the Buddha. They do it as a way to Nibbana for all living beings. Many offer flowers and go to temples to prove that they are practicing Buddhists. But if we observe the precepts & the religious teachings and gain a good understanding of the Dhamma, it will help us to become good Buddhists and win a pleasurable and happy future. However, we can seek & gain the truth of the Dhamma, only if we live according to it. Seeking the Dhamma is seeking the Buddha. So, I observe Buddhism by taking refuge in the Noble Triple Gem… Sadhu – well spoken IMHO - … !!! Dulani Dananga Kiriella, Rajasinghe Central College School, Grade 10, Ruwanwella, Sri Lanka. For becoming a real Buddhist by taking refuge in the triple gem & accept the 5 precepts see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Refuges_&_Precepts.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 59721 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 0:46am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 77. Conascence-condition and Tiika. Part II. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 77. Conascence-condition. Part II. As we have seen, citta and cetasikas condition one another by way of conascence-condition. The four great Elements condition one another by way of conascence-condition. At the moment of rebirth, the rebirth-consciousness and the heartbase condition one another by way of conascence-condition. Furthermore, the Vis. explains three more instances of conascence-condition. ------- Text Vis.: (iv) states of consciousness and its concomitants are a condition, as conascence condition, for the kinds of materiality originated by consciousness; -------- N: Ruupa produced by citta arises at the same time as citta and its accompanying cetasikas. --------- Text Vis.: (v) the great primaries are a condition, as conascence condition, for derived materiality; ------- N: The derived ruupas (upaadaa ruupas), the ruupas apart from the four great Elements, always arise together with the four great Elements which support them. --------- Text Vis.: (vi) material states are sometimes [as at rebirth-linking] a condition, as conascence condition, and sometimes [as in the course of an existence] not a condition as conascence condition, for immaterial states' (P.tn.1,3). This refers only to the heart-basis. -------- N: The rebirth-consciousness and the heart-base are produced by kamma (in the planes where there are naama and ruupa) and arise at the same time, thus, in this case the heart-base is a conascence-condition for citta and cetasikas. During life (pavatti kaale), this is not so. Then the heart-base and all ruupas that are base have to arise before the citta they condition, since ruupa is weak at its arising moment and cannot be a base for citta. The Tiika refers to the Pa.t.thaana text which classifies as ninefold the dhammas involved in the relationship of conascence-condition. For example, kusala dhammas condition kusala dhammas by way of conascence-condition, and this refers to kusala citta and its accompanying cetasikas. The same is said about akusala dhammas and indeterminate (avyaakata) dhammas that include kiriyacittas and vipaakacittas. The same is said about naama and ruupa (indeterminate dhamma) that arise together. -------- Conclusion: Conascence-condition pertains to our life now. For example, in the ŒDhammasanga.ni all the cetasikas are enumerated that accompany the first type of kusala citta of the sense-sphere which is associated with paññaa. Many sobhana cetasikas are needed for its support, it could not arise without confidence in wholesomeness (saddhaa), energy, mindfulness, detachment and many others. Kusala citta can also arise without paññaa, but when it is associated with paññaa, there is a higher degree of kusala. Paññaa supports all the accompanying dhammas. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of the first type of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. The sobhana cetasikas have to assist mahaa-kusala citta associated with paññaa, and each of them performs its own task. All of them are necessary so that mahaa-kusala citta with paññaa can arise just for a moment and perform its function, and then citta and cetasikas fall away together. The cetasikas condition the citta by way of conascence-condition and by several other conditions. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. It arises when the right conditions are present and then it falls away immediately, nobody can cause it to last. When akusala citta arises it is supported by the accompanying cetasikas by way of conascence. For example, lobha-múla-citta has as roots moha and lobha, and these roots condition the accompanying dhammas by way of conascence-condition and also by way of root-condition. Phenomena can condition other phenomena by way of several relations. Lobha-múla-citta may be accompanied by pleasant feeling. Feeling is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and when it accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala. Pleasant feeling which is akusala has a characteristic which is quite different from pleasant feeling which is kusala. Feeling that is akusala is accompanied by restlessness (uddhacca) and feeling that is kusala is accompanied by calm (passadhi). There is a great variety of citta and cetasikas which mutually support one another while they arise together. The four great Elements condition one another by way of conascence-condition and they also condition the derived ruupas, the other ruupas that arise together with them in one group, by way of conascence-condition. Sound could never arise alone, it needs the support of other ruupas that arise simultaneously with it. But through earsense only sound is experienced, not the other ruupas that accompany it. There is such a great variety of sense objects we experience every day, but they are only different compositions of rúpa elements. There is a great variety of sounds or colours, they are not the same. We can learn that they are ruupas arising because of different conditions. Learning about conascence-condition helps us to understand the nature of non-self of dhammas that arise together and are assisted by way of conascence-condition. ***** Nina. 59722 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 0:46am Subject: metta 15 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. Date: Wed May 24, 2006 0:57am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 454- Non-Attachment/Alobha (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd ***** We have many more moments with attachment than with nonattachment and we are so used to live with attachment that we hardly realize that it is akusala. A person who is leading the life of a layman takes it for granted to be attached to people and possessions. We may think that such kinds of attachment are not dangerous, provided we do not harm others, but all kinds of akusala lead to sorrow. There is attachment time and again and thus we accumulate it evermore. When we stand up, move around, reach for things, eat or go to sleep, we want most of the time something for ourselves and then there are cittas rooted in attachment. We are almost all the time thinking of ourselves, we try to acquire pleasant things for ourselves and we expect other people to be agreeable to us. Even when we think that we apply ourselves to kusala, for example, when we listen to the Dhamma or speak about the Dhamma, there are likely to be many moments of attachment arising after the kusala cittas. We may be attached to “our kusala”, we tend to like the idea of ourselves being good and wise, we find ourselves important. •***** Ch28 - Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== 59724 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 24, 2006 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(n) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > I will try to answer these three questions. > This is my continuing learning process. > I want to understand the subject more. > One way to learn more is to answer such questions. > Just being a learning process, my answers may be > incorrect or inadequate. > Please feel free to correct me. .... S: Like Nina, I'd like to just add that I thought your replies were very helpful and 'spot-on'. Thank you very much for your assistance and very appropriate quotes. Metta, Sarah ======== > (i) Why will moral shame and fear of blame develop to > the extent that wisdom develops? > > I found the answer to the above question in SN 45.1 > Avijjaa sutta, where the Buddha said: > “Bhikkhus, true knowledge (vijjaa) is the forerunner > in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of > shame (hiri) and fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) > following along.” > > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi explained on the above statement > that “True knowledge (vijjaa) is knowledge of one’s > responsibility for one’s own action > (kammassakataanaana). It is a forerunner for hiri and > ottappa in two modes, as a conascent condition > (sahajaatavasena, a condition for simultaneously > arisen states) and as a decisive-support condition > (upanissayavasena, a strong causal condition for > subsequently arisen states).” > > Therefore, the true knowledge or wisdom and moral > shame and fear of blame can arise simultaneously, or > wisdom can support the arising of moral shame and fear > of blame. Hiri and ottappa in turn can assist the > kusala cittas together with many other sobhana > cetasikas. With wisdom we will have more confidence in > kusala and we will see the dangers and disadvantages > of akusala, and hiri and ottappa will develop > accordingly. By this way of conascent condition and > decisive-support condition, it can be said that moral > shame and fear of blame develop to the extent that > wisdom develops. 59725 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. nilovg Hi Herman, thank you for the quote which makes me understand more the life of Ven. Bodhi. The four protective meditations he used are mentioned by the subco. to the satipa.t.thaanasutta as: for all occasions. They can be applied in daily life as short recollections. Nina. op 24-05-2006 03:30 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...: > This is how Bikkhu Bodhi describes himself. .....Regretfully, though, because of my > poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached any > attainments worthy of a true practitioner. > > > from http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002b/bhikkhu_bodhi.htm 59726 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 24, 2006 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visible object at Cooran / Was Suffering doesn't always announce itself. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & all, I've followed all the discussions on visible object with interest, of course! Thanks for starting the thread. --- ken_aitch wrote: > The nature of sense objects (notably, of visible object) has been a > recurring topic at DSG, and a momentous one for many of us. It seems > to mark breakthroughs in the way we understand the Dhamma. ... S: Yes, I think so too. ... >Currently, > the eureka element is lost on me: I can't quite recall the > breakthroughs, and I have no firm opinion on how visible object > should be understood. Never mind. Courage, patience, and good > cheer! :-) .... S: I think the best we can say is that it's just that which is seen exactly as it is. As soon as we start to discuss any detail about visible object (or colour), even 'meaningless blobs of colour', it's just thinking about it and I don't believe it helps awareness to be aware. On account of visible objects seen and the sanna which marks them, we have long, long stories. Clearly the visible object seen 'here' is different from the visible object seen 'there'. Each time we open our eyes, a different visible object appears. I think this quote Nina just gave from 'A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' is relevant here too: "Citta is the reality which clearly knows the object which appears, be it through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind-door. Whatever object phassa cetasika contacts, the citta which arises together with it clearly knows the characteristic of that object, it knows each different object." ... S: Each visible object is experienced and known exactly as it is by seeing consciousness. Whether we call visible objects 'meaningful' or 'meaningless blobs' doesn't matter, but each visible object has its own particular characteristic which is experienced by citta. The same applies to sounds, smells, tastes and tangible experiences. Each one is different. ..... "When it is said of citta, the reality which experiences something, that it has the characteristic of clearly knowing an object, we should understand what that means. It means that citta knows the different characteristics of the different objects appearing through the senses or through the mind-door. Citta is the reality which clearly knows an object, and the object is a condition for citta to arise and to experience that object....." ..... S: And if awareness arises and is aware of a visible object or sound or taste or any other reality, it is aware of that reality just as it is. So when we use concepts (as the Dhammasangani does) to describe visible object or other dhammas, it's merely for communication and to indicate that not only are visible objects different from the cittas which experience them or from other rupas included in rupa khandha, but also to show that each visible object has a particular characteristic which distinguishes it from any other one. I understood that this was the point that you and Howard were both making. Sometimes we appreciate some aspect of the teachings and then start thinking or having doubts.... >Courage, patience, and good cheer! :-) .... S: Yes! Metta, Sarah ======= 59727 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 24, 2006 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to radiate metta sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Hallo Sarah > <...> > An (any) accumulation of cittas or cetasikas is not a ultimate > reality for two reasons: > - it is not arising and falling away within some milli-seconds > - it does not occur on the list of 89/121 cittas+52 cetasikas+28 > rupas+1 nibbana > It is not ultimate as a accumulation; you say "it REFERS to to all > cittas and cetasikas"; yes: but it IS not a citta or cetasika, isn't > that correct? .... S: My understanding is that an accumulation is a citta or cetasika, i.e an ultimate reality. Take attachment now - it's real. It's also an accumulation. We don't have to use any particular word, but when attachment arises, it 'piles up' or accumulates, like DSG posts! .... > So it must be a concept. > OR it belongs to a third class of realities, together with 'kamma' .... S: Kamma is also an ultimate reality. Each cetana arising now is 'kamma'. Those cetanas arising with the javana cittas have a dual function of not only 'co-ordinating' other mental factors, but also of 'willing' kusala or akusala. In some instances, this cetana may be powerful enough to bring results later on. No matter what kind of cetana or kamma it is, it's still an ultimate reality. I agree that the terms 'kamma' and 'accumulation' as used in conventional speech are not representing precise realities. .... > About #58095 ("On spice and paradoxes") Only a remark on your last > words: "Often such paradoxes arise because of our very limited > understanding." > J: That's possible but you seem to suppose that a paradox is > something unpleasant, something to devoid: not to me. > You say "A desire to give up desires is lobha"; and I add: it is also > a logical paradox in the way Bertrand Russell talked about. But of > course ging up desires is more important that logic. .... S: Good points. Yes, a paradox may not be bad! Sometimes wholesome chanda is also translated as 'desire' (rather inaccurately imho). So it may be wholesome chanda to give up desire which is being referred to, as in the SN sutta I referred to recently in my posts on 'Any cheers for Tanha.....'