#60200	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:44 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tipitaya? aadhipateyya. 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Dear Nina & Phil,

Nina, thankyou so much for giving this sutta on the 3 kinds of
aadhipatteyya - it's just what I was looking for before.

Thanks to Phil for following up on this point as well. I asked a little
more on the point in Bangkok in February (which you'll hear in due
course), but I think the quote and Nina's comments are very clear.

Like you said, Phil, we don't know others' motives and so on at any given
time and I also thought when I heard it that it was a bit of a
generalization to say it's dhamma aadhipatteyya at anytime for any of us.

But, I think it's like when we generalize and say eating good food is
kusala vipaka or being helpful to people shows metta and so on. Of course,
there are lots of different cittas involved, but (like when we read the
suttas), if we've studied the Abhidhamma and know this, there's no
confusion. We know they are generalizations or indications only.

Whenever I hear K.Sujin talking about something which is new to me, sooner
or later, I always find it in the texts. (Like the point you sometimes
refer to Phil about namas being more subtle than rupas that I raised once.
Since that time, I've found so many references to it). This is why she
always stresses that what she says can all be found in the Tipitaka.

Thanks again to you both,

Sarah


--- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> The Pali term is aadhipateyya, predominance.
> When we study hiri and ottappa we learn that the proximate cause of hiri
> is
> self respect, and the proximate cause of ottappa is respect for other
> people, one fears the consequences of akusala. These are similar to the
> two
> first predominances.
>
> I quote the following sutta where predominance of dhamma is included.
> (from
> ATI, read for stress: dukkha, for cosmos: the world).
>
> <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/index.html >
<...>
> Kh Sujin would emphasize the last predominance. We learnt what is kusala
> and
> akusala and develop understanding to see them as just dhammas, not
> belonging
> to self. Satipa.t.thaana can be our guiding principle. We learn to
> abstain
> from akusala and perform kusala with right understanding of dhammas as
> non-self. This is the purest way leading to the eradication of all
> akusala.
<...>


#60201	From: "kelvin_lwin" <kelvin_lwin@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:47 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	kelvin_lwin 
 	

Hi Howard (KenH),

> H: the contrary, the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta satisfies me
completely as to the
> truth of a view quite the opposite of the contiguity of path &
fruit.

   Kel: Perhaps look at this from another perspective using seven
visuddhis.

http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/Purification.html

As you know 5th one is Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What
Is Path and Not-Path (maggamagga-ñanadassana-visuddhi).  Here we can
see that the Path has to be clearly known and seen already.  The
rest is walking along the way, as Nina said in #29236:

  Pali: pa.tipanno: pa.tipajjati: to go along a path.

   So knowing the path and obtaining the fruit are quite separated as
you said.  After Purification by Knowledge and Vision (ñanadassana-
visuddhi), and becoming a sotapanna the person has to strive again
toward higher paths and fruitions.  They can stand pat and just
enjoy the already obtained fruit also, this is always a possibility,
think Visakha.  When they do start again, because three fetters are
already destroyed, Purification of View (ditthi-visuddhi) is already
accomplished.  They would start at Purification by Overcoming Doubt
(kankha-vitarana-visuddhi) (according to theory).  Thus the 5th
visuddhi has to be obtained again in order to be considered "on the
Path" which distinguish a normal Sotapanna and the one actively
striving toward Sakadagami.

   Now let's look at the list, you skipped one:

9. Sotapanna
10. striving for Sotapatti Fruition
11. When Buddha's Teaching is absent, to one who lives detached from
sensual pleasures [meant attained jhanas]
12. common worldling who is endowed with morality
13. common worldling who is without morality
14. animal is the fourteenth

   So normally we have sila, samadhi, panna.  It makes sense in a way
that mundane achievements in all those are represented.  With 12 =
sila, 11 = samadhi and 10 = panna then realization of the
supramundane is at 9.  Thus, 9 and 10 are only possible in sasana
which make sense since 11th is normally best achievable outside
(excluding pacceka-Buddhas).  So if you think about the type of
people you can encounter during all possible rebirths and given a
chance for dana, it matches up.  I'm sure you are not convinced but
I at least hope to have shown that there is some logical reason
behind reading it in Abhidhamma consistent way.

- Kel

ps in #29223, Steve gives translation from Puggala-Pannati of
definition in path/fruition


#60202	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:59 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nimitta as object of awareness? 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Azita (Phil & Nina & all),

--- gazita2002 <gazita2002@...> wrote:

>  Hello Phil, Nina, Sarah and all,
>
>  Firstly, all thanx go to Sarah and Jon for the Cds and for the
> wonderful musical touch which has been added to the last 2 Cds. Have
> written Sarah offline now want to make my apreciation public - so to
> speak. the musical interludes make me smile.
....
S: :-) Thx, Azita. It's a pleasure.*
....
> azita: actually, its the first time that I remember, where nimitta
> is used so much. Just this morning I was listening to that very talk
> and thought similar to you.
....
S: I think it depends a lot on the questions and the points which are
picked up. Now, when I listen to older discussions (such as the Erik
series), the comments on nimitta are there, but no one picks them up. Last
summer we had a long discussion with KS on the topic and I think it
snowballed after that....
...
>     have u ever had your eyes tested for glasses, Phil? The
> optomotrist [sp?]keeps adjusting the lens until finally u can see
> the letters clearly - maybe thats what the growing wisdom is like,
> very dull at first until one day, far away, one sees clearly.
>     interested to hear what others may have to say.
....
S: I think this is a very good analogy. The objects remain the same, but
the better the lens, the clearer they become.

We are used to thinking in terms of either experiencing dhammas as
concepts or realities, but we discussed a gradual experiencing of the
nimittas of dhammas, getting closer and closer to the direct experiencing
of dhammas, just like in your example with the lenses.

I always enjoy your way of expression.

Metta,

Sarah


#60203	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 2:15 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please don't.... 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Howard (Tep, Dan, all),

--- upasaka@... wrote:

> > >>Howard:
> > >>    Actually, there is a sutta - please forgive my inability
> > >with giving
> > >>citations - to the effect that wherever there are found teachings
> > >that lead to
> > >>(or are conducive to) calm and relinquishment (or something along
> > >these
> > >>lines), they should be considered as Dhamma.
....
> > S: MN72, Aggivacchagotta Sutta by any chance?
> >
> ==========================
>        Thank you, Sarah, but no, that's not it. It's an important sutta,
> for
> sure, but doesn't seem to me to involve anything along the lines I was
> referring to.
....
S: :-) I was thinking of the lines about the various speculative views and
questions which don't lead to calm and relinquishment (and the reverse).

Perhaps Tep or someone else will help you find the right "Missing Sutta".
Pls let us know if you find it, I'm curious now....

Metta,

Sarah
=======


#60204	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 2:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... Correct Vision of Nama & Rupa 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Matheesha & all,

--- matheesha <dhammachat@...> wrote:
> > S: I understand sankhara (in D.O.) to refer to past kamma (good and
> bad)
> > which has resulted to the birth consciousness and other vipaka
> cittas in
> > this life.
> > I understand vinnana (in D.O.)to refer to this birth consciousness
> and
> > these vipaka cittas in this life.
> > ....
>
> M: Yes Sarah, that understanding is certainly valid. I keep trying to
> look for a 'grand unified theory' of sankhara. :) Why should the
> sankhara of the 5 aggregates be different from that of the DO?
....
S: I think many terms have different meanings in different context. Take
'dhamma' as an example. (For meanings of sankhara, see Nyantiloka's dict
or UP under 'sankhara').

Actually, there is a 'link'. Sankhara khandha refers to cetana and other
mental factors. Cetana is the leader when it comes to 'forming up'. It is
kamma. Sankhara in D.O. refers to those kinds of kamma which have 'formed
up' to the degree of bringing results in this life.
....
> Another thing is that I cant experience easily what I experienced
> while on retreat that I identified as the pre-vinnanic sankhara of
> the DO, because my faculties arent that attuned right now. So this is
> why im not 100% sure.
.....
S: I think the 'pre-vinnanic sankhara' in D.O. have long arisen and fallen
away. They were conditioned by ignorance and in turn conditioned rebirth
in this life and other results we experience. Now, during this life there
is further kamma being accumulated and kamma of the degree of kamma patha
arising which is likely to bring results in future. So it is the present
kamma (cetana cetasika)that can be directly understood. For example, when
there is conciliatory or wise speech, kindness or the avoiding of harming
an animal or insect, the good intention can be known and vice versa.
....
>
> >S: Phala cittas follow magga cittas and are still accompanied by
> sanna, but
> > the object is nibbana. Even these cittas arise and pass away. They
> are
> > conditioned. (Even if we are talking about phala samapatti which the
> > anagamis and arahants may experience).
>
> M: Tricky one Sarah. How can one have 'window' into nibbana. Where
> the window has all the characteristcs of a non-nibbanic state.
>
> Can citta ever experience nibbana? Or is it the lack of experience?
....
S: Nibbana can only ever be experienced by cittas and cetasikas
(conditioned dhammas). Magga and phala cittas ARE cittas, accompanied by
the universal cetasikas including sanna, the eightfold path cetasikas and
other lokuttara sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas arising at the time.
.....
> You only know what happened before 'going in' and after 'waking up'.
....
S: At the moments of magga and phala cittas, the object is nibbana.
Immediately afterwards, the reviewing cittas 'review' the cittas which
arose, the object (nibbana), the defilements eradicated and so on very
'freshly'.
...
> "From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance,
> there no longer exists [the sense of] the body on account of which
> that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the
> speech... the intellect on account of which that pleasure & pain
> internally arise. There no longer exists the field, the site, the
> dimension, or the issue on account of which that pleasure & pain
> internally arise."
> -- SN XII.25
(S: And From BB's transl, the next two lines are:
"That field does not exist, that site does not exist, that base does not
exist, that foundation does not exist conditioned by which that pleasure
and pain arise internally.")
....
S: Exactly. The end of the cycle on the attainment of arahantship.

With the eradication of ignorance, there are no more conditions for any
further kamma to arise or for past kamma to bring results in the way of
rebirth.

BB gives a couple of commentary notes to this passage from SN12:25:

1."Spk: That body does not exist which, if it existed, would enable
pleasure and pain to arise conditioned by bodily volition; the same method
of explanation applies to speech and mind. (Query:) But an arahant acts,
speaks, and thinks, so how is it that his body, etc., do not exist?
(Reply:) In the sense that they do not generated kammic results. For the
deeds done by an arahant are neither wholesome nor unwholesome kamma, but
merely functional (kiriyamatta); thus for him it is said, 'that body,
etc., do not exist.'"

2."Spk: There is no 'field'(khetta) in the sense of a place of growth; no
'site'(vatthu) in the sense of a support; no 'base' (aayatana) in the
sense of a condition; no 'foundation' (adhikara.na) in the sense of a
cause."

These are all good discussion topics, Matheesha, thank you.

Metta,

Sarah
=======

#60205	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:34 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Han,

op 06-06-2006 03:16 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

As regards my previous posts on “dying moments” which
I had posted in other forum I have deleted them from
my files because I did not hear what I wanted to hear
from others. I can be, at times, very stubborn in my
own foolish way. (:>)
-------
N: I know that it can be hard to take unpleasant words, but this belongs to
the eight worldly conditions of praise, blame, etc. Within five minutes
there can be praise and blame, but we have to learn to take them in our
stride. The hearing is result of kamma, nobody can control it.
Kh. Sujin would say, it is the clinging to self. Of course, we all do. The
question is: are we learning? Do we know when there is self love?
It helps me to consider the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta developed.
He said, if there are no contrarious people how could I develop patience? My
patience is far from good, but I know that if I neglect patience I will
never attain enlightenment in the future. We have to keep an eye on the
future, we have to be farsighted, like the Bodhisatta.
Someone kept on saying to me: now you keep quiet, you keep quiet. It worked
on my nerves. Kh Sujin said: let her say this again and again. See, she
gives reminders to us in the situations of life and these are like a test.
She said: daily life is the test for your understanding.
Perhaps you did not like to hear what you heard when you were present at the
session in the Foundation, is that not so? I can understand this, but in
future you may come to appreciate bitter medicine and appreciate being
reminded of clinging to self.
It is not pleasant to hear, but for worldlings it is the truth. I believe
that we need to hear this again and again, never enough.
Truthfulness, sacca, is another perfection the Bodhisatta developed.
--------
H: If I were to write it again it would be like listening
to an old gramophone.  I would say
something and others would say no. I would say yes and
others would say no. It will get nowhere! (:>)
------
N: I like to listen anyway to your old record.
The yes and no: Sarah said that there is no need for agreement. An important
principle on the list, I would say. Some people will profit from what you
write but you may not know this, since they do not tell you. So what? It is
your kusala intention to write, that is all. Others may not agree, so what?
Why should we mind if people do not agree?
I hope Sarah will add something to this.

Nina.


#60206	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:34 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on the Visuddhi Magga Description of Concentration III.128 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Christine,
Glad to see you, I missed you for some time and just mentioned this to
Lodewijk.
op 05-06-2006 12:15 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...:
> I hope someone can explain the meaning of this passage from "The
> Path of Purification" The Visuddhi Magga by Bhandantaacariya
> Buddhaghosa. Trans. from the Pali by Bhikkhu ~Nanamoli. Description
> of Concentration III.128 p.119
>.... 'Six kinds of inclination
> lead to the maturing of the enlightenment of the Bodhisattas. With
> the inclination to non-greed Bodhisattas see the fault in greed.
> With the inclination to non-hate Bodhisattas see the fault in hate.
> With the inclination to non-delusion Bodhisattas see the fault in
> delusion. With the inclination to renunciation Bodhisattas see the
> fault in house life. With the inclination to seclusion Bodhisattas
> see the fault in society. With the inclination to relinquishment
> Bodhisattas see the fault in all kinds of becoming and destiny."
>
> In particular, do the six modes relate to the Perfections?
--------
N: All kinds of kusala that the Bodhisatta accumulated were perfections. He
did so with a view to the future: eradication of all defilements and
attaining Buddha hood.
Non-greed: lobha is the enemy of all the perfections.
Non-hate: mettaa is one of the perfections.
Non-delusion: wisdom is foremost of all the perfections, the leader of them
all.
  Renunciation, nekhamma, renouncing all akusala.
And as Han gave you the Pali:
(5) With the inclination (ajjhaasaya) to seclusion
(paviveka) Bodhisattas see the fault in society
(sanganikaa).

(6) With the inclination (ajjhaasaya) to
relinquishment (nissarana) Bodhisattas see the fault
in all kinds of becoming and destiny(sabba-bhava-gati)."

He saw the disadvantage of rebirth, of samsara.
When he performed a good deed, he actually developed all the perfections.

Now this passage is given under Concentration, and this is very meaningful.
Samatha is not to be developed for its own sake, but with an eye on the
future, to be combined with right understanding that leads to the
eradication of defilements. That is the sincere inclination that is
necessary.

Nina.


#60207	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:14 am 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 465- Non-Attachment/Alobha (m) 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd
*****
The sotåpanna has eradicated all clinging to the concept of self,
but he still clings to sensuous objects. The sakadågåmí has less
clinging to sensuous objects but he still has not eradicated it. The
anågåmí has eradicated clinging to sensuous objects but he still
clings to rebirth and he still has cittas rooted in attachment which
are accompanied by conceit. The arahat has eradicated all forms
of clinging and this shows how hard it is to eradicate it.

We may think that we cannot be happy without attachment, but complete
detachment means the highest happiness, it is freedom from all
sorrow.
*****
Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60208	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 5:39 am 
Subject: [dsg] Long Live Noble Atheism -- Re: Authority 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Herman,

What you say below is, of course, entirely correct.

H:  "Everyone has the freedom of participating in only those threads
they want to. If you get nothing out of this thread, why not just
accept that, rather than attempt to control the discussion?"

I can no more "control the discussion" here than fly to the moon.

I merely point out, with absolutely no authority, credibility, nor any
desire to claim either, that, in my opinion, what goes on in one
thread reverberates and contributes to an overall climate within the
Group.

It's not that I "get nothing" from the mode of interaction I am
commenting on; personally I get a rather bad vibe out of it.  Hence my
perhaps unwarranted comments.

And, as I mentioned, the climate, again in my opinion, seems to be one
that is becoming rather obstreperous.

If this is my own idiosyncratic and mistaken view, apologies to you
and all.  I can take responsibility for my own sensitivity in this
regard.  I don't wish to contribute to the very climate I am
commenting on.

That's all from here.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60209	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:27 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Ken -

In a message dated 6/6/06 4:44:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ken_aitch@... writes:

> Hi Howard,
>
> I had it all mixed up! I thought you were interpreting the third kind,
> as being inferior to the fourth kind. I thought you were interpreting
> "arahant" to be one who had attained arahant-magga-citta but had not
> attained arahant-phala-citta. So I thought it strange that they were
> listed out of order in what was meant to a descending order of
> gift-worthy individuals. Sorry about that, let's start again.

-----------------------------------------
Howard:
        Sure, no problem.
----------------------------------------


>
> ---------------
> <. . .>
> H: >Please note, Ken, that *after* the one who is practising to
> attain Sotapatti Fruition, a later individual mentioned to whom an
> offering can be made is a "common worldling who is endowed with
> morality," a category, you may note, different from the perviously
> mentioned "one who is practising to attain Sotapatti Fruition."
> ---------------
>
> Yes, but both sides of the argument agree it is a different category.
> One side is saying they are both worldling categories (one with just
> faith, the other with both faith and mundane right understanding),
> while your side is saying one is the worldling category, the other
> Sotapanna category.

--------------------------------------
Howard:
        True. I threw that is an an "extra". ;-)
-------------------------------------


>
> -----------------------
> H: >Also, Ken, why is nothing said of practicing for paths and not fruit?
> -----------------------
>
> I think it is because path is practice, while fruit is the result of
> practice.

-----------------------------------------
Howard:
        Nah, Ken. That's an example of what I (objectionably ;-) referred to
as a contortion. Path consciousness is an attainment, and typically momentary
in (externally measured) duration. As I see it, it is the 1st step of a 2-step
achievement.     Here, for example, is a typical description that accepts the
immediate succession of magga by phala; I quote it only for the purpose of
showing that to call path conscious "practice" is an abuse of language:
"According to the Abhidhamma, 'supermundane path', or simply 'path' (magga), is
a
designation of the moment of entering into one of the 4 stages of holiness -
Nibbana being the object - produced by intuitional insight (vipassana) into the
impermanence, misery and impersonality of existence, flashing forth and forever
transforming one's life and nature. By 'fruition' (phala) is meant those moments
of consciousness which follow immediately thereafter as the result of the
path, and which in certain circumstances may repeat for innumerable times during
the life-time."
---------------------------------------------


>
> -----------------------------
> H: >My answer: These 8 listed above are exactly the eight types of
> persons, Ken, all of them ariyans! Number 8 has realized sotapatti
> magga, number 6 sakadagami magga, and so on! This is crystal clear!
> Any other reading is, in my opinion, a matter of going to absurd
> contortions to attempt to justify a belief one clings to for dear
> life. Why it should be held t so dearly I can't imagine,
> unless it follows from an extreme attachment to commentaries at all costs.
> --------------------
>
> Now then, don't be like that. :-)

-----------------------------------------
Howard:
        LOLOL! You're right. I should have softened my language.
-----------------------------------------

>
> Now that I have pointed out that practice refers to kamma (in
> particular the kamma of magga-citta) and phala refers to vipaka, is
> your opinion still crystal clear?

-------------------------------------------
Howard:
        Yep, it is. Sorry. Of course, in any of this I recognize the
possibility of my being in error. [A very remote possibility on this (not very
important) matter! LOL!]
-----------------------------------------

>
> ----------------------------
> H: >A straightforward reading of the very straightforward sutta
> quoted is unambiguous in its indication that fruition consciousness
> does not follow immediately on the heels of path consciousness.
> ----------------------------
>
> But if our straightforward reading contradicts the ancient
> commentaries, maybe we should at least take a second look.

------------------------------------------
Howard:
        I have. I find the sutta clear. And I take a clear sutta over
implausible commentary.
-----------------------------------------

>
> ---------------------------------------
> H: >In any case, Ken, as to your amazement at the idea tha the
> explanation I was given was not entirely satisfactoryincerned, what I
> had said exactly was "I never had my objection answered to my
> satisfaction!" Now you may be satisfied, but I remain fully
> unsatisfied. On the contrary, the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta satisfies me
> completely as to the truth of a view quite the opposite of the
> contiguity of path &fruit.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Yes, my amazement was due to my careless reading: sorry about that.

-------------------------------------------
Howard:
        Okay, clear. An unimportant side issue. :-)
------------------------------------------

> However, the sutta can be logically read two ways, and I will always
> favour the way of the ancient commentaries.

------------------------------------------
Howard:
        Yes, I know. BTW, I see the possibility of two readings as well: the
clear, straightforward one, and the strained, implausible, contorted reading!
LOLOL!
------------------------------------------


>
> Ken H
>
=====================
With metta,
Howard


#60210	From: Daniel <daniell@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 6:17 am 
Subject: Re: authority 	daniell@... 
 	

Hi Howard, Dan and All

Thank you, I will think over your answers.



But by the way, I think that to quote the Buddha saying that we should not put
someone's head above our own is sort of paradoxical... If we should not put
someone's head above our own, we should do it because we have reasons for this,
no? If we do it because someone else told us so, it is still putting someone's
head above our own...


Yours, Daniel


#60211	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 2:02 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Kel (and Ken) -

In a message dated 6/6/06 4:48:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kelvin_lwin@... writes:

> Hi Howard (KenH),
>
> >H: the contrary, the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta satisfies me
> completely as to the
> >truth of a view quite the opposite of the contiguity of path &
> fruit.
>
> Kel: Perhaps look at this from another perspective using seven
> visuddhis.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/Purification.html

---------------------------------------
Howard:
        Thank you for this reference. :-)
--------------------------------------

>
> As you know 5th one is Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What
> Is Path and Not-Path (maggamagga-ñanadassana-visuddhi). Here we can
> see that the Path has to be clearly known and seen already. The
> rest is walking along the way, as Nina said in #29236:
>
> Pali: pa.tipanno: pa.tipajjati: to go along a path.
>
> So knowing the path and obtaining the fruit are quite separated as
> you said. After Purification by Knowledge and Vision (ñanadassana-
> visuddhi), and becoming a sotapanna the person has to strive again
> toward higher paths and fruitions. They can stand pat and just
> enjoy the already obtained fruit also, this is always a possibility,
> think Visakha. When they do start again, because three fetters are
> already destroyed, Purification of View (ditthi-visuddhi) is already
> accomplished. They would start at Purification by Overcoming Doubt
> (kankha-vitarana-visuddhi) (according to theory). Thus the 5th
> visuddhi has to be obtained again in order to be considered "on the
> Path" which distinguish a normal Sotapanna and the one actively
> striving toward Sakadagami.

---------------------------------------
Howard:
        Thank you for this analysis!
---------------------------------------

>
> Now let's look at the list, you skipped one:
>
> 9. Sotapanna
> 10. striving for Sotapatti Fruition
> 11. When Buddha's Teaching is absent, to one who lives detached from
> sensual pleasures [meant attained jhanas]
> 12. common worldling who is endowed with morality
> 13. common worldling who is without morality
> 14. animal is the fourteenth
>
> So normally we have sila, samadhi, panna. It makes sense in a way
> that mundane achievements in all those are represented. With 12 =
> sila, 11 = samadhi and 10 = panna then realization of the
> supramundane is at 9.
>
--------------------------------------
Howard:
        Ahh! Very interesting - truly.
-------------------------------------
   Thus, 9 and 10 are only possible in sasana >
> which make sense since 11th is normally best achievable outside
> (excluding pacceka-Buddhas). So if you think about the type of
> people you can encounter during all possible rebirths and given a
> chance for dana, it matches up. I'm sure you are not convinced but
> I at least hope to have shown that there is some logical reason
> behind reading it in Abhidhamma consistent way.

--------------------------------------
Howard:
        Why would you be sure I'm not convinced? I get a lot out of
Abhidhamma, and I am always looking for bases to trust it. While there are
superficial
elements of it I think are off the mark and possibly even extrinsic to the
original, I find much in what I  think of as "core Abhidhamma" that is clear
expession of Buddhadhamma.
-------------------------------------

>
> - Kel
>
> ps in #29223, Steve gives translation from Puggala-Pannati of
> definition in path/fruition
>
=================
With metta,
Howard


#60212	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 7:41 am 
Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 80 and Tiika. 	nilovg 
 	

Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 80.

Intro:
Upanissaya-paccaya, which can be translated as decisive support-condition or
strong dependence-condition, occurs when a dhamma assists another dhamma by
being a powerful inducement.

There are three kinds of upanissaya-paccaya:
1.decisive support of object, aaramma.nuupanissaya-paccaya
2.decisive support of proximity, anantaruupanissaya-paccaya
3.decisive support of natural condition, pakatuupanissaya-paccaya


Text Vis.: 80. (9) 'Decisive-support condition': firstly, here is the
word-meaning:
it is treated as support, not dispensed with, by its own fruit because
[its own fruit's] existence is dependent on it, thus it is the support.
------
N: The conditioning dhamma is a strong and powerful cause of the conditioned
dhamma, it is the support of the conditioned dhamma and the latter does not
occur without it. This will be explained later on.
---------
Text Vis. : But just as great misery is despair, so great support is
decisive support. This is a term for a cogent reason.
-------
N: Just as upaayaasa means great misery (ayaasa meaning: misery), so
upanissaya means great support, as the text of the Visuddhimagga explains.
The Tiika gives a word meaning of upanissaya. Nissaya is support or
dependence. The prefix upa means here: strong, powerful (bhusa).
Thus here is emphasized that the conditioning dhamma is a strong support for
the conditioned dhamma.
  ---------
Text Vis.: Consequently, a state that assists by being a cogent reason
should be understood as a decisive-support condition.
------
N: The Tiika explains that the conditioning dhamma assists the conditioned
dhamma by being a powerful cause (balavakaara.na) or cogent reason.
----------
Text Vis.: It is threefold, namely, (a) object-decisive-support,
(b)proximate-decisive-support, and (c) natural-decisive-support.
------
N: The object which is a powerful support can be a condition for citta and
cetasikas that experience it.
The preceding citta that conditions the arising of the next citta is also a
powerful support.
As to natural-decisive-support, this includes many conditioning dhammas and
conditioned dhammas, as we shall see.

******
Nina.


#60213	From: "Joop" <jwromeijn@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 7:42 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	jwromeijn 
 	

Hallo all

In a discussion with Sarah the term 'attachment' was used.

My intuive thought was upadana (one of the steps of DO), most times
translated as clinging or attachment, is a ultimate reality.
But it is know, that surprises me
Why not, why are other less important phenomena a ultimate relality
and upadana not?

Metta

Joop


#60214	From: "Joop" <jwromeijn@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 7:47 am 
Subject: [dsg] Long Live Noble Atheism -- Re: Authority 	jwromeijn 
 	

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan"
<scduncan@...> wrote:
>
>....

Hallo Scott, Herman, all

Being of-topic is sinfull in DSG, I think. It is done many times but
not in this thread?
And of course buddhism is atheistic, the devas etc used in the texts
only have a rather unimportant meta[phorical meaning

Metta

Joop


#60215	From: "Dan D." <onco111@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 8:37 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Please don't.... 	onco111 
 	

Hi Ken O,
I am enjoying your comments. Since I am pretty much in agreement, I
think I will leave it at that for now. My schedule is tightening
substantially, and I need to find ways to close the threads I've been
participating in. I'm hoping to make an appearance again at the end
of September.

Metta,

Dan


#60216	From: "Dan D." <onco111@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 8:47 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Please don't.... 	onco111 
 	

Hi Ken H,
Just a few short comments because I'm going to need to take a break
from dsg for a few months.

> It's a pity to snip your point about Mozart, Dan, but I think the
> parallel between conventional insight and Buddhist insight goes only
> so far.

Yes, a pity. The point was that insight is quite different from
intellectualizing. A moment of insight is worth a thousand words. And
moment of supramundane insight by a Buddha is worth 84,000 suttas.

....

> what I have written above irrelevant. My main point throughout all
our
> discussions has been that there are basically three forms in which
> samma-ditthi can arise: the supramundane, the mundane and the
> intellectual. I have been assuming that we agreed on that - or at
> least, that this is what we had been talking about.

And the "intellectual" has little to do with the samma-ditthi of the
path.

.....

> KH: > >Putting aside made-up theories of "right conceptualisation,"
> what is your opinion on samma-ditthi arising to take a concept as
its
> object? When the Buddha spoke about things hitherto unknown - dukkha
> and the five khandhas - did his audience understand his words? Was
> there, at such times, samma-ditthi with concepts as object?
>
> D: > This looks like a good new thread. We'd have to pull in
Herman's
> and James' recent comments on listening. I'm not sure I'll have time
> to dig in, but we shall see.
> -------------
>
> Please make time if you can, Dan: this is a fundamental issue
> that must be cleared up.


I hope to, but maybe not until September.

Metta,

Dan


#60217	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 10:07 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & Mind 	ashkenn2k 
 	

Hi Tep


Tep:  'When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns that he is
feeling a pleasant feeling' = sukham. vaa vedanam. vedayamaano
> 'sukam.vedanam. vedayaamii'ti pajaanaati.
> So what does 'vedayamaano' tell you about citta feels a feeling (or
> feeling is felt)? Here, of course, pajanaati is to discern, to
> know, to understand. --it is a function of citta, not vedana's. The
> question still is : what does the citta know??

k:  Thanks for the Pali, where did you get it.  Pali dialectics is
not my arena, however when I ask you for the pali terms for <<he
knows>> because I always find translation of certain pali terms are
not very concise.  If I do not remember wrong, pajaanaati could
implied panna.  Anyone please correct me.

>
> Tep: Can volition act as volition without citta as its chief? Isn't
> it the citta with volition (willed mind) that conditions kusala or
> akusala to arise? My answer is 'No' for the first question, and
> 'Yes' for the second. What do you think?

k:  Your first answer is correct.  As for second, citta with
volitions cannot "will" cetasikas to arise.  For akusala, it is the
taints or latency that cause akusala to arise.  For kusala, it
depends on ones accumulation through one's pariyati and patipatti,
the problem with kusala is that sometimes alobha, adosa can arise but
that does not mean panna will arise.  Also we must not forget that
accumulation work both ways as one of the function of citta is to
accmulate so it can also accumulate taints:-).  This makes citta very
fun. It is not a will citta that wills the kusala or akusala, in fact
it is the other way round, kusala and akusala cetasikas that cause
wrong volitions.  When we look at wrong speech or wrong bodily
action, it is the akusala that is strong enough to cause a person to
say or act wrongly.

k:  Just feel like saying this.  If you think J R Tolkien of "Lord of
the Rings is a masterpiece", you have not yet met citta :-).  This
quote is nice from Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg
8

<<"It is consciouness because it causes variegation (vicitta), or
because it is itself variegated:  it is gathered (citta) by kamma and
defilements, or it perserves what has been gather thus:  it gathers
its own continuity, and it has a variety of objects.">>

On Cetasikas

<<That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occuring in dependence
upon it is mentality (cetasika).  For it is unable to take an object
without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no
arising of any mentality at all.  But consciousness does occur with
an object in the absence of certain mentalities; so mentality is said
to occur in dependence upon conscousness.  Therefore the Blessed One
has said:  "Dhammas have mind as their forerunner".  This refutes
erroneous opinions such as that happiness etc are permanent and exist
in the absence of consciouness.  Alternatively mentality is that
which is combined with consciousness>>

k:  Are you the one who ask me about kamma vacaro, it yes I will type
it out for you in the next email (I found it in the same book)
because it is getting late.


Cheers
Ken O


#60218	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 10:34 am 
Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, 4 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Friends,

This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel
251/253:

<'Hatred', according to the commentary, 'may lead to wrong-doings towards
parents, brothers, sisters, ascetics (i.e. people of religious calling),
etc. Wherever such an offender goes, blame and bad reputation will follow
him. If, through hatred, he even commits one of the heinous offences
(anantariya-kamma), such as parricide, etc. he will suffer in hell for eons.
In that way, hatred is a great fault both in public opinion and by its
kamma-result. Yet hatred may quickly fade away; for soon after committing an
offence out of hatred or anger one may repent, ask those one has wronged for
forgiveness, and if that is granted, the act is atoned for (as far as the
offender's state of mind is concerned).'

Hatred is a disruptive and anti-social factor, a source of untold misery for
individuals and all human groups. One would thus expect social to regard it
as a 'great fault', as the great enemy of societal welfare, and make every
effort to weaken and eliminate it. But on the contrary we find that human
institutions, large and small, have often promoted hate for their own
selfish ends, or have fostered deeds, words and thoughts of hate motivated
by delusive ideologies. Throughout history, leaders seeking the support of
the masses have always found it easier to unite people by means of a common
hate than a common love

On the individual level, hatred in all its degree is often roused by
conflicting self-interests and by other kinds of egocentric antagonism.
Hatred can grow as obsessive as lustful passion, but it is generally more
destructive for both the hater and his victim. It can take deep roots in the
mind, be it in the form of smoldering resentment or the enjoyment of
outbursts of violence. Through hatred, man's mind sink to a sub-human level,
and thus for the hater there is always the risk of being reborn in a
sub-human realm of existence
Yet for one who does not identify himself with all this states of mind, but
sees the need and has the will to transform himself - for such a one it will
not be difficult to control his hatred or anger before it grows stronger.
Hatred causes irritation, tension and distress; and since men are basically
being 'desirous of happiness and averse to unhappiness', those who do
understand the consequences of hatred will normally wish to get rid of it. >

******
Nina

#60219	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 10:49 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Ken O and Dan, here is an extract from a very good post by Sukin.
This will answer Ken's question.
Sukin:
<Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the
Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. The
object of the citta at that moment is `concept', different from when it is
patipatti, where the object is a characteristic of a reality appearing
through one of the six doorways.

Obviously the same concept can be wrongly understood, so in this case,
even though accumulated data as knowledge may be the same, there is
no panna involved, so this would *not* be called pariyatti. One
important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in
the present moment. Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to
use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and
activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when
arisen, falls away instantly.

When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that
this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very
phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the
characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However,
there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and
with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a
planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of
satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood
through direct experience.

The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more
and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can
reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through
experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied
and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other
time, place or activity.

To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of
wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently
arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends
the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is
weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time,
that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by
the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience
arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to
greater understanding of the six worlds separately.

Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only
happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the
presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object.

Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti
and what it is really about. Otherwise doubt and other unwholesome
dhammas will lead us the wrong way, because we think that theory is
just that, and involving only thinking and sanna. In other words
we "seek to practice" precisely because we don't have the correct
intellectual understanding and hence real appreciation for it. ;-)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Sukin:
> However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but
> because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs
> a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again.>
-------
end quote.
****
Nina.
  Ken O:  I am not good at Pali terms Pariyatti (this is the arena of -
> Nina) , Patipatti (practise).  Maybe it would be good Nina to give
us
> the defintion of these two and their relations.  I remember
pariyatti
> and patipatti goes hand in hand but one need pariyatti for the 1st
> three fruition and patipatti for the last fruition (I read it
> somewhere)


#60220	From: "indriyabala" <indriyabala@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 11:47 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Faked MN 111 ? 	indriyabala 
 	

Hi Herman, -

Thanks for reprimanding me. Maybe I deserved that! {:-(

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman"
<hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Tep,
>
>
> > ?? {:-|)>> ??
>
>
> The next time you are inclined to get on your high horse about the
>way others fail in communicating with you, you might instead ask
>yourself what you can do to improve your communicating with them.
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
> Herman
>

It is true that there was a communication problem between us.

Sincerely,

Tep
=======


#60221	From: "indriyabala" <indriyabala@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:58 pm 
Subject: Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & Mind 	indriyabala 
 	

Hi Ken O. ,-

Thank you for sincerely trying to explain your perspective on citta
and cetasika. Thank you much for the Commentary.

> >T: Isn't it the citta with volition (willed mind) that conditions
> > kusala or akusala to arise?

>Ken O. :
>... citta with volitions cannot "will" cetasikas to arise.

Tep: Then how can you abstain from killing?
...................

>Ken O. :
>For akusala, it is the taints or latency that cause akusala to arise.
For kusala, it depends on ones accumulation through one's pariyati and
patipatti, the problem with kusala is that sometimes alobha, adosa can
arise but that does not mean panna will arise. Also we must not forget
that accumulation work both ways as one of the function of citta is to
accmulate so it can also accumulate taints:-).

Tep: I don't understand how taints "cause akusala to arise", because
Taints are kilesa, so they are already akusala. Without cooperation of
the citta how can taints just cause akusala to rise in the citta?

You talk about taints (kilesas, asavas) as if they were an agent
(atta) that could cause an akusala to arise independently of the
citta. Are taints operating independently with no connection with the
citta at all? Where does an akusala arise -- inside the citta, outside
it, or somewhere else?  Besides, do you believe that "accumulation" is
another independent agent that operates on its own?  That sounds like
a self !
..................

>Ken O. :
>It is not a will citta that wills the kusala or akusala, in fact it
is the other way round, kusala and akusala cetasikas that cause
wrong volitions. When we look at wrong speech or wrong bodily action,
it is the akusala that is strong enough to cause a person to
say or act wrongly.

Tep: What you said is exactly the same as saying that the cetasikas
are the "chief" of all actions and the citta is their follower.  Do
kusala/akusala cetasikas control cittas? Are they 'atta', or somewhat
like the viruses that cause health problems in a human being?
................

>Ken O. :
>This quote is nice from Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and
Commentary pg 8

<<"It is consciouness because it causes variegation (vicitta), or
because it is itself variegated: it is gathered (citta) by kamma and
defilements, or it perserves what has been gather thus: it gathers its
own continuity, and it has a variety of objects.">>

Tep: Can you explain this quote in your own words, please?
Specifically, what does "it is gathered (citta) by kamma and
defilements" mean?
.....................
>Ken O. :
>On Cetasikas

<<That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occuring in dependence
upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object
without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no
arising of any mentality at all. But consciousness does occur with
an object in the absence of certain mentalities; so mentality is said
to occur in dependence upon conscousness. Therefore the Blessed One
has said: "Dhammas have mind as their forerunner". This refutes
erroneous opinions such as that happiness etc are permanent and exist
in the absence of consciouness. Alternatively mentality is that which
is combined with consciousness>>

Tep: This Co. says that cetasikas exist in the citta and they are
dependent upon the citta. Further, it says that cetasikas (kusala,
akusala, feelings, volition, etc.) cannot arise without the presence
of a citta. All this, I am sorry to say, contradicts to what you
explained earlier (above).
....................

k: Are you the one who ask me about kamma vacaro, it yes I will type
it out for you in the next email (I found it in the same book)
because it is getting late.

Tep: No, I am not the person who asked you that.


Sincerely,


Tep

=====
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tep
>
>
> Tep:  'When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns that he is
> feeling a pleasant feeling' = sukham. vaa vedanam. vedayamaano
> > 'sukam.vedanam. vedayaamii'ti pajaanaati.
> > So what does 'vedayamaano' tell you about citta feels a feeling (or
> > feeling is felt)? Here, of course, pajanaati is to discern, to
> > know, to understand. --it is a function of citta, not vedana's. The
> > question still is : what does the citta know??
>
> k:  Thanks for the Pali, where did you get it.  Pali dialectics is
> not my arena, however when I ask you for the pali terms for <<he
> knows>> because I always find translation of certain pali terms are
> not very concise.  If I do not remember wrong, pajaanaati could
> implied panna.  Anyone please correct me.
>


#60222	From: "Paul Grabianowski" <paulgrabianowski@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 2:16 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	paulgrabiano... 
 	

Dear Nina, Ken and Dan,

I apologize first for jumping into this without adequate preparation.  I
currently do not have internet access in my home, so I have very limited time to
read and respond to emails.  One thing I've been thinking about recently comes
up in a secondary way in Sukin's earlier post, or at least reminds me of a
question I've had for a while.  I would like to understand this point more
clearly.  Sukin wrote:

When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that
this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this. very
phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the
characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However,
there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and
with some confidence.

The sentence I'm particularly perplexed by is "The level of understanding may
not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to
panna."  I believe I have heard Sujin say before that panna does not directly
experience seeing or visible object.  I know that panna is a cetasika, but it
seems to me that the insight into the characteristic of seeing or visible object
is subsequent to the direct experience of the these characteristics.  In other
words, my current understanding is that citta accompanied by sati would directly
experience the succession of mind-door processes of visible object and its
concomitant cetasikas of (a)loba, (a)moha, or a(dosa) etc.  Panna, then, would
rise dependent upon these moments of sati and previous moments of panna and
experience and understand that nature of the characteristics of what sati had
just been aware of.  I'm wondering, however, how it is possible to say that the
characteristic of seeing appears to panna.  It seems to me that what would
appear to panna would have to be a sort of highly refined recollection or nimita
that is a replay of what had appeared to sati.  It seems that there would be no
privileging of panna as a kind of supreme insight.  It would be no less subject
to the chain of causation.  In this way, it would be merely an impermanent
mental factor in a web of independent relations which, nonetheless, is a mental
factor with a particular function of understanding the nature of reality that
has been directly cognized and thus would be essential for the unfolding
Pariyatti.  This point seems important to me, because I think my understanding
of dhamma had been hindered by attributing a kind of transcendental or
privileged function to panna.  Any help in understanding what role panna (a
paramatha dhamma?) has in "directly" or not directly cognizing the
characteristic of visible object etc. would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks.

Paul

P.S.

Nina, I just recieved a copy of your translation of Sujin's Paramatha Dhammas
from Sukin.  I is wonderful!  I am truly excited to read it through.



#60223	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:22 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a "happy" proposition ... Metta and Devas 	egberdina 
 	

Hi Kel,

Thank you for discussing with me in a detached way.

