#62400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher nilovg Dear Scott, We ought to give respect to a bhikkhu, but that does not mean that we should not verify ourselves what he is teaching. I am inclined to think more of the Dhamma and not so much of the person of a teacher. And even the relation of teacher/pupil: who is learning from whom? When we only consider the Dhamma could we not say that we learn from discussions, from questions and remarks which make one consider the truth more? No need to think of teacher and pupil. To view matters from the ultimate point of view, not thinking of persons, can help one in one's relationships with others. Being teacher, being pupil, can we not see this from the point of view of cittas that arise and fall away for a moment? What we see as a status can change from moment to moment, the next moment who is called a pupil may be a teacher. And this is true. Also in the Co. to the Satipatthana sutta we read about a novice who taught an elderly bhikkhu. Also, when we think about teacher/pupil, there can be conceit very easily. Even when we think ourselves less than a teacher, be he bhikkhu or a layperson, there can be conceit. Thus, thinking of persons is not free from danger. Sarah pointed to posts about kalyana mitta, and this is a word more appropriate than teacher. A good friend in Dhamma. And in the final analysis the Dhamma is our refuge. In that way we become our own teacher. Nina. Op 11-aug-2006, om 14:38 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > That being said, I have met once with the person in question. I'll > stop here because I want a bit more direction. Given that the person > is a member of the bhikkhu sangha, is it respectful to come here with > questions about this - about how to evaluate (in this case) him - and > with some specific concerns? #62401 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:01 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 94, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 94. Association-condition, sampayutta-paccaya. Intro: This condition only pertains to nåma, to citta and its accompanying cetasikas. Citta and cetasikas condition one another by way of association-condition, but they each perform their own function. Seeing-consciousness cognizes visible object, it is the "chief'' in knowing the object. Feeling experiences the "flavour''of the object, sa~n~naa marks or recognizes the object, and the other "universals'' perform their own functions. --------- Text Vis.:94. (19) Immaterial states that assist by the kind of association consisting in having the same physical basis, same object, same arising, same cessation, are 'association conditions', according as it is said: 'The four immaterial aggregates are a condition, as association condition, for each other' (P.tn.1,6). ------- N: The Tiika explains that the naamas to which this condition pertains give support to each other by way of association. They arise together as if they are of one nature (ekiibhaavuupagamena viya). It states that they possess all four characteristics of association summed up in the text of the Visuddhimagga, beginning with ‘having the same physical base’. This condition pertains only to naama, but one may erroneously think that it also could be said of ruupas which arise together that they condition one another by association-condition. The Tiika refutes this idea in explaining that all four characteristics of association mentioned in the text are indispensable. Ruupas that partake of one group (kalapa) of ruupas do not condition one another by way of association-condition. Each group of ruupas consists of at least eight ruupas, the inseparable ruupas (avinibhogaruupa). These are the four great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, and in addition: visible object, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. They arise and fall away together, and one of the four great elements in a group conditions the other great elements and also the other ruupas in that group by way of dependence-condition (nissaya-paccaya), as the Tiika states. In order to make clear that this is not association-condition, the Tiika emphasizes that the dhammas to which association-condition pertains have the same object. They are naamas experiencing the same object and this causes them to be closely associated. One may believe that dhammas that have one physical base, that experience the same object and also arise at the same time may have different moments of ceasing. The Tiika states that the naamas that condition one another by way of association also cease at the same time. The Tiika also emphasizes that associated dhammas must have the same physical base, there are not several physical bases for them. --------- Conclusion: The teaching of association-condition reminds us that nåma and rúpa are completely different from each other. Naama experiences an object, ruupa does not. The citta and associated cetasikas have to experience the same object. This condition manifests the close association between citta and cetasikas. Seeing, for example, arises together with the associated cetasikas at the same vatthu, the eyebase; seeing and the associated cetasikas experience visible object through the eye-door and then they fall away together. Although in the planes where there are five khandhas, nåma and rúpa, citta and cetasikas arise together with rúpa, they are not associated with rúpa in the same way as they are with each other. Feeling, for example, is nåma, it is closely associated with citta and the other cetasikas. When lobha-múla-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling enjoys a pleasant sound, the accompanying cetasikas share the same object, and they are all affected by the pleasant feeling, they are conditioned by it by way of association-condition. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of great diversity since each of them conditions the other nåma-dhammas by way of several conditions, including association-condition. Kusala citta which is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas is quite different from akusala citta which is accompanied by akusala cetasikas. Some cetasikas can accompany cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya, but they are of a different quality in each of these cases. The naamas that experience the same object, that arise at the same physical base and cease together are intimately associated. Whereas ruupas that arise and cease together in one group could not be as closely associated as naamas. It is at the first stage of insight-knowledge that the difference between the characteristics of naama and ruupa is directly understood. It is realized what naama is, completely different from ruupa, not blended with ruupa. Then also the meaning of association- condition will be clearer. ****** Nina. #62402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:36 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 50. nilovg Dear friends, We read that the Buddha said: The living of the Brahma-faring, Målu"nkyåputta, could not be said to depend on the view that the world is eternal. Nor could the living of the Brahma-faring, Målu"nkyåputta, be said to depend on the view that the world is not eternal. Whether there is the view that the world is eternal or whether there is the view that the world is not eternal, there is birth, there is ageing, there is dying, there are grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair, the destruction of which I lay down here and now... Wherefore, Målu"nkyåputta, understand as not explained what has not been explained by me, and understand as explained what has been explained by me. And what, Målu"nkyåputta, has not been explained by me? That the world is eternal... that the world is not eternal has not been explained by me... And why, Målu"nkyåputta, has this not been explained by me? It is because it is not connected with the goal, it is not fundamental to the Brahma-faring, and does not conduce to turning away from, nor to dispassion, stopping, calming, superknowledge, awakening, nor to nibbåna. Therefore it has not been explained by me, Målu"nkyåputta. And what has been explained by me, Målu"nkyåputta? ``This is dukkha'' has been explained by me, Målu"nkyåputta. ``This is the arising of dukkha'' has been explained by me. ``This is the stopping of dukkha'' has been explained by me. ``This is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha'' has been explained by me. And why, Målu"nkyåputta, has this been explained by me? It is because it is connected with the goal, it is fundamental to the Brahma-faring, and conduces to turning away from, to dispassion, stopping, calming, super-knowledge, awakening and nibbåna... Doubt cannot be cured by speculating about matters which do not lead to the goal; it can only be cured by being aware of the nåma and rúpa which present themselves now. Even when there is doubt, this can be realized as only a type of nåma which arises because of conditions and which is not self. Thus the reality of the present moment will be known more clearly. ****** Nina. #62403 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:36 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 31 nilovg Dear friends, We then read that for the 'ariyan disciple', who has attained enlightenment, the opposite is the case. He sees things as they really are and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions. Could we become an ariyan disciple as well? At this moment we are still 'unlearned, common, average folk'. We do not see things as they are, but we live with our dreams and fantasies. In order to see things as they are, we should know the difference between what is real and what is not real. We may wonder whether the Buddha's teaching is not a philosophical system which deals with abstractions. On the contrary, the Buddha's teaching helps us to know ourselves, to know our different moments of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness. He taught the way to eradicate attachment, aversion and ignorance. Our thinking about reality is conditioned by many ideas we acquired through our education and through the culture in which we are rooted. If we want to understand what the Buddha taught we should not hold on to our own ideas about reality and we should be open-minded to his teaching. Then we will notice that his teaching is completely different from our ideas about reality. ****** Nina. #62404 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'As Tears Go By'......(was:Born with pa~n~na.) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/11/06 6:31:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Dear Scott, > > --- Scott Duncan wrote: > > >Dear Sarah, > <..> > >As I go through a day I think I must constantly seek to avoid grief - > >grief in the momentary sense I suppose. I don't find that I dwell > >much on the future. I guess I've tamed my anxiety, which seems to > >arise along with living in an imaginary future. > .... > S: I know you're just speaking conventionally here, but really we can't > avoid grief, anxiety or other shades of dosa as long as they are being > conditioned by our attachments to sense objects. It may seem that we've > found a way to escape for a while, but sooner or later the conditions will > be there for such states to arise. Like all dhammas they are impermanent > however and they really are beyond anyone's control. > > So the path of understanding is a path of detachment - acceptance of what > is conditioned at this very moment, regardless of whether we're watching > hockey and laughing or lost in thoughts about the past. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you, Sarah, that grief and other unpleasant emotions cannot be avoided, at least not successfully except for occasional moments, so long as the conditions for such emotions are in place. Moreover, running away from unpleasant phenomena is a matter of slavery to aversion, and not facing - not being mindful of - what is unpleasant not only attempts to avoid the unpleasantness but *does* avoid "the cure". We need to face reality and be mindful of it in order to disengage. But of course there are times that the reality is too painful to bear. Perhaps much of the time it is that way. This is in part the value in cultivation of calm and equanimity. By creating a layer of relative peace, it becomes possible to look at what otherwise one would have to run from. ----------------------------------------------- > .... > >I see how I am > >constantly dwelling in the moment past. It is all thinking and, I > >guess, dreaming in the sense meant by K. Sujin. > ... > S: Yes, all this life and other lives, we're lost in our dream worlds. But > even when there is such dwelling and thinking, there can be awareness. > These are dhammas too. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: But one has already made progress when one is *aware* of dwelling in the past, of imagining, of wishing, and of dreaming - of engaging in papanca. It is when we are habitually *lost* in thought, unaware of what is going on, that we are really in trouble. --------------------------------------------- ======================== With metta, Howard #62405 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. ashkenn2k Hi Sarah I remember I quoted these material in the DSG in the past, I think these material could be relevant to this topic (hopefully of course :-)) > .... > S: Nibbana is the signless dhamma. Doesn't the 'contemplation of > the signless' refer to the understanding of the impermanence of all > conditioned dhammas which leads to the realization of the > 'signless' nature of nibbana? I meant to do some checking in texts on this, but no time. Visud para 73 <> Expositor pg 303 <> Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary (54) Once he is in this way free of the obstacles, he considers the three marks by means of succession of insights beginning with the knowledge of rise and fall and culminating in the knowledge of conformity; these nine insight knowledge are called 'purification of knowing and seeing the way.' (my note - see Visud chapter XXI for the detail explanation of the nine insight knowledge] (55) As he is so engaged, owing to the maturity of insight and signifying that absorption will now arise, mind-door adverting interrupts the existence-continuum, and is followed immediately by two or three characteristics beginning with impermanence, and called 'preparatory', 'access' and 'conformity'. (56) And when this has reach its peak, that same equanimity regarding formations along the conformity is called 'insight leading to emergence' {57) After that, with Nibbana as its object, the change of lineage consciousness occurs, overcoming the lineage of the ordinary person and arriving at the lineage of the noble ones. (64) Therefore if the insight leading to the emergence gains insight into [formations] as not self, the path to liberation is called 'emptiness' (65) If it gains into [formations] as impermanent, it is liberation called 'signless'; (66) and if it gains insight into [formations] as suffering, it is liberation called 'wishless'. So the path acquires three names by way of the arrival of insight and likewise the fruit [occurring] in the consciousness process of the path, by way of the arrival of the path. (67) However, in the case of those practicing insight in the manner stated in the [consciousness] process leading to the attainment of the fruit, although the respective fruit arise, it is termed 'the liberation of emptiness' and so on only by virtue of the arrival of insight [at that point]. But the three names apply equally to all [the path and fruits] in all circumstances by virtue of their object and their own properties. Cheers Ken O #62406 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:44 am Subject: mindfullness ashkenn2k Hi All Just like to share. I like to seek your forgiveness if I did not response to any of your questions in regard to this mail. Dispeller of Delusion <<1520. But why is understanding included in this division dealing with mindfullness? In order to indicate a strong state of mindfulness. For mindfulness arises both with and without understanding. When it arises with understanding it is strong; when it ariese without it, it is weak. this is why understanding is included to indicate a strong state.>> The Book of Analysis <<355. The four foundation of mindfulness -- herein a bhikkhu dwells contemplating body in the body internally...........contemplating in feelings.....in consciousness...in mental state 357. Contemplating means: Therein that is contemplation? that which is wisdom, understanding,... absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation. Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished. Therefore this is called contemplating>> Cheers Ken O #62407 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:53 am Subject: selusion ashkenn2k Hi All Just like to share. I like to seek your forgiveness if I did not response to any of your questions in regard to this mail. Dispeller of Delusion <<1544 .... Vivkekanissitam ("dependent on seclusion") = viveke nissitam. Seclusion is secludness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of opposites, through suppression, cutting off, tranquillisation and renunciation 1545. Herein seclusion though substitution of opposite is insight, seclusion through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion thought cutting of is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; seclusion through renunciations is nibbana, which has renounced all sights. Thus dependent on seclusion is dependent on this fivefold seclusion: he develops mindfulness awakening factor which is dependent on seclusion through substitution of opposites, dependent on seclusion through cutting off and dependent on seclusion through renunciation". This is the meaning to be understood.>> Cheers Ken O #62408 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:40 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma teacher matheesha333 Hi Scott, > I find, first of all, that, and this may be due to imprinting, I am > influenced by the quality and depth of discussion in this forum such > that it almost structures my expectations of a teacher - s/he ought to > be equally compentent. > M: I find, and it never ceased to amaze me, that there are good qualities in people, even in those that we least expect to find it in. Everyone can teach us something -at least in terms of being human and wholesome. Best not to be too attached in looking for the perfect teacher. Even if monks rained from the skies we would not find a teacher perfect enough to satisfy our desires and projections. How many are dissatisfied even with the Buddha? Take it easy. Learn what you can. Enjoy the companionship of a kalyanamitta. with metta Matheesha #62409 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi matheesha333 Hi Jon, > >>J: But is the idea of 'interchangeable' samadhi mentioned > >>or alluded to in the suttas? > >> > >>I would say rather the opposite: samadhi of samatha requires > >>samatha, while samadhi of vipassana requires vipassana. I re- post > >>the summary of AN IV, 41: > >> > >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > >>[snip of sutta text dealing with 4 kinds of samadhi-bhavana] > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > >>I don't see any need to assume either a separate development of > >>samadhi, or the idea of transference to samadhi from samatha to > >>vipassana. > >> > >> > > > >M: What is different in these 4 'types' of samadhi? > >-one is obviously the outcome > >-the other is the actual practice (vipassan/samatha) method used > > > >Why are these developments of samadhi and not simply developments in > >vipassana, samatha etc? > > > > A good question. You have suggested a possible answer (below). I can > think of at least one alternative possibility. As we know, the Buddha > taught his message in a variety of ways, so that it would appeal to > listeners of different capabilities and tendencies. Samadhi was > obviously a big thing at the time, and there were many, many people who > were highly skilled in it. Perhaps for some of those people, the > message of insight would be more acceptable when presented as an aspect > of samadhi. Somewhat like the way the Buddha adopted the vocabulary and > language of other traditions or groups but gave new meaning to that > vocab and language ( e.g., what a 'brahmin' truly is, 'fire' in the > context of life in samsara, a different way of 'paying respect to the 6 > directions', etc). > M: Well the difficulty with that idea for me would be is that (in the light of him differentiating those with and without samadhi, and that suggesting that in his definition samadhi is not universal factor) is if he 'used' samadhi simply as a device to make the teaching more palatable, he would have to be essentially untruthful and misleading (if he had a different meaning for samadhi and didnt reveal it) and we know he is not capable of that. There is no evidence that his idea of samadhi was any different from that of others unlike other examples (`brahmin', `arahath', `nibbana') you have mentioned. He was not averse to borrowing from other religions if it helped in reducing lobha, dosa, moha -a good example being Uposatha. I doubt there was any problem of keeping samadhi, citassaekaggata as it is. In other suttas he mentions that samadhi is required for panna, for jhana etc so it was not specific to this audience. I feel it would be a more reasonable explanation, that samadhi is citassaekaggata and is a useful factor for the development of all these 4 mentioned in the sutta. >M: >The reason is that they have a common > >element -that is samadhi - as a root and a base. Citassaekaggata is > >just that and nothing else. It is common to all these. How it is > >weilded will decide what it will give rise to. A bit like how dough > >can give rise to many different types of food depending on how it is > >weilded. > > > >J: The function of samadhi is just to concentrate. If there is any > wielding to be done, it would have to be panna that does it, I believe, > so again it comes down to the development of samatha or vipassana. (But > I don't think it is being suggested that samadhi is something to be > wielded.) > M: Cetana based on panna will lead to the act of concentrating, shall we say? Knowing what to do (samma ditti), leads to viriya, leads to intention, leads to action. The development of Samadhi in samatha leads to jhana (sati repeatedly on same object), and it's development in vipassana (sati on dhammas arising) leads to insight. So perhaps it is more accurate to say wielding of sati, than Samadhi in these two situations. Or to put it conventionally, we can focus our awareness on what we like (atleast for a short period of time). But when it comes to mastery of jhana, there is more direct `wielding' of samadhi. With one determination you can go from simply awareness of breath to a solid and intense Samadhi of a jhana. >J: As regards the Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta (MN 117, MLDB p.934), the > passage does not actually say that the factors are sequential. What it > says is just what you've quoted here, namely that "In one of factor A, > factor B comes into being". The commentarial interpretation is that the > factors referred to are coarisnig factors. This is in line with the > commentarial view of the NEP factors as being a set of co-arising factors. > M: I agree that this is the commentarial view. But if you look at the sutta it does not say it is coarising. In fact it say A gives rise to B. B gives rise to C. C gives rise to... and so on. I think it is reasonable that as being sequential. Besides how can 8 seperated factors coarise in the same citta? Each of those factors would surely need atleast one (likely more) citta to manifest. Samma ajiva, right livelihood (not selling weapons, poisons etc) is not an expression of one citta – it is label for many cittas together in succession. So this idea of coarising does not find me convinced. > Summarising the 10 factors given in the passage they are in order: > 1. Right View (panna of the NEP) > 2.-8. The other factors of the NEP, ending with Right Concentration > 9.-10. Two factors that are exclusive to the person who has attained > arahantship. > > So in the context of the development of insight *prior to* the > attainment of enlightenment, it comes down to just the 8 NEP factors, > starting with panna (ditthi) and ending with ekaggata (samadhi). > >M: >How can sati give rise to samma samadhi, often defined as jhana? How >M: >can samadhi give rise to panna? > > M: Good argument. But we know that the factors are cyclical. Sarah recently included the reference sutta by Howard on the matter into UPs. It is mentioned in other places that viriya leads to sati and sati leads to Samadhi and that leads to panna (the five faculties). There is then the development of Samadhi of putajjana, that of a sotapanna and that of an arahath. These are increasing levels of panna and Samadhi. The buddha says that panna is for the concentrated and not for the unconcentrated. This suggests that Samadhi of a lower level is the foundation for higher degrees of panna (now right view) leading to more Samadhi. The Buddha says the panna cannot arise without suppressing the hinderences (a reference to the development of Samadhi). The anupubbiya sikka –gradual training of sila, guarding the senses, devoted to wakefulness and moderation in eating etc leads to a certain degree of suppression of hinderences again before mindfulness practice. I agree it is not clearly stated as we would like, but this is the evidence, apart from hundreds we have trained in this manner in real life, that I can show you that samadhi is required for panna of a higher nature. (I agree that panna is required for samadhi as well) What evidence is there that it is only panna leading to Samadhi? That model would suggest that only one path –vipassana leading to samatha, is possible. But there are vipassana leading to samatha, samatha leading to vipassana, and both being developed together – suggesting the type of dynamic interaction of a cyclical model. > Well if you see the path factors as being sequential you will also need > to ask how samma-aajiiva (right livelihood) can give rise to > samma-vaayaama (right effort), or why right effort and right > concentration are apparently not necessary to give rise to panna (right > view). Is the sequential interpretation a safe inference to draw? > M: Logically Right livelihood does not seem to give rise to right effort. But that is an argument against co-arising as well. In the Mahacattasarika sutta the Buddha clearly say `right livelihood gives rise to right effort'. So while we may not understand how that works, it can't be dismissed outright. If we look at the co-arising model, it is not clear how panna can increase either. Sati only seems to give rise to Samadhi and not panna. In effect, saying that direct experiencing is not required for panna to arise. However if we take the sequential model with it's inherent cyclical nature, it can be explained. Panna eventually gives rise to samdhi, and that in turn gives rise to more panna in the manner of an upward spiral. Right view at a very rudimentary mundane level can be acquired just by being brought up in a household which `believes' in Buddhism. At a higher level there is theoretical knowledge. But to reach higher stages there has to be experiential insight. It is clear that right view and right effort are required to give rise to (more) panna. This panna then becomes right view (perhaps supramundane) and forms the basis for further panna until the right view of an arahath/asekha is attained. This works via the entire eightfold path and not outside it. > As mentioned before, the factors of ' right knowledge' and 'right > release' immediately following right concentration pertain to the cittas > of persons who have already attained arahantship. > > >But the Buddha says that jhana is essential only at the anagami > >stage. How are we to understand this then? What can be said about a > >sotapanna's panna level? The reasonable way to understand it is that > >there is development of both samatha and vipassana samadhi with > >satipatthana practice (it gives rise to both as mentioned in > >suttas), and that a level required for a sotapanna something like > >access concentration is adquate. > > > >It has to serve a purpose in development of direct experiencing, > >which is deeper levels of panna, more than theoretical > >understanding. > > > >J: Yes, the necessary samadhi is developed as satipatthana is developed. > That is about as much as we need to know, I think! > >M >If you focus on the present moment, even for a moment (!), there is > >focusing. There is some samadhi there. > > > > J:Ah yes, but you are assuming, I think, that 'focusing on the present > moment' means the citta will be kusala (presumably either samatha or > vipassana). I don't think that is a safe assumption. I'd be interested > to hear your thoughts on this point, as it's a very crucial one. M: Lets work our way backwards from the end result. A moment of insight, accompanied by Samadhi, all kusala. No problems there. How to get there? We cannot force panna to arise. It arises on it's own when the conditions are right. Sati and Samadhi are essential for it to arise through direct experiencing. Samadhi is difficult to wield and the only thing that we can change (conventionally speaking) is where and how we focus our awareness. Why would we want to focus? Is it kusala canda? Or is it craving for attainments? Or more likely, these might alternate rapidly. But by focusing something interesting happens. Sati gives rise to samadhi-(this is one of the basic tenants). It is focusing on the present moment, not an unwholesome object. So it is kusala. Samadhi also suppresses the hindrances when there is sufficient intensity, giving less chance of akusala from hindrences to arise. So if we look at what happened: [A=Akusala cittas K=kusala cittas] At first the mindstream would be like this: AAAKKAKKAAKAKAKAKKKKAAAAKKKKKKAAKKK When focusing begins and samadhi is suppressing hindrances it is like this: KKKKKAKKKKKKAAAKKKKKKKAKKKKKKKK The akusala would not be completely suppressed unless in a jhana. It is also not necessary to do so as the satipatthana talks of sati on craving, hindrances etc. When there is focusing on what is arising now, there is less time to go into papanca and give rise to thoughts of self/permanence etc. When there is ongoing focusing one would either not understand or understand anatta, but not encourage the concept of self. (It would be difficult to give rise to thoughts of self, especially if there is right view of the what the Buddha taught to begin with.) When there is focusing on what is arising now, finer and finer details will emerge. You will start seeing that dhammas arise one at a time. Patters of arising will be discerned. (this is more gross) Then patterns of passing away will be discerned. (this is more subtle than arising) Finally the patterns of both arising and passing away will be `seen'. (this is the most subtle stage) With metta Matheesha #62410 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Kel, We were discussing the idea of 'making' dhammas arise: ------------- Kel: Not really make either. It would become obvious to someone who has gone through it. The difference between moments of kusala and akusala are seen more clearly. -------------- Any moment in which the difference between kusala and akusala is seen clearly is a moment of kusala citta accompanied by panna. Sitting quietly, or concentrating on a kasina, will not cause (is not a causal condition for) such a moment to arise. You say the efficacy of meditation becomes obvious, but things can seem obvious to micha-ditthi as well as to samma-ditthi. And the view that dhammas are controllable in any way is, ultimately, micha-ditthi. ------------------- Kel: > Then you may hope to see the subtle lobha that RobK and others are worried about. ------------------- It is panna that sees the subtle lobha. Hope and belief in making it happen are lobha and micha-ditthi, respectively. ------------------------ Kel: > Otherwise without a deeper understanding of oneself and tendencies you'll make these basic and elementary mistakes. ------------------------ I won't comment on that because I'm not sure how it fits in with what you were saying. ----------- KK: > > No, I have only read parts of them. Are you citing them as examples of formal practices (devices) for "making" kusala and samma consciousness arise? If not, what are they, in your opinion? > > Kel: > I'm citing them as a need for practice for doing specific things that are conducive. ------------ Firstly, let me remind you of how the world is described in the texts. There is only this present moment. If, in the [no longer existent] past, there was right practice then panna might possibly arise now to take one of the presently arisen dhammas as its object. If there was no right practice in the past, panna will not arise now. In either case, the world is just one fleeting moment - if panna is not going to arise there is no time for what you call "doing specific things that are conducive." Secondly, I would like to ask; what specific things (had they been done in the past) might condition panna to arise now? The answer found in several places throughout the ancient texts is: association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma, wise consideration of the true Dhamma and application of it to the present moment. ------------------- Kel: > They are necessary but might not be sufficient for the final goal. If you just read the Earth Kasina and get back to me, this discussion would be easier. ------------------- I have been away from the computer for 24 hours and have not got around to it. As I speak, I am looking at the page you linked me to. There is no mention of kasinas as such: it is only about the following: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice iii. the alms-food-eater's practice iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice v. the one-sessioner's practice vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice vii. the later-food-refuser's practice viii. the forest-dweller's practice ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice x. the open-air-dweller's practice xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice xii. the any-bed-user's practice xiii. the sitter's practice Wow, I hope you are not suggesting any of those is right for me! It would be totally silly for a sense-pleasure addicted householder, like me, to wander into the wilderness pretending to be an ascetic. Moreover, it would be totally silly for anyone to perform those practices with the idea of making kusala consciousness arise. Here and now, in normal daily life, is the only time satipatthana can be developed. It doesn't matter if it is the daily life of an ascetic (whose wants are few) or of a householder (whose wants are many), right view can be developed now if the right conditions have been put in place. ------------------- Kel: > How can you make a categorial statement without having gone through it yourself? If you tell me preparing earth disk for kasina meditation is merely a description then I would be agast (ala andrew). ------------------- I can almost see the horrified look on Andrew's face. The mere suggestion of a prescribed course of action is totally out of this loka! :-) Everything in the Dhamma is ultimately a description. Ultimately, there can be no prescriptions because there is only the present moment, and the dhammas in it (the only real doers of any kind) have no time or inclination to do anything other than what they have been conditioned to do. They arise, perform their functions and fall away - totally in accordance with the conditions that have been put in place. ------------- Kel: > I would type it up but I don't have my book with me at work. Here's a link with an excerpt about ascetic practices: http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-11.htm You'll find there's quite conventional things to do. Look at the last one, sitter's practice. Why do you suppose that's there? ------------ I suppose, when ascetics become extremely well progressed in their asceticism, they reach a point where there is no desire to lie down (not even for sleeping). Such is their non-attachment and their fewness of needs. As I was saying, that is their normal daily life, in which satipatthana may or may not arise - depending on whether the conditions for satipatthana (hearing and considering etc) have been put in place. ---------- KH: > > Sorry to be disagreeing with almost everything you say, but the Abhidhamma is far from obvious - intellectually or otherwise. In my case, for example, <. . .> > > Kel: > Just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it is hard. ----------- You might recall that Ananda got into trouble for thinking that. Even when it is fully understood the Dhamma will be seen as 'profound, deep in meaning, comprehensible only to the wise . . .' --------------------------- Kel: > Maybe if you combine living practice with intellectual understanding it would come easier. How do you even know your current understanding is a step up anyway? What measure do you use? You have said before that you followed a few traditions in your life and everytime you were convinced it was right. So what's the difference now? ---------------------------- We all know from past mistakes that zeal or enthusiasm is not a reliable indicator. The big difference now is that my intellectual understanding is more consistent with the ancient texts. Previously, it was consistent only with a few modern writers and with my "meditation" experiences. -------------------------------------- KH: > > Wrong understanding conditions more wrong understanding. There is no point at which it magically turns into right understanding. > > Kel: > Nope, wrong understanding can be an object of right understanding. There the contrast is as obvious as can be. -------------------------------------- I know that micha-ditthi can become the object of samma-ditthi, but let's not suggest that a path of wrong understanding can lead to right understanding. ---------------------- KH: > <. . .> The unwholesome ones were in no way devices for bringing about the wholesome ones. > > Kel: > Here's the biggest problem of right view having to come first. Buddha only encountered 28 living Buddhas while he was a Bodhisatta. There's no teaching of anatta outside of sasanas. So then how do you suppose he got right view to have these wholesome moments to begin with? Also in most of his human lives, he became an ascetic. What for? He could've just be in the present and be done. ---------------------- The Bodhisatta obtained his right understanding from a Buddha. In some lives he was an ascetic and in others he wasn't, but he developed the paramis regardless of circumstances. Ken H #62411 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:01 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 514- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas lightness of cetasikas, kåya-lahutå lightness of citta, citta-lahutå There are many moments of unawareness. There are seeing, visible object or hardness time and again, but we may be dull and tired without any interest in awareness. However, when mindfulness arises there are also lightness of cetasikas and of citta which perform their functions: all tiredness is gone and there is alertness. Lightness is needed for the development of right understanding. When understanding of what appears through one of the six doors is being developed, there is also lightness which “crushes” sluggishness. If this moment is not wasted realities can eventually be seen as impermanent and not self. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62412 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the > Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with > little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing > [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it." > > Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction > to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html#dies > > Ven. Sariputa wouldn't have given this higher teaching to > Anathapindika if it wasn't appropriate for him. And Anathapindika > asked Sariputta to stop following tradition and to start giving > these higher teachings to householders. So, in other words, if it > seems that a sutta is addressed only to monks or ariyans, that is > because of tradition during the Buddha's time- but it doesn't have > to be followed. ALL of the suttas apply and can be helpful to > EVERYONE. ... S: You raised some good points in your message to Phil #61963. I agree that the suttas apply to everyone and can be helpful to all IF they are ready to appreciate them at the time. At this time, Anathapindika was ready to hear 'this higher teaching'. Perhaps before, there was too much attachment. I think that if it seems a sutta is being addressed to monks or ariyans that is because much of the time, this was his audience. It doesn't mean, the teachings were not for anyone (including ourselves), if inclined to listen. Metta, Sarah ======= #62413 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] causality behaviour sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, I thought you made some good points on 'finding a teacher'. Just a brief comment on this post of yours: --- matheesha wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I wonder if anyone could explain what is happening below in terms of > causality. Also contrasting that with what is considered normal? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > The syndromes of "imitation behaviour," "utilisation behaviour," > and "environmental dependency" were described by Lhermitte and > colleagues in a series of presentations, video demonstrations, and > publications in the 1980s.1-5 Since then, these striking clinical > phenomena have been abundantly detailed.6-12 <...>> The term "imitation behaviour" refers to a condition in which > patients imitate the gestures and behaviour of an examiner, even > when asked not to. Imitation behaviour is considered to be a milder > version of utilisation behaviour, and both are part of the more > comprehensive environmental dependency syndrome. > > http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/68/2/224 ... S: The cittas which condition such behaviour have been accumulated for aeons by decisive support condition with other supporting conditions too. The habitual tendencies are so deep-rooted that only the Buddha totally eradicates such vasana. The way we sit, the way we walk, the way we speak is conditioned to such an extent that even arahants therefore show such deep-rooted pattersn - speaking sweetly or gruffly, walking slowly or quickly, imitating others' actions and so on. In the last example you quote above, we can see how anatta and uncontrollable cittas are - even when asked not to imitate, even when the instructions were clear, the patients continued to do so. With regard to the partial lobe removal cases, we also know that namas and rupas condition each other in multiple ways. So, it all comes down to the complexity of conditions - kamma, pakatu upanissaya paccaya, arammana paccaya and the rest. We can work out a conventional/scientific/psychological explanation, but it will only ever be a superficial explanation, not accounting for accumulations over all the past lifetimes. Metta, Sarah ========== #62414 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:26 am Subject: Re: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) sarahprocter... Hi James, Another brief belated comment - --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > S: When we reflect wisely on kamma, how we're subject to the laws of > > kamma, there's no hatred or ill-will at such times. > > Thanks for your input. Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. Of > course, there is one little snag: The sutta I gave was spoken by the > Buddha as to the ways to combat anger. Someone who has anger is not > likely to "reflect wisely on kamma". :-) .... S: According to the 'higher dhamma', anger only ever lasts the briefest moment and is then gone. Of course, usually, there are many, many such brief moments of anger. But in between such 'bursts' of anger, don't you think there can be wise reflection on dhamma such as on kamma? Even more useful is a moment of mindfulness - being aware of the nature of anger then and there. At such moments, however brief, there's no anger. Of course, it's likely to arise again, but slowly the mindfulness can become more of a habit than the anger....:-) Metta, Sarah p.s Hope you didn't get hit by the last typhoon. Your trip to Hong Kong was well-timed:-)) ========= #62415 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Howard (TG and all), I wrote: ----------------------------------------------- > Did I understand TG correctly when he admitted, quite openly, to this role? Didn't he say that he drops in occasionally at DSG purely to spread mayhem and to disrupt our discussions? > ----------------------------------------------- That semed like a clear memory at the time although I couldn't place where I had seen it. As it turns out, I was wrong. My apologies. I've done some checking and although TG is strongly opposed to the Abhidhamma and commentaries I don't think he comes here with the express purpose of disrupting our proceedings. I may have been thinking of this quite harmless part of message 62065: TG: >This approach is the antithesis of what the Suttas are trying to convey and I think a mind geared in that direction has no chance of making full progress in letting go of conditions. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother butting heads with some folks here who I have much respect for. In other words, if I thought they were wrong but it was of no harm to them or others being influenced by them, I wouldn't bother about it. But since I think there is harm, I bother . . . sometimes. > Ken H #62416 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I replied to your earlier post in quite some detail. So just very briefly to your postscript: --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Sarah & Joop - > > Sarah, a postscript to my previous post: > What it seems to me you are doing is losing the distinction > between > conventional (figurative) and ultimate (literal). Specifically, you are > taking > the literal truth that there is no one to do anything, that there are no actions to be taken by a "person", and treating it as a conventional > truth, which it > is not. .... S: I don't believe I've ever done this, but you're welcome to give an example. ... <...> >The > Buddha, himself, uttered innumerable conventional truths that were > literal > falsehoods. And the main one of them was his constant urging to > intentional > kusala action! (Do this! Refrain from that! You can do this - if you > could not I > would not tell you to do this!) .... S: Yes, I agree. The point, however, is that when the Buddha used such uring and such conventional truths, there was no misunderstanding at all that anything really could be done by any self. Metta, Sarah ======= #62417 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different doorway! Different doorway! sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > One of my personal favourite little moments in the recorded talks > is when Acharn says this, a little bit more urgently than usual. > > The talk is on a very interesting point. > > If we hear a loud noise, and there is pain, it is not the hearing > that is causing the pain, because - of course - hearing is > accompanied by neutral feeling. But there is the rupa of hardness > that is contact the body sense in addition to the rupa of sound that > is contacting the ear sense. They are not wrapped together. > Different doorway, different doorway, with bhavangas between. <..> > p.s if I have got this wrong, about the rupas and the doorways, > please let me know - if you know about abhidhamma, that is. ... S: you got it right. I think it's also important. I raised the topic (as I recall), because I'd read comments which didn't seem to be correct which indicated that it was the hardness in the sound kalapa which caused the painful feeling and other effects. In fact, different doorways, different realities appearing all the time. I'm sensitive to loud noise - sound only experienced with neutral feeling, but also lots of painful bodily feeling (usualy followed by dosa, of course), even if it's Dhamma being played over a loud speaker. Thanks for picking up this point. Metta, Sarah ======= #62418 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil sarahprocter... Hi KenH, Howard, James, TG & all, --- ken_aitch wrote: > While we are on the subject, I might add that there are other aspects > to being a "Buddhist Torquemada." The proponents of the Spanish > inquisition were not only censoring: they were also (in their view) > protecting. Did I understand TG correctly when he admitted, quite > openly, to this role? ... S: Thank you for explaining 'Torquemada'. I don't know about TG, but when James was in Hong Kong, the subject of 'protecting' the teachings, often in strong language, was discussed. An interesting topic. Others (on both sides of the common disputes over the years on DSG) have referred to the same -- the need to protect the commentaries and Abhidhamma or the need to protect meditation practices and so on. Always well-justified. Whatever one's 'take'(!!) or understanding, however much one justifies one's strong language or dosa, as far as I'm concerned, it is just more attachment and dosa. Easier to see when others out there are justifying their stands on wars and politics perhaps....?? I'll leave you all to this one. Metta, Sarah ========= #62419 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:40 am Subject: Seeing the good in others, etc (was, Just to confirm ...) jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >>J: Let me try to explain in more detail. You mention a practice of >>"looking at the good in other people all the time". While I agree >>wholeheartedly with the sentiment, I think the reality is that >>only the anagami and the arahant can actually see the good in >>others all the time. For the rest of us, our latent defilements >>will ensure that, notwithstanding any good resolutions about it, >>there will be plenty of attachment and aversion as we try to >>focus on the good in the person. >> >M: Yes, I didnt mean 'all the time' literally of course :) C'mon >Jon, talk normally will you?! > And I didn't mean 'all the time' literally, either (of course ;-)). My comment was just that our latent tendencies will ensure that any focusing on the good in the other person(s) is bound to involve mixed kusala and akusala, regardless of whether the focussing is done at times when anger arises or as part of a more general 'practice'. To my understanding, there's no need to make a 'practice' of it for that kind of kusala to arise. It is enough to have heard the Buddha's words, understood the meaning and reflected upon what has been understood. Kusala can arise naturally, without the need for there to be a form of 'practice'. >>J: Now when the Buddha speaks of seeing the good in others, he is >>referring to kusala moments only, and not to any akusala that might >>arise intermingled with kusala moments. So as I see it he is not >>recommending a *'practice' of trying to see only the good in >>others*; he is recommending the *cultivation of kusala* of that >>kind (i.e., metta). >> >> >M: Why should he be speaking of developing metta only and not simply >looking at the good? Compared to being angry with someone >continuously, having kusala and akusala intermixed is a lot better. >The Buddha did preach according to the listener. He didnt teach >singala abhidhamma or satipatthana. He taught him simply a few good >ways of living (singalovada sutta). The Buddha was always looking at >way to improve things along a spectrum from akusala to kusala. > It may be true, as you say, that the Buddha did not always teach satipatthana to every person he gave an instruction to. But he always taught aksuala of one kind or another -- its development, the conditions for its arising, its advantages, and so on. What's the use of a technique that necessarily involves the development of aksuala? Who is to say the kusala will outweigh the aksuala in a given individual's case? Wouldn't it be necessary to give a 'health warning' about the possibility of negative effects? The arising of kusala, and hence its further development, does not require the practising of any technique. There is kusala arising in the course of one's daily life, especially for anyone who has an interest in the teachings and sees the value in the development of kusala of all levels, and this kusala can be the basis for the development of further kusala. (By the way, I think looking at the good in others (in a kusala way) involves there being metta at the time. If the citta with person as object is kusala, then the mental factor adosa (metta) will be present.) >Your ability to see how things are in one moment is commendable and >a rare skill. It is also important to be able to string up a few of >those moments together. Compared to 10,000 moments of anger/akusala, >5,000 of kusala mixed with 5.000 of akusala is better. Best would >10,000 moments of kusala. But no one can suddenly get there. There >is a process leading up to it. > I don't think the kind of thing you describe here is the outcome of a fixed practice. But in any event, the development of the path is measured by the development in understanding of the level of insight, not by an increase in the number of kusala mindstates. This is an important point to keep in mind. If our concern is only 'less aversion' or something like that, it's easy to get led into a 'practice' of suppression of obvious aversion, rather than the cultivation of insight. >>Yes, in a sense it can be said that anyone who wants to look at >>someone's good qualities can do so, but will it be kusala? Not >>wholly, certainly, and not necessarily at all. And akusala >>that arises in the course of following a kind of 'practice' >>seems to involve an element of wrong practice, so it's something >>we need to be careful about. >> >> >M: :) go on, tell me why it is wrong practice :) > No, I wasn't hinting at anything further ;-)). It's just stating the obvoius, I believe: if I undertake a particular practice and that practice involves akusala then I am in the realm of wrong practice. >>Well what I was trying to say is that the Buddha would not be >>recommending anything that involved the development of aksuala. >>As I see it, any directed practice or technique will >>inevitablely involve mindstates that are not kusala. What the >>Buddha is recommending is the cultivation of metta, karuna and >>upekkhaa. >> >> >M: There is a sutta called the 'the thief' in AN. In this the buddha >tells a thief not to kill and rape when stealing. This is >interesting in that he doesnt tell him not to steal. (sorry I cant >find it on the net). He was all for minimising akusala as much as >possible. really as much as the listner practically could. So I dont >accept tht his approach was all or nothing, black or white. Even >cultivation of metta, karuna etc will have moments of akusala in >between, would it not? How can someone suddenly become perfectly >kusala - that is impossible - thats why there is a gradual path. >Anupubbiya sikkha. > No, I am not saying the Buddha's approach was 'all or nothing, black or white'. Perhaps you conceive of metta or its development as an intentional practice. But that is not the case at all. Metta is a kind of kusala that any and all may have from time to time. People who have never heard the teachings also have metta mindstates, and people who have no 'practice' can also develop metta in the course of a lifetime, if they have confidence in its value. Of course any development of (i.e., increase in) metta in an individual will be gradual, very gradual in fact, because most of the time the mind-state is not accompanied by metta. >>Ceto-vimutti is a very exalted state, and I don't think it has >>much direct relevance for us. However, the basic issues are >>the same: any exhortation by the Buddha to develop a particular >>mindstate or quality is a reference to kusala only, and should >>not be read as referring to the following of a technique which, >>for those with kilesas remaining, will necessarily involve >>moments of akusala. >> >> >M: Like I said, in that case no one will ever be able to develop >such states. which makes it a senseless statement by the buddha to >even suggest it. :) > Not so, as I see it. Kusala of any kind may arise other than as part of a 'practice'. And if it arises, it can be developed. >>The 5 hindrances hinder the development of insight only at the >>moments of their actual arising (as latent tendencies they cannot >>be hindrances). So for starters they are not hindrances as >>regards insight into moments of kusala citta, vipaka citta or >>kiriya citta or their objects. >> >>Then as regards the moments of their actual arising we need to >>keep in mind that the Satipatthana Sutta makes it clear (in the >>section 'The Contemplation on Mental Objects') that the hindrances >>can be the object of mindfulness, in just the same way that kusala >>mindstates, or rupas (such as the breath), can. (See the extract >>posted at the end of this message.) This means the moments of >>kusala consciousness with mindfulness are arising interspersed >>with moments of 5-hindrances consciousness. >> >> >M: I agree with you entirely! > This is indeed a surprise (and a pleasant one, too) ;-)) >But again you need to look at not just >the momentary view, but the view of several moments strung up >together. How much of the time during the day are we free of >hinderences? In what circumstances does such a situation free of >hinderences arise? > Well if (as you agree) hindrances can be object of mindfulness in the same way that kusala mindstates can, I don't see that it matters how much of the day we are free of the hindrances. In fact, every moment of seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness and body consciousness is free of the hindrances. So there is