. (Your comments would be welcome on that too:-)). Thanks for these clarifications and comments, Joop. Metta, Sarah p.s Could you v.briefly elaborate on your Bertrand Russell comment above in context. My father was a great B.R. fan, but I'm afraid I've forgotten anything I ever read which wasn't much. ====== 59728 From: han tun Date: Wed May 24, 2006 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(n) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind words. With metta, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > S: Like Nina, I'd like to just add that I thought > your replies were very > helpful and 'spot-on'. Thank you very much for your > assistance and very > appropriate quotes. > Metta, > Sarah > ======== 59729 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed May 24, 2006 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 5 Clusters of Clinging ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Hi friend Sarah: 1: I agree: There can be clinging to whatsoever form of form... 2: Yes, indeed I just tried to give the main examples in 1 single line. 3: The Cluster of Clinging to Consciousness is the addiction to _the Awareness_ of the seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched, and cognized… In other words to visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile & mental consciousness... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <....> 59730 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 6:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... matheesha333 Hi Han (and Tep) Your post on aadinava was wonderful. Thank you for that. I thought I would share with you this sutta, which gives a taste of that danger you explained so well: wth metta Matheesha --------------------- Samyutta Nikaya III.25 Pabbatopama Sutta The Simile of the Mountains ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- At Savatthi. Then King Pasenadi Kosala approached the Blessed One in the middle of the day and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Well now, great king, where are you coming from in the middle of the day?" "Just now, lord, I was engaged in the sort of royal affairs typical of head-anointed noble-warrior kings intoxicated with the intoxication of sovereignty, obsessed by greed for sensual pleasures, who have attained stable control in their country, and who rule having conquered a great sphere of territory on earth." "What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what should be done?" "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain - - what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great king, what should be done?" "As aging and death are rolling in on me, lord, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds? "There are, lord, elephant battles [fought by] head-anointed noble- warrior kings intoxicated with the intoxication of sovereignty, obsessed by greed for sensual pleasures, who have attained stable control in their country, and who rule having conquered a great sphere of territory on earth; but there is no use for those elephant battles, no scope for them, when aging and death are rolling in. There are cavalry battles... chariot battles... infantry battles... but there is no use for those infantry battles, no scope for them, when aging and death are rolling in. In this royal court there are counsellors who, when the enemies arrive, are capable of dividing them by their wits; but there is no use for those battles of wits, no scope for them, when aging and death are rolling in. In this royal court there is abundant bullion and gold stored in vaults and depositories, and with such wealth we are capable of buying off enemies when they come; but there is no use for those battles of wealth, no scope for them, when aging and death are rolling in. As aging and death are rolling in on me, lord, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- Gone, the Teacher, further said this: Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. Here elephant troops can hold no ground, nor can chariots or infantry, nor can a battle of wits or wealth win out. So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. One who practices the Dhamma in thought, word, & deed, receives praise here on earth and after death rejoices in heaven. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn03-025.html 59731 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... Correct Vision of Nama & Rupa matheesha333 Hi Tep, >Tep: In principle, one may attain the correct vision(yathabhuta- dassana) of > the name & form by contemplation of the clinging aggregates based on > the Dependent Origination in forward order['So with avijja as > condition there are sankhara.' etc.] and reverse order [Ageing&death > back to ignorance]. It also makes sense to me if we use the "four > groups" of DO instead of the forward or reverse direction. M: Dukkha (jati, jara, marana...) is the most gross and easiest to detect. sukha vedana, tanha is also fairly easy to detect, (harder to differentiate though). I think of upadana only when something arises again, after a short lapse of thinking something else. ie- there is bhava. (when something pleasant pops into the mind again,after experiencing it previously, for example). vinnyana, phassa can be detected if we focus on the process of perception through vipassana. Sankhara (I'm not 100% sure about this) can also be detected arising prior to vinnana merging with a sense door,in the process of phassa, but is very very subtle. Avijja can be infered because when there is lack of it (with the continued awareness of tilakkana, at least impermanance) there is no arising of sanakhara, no vinnana ..no sense perception -leading into the phala experience where there is nothing arising and passing away. This is the reverse of the DO. Some people may have had these experiences but not have the labels to put on each one of them. It is particularly difficult to know that the reverse of the DO is happening if the concepts hadnt been applied to it and pondered upon. with metta Matheesha 59732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:48am Subject: our discussions in Paris, Part I nilovg Our Discussions in Paris, Part I. Dear Han and all, The discussions between Lodewijk and me while in Paris, were mainly about Han¹s points. Han¹s questions and remarks are also those of many others, also of Lodewijk. He sympathizes very much with your questions. Thinking about them made him also somewhat downhearted, he said that it is all so very difficult. I answered: we should be grateful that we can listen to the Dhamma, and gain even a little more understanding. Any amount of understanding is very precious. At the moment of understanding there can never be depression. We first spoke about trying and effort. Han, you expressed very well how you have accumulated the tendency to try hard as to your spiritual development for a long time. I quote some of your words: could not do anything for my spiritual development; > and that the right understanding and all other > paramattha dhammas will arise only when the conditions > are present. I started late in life the religious > studies and practice, and all along I believe that I > can and I must do my utmost for my spiritual > development.... Therefore, I have all along accepted that I must do > this or I must do that. Now suddenly, I cannot change > my belief (and accept) that all are conditioned dhammas and they > will arise only when there are conditions. I have no > big ambitions. If I do not become a sotaapanna in this > life it would not bother me at all. My duty is to > “try. Whatever results I will get will depend on my > efforts and on my previous kamma (from this life and > past lives). I cannot let go of my right to “try². > Whether that desire to “try² is associated with lobha, > or atta or ignorance, I do not care. My duty is to > try. The rest will be up to my kamma.> --------- N: Lodewijk said: ŒYou may consider that trying should be right trying, that it can be viriya, energy, of the eightfold Path. It has to be accompanied by right understanding. Of course, you will have lobha, none of us can escape lobha so long as we are not arahats, but it is important that lobha should be understood as such.² We spoke about it that the Buddha often said: Œtrain yourselves thus, monks...¹ or: ŒAn effort must be made to realize: this is dukkha...¹ But, as you also recite and read in the Anattaa Lakkhanasutta: sankhaarakkhandha is non-self. This khandha includes the cetasika effort, viriya. Lodewijk said about your trying: Œ Han is doing quite enough: listening, considering, pondering over the Dhamma, this is already right effort.¹ ****** Nina. 59733 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/ matheesha333 Hi Nina, > > M: When does indriya become bala? > --------- > I can answer in the case of insight, M: Thanks for that, Nina. Talking of development, I can only think of two other instances - where the indriya are said to develop with each stage of attainment. The other instance is about the 7 factors of enlightenment being developed to their full degree at arahathood. I do not seem to remember the idea of indriya becoming bala, in the suttas. (I might be wrong about that though). They are often mentioned side by side in the 37 factors of enlightenenment. I know you are from Thailand. I dont think you are resident there though. :) I would like to know your views of the development of Buddhism in Thailand - but only if you really dont have anything to do though :) thanks again, with metta Matheesha 59734 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed May 24, 2006 8:28am Subject: RE: Please don't.... onco111 Hi Ken, I'm glad you are taking this in good spirit. To me the underlying issue is the distinction between understanding and conceptualization and the relationship between understanding and conceptualization, and I think it's an important one. > To my mind, our discussions offer the best of both worlds. They are > meaningful â€" because we base our ideas on the same texts â€" and they > are spirited â€" because you stubbornly refuse to toe the Party line. > :-) Doggonit! I thought I was toeing the Party Line and that it was you, Sarah, and Sukin who were off Partying in your own Circle, away from the Line! > <. . .> > D: > However, there is a distinction between a description of an > understanding and the understanding itself. I think it is entirely > possible for non-Buddhists to have an understanding that there is no > Self that is capable of generating kusala. > --------------------------------- > > That's a big statement, and it is only after a lot of discussion that > I have begun to see what you mean by it. I think we have established > that, by `understanding,' you mean the real thing - samma-ditthi as a > factor of mundane path consciousness (satipatthana). So you really > are making a big statement. Not so big...It doesn't touch on the supramundane path or enlightenment. Those belong strictly under Buddhadhamma and are not found outside the dispensation. We agree on that. ..... > KH: What do the texts say about panna arising outside the dispensation? Sarah pointed out some passages that say pretty clearly and unambiguously that full enlightenment--and even sotapattimagga--do not arise outside the dispensation. I don't think we have any disagreement about that. KH: I know they say that non-Buddhists can practise jhana, which is kusala concentration developed by a form of panna. Do they say that that same form or level) of panna can know kusala as anatta?" I don't think so. It knows the difference between kusala and akusala, and it can identify even the most subtle forms of lobha-cetasika as being akusala. However, it cannot identify lobha-cetasika (or any other cetasika) as being a cetasika. It does not now the difference between nama and rupa. --> D: I think you are right about jhana knowing the difference between kusala and akusala, including subtle forms of lobha. [I'd disagree about "the most subtle forms of lobha", though, because, for example, I don't think the lobha for becoming is recognized clearly as akusala by mundane jhana.] > So, if any non-Buddhist â€" even a jhana master - were to > conclude, "All kusala is anatta," that would be based on speculation, > not on panna. "Even" a jhana master? But jhana is samatha, not insight... > <. . .> > KH: We agree that mere speculation can be described in any form of words, D: Ouch! That's not what I'm saying at all. Some descriptions and speculations are terrible, counterproductive, lousy, damaging. Others are wonderful, helpful, pretty good. None are perfect, but there are real and important differences. > KH: but I am not so sure the same can be said about right view. Certainly not just ANY words, but there are many ways to describe the scene when the world is illuminated by Right View. Just look at the vast array of colorful descriptions in the suttas; then throw in the Abhidhamma and commentaries to see that the same understandings can be described in a wide variety of ways. > I am > going over old ground here, but I think right understanding of > concepts-of-dhammas goes hand in hand with right understanding of > actual dhammas. Therefore, a practitioner of satipatthana would know > all the right conceptual explanations of nama and rupa, and of their > conditioned, momentary arising, and so on. He would be most unlikely > to use the concept, "All kusala is anatta" and stop there. He would > say, "All dhammas are anatta." I think we differ on two points. 1. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "right conceptual explanation". All explanations fall short of the mark. Some help illumine a particular aspect of the world; some do not; and some cement the veil of ignorance to the face and splatter it with seven thick layers of black paint. 2. I don't believe that "right conceptualization" is a condition for samma-ditthi. However, I do think conceptualization plays a role in defining the limits to how deep insight can go. Metta, Dan 59735 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:14am Subject: metta 16 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. ****** Nina 59736 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:14am Subject: Re: Reifying, Atta-Sense in Action Re: [dsg] Re: should, training, free will etc. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your effort of googling for D. III. I kept your post on reifying with me, but I have some puzzles. But I do not want to engage in debating so much. You see, we can say: citta is an experiencing, I say: it experiences an object. But when we come to the cetasika that is cetanaa or kamma, that is an action. Also viriya or effort you like to stress so much. All these cetasikas have tasks to perform, they are active. How could kamma or intention be just an experiencing? The more we see condiitons, the less reifying. Anyway, thinking does not really lead to detachment, even we tell ourselves, there is no doer. There has to be detachment from nama and rupa, but we take them together and this is a problem. We cannot separate nama from rupa, only paññaa developed through insight can. It can make our world crumble apart. But I do not insist to pursue this subject. Nina. op 21-05-2006 16:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: >>> ======================== >>> No, it's not the phenomenalism. It's a matter of not reifying, and a >>> matter of not conceiving of an agent or doer. There is doing but no doer. 59737 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. Sense of Danger ... nilovg Dear Han and Matheesha, yes Han, very good post on aadinava, thank you. And Matheesha thank you for the excellent sutta. Conditions a sense of urgency. Nina. op 24-05-2006 15:50 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > Your post on aadinava was wonderful. Thank you for that. > > I thought I would share with you this sutta, which gives a taste of > that danger you explained so well: > > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 > Pabbatopama Sutta > The Simile of the Mountains 59738 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:14am Subject: kamma and vipaaka nilovg Dear Sarah and Howard, After the funeral of the friend I mentioned, the husband wrote us a letter telling us how much pain, after a fall, she had suffered for a few weeks since there were metastases in her bones, inoperable. Lodewijk and I were discussing kamma and vipaaka so hard to fathom. It is among the unthinkables, the acinteyya. One can become mad trying to figure it out. Hard to hear about this happening to such a kind, selfless person. So we talked about the Holocaust, how kind and excellent teachers and fellowpupils at my school suddenly disappeared and never came back. Howard, how was it with your parents and relatives? Were they in Europe? Did you lose them? I said to Lodewijk that there is a Thai saying: Lodewijk finds this a very good saying. I remember Kh Sujin saying something like: when one suffers now it is better than in a hell plane. There were countless past lives and who knows whether he was once a cruel being? Perhaps Sarah or Howard can add something? BTW Sarah, you have no idea how often Lodewijk and I notice conceit now we did not know of before. Like: someone's room is too dark, he does not have good lighting, etc. Nina. 59739 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:32am Subject: Reifying, Atta-Sense in Action Re: [dsg] Re: should, training, free will etc. onco111 Hi Nina (and Howard), I hope I'm not being rude to butt in here...please just slap me aside the head if I get out of line. Nina, you ask: "You see, we can say: citta is an experiencing, I say: it experiences an object. ... How could kamma or intention be just an experiencing?" I'd say: They are not cittas and, therefore, not "experiencings". Dan > The more we see condiitons, the less reifying. > Anyway, thinking does not really lead to detachment, even we tell ourselves, > there is no doer. > There has to be detachment from nama and rupa, but we take them together and > this is a problem. We cannot separate nama from rupa, only paññaa developed > through insight can. It can make our world crumble apart. > But I do not insist to pursue this subject. > Nina. > op 21-05-2006 16:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >>> ======================== > >>> No, it's not the phenomenalism. It's a matter of not reifying, and a > >>> matter of not conceiving of an agent or doer. There is doing but no doer. > 59740 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/ nilovg Dear Matheesha, op 24-05-2006 16:56 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > > M: Thanks for that, Nina. Talking of development, I can only think of > two other instances - where the indriya are said to develop with each > stage of attainment. The other instance is about the 7 factors of > enlightenment being developed to their full degree at arahathood. I > do not seem to remember the idea of indriya becoming bala, in the > suttas. (I might be wrong about that though). They are often > mentioned side by side in the 37 factors of enlightenenment. ------- N: As I understand before arahatship, otherwise paññaa could not develop to that stage. It needs to be bala. In the suttas: but the Path of Discrimination is reckoned as Sutta Pitaka. -------- > I know you are from Thailand. I dont think you are resident there > though. :) I would like to know your views of the development of > Buddhism in Thailand - but only if you really dont have anything to > do though :) ------ N: He, he. I live in Holland, but long ago (more than thirty years) we lived about five years in Thailand, and we still visit it to keep up the contacts. Development of Buddhism there? I do not know. I only visit Kh Sujin and the Foundation, always kept very busy there. More friends are helping Kh Sujin now in giving explanations. I do not know how many listen to the daily radio programs, but very many. I do not know about forest hermitages, I only know what Kom told us. I was glad to hear of monasteries where they are interested at Abhidhamma, and made studies of Yamaka, especially the anusayas. Many learn Pali in Thailand. Kom could tell you more. Nina. 59741 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:58am Subject: Re: Reifying, nilovg Hi Dan, agreed. See what Howard has to say, I mean, if he likes to continue with this. Nina. op 24-05-2006 20:32 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > I hope I'm not being rude to butt in here...please just slap me aside > the head if I get out of line. > > Nina, you ask: "You see, we can say: citta is an experiencing, I say: > it experiences an object. ... How could kamma or intention be just an > experiencing?" > > I'd say: They are not cittas and, therefore, not "experiencings". 59742 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:58am Subject: Re: Reifying, Atta-Sense in Action Re: [dsg] Re: should, training, free will ... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/24/06 2:15:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thank you for your effort of googling for D. III. > I kept your post on reifying with me, but I have some puzzles. But I do not > want to engage in debating so much. -------------------------------- Howard: Nor I. I'll just give a few comments below for the purpose of clarifying. -------------------------------- > You see, we can say: citta is an experiencing, I say: it experiences an > object. > ----------------------------------- Howard: I think there is a big difference in those formulations. There is a big difference between experiencing and a thing that experiences. ---------------------------------- But when we come to the cetasika that is cetanaa or kamma, that is> > an action. Also viriya or effort you like to stress so much. All these > cetasikas have tasks to perform, they are active. How could kamma or > intention be just an experiencing? -------------------------------- Howard: It is not. Cetana is willing, an activity/action. Effort is an activity/action. But so is experiencing an activity/action. All namas are "doings," but none of them is a thing that does. There are activities, but no things that act. Only conventionally are there things that act. And rupas aren't things either, but happenings. Hardness is not a thing that is felt as hard - it is the hardness sensation itself, an occurrence that is the object-content of a body-door experience, and that experiencing is an activity/action, and the two, certainly distinguishable, are, however, inseparable and mutually dependent, the knowing and the known. ---------------------------------------------- > The more we see condiitons, the less reifying. > Anyway, thinking does not really lead to detachment, even we tell ourselves, > there is no doer. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree. We need to *watch*, not just think. ------------------------------------------ > There has to be detachment from nama and rupa, but we take them together > and > this is a problem. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: If by "taking them together" you meaning conflating the two, I agree. But they do *occur* together, in mutual dependence. ----------------------------------------- We cannot separate nama from rupa, only paññaa developed> > through insight can. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I might agree to some extent with the foregoing if 'separate' were replaced by 'distinguish'. I say "to some extent," because it seems to me that I hardly ever confuse nama with rupa, mental with material. ---------------------------------------- It can make our world crumble apart.> > But I do not insist to pursue this subject. > Nina. > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59743 From: han tun Date: Wed May 24, 2006 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... hantun1 Dear Matheesha and Nina (and Tep), Thank you very much, Matheesha, for sharing with me Samyutta Nikaya III.25 Pabbatopama Sutta The Simile of the Mountains, an excellent sutta, that gives a taste of danger (ageing and death) from which we cannot escape. We can only have steadfast and unshakeable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha; and conduct right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds while we are alive and still able to do so. Yes, Nina, the sutta surely gives me a real sense of urgency, now that my days are numbered. Respectfully, Han --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Han (and Tep) > Your post on aadinava was wonderful. Thank you for > that. > I thought I would share with you this sutta, which > gives a taste of > that danger you explained so well: > wth metta > Matheesha > > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 > Pabbatopama Sutta > The Simile of the Mountains ----------------------- > Nina: yes Han, very good post on aadinava, thank > you. And Matheesha thank you for the excellent > sutta. Conditions a sense of urgency. 59744 From: han tun Date: Wed May 24, 2006 0:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] our discussions in Paris, Part I hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Thank you very much for your kind thoughts and considerations on my points even while you were on vacation. I am only afraid that most of my points have already been discussed by DSG members that it might be boring for them. Nevertheless, I appreciate and value your comments and advice. I will be careful to have right efforts with right understanding, bearing in mind that sankhaarakkhandha and all other paramattha dhammas are non-self. I also thank Lodewijk for his encouraging words. I look forward to reading your Part 2 and subsequent Parts. Respectfully, Han --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Our Discussions in Paris, Part I. > > Dear Han and all, > The discussions between Lodewijk and me while in > Paris, were mainly about > Han¹s points. > > N: Lodewijk said: ŒYou may consider that trying > should be right trying, that > it can be viriya, energy, of the eightfold Path. It > has to be accompanied by > right understanding. Of course, you will have lobha, > none of us can escape > lobha so long as we are not arahats, but it is > important that lobha should > be understood as such.² > We spoke about it that the Buddha often said: Œtrain > yourselves thus, > monks...¹ or: ŒAn effort must be made to realize: > this is dukkha...¹ > But, as you also recite and read in the Anattaa > Lakkhanasutta: > sankhaarakkhandha is non-self. This khandha includes > the cetasika effort, > viriya. > Lodewijk said about your trying: Œ Han is doing > quite enough: listening, > considering, pondering over the Dhamma, this is > already right effort.¹ > ****** > Nina. 59745 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 9:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reifying, upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dan) - In a message dated 5/24/06 2:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Dan, > agreed. See what Howard has to say, I mean, if he likes to continue with > this. > Nina. > op 24-05-2006 20:32 schreef Dan D. op onco111@...: > > >I hope I'm not being rude to butt in here...please just slap me aside > >the head if I get out of line. > > > >Nina, you ask: "You see, we can say: citta is an experiencing, I say: > >it experiences an object. ... How could kamma or intention be just an > >experiencing?" > > > >I'd say: They are not cittas and, therefore, not "experiencings". > > ===================== On this specific issue, I just agree with Dan. It is a technical point. And Dan: Man! I just so hate missin' that chance to slap you upside your head! LOL! (I haven't heard that expression used since my high school days! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59746 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed May 24, 2006 1:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reifying, onco111 And, Mr. Wasserman (4th degree TKD guy), I'm glad I'm safely 3000 miles away! Dan P.S. A "reverse side kick" is when you are standing with, say, the left foot forward and then spin to your right to do a side kick with the right leg. P.P.S. So, if cittas are experiencings, then what are cetasikas? Flavorings? This, I think, is the source of the "characteristic" word game that Sarah and were having, viz., "citta experiences object" vs. "citta is the experiencing". E.g., the object is experienced with, say, dosa or ditthi or panya. P.P.P.S. I'm with you on your 'phenomenological' description of rupa too. > And Dan: Man! I just so hate missin' that chance to slap you upside > your head! LOL! (I haven't heard that expression used since my high school days! > ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 59747 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reifying, upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 5/24/06 4:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > And, Mr. Wasserman (4th degree TKD guy), I'm glad I'm safely 3000 > miles away! ------------------------------------ Howard: LOL! (Just a harmless old man now, Dan! ;-)) ----------------------------------- > > Dan > > P.S. A "reverse side kick" is when you are standing with, say, the > left foot forward and then spin to your right to do a side kick with > the right leg. ------------------------------------ Howard: Ah, ok. I know that as a "back kick". ------------------------------------ > > P.P.S. So, if cittas are experiencings, then what are cetasikas? > Flavorings? This, I think, is the source of the "characteristic" word > game that Sarah and were having, viz., "citta experiences object" > vs. "citta is the experiencing". E.g., the object is experienced > with, say, dosa or ditthi or panya. ----------------------------------- Howard: For the most part, I think they are operations as well. Even things like distraction, anger, fear, and love, for example, which might be thought of as "flavorings" are mental events/activities. ----------------------------------- > > P.P.P.S. I'm with you on your 'phenomenological' description of rupa > too. ------------------------------------ Howard: Hey! How about that! :-) ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59748 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed May 24, 2006 2:35pm Subject: Re: Reifying, onco111 Dear Howard, > Howard: > For the most part, I think they are operations as well. Even things > like distraction, anger, fear, and love, for example, which might be thought of > as "flavorings" are mental events/activities. Yup, I know what you mean. Can you put words on how you understand citta to differ from cetasika? Dan 59749 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 3:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... indriyabala Dear Han & Matheesaha - I also join Han to thank you, Matheesha, for the excellent sutta that warns us NOT to overlook the basic building blocks of the Teachings (right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds). >Han: > Yes, Nina, the sutta surely gives me a real sense of > urgency, now that my days are numbered. > Don't be sad , dear Han, death may come to visit anyone, young or old, with the same likelihood. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Matheesha and Nina (and Tep), > > Thank you very much, Matheesha, for sharing with me > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 Pabbatopama Sutta The Simile of > the Mountains, an excellent sutta, that gives a taste > of danger (ageing and death) from which we cannot > escape. We can only have steadfast and unshakeable > confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha; and conduct > right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds while > we are alive and still able to do so. > 59750 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 3:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... indriyabala Dear Han(& Matheesha, Nina, Sarah & Jon, Sukinder & other friends), I truly appreciate your presentation of why and how the contemplation of 'aadinana' (danger, drawback) plays a critical role in the development of 'nibbida nana'. This rich-in-content post of yours is even more satisfying than the previous edition (which was already a great presentation in its own right). >Han: >When the meditator has reached the stage of aadinava, because of the dangers which he sees in naama and ruupa he gets fed up with them. This stage is nibbidaa nana, the 7th position in ten vipassanaa nanas. The abhidhamma book interprets it as the knowledge of disgust in naama and ruupa as they are unsatisfactory. ... ... If the meditator does not see aadinava in the five aggregates, there will be no nibbidaa, and if he does not develop nibbidaa nana his progress will stop there. He will be very happy to go round and round in samsara. Tep: Does 'nibbidaa' arise by iself when conditions are right, without any meditaor's planned action or intention to develop it? If it does, then what are such 'right conditions' and do these conditions depend on 'accumulation' and other dhammas that are completely independent of the meditator's effort? Or CAN they be developed (by the meditator's effort, see samma-vayamo in DN 22 and MN 117) to arise (sooner or later)in the present life so that he may be able attain 'nibbidaa nana' in this very life? .................. >Han: >At first the Buddha spoke to him on generosity (daana), morality (siila), celestial states (sagga), the evils of sensual pleasures (kaamaadinava), the blessings of renunciation (nekkhammaanisamsa). When He found that his mind was pliable and was ready to appreciate the deeper teaching He taught the Four Noble Truths. Tep: In this story our Lord Buddha taught the millionaire's son, named Yasa, starting with generosity and morality. THEN He taught "the evils of sensual pleasures" and "the blessings of renunciation". Why did He NOT start with Satipatthana which (according to Nina, Sarah and Jon) includes "everything" such as siila, concentration and "understanding" and told Yasa to go back home to practice while contnue to enjoy sensualities? Comparing Yasa to most of us here at DSG, I don't think our dhamma maturity is any better than his; he had already realized the "vanities of worldly life" (while most of us still are addicted with the world and the worldly joys) even before his listening to the first lecture of the basic Teachings. So can I rightfully assume that it would be more practical & beneficial for us to begin our dhamma study with generosity and morality, and learn to see "the evils of sensual pleasures" and "the blessings of renunciation" before attempting Satipatthana & the Four Noble Truths? Of course, some "wise" persons will say that it depends on the "accumulation" and that Yasa already HAD the right accumulation to "condition" his citta to arise with "understanding" that saw the "vanities of worldly life". If so, then why did the Buddha start the teaching with daana & siila? Why did he not start with a teaching of Satipatthana and the Four Nobel Truths? Please don't be obligated to answer all of these questions. [I am mumbling to myself most of the time !] ............... >Han: >This six-step teaching: (1) daana kathaa, (2) siila kathaa, (3) sagga kathaa, (4) aadinava kathaa, (5) nekkhamma kathaa, and (6) ariya sacca kathaa, became the standard method of "gradual training" (anupubbi kathaa), the framework the Buddha used throughout his 45 years of teaching to guide new comers from the first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the realization of Nibbaana. Tep: Wait a minute, Han !! Didn't you make an error here ? {:-|> Shouldn't the first "step" be 'ariya sacca kathaa' (with right understanding as the forerunner)? Because without "right understanding" the "new comers" would still be infested with lobha (craving) and atta (self) and their wrong views would prevent them from seeing the path? More over, according to Nina and Sarah and Company here, isn't that description of the Buddha's Teaching, i.e. as step-wise, sequential approach, wrong view? {:-|>> >Han: > Then the Buddha said that even in the deva planes there are sensual gratifications which are fraud with dangers. And then the Buddha taught those dangers, the aadinava kathaa. Then the new comer would suddenly become frightened after learning the dangers. Then the Buddha said not to be afraid, and that there is the way out, and that way out is renunciation, and he taught the advantages of renunciation, the nikkhamma kathaa. Tep: I am 100% for this highly logical and effective "sequential teaching". [Sadhu ! x 3 ] Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep and Matheesha, > > Tep asked me to explain the critically important role > of the "sense of danger" in conditioning insight > knowledges. > > Dear Tep, by "sense of danger" do you mean "aadinava"? > If so, please read on. (snipped) > > That is the drawback or aadinava: > (1) inconstant (anicca) > (2) stressful (dukkha) > (3) subject to change (viparinaama) > > Therefore, aadinava means anicca, dukkha, and > viparinaama of conditioned things. > 59751 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 3:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Herman (and Nina) = > > In a message dated 5/23/06 9:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... quotes Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > Regretfully, though, because of my > > poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached any > > attainments worthy of a true practitioner. > > > ========================= > Right there he proves himself wrong! > Why do you think you know Bhikkhu Bodhi better than he knows himself? Regards, Tep ======= 59752 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 4:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... indriyabala Hi Tricky Herman, > Herman: > Would a "true Buddhist" identify themselves as a Buddhist? Would a "true Buddhist" say, I am this and not that? What does a "true Buddhist" identify with at all? > Tep: A truly true Buddhist (i.e. ariyan) identifies with no thing. I am only a true Buddhist, in my opinion of course. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hey Tep, > > > Allright then, I'll throw you another one :-) > 59753 From: han tun Date: Wed May 24, 2006 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Sense of Danger ... hantun1 Dear Friend Tep and others, (1) Tep: Does 'nibbidaa' arise by iself when conditions are right, without any meditaor's planned action or intention to develop it? If it does, then what are such 'right conditions' and do these conditions depend on 'accumulation' and other dhammas that are completely independent of the meditator's effort? Or CAN they be developed (by the meditator's effort, see samma-vayamo in DN 22 and MN 117) to arise (sooner or later) in the present life so that he may be able attain 'nibbidaa nana' in this very life? Han: Nibbidaa nana arises when the meditator directly sees the aadinava of naama and ruupa. This answer is from book knowledge. My personal experience is that I am still struggling with udayabbaya nana, the lowly second step of ten vipassanaa nanas. I am not sure whether I can attain nibbidaa nana in this life. As regards the “right conditions” and “accumulations” I do not know. I learned these terminologies only when I joined DSG. ------------------------------ (2) Tep: In this story our Lord Buddha taught the millionaire's son, named Yasa, starting with generosity and morality. THEN He taught "the evils of sensual pleasures" and "the blessings of renunciation". Why did He NOT start with Satipatthana which (according to Nina, Sarah and Jon) includes "everything" such as siila, concentration and "understanding" and told Yasa to go back home to practice while continue to enjoy sensualities? Comparing Yasa to most of us here at DSG, I don't think our dhamma maturity is any better than his; he had already realized the "vanities of worldly life" (while most of us still are addicted with the world and the worldly joys) even before his listening to the first lecture of the basic Teachings. So can I rightfully assume that it would be more practical & beneficial for us to begin our dhamma study with generosity and morality, and learn to see "the evils of sensual pleasures" and "the blessings of renunciation" before attempting Satipatthana & the Four Noble Truths? Of course, some "wise" persons will say that it depends on the "accumulation" and that Yasa already HAD the right accumulation to "condition" his citta to arise with "understanding" that saw the "vanities of worldly life". If so, then why did the Buddha start the teaching with daana & siila? Why did he not start with a teaching of Satipatthana and the Four Nobel Truths? Please don't be obligated to answer all of these questions. [I am mumbling to myself most of the time !] Han: Thank you very much for giving me the option that I am not obliged to answer all these questions, and that you are just mumbling to yourself. ------------------------------ (3) Tep: Wait a minute, Han!! Didn't you make an error here? {:-|> Shouldn't the first "step" be 'ariya sacca kathaa' (with right understanding as the forerunner)? Because without "right understanding" the "new comers" would still be infested with lobha (craving) and atta (self) and their wrong views would prevent them from seeing the path? More over, according to Nina and Sarah and Company here, isn't that description of the Buddha's Teaching, i.e. as step-wise, sequential approach, wrong view? {:-|>> Han: I am sorry I cannot answer that question also because I am not the Teacher who teaches these six steps. If you ask my personal progress I must admit that I am still trying to step onto the third and fourth steps, but not quite accomplished yet. Respectfully, your friend Han 59754 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 5:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How Do We Test if He/She Is an Arahant? ... Rest In Peace ... indriyabala Hi Han (and other members) - Thank you very much for being polite (and diplomatic) enough to avoid answering my mumbling questions/comments that may lead to less peace. But I hope Nina & Sarah & Company will prove me right, or wrong, so my confusion may "rest in peace" once and for all. Yours truly, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Friend Tep and others, > (snipped) > > Han: > I am sorry I cannot answer that question also because > I am not the Teacher who teaches these six steps. If > you ask my personal progress I must admit that I am > still trying to step onto the third and fourth steps, > but not quite accomplished yet. > 59755 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reifying, upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 5/24/06 5:40:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >Howard: > > For the most part, I think they are operations as well. Even > things > >like distraction, anger, fear, and love, for example, which might be > thought of > >as "flavorings" are mental events/activities. > > Yup, I know what you mean. Can you put words on how you understand > citta to differ from cetasika? > > Dan > > ========================= Citta, or as I prefer it, vi~n~nana, is the operation of merely being aware of content. That's all it is - the mere knowing of content. All the cetasikas are auxilliary to that, being specialized operations and activities. Vedana, for example, is affectively "tasting" the content. The term 'concomitant' seems pretty good to me. How do you see this? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59756 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/24/06 6:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Herman (and Nina) = > > > >In a message dated 5/23/06 9:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >hhofmeister@... quotes Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > >>Regretfully, though, because of my > >>poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not > reached any > >>attainments worthy of a true practitioner. > >> > >========================= > > Right there he proves himself wrong! > > > > Why do you think you know Bhikkhu Bodhi better than he knows himself? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Tep, my point was that as impressive a monk as he is, and as great a service he provides to the Dhamma, he is truly humble! Humility is an attainment that is most worthy of a true practitioner, an attainment more worthy, IMO, than specal powers or being able to achieve special states. ---------------------------------------- > > > Regards, > > > Tep > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59757 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. egberdina Hi Howard and Tep, On 25/05/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/24/06 6:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > > >Hi, Herman (and Nina) = > > > > > >In a message dated 5/23/06 9:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > >hhofmeister@... quotes Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > > > >>Regretfully, though, because of my > > >>poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not > > reached any > > >>attainments worthy of a true practitioner. > > >> > > >========================= > > > Right there he proves himself wrong! > > > > > > > Why do you think you know Bhikkhu Bodhi better than he knows himself? > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Tep, my point was that as impressive a monk as he is, and as great > a > service he provides to the Dhamma, he is truly humble! Humility is an > attainment that is most worthy of a true practitioner, an attainment more > worthy, IMO, > than specal powers or being able to achieve special states. I don't disagree about the value of humility, but I see neither humility or conceit or pride, or whatever the opposite of humility would be, in stating the bare facts of one's CV. Kind Regards Herman 59758 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Howard, This issue reflects a major difference between a humble worldling and a humble-and-true Buddhist monk. > Howard: > Tep, my point was that as impressive a monk as he is, and as great a service he provides to the Dhamma, he is truly humble! Humility is an attainment that is most worthy of a true practitioner, an attainment more worthy, IMO, than specal powers or being able to achieve special states. Tep: Your definition of humbleness seems to apply perfectly well to any lay-person who prefers social admiration over a truthful answer. A good monk would not sacrifice sila (here, not lying) to lying just to look humble. He said: "I have not reached any attainments worthy of a true practitioner.", and that does not leave any room for a social lying. His self-evaluation was possibly based on the perfect achievement of the "model monk" in the suttas. BTW you can be BOTH truthful and humble. There is no need to sacrifice one for the other. Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/24/06 6:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > > >Hi, Herman (and Nina) = > > > > > >In a message dated 5/23/06 9:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > >hhofmeister@ quotes Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > > > > >>Regretfully, though, because of my > > >>poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not > > reached any > > >>attainments worthy of a true practitioner. > > >> > > >========================= > > > Right there he proves himself wrong! > > > > > > > Why do you think you know Bhikkhu Bodhi better than he knows himself? > > ---------------------------------------- 59759 From: "indriyabala" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Herman, You wrote: > > I don't disagree about the value of humility, but I see neither humility or conceit or pride, or whatever the opposite of humility would be, in stating the bare facts of one's CV. > That is along the same line of reasoning I have. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Howard and Tep, > 59760 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. egberdina HiTep, Me here, being tricky again :-) > > > Tep: There are three kinds of craving: craving for sensuality, craving > for becoming, craving for non-becoming. I think craving for drugs is > based on sensuality for odors and for flavors. Therefore, it is > different from the craving for existence. But you may think that once > he is addicted, then his existence depends on the drug. But that's a > different issue, I guess. So, is the craving different, or is the object different? Kind Regards Herman 59761 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 3:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/24/06 9:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I don't disagree about the value of humility, but I see neither humility > or > conceit or pride, or whatever the opposite of humility would be, in stating > the bare facts of one's CV. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, neither do I, but I take "Regretfully, though, because of my poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached any attainments worthy of a true practitioner" to be not a stating of bare facts, but a very humble self-evaluation not unlike the Dalai Lama describing himself as "a simple Buddhist monk." ================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59762 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... egberdina Hi Scott, On 24/05/06, Scott Duncan wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > I take up the pen once more...(Without disappointment) Cool! On what is your satisfaction with the suttas based? I personally take > them on faith (I know, how gauche of me, but there you are) and I'll > assume you do as well. I suppose I take Abhidhamma on the same basis. My satisfaction with the suttas is based on exactly that; satisfaction. If I read a sutta and it fills me joy, delight, pleasure, ease, then I have read something that doesn't require faith, the proof was in the pudding. And it sets up the foundations for concentration and insight. H: "It is my reading of the Suttas that the Buddha empirically > discovered the principles based on which he could say that anything > that can be experienced is a mental product, but lending itself to the > illusion of self-existence, permanence, or desirability." > > And by "empirically" you mean what exactly? I'd ask you to be clear > here since you go on below to again discuss "positivism" and remain, > to this muddled reader, quite imprecise. Empirically, one discovers how the world isn't. Positively, one sets out to find how the world is. More about this at the end. > We need to read and quote > because it is not my understanding that a conditioned dhamma is > considered in any way to be self-existant, permanent, or desirable. > I'm leaving nibbaana out of that statement since of it I know less > than anything and I don't think it is exactly describable. That a > conditioned dhamma arises, is, and falls away completely seems > staight-forward and non-contradictory enough. Yes, I know what you mean. But when you go to find this dhamma, can you tell me any more than that it isn't there? H: "Anything that posits real, though momentary existence, is > irreconcilably at odds with the middle way of neither existing or > not-existing." > > Please explain this further. How do you understand "neither existing > or not-existing?" Is this some sort of sutta-code for nihilism? (Now > that was a bit harsh, wasn't it, sorry old man.) No it is fine. And it is not code for nihilism. It is code for dependent origination. > You write excellent > introductory sentences and then leave the reader dangling, which, > although good for ratings, is a bit hard on the nerves! If you want to know what I think, just ask. The more specific, the better :-) H: "...How, for instance, does one arrive at the notion that any > instance of anything was irreducible? Taking an illusion to establish > the reality of another illusion is poor practice. The whole positivist > enterprise is to establish the reality of the present moment, while > everything the Buddha said to those inclined to hear it was to uproot > the very mind that creates the illusion of existence." > > Okay. Positivism as I understand it is opposed to metaphysical and > theoretical explanations, favouring instead the observable and the > factual, the empirically verifiable. If the Buddha was the empiricist > you say he was, and I don't disagree, then how was he not a > positivist? Please tell me in what sense you are using the term > positivist to knock the abhidhamma method of explanation. Forgive my > ignorance (or if its you, I'll be forgiving as well). Lets get this > aspect cleared up first before we go on to discuss the illusory this > and that, shall we? The Buddha, who mastered the jhanas and cessation as though they were a yo-yo, does not enumerate different lists of categories like nama/rupa, dhatus, khandas because they are ultimately real. He enumerates them because they demonstrate what is not real, in this case the "I" of me, mine, self. That is empiricisim in optima forma. We discover reality negatively, by finding out what isn't real. The intention for enumerating dhammas is for cessation, as in the case of Bahiya and Pukkusati, both killed by bovines after a short, enlightening instruction on not-self by the Buddha, using dhatus and senses to demonstrate not-self. Empirically, the Buddha, after having extinguished the mind, said that the world is empty of what is not there. The world is not full of what is there, it is empty of what isn't. That is the difference between positivism and empiricism. The Dhamma theory as put forward in the Abhidhamma has a different motivation. It is the pursuit of knowledge, for the sake of having and keeping knowledge. It sets out to find out what the world is like (positivism). And indeed, it finds what it sets out to do. It finds ultimate, irreducible existents. But there is no release in it. Because irreducibilty is meaningless. And what's more, how can an ultimate existent be known as an instance of a category? Only if the category pre-exists the instance, which makes the instance neither ultimate or irreducible. Dhamma theory, in its upshot, is no different to Plato and his idealist universals. Before you ask me to clarify myself some more :-), if you feel inclined to defend the notion of irreducibilty, and how that can be known, please feel free to do so :-) Well, enough for now, Herman my man. Later! Amen to that! Kind Regards Herman 59763 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/24/06 10:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > This issue reflects a major difference between a humble worldling and > a humble-and-true Buddhist monk. > > >Howard: > > Tep, my point was that as impressive a monk as he is, and as > great a service he provides to the Dhamma, he is truly humble! > Humility is an attainment that is most worthy of a true practitioner, > an attainment more worthy, IMO, than specal powers or being able to > achieve special states. > > Tep: Your definition of humbleness seems to apply perfectly well to > any lay-person who prefers social admiration over a truthful answer. A > good monk would not sacrifice sila (here, not lying) to lying just to > look humble. He said: "I have not reached any attainments worthy of a > true practitioner.", and that does not leave any room for a social lying. > > His self-evaluation was possibly based on the perfect achievement of > the "model monk" in the suttas. BTW you can be BOTH truthful and > humble. There is no need to sacrifice one for the other. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > ======================== Why in the world you would take a modest self-evaluation to be an instance of lying, social or otherwise, is beyond me. I don't for a second think he is lying one iota! I think he is genuiely humble and expects more of himself, and I think that makes him an unusual and admirable person. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59764 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 7:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. egberdina Hi Howard (and Nina), On 25/05/06, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 5/24/06 9:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > I don't disagree about the value of humility, but I see neither > humility > > or > > conceit or pride, or whatever the opposite of humility would be, in > stating > > the bare facts of one's CV. > > > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, neither do I, but I take "Regretfully, though, because of my > poor merits and the debilitating headache condition, I have not reached > any > attainments worthy of a true practitioner" to be not a stating of bare > facts, but > a very humble self-evaluation not unlike the Dalai Lama describing himself > as > "a simple Buddhist monk." Nina spoke of B. Bodhi as a meditation master. Is he really a mediation master, but being humble about it? I hate having to read between the lines :-) Kind Regards Herman 59765 From: "Leo" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 9:24pm Subject: park with trees leoaive Hi I was reading recently about trees of different Buddhas and then history of Sri Lanka where one person was holding a tree. I would really like to see a park with all Buddhas trees, that is mentioned in Buddhavamsa. If you know anything about existance of such park, please let me know. With Metta Leo 59766 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 24, 2006 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/24/06 10:49:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Nina spoke of B. Bodhi as a meditation master. Is he really a mediation > master, but being humble about it? > > ========================== I don't know what makes one a meditation master. That could mean one is a great teacher of meditation - a skillful teacher, or it could mean that one has mastered the jhanas, or it could mean something else. Has HE claimed to be a meditation master? I have only heard of him as a great scholar, a great teacher, and a devoted monk. I take Bhikkhu Bodhi at his word when he evaluates himself as not having reached any attainments worthy of a true practitioner . I have no reason to think of this man as a liar or as a poseur. I believe, on the contrary, that he is truthful, and that whatever his achievements may be, he sets his sights much higher for himself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59767 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 24, 2006 11:01pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 455- Non-Attachment/Alobha (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd ***** If we come to know more precisely the citta arising at the present moment we will be able to notice that the moments of clinging are entirely different from the moments of unselfishness or detachment. There is non-attachment with each kusala citta, but it does not last. There are many more akusala cittas in our life than kusala cittas. •***** Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== 59768 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 25, 2006 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(n) sarahprocter... Dear Han. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you very much for your kind words. .... S: Likewise. I think the 'tanhaa' given in Ledi Sayadaw's text for faithlessness (opposite of saddha) must be a typo, don't you? In the Atthasalini it gives: "assaddhiye na kampatii ti sadhaabala.m' (It (saddhaa) does not waver on account of unbelief - this is 'strength of faith'. Metta, Sarah ======= 59769 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 25, 2006 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I agreed with most of what you wrote here, but.. (always a but...): --- upasaka@... wrote: >This is the > grossest > form of dukkha, and in the Buddha's teaching career it is how he began > his > portrayal of dukkha. Recall that his first words on dukkha were "Birth > is > suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is > suffering, sorrow and > lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the > > loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to > get what > one wants is suffering ... ." .... S: 'In short (or summary), the 5 khandhas of clinging are dukkha' I don't believe the 1st Noble Truth is just pointing to the 'grossest form of dukkha'. .... >Also, and I think this is an important > point, > people so eagerly avoid facing what is unpleasant that the moment > difficulties let > up they tend to allow themselves to forget even the most extreme > suffering > they have gone through and then require reminding. ... S: I'm not convinced that such reminding will bring them any closer to understanding dhammas. Usually, it just reminds them (with dosa) of their terrible experiences, instead of letting go the past. .... > Where I do agree with you is that dukkha in its most subtle form > and > the intrinsic unsatisfactoriness of all conditions both need to be seen > directly and clearly before liberation is possible. Recognizing only the > grossest form > of dukkha - call it "conventional suffering" - is but a goad towards a > spiritual path. .... S: It can be a goad. Many other things one sees, hears or experiences can be a goad too. The main goad is the reading/hearing/listening/considering/reflecting on what is the truth at the present moment. Metta, Sarah ========= 59770 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 25, 2006 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Did you notice this is a dear sarah post, not a hi sarah post? I bet > you're > thinking, oh gawd what next :-) Nothing sinister, just an expression of > my > gratitude of how you tailor your posts to suit the proclivities of > whoever > you are posting to. .... S: You'll see that I'm sticking to thinking of you as a 'hi proclivity person'. Very touching comments from a non-anumodana man:-). .... > I could basically copy and paste Howard's reply to you and put my name > under > it, which is often the case, because he states his case well, and I > agree > with it and him. .... S: I just went back to check (and reply) to Howard's. I mostly agreed.... ... > > But I just want to add a little comment, based on personal experience. > Perhaps others will find it to be the same, or otherwise, which I would > be > very interested to hear about. At any point of time it is possible to > put > awareness anywhere in the body, god willing. My finding is , that at any > point of time, it is possible to find varying degrees of pleasure and > pain > all around the body. It seems to me, that the default location of bodily > awareness is not centred on pain, even though it would be possible to > make > it so. It is possible to read into your comments that having a default > mildly pleasant body awareness is a form of clinging. Is that implied ? >.... S: I don't think I mentioned anything about body awareness. What I said was that 'for most people, even when experiencing extreme hardship, there is still some clinging to pleasent experiences and an idea that this is the way out.' I think the pleasant experiences we crave and cling to are through all the senses - not just pleasant bodily experiences. Also, I don't wish to get into Abhidhamma-techno-speak with