#63800 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:57 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ------------------- KH: > > Right understanding of a presently arisen reality is the function of > panna. Like all conditioned dhammas, panna arises when the > conditions for its arising are in place. > > SB: > In that case, panna will never arise. ------------------ I don't know what you mean by that. What if the conditions for panna's arising were in place? Wouldn't it arise then? ----------------------------- SB: > The assumption that there will be conditions that will come into place for the arising of panna is just that, an assumption. It is pure wishful thinking, something like praying to God in vain. ----------------------------- I think you are saying we need to do something. But if, instead of sentient beings, there are really only fleeting, conditioned dhammas, would there be any need to do something? What would we need to do - rescue the conditioned dhammas? Since they disappear forever almost as soon as they have appeared - in what way could they be rescued? ------------------------------------ KH: > > What did you think of my interpretation of "mind" (as a fleeting > paramattha dhamma)? Can anything make that sort of mind less angry > than it is? > > SB: > In that case, the Buddha says of such a person as one who has no development of the mind. ------------------------------------ Let me put the question another way: Can anything change, or control, the presently arisen paramattha dhammas? Ken H #63801 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:59 pm Subject: Re: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas pgradinarov Dear Jon, >When you say '5 external senses' you are > referring to the rupas that are the 5 sense-bases, I believe. In what > sense do you see these as being external? In this classification, we have no right to refer to the five senses as rupas because they are listed in one group with manas, and the group is referred collectively as indriya (sense-organs, cognitive powers). It is the indriyas and their objects that make up the 12 ayatanas. Out of them, 5 sense-organs are defined as external (bahirindriya) and one, manas, as internal (antarindriya). The same reason applies to the objects - we have five objects of the external senses and one object of the internal sense-organ, so five external objects and one internal. The classification scheme as found in GEFS http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html does not apply here, because we would have 5 external and five internal objects, plus ideas (the object of mind) coming externally. Using this classification as governing the distribution of ayatanas will create havock rather than order. If we agree that the objects are only external, we will be facing the predicament of the invisible "hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained" - because all of them, being internal, cannot be included in the visual objects defined as only external. Kindest regards, Plamen #63802 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:08 am Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections matheesha333 Hi Swee Boon, I agree with you. I might add that one needs to see that 'in short the whole five aggregates are suffering'. If one doesnt see it there will be confusion. Sariputta clearly states how each successive jhana state is bliss compared to the next and how cessation of perception is the ultimate bliss, nibbana. There is a reason why such a thing as full nibbana/parinibbana exists, at the point of death of an arahath. Otherwise there would be no need for such an entity. There is still physical suffering and he has to suffer the five aggregates - often compared to taking care of five serpents by the Buddha. with metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > > a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > > here. Comments would be appreciated. > > Depending on how you view it. > > To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. > > To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha & suffering. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > #63803 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:17 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 535- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd When we realize the consequences of evil conduct we will be urged to develop right understanding which can eradicate defilements. We read in the Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Chapter XXII, § 3, Morals) about disadvantages of evil conduct: * "Monks, there are five disadvantages to one wanting morals, failing in morals. What five? Consider, monks, the man without morals, failing in morals— he comes to suffer much loss in wealth through neglect. This, monks, is the first disadvantage to one wanting morals, failing in morals. Or an evil rumour spreads about him. This is the second disadvantage… Or whatever group he approach, whether nobles or bråhmans, householders or recluses, he does so without confidence and confused. This is the third disadvantage… Or he dies muddled (in thought). This is the fourth disadvantage… Or on the breaking up of the body after death he arises in the wayward way, the ill way, the abyss, hell. This is the fifth disadvantage… Verily, monks, these are the five disadvantages to one wanting morals, failing in morals." (The opposite is said of one perfect in morals.) ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63804 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > Thanks for this. I just want to repost it so I don't forget it. It's > something I've always wondered about, how the wise attention of the > suttas could be the universal cetasika that accompanies all cittas. > It's more clear now thanks to this post, and I'll get back more to this > later, I think. .... S: Anytime -t's a good topic. Lots more under 'Manasikara' in U.P. too. Metta, Sarah ======= #63805 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) philofillet HI Han, Scott and all Ok, now I see the two extremes in question. Yes, I tend to think in terms of momentarily arising dhammas doing this and that - it gets to the heart of the Buddha's teaching, which is anatta. But of course when someone with the understanding of Han talks about "I" abstaining, there is still an appreciation of anatta. I think it's good to shift our thinking (paradigm shift?) in a way that goes against the grain of the way we have been conditioned to think, thus the emphasis on dhammas at work. But someone in one of the recorded talks asked an interesting question - isn't it a bit dishonest to say "understanding arises" or whatever "citta arises" as though by saying that there were some kind of freedom from self-view, when in fact it's really "I" at work. Maybe it's more honest to say "I" Yes, since it's a question of the way of communicating with others through the internet, certainly trying to adjust makes sense. I thought you guys were talking about trying to adjust the indriyas, which people might do a lot and is not a good idea in my opinion. I will *try* to read before I write...and will fail. :) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah and others, > > If you say that "whichever 'degree' or kind of virati > we are referring to, it is to momentary arising cittas > and cetasikas; there is nothing else but these > cetasikas performing their functions, and at such > moments, it is not self who abstains,?Ealthough it is > correct from point of view of paramattha dhamma, I see > it as one extreme. > > If I say I will observe the precepts, or I will > abstain from wrong action and wrong speech, or I will > do this or do that, it is another extreme, because in > reality, there is no "I?E > > Therefore, I will try to adjust myself between these > two extremes. > My only request is that when I write sometimes with my > "extreme?E to forgive me and bear with me, or just to > ignore me. > > Respectfully, > Han > > #63806 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& James), --- nidive wrote: > Hi James, > > > However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > > a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > > here. Comments would be appreciated. > > Depending on how you view it. > > To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. > > To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha & suffering. .... S: I thought this was neatly put, Swee Boon. James, I enjoyed your Groundhog post and reflections. Also the 'Art' ones and the following discussion. Nothing stupid about it:-). Metta, Sarah ======= #63807 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Han (Scott, Phil & all), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah and others, > > If you say that “whichever 'degree' or kind of virati > we are referring to, it is to momentary arising cittas > and cetasikas; there is nothing else but these > cetasikas performing their functions, and at such > moments, it is not self who abstains,” although it is > correct from point of view of paramattha dhamma, I see > it as one extreme. .... S: Don't you think that the truth of (paramattha) dhammas and the understanding of these at this moment as being anatta is the Middle Way rather than any extreme? For example, now when we reflect on dhamma or abstain from wrong speech or any harm to others, there is sila already. Doesn't it refer to these wholesome moments, conditioned by wise reflection and wise attention? .... > > If I say I will observe the precepts, or I will > abstain from wrong action and wrong speech, or I will > do this or do that, it is another extreme, because in > reality, there is no “I”. .... S: Don't you think it depends on the understanding when we speak like this rather than the actual words used? Only panna can know whether there really is an idea that *I* can do any such deeds or not. .... > > Therefore, I will try to adjust myself between these > two extremes. > My only request is that when I write sometimes with my > “extreme”, to forgive me and bear with me, or just to > ignore me. .... S: I don't think there's anything to 'forgive':-). Sometimes we just ask each other for clarification to help consider the dhammas further and to understand different viewpoints. I know it can be frustrating to have every word analysed, so I also apologise if I've given you any such frustration:-). Thank you also for your detailed post on sila. I've also drawn it to Nina's attention too. Like you, I think that sila is a very good topic to discuss and reflect on. I believe there is sila 'during vipassana meditation' or 'during jhanas'. The sila developed with satipatthana or vipassana is adhi-siila (higher sila). As I see it, when understanding is developed, it begins to understand everything better, including the momentary nature of sila. As you say, we can follow the precepts when the conditions are conducive to do so, but the sila is not unshakeable yet by any means. [When I first went to India and studied with Munindra in Bodh Gaya, he gave me the name of 'Sila' and always called me by such for the many months I was there and later in correspondence. It was a good reminder to reflect a lot on sila:-).] Metta, Sarah ======= #63808 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: >Dear Jon, > > >>When you say '5 external senses' you are >>referring to the rupas that are the 5 sense-bases, I believe. >>In what sense do you see these as being external? >> >> > >In this classification, we have no right to refer to the five senses >as rupas because they are listed in one group with manas, and the >group is referred collectively as indriya (sense-organs, cognitive >powers). > > I'm a little confused as to why you are bringing the indriyas into a discussion on the ayatanas (unless I have misunderstood). >It is the indriyas and their objects that make up the 12 >ayatanas. Out of them, 5 sense-organs are defined as external >(bahirindriya) and one, manas, as internal (antarindriya). The same >reason applies to the objects - we have five objects of the external >senses and one object of the internal sense-organ, so five external >objects and one internal. > > I don't think it's correct to say that it is the indriyas and their objects that make up the 12 ayatanas (unless you have a textual reference to that effect). It's true that both classifications talk about the same dhammas, but I don't think we can mix the 2 classifications. A dhamma that is 'internal' for the purpose of one classification may be 'external' for the purpose of another, and vice versa. The terms 'internal' and 'external' are for descriptive purposes only and are not inherent aspects of dhammas. >The classification scheme as found in GEFS >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html >does not apply here, because we would have 5 external and five >internal objects, plus ideas (the object of mind) coming externally. > > The classification in the Greater Elephant Footprint Simile Sutta is by way of dhatus. So for reasons given above I would agree that we cannot 'apply' the internal/external description here to the ayatanas or the indriyas. >Using this classification as governing the distribution of ayatanas >will create havock rather than order. > > And I would say the same about using the classification from the indriyas as governing the distribution of ayatanas: it creates havoc rather than order! ;-)) Jon >If we agree that the objects >are only external, we will be facing the predicament of the >invisible "hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone >marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large >intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or >whatever else internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & >sustained" - because all of them, being internal, cannot be included >in the visual objects defined as only external. > >Kindest regards, > >Plamen > > #63809 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. jonoabb Hi Han Thanks for the further detail on the Jataka and for the recollections from your younger days in Burma. How times have changed! han tun wrote: >Dear Jon, Sarah and Sof, > >Jataka story 526 Nilinikaa vatthu was told by the >Buddha with respect to a monk who wanted to leave >monk-hood due to the entreaty of his ex-wife to come >back to her. The Father Hermit in the story was our >Buddha (as Bodhisatta), the young hermit was the monk >who wanted to leave the monk-hood, and Princess >Nilinikaa was the ex-wife of the monk. > >Jon, it was not difficult for me to track it down, >because in Burma, before World War II, this story was >one of many stories that our Elders used to tell us >warning us against the deceitful nature of women and >their expertise in seducing men which was very >difficult to resist. (If it were today, our Elders >would have difficult time with women activists!) > > But the story is still a good illustration of how the real strength of a person's sila is not really known unless and until the person is exposed to temptation. That's why 'observance' is a really matter of actual restraint than of maintaining good conduct in an 'ideal' situation. Also an illustration of the importance of sila to the attainment of jhaana (something touched on recently in a thread of James and mine). Jon #63810 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul ken_aitch Hi Sarah (Scott and Connie), S: > What is a 'close-stool' or shouldn't I ask? By lucky coincidence, I heard the answer on a TV programme last Sunday night. The programme showed a Tudor toilet, which was a pot placed under a stool. The stool had a toilet-style seat and closed-in sides. In fact, I think the name is 'closed stool' rather than 'close stool. ' (This one was quite ornately decorated, as I recall.) S: > Derivation or is that worse? As you can see, the derivation is quite innocuous. I think the other, subsequent, derivation (which we needn't mention) is also quite interesting to know. :-) Ken H #63811 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > >Jon: Yes, there can be kusala citta that has a kasina as its object. >But the question is, if the citta with kasina as object is to be >kusala, by virtue of what will it be so? Merely having a kasina as >object, even with the intention of developing samatha, does not make >the citta kusala, and nowhere in the Vism does it say that that is >so. > >James: What is your point? Could you please just state your point? >... >We seem to get as far as: focusing on a kasina may or may not be >kusala…and then that's it. What's your final point? > > I think you've got the point already ;-)). Like you say, focussing on a kasina may or may not be kusala. So the obvious question is, under what circumstances will it be kusala? The answer to this is not so easy to see, as it is not really spelt out in the suttas as far as I know, nor in the other texts. First of all, we are talking here about samatha, right? Samatha means 'serenity' (to use the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation), and refers to a mental state that is accompanied by kusala mental factors including that of passadhi (which BB translates as 'tranquillity'). Some examples of kinds of samatha are: - metta, the wholesome concern or wish for another's welfare - recollection of the Dhamma, as when reflecting on parts of teachings that have been heard and understood In the case of metta the wholesome mental factor of adosa (non-hatred) is present. In the case of recollection of the Dhamma the mental factor of panna may be present. As we have agreed, focussing on (concentrating on) a kasina is something that can be done without the need for any particular kusala mental factor. All that is needed is an interest in the object or a motivation of some sort (such as the idea that doing it will bring certain results), and the 'practice' can 'develop'. But it will be akusala rather than kusala unless the person knows directly his/her kusala mental states from his/her akusala ones. Hoping this clarifies my point somewhat. Jon #63812 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 9/30/06 1:03:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Swee Boon, > > ------------------- > KH: >>Right understanding of a presently arisen reality is the > function of > >panna. Like all conditioned dhammas, panna arises when the > >conditions for its arising are in place. > >> > > SB: >In that case, panna will never arise. > ------------------ > > I don't know what you mean by that. What if the conditions for panna's > arising were in place? Wouldn't it arise then? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Why should the conditions get to be in place? As I recently mentioned, there is far more akusala than kusala. Why would you expect the requisite conditions getting to be in place as anything other than far less likely than their not getting to be in place. And how is merely hoping that the conditions magically do get to be in place anything more than wishful thinking and depending on "dumb luck"? To me, that is a kind of magical thinking that dismisses the reality of conditionality and is close to a reliance on the rite and ritual of repetitively reciting "when conditions are in place ... when conditions are in place." Ken, much that you do in your life, many of the conventional events (such as eating when hungry and drinking when thirsty) occur because "you" intentionally act to bring them about. You intentionally engage in specific activities to achieve specific purposes. (Underlying all that, the reality, is, I quite agree, namas and rupas. But so what?) Now, as regards your eating and drinking, can you simply skip those convemtional activities that are indeed accompanied by striving and sense of self, and let it suffice for you to merely say "When the conditions are in place, physical life force will increase"? ----------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------- > SB: >The assumption that there will > be conditions that will come into place for the arising of panna is > just that, an assumption. It is pure wishful thinking, something like > praying to God in vain. > ----------------------------- > > I think you are saying we need to do something. But if, instead of > sentient beings, there are really only fleeting, conditioned dhammas, > would there be any need to do something? > ------------------------------------ Howard: It is exactly the realities underlying the conventional actions of (merely seeming) sentient beings that are among the conditions most required to "be in place"! That, Ken, is exactly what you are missing. By your (IMO) misapplied dedication to the (quite correct) idea of impersonal conditions, you are ignoring, in fact dismissing, the most essential of all the conditions. ------------------------------------- What would we need to do -> > rescue the conditioned dhammas? Since they disappear forever almost as > soon as they have appeared - in what way could they be rescued? -------------------------------------- Howard: That would be a "closing the barn door after the horse has escaped" scenario. Nobody I know suggests that. What the Buddha urged was taking conventional actions the underlying realities of which will put into play (future) useful, kusala, sequences of events. You see, Ken, ignoring for the moment what is the *actual* nature is of conventional actions by persons, you can and do engage in them. You do so all the time. By refusing to engage in those particular ones urged by the Buddha, you are thereby preventing the arising of critical conditions for progress and are sabotaging Dhamma practice. -------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------ > KH: >>What did you think of my interpretation of "mind" (as a fleeting > >paramattha dhamma)? Can anything make that sort of mind less angry > >than it is? > >> > > SB: >In that case, the Buddha says of such a person as one who has no > development of the mind. > ------------------------------------ > > Let me put the question another way: Can anything change, or control, > the presently arisen paramattha dhammas? --------------------------------------- Howard: No! That is a non-issue. ------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ================== With metta, Howard #63813 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:44 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > ----------------------------- > SB: > The assumption that there will be conditions that will come > into place for the arising of panna is just that, an assumption. > It is pure wishful thinking, something like praying to God in vain. > ----------------------------- > > I think you are saying we need to do something. I am saying that the assumption that there will be conditions that will come auto-magically into place for the arising of panna is pure wishful thinking. Why do you think this is not pure wishful thinking? Is there any sound basis you can make for your assumption? If there is, please explain *how* it all works? If you can't, you are just making merry-go-rounds with all your counter questions. Regards, Swee Boon #63814 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas pgradinarov Dear Jon, > I'm a little confused as to why you are bringing the indriyas into a > discussion on the ayatanas (unless I have misunderstood). Because the ayatanas are the 12 sense-bases. What is caksu? - The visual sense-organ (bahya indriya). What is srotra? - The audial sense organ (bahya indriya). What is ghrana? - The olfactory sense-organ (bahya indriya). What is jihva? - The gustatory sense-organ (bahya indriya). What is tvak (kaya)? - The tactile sense-organ (bahya indriya). What is manas? - The internal sense-organ (antah indriya). What is rupa? - The object of the visual sense organ. What is sabda? - The object of the audial sense-organ. What is gandha? - The object of the olfactory sense-organ. What is rasa? - The object of the gustatory sense-organ. What is sparsa? - The object of the tactile sense-organ. What is dharma? - The object of the internal sense-organ. The 12 ayatanas represent the sense-organs and their corresponding objects. * * * Kindest regards, Plamen #63815 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > As you may know, my sutta study has been devoted over a year to SN >35, the ayatanas, so naturally enough it seems to me that the Buddha >did in fact teach in order to gently begin to take the pleasure out of >enjoying art and other sensual pleasures that arise through the six >doors. > > Yes, the Buddha warned of the dangers of sensual pleasures, and the need for them to be given up in the long run, but not of course as something that 'had to be done' in the first instance. I think the general flavour of the teachings is that the attachment to sense pleasures is gradually lessened as the path is developed to its higher levels (but not necessarily so to any marked degree before then) > ... We are no >longer wandering through the musuem with our sense doors wide open, >drinking it all in. Those days are gone, and that's ok. (Well, there >are many days when we *are* drinking it all in mindlessly but the days >of celebrating that as something wholesome are gone.) > > But not gone for good, not truly gone, because the tendency remains. Perhaps there are still moments of such celebrating that we are not aware of ;-)) >There is guarding >of the sense doors more and more often, which usually doesn't mean >averting the eyes from attractive visible object, for example, before >we look at it, but in most suttas refers to wise attention arising to >sober-up our attention to the seeing and consequent proliferation that >has already arisen. > > There is wise attention with awareness, so if there is awareness of the lobha (or dosa) then even if it continues there's wise attention and 'guarding of the sense-doors'. > Fascinating stuff. (Lobha and chanda mingling again.) This morning I >saw an extraordinary bird - brilliant aquamarine blue plumage - never >seen such a bird before. Was there appreciation at the beauty of it >like there would have been before? Of course, but also, reflection on >the vipaka and javanas involved. That's ok. I'm certainly not a joyless >fellow, and when I'm out on a bike ride with Naomi there is a lot of >drinking it in and sharing appreciation of beautiful things, but the >Buddha's reminders re the dangers of unattentive consumption of sense >door objects are often there as well, arising when conditions permit >them to. > > Thanks for sharing and for the good reminders. Jon #63816 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas ( scottduncan2 Dear Phil, This is interesting: P: "...But someone in one of the recorded talks asked an interesting question - isn't it a bit dishonest to say 'understanding arises' or whatever 'citta arises' as though by saying that there were some kind of freedom from self-view, when in fact it's really 'I' at work. Maybe it's more honest to say 'I'" Its a good point. It is true, I guess 'technically,' that things arise. I think I sort of even think things like that to myself and its like reminding myself or something but it is an intellectual exercise for sure. I don't think its quite 'dishonest' since I'm not trying to fool myself - or so I think. I mean I know its like reviewing the Dhamma in my mind and paying attention to this or that dhamma. I know the other night I noticed that this mood had 'arisen.' I missed the start of it but kind of noticed it in mid-mood, as it were. It was a crabby sort of distracted and restless state. It was also around bed-time for the kids, which involves some time with each for chats and cuddles. The mood was not actually all that conducive to such a thing I could tell. The sequence was quite quick but along with noticing the bad mood, thinking of the bed-time ritual, knowing the mood could make it unpleasant, I did think that moods like this come and go or arise and fall-away or something and this did serve to seemingly condition an attenuation of the mood and allow me to initially 'fake' some bonhommie with the kids which settled into a 'real' ability to be pleasant (or however else one is to describe whatever that was that arose). So anyway, it is intellectual I guess but needn't be dishonest. What was the answer given in the recording? P: "I will *try* to read before I write...and will fail. :)" Yeah, me too. I'm often trying to do two or three things at once and wind up responding only to what I think I read on the fly. The kids, even when I've spent like two minutes at the computer desk, like to tell me I'm addicted to the computer. I'm supposed to be more addicted to getting them a bowl of ice cream or a milkshake for dessert at such moments. With loving kindness, Scott. #63817 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: >>To my understanding, the first 5 internal ayatanas are the >>(physical) sense bases that are included in the 'form' of >>'name and form', while the sixth is all kinds of consciousness. >>Is this how you see it? >> >> > >Not quite agree. > >The Buddha said depending on the corresponding external medium and the >corresponding internal medium, there arises the corresponding >consciousness. As such, the internal intellect medium cannot be >referring to "all kinds of consciousness". It doesn't make sense. > > I'd like to follow this through further with you. Perhaps we should look at a specific text. Do you have one in mind? >>To my understanding the expression 'name and form' as used in DO >>refers to certain cetasikas and certain rupas only, as explained >>in my earlier post. >> >> > >Not quite true. > >Name refers to feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention. >Form refers to the four great elements, and the form dependent on the >four great elements. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html > > Thanks for the sutta reference. As regards the 'nama' part of 'nama-rupa', a footnote to the BB translation explains: "Vism 558, 23-28 explains that naama denotes the three aggregates -- of feeling, perception, and volitional formations -- which are called thus because of their "bending" (namana) on to an object (in the act of cognizing it). Volition, contact and attention belong to the aggregate of volitional formations and, according to Spk, have been selected to represent that aggregate here because they are operative even in the weakest classes of consciousness." As regards the 'rupa' part, Vism has more at the reference just given (see Ch XVII, 186 - 202 of the Nanamoli translation), which I need to study in more detail before I can summarise. However, it's obvious I think that rupa cannot refer to *all* instances of the four great elements etc because that would include inanimate objects such as rocks, etc, so it's a matter of how far the sutta reference is to be read down. Jon #63818 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Howard), --- nidive wrote: > >H: Even the paramatthic concepts are illusory, because the paramatthic > > concepts, the supposed paramattha dhammas *thought* of are *not* > > paramattha dhammas actually experienced. These concepts are not > > actual elements of direct experience. > >SB: I don't quite agree here. In the Chachakka Sutta, the Buddha did say > that the external idea-medium does in fact arise and fall away. If the > external idea-medium is not concepts/ideas, then what is it, I am > wondering? .... S: I think the Buddha is referring to the external ayatanas here. These are not concepts or ideas but dhamma ayatana, i.e subtle rupas and cetasikas (In the synopsis at the beginning, it says "the six internal ayatanas (bases) should be understood. The six external ayatanas (bases) should be understood and so on.) .... > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > > "If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be > tenable. The arising & falling away of the intellect are discerned. > And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow > that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable > if anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self.' So the intellect > is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that > wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self and ideas are > not-self. .... S: BB uses 'the mind is the self' and 'mind objects', but I think this is also somewhat misleading as mind objects could also refer to ideas. The Buddha is referring to paramattha dhammas - dhammas that arise and fall away, are dukkha and anatta. <...> >SB: About physical form that is not cognized being not real and not > existing, yes, that is very strange. What do you think of the > Malunkyaputta Sutta? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.than.html > > "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye > that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you > don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire > or passion or love there?" > > "No, lord."1 > > "The sounds cognizable via the ear... > > "The aromas cognizable via the nose... > > "The flavors cognizable via the tongue... > > "The tactile sensations cognizable via the body... > > "The ideas cognizable via the intellect that are uncognized by you — > that you have never before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that > are not to be cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or > love there?" > > "No, lord." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If form that is unseen by you is not real and don't exist, how can it > still possibly be spoken of as "cognizable via the eye" by the Buddha, > I am wondering? .... S: Good quote! And this brings out the distinction between khandha (still dukkha) and upadana khandha (as in panca upadana khandha dukkha). .... <...> >SB: > I agree that we do cling to ideas a lot. But I think ideas do in fact > exist as something real "inside the mind". And it is possible to > discern the arising and falling away of ideas. .... S: They certainly seem real to us in our ignorance - the car, the tree, the computer, the dream world. Actually, it's just the thinking that arises and falls away. Thanks for the good sutta quotes as usual. Metta, Sarah ======= #63819 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi again Phil In my earlier reply I overlooked your PS. Phil wrote: > p.s BTW, I like the examle in Acharn Sujin's chapter on concepts in >the SPD. A painting of grapes is no more real than the bunch of grapes >on the table. This certainly goes against conventional thinking, >against the ways of the world. > > Good observation. Just wondering though whether 'no more real' is the right expression here, since conventionally the painting would be considered *less* real than the grapes, right? How about 'no more unreal', or something to the effect that 'both are equally not-real' (the more you think about it the harder it becomes to get it just right!)? Jon #63820 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta the householder (was, Kasina meditation is evil?) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Jon: There were lay teachers (of monks) in the time of the Buddha >(for example, Citta the >householder, who has a section of his own in SN). > >James: As far as I know, Citta the householder did not teach monks, >he learned the dhamma from monks. The Buddha declared him to be a >great expounder of the dhamma, but not a teacher of the dhamma. In >other words, he had memorized a lot of dhamma by asking monks a lot >of questions, and he could answer monk's questions when they tested >his knowledge of the dhamma- but that doesn't mean he taught the >dhamma to monks. (I don't have my copy of SN anymore so I am not >entirely sure of this. Please give me a sutta reference where he >teaches monks the dhamma.) > > According to BB's introductory notes to the Cittasamyutta section of SN (Salayatanavagga): << << << Citta was named by the Buddha the foremost male lay disciple among the speakers on the Dhamma. ... Several times we see him teaching the Dhamma to bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus applaud him as one who has "the eye of wisdom that ranges over the deep Word of the Buddha". >> >> >> BB cites the suttas at SN 41:1, 5, 7 in this regard. Here is a link to the ATI version of the last of these: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.007.than.html Jon #63821 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Presently Experienced Rupa jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: >Dear Howard and Jon, > >Presently experienced rupa is given to us either as sanna or as >vinnana. > > To my understanding, rupas are experienced by vinnana and its accompanying mental factors, of which sanna is one. >There is no other way to experience whatever rupa exists out >there. All that does not fit our limited anthropological constitution >with 5+1 senses, is _voraussetzungsweise_ doomed to non-existence. > > I think there cannot be 'rupas that do not fit our limited senses'. Because namas and rupas are a way of classifying dhammas, not a way of describing what is or may be 'out there'. >If, >on the basis of this kind of reasoning, we conclude that whatever >exists does so because it is experienced, then we are no doubt >followers of Bishop Berkeley, i.e., subjective idealists - like it or >not. And there will be no need to postulate the existence of rupa- >khandha. Perceptions and cognitions would be more than enough to >account for the (always hypothetical) existence of the external world. > > I am with you in questioning any line of reasoning that seeks to link the arising or existence of experienced rupas to the fact of their being the object of consciousness. The teaching on conditions is the key to understanding this area further. As to rupa khandha, I see the khandhas as one of the many ways in which dhammas were classified by the Buddha for our elucidation. There is no dhamma called a 'khandha'. Jon #63822 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:23 am Subject: A life outside the texts? (was, Kasina meditation is evil?) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >I would be impressed and >would take you very seriously if you stated that you had achieved >jhana (and I had reason to believe you). In that case, you would >know more about the subject than myself. And, no, I would not need >to evaluate your comments against the texts! That would be really >stupid! Good lord, Jon, there is a real life out there!!! Not >everything is in the texts. > > Well I must say this doesn't sound like the James I know ;-)) I'm sure you do evaluate people's comments against your own understanding of the teachings. And it is something the Buddha urged his followers to do (see the Parinibbana Sutta). Jon #63823 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& James), --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > There is not just the conventional rebirth from lifetime to > lifetime, > but also the perpetual rebirth of sense of self and of grasping. There > is the > ongoing rebirth of the sense of me and mine. From a non-annihilationist > perspective, I think that purifying the mind here and now and "stopping > the cycle" > may come down to pretty much the same thing. Let's say that "living in" > samsara > consists of a rat race on a wheel, and the realization of nibbana is the > > stepping off that wheel to the freedom that already is a reality. If we > think that > being on the wheel is "existence" and being off is "non-existence", that > is > both a substantialist and nihilist perspective, an embracing of two > extremes. > If, on the other hand, we think of being on the wheel as simply > unnecessary > obsessive and compulsive and ignorant lunacy, and the stepping off as > the > relinquishment of a self-imposed torture, it is another matter entirely. > ----------------------------------------- .... S: Nicely put, especially the last colourful sentence:-). ... > > Samvega was what the young Prince Siddhartha felt on his first > > exposure to aging, illness, and death. <...> > Howard: > Interesting, isn't it? On the face of it, such an experience > seems to > be a "downer" and just the sort of "unpleasant" thing folks wish to > avoid. But > the facts are that it is a critically important event, and wonderfully > deservant of celebration at its occurrence. > -------------------------------------- ... S: I think the important thing to remember is that samvegga is referring to an understanding, a sense of urgency with wisdom, not to any unpleasant thoughts or feelings. Thanks for the film reviews and comments! (I'm glad you had a nice get-together with N & L too!). Metta, Sarah ====== #63824 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:39 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Internal and External Dependent Origination Reiterated dacostacharles Dear Plamen, There are many interpretations of DO. It is very good you found one that can help guide you! Charles DaCosta _____ #63825 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:37 pm Subject: Re: some points on art philofillet Hi Jon Thanks for pointing out the below. It was careless typing on my part - meant to write "the bunch of grapes is no more real than the painting." - one of those fortuitous typos, though, since it kind of shifted perspective. BTW, I posted a reply in the thread on ditthi but it disappeared into cyberspace. I'll try again in a few days. Also, thanks for the other comments in this thread. That's something that really interests me a lot - back to you on it when possible. Phil > > p.s BTW, I like the examle in Acharn Sujin's chapter on concepts in > >the SPD. A painting of grapes is no more real than the bunch of grapes > >on the table. This certainly goes against conventional thinking, > >against the ways of the world. > > > > > > Good observation. Just wondering though whether 'no more real' is the > right expression here, since conventionally the painting would be > considered *less* real than the grapes, right? How about 'no more > unreal', or something to the effect that 'both are equally not- real' > (the more you think about it the harder it becomes to get it just right!)? #63826 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:05 pm Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections nidive Hi Howard, > Some folks, though, seem to crave the complete termination of > experience. What is there to crave in that? If nibbana is desired > because it is thought of, not as an end to the three poisons, but > as the end of everything, how does that differ from the escapist > wish of any prospective suicide? Despite the form of the word, a > suicidal person isn't after the cessation of some thing > called his/her "self", but is after the cessation of experience. > The realization of no self in the person and no self in dhammas is > the goal of the Dhamma, not an aversive fleeing from experience and > running towards absolute nothingness. A goal of nothingness is > EXACTLY a nihilist goal. The enemies of the Dhamma accuse it of > being a nihilism. But nibbana is NOT a nothingness, and the > suggestion that it is encourages the view of Buddhism as a > species of nihilism, as I see it. I actually posted a reply yesterday but it didn't appear, so I am posting it again. This is how I understand that Buddhism is not nihilism. For a person who is neither resolved on nor obsessed with his "Self" and his conceit "I", the desire to exist and the desire to not exist are not discernible in him. Where the desire to exist and the desire to not exist are not discernible in him, the corresponding viewpoint positions of eternalism and nihilism are also not discernible in him. Now, what remains for such a person? Just dukkha and the ending of dukkha. Just dependent co-arising and the ending of dependent co- arising. Just dependent existence and the ending of dependent existence. There is no involvement of craving to terminate experience, neither is it an escapist wish for the cessation of experience, and neither is it said to be a goal of nothingness. It is the understanding of dukkha and how it all ends. It is the truth itself being understood. This is the true liberating Dhamma that I have experienced for myself, and I speak for myself only. Regards, Swee Boon (rushing off for compulsory military physical training) #63827 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------------- <. . .