>  Kel: For an analytical guy you seem to have a problem with
>  analysis?  Or for a guy who says literal reading of the text is
>  dangerous ...
>
>  >H: Thanks for naming that Sutta. What I think is logical is that
>
>  any gift given
>  > with a mind to procure a desired future result is not a gift. And
>  any act
>  > done with a mind to procure a gift is the act of a charlatan.
>
>
>  Kel: Here's what is meant by dana:
>
>  Another sutta (A.iii,336) maintains that it is not possible to
>  estimate the amount of merit that accrues when an offering is
>  endowed with six particular characteristics. Three of the
>  characteristics belong to the donor while three belong to the donee.
>  The donor should be happy at the thought of giving prior to making
>  the offering. He should be pleased at the time of making the
>  offering, and he should be satisfied after the offering is made.
>  Thus the nobility of thought — without a trace of greed before,
>  during and after the offering — makes a gift truly great. The
>  recipients also should be free from lust, hatred and delusion, or
>  they should have embarked on a course of training for the
>  elimination of these mental depravities. When an almsgiving is
>  endowed with these qualities of the donor and donee, the merit is
>  said to be as immeasurable as the waters in the ocean.
>
>  > H: In relation to how some mindsets can butcher generousity
>
>  through analysis,
>  > the following is just the index from an essay on the perfecting of
>  dana.
>  > THE PERFECTION OF GENEROSITY (//DANA PARAMI//)
>
>
>  Kel: Have you read the article beyond the index?  It seems fine to
>  me but maybe because it's written by Burmese people, hehe.

Thank you for all your comments. I find them very useful (also because
I don't have to first filter out all the emotional content). I have
read the article many, many times. Writing with you has brought to the
fore in me some deeply imprinted Christian thoughts on dana, which are
conflicting with some of the Buddhist renderings.

This is Jesus' instruction on dana. 'I tell you the truth, whatever
you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for
me.' and "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the
least of these, you did not do for me.'

This is said in reference to "For I was hungry and you gave me nothing
to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a
stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did
not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after
me.'

This is said in relation to all people in need, the sick, the elderly,
the untouchables, the unworthy, the criminals, the precept breakers.
The thought of selecting out the sangha for preferential dana is very
contrary to Christian thought.

Thank you for helping me understand where my aversion is coming from.
We'll see where it goes ...

KInd Regards


Herman


#60224	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:24 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Long Live Noble Atheism -- Re: Authority 	egberdina 
 	

>  Kel: I was thinking along the lines of hierarchy of gods is by
>  definition not God.  But then I guess you can point to the Greek
>  gods and tell me it's the same thing.  Honestly though creation
>  power of Devas don't include life.  They cannot affect someone more
>  than what their own kamma would allow.  True Buddhist should not
>  scorn anyone for their beliefs.  Some supposed Buddhist would spend
>  all their time dealing with Devas/Brahmas and it's not so conducive
>  to practice either.  This world is full of people who will mess up
>  anything by fumbling around in their ignorance.  It would be wrong
>  to judge everyone based on majority of fools :)
>

Thank you. It makes a lot of sense.

Kind Regards


Herman


#60225	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:35 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Long Live Noble Atheism -- Re: Authority 	egberdina 
 	

Hi Scott,

>  accept that, rather than attempt to control the discussion?"
>
>
>  I can no more "control the discussion" here than fly to the moon.
>

Ah, but it is the attempting, the wanting to, isn't it?


>  It's not that I "get nothing" from the mode of interaction I am
>  commenting on; personally I get a rather bad vibe out of it.  Hence my
>  perhaps unwarranted comments.

I am happy that you feel at liberty to express your reservations. I
can only speak on my own behalf and tell you that I do not intend to
set up bad vibes in whoever reads my posts. I think we can come to
understand any aversion as originating solely in our own minds. And
realising that it is nothing more than squigles on a screen causing
all this angst is surely worth a good belly-laugh?

How goes the Stanley Cup?

Kind Regards


Herman


#60226	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:35 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on the Visuddhi Magga Description of Concentration III.128 	hantun1 
 	

Dear Christine,

All is now going well, Christine.
With the advice by Tep and Bhante Samahita, I am now
managing JourneyToNibbana. It is not a busy forum, but
I have to check every 3-4 hours or so, to see if there
are any pending messages to be moderated, or
membership applications to be approved.

As regards your question there is still one point to
be cleared. Please see the following again.

[128. With a sincere inclination [of the heart]
(sampanna-ajjhaasaya) and sincere resolution (#123)
(sampanna-adhimutti): the meditator's inclination
(ajjhaasaya) should be sincere in the six modes
beginning with non-greed.]

What are the original Pali words for the “six modes”?

The original Pali word in the Text for this is
“chahaakaarehi”
But I cannot find this Pali word in Rhys Davids
Dictionary.
It must be a combined word.
Cha is six, so I break it up into “cha + haakaara”.
Still I cannot find “haakaara” in the Dictionary.
So, I break it up into “cha + aakaara”.
Then I can find the “aakaara” which means property,
quality, attribute.
So I assumed that if the “six modes” are to be
translated back to Pali it will be “cha + aakaara”.

Respectfully,
Han


#60227	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 3:53 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: the one way. 	egberdina 
 	

Hi Sarah,

>
>  > N: Right, an article is not always necessary, but here we might have
>  > expected  saa (for vedanaa) as subject. Especially in the consruction of
>  > the
>  > sentence. I was thinking of Vis. XIV, 125:
>  > <The Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its
>  > mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being felt.
>  > First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is felt
>  > is
>  > feeling.
>  > Then the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between
>  > Maha-Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: it feels, it
>  > feels,
>  > friend, that is why it is called feeling. In the text, after the
>  > passive,
>  > the active form (which the translator did not render) is used:  vedayati
>  > vedayatiiti, it feels, it feels.
>  > It feels, but in Pali no article is used here. There is merely the
>  > declination of the verb, to feel, in the third person singular. There is
>  > no
>  > subject, no person who feels.
>
>  .....
>  S: No person that feels, but there is the nama, the element of vedana
>  which feels.
>
>  I don't see any significance in this - like passages referring to how
>  citta cognizes. For example, when we read in the Atth that 'by citta is
>  meant that which thinks of its object, is aware variously', [cittan ti
>  aaramma.na.m cintetii ti citta.m vijaanaati ti attho'], I don't think it
>  makes any difference to the meaning how it is expressed, but as you know,
>  I have little Pali knowledge and may be missing your point.
>  ....

The following is taken from A Manual of Abhidhamma — Ven. Narada Maha Thera.

"The first Paramattha or reality is Citta. It is derived from the root
"citi", to think. According to the commentary Citta is that which is
aware of (cinteti = vijanati) an object. It is not that which thinks
of an object as the term implies. From an Abidhamma standpoint Citta
may better be defined as the awareness of an object, since there is no
agent like a soul."

Kind Regards


Herman


#60228	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 5:10 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience. 	hantun1 
 	

Dear Nina,

Nina: Perhaps you did not like to hear what you heard
when you were present at the session in the
Foundation, is that not so? I can understand this, but
in future you may come to appreciate bitter medicine
and appreciate being reminded of clinging to self. It
is not pleasant to hear, but for worldlings it is the
truth. I believe that we need to hear this again and
again, never enough. Truthfulness, sacca, is another
perfection the Bodhisatta developed.

Han: When I posted my messages at the other forum I
was not even a member of DSG and I had not yet been to
the session in the Foundation. When I said “I have
deleted them from my files because I did not hear what
I wanted to hear from others”, I was referring to the
response from other members of that forum.

------------------------------

N: I like to listen anyway to your old record. The yes
and no: Sarah said that there is no need for
agreement.

Han: What do you mean by “The yes and no”?

Respectfully,
Han

#60229	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 7:51 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Long Live Noble Atheism -- Re: Authority 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Herman,

H:  "How goes the Stanley Cup?"

Brutal!  Game one loss, goalie out for the series, new goalie messes
up and allows the winning goal.  Please trot out any and all useless
sports cliches now.

As far as "squiggles on the page," yeah I guess but I know that there
is someone squiggling.  You can now tell me that the squiggles are
real but the someone is not and I will still try to be careful that I
try to take the squiggling concept into consideration.

Later, man!

Scott.


#60230	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 8:40 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: the one way. 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Herman,

Just a quick reply on this one -- others later.

--- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>>S: For example, when we read in the Atth that 'by citta
> is
> >  meant that which thinks of its object, is aware variously', [cittan
> ti
> >  aaramma.na.m cintetii ti citta.m vijaanaati ti attho'],....
> >  ....
....
H:> The following is taken from A Manual of Abhidhamma — Ven. Narada Maha
> Thera.
>
> "The first Paramattha or reality is Citta. It is derived from the root
> "citi", to think. According to the commentary Citta is that which is
> aware of (cinteti = vijanati) an object. It is not that which thinks
> of an object as the term implies. From an Abidhamma standpoint Citta
> may better be defined as the awareness of an object, since there is no
> agent like a soul."
....
S: Thanks, Herman for the good quote. Good to see you into some
'Abhidhamma core' these days. (I'm looking f/w to getting back to your
other longer message to me too).

Yes, I don't think 'thinks' is the best translation for for cinteti or
vijanati, the function of citta. I'm also not keen on 'aware' because this
is usually used for the function of sati. I prefer 'experiences' or 'is
conscious of'.

As your note says, 'it is not that which thinks' in any sense we're used
to the term 'thinks'. For example, at a moment of seeing consciousness
when visible object is experienced, citta experiences the object, but
there's no thinking involved. As your quote also suggests, the main point
of understanding the functions of cittas (and cetasikas) is to make it
very clear that there's no self, or agent like a soul involved at anytime.

Thanks again, Herman.

Metta and squiggles,

Sarah
========


#60231	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 10:38 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	ashkenn2k 
 	

Hi Nina

Could you help Sukin to explain one of my question

> <Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the
> Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. The
> object of the citta at that moment is `concept', different from
> when it is patipatti, where the object is a characteristic of a
reality appearing through one of the six doorways.>

K: I think to there should be a good distinction here, an object can
be a concept but that does not imply that paripatti is developing
conceptual samma dithi.  Our understanding or intellectualising can
be conceptual but it does not mean there is such thing as conceptual
samma dithi.  To me this is important as it is the paramathas that
will develop the path and not concept.  Hence pariyatti still hold
the idea that samma dithi is a paramatha even though our panna is
low.


> Obviously the same concept can be wrongly understood, so in this
> case, even though accumulated data as knowledge may be the same,
there is no panna involved, so this would *not* be called pariyatti.
One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma
> arising in the present moment. Also it is not something that a
`self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other
conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting
conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly.

k:  Please kindly explain what is knowledge here because when we use
knowlegde, we tends to equate panna.



Cheers
ken O

#60232	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 12:07 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & Mind 	ashkenn2k 
 	

Hi Tep

> Tep: Then how can you abstain from killing?

k:  It is amoha and alobha that abstain people from killing.  It can
also be panna as one understand the reality of kamma.   If ones
propensity (accumulation) is to do violence, then the percentage of
one to do killing is higher than those who has less propensity.

> Tep: I don't understand how taints "cause akusala to arise",
> because Taints are kilesa, so they are already akusala. Without
cooperation of the citta how can taints just cause akusala to rise in
the citta? You talk about taints (kilesas, asavas) as if they were an
agent (atta) that could cause an akusala to arise independently of
the citta. Are taints operating independently with no connection with
the citta at all? Where does an akusala arise -- inside the citta,
outside it, or somewhere else?  Besides, do you believe that
"accumulation" is another independent agent that operates on its own?
  That sounds like a self !

k:  taints are dormant in all cittas even in kusala citta.  They are
like parasite :-).  They cause akusala to arise but dormant during
kuasala citta.  I remember in one sutta, there is mentioning of
Taints condition Ignorance.   I think there is good description of
them in Useposts because I am not good in explaining them.   However
accumulation is a function of citta even Ariyan also have them.

  > Tep: What you said is exactly the same as saying that the
cetasikas
> are the "chief" of all actions and the citta is their follower.  Do
> kusala/akusala cetasikas control cittas? Are they 'atta', or
> somewhat like the viruses that cause health problems in a human
being?

Tep: This Co. says that cetasikas exist in the citta and they are
> dependent upon the citta. Further, it says that cetasikas (kusala,
> akusala, feelings, volition, etc.) cannot arise without the
> presence
> of a citta. All this, I am sorry to say, contradicts to what you
> explained earlier (above).

k:  I think the distinction of the function should be clear.  Citta
is chief does not mean citta is the mafia godfather where any member
take instruction from.  Chief in the sense that without it, there is
no arisen of cetasikas, chief in terms of being the one that cognise
an object.  But this guy (citta) is a good chap, very obedient, it is
neither good or bad.  In fact it is always bully by the cetasikas.
They are the one who tell this poor chap (citta) that they are going
to be bad or good  One example is citta like water will be red or
blue depend on what kind of colour powder that mixed with the water.
We only say water is chief because without it there would not be
colour water. However it is the colour powder that determines the
type of colour and not the water.


> Tep: Can you explain this quote in your own words, please?
> Specifically, what does "it is gathered (citta) by kamma and
> defilements" mean?
> .....................

k:  Gather in my own interpretation means accumulation, so the
gathers by kamma and defilements is the acummulation of the kilesa
that conditions the formations. Anyone is welcome to correct me :-)


Cheers
Ken O


#60233	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 12:31 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please don't.... 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Dan,

--- "Dan D." <onco111@...> wrote:
> In your descriptions of what kinds of intellectual understandings
> condition insight ('condition' is my word here, is yours different?),
> I think you've used the word 'detailed' and 'right'. Is that wrong?
>
...
S: Yes, 'right' intellectual understanding (i.e.with panna)is a condition
for satipatthana and insight to arise as we read about so often in the
texts (as KenH mentioned). I would hesitate to say 'detailed' because it
simply depends on the accumulations how much and what one hears and
considers. Yesterday or the day before(in a message to Ven Samahita on
'memorization'), I quoted a passage to indicate that a few words
well-considered and understood can be called knowing the teachings by
heart.

But of course, that may have been so for Sariputta and other key
disciples. For us today, I think we do need to hear and consider a lot
from the teachings, 'detail' if you like, to really move away from any
idea of 'self' at all -- not just for this life, but for future lives as
well. (see U.P. under 'neyya'. At this time there are said to be only
'neyya' and 'padaparama' types who need to hear and consider a lot.)

I think that without hearing about namas and rupas, about khandhas, about
dhatus and so on, it is impossible for us to really understand the
teachings, to really give up the idea of Self and of people. This doesn't
mean memorizing lists of details:-).

Dan, it's been a great discussion and wonderful to have you participate
for so long at a stretch. I know you're winding up threads and I'll have
to be doing the same as well soon.

I hope you, Lisa and family have a lovely summer. Are you going to your
cabin in the Montana mountains? If I don't speak to you again, I'll look
forward to your return in September or whenever.

Metta,

Sarah
=======


#60234	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 1:14 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Paul: pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Paul,
your question is important.
op 06-06-2006 23:16 schreef Paul Grabianowski op
paulgrabianowski@...:

Nina, I just recieved a copy of your translation of Sujin's Paramatha
Dhammas from Sukin.  I is wonderful!  I am truly excited to read it through.
--------
N: I rejoice in your interest and when yopu have questions it is very good
to discuss them, if you can manage to access internet.

P:
Sukin: When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and
that
this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very
phenomenon. The level of understanding may not be such that the
characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However,
there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and
with some confidence.

P: The sentence I'm particularly perplexed by is "The level of understanding
may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears
to panna."  I believe I have heard Sujin say before that panna does not
directly experience seeing or visible object.  I know that panna is a
cetasika, but it seems to me that the insight into the characteristic of
seeing or visible object is subsequent to the direct experience of the these
characteristics.
-------
N: There is first intellectual understanding, and this is also paññaa.
Before hearing the Dhamma, it did not occur to us that seeing sees, not I,
and that visible object is just that which is seen, not the form or shape of
a thing or a person.

When we listen and consider what we hear, there can be conditions for right
mindfulness which is directly aware of characteristics of realities. When
there is awareness again and again paññaa can gradually develop so that
characteristics are directly understood. When it further develops stages of
insight can arise so that ruupa is realized as ruupa and naama as naama.
Thus, insight is direct understanding of characteristics.
-------
P: In other words, my current understanding is that citta accompanied by
sati would directly experience the succession of mind-door processes of
visible object and its concomitant cetasikas of (a)loba, (a)moha, or a(dosa)
etc.
------
N: Through insight of the first stage it is understood what a mind-door
process is. Just now it is not known, it is covered up. Also, there is no
counting of the different processes, they are too fast. Moreover, it is not
so that all  the different cetasikas are directly known by paññaa. These
cetasikas can be object of awareness one at a time, but nobody can direct
sati to be aware of them.
--------
P: Panna, then, would rise dependent upon these moments of sati and previous
moments of panna and experience and understand that nature of the
characteristics of what sati had just been aware of.
------
N: Kusala citta accompanied by paññaa is also accompanied by sati that is
aware. When there is mindfulness of a characteristic, paññaa can at that
moment develop.
---------
P: I'm wondering, however, how it is possible to say that the characteristic
of seeing appears to panna.  It seems to me that what would appear to panna
would have to be a sort of highly refined recollection or nimita that is a
replay of what had appeared to sati.
--------
N: Paññaa is accompanied by sati that is aware at that moment. Thus, kusala
citta arises that is accompanied by sati and paññaa which each perform their
own functions.
True, the seeing has just fallen away, but its characteristic of
experiencing visible object can still appear. For instance, can't you
realize now that there is seeing? That seeing has fallen away but we need
not think of it that that citta has fallen away, it arises again and again.
We do not count or try to catch those moments, but the characteristic of
seeing *appears*, it shows its own characteristic, as different from
hearing. This is the way to learn, this is the way for paññaa to develop.
Investigating again and again, but with kusala citta accompanied by paññaa,
not with lobha that wishes a result. Lobha hinders. It has to be with
detachment, that is important.
------
P: .... I think my understanding of dhamma had been hindered by attributing
a kind of transcendental or privileged function to panna.  Any help in
understanding what role panna (a paramatha dhamma?) has in "directly" or not
directly cognizing the characteristic of visible object etc. would be
greatly appreciated.
-----
N: Paññaa is a paramatha dhamma, it arises and falls away with the citta it
accompanies. It is non-self, nobody can direct it. It arises when there are
the right conditions for it: listening, considering.

This quote may help you to see that there is a long process of developing
paññaa.If it is not clear, please ask again.
Quote from Survey, Ch 34, the Natural Way of Development;

<When someone has only theoretical understanding of realities that is the
result of listening to the Dhamma, he is not able to directly understand
nåma and rúpa as they are. He does not realize that what he sees and
conceives as people and beings, is in reality only that which appears
through the eyes. Therefore, we should time and again investigate the Dhamma
we hear and study, we should ponder over it in all details. Only in this way
the meaning of the words which designate characteristics of realities can be
fully understood.
The wording ³that which appears through the eyes² describing the
characteristic of visible object is altogether appropriate. It explains that
visible object is only an element (dhåtu) appearing through the eyes so that
it can be seen. No matter what colour it is: red, green, blue, yellow or
white, a bright or a dull colour, it must appear when it impinges on the
rúpa which is eyesense. When someone, after having seen what appears through
the eyesense, does not understand realities as they are, there is bound to
be attå-saññå. He takes what was seen for people, beings or things. When
people are absorbed in different colours, it causes them to think of a
³whole², of shape and form, and thus there is remembrance (saññå) of the
outward appearance of persons and things. When it seems that one sees
people, beings or things, there are in reality only different colours which
are seen, such as black, white, the colour of skin, red or yellow.
If people would not interprete different colours or ³translate² them into
shape and form, they would not conceive them as beings, people or things.
Therefore, when we see and we are then absorbed in the shape and form, in
the outward appearance (nimitta) and the details of things, we should know
that this occurs only because colour appears. When colours appear, we think
about them, interprete them and ³translate ³ them into shape and form of
different things.
When sati arises and is mindful of realities and paññå begins to study and
investigate their characteristics, one will begin to understand that the
outward appearance and all the details of things, all the different colours,
are only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. Then paññå begins to
penetrate the characteristics of realities as not a self, not a being, not a
person. If sati arises and is aware time and again, one will understand the
meaning of the Buddha¹s words explaining that, by the development of the
understanding of the realities which naturally appear, one will not cling to
the outward appearance and the details of things. >
*****
Nina.


#60235	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 9:11 pm 
Subject: The Canal: Unhindered & Undrained ... !!! 	bhikkhu_ekamuni 
 	

Friends:

The Mental Hindrances Blur, Block & Weaken Knowledge:

The Blessed Buddha once said:
There are five obstructing obstacles and hindrances of the mind, which weakens
knowledge.
What five?
The mental hindrance of Sense-Desire is an overgrowing of the mind that shuts
out insight.
The mental hindrance of Evil-Will is a mental stumbling block that blocks any
understanding.
The mental hindrance of Lethargy & Laziness is an interruption that slows down
all knowing.
The mental hindrance of Restlessness & Regret is a disturbance that disables
comprehension.
The mental hindrance of Doubt & Uncertainty is an embankment that holds back
knowledge.
Without having overcome these Five Mental Hindrances, it is impossible for any
Bhikkhu whose
knowing thus lacks strength and power, to understand what is to his own
advantage, to others
advantage, or to the advantage of both. That he should be capable of attaining
any supra-human
state: Noble Vision and Wisdom, that is indeed impossible...
But if a Bhikkhu has overcome these Five Mental Hindrances, these five
obstructing impediments,
these overgrowths of the mind that dampen and diminish any understanding, then
it is very likely
that he will understand what is to his own advantage, others advantage, & the
advantage of both.
Thus unhindered is he quite capable of attaining any supra-human state: Noble
Vision & Wisdom...
It is like a fast flowing canal where a man opens up 5 draining side-channels,
which then weakens,
and diverts the strong midstream. Similarly is the understanding stream of
insight weakened and
diluted in anyone who have not yet overcome these Five Mental Hindrances, which
block knowing.
However, if the man closes down all the 5 draining side-channels, one by one,
then the midstream
becomes stronger and can carry anything with it. Similarly with one unhindered
by these 5 mental
hindrances, his understanding stream of insight is neither weakened, nor
polluted, nor diluted any,
so he can easily recognize what is good for himself, others and both. That such
unhindered one
should be capable of the state of noble supra-human Vision & Wisdom, that is
indeed possible...

         Source (edited extract):
         The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya.
         The Book of Fives 51: Unhindered... [III: 63-4]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.



#60236	From: "Leo" <leoaive@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 11:14 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness ouside 	leoaive 
 	

HI


THE RIGHT WAY IS WHEN SOMEONE ASKS AND MONK REPLY. WHAT IS NOW IS
THE TALK WITHOUT BEING ASKED, WHICH IS WRONG DHAMMAS. IT IS WHAT IT
IS.
I THINK THAT IS WHY DHAMMA DISAPPEAR AND SOME PROBLEMS APPEAR,
BECAUSE OF WRONG DHAMMAS EXISTANCE.



LEO




--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman"
<hhofmeister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Leo,
<...>
> I have not seen you around these parts, so welcome aboard. If
you've been
> around for a while, please forgive my ignorance.
>
> I agree with what you are saying. There are many occasions where
the Buddha
> outlined the topics fit for discussion and contemplation, and what
was not
> fit for discussion and contemplation. And now we have sangha in
politics!!
> "Buddhists" trying to unseat Prime Ministers in Thailand. I saw
nothing more
> embarrassing then after the Tsunami of 26th December, 2004, with
the
> manyfolfk afraid to return to their villages because of the
spirits of the
> dead, "Buddhist" monks busily chanting and wafting things in the
air to keep
> the spirits of the dead at bay.
>
> In another tradition it is said; "The people suffer through lack of
> knowledge"
<...>


#60237	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 11:48 pm 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 466- Non-Attachment/Alobha (n) 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd
*****
We may have read in the scriptures that clinging is the root of
sorrow, but we tend to forget this. We read, for example, in the
Middle Length Sayings (II, no. 87, Discourse on “Born of Affection”)
that the Buddha explained to a householder who had lost his only
son, that “grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair are
born of affection, originate in affection”. However, the householder
did not accept this truth.

We read that King Pasenadi spoke about this subject with Queen Mallikå.
When the Queen said that she agreed with the Buddha’s words, the King was
displeased. Further on we read that the Queen tried to explain the truth
of the Buddha’s words to the King with examples from his daily life. She
said :
*
"… “What do you think about this, sire? Is your daughter Vajírí dear to
you?”
“Yes, Mallikå. My daughter Vajírí is dear to me.”
“What do you think about this, sire? From an alteration and
otherness in your daughter Vajírí would there arise in you grief, sorrow,
suffering, lamentation and despair?”
“From an alteration and otherness, Mallikå, in my daughter Vajírí
there would be a change for me, even for life. How should there not
arise in me grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair?”
“It was in reference to this, sire, that it was said by the Lord, who
knows, who sees, perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One: ‘Grief,
sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair are born of affection,
originate in affection.’ …”
*
The Queen then asked the same question with regard to the
noble lady Våsabhå, the King’s consort, General Vièúèabha, the
son of the King and Våsabhå, and the peoples of Kåsi and Kosala.
The King then understood the truth of the Buddha’s words and he
thereupon paid respect to the Buddha and uttered words of praise.
*****
Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60238	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 4:35 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Herman,

--- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> > S: What is the present moment if it's not citta, cetasikas and rupas
> right
> > now? What can possibly ever be known but seeing, hearing, like,
> dislike or
> > any other present reality now? How can it possibly be anything other
> than
> > panna which understands such realities? How can you or I ever know
> > anything when there is no you or I?
....
H:> The point is that raw sensation is not experienced as it happens. That
> it
> happens, and what happens, is nothing more than an inference, a concept.
> The
> present moment, the now, is an inference, a concept.
....
S: I would say, it is experienced as it happens (by citta). Afterwards
there are inferences and concepts about it. But even when there are
inferences and concepts about 'raw sensation', the thinking and
conceptualising are very real. We can't say the present moment is 'an
inference, a concept.' There may be thinking about concepts now, there may
be experiences of paramattha dhammas now. The cittas and cetasikas which
experience any of these objects at any time are always real.
....
>
> Sure, seeing sees, hearing hears, feeling feels etc etc That is knowing.
> Seeing knows, hearing knows. Seeing knows visible object, but it doesn't
> know the present or the past, it doesn't know time.
....
S: OK
...
>Seeing is visible
> object.
...
S: No - they are quite distinct dhammas. Seeing is nama, a kind of citta.
Visible object is rupa which doesn't know or experience anything.
....
>But it is gone before it is known that it was there, literally.
> Knowing seeing or knowing visible object is thinking, it is not here and
> now, it is analysis of the past. Anything that can be known as being
> there
> is always already past.
....
S: I don't agree. What you say is thinking about it, but when awareness
arises and is aware of seeing or visible object, it is aware of the
'present dhamma' appearing.
....
>
> It is perhaps more easily explained as the difference between
> consciousness
> and awareness. The presence of consciousness can be inferred from
> reactivity
> to stimuli before there is any "knowing of them", as in blinking when
> objects come flying to the eye, or reacting to a prod from your wife in
> deep
> sleep, without "knowing" anything about it. But clearly there is knowing
> of
> sense objects going on. Awareness on the other hand, is consciousness of
> consciousness, and that doesn't happen in real time.
....
S: The first kind of inference is just thinking about what must have been
experienced. Yes, citta or consciousness 'knows' in a sense what it
experiences. Seeing 'knows' visible object. When you say that awareness
'doesn't happen in real time', again this is just a kind of thinking about
awareness. When awareness arises it is aware of the present dhamma
appearing. If it were not possible for awareness to be aware and for
understanding to really know these dhammas, there'd be no path of
satipatthana. But there is!
.....
>We can only infer
> that
> awareness is constructed from objects that were known by the senses. But
> whether the quality of the awareness of the object is identical to the
> quality of the consciousness of the object if and when it happened is
> unknowable.
>
>
> I hope that makes sense.
....
S: I believe I understand what you are saying, but I believe you're
underestimating the quality of awareness here. Awareness can be aware of a
dhamma that appears 'exactly as it is'. Of course, it has to develop and
only panna will clearly know when there is and isn't awareness.

Otherwise, it would be a path of thinking and inference only. But it's
not.

I hope this makes sense too:-)

Metta,

Sarah
=====


#60239	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 5:32 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Roots of Good and Evil. 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Nina,

Sorry for the delay in responding, and thank you as always for your
kind reply.

N: "Not latent in a given citta, but latent in the stream of cittas
arising and falling away in the cycle of birth and death."

This gives me to think of the analogy of the lamp. In another
discussion, Abhidhammika noted two terms:  "pave.nisambandhavasena"
and "pave.nivasena;" the former meaning something like "by means of
serial linking," the latter, I think, "serial arisings."  And these to
elucidate the process which, I think, is "the stream of cittas arising
and falling away..."  You are saying, then, that the latency of
aspects of citta "resides" or is a function of the stream of cittas
itself.  Can you say more of this?

N:  "Yes, one may wonder how one knows that there are latent
tendencies, and the akusala citta that arises shows that there are
latent tendencies. The akusala must come from somewhere. When fast
asleep we do not harm anybody, but when we wake up akusala citta is
likely to arise again. Where does it come from, since we just woke up
from sleep? This shows that there is still the latent tendency of
akusala that conditions it."

This reminds me of how bhavanga citta has links to past life object,
if I have understood correctly.  This stream of cittas must play a
large part in what we are discussing.

N:  "No, not correct. The Buddha classified the latent tendencies in
the Tipitaka, Suttanta included. They are a group of defilements, they
are real. But latent tendencies do not arise with the citta. They
condition the arising of akusala citta. Sometimes the word arisen,
upanna, is used but with another meaning, namely,having still soil to
grow in, being still not eradicated.

"The Visuddhimagga, in the explanation about Purity by Knowledge and
Vision (Ch XXII, 81-86), gives an additional explication about arisen
in the sense of having obtained a soil.
It states: 'While unprofitable [kamma] is still unabolished in any
given soil [plane], it is called arisen by having soil [to grow in].'
This refers to the latent tendencies that lie dormant in the citta."

The soil, then, is the way of describing the "medium for growth."  I
see that soil is made synonymous with "plane" and tied in with kamma
and vipakka.  You point out also that latent tendency is better
understood as conditions.

Sincerely,

Scott.
>
> -----
> N: Each citta falls away completely and conditions the following
citta by
> proximity-condition and by strong dependence of proximity, by being
a cogent
> reason for the next citta. Thus, kusala and akusala are accumulated from
> life to life.
>


#60240	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 1:40 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & M... 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Ken (and Tep) -

In a message dated 6/7/06 3:10:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ashkenn2k@... writes:

> Hi Tep
>
> >Tep: Then how can you abstain from killing?
>
> k:  It is amoha and alobha that abstain people from killing.  It can
> also be panna as one understand the reality of kamma.   If ones
> propensity (accumulation) is to do violence, then the percentage of
> one to do killing is higher than those who has less propensity.
>
> >Tep: I don't understand how taints "cause akusala to arise",
> >because Taints are kilesa, so they are already akusala. Without
> cooperation of the citta how can taints just cause akusala to rise in
> the citta?
>
-----------------------------------
Howard:
        Tep, the taints are activities that occur. They don't occur without
consciousness, but the consciousness itself is just being conscious. That is
"its" entire function.
------------------------------------
   You talk about taints (kilesas, asavas) as if they were an>
> agent (atta) that could cause an akusala to arise independently of
> the citta. Are taints operating independently with no connection with
> the citta at all? Where does an akusala arise -- inside the citta,
> outside it, or somewhere else?
>
-------------------------------------
Howard:
        Tep, sometimes agency terminology is difficult to avoid. What is
important, I think, is whether one is taken in by it. I suspect KenO is usually
not, though we all are on occasion.
------------------------------------
   Besides, do you believe that>
> "accumulation" is another independent agent that operates on its own?
> That sounds like a self !
>
> k:  taints are dormant in all cittas even in kusala citta.  They are
> like parasite :-).  They cause akusala to arise but dormant during
> kuasala citta.  I remember in one sutta, there is mentioning of
> Taints condition Ignorance.   I think there is good description of
> them in Useposts because I am not good in explaining them.   However
> accumulation is a function of citta even Ariyan also have them.

---------------------------------------
Howard:
        Ken, your description of "accumulations" lying dormant like awaiting
parasites is excellent conventional simile but shouldn't be taken literally.
Habits and inclinations arise and cease just like all else. They are events that
serve as conditions for actions and for subsequent arising of yet "the same"
so-called accumulations repeatedly in the future. We find it easy, all of us,
to be caught by our conventional "continuationist" terminology, and so we need
to be watchful, not so much of the terminology as of our mind.
---------------------------------------------

>
> >Tep: What you said is exactly the same as saying that the
> cetasikas
> >are the "chief" of all actions and the citta is their follower.  Do
> >kusala/akusala cetasikas control cittas? Are they 'atta', or
> >somewhat like the viruses that cause health problems in a human
> being?
>
> Tep: This Co. says that cetasikas exist in the citta and they are
> >dependent upon the citta. Further, it says that cetasikas (kusala,
> >akusala, feelings, volition, etc.) cannot arise without the
> >presence
> >of a citta. All this, I am sorry to say, contradicts to what you
> >explained earlier (above).
>
> k:  I think the distinction of the function should be clear.  Citta
> is chief does not mean citta is the mafia godfather where any member
> take instruction from.  Chief in the sense that without it, there is
> no arisen of cetasikas, chief in terms of being the one that cognise
> an object.
>
------------------------------------
Howard:
        Yes. Ken, I think that is exactly right, and well put.
-----------------------------------
    But this guy (citta) is a good chap, very obedient, it is>
> neither good or bad.  In fact it is always bully by the cetasikas.
> They are the one who tell this poor chap (citta) that they are going
> to be bad or good  One example is citta like water will be red or
> blue depend on what kind of colour powder that mixed with the water.
> We only say water is chief because without it there would not be
> colour water. However it is the colour powder that determines the
> type of colour and not the water.

-------------------------------------
Howard:
        This also is very good metaphor, but, again, care must be taken not to
be overly influenced by it. In actuality, citta isn't a container with
cetasikas "floating" in it ;-), nor is citta a substance like water that gets
colored. Citta is being aware, and the cetasikas are other, concomitant,
operations.
They act together harmoniously, in mutual dependence, but with consciousness
primary in the sense that no cetasika ever occurs without consciousness being
in effect.
-------------------------------------

>
>
> >Tep: Can you explain this quote in your own words, please?
> >Specifically, what does "it is gathered (citta) by kamma and
> >defilements" mean?
> >.....................
>
> k:  Gather in my own interpretation means accumulation, so the
> gathers by kamma and defilements is the acummulation of the kilesa
> that conditions the formations. Anyone is welcome to correct me :-)
>
>
> Cheers
> Ken O
>
>
=======================
With metta,
Howard


#60241	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 5:51 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & M... 	ashkenn2k 
 	

Hi Howard

Just like to discuss on at Time B

Howard:   At time B, everything that there was at time A is now
> utterly gone. The current object of consciousness is now a fresh
memory (or mind-constructed  replicate) of (aspects of) the mindstate
at time A, along with a recognition that the object then was a
pleasant warmth. One proviso on the mindstate at time  B when and if
it occurs, though: The memory-object is typically fuzzy,
> sketchy, and dim. That's the way I see it.

k:  If we are talking about sense process, the object will still be
warmth but the pleasant feeling is still the vedana that assocaitee
with the sense javana cittas that feels pleasant. Assuming that this
is the last citta of the sense process, then it could condition
pleasant feeling as an object in the mind door process, but still
again it is the vedana that associated with the mind door process
that feels that pleasant feelings.  Even if preception is involved,
it only notes that this warm object is pleasant, it still does not
feel plesant.



Cheers
Ken O


#60242	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 2:40 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & M... 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Ken -

In a message dated 6/7/06 8:53:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ashkenn2k@... writes:

> Hi Howard
>
> Just like to discuss on at Time B
>
> Howard:   At time B, everything that there was at time A is now
> >utterly gone. The current object of consciousness is now a fresh
> memory (or mind-constructed  replicate) of (aspects of) the mindstate
> at time A, along with a recognition that the object then was a
> pleasant warmth. One proviso on the mindstate at time  B when and if
> it occurs, though: The memory-object is typically fuzzy,
> >sketchy, and dim. That's the way I see it.
>
> k:  If we are talking about sense process, the object will still be
> warmth but the pleasant feeling is still the vedana that assocaitee
> with the sense javana cittas that feels pleasant. Assuming that this
> is the last citta of the sense process, then it could condition
> pleasant feeling as an object in the mind door process, but still
> again it is the vedana that associated with the mind door process
> that feels that pleasant feelings.
>
------------------------------------
Howard:
        I follow you. What I had in mind at time B is a mind-door process
engendered by the prior body-door process.
-----------------------------------
   Even if preception is involved,>
> it only notes that this warm object is pleasant, it still does not
> feel plesant.

----------------------------------
Howard:
        Yes, I agree. The sa~n~na is a recognition that the warmth was
pleasant but not a feeling of that warmth as pleasant. The activity of feeling
is
vedana.
--------------------------------

>
>
> Cheers
> Ken O
>
==================
With metta,
Howard

#60243	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 7:24 am 
Subject: FW: hi from phil 	nilovg 
 	

Dear friends,

Phil wants to be off line until the end of the year. (I tried to encourage
him, Sarah)
He asked me to post his messages with quotes from Ven. Dhammadharo.
I can also post to him your reactions.
----------
Van: "philip Coristine" <philco777@...>
Datum: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 13:26:16 +0000
Aan: vangorko@...
Onderwerp: hi from phil


   I am hearing wonderful things from the Phra Dhammadaro talks these days.
May I ask you to pass this on to the group, with the explanation that I have
gone cold turkey on internet? Thanks Nina. I think I will transcribe lots
and lots of talks in the months to come as my way of thanking everyone
involved in making them possible, starting with the Buddha, of course!

   Here it is:

   Phra Dh: ... control our defilements, and the desire to control is itself
a defilement

   Ph: This is a subtle defilement that is not seen by so many people. The
well known admonition to avoiding doing evil and do good is taken the wrong
way and turned into a self-help program. It is only by understanding
defilements that we can begin to eradicate them, and trying to have less of
them is *not* understanding them.

   Phra Dh: You were concerned about the difference between worry, say, and
anger. And you thought maybe that it was very important to be able to
separate them. Is it important to be able to telll the difference between
all the different kinds of dosa?

   Ph: I don't think it's important, unless it happens. We know that it is
not even as important to know the difference between kusala and akusala as
we always thought it was. As Acharn Sujin says "what good is it to know
kusala from akusala if it is not know that dhammas are not-self" or words to
that effect. I'm not completely convinced that useful and helpful
discrimination of kusala from akusala cannot arise before we know the
characteristics of dhammas to a deep degree, but as for different strains of
akusala, surely nothing is to be gained from trying to say this is anger,
this is worry, this is conceit. In one helpful simile, the Buddha's ability
to distinguish cittas and cetasikas is compared to being able to distinguish
the water from the salt that has been dissolved in it. It is beyond us. But
if it comes, it comes.

   Phra Dh: Usually this kind of concern we have, for knowing differences, is
just desire, and when we try to do it it's just a kind of thinking. It's not
development of awareness. It's true that in awareness we must know the
difference between different characteristics as they are. But they are not
know by trying to separate, because in reality there isn't anything to
separate. We do talk about separating realities, when we talk loosely. We
even talk about destroying the self, when we talk loosely. But in reality
there isn't a self to destroy, or break up. There is no spearating. There
are just these different realities. And if we think that we have a big
mixture there, of fear and worry, and anger as well, and we want to know
which is which, this will just condition more thinking, and more desire.
Because only one of those realities can ever appear at one time, when sati
is aware of it, only one. And it will not happen while we are trying to do
something, trying to separate, or select, or choose.

   We can only every be aware of one reality, not two, so we never have to
worry about awareness not doing it's job.

   Ph: Wow, Phra Dhammadaro rocks! He warns so lucidly against all the
straining, so much trying to figure things out. We must relax, and be
prepared to welcome awareness and understanding in the only way they can
come, to mind free of hungering and desiring and straining for awareness and
understanding.

   Phil

#60244	From: "m. nease" <mlnease@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 8:11 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness ouside 	mlnease 
 	

Hi Leo,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <leoaive@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness ouside

> THE RIGHT WAY IS WHEN SOMEONE ASKS AND MONK REPLY. WHAT IS NOW IS
> THE TALK WITHOUT BEING ASKED, WHICH IS WRONG DHAMMAS. IT IS WHAT IT
> IS.
> I THINK THAT IS WHY DHAMMA DISAPPEAR AND SOME PROBLEMS APPEAR,
> BECAUSE OF WRONG DHAMMAS EXISTANCE.

Right, a bhikkhu is very restricted in the circumstances under which he may
teach Dhamma (a few sekhiya rules below).  By custom, bhikkhus of only a few
rains usually don't teach either.  How these rules do or don't apply to
ordained bhikkhus who broadcast their views on the internet is I suppose a
matter of opinion.

I'm aware of no such precepts--outside of the proscription of wrong speech,
with its implications--regarding the discussion of Dhamma by laypeople.  I
certainly agree though that the teaching of wrong dhammas (wrong view)
besides being a terrible kamma itself is also why, as you say, DHAMMA
DISAPPEAR AND SOME PROBLEMS APPEAR.

