#61800 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:34 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidhamma origins dacostacharles Hi Nina, So the Buddha was lying or mistaken when he claimed to be “so and so” in a past-life (as you have stated before)? Charles DaCosta [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina van Gorkom Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 11:34 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidhamma origins Hi Charles D, Op 21-jul-2006, om 21:29 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > How could one have past lives and not be reincarnated? ---------- N: No person has past lives, there is no person who could become reincarnated. I quote some of the Material written by Nyanatiloka that Howard posted. <...> end quotes. If you have questions about this, do ask. As I said, each citta that arises is succeeded by the next one, and thus past kamma and also accumulated good and bad inclinations are as it were carried on from one moment to the next moment. The word carried on is figurative, used to explain something. When the Buddha speaks about his past lives, it is figurative or conventional language. We need the Abhidhamma to have understanding of his words. ***** Nina. #61801 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the abhidhamma of existentialism lbidd2 Hi Herman, Maybe "discriminates" isn't a good word for the function of votthapana. How about "define"? _____________________ On 12/07/06, LBIDD@... wrote: Hi Herman, Votthapana citta defines or determines the object but does not determine the javana. CMA p.44: "In the five-door process, determining consciousness succeeds the investigating consciousness. After the investigating consciousness has examined the object, the determining consciousness discriminates it. H: "I'm afraid this does not enlighten me (my failing). Determining consciousness discriminates it"s object? I'm not having a go at you here, but it seems very circular. What is the upshot of discriminating?" __________________ L: The upshot is an identified object. Larry #61802 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > As for your apology, I am not an idiot. There is a past, you know, and > a future. Suffice it to say that serial wife beaters also apologise, > serially. Its part of the game. Dear Herman Thanks for waiting before you replied and thanks for being honest. I don't know what to say apart from the fact that I've read your post and samsara rolls on until we find the way out. Best wishes Andrew Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:12 pm Subject: Re: The growth of panna & understanding of sakkaya ditthi philofillet Hi Sarah and all > I've appreciated your discussions. I was listening to part of an old tape > (from Myanmar) and someone was asking about knowing sakkaya ditthi in > daily life. We may think that sakkaya ditthi (and other wrong views) are > prevalent all around us, but is there any understanding of sakkaya ditthi > when it arises and appears? This is an interesting point. I think I know the talk you mean, or one like it. A Thai man - I guess Kom but maybe not - was saying that he has trouble really getting an understanding of the twenty types of identity view. He regards form as self, self possessing form etc. And Acharn Sujin says there is no use considering those 20 types - only one will appear and one will know it or not, at that time. And that is the kind of answer I am appreciating so very very much from Acharn Sujin. Always bringing us back to the present reality. Always bringing us back to the present reality. Always... On the other hand, there are times at which since she has such a wide and deep understanding of the texts perhaps she could help with a bit more textual background - I think that at times. But it is better that she bring us away from that hunger for textual knowledge, back to the present reality. Re the 20 sakkaya dithi, I think perhaps it can be helpful to reflect on the similes that are given in the commentaries (I don't know which one.) Here is what the commentarial note in BB's notes to the Khandasamyutta (p.1044) say: "He regards form as self by regarding form and the self as indistinguishable, just as the flame of an oil lamp and its colour are indistinguishable. He regards self as possessing form when he takes the formless (ie the mind or mental factors) as a self that possesses form, in the way a tree possesses a shadow; form as in self, when he takes the formless(mind) as a self within which form is sitting, as the scent is in a flower; self as in form, when he takes the formless (mind) as a self situatied in form, as a jew in a casket" (And he goes on to teach about which of these are said to be annihalist view, which eternalist etc.) Now you know and I know, and anyone else who has listened at length knows, Acharn Sujin has insight into this sort of thing. There is a desire for her to talk about what she understands about these similes, for example, rather than saying "when the reality is not arising there is no use thinking about it" or something like that. But she does us such a huge favour when she says that - she understands the way we hunger for answers to our questions like bears hungering for honey, hungry, greedy bears that end up getting their heads stuck in the pots with their bottoms sticking out! (unexpected turn of the sentence, hmmm.) Anways, I am appreciating her more and more. She really is a great teacher and Dhamma friend. Phil p.s and perhaps i will reflect on those similes. There is no telling. With deep and subtle points, I take a look, see if understanding there, and drop it quickly when I see that it isn't. It is *not* to be had by *bear*ing down! pps No time to re-read the rest of the post, but as you as we can just exchange what we hear without worrying about replying. #61804 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Now you do have me thinking; what a maniacal idea you've just given me... H: "In the best interests of your children, adopt them out." Sarah wants me to post some photos of the kids. Perhaps I'll go all out and just offer them for sale - you know advertisements.... H: "Did you write this post, or did it just happen?" Do you mean conventionally? H: "I guess that even your reply will just happen" But did I do it or not?;-)) With loving kindness, Scott. #61805 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:12 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana scottduncan2 Dear James, Sorry, I forgot you were off to Taiwan. No internet access then? James: "Good, I hope you enjoy the article. But if it takes more than a week I will be in Taiwan and I might not see your response." I'll give you some initial comments, having given the article the once over this morning, but it'll need a couple more reads. James: "Well, I wouldn't worry too much about how something feels at first. Did the Buddha ever teach that people should just do what "feels natural"? Buddhism is about renunciation and doing things to change your lifestyle- so that it isn't so sense addicted. If you only read about Buddhism and continue to follow the status quo, then you aren't really a Buddhist." I'm actually more worried about "why" I'd be doing some of the things noted in the article. Renunciation can be a sort of inner-thing, don't you think? I mean a way of living from the inside - a way of approaching the world. My balking is more at things like setting up a shrine, or chanting, or even, prostrating. I do understand your point of trying these things, in a way, but I don't, for example, see the point in setting up a shrine in my room. Am I a Buddhist if I act like one? And I realise you're just using the term "buddhist" in a manner of speaking but am I not a Buddhist if I even think of things as being not as meets the eye? My colleague at work isn't going to be sitting in a meeting considering the sights and sounds and events as I am from the viewpoint of the Dhamma. The Buddha faced the same thing. He "knew" that renunciation was a good idea, but it just didn't feel "natural" to him. He determined that it didn't feel "natural" because he hadn't completely explored it: Good sutta, James. What's the reference, please? J: "So, rather than just dismissing something as "foreign" or "unnatural", you should give it a try in order to see the benefit of it." I'll keep considering, James. A couple of more reads and I'll try to say more. I hope I don't seem obtuse. I just really don't get this aspect of things... With loving kindness, Scott. #61806 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:21 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions scottduncan2 Dear Connie, Thanks for the return post. c: "& only glimmer (if mem serves) is visible object. "sorta like that" i remind myself when i wonder what a significator is standing on pointing out. we're already way off into derivative land, but how does one go about 'living life' without any concept? living, continuity. the old perversions. life = jivitindriya, a cetasika, isn't it? (and i may be over-stating, but) that which gives these cittas the opportunity to force rupa to sweat." Yeah, derivatives. I don't know but it sounds like nimitta. Or echos. What does it look like when it looks like it is? No, I don't suppose one can feel like one is alive without concepts. The old perversions indeed. And jivitindriya is a cetasika, at least the book I read said so. You're saying this frequent flyer conditions effort? Probably not, I just tried to paraphrase an apparent living thesaurus. Its beautiful. c: "...it's been on the warm side in this high desert plains area pretty much since day one of summer - like calendarwork, man. still 112F after work today... long day, but fun. the hotel maintenance guy's last & when he finally ended up in the pool, this hostage went with him. friends? where! mostly in the dark." Fahrenheit, eh? We're into the mid-30's (celsius, that's the metric system) and this is supposed to be Canada. No sleep. c: "like they are process servers and we only talk about them after they've come and gone, yeah? Texts are full of similes. The king's ministers come to mind. However (happily) indebted we are to the translators, remember that they are traitors when you are tempted to take them at their word, I guess... like Phil joking about heroin when we know he's after the real dope: "cessation by deliverance & destruction" ~ nissara.na & samuccheda nirodha." Yes, I know the one about the king's ministers. Thanks, that does make sense. And nice point about translators; there has been trouble caused by the appearance of conventional speech lately. c: "'it is just like gold which will enslave a person who earnestly desires it'.... that's just another nice line from the *Guide to Conditional Relations, the section on Analogies of Object Predominance Condition: which conditioning state << can make the conditioned mental states, which take it as object, obey its wishes and can exert its influence to make them respect and serve it constantly. >> * That is seriously ("cirrus-ly," as I was joking with my six year old who is obsessed with weather systems and cloud types) a very interesting statement regarding object predominance condition, Connie. I dig it, if I may say. Is this not a very deep sort of thing? http://www.pariyatti.com/catalog.cgi?sort=subselect&subject=Pali%20Text%20Societ\ y%20-%20In%20English&sid=22 c: "if you want, i've copied out some of the Guide to CR and can send you a file." That would be great, Connie. I've got to get the volume, and will order it as soon as I pay for Dhammasanghani (sp) and its commentary. I've got the two volumes of Conditional Relations, and am waiting for lightning to strike so they make some sense to me. What an amazing fold out flow chart! A commentary you say? Hmm... Hey, I enjoy discussing things with you! With loving kindness, Scott. #61807 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:28 pm Subject: Re: bhaavana buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Sorry, I forgot you were off to Taiwan. No internet access then? James: Right, I'm not going to have Internet access in my apartment. I will use Internet cafes only for e-mails and school related research. > > James: "Good, I hope you enjoy the article. But if it takes more > than a week I will be in Taiwan and I might not see your response." > > I'll give you some initial comments, having given the article the once > over this morning, but it'll need a couple more reads. > > James: "Well, I wouldn't worry too much about how something feels at > first. Did the Buddha ever teach that people should just do > what "feels natural"? Buddhism is about renunciation and doing > things to change your lifestyle- so that it isn't so sense > addicted. If you only read about Buddhism and continue to follow > the status quo, then you aren't really a Buddhist." > > I'm actually more worried about "why" I'd be doing some of the things > noted in the article. James: He explains the reasons for all of the things noted in the article. Renunciation can be a sort of inner-thing, > don't you think? James: Didn't you read that quote by the Buddha? What do you mean an by an "inner thing"? I think you should study more about renunciation and start with the Vinaya Pitaka. After all, you could be sitting naked in a hot tub, beautiful blond women on either side, drinking a glass of champagne and passing around lines of coke- and still believe you are renouncing the worldly life. After all, it only happens on the inside, right??? I mean a way of living from the inside - a way of > approaching the world. James: It seems you fit in perfectly with the K.Sujin crowd. Personally, I think it's a bunch of nonsense. (Funny story: Shortly after I joined DSG I was posting to the group about my failed attempt at becoming a monk. Sarah and Nina both wrote to me off- list and told me that it wasn't necessary to become a monk to follow the Buddha's teachings. I then thought to myself, "Oh God, I'm screwed! If they think I did the right thing then now I know I definitely did the WRONG thing!" ;-)) My balking is more at things like setting up a > shrine, or chanting, or even, prostrating. I do understand your point > of trying these things, in a way, but I don't, for example, see the > point in setting up a shrine in my room. James: Well, read the article. It explains the point of setting up a shrine. I had a shrine set up in my living room when I lived in America but I haven't done it since living in Egypt (my housekeeper and cook, being Muslim, probably wouldn't understand or approve). But, when I get to Taiwan one of the first things I will do is set up a Buddhist shrine again. In the mornings and evenings I show respect to the Buddha image, light a candle and incense, and meditate in front of it. The Buddha shrine is to remind you that the Buddha is your teacher and that you respect him and owe so much to him!! The interesting thing is that K. Sujin's Foundation in Bangkok doesn't have a Buddha shrine at all. I was really shocked to learn that, at first. But then it makes sense. K. Sujin doesn't really recognize the Buddha as the supreme teacher. > > Am I a Buddhist if I act like one? James: Well, I would imagine that you actions would reflect an inner state of mind, so I would say yes. And I realise you're just using > the term "buddhist" in a manner of speaking but am I not a Buddhist if > I even think of things as being not as meets the eye? My colleague at > work isn't going to be sitting in a meeting considering the sights and > sounds and events as I am from the viewpoint of the Dhamma. James: You have no idea what your colleague is thinking and shouldn't care. I don't really understand your point here. > > The Buddha faced the same thing. He "knew" that renunciation was a > good idea, but it just didn't feel "natural" to him. He determined > that it didn't feel "natural" because he hadn't completely explored > it: > > Good sutta, James. What's the reference, please? James: Sorry I forgot to include it: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html#re nunciation > > J: "So, rather than just dismissing something as "foreign" > or "unnatural", you should give it a try in order to see the benefit > of it." > > I'll keep considering, James. A couple of more reads and I'll try to > say more. I hope I don't seem obtuse. I just really don't get this > aspect of things... James: It's okay, at least you are trying to understand and I appreciate your efforts. > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > Metta, James #61808 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:33 pm Subject: Good trip to Taiwan (was:Re: bhaavana buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo James > > Till now I had not res[ponded to your more personal posts. Tried to > do but could not find the good tone James: That's okay, there is no reason to respond (unless to say that you liked something ;-). You are on my mailing list so you will be getting my updates about Taiwan. > Have a good trip to Taiwan. And I hope you find your way. James: Thank you. Still trying to get the luggage regulations figured out! :-) > I think we 'see' each other back in this DSG-forum. > > What I know of Taiwan (not much) is that buddhism is mainly Mahayna. > I'm curious if you like the way it is practised. James: I have been many times to a Mahayana temple in America and practiced meditation there. I like them just fine. > > With metta > > Joop Metta, James #61809 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: Re: An apology to Herman philofillet Hi Herman Now you've made us think that if we don't write to you we are assaulting you so I will write to you so as not to assault you. I don't know what was so awful about Andrew's post. He said that what you wrote was the "most outrageous post I've ever read at DSG" and that you were arrogant. I've many times read you say that you are aware of being contrary or a rebel or not toeing the party line or this or that. Those aren't exact words but I know you have said things that make it clear that you are aware that your posts are provocative. You aren't stupid so you know that what you write has a provocative aspect to it. You know that very well. Why not reflect on what it causes others to go through, what processes (often painful) that cause them to lash out? That's what I should do too because I am full aware of writing things that I know will be irritating to other people but go ahead and do it, and even secretly enjoy doing it. I will probably continue doing that for the time being - there is no way for me to *not* be irritated when I come to DSG - the uppekha (equanimity) is not just there and there is such strong clinging to Dhamma. So I will continue to be obnoxious and arrogant because it is the only way for me to participate at DSG at this time. That could change tomorrow and I could be friendly again like I was a couple of months ago. Processes beyond my control. Anyways, I have written to you to avoid assaulting you by silent assent! I trust you will continue to be provocative and arrogant because otherwise you'd be pretending to be something that you are not. A lot of modern Buddhists do that. But you and I can both benefit by reflecting on the way our words may or may not be responsible for causing unpleasant cittas processes as they echo here and there. Right speech is most definitely *not* fix intentionally. It takes a long time for the gutter that runs between our brains and our mouth to be cleaned out. Only a lot of rainfall will do that, rainfall in the form of experience understood in the light of the Buddha's teaching. Rainfall cannot be controlled. It falls, and we benefit from it. It sinks in to the hard crusted soil of our mind ever so gradually. What do you know? Friendly cittas arose. So I will write the "m" word when I sign off. I hope you are not feeling beat-up-on-the-bus these days. metta, Phil > but I have felt the fear of again being silently > assaulted by the group as a whole (save lone acquarian). You, and the > group, have succeeded in intimidating me. > > Well done. > > As for your apology, I am not an idiot. There is a past, you know, and > a future. Suffice it to say that serial wife beaters also apologise, > serially. Its part of the game. > > > > Herman > #61810 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I have waited for a week and a bit, and I have read all the things you > have written that serve to justify everything you do, and I have read > the silence of the group. I have wanted to reply to a number of things > you have writtten, but I have felt the fear of again being silently > assaulted by the group as a whole (save lone acquarian). You, and the > group, have succeeded in intimidating me. I didn't read anything in this thread or I might have written something, but probably not. After all, this group is higly moderated and members soon learn to stay out of personal disputes unless they want a flurry of off-list e-mails telling them to stay out of it ;- )). So, I wouldn't take the silence personally. Metta, James #61811 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: So, I wouldn't take the silence personally. > > Metta, > James > I forgot to add a ps.: I read your suggestion to Scott that he put his children up for adoption and I thought it was very offensive and bizarre. To his credit, I see that he responded in a disarming way. If you had written the same thing to me about my kids I would have told you to shove it. #61812 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:12 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 495- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== We read in the Visuddhimagga (IX, 96) about the divine abiding of equanimity: * "Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. Its function is to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. Its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: “Beings are owners of their deeds. Whose (if not theirs) is the choice by which they will become happy, or will get free from suffering, or will not fall away from the success they have reached?” "It succeeds when it makes resentment and approval subside, and it fails when it produces the equanimity of unknowing, which is that (worldly-minded indifference of ignorance) based on the home-life." * Ignorance is called the “near enemy” of equanimity, because one may think that there is equanimity when there is actually ignorance. Its far enemies are greed and resentment. When there is attachment or aversion there cannot be equanimity at the same time. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61813 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:18 am Subject: Feeding Calm ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is Feeding the Tranquillity Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, exactly & even so are the Seven Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot survive without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening and also feeding of the completion by cooling of already arisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening? There are 2 kinds of Calm: Tranquillity of the Body (kaya-passaddhi) & Tranquillity of the Mind (citta-passaddhi)! Frequently giving careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the arising of any unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening and also feeding of the gradual fulfilment of any already arisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs all emergence of a yet unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening & which also hinders any already arisen Tranquillity Link from reaching fulfilment by development? There are these two kinds of serene & composed calm, which should be differentiated: Tranquillity of the Body (kaya-passaddhi) & Tranquillity of the Mind (citta-passaddhi) Not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents an unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening from arising and also blocks any already arisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening from reaching any complete fulfilment by mental training and progressive development by meditation... Comments from the classical commentaries: Peace is the characteristic of the Tranquillity Link to Awakening (Passaddhi-sambojjhanga). Stilling of body, feeling, perception, any mental construction and the changing consciousness is the purpose of the quality of Tranquillity. Settled, serene and stilled calm (samatha) is the excessively pleasant manifestation of the Tranquillity Link to Awakening. A smiling mountain! When the mirror moves one cannot see anything clearly in it. So also with mind: When stressed & agitated, mind cannot figure out what is long-term good. But when stilled and imperturbable mind can cut right through any distraction and attain absolute certainty and understanding... Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the Tranquillity Link to Awakening are: 1: Eating good and fine food... 2: Living in a pleasant climate... 3: Maintaining a comfortable posture without pain or distress... 4: Staying ballanced in all situations and regarding all aspects... 5: Avoidance of restless, anxious, agitated and stressed people... 6: Friendship with bodily and mentally calmed people, who meditates much! 7: Commitment to calm down the mind by cultivating quiet and tranquillity! There is Tranquillity of the Body and there is Tranquillity of the Mind! These mutually depend upon and enhance each other into even deeper stilling. Awakening is solid calm! Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... ----------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. #61814 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:34 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidhamma origins sarahprocter... Hi Charles, How's the Kung Fu class doing? --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > So the Buddha was lying or mistaken when he claimed to be “so and so” in > a > past-life (as you have stated before)? .... S: No the Buddha wasn't lying - he was talking in conventional language. We say that there is Charles and Sarah and that last year there was Charles and Sarah, but really there are only ever mental and physical phenomena. The Buddha stressed there was no being, no person, no Tathagata, no soul - just elements. Can Charles or Sarah be experienced? Could they be experienced last life? How? Metta, Sarah ======= #61815 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Roots of Good and Evil, 2. sarahprocter... Hi Herman (& all), Several weeks ago, you made some very insightful comments in this thread, I believe (#60180). I'd like to add some further comments, relating it to some of your current frustrations with many of us here: --- Herman Hofman wrote: > From a dhamma perspective, there are of course no good or bad friends > that > say anything either. And from a momentary perspective, there is no > meaning > of words to be pondered or understood. There is only sound, arising, > changing, ceasing. That is all that can be understood. The conditions > that > turn all that sound into meaning are all in one's head, it is entirely a > mental process, and whether whatever is heard turns out to be a good or > bad > friend is entirely up to the hearing mind. .... S: I really think you hit the nail on the head. [I might have said this at the time, but as in the discussion you were having with Andrew and Jon, generally most people prefer to sit back and let threads run their course. No one can join in every thread here after all:-).] As you say here, the meaning is 'all in one's head, it is entirely a mental process'. Sounds are just sounds and if we feel we've been unfairly abused or ignored through the eye-door or ear-door, doesn't that say more about the mental process than anything else? We often talk about the value of good friendship and how essential this is on the path. From an ultimate point of view (or dhamma perspective as you put it), doesn't this really refer to the 'association with the wise' in our heads again? I think it's a rather important because it isn't just a question, as you suggest, of what we hear or what situation we find ourselves in, but what kind of mental processes are involved. Someone might be in the company of the Buddha, like Devadatta, but have no 'association with the wise' at the time. Another person may have no physical contact with dhamma friends (even by internet), but through reading/listening and wise reflection enjoy good friendship, this 'association with the wise'. .... >From a momentary perspective, > there can be no helpful or unhelpful content in any message, because all > there is is sound and silence. There is neither content nor message. > So how can the hearing of a message with content be a conditioning > factor > for the present moment, if hearing meaning in sound indicates that one > is > totally oblivious to the present moment? ..... S: I'd like to have a stab at this complex and astute question too and again to relate it to recent threads. It's true that hearing only hears sounds, seeing only sees visible objects and so on. But this doesn't mean that all sounds are the same or all visible objects are the same. Memory (sanna) marks and remembers each sound, visible object or any other object of consciousness at each moment and on account of the combination of different objects marked, those mental processes you referred to are conditioned according to our various accumulations or tendencies. So we may see similar visible objects on the screen or hear similar sounds (rather conventionally speaking there), but be inclined to think about them in very different ways, with wise or unwise attention for a start. The problems which arise (as you therefore know) are not the vipakas - i.e. the experiences of seeing, hearing and so on, but the deep-rooted mental responses. If there is a guarding of the sense doors, if there is awareness of sound or visible object or another dhamma, there is no proliferating about them at such times. However, if we haven't heard about dhammas, if we haven't heard about anatta, if we haven't considered a lot, such awareness will not arise, wouldn't you say? I also wonder if the real problem in those mental processes isn't always related to our concerns for our own well-being. What do you think? We think we've been treated badly or abused or ignored and instead of equanimity, there is impatience or intolerance or unwise reflection as recently quoted from 'Cetasikas' (#61750). In our great concern for ourselves, this can actually prompt us to speak or behave unpleasantly ourselves in turn. You have many very good friends here, Herman. Those whom you've spoken to 'directly' recently being amongst the best. May we all learn to treat our friends with the respect and courtesy we'd like to be treated. Thank you for helping me to reflect on these topics further:-) Metta, Sarah p.s In case you wonder, this message is written as a friend in dhamma, not as a moderator in any way. ======== #61816 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abh in Daily Life, no 12. sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This gave me a laugh, but please apologize to your mother. It was meant > for a juvenal > sense of humor. .... S: I'd have thought she'd be used to it by now, she's heard a lot over the years....but no, she keeps hoping everyone will talk about pleasant topics:-). ..... > On the other hand, why didn't you explain the difference between kusala > and akusala > vipaka, or the difference between concept and reality, or between nama > and rupa. .... S: She knows about kusala and akusala, but her Christian beliefs are too strong for the rest to penetrate....Still, she loves her holidays with us and is very tolerant of daily dhamma doses, I must say. .... >What is > the difference between the beautiful Swiss mountains when you are a > tourist and when you > are lost in the mountains? .... S: Different ways of thinking about the sense objects experienced? With lobha, with dosa and so on? Is it a trick question? Metta, Sarah ======= #61817 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What did Sarah say to Betty? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > I heard a talk recently in which Betty says that something Sarah > told her helped her deal with the great slew of harsh vipaka that > was falling her way. > > I'm curious about what Sarah said and I'm going to ponder it > today. We know of course that remembering and understanding to the > degree that we are capable that all that befalls us through the six > doors is vipaka, and that it is conditioned dhamma, and that our > response to it, whther kusala or akusala, is also conditioned > dhamma - remembering this and understanding it - that is what it's > all about. ... S: What you say is true as we all know. But it wasn't along the lines of what I said. I'll leave you guessing, but can I give a clue as I know you have a penchant for intrigues? Should we have a prize for the winner? Clue no 1: It wasn't anything K.Sujin would ever, ever say:-) ***** Btw, not just Betty but nearly everyone has a tough time on these trips. A keen dhamma student just left during one as I recall. It may have been on the same tape that K.Sujin said something like 'isn't it good to know one's akusala, otherwise one might think one is better than before' - of course, with a big smile as she said it:-)). Metta, Sarah ======= #61818 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... How about upadana? And bhava ? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > ... Hallo Jon, all The dynamics of our discussion don't make really progress. But perhaps that will come. >Joop (several weeks ago):"What have (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and >ritual and, (4) personality-belief in common ? > >Jon (two weeks ago): "They are all aspects of wrong view (Pali: miccha ditthi). Wrong >view is rooted in lobha." > >Joop (a week ago): You will be right that (2) erroneous views, (3) rules and ritual and, >(4) personality-belief are aspects of 'wrong view', but my question is: >Am I in your opinion wrong when I perceive them also as the desire to >reduce anxiety? Or don't you like such psychological language? Jon (some days ago): "Could you give an example of what you have in mind by 'desire to reduce anxiety' in this context? Thanks" Joop (now): That example can of course be #2 of the aspects of 'wrong view': finding rules and rituals important, doing them out of some magical thinking. And my question of a week ago ("Or don't you like such psychological language?") had also to do with a discussion between us some weeks ago On your question, Jon: "By the way, you haven't said why you find the passage (of Payutto) so helpful. Would you like to say a little about this?" I answered, Joop: "I used the term "psychological" and that's why I find the passage of Payutto so helpful. It's modern language of people who are used to think in psychological terms, a way of thinking and a language that only exist a hundred year or so." A second 'thread' On your question (some weeks ago), Jon: "However, if you'd like to adopt any passage from the article as reflecting your own view, I'd be very happy to discuss the passage on that basis." I answered, Joop: "The main conclusion I made after reading Payutto is: >D.O. is explained by the Buddha in a general way, it can be used in >three ways (in none of the three is wrong): >- as explaining a causal process within a moment >- as explaining a causal process within a life >- as explaining a causal process within three lifetimes >Do you agree with that? You react now to this answer with: Jon: "I don't know a whole lot about DO and I find it a difficult area. I have seen reference to DO as being something that applies within a life or over 3 lifetimes, but I don't think I've seen DO described as as an explanation of a causal process within a moment. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Does the author give any references for this particular idea? What is the practical significance of it? Joop: All your questions can be answered if you read Payutto yourself, it's really helpfull to understand D.O. better (even if you don't agree with all his text) ( www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/002-dependent5.htm and appendix A) And about your question :"Also, is there some particular significance in the author's use of 'causal'? I do not understand the conditioning factors in DO to be necessarily 'causal' in their effect." My answer is: Of course we use the term 'causal' here in the meaning as the Buddha did, as 'conditioning', with the words: "When there is this, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this is absent, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases." Metta Joop #61819 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re : Motivation sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, --- Daniel wrote: > I read the examples, thank you for them. I think I am somehow > brainwashed by > the idea that "Whatever you do to others, returns to you like a > boomerang". I > was taught this, as a "stimulation" not to harm others. 'If you behave > badly to > others, they will behave badly to you. So do not!'. But is this > really true? .... S: It's rather simplistic, but it's a good lesson for children and a fine general principle, I think. Generally speaking, if we're kind to others, they're more likely to be kind to us, but not necessarily so. Also, of course, the reason to be kind or to behave well is because that is the 'better' way, not to receive good from others with expectations and wishes for ourselves. .... > Maybe it has meaning within the context of many lifetimes. But do you > think it > is always true, within the context of one lifetime? For example, people > sometimes behave badly to you simply because they are in a bad mood... .... S: Right! A friend told me at my yoga class that she's always moody when it's a moon day. Anything can be a condition, depending on the person's tendencies. .... > It might > be that the response of other people depends not only on your behaviour, > but > also on their personality. Do you agree? .... S: Definitely, yes. We can try not to provoke others or to speak kindly, but the results are out of our control. Good to hear your further reflections. Metta, Sarah ======= #61820 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!? sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: S:> > I wanted to bring this sutta quote which Ven Samahita gave to your > > attention because of the reference to the five 'pollutions of the > mind'. <...> ... J:> Thanks for drawing my attention to this quote. It is very good to > reflect on. Lately I have been focusing on my mental pollution of > ill will. I have been pretty good at controlling bursts of anger > and irritation, but I still notice ill will creeping in the back > door- and it often wears the guise of Buddhism! ;-)) I find myself > thinking things like "Oh, I hope he/she really gets what he/she > deserves! I hope that karma catches up to that person for their > evil actions." Then I have to catch myself and realize that I am > wishing for bad things to happen to someone, AND THAT ISN'T GOOD! .... S: It's not good, but at least you're honest and recognise it for what it is. Kusala and akusala when we think of others all day long. .... > > It is very difficult to eliminate the pollutions of the mind...maybe > as difficult, if not more difficult, than eliminating the pollution > of Hong Kong. ;-)) ... S: Ah yes, Hong Kong will get its pollution cleared up long before our minds get purified ;-)). Btw, I think I had meant to suggest you listen to Bodh Gaya 1, not Benares 1. It doesn't matter - I was glad to hear you were persisting with a little more, even though I know you disagree with much of the content and find it irritating. Try Nalanda for a good track or go back to the series with Erik if you want to hear more challanging of the points! Back to this discussion and somewhere Azita makes a comment about how there seems to be more and more rot of various kinds in the mind (not her words) and K.Sujin says that this is good, because it shows the growth of understanding when we see more and more wrong view and other 'pollutions' of all kinds. I think you'll agree with that at least. Metta, Sarah ======= #61821 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >When you state, then, that you "don't think there is such a thing as >'bare mindfulness' where the object of the mindfulness is a dhamma," I >understand this to be a statement against the possibility of making >such an event occur. > Right. As I understand things, only panna can directly 'know' a dhamma, so that the occurrence of mindfulness of a dhamma, but with no panna involved, is not possible. >Stating that only accompanied by wisdom can such >minfulness occur, I understand you to be saying that this is a >possible arising, given the right conditions, but cannot be controlled >or directed. > Right. Mindfulness accompanied by wisdom is a possible arising, but is not something that can be controlled or directed. >Really, as I read many of the threads these days, it is this very >point that seems to be the one being debated, in one form or another. > This thesis, that there can be no practise, seems only a little bit >popular, if at all. I'm able to accept it as far as I understand it, >but that likely isn't very far. > The idea of 'no practice' takes a bit of getting used to, but I find it helps to think of the 'development' of understanding as 'growth' of understanding, something that, if the right conditions are in place, happens imperceptiblely but nevertheless inevitably. >I've been shadowing the discussions about the Karunadasa essay. I've >read it a few times and find it to be very well-written, and, I think, >confirmative of the view which states that there can be no practise. >In fact, right near the beginning, Karunadasa states: > >"The Buddha had taught that to see the world correctly is to see - not >persons and substances - but bare phenomena (suddhadhamma)arising and >perishing in accordance with their conditions." > I would rather say: 'to see the world as it actually is'. It is not a matter of seeing things in a particular way, but of developing direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma. As understanding grows, the world is seem more as it truly is. As regards seeing the world in terms of people and things, we should not forget that the arahant still thinks in terms of people and things (he couldn't function in the world if he didn't). But he has no misconception about the true nature of things. >"Suddha," appears to mean "clean, pure, purified, simple, mere, >unmixed" according to the PTS PED. Karundadasa was introducing his >own topic, and was not writing about bare phenomena, per se, but the >statement seems relevant. What has to be in place in order for an >experience of "bare phenomena arising and perishing according to their >conditions?" > The direct experience of "bare phenomena arising and perishing according to their conditions" would be an advanced stage of the development of insight, I believe. >I see where the word "meditation" is used when "bhaavanaa" is meant. >Most seem to consider "meditation" to be something one can do. But >the term "meditation" is also said to be a rather crude or inexact >rendering of bhaavanaa. > >Nyanatiloka defines bhaavanaa as "mental development, literally >calling into existence." The PTS PED defines it as "dwelling, sphere, >world, realm." I wonder about the sense implied by such words as >"sphere" or "realm" or phrases "calling into existence." There is, at >least in the use of the verb "calling," an implied sort of act. > >Nyanatiloka goes on to note that there are two kinds of bhaavanaa: >the development of tranquility (samatha-bhaavanaa) and the development >of insight (vipassana-bhaavanaa). Here in the Forum I more often read >where formal "meditation" is considered to be about sitting and >jhaana. Satipa.t.thaana is not often referred to as meditation, yet >it is a kind of bhaavanaa, is it not (vipassana-bhaavanaa)? > > Well I certainly I understand satipatthana to be vipassana bhavana, but this has been the subject of some debate lately (some members disagree). To my way of thinking, there is no good reason to translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation', since the literal meaning 'development' is fine and does not carry the implication of a method, technique or special practice. But I'm afraid 'meditation' is here to stay, as far as the available translations are concerned. >This is where your earlier point comes to mind. The perfection of the >jhaanas (samatha-bhaavanaa) leads to a rebirth in the Brahma realms. >This would accord with the sense of bhaavanaa as realm or sphere. I >can see where an acceptance of the literality of rebirth might be >helpful in order to accept that these two kinds of bhaavanaa are truly >different. There would be a one-to-one correlation between the jhaana > realm of samatha-bhaavanaa, and the Brahma realms. > >I don't quite see the same for vipassana-bhaavaana, but what I do see >is that it is bhaavanaa. I accept that the depth of anatta does mean >that there is no one to practise. > I don't think the meaning of bhavana as realm or plane has anything to do with samatha/vipassana bhavana. Just development ('making become'). You may find, as I have found, that ideas about practice, or about doing something special, continue to arise over the years in one form or another, perhaps in more subtle ways, since the tendency is deeply rooted. Who knows what tendencies will hold sway in the future? >I'll stop. This is likely all >confused since I was coming and going while doing other things. Can >you offer any clarifications or corrections to these things I'm trying >to say? > >Anyway, thanks for the chance to discuss! > > Same here, Scott. Jon #61822 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Dependent Origination ... And being outrageous jwromeijn Hallo Jon, Herman, Andrew, all Jon, I forgot to give a reaction to your question: " but I don't think I've seen DO described as as an explanation of a causal process within a moment. I'm not sure what that means exactly." First with a quoute of mrs Sujin in "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" "The Buddha explained the Dhamma by different methods, for example, by way of the four paramattha dhammas, by way of the four noble Truths or by way of the "Dependent Origination". These different methods concern the dhammas that occur at each moment, also now, at this very moment." Second referring to a text of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu who explained that "Dependent arising is a phenomenon that lasts an instant; it is impermanent", and even states that the 'three lifetimes' interpretation of D.O. is wrong (I only state that it's not the only way DO can be applicated) He continues with: "The method of explaining a process of dependent arising as encompassing three lifetimes can be traced back partly to Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga [The Path of Purification]." …. "Because Buddhaghosa's essay does not corroborate with the tenets of the Pali suttas, such as the Kalama Sutta, I, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, like a puny insect that is trying to topple a tree or stop a moving vehicle, must depend on my intelligence to comment on Buddhaghosa. Although people will find my effort outrageous, as a Buddhist, I am quite satisfied with what I am doing because I am introducing the right theory to the teaching of the doctrine of dependent origination, the core of Buddhism." ( www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/index.html and www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/index2.html ) When rereading that I thought at the term 'outrageous' in a discussion between Herman and Andrew. I'm sorry for Herman but Buddhadasa wins the first prize for being outrageous. Metta Joop #61823 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna ashkenn2k Hi Mateesha > > M: Having the right view that there is this life and the next, > belongs to mundane right view according to the mahacattasarica > sutta. Right view is an aspect of Panna. But no one in his or her > right mind would call that belief vipassana. Besides I fail to see the relanence of your question in the context of what we were talking. Can you clarify more please? k: Right mind is only possible with right view, all mundane path starts with mundane right view. Right view is the knowledge of suffering, the arising, the cessation and path leading to the cessation of suffering. If vipassana does not lead to the cessation of suffering, then why learn it then? If panna is not the knowing what is suffering, then how would one define panna? > M: But since animals arent arahaths and so arent a lot of humans, > you might want to try to understand what I meant by SEEing. You might have traffic noise now in the background, of which you > are barely aware. If you focus on it, you will be able to distinguish between different types of vehicles. If you focus harder you will hear acceleration, you will hear constant changing of that noise. If you persue this further you will hear traffic noise arising, changing and passing away. What I meant by seeing, was just that type of intense experiencing. If you focus the characteristics of what you are focusing on become clearer -acceleration /moving away moving closer for example. If you persists you start seeing repetitive patterns in what is being experienced. You begin to understand that all sounds are impermanent. This is why continued mindfulness is required, as I have quoted from the suttas. Suttas cleary say the with the development of the noble eightfold path, samatha and vipassana also develop. k: this is interesting, so now if I suddenly knock my head on a wall and there is intense feeling of pain, is that focusing of the intense pain call what you describe as "SEEING". Does that mean I keep knocking my head and focus on it I will be "SEEING"? Is it panna that cause us to enlighten or intense experience? And isn't panna the understanding of suffering, so why so there be intense experiencing. Do you mean we need to be in intense observation in order to understand that in fact suffering is there. there is suffering in formations, there is suffering in rupa due to hunger or molestation, wind etc, there is conceal suffering like fever etc, there is suffering in pleasantaries due to suffering in change etc > You say it is not the moment to moment that matters. You look > definitions of panna in the suttas, moment to moment is part of the > defintion. Moment to moment arising and passing away is simply what cannot be experienced from a book, but mindfulness can show you > just that. > The understanding of tilkkana is indeed what matters. That is just > what arising and passing away shows. You dont have to take it on > faith just because a dhamma book says it, you can 'see' it for > yourself. It is sandittiko, direct seeing, from this 'fathom long > body'. k: mindfulness is not panna, please do not confuse it. Mindfulness will arise with panna as the root and not the other way round. > > M: You might want to focus on that sutta little more. You will see > that it clearly says that right mindfulness gives rise to right > concentration. Each preceeding step gives rise to the latter, one > after that other, and not together as some have assumed (there is > no evidence in the suttas that these arise together at the same time). k: you forgotten that right view must come first. What I am saying if there is no right view, there wont be any right mindfullness or right concentration. > > > Panna in the form of Right view is indeed the forerunner of the > eightfold path, but then 8th step is samma samadhi which gives rise > > to yatabutanana. So what is this panna-->samadhi-->panna? It is a > positive feedback loop (sutta quote by Howards recently) which > grows > stronger and 'climbs up upon itself'. So right view is also > developed more and more. The right view of a putajjana (mundane) is > different from that of an ariya, but both are right views. You > might want to see what is the forerunner to right view - it is Saddha. what is the forerunner to that? it is hearing and understanding the> dhamma. what is the forerunner to that? it is a good friend bringing you to a dhamma teacher. The line stretches on and on.. (these are in the suttas) k: Yup that is why saddha and good friends and good dhamma teacher are important, they help in the path, they lead first to right view and not to right mindfullness or right concentration. > > > > > M: Excellent. You have found many suttas which talk of many ways in > which concentration might arise. Are you saying that these are all instances of panna giving rise to samadhi? When I talk of panna I mean tilakkana, not simply knowing that one has saddha etc as > mentioned above. If that were the case everyone has panna. Anyone > can know they have faith. When you are focused in samatha you will > know your oject of meditation very well naturally as in your last > quote. That is simply not being brain dead. That is not panna in my > book. k: Yup there are instances of panna, see < part have been given up, expelled, released, abandoned and > relinquished by > me,>> if there is no panna where is the imperfections going to be eradicated. > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things >as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it > actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... > I think it is clear that certain amount of samadhi is required for > panna of the type which arises from direct experiencing, perhaps > not for the book knowledge type or very weak types. If you want to experience directly, this samadhi needs to be developed by various means. k: samadhi of this type is for those with panna. It is not possible for those without panna. If jhanas could lead to enlightment, those teachers who taught Buddha before he was a buddha would have gain enlightement. Buddha already attained the 8 jhanas before he attain enlightement, MN 26, The Noble Search <<15......"Friend Kalama, I want to lead the holy life in this Dhamma and Disciplne.......... Thus Klarama, my teacher, placed me, his pupil on an equal footing with himself and awarded me the highest honour. But it occured to me: This Dhamma does not lead to dischantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge to enlightement, to Nibbana, but only appearance in the base of nothingness. Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left 16....I went to Uddaka Ramaputta and said to him: 'Friend, I want to lead the holy life in this Dhamma and Discipline....... Thus Uddaka Rmaputta, my companion in the holy life placed me in the position of a teacher and accord me the highest honour. But it occured to me: This Dhamma does not lead to dischantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge to enlightement, to Nibbana, but only appearance in the base of neither-preception-nor-non-preception. Not being satisfied with that Dhamma, disappointed with it, I left.>> > M: You should try cut and paste. If you look at the end of that > sutta you will see:> > "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be > tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And > when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow > that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be > tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is > not-self. -MN 48 > M: You are not going to see any arising and passing away just from > book knowledge. To see that, you need constant mindfulness. All the > components in the sutta above this can be directly experienced. If > you believe that there is no self just because the book says it, > you might as well believe that there is a God as well. These things can be and need to be personally verified - that is the spirit of buddhism. k: Arising and falling is not mindfullness. It is the nature of all dhammas, that is impermanence. Simply put, whatever is impermanece is painful since subject to change, this cannot be considered to be me or I or myself. The rising and falling leads to the knowledge of suffering :-). You dont need mindfullnes to see the rise and fall because it is natural process. It is panna that sees suffering and not mindfullness. MIndfullness only act as a foundation for the panna which is the root to good deeper into the earth of wisdom. Ignorance is the concealment of suffering whereas panna is the knowledge of suffering. Do you see Buddha said mindfullness as the knowledge of suffering? Cheers Ken O #61824 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman ashkenn2k Hi Herman > As for your apology, I am not an idiot. There is a past, you know, > and a future. Suffice it to say that serial wife beaters also > apologise, serially. Its part of the game. > k: I cant help laughing on the way you put it. :-) Cheers Ken O #61825 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Herman, and Scott) - In a message dated 7/25/06 2:17:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Herman, > > So, I wouldn't take the silence personally. > > > >Metta, > >James > > > > I forgot to add a ps.: I read your suggestion to Scott that he put his > children up for adoption and I thought it was very offensive and > bizarre. To his credit, I see that he responded in a disarming way. > If you had written the same thing to me about my kids I would have > told you to shove it. > > > ========================== Thank you for pointing this out, James. :-) Herman's was a "modest proposal" a la Swift. And like Swift's it was of course, intentionally "outrageous" though not, I believe, intentionally offensive. Scott, it would seem, and you as well, of course, saw it for the manner in which it was intended, which, was certainly fortuitous, as seeing things as intended doesn't always happen. Your pointing out to Herman and others how easy it can be to cause offense when offense is not intended is a very useful postscript to your previous excellent peace-making post. I would very much like to use this as an opportunity to point out to the list a few observations of mine: 1) All of us here on DSG, without exception, are good and kind people, ranging, I'd say, from merely good to superbly kind. 2) Despite our devotion to the Dhamma and the unusual degree of understanding that we have of it, we cling to views, and we take ourselves very, very seriously, being bogged down in ego. That's because we are just plain human beings, and neither devas not ariyans. 3) We, each of us, take our opinions and the expression of them, as pure elixer of the gods! LOL! But, in fact, nothing that we say here (including these observations of mine), and none of our oh-so-great deeds will last all that long in memory, and we ourselves will be quickly forgotten except by a few not so long after our death! So, IMO, we should "get real", calm down, take it easy, "rest in piece" while still alive, and love each other as good friends in the Dhamma. Of all the blessings of existence that are open to us as we actually are right now, and not as we grandiosely envision ourselves in out Buddhist dreams of ariyan-hood, the greatest is the blessing of love and friendship. With metta, Howard P.S. Please forgive me if my "observations" above, are themselves a bit grandiose and pontificating! (I was just taking my "best shot" at saying what I really think.) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #61826 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand you, Ken. Vedana is one sort of operation > and sa~n~na another sort - so why would they not be distinguished when observed? Different activities are not properly observed as the same. Likewise, hardness and sound are different types of objects of consciousness, and are experienced as different. I do not maintain that all experienced phenomena are the same. I > really don't follow you. > --------------------------------------- > > > > > Anatta is not about non substantalism, anatta is about non-self. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Substance is "that which stands under" - it is the alleged > underlying core or essence of something. Anatta is very much about the lack of substance. What do you think a "soul" or "self" in the empirical person is intended to be? It is an alleged underlying, inherent core. That depends on what sort of existence you intend. Dhammas do exist, but they do so as phenomena lacking corresponding noumena. They are mere conditioned elements of experirnce. They exist as contingent, dependent phenomena, and only so. They lack self-existence. They all lack a core of own-being and > identity. They all lack self. They all lack substance. > ---------------------------------------- k: Buddha put it very clearly, anatta is the not me, not I and not myself and it is not about lack of substance. What you said they all lack self is right but Buddha never said they lack substance. We cannot denied existence and existence is not just mere experience, there must be characteristic of dhamma to experience to differentiate. If this dhamma does not have characteristic to be differentiated, how do one's experience be differentiated. One cannot experience hardness without the dhamma that is an object is of hardness likewise for temperature etc > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > > BTW, the philosophical notion of substance, the term literally meaning "standing under", is, as given in the Wikipedia article, "that element of an object without which it would not exist, or what exists only by itself (causa sui)." k: Are we using dhamma terms describe by Buddha with the omnipresicent wisdom or terms that describe by other philiphosophical masters. A dhamma can be distinguished by its characteristics, as what you said "Likewise, hardness and sound are different types of objects of consciousness, and are experienced as different" does that mean this is substanlism? Cheers Ken O #61827 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/25/06 11:15:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't understand you, Ken. Vedana is one sort of operation > >and sa~n~na another sort - so why would they not be distinguished > when observed? Different activities are not properly observed as the > same. Likewise, hardness and sound are different types of objects of > consciousness, and are experienced as different. I do not maintain > that all experienced phenomena are the same. I > >really don't follow you. > >--------------------------------------- > > > >> > >>Anatta is not about non substantalism, anatta is about non-self. > > > > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Substance is "that which stands under" - it is the alleged > >underlying core or essence of something. Anatta is very much about > the lack of substance. What do you think a "soul" or "self" in the > empirical person is intended to be? It is an alleged underlying, > inherent core. That depends on what sort of existence you intend. > Dhammas do exist, but they do so as phenomena lacking corresponding > noumena. They are mere conditioned elements of experirnce. They exist > as contingent, dependent phenomena, and only so. They lack > self-existence. They all lack a core of own-being and > >identity. They all lack self. They all lack substance. > > >---------------------------------------- > > k: Buddha put it very clearly, anatta is the not me, not I and not > myself and it is not about lack of substance. What you said they all > lack self is right but Buddha never said they lack substance. > -------------------------------------- Howard: The following is from the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata, a teaching of the Buddha I believe: "He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin." Also, there is the following from the Phena Sutta (with corresponding statements for the other four khandhas besides form): "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?" ---------------------------------------------- We> > cannot denied existence and existence is not just mere experience, > there must be characteristic of dhamma to experience to > differentiate. If this dhamma does not have characteristic to be > differentiated, how do one's experience be differentiated. One > cannot experience hardness without the dhamma that is an object is of > hardness likewise for temperature etc ------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, Ken - you conceive of hardess as something existing on its own, independently of being experienced, a rupa independent of nama. Where do you suppose such a thing resides? And what is the basis for assuming its existence?. The hardness that is felt is known as a fact. It is an element of experience. An unobserved hardness is, per force, unobserved and merely hypothesized. The hardness sensation, however, is an obseved reality. Are there two kinds of hardness rupa, 1) the sensation, and 2) the "external hardness" that causes the hardness sensation? From the Bahiya Sutta there is the following in reply to Bahiya's request to be taught the Dhamma: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself." Admittedly, there is more than one way to understand this, but I understand this as saying that one should apprehend what is experienced as mere experience, imposing nothing further and making no assumptions as to underlying something-or-other, either in known or in knowing. -------------------------------------------- > > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > > BTW, the philosophical notion of substance, the > term literally meaning "standing under", is, as given in the > Wikipedia article, "that element of an object without which it would > not exist, or what exists only by itself (causa sui)." > > k: Are we using dhamma terms describe by Buddha with the > omnipresicent wisdom or terms that describe by other philiphosophical > masters. -------------------------------------- Howard: What I am doing is explaining to you what I meant by 'substance'. If I don't define my terms, then no coherent conversation is possible. You say that the Dhamma is not about substance (despite the sutta quotes above to the contrary), and your saying that must mean that 'substance' means something to you. If we are not talking about the same thing, the conversation is meaningless. That is why I gave a definition of 'substance'. -------------------------------------- > > A dhamma can be distinguished by its characteristics, as what you > said "Likewise, hardness and sound are different types of objects of > consciousness, and are experienced as different" does that mean > this is substanlism? ------------------------------------- Howard: I answered that before. The answer hasn't changed. It remains "No". ------------------------------------ > > > Cheers > Ken O ====================== With metta, Howard #61828 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Azita makes a comment about how > there seems to be more and more rot of various kinds in the mind (not her > words) and K.Sujin says that this is good, because it shows the growth of > understanding when we see more and more wrong view and other 'pollutions' > of all kinds. I think you'll agree with that at least. Yes, I would fully agree with that!! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James #61829 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:57 am Subject: Re: What did Sarah say to Betty? philofillet Hi Sarah > ... > S: What you say is true as we all know. But it wasn't along the lines of > what I said. I'll leave you guessing, but can I give a clue as I know you > have a penchant for intrigues? Should we have a prize for the winner? Yes please. How about an all-expenses paid trip to Bangkok in January? Or control over the button that allows you to delete posts? That would be fun. > Clue no 1: It wasn't anything K.Sujin would ever, ever say:-) Interesting. Give me a couple of days. Phil #61830 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:06 am Subject: Re: Q. Dependent Origination ... And being outrageous nichiconn dear Joop, J: First with a quoute of mrs Sujin in "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" "The Buddha explained the Dhamma by different methods, for example, by way of the four paramattha dhammas, by way of the four noble Truths or by way of the "Dependent Origination". These different methods concern the dhammas that occur at each moment, also now, at this very moment." C: Just another quote for you. From "The Guide to Conditional Relations", which btw, is neither the venerable Buddhaghosa nor, strictly speaking, Commentarial, but our good friend Naarada: <<2. THE THREE METHODS OF TEACHING ON CAUSE AND EFFECT There are three methods of teaching on cause and effect, namely: (1) Noble Truths method, (2) Dependent Origination method and (3) Conditional Relations method. (1) Noble Truths Method Here craving, Origin Truth, is the cause and Suffering Truth is the effect. See Kindred Sayings (K.S.) III, p.30: 'He who takes delight, brethren, in body, feeling, perception, the activities, consciousness, ... is not released from suffering.' Thus, if there is the cause - the delight in the five aggregates which is craving - Origin Truth, then the effect, Suffering Truth - which consists of all kinds of suffering - will take place. When viewed with the eye of Truth Knowledge (sacca-~naa.na) and Insight Knowledge (vipassanaa-~naa.na), all the aggregates in the three planes of existence are all suffering. The common worldling cannot lay down this burden of suffering, so all kinds of peril and suffering have to be endured. Only when this burden of suffering is completely laid down will there be freedom from all peril and suffering and true happiness thereby attained. See Burden Sutta, KS III, p24. Again, the Noble Eightfold Path, which consists of Right Understanding and the rest, is Path Truth. This is the cause of release or deliverance, Nibbaana, Cessation Truth, which is the effect. Since there are different kinds of cessation, that which is Cessation Truth needs to be explained. The cessation of craving is due to: (1) its arising on account of conditions and then ceasing. This is known as cessation after arising (uppanna nirodha); (2) its non-arising because the conditions for its arising are absent. This is known as cessation without arising (anuppanna-nirodha). Of the latter, there are five types, namely: (i) Cessation by the Opposite (tada'nga-nirodha). Craving does not arise at the moment when great faultless consciousness arises; (ii) Cessation by Represssion (vikhambhana-nirodha). Craving ceases for some time when lofty faultless consciousness arises; (iii) Cessation by Destruction (samucceda-nirodha). Craving is eradicated when Path-consciousness arises; (iv) Cessation by Tranquilisation (pa.tippassaddhi-nirodha). Craving which, after eradication, ceases forever when Fruition-consciousness arises; (v) Cessation by Deliverance (nissara.na-nirodha). This is Nibbaana. The third and fourth types bring about final cessation of craving so that it does not arise again. They are not like the fifth type which is permanent deliverance from craving. This is Nibbaana, Cessation Truth. This explains the Noble Truths method of teaching on cause and effect. (2) Dependent Origination Method Dependent Origination is the teaching about all that happens in one existence. Therefore, it teaches about: (i) the causes for coming into this present existence. These are ignorance and formations of past existences; (ii) the causes for the change to another existence. This is kamma-becoming which brings about birth, decay and death in another existence; (iii) the present existence. These are consciousness, mentality-materiality, six bases, contact, feeling, craving and attachment. Just as the taste of water in the ocean can be known by tasting a drop of water in it, so also, what happens in each and every existence can be known when everything that happens in one existence is known. In this Dependent Origination, the primary cause of the round of rebirths is ignorance. And so the causes and effects are here expounded in this manner: Ignorance is the cause and formations are the effect and so on. (3) Conditional Relations Method In the Conditional Relations method all the states are treated with reference to 24 conditions to show how the causes and their effects are related. Here it is expounded that such-and-such a state, as cause, is related to such-and-such a state, as effect, by such-and-such conditioning force. NOTE: The cause and effect expounded in these three methods of teaching must be considered separately, each in its own way. If they are taken together and any inter-relation between them is sought there will be doubt and perplexity. This is illustrated by the following examples: (i) Take the case of feeling and craving. In the Noble Truths method, craving, Origin Truth, is the cause, and feeling, as Suffering Truth, is the effect. But in the Dependent Origination method, feeling is the cause and craving is the effect; (ii) Take the case of visible object and craving. In the Conditional Relations method when there is craving for visible object, visible object, the conditioning state of object condition, is the cause, and craving, the conditioned state, is the effect. But in the Noble Truths method, craving, Origin Truth, is the cause, and visible object, Suffering Truth, is the effect. Thus the three methods of teaching must be understood so as to be clear as to which method is applicable in any particular case of cause and effect. 3. THE RUDIMENTS OF CONDITIONAL RELATIONS One who is desirous of understanding Conditional Relations must know the conditioning, conditioned and non-conditioned states of the conditions in each of the Triplets, Couplets and their combinations. For these are the things that are dealt with in the 24 divisions of P.th. They are the rudiments of Conditional Relations which must first be learnt and thoroughly digested - just as one has to learn and digest the alphabet first in order to learn a language. Thus all the methods and explanations provided in this Guide must, of necessity, deal with these states. So, however clearly and precisely the methods are described and explanations given, it will not be easy to acquire knowledge of Conditional Relations if these states are not known. But if they are known, this subject will be readily grasped. Each of the 129,232 P.th. sections deals first with the conditions concerned (i.e. Enumeration of Conditions) and the conditioning and conditioned states, neither too brief nor too detailed (ie Analytical Exposition), of those conditions. Therefore, to help the reader to understand the Faultless Triplet section, which is the first P.th section, brief explanations of the 24 conditions concerned, enumerated in Chapter I of CR, p1, are given below, and later, an explanation of the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions, see items 1-24 in Chapter II, pp2-12. The definitions of the terms involved are given in the Intro. to CR, pp.xi-xiii. >> peace, connie #61831 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:06 am Subject: Not taking a footing and not exerting nichiconn dogimo, Herman! thank you for inspiring Scott to consider doing the unnatural feeling thing and give up the children. i'm considering putting in a bid as it seems he might want some formal payment, but i wonder how long it might take for him to really let go. meanwhile, i'll just add the following, from The All-Embracing Net of Views (or just Embracing, as I like to call it) to my little collection of kidstories. << 47. THERE ARE, BHIKKHUS, CERTAIN GODS CALLED 'CORRUPTED BY MIND' (manopadosika) CY: They are corrupted, ie destroyed, by mind. SUB CY: By a mind corrupted through an envious nature. Or the meaning can be understood as mental corruptions; ie the corruption of the mind by jealousy is the cause of their destruction, thus they are 'corrupted by mind'. CY: These are the Caatumahaaraajika gods. One young god amont these, it is told, wishing to celebrate a festival, set out by chariot on the roadway along with his retinue. Another of those gods, going out for a walk, saw the first one riding ahead of him. He became angry and exclaimed: "That miserable wretch! There he is going along puffed up with rapture to the bursting point, as if he had never seen a festival before." The first, turning around and realizing that the other was angry - angry people being easy to recognize - became angry in turn and retorted: "What have you got to do with me, you hot-headed fellow? My prosperity was gained entirely by my own meritorious works. It has nothing to do with you!" Now if one of these gods gets angry, but the other remains unangered, the latter protects the former (from passing away). But if both get angry, the anger of one will becomethe condition for the anger of the other, and both will pass away with their harems weeping. This is the fixed law (dhammataa). SUB CY: If one remains unangered, the anger of the other, not getting any fuel, will arise for onlyone turn and then subside. It will become extinguished like fire immersed in water, and will not be able to cause his death. But if both get angry, the anger of each will grow stronger and stronger, intensifying the anger of the other, and become fierce in its attacks, capable of consuming the support (of the vital processes). Then their anger will burn up the heart-base (hadayavatthu) and destroy their extremely delicate material body. Subsequently, the entire individual form will disappear. "The fixed law": the purport is that their passing away from that plane is due to the delicacy of their material bodies and the strength of their arisen anger, as well as to the specific nature of their material and immaterial dhammas. >> peace, connie #61832 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:14 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 495- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(f) matheesha333 Hi Sarah, >S: Ignorance is called the "near enemy" of equanimity, because one > may think that there is equanimity when there is actually ignorance. > Its far enemies are greed and resentment. When there is attachment > or aversion there cannot be equanimity at the same time. M: I heard that there was type of equanimity based on avijja and another based on panna. Any thoughts about this? metta Matheesha ps- what is the meaning of Tatramajjhatataa? Isn't equanimity upekkha? #61833 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Ken,(and Jon) > > > > M: Having the right view that there is this life and the next, > > belongs to mundane right view according to the mahacattasarica > > sutta. Right view is an aspect of Panna. But no one in his or her > > right mind would call that belief vipassana. Besides I fail to see > the relanence of your question in the context of what we were > talking. Can you clarify more please? > > > k: Right mind is only possible with right view, all mundane path > starts with mundane right view. Right view is the knowledge of > suffering, the arising, the cessation and path leading to the > cessation of suffering. If vipassana does not lead to the cessation > of suffering, then why learn it then? If panna is not the knowing > what is suffering, then how would one define panna? > M: I have now quoted several sutta saying that panna is for the concentrated and not for the un-concentrated. Your beliefs and understanding might not agree with that. I understand it is difficult when the two dont match. What you wish to do with that is up to you. I will not discuss the matter further. If you like to you can read what has already been posted. > > M: But since animals arent arahaths and so arent a lot of humans, > > you might want to try to understand what I meant by SEEing. > You might have traffic noise now in the background, of which you > > are barely aware. If you focus on it, you will be able to > distinguish between different types of vehicles. If you focus harder > you will hear acceleration, you will hear constant changing of that > noise. If you persue this further you will hear traffic noise > arising, changing and passing away. What I meant by seeing, was just > that type of intense experiencing. If you focus the characteristics > of what you are focusing on become clearer -acceleration /moving > away moving closer for example. If you persists you start seeing > repetitive patterns in what is being experienced. You begin to > understand that all sounds are impermanent. This is why continued > mindfulness is required, as I have quoted from the suttas. Suttas > cleary say the with the development of the noble eightfold path, > samatha and vipassana also develop. > > k: this is interesting, so now if I suddenly knock my head on a wall > and there is intense feeling of pain, is that focusing of the intense > pain call what you describe as "SEEING". Does that mean I keep > knocking my head and focus on it I will be "SEEING"? Is it panna > that cause us to enlighten or intense experience? And isn't panna > the understanding of suffering, so why so there be intense > experiencing. Do you mean we need to be in intense observation in > order to understand that in fact suffering is there. there is > suffering in formations, there is suffering in rupa due to hunger or > molestation, wind etc, there is conceal suffering like fever etc, > there is suffering in pleasantaries due to suffering in change etc > M: My dear Ken. Your idea of suffering, everyman on earth has had. It is nothing new to buddhism. The Buddhist bit is when it say '...in short the five aggregates are suffering'. This is not a simple summary. If you can see each aggragate arising and passing away, you realise that due to it's impermanence, and when you keep on seeing the world around you which you thought was solid, breaking up infront of your eyes, everything you wanted to grasp now turning out to be a ungraspable mirage, you realise it has the characteristic of dukkha. To see that every moment is suffering, you need vipassana. Normally you will see that most moments are neutral. But this is simply confusion due to avijja. In vipassana, which is a different, focused, way of experiencing reality, you will see that every moment which arises and passes away is suffering (or better: unsatisfactory - best: dukkha). > > > You say it is not the moment to moment that matters. You look > > definitions of panna in the suttas, moment to moment is part of the > > defintion. Moment to moment arising and passing away is simply > what cannot be experienced from a book, but mindfulness can show you > > just that. > > The understanding of tilkkana is indeed what matters. That is just > > what arising and passing away shows. You dont have to take it on > > faith just because a dhamma book says it, you can 'see' it for > > yourself. It is sandittiko, direct seeing, from this 'fathom long > > body'. > > > k: mindfulness is not panna, please do not confuse it. Mindfulness > will arise with panna as the root and not the other way round. > M: "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness. (from the same sutta) "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually present: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html#sa ti M: The two definitions of sati and panna are very different. Right mindfulness is categorised under concentration, not panna (in the three trainings scheme). So why should someone remain '...focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful..' This does not sound like he is mindful of panna (atleast not of a tilakkana level), does it? He is simply aware of the body. He is ardent. What is there to be ardent about if sati simply arises with panna? Viriya is often cited before sati, saying that it leads to sati (noble eightfold path, five faculties). What is the point in being ardent and having viriya if panna arises with sati anyway? Besides we can give rise to panna by having viriya, it arises when it wishes! But we can give rise to sati with viriya. He is 'alert'. It simply says he is alert - no mention of panna. It would be superflous to talk just about sati in such a detailed manner is all important panna is arising at this very moment. Yet, panna is described seperately in a different manner. 'remains mindful....putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.' Why should he put aside anything? Panna can arise in any instance. Yet the sutta says that something has to be done before we can follow the satipattana. Where is the missing link in our understanding? Panna is a flash and arises suddenly. What requires us to put aside greed and distress is not panna, but sati. More proof that there is prolonged panna (not a just flash here and there) needed to do what is in the satipattana. Abhidhamma is a snapshot view. Does sati exist when panna arises. Of course it does. But what went on before it? If you read the suttas you will find out. It's exactly as it says. It is because he was focused on the body, feelings, mind, dhamma, that insight arose, from direct experiencing. I'm not saying this because I'm speculating, I'm saying it because I know for sure that it works this way! Surely you agree that direct experiencing is required for later developments of panna??? There is also the gradual training of the Buddhas. Before satipattana practice he (having ordained them into a serene lifestyle of a monk) establishes them in virtue which rules out gross defilements arising. He establishes them in moderation in food , which rules out sloth and topor, and less contact with villagers therby reducing the arising of defilements. He establishes them in wakefulness practice - again making them more alert. If you stay in a meditation retreat for 4 days do you know what happens to the mind? It forgets the chatter of the outside world and it settles - there is peace - there is continued mindfulness. This is not just my experience but the experience of many hundreds if not thousands who have gone through the centre where I trained. I trust it more than any commentary because I know beyond a doubt that it happens. It just makes it easier to understand the suttas. > > > > M: You might want to focus on that sutta little more. You will see > > that it clearly says that right mindfulness gives rise to right > > concentration. Each preceeding step gives rise to the latter, one > > after that other, and not together as some have assumed (there is > > no evidence in the suttas that these arise together at the same > time). > > k: you forgotten that right view must come first. What I am saying > if there is no right view, there wont be any right mindfullness or > right concentration. > M: Right view of a mundane person is so rudimentary. You can see it in the MN114. We havent even got to the development of faculties required to go to the next level panna. If you want to send emails to dsg till your dying day, and that is your panna, all I can say is I feel very sorry for you. It is truly your kamma, even though others might try their damndest nothing might come of it. > > > > > > Panna in the form of Right view is indeed the forerunner of the > > eightfold path, but then 8th step is samma samadhi which gives rise > > > > to yatabutanana. So what is this panna-->samadhi-->panna? It is a > > positive feedback loop (sutta quote by Howards recently) which > > grows > > stronger and 'climbs up upon itself'. So right view is also > > developed more and more. The right view of a putajjana (mundane) is > > different from that of an ariya, but both are right views. You > > might want to see what is the forerunner to right view - it is > Saddha. what is the forerunner to that? it is hearing and > understanding the> dhamma. what is the forerunner to that? it is a > good friend bringing you to a dhamma teacher. The line stretches on > and on.. (these are in the suttas) > > k: Yup that is why saddha and good friends and good dhamma teacher > are important, they help in the path, they lead first to right view > and not to right mindfullness or right concentration. > > > > > > > > > M: Excellent. You have found many suttas which talk of many ways in > > which concentration might arise. Are you saying that these are all > instances of panna giving rise to samadhi? When I talk of panna I > mean tilakkana, not simply knowing that one has saddha etc as > > mentioned above. If that were the case everyone has panna. Anyone > > can know they have faith. When you are focused in samatha you will > > know your oject of meditation very well naturally as in your last > > quote. That is simply not being brain dead. That is not panna in my > > book. > > k: Yup there are instances of panna, see > < > part have been given up, expelled, released, abandoned and > > relinquished by > me,>> if there is no panna where is the > imperfections going to be eradicated. > M: I'm sorry Ken. Sadda can arise in anyone, not just someone with panna ..and he can be happy about it. > > > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > >as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it > > actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that > 'The eye is inconstant'... > > > I think it is clear that certain amount of samadhi is required for > > panna of the type which arises from direct experiencing, perhaps > > not for the book knowledge type or very weak types. If you want to > experience directly, this samadhi needs to be developed by various > means. > > k: samadhi of this type is for those with panna. It is not possible > for those without panna. If jhanas could lead to enlightment, those > teachers who taught Buddha before he was a buddha would have gain > enlightement. > M: Buddha clearly said 'panna is for those who are concentrated, not for those who are not'. Not concentration is for those with panna and not for those without. Anyone can have concentration, like you rightfully mentioned - the buddhas previous teachers. Why werent they able to give rise to panna then? Did they not believe in mother and father? Did they not belive in kamma? Did they not believe there were rightfully enlightened being? I suspect it is not that at all. Many hindus today might just have such mundane right view. The difference is that they simply did not look at the world through vipassana, satipattana. Or perhaps to rephrase - they did not have the right view of how satipattana was practiced. They couldnt get past the conventional booky discussy wisdom everyone had. > > M: You should try cut and paste. If you look at the end of that > > sutta you will see:> > > "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be > > tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And > > when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow > > that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be > > tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is > > not-self. -MN 48 > > M: You are not going to see any arising and passing away just from > > book knowledge. To see that, you need constant mindfulness. All the > > components in the sutta above this can be directly experienced. If > > you believe that there is no self just because the book says it, > > you might as well believe that there is a God as well. These > things can be and need to be personally verified - that is the spirit > of buddhism. > > k: Arising and falling is not mindfullness. It is the nature of all > dhammas, that is impermanence. Simply put, whatever is impermanece is > painful since subject to change, this cannot be considered to be me > or I or myself. The rising and falling leads to the knowledge of > suffering :-). You dont need mindfullnes to see the rise and fall > because it is natural process. It is panna that sees suffering and > not mindfullness. MIndfullness only act as a foundation for the > panna which is the root to good deeper into the earth of wisdom. > > Ignorance is the concealment of suffering whereas panna is the > knowledge of suffering. Do you see Buddha said mindfullness as the > knowledge of suffering? M: :) I'm glad that you are glad (' :-)' )about your understanding. No, arising passing away can be experienced only with focused, ardent sati, and understanding that everything has that charactersitic, belongs under the rubric of panna (not panna understands it). Understanding is understanding. There isnt a little critter that scurries and along and 'does it'. You feel that arising and passing away is something you can already see in nature. My friend - so can all other humans. Why are you special as a buddhist? You have access to insight into methods of satipattana which which will blow away any notions you might have about nature. You can watch it take apart realty (udaya-vyaya), understand it's true nature (yatabhuta nana) and see it reject it completely (nibbida). What have you got to loose? What have you got to gain? with metta Matheesha #61834 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:19 pm Subject: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: I find myself > > thinking things like "Oh, I hope he/she really gets what he/she > > deserves! I hope that karma catches up to that person for their > > evil actions." Then I have to catch myself and realize that I am > > wishing for bad things to happen to someone, AND THAT ISN'T GOOD! > .... > S: It's not good, but at least you're honest and recognise it for what it > is. Kusala and akusala when we think of others all day long. Hmmm...I thought it wasn't good either, but then today I found this teaching of the Buddha: "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should direct your thoughts to the fact of his being the product of his actions: 'This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.' Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.than.html What do you make of that? Is it ill-will to keep in mind the negative karma that one will receive? Or is it a way to combat ill- will and hatred? I'm still unsure about this. Metta, James #61835 From: Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:21 am Subject: what Sarah said to Betty in Kashmir mombetty2004 Dear Phil and Sarah, Sarah, you had asked me to write about our experiences in India and probably had given up on my ever doing it. But the memory of it has returned and so I'll try and explain as best I can. After travelling to the holy places in India, the tour agency arranged a side trip to Kashmir where we stayed in house boats on Dal Lake. Tremendous dosa arose for me over that side trip: it was far too cold, the houseboats were old and musty, the food was tasteless, the hawkers never gave us a moment's peace, there was nothing of beauty to see and the guides were surly. To make matters worse, I complained bitterly to anyone I thought would listen; the trip was a total waste. Or so "I" thought. I was on the brink of tears when Sarah took me aside. While I don't remember her exact words, the real importance is that they provided conditions for "right thought" to arise about the dhammas/realities that were arising and falling away during that trip. It was a wonderful lesson on the nature of dosa/aksusala and of the idea of a "self" that is fed and "nourished" by akusala. Once "right thinking" arose (not yet the "right thought" of the 8 Fold Path), dosa had far less chance to arise, and on the conventional level, the rest of the trip went better after that. Dosa arose over the various sense objects cognized during that trip: visible object, cold, sounds, tastes, etc. But dosa usually conditions even more dosa to arise, and as the anger and upset grew, the sense of a "self" was further enhanced with the dosa. Such thoughts as: I'm cold, I'm tired, I'm annoyed, I'm angry, I'm hungry for good food, they're treating "me" in a nasty way, etc., dominated "my" thinking and made "me" miserable. And when dosa arises, "right" thought cannot arise at those moments. There were no conditions for "right" thinking to occur, only conditions for more dosa to arise. But then, after Sarah spoke with me, her kind words conditioned "right" thoughts to arise: cold, taste, unpleasant bodily feeling, unpleasant mental feelings, etc. are only dhammas that arise as vipaka (in this case, probably akusala vipaka); they are not self, they are impermanent, they are dukkha. When "right" thought arises, the realiities are "seen" as they really are: just sense objects, just cittas, just cetasikas. Then the anger leaves (for that moment) because there is no attachment when dhammas/realities are seen only as elements that are not "mine". All this happens without a "self that is doing" anything. Everything happens because conditions cause it to happen, nothing else. If, after learning Dhamma, such thoughts arise and are contemplated upon, thought deeply about, this in turn sets up conditions for understanding, insight, to arise at some point, again, depending on conditions. When such understanding does arise, it confirms what one has learned from the Tipitaka, from a good teacher and kalayanamitta, from DSG, as well as other Dhamma sources. Anomodhana to Sarah for "conditioning" "right" thought to arise in Kashmir, and to you, Phil, for jogging my memories, causing further thought about Dhamma. metta, Betty ________________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand mombetty@... tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 #61836 From: Illusion Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:41 pm Subject: Argument on Misconception of God vvhite_illusion Thought of the day... If "God" is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (everywhere), then why did he create the world with imperfections such as world disasters and human defects. If humans can overcome those disasters and defects...such as plastic surgery, if humans can improve this world in which "God" created then would it not imply that humans are more powerful than "God"? -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) #61837 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna ken_aitch Hi Matteesha, Ken O and Jon, I have been enjoying your conversation. ------------ M: > I have now quoted several sutta saying that panna is for the concentrated and not for the un-concentrated. Your beliefs and understanding might not agree with that. I understand it is difficult when the two dont match. What you wish to do with that is up to you. I will not discuss the matter further. ------------- Please reconsider, Matheesha. Whether it is this topic or any other topic at DSG, it is always going to come down to the same question: "Is there a traveller on the Path, or are there only conditioned dhammas?" When there is the idea of calming the mind in preparation for insight, isn't there also the concept of someone who will persist from the present moment to the next? Ken H #61838 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:57 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Sorry for the delay. K: "Firstly, I would like to correct you: the oft examined dichotomy is between formal practice and the Middle Way." Thanks. Is this the "majjhimaa-patipadaa?" The Noble Eightfold Path? K: "I agree that this sutta addresses the dichotomy. However, I don't think it does so any more specifically than do the other suttas. Basically, this is one of many suttas that compare the Dhamma with all the other possible views of the world. As I understand it, striving refers to the extreme of eternity belief, and standing-still refers to the extreme of annihilation belief. If we believe in a self that will be reborn in heaven or in hell then we strive to ensure it will be the former. If we believe in a self that will not be reborn at all, then we don't bother." The paali is (and don't really take this for anything else than me studying in public - corrections desired): "Appati.t.tha.m kvaaha.m aavuso anaayuuha.m oghamatrinti." "appati.t.tha.m" is "not: standing fast or firmly; finding a support in; being established in; fixing oneself to; being supported and the like." "aavuso" is "not: behaving, living, or acting; practising." "anaayuuha.m" is "not: intent upon ; devoted to; busy; eager; active; endeavouring; striving; keen; eager; active; yoked to; connected with; intent upon; devoted to." The sense is, then, "not taking a footing and not exerting" has something to do with somehow avoiding all of the above. And all of the above sounds like the very things one is supposed to have and do! K: "By all conventional standards, it has to be one or the other: if there is a middle way then it has to be some kind of compromise - not too much striving and not too much standing still. But the Middle Way is not a compromise. Therefore, it is profoundly hard to see. Even when it is described at the intellectual level, it remains hard to grasp (or hard to accept)." If I've even come close to getting the sense of the above, then it is truly hard to accept and grasp and very deep. K: "Unable to grasp or accept the Middle Way, most Buddhists forge ahead with conventional practices belonging to eternalist religions. I can't blame them because I did that too, before joining DSG and studying Abhidhamma." Yeah. There are degrees of understanding. These cannot be forced to be otherwise. With loving kindness, Scott. #61839 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:02 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions nichiconn one last time for now, dear Scott, Nimitta is(unlikely) a big brick wall and rather than trying to knock it down with my head, i just hang around awaiting some uplifting understanding. Nina was pursuing a (private?) study of the n-word not so long ago [unless i'm way off my (guess)mark]. in any case, what presents. When the great cloud grants your wish and lightning strikes, I pray it forks off and finds me under the Book of Analysis, too. And as long as there is running but no hiding, i suppose it is ok to discuss black market activities on-list: the earnest agreement check is in the mail. I didn't remember whether you were in Cali or Canada. When i'm heavy handed on the motorpiglet, the kph scale encourages more restraint than the mph, but my favorite way to slow down remains in the balance of no-hands riding. regardless (& in all cirrus-nest) a term (and the rest of the paragraph Embracing p164) respecting future considerations of the youngsters: << Reply: By a figurative application (upacaaravutti). For the word 'extensionist', which occurs in reference to the last two theorists by way of the total (objective domain) of their views (ie the finitude and the infinity of the world) also applies by linguistic convention to the first two theorists individually to each immaterial jhaana, or as the term 'abode of beings' applies to the world. Or else the expression ('finite-infinitizer') was given to them by way of its applicability to the times prior to their adherence. For these theorists, at a time prior to their achievement of such mental concentration, were 'finite-infinitizers' insofaras their reasoning was suspended in b/n both positions, (as they pondered): "Is the world finite, or is it infinite?" But even after they make a definite assumption through their gain of distinction, the older expression is still applied to them.>> unravel that! it must be after the nice little blurb on the carefulness of buddhaspeech, but i didn't find that again. i'm fairly sure i read it while i was still awake, but other than occasioning non-incurring karmic retroactivity, when is it not dreaming? (and might this be the same it that rains?). i was going to say something about not just knowing what to take literally, but see p.xii vol.1 CR, beginning: <> up to 'For instance', eh? pardon my childish delight in our conversation. i'll try to read more and excusing myself further, won't attempt to incur attachments in the minor issues. peace, connie #61840 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:40 pm Subject: Ven. Cunda's Advice buddhatrue Hi All, In light of the recent Herman controversy and the bad feelings it brought out, I want to revisit a sutta which is periodically quoted in this group (for good reason) and following the quote I have some personal comments: On one occasion Ven. Maha Cunda was staying among the Cetis in Sanjatiya. There he addressed the monks, "Friend monks!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded to him. Ven. Maha Cunda said, "Friends, there is the case where Dhamma- devotee monks1 disparage jhana monks, saying, 'These people are absorbed and besorbed in jhana, saying, "We are absorbed, we are absorbed." But why, indeed, are they absorbed? For what purpose are they absorbed? How are they absorbed?' In that, the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. "Then there is the case where jhana monks disparage Dhamma-devotee monks, saying, 'These people say, "We are Dhamma-devotees, we are Dhamma-devotees,' but they are excitable, boisterous, unsteady, mouthy, loose in their talk, muddled in their mindfulness, unalert, uncontentrated, their minds wandering, their senses uncontrolled. Why, indeed, are they Dhamma devotees? For what purpose are they Dhamma devotees? How are they Dhamma devotees?' In that, the jhana monks do not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. "Then there is the case where Dhamma-devotee monks praise only Dhamma-devotee monks, and not jhana monks. In that, the Dhamma- devotee monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. "Then there is the case where jhana monks praise only jhana monks, and not Dhamma-devotee monks. In that, the jhana monks do not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. "Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.2 "And thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being jhana monks, we will speak in praise of Dhamma-devotee monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who penetrate with discernment statements of deep meaning." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html Obviously this sutta was spoken after the paranibbana of the Buddha. During the Buddha's lifetime, this feud wasn't an issue because the Buddha encouraged all of the monks to learn the dhamma and to practice jhana. However, after the Buddha's passing away, it obviously didn't take too long for the sangha to polarize itself into those who study and those who meditate- and they disparaged each other. The monks probably began to follow a path of practice that most suited their personal tastes. Now, Ven. Cunda came up with the perfect solution: each side should recognize the benefits of the other side. Meditators should see the benefits of dhamma study and scholarly monks should see the benefits of meditation. Could this happen in this group? Could we reach a peace in the manner of the one suggested by Ven. Cunda? Unfortunately, the answer is a resounding no. Those who follow the KS teaching believe that no one in this day and age is capable of reaching jhana and that anyone who tries is simply acting out of ego. I am willing to compromise- I see the value of dhamma study and don't fault anyone for not meditating. However, in this group I am not given the same respect or consideration. I am told that I have wrong view; I don't really understand the dhamma; and that my way of practice is not only fruitless but also harmful to myself. There is no reason to continue in a forum where I, and those who also practice meditation, am so entirely rejected. Some say that it isn't possible to have agreement and that there should be debate; that such disagreements encourage one to learn equanimity and detachment…blah, blah, blah. Did Ven. Cunda teach that? Is that how a group of people should get along with each other? No, sorry. There is no excuse or reason for the animosity and constant bickering. Therefore, I have limited my participation more and more in this group and I will completely stop when I get to Taiwan. I may pop in occasionally but it won't be anything like before. If those who follow KS change their minds and begin to speak of the value of meditation practice, like Ven. Cunda taught, then someone let me know and I would be happy to participate again. Metta, James #61841 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:02 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 496- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== If one understands the characteristic of equanimity it can be developed in daily life and condition moments of calm. Sometimes people may be beyond any help, but when we remember that unpleasant results in life they receive are conditioned by kamma, that people are “heirs” to kamma, it will prevent us from being distressed. Sadness about other people’s suffering is not helpful, neither for ourselves nor for others, whereas when there is equanimity we can be of comfort to others. Those who have accumulated conditions for the development of calm to the degree of jhåna can, with the divine abiding of equanimity as meditation subject, attain jhåna(1). *** 1) With this meditation subject the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna can be attained, but not the lower stages. If someone wants to attain jhåna with this subject he should first develop the divine abidings of loving kindness, compassion and sympathetic joy, by means of which the first, second and third stage of jhåna of the fourfold system ( and the fourth stage of the fivefold system) can be attained, but not the highest stage. If he then develops the divine abiding of equanimity he can attain the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna (Vis. IX, 88, 111, 118). ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61842 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:04 am Subject: Re: Q. Dependent Origination ... And being outrageous jwromeijn Dear Connie Thank you for the text. Especially the 'Note' of Narada is important to me: "The cause and effect expounded in these three methods of teaching must be considered separately, each in its own way. If they are taken together and any inter-relation between them is sought there will be doubt and perplexity." This summer I try to understand the Dhamma via the D.O. and it's better not to compare this method to quick with trhe other two: gives confusion (to me) Also confusing, but fascinating is an idea of the british buddhologist Richard Gombrich: In her article `Playing with Fire: The pratityasamutpada from the Perspective of Vedic Thought" Joanna Jurewicz has, to my mind, found a convincing answer to an ancient question. While the general purport of the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination (pratuya-samutpada) has always been understood, there has been almost infinite disagreement among interpreters both ancient and modem about how to understand the details of the chain, and why the links are in that order. Jurewicz has demonstrated that the teaching is formulated (presumably by the Buddha) as a response to Vedic cosmogony not merely in general but also in detail. As is his wont, the Buddha accepts the tenets of his brahmin predecessors only to reinterpret them — one might say, to ironise them. Here the main irony comes from his denial of the fundamental postulate of the Vedic cosmogony, the existence of the ãtman (self). This denial `deprives the Vedic cosmogony of its positive meaning as the successful activity of the Absolute and presents it as a chain of absurd, meaningless changes which could only result in the repeated death of anyone who would reproduce this cosmogonic process in ritual activity and everyday life'. With metta Joop #61843 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:09 am Subject: Joop's Advice (Was: Re: Ven. Cunda's Advice jwromeijn Hallo James, Howard, all That's was not simply a message with a advice but a farewell greeting. And with an important content for us I have made such farewell greetings too (and came back, till now) so I say: I will see I'm not sure you not yet gone but still some remarks The only similarity between the socalled Herman controversy and your theme is that they brought feelings (and perhaps bad ones). I don't agree with your idea "However, in this group I am not given the same respect or consideration. I am told that I have wrong view." First we should not take serious ourselve and not other sentient beings, only have metta and karuna for them. And especially getting respect is not important. And second: many (like me) did like your messages and agreed mainly with them or the least perceived them as triggering thinking. I know some participants got more admiration than others, when something not-nice is for example said to Nina (as Howard did), immediately the defending forces in DSG got active. I notice that mechanism, don't participate on it and think: we are all human. As an another point, some addition to the very positive message of Howard in #61825 One of the problems in DSG is it's family-like culture. In my opinion it's not wise to talk about personal affairs on-list and not at all wise to react on given personal information of others. We (DSG) are not a family, we even are not really personal friends, we are a group having something in common: the Dhamma and a curious mentality about the Dhamma. And as a closing, your remark: "Those who follow the KS teaching believe that no one in this day and age is capable of reaching jhana" I also noticed this pessimism that it's more difficult now than 2500 years ago to awaken (see my message to Jon this week). But this is not especial about jhana and not especial ascribed to KS. So I hope you continue meditation, continue Dhamma-study (also the Mahayana one). And please tell us about your experiences, but not too personal. With metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi All, > > In light of the recent Herman controversy and the bad feelings it > brought out, I want to revisit a sutta which is periodically quoted > in this group (for good reason) and following the quote I have some > personal comments: > > On one occasion Ven. Maha Cunda was staying among the Cetis in > Sanjatiya. There he addressed the monks, "Friend monks!" > "Yes, friend," the monks responded to him. > Ven. Maha Cunda said, "Friends, there is the case where Dhamma- > devotee monks1 disparage jhana monks, saying, 'These people are > absorbed and besorbed in jhana, saying, "We are absorbed, we are > absorbed." But why, indeed, are they absorbed? For what purpose are > they absorbed? How are they absorbed?' In that, the Dhamma-devotee > monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not shine > brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for > the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the > welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. > "Then there is the case where jhana monks disparage Dhamma-devotee > monks, saying, 'These people say, "We are Dhamma-devotees, we are > Dhamma-devotees,' but they are excitable, boisterous, unsteady, > mouthy, loose in their talk, muddled in their mindfulness, unalert, > uncontentrated, their minds wandering, their senses uncontrolled. > Why, indeed, are they Dhamma devotees? For what purpose are they > Dhamma devotees? How are they Dhamma devotees?' In that, the jhana > monks do not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not > shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the > masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, > nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. > "Then there is the case where Dhamma-devotee monks praise only > Dhamma-devotee monks, and not jhana monks. In that, the Dhamma- > devotee monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not > shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the > masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, > nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings. > "Then there is the case where jhana monks praise only jhana monks, > and not Dhamma-devotee monks. In that, the jhana monks do not shine > brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That > is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness > of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & > happiness of human & divine beings. > "Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee > monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you > should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing > people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching > the deathless element with the body.2 > "And thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being jhana monks, > we will speak in praise of Dhamma-devotee monks.' That's how you > should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing > people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who penetrate with > discernment statements of deep meaning." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html > > Obviously this sutta was spoken after the paranibbana of the > Buddha. During the Buddha's lifetime, this feud wasn't an issue > because the Buddha encouraged all of the monks to learn the dhamma > and to practice jhana. However, after the Buddha's passing away, it > obviously didn't take too long for the sangha to polarize itself > into those who study and those who meditate- and they disparaged > each other. The monks probably began to follow a path of practice > that most suited their personal tastes. > > Now, Ven. Cunda came up with the perfect solution: each side should > recognize the benefits of the other side. Meditators should see the > benefits of dhamma study and scholarly monks should see the benefits > of meditation. > > Could this happen in this group? Could we reach a peace in the > manner of the one suggested by Ven. Cunda? Unfortunately, the > answer is a resounding no. Those who follow the KS teaching believe > that no one in this day and age is capable of reaching jhana and > that anyone who tries is simply acting out of ego. I am willing to > compromise- I see the value of dhamma study and don't fault anyone > for not meditating. However, in this group I am not given the same > respect or consideration. I am told that I have wrong view; I don't > really understand the dhamma; and that my way of practice is not > only fruitless but also harmful to myself. > > There is no reason to continue in a forum where I, and those who > also practice meditation, am so entirely rejected. Some say that it > isn't possible to have agreement and that there should be debate; > that such disagreements encourage one to learn equanimity and > detachment…blah, blah, blah. Did Ven. Cunda teach that? Is that > how a group of people should get along with each other? No, sorry. > There is no excuse or reason for the animosity and constant > bickering. > > Therefore, I have limited my participation more and more in this > group and I will completely stop when I get to Taiwan. I may pop in > occasionally but it won't be anything like before. If those who > follow KS change their minds and begin to speak of the value of > meditation practice, like Ven. Cunda taught, then someone let me > know and I would be happy to participate again. > > Metta, > James > #61844 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > "Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee > monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you > should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing > people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching > the deathless element with the body.2 > "And thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being jhana monks, > we will speak in praise of Dhamma-devotee monks.' That's how you > should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing > people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who penetrate with > discernment statements of deep meaning." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html ..... S: Thanks for your thoughtful comments. It's nice to see you quoting suttas again:-) What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the commentary notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples (i.e at least sotapannas). The first group have become enlightened without the development of jhanas and the second group with jhanas. Here are some more detailed comments and notes I gave in this old post (which Christine re-quoted more recently): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33934 >Sarah: When we first read it, we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. We also note how useless bickering and disparaging others are. How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level, for sure! When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'. If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary notes, I think. The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of 'meditators' refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute! From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators' have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) "penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana). So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group have attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the first group this is merely an intellectual approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment should be highly respected.< ***** S: So there were disputes even during the Buddha's life between different groups of ariyan disciples, I think. And so who are we that we could possibly be beyond having disputes of any kind? Any noble or wholesome qualities should be praised and respected and no one has suggested that jhana attainment or the development of samatha should not be included in this. ..... > Obviously this sutta was spoken after the paranibbana of the > Buddha. .... S: I'm not sure about this. I may be wrong, but from memory, Maha Cunda was a brother of Sariputta and an attendant of the Buddha. .... >During the Buddha's lifetime, this feud wasn't an issue > because the Buddha encouraged all of the monks to learn the dhamma > and to practice jhana. However, after the Buddha's passing away, it > obviously didn't take too long for the sangha to polarize itself > into those who study and those who meditate- and they disparaged > each other. The monks probably began to follow a path of practice > that most suited their personal tastes. ..... S: Certainly there were disagreements, sects and schisms during the Buddha's life too. Look at Devadatta for an example. But we are taught to respect the fine qualities of all ariyans, no matter what their inclinations are, no matter whether jhanas are attained or not, no matter whether they live in the forest or not. I'm reminded of the Mahagosinga Sutta, MN 32 in this regard. .... > Now, Ven. Cunda came up with the perfect solution: each side should > recognize the benefits of the other side. Meditators should see the > benefits of dhamma study and scholarly monks should see the benefits > of meditation. .... S: Yes. I'd rephrase it and say that we should see the benefits of insight, whether it be with or without the attainment of jhana as well. Furthermore, we should see the benefits of both samatha and vipassana bhavana, however weak they may be. ..... > There is no reason to continue in a forum where I, and those who > also practice meditation, am so entirely rejected. .... S: I don't think anyone has ever been 'entirely rejected' here:-) Not even partially rejected! Quite the contrary. But, yes, it is a discussion forum and so even the word 'meditation' will be analysed and questioned repeatedly:-). .... > Therefore, I have limited my participation more and more in this > group and I will completely stop when I get to Taiwan. I may pop in > occasionally but it won't be anything like before. If those who > follow KS change their minds and begin to speak of the value of > meditation practice, like Ven. Cunda taught, then someone let me > know and I would be happy to participate again. .... S: I'd be very happy to 'speak of the value of meditation practice, like Ven Cunda taught'. Is my understanding of this the same as yours? Probably not. Should I fake a different understanding? I don't think so. You've been writing many kind and friendly posts recently, James. I've appreciated them and also appreciate the bhavana or mental development in your daily life and practice. But meditation is a very big word which covers a multitude of different mental states, would't you say? Can it all be good or bad? No need to respond if you'd prefer to wait til we meet or prefer to not discuss further. Metta, Sarah ======= #61845 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, I was waiting until you were back which should be around now. I hope you both had a good break. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > I still do not understand:< it's the > nimitta of reality if it's not the moment of realizing the rising and > falling away (or dhammas) .> > Is this right: if the arising and falling away is realized, one does > not know nimitta but the dhamma itself? .... S: I believe that at those moments of insight at that level, it is the characteristics of realities themselves which are directly known. Now the moments of awareness are not so frequent, but at this higher level of insight, the realities are known one after the other precisely. But awareness and understanding do develop and get closer and closer to understanding these characteristics -- like a sliding scale. I believe it's also apparent at this degree of insight that all conditioned dhammas have nimitta and only nibbana is animitta. Meanwhile, it's just theory. I did jot down some other notes which I've misplaced. I'll let you know if I come across anything else which makes sense. Metta, Sarah ======== #61846 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 495- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(f) sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > >S: Ignorance is called the "near enemy" of equanimity, because one > > may think that there is equanimity when there is actually ignorance. > > Its far enemies are greed and resentment. When there is attachment > > or aversion there cannot be equanimity at the same time. > > M: I heard that there was type of equanimity based on avijja and > another based on panna. Any thoughts about this? .... S: Thanks for reading the extract and joining in. When there is ignorance, there is no equanimity. However, upekkha is used with different meanings. For example, upekkha as a brahma vihara and usually translated as equanimimity cannot arise with ignorance. However, upekkha is also used to refer to indifferent feeling and in this case it can arise with ignorance (or attachment). So then we could refer to how 'upekkha can be based on (or accompanying) avijja'. That may be what you have in mind. As for equanimity being based on panna, equanimity (tatramajjhatataa) arises with all wholesome cittas, including those with panna. So yes, whenever panna arises, there is equanimity. When we are referring to the brahma vihara of equanimity (upekkha), there can be panna as in the development of samatha with equanimity as object. Confused? .... > ps- what is the meaning of Tatramajjhatataa? Isn't equanimity upekkha? .... S: Tatramajjhatataa is the name of the cetasika which accompanies all wholesome cittas as I mentioned. However, upekkha is sometimes used as well for the same factor. In the texts such as the Vism, both terms are used (Vism 1V, 156ff and X1V, 153), so it is confusing. Tatramajjhatataa is only used for the sobhana cetasika however, never for the other meaning of upekkha as indifferent feeling. Also, when the brahma vihara is being referred to, I think that upekkha is always used. The different kinds of equanimity are given in the Vism 1V, i56ff ref. Many people get confused on this same detail, so pls ask anything further as it's helpful for us all. I know Nina will also appreciate your questions on this thread. Metta, Sarah ========= #61847 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Sorry for the delay and thanks for your kind replyl J: "Right. As I understand things, only panna can directly 'know' a dhamma, so that the occurrence of mindfulness of a dhamma, but with no panna involved, is not possible." Okay. J: "Right. Mindfulness accompanied by wisdom is a possible arising, but is not something that can be controlled or directed." Okay, as well. J: "The idea of 'no practice' takes a bit of getting used to, but I find it helps to think of the 'development' of understanding as 'growth' of understanding, something that, if the right conditions are in place, happens imperceptiblely but nevertheless inevitably." I've come to appreciate this way of seeing it as well. And I like the word "cultivation" as well, as this relates to growth if one takes the analogy of a seed growing into a plant. The cultivator has no control over the actual growth process animating the seed but can "act" to ensure that conditions for growth are adequate. J: "I would rather say: 'to see the world as it actually is'. It is not a matter of seeing things in a particular way, but of developing direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma. As understanding grows, the world is seem more as it truly is." Yes. J: "As regards seeing the world in terms of people and things, we should not forget that the arahant still thinks in terms of people and things (he couldn't function in the world if he didn't). But he has no misconception about the true nature of things." The distinction makes sense to me. J: "...Well I certainly I understand satipatthana to be vipassana bhavana, but this has been the subject of some debate lately (some members disagree). To my way of thinking, there is no good reason to translate 'bhavana' as 'meditation', since the literal meaning 'development' is fine and does not carry the implication of a method, technique or special practice. But I'm afraid 'meditation' is here to stay, as far as the available translations are concerned." I am satisfied that bhavana is best rendered as development. I'm satisfied to consider development, devoid of self, to be about that which grows when conditions are conducive. I don't develop anything. If I plant a seed I don't make it grow. Too much room for confusion inheres in the word "meditation". Samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana condition development of different things. J: "You may find, as I have found, that ideas about practice, or about doing something special, continue to arise over the years in one form or another, perhaps in more subtle ways, since the tendency is deeply rooted. Who knows what tendencies will hold sway in the future?" Who knows. I appreciate the chance to learn something. With loving kindness, Scott. #61848 From: Ken O Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard > Howard: > The following is from the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata, a > teaching > of the Buddha I believe: > > "He who does not find core or substance > in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought > in fig trees that bear none, > — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin." k: IMHO, this is not about lack of substance of dhamma, it is saying that realms of being, fig trees are all lack of substance because they are not real in the first instance. They are concepts. > Also, there is the following from the Phena Sutta (with > corresponding > statements > for the other four khandhas besides form): > > "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this > Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there > be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & > appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?" > ---------------------------------------------- k: when Buddha used the word empty, it is meant to be empty of a self. If you see the sunna sutta, the eyes etc are all forms, lacking of a self. As said earlier, concepts have no substances. <> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, Ken - you conceive of hardess as something existing on > its own, independently of being experienced, a rupa independent of nama. Where do you suppose such a thing resides? And what is the basis for assuming its existence?. The hardness that is felt is known as a fact. It is an element of experience. An unobserved hardness is, per force, unobserved and merely hypothesized. > The hardness sensation, however, is an obseved reality. ----------------------------------------------- k: this is like the Mind only school of thought that rupas only exist when mind experience it. It is not true. Rupa did exist externally as said in the suttas. Hardness of rupa exist whether the mind experience it or not. SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta <<"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form.>> ------------------------------- > Are there two kinds of hardness rupa, 1) the sensation, and > 2) the "external hardness" that causes the hardness sensation? > From the Bahiya Sutta there is the following in reply to > Bahiya's request to be taught the Dhamma: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to > the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train > yourself." > Admittedly, there is more than one way to understand this, but I > understand this as saying that one should apprehend what is experienced as mere experience, imposing nothing further and making no assumptions as to underlying something-or-other, either in known or in knowing. > -------------------------------------------- k: You said mere experience, These mere experiences are of different kinds, just like experience of an pleasant feeling is different of from an experience of unpleasant feeling. Is it the experience that differentiate the different experiences or it is the characterisitcs of the objects and the cetasikas that differentiate the different experience. If it is experience that differentiate the different experience Cheers Ken O #61849 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:29 am Subject: Re: bhaavana scottduncan2 Dear James, Further reflections and thanks for the opportunity to consider these things! James: "Didn't you read that quote by the Buddha? What do you mean an by an "inner thing"? I think you should study more about renunciation and start with the Vinaya Pitaka. After all, you could be sitting naked in a hot tub, beautiful blond women on either side, drinking a glass of champagne and passing around lines of coke- and still believe you are renouncing the worldly life. After all, it only happens on the inside, right???" Actually, I'd feel right squarely in the midst of worldly life were I to be ensconced in the above mentioned scenario. I appreciate the hyerbole but I meant to note that there must be some convergence of mental factors and external action. External action alone can simply be devoid of use if it is only action and on this we seem to agree. James: "Well, read the article. It explains the point of setting up a shrine. I had a shrine set up in my living room when I lived in America but I haven't done it since living in Egypt (my housekeeper and cook, being Muslim, probably wouldn't understand or approve). But, when I get to Taiwan one of the first things I will do is set up a Buddhist shrine again. In the mornings and evenings I show respect to the Buddha image, light a candle and incense, and meditate in front of it. The Buddha shrine is to remind you that the Buddha is your teacher and that you respect him and owe so much to him!!" Thanks for the personal details. Very helpful. I appreciate the aspect of respect both as you note above, and within the text of the essay. I do see the importance of this. Yesterday, while waiting for the kids I was sitting in the sun and studying the introduction to Conditional Relations and, without incense, candle, Buddha-image, or anything, found myself quite suffused momentarily with a deep sense of respect for the Buddha and the Dhamma. I'm not saying that therefore I need not consider shrines or the like. I'm saying that I know what you mean by setting the scene for such important dhammas to arise. James: "It's okay, at least you are trying to understand and I appreciate your efforts." This has helped me consider things. I don't need to adopt foreign cultural values or traditions and call it practise, since this might only satisfy my need to appear to myself to be a Buddhist. I totally appreciate the focus on setting the stage for mindfulness, as was said in the essay: "Whenever we think that such things are not worth troubling over then we are just careless and unmindful." This confirms my limited experience with such things. A sense of sort of preparatory mindfulness or openness to things that are not as the world sees them is a benefit. It makes sense that concern with these aspects of things can be "to generate zeal for Dhamma in oneself" if one remains aware that things arise as conditions are right and no one can make them arise. I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the essay that establishing shrines or prostrating or chanting is "to get away from reading books on [Dhamma] and into doing it." One oughtn't read just to get smart. Studying Dhamma is bhavana - development. I don't think it is about something I do. But alas, in these matters I think there will remain these beautiful disagreements until the cows come home. I hope you can post from time to time, James. Thanks again for letting me consider these things with you. With loving kindness, Scott. #61850 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:44 am Subject: Re: Ven. Cunda's Advice buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the commentary notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples (i.e at least sotapannas). James: This is your common response and what I spoke about earlier: Suttas encouraging jhana or mindfulness meditation were directed at ariyans and since there aren't any ariyans in this day and age, they aren't meant for us…etc. etc. etc. I have heard it all before and I don't buy it. Granted, you aren't outright disparaging meditators, but I consider this approach passive aggressive. Sarah: So there were disputes even during the Buddha's life between different groups of ariyan disciples, I think. And so who are we that we could possibly be beyond having disputes of any kind? James: Having disputes is not conducive to dhamma practice. Just like the sutta I quoted, these are not just differences of opinion, these are personal confrontations. Granted, in this group these confrontations have the air of civility, but they are still just as destructive. Sarah: I don't think anyone has ever been 'entirely rejected' here:- ) Not even partially rejected! James: I completely disagree. And I'm not even upset right now (I have no reason to be); I am very calm and rational. You might even be wondering where all of this is coming from. Well, I guess it is better to point out this problem while I am calm and rational, rather than in the middle of a dispute like usual. Sarah: I'd be very happy to 'speak of the value of meditation practice, like Ven Cunda taught'. Is my understanding of this the same as yours? Probably not. Should I fake a different understanding? I don't think so. James: I wouldn't ask you to fake anything, but why would you "be happy" to discuss the value of meditation practice with me when you know that they don't match? There is no point to that. Sarah: You've been writing many kind and friendly posts recently, James. James: Thanks. Like I wrote, I am not angry or upset about anything. I just wanted to point out why there are so many upset feelings in this group. As Ven. Cunda said, we need to see the value in the other's practice, not just speak nice about their practices. Arguing that we are not aryans and therefore shouldn't practice meditation, no matter how nicely worded those arguments are, is not following Cunda's advice. That passive aggressive approach will just result in sublimated upset feelings which eventually explode. Sarah: I've appreciated them and also appreciate the bhavana or mental development in your daily life and practice. But meditation is a very big word which covers a multitude of different mental states, would't you say? Can it all be good or bad? James: You say in one sentence that you appreciate the bhavana in my daily life (which you know for a fact involves formal sitting practice), but then you say in the next sentence that we can't really be sure what meditation is and that we don't even know if it is good or bad. Sarah! That is hypocritical and passive aggressive! Don't compliment me and then slap my face! ;-)) Sarah: No need to respond if you'd prefer to wait til we meet or prefer to not discuss further. James: Oh, I'm sure that we will discuss this issue further when we meet. It's going to be one interesting lunch! ;-)) Metta, James #61851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The fourth "bodily Tie." dualism. nilovg Hi Herman, Honestly, I do not understand the tenor of your questions. Maybe I am dense, just back from a trip in the heatwave, and having more than 90 posts here. I followed what you said about Andrew and being silent. You misunderstand this. This is a busy list and how could we react to all that others write to each other? At times I find it important what others think of me, but I learnt from Kh Sujin that this is conceit: he and me thinking. Sorry, none of your three remarks below I understand. Nina. Op 24-jul-2006, om 14:13 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Actually, you acknowledge the kindness of many folks here, > and by omission, clearly identify those who you think are unkind. Do > you think that agreement is kindness? > > Is there a difference between you reading from your books to a > cardboard cutout, and reading from your books to Lodewijk? > > > PS Please tell Lodewijk that I feel for him. Some of my family have > been demented and I know it is necessary but not pleasant to care for > them. > > _ #61852 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness and insight 2 (samadhi) jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >J: "Panna that arises with samatha consciousness knows whether the >consciousness is kusala or aksuala; it can distinguish between kusala >and subtle akusala. But it does not know anything about the >characteristic of a presently arising dhamma, by which is meant a >dhamma's characteristic as a nama or rupa, or its particular >characteristic that distinguishes it from all other kinds of dhammas, >or the characteristics of anicca, dukkha or anatta that are common to >all conditioned dhammas." > >So, knowing about whether the consciousness is wholesome or >unwholesome is not knowing a "characteristic of a presently arising >dhamma." > Knowledge of the kusala or aksuala nature of the present mindstate is not the kind of knowledge that leads to escape from samsara. That is because it does nothing to help break down the idea of self. >Samatha consciousness knows the difference between kusula >and akusula. What is the object of samatha consciousness? This >includes the below: > >J: "Worth noting here is that the objects of samatha consciousness >are not dhammas, generally speaking. For example: for metta and the >other brahma viharas the object will be a person/being; for the >recollections on foulness of the body, a body or corpse; for >recollection on the Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha, some aspect of the >teachings; for the kasinas, a disc, and so on." > >So the objects of samatha consciousness are pa~n~natti? I think I >need to learn more about "mind-objects." > Yes, the objects of samatha consciousness are pannatti. Mind-objects include concepts. >Thanks, Jon, sorry if I'm slow on the uptake. > Well I wouldn't say that at all! Jon #61853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidhamma origins nilovg Dear Charles D, Of course not, see the end of my post: he spoke in conventional language. We have learnt that what we call I are five khandhas, but without being mistaken I can still say:' I' can say... 'we' have learnt. The Buddha knew that people would understand when he spoke about his remembrance of past lives: in the past I was so and so, of such or such a nama, of such or such clan, etc. Nina. Op 24-jul-2006, om 23:34 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > So the Buddha was lying or mistaken when he claimed to be “so and > so” in a > past-life (as you have stated before)? #61854 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Re: Doctrine and inspiration (Was: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi and Buddhaghosa jonoabb Dear Joop Thanks for this reply. Apart from our disagreement on a few points, which you've summarised here (and which seem to be mainly matters of opinion), I don't see any particular issues to discuss, although I'm happy to keep talking on these points if you'd like to. Jon Joop wrote: >What I really see as a difference between Suttas and texts of >commentarors is that Suttas can inspire me, and texts of commentators >(I read much) never did. >Doctrines are not so important to me, I prefer to trust my 'buddhist >intuition'. > >For the rest of your messages some short reactions: > >Jon: " The fact is that in the time of the Buddha many became >enlightened just >on hearing a sutta, and I would say they understood the teachings far >better than we do today, whatever the reason for that difference mght >be." > >Joop: I don't agree, or better: we don't know. We don't have any >statistical information proving this hypothesis. > > >Jon: "As I recall it, the explanation given is that the 500 years >mentioned by the Buddha referred to the disappearance of arahants >with abhinna attainments. > >Joop: That's not correct. > > >Jon: "The kind of thing I have in mind is that not only is it >necessary to consider other suttas about DO but also other suttas >that don't directly mention DO, too. What was said about DO has to >sit together with what was said in, say, the Satipatthana Sutta, or >the suttas on the All, on the khandhas, dhatus and ayatanas. DO is >not something to be understood in isolation, surely. > >Joop: Again, this idea of you doesn't give me big problems. But, >again, my statement is that one can better read Suttas themselves >than commentators . > > #61855 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/26/06 1:41:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi All, > > In light of the recent Herman controversy and the bad feelings it > brought out, I want to revisit a sutta which is periodically quoted > in this group (for good reason) and following the quote I have some > personal comments: > > On one occasion Ven. Maha Cunda was staying among the Cetis in > Sanjatiya. There he addressed the monks, "Friend monks!" > "Yes, friend," the monks responded to him. > Ven. Maha Cunda said, "Friends, there is the case where Dhamma- > devotee monks1 disparage jhana monks, saying, 'These people are > absorbed and besorbed in jhana, saying, "We are absorbed, we are > absorbed." But why, indeed, are they absorbed? For what purpose are > they absorbed? How are they absorbed?' In that, the Dhamma-devotee > monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not shine > brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for > the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the > welfare &happiness of human &divine beings. > "Then there is the case where jhana monks disparage Dhamma-devotee > monks, saying, 'These people say, "We are Dhamma-devotees, we are > Dhamma-devotees,' but they are excitable, boisterous, unsteady, > mouthy, loose in their talk, muddled in their mindfulness, unalert, > uncontentrated, their minds wandering, their senses uncontrolled. > Why, indeed, are they Dhamma devotees? For what purpose are they > Dhamma devotees? How are they Dhamma devotees?' In that, the jhana > monks do not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not > shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the > masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, > nor for the welfare &happiness of human &divine beings. > "Then there is the case where Dhamma-devotee monks praise only > Dhamma-devotee monks, and not jhana monks. In that, the Dhamma- > devotee monks do not shine brightly, and the jhana monks do not > shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the > masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, > nor for the welfare &happiness of human &divine beings. > "Then there is the case where jhana monks praise only jhana monks, > and not Dhamma-devotee monks. In that, the jhana monks do not shine > brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That > is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness > of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & > happiness of human &divine beings. > "Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee > monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you > should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing > people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching > the deathless element with the body.2 > "And thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being jhana monks, > we will speak in praise of Dhamma-devotee monks.' That's how you > should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing > people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who penetrate with > discernment statements of deep meaning." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html --------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow! What a great sutta! You say it's been posted periodically here, but I was not familiar with it, or had forgotten it. It's terrific!! --------------------------------------------- > > Obviously this sutta was spoken after the paranibbana of the > Buddha. During the Buddha's lifetime, this feud wasn't an issue > because the Buddha encouraged all of the monks to learn the dhamma > and to practice jhana. However, after the Buddha's passing away, it > obviously didn't take too long for the sangha to polarize itself > into those who study and those who meditate- and they disparaged > each other. The monks probably began to follow a path of practice > that most suited their personal tastes. > > Now, Ven. Cunda came up with the perfect solution: each side should > recognize the benefits of the other side. Meditators should see the > benefits of dhamma study and scholarly monks should see the benefits > of meditation. > > Could this happen in this group? Could we reach a peace in the > manner of the one suggested by Ven. Cunda? Unfortunately, the > answer is a resounding no. Those who follow the KS teaching believe > that no one in this day and age is capable of reaching jhana and > that anyone who tries is simply acting out of ego. -------------------------------------------- Howard: That has been my impression of some of the admirers of Khun Sujin on DSG, but not all. Also, of the 770 subscribers to DSG, how many of them are "followers" of Khun Sujin? And it happens to be true that a good number of the active posters here are meditators, though, with a few exceptions, far from being the lay version of "jhana monks". So, I think your negative assessment with regard to the Buddha's solution on DSG is overly pessimistic --------------------------------------------- I am willing to > > compromise- I see the value of dhamma study and don't fault anyone > for not meditating. However, in this group I am not given the same > respect or consideration. I am told that I have wrong view; I don't > really understand the dhamma; and that my way of practice is not > only fruitless but also harmful to myself. --------------------------------------------- Howard: How many members of DSG actually tell you that? And in any case, why would you willingly let bigotry and fixed view determine things here? -------------------------------------------- > > There is no reason to continue in a forum where I, and those who > also practice meditation, am so entirely rejected. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: First of all, you are *not* entirely rejected here. By whom? As far as I'm concerned, you are very, very welcome here. And I think my opinion is as important as any other member here! And so is yours! In my opinion, other than Jon and Sarah who own and moderate the list (with great expertise and much gentleness and lovingkindness), I believe there is no member who has any more right to be a member than any other, and there is no one at all here who has any more right to assert his/her understanding of the Dhamma than any other. The only criteria for membership should be respect for the Dhamma and respect for one's fellow beings. No one here has the authority to judge one's "Dhamma credentials"! Please don't permit anyone here to arrogate such authority to themselves. ---------------------------------------- Some say that it > > isn't possible to have agreement and that there should be debate; > that such disagreements encourage one to learn equanimity and > detachment…blah, blah, blah. Did Ven. Cunda teach that? Is that > how a group of people should get along with each other? No, sorry. > There is no excuse or reason for the animosity and constant > bickering. > > Therefore, I have limited my participation more and more in this > group and I will completely stop when I get to Taiwan. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I hope not. --------------------------------------- I may pop in > > occasionally but it won't be anything like before. If those who > follow KS change their minds and begin to speak of the value of > meditation practice, like Ven. Cunda taught, then someone let me > know and I would be happy to participate again. ------------------------------------- Howard: The hardline anti-meditators are in the minority among the 770 members, I am sure. Is it fair or appropriate to require that they change their understanding of the Dhamma because you and I disagree with it? I have no doubt they are wrong in their view. But it is theirs. I have neither the right nor the ability to command a change in their perspective. ------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ================== With metta, Howard #61856 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Howard Nina has given some detail on the function of samadhi cetasika in a single mind-moment. I'll try and add a few more comments. upasaka@... wrote: > Exactly what is "the fixing of the mind on a single object" according >to Abhidhamma? At any time, there is exactly one object of consciousness. What >exactly is the difference when the mental "fixing" is stronger or weaker? >There is still exactly the one object. It is there. What is the difference in the >manner in which it is there? What is the difference when the mind is *not* >strongly "fixed". What I am after is not the word fixed, but the reality of what >is happening. > > I don't know the answer to this question, except to say that samadhi always performs its function. > Here are some thoughts of mine: Concentration belongs to the >sankharakkkhandha, making it a "fabrication". What does it fabricate? I think that one >possibility is that one-pointedness is the operation which tends to replicate >the object; that is, it is a condition which tends to sustain consciousness on >the same object as other cetasikas come and go, rather than more easily >flitting from one object to another. Another way of putting it might be that >one-pointedness is the inclination to remain with the object or is the absence of an >inclination to drop the object; i.e., a kind of cetana, or at least >cetana-like. > > I don't see why there should be such a thing as a tendency to replicate the same object. In the most extreme example I can think of, magga citta, when samadhi is at its strongest, it takes its object (Nibbana) for a single moment only. On the question of whether samadhi (ekaggataa cetasika) plays a role in the concentration on/contemplation of a given object, the answer is yes, but as one of several factors (collectively known as the jhana factors, although not limited to samatha/jhana or even to kusala mind-states). Those factors are: 1. vitakka ('initial application') 2. vicaara ('sustained application 3. piiti ('zest') 4. ekagattaa ('one-pointedness') 5. somanassa ('joy') 6. domanassa ('displeasure') 7. upekkhaa ('equanimity') (Of these 7 factors, 6 can be wholesome, unwholesome or indeterminate, depending on the citta with which they occur, while domanassa is an akusala cetasika.) > What do you think, Jon? Of course, what I have just proposed may not >be right at all. But, then, some other explanation is called for. Merely using >the phrase "being firmly fixed" or "fixed on a single object" without further >explanation is inadequate, not only because of lack of detail, but more so >because there is always but one object, and thus, on that basis, there are no >degrees of concentation, the mind being always fixed on the one and only object. > > I'm not sure that our finding an explanation inadequate is a good reason for speculating about another explanation ;-)). Jon #61857 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting (to Jon) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Jon, maybe you could add a note about a Thai expression I heard today. > > mai X mai Y (forget it now, two words starting with p) that get at >this dynamic. > > Not sure what phonetic system you use, but 'mai phak, mai phien' should do it. I think 'phak' as in 'phak-phorn' 'to rest', 'phien' as in energy(?, not sure). 'Mai' of course means 'not'. Sorry I can't be more helpful, I no longer have a Thai dictionary. > I've started studying Thai now and then by listening to some >podcasts. I used to know a smattering. Fun to get back into it. I can't >get enough of Acharn Sujin - wanna listen to her in Thai too, someday. > > Great, Phil. It's worth the effort (but would have been impossible for me if not for living in Thailand). Jon #61858 From: "Bhante Seelagawesi" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:53 am Subject: "On the way" bhanteseelag... Dear beloved Dhamma Friends, Concentration helps the person to approach the world with energy. The world is the world. It is constituted of fire, water, earth and air. There is space for multi-shaped substances. The living being deals with the world to lead his life. He feels his expectations can be fulfilled only when he possesses the world. This possessive mind is eager to attach towards his desires in the world. This is the cause of the suffering. When the mind is affected by the delusion, the person accepts the attachment as a very essential part of the life. This perception does not help him to find the truth. In this case he should be aware of mindfulness, concentration and wisdom to cultivate within. This can be achieved through meditation. So I invite to commit some of your time towards the practice of mediation. May you become a worthy one to gain confidence, effort, mindfulness and wisdom through concentration! With much love and compassion, Seelagawesi Thero Gamini #61859 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - My first inclintion was to not reply, as I tend to hesitate to enter upon hopeless projects, but I finally decided that I couldn't just let this go by without comment. In a message dated 7/26/06 8:09:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > >Howard: > > The following is from the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata, a > >teaching > >of the Buddha I believe: > > > >"He who does not find core or substance > >in any of the realms of being, > >like flowers which are vainly sought > >in fig trees that bear none, > > â€â€? such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > >just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin." > > k: IMHO, this is not about lack of substance of dhamma, it is saying > that realms of being, fig trees are all lack of substance because > they are not real in the first instance. They are concepts. -------------------------------------- Howard: No, Ken. His mention of looking for flowers in fig trees is metaphorical, with the nonexistent flowers representing missing substance. You have missed the point. ------------------------------------- > > > > Also, there is the following from the Phena Sutta (with > >corresponding > >statements > > for the other four khandhas besides form): > > > >"Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this > >Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe > it, &appropriately examine it. To him â€â€? seeing it, observing it, > &appropriately examining it â€â€? it would appear empty, void, > without substance: for what substance would there > >be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & > >appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; > internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > near. To him â€â€? seeing it, observing it, &appropriately examining > it â€â€? it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what > substance would there be in form?" > >---------------------------------------------- > > k: when Buddha used the word empty, it is meant to be empty of a > self. If you see the sunna sutta, the eyes etc are all forms, > lacking of a self. As said earlier, concepts have no substances. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: The quote from the Uraga Sutta you dismiss by (erroneously) stating that it pertains to concepts. But the material in the Phena Sutta unquestionably pertains to paramattha dhammas, so you try some other approach, talking about 'empty'. But what we are discussing is the matter of *substantiality* and its relevance to anatta.Ths sutta emphasizes the lack of substance in dhammas! The portion quoted ends with "for what substance would there be in form?" Ken it is clear to me that what you are doing is attempting to defend a fixed view of yours against all evidence of the Buddha taking the opposite perspective, trying to knock down different pieces of evidence in any way possible in order to hold on to your view for dear life.Why it is so important to you to see no relationship between anatta and lack of substance is beyond me, but it obviously is. I will not try to disabuse you of your heartfelt perspective. You are welcome to it. For me, it is clear that much of the Dhamma pertains to the matter of insubstantiality. With metta, Howard #61860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:33 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 34 nilovg Dear friends, Every time a lobha-múla-citta arises lobha is accumulated. When the conditions are there, lobha can motivate ill deeds through body, speech or mind. When we see to what kinds of deeds lobha can lead we will be more inclined to develop the wisdom which eventually will lead to its eradication. Ill deeds are called in Påli: akusala kamma. Kamma is the cetasika (mental factor arising with the citta) which is intention or volition, in Påli: cetanå. However, the word ``kamma'' is also used in a more general sense for the deeds which are intended by cetanå. The term kamma-patha (literally ``course of action'') is used as well in this sense. There are akusala kamma-pathas and kusala kamma- pathas, ill deeds and good deeds, accomplished through body, speech and mind. As regards akusala kamma-patha, there are ten akusala kamma- pathas and these are conditioned by lobha, dosa and moha. Moha, ignorance, accompanies every akusala citta, it is the root of all evil. Thus, whenever there is akusala kamma-patha, there must be moha. Some akusala kamma-pathas can sometimes be performed with lobha- múla-citta and sometimes with dosa-múla-citta. Therefore, when we see someone else committing an ill deed we cannot always be sure which kind of citta motivates that deed. The ten akusala kamma-pathas are the following: 1. Killing 2. Stealing 3. Sexual misbehaviour 4. Lying 5. Slandering 6. Rude speech 7. Frivolous talk 8. Covetousness 9. Ill-will 10. Wrong view (di.t.thi) Killing, stealing and sexual misbehaviour are three akusala kamma- pathas accomplished through the body. Lying, slandering, rude speech and frivolous talk are four akusala kamma-pathas accomplished through speech. Covetousness, ill-will and wrong view are three akusala kamma- pathas accomplished through the mind. ***** Nina. #61861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:36 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 15. nilovg Dear friends, Someone thought that knowing the conditions for dosa (aversion) would help to eliminate it. He thought that knowing the conditions means thinking about the circumstances, the 'story'. However, that is not pa~n~na which realizes conditions, it is thinking about a 'story', about concepts. And is there not an idea of ' my dosa' about which one thinks? How can one know dosa as it really is, since that is the only way to eventually eliminate it? It should be known as nama, not self, arising because of conditions. Not only dosa should be known as it is, but all realities which appear through the six doors. As regards dosa, the real cause of aversion or anger is not the circumstances, not the other people, but our accumulations of dosa. Dosa is not self, but a conditioned reality. Thus we can see that in thinking about the story, about the circumstances, we do not come to know more about dosa. We have accumulations to think a great deal. When there is thinking about dosa, the thinking can be realized as nama, not self. Ignorance of realities can never be eradicated by merely thinking about them. The Buddha spoke time and again about realities appearing through the six doors in order to remind us to be aware of them. In this way panna will know them as they are and ignorance and wrong view of realities can be eradicated. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-Vagga, Second Fifty, Ch I, par. 53, Ignorance): Then a certain monk came to the Exalted One, and on coming to him saluted him and sat down at one side. So seated that monk said this: 'By how knowing, lord, by how seeing does ignorance vanish and knowledge arise?' 'In him that knows and sees the eye as impermanent, monk, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises. In him that knows and sees objects...seeing-consciousness, ...the ear...sounds...hearing- consciousness,... the nose...smells...smelling-consciousness..., the tongue...flavours... tasting-consciousness..., the body... touches...body-consciousness,...the mind...mindstates... mind- consciousness,... as impermanent, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises.' ******** Nina. #61862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: bhaavana nilovg Dear Scott and James, Yes, K. Sujin sees the Buddha as the supreme teacher. When we develop satipatthana our confidence in him will grow. We shall understand more what Buddha means. At the foundation are the relics of the Buddha and there are many flower arrangements in front. We pay respect and offer flowers. It is really personal how one feels one will pay respect. It is kusala siila to pay respect with one's whole heart. I appreciate what James does. It need not be an outward gesture. We think of the Buddha's wisdom, his compassion, his purity while we bow down and prostrate. I learnt this in Thailand. There was an ordination of a foreign monk, and I practised it, asking Kh Sujin whether that was the right way. I like to pay respect to monks in that way, they remind me of the ariyan sangha which deserves respect. Nina. Op 25-jul-2006, om 5:28 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > But, when I get to Taiwan one of the first things I will do is set > up a Buddhist shrine again. In the mornings and evenings I show > respect to the Buddha image, light a candle and incense, and > meditate in front of it. The Buddha shrine is to remind you that > the Buddha is your teacher and that you respect him and owe so much > to him!! > > The interesting thing is that K. Sujin's Foundation in Bangkok > doesn't have a Buddha shrine at all. I was really shocked to learn > that, at first. But then it makes sense. K. Sujin doesn't really > recognize the Buddha as the supreme teacher. #61863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what Sarah said to Betty in Kashmir nilovg Dear Betty, thank you for your great post! So human, and we all know such situations. I had a similar experience long ago in a temple, I was given the worst room. Kh Sujin asked the next day: are you glad now to have had such vipaka? Yes, because I learnt something. Nina. Op 25-jul-2006, om 17:21 heeft het volgende geschreven: > we stayed in house boats on Dal Lake. Tremendous dosa arose for me > over that side trip: it was far too cold, the houseboats were old > and musty, the food was tasteless, the hawkers never gave us a > moment's peace, there was nothing of beauty to see and the guides > were surly. To make matters worse, I complained bitterly to anyone > I thought would listen; the trip was a total waste. #61864 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman nilovg Hi Howard, well said, hear, hear. Nina. Op 25-jul-2006, om 16:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We, each of us, take our opinions and the expression of them, as > pure elixer of the gods! LOL! But, in fact, nothing that we say > here (including > these observations of mine), and none of our oh-so-great deeds will > last all > that long in memory, and we ourselves will be quickly forgotten > except by a few > not so long after our death! So, IMO, we should "get real", calm > down, take > it easy, "rest in piece" while still alive, and love each other as > good friends #61865 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: bhaavana buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > At the foundation are the relics of the Buddha and there are many > flower arrangements in front. WHAT?? The KS foundation has ACTUAL relics of the Buddha? That is quite impressive. Okay, I stand corrected. Metta, James #61866 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An apology to Herman upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/26/06 2:17:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > well said, hear, hear. > Nina. > ===================== Thank you, Nina! :-) With much metta, Howard P.S. My warm regards to Lodewijk! #61867 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ven. Cunda's Advice nilovg Hi James, Sarah, don't forget your notebooks so that both of you can report. Nina. Op 26-jul-2006, om 14:44 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: Oh, I'm sure that we will discuss this issue further when we > meet. It's going to be one interesting lunch! ;-)) > #61868 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Nina, There seems to be a discrepacy here between Vism. and the Buddhist Dictionary regarding the contemplation of the signless. In the Buddhist Dictionary under "vipassana" the signless seems to be nibbana, but in Vism.XXII,114 it says: " 'Contemplation of the signless' is the same as contemplation of impermanence. Through its means the sign of permanence is abandoned." Larry #61869 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:30 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,91 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XVII 91. (16) Leaving out the femininity and masculinity faculties, the twenty remaining faculties (see Ch. XVI,1), which assist in the sense of predominance, are 'faculty conditions'. Herein, the five, namely, the eye faculty, etc., are conditions only for immaterial states, the rest are conditions for material and immaterial states, according as it is said: 'The eye faculty [is a condition, as faculty condition,] for eye-consciousness element [and for the states associated therewith]. The ear faculty ... The nose faculty ... The tongue faculty ... The body faculty is a condition, as faculty condition, for the body-consciousness element and for the states associated therewith.The material life faculty is a condition, as faculty condition, for the kind of materiality due to kamma performed. The immaterial faculties are a condition, as faculty condition, for the states associated therewith and for the kinds of materiality originated thereby' (P.tn.1,5-6). But in the Question Section it is said: 'At the moment of rebirth-linking resultant indeterminate faculties are a condition, as faculty condition, for associated aggregates and for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed' (P.tn.1,175). ************************ 91. adhipatiya.t.thena upakaarakaa itthindriyapurisindriyavajjaa viisatindriyaa indriyapaccayo. tattha cakkhundriyaadayo aruupadhammaana.myeva, sesaa ruupaaruupaana.m paccayaa honti. yathaaha ``cakkhundriya.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa...pe0... sota... ghaana... jivhaa... kaayindriya.m kaayavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ta.msampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m indriyapaccayena paccayo. ruupajiivitindriya.m ka.tattaaruupaana.m indriyapaccayena paccayo. aruupino indriyaa sampayuttakaana.m dhammaana.m ta.msamu.t.thaanaana~nca ruupaana.m indriyapaccayena paccayo''ti (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.16). pa~nhaavaare pana ``pa.tisandhikkha.ne vipaakaabyaakataa indriyaa sampayuttakaana.m khandhaana.m ka.tattaa ca ruupaana.m indriyapaccayena paccayo''tipi (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.430) vutta.m. #61870 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:28 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting ken_aitch Hi Scott, Thanks for your reply. I could have trodden a bit more carefully with my description of 'the oft examined dichotomy.' However, it is impossible to say one perspective on the Dhamma is right without implying that the others are wrong. --------------- KH: > > Firstly, I would like to correct you: the oft examined dichotomy is between formal practice and the Middle Way. > > S: > Thanks. Is this the "majjhimaa-patipadaa?" The Noble Eightfold Path? ---------------- Yes, strictly speaking, the Middle Way is the NEP, which belongs exclusively to the Ariyans. In its broadest sense, however, it is the way of right understanding and it begins at a very elementary, intellectual, level. So, the oft-expressed dichotomy is between a way of understanding (here and now) and a way of formal practice. ------------- <. . .> S: > The paali is (and don't really take this for anything else than me studying in public - corrections desired): "Appati.t.tha.m kvaaha.m aavuso anaayuuha.m ghamatrinti." "appati.t.tha.m" is "not: standing fast or firmly; finding a support in; being established in; fixing oneself to; being supported and the like." "aavuso" is "not: behaving, living, or acting; practising." "anaayuuha.m" is "not: intent upon ; devoted to; busy; eager; active; endeavouring; striving; keen; eager; active; yoked to; connected with; intent upon; devoted to." The sense is, then, "not taking a footing and not exerting" has something to do with somehow avoiding all of the above. And all of the above sounds like the very things one is supposed to have and do! --------------- Congratulations on your rapid mastery of Pali, and, I agree, the above does sound like the opposite of everything a Buddhist is supposed to do. But the NEP is no conventional path. It is inevitably (by its own intrinsic nature) difficult to follow. I am happy to begin at the beginning: "There are only dhammas." --------------------- S: > If I've even come close to getting the sense of the above, then it is truly hard to accept and grasp and very deep. --------------------- I think your current conversation with Jon is getting to the nitty gritty, and I am sure we are all benefiting from it. ------- <. . .> S: > Yeah. There are degrees of understanding. These cannot be forced to be otherwise. ------- Exactly! "Patience, courage and good cheer" *is* the Middle Way. Ken H #61871 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Ken, Thank you. K: "...I could have trodden a bit more carefully with my description of 'the oft examined dichotomy.' However, it is impossible to say one perspective on the Dhamma is right without implying that the others are wrong." Possibly (on the "trodden more carefully" thing), it didn't seem so, but then we are all learning to be mindful of our interactions on the list these days. And if there is "right view," as there surely is, then, of course, there is wrong view. The thing is, though, it is all impersonal, isn't it? K: "Yes, strictly speaking, the Middle Way is the NEP, which belongs exclusively to the Ariyans. In its broadest sense, however, it is the way of right understanding and it begins at a very elementary, intellectual, level." Okay, that makes sense. K: "So, the oft-expressed dichotomy is between a way of understanding (here and now) and a way of formal practice." I wonder how else to express the dichotomy? A rhetorical question, I guess, but one can even go about vipassana bhavana in the wrong way if one is out there trying to have understanding here and now. There is "a way of understanding" in which pa~n~na arises as conditions conduce, or the idea that there is a way one can go about causing understanding. But then, you already know that. Just thinking out loud. S; "aavuso" is "not: behaving, living, or acting; practising." See just below, "aavuso" means friend and is a form of greeting. K: "Congratulations on your rapid mastery of Pali..." Not so fast (see above) but thanks - and no mastery here. K: "...and, I agree, the above does sound like the opposite of everything a Buddhist is supposed to do. But the NEP is no conventional path. It is inevitably (by its own intrinsic nature) difficult to follow. I am happy to begin at the beginning: 'There are only dhammas.'" Yeah, man. K: "I think your current conversation with Jon is getting to the nitty gritty, and I am sure we are all benefiting from it." If only a) I can keep up with him, and b) he doesn't get tired out. K: "Exactly! "Patience, courage and good cheer" *is* the Middle Way." Yeah, man. You can't say that too often. Scott. #61872 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:30 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions scottduncan2 Dear Connie, c: "one last time for now..." Same. c: "Nimitta is(unlikely) a big brick wall and rather than trying to knock it down with my head, i just hang around awaiting some uplifting understanding. Nina was pursuing a (private?) study of the n-word not so long ago [unless i'm way off my (guess)mark]. in any case, what presents. When the great cloud grants your wish and lightning strikes, I pray it forks off and finds me under the Book of Analysis, too. And as long as there is running but no hiding, i suppose it is ok to discuss black market activities on-list: the earnest agreement check is in the mail." I recall, now, Nina's study. Archives again. Deal pending amount. c: "I didn't remember whether you were in Cali or Canada. When i'm heavy handed on the motorpiglet, the kph scale encourages more restraint than the mph, but my favorite way to slow down remains in the balance of no-hands riding." Yeah, when we switched we all felt as if we got to speed with joyous hazardity all around. Illusory of course. c: "regardless (& in all cirrus-nest) a term (and the rest of the paragraph Embracing p164) respecting future considerations of the youngsters: << Reply: By a figurative application (upacaaravutti). For the word 'extensionist', which occurs in reference to the last two theorists by way of the total (objective domain) of their views (ie the finitude and the infinity of the world) also applies by linguistic convention to the first two theorists individually to each immaterial jhaana, or as the term 'abode of beings' applies to the world. Or else the expression ('finite-infinitizer') was given to them by way of its applicability to the times prior to their adherence. For these theorists, at a time prior to their achievement of such mental concentration, were 'finite-infinitizers' insofaras their reasoning was suspended in b/n both positions, (as they pondered): 'Is the world finite, or is it infinite?' But even after they make a definite assumption through their gain of distinction, the older expression is still applied to them.>> unravel that!" "Akaala (without time) is the same as akaalika (not belonging to time). It does not yield fruit after using up time such as five days, seven days. It gives fruit immediately after its own arising...But this Law is not belonging to time as if fructifies immediately," (The Path of Purity, Pe Maung Tin, pp. 249-250). Ouch. c: "...but other than occasioning non-incurring karmic retroactivity, when is it not dreaming? (and might this be the same it that rains?). Technically, the it that rains is nimbostratus and cumulonimbus. Actually, good point. Literally, it is as you say: c: "i was going to say something about not just knowing what to take literally, but see p.xii vol.1 CR, beginning: <> up to 'For instance', eh?" I'll check it out. (The time factor again.) c: "pardon my childish delight in our conversation." If my own is pardonable. c: "i'll try to read more and excusing myself further, won't attempt to incur attachments in the minor issues." As above, with loving kindness, Scott. #61873 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:59 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions nichiconn ps, Scott, Embracing, p.218: (7) By the words "that too is conditioned by contact," signifying that the proclamation of eternalism, etc. occurs in dependence on conditions, the notion of permanence in dhammas is rejected and the truth of impermanence established. This phrase further refutes the notion of an agent existing as an ultimate reality, discloses the actual nature of dhammas, reveals the truth of emptiness, and indicates conditions and characteristics capable of functioning without an initiating agent. no fooling, 007. #61874 From: Peter Tomlinson Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:34 pm Subject: hello gnanayasa Hello to all, I am Peter Tomlinson, and I live in Dallas TX. Presently I am associated with a Tibetan Vajrayana shrine, although I am Theravadan. Many years ago I, like many others during the 60's read Buddhist texts, Dhammapada, etc. and joined a Buddhist discussion group in Laguna Beach California. The person who held the group had contact with a monastery in Sri Lanka and so we wrote to them and got permission to visit. When I went there I stayed 2 years reading studying meditating and practicing Theravada Buddhist ways. Upon returning to the states this gradually slipped away and until recently I did not practice at all. For the last year or so I, having renewed my Triple Refuge, have read the Suttas, in English, begun to meditate, and take Sila daily. While all this has not made me a saint, it has made me less irritable and silly where the world at large is concerned. A return to, "sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe sankhara dukkha, sabbe dhamma anatta", has tempered my immersion in modern life to an extent. And although I am not a Tibetan Buddhist, nor a Vajrayana Mahayanist, these filks are close friends and I treasure them and their sincere intentions to follow Lord Buddha in the way they see as revealed to them. Their love of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha has attracted me while I am certainly only fully at home in the Theravada. At some point I will need to go to the Thai temple here. when I visited the Cambodian temple a few miles from here and did puja I was overwhelmed by a snese of "home" that made it quite difficult to leave. So much from me for now. Please excuse the run-on and sentiment. Pete Tomlinson #61875 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:43 pm Subject: Feeding Concentration ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is Feeding the Concentration Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, even & exactly so are the Seven Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot remain without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen Concentration Link to Awakening and also feeding of the completion by condensation of any arisen Concentration Link to Awakening? There are two signs: The sign of calm, serenity & mental silence and the sign of non-distraction & non-scatter! Frequently giving careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the arising of any yet unarisen Concentration Link to Awakening & also feeding of the gradual fulfilment of any already arisen Concentration Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs all emergence of a yet unarisen Concentration Link to Awakening & which also hinders any already arisen Concentration Link from reaching fulfilment by development? The sign of calm, serenity & mental silence and the sign of non-distraction & non-scatter! Not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents an unarisen Concentration Link to Awakening from arising and also blocks any already arisen Concentration Link to Awakening from reaching any complete fulfilment by mental training and progressive development by meditation... Comments from the classical commentaries: Focus is the characteristic of the Concentration Link to Awakening (Samadhi-Sambojjhanga). Ceasing of all distraction, disturbance, diversion, agitation, mental instability and wavering is the purpose of the quality of Concentration (Samadhi). Penetration is the manifestation of the Concentration Link to Awakening. This stability produces breakthrough to understanding! Concentration is present in all consciousness. This can be greatly enhanced by fixing attention. Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the Concentration Link to Awakening are: 1: Keeping own body, behaviour, belongings and surroundings completely clean... 2: Having routine in recognizing the sign of calm and the sign of non-distraction... 3: Ballancing the abilities of faith vs. understanding & energy vs. concentration evenly... 4: Controlling, confining and restraining the mind, whenever necessary... 5: Pushing, prodding and exerting the mind, whenever needed... 6: Gladdening, encouraging and easing the mind, whenever suitable... 7: Looking on, just overseeing the mind in equanimity, whenever appropriate... 8: Avoiding unconcentrated, agitated, diffuse and scatter-minded people... 9: Friendship with concentrated people with direct experience in absorption... 10: Frequent reviewing of the mental absorptions (jhanas) & the mental liberations... 11: Commitment to focus the mind into one-pointed and absorbed Concentration! There is Concentration while thinking and there is Concentration without any thinking! Mental absorption (Jhana) is the higher being's exquisite state! Awakening is fixed focus! What is this Sublime & Profound Right Concentration? http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Concentration.htm How to remove recurring disadvantageous Distractions? http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/How_to_Remove_Distracting_Thoughts.htm Requisites for Attaining the 1st Jhana Absorption? http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Requisites_for_Jhana_Absorption.htm Details on the Jhana Absorptions: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Details_of_the_Jhana_Absorptions.htm Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... ----------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. #61876 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. nilovg Hi Larry, it is Vis. XXII, 117. There are different contexts where sign is used. Nina. Op 27-jul-2006, om 1:22 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > n the Buddhist Dictionary under "vipassana" the signless seems to be > nibbana, but in Vism.XXII,114 it says: > > " 'Contemplation of the signless' is the same as contemplation of > impermanence. Through its means the sign of permanence is abandoned." #61877 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Wow! What a great sutta! You say it's been posted periodically here, > but I was not familiar with it, or had forgotten it. It's terrific!! > --------------------------------------------- James: Hmmm...I'm surprised that you don't remember it. But, I'm glad that you liked it. . > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That has been my impression of some of the admirers of Khun Sujin on > DSG, but not all. James: You know some of the admirers of KS who meditate or speak highly of meditation? Who? I haven't seen that in this group. Also, of the 770 subscribers to DSG, how many of them are > "followers" of Khun Sujin? James: I don't know; I don't even know how many of them actually read the posts! ;-)) I was just speaking in general of the active members. And it happens to be true that a good number of the > active posters here are meditators, though, with a few exceptions, far from > being the lay version of "jhana monks". So, I think your negative assessment with > regard to the Buddha's solution on DSG is overly pessimistic James: I really don't follow your logic here. Yes, the meditators in this group aren't "jhana monks" and the admirers of KS aren't "scholarly monks". But I think that the lesson of the sutta still applies to us. If we can't see the value of the other side, and speak highly of the other side, it lessens us all. > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > How many members of DSG actually tell you that? James: I have been told on several occassions that if I believe in the value of meditation practice I hold wrong view. Where have you been?? ;-)) And in any case, why > would you willingly let bigotry and fixed view determine things here? James: Well, as Phil has pointed out on several occassions, it is their group. Why not form another group which studies and discusses the Abhidhamma in light of meditation practice? I nominate you Howard to be the founder of such a group!! :-) > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > There is no reason to continue in a forum where I, and those who > > also practice meditation, am so entirely rejected. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > First of all, you are *not* entirely rejected here. By whom? As far as > I'm concerned, you are very, very welcome here. James: I don't know; it's just the way I feel. Active participation makes me very anxious and nervous. If I read the posts I am bound to come across one which really irritates the devil out of me! If I write a post, I cringe to think of how the members will respond. It isn't a greatly healthy environment because there is such a polarization of views on this one subject (and the Cunda sutta speaks to the same thing). And I think my opinion is as > important as any other member here! And so is yours! In my opinion, other than > Jon and Sarah who own and moderate the list (with great expertise and much > gentleness and lovingkindness), I believe there is no member who has any more > right to be a member than any other, and there is no one at all here who has any > more right to assert his/her understanding of the Dhamma than any other. The > only criteria for membership should be respect for the Dhamma and respect for > one's fellow beings. No one here has the authority to judge one's "Dhamma > credentials"! Please don't permit anyone here to arrogate such authority to > themselves. James: I'm not really doing any of that. I'm saying that for the peace of all involved, as it is explained in the Cunda sutta, the value of meditation practice and the value of study must both be upheld. If not, there is bound to be hurt feelings all around. And I'm not changing my mind about this!! Cunda spelled it out in black and white in his teaching! > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > The hardline anti-meditators are in the minority among the 770 > members, I am sure. James: Every single person in this group (with the exception of Christine) who is a follower of KS is anti-meditation. Some are more blunt than others, but their message is loud and clear to me. Is it fair or appropriate to require that they change their > understanding of the Dhamma because you and I disagree with it? James: Yes. Cunda said so in his sutta. Maybe you should read it again. I have no doubt > they are wrong in their view. But it is theirs. I have neither the right nor the > ability to command a change in their perspective. James: I am not COMMANDING that they change their perspective either. I am just saying that their type of perspective caused dissention during the Buddha's time (or shortly thereafter...I'm unsure of the timing of the sutta) and that it is causing dissention now. If they cannot follow the very wise and worthwhile advice of Cunda, and recognize the value of meditation practice, then I'm not going to have anything more to do with them. I will meet Sarah and Jon to say thanks and adios amigos! ;-) > ------------------------------------- Metta, James #61878 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello sarahprocter... Hi Peter, Thanks for sharing your very interesting introduction. i'm sure that even when your interest and practice seemed to slip away, you would have continued to consider, question and develop more understanding of what you had read and learnt during the early days. I wonder which monastery in Sri Lanka it was where you stayed for 2 years and when it was? I seem to remember that a couple of other members at least have introduced themselves as being from Texas, but they may not be active for now. I just saw on CNN that it's around 35C there now -- about the same as here in Hong Kong, so you have my sympathies (as do those in European cities too!). Thanks also for telling us about your Tibetan friends and the visit to the Cambodian temple. Folks here come from a broad range of traditions and religions and parts of the world. I think you'll fit in well. I'll just draw your attention to the entire back-up of the archives (largely thanks to Connie's painstaking work) which can be used for searching or off-line scrolling: www.dhammastudygroup.org Also, selected messages under particular topics, kept aside by the moderators, can be found under 'Useful Posts' in the files section on the website. Please join in any threads or start your own anytime. I greatly look forward to hearing your reflections and take on suttas or other texts. Metta, Sarah ====== --- Peter Tomlinson wrote: > Hello to all, > I am Peter Tomlinson, and I live in Dallas TX. Presently I am > associated with a Tibetan Vajrayana shrine, although I am Theravadan. > Many years ago I, like many others during the 60's read Buddhist texts, > Dhammapada, etc. and joined a Buddhist discussion group in Laguna Beach > California. The person who held the group had contact with a monastery > in Sri Lanka and so we wrote to them and got permission to visit. > > When I went there I stayed 2 years reading studying meditating and > practicing Theravada Buddhist ways. Upon returning to the states this > gradually slipped away and until recently I did not practice at all. > For the last year or so I, having renewed my Triple Refuge, have read > the Suttas, in English, begun to meditate, and take Sila daily. <....> #61879 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:28 am Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting ken_aitch Hi Scott, I hope you won't mind if I answer your rhetorical questions. You might have trouble getting rid of me for the time being. I am stuck indoors undergoing a rather extreme treatment - a bit like a skin scrub - for some very minor skin cancers. I am not allowed prolonged sun exposure, or to go surfing. If I so much as show my face in public there could be one of those 'I am not an animal!' kinds of stampede. ------------- <. . .> S: > And if there is "right view," as there surely is, then, of course, there is wrong view. The thing is, though, it is all impersonal, isn't it? ------------ It is. And, although I don't want to sound flippant, I am tempted to ask, 'What does it matter? Since there are only dhammas - none of which is a self or pertains to a self - who cares whether there is right view or not?' (Probably not the right attitude to take, but just a thought.) ---------------- <. . .> S: > I wonder how else to express the dichotomy? A rhetorical question, I guess, but one can even go about vipassana bhavana in the wrong way if one is out there trying to have understanding here and now. ---------------- That's right - one can be out there thinking, "Quickly, remember a bit of Dhamma so there can be right understanding here and now!" But there is light at the end of the tunnel. As we lose our desire for results, I think we find ourselves, more and more, studying and considering Dhamma purely for the love of it. ------------------------- S: > There is "a way of understanding" in which pa~n~na arises as conditions conduce, or the idea that there is a way one can go about causing understanding. -------------------------- There are proponents of both ways here at DSG. We can't all be right, but so what? There are only dhammas! ------------- S: > But then, you already know that. Just thinking out loud. ------------- Same here. As Howard remarked recently, we sometimes sound as though we are pontificating, but if that's the way it comes out so be it. Worse things happen at sea. :-) Ken H #61880 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:58 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 497- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== The Visuddhimagga mentions other aspects of equanimity, which pertain to samatha, namely the specific quality of equanimity in the third stage of rúpa-jhåna (of the fourfold system and the fourth stage of the fivefold system(2)), which is called equanimity of jhåna (jhåna-upekkhå)(3), and equanimity in the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, which is called purifying equanimity(4). At each subsequent stage of jhåna the jhånacitta and its accompanying cetasikas are calmer, purer and more refined. Each of the aspects of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga is different. Equanimity as “specific neutrality”, equanimity as one of the divine abidings, equanimity of jhåna and purifying equanimity are all different aspects of tatramajjhattatå. *** 2) See Chapter 8 for the fourfold system and the fivefold system of jhåna. 3) See Vis. IV, 177. In this stage of jhåna the grosser jhåna-factors of applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicåra) and rapture (píti) have been abandoned (see Chapter 8 and 11). There is still pleasant feeling (sukha), but no attachment to it; there is equanimity even towards the highest bliss. 4) In this stage also the jhåna-factor of happy feeling has been abandoned; there is indifferent feeling and “purity of mindfulness due to equanimity” (Book of Analysis, Chapter 12, Analysis of Jhåna, §597, and Vis. IV, 194). ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61881 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice jonoabb Hi James and All Not directly related to your post, but Sarah and I had an interesting experience this morning. We were in a taxi and, as is our habit, were reading to each other from the print-outs of the latest set of posts. We stopped at some traffic lights. Sarah and I had just remarked to each other how lucky we were with the taxi driver (polite, not too speedy, happily turned down the volume on the local radio and his 2-way radio, etc), when he said, in perfect English,"'Excuse me, but are you talking about Buddhism. I heard you say 'samsara' and 'jhana'." As you can imagine, we nearly fell out of the cab in surprise! It turns out that Eric is *very* interested in Theravada Buddhism and had just done a several-day retreat. He is particularly interested in meditation and sees that as the best way of getting to the heart of the teachings. Naturally we told him about DSG and have invited him to join. Anyway, this little anecdote is just to indicate that anyone genuinely interested in the teachings is welcome here. Of course, there is a range of views expressed in the discussion, and anyone giving a view can expect to have it questioned, sometimes at length, but inevitably by reference to the recorded teachings. I think that is as it should be, too. Jon PS In case you're wondering, yes, I warned Eric that I am seen as being 'anti-meditation'!!. He didn't seem to be the least concerned about that. We discussed briefly the idea of 'meditation' in daily life. As we parted when he dropped us off (at the beach) I said we were going to do some surfing meditation. I could see that was a novel concept to him ;-)) buddhatrue wrote: >Hi All, > >In light of the recent Herman controversy and the bad feelings it >brought out, I want to revisit a sutta which is periodically quoted >in this group (for good reason) and following the quote I have some >personal comments: > >... > #61882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice nilovg Hi Jon, I enjoyed your experience. It was the right time for the driver to hear jhana, samsara. I hope he joins. Nina. Op 27-jul-2006, om 11:10 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Not directly related to your post, but Sarah and I had an interesting > experience this morning. We were in a taxi #61883 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/27/06 2:55:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Wow! What a great sutta! You say it's been posted > periodically here, > >but I was not familiar with it, or had forgotten it. It's > terrific!! > >--------------------------------------------- > > James: Hmmm...I'm surprised that you don't remember it. But, I'm > glad that you liked it. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I recall another sutta that is similar, but not this one (unless I read a very different translation). --------------------------------------- > > . > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > That has been my impression of some of the admirers of Khun > Sujin on > >DSG, but not all. > > James: You know some of the admirers of KS who meditate or speak > highly of meditation? Who? I haven't seen that in this group. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It was my impression that there are a few. I'm not sure of the specific people. Larry, maybe? Possibly Rob Moult? If I'm not wrong, I invite those admirers of KS who do meditate in some manner to announce it. (Don't be scared - no one's listening! LOLOL!) ------------------------------------------------- > > Also, of the 770 subscribers to DSG, how many of them are > >"followers" of Khun Sujin? > > James: I don't know; I don't even know how many of them actually > read the posts! ;-)) I was just speaking in general of the active > members. > > And it happens to be true that a good number of the > >active posters here are meditators, though, with a few exceptions, > far from > >being the lay version of "jhana monks". So, I think your negative > assessment with > >regard to the Buddha's solution on DSG is overly pessimistic > > James: I really don't follow your logic here. Yes, the meditators > in this group aren't "jhana monks" and the admirers of KS > aren't "scholarly monks". But I think that the lesson of the sutta > still applies to us. If we can't see the value of the other side, > and speak highly of the other side, it lessens us all. ---------------------------------------- Howard: After I wrote that last I realized that it was misleading, but I didn't bother to reformulate it. The bit about jhana monks was an aside to point out that only a few of the meditators had mastery of the jhanas, and it should have been skipped or parenthesized. What I wrote should have been formulated as follows: <> The "jhana monk" business hid the logic; sorry. ------------------------------------------------ > > >--------------------------------------------- > > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > How many members of DSG actually tell you that? > > James: I have been told on several occassions that if I believe in > the value of meditation practice I hold wrong view. Where have you > been?? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The question was a matter of how many, not of whether it ever happens. Of course some folks have said that. They believe that. That's their opinion. IMO, they're dead wrong. So what? Do you expect them not to say what they think is a minsunderstanding of the Dhamma on another's part? I feel free to speak up and say what I think. Look at that last post of mine to KenO. Did I hold back on what I said to him? Do I hold back with KenH? Do I hold back with Jon? For that matter, look at what I wrote to Nina not so long ago with regard to what I considered was her atta-terminology. I have enormous respect and fondess for Nina, and I feel deferential to her due to her for having a few more years than even I do (LOL!), but I didn't hold back on my evaluation or walk on eggshells even with her. Should we expect those who disagree with us to be silent or strictly circumspect? ---------------------------------------------------- > > And in any case, why > >would you willingly let bigotry and fixed view determine things > here? > > James: Well, as Phil has pointed out on several occassions, it is > their group. Why not form another group which studies and discusses > the Abhidhamma in light of meditation practice? I nominate you > Howard to be the founder of such a group!! :-) ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, here is the heart of it. You say it is "their" group. I say "To hell with such an attitude". I consider DSG to be *my* group as much as anyone's with the exception of the owners. The origin of the group is one matter, but only one matter. BTW, you may recall that I had a group for a while, hmmm? -------------------------------------- > > >-------------------------------------------- > > > >> > >>There is no reason to continue in a forum where I, and those who > >>also practice meditation, am so entirely rejected. > >> > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > First of all, you are *not* entirely rejected here. By > whom? As far as > >I'm concerned, you are very, very welcome here. > > James: I don't know; it's just the way I feel. Active participation > makes me very anxious and nervous. If I read the posts I am bound > to come across one which really irritates the devil out of me! > ------------------------------------- Howard: So what! "Get over it!!" (LOLOL!) ------------------------------------- If I > > write a post, I cringe to think of how the members will respond. It > isn't a greatly healthy environment because there is such a > polarization of views on this one subject (and the Cunda sutta > speaks to the same thing). -------------------------------------- Howard: If there are those with whom you find conversing unpleasant, then converse less with them and more with others. -------------------------------------- > > And I think my opinion is as > >important as any other member here! And so is yours! In my > opinion, other than > >Jon and Sarah who own and moderate the list (with great expertise > and much > >gentleness and lovingkindness), I believe there is no member who > has any more > >right to be a member than any other, and there is no one at all > here who has any > >more right to assert his/her understanding of the Dhamma than any > other. The > >only criteria for membership should be respect for the Dhamma and > respect for > >one's fellow beings. No one here has the authority to judge > one's "Dhamma > >credentials"! Please don't permit anyone here to arrogate such > authority to > >themselves. > > James: I'm not really doing any of that. I'm saying that for the > peace of all involved, as it is explained in the Cunda sutta, the > value of meditation practice and the value of study must both be > upheld. If not, there is bound to be hurt feelings all around. And > I'm not changing my mind about this!! Cunda spelled it out in black > and white in his teaching! -------------------------------------- Howard: If the analogy - not such a good one - is to be made between DSG and the Sangha, did Cunda recommend disrobing as a solution? -------------------------------------- > > >---------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The hardline anti-meditators are in the minority among the > 770 > >members, I am sure. > > James: Every single person in this group (with the exception of > Christine) who is a follower of KS is anti-meditation. Some are > more blunt than others, but their message is loud and clear to me. > > Is it fair or appropriate to require that they change their > >understanding of the Dhamma because you and I disagree with it? > > James: Yes. Cunda said so in his sutta. Maybe you should read it > again. -------------------------------------- Howard: I used the word 'require', James. And that pertained to particular Dhamma understanding, not comportment. Mutual respect and kindness SHOULD be required, and when it is missing, others should point that out. ------------------------------------- > > I have no doubt > >they are wrong in their view. But it is theirs. I have neither the > right nor the > >ability to command a change in their perspective. > > James: I am not COMMANDING that they change their perspective > either. I am just saying that their type of perspective caused > dissention during the Buddha's time (or shortly thereafter...I'm > unsure of the timing of the sutta) and that it is causing dissention > now. If they cannot follow the very wise and worthwhile advice of > Cunda, and recognize the value of meditation practice, then I'm not > going to have anything more to do with them. I will meet Sarah and > Jon to say thanks and adios amigos! ;-) --------------------------------------- Howard: I understand Cunda to have recommended mutual respect. One cannot command himself or herself to believe something. What one CAN do is give a fair hearing and consideration, and to truly consider the points made by others and to attempt suggested practices without wearing blinders. But people, of course, are resistent to that, as we all cling to our views. I understand that you are becoming uncomfortable on DSG. I feel discomfort in some conversations as well. And there is always the inclination towards avoiding discomfort. But I think that avoidance needs to be avoided, unless the reasons for it are of overarching importance. One can always find a teaching that can be used to support our inclinations, and I think one needs to be careful not to act out of aversion. OTOH, when, after careful consideration, a context seems to be clearly harmful, well, I agree it makes sense to change things. I hope you will give the matter a bit more consideration to be sure you are doing the best thing for yourself. Of course, when you are sure, then it is appropriate to act accordingly. --------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------------- > > > >> > >>Metta, > >>James > >> > >================== > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, > James > ========================= With metta (LOL, the 4th "metta" in a row), Howard #61884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice nilovg Hi Howard (and James), you made me have a good laugh. No need to walk on eggshells. I appreciate it anyway that you time and again come back with a question: how is this or that in the Abhidhamma? Meditation, well we had some posts about the two meanings of jhaana that can be translated as: meditation or contemplation. This was the Co. to the sutta where the Buddha said: meditate (jhayati), here are the roots of the trees. See U.P. posts. Coming up with the tiika on jhana-condition). Jhana with the object (the meditation subjects) and jhana with the characteristics, the three general characteristics. You and James discussed the Cunda sutta, but do not forget Sarah's post on the co. It is more intricate than you would think at first sight. When we read suttas we have to be careful not to simplify them too much. And do you know that one of the meditation subjects of samatha is recollection of the teachings? I do contemplate on the Abhidhamma, also each time I write on the tiika of the Visuddhimagga. But I do not need to select a specific time, I can contemplate in the kitchen. And then there is vipassana bhaavana, no need to select place or time, the dhamma is always with us, all around. Also, remember the posts on meditation subjects for every occasion, death, foulness, recollections of the Triple Gem. Gratefulness and respect to the Buddha Scott wrote about, is that not a meditation for every occasion? I do understand that there are different opinions at dsg, but, James, remember what I wrote offline: I am disinclined to think of different camps or different parties. It does not help to think too much of people, rather, think of dhammas. What is the use of thinking: heis doing this, he is doing that. Before we know conceit arises. Comparing is conceit. Your friend 'who has a few more years than you' (ha, ha), Nina. Op 27-jul-2006, om 14:46 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For that matter, look at what I wrote to Nina not so long ago with > regard to > what I considered was her atta-terminology. I have enormous respect > and > fondess for Nina, and I feel deferential to her due to her for > having a few more > years than even I do (LOL!), but I didn't hold back on my > evaluation or walk on > eggshells even with her. > Should we expect those who disagree with us to be silent or strictly > circumspect? #61885 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:01 am Subject: Re: What did Sarah say to Betty? philofillet Hi Sarah > > Clue no 1: It wasn't anything K.Sujin would ever, ever say:-) If Betty, or anyone, was feeling so overwhelmed by harsh vipaka I would recommend that the "just understand" approach could be helped along by a little gentle cheating. If we are physical wrecks, if we collapse due to stress, we can't carry on with our pilgrimages or anything else. I think since you practice yoga, you understand how much we can do to help ourselves physiologically through breathing exercises for example. When I am feeling overwhelmed, I do visualizations and breathing exercises. There are scientifically proven physiological benefits for this kind of thing. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the Buddha's teaching (as I think most forms of feelgood meditation do not) but they can give us physical strength the way a good, nutritious meal do. So I guess you encouraged Betty to do something yoga-ish to get her physically refreshed/relaxed so that she could carry on her pilgrimage. Phil #61886 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting (to Jon) philofillet Hi Jon > Not sure what phonetic system you use, but 'mai phak, mai phien' should > do it. > > I think 'phak' as in 'phak-phorn' 'to rest', 'phien' as in energy (?, not > sure). 