> H: > Some folks, though, seem to crave the complete termination of experience. What is there to crave in that? ------------- Craving for parinibbana is the same as craving for nibbana in that the object craved for is not parinibbana or nibbana at all - it is only a concept. ---------------------------------- H: > If nibbana is desired because it is thought of, not as an end to the three poisons, ---------------------------------- Even desire for the end of the three poisons is akusala - as are all forms of desire. Desire (lobha cetasika) is incapable of experiencing either nibbana or the eightfold path. ------------------------------------------ H: > but as the end of everything, how does that differ from the escapist wish of any prospective suicide? ------------------------------------------ Parinibbana (the final cessation of the khandhas) is the ultimate goal of all ariyans. Suicide is not parinibbana because it is carried out with wrong view (specifically, with annihilation view). As you can imagine, I see suicide as an extreme form of formal practice. :-) ---------------------------------------------------- H: > Despite the form of the word, a suicidal person isn't after the cessation of some thing called his/her "self", but is after the cessation of experience. ----------------------------------------------------- He believes in a self that experiences. Therefore he believes that by killing the self he will end experience. ------------------ H: > The realization of no self in the person and no self in dhammas is the goal of the Dhamma, ------------------ It is *a* goal of the Dhamma. But even the Stream Enterer - who has already reached that goal - has a sense of urgency (for putting an end to rebirth). ------------------------------- H: > not an aversive fleeing from experience and running towards absolute nothingness. -------------------------------- Aversion for conditioned existence (not in the sense of fleeing but in the nobler sense of detachment and renunciation) leads to realisation of the unconditioned, nibbana. -------------------------------------------- H: > A goal of nothingness is EXACTLY a nihilist goal. --------------------------------------------- Yes, and it is sought after by nihilists and other annihilationists. On the other hand, the goal of 'final cessation of the khandhas' is sought after by ariyans. ----------------- H:> The enemies of the Dhamma accuse it of being a nihilism. But nibbana is NOT a nothingness, and the suggestion that it is encourages the view of Buddhism as a species of nihilism, as I see it. ------------------ Nothingness is an experience. As uninstructed worldlings, you and I (and others, such as Ven Thanissaro) can't always differentiate between parinibbana and nothingness. Therefore, we sometimes imagine the final goal must be some kind of boundless experience. But that is not what the Buddha taught. Ken H #63828 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - > Thanks for the film reviews and comments! (I'm glad you had a nice > get-together with N &L too!). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Sarah. BTW, I have been SO much enjoying recent posts of yours! :-) ---------------------------------------- With metta, Howard #63829 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/30/06 8:15:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > I actually posted a reply yesterday but it didn't appear, so I am > posting it again. > > This is how I understand that Buddhism is not nihilism. > > For a person who is neither resolved on nor obsessed with his "Self" > and his conceit "I", the desire to exist and the desire to not exist > are not discernible in him. > > Where the desire to exist and the desire to not exist are not > discernible in him, the corresponding viewpoint positions of > eternalism and nihilism are also not discernible in him. > > Now, what remains for such a person? Just dukkha and the ending of > dukkha. Just dependent co-arising and the ending of dependent co- > arising. Just dependent existence and the ending of dependent > existence. > > There is no involvement of craving to terminate experience, neither is > it an escapist wish for the cessation of experience, and neither is it > said to be a goal of nothingness. > > It is the understanding of dukkha and how it all ends. It is the truth > itself being understood. > > This is the true liberating Dhamma that I have experienced for myself, > and I speak for myself only. ------------------------------------- Howard: Nicely expressed, Swee Boon. :-) ------------------------------------ > > Regards, > Swee Boon (rushing off for compulsory military physical training) > ========================== Oh, man! Deep dukkha! ;-)) With metta, Howard #63830 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - Only one or two comments offered by me below: In a message dated 9/30/06 8:32:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ------------- > <. . .> > H: >Some folks, though, seem to crave the complete termination of > experience. What is there to crave in that? > ------------- > > Craving for parinibbana is the same as craving for nibbana in that the > object craved for is not parinibbana or nibbana at all - it is only a > concept. > > ---------------------------------- > H: >If nibbana is desired because it is > thought of, not as an end to the three poisons, > ---------------------------------- > > Even desire for the end of the three poisons is akusala - as are all > forms of desire. Desire (lobha cetasika) is incapable of experiencing > either nibbana or the eightfold path. --------------------------------------- Howard: Uh huh. And if one is has no desire to free him/herself from dukkha, then one is utterly lost. ------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------ > H: >but as the end of everything, how > does that differ from the escapist wish of any prospective suicide? > ------------------------------------------ > > Parinibbana (the final cessation of the khandhas) is the ultimate goal > of all ariyans. Suicide is not parinibbana because it is carried out > with wrong view (specifically, with annihilation view). As you can > imagine, I see suicide as an extreme form of formal practice. :-) > > ---------------------------------------------------- > H: >Despite the > form of the word, a suicidal person isn't after the cessation of some > thing called his/her "self", but is after the cessation of experience. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > He believes in a self that experiences. Therefore he believes that by > killing the self he will end experience. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The goal is the cessation of experience, with suicide the intended (and erroneous) means to that end chosen. ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------ > H: >The realization of no self in the person and no self in dhammas > is the goal of the Dhamma, > ------------------ > > It is *a* goal of the Dhamma. But even the Stream Enterer - who has > already reached that goal - has a sense of urgency (for putting an > end to rebirth). --------------------------------------- Howard: The stream enterer has NOT realized that goal. Only the arahant has. The stream enterer has merely disabused himself of belief in self. ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > H: >not an aversive fleeing from experience and running > towards absolute nothingness. > -------------------------------- > > Aversion for conditioned existence (not in the sense of fleeing but in > the nobler sense of detachment and renunciation) leads to realisation > of the unconditioned, nibbana. ------------------------------------ Howard: Disenchantment with and distaste for conditions, not finding them a source of satisfaction, and finding them unworthy of pursuit is not the same as aversively fleeing from them and craving nothingness. ------------------------------------ > > -------------------------------------------- > H: >A goal of nothingness is EXACTLY a nihilist goal. > --------------------------------------------- > > Yes, and it is sought after by nihilists and other annihilationists. > On the other hand, the goal of 'final cessation of the khandhas' is > sought after by ariyans. > > ----------------- > H:> The > enemies of the Dhamma accuse it of being a nihilism. But nibbana is > NOT a nothingness, and the suggestion that it is encourages the view > of Buddhism as a species of nihilism, as I see it. > ------------------ > > Nothingness is an experience. As uninstructed worldlings, you and I > (and others, such as Ven Thanissaro) can't always differentiate > between parinibbana and nothingness. Therefore, we sometimes imagine > the final goal must be some kind of boundless experience. But that is > not what the Buddha taught. -------------------------------------- Howard: A no-thing-ness that is an experience is not nothingness. Far better to speak of emptiness. -------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ====================== With metta, Howard #63831 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:11 am Subject: Re: some points on art philofillet Hi James (and Matheesha at the end) I meant to get back to this. > ...in my case this > > has been the case with alcohol. I still enjoy it on occasion, but > > just finding less and less pleasure in it naturally and more and > > more sensitivity to the way even a little bit clouds clarity of > mind > > the next day. > > This is good. In this case wisdom is lessening the desire for > alcohol, not a boredom with the alcohol. That's a good point. Three isn't any less enjoyment of the alcohol, not necessarily, but wisdom pointing out that mental clarity is preferable. > > If I cut it off cold turkey I would be less free from > > it rather than more free, I think. > > Again, I completely disagree. Alcoholics must stop consuming > alcohol cold turkey if they ever hope to be free of it. Alcohol is > an addictive drug, it isn't your average sensual pleasure. There is > a zen saying (did you know zen monks occassionally drink alcohol?), > the man may drink his drink but he musn't let his drink drink him. This is completely off topic, but reminded me of a line I found in a notebook. "Rather than trying to control the mind, it is better not to let the mind control us." > > That's another topic, and it > > doesn't apply to all of life's pleasures. Anything that is akusala > > kamma patha cannot be approached in this way. > > I'm not sure what you mean here, I meant that drinking alchol is not one of the 10 unwholesome deeds that constitute akusala kamma so I personally don't feel as horrified to have a drink know and then. But when I perform akusala kamma, killing a mosquito, for example, I don't think it's something to do without concern. I mean, while I might believe, as I do, that occasionally (very occasionally, and never before 9 a.m) exposing myself to alcohol is the best way to rid myself of it completely, I wouldn't believe occasionally exposing myself to sleeping with other men's wives (or other women's husbands, if conditions led to that) would be a wise way to lose interest in it, because that is playing with akusala kamma, playing with fire a la flames of hell etc. > but I do agree that alcohol is a > tricky topic. One interesting insight I had that I wanted to pass on to Matheesha who was asking about alcohol was related to the tortoise simile sutta in SN 35. Near the back, in the 200s. The tortoise/turtle goes out, extends its neck and limbs, which symbolize the six internal ayatanas reaching out for the external objects. The jackal is there, so the wise tortoise withdraws its limbs and head. I think alchol, the first drink, actually makes us *more* sensitive and prone to withdrawing with wisdom, because we are aware of doing something that is against the precepts so walk carefully - in my case anyways. The danger *always* is the second drink, because then the tortoise is much more slack about pulling in the limbs, much more out of control of the proceess. I thought that sutta was helpful in considering just how alcohol poses a danger in removing from us wise attention and other wholesome factors that prevent proliferation that can lead to evil deeds, though of course alcohol isn't mentioned in it. Alcohol, the second drink, wildly accelerates the proliferation process described in the Honeyball sutta, certainly. Only a fool has the second, that much is for sure, and maybe that goes for the first drink as well. Phil #63832 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind response. Sarah: Don't you think that the truth of (paramattha) dhammas and the understanding of these at this moment as being anatta is the Middle Way rather than any extreme? For example, now when we reflect on dhamma or abstain from wrong speech or any harm to others, there is sila already. Doesn't it refer to these wholesome moments, conditioned by wise reflection and wise attention? ------------------------------ Han; No, I do not think that the truth of (paramattha) dhammas and the understanding of these at this moment as being anatta is extreme. What I think extreme was when you said, “it is to momentary arising cittas and cetasikas; there is nothing else but these cetasikas performing their functions, and at such moments, it is not self who abstains.” “it is not self who abstains” is correct from paramattha point of view, but to take that attitude seriously all the time is extreme. Please read your next sentence. You wrote: “for example, now when we reflect-----”. There was already the “we” (:>) =============== Sarah: I know it can be frustrating to have every word analysed, so I also apologise if I've given you any such frustration: -). ------------------------------ Han: No, Sarah, I am not frustrated at all. Please do not apologize. You know me by now. I am happy-go-lucky fellow. I am writing these just for the sake of dhamma discussions. In my heart of hearts, please say whatever you like to me. I will always respect you, Jon, Nina and Lodewijk, and other DSG members like Howard, Phil, Scott, James and many others who are all excellent in their presentations. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: Don't you think that the truth of (paramattha) > dhammas and the > understanding of these at this moment as being > anatta is the Middle Way > rather than any extreme? > #63834 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 535- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina and all, I read in the text, AN V.213 Siila Sutta, which describes the five disadvantages to one who is wanting in morals, and five advantages to one who is perfect in morals. In this respect, I would like to quote Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi from his ‘Nourishing the Roots’ some aspects of siila. Quote: [A precept is, therefore, from the Buddhist perspective much more than a prohibition imposed upon conduct from without. Each precept is a tangible expression of a corresponding attitude of mind, a principle which clothes in the form of concrete action a beam of the light of inward purity. The precepts render visible the invisible state of purification. They make it accessible to us by refracting it through the media of body and speech into specific rules of conduct we can apply as guides to action when we find ourselves in the diverse situations they are designed to cover. By bringing our conduct into harmony with the precepts, we can nourish the root of our spiritual endeavors, our virtue. And when virtue is made secure, the succeeding stages of the path unfold spontaneously through the law of the spiritual life, culminating at the crest in the perfection of knowledge and the serene azure of deliverance.] End Quote. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi then quoted AN X.2 Cetanaa-karaniiya Sutta, the edited excerpts from which are printed below to show how siila is the first step towards the realization of the knowledge and vision of deliverance, and for crossing over from the hither shore to the beyond. (1) For one who is endowed with virtue, freedom from remorse arises. (siilavato siila-sampannassa avippatisaaro uppajjati) (2) For one who is free from remorse, gladness arises. (avippatisaarissa paamojjam jaayati) (3) For one who is gladdened, rapture arises. (pamuditassa piiti uppajjati) (4) For one filled with rapture, the body becomes tranquil. (piiti-manassa kaayo passambhati) (5) For one tranquil in body, experiences bliss. (passaddha kaayo sukham vediyati) (6) For one who is blissful, the mind becomes concentrated. (sukhino cittam samaadhiyati) (7) For one who is concentrated, knows and sees things as they really are. (samaahito yathaabhuutam jaanaati passati) (8) For one knowing and seeing things as they really are, becomes disenchanted and dispassionate. (yathaabhuutam jaanam passam nibbindati virajjati) (9) For one who has become disenchanted and dispassionate, realizes the knowledge and vision of deliverance... (nibbindo viratto vimutti-naanadassanam sacchikaroti) Thus, bhikkhus, one stage flows into the succeeding stage, one stage comes to fulfillment in the succeeding stage, for crossing over from the hither shore to the beyond. Respectfully, Han Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (18) #63836 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & all, --- ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Sarah (Scott and Connie), > > S: > What is a 'close-stool' or shouldn't I ask? > > By lucky coincidence, I heard the answer on a TV programme last Sunday > night. The programme showed a Tudor toilet, which was a pot placed under > a stool. The stool had a toilet-style seat and closed-in sides. In > fact, I think the name is 'closed stool' rather than 'close stool. ' .... S: thank you - yes 'closed' makes more sense:-). .... > > (This one was quite ornately decorated, as I recall.) .... S: Rather difficult to imagine it having been around at the Buddha's time, but I'll leave that with Connie & Scott. Will get back to our other threads later. Hope you and Sue are fully recovered now and also Andrew T. Funny thing, I met a yoga teacher the other day who'd also just come from Noosa, visiting students and he also found large numbers sick with stomach flu in particular. Must be all that clean water and air..... Metta, Sarah ======= #63838 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:20 am Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections nidive Hi Matheesha, > I agree with you. I might add that one needs to see that 'in short > the whole five aggregates are suffering'. If one doesnt see it there > will be confusion. > > Sariputta clearly states how each successive jhana state is bliss > compared to the next and how cessation of perception is the ultimate > bliss, nibbana. > > There is a reason why such a thing as full nibbana/parinibbana > exists, at the point of death of an arahath. Otherwise there would > be no need for such an entity. There is still physical suffering and > he has to suffer the five aggregates - often compared to taking care > of five serpents by the Buddha. Excellent! This is indeed how one should understand the liberating true Dhamma as taught by the Unconquered Conqueror. Regards, Swee Boon #63839 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:28 am Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections nidive Hi Sarah, > > To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > > ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. > > > > To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", > > the ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha & suffering. > .... > S: I thought this was neatly put, Swee Boon. Thanks for your appreciation! Regards, Swee Boon #63840 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:03 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) scottduncan2 Dear Han, Thank you kindly for including me in the following: H: "In my heart of hearts, please say whatever you like to me. I will always respect you, Jon, Nina and Lodewijk, and other DSG members like Howard, Phil, Scott, James and many others who are all excellent in their presentations." I read your posts with care and think well of the learning and sense you give us. Thanks. With loving kindness, Scott. #63841 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Howard) --- nidive wrote: > Is it not possible to cling on to concepts? ... S: Yes as you and Howard discussed. (I liked Howard's detailed reply to this post, #63719). ... > If the answer is yes and satipatthana can't take on a concept, how > then is the release of clinging on to concepts to be discerned? .... S: By directly understanding and being aware of the clinging when it appears. Clinging is clinging regardless of the object of clinging. It doesn't matter whether it's clinging to a cat, a computer, a pink elephant or having more awareness. Clinging can cling to anything except nibbana and the lokuttara cittas. .... > > Don't ideas "arise" dependent on namas, and with the ceasing of those > namas, ideas also "cease" to be? .... S: See Howard's post. Ideas - say that of a computer or a pink elephant never exist. The thinking of such arises and falls and has a concept as object. It's true that when there's no thinking of a pink elephant, there's no idea of such, but there never was a pink elephant. What we think of as changing ideas are really changing moments of thinking or imagination. Hope this helps a little. I think the use of 'ideas' for dhamma ayatana in translation is misleading as I've said. Metta, Sarah ====== #63842 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sarahprocter... Dear Han (Sof, Jon, Scott, Connie & all), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Jon, Sarah and Sof, > > Jataka story 526 Nilinikaa vatthu was told by the > Buddha with respect to a monk who wanted to leave > monk-hood due to the entreaty of his ex-wife to come > back to her. <...> > Jon, it was not difficult for me to track it down, > because in Burma, before World War II, this story was > one of many stories that our Elders used to tell us > warning us against the deceitful nature of women and > their expertise in seducing men which was very > difficult to resist. (If it were today, our Elders > would have difficult time with women activists!) .... S: True! We had some interesting discussions on this topic of 'the deceitful nature of women' before, including the Kunala Jataka, 536 and a section from Qs of King Milinda: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3515.htm [WOMEN'S WHILES.] 42. 'Venerable Nâgasena, it has been said by the Blessed One: With opportunity, and secrecy, And the right woo'r, all women will go wrong-- Aye, failing others, with a cripple even 1." You may like to look at a post I wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/36411 (Also, a couple more: 36635, 36965 - all under 'Women') There was some discussion about whether the Jatakas and K.Milinda Qus could be accepted and so in this post above, so I also quoted from suttas (in the above post) such as AN, Book of Ones, ch1, 1-10: “Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other sound, . . . re. . . any other smell,. . . re. . . any other taste,. . . re. . . any other touch so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the touch of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the touch of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective. <...> Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective.” <...> "The woman talks to one with sword in hand and even to a sprite, Gets mixed up even with snake poison, which if stings would die. A woman does not speak with only one, Gets hold of the confused with a glance and smile, Or showing the body or with charming words Even the very pure are struck and fall The five strands of sense pleasures are seen in the woman, As forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touches....” <...> ***** S: I also mentioned that "the Vinaya texts are full of tales of the foolishness and vulnerability of men to the charms of women. Hence the laying down of so many rules on this account which many people see today as being sexist, referring to the ‘second-class’ rules of bhikkhunis and so on." I also wrote: "Back to the sutta quoted which can be read in full here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancak\ \ anipata/006-nivaranavaggo-e.htm 5. Màtàputtasuttaü- The mother and son. This is how it started: “006.05. At one time The Blessed One abode in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi. At that time both mother and son a bhikkhu and bhikkhuni had observed the rains in Savatthi. They constantly desired each others sight. The mother desired to see the son and the son desired to see the mother. The two seeing each other constantly, a relationship began and with the relationship confidence got established and they approached each other Fallen in love for each other without giving up robes, they secretly had sexual intercourse.” .... S: Of course as it stresses, it takes two sets of very perverted attachment in this case and by implication, as in the Jataka tale and other tales about fools, neither men or women are spared from the Buddha’s penetrating insights into the basest of intentions. Naturally, if he is addressed bhikkhus (or male birds), the emphasis is going to be on the dangers of association with women. To both men and women he also stressed the perversions and the way we take the ugly form of women for being beautiful and so on. Some might find even these descriptions distasteful too." ***** S (new): And I think this neatly ties up with Connie's, Scott's & Howard's discussions too on the foulness of the body! Metta, Sarah ======== #63843 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:47 am Subject: Re: Ditthi (Jon) philofillet Hi Jon > Yes, all forms of lobha (of which wrong view is one) Ph: Oh - this is new to me. Wrong view as a form of lobha. I guess I thought lobha was one cetasika and wrong view another one. Distinct - associated, but distinct. >tend to be welcomed > because they are accompanied by either pleasant or neutral feeling, > never by unpleasant feeling. Makes sense. > > However, wrong view is particularly pernicious because by definition it > involves the idea that it is right (otherwise it wouldn't be a *view*). Well, still not clear on this because when I'm listening sometimes it seems wrong view is not a *view* per se but just a failure to understand dhammas. But I guess it is a *view* if we see people, think there are people, for example? Obviously this is what we are doing 99.99% of the time, or whatever, so do we have wrong view 99.99% of the time or whatever? I think you will answer below. > > > This is the crux of my confusion. Is wrong view about failing to > >see realities, or is it thinking that there is no result of deeds > >etc, those big "wrong views." > > > > Wrong view is the held belief that things are other than they truly > are. So the (mere) failure to see things as they truly are is not wrong > view. Ph: Ok, above question answered. But still left with a sense that I sometimes hear otherwise. That's not a problem. I'll keep listening. Having everything fall together and make perfect sense would be a sign of wanting to have everything fall together and make perfect sense - and having it that way by the wanting. I appreciate a certain confusion. > >What is the connection between wrong view and sanna > >vipalassa? (Which if I recall means seeing the impermanent as > >permanent, the foul as beautiful, the suffering as happiness and one > >more I forget.) > > > > > > Of the sanna vipallassas, only those that perceive the impermanent as > permanent and the not-self as self are eradicated at stream-entry (along > with wrong view). > > Those that perceive the perceive the impure as pure and the painful as > pleasant remain and are not eradicated until later stages. Ph: Cool! Thanks. Could you tell me the pali names of the vipallassas again. Also, what is the opposite of vipallassas, when theing are perceived "correctly" if you will. "vi-" is a prefix meaning "not", right. So is is "pallassa?" Nah, just panna I guess. > > > Today I looked up Right View in MN 117 There is "right view that > >is affected by the taints, partkaing of merit, ripening in > >acquisitions" -this seems to deal with those big "wrong views" there > >is fruit and result of good and bad actions etc. And then there > >is "right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of > >the path?" This is referring to the "faculty of wisdom", to the > >investigation-of-states enlightenment factor (vimsama? panna? are > >they the same?) > > > > Maybe these two branches or levels or varieties of right view is > >what is confusing for me. > > > > > > Yes, it is confusing. There are levels of right view (panna). Only > panna of the level of insight is a factor of the path. So the panna > that, for example, correctly understands an aspect of the teachings at > a conceptual level is still a condition for continued existence in > samsara. > Phil: I think it is interesting that mundane kusala is condition for continuing in samsara. Thanks. Talk to you again next week. This is a subject that just needs to soak in gradually and will for years. Can't be crammed or understood by trying harder to understand it - in my lazy opinion, maybe. phil #63844 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:15 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul gazita2002 Hello Scott, and Connie, Being a nurse/midwife I cant imagine how a new mum would react to the Vis. passage. :-) Personally, I think its wonderful. Birthing is a very painful - for the mother- and possibly for the baby, altho none have spoken about it - that I know of! However, does it really put us off, wanting to be born again and again, so that we can experience all the five khandhas over and over? Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Hi connie, > > Good one: > > "I am disgusted with the body, .............. > Gotamii, is going to her end, then all conditioned states are > impermanent." > > What about this: > > Visuddhimagga, XVI, 37 (~Naa.namoli): > > "...When this being is born in the mother's womb, he is not born > inside a blue or red or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a > worm in rotting fish, rotting dough, cess-pools, etc., he is born in > the belly in a position that is below the receptacle for undigested > food (stomach), above the receptacle for digested food (rectum), > between the belly-lining and the backbone, which is very cramped, > quite dark, pervaded by very fetid draughts redolent of various smells > or ordure, and exceptionally loathsome. And on being reborn there, > for ten months he undergoes excessive suffering, being cooked like a > pudding in a bag by heat produced in the mother's womb, and steamed > like a dumpling of dough, with no bending, stretching, and so on..." > > C'mon Hallmark, make a Mother's Day card out of this. > > No longer hungry, > > Scott. > #63845 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Hi Scott (Connie, Howard, James & all), You just blah on as much as you like:-). --- Scott Duncan wrote: > What I find interesting in relation to this sort of "meditation," and > in particular its mention these days, even given Howard's cautions, is > that it sort of flows in and pops up during my day and is timely. .... S: Yes, timely reminders that what we take for beautiful is so foul really. I'm not exactly sure what Howard had in mind, but I have met people who've really gone off the track in terms of focussed meditations on foulness and I think it can be dangerous too. Not the Middle Path. The way you and Connie banter back and forth with timely quotes is very daily life as I see it:-). .... > Nearly two years after the death of a wife I notice the unthawing of > libido. I'm not looking for a new partner; I do notice I'm looking > though. And I think of connie's quotes, or rather they come up, as I > said, amidst all the other things (as it were, sorry). Its almost in > the form of a rather unstructured inner argument and helpful are the > references to close-stools in a perspective-putting sort of way. .... S: I still think it's a strange term to use in translation.... .... > > I imagine these days that some form of celibacy might conduce more > favourably to living the spiritual life but I don't know how such a > notion will develop, nor do I take it that seriously because it may > not be the point: at least, there is no one who can benefit from and > no one to choose celibacy as a means of practise. .... S: That's right and we may plan on a certain way of life and find ourselves living another way by accumulations for such. The good news is that satipatthana can develop whichever way life unfolds and better to develop satipatthana as a common householder than wrong view as an ascetic celibate, for example. James raised the topic of whether a bhikkhu has more opportunity to follow the path and so on. I wouldn't set any rule of this kind - it all depends on the understanding and confidence in what the truth is at this moment. After all, what happens when a bhikkhu disrobes? Does he then have less wisdom to share? ... > Blah, blah, blah. > > I hope you all are well. .... S: Look forward to the next Blahs. Did you meet the teacher mentioned before (talking of bhikkhus)? Were we going to have a report from the perspective of 'finding a teacher'? Metta, Sarah ======== #63846 From: "sofgld" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sofgld Hi Sara (& Han) I am sorry I found your mail only today. I am not a frequent visitor here, as I mentioned in my first mail- a newbie. ( I started reading Sutta only about six months ago.) My knowledge is way behind yours(all) and I feel I should come here and read occasionally articles that is within my reach. I am from down-under, under the name of science, I was carried away for quite a while from dhamma/religon. I am on five precepts for nearly a year now. Recently, I visited Yangon and Bangkok, and learned this story from a monk. I was stunned; I couldn't bring myself to believe this, how could a Devine do such a thing! Then I recollect once the 3rd Buddha while on alms round found a sow told his disciple that the sow was a Brahmin before reborn as a chuke and now a sow. I thank the monk for giving me the story, actually he told me all the names, but the time was limited and my Pali is horrible plus terrible ;-) Hence I was here( and thanks to Han), I went to two other sites first, but no go. What did I get from this story? Samvega! a big one. Once someone asked Ajahn Chah about the Arahant, he said, don't ask about Arahant, Buddhisava or even Buddha...because you suffer whoever you will be. How true. And what did Ajahn Sumedho say? "Whenever I think about myself, I suffered!!!" Once my elder brother and I were having breakfast, at the same time, he was feeding the dog and said, " you love a dog, you become the slave of the dog, you love a woman, you become the slave of that woman, the best thing is, if possible, don't love anyone!" Too late, he has four children and I have 3 at that time! LOL! My aim ? Dear Sara, I am not greedy, I only want to be a stream winner in this very life! Please don't laugh, you asked and I answer:-) In case you don't see me here around, I don't mean to be ungrateful, I have to leave the raft and carry on. Metta (heaps) Sof --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: <...> > Can I encourage you to introduce yourself a little such as telling us > where you live, your interest in the Buddha's teachings and so on? > > Thanks for your interesting thread! <...> #63847 From: "sofgld" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sofgld Hi Jon (& Han) Just imagine- What if your CEO frames you to something real nasty? Poor Isisinga didn't even know his sila was damaged, while thinking about 'velvet electrica' Nilikaa :-) A big piti smile!LOL Albeit devas' brains aren't as powerful as human beings, their divine eyes plus other Powers, give them a great edge. The best way to avoid all these is to QUIT the cycle. ---------- Details can be read in German http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/jataka/j526.htm in German and in English Google translation http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...2005-11,GGLD:en English ---------- May you all be FREE from these Much Metta Sof --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Sof (and Han) > > An intriguing story (and thanks, Han, for tracking down the reference). > > I'm also interested in the subject heading you have given this thread: > 'Deva uses divine power to change human karma'. Would you care to say > something on this aspect of the story? Thanks. > > Jon <...> #63848 From: "dacostacharles" Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:54 am Subject: Mind dacostacharles Hi all, I want to start a thread describing the Mind. From its components (including their functions and interactions) to the Minds responces to different stimuli. And yes I know this is a tall order. #63849 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:23 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 536- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd The Visuddhimagga (I, 154) mentions the following dangers of failure in virtue: * … Furthermore, on account of his unvirtuousness an unvirtuous person is displeasing to deities and human beings, is uninstructable by his fellows in the life of purity, suffers when unvirtuousness is censured, and is remorseful when the virtuous are praised…" * We then read about many other disadvantages. For example, the unvirtuous are always nervous, like a man who is everyone’s enemy, he is unfit to live with and incapable of reaching the distinction of attainment. Although he imagines that he is happy, yet he is not, since he reaps suffering. When we neglect morality we may suffer afterwards from remorse. When we, for example, give in to slandering we may enjoy it at that moment, but afterwards remorse may arise and then there is no joy, no peace of mind. If we abstain from slandering there is no opportunity for remorse. When we abstain from slandering with kindness and consideration for others the citta is quite different from the citta which is forgetful of morality and gives in to slandering. We may be able to learn the different characteristics of such moments. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63850 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ditthi (Jon) jonoabb Hi Phil A quick comment and clarification on my part. Phil wrote: > Hi Jon > > > >>Yes, all forms of lobha (of which wrong view is one) >> >> > > Ph: Oh - this is new to me. Wrong view as a form of lobha. I guess >I thought lobha was one cetasika and wrong view another one. >Distinct - associated, but distinct. > > You are right, wrong view is a specific cetasika. But it only ever arises with cittas rooted in lobha. Sorry for any confusion. Jon #63851 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha (& Han), --- matheesha wrote: > > AN 10.6 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A v 7 <...> > See also: AN 9.36; AN 10.7. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.006.than.html .... S: I think you've quoted from the Samadhi Sutta before. I wondered this time whether there was a point you were emphasising? Btw, did you see Han's post (which I thought was very good) on the same sutta? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60060 Do you agree with his conclusions and comments out of interest? Metta, Sarah ======== #63852 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 1:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Existence matheesha333 Hi Sarah, M: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.006.than.html > .... > S: I think you've quoted from the Samadhi Sutta before. I wondered this > time whether there was a point you were emphasising? M: Oh that was in response to your conversation with Daniel: > What can we say > about > "that-which-is-not-cognized-by-any-of-the-six-types-of- consciousnesses"? .... S: There may be some types of consciousness which themselves are never cognized perhaps. But in general, I would say that that which is not cognized as you write above does not exist. M: The samadhi sutta I posted this time is very different to the ones I posted before. Lets talk more later.. with metta Matheesha > > Btw, did you see Han's post (which I thought was very good) on the same > sutta? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60060 > > Do you agree with his conclusions and comments out of interest? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #63853 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:43 am Subject: Right On !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Are you Fully Aware and Clearly Comprehending ? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu should dwell fully aware and clearly comprehending. This is our instruction to you. And how is a Bhikkhu fully aware? When a Bhikkhu continuously contemplates: 1: The Body as an Accumulation... 2: The Feeling as a Sensation... 3: The Mind as a Mood... 4: The Phenomenon as a Mental State.. while always acutely alert & clearly comprehending, he thereby removes any urge, envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent rooted in this world... In exactly this way is a Bhikkhu fully aware! And how is a Bhikkhu clearly comprehending? Here the Bhikkhu notes, understands & observes Feelings as they arise, remain present, and as these feelings pass away. He also notes, understands and observes any Thought as it arises, remains present, and as the thought passes away. He additionally notes, understands and observes any Perception as it arises, remains present, and as this experience instantly passes away... In exactly this way is a Bhikkhu clearly comprehending! Bhikkhus, any Bhikkhu should dwell fully aware and clearly comprehending !!! This is our instruction to you ... Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 180-1] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 35 Aware.. Details On Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63854 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 3:45 am Subject: Fwd: Heartfelt Gratitude from Seelagawesi Thero sarahprocter... [I believe this is intended for DSG} --- Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero wrote: > Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 15:04:05 +0600 > Dear Dhamma friends, > > > > I would like to say that we are looking forward to our pilgrimage to > India, > where the Buddha was. With the completion of a successful Rain Retreat, > I > look forward to practicing and sharing some of my realization. > > > > We have learnt that the Buddha in his previous lives practiced the ten > fulfillments, the ten subsidiary fulfillments and the ten absolute > fulfillments. The fulfilled perfections assisted him to develop strong > mindfulness, concentration and wisdom in his Bodhisattva nature. > > > > After his Buddha hood, the Buddha lived for 45 years with full of > compassion. When the final day dawned, the disciples in Kusinara were > anxious to accept the passing away of their great teacher. The Buddha > had a > marvelous energy to console them for their own realization. It is true > that > everybody in Kusinara that day received energy for their self > understanding. > Therefore Kusinara is one of the best places to find the energy for self > consolation and self realization through wise attention. > > > > Kusinara is the most suitable place for meditation, for the > "recollection of > the death". One should practice this meditation and try to understand > the > nature of death before his or her own demise. > > > > The Buddha is the perfect example to show us that there is nothing to > grasp > in this world. The word of the Buddha should become "our medication" to > heal ourselves. The disciples of the Buddha should become "our kinsman > ship". It is clear that with "continued meditation", we experience this > truth. > > > > Visiting Kusinara and spending some time with meditative mind is very > rare > opportunity that we cherish. I now have gained this opportunity and I > would > like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to all of you who have supported > me in > making this pilgrimage come true. > > > > May you gain confidence courage and strength for your good health and > find > peace and happiness! > > > > With much love and compassion, > > > > Seelagawesi Thero > #63855 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply on the subject, and also for the relevant references. I think men and women are EQUALLY capable of doing wholesome deeds or unwholesome deeds. I respect your views expressed in your message (# 36411): Quote: [S: Are these lines about women any less unflattering than those in the Jataka verse I quoted about ‘the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of women-folk’ in Kunala Jataka, no536? I’m not sure. As Rob suggested, it doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political correctness in this lifetime? The Vinaya texts are full of tales of the foolishness and vulnerability of men to the charms of women. Hence the laying down of so many rules on this account which many people see today as being sexist, referring to the ‘second-class’ rules of bhikkhunis and so on.] End Quote. Han: Yes, who are we to question the knowledge of the Buddha? But at the same time, there were many women arahants in the literature, who were worthy of worship, like Theri Dhammadinna. Even her ex-husband Visakha, who was already an Anaagami, had to bow down to her. As Nina has written in (#36635), it is true that it is a weaker vipaka to be born a woman, but women can become arahats. After all, my mother was a woman! Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han (Sof, Jon, Scott, Connie & all), > We had some interesting discussions on this topic of > 'the deceitful nature > of women' before, including the Kunala Jataka, 536 > and a section from Qs > of King Milinda: #63856 From: "Sebastien aka French Dread aka Mesa" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 4:29 am Subject: To Nina : translation of your books in french ? sbillard2000 Sorry for posting on the group, but i have not found Nina's private email... Nina, I would like to know if you would allow me to translate in french parts (or perhaps the whole book in the long term, i don't know yet) of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life", as it is available for free online ? Of course the translation would be made freely available on the web, and not used for commercial purpose. Here is my personnal email : s.billard@... Thanks :) Sébastien Billard http://s.billard.free.fr #63857 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 4:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Jon, > >The Buddha said depending on the corresponding external medium and >> the corresponding internal medium, there arises the corresponding > >consciousness. As such, the internal intellect medium cannot be > >referring to "all kinds of consciousness". It doesn't make sense. > > I'd like to follow this through further with you. Perhaps we should > look at a specific text. Do you have one in mind? ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html "'The six internal media should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. 'The six internal media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the first sextet. "'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the second sextet. "'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > As regards the 'rupa' part, Vism has more at the reference just > given (see Ch XVII, 186 - 202 of the Nanamoli translation), which > I need to study in more detail before I can summarise. However, > it's obvious I think that rupa cannot refer to *all* instances of > the four great elements etc because that would include inanimate > objects such as rocks, etc, so it's a matter of how far the sutta > reference is to be read down. I take form to include both form internal to the body and external to the body. However, in the dependency of "name-&-form depends on consciousness", form obviously refers only to form internal to the body. Regards, Swee Boon #63858 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 5:13 am Subject: Re: Ditthi (Jon) philofillet Hi Jon (and all) > > Ph: Oh - this is new to me. Wrong view as a form of lobha. I guess > >I thought lobha was one cetasika and wrong view another one. > >Distinct - associated, but distinct. > > > > > > You are right, wrong view is a specific cetasika. But it only ever > arises with cittas rooted in lobha. Right, I'd forgotten about that - this is an interesting point. Cittas rooted in dosa are never accompanied by wrong view. Interesting, one would think "hate" would be accompanied by wrong view. This might be another thing that helps us to understand how lobha leads to dosa. Attachment with wrong view to dhammas conditioning dosa when the attachment is frustrated, but the wrong view is all in the lobha. What about killing? Surely the citta that propels an act of killing is rooted in dosa, but there is no ditthi accompanying it? I guess the ditthi is there, rooted in lobha, but at a different split second moment apart. Dosa > lobha rooted citta accompanied by wrong view that says its ok to kill> dosa> dosa > SPLAT!!! Not a thought out process, just a flash of an impulse that communicates "ok to kill" in a non- verbal view? (The splat is a mosquito, folks. Not a motorcyle driver. But the dynamic, if correct - I doubt it - wouldn't be any different. Or would it? Maybe the "view" element would be more pronounced since killing a human would demand more justification from wrong view. Just thinking out loud. phil #63859 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 5:37 am Subject: Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear Gazita, I hope you are well. G: "Birthing is a very painful - for the mother- and possibly for the baby, altho none have spoken about it - that I know of!" Speaking of shrink rap, Freud considered birth trauma to be a factor in the presence of anxiety in general and a root of some neuroses. This seems to be due to his unusual sense of the conditionality of things. But no, I've not heard of any newborns telling about the experience. Western society seems, rather, to idealise the womb and being in it, as a place of extreme peace and bliss. Perhaps another example of mixing fond for foul. G: "However, does it really put us off, wanting to be born again and again, so that we can experience all the five khandhas over and over?" Apparently not. However, learning of apparitional birth, and with respect, failing cessation, maybe this would be less painful. It might explain how there is such general happiness and pleasure in the deva realms, you know "psychologically" speaking - no being stewed like a dumpling. With loving kindness, Scott. #63860 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "That's right and we may plan on a certain way of life and find ourselves living another way by accumulations for such. The good news is that satipatthana can develop whichever way life unfolds and better to develop satipatthana as a common householder than wrong view as an ascetic celibate, for example." Yeah, true. S: "James raised the topic of whether a bhikkhu has more opportunity to follow the path and so on. I wouldn't set any rule of this kind - it all depends on the understanding and confidence in what the truth is at this moment." I would suppose that what happens to a bhikkhu in terms of the following of the path would depend as much on conditions as would what happens to the lay person. As to opportunity, this is ever-present, as is oft-stated. S: "After all, what happens when a bhikkhu disrobes? Does he then have less wisdom to share?" It would depend on the bhikkhu wouldn't it? ;-) But no, of course not, wise as a bhikkhu is wise disrobed wouldn't you say? As with anything, disrobing, or "robing" for that matter, is a complexly-conditioned event which can just as easily condition wholesomeness as it might unwholesomeness I suppose. S: "Did you meet the teacher mentioned before (talking of bhikkhus)? Were we going to have a report from the perspective of 'finding a teacher'?" I did, and will again mid-week, but had asked earlier for some clarification regarding what one can report about such things while maintaining proper respect for the monk. Any guidelines before I proceed? With that I'll report. With loving kindness, Scott. #63861 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Scott & all) - In a message dated 10/1/06 12:34:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: Yes, timely reminders that what we take for beautiful is so foul > really. > > I'm not exactly sure what Howard had in mind, but I have met people who've > really gone off the track in terms of focussed meditations on foulness and > I think it can be dangerous too. > -------------------------------------- Howard: This is exactly what I have in mind. A certain mental and emotional balance and stability is required for such meditation, and for those who obviously lack this and also for those who are vulnerable without realizing their vulnerability, such practice could lead to depression or worse. For the wrong persons, or the right persons at the wrong time, or for the right persons at the right time but inexpertly supervised, even without the truly dire results, there is at least the danger of cultivating aversion instead of kusala disechantment. These are my concerns. But not to be completely negative: For the right person at the right time and when expertly supervised, meditation on foulness could be just what the doctor (a.k.a. the Buddha) ordered. --------------------------------------------- Not the Middle Path. The way you and> > Connie banter back and forth with timely quotes is very daily life as I > see it:-). > ====================== With metta, Howard #63862 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 9:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nidive Hi Sarah, > S: BB uses 'the mind is the self' and 'mind objects', but I think > this is also somewhat misleading as mind objects could also refer > to ideas. > The Buddha is referring to paramattha dhammas - dhammas that arise > and fall away, are dukkha and anatta. I find it helpful to think of concepts/ideas as a paramattha dhamma. Concepts/ideas are what we cling on to strongly and I see no reason why the Buddha should exclude it from his teachings on anicca, dukkha and anatta. The Pali word for 'ideas' as translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is just 'dhamma', without any qualification made by the Buddha. I also understand that concepts/ideas is called 'pannatti dhammas' by K. Sujin. > > If the answer is yes and satipatthana can't take on a concept, how > > then is the release of clinging on to concepts to be discerned? > .... > S: By directly understanding and being aware of the clinging when it > appears. Clinging is clinging regardless of the object of clinging. > It doesn't matter whether it's clinging to a cat, a computer, a pink > elephant or having more awareness. > Clinging can cling to anything except nibbana and the lokuttara > cittas. Without realizing the anicca, dukkha and anatta nature of a paramattha dhamma, can the release of clinging be discerned? Is it not possible for a deluded person to think that although the clinging is anicca, dukkha and anatta, yet the object that is clung to is eternal and unchanging (think of the pure Buddha citta or luminous mind being good and splendid along some Mahayanist school of thought)? If the above is true for paramattha dhammas, how much so it is for concepts/ideas! > Ideas - say that of a computer or a pink elephant never exist. The > thinking of such arises and falls and has a concept as object. If concepts/ideas are not paramattha dhammas, how can it be said that thinking has concepts/ideas as its object? Something that does not exist cannot be said to be the object of thinking. It simply doesn't exist! Including concepts/ideas as paramattha dhammas solves the dilemma for me. It brings sanity back to the Dhamma as it is expounded by the Buddha in various suttas on the six sense bases. Regards, Swee Boon #63863 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:42 am Subject: Sorry, I was away buddhatrue Hi All, I was away from my computer all weekend because I went to Taipei for gay pride celebrations (something they don't have in Egypt so I thoroughly enjoyed myself :-). Anyway, I see that while I was gone I got quite a few posts. Tomorrow is Monday and my busiest day at school, but I will try to get to as many of the posts as possible. Sorry for the delay. Metta, James #63864 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:19 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence dacostacharles Hi Howard, You sound like somebody from the Mind-only school! Charles DaCosta <....> I'd like to put forward an alternative scenario, not with the purpose of foisting it on anyone, but only to present it as another possibility. What I'm addressing is the statement "Our experience of the wall may go "on &off", but the physical wall itself don't disappear &reappear in sync with our experience of it." The alternative scenario, unverifiable for sure, and definitely not asserted by me as fact but only as possibility, is that there is no actual external wall or even actual underlying "external rupas", nor has/have there been. Instead, there have been dhammas experienced, contents of conscious, a variety of experiential conditions in various namarupic streams, that led to "internal rupas" repeatedly being experienced that are identified as constituting an external wall that gets repeatedly "seen". The whole matter could be viewed as one of multiple interacting streams of experiential conditions. In this scenario, rupas are experiential phenomena, primary object-content of experience. There is a regularity and pattern to the conditionality involved, and what happens is a matter of causes and conditions, but all experiential - direct, paramatthic (experiential) conditions leading to others, arising and ceasing, and upon which our thought processing serves as a script writer. Another way of putting it: This scenario amounts to saying that so-called external reality is actually a virtual reality. It is *like* a dream. I close with a disclaimer: This alternative scenario is given here just as "food for thought", and not as a thesis I wish to defend. Whether this perspective is correct or not, still dukkha, its cause, the reality of nibbana, and the path to realizing nibbana remain. Relinquishment remains at the core of the Dhamma, and not particular world-views. With metta, Howard #63865 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:14 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence dacostacharles Hi Sarah and all, I agree that when we THINK about a tree, it only exists in our imagination/mind (the THOUGHT that is); the ENTITIES we call trees exist out-side our minds; and we can only EXPERIENCE these entities (i.e., trees) via the 6 sense-gates (as objects of the gates). Now that I better understand your language, I can say I think we are on the same page. However, it is widely accepted that there are other ways of sensing and sensed-objects that humans are not normal for humans. Charles DaCosta _____ Hi Charles D (& Daniel), --- Charles DaCosta TELE.DK> wrote: > The idea that things "exist" or "don't really exist" is really based on > location not the concept of "reality." > > What I mean is that things "exist" or "don't really exist" in the mind. > This > does not relate to the individual existence of something. The tree > really > exist as the concept tree and yet exist in the mind when we cognize it. .... S: When we think about the tree, it only exists in our imagination. ... > But > in the "mind" it does not exist when not cognized by mind. Yet in the > forest > the tree exist. ... S: Yes, when there's no thinking about 'tree' it doesn't exist because it's a concept. In the forest, the rupas of the tree arise and fall away, but all that can ever be directly experienced with regard to the tree are visible object, hardness or tangible object, smell, taste(!) or sound. When the Buddha taught about the 6 worlds, it was with regard to what could be directly experienced. As Howard always stresses, any existing dhamma outside these worlds is completely unknown and for all intents and purposes doesn not exist at all for us. Agree? Metta, Sarah #63866 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:58 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Self dacostacharles Hi Daniel, Most schools of Tibetan Buddhism emphasize a graded path for mastering Buddhist philosophy. One of the reasons for this is the wealth of information can be confusing and misleading. This is especially true when studying Tibetan Buddhist's philosophy. Keep in mind that several leaders within the philosophical traditions of Tibetan Buddhism have called it "Crazy Wisdom!" This is not to scare you; it is only to push you into "respecting the situation" and back along the path where you could find knowledge more appropriate to your level. A good litmus test is how practical is the information. In a nut shell, it was very good that your studies keep pointing to YOU, because you must find yourself before you can, and should, lose it. Personally speaking, when you said the following I feared you jumped from step A,b,orC to step Q: "I tried to read books on Tibetan Buddhism for a while, but this was mostly on myself. As far as I understood, some "false me" is refuted after all, isn't it..." So no, it may not be a false You. Charles DaCosta #63867 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:06 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Repression dacostacharles Hi Daniel, There is a sutra that states you should beat down all unwholesome thoughts. So, it can be argued that repression is one of the tactics the Buddha said to use. DSG is more of a philosophical group so ... BUT what really is your problem? Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 00:31 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Repression Hi all, Perhaps anyone could give me an advice as to what is helpful to do in a case of repression of certain feelings? When feelings like envy arise in me, I think "I do not want to be such a person thinks envious thoughts! So I should try not to think them ". Or at least "I should not belong to that type of nasty person that act because of envy! ". I read someone saying in this group that "the self cannot generate kusala and akusala cittas". But I would be happy to recieve a down-to-earth advice, something which one does not even has to be a buddhist for, or have a thourough understanding of anatta... Thank you, Daniel #63868 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - > You sound like somebody from the Mind-only school! > Charles DaCosta > > ========================== Well, there are eddies and streams within vijnanavada that I find to my liking and those that I do not. The notion of storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana), for example, is not at all to my liking, striking me as substantialist and completely unnecessary. But, sure, Vasubandhu is a "good friend" of mine! ;-) With metta, Howard #63869 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 9:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I didn't see anything stupid about your post. I think everyone has > moments of thinking their lifestyle or personality is in conflict with > their interest in the Dhamma. Such moments are bound to arise because, > even if we know 'rationally' that there is no such conflict, there is > still the deep-seated view that there is ;-)) What was stupid about my post is that I made such a big deal out of the issue. I made it sound like I face some sort of deep angst and/or consternation over this art issue- and that isn't the case at all. If I was a monk it could possibly be a larger issue, but as a layperson it isn't that big of a deal. I made a mountain out of a molehill, which is what was stupid. In a related vein, Jon, you and I see very differently when it comes to the whole householder/monk issue. You seem to think that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to become a monk. That householders can do exactly the same things that monks do. Personally, I think you are wrong. You want it to be that way so you say it is that way. If becoming a monk was not a favourable thing to do, the Buddha wouldn't have formed a community of monks. Here is a telling sutta passage: Responding, "As you say, lord," Ven. Sona chanted all sixteen parts of the Atthakavagga. The Blessed One, at the conclusion of Ven. Sona's chanting, was highly pleased [and said], "Good, good, monk. You have learned the Attakavagga [verses] well, have considered them well, have borne them well in mind. You have a fine delivery, clear & faultless, that makes the meaning intelligible. How many Rains [in the monkhood] do you have?" "I have one Rains, lord." "But why did you take so long [to ordain]?" "For a long time, lord, I have seen the drawbacks in sensual passions, but the household life is crowded with many duties, many things to be done." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Seeing the drawbacks of the world, knowing the state without acquisitions, a noble one doesn't delight in evil, in evil a pure one doesn't delight. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html#why However, I also believe that in this day and age of a declining sangha, it is generally better to be a householder instead of a monk— especially if you come from a western country. Personally, I had a very bad experience trying to ordain (and I don't think that my experience is isolated). Also, I believe that householders can accomplish a great deal in the dhamma if they are persistent and consistent. Metta, James p.s. I know that this post is rather rambling, but I am trying to address many of your posts to me with one post. #63870 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is one of my favorite films, James, and, yes, it is a clear > allegory of samsara and the escape from samsara. A delightful film! BTW, if you > haven't seen The Truman Show, please do see that film as well. The symbolism is > similar, and also extremely clever and subtle IMO. I think it is brilliant. (I > would love sometime to view it again and discuss elements of it with you, and > others here of course as well. James: Sure, I have seen that movie a couple of times and enjoyed it. However, I don't see the Buddhist symbolism as clearly as you do. Perhaps you could elucidate it for me? > Howard: > There is not just the conventional rebirth from lifetime to lifetime, > but also the perpetual rebirth of sense of self and of grasping. There is the > ongoing rebirth of the sense of me and mine. From a non- annihilationist > perspective, I think that purifying the mind here and now and "stopping the cycle" > may come down to pretty much the same thing. James: Yes, of course they are the same thing. What I was wondering is which should be the motivating factor? So that one approaches the dhamma with wisdom, what should be the motivation? Personally, my motivation has predominately been to purify the mind. I don't know about my past lives and past suffering, I am just aware of my current suffering. However, perhaps that is the wrong motivation. After all, what motivated the Buddha to seek the truth was to end the cycle of rebirth (he saw the old, sick, and dead which motivated him; he wasn't motivated by the anger, greed, and delusion of his own mind.); however, Sariputta described nibbana as the ceasing of the defilements. You see, it is described in those two different ways through out the texts. Perhaps this is important and perhaps it is a non-issue, like I said I am just thinking out loud. Let's say that "living in" samsara > consists of a rat race on a wheel, and the realization of nibbana is the > stepping off that wheel to the freedom that already is a reality. If we think that > being on the wheel is "existence" and being off is "non- existence", that is > both a substantialist and nihilist perspective, an embracing of two extremes. > If, on the other hand, we think of being on the wheel as simply unnecessary > obsessive and compulsive and ignorant lunacy, and the stepping off as the > relinquishment of a self-imposed torture, it is another matter entirely. James: This seems to be a combination of the two themes (cessation of rebirth and purification of the mind), but this analogy doesn't quite do it for me- I think it is too complicated for my little brain. ;-)) > ----------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Interesting, isn't it? On the face of it, such an experience seems to > be a "downer" and just the sort of "unpleasant" thing folks wish to avoid. But > the facts are that it is a critically important event, and wonderfully > deservant of celebration at its occurrence. James: In my personal experience, samvega is a downer. It is not pleasant at all to realize the futility and meaninglessness of life. However, pasada (knowing that there is a solution) is the reason to celebrate. > -------------------------------------- > > > > > However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > > a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > > here. Comments would be appreciated. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think of the ending of samsara as the end of experience in eve > ry possible sense. Primarily, I think of it as the ending of any felt need for > there to be or not be experience of any particular sort, or for experience in > general or its absence. It is the awakening from a dream of slavery and > illusion to a realization of freedom and wisdom. I think of someone who has been > pedaling a bicycle with the gears fixed at the lowest setting so as to require > enormous struggle in the pedaling, and who then releases the gears entirely, > and with the most delightful ease simply coasts freely. James: Nice analogy. This one is simple enough for me to understand. ;-)) So, it seems that you are in the "purifying the mind" camp and care little about the result in rebirth or not. I am also in that camp, but I am wondering if I should switch camps. ;-)) > -------------------------------------- > > > > > Metta, > > James > > Ps. I hope that this post isn't as stupid as my art one. ;-)) > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are addressing only the very most important matter there is! How > in the world could that be stupid? :-) James: The matter isn't stupid, but the way I address it could be. However, seeing from the depth of your response, this post probably isn't that stupid. ;-)) > ===================== > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #63871 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ... > S: I think the important thing to remember is that samvegga is referring > to an understanding, a sense of urgency with wisdom, not to any unpleasant > thoughts or feelings. I disagree with this statement. Samvegga, even though it involves wisdom, does include unpleasant feelings. Metta, James #63872 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > > a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > > here. Comments would be appreciated. > > Depending on how you view it. > > To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. > > To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha & suffering. This may be, but how practical is it?? I am not free of self or the conceit of I, so this advice doesn't do me a lot of good. However, thank you for your input all the same. :-) > > Regards, > Swee Boon > Metta, James #63873 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > James, I enjoyed your Groundhog post and reflections. Also the 'Art' ones > and the following discussion. Nothing stupid about it:-). I'm glad you enjoyed it (but you are easy to please ;-)). Metta, James #63874 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna) buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Hi Jon, > > > >Jon: Yes, there can be kusala citta that has a kasina as its object. > >But the question is, if the citta with kasina as object is to be > >kusala, by virtue of what will it be so? Merely having a kasina as > >object, even with the intention of developing samatha, does not make > >the citta kusala, and nowhere in the Vism does it say that that is > >so. > > > >James: What is your point? Could you please just state your point? > >... > >We seem to get as far as: focusing on a kasina may or may not be > >kusala…and then that's it. What's your final point? > > > > > > I think you've got the point already ;-)). James: Oh, now that was a let down! I thought that you were leading somewhere! ;-)) Like you say, focussing on a > kasina may or may not be kusala. So the obvious question is, under what > circumstances will it be kusala? The answer to this is not so easy to > see, as it is not really spelt out in the suttas as far as I know, nor > in the other texts. James: I will check the Vism. as I go through it. It has many chapters on kasina meditation. If I don't find this issue addressed then I think we can safely assume it is a non-issue. (Actually, just from this discussion, I am thinking that it is a non-issue because it doesn't seem to have a point.) > > First of all, we are talking here about samatha, right? Samatha means > 'serenity' (to use the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation), and refers to a > mental state that is accompanied by kusala mental factors including that > of passadhi (which BB translates as 'tranquillity'). > > Some examples of kinds of samatha are: > - metta, the wholesome concern or wish for another's welfare > - recollection of the Dhamma, as when reflecting on parts of teachings > that have been heard and understood James: I think you have left out the most obvious kind of samatha: jhana. Jhana is samatha. > > In the case of metta the wholesome mental factor of adosa (non- hatred) > is present. In the case of recollection of the Dhamma the mental factor > of panna may be present. > > As we have agreed, focussing on (concentrating on) a kasina is something > that can be done without the need for any particular kusala mental > factor. All that is needed is an interest in the object or a motivation > of some sort (such as the idea that doing it will bring certain > results), and the 'practice' can 'develop'. But it will be akusala > rather than kusala unless the person knows directly his/her kusala > mental states from his/her akusala ones. James: Again, I see this as a non-issue. If the person concentrates on the kasina without the presence of kusala, jhana will not arise. If the person concentrates on the kasina with kusala, jhana will arise. So? What's your point? > > Hoping this clarifies my point somewhat. Nope, not really. Sorry. :-( > > Jon > Metta, James #63875 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta the householder (was, Kasina meditation is evil?) buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > According to BB's introductory notes to the Cittasamyutta section of SN > (Salayatanavagga): > << << << > Citta was named by the Buddha the foremost male lay disciple among the > speakers on the Dhamma. ... Several times we see him teaching the > Dhamma to bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus applaud him as one who has "the eye > of wisdom that ranges over the deep Word of the Buddha". > >> >> >> > > BB cites the suttas at SN 41:1, 5, 7 in this regard. Here is a link to > the ATI version of the last of these: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.007.than.html Well, I'm at a loss here because I don't have my copy of SN. The sutta that you quote here, that B. Bodhi sees as a teaching to a monk, I don't see it that way. I view this sutta as the monk testing Citta's knowledge of the dhamma. The reason I view it this way is because of how the sutta ends: "It's a gain for you, householder, a great gain: what your eye of discernment plumbs in the deep word of the Buddha." This is not the standard formula for what the suttas state at the end of a teaching. At the end of a teaching, the formula is that the hearer delights and rejoices in the words. Such as: "And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer" I think that the monk in this sutta, Ven. Godatta, already knew the answer when he asked Citta the question. After all, he tells Citta that it is a gain for Citta that he knows what he knows, he doesn't thank him or delight in his words. This is a subtle difference but an important one, I believe. As far as the other two suttas, I would have to read them. However, overall, I wouldn't say that Citta was teaching a great number of monks (if he taught any at all). The monks during the Buddha's time had the Buddha and his chief disciples, as well as many arahants, to learn the dhamma from. It would have been a sad state of affairs if monks had to go to householders for dhamma instruction. Metta, James #63876 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 10:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > James raised the topic of whether a bhikkhu has more opportunity to follow > the path and so on. I wouldn't set any rule of this kind - it all depends > on the understanding and confidence in what the truth is at this moment. James: Huh? "...understanding and confidence in what the truth is as at this moment", what does that mean? This sounds like a platitude to me. > After all, what happens when a bhikkhu disrobes? Does he then have less > wisdom to share? James: That would depend on the reason he/she disrobed. > ... Metta, James #63877 From: connie Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:30 pm Subject: toodles! nichiconn hi colette, why bother running off after name callers to see where that leads? are you on assignment or ?? let's hear more about the different views you dis/agree with or wonder about then. peace, connie #63878 From: connie Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 11:29 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul nichiconn Hi Guys. Funny to be in a foul discussion with Howard! Of course, the texts warn about snake handling and also two ends of a stick but it still remains asubha everywhere. Not a spot on this earth where you haven't died & such. As long as we're running around like the fools we are, we're all on the dark side. Not all walking softly having dropped the stick but still stumbling. Charming Maara the refuge! and who's to say insanity isn't a matter of degrees, perfect(ed) in it's own right. we defend it well enough. we all kinda tweak "buddhism". misread (even intentionally, say any old remark or 'expression') or otherwise mis-take things and run with it. how far in denial are we with that? raise your hand if you really think you understand hallucination. or realize when you walk in one. or sit. manu.r! "carry on, my wayward son, there'll be peace when you are done." closing my yap, connie "even the toilet paper .... but it's shorter than that" #63879 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina : translation of your books in french ? sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien (& Nina), Good to hear from you again! --- Sebastien aka French Dread aka Mesa wrote: > Nina, I would like to know if you would allow me to translate in french > parts (or perhaps the whole book in the long term, i don't know yet) > of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life", as it is available for free online ? Of > course the translation would be made freely available on the web, and > not used for commercial purpose. .... S: I know that Nina will be glad to respond in a day or two when she returns from a trip. I remember that you run a French website and I'm sure she'll be happy to see your interest in making ADL available. I have an idea it may already be translated into French, but Nina will clarify. I know it's been translated into German and Thai. Metta, Sarah ====== #63880 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right On !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, I've been following your series on Satipatthanasamyutta. --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > Are you Fully Aware and Clearly Comprehending ? > > The Blessed Buddha once said: > Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu should dwell fully aware and clearly comprehending. > This is our instruction to you. And how is a Bhikkhu fully aware? > When a Bhikkhu continuously contemplates: > > 1: The Body as an Accumulation... > 2: The Feeling as a Sensation... > 3: The Mind as a Mood... > 4: The Phenomenon as a Mental State.. .... S: Do you see these as referring to dhammas as objects of clear comprehension (sati-sampajanna)? If so, what dhammas do you see them as referring to? Would you also mind clarifying what you mean above by the terms. ... > > while always acutely alert & clearly comprehending, he thereby removes > any urge, envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent rooted in this > world... <...> ... S: What would you say actually removes the 'urge, envy etc' in this world? ... > Source of reference (edited extract): > The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. > Book [V: 180-1] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 35 Aware.. ... S: Thank you in advance for your clarifications. Metta, Sarah ======= #63881 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 1:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Real Existence pgradinarov Dear Charles, > The tree really exists as the concept tree > and yet exists in the mind when we cognize it. What is the difference between "really existing as a concept" and "yet existing in the mind"? Are not concepts existing only in the mind? > Yet in the forest the tree exists. Indeed, the real question here is whether the tree does really exist out there. Buddhism holds that neither the tree nor the forest are really existing out there. They are just names for denoting some rupa-kalapas (clumps of matter). What really exists out there are only the external rupas - provided we prove that they are the ultimate residium in analysing our phenomenological field down to its elementary constituents. However, if there is the slightest doubt that the dhamma cakkhu (eye) is not that ultimate as supposed and can be decomposed to further components, then even the paramattha-dhammas have to be declared conventionally existing and put under this or that class of universals as the tree and the forest. Or we have to revisit our concept of cakkhu and declare it unitary energy of seeing rather than the visual sense-organ as composed of sclera, macula, retina, lens, iris, cornea, etc., i.e., as a name for denoting a rupa-kalapa whose elements are further rupa-kalapas, etc., down to the atoms which also are peculiar rupa-kalapas or sanghata-paramanus (collisional units of matter). Kindest regards, Plamen #63882 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 535- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas sarahprocter... Dear Han (Nina, Tep, Chris & all), Thank you for your further comments which are helpful to reflect on. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, Nina and all, > > I read in the text, AN V.213 Siila Sutta, which > describes the five disadvantages to one who is wanting > in morals, and five advantages to one who is perfect > in morals. .... S: And only the sotapanna is perfect in morals in the sense of never again breaking the precepts. This is the perfection of adhi-sila. Without the development of understanding and eradication of the view of self, there cannot be the 'one who is perfect in morals'. .... > > In this respect, I would like to quote Ven. Bhikkhu > Bodhi from his ‘Nourishing the Roots’ some aspects of > siila. > > Quote: [A precept is, therefore, from the Buddhist > perspective much more than a prohibition imposed upon > conduct from without. Each precept is a tangible > expression of a corresponding attitude of mind, .... S: According to the texts, the observing of the precept is the moment of abstention (virati)from the harmful speech or deed or harmful mind-states involved. ... <..> > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi then quoted AN X.2 > Cetanaa-karaniiya Sutta, the edited excerpts from > which are printed below to show how siila is the first > step towards the realization of the knowledge and > vision of deliverance, and for crossing over from the > hither shore to the beyond. > > (1) For one who is endowed with virtue, freedom from > remorse arises. > (siilavato siila-sampannassa avippatisaaro uppajjati) <...