Cheers,
mike

57. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick and has an
umbrella in his hand. (7-6-7)
58. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick and has a
staff in his hand. (7-6-8)
59. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick and has a
knife in his hand. (7-6-9)
60. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick and has a
weapon in his hand. (7-6-10)
7.7. Paduka Vagga
61. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick, wearing
wooden soled sandal. (7-7-1)
62. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick wearing
footwear. (7-7-2)
63. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick in a
vehicle. (7-7-3)
64. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick on a couch.
(7-7-4)
65. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick and sit
grasping the knee. (7-7-5)
66. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick wearing a
headwrapping. (7-7-6)
67. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick whose head
is covered. (7-7-7)
68. A bhikkhu, while sitting on the ground, shall not teach Dhamma to a
person who is not sick sitting on a seat. (7-7-8)
69. A bhikkhu, while sitting on a low seat, shall not teach Dhamma to a
person who is not sick sitting on a high seat. (7-7-9)
70. A bhikkhu, while standing shall not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who
is not sick. (7-7-10)
71. A bhikkhu shall not teach Dhamma to a person who is not sick ahead of
him walking. (7-7-11)
72. A bhikkhu, while walking beside a path, shall not teach Dhamma to a
person who is not sick walking on the path. (7-7-12)


#60245	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 10:47 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience, perfections. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Han (and Christine at the end),
op 07-06-2006 02:10 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

Han: When I posted my messages at the other forum I
was not even a member of DSG and I had not yet been to
the session in the Foundation. When I said “I have
deleted them from my files because I did not hear what
I wanted to hear from others”, I was referring to the
response from other members of that forum.

------------------------------

N: I like to listen anyway to your old record. The yes
and no: Sarah said that there is no need for
agreement.

Han: What do you mean by “The yes and no”?
------
N: I was referring to debates containing agreements and disagreements, but
it is not all that important. I find it useful that Sarah reminds us that
there is no need for
agreement. It helps us not to take too much to heart what others say, we do
our best.

As to chahaakaarehi, you were right. akaara is mode, and chahi
(instrumentalis)+akaara becomes chahaakaara, and then the ending ehi: in six
modes.
Something adding to Ven. Dhammanando's reference to the subco Diigha
Nikaaya: I understand that there were these six inclinations in his later
lives. But, it is also true that the Bodhisatta never stopped accumulating
all the perfections until his attainment of Buddhahood. And another matter:
all ten perfections are interrelated.
We should see the connection between them, as I see it.
****
Nina.


#60246	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 10:47 am 
Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 5. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Friends,

This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel
251/253:
<'Delusion', according to the commentary, 'is a great fault for both reason,
that is, in the eyes of public opinion and with regard to its unhappy
kamma-result (in the same ways as mentioned above for hatred). If an action
is done under the impact of delusion, such action will set man free only
very slowly; it can be likened to bear skin, which will not become bright
even if washed seven times.....
Without the presence of delusion, no greed or hatred can arise. The
unwholesome roots of greed and hatred always occur associated with delusion.
Delusion, however, may occur by itself and can be a very powerful source of
evil and suffering. In view of that omnipresence of delusion in the
unwholesome, the Dhammapada says that there is no entanglement equal to the
widespread net of delusion (v. 251), and that ignorance (a synonym of
delusion) is the greatest taint of the mind (v. 243). Hence the Buddha
declares: 'All unwholesome states have their root in ignorance, they
converge upon ignorance, and by the abolishment of ignorance, all the other
unwholesome states are abolished' (SAMYUTTA NIKAYA 20:1). >

*****
Nina.


#60247	From: Illusion <vvhite_illusion@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 10:45 am 
Subject: Q & A by Maya Putra 	vvhite_illusion 
 	

Questions and Answers:



If Buddhism promotes Dana (generous acts of giving), then why are most
Buddhist countries so poor?

- Suffering is the prerequisite to wanting to give or attaining
enlightenment.  One has to experience what it means to suffer before
one can sympathize and understand the pain or sorrow that another
person is experiencing.  Only then can one develop compassion and the
willingness to give.  If one were happy and not suffering now, then
what motivation would he/she have to improve the condition of his/her
life?  The difference between Hawaii and Burma is that Hawaiians are
the least likely to go to the temple because they're busy surfing the
waves.  Burmese, on the other hand, are more willing to go to the
temple because of their sociopolitical and environmental conditions.
Only after a person has experienced suffering would one turn to
Dhamma.

Why should one go to the temple?

- Why does one eat?  One eats to support the body of course.  What
about the mind?  The mind also needs food.  Going to the temple is
like food for the mind.  Like the body, without food our minds will
become weak and malnourished.  When the mind is down, the body cannot
function well. Going to the temple gives one inner-happiness,
contentment, a sense of peace and harmony within oneself.  Once in
seven days, one can take a break from all the stress and fast-paced
routine of everyday life.  Going to the temple also gives moral
support in the continuation of one's practice.

If the Buddha was compassionate why did he leave his wife and child?

- The Buddha's compassion extends beyond his wife and child.  He felt
compassion towards all the beings in the universe.  He left his wife
and child for the greater good of all beings, to find a cure to
suffering, a disease all beings experience, including his wife and
child.  So leaving his wife and child was one of the most
compassionate acts the Buddha has ever performed.





--
[]\/[][]D (Maya Putra)
"I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is
subject to change, decay, and unsatisfaction."


#60248	From: "indriyabala" <indriyabala@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:16 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & Mind 	indriyabala 
 	

Hi Ken O.,-

I enjoyed reading your analogies (similes) about the functions of
citta and cetasikas-- as seen through your perspective. I think we
both did well in expressing our beliefs and, most of all, we had a
good & friendly discussion.

Thank you very much for being a kind and reasonable person. [:-|).


Sincerely,

your friend Tep.

=========

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tep
>
> > Tep: Then how can you abstain from killing?
(snipped)
>
> > Tep: Can you explain this quote in your own words, please?
> > Specifically, what does "it is gathered (citta) by kamma and
> > defilements" mean?
> > .....................
>
> k:  Gather in my own interpretation means accumulation, so the
> gathers by kamma and defilements is the acummulation of the kilesa
> that conditions the formations. Anyone is welcome to correct me :-)
>
>
> Cheers
> Ken O
>


#60249	From: "indriyabala" <indriyabala@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:47 am 
Subject: Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & M... 	indriyabala 
 	

Hi Howard (and Ken O.), -

You have rightly made a caution that everything bolis down to just
conditioned dhammas (dukkha) that arise and pass away.

>Howard:
>Tep, sometimes agency terminology is difficult to avoid. What is
important, I think, is whether one is taken in by it. I suspect KenO
is usually not, though we all are on occasion. ...Habits and
inclinations arise and cease just like all else. They are events that
serve as conditions for actions and for subsequent arising of yet "the
same" so-called accumulations repeatedly in the future. We find it
easy, all of us, to be caught by our conventional "continuationist"
terminology, and so we need to be watchful, not so much of the
terminology as of our mind.
------------------------------------

I believe that Ken is also aware of the middle-way truth of the
Paticcasamuppada, the same way that both of us do, i.e. that khandhas
  when they are arising, it is just dukkha arising; and when they are
passing away, it  is dukkha that is passing away.[SN 12.15]

Thank you for being patient with me for and your (online) friendship
over the past few years.  {:-|>


Best wishes,


Tep
===
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:
>
> Hi, Ken (and Tep) -
>
(snipped)

> > >Tep: I don't understand how taints "cause akusala to arise",
> > >because Taints are kilesa, so they are already akusala. Without
> > cooperation of the citta how can taints just cause akusala to rise
> > in the citta?
> >
> -----------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Tep, the taints are activities that occur. They don't occur
without
> consciousness, but the consciousness itself is just being conscious.
That is
> "its" entire function.
> ------------------------------------
>   You talk about taints (kilesas, asavas) as if they were an>
> > agent (atta) that could cause an akusala to arise independently of
> > the citta. Are taints operating independently with no connection with
> > the citta at all? Where does an akusala arise -- inside the citta,
> > outside it, or somewhere else?
> >
> -------------------------------------


#60250	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:55 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	nilovg 
 	

Hi Ken O and Sukin,
I hope Sukin can add something.
op 07-06-2006 07:38 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@...:


Could you help Sukin to explain one of my question

> <Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the
> Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. The
> object of the citta at that moment is `concept', different from
> when it is patipatti, where the object is a characteristic of a
reality appearing through one of the six doorways.>

K: I think to there should be a good distinction here, an object can
be a concept but that does not imply that paripatti is developing
conceptual samma dithi.  Our understanding or intellectualising can
be conceptual but it does not mean there is such thing as conceptual
samma dithi.
-----------
N: No, we agree that samma dithi, paññaa, is a reality, a dhamma, not a
concept. And I would rather speak here of understanding instead of
sammaditthi. But in the beginning there can be correct understanding of what
is taught in books about dhammas.
At first we learn about citta, cetasika and ruupa and we only know the
names, and these are concepts that represent realities. There is some
understanding, that is paññaa. Paññaa can also be intellectual
understanding, right, correct understanding of what is in the books, in the
abhidhamma, but this deals with paramattha dhammas, not with tables or
trees.
Then there can be a development, understanding begins to learn more about
the seeing that is appearing now, or the visible object that is appearing
now.
If I understand Sukin rightly, he wants to explain that pariyatti is more
then just knowing names, it already understands the dhamma appearing now. We
do not call this yet patipatti, it is a beginning.
-------
K:  To me this is important as it is the paramathas that
will develop the path and not concept.  Hence pariyatti still hold
the idea that samma dithi is a paramatha even though our panna is
low.
------
N: Paramattha dhammas are the objects of sammaditthi which is already of the
level of patipatti.
-------

Sukin: > Obviously the same concept can be wrongly understood, so in this
> case, even though accumulated data as knowledge may be the same,
there is no panna involved, so this would *not* be called pariyatti.
One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma
> arising in the present moment. Also it is not something that a
`self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other
conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting
conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly.

k:  Please kindly explain what is knowledge here because when we use
knowlegde, we tends to equate panna.
------
N: Just knowledge about citta, all the processes, being able to enumerate
them, does not mean that there is paññaa that understands them.
We listened to two bright kids in Bodhgaya who learnt the Abhidhamma by
heart, but when we asked them about dosa in daily life they did not know
anything.
Is there anything which is not yet clear?
Nina.


#60251	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:55 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Roots of Good and Evil. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Scott,
op 07-06-2006 14:32 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...:

N: "Not latent in a given citta, but latent in the stream of cittas
arising and falling away in the cycle of birth and death."
S: ... Abhidhammika noted two terms:  "pave.nisambandhavasena"
and "pave.nivasena;" the former meaning something like "by means of
serial linking," the latter, I think, "serial arisings." ... the latency of
aspects of citta "resides" or is a function of the stream of cittas
itself.  Can you say more of this?
--------
N: Each citta that arises and falls away conditions by way of
proximity-condition the arising of the following citta, there never is a
pause in between them.
The citta with dosa falls away, but the dosa is accumulated from moment to
moment, it is not lost, but goes on as a latent tendency. It does not stay
the same, more is added to it when akusala citta with dosa arises again. Or,
by paññaa it can be worn away. The non-returner has eradicated it.
--------
N: .... When fast
asleep we do not harm anybody, but when we wake up akusala citta is
likely to arise again. Where does it come from, since we just woke up
from sleep? This shows that there is still the latent tendency of
akusala that conditions it."

S: This reminds me of how bhavanga citta has links to past life object,
if I have understood correctly.
-------
N: The bhavangacitta has the same object as the rebirth-consciousness and
this is the same as the last javanacittas of the past life.
------
S:This stream of cittas must play a
large part in what we are discussing.
-----
N: They arise in between the processes and in this way keep the continuity
in the life of an individual with all his latent tendencies and accumulated
inclinations.
The series of cittas is not broken, the bhavanga-cittas see to that.
--------
N: ...
"The Visuddhimagga, in the explanation about Purity by Knowledge and
Vision (Ch XXII, 81-86), gives an additional explication about arisen
in the sense of having obtained a soil.
It states: 'While unprofitable [kamma] is still unabolished in any
given soil [plane], it is called arisen by having soil [to grow in].'
This refers to the latent tendencies that lie dormant in the citta."

S.: The soil, then, is the way of describing the "medium for growth."
------
N: Ven. Nyanaponika, Abh. Studies (p. 121): < having obtained a soil, that
is, a fertile soil, for the actual arising. > He refers to the soil of the
khandhas impregnated with potential defilements.
---------
S:  I see that soil is made synonymous with "plane" ,
------
N: The word bhumi is used, but in another meaning as plane of existence.
------
S: and tied in with kamma
and vipakka.
------
N: I do not see this.
------
S:You point out also that latent tendency is better
understood as conditions.
------
N: they condiiton the arising of akusala citta.
****
Nina.



#60252	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 8:05 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives ... Feeling & M... 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Tep -

In a message dated 6/7/06 2:54:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
indriyabala@... writes:

> Thank you for being patient with me for and your (online) friendship
> over the past few years.
======================
        Who am *I* to be patient with *you*? I could just as well thank you
for being patient with me!
        Good friends in the Dhamma are a treasure, as are friends ... period.
I thank you for your friendship as well! :-)

With metta,
Howard



#60253	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 2:36 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience, perfections. 	hantun1 
 	

Dear Nina,

Thank you very much for your kind explanations.

I wrote my posts on “Dying Moments” as far back as
December 2002 in one forum. (I remember this date
because it was my very first exposure to Dhamma
Discussion Groups on the internet.) I repeated them in
another forum about a year or two later. (I do not
remember the exact dates now.) But now I cannot find
these old records. You will not believe me (Tep knows
very well my computer expertise!), I still do not know
how to open Files in the computer. I keep the
information in floppy diskettes. They are not
catalogued and I can loose them very easily.
Therefore, I have lost my old records but I will write
them again.

One thing I would like to request you and other
members is to have patience with me because I will be
quoting passages from the books before I write my
thoughts and conclusions. You all may be very familiar
with those quotes, but please bear with me because my
later thoughts and conclusions will be based on those
quotes.

I will write them under a subject title of “Dying
Moments.”.

Respectfully,
Han


#60254	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 2:56 pm 
Subject: note from Phil 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Phil asked me to f/w this message to the list.
***********************************************

   Hi all

     My dead-end job is really draining me these days, making it so hard
to find time and energy to work on my writing projects. It really is
time to stop using the internet completely to save a wee bit of time
and energy (clinging rooted in lobha and moha, I know) so I'll be
signing off DSG until I make some progress in other areas. (I know I've
said that before! :)

    This is not a reflection on any DSG-related discontent or anything
like that - just an end to using the internet for awhile. Looking
forward to seeing friends in Bangkok in January! (Only progress in
other areas will make that possible.)

    Best of luck to everyone with your Dhamma paths.

    Phil


#60255	From: "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 5:47 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	matheesha333 
 	

Hi Kel, Howard, Saraha, KenH,

Thank you all for commenting on this matter. Bringing in the visuddhis
was excellent to clarify  the matter further.

Many years ago I remember reading a sutta, possibly from the SN and it
spoke of a progression in the following manner (I memorised it because
it was so good!):

Knowledge of arising and passing away/udaya-vaya nana (leading to)
revulsion/nibbida (leading to) magga (leading to) release/vimukti.

Unfortunately I have not come across it since and my source is not
available to me currently.

Now while the suttas mention the 7 visuddhi in two places, I believe
their descriptions come from the commentaries.  But interestingly the
above sutta seems to lie somewhat parallel to those descriptions. I hope
I will come across it again!

While the commentarial explanation of what is included in the visuddis
incorporates the idea of magga-citta and phala-citta, there is no clear
mention of those two entities, and that they happen immediately after
each other,  in the suttas.

On the otherhand what is mentioned is a 'magga' which seems to happen
somewhat apart from reaching a phala state.

Is it reasonable to assume that there is two maggas? One which occures
at the 'maggamagganana' point  and one at 'magga-citta' point? I think
it is more reasonable to assume that there is only one magga,
considering other evidence from the suttas, dakkinavibhanga sutta
included (I remember reading another (lost!) sutta where a man proudly
says he gives dana to only arahantha maggas, when the buddha corrects
him and says that giving it to the sangha as a whole is better).  Either
view is a harmless. Perhaps the bigger issue is the accuracy of the
commentaries, or the completeness of the suttas.

I think we also need to consider that someone who is a sotapanna magga
cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is not a
mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place anyone and
everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.

Perhaps we have gone as far as we can in this? :)

with metta

Matheesha






--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" <kelvin_lwin@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Howard (KenH),
>
> > H: the contrary, the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta satisfies me
> completely as to the
> > truth of a view quite the opposite of the contiguity of path &
> fruit.
>
> Kel: Perhaps look at this from another perspective using seven
> visuddhis.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/Purification.html
>
> As you know 5th one is Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What
> Is Path and Not-Path (maggamagga-ñanadassana-visuddhi). Here we can
> see that the Path has to be clearly known and seen already. The
> rest is walking along the way, as Nina said in #29236:
>
> Pali: pa.tipanno: pa.tipajjati: to go along a path.
>
> So knowing the path and obtaining the fruit are quite separated as
> you said. After Purification by Knowledge and Vision (ñanadassana-
> visuddhi), and becoming a sotapanna the person has to strive again
> toward higher paths and fruitions. They can stand pat and just
> enjoy the already obtained fruit also, this is always a possibility,
> think Visakha. When they do start again, because three fetters are
> already destroyed, Purification of View (ditthi-visuddhi) is already
> accomplished. They would start at Purification by Overcoming Doubt
> (kankha-vitarana-visuddhi) (according to theory). Thus the 5th
> visuddhi has to be obtained again in order to be considered "on the
> Path" which distinguish a normal Sotapanna and the one actively
> striving toward Sakadagami.
>
> Now let's look at the list, you skipped one:
>
> 9. Sotapanna
> 10. striving for Sotapatti Fruition
> 11. When Buddha's Teaching is absent, to one who lives detached from
> sensual pleasures [meant attained jhanas]
> 12. common worldling who is endowed with morality
> 13. common worldling who is without morality
> 14. animal is the fourteenth
>
> So normally we have sila, samadhi, panna. It makes sense in a way
> that mundane achievements in all those are represented. With 12 =
> sila, 11 = samadhi and 10 = panna then realization of the
> supramundane is at 9. Thus, 9 and 10 are only possible in sasana
> which make sense since 11th is normally best achievable outside
> (excluding pacceka-Buddhas). So if you think about the type of
> people you can encounter during all possible rebirths and given a
> chance for dana, it matches up. I'm sure you are not convinced but
> I at least hope to have shown that there is some logical reason
> behind reading it in Abhidhamma consistent way.
>
> - Kel
>
> ps in #29223, Steve gives translation from Puggala-Pannati of
> definition in path/fruition
>


#60256	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 7:34 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	ashkenn2k 
 	

Hi Nina

> -----------
> N: No, we agree that samma dithi, paññaa, is a reality, a dhamma,
> not a concept. And I would rather speak here of understanding
instead of sammaditthi. But in the beginning there can be correct
> understanding of what is taught in books about dhammas.  At first
we learn about citta, cetasika and ruupa and we only know the
> names, and these are concepts that represent realities. There is
> some understanding, that is paññaa. Paññaa can also be intellectual
> understanding, right, correct understanding of what is in the
> books, in the abhidhamma, but this deals with paramattha dhammas,
not with tables or trees. If I understand Sukin rightly, he wants to
explain that pariyatti is more then just knowing names, it already
understands the dhamma appearing now. We do not call this yet
patipatti, it is a beginning.
___________

k:  I dont think I disagree with you.  But I think the problem is the
way we present it.  I give you two examples on one hand in the first
sentence you equate samma dithi as panna, then later on you prefer to
use understanding to explain.  I think there is no such thing as
correct understanding without panna = samma dithi (in mundane sense).
  By doing that we only add to the confusion of the reader. What I am
saying that we should view or intellectualising samma dithi as
paramatha and not some kind of conceptual samma dithi even though we
did not see it.


N <At first we learn about citta, cetasika and ruupa and we only know
the names, and these are concepts that represent realities. There is
some understanding, that is paññaa.>

k:  I think the problem is that it is confusing some people on one
hand we are telling others concepts is illusion will not help us in
the development (this is very prominent when we talk about
satipatthana), then on the other hand we say that citta etc these are
names and concepts that represents realities.  We should be
consistent we should always said that they are view as paramathas
even though our level of understanding still did not see them as
paramathas. Once we reach patipatti, it will be know.


k:  If I am too forthright or insensitive (which sometimes I do), I
am very sorry.



Cheers
Ken O


#60257	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 3:45 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Matheesha -

In a message dated 6/7/06 8:48:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dhammachat@... writes:

> I think we also need to consider that someone who is a sotapanna magga
> cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is not a
> mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place anyone and
> everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.
>
======================
        I agree completely with that!

With metta,
Howard


#60258	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 8:06 pm 
Subject: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear All,

I've read the terms "mundane" and "supramundane" many times, in
reference to various things; I think the Pali renders it "lokiya" and
"lokuttara."

In thinking about it I realise that I don't really know enough about
the distinction between the two, especially in relation to what seems
to be an experiential gradation within practise.

Might I ask for your assistance in learning more about this?

Sincerely,

Scott.

#60259	From: Illusion <vvhite_illusion@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 8:43 pm 
Subject: Questions and Answers 	vvhite_illusion 
 	

Dear all,

The reason I'm writing this question and answers is for a Buddhist
Website.  If any of you have any questions and answers you would like
to contribute, feel free.  Or if you have some real questions, feel
free to ask.  Or if you have any comments to contribute to my answers,
feel free to do so.

Metta,

--
[]\/[][]D (Maya Putra)
"I am nothing but the constituents of the clinging aggregates that is
subject to change, decay, and unsatisfaction."


#60260	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 9:29 pm 
Subject: Dying Moments - 1 	hantun1 
 	

Dying Moments – 1

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

I am writing these posts to know exactly what happens
just before a person dies, and what can be done to
have a favorable rebirth at the next life. In so
doing, I will be quoting a series of extracts on which
I will base my thoughts and conclusions later on.

The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

In Chapter V on Vithimut, there are four groups of
fours as follows.

Fourfold Catukkas.

‘Catukka’ means ‘a group of four’. The fourfold
catukkas are:
(a) Bhuumi-catukka, four planes of existence.
(b) Patisandhi-catukka, four modes of rebirth.
(c) Kamma-catukka, four kinds of action.
(d) Maranuppatti-catukka, fourfold advent of death.

----------

Out of these four groups, the subject matter which I
am writing concerns with groups (c) and (d).
First, let us see group (c).

(c) Kamma-catukka, four kinds of action.

(1) kicca-kamma catukka, with respect to function.
(2) paakadaanapariyaaya-kamma catukka, with respect to
priority in bearing results.
(3) paakakaala-kamma catukka, with respect to the time
of taking effect.
(4) pakathaana-kamma catukka, with respect to the
place where the kammic effect takes place.

----------

Again, out of these four kinds of action, the subject
matter concerns with No. (2).

(2) paakadaanapariyaaya-kamma catukka, with respect to
priority in bearing results.

(i) garuka-kamma, weighty kammas.
(ii) aasanna-kamma, death-proximate kamma that is
performed or remenmbered just before death.
(iii) aacinna-kamma, habitual kamma which is performed
regularly, or it may be a kamma which is performed
once, and is recollected and remembered all the time.
(iv) katattaa-kamma, unspecified kamma which is done
once and soon forgotten.

Garuka-kamma or weighty kamma is so strong that no
other kamma can stop its function in the next life. In
other words, it certainly produces its results in the
next life. Bad weighty kammas are: creating a schism
in the Sangha, wounding of the Buddha, murdering an
arahant, matricide, and patricide.
Niyata-micchaaditthi, permanent false view is also one
of the bad weighty kammas. On the other hand, 5
ruupaavacara-kusla kammas and 4 aruupaavacara-kusala
kammas are good weighty kammas. Lokuttara-magga is
also a weighty force that closes the doors of the four
apaaya abodes for ever.

If we do not have any garuka-kamma, which is often the
case, then we must rely on aasanna-kamma to condition
our next life. To get a good aasanna-kamma, sons and
daughters or relatives and friends should arrange
wholesome deeds such as offering robes to monks or
listening to Dhamma-preaching for the person on his or
her death-bed. The dying person should also be
reminded of his past good deeds.

To be sure to get a good aasanna-kamma, however, we
should develop an aacinna-kamma while we are alive.
The best aacinna-kamma is tranquility or insight
meditation which can be performed all the time. When
it becomes habitual, it will be remembered and
practiced near the time of death.

------------------------------

To be continued.

Respectfully,
Han


#60261	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:01 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 
 	

Hey Scott,

>  I've read the terms "mundane" and "supramundane" many times, in
>  reference to various things; I think the Pali renders it "lokiya" and
>  "lokuttara."
>
>  In thinking about it I realise that I don't really know enough about
>  the distinction between the two, especially in relation to what seems
>  to be an experiential gradation within practise.
>
>  Might I ask for your assistance in learning more about this?

I can tell you the little I believe to be true.

The term lokuttara, when used in reference to paths and fruitions,
does not occur in the Suttas. The dualistic model of this world and
the supramundane one is not a teaching device the Buddha used, best as
I can tell.

Kind Regards


Herman


#60262	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 9:25 pm 
Subject: Endowed with Wisdom ?!? 	bhikkhu_ekamuni 
 	

Friends:

The Mental Hindrances lead only to Neglect & Ruin:

The Blessed Buddha once said:
One whose mind is dominated by uncontrolled greed, lust, desire, envy or
jealously
will do what should not be done and neglect what should be done! As a
consequence
of that, his good reputation is lost and his contentment and happiness falls
into ruin.
Exactly and even so with anyone whose mind is overwhelmed by grumbling
evil-will...
or overcome, slowed down & stagnated by the hindrance of lethargy & laziness...
or agitated, scattered, and worried by the hindrance of restlessness & regret...
or perplexed, confused and bewildered by the hindrance of doubt & uncertainty...
Such one will do what should not be done, while neglecting what should be done.
As a
result of that, his good name & status is lost & he is ruined by depressed
discontent.
But if any Noble Disciple has seen these five as contaminated pollutions of the
mind,
then he will gradually overcome & eliminate them. When doing so, he becomes
known
as one of deep understanding, of rich knowledge, clear-sighted, endowed with
wisdom.
This lack of mental hindrance is indeed exactly what is called endowment with
wisdom!

       Source (edited extract):
       The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya.
       The Book of Fours 61: Four deeds of Merit... [II: 67]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.



#60263	From: Ng Boon Huat <mr39515@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:01 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q & A by Maya Putra 	mr39515 
 	

Dear Bro and Sis of the Dhamma...

Hi there... I don't agree with the answers given.
Please see my respond below:


--- Illusion <vvhite_illusion@...> wrote:

> Questions and Answers:
>
>
>
> If Buddhism promotes Dana (generous acts of giving),
> then why are most
> Buddhist countries so poor?
STEVen: Buddhism and any other religion promotes Dana.
In fact, during the time before the Buddha, a lot of
people already knew how to do Dana. Dana is a double
sword activities which promote -
1. Going into Samsara (world of suffering) or
2. Out of Samsara (leading to enlightenment)
The results of Dana is richness but do you know how to
do Dana? Or what Dana will bring what results? There
are a lot of conditions involved which will decide the
result of the act of Dana. Some example are -
1. Size of Dana and type of Dana
2. The receiver (how important of the receiver to the
world)
3. Feeling before, during and after the act of Dana
4. Whether prompted or not
5. Thought when performing dana etc.
Thus doing dana will lead to richness if one do it
correctly. So why do Buddhist country so poor? I think
it is more to political and economical reason (and to
some extend community Kamma as well). There are also
Buddhist who live in a Buddhist country (which you
think is poor) and are very rich. Come to think about
it, the West do perform better Dana in term of size or
based on compassion feeling compare to asian. We can't
blame them as Dana is known by everyone (since it is
so basic).  If you plan to put this question into a
website, I think you should rephase it.


>
> - Suffering is the prerequisite to wanting to give
> or attaining
> enlightenment.

STEVen: Suffering is not the prerequisite. The 3 roots
(Generosity, Loving Kindness and Wisdom) is the
prerequisite for enlightenment. There is many
suffering in the world and they just continue to
suffer and suffer. If suffering is the prerequisite,
then hell beings should be the first to attain
enlightenment. So it does not make any sense, does it?
For one to attain enlightenment, one does not
neccessary need to see suffering. Seeing happiness
also can provide condition for enlightenment.


> One has to experience what it means
> to suffer before
> one can sympathize and understand the pain or sorrow
> that another
> person is experiencing.  Only then can one develop
> compassion and the
> willingness to give.
STEVen: Does this means the rich do not give? I don't
think so. It is not suffering that lead to Dana.
Non-attachment lead to Dana thus everyone can give.
For the case of Compassion, experience Suffering will
lead to the arises of Compassion (this I agree).
Willingess to Give (or Dana) and Compassion is 2
different Mental Properties. They arises by themselves
when the conditions arises.

> If one were happy and not
> suffering now, then
> what motivation would he/she have to improve the
> condition of his/her
> life?
STEVen: I think the rich would want to maintain being
rich or getting richer. This is craving and exist in
all layman. The poor would also crave for richness
thus both rich and poor would want to do dana
(provided they know how). In summary wisdom plays more
important role in this scenario. If one knows that the
result of Dana is richness, everyone (rich and poor)
will want to perform Dana. If one don't have such
knowledge, no one will perform Dana.

> The difference between Hawaii and Burma is
> that Hawaiians are
> the least likely to go to the temple because they're
> busy surfing the
> waves.  Burmese, on the other hand, are more willing
> to go to the
> temple because of their sociopolitical and
> environmental conditions.
STEVen: No doubts that Hawaii has less temples compare
to Burma but does it mean that those goes to temple
are truly Buddhist. Buddhist only go to the triple gem
(Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) for refuge or protection.


> Only after a person has experienced suffering would
> one turn to
> Dhamma.
STEVen: I believe it is Conditions and one own Kamma
that leads one to find Buddhism thus one will turn to
the Triple Gem for refuge. One can be born in other
religion (and could be rich and having a pleasant
lives) but with the right conditions, one could turn
to Buddhism. By the way, other religions also uses
suffering to convert our own Buddhist (or so called
Buddhist) members. So it is not suffering that one
turn to Buddhism and Dhamma.

>
> Why should one go to the temple?
STEVen: One goes to temple to learn and practice
Dhamma. However that doesn't mean that outside, one
can not practice Dhamma. We basically start at Temples
are temples are more condusive to learn and practice.
When one is more stable, one should go out to face the
8 worldly conditions.

>
> - Why does one eat?  One eats to support the body of
> course.  What
> about the mind?  The mind also needs food.  Going to
> the temple is
> like food for the mind.  Like the body, without food
> our minds will
> become weak and malnourished.  When the mind is
> down, the body cannot
> function well.
STEVen: Buddhism is not meant to be practiced at
Temple only. One can practices Buddhism even with out
going to temples. Buddhist takes refuge in the Triple
Gems and not Temples. I do agree that it is easier to
practice and learn at Temples as temples suppose to be
the place to teach Dhammas. So going to Temples is
good but as Buddhists, we must valuate whether this is
a suitable temple to go to. I surely will reject any
temples which practices the wrong things.


> Going to the temple gives one
> inner-happiness,
> contentment, a sense of peace and harmony within
> oneself.  Once in
> seven days, one can take a break from all the stress
> and fast-paced
> routine of everyday life.  Going to the temple also
> gives moral
> support in the continuation of one's practice.
STEVen: Just to add that we Buddhist should go to
temple to learn Dhamma and practice what we learn and
not doing something else. So please no direct selling
at temples etc.

>
> If the Buddha was compassionate why did he leave his
> wife and child?
>
> - The Buddha's compassion extends beyond his wife
> and child.  He felt
> compassion towards all the beings in the universe.
> He left his wife
> and child for the greater good of all beings, to
> find a cure to
> suffering, a disease all beings experience,
> including his wife and
> child.  So leaving his wife and child was one of the
> most
> compassionate acts the Buddha has ever performed.
STEVen: There is one item you miss out. The Buddha
also evaluate and find the his family is in good care
of the palace thus He can renounce the world with out
the needs to worry about their well being. We lay
people who wish to renounce the world also need to
make sure that all our dependant is well taken off
before we can make the commitment to renounce the
world.
>

Metta
STEVen



#60264	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:35 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Long Live Noble Atheism -- Re: Authority 	egberdina 
 	

>
> Dear Herman,
>
>  H:  "How goes the Stanley Cup?"
>
>  Brutal!  Game one loss, goalie out for the series, new goalie messes
>  up and allows the winning goal.  Please trot out any and all useless
>  sports cliches now.

Why, those 'canes couldn't hit their way out of a wet paper bag!

Kind Regards

Herman


#60265	From: "ken_aitch" <ken_aitch@...> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 11:54 pm 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	ken_aitch 
 	

Hi Scott,

I was thinking, just this morning, that I didn't really like the term
'mundane' as a description of satipatthana. It means 'not
supramundane' but it can give the impression of banality, which, of
course, it is not intended to do.

Supramundane path factors (of the ariyan eightfold path) are so-called
because, unlike anything in normal consciousness, they effect the
permanent cessation of conditioned dhammas. This destruction begins at
Stream Entry with wrong view, doubt and envy (and maybe some others I
can't think of at the moment).

The same path factors arise in the non-supramundane path moments
(satipatthana) where they work to seriously curtail the defiling
cetasikas. However, they can't quite polish them off.

Corrections welcome.

Ken H

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> I've read the terms "mundane" and "supramundane" many times, in
> reference to various things; I think the Pali renders it "lokiya" and
> "lokuttara."
>
> In thinking about it I realise that I don't really know enough about
> the distinction between the two, especially in relation to what seems
> to be an experiential gradation within practise.
>
> Might I ask for your assistance in learning more about this?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Scott.
>


#60266	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 1:40 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Howard & Matheesha (Kel & Ken H),

--- upasaka@... wrote:

> Hi, Matheesha -
M:> > I think we also need to consider that someone who is a sotapanna
magga
> > cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is not a
> > mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place anyone and
> > everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.
> >
> ======================
H:>        I agree completely with that!
.....
S: I don't think there has been any suggestion of lokuttara phala cittas
being represented by any 'mundane level of practice'. What has been
suggested is that:

a) Phala cittas follow the magga citta in question in succession, without
any interval (as we commonly read in the Vism and other texts)

b) In the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta, we are given a list of 'Fourteen kinds of
personal offerings' in order of merit, starting with the greatest gifts
being to a Tathagata and the smallest gifts being to an animal. In this
list, some of us think it's significant that 'one wha has entered upon the
way to the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry' is below the
stream-enterer and so for the other ariyan stages.

In other words, as the commentary suggests (I believe), the 'one who has
entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry' is
not a sotapanna, but is next down in the list, i.e those developing
insight/vipassana.

If this understanding is not correct and the reference is (as you suggest)
to those who are sotapannas on the way to realising fruition (phala
cittas), how do you understand the following lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi
transl):

"Herein, Ananda, by giving a gift to an animal, the offering may be
expected to repay a hundredfold. By giving a gift to an immoral ordinary
person......a thousandfold. ....to a virtuous ordinary person.....a
hundred-thousandfold.......to one outside (the Dispensation) who is free
from lust for sensual pleasures......a hundred-thousand times a
hundred-thousandfold.

"By giving a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation
of the fruit of stream-entry, the offering may be expected to repay
incaluculably, immeasurably. What then, should be said about giving a gift
to a stream-enterer? What should be said about giving a gift to one who
has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of
once-return..........Tathagata......."
....
S: Doesn't it strike you as odd that in the context of this sutta that an
offering to a stream-enterer is unmentionable as compared to the already
immeasurable greatness of the offering to the one on 'the way to the
realisation of the fruit of stream-entry' and so on for the other classes?

This is all just from the sutta itself - is the reading suggesting
'fruition' occurs at a later time, i.e not immediately following
attainment of path consciousness really so obvious here?

Also Howard, following a comment you made in another post on what is meant
by 'path' in context, I think the sutta and commentary quote to AN 4, 170
which Matheesha and I discussed recently may be relevant here as well.
(From #60151):

>>"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by
> tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the
> path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he
> follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
> abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Yuganaddha Sutta
....
S: B.Bodhi's translation is similar, but he adds a helpful footnote:

" 'The path' (magga) is the first supramundane path, that of stream-entry.
To 'develop that path', according to AA [S: the commentary], means to
practice for the attainment of the three higher paths."
....
S:In other words, the first sotapatti magga citta arises which eradicates
the first set of fetters, (immediately followed by the phala cittas, the
immediate fruit of the supramundane eightfold path). Satipatthana is
further developed until the next supramundane magga and phala cittas arise
and so on up 'til arahantship, when the last fetters are eradicated as we
all know (in theory!).<
.....
Thanks  all, for the good discussion on this topic.

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60267	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 12:21 am 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 467- Non-Attachment/Alobha (o) 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd
*****
We often forget the truth that suffering is rooted in desire.
There is most of the time clinging after seeing, hearing or the
other experiences through the senses.

We have to read and reread the scriptures many times and consider the
Buddha’s words. His teaching is like food for our mind. If we realize that
clinging is the root of all sorrow and suffering we will develop right
understanding at this moment so that, eventually, there will be
detachment from all objects.
•****•*****•*****
Non-Attachment(Alobha)to be contd

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60268	From: "Leo" <leoaive@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 12:31 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness ouside 	leoaive 
 	

Hi


It is very interesting. So based on that, a Bhikkhu can not talk on
Dhamma to politician sitting in chair.
Also, one time Buddha (in Sanskrit literature) said: "Sariputta, do
not say that birds are bad karma...."
What if snakes around, and someone is sitting on a chair?
Why you can not talk about Dhamma? It would be more safe to have a
chair.
What do you think about it?

Thanks for posting
Leo


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" <mlnease@...>
wrote:
<...>
> Right, a bhikkhu is very restricted in the circumstances under
which he may
> teach Dhamma (a few sekhiya rules below).  By custom, bhikkhus of
only a few
> rains usually don't teach either.  How these rules do or don't
apply to
> ordained bhikkhus who broadcast their views on the internet is I
suppose a
> matter of opinion.
>
> I'm aware of no such precepts--outside of the proscription of
wrong speech,
> with its implications--regarding the discussion of Dhamma by
laypeople.  I
> certainly agree though that the teaching of wrong dhammas (wrong
view)
> besides being a terrible kamma itself is also why, as you say,
DHAMMA
> DISAPPEAR AND SOME PROBLEMS APPEAR.
<...>


#60269	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 4:56 am 
Subject: MN 01 questions 	egberdina 
 	

Hi all,

I would appreciate any help on the following questions about MN 01,
the Mulapariyaya Sutta. It says this of the run-of-the-mill person.

"He perceives earth as earth...water as water...fire as fire...wind as
wind...beings as beings...gods as gods...Pajapati as Pajapati...Brahma
as Brahma...the luminous gods as luminous gods...the gods of refulgent
glory as gods of refulgent glory...the gods of abundant fruit as the
gods of abundant fruit...the Great Being as the Great Being...the
sphere of the infinitude of space as the sphere of the infinitude of
space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as the sphere of
the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness as the
sphere of nothingness...the sphere of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the sphere of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception...the seen as the seen...the
heard as the heard...the sensed as the sensed...the cognized as the
cognized...singleness as singleness...multiplicity as
multiplicity...the All as the All...

He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding. Perceiving Unbinding as
Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in
Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives
Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he
has not comprehended it, I tell you. "

Does this mean a run-of-the-mill person is capable of attaining all
the jhanas and Nibbana?

Further, the translation has the activity of the run-of-the-mill
person as being "perceiving", as compared to "knowing directly" in the
case of a trainee monk all the way to Arahant and through to the
Tathagata. What are the Pali roots of the two verbs as used in this
sutta?


Kind Regards



Herman


#60270	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 5:11 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Herman,

I can tell you that neither of these factors, whether true or false,
existed for the Oilers in game 2.  As far as:

H:  "The term lokuttara, when used in reference to paths and fruitions,
does not occur in the Suttas. The dualistic model of this world and
the supramundane one is not a teaching device the Buddha used, best as
I can tell."

Can you please show me where this does not occur in the Suttas?

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60271	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 5:30 am 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Ken H.,

Thanks for the reply, and for reminding me of that these are ways of
describing path factors.

K:  "Supramundane path factors (of the ariyan eightfold path) are
so-called because, unlike anything in normal consciousness, they
effect the permanent cessation of conditioned dhammas. This
destruction begins at Stream Entry..."

This gives me a direction to look:

Nyanaponika defines lokuttara as "'supermundane'[and notes it] is a
term for the 4 paths and four 4 fruitions of sotaapatti, etc., with
Nibbaana as ninth."

In the ATI, from Namoli's translation of the Commentary to the
Discourse on Right View (Buddhaghosa), I see where "[t]he
understanding or wisdom (pa~n~na) connected with the paths and the
fruits is supramundane because it's object is the supramundane dhamma,
Nibbaana, and because it leads to overcoming the world."

We are dealing, here, with extremely important things.

And further, "[t]his right view is two-fold: mundane (lokiya) and
supramundane (lokuttara), therein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own
knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are
mundane right views...all understanding that is accompanied by the
taints.  Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is
supramundane right view."

K:  "The same path factors arise in the non-supramundane path moments
(satipatthana) where they work to seriously curtail the defiling
cetasikas. However, they can't quite polish them off."

Is it correct, then, to consider that these supramundane (and, as you
say, non-supramundane to some extent) path factors are in reference to
  the real process of "change" through experience?  Also, these are
considered in terms of "moments," which suggests that "change" occurs
rapidly.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60272	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 3:17 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Ken (and Scott) -

In a message dated 6/8/06 2:56:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ken_aitch@... writes:

> Hi Scott,
>
> I was thinking, just this morning, that I didn't really like the term
> 'mundane' as a description of satipatthana. It means 'not
> supramundane' but it can give the impression of banality, which, of
> course, it is not intended to do.

