#64000 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thank you for your detailed and interesting report on your time with Ven Seelananda. I was particularly glad to read the following: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Anyway, I'd taken the day of the second anniversary of my wife's death > off of work and arranged to meet with the Venerable. He'd offered to > perform a puja for Andy. James would be pleased, I thought. At any > rate, this morning I joined him and he lead me through the ceremony. > Luckily I had memorised the stanzas in the going-for-refuge thingy. > It was cool; I'd never chanted anything with anyone before. He > discussed pu~n~na, death, and was very kind. .... S: I think this was very appropriate. Very nice. Also: > We found > a middle ground when we both agreed that the only word to describe the > Buddha's teachings - not philosophy, not religion - was Dhamma. .... S: Yes, it doesn't matter whether we call it Abhidhamma or Dhamma - it's the same. It's not a particular text, but what is appearing now, what is arising and falling away now, whatever language we use. Thanks again, Scott. I'm sure it was a memorable occasion for you - and probably for him too. He's probably not used to being questioned on hadaya, citta and so on:-). How did you find the ceremony and puja for Andy? What about your discussions on punna and death? I'm sure it was special and the dana for the Venerable was very appropriate too. Metta, Sarah ======== #64001 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > James: Again, I see this as a non-issue. If the person concentrates > on the kasina without the presence of kusala, jhana will not arise. > If the person concentrates on the kasina with kusala, jhana will > arise. So? What's your point? To my understanding, there is no such thing as 'concentration on a kasina with kusala', as there is no kusala in concentration per se (concentration is a mental factor that takes the ethical quality of the consciousness it accompanies). The development of samatha spoken of in the Vism requires, I believe, that the kammatthana (object of samatha consciousness) be contemplated in a kusala way, that is to say, with some level of understanding (panna). Jon #64002 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Continuation of Dhamma talk scottduncan2 Dear All, (Thanks Nina and Ken H. for your kind words of encouragement.) It is interesting to note that one of the things to have come out of the few hours I spent with the Venerable Seelananda sort of arose as I was sitting alone in the sun a short while after I parted with him. I think this demonstrates one aspect as to why a kalyaana-mitta, or perhaps talking of Dhamma, is a beneficial factor. Conditioned by experiences during the puja - which was, as I understood and experienced it, first a mindfulness or at least awareness of gratitude for the Buddha's teachings, then an awareness of the happiness that arises when contemplating this; this happiness arising with the offering, I was given to understand, is what is known as pu~n~na - and by the earnest discussion of Dhamma it seemed that there was a rather deep consolidation occuring within me. As I sat I felt again how happy I am to have had the Dhamma arise for me. I felt a real appreciation of the teachings of the Buddha and a sense of wonder that out of death and sorrow can come such a beautiful thing. I felt grateful to Andy for her part in this. It was a pleasant sort of moment, and, like all such (and unpleasant too) it faded. I'm also recalling a moment during the walk when the Venerable was differentiating citta, vi~n~nana, and mano. He was suggesting that citta was related to blood somehow, and that mano was meant to refer to consciousness associated with the brain, that is the meat in the head. This is where I was confused momentarily and wondered if these were his own musings on things, since I had not heard or read it in quite this fashion. This was the point at which I asked if he was referring to heart-base or hadaya-vatthu. It struck me that a language problem might have been responsible for this oddness of expression. I think he may have been on about a pet theory of his. Whether he meant hadaya-vatthu or was just mentioning a pet-theory about location of hadaya-vatthu (which as I understand has not been disclosed), I found myself thinking about the place of one's own ideas in all this. Fresh from discussions about "my insight" vs "only formations know formations," I found myself consolidating again something I try to do as I learn, and that is, stay away from my own ideas. Sincerely, Scott. #64003 From: s.billard@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:46 am Subject: To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 Hi all, I am reading Abhidamma in daily life here : And I read : "The citta which sees perceives only visible object; there is not yet like or dislike. The feeling which accompanies this type of citta is indifferent feeling. After seeing-consciousness has fallen away, other cittas arise and there may be cittas which dislike the object. The feeling which accompanies this type of citta is unpleasant feeling" As I am translating this chapter in french, I wonder if there is not an error or a shorcut, as it is written "cittas which dislike the object". For what I understand citta doesn't like or dislike, liking or dislinking is cetasika's job right ? would "there may be cittas accompagniated with disliking or liking (cetasikasà for the object" be a more correct formulation ? Sebastien #64004 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thank you. S: "Yes, it doesn't matter whether we call it Abhidhamma or Dhamma - it's the same. It's not a particular text, but what is appearing now, what is arising and falling away now, whatever language we use." Yeah, this is how I came to view it as well. In fact, the moment at which I realised this was rather cool. I was aware of some anxiety or restlessness about this perceived difference of view. The sense I have of Dhamma as expressed in the Abhidhamma, that is, it is all Dhamma, had not until that moment been articulated within me. I just felt dismayed about this difference of opinion. At the point at which it came together, the Venerable was saying that the Dhamma was not "religion" or "philosophy," that these were not words used by the Buddha to refer to his teachings. At this moment I interrupted him to say that the name for it was "Dhamma." He concurred. It was just then that I felt this anxious or restless feeling evaporate and felt instead another feeling arise which was more peaceful and I realised then that I knew what I meant and how I saw Abhidhamma in relation to Dhamma, or it came to me clearly the way I saw it just then. This moment was conditioned by the persistence in questioning, and my hopefully respectful refusal to acquiesce to the Venerable's stand without knowing more of his reasons. S: "...I'm sure it was a memorable occasion for you - and probably for him too. He's probably not used to being questioned on hadaya, citta and so on:-)." It was very memorable and no, I didn't get the sense that he was used to being peppered with pointed questions. S: "How did you find the ceremony and puja for Andy? What about your discussions on punna and death? I'm sure it was special and the dana forthe Venerable was very appropriate too." I found the ceremony to be outside of my realm of experience until then, to be sort of exciting and weird, to be sort of full of wonder in the sense of, "I wonder how this literally effects beings in other realms." On death the Venerable made one rather memorable off-hand comment when he said that really, when one considers the Dhamma, one ought more to grieve at the moment of someone's birth and cry tears for this new becoming, rather than at death. As to pu~n~na, if I followed this, it is the happiness that arises after doing wholesome acts that is subject to being "shared." He said that this was the only "thing" related to kamma that need not remain one's own. With loving kindness, Scott. #64005 From: s.billard@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 Oh and here is my translation for french readers of this part (is it correct) : "Citta n'apparaît jamais seul. Par exemple, la sensation (vedana en pali) est un cetasika qui apparaît avec chaque citta. Citta ne fait que connaître ou expérimenter les objets : citta ne ressent pas. Mais vedana a la fonction de ressentir. La sensation peut être agréable ou désagréable. Même quand nous ne ressentons ni plaisir ni déplaisir, il y a toujours la sensation : cette sensation est alors neutre, ou indifférente. Vedana est toujours présent : il n'y a pas un instant de citta sans sensation. Par exemple, quand la conscience visuelle apparaît, la sensation apparaît en même temps que cette conscience (citta). Le citta qui voit ne fait qu'expérimenter les objets visibles, il n'y a pas encore de sensation agréable ou désagréable à ce stade : la sensation qui accompagne ce moment de conscience est indifférente. Une fois que la conscience visuelle a disparu, d'autre cittas apparaissent qui peuvent éventuellement être accompagnés de sensations désagréables." > "The citta which sees perceives only visible object; there is not yet like or > dislike. The feeling which accompanies this type of citta is indifferent > feeling. After seeing-consciousness has fallen away, other cittas arise and > there may be cittas which dislike the object. The feeling which accompanies > this type of citta is unpleasant feeling" #64006 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:18 am Subject: Vap Poya Day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Vap Poya day is the full-moon of October. This holy day celebrates the end of the Bhikkhu's three months rains retreat and marks the Kathina month of robes , where lay people donate a set of robes to the Sangha. On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbana: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here. A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The True Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html ----- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. Friendship is the Greatest ... Composed for the purpose of Gladdening Good People! <....> #64007 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" scottduncan2 S: "...Une fois que la conscience visuelle a disparu, d'autre cittas apparaissent qui peuvent �ventuellement �tre accompagn�s de sensations d�sagr�ables." Bonjour Sebastien, La ou vous avez mis "d'autre cittas apparaissent qui peuvent eventuellement etre accompagnes de..." je pense qu'il est mieux si vous mettez "qui sont accompagnes de..." Le citta a ce moment la est deja accompagne par une connaisance de sensations desagreable ou agreable. Le mot "eventuellement" n'est pas exactement approprie, a mon avis. Pardonnez-moi mes fautes de grammaire. Scott. Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (133) #64008 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien & Scott (& Nina), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > La ou vous avez mis "d'autre cittas apparaissent qui peuvent > eventuellement etre accompagnes de..." je pense qu'il est mieux si > vous mettez "qui sont accompagnes de..." Le citta a ce moment la est > deja accompagne par une connaisance de sensations desagreable ou > agreable. Le mot "eventuellement" n'est pas exactement approprie, a > mon avis. > > Pardonnez-moi mes fautes de grammaire. .... S: Well it impressed me with or without any mistakes. How about a little summary in English highlighting the point in question too (with the original sentence from ADL)? It's interesting that 'sensations' are used in French for feelings without any problem, I presume. Howard and Nina were having a discussion about the use of sensations in English and whether we use the term to refer to what is experienced through the body-sense as in 'the sensations all over the body' or whether we use the term to refer to vedana/feelings as in 'the sensation of feeling happy'. I think we use both 'sensations' and 'feelings' in ordinary language to refer to many different things including both what is experienced through the body-sense (rupas) and vedana and also other cetasikas such as anger, delight and so on, plus a whole range of thinking about various concepts, such as 'I had the sensation/feeling of being lost'.... Translation must be very difficult. I think it's a great idea to post any short passages you're unsure of, with the English as well and invite comments and discussion. I think it helps us all to consider the real meaning further. Metta, Sarah ====== #64009 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sorry. > > La ou vous avez mis "d'autre cittas apparaissent qui peuvent > > eventuellement etre accompagnes de..." je pense qu'il est mieux si > > vous mettez "qui sont accompagnes de..." Le citta a ce moment la est > > deja accompagne par une connaisance de sensations desagreable ou > > agreable. Le mot "eventuellement" n'est pas exactement approprie, a > > mon avis. > > > > Pardonnez-moi mes fautes de grammaire. > .... > S: Well it impressed me with or without any mistakes. How about a little > summary in English highlighting the point in question too (with the > original sentence from ADL)? I said that to use "eventually" in reference to citta was not quite right since in a series the next citta has its own characteristics. Citta doesn't stay around long enough for an eventual change in its given characteristics. This is for the next and the next, as conditioned by the preceding. I'm barely bilingual.. Scott. #64010 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana a... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 10/6/06 7:30:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > >James: Again, I see this as a non-issue. If the person concentrates > >on the kasina without the presence of kusala, jhana will not arise. > >If the person concentrates on the kasina with kusala, jhana will > >arise. So? What's your point? > > To my understanding, there is no such thing as 'concentration on a > kasina with kusala', as there is no kusala in concentration per se > (concentration is a mental factor that takes the ethical quality of the > consciousness it accompanies). ---------------------------------- Howard: To "concentrate with kusala" means to have kusala mindstates in which concentration is a strong factor. It's not a matter of the concentration itself being kusala or akusala, as I see it. The concentration is concentration. ------------------------------------ > > The development of samatha spoken of in the Vism requires, I believe, > that the kammatthana (object of samatha consciousness) be contemplated > in a kusala way, that is to say, with some level of understanding (panna). > > Jon > ====================== Jon, this last makes no sense to me. The Buddha taught kasina meditation as a useful means of attaining jhanas. The kasinas are pa~n~natti, not paramattha dhammas. You always say that "wisdom cannot know" concepts. So, how would there be contemplation of a kasina with pa~n~na if that is indeed so? Exactly what are you asserting here, Jon? With metta, Howard #64011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 103, 104 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 103, 104. Intro: In the preceding section the Visuddhimagga explained that ignorance is a condition for formations of merit. Ignorance, when it arises can be an object of insight. Moreover, it can condition kusala citta by way of natural decisive-support-condition, when one, in order to overcome ignorance, performs kusala. Or, when someone who does not see the danger of rebirth performs kusala with the aim to have a happy rebirth. In that case ignorance is also a natural decisive- support-condition for kusala. In the following section the Visuddhimagga explains in which ways ignorance is a condition for formations of demerit. It can be object- condition for citta rooted in lobha. While one enjoys being ignorant and gives importance to it, ignorance conditions akusala citta by way of predominance-condition of object or by way of object decisive support-condition. Or, when ignorance arises with akusala javanacitta it conditions that citta by being its root and by way of many other conditions. Also, the first akusala javana-citta with ignorance conditions the second javana- citta and so on by way of proximity and in many other ways. Text Vis.103: 'And for the next in many ways': it is a condition for formations of demerit in many ways. How? As object condition at the time of the arising of greed, etc., contingent upon ignorance; ---------- N: The Tiika adds to ‘ at the time of the arising of greed, etc.’ : greed (raaga), wrong view, doubt, restlessness and unhappy feeling. Thus, when all these akusala cetasikas arise with akusala citta, ignorance can condition them by way of object-condition. The Tiika then specifies that ignorance is object-condition for akusala citta at the time of enjoying when greed etc. based on ignorance arises. One likes to be ignorant of the consequences and dangers of akusala. ------------ Text Vis.: as object-predominance and object-decisive-support respectively at the times of giving importance [to ignorance] and enjoying [it]; --------- N: The Tiika states that ignorance is predominance-condition of object and object decisive support-condition when one enjoys ignorance that accompanies attachment and wrong view. One highly esteems it and gives preponderance to it. Citta rooted in attachment, lobha-muulacitta, can be accompanied by wrong view. One may cling to the wrong view of self and this is conditioned by ignorance that accompanies it. Ignorance that accompanies cittas rooted in dosa can only be object- condition, and not predominance-condition of object or object decisive support-condition. Dosa-muulacitta is accompanied by unhappy feeling and thus the citta and accompanying cetasikas are not an object one esteems and gives preponderance to. Ignorance accompanying moha-muulacitta cannot be predominance-condition of object or object decisive support-condition either. ---------- Text Vis.: as decisive-support in one who, being confused by ignorance and unaware of danger, kills living things, etc.; --------- N: Ignorance arisen in the past is accumulated as a latent tendency and in this way it can condition the arising of ignorance at present by way of natural decisive-support-condition. It conceals the danger of akusala and thus there are conditions for committing all kinds of akusala kamma patha, such as killing, stealing etc. ----------- Text Vis.: as proximity, contiguity, proximity-decisive-support, repetition, absence, and disappearance, for the second impulsion and those that follow; ------- N: The first akusala javanacitta conditions the next javanacitta and so on by way of proximity, contiguity and proximity-decisive-support. These conditions pertain to each citta that conditions the arising of the next citta. As to proximity-decisive-support-condition, this is almost the same as proximity-condition, but the teaching of this condition emphasizes the aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force of the preceding citta which is a cogent reason for the arising of the succeeding citta. As to repetition-condition, this pertains to javanacittas that succeed one another. By this condition the akusala citta is succeeded by the same type of akusala citta. These akusala cittas arise repeatedly; there are usually seven types of javanacittas. As to absence-condition and disappearance-condition, this is the same as proximity-condition. The citta that has fallen away conditions the arising of the next citta. It must have fallen away, since there can be only one citta at a time. ---------- Text Vis.: as root-cause, conascence, mutuality, support, association, presence, and non-disappearance, in one doing anything unprofitable. It is thus a condition in many ways. -------- N: The Tiika states that for the sake of summarizing the text states: ‘ in one doing anything unprofitable’. Here the conditions are summed up that pertain to ignorance at the moment one is committing evil. Akusala citta has akusala roots, and each akusala citta has moha cetasika as root. Ignorance conditions akusala citta by way of root- condition. It also conditions akusala citta by way of conascence and mutuality, it conditions the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies and they all condition each other mutually. Ignorance conditions the citta and cetasikas it accompanies by support or dependence (nissaya) and association (sampayutta). Ignorance is a support for the akusala cittas it accompanies. It also conditions them by way of presence, and non-disappearance, it arises and falls away together with the citta and other cetasikas it accompanies. ********** Visuddhimagga 104: in this section it is explained that ignorance conditions the imperturbable, aruupa-jhaanacitta. ---------- Text Vis. 104. 'But for the last kind only once': it is reckoned as a condition in one way, namely, as decisive-support condition only, for formations of the imperturbable. But its relation as decisive-support condition should be understood as stated under formations of merit. ----------- N: Ignorance conditions the formations of the imperturbable, the aruupaavacara kusala cittas, by way of natural decisive-support condition. The Tiika adds that just as in the case of the formations of merit, someone who sees the danger of rebirth develops aruupa- jhaana because he wants to overcome ignorance. And also one may develop aruupa-jhaana because one aspires for a happy rebirth. The result of aruupa-jhaana is birth in an aruupa-brahma plane, a plane where there is no ruupa. One aspires for such a rebirth when one does not see the danger of rebirth. ----------- Conclusion: We are reminded of the danger of ignorance that conditions all kinds of akusala. Ignorance is dormant in each citta as a latent tendency and it can at any time condition the arising of akusala citta even of a strong degree, motivating evil deeds. This may happen quite unexpectantly. At such moments one does not see the danger of akusala that brings unhappy results. One enjoys having ignorance and there is no fear of its consequences. One accumulates ignorance and other kinds of akusala so that they are bound to arise again and again. We read in the text of the Tiika that ignorance is predominance- condition of object and object decisive support-condition when one enjoys ignorance that accompanies attachment and wrong view. One may be carried away by clinging to the self. At such a moment ignorance conceals the danger of wrong view. The Tiika emphasizes that one at such a moment enjoys wrong view and ignorance. There are conditions for the arising again and again of lobha-muulacittas accompanied by ignorance and wrong view. Each akusala javanacitta causes the arising of the next one by way of repetition-condition and by way of several other conditions. When we see that ignorance conditions akusala citta in many different ways we can come to realize that it is deeply rooted. It is difficult to see the danger of rebirth so long as clinging to rebirth has not been eradicated. As we have seen, ignorance can condition kusala when one develops it in order to have a happy rebirth. We are more inclined to accumulation than to eradication. So long as there is ignorance there are conditions for continuing in the cycle of birth and death. Even at this moment ignorance can condition akusala kamma as well as kusala kamma. The development of satipa.t.thaana is the only way to eventually overcome ignorance. Ignorance is the root of all evil, and when we realize this, we are motivated to develop right understanding of naama and ruupa as they appear in daily life. Through satipa.t.thaana we learn not to take akusala, kusala or any reality which arises for self and to perform kusala with the aim to have less defilements. ********** Nina. #64012 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" nilovg Dear Sebastien, You translate very well in French, a good job. We can say: citta dislikes, because citta and cetasikas are closely associated and mutually condition one another. Unpleasant feeling affects them all. When we analyse the different functions we can differentiate between citta and cetasikas and define: citta with dislike. But we can also speak more generally and say: citta likes, citta dislikes. We do not have to specify all the time. Another example. When we say vipaakacitta we also include the conascent cetasikas. We do not say all the time: vipaakacitta and vipaaka cetasikas. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 13:46 heeft s.billard@... het volgende geschreven: > As I am translating this chapter in french, I wonder if there is > not an error or > a shorcut, as it is written "cittas which dislike the object". For > what I > understand citta doesn't like or dislike, liking or dislinking is > cetasika's > job right ? would "there may be cittas accompagniated with > disliking or liking > (cetasikasà for the object" be a more correct formulation ? #64013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" nilovg Dear Sebastien, the text you are using is from an old edition that was used in Thailand. As I said, the hard cover 1997, Triple Gem Press, sold by Wisdom Books , ISBN 17 7 PS, is the last edition and there are differences. Especially in the last two chapters. Zolag web has it on line, but lost all the footnotes. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 13:46 heeft s.billard@... het volgende geschreven: > I am reading Abhidamma in daily life here : > #64014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:54 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 86 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 12 The Function of Bhavanga (Life-Continuum) There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Is there at those moments still citta? Even when there are no sense- impressions and no thinking there must be citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta. Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being'' goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the bhavanga-citta. One may wonder whether bhavanga-cittas often arise. There must be countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming there are akusala cittas and kusala cittas, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments. Also when we are awake there are countless bhavanga-cittas arising; they arise in between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there are different processes of citta and in between these processes there are bhavanga-cittas. The bhavanga-citta succeeds the first citta in life, the paìisandhi- citta, rebirth-consciousness. When the rebirth-consciousness falls away it conditions the arising of the next citta, the second citta in that life and this is the first bhavanga-citta in life. The bhavanga-citta is vipåkacitta; it is the result of the same kamma which produced the paìisandhi-citta. There is only one paìisandhi- citta in a life, but there are countless bhavanga-cittas. Not only the first bhavanga-citta, but all bhavanga-cittas arising during a lifespan are the result of the kamma which produced the paìisandhi- citta. ***** Nina. #64015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" nilovg Dear Sebastien, citta rooted in dosa, aversion, dislikes. Citta rooted in lobha is attached, likes. This is another way of viewing it. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 13:46 heeft s.billard@... het volgende geschreven: > cittas which dislike the object" #64016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:57 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 67 nilovg Dear friends, I listened to an old tape made in Sri Lanka and heard Khun Sujin say: 'Even one moment of awareness is very precious, like a penny. When pennies are saved, they can become a capital. People are always very impatient, they just want to attain now in this life. But what about the reality now? One may sit without any understanding.' It is true that right understanding begins at this moment, how otherwise could it develop? When we watch T.V. , it is daily life, it is the same as meeting people in daily life. We may think 'This is Susie, this is Tadao', and then we should realize that such a moment is not seeing. One can prove this for oneself, consider such a moment and come to know the different characteristics of realities. If different characteristics are not clear yet, they can become clearer. All this is 'study', study of realities, different from the study of books. Another example: one cannot hear words. The moment of 'hearing' words, understanding their meaning, is different from the experience of just sound. Also this can be 'studied', again and again. Khun Sujin often said: 'Begin again, begin again, until it is clear, just develop it.' How many opportunities of study do we let go by? Reading is different from merely experiencing visible object. When we read we are quite absorbed in the story, there is a great deal of thinking. But there must also be moments of seeing, experiencing visible object. This is daily life. So you see that we have a long way to go in order to have clear knowledge of realities. with metta, Nina #64017 From: s.billard@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 In fact, I used "eventuellement" in the sense of "possibly" as this cittas can be accompagniated with liking, dislinking, or neutral feeling. "Eventually" is not equivalent to the french "eventuellement", we call it a "faux ami" ("false friend"). "Eventuellement" can be translated in english by "possibly" Sébastien > La ou vous avez mis "d'autre cittas apparaissent qui peuvent > eventuellement etre accompagnes de..." je pense qu'il est mieux si > vous mettez "qui sont accompagnes de..." Le citta a ce moment la est > deja accompagne par une connaisance de sensations desagreable ou > agreable. Le mot "eventuellement" n'est pas exactement approprie, a > mon avis. > > Pardonnez-moi mes fautes de grammaire. > > Scott. #64018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Continuation of Dhamma talk nilovg Dear Scott, thank you for the continuation of Dhamma. I enjoyed reading your reflections on gratefulness for the Dhamma. There are often misunderstandings about citta, vi~n~naa.na, and mano. They are exactly the same, no difference. Only in different contexts a particular term is used. I posted this before: The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61: However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 13:25 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I'm also recalling a moment during the walk when the Venerable was > differentiating citta, vi~n~nana, and mano. #64019 From: s.billard@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 yes our languages are very imprecise when it comes to describe such matters. India by studying mind has developped specific terms. As in western we had different views, we have not created the same terms. This is why sometimes it is better to use pali word, as the local equivalent is not exact. Sebastien >I think we use both 'sensations' and 'feelings' in > ordinary language to refer to many different things including both what is > experienced through the body-sense (rupas) and vedana and also other > cetasikas such as anger, delight and so on, plus a whole range of thinking > about various concepts, such as 'I had the sensation/feeling of being > lost'.... #64020 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" upasaka_howard Hi, Sebastien - In a message dated 10/6/06 11:11:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, s.billard@... writes: > In fact, I used "eventuellement" in the sense of "possibly" as this cittas > can > be accompagniated with liking, dislinking, or neutral feeling. > > "Eventually" is not equivalent to the french "eventuellement", we call it a > "faux ami" ("false friend"). "Eventuellement" can be translated in english > by > "possibly" > > Sébastien > ====================== I guess that 'eventuellement' might translate into English as "according to conditions". The sense of the French adverb is maintained in the English noun 'eventuality', which means "possibility" or "circumstance" or "condition" or "case". There is, for example, the common English expression "in that eventuality", which could also be rendered by "in that event" or "should that happen". But that sense is lost in the English adverb 'eventually', which means "after some period of time". Language comparisons are interesting, aren't they! :-) Avec metta, mon ami, Howard #64021 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/6/06 11:33:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, s.billard@... writes: > yes our languages are very imprecise when it comes to describe such > matters. > India by studying mind has developped specific terms. As in western we had > different views, we have not created the same terms. This is why sometimes > it > is better to use pali word, as the local equivalent is not exact. > > Sebastien > ===================== I have never understood the claim that the use of Pali terms is clarifying. When one uses a living language as a native speaker of it or at least as one who has learned to "think in it" to some extent, then one understands the sense of terms in it. But when one merely learns a *dead* language by formal study of its grammar, the only ways to learn its lexicon is ultimately by translation into a language that one can think in or by having seen language terms used in a multitude of contexts in the dead language in which one *understands* the context. But that understanding of the context again ultimately reduces to translating into one's "own" language. The mere *sounds* of "dukkha" and "metta" and "vedana" give no understanding of the meaning. For an English speaker to understand 'kusala', s/he need to see the word used in a variety of English contexts or see a list of English words each of which captures an aspect of the meaning, such as 'wholesome', 'useful', 'helpful', 'worthy', 'beneficial', and so on, or see a list of examples in English of phenomena and states that *are* kusala. There is no magic in the Pali. No language is better than any other one. Linguists make that point repeatedly. And, in fact, the Buddha specifically urged the teaching of the Dhamma in the vernacular. That is, he urged the teaching of it to people in their own language and dialect. Of course, when a Pali word has come to be well understood by Buddhists, they will incorporate it into their own language as a useful borrowing. With metta, Howard #64022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" nilovg Hi Howard, Sebastien and all, I appreciate your post. Any language will do, but when we learn Abhidhamma it helps us to use Pali next to English, I find. By the way, the quote underneath the letter you addressed was not mine! But I kept track of all the posts about this subject. I trust Sebastien and physically, I am not able to discuss much about my book. My physical strength is rather limited. Tiika of Visuddhimagga takes many hours a week and a lot of strength and energy, plus answering posts addressed to me. And I really like to do all this. Unfortunately my day is too short, I do whatever I can. There are many interesting posts I would like to react to, I am sorry I cannot do more. Nina Op 6-okt-2006, om 18:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > No language is better than any other > one. #64023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 540- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas nilovg Dear Han, A property is not an object for abstaining, it is the person you do not want to hurt by taking away his property. But the abstention only occurs at the actual moment of there being a temptation to kill or steal. It is all in a flash, so fast and there is no need to think much about it. When we reason about it, it all becomes complicated. I think of Phil's mosquitos. One may be tempted to kill them, but sati knows: this is kusala, this is akusala. It realizes the danger and ill effects of akusala, but not necessarily by thinking. It is sati and virati cetasika and the other sobhana cetasikas (also confidence in kusala) that cooperate. Nobody can induce their arising (remember it all hapens so fast), but there are conditions leading to the arising of kusala citta. One may have gained more understanding of nama and rupa, and also of kamma and vipaka. Reading the suttas help much: we read about the results of akusala kamma, and these bring results also in the same life. When one kills one is apt to have diseases, and it shortens one's life. When one slanders one loses one's friends. When drinking too much one will become mad and will die insane. By being aware of nama and rupa one begins to have more understanding of the characteristic of akusala, its ugliness, its danger. It is not beautiful. Whereas the characteristic of kusala is beautiful, pure, peaceful. Little by little we can learn the difference between them and this by beginning to be aware of them, even if this is still imperfect awareness. By developing understanding confidence in kusala grows. Until it becomes unshakable such as is the case at attaining enlightenment. But also now, we do have confidence in the Dhamma, don't we? Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 12:20 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When there is no person to kill there is no > opportunity for abstaining from killing. > When there is nothing to steal there is no opportunity > for abstaining from stealing. > (Like there is no opportunity for abstention when the > citta is jhanacitta.) > Therefore, can a person who could be killed be not an > object for abstaining from killing? > Can a property that could be stolen be not an object > for abstaining from stealing? #64024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati nilovg Hi Phil, By defining what we hear I mean: knowing the conventional sense, and this is not pa~n~aa. Sati with pa~n`naa is not always satipatthana, this is so when the object is nama and rupa. One can give with generosity accompanied by pa~n~naa that understands kamma and vipaaka, and the benefit of kusala, but not necessarily kusala as a type of nama. In that case there is no satipatthana. When we perform kusala through body, speech or mind with the intention to have less defilements, it is a perfection, but there is no need to think about all this. It can just be this intention. You do not want to gain anything for yourself, no honour or praise. Let us see what Lodewijk says, but he does not answer so soon. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 4:04 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I guess in this case there is yoniso manasikara assisting sati, > but not panna since there is not "defining what we hear." Does panna > always "define what we hear" (for example) to some degree, albeit it > not in words like a dictionary definition? > > When there is sati without panna, it is sati, but when there is > sati with panna it is satipatthana? > > I have a question for Lodewijk. > .... It seems to me that > appreciating any moment of kusala is enough, and by thinking of > kusala as a perfection it brings on to much lobha for me, or too > much conceit, or something. Why is it important to think of > perfections? Why not appreciate any moment of kusala and leave the > perfections to arise or not according to the kusala that is > developed moment by moment? #64025 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 540- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > A property is not an object for abstaining, it is > the person you do > not want to hurt by taking away his property. But > the abstention only > occurs at the actual moment of there being a > temptation to kill or > steal. It is all in a flash, so fast and there is no > need to think > much about it. When we reason about it, it all > becomes complicated. #64026 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:09 pm Subject: Books on Dhamma matheesha333 Hello everyone, Someone recently asked me what dhamma books I could recommend. So what are your all time favourite books? What books would be good to introduce someone into buddhism? with metta Matheesha #64027 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 86 matheesha333 Hi Nina,and others, Two questions: If something cannot be experienced (like bhavanga citta) can we say it exists, even conditionally? Are Bhavanga cittas mentioned in the suttas? thanks, Matheesha ps-sorry if these things were discussed recently.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chapter 12 > > > The Function of Bhavanga (Life-Continuum) > > There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does > not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Is > there at those moments still citta? Even when there are no sense- > impressions and no thinking there must be citta; otherwise there > would be no life. The type of citta which arises and falls away at > those moments is called bhavanga-citta. Bhavanga literally means > ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually translated into English as > ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta keeps the continuity in a > lifespan, so that what we call a ``being'' goes on to live from > moment to moment. That is the function of the bhavanga-citta. > One may wonder whether bhavanga-cittas often arise. There must be > countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when there are no > sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. > When we are asleep and dreaming there are akusala cittas and kusala > cittas, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there still has to > be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments. Also when we are > awake there are countless bhavanga-cittas arising; they arise in > between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for > example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there > are different processes of citta and in between these processes there > are bhavanga-cittas. > The bhavanga-citta succeeds the first citta in life, the paìisandhi- > citta, rebirth-consciousness. When the rebirth-consciousness falls > away it conditions the arising of the next citta, the second citta in > that life and this is the first bhavanga-citta in life. > The bhavanga-citta is vipåkacitta; it is the result of the same kamma > which produced the paìisandhi-citta. There is only one paìisandhi- > citta in a life, but there are countless bhavanga-cittas. Not only > the first bhavanga-citta, but all bhavanga-cittas arising during a > lifespan are the result of the kamma which produced the paìisandhi- > citta. > > ***** > Nina. > > > #64028 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 3:48 pm Subject: Re: what is sati philofillet Hi Nina (and Lodewijk) > Let us see what Lodewijk says, but he does not answer so soon. No hurry. Actually, the first post I ever sent to DSG was about the perfections, and the first thing I read by you was the book on the perfections, so what I am hoping for I guess to have my interest in the perfections rekindled. I'm sure it will be someday. So if Lodewijk could express his appreciation of them it would help me, that's all. Phil #64029 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" philofillet Hi Howard > I have never understood the claim that the use of Pali terms is > clarifying. I think it saves time. If one person is talking about "attention" for example, we know it is the manasikara of the texts, rather than the person's notion of what attention means, which might be very interesting to that person but can be misleading for him/herself and everyone else. If a term exists in Pali it means it exists in the ancient texts, which is crucial. Cuts down a little bit on all the speculating that goes on. Maybe not clarity, but cutting out the speculation just a little. Of course there is still speculation based on Pali terms, but surely a little less. Speculation is fun but it takes us off the path, I think. We need to quiet (humble?) our speculating minds in the presence of the ancient texts. Phil #64030 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" philofillet Hi again, Howard and all Still thinking about this as I ironed a shirt. A good example are the bhavanga cittas. Very tough to translate. Mind-continuum, or whatever. But since we can't experience them ourselves, how can we try to find a good translation? Based on what? So perhaps we end up rejecting them, denying their existence, because we can't experience themselves, can't explain them ourselves. Best just to stick with the texts, with the Pali term and humble our minds in the presence of teachings which transcend (right word?) our understanding. But of course, as you say, with something like vedana, it is much better to fully explore in English what the meaning is. Phil wrote: > > > Hi Howard > > > I have never understood the claim that the use of Pali terms > is > > clarifying. > > I think it saves time. If one person is talking about "attention" for > example, we know it is the manasikara of the texts, rather than the > person's notion of what attention means, which might be very > interesting to that person but can be misleading for him/herself and > everyone else. If a term exists in Pali it means it exists in the > ancient texts, which is crucial. Cuts down a little bit on all the > speculating that goes on. Maybe not clarity, but cutting out the > speculation just a little. Of course there is still speculation based > on Pali terms, but surely a little less. Speculation is fun but it > takes us off the path, I think. We need to quiet (humble?) our > speculating minds in the presence of the ancient texts. > > Phil > #64031 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/6/06 7:33:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi again, Howard and all > > > Still thinking about this as I ironed a shirt. > > A good example are the bhavanga cittas. Very tough to translate. > Mind-continuum, or whatever. But since we can't experience them > ourselves, how can we try to find a good translation? Based on what? > So perhaps we end up rejecting them, denying their existence, > because we can't experience themselves, can't explain them > ourselves. Best just to stick with the texts, with the Pali term and > humble our minds in the presence of teachings which transcend (right > word?) our understanding. > > But of course, as you say, with something like vedana, it is much > better to fully explore in English what the meaning is. > > Phil > > ======================== You read and understand the texts in Pali, Phil? And, as I said, the Buddha DID tell his monks to teach in the vernacular. With metta, Howard #64032 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:16 pm Subject: own dialect Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > You read and understand the texts in Pali, Phil? And, as I said, the > Buddha DID tell his monks to teach in the vernacular. > > ----- Dear Howard and Phil http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36 From Alan Mcclure Translation from: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20048.htm By T.W. Rhys Davids and Hermann Oldenberg QUOTE QUOTE 1. Now at that time there were two brothers, Bhikkhus, by name Yamelu and Tekula, Brâhmans by birth, excelling in speech, excelling in pronunciation. These went up to the place where the Blessed One was, and when they had come there, they saluted the Blessed One, and took their seats on one side. And so sitting those Bhikkhus spake to the Blessed One thus: 'At the present time, Lord, Bhikkhus, differing in name, differing in lineage, differing in birth, differing in family, have gone forth (from the world). These corrupt the word of the Buddhas by (repeating it in) their own dialect. Let us, Lord, put the word of the Buddhas into (Sanskrit) verse,' 'How can you, O foolish ones, speak thus, saying, "Let us, Lord, put the word of the Buddhas into verse?" This will not conduce, O foolish ones, either to the conversion of the unconverted, or to the increase of the converted; but rather to those who have not been converted being not converted, and to the turning back of those who have been converted.' And when the Blessed One had rebuked those Bhikkhus, and had delivered a religious discourse 2, he addressed the Bhikkhus, and said: 'You are not, O Bhikkhus, to put the word of the Buddhas into (Sanskrit) verse. Whosoever does so, shall be guilty of a dukkata. I allow you, O Bhikkhus, to learn the word of the Buddhas each in his own dialect.' ------- As you can see, they take the approach that the dialect to be used is that which belongs to each particular bhikkhu, and thus various dialects. However, U. Razinda from the Dept. of Ancient Indian & Asian Studies, Nalanda, India makes the following comments: ------------------- QUOTE 1) From: U. Razinda of the Dept. of Ancient Indian & Asian Studies, Nalanda, India "Rhys Davids and Oldenberg (Vinaya Texts III=Sacred Books of the East, XX, p.151. ) translate this passage by "I allow you, oh brethren, to learn the words of the Buddha each in his own dialect". This interpretation, however, is not accorded with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom it has to be translated by "I ordain the words of the Buddha to be learnt in his own language (i.e., in Magadhi, the language used by Buddha himself)". In fact, the explanation given by Buddhaghosa is more acceptable, because neither the two monks nor Buddha himself have thought of preaching in different dialects in different cases." To see specifically what Oldenberg and Rhys-Davids were thinking, here is their footnote to the passage: -------- QUOTE QUOTE 2) From: T.W. RHYS DAVIDS AND HERMANN OLDENBERG "1- We think that in these words (khandaso âropema) there does lie a reference to the earlier Sanskrit. And this especially for four reasons: firstly, this is required by the antithesis to 'their own dialect;' secondly, the use of the word khandasi in Pânini, where it always means precisely 'in the Veda-dialect,' requires it; thirdly, it is difficult to understand otherwise the mention of 'Brâhmans by birth;' and fourthly, this is in accordance with the traditional interpretation of the passage handed down among the Bhikkhus. Buddhaghosa says, khandaso âropemâ ti Vedam viya sakkata-bhâsâya vâkanâ-maggam âropema. Sakkata is of course Samskrita." ------- Robert #64033 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 7:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Continuation of Dhamma talk scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I appreciate your kind support. N: "...I enjoyed reading your reflections on gratefulness for the Dhamma." I can still feel this arising from time to time;usually as I find a moment to study Dhamma, or think of finding a moment... N: "There are often misunderstandings about citta, vi~n~naa.na, and mano. They are exactly the same, no difference...in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used." Yes, this was something I was struggling to recall. I just had a sense that something wasn't right with what was being said. With loving kindness, Scott. #64034 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/6/06 7:33:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi again, Howard and all > > > Still thinking about this as I ironed a shirt. > > A good example are the bhavanga cittas. Very tough to translate. > Mind-continuum, or whatever. But since we can't experience them > ourselves, how can we try to find a good translation? Based on what? > So perhaps we end up rejecting them, denying their existence, > because we can't experience themselves, can't explain them > ourselves. Best just to stick with the texts, with the Pali term and > humble our minds in the presence of teachings which transcend (right > word?) our understanding. > > But of course, as you say, with something like vedana, it is much > better to fully explore in English what the meaning is. > > ========================= The issue isn't the texts, but Pali versus the vernacular. As to taking something on faith without any experience - I will not do that. I leave it as a possibility, but no more than that. With metta, Howard #64035 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 4:57 pm Subject: Re: own dialect Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in dail... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - Thank you for these specifics! :-) With metta, Howard #64036 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > The issue isn't the texts, but Pali versus the vernacular. Hi Howard, Phil & RobK Vernacular? The plot thickens. It's hardly controversial to say that we (who know so very little Pali) need to study the Dhamma in our own language, English. If we find that an idea doesn't quite fit the available English words, we may well choose to use the Pali term directly and be done with it. No controversy there. A lot of the quotes we've been looking at, however, refer not to "language" but "dialect". The first point to keep in mind, therefore, is that the Buddha was operating in a language environment where dialect was an issue. Schumann calls Pali "an elevated form of Magadhi, avoiding dialect forms and with its vocabulary enriched through expressions borrowed from related Indian languages ... a supra-regional lingua franca, spoken only by the educated, but understood also by the common people" [The Historical Buddha]. He also says the Buddha used Pali. This may all be scholastically out- of-date, but not to worry ... People think of "language" as "a means of communication" but sociolinguists tell us that it has a very important role in establishing social relationships and "social values". Hence the good advice not to use "loaded terms"! And the notorious case of the Norwegian weather man who was sacked because of the way he pronounced the word "snow" (part of a war between competing dialects - no communication issue at all as everyone knew exactly what he was saying). I suspect that the Buddha's remarks are not to be taken as telling me that I must study Dhamma in the "Educated Australian English" dialect and that my Aboriginal relative (by marriage) must study Dhamma in "Aboriginal English". If Schumann's assessment of the language situation at the Buddha's time is correct, then there is something to be said for Buddhaghosa's recorded interpretation: use a language you all understand (Pali) rather than a more elite form (Sanskrit or ?East Magadhi lower caste creole). Perhaps the Buddha could see that presenting the teachings in Sanskrit verses would lock them away from a large part of the general population and ultimately ossify them, shortening the dispensation? Early Indian language experts out there in cyberspace are invited to correct anything I've said in this post. I'll let you choose the dialect. ;-) Best wishes Andrew #64037 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 86 nilovg Dear Matheesha, Q. 1: We cannot experience the bhavangacitta when insight is not developed. It is real, but I cannot experience it now. There are many things taught in the Tipitaka I cannot experience yet. The Buddha taught them and that means that it is possible to experience them. What would otherwise be the use of studying Dhamma? There are other things taught by the Buddha I can verify in my life. Although I have no clear, direct understanding of the different cittas, I find it most helpful to learn about them. To know that I have many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Thanks to the Buddha I will not continue to mislead myself my whole life. It is beneficial to know the truth about oneself. Q. 2: In one text of the Anguttara Nikaya, I, 10 (I, Ch VI, The fingersnap): > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi > upakkili.t.tha.m. N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by oncoming defilements. The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using the word pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be clear in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-citta." The material on Bhavanga is in the commentary. Nina. Op 6-okt-2006, om 23:19 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > If something cannot be experienced (like bhavanga citta) can we say > it exists, even conditionally? > > Are Bhavanga cittas mentioned in the suttas? #64038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 1:57 am Subject: Dhamma in New York, no 1. nilovg Dhamma in New York Last week, we had the wonderful opportunity to meet Howard in person in New York. He came over all the way from Queens to meet us in a Westside restaurant near Central Park. We were impressed by Howard’s kindness, his knowledge and keen interest in the Dhamma. We were truly delighted to have spent time with him. Part I. The Brahmaviharas. N: For the development of metta we should know what metta is and what its near enemy, selfish affection. We are able to know this thanks to the Buddha. H: If metta is only a concept, it is purely intellectual, there is no heart in that. This will not bring about the brahmaviharas. N: You have to know about it, otherwise you will mix kusala and akusala. H: Of course, we have to know what the goal is, what the practice is. N: A foundation knowledge is necessary. H: Absolutely. That is the beginning. But you cannot stay with that beginning forever and hope that some day, by good luck the brahmaviharas will arise. ------------- Nina. Here is an addition I would like to make now: It may seem purely intellectual to know about the near enemy of metta, as if there is no heart in it. This is a good point Howard made. However, when we learn that both kusala citta and citta with attachment can be accompanied by happy feeling, it helps us not to delude ourselves, taking for metta what is attachment. We know that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas in our life. Whenever there is happy feeling, we can be sure that this usually accompanies citta with attachment. We learn that there should be equanimity (tatramajjhattataa, evenmindedness) with all brahmaviharas. This means that there should be impartiality, we should not be selective as to the persons metta can be directed to. We also need truthfulness, not taking akusala for kusala. When we consider all this, there can be more understanding and this guides the citta at the moment there is an opportunity for metta. In other words, when there are conditions for sati and pa~n~naa, these cetasikas assist the citta with true metta. There is no need to think about it, it can arise spontaneously. ***** Nina. #64039 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:04 am Subject: Re: To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" philofillet Hi Howard > The issue isn't the texts, but Pali versus the vernacular. Right, I was mixing up the issues in my morning rush to get ready for work. In the other thread you asked "you read the texts in Pali Phil?" No, and I don't have any interest in learning Pali grammar to that extent. Don't see that it's necessary. But using the Pali term to identify paramattha dhammas in order to get everyone on the same page asap - yes, I see value in that. As to > taking something on faith without any experience - I will not do that. I leave it > as a possibility, but no more than that. Well, you will go that way, of course. I think the risk that it turns into Howardism rather that Dhamma, but I'm sure you've considered that possibility and know what you are doing. For me, I find it fascinating that the Dhamma is a field in which accepting what we do not and cannot (in all likelihood) know for ourselves in this lifetime is one of the essential conditions for developing understanding of what we can know. How fascinating that the Dhamma is a field of knowleddge in which a thirst for understanding is counterproductive. (We probably disagree there) So cool! I also like very much what Scott wrote in one of his posts: "I found myself consolidating again something I try to do as I learn, and that is, stay away from my own ideas." I am not a sadhu sadhu sadhu kinda guy but I almost blurted it out there! :) No more to say on the Pali topic from me, not until the next time I do have something to say on it which could be in 3 minutes or so. Phil #64040 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:16 am Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi Matheesha I am no longer a Thich Nhat Hahn fan but I found his "The Heart of the Buddha's somethingorother" very helpful. (Heart of the Buddha's Wisdom?"). It is mahayana so contains some incorrect (for me, now) concepts such as the Buddha Mind - we all have the potential to be Buddha etc - and things like that but teaches the noble truths very nicely, I think. I think Nina's book on the perfections is also great for someone who wants to ease into Abhidhamma. (Perhaps a little easier for the beginner than Abhidhamma in Daily Life, and contains a summary of some basic Abhidhamma teachings in the introduction, if I recall correctly.) But I guess it is only available on line now. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > Someone recently asked me what dhamma books I could recommend. > > So what are your all time favourite books? What books would be good to > introduce someone into buddhism? > > with metta > > Matheesha > #64041 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta the householder (was, Kasina meditation is evil?) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > ... However, > overall, I wouldn't say that Citta was teaching a great number of > monks (if he taught any at all). The monks during the Buddha's time > had the Buddha and his chief disciples, as well as many arahants, to > learn the dhamma from. It would have been a sad state of affairs if > monks had to go to householders for dhamma instruction. > I don't see why this should be regarded as a 'sad state of affairs'. There were lay-followers (male and female) who were enlightened and monks who were not (attainment along the path is not directly related to one's position, lifestyle or other circumstances). Any one with understanding of the teachings can be a 'good friend' or 'wise person' to associate with when the occasion is appropriate. Perhaps we'll have to agree to differ on this one ;-)) Jon #64042 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art sarahprocter... Hi Leo, --- Leo wrote: > Hi > > It is also interesting, that Dhammapada is saying about Arahant is > staying in village or forest. It does not say that arahant is staying > in city. It looks to me it is too ascetical. I mean do not have trees > and walk around everywhere inside of city walls. .... S: I don't see any significance in it. Even today, around the main Buddhist holy places in India (as found in the scriptures), there are just forests and villages. Take Jetavana at Savatthi where the Buddha and arahants spent considerable amounts of time - even today, just small hamlets around, no city for hundreds of kms and still no proper roads. If we think there cannot be any development of satipatthana or any vipassana unless we're sitting under a tree or outside a city, we're in trouble, I think. Not the Middle Way. How about you? Did you say you were living in Hawaii now? Does it make any difference whether you are in the city, in the hills or on the beach there? Metta, Sarah ======== #64043 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha & all, --- matheesha wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Someone recently asked me what dhamma books I could recommend. > > So what are your all time favourite books? What books would be good to > introduce someone into buddhism? ..... S: One of the first books I had and found very useful was Narada's 'The Buddha and his Teachings'. If I don't think someone will be able to appreciate the Abhidhamma or Nina's books, I might recommend this or 'What the Buddha Taught' by Walpola Rahula (though there are parts I don't agree with). I think Nina's book 'The Buddha's Path' is really helpful for beginners or anyone. Also 'Buddhism in Daily Life'. And then there are excellent books like 'The Life of the Buddha' by Nanamoli and some of Nyantiloka's small books of selected quotes like 'The Word of the Buddha'. Also, of course, 'The Dhammapada and commentary stories', 'Qus of K. Milinda', B. Bodhi's anthologies are all very readable. It very much depends on interest - some of us just plunged into 'Abhidhamma in D.Life' and the 'Visuddhimagga' from the outset - others prefer to read the Jatakas. Phil has really appreciated SN35 Salyatanasamyutta which I remember finding very significant when I first spent time on it too. Mostly, I just encourage anyone new to also join in discussions here because I think it's important to raise questions and discuss what one reads. How about you? What do you recommend beginners? I think it makes a big difference what kind of cultural background someone is coming from as well - if one has been brought up in Sri Lanka as a Buddhist or comes from a Western philosophical/psychological background etc. Perhaps Howard, Ken H and all the others will add their comments. Btw, you were discussing the Susima Sutta with Nina. There is a whole section on it in 'Useful Posts' under 'Susima Sutta'. I think you might find some of the old saved posts and threads beneath them interesting to follow. Metta, Sarah ======= #64044 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Renewed Understanding of MN 148 Chachakka Sutta jonoabb Hi Swee Boon I found this and your earlier post very interesting. Thanks for going to the trouble of analysing the suttas. Just a comment on one or two points from your message. nidive wrote: > Hi Jon again, > > ... > I think I see how the interpretation of the six internal sense media > as old kamma ties in with what you said earlier. > It seems that the term 'old kamma' is not to be taken literally here. In his translation of SN, Bhikkhu Bodhi quotes the commentary as explaining that the eye, etc. is not actually old kamma but is produced by old kamma and it thus spoken of in terms of its conditions (see CBD n.146 at p.1420 and n. 111 at p. 757). "It should be seen *as generated (abhisankhata)*, in that it is made by conditions; *as fashioned by volition (abhisancetayita)*, in that it is based on volition, rooted in volition ...". > Therefore, you are right in saying that 'name' in D.O. only refers to > a partial set of cetasikas and 'form' in D.O. only refers to the form > internal to one's body. > But not all internal rupas: only those that are kamma-produced (such as the 5 sense-bases -- see Appendix III at the back of Nina's translation of 'Survey' for a complete list). > I am of the opinion that in MN 148, the consciousness that arises > dependent on the six-internal-media and the six-external-media is > actually vipaka citta. > Are you referring to the third set of sixes? That reads (BB translation): "... dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises." I personally don't think this should be limited to vipaka citta. > This is significant in that the dependency of { name-&-form -> > consciousness } is not repeated in (1) D.O.. Instead, it is skipped > over and hidden under { six-internal-sense-media -> contact }. > > DN 15 abbreviates it even further as just { name-&-form -> contact }. > > Thanks for your valuable input! > And many thanks to you, Swee Boon. I can see you have a wide-ranging knowledge of the suttas. Jon #64045 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Books on Dhamma nilovg Hi Matheesha, if you like to read it: Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 11:16 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I think Nina's book on the > perfections is also great for someone who wants to ease into > Abhidhamma. (Perhaps a little easier for the beginner than > Abhidhamma in Daily Life, and contains a summary of some basic > Abhidhamma teachings in the introduction, if I recall correctly.) > But I guess it is only available on line now. #64046 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 Hi all, No I don't think a language is better than another, it is just that people develop word when they need it. It would be hard to discuss about 21st century technology matters with a middle-age language as we have developped specific jargons. In the same manner it is sometimes hard to discuss buddhist matters in our respective languages, as indian people has developped specific jargons because they needed it. Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr/referencement :: http://s.billard.free.fr/dotclear #64047 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 64 sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Nina), --- Phil wrote: > In this sutta, and in any reference to the four right efforts, and in > the admonition to "avoid evil, do good and ????" the evil is always > mentioned before the good. <..> > Do the tipitaka or commentaries give any significance to the evil > being mentionned before the good? .... S: One quick comment: I think it helps to consider these 4 right efforts as actually 4 functions of right effort. "...at the moment of the supramundane path this is one single kind of energy that gets four names by accomplishing four functions". (Dispeller, Classification of the Right Efforts, 1431). At lokuttara path moments, the 4 functions are fully developed, but even at moments of satipatthana, the 4 functions are beginning to be developed. By the way, the 'good states' in your quote below, according to Dispeller (Sammohavinodani) above, refer to 'both tranquillity and insight and also the path' in the case of 'unarisen profitable/good states' (anuppannaa kusalaa dhammaa),and to tranquillity and insight only in the case of 'arisen profitable states' (uppannaa kusalaa dhammaa). Again, at 1443 in the Dispeller, it repeats that 'at the moment of the supramundane path it is one single energy that accomplishes both the function of causing the non-arising of those which are unarisen and might arise thus, and also the function of abandoning those which are arisen' with reference to the unwholesome states. I think we tend to think about situations of mental states rather than appreciating the functions of right effort at this very moment if it arises (which of course it has to do, if right understanding arises). Metta, Sarah ======== > > "When, friend, a monk thinks thus: Bad and evil states that have not > > arisen, were they to arise, would conduce to my hurt-- and no ardour > > is aroused, this is to be without ardour. So also when he thinks: > Bad > > and evil states that have arisen if they are not eliminated, would > > conduce to my hurt,- or: - > > > > Good states that have arisen, were they not to arise,- or: - Good > > states that have arisen, were they to cease, these things would > > conduce to my hurt- and no ardour is aroused, this is to be without > > ardour. #64048 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > As for the first 6 ayatanas not being the 6 sense-organs, I would > appreciate directing me to sources explaining them as cakkhu- > vinnana, etc., and not only as cakkhu, etc. > I was relying on the commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, as quoted in my earlier message, which explains manayatana (the 6th internal ayatana) as being "the aggregate of consciousness in its totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta". << << << The twelve sense bases offer another perspective on the whole. From this perspective the totality of concrete entities is viewed by way of the doors and objects of consciousness. Bases (1)-(5) are identical with the five kinds of sensitive material phenomena and bases (7)-(11) with the five kinds of objective material phenomena. The mind base at (6), however, has a wider range than the mind door. It is identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental-object base does not completely coincide with mental object (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases, the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since the notion of base (ayatana) extends only to ultimate realities, i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhava), and does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors, the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana. >> >> >> (From "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", Ch VII 'Compendium of Categories, section on 'Compendium of the Whole', #36 'The Twelve Sense Bases' and its Guide) Jon #64049 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I'm glad to see your messages and good questions which I think Nina has already responded to. Just to continue with this thread of ours a little - --- han tun wrote: > Sarah: > Don't you think that the truth of (paramattha) dhammas > and the understanding of these at this moment as being > anatta is the Middle Way rather than any extreme? > For example, now when we reflect on dhamma or abstain > from wrong speech or any harm to others, there is sila > already. Doesn't it refer to these wholesome moments, > conditioned by wise reflection and wise attention? > > ------------------------------ > > Han; > No, I do not think that the truth of (paramattha) > dhammas and the understanding of these at this moment > as being anatta is extreme. > > What I think extreme was when you said, “it is to > momentary arising cittas and cetasikas; there is > nothing else but these cetasikas performing their > functions, and at such moments, it is not self who > abstains.” > > “it is not self who abstains” is correct from > paramattha point of view, but to take that attitude > seriously all the time is extreme. .... S: Even when we laugh and have fun, are there not only cittas and cetasikas performing their functions? When there is abstaining from wrong speech or greedy behaviour, for example, is there anything other than cittas and cetasikas abstaining? I don't see how anatta or reflection and understanding of dhammas as such can ever be extreme:-) ... > Please read your next sentence. > You wrote: “for example, now when we reflect-----”. > There was already the “we.” (:>) .... S: Yes, we have to use 'I' and 'we'. The Buddha had to as well:-). If we thought that an understanding of paramattha dhammas meant avoiding such terms, that would really be an 'extreme' and not the path at all. I don't see any conflict between the understanding of dhammas and the use of conventional language. Do you? Of course, sometimes we have to question each other to find out what is intended by such language:-)). ... > =============== > > Sarah: > I know it can be frustrating to have every word > analysed, so I also apologise if I've given you any > such frustration: -). > > ------------------------------ > > Han: > No, Sarah, I am not frustrated at all. Please do not > apologize. You know me by now. I am happy-go-lucky > fellow. I am writing these just for the sake of dhamma > discussions. .... S: Thank you for your kind response. I do think these dhamma discussions are helpful. I really like some of your subsequent penetrating questions, such as the ones about the object of the virati cetasikas;-). Please pursue them and keep adding your helpful additional comments to the 'Cetasikas corner'. You may also have some comments to add to Nina, Lodewijk and Howard's discussion in New York (Nina's new series) as I know you follow Howard's comments with keen interest too. They'd all be pleased, I know. Thanks again, Han. Metta, Sarah ======= #64050 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, (Daniel & All*) --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > M: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.006.than.html > > .... > > S: I think you've quoted from the Samadhi Sutta before. I wondered > this > > time whether there was a point you were emphasising? > > M: Oh that was in response to your conversation with Daniel: .... S: Thanks for clarifying this. I think I hadn't taken note of the same subject heading or appreciated that it was directed to us. My mistake. .... > > >D: What can we say > > about > > "that-which-is-not-cognized-by-any-of-the-six-types-of- > consciousnesses"? > .... > S: There may be some types of consciousness which themselves are > never > cognized perhaps. But in general, I would say that that which is not > cognized as you write above does not exist. > > M: The samadhi sutta I posted this time is very different to the > ones I posted before. Lets talk more later.. .... S: I've long forgotten the context of Daniel's question and I may have misunderstood it too. Of course nibbana (as described in the sutta passage you quote) is experienced/cognized by consciousness in the mind-door process, but only by lokuttara (supramundane consciousness), not by kamavacara (sense-realm consciousness). Again, thank you for the passage and apologies for not appreciating it was addressed to us. Metta, Sarah *p.s May I also take this opportunity to ask everyone to make it clear whom they are addressing, even if it's 'All'. ========= #64051 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Heartfelt Gratitude from Seelagawesi Thero sarahprocter... Dear Ven Seelagawesi, > --- Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero > wrote: > > I would like to say that we are looking forward to our pilgrimage to > > India, > > where the Buddha was. With the completion of a successful Rain > Retreat, > > I > > look forward to practicing and sharing some of my realization. .... S: I'd like to wish you a happy and profitable pilgrimage to the Holy Places. ... > > Kusinara is the most suitable place for meditation, for the > > "recollection of > > the death". One should practice this meditation and try to understand > > the > > nature of death before his or her own demise. > > > > > > > > The Buddha is the perfect example to show us that there is nothing to > > grasp > > in this world. <...