'Mai' of course means 'not'. > > Sorry I can't be more helpful, I no longer have a Thai dictionary. Thanks. Could you add anything about the meaning in the context of the talk, and this thread? I think it was from last year in India. > > > I've started studying Thai now and then by listening to some > >podcasts. I used to know a smattering. Fun to get back into it. I can't > >get enough of Acharn Sujin - wanna listen to her in Thai too, someday. > > > > > > Great, Phil. It's worth the effort (but would have been impossible for > me if not for living in Thailand). Yeah, but you never know. I am never all *that* far from screwing up my marriage and ending up in Thailand! I'd like to retire there, but Naomi's not so keen on that... Phil #61887 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Phra Dhammadaro on perceiving impermanence or just thinking about it. philofillet Hi all On my way home tonight I heard a very interesting bit of a talk from Phra Dhammadaro on a very subtle topic. He was talking about impermanence, and asked a man who commented on seeing objects of desire as impermanent whether he could *really* understand them as impermanent. The thinking we do about impermanence is just that, it is not the impermanence taught by the Buddha. Then the more interesting part. He pointed out that some people try to *see* impermanence, think they can see visible object falling away, perhaps a moment of darkness, and then visible object again. We will not *see* impermanence in this way. It is to be understood through the mind door. And then he talked about how much lobha there is, how much desire, behind this effort we make to try so hard to see how processes work. At the time there is a lot of thinking but there is not awareness of the dhamma that is there at such times - lobha. I think this applies to a lot of the hard, concentrated thinking that we indulge in. One might think that dhammas are being directy experienced, directly understood - one might fail to see how much lobha there is motivating this intentional investigation. Acharn or Nina or someone wrote "we should not try to know too much - it takes us away from the present moment." Lobha takes us away from the present dhamma thousands of times a day, I'd say. Phil #61888 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Dhammadaro on perceiving impermanence or just thinking about it. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/27/06 10:46:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Then the more interesting part. He pointed out that some people > try to *see* impermanence, think they can see visible object falling > away, perhaps a moment of darkness, and then visible object again. > We will not *see* impermanence in this way. It is to be understood > through the mind door. ==================== Really! As concept? I'd like to know more about this venerable. Does he meditate as far as you or anyone knows? In the stage called "bhanga" cessation is directly observed. With metta, Howard #61889 From: connie Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:34 am Subject: sandhi nichiconn without further comment before i head off to work & as long as no one's listening anyway, this morning's -uh- subject follows: THE ALL-EMBRACING NET OF VIEWS Part Three: The Method of the Exegetical Treatises The Sixteen Modes of Conveyance 6. The Mode of Conveying the Fourfold Array (catubyuuhahaara). (iv) The Sequence (sandhi). (f) The "sequence of teaching" is the coherence between the teaching (in this sutta) and the teaching (in other suttas.) It may be illustrated by the following examples. The teaching, "If others speak in dispraise of me ... you should not give way to animosity in your heart," this links up with the simile of the saw: "If bhikkhus, robbers should cut you up limb for limb with a double-handled saw, he who feels anger in his heart would not be a follower of my teaching" (M.21). "You would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves" - this links up with the teaching that "beings are the owners of their kamma, heirs to their kamma" (M.135). "Would you be able to recognize whether their statements are rightly or wrongly spoken?" - this links up with the simile of the raft: "Even (wholesome dhammas must be abandoned, bhikkhus, much more then (unwholesome) dhammas" (M.22). "You would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves" - this links up with the teaching: "The greedy man does not know the meaning" (It.III.4.9). "Trifling and insignificant matters, the minor details of mere moral virtue" - this links up with passages showing the inferiority of virtue to the jhaanas, since even the first jhaana is of greater fruit and greater benefit than moral virtue, eg: "When he abides having entered the first jhaana - this, brahmin, is a sacrifice less difficult and less troublesome than the previous sacrifice, but of greater fruit and greater benefit" (D.5). "Having abandoned the destruction of life" - this links up with such teachings as: "The recluse Gotama is virtuous, he is endowed with wholesome ways of conduct" (D.4) . "There are other dhamms, deep," etc - this links up with other texts illustrating the profundity of the Buddha's knowledge through its penetration of dhammas possessing profundity of objective domain, eg: "This Dhamma discovered by me is deep," etc. (M.26). "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are speculators about the past ... speculators about the future" - these link up with the teaching in the Pa~ncattaya Sutta (M.102). And the passage: "Having understood the origin of feelins ... the Tathaagata is emancipated through non-clinging" - this links up with the teaching (in the same sutta): "This is conditioned and gross. But there is a cessation of formations. Having unerstood that there is, perceiving the escape from this, the Tathaagata has transcended this." "That is only the feeling of those who do not know and do not see, the agitation and vacillation of those who are immersed in craving" - this links up with the teaching (again in the same sutta): "That these honourable ones, apart from faith, apart from preference, apart from hearsay, apart from ratiocination, apart from reflective acquiescence in a view, will have pure and lucid personal knowledge (of their doctrines) - this is impossible. And since they have no pure and lucid personal knowledge (of their doctrines), whatever section of knowledge these honourable recluses and brahmins (claim to) clarify, this can be declared to be mere clinging on their part." "That too is conditioned by contact" - this links up with the following teachings: "Dependent on the eye and visible forms, eye-consciousness arise. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling arises; with feeling as condition, craving arises; and with craving as condition, clinging arises" (S.II.9.4); and: "These dhammas, friend, are rooted in desire, originated by attention, subsumed under contact, and they converge upon feeling" (A.VIII.9.3). "When a bhikkhu understands the six bases of contact" - this links up with the teaching: "When, Aananda, a bhikkhu does not regard feeling as the self, or perception, or mental formations or consciousness - not regarding them thus he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging he is not agitated, and free from agitation, he inwardly attains to nibbaana" (untraced). "All these are trapped in this net with its sixty-two divisions" - this links up with the teaching: "Whoever declares (these views), all declare views belonging to these five groups or to a certain one of them" (M.102). "With the breakup of the body ... gods and men shall see him no more" - this links up with the following teaching: Just as a flame flung into the wind, Upasiva - said the Lord, Flies to its end, no more to enter concept's range, The sage set free, released from the mental-group, Attains the end, no more to enter concept's range. (Sn.v.1074) 7. ... <> peace, connie #61890 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:38 am Subject: Re: Phra Dhammadaro on perceiving impermanence or just thinking about it. philofillet Hi Howard > > We will not *see* impermanence in this way. It is to be understood > > through the mind door. > ==================== > Really! As concept? Hmm. Let me transcribe the whole passage - maybe tomorrow. It was much too subtle for me to try to paraphrase. I shouldn't have done that, especially since I was listening to a baseball game at the time. > I'd like to know more about this venerable. Does he meditate as far as > you or anyone knows? I'm sure he did at some point. He'd dead now so I wouldn't worry about it. >In the stage called "bhanga" cessation is directly > observed. OK. This is way beyond me, of course. Maybe Phra Dhammadaro was wrong. I will try to transcribe but I certainly don't want to get into a doctrinary dispute. The point is that people of undeveloped understanding (all of us here, I'd say, to play it safe) should know their limits. Otherwise lobha draws them away from the understanding that they *do* have the potential to develop. Phil #61891 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the commentary > notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples (i.e at > least sotapannas). The first group have become enlightened without the > development of jhanas and the second group with jhanas. > Hallo Sarah I remember we have discussed about this Sutta, and the meaning of it in the never-ending DSG-discussion. Perhaps you have seen parts of the discussion between Jon and me about the place of commentaries in Sutta study. So let me say is short and clear:I don't belief the commentators who state that this Sutta is about ariyan monks, are correct. And more important: this Sutta we can aplly to ourselves! Metta Joop #61892 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna ashkenn2k Hi Mateesha > > M: I have now quoted several sutta saying that panna is for the > concentrated and not for the un-concentrated. k: I have also pasted a lot of sutta that one does not need concentration to be enlighted. > > M: My dear Ken. Your idea of suffering, everyman on earth has had. > It is nothing new to buddhism. The Buddhist bit is when it > say '...in short the five aggregates are suffering'. This is not a > simple summary. If you can see each aggragate arising and passing > away, you realise that due to it's impermanence, and when you keep > on seeing the world around you which you thought was solid, > breaking up infront of your eyes, everything you wanted to grasp now turning out to be a ungraspable mirage, you realise it has the > characteristic of dukkha. To see that every moment is suffering, you need vipassana. Normally you will see that most moments are neutral. But this is simply confusion due to avijja. In vipassana, which is a different, focused, way of experiencing reality, you will see that every moment which arises and passes away is suffering (or better: unsatisfactory - best: dukkha). k: Nope to see moment of suffering we dont need vipassana. When the body is in pain, that is suffering. When we are angry, there is unplesant feeling, that is suffering. Or do we do this like telling the moment of anger dont arise first, I need to go to vipassana to know that you are impermament and suffering and dukkha. So the first two hours you are meditiating that is practising, how about the next two hours? If at the point of the next two hours you are not meditating, anger arise, will you wait for yourself the next day the two hours in practise to be in concentration to see anger as the three characteristics or do we just see it as the three characteristics. k: What is mindfullness? Is it waiting in concentration then there is mindfullness or is it better mindfullness can arise when the three akusala arise. Do Buddha said that panna can only arise during concentration? Then you should look at SN 22.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta <> Do you see any part in the sutta mention that seclusion or somewhere in thick jungle, meditation then gain enlightement? There are still a few more examples in the cannon. > M: "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where > > a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly > meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to> the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness. > (from the same sutta) > > "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a > > monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with > discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading > > to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually > present: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... > This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice > leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of > discernment. > > > M: The two definitions of sati and panna are very different. Right mindfulness is categorised under concentration, not panna (in the three trainings scheme). k: I dont know where you get your defintion of the three training schemes. Panna is already inside because it is under right view and right thought. I have already define right view. Right conduct is not possible with right view and right concentration is not possible with right conduct. > So why should someone remain '...focused on the body in & of itself > — ardent, alert, & mindful..' This does not sound like he is mindfulof panna (atleast not of a tilakkana level), does it? He is simply aware of the body. He is ardent. What is there to be ardent about if sati simply arises with panna? Viriya is often cited before sati, saying that it leads to sati (noble eightfold path, five faculties). What is the point in being ardent and having viriya if panna arises with sati anyway? Besides we can give rise to panna by having viriya, it arises when it wishes! But we can give rise to sati with viriya. k: If we can give rise to viriya, we all be better than Buddha himself because it is right view than right thought and not vice versa. Just like it is latency that cause ignorance and not the other way round. Buddha state it very clearly in 4NT, in other suttas, Right view comes first. Your definition of panna is very small, only encompasses panna as being enlightement which is ulimate panna. Panna is right view and that is explain in many times in the sutta. Are you saying that now you understand dhamma as not self as explain in the sutta, that is not called mundane right view? > > He is 'alert'. It simply says he is alert - no mention of panna. It > > would be superflous to talk just about sati in such a detailed > manner is all important panna is arising at this very moment. Yet, > panna is described seperately in a different manner. > 'remains mindful....putting aside greed & distress with reference to > the world.' > Why should he put aside anything? Panna can arise in any instance. Yet the sutta says that something has to be done before we can follow the satipattana. Where is the missing link in our understanding? Panna is a flash and arises suddenly. What requires us to put aside greed and distress is not panna, but sati. More proof that there is prolonged panna (not a just flash here and > there) needed to do what is in the satipattana. > k: Is it possible for one to be mindfulness not to be alert? Mindulness is the opposite of forgetness. So when one is mindful, one is alert. Let me explain what is putting aside - Mindfulness is call foundation. Foundation for kusala to arise. That is why it is call protection. Protecting citta from being defile by defilements. It is at times call as the guardain of the mind etc. Hence when sati arise, aksuala cannot arise. And when akusala cannot arise, it can only meant two things, sati must arise with kusala with panna or kusala without panna. If it arise with kusala without panna, then there is no point learning Buddhism because those teachers that taught Buddha the jhanas will have become Arahants. They already practise the eight attainments even before Buddha and they taught Buddha. So that leaves us only with kusala with panna. > Surely you agree that direct experiencing is required for > > later developments of panna??? k: Direct experience can be anywhere anything, even while we are watching our favourite TV show :-) M:If you stay in a meditation retreat for 4 days do you know what happens tothe mind? It forgets the chatter of the outside world and it settles - there is peace - there is continued mindfulness. This is not just my experience but the experience of many hundreds if not> thousands who have gone through the centre where I trained. I trust it more than any commentary because I know beyond a doubt that it happens. It just makes it easier to understand the suttas. k: Nope. I think Buddha teachers are a better meditator than most of us because they attain immaterial jhanas :-) But I dont see them become Arahants before Buddha. > > M: Right view of a mundane person is so rudimentary. You can see it > in the MN114. We havent even got to the development of faculties > required to go to the next level panna. If you want to send emails > to dsg till your dying day, and that is your panna, all I can say > is I feel very sorry for you. It is truly your kamma, even though > others might try their damndest nothing might come of it. k: Nope that is why a lot of people like to talk to us because we are one bunch of obstinate people who likes to say panna can be developed without mediation :-) And if you talk to us long, you realise that we seldom doubtful about why this term is used in this sutta means this and mean that in another sutta. A good eg is perception :-). It can meant wisdom in another sutta or simply perception in another. And you also realise people ask us about the meanings. Let me tell you a secret why we know so much term with so much confidence, all these credits goes to the commentary and Abhidhamma. And not to forget people like you because you spur us to read more, study more or learn more into the commentary and Abhidhamma :-). Cheers Ken O #61893 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard Please allow me to say a few more words. When we are experience different experiences, could we denied that different experiences, their characterisitcs, their uniqueness? Do these uniqueness represent an agent? If dhamma is empty of a core, how is it be visible? How could a feeling be experience if it is without substance? If it is without susbstance, how could one differentiate the different feelings we felt? If it is without substance, then this experience should be imaginery. To me what is imaginery should be non-existence, then isn't this veering towards nihilism? Its alright for me if you can dont reply :-) Dont forget my roots are from Mahayana also, so this theory of without a core is very familiar :-) Cheers Ken #61894 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism & Solipsism (was death of dear ones.) ashkenn2k Hi Sarah thanks you for you constant encouragement. I am trying very hard to read and write post in this forum nowadays I am busy with work. Hence most of my post have no Abhidhamma quotes because there is little time to look up for it. Even though sometimes I lose sleep reading and writing them, it is really worth it because it is important to have reminders of Buddhism daily as it really helps me in my daily life esp with the help of dhamma friends. I miss going to Bangkok and meeting all of you. Hopefully by next year when my new job becomes permanent, I will go up to bangkok and who knows going to India with you guys :-) I seen there is some encouraging signs that some people have come dinosaurs, I hope more will. When one become a dinsoaur, the view is so much clearer :-) Terms in the sutta suddenly become very clear even if one do not read the commentary :-) Meanings of the dhammas become sweeters. So many good things to describe even if I will to write it one day, it will not end. Cheers! Ken O --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > You've been writing so many really helpful posts (imho) including > many gem > quotes. I'm really impressed by your keen attention to detail and > the good > examples you give. Here's one on the difficult subject of the > characteristic of a citta appearing to a subsequent citta: > > --- Ken O wrote: > > > k: Maybe the wording of citta becomes an object of another citta > is > > not properly explain. When a citta becomes an object, it does > not > > meant the citta still exist. It is the experiencing of the > mindstate > > (cittas and cetasikas) that has become the object of the next > citta. > > Just like a strong liking of an object, the pleasant feelings can > be > > an object for a numerous citta process. Even though the previous > > pleasant feeling has fallen away, the experiencing of the > pleasant > > object has become a strong paccaya for the subsequent mental > process. > > It becomes an object for the subsequent mental process. > .... > S: I thought you explained this very clearly (#61001). Also in the > next > message (#61002), I liked the way you so kindly encouraged Joop to > take a > break if he feels inclined to do so, but to 'come back at times and > say > hello'. You went on to say so well that 'here in DSG, we treasure > friendship and there will be dhamma friends around to discuss > dhammas. It > does not matter that we agree or we do not, what matters is that > dhamma is > shared and learn with each other.' Just my sentiments, too. > > I was also interested in your comment that you found it 'a > gruelling > process' at the start. You certainly persevered in coming to terms > with > all the details through your studies, reflections and lots of > questions:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Are you in Singapore or Brunei or somewhere else these days? > You > referred nostalgically to being in Bkk in 2004. We'll be there mid > August > for discussions, Azita and others too. Also v.briefly at the beg of > Sept. > Let me know if you (or anyone else!) want the dates etc. > ================== > > > #61895 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Phra Dhammadaro on perceiving impermanence or just thinking abo... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/27/06 11:41:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > >>We will not *see* impermanence in this way. It is to be > understood > >>through the mind door. > >==================== > > Really! As concept? > > Hmm. Let me transcribe the whole passage - maybe tomorrow. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Great. Thanks. :-) Maybe he's thinking of the operation of pa~n~na, which, in this case, would amount to a clear and correct understanding of what is observed. In fact, as I think further about the venerable's statement, I am starting to realize that he was probably correct. For example, a visual object ceases, being immediately followed by another sense-door object, say another visual object or perhaps a sound. When the first ceases the second arises. But the cessation and the arising, while real events, are not 5-sense-door phenomena. In particular, the cessation is not something observed through the eye door any other 5-sense doorway. Actually, I guess that cessation, must be a mind-door object, and the recognition of it must be via pa~n~na, a direct, uninfected sa~n~na. ------------------------------------- It was > > much too subtle for me to try to paraphrase. I shouldn't have done > that, especially since I was listening to a baseball game at the > time. > > > > I'd like to know more about this venerable. Does he > meditate as far as > >you or anyone knows? > > I'm sure he did at some point. He'd dead now so I wouldn't worry > about it. ------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Well, I hope all is going smoothly for him! ------------------------------------ > > > >In the stage called "bhanga" cessation is directly > >observed. > > OK. This is way beyond me, of course. Maybe Phra Dhammadaro was > wrong. > ------------------------------------ Howard: No, I think I was. Wisdom would be very active at that stage, and there would be a rapid switching back & forth between 5-sense-door objects and mind-door objects.l believe I was precipitous in questiong his assertion. ------------------------------------- I will try to transcribe but I certainly don't want to get > > into a doctrinary dispute. The point is that people of undeveloped > understanding (all of us here, I'd say, to play it safe) should know > their limits. Otherwise lobha draws them away from the understanding > that they *do* have the potential to develop. -------------------------------------- Howard: I think doctrinal disputes are a waste of time for the most part. It's better to listen to a position and think it over and consider it as a possibility, especially in terms of one's own experience. There is an enormous amount that one can learn from one's own experience, I think, but the problem is that we usually leave that experience unreviewed and unanalyzed. ---------------------------------- > > Phil > > ================ With metta, Howard #61896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:07 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 16. nilovg Dear friends, Here are some old letters to Susan Elbaum Jootla Rob K put on his forum. They were only in typewritten form. Letter to Susan Elbaum Jootla. 25 January 1988. Part I. Dear Susan Thank you very much for your kind letter. I prepared a package of books and some Dhamma letters I wrote to different people and am sending these by separate post. You are no strangers to me since I read Susan's book Investigation for Insight. I took up the book again in order to get to know you more, before I answer your questions. I do not know where to begin. Maybe I tell you first about what I have been doing. We were with a group of Dhamma friends several times in India. Our friend in Dhamma, Khun Sujin, a Thai lady, was always with us. We vsisted the holy places and talked about Dhamma. About visible object, sound, odor, flavor, tangible object, about seeing, hearing, tasting and the experiences of tangible object, about thinking. About all realities in daily life. About the defilements which arise on account of the objects, much more often than one would think. We talked about sense door and mind-door, about the difference between nama and rupa, which has to be known not in theory but through direct experience. But you realise it should be known through direct experience as I get from your book. You also know that Dhamma vicaya, investigation of Dhamma, is very necessary. That we need to listen again and again, consider again and again. Then it sinks in, it is never lost but accumulated. And thus slowly slowly conditions are being built up for the arising of the eightfold path, one day. But we do not know when. As you write in the beginning of your book: "Insight is often conceived as a magical experience suddenly just happening and instantly making all things clear. But, by and large, insight develops slowly and gradually through the careful process of observation, investigation and anaylsis of phenomena that lies behind their apparence, conventional truth is distinctly and indubitably perceived." We always talk a great deal about conventional truth , samutti sacca, and absolute truth, paramattha sacca. As soon as there has been seeing we are absorbed in shape and form, stories about what is seen. But also thinking about conventional truth, and attachment are realities which have to be known. Otherwise there is no hope that they can ever be eradicated. Khun Sujin says that she is not our teacher, she is our good friend in Dhamma. She would not say ‘follow me’. She wants us to check ourselves whether what she explains is according to the truth. Not the person, the teacher, is important, it is Dhamma that counts. ****** Nina. #61897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:10 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, 35. nilovg Dear friends, As regards akusala kamma-patha through the body, killing is done with dosa-múla-citta. Stealing can sometimes be performed with lobha-múla- citta and sometimes with dosa-múla-citta. It is done with lobha-múla- citta if one wishes to take what belongs to someone else in order to enjoy it oneself. It is done with dosa-múla-citta if one wishes someone else to suffer damage. Sexual misbehaviour is performed with lobha-múla-citta. As far as the akusala kamma-pathas through speech are concerned, lying, slandering and frivolous talk are performed with lobha-múla- citta if one wishes to obtain something for oneself, or if one wishes to endear oneself to other people. As regards lying, we may think that there is no harm in a so-called ``white lie'' or a lie said for fun. However, all kinds of lies are motivated by akusala cittas. We read in the ``Discourse on an Exhortation to Råhula at Ambalaììhikå'' (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 61, Bhikkhu-vagga) that the Buddha spoke to his son Råhula about lying. The Buddha said: Even so, Råhula, of anyone for whom there is no shame at intentional lying, of him I say that there is no evil he cannot do. Wherefore, for you, Råhula, ``I will not speak a lie, even for fun''--this is how you must train yourself, Råhula. Lying can also be done with dosa-múla-citta and this is the case when one wants to harm someone else. As regards slandering, we all are inclined to talk about others. When there is no intention to harm the reputation of others, there is no akusala kamma-patha. However, when talking about others becomes a habit, there can easily be an occasion for akusala kamma-patha. This kind of akusala kamma-patha is performed with lobha-múla-citta if one slanders in order to obtain something for oneself or in order to please others. It is performed with dosa-múla-citta if one wants to harm someone else. We will be less inclined to talk about others or to judge them when we see ourselves and others as phenomena which arise because of conditions and which do not stay. At the moment we talk about other people's actions, these phenomena have fallen away already; what they said or did exists no more. Rude speech is performed with dosa-múla-citta. Frivolous talk is talk about idle, senseless things. This kind of talk can be performed with lobha-múla-citta or with dosa-múla-citta. Frivolous talk is not always akusala kamma-patha. It can be done with akusala citta which does not have the intensity of akusala kamma-patha. ***** Nina. #61898 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/27/06 12:53:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > Please allow me to say a few more words. > When we are experience different experiences, could we denied that > different experiences, their characterisitcs, their uniqueness? Do > these uniqueness represent an agent? --------------------------------------- Howard: Nope. I never claimed it did, and I still do not. ------------------------------------- > > > If dhamma is empty of a core, how is it be visible? > ------------------------------------ Howard: You are reading more into being coreless than I mean or than is meant by others. To be coreless is merely to lack own-being. Sounds, and hardnesses, and so on, all arise and are observable and are distiguishable, but none of them has own-being. In the Phena Sutta, the Buddha said all elements of the five khandhas are insubstantial. They are coreless. ------------------------------------ How could a> > feeling be experience if it is without substance? ----------------------------------- Howard: You had better check with the Buddha as to how that is possible. In the Phena Sutta the Buddha said <> Look at how he described feeling, Ken: as "empty, void, without substance." That's the Buddha speaking, Ken, not me! --------------------------------------------- If it is without> > susbstance, how could one differentiate the different feelings we > felt? If it is without substance, then this experience should be > imaginery. To me what is imaginery should be non-existence, then > isn't this veering towards nihilism? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Only if the charge of nihilism leveled against the Buddha were correct! C'mon, Ken. Drop your view: Stop, and smell the Dhamma! ------------------------------------------ > > > Its alright for me if you can dont reply :-) Dont forget my roots > are from Mahayana also, so this theory of without a core is very > familiar :-) ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is alive and well in the Sutta Pitaka, Ken! Your are confusing emptiness with nihilism. You should reread the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. When you cede su~n~nata to the Mahayanists you do no favor to Theravada. ----------------------------------------- > > > > Cheers > Ken > ==================== With metta, Howard #61899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Phra Dhammadaro on perceiving impermanence or just thinking about it. nilovg Hi Howard and Phil, The late Venerable one was the person who reminded me that reflection on the teachings is one of the meditation subjects of samatha, called: recollection on the Dhamma. His aim was not jhana, but the development of understanding of all characteristics presenting themselves at this very moment. Bhanga `naa.na is a stage of insight. But in the context Phil was quoting he was not considering someone who is advanced and has developed stages of insight. Nina. Op 27-jul-2006, om 17:38 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to know more about this venerable. Does he > meditate as far as > > you or anyone knows? > > I'm sure he did at some point. He'd dead now so I wouldn't worry > about it. > > >In the stage called "bhanga" cessation is directly > > observed. > > OK. This is way beyond me, of course. Maybe Phra Dhammadaro was > wrong. #61900 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sandhi nilovg Dear Connie, your quotes are very helpful for reflection. I have the Net of Views, but when you post it here, it makes me read and reflect more. I do not always have the time to take up the book. Thank you, appreciating, Nina. Op 27-jul-2006, om 17:34 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > THE ALL-EMBRACING NET OF VIEWS > Part Three: The Method of the Exegetical Treatises > The Sixteen Modes of Conveyance > 6. The Mode of Conveying the Fourfold Array (catubyuuhahaara). > (iv) The Sequence (sandhi). > (f) The "sequence of teaching" is the coherence between the > teaching (in > this sutta) and the teaching (in other suttas.) It may be > illustrated by > the following examples. #61901 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:07 am Subject: The Nature of Cessation upasaka_howard Hi, all - I find that I am perplexed as to how to think about such a thing as cessation. I do not mean the general concept of things ceasing, but the actual ceasing of a conditioned dhamma. It is obviously an event, and not an imagined one. As I think about it, I realize, however, that it cannot be a dhamma - not even mind-door dhamma. One reason it cannot be a dhamma is that it would then have to cease. But it is meaningless to speak of a cessation as, itself, ceasing! (Try to wrap your mind around that idea! ;-) The only possibility left, as I see it, is that it ceassations are concept-only. I suspect that is so. Likewise, arisings are concept-only. And conditionality and dependency. And anatta! They are all concept-only. And they are all REAL and of utmost importance, and they are all directly knowable with wisdom! This says to me that we should be very, very careful with how readily we dismiss things as "just pa~n~natti". As opposed to the description of human beings in the U.S. Declaration of Independence, "Not all pa~n~natti are created equal!" With metta, Howard #61902 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:22 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidhamma origins dacostacharles Dear Nina, So, by saying "it was by conventional Language that the Buddha existed (past, present, or future) -- the Buddha existed." And if I leave out the term, "conventional language," it means the Buddha never existed (past, present, or future)? -- Meaning that neither the 5 khandhas nor the "Buddha" have been reborn at any time? Boy this could be confusing because . . . Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina van Gorkom Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 16:12 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidhamma origins Dear Charles D, Of course not, see the end of my post: he spoke in conventional language. We have learnt that what we call I are five khandhas, but without being mistaken I can still say:' I' can say... 'we' have learnt. The Buddha knew that people would understand when he spoke about his remembrance of past lives: in the past I was so and so, of such or such a nama, of such or such clan, etc. Nina. Op 24-jul-2006, om 23:34 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > So the Buddha was lying or mistaken when he claimed to be "so and > so" in a > past-life (as you have stated before)? #61903 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:11 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidhamma origins dacostacharles Hi Sarah, Things are moving slowly. When I returned I had only 2 students left and since then we have grown by one. However, these 3 are the best students I have ever had. S: No the Buddha wasn't lying - he was talking in conventional language. . . . there are only ever mental and physical phenomena. The Buddha stressed there was no being, no person, no Tathagata, no soul - just elements. Can Charles or Sarah be experienced? Could they be experienced last life? How? C: Now this term, "conventional language," you make it sound like a convenient tool for saying what you want when you want. So, is it a nice tool for justifying something (e.g., a concept) when it is convenient and dismissing it when it is not. After all, Charles and Sarah can be experienced through the six-sense gates as unique mental and physical phenomenon. So unique that it is very easy to distinguish one from the other. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:35 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Abidhamma origins Hi Charles, How's the Kung Fu class doing? --- Charles DaCosta TELE.DK> wrote: > So the Buddha was lying or mistaken when he claimed to be "so and so" in > a > past-life (as you have stated before)? .... S: No the Buddha wasn't lying - he was talking in conventional language. We say that there is Charles and Sarah and that last year there was Charles and Sarah, but really there are only ever mental and physical phenomena. The Buddha stressed there was no being, no person, no Tathagata, no soul - just elements. Can Charles or Sarah be experienced? Could they be experienced last life? How? <...> #61904 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:51 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Argument on Misconception of God dacostacharles HI I am sorry but I have to quote you: "Man loses horse. Friends console him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. Horse returns with a wild horse. Friends congratulate him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. Man's son breaks leg while training horse. Friends console him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. War breaks out and all able young men have to fight. Friends congratulate him. He says, I don't know whether this is good or bad - it is just like that. After sunshine comes the rain; after rain comes sunshine. Neither good nor bad; things are just like that." Charles DaCosta _____ #61905 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:45 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Correct Explanation of Anapanasati Sutta Meditation by Bhante Vimalaramsi dacostacharles Hi Adam, Pretty good! Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhiststudent Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 18:18 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Correct Explanation of Anapanasati Sutta Meditation by Bhante Vimalaramsi Correct Explanation of Anapanasati Sutta Meditation by Bhante Vimalaramsi Dhamma Greetings Adam, I just wrote a chat group about the sutta way to practice anapanasati and thought I would send it along. Hope you enjoy it and if you think it is worth sharing with others please do! Maha-Metta 2U always Bhante Vimalaramsi Dhamma Greetings Tep, By your saying that you don't see how the fourth Noble Truth applies to seeing Dependent Origination I am guessing that you would like me to go to sutta 141 and remark on some of the things mentioned in this wonderful sutta. The First Noble Truth is actually pretty much self evident with this suttas explanation. But when we get to the Second Noble Truth there are some questions that need to be asked. In section 21 it says: "And what, friends, is the origin of suffering? It is craving, which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust (a quick note here is it can also be accompanied by dislike and aversion "I don't like it mind or I don't want it mind" - two sides of the same coin so to speak) and delights in this and that; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for being ( this is the "I Like it or I want it mind"), and craving for non-being (another quick note non-being is talking about aversion the "I don't like it or I don't want it mind) . This is called the noble truth of the origin of suffering". Now there are some questions that might be interesting to ask about this statement - What is craving, exactly? How does craving manifest? How can craving be recognized? What is the way to let go of this craving? (which is the 4th Noble Truth). To answer these questions it comes back to the actual practice of meditation and how the Buddha instructed us to do this practice. <....> #61906 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:32 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Argument on Misconception of God dacostacharles Hi Illusion, Interesting handle. You asked why God created the world with imperfections such as world disasters and human defects. May be God doesn't consider those things imperfections! I bought a puzzle, disassembled the thing, and gave my daughter the pieces. I then told her to put it together. In her eyes, I gave her a mess that she fixed, but in-reality I gave her a puzzle, a challenge. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Illusion Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 03:42 <...> Thought of the day... If "God" is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (everywhere), then why did he create the world with imperfections such as world disasters and human defects. If humans can overcome those disasters and defects...such as plastic surgery, if humans can improve this world in which "God" created then would it not imply that humans are more powerful than "God"? -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) #61907 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi KenO, > > > > M: I have now quoted several sutta saying that panna is for the > > concentrated and not for the un-concentrated. > > k: I have also pasted a lot of sutta that one does not need > concentration to be enlighted. > M: I went through what I wrote about this matter for you, and feel it is adequate. You will need to do some of the work now and try to understand. I will not debate this point anymore. > > > > M: My dear Ken. Your idea of suffering, everyman on earth has had. > > It is nothing new to buddhism. The Buddhist bit is when it > > say '...in short the five aggregates are suffering'. This is not a > > simple summary. If you can see each aggragate arising and passing > > away, you realise that due to it's impermanence, and when you keep > > on seeing the world around you which you thought was solid, > > breaking up infront of your eyes, everything you wanted to grasp > now turning out to be a ungraspable mirage, you realise it has the > > characteristic of dukkha. To see that every moment is suffering, > you need vipassana. Normally you will see that most moments are > neutral. But this is simply confusion due to avijja. In vipassana, > which is a different, focused, way of experiencing reality, you will > see that every moment which arises and passes away is suffering (or > better: unsatisfactory - best: dukkha). > > k: Nope to see moment of suffering we dont need vipassana. When the > body is in pain, that is suffering. M: no dear. to see and experience that all moments are dukkha (suffering is a crude english translation - it is not merely about a physical or mental feeling, it is a characterisitc of nature),and not just the painful ones, we do need vipassana. The Buddha said that all moments are suffering. So this means even the neutral ones, even the pleasant ones. When we are angry, there is > unplesant feeling, that is suffering. Or do we do this like telling > the moment of anger dont arise first, I need to go to vipassana to > know that you are impermament and suffering and dukkha. So the first > two hours you are meditiating that is practising, how about the next > two hours? If at the point of the next two hours you are not > meditating, anger arise, will you wait for yourself the next day the > two hours in practise to be in concentration to see anger as the > three characteristics or do we just see it as the three > characteristics. > M: Concentration after being developed, remains as long as mindfulness is maintained. If you are a mindful you will EXPERIENCE ('know and see') tilakkana every moment, and not just in the unpleasant ones. It is possible to be mindful from the moment of waking up to the point where one falls asleep. You only need to do this, to give rise to panna, until you know, that beyond a shade of doubt, in the past and in the future, near or far, gross or subltle, that all dhammas have these characteristics. That is by inference- panna gained being generalised. (the other option being to stupidly sit till your dying day just incase a permanent dhamma might arise) LOL! > k: What is mindfullness? Is it waiting in concentration then there > is mindfullness or is it better mindfullness can arise when the three > akusala arise. M: ? can you clarify please? Do Buddha said that panna can only arise during > concentration? M: Yes, thats exactly what he did. Then you should look at SN 22.59 Anatta-lakkhana > Sutta > < of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.