---------------------------------
Howard:
        I agree with you, Ken. In American English, 'mundane' has a somewhat
disparaging sense of "ordinary," and thus the term can be quite misleading.
But, for the life of me, I can't think of much better words, if at all better,
to
distinguish nibbana and its realizations from all other phenomena. I think
the problem lies not in the Pali, or even in the literal meanings of 'mundane'
and 'supermudane', but but in the connotations these words carry in English.
One thought does occur to me: Possible alternatives for 'mundane' and
'supermundane', though with their own deficiencies, might be 'worldly' and
'transcendent', respectively. (I would avoid 'otherworldly' for 'lokuttara', as
'otherworldly' suggests weirdness and spookiness.)
--------------------------------

>
> Supramundane path factors (of the ariyan eightfold path) are so-called
> because, unlike anything in normal consciousness, they effect the
> permanent cessation of conditioned dhammas. This destruction begins at
> Stream Entry with wrong view, doubt and envy (and maybe some others I
> can't think of at the moment).
>
> The same path factors arise in the non-supramundane path moments
> (satipatthana) where they work to seriously curtail the defiling
> cetasikas. However, they can't quite polish them off.
>
> Corrections welcome.
>
> Ken H
>
======================
With metta,
Howard


#60273	From: Jonothan Abbott <jonabbott@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 6:56 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Audio dana 	jonoabb 
 	

Hi James

I was delighted to hear you'll be visiting Hong Kong in the not too
distant future.

buddhatrue wrote:

>Hi Sarah,
>
>...
>
>
>>James, your news that you'll be visiting H.K. was a super start to
>>my day.
>>I know we'll have a great time together.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>James: Yes, I am looking forward to meeting you (and Jon also if he
>is free).
>
>

I will make sure I'm free, and am looking forward very much to meeting you.

Jon


#60274	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 3:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Sarah (and Matheesha) -

In a message dated 6/8/06 5:02:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

> S: I don't think there has been any suggestion of lokuttara phala cittas
> being represented by any 'mundane level of practice'.
==================
        I don't think Matheesha was implying that anyone in the
"magga/phala-consecutive camp" was suggesting that. I took Matheesha to be
saying, and I
stand to be corrected by him, that *if*, as the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta appears
to
suggest, fruition conscious often follows path consciousness after a
considerable time gap during which practice continues, *then* during that gap,
the
level of the person who attained the path realization is higher than that of the
person who did not yet attain it, his/her practice is at a higher level, s/he
will not fall back to the pre-path stage, and fruition will yet occur.

With metta,
Howard


#60275	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 3:31 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Mundane and Supramundane 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Scott -

In a message dated 6/8/06 8:14:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@...
writes:

> H:  "The term lokuttara, when used in reference to paths and fruitions,
> does not occur in the Suttas. The dualistic model of this world and
> the supramundane one is not a teaching device the Buddha used, best as
> I can tell."
>
> Can you please show me where this does not occur in the Suttas?
>
=======================
        ;-)) Funny!

With metta,
Howard


#60276	From: "m. nease" <mlnease@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 8:32 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness ouside 	mlnease 
 	

Hi Leo,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <leoaive@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] happiness ouside


> It is very interesting. So based on that, a Bhikkhu can not talk on
> Dhamma to politician sitting in chair.

Unless the bhikkhu is seated on a higher chair, as I understand it.

> Also, one time Buddha (in Sanskrit literature) said: "Sariputta, do
> not say that birds are bad karma...."
> What if snakes around, and someone is sitting on a chair?
> Why you can not talk about Dhamma? It would be more safe to have a
> chair.
> What do you think about it?

In the translation I posted, all the rules refer to 'a person'.  In Ven.
Ñåùamoli's translation 'a person' is rendered as 'one'.  Still I think the sense
is in reference to teaching Dhamma to people.


There are stories in the texts of animals hearing Dhamma and benefitting from
it, but I know of no rules regarding the teaching of Dhamma to animals.  (I
don't know the Vinaya well, though).



If I were expecting a visit from a Bhikkhu, I'd certainly like to have a chair
around for him--a really nice chair, at that.



mike

#60277	From: "Paul Grabianowski" <paulgrabianowski@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 9:21 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Paul: pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	paulgrabiano... 
 	

Thank you Nina,

N: When
there is awareness again and again paññaa can gradually develop so that
characteristics are directly understood. When it further develops stages of
insight can arise so that ruupa is realized as ruupa and naama as naama.
Thus, insight is direct understanding of characteristics.


P: Okay, I understand this better.

N: Moreover, it is not
so that all the different cetasikas are directly known by paññaa. These
cetasikas can be object of awareness
  one at a time, but nobody can direct
sati to be aware of them.

P: Okay, this is why detachment is necessary.  These cetasikas cannot be known
both as self and non-self.



N: Kusala citta accompanied by paññaa is also accompanied by sati that is
aware. When there is mindfulness of a characteristic, paññaa can at that
moment develop.

P: This may be a stretch, but to see if I'm following you.  Would it be correct
to say that pannaa and sati can arise together with the same citta?  This would
make sense because to understand that nama is nama and rupa is rupa and that
they are nonself would require an awareness of those characteristics as they are
now in the mind-door process (yet not necessarily the initial impingement?).


N: Kusala citta accompanied by paññaa is also accompanied by sati that is
aware. When there is mindfulness of a characteristic, paññaa can at that
moment develop.

P: I think this helps me to better understand what is meant when it is said that
there are different degrees of pannaa.  What is at issue is not pannaa itself
for its own sake, but the return to what is here happening now.  The degree of
pannaa is dependent upon the conditions of nama and rupa in the present moment
and especially upon the accumulations of pannaa and sati in previous moments
which make the degree of detachment and understanding of non-self possible in
this moment.

N:When sati arises and is mindful of realities and paññå begins to study and
investigate their characteristics, one will begin to understand that the
outward appearance and all the details of things, all the different colours,
are only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. Then paññå begins to
penetrate the characteristics of realities as not a self, not a being, not a
person. If sati arises and is aware time and again, one will understand the
meaning of the Buddha¹s words explaining that, by the development of the
understanding of the realities which naturally appear, one will not cling to
the outward appearance and the details of things.

P: This is essential and hopefully I understand better.  Knowing that the truth
is to be found only in this moment, there can be moments of awareness again and
again of the arising of nama and rupa through the sense doors and through the
mind doors.  When pannaa begins to penetrate the characteristics of reality, it
is dependent upon sati.  Panna of the characteristics of reality as not-self can
take place on many levels.  There is, for example, only intellectual
understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa from reading and listening
at first.  Eventually, there can be direct awareness (sati) of what is happening
here now, and pannaa is dependent upon that awareness (sati) as a condition for
the insight into the nature of reality.  Likewise, the degree of sati would also
seem to be dependent upon the degree of pannaa.  In a way, wisdom follows
awareness and awareness follows wisdom.  It would appear that sati without
pannaa or pannaa without sati would not be possible.  There seems to be
something essential here that the Buddha recognized about the nature of the
mind.  Please let me know if anything here is terribly incorrect.  Thanks.

Paul


#60278	From: "m. nease" <mlnease@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 9:25 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	mlnease 
 	

Hi Ken H. and Scott,

I find this a very interesting topic (and extremely important as Scott noted). 
Hope you'll both pardon my butting in.

Scott, I hope you don't mind that I inserted a slightly corrected and expanded
quote from Ven. Ñåùamoli's translation and Ven. Bodhi's footnote below.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 5:30 AM
Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane


> K:  "Supramundane path factors (of the ariyan eightfold path) are
> so-called because, unlike anything in normal consciousness, they
> effect the permanent cessation of conditioned dhammas. This
> destruction begins at Stream Entry..."
>
> This gives me a direction to look:
>
> Nyanaponika defines lokuttara as "'supermundane'[and notes it] is a
> term for the 4 paths and four 4 fruitions of sotaapatti, etc., with
> Nibbaana as ninth."
>
> In the ATI, from Namoli's translation of the Commentary to the
> Discourse on Right View (Buddhaghosa), I see where "[t]he
> understanding or wisdom (pa~n~na) connected with the paths and the
> fruits is supramundane because it's object is the supramundane dhamma,
> Nibbaana, and because it leads to overcoming the world."

> We are dealing, here, with extremely important things.

> And further, "[t]his right view is two-fold: mundane (lokiya) and
> supramundane (lokuttara), therein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own
> knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are
> mundane right views...all understanding that is accompanied by the
> taints.  Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is
> supramundane right view."

This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara).
Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity
with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane
right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints.2

2. The knowledge of kamma as one's own (kammassakatañana) is often expressed in
the Suttas thus: "I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma, I spring
from my kamma, I am bound to my kamma, I have kamma as my refuge. Whatever kamma
I perform, good or bad, of that I am the heir." In short, it is knowledge of the
moral efficacy of action, of the fact that one's willed deeds fashion one's
destiny. Knowledge in conformity with the truths (saccanulomikañana) is
conceptual knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, accompanied by understanding and
acceptance of them.

> K:  "The same path factors arise in the non-supramundane path moments
> (satipatthana) where they work to seriously curtail the defiling
> cetasikas. However, they can't quite polish them off."
>
> Is it correct, then, to consider that these supramundane (and, as you
> say, non-supramundane to some extent) path factors are in reference to
> the real process of "change" through experience?  Also, these are
> considered in terms of "moments," which suggests that "change" occurs
> rapidly.

Supramundane path moments do as I understand it permanently eradicate
defilements.  Mundane path moments move in the direction of the eradication of
defilements but that progress is not assured until stream entry, as I understand
it.  So both refer I think to "the real process of "change" through experience"
but the former can be lost while the latter can't.


Ven. Bodhi's footnote seemes to me to state categorically that conceptual
knowledge of the FNTs is at least a part of mundane right view.  I've read here
before that mundane right view refers exclusively to a moment of vipassanå (if I
remember and understood correctly).

Thanks and I hope I haven't sidetracked your discussion.

mike
   ----------

#60279	From: "Dan D." <onco111@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 9:37 am 
Subject: Re: MN 01 questions 	onco111 
 	

Damn you, Herman! I was going to do one last check to make sure my
threads were closed down before I bowed out for a few months, and I
see "MN 01" in your headline, and I couldn't resist reading your
post.

> the Mulapariyaya Sutta. It says this of the run-of-the-mill
person....
> "He perceives earth as earth... He perceives Unbinding as
Unbinding....
> he delights in Unbinding....
>
> Does this mean a run-of-the-mill person is capable of attaining all
> the jhanas and Nibbana?

No. It should be read more along the lines of "He perceives earth
as 'earth'...He perceives Unbinding as 'Unbinding'..." He has
glimpses of the distinction between real earth and, say, water, but
ditthi then rushes in and the perception is perverted into a
conceptualization of earth. He is confused and can't distinguish
between the concept of earth and the earth element or between a
conceptualization of Unbinding and Unbinding itself. He then revels
in the conceptualizations and thinks he's reveling in some kind of
understanding.

> Further, the translation has the activity of the run-of-the-mill
> person as being "perceiving", as compared to "knowing directly" in
the
> case of a trainee monk all the way to Arahant and through to the
> Tathagata. What are the Pali roots of the two verbs as used in this
> sutta?

The words are sañjaanaati (for the run-of-the-mill person) and
abhijaanaati (for the trainee through Tathagata). "Jaanaati" is the
verb "to know". The prefix sañ- is probably pleonastic and added
simply to provide contrast to abhijaanaati, which is abhi- (to take
possession of, master) + jaanaati, or a penetrating, masterful
knowing. The PTS dictionary has:

sañjaanaati--to recognize, ...
abhijaanaati--to know by experience, to know fully or thoroughly, ...

The run-of-the-mill person has an inkling and the
sotapanna/sakadagami/anagami (trainee) through Tathagata know
thoroughly to the point of mastery.


Dan


#60280	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:32 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 
 	

Hey Scott,



On 08/06/06, Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote:
>
>  I can tell you that neither of these factors, whether true or false,
>  existed for the Oilers in game 2.

I'm not sure whether to be happy :-).

  As far as:
>
>  H:  "The term lokuttara, when used in reference to paths and fruitions,
>
>  does not occur in the Suttas. The dualistic model of this world and
>  the supramundane one is not a teaching device the Buddha used, best as
>  I can tell."
>
>
>  Can you please show me where this does not occur in the Suttas?
>

Sure :-) It is on the same page numbers as in the Bible where the Holy
Trinity isn't discussed.

Lokutarra is mentioned in the Suttas in relation to this world, as
being the best of it eg arahant and nibanna. That's what the PTS
dictionary reckons, anyway. It further speaks of the supramundane
interpretation as being a later, "philosophical" device, a bit like
our beloved Trinity.

This, of course, also relates to MN01, where the trainee does not
conceive of anything in relation to path, or anything else for that
matter, in order that he may comprehend it. To this extent, the
post-sutta philosophising trend is self-defeating, because it does
precisely the opposite.

That is what is important to understand.

Kind Regards


Herman


#60281	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Ken O,
No you are never to forthright, I appreciate your remarks.
I have to answer short because of lack of time.
I used the word paññaa, because samma-di.t.thi for a beginning level seems
too much. Samma-di.t.thi is a factor of the eightfold Path, and I feel I am
just beginning.
We agree that paññaa and when it has reached a higher level, sammaadi.t.thi,
are cetasikas, they are paramattha dhammas.When you speak about conceptual
sammaadi.t.thi you mean probably sammaadi.t.thi that has a concept as
object, and we agree that this is not so.

Also, when developing satipatthana paramattha dhammas are the object not
concepts as you rightly stress. But when beginning, there is weak awareness
and paññaa, and there can often be thinking of paramattha dhammas, instead
of being aware of their characteristics.
Or, we think of names, and that is not wrong, we can think in the correct
way of names. That thinking can still be done with paññaa. But it is not of
the level of satipa.t.thaana, I agree.
Nina.



#60282	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: the one way. 	nilovg 
 	

Hi Sarah,
op 06-06-2006 10:30 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...:

Also, in one message at the end you mentioned that Lodewijk asked for
Jon's and my comments about knowing when one attains insights.One thing
that is clear is that there is no doubt at all when there are any
insights. Also, there's no idea of 'me' or 'someone' attaining insight -
just dhammas arising and falling away. No self in it at all. Even now, if
there is awareness and understanding of a nama or rupa, there's no idea of
'I' understanding anything at all. Not sure if this helps.
--------
N: I passed it on, and it is very important. This is what Kh Sujin stresses:
at the moments of insight there is dhamma without a self, no self who has
insight. That is the way to be sure whether one has attained a stage of
insight or not.

As to the absence of articles in the passage about feeling, I think I read
too much in these passages elaborating on them. It is not important what I
wrote.
Nina.


#60283	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:50 am 
Subject: Roots of Good and Evil, no 6 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Friends,

This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel
251/253:

<Ignorance, of course, does not mean a mere lack of information about this
or that subject of worldly knowledge. It is, rather the lack of right
understanding concerning the Four Noble Truths: namely, the ignorance (or
willful ignoring) of the full range and depth of suffering, of its true
cause, of the fact that there can be an end of suffering and of the path
that leads to the end of suffering.

The truth of suffering is hidden by the four distortion of reality
(vipallasa), the four great illusions of seeing permanence in the
impermanent, happiness in what is truly suffering, selfhood in what is void
of a self and beauty in the unbeautiful. These distortions, powerful
universal manifestations of ignorance and delusion, shut out an
understanding of the truth of suffering, and thereby obscure the other
truths, too....

Considering the wide range and universal influence of delusion, it is
understandable that, under the name of ignorance, it appears as the first
factor in the chain of dependent origination (paticca-samuppada). As the
chief impelling force that keeps the wheel of existence in rotation delusion
is, indeed, 'a great fault and slow to fade away.' >

*****
Nina.


#60284	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Roots of Good and Evil, 2. 	nilovg 
 	

Hi Herman,
op 06-06-2006 00:04 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofmeister@...:
> N: Not totally, there are also conditions at present: listening to good
> friends, or bad friends, pondering over what one heard.

H: From a dhamma perspective, there are of course no good or bad friends
that
say anything either. And from a momentary perspective, there is no meaning
of words to be pondered or understood. There is only sound, arising,
changing, ceasing.
--------
N: I discussed your dilemma with Lodewijk and he said that if one hears:
there is only this moment now, one will not see connections.
We have to see connections: hearing arises always within a process of
several cittas, and this process is followed by other processes which think
of meanings.
From birth to death there is a stream of cittas and these are connected.
Good and bad accumulations and latent tendencies go on from life to life. We
can learn, there can be development of understanding.
The Buddha taught twentyfour classes of conditions. One of them is that each
citta that falls away condiitons the arising of the next citta, without
interval.
Phenomena are interrelated, there is a concurrence of many conditions for a
citta that understands. Since there is a connection between the cittas of
one lifespan we can speak of an individual, a character. We can speak of
friendship and hearing the Dhamma from good friends. We can speak of
reactions to what one hears, we can speak of listening to someone else.
Perhaps this can clarify part of your dilemma.
--------
H: So how can the hearing of a message with content be a conditioning factor
for the present moment, if hearing meaning in sound indicates that one is
totally oblivious to the present moment?
-------
N: We read that the Disciples listened to the Buddha with their whole
attention, with gladness and courage. It is important how one listens, with
sincerity to learn something, letting go of preconceived ideas.
****
Nina.


#60285	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:42 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 01 questions 	egberdina 
 	

Hey Dan,


On 09/06/06, Dan D. <onco111@...> wrote:
>
> Damn you, Herman! I was going to do one last check to make sure my
>  threads were closed down before I bowed out for a few months, and I
>  see "MN 01" in your headline, and I couldn't resist reading your
>  post.
>

Thanks heaps for this. I hope you have a fruitful absence from dsg. I
think by the time you come back, I'll have them all converted, and
we'll be quoting Lutheran texts :-)

If you happen to spot this post before you disappear, with regards to
the trainee it is said "let him not" conceive etc etc. Can you, or
anyone else, say anything about the Pali source of that sort of
construction?

All the best to you and yours


Herman


#60286	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments - 1 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Han,
thank you very much. Dr. Mehm Tin Mon was mentioned before here, a very good
author. Good you quote from him.
We are never bored with texts that are quoted again.
Yes, I think it is beneficial to develop the kusala kamma that is insight
and gain greater and greater confidence in this kamma.
Nina.
op 08-06-2006 06:29 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.


#60287	From: "kelvin_lwin" <kelvin_lwin@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 12:03 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	kelvin_lwin 
 	

Hi Howard and Matheesha,

> >M: I think we also need to consider that someone who is a
sotapanna magga
> > cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is not
a
> > mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place
anyone and
> > everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.
> >
> ======================
>H:       I agree completely with that!

   Kel: First I'll agree that a sotapanna cannot fall back.  However,
if after magga, phala will be invariably reached then what's the
need for striving?  Would it matter if it's right after or some time
after if it's inevitable anyway?  I can see logic in requiring
striving for reaching the next level of enlightenment easily.

    Second, the last statement is kinda misleading.  We can see the
person a step below already obtained jhanas so this person should at
least have higher panna than jhana, ie vipassana.  Btw, correlating
to visuddhi is something I just thought about using; I dunno if any
text actually say that, I kinda doubt it.

- Kel


#60288	From: "Dan D." <onco111@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 12:06 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 01 questions 	onco111 
 	

Bye, Herman. See you in a few months.

> Thanks heaps for this. I hope you have a fruitful absence from dsg. I
> think by the time you come back, I'll have them all converted, and
> we'll be quoting Lutheran texts :-)

I've done a good bit of reading in my day, and by your logic, I must be
a Maoist, Taoist, Lutheran, Theravada Buddhist, Zen Buddhist, Marxist,
Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Leftist, Rightist, Muslim, etc.
because I don't hesistate to read and quote these when they have
something interesting to say. Right?

See ya'!

Dan


#60290	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 8:16 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Kel (and Matheesha) -

In a message dated 6/8/06 3:05:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kelvin_lwin@... writes:

> Hi Howard and Matheesha,
>
> >>M: I think we also need to consider that someone who is a
> sotapanna magga
> >>cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is not
> a
> >>mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place
> anyone and
> >>everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.
> >>
> >======================
> >H:     I agree completely with that!
>
>  Kel: First I'll agree that a sotapanna cannot fall back.  However,
> if after magga, phala will be invariably reached then what's the
> need for striving?  Would it matter if it's right after or some time
> after if it's inevitable anyway?  I can see logic in requiring
> striving for reaching the next level of enlightenment easily.
>
>   Second, the last statement is kinda misleading.  We can see the
> person a step below already obtained jhanas so this person should at
> least have higher panna than jhana, ie vipassana.  Btw, correlating
> to visuddhi is something I just thought about using; I dunno if any
> text actually say that, I kinda doubt it.
>
> - Kel
>
=========================
        You are right, Kel. I shouldn't have said "completely" in "I agree
completely with that!" It would only make sense that fruition would be
guaranteed
after achieving path consciousness only with continued practice.

With metta,
Howard


#60291	From: "Maya Putra" <vvhite_illusion@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 1:34 pm 
Subject: Re: Q & A by Maya Putra / Steven 	vvhite_illusion 
 	

Steven,

Thank you for your comments and response.  I appreciate them and I will make
corrections
to the answers and post them.

=)  May your contribution benefits others


Metta,
Maya


#60292	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 1:56 pm 
Subject: Dying Moments - 2 	hantun1 
 	

Dying Moments – 2

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

The Simile of a Cattle-shed.

[This is the continuation of the kamma-catukka
(garuka-kamma, aasanna-kamma, aacinna-kamma,
katattaa-kamma)]

Suppose that many cattle are kept in a big shed for
the night. In the morning the door of the shed is
opened to let the cattle go out to the pasture. Now
which one will come out first?

All the cattle want to get out as soon as possible. If
there is an exceptionally strong big one, this one
will walk majestically to the door and come out first.
This one is like a garuka-kamma which is uncontested
to bear its result in the next life.

Now, if there is no exceptionally strong big one, the
one nearest the door may come out first. This is
similar to the aasanna-kamma bearing its fruit in the
next life.

Sometimes a vigilant one, which has regularly noticed
the time when the shed is opened, may walk to the door
just before it is opened and come out first when the
door is opened. This is like the aacinna-kamma
producing its result in the next life.

Sometimes an unexpected frail one, by being pushed by
stronger ones, may come out of the shed first. This is
similar to the case when an unexpected katattaa-kamma
has the chance to condition the next life.

------------------------------

To be continued.

Respectfully,
Han



#60293	From: "Maya Putra" <vvhite_illusion@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 2:56 pm 
Subject: Q & A (Revised) 	vvhite_illusion 
 	

Dear Steven and Everyone,

Here is the modified version, tell me what you think:
____________________________________________________

If Buddhism promotes Dana (generous acts of giving), then why are most Buddhist
countries so poor?

- Buddhism also has no correlation with why most Buddhist countries are poor.
All
religions promote generosity.   In fact, doing Dana has nothing to do with being
a
Buddhist.  There are some people who claim to be Buddhists, but never donate. 
The truth
of the matter is that not many people know how to donate properly.  If not done
with the
right frame of mind, Dana can lead one to suffering.  There are some people who
donate
in hopes to receive something in return, such as name and fame.  Then, there are
others
who donate but are not sincere in their intentions. Being rich or poor is only a
perception.
Although Buddhist countries may lack material richness compared to Western
countries,
Buddhist countries are rich in mental and moral wealth (Dhamma).  Though Western
countries may be rich in material wealth, they are poor in morality,
concentration, and
wisdom.  There is a story by Ajanh Brahmavamso, which is as follows:

Once there was a fisherman living on the Coast of Mexico. He went to fish early
in the
morning, caught some fish, and returned to shore by noon. He kept what he wanted
for
the day, and sold the balance to make a little money just enough to keep him
going.  One
day a tourist who happened to be a business professor from America stopped by
and
asked him how things were. The Fisherman replied that the life was good and he
caught
enough fish for the day, now he is going to the market to sell a portion of his
catch and
take the balance home.  Then he will have lunch with his family, have a siesta,
and in the
evening he will play with his kids and tell a story to his kids before they go
to bed. Then
the professor said, you can do better, instead of going home early, you can
catch fish for
the whole day and in a couple of months, you can earn enough to buy a second
boat, and
double your income. Then you can employ more people and continue to earn and in
a
couple of years he will be able to have a fishing fleet of your own and make a
fortune.
Then you can move your business to Los Angeles and float it in the stock market
as the
CEO of a company and raise venture capital to expand the business and ultimately
end up
being a millionaire.  Then the fisherman asked, "Senor, what will I do with
those millions?"
The professor didn't think that far ahead in his business plan. He said, perhaps
when you
make a fortune, you can retire to a fishing village like this one, do a little
fishing for fun
and enjoy the life with your family. "Senor, I am doing that already", replied
the fisherman.

So the moral of the story is that the goal of life is not to own millions, but
to be content
and happy. In the same light, the king of Bhutan (by the way a Buddhist
country), place
more emphasis on Gross National Happiness (GNH) than Gross National Product
(GNP).

Why should one go to the temple to learn Dhamma?

- Why does one eat?  One eats to support the body of course.  What about the
mind?  The
mind also needs food.  Going to the temple is like food for the mind.  Like the
body,
without food our minds will become weak and malnourished.  When the mind is
down, the
body cannot function well. Going to the temple gives one inner-happiness,
contentment, a
sense of peace and harmony within oneself.  Once in seven days, one can take a
break
from all the stress and fast-paced routine of everyday life.  Going to the
temple also gives
moral support in the continuation of one's practice.  However, the temple should
not be
the only place that one maintains practice; one should also maintain practice
outside of
the temple.  The main purpose go to the temple should be to learn Dhamma and to
practice it, instead of other things such as for commercial purposes, for
socializing, or for
food—these are secondary.

If the Buddha was compassionate why did he leave his wife and child?

- The Buddha's compassion extends beyond his wife and child.  He felt compassion
towards all the beings in the universe.  He left his wife and child for the
greater good of all
beings, to find a cure to suffering, a disease all beings experience, including
his wife and
child.  So leaving his wife and child was one of the most compassionate acts the
Buddha
has ever performed.  This is not to say that the Buddha completely abandoned his
wife and
child without proper care.  He made sure that his wife and child were safe and
in good
care.

__________________________________________________
Metta,

Maya


#60294	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 4:04 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q & A (Revised 	egberdina 
 	

Hi there,

Thank you for your posts and inviting reflection on them.

>
>  Why should one go to the temple to learn Dhamma?
>
>  - Why does one eat?  One eats to support the body of course.  What about the
mind?  The
>  mind also needs food.  Going to the temple is like food for the mind.

Going to the temple to feed the mind would be a good thing, if the
message at the temple was that feeding the mind leads to suffering. It
is only in the absence of scavening for mind food (or hunting for mind
prey) that the mind settles down to tranquility and insight. If that's
what they teach at the temple, and then do it as well, hey' let's go
everyday :-)

Kind Regards

Herman


#60295	From: LBIDD@... 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 4:41 pm 
Subject: Vism.XVII,81 	lbidd2 
 	

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII

81. (a) Herein, firstly, 'object-decisive-support condition' is set
forth without differentiating it from object-predominance in the way
beginning: 'Having given a gift, having undertaken the precepts of
virtue, having done the duties of the Uposatha, a man gives that
importance and reviews it; he gives importance to former things well
done and reviews them. Having emerged from jhana, he gives jhana
importance and reviews it. Trainers give importance to change-of-lineage
and review it. They give importance to cleansing and review it.15
Trainers, having emerged from the path, give importance to the path and
review it' (P.tn.1,165). Herein, the object in giving importance to
which consciousness and consciousness concomitants arise, is necessarily
a cogent one among these objects. So their difference may be understood
in this way: 'object-predominance' is in the sense of what is to be
given importance to, and 'object-decisive-support is in the sense of a
cogent reason.
-------------------------------
Note 15. 'Reviewing change-of-lineage' (the consciousness that precedes
the path consciousness) applies to stream-enterers. 'Reviewing
cleansing' (the 'cleansing' that consists in attaining a higher path
than the first) applies to once-returners and non-returners (see Pm.
589).
*****************************
81. tattha ``daana.m datvaa siila.m samaadiyitvaa uposathakamma.m katvaa
ta.m garu.mkatvaa paccavekkhati, pubbe suci.n.naani garu.mkatvaa
paccavekkhati,
jhaanaa vu.t.thahitvaa jhaana.m garu.mkatvaa paccavekkhati, sekkhaa
gotrabhu.m garu.mkatvaa paccavekkhanti, vodaana.m garu.mkatvaa
paccavekkhanti. sekkhaa maggaa vu.t.thahitvaa magga.m garu.mkatvaa
paccavekkhantii''ti (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.423) evamaadinaa nayena
aaramma.nuupanissayo taava aaramma.naadhipatinaa saddhi.m naanatta.m
akatvaava vibhatto. tattha ya.m aaramma.na.m garu.mkatvaa
cittacetasikaa uppajjanti, ta.m niyamato tesu aaramma.nesu
balavaaramma.na.m
hoti. iti garukattabbamatta.t.thena aaramma.naadhipati,
balavakaara.na.t.thena aaramma.nuupanissayoti evametesa.m naanatta.m
veditabba.m.


#60296	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 4:46 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... 	egberdina 
 	

Hi Sarah,

On 07/06/06, sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
>  ....
>  H:> The point is that raw sensation is not experienced as it happens. That
>
>  > it
>  > happens, and what happens, is nothing more than an inference, a concept.
>  > The
>  > present moment, the now, is an inference, a concept.
>
>  ....
>  S: I would say, it is experienced as it happens (by citta). Afterwards
>  there are inferences and concepts about it. But even when there are
>  inferences and concepts about 'raw sensation', the thinking and
>  conceptualising are very real. We can't say the present moment is 'an
>  inference, a concept.' There may be thinking about concepts now, there may
>  be experiences of paramattha dhammas now. The cittas and cetasikas which
>  experience any of these objects at any time are always real.
>  ....
>
>  >
>  > Sure, seeing sees, hearing hears, feeling feels etc etc That is knowing.
>  > Seeing knows, hearing knows. Seeing knows visible object, but it doesn't
>  > know the present or the past, it doesn't know time.
>
>  ....
>  S: OK
>  ...
>  >Seeing is visible
>  > object.
>  ...
>  S: No - they are quite distinct dhammas. Seeing is nama, a kind of citta.
>  Visible object is rupa which doesn't know or experience anything.
>  ....
>
>  >But it is gone before it is known that it was there, literally.
>  > Knowing seeing or knowing visible object is thinking, it is not here and
>  > now, it is analysis of the past. Anything that can be known as being
>  > there
>  > is always already past.
>
>  ....
>  S: I don't agree. What you say is thinking about it, but when awareness
>  arises and is aware of seeing or visible object, it is aware of the
>  'present dhamma' appearing.
>  ....
>
>  >
>  > It is perhaps more easily explained as the difference between
>  > consciousness
>  > and awareness. The presence of consciousness can be inferred from
>  > reactivity
>  > to stimuli before there is any "knowing of them", as in blinking when
>  > objects come flying to the eye, or reacting to a prod from your wife in
>  > deep
>  > sleep, without "knowing" anything about it. But clearly there is knowing
>  > of
>  > sense objects going on. Awareness on the other hand, is consciousness of
>  > consciousness, and that doesn't happen in real time.
>
>  ....
>  S: The first kind of inference is just thinking about what must have been
>  experienced. Yes, citta or consciousness 'knows' in a sense what it
>  experiences. Seeing 'knows' visible object. When you say that awareness
>  'doesn't happen in real time', again this is just a kind of thinking about
>  awareness. When awareness arises it is aware of the present dhamma
>  appearing. If it were not possible for awareness to be aware and for
>  understanding to really know these dhammas, there'd be no path of
>  satipatthana. But there is!
>  .....
>
>  >We can only infer
>  > that
>  > awareness is constructed from objects that were known by the senses. But
>  > whether the quality of the awareness of the object is identical to the
>  > quality of the consciousness of the object if and when it happened is
>  > unknowable.
>  >
>  >
>  > I hope that makes sense.
>
>  ....
>  S: I believe I understand what you are saying, but I believe you're
>  underestimating the quality of awareness here. Awareness can be aware of a
>  dhamma that appears 'exactly as it is'. Of course, it has to develop and
>  only panna will clearly know when there is and isn't awareness.
>
>  Otherwise, it would be a path of thinking and inference only. But it's
>  not.

Yes, I believe that I understand where you are coming from. I have
some thoughts about it. I suspect that you are telling me about the
Abh model, not about what you experience. Which is fine, because I
think that the Abh model is ultimately built on the experiences of
some with very sharp discernment and mental prowess. But always this
model limits us to what is experienced. It is a phenomenal model.

These days there are very good understandings of how the mind works
based on the structures of the organ that give rise to it ie the
brain. A fundamental reality of that organ is  that there are two
brain hemisphere that can function quite independently of each other.
This has enormous repurcussions as to what is knowable at any time,
given the limits of attention. So models that are limited to what is
phenomenally knowable cannot say anything about all the stuff that
goes on that is never presented to consciousness for consideration.
Just as the sinking of the Titanic can not be explained from what was
visible, because the critcal, causal stuff happened below the surface.
I would be very happy, if anyone were to express an interest, to post
some considerations about consciousness in light of modern
understanding of brain functioning.

I would say that with current understanding, the Abh model of mind is
like a circle being used to model a square. That is not a slight on
the model, after all, the Abh model is far advanced on any model that
might be implicit in the suttas, and there is only a few hundred years
time gap between them. And between the Abh model and today we have 22
- 23 hundred years.

The Dhamma, however, is timeless, and independent of clever models and
abstract philosophising. The Suttas do not need systemisation in order
to render the 4NT as a valid representation of the way things are. But
for those who hitch their wagon to specific models of mind as a way
out of samsara there is a dilemma. The reality of dukkha is
unchanging, but the models of mind are as subject to change as every
other darn formation.

Conceptual "understandings" are the domain of the puthajjana, and the
only way out is to cease conceiving of those understandings.

Kind Regards



Herman


#60297	From: "ken_aitch" <ken_aitch@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 5:19 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	ken_aitch 
 	

Hi Sarah, Howard and Matheesha,

The following is probably not helpful to the discussion. It is mainly
an explanation of my confused state of mind.

When I first wrote to Howard on this thread, I was thinking, "How can
he possibly interpret this sutta in the way he does? His
interpretation goes against the descending order of the list (starting
with the Tathagata and ending with the animal)." But then I saw a way
in which Howard's interpretation did not go against the descending
order, and I thought, "Oh, so this is why there has been so much
controversy! This is the interpretation everyone, except me, has been
using all along!"

But then Sarah wrote:
----------------
S: > What has been suggested is that:

a) Phala cittas follow the magga citta in question in succession,
without any interval (as we commonly read in the Vism and other texts)

b) In the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta, we are given a list of 'Fourteen
kinds of personal offerings' in order of merit, starting with the
greatest gifts being to a Tathagata and the smallest gifts being to an
animal. In this list, some of us think it's significant that 'one who
has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of
stream-entry' is below the stream-enterer and so for the other ariyan
stages.

In other words, as the commentary suggests (I believe), the 'one who
has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of
stream-entry' is not a sotapanna, but is next down in the list, i.e
those developing insight/vipassana.
----------------

That's what I thought at first when I told Howard his interpretation
was counter intuitive. I said it went against the descending order of
the list. But then I thought maybe Howard was reading the sutta in a
way that supported his commentary-contradicting opinion and yet did
not go against the descending order of the list.

Such a reading is possible if the list is interpreted as follows:

1. One who has attained both arahant-magga-citta and
arahant-phala-citta and who is a Tathagata

2. One who has attained both arahant-magga-citta and
arahant-phala-citta and who is a Pacekkabuddha

3. One who has attained both arahant-magga-citta and
arahant-phala-citta and who is a sekha (disciple)

4. One (regardless of which of the above three paths is being
followed) who has attained arahant-magga-citta but has not yet
attained arahant-phala-citta

And so on for 5, 6, 7 & 8 down to:

9. One who has attained both sotapanna-magga-citta and
sotapanna-phala-citta

10. One who has attained sotapanna-magga-citta but has not yet
attained sotapanna-phala-citta

Then 11 would have to be: One who has attained jhana-citta but who has
not yet attained any supramundane cittas (no express mention of
satipatthana).

I hastily apologised for talking at cross-purposes with Howard and
everyone. But now it seems I didn't need to apologise: my first
interpretation was the commonly held one after all!

One of the problems with my alternative interpretation is that it
denies the title of (for example) Stream Enterer to one who has
attained stream-entry-magga-citta but has not yet attained
stream-entry-phala-citta. (I think members of the
commentary-contradicting team talk about "the Stream Enterer who is
working towards fruition of Stream Entry. ")

Apart from that (and apart from it's not being the right
interpretation) there is no great problem with my alternative.
Admittedly, it begs the question, "How can a gift be given to someone
who exists for only one fleeting moment of consciousness?" And so it
gives aid and comfort to the commentary-contradictors (joke) who
believe there is a considerable period between the two stages.

But the apparent incongruity doesn't worry me. I see it as one of he
beauties of conventional-language Dhamma. There are many instances in
the suttas where the Buddha asks and answers (for example), "How does
a monk practise mindfulness of breathing?" "How does a monk who is
walking know he is walking?" "In what way does one speak of 'the
world?'" In the present case, he could be asking, "How does one give a
gift to a recipient?" The beauty lies in understanding how a
conventional reality (person, activity) can be spoken of when,
ultimately, there are no conventional realities; there are only
momentary namas and rupas.

Giving a gift to one who has attained sotapanna-magga-citta before he
can attain sotapanna-phala-citta (less than a billionth of a second
later) is, ultimately, no more absurd or unlikely than giving a gift
to you or me. All individuals are, in truth and reality, existent for
just one fleeting moment.

Ken H


#60298	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 2:44 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Ken -

In a message dated 6/8/06 8:21:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ken_aitch@... writes:

> Giving a gift to one who has attained sotapanna-magga-citta before he
> can attain sotapanna-phala-citta (less than a billionth of a second
> later) is, ultimately, no more absurd or unlikely than giving a gift
> to you or me. All individuals are, in truth and reality, existent for
> just one fleeting moment.
>
---------------------------------------
Howard:
        As actual individuals, not even that, Ken! ;-) But, that aside, there
is still the problem of the gift offering.
====================
With metta,
Howard

P.S. Your alternative interpretation of my understanding of the sutta was
well done, Ken, even though you now abandon it. ;-)


#60299	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 7:21 pm 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Herman,

Let me see if I'm following you:

H:  "Lokutarra is mentioned in the Suttas in relation to this world,
as being the best of it eg arahant and nibanna. That's what the PTS
dictionary reckons, anyway. It further speaks of the supramundane
interpretation as being a later, "philosophical" device, a bit like
our beloved Trinity."

The word lokuttara only seemed to come up, in my search of the PTS,
under lokiya and seems to mean transcendent, among other similar
senses.  You reject the term's validity, except in a certain narrow
sense because you consider the other usage to be "a later
'philosophical' device."  You do accept, given the narrow
interpretation you will allow, that the term is one that is antonymous
to "this world" or "lokiya."

H:  "This, of course, also relates to MN01, where the trainee does not
conceive of anything in relation to path, or anything else for that
matter, in order that he may comprehend it. To this extent, the
post-sutta philosophising trend is self-defeating, because it does
precisely the opposite."

In my reading of MN 1, the *uninstructed run-of-the-mill-person* (not
the trainee) does conceive of all these things but "has not
comprehended [them]." Here the tendency to conceptualise is seen as
the lowest rung of "the root sequence."  The lack of comprehension is
what constitutes not being on the path.

On the next level of the root sequence, the trainee, endowed with a
"yearning for the unexcelled release from bondage" is said to be able
to "directly know" the listed constituents.  This implies a degree of
difference.  (Does this mean that the yearning has some sort of
puissance or activating function?  I don't know.)

Next, the arahant, who is "devoid of mental fermentations," is said to
have "comprehended" things.

And finally, the Tathagatha is said to have "comprehended it to the end."

Does this not demonstrate that one goes from one level to another?
And that these levels can also be seen as various points on a path?
And that there is a lokiya point through to a lokuttara point?  Does
this not demonstrate that this whole premise is imbedded in the Sutta?

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60300	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 8:18 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Mike,

M:  "Hope you'll both pardon my butting in."

It's very good to see you here again, Mike!

M:  "I inserted a slightly corrected and expanded quote from Ven.
���amoli's translation and Ven. Bodhi's footnote below."

Thank you.

M:  "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane
(lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge
which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right
view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is
accompanied by the taints.2

"2. The knowledge of kamma as one's own (kammassakata�ana) is often
expressed in the Suttas thus: "I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of
my kamma, I spring from my kamma, I am bound to my kamma, I have kamma
as my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, good or bad, of that I am the
heir." In short, it is knowledge of the moral efficacy of action, of
the fact that one's willed deeds fashion one's destiny. Knowledge in
conformity with the truths (saccanulomika�ana) is conceptual knowledge
of the Four Noble Truths, accompanied by understanding and acceptance
of them.

"Supramundane path moments do as I understand it permanently eradicate
defilements.  Mundane path moments move in the direction of the
eradication of defilements but that progress is not assured until
stream entry, as I understand it.  So both refer I think to "the real
process of "change" through experience" but the former can be lost
while the latter can't.

"Ven. Bodhi's footnote seemes to me to state categorically that
conceptual knowledge of the FNTs is at least a part of mundane right
view.  I've read here before that mundane right view refers
exclusively to a moment of vipassan� (if I remember and understood
correctly)."

So, these mundane moments, although very likely quite brilliant in
comparsison to, say, worldly moments, have a minimal sort of efficacy
leading to effect, yet perhaps have an impermanent characteristic.
Howard makes the point scant squiggles away that the word "mundane"
rather makes one lose track of the distinction these moments have in
comparison to ordinary moments.