> .... S: It's true isn't it, that when there is virtue (siila), there is freedom from remorse and so on. It's a good sutta and I remember Tep used to often quote it too. I don't believe it means that sila is perfected, then tranquillity begins, then panna begins and so on. However, we know that adhi sila is perfected by the sotapanna, while adhi citta (higher concentration) is only perfected by the anagami and adhi panna (higher wisdom) is only perfected by the arahant. Of course, all kinds of kusala, including sila from long, long ago, can be a support for wisdom to develop too. However, without the development of panna, adhi sila will not be developed at all. There will be no understanding of even moments of sila as being anatta, not worth clinging on to. The following is an extract from a post I wrote before on sila and precepts. I'll be glad to hear your comments. (Also on any others in U.P. under 'precepts' and 'sila'.) ***** [previous post] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44853 Sarah: >Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala (wholesome consciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. Usually there’s no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is simply referred to as ‘siila’, for example when there’s kindness or helpful speech now. As Chris mentioned, we discussed “the difference between "Undertaking" and "Observing" the Precepts. Observing the Precepts was a moment of restraint, of right intention, kusala sila. When the citta is kusala at a moment of abstention from breaking the Precepts, that is when it accumulates, that accumulation is the Training.” Here she is referring to virati(abstaining/restraint) discussed in the last thread. There were also many references to ‘samaadaana siila’, the undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we are not yet sotapannas. If we just follow any precepts and think that they will bring good results, it’s the same as in other religions when various rules are followed. It has no meaning in such a case. It was stressed that it doesn’t matter on what day or at what time there is the abstaining from unwholesome deeds or speech. The development of kusala now is more important than intending to keep any precepts in future, but feeling badly about doing so, or having frivolous talk, for example, while we attempt to follow them. As Chris mentioned we also discussed the more likely benefit of wisely considering the following 8 precepts which she quoted: >Four types of Right Speech: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." -- SN XLV.8 Three types of Right Action: "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." -- SN XLV 8 And Right Livelihood: "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood." - - SN XLV.8< ***** If we’re honest, how many kinds of sila do we follow without fail? Do we keep even the five precepts perfectly in all circumstances? If we are merely undertaking any precepts but without any understanding or other kusala cittas, what’s the use? It’s not ‘natural’ behaviour. An example was given of Thai school children who just repeat the undertaking (samaadaana siila) by rote memory. However, even a child may genuinely be determined not to hurt insects or animals or to see the harm in telling lies and to then really follow the good resolutions. Some of us may recall having had such spontaneous wholesome resolutions as children which we followed as a result of being inspired by something we saw or heard, rather than just repeating words or copying actions. It’s therefore not necessary to ask a monk, to tell anyone or to repeat any words. The samadana sila is quite different from merely reciting precepts or observing them when we visit a temple or on a moon day, for example. In the Buddha’s time, lay people didn’t just follow or recite the 5 precepts. There was no ritual involved. Instead they would take refuge in the Triple Gem with understanding which means they would abstain naturally, not following formalities. With the growth of wisdom and confidence in the Triple Gem, we will also inevitably follow this course by ‘sankhara dhammas’, according to conditions. In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: *** “Bhikkhus, for the most part beings have this wish, desire, and longing: ‘if only unwished for, undesired, disagreeable things would diminish and wished for, desired, agreeable things would increase!’ Yet although beings have this wish, desire, and longing, unwished for, undesired, disagreeable things increase for them and wished for, desired, agreeable things diminish.” We then read about the reasons. The ‘untaught ordinary person’ doesn’t know what should and should not be cultivated, followed and so on. The ‘well-taught noble disciple’ knows of course. It then refers to the four ways of right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana). Firstly the ignorant worldling undertakes what is painful now, such as the various kinds of misconduct with pain and grief and the result is further pain and grief by way of unhappy rebirth. Wrong view is evident. This is like drinking a bitter gourd mixed with poison. The colour, smell and taste are disagreeable and the result is deadly. The second way is like this, except that the undertaking is with pleasure and joy. The result is the same, however. This is like drinking a pleasant beverage mixed with poison. The taste is agreeable, but the result again is deadly. The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing grief and pain as a result!! However, the abstention is with right view and the results are favourable ones. This is like drinking fermented urine mixed with medicines for jaundice. The colour, taste and semell are disagreeable, but apparently the result is good! The fourth way is the same as this, except that the abstentions are undertaken with joy and pleasure. Again they lead to happy rebirths. This is like taking a mixture of curd, honey, ghee and molasses for dystenery. It tastes good and again results in good health. *** In other words, as I understand the sutta, the right and wrong view involved is very important. We may be inclined to point out the large number of rules or precepts which a bhikkhu must follow from the outset. There is, of course, a big difference in this regard between the bhikkhu’s life and the lay life because of the vinaya. A bhikkhu understands the value of the Patimokkha rules if he observes the vinaya. He has the accumulations to be able to lead such a life. If someone has very bad sila, what is the most useful undertaking or thing to do? It is still to development of the understading of dhammas (realities). We cannot get away from dukkha without the wisdom which sees how there are only passing cittas now at each moment, arising and falling in a split second. The same truths apply even at the moments of death or when we’re fast asleep. Without the development of such wisdom, we remain lost in samsara.< ***** I'll be glad to hear any more comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ========= #63883 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > I find it helpful to think of concepts/ideas as a paramattha dhamma. > Concepts/ideas are what we cling on to strongly and I see no reason > why the Buddha should exclude it from his teachings on anicca, dukkha > and anatta. > > The Pali word for 'ideas' as translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is just > 'dhamma', without any qualification made by the Buddha. I also > understand that concepts/ideas is called 'pannatti dhammas' by K. > Sujin. .... S: Let's just stick to the Pali terms for now. Dhamma usually refer to realities, to paramattha dhammas in the texts. In some contexts however, they also include pannatti (concepts) so we need to check the context. If the text is referring to the ayatanas (as in MN 148 which you quoted), then only paramattha dhammas are being referred to. Now you say you find it helpful to consider concepts/ideas as paramattha dhammas because we cling to them and they are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Let me assume you are referring to pannatti. Pannatti (by definition) cannot be paramattha dhammas. By definition they are concepts or ideas a) either about realities (paramattha dhammas) or b)about non-realities, or about c) a combination of a) and b). (Lots of detail under 'Concepts' and 'Concepts and Realities' in U.P.) Let's take a very abstract idea or concept as an example. Let's take the term 'artistic' as it relates to some current threads. Now, I think you'll agree that being or not being artistic or thinking about artistic is a conceptual idea. Still, we can cling to the idea, we can cling to the notion of someone being artistic or to works being artistic. Does it ever exist? No, only as an idea. Does it arise and fall away? Is it dukkha? Is it anatta? No, only the thinking in this particular way arises and falls away etc. There is no 'artistic' to have these characteristics. .... > > > If the answer is yes and satipatthana can't take on a concept, how > > > then is the release of clinging on to concepts to be discerned? > > .... > > S: By directly understanding and being aware of the clinging when it > > appears. Clinging is clinging regardless of the object of clinging. > > It doesn't matter whether it's clinging to a cat, a computer, a pink > > elephant or having more awareness. > > Clinging can cling to anything except nibbana and the lokuttara > > cittas. > > Without realizing the anicca, dukkha and anatta nature of a paramattha > dhamma, can the release of clinging be discerned? .... S: No. That's why paramattha dhammas have to be clearly known, starting with the clear knowledge of what is a paramattha dhamma and what is the distinction between namas and rupas. While we take concepts (pannatti) for realities (paramattha dhammas), there can be no beginning of satipatthana. .... >Is it not possible > for a deluded person to think that although the clinging is anicca, > dukkha and anatta, yet the object that is clung to is eternal and > unchanging (think of the pure Buddha citta or luminous mind being good > and splendid along some Mahayanist school of thought)? .... S: Yes, concepts are taken for realities. Here it's the concept of the pure Buddha citta. Insight cannot be developed in this way. .... > > If the above is true for paramattha dhammas, how much so it is for > concepts/ideas! > > > Ideas - say that of a computer or a pink elephant never exist. The > > thinking of such arises and falls and has a concept as object. > > If concepts/ideas are not paramattha dhammas, how can it be said that > thinking has concepts/ideas as its object? .... S: By aramanna paccaya, concepts (as well as dhammas) can be taken as object. I think it's very easy to prove it at this moment. Now there is thinking about the words we read. The thinking is real, the words are ideas/concepts. There can be awareness of the thinking at such times, or of the joy or frustration or of the seeing or visible object. The words or ideas can only be thought about, however. .... > > Something that does not exist cannot be said to be the object of > thinking. It simply doesn't exist! ... S: Thinking can think about the real or unreal. What about 'artistic' or 'pink elephant'? Are you sure we can't think about them? ... > > Including concepts/ideas as paramattha dhammas solves the dilemma for > me. It brings sanity back to the Dhamma as it is expounded by the > Buddha in various suttas on the six sense bases. .... S: I think all the questions you raise here are very good and important ones. I can see the appeal of not distinguishing between concepts/ideas and paramattha dhammas. It's what we're used to. However, I don't believe it (the lack of distinguishing) is what the Buddha expounded in the suttas like those on the ayatanas. I think these suttas are misunderstood, partly due to the translations. Also, if we carry on as usual, taking computers, trees and people for being real, what's the purpose of the Teaching? How is it any deeper than any other teaching? Metta, Sarah ======= #63884 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > It would depend on the bhikkhu wouldn't it? ;-) But no, of course > not, wise as a bhikkhu is wise disrobed wouldn't you say? As with > anything, disrobing, or "robing" for that matter, is a > complexly-conditioned event which can just as easily condition > wholesomeness as it might unwholesomeness I suppose. ... S: Yes, I don't think we can set any general rules in this regard. .... > > S: "Did you meet the teacher mentioned before (talking of bhikkhus)? > Were we going to have a report from the perspective of 'finding a > teacher'?" > > I did, and will again mid-week, but had asked earlier for some > clarification regarding what one can report about such things while > maintaining proper respect for the monk. Any guidelines before I > proceed? With that I'll report. ... S: I think you can certainly report anything from the aspect of the teaching/guidance/dhamma discussion you were given. Also, any background info such as where the monk is from, where you met and so on. Also, of course, any of your reflections on the teaching/discussion. I'm sure you'll have no problem and I'll look forward to your account. Metta, Sarah ======== #63885 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 2:34 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard and Swee Boon, ----------------------- KH: > What if the conditions for panna's > arising were in place? Wouldn't it arise then? > > Howard: > Why should the conditions get to be in place? --------------------------- Either they are or they aren't. I'm not concerned either way. ------------------------------------- H: > As I recently mentioned, there is far more akusala than kusala. Why would you expect the requisite conditions getting to be in place as anything other than far less likely than their not getting to be in place. ------------------------------------- I wouldn't! I agree the conditions for kusala citta with panna are far less common than the conditions for kusala citta without panna, and far less common again than for akusala cittas. ----------------------------------------- H: > And how is merely hoping that the conditions magically do get to be in place anything more than wishful thinking and depending on "dumb luck"? ----------------------------------------- I don't hope for insight to arise, and I have never said that I do. (Well, not in recent years.) Swee Boon claims I "assume" insight will arise, but I have never said that either. :-) ---------------------- H: > To me, that is a kind of magical thinking that dismisses the reality of conditionality and is close to a reliance on the rite and ritual of repetitively reciting "when conditions are in place ... when conditions are in place." ---------------------- I do say that a lot, but not in the hope of creating insight. ------------------------------------- H: > Ken, much that you do in your life, many of the conventional events (such as eating when hungry and drinking when thirsty) occur because "you" intentionally act to bring them about. ------------------------------------- I am not so sure about that. If I climbed Mt Everest you would say it was because I intentionally brought that feat about. If I fell just short of the summit would you say it was from lack of intention? Another example: I am currently a few kilograms overweight - my intention is to eat less, but still I eat as much as ever. 'The best laid plans (intentions) of mice and men gang aft agley.' :-) ------------------------ H: > You intentionally engage in specific activities to achieve specific purposes. ------------------------- That is conventional wisdom. My usual answer is, "We don't need a Buddha to tell us conventional wisdom!" but I haven't had much success with that answer. :-) Suffice it to say that conventional wisdom is not real wisdom. --------------------------------- H: > (Underlying all that, the reality, is, I quite agree, namas and rupas. But so what?) --------------------------------- So: in the real world there is no Mt Everest! All the climbing practice and motivational training that people engage in is to no avail in the real world. What actually exists is the presently arisen namas and rupas. That is what I am trying to get across to Swee Boon. Since there are only these dhammas, and since there is no possibility of controlling them, the Buddha's teaching can only be descriptive. It can never be prescriptive. The Buddha described the various conditioned namas and rupas so that we could know them directly. He did not instruct us, as sentient beings, to go out into the conventionally real world and perform certain specified conventional activities (rituals). ---------------------------------------- H: > Now, as regards your eating and drinking, can you simply skip those conventional activities that are indeed accompanied by striving and sense of self, and let it suffice for you to merely say "When the conditions are in place, physical life force will increase"? ---------------------------------------- When the conditions are in place for cetana (and most probably lobha) to be accompanied by thoughts of eating that is what will occur. I am trying to remember how Sukin explained this recently. I think he might have said that those cetasikas would manifest as the concept of a person eating. ---------------------------- <. . .> H: > It is exactly the realities underlying the conventional actions of (merely seeming) sentient beings that are among the conditions most required to "be in place"! That, Ken, is exactly what you are missing. By your (IMO) misapplied dedication to the (quite correct) idea of impersonal conditions, you are ignoring, in fact dismissing, the most essential of all the conditions. ----------------------------- I agree it is the underlying realities that are important. However, I do not agree that they depend for their existence on particular conventional activities. Path-consciousness, for example, can arise while one is committing suicide - surely you wouldn't call suicide a means to enlightenment! ----------------------------------------------------- KH: > > What would we need to do - rescue the conditioned dhammas? Since they disappear forever almost as soon as they have appeared - in what way could they be rescued? > > H: > That would be a "closing the barn door after the horse has escaped" scenario. Nobody I know suggests that. What the Buddha urged was taking conventional actions the underlying realities of which will put into play (future) useful, kusala, sequences of events. ----------------------------------------------------- No, the past no longer exists and the future has never existed. I think you will find the Buddha urged the right understanding of each "presently arisen state." -------------------------------------- H: > You see, Ken, ignoring for the moment what is the *actual* nature is of conventional actions by persons, you can and do engage in them. You do so all the time. By refusing to engage in those particular ones urged by the Buddha, you are thereby preventing the arising of critical conditions for progress and are sabotaging Dhamma practice. -------------------------------------- You insist that the Buddha urged us to take conventional actions. The texts, on the other hand, insist the Buddha urged something profoundly different. He urged the arising of a number of conditioned dhammas - right understanding, right thought, right speech (etc). -------------------------------- KH: > > Let me put the question another way: Can anything change, or control, the presently arisen paramattha dhammas? > > H: > No! That is a non-issue. --------------------------------- Thank you for your answer. Now to get one out of Swee Boon! :-) Ken H #63886 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Han: Yes, who are we to question the knowledge of the > Buddha? > But at the same time, there were many women arahants > in the literature, who were worthy of worship, like > Theri Dhammadinna. Even her ex-husband Visakha, who > was already an Anaagami, had to bow down to her. ... S: Yes. When it comes to the following of the path, it doesn't distinguish between men and women. Panna doesn't belong to a man or a woman. Of course, all the tales about foolish men and women don't refer to those who did follow the path. .... >As > Nina has written in (#36635), it is true that it is a > weaker vipaka to be born a woman, but women can become > arahats. > > After all, my mother was a woman! .... S: Yes, and who knows next life or last life what sex we were? Thank you for your additional comments. It's been an interesting thread, thanks to Sof Metta, Sarah ===== #63887 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- dacostacharles wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to start a thread describing the Mind. From its components > (including their functions and interactions) to the Minds responces > to different stimuli. And yes I know this is a tall order. ... S: So let's start at the beginning. What do you understand by Mind? Metta, Sarah p.s Did you see Ven Samahita's note in which he mentioned that he also comes from Denmark originally? ============================= #63888 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'As Tears Go By'......(was:Born with pa~n~na.) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, I don't think I ever replied to the following interesting comments you made: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the reply. This struck me in particular: > > S: "I think it helps a lot to understand the thinking as being real > and the conversations, stories and dreams as being merely conceptual, > merely > imaginary. At moments of awareness, the story is cut momentarily, the > dhammas are known for what they are. Then, back to the stories, on and > on and on." > > The thinking is real. The content is imaginary. It that a fair > paraphrase? .... S: Yes, as long as by 'content' you are referring to that which is thought about, rather than the nature of thinking itself. .... > > Let me try this mundane example: At times, during a psychotherapy > session (sorry to use this particular example, its just that this is > common to me) I find, suddenly, that I had been caught up in a fantasy > of some sort. At this moment the fantasy stops having itself and it > becomes an object of recollection. I find I can go over it in my head > and begin to scour it for meaning. > > In other words, first there is thinking without mundane awareness; > then awareness of thinking which stops the train of that particular > line of thought; then more thinking. .... S: Yes, thinking about the fantasy, then thinking about the thinking, then more thinking about the meaning of the fantasy. Really, it's all thinking about various fantasies and ideas, regardless of the 'content'. It's not a question of no longer thinking or even fantasising of course, but awareness can be aware of the reality (thinking, feeling, seeing, visible object or any other dhamma) at any time whilst thinking in such a way. (Strictly speaking, different moments of course). .... > > I'm not sure what one would call that interstitial moment which arises > which is aware of being immersed in a day-dream. ... S: I think it's a kind of conventional awareness most the time - a thinking about the thinking and day-dreaming, a kind of 'pulling oneself up'. Again, even at such times there can be sati with panna which directly knows such thinking or any other dhamma for what it is. No need to analyse what's gone already - that's just more and more thinking about the past:-) What about now? Thinking or direct awareness? Metta, Sarah ======== #63889 From: s.billard@... Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina : translation of your books in french ? sbillard2000 Hi Sarah > I remember that you run a French website and I'm sure she'll be happy to > see your interest in making ADL available. I have an idea it may already > be translated into French, but Nina will clarify. I know it's been > translated into German and Thai. Oh you have a good memory :) yes I am back. I did put my subscription to DSG on "web only" mode as the list was a bit too much active for me and the information discussed here was of an high level. But I decided to come back as there is no equivalent to DSG in french : forums here are often superficial, and too much mixed with Mahayana or even new-age discussions, and Abhidhamma matters are never discussed... That would be very nice if some Nina's work was already available in french, as the only Abhiddhamma material I was able to find in french was short intriductions. Sébastien http://s.billard.free.fr #63890 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 4:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pacittiya 37 sarahprocter... Hi Rahula, Did you get an answer to your question as I don't recall seeing one? --- rahula_80 wrote: > Pacittiya 37: > > Should any bhikkhu chew or consume staple or non-staple food at the > wrong time, it is to be confessed. > > BMC by Thanissaro Bhikkhu roughly gave the stories behind each rule. > However, there were no stories for this rule. Anybody knows the > origin story why this rule come about? .... S: There was already a 'right' time and a 'wrong' time A group of 17 bhikkhus went to see a festival on a mountain in Rajagaha. People offered them food which the bhikkhus took and brought back to the monastery to share. Other bhikkhus criticised them for eating at the 'wrong' time and it was reported to the Buddha. The Buddha rebuked them and laid down the rule. 'The wrong time' refers to from after noon until sunrise. .... > > Latukikopama Sutta (MN 66) shows that at first, monks are allowed to > eat the whole day. Then, the Buddha stop the afternoon meal, latter > the dinner. > > This sutta suggest one of their benefits was that they prevented > bhikkhus from going for alms in the dark. > > However, if this is the sole reason, I don't see why the afternoon > and dinner meal has to be stopped. Monks would have gone out for > alms before dark for their dinner. > > Logically thinking, I believe the reason for this rule is to avoid > misperception that monks eats all day, from alms, without working > for it. But, I am more interested in the textual reason. .... S: I think there are also many references to the harm of over-eating leading to sloth and indolence and lack of energy generally for living the Holy Life. If the bhikkhus are thinking too much about food and eating too often, they are not performing their duties as bhikkhus. Hence all the rules about not going into villages at the wrong times, only eating one meal in a public rest-house and so on. Some good reminders for us too, perhaps! Please let me know if you considered further or if anyone else has more to add. Metta, Sarah ======= #63891 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 5:47 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 537- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd When one begins to develop insight one cannot expect to have purity of morality immediately. We are still full of attachment, aversion and ignorance, and these unwholesome roots can condition wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. Only the sotåpanna has no more conditions to commit akusala kamma which can lead to an unhappy rebirth. We should have determination to develop right understanding of whatever reality appears. When we become angry and utter harsh speech there can be moments of awareness of nåma and rúpa in between the moments of anger. Also anger should be known as it is, as only a type of nåma which is conditioned, not “my anger”, otherwise it can never be eradicated. We find the unpleasant feeling which accompanies anger very disagreeable and we may have desire for just calm. Then there is clinging again. Also the subtle desire for calm should be known as it is. We should consider what our aim is: only calm, or right understanding of whatever reality appears. We may think that it is too difficult to develop understanding of whatever reality appears, we want to delay it when we are tired, depressed or in an angry mood. However, if there is no beginning of the development of right understanding, even at those moments we consider unfavourable, it will always be difficult. If one perseveres in developing understanding of the present moment, understanding can grow. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63892 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? jonoabb Hi Swee Boon (and Plamen) nidive wrote: >>>The Buddha said depending on the corresponding external medium and >>>the corresponding internal medium, there arises the corresponding >>>consciousness. As such, the internal intellect medium cannot be >>>referring to "all kinds of consciousness". It doesn't make sense. >>> >>> >>I'd like to follow this through further with you. Perhaps we should >>look at a specific text. Do you have one in mind? >> >> Thanks for the sutta reference from MN 148 Chachaka Sutta (Six Sets of Six). Your comment that "The Buddha said depending on the corresponding external medium and the corresponding internal medium, there arises the corresponding consciousness" is based I think on the the paragraph dealing with the third set of sixes. However, in that paragraph the Buddha does not actually mention internal and external ayatanas (even thought these are the subject of the first 2 sets of sixes), but instead talks about eye and forms, ear and sound, etc. Now although these dhammas are the same dhammas that are referred to in the classification by way of ayatanas, I don't think we can substitute reference to the ayatanas for the dhammas themselves in this context. This is the same issue as I'm discussing with Plamen in another thread, where he seeks to substitute "indriya" for "ayatana". CMA explains manayatana as being "the aggregate of consciousness in its totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta" (see full extract at end of this message). >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > >... >"'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. >In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there >arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there >arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there >arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors >there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & >tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent >on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. >'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. >And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet. >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>As regards the 'rupa' part, Vism has more at the reference just >>given (see Ch XVII, 186 - 202 of the Nanamoli translation), which >>I need to study in more detail before I can summarise. However, >>it's obvious I think that rupa cannot refer to *all* instances of >>the four great elements etc because that would include inanimate >>objects such as rocks, etc, so it's a matter of how far the sutta >>reference is to be read down. >> > >I take form to include both form internal to the body and external to >the body. However, in the dependency of "name-&-form depends on >consciousness", form obviously refers only to form internal to the >body. > > Yes, 'rupa' has different meanings depending on its context. Referring again to CMA, in the section dealing with the 3rd link of DO (Ch VIII, #3 Guide): << << << Vinnana signifies resultant consciousness and the kammic consciousnesses of previous lives. The term "mind" (nama) denotes the cetasikas associated with resultant consciousness, the term "matter" (rupa) denotes material phenomena produced by kamma. ... >> >> >> So in this context 'rupa' has a more limited meaning. Jon From "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", Ch VII 'Compendium of Categories, section on 'Compendium of the Whole', #36 'The Twelve Sense Bases' and its Guide: << << << The twelve sense bases offer another perspective on the whole. From this perspective the totality of concrete entities is viewed by way of the doors and objects of consciousness. Bases (1)-(5) are identical with the five kinds of sensitive material phenomena and bases (7)-(11) with the five kinds of objective material phenomena. The mind base at (6), however, has a wider range than the mind door. It is identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental-object base does not completely coincide with mental object (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases, the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since the notion of base (ayatana) extends only to ultimate realities, i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhava), and does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors, the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana. >> >> >> [Thanks to Larry for previously posting most of this text] #63893 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ditthi (Jon) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: >>However, wrong view is particularly pernicious because by >>definition it involves the idea that it is right >>(otherwise it wouldn't be a *view*). >> > > Well, still not clear on this because when I'm listening sometimes >it seems wrong view is not a *view* per se but just a failure to >understand dhammas. > I'd be surprised if this is actually said. Of course, failure to understand dhammas could go hand in hand with (be symptomatic of) wrong view. >But I guess it is a *view* if we see people, >think there are people, for example? Obviously this is what we are >doing 99.99% of the time, or whatever, so do we have wrong view >99.99% of the time or whatever? I think you will answer below. > > > >>Wrong view is the held belief that things are other than they >>truly are. So the (mere) failure to see things as they >>truly are is not wrong view. >> > > Ph: Ok, above question answered. But still left with a sense that >I sometimes hear otherwise. That's not a problem. I'll keep >listening. Having everything fall together and make perfect sense >would be a sign of wanting to have everything fall together and make >perfect sense - and having it that way by the wanting. I appreciate >a certain confusion. > ;-)), ;-)) >>Of the sanna vipallassas, only those that perceive the impermanent >>as permanent and the not-self as self are eradicated at >>stream-entry (along with wrong view). >> >>Those that perceive the perceive the impure as pure and the painful >>as pleasant remain and are not eradicated until later stages. >> > > Ph: Cool! Thanks. Could you tell me the pali names of the >vipallassas again. > From Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vipallaasa.htm): * vipallÄ?sa 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either: * of perception (saññÄ?-vipallÄ?sa), * of consciousness (citta v.) *or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard: *what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; * what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); *what is without a self (anattÄ?) as a self; *what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' >Also, what is the opposite of vipallassas, when >theing are perceived "correctly" if you will. "vi-" is a prefix >meaning "not", right. So is is "pallassa?" Nah, just panna I guess. > I don't know of any 'opposite' Panna sounds good. > Thanks. Talk to you again next week. This is a subject that just >needs to soak in gradually and will for years. Can't be crammed or >understood by trying harder to understand it - in my lazy opinion, >maybe. > Just as and when is fine with me. Jon #63894 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right On !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Sarah asked: > 1: The Body as an Accumulation... > 2: The Feeling as a Sensation... > 3: The Mind as a Mood... > 4: The Phenomenon as a Mental State.. S: >>1: Do you see these as referring to dhammas as objects of clear comprehension (sati-sampajanna)? A1: yes indeed >2:If so, what dhammas do you see them as referring to? >2:Would you also mind clarifying what you mean above by the terms. 1 is referring to all form as something heaped together. 2 is referring to all feeling as something created by contact. 3 is referring to all mentality as something conditioned by circumstances. 4 is referring to all phenomena as something partly created by mind. When seeing that one understands that they all must pass away as they are emerged in dependence on something transient... When seeing that one looses gradually lust for these vanishing objects. Why so? They cannot ever be kept and spontaneously decays & is lost... This is what is means by: "he thereby removes any urge, envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent" -- vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita #63895 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas jonoabb Hi Plamen Thanks for explaining your thinking regarding treating the ayatanas as indriyas. Plamen Gradinarov wrote: >Dear Jon, > > >>I'm a little confused as to why you are bringing the indriyas into a >>discussion on the ayatanas (unless I have misunderstood). >> > >Because the ayatanas are the 12 sense-bases. > >What is caksu? - The visual sense-organ (bahya indriya). > >What is srotra? - The audial sense organ (bahya indriya). > >What is ghrana? - The olfactory sense-organ (bahya indriya). > >What is jihva? - The gustatory sense-organ (bahya indriya). > >What is tvak (kaya)? - The tactile sense-organ (bahya indriya). > >What is manas? - The internal sense-organ (antah indriya). > >What is rupa? - The object of the visual sense organ. > >What is sabda? - The object of the audial sense-organ. > >What is gandha? - The object of the olfactory sense-organ. > >What is rasa? - The object of the gustatory sense-organ. > >What is sparsa? - The object of the tactile sense-organ. > >What is dharma? - The object of the internal sense-organ. > I believe I've already explained why in my view we cannot just substitute 'indriya' for 'ayatana', even though it may be the same dhamma involved in both cases. So I won't repeat myself here. But what you've said on this still doesn't explain how you arrive at the figures of 10 for external and 2 for internal. So could I ask you how you see these terms applying, in other words, external or internal to what? Thanks. >The 12 ayatanas represent the sense-organs and their corresponding >objects. > Not quite, according to the texts I have consulted. The sixth internal ayatana is all kinds of consciousness, and the sixth external ayatana does not include concepts. The 12 ayatanas are explained in Vism and CMA as being a way of classifying all dhammas. I have given CMA references for both these points in a post just sent to Swee Boon (addressed to you also). Jon #63896 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 10/2/06 12:52:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, James - > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > This is one of my favorite films, James, and, yes, it is a > clear > >allegory of samsara and the escape from samsara. A delightful > film! BTW, if you > >haven't seen The Truman Show, please do see that film as well. The > symbolism is > >similar, and also extremely clever and subtle IMO. I think it is > brilliant. (I > >would love sometime to view it again and discuss elements of it > with you, and > >others here of course as well. > > James: Sure, I have seen that movie a couple of times and enjoyed > it. However, I don't see the Buddhist symbolism as clearly as you > do. Perhaps you could elucidate it for me? ------------------------------------------ Howard: There is so much (I believe), but it has been quite a while since it came out. I intend to get out the DVD, rewatch it taking notes, and then I'll write you. (This may take a while - our older son and Dallas family is coming here this Tuesday for a week, and the coming Sunday my younger son is getting married, so it's very hectic now.) ----------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > There is not just the conventional rebirth from lifetime to > lifetime, > >but also the perpetual rebirth of sense of self and of grasping. > There is the > >ongoing rebirth of the sense of me and mine. From a non- > annihilationist > >perspective, I think that purifying the mind here and now > and "stopping the cycle" > >may come down to pretty much the same thing. > > James: Yes, of course they are the same thing. What I was wondering > is which should be the motivating factor? So that one approaches > the dhamma with wisdom, what should be the motivation? Personally, > my motivation has predominately been to purify the mind. I don't > know about my past lives and past suffering, I am just aware of my > current suffering. However, perhaps that is the wrong motivation. > After all, what motivated the Buddha to seek the truth was to end > the cycle of rebirth (he saw the old, sick, and dead which motivated > him; he wasn't motivated by the anger, greed, and delusion of his > own mind.); however, Sariputta described nibbana as the ceasing of > the defilements. You see, it is described in those two different > ways through out the texts. Perhaps this is important and perhaps > it is a non-issue, like I said I am just thinking out loud. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't recall ever having separated the unsatisfactoriness and the impurity of mind in my thinking. I have great difficulty even subtly distingishing them, and so it is very hard to say which nuance predominated in the motivation for my following the Dhamma and Dhammic practice. In fact, preoccupation with "spiritual pursuit" seems to have been with me all my life, more as something that was "part of me" than as something motivated by a specific goal. --------------------------------------------- > > Let's say that "living in" samsara > >consists of a rat race on a wheel, and the realization of nibbana > is the > >stepping off that wheel to the freedom that already is a reality. > If we think that > >being on the wheel is "existence" and being off is "non- > existence", that is > >both a substantialist and nihilist perspective, an embracing of > two extremes. > >If, on the other hand, we think of being on the wheel as simply > unnecessary > >obsessive and compulsive and ignorant lunacy, and the stepping off > as the > >relinquishment of a self-imposed torture, it is another matter > entirely. > > James: This seems to be a combination of the two themes (cessation > of rebirth and purification of the mind), but this analogy doesn't > quite do it for me- I think it is too complicated for my little > brain. ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Hah! ;-)) The analogy may have no appeal for you. That, of course, is quite possible. The "little brain" business is just silly, IMO. ------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Interesting, isn't it? On the face of it, such an > experience seems to > >be a "downer" and just the sort of "unpleasant" thing folks wish > to avoid. But > >the facts are that it is a critically important event, and > wonderfully > >deservant of celebration at its occurrence. > > James: In my personal experience, samvega is a downer. It is not > pleasant at all to realize the futility and meaninglessness of > life. However, pasada (knowing that there is a solution) is the > reason to celebrate. > > >-------------------------------------- > > > >> > >>However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a > form > >>a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > >>here. Comments would be appreciated. > > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't think of the ending of samsara as the end of > experience in eve > >ry possible sense. Primarily, I think of it as the ending of any > felt need for > >there to be or not be experience of any particular sort, or for > experience in > >general or its absence. It is the awakening from a dream of > slavery and > >illusion to a realization of freedom and wisdom. I think of > someone who has been > >pedaling a bicycle with the gears fixed at the lowest setting so > as to require > >enormous struggle in the pedaling, and who then releases the gears > entirely, > >and with the most delightful ease simply coasts freely. > > James: Nice analogy. This one is simple enough for me to > understand. ;-)) So, it seems that you are in the "purifying the > mind" camp and care little about the result in rebirth or not. I am > also in that camp, but I am wondering if I should switch camps. ;-)) -------------------------------------- Howard: You think the food is better over there? LOL! ------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------- > > > >> > >>Metta, > >>James > >>Ps. I hope that this post isn't as stupid as my art one. ;-)) > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > You are addressing only the very most important matter > there is! How > >in the world could that be stupid? :-) > > James: The matter isn't stupid, but the way I address it could be. > However, seeing from the depth of your response, this post probably > isn't that stupid. ;-)) > > > >===================== > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, > James > ========================== With metta, Howard #63897 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/2/06 5:34:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > No, the past no longer exists and the future has never existed. I > think you will find the Buddha urged the right understanding of each > "presently arisen state." > ======================== Why urge an action that cannot be intentionally done? If it happens, it happens. If no, not. What is the point of urging? With metta, Howard #63898 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 8:13 am Subject: Renewed Understanding of MN 148 Chachakka Sutta nidive Hi Jon & Sarah, > << << << > The twelve sense bases offer another perspective on the whole. From > this perspective the totality of concrete entities is viewed by way > of the doors and objects of consciousness. Bases (1)-(5) are > identical with the five kinds of sensitive material phenomena and > bases (7)-(11) with the five kinds of objective material phenomena. > The mind base at (6), however, has a wider range than the mind door. > It is identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its > totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental- > object base does not completely coincide with mental object > (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among > the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases, > the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical > with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since > the notion of base (ayatana) extends only to ultimate realities, > i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhava), and > does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual > construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental > factors, the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana. > >> >> >> After reading this passage, the idea struck me that the internal intellect medium is not to be understood as cittas or cetasikas, but rather as just old kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------------- And it is from these six old kamma that makes possible the arising of new kamma. How so? Example: Internal Intellect + External Idea -> Consciousness Internal Intellect && External Idea && Consciousness == Contact Contact -> Feeling Feeling -> Craving that makes for further becoming (ie. new kamma) The last part of { feeling -> craving } is expanded upon in The Ball of Honey sutta. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html "When there is the intellect, when there are ideas, when there is intellect-consciousness, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of contact. When there is a delineation of contact, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When there is a delineation of feeling, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of perception. When there is a delineation of perception, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of thinking. When there is a delineation of thinking, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the perceptions & categories of complication. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thus this is how there comes to be new kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------------- And how there comes to be no arising of new kamma? -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html "Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, by the way, I still maintain that the external dhamma-ayatana consists of ideas. > The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors, > the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana. The external dhamma-ayatana cannot comprise the fifty-two cetasikas since these are factors (contact, feeling, perception, thinking) that appear after the meeting of the intellect (old kamma), idea and intellect consciousness. As for the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, the Buddha never spoke about them in the suttas as far as I know. And lastly, it can't include nibbana since nibbana is not said to arise and fall away (I think Bhikkhu Bodhi (is he the one who wrote CMA?) is way off here from the Buddha, sad to say). Regards, Swee Boon #63899 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 8:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Howard (& Ken H), > > No, the past no longer exists and the future has never existed. I > > think you will find the Buddha urged the right understanding of > > each "presently arisen state." > > > Why urge an action that cannot be intentionally done? If it happens, > it happens. If no, not. What is the point of urging? LOL! Regards, Swee Boon #63900 From: Daniel Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 10:24 am Subject: Re: self sbhtkk hi Charles, Charles : >Hi Daniel, >Most schools of Tibetan Buddhism emphasize a graded path for mastering >Buddhist philosophy. One of the reasons for this is the wealth of >information can be confusing and misleading. This is especially true when >studying Tibetan Buddhist's philosophy. Yes, I know about it... But it is quite hard to know what to start from. daniel #63901 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 12:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas pgradinarov Dear Jon, > >The 12 ayatanas represent the sense-organs and their corresponding > >objects. > > > > Not quite, according to the texts I have consulted. The sixth internal > ayatana is all kinds of consciousness, and the sixth external ayatana > does not include concepts. I am consulting mainly Dharma-samgraha (sorry ;-), while the link provided by Swee Boon gives a picture described in my second scenario: with the first ayatanas only internal and their objects only external we have all internal rupas out of the gocara of the sense-organs. As for the first 6 ayatanas not being the 6 sense-organs, I would appreciate directing me to sources explaining them as cakkhu- vinnana, etc., and not only as cakkhu, etc. Kindest regards, Plamen #63902 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 8:46 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence dacostacharles Hi Howard, I hear ya! Charles DaCosta PS: All is realitive, everything in this fleating existence. _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 01:04 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/1/06 5:24:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@POST10. TELE.DK writes: > Hi Howard, > You sound like somebody from the Mind-only school! > Charles DaCosta > ========================== Well, there are eddies and streams within vijnanavada that I find to my liking and those that I do not. The notion of storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana), for example, is not at all to my liking, striking me as substantialist and completely unnecessary. But, sure, Vasubandhu is a "good friend" of mine! ;-) With metta, Howard _._,___ #63903 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Ditthi (Jon) philofillet Hi no one in particular This would be no news to anyone here, but thinking about killing can now see that it would be more likely to be rooted in lobha, with wrong view, and not dosa. The dosa (never accompanied by wrong view) would condition the killing, but the actual act would be done with cittas rooted in lobha (usually with wrong view that says, ever so briefly, there's no danger in killing). For example, the mosquito causes dosa because we have so much lobha for whatever kind of comfort the mosquito intereferes with, but at the moment of killing it there is lobha/satsifaction as the little bugger is located and killed, returning us to our comfort zone. (Or so we think....) Obviously, I'm not intending to celebrate killing, just reflecting on the dhammas that are involved in the act. Phil > Ph: What about killing? Surely the citta that propels an act of killing > is rooted in dosa, but there is no ditthi accompanying it? I guess the > ditthi is there, rooted in lobha, but at a different split second > moment apart. Dosa > lobha rooted citta accompanied by wrong view that > says its ok to kill> dosa> dosa > SPLAT!!! Not a thought out process, > just a flash of an impulse that communicates "ok to kill" in a non- > verbal view? (The splat is a mosquito, folks. #63904 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 6:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art philofillet Hi Jon I'm bombarding you a lot these days. Please feel free to let most of what I write drop a now and then pick up a couple of points that the moment tells you are worth carrying on with. > >did in fact teach in order to gently begin to take the pleasure out of > >enjoying art and other sensual pleasures that arise through the six > >doors. > > > > > > Yes, the Buddha warned of the dangers of sensual pleasures, and the need > for them to be given up in the long run, but not of course as something > that 'had to be done' in the first instance. Ph: Note that above I wrote "begin to take the pleasure out of enjoying sensual pleasures" not "begin by taking." There is a movement towards beginning to doubt sensual plasures, beginning to see the edfects in them, the essential dissatisfactoriness of them. Just a beginning, of course, that comes up now and then. Most of the time we plaunge ahead (typo, but I think this "plaunge" is a good word!) and the status quo has its way. I think the general > flavour of the teachings is that the attachment to sense pleasures is > gradually lessened as the path is developed to its higher levels (but > not necessarily so to any marked degree before then) Hmmm. I would disagree with this, though the meaning of "marked" is vague. But marked means noticeable, I guess, so I would disagree. The snse pleasures are now at least tinged with a flavour of distrust that is noticeable, though not enough to eradicate the lobha to any really important degree. So back to wondering what "marked" or "important" would mean. Never mind. For example, a few years of development of guarding the sense doors has resulted in my, automatically and without a moment of thought, cutting off proliferation that arises from looking at all the lovely women here in Japan. It's just become my habit to drop it. At times I don't -I proliferation runs amock at times - but it is definitely a marked habit, and an important habit, one that has been developed by staying open to the Buddha's teaching and reflecting. And as we know, there is no difference between looking at a beautiful painting of a beautiful woman or looking at a "real" woman walking on the street. I tend to proliferate more on the latter, perhaps because of the way "real" women jiggle and sway in such a nice way! > > > ... We are no > >longer wandering through the musuem with our sense doors wide open, > >drinking it all in. Those days are gone, and that's ok. (Well, there > >are many days when we *are* drinking it all in mindlessly but the days > >of celebrating that as something wholesome are gone.) > > > > > > But not gone for good, not truly gone, because the tendency remains. > Perhaps there are still moments of such celebrating that we are not > aware of ;-)) Yes, quite right. But by celebrating I meant openly and explicitly celebrating the full use of the sense doors, the opening of the sense doors as being wholesome and wonderful. For example, I used to think that the philosophy in this song (listen to the chorus about the lemons and limes) was a wise philosphy but now not. http://youtube.com/watch?v=oWcG5sppQjY phil #63905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 8:55 pm Subject: Re: paramis, I am back! nilovg Dear Nitesh, I answer on line dsg now. One topic a day is a lot for this busy list, we better see how it goes. And the subject of samatha and vipassana is closely connected with the paramitas, or paramis. Sarah gave already some suggestions and she gave you the appropriate websites. I also wrote another article about the paramis and this is on Rob K's website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm You like to start with generosity. I quote just part of my article as a start: ***** Nina. Op 3-okt-2006, om 5:10 heeft kanchuu dhakal het volgende geschreven: > I would like to start ip with Ten Parimitas. I would like to have > one topic a day. We can start up from today. Since I dont have > litraturue regarding the concerned topic, any recommended sites > would be very helpful. > > I am even interested in knowing about Samatha and Vipassana! Maybe > we dead one after another slowly. Please help me to clear it up one > after another. > #63906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ditthi (Jon) nilovg Hi Phil, no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta does not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas alternating, such as thinking of your comfort, or wrong view. Nina. Op 3-okt-2006, om 3:26 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > For example, the mosquito causes dosa > because we have so much lobha for whatever kind of comfort the > mosquito > intereferes with, but at the moment of killing it there is > lobha/satsifaction as the little bugger is located and killed, > returning us to our comfort zone. (Or so we think....) #63907 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Re: Ditthi (Jon) philofillet Hi Nina Welcome back! Looking forward to hearing about your trip and discussions you had. Hmmm, I guess you haven't been killing many mosquitoes recently. It sure feels like a very good-feeling citta (ie not dosa) is at work at the very moment. (When it's in the middle of the night and you're being kept from sleeping, work the next day etc.) In any case, this is a good reminder - what our experience tells us is happening is not always what is happening. It is best to study Abhidhamma and understand intellectually what happens. Any seeming discrepancy between what the Abhidhamma teaches and what our experience tells us is going on is due to our accumulated ignorance. So I will take your word on this as an Abhidhamma expert that the act of killing is always done with citta rooted in dosa. Phil > Hi Phil, > no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta does > not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas > alternating, such as thinking of your comfort, or wrong view. > Nina. #63908 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 9:48 pm Subject: Final Knowledge ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to reach the Certainty of Final Knowledge? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these four Foundations of Awareness. What four? The ever calmly reminding awareness of: 1: Body as a mass of disgusting impurities... 2: Feelings as a repeating emotional noise... 3: Mind as a conditioned set of weird moods... 4: Phenomena as mentally baked appearances... while always acutely alert & clearly comprehending, thus removing any envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent rooted in this world... When, Bhikkhus, these four Four Foundations of Awareness have been developed and cultivated, one of two fruits may be expected: Either Final Knowledge in this very life or if there is residual clinging, the exalted state of Non-Return... Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 181] 47 Foundations of Awareness: 36 Final Knowledge.. Details On Four Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63909 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 11:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art leoaive Hi It is also interesting, that Dhammapada is saying about Arahant is staying in village or forest. It does not say that arahant is staying in city. It looks to me it is too ascetical. I mean do not have trees and walk around everywhere inside of city walls. With Metta Leo #63910 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing. nilovg Hi Phil, It is not always easy to know the different cittas since they succeed one another extremely fast. But when killing, citta finds the object undesirable. You can use other means to keep mosquitos away: ethereal oils such as lavender, or citronella helps. Or deet. We use deet when hiking near marshes. You could try these ways, let me know whether it helps. Nina. Op 3-okt-2006, om 7:01 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Any seeming > discrepancy between what the Abhidhamma teaches and what our > experience tells us is going on is due to our accumulated ignorance. #63911 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 1:45 am Subject: Re: killing. philofillet Hi Nina > You can use other means to keep mosquitos away: ethereal oils such as > lavender, or citronella helps. Or deet. We use deet when hiking near > marshes. Thanks. This summer was much better. Last year, even with a screen, they somehow got in. This summer we used lemongrass, which is incredibly effective. If anyone has a problem, use an aromatherapy diffuser with lemongrass and it's almost 100% effective. But in the middle of the night, if there *is* a mosquito, all thoughts of Dhamma go out the door. Kusala hasn't developed to that degree yet, no way. That's ok. Not good, but there is nothing to be done about it by making resolutions. Kusala will develop to that degree, or it won't. I don't kill flies or cockroaches, though. The other day I was teaching some children and there was a fly. I swatted it with a cushion to stun it, then cupped it in my hands as it buzzed and let it out the front door of the school. Of course, I was conceited and thought the kids would think it was a cool thing to do but they just thought I was nuts. Mosquitos are another matter, especially when one is pestering Naomi. "Shikata ga nai" as we say in Japanese, killing them can't be avoided at times, not by me. There is kusala dhamma that prevents me from killing flies and cockroaches, there are conditions for that abstention, but there is not conditionned kusala dhamma that prevents me from killing mosquitoes. That's all there is to it, for now. Of course, this post will add in some very small way to the factors conditioning kusala. Of course I know there is a price to pay for killing mosquitos, but I am not a Buddhist saint (sotapanna etc.) and will not try to imitate one in the belief that by doing so I will become one. The eradication of akusala and cultivation of kusala cannot work that way, it will just result in more attachment. The Buddha's way is to have less attachment, not more attachment. No need for further reply Nina, thanks. You must have so many posts to write! Phil #63912 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Huh? "...understanding and confidence in what the truth is > as at this moment", what does that mean? This sounds like a > platitude to me. .... S: ;-) What I meant was that following the path depends on understanding and other wholesome qualities, not on the outer appearance or lifestyle. Also, we're talking about following the path 'for a moment'. If we think we'd have more understanding if we ordained or lived somewhere else, we are lost in our fantasy world again, forgetting about dhammas which are conditioned already. For example, a sotapanna who has full understanding and confidence in impermanence and in the conditioned nature of dhammas will not commit gross akusala whatever his/her lifestyle. ... > > After all, what happens when a bhikkhu disrobes? Does he then have > less > > wisdom to share? > > James: That would depend on the reason he/she disrobed. .... S: The wisdom is accumulated and may arise regardless of the reason. Just like when he is ordained. No problem if you disagree:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #63913 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 2:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta pgradinarov Dear Howard, > The notion of storehouse consciousness > (alayavijnana), for example, is not at all to my liking, striking me as > substantialist and completely unnecessary. In alayavijnana the Vijnanavadins only revitalized the old-timer bhavanga-citta and made it a regular paramartha-dharma, nothing more. Kindest regards, Plamen #63914 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > ... > > S: I think the important thing to remember is that samvegga is > referring > > to an understanding, a sense of urgency with wisdom, not to any > unpleasant > > thoughts or feelings. > > I disagree with this statement. Samvegga, even though it involves > wisdom, does include unpleasant feelings. .... S: When there's wisdom, surely there can't be any unpleasant feelings at the same time? I'm glad you got a copy of Vism. See refs in Vism on samvegga: 111,95, 1V, 63 and X111, 35 Here's the first one. (The Pali is just added because I was interested to check it): "In one of intelligent temperament[buddhicaritassa] there is frequent occurrence of such states as readiness to be spoken to [sovcassataa], possession of good friends[kalyaa.namittataa], knowledge of the right amount in eating[bhojane matta~n~nutaa], mindfulness and full awareness[satisampaja~n~na.m], devotion to wakefulness[jaagariyaanuyogo], a sense of urgency about things that should inspire a sense of urgency[sa'mvejaniiyesu .thaanesu sa'mvego sa'mviggassa], and wisely directed endeavour[yoniso padhaanan ti evamaadayo]." Metta, Sarah p.s More in U.P. on 'samvegga'. ============== #63915 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art sarahprocter... Hi James (& Jon), A good passage (Udana, Sona chapter, 6 Sona) --- buddhatrue wrote: > If becoming a monk was not a favourable > thing to do, the Buddha wouldn't have formed a community of monks. > Here is a telling sutta passage: > > Responding, "As you say, lord," Ven. Sona chanted all sixteen parts > of the Atthakavagga. The Blessed One, at the conclusion of Ven. > Sona's chanting, was highly pleased [and said], "Good, good, monk. > You have learned the Attakavagga [verses] well, have considered them > well, have borne them well in mind. You have a fine delivery, clear > & faultless, that makes the meaning intelligible. How many Rains [in > the monkhood] do you have?" > "I have one Rains, lord." > "But why did you take so long [to ordain]?" > "For a long time, lord, I have seen the drawbacks in sensual > passions, but the household life is crowded with many duties, many > things to be done." > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Seeing the drawbacks of the world, > knowing the state without acquisitions, > a noble one doesn't delight in evil, > in evil > a pure one doesn't delight. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html#why .... S: I'm looking at the lines with the commentary notes as well out of interest. Sona is said to be chief of the savaka monks who are 'lovely vocalists' - 'one able to render the meaning perceptible (atthassa vi~n~naapaniyaa): one capable of rendering its implicit meaning perceptible.' In other words, he had a lot of wisdom. Although he is middle-aged and has 'a good demeanour' and seemed as though he had been a bhikkhu longer than the others, he's only been ordained for one year. As a householder, even though the path was apparent, he was unable to leave all the householder's 'abundant duties'. Even when there is such a delay, when insight is developed and the sense-desires are seen for what they are, there is a recoiling from them 'as does a drop of water on a lotus-leaf', even as a householder. The commentary goes on to show it is the development of vipassana that is being referred to and nibbana realised 'by means of knowledge associated with the path'. Only after this does Sona beg to take higher ordination. I haven't read the text through from the beginning, but doesn't this support the idea that some householders develop more insight than some bhikkhus? It seems that the Buddha was questioning him because he knew he was one 'fit to experience the bliss of concentration' (jhana? phala samapatti?) also. His household life was not conducive to this. I agree with you, James, that the Buddha encouraged those who were suited to the bhikkhu's life to ordain. But that wasn't everyone, even during his life. Metta, Sarah ======== #63916 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 3:06 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 538- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd One may neglect the precepts because one thinks that they are too difficult to observe. But if one considers the teachings more often and starts to develop understanding, there will be more conditions for remembering what is right and what is wrong in the different situations of one’s daily life. The aim of the development of right understanding is the eradication of wrong view, ignorance and all the other defilements. We cannot be perfect immediately, but we may see the danger of neglecting morality and the benefit of observing it. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63917 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sarahprocter... Hi Sof, Thank you for sharing your good introduction. --- sofgld wrote: > Hi Sara (& Han) > I am sorry I found your mail only today. > I am not a frequent visitor here, as I mentioned in my first mail- a > newbie. ( I started reading Sutta only about six months ago.) My > knowledge is way behind yours(all) and I feel I should come here and > read occasionally articles that is within my reach. .... S: Please just ask any questions anytime as you already did with your interesting first one. Don't worry about posts which seem too difficult. Just start your own threads or read ones that seem 'within reach':-). In the files section, there is a simple Pali glossary which you may like to down-load and keep handy. Also in 'useful posts' in the files, if you scroll down to 'new to the list and new to dhamma', you may find some helpful comments. .... > > I am from down-under, under the name of science, I was carried away > for quite a while from dhamma/religon. I am on five precepts for > nearly a year now. ... S: That's good. Where down-under do you live? Jon originally comes from Adelaide and there are quite a few others here from Qld, Canberra and elsewhere. ... > > Recently, I visited Yangon and Bangkok, and learned this story from a > monk. I was stunned; I couldn't bring myself to believe this, how > could a Devine do such a thing! Then I recollect once the 3rd Buddha > while on alms round found a sow told his disciple that the sow was a > Brahmin before reborn as a chuke and now a sow. .... S: It's interesting that you were told this story as Han also mentioned he used to be told it in Yangon when he was younger. Why not tell us a little more about your trip to Yangon and Bangkok? Were you staying in temples? ... > > I thank the monk for giving me the story, actually he told me all the > names, but the time was limited and my Pali is horrible plus terrible > ;-) Hence I was here( and thanks to Han), I went to two other sites > first, but no go. > > What did I get from this story? Samvega! a big one. > Once someone asked Ajahn Chah about the Arahant, he said, don't ask > about Arahant, Buddhisava or even Buddha...because you suffer whoever > you will be. How true. And what did Ajahn Sumedho say? "Whenever I > think about myself, I suffered!!!" .... S: That's a funny reply and true too! ... > > Once my elder brother and I were having breakfast, at the same time, > he was feeding the dog and said, " you love a dog, you become the > slave of the dog, you love a woman, you become the slave of that > woman, the best thing is, if possible, don't love anyone!" Too late, > he has four children and I have 3 at that time! LOL! .... S: ;-) .... > > My aim ? Dear Sara, I am not greedy, I only want to be a stream winner > in this very life! Please don't laugh, you asked and I answer:-) > In case you don't see me here around, I don't mean to be ungrateful, I > have to leave the raft and carry on. ... S: I like your writing style and humour, so please chip in or let us know how you're doing from time to time. No need to leave any raft til you get to the other side and wanting to get there may slow down the journey:-). Thank you again for your informative post. Metta, Sarah ======= #63918 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (Swee Boon & Howard & other Qlders), --- ken_aitch wrote: > S: > A good discussion on the control of dosa! > ------------------ > > Thanks, but I think Swee Boon and I have reached a standoff. Either > dosa can be controlled (in the ultimate sense) or it can't. The entire > Dhamma depends on the answer. Of course, the same could be said for > many other questions. For example, you and Swee Boon (among others) > are currently asking, "Do ideas arise and fall away (in the ultimate > sense)?" Ven. Thanissaro and the Access to Insight people would have > us believe they do. The fate of the Dhamma depends on your decision! > > Well, maybe it's not as dramatic as that, but you know what I mean. :-) ... S: lol - does sound a bit dramatic! Meanwhile, Swee Boon and I (& Jon) are having some useful discussions too, I think. He's included many sutta quotes which is helpful. ..... > > ------------------------- > KH: > > The conditions for the dhammas of the present five > > khandhas were contained in the dhammas of the immediately preceding > > five khandhas, > .... > S: Yes and of course also in long past dhammas > ------------------------- > > Also? Aren't there are only the presently arisen dhammas! At the time > of the immediately preceding dhammas, weren't there only the > then-presently-arisen dhammas? :-) .... S: Well, yes, I understand your point. Of course without the preceding citta, there couldn't be the present citta (by anantara paccaya). However, when we refer to kamma paccaya and pakatupanissaya paccaya, for example, we are referring to the conditioning effect of dhammas that may have been long, long, long ago in the past (as you know). I accept your point that the 'force' or 'power' of such has to be 'carried' in the previous citta. .... > > ------------------------- > S: > , the accompanying dhammas > and the present object which may be any kind of concept too. (You > clarify all this is your next post as I recall) > ------------------------ > > I think I left concepts out. ... S: Also, other present objects, i.e paramattha dhammas. Also, other presently arising dhammas which support the present citta and cetasikas (mutuality, support conditions and so on). In other words, not all the conditions are past conditions. ... >As I remember, a concept can condition > dhammas by object condition and by natural decisive support condition. > But, as you have explained many times, it is not the concept itself > that does the conditioning. Namas, by taking a concept as their > object, are ultimately responsible for object condition. ... S: Well, yes, object conditon just means the object is experienced by the namas. .... >And the same > namas, by creating that concept, are ultimately responsible for its > NDS conditioning ability. .... S: Yes, it is the experiencing of such concepts that is accumulated. We hear that what we see is a computer enough times and then there is the tendency to think of and call it a computer. Or we have pleasant feeling in the waves or sun enough and accumulate a liking for them. ... > > S: > I like the way you put this. 'Conditioning influence has been > bound up..' A nice change to 'accumulated ' and 'force'. > --------------------- > > Thanks! The conventional world contains some excellent similes for the > way conditions accumulate, doesn' it? A beautiful shady tree, for > example might contain a hollow limb that is liable to fall on anyone > sheltering below. So it is like a kusala citta that contains > accumulations for akusala. And a wet, stormy day contains the all the > meteorological ingredients for a beautiful sunny change. Who knows > which accumulated qualities will have their effects and when? (Not the > Bureau of Meteorology, that's for sure!) :-) .... S: ;-) ... > > ----------------------------------- > KH: > > So, coming back to our original question: where, in all of > this, is there any control over the arising/non-arising, of dosa? > .... > > S: > That's it! Only dhammas arising and falling, performing their > functions, accumulating and so on. Of course, the effect of the > present dhammas now - the wise or unwise attention, the sati and so on > cannot be overestimated either. > --------------------------------------- > > No, it can't, which brings us back to the beginning of the discussion. > Howard mentioned being aware of anger whenever it was noticeably > present. But, as soon as there is any idea of trying, or of directing > sati, the intended object has gone, hasn't it? And a concept has > arisen in its place. Can dhammas possibly be controlled in any way > whatsoever? I hope Swee Boon's will give us his decision soon. .... S: If they could be controlled, I don't think we'd be here having these discussions. Anyway, It's good to read Swee Boon and Howard's considered reflections. ..... > PS: Glad to hear you've settled in again at Big Wave Bay. I imagine > only locals are allowed to use that other name. Or is it a trick to > keep tourists away? .... S: There's one other very remote and beautiful Big Wave Bay. At the weekend there was a picture of it in the paper strewn with dozens and dozens of computers on the beach and in the sea. They were suspected to have been dumped by smugglers. Stay where you are if you don't wish to be wrapped in shrink plastic (oops, just forgot that's just how my head did end up being wrapped (not rapped, Connie) in Coff's Harbour after the staple job to the wound) or knocked out by computers crashing in the waves. ... > > > Certainly > > different etiquette applies to all we learnt in Noosa:-)). Just > shows that > > sila isn't bound up in a set of rules, perhaps? > > Leaving sila aside for the moment: if I had my way, there'd be only > one rule in surfing - RIDE THE SHORTEST BOARD YOU CAN! > :-) ..... S: It's a losing battle, Ken, trying to have others behave as we'd like....'Each has his/her own way' and it's just as true in the waves as anywhere else:-) Can we encourage the other Qlders to join in? Perhaps you can say something really controversial for a change:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #63919 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 3:13 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Charles D, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > I agree that when we THINK about a tree, it only exists in our > imagination/mind (the THOUGHT that is); the ENTITIES we call trees exist > out-side our minds; and we can only EXPERIENCE these entities (i.e., > trees) > via the 6 sense-gates (as objects of the gates). .... S: Yes, we're getting closer and closer:-). The only modification I'd make is to your phrase about the ENTITIES. Only the rupas arising and falling away (which are taken for trees) exist outside our minds. .... > > Now that I better understand your language, I can say I think we are on > the > same page. However, it is widely accepted that there are other ways of > sensing and sensed-objects that humans are not normal for humans. .... S: For whatever sentient being, objects can only be experienced though the 5 sense-doors or mind-door. Seeing can only occur through the eye-door, hearing through the ear-door and so on. Of course, not all beings have all senses. Let me know if you have another idea. Metta, Sarah ======== #63920 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ditthi (Jon) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 10/3/06 12:11:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Phil, > no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta does > not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas > alternating, such as thinking of your comfort, or wrong view. > Nina. > =================== First of all, Nina, inasmuch as you are posting now, I presume you have returned home. I hope the remainder of your trip was wonderful and that your flight back pleasant! It was a true delight to visit with you and Lodewijk, to whom I also send my warmest greetings! I will remember our get together very fondly. It made a cherished impression on me. :-) As for your reply to Phil, from my own introspection I agree entirely, at least as regards typical scenarios. When one is engaged over a(n even brief) period of time in an unwholesome action, there arise and cease a multitude of mindstates almost all of which are akusala, and which vary in exact type and in intensity among themselves. (The few kusala states involved might be occasional moments of regret or "second thought".) As for killing, hatred or fear (or both alternatingly) are most likely to be mainly in effect, and, at the *exact* moment at which the decisive action is taken, I believe it would be hatred that likely dominates. I base this not on study, but on past unfortunate experience with certain harmful little creatures (insects and such). Fortunately, for many years it has become my practice to remove from the house unwanted and uninvited (LOL!) "guests" instead of inflicting harm on them. I have found that even the most "repulsive" of creatures can come to be seen with a degree of actual fondness when dealing with them kindly over a period of time, a fact that has amazed me. But what is going on when engaged in killing is a complex matter, and what I wrote above doesn't always apply. I think of "mercy killings" of those dying a torturous death. I also think of regretful killing in defense of innocents such as police and soldiers may have to engage in. Of course, what states actually arise depends in the specific person involved and the specific circumstances in place. But in situations such as these I think the "typical" analysis given above is likely off the mark at least in part. With metta, Howard #63921 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta upasaka_howard Hi, Plamen - In a message dated 10/3/06 5:11:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pgradinarov@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >The notion of storehouse consciousness > >(alayavijnana), for example, is not at all to my liking, striking me > as > >substantialist and completely unnecessary. > > In alayavijnana the Vijnanavadins only revitalized the old-timer > bhavanga-citta and made it a regular paramartha-dharma, nothing more. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, if you will check with others here, you will see that I am not so fond of the bhavanga-citta notion either! LOLOL! But I do think that the notion of storehouse consciousness goes further in the wrong direction. That stream is thought of as an underlying substantialist substratum, it seems to me, a subterranean river as it were. Bhavanga cittas are said to arise and cease interspersed among other states, but alayavijnana is thought of as continuously present, if I'm not mistaken. ----------------------------------------- With metta, Howard #63922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhaana, no 13. nilovg Dear friends, Wolfgang: Dear Robert, I am really glad to hear that you meditated at one time in your life. In addition, you know I took the superstitions of the Burmese laypeople just as some example. Because you also heard me say what I had to say about accessing Jhanas by becoming removed from the hindrances. You read about my struggle, and not only for months, to that end.... ---------- Robert: Dear Wolfgang, As I said in my earlier post I was only pointing out my own error, only you yourself know whether you reached upacara samadhi. The thing is the one who genuinely does reach first jhana will have no doubt that somthing momentous has happened: they are have actually attained another plane- that plane of the Brahmas, higher than the highest devas of the kamaloka. But then again the one who hasn't attained may experience many subtle and unusual and pleasant experiences and take these to be jhana. I am writing not so much for you but for anyone who reads this thread. You lived for 2 years in a temple devoted to samatha and thus you fulfilled the outward conditions of seclusion needed for success. Then again how do you feel gaining samatha helped with insight, vipassana? You ask if I give up striving for samma-samadhi. What is samma- samadhi and what is right effort, we need to think about this. Samma- samadhi has different types, it is not limited to temples or retreats. Robert --------- Robert: It has been explained in the Abhidhamma, Puggala Pannatti, Human Types, that some people develop samatha and vipassana and some only vipassana, they have , sukkha vipassana. I shall just quote a text from the Suttanta where this is explained. Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Nidana vagga, II, 119: Susima: we read that Susima the wanderer was persuaded by his followers to join the Order so that he could learn the Dhamma and teach his followers. They wanted then to preach the Dhamma to the laity in order to receive honour and gain. Susima was ordained by Ananda and heard that many monks had attained arahatship. Susima asked them whether they had attained supranatural powers, rupa-jhana or arupa-jhana and they answered that they had not.When Susima asked them "How is that", they answered: "We have been freed by insight, friend Susima." Susima answered: "I do not know fully the matter stated concisely by the venerable ones. It would be well if the venerable ones were to state it so that I might come to know fully the matter they have stated concisely" "Whether you know it, friend Susima, or whether you do not know it, we have been freed by insight." Susima went to the Buddha who explained to him: "First comes knowledge of the law of cause (and effect) , afterwards comes knowledge about nibbana." The Buddha then asked him whether the body is permanent or impermanent, and whether what is impermanent is dukkha or pleasant, sukha, and whether one can take what is impermanent and dukkha for self. The Buddha asked him the same about the other khandhas, aggregates, and then taught him the Dependent Origination in order and in reverse order, which mmeans that with the ceasing of ignorance there is the end of the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha then asked him whether when he would know this, he would enjoy the supramundane powers, and whether he could attain arupa-jhana, he answered that he could not. The Buddha said: "Here then, Susima:- this catechism and the non-attainment of these things:-this is what we have done. " ******* (end quote) Nina. #63923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 11:03 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 83 nilovg Dear friends, Eleven planes are kåma-bhúmis (or kåma-lokas), sensuous planes of existence, and of these one is the plane of human beings, six are heavenly planes and four are woeful planes. Beings born in one of the kåma-bhúmis receive sense impressions, they have kåmåvacara cittas. There are also higher heavenly planes which are not kåma-bhúmi. There are thirty-one classes of planes of existence in all. If one is born in one of the kåma-bhúmis and cultivates jhåna, absorption, one can, besides kåmåvacara cittas, also have rúpa- jhånacittas and arúpa-jhånacittas. If one cultivates the eightfold Path one can have lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas which directly experience nibbåna. When someone attains jhåna, the kusala kamma he performs is not kåmåvacara kusala kamma; at the moment of jhåna there are no sense impressions. The kusala kamma which is jhåna does not produce result in the same lifespan one attains it, but it can produce result in the form of paìisandhi-citta, the paìisandhi-citta of the next life. In that case there are jhånacittas arising shortly before death and the paìisandhi-citta of the next life experiences the same object as those jhånacittas. The result of rúpåvacara kusala citta (kusala citta which is rúpa- jhånacitta) is birth in a heavenly plane which is not kåma-bhúmi but a rúpa-brahma-plane (fine-material world). The result of an arúpåvacara kusala citta (kusala citta which is arúpa-jhånacitta) is birth in a heavenly plane which is an arúpa-brahma plane (immaterial world). There are different rúpa-brahma-planes and arúpa-brahma planes. ****** Nina. #63924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 11:09 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 64 nilovg Dear friends, If we do not begin to develop panna now, panna will never grow. This is also the meaning of the following sutta in Kindred Sayings (II, Ch XVI, Kindred Sayings on Kassapa, par. 2, Careless), where Sariputta asks Maha-Kassapa in how far it is true that nibbana cannot be attained 'without ardour and without care'. ‘With Ardour’ is in Pali atapi, which word is also used time and again in the 'Satipatthana sutta', in connection with 'sampajano satima', which means: with understanding and mindfulness. As to 'with care', this is in Pali with 'ottappa', fear of blame. We read: “When, friend, a monk thinks thus: Bad and evil states that have not arisen, were they to arise, would conduce to my hurt-- and no ardour is aroused, this is to be without ardour. So also when he thinks: Bad and evil states that have arisen if they are not eliminated, would conduce to my hurt,- or: - Good states that have arisen, were they not to arise,- or: - Good states that have arisen, were they to cease, these things would conduce to my hurt- and no ardour is aroused, this is to be without ardour. And how, friends, is a man without care? When, in these four cases, he uses no care. Thus it is, friend, that a man who is without ardour, without care, is incapable of enlightenment, incapable of Nibbana, incapable of the uttermost security.” And how, friend, is he ardent and careful? Even in each of these four considerations. Thus it is, friend, that a man who is ardent and careful is capable of enlightenment, of Nibbana, of the uttermost safety. If we understand that 'evil states' are bound to arise when there is no 'right effort' with ardour and care, there will be a sense of urgency to apply oneself to kusala and above all to be aware of realities which appear. ***** Nina. #63925 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Han: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas nilovg Dear Han and all, What I found so interesting was that you had said that everyone in Birma is taught to try. But I have no trouble with trying and training, we know they are cetasikas. Do put forward your views. I need other points of views, it makes me consider more. In fact, I love it. (Hallo folks, I need contrarious remarks!) That is said in a charming way: we can go along hand in hand. We all study and have the same goal. Thank you for your kind words. I wonder whether you still need help with the sending through of cetasikas? Nina. Op 24-sep-2006, om 0:08 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I have read your Letter about the Burmese Ambassador, > and I also like your comments on his advice. Before, I > was very eager to put forward my views. Now, I realize > that it is not necessary to do that. We can go along > together hand-in-hand even if we have some > disagreements on certain points. #63926 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 8:31 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: self dacostacharles Hi Daniel, Do you believe the 4 noble truths are correct? Do you believe the 8 Fold path is the way to live ones life? Charles DaCosta #63927 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 2:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] to Nina: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina and all, Thank you very much for your kind response. I will continue to follow Cetasikas’ Study Corner and other threads and give my opinion whenever appropriate. The messages on Cetasikas still do not reach my mail box, but it does not matter. I just check http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messagesand keep myself up-to-date. That’s the benefit of ‘trying,’ isn’t it? (:>) I am glad that you have no trouble with trying and training, as you know they are cetasikas. Please convey my kind regards to Lodewijk. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and all, > What I found so interesting was that you had said > that everyone in Birma is taught to try. But I have > no trouble with trying and training, we know they > are cetasikas. > I wonder whether you still need help with the > sending through of cetasikas? > Nina. #63928 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 5:00 pm Subject: To monk or not to monk? (Re: some points on art) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, I don't really want to belabor this point because I don't see a resolution. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. However, I want to point out what I view as an inconsistency in your position: Sarah: If we think we'd have more understanding if we ordained or lived somewhere else, we are lost in our fantasy world again, forgetting about dhammas which are conditioned already. Sarah: I agree with you, James, that the Buddha encouraged those who were suited to the bhikkhu's life to ordain. First you say that if we believe we should ordain we are living in a fantasy world; then you say that some people are suited to ordain. I see a contradiction here. But I'm sure you don't and you will proceed to talk circles around the matter until I get so fed up I want to pull my hair out or shoot myself! ;-)) (just kidding). Let's just let the matter drop- I didn't expect agreement. Metta, James #63929 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James & all, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > wrote: > > > > > ... > > > S: I think the important thing to remember is that samvegga is > > referring > > > to an understanding, a sense of urgency with wisdom, not to any > > unpleasant > > > thoughts or feelings. > > > > I disagree with this statement. Samvegga, even though it involves > > wisdom, does include unpleasant feelings. > .... > S: When there's wisdom, surely there can't be any unpleasant feelings at > the same time? You ask this question because you see wisdom (panna) being of only one type. There are many types of panna. samvega (sa"mvega): The oppressive sense of shock, dismay, and alienation that comes with realizing the futility and meaninglessness of life as it's normally lived; a chastening sense of one's own complacency and foolishness in having let oneself live so blindly; and an anxious sense of urgency in trying to find a way out of the meaningless cycle. http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Samvega/id/83955 a sense of urgency, are 8: "birth, old age, disease, death, being 4; the suffering in the lower states of existence being the 5th; further, the misery of the past rooted in the cycle of rebirth, the misery of the future rooted in the cycle of rebirth, the misery of the present rooted in the search after food" (Vis.M. III.). (Note the word "misery" repeated throughout. Misery is not a pleasant feeling.) > > I'm glad you got a copy of Vism. I am too. Thanks for your help in that! > See refs in Vism on samvegga: 111,95, 1V, 63 and X111, 35 I am at work and I don't have my copy with me. However, I quoted the Vism. above. I will look at your other references later. > > Here's the first one. (The Pali is just added because I was interested to > check it): > > "In one of intelligent temperament[buddhicaritassa] there is frequent > occurrence of such states as readiness to be spoken to [sovcassataa], > possession of good friends[kalyaa.namittataa], knowledge of the right > amount in eating[bhojane matta~n~nutaa], mindfulness and full > awareness[satisampaja~n~na.m], devotion to wakefulness [jaagariyaanuyogo], > a sense of urgency about things that should inspire a sense of > urgency[sa'mvejaniiyesu .thaanesu sa'mvego sa'mviggassa], and wisely > directed endeavour[yoniso padhaanan ti evamaadayo]." This is an interesting quote but I don't see how it's related. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s More in U.P. on 'samvegga'. I don't read UP for general information; it's too biased. > ============== > Metta, James #63930 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Right intention/samma sankappa (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina I'm glad I caught this before you wrote a reply because I am sure you have your hands full these days. I've studied the chapter on vitakka in Cetasikas since I posted and I understood a bit better so I will reformulate the question. My question has something to do with the bottom of p.76 and the top of p.77. There is a jump from vitakka that lashes the object, and then the wonderful sutta that deals with the two kinds of thought. I don't yet quite understand what the relation is between the initial application vitakka and the content of thought in the more conventional sense but I will reformulate the question at some point. Thanks. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil and all, > > I shall see to this after Oct 2, since I go away tomorrow and have to > close my Email until Oct 2. > Nina. > #63931 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 7:17 pm Subject: A reference scottduncan2 Dear All, There is reference to a "Discourse on the Noble Ones' Heritages" in Visuddhimagga XX.83 (~Naa.namoli). It is referenced as the "Ariya-lineage Discourse," in Pe Maung Tin's translation. I can't seem to find this. Is it a sutta? Any assistance would be appreciated. With loving kindness, Scott. #63932 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 9:31 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 64 philofillet Hi Nina In this sutta, and in any reference to the four right efforts, and in the admonition to "avoid evil, do good and ????" the evil is always mentioned before the good. I have never seen it the other way around but sometimes people get it the other way around in talks I have listened to and I wonder at such moments if it is an important mistake or not. Do the tipitaka or commentaries give any significance to the evil being mentionned before the good? Phil p.s again, know you're busy so please put this way at the bottom of any to do list. Thanks! :) > "When, friend, a monk thinks thus: Bad and evil states that have not > arisen, were they to arise, would conduce to my hurt-- and no ardour > is aroused, this is to be without ardour. So also when he thinks: Bad > and evil states that have arisen if they are not eliminated, would > conduce to my hurt,- or: - > > Good states that have arisen, were they not to arise,- or: - Good > states that have arisen, were they to cease, these things would > conduce to my hurt- and no ardour is aroused, this is to be without > ardour. #63933 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 11:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard, This word 'intention' that we keep using can mean different things and we are getting them confused. Firstly, it can mean 'plan' as in: My intention is to climb Mt Everest, or: My plan is to raise the little finger of my left hand. That kind of intention that can't possibly exist in absolute reality. It can't exist because it requires a person or entity that continues into the future. Secondly, it can mean volition (or cetana cetasika), which always exists in absolute reality. It acts upon other arisen dhammas (and their concepts) - it does not control the future. --------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > the past no longer exists and the future has never existed. I > > think you will find the Buddha urged the right understanding of > > each "presently arisen state." > > H: > Why urge an action that cannot be intentionally done? If it happens, > it happens. If no, not. What is the point of urging? --------------------------- If we think of right understanding as an act of mental development then of course it can be done intentionally (in the sense of volitionally). The Buddha urged that kind of action by creating conditions for it. Right understanding can occur now because the Buddha taught the Dhamma. The only other factors needed to be in place are that the Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered. Ken H #63934 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 1:34 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 539- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd We may not kill or steal, but we may be forgetful as far as our speech is concerned. A word which can harm ourselves and others is uttered before we realize it. We tend to disparage others because we are attached to talking and want to keep the conversation going. When we are slighted by someone else we are easily inclined to answer back. Our self-esteem may be hurt and then we want to defend ourselves. Most of the time we think of ourselves; we want to be honoured and praised. We forget that it is beneficial to abstain from wrong speech and to speak with kusala citta. How often in a day do we speak with kusala citta? The Buddha reminded the monks about right speech. We should remember what the Buddha said about right speech in the Parable of the Saw (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 21): * … Monks, when speaking to others you might speak at a right time or at a wrong time; monks, when speaking to others you might speak according to fact or not according to fact; monks, when speaking to others you might speak gently or harshly; monks, when speaking to others you might speak about what is connected with the goal or about what is not connected with the goal; monks, when speaking to others you might speak with a mind of friendliness or full of hatred. Herein, monks, you should train yourselves thus: “Neither will our minds become perverted nor will we utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will we dwell, with a mind of friendliness, void of hatred; and we will dwell having suffused that person with a mind of friendliness; and, beginning with him, we will dwell having suffused the whole world with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, widespread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.” This is how you must train yourselves, monks." * When we give in to wrong speech there is no kindness and consideration for other people’s welfare. When there is loving kindness there is no opportunity for wrong speech. We can and should develop loving kindness in daily life and we should at the same time see the value of observing morality, otherwise loving kindness cannot be sincere. Many wholesome qualities have to be developed together with right understanding so that eventually defilements can be eradicated. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference nilovg Dear Scott, Ariyava.msa sutta, Ang II, 28. See footnote, Vis. III, note 15. Especially the Co has explanations about the practice. It is very interesting. Also Sangiti, the Fours, no 9, and see Pali Proper Names p. 463 under mahaa-va.msa, referring to bhaavanaa and satipatthaana. I like your reference very much, very useful about being pleased with insight, my insight. People may say: I know this, but does one truly, truly realize it? Nina. Op 4-okt-2006, om 4:17 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > There is reference to a "Discourse on the Noble Ones' Heritages" in > Visuddhimagga XX.83 (~Naa.namoli). It is referenced as the > "Ariya-lineage Discourse #63936 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 2:35 am Subject: Re: Rob's forum on jhaana, no 13. matheesha333 Hi Nina,(Robert) >R: Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Nidana vagga, II, 119: > Susima: we read that Susima the wanderer was persuaded by his > followers to join the Order so that he could learn the Dhamma and > teach his followers. They wanted then to preach the Dhamma to the > laity in order to receive honour and gain. Susima was ordained by > Ananda and heard that many monks had attained arahatship. Susima > asked them whether they had attained supranatural powers, rupa- jhana > or arupa-jhana and they answered that they had not.When Susima asked > them "How is that", they answered: > > "We have been freed by insight, friend Susima." > > Susima answered: "I do not know fully the matter stated concisely by > the venerable ones. It would be well if the venerable ones were to > state it so that I might come to know fully the matter they have > stated concisely" > > "Whether you know it, friend Susima, or whether you do not know it, > we have been freed by insight." > > Susima went to the Buddha who explained to him: > > "First comes knowledge of the law of cause (and effect) , afterwards > comes knowledge about nibbana." > > The Buddha then asked him whether the body is permanent or > impermanent, and whether what is impermanent is dukkha or pleasant, > sukha, and whether one can take what is impermanent and dukkha for > self. The Buddha asked him the same about the other khandhas, > aggregates, and then taught him the Dependent Origination in order > and in reverse order, which mmeans that with the ceasing of ignorance > there is the end of the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha then > asked him whether when he would know this, he would enjoy the > supramundane powers, and whether he could attain arupa-jhana, he > answered that he could not. The Buddha said: > > "Here then, Susima:- this catechism and the non-attainment of these > things:-this is what we have done. " > ******* a different view on the matter: Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html panna-vimutti: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html #63937 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference sarahprocter... Dear Scott (Nina & all), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear All, > > There is reference to a "Discourse on the Noble Ones' Heritages" in > Visuddhimagga XX.83 (~Naa.namoli). It is referenced as the > "Ariya-lineage Discourse," in Pe Maung Tin's translation. I can't > seem to find this. Is it a sutta? ..... S: (As I'd also been interested to check the references which Nina has provided and already started typing, I'll continue.) In the Dict of Pali Proper Names it says the Ariyava.msa Sutta is mentioned in the Commentaries (DA i.50, MA i.14) as an example of a discourse preached by the Buddha 'on his own initiative (attajjhaasaya)', [i.e. not in a response to a question or particular occurrence]. It says 'this perhaps refers to the sermon on the four Ariyava.msaa in AN'. In B.Bodhi's Anthology from AN (Bk 4s,28), he gives the title 'Noble Lineages (Ariyava.msa Sutta). In a footnote he says that 'this short sutta, on the simplicity and contentment of the monk's life, was extremely popular in ancient times, as is evident from the long and detailed commentary on it (12 pages in Be).' The 4 Ariyava.msa are: a) the bhikkhu is content with any kind of robe b) he is content with any kind of almsfood c) he is content with any kind of lodging d) the bhikkhu finds 'delight in the development (of meditation)[bhaavanaa], is delighted with the development (of meditation), finds delight in the abandoning [pahaana] (of defilements), is delighted with the abandoning (of defilements). In the Sangiiti Sutta 33, where the same 4 Ariyava.msa are referred to, for d) it gives (Walshe transl): "d) a monk, being fond of abandoning (pahaana), rejoices in abandoning, and being fond of developing (bhaavanaa), rejoices in developing, is not therefore conceited...And one who is thus skilful, not lax, clearly aware and mindful, is known as a monk who is true to the ancient, original Ariyan lineage." ***** B.Bodhi quotes from the commentary to the sutta above in AN: "AA: He delights in developing the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right efforts, the four bases of success, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven enlightenment factors, the seven contemplations (Vism XX,4), the eighteen great insights (XX11,113), the thirty-seven aids to enlightenment, the thirty-eight meditation subjects; and he delights in abandoning the various types of defilements such as sensual desire, etc." Back to the sutta: "Discontent does not vanquish the steadfast one, For discontent cannot vanquish the steadfast. The steadfast one vanquishes discontent For the steadfast one endures discontent. Who can obstruct the dispeller of defilements, The one who has abandoned all kamma? Who is able to blame such a person, One like a coin of refined gold? Even the devas praise such a person; By Brahma too he is praised." {S: This reminds me of a comment I heard recently on a tape about how the only problems are the kilesa - not people or situations) ***** The Vism section you refer to is full of good passages (XX, 82-88)*: Here are a few extracts for those who don't have the text itself. I'll add a few Pali terms used: "But when he has discerned this materiality (ruupa.m) as described above and this immateriality(arupa.m) as described here, then he sees that there is no living being over and above the material and the immaterial. As soon as he no longer sees a being, the perception of a being is removed (sattasa~n~naa ugghaa.titaa)." "'There is no removal of [false] view (di.t.thi) in one who takes it thus, "I see with insight, my insight (mama vipassanaa)"; there is removal of [false] view in one who takes it thus, "Only formations(sa~nkhaaraa) see formations with insight(vipassanti), comprehend, define, discern, and delimit them". There is no abolition of conceit(maana) in one who takes it thus, "I see thoroughly with insight, I see well with insight"; there is abolition of conceit in one who takes it thus, "Only formations see formations with insight...." There is no ending of attachment in one who is pleased with insight thus, "I am able to see with insight"; there is ending of attachment in one who takes it thus, "Only formations see formations with insight....." "There is removal of [false] view in one who sees thus: "If formations were self, it would be right to take them as self; but being not-self they are taken as self. Therefore they are not-self in the sense of no power being exercisable over them (tasmaa te avasavattana.t.thena anatta); they are impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be(hutvaa abhaava.t.thena aniccaa); they are painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall(uppaadavayapa.tipii.lana.t.thena dukkhaa)". "Thus there comes to be the removal of [false view] in one who sees formations as not-self(sa~nkhaare anattato passantassa di.t.thisamugghaa.tana.m)); there comes to be the abolishing of conceit in one who sees them as impermanent(aniccato passantassa maanasamugghaa.tana.m); there comes to be the ending of attachment in one who sees them as painful(dukkhato passantassa nikantipariyaadaana.m). So this insight(vipassanaa) is valid in each instance.' " ***** Metta, Sarah * If anyone has the full text typed out (with or without the Pali), maybe you could add it. ======= #63938 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks and welcome back. N: "...I like your reference very much, very useful about being pleased with insight, my insight. People may say: I know this, but does one truly, truly realize it?" Yes, I found the passage to be very beautiful as well. From Chattha Sangyana (for a section of Ariyava.msasutta.m): "Puna capara.m, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bhaavanaaraamo hoti bhaavanaarato, pahaanaaraamo hoti pahaanarato, taaya ca pana bhaavaanaaraamataaya bhaavanaaratiya pahaanaaraamataaya nevattaanuka.mseti, no para.m vambheti. Yo hi tattha dakkho analaso sampajaano patissato, aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu poraa.ne aga~n~ne ariyava.mse .thito. Ime kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cattaaro ariyava.msaa aga~n~naa ratta~n~na va.msa~n~na poraa.naa asa.mki.n.naa asa.mki.n.napubhaa, na sa.mkiiyanti na s.mkiiyissanti, apa.tiku.t.thaa sama.nehi braahmanehi vi~n~nuuhi." (Hopefully rendered correctly,) And Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation (ATI): "Furthermore, the monk finds pleasure and delight in developing (skillful mental qualities), finds pleasure and delight in abandoning (unskillful mental qualities). He does not, on account of his pleasure and delight in developing and abandoning, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones." What is the compound "nevattaanuka.mseti?" From what does "exalt himself and disparage others" come from in the pali? Is something missing in this translation? Does Bhikkhu Bodhi have a translation for comparison? Sincerely, Scott. #63939 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 7:54 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas ( philofillet Hi Scott > > P: "...But someone in one of the recorded talks asked an interesting > question - isn't it a bit dishonest to say 'understanding arises' or > whatever 'citta arises' as though by saying that there were some > kind of freedom from self-view, when in fact it's really 'I' at > work. Maybe it's more honest to say 'I'" > > Its a good point. It is true, I guess 'technically,' that things > arise. I think I sort of even think things like that to myself and > its like reminding myself or something but it is an intellectual > exercise for sure. But a very important one, with a proper Pali term! I forget now, three kinds of panna, based on what we heard, what we reflected on and what we direcly understood. This intellectual appreciation of what is going on is a necessary pre-condition for deeper understanding. As long as we don't mistake this intellectual consideration for something more profound, which I think goes on a lot. I don't think its quite 'dishonest' since I'm not > trying to fool myself - or so I think. I mean I know its like > reviewing the Dhamma in my mind and paying attention to this or that dhamma. Well, we can assume that lobha and moha that have been accumulated are working to fool us - that's for sure. But not dishonest - that's just a word the person in the talk used at the spur of the moment. I don't think there are dishonest people kicking around here. > I know the other night I noticed that this mood had 'arisen.' I > missed the start of it but kind of noticed it in mid-mood, as it were. > It was a crabby sort of distracted and restless state. It was also > around bed-time for the kids, which involves some time with each for > chats and cuddles. The mood was not actually all that conducive to > such a thing I could tell. Our loved ones help a lot because when we are irritated with people we love it really stands out and is relatively easy to see. > The sequence was quite quick but along with noticing the bad mood, > thinking of the bed-time ritual, knowing the mood could make it > unpleasant, I did think that moods like this come and go or arise and > fall-away or something and this did serve to seemingly condition an > attenuation of the mood and allow me to initially 'fake' some > bonhommie with the kids which settled into a 'real' ability to be > pleasant (or however else one is to describe whatever that was that > arose). Oh yes, absolutely. I'm sure we can all relate to this. With me it's usally with students when I'm cranky. The reflection on Dhamma arises, briefly, and conditions something a little bit fake but less toxic, and then without thinking about it any further, it settles naturally into something more real (I would guess metta/adosa) which has been accumulated and arises to diffuse the tension. Happens all the time, for sure. So anyway, it is intellectual I guess but needn't be > dishonest. What was the answer given in the recording? Hmm. I forget. Next time it comes up I'll make a note to send it along. Phil p.s oh, I just remembered. Nothing earth shattering. The need to use the conventional "I" in order to communicate. But there was soemthing after that.... #63940 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob's forum on jhaana, no 13. nilovg Hi Matheesha, I find these texts really difficult. I am familiar with the view in ATI. It was cited here before. Do you know Ven. Henepola: The Jhanas, Wheel no 351/353. It is a very thorough study of the jhanas, and he was assisted by Ven. Bodhi. At the end of his book he explains about sukkha vipassaka and quotes the Susima sutta and also its commentary. I know that there are different pa~n~navimutta arahats and not all of these are sukkha vipassaka. However, here, the Commentary and subcommentary explain the matter further. Co: 'We are contemplatives, dry-insight meditators, liberated by wisdom alone.' I quote from the book; Quote: Matheesha, I shall continue quoting Rob's forum. He even included an old post of mine to you. I hope you read Ven. Henepola, he explains all these difficult terms very well. Nina. Op 4-okt-2006, om 11:35 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do > not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that > make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply > deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain > in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the > formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition > of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44 > (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" > and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in > the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right > concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants > mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana > before attaining Awakening. #63941 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 8:18 am Subject: Re: Renewed Understanding of MN 148 Chachakka Sutta nidive Hi Jon again, > After reading this passage, the idea struck me that the internal > intellect medium is not to be understood as cittas or cetasikas, but > rather as just old kamma. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html > > "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... > The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old > kamma. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I see how the interpretation of the six internal sense media as old kamma ties in with what you said earlier. > As a matter of interest, the commentarial and abhidhammic > explanation of the relationship between vinnana and nama-rupa is as > follows: > - 'Vinnana' refers to patisandhi citta (the rebirth consciousness) > and the subsequent vipaka cittas in the same life > - 'Nama' of 'nama-rupa' refers to the mental factors that accompany > the patisandhi citta and the subsequent vipaka cittas > - 'Rupa' of 'nama-rupa' refers to the kamma-produced rupas that > arise together with the patisandhi citta and the subsequent vipaka > cittas In the above { consciousness -> name-&-form }, name-&-form is old kamma. Since { name-&-form -> six-internal-sense-media }, the six-internal- sense-media are also old kamma. Therefore, in { name-&-form -> consciousness }, name-&-form is the same old kamma that was given rise to in { consciousness -> name-&- form }. Therefore, you are right in saying that 'name' in D.O. only refers to a partial set of cetasikas and 'form' in D.O. only refers to the form internal to one's body. There is a curiosity as to why the Buddha gives 3 ways of how contact comes into play. (1) In D.O. : { name-&-form -> six-internal-sense-media -> contact } (2) In DN 15 : { name-&-form -> contact } (3) In MN 148: { six-internal-media + six-external-media -> consciousness } The meeting of the 3 is said to be contact. Nina in ADL says that the panca-vinnanas are vipaka. I am of the opinion that in MN 148, the consciousness that arises dependent on the six-internal-media and the six-external-media is actually vipaka citta. This is significant in that the dependency of { name-&-form -> consciousness } is not repeated in (1) D.O.. Instead, it is skipped over and hidden under { six-internal-sense-media -> contact }. DN 15 abbreviates it even further as just { name-&-form -> contact }. Thanks for your valuable input! Regards, Swee Boon #63942 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/4/06 2:16:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > This word 'intention' that we keep using can mean different things and > we are getting them confused. Firstly, it can mean 'plan' as in: My > intention is to climb Mt Everest, or: My plan is to raise the little > finger of my left hand. That kind of intention that can't possibly > exist in absolute reality. -------------------------------------- Howard: It exists repeatedly as a conventional process. You make plans, and you carry them out. What I just wrote is meaningful speech, and truthful. ------------------------------------- > It can't exist because it requires a person > or entity that continues into the future. > ----------------------------------- Howard: It requires the realities underlying what we conventionally *call* a person. --------------------------------- Secondly, it can mean> > volition (or cetana cetasika), which always exists in absolute > reality. It acts upon other arisen dhammas (and their concepts) - it > does not control the future. --------------------------------- Howard: It doesn't control it but is an important condition affecting it. ---------------------------------- > > --------------------------- > <. . .> > KH: >>the past no longer exists and the future has never existed. I > >>think you will find the Buddha urged the right understanding of > >>each "presently arisen state." > >> > > H: >Why urge an action that cannot be intentionally done? If it happens, > >it happens. If no, not. What is the point of urging? > --------------------------- > > If we think of right understanding as an act of mental development > then of course it can be done intentionally (in the sense of > volitionally). The Buddha urged that kind of action by creating > conditions for it. Right understanding can occur now because the > Buddha taught the Dhamma. The only other factors needed to be in place > are that the Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered. ---------------------------------- Howard: Urging is something that is done to people with the aim of getting them to carry out an operation. Words have meaning, Ken, and that is what urging is about. The Buddha talked to people using ordinary language with the expectation that it would be understood by them. An action isn't "urged" in the abs tract. One cannot, for example, sanely urge that mindfulness arise. Mindfulness isn't listening to that urgng! LOL! (That reminds me, BTW, of a sutta in which the Buddha made fun of folks who might say to the river "Let the water rise" or "Let the water fall".) What one *can* do is urge people to work at being mindful - to pay attention and stay present. The Buddha urged *people* to do things, and only things that they were capable of doing. He even said that in one sutta. The Buddha never "urged" that people "just get liberated." He urged doable actions that would lead to conditions that support eventual liberation. It is meaningful to speak of people doing things. And it is perverse to say that people cannot do things. Of course, underlying that conventional doing is an extraordinary complexity of conditions, both namic and rupic, but that is beside the point. Those realities don't appear when there is no such "doing", and the doing does not occur when those realities don't occur. When we "lift a finger," many actual conditions arise and cease. When we don't lift that finger, they do not. If "you" want to "control" those conditions, then lift that finger! If not, then not. By dismissing conventional language and actions, you are dismissing *everything*, for it is exactly these behind which lie realities. ------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > > ==================== With metta, Howard #63943 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 11:20 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 14. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for which I blame these five hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by insight (alone). " Thus we can conclude, the majority, 320, only developed insight. End of old post. Here is more: Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 9, Kinds of Recluses ©: Monks, these four persons are found in the world. What four? The unshaken recluse, the blue lotus recluse, the white lotus recluse and the recluse exquisite among recluses. And how, monks, is a person an unshaken recluse? Herein a monks is one of right view....right concentration... And how, monks, is a person a blue-lotus recluse? Herein a monk is of right view and the rest...he is one of right knowledge, of right release. Yet does he not abide experiencing with his own person the eight deliverances... And how, monks, is a person a white-lotus recluse? Herein a monk is of right view and the rest... he is one of right knowledge, of right release, and he abides experiencing with his own person the eight deliverances... And how is a person a recluse exquisite among recluses? Herein a monk, if invited, enjoys a plentiful supply of robes... Now monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse exquisite among recluses, it is just of me that he would rightly use the words... The eight deliverances, vimokkha, see Buddhist dictionary (Nyanatiloka): including both rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana. Co (in Thai), In the first group are included the seven (sekha), the ariyans of the three first stages, and the arahat who has attained magga, but not yet phala (fruit, that follows the magga-citta). Second group: the arahat who is sukha-vipassaka, who has dry insight. By the ten fold Path, or the eightfold Path plus the fruition consciousness of the arahat and the release of the fruition- consciousness of the arahat. The Co. states that the third person is twice liberated, ubhato bhaga-vimutta. The fourth person is the Buddha. As formerly explained in the sutta. All these texts are very intricate and without co. they are very difficult to understand, I find. But the Buddha thought of people with different accumulations. He praised samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four , patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X, on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka, those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of thousand years there are only sotåpannas. Reading about all this is not enough, in the final analysis we should check citta. Jon and I corresponded on the mind that is , ready or pure, in the context of his post on the gradual training for Upali, where a person is ready to receive the Dhamma and attains enlightenment. Now, it is important to develop the perfections together with satipatthana, otherwise enlightenment cannot be attained. A good quality is a perfection only if not developed for one's own sake but with the aim to have less defilements, less clinging to a self. I recently heard a tape of A.Sujin that impressed me so much: when we believe that we develop kusala we should know whether we have expectations or not. Is there now something we expect or are hoping for? Then we better check whether there is some subtle clinging. But nobody else can give you the answer, only you yourself. I have to finish, this post becomes too long, with appreciation for your study and careful consideration, Nina. #63944 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 11:28 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, 84. nilovg Dear friends, There are five stages of rúpa-jhåna and thus there are five types of rúpåvacara kusala citta which can produce five types of rúpåvacara vipåkacitta. There are four stages of arúpa-jhåna and thus there are four types of arúpåvacara kusala citta which can produce four types of arúpåvacara vipåkacitta. Therefore, there are five types of patisandhi-citta which are the results of rúpåvacara kusala cittas and four types of patisandhi-citta which are the results of arúpåvacara kusala cittas. Altogether there are nine types of patisandhi-citta which are the results of the different types of jhånacittas. They are sahetuka vipåkacittas and they are always accompanied by paññå. Summarizing the nineteen types of patisandhi-citta: 1 akusala vipåka santírana-citta (ahetuka, result of akusala kamma) 1 kusala vipåka santírana-citta (ahetuka, result of kåmåvacara kusala kamma) 8 mahå-vipåkacittas (sahetuka, results of kåmåvacara kusala kammas) 5 rúpåvacara vipåkacittas (sahetuka, results of rúpa- jhånacittas) 4 arúpåvacara vipåkacittas (sahetuka, results of arúpa-jhånacittas) We do not know which of our deeds will produce the patisandhi-citta of our next life. Even a deed performed in a former life can produce the patisandhi-citta of the next life. The Buddha encouraged people to perform many kinds of kusala kamma. Each good deed is very valuable; it is certain to bear its fruit sooner or later. We read in As it was said (Khuddaka Nikåya, ``Itivuttaka'', the Ones, chapter III, §6) about the value of generosity. The Buddha said to the monks: Monks, if beings knew, as I know, the ripening of sharing gifts they would not enjoy their use without sharing them, nor would the taint of stinginess obsess the heart and stay there. Even if it were their last bit, their last morsel of food, they would not enjoy its use without sharing it, if there were anyone to receive it... Kusala kamma can cause a happy rebirth, but the end of birth is to be preferred to any kind of rebirth. If one cultivates the eightfold Path and attains arahatship there will be no more rebirth. The dying- consciousness (cuti-citta) of the arahat is not succeeded by a patisandhi-citta. ***** Nina. #63945 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 11:31 am Subject: Letters from Nina, no 65. nilovg Dear friends, There may be awareness of visible object, but we may not be sure about the reality which experiences visible object. When visible object appears there sure must also be a reality which sees. We may remind ourselves of this and then there is thinking, but thinking is also a reality which can be known. If we do not select objects of awareness and just continue being aware of whatever reality appears there will also be conditions for being aware of seeing as a reality which experiences visible object. A question which is often asked is how one can be mindful in daily life, when one is busy with one's work and quite involved in it. One may cling to long moments of sati, but it is right understanding which has to be developed, with the aim to detach from the self and later on from all realities. It would be better not to think so much of having awareness or having long moments of it, it is bound to be thinking with clinging. Khun Sujin often said, 'the test of the development of panna is in daily life.' We have understood in theory about the development of understanding and now it has to be developed in daily life. If there is tiredness or boredom, we should know that these also are realities. We can never escape from nama and rupa in our life, they arise all the time. ****** Nina. #63946 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference nilovg Dear Scott, vambheti: revile, despise. > nevattaanuka.mseti: ukka.mseti: exalt, thus, one k seems to be > missing. attaana.m: himself. neva: na eva, indeed not. Nina. Op 4-okt-2006, om 14:31 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > What is the compound "nevattaanuka.mseti?" From what does "exalt > himself and disparage others" come from in the pali? #63947 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 64 nilovg Hi Phil, we can only guess. Akusala arises more often than kusala. It can be eradicated by pa~n~naa, and then there is more opportunity for kusala. Nina. Op 4-okt-2006, om 6:31 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Do the tipitaka or commentaries give any significance to the evil > being mentionned before the good? #63948 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference lbidd2 Hi Scott and all, You might also note Vism. XX note 25 (~Nanamoli): "The 'Discourse on Purification' (visuddhi-kathaa) and the 'Discourse on the Noble Ones' Heritage' (ariyava"msa-kathaa) are presumably names of chapters in the Old Sinhalese commentaries no longer extant." Larry #63949 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 3:47 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,103 Vism.XVII,104 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XVII 103. 