#65600 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:09 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,117 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 117. When he is confused about dependently-arisen states, instead of taking the occurrence of formations to be due to ignorance, etc., he figures that it is a self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes action, that appears in rebirth-linking, and he figures that atoms, an Overlord, etc., shape its body in the various states of the embryo and endow it with faculties, and that when it has been endowed with faculties it touches, feels, craves, clings, and endeavours, and that it becomes anew in the next becoming; or he figures thus, 'All beings ... [are] moulded by fate, coincidence and nature' (D.i,53). *********************** 117. pa.ticcasamuppannadhammesu vimuu.lho avijjaadiihi sa"nkhaaraadiina.m pavatti.m aga.nhanto ``attaa jaanaati vaa na jaanaati vaa, so eva karoti ca kaareti ca. so pa.tisandhiya.m upapajjati, tassa a.nuissaraadayo kalalaadibhaavena sariira.m sa.n.thapento indriyaani sampaadenti. so indriyasampanno phusati, vediyati, ta.nhiiyati, upaadiyati, gha.tiyati. so puna bhavantare bhavatii''ti vaa, ``sabbe sattaa niyatisa"ngatibhaavapari.nataa´´ti (dii0 ni0 1.168) vaa vikappeti. #65601 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:19 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Howard, That seemed to hit a chord, sorry I am not trying to be provacative. I do appreciate your response. Perhaps to clarify (sorry if this is unnecessary): I wrote: "Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? Want to please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs?" In case this isn't getting across, the answer to all those rhetorical questions is emphatically yes of course! Howard: "...In any case, IMO, it would be tragic were one, in order to avoid "imperfection", scuttle the "loving", the hugging, the tucking in, and the various other attempts at providing the means to benefit the little ones." No doubt about it, Howard. Its interesting though, if I may be permitted to comment at the level of the process of discourse, that this sort of anxiety is expressed as this is discussed (as it was last time). Either I'm miscommunicating or there is, inherent in a consideration of interactions with others and anatta, this fear of 'inhuman' coldness. Personally, I have absolutely no difficulty with this tight-rope, it seems to me. I am anything but a cold father. I have no difficulty with expressing affection. In fact, being a 'mother-father' it almost seems as if I've become warmer as some of the emotional responses needed by the kids have required it of me. And I think that I totally appreciate, at the same time, the new understanding of anatta I've gained learning the Dhamma. Howard: "ARE they no different, and should they be seen as no different? Are they but conditions for you, and should they be seen only as such? Are they but a means to your end? Are human beings *utter* fictions, *fully* unreal, or are they simply empty of existence *as* unitary, self-existent, independent entities?" Here it is again, as I was saying above. I wonder why this comes up? I interact very warmly, inimately, and involedly with these two. The only thing that has changed since their mother died - and since I encountered the Dhamma - in terms of my interactions, is that I've tried to give even more of myself. I am in no way distant or aloof or cold. I am totally devoted to two things these days: the children and the Dhamma. That's it. (Or maybe hockey come playoffs.) I think what I'm seeing as anxiety in relation to such considerations - and what I tend to see as projections, since I know what I know about anatta and how I interact with Rebecca and Luke - may reflect some sort of fear of loss of self from a conventional level. The Dhamma teaches, as I understand it, that 'human beings' are utter fictions, fully unreal. This would have to entail, a discussion about ultimate versus conventional reality, which it is not, not in a direct sense anyway. I don't seem to struggle with this question. Rebecca and Luke are around. They are not 'means to my end'; I am only trying to learn the difference between naama and ruupa and I don't happen to have a problem with anatta - I can't really explain why I don't. I just don't doubt it in the least. Buddha: "...when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." Exactly. I do not find myself wondering about the apparent paradox of anatta in the face of apparent human beings in relationship. I don't worry about non-existence or existence. I think the kids, by being present, are condition for kusala and akusala (although I think Nina addresses this and I'll reply to her as well when time allows). What do you think, Howard? Have I been clearer about myself and my interactions? Scott. #65602 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/24/06 10:28:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > That seemed to hit a chord, sorry I am not trying to be provacative. > I do appreciate your response. Perhaps to clarify (sorry if this is > unnecessary): > > I wrote: "Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? Want to > please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs?" > > In case this isn't getting across, the answer to all those rhetorical > questions is emphatically yes of course! -------------------------------------------- Howard: I assumed exactly that. -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "...In any case, IMO, it would be tragic were one, in order > to avoid "imperfection", scuttle the "loving", the hugging, the > tucking in, and the various other attempts at providing the means to > benefit the little ones." > > No doubt about it, Howard. > > Its interesting though, if I may be permitted to comment at the level > of the process of discourse, that this sort of anxiety is expressed as > this is discussed (as it was last time). Either I'm miscommunicating > or there is, inherent in a consideration of interactions with others > and anatta, this fear of 'inhuman' coldness. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Apparently I missed the point of your post. It seemed to me that you were saying that there was something about that caring that was deficient. I was led to that by your statement "these are very much aspects of what one could mistakenly call 'compassion' when caring for them." ----------------------------------------- > Personally, I have absolutely no difficulty with this tight-rope, it > seems to me. I am anything but a cold father. I have no difficulty > with expressing affection. In fact, being a 'mother-father' it almost > seems as if I've become warmer as some of the emotional responses > needed by the kids have required it of me. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I understood that you are a warm and loving father. It just seemed that you were saying that you somehow felt that something was "wrong" about that o r that maybe it contradicted some sort of alleged Buddhist impersonalism. Given that this was not so, I'm afraid I really don't know what your post was aiming at. I'm sorry that I missed your intent. ---------------------------------------- > > And I think that I totally appreciate, at the same time, the new > understanding of anatta I've gained learning the Dhamma. > > Howard: "ARE they no different, and should they be seen as no > different? Are they but conditions for you, and should they be seen > only as such? Are they but a means to your end? Are human beings > *utter* fictions, *fully* unreal, or are they simply empty of > existence *as* unitary, self-existent, independent entities?" > > Here it is again, as I was saying above. I wonder why this comes up? ----------------------------------------- Howard: It came up because I thought that your post was expressing the idea that there is some contradiction between personal love and caring, which you value enormously, and tha anatta teaching of the Dhamma. Given that this was not the point of your post at all, my response was pointless. ---------------------------------------- > I interact very warmly, inimately, and involedly with these two. > The only thing that has changed since their mother died - and since I > encountered the Dhamma - in terms of my interactions, is that I've > tried to give even more of myself. I am in no way distant or aloof or > cold. > -------------------------------------- Howard: As I said, I thought just the opposite, but I also mistakenly thought you were saying that something about that bothered you vis a vis the Dhamma. -------------------------------------- I am totally devoted to two things these days: the children> > and the Dhamma. That's it. (Or maybe hockey come playoffs.) > > I think what I'm seeing as anxiety in relation to such considerations > - and what I tend to see as projections, since I know what I know > about anatta and how I interact with Rebecca and Luke - may reflect > some sort of fear of loss of self from a conventional level. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm. Well, now I am further confused, because now it seems maybe I wasn't compeletly confused at first. (Or am I now misreading you?!) --------------------------------------------- > > The Dhamma teaches, as I understand it, that 'human beings' are utter > fictions, fully unreal. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. I think that is an overstatement. To say there is no self or lasting core of identity in a person is not the same as saying that there is no person at all in any sense, a person being fully unreal, that is - nothing. The thinking, feeling,seeing, tasting, smelling, hearing, having emotions, all interconnected and related, are the irreducible realities that are the basis for the person. What it is that makes "the person" not an utter fiction is the fact that the dhammas upon which "the person" is imputed is the fact of their being interconnected and related. Kamma works within a single namarupic stream, and that stream hangs together in a non-random fashion. The fiction is in thinking of there being a single thing - a unity that is a self-existent, mind-independent entity of which these paramattha dhammas are aspects. A person, like any other conventional object, differs from paramattha dhammas in that in addition to depending on all the sorts of conditions paramattha dhammas depend on, also is dependent on parts/components and on a mind which imputes entity-status. Just as sights, sounds, tastes, and smells are elements of experience, so are trees, tables, and people. But the trees, tables, and people are compounds depending on their parts and on sankharic construction as phenomena. --------------------------------------------------- This would have to entail, a discussion about> > ultimate versus conventional reality, which it is not, not in a direct > sense anyway. I don't seem to struggle with this question. Rebecca > and Luke are around. They are not 'means to my end'; I am only trying > to learn the difference between naama and ruupa and I don't happen to > have a problem with anatta - I can't really explain why I don't. I > just don't doubt it in the least. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I thought you had exactly a problem with harmonizing that with an idea of there being people who are loved but, according to your take on ths Dhamma, are actually total fictions. At this point, I'm just unclear on what you were aiming at in the post to which I replied. -------------------------------------------------- > > Buddha: "...when one sees the origination of the world as it actually > is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world > does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it > actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the > world does not occur to one." > > Exactly. I do not find myself wondering about the apparent paradox of > anatta in the face of apparent human beings in relationship. I don't > worry about non-existence or existence. I think the kids, by being > present, are condition for kusala and akusala (although I think Nina > addresses this and I'll reply to her as well when time allows). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, that's wonderful. So you DO walk that tightrope with ease. I don't know why I thought you were indicating otherwise. ----------------------------------------- > > What do you think, Howard? Have I been clearer about myself and my > interactions? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Maybe. ;-) The fault must be mine. --------------------------------------- > > Scott. > ==================== With metta, Howard #65603 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:32 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Sorry: 'intimately' and 'involvedly'. I can spell sometimes... S. #65604 From: connie Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:44 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nichiconn I think I love you, Scott! No need to return the sentiment or anything. Just transferrence after all - missing the grand-dad (my mom-dad guy). Or thinking a lot about him again lately anyway. What did I love about him? Most of all, smell. Warmth. Sound. Pleasant feeling. Trust. << ... for the tangible, for mental states >> the warning label on the exquisite Dhamasa"nga.ni, 1059: LOBHA. the mental states. mything him in the "stream of consciousness's" big old long lifetimes of stories woven into the security blanket connie cuddles up in... "all lies and jest", misconceptions and the rest... but look at this little piece of lint on my blankky.... o, that's where I wasn't so fond of grandpa's teaching me sometimes! Not liking not being up to his standards or whatever but still Grandpa's Baby - whew! And here's a tinge of regret for not listening closer. "No sense in that". Nope, just caught off guard and carried away again until the next reminder: You're (acting like) a fool, Sis. yesterday's idly recurring wonder: "intention" as it seems ppl spk of it, say like, freewill, man, is just "desire". but no tongue or cheek intended: the children must have Illustrator. (this fickle one's real love lately). thanks for 'thinking aloud', connie #65605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotaapanna. nilovg Hi Larry and Htoo, I did not see Htoo's message. As I said, I missed him so much, was thinking of him. That is very good news if he is back. Nina. Op 25-nov-2006, om 2:54 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Htoo!!! So nice to see you again. What are your plans? I hope you will > be with us for a good long time. #65606 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:51 pm Subject: Htoo! (was: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotaapanna.) sarahprocter... Hi Nina, Larry & HTOO, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Htoo, > I did not see Htoo's message. As I said, I missed him so much, was > thinking of him. That is very good news if he is back. > Nina. > Op 25-nov-2006, om 2:54 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > > > Htoo!!! So nice to see you again. What are your plans? I hope you will > > be with us for a good long time. .... S: Htoo moves in mysterious ways:-). I didn't see the post Larry referred to either (maybe to Larry off-list), but I also received an off-list note in which he mentions 'he's very busy with everyday life'. I know he helps a lot of people, but I'm not permitted to say more on this. He also mentioned he'd 'finished Paa.li grammar' and is 'still studying many dhammas in real situation'. I think it remains very difficult for him to use the internet, but I also hope he can send us a message from time to time. I mentioned that you and others (inc. us too) miss him. Metta, Sarah ======== #65607 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:24 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 590- The Stages of Insight(l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd We read in the Kindred Sayings (II, Nidåna-vagga, Part XII, Chapter V, § 43, Ill) that the Buddha, while he was at Såvatthí, spoke about the arising of Ill, dukkha, and its cause, and about the ceasing of dukkha and the conditions for its ceasing: * "… What, monks, is the arising of dukkha? Because of sight and visual objects visual consciousness arises, contact is the clash of the three; feeling is conditioned by contact, craving by the feeling. This, monks, is the arising of dukkha. (We then read the same with regard to the other doorways.) And what, monks, is the passing away of dukkha? Because of sight and visible objects visual consciousness arises; contact is the clash of the three; feeling is conditioned by the contact, craving by the feeling. By the utter fading away and ceasing of the craving, grasping ceases, by the ceasing of the grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing of becoming, birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of dukkha. (The same is said with regard to the other doorways.) This, monks, is the passing away of dukkha." * We may read this sutta with theoretical understanding of realities, but only through insight, through direct understanding of the truth, can we grasp the deep meaning of this sutta. There are many degrees of knowing the three characteristics of conditioned realities, of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. After the second stage of insight has been reached, understanding investigates more and more these three characteristics. The third stage of insight is Investigation Knowledge or Comprehension by Group(si n Påli: sammasana ñåùa, Vis. XX, 6). It may seem that investigation knowledge is merely intellectual understanding, but it is a stage of direct understanding, of insight. At this stage paññå clearly realizes the succession of the nåmas and of the rúpas as they arise and fall away very rapidly. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65608 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila, natural development.... nilovg Dear Scott (and Howard), I am glad you continue tucking in, cuddling, loving your kids. You were just thinking aloud, and I am glad you did. This is a happy occasion to reflect more and correspond on the natural development of vipassana. Some people separate their meditation life and daily life. I know you do not and I really like to correspond more with you on this subject. When we write to a particular person on the list we always think of others as well. Your words were the condition for Howard to write an excellent post on balance, and his post is for whom it may concern. We should appreciate his kusala citta, and he need not feel confused at all. He can help many others, including Lodewijk. I sent our correspondance on to his computer. It is a hot topic between us all the time. So long as we are not sotaapanna we can get off balance. I am thinking of Connie's quote that metta is directed to persons and that wrong view of a person is near, we are trafficking with wrong views. I feel more and more that I have to start all over from the beginning, learning more about the nama and rupa that appear now. This is the way to begin to understand what anattaa really is, but we cannot expect to understand this soon. One of the synonyms of lobha is asa, hope, expectation. No expectations! I may repeat: anattaa, anattaa, but I do not really understand it, only the theory. Only by thinking. This causes me to start from the beginning. Misunderstandings about the practice are not imaginary, I also find this for myself. Only recently there was a question here about the Dhamma and music. Each time when we are in Bgk Kh Sujin asks me whether Lodewijk and I still play music. Of course, we do, it is part of our daily life. I do not think with each note: lobha, lobha. She tells the Thai audience about our music each time. I had questions before about reading magazines, and she explained: just lead your daily life normally, and right understanding can be developed in daily life. Nina. Op 25-nov-2006, om 5:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I wrote: "Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? Want to > > please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs?" #65609 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:54 pm Subject: Observer Participation & Quantum Buddhism... bhikkhu5 Friends: Is the Universe created by Observer Participation? 1: Is the Universe & all matter manifested by observing it? 2: Is mind determining transitions between wave & particle? 3: Are we participating in creating whatever we observe? The Blessed Buddha explained so already 2500 years ago... Recently it was experimentally shown by Quantum-Physics. Yet even today it is not really understood by the many! Main Reference for Entranced Perusal: Law without Law Princeton Professor of Physics: John Archibald Wheeler: Princeton University Press, 1983. Law without Law PDF 4.5Mb http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/wheeler_law_without_law.pdf or here: http://www.forizslaszlo.com/tudomany/wheeler_law_without_law.pdf References for those unfamiliar with Quantum Physics: The Double Slit Experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/reality/chap2.html Wheeler's Basic Delayed Choice Experiment: http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics Copenhagen interpretation: Niels Bohr & Werner Heisenberg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation Consciousness causes wavefunction collapse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_causes_collapse Does the Universe Exist if We're Not Looking? http://www.discover.com/issues/jun-02/features/featuniverse/ Therefore: It is not matter that creates mind (or brain). It is mind that creates matter that creates mind! Mind & matter are thus entangled & cannot be considered neither as separate nor as independent of each other... Objective observation independent of mind is impossible! Dig it friends! It's dizzy. It's not trivial! It is really radically revolutionizing... This world is mighty hall of Mirrors! Buddha once explained: Not participating by not observing: In the seen is merely the process of seeing & what is seen. In the heard is merely hearing & what is heard. In the sensed is merely sensing & what is sensed. In the thought is merely thinking & what is thought. So knowing, you will not be connected with that. So disconnected you will not be absorbed within that. So neither with that nor within that you are not by that! When there is no ‘you’ inferred or conjectured by that, then you are neither here, there, both, nor in between… On realizing the importance of this the Blessed Buddha furthermore exclaimed: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor diffusion find footing, there no sun, moon nor star ever shines. There is neither any light yet nor is there any darkness. When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure & pain & gone all beyond… Udana – Inspiration: I – 10 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65610 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila, natural development.... scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your two replies. I'll come in from this one: N: "I am glad you continue tucking in, cuddling, loving your kids. You were just thinking aloud, and I am glad you did. This is a happy occasion to reflect more and correspond on the natural development of vipassana. Some people separate their meditation life and daily life. I know you do not and I really like to correspond more with you on this subject." Okay, lets continue on this subject. Yes, I was thinking aloud. Sorry I was not clear. Some of these things defy conceptualisation. I think its good that I did try to get it down though. I do not separate 'meditation life and daily life', this is what is exciting about developing vipassana for me. This is what interacting with all of you is helping me learn. I guess my 'thinking aloud' may reflect, on screen as it were, what goes through my head (scary, man). I wonder about these things. I notice feelings and the acts they go along with (and vice-versa). While I'm with the kids sometimes the thought arises as to how these two young people are the embodiment of different kamma altogether, of how they are not 'my children' in that sense. I look at the cats and think it is the same for them. At moments like this I certainly don't think that I can therefore treat kids and cats the same, or get all impersonal or act different. I do try to be kind to cats as well, mind you. (I don't normally tuck them in though.) One can watch all the time. I notice that this entails a certain amount of concentration; that a certain calm can arise momentarily. N: "When we write to a particular person on the list we always think of others as well. Your words were the condition for Howard to write an excellent post on balance, and his post is for whom it may concern. We should appreciate his kusala citta, and he need not feel confused at all. He can help many others, including Lodewijk. I sent our correspondance on to his computer. It is a hot topic between us all the time." Yes, I've watched this 'hot topic' over the months. I do appreciate Howard and his excellent posts. And the balance is important. I did think though, as I read it, that one can't control this balance as if there were control knobs like on a stereo system. I suppose that this might be how study can condition other things. One has to know the field before ploughing it. N: "So long as we are not sotaapanna we can get off balance. I am thinking of Connie's quote that metta is directed to persons and that wrong view of a person is near, we are trafficking with wrong views." Please always feel free to point out when I seem off balance. It is important