Thanks for clarifying this for me, Mike.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60301	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 9:23 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	ashkenn2k 
 	

Hi Nina

> I used the word paññaa, because samma-di.t.thi for a beginning
> level seems too much. Samma-di.t.thi is a factor of the eightfold
Path, and I feel I am just beginning.

k:  You are very humble.  I think even you are just beginning it is
still based on mundane samma dithi that starts you on the path as
mundane samma dithi is both parityatti and patipatti (according to my
interpretation).  I dont think you should hestitate to use it as the
word Right in Right View is not the same as Noble.  It is alright to
use samma dithi as long as it is mundane as we cannot used the terms
panna and samma dithi differently, they are the same.  Using it
differently will cause inconsistency. Futhermore it is samma dithi
that first lead us to develop the path and it is samma dithi that
help us increase our saddha toward Buddha Dhamma even though we dont
see the paramthas level of the dhamma.  I remember I quote this
paragraph that I wrote to Dan recently on Right View

  The dispeller of delusion, pg 139 para 552.
<<In the later stage there comes to be penetration as function in
regard to three and penetration as object in regard to cessation.
Herein all penetration knowledge is suparmundane; knowledge of
hearing, remembering and comprehending is mundane of the sense
sphere. But there comes to reviewing (paccavekkhanaa) for one who
has reached the truths. But this one is a beginner, therefore that
is not stated here. For this bikkhu there is no concern,
ratiocination, bringing to mind and reviewing thus: "I am fully
understing suffering, I am abandoning origination, I am realising
cessation, I am developing the parth" before laying hold; but there
is since laying hold. But in the later stage suffering has just been
penetrated....the path has just been developed.>>

What I dont agree with Dan is the used of concepts to develop the
path  as he felt as long as it is not clinging, one can use it.  We
could used concepts and names to help us develop samma dithi but they
are not paramathas (better speak here since he is not here to defend
himself hahaha :-) ) and this does not make samma dithi conceptual or
such thing as conceptual samma dithi.


Cheers
Ken O


#60302	From: "ken_aitch" <ken_aitch@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 10:05 pm 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	ken_aitch 
 	

Hi Scott and all,

-------------
<. . .>
S: > In the ATI, from Namoli's translation of the Commentary to the
Discourse on Right View (Buddhaghosa), I see where "[t]he
understanding or wisdom (pa~n~na) connected with the paths and the
fruits is supramundane because it's object is the supramundane dhamma,
Nibbaana,
--------------

Oh, yes, I didn't think of it from that angle. I suppose Nibbana is
supramundane because, unlike every other reality, it does not bear the
characteristics anicca and dukkha. However, it does have the anatta
characteristic. (Whether it has actual characteristics of permanence
and satisfactoriness, I don't know.)

------------------------
S: > and because it leads to overcoming the world."
------------------------

That's what I was thinking of when I gave my answer - permanent
eradication of the five khandhas.

---------------------------------------
S: > We are dealing, here, with extremely important things.
"And further, "[t]his right view is two-fold: mundane (lokiya) and
supramundane (lokuttara), therein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own
knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are
mundane right views...all understanding that is accompanied by the
taints. Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is
supramundane right view."
-----------------------------------------

I'm sure that's right, although it's not the way I am accustomed to
thinking of it. As you will have read many times on DSG, supramundane
right view is the cetasika that directly knows the characteristics of
nibbana. Mundane right view directly knows the characteristics of
conditioned dhammas. Intellectual right view (pariyatti) only knows
concepts of dhammas.

There is another form of panna-cetasika that is not unique to the
Dhamma: it knows kusala from akusala.

-----------------------------
<. . .>
S: > Is it correct, then, to consider that these supramundane (and, as
you say, non-supramundane to some extent) path factors are in
reference to the real process of "change" through experience?
-------------------------------

I see Mike knew how to answer that question, which was a good thing
because I couldn't quite follow it.  Is "change through experience" a
common expression in Buddhist parlance?

-------------------
S: > Also, these are considered in terms of "moments," which suggests
that "change" occurs rapidly.
-------------------

Yes, dhammas perform functions and they always do so in the space of a
single citta (single moment of consciousness). There is no other
ultimately real form of action.

You wrote to Mike:
----------
> So, these mundane moments, although very likely quite brilliant in
comparison to, say, worldly moments, have a minimal sort of efficacy
leading to effect, yet perhaps have an impermanent characteristic.
----------

With mundane insight, I think the operative factor is dispassion.
Panna sees the worthlessness of conditioned dhammas (sees them as a
dart, a canker etc.) and so, starting with the worst of them, the
desire and other conditions for their arising are dissipated.

------------
S: > Howard makes the point scant squiggles away that the word
"mundane" rather makes one lose track of the distinction these moments
have in comparison to ordinary moments.
------------

I have been trying to work the phrase 'scant squiggles away' into my
reply, but am not confident I can use it correctly. :-)

Ken H


#60303	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:33 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula-sotapanna 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Kel, (& Rob K*)

You're writing some nice posts on dana and other topics. Thank you so much
for your further consideration and research on this one. As we've both
said, we'll have to leave it until August, but I'd just like to ask for
some clarification first:

For others, Kel here is giving references to 'cula-sotapanna'
--- kelvin_lwin <kelvin_lwin@...> wrote:

>   My teacher found references but I think they're Burmese versions.
> It's from (I think) fifth nikaya pali commentary definition:
>
> 1) Full saddha in Buddha (some commentary ref, 26)
> 2) Paccaya Pariggaha Nana (vsm, 2nd book, 240)
> 3) Kankha-vitarana-visuddhi (abhidhamma, commentary 242)
> 4) Saddha in three gems and pure sila (4 suttas)
>
>   So I think it comes down to what an attainment of Paccya-Pariggaha-
> nana really means.
....
S: I don't think there is any question that this is the second stage of
insight (vipassana nana) according to the texts.

Ka'nkhaa-vitara.na-visuddhi is the 'comprehending of the causal
conditions' of nama and rupa which were directly known by
di.t.thi-visuddhi (i.e. at the stage of naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na).
So it's the same as paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na above. When there is this
direct comprehension of causal conditions, there is no more doubt about
their conditioned nature of arising.
....
>   Sayadaw U Kundalabhivamsa in p 26 of
> http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allkunda.pdf says this:
>
>   The Yogi who understands that can be called 'Cula-sotapanna' (one
> whose future is ensured in the sense that his next existence will
> not be in an apaya region).  It is much to be striven for.  He
> achieves supportive results of of the Buddha's sasana.  He is sure
> to be in sugati (a happy state) in his rounds of rebirth.
>
> Kel: So if you just read the last statement without the first one
> then he would appear to agree with your position.
....
S: I'd say it's ambiguous and I'd like to see his references:-)
....
>
>   Sayadaw U Silananda in http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed056.htm :
>
> A "lesser sotapanna" is not a true stream-enterer but is said to be
> assured of rebirth in a happy realm of existence, such as in the
> realms of human beings and devas. That is, a lesser sotapanna cannot
> be reborn in one of the four woeful states, in one of the hells or
> animal realms.
....
S: So far, this is what I've read and understood from the texts....
...
This state of lesser sotapanna can be reached just by
> practicing walking meditation, just by paying close attention to the
> movements involved in a step. This is the great benefit of
> practicing walking meditation. This stage is not easy to reach, but
> once yogis reach it, they can be assured that they will be reborn in
> a happy state, unless, of course, they fall from that stage.
...
S: I haven't read any of this (apart from the one phrase about rebirth) in
the texts:-)
....
>   Kel: The only moral that sticks out at me of this story is that
> because of his comment about Kassapa Buddha, he had to suffer years
> of wrong practice.  Reminds me of an arahat who is born short
> stature because he suggested building a smaller stupa for a Buddha,
> scary.
....
S: Yes, unimaginable great merit from gifts to Buddhas and unimaginable
bad merit from the opposite.
....
>   Kel: Just compare the two Jotipala stories.  In first one he
> basically attained jhanas but no mention of insights.  Second one is
> where he ordained and did what a Boddhisata is suppose to do
> (according to references Venerable gave before) and this included
> insights.
....
S: They seem very different. Again let me wait for KS's further comments.
She did read the original 'Musing' I wrote on the topic carefully when
someone showed it to her and made positive comments when I later saw her,
picking out just a couple of very minor typo amendments, inc. one in the
post-script in something I'd copied from her book, 'Survey'!
....
>   Kel: We can drop this point as it is taught in correlating
> visuddhis and nanas.  We know panna differs a lot even with
> arahats.  So aside from arise or not, you do get different grades.
....
S: OK, with patisambhidas or not and so on. Clearly Sariputta's panna was
'a higher grade' than that of other arahants:-).
....
>   Kel: As with sila, insight arise in certain lives but not all
> lives.  And it is just for this life unless it has been perfected by
> arahat-hood.
....
S: I don't think there's any question that the 'pure sila' of the
sotapanna and insight at this level will only be for that life. The
sotapanna will never again break the precepts and so on as I understand.

So I would think similar reasoning could easily apply.
....
S: As for the degree of sila and insight of the cula-sotapanna, I can't
say. There may be conditions for them not to arise in future lives, but
maybe no conditions for kamma of the degree to condition rebirth in hell
realms. As I've said, I don't believe any insight is ever 'lost', but
there may be conditions for it not to arise for aeons if there is no
opportunity to hear the teachings in various lives. (Only the sotapanna up
doesn't need to hear the teachings).
....
>   I've given you as much as I can gather, Sarah.  I know you'll want
> to check with KS in August and we can table the discussion till
> then.  I doubt I'll have much novel points to add though.
....
S: Like I said to Dan, it's been a great discussion to date, Kel and I've
greatly appreciated all your input and the comments your teacher has added
too. If I have anything further to add in August, I certainly will.

Meanwhile, I'll look forward to reading your input in other threads.

Metta,

Sarah
*Rob, thanks for indicating your interest in this thread (off-list). Pls
add any quotes or comments if you feel inclined to do so!
=======

#60304	From: "ken_aitch" <ken_aitch@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:43 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	ken_aitch 
 	

Hi Howard,

---------
KH: > > All individuals are, in truth and reality, existent for
just one fleeting moment.
> >

Howard: > As actual individuals, not even that, Ken! ;-)
---------

True!  I tend to use that kind of language, but apparently, it is
specifically frowned upon in the texts. I think they say somewhere
that we can't talk about a self, even if we qualify it as "only
existing for one mind-moment."

---------------------

H: > But, that aside, there is still the problem of the gift offering.

---------------------

Offering? Do you mean there have to be separate moments: one of
offering and another of giving?  It would indeed be impossible to
offer and then give something to an individual who was only around for
one of those moments.  It's a good thing my interpretation was wrong.
:-)

But, actually, I think dana, sila and all other kamma-pathas
take place in a single moment.

-----------------------
H: > P.S. Your alternative interpretation of my understanding of the
sutta was well done, Ken, even though you now abandon it. ;-)
-----------------------

Thanks, my reason for abandoning it was not that it tended, if
anything, to favour the opposing side (we Australians have been pretty
good at own-goals lately). It was more a matter of Occam's Razor: the
more straightforward explanation was perfectly adequate.

Ken H


#60305	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:52 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Joop,

--- Joop <jwromeijn@...> wrote:

> Hallo all
>
> In a discussion with Sarah the term 'attachment' was used.
>
> My intuive thought was upadana (one of the steps of DO), most times
> translated as clinging or attachment, is a ultimate reality.
> But it is know, that surprises me
> Why not, why are other less important phenomena a ultimate relality
> and upadana not?
...
S: Upadana is also lobha cetasika. It is strong attachment or clinging.
There are many different terms used for lobha in different contexts.

Have I missed your point?

Metta,

Sarah
=======


#60306	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:16 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience. 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Dear Nina (& Han),

--- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
>Do we know when there is self love?
> It helps me to consider the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta
> developed.
> He said, if there are no contrarious people how could I develop
> patience?
.....
S: :-) A good reminder!
....
> Someone kept on saying to me: now you keep quiet, you keep quiet. It
> worked
> on my nerves. Kh Sujin said: let her say this again and again.
...
S: I like this one too! Yes, it doesn't matter at all if people disagree
or have other ideas of how we should behave.
...
> Others may not agree, so
> what?
> Why should we mind if people do not agree?
> I hope Sarah will add something to this.
...
S: I'm not sure what more to add. As Han mentioned, he wasn't referring to
anything here or in Bkk when he made a comment about his past posts.

As you say, 'so what?' if people don't agree with us or if we don't agree
with others. It's bound to be like that all the time. Isn't it an
indication of being easy to speak to when people know they can comment
freely? And aren't we all wrong a lot of the time in what we say? As
K.Sujin said before, seeing how little we know and how often we make
mistakes in what we think or say is a way of appreciating the great wisdom
of the Buddha.

Han, I appreciate all your posts. There was a very good one on the Samadhi
Sutta, also your reply to Christine on the inclinations with the Pali was
helpful and now I'm very glad to read your series on Death and further
discussions with Nina and Lodewijk. Thank you.

Metta,

Sarah
p.s Han, we'll look f/w to meeting you in Bangkok when we visit,
mid-August.
=====


#60307	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:18 am 
Subject: Dying Moments - 3 	hantun1 
 	

Dying Moments – 3

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

Maranaasanna Nimittas (kamma-related objects at the
dying moments)

In the present life, a person will be alive as long as
the kusala-kamma (wholesome deed), which has given him
rebirth in this life, keeps on supporting him, i.e.,
keeps on producing bhavanga cittas (life-continuum) as
kamma-resultant. Just before that supporting kamma
fades out, of the many kusala-kammas and
akusala-kammas which compete with one another to have
the chance of bearing kamma-resultant, one kamma will
emerge as the winner.

Kamma-object.

The successful kamma may appear in the life-continuum
(mind-door) of the person as kamma-object. When this
happens the person may recollect the good or bad
action which he has performed in the past in
connection with the successful kamma. The moral or
immoral consciousness, experienced at that particular
moment, arises now as a fresh consciousness. In other
words, it is a recurring of the consciousness which
one has experienced in performing the action.

Kamma-nimitta.

At times, it may be a sign or symbol associated with
the successful kamma that appears at one of the
sense-doors. It may be one of the five physical
objects viewed through one of the five doors as a
present object, or viewed through the mind door as a
past object. This past or present object associated
with the successful kamma is called ‘kamma-nimitta’ or
‘sign of kamma.’

For example, let us suppose that a person listens to
the Dhamma at his dying moment and this good kamma
becomes the successful kamma to bear kamma-resultant
for the next life. In this case, the present audible
Dhamma words grasped through the ear becomes the
‘kamma-nimitta.’

In another case, let us suppose that a dying teacher
sees through his mental eye (mano-vi~n~naana) the
students he has taught. This is also ‘kamma-nimitta’
in the form of a past object which appears at the
mind-door.

Or, say, in another case, a dying butcher hears the
groans of the cattle he has killed. This past audible
object is also ‘kamma-nimitta’ presented to him
through the mind-door.

Gati-nimitta.

At times, some symbol of the place in which he is to
be reborn according to the successful kamma may appear
at the mind-door.

For example, celestial beings or celestial mansions,
etc., may appear to the dying person if he is to be
reborn in one of the celestial abodes; or miserable
people in hell or hellhounds, etc., may appear to him
if he is to be reborn in hell. These objects related
to the place of rebirth are known as ‘gati-nimitta’ or
‘sign of destiny.’
----------
Thus, when a person is dying, one of the three types
of maranaasanna-nimitta, namely, ‘kamma’,
‘kamma-nimitta’ or ‘gati-nimitta’, will always appear
at one of the six sense-doors. The person will die
soon after and will be reborn in the next life. Then
his patisandhi-citta, bhavanga-citta and cuti-citta in
the new life will all grasp the maranaasanna-nimitta
of the past life.

------------------------------
To be continued.

Respectfully,
Han



#60308	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:29 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Bodhisattva Ideal 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Joop,

I didn't reply to the second part of this post (#59461). Others inc.
Charles may have. Anyway, in case not....

--- Joop <jwromeijn@...> wrote:
> In fact there are two points:
> - Where on the 'spiritual scale' of worldling-streamenterer-
> oncereturner-nonreturner-arahant can a bodhisatta be placed?
....
S: worldling
....
>I have
> the impression it cannot, a bodhisatta is sometime the 'title' giving
> to a person who is aspiring something, not only when having reached
> that something.
> - Your remark that bodhisattas cannot show others the path to
> liberation because they are not enlightened. My question marks had to
> be placed with this remark. We, Sarah, can show the path; not perfect
> but in more or less the good direction, that better then nothing.
....
S: What I meant was that until the bodhisatta is enlightened, becomes a
Samma-Sambodhi in his final life, he cannot show others the path - othes
cannot become savakas until then, because there is no Buddha sasana before
that time. For example, the other ascetics who had been with him could
only be shown the way once he became enlightened.

I agree that as we live in a Buddha sasana and have an opportunity to hear
and follow the teachings, we can show others the path as you say. (I think
these points relate to Dan's discussions. You may like to take it up with
him as well in September:-)).

Metta,

Sarah
=====


#60309	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:51 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reifying, .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Hi Tep (& Herman).

--- indriyabala <indriyabala@...> wrote:
> >S:
> > All conditioned dhammas have the general characteristics of anicca,
> dukkha and anatta as well as having their particular
> defining  characteristics.
> >
> > Have I missed your point?
> >
>
> Tep: You bet !
....
S: Please spell it out for me, if you feel inclined to do so!! (see below)

Metta,

Sarah
> > --- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> > > > > Good points. The Buddha knew that all conditioned dhammas
> are
> > > > >anatta, anicca and dukkha. That's what he taught. And the
> interesting
> > > > >thing is that there is not a single paramattha dhamma that can
> have
> > > > >its defining characteristic as well as being anatta, anicca or
> > > > >dukkha. Because how can an ultimate dhamma have two or
> more
> > > > >characteristics?


#60310	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:17 pm 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	sarahprocter... 
 	

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 28, Non-Attachment(Alobha)contd
*****
Questions

i Are all kinds of kusala helpful in order to be less selfish?

ii Why can calm when it is developed in samatha not
eradicate clinging?

iii Why is the development of insight the only way to become
detached from all objects?

iv Why has only the arahat eradicated clinging completely?
•****•*****•*****
Non-Attachment(Alobha)finished!

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60311	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:08 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: death and patience. 	hantun1 
 	

Dear Sarah (and Nina),

Thank you very much for your kind remarks.

Towards the end of my Dying Moments series, it will
become clear what I meant by “I did not hear what I
wanted to hear from others” and “I can be, at times,
very stubborn in my own foolish way” which were
entirely related to my previous postings in other
forums.

Please also join in the discussions when I reach the
part on my 'conclusions' in the later part of the
Dying Moments series.

I look forward to seeing you in Bangkok in mid-August.

Respectfully,
Han


--- sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
wrote:
> Dear Nina (& Han),

> S: I'm not sure what more to add. As Han mentioned,
> he wasn't referring to anything here or in Bkk when
> he made a comment about his past posts.
>
> Han, I appreciate all your posts. There was a very
> good one on the Samadhi Sutta, also your reply to
> Christine on the inclinations with the Pali was
> helpful and now I'm very glad to read your series on
> Death and further discussions with Nina and
> Lodewijk. Thank you.
>
> Metta,
> Sarah
> p.s Han, we'll look f/w to meeting you in Bangkok
> when we visit, mid-August.
> =====
>

#60312	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:27 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	hantun1 
 	

Dear Sarah and Nina,

I will try to answer these questions.
Please correct me if my answers are incorrect or
inadequate.

------------------------------

I     Are all kinds of kusala helpful in order to be
less selfish?

All kinds of kusala are helpful because alobha
accompanies each kusala citta, and we should not
neglect any one of them. If we help someone else or
listen to him with loving kindness and compassion
there are moments of giving up our selfishness. In
fact, all maha-kusala cittas (great moral
consciousness) are associated with knowledge
(nana-sampayuttam). With knowledge and right
understanding there is non-attchment with each kusala
citta. When kusala citta arises there is "wise
attention" to the object which is experienced, there
are no attachment, aversion and ignorance. The direct
understanding of nama and rupa will also lead to
detachment from them, and we will become less selfish.


But there are two points to consider.

First, normally we have more akusala cittas than
kusala cittas. Therefore even though we have
non-attachment with kusala cittas, these kusala cittas
do not last. When those kusala cittas fall away there
may arise akusala cittas with attachments.

Secondly, if we still have the wrong view of self, and
if we are not careful, we may end up with attachment
to "our kusala" itself, and we may tend to like the
idea of ourselves being good, and wise, and important,
and we may then be back to akusala cittas with
attachments.

------------------------------

II    Why can calm when it is developed in samatha not
eradicate clinging?

There are many degrees of non-attachment. Right
understanding is the condition for higher degrees of
non-attachment. If there is right understanding which
knows when there is akusala citta and when kusala
citta, there can be the development of calm. Calm can
be developed with samatha meditation such as
contemplation of loving kindness, the contemplation of
the Buddha's virtues, the foulness of the body or
other subjects. The citta with calm is accompanied by
non-attachment. When calm has been developed to the
degree of jhana, defilements are temporarily subdued.
This is called vikkhambhanappahaana (temporarily
subdued). It can only temporarily subdue pariyutthaana
kilesas for as long as jhaana lasts. It cannot
eradicate the underlying tendency (anusaya). There may
even be an attachment to one's own attainment of
jhana.

Another point to consider is: “What is clinging?” If
the word “clinging” in the question means “upaadaana”,
it is a very strong kilesa, and very difficult to
eradicate. There are four types of upaadaana.

(1) kaamupaadaana, sense desire or clinging to the
five sense-objects; it is lobha cetasika present in 8
lobha-muula cittas.

(2) ditthupaadaana, clinging to all false views except
the two views mentioned below; it is ditthi cetasika
present in 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas.

(3) siilabbatupaadaana clinging to false views that
one becomes pure and thus liberated by bovine and
canine morality or conduct; clinging to rites and
ceremonies; it is also ditthi cetasika present in 4
lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas.

(4) attavaadupaadaana, clinging to the theory that the
soul exists, and that I, you, he, she, persons, etc.,
exist; it is synonymous with ‘sakkaaya-ditthi’ which
is personality-belief. It is also ditthi cetasika
present in 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas.

The calm which is developed by samatha medittion is
not the path leading to the development of
understanding of realities, and therefore cannot
eradicate the above mentioned clingings or upaadaanas.

-------------------------------

III   Why is the development of insight the only way
to become detached from all objects?

I assume that by the “development of insight” the
questioner means attainment of magga nana. When
insight meditation reaches its climax, when it fully
comprehends the anicca, dukkha, and anattaa of
everything formed, the mind breaks through the
conditioned and realizes the unconditioned, Nibbana.
It sees Nibbana with direct vision, makes it an object
of immediate realization. The breakthrough to the
unconditioned is achieved by a type of consciousness
or mental event called the supramundane path
(lokuttaramagga). The supramundane path occurs in four
stages, four "supramundane paths," each marking a
deeper level of realization and issuing in a fuller
degree of liberation, the fourth and last in complete
liberation.

Insofar as they bind us to the round of becoming, the
defilements are classified into a set of ten "fetters"
(samyojana) as follows: (1) personality view, (2)
doubt, (3) clinging to rules and rituals, (4) sensual
desire, (5) aversion, (6) desire for fine-material
existence, (7) desire for immaterial existence, (8)
conceit, (9) restlessness, and (10) ignorance. The
four supramundane paths each eliminate a certain layer
of defilements.

The first, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga),
cuts off the first three fetters, the coarsest of the
set, eliminates them so they can never arise again.
The second path, the path of the once-returner
(sakadagami-magga) does not totally eradicate any of
the fetters, but it attenuates the roots of greed,
aversion, and delusion. The third path, the path of
the non-returner (anagami-magga), cuts off the two
fetters of sensual desire and ill will. The fourth
path, the path of arahatship (arahatta-magga) cuts off
the five remaining fetters — desire for fine-material
existence and desire for immaterial existence,
conceit, restlessness, and ignorance.

The path of arahatship strips away this last veil of
ignorance and, with it, all the residual mental
defilements. This path issues in perfect comprehension
of the Four Noble Truths. It fully fathoms the truth
of suffering; eradicates the craving from which
suffering springs; realizes with complete clarity the
unconditioned element, Nibbana, as the cessation of
suffering; and consummates the development of the
eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path.
[Source: The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi]

The above paragraphs show why the development of
insight is the only way to become detached from all
objects. But it must be noted that to become detached
from ALL objects it has to be the fourth path, the
path of arahatship (arahatta-magga).

------------------------------

IV   Why has only the arahat eradicated clinging
completely?

The answer to this question has already been touched
upon in the answer to the previous question. Only the
arahatta-magga nana can eradicate all defilements
including anusayas completely by way of
samucchedapahaana.

In this connection, I would like to quote a passage
from MN 112 Chabbisodana Sutta, how an arahant
contemplates the sense objects impinging upon the
sense doors.

“Friend, regarding the seen (dittha), I abide
unattracted (anupaayo), unrepelled (anapaayo),
independent (anissito), detached (appatibaddho), free
(vippamutto), dissociated (visamyutto), with a mind
rid of barriers (vimariyaa diikatena cetasaa
viharaami).”

In Burmese translation, there are some added
explanations.

unattracted (anupaayo) = unattracted by raaga.
unrepelled (anapaayo) = unrepelled by dosa.
independent (anissito) = independent from tanhaa,
ditthi.
detached (appatibaddho) = detached from chanda raaga.
free (vippamutto) = free from kaama-raaga samyojana.
dissociated (visamyutto) = dissociated from
conflicting dhammas.

All these terminologies denote the qualities of an
arahant.
These are to be repeated for the heard (suta), sensed
i.e., smell, taste, and touch (muta), and the cognized
(vinnaata).
This is how an arahant abides while experiencing the
sense objects impinging upon the sense doors.

In this regard, I also would like to repeat what Nina
had written about an arahant, which I like very much.

“The arahat has eradicated all forms of clinging and
this shows how hard it is to eradicate it. We may
think that we cannot be happy without attachment, but
complete detachment means the highest happiness, it is
freedom from all sorrow.”

------------------------------

What is alobha?

This question is not included in your questions.
I put it here because Nina’s explanation of the
characteristic, function, and manifestation of alobha
cetasika is excellent, and I would like to repeat them
again. I have also a question for Nina at the end.

(1) Non-attachment has the characteristic (lakkhanaa)
of non-adherence like a water drop on a lotus leaf.
The lotus grows in the water but it is not wetted by
the water, that is its nature. A drop of water glides
off a lotus leaf without affecting it, So it is with
non-attachment, alobha. It is not attached to the
object which is experienced, it is unaffected by it.
That is the nature of non-attachment. In Pali,
alaggabhaava lakkhanaa. (alagga = not stuck or
attached)

(2) The function (rasa) of non-attachment is, as we
have seen, "not appropriating, like an emancipated
monk". A monk who has attained arahatship does not
hold on to any object which presents itself; he is not
enslaved but completely detached and thus free,
emancipated. In Pali, apariggaha rasa. (apariggaha =
not to lay hold)

Here, I like Nina’s statement about its function:
[At the moment of non-attachment we renounce our own
pleasure and then there is peace of mind. It may seem
that at a particular moment a choice between kusala
and akusala can be made, but there is no self who
makes a choice; each moment of citta is conditioned by
many factors, It is not self but the cetasika alobha
which performs the function of detachment. We cannot
force ourselves to renounce sense-pleasures, but we
can learn the difference between the characteristic of
kusala and of akusala when they appear. Thus, we will
gradually see that kusala is beneficial and that
akusala is not beneficial but harmful.]

(3) The Atthasalini states that non-attachment has the
manifestation (paccupatthaanaa) of detachment like
someone who has fallen into a foul place. Someone who
falls into a cesspool does not consider that a place
of shelter where he could stay. He sees it as a
danger, as something to be abhorred, and therefore he
would get out of it as soon as possible. It is the
same with non-attachment, it does not take refuge in
what is actually a danger. In Pali,
analliinabhaavupatthaana. (ana = negative prefix,
liina = clinging, sticking)

--------------------

Question to Nina. In most cetasikas there is the
proximate cause (padatthaanaa) for each of them. Here,
no proximate cause is mentioned for alobha. Why do you
think it is so?

Respectfully,
Han


--- sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
wrote:

> Questions
>
> i Are all kinds of kusala helpful in order to be
> less selfish?
>
> ii Why can calm when it is developed in samatha not
> eradicate clinging?
>
> iii Why is the development of insight the only way
> to become detached from all objects?
>
> iv Why has only the arahat eradicated clinging
> completely?
> •****•*****•*****
> Non-Attachment(Alobha)finished!
> Metta,
> Sarah
> ======
>
>

#60313	From: "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:21 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	matheesha333 
 	

Hi Kel,Howard,

> > >>M: I think we also need to consider that someone who is a
> > sotapanna magga
> > >>cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is
not
> > a
> > >>mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place
> > anyone and
> > >>everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.
> > >>
> > >======================
> > >H:     I agree completely with that!
> >
> >  Kel: First I'll agree that a sotapanna cannot fall back.
However,
> > if after magga, phala will be invariably reached then what's the
> > need for striving?  Would it matter if it's right after or some
time
> > after if it's inevitable anyway?

M: :) thats an important point. I believe that when a person has the
level of insight a sotapanna magga has, he is not able to just stop
practicing, because that would be a negation of everything he has
understood.

Levels of motivation to practice are determined by how bad you think
the problem is. These people have real insight into the matter, into
tilakkana and arn't going to stop.

There is a nice sutta where a sekha is considered like a cow who
eats grass but also keeps it's mind on the calf all the time. The
similie describes the attitude of a sekha of going about daily life
but also keeping an eye out for the path all the time. It is not
possible to just stop.

> >K:   Second, the last statement is kinda misleading.  We can see
the
> > person a step below already obtained jhanas so this person
should at
> > least have higher panna than jhana, ie vipassana.


M: Having and jhana and doing vipassana doesnt mean that someone is
a sotapanna magga. IMO, and according to the mysterious missing
sutta which I mentioned, they must have the knowledge of arising and
passing away and gone further the stage of revulsion/nibbida. It is
after this that magga arises. They understand the problem and the
need for practice.

Thank you once again for this discussion. I think I can see that it
is magga (citta) which breaks the fetters.

>K: Btw, correlating
> > to visuddhi is something I just thought about using; I dunno if
any
> > text actually say that, I kinda doubt it.

M: A dollop of cintamaya panna, applied at the right point, IMO :)

with metta

Matheesha


#60314	From: "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:13 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	matheesha333 
 	

Hi Sarah, Howard

> M:> > I think we also need to consider that someone who is a
sotapanna
> magga
> > > cannot fall back and he will invariably reach phala. This is
not a
> > > mundane level of practice and it would be foolish to place
anyone and
> > > everyone who has some kind of 'practice' in this category.
> > >
> > ======================
> H:>        I agree completely with that!
> .....
> S: I don't think there has been any suggestion of lokuttara phala
cittas
> being represented by any 'mundane level of practice'.

M: No they are not and I didnt mean that :) Howard's answer
(..saving the me the troulble of typing it!) ..explains what I
meant! Thank you Howard.

S:...the commentary suggests (I believe), the 'one who has
> entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of stream-
entry' is
> not a sotapanna, but is next down in the list, i.e those developing
> insight/vipassana.
>
> If this understanding is not correct and the reference is (as you
suggest)
> to those who are sotapannas on the way to realising fruition (phala
> cittas), how do you understand the following lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi
> transl):
>
> "Herein, Ananda, by giving a gift to an animal, the offering may be
> expected to repay a hundredfold. By giving a gift to an immoral
ordinary
> person......a thousandfold. ....to a virtuous ordinary person.....a
> hundred-thousandfold.......to one outside (the Dispensation) who
is free
> from lust for sensual pleasures......a hundred-thousand times a
> hundred-thousandfold.
>
> "By giving a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the
realisation
> of the fruit of stream-entry, the offering may be expected to repay
> incaluculably, immeasurably. What then, should be said about
giving a gift
> to a stream-enterer? What should be said about giving a gift to
one who
> has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of
> once-return..........Tathagata......."
> ....
> S: Doesn't it strike you as odd that in the context of this sutta
that an
> offering to a stream-enterer is unmentionable as compared to the
already
> immeasurable greatness of the offering to the one on 'the way to
the
> realisation of the fruit of stream-entry' and so on for the other
classes?

M: Well Sarah, 'immeasurable, uncalculable' and unmentionable I
believe are apt terms for sotapanna magga and sotapanna phala
ariyas, not putajjanas with good practice.

>S: This is all just from the sutta itself - is the reading
suggesting
> 'fruition' occurs at a later time, i.e not immediately following
> attainment of path consciousness really so obvious here?

M: No it is not obvious, otherwise there would be no disucssion in
the first place. But taken together with other suttas i have read
about giving dana to arahantha maggas (possibly explained by those
striving for arahantha) and the 8 ariyans (possibly but unlikely
explanation IMO, 4 of them lasting a millisecond), maggamagga nana
appearing long before phala-citta in the visuddhis (possibly but a
less likely explanation of two 'magga' cittas, for each phala) my
vote goes for a magga-citta which arises sometime before a phala-
citta arises.


S: I think the sutta and commentary quote to AN 4, 170
> which Matheesha and I discussed recently may be relevant here as
well.
> (From #60151):
>
> >>"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by
> > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity,
the
> > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As
he
> > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
> > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Yuganaddha Sutta
> ....
> S: B.Bodhi's translation is similar, but he adds a helpful
footnote:
>
> " 'The path' (magga) is the first supramundane path, that of
stream-entry.
> To 'develop that path', according to AA [S: the commentary], means
to
> practice for the attainment of the three higher paths."

M: This seems reasonable, even though we shouldnt expect BB to be
all knowing, especialy since he said he doesnt have any special
attainments (even if he was breaking the 4th precept to uphlold
vinaya).

My personal beleif (not supported by suttas) is that the noble
eightfold path comes to completion and ensues in fruition at each of
the 4 stages. At the sotapanna stage phala is reached despite 10
fetters. The eightfold path has to be devfeloped to completion to
break even 3 of them.

> .....
>S: Thanks  all, for the good discussion on this topic.

M: Yes, I'm enjoying and learning as well. But its not something to
be taken seriously, but rather enjoyed!


with metta

Matheesha


#60315	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:59 am 
Subject: Naturally Radiant ... !!! 	bhikkhu_ekamuni 
 	

Friends:

The five Impurities block the Lucidity of Mind:

The Blessed Buddha once said:
There are five impurities of gold impaired by which it becomes neither pliant
nor wieldy, it lacks radiance, is weak & easily broken and cannot be formed...
What are these five impurities? They are: Iron, copper, tin, lead and silver.
But if the gold has been purified from these five impurities, then it will
indeed
be pliant and wieldy, radiant and firm, and can be formed well. Whatever kind
of jewellery one wishes to make from it, be it a diadem, earrings, a necklace or
a golden chain, it will easily serve that purpose well.
Similarly, there are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind is
neither pliant nor wieldy, it lacks radiant lucidity and stability, and cannot
concentrate well upon the eradication of the mental fermentations (asava).
What are these five impurities? They are:

         Sense-Desire,
         Evil-Will,
         Lethargy & Laziness,
         Restlessness & Regret,
         Doubt & Uncertainty...

But if the mind is freed of these five mental impurities, then it will be
plastic,
flexible, and wieldy, will be of radiant lucidity and firm calm stability, and
will
concentrate well upon the elimination of the mental fermentations. Whatever
supra-human state realizable by these higher mental abilities one may pursue,
one will in each case be able to directly experience it, as an eye-witness...

       Source (edited extract):
       The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya.
       The Book of Fives 23: Four deeds of Merit... [III: 16-7]

Comments:
The 4 mental fermentations are wrong, false & hidden assumptions associated
with:
1: Sense-desire (kamasava). Ex: "Sensing is only & always pleasant. Pain exists
not!"
2: Desiring becoming into new existence (bhavasava): Ex: "All life is good,
Death exists not!"
3: Wrong views (ditthasava): Ex: "I am better, know better & what I think is
thus never wrong!"
4: Ignorance (avijjasava): Ex: "Suffering, craving, ending craving & the Noble
Way exists not!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
  Friendship is the Greatest ...
  Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!!

  <...>


#60316	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:40 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Paul: pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	nilovg 
 	

Dear Paul,
op 08-06-2006 18:21 schreef Paul Grabianowski op
paulgrabianowski@...:

N: Kusala citta accompanied by paññaa is also accompanied by sati that is
aware. When there is mindfulness of a characteristic, paññaa can at that
moment develop.

P: This may be a stretch, but to see if I'm following you.  Would it be
correct to say that pannaa and sati can arise together with the same citta?
This would make sense because to understand that nama is nama and rupa is
rupa and that they are nonself would require an awareness of those
characteristics as they are now in the mind-door process (yet not
necessarily the initial impingement?).
------
N: They can arise together with the same citta.
All kusala cittas, of all levels including daana, etc.  are accompanied by
sati which is non-forgetful of kusala. Not all kusala cittas are accompanied
by paññaa. That is why they are classified as eight types: four accompanied
by paññaa, four without paññaa.
Also in a sense-door process there are javana cittas, and when these are
kusala cittas they can be of one of the eight types.
---------
N: Kusala citta accompanied by paññaa is also accompanied by sati that is
aware. When there is mindfulness of a characteristic, paññaa can at that
moment develop.

P: I think this helps me to better understand what is meant when it is said
that there are different degrees of pannaa.  What is at issue is not pannaa
itself for its own sake, but the return to what is here happening now.  The
degree of pannaa is dependent upon the conditions of nama and rupa in the
present moment and especially upon the accumulations of pannaa and sati in
previous moments which make the degree of detachment and understanding of
non-self possible in this moment.
-----
N: The degree of paññaa is dependent not upon the conditions of nama and
rupa in the present moment but on previous accumulations, in other words, to
the extent it has been developed by being aware of realities. And it is
dependent on listening to the Dhamma now, or discussing it.

N:When sati arises and is mindful of realities and paññå begins to study and
investigate their characteristics, one will begin to understand that the
outward appearance and all the details of things, all the different colours,
are only what appears through the eyes, nothing else. Then paññå begins to
penetrate the characteristics of realities as not a self, not a being, not a
person. If sati arises and is aware time and again, one will understand the
meaning of the Buddha¹s words explaining that, by the development of the
understanding of the realities which naturally appear, one will not cling to
the outward appearance and the details of things.

P:  When pannaa begins to penetrate the characteristics of reality, it is
dependent upon sati.  Panna of the characteristics of reality as not-self
can take place on many levels.  There is, for example, only intellectual
understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa from reading and
listening at first.  Eventually, there can be direct awareness (sati) of
what is happening here now, and pannaa is dependent upon that awareness
(sati) as a condition for the insight into the nature of reality.  Likewise,
the degree of sati would also seem to be dependent upon the degree of
pannaa.  In a way, wisdom follows awareness and awareness follows wisdom.
------
N: They condition one another by mutuality-condition. As paññaa grows, also
sati becomes keener. Sati of satipa.t.thaana is of a higher level than sati
of daana.

Just now we may find it difficult to be aware of visible object. We have not
listened enough and thus there is not enough understanding of what it is:
just what appears through the eyes. We need more intellectual understanding
and this can condition awareness of it when it appears, and at that moment
paññaa can have more understanding of its characteristic.
But we should not try to measure things or reason too much about it,
wondering: is it this level already or that level? Is it intellectual
understanding or direct understanding?
Acharn Sujin would say: just be aware of whatever appears. Are we not seeing
at this moment?
--------
P: It would appear that sati without pannaa or pannaa without sati would not
be possible.
------
N: sati without pannaa is possible, see above. But for satipa.t.thaana it
does not make much sense: sati without any understanding being developed.
What for?
Nina.


#60317	From: "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:14 am 
Subject: Anatta 	matheesha333 
 	

I will be making a 1-1.5 hr speech on Anatta, to members of an
interfaith group in London, representing buddhism. This will be
followed by a discussion.

What salient points should I include in it?


#60318	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:46 am 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Ken H.,

Thanks, you've clarified some aspects of this for me.  Sorry about the
"squiggles," I'm afraid its a bit of an obscure thing.  Herman made me
do it, really, since he thinks we are all just squiggles on a screen.
    Since he has a point in a way, I was just using his idiom.

K:  "That's what I was thinking of when I gave my answer - permanent
eradication of the five khandhas."

I guess this aspect of the question is one I ponder.  See below re:
"change through experience."

K:  "As you will have read many times on DSG, supramundane right view
is the cetasika that directly knows the characteristics of
nibbana. Mundane right view directly knows the characteristics of
conditioned dhammas. Intellectual right view (pariyatti) only knows
concepts of dhammas...There is another form of panna-cetasika that is
not unique to the Dhamma: it knows kusala from akusala."

I appreciate the above as a clear summation.  Thanks, Ken.

K:  "Is "change through experience" a common expression in Buddhist
parlance?"

Since I said it, it is likely totally foreign to Buddhist parlance.  I
think it was my attempt to refer to the more common phrase, "permanent
eradication of the five khandhas."  I guess I'm trying to learn more
about the reality of change as path factors arise and become
operative.  I just don't quite know a good way to put things.

K:  "With mundane insight, I think the operative factor is dispassion.
Panna sees the worthlessness of conditioned dhammas (sees them as a
dart, a canker etc.) and so, starting with the worst of them, the
desire and other conditions for their arising are dissipated."

Also very clarifying.  This very much helps with seeing the context of
the process.  I appreciate your assistance in this, Ken.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60319	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:19 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 
 	

Hi Scott,

It's going to be a bit preachy down below, so brace yourself :-)


>
>  Does this not demonstrate that one goes from one level to another?
>  And that these levels can also be seen as various points on a path?
>  And that there is a lokiya point through to a lokuttara point?  Does
>  this not demonstrate that this whole premise is imbedded in the Sutta?
>

The way in which lokuttara notions lead to new doctrines without any
basis in the Suttas or reality is especially pronounced when jhanas
become lokutarrajjhanas in the hands of the abhidhammikas.

There are a number of reasons for the demise of the dhamma. SN 16:13

"It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear.
It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property
that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's worthless people who arise
right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear. The
true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a ship sinks all at once.

"These five downward-leading qualities tend to the confusion and
disappearance of the true Dhamma. Which five? There is the case where
the monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers live
without respect, without deference, for the Teacher. They live without
respect, without deference, for the Dhamma... for the Sangha... for
the Training... for concentration. These are the five downward-leading
qualities that tend to the confusion and disappearance of the true
Dhamma.

Where it says concentration, you may safely replace that with jhanas.