you, Herman, but I think we need to distinguish here the rupas experienced through the body-sense and the pleasant and unpleasant feelings which experience them. When there is 'mildly pleasant body awareness', it is not pleasure in the body, but in the mind. It's a nama which experiences the tangible object. This is usually followed by clinging, just as unpleasant bodily feeling (also a nama) is usually followed by aversion. Very natural when there's no awareness or guarding of the sense doors. Isn't the aversion caused by the clinging to pleasant experiences. Herman, I'm not at all sure I'm speaking your language here. I think we're on different tracks on this one and an example of how I'm often unable to tailor what I say to the various proclivities. Perhaps you can help me out....:-/ Metta, Sarah ======== 59771 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 25, 2006 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding dhammas, understanding realities/'realities' sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- indriyabala wrote: > >S: > > Firstly, please don't think you're 'barking at the wrong tree'.. > > T: I should have written "barking up the wrong tree" instead of > "barking at the wrong tree". This is my language problem! .... S: That was a funny one - thanks for clarifying that I wasn't 'the wrong tree' you were barking at:-). .... > 1. My questions on sound, sankhara and citta are not exactly based on > the same terms that are familiar to you. [S: I wouldn't say that citta > is ever 'mixed or contaminated with cetasikas'.] So the essence of my > questions was lost. ... S: Pls ask again with a little clarification of your terms if you can be bothered. .... > > 2. My question on "why" other namas besides the citta can experience > an object. [S: The way it is! Let's take seeing consciousness again (a > citta). It needs the support of phassa, ekaggata, sanna, vedana, > manasikara, cetana and jivitindriya to perform its function of > experiencing visible object. Without contact and the rest, there'd be > no conditions for any experience.] The essence is about "experience", > the manner which other namas "experience" an object, and why they can > perform such special function that is supposed to pertain only to the > citta. ..... S: I don't think the 'special function' of experience is 'supposed to pertain only to the citta'. I haven't read that. Citta is the chief in experiencing an object, but it cannot experience without supports as I tried to indicate. Just to take the first one above, phassa -- we read over and over again in the suttas about when there is visible object, eye-base and contact, there is eye-consciousness etc. No phassa, no citta. .... > 3. My question on "why" the citta as well as the other namas can > experience one and only one object "at a time". [S: Again, the way it > is! Back to seeing - at that moment, no object other than visible > object can be experienced. To take a simple example, sound or tangible > objects for example cannot be experienced by seeing consciousness.] In > real life (not in theory), the way it is, I can hear several sounds > while seeing several objects at the same time. A simple example is > 'watching a movie': I can eat popcorns at the same time while > simultaneously enjoying the sight, the sounds, and the popcorn's taste. .... S: Others have responded further on this - Kel and Nina, I think. I agree with you that it *seems* the way you suggest. This is why I think the Buddha's teachings go against the stream -- go against our usual way of thinking with ignorance. ... > It was not anybody's fault that we had the communication difficulties. > I believe they are due to our different perspectives. Mine is on > communication's simplicity which lacks semantic accuracy that you are > expecting. Yours is on the the English and Abhidhamma languages. Now > imagine what might have happened, if I also brought in some sutta > quotes. {:-)) .... S: Please do:-) I'm always delighted when you add sutta passages from your great sutta repertoire. Tep, I assure you that I'm not expecting 'semantic accuracy' or anything in particular. We all have our own styles which makes it so enjoyable to try and sort out these communication difficulties you refer to. As I said, I thought these were good and important questions. I'm happy to persevere if you are. Metta, Sarah ======== 59772 From: Daniel Date: Thu May 25, 2006 1:30am Subject: Authority daniell@... Hi all, Can I ask a silly question? Now, there is lot of disagreement on philosophical issues in the world. But let's imagine a case in which all of the world's really-really-really-smart people would agree on a certain doctrine, for example, Hinduism. Now, were I to think "perhaps Buddhism seems to make more sense to me, but those people are smarter than I am. Their reasoning is better. Therefore, if I rely on myself, it is not wise, because I am relying on a not-such-wise person. If I rely on other's and take Hinduism to be true, then it will actually be a wiser choice" - would there be any problem with such reasoning? If so, can you show me exactly where, in which part of the reasoning I am making the mistake? Yours, Daniel 59773 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 24, 2006 10:57pm Subject: Feeding the Hindrances ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is Food for the Mental Hindrances (Nivarana)? At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said: Just as this body, is sustained by food, is dependent on food, & cannot continue without food, even so, friends, are the five mental hindrances indeed also sustained by a kind of food, they are also dependent on sustaining nutriment, & cannot continue without ever renewed feeding… And what, friends, is feeding the arising of yet unarisen Sense-Desire and feeding the growth and increase of already arisen Sense-Desire ??? It is frequent, careless & irrational attention to the Alluring & Attractive Feature of things! This food makes absent sensual lust arise and feeds too the growth of already present greed… And what, friends, is feeding the arising of yet unarisen Evil-Will and feeding the aggravation and increase of already arisen Evil-Will ??? It is frequent, careless & irrational attention to the Displeasing & Repulsive Feature of things! This is food makes absent aversion arise and feeds too the growth of already present anger… And what, friends, is feeding the arising of yet unarisen Lethargy and Laziness and feeding too of the deterioration and increase of already present Lethargy and Laziness ??? It is frequent, careless & irrational attention to Apathy, Drowsiness, & eat too much Dullness! This is food makes absent sloth arise and feeds too the worsening of already present Laziness… And what, friends, is feeding the arising of yet unarisen Restlessness and Regret and feeding too for the growth and escalation of already present Restlessness and Regret ??? It is frequent, careless & irrational attention to the Non-Tranquil, Agitated and Stressed Mind! This food upsets & stirs the mind and feeds also the intensity of already arisen anxiety & worry… And what, friends, is feeding the arising of yet unarisen Doubt and Uncertainty and feeding too for the expansion and proliferation of already present Doubt and Uncertainty ??? It is frequent, careless & irrational attention to Doubtful Theories, and Speculative Views! This food bewilders the mind and feeds also the escalation of already present perplexed confusion… Just as this body, is supported by food, is dependent on food, & cannot go on without food, exactly & even so, friends, are these Five Mental Hindrances supported by feeding, dependent on feeding, and they cannot persist without this continual mental feeding by wrongly directed attention… On how to prevent the mental hindrances see: http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.3-4.htm and Explanatory comments on: http://www.what-buddha-said.org/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.3-4c.htm Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:64-5] section 46: The Links. 2: The Body... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> 59774 From: han tun Date: Thu May 25, 2006 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- Moral Shame & Fear of Blame/hiri & ottappa(n) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I was also surprised when I read it for the first time. But it was not typo. Please read the following extract from Bodhipakkhiya Dipani under sub-heading of “The Five Bala”. ------------------------------ Bala is defined: Patipakkha dhamme baliyantiti balani.[110] (Suppresses opposition. Hence called bala.) The Pali Texts say: Akampanatthena balani.[111] (Whenever opposition is encountered, there is fearless firmness. Hence called bala.) As in the case of the indriya, there are five bala: saddha viriya sati samadhi panna. They are five generals or five commanders for the purpose of destroying the kingdom of sakkaya-ditthi (personality-belief). They are the five strengths that serve as reliance for bhikkhus and layfolk in the Buddha Sasana. As in the case of saddhindriya, saddha is of two kinds: 1. pakati-saddha 2. bhavana-saddha. Pakati-saddha which has no development through specific practice, associates with tanha according to circumstances, and can thus produce only the pakati-kusala-kamma of dana, sila, etc. It cannot overcome tanha with strength. On the other hand, tanha keeps pakati-saddha under its power. This is how tanha keeps pakati-saddha under its power. The Pali Texts mention (as clearly as exist the sun and moon in the heavens) four ariya-vamsa-dhamma.[112] They are: 1. being easily satisfied with food 2. being easily satisfied with clothing 3. being easily satisfied with dwelling place 4. inding pleasure and enjoyment in the work of bhavana. They constitute the realm of saddha. In the present-day world, this great kingdom of saddha lies hidden and submerged. Today, beings take pleasure and enjoyment in material things (paccayamisa); they take pleasure and enjoyment in worldly rank, dignity, and honour (lokamisa); they take pleasure and enjoyment in the attainment of the pleasant life, in worldly riches and in power and dominion (vattamisa); and thus is the great kingdom of tanha established as clearly as the great ocean round the island. This shows the weakness of pakati-saddha in this world. It is bhavana-saddha, which has its genesis in the successful practice of kayagata-sati, such as out-breath and in-breath until the disappearance of the dissettlement and distraction of the mind, that can dispel tanha which takes pleasure and enjoyment in the three kinds of amisa. It is this bhavana-saddha that can save bhikkhus and layfolk, who are in the course of being drowned and submerged in the ocean of the three tanha, and enable them to reach the island haven of the kingdom of saddha consisting of the four ariyavamsa-dhamma. In the matter of the bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma, it is this saddha that should be acquired. ------------------------------ For full text please click on the following link. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6f.htm I also checked it with the original Burmese version. The English translation was correct. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: I think the 'tanhaa' given in Ledi > Sayadaw's text for > faithlessness (opposite of saddha) must be a typo, > don't you? In the > Atthasalini it gives: > > "assaddhiye na kampatii ti sadhaabala.m' (It > (saddhaa) does not waver on > account of unbelief - this is 'strength of faith'. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > 59775 From: han tun Date: Thu May 25, 2006 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- "Correction" hantun1 (Correction) Dear Sarah This time it was my typo. Please correct No. 4 in the list below: ------------------------------ This is how tanha keeps pakati-saddha under its power. The Pali Texts mention (as clearly as exist the sun and moon in the heavens) four ariya-vamsa-dhamma.[112] They are: 1. being easily satisfied with food 2. being easily satisfied with clothing 3. being easily satisfied with dwelling place 4. inding pleasure and enjoyment in the work of bhavana. ------------------------------ No. 4 should read: 4. finding pleasure and enjoyment in the work of bhavana. Respectfully, Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I was also surprised when I read it for the first > time. > But it was not typo. > Please read the following extract from Bodhipakkhiya > Dipani under sub-heading of “The Five Bala”. 59776 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta egberdina Hi Sarah and anyone else if Sarah is too busy, > Also, I don't wish to get into Abhidhamma-techno-speak with you, Herman, > but I think we need to distinguish here the rupas experienced through the > body-sense and the pleasant and unpleasant feelings which experience them. > When there is 'mildly pleasant body awareness', it is not pleasure in the > body, but in the mind. It's a nama which experiences the tangible object. > This is usually followed by clinging, just as unpleasant bodily feeling > (also a nama) is usually followed by aversion. Very natural when there's > no awareness or guarding of the sense doors. Isn't the aversion caused by > the clinging to pleasant experiences. Actually, I would like it if you did some Abhidhamma speak. I have looked at useful posts under pain, vedana, bodily feeling and under vipaka, and am totally lost as to what is being maintained. With regards to physical pain, where does vipaka come into it, according to the theory? And how are vedana and vipaka linked, if at all? Kind Regards Herman 59777 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala Hi Double-tricky Herman, > So, is the craving different, or is the object different? Neither. It is the issue that's different. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > HiTep, > > Me here, being tricky again :-) > > > > > > > Tep: There are three kinds of craving: craving for sensuality, craving > > for becoming, craving for non-becoming. I think craving for drugs is > > based on sensuality for odors and for flavors. Therefore, it is > > different from the craving for existence. But you may think that once > > he is addicted, then his existence depends on the drug. But that's a > > different issue, I guess. > > 59778 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Howard - Herman has never complained to me about having to "read between the lines" of my message. I don't understand why you have such a problem! {:-|>> >Howard: Why in the world you would take a modest self-evaluation to >be an instance of lying, social or otherwise, is beyond me. I don't >for a second think he is lying one iota! I think he is genuiely >humble and expects more of himself, and I think that makes him an >unusual and admirable person. > Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > ... ... > > > > Tep: Your definition of humbleness seems to apply perfectly well to > > any lay-person who prefers social admiration over a truthful answer. A > > good monk would not sacrifice sila (here, not lying) to lying just to > > look humble. He said: "I have not reached any attainments worthy of a > > true practitioner.", and that does not leave any room for a social lying. > > > > His self-evaluation was possibly based on the perfect achievement of > > the "model monk" in the suttas. BTW you can be BOTH truthful and > > humble. There is no need to sacrifice one for the other. > > 59779 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Authority egberdina Hi Daniel, Intersting questions to ponder. On 25/05/06, Daniel wrote: > > Hi all, > > Can I ask a silly question? > > > Now, there is lot of disagreement on philosophical > issues in > the world. But let's imagine a case in which all of the world's > really-really-really-smart people would agree on a certain doctrine, for > example, Hinduism. > > Now, were I to think "perhaps Buddhism seems to make more sense to > me, > but those people are smarter than I am. Their reasoning is better. > Therefore, > if I rely on myself, it is not wise, because I am relying on a > not-such-wise > person. If I rely on other's and take Hinduism to be true, then it will > actually be a wiser choice" - would there be any problem with such > reasoning? > If so, can you show me exactly where, in which part of the reasoning I am > making the mistake? A question I always ask myself when people hold a doctrine is "Why do they hold that doctrine?". What are the goals of those people, and how does the doctrine fit in with their goals? If you want to achieve something, and people who hold a certain doctrine all achieve that selfsame goal, I'd say you would do well to assume that doctrine. On the other hand, if you want to achieve something, and many people say they also want to achieve that, and all claim that a certain doctrine will get them there, but there is no sign of that, you would do well to avoid that doctrine like the plague. So the question becomes, what do you want to achieve? Then find someone who has achieved that. Check them out thoroughly, and if they pass muster, ask them if they will teach you everything they know. You might have to become their slave, or something, but, hey, it's gotta be worth it :-) Kind Regards Herman 59780 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. egberdina Hi Tep, Me tricky? Surely your last answer takes the prize :-) On 25/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > Hi Double-tricky Herman, > > > So, is the craving different, or is the object different? > > Neither. It is the issue that's different. Is the craving for existence a different quality of craving than the craving for sensuality, or is the difference only in the object of craving? Kind Regards Herman 59781 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thank you for your good reply. I think we are getting closer and closer to starting to discuss something. I'm rather thick and you seem to play your cards close to your chest. H: "My satisfaction with the suttas is based on exactly that; satisfaction. If I read a sutta and it fills me joy, delight, pleasure, ease, then I have read something that doesn't require faith, the proof was in the pudding. And it sets up the foundations for concentration and insight." This is helpful to me in understanding where you are coming from. You value experience and seem to respond to truth in an emotional way. This is, for you, the "proof" in your empiricism. I think this is what it is: knowledge is derived from experience. Is this the sense in which you are using the term "empirical?" H: "Empirically, one discovers how the world isn't. Positively, one sets out to find how the world is." Are you confusing method and result? "How the world is" and "how the world isn't" - all the same in the end. Is and isn't are just two sides of the same coin aren't they? Nibbaana, for example, is described mostly in terms of what it is not, and yet one has to still affirm that Nibbaana "is," that is has reality. What is the discovery when, upon reading a sutta, you experience a filling of joy? What is this moment? It is not a nothing. It is a something. It wasn't there and then it is there, and soon it is gone. With the experience as focus you seem to then find yourself able to assert the truth of a given sutta and go beyond "faith" in your experience of the sutta. H: "Yes, I know what you mean. But when you go to find this dhamma, can you tell me any more than that it isn't there?" What does this actually prove? You are using a literary device here I realise, but do you actually misunderstand dhamma theory to suggest that there are "old" dhammas in a warehouse somewhere, to be found by looking at the labels on the shelves? Of course this is not the case. H: "No it is fine. And it is not code for nihilism. It is code for dependent origination." We could look at DO from a sutta and an abhidhamma perspective to compare and contrast if you wish. H: "The Buddha...does not enumerate different lists of categories like nama/rupa, dhatus, khandas because they are ultimately real. He enumerates them because they demonstrate what is not real, in this case the "I" of me, mine, self." The self is a concept. It is not real in this sense, in my opinion. I can't yet agree with your premise here. You are equating "self", its conceptual nature, and subsequent lack of reality, with naama/ruupa, dhatus, etc. and then stating that these have no reality as if they are synonymous with the concept "self." This is in error, in my opinion. I understand the Buddha to have taught that the self is *nothing but* naama/ruupa, dhatus, khandas, etc. and that there is no self in any of these. Again, I am saying that I think you are considering naama/ruupa, dhatus, etc. to be as conceptual as "self," and this is a misunderstanding. H: "That is empiricisim in optima forma. We discover reality negatively, by finding out what isn't real. The intention for enumerating dhammas is for cessation...Empirically, the Buddha, after having extinguished the mind, said that the world is empty of what is not there. The world is not full of what is there, it is empty of what isn't." Do you mean, by empty, su~n~nataa? Please explain. You seem to keep saying that there is nothing rather than that existents are devoid of self. H: "That is the difference between positivism and empiricism." I'm running out of response time here, I'll have to come back to this later. It matters less than some of the other points, but one of us is using these terms idiosyncratically. H: "The Dhamma theory as put forward in the Abhidhamma has a different motivation. It is the pursuit of knowledge, for the sake of having and keeping knowledge. It sets out to find out what the world is like (positivism). And indeed, it finds what it sets out to do. It findsultimate, irreducible existents. But there is no release in it. Because irreducibilty is meaningless. And what's more, how can an ultimate existent be known as an instance of a category? Only if the category pre-exists the instance, which makes the instance neither ultimate or irreducible. Dhamma theory, in its upshot, is no different to Plato and his idealist universals." More to come. I just don't agree with you. What do you mean to be discussing the "motivation" of dhamma theory as if it were some sort of conspiracy? I'm sorry, but I think you are just grinding an axe. H: "Before you ask me to clarify myself some more: if you feel inclined to defend the notion of irreducibilty, and how that can be known, please feel free to do so." I do, later, but I don't think we've done with preliminaries. We aren't using terms in the same way and have to iron this out before we can discuss this latter in a way that can be productive. Sincerely, Scott. 59782 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 6:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. indriyabala Hi Herman, Thank you for the prize (that qualifies me as a tricky person too?). > > Herman: > Is the craving for existence a different quality of craving than the >craving for sensuality, or is the difference only in the object of >craving? > Thank you 0.75 times for not giving me trouble to have to read your message "between the lines". To ask if the three kinds of cravings are different in the object is similar to asking the naive question : "Are all kinds of roses different in their colors and forms?". Of course, they are -- and more. "The most popular roses sold and the ones that have the most name recognition in the modern rose class are the hybrid tea, floribunda, and grandiflora." http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/roses/kinds/k-modern.html Visit the link and see pictures of them beautiful roses. Sincerely, Tep {:-|>> ======== == --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Me tricky? Surely your last answer takes the prize :-) > > On 25/05/06, indriyabala wrote: > > > > > > Hi Double-tricky Herman, > > > > > So, is the craving different, or is the object different? > > > > Neither. It is the issue that's different. > 59783 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 25, 2006 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/25/06 3:59:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I agreed with most of what you wrote here, but.. (always a but...): > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >This is the > >grossest > >form of dukkha, and in the Buddha's teaching career it is how he began > >his > >portrayal of dukkha. Recall that his first words on dukkha were "Birth > >is > >suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is > >suffering, sorrow and > >lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the > > > >loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to > >get what > >one wants is suffering ... ." > .... > S: 'In short (or summary), the 5 khandhas of clinging are dukkha' I don't > believe the 1st Noble Truth is just pointing to the 'grossest form of > dukkha'. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I completely agree with you, Sarah. I, however, was pointing to that part of it, the more superficial, conventional aspects, because that was the context of the discusiion and my reply. -------------------------------------------- > .... > >Also, and I think this is an important > >point, > >people so eagerly avoid facing what is unpleasant that the moment > >difficulties let > >up they tend to allow themselves to forget even the most extreme > >suffering > >they have gone through and then require reminding. > ... > S: I'm not convinced that such reminding will bring them any closer to > understanding dhammas. Usually, it just reminds them (with dosa) of their > terrible experiences, instead of letting go the past. -------------------------------------------- Howard: We do disagree here. I think that rapid "forgetting" of dukkha is extremely common, and means to avoid that are important. ---------------------------------------------- > .... > > Where I do agree with you is that dukkha in its most subtle form > >and > >the intrinsic unsatisfactoriness of all conditions both need to be seen > >directly and clearly before liberation is possible. Recognizing only the > >grossest form > > of dukkha - call it "conventional suffering" - is but a goad towards a > >spiritual path. > .... > S: It can be a goad. Many other things one sees, hears or experiences can > be a goad too. The main goad is the > reading/hearing/listening/considering/reflecting on what is the truth at > the present moment. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59784 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 25, 2006 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Herman) - In a message dated 5/25/06 8:39:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard - > > Herman has never complained to me about having to "read between the > lines" of my message. I don't understand why you have such a problem! > {:-|>> ---------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps I'm being dense, Tep. You may need to spell this all out for me. ----------------------------------------- > > >Howard: Why in the world you would take a modest self-evaluation to > >be an instance of lying, social or otherwise, is beyond me. I don't > >for a second think he is lying one iota! I think he is genuiely > >humble and expects more of himself, and I think that makes him an > >unusual and admirable person. > > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Tep - > >... ... > >> > >>Tep: Your definition of humbleness seems to apply perfectly well to > >>any lay-person who prefers social admiration over a truthful answer. A > >>good monk would not sacrifice sila (here, not lying) to lying just to > >>look humble. He said: "I have not reached any attainments worthy of a > >>true practitioner.", and that does not leave any room for a social > lying. > >> > >>His self-evaluation was possibly based on the perfect achievement of > >>the "model monk" in the suttas. BTW you can be BOTH truthful and > >>humble. There is no need to sacrifice one for the other. > >> > > ============================= I had somehow missed your writing "His self-evaluation was possibly based on the perfect achievement of the "model monk" in the suttas. BTW you can be BOTH truthful and humble. There is no need to sacrifice one for the other." This is exactly *my* position! I think that Bhikkhu Bodhi was being both honest and humble! Evidently we agree on this! I apologize for somehow having completely missed your position. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59785 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 25, 2006 7:35am Subject: metta 17 nilovg Dear friends, This is taken from Kh. Sujin's book on Metta. If people believe in a person who could retaliate, how is their relationship to such a person? If they think that there is a person who could take revenge then they themselves could also be someone who takes revenge on another person. However, when someone has no ill feeling towards others could he take revenge and cause someone else's misfortune? We may remember ill deeds in this life which we have committed to someone else and ill deeds which others have committed to us, but we do not remember the deeds which were committed in past lives. We would not be able to remember to whom we did wrong ourselves, nor would others be able to remember such things. Thus the belief in someone who could take revenge for the wrongs a person formerly did to him and who could cause his misfortune in this life is without foundation. The transfer of merit to such a person is also useless, it does not have any effect. Every being has performed many kammas during countless aeons in the past. People are born and they must die, they are born again and must die again, and thus they are now no longer the same person they were in the past. We should not think of a person in the past who could take revenge, but instead we should remember that in this life one should have no anger, no revengeful feeling, no wish to harm or hurt anyone. People may have aversion or anger or they may even want to hurt someone else when they think that he in this life or in a former life caused them misfortune or suffering. However, one should subdue one's anger and feelings of revenge and not commit any deed motivated by anger. Instead, one should develop mettå and make it increase. ******* Nina. 59786 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 25, 2006 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- oppoosite of saddhaa. nilovg Dear Han, I have the hardcover. It was first written in Pali, then transl into Burmese, and then into English. The translator took great pains, it was a difficult task. That is why some expressions may be confusing for us. I mention them. op 25-05-2006 12:08 schreef han tun op hantun1@...: > As in the case of saddhindriya, saddha is of two > kinds: > > 1. pakati-saddha > 2. bhavana-saddha. > > Pakati-saddha which has no development through > specific practice, associates with tanha according to > circumstances, ------- When I hear the word associate, I think of sampayutta, arising with citta rooted in lobha at the same time. But this is not meant like this, it is not possible. < associates with tanha>: I think he means often alternated with tanhaa. Or, tanhaa arises on account of one's good deeds with saddhaa. One may cling to saddhaa, it often happens. And the expression that tanhaa is the opposite of saddhaa: it is the enemy of saddhaa. I read in the Co. to the Cariyaapitaka that lobha is the opposite or enemy of all the perfections. Clinging hinders the development of all good qualities. I think he saw it from this point of view. Nina. 59787 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 7:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Howard, > Howard: > Perhaps I'm being dense, Tep. You may need to spell this all out for me. > ----------------------------------------- Tep: I don't mind spending a little more effort to spell it out in black & white. A true Buddhist monk like Bhikkhu Bodhi aims at achieving & maintaining right speech ["The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble,..." ] among other virtues he strives for. A monk like this would adhere to the right speech "that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path". Thus, there is no room for even a slight deviation from the truth, let alone those "social speeches" which aim at showing humbleness. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 5/25/06 8:39:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > Hi Howard - > > > > Herman has never complained to me about having to "read between > >the lines" of my message. I don't understand why you have such a problem! > > {:-|>> > > ---------------------------------------- 59788 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 25, 2006 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/25/06 10:40:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > > >Howard: > > Perhaps I'm being dense, Tep. You may need to spell this all > out for me. > >----------------------------------------- > Tep: > I don't mind spending a little more effort to spell it out in black & > white. > A true Buddhist monk like Bhikkhu Bodhi aims at achieving & > maintaining right speech ["The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, > avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct in one developing the > noble path whose mind is noble,..." ] among other virtues he strives > for. A monk like this would adhere to the right speech "that is > without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path". Thus, > there is no room for even a slight deviation from the truth, let alone > those "social speeches" which aim at showing humbleness. --------------------------------------- Howard: But there is the whole point, Tep! I didn't presume a "social speech" faking humility. I assumed that Bhikkhu Bodhi was giving a completely honest self-evaluation that was free of any conceit, and I view that as indicating a humble person! What the heck are we arguing about!? --------------------------------------- > > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59789 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 9:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Howard, >Howard: > But there is the whole point, Tep! I didn't presume a "social >speech" faking humility. I assumed that Bhikkhu Bodhi was giving a >completely honest self-evaluation that was free of any conceit, and I >view that as indicating a humble person! What the heck are we arguing >about!? --------------------------------------- Tep: It is very simple, the way I see it, Howard. The silly heck of the argument started with your interpretation of the truthful statement of the monk (who admitted with regret that he had not reached any attainment 'worthy of a true practitioner') as proving himself wrong (see # 59719). So I asked why you thought you knew him better than he knew himself, 'cause I knew he was speaking truthfully about himself. So how could he be wrong? If he knew he was better than what his sppeech displayed him, then wouldn't that mean he lied in order to look humble? The world of ordinary people is full of twists and turns indeed. Let's end the useless argument here. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/25/06 10:40:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > indriyabala@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > > > > > >Howard: > > > Perhaps I'm being dense, Tep. You may need to spell this all > > out for me. > > >----------------------------------------- > > Tep: > > I don't mind spending a little more effort to spell it out in black & > > white. > > A true Buddhist monk like Bhikkhu Bodhi aims at achieving & > > maintaining right speech ["The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, > > avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct in one developing the > > noble path whose mind is noble,..." ] among other virtues he strives > > for. A monk like this would adhere to the right speech "that is > > without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path". Thus, > > there is no room for even a slight deviation from the truth, let alone > > those "social speeches" which aim at showing humbleness. > 59790 From: Ken O Date: Thu May 25, 2006 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. ashkenn2k Hi Herman > Oh Tep, that's all a little bit black and white for me. I'll say > something black and white too, just to balance your statement. Is the craving for heroin different in kind to the craving for existence? K: craving is the same it just the intensity of craving is different due to latency Cheers Ken O 59791 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 25, 2006 5:51am Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/25/06 12:29:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Tep: It is very simple, the way I see it, Howard. The silly heck of > the argument started with your interpretation of the truthful > statement of the monk (who admitted with regret that he had not > reached any attainment 'worthy of a true practitioner') as proving > himself wrong (see # 59719). So I asked why you thought you knew him > better than he knew himself, 'cause I knew he was speaking truthfully > about himself. So how could he be wrong? If he knew he was better than > what his sppeech displayed him, then wouldn't that mean he lied in > order to look humble? > > The world of ordinary people is full of twists and turns indeed. > > > Let's end the useless argument here. Thanks. > > > Sincerely, > > Tep > ======= > ========================== Ok, Tep. Let me clarify my original statement that started this all off. I was being ironic and purposely paradoxical in saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi by his very words proved himself wrong. In saying that he hadn't achieved worthy attainments, he showed himself to be a humble person, and I noted that humility is a very worthy attainment. Obviously that isn't the sort of attainment he was alluding to, and, in fact, he is probably too humble to even take note of his humility as being special. But I think that it is special. So, please forget my "cutesy" statement to the effect that he proved himself wrong. What I wrote was just a "clever" way of pointing out what a truthful and humble person he is. Had I just pointed that out, straightforwardly, and less "cleverly", none of this conversation would have ensued. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 59792 From: Ken O Date: Thu May 25, 2006 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Brain research on craving ... An Abhidhamma Quiz .. ashkenn2k Hi Herman H :So, is the craving different, or is the object different? k: object does not crave but it can condition craving. as i said earlier, craving is the same just that the intensity is different due to latency different objects condition different intensity of craving. It is not the eyes sense and eyes objects that are the fetters, it is the fetters that arise on the meeting of the eye sense and eye objects (I read it somewhere just lazy to look for the sutta and I hope I got the gist correct If objects are the fetters, then there will be no salvation, Buddha will not have been enlighted :-) as he would have see numerous eye objects in his lifetimes Cheers Ken O 59793 From: Ken O Date: Thu May 25, 2006 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Suttas about Atta ashkenn2k Hi Herman vipaka is kamma resultant. it is the result of suffering in formations or suffering due to birth in the human realm, even Buddha also experiences unpleasant vipaka vedana on his physical body when he is sick or having a thorn on his toe. cheers Ken O 59794 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 10:54am Subject: Re: Understanding dhammas, understanding realities/'realities' indriyabala Hi Sarah , > S: That was a funny one - thanks for clarifying that I wasn't 'the >wrong tree' you were barking at:-). T: It is impolite to 'bark at' anyone or anything. {:-|>> ................. >S: Pls ask again with a little clarification of your terms if you can >be bothered. T: Impatience is not the problem here; the problem here is lost of communication -- like lost of a communication line after a thunderstorm. The communicating citta was gone along with the cetasikas that had conditioned the good & inspiring comunication. ............ >T: The essence is about "experience", the manner which other namas >"experience" an object, and why they can perform such special >function that is supposed to pertain only to the citta. ..... S: I don't think the 'special function' of experience is 'supposed to pertain only to the citta'. I haven't read that. Citta is the chief in experiencing an object, but it cannot experience without supports as I tried to indicate. T: Why is the citta "the chief" if it cannot perform certain functions that no cetasikas can? Is a Police Chief not more capable than a policeman? {:>|] .................. >S: >As I said, I thought these were good and important questions. I'm >happy to persevere if you are. T: So, let the band play on! Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) >Tep, I assure you that I'm not expecting 'semantic > accuracy' or anything in particular. We all have our own styles which makes it so enjoyable to try and sort out these communication difficulties you refer to. > 59795 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu May 25, 2006 11:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Reifying, onco111 Hi Howard, I think there are several ways to talk about citta vs. cetasika, depending on what aspect of the world you want to highlight at a particular moment. Your mapping of citta onto vinyana is nice. It helps highlight the importance of cetasika as actors as citta as pure cognition. Or when the cittas are classified according to the accompanying cetasikas (as in Abhidhammatha sangaha), the cetasikas are the characteristics that define a moment (citta) as, say, "akusala rooted in lobha and ditthi" or as "kusala, associated with somanassa and not with wrong view." This highlights the importance of cetasika as determinative of the of cognition. Dan > > >Howard: > > > For the most part, I think they are operations as well. Even > > things > > >like distraction, anger, fear, and love, for example, which might be > > thought of > > >as "flavorings" are mental events/activities. > > > > Yup, I know what you mean. Can you put words on how you understand > > citta to differ from cetasika? > > > > Dan > > > > > ========================= > Citta, or as I prefer it, vi~n~nana, is the operation of merely being > aware of content. That's all it is - the mere knowing of content. All the > cetasikas are auxilliary to that, being specialized operations and activities. > Vedana, for example, is affectively "tasting" the content. The term 'concomitant' > seems pretty good to me. How do you see this? > > With metta, > Howard > 59796 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 1:39pm Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: sati in the list of the Dhammasangani, manasikaara. indriyabala Hi Howard, Thank you for "wrapping up" this conversation pretty well. > Howard: So, please forget my "cutesy" statement to the effect that he proved himself wrong. What I wrote was just a "clever" way of pointing out what a truthful and humble person he is. Had I just pointed that out, straightforwardly, and less "cleverly", none of this conversation would have ensued. On the other hand, had I just let it go from the beginning, none of this conversation would have ensued. <|-:][:-[) Warm regards, Tep, your friend ===== ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > (snipped) > ========================== > Ok, Tep. Let me clarify my original statement that started this all off. I was being ironic and purposely paradoxical in saying that Bhikkhu Bodhi by his very words proved himself wrong. In saying that he hadn't achieved worthy attainments, he showed himself to be a humble person, and I noted that humility is a very worthy attainment. Obviously that isn't the sort of attainment he was alluding to, and, in fact, he is probably too humble to even take note of his humility as being special. But I think that it is special. > 59797 From: "indriyabala" Date: Thu May 25, 2006 1:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reifying, .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives indriyabala Hi Dan (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Howard, > I think there are several ways to talk about citta vs. cetasika, > depending on what aspect of the world you want to highlight at a > particular moment. > > Your mapping of citta onto vinyana is nice. It helps highlight the > importance of cetasika as actors as citta as pure cognition. > But what is the correct way? The fact that there are "several ways" tells me that these are just different perspectives, and you are not sure of any one of them. Waht did our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, explain about citta & cetasikas [mano and dhammarammana]? Is that the best explanation, or not? Warm regards, Tep ======= 59798 From: "Dan D." Date: Thu May 25, 2006 2:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Reifying, .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives onco111 Hi Tep, Buddha explained citta and cetasika in hundreds of ways. Which of those is best? If you give me a chance to think about it, I could tell you my favorite, but I'd rather not choose. With metta, Dan > But what is the correct way? The fact that there are "several ways" > tells me that these are just different perspectives, and you are not > sure of any one of them. > > Waht did our Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, explain about citta & > cetasikas [mano and dhammarammana]? Is that the best explanation, or not? 59799 From: han tun Date: Thu May 25, 2006 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 452- oppoosite of saddhaa. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), >Nina: When I hear the word associate, I think of sampayutta, arising with citta rooted in lobha at the same time. But this is not meant like this, it is not possible. [associates with tanha]: I think he means often alternated with tanhaa. Or, tanhaa arises on account of one's good deeds with saddhaa. One may cling to saddhaa, it often happens. Han: I do not have Pali version. I checked again with the Burmese version and the English translation from the Burmese, and I found the following English translation correct: [Pakati-saddha which has no development through specific practice, associates with tanha according to circumstances, and can thus produce only the pakati-kusala-kamma of dana, sila, etc. It cannot overcome tanha with strength. On the other hand, tanha keeps pakati-saddha under its power.] It is to be noted that at this point, Sayadaw was speaking about pakati-saddhaa, the weak one, and not the bhavana saddhaa, the strong one. However, your above explanation is very good. ------------------------------ > Nina: And the expression that tanhaa is the opposite of saddhaa: it is the enemy of saddhaa. I read in the Co. to the Cariyaapitaka that lobha is the opposite or enemy of all the perfections. Clinging hinders the development of all good qualities. I think he saw it from this point of view. Han: I like your explanation that lobha is the opposite or enemy of all the perfections, and clinging hinders the development of all good qualities. Yes, Sayadaw must have seen it from this point of view. Respectfully, Han