to me. N: "I feel more and more that I have to start all over from the beginning, learning more about the nama and rupa that appear now." When you say this then I accept it as the way to go. N: "This is the way to begin to understand what anattaa really is, but we cannot expect to understand this soon. One of the synonyms of lobha is asa, hope, expectation. No expectations! I may repeat: anattaa, anattaa, but I do not really understand it, only the theory. Only by thinking. This causes me to start from the beginning." Well, yes. Another thing oft repeated is, 'What about now?' This is, perhaps, what you might mean by saying 'start from the beginning.' It is always 'the beginning' from this perspective, if you know what I mean. Accepting anattaa is not necessarily understanding anattaa, as I think you are saying. N: "Misunderstandings about the practice are not imaginary, I also find this for myself...and she explained: just lead your daily life normally, and right understanding can be developed in daily life." This is true. Misunderstandings are real and so is right understanding, which is capable of development. I could say more because I'm not satisfied I'm getting something across but no matter. With loving kindness, Scott. #65611 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:34 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear connie, c: "...Most of all, smell. Warmth. Sound. Pleasant feeling. Trust. << ... for the tangible, for mental states >> the warning label on the exquisite Dhamasa"nga.ni, 1059: LOBHA... ...the mental states. mything him in the "stream of consciousness's" big old long lifetimes of stories..." Yeah. Beautiful. It is the moments and the remembering and the mything... That's why one hugs, since it is experienced. c: yesterday's idly recurring wonder: 'intention' as it seems ppl spk of it, say like, freewill, man, is just 'desire'." I noticed that as well and agree with you. c: "but no tongue or cheek intended: the children must have Illustrator. (this fickle one's real love lately)." I therefore must track it down. So many books so little mail service... c: "thanks for 'thinking aloud'" Same. Peace (devalued of course), man (generic neo-hippy idiom of course). S. #65613 From: connie Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:00 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo nichiconn Htoo was here ?!? - Running back to look: KH: ...Dhamma study is mentioned several times in the texts as a factor leading to enlightenment. And study does need to be put into practice, which is another factor leading to enlightenment. But there is no mention of formal practice anywhere in the texts. Why, in your opinion, is that the case? Take for example, the instructions given by Venerable Sujiva that you attached to this post. Why are there no instructions of that kind in the ancient texts? Htoo, who is both a formal meditator and a scrupulous student of the texts, has admitted to me that he has no answer. He can only suggest it was because Ananda, at the First Conference, inexplicably omitted to recite the suttas in which instructions were given. cp: Inexplicably omitted! I like that -- considering who's talking at the First Council: Illustrator v 8: After that he said 'Friends, let us rehearse the True Idea and Discipline before wrong ideas and wrong discipline are courted and right ideas and right discipline are flouted, before upholders of wrong ideas and wrong discipline become strong and upholders of right ideas and right discipline become weak' (Vin ii 285). The bhikkhus said 'Then, venerable sir, let the Elder convoke an assembly of bhikkhus'. Passing over many hundred, many thousand bhikkhus who were ordinary men, Stream-enterers, Once-returners, Non-returners, and Bare-insight-worker [Arahant] bhikkhus with taints exhausted, [all of whom were] bearers of the Scriptures consisting of the whole of the Teacher's nine-factored Dispensation, the Elder summoned one less than five hundred bhikkhus with taints exhausted who were bearers of all the classes of Scripture in the Tipi.taka, who had reached the Discriminations, who were very mighty, being many of them included by the Blessed One in the Foremost-in-this Discourse (A i 23f), and who were possessors of the three True Knowledges, and so on, with reference to which fact it is said 'Then the venerable Mahaa Kassapa convoked an assembly with one less than five hundred Arahants' (Vin ii 285). non-conspiratorially, with admiration, connie #65614 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:09 am Subject: Ana~n~naata~n~nassaami-ti-indriya.m scottduncan2 (Sorry about the mispost - my finger hit enter while trying to type the above mouthful title) Dear All, I was studying the indriyas and was surprised and interested by Ana~n~naata~n~nassaami-ti indriya - 'I shall come to know the unknown.' Viba"nga 220 (20): "...Therein what is contolling faculty of intial enlightenment? That which for the realisation of these states that are not known, not comprehended, not attained, not discerned, not realised, is wisdom, understanding, [investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, good, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power or wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom,] absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view, truth investigation-enlightenment-factor, path constituent, included in the path. This is called controlling faculty of initial enlightenment." Dhammasa"nga.ni 296: "What on that occasion is the faculty of believing, 'I shall come to know the unknown' (ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiitiindriya.m)? "The insight that makes for the realisation of those Truths that are unrealised, uncomprehended, unattained to, undiscerned, unknown - the insight that is understanding, research, searching the Truth, etc." Atthasaalinii, p. 293: "I shall come to know the unknown...Of them the faculty of believing 'I shall come to know the unknown' is the controlling faculty which has arisen by means of former reflection, in one who practises accordingly, 'I shall know the unknown deathless path, the doctrine of the Four Truths, in the continual stream of becoming, of unknown beginning." Visuddhimagga XVI, 3: "...the first is called the 'I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown' faculty because it arises in the intial stage [of the stream-entry path moment] in one who has entered on the way thus 'I shall come to know the deathless state, or the Dhamma of the Four [Noble] Truths, not known, and because it carries the meaning of faculty (rulership)..." What is this? Sincerely, Scott. #65615 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:20 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi Ken and all > But there is no mention > of formal practice anywhere in the texts. Funny, I was thinking of this statement tonight as I read the commentary to the satipatthana sutta - about 4 or 5 pages describing in the most minute of detail the daily routine of bhikkhus, what they should ideally do before "seated and ambulatory meditation", during, after, how often they should do "seated and ambulatory meditation", just how to sit with the legs folded just so when doing "seated meditation", just how to walk when doing "ambulatory meditation." I guess it isn't formal because they aren't wearing tuxedos or something like that. I just woke up from a nap so am feeling cranky and Naomi didn't bring me any chocolate home from work so I am feeling cranky and it's cold and we don't have any kerosene for the heaters so I'm feeling cranky but the above statement is ...ahem...(abstention in process) ...due for deeper consideration. Seriously, we can say that worldlings today are not in the position to meditate, that there is too much greed and ignorance at work in today's world for meditation to be helpful, that those in the Buddha's day had the suitable wisdom for meditation to be helpful, but to suggest that there is not detailed directions about how to meditation in the tipitaka and commentaries is...ahem......a statement which leads one to aspire to deeper mutual reflection. Good night. I'm going to follow the Buddha's instructions, for better or worse. Phil #65616 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila, natural development.... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 11/25/06 3:32:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Your words were the condition for Howard to write an > excellent post on balance, and his post is for whom it may concern. > We should appreciate his kusala citta, and he need not feel confused > at all. He can help many others, including Lodewijk. I sent our > correspondance on to his computer. It is a hot topic between us all > the time. > ====================== Nina, thank you. :-) I am pleased to hear that you think my post, written due to my misunderstanding Scott, was not a waste and that it might be of value to some. With metta, Howard #65617 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ana~n~naata~n~nassaami nilovg Dear Scott: you were studying indriyas: 3 Supermundane Faculties, lokuttara indriyas: * 20. the assurance: 'I shall know what I did not yet know!': aññÄ?tañ-ñassÄ?mÄ«t' indriya * 21. the faculty of highest knowledge: aññindriya * 22. the faculty of him who knows: aññÄ?tÄ?vindriya. ----- 20: arises at Path moment of sotaapanna. He comes to know what was not known before. It is the first time that nibbaana is experienced. From then on he is a different person, no longer a worldling but an ariyan disciple. 21: arises on reaching the fruition of the sotaapanna. 22: arises on reaching the fruition of the arahat, there is nothing more to be done. As to Ana~n~na: not knowing, ignorance. Overcome by a~n~na. See Vis. just posted by Larry, I have been at it. Nina. Op 25-nov-2006, om 14:43 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I was studying the indriyas and came across something that seemed > quite compelling, but I don't know much about it: Ana~n~na #65618 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:32 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/25/06 9:24:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Good night. I'm going to follow the Buddha's instructions, for > better or worse. > ==================== I salute you! :-) With metta, Howard #65619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ana~n~naata~n~nassaami-ti-indriya.m nilovg Dear Scott, see my post that crossed yours. anything else I could add? I see you have Atthasalini. As to pa~n`naa see II, 467: I read insight into cessation (nibbaana) only in hearing, intuition and reflection. I think contemplation is not necessary, it is directly experienced. As to lobha, see II, p.467-472. The creper is good: in the sense of enveloping. Visattika: it is when we read family, ususally it refers to a family of benefactors for a monk. He becomes greedy. Nina. Op 25-nov-2006, om 15:09 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > "...the first is called the 'I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown' faculty > because it arises in the intial stage [of the stream-entry path > moment] in one who has entered on the way thus 'I shall come to know > the deathless state, or the Dhamma of the Four [Noble] Truths, not > known, and because it carries the meaning of faculty (rulership)..." > > What is this? #65620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila, natural development.... nilovg Hi Howard, At times it can be helpful not think of persons but of conditions. Who writes to whom? Conditions. Lodewijk found it very valuable what you wrote and so did I. There may also be others unknown to us. what is done with kusala citta is never wasted. Nina. Op 25-nov-2006, om 15:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, thank you. :-) I am pleased to hear that you think my post, > written due to my misunderstanding Scott, was not a waste and that > it might be of > value to some. #65621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] Ananda. / Htoo nilovg Dear Connie, thanks for all your observations. Where is our good friend Htoo who is busy with daily life? --------- More quotes from Kh Sujin's Perfection of Truthfulness, about Ananda at the Council: < Consequently, in order to show his own discipleship, he said: ‘Evaÿ me suttaÿ. Ekaÿ samayaÿ bhagavå Såvatthiyaÿ viharati Jetavane Anåthapiùèikassa åråme...’ which means: Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Såvatthí in Jeta’s Wood, Anåthapiùèika’s Park...” These words were spoken by the venerable Ånanda, more than twothousand and fivehundred years ago. If we today just hear the words, “Thus have I heard”, we are impressed by the thoughts of the venerable Ånanda who on the occasion of the first rehearsal made it clear that he was only a disciple. That is why he said, “Thus have I heard”. He did not speak his own words, because he was not the Exalted One. He was only a disciple and had heard these words from the Exalted One. When Buddhists hear the words, “Thus have I heard”, even after more than twothousand and fivehundred years have passed, enthusiasm and joy can arise because they have an opportunity to hear these words again. Thus, they can consider the Buddha’s teachings when he was dwelling in the Jeta Grove or at other places. We read further on: “Meanwhile the five hundred Arahants and many thousand deities applauded the venerable Ånanda, saying “Good (sådhu), good”, while there was a great earth-tremor with a rain of various kinds of flowers falling from the sky and many other manifested marvels, and in many deities a sense of urgency arose (with the thought) ‘What we heard in the Blessed One’s presence is now reproduced in his absence too!’ ” The Buddha had finally passed away and the arahats who were present at the first Council for the rehearsal of the teachings had heard these words before. However, even though the words they heard were spoken in the past and they would not hear them any more in the presence of the Blessed One, there was yet an opportunity to hear the Dhamma again. This fact can be recollected with reverence to the Triple Gem by all listeners today. Although these events occurred a long time ago, each time we hear the Dhamma we can see its benefit and we can understand that the accumulation of kusala in the past is the condition for the kusala vipåka which is hearing the Dhamma again in this life. Ånanda consoled people who were disappointed at not seeing the Blessed One, assuring them that this was not a teaching of a dead teacher, but that the very Dhamma Vinaya was their teacher. By the words, evaÿ me suttaÿ, thus have I heard, the venerable Ånanda wanted to console the Buddhists in times to come, who may feel dismay that they cannot see the Buddha in person. However, we should remember that what we hear is not the teaching of a dead teacher, but that the Dhamma Vinaya is now our teacher.. Nina. Op 25-nov-2006, om 15:00 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > the Elder summoned one less than five hundred bhikkhus with > taints exhausted who were bearers of all the classes of Scripture > in the > Tipi.taka, who had reached the Discriminations, who were very mighty, > being many of them included by the Blessed One in the Foremost-in-this > Discourse (A i 23f), and who were possessors of the three True > Knowledges, > and so on, with reference to which fact it is said 'Then the venerable > Mahaa Kassapa convoked an assembly with one less than five hundred > Arahants' (Vin ii 285). #65622 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:57 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... rjkjp1 Dear Nina I must admit I am perplexed by the tightrope analogy you and Howard use.. Your understanding is deeper than almost anyone I have ever known, so could you explain more. As I see it to understand anatta, even at the intellectual level is kusala of a profound degree.. How could it be something to warn about. One who is developing anatta should - because of the degree of kusala involoved- be naturally improving in their relations with others, including their children. We don't become less warm becuase of anatta sanna- it is not like that.. Thus why do we need to worry about walking a tightrope, as if we shouldn't see anatta too much.. I think quite the opposite, we need every encouragement to see anatta in various ways as often and as deeply as possible. Anatta, if it is not understood, sounds cold but one who knows anatta also knows that lobha and attachment are natural elements that arise, life becomes easier, spontaneous. . with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott and Howard, > I was hoping Howard would come in, I thought so much of the tightrope > and the balance. I take these things very much to heart. > Howard expressed it all so well. Like this: were one, in order to avoid "imperfection", > scuttle the "loving", the hugging, the tucking in, and the various other > attempts at providing the means to benefit the little ones.> > #65623 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:34 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nidive Hi RobertK & Nina, > I must admit I am perplexed by the tightrope analogy you and Howard > use.. > We don't become less warm becuase of anatta sanna- it is not like > that.. Thus why do we need to worry about walking a tightrope, as if > we shouldn't see anatta too much.. I think quite the opposite, we > need every encouragement to see anatta in various ways as often and > as deeply as possible. I also wonder about the tightrope analogy. > > I was hoping Howard would come in, I thought so much of the > > tightrope and the balance. I take these things very much to heart. > > Howard expressed it all so well. Like this: > tragic were one, in order to avoid "imperfection", > > scuttle the "loving", the hugging, the tucking in, and the various > > other attempts at providing the means to benefit the little ones. Yet, I don't see the Buddha doing all "the 'loving', the hugging, the tucking in and the various other attempts ..." for his son Rahula. That would only be a sign of emotional attachment. Also, any such expression of 'love' would only cause Rahula to have emotional attachment to his father the Buddha. Even if the Buddha did not have attachment for his son Rahula, such an expression of 'love' would only be detrimental for Rahula. Any action that would cause the growth of emotional attachment cannot be the action of a Buddha. Instead of showering such 'emotional love' on Rahula, the Buddha opted to teach Rahula the precious Dhamma. He calls this his inheritance to Rahula. Regards, Swee Boon #65624 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Nina) - Please excuse me for butting in with my understanding on this. In a message dated 11/25/06 11:01:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Nina > I must admit I am perplexed by the tightrope analogy you and Howard > use.. > Your understanding is deeper than almost anyone I have ever known, > so could you explain more. > As I see it to understand anatta, even at the intellectual level is > kusala of a profound degree.. How could it be something to warn > about. One who is developing anatta should - because of the degree > of kusala involoved- be naturally improving in their relations with > others, including their children. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Anatta understood correctly can ONLY have good consequences. It is kusala entirely, with no down side. But any concept can be misunderstood. I recall the Buddha having spoken of grasping a snake improperly (from the tail instead of below the head), and thereby getting bitten. (Ah, yes, MN 22) -------------------------------------------- > We don't become less warm becuase of anatta sanna- it is not like > that.. Thus why do we need to worry about walking a tightrope, as if > we shouldn't see anatta too much.. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: The tightrope walk is not between anatta and atta, for the first is reality and the second total illusion, but between two extremes of wrong understanding of the matter of existence (as in the Kaccayangotta Sutta). When one is walking the tightrope without tending to one side or the other, it is right understanding that is in effect, and it is anatta that is then and there properly grasped. The Buddha pointed out the extreme wrong views of existence and nonexistence, and presented his teaching of no-self and dependent origination as the middle way. --------------------------------------------- I think quite the opposite, we > > need every encouragement to see anatta in various ways as often and > as deeply as possible. > Anatta, if it is not understood, sounds cold but one who knows > anatta also knows that lobha and attachment are natural elements > that arise, life becomes easier, spontaneous. . ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Exactly: "if it is not understood". No-self doesn't mean "nothing at all". The middle way is not a nihilism, and the middle way, if not misunderstood, leads, as you say, to a life that is easier and spontaneous, and to an increase in warmth, not a decrease. ------------------------------------------------ > > with respect > Robert > ======================= With metta, Howard #65625 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 11/25/06 11:43:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Yet, I don't see the Buddha doing all "the 'loving', the hugging, the > tucking in and the various other attempts ..." for his son Rahula. > > That would only be a sign of emotional attachment. > ======================== My parents hugged me, tucked me in, and loved me unconditionally. I am "free" of them as regards attachment, but I am left with a great love and appreciation for them and with the fondest of memories. My wife and I raised our two sons as Scott raises his children - with warmth, loving, hugging, and tucking in, and with unconditional acceptance and respect. They are now independent, loving, very well balanced, and beautifully compassionate adults. My older son is raising his two daughters in the same way, and my sweet younger son, just married, will surely do the same. I wouldn't have it otherwise. With metta, Howard #65626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:58 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 132. nilovg Dear friends, Thus, in this classification there are eighteen elements in all. The five elements which are the five senses are rúpa and the five elements which are the sense objects experienced through the sense- doors are rúpa as well. The five elements which are the dvi-pañca- vi~n~naa.nas, experiencing these objects, are nåma. There are two cittas which are seeing-consciousness-element since seeing- consciousness is either kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka. It is the same with the other pañca-vi~n~naa.nas. Thus there are five pairs of citta which are collectively called the pañca-vi~n~naa.na-dhåtu. The element which is mind-element or mano-dhåtu is nåma. Mano-dhåtu comprises the pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, five-door-adverting- consciousness, and the two types of sampaìicchana-citta, receiving- consciousness, which are kusala vipåka and akusala vipåka. Thus, three kinds of citta are mano-dhåtu. Dhamma-dhåtu comprises cetasikas, the subtle rúpas (sukhuma rúpas) and nibbåna. Thus, dhamma-dhåtu comprises both nåma and rúpa. Dhamma- dhåtu is not identical with dhammåramma.na, mind-objects. Cittas are included in dhammårammaùa but not in dhamma-dhåtu. Cittas have been classified separately as different dhåtus. Concepts, which are included in dhammårammaùa, are not classified as elements, because concepts are not paramattha dhammas; only paramattha dhammas are classified as elements. Mind-consciousness-element, the mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhåtu, is nåma. Mind- consciousness-element includes all cittas except the dvi-pañca- vi~n~naa.nas and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind- element, mano-dhåtu. For example, santíraùa-citta (the investigating- consciousness), mano-dvåråvajjana-citta (the mind-door- advertingconsciousness), and cittas performing the function of javana such as lobha-múla-citta and also bhavanga-citta are included in mind- consciousness-element. Mind-element includes cittas which can experience an object through one of the five sense-doors, whereas mind-consciousness-element includes cittas which can experience an object through six doors as well as cittas which are not dependent on any doorway 1). -------- 1) The rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) and the dying-consciousness. ****** Nina. #65627 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:04 pm Subject: Letters on Vipassana I, 5. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Fours, First Fifty, Ch I, par. 6) about four kinds of people: a person of small learning who doesn't profit thereby, a person of small learning who profits thereby, a person of wide learning who doesn't profit thereby and a person of wide learning who profits thereby. We read: In this case, monks, a certain person has small learning in Sutta, Geyya, Veyyåkaraùa, Gåthå, Udåna, Itivuttaka, Jåtaka, Abbhutadhammå and Vedalla 1); yet, as of that small learning he knows not the letter, knows not the meaning, he does not live in accordance with Dhamma. That, monks, is how a person with small learning profits not thereby. And in what way, monks, is a person of small learning profited thereby? In this case, monks, a certain person has small learning in Sutta... ; but, as of that small learning he knows both the letter and the meaning, he lives in accordance with Dhamma. That, monks, is how a person of small learning profits thereby. We then read about the person with wide learning who does not profit thereby and the person of wide learning who profits thereby. Of these two kinds of persons the same is said as in the case of the person with small learning who does not profit thereby and the person with small learning who profits thereby. According to the commentary, the "Manorathapúraùí", the person with small learning who lives in accordance with the Dhamma, who profits thereby, has eradicated the åsavas. The same is true for the person with wide learning who profits thereby. Thus, when one studies the Dhamma and develops satipa.t.thåna one can become enlightened and finally attain arahatship. Alan Weller wrote: “The last few weeks I have been very busy and have had little time for reading or writing. The sutta about profiting even from small learning is very useful. I often find myself wanting to read or study and I am forgetful of the reality which is there at that moment. We all need lots of details because defilements are so crafty to move us away from the present moment.” People may have misunderstandings about satipatthåna, they doubt whether it can be developed also during the time they are working. These misunderstandings arise because they confuse sati with concentration. They believe that they should concentrate on realities in order to be aware of them. We should know that there can be wrong concentration, arising with akusala citta. Concentration is a cetasika, a mental factor , which arises with each citta. Its function is to focus on one object at a time. Concentration does not last, it falls away immediately together with the citta it accompanies. If one thinks that one has to concentrate on nåma and rúpa there is thinking with attachment. One tries to control sati but that is impossible. When there are conditions for the arising of right mindfulness and right understanding, there is also right concentration without the need to think of concentration. ------------ 1) A classification of the Dhamma as suttas without and with verses, expository matter including Abhidhamma, Birth stories, marvels, etc. ********* Nina. #65628 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ana~n~naata~n~nassaami scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you. What does this mean? N: "From then on he is a different person, no longer a worldling but an ariyan disciple." Different in what ways? For example, does the difference manifest itself in any way? Sincerely, Scott. #65629 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:48 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch Hi all, As usual, I am having trouble understanding other people's conversations. Are some people thinking that I said that Htoo said that Ananda did not recite suttas? If so, I would like to correct that misunderstanding. If not, please ignore this and carry on as you were. :-) No, Htoo has never said the Buddha did not recite suttas. Nor has anybody that I know of. Htoo did, on one occasion, concede my point that the Tipitaka contained no instructions for formal vipassana meditation. He did not concede that the Buddha never gave such instructions. So, how did he explain their omission from the Tipitaka? He couldn't explain it, but he did make the logical observation that Ananda must not have recited those instructions at the First Council. Ken H #65630 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:01 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch D'oh! A correction to my correction: > No, Htoo has never said the Buddha did not recite suttas. No, Htoo has never said Ananda did not recite suttas. > Ken H > Idiot! #65631 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:29 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... philofillet Hi all A bit off topice, but this reminds me of something I heard - the etymology of "Rahula" - why the Buddha named him that. (He was born on the night the Buddha left the householder's life.) A meaning that gets at the way the Buddha thought his attachment for Rahula could obstruct his path. Does anyone recall it? Phil > > Yet, I don't see the Buddha doing all "the 'loving', the hugging, the > tucking in and the various other attempts ..." for his son Rahula. > #65632 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:37 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nidive Hi Howard, > My parents hugged me, tucked me in, and loved me unconditionally. > I am "free" of them as regards attachment, but I am left with a > great love and appreciation for them and with the fondest of > memories. My wife and I raised our two sons as Scott raises his > children - with warmth, loving, hugging, and tucking in, and with > unconditional acceptance and respect. They are now independent, > loving, very well balanced, and beautifully compassionate adults. > My older son is raising his two daughters in the same way, and my > sweet younger son, just married, will surely do the same. > I wouldn't have it otherwise. Thank you for sharing your kind thoughts. But I don't believe that were you to pass away right now, there would not arise a single tinge of sadness and depression amongst your sons or grandchildren or wife. I also don't believe that if your wife or one of your sons or grandchildren were to pass away right now, there would not arise a single tinge of sadness and depression in you. The understanding of anatta at the level of sotapanna is not even sufficient to overcome emotional attachment, much less a worldling in training. The Buddha teaches the overcoming of all dukkha, even a tiny tinge of sadness and depression. Suggested Readings: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn21/sn21.002.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.014.nypo.html Regards, Swee Boon #65633 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. philofillet Hi Nina (and Howard) and all > it is about the finding a balance between the conventional world and > the world of paramattha dhammas: > maintain metta, karuna, and mudita without reifying persons is to > walk a thin, taut, > tightrope. The trick is not to fall off, to the right (the love is > present > but perverted to attachment by self-making) or to the left (destroyed > is belief > in the existence of people in any sense, and along with that metta, > karuna, > and mudita). The norm for falling off is to fall to the right. If one > must fall, > it is the better way. A fall to the right is a fall to the center of > samsara. > A fall to the left is a fall into a hell realm. Hmmm. Interesting. The hell realm part doesn't sound guaranteed - a lack of progress sounds more likely for those who are too eager to understand anatta tout de suite, here and now - but certainly more natural to fall in the other direction, in the direction of personal attachments. We need to understand that we *will* fall in that direction, often, repeatedly. And the return to the tightrope (I think balance beam might be better because if it is too hard to keep one's balance there must be too much trying) is a gentle and kind of beautiful process, involving a lot of patience. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Directly knowing the world as it is, the insight mentioned above will > not bring with it ill effects.It will conduce only to good. But merely > adopting the "no creature" view as *belief* can lead to perverse > attitudes towards > others.> > ------------- PH: Yes, I think it is better if there are moments of insight into anatta rather than insisting that there must be "detachment from the beginning" as Acharn Sujin says. That sounds like trying to have too much too soon, if you ask me. The moments of detachment will come or they won't - insisting on having it from the beginning sounds - ironically enough - like a self-motivated project. That's the way it feels to me this morning. That changes day to day as accumulated understanding and various conditions rise and fall this way and that. > As to B B's remarks on personal edification: all parts of the > Tipitaka are good, and it depends on a person's disposition what > helps him at a particular moment. You used to find helpful: S. IV: on > Fire, what is on fire: the eye, etc. > Perhaps you may now be more inclined to Gradual Sayings. Still obsessively interested in the salayatana samyutta, esp. SN 35, and especially those suttas that deal with guarding the sense doors. My interest in appamada ties in with that - heedfulness is at the center of guarding the sense doors. Of course there must be a certain degree of understanding as well. Willfull heedfulness without any understanding is a recipe for disaster. Or the > Middle Length Sayings: For example the tortoise who has to put its > head into the hole of a yoke and comes to the surface once in > innumerable years. So difficult it is to be born a human. I love this sea turtle. I was thinking of him yesterday, bobbing out there at sea. There was metta, a wish that he finds his way. THe same kind of metta I find arising for all of us, with dhammas burning with hatred, greed and delusion. We are all that turtle! We should > not waste this moment and develop understanding of the dhamma > appearing now, we have no time to waste as Scott said. Ph: Yes, but wanting to understand that one dhamma right now is dangerous, I think,for me, at least. Understanding (panna) is not sharp enough for that. For now there is more interest in seeing how mental situations (akusala proliferation, thoughts snowballing etc.) happen. That is fascinating enough, and sutiable object for attention, I find. Phil #65634 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:05 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi Ken Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the Buddha didn't urge his followers to meditate. (ie. by sitting at the root of a tree etc with legs folded, spine erect etc.) There sometimes seems to be a denial that there was such an exhortation from the Buddha. In one talk, when Jon asks Acharn Sujin about the "there are the roots of trees ...(snip) meditate or you will regret it" verse, she says "The Buddha pointed out." No, the Buddha didn't "point out", he exhorted. Whether modern teachers and students meditate with proper motivation and understanding is another matter, one that I still question as I get into meditation. But no question whatsoever that the Buddha urged his follow to do meditate, which does not mean contemplate or reflect in daily life. (Though these are also deeply helpful.) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi all, > > As usual, I am having trouble understanding other people's > conversations. #65635 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotaapanna. lbidd2 Hi Nina ad all, I guess Htoo did send this direct to me. The "sender" is info@.... Here's what he had to say about doubt and the sotapanna. Larry ------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: Hi Nina and Swee Boon, I still don't understand why doubt concerning the dhamma ceases. Many people have doubts about kamma, rebirth, nibbana, and the many details of abhidhamma, not to mention doubt Larry ---------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and all, Doubt can still be there in sotapanna if the doubt is just a doubt and it is not Viiciikicchaa. But sotapannas are all those who overcome the doubt of naama-ruupa. Yogii may see by knowledge this is naama and this is ruupa. But if this knowledge is not beyond sotapatti-magga he will not over the true doubt. With respect, Htoo Naing #65636 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 11/25/06 6:45:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >My parents hugged me, tucked me in, and loved me unconditionally. > >I am "free" of them as regards attachment, but I am left with a > >great love and appreciation for them and with the fondest of > >memories. My wife and I raised our two sons as Scott raises his > >children - with warmth, loving, hugging, and tucking in, and with > >unconditional acceptance and respect. They are now independent, > >loving, very well balanced, and beautifully compassionate adults. > >My older son is raising his two daughters in the same way, and my > >sweet younger son, just married, will surely do the same. > >I wouldn't have it otherwise. > > Thank you for sharing your kind thoughts. > > But I don't believe that were you to pass away right now, there would > not arise a single tinge of sadness and depression amongst your sons > or grandchildren or wife. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. Their not being arahants, that should darn well be expected. --------------------------------------- > > I also don't believe that if your wife or one of your sons or > grandchildren were to pass away right now, there would not arise a > single tinge of sadness and depression in you. --------------------------------------- Howard: Again, of course that is so. If their were not such sadness, I would have to be mentally ill, or my so called love for them would be a lie. I just read of a 64-year-old grandmother who died as a Palestinian suicide bomber, the oldest so far. She did that, slightly wounding two Israeli soldiers in the process, having lost a child and a grandchild to Israeli (defensive) fire. I grieved for her when I read this. Would I not then grieve for those close to me? --------------------------------------- > > The understanding of anatta at the level of sotapanna is not even > sufficient to overcome emotional attachment, much less a worldling in > training. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I would expect that to be so. ---------------------------------------- > > The Buddha teaches the overcoming of all dukkha, even a tiny tinge of > sadness and depression. --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. He teaches the way to arahantship, at which point there would be no sadness. -------------------------------------- > > Suggested Readings: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn21/sn21.002.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.014.nypo.html > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ======================== With metta, Howard P.S. Until I am an arahant, attachments will remain. So be it. Meanwhile, at the price of grief, I won't try to simulate lack of dukkha by withholding love and hardening my heart. #65637 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:02 pm Subject: Cosmology and The Two Extremes nidive Hi All, The two extremes are often mentioned in DSG. From my understanding, the two extremes refers only to viewpoint positions with regard to a self or personal identity. If I am not wrong, some do propose an extension of the two extremes to conditioned paramattha dhammas. According to them, to 'reify' (whatever that means) conditioned paramattha dhammas is eternalism/ substantialism, and the 'thorough ceasing' of conditioned paramattha dhammas is annihilationism/nihilism. The Middle Path, according to them, is not a 'reification' of conditioned paramattha dhammas, nor of a 'thorough ceasing' of conditioned paramattha dhammas. Nibbana, according to them, is to be found 'somewhere in the middle' of these two extremes of conditioned paramattha dhammas. Yet, from my (quite careful) readings of various suttas, I have never seen the Buddha applying the two extremes to conditioned paramattha dhammas. I present two suttas. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.048.than.html "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman. " "Then is everything a Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle ... -------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Cosmology', according to my understanding, is just a complex mind game revolving around a self and not conditioned paramattha dhammas. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.017.than.html "'The one who acts is the one who experiences [the result of the act]' amounts to the eternalist statement, 'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.' 'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences' amounts to the annihilationist statement, 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other- made.' Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle ... -------------------------------------------------------------------- According to my understanding, the above two extremes revolve around a personal identity and not conditioned paramattha dhammas. What are your thoughts? Active participation is welcomed. Regards, Swee Boon #65638 From: "sukinder" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:45 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sukinderpal Hi Howard, (Scott and Robert), I realize that there have been many responses following this. However, I've only just read this one and feel compelled to make some comments, if redundant in any way, please don't mind. And if I'm off the mark, please forgive me. ================================== Scott: > One need not look too hard to see these every day. And with others, > and I find this most with the young others who share my home, these > are very much aspects of what one could mistakenly call "compassion" > when caring for them. Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? > Want to please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs? ------------------------------------------- Howard: The "same" actions may or may not be really the same. It depends on the underlying sankharas, especially intentions. And from moment to moment these may shift from wholesome to defiled and back again. As we look within with right intention and increasingly objective perception, we may learn to distinguish. But until we are advanced ariyans, should we not just "do our best"? Sukin: I would rather put it this way, "we do what we do, conditioned by accumulations", so too the Ariyan. Why wait to be one before there can be understanding? I know you are not saying that we should, however as I have mentioned before, you seem to be coming from the side of justifying "conventional action" over developing understanding! And this too, giving "intention" priority over any intellectual understanding that may arise pointing to the possibility that this very intention may be rooted in anything but kusala. I think I'm a relatively bad father, realizing too late that I am not cut to raise a family besides being generally selfish. However I grow more and more attached to my children, but at no time do I consider this in any way good. I also know this easily conditions not only aversion, but also a general blindness in my interaction with them and anyone else who happen to come by. Sure, there will be some kusala moments and even some wise reflection, but this is in spite of the akusala. I will act as I do, which will result in my kids being raised and given education etc., so is there therefore a need to encourage this? Does lobha need encouragement? Moments of understanding are rare; this is what should be valued. ============================= Howard: In any case, IMO, it would be tragic were one, in order to avoid "imperfection", scuttle the "loving", the hugging, the tucking in, and the various other attempts at providing the means to benefit the little ones. Sukin: I hug and kiss my children a lot, pure attachment in my case! I don't think any one here, especially Scott, has ever said that such activities ought to be avoided until "perfection" has been achieved. That would be the other extreme. As I said, it's not about encouraging or discouraging any conditioned, conventional behavior, but about "understanding" realities. ==================================== Scott: > I suspect that these overt actions might not appear different at the > surface were they to be the manifestation of true compassion, but I > also suspect that this wholesome dhamma may not arise that often as I > "love" the children. -------------------------------------------- Howard: We are not saints, so we shouldn't expect the actions of a saint in ourself. Sukin: Again, I don't think Scott is suggesting being idealistic. I doubt he would like to compare with a Sotapanna, less so to emulate one. ============================ Scott: > Can it arise that I see the children as manifestations of their own > kamma? Can it arise that I see them as condition for the arising of > wholesome dhammas such as compassion? -------------------------------------------- Howard: These insights would be useful. It would be excellent that they arise. But they should arise along with even strengthened metta, karuna, and mudita, and not with a heart-numbing de-personalization. Sukin: Uppekha too can be developed, and its object is different from the other brahmavihaaras, why this fear about the heart growing numb? ================================= Howard: That is the danger is grasping anatta wrongly - a de-personalization that dries out and hardens the heart. Sukin: Should we not then consider what *is* the correct understanding of anatta? Howard, you keep bringing this up, this I feel is because you perceive that the way K. Sujin and some of us consider the subject, is wrong. So do you want to discuss this or otherwise say more of what is in your mind? ===================================== Scott: > Can I see them as no different, > in the end, from any other so-called being as an object which might > condition the arising of wholesome dhammas? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: ARE they no different, and should they be seen as no different? Sukin: Again, I don't think Scott is being idealistic here. He's just pointing out to the fact for example, that, "metta" can't be truly metta when the object is "my" children, friend, and so on. =============================== Howard: Are they but conditions for you, and should they be seen only as such? Are they but a means to your end? Are human beings *utter* fictions, *fully* unreal, or are they simply empty of existence *as* unitary, self-existent, independent entities? Sukin: First, you seem to be saying that intellectually understanding visible object as visible object and any conceptual construct which follows as such, should be disregarded and one should instead take "human beings" more seriously, in the hope that other levels of kusala might arise? Second, what is the meaning of the idea that "humans are simply empty of existence *as* unitary, self-existent, independent entities". You seem to want there to be more than just one citta arising and completely falling away, but I may be wrong. =============================== Howard: Reality, as I see it, is of a middle-way sort, but our mind has trouble walking a middle-way tightrope. We almost always tend towards loss of balance. The Dhamma is like the pole the tightrope walker holds that helps keep him/her balanced. At all times we need to closely monitor the mind to see which way it is leaning and to pull ourselves back to the middle. Sukin: The very idea of "walking a middle-way tightrope" could be encouraging of "self view". There may be understanding one moment and not the next, the middle-way is a conditioned momentary reality. Better I think to talk about conditioned dhammas, than to appeal to 'persons walking on tightropes'. =============================== Howard: In the Kaccayangotta Sutta, the Buddha says the following about the conventional person or mind-body ("the world"): "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." Sukin: Thinking in terms of 'existence - non-existence' may be unnecessary compared to consideration about what is "real" at any given moment. This implies that there are objects of experience which are *not* real. So are humans real? -========================== Scott: > I can remember how it must have been a similar discussion that > elicited the tongue-in-cheek call for the immediate removal of these > children from my care for reasons of what seemed to be coldness due to > considerations of anatta. I know I "love" these children. The Dhamma > shows that this "love" is not often compassion. This is hard to bear. > It shakes the foundations. But of what? Only those of the > scarecrow's house, I'd say. ------------------------------------- Howard: The realizing that the mind moves from kusala to akusala and is less than perfect should be celebrated, not feared. It is fact that we are extremely imperfect. Were we not to realize that imperfection we would be seriously lost - we would be in a desperate situation without knowing it. To be aware that our (conventional) motives are mixed is *good*. That awareness is the necessary first step to improvement. Sukin: What if the focus was on the very fact of "ignorance" instead of hoping and thinking that our conventional motives are mixed? Metta, Sukin. #65639 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nidive Hi Howard, > P.S. Until I am an arahant, attachments will remain. So be it. > Meanwhile, at the price of grief, I won't try to simulate lack of > dukkha by withholding love and hardening my heart. Not that I am telling you to harden your heart, but the Buddha's 'expression of unworldly love' for his son Rahula by teaching him gently and patiently the Dhamma is worth emulating, I think. I think it is a 'privilege' to be born the son of a Buddha. Regards, Swee Boon #65640 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:20 pm Subject: Re: Stressing sila dhammanando_... Hi Phil, > A bit off topice, but this reminds me of something I heard - the > etymology of "Rahula" - why the Buddha named him that. (He was born on > the night the Buddha left the householder's life.) A meaning that gets > at the way the Buddha thought his attachment for Rahula could obstruct > his path. Does anyone recall it? Yes. After being informed of his son's birth by Suddhodana, the Bodhisatta resolves to leave the household life immediately, exclaiming: "A fetter is born, a bond