What actually is the point of having a theory of paths and fruits,
Scott, if the suttas are unequivocal in their prescription against
conceiving of and mentating about anything beyond the immediately
given, should comprehension be the goal.


Sorry if that all sounds a bit stern :-)

Kind Regards


Herman


#60320	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:38 am 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Howard,

Here are some more synonyms as canditates.  There is a sort of
conceptual unity in the list which does suggest the sense as it seems
to be appropriate for the discussion:

H:  "One thought does occur to me: Possible alternatives for 'mundane'
and 'supermundane', though with their own deficiencies, might be
'worldly' and 'transcendent', respectively."

corporeal, earthly, human, material, physical, secular, somatic,
terrestrial, worldly, familiar

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60321	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 6:04 am 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 
 	

Dear Herman,

That didn't sound stern, although, were you being so with me?  Now its
my turn (seatbelt please).

H:  "The way in which lokuttara notions lead to new doctrines without
any basis in the Suttas or reality is especially pronounced when
jhanas become lokutarrajjhanas in the hands of the abhidhammikas.

What actually is the point of having a theory of paths and fruits,
Scott, if the suttas are unequivocal in their prescription against
conceiving of and mentating about anything beyond the immediately
given, should comprehension be the goal."

I think I've understood where you stand on the whole Abhidhamma thing,
Herman.  You see the enterprise as leading to the demise of the
Dhamma.  I'd say this is something to be dropped, at least in relation
to the question at hand since it seems to always be an argument past
the point (you might say, though, that it is the only point).  I think
I take your point.

To be blunt, I am well aware of the axe you choose to grind.  Might
you be letting this cloud your vision, having constantly to make your
point about the wrong-headedness of the abhidhammikas?  And, not to
mention, within a Forum which seems, to the contrary, to be rather
favourable disposed to the very group you have constantly to vilify.
I mean, I don't mind, but it does give one pause...

Rather, would you please respond directly to my point, or query, or
whatever, made to you regarding the Sutta you brought into the discussion:

I suggest that there is evidence in favour of considering an
incremental path-like progression imbedded in that particular passage.
I'm suggesting that this is not merely theoretical.  Surely there is a
reality to the progression towards cessation (or however one is to say
that) or what's the point? What do you say to this thesis?

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60322	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:18 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	upasaka_howard 
 	

Hi, Matheesha (and Kel) -

In a message dated 6/9/06 4:32:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dhammachat@... writes:

> >> Kel: First I'll agree that a sotapanna cannot fall back.
> However,
> >>if after magga, phala will be invariably reached then what's the
> >>need for striving?  Would it matter if it's right after or some
> time
> >>after if it's inevitable anyway?
>
> M: :) thats an important point. I believe that when a person has the
> level of insight a sotapanna magga has, he is not able to just stop
> practicing, because that would be a negation of everything he has
> understood.
>
> Levels of motivation to practice are determined by how bad you think
> the problem is. These people have real insight into the matter, into
> tilakkana and arn't going to stop.
>
========================
        Ahh, that's interesting! So, in other words, once the stream-entry
path has been attained, i.e. once one is a (lesser) stream enterer, all the
requsite conditions, including understanding and motivation, are sufficiently in
place to guarantee the regularity and quality of continued practice needed for
fr
uition of stream entry occur. I must say - that sounds very plausible and is
likely the case. In any case, should it even not be so ;-), it is a clever
solution. LOL!
        As I think of it, in fact, I believe you may have also hit upon the
reason, 'the mechanism," if you will, for the
only-so-many-more-lifetimes-until-full-enlightenment assertions the Buddha made
with regard to the various noble
stages! At each stage, all conditions have been met, including the
understanding and motivation, to guarantee continued practice at the level and
correctness needed to guarantee the stated time constraints. Seeing what the
mechanism
might be, even in terms as vague as this, is important, I think, for otherwise
the so-many-lifetimes statements can sound like magical facts to accept
blindly, and that is not the tenor of the Dhamma.

With metta,
Howard

#60323	From: "Joop" <jwromeijn@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 6:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	jwromeijn 
 	

Hallo Sarah

No, you have not missed my point
Your information is helpfull, I partly agree with it.

S: Upadana is also lobha cetasika. It is strong attachment or
clinging.
There are many different terms used for lobha in different contexts.

Let's take four terms:
Lobha, most times translated in english as 'greed'
Tanha ,…                                                    'craving'
Chanda, …                                                  'desire'
Upadana, …                                                'clinging'
or 'attachment'

I agree that lobha, tanha, chanda are different terms for more or
less the same phenomena, having a different gradation, and (in
different) contexts, a different 'color'.
But the difference with 'upadana' is - to me - more than a gradual
one.
Payutta says about it; "… clinging, a kind of mental preoccupation,
creating an attitude toward and evaluation of the object of desire."

I have seen that Nina (in Cetasika's, chapter 15) also
translates 'lobha' with 'attachment'.
A problem with this translation is that it makes the statement of the
Buddha "with craving (tanha=lobha) as condition there is clinging
(upadana=attachment)" vague.

On the other hand there is a relation. Ac. Anuruddha and Bhikkhu
Bodhi explain in the CMA in par. 7 of chapter VII (and not ch II
about cetasika's!):
"Four clingings: (1) clinging to sense pleasures, (2) clinging to
wrong views, (3) clinging to rites and ceremonies, (4) clinging to a
doctrine of self.
… the first may be understood as intensified craving for sense
pleasures, though the commentaries point out that this kind of
clinging can also be understood more broadly as craving for any of
the things of the world."

Still I'm not convinced: of the 12 moments of D.O. nr 8 (craving) and
nr. 9 (clinging) are the same, 'clinging' meaning 'more craving'.
Maybe this all is only a linguistic problem but I think it is more
than that.

Why is this important to me? wo reasons:
- For me D.O. applied to lifetime and the D.O. applied to one moment
is important. And 'upadana' is especially important because
contemplation that mechanism helps me in my to be DETACHED more and
more. And working on that I experience the difference
between 'desire/greed/' and 'attachment/clinging'

- We have had on different aspects a longstanding discussion what is
what is not one of the ultimate realities. You have stated for
example that 'accumulations' is and have arguments against it. And I
have a 'social citta' added to the list and you say that that is not
possible and not evident. With upadana it's again the question: how
abolute is the difference between a ultimate and a conventional
reality?
I'm more and more convinced that the difference is gradual.
To my pleasure Stephen batchelor says the same about the two truths in
http://www.tricycle.com/blog/stephen_batchelor/
(You will not agree with him. I think)

Metta

Joop


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
<sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Joop,
>
> ...
> S: Upadana is also lobha cetasika. It is strong attachment or
clinging.
> There are many different terms used for lobha in different contexts.
>
> Have I missed your point?
>
> Metta,
>
> Sarah
> =======
>


#60324	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:00 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, Matheesha -

In a message dated 6/9/06 7:16:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dhammachat@... writes:

> I will be making a 1-1.5 hr speech on Anatta, to members of an
> interfaith group in London, representing buddhism. This will be
> followed by a discussion.
>
> What salient points should I include in it?
>
=======================
        How nice! Congratulations! Here are a few points, in somewhat random
order, I would consider making:

        1) The conventional person is not nothing at all, but is not the
solid, self-existent entity we usually think it is. (Then go into details,
emphasizing the phenomena underlying the conventional person, and the
impersonality of
those phenomena.)

        2) Generalize the foregoing: Everything we think of as a self-existent
entity is either a mental construct, conceptually imputed on phenomena we
think of as its parts or, if truly experienced as a distinguishable phenomenon
(i.e., a nama or rupa) is, nonetheless, not a thing-in-itself, but exists only
momentarily as a contingent happening, whose very existence is "borrowed" and
conditional.

        3) The cornerstone of anatta is dependent arising and conditionality.
Go into this as much as the traffic will bear, and relate it to the emptiness,
insubstantality, and the "middle-way" mode of existence as expressed in the
Kaccayangota Sutta. You also might throw in a few quotes from the Uraga Sutta
of the Sutta Nipata.

With metta,
Howard


#60325
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:19 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	upasaka_howard 

Hi again, Matheesha -

        A couple other important things to include, I believe: Rebirth and
kamma, and how to understand these in the context of anatta. The classical
metaphor of lighting a new flame from an old one, and perhaps such modern
metaphors
as storm systems engendering subsequent storm systems and forest fires jumping
across chasms.

With metta,
Howard


#60326	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 7:24 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 

Hey Scott,

>
>  I think I've understood where you stand on the whole Abhidhamma thing,
>  Herman.  You see the enterprise as leading to the demise of the
>  Dhamma.  I'd say this is something to be dropped, at least in relation
>  to the question at hand since it seems to always be an argument past
>  the point (you might say, though, that it is the only point).  I think
>  I take your point.

Good.

>
>  To be blunt, I am well aware of the axe you choose to grind.  Might
>  you be letting this cloud your vision, having constantly to make your
>  point about the wrong-headedness of the abhidhammikas?
>  And, not to  mention, within a Forum which seems, to the contrary, to be
rather
>  favourable disposed to the very group you have constantly to vilify.
>  I mean, I don't mind, but it does give one pause...
>

What I think would be an honest thing for you to do next time you
post, would be to invite responses only from those you want to hear
from. That you don't want to hear from me I can understand, but please
loose the pretense of asking open ended questions.


>  Rather, would you please respond directly to my point, or query, or
>  whatever, made to you regarding the Sutta you brought into the discussion:
>
>  I suggest that there is evidence in favour of considering an
>  incremental path-like progression imbedded in that particular passage.
>  I'm suggesting that this is not merely theoretical.  Surely there is a
>  reality to the progression towards cessation (or however one is to say
>  that) or what's the point? What do you say to this thesis?
>

There is no progression that I read here from a puthujjana (worldling)
onwards. The worldling is not the start of the sequence. There is not
a hint of a suggestion that any of the conceptions and mentations of
the worldling are somehow a basis for a subsequent understanding. At
best we can infer that the worldling can come to realise that he is in
bondage, and unable to think his way out of trouble.

The point of departure, then, as I read it, is the understanding of
suffering and yearning for the unexcelled relief from that bondage.
Having failed to think himself out of trouble, what is left is to
"let him not conceive things about ...... so that he may comprehend
it.

I will happily acknowledge a progression from not conceiving things,
in order to understand, to not conceiving things, and understanding.

Do you think it is possible to not conceive things about ..... without
having developed concentration/samadhi/jhana? Do you think I am
grinding a personal axe, or do you think the Suttas author
overrepresents the centrality of the jhanas to the ending of suffering
?

Please answer as you see fit, which of course includes the not at all option :-)

Kind Regards


Herman


#60327	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:17 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Joop


I am bore (restless = akusala) so I jump into this particularly
interesting question :-)

Joop> Why is this important to me? wo reasons:
> - For me D.O. applied to lifetime and the D.O. applied to one
> moment  is important. And 'upadana' is especially important because
  contemplation that mechanism helps me in my to be DETACHED more and
more. And working on that I experience the difference
> between 'desire/greed/' and 'attachment/clinging'

k Dispeller of Delusion, para 846
<<846 (2) But as regards "the brief and full account of states",
firstly in brief sense desire clinging is called firmness of craving,
since it is said "Herein, what is sense-desire clinging? That which
in sense-desire is lust for sense desires, greed for sense desires,
delight in sense desires, craving for sense desires, love of sense
desires, fever of sense dersires, infatuattion with sense desires,
cleaving with sense desires  -- this is called sense desire clinging
(Dhs, 1214).  Firmness of craving is a name for subsequent craving
that has become firm owing to previous craving, which acts as its
decisive support condition.  But some have said; "Craving is the
aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's
stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an
object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping the
goods.....>>


Joop: We have had on different aspects a longstanding discussion what
> is  what is not one of the ultimate realities. You have stated for
> example that 'accumulations' is and have arguments against it. And
> I have a 'social citta' added to the list and you say that that is
> not  possible and not evident.

k:  I getting curious, could you tell me please.  I love topics that
relate to accumulations, latency, anatta and paramathas :-)


Joop: With upadana it's again the question: how abolute is the
difference between a ultimate and a conventional  reality?  I'm more
and more convinced that the difference is gradual.

k:  I dont know what you mean about difference in gradual. If you
dont mind, could you tell me more in detail.




Cheers
Ken O

#60328	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:26 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Han Tun

Just like to be naugthy on this particular one only (because I am
bore :-))


> All kinds of kusala are helpful because alobha
> accompanies each kusala citta, and we should not
> neglect any one of them. If we help someone else or
> listen to him with loving kindness and compassion
> there are moments of giving up our selfishness. In
> fact, all maha-kusala cittas (great moral
> consciousness) are associated with knowledge
> (nana-sampayuttam). With knowledge and right
> understanding there is non-attchment with each kusala
> citta. When kusala citta arises there is "wise
> attention" to the object which is experienced, there
> are no attachment, aversion and ignorance. The direct
> understanding of nama and rupa will also lead to
> detachment from them, and we will become less selfish.

k:  Yes all kusala are helpful but not all help us to develop the
path because we know that panna may not arise with alobha and amoha
just like compassion, loving kindness can arise without panna :-). So
having loving kindness and compassion may not help us out of this
samasara.   The rest of maha kusala - I agreed with you with all my
limbs :-)



Cheers
Ken O


#60329	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:28 am 
Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 7. 	nilovg 

Dear Friends,

This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel
251/253:

<6. Overcoming Birth and Death

If three things were not found in the world, the Perfect One, the Holy one
who is fully enlightened, would not appear in the world, nor would his
teaching and discipline shed their light over the world.

What are these three things? They are birth, old age and death. Because
these three are found in the world, the Prefect One, the Holy One who is
fully enlightened, has appear in the world, and his teaching and discipline
shed their light over the world.

It is, however, impossible to overcome birth, old age and death without
overcoming another three things, namely: greed, hatred and delusion.
~ ANGUTTARA NIKAYA 10:76

******
Nina.


#60330	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	nilovg 

Dear Han,
Thank you, you also help others in answering them. Thank you very much, and
I appreciate your kusala.
I may add something when appropriate. I leave out some of your texts for the
sake of shortening. I like the way you formulate things in your own personal
way.

op 09-06-2006 10:27 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:
------------------------------

I     Are all kinds of kusala helpful in order to be
less selfish?

All kinds of kusala are helpful .... In
fact, all maha-kusala cittas (great moral
consciousness) are associated with knowledge
(nana-sampayuttam).
---------
N: Four types are associated with knowledge, four types are not.
-------
H: With knowledge and right
understanding there is non-attachment with each kusala
citta.
-------
N: Also when it is not accompanied by understanding. Alobha is a sobhana
saadhaaranaa (universal) cetasika, it arises with each sobhana citta.
--------

H: When kusala citta arises there is "wise
attention" to the object which is experienced, there
are no attachment, aversion and ignorance. The direct
understanding of nama and rupa will also lead to
detachment from them, and we will become less selfish.

But there are two points to consider.

First, normally we have more akusala cittas than
kusala cittas. Therefore even though we have
non-attachment with kusala cittas, these kusala cittas
do not last. When those kusala cittas fall away there
may arise akusala cittas with attachments.

Secondly, if we still have the wrong view of self, and
if we are not careful, we may end up with attachment
to "our kusala" itself, and we may tend to like the
idea of ourselves being good, and wise, and important,
and we may then be back to akusala cittas with
attachments.
------------------------------
N: I like the way you formulate this.
-----------
II    Why can calm when it is developed in samatha not
eradicate clinging?

H: There are many degrees of non-attachment. Right
understanding is the condition for higher degrees of
non-attachment. If there is right understanding which
knows when there is akusala citta and when kusala
citta, there can be the development of calm. Calm can
be developed with samatha meditation such as
contemplation of loving kindness, ..... It can only temporarily subdue
pariyutthaana
kilesas for as long as jhaana lasts. It cannot
eradicate the underlying tendency (anusaya). There may
even be an attachment to one's own attainment of
jhana.

Another point to consider is: “What is clinging?” If
the word “clinging” in the question means “upaadaana”,
it is a very strong kilesa, and very difficult to
eradicate. There are four types of upaadaana.

(1) kaamupaadaana, sense desire or clinging to the
five sense-objects; it is lobha cetasika present in 8
lobha-muula cittas.

(2) ditthupaadaana....
(3) siilabbatupaadaana....
(4) attavaadupaadaana, clinging to the theory that the
soul exists, and that I, you, he, she, persons, etc.,
exist; it is synonymous with ‘sakkaaya-ditthi’ which
is personality-belief. It is also ditthi cetasika
present in 4 lobha-muula ditthi-sampayutta cittas.
--------
N: As I understood from some discussions in Thailand, attavaadupaadaana is
wider, includes more ways of wrong view than sakkaaya-ditthi.
-----------
H: The calm which is developed by samatha medittion is
not the path leading to the development of
understanding of realities, and therefore cannot
eradicate the above mentioned clingings or upaadaanas.

-------------------------------

III   Why is the development of insight the only way
to become detached from all objects?

I assume that by the “development of insight” the
questioner means attainment of magga nana.
------
N: The development of insight is not the same as the end result. We can
speak of it also at the beginning, it is a long way leading to the
attainment of enlightenment. And even at the beginning there can be some
degree of detachment, detachment from taking naama and ruupa for self. But
it is still very weak. It does not matter, it can develop.
---------
H: When
insight meditation reaches its climax, when it fully
comprehends the anicca, dukkha, and anattaa of
everything formed, the mind breaks through the
conditioned and realizes the unconditioned, Nibbana.
.....
Insofar as they bind us to the round of becoming, the
defilements are classified into a set of ten "fetters"
(samyojana).....

The first, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga),
cuts off the first three fetters,.....


[Source: The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi]

The above paragraphs show why the development of
insight is the only way to become detached from all
objects. But it must be noted that to become detached
from ALL objects it has to be the fourth path, the
path of arahatship (arahatta-magga).

------------------------------

IV   Why has only the arahat eradicated clinging
completely?

The answer to this question has already been touched
upon in the answer to the previous question. Only the
arahatta-magga nana can eradicate all defilements
including anusayas completely by way of
samucchedapahaana.

In this connection, I would like to quote a passage
from MN 112 Chabbisodana Sutta, how an arahant
contemplates the sense objects impinging upon the
sense doors.

“Friend, regarding the seen (dittha), I abide
unattracted (anupaayo), unrepelled (anapaayo),
independent (anissito), detached (appatibaddho), free
(vippamutto), dissociated (visamyutto), with a mind
rid of barriers (vimariyaa diikatena cetasaa
viharaami).”

In Burmese translation, there are some added
explanations.

unattracted (anupaayo) = unattracted by raaga.
unrepelled (anapaayo) = unrepelled by dosa.
independent (anissito) = independent from tanhaa,
ditthi.
detached (appatibaddho) = detached from chanda raaga.
free (vippamutto) = free from kaama-raaga samyojana.
dissociated (visamyutto) = dissociated from
conflicting dhammas.

All these terminologies denote the qualities of an
arahant.
These are to be repeated for the heard (suta), sensed
i.e., smell, taste, and touch (muta), and the cognized
(vinnaata).
This is how an arahant abides while experiencing the
sense objects impinging upon the sense doors.

In this regard, I also would like to repeat what Nina
had written about an arahant, which I like very much.

“The arahat has eradicated all forms of clinging and
this shows how hard it is to eradicate it. We may
think that we cannot be happy without attachment, but
complete detachment means the highest happiness, it is
freedom from all sorrow.”

------------------------------

What is alobha?

This question is not included in your questions.
I put it here because Nina’s explanation of the
characteristic, function, and manifestation of alobha
cetasika is excellent, and I would like to repeat them
again.
(1) Non-attachment has the characteristic (lakkhanaa)
of non-adherence like a water drop on a lotus leaf....
(2) The function (rasa) of non-attachment is, as we
have seen, "not appropriating, like an emancipated
monk".....

Here, I like Nina’s statement about its function:
[At the moment of non-attachment we renounce our own
pleasure and then there is peace of mind. It may seem
that at a particular moment a choice between kusala
and akusala can be made, but there is no self who
makes a choice; each moment of citta is conditioned by
many factors, It is not self but the cetasika alobha
which performs the function of detachment. We cannot
force ourselves to renounce sense-pleasures, but we
can learn the difference between the characteristic of
kusala and of akusala when they appear. Thus, we will
gradually see that kusala is beneficial and that
akusala is not beneficial but harmful.]

(3) The Atthasalini states that non-attachment has the
manifestation (paccupatthaanaa) of detachment like
someone who has fallen into a foul place. .....

--------------------

Question to Nina. In most cetasikas there is the
proximate cause (padatthaanaa) for each of them. Here,
no proximate cause is mentioned for alobha. Why do you
think it is so?
------
N: The Atthasaalinii in the same passage (and the Visuddhimagga) does not
give the proximate cause of dosa either. It takes the three sobhana hetus
together and gives a great deal of info, it mentions many aspects. Perhaps
that is the reason. For example: <Through insight into impermanence arises
absence of greed...through insight into dukkha arises absence of
hate...through insight into anattaa arises absence of delusion.>
In the commentaries it is said that wise (or right, yoniso) attention is the
proximate cause for all kusala.
*****
Nina.


#60331	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pariyatti, patipoatti, pativedha. 	nilovg 

Dear Ken O,
True, it helps us to have more confidence, everybody can verify this for
himself. Thank you for the quote of Dispeller, I shall read it in context,
Nina.
op 09-06-2006 06:23 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@...:

  it is samma dithi that
help us increase our saddha toward Buddha Dhamma even though we dont
see the paramthas level of the dhamma.  I remember I quote this
paragraph that I wrote to Dan recently on Right View

The dispeller of delusion, pg 139 para 552.



#60332	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, Ken (and Joop) -

In a message dated 6/9/06 11:19:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ashkenn2k@... writes:

> Joop: We have had on different aspects a longstanding discussion what
> >is  what is not one of the ultimate realities. You have stated for
> >example that 'accumulations' is and have arguments against it. And
> >I have a 'social citta' added to the list and you say that that is
> >not  possible and not evident.
>
> k:  I getting curious, could you tell me please.  I love topics that
> relate to accumulations, latency, anatta and paramathas :-)
>
======================
        LOL! That "love" wouldn't be an instance of upadana, by any chance, w
ould it?    ;-))

With metta, and with tongue somewhat in cheek,
Howard

P.S. I agree with you that these are very interesting matters.


#60333	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:42 am 
Subject: Not Outside the Buddha Discipline - Why there is no liberation out of Buddha Teaching 	ashkenn2k 

Hi All

Recently I read in the mail that why should only Buddha's teaching
can help liberate beings and not others.

from Numerical Discourses of the Buddhha - Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter
of the Tens, pg 263, Not Outside the Buddha Discipline

<<Ten things monk do not have purity and clairty outside the
Discipline of the Sublime Master.  What are the ten?
(X, 123) Right view, right intention, right speech, right action,
right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right
concentration, right knowledge, right liberation
(X, 124) And if these ten things have not arisen, they will not arise
outside the Discipline of the Sublime Master
(X, 125) Outside the Discipline of the Sublime Master, these ten
things will not be of great fruit and benefit
(X, 126) Outside the Discipline of the Subline Master, these ten
things will not end in the elimination of greed, hatred and delusion
(X, 127) Outside the Discipline of the Sublime Master, these ten
things will not conduce to complete disenchantment, dispassion,
cessation, peace, direct knowledge, enlightenment and Nibbana>>



Cheers
Ken O


#60334	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 9:11 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Howard

> ======================
>        LOL! That "love" wouldn't be an instance of upadana, by any
> chance, would it?    ;-))

K:  LOL, you are right :-) I didn't realise it until you tell me.
Isn't upadana a very tricky dhamma?  Cheers


Ken O


#60335	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:46 am 
Subject: Possibly My "Missing Sutta": The Gotami Sutta 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, all -

        The sutta I had in mind was more explicit in saying something along
the lines of  *wherever there should be found teachings* that conduce "to
passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to
accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to
discontent,
not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to
aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome" - that is
the
Buddha's Dhamma.
        Now, it may be that this actually *is* the sutta I had in mind but
that I had seen a somewhat different translation than given on ATI. The version
on ATI follows:

_______________________

I have heard that at on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Vesali,
in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest.Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to
the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As
she was standing there she said to him:
"It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in
brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell
alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute."
"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead:


> to passion, not to dispassion;
> to being fettered, not to being unfettered;
> to accumulating, not to shedding;
> to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty;
> to discontent, not to contentment;
> to entanglement, not to seclusion;
> to laziness, not to aroused persistence;
> to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome':
>

You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya,
this is not the Teacher's instruction.'
"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These
qualities lead:


> to dispassion, not to passion;
> to being unfettered, not to being fettered;
> to shedding, not to accumulating;
> to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement;
> to contentment, not to discontent;
> to seclusion, not to entanglement;
> to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being
> burdensome':

You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the
Teacher's instruction.'
"That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted
at his words.— AN VIII.53
________________________

With metta,
Howard

#60336	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 11:28 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	nilovg 

Hi Howard and Matheesha,
this is an excellent summary of essential points and well formulated,
I really appreciate this. I hope Matheesha will tell us about the questions.
Nina.
op 09-06-2006 16:00 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:


In a message dated 6/9/06 7:16:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dhammachat@... <mailto:dhammachat%40hotmail.com>  writes:

> I will be making a 1-1.5 hr speech on Anatta, to members of an
> interfaith group in London, representing buddhism. This will be
> followed by a discussion.

1) The conventional person is not nothing at all, but is not the
solid, self-existent entity we usually think it is. (Then go into details,
emphasizing the phenomena underlying the conventional person, and the
impersonality of
those phenomena.)

2) Generalize the foregoing: Everything we think of as a self-existent
entity is either a mental construct, conceptually imputed on phenomena we
think of as its parts or, if truly experienced as a distinguishable
phenomenon
(i.e., a nama or rupa) is, nonetheless, not a thing-in-itself, but exists
only
momentarily as a contingent happening, whose very existence is "borrowed"
and
conditional.

3) The cornerstone of anatta is dependent arising and conditionality.
Go into this as much as the traffic will bear, and relate it to the
emptiness,
insubstantality, and the "middle-way" mode of existence as expressed in the
Kaccayangota Sutta. You also might throw in a few quotes from the Uraga
Sutta
of the Sutta Nipata.


#60337	From: "indriyabala" <indriyabala@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:35 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Reifying, .. All of These Are Just Different Perspectives 	indriyabala 

Hi Sarah, -

You wrote to Herman earlier:
> > > All conditioned dhammas have the general characteristics of
> > >anicca,dukkha and anatta as well as having their particular
> > defining  characteristics.
> > >
> > > Have I missed your point?
> > >

And I thought you had missed Herman's point.
> > Tep: You bet !
.............

Then you requested:

> S: Please spell it out for me, if you feel inclined to do so!! (see
below)

> > >Herman :
> > >And the interesting thing is that there is not a single
> > >paramattha dhamma that can have
> > >its defining characteristic as well as being anatta, anicca or
> > >dukkha. Because how can an ultimate dhamma have two or more
> > >characteristics?

Tep: Precisely, the missed point was : "Because how can an ultimate
dhamma have two or more characteristics?"

I think Herman is the best person who should reply to you.

Sincerely,


Tep
=======
#60338	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 9:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, Nina (and Matheesha) -

In a message dated 6/9/06 2:29:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

> Hi Howard and Matheesha,
> this is an excellent summary of essential points and well formulated,
> I really appreciate this. I hope Matheesha will tell us about the questions.
> Nina.
>
=======================
        Thank you, Nina! :-) I really appreciate your generous words.

With metta,
Howard


#60339	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:40 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Not Outside the Buddha Discipline - Why there is no liberation out of Buddha Teaching 	egberdina 

Hi KenO,

I don't disagree with anything you say. But for the sake of balance,
there are a few things within the dispensation to be careful of as
well. For the weakening of the dispensation comes from within.

>  from Numerical Discourses of the Buddhha - Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter
>  of the Tens, pg 263, Not Outside the Buddha Discipline
>
>  <<Ten things monk do not have purity and clairty outside the
>  Discipline of the Sublime Master.  What are the ten?
>  (X, 123) Right view, right intention, right speech, right action,
>  right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right
>  concentration, right knowledge, right liberation

SN 16:13
SN 20:7
AN V:79
AN V:80
AN VII:56

No respect for Teacher
No respect for Dhamma
No respect for Sangha
No respect for Training
No respect for concentration
No respect for heedfulness
No respect for hospitality
Listening to literary works instead of Teachings
Monks undeveloped in body
Monks undeveloped in virtue
Monks undeveloped in mind
Monks undeveloped in discernment
Monks neglecting to wear cast-off cloth
Monks neglecting to go for alms
Monks neglecting to live in isolated forest and wilderness dwellings

So the unfortunate reality for the modern wayfarer is that they cannot
just latch on to what is presented to them as Dispensation, and
blindly run with it.

Kind Regards



Herman


#60340	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:33 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	hantun1 

Dear Ken,

Thank you very much for your comments.
Only one thing.
You said that “panna may not arise with alobha and
amoha.”
Your statement may be true with alobha, but “panna may
not arise with amoha” is difficult to take.
In Abhidhamma, panna, nana and amoha are synonyms.
[page 95, The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm
Tin Mon.]

Metta,
Han


--- Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:

> Hi Han Tun
> k:  Yes all kusala are helpful but not all help us
> to develop the
> path because we know that panna may not arise with
> alobha and amoha
> just like compassion, loving kindness can arise
> without panna :-). So
> having loving kindness and compassion may not help
> us out of this
> samasara.   The rest of maha kusala - I agreed with
> you with all my
> limbs :-)
> Cheers
> Ken O
>


#60341	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:53 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	hantun1 

Dear Nina,

Thank you very much for your valuable comments.

Respectfully,
Han
============

--- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> H: With knowledge and right understanding there is
> non-attachment with each kusala citta.
> -------
> N: Also when it is not accompanied by understanding.
> Alobha is a sobhana saadhaaranaa (universal)
> cetasika, it arises with each sobhana citta.
> --------

> H: (4) attavaadupaadaana, clinging to the theory
that
> the soul exists, and that I, you, he, she, persons,
> etc., exist; it is synonymous with ‘sakkaaya-
> ditthi’  which is personality-belief. It is also
> ditthi cetasika present in 4 lobha-muula ditthi-
> sampayutta cittas.
> --------
> N: As I understood from some discussions in
> Thailand, attavaadupaadaana is wider, includes more
> ways of wrong view than sakkaaya-ditthi.
> -----------

> H: I assume that by the “development of insight” the
> questioner means attainment of magga nana.
> ------
> N: The development of insight is not the same as the
> end result. We can speak of it also at the
> beginning, it is a long way leading to the
> attainment of enlightenment. And even at the
> beginning there can be some degree of detachment,
> detachment from taking naama and ruupa for self. But
> it is still very weak. It does not matter, it can
> develop.
> ---------

H: Question to Nina. In most cetasikas there is the
> proximate cause (padatthaanaa) for each of them.
> Here, no proximate cause is mentioned for alobha.
> Why do you think it is so?
------
> N: The Atthasaalinii in the same passage (and the
> Visuddhimagga) does not give the proximate cause of
> dosa either. It takes the three sobhana hetus
> together and gives a great deal of info, it mentions
> many aspects. Perhaps that is the reason. For
> example: <Through insight into impermanence arises
> absence of greed...through insight into dukkha
> arises absence of hate...through insight into
> anattaa arises absence of delusion.> In the
> commentaries it is said that wise (or right, yoniso)
> attention is the proximate cause for all kusala.


#60342	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 6:34 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 

Hey Herman,

Thanks for your reply.

H:  "What I think would be an honest thing for you to do next time you
post, would be to invite responses only from those you want to hear
from. That you don't want to hear from me I can understand, but please
lose the pretense of asking open ended questions."

I do want to hear from you, Herman!  I'm learning a lot.  It is an
open ended question for real; no pretense.

We just happen to disagree.

Not only do I get to try to see where you're coming from in all this,
but I get to read Suttas I've not read (your recommendation), practise
mindfulness, try to respond well to you which includes being polite,
direct, as honest as I can, as clear as I can, and trying to be open
to your correction.  At times I don't find it easy nor, clearly, am I
always successful, but in no way do I not want to hear from you.  I do.

The heart of your answer, below, is what I like; I can work with it:

H:  "There is no progression that I read here from a puthujjana
(worldling) onwards. The worldling is not the start of the sequence.
There is not a hint of a suggestion that any of the conceptions and
mentations of the worldling are somehow a basis for a subsequent
understanding. At best we can infer that the worldling can come to
realise that he is in bondage, and unable to think his way out of trouble.

If there is no progression, what is there?  How do you define
"progression?"  Perhaps we are understanding the same word differently.

I would think the the worldling is the "start of the sequence."  How
else does anyone progress?  What are we now?  How are we even engaging
in this study of the Dhamma?  Neither of us were born to it, and even
that is no guarantee.  Isn't there a term for what occurs when a
worldling "comes to realise he is in bondage?"

This sort of realisation is very important.  I don't think that this
is something to be inferred, it is something that can happen.  A
worldling can go from the state of being a worldling, with all that
that implies, to a realisation that things are absolutely and truly
not as they had seemed instants before and spontaneously.  This is not
a theoretical statement.

"I will happily acknowledge a progression from not conceiving things,
in order to understand, to not conceiving things, and understanding."

What do you mean here, exactly?  Sorry, its not clear.  Are you saying
that one could progress, by practising non-conceptualisation, from a
point of no understanding to one of understanding?

"Do you think it is possible to not conceive things about .....
without having developed concentration/samadhi/jhana?"

Yes.

"Do you think I am grinding a personal axe..."

Yes, and I don't mind.

"...or do you think the Sutta's author overrepresents the centrality
of the jhanas to the ending of suffering?"

No I don't.  He teaches other ways as well.  We both know that people
nowadays seem to have their preferences.

I hope we can continue, Herman.  Thanks.

Sincerely,

Scott.



#60343	From: "kelvin_lwin" <kelvin_lwin@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 6:47 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	kelvin_lwin 

Hi Han and KenO,

   I think he meant to type adosa.

- Kel

> Thank you very much for your comments.
> Only one thing.
> You said that "panna may not arise with alobha and
> amoha."
> Your statement may be true with alobha, but "panna may
> not arise with amoha" is difficult to take.
> In Abhidhamma, panna, nana and amoha are synonyms.
> [page 95, The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm
> Tin Mon.]



#60344	From: "kelvin_lwin" <kelvin_lwin@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 6:43 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	kelvin_lwin 

Hi Howard and Matheesha, (Tep, Eric, James)

   I think we can agree that until one is an arahat, there's not much
to do but to keep "striving" toward that goal.  I'm going to put a
few technical points below but this is not really a big issue to me.

> M: Levels of motivation to practice are determined by how bad you
think
> the problem is. These people have real insight into the matter,
into
> tilakkana and arn't going to stop.

    Kel: Howard used lesser-stream-enterer as a way of describing
your position.  It's funny coincidence since that's the topic I was
discussing with Sarah in another thread (cula-sotapanna).  You can
see that most of what you say would agree with this commentary
position about cula-sotapannas.  My position there is that even up
to sankharupekkha-nana, there's no guarantee of obtaining
magga/phala and in that stage tilakkana is pretty well known
already.  Perhaps more importantly we have this from maha-
parinibbana, DN 16:

"You, Ananda, speak out of confidence, while there is knowledge in
the Tathagata that, in this community of monks, there is not even a
single monk who has any doubt or perplexity concerning the Buddha,
Dhamma, or Sangha, the path or the practice. Of these 500 monks, the
most backward is a stream-winner, not destined for the planes of
deprivation, headed to self-awakening for sure."

Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I
exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about
completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words.

    Kel: What would be the need for warning and to be heedful for
post-stream-enterers?

> M: Having and jhana and doing vipassana doesnt mean that someone
is
> a sotapanna magga.

   Kel: I wanted to clarify a point about two maggas you mentioned in
eariler post and alluded to here.  That was not my intention or
contention.  The phrasing (I looked at pali some too) was "on the
path to the fruit of stream-entry" .  So I wanted to point out was
when the path is seen and when one can actually be considered to be
on the path according to visuddhis/nanas.  I think it's pretty lofty
position that is hard to attain and more importantly maintain.

    Also look at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-254.html
    Here the fruit is used and it would be a mistake to say path is
attainable but not fruit.

    Quoting MN 48:
   "He discerns that, 'I am endowed with the strength of a person
consummate in view.' This is the seventh knowledge attained by him
that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill
people.

"A disciple of the noble ones thus possessed of seven factors has
well examined the character for the realization of the fruit of
stream-entry. A disciple of the noble ones thus possessed of seven
factors is endowed with the fruit of stream-entry."

   You get comparison between fruit vs run-of-the-mill.  I think
there's a case for path/fruit/attainments being used
interchangeably.  Since you guys are Sutta experts, is there any
stories of one who already reached magga but striving toward phala
or something close to that?

   Actually while I have your attention I have a question.  I recall
discussion you were having with Eric about Jhana, Matheesha.  Also
Howard I know you have sat at Goenka's retreat once.  Please look at
following link:
http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002b/jhana.htm

   I was struck on the similarity of the techniques and one curiously
call it jhana and the other vipassana.  What are your thoughts?
Thanks.

- kel


#60345	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 7:00 pm 
Subject: Dying Moments – 4 	hantun1 

Dying Moments – 4

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

Maranaasanna Vithi

When the maranaasanna-nimitta appears at one of the
six doors, the avajjana-citta (adverting
consciousness) will pick up the sense object and a
stream of consciousness, known as maranaasanna-vithi,
flows on. In accordance with the kamma that is going
to produce next rebirth, an akusala or kusala citta
normally functions 5 times as javanas in these vithis.
These javanas are known as ‘maranaasanna-javanas.’

Cakhu-dvaara Maranaasanna Vithis

The present kamma-nimitta or the gati-nimitta strikes
the eye-door at the arising instant of the first
atiita-bhavanga. If it is of very great intensity, it
becomes distinct at the arising instant of
bhavanga-calana. The life continuum (bhavanga)
vibrates for two conscious moments and is cut off.
Then, observing the nimitta, pancadvaaraavajjana,
cakkhu vi~n~naana, sampaticchana, santirana,
votthapana, five javanas, two tadaalambanas and one
bhavanga arise in series. Then the death-consciousness
(cuti) occurs when the person dies. If the intensity
of the nimitta is of lesser intensity, cuti follows
tadaalambana directly without any intervention of a
bhavanga-citta.

Immediately after the dissolution of the
death-consciousness, the rebirth-consciousness
(patisandhi-citta) arises in the next life without any
break in the stream of consciousness and without any
lapse in time. The next life may appear in a very far
place like a brahma realm, yet there is no lapse in
time.

Thus for the stream of consciousness to flow on, there
is no barrier in time and space. The idea of timeless
and spaceless is realized here. Also the idea that the
soul wanders around before it enters the next life is
not correct. There is no soul nor person in Abhidhamma
– there are only incessant flows of naama stream and
ruupa stream in accordance with the Law of Dependent
Origination.

Mano-dvaara Maranaasanna Vithis

When the ‘kamma’ which is going to produce next
rebirth or the ‘kamma-nimitta’ or the ‘gati-nimmita’
related to that kamma appears at the mind-door, the
life-continuum vibrates twice and is cut off. Then
mano-dvaaraavajjana adverts the stream of
consciousness towards the object, observes the object
and makes its decision. Then come five javanas
followed by two tadaalambanas and one or no bhavanga.
Then the death-consciousness (cuti) occurs when the
person dies. Immediately after death, the
rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi) arises in the next
life without any break in the stream of consciousness.
After that the life continuum (bhavanga) flows on in
the next life.

------------------------------

To be continued.

Respectfully,
Han


#60346	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:12 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Han

oops, sorry you are right, it should be adosa

fingers too fast

cheer
Ken O


--- han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

> Dear Ken,
>
> Thank you very much for your comments.
> Only one thing.
> You said that “panna may not arise with alobha and
> amoha.”
> Your statement may be true with alobha, but “panna may
> not arise with amoha” is difficult to take.
> In Abhidhamma, panna, nana and amoha are synonyms.
> [page 95, The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm
> Tin Mon.]
>
> Metta,
> Han
>
>
> --- Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Han Tun
> > k:  Yes all kusala are helpful but not all help us
> > to develop the
> > path because we know that panna may not arise with
> > alobha and amoha
> > just like compassion, loving kindness can arise
> > without panna :-). So
> > having loving kindness and compassion may not help
> > us out of this
> > samasara.   The rest of maha kusala - I agreed with
> > you with all my
> > limbs :-)
> > Cheers
> > Ken O
> >
>


#60347	From: "Joop" <jwromeijn@...> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 9:09 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	jwromeijn 

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
>
...

Hallo Ken O, Howard, Sarah, all

Of course you may jump, discussions are not personal but topic-
oriented to me
Ken, two (kind of) answers and two questions

k: I getting curious, could you tell me please. I love topics that
relate to accumulations, latency, anatta and paramathas :-)

J: Sarah states that "accumulations" is an ultimate reality; and I
state that that is not possible, for two reasons:
- "accumulations" do not arise and fall away within some milliseconds
(what is the case with ultimate realities, except nibbana)
- "accumulations" do not occur on the list of 89/121 cittas+52
cetasikas+28 rupas+1 nibbana


k: I dont know what you mean about difference in gradual. If you dont
mind, could you tell me more in detail.

J: I don't mind but I don't see the problem you have. The difference
between 7 kilometer and 10 kilometer is gradual; the difference
between 7 kilometer and a pound of sucre is fundamental: they belong
to different classes, to different categories, they are uncomparable.
And my opinion (spoken with care) is: perhaps the difference
between "ultimate realities" and 'conventional realities" (aka
concepts) is gradual and not fundamental.


My first question is about your quote of 'Dispeller of Delusion'. I
don't understand why you quote this, does is prove anything? Or do
you mean that the term "sense desire clinging" in it makes it clear
that desire=clinging? Not to me; to me nr 8 of D.O. is not the same
as nr 9. Do you agree with that?


My second question is about what you said to Howard:
Ken: "Isn't upadana a very tricky dhamma?"