>> Do > you see any part in the sutta mention that seclusion or somewhere in > thick jungle, meditation then gain enlightement? There are still a > few more examples in the cannon. > M: These people were ascetics. The Buddha would probably have been practicing some form of samatha with them during 6 years of hardship. He certainly was. To live in a forest is to move away from the distractions of urban life. I wouldnt be surprised if their minds were concentrated to some degree. Besides if you focus very clearly on speach, for a long period of time, then there can be samadhi. The Buddha first wanted to teach his teachers the dhamma - they were the one's with least defilements, clearly they were the most suitable candidates because samatha leads to suppression of defilements/distractions preparing the mind for panna. Even in his anupubbiya kata/graduated discourses he would prepare the minds before with talk (of heavens, benefists of giving) which would delighted and calmed minds. It is debatable that someone could give such a talk today. > > > M: "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where > > > a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly > > meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that > were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of > itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress > with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of > themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of > themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & > distress with reference to> the world. This is called the faculty of > mindfulness. > > > (from the same sutta) > > > > "And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a > > > monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with > > discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading > > > to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it is actually > > present: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... > > This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice > > leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of > > discernment. > > > > > M: The two definitions of sati and panna are very different. > Right mindfulness is categorised under concentration, not panna (in > the three trainings scheme). > > k: I dont know where you get your defintion of the three training > schemes. Panna is already inside because it is under right view and > right thought. I have already define right view. Right conduct is > not possible with right view and right concentration is not possible > with right conduct. > M: "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html M: I have answered previously about right view. I will not repeat it again. > > So why should someone remain '...focused on the body in & of itself > > — ardent, alert, & mindful..' This does not sound like he is > mindfulof panna (atleast not of a tilakkana level), does it? He is > simply aware of the body. He is ardent. What is there to be ardent > about if sati simply arises with panna? Viriya is often cited before > sati, saying that it leads to sati (noble eightfold path, five > faculties). What is the point in being ardent and having viriya if > panna arises with sati anyway? Besides we can give rise to panna by > having viriya, it arises when it wishes! But we can give rise to > sati with viriya. > > k: If we can give rise to viriya, we all be better than Buddha > himself because it is right view than right thought and not vice > versa. M: Ken, I think I have just discovered where the problem is. I'm describing my concept of how everything fits in, but you are trying to understand where it fits in within your concept of it rather trying to understand where it fits into mine. If it gives you any peace, yes I agree right view is forerunner and I said it before in case you missed it. But that forerunner right view is so small. We need to build up to a right view of an ariya - the question is how to get there. That is what i'm talking about. Just like it is latency that cause ignorance and not the > other way round. Buddha state it very clearly in 4NT, in other > suttas, Right view comes first. Your definition of panna is very > small, only encompasses panna as being enlightement which is ulimate > panna. Panna is right view and that is explain in many times in the > sutta. Are you saying that now you understand dhamma as not self as > explain in the sutta, that is not called mundane right view? > M: My understanding of anatta comes from direct experiencing not sutta reading. If you have such a view as described above, yes, it is a mudane right view. But then, it is incomplete, possibly skewed understanding when compared to the real thing. There might even be some self view lurking behind in a subtle manner. It is very difficult to judge these things without having very subtle mindfulness of your own thoughts. I am talking about going towards higher levels of panna. Everbody here has a pretty good mundane right view - there is no debate in that. > > > > He is 'alert'. It simply says he is alert - no mention of panna. It > > > would be superflous to talk just about sati in such a detailed > > manner is all important panna is arising at this very moment. Yet, > > panna is described seperately in a different manner. > 'remains > mindful....putting aside greed & distress with reference to > > the world.' > Why should he put aside anything? Panna can arise in > any instance. Yet the sutta says that something has to be done > before we can follow the satipattana. Where is the missing link in > our understanding? Panna is a flash and arises suddenly. What > requires us to put aside greed and distress is not panna, but sati. > More proof that there is prolonged panna (not a just flash here and > > there) needed to do what is in the satipattana. > > > > k: Is it possible for one to be mindfulness not to be alert? > Mindulness is the opposite of forgetness. So when one is mindful, > one is alert. Let me explain what is putting aside - Mindfulness > is call foundation. Foundation for kusala to arise. That is why it > is call protection. Protecting citta from being defile by > defilements. It is at times call as the guardain of the mind etc. > Hence when sati arise, aksuala cannot arise. And when akusala cannot > arise, it can only meant two things, sati must arise with kusala with > panna or kusala without panna. If it arise with kusala without > panna, then there is no point learning Buddhism because those > teachers that taught Buddha the jhanas will have become Arahants. > They already practise the eight attainments even before Buddha and > they taught Buddha. So that leaves us only with kusala with panna. > M: Well acutally there is mindfulness of craving (cittanupassana) and the rest of the five hindrences as well (dhammanupassana) in the satipatthana. So your theory that it only arises with kusala doesnt hold water, does it? For it to be protecting it would have to functioning right through the day, should it not (becuase akusala might arise otherwise when there is no sati)? Then you will have to have unbroken mindfulnes which can be only generated with viriya. But actually I agree with you that it is protective - with less (not none) defilements arising - this leads to calm/samadhi. But for this it would need to be prolonged. And as for the reason they are called foundations: It is the four foundations of mindfulness, not four foundations of kusala. These four are the range, the object, the field of sati. Sati is based only on these four, applied purely to these four -hence they are foundations. > > > Surely you agree that direct experiencing is required for > > > later developments of panna??? > > k: Direct experience can be anywhere anything, even while we are > watching our favourite TV show :-) > M: Yes ofcourse! But then why dont you get it each time you watch TV??? It is possible to be in such a state, but you dont know how, do you? > > M:If you stay in a meditation retreat for 4 days do you know what > happens tothe mind? It forgets the chatter of the outside world and > it settles - there is peace - there is continued mindfulness. This > is not just my experience but the experience of many hundreds if > not> thousands who have gone through the centre where I trained. I > trust it more than any commentary because I know beyond a doubt that > it happens. It just makes it easier to understand the suttas. > > k: Nope. I think Buddha teachers are a better meditator than most > of us because they attain immaterial jhanas :-) But I dont see them > become Arahants before Buddha. > M: Like I said - who did the buddha first look for to teach - 'those with little dust in their eyes' it was his teachers because their minds were already prepared. I bet you never heard this from K.Sujin: § 156. A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through the Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable ignorance. Which six? There is the case where a monk is skilled in the attaining of concentration, in the maintenance of concentration, in the exit from concentration, in the [mind's] preparedness for concentration, in the range of concentration, & in the application of concentration. A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through the Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable ignorance. -- AN VI.24 The way sati is weilded makes all the difference -whether on one object or on many. You can do a lifetime of samatha and not get much panna. If one doesnt have samadhi, a jhana is a mountain to climb. If one doesnt have material jhana, immaterial jhana is a mountain to climb. > > > > M: Right view of a mundane person is so rudimentary. You can see it > > in the MN114. We havent even got to the development of faculties > > required to go to the next level panna. If you want to send emails > > to dsg till your dying day, and that is your panna, all I can say > > is I feel very sorry for you. It is truly your kamma, even though > > others might try their damndest nothing might come of it. > > k: Nope that is why a lot of people like to talk to us because we > are one bunch of obstinate people who likes to say panna can be > developed without mediation :-) And if you talk to us long, you > realise that we seldom doubtful about why this term is used in this > sutta means this and mean that in another sutta. A good eg is > perception :-). It can meant wisdom in another sutta or simply > perception in another. And you also realise people ask us about the > meanings. Let me tell you a secret why we know so much term with so > much confidence, all these credits goes to the commentary and > Abhidhamma. And not to forget people like you because you spur us to > read more, study more or learn more into the commentary and > Abhidhamma :-). > M: Yes, and why are you so confident about the commentaries? with metta Matheesha #61908 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Ven. Cunda's Advice buddhatrue Hi Joop (and Sarah), Thank you for this important post! It is something that the active members of this group need to seriously consider deeply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the > commentary > > notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples > (i.e at > > least sotapannas). The first group have become enlightened without > the > > development of jhanas and the second group with jhanas. > > > > Hallo Sarah > > I remember we have discussed about this Sutta, and the meaning of it > in the never-ending DSG-discussion. > Perhaps you have seen parts of the discussion between Jon and me about > the place of commentaries in Sutta study. > > So let me say is short and clear:I don't belief the commentators who > state that this Sutta is about ariyan monks, are correct. I'm not even convinced that this sutta's commentary means it only applies to ariyan monks. The problem with Sarah (and others) is that she is looking for support for her position. She has SELECTIVE ATTENTION so she selects a certain Pali word or term, pulls it out of context, examines all of the possible definitions of that Pali word (of which there are usually several), and then picks one that seems to match what she is looking for. Oh, she sounds impressive, pulling this and that Pali word out, squeezing definitions out of them, but then coming to asinine conclusions. This is nothing new in the history of religions. Throughout history people have examined religious documents and interpreted them in ways to justify their positions. So we have situations where the Bible is used to justify African slavery, the Koran is used to justify suicide bombers, and the Pali Canon is used to justify abolishing meditation. It's really nothing new. > And more important: this Sutta we can aplly to ourselves! > Yes, of course we should apply it to ourselves. If we couldn't, then there would be no use to the dhamma. > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James #61909 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:37 pm Subject: Re: The Nature of Cessation buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I find that I am perplexed as to how to think about such a thing as > cessation. I do not mean the general concept of things ceasing, but the actual > ceasing of a conditioned dhamma. It is obviously an event, and not an imagined > one. As I think about it, I realize, however, that it cannot be a dhamma - not > even mind-door dhamma. One reason it cannot be a dhamma is that it would then > have to cease. But it is meaningless to speak of a cessation as, itself, > ceasing! (Try to wrap your mind around that idea! ;-) > The only possibility left, as I see it, is that it ceassations are > concept-only. I suspect that is so. Likewise, arisings are concept- only. And > conditionality and dependency. And anatta! They are all concept- only. And they are > all REAL and of utmost importance, and they are all directly knowable with > wisdom! This says to me that we should be very, very careful with how readily we > dismiss things as "just pa~n~natti". As opposed to the description of human > beings in the U.S. Declaration of Independence, "Not all pa~n~natti are created > equal!" Ahhhhh....we are finally getting on the same page when it comes to the pannatti/paramatha issue! :-) (This is the one area where we always disagreed.) > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #61910 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:44 pm Subject: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina I'd just like to confirm that any sutta which refers to the "noble instructed disciple" is referring to the ariyan and not to ourselves - right? The Pali in such suttas contains "ariyan", right? Is "ariyan" Pali? Thanks in advance. Phil #61911 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:57 pm Subject: Re: cittas and functions scottduncan2 Dear connie, Thanks for: c: "Embracing, p.218: (7) By the words 'that too is conditioned by contact,' signifying that the proclamation of eternalism, etc. occurs in dependence on conditions, the notion of permanence in dhammas is rejected and the truth of impermanence established. This phrase further refutes the notion of an agent existing as an ultimate reality, discloses the actual nature of dhammas, reveals the truth of emptiness, and indicates conditions and characteristics capable of functioning without an initiating agent." Cool. Sense, object, and perception. Feeling. No one necessary. I should get the text myself. Too much stuff to read. Could be worse dilemmas, I suppose. With loving kindness, Scott. #61912 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., K: "I hope you won't mind if I answer your rhetorical questions." Not at all. K: "You might have trouble getting rid of me for the time being." Good, since I'm not wanting to get rid of you! K: "I am stuck indoors undergoing a rather extreme treatment - a bit like a skin scrub - for some very minor skin cancers. I am not allowed prolonged sun exposure, or to go surfing. If I so much as show my face in public there could be one of those 'I am not an animal!' kinds of stampede." Good thing I can't see you then. If I did I might suggest you get lost. One needs to keep one's food down, eh. K: "'What does it matter? Since there are only dhammas - none of which is a self or pertains to a self - who cares whether there is right view or not?'(Probably not the right attitude to take, but just a thought.)" Well, yeah. "Who cares" when there is no one to care. Pa~n~na is right view, isn't it? Also an impersonal dhamma. But, in the intricate conditionaly related flux, it does matter very much. K: "There are proponents of both ways here at DSG. We can't all be right, but so what? There are only dhammas!" Ken, you contoversialist, you. I can see it building on another thread. Just because we are merely real as concepts doesn't remove us from the difficult task of negotiating conceptual relations. There, now I'm just as much a contoversialist as you. Arrr, matey. With loving kindness, Scott. #61913 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:36 pm Subject: Re: The Nature of Cessation scottduncan2 Dear Howard, I think you are correct. H: "...It is obviously an event, and not an imagined one. ...The only possibility left, as I see it, is that it ceassations are concept-only. I suspect that is so. Likewise, arisings are concept-only." The arising, persistence and falling away of dhammas are not dhammas in and of themselves. With loving kindness, Scott. #61914 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Cessation upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/27/06 10:41:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Ahhhhh....we are finally getting on the same page when it comes to > the pannatti/paramatha issue! :-) (This is the one area where we > always disagreed.) > > ------------------------------ Howard: ;-) ============== With metta, Howard #61915 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:09 pm Subject: Re: The Nature of Cessation scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I think you are correct. > > H: "...It is obviously an event, and not an imagined one. ...The only > possibility left, as I see it, is that it ceassations are > concept-only. I suspect that is so. Likewise, arisings are concept-only." > > The arising, persistence and falling away of dhammas are not dhammas > in and of themselves. > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > Sorry, just to quote where I got this: "...the three characteristics of conditioned reality (sankhata-lakkhana) - namely, origination (uppada), cessation (vaya), and the alteration of that which exists (thiassa annathatta) - are universal characteristics (samanna-lakkhana). Because they have on objective reality they are not elevated to the status of dhammas..." (The Dhamma Theory, Karunadasa, p. 8). This seems to me to accord with what I've read elsewhere. Scott. #61916 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:13 pm Subject: Re: The Nature of Cessation scottduncan2 Sorry, correction: "thitassa" not "thiassa." Scott. #61917 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Cessation upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/27/06 11:37:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I think you are correct. > > H: "...It is obviously an event, and not an imagined one. ...The only > possibility left, as I see it, is that it ceassations are > concept-only. I suspect that is so. Likewise, arisings are concept-only." > > The arising, persistence and falling away of dhammas are not dhammas > in and of themselves. > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > ======================== You said "I think you are correct." This pleases me very much, Scott, not so much that you agree - and, of course, you might well revise that opinion at some point, but, as I infer to be so, that your agreement signifies that you have paid attention to the reasons given for my opinion, that you have considered them, and that you have decided for yourself whether or not what I said makes sense. What pleases me so much is not your agreement, pleasant though that is, but your valuing truth as a paramattha, i.e., as a supreme goal, and your undertaking the task, yourself, of investigating what is true. With metta, Howard #61918 From: Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:58 pm Subject: What did Sarah say to Betty? mombetty2004 Hi, Phil, No, it was nothing physical at all. There would hardly have been enough space on those houseboats for yoga or even tai chi, which I have just begun to learn, by the way (good discipline for mind and body). Again, it was not what Sarah said that was important, for I have forgotten the words. But it was that those words acted as a condition for "right" thinking to occur. If you read Nina's book Conditions, which describes the 24 paccaya (conditions) that are causes for effects to occur, on every level, it beautifully explains them. And if upon reading it, it brings up conditions for "you" to think deeply, contemplate, "I" hope at some point there will be conditions arising for understanding to occur at even deeper levels. Everything is dependent on conditions, there is no being or self to "cause" anything to happen. metta, Betty PS: If you would like to read Condtions, I think you may be able to download it from either www.zolag.co.uk or www.abhidhamma.org _______________________ So I guess you encouraged Betty to do something yoga-ish to get her physically refreshed/relaxed so that she could carry on her pilgrimage. Phil #61919 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What did Sarah say to Betty? sarahprocter... Hi Betty, Thanks for joining in this thread and for all your reflections in your other post and this one! I'm glad Phil's managed to bring you out of lurk-mode:-)). --- mombetty@... wrote: > Hi, Phil, > No, it was nothing physical at all. There would hardly have been enough > space on those houseboats for yoga or even tai chi, .... S: That was true! And when one friend (John) tried a little early morning walking exercise, he ended up in the very filthy water and got very sick.... .... > Again, it was not what Sarah said that was important, for I have > forgotten the words. But it was that those words acted as a condition > for "right" thinking to occur. .... S: And as you say, it is the wise reflection, the right thinking and understanding that matters. What to your credit may have acted as a helpful trigger to you, would have had the opposite effect for someone else. ... <...> >Everything is dependent on conditions, > there is no being or self to "cause" anything to happen. .... S: Well said:-). How about the other dhamma jottings from the trip? Are there any others you care to share? So Phil, I'm now leaving this thread to Betty and how she responds to your guesses:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Phil, thx for the Dhammadharo quotes and reflections. I also thought the one about 'if it's not sense door, it's mind door' was a good one. Keep sharing. ============ #61920 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:53 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting ken_aitch Hi Scott, --------- <. . .> S: > Good thing I can't see you then. If I did I might suggest you get lost. One needs to keep one's food down, eh. ---------- That's a thought! My wife and I have been invited to dinner tomorrow night. Our hosts had been warned, but it will be interesting to see who is seated opposite who. I hope there won't be any unseemly jockeying for positions. :-) -------------- KH: > > 'What does it matter? Since there are only dhammas - none of which is a self or pertains to a self - who cares whether there is right view or not?'(Probably not the right attitude to take, but just a thought.)" S: > Well, yeah. "Who cares" when there is no one to care. Pa~n~na is right view, isn't it? Also an impersonal dhamma. But, in the intricate conditionaly related flux, it does matter very much. -------------- It was a dangerous statement for me to make. Seen from the perspective of either eternity belief or annihilation belief, the Dhamma can be made to sound stupid. E.g., "Since I don't exist, I needn't bother doing the right thing." Even in the absence of wrong view, ignorance (moha) will prevent Dhamma from making sense. For as long as we can't see the ultimate unreality of mowing the lawn or taking out the garbage, those concepts will remain onerous. So what did you mean by, "the intricate conditionally related flux?" I think you must have been referring to a concept of some kind. When there is right understanding of concepts and realities, does any concept (mowing the lawn or helping the needy) really matter? Sorry if I am misconstruing your words. That's what you get when you talk to a controversialist. :-) Ken H > K: "There are proponents of both ways here at DSG. We can't all be > right, but so what? There are only dhammas!" > > Ken, you contoversialist, you. I can see it building on another > thread. Just because we are merely real as concepts doesn't remove us > from the difficult task of negotiating conceptual relations. There, > now I'm just as much a contoversialist as you. > #61921 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:35 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 498- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== The Visuddhimagga also mentions aspects of equanimity of vipassanå. Equanimity as a factor of enlightenment is an aspect of equanimity in vipassanå mentioned by the Visuddhimagga (IV, 159). There are seven factors of enlightenment (sambojjhanga): mindfulness (sati), investigation of Dhamma (Dhamma vicaya, which is paññå), energy (viriya), enthusiasm (píti), calm (passaddhi), concentration (samådhi) and equanimity (upekkhå). Equanimity is in this case again the cetasika tatramajjhattatå. When the enlightenment factors have been developed they lead to enlightenment. They are not developed separately, but they are developed together with satipaììhåna. The enlightenment factor of equanimity performs its own function while it accompanies citta and the other cetasikas. We read in the Visuddhimagga (IV, 159) about the enlightenment factor of equanimity: “He develops the equanimity enlightenment factor depending on relinquishment”(1). When right understanding sees the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities which arise and then fall away, there will be indifference towards them. When satipaììhåna is being developed we do not have to aim at the development of equanimity because it develops together with insight. The enlightenment factors reach completion through satipaììhåna. When conditioned realities have been clearly understood as they are, enlightenment can be attained. *** 1) Relinquishment is twofold: it is the giving up of all defilements and also theinclination to or “entering into” nibbåna (Vis. XXI, 18). ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61922 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice sarahprocter... Dear Joop, I thought of you when we were in the Alps, because I know you like to go walking there too. --- Joop wrote: > I remember we have discussed about this Sutta, and the meaning of it > in the never-ending DSG-discussion. .... S: Ah yes - one of the many never-ending DSG-discussions:-) .... > Perhaps you have seen parts of the discussion between Jon and me about > the place of commentaries in Sutta study. .... S: Yes, I try to read everything - even if it's in a jet-lagged foggy haze. .... > So let me say is short and clear:I don't belief the commentators who > state that this Sutta is about ariyan monks, are correct. .... S: I'm not sure it matters very much. The point was only to indicate that I believe both groups had developed a lot of insight in spite of their very different lifestyles and inclinations and that they and we should highly respect any such development of vipassana (and samatha). Even if it's just a beginning of bhavana, it should be respected. .... > And more important: this Sutta we can apply to ourselves! .... S: Definitely -- otherwise no point in reading suttas. The point of drawing attention to the insights of these monks again is to show that defilements are deeply rooted. We are bound to have disagreements or disputes for a long time to come. The point was not to say that the sutta only applies to ariyans. However, for all of us here, I think there's a difference between accepting and respecting someone's viewpoint (even if we don't agree with it) and agreeing that all kinds of viewpoint about practice or meditation are correct and what the Buddha taught. What do you think? Instead of using the word meditation, can we use bhavana or mental development? Do you think there can be bhavana now as we discuss our viewpoints? Metta, Sarah ======== #61923 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:09 am Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) jwromeijn Hallo Nina, Phil, Sarah, all I'm curious to your answer too Nina To make sure that's not an abstract question: it has to do with JKames his last thread about Ven Cunda's Advice (#61908 and before) Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina > > > I'd just like to confirm that any sutta which refers to the "noble > instructed disciple" is referring to the ariyan and not to ourselves - > right? > > The Pali in such suttas contains "ariyan", right? Is "ariyan" Pali? > Thanks in advance. > > Phil > #61924 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Ken O, On fig trees and cores, do the quotes below which you(Howard) gave a few years ago help? --- Ken O wrote: > > The following is from the Uraga Sutta of the Sutta Nipata, a > > teaching > > of the Buddha I believe: > > > > "He who does not find core or substance > > in any of the realms of being, > > like flowers which are vainly sought > > in fig trees that bear none, > > — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin." .... S: I requoted these in a post on Nagarjuna. I think your original post was around 21March 2001. H:>1) In XXI, 56, there is the following: Having discerned voidness in the six modes in this way , he discerns it again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no core, is coreless, without core, as far as concerns (i) any core of permanence, or (ii) core of lastingness, or (iii) core of pleasure, or (iv)core of self, or as far as concerns (v) what is permanent, or (vi) what is lasting, or (vii) what is eternal, or (viii) what is not subject to change. Just as a reed has no core, is coreless, without core; just as a castor-oil plant, an udumbara (fig) tree, a setavaccha tree, a palibhaddaka tree, a lump of froth, a bubble on water, a mirage, a plantain trunk, a conjuring trick, has no core is coreless, without core, so too materiality etc.' (2) In XI, 104, there is the following, with the capitalization for emphasis being mine: ... They are states (dhamma) owing to bearing (dharana) for the length of the moment appropriate to them. They are impermanent in the sense of [liability to] destruction; they are painful in the sense of [causing] terror; THEY ARE NOT SELF IN THE SENSE OF HAVING NO CORE [OF PERMANENCE AND SO ON].< .... S: (They were your caps). Enjoying your continued discussion. Metta, Sarah ====== #61925 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) nilovg Hi Phil, Yes, ariya is Pali, think of the ariya sacca, noble truths. Instructed: this can stand for bahussutta: who has listened much, but that also includes practice. The sutta referring to ariyans can also be applied by us, it is an encouragement to all of us. Nina. Op 28-jul-2006, om 4:44 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I'd just like to confirm that any sutta which refers to the "noble > instructed disciple" is referring to the ariyan and not to ourselves - > right? > > The Pali in such suttas contains "ariyan", right? Is "ariyan" Pali? #61926 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Cessation nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, yes, Howard is correct.I quote Vis. XXI, 4, footnote 4, taken from the Tiika: (Pm. 825).> When studying rupakkhandha with Larry we had discussions about this subject. The three lakkhana rupas are included in the list of 28 rupas. They are not concrete matter, not produced rupas. We read Vis. Ch XIV, 80: < 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'. Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage, 'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth [that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their function.> We can learn something from these quotes. When anattaa is realized, it is anattaa *of* a reality, not the experience of a sensation of there being no self. Anattaa of one reality at a time, a nama or a rupa appearing now. It is difficult for us to be aware of one reality at a time, that is why Kh. Sujin always comes back to the present moment of seeing now, hearing now. The first stage of insight, discerning the difference between nama and rupa is already difficult for us. Eventually there will be the realization of anattaa of either a nama or a rupa. Nina. Op 28-jul-2006, om 5:36 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I think you are correct. > > H: "...It is obviously an event, and not an imagined one. ...The only > possibility left, as I see it, is that it ceassations are > concept-only. I suspect that is so. Likewise, arisings are concept- > only." > > The arising, persistence and falling away of dhammas are not dhammas > in and of themselves. #61927 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:51 am Subject: Re: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > >> "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should direct > your thoughts to the fact of his being the product of his > actions: 'This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his > actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his > actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for > evil, to that will he fall heir.' Thus the hatred for that > individual should be subdued. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.than.html > > What do you make of that? Is it ill-will to keep in mind the > negative karma that one will receive? Or is it a way to combat ill- > will and hatred? I'm still unsure about this. .... S: When we reflect wisely on kamma, how we're subject to the laws of kamma, there's no hatred or ill-will at such times. If we dwell on the negative kamma we will receive it can be with useful reflection as above or commonly it may be with uneasiness and fear. When we or others receive bad results, it's due to kamma. When we or others behave badly, it will lead to bad results. Of course, we are so used to thinking of ourselves and others, even in this regard, but really there are just good and bad mental states which lead to various results such as the experiences through the senses. Does this answer the question? Metta, Sarah ======== #61928 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Feeding Calm ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, Thank you for your helpful extracts as usual. In this one on 'Feeding Calm', #61813, you wrote: --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > What is Feeding the Tranquillity Link to Awakening! > > The Blessed Buddha once said: > Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in > dependence on feeding > and cannot survive without food, exactly & even so are the Seven Links > to Awakening > also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on > feeding and they > cannot survive without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of > the emergence > of any yet unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening and also feeding of > the completion > by cooling of already arisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening? There are 2 > kinds of Calm: > Tranquillity of the Body (kaya-passaddhi) & Tranquillity of the Mind > (citta-passaddhi)! ..... S: These expressions come up a few times in your extract, so perhaps it would be helpful to point out that both are mental factors (cetasikas) referring to the calm of other cetasikas (kaya-passaddhi) and calm of citta (citta-passaddhi). Nothing to do with the physical body here! (See Vism X1V, 144 where body is said to refer to the 3 mental aggregates of vedana, sanna and sankhara. ..... > Frequently giving careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the > arising of any > unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening and also feeding of the gradual > fulfilment of any > already arisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening... .... S: Again, it's pointed out here that the 'food' for the development of calm or tranquillity in order to become a facor of enlightenment (bhojjanga) is wise attention (yoniso manasikara. ..... <...> > There is Tranquillity of the Body and there is Tranquillity of the Mind! > These mutually > depend upon and enhance each other into even deeper stilling. Awakening > is solid calm! > > Sources (edited extracts): > The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. > Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... .... S: Again, we should be clear, I think, that it is referring to the inter-dependence here between the calming of citta and cetasikas as at any moments of kusala (wholesome) consciousness. At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, the cittas and cetasikas involved are calm. There is samatha. Thank you again for the helpful texts. With respect & Metta Sarah p.s Can anyone tell me where this last ref. is in BB's translation of SN as I can't find it. ===================== #61929 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Born with pa~n~na. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Rob M (and anyone else interested in 'Useful Posts only), More homework for your steep learning curve: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > N: "I quoted before the Atthasaalini who explains samaya as > concurrence of conditions.This helps not to see a self who can > cultivate pa~n~naa." > > I see where "samaya" is a word that is rather loaded with nuances, as > I look at the PTS PED. Phrases and words such as "in course of time," > "proper time," "due season," "at the right time," " coincidence," > "circumstance." ..... S: See U.P. under: -samaya -nimitta ..... Anyone: -jhanas - 2 kinds ..... RobM: - paramattha - Abhidhamma vs suttas - Kathavatthu - Commentaries - Abhidhamma -origins ..... Metta, Sarah ======= #61930 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Nina, 8. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, I'm glad to read your old letters again and also the ADL installments. A technical question here on the sutta you quote: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> >We read in the 'Nandakovada-sutta' (Middle Length Sayings, III, > no. 146) that <...> > Already, revered sir, by means of perfect intuitive wisdom it has > been well seen by us as it really is that, "These six internal sense- > fields are impermanent." ' > > The six 'internal sense-fields' are the five senses and the mind. .... S: I assume the mind here refers to manaayatana, the 6th internal aayatana which includes all kinds of citta according to our Abh texts. Or does it just refer to the doorways here, i.e the bhavanga citta which acts as mind-door? ..... >The > same is said about the six 'external sense-fields' : colours, sounds, > smells, flavours, tangibles and dhammas. The same is said about the > 'six classes of consciousness' which experience these objects. <....> S: So after the internal and external aayatanas, it then gives the same for 'six classes of consciousness', again including all kinds of citta, surely? Is it just repetition or have I missed something? I checked BB's translation which is very similar to the PTS one you used. Does the commentary add anything, I wonder. Of course, like in the SN suttas on the aayatanas, various dhammas are often repeated. Metta, Sarah ======= #61931 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:47 am Subject: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) matheesha333 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > >> "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should direct > > your thoughts to the fact of his being the product of his > > actions: 'This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his > > actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his > > actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for > > evil, to that will he fall heir.' Thus the hatred for that > > individual should be subdued. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.than.html > > > > What do you make of that? Is it ill-will to keep in mind the > > negative karma that one will receive? Or is it a way to combat ill- > > will and hatred? I'm still unsure about this. > .... M: I think this is an attempt to reduce strong feelings of anger, to a less potent form perhaps so that it will pass away quickly. Buddha was all for harm reduction. I remember a sutta where he preaches to a theif, telling him not to kill when he steals. He didnt tell him not to steal! The teachings are according to the capacities of the person listening. with metta Matheesha #61932 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Born with pa~n~na. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Coincidentally I was just considering posting the following (below) when I read Nina's comments under "conditions-samaya" (# 34150). I wasn't sure as to the appropriateness of the post but, after I quote Nina I'll add my comments. I want to go beyond discussing definitions for a moment and ask about experience versus and in relation to the words. Nina states: "There are many factors necessary as conditions for the arising of the first type of kusula citta of the sense sphere: accompanied by wisdom associated with pleasant feeling and unprompted." And, further: "Kusula citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present." Now, me (a brief experience for examination): The Conditions: Death of wife; a farewell wine-and-cheese for an esteemed colleague whom I will miss; pondering recent posts about "practise," "pa~n~na" and "anatta;" noticing I was enjoying recent conversations with connie and feeling a bit guilty about that; reading, before falling asleep, about needing to know the difference between "lobha-mula citta" and "mahaa-kusula citta and realising with a bit of dismay that I didn't know this really from an experiential point of view; and later A Dream: I'm doing something. Then I go into a room. I see my wife seated at a table. A female colleague from work is moving in the room. I sit across the table from my wife. I take her hands in mine. I start crying rather intensely while I say to her, "I will miss you forever." And then After the Dream: I wake up and I'm actually crying. I have a series of thoughts about the process of grief, interpreting elements of the dream to myself, and then focus on the deep sadness and think, while feeling it, what a very exquisite thing this sadness is. I go downstairs and out on the verandah and sit on the steps, tears falling, totally caught up in the "exquisite sadness" and then the thought: "This is deep, deep clinging - this moment of exquisite sadness is a pristine moment of lobha-mula citta." The feeling shifts immediately upon this thought and seems rather intense and joyful as another thought arises: "Noticing the clinging is a moment of 'mahaa-kusula citta with pa~n~na,' there is no "forever," and there is no wife anymore, only that feeling which, in clinging to it as if it were my wife, comes to feel so 'exquisite.'" I don't actually know the exact meaning of "mahaa-kusula citta," I had been, as I noted, reading about this before falling asleep earlier. I wonder if the above is an example of the way these things come about in the course of a day. I hope this isn't out of line. With loving kindness, Scott. #61933 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) matheesha333 Hi Nina, > Hi Phil, > Yes, ariya is Pali, think of the ariya sacca, noble truths. > Instructed: this can stand for bahussutta: who has listened much, but > that also includes practice. > The sutta referring to ariyans can also be applied by us, it is an > encouragement to all of us. > Nina. > M: I've heard it being said that there is a difference between ariya sravaka and ariya puggala. Do you know more about this? with metta Matheesha #61934 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:56 am Subject: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: When we reflect wisely on kamma, how we're subject to the laws of > kamma, there's no hatred or ill-will at such times. Thanks for your input. Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. Of course, there is one little snag: The sutta I gave was spoken by the Buddha as to the ways to combat anger. Someone who has anger is not likely to "reflect wisely on kamma". :-) Metta, James #61935 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:38 am Subject: Re: Simulataneous Double Meaning of Kaya = Group & Body bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Friend Sarah: It is true that both the abhidhamma and the commentaries define: Kaya-passaddhi as calm of feeling, perception and mental construction. Citta-passaddhi as calm of consciousness. The physical body is not even mentioned! Which is somewhat strange IMHO. However the Buddha explained once that when a man after working hard came and lied down under a tree. Then his body calmed down (heart-beat, muscle-tension etc.) Then after that and naturally conditioned by that: His mind also calmed down... Mental calm cannot ever exist in an agitated body! The reverse relation between a stressed mind that induces a tense body is also true: When this mind is calmed down and relaxed, then the neck-myosis of the tense body also relaxes... Bodily calm cannot ever co-exist with an agitated mind! Caused by these obvious direct observations and the Buddha specifically pointing to the physical body also when talking about calm I am currently inclined to think that: Kaya-passaddhi has these two simultaneous meanings: The primary: Calm of the physical body. The subtle: Calm of the mental group of feeling perception and construction. In the beginning of a meditative career the primary meaning is important... For the more advanced meditator the subtle meaning gains lucidity!!! The Buddha (& I) target both these groups, with the very same message, which thus can be understood at two -both true- levels! Economic communication! Thanx for this good pointing out! -- vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <..> #61936 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna ashkenn2k Hi Matheesha > > M: These people were ascetics. The Buddha would probably have been > practicing some form of samatha with them during 6 years of > hardship. He certainly was. To live in a forest is to move away > from the distractions of urban life. I wouldnt be surprised if their minds were concentrated to some degree. Besides if you focus very clearly on speach, for a long period of time, then there can be samadhi. The Buddha first wanted to teach his teachers the dhamma -> they were the one's with least defilements, clearly they were the most suitable candidates because samatha leads to suppression of defilements/distractions preparing the mind for panna. Even in his anupubbiya kata/graduated discourses he would prepare the minds before with talk (of heavens, benefists of giving) which would delighted and calmed minds. It is debatable that someone could give> such a talk today. k: But you said many times concentration is fundamental for panna. How come these acetics did not become enlightement while Buddha is? > > > M: "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold > > path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included > under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right > livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right > mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." k: The three aggregates are not included because there is lobha, dosa and moha under the three aggregates hence they are not included in the eightofld path. Aggregate is known as mass, heap, hence when it is used in aggregated of virture, it means mass of virtue or heaps of virtue. Likewise for the meaning of aggregate to be known for the other two. My position is always as said by Buddha in 8NP, right view come first before the others . If one does not know that akusala bring danger, will one perform kusala behaviour? Only when we know the danger in akusala, we perform kusala conduct. > M: Ken, I think I have just discovered where the problem is. I'm > describing my concept of how everything fits in, but you are trying to understand where it fits in within your concept of it rather > trying to understand where it fits into mine. > > If it gives you any peace, yes I agree right view is forerunner and > I said it before in case you missed it. But that forerunner right > view is so small. We need to build up to a right view of an ariya - > the question is how to get there. That is what i'm talking about. k: I am also saying these all rights condition each other. Without right view, there is no right conduct. likewise without right view there will no right mindfulness. In sum, it is not just the forerunnder, it is fundamental for any rights to arise because right view is anatta. > > M: Well acutally there is mindfulness of craving (cittanupassana) > and the rest of the five hindrences as well (dhammanupassana) in > the satipatthana. So your theory that it only arises with kusala doesnt> hold water, does it? k: Mindful of craving does that meant it is akusala. Just like when there is knowledge of suffering, does it meant that panna is suffering. Only when one is mindful of aksuala, then kusala arise. Hence it is said, unarisen akusala from arising and kusala to growth > M: Yes ofcourse! But then why dont you get it each time you watch > TV??? It is possible to be in such a state, but you dont know how, > do you? k: I remember that some monks got enlighted, while having a hair cut, seeing a smile etc > > M: Like I said - who did the buddha first look for to teach - > 'those with little dust in their eyes' it was his teachers because their minds were already prepared. I bet you never heard this from K.Sujin: > > § 156. A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through > the Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable > ignorance. Which six? > > There is the case where a monk is skilled in the attaining of > concentration, in the maintenance of concentration, in the exit > from concentration, in the [mind's] preparedness for concentration, in the range of concentration, & in the application of concentration. > > A monk endowed with these six qualities could break through the > Himalayas, king of mountains, to say nothing of miserable > ignorance. > > -- AN VI.24 k: You still have not explain to me how come ascetics and teachers before Buddha who are great meditators never become enlighted? What you describe are supramundane jhanas. Two person can have jhanas, then born in Brahma plane. One after life in Brahma become enlighted while the other goes back to endless suffering. Why same mediation while one become enlighted, the other not. I am unique because I am not a direct pupil of K Shujin like Nina and Sarah. I treat her with great respect because at least I know someone who is willing to teach what is hard to accept by most people. Without her and her pupils I will have been confused in dhamma. > > M: Yes, and why are you so confident about the commentaries? k: At least they are more accurate than modern writers :-) because most of them will have been Arahants as it was written at least 2000 - 2500 years ago. At this sasana, the highest achievers are non-returners only, the taints are still there and they are not completely eradicated. k: Furthermore, once you understand its taste, it is unbelievable sweet. We need them for reading of the suttas. The whole sutta cannon becomes clear. I have total confidence in the commentaries and Abhidhamma. Cheers Ken O #61937 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ashkenn2k Hi Howard thanks for the patient to continue talking this subject with me. > > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > You are reading more into being coreless than I mean or than > is meant > by others. To be coreless is merely to lack own-being. Sounds, and > hardnesses, > and so on, all arise and are observable and are distiguishable, but > none of > them has own-being. In the Phena Sutta, the Buddha said all > elements of the > five khandhas are insubstantial. They are coreless. > ------------------------------------ k: isnt lack of own being means lack of self. They are insubstantial of self and not itself insubstantial. And that will mean it does not exist because substantial is essential nature or essential characteristics. If it lack its characteristics, how does it be visible. How does this experience being consistant for all the experience of pleasant feeling as pleasant. > How could a> > > feeling be experience if it is without substance? > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > You had better check with the Buddha as to how that is > possible. In > the Phena Sutta the Buddha said < — when it's raining in fat, heavy drops — a water bubble were to appear & disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance> would there be in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him â€> seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without > substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?>> > Look at how he described feeling, Ken: as "empty, void, > without substance." That's the Buddha speaking, Ken, not me! > --------------------------------------------- k: Please look the three words again, isn't void is synoymous with empty. Isn't lack of susbtance synoymous with void. These are three words to emphasis the meaning of emptiness. In addition, the lack of susbtance does not mean dhamma is not unique or it does not meant it lack its own characteristics. Because if all dhammas lack its own characteristics, there will be no pleasant and unpleasant feelings. there will no differentiation. Cheers Ken O #61938 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 7/28/06 9:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... asks of Matheesha: > k: But you said many times concentration is fundamental for panna. > How come these acetics did not become enlightement while Buddha is? > and later asks: > k: You still have not explain to me how come ascetics and teachers > before Buddha who are great meditators never become enlighted? ========================= If I may butt in with an answer of mine: 1) With regard to your first question: Concentration is requisite but insufficient. 2) With regard to your second related question: Many children take music lessons, but not all become virtuosos. Of those who do not, either they lack the talent or their pratice is inadequate in some way or both. The talent ("accumulations" in DSG-speak) must be there, but more importantly, ll aspects of the practice need to be there, not just some aspects. The absorptive, focussed meditation techniques of the Buddha's predecessors were insufficient. There are people around today, self-styled meditation masters, who think that absorption is all that is required for awakening, and they hawk that view all over the net and the meditation circuit. Most unfortunate. With metta, Howard #61939 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Simulataneous Double Meaning of Kaya = Group & Body sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > Dear Friend Sarah: > > It is true that both the abhidhamma and the commentaries define: > Kaya-passaddhi as calm of feeling, perception and mental construction. > Citta-passaddhi as calm of consciousness. > The physical body is not even mentioned! > Which is somewhat strange IMHO. ..... S: The sutta is talking about the nutrients for the bojjhangas, the enlightenment factors. The bojjhangas are mental namas, not physical rupas. We read about followers of the Buddha becoming enlightened in all matter of physical difficulty -- i.e on death beds, attempting suicide, being charged at by cows, burning curries and so on. I'm sure you remember the sutta about the two arrows and so on. I just found the sutta you referred to f(rom your ref. to the Pali) in B.Bodhi's SN. (The ref. for others interested in his translation is 46:2, 'the nutriments for the enlightenment factors') "There are, bhikkhus, tranquillity of body, tranquillity of mind*: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity." What's interesting is that he gives a commentary note and then one of his own in which he (personally, I assume) rather agrees with your further comments. "Spk: Tranquillity of body (kaayappassaddhi) is the tranquillizing of distress in the three mental aggregates (feeling, perception, volitional formations), tranquillizing of mind (cittappassaddhi)the tranquillizing of distress in the aggregate of consciousness." S: So far so good. His note continues: "The commentaries frequently interpret the pair, body and mind, mentioned in the texts in the light of the Abhidhamma, which draws a contrast between mind (citta), the chief factor in cognition, and its accompanying 'body' of mental factors (cetasikas), which perform secondary cognitive functions. *It seems, however, that in such passages as the present one, 'body' was intended quite literally as meaning the physical body, considered as actively contributing to the qualitative tone of an experience.