no obstacle to awareness of those dhammas or to the objects experienced by them (visible object, audible object, hardness/softness, etc). I think that in aggregate these moments would be a substantial part of the day. >If we were free of hindrences (temporarily and >relatively) would it make panna more likely to arise? > We all have the hindrances that we have; to wish for the situation to be other than it is is only going to mean there's no chance of there being any insight into the reality of the present moment! >[as for them >being inculded in the satipatthana my reply was best stated by >howard - in what you called the 'sweet spot'!] > The problem with the 'sweet spot' idea is that it isn't found in the recorded teachings. But in any event, the akusala that arises during the day is mostly of low intensity, much of it almost imperceptible; in other words, perfect 'sweet spot' conditions, I'd have thought ;-)) >>I'm aware of the often-expressed view that a temporary suppression >>of the hindrances -- as may occur at moments of jhana -- is necessary for, or somehow hastens or facilitates, the development of insight. But as far as I can see nothing like this is actually stated in the recorded teachings. >> >> >"These are the five hindrances & obstructions that overcome >awareness & weaken discernment. Which five? Sensual desire is a >hindrance & obstruction that overcomes awareness & weakens >discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & >anxiety... Uncertainty is a hindrance & obstruction that overcomes >awareness & weakens discernment... > >Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains, going >far, its current swift, carrying everything with it: If a man were >to open watercourses leading off from both sides, the current in the >middle of the river would be interrupted, diverted, & dispersed. The >river would not go far, its current would not be swift, and it would >not carry everything with it. In the same way, if a monk has not rid >himself of these five hindrances... there is no possibility that he >can know what is for his own benefit, or the benefit of others, or >both, or that he should come to realize a superior human attainment, >a truly noble knowledge & vision..." > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html > >M: Well there you are :). > Yes, an interesting sutta, but I don't think it addresses the particular issue of whether suppressing the hindrances by attaining jhana is necessary for the development of insight (or hastens or facilitates that development). Of course the sutta does emphasise the disadvantages of the hindrances, and their incompatibility with enlightenment. So let's get on with the development of insight!! Holding to an idea of 'better to suppress the hindrances first' will only mean the postponement of that task; one does not see the urgency of the development of insight of the presently arising dhamma. >Hope things are well with you and Sarah, > Thanks for the good wishes. And all the best to you. Jon #62420 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Just briefly, many thanks for the good quotes. I may take this topic up a little further in Bangkok too. --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Regarding the contemplation of the signless (animittanupassana) I am > clueless, perhaps even signless ;-) Vism.XXII,117 clearly says > "Contemplation of the signless is the same as contemplation of > impermanence." "The Buddhist Dictionary" under 'vipassana' says > "[contemplation of] the unconditioned (or signless, animittanupasana)". .... S: Yes, all correct. .... > L: Perhaps what is meant is what is gone because of impermanence is > signless and similarly nibbana being cessation is signless. Can you > relate impermanence, sign, and signlessness to A. Sujin's remarks on > sign? .... S: I understand that when there is the clear comprehension of the rise and fall of dhammas, the wisdom turns more and more away from conditioned dhammas and more and more towards the unconditioned (signless) dhamma, nibbana. This is because it sees more and more how useless and unsatisfactory the impermanent dhammas are. .... > > There is also this: > > Patisambhidamagga I,435: "When he sees clearly the sign [of formations] > as terror and sees [their] fall each time he applies [his knowledge to > them] because he is resolved upon the signless [aspect of nibbana], this > is the signless abiding [of insight]. .... S: I think this quote exactly elaborates on this point. The signless abiding means the turning towards nibbana and away from the fearfulness or harm of conditioned dhammas. Without the clear knowledge of their impermanence when the dhammas are known precisely as they are, this would be impossible. .... >When he sees clearly desire [of > formations] as terror and sees [their] fall each time he applies [his > knowledge to formations] because he is resolved upon the desireless > [aspect of nibbana], this is the desireless abiding [of insight]. When > he sees clearly misinterpretation [of formations] as terror and sees > [their] fall each time he applies [his knowledge to formations] because > he is resolved upon voidness [aspect of nibbana], this is the void > abiding [of insight]." ... S: Thanks for this perfect quote. We see the 3 aspects and of course it depends on conditions which will be apparent just before enlightenment. However, all have to be clearly understood prior to that. ... > > ps: Herman appears to be signless also. ... S: Sometimes friends need signless breaks for a while. I'm always glad to see the marks again when they appear. Metta, Sarah ======= #62421 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. sarahprocter... Larry, p.s I think that there was a good quote in Connie's post about 'not paying attention to any sign and paying attention to the signless element" (M i 296) which is relevant to the understanding of impermanent dhammas leading to the 'not paying attention to any sign' and turning more and more towards the signless dhamma. Also, in Nina's P of D "when he gives attention as impermanent, he is led out to cessation, nibbaana, through the influence of the signless liberation....etc" Metta, Sarah p.s Math and others, thx for your comments too. No more time, so that's really all for now....I'll try to send the odd e-card while we're away. Will looking forward to reading all the messages of course. ======== #62422 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/12/06 8:00:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > >The > >Buddha, himself, uttered innumerable conventional truths that were > >literal > >falsehoods. And the main one of them was his constant urging to > >intentional > >kusala action! (Do this! Refrain from that! You can do this - if you > >could not I > >would not tell you to do this!) > .... > S: Yes, I agree. The point, however, is that when the Buddha used such > uring and such conventional truths, there was no misunderstanding at all > that anything really could be done by any self. > ========================= Then we entirely agree on this. :-) With metta, Howard #62423 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/12/06 8:31:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi KenH, Howard, James, TG &all, > > --- ken_aitch wrote: > >While we are on the subject, I might add that there are other aspects > >to being a "Buddhist Torquemada." The proponents of the Spanish > >inquisition were not only censoring: they were also (in their view) > >protecting. Did I understand TG correctly when he admitted, quite > >openly, to this role? > ... > S: Thank you for explaining 'Torquemada'. I don't know about TG, but when > James was in Hong Kong, the subject of 'protecting' the teachings, often > in strong language, was discussed. An interesting topic. > > Others (on both sides of the common disputes over the years on DSG) have > referred to the same -- the need to protect the commentaries and > Abhidhamma or the need to protect meditation practices and so on. Always > well-justified. > > Whatever one's 'take'(!!) or understanding, however much one justifies > one's strong language or dosa, as far as I'm concerned, it is just more > attachment and dosa. Easier to see when others out there are justifying > their stands on wars and politics perhaps....?? > > I'll leave you all to this one. > > Metta, > > Sarah ============================ I recall the Buddha having spoken about "taking it easy" in defending him and the Dhamma. (I forget the sutta reference - as I often do.) I also recall his urging tolerance and respect even for opposing views and for other teachers. I also recall his having spoken against an attitude of "This is true and all else is false". I also recall the Buddha having spoken about defending the truth by saying not that "this is so" but that "I believe this is so." The Buddha, of course, was not a relativist in matters of truth. He *knew* the truth, I strongly believe. But we are not buddhas. As I see it, the Dhamma is best defended by laying it out in terms of "This is what the Buddha said" and "This is what I think he meant (and why)", and, by one's speech and actions, with love and kindness, displaying what is the Dhamma-in-action and the Dhamma-in-effect. With metta, Howard P.S. I strongly agree with your assertion "Whatever one's 'take'(!!) or understanding, however much one justifies one's strong language or dosa, as far as I'm concerned, it is just more attachment and dosa. ... " #62424 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:06 am Subject: Two Suttas Useful for All of Us (IMO) upasaka_howard Hi, all - With regard to some recent discussions, I submit the following. With metta, Howard ****************************** Sn 4.8 Pasura Sutta To Pasura Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: Sn 824-834 Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. "Only here is there purity" — that's what they say — "No other doctrines are pure" — so they say. Insisting that what they depend on is good, they are deeply entrenched in their personal truths. Seeking controversy, they plunge into an assembly, regarding one another as fools. Relying on others' authority, they speak in debate. Desiring praise, they claim to be skilled. Engaged in disputes in the midst of the assembly, — anxious, desiring praise — the one defeated is chagrined. Shaken with criticism, he seeks for an opening. He whose doctrine is [judged as] demolished, defeated, by those judging the issue: He laments, he grieves — the inferior exponent. "He beat me," he mourns. These disputes have arisen among contemplatives. In them are elation, dejection. Seeing this, one should abstain from disputes, for they have no other goal than the gaining of praise. He who is praised there for expounding his doctrine in the midst of the assembly, laughs on that account & grows haughty, attaining his heart's desire. That haughtiness will be his grounds for vexation, for he'll speak in pride & conceit. Seeing this, one should abstain from debates. No purity is attained by them, say the skilled. Like a strong man nourished on royal food, you go about, roaring, searching out an opponent. Wherever the battle is, go there, strong man. As before, there's none here. Those who dispute, taking hold of a view, saying, "This, and this only, is true," those you can talk to. Here there is nothing — no confrontation at the birth of disputes. Among those who live above confrontation not pitting view against view, whom would you gain as opponent, Pasura, among those here who are grasping no more? So here you come, conjecturing, your mind conjuring viewpoints. You're paired off with a pure one and so cannot proceed. _____________________ From MN 95 (Canki Sutta) "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguar ds the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. We regard this as the safeguarding of the truth. But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth." "There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive.When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows c lose to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment. "To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth. "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth." "The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth." "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. We regard this as the final attainment of the truth. But what quality is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "Exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, Bharadvaja. If one didn't make an exertion, one wouldn't finally attain the truth. Because one makes an exertion, one finally attains the truth. Therefore, exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "But what quality is most helpful for exertion? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for exertion." "Contemplating is most helpful for exertion, Bharadvaja. If one didn't contemplate, one wouldn't make an exertion. Because one contemplates, one makes an exertion. Therefore, contemplating is most helpful for exertion." "But what quality is most helpful for contemplating?..." "Being willing... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate..." "But what quality is most helpful for being willing?..." "Desire... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing..." "But what quality is most helpful for desire?..." "Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas... If one didn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't arise..." "But what quality is most helpful for coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas?..." "Penetrating the meaning... If one didn't penetrate the meaning, one wouldn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas..." "But what quality is most helpful for penetrating the meaning?..." "Remembering the Dhamma... If one didn't remember the Dhamma, one wouldn't penetrate the meaning..." "But what quality is most helpful for remembering the Dhamma?... " "Hearing the Dhamma... If one didn't hear the Dhamma, one wouldn't remember the Dhamma..." #62425 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:21 pm Subject: Re: Two Suttas Useful for All of Us (IMO) matheesha333 Thank you Howard, The Pasura sutta was beautiful. Debate is useful as smearing oneself with s... Konwing the danger it is wisely avoided. Important to understand why the need to debate arises. More important to bring this need to an end. with metta Matheesha #62426 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] causality behaviour matheesha333 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, > > I thought you made some good points on 'finding a teacher'. > > Just a brief comment on this post of yours: > > --- matheesha wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I wonder if anyone could explain what is happening below in terms of > > causality. Also contrasting that with what is considered normal? > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > The syndromes of "imitation behaviour," "utilisation behaviour," > > and "environmental dependency" were described by Lhermitte and > > colleagues in a series of presentations, video demonstrations, and > > publications in the 1980s.1-5 Since then, these striking clinical > > phenomena have been abundantly detailed.6-12 > <...>> The term "imitation behaviour" refers to a condition in which > > patients imitate the gestures and behaviour of an examiner, even > > when asked not to. Imitation behaviour is considered to be a milder > > version of utilisation behaviour, and both are part of the more > > comprehensive environmental dependency syndrome. > > > > http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/68/2/224 > ... > S: The cittas which condition such behaviour have been accumulated for > aeons by decisive support condition with other supporting conditions too. > > The habitual tendencies are so deep-rooted that only the Buddha totally > eradicates such vasana. The way we sit, the way we walk, the way we speak > is conditioned to such an extent that even arahants therefore show such > deep-rooted pattersn - speaking sweetly or gruffly, walking slowly or > quickly, imitating others' actions and so on. > > In the last example you quote above, we can see how anatta and > uncontrollable cittas are - even when asked not to imitate, even when the > instructions were clear, the patients continued to do so. With regard to > the partial lobe removal cases, we also know that namas and rupas > condition each other in multiple ways. > > So, it all comes down to the complexity of conditions - kamma, pakatu > upanissaya paccaya, arammana paccaya and the rest. We can work out a > conventional/scientific/psychological explanation, but it will only ever > be a superficial explanation, not accounting for accumulations over all > the past lifetimes. ------------- M: I was thinking I never really finished this thread. What struck me about this behaviour was that these people seem to have no control in what they can or cannot do. Their behaviour is very much determined by what they see around them - doing things according to that. We have more control over what we can or cannot do. But both instances are dependant on conditions. Both instances are anatta. Control whether present or not, makes no difference to that. Conventional 'control' if seen with right view, poses no problems to understanding dhammas. with metta Matheesha #62427 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma teacher scottduncan2 Dear Matheesha, Thank you for your reply. M: "I find, and it never ceased to amaze me, that there are good qualities in people, even in those that we least expect to find it in. Everyone can teach us something -at least in terms of being human and wholesome." Yes, this is a very good point. I see it too. M: "Best not to be too attached in looking for the perfect teacher. Even if monks rained from the skies we would not find a teacher perfect enough to satisfy our desires and projections. How many are dissatisfied even with the Buddha?" I think that you're right again. This is an attachment I was not really aware of: looking for the "perfect" teacher. As I've considered your reponse I've also noticed how much dosa is mixed in as well. I see that I'm afraid that what I think I know (more attachment) might be challenged, if you can believe that. What sort of way is that to approach a kalyaanamitta? Its like saying, "Teach me something but only what I think I know already." M: "Take it easy. Learn what you can. Enjoy the companionship of a kalyanamitta." Thanks again, Matheesha. Hey, you've been serving the kalyanaamitta function, haven't you? With loving kindness, Scott. #62428 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. N: "We ought to give respect to a bhikkhu, but that does not mean that we should not verify ourselves what he is teaching." In this way one can have even more of a chance to study. One needn't just take it all in. One can reflect, study, verify, confirm or disconfirm, clarify, seek clarification, and always question. A very good point. N: "I am inclined to think more of the Dhamma and not so much of the person of a teacher. And even the relation of teacher/pupil: who is learning from whom?" It has to be a very integrated, interpersonal, intersubjective sort of thing. The only relational situation I know of that mimics this is the patient/therapist interaction. This is deeply intersubjective and interpersonal. N: "When we only consider the Dhamma could we not say that we learn from discussions, from questions and remarks which make one consider the truth more? No need to think of teacher and pupil. To view matters from the ultimate point of view, not thinking of persons, can help one in one's relationships with others. Being teacher, being pupil, can we not see this from the point of view of cittas that arise and fall away for a moment? What we see as a status can change from moment to moment, the next moment who is called a pupil may be a teacher. " But what if, I write anxiously, the so-called pupil suddenly thinks that the view of the so-called teacher is wrong in a given context? N: "...And in the final analysis the Dhamma is our refuge. In that way we become our own teacher." I think I'm still way too attached to things such as, "I don't know enough," or "Someone else knows more." Mana, as you say. With loving kindness, Scott. #62429 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'As Tears Go By'......(was:Born with pa~n~na.) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply. This struck me in particular: S: "I think it helps a lot to understand the thinking as being real and the conversations, stories and dreams as being merely conceptual, merely imaginary. At moments of awareness, the story is cut momentarily, the dhammas are known for what they are. Then, back to the stories, on and on and on." The thinking is real. The content is imaginary. It that a fair paraphrase? Let me try this mundane example: At times, during a psychotherapy session (sorry to use this particular example, its just that this is common to me) I find, suddenly, that I had been caught up in a fantasy of some sort. At this moment the fantasy stops having itself and it becomes an object of recollection. I find I can go over it in my head and begin to scour it for meaning. In other words, first there is thinking without mundane awareness; then awareness of thinking which stops the train of that particular line of thought; then more thinking. I'm not sure what one would call that interstitial moment which arises which is aware of being immersed in a day-dream. With loving kindness, Scott. #62430 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:35 pm Subject: Re: black mail scottduncan2 Dear connie, Thanks and sorry for the delay - I'm still going over this one: c: "The Aayatanas, note 5: << There are six classes of objects: five classes of the five sense objects and the sixth class which is dhammaaramma.na. Dhammaaramma.na can be experienced only through the mind-door; it includes: the five sense-organs, the subtle ruupas, citta, cetasika, nibbaana and concepts. >>" I'll keep trying... With loving kindness, Scott. #62431 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah philofillet Hi Howard (and all) (pps to Nina) > > > > Really tiresome. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Gee, that's too bad, Phil! Hope you get some rest soon! > ----------------------------------------- Thanks, Howard. Rest is on the horizon. Another attempt underway to defeat the internet addiction that makes me cranky here. (I'm hardly ever cranky away from the computer - that's the funny thing.) I'm going to limit my use of the internet to baseball stuff until the end of the season and have another go at Dhamma discussion starting in Novermber. We'll see if there is more tolerance when there is less addiction to the internet. It's certainly possible. Then again it's possible that I will never see the value of ongoing Dhamma discussion with people (no matter how kindly-mannered they are) who take a non-assisted (by the commentaries) reading of translated suttas as the ultimate arbiter in any discussion. We shall see what we shall see! :) Phil p.s thanks also for the right speech sutta. No doubt that reflecting on it with understanding (ie understanding that the virati that is abstention from wrong speech is a cetasika that arises momentarily due to conditions beyond one's control) will condition moments of abstention from wrong speech. No doubt about that at all. p.p.s Nina, I'm sorry that because of my dealing with this internet addiction I can't stick around to respond to all the great passages you are posting. Here's hoping that other students of Acharn Sujin who are currently inactive here will step in! :) #62432 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:04 pm Subject: Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah philofillet Hi again Howard > Then again it's possible that I will never see the value of ongoing > Dhamma discussion with people (no matter how kindly-mannered they > are) who take a non-assisted (by the commentaries) reading of > translated suttas as the ultimate arbiter in any discussion. We > shall see what we shall see! :) BTW, I didn't mean to single you out as one who insists only on suttas. You are open to Abhidhamma as well, I know. Phil #62433 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah philofillet Hi James > Well, I am finally settled into an apartment in Taichung, Taiwan. I I hope things are going well for you in your new home. And I hope to meet you in Japan someday. We've got room for you at our place as long as you don't do any of that weird meditation stuff. (haha) Phil #62434 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:29 pm Subject: Thinking muddles corvus121 Hello everyone One of my areas of confusion is with the use of the English word "thinking" in relation to the cetasikas vitakka and vicara. Not even a visit to U.P. seems to help! In English, "thinking" has a broad meaning of "mind exercising" and a narrower but far more prevalent meaning of "having ideas in the mind". I can see that vitakka and vicara fit ok in the broad meaning as they are both namas and not present at a moment of sense-door consciousness. But they don't seem to fit in with the common English usage of "ideas" thinking. I note BB prefers to use "application" instead of "thinking" and says that vitakka-vicara are not indispensable to cognition. I read that manasikara (attention) is different from vitakka because it is a requisite for cognition (a universal) and it turns associated states towards the object. Vitakka may then apply them onto the object. Vicara then sustains that application. All in one mind- moment. But even *without* vitakka-vicara, contact (phassa) occurs and citta arises. So what is special about the functioning of vitakka-vicara? The only hint I can pick up is on p.57 of CMA: in jhana, vitakka "has the special task of inhibiting the hindrance of sloth and torpor". Sloth and torpor are cetasikas, too. So it seems that kusala vitakka plays a particular role in inhibiting (blocking?) akusala sloth and torpor. How does this fit in with the notion that akusala cetasikas can never arise with kusala citta? Yes, I *am* in a muddle. Best stop here. What am I missing that is staring me in the face? All suggestions greatly appreciated. Best wishes Andrew #62435 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Connie, Nina, Here's another snippet regarding what is the meaning of the contemplation of the signless and how it is the same as contemplation of impermanence: CMA p.356: "Therin, the contemplation of non-self, which discards the clinging to a self, becomes the door to emancipation termed contemplation of the void. The contemplation of impermanence, which discards the sign of perversion, becomes the door to emancipation termed contemplation of the signless. The contemplation of suffering, which discards desire through craving, becomes the door to emancipation termed contemplation of the desireless." L: As you can see, whatever arises is void, signless, and desireless. Therefore, even when he is (seemingly) here, Herman is nibbana. I'm sure he will be glad to know that. Larry #62436 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking muddles lbidd2 Hi Andrew, Regarding vitakka and vicara in jhana, I think sloth and torpor don't arise because of the wholesome energy of vitakka and vicara, and when sloth and torpor do arise sati remembers the discipline and conditions the arising of vitakka and vicara. As for what is thinking, first I think we have to distinguish thinking with words and thinking without words. In thinking without words I would include perception, views (ditthi), insight (panna), and consciousnesses with the functions of determining and javana. That is to say, consciousnesses and cetasikas that create an explicit relationship. I suspect that discursive thinking (thinking with words) is a mental version of intimation rupas. These are consciousness produced (I think?), and so can be considered to be an expression of the above consciousnesses and cetasikas. Larry -------------------- Andrew: "Hello everyone One of my areas of confusion is with the use of the English word "thinking" in relation to the cetasikas vitakka and vicara. Not even a visit to U.P. seems to help!..." #62437 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking muddles ashkenn2k Hi Andrew I prefer the definition by the Book of Analysis: <<565.....Therein what is initial application (Vitakka)? That which is mentation, thinking, thought, fixation, focussing, application of the mind, right thought. This is called initial application Therein what is sustained application (vicara)? That which is searching, examining, constant inspection by consciousness. This is called substained application>> pg 34 Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary <> pg 35 Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary <> You can go into this website on both of these cetasikas http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas10.html which is written by Nina > > The only hint I can pick up is on p.57 of CMA: in jhana, vitakka > "has the special task of inhibiting the hindrance of sloth and torpor". Sloth and torpor are cetasikas, too. So it seems that kusala vitakka plays a particular role in inhibiting (blocking?) akusala sloth and torpor. How does this fit in with the notion that akusala cetasikas can never arise with kusala citta? Vitakka and vicara could arise with aksusala also. They are not exclusively kusala. pg 36 Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary <> Cheers Ken O #62438 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A relaxing summer interlude with James jonoabb Hi Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Sarah, Jon, James, >what a delightful report about your lunch together. I wonder whether >Jon taped it? > Sorry, no tape. But it's something to keep in mind for another time (whether James or anyone else). >There are so many subjects, I can't make it all out. >But James will write as well. > James has given a very comprehensive report. I hope to find time to add a couple of comments of my own. Jon (in Bangkok) #62439 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:07 am Subject: Re: Thinking muddles ken_aitch Hi Andrew, ----- <. . .> A: > I read that manasikara (attention) is different from vitakka because > it is a requisite for cognition (a universal) and it turns associated > states towards the object. Vitakka may then apply them onto the > object. Vicara then sustains that application. All in one mind- > moment. > > But even *without* vitakka-vicara, contact (phassa) occurs and citta > arises. So what is special about the functioning of vitakka-vicara? -------- We know that ordinary javana cittas and the first jhana citta have vitakka-vicara, while the higher jhanas (at both the mundane and supramundane level) do not. If I understand you correctly, you are asking, "Are there incidents in ordinary daily life that might give us an idea of the difference between cognition with and without vitakka-vicara?" I haven't read anything on this, but I might be able to suggest an answer (to be taken with a grain of salt, of course). When we are listening to ordinary speech, we can, at the same time, think about what we are listening to. However, when we are listening to highly intellectual or technical speech we have put aside thinking and concentrate on listening. In the second instance, cognition can occur just as well as in the first, but not in the same way. Another, similar, example might be in the different ways of reading. Ordinary, slow, reading can be done with the luxury of thinking. Speed-reading, on the other hand, has to be done with concentration alone. And yet cognition somehow occurs. A third example might be conventional meditation, of the kind in which the meditator has the impression that thinking has ceased. He is still conscious but not in the ordinary way. I am certainly not suggesting that our daily lives have any javana cittas that don't include vitakka-vicara. But these conventional examples might be useful by way of simile. Then again, they might not. We shall see what others have to say. :-) Ken H #62440 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi All, > >... >When Jon arrived we got right down to the business of dhamma >discussion! ;-)) > > You make me sound like some kind of Dhamma-freak. I waited until you were on at least your second mouthful of food ... >He started out by asking me some questions about >the present moment and if there is metta or not in the present >moment. I tried to keep up with him and his questions but I'm >really not sure how well I did. My brain was rather scrambled from >one day after the other of countless activities and stress. > > You did very well in disguising any 'scrambled brain' syndrome, and I thought your comments were very much to the point. I began by mentioning metta, because I thought it would be a relatively safe, non-controversial topic ;-)). But you are right that I see metta and the present moment as being very closely related. This is because for much of the day we are in the presence of other people, or they are in our thoughts, and at such moments the mind-state will either be kusala (in which case metta will be present) or akusala. If kusala, then the characteristic of kusala in general, and metta in particular, can be known. This is all relevant to the question of knowing the difference between kusala and akusala when one is 'practising metta meditation'. It cannot be the case that reciting certain passages or thinking in a certain way means that the mind-state is kusala. But no-one has ever explained (to my satisfaction) how this distinction is known for them in practice. >You can >see from Sarah's post that we covered a huge variety of topics >during our discussion, but most of the discussion centered on >knowing dhammas during the present moment and the role of meditation >in Buddhist practice. This was good, as there was a lot to discuss, >but I wanted to discuss some about the role of anatta in Buddhist >practice- but we didn't get to that. Maybe I will have to take >another trip to Hong Kong. ;-)) > > The role of anatta in Buddhist practice? Sounds well worth another visit. But we might need more than just a few hours to get to understand each other's perspective on that one ;-)). >... >So, anyway, it was a very pleasant lunch and we agreed more than we >disagreed. ... I was able to understand Jon and Sarah more in person >in one afternoon than I have been able to on the Internet for years. >Really, that says something! > My own thoughts exactly! Jon #62441 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 93 and Tiika. jonoabb Hi Nina Many thanks for elaborating on 'outlet'. Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jon and Larry, >Outlet, niyyaana. >In this case outlet is used in a wide sense, since it also pertains >to the wrong path that can lead out from this world to an unhappy >destiny. >In the Path of Discrimination (p. 265) outlet is used in connection >with the three liberations of signless (seeing dhammas as >impermanent), desireless (seeing them as dukkha), void (seeing them >as anattaa) which occur just before enlightenment. It depends on the >individual's accumulations which of the three occurs. Some people are >more inclined to see dhammas as anattaa, other as dukkha, others as >impermanent. >We read in the P. of Discr. : impermanent, he is led out to cessation, nibbaana, through the >influence of the signless liberation...etc.> > > Interesting (to me, at least) the emphasis being on a path that leads *out of samsara*, rather than *to nibbana*. I think that is a helpful way to see things. Do we really want to leave here? Jon #62442 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness and insight 2 (samadhi) jonoabb Hi Mike mike wrote: >>It is more the fact that the panna is not of the appropriate kind. The >>panna of samatha bhavana knows the difference between kusala and >>akusala, but does not attend to the characteristic of the object. >> >> > >I think so--I don't remember reading about two different degrees(?) of >pa~n~naa before unless we're talking about lokiya vs lokuttara >sammaadi.t.thi. Does this mean that samatha bhaavanaa and vipassana >bhaavanaa are incompatible (i.e. can't arise with the same citta)? Is >this explicit in the texts? > > It is explicit in the suttas that there are 2 kinds of bhavana, samatha and vipassana. It is also explicit in the texts that samatha bhavana refers to the wholesome absorption in certain specified objects, capable of leading to jhana citta, whereas vipassana refers to the development of insight capable of leading to enlightenment. It's not so much a matter of incompatibility, as describing different kinds of kusala, just as dana and sila do. While a moment of samatha cannot be a moment of insight, at a moment of insight the tranquility of samatha is present. Jon #62443 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Mateesha Thanks again for your considered and well-presented comments. I hope you don't mind if, during this period I'm away from home, I give short answers on selected parts from your posts (I think this is the best way to keep the discussion going). matheesha wrote: >Hi Jon, >... > > >>>M >If you focus on the present moment, even for a moment (!), there is focusing. There is some samadhi there. >>> >>> >>J:Ah yes, but you are assuming, I think, that 'focusing on the >>present moment' means the citta will be kusala (presumably either samatha or vipassana). I don't think that is a safe assumption. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this point, as it's a very crucial one. >> >> > >M: Lets work our way backwards from the end result. A moment of >insight, accompanied by Samadhi, all kusala. No problems there. > >How to get there? We cannot force panna to arise. It arises on it's >own when the conditions are right. > >Sati and Samadhi are essential for it to arise through direct >experiencing. > >Samadhi is difficult to wield and the only thing that we can change >(conventionally speaking) is where and how we focus our awareness. >Why would we want to focus? Is it kusala canda? Or is it craving for >attainments? Or more likely, these might alternate rapidly. >But by focusing something interesting happens. Sati gives rise to >samadhi-(this is one of the basic tenants). It is focusing on the >present moment, not an unwholesome object. So it is kusala. > > Here I think we have come to a fundamental point of difference between us ;-)) You are saying that focussing on an object (assuming it's not an unwholesome object) brings kusala. I think this is another of those common misconceptions. There is no formula for the arising of kusala. If there were, we could all become enlightened ;-)) I think many people read the suttas as saying that focussing on one of the 38 'kammatthaana' gives rise to samatha capable of leading to jhana. In my view, what the suttas say is that only these 38 'kammatthaana' support the development of samatha capable of leading to jhana. I'm sure you can see the difference. As regards the idea of focussing on the present moment, which you mention here, there is no such reference in the recorded teachings. What the suttas talk about is knowing dhammas as they truly are; but nowhere does it mention 'focussing on' dhammas in this connection. To my understanding, it is impossible to focus on dhammas, because dhammas are 'visible' only to panna, so what gets focussed on is a (necessarily flawed) concept of what dhammas are. Jon #62444 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/12/06 11:53:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard (and all) (pps to Nina) > > >> > >>Really tiresome. > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Gee, that's too bad, Phil! Hope you get some rest soon! > >----------------------------------------- > > > Thanks, Howard. > > Rest is on the horizon. Another attempt underway to defeat the > internet addiction that makes me cranky here. (I'm hardly ever > cranky away from the computer - that's the funny thing.) > > I'm going to limit my use of the internet to baseball stuff until > the end of the season and have another go at Dhamma discussion > starting in Novermber. We'll see if there is more tolerance when > there is less addiction to the internet. It's certainly possible. > Then again it's possible that I will never see the value of ongoing > Dhamma discussion with people (no matter how kindly-mannered they > are) who take a non-assisted (by the commentaries) reading of > translated suttas as the ultimate arbiter in any discussion. We > shall see what we shall see! :) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Phil, I hope you continue actively on the list, actively engaging in Dhamma discussions. You are free to pick and choose whom you speak with. If I am among those with whom you'd rather not speak, that's fine - seriously. It happens that I have come across commentarial interpretations that have been helpful to me, and I will take assistance (though not dictation) from any source that seems helpful, especially from people who should know a great deal due to being said to be or to have been ariyans. But ultimately my understanding of the Dhamma cannot and, IMO, should not, be the result of merely substituting the insights and deliberations of others for mine. I take the Kalama Sutta very seriously. As for the commentaries, I don't own any. My experience so far has been that the English translations available are distressingly poor. One more point, Phil: There are lots of things, on DSG and elsewhere, that I find "tiresome". Largely I consider that fact to be due to a combination of factors, among which, and looming largest, are my own deficiences and inclinations, and especially my impatience, and only secondarily deficiencies in others. In any case, I do make an effort to be polite and kind in the voicing of my evaluations. First of all, I could be wrong! Secondly, even if I am correct, that is no excuse to be hurtful. Of course, there are times at which I fail at this, but I do try to apologize for that when it happens. The friendly exchange of understandings on and views of the Dhamma among comrades in the Dhamma should not, IMO, be swamped by an adherence to doctrine that allows for no consideration of alternative perspectives. The use of blinders isn't a method of knowledge acquisition. ------------------------------------------ > > Phil > > p.s thanks also for the right speech sutta. No doubt that > reflecting on it with understanding (ie understanding that the > virati that is abstention from wrong speech is a cetasika that > arises momentarily due to conditions beyond one's control) will > condition moments of abstention from wrong speech. No doubt about > that at all. > > p.p.s Nina, I'm sorry that because of my dealing with this internet > addiction I can't stick around to respond to all the great passages > you are posting. Here's hoping that other students of Acharn Sujin > who are currently inactive here will step in! :) > > > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Phil, what will happen after you have stayed away from the internet, even for a long time, and then return to it? Will the addiction, if that is wha t it is, then be gone? Why would that be so? Would the hiatus alone do the job? I doubt that. I would consider other approaches, and they would include ones that wouldn't necessarily require a "cold turkey" approach. The work required for such a thing, as I see it, is always primarily an internal matter, work done within one's own mind. ====================== With metta, Howard #62445 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/13/06 12:05:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > BTW, I didn't mean to single you out as one who insists only on > suttas. You are open to Abhidhamma as well, I know. > > Phil > ======================= Thanks for mentioning that, Phil. :-) But what if, in fact, I were a person who saw no value in the Abhidhamma? Would that tell you all you all you needed to know about me as a person and as a Buddhist? With metta, Howard #62446 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:30 am Subject: Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi James > > > Well, I am finally settled into an apartment in Taichung, Taiwan. I > > I hope things are going well for you in your new home. Thanks. Very nice of you to consider me. There have been many struggles but I am getting adjusted. And I hope to > meet you in Japan someday. We've got room for you at our place as long > as you don't do any of that weird meditation stuff. (haha) ;-)) That sounds like a really good plan! Yeah, I could lay off of the meditation while I am at your place; I'm not addicted after all- or I could just wait till you two are asleep. ;-)) > > Phil Metta, James #62447 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Hi All, > > > >... > >When Jon arrived we got right down to the business of dhamma > >discussion! ;-)) > > > > > > You make me sound like some kind of Dhamma-freak. I waited until you > were on at least your second mouthful of food ... LOL!! Oh goodness, I didn't mean to set the wrong impression! You were really very kind. You began the dhamma discussion when it was time to do so- not a moment too soon or a moment too late. If you hadn't, Sarah and I would have chatted about teaching all afternoon! ;-)) I was able to understood you a lot more in person than I have been able to over the Internet. Regretfully, it is because of this misunderstanding that I haven't been too nice to you on the Internet as I should have been. (But, you will have to forgive me, I have met and been conditioned by a lot of weirdos on the Internet! ;-) So, no, you weren't overly pushy and I'm sorry that I gave that impression. > > >He started out by asking me some questions about > >the present moment and if there is metta or not in the present > >moment. I tried to keep up with him and his questions but I'm > >really not sure how well I did. My brain was rather scrambled from > >one day after the other of countless activities and stress. > > > > > > You did very well in disguising any 'scrambled brain' syndrome, and I > thought your comments were very much to the point. Oh wow, I really did do a good job then! I had to push my mind to its absolute limits to keep up with you and the topics you raised. Believe me, if I was rested the discussion would have been even more dynamic. I began by > mentioning metta, because I thought it would be a relatively safe, > non-controversial topic ;-)). LOL! As much as I argue the necessity and benefit of metta meditation in this group you thought it would be non- controversial! ;-)) But, really, I didn't expect it coming from you. There you were, with those serious, chisled and ruggedly handsome facial features with piercing blue eyes staring at me through your glasses asking, "Is there metta at the present moment???" I was like, thinking to myself, "Uhhh, I don't know. Can I hide under a rock now??" LOL! Just kidding, you were very kind...but I was surprised by the line of questioning. But you are right that I see metta and > the present moment as being very closely related. This is because for > much of the day we are in the presence of other people, or they are in > our thoughts, and at such moments the mind-state will either be kusala > (in which case metta will be present) or akusala. This is a very good point. The test of true metta is how we experience it in everyday experience. As for myself, to be honest, I don't believe that I have very much metta in everyday experience. I am predominately an unhappy person. But that is why I stress the importance of metta meditation- it is what is important to practice for unhappy people like me. If kusala, then the > characteristic of kusala in general, and metta in particular, can be known. > > This is all relevant to the question of knowing the difference between > kusala and akusala when one is 'practising metta meditation'. It cannot > be the case that reciting certain passages or thinking in a certain way > means that the mind-state is kusala. But no-one has ever explained (to > my satisfaction) how this distinction is known for them in practice. First of all, metta meditation is not just about reciting certain passages like "May all beings be happy". It is much more than that. I tried to explain to you in person, but you were closed to the explanation. I told you that the feeling of metta is like the selfless feeling of love and protection that a mother has for her child, which is described in the texts. I asked you about that but you seemed to push the issue aside and bring up other subjects. It is no wonder that no one has explained metta to you to your satisfaction. Perhaps you have some of the same issues I have? My natural mother used to tie me up like a dog while she went out drinking and drugging. She abandoned me at four years old and my step mother wasn't able to show me motherly love either. We learn how to love others and to love ourselves by the love our mothers give to us. If that is lacking, we are in a world of trouble! In this day and age, unfortunately, most of us are lacking in that department, so we must try harder to cultivate metta- during meditation and everyday life. > > >You can > >see from Sarah's post that we covered a huge variety of topics > >during our discussion, but most of the discussion centered on > >knowing dhammas during the present moment and the role of meditation > >in Buddhist practice. This was good, as there was a lot to discuss, > >but I wanted to discuss some about the role of anatta in Buddhist > >practice- but we didn't get to that. Maybe I will have to take > >another trip to Hong Kong. ;-)) > > > > > > The role of anatta in Buddhist practice? Sounds well worth another > visit. But we might need more than just a few hours to get to > understand each other's perspective on that one ;-)). If I come again to discuss that subject, which is a very real possibility, I would stay in Hong Kong for more than one day to have a thorough discussion. > > >... > >So, anyway, it was a very pleasant lunch and we agreed more than we > >disagreed. ... I was able to understand Jon and Sarah more in person > >in one afternoon than I have been able to on the Internet for years. > >Really, that says something! > > > > My own thoughts exactly! Glad you think so! It was really nice meeting you Jon and I apologize again for any nastiness I have shown you on or off-list. Metta, James #62448 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma teacher buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > > I do agree with all that Howard has had to say but I would like to > > add that your dhamma teacher should be a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. > > > > Metta, > > James > > > Hallo James, all > > It's possible to agree partly with you. > Why should one have ONE teacher? > I think more is better, serial or even at the same moment. > And then is very welcome that one of them is a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. Sure, I would agree with that. We should have several teachers, as the Buddha had prior to his enlightenment. But I thought that Scott was asking for ONE teacher, so I gave my input based on that request. Of course, no one has to agree. > > BTW: Glad to hear again from you, James > Glad that you are glad, but I haven't really been gone that long; I don't think so. But thanks for your encouragement. Metta, James #62449 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:51 am Subject: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > Another brief belated comment - > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > S: When we reflect wisely on kamma, how we're subject to the laws of > > > kamma, there's no hatred or ill-will at such times. > > > > Thanks for your input. Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. Of > > course, there is one little snag: The sutta I gave was spoken by the > > Buddha as to the ways to combat anger. Someone who has anger is not > > likely to "reflect wisely on kamma". :-) > .... > S: According to the 'higher dhamma', anger only ever lasts the briefest > moment and is then gone. Of course, usually, there are many, many such > brief moments of anger. But in between such 'bursts' of anger, don't you > think there can be wise reflection on dhamma such as on kamma? Even more > useful is a moment of mindfulness - being aware of the nature of anger > then and there. At such moments, however brief, there's no anger. Of > course, it's likely to arise again, but slowly the mindfulness can become > more of a habit than the anger....:-) Oh, I don't know. I think in order to do that we will all have to buy that mental state detector that Phil bought. Maybe he can sell them to us all wholesale!! ;-)) I think that you are seeing mental states in a rather black or white fashion, in an "on-off" binary type of system- like computer function. But the mind is not a computer and it doesn't function is an "on-off" type of fashion. Though there are kusala and akusala mind states, they are each of different degrees which has a great influence on the final outcome. When it comes to conditions, the conditions are limitless... > p.s Hope you didn't get hit by the last typhoon. Your trip to Hong Kong > was well-timed:-)) So far I haven't experienced any typhoons, in Hong Kong or Taiwan. I have been very lucky in that regard (knock on wood ;-)). Rain is not one of my favorite things when I have to get around so the longer avoided the better. Metta, James #62450 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:27 am Subject: Re: Retribution? (was: Re: [dsg] Endowed with Wisdom ?!?) upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 8/13/06 12:04:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > So far I haven't experienced any typhoons, in Hong Kong or Taiwan. > I have been very lucky in that regard (knock on wood ;-)). > -------------------------------------- Howard: Would that be knocking on "the true cross" or the bodhi tree? LOLOL! ------------------------------------- Rain is > > not one of my favorite things when I have to get around so the > longer avoided the better. > ================= Enjoy your new surroundings, James!! Have a wonderful time. Do look into Sheng-Yen's Dharma Drum organization. I think it could be a great opportunity for you provided there is some English usage there. He, himself, is in Taiwan far more than at the Ch'an Center in Queens, NY. Of course, maybe you'll find some great Theravadin groups there. Ya never know! :-) With metta, Howard #62451 From: Illusion Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:17 pm Subject: Four Conditions of Achievement in This Very Life vvhite_illusion Dear Dhamma Friends, Bhante Pannadipa's Dhamma Talk, "Four Conditions of Achievement in This Very Life" is now available in MP3 format. http://www.silashin.org/dhamma.htm#audio or you can directly download it from http://www.silashin.org/audio/conditionsofwelfare.mp3 -----SUMMARY----- Bhante talked about the four kinds of achievements "sampada". They are 1) Effort 2) Awareness 3) Livelihood 4) Good Friendship Utthana Sampada or Right Effort is a kind of activeness, alertness or attentiveness. For meditators effort is useful for concentration; for business men, profit; for students, success. Arakkha Sampada or Awareness functions as a kind of protection to whatever you have achieved (through right effort). It functions as your banking system that gauges how much you spend or how much you should utilize whatever it is one has achieved (through right effort). Sama Jivikata Sampada or Livelihood maintains balance in our life. (Sama meaning balanced) You should not go into extremes in any aspect of life whether spiritual or mundane. Kalyanamitta or Good Friendship is a friend that has the same values as you do. Good/Dhamma friends help to support you to achieve a 100% in whatever you do. Metta, -- []\/[] []D (Maya Putra) "It is easy enough to be pleasant when life flows by like a song. But the man worthwhile is one who will smile when everything goes dead wrong." ---Ella Wheeler Wilcox #62452 From: "mike" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness and insight 2 (samadhi) m_nease wrote: > It is explicit in the suttas that there are 2 kinds of bhavana, samatha > and vipassana. It is also explicit in the texts that samatha bhavana > refers to the wholesome absorption in certain specified objects, capable > of leading to jhana citta, whereas vipassana refers to the development > of insight capable of leading to enlightenment. Understood-- > It's not so much a matter of incompatibility, as describing different > kinds of kusala, just as dana and sila do. While a moment of samatha > cannot be a moment of insight, at a moment of insight the tranquility of > samatha is present. OK Jon, thanks. mike #62453 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking muddles corvus121 Hi Larry Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > Regarding vitakka and vicara in jhana, I think sloth and torpor don't > arise because of the wholesome energy of vitakka and vicara, and when > sloth and torpor do arise sati remembers the discipline and conditions > the arising of vitakka and vicara. A: So, it is vitakka-vicara that set the "jati" (kusala/akusala/kiriya) of the jhana-citta? > As for what is thinking, first I think we have to distinguish thinking > with words and thinking without words. In thinking without words I would > include perception, views (ditthi), insight (panna), and > consciousnesses with the functions of determining and javana. That is to > say, consciousnesses and cetasikas that create an explicit relationship. > I suspect that discursive thinking (thinking with words) is a mental > version of intimation rupas. These are consciousness produced (I > think?), and so can be considered to be an expression of the above > consciousnesses and cetasikas. A: I treat words as concepts and so, for me, "thinking with words" connotes multiple mind-moments of mental proliferation pursuing conventional meanings. I'm not sure I understand how intimation rupas fit in here. In "thinking without words", there is cognition plus some incredibly brief mental application and examination that is either kusala, akusala or neutral. I think I'm getting hung up on the time element - how can all this meaning be crammed into one mind-moment? But it has to be - because that's all there is *now*! Best wishes Andrew #62454 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking muddles corvus121 Dear Ken O Good of you to help out with these quotes and links. Many thanks. As is often the case, they raise questions as well as answer them. See below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > I prefer the definition by the Book of Analysis: > <<565.....Therein what is initial application (Vitakka)? That which > is mentation, thinking, thought, fixation, focussing, application of > the mind, right thought. This is called initial application > > Therein what is sustained application (vicara)? That which is > searching, examining, constant inspection by consciousness. This is > called substained application>> > > pg 34 Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary > < depending on a favourite of the king or one of his relatives' > friends, so consciousness gets onto the object depending on > application of thought. If that is so how does consciousness that is > without application of thought get onto the object? It too gets onto > the object simply by the power of the application of thought. Just > as by acquaintance that man enters the king's palace without help, so > through acquaintance consciounes that is without application of > thought gets onto the object without application of thought>> A: This simile is hard for me to grasp. The villager gets into the palace not because he *is* someone with authorisation, but because he knows or is acquainted with such a person. Citta applies to an object through vitakka or the acquaintance with past vitakka? > > The only hint I can pick up is on p.57 of CMA: in jhana, vitakka > > "has the special task of inhibiting the hindrance of sloth and > torpor". Sloth and torpor are cetasikas, too. So it seems that > kusala vitakka plays a particular role in inhibiting (blocking?) > akusala sloth and torpor. How does this fit in with the notion that > akusala cetasikas can never arise with kusala citta? > > Vitakka and vicara could arise with aksusala also. They are not > exclusively kusala. A: Yes, of course. > pg 36 Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary > < appropriate thinking it occurs as activity>> A: Can there not be inappropriate thinking as an activity as well? Perhaps that is micha-ditthi etc rather than sloth and torpor? Thanks again. Best wishes Andrew #62455 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Thinking muddles corvus121 Dear KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > ----- > <. . .