J: I agree it is tricky, but is it a dhamma, an ultimate reality? Or
is it a concept?


Metta

Joop


#60348	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:16 am 
Subject: The Fire of Sense-Desire ... !!! 	bhikkhu_ekamuni 

Friends:

The Urge for Sensing Pleasure is an Obsessive Addiction!


Sense-Desire is the first, deepest and most common mental hindrance (Nivarana).
The texts given below aim at illustrating how this obsessive and addictive urge
for
sensing only pleasure in the form of sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touches
arise,
cease, and is finally cured. The present-day dominance of the porno &
entertainment
industry speaks -in itself- clearly of this problems abundance among humans
today...

First priority: Noticing Sense-Desire (kama-chanda) -in itself- makes it fade
away:
Herein, Bhikkhus, when sense-desire is present in him the bhikkhu notes &
understands:
"There is sense-desire in me," and when sense-desire is absent, he notes &
understands:
"There is no sense-desire in me." He also understands how unarisen sense-desire
arises.
He understands how to leave behind any arisen sensual desire, and he understands
how
left sense-desire will not arise again in the future.
MN 10

What is the feeding cause that makes Sense-Desire arise?
There are attractive and alluring features and aspects of any object, frequently
giving
irrational & unwise attention to them, this is the feeding cause of the arising
of unarisen
sense-desire, and the feeding cause of the increase and expansion of
sense-desire that
already has arisen.
SN 46:51

What is the starving cause that makes Sense-Desire cease?
There are disgusting and repulsive features and aspects of any object,
frequently giving
rational & wise attention to them, this is the starving cause of the non-arising
of unarisen
sense-desire, and the starving cause of the decrease and shrinking of
sense-desire that
already has arisen.
SN 46:51


Which medicine cures Sense-Desire, so that it does not re-arise again in the
future?
Six things leads to the gradual leaving behind of sense-desire:
1. Learning how to meditate on ugly & disgusting objects.
2. Frequent & intense meditation on disgusting objects.
3. Guarding the sense doors.
4. Moderation in eating.
5. Noble friendship with one who knows how to quell sense-desire.
6. Suitable conversation on the disadvantages of hedonism.

                                                                                           
Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta

1. Learning how to meditate on disgusting objects.
Meditation on disgusting objects produces repulsion towards attractive objects
as a result.
                                                                                                                     
AN 5:36

The 32 inner organs of the body; A skin sac of bones with 9 oozing holes:
Herein, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body, confined within the skin
and full of
manifold ugly impurities from the soles upward and from the top of the hair
downwards:
"There is in this body: head-hair, body-hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews,
bones, marrow,
kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, bowels, stomach,
excrement, bile, pus,
blood, sweat, fat, tears, lymph, spit, slime, snot, joint-fluid, urine and the
brain in the skull."

The 9 Corpse Contemplations:
The Bhikkhu goes to a cemetery to see a corpse one day, two days, three days
dead:
Bloated, livid, putrid, rotting, stinking & festering, he applies it to this
very body:
'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable
destiny'...
He meditates as if he were seeing a corpse cast away in a cemetery, picked at by
crows,
vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other animals ... a skeleton
covered partly
with flesh & blood, connected with sinews ... a fleshless skeleton smeared with
blood,
connected with tendons ... a skeleton without meat as a chain of bones connected
with
tendons... as bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions;
here a
hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shinbone, there a thigh bone, here a hip
bone,
there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a
neck
bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull...the bones whitened,
somewhat like
the colour of sea-shells ... piled up, more than a year old ... crumbling into
black powder.
This is awareness focused on the body merely as a putrid & rotting form of
matter...
                                                                                                                        
MN 10

As inspiration for this acquisition of the sign of disgust (asubha-nimitta)
curing any lust
have a collection of corpse pictures been deposited at the link below. It can
only be viewed
by adults > 18 years logged in with Yahoo ID:
http://asia.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/clever_disgust/album?.dir=/f672
Such memorized image of severe disgust is then directed to whenever greedy lust
re-arise.
If the memorized image is vivid then this urge of desire instantly vanish since
disgust and
desire cannot co-exist in the mind. Even just noting the desire can cure it
since such an
advantageous awareness cannot occur in combination with detrimental thought of
lust.
Therefore, at the time of knowing the sense desire, that arose in the preceding
moment,
that sense desire no longer exists, but only the act of awareness knowing &
noting it...
<....>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
  Friendship is the Greatest ...
  Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!!

<....>


#60349	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:16 am 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 469- Non-Aversion/Adosa (a) 	sarahprocter... 

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa)
*****
Non-aversion or non-hate, is one of the three sobhana hetus,
beautiful roots. As we have seen, each sobhana citta is rooted in
non-attachment and non-aversion, and it may or may not be
rooted in wisdom. We may notice it when we have aversion,
dosa, but we may not know the characteristic of non-aversion,
adosa.

We dislike having aversion because it is always accompanied
by unpleasant feeling. When the aversion is gone we may think
that there is non-aversion but is that so? At this moment there
may not be aversion but can we be sure that there is non-aversion
which accompanies kusala citta?

There may be attachment to visible object and then there cannot be
non-aversion at the same time. Whenever there is non-aversion there has to
be nonattachment, alobha, as well and several other sobhana cetasikas
which each perform their own function while they assist the kusala
citta.
*****
Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60350	From: "Phil" <philco777@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:11 am 
Subject: Wise words from Phra Dhammadaro 	philofillet 

Hi all

   Phra Dhammadaro:

   "People sometimes - when they begin to see how much wrong
understanding they have - get very depressed, but they should be
delighted -because its right understanding that knows that they have
wrong understanding - and this is the grounds, the foundation, for
the further development of right understanding."

   The same goes for seeing how much lobha there is, how the citta
processes are absolutely drenched with it, and moha. We have to get
this first, for if we don't we plunge merrily down the path in
deluded practices rooted in attachment.

   Phil

  p.s my apologies, but for the time being I will be posting
unilaterally on occasion, without time to read any posts -
transcriptions from the Phra Dhammadaro and/or Acharn Sujin talks,
for those who are interested.


#60351	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, Ken (and Han) -

In a message dated 6/9/06 11:15:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ashkenn2k@... writes:

> Hi Han
>
> oops, sorry you are right, it should be adosa
>
> fingers too fast
>
> cheer
> Ken O
>
===================
        Hey, wait a minute! According to the Dhamma, the mind is faster than
fingers! LOLOL!
        More seriously, there is something of interest going on here. What I
think is going on may involve two or three or even more categories of mental
process, interleaved, presumably, in time, and a certain one, or certain ones,
of them end up resulting in the typing of one thing even though certain key
mindstates involved the intention of typing something else. What is actually
going on is mind-defyingly complex! One could almost see the basis (in all of us
-
for this is a common phenomenon) for multiple personality disorder.
Interesting, don't you think?

With metta,
Howard

#60352	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, Joop (and Ken & Sarah) -

In a message dated 6/10/06 12:10:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jwromeijn@... writes:

> My second question is about what you said to Howard:
> Ken: "Isn't upadana a very tricky dhamma?"
>
> J: I agree it is tricky, but is it a dhamma, an ultimate reality? Or
> is it a concept?
>
=====================
        I think there is a sub-aggregate of cetasikas (more specifically, of
sankharas) that consists of clingings (i.e., instances of of various kinds and
degrees of upadana), and every one of these is an outgrowth of and, in fact, a
kind of "hardened" version of, tanha (or dosa). I do think that every
instance of clinging is a kind of "impulsive" mental activity that actually
arises
and is distinguishable from other mental actvities. While the *category* of
upadana is concept, each instance of it actually occurs.

With metta,
Howard


#60353	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:50 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Joop

> J: Sarah states that "accumulations" is an ultimate reality; and I
> state that that is not possible, for two reasons:
> - "accumulations" do not arise and fall away within some
> milliseconds  (what is the case with ultimate realities, except
nibbana) - "accumulations" do not occur on the list of 89/121
cittas+52 cetasikas+28 rupas+1 nibbana

k:  accumulations is a function of all cittas.  Before the citta
cease, it conditions the next citta to arise, that how accumulation
cease and arise in each citta


> J:  And my opinion (spoken with care) is: perhaps the difference
> between "ultimate realities" and 'conventional realities" (aka
> concepts) is gradual and not fundamental.

k:  to me it does not matter be it gradual or fundamental, what
matters is that concepts are illusion and thus not conducive to
development.  We used names and concepts to understand paramathas but
it must be understood that paramathas are not concepts.


> My first question is about your quote of 'Dispeller of Delusion'. I
>  don't understand why you quote this, does is prove anything? Or
do> you mean that the term "sense desire clinging" in it makes it
clear> that desire=clinging? Not to me; to me nr 8 of D.O. is not the
same as nr 9. Do you agree with that?

k:  Clinging is a paramatha and not a concept. When I give you the
earlier anology of a thief, it state craving is reaching for an
object while grasping is holding the object.

As according to Expositor pg 55, "grasped" means - seize as effect by
kamma, attended by craving and wrong view in the act of senseing or
thinking of an object.  pg 493, "Grasping is a catching hold
strongly, the prefix in the word (upa)having the meaning of 'strong'
as in 'despair', 'denounced'.  Then on pg 332 Greed has the
characterisitc of grasping the object like sticky lime, the function
of clinging like a piece of flesh thrown into a hot pan; the
manifestation of not letting go like a taint of lampblack; the
proximate cause of viewing the fetter-like states as enjoyment.

Hence in Abhidhamma, both greed and clinging are synoymous.  I dont
have a good explanation.  But why the difference is used in DO, my
guess is that Craving is used as an emphasis, in the sense that it is
a craving is the one that causes the endless rebirth, endless
suffering, in a sense it can be interpret as a 'past' craving.
Clinging is used to illustrate further that this craving that bring
forth the different kamma rebirths, continue the suffering by
clinging to the five aggregates, to me it is two fold, it is used to
illustrate the "present craving" and also the pre-requsite of
conditioning the "future craving" as in birth.   I must said this is
my own reasoning.



Cheers
Ken O

#60354	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:55 pm 
Subject: Dying Moments – 5 	hantun1 

Dying Moments – 5

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

I have quoted the extracts from the Abhidhamma book on
the three following topics:

(1) Kamma-catukkas, four kinds of action: (i)
garuka-kamma, weighty kamma, (ii) aasanna-kamma,
death-proximate kamma, (iii) aacinna-kamma, habitual
kamma, (iv) katattaa-kamma, unspecified kamma.
(Dying Moments - 1, 2)

(2) Maranaasanna Nimittas, kamma-related objects:
(kamma, kamma-nimitta, gati-nimitta).
(Dying Moments - 3)

(3) Maranaasanna Vithis.
(Dying Moments - 4)

------------------------------

I am now trying to establish the inter-relationship
between these three topics.

(a) Maranaasanna nimittas and Maranaasanna vithis.

The relationship between maranaasanna nimittas
(kamma-related objects) and maranaasanna vithis are
clearly described in maranaasanna vithis. When one of
the three maranaasanna nimittas strikes the
corresponding sense-door the maranaasanna vithi starts
to flow and after the dissolution of cuti citta the
person dies.

(b) Kamma-catukkas and Maranaasanna nimittas.

The relationship between the kamma-catukkas (four
kinds of action) and the maranaasanna nimittas
(kamma-related objects) is not clearly described in
the book. But there must definitely be a connection
between these two groups, because these two groups are
responsible for the kind of rebirth in next life.

In maranaasanna vithis, it is said that an akusala or
kusala citta normally functions 5 times as javanas in
these vithis, and that these javanas are known as
‘maranaasanna-javanas.’ But the book does not
specifically mention that these akusala and kusala
cittas which are known as ‘maranaasanna-javanas’ are
indeed the kamma-catukkas (garuka-kamma, or
aasanna-kamma, or aacinna-kamma, or katattaa-kamma).
Therefore, it is not clear where and when these
kamma-catukkas arise.

Nevertheless, I consider that one of the
kamma-catukkas functions as maranaasanna-javanas in
maranaasanna vithis.

“When one of the three maranaasanna nimittas strikes
the corresponding sense-door the maranaasanna vithi
starts to flow and one of the kamma-catukkas functions
as maranaasanna-javanas, and these are followed by
cuti-citta. After the dissolution of cuti citta the
person dies.”

------------------------------

Comments, if any, are welcome.
To be continued.

Respectfully,
Han


#60355	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:36 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 

Hi Ken,

>
>  Yes, dhammas perform functions and they always do so in the space of a
>  single citta (single moment of consciousness). There is no other
>  ultimately real form of action.
>

I consider the matter you raise in the last sentence to be of critical
importance to any understanding of the way things are. So I would like
to tease out the ramifications of what you say here a bit more.

You seem to be denying the physical world, and the possibility that
mental activity has consequences in the physical world. Let alone that
physical action can be non-mental and have consequences  for the mind.

I put it to you that the most critically causal event in your life had
nothing to do with any consciousness of any sort, and that it was the
moment of your conception. And that without that conception, as the
most basic sine-qua-non, none of this would be happening. As an
extension of that, I would say that the act of the most gravest and
enduring  consequence that any being is capable of, is contributing to
sexual reproduction, and that this happens despite or even without any
consciousness whatsoever.


How say you ?


Kind Regards


Herman


#60356	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:16 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 

Hey Scott,

>
>  We just happen to disagree.
>

Yes, we do disagree. But it seems that in disagreeing, I create the
perception that I vilify the abhidhammikas.

Vilify: 1 : to lower in estimation or importance
2 : to utter slanderous and abusive statements against

If I create the impression that my writing is in the vein of
definition number 2, then I must stop, in everyone's best interest. So
I ask that you honestly tell me which vilify you attribute to me.


>  H:  "There is no progression that I read here from a puthujjana
>
>  (worldling) onwards. The worldling is not the start of the sequence.
>  There is not a hint of a suggestion that any of the conceptions and
>  mentations of the worldling are somehow a basis for a subsequent
>  understanding. At best we can infer that the worldling can come to
>  realise that he is in bondage, and unable to think his way out of trouble.
>
>
>  If there is no progression, what is there?  How do you define
>  "progression?"  Perhaps we are understanding the same word differently.
>

I am not denying progression, I just do not see the worldling as being
on the first rung of the ladder. Nor do I see any worldling
understandings as a stepping stone to understanding how things really
are.


>  I would think the the worldling is the "start of the sequence."  How
>  else does anyone progress?

The Dhamma is totally lost on anyone who does not "know", even
vaguely, the reality of dukkha, By that dukkha I do not mean whatever
one might associate with temporary unhappy or painful situations, but
the very fact of existence, however that is construed. It is the
unease, the lack of fulfillment, that can be known in all situations,
even the most happy or blissful ones.

There is no guarantee that everyone is going to wake up to this
reality, and that is why I do not put one who is unaware of this
reality at the starting point of any progressive path. The journey,
then, starts with the inkling that not everything is as it seems, that
there is no lasting fulfillment in anything, and that the pursuit of
fulfillment is like a dog chasing it's tail. Getting to this point is
not learnt or learnable, it is not information that can be transferred
from one person to another. There is not such a thing as a conceptual
understanding of this dukkha. When it is seen, it is not as a result
of the logical hammering out of various propositions, but it comes in
the form of a realisation. And all realisations come from a source
other than the thinking "I".


  What are we now?  How are we even engaging
>  in this study of the Dhamma?  Neither of us were born to it, and even
>  that is no guarantee.  Isn't there a term for what occurs when a
>  worldling "comes to realise he is in bondage?"
>

I can't say anything about whether others realise dukkha or not, and
whether they study Dhamma because of the realisation of dukkha. But it
would be wrong to think that the study of Dhamma leads to the
realisation of dukkha. The realisation of dukkha is the driving force
behind anything to do with path and progress.


>  This sort of realisation is very important.  I don't think that this
>  is something to be inferred, it is something that can happen.  A
>  worldling can go from the state of being a worldling, with all that
>  that implies, to a realisation that things are absolutely and truly
>  not as they had seemed instants before and spontaneously.  This is not
>  a theoretical statement.

Yes, I agree with you. Completely! And until such time of realisation,
any brand of Dhamma is completely lost on any worldling.

>
>
>  "I will happily acknowledge a progression from not conceiving things,
>  in order to understand, to not conceiving things, and understanding."
>
>
>  What do you mean here, exactly?  Sorry, its not clear.  Are you saying
>  that one could progress, by practising non-conceptualisation, from a
>  point of no understanding to one of understanding?

The realisation of dukkha comes about despite the "I", not because of
it. "I", whose mission in life is to be in control and bring about a
happy existence, would never allow into consciousness the very thought
that will lead to its own annihilation. All conceptualisation that is
done by an "I" is only worthy of the garbage bin. All realisation, all
true understanding, all insight, comes from somewhere else than the
"I". So yes, progress can only occur when conceptualisation is held in
abeyance, ignored, bypassed, surpressed, eliminated.


>
>
>  "Do you think it is possible to not conceive things about .....
>  without having developed concentration/samadhi/jhana?"
>
>
>  Yes.
>

Do you think it is possible to arrive at an understanding of the way
things are by hammered out reasoning or other forms of
conceptualisation?


Kind Regards



Herman


#60357	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:51 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 	egberdina 

Hi Han,

>  I am now trying to establish the inter-relationship
>  between these three topics.
>
>
>  Comments, if any, are welcome.
>  To be continued.
>

I have been following your postings with interest. I am a little bit
reluctant to comment because I don't know you besides what I have read
so far, and you have mentioned that previous postings about this
subject did not turn out very happy for you.

I have thoughts about the matters you discuss, but I am not sure that
you want to hear them. I am entirely skeptical of the science of
rebirth, and the thrust of any points I would put forward would be
that the science of rebirth is a tangle of views, and very detrimental
for anyone to pursue an "understanding" of.

In writing this post, I am simply asking if you would welcome such
posts. And I would very much understand it if you would prefer to not
discuss aspects of the validity or the usefulness of the theory. So
please do not feel any obligation to welcome my skeptical views to the
thread, because I do not have a pressing need to express them :-)

Thank you and Kind Regards


Herman

#60358	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:39 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 	hantun1 

Dear Herman,

Thank you very much for your kind consideration in
asking me whether I would welcome your views since you
are entirely skeptical of the science of rebirth.

Yes, I would welcome your views. But I am not a good
debater. I may not be able to communicate back and
forth, but I will always respect others’ opinion
whether it is in line with my own views or not.

Respectfully,
Han


--- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:

> I have been following your postings with interest. I
> am a little bit reluctant to comment because I don't
> know you besides what I have read so far, and you
> have mentioned that previous postings about this
> subject did not turn out very happy for you.
>
> I have thoughts about the matters you discuss, but I
> am not sure that you want to hear them. I am
> entirely skeptical of the science of rebirth, and
> the thrust of any points I would put forward would
be
> that the science of rebirth is a tangle of views,
> and very detrimental for anyone to pursue
> an "understanding" of.
>
> In writing this post, I am simply asking if you
> would welcome such posts. And I would very much
> understand it if you would prefer to not discuss
> aspects of the validity or the usefulness of
> the theory. So please do not feel any obligation to
> welcome my skeptical views to the thread, because I
> do not have a pressing need to express them :-)
>
> Thank you and Kind Regards
> Herman
>

#60359	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:47 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 	egberdina 

Hi Han,

>
>  Thank you very much for your kind consideration in
>  asking me whether I would welcome your views since you
>  are entirely skeptical of the science of rebirth.
>
>  Yes, I would welcome your views. But I am not a good
>  debater. I may not be able to communicate back and
>  forth, but I will always respect others' opinion
>  whether it is in line with my own views or not.
>

Thank you for this post. I will feel more at ease in commenting. And
in commenting it is not my aim to convert you to another view.

But I cannot help but read into considerations of death and rebirth a
desire for future happiness, and an aversion for future unhappiness.
Which would be very natural, as we are  all more or less programmed to
find happiness in the satisfaction of our wants and needs. And future
existence is for many a pressing want.

And this is where I have a problem, or perhaps a misunderstanding. I
do not read the Buddha's Teachings as a way of ensuring future
happiness, or a way to avoid future unhappiness, or even a way to
ensure future existence of any kind. I think there is enough in the
Sutta teachings about kamma to put aside any thought that there are
guarantees, or even assurances, as to the likely quality of our future
moments. What is guaranteed, no matter what our birth, is our death.
And because this would be a fact in any form or realm, there is no
rebirth that is desirable. And because of this irrevocable fact, I
believe the Buddha does not teach kamma for future births, but He
teaches kamma to end kamma and births.

Kind Regards

Herman


#60360	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:53 pm 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 

Hey Again, Herman,

[Briefly:

H:  "Vilify: 1 : to lower in estimation or importance
2 : to utter slanderous and abusive statements against

"If I create the impression that my writing is in the vein of
definition number 2, then I must stop, in everyone's best interest. So
I ask that you honestly tell me which vilify you attribute to me."

The first one, Herman, for the most part.  I'm just making a point.  I
already see where you stand on things abhidhammic; I'd say, just with
me, you can tone that down now a bit.]

On to what is more important:

H:  "I am not denying progression, I just do not see the worldling as
being on the first rung of the ladder. Nor do I see any worldling
understandings as a stepping stone to understanding how things really
are."

Okay.  I see your point.  The conceptualisation (may I use this
instead of understanding?) of the worldling is merely what it is.

I would argue, however, that the worldling has - must have - latently,
a potential for understanding.  Were this not so, no one would
progress at all.  A person can encounter the Dhamma, in some form, and
suddenly "understand" in some way.  Not all, obviously, but some.

And by "understand" I mean be in some measure interested in, attracted
by, drawn to the Dhamma.  Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi:

"The education that the Buddha imparts to us brings about *a deepening
of our perspective on the world*.  To help us transform our
understanding and deepen our perspective on the world, he offers us
three standpoints from which we can appraise the values by which we
order our lives.  These three standpoints also represent three
"moments" or steps in an unfolding process *that starts from our
common-sense attitudes and moves strategically toward higher
knowledge, enlightenment, and release*.  The three moments are
gratification (assaada), danger (aadiinava), and escape (nissarana)."
(In The Buddha's Words, p. 186).

In the above a step-wise process is described, and, in particular, it
seems as if, at least for Venerable Bodhi, "our own common-sense
attitudes" are the soil out which further understanding can come.

Also this, SN 25:1; III 225:

"Monks, the eye is impermanent, changing, undergoing alteration.  The
ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is impermanent,
changing, undergoing alteration.  One who places faith in these
teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one
who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of
superior persons, transcended the plane of worldlings..."

Bhikkhu Bodhi comments that "the fixed course of rightness" is from
the Pali "sammattaniyaama" meaning "the supramundane Noble Eightfold
Path."  My point in the above, although it is discussing the
Stream-Enterer, is that faith in the teachings leads to entry onto a
"fixed course of rightness."  There can likely be greater or lesser
amounts of faith I suppose.

H:  "Getting to this point is not learnt or learnable, it is not
information that can be transferred from one person to another. There
is not such a thing as a conceptual understanding of this dukkha. When
it is seen, it is not as a result of the logical hammering out of
various propositions, but it comes in the form of a realisation. And
all realisations come from a source other than the thinking 'I'."

I agree to a point, Herman.  I do think, however, that conceptual
understanding, say that which can come from a study of the Dhamma, can
be condition for later "realisation."  The intuitive realisation you
posit is perhaps "stronger" or "deeper," but an intellectual
understanding still has, in my opinion, its place.

H:  "...it would be wrong to think that the study of Dhamma leads to
the realisation of dukkha. The realisation of dukkha is the driving
force behind anything to do with path and progress."

An intellectual understanding of dukkha is not "realisation," but one
can have gained such an understanding, even such a one as that there
is dukkha, prior to the realisation of which you speak.  This may not
be a "necessary condition," but if it can condition such a realisation
in only one case, then one can say that it "leads to the realisation
of dukkha."

H:  "Yes, I agree with you. Completely! And until such time of
realisation, any brand of Dhamma is completely lost on any worldling."

See just above.

H:  "...So yes, progress can only occur when conceptualisation is held
in abeyance, ignored, bypassed, surpressed, eliminated."

Not learning though.

H:  "Do you think it is possible to arrive at an understanding of the
way things are by hammered out reasoning or other forms of
conceptualisation?"

Yes.  The ardent pursuit; for the sake of wisdom, mind you.  We'll
need to get to more on the lokiya/lokuttara thing later; I'll suggest
that this is still a latent distinction within your position.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60361	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:23 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Joop


> J: I don't mind but I don't see the problem you have. The
> difference between 7 kilometer and 10 kilometer is gradual; the
difference between 7 kilometer and a pound of sucre is fundamental:
they belong to different classes, to different categories, they are
> uncomparable.And my opinion (spoken with care) is: perhaps the
difference  between "ultimate realities" and 'conventional realities"
(aka  concepts) is gradual and not fundamental.

k: I realise I did not put enough explanation on the difference.
This is how I view it.  It is undeniable that Buddha used concepts as
a tool for tranmission of his teachings, but is also undeniable that
Buddha used concepts to teach us about the paramtha dhamma.  The real
difference that it is only the paramatha dhamma that will make us
develop the path.  My personal reasons are as follows;

Concepts cannot be directly experience.  Because I think, one cannot
directly experience a tree but can experience the hardness of a tree
by touching it or colour of the tree. Likewise, paramathas are
objects that can be directly experience for eg a pleasant feeling.
In a sense, what cannot be directly experience, how can one know this
is suffering.  And the realisation of this suffering is important as
it act as an percusor to our development.

The second reason is the emphasis is to discard the notion of "self".
  Self is a concept and as an object it is a very strong paccaya for
many akusala to arise, due to our taints and propensity to stick to
our concepts of self or clinging to this concept.  Using concept
could result, IMHO, it condition the arising of the taints and
propensity as one oftenly attached concepts with the notion of self
or associated with self.

Thirdly concept is inconsistent and may not be universally understood
by most individuals, for eg an apple can be different in shape, size
and colour.  Using concept could spell inconsistency in the teaching
the dhammas or learning the dhammas.  As a result, IMHO   paramathas
are used as feelings can be felt by everyone and it is the same
flavour, it is just the conditions are different and the intensity is
different.



Cheers
Ken O


#60362	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:46 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 	hantun1 

Dear Herman,

Thank you very much for your comments.
But I would like to wait for Nina’s comments.

Respectfully,
Han


--- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> Hi Han,
> Thank you for this post. I will feel more at ease in
> commenting. And in commenting it is not my aim to
> convert you to another view.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> What is guaranteed, no matter what our birth, is our
> death. And because this would be a fact in any form
> or realm, there is no rebirth that is desirable. And
> because of this irrevocable fact, I believe the
> Buddha does not teach kamma for future births, but
He
> teaches kamma to end kamma and births.
> Kind Regards
> Herman
>


#60363	From: "ken_aitch" <ken_aitch@...> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:42 pm 
Subject: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	ken_aitch 

Hi Herman,

Thanks for your comments. As you will see, I am not sure how they
relate to my statement.

Perhaps I confused the issue by only talking about conscious actions.
At the time, I wasn't thinking of "trees falling in the forest" and
that kind of thing.

---------------
KH: > >   dhammas perform functions and they always do so in the space
of a single citta (single moment of consciousness). There is no other
ultimately real form of action.
> >

H: > I consider the matter you raise in the last sentence to be of
critical importance to any understanding of the way things are. So I
would like to tease out the ramifications of what you say here a bit more.

You seem to be denying the physical world, and the possibility that
mental activity has consequences in the physical world.
----------------

I deny that conventional reality is (ultimately) reality, who doesn't?
But you are talking about "the physical world" so maybe you don't mean
"conventional reality." (?)

---------------------
H: > Let alone that physical action can be non-mental and have
consequences for the mind.
---------------------

Rupas perform functions in much the same way as namas do. But, again,
I am not sure if that is the kind of action you have in mind.

----------------------------
H: > I put it to you that the most critically causal event in your
life had nothing to do with any consciousness of any sort, and that it
was the moment of your conception. And that without that conception,
as the most basic sine-qua-non, none of this would be happening. As an
extension of that, I would say that the act of the most gravest and
enduring consequence that any being is capable of, is contributing to
sexual reproduction, and that this happens despite or even without any
consciousness whatsoever.

How say you?
----------------------------

You seem to be saying that the physical production of a body is the
most important event in the world. I won't argue, except to
remind you that the concept of a body can be explained in terms of
[momentary] rupas performing their [momentary] functions.

Ken H


#60364	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:44 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dying Moments 5 	nilovg 

Dear Han,
thank you for the series.
What you describe is all according to the Abhidhamma.
We shall not know all details, kamma niyama (the law of kamma and result) is
the field of the Buddhas.
As I understood, the last five javana cittas in a life are weak, and with
these five cittas that arise and fall away extremely rapidly, one does not
actually perform deeds through body, speech or mind.
Kamma conditions these last javanacittas and also the object they
experience.
Thus, the kamma that is decisive for the next rebirth is the condition for
these last javanacittas.
These cittas can have as object that decisive kamma one remembers.
Nina.
op 10-06-2006 22:55 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

Nevertheless, I consider that one of the
kamma-catukkas functions as maranaasanna-javanas in
maranaasanna vithis.

“When one of the three maranaasanna nimittas strikes
the corresponding sense-door the maranaasanna vithi
starts to flow and one of the kamma-catukkas functions
as maranaasanna-javanas, and these are followed by
cuti-citta. After the dissolution of cuti citta the
person dies.



#60365	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:44 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	nilovg 

Hi Howard,
Lodewijk read it as well and he said that he found your summary very well
balanced and excellently written. You got to the essence of the matter,
Lodewijk said.
I shall keep it for further reference.
Nina.
op 09-06-2006 22:50 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:

In a message dated 6/9/06 2:29:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... <mailto:vangorko%40xs4all.nl>  writes:

> Hi Howard and Matheesha,
> this is an excellent summary of essential points and well formulated,
> I really appreciate this. I hope Matheesha will tell us about the questions.


#60366	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:54 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments 5 	nilovg 

Dear Han and Herman,
It is true that the Buddha teaches the end of rebirth.
On the other hand, there are many sutta texts that tell us that kusala kamma
brings a happy rebirth. We are still worldlings and in these texts the
Buddha wanted to encourage us to kusala kamma.
It often happens that we cling to kusala, but through satipa.t.thaana this
can be realized as it is.
If we think too much of our rebirth, clinging or fear are bound to arise. It
destracts from understanding this very moment, which may be thinking,
thinking that is akusala.
Nina.
op 11-06-2006 06:46 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

Dear Herman,

Thank you very much for your comments.
But I would like to wait for Nina’s comments.


#60367	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:30 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dying Moments 5 	hantun1 

Dear Nina,

Thank you very much for your kind comments.
Since I have started it I have to finish it.
So please read on my two more posts.

Respectfully,
Han


--- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

> Dear Han,

> We shall not know all details, kamma niyama (the law
> of kamma and result) is the field of the Buddhas.

> As I understood, the last five javana cittas in a
> life are weak, and with these five cittas that arise
> and fall away extremely rapidly, one does not
> actually perform deeds through body, speech or mind.
> Kamma conditions these last javanacittas and also
> the object they experience.
> Thus, the kamma that is decisive for the next
> rebirth is the condition for these last
javanacittas.
> These cittas can have as object that decisive kamma
> one remembers.
> Nina.


#60368	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:37 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 	hantun1 

Dear Herman (and Nina)

Nina’s comments are excellent.
I would not be able to think of a better reply.

Respectfully,
Han

--- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> Hi Han,
> Thank you for this post. I will feel more at ease in
> commenting. And in commenting it is not my aim to
> convert you to another view.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> What is guaranteed, no matter what our birth, is our
> death. And because this would be a fact in any form
> or realm, there is no rebirth that is desirable. And
> because of this irrevocable fact, I believe the
> Buddha does not teach kamma for future births, but
He
> teaches kamma to end kamma and births.
> Kind Regards
> Herman


#60369	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:46 am 
Subject: Dying Moments - 6 	hantun1 

Dying Moments – 6

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

Preparations for death.

After studying the kamma-catukkas, maranaasanna
nimittas, and maranaasanna vithis, I have formulated
the plan of action for my death. [These are
preparations for myself only, and not intended to
serve as a prescription for other persons.]

Plan A: long-term plan of action to be executed
throughout my life.
Plan B: short-term plan of action to be executed just
before my death.

Of the two, although Plan B would be needed just
before my death, I will describe it first.

----------------------------

Plan B

I will try to get a good aasanna kamma
(death-proximate kamma) when I am about to die, with
the help of my family members and relatives and
friends.

Just before death, I expect that my faculties will
start to deteriorate one by one and finally they all
will be gone. My movements may go first. I may not be
able to sit up or move my limbs. Then I may not be
able to speak or my speech may be hardly audible. My
eye-sight may gradually fail and I may not be able to
open my eyes. But my hearing faculty and thought
process may be the last to go.

Assuming that my hearing faculty and thought process
may go last, I may be able to hear although I may
appear immovable and lifeless on the death-bed.
Therefore, I have asked my family members not to weep
or cry near me thinking that I am already dead. I may
still be able to hear them.

I have requested my family members to play religious
tapes near me when I am about to die, or if possible
to request some monks to chant some parittas near me.
I have also requested them to remind me of my past
wholesome deeds. I have asked them to do these things
until I am pronounced dead by medical staff.

All these proceedings will be an attempt to have a
good aasanna kamma and a good gati-nimitta to appear
during my last maranaasanna vithi. I am sure that I
will not achieve final liberation in this life. My
aim, therefore, is to have a favorable rebirth so that
I can continue working for the final liberation in my
next existence(s). This attempt to have a good aasanna
kamma and a good gati-nimitta may work or it may not
work. But my idea is “try costs nothing”. I will have
nothing to loose.

------------------------------

Comments, if any, are welcome.
Plan A to be continued.

Respectfully,
Han

#60370	From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" <bhikkhu.samahita@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:43 am 
Subject: How to become a real Buddhist on Poson Poya Day! 	bhikkhu_ekamuni 

Friends:
   How to be a Real True Buddhist through Observance?

   Poya is the full-moon of Poson (June), which is specially noteworthy to the
Sri Lankan
   Buddhists as the day on which Emperor Asoka's son, the arahat Mahinda,
officially
   introduced Buddhism to the island in the 3rd century B.C. Accordingly, in
addition to
   the normal ritualistic observances undertaken on a poya day, on Poson day
devotees
   flock to Anuradhapura, the ancient holy capital city of the country, for it
was there
   that arahat Mahinda converted the then ruler, King Devanampiya Tissa, and his
court
   to Buddhism, thereby setting in motion a series of events that finally made
Sri Lanka
   the home of Theravada Buddhism.

   On such Uposatha Observance days:
   Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes
   the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed,
   with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue,
   and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and
   head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart,
   one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice:

         As long as this life lasts:
         I hereby take refuge in the Buddha.
         I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma.
         I hereby take refuge in the Sangha.

         I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time.
         I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time.
         I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time.



         I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time.
         I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time.
         I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time.
         I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life!



   I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules:
   I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing.
   I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing.
   I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse.
   I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty.
   I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs.
   As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts...

   Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own
   eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better
   than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world!
   This is the very start on the path towards Nibbana -the Deathless Element-
   This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Bliss, initiated by Morality,
   developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation...

   Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist
   normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn...
   If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply
   forward the lines starting with "I..." signed with name, date, town & country
   to me or join here. A public list of this new Saddhamma-Sangha is here!

     The New Noble Community of Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha:
     http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm

                                         Join Here:
     http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm

   May your journey hereby be eased, light, swift and sweet. Never give up !!!

                  Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@...

              For Details on Uposatha Observance Days
     http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html



  Friendship is the Greatest ...
  Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
  <...>

#60371	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:26 am 
Subject: Dying Moments - 7 	hantun1 

Dying Moments – 7

Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

Nina wrote: “We shall not know all details, kamma
niyama (the law of kamma and result) is the field of
the Buddhas.”

Very true. Even the sutta MN 136 Maha-kammavibhanga
Sutta: The Great Exposition of Kamma, translated from
the Pali by Nanamoli Thera, which may be clear to
other people, I find it difficult to understand
completely.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.136.nymo.html


Anyway, please let me continue.

Preparations for death.
Plan A

Plan B alone, which I have described in my last post,
may not be good enough if it is executed only at a
time when I am bout to die without any supportive
activities that are carried out previously throughout
my life.

The unreliability of Plan B alone is evidenced by a
passage from an article titled Buddhist Reflections on
Death, by V.F.Gunaratna.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratna/wheel102.html


Quote [Let us now examine the unduly dreaded dying
moment which marks the end of man's present existence.
The physical condition of any dying man is so weak
that the volitional control by the mind at the dying
moment lacks the power to choose its own thoughts.
This being so, the memory of some powerfully
impressive and important event of the dying man's
present existence (or his past existence) will force
itself upon the threshold of his mind, the forcible
entry of which thought he is powerless to resist.]

Therefore, I would not entirely depend on Plan B to be
executed just before my death. What I will do then is
to accumulate wholesome kamma all throughout my life.
This is to accumulate my wholesome aacinna kamma or
the habitual kamma. This constitutes my Plan A which I
am currently executing. Thus my plans of action call
for two-pronged action, Plan A now to be supplemented
by Plan B later.

The importance of aacinna kamma or habitual kamma has
already been mentioned in my previous quotes:

“To be sure to get a good aasanna-kamma, however, we
should develop an aacinna-kamma while we are alive.
The best aacinna-kamma is tranquility or insight
meditation which can be performed all the time. When
it becomes habitual, it will be remembered and
practiced near the time of death.”

“Simile of a cattle-shed:
Sometimes a vigilant one, which has regularly noticed
the time when the shed is opened, may walk to the door
just before it is opened and come out first when the
door is opened. This is like the aacinna-kamma
producing its result in the next life.”

I also like a simile written by a Burmese scholar. He
wrote that we must practice wholesome deeds for good
aacinna kamma like an often-folded-paper. If you have
a piece of paper which you value most and which you
unfold it to read and fold it back for safe-keeping
thousands of times, what will happen is if you fold it
back it will go back to its folded position very
easily. So also if you perform meritorious deeds
regularly all throughout your life, it will become
habitual and it will come back to you at the slightest
recollection. I would even go to the extent to say
that if I am lying helpless on the death bed with my
faculties so weak that I will be powerless to resist
the forcible entry of some unwholesome thought upon
the threshold of my mind, the aacinna kamma that I
have accrued might come to my rescue and prevent the
evil thoughts to enter. Or, alternatively, this good
aacinna kamma might even function as aasanna kamma at
the last moment.

Again, there is no guarantee that my Plan A would work
as I expected at the crucial moment. Again, my motto
will be “try costs nothing” I will have nothing to
loose. In fact, I will benefit by doing meritorious
deeds all throughout my life. Leaving aside aacinna
kamma and aasanna kamma, by doing meritorious deeds I
will have a strong faith (saddha) and joy (piti) and
happiness (sukha); and I will be liked by humans and
devas.

--------------------------

Note: I had posted a gist (not in detail as I am
writing now) of these ideas on two previous occasions
in other forums. What I wanted to hear was words of
encouragement saying that my plans of action are good
and I should carry on. But what I heard was only
skepticism or lukewarm response at best. Therefore, I
had decided not to discuss these issues with anybody
in the future. I am now writing this only because Nina
urged me to do so.

Although I was not encouraged, I am still stubbornly
sticking to my plans of action. That was why I wrote
to Nina that I can be, at times, very stubborn in my
own foolish way.

[THE END]

Respectfully,
Han


#60372	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:20 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments – 5 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Herman, Han and Nina

<< I do not read the Buddha's Teachings as a way of ensuring future
> happiness, or a way to avoid future unhappiness, or even a way to
> ensure future existence of any kind. I think there is enough in the
> Sutta teachings about kamma to put aside any thought that there are
> guarantees, or even assurances, as to the likely quality of our
> future  moments. What is guaranteed, no matter what our birth, is
our death. And because this would be a fact in any form or realm,
there is no rebirth that is desirable. And because of this
irrevocable fact, I believe the Buddha does not teach kamma for
future births, but He teaches kamma to end kamma and births.>>


k:  I personally think Herman's above paragraph is very well and
beautifully written.   An end of kamma means an end to all suffering.
  So Buddha did teach kamma not for teaching about getting good fruits
etc, is to teach the end of kamma, the eradication of  taints that
conditions kamma.  This remind us why we learn kamma.  To me they are
just different prespective. What Han wrote  is the technicallity of
kamma, for those who wish to understand that kamma is anatta and why
sometimes rebirth in next life is unpredictable, beyond's ones
ablility to control them.

At this point, I like to say to Han is that even if you have Plan B,
it will not meant the next life will be kusala rebirth because it is
anatta.  It is good to have this plan because it helps as all kusala
rebirth is always good and who knows, we may end in up learning
dhamma again as the Buddha teachings are still around for the moment
:-)


Cheers
Ken O


#60373	From: Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:24 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 468- Non-Attachment/Alobha (p) 	ashkenn2k 

Hi Howard

> ===================
>        Hey, wait a minute! According to the Dhamma, the mind is
> faster than  fingers! LOLOL!

k: Yes you are right :-)

>        More seriously, there is something of interest going on
> here. What I  think is going on may involve two or three or even
more categories of mental  process, interleaved, presumably, in time,
and a certain one, or certain ones,  of them end up resulting in the
typing of one thing even though certain key  mindstates involved the
intention of typing something else. What is actually
> going on is mind-defyingly complex! One could almost see the basis
> (in all of us -  for this is a common phenomenon) for multiple
personality disorder.  Interesting, don't you think?

k:  Yes I always love mental processes because they are the Grand
Wizards of magic :-) even better than Merlin or Harry Potter



Cheers
Ken O

#60374	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:31 am 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 

Dear All,

"I've read the terms 'mundane' and 'supramundane' many times, in
reference to various things; I think the Pali renders it 'lokiya' and
'lokuttara.'"

It seems that "path (magga)" and "fruition (phala)" are also related
to the above.  AN 8:59; IV 292:

"Monks, these eight persons are worthy of gifts...What eight?