>> > > > Visiting Kusinara and spending some time with meditative mind is very > > rare > > opportunity that we cherish. .... S: Kusinara is indeed a very special place to visit and very conducive to wise reflection on death. The sites have also been beautifully restored in recent years and are most inspiring. Please share any of your reflections from your pilgrimage with us. With best wishes and respect, Metta, Sarah ========== #64052 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:09 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 542- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd Summarizing the cittas which can be accompanied by the abstinences, they are: eight mahå-kusala cittas which are of the sense-sphere (kåmåvacara kusala cittas) eight (or forty) lokuttara cittas which are accompanied by all three abstinences In the case of the mahå-kusala cittas, only one kind of abstinence arises at a time, as the occasion presents itself; not each mahå-kusala citta is accompanied by one of the abstinences. The abstinences are not among the nineteen sobhana cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta; they do not accompany vipåka-cittas since they are the actual abstinence from wrong conduct. Neither do the three abstinences accompany the mahå-kiriyacittas of the arahat since there are for those who have eradicated all defilements no more opportunities for abstention. The three abstinences do not accompany rúpåvacara cittas (finematerial jhånacittas) and arúpåvacara cittas (immaterial jhånacittas) since there is no opportunity for abstention when the citta is jhånacitta, the citta which does not experience sense-impressions. The three abstinences which together accompany the lokuttara cittas are the three factors which are the right speech, right action and right livelihood of the eightfold Path. They accompany the magga-cittas and they also accompany the phala-cittas (fruitionconsciousness). The phala-cittas are the results of the magga-cittas, but they are different from other types of vipåkacittas. The phalacittas are lokuttara vipåkacittas experiencing nibbåna, and they immediately succeed the magga-citta which produces them, in the same process. Thus we see that there are many kinds and degrees of the three abstinences. There is abstinence without right understanding and with right understanding. When lokuttara citta arises all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara citta and they are also lokuttara. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64053 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana a... jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >> To my understanding, there is no such thing as 'concentration on a >> kasina with kusala', as there is no kusala in concentration per se >> (concentration is a mental factor that takes the ethical quality of the >> consciousness it accompanies). >> > > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > To "concentrate with kusala" means to have kusala mindstates in which > concentration is a strong factor. It's not a matter of the concentration > itself being kusala or akusala, as I see it. The concentration is concentration. > ------------------------------------ > Yes, if used in this sense, for example, to refer to highly developed samatha where concentration becomes a 'strong factor', I would agree. But at lower levels of samatha concentration is not a strong factor. 'Samatha' means 'serenity', a reference to the mental factor of passadhi (calm, tranquillity) which is its defining feature. >> The development of samatha spoken of in the Vism requires, I believe, >> that the kammatthana (object of samatha consciousness) be contemplated >> in a kusala way, that is to say, with some level of understanding (panna). >> >> Jon >> >> > ====================== > Jon, this last makes no sense to me. The Buddha taught kasina > meditation as a useful means of attaining jhanas. The kasinas are pa~n~natti, not > paramattha dhammas. You always say that "wisdom cannot know" concepts. So, how > would there be contemplation of a kasina with pa~n~na if that is indeed so? > Exactly what are you asserting here, Jon? > To my understanding, both kinds of bhavana (mental development) spoken of in the texts require panna of the appropriate level. In the case of vipassana bhavana, the panna knows something regarding the true nature of a presently arisen dhamma. In the case of samatha bhavana, panna contemplates the object (a concept) in a kusala way, and knows whether the consciousness is kusala or aksuala. So only realities/dhammas/'the all' (i.e., not concepts) are the object of panna of satipatthana/vipassana. Jon #64054 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:40 am Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for posting this. I think there is one of the articles that are available on-line that has a helpful introduction to Abhidhamma at the beginning. Do you know which what I'm referring to? Is there one called "understanding reality" or something like that? It's maybe 16 pages when printed out. A lot of my binders are stored away now so I can't find it. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Matheesha, if you like to read it: > > Nina. #64055 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right intention/samma sankappa (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina > When we use the word thinking we usually mean thinking of concepts, > but we learn that vitakka arises in sense-door processes, in mind- > door processes and also in cittas which do not arise in a process. > Its function is to strike or hit the object of citta. > Also when we are thinking of concepts, vitakka hits the object of > thinking. Vitakka can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. In the > sutta the difference is emphasized between akusala thinking and > kusala thinking. I have foudn the sutta that you quote in the vitakka chapter in Cetasikas incredibly helpful. I think it is MN 18 or 19.the Buddha over 6 years (I think it says) developed the habit (if that is the right word) of sorting thoughts into two categories - those about ill-will, cruelty and sensual desire and those about their opposites. Something like that. And he came to understand that those unwholesome thoughts are to my harm, to the harm of the other, to the harm of us both, that they are obstructive to wisdom. I have found that really helpful the last few days. Really, a bit similar to the sutta on Removal of Distracting Thoughts (around the same place in MN) but simpler and more to the point. It seems to be all about concepts though - the content of thought rather than the dhamma at the root of the thought. Thoughts *of* ill- will etc. So it easy for me to see why people would think "Right Thought" is all about the content of thought rather than the jati of the vitakka that is striking the mental object. At this point, I don't think my understanding can go any further on this point by pressing hard to understand (or maybe I am just to lazy to think hard) so I will let it drop. But that sutta is helping me a lot these days as I have been very distracted by the kind of unwholesome thoughts that always seem to crop up when the invigorating weather of autumn comes. Thanks again. Phil #64056 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) hantun1 Dear Sarah, First of all I would like to thank you very much for your patience with me. Please do not pay too much attention to what I write. It is like most of what I talked during our meeting at the Peninsula Hotel - only “idle talks.” > S: Even when we laugh and have fun, are there not only cittas and cetasikas performing their functions? When there is abstaining from wrong speech or greedy behaviour, for example, is there anything other than cittas and cetasikas abstaining? I don't see how anatta or reflection and understanding of dhammas as such can ever be extreme:-) Han: You are 100 per cent correct from paramattha dhamma point of view, but for me, I cannot think that it was not Han Tun who was laughing or talking nonsense (:>). ------------------------------ > > Han: No, Sarah, I am not frustrated at all. Please do not apologize. You know me by now. I am happy-go-lucky fellow. I am writing these just for the sake of dhamma discussions. > S: Thank you for your kind response. I do think these dhamma discussions are helpful. I really like some of your subsequent penetrating questions, such as the ones about the object of the virati cetasikas;-) . Please pursue them and keep adding your helpful additional comments to the 'Cetasikas corner'. Han: Thank you very much for your encouragement. I will follow the Cetasika corner and other threads, and try to give my opinion on some non-controversial issues. As regards controversial issues, I do not have much physical and mental strength left to pursue. As my days are already numbered, I need to have some peace of mind, even if that mind may be tainted with tanha, maana and ditthi. (Please do not say that how can I have peace of mind, if that mind is tainted with tanha, maana and ditthi (:>) ------------------------------ > S: You may also have some comments to add to Nina, Lodewijk and Howard's discussion in New York (Nina's new series) as I know you follow Howard's comments with keen interest too. They'd all be pleased, I know. Han: I will definitely follow. Please take care. Also my warm regards to Jon. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > > I'm glad to see your messages and good questions > which I think Nina has > already responded to. > > Just to continue with this thread of ours a little - > #64057 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 5:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 86 matheesha333 Hi Nina, > > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi > upakkilesehi > > upakkili.t.tha.m. > N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by > oncoming defilements. M: I was under the impression that the above quote was about citta 'in general'. I thought bhavanga citta was some mysterious dark river like 'thing' which was active while we were asleep -ie it could not be experienced on it's own. The stuff 'in between' arising and passing away. I read something about sounds impinging on it and then that experience coming into our consciousness... or is that a wrong concept? I feel gratitude, for you answering my questions. Thank you. with metta Matheesha > > The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using > the word > pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be > clear > in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga- citta." #64058 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > > > If Schumann's assessment of the language situation at the Buddha's > time is correct, then there is something to be said for Buddhaghosa's > recorded interpretation: use a language you all understand (Pali) > rather than a more elite form (Sanskrit or ?East Magadhi lower caste > creole). Perhaps the Buddha could see that presenting the teachings > in Sanskrit verses would lock them away from a large part of the > general population and ultimately ossify them, shortening the > dispensation? > > ________ Dear Andrew that seems a reasonable take on it. What do other members think? Robert #64059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 6:13 am Subject: Letters from Nina, no 68 nilovg Dear friends, Here following are two letters to Khun Charupan who recently passed away. She selected and translated all these letters into Thai and edited the whole book with English and Thai. As I understood this book was shared out again at the occasion of her cremation. ---------- Jakarta, July 15, '83. Dear Khun Charupan, When I was in Bangkok recently I was glad to meet you and my other friends again in Khun Sujin's house and also in the temple. I appreciate it that all of you help Khun Sujin to explain the Dhamma to others, be it in the way of printing books, transcribing Khun Sujin's radio talks or translating. The copies ofthe tapes made by Khun Sukol Kalyanamit when your group had Dhamma discussions in India are of great benefit to many people. I listen to them often. Khun Sujin told me that Khun Sukol sent one set of these tapes to a blind monk in Bangkok, but that the monk did not receive them. Instead of having aversion Khun Sukol rejoiced since he thought of the benefit which someone else who received these tapes would have. He then sent another set to the blind monk. The monk wanted to show his appreciation by arranging to send fresh milk to all those who would be present on Sunday in the temple (Wat Bovornives) listening to Khun Sujin's lecture. I happened to be present when the milk was given and thus I could also rejoice in the monk's kind and thoughtful gesture. My husband commented that this sounds like a story from the suttas in the Buddha's time. He appreciated it that Khun Sukol, instead of being annoyed about the loss of tapes, thought of someone else's benefit. When there is wise attention to the object which is experienced at that moment, there can be kusala citta instead of akusala citta. You asked my comment on a few Dhamma questions. These are questions we all have and I find it helpful to think about the answers since this gives me an opportunity to consider Dhamma. I shall repeat your questions and comment on them. Question : What is the characteristic of fear and how can it be overcome? I have fear of old age, sickness and death. I fear sickness and death of those who are dear to me. I have many kinds of fears. I also fear an unhappy rebirth. So long as one is not a sotapanna (streamwinner, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment), one may be reborn in an unhappy plane where there is no opportunity to develop satipatthana. The good deeds one performs in this life are no guarantee for a happy rebirth. A bad deed performed even in a past life may condition an unhappy rebirth. Answer : Unwholesome fear is a form of dosa, aversion. When dosa arises we do not like the object which is experienced at that moment. There are many forms of dosa. It may be a slight aversion or it may be hate, or it may take the form of fear or dread. When there is fear we shrink back from the object and would like to flee from it, or we may think with worry and dread about an unpleasant event which may happen in the future, such as old age, sickness and death, or an unhappy rebirth. ******* Nina #64060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 6:17 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 87 nilovg Dear friends, The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the paìisandhi-citta. There are nineteen types of paìisandhi-citta and thus there are nineteen types of bhavanga-citta. If the paìisandhi-citta is akusala vipåka, which is the case when there is birth in a woeful plane, all bhavanga-cittas of that life are akusala vipåka as well. If the paìisandhi-citta is ahetuka kusala vipåka, in which case one is handicapped from the first moment of life, all bhavanga-cittas of that life are ahetuka kusala vipåka as well. If the paìisandhi-citta is sahetuka (arising with sobhana hetus, beautiful roots), the bhavanga-citta is sahetuka as well. All bhavanga-cittas during a lifespan are of the same type as the paìisandhi-citta of that life, they arise with the same hetus, they are accompanied by the same cetasikas, mental factors. If one is born with two hetus, with alobha (non-attachment) and adosa (non-aversion), but without wisdom, then all bhavanga-cittas have only two hetus. Such a person can cultivate wisdom, but he cannot become enlightened during that life. If one is born with three hetus, which means that one is born with alobha, adosa and paññå (wisdom), all bhavanga-cittas are accompanied by these three sobhana hetus as well. Thus that person is more inclined to cultivate wisdom and, if he develops the eightfold Path, he can attain enlightenment during that life. If one is born with somanassa, happy feeling, all bhavanga-cittas of that life are accompanied by somanassa. Every citta must have an object and thus the bhavanga-citta too has an object. Seeing has what is visible as object; hearing has sound as object. The bhavanga-citta does not arise within a process of cittas and thus it has an object which is different from the objects which present themselves time and again and are experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind-door. The bhavanga-citta which is the same type of citta as the paìisandhi-citta also experiences the same object as the paìisandhi-citta. As we have seen (in chapter 10), the paìisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arose shortly before the dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, of the previous life. If akusala kamma produces the rebirth of the next life there will be an unhappy rebirth. In that case akusala cittas arise shortly before the dying-consciousness and they experience an unpleasant object. The paìisandhi-citta of the next life which succeeds the cuti- citta (the dying-consciousness), experiences that same unpleasant object. If kusala kamma produces the rebirth there will be a happy rebirth. In that case kusala cittas arise shortly before the cuti- citta and they experience a pleasant object. The paìisandhi-citta of the next life experiences that same pleasant object. Whatever the object is which is experienced by the last kusala cittas or akusala cittas of the previous life, the paìisandhi-citta experiences that same object. The paìisandhi-citta is succeeded by the first bhavanga- citta of that life and this citta experiences the same object as the paìisandhi-citta. Moreover, all bhavanga-cittas of that life experience that same object. ******* Nina #64061 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta the householder (was, Kasina meditation is evil?) buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > ... However, > > overall, I wouldn't say that Citta was teaching a great number of > > monks (if he taught any at all). The monks during the Buddha's time > > had the Buddha and his chief disciples, as well as many arahants, to > > learn the dhamma from. It would have been a sad state of affairs if > > monks had to go to householders for dhamma instruction. > > > > I don't see why this should be regarded as a 'sad state of affairs'. > There were lay-followers (male and female) who were enlightened James: From my understanding, any lay-follower who became enlightened would have to become a bhikkhu immediately or pass into paranibbana. The householder life and enlightenment are incompatible. I think that this fact states enough about the differences between the householder life and monkhood. and > monks who were not (attainment along the path is not directly related to > one's position, lifestyle or other circumstances). Any one with > understanding of the teachings can be a 'good friend' or 'wise person' > to associate with when the occasion is appropriate. > > Perhaps we'll have to agree to differ on this one ;-)) James: Yes, perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. We just keep going round and round. > > Jon > Metta, James #64062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Books on Dhamma nilovg Hi Phil, here is the link, on Rob's web: Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 13:40 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Is there one > called "understanding reality" or something like that? #64063 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 6:38 am Subject: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna) buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > James: Again, I see this as a non-issue. If the person concentrates > > on the kasina without the presence of kusala, jhana will not arise. > > If the person concentrates on the kasina with kusala, jhana will > > arise. So? What's your point? > > To my understanding, there is no such thing as 'concentration on a > kasina with kusala', as there is no kusala in concentration per se > (concentration is a mental factor that takes the ethical quality of the > consciousness it accompanies). > > The development of samatha spoken of in the Vism requires, I believe, > that the kammatthana (object of samatha consciousness) be contemplated > in a kusala way, that is to say, with some level of understanding (panna). James: Well, I have the Vism. right here in front of me, I have been reading it, and I don't see it stating anything of the sort. Exactly where does it state this? This is what it states: "But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. He should then approach the Good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that he should avoid a monastery unfavorable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable. Then he should sever the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the directions for development." In the remainder of the text, nowhere does it mention anything about contemplating the kasina object in a kusala manner. Again, Jon, this appears to be a non-issue and I am getting tired of discussing it. Unless you can give some proof of your position, I am not going to take it seriously (and no one else should either). > > Jon > Metta, James #64064 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 64 nilovg Dear Sarah, I am glad you mentioned the Dispeller. no. 1407. It is good to look at this ch 8. Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 12:36 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > By the way, the 'good states' in your quote below, according to > Dispeller > (Sammohavinodani) above, refer to 'both tranquillity and insight > and also > the path' in the case of 'unarisen profitable/good states' (anuppannaa > kusalaa dhammaa),and to tranquillity and insight only in the case of > 'arisen profitable states' (uppannaa kusalaa dhammaa). #64065 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew (and Phil, and Robert) - In a message dated 10/7/06 3:38:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > I suspect that the Buddha's remarks are not to be taken as telling me > that I must study Dhamma in the "Educated Australian English" dialect > and that my Aboriginal relative (by marriage) must study Dhamma > in "Aboriginal English". > ====================== Of course. I suspect that the Buddha wanted the Dhamma to be understood - period. I suspect he didn't want it to be the province of a select few who knew a special, provileged language, but wanted it to be available to any and all who had "but little dust in their eyes" regardless of station in life, location, culture, or background. The Buddha was loving and generous and open and held back nothing of need, not being a close-fist teacher. With metta, Howard #64066 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 86 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 10/7/06 4:16:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Matheesha, > Q. 1: We cannot experience the bhavangacitta when insight is not > developed. It is real, but I cannot experience it now. There are many > things taught in the Tipitaka I cannot experience yet. The Buddha > taught them and that means that it is possible to experience them. > What would otherwise be the use of studying Dhamma? > There are other things taught by the Buddha I can verify in my life. > Although I have no clear, direct understanding of the different > cittas, I find it most helpful to learn about them. To know that I > have many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Thanks to the > Buddha I will not continue to mislead myself my whole life. It is > beneficial to know the truth about oneself. > ======================= Are all bhavangacittas said to be identical in terms of object only? Or also in terms of kinds and degrees of cetasikas? If they are to be identical in *all* respects, how can there be insight in place in some but not in others. Insight is a cetasika. With metta, Howard #64067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) nilovg Dear Sarah and Han, What Han says is also Lodewijk's dilemma. He will not write about this, since he does not like discussions. I try to understand Han and Lodewijk. It is like this: all the accumulations we call character of this individual are different from those of that individual. Cittas and cetasikas perform their functions, this is not difficult for Lodewijk. They are non-self. He quite agrees. He objects to the word only: there are only cittas and cetasikas performing their functions. This is not the whole story. You see, this is another point of view. He says, we are different individuals acting in daily life each according to their accumulations. Did the Buddha, when people approached him, say: there are only, only citta, cetasika and rupa? But we can also interprete the word only as: they fall away immediately, and we should not take them as so important. See my discussion with Lodewijk. It depends how we read it. Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 12:49 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > there is > > nothing else but these cetasikas performing their > > functions, and at such moments, it is not self who > > abstains.” > > > > “it is not self who abstains” is correct from > > paramattha point of view, but to take that attitude > > seriously all the time is extreme. > .... > S: Even when we laugh and have fun, are there not only cittas and > cetasikas performing their functions? When there is abstaining from > wrong > speech or greedy behaviour, for example, is there anything other than > cittas and cetasikas abstaining? I don't see how anatta or > reflection and > understanding of dhammas as such can ever be extreme:-) #64068 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in New York, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 10/7/06 4:59:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dhamma in New York > > Last week, we had the wonderful opportunity to meet Howard in person > in New York. He came over all the way from Queens to meet us in a > Westside restaurant near Central Park. We were impressed by Howard’s > kindness, his knowledge and keen interest in the Dhamma. We were > truly delighted to have spent time with him. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As you know, I was at least equally delighted in our get-together. For the express purpose of letting the group know what you and Lodewijk are truly like, I am inserting right here a copy of my offlist post to you: - - - - - - - - - - Dear Nina & Lodewijk -       I expect you will not read this until you return home, but I want to write it now while the memory is still fresh.       I found today's visit with you to be delightful. You are both every bit as lovely in person as I expected you to be, which is considerably! Our conversations were pleasant and interesting, but mainly I simply enjoyed your company enormously.       You are very generous people. It was so very generous of you to take time here on your brief stay to spend with me, to take me to lunch, to bring me the books, and to walk back with me to the parking garage. I thank you so much for your kindness. It is rare to come across people who are as good as they are intelligent, and that description fits you both perfectly. I am very fond of you both. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ----------------------------------------------- > > > > Part I. > > The Brahmaviharas. > > N: For the development of metta we should know what metta is and what > its near enemy, selfish affection. We are able to know this thanks to > the Buddha. > > H: If metta is only a concept, it is purely intellectual, there is no > heart in that. This will not bring about the brahmaviharas. > > N: You have to know about it, otherwise you will mix kusala and akusala. > > H: Of course, we have to know what the goal is, what the practice is. > > N: A foundation knowledge is necessary. > > H: Absolutely. That is the beginning. But you cannot stay with that > beginning forever and hope that some day, by good luck the > brahmaviharas will arise. > > ------------- > > Nina. Here is an addition I would like to make now: > > It may seem purely intellectual to know about the near enemy of > metta, as if there is no heart in it. This is a good point Howard > made. However, when we learn that both kusala citta and citta with > attachment can be accompanied by happy feeling, it helps us not to > delude ourselves, taking for metta what is attachment. We know that > there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas in our life. > Whenever there is happy feeling, we can be sure that this usually > accompanies citta with attachment. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I would add that when one consistently pays genuine attention to what is happening, one learns to distinguish "happy" from "happy". A feeling of love that is free of self-servingness but is a true welling forth of a joyful wish for the well being and happiness of others, when it is there, is clearly recognizable. And when it is "alloyed", that is knowable as well. We just must not delude ourselves, but really look without blinders. ------------------------------------------ > > We learn that there should be equanimity (tatramajjhattataa, > evenmindedness) with all brahmaviharas. This means that there should > be impartiality, we should not be selective as to the persons metta > can be directed to. We also need truthfulness, not taking akusala for > kusala. ----------------------------------------- Howard: This, of course, is where we most often fall short. We DO pick and choose. But, if we watch carefully, and cultivate the mind, we can see this defilement of picking and choosing become less and less. And this is not a lessening of love for the select few, but a marvelous, and genuine, expansion of it to the many. ----------------------------------------- > > When we consider all this, there can be more understanding and this > guides the citta at the moment there is an opportunity for metta. In > other words, when there are conditions for sati and pa~n~naa, these > cetasikas assist the citta with true metta. There is no need to think > about it, it can arise spontaneously. > > ***** > > Nina. > > ======================= With metta, Howard #64069 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/7/06 5:07:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > The issue isn't the texts, but Pali versus the vernacular. > > > Right, I was mixing up the issues in my morning rush to get ready > for work. > > In the other thread you asked "you read the texts in Pali Phil?" > No, and I don't have any interest in learning Pali grammar to that > extent. Don't see that it's necessary. But using the Pali term to > identify paramattha dhammas in order to get everyone on the same > page asap - yes, I see value in that. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, provided one doesn't go overboard going in the specialized jargon direction, I agree with you. It is a great convenience. But sometimes it can have unexpected negative results as well. Think of how readily people have come to know the term 'karma' (the more typical form even among many Theravadins) while not really understanding the Buddha's meaning. Better to be long-winded but correct, thinking and saying "intention and intentional action" than saying and thinking "karma" (or even "kamma") without proper understanding. Even many here may easily and semi-consciously be inclined to subtly distinguish kamma from intention/volition. ---------------------------------------- > > As to > >taking something on faith without any experience - I will not do > that. I leave it > >as a possibility, but no more than that. > > Well, you will go that way, of course. I think the risk that it > turns into Howardism rather that Dhamma, but I'm sure you've > considered that possibility and know what you are doing. > -------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, I did not say I disbelieve in bhavangacittas. I neither believe nor disbelieve, but following the Kalama Sutta, I do NOT accept in on faith or basis of authority. Also, BTW, it is NOT a teaching of the Buddha's! --------------------------------------- For me, I > > find it fascinating that the Dhamma is a field in which accepting > what we do not and cannot (in all likelihood) know for ourselves in > this lifetime is one of the essential conditions for developing > understanding of what we can know. How fascinating that the Dhamma > is a field of knowleddge in which a thirst for understanding is > counterproductive. (We probably disagree there) So cool! --------------------------------------- Howard: The Dhamma is to be distinguished from catechism. -------------------------------------- > > I also like very much what Scott wrote in one of his posts: "I > found myself consolidating again > something I try to do as I learn, and that is, stay away from my own > ideas." I am not a sadhu sadhu sadhu kinda guy but I almost blurted > it out there! :) > > No more to say on the Pali topic from me, not until the next time > I do have something to say on it which could be in 3 minutes or so. > > Phil > > ========================= With metta, Howard #64070 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma sbillard2000 In the canonical or pseudo canonical books, perhaps the Milinda Panha ? In french there is an excellent introducatory book, by Walpola Rahula, called "l'enseignement du Bouddha d'après les textes les plus anciens", but I don't know if it exists in english. A more academic book, still in french is "la philosophie du Bouddha" by Mohan Wijayaratna Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr/referencement :: http://s.billard.free.fr/dotclear > Someone recently asked me what dhamma books I could recommend. > > So what are your all time favourite books? What books would be good to > introduce someone into buddhism? #64071 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 Yes it is a good translation :) Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr/referencement :: http://s.billard.free.fr/dotclear >I guess that 'eventuellement' might translate into English as >"according to conditions". #64072 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma in New York, no 1. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you again for your kind words. I like your remark below and want to illustrate it. We had planned to spend a quiet Christmas together, nobody else around. Before these days were always filled with so many chores for my father (which I do not regret now!). Then family members from France want to visit us for Christmas. They are not exactly the persons I have much contact with. Then I remembered Susie's remark about being selective with metta I had read to Lodewijk. It is so easy to have kindness for the ones we like, but, this is not real metta. So we concluded that we would have an opportunity for metta. Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 17:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > This, of course, is where we most often fall short. We DO pick and > choose. But, if we watch carefully, and cultivate the mind, we can > see this > defilement of picking and choosing become less and less. And this > is not a > lessening of love for the select few, but a marvelous, and genuine, > expansion of it to > the many. #64073 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sbillard2000 Thanks Nina I will use the Zolag version now :) Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr/referencement :: http://s.billard.free.fr/dotclear > Zolag web has it on line, but lost all the footnotes. #64074 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma nilovg Dear Sebastien, I think this is the same as in English. it is good and it may help with terms in French. Nina Op 7-okt-2006, om 18:59 heeft Sebastien Billard het volgende geschreven: > In french there is an excellent introducatory book, by Walpola Rahula, > called "l'enseignement du Bouddha d'après les textes les plus anciens" #64075 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:07 am Subject: fear??? lbidd2 Hi all, I've been looking high and low for an abhidhamma analysis of fear, but I can't find any such thing anywhere. There are plenty of suttas in which fear is referenced and a tiny bit about the insight knowledge of the fearfulness of dissolution, and something that likens fear to dukkha as a general characteristic, but no real analysis of fear itself. It seems to me this is either a grave oversight or an unwillingness to take up a difficult subject. We need a remedy!!! Larry **Of course there is the cetasika ottappa (fear of wrong doing), but I think this is mostly a matter of conscience, a relatively minor fear. #64076 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma sbillard2000 Oh yes the english title is "What the Buddha Taught" :) Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr/referencement :: http://s.billard.free.fr/dotclear >I think this is the same as in English. it is good and it may help >with terms in French. #64077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? nilovg Hi Larry, you could look at my Letter today: Answer : Unwholesome fear is a form of dosa, aversion. When dosa arises we do not like the object which is experienced at that moment. There are many forms of dosa. It may be a slight aversion or it may be hate, or it may take the form of fear or dread. When there is fear we shrink back from the object and would like to flee from it, or we may think with worry and dread about an unpleasant event which may happen in the future, such as old age, sickness and death, or an unhappy rebirth. ------- Tomorrow I will continue with this. Anticipating I quote a little: Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 19:07 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > I've been looking high and low for an abhidhamma analysis of fear, > but I can't find any such > thing anywhere. #64078 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? lbidd2 Hi Nina, I thought about dosa but it didn't seem to me to be quite the same thing. I guess that's where it has to go though. There's no place else for it. What about the insight knowledge of fear, is that dosa also? Vism.XXI,29: "As he repeats, develops, and cultivates in this way the contemplation of dissolution, the object of which is cessation consisting in the destruction, fall and breakup of all formations, then formations classed according to all kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station, or abode of beings, appear to him in the form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, leopards, bears, hyaenas, spirits, ogres, fierce bulls, savage dogs, rut-maddened wild elephants, hideous venomous serpents, thunderbolts, charnel grounds, battlefields, flaming coal pits, etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in peace. When he sees how past formations have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and those to be generated in the future will cease in just the same way, then what is called knowledge of appearance as terror arises in him at that stage." Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > you could look at my Letter today: > Answer : Unwholesome fear is a form of dosa, aversion. When dosa > arises we do not like the object which is experienced at that moment. > There are many forms of dosa. It may be a slight aversion or it may > be hate, or it may take the form of fear or dread. When there is fear > we shrink back from the object and would like to flee from it, or we > may think with worry and dread about an unpleasant event which may > happen in the future, such as old age, sickness and death, or an > unhappy rebirth. > ------- #64079 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ditthi (Jon) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Right, I'd forgotten about that - this is an interesting point. > Cittas rooted in dosa are never accompanied by wrong view. Interesting, > one would think "hate" would be accompanied by wrong view. This might > be another thing that helps us to understand how lobha leads to dosa. > Attachment with wrong view to dhammas conditioning dosa when the > attachment is frustrated, but the wrong view is all in the lobha. > Not sure that wrong view has any particular role to play in fact of lobha being a condition for dosa. Even without wrong view, the frustration of attachment leads to dosa. > What about killing? Surely the citta that propels an act of killing > is rooted in dosa, but there is no ditthi accompanying it? I guess the > ditthi is there, rooted in lobha, but at a different split second > moment apart. Dosa > lobha rooted citta accompanied by wrong view that > says its ok to kill> dosa> dosa > SPLAT!!! Not a thought out process, > just a flash of an impulse that communicates "ok to kill" in a non- > verbal view? I think the intention to kill arises because of the aversion and not because of holding the idea that 'OK to kill'. The idea of 'not OK to kill' can happily coexist with wrong view ;-)) The kind of situation where wrong view could clearly come into play would be where the view was held that taking life promotes wholesomeness or pleasant results. Examples would be: animal sacrifice as leading to purification of past deeds (or whatever); Angulimala (who was following the advice of his spiritual teacher). > (The splat is a mosquito, folks. Not a motorcyle driver. > But the dynamic, if correct - I doubt it - wouldn't be any different. > Or would it? Maybe the "view" element would be more pronounced since > killing a human would demand more justification from wrong view. > > Just thinking out loud. > An interesting area. But even without the view element, plain old lobha and dosa could account for the unwholesome deeds. Jon #64080 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 87 hantun1 Dear Nina, It is with regard to cuti citta, patisandhi citta, and bhavanga citta taking the same object. My understanding is the three cittas that take the same object are: cuti citta of past life, patisandhi citta of present life, and bhavanga citta of present life. and NOT patisandhi citta of present life, bhavanga citta of present life, and cuti citta of present life. Please correct me if I am wrong. Respectfully, Han #64081 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Mateesha (and Sarah), Before you recommend beginners a book, first offer them a word of advice. Caution them that the Dhamma is not about going to heaven (less still about going to nibbana) and it is not even about becoming enlightened. They might have a lot of trouble understanding what on earth you are talking about. Therefore, make sure they agree 'the past no longer exists and the future has never existed.' Eventually, they will have to agree there is only the present moment. Make sure they agree that living in the present moment does not entail talking to Matheesha about books - it is much too brief for that! When they have finally caught on about the significance of the present moment (when they realise the Buddha could not possibly have taught about anything else) they might say, "That is really profound! Tell us more! What are the realities that are arising now?" That is when you can tell them to join DSG and maybe buy some books about paramattha dhammas. The books should be "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and any of the books by Nina van Gorkom. Others (e.g., What the Buddha Taught) can be of assistance, but it must be understood that their authors (like all of us) tend to forget there is no self. That is to say, their authors tend to believe in the possibility of continuing on from the present moment to a life in heaven or to the attainment of enlightenment and that sort of thing. Therefore their books tend to be about what the Buddha DID NOT TEACH. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > <. . .> >I think it makes a big > difference what kind of cultural background someone is coming from as well > - if one has been brought up in Sri Lanka as a Buddhist or comes from a > Western philosophical/psychological background etc. Perhaps Howard, Ken H > and all the others will add their comments. #64082 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta the householder (was, Kasina meditation is evil?) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > James: From my understanding, any lay-follower who became > enlightened would have to become a bhikkhu immediately or pass into > paranibbana. The householder life and enlightenment are > incompatible. I think that this fact states enough about the > differences between the householder life and monkhood. > This applies to the attainment of full enlightenment (arahantship) but not to the attainment of the lesser degrees of enlightenment. I agree that the lay life and the monks' life (properly lived) are quite different (but this does not mean that insight cannot be developed, or enlightenment attained, by lay followers). Jon #64083 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:03 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Plamen, Yes this is true about Indian systems. However I am more concern about truth than a cultural view. Please don't take this the wrong way - I thank you for your comment. I would just like to make 2 real models of the mind. One based on a Buddhist view and one based on modern science and .. This is the only reason I included the brain. But keep commenting. It helps me to see when I may be off track. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Plamen Gradinarov Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 09:53 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Dear Charles, > it can however be argued that this is the > brain, the container of the Mind), sensory channels/nerve pathways. Please keep in mind, that Indian systems are "brainless." Mind is not in any way connected to the physical brain (mastiska), it rather resides in the heart. Kindest regards, Plamen #64084 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:21 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] What is Mind dacostacharles Hi Plamen, I am a little confused here. Do you mean the Mind is consciousness, which has the following as aggregates: sense-facilities, intellect, and the I-factor? What is the I-factor? I have herd about a personality aggregate called motivations/needs. Is this what you mean? Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Plamen Gradinarov Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 18:28 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] What is Mind Dear Charles, In the technical (paribhasika) language of Buddhist philosophy, mind is only the seventh dharma in the vijnana-skandha, i.e., manas. In the other systems of Indian philosophy, it is considered either an independent substance (dravya) demonstrating the highest possible degree of velocity (paramavega) - because of the necessity to have its objects one at a time (this in Nyaya-Vaisesika), or a particular branch in the evolution of the noetic energies (bhutadi vaikarika- ahamkara) that give rise to the sense-organs (indriyas) taken as faculties rather than as material organs (Samkhya-Yoga). In this particular system, citta (consciousness) comprises manas (mind), buddhi (intellect), and ahamkara (the I-factor). Kindest regards, Plamen #64085 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:11 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard, If I understand you correctly, there should only be the following 4 aggregates: 1) Attention 2) Instances of judging a sensation (pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral) 3) Perception and Memories 4) Formation Do you consider these the aggregates of the Mind as a whole or just Clinging? Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... <...> =========================== I would strike # 1 from the list of types of phenomena covered by 'mind'. Material form may be appear as the "object-content of mind", but itself is not mental. It is physical. Form is known, but never a type of knowing. That is why it is not nama. BTW, I prefer in Dhamma conversation to speak more of "form" than "matter", the latter definitely suggesting to me objective, external, material *substance*. Relatedly, one thing that I dislike about Lankavatara-Sutta type philosophical idealism is its implication of the existence of a "mind stuff" or mental substance. I think that any leaning towards substantialism is a deviation from true Dhamma. Also, the Buddha included attention in place of consciousness under 'mind' (nama), which suits me just fine. I think of vi~n~nana as "merely" experiential presence of object, with the various more specific modes of apprehending the object being covered by the rest. In some places, the Buddha distinguishes namarupa from vi~n~nana, though in the sheaves of reeds sutta he asserts their mutual dependency. Another minor matter: I don't like the term 'sensation' to be used as translation for 'vedana'. To me, sensations are (experienced) 5-sense-door rupas, often body-door rupas. Vedanas are activations/instances of the operation of affectively "tasting" object-content as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. With metta, Howard #64086 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 1:56 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Detachment dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I think part of the misunderstanding of "Detachment" in the Buddhist sense of the word comes from it being a poor translation. Tibetans have taught me to use the term "Open." Because when you are attached to something you become close to "other than .". Charles DaCosta <...> > Detachment in the Buddhist sense should lead to contentment and > unconditional happiness. .... S: Yes! Good comment. It is attachment which leads to discontent. Metta, Sarah #64087 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:28 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard, We think of sensations as the capacity to feel what is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. What about the "Flight-or-Fight" response and other reactions that psychologist believe are instinctive Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... <...> Another minor matter: I don't like the term 'sensation' to be used as translation for 'vedana'. To me, sensations are (experienced) 5-sense-door rupas, often body-door rupas. Vedanas are activations/instances of the operation of affectively "tasting" object-content as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. With metta, Howard <...> #64088 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 3:40 pm Subject: Re: fear??? philofillet Hi Larry > I've been looking high and low for an abhidhamma analysis of fear, but I can't find any such > thing anywhere. I have thought this too. Hugely important topic, and it's strange that it's not more explicity considered, because it is fear that has always and will always be the driving force behind all religions, including Buddhism. Fear is what motivates a lot of our Dhamma study, meditation, whether we know it or not. In abhidhamma, we'll find that it's more in the three roots rather than a specific "fear" cetasika, I think, something to do with the lobha>dosa>lobha>dosa accumulation process, losing and finding and losing and finding places of comfort. Gotta run now but thanks for bringing this up. We have to be honest that even our noblest Buddhist aspirations are usually motivated by fear - that's what I think anyways. Phil #64089 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? scottduncan2 Dear Larry, A suggestion? Vism.XXI,29: "...terror arises in him at that stage." Is this known as "bhaya ~naa.na?" Bhaya seems to be a synonym for fear. Tentatively, Scott. #64090 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma matheesha333 Hello Sarah, Nina and others Thanks for the contributions so far from everyone. Mindfulness in plain english by Bhanthe Gunarathana was a hit on another site. Sarah asked about my personal preferences. I loved this little booklet when I first started. Practical advice for meditators by bikkhu khantipalo http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Practical_Advice_for_Meditators_by_ Bhikkhu_Khantipalo Never had an introductory book as such as my initial buddhist education was at school in sri lanka. I liked most books by ajhan chah for their simplicity and depth. The sutta pitaka has remained an inspiration and will remain to do so. (Bikkhu bodhi, Nanamoli, Thanissaro) Has anyone read "Loving-kindness: The Revolutionary Art of Happiness" by Sharon Salzberg, or The Art of Living: Vipassana Meditation as Taught by S.N. Goenka ? with metta Matheesha #64091 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? lbidd2 Hi Scott, Fear is a translation of bhaya. Bhaya~nana seems to be a wholesome fear, but I'm not sure. ??? Larry ----------------- S: "Is this known as "bhaya ~naa.na?" Bhaya seems to be a synonym for fear." #64092 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma matheesha333 Hi Ken, > >K: When they have finally caught on about the significance of the present > moment (when they realise the Buddha could not possibly have taught > about anything else) they might say, "That is really profound! Tell us > more! What are the realities that are arising now?" M: Actually if they have understood the importance of the present moment, the first question would be 'how can i see it for myself now, or why cannot i see it for myself now' not 'what realities are arising now' which is yet another joy ride into conceptualisation and theory - away from the very present moment you are trying to see. Thanks for all the warnings/advice. regards, Matheesha #64093 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: fear??? lbidd2 Hi Phil, Thanks for your comments. I guess ultimately we just fear pain, but ironically fear is painful. I agree it's everywhere. If it's dosa then, like dukkha, it is conditioned by lobha. Larry #64094 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 5:03 pm Subject: A Systematic Study of the Majjhima Nikaya-Bhikkhu Bodhi matheesha333 A Systematic Study of the Majjhima Nikaya Taught by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.bodhimonastery.net/mntalks_audio.html #64095 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 5:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: fear??? matheesha333 Hi Larry, I hope you have seen the bhayabherava sutta, on fear. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/004-bhayabera-sutta-e2.html Also Bhaya sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.062.than.html with metta Matheesha #64096 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi Ken Wow! You are a real terrier on present realities aren't you? I respect that. But I think it is very unlikely that newcomers to Buddhism will respond to this approach. I think general introduction books are better. If there are conditions for people to respond to deeper teachings (such as those found in Survey of Paramttha Dhammas) they will come to that as dissatisfaction with a shallower approach arises. But even people who don't respond to the deeper teachings can benefit from the Dhamma in other ways that are found through the general books - I think the simile of the Buddha being a physician who helps different people in different ways is a good one. That's the way I see it but as I say I respect the way you keep at the paramattha dhammas - the truest, deepest teaching, I agree. Phil > Make sure they > agree that living in the present moment does not entail talking to > Matheesha about books - it is much too brief for that! > > When they have finally caught on about the significance of the present > moment (when they realise the Buddha could not possibly have taught > about anything else) they might say, "That is really profound! Tell us > more! What are the realities that are arising now?" > > That is when you can tell them to join DSG and maybe buy some books > about paramattha dhammas. The books should be "A Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and any of the books by Nina van > Gorkom. #64097 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 6:05 pm Subject: Re: A Systematic Study of the Majjhima Nikaya-Bhikkhu Bodhi scottduncan2 > A Systematic Study of the > Majjhima Nikaya > Taught by Bhikkhu Bodhi Wow, thank you very much! Scott. #64098 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/7/06 6:21:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > > If I understand you correctly, there should only be the following 4 > aggregates: > > 1) Attention > > 2) Instances of judging a sensation (pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively > neutral) > > 3) Perception and Memories > > 4) Formation > > > > Do you consider these the aggregates of the Mind as a whole or just > Clinging? --------------------------------------------- Howard: It's not what I believe or consider. There are the usual 5 aggregates. In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality." That is his definition of nama. And these namic elements may be defiled or freed from defilement. ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Charles DaCosta > ========================= With metta, Howard #64099 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/7/06 6:25:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > > We think of sensations as the capacity to feel what is pleasant, unpleasant, > or neutral. -------------------------------------- Howard: I do not think of sensations as that. I think of them as rupas that are experienced, and most typically body-door rupas. Those sensations may be felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral, but that is another issue. ---------------------------------------- What about the "Flight-or-Fight" response and other reactions> > that psychologist believe are instinctive --------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is a complex matter involving a sequence of many mindstates. Included would be fear, heightened attention, a sense of urgency, and a very quick semi-conscious process of thought. In other words, it's a bunch of cetasikas. ------------------------------------- > > > > Charles DaCosta > > _____ > > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... > <...> > Another minor matter: I don't like the term 'sensation' to be used as > translation for 'vedana'. To me, sensations are (experienced) 5-sense-door > rupas, often body-door rupas. Vedanas are activations/instances of the > operation > of affectively "tasting" object-content as pleasant, unpleasant, or > affectively neutral. > > With metta, > Howard > ===================== With metta, Howard #64100 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 8:23 pm Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma scottduncan2 Dear Phil, P: "...But I think it is very unlikely that newcomers to Buddhism will respond to this approach...If there are conditions for people to respond to deeper teachings (such as those found in Survey of Paramttha Dhammas) they will come to that as dissatisfaction with a shallower approach arises..." The above, more or less, was my experience. The general works I read seemed quickly to disappoint. They don't seem to capture the depth of the Dhamma as does plunging right in. The authors' position is often the focus - not necessarily the Dhamma. I find that some of these texts are good for the true general introduction, but for the pursuit of the deep and profound Dhamma, these are of no help. I still recall the sense of joy I felt in reading Survey of Paramattha Dhamma. This drove me into the Abhidhamma texts and, as now, into the ocean of pa.t.thaana. Albeit a difficult struggle, one of many re-readings and much contemplation. Its like learning to thread a needle with a very thin silk strand into the eye of a very tiny needle. Going back to an earlier text - can one refer to these as pop-buddhism - seems like threading a rope through a large ring. With my own opinion, obviously, Scott. #64101 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 87 rjkjp1 Dear Han Cuti citta takes exactly the same object as patisandhi and bhavanga, how could it take an object from a future life? Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > It is with regard to cuti citta, patisandhi citta, and > bhavanga citta taking the same object. > > My understanding is the three cittas that take the > same object are: > > cuti citta of past life, patisandhi citta of present > life, and bhavanga citta of present life. > > and NOT > > patisandhi citta of present life, bhavanga citta of > present life, and cuti citta of present life. > > Please correct me if I am wrong. > Respectfully, > Han > #64102 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 87 hantun1 Dear Robert, > > Han: My understanding is the three cittas that take the same object are: cuti citta of past life, patisandhi citta of present life, and bhavanga citta of present life. and NOT patisandhi citta of present life, bhavanga citta of present life, and cuti citta of present life. -------------------- > Robert: Cuti citta takes exactly the same object as patisandhi and bhavanga, how could it take an object from a future life? -------------------- Han: When you said “Cuti citta takes exactly the same object as patisandhi and bhavanga,” can you kindly specify cuti citta of which life, patisandhi citta of which life, and bhavanga citta of which life, as I have clearly indicated in my statement? I did not use the word “future” at all in my statement. What gives you the idea that I was referring to anything of future life. Han --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Han > Cuti citta takes exactly the same object as > patisandhi and > bhavanga, how could it take an object from a future > life? > Robert > #64103 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 87 rjkjp1 Dear Han Sorry my mistake. I misread you. You are entirely correct deepest apolgies Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > Han: > My understanding is the three cittas that take the > same object are: > cuti citta of past life, patisandhi citta of present > life, and bhavanga citta of present life. > and NOT > patisandhi citta of present life, bhavanga citta of > present life, and cuti citta of present life. > > -------------------- > > > Robert: > Cuti citta takes exactly the same object as patisandhi > and bhavanga, how could it take an object from a > future life? > > -------------------- > > Han: > When you said "Cuti citta takes exactly the same > object as patisandhi and bhavanga," can you kindly > specify cuti citta of which life, patisandhi citta of > which life, and bhavanga citta of which life, as I > have clearly indicated in my statement? > > I did not use the word "future" at all in my > statement. > What gives you the idea that I was referring to > anything of future life. > > Han > > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Dear Han > > Cuti citta takes exactly the same object as > > patisandhi and > > bhavanga, how could it take an object from a future > > life? > > Robert > > #64104 From: "Kaveenga" Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 8:27 pm Subject: Newbie to the group kaveenga Dear Venerable Ones and Friends, About a month ago I joined the DhammaStudyGroup and silently listened to the Dhamma discussions. I thought it would be nice to announce myself and express my gratitude to the members who contribute their wisdom and time, and to those members who ask questions which cause to make the deep dhamma be expounded in more detail. My name is Kaveenga (mka Kavee) and I am originally from Sri Lanka. Hence grew up and learned in the Theravada tradition. About 6 years ago I moved to Sydney, Australia, and developed an appreciation for the other buddhist traditions. My knowledge is dhamma is mostly limited to the theravada suttas, and I have been trying to practice the dhamma to the best of my abilities over the last 8-9 years. I am keen on developing my understanding of the dhamma even further and practice the dhamma to the limits which are possible by a lay buddhist. Enough said :-) Shall go back to listening. Namo to the kalayanamittayo in this group with mettá Kavee #64105 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 87 hantun1 Dear Robert, No apologies needed, Robert. I always respect your views, and will continue to do so. Respectfully, Han --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Han > Sorry my mistake. I misread you. You are entirely > correct > deepest apolgies > Robert > #64106 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 7, 2006 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? nilovg Hi Larry, In Pali bhaya, this is fear, or close in meaning to danger. Right, bhaya ~naa.na: insight that sees the danger and disadvantage of nama and rupa, and this insight is wholesome. If you look in PED you will see many places where bhaya is used. Danger of death, etc. Vis. XVI, 87: the four noble Truths under the aspect of bhaya: the first is fear, the second: the cause of fear, then freedom from fear, the means to attain this freedom. Here it is close to danger. Thus, we have to look at the context. Nina. Op 7-okt-2006, om 20:11 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > What about the insight knowledge > of fear, is that dosa also? #64107 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 12:00 am Subject: Awareness Analysis ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Analysis of the Four Foundations of Awareness! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, I will teach you: A: The Foundation of Awareness, B: The building up of the Foundation of Awareness, & C: The Way to build up the Foundation of Awareness !!! Listen to that... A: And what, Bhikkhus, is the Foundation of Awareness??? While always acutely alert & clearly comprehending, thus removing any envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent rooted in this world, the wise Bhikkhu keeps regarding the: 1: Body as an alien frame of filthy foulness... 2: Feeling as a banal ever recurring reactivity... 3: Mind as a habituated set of bizarre mentalities... 4: Phenomena as mentally constructed appearances... This is the Foundation of Awareness...!!! B: And what, Bhikkhus, is building up this Foundation of Awareness??? While always acutely alert & clearly comprehending, thus removing any envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent rooted in this world, the wise Bhikkhu keeps considering the: 1: Body as something bound to emerge, decay and vanish... 2: Feeling as something naturally arising & fading away... 3: Mind as of nature to appear, disappear, flutter & flicker... 4: Phenomena as momentary manifestations always ending... This is building up the Foundation of Awareness...!!! C: And what is the Way to build this Foundation of Awareness??? It is just this Noble 8-fold Way, namely: Right View (samma-ditthi) Right Motivation (samma-sankappa) Right Speech (samma-vaca) Right Action (samma-kammanta) Right Livelihood (samma-ajiva) Right Effort (samma-vayama) Right Awareness (samma-sati) Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) This is the Way to build this Foundation of Awareness...!!! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 186] 47 Foundations of Awareness: 44 Analysis.. Details On Four Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. <...> #64108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Newbie to the group nilovg Dear Kavee, welcome to our group. Instead of silently listening you could perhaps express a remark or question, this is to the benefit of all of us. How do you see: practice the dhamma to the limits which are possible by a lay buddhist? Nina. Op 8-okt-2006, om 5:27 heeft Kaveenga het volgende geschreven: > I am keen on > developing my understanding of the dhamma even further and practice > the > dhamma to the limits which are possible by a lay buddhist. #64109 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 2:55 am Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Phil, ------------- Ph: > Wow! You are a real terrier on present realities aren't you? I respect that. But I think it is very unlikely that newcomers to Buddhism will respond to this approach. ---------------- Thanks, Phil. Sorry to be argumentative, but I think we should define "newcomers to Buddhism." Needless to say, there should be no deception; even newcomers should know that they are not being offered eternal life in heaven. Otherwise, they would actually be 'newcomers to eternalist religion' who had stumbled into the wrong church. :-) I know you are not saying there *should* be deception, but how could people be allowed to think of the Dhamma other than in terms of 'the present namas and rupas?' Wouldn't that necessarily [even though indirectly] involve deception of some kind? --------------------------------- Ph: > I think general introduction books are better. If there are conditions for people to respond to deeper teachings (such as those found in Survey of Paramttha Dhammas) they will come to that as dissatisfaction with a shallower approach arises. ---------------------------------- You could be right, but it seems a bit like trickery to me. --------------------------------------------------- Ph: > But even people who don't respond to the deeper teachings can benefit from the Dhamma in other ways that are found through the general books - I think the simile of the Buddha being a physician who helps different people in different ways is a good one. --------------------------------------------------- I have heard of that simile, but I don't know the details. Certainly, some Buddhists have simple aspirations and admit to being disinterested in enlightenment. They aspire to nothing more than a happy rebirth. I don't know what such people were told in the Buddha's day, but I feel sure they were not misled in any way. I think it was made clear to everyone that there were, ultimately, only dhammas. ------------------------ Ph: > That's the way I see it but as I say I respect the way you keep at the paramattha dhammas - the truest, deepest teaching, I agree. ------------------------ I like to imagine how it was [back in 500BC] when word got around that there was a Buddha - teaching final release from dukkha. I think the vast majority of people (those with quite a lot of dust in their eyes) would have said, "Well, I am not ready for parinibbana - it sounds to me like disappearing in a puff of smoke, and that is not my idea of the ultimate goal. But I am ready to listen and learn." Ken H #64110 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:05 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 543- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd Questions i Why can, in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, only one of the three abstinences arise at a time? ii At which moment do all three abstinences arise together? Which function do they have in that case? iii Can the abstinences accompany mahå-vipåkacitta of the sense-sphere? iv Why can the abstinences not accompany jhånacitta? v When is wrong livelihood eradicated? vi What is idle talk? vii When we talk about an accident is it always motivated by akusala citta? viii Why is fewness of wishes one of the proximate causes of abstinence from wrong conduct? ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)finished! Metta, Sarah ====== #64111 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Matheesha, ---------- >K: When they have finally caught on about the significance of the present > moment (when they realise the Buddha could not possibly have taught > about anything else) they might say, "That is really profound! Tell us > more! What are the realities that are arising now?" M: Actually if they have understood the importance of the present moment, the first question would be 'how can i see it for myself now, or why cannot i see it for myself now' not 'what realities are arising now' which is yet another joy ride into conceptualisation and theory - away from the very present moment you are trying to see. Thanks for all the warnings/advice. ------------------ If I understand you correctly, you are saying the right question (or request) would be, "Show me how to know the dhammas that are arising now." Strictly speaking, of course, it is too late for that. The dhammas that are arising now are also falling away now (in the same mind-moment). It is too late to embark on a mission to see them. My suggestion - "What are the dhammas that are arising now?" - was not meant as a technique or strategy for knowing dhammas. I was simply saying that a person who finds himself asking that question has already understood the Dhamma to some extent. He is curious to know more about conditionality and the four noble truths. He is on the right track. Ken H #64112 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 543- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina and others, Questions Question (i) Why can, in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, only one of the three abstinences arise at a time? Answer: The abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere, kamavacara cittas, arise only one at a time, because their objects of focus (arammana) are different, and also because the abstention only occurs at the actual moment of there being a temptation, for example, to kill or steal. It is all in a flash, and so fast. Therefore, the abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere, kamavacara cittas, can arise only one at a time ------------------------------ Question (ii) At which moment do all three abstinences arise together? Which function do they have in that case? Answer: When lokuttara cittas arise, all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara cittas and arise together taking nibbana as the object. They then function as the right speech, right action and right livelihood of the supramundane eightfold Path. ------------------------------- Question (iii) Can the abstinences accompany maha-vipakacittas of the sense-sphere? Answer: No, they cannot accompany maha-vipakacittas of the sense-sphere, because vipaka cittas, being resultant cittas, are kammically neutral that produce no kammic results, whereas the abstinences, by abstaining from wrong action, wrong speech and wrong livelihood, can produce kammic results. ---------------------------- Question (iv) Why can the abstinences not accompany jhanacitta? Answer: They do not accompany jhanacittas because there is no opportunity for abstention when the citta is jhanacitta. ------------------------------ Question (v) When is wrong livelihood eradicated? Answer: When abstinence from wrong livelihood, ajiva-duccarita virati, becomes the right livelihood, samma-ajiva, of the supramundane eightfold Path. ------------------------------ Question (vi) What is idle talk? Answer: The idle talk is a speech that is not motivated by kusala citta that is generous and intent on helping others or on explaining the Dhamma to others, but instead, it is a speech that is useless, silly, not producing anything good, and idle gossip talking about other people’s actions and private lives, or useless talks just to keep the conversation going. The anagami, the person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the tendency to slandering and harsh speech but not yet the tendency to idle talk. The tendency to idle talk has only been eradicated by the arahat. ------------------------------ Question (vii) When we talk about an accident is it always motivated by akusala citta? Answer: Not always motivated by akusala citta. We may chat with akusala citta about accidents or other events which happen during the day. However, we can also talk with kusala citta about events such as accidents; for example, we may talk about an accident in order to remind ourselves and others of the shortness of life. ------------------------------ Question (viii) Why is fewness of wishes one of the proximate causes of abstinence from wrong conduct? Answer: Fewness of wishes, contentment, being satisfied with little (appicchataa) is the opposite of greed (lobha). Lobha is one of the three very powerful akusala muula cetasikas which can condition wrong conduct by hetu-paccaya. Therefore, if there is less lobha or more appicchataa it is more likely that a person will abstain from wrong conduct. A Burmese Sayadaw once said that “the one whose wishes are most fulfilled is the one who has fewest wishes.” Thus, the appicchataa, like saddhaa, hiri, and ottappa, is one of the proximate causes of abstinence from wrong conduct. Respectfully, Han #64113 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Nina and members : chapt 1 in "Abhidamma in daily life" sarahprocter... Hi Howard, RobK (Nina, Phil, Andrew & all), I tend to agree with most of Howard's comments in this thread (such as those quoted at the end of the post), though I also find it helpful to have Pali terms added as well. Andrew wrote: > If Schumann's assessment of the language situation at the Buddha's > time is correct, then there is something to be said for Buddhaghosa' s > recorded interpretation: use a language you all understand (Pali) > rather than a more elite form (Sanskrit or ?East Magadhi lower caste > creole). Perhaps the Buddha could see that presenting the teachings > in Sanskrit verses would lock them away from a large part of the > general population and ultimately ossify them, shortening the > dispensation? ... RobK write: >that seems a reasonable take on it. What do other members think? .... S: Yes, like Howard, I think we should use whatever language (usually our native language) helps us to clarify the meaning and really reflect on the teachings. His comments are very similar to ones I've heard K.Sujin making to people in this regard. Who knows what languages we used in our last life and those we use now (including Pali) will all be forgotten too. It's the understanding that counts. Rob, you quoted from the Vinaya at this link texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20048.htm (Rhys Davids transl) Here is i.B.Horner's translation of the same passage (slightly abbreviated): "......'At present, Lord, monks of various names, various clans, various social strata have gone forth from various families; these corrupt the speech of the Awakened One in (using) his own dialect [sakaaya niruttiyaa - the current Magadhese manner of speech]. Now we, Lord, give the speech of the Awakened One in metrical form [chandaso aaropema - an honoured dialect like a Veda, possibly Sanskrit].' The Awakened One, the Lord rebuked them, saying: 'How can you, foolish men, speak thus....etc' 'Monks, the speech of the Awakened One should not be given in metrical form. Whoever should (so) give it, there is an offence of wrong-doing. I allow you, monks, to learn the speech of the Awakened One according to his own dialect.' " --- upasaka@... wrote: > There is no magic in the Pali. No language is better than any > other > one. Linguists make that point repeatedly. And, in fact, the Buddha > specifically > urged the teaching of the Dhamma in the vernacular. That is, he urged > the > teaching of it to people in their own language and dialect. > Of course, when a Pali word has come to be well understood by > Buddhists, they will incorporate it into their own language as a useful > borrowing. ... > Of course. I suspect that the Buddha wanted the Dhamma to be > understood - period. I suspect he didn't want it to be the province of a > select few who > knew a special, provileged language, but wanted it to be available to > any and > all who had "but little dust in their eyes" regardless of station in > life, > location, culture, or background. The Buddha was loving and generous and > open > and held back nothing of need, not being a close-fist teacher. ..... Metta, Sarah ====== #64114 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Nina (Han & Lodewijk), I think we can all sympathise with the dilemmas. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > It is like this: all the accumulations we call character of this > individual are different from those of that individual. .... S: This is only so when we speak generally or conventionally - yes, different accumulations. But in fact, lobha is lobha - not an individual's. Accumulations are nothing more than the cittas and cetasikas arising now. Not mine, yours or Lodewijk's, surely? .... >Cittas and > cetasikas perform their functions, this is not difficult for > Lodewijk. They are non-self. He quite agrees. > He objects to the word only: there are only cittas and > cetasikas performing their functions. This is not the whole story. .... S: When we are referring to accumulations or realities at this moment which experience objects, what else are there? .... > You see, this is another point of view. He says, we are different > individuals acting in daily life each according to their > accumulations. Did the Buddha, when people approached him, say: > there are only, only citta, cetasika and rupa? .... S: As I said to Han, it's not a matter of the language or of giving the right answer, but it is a question of the understanding. Those who listened to the Buddha and understood his words had no doubt that there are only citta, cetasika and rupa, no matter how we refer to them. "Though the wise one has transcended the conceived, He still might say, 'I speak,' He might say too, 'They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions." SN 1:25 ... > But we can also interprete the word only as: they fall away > immediately, and we should not take them as so important. .... S: Yes. By 'only' I mean there really are only the 5 khandhas and this is what the Buddha showed us - 5 khandhas which arise and fall away immediately, not any self to whom they belong. Mere phenomena rolling on.... As the bhikkhuni Sela replied to Mara: "This puppet is not made by itself, Nor is this misery made by another. It has come to be dependent on a cause; With teh cause's breakup it will cease. "As when a seed is sown in a field It grows depending on a pair of factors: It requires both the soil's nutrients And a steady supply of moisture: "Just so the aggregates and elements, And these six bases of sensory contact, Have come to be dependent on a cause; With the cause's breakup they will cease." SN5:9 ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #64115 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Mind pgradinarov Dear Charles, If you are interested in the epistemological and methodological rather than soteriological aspects of Buddhism, I would recommend starting with some Abhidhamma/Abhidharma work, be it Abhidhammattha- sangaha or Abhidharmakosa. First is available online: http://www.abhidhamma.com/abhidhamma_books.html The AK, however, should be purchased (~$300). As for the ahamkara of Samkhya, the term is to be met also in Buddhist scriptures. Sometimes it is interpreted as manas (mind, the seventh vinnana) producing the conceit (mana) that I am (asmiti mana, or just asmimana) - hence the I-factor (aham-kara, I-doer, Ego- maker). Manas as Ahankara is actually the producer of the pervert feeling of personal identity. Kindest regards, Plamen #64116 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 6:51 am Subject: ADL, 87, object of cuti-citta. nilovg Dear Han and Rob, H:My understanding is the three cittas that take the same object are: cuti citta of past life, patisandhi citta of present life, and bhavanga citta of present life. and NOT patisandhi citta of present life, bhavanga citta of present life, and cuti citta of present life. ------- N: We can also call the cuti citta the last bhavangacitta of a lifespan. In one life the patisandhi citta, the bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta experience the same object. They are the same types of citta with the same cetasikas accompanying them. The last javanacittas of a lifespan are conditioned by the kamma that will produce the patisandhi citta of the next life and also the object they experience is conditioned by that kamma, be it kusala kamma or akusala kamma. The patisandhi citta of the next life has the same object as experienced by those javanacittas. These javanacittas may or may not be followed by tadaarama.nacittas and then by the cuti- citta of that lifespan which has the same object as all bhavangacittas of that lifespan that is going to end. The function of the cuticitta is being the last citta of a lifespan. The cuticitta conditions the following citta, which is the patisandhi citta of the next life by way of proximity-condition. This does not mean that they have to have the same object. Lodewijk found this question also difficult and we had a long discussion. Is there anything not clear yet, please tell me. Nina. #64117 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL, 87, object of cuti-citta. hantun1 Dear Nina, I am sorry I do not clearly understand what you mean to say. Your last two sentences: “The cuticitta conditions the following citta, which is the patisandhi citta of the next life by way of proximity-condition .This does not mean that they have to have the same object.” Do you mean to say that the cuti citta of the present life and the patisandhi citta of the next life may not have the same object? Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and Rob, > > The cuticitta conditions the following citta, which > is the patisandhi > citta of the next life by way of > proximity-condition. This does not > mean that they have to have the same object. > Lodewijk found this question also difficult and we > had a long > discussion. > Is there anything not clear yet, please tell me. > Nina. > #64118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 7:33 am Subject: re: bhavanga nilovg Dear Matheesha, ---------- M: I was under the impression that the above quote was about citta 'in general'. ------ N: Through the Co. we know that it is about bhavangacitta. It is vipaakacitta (see my abh in D.L.) , the same type as the rebirth- consciousness. It has no lobha, dosa, moha, no defilements, but the latentent tendencies are dormant in it. --------- M: I thought bhavanga citta was some mysterious dark river like 'thing' which was active while we were asleep -ie it could not be experienced on it's own. The stuff 'in between' arising and passing away. ------- N: When we are fast asleep and not dreaming, there must still be cittas succeeding one another, otherwise the stream of the cittas of our life would be broken off . Cittas go on so long as we are in samsara. Kamma and good and bad tendencies are accumulated and passed on from one citta to the next one. This is possible because our life is an uninterrupted stream of cittas. When asleep and not dreaming there are cittas and they experience an object, there is no citta without an object. At such moments there are not objects impinging on the six doorways. The object experienced by the bhavangacitta is the same as the object experienced by the patisandhicitta. It does not impinge on a doorway. We cannot know what its object is. Bhavangacitta does not arise only during deep sleep but also in between processes of cittas.Seeing arises in a process, and hearing arises in another process. Different processes are demarcated by bhavangacittas. The characteristic of bhavangacitta can be known by insight. ----------- M: I read something about sounds impinging on it and then that experience coming into our consciousness... or is that a wrong concept? ------- N: When in deep sleep or just now in between processes, sound may impinge on the eardoor, but it is not experienced immediately. There are a few more bhavangacittas before the ear-door adverting- consciousness adverts to sound and is succeeded by hearing. There is a bhavanga-citta that is disturbed by the sound, but it does not hear it. It is followed by the arrest-bhavanga which is the last bhavangacitta of the stream of bhavangacittas. Then there is the opportunity for the ear-door adverting-consciousness that adverts to that sound and a process of cittas, the ear-door process can begin. Nina.. #64119 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 10/8/06 6:37:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Matheesha, > > ---------- > >K: When they have finally caught on about the significance of the > present > >moment (when they realise the Buddha could not possibly have taught > >about anything else) they might say, "That is really profound! Tell us > >more! What are the realities that are arising now?" > > M: Actually if they have understood the importance of the present > moment, the first question would be 'how can i see it for myself now, > or why cannot i see it for myself now' not 'what realities are arising > now' which is yet another joy ride into conceptualisation and theory - > away from the very present moment you are trying to see. > > Thanks for all the warnings/advice. > ------------------ > > If I understand you correctly, you are saying the right question (or > request) would be, "Show me how to know the dhammas that are arising > now." > > Strictly speaking, of course, it is too late for that. The dhammas > that are arising now are also falling away now (in the same > mind-moment). It is too late to embark on a mission to see them. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I understood Matheesha to be saying that the appropriate and useful question is how to cultivate the mind so that in the future sati arises frequently and there is frequent if not typical awareness of exactly what is happening in the moment. To interpret it in a close-the-barndoor-after-the-horse-has-escaped manner strikes me as silly. Developing a habit of introspection or ongoing attentiveness to the flow of experence does in fact go a long way towards accomplishing this. ----------------------------------------------- > > My suggestion - "What are the dhammas that are arising now?" - was not > meant as a technique or strategy for knowing dhammas. I was simply > saying that a person who finds himself asking that question has > already understood the Dhamma to some extent. He is curious to know > more about conditionality and the four noble truths. He is on the > right track. ---------------------------------------- Howard: S/he has looked at the book's front cover but has not so much as glanced even at the fly leaf. (The "book" is metaphorical here, of course.) ---------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ==================== With metta, Howard #64120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL, 87, object of cuti-citta. nilovg Dear Han, Yes, I mean to say this. Suppose you are in the human plane and your next birth is in a hellplane, everything changes, also the object. The cuticitta of the life in the human plane that is the last one in that plane still has a pleasant object, the same as all bhavangacittas of that human life. If I have time I look up some texts. Nina. Op 8-okt-2006, om 16:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Do you mean to say that the cuti citta of the present > life and the patisandhi citta of the next life may not > have the same object? #64121 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 4:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL, 87, object of cuti-citta. upasaka_howard Hi, Han (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/8/06 10:24:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hantun1@... writes: > Dear Nina, > > I am sorry I do not clearly understand what you mean > to say. > > Your last two sentences: “The cuticitta conditions the > following citta, which is the patisandhi citta of the > next life by way of proximity-condition .This does not > mean that they have to have the same object.â€? > > Do you mean to say that the cuti citta of the present > life and the patisandhi citta of the next life may not > have the same object? > > Respectfully, > Han > ======================== I would also like to raise another point, albeit a technical one: It is said that the initial state of consciousness (patisandhi citta) of a given life and the subsequent bhavangacittas of that life have "the same" object. What I would ask is what is meant by "the same". I presume the objects of the huge multitude of bhavangacittas dring a lifetime are (distinct) copies or faithful memories of the original rather than the same object, nama or rupa, existing continuously throughout an entire lifetime! That is, I assume that "the same" really means "corresponding". With metta, Howard #64122 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL, 87, object of cuti-citta. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify the matter. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Yes, I mean to say this. #64123 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL, 87, object of cuti-citta. hantun1 Dear Howard (and Nina) Howard: I would also like to raise another point, albeit a technical one: It is said that the initial state of consciousness (patisandhi citta) of a given life and the subsequent bhavangacittas of that life have "the same" object. What I would ask is what is meant by "the same". I presume the objects of the huge multitude of bhavangacittas dring a lifetime are (distinct) copies or faithful memories of the original rather than the same object, nama or rupa, existing continuously throughout an entire lifetime! That is, I assume that "the same" really means "corresponding" . Han: Your reasoning is plausible, Howard. But I do not know. That’s why I was asking. Respectfully, Han --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Han (and Nina) - > I would also like to raise another point, > albeit a technical one: #64124 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: bhavanga upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 10/8/06 10:35:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Matheesha, > ---------- > M: I was under the impression that the above quote was about > citta 'in general'. > ------ > N: Through the Co. we know that it is about bhavangacitta. It is > vipaakacitta (see my abh in D.L.) , the same type as the rebirth- > consciousness. It has no lobha, dosa, moha, no defilements, but the > latentent tendencies are dormant in it. > --------- > > M: I thought bhavanga citta was some mysterious > dark river like 'thing' which was active while we were asleep -ie it > could not be experienced on it's own. The stuff 'in between' arising > and passing away. > ------- > N: When we are fast asleep and not dreaming, there must still be > cittas succeeding one another, otherwise the stream of the cittas of > our life would be broken off . > ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is another - at least one other - way of looking at the matter. Time, for an individual mindstream, is nothing more than the awareness of experiential flux. (Thus the "flow of time" in "dreamtime" seems different from that of "wake time".) Should the stream of cittas be cut off entirely (relative to others) during deep, dreamless sleep, time ceases entirely for that mindstream, and the first subsequent moment of consciousness after the "cessation" would be the very next moment of consciousness for that mindstream, and the most that would be noticed would be a kind of momentary off-on spike in conciousness. Of course, such a perspective is entirely a phenomenalist one. Now, the point I think you are making here, Nina, and I think it is a good one, is that survival of the body depends on mentality being present to keep the various sustaining constructive and destructive processes of metabolism going - to maintain breathing, digestion, heart function, elimination etc. But to the extent that these require mental operations, they would require a *variety* of complex operations that would surely go far beyond a mere repetition of the simple, unvarying bhavangacittas. --------------------------------------------------- Cittas go on so long as we are in > > samsara. Kamma and good and bad tendencies are accumulated and passed > on from one citta to the next one. This is possible because our life > is an uninterrupted stream of cittas. > When asleep and not dreaming there are cittas and they experience an > object, there is no citta without an object. At such moments there > are not objects impinging on the six doorways. The object experienced > by the bhavangacitta is the same as the object experienced by the > patisandhicitta. It does not impinge on a doorway. ---------------------------------- Howard: I read the words "not impinge on a doorway," but without much further explanation this holds n menaing for me. --------------------------------- > We cannot know what its object is. > Bhavangacitta does not arise only during deep sleep but also in > between processes of cittas.Seeing arises in a process, and hearing > arises in another process. Different processes are demarcated by > bhavangacittas. > The characteristic of bhavangacitta can be known by insight. ------------------------------------------ Howard: How do you know that? ------------------------------------------ > ----------- > M: I read something about sounds impinging on it and > then that experience coming into our consciousness... or is that a > wrong concept? > ------- > N: When in deep sleep or just now in between processes, sound may > impinge on the eardoor, but it is not experienced immediately. There > are a few more bhavangacittas before the ear-door adverting- > consciousness adverts to sound and is succeeded by hearing. There is > a bhavanga-citta that is disturbed by the sound, but it does not hear > it. It is followed by the arrest-bhavanga which is the last > bhavangacitta of the stream of bhavangacittas. Then there is the > opportunity for the ear-door adverting-consciousness that adverts to > that sound and a process of cittas, the ear-door process can begin. > Nina.. > > ======================== With metta, Howard #64125 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 9:37 am Subject: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn Hallo all In the retreat last week with Stephen and Martine Batchelorwas a good mix of meditation (samatha and vipassana) and dhamma-talks. I can say 'dhamma' because Stephen based a big part of his talks on Suttas, so on the Pali Canon, but (of course) not without controversial statements. People interesetd in them can read his blogs on www.tricycle.com/blog/stephen_batchelor It reminded me of some of the texts of Buddhadasa Bhikku, the Thai monk born hundred years ago, and also (in conservative Thai circles) controversial. Two examples of this From 'Kamma in buddhism' (www.suanmokkh.org/archive/arts/message/kamma1.htm) "Kamma and Rebirth: Rebirth occurs every time one does a deed, and that rebirth occurs spontaneously at the moment of action. We need not wait for rebirth to come after death, as is generally understand in the worldly sense. When one thinks and acts, the mind is spontaneously changed through the power of desire and clinging, which lead immediately to becoming and birth in accordance with the law of Dependent Co-origination (paticca-samuppada). There is no need to wait for physical death in order for rebirth to occur. This truth should be realized as the true teaching of Buddhism, as a core principle of the original, pristine Buddhism that states there is no self (atta) to be reborn. How the concept of rebirth after death crept into Buddhism is difficult to explain, and we need not concern ourselves with it. Simply preventing rebirth within the stream of Dependent Co-origination is enough for us to be free. Stopping egoistic rebirth is truly in accordance with Buddhism, and such action will be the kind of kamma that can be taken as refuge. When a good deed is done, goodness spontaneously arises; when an evil deed is done, evilness spontaneously arises. There is no need to wait for any further results. If there will be any birth after death, that rebirth only occurs through the kamma one has done in this very life and the results of which have already occurred here. We need not worry about rebirth such that it obstructs our practice." The other from 'Practical Dependent Origination' (www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/index.html) This is too long to quote but Buddhadasa stresses that D.O. is not about three lifetimes (the Buddhaghosa-theory) but about what happens again and again in this life (as stated in the Suttas) Buddhadasa : an inspiring buddhist Metta Joop #64126 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 9:51 am Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu scottduncan2 Dear Joop, I've read this before somewhere: "...There is no need to wait for any further results. If there will be any birth after death, that rebirth only occurs through the kamma one has done in this very life and the results of which have already occurred here. We need not worry about rebirth such that it obstructs our practice." I think it is incorrect to suggest that rebecoming "only occurs through the kamma one has done in this very life..." and find this a rather deceptive view. I think it misses an infinite number of becomings and is quite too narrow a view. Is that how you see it too? With loving kindness, Scott. #64127 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? lbidd2 Hi Nina and all, Taking the idea that fear is dosa I find that the proximate cause of dosa is the 9 causes of malice which are: 1-3. He (or it?) has done, is doing, or will do me an injury. 4-6. He has done, is doing or will do an injury to someone who is dear to me. 7-9. He has done, is doing, or will do a favour to someone who is hateful to me. L: Here I guess we substitute 'fear' and 'fearful' for 'malice' and 'hateful'. The 9 ways of overcoming fear would be the same thoughts plus "what good would it do to be afraid", e.g., "He will do me an injury, what good does fear do" (substitute 'hate' for 'fear' to get the remedy for hate). The deeper remedy would be to see the error of the conceit 'I am'. Larry see DN33, Sangiiti Sutta, and CMA p.84 #64128 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 69 nilovg Dear friends, Fear arises so long as there are still conditions for its arising. It cannot be eradicated at once, only the anagami (non-returner, the person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) has eradicated it completely. The development of right understanding is the only way leading to the eradication of fear. When fear arises it should be seen as it is: only a conditioned reality, not self. Fear is conditioned by ignorance and by clinging. We cling to all the pleasant objects and we have fear to lose them. We read in the 'Gradual Saying' (Book of the Sixes, Ch III, par.3, Fear) about different names given to sense-desires, in order to show their dangers. One of these names is fear. We read: ...And wherefore, monks, is fear a name for sense-desires? Monks, impassioned by sensuous passions, bound by passionate desire, neither in this world is one free from fear, not in the next world is one free from fear. Therefore 'fear' is a name for sense-desires.... In order to develop right understanding there should be awareness of any reality which appears and we should not reject anything as object of awareness. When fear appears it can be object of awareness. ***** Nina. #64129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 11:35 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 88 nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 114) states with regard to the bhavanga-citta: When the paìisandhi-citta has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-consciousness it may be, the same kinds, being the result of the same kamma whatever it may be, occur as bhavanga-citta with that same object; and again those same kinds. And as long as there is no other kind of arising of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a river. The bhavanga-cittas are like the current of a river and this current is interrupted when there is an object presenting itself through one of the senses or through the mind-door. When the cittas of the sense- door process or the mind-door process have fallen away, the current of bhavanga-cittas is resumed. When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga- cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-impression. However, there cannot be a sense-impression immediately. When sound, for example, impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca- dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan, and they experience their own object which is the same as the object of the paìisandhi-citta. Although the bhavanga-citta does not experience the sound which contacts the earsense, it can be affected, ``disturbed'' by it and then the stream of bhavanga-cittas will be interrupted and sound will be experienced by cittas which arise in the ear-door process. One may wonder how the bhavanga-citta which experiences its own object can still be ``affected'' by an object which impinges on one of the doorways. Each citta can experience only one object at a time but the bhavanga-citta can still be affected by an object which impinges on one of the doorways. A commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the Paramattha-Mañjúsa, (478; see Visuddhimagga XIV, 115, footnote 46) explains this by way of a simile: ... But how does there come to be disturbance (movement) of the bhavanga that has a different support? Because it is connected with it. And here the example is this: when grains of sugar are put on the surface of a drum and one of the grains of sugar is tapped, a fly sitting on another grain of sugar moves. ***** Nina. #64130 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nilovg Hallo Joop, NIce to see you again! I have a quote from B.B. in the same line as what you state below. B.B.:To prevent misunderstanding it has to be stressed that the distribution of the twelve factors into three lives is an expository device employed for the purpose of exhibiting the inner dynamics of the round. It should not be read as implying hard and fast divisions, for in lived experience the factors are always intertwined. The past causes include craving, clinging, and existence, the present ones ignorance and volitional formations; the present resultants begin with birth and end in death, and future birth and death will be incurred by the same resultants. Moreover, the present resultant and causal phases should not be seen as temporally segregated from each other, as if assigned to different periods of life. Rather, through the entire course of life, they succeed one another with incredible rapidity in an alternating sequence of result and action; the action is followed by more results; and these are again followed by still more action. So it has gone on through time without beginning, and so it continues. **** Nina. Op 8-okt-2006, om 18:37 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > The other from 'Practical Dependent Origination' > (www.geocities.com/dependentorigination/index.html) > This is too long to quote but Buddhadasa stresses that D.O. is not > about three lifetimes (the Buddhaghosa-theory) but about what happens > again and again in this life (as stated in the Suttas) #64131 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 12:01 pm Subject: Q and Answer Cetasikas Study 543. nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much, I appreciate your work. --------- Question (ii) At which moment do all three abstinences arise together? Which function do they have in that case? H:Answer: When lokuttara cittas arise, all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara cittas and arise together taking nibbana as the object. They then function as the right speech, right action and right livelihood of the supramundane eightfold Path. ------------------------------- N:just adding: At the moment of magga-citta they cut off the base of wrong speech, action and livelihood in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. --------- Question (iii) Can the abstinences accompany maha-vipakacittas of the sense-sphere? Answer: No, they cannot accompany maha-vipakacittas of the sense-sphere, because vipaka cittas, being resultant cittas, are kammically neutral that produce no kammic results, whereas the abstinences, by abstaining from wrong action, wrong speech and wrong livelihood, can produce kammic results. ---------------------------- N: adding: They only arise at the actual moments of abstaining, and that is during the kusala javana cittas. -------- Question (v) When is wrong livelihood eradicated? Answer: When abstinence from wrong livelihood, ajiva-duccarita virati, becomes the right livelihood, samma-ajiva, of the supramundane eightfold Path. ------------------------------ N: It is eradicated by the magga-citta of the sotaapanna. -------- Question (vi) What is idle talk? Answer: The idle talk is a speech that is not motivated by kusala citta that is generous and intent on helping others or on explaining the Dhamma to others, but instead, it is a speech that is useless, silly, not producing anything good, and idle gossip talking about other people’s actions and private lives, or useless talks just to keep the conversation going. -------- N: Han, I like this explanation very much. --------- Question (viii) Why is fewness of wishes one of the proximate causes of abstinence from wrong conduct? Answer: Fewness of wishes, contentment, being satisfied with little (appicchataa) is the opposite of greed (lobha). Lobha is one of the three very powerful akusala muula cetasikas which can condition wrong conduct by hetu-paccaya. Therefore, if there is less lobha or more appicchataa it is more likely that a person will abstain from wrong conduct. A Burmese Sayadaw once said that “the one whose wishes are most fulfilled is the one who has fewest wishes.” Thus, the appicchataa, like saddhaa, hiri, and ottappa, is one of the proximate causes of abstinence from wrong conduct. --------- N: I appreciate this explanation with the saying of the Sayadaw very much, Han. Thank you. Nina. #64132 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu scottduncan2 Hi Nina and Joop, To add to the below: B.B.:"...It should not be read as implying hard and fast divisions, for in lived experience the factors are always intertwined." Visuddhimagga, XVII, 15-16: "If any notion arises in the guise of a literal interpretation of the term 'dependent origination'(pa.ticca samuppaada) to the effect that it is only arising that is stated, it should be got rid of by apprehending the meaning of this expression in the following way. "For: In double form the term relates to a totality of states Produced from a conditionality; Hence the conditions for that sum Through metaphor's device have come To bear their fruits' name figuratively In the Blessed One's exposition. "This term,'dependent origination', when applied to the total of states produced from the [total] conditionality, must be taken in two ways. For that [total] ought to be arrived at (pa.ticco - adj.), since when it is arrived at (pa.tiyamaano), it leads to [supramundane] welfare and bliss and so the wise regard it worthy to be arrived at (paccetu.m); and then, when it arises (uppajjamaano), it does so 'together with' (saha) the 'rightly' (sammaa), not singly or causelessly, thus it is a co-arising (sammuppaado). Consequently it is to be arrived at (pa.ticco) and it is a co-arising (samuppaado), thus it is dependent origination (pa.ticca samuppaada)...And the total of causes is a condition for that [total of states produced from the conditionality], so, because it is a condition for that, this [total of causes] is called, 'dependent origination', using for it the term ordinarily used for its fruit..." Does this seem a propos? With loving kindness, Scott. #64133 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Att.Sarah. HK gazita2002 hello Sarah, thank u so much for making the effort to locate me. didnt realise there would be so many hotels of the same name. I dont have much time here, about to catch yet another plane!!! but when I get a chance will add some more re our pleasant discussion time in HK. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > Just got in. After calling round ALL the Novotel hotels here, tracked you > down (no answer). I'm coming out to refresh you with toothpaste and dh > chat. Setting off now - will take me about an hour to get there (12.20 > now). Jon's mobile-92725492 > S. > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > hello Sarah, > > > > I am in HK courtesy of Cathay Pacific - flight delay - here til 5pm. > > Don;t have your ph.no. maybe u could call Novotel and leave message at > > RM 705. I am thinking dhamma chat :-) > > > > patience, courage and good cheer, - much needed when tired and > > connecting flights have been missed, no toothpaste, missed > > appointments, and to think its all just concepts!!!!!! > > Azita #64134 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:45 pm Subject: Re: bhavanga pgradinarov Dear Nina, > When asleep and not dreaming there are cittas and they experience an > object, there is no citta without an object... > Bhavangacitta does not arise only during deep sleep but also in > between processes of cittas. If there is no bhavanga-citta in susupti and swoon, what is it for a citta that exists then? The experience is not external, because the external senses are not functionning during both types of sleep; neither is it internal because manas (the internal sense-organ) is active only during the sleep with dreams, and not functional in susupti (dreamless sleep) and swoon. On the other hand, bhavanga-citta is functional (pavattati) only when the sevenfold vinnana gets dysfunctional (nivattati), and this is in dreamless sleep, swoon, and death. Kindest regards, Plamen #64135 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 3:51 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,105 Vism.XVII,106 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [No Single Fruit from Single Cause] 105. Here it may be asked: But how is this? Is ignorance the only condition for formations, or are there other conditions? What is the position here? For firstly, if it is the only one, there follows the assertion of a single cause;17 but then if there are others, the description of it as a single cause, namely, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations', is incorrect.