> > A: > > I read that manasikara (attention) is different from vitakka because > > it is a requisite for cognition (a universal) and it turns associated > > states towards the object. Vitakka may then apply them onto the > > object. Vicara then sustains that application. All in one mind- > > moment. > > > > But even *without* vitakka-vicara, contact (phassa) occurs and citta > > arises. So what is special about the functioning of vitakka- vicara? > -------- > > > We know that ordinary javana cittas and the first jhana citta have > vitakka-vicara, while the higher jhanas (at both the mundane and > supramundane level) do not. If I understand you correctly, you are > asking, "Are there incidents in ordinary daily life that might give us > an idea of the difference between cognition with and without > vitakka-vicara?" A: Er ... okay. I think I believe I understand what happens in daily life but my mind struggles with the idea of discursive thinking happening in a mind-moment at the non-conventional level. > I haven't read anything on this, but I might be able to suggest an > answer (to be taken with a grain of salt, of course). When we are > listening to ordinary speech, we can, at the same time, think about > what we are listening to. However, when we are listening to highly > intellectual or technical speech we have put aside thinking and > concentrate on listening. In the second instance, cognition can occur > just as well as in the first, but not in the same way. > > Another, similar, example might be in the different ways of reading. > Ordinary, slow, reading can be done with the luxury of thinking. > Speed-reading, on the other hand, has to be done with concentration > alone. And yet cognition somehow occurs. > > A third example might be conventional meditation, of the kind in which > the meditator has the impression that thinking has ceased. He is still > conscious but not in the ordinary way. > > I am certainly not suggesting that our daily lives have any javana > cittas that don't include vitakka-vicara. But these conventional > examples might be useful by way of simile. Then again, they might not. A: The similes have been useful in reinforcing that there is "thinking" without the sort of mentation I take for "thinking". I think Ken O provided the answer I was looking for - although I'm finding the answer almost as mysterious as the original question. (-: "This Dhamma ... is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise." Best wishes Andrew #62456 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking muddles lbidd2 Hi Andrew, A: "So, it is vitakka-vicara that set the "jati" (kusala/akusala/kiriya) of the jhana-citta?" L: Maybe, I don't know. I think of vitakka and vicara as intention and sustained intention. For example, when I go for a walk I set out with an intention and continue with a sustained intention. When we say that the jati of a volitional activity is determined by intention, I think vitakka is what is meant because it is a conceptual construct, unlike cetana which seems to be the impulse that actually motivates. Of course more than intention is needed to condition the arising of jhana cittas. The hindrances have to be suppressed and the other jhana factors have to be present. However both cetana and vitakka are translated as 'intention' so there is some uncertainty here. A: "I treat words as concepts and so, for me, "thinking with words" connotes multiple mind-moments of mental proliferation pursuing conventional meanings. I'm not sure I understand how intimation rupas fit in here. In "thinking without words", there is cognition plus some incredibly brief mental application and examination that is either kusala, akusala or neutral. I think I'm getting hung up on the time element - how can all this meaning be crammed into one mind-moment? But it has to be - because that's all there is *now*!" L: I would say both 'here' and 'now' are indeterminate in that they can be conceived and maybe even experienced in a narrow or broad scope. I think the meaning of 'sankhara' is that there is never only one little dot of meaning, but the meaning of 'sabhava' is that any formation is made up of many dots of meaning. As for thinking with words, I think words like I speak and hear them. They seem to me to be imaginary speech. But I would be very interested to know the nature of a deaf person's discursive thinking, whether there is an imaginary visual element from sign language, for example. Larry #62457 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Mateesha Another short comment on a part of your post. matheesha wrote: >Sati and Samadhi are essential for it [panna] to arise through direct >experiencing. > >Samadhi is difficult to wield and the only thing that we can change >(conventionally speaking) is where and how we focus our awareness. >Why would we want to focus? Is it kusala canda? Or is it craving for >attainments? Or more likely, these might alternate rapidly. >But by focusing something interesting happens. Sati gives rise to >samadhi-(this is one of the basic tenants). It is focusing on the >present moment, not an unwholesome object. So it is kusala. Samadhi >also suppresses the hindrances when there is sufficient intensity, >giving less chance of akusala from hindrences to arise. > In my last post I discussed the idea that samadhi leads to kusala. In this post I'd like to discuss the idea that 'Samadhi suppresses the hindrances when there is sufficient intensity'. To my understanding of the texts, the hindrances are suppressed when samatha is developed to the point of absorption concentration. But I don't think we should attribute this to 'focussing' and samadhi. As we know, samatha ('Calm' or 'tranquility') is a form of kusala, and its development requires panna. The kusala aspect of samatha lies in the manner in which the object is contemplated, not in the fact that the object is being concentrated on (since, as we have agreed before, concentration takes the ethical quality of the citta it accompanies). So as I see it the situation is: the absorption in the object comes from a kusala interest in the object; rather than: (willed) concentration on the object leads to kusala mind-states. I think you'll agree that the difference between these two propositions is most significant. So I would say that it is the development of samatha that leads to the suppression of the hindrances. Of course, samadhi plays a role, but the main role is played by the kusala factors of panna and passadhi. >So if we look at what happened: > >[A=Akusala cittas K=kusala cittas] > >At first the mindstream would be like this: > >AAAKKAKKAAKAKAKAKKKKAAAAKKKKKKAAKKK > >When focusing begins and samadhi is suppressing hindrances it is >like this: > >KKKKKAKKKKKKAAAKKKKKKKAKKKKKKKK > Yes, the illustration you give here applies whenever kusala (of whatever kind) arises; obviously at such times there is less akusala than there would otherwise have been. But the question is whether a higher ratio of kusala vs. akusala mindstates serves as a condition for the arising of mindfulnesss/insight. I believe you place a lot of weight on the sutta passage that says insight arises in one who is concentrated, not in one who is not concentrated (or words to that effect). If I have understood you correctly, you see this as being the samadhi of samatha initially, which then becomes the samadhi of vipassana at some stage. I do not see how this could happen, and am wondering if you'd like to say a little more about how you see it occurring. >The akusala would not be completely suppressed unless in a jhana. It >is also not necessary to do so as the satipatthana talks of sati on >craving, hindrances etc. > >When there is focusing on what is arising now, there is less time to >go into papanca and give rise to thoughts of self/permanence etc. >When there is ongoing focusing one would either not understand or >understand anatta, but not encourage the concept of self. (It would >be difficult to give rise to thoughts of self, especially if there >is right view of the what the Buddha taught to begin with.) > > But is the idea that thoughts of self, permanence, etc have less opportunity to arise at the precise moments that kusala citta arises really a relevant consideration in the overall scheme of things? To my understanding of the teachings, only the development of insight can lead to the reduction and eventual eradication of the unwholesome tendencies, including that of self-view. At all other times the accumulated akusala tendencies are either manifest, in which case they are accumulating further, or are latent, in which case they retain their full potential to manifest at later moments. Jon #62458 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:48 pm Subject: Addiction to quietness?? buddhatrue Hi Nina, Sarah was so kind as to give me a copy of your book `The Buddha's Path'. I have been reading it and find many things I agree with and are of benefit to the general reader. However, there are a few things, here and there, which I question. If you don't mind, I would like to discuss some of those things in this forum. This isn't because I want to find fault with your book or with you, I would just like to clarify what you mean by what you write. (For those who don't like to see Nina questioned at all, please just skip this post! I know that she doesn't mind, but some members see her as sacrosanct and really don't like any line of questioning.). Nina, on page 15 you wrote: "It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of one's mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet surroundings. It may seem that, when one is in isolation, there is no anger or aversion and that it is easier to analyse one's mental states. However, at such moments there is bound to be clinging to quietness and when there is clinging there is no development of understanding." When I read this I immediately thought to myself, "Nina must have never been on a silent meditation retreat or she wouldn't think this." Nina, have you ever been on a silent meditation retreat? Have you ever really been submerged in quietness for an extended period of time? If so, you would know that rather than being removed from anger and aversion, there is plenty of anger and aversion!!! Nina, I think you are just judging what is going on at a silent meditation retreat by what you see, since you have never experienced one for yourself. You see people sitting quietly, walking around quietly, and eating quietly and think, "Oh this is just so peaceful. These people are obviously clinging to quietness." But the reality of the situation is actually not what it may appear to be on the surface. Nina, imagine that you have to give up writing for 10 days (I know that you do a lot of writing so this would be something significant for you); imagine that you also have to give up television, movies, radio, reading, the Internet, talking to Lodewijk, talking to anyone, etc. Do you honestly think you would be very happy with that situation? Do you honestly think that you would experience no frustration, anger, or aversion? Do you honestly think that you would cling to that quietness and want it to go on and on? If so, you are fooling yourself. You need to live in silence for a week to 10 days and see what it is really like. From my experience and those I have communicated with, there is nothing addictive or attachment oriented about it (maybe Howard could add his input??). Nina, the way of the world is noise, noise, noise. We are attached to noise; we are not attached to quiet. Sitting in a silent meditation retreat and facing one's mind rather than chasing after everyday distractions is just about the hardest thing a person can do. If quietness is addictive, why isn't the whole world just clamoring to attend quiet retreats? Did the Buddha ever teach his monks or laypeople to stay away from quiet surroundings because they were addictive? No, actually he encouraged the exact opposite- he encouraged his monks to seek out quiet surroundings. He praised his monks when they were quiet and attentive. Nina, perhaps I have misunderstood you, but you seem to have this issue all wrong. And your misconception could be because you speak of something you haven't experienced first-hand. Metta, James Ps. I think you are traveling now so I don't expect a reply anytime soon. #62459 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking muddles ashkenn2k Hi Andrew According to my personal opinion, the classification of jati of a citta is three fold a. depending on the three kusala or akusala roots. So the if the roots are of kusala, that jati of the cita is kusala b. depending on the "fixed order" of dhammas, like the sense citta is a vipaka citta and not kusala or akusala. c. depending on attainment, as Arahants javana cittas are kiriya, neither kusala or aksuala > > A: This simile is hard for me to grasp. The villager gets into the > palace not because he *is* someone with authorisation, but because > he knows or is acquainted with such a person. Citta applies to an > object through vitakka or the acquaintance with past vitakka? k; This acquaintance is again two fold. the first acquaintance is due to knowing someone who knows the king and he is being introduced to the king and get acquainted with him. Hence the citta gets to know the object by the 1st acquaintance. Thus it said the application of thought places the consiousness upon the object The second acquaintance is by means of after knowing the king, there is no need for him to seek others help to get to know him. He could see the king directly as he has already know him by the first acquaintance thus describe as the power of the first acquaintance. Similar, the attainment of the 2nd jhanas is not possible without attaining the 1st jhanas. In the attainment of the 1st jhanas, vittaka brings citta to the object through the 1st acquaintance. Subsequently reaching the 2nd jhanas, vittaka is suppressed, the citta still able to concentrate on the object through the 2nd acquantaince by means of the power of the 1st acquaintance. > A: Can there not be inappropriate thinking as an activity as well? > Perhaps that is micha-ditthi etc rather than sloth and torpor? > k; During jhanas, there is no inappropriate thinking as sensual pleasure is withdrawn. However after the jhanas there is possibility of inappropriate thinking if we assumed that the jhanas are not of supramundane type by which one reach Arahantship. for eg extracted from the link I send earlier thought of sense-pleasures (kama-vitakka) thought of malevolence (vyapada-vitakka) thought of harming (vihimsa-vitakka Cheers Ken O #62460 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Addiction to quietness?? upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 8/14/06 1:48:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Nina, on page 15 you wrote: > > "It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding > of one's mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in > quiet surroundings. It may seem that, when one is in isolation, > there is no anger or aversion and that it is easier to analyse one's > mental states. However, at such moments there is bound to be > clinging to quietness and when there is clinging there is no > development of understanding." > > When I read this I immediately thought to myself, "Nina must have > never been on a silent meditation retreat or she wouldn't think > this." Nina, have you ever been on a silent meditation retreat? > Have you ever really been submerged in quietness for an extended > period of time? If so, you would know that rather than being > removed from anger and aversion, there is plenty of anger and > aversion!!! Nina, I think you are just judging what is going on at a > silent meditation retreat by what you see, since you have never > experienced one for yourself. You see people sitting quietly, > walking around quietly, and eating quietly and think, "Oh this is > just so peaceful. These people are obviously clinging to > quietness." But the reality of the situation is actually not what it > may appear to be on the surface. Nina, imagine that you have to > give up writing for 10 days (I know that you do a lot of writing so > this would be something significant for you); imagine that you also > have to give up television, movies, radio, reading, the Internet, > talking to Lodewijk, talking to anyone, etc. Do you honestly think > you would be very happy with that situation? Do you honestly think > that you would experience no frustration, anger, or aversion? Do > you honestly think that you would cling to that quietness and want > it to go on and on? If so, you are fooling yourself. You need to > live in silence for a week to 10 days and see what it is really > like. From my experience and those I have communicated with, there > is nothing addictive or attachment oriented about it (maybe Howard > could add his input??). > > =========================== I think that optimal practice consists of a combination of 1) silent retreat(s) involving cultivation of calm and clarity and investigation of dhammas in the midst of external and internal seclusion ranging from daily meditation periods (one or more) to silent retreats lasting from days to months, and 2) ongoing guarding of the senses and moment-to-moment mindfulness in the course of ordinary activities. I strongly believe that both are needed, and my personal interpretation of the satipatthana and anapanasati suttas suggests that both are part of the practice. As regards the silent "formal" practice of (1), whether consisting of a single meditation "sitting" or an extended retreat, one certainly discovers that external silence and seclusion opens up the floodgates of internal noise. It discloses a vast panorama of noise, upset, irritation, craving, and aversion f multiple varieties - in short, defilement - that one hardly dreamed was there. One also discovers, however, that the practice, if stuck with, will induce a degree of calming which not only eases the heart, but makes the investigation of what arises and ceases far more doable. That increased calm, along with a resultant enhanced clarity, enables the seeing of what is not usually visible. The usual metaphor is that of a pond in which, a storm having eased up, has had the muddy silt settle to the bottom and the surface no longer ruffled by wild winds, so that all the odd fish swimming below the surface, some beautiful, some hideous, are now viewable. With metta, Howard #62461 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >>But you are right that I see metta and the present moment >>as being very closely related. This is because for much >>of the day we are in the presence of other people, or they >>are in our thoughts, and at such moments the mind-state >>will either be kusala (in which case metta will be present) >>or akusala. >> >> > >This is a very good point. The test of true metta is how we >experience it in everyday experience. As for myself, to be honest, >I don't believe that I have very much metta in everyday experience. >I am predominately an unhappy person. But that is why I stress the >importance of metta meditation- it is what is important to practice >for unhappy people like me. > > I think we're all in the same boat as regards the general lack of metta in our daily life. But the point is that regardless of how much or how little it arises, it is at times that it does arise that (a) its characteristic can be known, and (b) it can be further developed. Actually, these 2 points are really different ways of saying the same thing. When there is mindfulness of presently arising kusala its characteristic is known more clearly and its value (as kusala) is appreciated, strengthening the tendency for its further (future) arising. So regardless of whether we have an interest in formal practice, we should keep in mind the importance of knowing more about the presently arising metta (among other dhammas of course). >First of all, metta meditation is not just about reciting certain >passages like "May all beings be happy". It is much more than >that. I tried to explain to you in person, but you were closed to >the explanation. I told you that the feeling of metta is like the >selfless feeling of love and protection that a mother has for her >child, which is described in the texts. I asked you about that but >you seemed to push the issue aside and bring up other subjects. It >is no wonder that no one has explained metta to you to your >satisfaction. > I'm familiar with the simile given in the suttas of metta being like a mother's love for her child. But I don't think that helps much in being able to distinguish whether the present mindstate is the kusala one of metta or the akusala one of the near enemy of metta, namely, selfish affection (or subtle attachment). In the case of a formal practice, this distinction is particularly important because when the practice begins the mind-state is, by definition, other than the 'target' one, and there is presumably a point in the practice when, in the eyes of the meditator, the mindstate becomes the target kusala. >Perhaps you have some of the same issues I have? My >natural mother used to tie me up like a dog while she went out >drinking and drugging. She abandoned me at four years old and my >step mother wasn't able to show me motherly love either. We learn >how to love others and to love ourselves by the love our mothers >give to us. If that is lacking, we are in a world of trouble! In >this day and age, unfortunately, most of us are lacking in that >department, so we must try harder to cultivate metta- during >meditation and everyday life. > > I'm very sorry to hear about your difficult childhood. Life must have been pretty miserable for you. However, our tendencies for metta and other forms of kusala have been accumulated over countless lifetimes, and are not directly related to the events of this particular lifetime (although these can influence how those tendencies manifest in this life). Actually, the cultivation of metta is recommended for everyone, regardless of their present tendencies or family background. Fortunately, everyone has the accumulated tendency for metta, and metta can and does arise from time to time in one's life (other than in the context of formal practice). So that is an opportunity for its characteristic to be known and for the tendency to be further developed. >If I come again to discuss that subject, which is a very real >possibility, I would stay in Hong Kong for more than one day to have >a thorough discussion. > > Looking forward to it already! >>My own thoughts exactly! >> >> > >Glad you think so! It was really nice meeting you Jon and I >apologize again for any nastiness I have shown you on or off-list. > > No apology necessary, James. I understand people's frustration in hearing the teachings explained the way I have come to understand them ;-)). Jon #62462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:17 am Subject: Seeing the good in others, etc - typo correction jonoabb Mateesha and All In the following paragraph, 'akusala' should read 'kusala': "It may be true, as you say, that the Buddha did not always teach satipatthana to every person he gave an instruction to. But he always taught aksuala of one kind or another -- its development, the conditions for its arising, its advantages, and so on." Sorry for the oversight. Jon #62463 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:12 pm Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi matheesha333 Hi Jon, J: I hope > you don't mind if, during this period I'm away from home, I give short > answers on selected parts from your posts (I think this is the best way > to keep the discussion going). M: No problem Jon, take your time, write when you can. > > > >>>M >If you focus on the present moment, even for a moment (!), there is focusing. There is some samadhi there. > >>> > >>> > >>J:Ah yes, but you are assuming, I think, that 'focusing on the > >>present moment' means the citta will be kusala (presumably either samatha or vipassana). I don't think that is a safe assumption. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this point, as it's a very crucial one. > >> >M: Lets work our way backwards from the end result. A moment of > >insight, accompanied by Samadhi, all kusala. No problems there. > > > >How to get there? We cannot force panna to arise. It arises on it's > >own when the conditions are right. > > > >Sati and Samadhi are essential for it to arise through direct > >experiencing. > > > >Samadhi is difficult to wield and the only thing that we can change > >(conventionally speaking) is where and how we focus our awareness. > >Why would we want to focus? Is it kusala canda? Or is it craving for > >attainments? Or more likely, these might alternate rapidly. > >But by focusing something interesting happens. Sati gives rise to > >samadhi-(this is one of the basic tenants). It is focusing on the > >present moment, not an unwholesome object. So it is kusala. > > >J: Here I think we have come to a fundamental point of difference between > us ;-)) > > You are saying that focussing on an object (assuming it's not an > unwholesome object) brings kusala. > > I think this is another of those common misconceptions. There is no > formula for the arising of kusala. If there were, we could all become > enlightened ;-)) > M: Ok, I might have got kusala and punna mixed up! I am not clear about the difference between the two except to say that one leads to nibbana and ther other to good vipaka. I take it that kusala has a panna element according to the abhidhamma? I think there is a formula for kusala to arise, it is called the noble eightfold path. If there was no formula, all those monks going and living in jungles, being a burden on lay people, would be a useless act, championed by the Buddha. He could have gone back to his princely life, stayed on his throne and got all his lay subjects to come and listend to him preach, much more effectively! > I think many people read the suttas as saying that focussing on one of > the 38 'kammatthaana' gives rise to samatha capable of leading to > jhana. In my view, what the suttas say is that only these 38 > 'kammatthaana' support the development of samatha capable of leading to > jhana. I'm sure you can see the difference. > M: How do you think it supports samatha? Could you clarify a bit more? > As regards the idea of focussing on the present moment, which you > mention here, there is no such reference in the recorded teachings. > What the suttas talk about is knowing dhammas as they truly are; but > nowhere does it mention 'focussing on' dhammas in this connection. M: "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself..-Maha-satipatthana Sutta >J: To > my understanding, it is impossible to focus on dhammas, because dhammas > are 'visible' only to panna, so what gets focussed on is a (necessarily > flawed) concept of what dhammas are. > M: So according to your idea, how is panna supposed to gain insight, without direct experiencing? Because you say direct experiencing is impossible through focusing - if so what does panna 'work with'? How can it know anything other than what is just fed into it through theory? ..or through logical conjecture? Where does the direct experiencing come in? You are experiencing dhammas now. Otherwise you would not be experiencing anything at all. What is not clear is their characteristics, because there is no panna. Or rather there is not enough samadhi for panna to arise. Your experiencing is not clear enough to see a sound arising. It is not clear enough to see it passing away. You DO know when it is happening and you are in the middle of it though. But not with any insight. There isnt enough samadhi for there to be any clarity of your experience. with metta Matheesha #62464 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher jonoabb Hi Scott I'd be interested to hear a little more about why you're thinking of entering into a formal teacher/student relationship. I don't see this kind of arrangement as being a part of the Theravadin tradition. The question I'd be asking myself, in your position, is whether such an arrangement is really necessary or indeed most conducive to the further development of understanding, bearing in mind that it may in fact limit one's access to other sources of the Dhamma. Jon Scott Duncan wrote: >Dear All: Howard, James, Andrew, Matheesha, Sarah, > >Thank you very much for your thoughtful replies. > >Naturally I've decided to use Andrew's suggestion of dipping the >teacher in solution and checking the colour; being colour-blind this >ought to be interesting. > >Oh yes - the new, serious me... > >I find, first of all, that, and this may be due to imprinting, I am >influenced by the quality and depth of discussion in this forum such >that it almost structures my expectations of a teacher - s/he ought to >be equally compentent. > >Secondly I find myself almost naturally much influenced by the clarity >and specificity of the abhidhamma perspective as it reflects on sutta >teachings. > >And thirdly I have my own sort of gut (and possibly intuitive) >reactions to have to assess. I appreciate the instruction to make use >of my own efforts and judgements hence I know the decision as to >whether to associate with a given spiritual friend has to rest with me >in the end. > >That being said, I have met once with the person in question. I'll >stop here because I want a bit more direction. Given that the person >is a member of the bhikkhu sangha, is it respectful to come here with >questions about this - about how to evaluate (in this case) him - and >with some specific concerns? > >I do plan to speak with him again and I am assessing him, as I think I >should. I'll wait to get your sense on how to tell of my meeting, if >to do so at all, and on the best, most respectful way to continue to >tap into your collective experience. This is not like buying a car, >which I can do myself. This is much more important, it seems. > #62465 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi James and Howard, --------- James to Nina: > Do you honestly think > you would be very happy with that situation? Do you honestly think > that you would experience no frustration, anger, or aversion? Do > you honestly think that you would cling to that quietness and want > it to go on and on? If so, you are fooling yourself. You need to > live in silence for a week to 10 days and see what it is really > like. -------- To be fair to Nina, she did say: "It is felt by some people that, . ." and: "It may seem that, . . ." Only then did she say: "However, at such moments there is bound to be clinging to quietness." So of course Nina knows that formal meditation is not the same thing to all people at all times. --------- J: > Nina, have you ever been on a silent meditation retreat? --------- As I recall Nina's previous comments, she has never believed in formal Buddhist meditation. However, others who now think the same way she does have had extensive experience with it. I suspect Sarah, for example, has put in more hours than the rest of us combined. So we can't assume, 'If they had tried it, they wouldn't think the way they do.' --------------- Howard: > I think that optimal practice consists of a combination of 1) silent retreat(s) involving cultivation of calm and clarity and investigation of dhammas in the midst of external and internal seclusion ranging from daily meditation periods (one or more) to silent retreats lasting from days to months, and 2) ongoing guarding of the senses and moment-to-moment mindfulness in the course of ordinary activities. I strongly believe that both are needed, and my personal interpretation of the satipatthana and anapanasati suttas suggests that both are part of the practice. ------------------ Howard has extended the discussion slightly - from "attachment to" to "the efficacy of" formal practices. So I will add my comments, if I may. On the face of it, it is incongruous that a Dhamma student should even consider formally practising. If the world really is the way the Buddha described it (fleeting mental and physical phenomena arising purely by conditions at one of the six doorways) how could we possibly consider conventional realities as being relevant to that same Dhamma? The answer is; we can't. Conventional understanding is quite harmless with regard to conventional matters, but it is dangerous with regard to the Dhamma. Any understanding of the world as (in the ultimate sense) a place with people performing conventional activities is a repudiation of the Dhamma. I am not saying there can be no such thing as Dhamma practice. In fact, practice is what Nina (along with Sarah, K Sujin and the others) is constantly urging us to do. Every skill requires practice. Learning to play the piano, for example, requires hitting the right note at the right time, over and over again. Dhamma practice is infinitely harder, but it is essentially the same. It means right understanding here and now, and it has to happen over and over and over again - lifetime after lifetime after lifetime. ------------- <. . .> H: > One also discovers, however, that the practice, if stuck with, will induce a degree of calming which not only eases the heart, but makes the investigation of what arises and ceases far more doable. -------------- There is a sutta (I don't have a reference but it has been quoted several times on DSG) in which a group of merchants ask the Buddha how they should organise their lives (in order to facilitate progress in the Dhamma). He tells them to think in the following way; "As for the Dhamma, profound, deep in meaning, concerned with anatta; from time to time we shall spend our days learning it." My first question is; why didn't the Buddha prescribe from time to time sitting quietly? More importantly, did he prescribe anything at all? Did he prescribe formal Dhamma-study, for example? Needless to say, the Buddha was not suggesting the merchants had any ultimate control over how they spent their time. (He was not repudiating everything he had said ever about the true nature of the world.) The merchants who heard the Buddha's words understood them. That was their right practice! If they had been learning piano it would have been one of those occasions on which they hit the right note at the right time. Ken H #62466 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for the request, you help me to consider this, and I look forward to your reflections. J: "I'd be interested to hear a little more about why you're thinking of entering into a formal teacher/student relationship. I don't see this kind of arrangement as being a part of the Theravadin tradition." Well, I'd never even thought of it that way, you know, that the formal student/teacher relationship is not a part of the Theravadin tradition. Please say more about this, Jon, I'm interested. I'll seem like a bit of a sheep I guess, but pretty well everyone I seem to interact with mentions his or her teacher or teachers at one point or another. So part of it is that I assumed this must be de rigeur. Secondly, I'd been watching in the local "scene" for any sign of a Theravadin bhikkhu to speak with from time to time about the Dhamma, preferrably one who knew Abhidhamma and paali and with whom I could learn. You know, if you get right down to it, I'm sort of isolated and want a way to structure my learning a lot more than I have been up to now. This is especially true of the paali, since I'd like to discuss points of grammar face-to-face: its quicker. J: "The question I'd be asking myself, in your position, is whether such an arrangement is really necessary or indeed most conducive to the further development of understanding, bearing in mind that it may in fact limit one's access to other sources of the Dhamma." I'd like to hear what you mean by "in your position," if you don't mind. I'd kind of thought it was a good thing to find a "formal" kalyaanamitta. I have access to you and the gang here, of course (and I must say that the quality of Dhamma scholarship going on here, with all the beautiful disagreements included, seems hard to match - well, I haven't found a match.) And I kind of thought that I was a guy with a whole lot to learn. May I ask your meaning when you suggest that "it may in fact limit one's access to other sources of the Dhamma?" The only one that comes to mind might be pa~n~na, because, as you mentioned or alluded to earlier the development of understanding does not require a "teacher." This is important to me, Jon, so please be as frank as you wish. I've been aloof from matters "spiritual" as if holding myself in abeyance for long enough and I don't wish to waste time. I've come to appreciate your thoughtful consideration of things and so, in this, please be a friend and tell me what you think. With loving kindness, Scott. #62467 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:23 pm Subject: relatives fishes leoaive Hi I have seen somewhere in Dhamma books about: relatives fishes, but it did not have much details. Now I am in Hawaii, I am looking at different water invironment and when I see fishes together I meditate on meaning: relatives fishes. The best I can come up to is: fishes in water together, where rocks are on a bottom and threes on top. And fishes are happy with sun and warm water without big movements. What would you see in words: relatives fishes? Leo #62468 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/14/06 9:08:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > I'd be interested to hear a little more about why you're thinking of > entering into a formal teacher/student relationship. I don't see this > kind of arrangement as being a part of the Theravadin tradition. =================== Where'd you get that from, Jon? What fo you think a kalyanamitta is, a buddy? And what of a preceptor for a monk? With metta, Howard #62469 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher upasaka_howard In a message dated 8/15/06 1:06:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > What fo you think a kalyanamitta is, a > buddy? ======================= "fo" = "do". Sorry for the typo. With metta, Howard #62470 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:27 pm Subject: Meeting with Han Tun in Bangkok jonoabb Hi All Have just finished a delightful breakfast with HanTun and Azita. HanTun is a very lively chap, with lots of interesting anecdotes, and of course a genuine interest in the Dhamma. I think his personality comes over quite well in the pic I've just added to the 'Members' photo album. We covered a multitude of topics (as usual - a few random points are listed below), and we're hoping HanTun will mention some of these in a message to the list. One recurring theme was the many fortuitous coincidences that have shaped his professional and personal life, and HanTun is a strong believer in doing kusala deeds as a way of bringing about good results in the present life (as indeed he has spelt out in his messages on list previously). A very pleasant morning. Now looking forward to discussion at the Foundation in the afternoon. Jon 3 grades/dimensions of anatta Control over rupas Controlling of mind Samatha in meditation, vipassana in daily life The uselessness of debate (vs. friendly discussion) Kamma and conditions 'Doing' as in the Vitakkasantanna Sutta Not being under a teacher (advantages of) #62471 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Scott) - > >In a message dated 8/14/06 9:08:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >jonabbott@... writes: > > > >>I'd be interested to hear a little more about why you're thinking of >>entering into a formal teacher/student relationship. I don't see this >>kind of arrangement as being a part of the Theravadin tradition. >> >> >=================== > Where'd you get that from, Jon? What do you think a kalyanamitta is, a >buddy? > I don't understand the term kalyanamitta to mean someone formally adopted as one's teacher, although I suppose it may include such a person. What's your understanding of the term? >And what of a preceptor for a monk? > > A monk's preceptor is someone with a specific role towards the monk, and to whom the monk owes specific duties, within the order. A monk may have as a kalyana mitta another monk or monks, or even a layperson. Jon #62472 From: bruce bogusz Date: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:52 pm Subject: Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do As Application Of Sati ( Tao/Buddhist physical exercises ) brucebogusz Greetings, I have had some problems with yoga due to my being basically "out-of-shape" but Tai-chi has great positive effects. I would suggest anyone interested in "tuning into ones body" to explore the wealth of information at http://www.thetaobums.com It has helped me tremendously in understanding things. It has expanded my horizons past buddhism. Bruce Daniel wrote: Hi Suan and all, Thank you for the intersting information. I am wondering about a system of "soft" exercises like yoga, or tai-chi. It seems that a person who practices mindfulness, should know his own body well, and therefore be able to develop a system of physical training which is useful just for one's own physical well being, and for one's own health. I wonder why I have not heard of a Theravada based system like that. Yours, Daniel --------------------- Posted by: "abhidhammika" suanluzaw@... abhidhammika Dear Daniel and all How are you? Daniel asked: "Are there any buddhist-based systems, perhaps physical practices in Theravada?" Burmese martial artists always base their profession on Buddhist moral principles. They won't teach you martial arts if you cannot keep Buddhist precepts - five precepts at the minimum level. You will also be required to practice mindfulness meditation (satipa.t.thaana) to move on to the advanced level. Any Asian martial artist begin to apply mindfulness practice to martial arts when they reach advanced level. As Bruce Lee explained in one of the documentaries about him, he went beyond the form of martial arts he had learnt, and trained himself to be alert and mindful at all time in his execution of movements. The Buddha said the following in Section 375, Mahaasatipat.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaayo, "yathaa yathaa vaa panassa kaayo pa.nihito hoti, tathaa tathaa nam pajaanaati. "He is well aware of whatever positioning his body is in." If one can apply the above Theravada teaching of the Buddha to the physical practices such as martial arts, then one will become invincible and unreachable by one's assailants. <...> #62473 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: I'm familiar with the simile given in the suttas of metta being like a mother's love for her child. But I don't think that helps much in being able to distinguish whether the present mindstate is the kusala one of metta or the akusala one of the near enemy of metta, namely, selfish affection (or subtle attachment). James: Well, Jon, then we can't really have much of a discussion. You state that it is important to know the characteristics of metta of the present moment so that it can be developed. I tell you how the suttas describe its characteristic and you say that that description doesn't help you. So, what am I to do? Do you have a better description of the characteristics of metta? If we can't reach some kind of agreement about the characteristics of metta then we can't really discuss it. Metta, James #62474 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Addiction to quietness?? buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi James and Howard, > > To be fair to Nina, she did say: "It is felt by some people that, . ." > and: "It may seem that, . . ." Only then did she say: "However, at > such moments there is bound to be clinging to quietness." So of course > Nina knows that formal meditation is not the same thing to all people > at all times. Well, that would be fair. I would suppose that perhaps there is the off chance that someone becomes attached to quietness. However, she doesn't present the other possibility in her book. She doesn't state the possibility that quietness is of benefit to meditation. So, of course, the general reader is going to take her statements the way I did: that most people who attend silent meditation retreats do it because they are attached to the quietness. Goodness, couldn't they just go to the library?? ;-)) As I stated, most of those who attend meditation retreats, at the beginning, don't really enjoy the quietness. Actually, it is quite maddening and irritating because they have to confront their defilements for the first time without distractions. > > --------- > J: > Nina, have you ever been on a silent meditation retreat? > --------- > > As I recall Nina's previous comments, she has never believed in formal > Buddhist meditation. Then she is not qualified to write about it. However, others who now think the same way she > does have had extensive experience with it. I suspect Sarah, for > example, has put in more hours than the rest of us combined. So we > can't assume, 'If they had tried it, they wouldn't think the way they > do.' You see, I read her book and I see statements about those attending silent meditation retreats becoming attached to the silence. As a reader, I need to know how Nina has come to that conclusion. If she hasn't experienced a silent retreat herself, then she doesn't speak from personal experience. If she can't quote where the Buddha taught that silence is addictive, then she doesn't speak from authority. So, now, you are basically telling me that she speaks from heresay. Some other people told her that the silence at meditation retreats is addictive, so now she writes that up in her book as fact. Heresay is the weakest type of support and isn't even allowed in courts of law. As for Sarah meditating more than all of us combined, don't you think that is a bit of hyperbole? And yes, I am aware of the "reformed meditators" in this group. Frankly, I don't know why that fact is brought out so often- as if it really proves something. During the Buddha's time, and today, there were monks who disrobed. They were/are, in essence, "reformed monks". Did they disrobe because the Buddha's teaching is wrong and there is no benefit to being a monk? No, they disrobed because of different reasons which probably boiled down to the fact that they just couldn't hack it. When you tell the group about Sarah, or yourself, who used to meditate so much and then decided to stop, I don't see a story of some kind of miracle transformation. I see the story of some people who, no offense, just couldn't hack it. Metta, James #62475 From: han tun Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:17 am Subject: Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (1) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lodewijk, and others, I had a wonderful breakfast with Jon, Sarah, and Azita at Peninsula Hotel, Bangkok on 15 August 2006. Jon and Sarah are very sweet, understanding and lovable persons, and Azita also is very lively. It has been a very useful meeting and Jon has outlined what we have talked. I will post some of them one subject matter at a time. We talked about no-Nina no-Lodewijk theme and I reiterated my views, which are the same as Lodewijk’s views, in that absolute truth and conventional truth go hand in hand; and while understanding the nature of non-self, one needs to radiate metta and compassion to others. I became also an instant admirer of James and I like his letter to you quoting Channa sutta. While on this subject, I told Jon and Sarah how I understand anattaa. I arbitrarily divide it into three dimensions. (1) The first dimension is in connection with three characteristics of existence. All conditioned things are anicca. Because of anicca, they are dukkha. Because we cannot stop anicca and dukkha, it is anattaa. {Sarah added: ‘provided we actually see the three characteristics!’] (2) The second dimension is that, as we cannot ‘control’ our five aggregates it is anattaa. (Sarah’s face lit up! She let me confirm that I said ‘no control’. Because I wrote previously that we can control our five aggregates to some extent! {:>)) (3) The third dimension is no-Jon, no-Sarah, no-Han Tun, and so it is anattaa. I said this third dimension is difficult to really absorbed into one’s mind. I had experienced this kind of feeling when I contemplated on vedana when I was suffering from intestinal obstruction with severe pain, and when I had bronchial asthma with difficulty in breathing. During those times I told myself, it was not Han Tun who suffered the pain but it was the vedana cetasika. There was no-Han Tun to suffer. When I contemplated that way, the pain was still there but I could bear the pain. “The body hurts but not the mind.” Sarah asked me what is the difference between the second and third. I said in the second dimension, there may still be the “my” – I cannot control “my” five aggregates; whereas in the third dimension there is no “I”, no “mine.” Well, the above is my arbitrary classification of anattaa without any canonical support. As such, you will not find this in the books! Respectfully, Han Dear Jon, thank you very much for putting my photo in Members' Photo Album. You are an expert photographer, apart from other superlative adjectives applicable to you! #62476 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:06 am Subject: Re: relatives fishes corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > > Hi > > I have seen somewhere in Dhamma books about: relatives fishes, but it > did not have much details. Now I am in Hawaii, I am looking at > different water invironment and when I see fishes together I meditate > on meaning: relatives fishes. The best I can come up to is: fishes in > water together, where rocks are on a bottom and threes on top. And > fishes are happy with sun and warm water without big movements. > What would you see in words: relatives fishes? Hi Leo Maybe you remember one of the Jataka stories? The Bodhisatta was born as a big fish in a pond in India. There was a bad drought and the pond was drying up. The fish were eating one another and the crows were catching the fish in the shallow water. But the Bodhisatta-fish refrained from killing or harming other creatures and had compassion for all the other suffering creatures. Because of his wholesomeness, he was able to convince the rain god to break the drought. "Relieve the suffering of my relatives!" he asked. The rain god sent a storm. And what about the fisherman simile from the Samyutta Nikaya? A fisherman baits a hook and casts it into the water. A fish swallows it and meets with disaster. The Buddha said there are 6 hooks in the world that bring disaster to living beings: sensually enticing forms cognisable by the eye; sounds cognisable by the ear; tastes cognisable by the tongue; smells cognisable by the nose; sensations cognisable by the body-sense; mental phenomena cognisable by the mind. I think there's something in that for all of us. Don't you? Happy snorkelling! Andrew #62477 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/15/06 2:10:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Where'd you get that from, Jon? What do you think a kalyanamitta is, a > > >buddy? > > > > I don't understand the term kalyanamitta to mean someone formally > adopted as one's teacher, although I suppose it may include such a > person. What's your understanding of the term? > > >And what of a preceptor for a monk? > > > > > > A monk's preceptor is someone with a specific role towards the monk, and > to whom the monk owes specific duties, within the order. A monk may > have as a kalyana mitta another monk or monks, or even a layperson. > > Jon > > ========================= I understand a kalyanamitta to be one "further along" in the Dhamma [I leave that for each of us to determine how that phrase is to be understood] whom one takes as a teacher or guide (officially or less formally). I would imagine many here think of Khun Sujin in such a way. With metta, Howard #62478 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, [lots of typos - apologies in advance, no time to check] --- han tun wrote: > I had a wonderful breakfast with Jon, Sarah, and Azita > at Peninsula Hotel, Bangkok on 15 August 2006. .... Firstly, thank you for taking the time to travel across Bangkok to join us, especially at this precious time of your daughter's visit. (Han's daughter is visiting him and his wife from the States which is only possible about every 5 yrs and she only arrived a couple of days ago). Secondly, I'd like to add that it was a delight for us all and the time went by very quickly - too quickly! I had spoken to Han on the phone the day before and had been struck by his lively, cheerful and strong voice - not that of an elderly man at all. In person, as Jon mentioned, it was the same. (Whereas I had expected James to be out-going, talkative and full of colourful anecdotes and Han to be more subdued, quiet and serious, rather like Jon -- it was the reverse:-)). I was interested to hear about Han's upbringing as a Buddhist before the occupation of Burma during the war when he was 15. When he was young, lay people like his family were devout Buddhists, regularly visiting and supporting the temples, but never following meditation practices. At this time he joined the very secret and dangerous American secret service in Burma (the pre-cursor of the CIA) and his professional and personal history unfolded in a rather unusual manner. With the war, he lost all interest in the Dhamma and only returned to the teachings in earnest only more than 50 years later, giving up alcohol at the same time in one 'swoop'. Han hasn't studied under a teacher, but has read, studied and listened to tapes by himself and we discussed some of the advantages of this approach. Clearly he's been reading, studying and considering a lot during the last 10 years and what he learnt as a child has not been forgotten at all. He can consider as he likes and as he said, he can adopt what he reads for his own practice. In between the various anecdotes, we touched on some serious topics, but laughed about our differences, agreed that it doesn't matter what others think and there's no point in getting upset when different viewpoints are put forward. As he said, sometimes it's best just to accept the different ideas. I liked Han's comments on the difference between friendly discussion and debate - so perhaps, Han, you can add these to your series:-). Ah, yes - the role of mana and dosa in this regard. I think the first controversial topic was 'controlling the mind' and 'filetering out bad thoughts' and then there was the 'blank mind'.... Lots on kusala and akusala vipaka and complex conditions - situations vs moments in terms of vipaka. Han's practice of anapanasati and the rebel again:-) Samatha in meditation and vipassana in daily life which I'm sure Han will elaborate on. Doing, trying and a post of James' (ending with the 4 right efforts) which Han had liked - oh yes, the one which starts with James' rather good summary of a discussion with K.Sujin in India.....and the replies. Han came with more support for his viewpoint by way of the Vitakkasantana Sutta (Han, sometime see more on this sutta under 'V' in U.P.s)and also the Kitagiiri Sutta. Those clenched teeth have a way of coming up in discussions a lot. On anatta, Han's already expanding on his comments. On a previous discussion with Nina and I on attavaadupadaana (apologies for all the typos in this post, Han), he could'nt accept that it had a wider meaning than sakaaya-ditthi, so I brought this up again in the afternoon with KS - will add more another time. Control - well as Han indicated, there seemed to be a few conflicting comments:-) no control, but control over rupas, over kammajarupas by doing good things....hmm.... Assessing when we were just using conventional language and when the idea of 'self doing' was really meant was not so easy in one meeting. It takes time to really understand different viewpoints as James has said. Doing good, leading to good results by way of meditation, following the precepts and the brahma viharas......clearly Han's way leads to his having a very relaxed and light outlook without any expectations of particular results and a happy family at the reformed character:-). I'll look forward to our next get-together sometime. Meanwhile, I'm delighted to see you'll be elaborating on the topics in a series, Han. I know Nina, Lodewijk and others will welcome these. I'm rather tired now and on a strange computer, so I apologise if I've said anything amiss. Meanwhile, I won't mind at all if any of my comments are reported or even mis-reported in your summaries. It's hard to recall the details after a live meeting. We get spoilt here in being able to check past comments. And yes, James, it seems that like Lodewijk, Han is another fan of your posts:-)) Perhaps it's the fellow rebel....?? Metta, Sarah p.s i'd hoped to report a little from the afternoon discussions with KS, but it'll have to be another time. Also, very enjoyable with many topics arising from some DSG discussions, like the one mentioned above with Han, also recent nimitta, samdhi, jhana and ceto-vimutti ones as well as my on-going one with Kel on prior attainments. Tomorrow is a full day too. Today, K.Sujin started off by stressing how she considers 'one's own language' as being the best way for consideration and discussion. It was a little different....people can talk about 'anatta, anatta, anatta' or use other Pali terms, but by expressing them and considering further in their own languages, they can see whether they really understand or are just repeating terms. This is why she often asks us what we mean when we bring up various terms such as sakaaya ditthi, ceto vimutti and so on. what does it mean at this very moment. What is atta now? It's been a great day for further considering and reflection for me. Never easy 'on the spot', but it's all been so light, pleasant and friendly.... thanks to all the kalyana mittas.... Metta, Sarah p.s Scott, Howard and all- i'm interested to read the further discussions on kalyana mittas. perhaps Han will inclued his comments on this too as I know he considers it. ================ Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3) #62479 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:40 am Subject: Eye of Wisdom buddhatrue Hi Nina, As I said before, I have been enjoying your book `The Buddha's Path'. I posted once about something I questioned, but now I want to quote something I really liked: "The `eye of wisdom' which sees impermanence is different from a microscope through which one watches the change of the smallest physical units. The wisdom which directly realizes the momentary impermanence of phenomena eventually leads to detachment." Very nicely stated! It is possible for many people to see impermanence, especially scientists, but it is only with the `eye of wisdom' that one truly sees impermanence. You gave me goose bumps! ;- )) Metta, James #62480 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi James, ---------- J: > I would suppose that perhaps there is the off chance that someone becomes attached to quietness. However, she doesn't present the other possibility in her book. She doesn't state the possibility that quietness is of benefit to meditation. ---------- I wouldn't state that possibility either - not if I was writing about vipassana meditation (vipassana-bhavana). For that kind of meditation, the idea that some environments are more suitable than others is just plain wrong! --------------------- J: > So, of course, the general reader is going to take her statements the way I did: that most people who attend silent meditation retreats do it because they are attached to the quietness. Goodness, couldn't they just go to the library?? ;-)) --------------------- Can we say they are attached to the idea of having a quiet, unperturbed mind? I don't think it is the quiet surroundings that attract them. If that were the case then, as you say, they would be addicted to libraries. -------------------------- J: > As I stated, most of those who attend meditation retreats, at the beginning, don't really enjoy the quietness. Actually, it is quite maddening and irritating because they have to confront their defilements for the first time without distractions. -------------------------- To my mind, that sort of talk belongs in New Age self-improvement courses. I am happy to know it has nothing to do with the Dhamma. ----------------- KH: > > As I recall Nina's previous comments, she has never believed in formal Buddhist meditation. > > J: > Then she is not qualified to write about it. ----------------- What you have written there might sound right at a very superficial level, but if you think about it you will see it is plain nonsense. -------------------------------- J: > You see, I read her book and I see statements about those attending silent meditation retreats becoming attached to the silence. As a reader, I need to know how Nina has come to that conclusion. If she hasn't experienced a silent retreat herself, then she doesn't speak from personal experience. If she can't quote where the Buddha taught that silence is addictive, then she doesn't speak from authority. So, now, you are basically telling me that she speaks from heresay. Some other people told her that the silence at meditation retreats is addictive, so now she writes that up in her book as fact. Heresay is the weakest type of support and isn't even allowed in courts of law. ---------------------------------- I think you are making too much of the reference to silence. You have seized on it for some reason - probably because it is easy to argue against. But, as I understand the arguments against formal meditation, they are mainly about desire for results, attachment to the idea of becoming a wonderful person and that sort of thing. They are only partly, if at all, about attachment to quiet surroundings. ------------------------ J: > As for Sarah meditating more than all of us combined, don't you think that is a bit of hyperbole? ------------------------ No I don't. (Not that it matters.) If you talk to her about it, you will find that she once practised meditation far more determindly than anyone else you know. Certainly more than anyone else I know! ------------------------------------ J: > And yes, I am aware of the "reformed meditators" in this group. Frankly, I don't know why that fact is brought out so often- as if it really proves something. ------------------------------------ It is only rarely brought up. When it is brought up it is because someone has said that we wouldn't knock meditation "if we had tried it." ------------ J: > <. . .