'And for the next in many ways': it is a condition for formations of demerit in many ways. How? As object condition at the time of the arising of greed, etc., contingent upon ignorance; as object-predominance and object-decisive-support respectively at the times of giving importance [to ignorance] and enjoying [it]; as decisive-support in one who, being confused by ignorance and unaware of danger, kills living things, etc.; as proximity, contiguity, proximity-decisive-support, repetition, absence, and disappearance, for the second impulsion and those that follow; as root-cause, conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, and non-disappearance, in one doing anything unprofitable. It is thus a condition in many ways. 104. 'But for the last kind only once': it is reckoned as a condition in one way, namely, as decisive-support condition only, for formations of the imperturbable. But its relation as decisive-support condition should be understood as stated under formations of merit. -------------------------- 103. anekadhaa pana paresanti apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraana.m anekadhaa paccayo hoti. katha.m? esaa hi avijja.m aarabbha raagaadiina.m uppajjanakaale aaramma.napaccayena, garu.mkatvaa assaadanakaale aaramma.naadhipatiaaramma.nuupanissayehi, avijjaasammuu.lhassa anaadiinavadassaavino paa.naatipaataadiini karontassa upanissayapaccayena, dutiyajavanaadiina.m anantarasamanantaraanantaruupanissayaasevananatthivigatapaccayehi, ya.mki~nci akusala.m karontassa hetu sahajaata a~n~nama~n~na nissaya sampayutta atthi avigatapaccayehiiti anekadhaa paccayo hoti. 104. pacchimaana.m saa ekadhaa paccayo mataati aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaraana.m upanissayapaccayeneva ekadhaa paccayo mataa. so panassaa upanissayabhaavo pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaare vuttanayeneva veditabboti. #63950 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 3:56 pm Subject: Wise attention ( was Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet Hi Sarah Here's a passage from "Roots of Good and Evil" by N. Thera that I think is very interesting: "Our freedom of choice is present in our very first reaction to a given experience - that is, in the way we attend to it. But only if we direct wise attention to the object perceived can we make use of our potential freedom of choice." Now, when I first read this I thought - this is wrong. We know that there is -strictly speaking - no freedom of choice for us, not at the very first moment of experiencing an object. There is "bound to be" lobha, to us a term that I hear sometimes and think is very appropriate. But there *is*, often enough, the arising of a wholesome movement away from akusala proliferation, which certainly does effectively represent a kind of freedom of choice, and it is this less strict meaning of freedom of choice that N. Thera is referring to, I assume. So a pleasant visible object arises - there is no freedom of choice in our very first response. There is attachment and at that moment the manasikara that is a universal cetasika is akusala as well. But as you said in your first post back to me on this, the yoniso manasikara of the suttas has a somewhat different meaning, and it is this wise attention that leads us away from unwholesome proliferation. Something like that. I will check the UPs, and re-read the manasikara chapter in Cetasikas. No need to reply now, unless something really calls for it. I will carry on with this thread at some point when I have done some more studying. Phil > > Thanks for this. I just want to repost it so I don't forget it. It's > > something I've always wondered about, how the wise attention of the > > suttas could be the universal cetasika that accompanies all cittas. > > It's more clear now thanks to this post, and I'll get back more to this > > later, I think. > .... > S: Anytime -t's a good topic. Lots more under 'Manasikara' in U.P. too. #63951 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for the below: L: "You might also note Vism. XX note 25 (~Nanamoli): "The 'Discourse on Purification' (visuddhi-kathaa) and the 'Discourse on the Noble Ones' Heritage' (ariyava"msa-kathaa) are presumably names of chapters in the Old Sinhalese commentaries no longer extant." I was wondering if that might be the case. How does one "handle" the material in such a case? I mean the passage under that rubric is excellent and compelling doctrinally, but is totally vulnerable to, say, those of the 'sutta-only' schools; unless it can be shown to be "in the suttas." With loving kindness, Scott. #63952 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 6:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Sarah, -------------------------- <. . .> S: Also, other present objects, i.e paramattha dhammas. Also, other presently arising dhammas which support the present citta and cetasikas (mutuality, support conditions and so on). In other words, not all the conditions are past conditions. ... -------------------------- Agreed. This discussion began when Swee Boon asked if I believed everything was conditioned by the past. I began my answer with a reference to the way present dhammas condition each other. Of course, the next question might be: is the way present dhammas condition each other dependent on past conditions? And I suppose it is, ultimately. (?) Some people might conclude that conditionality means predetermination. It seems to me that predetermination is possible only when there is a self to be predetermined. (But maybe there's more to in than that.) -------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > And the same > namas, by creating that concept, are ultimately responsible for its > NDS conditioning ability. .... S: > Yes, it is the experiencing of such concepts that is accumulated. ------------------------- Oh yes, so it is! That's very well put. Thanks. ------------------------------- S: > We hear that what we see is a computer enough times and then there is the tendency to think of and call it a computer. Or we have pleasant feeling in the waves or sun enough and accumulate a liking for them. -------------------------------- I am impressed, as usual, by the value of Dhamma discussions. We might seem to be going over the same ground time and time again, but something always falls into place a little bit better. ----------------------- <. . .> KH: > only one rule in surfing - RIDE THE SHORTEST BOARD YOU CAN! > > ..... S: It's a losing battle, Ken, trying to have others behave as we'd like....'Each has his/her own way' and it's just as true in the waves as anywhere else:-) ------------------------ Yes, as you have said before: if we are not just joking - if we really believe other people are the cause of our problems - we are due for a cold shower! Even so, every surfer should choose a board that tests the limits of his/her ability. That way, there would be a balance - with no one having an easy time and hogging all the waves! It would be like the handicapping system in amateur golf. Surfing could be civilised! Splash! Brrrr! Ken H #63953 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 6:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, As per the below, I'll report: S: I think you can certainly report anything from the aspect of the teaching/guidance/dhamma discussion you were given. Also, any background info such as where the monk is from, where you met and so on. Also, of course, any of your reflections on the teaching/discussion." The Venerable's name is Bhikkhu Seelananda. He recently came to Edmonton under the auspices of the Alberta Buddhist Vihara. Googling that reference, and then looking under "Sangha membership," you will see his bio. Given that he is from Sri Lanka, I initially was quite interested, imagining that a man from the land where the tipi.taka arose (I think), the land that was the cradle of so much of the commentarial literature I barely know, where Buddhaghosa studied and wrote and all that - I figured I'd have some very informative Dhamma discussions. I was chagrined and disheartened, upon first meeting Venerable Seelananda briefly, when he told me, in response to a question about Abhidhamma, that he only teaches "Dhamma," not abhidhamma. A bit of a wet blanket, I thought. I was too, I don't know, shy I guess to ask him why or what he meant. I went away and had to think hard as to what this meant. Why was I crestfallen? Why do I value Abhidhamma? Am I clinging to it? I read the suttas too, I just think, or was taught, or whatever, that there are three baskets of teachings. At any rate, over time, I determined to return and at least talk man to man about where the venerable was coming from. I knew he had taught abhidhamma for ten years, or so it said in his biography. I figured at least there must be a story in this. I'd benefitted from the discussion on finding a teacher that ranged on the forum at the time. The various comments were sinking in. I realised that I wanted to discuss Dhamma with someone face to face. I knew I didn't want to go through the exercise, which I think amounts only to idealisation and hero worship, of committing to a teacher or whatever one does. I've read too many posts on other fora by people so committed who seem locked in to repeating what "their" teacher said. I want to be open to the learning of others, to learning from other points of view, and to knowing for myself. Anyway, I'd taken the day of the second anniversary of my wife's death off of work and arranged to meet with the Venerable. He'd offered to perform a puja for Andy. James would be pleased, I thought. At any rate, this morning I joined him and he lead me through the ceremony. Luckily I had memorised the stanzas in the going-for-refuge thingy. It was cool; I'd never chanted anything with anyone before. He discussed pu~n~na, death, and was very kind. We chatted until it was time for his meal. I'd brought food for the offering, which of course I couldn't then eat with him, but he shared other food which had been given to him, which was cool. We then went together for about an hour-long walk on a glorious autumn day. I have to admit that I pumped him with questions. I hope that having a bit of an agenda wasn't disrespectful but I wanted to assess what he knew, compare it to what I knew, discover if it was even possible for a man to have studied and taught abhidhamma for ten years or more to be able to root it out of his mind. I determined that it was not and that it did not matter. He briefly explained that the Dhamma, as reposited in the suttas, is enough, that all the explanations are there. He was of the opinion that Buddhaghosa and his commentaries were responsible for leading the Sri Lankan buddhists away from suttas because no one read them any more. I take this to be more an indictment of people than Buddhaghosa personally, but it helped me make sense of his arguments. He noted that Abhidhamma is philosophy, it is to demonstrate anatta, but that it is not anything that can lead to release as it is analysis only. This also made sense, in a way, at least of his point of view. I understood that he is at a different point on the path than I. He is able to turn to the suttas, I imagine, because this was conditioned by his years of comparative abhidhamma study. I'm not in any way convinced, as I mentioned, that this can be shut off. I know that I benefit from the abhidhamma analysis and find it a sort of turbo-charger for learning the dhamma, I guess I should add "if one is so inclined," and I am. And this in now. What this will condition I don't know. I asked about anatta, about who practises, about jhaana, about hadaya, about citta, about Dhamma. I found him to be kind, genuine, and clear, for the most part. I saw an interesting man whose been in a very unique socio-cultural role for many years. I told him I'd continue to study abhidhamma and he said of course I would. We found a middle ground when we both agreed that the only word to describe the Buddha's teachings - not philosophy, not religion - was Dhamma. And this made sense and felt like a good brotherly point of convergence. Cool. I realised I'd learned a lot. I have much more to learn but I feel a strongly about the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha and this conditions a bit of courage in discussion I guess. Oops. There could be more but I've run on too long. You did ask for a report... With loving kindness, Scott. #63954 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "I was wondering if that might be the case. How does one "handle" the material in such a case? I mean the passage under that rubric is excellent and compelling doctrinally, but is totally vulnerable to, say, those of the 'sutta-only' schools; unless it can be shown to be "in the suttas." " L: Given the relativistic nature of concepts one can pretty much find any idea anywhere. I guess what matters is whether it makes sense to you. On the other hand, if it makes perfect sense it might be a candidate for a concrete wrong view. :-) Larry #63955 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 8:50 pm Subject: Att.Sarah. HK gazita2002 hello Sarah, I am in HK courtesy of Cathay Pacific - flight delay - here til 5pm. Don;t have your ph.no. maybe u could call Novotel and leave message at RM 705. I am thinking dhamma chat :-) patience, courage and good cheer, - much needed when tired and connecting flights have been missed, no toothpaste, missed appointments, and to think its all just concepts!!!!!! Azita #63956 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Att.Sarah. HK sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Just got in. After calling round ALL the Novotel hotels here, tracked you down (no answer). I'm coming out to refresh you with toothpaste and dh chat. Setting off now - will take me about an hour to get there (12.20 now). Jon's mobile-92725492 S. --- gazita2002 wrote: > hello Sarah, > > I am in HK courtesy of Cathay Pacific - flight delay - here til 5pm. > Don;t have your ph.no. maybe u could call Novotel and leave message at > RM 705. I am thinking dhamma chat :-) > > patience, courage and good cheer, - much needed when tired and > connecting flights have been missed, no toothpaste, missed > appointments, and to think its all just concepts!!!!!! > Azita > > > > #63957 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:37 pm Subject: Wise attention ( was Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) gazita2002 Hello Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah > > > Here's a passage from "Roots of Good and Evil" by N. Thera that I > think is very interesting: > "Our freedom of choice is present in our very first reaction to a > given experience - that is, in the way we attend to it. But only if we > direct wise attention to the object perceived can we make use of our > potential freedom of choice." > > Now, when I first read this I thought - this is wrong. We know that > there is -strictly speaking - no freedom of choice for us, not at the > very first moment of experiencing an object. There is "bound to be" > lobha, to us a term that I hear sometimes and think is very appropriate. > > But there *is*, often enough, the arising of a wholesome movement > away from akusala proliferation, which certainly does effectively > represent a kind of freedom of choice, and it is this less strict > meaning of freedom of choice that N. Thera is referring to, I assume. > > So a pleasant visible object arises - there is no freedom of choice > in our very first response. azita: nor is there any choice at any time. we must remember that the yoniso manasikara is not 'mine' to be manipulated into any response, not in the first instance or any following arisings [and falling away] I think we can fool ourselves that we can 'turn away' from akusala, but dont forget that ea moment has arisen and gone before 'we' have had time to have wise attention. Sure, the turning away does happen but not due to 'us' doing the turning away. There is attachment and at that moment the > manasikara that is a universal cetasika is akusala as well. But as you > said in your first post back to me on this, the yoniso manasikara of > the suttas has a somewhat different meaning, and it is this wise > attention that leads us away from unwholesome proliferation. Something > like that. I will check the UPs, and re-read the manasikara chapter in > Cetasikas. > > No need to reply now, unless something really calls for it. I will > carry on with this thread at some point when I have done some more > studying. > > Phil patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #63958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference nilovg Dear Scott and Larry, But it is completely in the spirit of all the suttas not to cling to 'my insight' and take it for self. And we have to check in our own life: does it help to cling to my insight? It removes us further away from the goal: detachment from the self. As Sarah quoted, this material was widely used for sermons. Nina. Op 5-okt-2006, om 1:57 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I mean the passage under that rubric is > excellent and compelling doctrinally, but is totally vulnerable to, > say, those of the 'sutta-only' schools; unless it can be shown to be > "in the suttas." #63959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right intention/samma sankappa (Nina) nilovg Hi Phil (and Scott), When we use the word thinking we usually mean thinking of concepts, but we learn that vitakka arises in sense-door processes, in mind- door processes and also in cittas which do not arise in a process. Its function is to strike or hit the object of citta. Also when we are thinking of concepts, vitakka hits the object of thinking. Vitakka can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. In the sutta the difference is emphasized between akusala thinking and kusala thinking. Both occur in daily life time and again, and mostly thinking is akusala. When speaking about the Abhidhamma I like to quote suttas to show that the teaching is one, the teaching of Dhamma. I also like to point out that the Abhidhamma is not a cold and dry analysis as the Venerable one Scott spoke to seemed to think. As Suan once remarked: all the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma. He taught Abhidhamma also in the suttas, but he adapted his way of explanation to the listeners. Moreover, as you also agree, Abhidhamma is all about daily life. Nina. Op 4-okt-2006, om 3:29 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > My question has something to do with the > bottom of p.76 and the top of p.77. There is a jump from vitakka that > lashes the object, and then the wonderful sutta that deals with the > two > kinds of thought. I don't yet quite understand what the relation is > between the initial application vitakka and the content of thought in > the more conventional sense #63960 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. jonoabb Hi Sof sofgld wrote: > Hi Jon (& Han) > Just imagine- > What if your CEO frames you to something > real nasty? He may, but is he 'changing my kamma'? Don't forget, he may or may not be successful (depending on 'my kamma', surely ;-)). > Poor Isisinga didn't even know his sila was damaged, while > thinking about 'velvet electrica' Nilikaa :-) A big piti smile!LOL > He had lived in a protected world. I think his lack of knowledge regarding certain matters was part of the problem. > Albeit devas' brains aren't as powerful as human beings, their divine > eyes plus other Powers, give them a great edge. The best way to avoid > all these is to QUIT the cycle. > Are the devas a problem for you and me? ;-)) Jon #63961 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 1:28 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 15. nilovg Dear friends, Matheesha:Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. To Matheesha, (recently posted) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html Matheesha: I think from the above sutta it is clear that 1)both samatha and vipassana needs to develop. 2)They can be developed seperately. 3)If developed a little, they need to be developed more ie-there is no right time to start developing samatha or vipassana. Both need to be developed from the start to the finish. --------- Nina: The Co. to this sutta elaborates on the person who has attained insight: all conditioned dhammas should be seen as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. ... The wise person has samatha and vipassana that are mundane and supramundane, as the Buddha explained in many suttas and also in these three suttas. At the end of the third sutta (as you quoted) we see that he has reached arahatship, he has detroyed the aasavas. As to samatha and vipassana that are supramundane, also in other commentaries it has been explained that supramundane vipassana refers to the path-consciousness that eradicates defilements and supramundane samadhi refers to the calm accompanying the fruition- consciousness. The defilements have been eradicated and this is the highest calm. ---------- In these three suttas the Buddha praised samatha and vipassana. He did not say: everybody should develop both. In order to have more understanding of this sutta we should also take into consideration other parts of the teachings. The Abhidhamma can throw more light on the matter of samatha and vipassana. The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types explains in 'by Threes', 15: N: the sotaapanna has fulfilled siila, he does not transgress the five precepts.The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm. The arahat has fulfilled sila, samaadhi and also perfect insight. --------- As to the question: should everybody develop jhana: see the same book, the fours, 26: After this a person who attains both and a person who attains neither are mentioned. Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the dircriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka. ****** (the end) Nina. #63962 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > In a related vein, Jon, you and I see very differently when it comes > to the whole householder/monk issue. You seem to think that there > is absolutely no reason whatsoever to become a monk. I don't think I have ever suggested that there was 'absolutely no reason whatsoever to become a monk'. What I may have said in that (a) the development of insight is possible regardless of one's present circumstances, and (b) ordination as a monk does not necessarily mean that there will be greater development of insight than if one remains a layperson. > That > householders can do exactly the same things that monks do. What kind of things do you have in mind that monks can do that layperson cannot? We have agreed in another thread that the attainment of jhana is possible for the layperson ;-)) > Personally, I think you are wrong. You want it to be that way so > you say it is that way. If becoming a monk was not a favourable > thing to do, the Buddha wouldn't have formed a community of monks. > Here is a telling sutta passage: > > Responding, "As you say, lord," Ven. Sona chanted all sixteen parts > of the Atthakavagga. The Blessed One, at the conclusion of Ven. > Sona's chanting, was highly pleased [and said], "Good, good, monk. > You have learned the Attakavagga [verses] well, have considered them > well, have borne them well in mind. You have a fine delivery, clear > & faultless, that makes the meaning intelligible. How many Rains [in > the monkhood] do you have?" > "I have one Rains, lord." > "But why did you take so long [to ordain]?" > "For a long time, lord, I have seen the drawbacks in sensual > passions, but the household life is crowded with many duties, many > things to be done." > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Seeing the drawbacks of the world, > knowing the state without acquisitions, > a noble one doesn't delight in evil, > in evil > a pure one doesn't delight. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html#why > Thanks for the sutta quote. But it doesn't say that ordaining as a monk is the best thing for everyone sincerely interested in the development of insight or anything like that. > However, I also believe that in this day and age of a declining > sangha, it is generally better to be a householder instead of a monk— > especially if you come from a western country. Personally, I had a > very bad experience trying to ordain (and I don't think that my > experience is isolated). > > Also, I believe that householders can accomplish a great deal in the > dhamma if they are persistent and consistent. > Then we pretty much agree ;-)) Jon #63963 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right intention/samma sankappa (Nina) hantun1 Dear Nina (Phil and Scott), Nina: When speaking about the Abhidhamma I like to quote suttas to show that the teaching is one, the teaching of Dhamma. I also like to point out that the Abhidhamma is not a cold and dry analysis as the Venerable one Scott spoke to seemed to think. As Suan once remarked: all the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma. He taught Abhidhamma also in the suttas, but he adapted his way of explanation to the listeners. Moreover, as you also agree, Abhidhamma is all about daily life. Han: Thank you very much for your above comments. I encounter a few persons who even think Abhidhamma was not really taught by the Buddha, but made up by some Commentators later. I now have ‘ammunition’, by way of your comments, to counter their attacks. Respectfully, Han #63964 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 3:22 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi All. So what is the mind? It is composed of the 5 aggregates: 1) Matter / material / form (it can however be argued that this is the brain, the container of the Mind), sensory channels/nerve pathways. 2) Sensations which is the capacity to feel what is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. 3) Perception and Memories 4) Formation / Intelligence (i.e., organizer, relater, concluder, etc) 5) Consciousness / awareness which is the faculty to know. So what really are these aggregates, their compositions and functions? Charles DaCosta _____ > I want to start a thread describing the Mind. From its components > (including their functions and interactions) to the Minds responces > to different stimuli. And yes I know this is a tall order. ... S: So let's start at the beginning. What do you understand by Mind? <...> #63965 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 2:54 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. dacostacharles Hi Han, I find this view of the female seducer very interesting (culturally speaking), because in the US the men are the seducers. It can be argued that boys are raised to believe it is a worthy challenge to rob a girl of her virtues (i.e., virginity). Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of han tun Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 15:46 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. Dear Jon, Sarah and Sof, Jataka story 526 Nilinikaa vatthu was told by the Buddha with respect to a monk who wanted to leave monk-hood due to the entreaty of his ex-wife to come back to her. The Father Hermit in the story was our Buddha (as Bodhisatta), the young hermit was the monk who wanted to leave the monk-hood, and Princess Nilinikaa was the ex-wife of the monk. Jon, it was not difficult for me to track it down, because in Burma, before World War II, this story was one of many stories that our Elders used to tell us warning us against the deceitful nature of women and their expertise in seducing men which was very difficult to resist. (If it were today, our Elders would have difficult time with women activists!) Han <...> #63966 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 2:04 am Subject: RE: [dsg] A question about lethargy and indolence dacostacharles Hi Dan and Sarah, I am still not completely back yet; the new house is still demanding a lot of my attention. To answer your questions Dan, yes if you lack certain other qualities. Ask yourself what the goals of the detachment are, and what excellence in worldly matters is. Then ask yourself what apathy, indifference, lethargy, and indolence really are. Next consider what their (including detachment and excellence in worldly matters) causes are. If this does not give you a different view, then you must keep in mind that morality can be considered as the length of the foundation of Buddhism, wisdom its breath/width, and concentration its thickness. I learned from Tai monks that we must do our duty well, -- this is a moral issue. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:40 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] A question about lethargy and indolence Hi Dan. Good to see you around and hope you had a good summer. I know one or two others have replied on this, but just another brief comment:- --- "Dan D." com> wrote: > Wouldn't a focus on detachment naturally lead to apathy, indifference, > lethargy, and indolence? Aren't the most energetic, productive people > energetic and productive precisely because they are strongly attached > to realizing their goals? Is serious Buddhism incompatible with success > and excellence in worldly matters? .... S: Detachment is incompatible with the states you mention which are of course all arising with akusala cittas. People are so different by their inclinations and accumulations, so with a growth of wisdom and detachment, some will continue to be indolent and others will continue to excel in worldly goals. When we think of any incompatibility, it seems we're thinking of particular 'situations' again, rather than the understanding of whatever dhammas appear by such accumulations now. As Nina said to Daniel with regard to the topic of art and music, no need to change one's inclinations. If one does so with an idea of incompatibility with the understanding of dhammas, we go very wrong again. Serious Buddhism is not incompatible with any inclinations or the arising of any dhammas -- it's the understanding of them as being conditioned this way at this moment. <...> #63967 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 2:39 am Subject: Detachment dacostacharles Detachment in the Buddhist sense should lead to contentment and unconditional happiness. The following is based on Sarah Abbott post: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 14:10 Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference The monk and other noble ones are: a) content with any kind of robes; b) content with any kind of alms food; c) content with any kind of lodging; d) delighted with the development (of meditation); e) delighted with the abandoning (of defilements). And one who is thus skilful, not lax, clearly aware and mindful, is true to the ancient, original Ariyan lineage. Discontent does not vanquish the steadfast one, for discontent cannot vanquish the steadfast. The steadfast one vanquishes discontent, for the steadfast one endures discontent. There comes to be the ending of attachment in one who sees Impermanence, Suffering, and Not-self (i.e., no-power is exercisable over them). Charles DaCosta #63968 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Recall: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Charles DaCosta would like to recall the message, "[dsg] Mind". #63969 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 5:40 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 540- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd The abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, arise only one at a time, but when lokuttara cittas arise, all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara cittas, and then nibbåna is the object. Thus, the object of the abstinences which are lokuttara is different from the object of the abstinences which are of the sense-sphere. The abstinences which are lokuttara are the right speech, right action and right livelihood of the supramundane eightfold Path. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63970 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Att.Sarah. HK sarahprocter... Dear all, (esp Azita, Sukin & Matt) --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, > > Just got in. After calling round ALL the Novotel hotels here, tracked > you > down (no answer). I'm coming out to refresh you with toothpaste and dh > chat. .... S: It's quite a journey by underground to the area Azita was staying (nr the airport) and a chance for me to see some new train lines, shopping malls and a complete new town -- all the places I usually avoid:-)I also took a bit of a gamble setting off without being able to contact Azita. She might have decided to head for H.K. Disneyland just close to where she was staying for all I knew. Very glossy brand-new hotel courtesy of Cathay Pacific (wasted on Azita who'd have been just as happy in a down-market non-air-conditioned native spot)and she ate her way through another Cathay courtesy buffet which fortunately for both of us, she could eat at a nice quiet table outside of the noisy, very busy coffee-shop. I sipped on Chinese tea and we chatted about her trip, her daughters, dhamma reminders, her chaotic flights and so on. In a way, there's not much to chat about when one's with friends who have the same understanding of the teachings. This often strikes me. The ordinary stories don't last long and when everyone agrees there's no control over what will be experienced at the next moment, that's about it! Still, we did chatter for a couple of hours and I scribbled a few cryptic notes - - looking at the floor - it seems to always be there, but just one citta now only, experiencing one object - a dhamma or a concept. That's it. (I have a feeling this was following some comments of Sukin's - he may add more??). - lost flights, delays, grumpy passengers, luggage worries - all again in one citta at this moment and then gone, so no use fretting at all. If there's no thought about the flights and so on, no problem now. - discussions she'd had in the States about 'no control' and the difficulty of explaining. But can anyone 'control' what seeing sees now? What hearing hears now? What thinking thinks about now? It always comes back to understanding namas and rupas. - a telephone call from a daughter to announce she'd gone to court in Dubai to officially become a Muslim. (So much for all that Buddhist upbringing in a household of adult Buddhists:-)). Azita's comment to me: "If only nibbana was that easily attained!". Azita's comments to daughter along the lines of: "Congratulations.....we all do what we do. I don't personally think God organises life, but it's fine by me...." Daughter's response" "I love you". Discussion about keeping communication channels open with family members, not trying to make them think a certain way, tolerance, 'each has his/her own way', understanding, accumulations for different beliefs and ideas. Another very happy adult daughter who just met her grandmother for the first time....Was this daughter interested to hear more about the dhamma? "No", but that doesn't mean one can't have very good relations. Same with my mother - tolerance all round. - dreaming 'just like now', reminders from Azita's trip to KK in Thailand with some Montana background scenery thrown in. (She's caught so many different flights and been in so many different places, that often I had no idea what country we were in or where the discussions were from - travel!! Anyway, they're all stories and what does it mater whether we're talking about the lack of control over seeing in the Black Mountains or the beach in Thailand?) Anyway, dreaming - no sense-impressions, but sometimes one half wakes up and then briefly there are sense-impressions appearing in between the dreams as in the example she gave before. - understanding of dhammas at the present moment as a condition for more metta, more compassion, more consideration. For example, why get agitated and upset about the messed up travel plans when it's all just a moment of thinking now? Understanding dhammas means less concern for oneself and how badly treated one is and more conditions to be friendly and appreciative to staff and so on. Azita had spent some time with two Australians who were being appreciative of the care and courtesy rather than complaining for the delays and disruptions (very considerable disruptions too). Azita said to one that his comments and kindness were very Buddhist (along those lines anyway) and he then took out a little Buddha medallion from under his shirt. - But of course, it all depends on accumulations too. Some people are docile by nature, others get easily irritated. 'Each has his/her own way' and no matter what way it is, understanding can develop. If we judge how 'Buddhist' someone is by the behaviour, we're thinking in terms of situations and 'wholes' again. - Also, the help of reflecting and understanding at any level about kamma and vipaka with regard to family, friends, situations. One place might seem better than another or one flight of passengers luckier, but vipaka ar just the moments of seeing, hearing and so on. So much more depends on the accumulations which follow.... - Seeing now, just like seeing in the Buddha's time.....the Truths are universal in every way. Thanks Azita, it was fun. I've left out the Chinese dogs and cancer which was the funniest part of the afternoon and still chuckling, but I promised not to say more....Oops:-). A long, long journey back to Cairns with extra flights now and more airports in store. But an even longer journey on the Path. One citta at a time, girl:-) [Sukin & Matt, thanks for your efforts to track us down too -next time there's always the free local call to Directory Enquiries, but internet is good too...] Metta, Sarah ======= #63971 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 7:09 am Subject: Wise attention ( was Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet HI Azita > > So a pleasant visible object arises - there is no freedom of > choice > > in our very first response. > > azita: nor is there any choice at any time. we must remember that > the yoniso manasikara is not 'mine' to be manipulated into any > response, not in the first instance or any following arisings [and > falling away] What a nice coincidence - as I was walking home tonight I glanced at my pocket notebook and saw this quotation, and thought - hoenstly I did think this - "someone will point out that there is never any choice." And of course there is no "freedom of choice." And yet, I feel very condifent that with the Buddha's teaching as decisive condition, or something like that, there are many opportunities during the day to choose to drop akusala proliferation. OK, it is not freedom of choice, because it is not guaranteed and it is not "our " chice - but let's say the semblance of a freedom of choice arises quite often during the day - I can say that without a single doubt! > > I think we can fool ourselves that we can 'turn away' from > akusala, but dont forget that ea moment has arisen and gone > before 'we' have had time to have wise attention. Sure, the turning > away does happen but not due to 'us' doing the turning away. Right on, sister! Phil #63972 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A reference sarahprocter... Hi Larry,Scott & Nina, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Scott and all, > > You might also note Vism. XX note 25 (~Nanamoli): > > "The 'Discourse on Purification' (visuddhi-kathaa) and the 'Discourse on > the Noble Ones' Heritage' (ariyava"msa-kathaa) are presumably names of > chapters in the Old Sinhalese commentaries no longer extant." ... S: Very well spotted! I was rather puzzled by the Ariyava.msa Sutta's lack of 'connection' with the Vism passage, but assumed the detail was in the long commentary which it may well be too, as it has the same name. In the 'Pali Literature of Ceylon', Malalasekera gives some detail about the ancient text, the Ariya-va.msa. I also see in the dictionary that 'kathaa' means 'speech, story or talk', so it seems likely it is to this text that he reference is made. From the book, it seems that a king who was on the throne in Sri Lanka from A.D. 204 made great gifts to the Sangha. He ordered the Ariyava.msa to be frequently recited over the whole island and at each recital there was a 'regular almsgiving of reverence for the true doctrine'. This was a 'book of the holy ones' and the custom of almsgiving and recital existed previously and has continued ever since. It seems no one knows whether the text was written in Sinhalese or Pali or possibly both. Scott, I think that as Azita and I discussed today, whether people accept that nothing is within anyone's control or not will depend on the understanding of namas and rupas. The Vism text quotes I gave yesterday (which you referenced) say it all. It doesn't matter at all in the end where it's said or who accepts it. 