*" S: I really don't know how he comes to his conclusion in the last sentence. There is nothing in the sutta that I can see. ..... > However the Buddha explained once that when a man > after working hard came and lied down under a tree. > Then his body calmed down (heart-beat, muscle-tension etc.) > Then after that and naturally conditioned by that: > His mind also calmed down... > Mental calm cannot ever exist in an agitated body! .... S: Was he talking about insight and the development of the bojjhangas? Perhaps we could look at a reference. .... > > The reverse relation between a stressed mind that > induces a tense body is also true: When this mind is calmed down > and relaxed, then the neck-myosis of the tense body also relaxes... > Bodily calm cannot ever co-exist with an agitated mind! > > Caused by these obvious direct observations > and the Buddha specifically pointing to the > physical body also when talking about calm > I am currently inclined to think that: > > Kaya-passaddhi has these two simultaneous meanings: > The primary: Calm of the physical body. > The subtle: Calm of the mental group of feeling > perception and construction. .... S: Certainly kaaya can refer to the physical body or the cetasikas (mental body). But do you have any reference to kaya-passaddhi clearly referring to 'calm of the physical body'? In any case, I'm sure that when it's used in conjunction with citta-passaddhi, it always refers to the pair of calm of cetasikas and citas. .... > In the beginning of a meditative career > the primary meaning is important... > For the more advanced meditator > the subtle meaning gains lucidity!!! > The Buddha (& I) target both these groups, > with the very same message, which thus can > be understood at two -both true- levels! > Economic communication! > > Thanx for this good pointing out! ..... S: Thank you for pointing out your understanding. I appreciate that this is a very common understanding. I'd like to see more textual support for it however! With respect and metta, Sarah ======== #61940 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:33 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 91 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 91. Faculty-Condition (Indriya-Paccaya) Intro: The Påli word "indriya'' means strength, governing or controlling principle. Indriyas are "leaders'' for the associated dhammas, but they are leaders each in their own field. In the case of indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) has leadership, great control, over the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas). Some indriyas are rúpa and some are nåma. They are the following: The five senses which are the faculties of eye, ear, nose, tongue and bodysense, mind-faculty (all eighty-nine types of citta) life faculty (one is rúpa and one is nåma) bodily pleasure faculty pain faculty pleasant feeling faculty unpleasant feeling faculty equanimity (indifferent feeling) faculty faith faculty energy faculty mindfulness faculty concentration faculty understanding faculty "I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown''faculty (an- a~n~nåta~n~nassåmii't'indriya), which is lokuttara pa~n~naa accompanying the path-consciousness of the sotaapanna. The higher knowledge faculty (a~n~nindriya), which is lokuttara pa~n~nå accompanying the phalacitta (fruition consciousness, lokuttara vipåkacitta) of the sotåpanna, the magga-citta and the phalacitta of the sakadågåmí (once-returner who has realised the second stage of enlightenment), and those of the anågåmii (non- returner,who has realised the third stage of enlightenment), and also the magga-citta of the arahat. The faculty of him who knows (aññåtåvindriya), which is the phalacitta of the arahat. These twenty faculties are faculty-condition. The rúpas which are femininity faculty and masculinity faculty (itthindriya and purisindriya) have been classified as faculties, since they condition the characteristic marks, appearance and disposition of the sexes. However, they are not faculty-condition; they do not condition other phenomena by way of faculty- condition. _______ Text Vis. 91: (16) Leaving out the femininity and masculinity faculties, the twenty remaining faculties (see Ch. XVI,1), which assist in the sense of predominance, are 'faculty conditions'. -------- N: The Tiika explains that this condition is different from predominance-condition. As we have seen (Vis. XVII, 72) There are four factors which condition other realities they arise together with by way of conascent-predominance-condition, and these are: chanda (desire-to-do) viriya (energy or effort) citta vima.msa (investigation of Dhamma, pa~n~nå cetasika). Only one of these at a time is predominance-condition and this cannot be said of the faculties that are faculty-condition. ---------- Text Vis.: Herein, the five, namely, the eye faculty, etc., are conditions only for immaterial states, the rest are conditions for material and immaterial states, according as it is said: 'The eye faculty [is a condition, as faculty condition,] for eye-consciousness element [and for the states associated therewith]. The ear faculty ... The nose faculty ... The tongue faculty ... The body faculty is a condition, as faculty condition, for the body- consciousness element and for the states associated therewith. ----------- N: The eye-faculty is a faculty-condition for seeing, in the sense of domination (issariya). It has a leading function in the occurrence of seeing and it is the same in the case of the other sense organs. --------- Text Vis.: The material life faculty is a condition, as faculty condition, for the kind of materiality due to kamma performed. ---------- N: The ruupa that is jivitindriya, life-faculty, occurs in all groups of ruupa of the body originating from kamma. For example, it conditions eye-sense by way of faculty-condition. It does not occur in the groups of bodily phenomena originating from citta, temperature or nutrition. There is also naama jivitindriya, and this is the cetasika jivitindriya arising with each citta. The Tiika adds that this conditions the aruupa dhammas by way of faculty-condition. ------------ Text Vis.: The immaterial faculties are a condition, as faculty condition, for the states associated therewith and for the kinds of materiality originated thereby' P.tn.1,5-6). ------- N: The Tiika mentions different faculties that are naama and these condition the associated naama-dhammas as well as mind-produced ruupas. The Tiika mentions manindriya, the faculty of mind or citta, including all cittas. Citta is a leader, it has dominance over the associated cetasikas in cognizing an object. The Tiika explains that feelings, beginning with happy feeling, condition the associated dhammas by way of faculty-condition by their nature of happiness, etc. As to the faculty of, ‘I shall come to know what is not known’ (an- a~n~nåta~n~nassåmii't'indriya), the pa~n~naa accompanying the magga- citta of the sotaapanna, the Tiika adds that determination (adhimokkha) and energy support calm and understanding. The Tiika mentions in the context of the lokuttara faculty of the sotaapanna, that confidence (saddhaa) and so on perform their functions while they arise together by being faculty-condition for the associated dhammas. Included are also the faculties of energy, mindfulness, concentration and understanding. Among these five faculties energy and concentration can be akusala or sobhana, the other three are always sobhana. The five sobhana faculties are sometimes referred to as the "spiritual faculties'' and these have to be developed together. The Tiika states that a question is asked why the masculinity and femininity faculties are not faculty-condition, since they bring about bodily features. The answer is that this is true, but that they are not faculty-condition. For example life-faculty and nutrition are guarding and supporting other ruupas by presence-condition and non- absence-condition. Thus, while they are present to the other ruupas in the same group, they maintain them so that they continue to arise successively. The Tiika states that the sex faculties do not in that way assist other ruupas.They are faculties since they condition bodily features, but they are not faculty-conditions. ------------ Text Vis.: But in the Question Section it is said: 'At the moment of rebirth-linking resultant indeterminate faculties are a condition, as faculty condition, for associated aggregates and for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed' (P.tn.1,175). --------- N: At the moment of rebirth the mental faculties accompanying the rebirth-consciousness which is vipaakacitta condition the other naamadhammas and also the ruupa produced by kamma by way of faculty- condition. For example, feeling that accompanies the rebirth- consciousness is faculty-condition for the associated naama-dhammas and kamma-produced ruupa. Or vipaakacitta which is mind-faculty is faculty-condition for the other dhammas arising at that moment. ******* Conclusion: As we have seen, some of the faculties are rúpa and some are nåma. Kamma does not only produce rebirth-consciousness, but also the sense-cognitions, arising throughout life. There could not be seeing without the ruupa which is eyesense and this is also produced by kamma. The faculties which are the five senses have to arise prior to the nåmas theycondition by way of faculty-condition. Without the faculties there could not be theexperience of the different objects which impinge on the senses. Without the eye faculty visible object could not appear and without the ear faculty sound could not appear. The "world'' appears through the six doorways because there are the faculties performing their functions. We cling to a concept of self who can see, hear and think, all at the same time. In reality there is only one citta at a time which experiences one object. Each experience arises because of its appropriate conditions and falls away immediately, it is non-self. The five spiritual faculties are developed in samatha and then they lead to the attainment of jhåna. They condition the rúpåvacara cittas and arúpåvacara cittas by way of faculty-condition. The five spiritual faculties have to be developed in vipassanå. They overcome their opposites. Faith or confidence in wholesomeness overcomes lack of confidence. Understanding overcomes ignorance. They are included in the "factors of enlightenment'' (bodhipakkiya dhammas) which should be developed together for the attaining of enlightenment. They are conditions for the arising of the lokuttara faculties beginning with: ‘I shall come to know what is not known’, the pa~n~naa accompanying the magga-citta of the sotaapanna that eradicates all kinds of wrong view completely. As we read in the Tiika, calm and insight are supported by determination and energy. There has to be the firm determination to persevere with the development of right understanding of all dhammas appearing through the six doors, so that eventually the faculty of ‘I shall come to know what is not known’ will arise. *********** Nina. #61941 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice jonoabb Hi Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon, >I enjoyed your experience. It was the right time for the driver to >hear jhana, samsara. >I hope he joins. >Nina. > > Thanks, but I don't think he'll join at this stage. Perhaps he and I will keep in touch off-list though. Jon #61942 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting (to Jon) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Thanks. Could you add anything about the meaning in the context of >the talk, and this thread? I think it was from last year in India. > > The Thai 'mai phak, mai phien' is the equivalent of 'not taking a footing and not exerting'. It is the sutta about crossing the flood, from SN 1:1. The Bodhi translation gives 'not halting and not straining' (p. 89 of CDB). According to the commentary, the Buddha's used deliberately language here in order to elicit a further question from the devataa. See the extensive notes at pages 342, 343 of the Bodhi translation (which I know you have). Happy to discuss further when you've had a chance to look at the text. Scott's original post is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/61769 Jon #61943 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:57 am Subject: Feeding Calm buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Ven. Samahita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ..... > S: Thank you for pointing out your understanding. I appreciate that this > is a very common understanding. I'd like to see more textual support for > it however! I will be frank, this is the kind of post of yours that really irritates me! Ven. Samahita and B. Bodhi have both explained in reasonable terms how there are two types of tranquility: tranquility of body and tranquility of mind. But you pick out one Pali term: Kaya-passaddhi, and define it in terms of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries, while completely ignoring the content and context of the sutta. So, according to you, there are two types of tranquility: tranquility of mind and tranquility of mind! Oh, that really clears things up! ;-) Just because a few odd people (very rare) became enlightened during a stressful moment, that doesn't mean that those people didn't have the accumulations of tranquility of body and mind. And your motives are as transparent as glass: you want to discredit the value of meditation. Metta, James #61944 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/28/06 9:32:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: > Hi Howard > > thanks for the patient to continue talking this subject with me. > > > >> > >------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > You are reading more into being coreless than I mean or than > >is meant > >by others. To be coreless is merely to lack own-being. Sounds, and > >hardnesses, > >and so on, all arise and are observable and are distiguishable, but > >none of > >them has own-being. In the Phena Sutta, the Buddha said all > >elements of the > >five khandhas are insubstantial. They are coreless. > >------------------------------------ > > k: isnt lack of own being means lack of self. They are > insubstantial of self and not itself insubstantial. And that will > mean it does not exist because substantial is essential nature or > essential characteristics. If it lack its characteristics, how does > it be visible. How does this experience being consistant for all > the experience of pleasant feeling as pleasant. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken we are now in the "repetition stage", which is the point at which I bow out. Lacking self or own being is what I mean by 'insubstantial', and I do not deny distinguishablily of phenomena. Hardness is a different quality than sound, and the distinction is observable. They are the same only in lacking self (and the other two of the tilakkhana), being utterly dependent on other equally empty conditions. ------------------------------------------------- > > > > How could a> > >>feeling be experience if it is without substance? > >----------------------------------- > >Howard: > > You had better check with the Buddha as to how that is > >possible. In > >the Phena Sutta the Buddha said < >â€â€? when it's raining in fat, heavy drops â€â€? a water bubble were > to appear &disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were > to see it, observe it, &appropriately examine it. To him â€â€? seeing > it, observing it, &appropriately examining it â€â€? it would appear > empty, void, without substance: for what substance> would there be > in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & > appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; > internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > near. To him â€> seeing it, observing it, &appropriately examining > it â€â€? it would appear empty, void, without > >substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?>> > > Look at how he described feeling, Ken: as "empty, void, > >without substance." That's the Buddha speaking, Ken, not me! > >--------------------------------------------- > > k: Please look the three words again, isn't void is synoymous with > empty. Isn't lack of susbtance synoymous with void. These are three > words to emphasis the meaning of emptiness. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, yes. So? ------------------------------------------------- In addition, the lack of> > susbtance does not mean dhamma is not unique or it does not meant it > lack its own characteristics. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I never said it did, and I don't say it now!! What's wrong here, Ken? You set up a straw man and keep on trying to knock him down. This is becoming silly. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Because if all dhammas lack its own> > characteristics, there will be no pleasant and unpleasant feelings. > there will no differentiation. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jesus! ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > Cheers > Ken O > > ======================== Ken, I think it best to drop the thread now, as we are talking past each other instead of to each other. I have nothing that I can add to the discussion at this point. Sorry. :-) With metta, Howard #61945 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) nilovg Hi Matheesha, No, I did not know. Do you have a reference perhaps? Nina Op 28-jul-2006, om 13:51 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > I've heard it being said that there is a difference between ariya > sravaka and ariya puggala. Do you know more about this? #61946 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) matheesha333 Hi Nina, > > Hi Matheesha, > No, I did not know. Do you have a reference perhaps? > Nina > Op 28-jul-2006, om 13:51 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > > > I've heard it being said that there is a difference between ariya > > sravaka and ariya puggala. Do you know more about this? > M: I remember a monk (Ven. Premasiri) in sri lanka who was an expert in abhidhamma and head monk of the vipassana centre in colombo telling me this. Him an his teachers were monks who meditated in jungles north of the island and studied the thripitaka, including abhidhamma several times over! They slept very little and would be in vipassana mode the rest of the time in the jungle. I remember him saying that a monk who meditates 10 hours a day isnt trying hard enough! He suggested that any one can be an ariya sravaka if they had good mundane knowledge of the dhamma. An ariya puggala was someone who had attained paths and fruit. I vaguely remember reading some sutta somewhere (not very helpful, I know!) and thinking, yes, the contents did fit in with that idea. I hope someone here might know a bit more about it. with metta Matheesha ps- thank you for reminding me about him actually. it reminds me of how very little we are doing to further the path. these people are truly worthy of veneration. #61947 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Simulataneous Double Meaning of Kaya = Group & Body matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > > "There are, bhikkhus, tranquillity of body, tranquillity of mind*: > frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the > arising of unarisen enlightenment factor of tranquillity and for the > fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of > tranquillity." > > What's interesting is that he gives a commentary note and then one of his > own in which he (personally, I assume) rather agrees with your further > comments. > > "Spk: Tranquillity of body (kaayappassaddhi) is the tranquillizing of > distress in the three mental aggregates (feeling, perception, volitional > formations), tranquillizing of mind (cittappassaddhi)the tranquillizing of > distress in the aggregate of consciousness." > > S: So far so good. His note continues: > > "The commentaries frequently interpret the pair, body and mind, mentioned > in the texts in the light of the Abhidhamma, which draws a contrast > between mind (citta), the chief factor in cognition, and its accompanying > 'body' of mental factors (cetasikas), which perform secondary cognitive > functions. *It seems, however, that in such passages as the present one, > 'body' was intended quite literally as meaning the physical body, > considered as actively contributing to the qualitative tone of an > experience.*" > > S: I really don't know how he comes to his conclusion in the last > sentence. There is nothing in the sutta that I can see. > ..... M: He is saying that the commentary is misguided. He wouldnt be the first learned monk to think so either. He takes body to mean body and not mind again, as that would be rather irrational form of labelling. Do you know the range of rupas the body can give rise to? Have you ever been completely relaxed after, a warm bath, nice meal and feeling physically good? Softness is another type of patavi. Your body can feel very many different things. How does it feel when it is tired, drained, tense, heavy? with metta Matheesha #61948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:38 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 36 nilovg Dear friends, As regards akusala kamma-patha through the mind, ill-will, the intention to hurt or harm someone else, is performed with dosa-múla- citta; covetousness and wrong view are performed with lobha-múla- citta. There is akusala kamma-patha which is covetousness when one intends to obtain by dishonest means what belongs to someone else. As regards di.t.thi (wrong view), there are many kinds of di.t.thi; however, three kinds of di.t.thi are akusala kamma-patha through the mind. One of them is ahetuka-di.t.thi, the belief that there is no cause for the existence of beings and no cause for their purity or corruption. Another wrong view which is akusala kamma-patha through the mind is akiriyå-di.t.thi, the belief that there are no good and bad deeds which produce their results. The third wrong view which is akusala kamma-patha through the mind is natthika-di.t.thi or annihilation view. Natthika-di.t.thi is the belief that there is no result of kamma and that there is no further life after death. All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are like slaves so long as we are absorbed in and infatuated with the objects which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be kind to us, but the next moment they may behave in an unpleasant way towards us. If we attach too much importance to the affection of others, we shall be easily disturbed in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we ourselves and other people are only nåma and rúpa, phenomena arising because of conditions and falling away again. When others speak in an unpleasant way to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way, and there are conditions which cause us to hear such speech. Other people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenomena which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have fallen away already. The development of insight is the way to become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is more understanding of the present moment, we will attach less importance to the way people behave towards us. ****** Nina. #61949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:54 am Subject: Letters from Nina 17 nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of the letter to Susan Elbaum Jootla) We may think that we know nama and rupa already through direct understanding, we believe that there is no thinking. Then, when we listen again we find out that maybe there was some quick thinking in between, not yet developed pañña which directly understands. Tanha (clinging) is most tricky, it takes many forms we may not notice it all, it misleads us all the time. It seems to me the development must go like this: we think that we have realized something, and then we learn that it is not like that, that it is not what we imagined. The warning in the Visuddhimagga about Imperfections of Insight impresses me very much (Vis. XX, 105). Even someone who realises the stages of tender insight (taruna vipassana) which are the realisation through direct experience of the difference between nama and rupa, realising the conditions for their arising, and 'comprehension by groups', which begins to attend to rise and fall , someone who has realised all that, can stilll be lured by clinging. I asked Khun Sujin what do to prevent being misled. She said that one should continue being aware of nama and rupa, and then it can be found out whether one is on the right Path or the wrong Path. It seems very reasonable to me that one should not flee from tanha or suppress it, but realize it as a kind of nama. How otherwise would we know that it is there and playing tricks with us? I find it very logical that we should consider what has to be known first; we cannot jump to the realisation of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa so long as we are not sure when seeing appears to the sati and when visible object, when hearing, when sound, when the tangible objects such as heat, cold, hardness or softness, and when the nama which experiences these rupas. Indeed, it is difficult to discern precisely nama and rupa. It is all in a confusing mass, but it is good to know what we do not know yet. Sati which arises with kusala citta can only have one object: either a nama or rupa. If we are not sure, what falls away at which moment? A "whole" of namas and rupas? From your book, from what I read, I think you know that so long as we think of a whole body, or a conglomeration of nama and rupa together, there is no right view, but wrong view of self. Khun Sujin explained that when there is the first vipassana nana, discerning nama and rupa, it arises in a mind-door process. It is clear that this is so. Processess of citta go so fast, there is seeing, there is hearing, but in-between there are mind door processes. Seeing experiences visible object, and after the eye-door process is over, there is is a mind-door process of cittas which experience the rupa which is visible object. Thus, there must be mind- door processes of cittas after the eye-door process is over, before there can be hearing which experiences sound, and a mind-door process of cittas that also experience sound. Afterwards mind-door processes of cittas arise which think about the concept of shape and form, or the meaning of sound, cittas which think on account of the objects that have been experienced through the senses. We cannot catch processes of cittas, we cannot catch mind-door processes, but when it is time for the arising of direct understanding, of insight, the difference between sense-door process and mind-door process is known, no more doubt. Rupa can be experienced through a sense-door and through the mind- door and nama can be experienced only through the mind-door. The first stage of insight, vipassana ~nana which clearly knows the difference between nama and rupa has to arise in a mind-door process, and there have to be several of these processes since either nama or rupa is the object of insight. Thus, when one one learns about such details, one learns what one does not know yet. This is beneficial. I have heard it said that the stages of vipassana which are tender insight are just intellectual knowledge. This could not be so, because how can one realise the arising and falling away of nama and rupa if there is not clear, direct understanding by insight, thus, no doubt about nama and rupa. I think that such idea may be the reason that in some books the stages of tender insight are not mentioned. There is a tendency to deal immediately with the three general characteristics of reality: impermanence, dukkha and anatta. However, I think that one should start at the beginning: different characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of nama and rupa have to be known as they appear one at a time . ***** Nina #61950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) nilovg Hi Matheesha, right, an ariyan has attained path-consciousness and fruition- consciousness, thus lokuttara cittas. It depends what kind of knowledge one should have as a condition. Not merely book knowledge for sure. Many condiitons have to be fulfilled. As to tranquillity of citta and of kaya, the tiika to the Visuddhimagga had a remark: that tranquillity of kaya, the cetasikas, also conditioned the body. I have to look at the cetasikas under tranquillity, but no time now. There are all these pairs, of body and of mind. Nina. Op 28-jul-2006, om 19:52 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > He suggested that any one can be an ariya sravaka if they had good > mundane knowledge of the dhamma. An ariya puggala was someone who > had attained paths and fruit. #61951 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sandhi jonoabb Hi Connie, and All Great stuff, Connie! (But you knew I'd like it ;-)) To all, the extract Connie has quoted here bears directly on the subject of reading each sutta in the context of the body of suttas as a whole. If you missed it the first time around, Connie's original post is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/61889 Jon connie wrote: >without further comment before i head off to work & as long as no one's >listening anyway, this morning's -uh- subject follows: > >THE ALL-EMBRACING NET OF VIEWS >Part Three: The Method of the Exegetical Treatises >The Sixteen Modes of Conveyance >6. The Mode of Conveying the Fourfold Array (catubyuuhahaara). >(iv) The Sequence (sandhi). >(f) The "sequence of teaching" is the coherence between the teaching (in >this sutta) and the teaching (in other suttas.) It may be illustrated by >the following examples. >The teaching, "If others speak in dispraise of me ... you should not give >way to animosity in your heart," this links up with the simile of the saw: >"If bhikkhus, robbers should cut you up limb for limb with a >double-handled saw, he who feels anger in his heart would not be a >follower of my teaching" (M.21). >"You would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves" - this links up >with the teaching that "beings are the owners of their kamma, heirs to >their kamma" (M.135). >... > > #61952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:17 pm Subject: tranquillity of body. nilovg Hi Sarah, Matheesha, James, I found the text in the Visuddhimagga ch XIV, 144, about the six pairs, beginning with tranquillity. All of you are right!! The Commentary to the ‘Abhidhammattha Sangaha’ (T.A. p 64) mentions that calm of cetasikas also conditions bodily phenomena: Nina. #61953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abidhamma origins nilovg Dear Charles D, I understand that you find it confusing. We still listen to the Dhamma the Buddha taught, who could deny that? The Tathagata arose in the world we read. He also taught that what we take for a person are five khandhas, nama an rupa, arising and falling away all the time. Thus, when we say, there is no person this does not mean: there is nothing. We studied the five khandhas in the Visuddhimagga, and vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, include all cittas, even cittas that attain enlightenment! But after they have arisen they fall away. Thus, this does not mean that they have never been. Nina. Op 27-jul-2006, om 22:22 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > So, by saying "it was by conventional Language that the Buddha existed > (past, present, or future) -- the Buddha existed." And if I leave > out the > term, "conventional language," it means the Buddha never existed > (past, > present, or future)? -- Meaning that neither the 5 khandhas nor the > "Buddha" > have been reborn at any time? #61954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Born with pa~n~na. nilovg Dear Scott, Excellent daily life example. It is great that you consider the different cittas. But what a mixture we all are. All of us really. When feeling sad there is dosa, but we may also cling to sadness, at a different moment. Then realizing this, and that is good. Considering in the right way is done with pa~n~naa, but since cittas change so very fast, there can even be clinging to that. Kh sujin would say: it is still you, and this could feel like a cold shower. We cannot really point to cittas: this is this, that is that. They are gone before we know it. Different characteristics appear and in that way we learn more, very gradually. It is good to learn about maha-kusala cittas, but we may easily cling to names. As long as we know this there is no danger. When there is kusala citta there is purity of mind, no clinging, there is detachment. But it is so ephemeral. Phil would say: beware of lobha. It plays tricks, comes in disguise of kusala, it seems so calm. We can be more sure about all this after the first stage of vipassana, knowing the difference between nama and rupa, and this is already difficult enough for us. Nina. Op 28-jul-2006, om 13:48 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > totally caught up in the "exquisite sadness" and then the > thought: "This is deep, deep clinging - this moment of exquisite > sadness is a pristine moment of lobha-mula citta." The feeling shifts > immediately upon this thought and seems rather intense and joyful as > another thought arises: "Noticing the clinging is a moment of > 'mahaa-kusula citta with pa~n~na,' there is no "forever," and there is > no wife anymore, only that feeling which, in clinging to it as if it > were my wife, comes to feel so 'exquisite.'" > > I don't actually know the exact meaning of "mahaa-kusula citta," I > had been, as I noted, reading about this before falling asleep > earlier. > > I wonder if the above is an example of the way these things come about > in the course of a day. I hope this isn't out of line. #61955 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:18 pm Subject: causality behaviour matheesha333 Hi everyone, I wonder if anyone could explain what is happening below in terms of causality. Also contrasting that with what is considered normal? ---------------------------------------------------- The syndromes of "imitation behaviour," "utilisation behaviour," and "environmental dependency" were described by Lhermitte and colleagues in a series of presentations, video demonstrations, and publications in the 1980s.1-5 Since then, these striking clinical phenomena have been abundantly detailed.6-12 The term "utilisation behaviour" is applied to a peculiar pattern of actions, linked to frontal lobe dysfunction, in which patients display an exaggerated dependency on the environment for behavioural cues. When an object is placed before them they tend to act on that object (for example, use a hammer, pour water from a pitcher, write on a piece of paper), even when told not to, and even when they admit that they were told not to. The term "imitation behaviour" refers to a condition in which patients imitate the gestures and behaviour of an examiner, even when asked not to. Imitation behaviour is considered to be a milder version of utilisation behaviour, and both are part of the more comprehensive environmental dependency syndrome. http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/68/2/224 ------------------------------------- with metta Matheesha #61956 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] causality behaviour upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 7/28/06 4:21:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi everyone, > > I wonder if anyone could explain what is happening below in terms of > causality. Also contrasting that with what is considered normal? -------------------------------------- Howard: I'll tell you the thoughts that immediately came to mind, but I'm not by any means assured of these thoughts being correct. -------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > The syndromes of "imitation behaviour," "utilisation behaviour," > and "environmental dependency" were described by Lhermitte and > colleagues in a series of presentations, video demonstrations, and > publications in the 1980s.1-5 Since then, these striking clinical > phenomena have been abundantly detailed.6-12 > > The term "utilisation behaviour" is applied to a peculiar pattern of > actions, linked to frontal lobe dysfunction, in which patients > display an exaggerated dependency on the environment for behavioural > cues. When an object is placed before them they tend to act on that > object (for example, use a hammer, pour water from a pitcher, write > on a piece of paper), even when told not to, and even when they > admit that they were told not to. ----------------------------------------- Howard: This behavior struck me as rather rational! They had no basis for understanding the reason for the object being placed in front of them! But they assumed that such a definite act had to have been for a reason. The obvious reason was for them to apply the object according to its standard function. When told not to, they probably suspected a trap or a trick, and so, out of distrust or paranoia, they went ahead and did what made sense to them to do anyway. -------------------------------------------- > > The term "imitation behaviour" refers to a condition in which > patients imitate the gestures and behaviour of an examiner, even > when asked not to. Imitation behaviour is considered to be a milder > version of utilisation behaviour, and both are part of the more > comprehensive environmental dependency syndrome. ------------------------------------ Howard: My initial thought on this was that it was in deference to authority, or to please an authority figure - "imitation being te sincerest form of flattery". I'm ot sure why they continue with that, though, when told to stop. Perhaps a form of child-like rebellion. ----------------------------------- > > http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/68/2/224 > > > ------------------------------------- > > with metta > > Matheesha > ===================== Now, my question, Matheesha: What is it about this that particularly interests you? With metta, Howard #61957 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James and All > > Not directly related to your post, but Sarah and I had an interesting > experience this morning. We were in a taxi and, as is our habit, were > reading to each other from the print-outs of the latest set of posts. > We stopped at some traffic lights. Sarah and I had just remarked to > each other how lucky we were with the taxi driver (polite, not too > speedy, happily turned down the volume on the local radio and his 2-way > radio, etc), when he said, in perfect English,"'Excuse me, but are you > talking about Buddhism. I heard you say 'samsara' and 'jhana'." > > As you can imagine, we nearly fell out of the cab in surprise! It turns > out that Eric is *very* interested in Theravada Buddhism and had just > done a several-day retreat. He is particularly interested in meditation > and sees that as the best way of getting to the heart of the teachings. > Naturally we told him about DSG and have invited him to join. > > Anyway, this little anecdote is just to indicate that anyone genuinely > interested in the teachings is welcome here. Of course, there is a > range of views expressed in the discussion, and anyone giving a view can > expect to have it questioned, sometimes at length, but inevitably by > reference to the recorded teachings. I think that is as it should be, too. > > Jon > > PS In case you're wondering, yes, I warned Eric that I am seen as being > 'anti-meditation'!!. He didn't seem to be the least concerned about > that. We discussed briefly the idea of 'meditation' in daily life. As > we parted when he dropped us off (at the beach) I said we were going to > do some surfing meditation. I could see that was a novel concept to him > ;-)) Thanks for this very cute story! You sure do seem to have a light touch lately. That's good, now when we meet for lunch I won't have to perform an exorcism of Mara! ;-)). But I wonder what the moral of your story is. If Eric joins this group, and he believes that meditation is the heart of the Buddha's teaching, he is going to be faced with endless debates which question that core belief. Why do you want him to join? Do you want to convince him that his meditation practice is wrong? Do you want him to debate with the members of the group to make it livelier? Do you have an unconscious desire for him to convince you of the usefulness of meditation? ;-)) Remember, Eric didn't express any interest in learning about the Abhidhamma, he expressed an interest in practicing jhana. Would this be the right group for him- where he has to justify his interest in practicing jhana every time he posts? Metta, James #61958 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:16 pm Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina > The sutta referring to ariyans can also be applied by us, it is an > encouragement to all of us. Hmm. Let's not forget that you are a person who has...how shall I put it..an accumulated tendency towards the arising of moments of right understanding. Does that apply to most people who come across suttas? No. So people read about the attainments of the ariyans and think that they would like to do that too, have that too. I think of "burning." I'm sure there are countless people who, as I did, read that sutta and think "well, the 'all' is burning with greed, hatred and delusion. That's terrible! Hmm. Well, look here! The instructed noble disciple gets by this by developing revulsion (etc.) *I* have been studying hard and meditating and doing a pretty darn good job at following the precepts. I am pretty much a noble instructed disciple, aren't I? OK, let's get to work on developing this revulsion!" The results of this, of course, lead people off the path. I have exagerated the mental processes that go on (as they did for me) but they are dangerous even in more subtle forms. We should be very, very careful when handling suttas. They reflect the understanding of the Buddha and his disciples, not our own. Yes, inspiration, if there is right understanding of where they were and where we are. But I really do feel that - in this age of "Here's a Link to Access to Insight" - the suttas are thrown around by people without understanding in a way that leads to more delusion rather than less, a lot of the time. Phil #61959 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting (to Jon) philofillet Hi Jon Thanks for the below. Another way in which the Buddha's teaching goes against the ways of the world. Understanding of dhammas cannot be achieved by setting goals and earnestly pursuing them. There is too much attachment there. Becoming sotapanna does not equal getting an M.B.U (Master of Buddhist Understanding) as many people would like to think it does. Phil > The Thai 'mai phak, mai phien' is the equivalent of 'not taking a > footing and not exerting'. It is the sutta about crossing the flood, > from SN 1:1. The Bodhi translation gives 'not halting and not > straining' (p. 89 of CDB). According to the commentary, the Buddha's > used deliberately language here in order to elicit a further question > from the devataa. See the extensive notes at pages 342, 343 of the > Bodhi translation (which I know you have). > #61960 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Not taking a footing and not exerting scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Good reply. K: "It was a dangerous statement for me to make. Seen from the perspective of either eternity belief or annihilation belief, the Dhamma can be made to sound stupid. E.g., "Since I don't exist, I needn't bother doing the right thing." Yes, I know you didn't mean to say that but I think that this is a level of understanding at which some find themselves balking. Or this has been used to argue against the deeper view that is anatta; a literal or concrete understanding of anatta can take this absurd form. K: "Even in the absence of wrong view, ignorance (moha) will prevent Dhamma from making sense. For as long as we can't see the ultimate unreality of mowing the lawn or taking out the garbage, those concepts will remain onerous." Would it be fair to suggest that moha contributes to the illusion that continuity equals persistence? Or is this illusion itself ignorance? K: "So what did you mean by, "the intricate conditionally related flux?" I think you must have been referring to a concept of some kind. When there is right understanding of concepts and realities, does any concept (mowing the lawn or helping the needy) really matter? Sorry if I am misconstruing your words. That's what you get when you talk to a controversialist. :-)" No, you got it. Now I'll worry because it must be controversial. I was referring exactly to a concept: relationships with other people. I guess this might be controversial, but only if one uses the absurd argument that to talk about anatta in a deep sense, pursuing it to its utmost implications is to say that one "doesn't believe" in the significance of relating with others. What I meant by the really overly-wrought (and hence rejectable) phrase "the intricate conditionally related flux" was simply what one conventionally calls relationships. Does that make sense? What do you think, oh controversial one? With loving kindness, Scott. #61961 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH ken_aitch Hi Howard and Ken O, ---------- H: > Ken we are now in the "repetition stage", which is the point at which I bow out. Lacking self or own being is what I mean by 'insubstantial', and I do not deny distinguishablily of phenomena. ----------- You must accept that this is going to happen, Howard. While you continue to talk about dhammas in a way that is unique in some way, people are going to wonder why. All of us at DSG describe anatta as the absence of self. You, however, insist on adding "absence of own being" or "absence of self-existence." There must be some reason for this, and it is possibly a deep-seated difference in our understandings. Most of us have discussed it with you at one time or another, but no satisfactory conclusion has ever been reached. Ken O and I are no different; we just have more trouble than others in letting it go. Ken H #61962 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/28/06 9:01:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard and Ken O, > > ---------- > H: > Ken we are now in the "repetition stage", which is the point at > which I bow out. Lacking self or own being is what I mean by > 'insubstantial', and I do not deny distinguishablily of phenomena. > ----------- > > You must accept that this is going to happen, Howard. While you > continue to talk about dhammas in a way that is unique in some way, > people are going to wonder why. ---------------------------------------- Howard: There is nothing unique in how I am speaking except possible on DSG. I don't know what you think 'self' means, but it is not identical with 'person'. If that were what it is, why would anyone be surprised that hardness is not self, that visual objects are not self, that sounds are not self! Did you ever think that hardness was "you" or visual objects or or sounds? What do you think an alleged "soul" is supposed to be if not a self-existent core of being within and as basis for the emperical person? --------------------------------------- > > All of us at DSG describe anatta as the absence of self. You, however, > insist on adding "absence of own being" or "absence of > self-existence." There must be some reason for this, and it is > possibly a deep-seated difference in our understandings. > > Most of us have discussed it with you at one time or another, but no > satisfactory conclusion has ever been reached. Ken O and I are no > different; we just have more trouble than others in letting it go. > > Ken H > ===================== The bottom line on all this was Ken's claim that substantiality had nothing to do with anatta. I gave suttas to show that is not so. If you and KenO aren't interested, that's fine. I'm out of the discussion of this thread, Ken. With metta, Howard #61963 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) buddhatrue Hi Phil (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina > > > The sutta referring to ariyans can also be applied by us, it is an > > encouragement to all of us. > > Hmm. Let's not forget that you are a person who has...how shall I put > it..an accumulated tendency towards the arising of moments of right > understanding. Does that apply to most people who come across suttas? > > No. First, you sure are posting a lot lately! Your wife is going to spank your bottom! ;-)) Second, just because it may seem that a sutta is addressed only to ariyans, that doesn't mean it is only suited for them. All of the suttas, regardless of their content, are suited for everyone. Take for example the death of Anathapindika, a householder who had never received the training in the higher dhamma. While he was dying, Sariputta gave him a teaching on all of the highest dhamma- the dhamma he had never been taught as a householder. Here is part of the extract from the sutta (plz read the whole sutta): ..."Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself." When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears. Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?" "No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this." "This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth." "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it." Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html#dies Ven. Sariputa wouldn't have given this higher teaching to Anathapindika if it wasn't appropriate for him. And Anathapindika asked Sariputta to stop following tradition and to start giving these higher teachings to householders. So, in other words, if it seems that a sutta is addressed only to monks or ariyans, that is because of tradition during the Buddha's time- but it doesn't have to be followed. ALL of the suttas apply and can be helpful to EVERYONE. Metta, James #61964 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:29 pm Subject: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) buddhatrue Hi Math, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > M: I think this is an attempt to reduce strong feelings of anger, to > a less potent form perhaps so that it will pass away quickly. Buddha > was all for harm reduction. Yes, exactly!! Thank you for the insight. Unfortunately, like most people, I tend to see things in black and white. You have demonstrated that something the Buddha taught may be seen in the grey area. Thanks again! (Sorry I didn't see your post earlier or I would have responded sooner.) Metta, James #61965 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Born with pa~n~na. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the commentary. N: "When feeling sad there is dosa, but we may also cling to sadness, at a different moment." This is instructive. Where are emotions placed within Abhidhamma? I know there is pleasant, painful, and indifferent in terms of quality. The range of emotions as defined within the Dhamma seems less than conventionally considered. That is more are collapsed categorically into few. Sadness is included in dosa, which I think is anger or ill-will. This is almost counterintuitive from a conventional point of view. Interestingly enough, the psychoanalytic view on the psychodynamics of depression (a form of prolonged "sadness") is that it is the subjective experience of anger "turned inward" (as the aphorism goes). I go with the Dhamma over any other source but it is interesting that deep secular anaylysis of emotion essentially confirms this counterintuitive truth. N: "Considering in the right way is done with pa~n~naa, but since cittas change so very fast, there can even be clinging to that. Kh sujin would say: it is still you, and this could feel like a cold shower." Its unlikely, given my experience as described, that there was actually pa~n~na arising. There was a lot of thinking, as I describe it, which is really "story-telling" as Kh. Sujin would say. True Dhamma often feels like such a downer and usually sobers a guy up quick (metaphorically speaking). N: "We cannot really point to cittas: this is this, that is that. They are gone before we know it. Different characteristics appear and in that way we learn more, very gradually. It is good to learn about maha-kusala cittas, but we may easily cling to names. As long as we know this there is no danger." This is helpful. I see that I still cling to a need to have some confirmatory experience, which, I guess, I can then cling to anew. Again, I was just thinking for most of the described event. N: "When there is kusala citta there is purity of mind, no clinging, there is detachment. But it is so ephemeral. Phil would say: beware of lobha. It plays tricks, comes in disguise of kusala, it seems so calm." There may have been an instant of this at the moment the sadness/dosa switched to what I called "joy" or something. This was too fast to catch but the sign, if that can be said, was the change and the thinking about - was it? N: "We can be more sure about all this after the first stage of vipassana, knowing the difference between nama and rupa, and this is already difficult enough for us." This I'm still working to understand conceptually so experiential understanding is likely aeons away. I appreciate your help in this bhavana. With loving kindness, Scott. #61966 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:57 pm Subject: Re: sandhi scottduncan2 Dear connie, Thanks! c: "without further comment before i head off to work & as long as no one's listening anyway, this morning's -uh- subject follows: THE ALL-EMBRACING NET OF VIEWS Part Three: The Method of the Exegetical Treatises The Sixteen Modes of Conveyance 6. The Mode of Conveying the Fourfold Array (catubyuuhahaara). iv) The Sequence (sandhi). (f) The "sequence of teaching" is the coherence between the teaching (in this sutta) and the teaching (in other suttas.) It may be illustrated by the following examples..." Wow. Euphonically convergent. What a grasp of the suttas demonstrated in this short masterpiece. The ancients knew their stuff. Like a tapestry... Scott. #61967 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Cessation scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thank you very much for the below: H: "You said "I think you are correct." This pleases me very much, Scott, not so much that you agree - and, of course, you might well revise that opinion at some point, but, as I infer to be so, that your agreement signifies that you have paid attention to the reasons given for my opinion, that you have considered them, and that you have decided for yourself whether or not what I said makes sense. What pleases me so much is not your agreement, pleasant though that is, but your valuing truth as a paramattha, i.e., as a supreme goal, and your undertaking the task, yourself, of investigating what is true." You are a truly supportive friend in the Dhamma, Howard. I appreciate this very much. I'm sort of out here on my own and value my connection, albeit ethereal, to you (and all here). I do value truth as paramattha, as you say but it wasn't until you said so that I realised the truth. That is invaluable. Thanks again, Howard. With loving kindness, Scott. #61968 From: "Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:14 pm Subject: Equanimity bhanteseelag... One day a father decided to take his two children to go visit his parents. His son was 16 years old and his daughter was 14 years old. Being teenagers, they were not looking forward to the visit. They asked their father how long they were going to stay at their grandparent's home. The father could clearly see the children were restless and did not want to go visit the grandparents as they were preoccupied with their studies and felt they had no time to spare. The father patiently explained that it was important to him that his parents got to spend some time with their grandchildren. His clear explanation helped the children to see the importance of the visit and they became happy to go and see their grandparents. Upon their arrival, they saw that their grandparents had prepared a rich meal for them. The sight and smells of this food made them feel loved and welcomed by their grandparents. They became more and more happy at this chance to spend time with their grandparents and joined them in the kitchen to offer their help. The food on the table looked delicious and the teenagers had the desire to serve it to their grandparents. This feeling of gratitude and wanting to serve their grandparents arose so naturally and it surprised them as they had never wanted to serve anyone in this way before. Everyone enjoyed the meal together and shared it equally. After the meal, everyone was satisfied, happy, and peaceful. After spending two days with their grandparents, the father said it was time to leave. The son and daughter wanted to stay at least one more day and this made their father happy. The father and his children were busy during their visit helping the grandparents around the house. Everyone was so supportive and they all got along so well as they began to understand each other better. No one once raised a voice or made a complaint, everyone was happy and peaceful. After the extra day, the father and his children returned home and they continued to feel peaceful and stable in their minds. The children immediately made a strong decision to go back and spend the holidays with their grandparents. The experience at their grandparent's house helped them to develop the skills and concentration to overcome their restlessness and engage in their work with love and compassion. For the first times in their lives, they experienced the contentment and joy that comes with performing a selfless act. They did not feel sad when they left their grandparents though and wondered why. In the end, they realized that what they experienced was an incredible lesson and opportunity that they can incorporate into their lives everyday. The lesson did not end at their grandparent's door, but became a part of their everyday life. The two teenagers had the opportunity to experience the benefits of doing their duties with love and compassion. They realized that having love and compassion helps their heart and mind become quiet and peaceful and allows them to become their own counselor. Because of this initial experience, they became motivated to continue this practice of love and compassion and to continue to develop their equanimity. #61969 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:50 am Subject: attention Ven. Samahita. Fwd: [dsg] tranquillity of body. nilovg Venerable bhikkhu Samahita, I should have included you, venerable bhante, when I sent the below. with respect, Nina. Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 28 juli 2006 21:17:17 GMT+02:00 > Aan: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Onderwerp: [dsg] tranquillity of body. > Antwoord aan: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Hi Sarah, Matheesha, James, > I found the text in the Visuddhimagga ch XIV, 144, about the six > pairs, beginning with tranquillity. > All of you are right!! > > The Commentary to the ‘Abhidhammattha Sangaha’ (T.A. p 64) mentions > that calm of cetasikas also conditions bodily phenomena: tranquillity, etc., of consciousness brings about a state of > tranquillity, etc., of only consciousness, but tranquillity of the > body brings about these states of the material body also by virtue of > pervading the refined materiality arising from it; in order to make > this point as well, their twofold nature is stated.> > Nina. > #61970 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) matheesha333 Hi Phil, *I* have been studying hard > and meditating and doing a pretty darn good job at following the > precepts. I am pretty much a noble instructed disciple, aren't I? OK, > let's get to work on developing this revulsion!" > > The results of this, of course, lead people off the path. M: I agree with you. It is important to have someone to guide you on the path, to lay downs those core principles, so that you wont go astray. It can be a bit hit or miss, but this is just our minds wanting perfection, seeking sukha. (The paranoid-schizoid position, to throw in a bit of psychoanalysis!) No teacher is perfect (acceptance of this would be the depressive position, the more advanced 'normal' stage). No one's path is smooth. We can gain something from everyone. with metta Matheesha #61971 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Nina, 8. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for further addition to nimitta. Op 28-jul-2006, om 12:44 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: A technical question here on the sutta you quote: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> >We read in the 'Nandakovada-sutta' (Middle Length Sayings, III, > no. 146) that <...> > Already, revered sir, by means of perfect intuitive wisdom it has > been well seen by us as it really is that, "These six internal sense- > fields are impermanent." ' > > The six 'internal sense-fields' are the five senses and the mind. .... S: I assume the mind here refers to manaayatana, the 6th internal aayatana which includes all kinds of citta according to our Abh texts. Or does it just refer to the doorways here, i.e the bhavanga citta which acts as mind-door? ------ N: I compared with my Thai translation and this has mano, mind. I think all cittas. ..... >The > same is said about the six 'external sense-fields' : colours, sounds, > smells, flavours, tangibles and dhammas. The same is said about the > 'six classes of consciousness' which experience these objects. <....> ------- S: So after the internal and external aayatanas, it then gives the same for 'six classes of consciousness', again including all kinds of citta, surely? Is it just repetition or have I missed something? --------- N: Yes, a repetition but in another classification. It shows dhammas under different aspects. The Thai makes this clear. It gives headings: by way of the inner aayatanas, by way of the outer aayatanas, by way of vi~n~naana. by way of seven enlightenment factors. The Co does not add to this material. Nina. #61972 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:56 pm Subject: Feeding Equanimity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is Feeding the Equanimity Link to Awakening! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, just as this body, is sustained by feeding, exists in dependence on feeding and cannot survive without food, even & exactly so are the Seven Links to Awakening also sustained by feeding, they can also only exist in dependence on feeding and they cannot remain without feeding... And what, bhikkhus, is the feeding of the emergence of any yet unarisen Equanimity Link to Awakening and also feeding of the completion by condensation of any arisen Equanimity Link to Awakening? There are states that are the basis and source for the Equanimity Link to Awakening!! Frequently directing careful and rational attention to them, is feeding the emergence of unarisen Equanimity Link to Awakening & also feeding of the gradual fulfilment of any arisen Equanimity Link to Awakening... And what, Bhikkhus, is the starving that obstructs all emergence of a yet unarisen Equanimity Link to Awakening & which also hinders any already arisen Equanimity Link from reaching complete fulfilment by meditative development? There are states that are the basis and source for the Equanimity Link to Awakening!! Not giving frequent, careful and rational attention to them; not considering them much and often; is the starving that prevents an unarisen Equanimity Link to Awakening from arising and also blocks any already arisen Equanimity Link to Awakening from reaching any complete fulfilment through mental training in the form of frequent meditation... Comments from the classical commentaries: Imperturbable onlooking ballance is characteristic of the Equanimity Link to Awakening. (Upekkha-Sambojjhanga). Moderation, seeking the neutral middle, & composed control is the purpose of the quality of Equanimity (Upekkha). Imperturbability is the manifestation of the Equanimity Link to Awakening. This stable yet plastic patience purifies all the other advantageous mental states, which thus reach their maximum, when joined with Equanimity... Further conditions helpful for the emergence of the Equanimity Link to Awakening are: 1: Impartiality regarding all living & sentient beings... 2: Indifference regarding all inanimate constructions... 3: Avoiding biased people who prefer favouritism & one-sided partiality... 4: Friendship with well ballanced people unmoved by both pleasure & pain... 5: Commitment to ballance the mind into even & imperturbable Equanimity! There is Equanimity towards living beings and there is Equanimity regarding material things! There is Equanimity towards internal states & there is Equanimity regarding external states! There is Equanimity towards all past, present, and future times, events, and phenomena! There is Equanimity towards all mentality and there is Equanimity regarding all materiality! Sources (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 65-6+102-8] 46: Links. 2+51: Group & Nutriments.... ----------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. #61973 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Howard and Ken O, > > ---------- > > All of us at DSG describe anatta as the absence of self. You, > however, insist on adding "absence of own being" or "absence of > self-existence." There must be some reason for this, and it is > possibly a deep-seated difference in our understandings. > > Ken H > Hallo Ken H Just want to say that i don't belong to the "All of us at DSG" Perhaps that "All of us" don't excist? But you describe both positions to abstract, to philosophic; and the Teaching of the Buddha is not philospohy but soteriology: to awaken. Isn't it better to say that atta-belief is the illusion that there is a self, and that the anatta-idea is to be free of that illusion? And then the difference between 'self', 'own being' or 'self- existence' is not so big. Thus that this discussion is rather scholastic? Metta Joop #61974 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) philofillet Hi James (and Math) and all > First, you sure are posting a lot lately! Your wife is going to > spank your bottom! ;-)) Don't use the future tense. Use the present perfect continous. :) I've settled on yet another strategy for participating at DSG in a wholesome way. Instead of spouting off my own ignorant views, I'm going to stick to transcribing for the next little while. Sorry, all, that I've been so obnoxious. It'll work itself out. If we stay open to the Buddha's teaching, wholesome dhammas are developed. I'm confident about that. There is no need to try to fix bad moods or bad behaviour by doing silly things such as intentionally feeling "metta" for this person or that. > > Second, just because it may seem that a sutta is addressed only to > ariyans, No it describes what the ariyans attain - if it were addressed to them, that would be different. I'm not talking about all suttas - just referring to "Burning" which is so important for me. I only know a small body of suttas in SN 35 and SN 22. Listen, dinner party, so gotta run. I know you have written well- written, well thought out comments that the group will benefit from. You must be off to Taiwan any day now! Best of luck to you, my friend. Thanks also, Math for your comments. Well thought-out as always and beneficial for all I'm sure. Phil #61975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Born with pa~n~na. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-jul-2006, om 5:43 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: Thanks for the commentary. quotes N: "When feeling sad there is dosa, but we may also cling to sadness, at a different moment." -------- S: This is instructive. Where are emotions placed within Abhidhamma? I know there is pleasant, painful, and indifferent in terms of quality. ------- N: These are feelings accompanying citta. The conventional term emotion is not quite the same as feeling. ------------ S: The range of emotions as defined within the Dhamma seems less than conventionally considered. That is more are collapsed categorically into few. Sadness is included in dosa, which I think is anger or ill-will. --------- N: the cetasika dosa, which is one of the roots, hetus, has many shades. It can be fear, a slight misgiving, vengeance, etc. In all these instances the citta with dosa dislikes the object. Whereas lobha like the object, and there are also many shades of lobha. We find in the Dhammasangani a long list of synonimes, almost hundred. One of these is hoping. When we have expectations there is lobha. Kh Sujin often reminds us: do not expect anything, meaning also from others. --------- S: This is almost counterintuitive from a conventional point of view. Interestingly enough, the psychoanalytic view on the psychodynamics of depression (a form of prolonged "sadness") is that it is the subjective experience of anger "turned inward" --------- N: But something is lacking as you know: it is a cetasika, not self. ---------- S quotes: N: "Considering in the right way is done with pa~n~naa, but since cittas change so very fast, there can even be clinging to that. Kh Sujin would say: it is still you, and this could feel like a cold shower." Its unlikely, given my experience as described, that there was actually pa~n~na arising. There was a lot of thinking, as I describe it, which is really "story-telling" as Kh. Sujin would say. True Dhamma often feels like such a downer and usually sobers a guy up quick (metaphorically speaking). ----------- N: While thinking in the right way, even about stories, there can still be intellectual understanding. This understanding which is a degree of pa~n~naa can develop into direct understanding. Even your words, that the Dhamma usually sobers a guy up quick, is that not right understanding? ------------- S: I see that I still cling to a need to have some confirmatory experience, which, I guess, I can then cling to anew. Again, I was just thinking for most of the described event. -------- N: Again, some moments of thinking with pa~n~naa, and this is being accumulated. It can grow. ---------- S quotes: N: "When there is kusala citta there is purity of mind, no clinging, there is detachment. But it is so ephemeral. Phil would say: beware of lobha. It plays tricks, comes in disguise of kusala, it seems so calm." There may have been an instant of this at the moment the sadness/dosa switched to what I called "joy" or something. This was too fast to catch but the sign, if that can be said, was the change and the thinking about - was it? ------ N: You realized things you did not realize before, and this was due to previous studying and considering that was accumulated. --------- S Quotes:N: "We can be more sure about all this after the first stage of vipassana, knowing the difference between nama and rupa, and this is already difficult enough for us." This I'm still working to understand conceptually so experiential understanding is likely aeons away. ________ N: Do not think it is aeons away, who knows? Ken H and others would say, there is only this moment now, and understanding this, even intellectually is the way for pa~n~naa to grow. We should not despise understanding of the level of thinking. Nina. #61976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH nilovg Hi Howard, I do not want to prolong this discussion, Howard, I do not want to wear you out, taking into consideration your age :-)). Just pulling your leg. But in earnest, this was what I asked Kh Sujin about: taking something outside for self. She explained: you do not see them as having the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa. I agree that attaa, self, has a wider meaning than as it is used in conventional language, taking something for self. Without a core, we think of the plaintain tree, or the empty fist, or someone who is looking for the pith of a tree but cannot find it. Nina. Op 29-jul-2006, om 3:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Ken we are now in the "repetition stage", which is the point at > > which I bow out. Lacking self or own being is what I mean by > > 'insubstantial', and I do not deny distinguishablily of phenomena. > . I > don't know what you think 'self' means, but it is not identical with > 'person'. If that were what it is, why would anyone be surprised > that hardness is not > self, that visual objects are not self, that sounds are not self! > Did you ever > think that hardness was "you" or visual objects or or sounds? What > do you > think an alleged "soul" is supposed to be if not a self-existent > core of being > within and as basis for the emperical person? > -------- #61977 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:45 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 499- Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa(j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== There is yet another aspect of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga and this is the sixfold equanimity which is actually the equanimity which has reached completion at the attainment of arahatship. We read in the Visuddhimagga (IV, 157): * "Herein, six-factored equanimity is a name for the equanimity in one whose cankers are destroyed. It is the mode of non-abandonment of the natural state of purity when desirable or undesirable objects of the six kinds come into focus in the six doors described thus: “Here a bhikkhu whose cankers are destroyed is neither glad nor sad on seeing a visible object with the eye: he dwells in equanimity, mindful and fully aware.” (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Chapter I, § 1)." * The arahat has a perfect balance of mind. He is unruffled by the worldly conditions of gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, well-being and misery. To us the sixfold equanimity of the arahat seems to be far off. We should remember that this equanimity can only be achieved by understanding, paññå, which has been developed stage by stage. It is useless to have wishful thinking about this perfect equanimity. It cannot be realized by longing for it. The fact that this equanimity is sixfold can remind us that only when understanding of what appears through the six doors has been developed there can be equanimity towards all objects. ***** Equanimity/Tatramajjhatataa to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #61978 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:23 am Subject: Re: kaya-passaddhi bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Sarah: Ill return to the subject whenever finding this 'relaxed under a tree sutta'. Bhikkhu Samahita #61979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) nilovg Hi James and Phil, I agree. James, I really appreciated your sutta quote (just like the olden days!) and your personal comments. I wish I could be present in Hongkong, but I get scared of the idea of exorcism. You do this with metta, I guess? Nina. Op 29-jul-2006, om 11:32 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I know you have written well- > written, well thought out comments that the group will benefit from. #61980 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Born with pa~n~na. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, A few more questions. N: "These are feelings accompanying citta. The conventional term emotion is not quite the same as feeling." Vedanaa is also rendered as "sensation" which seems to broaden the category, or, in other words, is this the sense in which "feeling" is meant? If so, this is not like the conventional "emotion" as you say. N: "The cetasika dosa, which is one of the roots, hetus, has many shades. It can be fear, a slight misgiving, vengeance, etc. In all these instances the citta with dosa dislikes the object. Whereas lobha like the object, and there are also many shades of lobha. We find in the Dhammasangani a long list of synonimes, almost hundred. One of these is hoping. When we have expectations there is lobha. Kh Sujin often reminds us: do not expect anything, meaning also from others." What determines "shade" of dosa? I would guess the object conditions it in part, or rather in total. Soon I will have a copy of Dhammasangani and I think this enumeration will help to learn what goes where. N: "But something is lacking as you know: it is a cetasika, not self." Yes. That is where conventional views, no matter how well-conceived, fail. Psychoanalytic theory is totally saturated with self. The Abhidhamma "system" accounts for mental dynamics, shall I say, while teaching anatta. N: "While thinking in the right way, even about stories, there can still be intellectual understanding. This understanding which is a degree of pa~n~naa can develop into direct understanding. Even your words, that the Dhamma usually sobers a guy up quick, is that not right understanding?" I suppose. I've been discussing this idea of "degree of pa~n~naa" with Jon. I wonder if "degree of pa~n~naa" is also related to hetu. Is "many shades," which you used in relation to dosa, synonymous with "degree of pa~n~naa?" I try to be careful when it comes to accepting what I think I know. N: "Again, some moments of thinking with pa~n~naa, and this is being accumulated. It can grow." As you said above, in a way, referring to the development of pa~n~naa, but "develop" and "accumulate" are not the same are they? But are they related? Perhaps reciprocally? N: "You realized things you did not realize before, and this was due to previous studying and considering that was accumulated." To be more specific, I had thought these things in various ways before but this time the thoughts arose and were accompanied by a shift in the "feeling" from dosa to, I would say some shade of "piiti," although of this latter I'm not sure. Its one thing to read of something called piiti, and another to know this experientially. N: "Do not think it is aeons away, who knows? Ken H and others would say, there is only this moment now, and understanding this, even intellectually is the way for pa~n~naa to grow. We should not despise understanding of the level of thinking." Okay. I like that, being a thinker. With loving kindness, Scott. #61981 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:08 am Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) matheesha333 Hi Phil, If > we stay open to the Buddha's teaching, wholesome dhammas are > developed. I'm confident about that. There is no need to try to fix > bad moods or bad behaviour by doing silly things such as > intentionally feeling "metta" for this person or that. > M: Well that might be too difficult. How about this: AN 5.162 Aghatavinaya Sutta Subduing Hatred (2) Then Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friend monks." "Yes, friend," the monks responded to him. Ven. Sariputta said: "There are these five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely. Which five? "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior but pure in their verbal behavior. Hatred for a person of this sort should be subdued. "There is the case where some people are impure in their verbal behavior but pure in their bodily behavior. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but who periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "There is the case where some people are impure in their bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who do not periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "There is the case where some people are pure in their bodily behavior & their verbal behavior, and who periodically experience mental clarity & calm. Hatred for a person of this sort should also be subdued. "Now as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when a monk who makes use of things that are thrown away sees a rag in the road: Taking hold of it with his left foot and spreading it out with his right, he would tear off the sound part and go off with it. In the same way, when the individual is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his bodily behavior, and instead pay attention to the purity of his verbal behavior. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is impure in his verbal behavior, but pure in his bodily behavior, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a pool overgrown with slime & water plants, and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. He would jump into the pool, part the slime & water plants with both hands, and then, cupping his hands, drink the water and go on his way. In the same way, when the individual is impure in his verbal behavior but pure in his bodily behavior, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his verbal behavior, and instead pay attention to the purity of his bodily behavior. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but who periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a little puddle in a cow's footprint, and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this little puddle in a cow's footprint. If I tried to drink the water using my hand or cup, I would disturb it, stir it up, & make it unfit to drink. What if I were to get down on all fours and slurp it up like a cow, and then go on my way?' So he would get down on all fours, slurp up the water like a cow, and then go on his way. In the same way, when an individual is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his bodily behavior...the impurity of his verbal behavior, and instead pay attention to the fact that he periodically experiences mental clarity & calm. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a sick man — in pain, seriously ill — traveling along a road, far from the next village & far from the last, unable to get the food he needs, unable to get the medicine he needs, unable to get a suitable assistant, unable to get anyone to take him to human habitation. Now suppose another person were to see him coming along the road. He would do what he could out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for the man, thinking, 'O that this man should get the food he needs, the medicine he needs, a suitable assistant, someone to take him to human habitation. Why is that? So that he won't fall into ruin right here.' In the same way, when a person is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, one should do what one can out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for him, thinking, 'O that this man should abandon wrong bodily conduct and develop right bodily conduct, abandon wrong verbal conduct and develop right verbal conduct, abandon wrong mental conduct and develop right mental conduct. Why is that? So that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he won't fall into the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, purgatory.' Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. "And as for a person who is pure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a pool of clear water — sweet, cool, & limpid, with gently sloping banks, & shaded on all sides by trees of many kinds — and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. Having plunged into the pool, having bathed & drunk & come back out, he would sit down or lie down right there in the shade of the trees. In the same way, when an individual is pure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, one should at that time pay attention to the purity of his bodily behavior...the purity of his verbal behavior, and to the fact that he periodically experiences mental clarity & calm. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. An entirely inspiring individual can make the mind grow serene. "These are five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: AN 5.161. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.162.than.html #61982 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas According to Karunadasa/KenH upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/29/06 6:44:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I do not want to prolong this discussion, Howard, I do not want to > wear you out, taking into consideration your age :-)). Just pulling > your leg. --------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! I thank you for your consideration! ;-)) -------------------------------- > But in earnest, this was what I asked Kh Sujin about: taking > something outside for self. She explained: you do not see them as > having the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa. > I agree that attaa, self, has a wider meaning than as it is used in > conventional language, taking something for self. > Without a core, we think of the plaintain tree, or the empty fist, or > someone who is looking for the pith of a tree but cannot find it. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed! Definitely not nothing-at-all, but lacking core/pith. ----------------------------------- > Nina. > ================== With metta, Howard #61983 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:51 am Subject: Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, all - The Phena Sutta is clear in its portrayal of every phenomenon in every khandha as empty and insubstantial. It is not just an impersonality that is asserted, but an unequivocal insubstantiality/corelessness. The following, taken from the closing lines of the sutta, sums the matter up: ______________________ Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; // Hollow within (Howard's comment) // consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. ------------------------------------------ I say no more in this regard of the emptiness of conditioned dhammas than what the Buddha, himself, says in this sutta and also in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, where he teaches the middle-way status of dhammas based on conditionality, as follows: _______________________ 'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. ----------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard P.S. The foregoing is entirely Tipitaka-based, drawing not at all from Mahayana. #61984 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James and Phil, > I agree. James, I really appreciated your sutta quote (just like the > olden days!) and your personal comments. Thanks. > I wish I could be present in Hongkong, but I get scared of the idea > of exorcism. You do this with metta, I guess? ;-)) This was just a joke. No reason to be afraid. Maybe I will meet you one day also- it's up to kamma. > Nina. Metta, James #61985 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:09 am Subject: Re: causality behaviour lbidd2 Hi Matheesha, I would say that consciousnesses that depend on physical sensitivity are subject to distortion, misrepresentation, and misunderstanding due to flaws and limitations in that physical apparatus. I don't think abhidhamma or sutta addresses this issue but they would say physical sensitivity is kamma produced and, presumably, any medical intervention is also kamma produced. The effect of rupa on nama ties into the tranquility thread, but I haven't been following that so I don't know what the conclusion is. I think I read somewhere that simply assuming the meditation posture has a salutary effect, and my own experience confirms that. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I wonder if anyone could explain what is happening below in terms of > causality. Also contrasting that with what is considered normal? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > The syndromes of "imitation behaviour," "utilisation behaviour," > and "environmental dependency" were described by Lhermitte and > colleagues in a series of presentations, video demonstrations, and > publications in the 1980s.1-5 Since then, these striking clinical > phenomena have been abundantly detailed.6-12 > > The term "utilisation behaviour" is applied to a peculiar pattern of > actions, linked to frontal lobe dysfunction, in which patients > display an exaggerated dependency on the environment for behavioural > cues. When an object is placed before them they tend to act on that > object (for example, use a hammer, pour water from a pitcher, write > on a piece of paper), even when told not to, and even when they > admit that they were told not to. > > The term "imitation behaviour" refers to a condition in which > patients imitate the gestures and behaviour of an examiner, even > when asked not to. Imitation behaviour is considered to be a milder > version of utilisation behaviour, and both are part of the more > comprehensive environmental dependency syndrome. > > http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/68/2/224 > > > ------------------------------------- > > with metta > > Matheesha > #61986 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:22 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 37 nilovg Dear friends, Since lobha is rooted so deeply, it can only be eradicated in different stages. di.t.thi has to be eradicated first. The sotåpanna, the person who has realized the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated di.t.thi. He has developed the wisdom which realizes that all phenomena are nåma and rúpa, not self. Since he has eradicated di.t.thi, the lobha-múla-cittas with di.t.thi do not arise anymore. As we have seen, four types of lobha-múla-citta arise with di.t.thi (they are di.t.thigata-sampayutta), and four types arise without di.t.thi (they are di.t.thigatha-vippayutta). As for the sotåpanna, the four types of lobha-múla-citta without di.t.thi still arise; he has not yet eradicated all kinds of attachment. The sotåpanna still has conceit. Conceit can arise with the four types of lobha-múla-citta which are without di.t.thi (di.t.thigata- vippayutta). There may be conceit when one compares oneself with others, when one, for example, thinks that one has more wisdom than others. When we consider ourselves better, equal or less in comparison with others we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. When we think ourselves less than someone else it is not necessarily kusala; there may still be a kind of upholding of ourselves and then there is conceit. Conceit is rooted so deeply that it is eradicated only when one has become an arahat. The person who has attained the second stage of enlightenment, the sakadågåmí (once-returner), has less lobha than the sotåpanna. The person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment, the anågåmí (never-returner), has no more clinging to the objects which present themselves through the five senses, but he still has conceit and he clings to rebirth. The arahat, the perfected one who has attained the fourth and last stage of enlightenment, has eradicated all forms of lobha completely. The arahat is completely free since he has eradicated all defilements. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Third Fifty, chapter IV, §136, Not including), that the Buddha said to the monks, while he was staying among the Sakkas at Devadaha: Devas and mankind, monks, delight in objects, they are excited by objects. It is owing to the instability, the coming to an end, the ceasing of objects, monks, that devas and mankind live woefully. They delight in sounds, scents, savours, in touch, they delight in mindstates, and are excited by them. It is owing to the instability, the coming to an end, the ceasing of mindstates, monks, that devas and mankind live woefully. But the Tathågata, monks, who is arahat, a Fully-enlightened One, seeing, as they really are, both the arising and the destruction, the satisfaction, the misery and the way of escape from objects,--he delights not in objects, takes not pleasure in them, is not excited by them. It is owing to the instability, the coming to an end, the ceasing of objects that the Tathågata dwells at ease... The Buddha and all those who are arahats have eradicated clinging to all objects which are experienced. They have penetrated the true nature of conditioned realities which arise and fall away, which are impermanent. The arahat will attain the end of rebirth, the cessation of the arising of conditioned realities and therefore, he is ``dwelling at ease''. ***** Nina. #61987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:21 am Subject: Letters 18 nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of the letters to Susan Elbaum Jootla, Part 2) After this rather long introduction I could now come to your remarks about insight which you ask me for my comments. This is a topic which often comes up in correspondence with different people. Since I sent my letters also to others who are interested I will quote from your letter: QUOTE Susan Elbaum Jootla: We have been practising mindfulness of feelings, in the tradition of U Ba Khin of Rangoon. The technique of meditation which we practise enables one to feel the changing kalapas of the body (groups of rupa). With this direct understanding and experience of anicca (impermanence) it is also possible for a meditator to appreciate with greater and greater conviction the dukkha and anatta nature of existence. I suppose that one could start mindfulness by observing any of the five khandhas and, as the mind becomes more concentrated, one would feel anicca in the body apart from merely intellectual understanding that the body is utterly impermanent. With sufficient concentration this would have to happen because that is what the nature of the body (of kaya) is. But if one did not feel the anicca processes happening in mind and body, I wonder if it would be possible to remove kilesas (defilements) from the anusaya level (the level of latent tendencies). Would you like to comment on this? Mindfulness, sati, must ultimately lead to total detachment from the five khandhas and from the world. If it does not not do this then it is not showing the four noble truths. (end quote) I would like first to consider kalapas more. In how far can they be experienced. The practice has to be in accordance with the Abhidhamma which is the Buddha's teaching. Just this summer I discussed with Khun Sujin, while we were walking in the park in Vienna, kalapas, groups of rupas. I said that I consider it a little miracle that visible object or color , arises together with the inseparable rupas of solidity, fluidity, temperature and motion, and with odour, flavour and nutritive essence in one group, kalapa, of the eight inseparable rupas, and that, when seeing arises, it takes as object just colour, only that one tiny rupa out of the group of eight. The conditions are right for seeing when color impinges on eyesense, which is also a rupa arising in a group of rupas. Seeing cannot experience the other rupas in the group, it can only experience color. It is the same with hearing and sound. Sound arises in a group of rupas, but hearing can only experience one rupa of that group: sound, when it impinges on the earsense. It is all according to conditions, and knowing this helps us to cling less to a self who could control seeing or hearing. What can be experienced by body-conciousness through the body-sense? Solidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion appearing as oscillation or pressure. These are characteristics of rupa which can appear, but only one at a time. Not a whole group could be experienced at the same time, because each citta experiences only one object at a time. Heat may appear, but then hardness does not appear at the same time, even though it is in the group together with the heat. ***** Nina. #61988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your remarks, and I have more on: without a core, in the same sutta, the Visuddhimagga (Ch XIV, 224) quotes and the tiika elaborates on. You drew my attention towards it again: < Text Vis.: In detail [that is, individually] matter should be regarded as a lump of froth because it will not stand squeezing, feeling as a bubble on water because it can only be enjoyed for an instant, perception as a mirage because it causes illusion, formations as a plantain trunk because it has no core, and consciousness as a conjuring trick because it deceives (S.iii,140-42). ------- N: The Tiika elaborates on these similes, and the text is partly similar to the ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (p. 36-38). Ruupa is just like a lump of froth without any substance and it cannot be grasped, since it breaks up immediately. Ruupa is like wood surrounding the pith of a tree, without core or substance, it is weak, and it should not be taken as “I” or “mine”. Ruupa continually breaks up from the first stage of a foetus on, until it finally breaks up at death. The Dispeller adds: Feeling is like a bubble of water. Just as a bubble of water is unsubstantial, is ungraspable, and does not last long, so is feeling. Just as a bubble arises due to four causes: the water surface, the drop of water, wetness of the water and the air which holds it up by drawing it together as an envelope, just so feeling also arises due to four causes: the physical base, the object, the flame of defilements and the impact of contact (phassa). The Tiika states that here feeling is meant that is connected with the cycle (va.t.ta), while the rootcause are the defilements that are not eradicated and the object is food for it. Feeling can only be enjoyed for a short while. Sa~n~naa is like a mirage, since it is unsubstantial and cannot be grasped. One cannot grasp it, drink it, wash in it, bathe in it or fill a pot with it. A mirage quivers and deceives many people. The Dispeller of Delusion adds that it makes people say that they saw a full lake or a full river. Saññaa deceives the world by being a cause of wrong view, of seeing things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. The khandha of formations is like a plantain stem since it is unsubstantial and cannot be grasped. Just as a plantain stem is a combination of many sheets and is without core, evenso the khandha of formations which is a combination of many dhammas, the cetasikas, it is without core, and cannot be grasped. It cannot be taken as permanent, etc. By combining the characteristic of contact and other characteristics of volition and so on, it is called the khandha of formations. N: The Dispeller adds: ‘And just as a plantain stem has many characteristics, for one has the appearance of an outer sheath of leaf, but there is another within and another within that, so indeed the formations aggregate...’ The plantain tree has no pith, no core. Evenso the khandha of formations that is a combination of many cetasikas, has no core. The khandha of consciousness, viññaa.na, is like an illusion (maya). It is without substance or core, and it cannot be grasped. Just as an illusion is changeable and appears swiftly, so is citta. The Dispeller adds that citta is more changeable and appears more briefly. Just as an illusion deceives many people and causes them to see as a jewel what is not a jewel, evenso citta that is without a core and swift to change deceives people and makes them think that there is one lasting citta at the time of coming, going, standing and sitting. However, there is another citta during each of these postures. Thus citta is like an illusion. > ***** Nina. -------- Op 29-jul-2006, om 17:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Form is like a glob of foam; > feeling, a bubble; > perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; // Hollow within (Howard's comment) // > consciousness, a magic trick — #61989 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas TGrand458@... Hi Howard and Nina I found Howard's original post true to the spirit of the Suttas. Nina's posting of commentaries were true to the spirit of those commentaries ... that inject preconceived notions into the Suttas. I.E., they presuppose an Abhidhamma framework and therefore, of course, interpret the Suttas in an Abhidhamma manner. Therefore, I found them to present a slanted and distorted view. TG In a message dated 7/29/2006 12:36:37 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thank you for your remarks, and I have more on: without a core, in the same sutta, the Visuddhimagga (Ch XIV, 224) quotes and the tiika elaborates on. You drew my attention towards it again: < Text Vis.: In detail [that is, individually] matter should be regarded as a lump of froth because it will not stand squeezing, feeling as a bubble on water because it can only be enjoyed for an instant, perception as a mirage because it causes illusion, formations as a plantain trunk because it has no core, and consciousness as a conjuring trick because it deceives (S.iii,140-42). ------- N: The Tiika elaborates on these similes, and the text is partly similar to the ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (p. 36-38). Ruupa is just like a lump of froth without any substance and it cannot be grasped, since it breaks up immediately. Ruupa is like wood surrounding the pith of a tree, without core or substance, it is weak, and it should not be taken as “Iâ€? or “mineâ€?. Ruupa continually breaks up from the first stage of a foetus on, until it finally breaks up at death. The Dispeller adds: Feeling is like a bubble of water. Just as a bubble of water is unsubstantial, is ungraspable, and does not last long, so is feeling. Just as a bubble arises due to four causes: the water surface, the drop of water, wetness of the water and the air which holds it up by drawing it together as an envelope, just so feeling also arises due to four causes: the physical base, the object, the flame of defilements and the impact of contact (phassa). The Tiika states that here feeling is meant that is connected with the cycle (va.t.ta), while the rootcause are the defilements that are not eradicated and the object is food for it. Feeling can only be enjoyed for a short while. Sa~n~naa is like a mirage, since it is unsubstantial and cannot be grasped. One cannot grasp it, drink it, wash in it, bathe in it or fill a pot with it. A mirage quivers and deceives many people. The Dispeller of Delusion adds that it makes people say that they saw a full lake or a full river. Saññaa deceives the world by being a cause of wrong view, of seeing things as beautiful, happiness, permanent and self. The khandha of formations is like a plantain stem since it is unsubstantial and cannot be grasped. Just as a plantain stem is a combination of many sheets and is without core, evenso the khandha of formations which is a combination of many dhammas, the cetasikas, it is without core, and cannot be grasped. It cannot be taken as permanent, etc. By combining the characteristic of contact and other characteristics of volition and so on, it is called the khandha of formations. N: The Dispeller adds: ‘And just as a plantain stem has many characteristics, for one has the appearance of an outer sheath of leaf, but there is another within and another within that, so indeed the formations aggregate...’ The plantain tree has no pith, no core. Evenso the khandha of formations that is a combination of many cetasikas, has no core. The khandha of consciousness, viññaa.na, is like an illusion (maya). It is without substance or core, and it cannot be grasped. Just as an illusion is changeable and appears swiftly, so is citta. The Dispeller adds that citta is more changeable and appears more briefly. Just as an illusion deceives many people and causes them to see as a jewel what is not a jewel, evenso citta that is without a core and swift to change deceives people and makes them think that there is one lasting citta at the time of coming, going, standing and sitting. However, there is another citta during each of these postures. Thus citta is like an illusion. > ***** Nina. #61990 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/29/06 2:36:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > thank you for your remarks, and I have more on: without a core, in > the same sutta, the Visuddhimagga (Ch XIV, 224) quotes and the tiika > elaborates on. You drew my attention towards it again: > < {cut, see 61988} This is excellent, Nina, wonderful - all of it! Emptiness and insubstantiality found right in the heart of Theravada! One of the parts I most particularly liked was "Just as a bubble arises due to four causes: the water surface, the drop of water, wetness of the w ater and the air which holds it up by drawing it together as an envelope, just so feeling also arises due to four causes: the physical base, the object, the flame of defilements and the impact of contact (phassa)." Here we see feeling likened to a bubble (in its emptiness) due to its conditional, dependent nature. :-) With metta, Howard #61991 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:21 pm Subject: Thanks Matheesha:-) sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha & all, Thank you so much for including your nice, friendly pic in the member album! Now you can relax and help us nag the other shy members like Joop, to give one example:-). Metta, Sarah ===================== #61992 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 7/29/06 5:08:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard and Nina > > I found Howard's original post true to the spirit of the Suttas. > > Nina's posting of commentaries were true to the spirit of those > commentaries > ... that inject preconceived notions into the Suttas. I.E., they > presuppose > an Abhidhamma framework and therefore, of course, interpret the Suttas in > an > Abhidhamma manner. Therefore, I found them to present a slanted and > distorted view. > > TG > ======================== I'm pleased that you my post. I am curious, though, as to what parts of the commentarial remarks you think are slanted and distorted. I prefer the sutta themselves to the commentarial analysis, but I'm not sure where you see a problem with the specific comments related by Nina. Would you care to expound and expand on that? With metta, Howard #61993 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) philofillet Hi Math >There is no need to try to > fix > > bad moods or bad behaviour by doing silly things such as > > intentionally feeling "metta" for this person or that. > > > > M: Well that might be too difficult. Yes, I should point out that of course I know the Buddha did teach the metta sutta, but we should remember that it describes "one who is skilled in goodness" or something like that. It is a meditative attainment, not something that we just do because we want to feel better about being an unnkind person or dealing with unkind persons or something. That is all about attachment, escaping from dosa. (I like the sutta passage I reflected on today - "the unistructed worldling knows no escape from painful feeling except sensual pleasure " - my paraphrase from SN 36:7, I think. (The dart) Often intentional "metta" meditation in the modern sense is a form of excaping painful feeling through sensual pleasure, I suspect. So, yes, you're absolutely right. True metta meditation *is* too difficult. Not just a matter of thinking about sending loving kindness here and there. Thanks for the sutta passage. Hopefully I will reflect on it! :) Phil #61994 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:57 pm Subject: Re: Thanks Matheesha:-) matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > Thank you so much for including your nice, friendly pic in the member > album! Now you can relax and help us nag the other shy members like Joop, > to give one example:-). Heavens! This is getting to be ridiculous! ;-) with metta, Matheesha #61995 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/29/2006 4:57:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I'm pleased that you my post. I am curious, though, as to what parts of the commentarial remarks you think are slanted and distorted. I prefer the sutta themselves to the commentarial analysis, but I'm not sure where you see a problem with the specific comments related by Nina. Would you care to expound and expand on that? With metta, Howard Hi Howard. There's a subtle holding to substance in the commentaries IMO. Some of the individual analysis seems ok...but when taken together, I think they "pat the Suttas on the back" while projecting their own sense of substance and trying to say that "this is what the suttas mean." Am I paranoid? LOL I don't think so. TG #61996 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:11 pm Subject: Re: sandhi nichiconn Dear Nina, We admire BB's Net, but O, Epithets! there are those closed fists on the conveyances: right from the very introduction: <> and the one that really gets me {parenthetically adding salt to the wound no less}: on # 10. vevacanahaara << (Since this mode merely gives synonyms for the words occurring in the text, it is here omitted.)>> I feel awe-full and thank you for all you've helped me to this sorry state, nowhere near wick's end, but pa.tisandhi waits. c. #61997 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:27 pm Subject: Re: Thanks Matheesha:-) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > > Thank you so much for including your nice, friendly pic in the member > > album! Now you can relax and help us nag the other shy members like > Joop, > > to give one example:-). > > Heavens! This is getting to be ridiculous! > > ;-) > > with metta, > > Matheesha > Hello Mateesha, Why 'ridiculous'? :-) Might I add my "nice to see you at last"? I'm busy elsewhere presently, but have been appreciating all your posts. Joop? and a few others too ... :-) metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #61998 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness of All Conditioned Dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 7/29/06 9:14:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard. > > There's a subtle holding to substance in the commentaries IMO. Some of the > > individual analysis seems ok...but when taken together, I think they "pat > the > Suttas on the back" while projecting their own sense of substance and > trying > to say that "this is what the suttas mean." > > Am I paranoid? LOL I don't think so. > > TG > ====================== I do agree that there is a subtle sense of substantialism to be found in some of the commentaries, and I find an odd, hard-to-put-my-finger-on unsatisfactoriness there at times, but the particular comments Nina related were pretty good, I'd say. With metta, Howard #61999 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:52 pm Subject: Re: Thanks Matheesha:-) jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, Math, Christine Regularly I look in 'Useful Posts' to check if some of my better messages are already inserted in it. And I think some deserve that place. In vain. UP is more a nibbana than a walhalla Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Matheesha & all, > > Thank you so much for including your nice, friendly pic in the member > album! Now you can relax and help us nag the other shy members like Joop, > to give one example:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===================== >