> When you tell the group about Sarah, or yourself, who used to meditate so much and then decided to stop, I don't see a story of some kind of miracle transformation. I see the story of some people who, no offense, just couldn't hack it. ------------- No offence taken, but can you see any possibility that you might be wrong? Can you see that, maybe, we are not just covering up for some alleged failure; maybe we genuinely believe the Buddha did not teach formal meditation? Ken H #62481 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:21 am Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness?? buddhatrue Hi Ken, Ken: Can you see that, maybe, we are not just covering up for some alleged failure; maybe we genuinely believe the Buddha did not teach formal meditation? James: Ken, we all live in delusion. We don't always know why we do or think things. Some people genuinely believe that the Buddha didn't teach rebirth. They believe that whenever he spoke of rebirth he was being metaphorical. Why do they believe this? They believe this because they don't want to accept the reality of rebirth. Ken, you are in the same boat. You don't believe that the Buddha taught formal meditation. You believe that whenever he spoke of meditation he was describing rather than prescribing a practice. Why do you believe this? You believe this because you don't want to accept the reality of meditation. I don't know what else to tell you. I guess you can just continue to think what you want. Metta, James #62482 From: connie Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:31 am Subject: Re: black mail nichiconn Dear Scott, no expectation, no delay. on the same hand, i am inclined to forgetfulness and scattered focus & if you (feel obliged to) follow my posts :) we might both be hopeless(ly lost & out of control) concerning anything, like when is the teacher coming or sending for me? for surely, we believe in destinations. Nevertheless, a guide to your quest there may be, if I may be so: <> if the dude(tte) can't dance, get off the floor (gleaming or) otherwise, (lettuce on ambrosia, thank you please!) prepare to be swept away. <> as sarah suggests, formal laundry practice is a washout. permanent press is: a)visible object b)typecasting c)tipitaka c. the basic texts... study faithfully and give up b. ask any dramaqueen. a. nama or rupa? easy one, from the books - but in the eye of the beholder? "...whatever appears now is the nimitta of the arising and falling away of reality" (dsg refrain) <> {intro, cr - finishing which is further than i might get!} worsted, you say. with knitted brows? i wish i would never speak (as a fool) but ['yakkha, yakkha' ('tsing-tsing, sway');] meet 'utter' failure. see you at recess, (looking forward to your pali cribsheets) connie "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, but he still only has one eye." - Johan Cruyff (1947); Dutch footballer and coach. #62483 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:35 am Subject: Badlands scottduncan2 I'm off to the Badlands for a couple of days. I'll check in again on Thursday night. (Google Dinosaur Provincial Park, Alberta if curious.) Scott. #62484 From: connie Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:14 pm Subject: terms of endearment nichiconn w/all due formalities: udaana cy v1: Aloof (vuupaka.t.tho): aloof in both body and mind from those sense-desires that are object-based and those sense-desires that are (mental) defilements. Ardent (aataapii): possessing ardour by way of ardour in the form of bodily and mental energy; it is ardour, energy, since it causes the defilments to burn(aataapeti). Dedicated (pahitatto): committed (pesitatto), with his whole existence addressed (to his goal) (vissa.t.thattabhaavo) by way of an absence of regard for either body or life; or alternatively with his (whole) heart committed (pesitacitto) to (the attainment of) nibbaana. Diligent (appamatto): not relinquishing mindfulness with respect to his meditation subject. Silence (tu.nhiibhaavo): non-talking in the form of samatha and vipassanaa meditation. Tamed (danta.m): tamed through the utmost taming, where the faculties are concerned, by way of the six-limbed equanimity. *cp vsm 160 With faculties restrained (yatindriyo): he is one with faculties restrained by way of control, on account of the non-occurance of covetousness and so on, of the six faculties of eye and so forth; in this way it is the virtue that is restraint of the faculties that is spoken of. who had emerged, when the time limit was up, from fruition-attainment that is reckoned as seclustion on account of (its consisting in) the withdrawing of the mind from this and that object, such as visible forms and so on. lacking familiarity, connie #62485 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:44 pm Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi James, ----------- J: > Ken, we all live in delusion. We don't always know why we do or think things. Some people genuinely believe that the Buddha didn't teach rebirth. They believe that whenever he spoke of rebirth he was being metaphorical. Why do they believe this? They believe this because they don't want to accept the reality of rebirth. -------------- I agree; people believe what they want to believe. That is why discussions about Dhamma are a waste of time if they are about personal, idiosyncratic, beliefs. Let's discuss the texts! ----------------------- J: > Ken, you are in the same boat. You don't believe that the Buddha taught formal meditation. You believe that whenever he spoke of meditation he was describing rather than prescribing a practice. Why do you believe this? You believe this because you don't want to accept the reality of meditation. ------------------------- This is the kind of thing Phil was objecting to recently. Allegations are made to the effect that DSG people are just giving their personal, uncorroborated "take" on the Dhamma. In response, there are exhaustive, scholarly explanations proving, conclusively, that those so-called personal takes are, in fact, contained in the original texts. The discussion dies down. Occasionally there is even a "OK, you were right, it is in the texts." But, after a while, the exact same allegations surface again - as if the discussions had never happened!!!! ------------------------------------ J: > I don't know what else to tell you. I guess you can just continue to think what you want. ------------------------------------ No, no: please talk to me about the Theravada texts. As I have told you before, I am not interested in anything you have discovered through your personal meditation experiences or through ESP. But I am very interested in the Dhamma as contained in the Pali Canon and ancient commentaries. Ken H #62486 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:51 pm Subject: Samadhi Sutta- another one! matheesha333 I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html #62487 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:11 pm Subject: Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 matheesha333 SN 35.99 Samadhi Sutta Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S iv 80 CDB ii 1181 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html #62488 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness?? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 8/15/06 5:47:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > ----------------------- > J: >Ken, you are in the same boat. You don't believe that the Buddha > taught formal meditation. You believe that whenever he spoke of > meditation he was describing rather than prescribing a practice. > Why do you believe this? You believe this because you don't want to > accept the reality of meditation. > ------------------------- > > This is the kind of thing Phil was objecting to recently. Allegations > are made to the effect that DSG people are just giving their personal, > uncorroborated "take" on the Dhamma. In response, there are > exhaustive, scholarly explanations proving, conclusively, that those > so-called personal takes are, in fact, contained in the original > texts. The discussion dies down. Occasionally there is even a "OK, > you were right, it is in the texts." But, after a while, the exact > same allegations surface again - as if the discussions had never > happened!!!! > > ------------------------------------ > J: >I don't know what else to tell you. I guess you can just > continue to think what you want. > ------------------------------------ > > No, no: please talk to me about the Theravada texts. As I have told > you before, I am not interested in anything you have discovered > through your personal meditation experiences or through ESP. But I am > very interested in the Dhamma as contained in the Pali Canon and > ancient commentaries. > ======================== Ken, are you actually maintaining that the Theravada texts do not teach meditation? That they teach against meditating? You maintain that was Buddhaghosa's reporting? If I believed it were so that Therevada taught a no-meditation doctrine, I'd become a Mahayanist in a split second! Fortunately, one need only look at the Visuddhimagga to see that is not so! With metta, Howard #62489 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness?? kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, Howard and James, Thanks for an opening as I'm armed with Visuddhimagga today. > > Ken: No, no: please talk to me about the Theravada texts. > Howard: Fortunately, one need only look > at the Visuddhimagga to see that is not so! III 27 [Development in Brief] The method of developing the kind of concentrationa ssociated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds of mundane and supramundane', etc. is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed. 28. But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified int he way already stated. He should server any of the ten impediments that he may have. He should then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that he should avoid a monastery unfavorable to the development of conentrationi and go to live in one that is favorable. Then he should server the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the directions for development. This is in brief. Kel: I'll add details of the impediments and others in subsequent posts. - Kel #62490 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:53 pm Subject: Ten Impediments to sever kelvin_lwin Vsm III 29: A dwelling, family and gain, A class and building too as fith, And travel, kin, affliction, books And supernormal powers: ten. Dwelling: 30. Herein, a single inner room or a single hut or a whole monastery for the Community is called a dwelling. This is not an impediment for everyone. It is an impediment only for anyone whose mind is exercised about the building, etc., that goes on there. or who has many belongings stored there, or whose mind is caught up by some business connected with it. For any other it is not an impediment. Family: 35. Family means a family consisting of relatives or of supporters. For even a family consisting of supporters is an impediment for someone who lives in close associationw ith it in the way beginning 'He is please when they are pleased' and who does not even go to a neighbouring monastery to hear the Dhamma without members of the family. Gains: 43: Gain is the for requisites. How are they an impediments" Wherever a meritorious bhikkhu goes, people give him a large supply of requisites. With giving blessings to them and teaching them the Dhamma he gets no chance to do the ascetic's duties. From sunrise till the first watch of the night he never breaks his association with people. Again, even at dawn, alsm-food eaters fond of opulence come and say, ' Venerable sir, such and such a man lay follower, woman lay follwer, friend, friend's daughter, wants to see you', and being ready to go, he replies' 'Take the bowl and robe, friend'. So he is always on the alert. Thus these requisites are an impediment for him. He should leave his group and wander by himself where he is not known. This is the way his impediment is severed. Class: 44: Class is a class (group of students of suttas or students of Abhidhamma. If with the group's instruction and questioning he ges no opportunity for the ascetic's duties, then the group is an impediment for him. He should sever that impediment in his way: if those bhikkhus have already acquired the main part and little still remains, he should finish that off and then go to the forest. If they have only acquired little and much still remains, he should, without travelling more than a league, approach another instructor of a class within the radius of a league and say, 'Help these venerable ones with instruction, etc.' . If he does not find anyone in this way, he should take leave of the class, saying 'I have a task to see to, friends; go where it suits you', and he should do his own work. Building: 45: Building(kamma) is a new building work (nava-kamma). Since one engaged in this must know about what [material] have and has not been got by carpenters, etc. and must see about what has and has not been done, it is always an impediment. It should be severed in this way. If little remains it should be compelted, If much remains, it should be handed over to the Community or to bhikkhus who are entrusted with the Commuity's affairs, if it is a new building for the Communityl or if it is for himself. it should be handed over to those whom he entrusts with his own affairs, but if these are not available, he should reqlinquish it to the Community and depart. Travel: 46: Travel is going on a journey. If someone is expected to give the going forth somewhere else, or if someone requisite is obtainable there and he cannot rest content without getting it [that will be an impediment; for] even if he goes into the forest to do the ascetic's duties, he will find it hard to get rid of thoughts about the joureny. So one in this position should apply himself to the ascetic's duties after he has done the journey and transcated the business. Kin: 47: Kin in the case of the monastery means teacher, preceptor, coresident, pupile, those with the same preceptor as oneself and those with the same teacher as oneself and in the case of the house it means mother, father, brother and so on. When they are sick they are an impediment for him. Therefore that impediment should be severed by curing them with nursing. Affliction: 50: Affliction is any kind of illness. It is an impediment when it is actually affliciting; therefore it should be severed by treatment with medicine. But if it is not cured after taking medicine for a few days, then the ascetic's duties should be done after apostrophizing one's person in this way: 'I am not your slave, or your hireling. I have come to suffering through maintaining you through the beginningless round of rebirths'. Books: 51: Books mean responsibility for the scriptures. That is an impediment only for one who is constantly busy with recitations, etc., but not for others. here are releveant stores. The Elder Revata, it seems, the Majjhima reciter, went to the Elder Revata, the dweller in Malaya and asked him for a emditation subject. The elder asked him, 'How are you in the scriptures, friend"' -- 'I am studying the Majjhima, venerable sir'. 'The Majjhima is a hard responsibility, friend. When a man is still learning the First Fifty by heart, he is faced with the Middle Fifity; and when he is still learning that by heart, he is facted with the last Fifity. How can you take up a meditation subject" -- 'Venerable sir, when I have taken a meditation subject from you, I shall not look at the scriptures again'. he took the meditation subject and doing no recitation for ninteen years, he reached Arahantship in the twetieth year. He told bhikkhus who came from recitation: 'I have not look at the scriptures for twenty years, friends, yet I am familiar with them. You may begin'. And from beginning to end he had no hestitation even over a single syllable. 53. .... There is an elder named Maha-Dhammarakkhita living in the Tuladhaarapabbata Monastery in the Rohana country beyond the River. He knows all the scriptures. Go to him'. Saying Good, venerable sir, he paid homage to the elder. He went with five hundread bhikkhus to the Elder maha-Dhammarakkhita, and when he paid homage to him, he sat down. The elder asked, 'Why have you come"'. -- 'To hear the Dhamma, venerable sir'. -- 'Friend Abhaya, they ask me about the Digha and Majjhima from time to time, but I have not look at others for thirty years. Still you may repeat them in my presence by night, and I shall explain them to you buy day'. he said, 'Good, venerable sir', and he acted accordingly. 54: The inhabitants of the vollage had a large pvailion built at the door of his dwelling, and they came daily to hear the Dhamma. Explaining by day what had been repeated by night, the Elder [Dhammarakkhita] eventually completed the instruction. Then he sat down on the mat on the ground before the Elder Abhaya and said, 'Friend, explain a meditation subject to me'. -- 'What are you saying, venerable sir, have I not heard it all from you? What can I explain to you that youdo not already know"' The senior elder said, 'This path is different for one who has actually travelled by it'. 55: The Elder Abhaya was the, it seems, a stream-enterer. When the Elder ABhaya had given his teacher a meditation subject, he returned to Anuradhapura. Later, while he was expounding the Dhamma in the Brazen Palace, he heard that the elder had attained nibbana. On hearing this, he said, 'Bring me [my] robe, friends'. Then he put on the robe and said, 'The Arahant path befits our teacher, friends. Our teacher was a true throughbred. He sat down on a mat before his own Dhamma pupil and said 'Explain a meditation subject to me". The Arahat path befits our teacher, friends'. For such as these, books are no impediment. Supernormal powers: 56: Supernormal powers are the supernormal powers of the ordinary man. They are hard to maintain, like a prone infant or like young corn, and the slightest thing breaks them. But they are an impediment for insight, not for concentration, since they are obtainable through concentration. So the supernormal powers are an impediment that should be severed by one who seeks insight; the others are impediments to be severed by one who seeks concentration. #62491 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:00 pm Subject: Generally useful meditation subjects kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, James and Jon Vsm III, 57 Herein, lovingkindness towards the Community of Bhikkhus, etc., and also mindfulness of death are what are called generally useful meditation subjects. Some say perception of foulness, too. 58. When a bhikkhu takes up a meditation subject, he should first develop lovingkindness towards the Community of Bhikkhus within the boundary, limiting it at first [ to 'all bhikkhus in this monastery'], in this way: 'May they be happy and free from affliction'. Then he should develop it towards all deities within the boundary. Then towards all the principal people in the village that is his alms resort; then to [all human beings there and to] all living beings dependent on the human beings. With lovingkindness towards the Community of Bhikkhus he produces kindliness in his coresidents; then they are easy for him to live with. With lovingkindness towards the deities within the boundary he is protected by kindly deities with lawful protection. With lovingkindess towards the pricipal people in the village that is his alms resort his requiisites are protected by well-disposed principal people with lawful protection. With lovingkindness to all human begings there he goes about without incurring their dislike since they trust him. With lovingkindess to all living beings he can wander unhindered everywhere. With mindfulness of death, thinking 'I have go to die', he gives up improper search and with a growing sense of urgency he comes to live without attachment. When his mind is familiar with the perception of foulness, then even divine objects do not tempt his mind to greed. 59. So these are called generally useful and they are called meditation subjects since they are needed generally and desirable owing to their great helpfulness and since they are subjects for the meditation work intended. #62492 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:17 pm Subject: A good friend kelvin_lwin Hi Jon, Howard, Scott and all (from Teacher thread) Vsm III 61 The good friend is one who posses such special qualities as these: 'He is revered and dearly loved, And one who speaks and suffers speech; The speech he uters is profound, He does not urge without a reason' and so on. He is wholly solicitous of welfare and partial to progress. 62. Because of the words beginning, 'Ananda, it is owing to my being a good friend to them that living beings subject to birth are freed from birth', it is only the Fully Enlightened One who possesses all the aspects of the good friends. Since that is so, while he is available only a meditation subject taken in the Blesssed One's presence is well taken. But after his final attainment of nibbana, it is proper to take it from any one of the eighty great disciples still living. When they are no more available, one who wants to take a particular meditation subject should take it from someone with cankers destroyed, who has, by means of that particular meditation subject, produced the fourfold and fivefold jhana and has reached the destruction of cankers by augmenting insight that had that jhana as its proximate cause. 63. But how them, does someone with cankers destroyed declare himself thus: 'I am one whose cankers are destroyed'? Why not? He declares himself when he knows that his instructions will be carried out. Did not the Elder Assagutta spread out his leather mat in the air and sitting cross-legged on it explain a meditation subject to a bhikkhu who was starting his own meditation subject, because he knew that that bhikkhu was one who would carry out his instructions for the meditation subject? 64. So if someone with cankers destroyed is available, that is good. If not, then one should take it from a non-returner, a once- returner, a stream-enterer, an ordinary man who has obtained jhana, one who knows three Pitakas, one who knows one Pitaka, in descending order [according as available]. If not even one who knows one Pitaka is available, then it should be taken from one who is familiar with one Collection together with its commentary and one who is himself conscientious. For a teacher such as this, who knows the texts, guards the hiertage, and protects the tradition, will follow the teachers' opinion rather than his own. Hence the Ancient Elders said three times, 'One who is conscientious will guard it'. 65. Now thoese beginning with one whose cankers are destroyed, mentioned above, will describe only the the path they have themselves reached. But with a learned man, his instructions and his answers to questions are purified by his having approached such and such teachers, and so he will explain a meditation subject showing a broad track, like a big elephant going through a stretch of jungle, he will select suttas and reasons from here and there, adding [explanations of] what is suitable and unsuitable. So a meditation subject should be taken by approaching the good friend such as this, the giver of a meditation subject and by doing all duties to him. 71. Why so many words? All should be done as prescribed by the Blessed One in the Khandhakas as the right duties in the passage beginning: 'Bhikkhus, a pupil should perform the duties to the teacher rightly. Herein, this is the right performance of duties, he should rise early; removing his sandals and arranging his robe on one shoulder, he should give the tooth-sticks and the mouth-washing water, and he should prepare the seat. If there is rice gruel, he should wash the dish and bring the rice gruel'. 72. To please the teacher by perfection in the duties he should pay homage in the evening, and he should leave when dismissed with the words 'You may go'. When the teacher asks him 'Why have you come?', he can explain the reason for his coming. If he does not ask but agrees to the duties being done, then after ten days or a forthnight have gone by he should make an opportunity by staying back one day at athe time of his dismissal, and announcing the reason for his coming; or he should go at an unaccustomed time and when asked 'What have you come for?', he can accounce it. 73. If the teacher says 'Come in the morning', he should do so. But if his stomach burns with a bile affliction at that hour, of if his food does not get disgested owning to sluggish digestive heat, or if some other ailment affflicts him, he should let it be known, and proposing a time that suits himself, he should come at that time. For if a meditation subject is expounded at an inconvenient time, one cannot give attention. This is the detailed explanation of the words 'approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject'. #62493 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:32 pm Subject: Seven (un)suitable things kelvin_lwin Vsm IV 36-41 1 Herein, an abode is unsuitable if, while he lives in it, the unarisen sign does not arise in him or is lost when it arises, and where unestablished mindfulness fails to become established and the unconcentrate mind fails to become concentrated. That is suitable in which the sign arises and becomes confirmed, in which mindfulness becomes established and the mind becomes concentrated, as in the Elder Padhaniya-Tissa, resident at Nagapabbata. So if a monastery has many adbodes he can try them one by one, living in each for three days, and stay on where his mind becomes unified. For it was due to suitability of abode that five hundread bhikkhus reached ARahantship while still dwelling in the Lesser naga Cave in Tambapanni Island after apprehending their meditation subject there. But there is no counting the stream-entereres who have reach Arahantship there after reaching the noble plan elsewhere. So too int he monastery of Cittalapabbata, and others. 2. An alms-resort village lying to the north or south of the lodging, not too far, within one kosa and a half, and where alms food is easily obtained, is suitable, The opposite kind is unsuitable. 3. Speech: that included in the thirty-two kinds of aimless talk is unsuitable; for it leads to the disappearance of the sign. But talk based on the ten examples of talk is suitable, though even that should be discussed with moderation. 4. Person: one not given to aimless talk, who has the special qualities of virtue, etc., by acquaintanceship with whome the unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated or the concentrated mind becomes more so, is suitable. one who is much concerned with his body, who is addicted to aimless talk, is unsuitable; for he only creates distrubances, like muddy water added to a clear water. And it was owing to one such as this that the attainments of the young bhikkhu who lived in Kotapabbata vanished, not to mention the sign. 5. Food: sweet food suits one, sour food another. 6. Climate: a cool climate suits one, a warm one another. So when he finds that by using certain food or by living in a certain climate he is comfortable, or his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated or his concentrated mind becomes moer so, then that food or that climate is suitable. Any other food or climate is unsuitable. 7. Postures: walk suits one; standing or sitting or lying down suits another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and that posture is suitable in which his unconcentrate mind becomes concentrated or his concentrated mind cbecomes more so. Any other should be understood as unsuitable. So he should avoid the seven unsuitable kinds and cultivate the suitable. For when he practises in this way, assidusouly cultivating the sign, then 'he need not wait too long until absorption shall his wish fulfil'. #62494 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:54 pm Subject: Eighteen Faults of a Monastery kelvin_lwin Vism IV, 3-18 1. Firstly, people with varying aims collect in a large monastery. They conflict with each other and so neglect the duties. The enlightenment-tree terraces, etc., remains unswept, the water for drinking and washing is not set out. So if he thinks 'I shall go to the alms-resort village for alms' and take his bowl and robe and sets out, perhaps he sees that the duties have not been done or that a drinking-water pot is empty, and so the duty has to be done by him unexpectedly. Drinking water must be maintained. By not doing it he would commit a wrongdoing in the breach of a duty. But if he does it, he loses time. he arrives too late to the village and gets nothing because the alms giving is finished. Also, when he goes into retreat, he is distracted by the loud noises of novices and young bhikkhus, and by acts of the Coummunity [being carried out]. However, he can live in a large monastery where all duties are done and where there are none of the other distrubances. 2. In a new monastery there is much new building activity. People criticize someone who takes no part in it. Bue he can live in such a monastery where bhikkhus says 'Let the venerable one do the ascetic's duties as much as he lives. We shall see to the building work'. 3. In a dilapidated monastery there is much that needs repair. People criticze someone who does not see about the repairing of at least his own lodging. When he sees to the repairs, his meditation subject suffers. 4. In a monastery with a nearby road, by a main street, visitors keep arriving night and day. He has to given up his own lodging to those who come late, and he has to go and live at the root of a tree or on top of a roach. and next day it is the same. so there is no opportunity [ to practise] his meditation subject. But he can live in one where there is no such distrubance by visitors. 5. a pond is a rock pool. Numbers of people come there for drinking water. Pupils of city-dwelling elders supported by the royal family come to do dyeing work. When they ask for vessels, wood tubs, etc., they must be shown where these things are. So he is kept all the time on the alert. 6. If he goes with his meditation subject to sit by day where there are many sorts of edible leaves, then women vegetable-gatherers, singing as they pick leaves nearby, endager his meditation subject by distrubing it with sounds of the opposite sex. 7. And where there are many sorts of flowering shrubs in bloom there is the same danger too. 8. Where there are many sorts of fruits asuch as mangoes, rose- apples and jake-fruits, people who want fruits come and ask for them, and they get angry if he does not give them any, or they take them by force. When walking in the monastery in the evening he sees them and asks, 'Why do you do so, lay followers?", they abuse him as they please and even try to evict him. 9. When he lives in a monastery that is famous and renown in the world, like Dakkhinagiri, Hatthikucchi, Cetiyagiri or Cittalapabbata, there are always people coming who want to pay homage to him, supposing that he is an Arahant, which inconveniences him. But if it suits him, he can live there at night and go elsewhere by day. 10. In one with a nearby city objects to the opposite sex come into focus, Women-pot carriers go by bumping into him with their jars and giving no room to pass. Also important people spread out carpets in the middle of the monastery and sit down. 11. One with nearby timber trees where there are timber trees and oisers useful for making framework is inconvenient because of the wood-gatherers there, like the gathereres of branches and fruits already mentioned. if there are trees in a monastery, people come and cut them down to build houses with. When he has come out of his meditation room in the evening and is walking up and down in the monastery, if he sees them and asks, 'Why do you do so , lay followers?", they abuse him as they please and even try to evict him. 12. People make use of one with nearby arable fields, quite surrounded by fields. They make a threshing floor in the middle of the monastery itself. They thresh corn there, dry it in the forecourts, and cause great inconvenience. And where there is extensive property belong to the Coummunity, the monastery attendants impound cattle belonging to families and deny the water supply. Then people bring an ear of paddy and show it to the Community saying 'Look at your monastery attendants' work' . For one reason or another he has to go to the portals of the king or the king's ministers. 13. Presence of incompatible persons: where there are bhikkhus living who are incompatible and mutually hostile, when they clash and it is protested, 'Venerable sirs, do not do so', they exlaim 'We no longer count now that this refuse-rag wearer has come'. 14. One with nearby water port of entry or land port of entry is made inconvenient by people constantly arriving respectively by ship or by caravan and crowding round, asking for space or for drinking water or salt. 15. In the case of one near the border countries, people have no trust in the Buddha, etc., there. 16. In one near the frontier of a kingdom there is fear of kings. For perhaps one king attacks that place, thinking 'It does not submit to my rule', and the other does likewise, thinking 'It does not submit to my rule'. A bhikkhu lives there when it is conquerered by one king and when it is conquerered by the other. Then they suspect him of spying and they bring about his undoing. 17. Unsuitability is that due to the risk of encountering visible data, etc., of the opposite sex as objects or to haunting by non- human beings. 18. Lack of good friends: where it is not poossible to find a good friend as a teacher or the equivalent of a teacher or a preceptor or the equivalent of a preceptor, the lack of good friends there is a serious fault. One that has any of these eighteen faults should be understood as unfavorable. And this is said in the commentaries: a large abode, a new abode, one tumbling down, one near a road, one with a pond, or leaves, or flowers or fruits, or one that people seek; in cities, among timber, fields, where people quarrel, in a port, in border lands, on frontiers, unsuitableness, and no good friend these are the eighteen instances a wise man needs to recognize and give them full as wide a berth as any footpad-hunted road #62495 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi Howard, ---------- H: > Ken, are you actually maintaining that the Theravada texts do not teach meditation? That they teach against meditating? ----------- If I can assume you are saying "meditation" in the same way I say "formal meditation," then yes, I am certainly saying the texts do not teach it. And I do go far as to say they teach against it. They teach against it under the heading of "belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual." --------------------------- H: > You maintain that was Buddhaghosa's reporting? If I believed it were so that Therevada taught a no-meditation doctrine, I'd become a Mahayanist in a split second! Fortunately, one need only look at the Visuddhimagga to see that is not so! ---------------------------- I look forward to your joining Kel's thread on this topic. Ken H #62496 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi Kel, ------ K: > Thanks for an opening as I'm armed with Visuddhimagga today. ------ :-) The crux of our discussion is that you see the texts as prescribing courses of action, while I see them as describing conditioned paramattha dhammas. In other words, we understand the texts differently. So it is not going to prove anything if you simply throw a block of Visuddhimagga on the table and say, "There you have it! Case proved!" You will need to show me where it is said that a formally prescribed set of instructions (e.g., sit here, hold your back like this, concentrate on this) will have any effect on the arising or non-arising of paramattha dhammas. The world is the presently arisen five khandhas. They arose according to conditions. The Buddha taught those conditions, and he explained how the non-arising of the khandhas comes to be. It is very hard to understand the world and the Dhamma in this way. We cling to the idea of something more. Most of all, we cling to the idea of a self that will continue from the present to the future. Hence, we are concerned with rites and rituals that we hope will make the world other than it is. Because of this clinging, it is very hard to accept the Dhamma as simply a way of understanding the five khandhas. For example, you believe there is such a thing as a hut or a building to which a jhana meditator can retire. And you believe there is such a thing as his backbone that can be kept nice and straight. But where are the five khandhas when you are thinking that way? Is there any mindfulness of them? Before you reject it, you really should learn this perspective on the Dhamma that sees only the present five khandhas. The texts you are quoting explain various ways in which khandhas arise and the conditions that make them arise in those ways. It is tempting to look for something more, and very hard not to see people and places that persist from the past to the present to the future. In that way, of course you are going to interpret the texts as prescribing courses of action - it would be impossible not to. But, as I said; before you reject the other way, at least try to see it. Ken H #62497 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:22 pm Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness?? buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi James, Hi Ken (and Kel), Ken: I agree; people believe what they want to believe. That is why discussions about Dhamma are a waste of time if they are about personal, idiosyncratic, beliefs. Let's discuss the texts! James: But an exploration of your belief system, which is what I did, is important in order to understand where you are coming from. You see, the point is that it wouldn't matter how many texts I quoted to you supporting the practice of formal/deliberate meditation, you would still see them in your own idiosyncratic way. For example, Kel has given you lots of quotes from the Path of Purification which support and teach meditation practice (I have even seen that book referred to as a meditation manual). But, it doesn't matter how many quotes Kel provides for you, you are still going to see the matter in your own way. This is what you wrote to Kel as to what you want to see: "You will need to show me where it is said that a formally prescribed set of instructions (e.g., sit here, hold your back like this, concentrate on this) will have any effect on the arising or non-arising of paramattha dhammas." And you see, this is a ridiculous requirement. Meditation doesn't change or affect the arising or non-arising of paramattha dhammas (except in the case of the sublime abodes), meditation allows awareness of these dhammas to be more clear and consistent. Meditation conditions awareness to be more pure and powerful. Meditation doesn't transform samsara. Ken, you have set up an impossible matrix and it is useless to discuss it any further with you. Metta, James Ps. Kel, thanks for quoting so much of the Vism.! I have wanted to get a copy of it. Jon and Sarah told me I can get a free copy in Taiwan so I am looking into that…in the meantime, please quote more! #62498 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Jon: I'm familiar with the simile given in the suttas of metta being >like a mother's love for her child. But I don't think that helps >much in being able to distinguish whether the present mindstate is >the kusala one of metta or the akusala one of the near enemy of >metta, namely, selfish affection (or subtle attachment). > >James: Well, Jon, then we can't really have much of a discussion. >You state that it is important to know the characteristics of metta >of the present moment so that it can be developed. I tell you how >the suttas describe its characteristic and you say that that >description doesn't help you. So, what am I to do? Do you have a >better description of the characteristics of metta? If we can't >reach some kind of agreement about the characteristics of metta then >we can't really discuss it. > As I see it, we don't have any disagreement on the description of metta. What I said was that just knowing the description (from the book, as it were) is not enough to enable us to know kusala from subtle akusala. This is important if we have a practice of actively developing metta. But whether we agree on this point or not, I think do we at least agree that there are occasions in the day when metta arises, when we think or act with spontaneous good-will towards someone, without any selfish interest, and that at such moments the characteristic of kusala in general or of metta in particular can be known? Nothing controversial here, surely?? ;-)) Jon #62499 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:47 am Subject: confidence, gazita2002 hello all, just spent a full day in dhamma discussion in Bkk with wonderful dhamma friends. today we touched on, among many other topics, confidence that can be gained by rejoicing in the opportunity that there will be another Buddha era. I have often felt mmmmm, rather afraid of future. Not that it is something that I dwell on morbidly, however, gven that there is the 3 characteristics anatta, anicca, dukkha, and that I seem to have come across the Buddhas teaching this time round, quite by chance, [or is it Jon, maybe the devas had some hand in it :-) Seriously, it was not until today that i realise that i've held a rather negative [for want of a better word] attitude about future. For example, this lifetime there are opportunities for hearing the Buddhas teaching, and an interest in his word and some understanding of what the Buddha was saying. As it was pointed out to me today, there is no knowledge of past lives so cant know how much understanding was developed in the past , but hearing, contemplating on a deep level, and having some understanding now may be just the right conditions for hearing, contemplating on an even deeper level and developing more understanding in future existences and this is where the confidence bit comes in. Having confidence that these very conditions will be the right conditions to have the opportunity to hear any future buddhas teaching. It was one of those uplifting little moments that caused some joy and yes, confidence to stay courageous. Patience, courage and good cheer azita #62500 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:21 am Subject: Scott 's question and more! sarahprocter... Dear All, (Betty*,Matt*, Sukin* & Jon*) Following Azita's lead, I'll just report on one question and that was Scott's question on the qualities of a teacher one should look for. K.Sujin's reply without the slightest hesitation was 'The Tipitaka'. ***** (Later, when asked, she said that this included the ancient commentaries and sub-commentaries) I mentioned Howard's comment to Jon about our visiting K.Sujin and again she said it was the Tipitaka. We check, question, discuss and reflect on what we hear. We think of the kalyana mitta, but it's the 'association with the wise', our own development of understanding by really studying the dhammas appearing, not just repeating what we hear or read in Pali or any other language, that is meant. Sometimes I laugh to myself in the discussions as I raise numerous detailed points and questions arising from DSG, often presenting the case of those with different understandings to K.Sujin and seeing if the response she gives is along the lines of responses I or others have given. I find it all very helpful to really have my understandings questioned in detail and to look at points arising from different angles. I'll list some of the long list of topics discussed today (some with one word answers as above and some discussed in more detail). *Betty, Matt, Sukin and Jon - can I encourage you to mention one point or topic of particular interest today? Pls remind me (or the others) to elaborate on anything of interest anytime. Metta, Sarah TOPICS ------ Brahma viharas, esp upekkha - calm, reflecting on kamma. Movement, postures - 'poek' iriyapada -no more idea of posture as a whole Caritta and habitual sila vs virati (abstention) piiti - pervading the body (rupas conditioned by cetasika) Right and Wrong speech - not prescriptions - understanding the pregnant lady on the train (ask Azita) sutta on evil women - addressed to Q. Mallika! Ayatanas- sutta -repetition of cittas for emphasis innumerable cittas -don't count! subtle and gross dhammas - anatta - no expectation of what will appear! over-eating (hard to avoid in Thailand)-a condition for no wise attention vimutti - yes, many different meanings and may just refer to jhana -see Matheesha's posts Metta ceto vimutti not necessarily preceding insight or arahatship. BUT the comy I quoted is correct in MN - those bhikkhus -> arahatship Jhana - burning of sense objects NOT hindrances meant. 2 meanings - that of contemplation refers to up to upacara. Contemplation and sutta discussed with Rob? (ask Matt) Samadhi and panna yoked together at vipassana nana. Yuganadha sutta Patimokkha - sotapannas sotapattiphalasacchakiryaaya - working for the fruit of sotapanna as in the Dakkinavibhanga Sutta, MN - yes, a broad reading, not the strict technical single citta one. Aspirations (sutta Chris quoted) - confidence in kusala -> good results. Sankharupekkha nana - 12 (or was it 10) different kinds. Crow simile (ask Kel) - insights before sankharupekkha? Jotipalas - different bodhisattas? Check MN commentary. Qu mark Sacca nana - firm pariyatti Jhanas - Bodhisatta's childhood experience (ask Jon) More on natural language use Jhanas - knowing kusala and akusala- conceptually, taken for self. Even most jhana objects -concepts Conventional and ultimate understanding. No Nina, No Lodewijk! Sound kalapas Herman's qu on brahma distance! taints, asavas, anusayas, rt underst with and without asavas desirable and undesirable objects - Howard's palette of colour. What about lightning? sabhava and lakkhana - same? rupas being afflicted Jhana and jhana factors dukkha and khandhas atta as opposite of anatta, not just sakkaya ditthi, so includes taking of the computer for atta. that's why 'attanavaadupaadaana' broader than sakkaya ditthi animitta and impermanence - Larry, I think what I wrote was correct. Also as in Ken O's good quotes. Savaka bodhisattas - any of us on the path...oh, that was yest. ........ #62501 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: black mail nilovg Dear Connie and Scott, dhammaayatana is not the same as dhammaaramma.na. Aayatanas are associations of realities, and concepts are nere not included. Some dictionnaries make mistakes as to this subject. Nina. Op 13-aug-2006, om 3:35 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > The Aayatanas, note 5: << There are six classes of objects: five > classes of the five sense objects and the sixth class which is > dhammaaramma.na. Dhammaaramma.na can be experienced only through the > mind-door; it includes: the five sense-organs, the subtle ruupas, > citta, cetasika, nibbaana and concepts. #62502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye of Wisdom nilovg Dear James, Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate it that you read the book. As to your question, I am just back and I want to reflect somewhat before answering. No, do question whatever you like, I am far from sacrosankt. I followed your dialogues with Ken H about the matter, but now there are too many mails waiting. I find that even when you state matters a bit bluntly, there is so much sincere kindness behind it. Nina. Op 15-aug-2006, om 15:40 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > As I said before, I have been enjoying your book `The Buddha's Path'. > I posted once about something I questioned, but now I want to quote > something I really liked: #62503 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:33 pm Subject: Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (2) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lodewijk, and others, Teacher or no-teacher? One of the points jotted down by Jon on our discussions was: Not being under a teacher (advantages of). I have no teacher. The religious books and tapes are my teacher. But having no teacher was not by design. If I had an opportunity to have a teacher I would be very glad, and I would consider myself very fortunate. I never forget what the Buddha said in SN 3.18 Kalyaanamitta sutta. -------------------- Aananda said to the Buddha: ‘Venerable sir, this is half of the holy life, that is, good friendship, good companionship, good comradeship.’ Then the Buddha said: ‘Not so, Aananda! Not so, Aananda! This is the entire holy life, that is, good friendship, good companionship, good comradeship.’ -------------------- But I am a born optimistic person. If I had a teacher I would say I was very fortunate. As I do not have a teacher I still say I have some advantages. If I had a teacher I would have to follow his instructions to the letter, and if I did not, even if he might not admonish me, I would have a guilty conscious. When I do not have a teacher I can do anything I like; I can read the books and listen to the tapes, and find out myself what is most suited for me, although it may not necessarily be the most correct one. Therefore, when I said I have some advantages by not being under a teacher, please understand me in the above context, and not as going against the advice given by the Blessed One in SN 3.18. Respectfully, Han #62504 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:52 pm Subject: Detailed Instructions for Development kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, Howard and James Vsm IV 21-30 [Earth Kasina] 21. When a bhikkhu has thus severed the lesser impediments, then, on his return from his alms round after his meal and after he has got rid of drowsiness due to the meal, he should sit down comfortably in a secluded place and apprehend the sign in earth that is either made up or not made up. 24. But when a man has had no such previous practice, he should make a kasina, guardian against the four faults of a kasina and not overlooking any of the directions for the meditation subject learnt from the teacher. Now the four faults of the earth kasina are due to the intrusion of blue, yellow, red or white. So instead of using clay of such colours, he should make ethe kasina of clay like that in the stream of Ganga, which is the colour of the dawn. And he should make it not in the middle of the monastery in a place where novices are about but on the confines of the monastery in the screen place, either under an overhanging rock or in a leaf hut. he can make it either portable or as a fixture. 25. Of these, a portable one should be made by tying rags of leather or matting onto four sticks and smearing thereon a disk of the size already mentioned, using clay picked clean of grass, roots, gravel and sand and well kneaded. At the time of the preliminary work it should be laid on the ground and looked at. A fixture should be made by knocking stakes into the ground in the form of a lotus calyx, lacing them over with creepers. If the clay is insufficient, then other clay should be put underneath and a disk a span and four fingers across made on top of that with the quite pure dawn-coloured clay. For it was with reference only to measurement that it was said abouve either the size of a bushel or the size of a saucer. But that is bounded, not unbounded was said to show its delimitedness. 