'The truth is the truth' as K.Sujin always reminds us and 'it's not in the book'! Metta, Sarah ======= #63973 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 7:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard, -------------------------- KH: > >, it can mean 'plan' as in: My > intention is to climb Mt Everest, or: My plan is to raise the little > finger of my left hand. That kind of intention < > can't possibly > exist in absolute reality. H: > It exists repeatedly as a conventional process. -------------------------- A conventional process is precisely what the Dhamma denies. The self is a conventional process: it gets up in the morning, goes to work, and lies down again at night. Drinking a cup of coffee is a conventional process. Raising a little finger is a conventional process. Anatta denies the absolute reality of all these things. I am sure you are correct when you reply, "There are realities underlying them," but you seem to be saying that anatta therefore makes no difference (that the conventional processes are nonetheless real or effective). ---------------------------------------------- H: > You make plans, and you carry them out. What I just wrote is meaningful speech, and truthful. ---------------------------------------------- It is meaningful in conventional reality, but has it any relevance to the Dhamma? --------------------------------- H: > > It can't exist because it requires a person > or entity that continues into the future. > > H: > It requires the realities underlying what we conventionally *call* a person. --------------------------------- So - in your opinion - what difference does the Dhamma make? Take the example of moving a finger: In the conventional way of understanding reality, I plan to move a finger, I move it, and then I consider that I have moved it. How, if at all, does the Dhamma change that conventional understanding? You seem to be saying there is no difference except that there was ultimately no self. ------------------------ KH: > Secondly, it can mean > volition (or cetana cetasika), which always exists in absolute > reality. It acts upon other arisen dhammas (and their concepts) - it > does not control the future. H: > It doesn't control it but is an important condition affecting it. ------------------------ As I understand these matters, a function of cetana (in impulsive cittas) is to will (or exert volition). If, for example, its arammana is experienced with attachment, cetana wills that attachment. If its arammana happens to be a concept of something that might happen in the future(e.g., the future movement of a finger), cetana wills lobha and moha (or whatever namas there are) to perform their functions with that concept as their object. That momentary operation is the limit of cetana's power. Later, there may well be conditions for citta to think, "I am moving the little finger of my left hand," but who knows what conditioned that citta to arise and think that way? I agree the earlier cetana will have an influence to some degree, but it will be just one of many influences. Any subsequent thought that says, "First I planned it, then I did it, and now I have done it" is just a concept (a story). --------------------------- KH: > >The Buddha urged that kind of action by creating > conditions for it. Right understanding can occur now because the > Buddha taught the Dhamma. The only other factors needed to be in place > are that the Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered. H: > Urging is something that is done to people with the aim of getting them to carry out an operation. Words have meaning, Ken, and that is what urging is about. ---------------------------- You seem to be taking the conventional meaning of words and saying that the Dhamma must have the same meaning. But conventional meaning does not always fit with the Dhamma. I think the Dhamma - which is the ultimate in good news - is actually bad news for conventional reality. If there really were such entities as "people" the Dhamma (the Buddha's urging)would be telling them they will all cease to exist. At best it would be telling them they should be discontented with their lot and urging them to change the way things are. I have no such adverse reaction to the Dhamma because, as I see it, it is not directed at persisting entities. It is a condition for the arising of insight (which is a condition for final release from dukkha). These are matters that concern dhammas, not people (not imaginary persisting entities). Ken H #63974 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 8:05 am Subject: Wise attention ( was Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet Hi again Azita > > I think we can fool ourselves that we can 'turn away' from > > akusala, but dont forget that ea moment has arisen and gone > > before 'we' have had time to have wise attention. I sometimes hear Acharn Sujin say that akusala is "already gone" - and of course this is true. But the akusala *situation* is still around, and it seems wise attention can arise to it. For example, something I have imagined at times as a hypothetical situation which could *easily* happen. Say I go to Bangkok and am at a Dhamma discussion, and am trying to concentrate, but the smells and sights of Bangkok have conditioned akusala proliferation based on memories of the very bad but at the time very fun things I did there many years ago. The sights and smells have me itching to head out into the night to buy some drugs and go to a brothel. Could it be said in this case that the akusala has already fallen away? So I appreciate the way the Buddha's teaching guides us in these very non-momentary situations. Yes, in paramattha terms, we have no freedom of choice, that's true. But this "the akusala has already fallen away" I hear from Acharn Sujin quite often - don't quite get it yet because I often sense grave akusala looming, see it coming, so have trouble understanding how for someone of my limited insight it can be said to have already fallen away. Not to worry, will keep listening and reflecting. Phil #63975 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/5/06 7:22:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi All. > > > > So what is the mind? > > > > It is composed of the 5 aggregates: > > 1) Matter / material / form (it can however be argued that this is the > brain, the container of the Mind), sensory channels/nerve pathways. > > 2) Sensations which is the capacity to feel what is pleasant, unpleasant > or neutral. > > 3) Perception and Memories > > 4) Formation / Intelligence (i.e., organizer, relater, concluder, etc) > > 5) Consciousness / awareness which is the faculty to know. > > > > So what really are these aggregates, their compositions and functions? > > > > Charles DaCosta > > =========================== I would strike # 1 from the list of types of phenomena covered by 'mind'. Material form may be appear as the "object-content of mind", but itself is not mental. It is physical. Form is known, but never a type of knowing. That is why it is not nama. BTW, I prefer in Dhamma conversation to speak more of "form" than "matter", the latter definitely suggesting to me objective, external, material *substance*. Relatedly, one thing that I dislike about Lankavatara-Sutta type philosophical idealism is its implication of the existence of a "mind stuff" or mental substance. I think that any leaning towards substantialism is a deviation from true Dhamma. Also, the Buddha included attention in place of consciousness under 'mind' (nama), which suits me just fine. I think of vi~n~nana as "merely" experiential presence of object, with the various more specific modes of apprehending the object being covered by the rest. In some places, the Buddha distinguishes namarupa from vi~n~nana, though in the sheaves of reeds sutta he asserts their mutual dependency. Another minor matter: I don't like the term 'sensation' to be used as translation for 'vedana'. To me, sensations are (experienced) 5-sense-door rupas, often body-door rupas. Vedanas are activations/instances of the operation of affectively "tasting" object-content as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. With metta, Howard #63976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 8:07 am Subject: what is sati nilovg Dear friends, Lodewijk and I had Dhamma discussion in a restaurant. L: What is satipatthana? I think that I can never understand sati and satipatthana, not in this life. N: Usually we are lost in thoughts, but sometimes we begin to understand that only one dhamma appears through one doorway at a time. We listen to the voices of people, but sometimes we realize that sound is heard. This is different from defining what we hear. L: This is still theory for me, the realization of the truth is far away. N:You cannot do anything to make sati arise. L: I understand this, but the idea of self comes up all the time. N: There is an idea of self who wants to understand what sati is. L: I see that this does not work. N: When sati actually arises one will understand its characteristic. L: First one has to understand what sati is and on the other hand sati will be understood when it arises. It seems a vicious circle. N: There is a whole of many impressions while we are eating. We think of the food, of the people around us who are talking, of the clatter of plates. We are overwhelmed by impressions through the six doors. But sometimes, while we are chewing the food, only one dhamma appears through one doorway, such as flavour or solidity. L: I often hear the expression: there are *only* nama and rupa. I do not like the word only, it seems that concepts we are thinking of are not important. N: The word only indicates that nama and rupa fall away immediately, that there is nothing left of them. We cannot say this of concepts, a person or a table does not arise and then fall away immediately. L: I understand that the object of satipatthana is a paramattha dhamma and I understand that nobody can make sati arise. But I do not have direct understanding of realities. N: That is a good foundation knowledge. Direct understanding is difficult for everybody. We should have patience. L: We should listen, read, study, develop the perfections. We should see the connection between satipatthana and the perfections. We should start again and again. One cannot do more, there is no self who could do anything. ****** Nina. #63977 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 4:03 am Subject: Re: Recall: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/5/06 7:24:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Charles DaCosta would like to recall the message, "[dsg] Mind". > > ===================== Too late, Charles DaCosta!! I've already replied to it! LOLOL! With metta, Howard #63978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul nilovg Dear Scott, I so much appreciate your report on the puja for Andy. What an excellent idea, and it must also be consoling to spend the day in this way. I liked your report on the walk with Dhamma discussion, it had substance. It does not matter that the venerable bhikkhu had other ideas about the Abhidhamma. In a way he was right: the Buddha taught Dhamma, and this is to be found in the whole of the Tipitaka. How good you had so many points to discuss. You can write another post : continuation of Dhamma talk. Nina. Op 5-okt-2006, om 3:23 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Anyway, I'd taken the day of the second anniversary of my wife's death > off of work and arranged to meet with the Venerable. He'd offered to > perform a puja for Andy. #63979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Att.Sarah. HK nilovg Dear Sarah and Azita, thank you for your report. I shall discuss with Lodewijk about the social side you mentioned, he will appreciate this. Nina. Op 5-okt-2006, om 15:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > understanding of dhammas at the present moment as a condition for more > metta, more compassion, more consideration. For example, why get > agitated > and upset about the messed up travel plans when it's all just a > moment of > thinking now? Understanding dhammas means less concern for oneself > and how > badly treated one is and more conditions to be friendly and > appreciative > to staff and so on. #63980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 8:35 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, 85 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha reminded people of the dangers of birth and encouraged them to be mindful, in order to attain the ``deathless'' which is nibbåna. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Eights, chapter VIII, §4) that the Buddha, when he was staying at Nådika, in the Brick Hall, said to the monks: Mindfulness of death, monks, when made become, when developed is very fruitful, of great advantage, merging and ending in the deathless. And how, monks, is it so...? Take the case of a monk, who, when the day declines and night sets in, reflects thus: ``Many indeed are the chances of death for me. A snake or scorpion or a centipede might bite me and might cause my death; that would be a hindrance to me. I might stumble and fall; the food I have eaten might make me ill; bile might convulse me; phlegm choke me; winds (within me) with their scissor-like cuts give me ache; or men or non-humans might attack me and might cause my death. That would be a hindrance to me.'' Monks, that monk must reflect thus: ``Are there any evil and wrong states within me that have not been put away and that would be a hindrance to me were I to die tonight?'' If, monks, on consideration he realize that there are such states... then to put away just those evil and wrong states, an intense resolution, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and self-possession must be made by that monk. Monks, just as a man whose turban is on fire, or whose hair is burning, would make an intense resolution, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and self-possession to put out his (burning) turban or hair; even so, monks, an intense resolution, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and self- possession must be made by that monk to put away just those evil and wrong states. But if that monk, on review, realize that there are no such states within him that have not been put away which would be a hindrance to him, were he to die that night--then let that monk live verily in joy and gladness, training himself day and night in the ways of righteousness. Take the case, monks, of a monk who reflects likewise... when the night is spent and day breaks. He must reflect in the same way... Monks, mindfulness of death when so made become, so developed is very fruitful, of great advantage, merging and ending in the deathless. ****** Nina. #63981 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 8:39 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 66. nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of my letter to Susie) You asked me whether there is a particular usefulness in my trips to Thailand and my visits to Khun Sujin. These are opportunities to meet friends and discuss Dhamma, and I find a good example of someone who practices Dhamma particularly inspiring and helpful. What I just said about not losing opportunities for the development of understanding and for other kinds of kusala, this is practised all the time by Khun Sujin. We can learn from her not to despise any kind of kusala and to use it as a means to decrease clinging to the self, because this is the goal. The events of Khun Sujin's daily life are so ordinary: shopping, playing scrabble with her sisters, taking her father out to luncheon and looking after him, watching the news on T.V. in the evening. This is daily life of a great number of laypeople, and right understanding can be developed no matter what one is doing. It can be practised, and this is proved. When someone needs a little encouragement or has a problem, even a problem in worldly matters, Khun Sujin is always ready to help and speaks the right words at the right time. Long discussions about Dhamma may often be too theoretical. Khun Sujin's own example and just a few words about Dhamma are more helpful. But in between her duties , Khun Sujin has time for reading the scriptures and commentaries, and Sunday morning she spends preparing her radio talks. We can learn from her not to put off things if there is an opportunity to do them now, such as for example studying the teachings and being mindful of realities. 'We never know what will happen tomorrow, or even the next moment', she said. If we realize that each moment arises because of different conditions, and is completely different from preceding moments, and following moments, it will help us to have a greater sense of urgency to study the reality appearing at the present moment. ****** Nina #63982 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 9:28 am Subject: [dsg] What is Mind pgradinarov Dear Charles, In the technical (paribhasika) language of Buddhist philosophy, mind is only the seventh dharma in the vijnana-skandha, i.e., manas. In the other systems of Indian philosophy, it is considered either an independent substance (dravya) demonstrating the highest possible degree of velocity (paramavega) - because of the necessity to have its objects one at a time (this in Nyaya-Vaisesika), or a particular branch in the evolution of the noetic energies (bhutadi vaikarika- ahamkara) that give rise to the sense-organs (indriyas) taken as faculties rather than as material organs (Samkhya-Yoga). In this particular system, citta (consciousness) comprises manas (mind), buddhi (intellect), and ahamkara (the I-factor). Kindest regards, Plamen #63983 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 5:13 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi All. So what is the mind? It is composed of the 5 aggregates: 1) Matter / material / form (it can however be argued that this is the brain, the container of the Mind), sensory channels/nerve pathways. 2) Sensations which is the capacity to feel what is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. 3) Perception and Memories 4) Formation / Intelligence (i.e., organizer, relater, concluder, etc) 5) Consciousness / awareness which is the faculty to know. I have also heard them called "The Five Aggregates of Clinging." This would imply there could be other aggregates of the mind, since these are the related to Clinging and we believe the Mind is more than just "The Clinger." So, either way, a good next step would be to uncover what really are these aggregates, their compositions, interactions, and functions? Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:36 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Hi Charles, --- dacostacharles TELE.DK> wrote: > Hi all, > > I want to start a thread describing the Mind. From its components > (including their functions and interactions) to the Minds responces > to different stimuli. And yes I know this is a tall order. ... S: So let's start at the beginning. What do you understand by Mind? <..> #63984 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 5:24 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence dacostacharles HI Sarah, "Entitles" and "rupas" are just terms/concepts we use to label something and thus giving us the ability to talk about the same thing (we both know the label and thus the .). Would you really limit all non-human sentient beings to having 6 senses only? Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:13 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence Hi Charles D, --- Charles DaCosta TELE.DK> wrote: > I agree that when we THINK about a tree, it only exists in our > imagination/mind (the THOUGHT that is); the ENTITIES we call trees exist > out-side our minds; and we can only EXPERIENCE these entities (i.e., > trees) > via the 6 sense-gates (as objects of the gates). .... S: Yes, we're getting closer and closer:-). The only modification I'd make is to your phrase about the ENTITIES. Only the rupas arising and falling away (which are taken for trees) exist outside our minds. .... > > Now that I better understand your language, I can say I think we are on > the > same page. However, it is widely accepted that there are other ways of > sensing and sensed-objects that humans are not normal for humans. .... S: For whatever sentient being, objects can only be experienced though the 5 sense-doors or mind-door. Seeing can only occur through the eye-door, hearing through the ear-door and so on. Of course, not all beings have all senses. <...> #63985 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 4:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul ken_aitch Hi Scott, ------ S: > Oops. There could be more but I've run on too long. ------ I agree with Nina: we want a follow up. Never worry about running on too long at DSG. If anyone is bored (which is most unlikely) they can read faster - or even scroll down the page. It is only by unnecessarily posting large blocks of other people's material that we incur the wrath of the moderators. :-) Ken H #63986 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 540- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah, The text: The abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, arise only one at a time, but when lokuttara cittas arise, all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara cittas, and then nibbåna is the object. Thus, the object of the abstinences which are lokuttara is different from the object of the abstinences which are of the sense-sphere. The abstinences which are lokuttara are the right speech, right action and right livelihood of the supramundane eightfold Path. Han: What is the object of the abstinences which are of the sense-sphere, please? Respectfully, Han #63987 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 7:04 pm Subject: Re: what is sati philofillet Hi Nina and Lodewijk and all > L: What is satipatthana? I think that I can never understand sati and > satipatthana, not in this life. I feel the same way as Lodewijk. Really have no understanding yet of what sati is. That's ok - it'll come, or it won't. In this lifetime or another. Sati cannot be understood (or experienced) by thinking harder about it. No way. > > N: Usually we are lost in thoughts, but sometimes we begin to > understand that only one dhamma appears through one doorway at a > time. We listen to the voices of people, but sometimes we realize > that sound is heard. This is different from defining what we hear. This is very well said and I can relate to it to some small degree. But still don't know whether what is involved here is sati, panna, yoniso manasikara, or all of them, or...that's ok. You can't hurry this sort of understanding. I guess in this case there is yoniso manasikara assisting sati, but not panna since there is not "defining what we hear." Does panna always "define what we hear" (for example) to some degree, albeit it not in words like a dictionary definition? When there is sati without panna, it is sati, but when there is sati with panna it is satipatthana? I have a question for Lodewijk. Hello Lodewijk, I have listened to you reading the perfections, and it is very inspiring. But for the last six months or so I seem to have lost interest in the perfections. It seems to me that appreciating any moment of kusala is enough, and by thinking of kusala as a perfection it brings on to much lobha for me, or too much conceit, or something. Why is it important to think of perfections? Why not appreciate any moment of kusala and leave the perfections to arise or not according to the kusala that is developed moment by moment? Phil #63988 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 12:03 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 541- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd We read in the Atthasåliní (II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 219, 220) about the right speech which is lokuttara, that it does not allow the commission of wrong speech, that it cuts off the base of misconduct and fulfils the path-factor. The same is said about right action which cuts off the base of bodily misconduct and fulfils the path-factor, and about right livelihood which cuts off the base of wrong livelihood and fulfils the path-factor(1). Thus, in cutting off the conditions for wrong conduct the three abstinences which are lokuttara fulfil their functions as path-factors. Defilements are eradicated subsequently at the different stages of enlightenment. When the path-consciousness, the magga-citta, of the sotåpanna arises, the bases of the three kinds of wrong action which are killing, stealing and sexual misconduct, and of the kind of wrong speech which is lying and also the base of wrong livelihood are cut off. The kinds of wrong speech which are slandering, harsh speech and idle talk have not been eradicated, but they cannot have the intensity anymore of akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) which can produce an unhappy rebirth. The sakadågåmí, the person who has attained the second stage of enlightenment, has not eradicated these kinds of speech, but at this stage the tendencies to such speech have decreased. The anågåmí, the person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the tendency to slandering and harsh speech but not yet the tendency to idle talk. The tendency to idle talk has only been eradicated by the arahat. We may not lie, slander or utter harsh speech, but still our speech may not be motivated by kusala citta which is generous and intent on helping others or on explaining the Dhamma to others. Instead we may indulge in idle, useless talk. We may, for example, chat with akusala citta about accidents or other events which happen during the day. However, we can also talk with kusala citta about events such as accidents; for example, we may talk about an accident in order to remind ourselves and others of the shortness of life. Idle talk is done with akusala citta. The monk should train himself to speak only about subjects which lead to the goal, such as fewness of wishes and mental development, and he should not indulge in idle talk. A layman does not lead the monk’s life, but even while one talks about useless things with akusala citta there can, in between, be moments of awareness of nåma and rúpa. The arahat has no more conditions for the laylife and no more tendencies to idle, useless talk. *** 1) See Dhammasangaùi, Part I, Chapter V, §299-301. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63989 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind pgradinarov Dear Charles, > it can however be argued that this is the > brain, the container of the Mind), sensory channels/nerve pathways. Please keep in mind, that Indian systems are "brainless." Mind is not in any way connected to the physical brain (mastiska), it rather resides in the heart. Kindest regards, Plamen #63990 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Cetasikas' study corner 541- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina and others, I read in the text: [The anagami, the person who hag attained the third stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the tendency to slandering and harsh speech but not yet the tendency to idle talk The tendency to idle talk has only been eradicated by the arahat.] In this connection, it reminds me of another word “vaasanaa.” Vaasanaa means that which remains in the mind the tendencies of the past. It is said that vaasanaa can be eradicated only by the Buddhas. During the Buddha’s time, there was one high-caste Brahmin who became an arahant. Although he had become an arahant, he often called other bhikkhus as “vasala” meaning a low person. He was used to that usage before he became an arahant addressing to low-caste persons, and that tendency remained in him. He had no kilesa (no dosa or maana) in his mind, but it was only that he could not get rid of that vaasanaa. Respectfully, Han #63991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Cetasikas' study corner 541- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas nilovg Dear Han, Yes, I remember this story. There was no akusala citta motivating his speech. We always have to consider the citta and we cannot always tell of someone else what kind of citta motivates his speech. Recently we had a discussion on this list about a mother who scolded her child, but with a gentle heart. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 10:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Dear Sarah, Nina and others, > > I read in the text: > > [The anagami, the person who hag attained the third > stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the tendency to > slandering and harsh speech but not yet the tendency > to idle talk The tendency to idle talk has only been > eradicated by the arahat.] > > In this connection, it reminds me of another word > “vaasanaa.” Vaasanaa means that which remains in the > mind the tendencies of the past. It is said that > vaasanaa can be eradicated only by the Buddhas. During > the Buddha’s time, there was one high-caste Brahmin > who became an arahant. Although he had become an > arahant, he often called other bhikkhus as “vasala” > meaning a low person. He was used to that usage before > he became an arahant addressing to low-caste persons, > and that tendency remained in him. He had no kilesa > (no dosa or maana) in his mind, but it was only that > he could not get rid of that vaasanaa. > > > #63992 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art sarahprocter... Hi James, Jon (& all), --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: . > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html#why > > > > Thanks for the sutta quote. But it doesn't say that ordaining as a monk > is the best thing for everyone sincerely interested in the development > of insight or anything like that. .... S: Following on from my other comments on the Sona Udana and commentary, I read it more carefully and it turns out that: a) Sona was a supporter of the great Ven MahaKaccana and was used to listening to the dhamma from him. "Utterly shocked on account of this, he dwelled filled with endeavour at (the prospect of) Dhamma-practice (dhammacariyaaya).' b)After reviewing the the Dhamma over a course of time and recollecting some petas he'd seen and been shocked by, he appreciated how 'the dukkha of samsara presented itself as something fearful in the extreme'. c) He wished to ordain and went the next morning to be MahaKaccana to allow him to do so as it is 'a thing not easily done by one indwelling the home, (namely) to follow the Brahmacariya absolutely fulfilled, absolutely purified, conch-smooth;'. d) However, MahaKaccayana's response was negative 'having given consideration to what extent maturity of knowledge might be his, in waiting for such maturity of knowledge, discouraged that yearning for going forth by way of "A thing hard to do" and so on.' So here we have an example of a householder with keen interest in the Dhamma, living alone, a supported of one of the Buddha's key disciples, wishing to go forth but being discouraged because his wisdom was not strong enough. e) Sona is reminded of some of the hardships of going forth and instead told to devote himself to the Teachings as a layman. He is told this so as to 'render himself fit for right practice' because of 'his difficulty in abandoning sense-desires on account of knowledge not being mature, not so as to discourage that yearning for going forth.' [Is our knowledge 'mature'? What about our attachment to sense-desires as a result of lack of such maturity? And we don't even have the opportunity to listen to one of the Buddha's key disciples!] f) A second time later, Sona had the same idea of going forth, but again it was rejected. g) On the third occasion, his wisdom was considered 'mature' enough and he was permitted to ordain. Three years later he took higher ordination. h) However, he was said to still a putthujana (worldling)when he went to see the Buddha and stayed with him. At this time it says he recited the chapter of 8s (from Sutta Nipata)'as one experiencing both their meaning and their Dhamma'. By the end of the recitation he 'established vipassana and, as he was comprehending the formations, in due course reached arahantship.' It was said that this was the Buddha's purpose in having him share the same hut. (Others said, however, that he had become a sotapanna before taking higher ordination and then developed higher attainments including the 6 abhinnas before he visited the Buddha.) ..... Anyway, the point of adding these details is just to indicate that even householders who supported the Sangha, were devoted to the Dhamma, without family restraints and who greatly desired to ordain, were not necessarily encouraged to do so if they weren't considered 'mature in knowledge'. Thanks for the interesting thread and Udana. Metta, Sarah ======= #63993 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 540- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas nilovg Dear Han, Just as in the case of metta, the abstinences concern living beings. There is the intention not to hurt or harm them. When we consider what the object of citta is at such moments, well, there are different objects in such situations. One takes the welfare of other beings to heart. This does not mean that you have to think much when abstaining from evil. Actually, sati arises and it does not waste the opportunity for kusala. Its nature is guarding the six doorways. At such a moment also confidence in kusala and many other good qualities cooperate. When right understanding of the level of satipatthana accompanies the kusala citta this kusala citta is realized as a conditioned dhamma that is not self. Then there is adhi- siila, higher siila. Thus we see that there are different cittas having different objects: living beings, or the characteristics of kusala citta or cetasikas, or the characteristic of non-self. At such moments there is no need to think of all this, it can occur because of the right conditions. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 2:41 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > What is the object of the abstinences which are of the > sense-sphere, please? #63994 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta sarahprocter... Hi Plamen (Howard & all), --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > Dear Howard, > > > The notion of storehouse consciousness > > (alayavijnana), for example, is not at all to my liking, striking me > as > > substantialist and completely unnecessary. > > In alayavijnana the Vijnanavadins only revitalized the old-timer > bhavanga-citta and made it a regular paramartha-dharma, nothing more. ... S: I'm not sure..... I tend to agree with Howard here from the little I know. Please see a post I wrote quite a while ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15902 In it I question some of the comments made by Walpola Rahula on “Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness” http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha195.htm in which he also refers to some Theravada sources Let me know if you have any comment on what I wrote. A bit of a 'hot potato', so I may leave it there:-). In any case, if your understanding is that there are just bhavanga cittas in between sense and mind-door processes and whilst in deep sleep - nothing lasting and no store of any kind - then we understand in the same way and it doesn't matter what names are used or what others understand:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #63995 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: killing. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, 2 brief anecdotes I'd like to add- --- Phil wrote: > Mosquitos are another matter, especially when one is pestering > Naomi. .... S: 1)I have a sweet, kind, calm-looking Tai chi teacher until a mosquito lands on her. They send her into a frenzy, she stops her tai chi movements and it's impossible to avoid noticing the dosa rather than any lobha as she swats at them.... I used to have dosa about her actions -- it used to really bother me when students or adults acted in a cruel way to insects. I almost used to think it was good to be bothered about it. Nowadays it bothers me a lot less. Again, everyone has their own way, their own kind of kilesa and kamma. What's the point about getting bothered about the others' and just feeling more uneasy or annoyed? 2)We have a good surfer friend who has been extremely kind to us at the beach. He's an expert, but is so tolerant of newbies like ourselves and played a key role in encouraging us to take to the waves. He's also a devoted family man and I'd never known him anything but relaxed, tolerant and easy-going, until.... There was a big scene at the beach when we arrived the other day. The police were out in numbers, an ambulance and lots of commotion. Apparently a Chinese lady had been upset by our friend's playful dog and had hit back by abusing his Japanese pregnant wife who was meant to be in charge of the dog, calling her a 'pig'. Our friend was so incensed that his wife was abused that he had got really lost his cool. The Chinese lady had then called the police and complained about being attacked by the dog and we arrived to watch the rest of the circus. Anyway, just examples of how behaviour can change so rapidly when the 'weak spot' is found. Just like the story of Kali (in MN 21) who decided to test her gentle, kind mistress, Vedehika by getting up later and later every day until Vedihika snapped and knocked her over the head with a rolling-pin. Just a ramble.... I enjoyed yours as usual:-) Metta, Sarah ====== #63996 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 540- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. Can we not also think in a different way? When there is no person to kill there is no opportunity for abstaining from killing. When there is nothing to steal there is no opportunity for abstaining from stealing. (Like there is no opportunity for abstention when the citta is jhanacitta.) Therefore, can a person who could be killed be not an object for abstaining from killing? Can a property that could be stolen be not an object for abstaining from stealing? And so on. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Thus we see that there are different cittas > having different objects: living beings, or the > characteristics of kusala citta or cetasikas, or the > characteristic of non-self. At such moments there is > no need to think of all this, it can occur because > of the right conditions. > Nina. #63997 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: killing. philofillet Hi Sarah > 1)I have a sweet, kind, calm-looking Tai chi teacher until a mosquito > lands on her. They send her into a frenzy, she stops her tai chi movements > and it's impossible to avoid noticing the dosa rather than any lobha as > she swats at them.... Yeah, the kids go crazy when there's a fly in the room. But since I'm their teacher, I have to get the fly out. It's my profesional duty, which I respect. As for mosquitos, it's my kilesa, but I doubt I will hesitate to kill one if it's at me in the middle of the night - not in this lifetime, no way. (but who knows.) I think it would be a bit silly for a busy worldling who has to work the next day to sacrifice sleep and allow hime or herself to be bloodsucked for a Dhamma ideal. And it's a marital duty to look after Naomi's wellbeing. We are who we are and where we are and there is no need to imitate monks. That's my take on it - a good example of wrong view, but so be it. I'll pay the price! I'd better not go on one of the India trips or I'll cause a turmoil. I also have a habit of slapping beggars, you see. Phil p.s it'll be interesting to see if I have a different take on this in a few years! #63998 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta pgradinarov Dear Sarah, > In it I question some of the comments made by Walpola Rahula on > "Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness" > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha195.htm > in which he also refers to some Theravada sources > > Let me know if you have any comment on what I wrote. A bit of a 'hot > potato', so I may leave it there:-). I kind of cyclically return to this article every three years :-) This time, however, prompted by your comments, I found that the fourfold alaya does not actually refer to the technically accepted dharma of alayavijnana, referring only to the sevenfold vijnana as an object of liking, fondness, delight, and attachment. Bhavanga-citta and the proper alayavijnana - being kind of unconsious in the Western sense of the word, cannot be such an object. One can be fond of sleeping, but analyzing one's fondness to deep sleep without dreams, we see that the pleasure is associated with the post-sleep realization/feeling 'I slept well', rather than with the process of dreamless sleeping (susupti). It is this postapperception that we get attached to, which, of course, is not bhavanga-citta. The Buddhist Yoga stand to Alaya could be - very roughly and very schematically - reconstructed and summarized in the following way: 1. There is a continuum (alaya) of wake life of consciousness which flows like a river of feelings, perceptions, and cognitions regulated by this or that samskara. Let's denote this first alaya as manifested alaya of which we are fond, etc. 2. There is a continuum (sota, santana) of interlink cittas, which, taken collectively, is the container (alaya) of all subliminal bijas and vasanas (traces) of the wake life consiousness. We can call it sabija- or even sarvabijaka-alaya consisting of individual alayavijnanas (bhavanga-cittas). 3. And, finally, there is an alaya which is purified (devoid - both naturally and by means of pratisamkhya-nirodha) from all seeds and impressions, and hence is the nirbija-alaya, shining forth and aboriginally spotless. It is this kind of alaya (not the second one) that - though uncomprehensible (anabhilabhya and anabhilapya) - is sometimes elliptically said to be the pure, blissful, and unchanging (dhruva) Dharmin, whose nature is the effulgent nondual (advayam) citta taken as vijnana-matra. Kindest regards, Plamen #63999 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Detachment sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Detachment in the Buddhist sense should lead to contentment and > unconditional happiness. .... S: Yes! Good comment. It is attachment which leads to discontent. Metta, Sarah > The following is based on Sarah Abbott post: > The monk and other noble ones are: > > a) content with any kind of robes; > b) content with any kind of alms food; > c) content with any kind of lodging; > d) delighted with the development (of meditation); > e) delighted with the abandoning (of defilements). > > And one who is thus skilful, not lax, clearly aware and mindful, is true > to > the ancient, original Ariyan lineage.