"The stream-enterer, the one practising for the realisation of the
fruit of stream-entry; the once-returner, the one practising for the
realisation of the fruit of once-returning; the non-returner, the one
practising for the realisation of the fruit of non-returning; the
arahant, the one practising for arahantship..."

In his commentary, Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:

"The terminology of "path" and "fruition" is a commentarial way of
drawing the distinction.  The suttas themselves do not use the scheme
of four "paths" but speak only of one path, the Noble Eightfold Path
that leads to the cessation of suffering.  This is also called
'arahattamagga,' the path to arahantship, but in a broad sense, as the
path preceding the fruit of arahantship.  However, the suttas do make
a distinction between the person practising for the attainment of a
particular fruit (phalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanna) and the person who
has attained the stage that results from this practise...Based on this
distinction, the commentarial terminology of path and fruit is useful
as a concise way of referring to the to phases of the Nikaaya scheme,"
  (In the Buddha's Words, p.385 ;p.452).

Is it correct to relate path and fruit to this discussion?  If so, how
might this be done?

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60375	From: upasaka@... 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:32 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	upasaka_howard 

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 6/11/06 4:44:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
vangorko@... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> Lodewijk read it as well and he said that he found your summary very well
> balanced and excellently written. You got to the essence of the matter,
> Lodewijk said.
> I shall keep it for further reference.
> Nina.
>
======================
        How nice! Thank you, Nina, and please thank Lodewijk for me! :-)

With metta,
Howard

#60376	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:26 am 
Subject: The Roots of Good and Evil, no 8. 	nilovg 

Dear Friends,

This is taken from The Roots of Good and Evil, by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel
251/253:

<------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Mara's Prisoner

He who has not abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, is called Mara's
prisoner, captured in Mara's snare, subject to the Evil One's will and
pleasure.

But he who abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, is no longer Mara's
prisoner; he is freed from Mara's snare, no longer subject to the Evil One's
will and pleasure.
 
~ ITIVUTTAKA 68


------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Crossing The Ocean

A monk or a nun has not abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, such one has
not crossed the ocean (of samsara),with its waves and whirlpools, monster
and demons.

But a monk or a nun who has abandoned greed, hatred and delusion, such a one
has crossed the ocean (of samsara), with its waves and whirlpools, monsters
and demons, has traversed it and gone to the other shore (Nibbana), standing
on firm ground as a true saint.
 
~ ITIVUTTAKA 69>

******
Nina.


#60377	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:48 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dying Moments - 6 	nilovg 

Dear Han,
I was really touched by your personal post on death, plan 2, you are so
sincere.
Only, we do not know where and under which circumstances we will die, it may
be an accident, who knows? There may be nobody around to help us. We have to
die alone, we have to learn to be our own refuge.
Kh Sujin said: we are born alone, there is just the rebirth-consciousness we
do not share, we see alone, we dye alone. This is actually true when we
consider citta: one citta at a time.

As a medical doctor, you kow that people speak about brain death, but this
is not death. There may still be citta dependent on the heartbase. That is
why I do not want to donate organs or let Lodewijk do so, they start already
at brain death to take them out, and will not let relatives near you,
because of hygiene. As you said, relatives can be of great help. Doctors
want to finish the medical job first, taking out the organs.
Another point for Herman (and for Rob K!) : the scientists cannot find out
when the cuti-citta arises and passes away. With all their knowledge, they
do not know about citta.
Here are some points, but like you I am not a debater, Herman knows this.
Nina.
op 11-06-2006 11:46 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

I will try to get a good aasanna kamma
(death-proximate kamma) when I am about to die, with
the help of my family members and relatives and
friends.

#60378	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:37 am 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 470- Non-Aversion/Adosa (b) 	sarahprocter... 

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa)contd
*****
Adosa can be translated as non-aversion or non-hate, but there
are many forms and degrees of it. Loving kindness, mettå, is a
form of adosa which is directed towards living beings.

Adosa can also be non-aversion with regard to an object which is not a
being and then it can be described as patience. There can be non-aversion
or patience with regard to heat, cold, bodily pain or other unpleasant
objects.

The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 127) defines
non-aversion, adosa, as follows:
*
"…Absence of hate has the characteristic of freedom from churlishness
or resentment, like an agreeable friend; the function of destroying
vexation, or dispelling distress, like sandalwood; the manifestation of
being pleasing, like the full moon…"
*
The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 143) gives a similar definition(1).
***
1) See also Dhammasangaùi §33.
*****
Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60379	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:26 am 
Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. 	nilovg 

Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81. object decisive-support-condition,
(aaramma.nuupanissaya-paccaya).

Intro:

We see in the "Paììhåna'' (Faultless Triplet,VII, Investigation Chapter,
Strong Dependence, §423), that the objects which are the conditioning
factors in the case of decisive-support-condition are the same as in the
case of object predominance-condition, årammaùådhipati paccaya, thus, they
have to be desirable objects.
The cittas which are conditioned by way of decisive support of object are
also the same types as in the case of object predominance-condition. Thus,
the realities involved in these two kinds of conditions are the same, but
there is a difference in the conditioning force of object
predominance-condition and of decisive support-condition of object.
In the case of object predominance-condition the desirable object is highly
esteemed by the citta and cetasikas concerned so that they give
preponderance to it.
In the case of decisive support-condition of object, the desirable object is
a powerful inducement, a cogent reason, for the arising of the citta and
cetasikas concerned, which are strongly dependent on that object.
Desirable objects which are object predominance-condition can also, at the
same time, be decisive support-condition of object, a powerful inducement
for the arising of the cittas concerned. Phenomena can be conditioned by
several types of conditions at the same time.
Certain objects cannot be object predominance-condition nor decisive
support-condition of object, because they are undesirable, such as
body-consciousness which is akusala vipåka, accompanied by painful feeling,
the two types of dosa-múla-citta and the akusala cetasikas that may
accompany them, and the two types of moha-múla-citta.

Kusala such as dåna or síla which one performed can be object predominance-
condition for kusala citta which esteems and gives preponderance to the
wholesome deed one performed. The wholesome deed can at the same time also
be decisive support-condition of object.
Kusala which one performed can condition attachment or wrong view, as we
have seen, by way of object predominance-condition, and it can also
condition them by way of decisive support-condition of object.
Attachment can be object predominance-condition and also decisive support-
condition of object, a powerful inducement for the arising of attachment
again and again in the case of all those who have not eradicated attachment.
Akusala cannot be object predominance-condition nor decisive
support-condition of object for kusala citta, since kusala citta cannot
consider akusala with esteem and high regard.
Desirable rúpas which are object predominance-condition can also be decisive
support-condition of object for lobha-múla-citta but, just as in the case
of object predominance-condition, they cannot be decisive support-condition
of object for kusala citta.
----------
Text Vis. 81: (a) Herein, firstly, 'object-decisive-support condition' is
set forth without differentiating it from object-predominance in the way
beginning: 'Having given a gift,...
------
N: The Tiika explains that it is cetanaa, volition or intention, which is
daana.
Daana can be object-decisive-support condition for the cittas that
experience it.
The Tiika adds to the words Œhaving given¹ : having purified the intention.
Daana that has been performed with pure intention can be
object-decisive-support condition for the citta that considers and
recollects it.
--------
Text Vis.: having undertaken the precepts of virtue, having done the duties
of the Uposatha, a man gives that importance and reviews it; he gives
importance to former things well done and reviews them.
-------
N: The Tiika mentions siila as the observing of five or ten precepts, in the
case of someone who observes them continuously.
There is also siila by way of eradication, and this can only be the object
of kusala citta for Œlearners¹ (sekkha, ariyans who are not arahats), not
for others.
As to the duties of the Uposatha, the Tiika refers to the precepts of
abstaining from killing, stealing, etc.
Learners and also worldlings may consider siila as object and give
importance to it. The arahat may also review the kusala he formerly
performed and give importance to it, but this is done with kiriyacitta. The
arahat does not have kusala citta.
--------
Text Vis.: Having emerged from jhaana, he gives importance to jhaana and
reviews it. Trainers give importance to change-of-lineage and review it.
They give importance to cleansing and review it.[15]
-------------
Note 15, taken from the Tiika: 'Reviewing change-of-lineage' (the
consciousness that precedes the path consciousness) applies to
stream-enterers. 'Reviewing cleansing' (the 'cleansing', vodaana, that
consists in attaining a higher path than the first) applies to
once-returners and non-returners.

N: The Tiika adds that they with insight realize kusala as impermanent,
anicca, dukkha and non-self, anattaa.
--------
Text Vis.: Trainers, having emerged from the path, give importance to the
path and review it' (P.tn.1,165). Herein, the object in giving importance to
which consciousness and consciousness concomitants arise, is necessarily
a cogent one among these objects. So their difference may be understood
in this way: 'object-predominance' is in the sense of what is to be given
importance to, and 'object-decisive-support is in the sense of a cogent
reason.
-------------------------------
N: The Tiika explains that although there is no difference in the
classification of the dhammas involved in Œobject-predominance' and
'object-decisive-support¹, there is a difference in force, shown by the
words of the text, Œobject-predominance is in the sense of what is to be
given importance to, and 'object-decisive-support is in the sense of a
cogent reason.¹
  ---------
Conclusion: When one has performed daana, one may recollect one¹s kusala and
this can be a powerful inducement, a cogent reason, for the arising again
and again of kusala citta which sees the benefit of kusala. This is also
true for siila, samatha and vipassanaa. One will have more confidence in
performing kusala again.

As is stated in the ŒPa.t.thana², kusala may also be a cogent reason for
clinging and wrong view. We may take kusala for self.
If we develop insight kusala can be realized as a conditioned dhamma that is
non-self.

Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be objects of
clinging.
We read in the "Paììhåna'' (Faultless Triplet,VII,Investigation Chapter,
Strong Dependence, §423), that nibbåna is related to the eight lokuttara
cittas which experience it and also to mahå-kusala citta accompanied by
paññå and mahå-kiriyacitta (of the arahat) accompanied by paññå, by way of
decisive support-condition of object.
The learners who review nibbaana are inspired to continue developing the
eightfold Path until arahatship is attained. Nibbaana is a cogent reason for
the cittas that review it.

******
Nina.


#60380	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:36 am 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 

Dear All,

In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha by Narada (Buddha Dharma Education Assn,
"buddhnet.net" version):

"Consciousness, mental states (with the exception of 8 types of
supramundane consciousness and their adjuncts), and matter are Mundane
(Lokiya), and Nibbaana is Supramundane (Lokuttara), The Supramundane
Nibbaana is the only absolute reality, which is the summum bonum of
Buddhism.  The other three are called realities in that they are
things that exist (vijjamaana dhammaa). Besides, they are irreducible,
immutable, and abstract things.  They deal with what is within us and
around us," (pp.23-24).

Further:

"Loka + Uttara = Lokuttara.  Here 'Loka' means the five aggregates.
'Uttara' means above, beyond, or that which transcends.  It is the
supramundane consciousness that enables one to transcend this world of
mind-body.

"The first three classes of consciousness are called lokiya
(mundane)," (ibid.,p. 26).

"Loka," from the PTS PED, is defined:

"Vedic loka in its oldest meaning 'space, open space'...loka is
closely related in quality to rupati (as in popular etymology of
rupaa)and rujati...[and means] world, primarily 'visible world' then
in general as 'space' or 'sphere of creation' with var[ious] degrees
of substantiality.  Often (unspecified) in the comprehensive sense of
'universe.'  Sometimes the term is applied collectively to the
creatures inhabiting this or var[ious] other worlds, thus, 'man,
mankind, people, beings.'

"Loka is not a fixed and def[inite] term.  It comprises immateriality
as well a materiality and emphasises one or the other meaning
according to the view applied to the object or category in question.
Thus a translation of 'sphere, plane, division, order' interchanges
with 'world.'  Whenever the spatial element prevails we speak of it's
'regional' meaning as contrasted with 'applied' meaning.  The
fundamental notion however is that of 'substantiality' to which is
closely related the specific Buddhist notion of impermanence
(loka=lujjati)...[Loka,][r]eferring to this world, [has] the character
of evanescense...inhererent in it; referring to the universe in a
wider sense it implies infinity, thought not in definite terms."

I'll leave it to those more inclined to perhaps comment on the Pali
and the many shades of meaning alluded to above.

I find that the "mundane" or "lokiya" comprises a lot.  That loka
"means the five aggregates," as noted in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha,
and has inherent in the definition the notions of insubstantiality and
impermanence, as noted above, demonstrates to me that much more is
packed into a word than intially meets the eye.

It is clear to me in this that, when contrasted with that which is
above, Nibbaana, the  "mundane/supramundane" distinction holds.

What do you think?

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60381	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:55 am 
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. 	scottduncan2 

Dear Nina,

In considering the following exerpt of your post:

N:  "Text Vis.: Having emerged from jhaana, he gives importance to
jhaana and reviews it. Trainers give importance to change-of-lineage
and review it. They give importance to cleansing and review it.[15]

"Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be
objects of clinging.

"We read in the "Pa��h�na'' (Faultless Triplet,VII,Investigation
Chapter, Strong Dependence, �423), that nibb�na is related to the
eight lokuttara cittas which experience it and also to mah�-kusala
citta accompanied by pa��� and mah�-kiriyacitta (of the arahat)
accompanied by pa���, by way of decisive support-condition of object.
The learners who review nibbaana are inspired to continue developing
the eightfold Path until arahatship is attained. Nibbaana is a cogent
reason for the cittas that review it."

Can you say why Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it
cannot be objects of clinging?  Is it because they are so swift as to
be imperceptible?  And, being imperceptible to mundane consciousness,
are therefore not subject to clinging?  I understand that jhaana can
only be reviewed after having emerged from it, since while absorbed,
one is incapable of the consciousness necessary to carry out the
review.  Is this correct?

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60382	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:39 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. 	nilovg 

Dear Scott,
op 11-06-2006 19:55 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...:
N:  "Text Vis.: Having emerged from jhaana, he gives importance to
jhaana and reviews it. Trainers give importance to change-of-lineage
and review it. They give importance to cleansing and review it.[15]

"Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be
objects of clinging.

.....The learners who review nibbaana are inspired to continue developing
the eightfold Path until arahatship is attained. Nibbaana is a cogent
reason for the cittas that review it."

Scott: Can you say why Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it
cannot be objects of clinging? Is it because they are so swift as to
be imperceptible?  And, being imperceptible to mundane consciousness,
are therefore not subject to clinging?
------
N: the lokuttara magga-cittas eradicate defilements and experience nibbaana.
The cause of dukkha is tanhaa, craving or clinging. Nibbaana is the
cessation of dukkha. It is contradictory if the lokuttara cittas would cling
to nibbaana which is the end of all defilements.
A person who does not know what nibbaana is may cling to an illusion, an
idea he has of nibbaana.
-------

S:  I understand that jhaana can only be reviewed after having emerged from
it, since while absorbed, one is incapable of the consciousness necessary to
carry out the
review.  Is this correct?
--------
N: The texts states; after having emerged from jhaana...
The jhaanacittas are absorbed in the meditation subject, they have no other
experience.
When someone has emerged from jhaana he can consider the jhaanafactors and
which one he has to abandon in order to reach a higher stage, for example.
Or, when he develops insight he can realize the jhaanafactors as non-self.
He may understand that a concurrence of many condioning factors was
necessary for the arising of jhaanacitta.
Nina.


#60383	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:07 pm 
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. 	scottduncan2 

Dear Nina,

Did I misread this (or worse, hallucinate this) in your original post?

N:  "Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be
objects of clinging."

Anyway, this was what I was on about.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60384	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:09 pm 
Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. 	scottduncan2 

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Nina,
>
> Did I misread this (or worse, hallucinate this) in your original post?
>
> N:  "Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be
> objects of clinging."
>
> Anyway, this was what I was on about.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Scott.
>
Sorry, cancel that, I'm mixed up (again).


#60385	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:29 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 

>
> Hey Again, Herman,
>
>
>  The first one, Herman, for the most part.  I'm just making a point.  I
>  already see where you stand on things abhidhammic; I'd say, just with
>  me, you can tone that down now a bit.]
>

OK, understood. And honestly, I understand your position re the
Abhidhamma as well, so soon we won't need to discuss at all :-) So I
won't even need to become less vigorous.


>
>  Okay.  I see your point.  The conceptualisation (may I use this
>  instead of understanding?) of the worldling is merely what it is.
>
>  I would argue, however, that the worldling has - must have - latently,
>  a potential for understanding.  Were this not so, no one would
>  progress at all.  A person can encounter the Dhamma, in some form, and
>  suddenly "understand" in some way.  Not all, obviously, but some.
>

Yes, and this is a point about which I have no idea at all. I do not
know how the ignorant can recognise wisdom. So I still wrestle with
the notion of ignorance as the default state, as the root of all
beginnings.

>  Yes.  The ardent pursuit; for the sake of wisdom, mind you.  We'll
>  need to get to more on the lokiya/lokuttara thing later; I'll suggest
>  that this is still a latent distinction within your position.
>



One more point, and that will just about wrap it up from my
perspective. Lokuttara is used twice or three times in the Suttas. It
is used to distinguish between the worldling and one on the path. I
have no reservation about that distinction at all. As you acknowledge
in another post, there is a Noble Eightfold Path, and as I say,
worldlings just aren't on it. This is a quote from the Kosambiya Sutta
MN 48. It sets out 7 things that are lokuttara, ie not of this world,
and not shared by worldlings. It concludes with : When the noble
disciple is endowed with these seven characteristics, he is ready to
realise the fruits of the entry into the stream of the Teaching.

"The bhikkhu knows, I haven't undispelled hindrances on account of
which my mind would not see it, as it really is. These things are
thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the
truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world
and not shared by the ordinary.

Again, the noble disciple reflects When I practise and develop this
view much, I experience internal appeasement, and internal extinction.
[2] This is the second noble knowledge attained, not of the world and
not shared by the ordinary.

Again the noble disciple reflects. This view I have gained is it also
the view of the recluses and brahmins of other sects. Then he knows,
this view with which I am endowed, is not shared by recluses and
brahmins of other sects. This is the third noble knowledge attained,
not of the world and not shared by the ordinary.

Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with
those come to righteousness of view. I'm also endowed with that unique
characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one
come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes
manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise
co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and
makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand
and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly
pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it
becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a
wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for
future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to
righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained,
not of the world and not shared by the ordinary.

Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view, with
those come to righteousness of view. I'm also endowed with that unique
characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one
come to righteousness of view? It is the unique characteristic of one
come to righteousness view, to be greatly intent in completing any
work high or low that has to be done for the co-associates in the holy
life. Mindful of the high virtues, training, and high wisdom. Like the
cow which would even pull out the post to which it is tied in an
effort to save her calf. In the same manner would be greatly intent in
completing any work high or low that has to be done for the
co-associates in the holy life. Mindful of the high virtues, much
training and high wisdom. Then he knows, I share this view, with those
come to righteousness of view. I'm endowed with that unigue
characteristic. This is the fifth noble knowledge attained, not of the
world and not shared by the ordinary.

Again, the noble disciple reflects I share this power, with those come
to righteousness of view. I'm endowed with that power. What is that
power with which the one come to righteousness of view is endowed?.
One come to righteousness of view listens to the Teaching attending
carefully to take the essential with the mind well concentrated. Then
he knows, I'm endowed with the power of one come to righteousness of
view. This is the sixth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and
not shared by the ordinary.

Again, the noble disciple reflects. I share this power, with those
come to righteousness of view. I'm endowed, with that power What is
that power with which the one come to righteousness of view is
endowed?. It is the power of one come to righteousness of view to
listen to the Teaching taught by the Blessed One and gain the
meanings, experience the Teaching and experience the joy. Then he
knows, with whatever power the one, come to righteousness of view is
endowed, I too share that power. . This is the seventh noble knowledge
attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary.

When the noble disciple is endowed with these seven characteristics,
he is ready to realise the fruits of the entry into the stream of the
Teaching."


Kind Regards



Herman


#60386	From: "Herman Hofman" <hhofmeister@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:32 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	egberdina 

Hi Scott,

For some reason, my Gmail editor snips of the greeting at the top when
I get rid of all the crap that the Yahoo editor includes with it's
post, so I'm sorry it wasn't included in the last post. That goes for
anyone else who hasn't been greeted :-)

Kind Regards


Herman

#60387	From: han tun <hantun1@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:13 pm 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dying Moments - 6 	hantun1 

Dear Nina,

I really appreciate your kind comments.

Nina: “Only, we do not know where and under which
circumstances we will die, it may be an accident, who
knows?”

Han: That’s why we should be contemplating on death as
often as possible.
AN VI.19 Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (1),
translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-019.html


In the above sutta the Buddha said only these two
types of bhikkhus are said to be dwelling heedfully:
Quote [“But whoever develops mindfulness of death,
thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that
it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of
food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out
after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing
out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's
instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal'
— they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop
mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending
the effluents.”] End quote.

--------------------------

Nina: “There may be nobody around to help us. We have
to die alone, we have to learn to be our own refuge.”

Han: That is exactly the right attitude one has to
take. But I am still weak in that area because I still
want company, although I know that noble persons
cherish solitude (paviveka) and do not want company
(sanganikaa). When I die I would prefer to die at home
rather than in Intensive Care Unit away from visitors,
even if that means I die sooner at home. I have still
a long way to go to achieve liberation!

------------------------------

Nina: This is actually true when we consider citta:
one citta at a time.

Han: Come to think of it, from this life to next life,
it is only one citta away – from cuti citta to
patisandhi citta.

In his essay, Buddhist Reflections on Death, V.F.
Gunaratna wrote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratna/wheel102.html


Quote [In the Visuddhi Magga it is said that in the
ultimate sense, the life span of living beings is
extremely short, being only as much as the duration of
a single conscious moment. "Just as a chariot wheel"
continues the Visuddhi Magga "when it is rolling,
touches the ground at one point only of the
circumference of its tire, so too the life of living
beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When
that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to
have ceased." Thus we see that every moment of our
lives we are dying and being reborn.] End quote.

------------------------------

Nina: Another point for Herman (and for Rob K!): the
scientists cannot find out when the cuti-citta arises
and passes away. With all their knowledge, they do not
know about citta.

Han: This is also a good message for me.
------------------------------

Respectfully,
Han


#60388	From: "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:54 pm 
Subject: Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	scottduncan2 

Dear Herman,

Good call:  the Kosambiyasutta.m!  I very much enjoyed it.  Especially
the whole first part dealing with the disputing monks.

H:  "Yes, and this is a point about which I have no idea at all. I do
not know how the ignorant can recognise wisdom. So I still wrestle
with the notion of ignorance as the default state, as the root of all
beginnings."

Is it possible that ignorance exists relative to other "qualities" and
in a mix at any given moment?  And that an alteration can occur,
gradually, in the proportions of ignorance and other wholesome factors
until ignorance is displaced then eradicated?

This would do away with the confusing need to wonder about ignorance
as a "default state," which, in my opinion, it is not.  It is however,
I believe, a root as you say.

H:  "The Kosambiya Sutta MN 48...sets out 7 things that are lokuttara:

[1]"...The bhikkhu knows, I haven't undispelled hindrances...These
things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for
realising the truth...

[2]"...internal appeasement, and internal extinction...

[3]"...this view with which I am endowed, is not shared by recluses
and brahmins of other sects...

[4]"...When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him...

[5]"...to be greatly intent in completing any work high or low that
has to be done for the co-associates in the holy life. Mindful of the
high virtues, training, and high wisdom...

[6]"...listens to the Teaching attending carefully to take the
essential with the mind well concentrated...

[7]"...to listen to the Teaching taught by the Blessed One and gain
the meanings, experience the Teaching and experience the joy..."

A good list indeed.  Thank you.

Sincerely,

Scott.


#60389	From: "gazita2002" <gazita2002@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:48 pm 
Subject: re: death and patience. (&soccer) 	gazita2002 

Hello Sarah, Nina, Han and all

   I remember a conversation in Gangtok, about patience and how we
often mistake 'our' patience for kusala when it is just the
opposite. A.Sujin was saying that sometimes it can be viriya
cetasika that we take for me-being-patient.

     I recall being very surprised about this as I had previously
thought that whenever 'I' was patient eg waiting in a queue, quietly
telling myself that to refrain from yelling 'hurry up' was kusala
however it invariably is not.

     Of course, only sati of the presently  arising dhamma would know
whether it was kusala or not.  Otherwise, it is really only
guesswork on our part. I imagine one has to be very truthful about
ones intentions at times of 'patience'. Is it truly patience,
Khanti, or are we fooling ourselves.
     For me, it feels like a long, long time before then is any
knowing what the present moment consists of; seems like lots of
thinking about this moment but no actually knowing it.

     Patience :-0 courage and good cheer,
     azita.

PS.GO THE SOCCEROOS !!!!!!!


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
<sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nina (& Han),
>
> --- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
> >Do we know when there is self love?
> > It helps me to consider the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta
> > developed.
> > He said, if there are no contrarious people how could I develop
> > patience?
> .....
> S: :-) A good reminder!
> ....
> > Someone kept on saying to me: now you keep quiet, you keep
quiet. It
> > worked
> > on my nerves. Kh Sujin said: let her say this again and again.
> ...
> S: I like this one too! Yes, it doesn't matter at all if people
disagree
> or have other ideas of how we should behave.
> ...
> > Others may not agree, so
> > what?
> > Why should we mind if people do not agree?
> > I hope Sarah will add something to this.
> ...


#60390	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:18 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mundane and Supramundane 	sarahprocter... 

Hi Mike (Scott, Ken H & Dan),

Always good to have your input Mike in any threads.

--- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote:
>....I inserted a slightly corrected and
> expanded quote from Ven. Ñåùamoli's translation and Ven. Bodhi's
> footnote below.
...
> >Scott: In the ATI, from Namoli's translation of the Commentary to the
> > Discourse on Right View (Buddhaghosa)....
....
> This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane
> (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge
> which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right
> view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is
> accompanied by the taints.2
>
> 2. The knowledge of kamma as one's own (kammassakatañana) is often
> expressed in the Suttas thus: "I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of
> my kamma, I spring from my kamma, I am bound to my kamma, I have kamma
> as my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, good or bad, of that I am the
> heir." In short, it is knowledge of the moral efficacy of action, of the
> fact that one's willed deeds fashion one's destiny. Knowledge in
> conformity with the truths (saccanulomikañana) is conceptual knowledge
> of the Four Noble Truths, accompanied by understanding and acceptance of
> them.
.....
S: This relates to the discussion I was having with Dan as well. I
referred to the firm sacca ~naa.na of the 4NT of one developing insight.
Of course the insight and wisdom arising is not 'conceptual', but the
understanding is so firm that there's no doubt about the Truths at other
times and theres no deviating from the path as I understand.

To continue the quote above from the beginning of the commentary to the
Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta:

"Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane
right view. The person possessing right view is of three kinds: the
worldling (puthujjana), the disciple in higher training (sekha), and the
one beyond training (asekha). Herein the worldling is of two kinds: one
outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one
outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on
account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that
which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of
self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both. The
disciple in higher training is one of right view on account of fixed right
view (S:niyata - fixed in destiny etc), the one beyond training on account
of (the right view) that is beyond training (S: the arahant)."

S: Again I think this was relevant to our earlier discussions.

Thanks all,

Metta,

Sarah
=======


#60391	From: "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:06 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta 	matheesha333 

Hi Howard,

Thanks a lot for the summary. It certainly contains the core of the
teaching. I will let the group know about the questions. The actual
speech is in a few months time - I decided to make a slow start on
it.

I'm aware that I wont be talking to a buddhist group so I thought to
place anatta in the teachings (the buddha taught two things -
suffering and the cessation of suffering ... four noble
truths ..craving...yathabuta nana ..tilakkana..) and also mention
vipassana. I will possibly also include how not clinging to atta
reduces suffering.

Thanks again for the help!

regards

Matheesha


#60392	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:12 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dying Moments - 7 	sarahprocter... 

Dear Han,

Thank you very much for your series of posts which I've enjoyed reading
and reflecting on. It's very helpful to give the theory and then your
personal comments as you've done.

There were so many good points and similes (like the cattle one), but I'll
just add a brief comment here for now:

--- han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

>
> Note: I had posted a gist (not in detail as I am
> writing now) of these ideas on two previous occasions
> in other forums. What I wanted to hear was words of
> encouragement saying that my plans of action are good
> and I should carry on. But what I heard was only
> skepticism or lukewarm response at best. Therefore, I
> had decided not to discuss these issues with anybody
> in the future. I am now writing this only because Nina
> urged me to do so.
>
> Although I was not encouraged, I am still stubbornly
> sticking to my plans of action. That was why I wrote
> to Nina that I can be, at times, very stubborn in my
> own foolish way.
>
....
S: I'm glad Nina did encourage you and I know many others will have
appreciated the posts as well.

We know, as Ken O pointed out, that the courses of action are anatta and
unpredictable. I think of the main examples in the texts of unexpected
happy and unhappy rebirths. For example, Queen Mallika was said to have
only committed one bad deed in this life which brought evil results and
the worst rebirthin hell, although this lasted only a few days. And then
there are example of the opposite. We have no idea.

However, as you do, we're bound to make all kinds of plans with different
kusala and akusala motives for both ourselves and our loved ones. I think
this is very natural and common and you've been very honest in this
regard. I understand exactly what your way of thinking is in this regard
and I appreciate your respect for what we read in the texts on kamma.

Whatever our plans, ideas and intentions, perhaps we can say the most
important thing is the development of understanding at these times of
planning and at other times too. Gradually, awareness can be aware of the
thinking, the hoping and expecting, the wise reflecting, the likes and
dislikes, the seeing, the visible object and any other dhammas appearing
now. The confidence in the path of satipatthana will accumulate and bring
its good results sooner or later, whether we make plans or now, wouldn't
you say?

Thank you again, Han for your wonderful contribution. Please keep sharing
your reflections in this way.

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60393	From: "matheesha" <dhammachat@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:18 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Leading to stream entry 	matheesha333 

Hi Kel,

>
>K: Hi Howard and Matheesha, (Tep, Eric, James)
>
>   I think we can agree that until one is an arahat, there's not
much
> to do but to keep "striving" toward that goal.  I'm going to put a
> few technical points below but this is not really a big issue to
me.
>
> > M: Levels of motivation to practice are determined by how bad
you
> think
> > the problem is. These people have real insight into the matter,
> into
> > tilakkana and arn't going to stop.
>
>    Kel: Howard used lesser-stream-enterer as a way of describing
> your position.  It's funny coincidence since that's the topic I
was
> discussing with Sarah in another thread (cula-sotapanna).  You can
> see that most of what you say would agree with this commentary
> position about cula-sotapannas.

M: Possibly. My only bone is that the word culla sotapanna isnt in
the suttas. However there are dhammanusarins and saddhnusarins who
are a rather neglected lot! Especially for those who's levels of
motivation are limited this is an important aspect of the dhamma.

K: My position there is that even up
> to sankharupekkha-nana, there's no guarantee of obtaining
> magga/phala and in that stage tilakkana is pretty well known
> already.

M: Certainly that is one way of looking at it. Then there is the
other issue of saddhanusarins and dhammanusarins being guaranteed
the sotapanna stage atleast at the point of death. These people only
have knowledge based on faith or pondering. How much more would
someone who has reached sanakharaupekkha-nana qualify for this?

K:  Perhaps more importantly we have this from maha-
> parinibbana, DN 16:
>
> "You, Ananda, speak out of confidence, while there is knowledge in
> the Tathagata that, in this community of monks, there is not even
a
> single monk who has any doubt or perplexity concerning the Buddha,
> Dhamma, or Sangha, the path or the practice. Of these 500 monks,
the
> most backward is a stream-winner, not destined for the planes of
> deprivation, headed to self-awakening for sure."
>
> Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Now, then, monks, I
> exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about
> completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last
words.
>
>    Kel: What would be the need for warning and to be heedful for
> post-stream-enterers?


M: Very interesting observation, Kel. There is one sutta which
speaks of 'sekha parihani' - deterioration of a trainee. These
ariyans apparently live in (relative) suffering due to a lack of
practice. So the motivation levels they have arent absolute. I think
that the urgency of fresh insight fades (as all things) with time
after reaching phala. Then there was the case of ven. moggallana
scanning the minds of sekha monks for defilements to instruct and
urge them towards higher and higher stages. I think in the
mahaparinibbana sutta the Buddha was not only urging those within
the dispensation at the time but knowing these were his last words,
urging everyone who comes after his passing away. This was the
reason for his existence. Maha-karuna.

>    Also look at
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-254.html
>    Here the fruit is used and it would be a mistake to say path is
> attainable but not fruit.

M: True.

>    Quoting MN 48:
>   "He discerns that, 'I am endowed with the strength of a person
> consummate in view.' This is the seventh knowledge attained by him
> that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-
mill
> people.
>
> "A disciple of the noble ones thus possessed of seven factors has
> well examined the character for the realization of the fruit of
> stream-entry. A disciple of the noble ones thus possessed of seven
> factors is endowed with the fruit of stream-entry."
>
>   You get comparison between fruit vs run-of-the-mill.  I think
> there's a case for path/fruit/attainments being used
> interchangeably.  Since you guys are Sutta experts, is there any
> stories of one who already reached magga but striving toward phala
> or something close to that?

M: I take your point. Sometimes magga is mentiond, sometimes phala
is mentioned. There is talk of those on the path to the fruit, as
you know. So the matter is not entirely clear.

>K:   Actually while I have your attention I have a question.  I
recall
> discussion you were having with Eric about Jhana, Matheesha.  Also
> Howard I know you have sat at Goenka's retreat once.  Please look
at
> following link:
> http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002b/jhana.htm

>   I was struck on the similarity of the techniques and one
curiously
> call it jhana and the other vipassana.  What are your thoughts?

M: What do you find is similar? This seems to be a straightforward
samatha practice, focusing on just one nimitta. Vipassana focuses on
many, as you already know. I guess what is similar is that sati
leads to samadhi, and samadhi leads to panna. The levels of sati,
samadhi and panna can vary. This is the mechanism of both samatha
and vipassana (if the two were be conceptually seperated).

with metta

Matheesha
ps- I suspect my involvement in the group will go down again due to
commitments. I have an important unfinished discussion with Sarah
(..if you are reading this..), which I will attend to in time.


#60394	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:50 pm 
Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 471- Non-Aversion/Adosa (c) 	sarahprocter... 

Dear Friends,

'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Questions, comments and different views welcome;-)
==========================================
Ch 29, Non-Aversion(Adosa)
*****
Nonaversion has the characteristic of freedom from savagery or
violence, it is gentle like a good friend. We may see the difference
between aversion and non-aversion when they appear in our daily
life. We may be very annoyed about someone or something, but
when we see the disadvantage of aversion there are conditions
for patience.

At that moment all the harshness which characterizes
aversion has gone and there is gentleness instead. There is no self
who is patient and gentle, but it is the cetasika non-aversion,
adosa.
*****
Non-Aversion(Adosa)to be contd

Metta,

Sarah
======


#60395	From: sharad goswami <pisean282311@...> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:19 pm 
Subject: The Fire of Sense-Desire 	pisean282311 

Dear All,

   Sense-Desire is the first, deepest and most common mental hindrance
(Nivarana).
The texts given below aim at illustrating how this obsessive and addictive urge
for
sensing only pleasure in the form of sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touches
arise,
cease, and is finally cured. The present-day dominance of the porno &
entertainment
industry speaks -in itself- clearly of this problems abundance among humans
today...

   for details- http://www.cam-associates.com/articles/sense_desire.htm
<..>


#60396	From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:23 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 81, and Tiika. 	nilovg 

Dear Scott,
Perhaps you did not read my other post. Is there anything not clear yet,
please tell me.
We may cling to seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, all dhammas that
appear now, and to concepts. As you have seen, kusala can be object dicisive
support-condition for kusala citta, but also for akusala citta that clings
to it, or that has wrong view.
Nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana are the
nine lokuttara dhammas. These are the only objects that cannot be clung to.
We also discussed this in Bgk.
It would be a contradictio in terminis, wouldn't it?
Nina.
op 11-06-2006 22:07 schreef Scott Duncan op scduncan@...:

Did I misread this (or worse, hallucinate this) in your original post?

N:  "Nibbaana and the lokuttara cittas that experience it cannot be
objects of clinging."


#60397	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:27 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Q & A (Revised) 	sarahprocter... 

Dear Maya & STEVen,

--- Maya Putra <vvhite_illusion@...> wrote:

> Dear Steven and Everyone,
>
> Here is the modified version, tell me what you think:
...
S: I thought the modified version was much better and thought STEVen gave
a lot of helpful input as usual. Maya, good to see you around again. I
forget where you live in Indonesia - I hope not near the recent earthquake
in Yogyakarta.
....
>There is a story by Ajanh Brahmavamso, which is as follows:
>
> Once there was a fisherman living on the Coast of Mexico. He went to
> fish early in the
> morning, caught some fish, and returned to shore by noon. He kept what
> he wanted for
> the day, and sold the balance to make a little money just enough to keep
> him going.  <...>
He said,
> perhaps when you
> make a fortune, you can retire to a fishing village like this one, do a
> little fishing for fun
> and enjoy the life with your family. "Senor, I am doing that already",
> replied the fisherman.
....
S: Good story!
...
> Why should one go to the temple to learn Dhamma?
>
> - Why does one eat?  One eats to support the body of course.  What about
> the mind?  The
> mind also needs food.  Going to the temple is like food for the mind.
....
S: It certainly can be. As there are a few surfers who hang out here, I'd
say 'developing satipatthana is like food for the mind', no matter whether
one hits the waves in Hawaii or goes to a temple in Jakarta:-). The
realities to be known such as seeing, hearing, like and dislike arise
anywhere, anytime.

Keep sharing what you write, Maya and thanks to STEVen for all his helpful
comments.

Metta,

Sarah
========


#60398	From: sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:44 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A summary of the Teaching ... Taste Your Own Medicine First... 	sarahprocter... 

Hi Herman,

--- Herman Hofman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> >  S: I would say, it is experienced as it happens (by citta).
> Afterwards
> >  there are inferences and concepts about it. But even when there are
> >  inferences and concepts about 'raw sensation', the thinking and
> >  conceptualising are very real. We can't say the present moment is 'an
> >  inference, a concept.' There may be thinking about concepts now,
> there may
> >  be experiences of paramattha dhammas now. The cittas and cetasikas
> which
> >  experience any of these objects at any time are always real.
> >  ....
<...>
> >  >H: Seeing is visible
> >  > object.
> >  ...
> >  S: No - they are quite distinct dhammas. Seeing is nama, a kind of
> citta.
> >  Visible object is rupa which doesn't know or experience anything.
> >  ....
<...>
> >  S: I believe I understand what you are saying, but I believe you're
> >  underestimating the quality of awareness here. Awareness can be aware
> of a dhamma that appears 'exactly as it is'. Of course, it has to
>>develop and only panna will clearly know when there is and isn't
>>awareness.
> >
> >  Otherwise, it would be a path of thinking and inference only. But
> it's not.
.....
>H: Yes, I believe that I understand where you are coming from. I have
> some thoughts about it. I suspect that you are telling me about the
> Abh model, not about what you experience.
.....
S: If you think I was talking about models then I'm afraid you don't
understand where I'm coming from. I really have no interest in models for
the sake of model building or any other purpose.

As far as I'm concerned, the Abhidhamma (whatever one wants to call it) is
dhamma right now. Seeing is Abhidhamma, visible object is Abhidhamma,
understanding the distinction at this moment (not as a model) is
Abhidhamma.

There's no point (as I see it) in talking about what 'he' or 'she' or
'you' or 'I' experience, because then we go wrong again. 'Dhamma now' and
'understanding dhamma now' has nothing to do with anyone experiencing, but
everything to do with awareness being aware of it and understanding
understanding it.

I think the rest of your reply was about models, until we get to this:

H:> The Dhamma, however, is timeless, and independent of clever models and
> abstract philosophising. The Suttas do not need systemisation in order
> to render the 4NT as a valid representation of the way things are. But
> for those who hitch their wagon to specific models of mind as a way
> out of samsara there is a dilemma. The reality of dukkha is
> unchanging, but the models of mind are as subject to change as every
> other darn formation.
>
> Conceptual "understandings" are the domain of the puthajjana, and the
> only way out is to cease conceiving of those understandings.
....
S: OK, instead of being concerned about others' dilemmas, what about
understanding the present dhamma appearing now as we speak? Otherwise,
it's still more thinking about theories of others' models.

The way out (as in MN1)is not to not conceptually understand, but to
directly know dhammas such as 'hardness' (pathavi dhatu) as 'hardness'
rather than to proliferate with attachment, wrong view and conceit about
the world.

Thanks, Herman.

metta,

Sarah
p.s Like Ken O, I thought you phrased your comments rather nicely in the
thread on 'dying'.
========


#60399	From: Jonothan Abbott <jonabbott@...> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:54 am 
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 433- ..Why Wait if You Can Now? 	jonoabb 

Hi Tep

indriyabala wrote:

>Hi Jon , -
>
>I am glad that finally you have reached the point that I agree with
>more than 50%.
>
>

A rare occasion indeed!

>What I still disagree is that, while you and I are still practicing
>according to the Eightfold Path, we are completely powerless to
>condition certain kusala dhammas to arise at will. The abstaining from
>lying, killing, etc. are some example of the kusalas that we can do
>now. Why wait? If you want to be kind and generous now, why wait?
>
>

I feel I am somehow missing the point of what you are saying.  It might
help if you could give an example of how abstaining from lying, killing,
etc. is something that we can do now (my difficulty is, I thought we had
agreed that this kind of kusala can only arise when there is the
inclination to do one of these acts in the first place).  Thanks.

I agree that in the case of kindness and generosity there are plenty of
opportunities that arise in a day, and as you say, why wait?  But the
fact remains that not much kindness or generosity actually arises.  Yes,
it is good to be reminded of the value of there being more kindness and
generosity in our day, but can it be forced? or, should I say, is the
forced version the real thing (is it actually kusala)?

Jon