26. So, having thus made it delimited and of the size prescribed, he should scrape it down with a stone trowel - a woodem trowel truns it in a bad colour, so that should be not be employed - and make it as even as the surface of a drum. Then he should sweep the place out and have a bath. On his return he should seat himself on a well- covered chair with legs a span and four fingers high, prepared in a place that is two and a half cubits from the kasina disk. For the kasina does not appear plain to him if he sits further off than that; and if he sits nearer than that, faults in the kasina appear. If he sits higher up, he has to look at it with his neck bent; and if he sits lower down, his knees ache. 27. So, after seating himself in the way stated, he should review the dangers in sense desire in the way begining 'Sense desires give little enjoyment' and arouse longing for the escape from sense desires, for the reunication that is the means to the surmounting of all suffering. he should next arouse joy of happiness by recollecting the special qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha; then awe by thinking 'Now this is the way of reunication entered upon by all Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas and noble disciples'; and then eagerness by thinking 'In this way I shall surely come to know the taste of the bliss of seclusion'. After that he should open his eyes moderately, apprehend the sign, and so proceed to develop it. 28. If he opens his eyes too wide, they get fatigued and the disk becomes too obvious, which prevents the sign becoming apparent to him. If he opens them too little, the disk is not obvious enough, and his mind becomes drowsy, which also prevents the sign becoming apparent to him. So he should develop it by apprehind the sign, keeping his eyes open moderately, as if he were seeing the reflection of his face on the surface of a looking-glass. 29. The colour should not be reviewed. The characteristic should not be given attention. But rather, while not ignoring the colour, attention should be given by setting thte mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, relegating the colour to the position of a property of its physical support. That [conceputal state] can be called by any one he likes among the names for earth such as earth, the great one, the friendly one, ground, the provider of wealth, the bearer of wealth, whichever suits his manner of perception. Still earth is also a name that is obvious, so it can be developed with the obvious one by saying 'earth, earth'. It should be adverted to now with eyes open, now with eyes shut. And he should go developing it in this way a hundred times, a thousand times and even more than that, until the learning sign arises. 30. When, while he is developing it in this wa, it comes to focus as he adverts with his eyes shut exactly as it does with his eyes open, then the learning sign is said to have been produced. After its production he should no longer sit in that place; he should return to his own quarters and go on developing it sitting there. But in order to avoid the delay of foot washing, a pair of single- soled sandals and a walking stick are desireable. Then if the new concentration vanishes through some unsuitable encounter, he can put his sandals on, take his walking stick, and go back to the place to reapprehend the sign there. When he retusn he should seat himself comfortably and develop it by reiterated reaction to it and by striking at it with thought and applied thought. #62505 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness?? kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, > :-) The crux of our discussion is that you see the texts as > prescribing courses of action, while I see them as describing > conditioned paramattha dhammas. In other words, we understand the > texts differently. Kel: That's the original thing we were arguing about isn't it. I said people can and will read the same texts differently aside from authenticity arguments. > You will need to show me where it is said that a formally prescribed > set of instructions (e.g., sit here, hold your back like this, > concentrate on this) will have any effect on the arising or > non-arising of paramattha dhammas. Kel: I gave an example in #62504. > Most of all, we cling to the idea of a self that > will continue from the present to the future. Hence, we are concerned > with rites and rituals that we hope will make the world other than it is. Kel: Hard to argue with that I guess. But that's not what first two sections of visuddhimagga is concerned about. > meditator can retire. And you believe there is such a thing as his > backbone that can be kept nice and straight. But where are the five > khandhas when you are thinking that way? Is there any mindfulness of them? Kel: Sure it's easy to keep it straight when you're lying down and that would be part of kayagata-sati. > Before you reject it, you really should learn this perspective on the > Dhamma that sees only the present five khandhas. The texts you are > quoting explain various ways in which khandhas arise and the > conditions that make them arise in those ways. It is tempting to look > for something more, and very hard not to see people and places that > persist from the past to the present to the future. In that way, of > course you are going to interpret the texts as prescribing courses of > action - it would be impossible not to. But, as I said; before you > reject the other way, at least try to see it. Kel: I read the texts as simply in the context that they're given. How can I reject need to five khandhas and seeing that properly. I think "the other way" is mostly useful to the people who have reached more refined stages where subtle lobha/self might actually be seen. Worrying about that before sila is even solid might be a bit premature. If you take back your comment about there being no formal practice for samatha, your position would be easier to defend. As far as I understand Jon/Sarah, they only make claims about vipassana. I don't really see how else you can read first two sections of Visuddhimagga. - Kel #62506 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:54 pm Subject: Lovingkindess kelvin_lwin Hi James and Jon, Vsm IX 1-12 1. A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindess among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn the meditations ubject. Then, when he has down the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself conformtably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience. 2. Why? because hate has to be abandoned and patience attained in the development of this meditation subject, and he cannot abandon unsenn dangers and attain unknown advantages. 4. For lovingkindness should not be developed at first towards the following four kinds of person: an antipathetic person, a very dearly loved friend, a neutral person, and a hostile person. Also it should not be developed specifically towards the opposite sex, or towards a dead person. 5. What is the reason why it should not be developed at first towards an antipathetic person and the others? To put an antipathetic person in a dear one's place is fatiguing. To put a very dearly loved friend in a netural person's place is fatiguing; and if the slightest mischance befalls the friend, he feels like weeping. To put a neutral person in a respected one's or a dear one's place is fatiguing. Anger springs up in him if he recollects a hostile person. That is why it should not be developed at first towards an antipathetic person and the rest. 6. Then, if he develops it specifically toward the opposite sex, lust inspired by that person springs up in him ...The elder told him, 'Towards a person one loves'. He loved his own wife. Through developing lovingkindess towards her he was fighting against the wall all the night. That is why it should not be developed specifically towards the opposite sex. 8. First of all it should be developed only towards onself, doing it repeatedly thus: 'May I be happy and free from suffering' or 'May I keep myself free from enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily'. 10. This [initial development towards onself] refers to [making onself] an example. For even if he developed lovingkindess for a hundred or a thousand years in this way, 'I am happy' and so on, absorption would never arise. But if he develops it in this way: 'I am happy. Just as i want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too', making himself the example, then desire for other beings' welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One's saying: I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another 11. So he should first, as example, pervade himself with lovingkindess. Next after that, in order to proceed easily, he can recollect such gifts, kind words, as inspire love and endearment, such virtue, learning, as inspire respect and reverence met with in a teacher or his equivalent or a preceptor or his equivalent, developing lovingkindess towards him in the way beginning 'May this good man be happy and free from suffering'. With such a person, of course, he attains absorption. 12. But if this bhikkhu does not rest content with just that much and wants to break down the barriers, he should next, after that, develop lovingkindness towardsa a very daerly loved friend, then towards a neutral person as a very dearly loved friend, then towards a hostile person as neutral. And while he does so, he should make him mind malleable and wieldly in each instance before passing on to the next. #62507 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:59 pm Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi James, Kel, Howard and all, ------ <. . .> KH: > > Let's discuss the texts! > > James: > But an exploration of your belief system, which is what I did, is important in order to understand where you are coming from. ------------------- Perhaps it would be appropriate if I reminded people of where I was coming from. It may help to explain my abrupt, sometimes objectionable, manner. I rejected religion in my late school years, and became quite antagonistic towards it. I suppose I resented it for having tricked me into becoming (for a while) the kind of person I now derided - a ludicrous, escapist, gullible, superstitious, God-botherer. When I became a Buddhist, some ten years later, it was a bit of a back down, but I clung to the fact that there was no God or superstition involved. So I hadn't "gone back to the other side." I became increasingly aware, of course, that meditation was eerily similar to prayer, and that maybe I was fooling myself - maybe this was just another religion after all. But I stuck with it. What else was there? After another twenty-six years, I found my friends here at DSG and learned a perspective on the Dhamma that totally suited me. Not a shred of religious "nuttery" was involved. I didn't need to behave in any way that made me stand out from the rest of sane, decorous, intelligent society. After that confession, you might well conclude that my love of Abhidhamma-style Buddhism is for the wrong reasons. That would be fair criticism, but I like to think it is also for the right reasons. -------------- J: > You see, the point is that it wouldn't matter how many texts I quoted to you supporting the practice of formal/deliberate meditation, you would still see them in your own idiosyncratic way. -------------- That's true. When a person has acquired this "no control" perspective on the Dhamma, there is turning back. The mere suggestion that the Buddha might have taught a formal practice is seen as utterly absurd. Whichever way one looks at it, a formal (ritualistic) path to enlightenment is clearly impossible. ----------------- J: > For example, Kel has given you lots of quotes from the Path of Purification which support and teach meditation practice (I have even seen that book referred to as a meditation manual). But, it doesn't matter how many quotes Kel provides for you, you are still going to see the matter in your own way. This is what you wrote to Kel as to what you want to see: ------------------ That's right. Everything Kel has quoted has been quoted before on DSG. It is clear to me that if a person has accumulated the right qualities for jhana meditation he will naturally turn to an ascetic lifestyle. There will be no stopping him. That will become his normal (not ludicrous, not ritualistic, not inane) daily life. But for someone like me, it would be the opposite. --------------- KH: > > "You will need to show me where it is said that a formally prescribed set of instructions (e.g., sit here, hold your back like this, concentrate on this) will have any effect on the arising or non-arising of paramattha dhammas." > > J: > Ken, you have set up an impossible matrix and it is useless to discuss it any further with you. ------------- Fair enough! I hope you don't mind my having the last word. :-) Ken H #62508 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 pm Subject: Getting Rid of Resentment kelvin_lwin Hi James and all, Vsm 14-39 [long post] 14. If resentment arises in him when he applies his mind to a hostile person because he remembers wrong done by that person, he should get rid of the resentment by entering repeatedly into lovingkindess [jhana] towards any of the first-mentioned person and then, after he has emerged each time, directing lovingkindess towards that person. 15. But if it does not die out in spite of his efforts, then: He should admonish himself in this way: "Now, you who get angry, has not the Blessed One said this: "Bhikkhus, even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching" ... And this: "Behikkhus, there are seven things gratifying and helpful to an enemy that happen to one who is angry, wehther woman or man. What seven? Here, bhikkhus, an enemy wishes thus for his enemy, "let him be ugly!'. Why is that? An enemy does not delight in an enemy's beauty. Now this angry person is a prey to anger, ruled by anger; though well bathed, well anointed, with hair and beard trimmed and clothed in white, yet he is ugly, being a prey to anger. This is the first gratifying and helpful to an enemy that befalls one who is angry, whether woman or man. Furthermore, an enemy wishes thus for his enemy,'Let him lie in pain!" .. " Let him have no good fortune!' .. "Let him not be wealthy!' .. "Let him not be famous!' ... 'Let him have no friends!' .. 'Let him not on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destiny in the heavenly world!'. Why is that? An enemy does not delight in an enemy's gonig to a happy destiny ... if you are angry now, you will be one who does not carry out the Blessed One's teaching; by repaying an angry man in kind you will be worse than the angry man and not win the battle hard to win; you will yourself do to yourself the things that help your enemy ... 16. If his resentment subsides when he strives and makes effort in this way, it is good. If not, then he should remove irritation by remembering some controlled and purified state in that person, which inspires confidence when remembered. 17. For one person may be controlled in his bodily behavior with his control in doing an extensive course of duty known to all, though his verbal and mental behaviors are not controlled. Then the latter should be ignored and the control in his bodily behavior remembered. 18. Another may be controlled in his verbal behavior and his control known to all - he may nautrally be clever at welcoming kindly, easy to talk with, congenial, open-countenanced, deferential in speech, and he may expound the dhamma with a sweet voice and give explanations of Dhamma with well-rounded phrases and details - though his bodily and mental behavior are not controlled. Then the latter should be ignored and the control in his verbal behavior remembered. 19. ... For when one who is unctrolled in mind pays homage at a shrine or at an Enlightenment Tree or to elders, he does not do it carefully, and he sits in the Dhamma-reaching pavilion with mind astray or nodding, while not whose mind is controlled pays homage carefully and deliberately, listens to the Dhamma attentively, remembering it, and evincing the confidence in his mind through his body or his speech. So another maybe only controlled in his mental behavior .. etc 20. But there may be another in whom not even one of these things is controlled. Then compassion for that person should be aroused thus: 'Though he is going about in the human world now, nevertheless after a certain number of days he will find himself in [one of] the eight great hells or the sixteen prominent hells'. For irritation subsides too through compassion. IN yet another all three may be controlled. Then he can remember any of the three in that person, whichever he likes; for the development of lovingkindess towards such a person is easy. 21. And in order to make the meaning of this clear the following sutta from the Book of Fives should be cited in full: ' Bhikkhus, there are five ways of dispelling annoyance whereby annoyance arisen in a bhikkhu can be entirely dispelled' (A.iii, 186-90) 22 ... Suppose an enemy has hurt You now in what is his domain, Why try yourself as well to hurt Your mind? -- That is not his domain .. [long section cont] 23 But if resentment does not subside when he admonishes himself thus, the he should review the fact that he himself and hte other are oweners of their deeds (kamma). Herein, he should first review this in himself thus: 'Now what is the point of your getting angry with him? Wil not this kamma of yours that has anger as its source lead to your own harm? For you are the owner of your deeds, heri of your deeds, having deeds as your parent ... And this is not the kind of deed to bring you to full enlightenment, to undeclared enlightenment or to the disciple's grade, or to any position as the status of Brahma or Sakka, or the throne of a Wheel-turning Monarch or a regional king. but rather this is the kind of deed to leard to your fall from Dispensation, even to the status of the eaters of scrap and to the manifold suffering in the hells and so on. By donig this you are like a man who wants to hit another and picks up a burning ember or excrement in his hand and so first burns himself or makes himself stink'. 26 ... review special qualities of the Master's former conduct. "now you who have gone forth, is it not a fact that when your master was a Bodhisatta before discovering full enlightenment, while he was still enggaged in fulfilling the perfections during the four incalculable ages and a hundread thousand aeons, he did not allow hate to corrupt his mind even when his enemies tried to murder him on various occasions? [various stories of Bodhisatta] 36. But if, as he reviews the special qualities of the master's former conduct, the resentment still does not subside in him, since he has long been used to the slavery of defilment, then he should review the suttas that deal with the beginninglessness [of the round of rebirths]. Here is what is said: "Bhikkhus, it is not easy to find a being who has not formerly been your mother .. your father .. your brother .. your sister .. your son .. your daughter'. Consequently he should think about that person thus: "This person , it seems, as my mother in the past carried me in her womb for ten months and removed from me without disgust, as if it were yellow sandalwood, my ruine, excrement, spittle, snot and played with me in her lap and nourished me, carrying me about her hip. And this person as my father went by goat paths and paths set on piles to pursue the trade of merchant and he risked his life for me by going into battle in double array, by sailing on the great ocean in ships and doing other difficult things and he nourished me by bringing back wealth by one means or another thinking to feed his children. And as my brother, sister, son daught,er this person gave me such and such help. So it is unbecoming for me to harbour hate for him in my mind'. 37. But if he is still unable to quench that thought in this way, then he should review the advantages of lovingkindess thus: "now you who have gone forth into homelessness, has it not been said by Blessed One as follows: "Bhikkhus, when the mind-deliverance of lovingkindess is cultivated, developed, much practised, made the vehicle, made the foundation, established, consolidated, and properly undertaken, eleven blessings can be expected. What are the eleven? A man sleeps in comfort, wakes in comfort, and dreams no eveil dreams, he is dear to human beings, he is dear to non-human beings, deities guard him, first and poison and weapons do not affect him, his mind is easily concentrated, the expression on his face is serene, he dies unconfused, if he penetrates no higher he will reborn in the Brahma-world. If you do not stop this thought, you will be denied these advantages. 38. But if he is still unable to stop it in this way, he should try resolution into elements. 'How? 'Now you have gone forth into homelessness, when you are angry with him, what is it you are angry with? Is it head hairs you are angry with? Or Body hairs? or Nails .. or is it urine you are angry with? Or alternatively, is it the earth element in the head hairs etc., you are angry with? Or the water element? or the fire element? or is it the air element you are angry with? Or among the five aggregates or the tweleve bases or the eighteen elements with respect to which this veneral one is called by such and such a name, which then, is it the materiality aggregate you are angry with? Or the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, the consciousness aggregate you are angry with? Or is it the eye base you are angry with? Or the visible-object base you are angry with? .. or the mind base you are angry with? Or the mental-object base you are angry with? Or is it the eye element you are angry with? Or the visible- object element? Or the eye-consciousness element? .. Or the mind element? Or the mental-object element? Or the mind-consciousness element you are angry with? For when he tries the resolution into elements, his anger finds no foothold, like the mustard seed on the point of an awl or a painting on the air. 39. But if he cannot effect the resolution into elements, he should try the giving of a gift. It can either be given by himself to the other or accepted by himself from the other. But if the other's livelihood is not purified and his requisites are not proper to be used, it should be given by oneself. And in the other who does this the annoyance with that person entirely subsides. And in the other even anger that has been dogging him from a past birth subsides at the moment, as happened to the senior elder who received a bowl given to him at the Cittalalpabbata Monastery by an almsfood-eater elder who had been three times made to move from his lodging by him, and who presented it with these words: 'Venerable sir, this bowl worth eight ducats was given me by my mother who is a lay devotee, and tit is rightly obtained; let the good lay devotee acquire merit'. So efficacious is this act of giving. And this is said: A gift for taming the untamed, A gift for every kind of good; Through giving gifts they do unbend And condescend to kindly speech - Kel #62509 From: connie Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:00 pm Subject: Re: black mail nichiconn Dear Nina and Scott, Nina: Dhammaayatana is not the same as dhammaaramma.na. Aayatanas are associations of realities, and concepts are here not included. Some dictionaries make mistakes as to this subject. Connie: Yes. Thank you, Nina. from "Dh. Issues kopie#": FOUNDATION BULLETIN Dhamma Issues, Ch. 1 - The Aayatanas. first, from the Introduction: <> then: note 5: << There are six classes of objects: five classes of the five sense objects and the sixth class which is dhammaaramma.na. Dhammaaramma.na can be experienced only through the mind-door; it includes: the five sense-organs, the subtle ruupas, citta, cetasika, nibbaana and concepts.>> ======== note 1: <<...aayatana has several meanings: *dwelling place, birthplace or meeting place for citta and cetasikas; "mine" (aakara) or place of production, and cause or reason (kara.na). Aayatana implies association of dhammas.>> peace. #62510 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi Kel, ----------- <. . .> Kel: > That's the original thing we were arguing about isn't it. I said people can and will read the same texts differently aside from authenticity arguments. ------------ Yes, I remember. BTW, I haven't entirely accepted your point about its being "aside from authenticity arguments." I believe that formal meditation is untenable in the light of the texts as a whole. It is only by either ignoring, or casting aspersions on, some parts of the texts (claiming that the Abhidhamma was a latter added-on supplement, for example) that some practices can be upheld. --------------- KH: > > Hence, we are concerned with rites and rituals that we hope will make the world other than it is. > > Kel: > Hard to argue with that I guess. But that's not what first two sections of visuddhimagga is concerned about. ----------------- I will agree that jhana and other forms of samatha meditation existed prior to the Buddha's teaching, and so we could say they did not involve insight into the five khandhas. But there are two things to consider. Firstly, no real jhana-citta has ever contained wrong view. The early jhana masters did not know about anatta, and so they would have held some wrong views (e.g., of a persisting entity). However, their wrong views never surfaced at actual moments of jhana. The meditator avoided them, not because he knew they were the cetasika, miccha-ditthi, but because he knew from experience that they were incompatible with samatha. Secondly, the way of understanding jhana meditation changed after the Buddha's teaching. From that time on, all Dhamma-students - meditators and non-meditators alike - understood everything in terms of conditioned namas and rupas. ------------------- KH: > > In that way of course you are going to interpret the texts as prescribing courses of action - it would be impossible not to. But, as I said; before you reject the other way, at least try to see it. > > Kel: > I read the texts as simply in the context that they're given. How can I reject need to five khandhas and seeing that properly. I think "the other way" is mostly useful to the people who have reached more refined stages where subtle lobha/self might actually be seen. Worrying about that before sila is even solid might be a bit premature. ------------------ If sila is weak at this moment, then our right understanding is to know that sila is weak at this moment. What else could it be? (Unless, of course, there was enduring self.) ------------------------- Kel: > If you take back your comment about there being no formal practice for samatha, your position would be easier to defend. -------------------------- As I was trying to say before, jhana is different in some ways from vipassana. For example, jhana absorption requires an uninterrupted flow of mind-door cittas (with no sense-door cittas in between). To do that, a meditator (unless he is a master) needs to be free from distractions. Therefore he needs a quiet place and an upright posture etc. However, there can be no misapprehensions about how samatha comes into being. The meditator could not possibly be of the opinion that a secluded hut or a straight back could actually make samatha occur. The only thing that makes samatha occur is the meditator's accumulations for wholesome consciousness. He needs to possess the kind of wisdom that knows the difference between wholesome and unwholesome consciousness (even in its most subtle forms). Only then can he even consider the possibility of absorption. Before that stage, the idea of going to a quiet place would be ludicrous. (The meditation courses we see people being duped into these days are nothing like the real thing.) ---------- Kel: > As far as I understand Jon/Sarah, they only make claims about vipassana. I don't really see how else you can read first two sections of Visuddhimagga. ----------- If we are talking about the same thing, I really don't know how you could come to that conclusion. If, as we agree, there are only the five khandhas (arising purely by conditions) then that same law must apply equally to samatha and vipassana. It even applies, in the ultimate sense, to twiddling our thumbs. We need to see conditionality 'everywhere in all things.' Ken H #62511 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:44 pm Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness?? buddhatrue Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi James, Kel, Howard and all, > > ------ > <. . .> > KH: > > Let's discuss the texts! > > > > > James: > But an exploration of your belief system, which is what I > did, is important in order to understand where you are coming from. > ------------------- > > Perhaps it would be appropriate if I reminded people of where I was > coming from. It may help to explain my abrupt, sometimes > objectionable, manner. I rejected religion in my late school years, > and became quite antagonistic towards it. I suppose I resented it for > having tricked me into becoming (for a while) the kind of person I now > derided - a ludicrous, escapist, gullible, superstitious, God- botherer. Thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences in life to explain your viewpoint. Your explanation does explain a lot to me and does answer many questions in my mind. I could respond with, "Oh, this is right, but this, and this, and this is wrong", but it isn't my life to judge. We each have our own kamma and kamma- vipaka and it is the job of everyone else to be patient and understanding. So, in summary, I have nothing negative to say about your personal life (so maybe you could knock it off with the ESP jibes?? ;-)). Metta, James #62512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (2) the teacher. nilovg Dear Han and Scott, Han, thank you very much for your reports and your personal take. I really appreciate this. Sarah quoted Kh Sujin, saying that the Tipitaka is our teacher, and that this includes also the commentaries. This has a deeper background. Her teacher of Abhidhamma was Acharn Naeb, but as to the practice, they went different ways. I asked Kh Sujin how she developed insight without a teacher. Then she said that by studying carefully the Tipitaka she understood how to develop the eightfold Path. At that time there were not many commentaries translated into Thai, but she visited a monk in the Bovornives temple (I was with her) and asked him to read the commentary for the sutta she was going to quote for her next lecture. It is true, the Buddha left us the Tipitaka. We have to compare the different parts of Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma and see for ourselves that they are in conformity with each other. She always emphasizes that we have to develop our own understanding, not being dependent on a person. But it is true that association with a sappurisa, an ariyan, is one of the conditions for enligthtenment. It is not easy to find an ariyan in this world, but what we can find out is the following: does the good friend help us to have more detachment? Does he or she help us to have more understanding of our daily life? What I want to tell Scott, it is understandable that you feel isolated and would like a personal contact. Why not, it is good to visit monks and have Dhamma conversations with them. And I know that you will check for yourself what is right and what is wrong. Therefore, there isn't any problem here and no need to think: shall I approach the monk you me beforet or not. In the last instance, the Tipitaka is our teacher, and we have to verify the truth oursleves as far as we are able to. Scott, you spoke with Mattheesha who suggested not to expect the perfect teacher, and this is a sound advice. It depends so much on conditions, including former accumulations (think of the four Wheels sutta) whom you will meet. It is not in our own hands, it is due to kamma. You wrote to me: I would say that this is needless worry about the future. Who can tell how cittas will react? Perhaps the pupil will explain his views, and nobody knows how the relationship will continue. Nama and rupa arising because of their appropriate conditions. A relationship pertains to persons, but I find it helpful to consider that persons are ever changing citta, cetasika and ruupa. The cittas of this individual are different from the cittas of that individual, because there are different accumulated inclinations, wholesome and unwholesome. Han said: But having no teacher was not by design. How true. We see how all the events of our life depend on conditions. We never know whom we will meet, and how this or that person will help us. Our life is full of surprises. Nina. Op 16-aug-2006, om 22:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, Lodewijk, and others, > > Teacher or no-teacher? > > One of the points jotted down by Jon on our > discussions was: > Not being under a teacher (advantages of). > > I have no teacher. The religious books and tapes are > my teacher. But having no teacher was not by design. > >> . > > #62513 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:09 am Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness?? ken_aitch Hi James, ---------- <. . .> J: > Your explanation does explain a lot to me and does answer many questions in my mind. ----------- I'm glad if it has helped. Reading it back, I see it makes me sound worse than it was meant to. So please don't read too much into it. :-) As for the "jibes" you mentioned: I've just checked the original message, and I don't think they were jibes at all! But I apologise anyway. This is the new Ken H. :-) Ken H #62514 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:06 am Subject: Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lodewijk, and others, I thank you very much for your kind response to my report no. (2). It is very useful for me and I really appreciate it. In particular, I have noted that: * the Tipitaka is our teacher, and that this includes also the commentaries. * in looking for a teacher or a good friend (kalyaana-mitta) we can find out: does this good friend help us to have more detachment? Does he or she help us to have more understanding of our daily life? * we see how all the events of our life depend on conditions. -------------------- Now, please allow me to continue with my report. "Atta-vaadupaadaana" I requested Sarah to explain more on what she meant by atta-vaadupaadaana is broader than sakkaaya ditthi. I referred to her message # 60593 on atta-vaadupaadaana, the excerpt of which is shown below. Quote [2. I understood that when the other vipallaasas arise that take the impermanent khandhas for permanent and the wrong view that the painful is pleasant and the impure is pure, that these can also be included under atta-vaadupaadaana. For example, anything can be taken for being permanent and pleasant, including the khandhas we take for self, but not just these. The rupas we take for a pen or computer or rock can also be taken for being permanent or pleasant with wrong view. In other words, I believe atta or attan ('soul') can refer to any conditioned dhammas taken as being permanent and satisfactory.] End Quote -------------------- I said that it is difficult for me to accept as atta-vaadupaadaana the wrong view that considers a pen or computer or rock which is impermanent as permanent. I said that this kind of wrong view should be included under other upaadaana, most probably under ditthupaadaana. Sarah said she would ask Khun Sujin and let us know later. Then in her message # 62500 Sarah mentioned the list of topics discussed at the Foundation, which included: “atta as opposite of anatta, not just sakkaya ditthi, so includes taking of the computer for atta. that's why 'attanavaadupaadaana' broader than sakkaya ditthi.” Now, the problem is who would take the computer for atta? And it is also a bit difficult to appreciate that all that is opposite to anatta are atta. I hope Sarah would come up with more details about the discussion on this subject. Respectfully, Han #62515 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (2) the teacher. matheesha333 Dear Scott, Han, Nina, N: We see > how all the events of our life depend on conditions. We never know > whom we will meet, and how this or that person will help us. Our life > is full of surprises. Yes, and the way to be is without anxiety and anticipation - be free to react in whatever appropriate way. We cannot approach with one view in mind -'I will react to him this way'. This makes us rigid and tense and not really participating in the world. You are well and capable. Take it easy, just relax. Whatever comes is ok. On the bigger picture your response doesnt matter a great deal either! So don't feel obliged to be this way or that. with metta Matheesha #62516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:54 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 32 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught about everything which appears now and which can be directly experienced. He did not teach abstract ideas. What appears now? Is it attachment, aversion or ignorance? Or is it generosity or compassion? In our life there are wholesome moments and unwholesome moments and these change very rapidly. We do not have one consciousness or mind, but many different moments of consciousness (cittas). When we, for example, perform a good deed there are wholesome moments of consciousness, but also unwholesome moments of consciousness may arise. Some slight stinginess may arise, which we only know ourselves and which nobody else may notice. There may be attachment to the person to whom we give something, or there may be conceit. If we do not know when there is a wholesome moment of consciousness (kusala citta) and when there is an unwholesome moment of consciousness (akusala citta) how could we develop wholesomeness? Through the development of right understanding of the different moments of consciousness we will better know our own defilements and then we will see that the cause of all sadness and misery is within ourselves and not outside ourselves. ****** Nina. #62517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:51 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 51 nilovg Dear friends, The second type of moha-múla-citta is accompanied by indifferent feeling, arising with restlessness (upekkhå-sahagata.m, uddhacca- sampayutta.m). Uddhacca is translated as restlessness or excitement. Uddhacca arises with all akusala cittas. When there is uddhacca there is no sati (mindfulness) with the citta. Sati arises with each wholesome citta; it is mindful, non-forgetful, of what is wholesome. There is sati not only in vipassanå, the development of right understanding of realities, but also with each kind of kusala. There is sati when one performs dåna (generosity), observes síla (good moral conduct) or applies oneself to bhåvanå, mental development, which comprises studying or teaching the Dhamma, the development of samatha, tranquil meditation, and vipassanå. Sati in vipassanå is aware of a characteristic of nåma or rúpa. When there is uddhacca, the citta cannot be wholesome; one cannot at that moment apply oneself to dåna, síla or bhåvanå. Uddhacca distracts the citta from kusala. Uddhacca is restlessness with regard to kusala. Thus, uddhacca is different from what we in conventional language mean by restlessness. Uddhacca arises also with the moha-múla-citta which is accompanied by doubt, since it arises with each akusala citta. The second type of moha-múla-citta, however, is called uddhacca-sampayutta; it is different from the first type of moha-múla-citta which is called vicikicchå-sampayutta. The second type of moha-múla-citta, the moha-múla-citta which is uddhacca-sampayutta, accompanied by restlessness, arises countless times a day, but it is difficult to know its characteristic. If one has not developed vipassanå one does not know this type of citta. When we are forgetful of realities and ``day-dreaming'', there is not necessarily this type of citta. When we are ``day-dreaming'' there is not only the second type of moha-múla-citta (uddhacca-sampayutta), but there may also be lobha-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) and dosa-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion). Moha-múla-citta can arise on account of what we experience through the five sense-doors and through the mind-door. When, for example, we have heard sound, moha-múla-citta may arise. When the second type of moha-múla-citta which is uddhacca-sampayutta arises, there is ignorance and forgetfulness with regard to the object which is experienced at that moment. We may not see the danger of this type of citta since it is accompanied by indifferent feeling and thus less obvious. However, all kinds of akusala are dangerous. ******* Nina. #62518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:30 am Subject: addiction to quietness? nilovg Hi James, ( Howard, Connie), James: Nina, on page 15 you wrote: "It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of one's mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet surroundings. It may seem that, when one is in isolation, there is no anger or aversion and that it is easier to analyse one's mental states. However, at such moments there is bound to be clinging to quietness and when there is clinging there is no development of understanding." When I read this I immediately thought to myself, "Nina must have never been on a silent meditation retreat or she wouldn't think this." Nina, have you ever been on a silent meditation retreat? ------- No James, I was not. But for many years I came into close contact with meditators. During the years I lived in Thailand I visited centers with Kh Sujin, and many times people questioned her outlook since she was unique in her outlook. People did not agree, I heard many discussions. There were different opinions about mindfulness of breath. Some people thought that it was sufficient to follow the movement of the abdomen. It seemed they were clinging to a quick result, a shortcut to nibbaana. They were excited to follow their blood running in their veins, or follow the digestion tract, etc. This was in a center I visited alone. I had enough when I heard that. In some centers books are forbidden, also reading suttas. I visited in India Sarah's teacher Munindra, in a center where people clothed in white were walking slowly. I asked the teacher why they were doing this and he said: he let people do this because they liked this. He himself was not so inclined to promote this. To be fair, in some centers they also give Dhamma lessons, teach Abhidhamma. In the beginning of my stay in Thailand I considered whether I should retire for a while near a monastery where I had met the abbot. Lodewijk and I looked at the dwellings that were like a monk's kutis, and I knew: this is not daily life, this is not for me. ---------- James: Have you ever really been submerged in quietness for an extended period of time? If so, you would know that rather than being removed from anger and aversion, there is plenty of anger and aversion!!! ... From my experience and those I have communicated with, there is nothing addictive or attachment oriented about it (maybe Howard could add his input??). -------- N: When there is aversion, by what is it conditioned? By attachment. Attachment to what? To a peaceful mind. People go to a special place because they want something, even if it means that they do not get it as easily as they thought at first. They have aversion at first but they are thinking that being in a center will help them. This may be with attachment. Seeing now and seeing in a center is the same. Having aversion now or aversion in a center is the same. When will they see that it is the same? They will understand if they have developed understanding of the world in the ariyan sense: the world appearing through the eyes, the ears and the other doorways. The world in the ariyan sense is explained in the suttas. It seems that they get to know themselves in a center, but the big question is: do they come to understand attachment, anger, seeing hearing as conditioned realities? Or do they only notice phenomena, and that is all? Or name them? Or think about them? In some centers they are taught to suppress defilements, instead of being aware of them as only a conditioned phenomenon, not belonging to anyone. ----------- J: ... Did the Buddha ever teach his monks or laypeople to stay away from quiet surroundings because they were addictive? No, actually he encouraged the exact opposite- he encouraged his monks to seek out quiet surroundings. He praised his monks when they were quiet and attentive. ------ N: yes, if they had inclinations for jhana, true jhana. If they were ripe for it. Not so Meghiya. Remember the Meghiya sutta: Verses of Uplift, Udana, Ch IV: Meghiya wanted to retire to a quiet place, and he asked the Buddha permission three times, but the Buddha asked him to wait. At the third time he was allowed and went there. He was assailed by defilements. The Buddha then spoke to him about five conditions favorable for maturity of the heart's release, such as good friendship, being virtuous according to the monk's siila, serious talk, suitable for opening up the heart, about wanting little, etc. virtue, concentration and wisdom...knowledge and insight of release... being resolute in energy... being endowed with insight... with the ariyan penetration which goes on to penetrate the perfect ending of dukkha... (Connie, the Co by Masefield; II, p. 567). ----------- When speaking about meditation, people will mostly answer: they learn mindfulness of breathing. But this is a most subtle, intricate subject. It is not as simple as some people believe. That is why I shall quote a study from Rob K's forum. We cannot deal with this subject in a few posts. It has to be carefully studied. Howard, I take the opportunity to ask a few questions to you. You appreciated Rob K 's take on Wu Wei. You explained before, but I have forgotten what it is. Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you learn during your meditation sessions. What exactly, when and how? What are you meditating on during those two hours? ****** Nina. #62519 From: "rahula_80" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:35 am Subject: Pacittiya 37 rahula_80 Hi, Pacittiya 37: Should any bhikkhu chew or consume staple or non-staple food at the wrong time, it is to be confessed. BMC by Thanissaro Bhikkhu roughly gave the stories behind each rule. However, there were no stories for this rule. Anybody knows the origin story why this rule come about? Latukikopama Sutta (MN 66) shows that at first, monks are allowed to eat the whole day. Then, the Buddha stop the afternoon meal, latter the dinner. This sutta suggest one of their benefits was that they prevented bhikkhus from going for alms in the dark. However, if this is the sole reason, I don't see why the afternoon and dinner meal has to be stopped. Monks would have gone out for alms before dark for their dinner. Logically thinking, I believe the reason for this rule is to avoid misperception that monks eats all day, from alms, without working for it. But, I am more interested in the textual reason. Best wishes, Rahula #62520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:51 am Subject: Rob's forum on Mindfulness of Breathing, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, I shall quote parts of Rob K's forum on a study of Mindfulness of Breathing. Some old dsg posts are used and also other materials are added and arranged. ---------------------- QUOTES: Mike: Aa.napaa.nasati seems to be nearly universally recognized (in the last few decades anyway) as a kind of 'vipassanaa meditation', or satipa.t.thaana bhaavanaa (as opposed to samatha bhaavanaa). It seems to me though that aa.naa.paa.naa--inhaled and exhaled breath--is a concept or designation for a great many different, sequential naamaa and ruupaa. Scott: Here's a portion of the Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta: QUOTE Aanaapaanasati bhikkhave bhaavitaa bahulikataa cattaaro satipa.t.thaane paripurenti. Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa baavitaa bahulikataa satta bojjhange paripurenti. Satta bojjhangaa bhaavitaa bahulikataa vijjaavimutti paripurenti. Why does the Buddha give the instruction and description of mindfulness of breath? How does this fit with the overall sense of satipa.t.thaana? Why the direction to sit and focus on breath in this way, given your statement above, which I think is correct, that "breath" is "a concept or designation for a great many different, sequential naamaa and ruupaa? And how is one to understand this, given that there is no one to sit, and postures are also conceptual? "Bahulikata," as I find, has meanings such as "practised frequently," and "in application." The word "bahu" means "to strengthen." "Paripaceti" means "to bring to maturity," or "to cause to ripen, to develop." What is the way to understand this? The above quote says that the development and cultivation of mindfulness of breathing fulfills the four establishments of mindfulness, and more. What exactly does that mean? Scott. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7544 Jonathan Abbott writes: Let's consider for a moment mindfulness of breathing. We all breathe all day long, but breath is usually not an object of our attention. However, when it is, is there any reason why it should not be possible to experience the hardness or softness, heat or cold, appearing through the body door, that we normally take for breath? A moment of cognising one of the realities that we normally take for 'breath' is surely a moment of satipatthana with 'breath' as object. This would not seem to require a special time, place or posture. In a recent post you mentioned the passage from the Satipatthana Sutta on mindfulness of breathing. (This is an extremely difficult sutta to understand, but we need not go into that here.) To my understanding, that particular passage is an instruction specially directed to those who were already adept at samatha of a high level with breath as object. In the words of the commentary (p. 54 of Soma Thera's translation), "This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing". So when it talks about having gone to a quiet place, adopting a classic 'meditation' posture, long and short in-breaths and out- breaths etc it is describing the established practice of the very audience to whom it was primarily directed. ********** (end quotes) Nina. #62521 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:04 pm Subject: Re: relatives fishes leoaive Hi It is kind of a big question. On one hand relatives fishes staying together is good, but someone with a net can catch all of them. On another hand if they are separate then they can not learn and someone with the hook can catch and other do not see and have the same problem. I see also other side of story, when Buddha is saying some Suttas, where the first part has meaning and second part too. I would guess that metal is used for hooks, so it is not really Buddha teaching. Where other part is trees and end of perceptions, which is Buddha teaching. With Metta Leo Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3) #62522 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:58 pm Subject: Near and Far Enemies of brahma-viharas kelvin_lwin Hi Jon and James, Kel: I came across this section today and since you were discussing metta/lobha before. I believe this points out why you have to practice all 4 to cover all the bases :) Vsm 98-101 98. And here each one has two enemies, one near and one far. The divine abiding of lovingkindness has greed as its near enemy, since both share in seeing virtues. Greed behaves like a foe who keeps close by a man, and it easily finds an opportunit. So lovingkindess should be well protected from it. And ill will, which is dissimilar to the similar greed, is its far enemy like a foe ensconced in a rock wilderness. So lovingkindess must be practised free from fear of that; for it is not possible to practise lovingkindess and feel anger simultaneously. 99. Compassion has grief based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in seeing failure. Such grief has been described in the way beginning.'When a man either regrads as privation failure to obtain visibile objects cognizable by the eye that are sought after, desired, agreeable, gratifying and associated with worldliness, or when he recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased and changed, then grief arises in him. Such grief as this is called grief based on the home life. And cruelty, which is dissimilar to the similar grief, is its far enemy. So compassion must be practised free from fear of that; for it is not possible to practise compassion and be cruel to breathing things simultaneously. 100. Gladness has joy based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in seeing sucess. Such joy has been described in the way beginning, 'When a man either regards as gain the obtaining of visible objects cognizable by the eye that are sought .. and associated with worldliness, or recalls those formerly obtained that are past, ceased and changed, then joy airses in him. Such joy as this is called joy based on the home life'. And aversion, which is dissimilar to the similar joy, is its far enemy. So gladness should be practised free from fear of that; for it is not possible to practise gladness and be discontented with remote abodes and things connected with the higher profitableness simultaneously. 101. Equanimity has the equanimity of unknowing based on the home life as its near enemy, since both share in ignoring faults and virtues. Such unknowing has been described in the way beginning, 'On seeing a visible object with the eye equanimity arises in the foolish infautated ordinary man, in the untaught ordinary man who has not conquerered his limitations, who has not conquerered future [kamma] result, who is unperceiving of danger. Such equanimity as this does not surmount the visible object. Such equanimity as this is called equanimity based on the home life'. And gree and resentment, which are dissimilar to the similar unknowing, are its far enemies. Therefore equanimity mus be practised free from fear of that; for it is not possible to look on with equanimity and be inflamed with greed or be resentful simultaneously. - Kel #62523 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher jonoabb Hi Scott There have been other messages, including one from Nina, since I first wrote which I think have covered most of the questions you've raised. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Well, I'd never even thought of it that way, you know, that the formal > student/teacher relationship is not a part of the Theravadin > tradition. Please say more about this, Jon, I'm interested. The teachings speak often of the value of association with the right person (as one of the factors for developing insight), but not of formally putting oneself under a teacher. To my understanding, the right person' is anyone from whom one hears the teachings explained in a way that helps understanding of the true dhamma to arise. > I'll seem like a bit of a sheep I guess, but pretty well everyone I > seem to interact with mentions his or her teacher or teachers at one > point or another. So part of it is that I assumed this must be de > rigeur. Well for many people things turned out that way, that at some stage they learnt much from a particular person who may be a recognised 'teacher'. But that sort of thing happens as much by force of circumstances as for any other reason. Then there are those like Han Tun who have never had a close association with a particular person. > Secondly, I'd been watching in the local "scene" for any sign of a > Theravadin bhikkhu to speak with from time to time about the Dhamma, > preferrably one who knew Abhidhamma and paali and with whom I could > learn. You know, if you get right down to it, I'm sort of isolated > and want a way to structure my learning a lot more than I have been up > to now. This is especially true of the paali, since I'd like to > discuss points of grammar face-to-face: its quicker. If there's someone available in your neighbourhood, by all means spend time with him ;-)). No question about that. > I'd like to hear what you mean by "in your position," if you don't > mind. I'd kind of thought it was a good thing to find a "formal" > kalyaanamitta. I have access to you and the gang here, of course (and > I must say that the quality of Dhamma scholarship going on here, with > all the beautiful disagreements included, seems hard to match - well, > I haven't found a match.) And I kind of thought that I was a guy with > a whole lot to learn. I just meant as someone genuinely interested in the teachings and thinking of formally putting himself under a teacher. All of us are people who have a whole lot to learn ;-)) > May I ask your meaning when you suggest that "it may in fact limit > one's access to other sources of the Dhamma?" The only one that comes > to mind might be pa~n~na, because, as you mentioned or alluded to > earlier the development of understanding does not require a "teacher." I was referring to the same kind of things others have mentioned. If one's chosen teacher is not receptive to certain areas of discussion or study, or disapproves of contact with certain persons, it can put one in an invidious position. > This is important to me, Jon, so please be as frank as you wish. I've > been aloof from matters "spiritual" as if holding myself in abeyance > for long enough and I don't wish to waste time. I've come to > appreciate your thoughtful consideration of things and so, in this, > please be a friend and tell me what you think. I hope the above is useful, Scott. Happy to discuss further. Jon #62524 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/17/06 2:44:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Howard, I take the opportunity to ask a few questions to you. You > appreciated Rob K 's take on Wu Wei. You explained before, but I have > forgotten what it is. > > Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you learn during > your meditation sessions. What exactly, when and how? > > What are you meditating on during those two hours? > ======================= Thank you for your questions, Nina. :-) The term 'wu wei' is Chinese for "non-doing". It refers, I believe, to action free of any sense of grasping or self. Basically it is action based on selfless chanda - action grounded in what the Chinese (and Japanese) call "no mind". As I understand it, it is activity that is not interfered with by the sense of a self who acts or wills. Much that RobK writes carries the flavor of that. If I'm not mistaken, he had an interest in Zen years ago. I regret that I have nothing readily available of his to quote to you as an example. Nina, you ask "Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you learn during your meditation sessions. What exactly, when and how?" I have found that my formal sitting meditation, especially my retreat "insight-experience" of a number of years ago, has affected me (and currently affects me) in daily life in several ways: 1) I no longer have the slightest belief in a self, or soul, or fixed core/identity in the conventional person - though the *sense* of self definitely remains along with plenty of concomitant craving, aversion, and attachment (LOL!), 2) I have *far* more equanimity than previously, being a much more "lighthearted" and easygoing person with a better sense of humor, 3) I am better able to be clearly aware of what is happening "in the moment" than previously and far more successful at introspection, 4) The fear of (my) death has *drastically* diminished, and 5) My confidence in and devotion to the Buddha and his Dhamma have become stronger than ever. As for my meditation, I *wish* I could say that it were 2 hours a day. ;-) It should be, but it is not. Most often, it is just one sitting a day - though *occasionally* two, and it is only for 45 minutes per sitting. (I used to do an hour sitting, but 45 minutes now seems better.) I *am* very regular in not letting a day go by without a sitting, and in maintaining ongoing mindfulness much of the rest of the time. During a 45-minute sitting, I begin with attending mostly to the breath sensations at the nostrils. Very shortly, pleasant bodily sensations arise along with a growing calm. When that reaches a degree of stability and "loveliness", I enlarge the domain of attention to (sensations within) the entire body, though still keeping the breath sensations primary. After a while, I am able to expand the attention to include *sights, sounds, odors, and mental objects for easy investigation, but with bodily sensations still primary. With the degree of calm and peace in place at that point, dhammas can be observed far more clearly, and whatever arises is pretty much "as good" as anything else. There are variations, of course, from sitting to sitting. Sometimes a sitting is more of an absorptive one, where the mental landscape becomes empty (at least for a time) except for the peace and pleasantness. With metta, Howard * Though I meditate with eyes closed, "internal" visual sensations arise. #62525 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:31 pm Subject: Re: Rob's forum on Mindfulness of Breathing, no 1. matheesha333 Hi Nina, Jon, > Jonathan Abbott writes: > > Let's consider for a moment mindfulness of breathing. We all breathe > all day long, but breath is usually not an object of our attention. > However, when it is, is there any reason why it should not be > possible to experience the hardness or softness, heat or cold, > appearing through the body door, that we normally take for breath? A > moment of cognising one of the realities that we normally take for > 'breath' is surely a moment of satipatthana with 'breath' as object. > This would not seem to require a special time, place or posture. > > In a recent post you mentioned the passage from the Satipatthana > Sutta on mindfulness of breathing. (This is an extremely difficult > sutta to understand, but we need not go into that here.) > > To my understanding, that particular passage is an instruction > specially directed to those who were already adept at samatha of a > high level with breath as object. In the words of the commentary (p. > 54 of Soma Thera's translation), "This is the portal to emancipation > of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing". > > So when it talks about having gone to a quiet place, adopting a > classic 'meditation' posture, long and short in-breaths and out- > breaths etc it is describing the established practice of the very > audience to whom it was primarily directed. > ********** M: Well people who are adept in samatha don't pop out of nowhere. They have to make a start somewhere as well. Looking at them as if they are from Mars and boxing them away doesnt make samatha practice any less relavent to our practice. It might not be insight practice, but clearly development of samatha is a very important part of the path. The Buddha said he taught samatha, to those who had insight and knew only vipassana. This suggests that the development of samatha, quite seperated from vipassana practice, is a very relavent part of practice. The suttas talk about it and commentaries like the visuddhimagga talk about it. One would neglect this at ones peril. with metta Matheesha #62526 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:23 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,95 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 95. (20) Material states that assist immaterial states, and immaterial states that assist material states by not having sameness of physical basis, etc. are 'dissociation conditions'. This is threefold as conascent, postnascent, and prenascent, for this is said: 'Conascent profitable aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for the kinds of materiality originated by consciousness. Postnascent profitable [mental] aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for this prenascent body' (P.tn.1,176). But in the analysis of the conascent in the indeterminate clause it is said: 'At the moment of rebirth-linking, resultant indeterminate aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed. The aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for the physical basis, and the physical basis for the aggregates' (P.tn.1,176). But the prenascent should be understood as the eye faculty, etc., and the physical basis, according as it is said: 'The prenascent eye base [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for eye consciousness ... The body base is a condition, as dissociation condition, for body consciousness. The physical basis [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for resultant-indeterminate and functional-indeterminate aggregates.... The physical basis [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for profitable aggregates.... The physical basis [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for unprofitable aggregates' (P.tn.1,176-77). ************************** 95. ekavatthukaadibhaavaanupagamena upakaarakaa ruupino dhammaa aruupiina.m dhammaana.m, aruupinopi ruupiina.m vippayuttapaccayo. so sahajaatapacchaajaatapurejaatavasena tividho hoti. vutta~nheta.m ``sahajaataa kusalaa khandhaa cittasamu.t.thaanaana.m ruupaana.m vippayuttapaccayena paccayo. pacchaajaataa kusalaa khandhaa purejaatassa imassa kaayassa vippayuttapaccayena paccayo''ti (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.434). abyaakatapadassa pana sahajaatavibha"nge ``pa.tisandhikkha.ne vipaakaabyaakataa khandhaa ka.tattaaruupaana.m vippayuttapaccayena paccayo. khandhaa vatthussa. vatthu khandhaana.m vippayuttapaccayena paccayo''tipi (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.434) vutta.m. purejaata.m pana cakkhundriyaadivatthuvaseneva veditabba.m. yathaaha -- ``purejaata.m cakkhaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa...pe0... kaayaayatana.m kaayavi~n~naa.nassa vippayuttapaccayena paccayo. vatthu vipaakaabyaakataana.m kiriyaabyaakataana.m khandhaana.m...pe0... vatthu kusalaana.m khandhaana.m...pe0... vatthu akusalaana.m khandhaana.m vippayuttapaccayena paccayo''ti (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.434). #62527 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > But whether we agree on this point or not, I think do we at least agree > that there are occasions in the day when metta arises, when we think or > act with spontaneous good-will towards someone, without any selfish > interest, and that at such moments the characteristic of kusala in > general or of metta in particular can be known? Nothing controversial > here, surely?? ;-)) > > Jon > Sure, that CAN happen. When speaking hypothetically we could say almost anything COULD happen. I think the real question is how often that will happen and how to create the conditions so that it will happen more often. Metta, James #62528 From: connie Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:09 pm Subject: Re: Addiction to quietness? nichiconn Dear fellow addicts, Nina: Remember the Meghiya sutta: Verses of Uplift, Udana, Ch IV: Meghiya wanted to retire to a quiet place, and he asked the Buddha permission three times, but the Buddha asked him to wait. At the third time he was allowed and went there. He was assailed by defilements. The Buddha then spoke to him about five conditions favorable for maturity of the heart's release, such as good friendship, being virtuous according to the monk's siila, serious talk, suitable for opening up the heart, about wanting little, etc. virtue, concentration and wisdom...knowledge and insight of release... being resolute in energy... being endowed with insight... with the ariyan penetration which goes on to penetrate the perfect ending of dukkha... ----------- The commentary on the Meghiya sutta is beautiful and addresses, i think, a lot of other recent threads as well, but arent the teachings all of one taste anyway? (nina, sancrosankt must refer to dinosaurs and other relics.) but excerpts from this long (and sarah will kill me for even this much!) section of the venerable Dhammapaala's Paramatthadiipanii naama Udaana.t.thakathaa on the Meghiyasutta.m as given by Masefield (with, no doubt, connie's typos): p571 But why did the Lord give his permission for him to go there? He gave permission realising that that one, even had he not been given permission, would have still gone leaving him behind, and that he might have entertained the fallacy that "It is, methinks, out of a desire for a servant that the Lord does not allow me to go", which would have conduced to his long-term detriment and dukkha. So the Lord, in teaching Dhamma that was suited to him as he was (still) seated, after informing him of what had occurred to him, next said "When liberation of heart is not fully mature, Meghiya" and so on. Herein: Is not fully mature (aparipakkaaya): has not reached full maturity. When liberation of heart (cetovimuttiyaa): when liberation of heart (cetaso vimuttiyaa, resolution of compound) from the defilements. For at the stage previous to (path attainment) there is liberation of heart from the defilements through the limb therefor as well as through suppression, (whereas) at the stage subsequent thereto that through extirpation as well as through tranquillization. This same liberation has already been talked of in detail above; it is therefore to be understood in the manner stated there. As vipassanaa is seizing the womb of the path, is reaching full maturity, when one's aim in this regard has become fully mature, has blossomed, by way of those things bringing liberation to full maturity, (such vipassanaa) is known as "liberation of heart's full maturity"; in the absence thereof, it is not fully mature. But which things are those bringing liberation to full maturity? By way of their effecting purification of the faculties of faith and so on, 15 (such) things are to be understood. For this is what is said: "When one avoids individuals lacking faith, when one pursues, when one resorts to, when one sits round paying homage to, individuals with faith, when one reviews suttantas inspiring serenity[221]-in these three modes is the faculty of faith purified. When one avoids indolent individuals, when one pursues, when one resorts to, when one sits round paying homage to, individuals with energy initiated, when one reviews right efforts-in these three modes is the faculty of energy purified. When one avoids individuals of vapid mindfulness, when one pursues, when one resorts to, when one sits round paying homage to, individuals in whom mindfulness is present, when one reviews the foundations of mindfulness-in these three modes is the faculty of mindfulness purified. When one avoids unconcentrated individuals, when one pursues, when one resorts to, when one sits round paying homage to, concentrated individuals, when one reviews the jhaanas and releases-in these three modes is the faculty of concentration purified. When one avoids individuals of poor insight, when one pursues, when one resorts to, when one sits round paying homage to, individuals possessing insight, when one reviews the behaviour of profound knowledge-in these three modes is the faculty of insight purified. Hence, when one avoids these five individuals, when one pursues, when one resorts to, when one sits round paying homage to, five individuals, when one reviews five suttantas, these five faculties are purified in these 15 modes" (P.ts ii 1). A further 15 things also bringing liberation to full maturity are those faculties with that of faith as their fifth, these five perceptions partaking of penetration, viz. perception of impermanence, perception of dukkha, perception of not-self, perception of abandoning, perception of fading away, (and) the possession of a lovely friend, the restraint of morality, ultra-effacement, the initiation of energy (and) penetrative insight. As to these, the Teacher, skilled in taming those capable of being guided, first says "Five things conduce to full maturity", indicating, in the present case, owing to the disposition of the elder Meghiya, who was (himself) one capable of being guided, (only) the (latter five) things bringing liberation to full maturity, such as possession of a lovely friend and so on, and then says "In this connection, Meghiya, a monk is one with a lovely friend" and so forth detailing these. Herein: (1) One with a lovely friend (kalyaa.namitto): since a lovely, auspicious, beautiful, friend is his, he is "one with a lovely friend". The individual for whom there is a friend, endowed with good qualities such as morality and so on, who is of service in all manner of ways, viz. "A slayer of evil, an assigner of well-being", is alone "one with a lovely friend". Since he is accompanied by (saha ayati), proceeds along with, the aforementioned lovely (kayaan.na) individuals in all bodily postures, being never without them, he is "one with a lovely companion" (kalyaa.nasahaayo). [222] Since he proceeds, by way of both mind and body, in a state that slopes, tends, inclines towards lovely individuals alone, he is "one with a lovely intimate". By means of this triad of words, he gives rise to regard with respect to association with a lovely friend. There is, in the present case, this characterisation of the lovely friend-in this connection, the lovely friend is one possessed of faith, one possessed of morality, one possessed of hearing, one possessed of liberality, one possessed of energy, one possessed of mindfulness, one possessed of concentration, one possessed of insight. Herein, through his possession of faith, he has faith in the Tathaagata's enlightenment and in the fruition of deeds, as a result of which he fails to give up seeking well-being where beings are concerned which constitutes the root-cause of perfect enlightenment; through his possession of morality he is, to his fellow Brahmacaarins, one who is dear, charming, revered, one to be cultivated, a reprover, one reproachful of that which is evil, a speaker, one patiently attending to the speech (of others); through his possession of hearing, he is a producer of profound talks connected with teh (four) truths and dependent co-arising and so on; through his possession of liberality, he is one wanting little, content, secluded, without associations, through his possession of energy, he is one with energy initiated, one practising for the well-being of beings; through his possession of mindfulness, he is one in whom mindfulness is present; through his possession of concentration, he is non-distracted, one whose heart is concentrated; (whilst) through his possession of insight, he understand things unequivocally. Whilst seeking out, through mindfulness, the destinies of skilled states, he comes to know as it really is, through insight, that which is to the well-being and detriment of beings, whereupon, having become one-pointed in heart therein through concentration, he through his energy deters beings from that which is to their detriment and then incites them as regards that which is to their well-being, for which reason: "He who is dear, revered, one to be cultivated, a speaker, one patiently attending to the speech (of others) and a producer of profound talk would not incite (others) on the wrong occasion" (A iv 32) was said. : this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on account of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liberation of heart's full maturity by way of causing there to be purified (the faculties of) faith and so on that are as yet unpurified. And, in this connection, the great service and pre-eminence of the lovely friend is to be understood by way of such sutta-passages as "For this, Aananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend" and so (uttered by the Lord) to the Treasurer of the Dhamma when stating "This forms half, Lord, of the Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend" after having twice put a stop to this with "Do not (speak) thus, Aananda" (S v 2). p579 Pasturage is, moreover, threefold, viz. pasturage in terms of support, pasturage in terms of guarding, pasturage in terms of anchoring. p581 Suited to opening up the heart (cetovivara.nasappaayaa): it is "suited to opening up the heart" since it is suited to samatha and vipassanaa reckoned as the opening up the heart, through setting at a distance the hindrances that conceal the heart, or alternatively since it is suited, of service, to opening up, or to making manifest, that same consciousness associated with samatha and vipassanaa. [227] Then, in order to indicate that bringing of aversion and so on as a result of which this talk is referred to as that "concerned with ultra-effacement" and that "suited to opening up the heart", there is next said "To complete aversion and so forth. Herein: to complete aversion (ekantanibbidaaya): to the purpose of one's becoming quite certainly averse to that dukkha belonging to the cycle. To fading away, to cessation (viraagaaya nirodhaaya): to the purpose of the fading away and to the purpose of ceasing of that same (dukkha). To subsiding (upasamaaya): to the subsiding of all defilements. To superknowledge (abhi~n~naaya): to the purpose of acquiring superknowledge of all that is capable (of being known) by way of superknoledge. To awakening (sambodhaaya): to awakening to the four paths. To nibbaana (nibbaanaaya): to that nibbaana that is without remnant of substrate. For, as to these, it is vipassanna that is spoken of by the first three terms, the path by (the next) two, nibbaana by (the last) two. He indicates that this whole super-human state, which starts with samatha and vipassanaa and has nibbaana as its culmination, becomes effective for the one gaining the ten occasions for talk. p588 Talk on seclusion (pavivekakathaa): in this connection there are three (types) of separation (vivekaa), viz. physical separation, mental separation, and substrate separation. Talk on non-association (asa.msaggakathaa): in this connection there are five (types of) association, viz. association by way of hearing, association by way of seeing, association by way of conversation, association by way of enjoyment, association by way of body. As to these: p590 As regard talk on morality (siilakathaa) and so on, morality is twofold, viz. that which is mundane and that which is supermundane. Herein, that which is mundane is the four (kinds of) morality consisting of purification, such as the Paatimokkha restraint and so on, what which is supermundane the morality associated with the path and the morality associated with the fruitions. Similarly, it is the eight attainments which, together with access(-concentration), form the basis of vipassanaa that is concentration that is mundane, whereas it is that which is supermundane that is associated with the path that is, in this connection, called "concentration". Similarly, insight can be mundane, being that consisting of that which has been heard, that consisting of reasoning, that associated with jhaana, and the knowledge associated with vipassanaa; whereas, in this connection, it is to be taken specifically as insight associated with vipassanaa, viz. that insight associated with the paths and that insight associated with the fruitions, (both of) which are supermundane. p592 Skilled states (kusalaana.m dhammaana.m): states associated with the paths and their fruitions, together with the (eighteen great) vipassanaas, that are skilled (kusalaana.m) in the sense that things that are vile (kucchita) are shaken (salana) and so on by them in the sense of being blameless. p594 the simile of the paddy-reaper. For a man had taken up a sickle and was reaping paddy in a paddyfield, commmencing from one end. Then some cows entered by bursting through his fence. He set aside the sickle and, taking a rod, drove those cows out via that same path, restored his fence to its original condition, once more took up the sickle and reaped paddy. Herein, the Teaching of the Buddha(s) is to be regarded as the paddyfield, the meditator as the paddy-reaper, insight as the sickle, the time of performing work associated with vipassanaa as the time of reaping, the meditation subject associated with that which is foul as the rod, restraint as the fence, lust's hasty arising stemming from negligence through want of calm assessment as the entering of the cows by bursting the fence, the time of once more initiating work associated with vipassanaa after suppressing lust with the meditation subject associated with that which is foul as once more reaping the paddy, starting from the place at which he had been stood when he set aside the sickle, took the rod, drove out the cows via the same path by which they had entered and then restored the fence to its original condition. This is the application of the simile in this connection: that it was with reference to the method of cultivation being like that that "The foul is to be cultivated for the abandonment of lust" was said. [236] Loving kindness (mettaa): the meditation subject that is loving kindness. For the abandonment of ill will (byaapaadassa pahaanaaya): for the sake of abandoning, in the same manner spoken of, such anger as has arisen. p595 For when the characteristic mark of impermanence is seen, the characteristic of not-self is itself seen; for when one of these three characteristic marks is seen, the remaining pair is itself seen, for which reason "For, for the one perceiving impermanence, perception of not-self becomes anchored" was said. Since the conceit that arises by way of 'I am' is quite fully abandoned when the characteristic mark of not-self is {fully} seen, he said "The one perceiving not-self reaches the uprooting of the conceit of 'I am'." Nibbaana in these seen conditions (di.t.the 'va dhamme nibbaana.m): reaches conditionless parinibbaana in these seen conditions (di.t.the yeva dhamme, resolution of compound), in that same existence. This here is (merely a) brief (account); as for details, however, one should accept the method of cultivation of that which is foul and so on after the manner of that spoken of in the Visuddhimagga (Vism 178ff). Fathoming this matter (etam attha.m viditvaa): knowing this matter, reckoned as the interception, for the venerable Meghiya, of goods in the form of that which is skilled by robbers in the form of wrong thoughts. This Udaana (ima.m udaana.m): gave rise to this Udaana elucidating the perils in failing to dispel, and the advantages in dispelling, thoughts connected with sense-desires and so on. Herein: Petty (khuddaa): base, despicable. Thoughts (vitakkaa): the three evil thoughts of thought connected with sense-desires and so on. For of all thoughts these are, on account of their mean nature, spoken of, in this system, as "petty", as they are in "And he should not do that which is petty" (Khp8 = Sn 145) and so forth. It is thought about relatives and so on that is implied by "subtle", viz., "Thought about one's district, thought about immortality, thought connected with consideration for others, thought connected with gain, respect and renown, thought connected with not being despised" (Vibh 346 = Nd 386). For these thoughts, [237] since they are not coarse like thoughts connected with sense-desires and so forth, are spoken of as "subtle" (sukhumaa) on account of their being, in their own nature, non-gross. When gone along with (anugataa): when pursued by consciousness. For when such a thought arises, consciousness goes along exclusively therewith, on account of (that thought) transplanting it onto it as its object. Anuggataa (when continually coming up) is also (canonical) Pali, meaning anu-u.t.thitaa (when being continually upstanding). Are the mind's elation (cetaso uppilaavaa): bring about an elated stae of mind. The one who fathoms not these thoughts of mind (ete avidvaa manaso vitakke): the one not knowing as they really are, these thoughts (that have arisen) in the mind, such as thought connected with sense-desires and so on, through full understanding by way of knowing, by way of judging and by way of abandoning, as to their sweet taste, peril and the exiting (from same). Onto this and that his careering consciousness darts (huraahura.m dhaavati bhantacitto): on account of the fact of wrong thought not having been abandoned, his unsettled consciousness darts to and fro, zigzags, by way of their sweet taste and so on, onto this object and that by way of "Sometimes onto a sight, sometimes onto a sound" and so forth. Or alternatively, from there to there his careering consciousness darts (huraa hura.m dhaavati bhantacitto): on account of the fact of (such) thoughts not having been fully understood, his mental activity that is of a zigzaging nature through being under the sway of ignorance and craving that are attributable thereto, darts to and fro, meaning runs on, from this world to the next world by way of the taking up and laying down (of bodies). ======= J: ... Did the Buddha ever teach his monks or laypeople to stay away from quiet surroundings because they were addictive? c: maybe not, but read about Meghiya's choice of retreat ;) p568 Inspiring serenity (paasaadika.m): it was "inspring serenity" since it brought serenity to those beholding it on account of the non-sparseness of its trees and the glossiness of its leaves; [218] "pleasing" (manu~n~na.m) on account of its dense shade and on account of the pleasing nature of that part of the world; "delightful" (rama.niiya.m) since it delighted the hearts of those who had entered within it in the sense of generating joy and euphoria. Suitable (ala.m): sufficient, fitting also being the meaning. In need of effort (padhaanatthikassa): in need of cultivation by way of yoga.{13} {p646 n13} Reading yogena with Ce Be Se for text's janaviyogena (separation from (other) folk). There seems no reason why this term should be translated, so long as the reader bear in mind its meaning is ultimately that of endeavour, application, effort, etc. The references listed by PED sv suggest it is comonly used to explain padhaana. p569 [219] Seated himself for the day's rest (dvaavihaara.m nisiidii): seated himself for the sake of the day's rest. And so seated, he had seated himself at the very same place at which there had been the auspicious slab of stone upon which he had previously, over the five hundred births during which he had successively been king, previously been seated, with a retinue of divers dancing girls, when participating in the park's sports. Moreover, it seemed to him, onwards from the time of his seating himself, as if his state of being a recluse had disappeared, .... #62529 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi Sutta- another one! jonoabb Hi Mateesha Thanks for posting this sutta that relates directly to our ongoing thread on samadhi. --- matheesha wrote: > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he > addressed the monks: "Monks!" > > "Yes, lord," the monks responded. > > The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated > monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he > discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & > disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... > perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of > consciousness. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html It would be helpful if you could give some comments in addition to posting the sutta text. For example, you could say what you understand to be the development of concentration in this context. Do you see it as meaning the same as samatha, or something else that is neither samatha nor vipassana? If the latter, perhaps you could give an example. Jon #62530 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 jonoabb Hi Mateesha Another good 'samadhi' sutta! --- matheesha wrote: > SN 35.99 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S iv 80 > CDB ii 1181 > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it > actually is present? > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns > things as they actually are present." > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html As I said in a post sent a moment ago, we'd like to have your comments on the meaning of the sutta. For example, 'discerns things as they really are' is obviously a reference to vipassana. Are you reading the sutta as saying that samadhi is the main condition for panna arising? What kind of samadhi would that be, in your view (based on your understanding of the texts), and how is that samadhi developed? Jon #62531 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:43 pm Subject: Re: black mail scottduncan2 Dear connie, Sukhuma, ukka.t.tha!! "...Nevertheless, a guide to your quest there may be, if I may be so: Foreword - IBHorner. London, Dec. 1967: pviii CR (Naarada/Thein Nyun): As the province of Pa.t.thaana is one of Omniscience, the sphere of Buddhas only (see Intr. p.cii), a faithful exposition of this "ocean of method" could be made intelligible only by someone who had devoted years of deep study and reflexion to it, and had had the additional purpose of finding the right approach to display its vast complexities and unique content in a form that could be grasped by students .... {cut}... if Pa.t.thaana can be understood in the West "as it really is" (yathaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of the Abhidhamma-pi.taka, of the Sutta-pi.taka and of the Vinaya-pi.taka will be assured also." I am weary of children and hoodoos but the above... I read and re-read the passage when I got the text. If only. May effort arise. With loving kindness, Scott. PS. A better response after shower and sleep... #62532 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: > I understand a kalyanamitta to be one "further along" in the > Dhamma [I > leave that for each of us to determine how that phrase is to be > understood] > whom one takes as a teacher or guide (officially or less formally). I don't think there has to be any taking of the person as a teacher or guide. Anyone who helps one in the appropriate way at any time is one's kalyanamitta at that time. The relationship need not be a continuing one. > I would > imagine many here think of Khun Sujin in such a way. I'm sure that's true (and I am one of those). But there are many on this list also whose posts I have benefited from from time to time (including yourself;-)), and at those times these people can be considered as kalyana mittas. Jon #62533 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:58 pm Subject: Vism on samadhi and vipassana (was, Re: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness??) jonoabb Hi Kel and Mateesha Kel, many thanks for posting this series of passages from the Visuddhi-Magga. I know we've covered it before on DSG, but it is well worth coming back to. Mateesha, this is another text dealing with the development of concentration, to add to your collection! Of particular importance to our ongoing discussion is the first part of the extract, a part that is often overlooked I think. It reads: "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds of mundane and supramundane', etc. is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." I read this as saying that the 'Samadhi' section of Vism deals with the samadhi associated with samatha and not the samadhi associated with vipassana, as the latter is developed along with the development of vipassana itself. What's your take on this passage? Jon --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi KenH, Howard and James, > > Thanks for an opening as I'm armed with Visuddhimagga today. > > > > Ken: No, no: please talk to me about the Theravada texts. > > Howard: Fortunately, one need only look > > at the Visuddhimagga to see that is not so! > > III 27 [Development in Brief] > > The method of developing the kind of concentrationa ssociated with > the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds of mundane and > supramundane', etc. is included in the method of developing > understanding (Ch XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that > is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about > how that is to be developed. > > 28. But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has > taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified int he way already > stated. He should server any of the ten impediments that he may > have. He should then approach the good friend, the giver of a > meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty > meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that > he should avoid a monastery unfavorable to the development of > conentrationi and go to live in one that is favorable. Then he > should server the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the > directions for development. This is in brief. > > Kel: I'll add details of the impediments and others in subsequent > posts. > > - Kel #62534 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:28 pm Subject: eCard from Bangkok - Friday morning jonoabb Hi All A brief report on the discussion yesterday (Thursday). Present were Azita, Sukin, Ivan/Matt, Ell, Betty and RobK (joining us from Manila). As you will gather from the list of topics below, the discussion was varied and lively. If we are lucky, friends who were present will each give a summary of one or two of the topics ... Jon - The dung-eating ascetic (who became enlightened) - The monks who vowed not to move until they had attained enlightenment (and who died in the effort) - The paramis (perfections), and whether they can be developed in lifetimes when one hasn't heard the teachings - Conditionality as 'relations between dhammas' - Bhavaasava - The parinnas - The tanha that is 'to be followed' ('sevitabba') - The upadanas and the anagami - Wrong view vs. wrong practice (there can still be WP even after the latent tendency of WV has been eradicated) - Nimitta and the presently arising dhammas - Cula sotapanna and assured destiny (and potential for arising of doubt) - Persons born with 2 roots vs. 3 roots, and potential for development of insight - The 2 kinds of saddha given in the Burmese text, and tanha as the opposite of saddha - The different aspects of panna as listed in Vism - Silabbataparamasa as subtle trying to have awareness, even when no obvious wrong view #62535 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob's forum on Mindfulness of Breathing, no 1. jonoabb Hi Mateesha I'm sorry if my post sounded anti-samatha. It was certainly not meant to be. I have absolutely no doubt that samatha is a very high degree of kusala and that its development was strongly encouraged by the Buddha. --- matheesha wrote: > M: Well people who are adept in samatha don't pop out of nowhere. > They have to make a start somewhere as well. Looking at them as if > they are from Mars and boxing them away doesn't make samatha practice > any less relavent to our practice. ??? You are absolutely right here that developed samatha is the result of the gradual development of samatha. This happens over a long period. To my understanding, the time to start is the present moment. There are moments of samatha occurring in our daily life. Is this how you see it too? > It might not be insight practice, but clearly development of samatha > is a very important part of the path. The Buddha said he taught > samatha, to those who had insight and knew only vipassana. This > suggests that the development of samatha, quite seperated from > vipassana practice, is a very relavent part of practice. The suttas > talk about it and commentaries like the visuddhimagga talk about it. > One would neglect this at ones peril. Heavens above!, I am not suggesting that samatha be neglected! I was commenting on a particular passage, namely, the passage on anapanasati in the kaya section of the Satipatthana Sutta. I think that that passage (like some others I can think of) describes the development of insight by those who are already 'devoted to meditation on breathing' and accustomed to a particular lifestyle as described in the sutta. As such it may not be describing you and me as we find ourselves at this stage of our lives (but that is not to say we can not learn something from it). Your views may differ ;-)) If they do, I hope you'll share them with us. As regards the relevance of samatha bhavana to the development of insight, which you touch on above, this is a whole other issue but I'm always happy to discuss (if you have the time ;-)). Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7544 Jonathan Abbott writes: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Let's consider for a moment mindfulness of breathing. We all breathe all day long, but breath is usually not an object of our attention. However, when it is, is there any reason why it should not be possible to experience the hardness or softness, heat or cold, appearing through the body door, that we normally take for breath? A moment of cognising one of the realities that we normally take for 'breath' is surely a moment of satipatthana with 'breath' as object. This would not seem to require a special time, place or posture. In a recent post you mentioned the passage from the Satipatthana Sutta on mindfulness of breathing. (This is an extremely difficult sutta to understand, but we need not go into that here.) To my understanding, that particular passage is an instruction specially directed to those who were already adept at samatha of a high level with breath as object. In the words of the commentary (p. 54 of Soma Thera's translation), "This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing". So when it talks about having gone to a quiet place, adopting a classic 'meditation' posture, long and short in-breaths and out- breaths etc it is describing the established practice of the very audience to whom it was primarily directed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #62536 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:37 pm Subject: Re: Scott 's question and more! sukinderpal Dear Sarah, As I said to you, I have a hard time recalling the things said during the discussions. But I have been thinking about the topic of Parami which Robert brought up yesterday. He asked about (which he heard from me) K. Sujin's idea that the arising of some kusala cittas though it may not be the development of parami, may however accumulate and serve as a support for the development of parami. The term I used was, `parami of parami'. I myself am not so clear about this, so please correct me where I am wrong. It has often been pointed out that, the parami is developed only if panna were to arise to *know* the particular dhamma, otherwise it would only accumulate as `habit'. I have wondered about the case of the bodhisatta, during those lifetimes where there was no Sasana, and had come to the conclusion that he probably did what he did with little or no thought about himself. That he was mostly thinking about the welfare of others, and at other times he sincerely saw the danger in attachment and aversion. And this was possible purely because of his great panna and already developed parami. Apparently yesterday (and I had never thought about this), K. Sujin seemed to have implied that even as savakas, there can be the development of parami in the same way. And this is due to having heard the teachings in this and/or previous lifetimes. I guess there is also the fact of having previously understood and appreciated the significance of the Parami, such that one may have developed the attitude towards these dhammas quite "different" from peoples of other religions and beliefs. Perhaps other faiths do good with full force of `self view' whereas as followers of Dhamma, one may have instances not to think in terms of `self' and `other'?? :-/ In any case, K. Sujin also reminded us about the uselessness of being overly concerned about the development of parami. I guess that is because in this matter, we are liable to think of how `I' can develop parami, and this would be self-defeating. I look forward to this afternoon session and we can perhaps discuss more about this there? Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear All, (Betty*,Matt*, Sukin* & Jon*) > > Following Azita's lead, I'll just report on one question and that was > Scott's question on the qualities of a teacher one should look for. #62537 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:46 pm Subject: Re: addiction to quietness? buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, ( Howard, Connie), > > No James, I was not. But for many years I came into close contact > with meditators. During the years I lived in Thailand I visited > centers with Kh Sujin, and many times people questioned her outlook > since she was unique in her outlook. People did not agree, I heard > many discussions. Thanks for your explanation. After all, I just wanted an explanation- I don't want to debate or belabor the point. The book is written, the words are in the book and nothing is going to change that. I understand your perspective, as it is also the perspective shared by Jon and Sarah. And I agree, partly, with what you are saying. Meditation which is not done in the spirit of wu-wei (non-doing) is an impediment to the path; I agree with that. However, as the saying goes, it isn't necessary to `throw the baby out with the bath water' (just because one aspect is corrupt, that doesn't mean to get rid of the whole thing). The simple fact is that the Buddha did teach meditation. The meditation that the Buddha taught was to be incorporated as a natural part of our daily lives. The monks, after they ate, were to spend the day's abiding in meditation. It was the natural way for them to spend their days. During the rains retreat, the monks were not to travel over delicate fields; thus, they spent their time in meditation. During Uposatha Days, when lay people attended the monastery to observe the eight precepts, listen to dhamma talks, and donate to the monks, during the remaining time they were to spend the time in meditation. Even after the Buddha achieved enlightenment, he spent the majority of his time in meditation. Meditation isn't a means to an end, it is a natural way of being. There is absolutely nothing intrinsically unnatural about meditation. However, when one meditates with a goal in mind then it does become corrupt. When the meditation is done to feel calm "Oh, I'm so stressed out! I need to meditate", when the meditation is done to impress other people "Oh, people will think I am super cool and exotic if I meditate!", when the meditation is done to escape from reality "Life just really sucks, I need to meditate it away!", or when the meditation is done to achieve supernormal powers "Oh, wouldn't it be great to read people's minds or fly through the air! I need to meditate."; all of these cases of meditation is for the wrong reasons. However, there are right reasons to meditate. I would have liked to see you present the subject in a more balanced manner. But, again, that is neither here nor there. The book is written and it is over. Thanks, Nina, for taking the time to respond to my question. Metta, James #62538 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Near and Far Enemies of brahma-viharas buddhatrue Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Jon and James, > > Kel: I came across this section today and since you were discussing > metta/lobha before. I believe this points out why you have to > practice all 4 to cover all the bases :) > Thanks for sharing this information. Very important to consider. Metta, James #62539 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, I only have time for a few brief comments, but let me try. I know my earlier message made little sense to you:-). --- han tun wrote: > "Atta-vaadupaadaana" .... S: Yes, I brought up the topic for further discussion which I found helpful. The following are my reflections now as I type: .... > > I requested Sarah to explain more on what she meant by > atta-vaadupaadaana is broader than sakkaaya ditthi. <....> > I said that it is difficult for me to accept as > atta-vaadupaadaana the wrong view that considers a pen > or computer or rock which is impermanent as permanent. > I said that this kind of wrong view should be included > under other upaadaana, most probably under > ditthupaadaana. Sarah said she would ask Khun Sujin > and let us know later. ..... S: I believe that anytime any khandhas are taken together as a 'whole', as something existing or lasting, such as when we take a computer or pen for being real (and not just the khandhas taken for oneself or others), it's atta belief. Ditthupadana refers to other kinds of wrong views which of course depend on atta-vaadupaadaana (or specifically sakaaya-di.t.thi) For example, the wrong idea that there's no rebirth or no kamma. ..... > > Then in her message # 62500 Sarah mentioned the list > of topics discussed at the Foundation, which included: > > “atta as opposite of anatta, not just sakkaya ditthi, > so includes taking of the computer for atta. that's > why 'attanavaadupaadaana' broader than sakkaya > ditthi.” .... S: Yes, we read in texts such as the Dhammasangani that the terms are synonymous and it's true that attanavaaadupaadaana is sakkaya ditthi and vice versa, but I believe attanavaadupaadaana is broader*. .... > > Now, the problem is who would take the computer for > atta? And it is also a bit difficult to appreciate > that all that is opposite to anatta are atta. I hope > Sarah would come up with more details about the > discussion on this subject. ..... S: In English, we'd say 'who'd take the computer for self or a self?' and of course the answer is no one. However, I believe that the problem is in our understanding of the term atta which of course is a very anciently used word. Atta doesn't just refer to oneself or self but to a substantial essence or thing or self. The opposite is anatta and as we know, all dhammas are anatta, including the dhammas which make up what we are used to thinking of as a computer. If the wrong view associated with these 'computer' dhammas is not 'atta', how can the correct view of those dhammas be considered as anatta? Please let me know if this makes more or less sense. If there's anything further you (or anyone else) would like me to ask about (or disagree with which is fine!!), pls reply today as we'll have one more chance tomorrow. I do hope you're having a lovely week with your daughter. Metta, Sarah *Another point that came up in our discussions yesterday and the day before was on study with understanding as opposed to just reading the texts (inc. the Abhidhamma and commentary) and sticking to the words without really considering the meaning deeply. I find this helpful and may raise it again. #62540 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:45 pm Subject: Re: addiction to quietness? buddhatrue Hi Again Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: I > would have liked to see you present the subject in a more balanced > manner. > > But, again, that is neither here nor there. The book is written and > it is over. On re-reading this part of my post I realized that I might have given the impression that I am unhappy with this part of your book or with your book in general, and that is definitely not the case! I want to re-emphasize that I am enjoying your book and I find many worthwhile descriptions and explanations (actually, the book is so rich in information that I would hardly categorize it as a primer in Buddhism. It is for the advanced reader, I think.) Metta, James #62541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Friday morning nilovg Dear Jon, This leaves me somewhat confused, since the texts state: also wrong practice is eradicated by the sotaapanna. Could you add just a few words? Perhaps an old habit clung to with lobha, not with wrong view? Nina. Op 18-aug-2006, om 5:28 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Wrong view vs. wrong practice (there can still be WP even after the > latent tendency of WV has been eradicated) #62542 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I will not bother you further with more questions as you have more important points to consider at the Foundation. I will ask you later when you are less occupied. I have faith and complete trust in your wisdom. So it is not necessary that my questions have to be now. We can discuss later. Please have nice discussions. I have a busy week with my daughter. It’s too bad that the departure date for her is approaching very fast. ‘parting is a small death’ Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Please let me know if this makes more or less sense. > If there's anything > further you (or anyone else) would like me to ask > about (or disagree with > which is fine!!), pls reply today as we'll have one > more chance tomorrow. #62543 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:43 am Subject: Meeting with Jon, Sarah and Azita (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, Lodewijk, and others, "K. Sujin on ‘No Trying’" I showed Sarah the computer print-out of the message by James regarding "K. Sujin on ‘No Trying’" and the comments by other members and his replies to those comments. I said I like James’ idea very much, and I also showed Sarah the following excerpts to show that there are cases of “trying” in the literature. . Excerpt from MN 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta (translated by Soma Thera): Like a strong man holding a weaker man by the head or shoulders and restraining, subduing and beating him down, should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his reflection on the source of unskillful thoughts, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind, with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Excerpt from MN 70 Kitagiri sutta (translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return." Excerpt from The Splendour of Enlightenment: a Life of the Buddha by Phra Khantipalo: The Bodhisatta with his back to the trunk of the Bodhi Tree sat facing the East making the firm resolve: “Let only my skin, sinews and bones remain and let the flesh and blood in my body dry up, but not until I attain Supreme Enlightenment will I gave up this meditation seat.” He sat down cross-legged on his invincible seat, whence he could not be dislodged even if thunderbolts were hurled at him in their hundreds. -------------------- Sarah said that I should see more on MN 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta under 'V' in UP’s and also the Kitagiiri Sutta, where “those clenched teeth” have been discussed a lot at DSG. I did that when I got back home, and I found one message by Nina. The following is an excerpt from that message. Excerpt from Nina’s message: N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisatta¹s supreme effort, but this was accompanied by paññaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu referred to in the who has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be accompanied by paññaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with despair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paññaa. -------------------- It is true that if someone just clenches his teeth with despair or fear, and not accompanied by paññaa, it is not the right effort. I can imagine that in such a case there might even be dosa, maana and other unwholesome thoughts. But it also means that if someone clenches his teeth in his efforts, accompanied by paññaa, it is the right effort. And that right effort is “trying”, is it not? Anyway, I am just putting up the points that come to my mind. I am not to say “trying” is good or not good. Those who like trying please try, those who do not want to try please do not try. It is an individual inclination. For me, I believe in trying, and I am trying. When I said I am trying it includes meditation. Just because I am meditating I have nothing against those who do not meditate. When asked whether she trains herself in sitting meditation, Sarah once wrote: “I don't think at all in terms of particular activities in my day to be trained. I consider the only training of importance to be at the present moment regardless of the activity, regardless of the dhammas arising.” And I would be very wrong if I said Sarah was wrong! Respectfully, Han P.S. Dear Sarah and Jon, I think the rest of our discussions were more on my personal life. I think I will stop here my reporting to Nina and Lodewijk and others. #62544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Scott 's question and more! paramis. nilovg Dear Sukin, yes, I remmeber that Kh Sujin said to us before that there is no need to think: I shall develop this or that parami. Any kind of kusala through body, speech or mind can be developed. when there is the pure intention to have less defilement and no thought of any gain for oneself the kusala is a parami. But it is not a matter of thinking about it. Nina. Op 18-aug-2006, om 6:37 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > In any case, K. Sujin also reminded us about the uselessness of being > overly concerned about the development of parami. I guess that is > because in this matter, we are liable to think of how `I' can develop > parami, and this would be self-defeating. #62545 From: "icarofranca" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? icarofranca Hi Howard! Respectfully (very!!!) butting in at your excellent discussion with Nina: > Thank you for your questions, Nina. :-) > The term 'wu wei' is Chinese for "non-doing". It refers, I >believe, to > action free of any sense of grasping or self. Basically it is action >based on > selfless chanda - action grounded in what the Chinese (and Japanese) >call "no > mind". As I understand it, it is activity that is not interfered >with by the > sense of a self who acts or wills. Much that RobK writes carries the >flavor of > that. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- A very good report about Wu-Wei! I´ve just finished to reply at other discussion group (you see...circa five minutes ago!) about these matters! At this very core, Taoism and Buddhist haven´t any common ground, and you will find in some old Suttas (Sutta Nipata´s Vatthugatha, for example) some veiled critiques against taoistic metaphysics, paired on some intriguing questions that suggest an Tao afficionado grilling on Buddha about some matters! At Mindfulness techniques field, Taoism insists on the famous "Dan Tien Concentration" and Breath control techniques much more akin the Yoga than Buddhism. BUT, in certain Zen texts, mainly the SHIN JIN NO MEI, there is an effort on joining Buddha´s Doctrine with the most usual Taoism teaching. Let´s go on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina, you ask "Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you > learn during your meditation sessions. What exactly, when and how?" I have > found that my formal sitting meditation, especially my retreat > "insight-experience" of a number of years ago, has affected me (and currently affects me) in > daily life in several ways: 1) I no longer have the slightest belief in a > self, or soul, or fixed core/identity in the conventional person - though the > *sense* of self definitely remains along with plenty of concomitant craving, > aversion, and attachment (LOL!), --------------------------------------------------------------------- Lobha, Dosa and Moha don´t disappear in a few meditation sessions (despite the fact that the Satipatthana Sutta apparently states it - if you spend only seven days in such intensive practise, you will reach one of two results: either the clear perception of here and now or the Non-Returning, if you have got some impurity to deal on). So, your intense,profound,penetrating,strong and bold practice cleaned you up of all wrong beliefs! Congrats! The rest of your posts I would like to comment later, if you don´t mind about it, dear Howard! ^_^ With Metta ( and happy because I am here and now again!) Ã?caro #62546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? nilovg Dear Icaro, I just thought of you. I was excited because I got from the Pali list moderator the 7 Vri fonts that enable me to go to the that you once recommended, so that I read it now with the proper diacritical signs. you were excited because you could download the whole Tipitaka. Just today I also got a link that downloaded in no time, a few minutes: With Metta ( and happy because I am here and now again!) #62547 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 8/17/06 10:48:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: > Hi Mateesha > > Another good 'samadhi' sutta! > > --- matheesha wrote: > > > >SN 35.99 > >Samadhi Sutta > >Concentration > >Translated from the Pali by > >Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S iv 80 > >CDB ii 1181 > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > >as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it > >actually is present? > > > >"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > >inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > >inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > >dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > >or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > >"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > >inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > >inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > > >"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > >inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > >inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > >in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > >as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > >"So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns > >things as they actually are present." > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.099.than.html > > As I said in a post sent a moment ago, we'd like to have your comments on > the meaning of the sutta. For example, 'discerns things as they really > are' is obviously a reference to vipassana. Are you reading the sutta as > saying that samadhi is the main condition for panna arising? What kind of > samadhi would that be, in your view (based on your understanding of the > texts), and how is that samadhi developed? > > Jon ======================= Jon, in this post of yours and in the last one you ask questions of Matheesha but don't provide your own answers. For me the answers are clear: Concentration *should* be intentionally developed as it is an important condition for the development of wisdom. (When the Buddha says "do this", as in "develop concentration", he is urging the taking of an intentional action.) As for concentration being a requisite for wisdom - one of several, of course - do you not recall the post I copy at the end? A post that you and I seemed to be on agreement with regard to? With metta, Howard P.S. As for how samadhi is developed, in addition to the many suttas in which the Buddha urges secusion and practice with the jhanas, there is all the detailed discussion by Buddhaghosa of meditation practice. (And Buddhaghosa wasn't a modern man confused about "meditation", he was the compiler of the commentarial tradition as it has come down to us.) And in the context of the development of samadhi, I view the "samadhi" as referring not only to momentary focus of attention, but to a generally concentrated mind - a mind that has been trained to typically pay sharp intenion at most times and which has been calmed by jhana practice. I view the development of samadhi to refer to a process of conditioning the mind, making it a more fit tool for investigation of dhammas. ______________________ A prior post of mine showing concentration as requisite for insight: Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:35 am Subject: Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Jon - I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain of conditionality: Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near shore to the far shore." This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the factors affect each other. With metta, Howard #62548 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/17/06 10:58:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > I understand a kalyanamitta to be one "further along" in the > >Dhamma [I > >leave that for each of us to determine how that phrase is to be > >understood] > >whom one takes as a teacher or guide (officially or less formally). > > I don't think there has to be any taking of the person as a teacher or > guide. Anyone who helps one in the appropriate way at any time is one's > kalyanamitta at that time. The relationship need not be a continuing one. > > >I would > >imagine many here think of Khun Sujin in such a way. > > I'm sure that's true (and I am one of those). But there are many on this > list also whose posts I have benefited from from time to time (including > yourself;-)), and at those times these people can be considered as kalyana > mittas. > > Jon > ========================== In part of the PTI article on kamma, there is the follwing difficult-to-read material: These subjects of meditation are given as 38 at DhsA 168 (cp. Cpd. 202), as 32 (dvatti?s' akara -- k°) at Vism 240 sq., as 40 at Vism 110 sq. (in detail); as pañca -- sandhika at Vism 277; some of them are mentioned at J i.116; DhA i.221, 336; iv.90; -- °? anuyuñjati to give oneself up to meditation Sasv 151; PvA 61; -- °? ugga?hati to accept from his teacher a particular instrument of meditation Vism 277 sq. (also °assa uggaho & ugga?hana); KhA 40; DhA i.9, 262; iv.106; PvA 42; -- °? katheti to teach a pupil how to meditate on one of the k° DhA i.8, 248, 336; PvA 61; -- °? adasi DhA iv.106; °ga?hati J iii.246; Vism 89; °acikkhana instruction in a formula of exercise DhsA 246; °dayaka the giver of a k -- ??h° object, the spiritual adviser and teacher, who must be a kalya?amitta (q. v.), one who has entered the Path; I particularly draw your attention to the last clause: "the spiritual adviser and teacher, who must be a kalya?amitta (q. v.), one who has entered the Path" It is my understanding of the usage of the term that the kalyanamitta is typically advanced, at least in comparison to oneself. With metta, Howard #62549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:50 am Subject: addiction to quietness? nilovg Hi Howard, thank you very much for taking the trouble to answer. ---------- H: The term 'wu wei' is Chinese for "non-doing". ... As I understand it, it is activity that is not interfered with by the sense of a self who acts or wills. Much that RobK writes carries the flavor of that. If I'm not mistaken, he had an interest in Zen years ago. I regret that I have nothing readily available of his to quote to you as an example. ------ N: Perhaps it is what he often calls the flavour of anatta. He also quotes from the intro to the Dhaatu katha, Discourse on elements, that the elements are entirely dependent on conditions, that ______ Howard: Nina, you ask "Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you learn during your meditation sessions. What exactly, when and how?" I have found that my formal sitting meditation, especially my retreat "insight-experience" of a number of years ago, has affected me (and currently affects me) in daily life in several ways: 1) I no longer have the slightest belief in a self, or soul, or fixed core/identity in the conventional person - though the *sense* of self definitely remains along with plenty of concomitant craving, aversion, and attachment (LOL!), ------ N: I am glad you realize so well the sense of self remaining even you do not believe in a self. This goes for all of us. ------------- H: 2) I have *far* more equanimity than previously, being a much more "lighthearted" and easygoing person with a better sense of humor, 3) I am better able to be clearly aware of what is happening "in the moment" than previously and far more successful at introspection, 4) The fear of (my) death has *drastically* diminished, and 5) My confidence in and devotion to the Buddha and his Dhamma have become stronger than ever. ------- N: I am glad you explained about carrying over to daily life, otherwise one may keep on wondering what you mean. Partly these benefits could come from sutta reading, reflection, discussion, at least I can say that for myself. As to what is happening in the moment, Rob K has the expression: thinking in the present moment, indicating that it is a beginning awareness, not yet direct awareness without thinking. ------------ H: ... During a 45-minute sitting, I begin with attending mostly to the breath sensations at the nostrils. Very shortly, pleasant bodily sensations arise along with a growing calm. When that reaches a degree of stability and "loveliness", I enlarge the domain of attention to (sensations within) the entire body, though still keeping the breath sensations primary. After a while, I am able to expand the attention to include *sights, sounds, odors, and mental objects for easy investigation, but with bodily sensations still primary. With the degree of calm and peace in place at that point, dhammas can be observed far more clearly, and whatever arises is pretty much "as good" as anything else. There are variations, of course, from sitting to sitting. Sometimes a sitting is more of an absorptive one, where the mental landscape becomes empty (at least for a time) except for the peace and pleasantness. ------ N: Thank you for the explanation. We go different ways, but I try to understand others who see benefit in sessions. Nina. #62550 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:03 am Subject: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 nilovg Dear friends, this is a continuation of a quote from Jon's message: < Why did the Buddha see the need to address this particular audience on satipatthana with breath as object? Perhaps because when the development of samatha has already progressed to the level that the object of samatha has been replaced by an 'image' (nimitta) of that object, moments of satipatthana are not possible during absorption on the image, since the object of the moment of consciousness is a concept rather than a reality. If this interpretation is correct, then this part of the sutta should not be regarded as requiring us, or even as advising us, as relative beginners at samatha/vipassana, to undertake a particular kind of 'meditation practice' in order to develop mindfulness of breathing. So to return to your comment, I am very much interested the traditional teachings. But I do not necessarily accept the modern-day interpretation of them. However, I am always happy to discuss any views that are reasonably open on the texts. Jon -------------- Message from Rob K: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8250 Dear R. E. I'm not sure if you read my earlier post where I noted that some among the objects of samatha do require special conditions including a crosslegged posture, erect back, a very quiet place, solitude... This is all well explained in the visuddhimagga. In particular this applies to anapanasati - breath. If that is the object one chooses then these conditions are necessary if one wants to succeed. However, we should know that anapanasati is singled out as being the most difficult of all the 40 objects.Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii QUOTE 211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons..." Also one should understand the difference bettwen the development of vipassana and samatha (see dans post earlier today for some good points). For the one who is truly at home with samatha bhavana (calm meditation) then that has to be an object for insight as well other wise it will be taken a self. It is not considered a preferable object but rather that all objects should be known as they are for insight to develop. Hence Erik noted that his biggest insights have come while seeing panic as being anatta, while one who is a master of jhana would have to see those very pleasant objects in the same way - as conditioned phenomena- for it to be an object for the development of vipassana. All kusala is supportive, to some degree, of the path, so if we have the skill and wish to develop samatha that is good . But easy, as Dan mentioned, to get confused about the difference between sati(of the eigtfold path) and samadhi and samatha and vipassana.> (end quote) Nina. #62551 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: addiction to quietness? nilovg Hi James, Op 18-aug-2006, om 8:45 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > On re-reading this part of my post I realized that I might have given > the impression that I am unhappy with this part of your book or with > your book in general, and that is definitely not the case! ---------- N: No, I got your comments the right way. Thanks for your kind remarks. In fact, it is so long ago that I had forgotten that I wrote this. -------- J: Meditation which is not done in the spirit of wu-wei (non-doing) is an impediment to the path; I agree with that. However, as the saying goes, it isn't necessary to `throw the baby out with the bath water' (just because one aspect is corrupt, that doesn't mean to get rid of the whole thing). The simple fact is that the Buddha did teach meditation. -------- N: I am glad Howard just explained about wu-wei. Meditation has two meanings as I wrote before: samatha and vipassana. They can go together. What I keep in mind is what Kel recently quoted: the subjects for all occasions: metta, the foul, death, the Triple Gem. we discussed this also before. ------------ J: However, when one meditates with a goal in mind then it does become corrupt. When the meditation is done to feel calm "Oh, I'm so stressed out! I need to meditate", .... all of these cases of meditation is for the wrong reasons. However, there are right reasons to meditate. I would have liked to see you present the subject in a more balanced manner. ------- N: It is good to take into account the wrong reasons. Many more things can be said about this subject, but it is intricate and subtle. Many posts on dsg as you know. Nina. #62552 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob's forum on Mindfulness of Breathing, no 1. matheesha333 Hi Jon, >J: I'm sorry if my post sounded anti-samatha. M: I'm embarrassed now. :) I didn't say that anything you said in that post was wrong! I guess what I was reacting to is using 'this was said for those highly developed in samatha' as almost a way of saying that it doesn't apply to us in this day and age. It (at least in me) evokes a sense of things done in Buddha's time, things done by monastic monks etc. A certain distant irrelevance. There are many lay people who can attain jhana as the suttas themselves bear witness to. It is a very wholesome thing to aspire towards, and there maybe people here with undeveloped potential you are inadvertently giving the wrong impression to and stunting their path because both separate samatha and vipassana development is required. I do understand that we often speak based on our own personal experience and what worked for us. But to take that to mean that nothing else works is stretching it (no, and you didn't suggest that- I'm just commenting :)). This is the type of thinking which gives rise to different teachers and different methods, who are sometimes at loggerheads with each other. Having a wide range of methods (all hopefully based on satipatthana) is a good thing. Claiming ekayana magga for each one is not! with metta Matheesha #62553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:30 am Subject: trying nilovg Dear Han, ---------- Han:Anyway, I am just putting up the points that come to my mind. I am not to say “trying” is good or not good. Those who like trying please try, those who do not want to try please do not try. It is an individual inclination. For me, I believe in trying, and I am trying. When I said I am trying it includes meditation. Just because I am meditating I have nothing against those who do not meditate. -------- N: thank you for your series that you are ending now, helas! As to trying, it helps to see it as a conditioned dhamma. You once wrote that from your youth on you were told in Mynmar: keep on trying. Understandable that this made an impression on you. What we learn in youth stays with us. We can say that trying is right effort, if we understand right effort as a cetasika, a path factor that has to be accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path. Otherwise it could not be a path factor. Thank you for all your efforts (!) in writing this series, and knowing your difficulties with your eyesight I appreciate it all the more. I do hope you will not disappear to the background. I am glad for you your daughter was visiting you, and such a rare occasion. We both saw your photo, you look very young. It is the Dhamma! Best wishes, Nina. #62554 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? rjkjp1 Dear Howard (and all), I told Jon today I planned to return to dsg in a few months, but I appreciate your comments on about my perspective so being in Bangkok and all, it seems like a good time to write today. You are right that I have some zen in my past:even till now, I like some writing of the Zen teacher Toni Packer. We should discuss more about wu wei and right effort etc. Robert dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 8/17/06 2:44:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > > > Howard, I take the opportunity to ask a few questions to you. You > > appreciated Rob K 's take on Wu Wei. You explained before, but I have > > forgotten what it is. > > > > Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you learn during > > your meditation sessions. What exactly, when and how? > > > > What are you meditating on during those two hours? > > > ======================= > Thank you for your questions, Nina. :-) > The term 'wu wei' is Chinese for "non-doing". It refers, I believe, to > action free of any sense of grasping or self. Basically it is action based on > selfless chanda - action grounded in what the Chinese (and Japanese) call "no > mind". As I understand it, it is activity that is not interfered with by the > sense of a self who acts or wills. Much that RobK writes carries the flavor of > that. If I'm not mistaken, he had an interest in Zen years ago. I regret that > I have nothing readily available of his to quote to you as an example. > Nina, you ask "Then you often say: you carry on to daily life what you > #62555 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - It's wonderful to hear from you, Robert! :-) In a message dated 8/18/06 11:09:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard (and all), > I told Jon today I planned to return to dsg in a few months, but I > appreciate your comments on about my perspective so being in > Bangkok and all, it seems like a good time to write today. You are right > that I have some zen in my past:even till now, I like some writing of the > Zen teacher Toni Packer. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I recall that. I like her too. Her emphasis on ongoing mindfulness is a useful one, and, in particular, it can serve, I think, as a welcome bridge between the "formal meditation folks" and the "no meditation" folks. --------------------------------------- > We should discuss more about wu wei and right effort etc. ------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. :-) ------------------------------------- > Robert > ================= With metta, Howard #62556 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? scottduncan2 Dear Robert, This is a good thing, in my opinion. I'm glad: "I told Jon today I planned to return to dsg in a few months..." With loving kindness, Scott. #62557 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:55 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 33. nilovg Dear friends, What are realities and what are imaginations? We use in our language words in order to make ourselves understood. However, we should know that a word sometimes denotes something which is real, which can be directly experienced, now, and that sometimes a word denotes an abstract idea. We should find out what the Buddha taught about reality, otherwise we will continue to be ignorant of what occurs in ourselves and around ourselves. And then it will be impossible to eradicate defilements. Moments of consciousness are not imagination, they are realities which can be directly experienced, at this moment. We can come to know our good and bad qualities when they appear. We have attachment or aversion with regard to what we experience through the eyes, the ears, and through the other senses. The experiences through the senses are realities. Seeing or hearing are not imagination. Before like or dislike on account of what we see arises, there must be a moment of just seeing. Is there seeing at this moment? It can be experienced, it is a reality. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiences through the bodysense and through the mind are different moments of consciousness which can be known when they appear. Seeing is the experience of what presents itself through the eyes, of visible object or colour. Seeing is different from thinking of what we see. Hearing is the experience of what presents itself through the ears, of sound. Hearing is different from thinking about what we hear. Thus, there are many different moments of consciousness which experience different objects. ******* Nina #62558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 52 nilovg Dear friends, Moha is dangerous, it is the root of all akusala. When we are ignorant of realities, we accumulate a great deal of akusala. Moha conditions lobha; when we do not know realities as they are we become absorbed in the things we experience through the senses. Moha also conditions dosa; when we are ignorant of realities we have aversion towards unpleasant experiences. Moha accompanies each akusala citta and it conditions all ten kinds of akusala kamma patha (killing, stealing, lying etc.) which are accomplished through body, speech and mind. Only when there is mindfulness of the realities which appear through the six doors, the paññå is developed which can eradicate moha. The sotåpanna (the ``streamwinner'', who has attained the first stage of enlightenment) has eradicated the moha-múla-citta which is accompanied by doubt, vicikicchå; he has no more doubts about paramattha dhammas, he knows the ``world in the ariyan sense''. He has no doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. He has no doubts about the Path leading to the end of defilements. The sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí (the ``once-returner, who has attained the second stage of enlightenment) and the anågåmí (the ``non-returner'', who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) still have the type of moha-múla-citta accompanied by uddhacca, restlessness. Only the arahat has eradicated all akusala. Ignorance is not seeing the true characteristics of realities, not knowing the four noble Truths. Out of ignorance one does not see the first noble Truth, the Truth of dukkha: one does not realize the nåma and rúpa which appear as impermanent and therefore one does not see them as dukkha, unsatisfactory. One does not know the second noble Truth: the origin of dukkha which is craving. Because of clinging to nåma and rúpa there is no end to the cycle of birth and death and thus there is no end to dukkha. One does not know the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha, which is nibbåna. One does not know the noble Truth of the way leading to the cessation of dukkha, which is the eightfold Path. The eightfold Path is developed through vipassanå. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Jambukhådaka, §9) that Jambukhådaka asked Såriputta: `` `Ignorance, ignorance!' is the saying, friend Såriputta. Pray, what is ignorance?'' ``Not understanding about dukkha, friend, not understanding about the arising of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha, the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha--this, friend, is called `ignorance'.'' ``But is there any way, friend, any approach to the abandoning of this ignorance?'' ``There is indeed a way, friend, to such abandoning.'' ``And what, friend, is that way, that approach to the abandoning of this ignorance?'' ``It is this ariyan eightfold Path, friend...'' The ariyan eightfold Path leads to the eradication of moha. ****** Nina. #62559 From: "icarofranca" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:48 am Subject: Re: addiction to quietness? icarofranca Hi Nina!!! It´s always good hearing about you!!! Thanks for the nice Dhamma gift. It´s indeed a great bliss and bless that all written Dhamma can be freely reached by anyone today!!! As usual, the discussions here at DSG are at the upmost level. Buddha could give Jon and Sarah a medal of honor!!!!:-)) With Metta, Ã?caro --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Icaro, > I just thought of you. I was excited because I got from the Pali list > moderator the 7 Vri fonts that enable me to go to the www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html.> that you once > recommended, so that I read it now with the proper diacritical signs. > you were excited because you could download the whole Tipitaka. Just > today I also got a link that downloaded in no time, a few minutes: > > With best wishes, > Nina. > Op 18-aug-2006, om 15:04 heeft icarofranca het volgende geschreven: > > > With Metta ( and happy because I am here and now again!) > #62560 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 kelvin_lwin Hi Jon and Nina, > not be regarded as requiring us, or even as advising us, as relative > beginners at samatha/vipassana, to undertake a particular kind of > 'meditation practice' in order to develop mindfulness of breathing. Kel: I can understand your argument that it is a difficult subject and not for just anyone. But to my reading, it did not say it's not to be used at all. Mindfulness of breathing is one meditation subject suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative temperament. (Vsm II 121) How do you understand the following also especially for 'beginners': Vsm VII 186- 186: So if a clansman who is a beginner wants to develop this meditation subject, and through insight based on the fourth jhana produced in breathing, to reach Arahantship together with the discriminations, he should first do all the work connected with the purification ov virtue, etc., in the way already described, after which he should learn the meditation subject in five stages from a teacher of the kind already described. 190. Herein this clansman who is a beginner should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when counting, he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten or make any break in the series. By stopping short of five his thoughts get excited in the cramped space, like a herd of cattle shut in a cramped pen. By going beyond ten his thoughts take the number [rather than the breaths] for their support. By making a break in the series he wonders if the meditation subject has reached completion or not. 191. When counting, he should at first do it slow as a grain measurer does ... 192. As he does his counting in this way, the in-breaths and out- breaths become evident to him as they enter in and issue out. Then he can leave off counting slow, like a grain measurer and the can count quicly as a cowherd does ... 193. ... For as long as the meditation subject is connected with counting it is with the help of that very counting that the mind becomes unified, just as a boat in a swift current is steadie with the help of a rudder. 194. When he counts quickly, the meditation subject becomes apparent to him as an uninterrupted process. Then, knowing that it is proceeding uninterruptedly, he can count quicly in the way just described, ... 195. But how long is he to go on counting? Until, without counting, mindfuless remains settled on the -in-breaths and out-breaths as its object. For counting is simply a device for setting mindfuless on the in-breaths and out-breaths as object by cutting off the external dissipation of applied thoughts. 196. Connexion is the uninterrupted following of the in-breaths and out-breaths with mindfulness after counting has been given up. And that is not by following after the beginning, middle and end. 197. So when he gives attention to it by connexion, he should do so not by the beginning, milddle and end but rather by touching and by fixing. 199. When a bhikkhus places himself with mindfuless, as it were, at the foot of the post for anchoring and rocks the swing of the in- breaths and out-breaths; he sits down with mindfuless on the sign at the same place, and follows with mindfulness the beginning, middle and end of the in-breaths and out-breaths at the place touched by them as they come and go; keeping his mind fixed there .. 208. For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each higher stage, this one does not; in fact, as he goes on developing it, it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes to the point at which it is no longer manifest. However, when it becomes unmanifest in this way, the bhikkhu should not get up from his seat, shake out his leather mat and go away. What should be done? He should not get up with the idea 'Shall I ask the teacher?' Or "is my meditation subject lost?'; for by going away, and so disturbing his posture, the meditation subject has to be strated anew. So he should go on sitting as he was and substitute the place. 209. ... he should apostrophize himself thus: "you with all your wisdom are certainly not inside a mother's womb or drowned in water or in the unconsccious existence or dead or attained to the fourth jhana or born into fine-material or immaterial existence or attained to cessation. Those in-breaths and out-breaths are actually existent in you, only you are not able to discern them because your understanding is dull'. Then, fixing his mind on the place normally touched [by the breaths], he should proceed to give his attention to that. 213. Suppose a ploughman, after doing some ploughing, sent his oxen free to graze and sat down to rest in the shade, then his oxen would soon go into the forest. Now a skilled ploughman who wants to catch them and yoke them again does not wander through the forest following their tracks, but rather he takes his rope and goad and goes straight to the drinking place where they meet, and he sits or lies there. Then after the oxen have wandered about for a part of the day, they come to the drinking palce where they meet and they bathe and drink, and when he sees that they have come out and are standing about, he secures them with the rope, and prodding them with the goad, he brings them back, yokes them, and goes on with his ploughing. SO too, the bhikkhu should not look for the in-breaths and out-breaths anywhere else than the place normally touched by them. And he should take the rope of mindfuless and the goad of understanind, and fixing his mind of the place normally touched by them, he should go on giving his attention to that. For as he gives his attention in this way they reappear after no long time, as the oxen did at the drinking place where they met. So he can secure them with the rope of mindfulness, and yoking them in that same place and prodding them with the goad of understanding, he can keep on applying himself to the meditation subject. #62561 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:44 pm Subject: Re: Scott 's question and more! kelvin_lwin Hi Sukin, I'll look forward to more explanation if you discuss it further at the meeting. I think this is one of the most inconsistent theme with KS's way of explaining. > That he was mostly thinking about the welfare of > others, and at other times he sincerely saw the danger in attachment > and aversion. And this was possible purely because of his great panna > and already developed parami. Kel: How do you account for the fact he was ready to become an arahant as Sumedha even before he was a Bodhisatta? > attitude towards these dhammas quite "different" from peoples of other > religions and beliefs. Perhaps other faiths do good with full force of `self > view' whereas as followers of Dhamma, one may have instances not to > think in terms of `self' and `other'?? :-/ Kel: This doesn't make sense. Any kusala is already without wrong-view. Maybe that difficulty is with the insistence that right- view must always be present. Bodhisatta fulfilled paramis even during animal and lowly births. > In any case, K. Sujin also reminded us about the uselessness of being > overly concerned about the development of parami. I guess that is > because in this matter, we are liable to think of how `I' can develop > parami, and this would be self-defeating. Kel: Well still doesn't make it consistent. The usual danger is being conceited after acts of charity. There's no monopoly on the act of charity itself for Buddhists ... - Kel #62562 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] trying hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind note. You are right that I once wrote that since our youth on we were told in Myanmar to keep on trying. The youths in Myanmar in yesteryears were told to try very hard in whatever they were doing. The youths of today are being told the same thing, and the youths of tomorrow will be told the same thing. It is perseverance, and perseverance, and then perseverance! As an inspiration we are told to study Dhammapada verse 160, and the story of Mahaajanaka, especially the episode in which he swam in the ocean for seven days until he was rescued by Mani-mekhlaa. Those who are interested in the story of Mahaajanaka may click on the following link and see one of the most remarkable literary feats of His Majesty the King of Thailand. http://www.manohra.gr.jp/thailandquest/king&mahajanaka/mahajanaka00.html Thank you very much also for saying that I look very young. Yes, I believe that it is the Dhamma. I am sure it was also the effect of Dhamma that was flowing towards me from Jon, Sarah and Azita at the time of taking the photograph. They are extraordinary persons – they think, they eat and they live in Dhamma all the tine without any let-up during their waking hours. They won’t say anything except Dhamma all the time – no small talks. It was extraordinary! Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: You once > wrote that from your youth on you were told in > Mynmar: keep on > trying. Understandable that this made an impression > on you. What we > learn in youth stays with us. #62563 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 buddhatrue Hi Kel and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > 208. For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each > higher stage, this one does not; in fact, as he goes on developing it, > it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes > to the point at which it is no longer manifest. > However, when it becomes unmanifest in this way, the bhikkhu should > not get up from his seat, shake out his leather mat and go away. What > should be done? He should not get up with the idea 'Shall I ask the > teacher?' Or "is my meditation subject lost?'; for by going away, and > so disturbing his posture, the meditation subject has to be strated > anew. So he should go on sitting as he was and substitute the place. > > 209. ... he should apostrophize himself thus: "you with all your > wisdom are certainly not inside a mother's womb or drowned in water or > in the unconsccious existence or dead or attained to the fourth jhana > or born into fine-material or immaterial existence or attained to > cessation. Those in-breaths and out-breaths are actually existent in > you, only you are not able to discern them because your understanding > is dull'. Then, fixing his mind on the place normally touched [by the > breaths], he should proceed to give his attention to that. Kel, thank you so much for providing the FULL TEXT of this passage. I am absolutely flabbergasted and more than a little irritated that this passage of the Vism. has been so often misrepresented in DSG!!! The people who misquote this passage should be absolutely ashamed of themselves, and that includes the precious Rob K.!! Only the first part of this passage is quoted where it states that the breath as a meditation subject becomes subtler and subtler as one practices, AND THEN THE REMAINING TEXT IS CUT OFF!! This is what is so often quoted: For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each > higher stage, this one does not; in fact, as he goes on developing it, > it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes > to the point at which it is no longer manifest. Now, just reading that, one gets the impression that the breath as a meditation subject is simply impossible to use. It will be known at first but then it will disappear. This quote has always bothered me because from personal experience I know that the breath becomes more and more subtle, but that just means that concentration and mindfulness must increase! The sensation of the breath doesn't disappear! And, of course, if one continues to read the passage you can see that the growing subtlety of the breath is not to be a deterrent!: However, when it becomes unmanifest in this way, the bhikkhu should > not get up from his seat, shake out his leather mat and go away. Oh, that's NOW nice to know. I think some people need to re-read those instructions. Some people, when they have faced this difficulty, have gotten up, shaken out their mat, and gone away to join DSG to bitch and moan about how difficult breath meditation is! Thanks again Kel for providing the FULL text of this quote. There is another quote from the Vism. about how breath meditation is only for Buddha's, son's of Buddhas, untrivial people, and the like. It is quoted quite often in DSG. Could you also provide the FULL text for that quote? Please, please, please!! As I said, I want to get my own copy of the Vism. so that I can know what it really states. Metta, James #62564 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Mateesha --- matheesha wrote: > M: Ok, I might have got kusala and punna mixed up! I am not clear > about the difference between the two except to say that one leads to > nibbana and ther other to good vipaka. I take it that kusala has a > panna element according to the abhidhamma? Now I'm mixed up! Are you referring here to punna or to panna? Panna is one kind of kusala. Kusala is usually classified as threefold, namely, dana, sila and bhavana, where bhavana includes samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. Both samatha bhavana (but not all) and vipassana bhavana involve panna. You have made a very important distinction here when you mention leading to nibbana vs. leading to good vipaka. Only panna of the level of satipatthana leads to escape from samsara (and nibbana); all other kusala, including panna of the level of samatha, leads to further existence in samsara (although it also supports the development of satipatthana). This is why it is said that all the teachings are to be read in the light of satipatthana; any other reading will lead one to develop more conditions for continued existence. > I think there is a formula for kusala to arise, it is called the > noble eightfold path. If there was no formula, all those monks going > and living in jungles, being a burden on lay people, would be a > useless act, championed by the Buddha. He could have gone back to > his princely life, stayed on his throne and got all his lay subjects > to come and listend to him preach, much more effectively! The only form of kusala that is unique to the Buddha-Dhamma is satipatthana/vipassana, and it is this that the NEP describes. The other kinds of kusala are found outside the teachings. But kusala is a mental state, and it cannot be made to arise by following any particular technique or instruction. A bodily act that appears to be a kusala act may or may not be accompanied by a kusala mind-state. Likewise, concentrating on one of the 38 kammathaana may or may not be kusala (there is nothing kusala per se in concentration, and the object of one's thought does not determine the ethical quality of the mind state). > > I think many people read the suttas as saying that focussing on > one of > > the 38 'kammatthaana' gives rise to samatha capable of leading to > > jhana. In my view, what the suttas say is that only these 38 > > 'kammatthaana' support the development of samatha capable of > leading to > > jhana. I'm sure you can see the difference. > > > > M: How do you think it supports samatha? Could you clarify a bit > more? What I mean is that only contemplation of the 38 kammatthaana is capable of leading to high levels of samatha. If the object is other than one of the 38 (such as a mantra), it cannot lead to that. Is this how you see it? > M: So according to your idea, how is panna supposed to gain insight, > without direct experiencing? Because you say direct experiencing is > impossible through focusing - if so what does panna 'work with'? How > can it know anything other than what is just fed into it through > theory? ..or through logical conjecture? Where does the direct > experiencing come in? Panna experiences ('works with') dhammas, as described in many suttas and at the beginning of Part III of the Vism. But the dhamma that panna experiences is taken as its object without being 'chosen' (by us) as the object of study. Before this can occur, however, there must be firm understanding at the intellectual level of the nature and characteristic of panna and of the dhammas that appear in our daily life. Without this there is no prospect of panna arising and taking a dhamma as its object. > You are experiencing dhammas now. Otherwise you would not be > experiencing anything at all. What is not clear is their > characteristics, because there is no panna. Or rather there is not > enough samadhi for panna to arise. Your experiencing is not clear > enough to see a sound arising. It is not clear enough to see it > passing away. You DO know when it is happening and you are in the > middle of it though. But not with any insight. There isn't enough > samadhi for there to be any clarity of your experience. I agree with the general idea you outline here that dhammas are arising in our life. However, it is not a case of "us experiencing dhammas"; it is all just dhammas that are doing the experiencing and are being experienced. I agree also that as long as there is no sati/panna arising dhammas are not seen to be as they truly are. However, I would not attribute the lack of arising panna to lack of developed samadhi; I would attribute it to lack of developed panna ;-)) Nice talking to you, as always. Jon #62565 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:43 pm Subject: Discussions at the Foundation contd (b) sarahprocter... contd Friday afternoon (these are all 2 hr sessions of discussion btw) ======== -the meaning of savaka - one who has attained insights under a Buddha. Now the conditions are being developed to become a savaka. This point relates to the ones on prior attainments. If the bodhisatta had attained insights under a previous Buddha, I think he'd have been a savaka of that Buddha. -conflicting info about Buddhaghosa -not important at all. Must have been great wisdom for his work -7 chariots/visuddhis (Tep's old posts - maybe Tep can be encouraged to discuss this topic again) - without development of sila visuddhi (WITH) understanding, cannot be the higher visuddhis. -Jhana - lots and lots of discussion. Any Jhana labhis now? path to jhana, jhana objects. Maybe Rob or others will add more. Also, reference to Ivan's (Matt's) experiences, those of Tibetan monks and more. Matt??? Also meaning of jhana contemplation, appana samadhi - it'll come back. -kasinas -meaning is 'all' or 'everything'. Not attending to sense objects at all. If (like one example given), the object of jhana is the running stream, it's not jhana. Sound in particular is the enemy of jhana. -Ist Step in samatha/jhana development is seeing the danger of sense objects. Not possible to skip this:-( -Rupas as lumps of froth - empty of self because it's gone. As Howard says, even what we take for dhammas such as sounds or visible objects can be taken for something substantial. -Atth. bricklayer simile on the heaping up of samsara inc. all kusala except satipatthana -Tipitaka not for reading but for the study of realities. When KS refers to the Tipitaka as teacher, she's referring to the understanding of present realities only. -Parami or parami - support for parami with understanding -Knowledge in Buddha's time compared to now - a cop out? Yes and No. -Azita's question on realities...conceptual understanding - sorry, Azita, can you elaborate sometime (no hurry)? -Also, Azita on eye-base as base for seeing consciousness but not for other cittas in the process. However, it continues to act as door (dvara) for them. Again, if you can give the Vism ref, Nina or others will add more, I'm sure. ****************** Time to get ready for the next and last discussion. Promises to be an interesting one with the same names Jon mentioned, plus some of our Thai friends, also an old friend Peter Swan and his wife have been coming and this afternoon I believe Ven Dhammanando (who occasionally posts here) and a friend are coming. Will try to give a last report before leaving tomorrow for Australia. Metta, Sarah ========= #62566 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:42 pm Subject: Discussions at the Foundation contd (a) sarahprocter... Dear All, I'd like to continue giving a list of topics from our discussions here because it helps me to reflect on them briefly as I type and may be of interest to some of you. (funny, having just written that, the fire alarm testing system has started here;-( ) There will be some overlap with Jon's for Thursday. Thursday afternoon ===== -The dung-eating monk - KS's example of accumulations. He became an arahat and only then a bhikkhu -The cliff edge monks who discarded their escape route and didn't accept help or sustenance- one became an arahant and flew away, one a sotapanna and the others died if I recall. Accumulations and not necessarily any wrong practice involved. Appearances can be very deceptive. (Rob K, can you provide a link and more detail of the discussion?) -Paramis as discussed by Sukin. Satipatthana in the life someone heard the teachings may condition 'goodness' or paramis in further lives when no chance to hear more. -bhavasava - subtle attachment of the anagami who hasn't attained jhanas. kusala as condition for rebirth. Also more on kamatanha, bhava tanha and vibhavatanha. The last is the same as annihilation belief and always with wrong view. - relations between conditions (Howard and Nina's discussion), maybe better to avoid the word 'relations' and stick to the nature of conditions as dhammas? -sanna vipallasa as momentary with all akusala. (Azita, anything more to add?) -Tanha to be pursued (sevitabba)- Rob, pls see a post I wrote on this under 'Tanha - 3 cheers' in U.P. Does it help? -More on Kel's and my discussion on previous insights. KS made a point about if higher insights are attained, the enlightenment in that life (or if a sudden death) in the next is inevitable, once there is the turning away from conditioned dhammas. -Cula sotapannas as related to this. 'Niyaka' -Rebirth in hell realms -if it's just one life, nothing special. -Cula sotapanna - no more doubt about conditioned dhammas, but can still be doubt about nibbana (not yet experienced)or other kinds. -Azita's Vism quote on different kinds of panna. Azita, maybe you can just give the ref and question/response? -Parinnas and relationship to vipassana nanas - referrinf to the v.ns and their 'effect' -upadanas and anagami. Are upadanas always strong lobha and therefore do they apply to the anagami? Another meaning of upadana referring to the 2nd javana. -silabbataparamasa- subtle trying to have awareness even when no obvious wrong view - more on nimitta, but forgotten for now -2 or 3 roots. 2 roots- can they develop panna? In theory, yes, but how likely when we see how difficult it is for even those with 3 roots. -Han's quote from Ledi Sayadaw on the two kinds of saddha inc. pakati saddha or natural saddha. KS said the term wasn't in the Tipitaka or tanha as opposite, but when I explained, she agree that lobha (tanha) can easily be taken for saddha when there's no understanding and ordinary saddha is different from saddha with und. ******************************** to be contd #62567 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from Bangkok - Friday morning jonoabb Hi Nina Apparently I got this wrong. It should have read: - Wrong view vs. wrong practice (there can be WP without WV arising at the time (i.e., in one who still has the the latent tendency for WV)). Appologies for any confusion. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > This leaves me somewhat confused, since the texts state: also wrong > practice is eradicated by the sotaapanna. Could you add just a few > words? > Perhaps an old habit clung to with lobha, not with wrong view? > Nina. > Op 18-aug-2006, om 5:28 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > Wrong view vs. wrong practice (there can still be WP even after the > > latent tendency of WV has been eradicated) #62568 From: "sukinder" Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:07 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Scott 's question and more! sukinderpal Hi Kel, I saw this post while in the process of cutting and pasting into Microsoft word for print out, otherwise I am quite behind in my reading and would not have seen it in time for today's discussions --------------------------- Kel: I'll look forward to more explanation if you discuss it further at the meeting. I think this is one of the most inconsistent theme with KS's way of explaining. Sukin: Yesterday I was too shy to ask more about this, but today I will. In the meantime I'll attempt an answer. If I understand you right, I think that you are of the opinion that the Paramis are accumulated and developed regardless of there being panna or not? But would this mean also the panna of the samatha kind? I think you will agree that 'development' is either of samatha or vipassana, and that both these require some level of panna. So it is clear that the paramis are developed only with panna. The issue however is that if whether the panna of samatha works in this regard. Personally, I think it does, but I have not brought this up with K. Sujin yet. If her answer is to the affirmative, would you still think that her thoughts are inconsistent? And if not, would I start thinking so? ;-) But let us go further. ---------------------------- > That he was mostly thinking about the welfare of > others, and at other times he sincerely saw the danger in attachment > and aversion. And this was possible purely because of his great panna > and already developed parami. Kel: How do you account for the fact he was ready to become an arahant as Sumedha even before he was a Bodhisatta? Sukin: I must be missing your point, because I don't see any inconsistency here. The very fact that he had the great panna as you say, to become an arahatta before aspiring to become a Sammasambuddha, shows that even in those lives in which there was no Sasana, he was able to keep on developing the parami, quite naturally, including when he was an animal. Nothing is lost, and the accumulated panna and other kusala can have the effect in the most unlikely settings, don't you think? Of course, the panna that insights into the conditioned nature of reality is much higher and requires quite a different "view" of things, but that which sees other aspects of reality, such as impermanence and the value of kusala and harm in akusala, these can arise, no? ---------------------------------- > attitude towards these dhammas quite "different" from peoples of other > religions and beliefs. Perhaps other faiths do good with full force of `self > view' whereas as followers of Dhamma, one may have instances not to > think in terms of `self' and `other'?? :-/ Kel: This doesn't make sense. Any kusala is already without wrong-view. Maybe that difficulty is with the insistence that right- view must always be present. Bodhisatta fulfilled paramis even during animal and lowly births. Sukin: :-) As I said, I am not clear about this. True, metta is metta, alobha is alobha, and there is no difference if this arises in a Moslem or a Buddhist. Only what comes before and after may be quite different. Perhaps it is these other cittas which make a difference? Maybe it is here, depending on the wrong view and lack of, that attitudes towards the object of metta, dana, sila, khanti, Viriya and so on is decisive? Even when there is no Right View, difference is there between moments and peoples, in terms of attitudes towards other forms of kusala? For example, one may aim for eternity in heaven and another simply thinks in terms of the other's well-being? --------------------------- > In any case, K. Sujin also reminded us about the uselessness of being > overly concerned about the development of parami. I guess that is > because in this matter, we are liable to think of how `I' can develop > parami, and this would be self-defeating. Kel: Well still doesn't make it consistent. The usual danger is being conceited after acts of charity. There's no monopoly on the act of charity itself for Buddhists ... Sukin: No monopoly of course, otherwise we are all doomed. But you would agree wouldn't you, that viewing the development of kusala in light of the development of Parami and how each of these are related, makes a huge difference in how we will approach the Dhamma, or whether we will appreciate the Dhamma at all? Don't you see a great danger in wrong view, such that even if presently someone is kind and generous, that this can easily change simply by force of the accumulated self-view? It is time to leave for the foundation now. Metta, Sukin. #62569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:05 am Subject: Re: Rob K' forum on Mindfulness of Breathing nilovg Hi Kel and James, Kel quotes: 186: So if a clansman who is a beginner wants to develop this meditation subject, and through insight based on the fourth jhana produced in breathing, to reach Arahantship together with the discriminations, he should first do all the work connected with the purification ov virtue, etc., in the way already described, after which he should learn the meditation subject in five stages from a teacher of the kind already described. ------- N: I fully understand James that one should continue with the whole quote. James, you surely have a point here. However, I would like to study the beginning of the passage, quoted by Kel. This indicates the goal: arahatship with the four discriminations. Remember the four: of result, meaning or purpose (attha), of cause (dhamma), of language (nirutti) and the knowledge with regard to the first three (pa.tibhaana). The Buddha had the highest degree of these special kinds of knowledge, and his great disciples also had these, but in a lesser degree. Arahats had different degrees of knowledge, and some arahats were without these. Breath had to be developed to the degree that the fourth jhaana could be attained. There had to be masteries of jhaana (enter and emerge at will, etc.) and then jhaana could be a base for insight, but still all the stages of insight had to be developed. We should not take this passage lightly. I prefer to post from Rob's forum part by part, and later on, the passage of Buddha's sons will be dealt with later on. Meanwhile, it may be clearer what Jon meant when he said, < To my understanding, that particular passage is an instruction specially directed to those who were already adept at samatha of a high level with breath as object. In the words of the commentary (p. 54 of Soma Thera's translation), "This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing".> Nina. #62570 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Addiction to quietness? nilovg Dear Connie, thank you so much for all your quotes, what an enormous typing work for you. As you said, this addresses many recent threads, such as the kaliyana mitta! Perhaps we should cut it up in smaller portions, than repost for reflection. With appreciation, Nina. Op 18-aug-2006, om 4:09 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > The commentary on the Meghiya sutta is beautiful and addresses, i > think, > a lot of other recent threads as well, but arent the teachings all > of one > taste anyway? #62571 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:54 am Subject: Rob's forum on Mindfulness of Breath, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, this is a continuation of a quote from Rob K: < One can have subtle desire for just a little more calmness, a little more clarity of mind. And if so one is not developing vipassana. This slight desire moves one out of the present moment - one doesn't want to see what is there at this very moment. If we are sittting crosslegged now and we feel we have to stand to have awareness, or read a Dhamma book, then that would show a misunderstanding. I feel the issue of positions becomes irrelevant to vippasana bhavana to the degree that there is understanding of the objects for sati (all paramatha dhammas). For sure some people are going to want to sit quietly more than others. But it should be by their accumulations, their nature, rather than because they think it is the condition for insight. Also it takes time for everyone to understand how to be aware: that is to be aware without craving for some experience. Seeing and colour are objects that the Buddha mentioned time and again and yet so few people seem to be interested in these objects. But why? Because of colours and seeing so many concepts are formed up in the following mind-door processes. If there is not awareness in association with wise attention (yoniso manisikara) after seeing then there will be ignorance or craving or dosa. One will believe (attasanna -self perception) that one sees people, friends, enemies, neutral ones, or computers, cars etc.. But seeing only experiences colours. Panna (insight) in conjunction with sati and samadhi and other factors can understand this and break the wheel of dependent origination (paticcasamupada) there and then. Not necessary to be watching the breath or sitting in the full lotus for this to happen robert Dear R. E., I think there are many reasons why the breath is so popular. For one thing it is the basis from which all Buddhas attain enlightenment. For another it is highly praised by the Buddha.The breath is in many ways a neutral object, hence it can be said to be suitable for all personality types.It is especially good for quieting discursive thought. However, as we see it is not recommended for all. Breath as an object of samatha is difficult. If it is being developed correctly the citta that knows breath is associated with panna (wisdom ) and alobha(detachment)- Sometimes we can know breath BUT with lobha (attachment).However, even if it is an object of attachment it may still have benefits (in a conventional way)- it can be good for health or help to reduce the amount of thinking one does (hence less worries). It can help concentration too. It doesn't interfere with one's views when it is used in this way. Even fanatical terrorists could profitably develop it (in the attachment way - not as true samatha) as a way to relax themselves and focus the mind. Whereas such objects as Dhammanusati or Buddhanusati (ones that don't need special posture and that the Buddha specifically recommended to laypeople) will have an impact on view- and hence may not seem so appealing.