--It is not incorrect. Why not? Here is the reason: Nor from a single cause arise One fruit or many, nor one fruit from many; 'Tis helpful, though, to utilize One cause and fruit as representative. ------------------------ Note 17. 'The assertion of a single cause (kaara.na) is undesirable because it follows that there would be production of everything all the time, and because it follows that there would be a single homogeneous state' (Pm.599) cf. Ch. XIX,3. 106. Here there is no single or multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. So from multiple causes, in other words, from temperature, earth, seed, and moisture, is seen to arise a multiple fruit, in other words, the shoot, which has visible form, odour, taste, and so on. But one representative cause and fruit given in this way, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations; with formations as condition, consciousness', have a meaning and a use. ********************************* 105. etthaaha, ki.m panaayamekaava avijjaa sa"nkhaaraana.m paccayo, udaahu a~n~nepi paccayaa santiiti. ki.m panettha, yadi taava ekaava, ekakaara.navaado aapajjati. atha~n~nepi santi, ``avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa´´ti ekakaara.naniddeso nupapajjatiiti, na nupapajjati. kasmaa? yasmaa, eka.m na ekato idha, naanekamanekatopi no eka.m. phalamatthi atthi pana eka-hetuphaladiipane attho.. 106. ekato hi kaara.nato na idha ki~nci eka.m phalamatthi, na aneka.m. naapi anekehi kaara.nehi eka.m. anekehi pana kaara.nehi anekameva hoti. tathaa hi anekehi utupathaviibiijasalilasa"nkhaatehi kaara.nehi anekameva ruupagandharasaadika.m a"nkurasa"nkhaata.m phala.m uppajjamaana.m dissati. ya.m paneta.m ``avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa, sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na´´nti ekekahetuphaladiipana.m kata.m, tattha attho atthi, payojana.m vijjati. #64136 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q and Answer Cetasikas Study 543. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your appreciation, and for your very useful additions. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > thank you very much, I appreciate your work. #64137 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Howard, -------------- KH: > If I understand you correctly, you are saying the right question (or > request) would be, "Show me how to know the dhammas that are arising > now." > > Strictly speaking, of course, it is too late for that. The dhammas > that are arising now are also falling away now (in the same > mind-moment). It is too late to embark on a mission to see them. Howard: > I understood Matheesha to be saying that the appropriate and useful question is how to cultivate the mind so that in the future sati arises frequently and there is frequent if not typical awareness of exactly what is happening in the moment. --------------- Yes, that is more or less the way I understood him too. I think Matheesha sees the Dhamma as a set of instructions - a list of things to do. From my perspective, it cannot possibly be that way. ------------------------------- H: > To interpret it in a close-the-barndoor-after-the-horse-has-escaped manner strikes me as silly. -------------------------------- I was not suggesting that Matheesha, or anyone, would be so simple minded as to close the door after the horse had bolted. The point I wanted to make was that the horse has, in fact, bolted. -------------------------------------------- H: > Developing a habit of introspection or ongoing attentiveness to the flow of experence does in fact go a long way towards accomplishing this. --------------------------------------------- Are you talking about some future action we might take? In other words, are you saying the horse has not bolted? ----------------------------- KH: > > > My suggestion - "What are the dhammas that are arising now?" - was not > meant as a technique or strategy for knowing dhammas. I was simply > saying that a person who finds himself asking that question has > already understood the Dhamma to some extent. He is curious to know > more about conditionality and the four noble truths. He is on the > right track. Howard: > S/he has looked at the book's front cover but has not so much as glanced even at the fly leaf. (The "book" is metaphorical here, of course.) --------------------------------- That is not true in every case. With the exception of arahants, every Buddhist disciple is either a puthujjana learner or an ariyan learner. They are all interested in learning more about dhammas. Ken H #64138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:07 am Subject: Object of cuti-citta nilovg Dear Han, As promised, here is a text. Dispeller of Delusion (sammohavinodani), Ch Vi, Classification of the Structure of Conditions, about rebirth- linking which can have a present, past or not so classifiable (navatthabba) object. But, the cuticitta always has a past object. ***** Nina. #64139 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > ... >> The development of samatha spoken of in the Vism requires, I >> believe, that the kammatthana (object of samatha >> consciousness) be contemplated in a kusala way, that is to >> say, with some level of understanding (panna). >> > > James: Well, I have the Vism. right here in front of me, I have been > reading it, and I don't see it stating anything of the sort. > Exactly where does it state this? I didn't say I was quoting from the Vism itself (I said that was my understanding of the matter). As I think I have mentioned before, I don't know of any 'definition' of samatha as such in the Tipitaka itself. There are some descriptions of its development in relation to certain subjects, which seem to meet the description of 'contemplation in a kusala way' of the subject. If the kasina is not contemplated in a kusala manner, where is the kusala in the 'practice'? > This is what it states: > > "But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken > his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already > stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may > have. He should then approach the Good friend, the giver of a > meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty > meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that > he should avoid a monastery unfavorable to the development of > concentration and go to live in one that is favourable. Then he > should sever the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the > directions for development." > > In the remainder of the text, nowhere does it mention anything about > contemplating the kasina object in a kusala manner. > But I think that 'contemplating the object in a kusala manner' is what is described, taking the whole of Part II of Vism (chapters III to XIII) generally. It's useful to keep in mind the 40 'kammatthana'. Here's a list: *10 kasina-exercises *10 loathsome subjects (asubha) *10 recollections (anussati): o of the Buddha (buddhÄ?nussati), o the Doctrine (dhammÄ?nussati), o the Brotherhood of the Noble Ones (sanghÄ?nussati), o morality (silÄ?nussati),, o liberality (caagÄ?nussati),, o the heavenly beings (devanussati),, o death (maranasati), o the body (kÄ?yagatÄ?sati), o in-and-out breathing (Ä?nÄ?pÄ?na-sati) o peace (upasamÄ?nussati). * 4 sublime abodes (brahma-vihÄ?ra): o loving-kindness (mettÄ?) o compassion (karunÄ?) o altruistic joy (muditÄ?) o equanimity (upekkhÄ?). * 4 immaterial spheres (arÅ«pÄ?yatana): o of unbounded space (aakaasÄ?nancayatana), o unbounded consciousness (vinnanancayatana), o nothingness (akincannÄ?yatana), o neither-perception-nor-non-perception (nevasannaanaasannÄ?yatana). *1 perception of the loathsomeness of food (Ä?hÄ?re patikkÅ«la-saññÄ?) *1 analysis of the 4 elements (catudhÄ?tu-vavatthÄ?na) I mention these because, as kammatthana, they have in common that their contemplation in a kusala manner can support the development of kusala concentration to very high degrees (up to or approaching jhana). > Again, Jon, > this appears to be a non-issue and I am getting tired of discussing > it. Unless you can give some proof of your position, I am not going > to take it seriously (and no one else should either). > Sorry to be tiresome (I'll add it to the list). The foregoing is not offered as 'proof' but just as my best understanding of the matter (after all, this is not a jury trial ;-)). Jon #64140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nilovg Dear Scott, This is in accordance with the texts Larry posted today: 105, 106. There are multiple causes and multiple fruits, also when one caus and one fruit is mentioned. I am studying this right now! Nina. Op 8-okt-2006, om 22:05 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > And the total > of causes is a condition for that [total of states produced from the > conditionality], so, because it is a condition for that, this [total > of causes] is called, 'dependent origination', using for it the term > ordinarily used for its fruit..." #64141 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Newbie to the group sarahprocter... Dear Kavee, --- Kaveenga wrote: > > Dear Venerable Ones and Friends, > > About a month ago I joined the DhammaStudyGroup and silently listened > to the Dhamma discussions. I thought it would be nice to announce myself > and express my gratitude to the members who contribute their wisdom and > time, and to those members who ask questions which cause to make the > deep dhamma be expounded in more detail. .... S: Like Nina, I'd also like to welcome you here and to thank you for showing your appreciation and introducing yourself so nicely. .... > > My name is Kaveenga (mka Kavee) and I am originally from Sri Lanka. > Hence grew up and learned in the Theravada tradition. About 6 years ago > I moved to Sydney, Australia, and developed an appreciation for the > other buddhist traditions. My knowledge is dhamma is mostly limited to > the theravada suttas, and I have been trying to practice the dhamma to > the best of my abilities over the last 8-9 years. I am keen on > developing my understanding of the dhamma even further and practice the > dhamma to the limits which are possible by a lay buddhist. .... S: Very interesting. As you'll know, there are other active members here from Sri Lanka originally (like Matheesha) and living in Australia. ... > Enough said :-) Shall go back to listening. > > Namo to the kalayanamittayo in this group .... S: As Nina said, do participate too:-). Join in any threads anytime and also start your own if you feel inclined to do so. Thanks again, Kavee! Metta, Sarah ======= #64142 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hallo Nina and Scott If A conditions B and B conditions C, then A conditions (in a indirect way) C. If it's that what Buddhaghosa says, then I agree with that. But still one has to take care that this does not ends in a non-dual, or said more popular, in a holistic idea in which paticca samuppada (or the sankrit term) is translated as 'interdependent co-arising': everything conditions everything, as is done in some Mahayanic schools. Some other remarks Nina, in your quote BB speaks of "the round". Some months ago I have put sereval messages about DO on DSG in which I made clear that the Buddha nowhere in a Sutta made a "round", a cycle of D.O.: he described a series. Centuries later commentaries made a cycle of it, the cycle of samsara. 'The Wheel of Birth and Death' by Bhikkhu Khantipalo The Wheel Publication No. 147/148/149 "… The History of the Wheel. Dependent Arising is explained many times and in many different connections in the Discourses of Lord Buddha, but He has not compared it to a wheel. This simile is found in the Visuddhimagga ("The Path of Purification") and in the other commentarial literature. …" And nowhere in the Suttas there is said: "With the arising of aging and death there is the arising of ignorance"! Scott, in your message 64126 you wrote: " I think it is incorrect to suggest that rebecoming "only occurs through the kamma one has done in this very life..." and find this a rather deceptive view. I think it misses an infinite number of becomings and is quite too narrow a view." Rebirth or 'rebecoming' as you name it is not a part of my system, I do not believe in it and I don't have the need to believe in it. Starting from that point I try to understand what Buddhadasa Bhikkhu has said in his talks about kamma and that is not so easy. (About rebirth he said: " Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn. So, the whole question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all.") And Nina, you must know a lot of Buddhism in Thailand, what do you think of the role of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu as a spiritual reformer, born now hundred years ago, in it? I'm reading a dissertation about it from Suchira Payulpitack (http://bieson.ub.uni- bielefeld.de/volltexte/2003/124/pdf/2_chapter4.pdf) Metta Joop #64143 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nilovg Hallo Joop, Yes I remember that we spoke about a cycle. I think it is appropriate, because after dying there is rebirth and we start all over!! Again and again. As to Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, I do not know much about him. What I saw didi not appeal much to me, but that is personal. Perhaps it sounds pedantic, but I prefer the ancient texts. I cannot help it that this is my preference. Nina. Op 9-okt-2006, om 10:31 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > And Nina, you must know a lot of Buddhism in Thailand, what do you > think of the role of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu as a spiritual reformer, born > now hundred years ago, in it? #64144 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Object of cuti-citta hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your patience with me, and your effort to make me understand. But please allow me to start all over again. > > > Han: I am sorry I do not clearly understand what you mean to say. Your last two sentences: “The cuticitta conditions the following citta, which is the patisandhi citta of the next life by way of proximity-condition .This does not mean that they have to have the same object.” Do you mean to say that the cuti citta of the present life and the patisandhi citta of the next life may not have the same object? ---------------------------- > > Nina: Yes, I mean to say this. Suppose you are in the human plane and your next birth is in a hellplane, everything changes, also the object. The cuticitta of the life in the human plane that is the last one in that plane still has a pleasant object, the same as all bhavangacittas of that human life. If I have time I look up some texts. ---------------------------- > Nina: As promised, here is a text. Dispeller of Delusion (sammohavinodani) , Ch Vi, Classification of the Structure of Conditions, about rebirth-linking which can have a present, past or not so classifiable (navatthabba) object. But, the cuticitta always has a past object. ---------------------------- Han: Please excuse my ignorance, but I do not see the Dispeller of Delusion mentioning that the patisandhi citta takes a different object from that has been taken by the cuti citta of past life. Or, is it my failure to see the obvious? Respectfully, Han #64145 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:11 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 544- Compassion /karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Chapter 33 Compassion (karuùå) and Sympathetic Joy (muditå) Compassion, karuùå, and sympathetic joy, muditå, are among the six sobhana cetasikas which do not arise with every sobhana citta. They accompany kusala citta only when there is an opportunity for them. They are classified among the four “divine abidings”, brahma-vihåras(1). The other two divine abidings are, as we have seen, loving-kindness, mettå, and equanimity, upekkhå(2). The divine abidings are called “illimitables” (appamaññas), because when they have been developed in samatha as meditation subjects which condition calm and when, by means of them, jhåna has been attained, they can be directed towards innumerable beings. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi, §258-261. 2) The term upekkhå does not, in this case, stand for indifferent feeling, but it stands for equanimity. ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:12 am Subject: ADL 87, object of bhavanga nilovg Hi Howard and Plamen, I appreciate your interest. ----------- H: It is said that the initial state of consciousness (patisandhi citta) of a given life and the subsequent bhavangacittas of that life have "the same" object. What I would ask is what is meant by "the same". I presume the objects of the huge multitude of bhavangacittas dring a lifetime are (distinct) copies or faithful memories of the original rather than the same object, nama or rupa, existing continuously throughout an entire lifetime! That is, I assume that "the same" really means "corresponding". ------- N: This was discussed some time ago, and the word photo copy was used. The word corresponding is not so precise, I think. It is allowable to use the word same for: same type of object, same type of citta. My eye fell on this text: Topics of Abh, Co to Abhidhammattha Sangaha, (T.A. Ch 5 , The Process free, p. 212): --------- H: Are all bhavangacittas said to be identical in terms of object only? Or also in terms of kinds and degrees of cetasikas? If they are to be identical in *all* respects, how can there be insight in place in some but not in others. Insight is a cetasika. ------- N: They also have the same types of cetasikas. Thus, they may be without roots, or with two or three sobhana roots. There may be wisdom accompanying them or not. There is not insight with them, they are vipaakacittas, but they are a reflection of the kamma that produced them. I do not quite get your Q. ---------- H: survival of the body depends on mentality being present to keep the various sustaining constructive and destructive processes of metabolism going - to maintain breathing, digestion, heart function, elimination etc. But to the extent that these require mental operations, they would require a *variety* of complex operations that would surely go far beyond a mere repetition of the simple, unvarying bhavangacittas. -------- N: Bhavangacitta is a type of citta that originates rupas. Kamma, citta, heat and nutrition are the four factors originating rupas of the body. During the bhavangacittas also kamma, heat and nutrition operate. You can go without taking food for seven days and nutritive essence in the body still maintains the other rupas. ------ Plamen: On the other hand, bhavanga-citta is functional (pavattati) only when the sevenfold vinnana gets dysfunctional (nivattati), and this is in dreamless sleep, swoon, and death. ------- N: Yes, we can include swoon. When in great pain you may lose consciousness as we say. There are then bhavangacittas and then the pain is not felt. No bodyconsciousness that experiences rupas that cause pain. This reminds me of something else. When we have pain, there are also moments of the eye-door process or ear-door process and at such moments there cannot be pain at the same time. Each citta can experience only one object. It is good to remember this in daily life, it prevents us from holding on to objects. The same goes for sadness. There is not sadness continuously, it is interrupted by seeing, and other cittas, or by hearing and other cittas. This can help us to face difficult moments in daily life. But we tend to forget that there are different cittas taking different objects all the time. It is so beneficial to learn about different cittas experiencing different objects in the various processes. ______ H: I read the words "not impinge on a doorway," but without much further explanation this holds no meaning for me. --------- N: Take the above example about swoon. During the moments of bhavangacittas we are not assailed by all the objects that are experienced through the senses and the mind-door, and no thinking about them, no dwelling on them. --------- H, quotes: Seeing arises in a process, and hearing > arises in another process. Different processes are demarcated by > bhavangacittas. > The characteristic of bhavangacitta can be known by insight. ------------------------------------------ Howard: How do you know that? ------------------------------------------ N: The Buddha did not teach realities merely for the sake of knowing them theoretically. Whatever is truth can be known, but this does not mean that everybody can know all realities. What we can begin to understand is that a process with seeing is entirely different from a process with hearing, and that these are clearly demarcated. The different processes do not run into each other or melt into each other. There are other types of citta in between them, and these are called bhavangacittas. If we learn more about the cittas arising in processes, such as seeing or hearing, it will help us to understand more about bhavangacittas. They are a kind of gap between the processes. But we should not try to catch them. We shall not understand bhavangacittas by thinking about them too much, by reasoning. Only by finding out more about what presents itself now. ******* Nina. #64147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:30 am Subject: object of cuticitta nilovg Dear Han, --------- ---------------------------- Han: Please excuse my ignorance, but I do not see the Dispeller of Delusion mentioning that the patisandhi citta takes a different object from that has been taken by the cuti citta of past life. Or, is it my failure to see the obvious? --------- N: This is the essence: there arises the death consciousness making the object (visaya) of the lifecontinuum (bhavanga) its object. The cuticitta cannot have another object except that of the life- continuum of that same life that is about to end. It is as it were the final chord of that life. --------- N: When that has ceased, there arises, being instigated by that same kamma or sign of kamma which had come into focus, the rebirth linking consciousness. Kamma or sign of kamma, that was the object of the last javanacittas before dying. Something new, not like the object of all bhavangacittas arising throughout life. The text says: it had come into focus. A very special moment. Is it still difficult? It may help to read also the other paras of this section. After different objects of the last javanacittas are explained (any sense object, or kamma or sign of kamma, or sign of destiny) it is repeated all the time that the death consciousness makes the object (visaya) of the lifecontinuum (bhavanga) its object. That is why it is said that this is always a past object. Nina. #64148 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thank you for your further comments. --- Scott Duncan wrote: Scott:> I found the ceremony to be outside of my realm of experience until > then, to be sort of exciting and weird, to be sort of full of wonder > in the sense of, "I wonder how this literally effects beings in other > realms." .... S: We don't know, but it's the 'pu~n~na' or merit which counts! ... >As to pu~n~na, if I > followed this, it is the happiness that arises after doing wholesome > acts that is subject to being "shared." He said that this was the > only "thing" related to kamma that need not remain one's own. .... S: Such ceremonies and the use of the term 'pu~n~na' are very common in Sri Lanka and date back to the Buddha's time as far as I know. Often there is a pouring of water to represent the sharing of merit and a recital of suttas such as the 'Without the Walls Discourse' found in Khuddakapaa.tha. [See 'Useful Posts' under 'Merit- Sharing' for much more] Pu~n~na refers to wholesome deeds or kamma and there are 10 pu~n~na kiriya vatthu (bases of meritorious deeds, which you can also find more on under 'punna' in U.P.). Briefly, these are daana (generosity), siila (morality), bhaavanaa (mental development), reverence (apaciti), service (veyyaavacca), pattaanuppadaana (sharing of merit), abbhaanumodana (rejoicing in others' merit), desanaa (expounding the Dhamma), savana (listening to the Dhamma), di.t.thujukamma (straightening of right views. Lots more in the Atthasalini. The Venerable was refering to the sharing of merit (pattaanuppadaana) and the joy associated with the good deeds. Of course, the merit performed is the kusala kamma. If others rejoice in it, that is good kamma (for them). It's a common idea that the kamma is shared or transferred in some way, but of course this is impossible. Here is Thanissaro's translation of the sutta I referred to: >Tirokudda Kanda Hungry Shades Outside the Walls Outside the walls they stand, and at crossroads. At door posts they stand, returning to their old homes. But when a meal with plentiful food and drink is served, no one remembers them: Such is the kamma of living beings. Thus those who feel sympathy for their dead relatives give timely donations of proper food and drink -- exquisite, clean -- [thinking:] "May this be for our relatives. May our relatives be happy!" And those who have gathered there, the assembled shades of the relatives, with appreciation give their blessing for the plentiful food and drink: "May our relatives live long because of whom we have gained [this gift]. We have been honored, and the donors are not without reward!" For there [in their realm] there's no farming, no herding of cattle, no commerce, no trading with money. They live on what is given here, hungry shades whose time here is done. As water raining on a hill flows down to the valley, even so does what is given here benefit the dead. As rivers full of water fill the ocean full, even do does what is given here benefit the dead. "He gave to me, she acted on my behalf, they were my relatives, companions, friends": Offerings should be given for the dead when one reflects thus on things done in the past. For no weeping, no sorrowing no other lamentation benefits the dead whose relatives persist in that way. But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha, it works for their long-term benefit and they profit immediately. In this way the proper duty to relatives has been shown, great honor has been done to the dead, and monks have been given strength: The merit you've acquired isn't small.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #64149 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] object of cuticitta hantun1 Dear Nina, I am sorry I keep on bothering you. My main question was not what object cuti citta takes, but what object the patisandhi citta takes. What I gather from your latest post is: The answer I am looking for must then be: “patisandhi citta takes something new object, not like the object of all bhavangacittas arising throughout life, that had come into focus at a very special moment.” Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > --------- > N: This is the essence: there arises > the death consciousness making the object (visaya) > of > the lifecontinuum (bhavanga) its object. > The cuticitta cannot have another object except that > of the life- > continuum of that same life that is about to end. It > is as it were > the final chord of that life. > --------- > N: When that has > ceased, there arises, being instigated by that same > kamma or sign of kamma which had come into focus, > the > rebirth linking consciousness. > Kamma or sign of kamma, that was the object of the > last javanacittas > before dying. Something new, not like the object of > all > bhavangacittas arising throughout life. The text > says: it had come > into focus. A very special moment. > Is it still difficult? It may help to read also the > other paras of > this section. After different objects of the last > javanacittas are > explained (any sense object, or kamma or sign of > kamma, or sign of > destiny) it is repeated all the time that the death > consciousness > makes the object (visaya) of the lifecontinuum > (bhavanga) its object. > That is why it is said that this is always a past > object. > Nina. #64150 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] object of cuticitta hantun1 Dear Nina, Now, I know why the confusion arises. I was asking the object taken by patisandhi citta of present life and object taken by cuti citta of past life (or) object taken by cuti citta of present life and object taken by patisandhi citta of future life. You thought I was asking the object taken by patisandhi citta of present life and object taken by cuti citta of present life. I am sorry I could not ask clearly. Please forgive me. Respectfully, Han #64151 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 5:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your kind post. I'll enter the famous stacks again. S: "...For no weeping, > no sorrowing > no other lamentation > benefits the dead > whose relatives persist in that way. > But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha, > it works for their long-term benefit > and they profit immediately..." With loving kindness, Scott. #64152 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu scottduncan2 Dear Joop, Thanks for your response. J: "Rebirth or 'rebecoming' as you name it is not a part of my system, I do not believe in it and I don't have the need to believe in it. Starting from that point I try to understand what Buddhadasa Bhikkhu has said in his talks about kamma and that is not so easy. (About rebirth he said: " Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn. So, the whole question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all.") On matters of belief, then, gentlemen agree to disagree :) I'm afraid that I hold the Dhamma opinions of others like Venerable Buddhadasa in the same way - albeit in second place - to my own opinions of Dhamma: With great suspicion. My own I suspect; those of others I try to 'respectfully' suspect. With loving kindness, Scott. #64153 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "...I am studying this right now!" Me too!! Scott. #64154 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 5:56 am Subject: Re: ADL 87, object of bhavanga matheesha333 Hi Nina, Howard, H: I presume the > objects of the > huge multitude of bhavangacittas dring a lifetime are (distinct) > copies or > faithful memories of the original rather than the same object, nama > or rupa, > existing continuously throughout an entire lifetime! That is, I > assume that "the > same" really means "corresponding". > ------- > N: This was discussed some time ago, and the word photo copy was > used. The word corresponding is not so precise, I think. > It is allowable to use the word same for: same type of object, same > type of citta. M: If bhavanga citta has an object, is it an object which cannot be detected through the sense doors (because in sleep, swoon etc nothing is detected) ? If not, then bhavanga citta can be only noted as an abscence. with metta Matheesha #64155 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > S: "...For no weeping, > > no sorrowing > > no other lamentation > > benefits the dead > > whose relatives persist in that way. > > But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha, > > it works for their long-term benefit > > and they profit immediately..." ..... S: And I'm sure you will have appreciated the 'Salla Sutta' along similar lines to the first ones here. But it always seems fresh and memorable whenever I read it, so let me quote it again: Sn 3.8 Salla Sutta The Arrow [A recollection on death] Source: From The Discourse Collection: Selected Texts from the Sutta Nipata (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). Copyright © 1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Access to Insight edition © 1994 ... "Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life. "The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter. "In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain. "By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. "Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. "Therefore, having listened to the arahant[The Buddha}, one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." "As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief. "With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana." ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #64156 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 7:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, no 89. nilovg Dear friends, When a rúpa which is one of the sense objects contacts one of the senses, there is first one moment of bhavanga-citta arising and falling away which is denoted by the name atíta-bhavanga or ``past bhavanga''. This citta is succeeded by the bhavanga-calana or ``vibrating bhavanga''. It is called ``vibrating bhavanga'' because it is disturbed by the object, although it does not experience that object. The last bhavanga-citta which arises before the stream of bhavanga-cittas is interrupted and the pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta adverts to the object, is the bhavangupaccheda or ``arrest- bhavanga'', so called because the bhavanga-cittas process is arrested after this citta. The different names which denote these bhavanga-cittas do not represent different functions; bhavanga-cittas have as their only function to keep the continuity in the life of a being. The different names only indicate that these bhavanga-cittas are the last ones before the stream is interrupted and a new object which impinges on one of the doorways is experienced by a process of cittas. When the bhavangupaccheda, the arrest-bhavanga, has arisen and fallen away, a sense-door process of cittas which experience an object through one of the sense-doors can begin. When the sense-door process is over, the stream of bhavanga-cittas is resumed, so that the series of cittas succeeding one another in our life is not interrupted. The object which impinged on one of the senses is then experienced through the mind-door. In between the sense-door process and the mind- door process, however, there are bhavanga-cittas. When the cittas of the mind-door process have fallen away, the stream of bhavanga-cittas is resumed. A sense object which is experienced through one of the five senses is rúpa. Rúpa arises and falls away, but it does not fall away as rapidly as nåma. One rúpa which impinges on one of the senses, can be experienced by several cittas succeeding one another in a process. When, for example, the rúpa which is sound impinges on the earsense, it can be experienced by cittas arising in the ear-door process. Before the process starts there are bhavanga-cittas. The last bhavanga-cittas which arise before the sound can be experienced by the cittas of the ear-door process are: atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga) bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga). ******** Nina #64157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 7:44 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 70 nilovg Dear friends, We may have theoretical understanding of the fact that we cannot control any reality which arises and that we thus cannot control the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. However, we still may be troubled by fear of rebirth. It is love of ‘self’ which conditions this fear. We are worried about what will happen to the ‘self’ after we die and we are afraid that this ‘self’ will not be successful in the development of insight in the next life. The sotapanna does not worry about what would happen to a self, because he has eradicated belief in a self. Moreover, he has no more conditions for an unhappy rebirth. So long as one is not a sotapanna one clings to a self and there are conditions for an unhappy rebirth. It is understandable that we worry about the lack of an opportunity to develop right understanding in a next life. However, we should remember that a moment of awareness of a reality is never lost, it conditions the arising of awareness again, later on. Also awareness which arises now is conditioned, it is conditioned by moments of listening to the Dhamma and considering it in the past, even in past lives. Evenso awareness which arises now, although it falls away, conditions awareness in the future, since it is accumulated. Even if the next rebirth would be in an unhappy plane where there is no opportunity to develop insight, there will be following lives again in other planes where the development of insight can continue. Even the Bodhisatta was once reborn in a hell plane, but after that life he was reborn in the human plane where he continued to develop satipatthana. ******* Nina. #64158 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL 87, object of bhavanga nilovg Hi Matheesha, Yes, right, it cannot be experienced through a doorway, it is special. Hard to describe it, I do not know it, no insight! As a blank between processes perhaps, because we cannot know its object. Nina. Op 9-okt-2006, om 14:56 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > M: If bhavanga citta has an object, is it an object which cannot be > detected through the sense doors (because in sleep, swoon etc nothing > is detected) ? > > If not, then bhavanga citta can be only noted as an abscence. #64159 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/8/06 7:31:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > -------------------------------------------- > H: >Developing a habit of introspection or ongoing attentiveness to > the flow of experence does in fact go a long way towards accomplishing > this. > --------------------------------------------- > > Are you talking about some future action we might take? In other > words, are you saying the horse has not bolted? > > ==================== What, conventionally, "we" do now is actually the occurrence of many conditions. Those horses are running right now. If cetana directs useful ones, useful results will occur in the future. Conventionally that translates into "Doing the right thing now leads to good future results." But if you refuse to use conventional speech, you should be considetent in that. Unfortunately, that would require saying nothing at all! :-( With metta, Howard #64160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] object of cuticitta nilovg Dear Han, No need to apologize. I understand that the subject can be confusing. I was drawing things out for Lodewijk. Nina. Op 9-okt-2006, om 12:30 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > You thought I was asking the object taken by > patisandhi citta of present life and object taken by > cuti citta of present life. > > I am sorry I could not ask clearly. > Please forgive me. #64161 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, The para of the Visuddhimagga about multiple causes that give multiple fruits and the reason why only one cause and one fruit is given is very interesting. One representitive cause and fruit: ignorance conditions kamma formations. We can apply this principle to other parts of the teachings. I come now to Howard's quote to Charles D: Attention is manasikara. Ven. Nyanaponika in Abh studies writes about the Pentad of sense impression, also called phass-pa`ncaka (phassa is in other texts enumerated first). I quote (p. 47, 48): It does not mean that there are no other cetasikas accompanying citta, but these are representatives. Not all dhammas are enumerated everywhere. This may help those who compare sutta texts and Abhidhamma texts and are wondering about differences in numbers. The same for the 'what-so-evers', or supplementary factors, yevapannaka, that denote other cetasikas in the list of the Dhammasangani which are not expressively mentioned. (See Nyanaponika, p. 33). Some poeple wonder why the list is not complete, but there are reasons for this. They are given in the following sections of the Vis. Nina. Op 9-okt-2006, om 14:34 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: N: "...I am studying this right now!" > Scott: Me too!! #64162 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 87, object of bhavanga upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Plamen) - In a message dated 10/9/06 5:13:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Plamen, > I appreciate your interest. > ----------- > H: It > is said that the initial state of consciousness (patisandhi citta) of > a given > life and the subsequent bhavangacittas of that life have "the same" > object. > What I would ask is what is meant by "the same". I presume the > objects of the > huge multitude of bhavangacittas dring a lifetime are (distinct) > copies or > faithful memories of the original rather than the same object, nama > or rupa, > existing continuously throughout an entire lifetime! That is, I > assume that "the > same" really means "corresponding". > ------- > N: This was discussed some time ago, and the word photo copy was > used. The word corresponding is not so precise, I think. > It is allowable to use the word same for: same type of object, same > type of citta. My eye fell on this text: Topics of Abh, Co to > Abhidhammattha Sangaha, (T.A. Ch 5 , The Process free, p. 212): same consciousness: it is the same consciousness in so far as it is > called such, owing to its similarity to that consciousness, like > saying 'those same medicines'.> > --------- > H: Are all bhavangacittas said to be identical in terms of object only? > Or also in terms of kinds and degrees of cetasikas? If they are to be > identical > in *all* respects, how can there be insight in place in some but not in > others. Insight is a cetasika. > ------- > N: They also have the same types of cetasikas. Thus, they may be > without roots, or with two or three sobhana roots. There may be > wisdom accompanying them or not. > There is not insight with them, they are vipaakacittas, but they are > a reflection of the kamma that produced them. I do not quite get your Q. ----------------------------------------- Howard: You had written the following to Matheesha: > Dear Matheesha, > Q. 1: We cannot experience the bhavangacitta when insight is not > developed. It is real, but I cannot experience it now. There are many > things taught in the Tipitaka I cannot experience yet. The Buddha > taught them and that means that it is possible to experience them. My point was that if all bhavangacittas are identical, including their cetasikas, then if one of then is without wisdom, they will all be without it. So, what sense can there be to Q 1 above? If the rebirth consciousness is without pa~n~na, then all the bhavangacittas of that lifetime would also be without it. ------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > H: survival of the body depends on mentality being present to keep > the various > sustaining constructive and destructive processes of metabolism going > - to > maintain breathing, digestion, heart function, elimination etc. But > to the > extent that these require mental operations, they would require a > *variety* of > complex operations that would surely go far beyond a mere repetition > of the > simple, unvarying bhavangacittas. > -------- > N: Bhavangacitta is a type of citta that originates rupas. Kamma, > citta, heat and nutrition are the four factors originating rupas of > the body. During the bhavangacittas also kamma, heat and nutrition > operate. You can go without taking food for seven days and nutritive > essence in the body still maintains the other rupas. --------------------------------------- Howard: You call it "nutritive essence". I call it "blood". ;-) -------------------------------------- > > ------ > Plamen: On the other hand, bhavanga-citta is functional (pavattati) only > when the sevenfold vinnana gets dysfunctional (nivattati), and this > is in dreamless sleep, swoon, and death. > ------- > N: Yes, we can include swoon. When in great pain you may lose > consciousness as we say. There are then bhavangacittas and then the > pain is not felt. No bodyconsciousness that experiences rupas that > cause pain. > This reminds me of something else. When we have pain, there are also > moments of the eye-door process or ear-door process and at such > moments there cannot be pain at the same time. > Each citta can experience only one object. It is good to remember > this in daily life, it prevents us from holding on to objects. The > same goes for sadness. There is not sadness continuously, it is > interrupted by seeing, and other cittas, or by hearing and other > cittas. This can help us to face difficult moments in daily life. But > we tend to forget that there are different cittas taking different > objects all the time. It is so beneficial to learn about different > cittas experiencing different objects in the various processes. > > ______ > H: I read the words "not impinge on a doorway," but without much further > explanation this holds no meaning for me. > --------- > N: Take the above example about swoon. During the moments of > bhavangacittas we are not assailed by all the objects that are > experienced through the senses and the mind-door, and no thinking > about them, no dwelling on them. -------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, also no consciousness and no object of consciousness, and no time interval. -------------------------------------- > --------- > H, quotes: Seeing arises in a process, and hearing > >arises in another process. Different processes are demarcated by > >bhavangacittas. > >The characteristic of bhavangacitta can be known by insight. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > How do you know that? > ------------------------------------------ > N: The Buddha did not teach realities merely for the sake of knowing > them theoretically. Whatever is truth can be known, but this does not > mean that everybody can know all realities. > What we can begin to understand is that a process with seeing is > entirely different from a process with hearing, and that these are > clearly demarcated. The different processes do not run into each > other or melt into each other. There are other types of citta in > between them, and these are called bhavangacittas. If we learn more > about the cittas arising in processes, such as seeing or hearing, it > will help us to understand more about bhavangacittas. They are a kind > of gap between the processes. But we should not try to catch them. > We shall not understand bhavangacittas by thinking about them too > much, by reasoning. Only by finding out more about what presents > itself now. > > ******* > Nina. > > ===================== With metta, Howard #64163 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 10/9/06 2:52:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > But if you refuse to use conventional speech, you should be > considetent in that. =================== I continue to have a keyboard problem. "considetent" was intended to be "consistent". LOL! With metta, Howard #64164 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:27 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard (and all interested), When I read the following, I am left a little confused because it sounds like you are talking more about an aggregate of the body or the world: 1) You think of Sensations as rupas that are experienced, and most typically body-door rupas. Those sensations may be felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. 2) You do not think of sensations as the Capacity to feel. 3) Vedanas are activations/instances of the operation of affectively "tasting" object-content as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. Then how do you define them as an aggregate of the mind? Or, would you accept the word "Feelings" as a better word than sensations? Charles DaCosta #64165 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:06 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - need a favor dacostacharles Hi all DSG, Does any one have the time and know how to generate a reference list of all the texts that describe or just talk about the 5 aggregates? Thanks Charles DaCosta #64166 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:31 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard (and all interested), I got confused by your statements, "It's not what I believe or consider. There are the usual 5 aggregates. In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called mentality." That is his definition of nama. And these namic elements may be defiled or freed from defilement." Are you saying you do not believe the "5 aggregates" you listed? If I am right, then what do you consider to be the best list? I must also admit that I have never seen "contact and attention" in the list of aggregates, so it would be nice if someone can generate a reference list of all the sutras that describe the 5 aggregates. This way they can be compared. It is also interesting that you used "volition" instead of "intellect." I have seen them both used, with volition be the "personality" aggregate (i.e., the "I", desires, motivations). Would you consider replacing "Attention" with awareness? Charles Anthony DaCosta #64167 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:19 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard (and all interested), I think you are right about the Flight-or-Fight response and other "instincts." We will save them for a little later. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 05:01 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind . . . the "Flight-or-Fight" response (and other reactions that psychologist believe are instinctive) is complex, involving a sequence of many mind-states. Included would be fear, heightened attention, a sense of urgency, and a very quick semi-conscious process of thought. #64168 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 12:28 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - to Sarah abt V. Samahita dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I have actually communicated with Ven Samahita. And, at some point I plan to write him again to see if I can become a monk for a short time (a month) where he is. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:36 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Hi Charles, Did you see Ven Samahita's note in which he mentioned that he also comes from Denmark originally? #64169 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:34 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard, Now, do you consider these the aggregates of the Mind as a whole or just Clinging? In other words, what is the mind? Is it the Watcher, Clinger, Maintainer, Seeker, Re-actor, or all the above (what else)? Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 03:29 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Hi, Charles - . . . the usual 5 aggregates: In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called mentality." That is his definition of nama. And these namic elements may be defiled or freed from defilement. #64170 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:01 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] What is Mind dacostacharles Hi Plamen, Thanks, and you are right. To begin, I should go back to the "Intro's to the Abidharma." I guess I am running out of excuses so I will dig them up. I am not sure what you mean by the "soteriological aspects of Buddhism," put I prefer all things practical. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Plamen Gradinarov Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 14:56 <..> Dear Charles, If you are interested in the epistemological and methodological rather than soteriological aspects of Buddhism, I would recommend starting with some Abhidhamma/Abhidharma work, be it Abhidhammattha- sangaha or Abhidharmakosa. First is available online: http://www.abhidham ma.com/abhidhamma_books.html The AK, however, should be purchased (~$300). As for the ahamkara of Samkhya, the term is to be met also in Buddhist scriptures. Sometimes it is interpreted as manas (mind, the seventh vinnana) producing the conceit (mana) that I am (asmiti mana, or just asmimana) - hence the I-factor (aham-kara, I-doer, Ego- maker). Manas as Ahankara is actually the producer of the pervert feeling of personal identity. Kindest regards, Plamen #64171 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - Plamen dacostacharles Hi Plamen, Now I can also see how I was going to end up off track. This first model is supposed to be purely Buddhist (with other Indian systems as a frame of reference). So for now I am not concern about Truth, I am concern about the Buddhist's view on the subject. Thanks again Charles DaCosta _____ <...> From: dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Plamen Gradinarov Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 09:53 Dear Charles, > it can however be argued that this is the > brain, the container of the Mind), sensory channels/nerve pathways. Please keep in mind, that Indian systems are "brainless." Mind is not in any way connected to the physical brain (mastiska), it rather resides in the heart. Kindest regards, Plamen #64172 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/9/06 5:05:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard (and all interested), > > > I got confused by your statements, "It's not what I believe or consider. > There are the usual 5 aggregates. In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling,> > perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called mentality." > That is his definition of nama. And these namic elements may be defiled or > freed from defilement." > > > > Are you saying you do not believe the "5 aggregates" you listed? If I am > right, then what do you consider to be the best list? ----------------------------------------- Howard: My original primary point was that the aggregate of rupa should be excluded in the definition of "mind". In the list given in MN 9, there are vedana and sa~n~na explicity. I suppose that volition is representative of the larger sankharakkhandha, and that phassa is standing in for vi~n~nana. In that list, attention is being given attention, it seems! ;-) I don't know why the Buddha in that teaching broke nama down as he did. Perhaps the commentaries have some light to shed on that. It is exactly the sort of thing I would look to the commentaries for. :-) -------------------------------------------- > > > I must also admit that I have never seen "contact and attention" in the list > of aggregates, so it would be nice if someone can generate a reference list > of all the sutras that describe the 5 aggregates. This way they can be > compared. > > > > It is also interesting that you used "volition" instead of "intellect." I > have seen them both used, with volition be the "personality" aggregate > (i.e., the "I", desires, motivations). > > > > Would you consider replacing "Attention" with awareness? ---------------------------------------- Howard: It wasn't *I* who was using one word or another. I was just quoting from MN 9. ---------------------------------------- > > > > Charles Anthony DaCosta > =================== With metta, Howard #64173 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard In a message dated 10/9/06 5:06:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > > Hi Howard (and all interested), > > > > I think you are right about the Flight-or-Fight response and other > "instincts." We will save them for a little later. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm glad we agree. :-) ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Charles DaCosta > ======================= With metta, Howard #64174 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Howard, I think my problem in these discussions is I that use too much conceptual language. :-) I say, for example, that billions (or trillions) of citta-moments occur every second. But a second is just a concept. In reality there is only one citta, and that is the citta of the present moment. -------------------- KH: > > Are you talking about some future action we might take? In other words, are you saying the horse has not bolted? H: > What, conventionally, "we" do now is actually the occurrence of many conditions. Those horses are running right now. ----------------------- Yes, but, as I was saying, there is really only one citta and, therefore, there is no conventional "doing." Conventional reality is no reality at all. ------------------------------- H: > If cetana directs useful ones, useful results will occur in the future. Conventionally that translates into "Doing the right thing now leads to good future results." ------------------------------ But there is no control over "doing the right thing now." The dhammas of the present moment have bolted before we can control them. That was the point we began with. Sometimes, by conditions, citta will have the idea of "purposely doing the right thing now." It will think, "Why wait for the right conditions? We begin from where we are, not from where we want to be!" :-) But the right thing (kusala citta) is neither a matter of waiting nor a matter of trying. It is just an impersonal, conditioned, dhamma. ---------------------------------------- H: > But if you refuse to use conventional speech, you should be consistent in that. Unfortunately, that would require saying nothing at all! :-( ---------------------------------------- I will try not to let that happen. :-) Ken H #64175 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:17 am Subject: Re: Object of the three cittas nilovg Dear Han, I answer you on line, it is good you bring it up. don't worry about confusion or causing trouble. It is very good to discuss. I think several people may believe that the object of the cuticitta of a life could change, but it cannot! So, change BUT NOT into: Yes, Yes. ;-)) It may be clearer if you look again at the texts I gave. Again, Dispeller: Please look again: Which life continuum? It can only be of the life that is going to end, thus the same life. What do you think? With the patisandhi-citta there is a new beginning. rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga ---------------------just before dying: last javanacittas with an object conditioned by kamma, cuticitta (still same object as all the bhavangas)# new life: rebirth- consciousness taking the same object as the last javanas. bhavanga: taking that same object as rebirth-consciousness, -------cuti# etc. Nina. Op 10-okt-2006, om 7:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (but NOT) > > patisandhi citta of present life, bhavanga citta of > present life, and cuti citta of present life. > > This triad does not take the same object because the > cuti citta of present life will take a different > object from that of patisandhi citta of present life > and bhavanga cittas of present life. #64176 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, > Yes I remember that we spoke about a cycle. I think it is > appropriate, Hallo Nina, Scott, all Nina: " As to Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, I do not know much about him. What I saw didi not appeal much to me, but that is personal. Perhaps it sounds pedantic, but I prefer the ancient texts." Joop: Yes, I prefer the ancient texts too: the Suttas Nina (about D.O.): "Yes I remember that we spoke about a cycle. I think it is appropriate, because after dying there is rebirth and we start all over!! Again and again." Joop: No it's not appropriate because the Suttas do not speak about a cycle at all when describing DO, DO and rebirth are two different things. Based on the Suttas (when explaining DO) there is a chain with two mini-cycles: (1) With the arising of birth there is the arising of aging and death And (in conventional language) after death there is birth again … (chain) … (2) With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance  ^ With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints (Quotes from MN 9) Metta Joop #64177 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:48 am Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi Scott > I still recall the sense of joy I felt in reading Survey of Paramattha > Dhamma. This drove me into the Abhidhamma texts and, as now, into the > ocean of pa.t.thaana. For me it was Abhidhamma in Daily Life, the first chapter, followed by the books on perfections. I keep thinking there was a sense of recognition - of something I'd been looking for. I remember when reading the general introductory books and Dhammapada (my introduction to the suttanta) thinking that it was very good and nice to develop kusala intenitonally in the ways taught in those popular books (with so little focus on the defilements, which are not cozy to read about) and that it would help to condition a more ethical, moral life, and that is good, of course. I kep thinking that the raft got out into the current, but couldn't where the step to the other side could possibly arise. I thought I would have to turn to Zen to find a way. And then came Abhidhamma. The answers are laid out, albeit in a way that makes it clear that they are not for us, not yet. But at least everything is explicitly and very clearly laid out in theory. Very thrilling. And now I find myself going back to meditation as taught in those popular books and benefiting from it thanks to understanding a little Abhidhamma that helps me not to take the meditation too seriously, helps me to see that it is not bhavana just by virtue of being a pale imitation of the bhavana described in the suttas. Albeit a difficult struggle, one of many > re-readings and much contemplation. Its like learning to thread a > needle with a very thin silk strand into the eye of a very tiny > needle. Going back to an earlier text - can one refer to these as > pop-buddhism - seems like threading a rope through a large ring. I think we can still choose a large ring when studying Abhidhamma. It is very attractive to think of panna, for example, as something that we have easy access to, something that works its way without our need to do much. It's very easy to think that we have understood cittas and cetasikas to a degree that begins to give us some kind of detachment - lobha and moha taking our intellectual understanding and disorting it into the appearance of a somewhat liberating kind of knowledge. I used to worry a little about the way this goes on and the way clinging to intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma can be comforting in the same way clinging to intentionally-generated metta is comforting - but not any more. Comforting is ok - helps to condition calm that can help to provide conditions for deeper understanding to arise. That's the way I see it now. But am aware that most of the time it is just seeking comfort from Abhidhamma, because Abhidhamma is dealing with a depth of understanding that is just miles above our head, so profound... I sometimes wonder how it is for you at work, whether you want to offer Dhamma to your patients/clients but hesitate for professional ethical reasons or other reasons or what. I will ask you about that some day but not now. (But I guess I just did, so you can answer if you'd like.) Phil #64178 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:06 am Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi Ken > Ph: > But even people who don't respond to the deeper teachings > can benefit from the Dhamma in other ways that are found through the > general books - I think the simile of the Buddha being a physician > who helps different people in different ways is a good one. > --------------------------------------------------- > > I have heard of that simile, but I don't know the details. Certainly, > some Buddhists have simple aspirations and admit to being > disinterested in enlightenment. They aspire to nothing more than a > happy rebirth. Ph: These days I'm feeling more and more that it's good for people to benefit from the Buddha's teaching even if they benefit in a way that is full of clinging, full of lobha. (Well, of course it is for all of us, but you know what I mean.) Better if it's a deeper way, but even a shallow understanding of Dhamma that is all about becoming a more loving person etc is so superior to the other self- help approaches out there. I think of my wife, Naomi. These days she is having trouble with a mean boss, mean people at work. The situations she describes are the kinds of things that used to bother me too, but which really shrivel up and blow away in a puff of dust after even a couple of years of reflecting in a shallow way on the Dhamma, I find. Unfortunately, I am not good at *talking* about Dhamma (maybe I should send her e- mails, I'm serious!) and though we're about 80% fluent in each other's language there is still enough of language barrier there to make talking about some topics tiring, especially since my job is having conversations with English learners 7 hours a day - I'm always burned out when I get home from work. And she has some resistance to having ideas pushed on her, to having people try to control her, because of childhood experiences. She also has some resistance because of all the time I spend at DSG which she calls a "cult" when she gets pissed off at me for clattering away on the keys when she's trying to sleep in. (It would help if I spent less time here, probably.) On the other hand, she can see that we don't fight any more, haven't had a fight for months now, that I'm much more easy going than I used to be, longer-tempered, that sort of thing, so is interested. So I would like to buy her one of the beginning books, something like SHaron Salzberg's "Loving Kindness", something like that, if they were translated into Japanese. I do not believe that reading Nina's book translated into Japanese (by Robert K's students) will do it, but I should try. Not everyone responds to the Paramattha Dhamma theory. I don't believe she will, somehow. I think one of the popular cozy Dhamma books will be more helpful for her, to begin with - they still contain a lot of good medicine. She loves Australians - lived in Melbourne for a year. If I can ship you over here to have a go at her with the paramattha ds maybe that would do the trick. Phil #64179 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:26 am Subject: How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi again all (ps to Jon) I'll just add that one problem I have when talking about Dhamma with Naomi is that it always becomes about kamma - do these bad things happen to me because of kamma, what did I do to deserve to have such a terrible childhood, is the bad way people treat me at work because I did a bad thing in another life? It's always about kamma, kamma, kamma, this life, past lives. It's so hard to get her to appreciate that it is the moment that counts, that trying to work out the way kamma works is just a maddening imponderable. It's also hard to say yes, the bad things that happen to you are because of kamma. That's not a very palatable pill, so I don't say it, I know it'll result in a kind of depressed feeling - "I was a bad person before so this is happening to me now so that means I am a bad person" kind of thing. Yes, telling her it's *not* about "you" it's about a stream of cittas - not so easy. So how do you all explain kamma to newcomers, kids etc. Especially re horrific things lkike child abuse? The truth is that harsh vipaka *is*, of course, a resultant of kamma. Is this a case where it's best to sweeten the truth? I guess many people believe that the things we experience through the sense doors are not all vipaka. I believe that this they are all vipaka, but if that is incorrect someone please provide proof that the Abhidhamma says otherwise. Phil p.s Jon, I was going to get back to you in the ditthi thread but have babbled my computer time away! Back on Saturday. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Ken > > > Ph: > But even people who don't respond to the deeper teachings > > can benefit from the Dhamma in other ways that are found through > the > > general books - I think the simile of the Buddha being a physician > > who helps different people in different ways is a good one. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > I have heard of that simile, but I don't know the details. > Certainly, > > some Buddhists have simple aspirations and admit to being > > disinterested in enlightenment. They aspire to nothing more than a > > happy rebirth. > > > Ph: These days I'm feeling more and more that it's good for people > to benefit from the Buddha's teaching even if they benefit in a way > that is full of clinging, full of lobha. (Well, of course it is for > all of us, but you know what I mean.) Better if it's a deeper way, > but even a shallow understanding of Dhamma that is all about > becoming a more loving person etc is so superior to the other self- > help approaches out there. > > I think of my wife, Naomi. These days she is having trouble with a > mean boss, mean people at work. The situations she describes are the > kinds of things that used to bother me too, but which really shrivel > up and blow away in a puff of dust after even a couple of years of > reflecting in a shallow way on the Dhamma, I find. Unfortunately, I > am not good at *talking* about Dhamma (maybe I should send her e- > mails, I'm serious!) and though we're about 80% fluent in each > other's language there is still enough of language barrier there to > make talking about some topics tiring, especially since my job is > having conversations with English learners 7 hours a day - I'm > always burned out when I get home from work. And she has some > resistance to having ideas pushed on her, to having people try to > control her, because of childhood experiences. She also has some > resistance because of all the time I spend at DSG which she calls > a "cult" when she gets pissed off at me for clattering away on the > keys when she's trying to sleep in. (It would help if I spent less > time here, probably.) > > On the other hand, she can see that we don't fight any more, > haven't had a fight for months now, that I'm much more easy going > than I used to be, longer-tempered, that sort of thing, so is > interested. So I would like to buy her one of the beginning books, > something like SHaron Salzberg's "Loving Kindness", something like > that, if they were translated into Japanese. I do not believe that > reading Nina's book translated into Japanese (by Robert K's > students) will do it, but I should try. Not everyone responds to the > Paramattha Dhamma theory. I don't believe she will, somehow. I think > one of the popular cozy Dhamma books will be more helpful for her, > to begin with - they still contain a lot of good medicine. > > She loves Australians - lived in Melbourne for a year. If I can > ship you over here to have a go at her with the paramattha ds maybe > that would do the trick. > > Phil > #64180 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Object of the three cittas hantun1 Dear Nina, It is so kind of you to reply on-line. I will present the implications as I see it. (1) It was written in your message 64116: “In one life the patisandhi citta, the bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta experience the same object”. (2) It was mentioned in ADL 87: As we have seen (in chapter 10), the paìisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arose shortly before the dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, of the previous life. If akusala kamma produces the rebirth of the next life there will be an unhappy rebirth. In that case akusala cittas arise shortly before the dying-consciousness and they experience an unpleasant object. The paìisandhi-citta of the next life which succeeds the cuti-citta (the dying consciousness), experiences that same unpleasant object. If kusala kamma produces the rebirth there will be a happy rebirth. In that case kusala cittas arise shortly before the cuti-citta and they experience a pleasant object. The paìisandhi-citta of the next life experiences that same pleasant object. Whatever the object is which is experienced by the last kusala cittas or akusala cittas of the previous life, the paìisandhi-citta experiences that same object. The paìisandhi-citta is succeeded by the first bhavanga-citta of that life and this citta experiences the same object as the paìisandhi-citta. Moreover, all bhavanga-cittas of that life experience that same object. ------------------------------- Han: If you combine the above two, it will mean that if an object “A” is experienced by the patisandhi citta, the bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta of the present life, that object “A” will also be taken up by the patisandhi citta of the next life. Then the patisandhi citta, the bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta of the next life will take up object “A”. Then the object “A” will be taken up by the the patisandhi citta, the bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta of the subsequent lives. In that case the object “A” will be experienced by the patisandhi citta, the bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta of the subsequent lives throughout the samsara. That was my problem. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I answer you on line, it is good you bring it up. > don't worry about confusion or causing trouble. It > is very good to > discuss. I think several people may believe that the > object of the > cuticitta of a life could change, but it cannot! > So, change BUT NOT into: Yes, Yes. ;-)) #64181 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jonoabb Hi Joop (and Nina) Good to see you back again. Joop wrote: > Some months ago I have put sereval messages about DO on DSG in which > I made clear that the Buddha nowhere in a Sutta made a "round", a > cycle of D.O.: he described a series. Centuries later commentaries > made a cycle of it, the cycle of samsara. > 'The Wheel of Birth and Death' by Bhikkhu Khantipalo > The Wheel Publication No. 147/148/149 > "… The History of the Wheel. > Dependent Arising is explained many times and in many different > connections in the Discourses of Lord Buddha, but He has not > compared it to a wheel. This simile is found in the Visuddhimagga > ("The Path > of Purification") and in the other commentarial literature. …" > And nowhere in the Suttas there is said: "With the arising of aging > and death there is the arising of ignorance"! > I'm interested in this and would like to follow it along a bit further. Can you refer me to the passages in Vism or the commentaries where DO is described in terms of a wheel or cycle? Thanks. (I think I asked you for this when you brought the matter up before ... ;-)) Jon #64182 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:15 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 545- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa) As regards compassion, we read in the Visuddhimagga (IX, 94): * "Compassion is characterized as promoting the aspect of allaying suffering. Its function resides in not bearing others’ suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. Its proximate cause is to see helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering. It succeeds when it makes cruelty subside and it fails when it produces sorrow." The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part V, Chapter XIII, 193) gives a similar definition. Compassion has as its near enemy “grief, based on the homelife”. This is dosa, conditioned by attachment which is connected with “worldly life”, that is, attachment to people and pleasant things. Compassion has as its far enemy cruelty (Vis. IX, 99). One cannot practise compassion while one is cruel. As regards the near enemy, grief or aversion, we may take for compassion what is actually aversion, dosa. When we see someone else who is in miserable circumstances, there tend to be different types of cittas, not only kusala cittas with compassion but also akusala cittas. There are moments of compassion when we wish to help someone in order to allay his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his suffering. Compassion and aversion can arise closely one after the other and it is difficult to know their different characteristics. Through right understanding one can come to know their difference. ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64183 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:21 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > "Entitles" and "rupas" are just terms/concepts we use to label something > and > thus giving us the ability to talk about the same thing (we both know > the > label and thus the .). .... S: When you refer to an 'entity' it sounds like a 'whole' such as a tree or computer. So when we use the term, it seems that we're using labels to refer to particular concepts thought about. On the other hand, 'rupas' are labels referring to dhammas which can be directly known, such as visible object, hardness or sound. Wouldn't you agree? ... > Would you really limit all non-human sentient beings to having 6 senses > only? .... S: Only 6 worlds no matter who or what. Perhaps you'd give me an example of a 7th doorway or 'sense'. Metta, Sarah ======== #64184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: >> I think the general flavour of the teachings is that the >> attachment to sense pleasures is gradually lessened as >> the path is developed to its higher levels (but not >> necessarily so to any marked degree before then) > > Hmmm. I would disagree with this, though the meaning of "marked" > is vague. But marked means noticeable, I guess, so I would disagree. > The snse pleasures are now at least tinged with a flavour of > distrust that is noticeable, though not enough to eradicate the > lobha to any really important degree. So back to wondering > what "marked" or "important" would mean. Never mind. > > For example, a few years of development of guarding the sense > doors has resulted in my, automatically and without a moment of > thought, cutting off proliferation that arises from looking at all > the lovely women here in Japan. It's just become my habit to drop > it. At times I don't -I proliferation runs amock at times - but it > is definitely a marked habit, and an important habit, one that has > been developed by staying open to the Buddha's teaching and > reflecting. I know what you mean, but I think we need to be careful about making any assumptions as to how permanent any such change in behaviour is, and whether it represents any underlying change in our accumulations. While the dropping away of a bad habit may well be related to our interest in and appreciate of the teachings, it does not mean that there has been any lessening of the underlying (latent) tendency. For example, someone may turn over a new leaf on just a first hearing of the teachings. Given the mass of unwholesome tendencies that must have been accumulated to date, I think any net change within the space of a single lifetime can only be very small indeed, not even measurable I suspect. > And as we know, there is no difference between looking at a > beautiful painting of a beautiful woman or looking at a "real" woman > walking on the street. I tend to proliferate more on the latter, > perhaps because of the way "real" women jiggle and sway in such a > nice way! > Yes, both sets of visible object are equally 'not-real'. However, one is conditioned by citta and temperature and the other by temperature only. And therein lies a difference! ;-)) > Yes, quite right. But by celebrating I meant openly and explicitly > celebrating the full use of the sense doors, the opening of the > sense doors as being wholesome and wonderful. For example, I used to > think that the philosophy in this song (listen to the chorus about > the lemons and limes) was a wise philosphy but now not. > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=oWcG5sppQjY > I'm afraid the link didn't work for me. Jon #64185 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & all, I enjoyed your recommendations for newcomers:-). --- ken_aitch wrote: >I don't know what such people were told in the > Buddha's day, but I feel sure they were not misled in any way. I think > it was made clear to everyone that there were, ultimately, only dhammas. .... S: Of course I agree with you. Better to hear that there are only dhammas, however unpalatable it may sound at the time, than to be offered 'eternal life in heaven' as you mentioned, however sweet that may sound. ... > I like to imagine how it was [back in 500BC] when word got around that > there was a Buddha - teaching final release from dukkha. <...> >But I am ready to listen and learn." .... S: Yes, I think people were ready to listen and learn. I quoted the bhikkhuni Sela's reply to Mara: "Just so the aggregates and elements, And these six bases of sensory contact, Have come to be dependent on a cause; With the cause's break-up they will cease." SN5:9 I was listening to a tape from last February in Bangkok (you'll hear it soon - also with Azita, Nina, Lodewijk, Chris, Vince and others). K.Sujin was stressing the importance of understanding elements rather than studying 'people' or 'Me': KS: "We are learning to understand the elements - studying the element of citta, the element of cetasika, the element of rupa. So there's no question about 'how' and 'I' and 'me' at all. We do not have any authority to do anything at all - just developing the understanding (of them) as they are, not as 'I' want it to be, not 'why can't it be like this'." "It's like any subject, but this is the subject of elements. Because they are elements, they are not self - that's the way to study dhamma and see dhamma is dhamma. Otherwise there's always the idea that 'I' am learning about 'Me' by studying them as elements. (Then) there's still clinging to them as self." ..... S: There was a lot of (sometimes heated) discussion about going to temples for retreats and following particular practices. At one point Nina sympathetically mentions that she also likes to go for quiet walks and that we all have different inclinations. K.Sujin points out that: "the inclinations are already there, (but) it's not 'I' who follows the inclinations." She elaborates by stressing that when we are very confident that it is only the realities right now that can be directly known, panna (wisdom) can become more and more detached from clinging. There is no alternative but to understand dhammas or elements appearing now, "otherwise there's the idea to go somewhere, to do something which is not this moment at all." There cannot be understanding and detachment from reality now (when we think like this), "because there's the going away from it from moment to moment, never understanding it." "It's only keeping on going away, escaping this moment, thinking there'll be the green grass over there." .... S: There was more discussion about inclinations and KS pointed out the difference between learning and understanding with firm confidence at this moment - any inclination is only ever a dhamma right now. She points out how subtle the Path is - it is the 'studying of reality, not studying 'I' at all.' Nina rightly pointed out that it's difficult to say this to others and KS replied by saying that "it depends what they'd like to hear - the Self or the elements." So, I think we come back to your points - that the teachings are about dhammas, about elements. They're not about encouraging anyone in their wrong beliefs. Sometimes people do get agitated or walk away, but often they continue to consider and reflect and often come back later to hear more. Metta, Sarah ======= #64186 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? sarahprocter... Hi Larry & all, --- Larry wrote: > Hi Nina and all, > > Taking the idea that fear is dosa I find that the proximate cause of > dosa is the 9 causes of > malice which are: > > 1-3. He (or it?) has done, is doing, or will do me an injury. > > 4-6. He has done, is doing or will do an injury to someone who is dear > to me. > > 7-9. He has done, is doing, or will do a favour to someone who is > hateful to me. > > L: Here I guess we substitute 'fear' and 'fearful' for 'malice' and > 'hateful'. The 9 ways of > overcoming fear would be the same thoughts plus "what good would it do > to be afraid", > e.g., "He will do me an injury, what good does fear do" (substitute > 'hate' for 'fear' to get > the remedy for hate). > > The deeper remedy would be to see the error of the conceit 'I am'. > > Larry > see DN33, Sangiiti Sutta, and CMA p.84 .... S: This is all good material, but weren't you discussing byaya-~naa.na (insight into the fearfulness or danger of all conditioned dhammas)? As Nina pointed out, such insight has nothing whatsoever to do with the dosa or fear which this sutta refers to. Insight always refers to a high degree of panna as you know and in this case is the insight into the harm or danger of conditioned dhammas which are impermanent and yet clung to again and again. It's only by developing earlier insights into the clear understanding of namas and rupas, the conditioned nature of dhammas, the arising and falling away of dhammas and so on that the true fearfulness or danger of conditioned dhammas can be seen. Then there is the gradual turning away from all that is conditioned and the bending towards the unconditioned dhamma. Hope this helps. Metta, Sarah ======= #64187 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta sarahprocter... Dear Plamen, (We speak different languages, so apologies for misunderstandings). --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > One can be fond of sleeping, but analyzing one's fondness to deep > sleep without dreams, we see that the pleasure is associated with the > post-sleep realization/feeling 'I slept well', rather than with the > process of dreamless sleeping (susupti). It is this postapperception > that we get attached to, which, of course, is not bhavanga-citta. .... S: Yes - I think it's the attachment to various thoughts about having slept well and post sleep experiences of various kinds. .... > > The Buddhist Yoga stand to Alaya could be - very roughly and very > schematically - reconstructed and summarized in the following way: > > 1. There is a continuum (alaya) of wake life of consciousness which > flows like a river of feelings, perceptions, and cognitions regulated > by this or that samskara. Let's denote this first alaya as manifested > alaya of which we are fond, etc. ... S: OK - I'd say continuous cittas and cetasikas .... > > 2. There is a continuum (sota, santana) of interlink cittas, which, > taken collectively, is the container (alaya) of all subliminal bijas > and vasanas (traces) of the wake life consiousness. We can call it > sabija- or even sarvabijaka-alaya consisting of individual > alayavijnanas (bhavanga-cittas). .... S: Bhavanga cittas are cittas - they don't 'link cittas', but arise between sense door and mind door processes. They are not 'subliminal'. It's just that the object is never known and they don't arise through sense or mind door-ways. ... > > 3. And, finally, there is an alaya which is purified (devoid - both > naturally and by means of pratisamkhya-nirodha) from all seeds and > impressions, and hence is the nirbija-alaya, shining forth and > aboriginally spotless. It is this kind of alaya (not the second one) > that - though uncomprehensible (anabhilabhya and anabhilapya) - is > sometimes elliptically said to be the pure, blissful, and unchanging > (dhruva) Dharmin, whose nature is the effulgent nondual (advayam) > citta taken as vijnana-matra. .... S: Let's just say that the only dhamma apart from the 5 khandhas (cittas, cetasikas and rupas) is nibbana. It is not a citta of any kind. When it is experienced, it is done so by lokuttara (supramundane) cittas only. How are we doing? Metta, Sarah ======= #64188 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop (and Nina) > > Good to see you back again. Hallo Jon, Yes, I remember I brought the matter up some months ago. I only did it now because Nina, quoting our friend Bhikkhu Bodhi, stated that DO was a 'round', so I tried again and again to release this misunderstanding. You asked before where in the Vism? I don't know, I don't have a copy of it now in house; and I just quoted Bhikkhu Khantipalo Wheel- publication. But perhaps Bhikkhu Khantipalo and I are in error and Buddhaghosa did not describe DO as a wheel (BTW have you seen Nina did describe it as a wheel, a round?) You must have seen that the first main point was that Stephen Batchelor, formerly a Tibetan monk and then a Korean Zen-monk, is more and more using (Pali-)Suttas in his work in a refreshing way. About the power of Buddhas words: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. And you must have seen also in the message with which I started this thread that my second main point was not criticising Buddhaghosa (Buddhaghosa is completely off-topic in this thread but Nina quoted him) but my admiration for Buddhadasa For example his text about paticcasamuppada: my study of DO continues. As Buddhadasa said: "We are unaware that a process of dependent arising begins and ends in a flash." I started sending a message to DSG after a month silence with much hesitations When nobody in DSG in interested in Batchelor and nobody is interested in Buddhadasa and because I'm not interested in Buddhaghosa, then I can better end DSG-participation. Don't you think so? Joop #64189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:08 am Subject: Dhamma in New york 2. nilovg Dear friends, Continuation of our Discussion with Howard. Part II. Conventional Truth and Ultimate Truth. There is a difference in Theravada and Mahayana. In Mahayana the ultimate nature of everything is emptiness. This does not refer only to emptiness of a personal self, it means interdependence of realities. N: This is also taught in Theravada. H: In Theravada emptiness refers to the fact that there is not a personal self. Mahayana includes that but it includes also the Dependent Origination. Theravada does not use the name emptiness for that. N: Instead of thinking of all these matters Kh S. will always come back to the present moment, to seeing at this moment. N: an addition now : the Dependant Origination can be applied to this moment that is conditioned. We have the latent tendency of ignorance which is not eradicated and can condition time and again the arising of akusala citta. There are many intricate conditions pertaining to each of the links of the D.O. This teaches us that there is no self who can manipulate the realities which arise because of their own conditions and are beyond control. N: We have to know that what appears through the eyes is quite different from seeing a person or a table. I find this a difficult subject, I have to learn this myself. Kh Sujin wants to help us to understand what appears now. Otherwise we will talk and think, talk and think. There can be a beginning of awareness of realities, appearing through one doorway at a time. H: One thing I like very much of Kh Sujin is that she is pointing to what is happening now. That is good. N: We need reminders, we are so forgetful. H: We are lost in thought all the time. L: How fast the mind moves on, it is extremely difficult to control it. H: Mindfulness is a function of the mind that prevents us from getting lost in thought. It keeps us to the present, to what is happening now. N: an addition now: I think it helps to know that it is understanding that should be emphasized. Any object that appears can be the object of understanding and awareness. This means that also when one is confused, such confusion can be known as a conditioned dhamma. Knowing this, even intellectually, is already a degree of pa~n~naa. ******** Nina. #64190 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu sarahprocter... Hi Joop & all, --- Joop wrote: > > Yes, I remember I brought the matter up some months ago. I only did > it now because Nina, quoting our friend Bhikkhu Bodhi, stated that DO > was a 'round', so I tried again and again to release this > misunderstanding. .... S: How do you translate samsara? From the Mahanidana Sutta, DN 15 (Walshe transl): "This dependent origination is profound and appears profound. It is through not understanding, not penetrating this docrtrine that this generation has become like a tangled ball of string, covered as with a blight, tangled like coarse grass, unable to pass beyond states of woe, the ill destiny, ruin and the ROUND of birth-and-death." [S: this 'round' is a translation of sa'msaara]. "If, Ananda, you are asked: "Has ageing-and-death a condition for its existence?" you should answer: "Yes." If asked: "What conditions ageing-and-death?" you should answer: "Ageing-and-death is conditioned by birth"....."Becoming conditions birth"......."Clinging conditions becoming"...etc." ***** It is the continuous round of births and deaths in different realms that is referred to. Because of birth, there has to be death. Because of ignorance, there has to be birth again and again. As one of your quotes pointed out, there is no being which is reborn - merely a succession of cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away continuously. You mentioned that the detail is only in the commentaries, but this is not true. Besides suttas such as the Mahanidana Sutta, there is a lot of detail in texts such as the Patisambhidamagga. The Visuddhimagga quotes from it extensively as here (Vism XV11, 292): "Hence it is said: 'In the previous kamma-process becoming, there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is becoming; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process becoming are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present becoming]'(Ps i 52)." [Here Ps refers to the Patisambhidamagga of the Sutta Pitaka] and (Vism XV11, 297): "Hence it is said: 'In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is descent [into the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense base; there is what is touched, which is contact; that which is felt, which is feeling; thus these five things in the future rebirth-process becoming have their condition in kamma done here [in the present becoming]' (Ps i, 52). So this [Wheel of Becoming] has twenty spokes with these qualities. With triple round it spins for ever: here formations and becoming are the round of kamma. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the round of defilements. Consciousness, mentality-materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the round of result. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as long as the round of defilements is not cut off." ***** S: I quoted the last section to show how the commentary and suttas are in conformity with each other. It's an intricate topic, but I think it's very difficult to read the suttas and to come away with any impression that there is no round of births and deaths, no samsara, no wheel. Of course we don't have to take such terms as 'wheel' literally, but the truth is that birth will always follow death while there is a cause for such and this was the Buddha's teachings. In a sense though, what you quote is correct -- without a clear understanding of namas and rupas, there will always be a misunderstanding about rebirth, there will always be a clinging onto the idea of people being 'reborn'. I'm glad you had a good retreat and look forward to hearing anything further about it. Metta, Sarah ======= #64191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Object of the three cittas nilovg Dear Han (and Matheesha). The patisandhi-citta of the next life can take B as object, if the last javanacittas of the preceding life had B. It is possible that a similar kamma (similar to the kamma that conditioned the patisandhicitta of the present life) conditions again A as object during the last javanacittas. We read that generosity could condition a happy rebirth for seven lives. There are many scenarios and not many texts give details. I found one text in the Patthana, and I wrote this in my Conditions (Ch 4, proximity-condition): < We read in the "Paììhåna''(Feeling Triplet,Vedanå- ttika,VII,Investigation Chapter,Conditions:Positive,Classification Chapter, Proximity 7,§ 45,2): 'State associated with pleasant feeling is related to state associated with neither painful nor pleasant feeling by proximity-condition. Death-consciousness associated with pleasant feeling is related to rebirth- consciousness associated with neither painful nor pleasant feeling by proximity- condition.' When rebirth-consciousness is accompanied by indifferent feeling, it may be kusala vipåkacitta, but it can also be akusala vipåkacitta and in that case there is rebirth in an unhappy plane.> Here you see that there is a change of scenario: the patisandhi- citta that suceeds the cuti-citta of the previous life is not identical to it. This may clarify matters. I miss Htoo, has he written about it on his web? I do not know whether Kel is around, he could also ask his teacher. It is good also to listen to others. ------------- I saw something interesting. Matheesha asked whether bhavangacitta is mentioned in the Tipitaka. Yes, in the Patthana: In several places; Faultless Triplet, proximity; life-continuum is related to advertance (avajjanacitta) in this way. Nina Op 10-okt-2006, om 11:37 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > if an > object “A” is experienced by the patisandhi citta, the > bhavanga citta and the cuti-citta of the present life, > that object “A” will also be taken up by the > patisandhi citta of the next life. #64192 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/9/06 8:24:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > > Hi Howard (and all interested), > > > When I read the following, I am left a little confused because it sounds > like you are talking more about an aggregate of the body or the world: > > 1) You think of Sensations as rupas that are experienced, and most > typically body-door rupas. Those sensations may be felt as pleasant, > unpleasant, or affectively neutral. > > 2) You do not think of sensations as the Capacity to feel. > > 3) Vedanas are activations/instances of the operation of affectively > "tasting" object-content as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. > > > > Then how do you define them as an aggregate of the mind? Or, would you > accept the word "Feelings" as a better word than sensations? > > > > > > Charles DaCosta > ====================== I don't understand the confusion, Charles. When I use the English word 'sensation' I mean a rupa, usually a body-door rupa, that is experienced (in a variety of ways, but most basically as mere object of consciousness). I do not consider that rupa as nama. An itch or felt pressure or bodily warmth or whatever is not a knowing of anything - it is merely known. Vedana, on the other hand, which I render in English by 'feeling' is the mental operation of experiencing an object as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. With metta, Howard #64193 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/9/06 8:33:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think my problem in these discussions is I that use too much > conceptual language. :-) I say, for example, that billions (or > trillions) of citta-moments occur every second. But a second is just a > concept. In reality there is only one citta, and that is the citta of > the present moment. -------------------------------------- Howard: Does that one present citta cease? Is it replaced by a new one? Or does it somehow remain, yet change? Are you *certain* there is but *one* citta - the " present one? It seems to me that when we take any of these notions too seriously, we get lost in a "maze of impossibility". Words and concepts fail when it comes to reality. --------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > KH: >>Are you talking about some future action we might take? In > other words, are you saying the horse has not bolted? > > > H: > What, conventionally, "we" do now is actually the occurrence > of many conditions. Those horses are running right now. > ----------------------- > > Yes, but, as I was saying, there is really only one citta and, > therefore, there is no conventional "doing." Conventional reality is > no reality at all. > > ------------------------------- > H: >If cetana directs useful ones, > useful results will occur in the future. Conventionally that > translates into "Doing the right thing now leads to good future results." > ------------------------------ > > But there is no control over "doing the right thing now." The dhammas > of the present moment have bolted before we can control them. That was > the point we began with. > > Sometimes, by conditions, citta will have the idea of "purposely doing > the right thing now." It will think, "Why wait for the right > conditions? We begin from where we are, not from where we want to be!" > :-) But the right thing (kusala citta) is neither a matter of waiting > nor a matter of trying. It is just an impersonal, conditioned, dhamma. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes it is all, in reality, impersonal, conditioned, and empty. Do you SEE that? ------------------------------------ > > ---------------------------------------- > H: > But if you refuse to use conventional speech, you should > be consistent in that. Unfortunately, that would require saying > nothing at all! :-( > ---------------------------------------- > > I will try not to let that happen. :-) ------------------------------------------ Howard: LOLOL! ------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ===================== With metta, Howard #64194 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/9/06 11:11:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > > Now, do you consider these the aggregates of the Mind as a whole or just > Clinging? > -------------------------------------- Howard: Mind - that is, mental operations - may be defiled or undefiled. When clung to, they are defiled. -------------------------------------- In other words, what is the mind? Is it the Watcher, Clinger,> > Maintainer, Seeker, Re-actor, or all the above (what else)? > > ------------------------------------- Howard: There is no watcher, no clinger, no maintainer, no seeker, and no reactor. There are merely "watching", clinging, and so on. These are events - mere empty conditions occurring and ceasing. ==================== With metta, Howard #64195 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta pgradinarov Dear Sarah, > S: Bhavanga cittas are cittas - they don't 'link cittas', but arise > between sense door and mind door processes. They are not 'subliminal'. Anga is link, or limb. Bhava is existence, so bhavanga-citta is the citta that serves as the connecting link between two "manifested" cittas or caitasikas (capable of conscious apprehension). > It's just that the object is never known and they don't arise through > sense or mind door-ways. Agreed, it is too subtle for that. And because of that it remains under the treshold of the sevenfold consciousness, i.e., subliminal. > S: Let's just say that the only dhamma apart from the 5 khandhas (cittas, > cetasikas and rupas) is nibbana. And akasa. > It is not a citta of any kind. When it is > experienced, it is done so by lokuttara (supramundane) cittas only. Like nirodha-samapatti. > How are we doing? We are bridging gaps perfectly well. :-) Here is another bridge. Buddhism is Yoga, the yoga of turning consciousness from its pravartana mode of existence to its nivartana, from pravrtti to nivrtti which is nirvana. This fundamental turn of consiousness is referred to in Yogacara as asraya-paravrtti, reversal of the basis. Kindest regards, Plamen #64196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:58 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life. 90 nilovg Dear friends, When the stream of bhavanga-cittas has been arrested, the ear-door- adverting-consciousness (sota-dvåråvajjana-citta) adverts to the object through the ear-door. The following cittas in that process which each perform their own function can experience the sound before it falls away. The duration of one material unit, a rúpa, has been determined by the commentaries as seventeen moments of citta. The number seventeen should not be taken as a definite time measure, it is a comparative notion which is expressed here. The cittas in a complete sense-door process of cittas, including three bhavanga- cittas which arise before the impinging rúpa is experienced, are seventeen in number. Later on (in chapter 15) I will deal in more detail with all the cittas arising in a process. Within this process each citta performs its own function while they experience a rúpa which has not fallen away yet. Therefore, the duration of a rúpa has been counted as seventeen moments of citta which succeed one another in a process 1). We cannot count these moments, we cannot imagine the shortness of time of a process of cittas; one citta lasts shorter than a flash of lightning. A process of cittas does not always run its full course. When a rúpa impinges on one of the senses, it may happen that more than one moment of bhavanga-citta passes before the bhavanga-calana, which precedes the bhavangupaccheda; in that case the rúpa which has impinged on one of the senses does not survive until the process is completed since it cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. A process can, after it has started, be interrupted, for example, after the votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness), and then there are no kusala cittas or akusala cittas in that process. It may also happen that the atíta-bhavanga is succeeded by the bhavanga- calana which is ``disturbed'' by the object, but that the rúpa then falls away. In that case there is no bhavangupaccheda (arrest- bhavanga); the stream of bhavanga-cittas is not interrupted and the sense-door process cannot start. Sound may, for example, impinge on the earsense and then the atíta-bhavanga is succeeded by the bhavanga- calana. However, the bhavangupaccheda does not arise and thus the current of bhavanga-cittas is not interrupted and the ear-door process cannot start. In that case the sound cannot be heard. ---------- 1) The commentaries count the duration of ruupa as sixteen or seventeen moments of citta. Al- though the scriptures do not expressively mention these numbers, they refer to the different cittas in processs which each perform their own function while they experience an object, as I explained in my preface. ******* Nina. #64197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:03 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 71 nilovg Dear friends, Unwholesome fear, which is a form of dosa, is harmful for mind and body. However, there is also wholesome fear, which is fear of akusala and its consequences. This fear is different from dosa. Each kusala citta is accompanied by the sobhana cetasikas which are hiri, shame of akusala, and ottappa, fear of blame, fear of the consequences of akusala. When these two cetasikas perform their functions, there cannot be akusala citta at that moment. Wholesome fear of the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death can urge us to persevere with the development of insight until all defilements are eradicated. Then there will be no more rebirth. When the Buddha was still a Bodhisatta he developed satipatthana with patience and perseverance in order to attain Buddhahood and thus to be able to teach other beings as well as the way leading to the end of birth. The 'Mugapakkha Jataka' (VI, no. 538) gives an impressive account of the Bodhisatta's heroism. He never was neglectful of his task of developing wisdom, since he had a wholesome fear of rebirth in Hell. He had to suffer severe tribulations, but he was always perfectly composed and never showed any weak point. When we are in difficult situations do we have perseverance to develop insight? Can there be awareness of any reality which appears through one of the six doors? We may find it difficult to develop right understanding when we are very busy or when we are with other people. We could consider such circumstances as a test or an examination we have to pass. If we fail we have to begin again and again. When we read the 'Mugapakkha Jataka' we can be reminded not to be neglectful in the development of insight. If we realize that it is dangerous to be in the cycle of birth and death there can be a wholesome fear which urges us to be mindful now. ******* Nina. #64198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art nilovg Hi Phil, ha, ha. It worked, but it is not the kind of music I like!. Give me baroque music, I like it very peaceful and quiet. Also lobha. You see we both have lobha accumulated, but in your 'continuum' it is different from in mine. Continuum: citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away. This word, santaana, is used in the Co. to the Yamaka. We have to use it with care. Nina. Op 10-okt-2006, om 12:28 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > http://youtube.com/watch?v=oWcG5sppQjY > > > > I'm afraid the link didn't work for me. #64199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:09 pm Subject: Perfections, to Phil nilovg Hi Phil, You gave me a few things to think about. ---------- Phil: I used to worry a little about the way this goes on and the way clinging to intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma can be comforting in the same way clinging to intentionally-generated metta is comforting - but not any more. Comforting is ok - helps to condition calm that can help to provide conditions for deeper understanding to arise. That's the way I see it now. ------ N: Clinging can seem comforting, but not really. When there is clinging the mind seems so peaceful, but it is fake calm. Whereas each kusala citta is accompanied by true calm, even though it is very short. You asked Lodewijk to encourage you with the perfections. He may write, but is busy with other things, his pianolesson coming along. Can I help you? I quote some of what I wrote on the Perfections: < Khun Sujin reminded us that when there is the development of satipatthana there is no attachment to the result of kusala, no clinging to an idea of: I should have more dana, I should have more sila, I should have more calm . All kinds of kusala are good, but they can become objects of clinging and when there is clinging there is no development of kusala. It is only through satipatthana that sila can become firm and enduring. If there is no development of satipatthana we are actually in a dangerous situation. There may be conditions for kusala citta which observes sila, perhaps for a long time, but who knows his past accumulations of akusala? At any time there can be the arising of akusala citta which motivates a very bad deed. When satipatthana is not developed we are not honest with ourselves. We may think, I can observe the precepts, and delude ourselves into thinking that we are so good, but we may not notice the countless moments of akusala citta. We do not realize that there is no person who observes the precepts or who transgresses them, but that there are only dhammas, arising because of conditions. Kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas arise because of their own conditions, not because of our will. For some people the observance of the fifth precept, the abstaining from alcoholic beverages, is very difficult. One cannot force oneself to keep this precept, it is sati which keeps one from drinking. One can learn to be mindful of realities also while one enjoys the taste of alcoholic drinks. Is there no flavour appearing? It can be known as only a kind of rupa. Are there no tasting, no attachment appearing? These are realities which can be object of awareness. It is through satipatthana that one will know kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, and it is through satipatthana that there will be more conditions to observe sila.> -------- Ph: But am aware that most of the time it is just seeking comfort from Abhidhamma, because Abhidhamma is dealing with a depth of understanding that is just miles above our head, so profound... ------- N: True, I realize more and more that I understand very little of ultimate realities. But I also know that a beginning awareness and understanding is the way to understand more. How elese could we ever understand? ------- Phil to Scott: I sometimes wonder how it is for you at work, whether you want to offer Dhamma to your patients/clients but hesitate for professional ethical reasons or other reasons or what. ------- N: I heard from Matheesha that they receive people in their center who are in really bad shape. What to do? They may not be ready to study the Dhamma. The Buddha would give confused people a gradual teaching, about kusala and akusala, the dangers of akusala, rebirth. When they were ready for it he would speak about the four noble truth, about ultimate realities. It depends on the listeners. When people have already a background of understanding, like you for example, the teaching of ultimate realities can help them, they have a sobering effect on the mind. What do you think? I recall what I quoted some time ago from my Letters: < Therigatha 57, Vijaya), who had been going around in circles, never finding what she needed. And then she heard about the elements, the namas and rupas and found that the clear, exact foundation knowledge is needed first. In the meantime it makes no sense to have discussions about calm. We read in the Therigatha, that Vijaya, after she had attained arahatship, said: Four times, nay five, I sallied from my cell, And roamed afield to find the peace of mind I lacked, and governance of thoughts I could not bring into captivity. Then to a bhikkhuni (nun) I came and asked Full many a question of my doubts. To me she taught Dhamma: the elements, Organ and object in the life of sense, And then the factors of the Nobler life: The ariyan Truths, the Faculties, the Powers, The Seven Factors of Enlightenment, The Eightfold Way, leading to utmost good. I heard her words, her bidding I obeyed. While passed the first watch of the night there rose Long memories of the bygone line of lives. While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye, Purview celestial, I clarified. While passed the last watch of the night, I burst And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. Then, letting joy and blissful ease of mind, Suffuse my body, seven days I sat, Ere stretching out cramped limbs I rose again. Was it not rent indeed, that muffling mist?> ***** Nina.