> (end quote). ****** Nina. #62572 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:16 am Subject: foundation discussions, eyebase and eyedoor. nilovg Dear Sarah, Azita and all, Sarah writes: Also, Azita on eye-base as base for seeing consciousness but not for other cittas in the process. However, it continues to act as door (dvara) for them. Again, if you can give the Vism ref, Nina or others will add more, I'm sure. ------- N: I can quote from Dhamma Issues, which I translated from Thai. Here eyebase is considered under the aspect of aayatana: < The åyatanas, sometimes translated as bases or sense-fields are: six internal bases: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness (manåyatana), six external bases: which are six classes of objects: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and mind-object (dhammåyatana), comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna. **** Issues of analysis: 1: Is the eyesense (the cakkhu pasåda rúpa) åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process or only at the moment when seeing (cakkhuviññåùa) arises? And the same for the other sense-organs. Conclusion regarding the first issue: In the five sense-door processes the eye-sense (cakkhu pasåda rúpa) etc. is åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process, not only at the moment seeing (cakkhuviññåùa) arises. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The “Dispeller of Delusion”, Sammohavinodaní, the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 2, Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), Suttanta Division. 2. Visuddhimagga, Ch XV, Description of the Bases and Elements. The reason for this conclusion is given by the “Dispeller of Delusion”, Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), and the Visuddhimagga (XV, 10). We read in the “Visuddhimagga”: “For only the åyatana of the eye-base is the door of arising, and only the åyatana of visible object is the object of the consciousness group (viññåùa kåya) comprised in a cognitive series containing eye-consciousness.” This shows that the rúpa of eyesense (cakkhuppasåda rúpa) is the eye- door and the åyatana of the eye (cakkhåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process and that evenso visible object is the åyatana of visible object (rúpåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process. The reason is that both the eye-sense and the visible object are realities which have not fallen away yet and that they are “associating” at each moment of citta of the eye-door process. ______ N: When visible object impinges on the eyesense there is not only seeing which experiences it, but also other cittas arising in a process which experience visible object through the eye-door while they perform their own function. It is the same in the case of the other other sense-door processes. Eyesense is physical base of origin, vatthu, only for seeing, and the other cittas arising in that process have the heartbase as their physical place of origin. Eyesense functions as doorway for all the cittas arising in the eye-door process, not only for seeing. *** Nina. #62573 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:17 am Subject: Photos of August 2006 discussions sukinderpal All, Just uploaded 3 photos of today's discussions. They were taken with a mobile telephone, therefore the quality is not so good. Metta, Sukin. #62574 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe 53 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 8 Ahetuka Cittas (Rootless Cittas) If we want to know ourselves we should not merely know the moments of akusala cittas or kusala cittas but other moments as well. When we see something ugly, we dislike what we see. At the moment of dislike there is akusala citta rooted in dosa (aversion). Before there is dislike, however, there must be moments of merely seeing visible object. At these moments there are not yet akusala cittas, but cittas which are without ``root'' (in Påli: hetu). There are six cetasikas which are hetu or root. Three of these hetus are akusala; they are: lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) and moha (ignorance). Three hetus are sobhana (beautiful); they are: alobha (greedlessness or generosity), adosa (non-hate or loving kindness) and amoha (paññå or wisdom). The citta or cetasika which is accompanied by a hetu is sahetuka (``sa'' means ``with''). For example, dosa-múla-citta is sahetuka; moha and dosa are the hetus which arise with dosa-múla-citta. Cittas without hetu are ahetuka cittas. There are many ahetuka cittas arising in a day. Whenever we see, hear, smell, taste or experience tangible object through the bodysense, there are ahetuka cittas before cittas with akusala hetus or with sobhana hetus arise. We are inclined to pay attention only to the moments of like and dislike, but we should know other moments as well; we should know ahetuka cittas. There are altogether eighteen types of ahetuka citta. As I will explain, fifteen types of ahetuka cittas are vipåkacittas and three types are kiriyacittas (cittas which are ``inoperative'', neither cause nor result). Seven of the fifteen ahetuka vipåkacittas are akusala vipåkacittas (results of unwholesome deeds) and eight of them are kusala vipåkacittas (results of wholesome deeds). When a pleasant or an unpleasant object impinges on the eyesense, seeing- consciousness only experiences what appears through the eyes, there is no like or dislike yet of the object. Seeing-consciousness is an ahetuka vipåkacitta. Cittas which like or dislike the object arise later on; these are sahetuka cittas (arising with hetus). ***** Nina #62575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 34 nilovg Dear friends, Sound is a reality which presents itself time and again. Sound can be directly experienced, but sound itself does not know anything, it is different from hearing. Flavour can be experienced by tasting- consciousness, but flavour itself does not know anything. It is different from tasting-consciousness. There are two kinds of phenomena in our life: the reality which knows or experiences something, nama, the reality which does not know anything, rupa. Generosity, kindness, aversion, seeing or hearing are mental phenomena or namas, they experience different objects. Sound, flavour, hardness, softness, heat or cold are physical phenomena or rupas, they do not know anything. Everything which is real can be directly experienced through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind- door, thus, through six doorways. If we want to know whether something is real we should ask ourselves: can it be directly experienced and through which of the six doorways? ******* Nina. #62576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Photos of August 2006 discussions nilovg Dear Sukin, very nice, seems an interesting discussion with Ven. Dhammanando and Rob. Could you report? Nina. Op 19-aug-2006, om 17:17 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > All, > > Just uploaded 3 photos of today's discussions. They were taken with a > mobile telephone, therefore the quality is not so good. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > > #62577 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:09 pm Subject: eCard from Bangkok - Sunday morning jonoabb Hi All A very brief report on yesterday's discussion, the last of our present visit. A very full room, it being a regular Saturday afternoon session. We were fortunate to be joined by Ven. Dhammanando whom many of you will know from the list (although he hasn't posted here for a while). Ven. Dh is very erudite and has studied the ancient Pali grammars. He is presently attending an Abhidhamma course that focusses on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and its commentaries. The discussion covered the usual wide range of topics, including of course the meaning of references in the texts to knowing the presently arising dhamma. Sarah and I leave Bangkok later today (for Sydney). Will be following the list closely, and hopefully posting also (as time permits). Jon #62578 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: Re: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 buddhatrue Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > I am absolutely flabbergasted and more than a little irritated that > this passage of the Vism. has been so often misrepresented in > DSG!!! The people who misquote this passage should be absolutely > ashamed of themselves, and that includes the precious Rob K.!! Apologies to all, especially Rob K., for this snarky post. I let my aversion get the best of me. Metta, James #62579 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:34 pm Subject: Re: Rob K' forum on Mindfulness of Breathing buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Kel and James, > Kel quotes: > > 186: So if a clansman who is a beginner wants to develop this > meditation subject, and through insight based on the fourth jhana > produced in breathing, to reach Arahantship together with the > discriminations, he should first do all the work connected with the > purification ov virtue, etc., in the way already described, after > which he should learn the meditation subject in five stages from a > teacher of the kind already described. > ------- > N: I fully understand James that one should continue with the whole > quote. James, you surely have a point here. > However, I would like to study the beginning of the passage, quoted > by Kel. > This indicates the goal: arahatship with the four discriminations. > Remember the four: of result, meaning or purpose (attha), of cause > (dhamma), of language (nirutti) and the knowledge with regard to the > first three (pa.tibhaana). The Buddha had the highest degree of > these special kinds of knowledge, and his great disciples also had > these, but in a lesser degree. Arahats had different degrees of > knowledge, and some arahats were without these. > Breath had to be developed to the degree that the fourth jhaana could > be attained. There had to be masteries of jhaana (enter and emerge at > will, etc.) and then jhaana could be a base for insight, but still > all the stages of insight had to be developed. > We should not take this passage lightly. > I prefer to post from Rob's forum part by part, and later on, the > passage of Buddha's sons will be dealt with later on. > Meanwhile, it may be clearer what Jon meant when he said, > < To my understanding, that particular passage is an instruction > specially directed to those who were already adept at samatha of a > high level with breath as object. In the words of the commentary (p. > 54 of Soma Thera's translation), "This is the portal to emancipation > of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing".> > Nina. I don't quite get what you are saying. The passage starts out with "So if a clansman who is a beginner.." These are obviously instructions for a beginner. It says beginner, beginner means beginner. What do you not understand about beginner? The passage isn't for anyone of any special talents or background, it is for the beginner. Metta, James #62580 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah jonoabb Hi James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sure, that CAN happen. When speaking hypothetically we could say > almost anything COULD happen. I think the real question is how often > that will happen and how to create the conditions so that it will > happen more often. Yes, but I'd like to suggest that our primary concern should be knowing the moments of metta (and other kusala) that occur now, naturally, in our daily life, rather than ways of having more metta or becoming a person who radiates metta to the world at large. Actually, I would go even further and say that our primary concern should be knowing any of the dhammas appearing now in our daily life. In this regard it matters not whether the present mind state is kusala or akusala — either is equally to be known as it truly is. Jon #62581 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi sutta SN 35.99 jonoabb Hi Howard (and Mateesha) Thanks for coming in on this thread. The reason I didn't post my own views on the questions I asked of Mateesha is that I was interested to hear what Mateesha had to say about certain aspects of his approach that remain a problem for me (and besides I think my views are pretty well known to members already ;-)). So if you don't mind I'll raise the same questions with you. Howard: Jon, in this post of yours and in the last one you ask questions of Matheesha but don't provide your own answers. For me the answers are clear: Concentration *should* be intentionally developed as it is an important condition for the development of wisdom. (When the Buddha says "do this", as in "develop concentration", he is urging the taking of an intentional action.) Jon: These comments relate I think to the sutta passage that reads: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." My question on this is, What is the development of concentration referred to in the sutta quote? I think you would say it is something that precedes the moment of actual insight into presently arising dhammas (discerning of things as they actually are present). In your view, is it samatha or is it some other (and if so what) mind-state. An example would help. Howard: As for concentration being a requisite for wisdom - one of several, of course - do you not recall the post I copy at the end? A post that you and I seemed to be on agreement with regard to? Jon: I of course accept the sutta passage quoted above (and the one at the end), but for reasons explained at length in other posts with Mateesha I see it as referring to the samadhi that arises together with insight. Do you remember the sutta I quoted from AN IV's? Howard: As for how samadhi is developed, in addition to the many suttas in which the Buddha urges secusion and practice with the jhanas, there is all the detailed discussion by Buddhaghosa of meditation practice. (And Buddhaghosa wasn't a modern man confused about "meditation", he was the compiler of the commentarial tradition as it has come down to us.) Jon: If you are referring to the 'Samadhi' section (Part II) of the Vism, please see my recent post commenting on the significance of the passage from Ch III quoted by Kel that reads: "The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned under that 'of two kinds of mundane and supramundane', etc. is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed." As I read that passage it's saying that the samadhi associated with vipassana is developed along with the development of vipassana itself. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/62533) Howard: And in the context of the development of samadhi, I view the "samadhi" as referring not only to momentary focus of attention, but to a generally concentrated mind - a mind that has been trained to typically pay sharp intenion at most times and which has been calmed by jhana practice. I view the development of samadhi to refer to a process of conditioning the mind, making it a more fit tool for investigation of dhammas. Jon: Yes, but the essential question to consider is whether, according to the recorded teachings, the arising of insight is (or is not) possible without any special 'training' in samadhi. If some special training is said to be necessary, what is the minimum level of such training? To my understanding, the main and indispensable conditions for the arising of insight in this lifetime, as found in the recorded teachings, are (a) having developed insight in previous lifetimes, and (b) having heard, understood and reflected on the teachings on insight in this lifetime and related what has been understood to the present moment. Howard: A prior post of mine showing concentration as requisite for insight: Jon: In the sutta passage you quote, concentration is given as one of several relevant factors (the ones preceding it being Virtuous ways of conduct, Non-remorse, Gladness, Joy, Serenity and Happiness) and is not singled out for any particular emphasis. So are we to read this as suggesting the need for some special training in these other factors also? Jon Howard's previous post <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From: upasaka@a... Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:35 am Subject: Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Jon - I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain of conditionality: (Virtuous ways of conduct, Non-remorse, Gladness, Joy, Serenity and Happiness) -> Virtuous ways of conduct -> Non-remorse -> Gladness -> Joy -> Serenity -> Happiness -> Concentration of the mind -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #62582 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher jonoabb Hi Howard Howard: In part of the PTI article on kamma, there is the follwing difficult-to-read material: Jon: I think you mean 'kammatthaana', not 'kamma'? I agree that in the context of the development of jhaana it is recommended that one proceed by placing oneself under a teacher. However, this is a rather special case, and in any event is not a hard and fast rule. Howard: These subjects of meditation are given as 38 at DhsA 168 (cp. Cpd. 202), as 32 (dvatti?s' akara -- k°) at Vism 240 sq., as 40 at Vism 110 sq. (in detail); as pañca -- sandhika at Vism 277; some of them are mentioned at J i.116; DhA i.221, 336; iv.90; -- °? anuyuñjati to give oneself up to meditation Sasv 151; PvA 61; -- °? ugga?hati to accept from his teacher a particular instrument of meditation Vism 277 sq. (also °assa uggaho & ugga?hana); KhA 40; DhA i.9, 262; iv.106; PvA 42; -- °? katheti to teach a pupil how to meditate on one of the k° DhA i.8, 248, 336; PvA 61; -- °? adasi DhA iv.106; °ga?hati J iii.246; Vism 89; °acikkhana instruction in a formula of exercise DhsA 246; °dayaka the giver of a k -- ??h° object, the spiritual adviser and teacher, who must be a kalya?amitta (q. v.), one who has entered the Path; I particularly draw your attention to the last clause: "the spiritual adviser and teacher, who must be a kalya?amitta (q. v.), one who has entered the Path" It is my understanding of the usage of the term that the kalyanamitta is typically advanced, at least in comparison to oneself. Jon: Again, I think this is limited to the context of the development of jhana. Jon #62583 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob's forum on Mindfulness of Breathing, no 1. jonoabb Hi Mateesha M: I'm embarrassed now. :) I didn't say that anything you said in that post was wrong! I guess what I was reacting to is using 'this was said for those highly developed in samatha' as almost a way of saying that it doesn't apply to us in this day and age. It (at least in me) evokes a sense of things done in Buddha's time, things done by monastic monks etc. A certain distant irrelevance. Jon: Nothing said or done in the Buddha's time was irrelevant to us now! Otherwise, there'd be no point in studying his teachings ;-)) But even for those living at the Buddha's time, not everything described/instructed by him was equally appropriate to everyone's situation. In particular, what was said to someone who was on the verge of attaining arahantship may not be particularly meaningful to someone not yet ready for attainment of the first vipassana naana (and we need to be realistic about our present level of development). M: There are many lay people who can attain jhana as the suttas themselves bear witness to. It is a very wholesome thing to aspire towards, and there maybe people here with undeveloped potential you are inadvertently giving the wrong impression to and stunting their path because both separate samatha and vipassana development is required. Jon: I don't think the few solitary voices you hear on DSG are going to deter any potential jhaana attainers ;-)). BTW, references in the suttas to attainment of jhaana by laypeople are not particularly numerous; it was far from being the norm among the Buddha's followers. M: I do understand that we often speak based on our own personal experience and what worked for us. But to take that to mean that nothing else works is stretching it (no, and you didn't suggest that- I'm just commenting :)). This is the type of thinking which gives rise to different teachers and different methods, who are sometimes at loggerheads with each other. Having a wide range of methods (all hopefully based on satipatthana) is a good thing. Claiming ekayana magga for each one is not! Jon: Agreed! The best thing as far as discussion goes is to stick to what is in the texts. Jon #62584 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] addiction to quietness? jonoabb Hi Rob Good to see you back. Hope we see much of you here ;-)) Jon --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Howard (and all), > I told Jon today I planned to return to dsg in a few months, but I > appreciate your comments on about my perspective so being in > Bangkok and all, it seems like a good time to write today. You are right > > that I have some zen in my past:even till now, I like some writing of > the > Zen teacher Toni Packer. > We should discuss more about wu wei and right effort etc. > Robert #62585 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 jonoabb Hi Kel (and Nina) --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Jon and Nina, > > Kel: I can understand your argument that it is a difficult subject > and not for just anyone. But to my reading, it did not say it's not to > be used at all. Mindfulness of breathing is one meditation subject > suitable for one of deluded temperament and for one of speculative > temperament. (Vsm II 121) How do you understand the following also > especially for 'beginners': Jon: Kel, Nina has already commented on the passage. For those who may have missed it, I repost her comments here: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< However, I would like to study the beginning of the passage, quoted by Kel. This indicates the goal: arahatship with the four discriminations. Remember the four: of result, meaning or purpose (attha), of cause (dhamma), of language (nirutti) and the knowledge with regard to the first three (pa.tibhaana). The Buddha had the highest degree of these special kinds of knowledge, and his great disciples also had these, but in a lesser degree. Arahats had different degrees of knowledge, and some arahats were without these. Breath had to be developed to the degree that the fourth jhaana could be attained. There had to be masteries of jhaana (enter and emerge at will, etc.) and then jhaana could be a base for insight, but still all the stages of insight had to be developed. We should not take this passage lightly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So the passage is not to be read as recommending anapanasati as a suitable samatha-object for beginners generally. Jon > Vsm VII 186- > > 186: So if a clansman who is a beginner wants to develop this > meditation subject, and through insight based on the fourth jhana > produced in breathing, to reach Arahantship together with the > discriminations, he should first do all the work connected with the > purification ov virtue, etc., in the way already described, after > which he should learn the meditation subject in five stages from a > teacher of the kind already described. #62586 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: foundation discussions, eyebase and eyedoor. gazita2002 Hello Nina, this has always been a 'knotty' issue for me. I brought it up before, so obviously it wasnt time then for me to understand and maybe not even now :-( That is what a discussion group is for, isnt it? If one has questions, doubts about anything in the Tipitika one can ask, see if it makes sense, if not maybe not the time to pursue it or maybe the very time to persist and ask and ask again. It has become a little clearer why the Buddha encouraged the people to not take what he said for the truth but to test it out themselves. If we blindly follow his teachings, then we could become very confused. On the other hand, if there is some deeper understanding, an understanding that knows that this visible object is really not what we think it is, but a dhamma experienced by seeing consciousness, that arises and falls away xtremely quickly, to be rapidly followed by more consciousnesses [cittas] that think about what was seen, that takes that seen object and kind of mixes it up with other seen, heard, tasted, touched objects. Following a sense door experience, there are many mind door experiences which creates a story about what was seen, heard etc. Because of ignorance, and there is certainly a lot of that - I speak for myself here, cant speak for the others - one cannot see or know those sense objects for what they really are, momentary and unable to be made to stay. The Buddha did talk about the eye and objects seen by eye as impermanent etc, and I think that its one thing to know about this but I think it is another thing to really really see how impermanent that means. I think maybe this is what Buddha meant when he said for us to find out for ourselves, to develop an understanding that gradually grows to the point of REALLy knowing impermanence, anatta and dukkha. No one, not even a Buddha can do that for us. Sure, Buddhas show the way but unless it is understanding of a presently arising object , overe and over and over again, so that there is deeper and deeper understanding, then we can spend literally forever looking for a way out of the wheel of life. I guess I'll continue to take this visible object for something, someone and this body for me, but at least there is some basic understanding that that is what is happening, and maybe this basic understanding may grow and eventually realise the truth about sense door and mind door objects, but until then :-) I'll ponder over and ask questions about doorways and objects and consciousness etc. BTW. Nina, thank you for this wonderful explanation, and its becoming a little clearer, on the intellectual level. I love your energy to answer questions so thoughtfully. patience, courage and good cheer, azita. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Azita and all, > Sarah writes: > Also, Azita on eye-base as base for seeing consciousness but not for > other cittas in the process. However, it continues to act as door > (dvara) > for them. Again, if you can give the Vism ref, Nina or others will add > more, I'm sure. > -------...snip... > N: When visible object impinges on the eyesense there is not only > seeing which experiences it, but also other cittas arising in a > process which experience visible object through the eye-door while > they perform their own function. It is the same in the case of the > other other sense-door processes. > > Eyesense is physical base of origin, vatthu, only for seeing, and the > other cittas arising in that process have the heartbase as their > physical place of origin. Eyesense functions as doorway for all the > cittas arising in the eye-door process, not only for seeing. > > *** > Nina. #62587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:47 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 95 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 95. Dissociation-condition, vippayutta-paccaya. Intro: In the preceding section the Visuddhimagga dealt with association- condition, sampayutta paccaya. Naamas that are conascent support each other by way of association condition. They are closely conjoined with each other. Dissociation-condition is entirely different, it pertains to ruupa that conditions naama and naama that conditions ruupa. The nature of naama is completely different from the nature of ruupa, they cannot condition one another by way of association. In the case of dissociation-condition, the conditioning dhamma can arise at the same time as the dhamma it conditions, it can arise before it or it can arise after it. Thus, dissociation-condition can be conascent, prenascent or postnascent. ------------ Text Vis.95: (20) Material states that assist immaterial states, and immaterial states that assist material states by not having sameness of physical basis, etc. are 'dissociation conditions'. ------- N: As we have seen, naamas that assist each other by association- condition have the same physical basis, the same object, the same arising, and the same cessation. This cannot be said of the dhammas that assist one another by way of dissociation-condition. The Tiika explains that they are connected in as far as they condition one another, but that they are separated by being dissociated in nature and thus, they give assistance by way of dissociation-condition. --------- Text Vis.: This is threefold as conascent, postnascent, and prenascent, for this is said: 'Conascent profitable aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for the kinds of materiality originated by consciousness. Postnascent profitable [mental] aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for this prenascent body' (P.tn.1,176). ---------- N: With regard to conascent dissociation condition, kusala citta or akusala citta may produce different facial expressions. Then there are mind-produced ruupas that are conascent with citta, and these ruupas are conditioned by citta by way of conascent dissociation condition. With regard to post-nascence dissociation condition, citta and its accompanying cetasikas support the ruupas of the body which have arisen previously and have not fallen away yet. Citta supports and consolidates these ruupas which are still present, since ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. As to prenascent dissociation condition, as we shall see, the physical bases (vatthus) condition citta by way of this condition. They arise before the citta they condition. --------- Text Vis.:But in the analysis of the conascent in the indeterminate clause it is said: 'At the moment of rebirth-linking, resultant indeterminate aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed. The aggregates are a condition, as dissociation condition, for the physical basis, and the physical basis for the aggregates' (P.tn.1,176). ----------- N: At the moment of rebirth, kamma produces the citta that is rebirth- consciousness and the heartbase at the same time, and these conascent dhammas support each other by way of dissociation-condition. ------------ Text Vis.: But the prenascent should be understood as the eye faculty, etc., and the physical basis, according as it is said: 'The prenascent eye base [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for eye consciousness ... The body base is a condition, as dissociation condition, for body consciousness. The physical basis [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for resultant-indeterminate and functional-indeterminate aggregates.... The physical basis [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for profitable aggregates.... The physical basis [is a condition, as dissociation condition,] for unprofitable aggregates' (P.tn.1,176-77). ------- N: The Tiika mentions six bases, the five sense-bases and the heart- base that support the naama-khandhas by way of prenascent dissociation-condition. The ruupa that is base must arise before the citta and cetasikas it conditions, because ruupa is weak at its arising moment. It lasts longer than citta and thus it can condition citta after it has arisen. The Tiika states that the aayatanas of visible object and so on which are aaramma.na dhammas, are dissociated dhammas (vippayutta dhammas) but not dissociation-condition, vippayutta-paccaya. U Narada (Guide to Conditional Relations, p. 70) states: The sense objects are external aayatanas which impinge on the relevant senses, which are the inner aayatanas. The Tiika explains that a sense-cognition, such as seeing-consciousness, arises as it were from within a sense-base such as eyesense, and there may be doubt as to whether the sense-cognitions and the sense-bases are associated or dissociated. U Narada explains (p. 70): <...this dissociation-condition is expounded to dispel any doubt as to whether eye-base and eye- consciousness are associated or not. Actually they are not associated.> The Tiika states that the conditions of association and dissociation do not pertain to Nibbaana. Nibbaana, the unconditioned element, is naama, but it is completely different from citta and cetasika which experience an object. Nibbaana does not experience an object. The Tiika states that Nibbaana is not association-condition for aruupadhammas nor dissociation-condition for ruupa-dhammas. ******* Conclusion: Dissociation-condition operates at this moment. Our body is supported by naama, it could not function without citta and cetasikas that consolidate it by postnascence dissociation-condition. All our experiences in life could not occur without the support of the physical bases which support these experiences by way of prenascent dissociation-condition. Our life is naama and ruupa but naama is entirely different from ruupa. Naama experiences an object whereas ruupa does not experience anything. Although naama and ruupa support one another, they are not as closely connected as citta and cetasikas, naamas that arise together and condition one another by way of association-condition. The dissociation-condition reminds us that the nature of naama is entirely different from the nature of ruupa. The sense-bases and the heartbase have to arise before the conditioned dhamma, the citta which is dependent on them and thus, they condition citta by way of prenascent dissociation-condition. As we have seen, the heartbase at the first moment of life arises at the same time as the rebirth-consciousness and at that moment the heartbase and the citta condition one another by way of conascent dissociation-condition. During life, however, the heartbase arises before the citta which is dependent on it. When we feel pain we can be reminded that the body-base (bodysense) is ruupa which is dissociated from painful feeling which is naama; the body- base conditions the painful feeling by way of prenascent dissociation- condition. When naama and ruupa are not distinguished from each other we cling to a "whole'' of mind and body, we take them for "mine” or "self'' and they seem to last. We keep on thinking of "my sensitive body'' and "my painful feeling''. The body-base which is the base for body-consciousness and for the accompanying painful feeling is only an extremely tiny ruupa which arises and falls away. Painful feeling does not last either, it falls away immediately. Thus, when we think of our painful feeling it has gone already. When we learn through satipa.t.thaana to distinguish thecharacteristic of naama from the characteristic of ruupa, we will be less inclined to think of a self who feels pain. We should learn to understand dissociation-condition not only in theory but also by the development of insight that directly knows the different characteristics of naama and ruupa when they appear. ******* Nina. #62588 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:57 am Subject: Saturday discussion report (a) sarahprocter... Dear All, Some more on the topics from Saturday's discussion. (Thx Sukin for the pics -- in the last one round the table are Jon, Peter Swan (an old friend), Ven Dhammanando, RobK, Sukin's empty chair(!), Ell (Matt's wife), Azita and just the back of K.Sujin. Other quieter friends are in the background. Jon's already said how glad we all were to welcome Ven Dhammanando. At the outset he stressed that he didn't need 'a throne'(!) and we should carry on as usual which we did. I appreciated his friendliness, good humour and keen interest in the topics being discussed. Here goes with what I can muster up as we get ready to leave. (Larry, our flight is at around the same time and the same airline as the one taking the JonBennet suspect back to the States, so we're expecting to find a media circus at the airport). - understanding of dhammas now, always coming back to visible object appearing now, whatever the topic raised. If there's no understanding of the reality appearing right now, what's the use of all the study? Just that which is seen. - the imperfections of insight - if there's no understanding of visible object, we don't need to be concerned with this. - How can we be sure it's panna? If we think something is permanent, it's not panna. The 24 paccayas brings about the arising of realities whether panna or any other. - More on the parami and whether the kusala of samatha can be a condition. Follow Sukin's thread with Kel. When there's no teaching available, it's jsut the accumulation of kusala of various kinds arising. It depends on the degree of panna developed as to whether it can condition understanding in future lives - like waking up from a dream. What about developing panna and not minding about parami? - An interesting question about if a sotapanna were to be reborn as a human, would it be known from the beginning that he/she were a sotapanna? No cases in the texts of rebirth in the human realm. If there were any doubt, not a sotapanna. For a sotapanna, no need for an external 'trigger' for insight to arise. -sankharupekkha nana and savaka - the meanings. Sankharupekkha nana - equanimity towards all conditioned dhammas. At this stage, enlightenment seems assured because it's the very firm insight. A question about whether the crow simile applies to this or to the insights up to this level. In any case, no need to call any insight this or that. A pacceka Buddha couldn't state what level of insight is there, so who are we? When it's there, it's there. When we think of a crow we may be misled by the idea of a flying black bird:-). Savaka - no disagreements as discussed the day before. to be contd ============== #62589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: foundation discussions, eyebase and eyedoor. nilovg Dear Azita, thank you for your excellent post, well worth thinking it over. True, visible object is not what we think it is and it is helpful to at least realize this. We have to find out for ourselves. Your post reflects the useful discussions you had and I hope to hear more from you. Nina. Op 20-aug-2006, om 9:37 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > It has become a little clearer why the Buddha encouraged the > people to not take what he said for the truth but to test it out > themselves. If we blindly follow his teachings, then we could become > very confused. > > On the other hand, if there is some deeper understanding, an > understanding that knows that this visible object is really not > what we > think it is, but a dhamma experienced by seeing consciousness, that > arises and falls away xtremely quickly, to be rapidly followed by more > consciousnesses [cittas] that think about what was seen, that takes > that > seen object and kind of mixes it up with other seen, heard, tasted, > touched objects. Following a sense door experience, there are many > mind door experiences which creates a story about what was seen, > heard etc. > Because of ignorance, and there is certainly a lot of that - I speak > for myself here, cant speak for the others - one cannot see or know > those sense objects for what they really are, momentary and unable to > be made to stay. #62590 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Saturday discussion report (a) sarahprocter... All, Oh dear, I've just lost the rest of the update (b) and (c) into cyberspace....maybe from Oz sometime.... In a rush now. S. #62591 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob K' forum. So long in the cycle. nilovg Hi James, Howard and all, Op 20-aug-2006, om 6:34 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > It says beginner, beginner means > beginner. What do you not understand about beginner? The passage > isn't for anyone of any special talents or background, it is for the > beginner. ----------- James, as I get it from the texts, he is a beginner, but still with special talents or background. An arahat has to begin. So, this is encouraging. I hope things will be clearer as my quotes from Rob's forum continue. The subject of mindfulness of breathing is far more intricate than one would think. It is not simply following one's breathing, because the question is: how does one follow it? Is there pa~n~naa? With Azita I would say, keep on asking when things are not clear. We should not blindly follow what the Buddha said but find out for ourselves. I know that this is your opinion also. When Lodewijk and I were on our trip we discussed another point of yours, which is connected with this one above. You become discouraged when you hear that the way to the end of the cycle is very long. I am so used to these texts and I had not realized that they may be discouraging. So I thought that perhaps more explanation is necessary. We have been in this cycle already for aeons, because of ignorance and craving. These are deeply rooted latent tendencies that can condition the arising of all kinds of unwholesomeness, unexpectly, unforeseeably. We may be surprised ourselves. When we consider more our latent tendencies we shall be more convinced that it takes ages to get rid of defilements. When you read the Psalms of Brothers and Sisters (Thera-theriigathaa) you see that they had traversed aeons of past lives before they finally could attain arahatship. Lodewijk said that he used to feel like you, but now he does not find it depressing that it will take aeons to develop understanding. When we pay attention to our task at this moment, there is no worry about the future ahead of us. I think that we have to be grateful to have met the Dhamma and this is our island. Lodewijk added another point. There is of course a danger of complacency when we say: it will take aeons. We may think: O, well, it takes aeons, and there may be a lack of urgency to develop understanding right now. Howard is always so concerned about this point. Lodewijk also said, it is not easy to find a balanced outlook, because human nature, in conventional sense, is inclined to continue to stick to sensual desires. He likes watching T.V., enjoys good meals and wine, etc. I remarked that it is through understanding that a balance can be found. Certainly not through forcing oneself, because at such a moment it is again self, self that is doing something. This morning I listened to a Thai session. Kh. Sujin said that one is not lazy when listening to the Dhamma. She also said that the more one listenes the more one sees that the Dhamma is not easy to understand. Again, this is not discouraging. One comes to see the subtlety of the dhamma. Kh. Nipat remarked that listening is not just hearing, it is also rightly considering, and this means considering the reality appearing right now. Then there is no ignorance, no clinging. Each time of listening is useful, there is a little more understanding. If we want to have a great deal of understanding, we are not without attachment, and then the time in the cycle will become even longer. For your encouragement I would like to quote from Kh. Sujin's Perfections, but in a separate post, otherwise this post is too long. Nina. #62592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:49 am Subject: so long in the cycle. nilovg Dear James and friends, here is a quote from Kh Sujin's Perfection on the perfection of wisdom: < If pa~n~nå arises we can understand that the cycle of birth and death we have traversed thus far is extremely long. So long as pa~n~nå has not become accomplished, the path leading to the end of the cycle is still extremely long. Thus, as we read, for the development of pa~n~nå we have an extremely long way to go. We have to go to the further shore, into the direction of nibbåna, where, according to the Commentary, “we never went yet, not even in our dreams”. We need all ten perfections, because we have such an amount of defilements. It is not sufficient to only develop the perfection of pa~n~naa. If we do not understand what the perfections are and in what way we should develop them in our daily life, we cannot realize the four noble Truths, but we have merely vain expectations of achieving this. We do not know ourselves and we do not understand that we need the perfections which are a supporting condition for the development of kusala and for the elimination of akusala dhammas. When we have understood that satipa.t.thåna should be developed together with the perfections, there are conditions for the perfection of generosity, the giving away of things for the benefit of someone else, for the perfection of síla, the abstention from akusala kamma and the perfection of renunciation: detachment from visible object, sound and the other sense objects. This is a very gradual process, but at times someone may notice that he is inclined to become more detached from sense objects, that he has had already enough of them, and that he should not indulge in them too much. With regard to the perfection of pa~n~nå, most people are longing for pa~n~nå, but the perfection of pa~n~naa, that is, pa~n~naa that understands the characteristics of realities, cannot arise if one does not develop it. Generally people wish to know the truth of realities, but they should carefully investigate whether, at the moment of seeing, of the experience of the other sense objects or of thinking, they have the sincere desire (chanda) to know and to understand the characteristics of the realities that are appearing at those very moments. When someone really sees the benefit of pa~n~naa he needs to have energy and endurance, because the development of pa~n~naa is a difficult task which takes an endlessly long time. Understanding of the level of listening is only a foundation, it is not the perfection of pa~n~naa that is the condition for the realization of the four noble Truths. The perfection of pa~n~naa evolves with the development of the understanding of the characteristics of realities that are appearing. This includes the development of understanding of the level of listening, of considering realities, and also of the level of awareness of realities at this moment. We read in the Khuddhaka Nikåya, Cúlaniddesa, “Ajita’s Questions”: “ ‘Kusalo sabbadhammaana.m’, means: he is skilful in all dhammas. He knows that conditioned dhammas are impermanent, that conditioned dhammas are dukkha and that all dhammas are anattå.” In order to directly understand and penetrate the truth we should study the Dhamma in all details, so that we come to know the precise meaning of the term “all conditioned realities”, sankhåra dhammas. This includes everything that appears right now, and this is impermanent, it arises and falls away. The dhammas which arise and fall away are dukkha and all dhammas are anattå, non-self. > ****** Nina. #62593 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:07 am Subject: Re: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 kelvin_lwin Hi James, Here are two relevant portions with some context. I personally don't see the point Jon and Nina makes *shrug* First one: 154. Just as a man who tames a calf Would tie it to a post, so here Should his own mind by mindfulness Be firmly to the object tied. THis is how an abode is favorable to his development. Hence it was said above This signifis that he has found an abode favorable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing'. 155. Or alternatively, this mindfulness of breathing as a meditation subject -- which is foremost amont the various meditation subjects of all Buddhas, [some] Paccekabuddhas and [some] Buddhas' disciples as a basis for attaining distinction and abiding in bliss here and now -- is not easy to develop without leaving the neighborhood of villages, which resound with the noises of women, men, elephants, horses, etc., noise being a thorn to jhana (see A.v, 135), whereas in the forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set about discerning this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the basis for comprehension of formations [with insight], he can reach Arahantship, the highest fruit. This is why the Blessed One said 'gone to the forest', etc., in pointing out a favorable abode for him. 156 .. the Blessed One examines an abode as to its suitability for the meditator, and he directs, 'Devote yourself to the meditation subject here', and later on, when the meditator has devoted himself to the meditation subject and has reached Arahantship and says, 'The Blessed One is indeed fully enlightened', the Blessed One receives great honor. Second One: 211. Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. 212. Just as when doing needlework on a piece of fine cloth a fine needle is needed, and a still finer instrument for boring the needle's eye, so too, when developing this meditation subject, which resembles fine cloth, both the mindfulness, which is the counterpart of the needle, and the understanding associated with it, which is the counterpart of the instrument for boring the needle's eye, need to be strong. A bhikkhu must have the necessary mindfulness and understanding and must look for the in-breaths and out-breaths nowhere else than the place normally touched by them. #62594 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:14 am Subject: Re: Saturday discussion report (a) kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, > -sankharupekkha nana and savaka - the meanings. Sankharupekkha nana - > equanimity towards all conditioned dhammas. At this stage, enlightenment > seems assured because it's the very firm insight. A question about whether > the crow simile applies to this or to the insights up to this level. In > any case, no need to call any insight this or that. A pacceka Buddha > couldn't state what level of insight is there, so who are we? When it's > there, it's there. When we think of a crow we may be misled by the idea of > a flying black bird:-). Savaka - no disagreements as discussed the day > before. Kel: I can't help but feel the conclusions you reached are cop outs :/ #62595 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Scott 's question and more! kelvin_lwin Hi Sukin, > S: If I understand you right, I think that you are of the opinion that the > Paramis are accumulated and developed regardless of there being panna or > not? But would this mean also the panna of the samatha kind? I think you > will agree that 'development' is either of samatha or vipassana, and that > both these require some level of panna. So it is clear that the paramis are > developed only with panna. The issue however is that if whether the panna of > samatha works in this regard. Personally, I think it does, but I have not > brought this up with K. Sujin yet. Kel: Any kusala of sufficient volition should be considered paramis. I didn't agree it always have to have panna, that was my basic point. Dana can be any kusala citta for example. Else why have all these paramis? Just have panna would suffice. Nina's latest post on this didn't clarify this either. Samatha is accumulated to get the full powers, Buddhasatta as an ascetic always get them. > Sukin: I must be missing your point, because I don't see any inconsistency > here. The very fact that he had the great panna as you say, to become an > arahatta before aspiring to become a Sammasambuddha, shows that even in > those lives in which there was no Sasana, he was able to keep on developing > the parami, quite naturally, including when he was an animal. Nothing is > lost, and the accumulated panna and other kusala can have the effect in the > most unlikely settings, don't you think? Of course, the panna that insights > into the conditioned nature of reality is much higher and requires quite a > different "view" of things, but that which sees other aspects of reality, > such as impermanence and the value of kusala and harm in akusala, these can > arise, no? Kel: Nope, not what I said. One can be strong in one parami over the other. People who are strongest in Dana have developed the habit of giving. You should look at how Buddha encourage such people to practice the highest Dana. > True, metta is metta, alobha is alobha, and there is no difference if this > arises in a Moslem or a Buddhist. Only what comes before and after may be > quite different. Kel: Even for a Buddhist, what comes before and after may be quite different at different instances. That's why the kamma resultant is so intricate because of the secondary effects. > Perhaps it is these other cittas which make a difference? Maybe it is here, > depending on the wrong view and lack of, that attitudes towards the object > of metta, dana, sila, khanti, Viriya and so on is decisive? Even when there > is no Right View, difference is there between moments and peoples, in terms > of attitudes towards other forms of kusala? For example, one may aim for > eternity in heaven and another simply thinks in terms of the other's > well-being? kel: if someone is thinking simply of others' well being then it's fully kusala. There is just no need to worry about wrong view for such a person. Happy rebirth is always cited as the least you can expect. If it's already habitual then clearly it just comes naturally for them. > Sukin: No monopoly of course, otherwise we are all doomed. But you would > agree wouldn't you, that viewing the development of kusala in light of the > development of Parami and how each of these are related, makes a huge > difference in how we will approach the Dhamma, or whether we will appreciate > the Dhamma at all? Kel: I dont think so. If you truly understand each and practice correctly, the relationship is a given. > Don't you see a great danger in wrong view, such that even if presently > someone is kind and generous, that this can easily change simply by force of > the accumulated self-view? Kel: If it's genuine kindness and generosity then there's nothing to worry about. Accumulated anger can easily change the person too. Accumulated craving can also come in and make them think they're really great and wish for accolates. The danger is always 3- prong, don't necessarily have to single out one. - Kel #62596 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:52 am Subject: Re: Discussions at the Foundation contd (a) kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, > -More on Kel's and my discussion on previous insights. KS made a point > about if higher insights are attained, the enlightenment in that life (or > if a sudden death) in the next is inevitable, once there is the turning > away from conditioned dhammas. Kel: Well I hope you or her have some sources for this. I wonder what Ven Dhammando had to say about this since he graciously quoted us the original materials? > -Cula sotapannas as related to this. 'Niyaka' -Rebirth in hell realms -if > it's just one life, nothing special. Kel: This and next life guarantees are very special. What do five heinous crimes guarantee? > -Cula sotapanna - no more doubt about conditioned dhammas, but can still > be doubt about nibbana (not yet experienced)or other kinds. Kel: if there's any roots left, they can grow back again in other forms. - Kel #62597 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Scott 's question and more! kelvin_lwin Hi Sukin, ps. if panna is foremost in everything why is there different types of Buddhas? :/ - Kel #62598 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma teacher kelvin_lwin Hi Jon (Howard), > I agree that in the context of the development of jhaana it is recommended > that one proceed by placing oneself under a teacher. However, this is a > rather special case, and in any event is not a hard and fast rule. Vsm: So if someone with cankers destroyed is available, that is good If not, then one should take it from a non-returner, a once- returner, a stream-enterer, an ordinary man who has obtained jhana ... Kel: So RobK has pointed out that many arahants don't know jhana even during Buddha's time. Certainly lower aryans probably don't know jhana. So then why would one want a teacher who doesnt know jhana if having a teacher is only useful to learn jhana? - Kel #62599 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:29 am Subject: Re: Rob K's forum on Mindfulness of Breath. no 2 buddhatrue Hi Kel and all, Thank you for providing the full texts of these quotes from the Vism. Well, as I suspected, the one quote in question has been misquoted repeatedly here in DSG. By cutting off the remaining text of the quote, the entirely wrong impression is given. Here is what is usually quoted here: "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons." Okay, quoting just this section gives the impression that mindfulness of breathing is only fit for Buddhas, Paccekabuddha, and highly evolved monks. I always wondered why the Vism. would state this when the Buddha encouraged mindfulness of breathing in several suttas. Even his young son, as a beginning monk, was encouraged to practice mindfulness of breathing. However, when the cut off text of the cut is read, the meaning completely changes. Here is what is cut off: Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention…. In proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. So, now the meaning is no longer "Mindfulness of breathing is only meant for certain people" it is "Mindfulness of breathing is the most difficult meditation subject because it becomes more subtle as on progresses." These are two entirely different meanings, and this quote has been quite often misrepresented here in DSG. Really, I am very disgusted by this. I don't know how it is that people who are supposed to be your dhamma friends would so blatantly misquote texts in order to mislead others. It is a crying shame. Metta, James