is born! (raahu jaato, bandhana.m jaata.m) ... Just as the glory of the solar and lunar mansions is obscured by the asura king Raahu, even so a peril has arisen to my renunciation and going forth." (Apadaana Atthakathaa 325). Best wishes, Dhammanando #65641 From: connie Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:30 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] Ananda. / Htoo nichiconn Dear Nina, Nina: Where is our good friend Htoo who is busy with daily life? Connie: In our thoughts/hearts. Then gone again. When I read a passage and recall "Htoo" he is found in appreciation for his generosity. Usually, if he pops up out of nowhere for me, it's in my truck... a conversation about understanding shifting gears, like Ananda's "in that interval". Sometimes "Htoo" is a reminder that I'm prone to babble foolishness - like in your quote from Perfection of Truthfulness where Ananda "did not speak his own words, because he was not the Exalted One. He was only a disciple..." Only!! << Gotama's disciple, saying In such manner 'Thus I heard', Dissipates all lack of faith And swells faith in the Master's word. >> from Illustrator v 42. peace, connie #65642 From: connie Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:30 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo nichiconn Hi Ken H, Not a single Bare insight-worker / "non-meditator" in the whole group of 500 Cream of the Crop Arahants making up the First Council... so yeah, why wouldn't these guys think to add (sorry, bias!) - include - formal meditation instructions in the True Dhamma and Discipline? Just agreeing with you - I think. I thought the point in my own words rude so kept it to myself, but it was that as far as I know, "Meditators" sure do like to talk about how it's done. Of course, most folks aren't proper Masters now, are they? To my thinking, there's great meditation instruction in this sutta quoted in the Vism under Recollection of the Law (Path of Purity, p249): << ...As has been said: "Brahmin, one who is lustful, overcome by lust, whose mind is posessed by lust, meditates harm to himself, meditates harm to others, meditates harm to both. He experiences mental pain and grief. When lust is put away he does not meditate harm to himself, does not meditate harm to others, does not meditate harm to both. He does not experience mental pain and grief. Thus, brahmin, is the Law thoroughly seen". {footnote: Or 'seen here-and-now'. Anguttara i,156} peace, connie #65643 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:49 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Ken > > Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the > Buddha didn't urge his followers to meditate. (ie. by sitting at the > root of a tree etc with legs folded, spine erect etc.) Hi Phil, No, you didn't misunderstand me; it was another point (about Ananda) that I thought might have been misunderstood. I'm just getting changed to go out, but I look forward to talking to you later about formal meditation (as distinct from bhavana, which the Buddha really did teach). Ken H #65644 From: "Raghunath Awachar" Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:51 pm Subject: Vipassana raghunath_aw... Hi everybody I want to know about vipassana in detail. How it was taught by Buddha and how it is different from other meditation practices.Can anybody help me. regards ruawachar #65645 From: "Andrew Leong" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:25 am Subject: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN ascleong Dear Friends in the Dhamma, Seeking your kind assistance to e-disseminate this information below on the 3-month Ceremonies and Dhamma talks to commemorate the Passing away of the Venerable Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda Nayaka Maha Thera. The Buddhist Maha Vihara's e-mail server is down for the last one week and the BMV is not able to get it up despite various efforts. This e-mail was supposed to be sent out last week, but we now seek your kind support to e-disseminate it to your friends and members where possible. We are not able to e-disseminate to those who we normally do, unfortunately as the databases are also not accessible. The Vihara would also like to apologise for all the undue anxiety and disappointment for not getting a response to your queries, etc in this last one week. We seek your forgiveness and seek your support to bear with us till we get the server up. Until then, kindly do not hesitate to call the Vihara line at 03-2274 1141 and please help us to e-disseminate this information. With the Blessings of the Noble Triple Gem. Committee of Management Buddhist Maha Vihara From: Yanna Perera > <...> Dear Friends of the Vihara, "THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN" EXHIBITION AND TALKS TO COMMEMORATE 3 MONTH MEMORIAL FOR THE LATE VEN. DR K SRI DHAMMANANDA For many devotees particularly in Malaysia and Singapore, the late Venerable Dr K Sri Dhammananda Nayaka Maha Thera was not only a monk, he was also a "Great Man" whose life long service to the Dharma virtually transformed the Buddhist landscape here. His four days funeral service from August 31, 2006 to September 3, 2006 was attended by almost 30,000 people, the largest Buddhist congregation at any one time in Malaysian history. Come November 26, 2006, a week long programme will be initiated to commemorate the 3 month memorial of the late venerable. The programme will include Dharma talks by famous monks among others such as Ven. M Seelawimala from USA, Ajahn. Brahmavamso from Australia, Phakchok Rinpoche from Tibet, Ven. Mahinda from Malaysia, Ven. W Piyananda from the United States and Ven. Hai Tao from Taiwan. An inter-religious dialogue entitled "Death and Reaching out in grief" will be held on the last day of the programme. An Exhibition entitled "The Journey of a Great Man" will also be held in conjunction with the memorial week. Apart from this, other activities such as blood donation, chanting sessions from various traditions, viewing of the late venerable's saririka (remains), an all night chanting as well as Sanghika Dana will also be held. The main event for the week is the emplacement of the remains of the late Venerable Dr K Sri Dhammananda into a specially built stupa on Saturday, December 2, 2006. The site of the stupa is located next to the Maha Vihara's International Pagoda. For many Malaysian Buddhists, this will be a momentous occasion as it will be the first time the relics of a revered monk is emplaced in the 112 years old Vihara. The Chief Incumbent Bhikkhu, Venerable K Dhammaratana Thera and committee of management of SAWS & BMSM cordially invite each and everyone of you to attend the scheduled events. Below is the detailed programme: 26th Nov (Sun) 9.00am Annual Novitiate Program Ordination Ceremony 11.00am Viewing of the Saririka & Exhibition on the Life and works of the late Dr K Sri Dhammananda entitled "The Journey of a Great man." (Organized by the Buddhist Gem Fellowship) 7.30 pm Chanting by Burmese Venerables 8.00 pm 1st Dhamma Talk (Eng) by Bhante M. Seelawimala, USA (Sponsored by the Subang Jaya Buddhist Association) 27th Nov (Mon) 7.30pm Chanting by Mahayana Venerables 8.00 pm 2nd Dhamma Talk (Mand) by Ven. Hai Tao, Taiwan (Sponsored by the Hai Tao Life Foundation) 28th Nov (Tues) 7.30pm Chanting by Vajrayana Venerables 8.00pm 3rd Dhamma Talk (Eng) by Phakchok Rinpoche, Tibet (Sponsored by the Vajrayana Council of Malaysia) 29th Nov (Wed) 7.30 pm Chanting by Thai Venerables 8.00 pm 4th Dhamma Talk (Eng) by Ajahn Brahmavamso, AU (Sponsored by the Ti-ratana Buddhist Society) 30th Nov (Thurs) 7.30pm Chanting by Mahayana Venerables 8.00pm 5th Dhamma Talk (Mand) by Ven. Hui Xian, Malaysia (Sponsored by Fo Guang Shan Malaysia) 1st Dec (Fri) 7.00pm Buddha Puja 8.00pm 6th Dhamma Talk (Eng) by Bhante M Punnaji, UK (Jointly sponsored by the Klang and Coast Buddhist Association and the Nalanda Buddhist Society) 10.00pm All Night Chanting 2nd Dec (Sat) 9.00am "Significance of Enshrining relics in Buddhism" by Ven. W. Piyananda, USA Emplacement of the remains of the late Ven Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda into stupa (Stupa constructed by Sangha members of Siri Jayanti Association) 10.30am Programme to commemorate Ven M Mahinda Thera and Ven. K Vijitha Thera's 30 years of monkhood. Multimedia presentation. (Organized by Aloka Foundation and the BMSM Youth Section) 11.30am Sanghika Dana 7.30pm Special Bodhi Puja 8.00pm 7th Dhamma Talk (Eng) by Ven. M Mahinda Thera, AU (Sponsored by the Aloka Foundation) 3rd Dec (Sun) 9.00am Blood Donation Campaign 9.00am Inter-religious dialogue "Death and Reaching Out in Grief" (Organized by INSAF and MCCBCHS) #65646 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:42 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... antony272b2 Hi, Howard, Swee Boon – I found this sutta (Visakha was a sotapanna, I think from the age of 7 and went on to have many children and grandchildren): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html I got 53 replies after posting the end of that sutta to E-Sangha: "So one who aspires to be stainless & sorrowless shouldn't make anything in the world dear anywhere." Two months later I found what I was looking for: My favorite translation of Sutta Nipata 811: Translation by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: The Sage is unsupported everywhere making neither "dear" nor those "undear," sorrow then and meanness do not stain, as water settles not on (lotus) leaf. I have a few alternative translations of Snp 811 if people want to discuss. with metta / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Swee Boon - > > In a message dated 11/25/06 6:45:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nidive@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > > > I also don't believe that if your wife or one of your sons or > > grandchildren were to pass away right now, there would not arise a > > single tinge of sadness and depression in you. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, of course that is so. If their were not such sadness, I would > have to be mentally ill, or my so called love for them would be a lie. > I just read of a 64-year-old grandmother who died as a Palestinian > suicide bomber, the oldest so far. She did that, slightly wounding two Israeli > soldiers in the process, having lost a child and a grandchild to Israeli > (defensive) fire. I grieved for her when I read this. Would I not then grieve for > those close to me? > --------------------------------------- > > > The understanding of anatta at the level of sotapanna is not even > > sufficient to overcome emotional attachment, much less a worldling in > > training. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would expect that to be so. > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > The Buddha teaches the overcoming of all dukkha, even a tiny tinge of > > sadness and depression. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree. He teaches the way to arahantship, at which point there would > be no sadness. > -------------------------------------- > > > > > Suggested Readings: > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn21/sn21.002.than.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.014.nypo.html > > > > Regards, > > Swee Boon > > > > > ======================== > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. Until I am an arahant, attachments will remain. So be it. Meanwhile, at > the price of grief, I won't try to simulate lack of dukkha by withholding love > and hardening my heart. > #65647 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:30 am Subject: Neither Dear nor Undear antony272b2 Hi Howard, Swee Boon, all: To add to my reply (attached) here are: Various translations of Sutta Nipata 811: Translation by Bhikkhu Khantipalo (my favorite): The Sage is unsupported everywhere making neither "dear" nor those "undear," sorrow then and meanness do not stain, as water settles not on (lotus) leaf. Thanissaro Bhikkhu: Everywhere the sage independent holds nothing dear or undear. In him lamentation & selfishness, like water on a white lotus, do not adhere. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.06.than.html John D. Ireland: A sage who is completely independent does not make close friends or enemies. In him sorrow and selfishness do not stay, like water on a lotus leaf. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.06.irel.html Ven Dr.H.Saddhatissa: The sage who is independent in all circumstances, does not exhibit like or dislike. Sorrow and avarice do not cling to him as water does not stick to the lotus leaf. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Hi, Howard, Swee Boon – > > I found this sutta (Visakha was a sotapanna, I think from the age of > 7 and went on to have many children and grandchildren): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html > I got 53 replies after posting the end of that sutta to E-Sangha: > "So one who aspires > to be stainless & sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere." > > Two months later I found what I was looking for: > My favorite translation of Sutta Nipata 811: > Translation by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > The Sage is unsupported everywhere > making neither "dear" nor those "undear," > sorrow then and meanness do not stain, > as water settles not on (lotus) leaf. > > I have a few alternative translations of Snp 811 if people want to > discuss. > > with metta / Antony. #65648 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Hi Antony, Connie, Scott & all, Thank you for your good quotes which help us all to reflect further. --- Antony Woods wrote: > I found this sutta (Visakha was a sotapanna, I think from the age of > 7 and went on to have many children and grandchildren): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html .... S: Yes, Connie (and Scott) referred to this same sutta/Udana recently too in #65045 I had meant to chip in then as well and add even more from the commentary to Udana Ch8, #8 Visakha, translated by Masefield. One of Visakha's grand-children had died - a grand-daughter who had been devoted to the Dhamma and had greatly supported Visakha in all her acts of merit and was also said to be very beautiful. Visakha, even though she'd been a sotapanna since the age of 7, as you say, was unable to bear her grief and went to see the Buddha. We then read that the Buddha asked her how many humans die each day in Savatthi and helped her to see that all could be considered as her children and then she'd be overcome by grief at all times if she held them all dear. .... Ud-a:"Would you ever at any time be either without wet clothes or without wet hair?"; he indicates that, this being so, she would, on account of her being at all times overcome by grief, surely have wet clothes, wet hair, alone as a result of the (constant) ritual bathing by way of inauspicious ceremonies for dead children and so on (that she would have to perform). The female layfollower, filled with shock upon hearing this, rejected the object held dear saying "Surely not, Lord", and then, in informing the Teacher that her heart had now turned away from that remorse, said: "Enough of so many children and grand-children for me, Lord!" .... S: Followed by the memorable lines: Ud-a:"Then the Lord, in teaching Dhamma to her, viz. "This that we refer to as dukkha is attributable to an object held dear; there are as many (sources of) dukkha as there are objects held dear. Therefore the one desiring happiness, the one who finds dukkha repulsive, should separate his heart from all objects held dear", said "Those to whom a hundred (things) are dear, Visaadhaa, have a hundred (sources of dukkha)" and so on. Herein: A hundred are dear (sata.m piyaani): a hundred objects capable of being held dear." .... S: And a little later by way of elaboration: ... Ud-a:" Fathoming this matter (etam attha.m viditvaa): knowing in all its modes this matter, viz. that mental and bodily dukkha, such as grief and lamentation and so on, that is attributable to an object held dear, (only) exists when there be an object that is held dear - does not exist when there be none (such) - gave rise to this Udaana completely elucidating that matter. This is its meaning: whatever (i) griefs, whose characteristic is that of mental torment for the fool as he is internally consumed upon being contacted by the (five) losses of relatives, possessions, disease, morality and view, (and) of whatever kind, by way of their division into those that are mild and medium and so on, [429] or (ii) lamentations, whose characteristic is that of verbal babbling given rise to by the bubbling up of grief (for that same fool) upon being contacted by those same (losses) or (iii) dukkhas whose characteristic is that of oppressing the body of the one whose body has been smitten by undesirable tangible objects or (iv) likewise dejection and despair and so on, on account of the inclusion, by means of the word vaa (or) which has the sense of an alternative, of (those items) whose sense is not stated, and which, through their division in terms of that upon which they are reliant, are of countless forms, of divers kinds, are seen, discovered, in this world of beings - all these (i-iv) originate, come into being, dependent upon, reliant upon, owing to, by turning into a condition, some thing held dear, some being or some formation belonging to the class of things held dear." ... S: Note that even grief over loss of morality is included in the mental torments for the fool under the 5 losses in i). And then the reverse: .... Ud-a:"But when there be no thing held dear, (when there be no) objects, as aforementioned, that is held dear, when yearning and lust, that bring about a state in which things are held dear, are abandoned, these do not exist at any time whatsoever. For this is said: "From that held dear grief is born ... from love grief is born" (Dhp 212f) and so on, likewise "Disputes, contention, lamentations and griefs, along with selfishness, have their origins in things held dear (Sn 863) and so forth." ... S: A little later we read the lines Antony quoted: > "So one who aspires > to be stainless & sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere." .... Ud-a: "Therefore, the one wishing for that which is grief-free, for that which is dustless, should not engender that held dear anywhere in this world (tasmaa asoka.m viraja.m patthayaano piya.m na kayiraatha kuhi~nci loke): and since they are said to be happy, free of grief, there being, on account of that same fact that they are rid of grief, no state in which things are held dear where any objective field anywhere is concerned, therefore the one wishing on his own account for that which is, due to the absence of the aforementioned grief, grief-free, for the grief-free state, for that which is, through the departure of the dusts of lust and so on, dustless, for the dustless state, for arahantship, or alternatively for nibbaana, which has acquired the name "That which is grief-free, that which is dustless" on account of its being the root-cause of the absence of grief and of the dusts of lusts and so forth - the one filled with yearning (for same) by way of that yearning that is skilled consisting in a desire to act - [430] should not engender, should not give rise to, that held dear, any state in which things are held dear, holding dear, anywhere (kuni~nci = katthaci, synonyms) in this world, where any dhamma, such as a sight-object and so on is concerned, where even any dhamma associated with samatha or vipassanaa is concerned. For this is said: "Even (right) dhammas are to be abandoned, so how much more so wrong dhammas" (M i 135)." .... > My favorite translation of Sutta Nipata 811: > Translation by Bhikkhu Khantipalo: > The Sage is unsupported everywhere > making neither "dear" nor those "undear," > sorrow then and meanness do not stain, > as water settles not on (lotus) leaf. > > I have a few alternative translations of Snp 811 if people want to > discuss. ... S: Very nice. Pls add your other translations for our further consideration too. Metta, Sarah (with Connie's tireless help) ====== #65649 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:51 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Even after the third stage of insight has been reached, insight is still “tender insight” (taruùa vipassanå). When insight is merely “tender” a person can still deviate from the eightfold Path. The Visuddhimagga (XX, 105) mentions “imperfections” which can arise: someone may cling to his understanding, to tranquillity or to the assurance he has due to this beginning insight. He may forget that also understanding is only a conditioned reality which is not self. Or he may erroneously think that he has attained enlightenment already and thus he may get stuck in his development. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65650 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. philofillet Hi again > > it is about the finding a balance between the conventional world > and > > the world of paramattha dhammas: Howard: > > > maintain metta, karuna, and mudita without reifying persons is to > > walk a thin, taut, > > tightrope. The trick is not to fall off, to the right (the love > is > > present > > but perverted to attachment by self-making) or to the left > (destroyed > > is belief > > in the existence of people in any sense, and along with that > metta, > > karuna, > > and mudita). The norm for falling off is to fall to the right. If > one > > must fall, > > it is the better way. A fall to the right is a fall to the center > of > > samsara. > > A fall to the left is a fall into a hell realm. > > > Hmmm. Interesting. The hell realm part doesn't sound guaranteed - I was thinking about this, briefly. We have to acknowledge that we can alsomove closer to the hell realm when we form attachments with people, because when our attachments our ravaged/torn asunder etc it can condition acts that lead to hell. (Killing to avenge a loved one etc - who can say for sure that they wouldn't?) So of course the love we feel has to be accompanied by understanding. Is that "detachment from the beginning?" Maybe. Anyhoo, time for dinner. Phil #65651 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:04 am Subject: Re: Stressing sila philofillet Dear Venerable Dhammanando > > "A fetter is born, a bond is born! (raahu jaato, bandhana.m jaata.m) > ... Just as the glory of the solar and lunar mansions is obscured by > the asura king Raahu, even so a peril has arisen to my renunciation and > going forth." > (Apadaana Atthakathaa 325). Thank you for the passage. Very interesting. Phil #65652 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi Ken >I look forward to talking to you later about formal > meditation (as distinct from bhavana, which the Buddha really did teach). Ok, look forward to hear what you have to say - good to keep an open mind. BTW, I was listening to a Mahasi-related talk today and I was thinking "where do these ideas come from?" about some of the points related to meditation objects, so I see your point. I doubt I'll be debating, though. I'm keen on meditation these days but don't have strong enough opinions on it to get into a serious discussion. I'll just be popping in and shooting my mouth off on occasion when heedfulness fails, I guess. Phil #65653 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:42 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, connie, All, Here's a tale regarding: S: "Ud-a:'But when there be no thing held dear, (when there be no) objects, as aforementioned, that is held dear, when yearning and lust, that bring about a state in which things are held dear, are abandoned, these do not exist at any time whatsoever. For this is said: 'From that held dear grief is born ... from love grief is born' (Dhp 212f) and so on, likewise 'Disputes, contention, lamentations and griefs, along with selfishness, have their origins in things held dear (Sn 863) and so forth.'" I like to call it, "The Chinese Wife." While I was learning to roll dough for dumplings in the home of Rebecca's friend from school, her mother - my dough-rolling teacher - a Chinese woman and very kind, was discussing her impending return to China for a visit. She was heard by me to suggest that she could bring back with her a Chinese wife for me; she had asked moments earlier if I was planning to re-marry, hence the statement. I was about to laugh, since a joke is meant to elicit such a response, but I looked first and realised she was totally serious. Despite her sales-pitch (Chinese wives apparently are very hard workers) I politely (I hope) declined. I don't intend to remarry. Or seek a partner. I don't pretend to know the future either (anticipating such a retort) but I know for a fact, given where I work, that the wise and savvy likely consider this resolution to be an artifact of grief, and by that would mean a poor resolution, an unhealthy resolution. There are moments when I wonder about this resolve (we won't go into it but anyone with libido will know). The world would call this unresolved grief, fear of intimacy, and who-knows-what-other-fancy-sounding-epithet. I call it an opportunity. Should one be seeking to find another dear when one knows the Dhamma? Is this 'coldness'? Why seek attachment any more than one finds it unbidden billions of times a day? Further damaging my reputation as a human I remain, Scott. #65654 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > Jon: " The question I was addressing is whether the teaching on DO as > given by the Buddha is limited to a single lifetime, or whether it > was given as applying to life in samsara generally (i.e., beyond the > span of a single lifetime). > If one says that it was given as applying only to a single lifetime, > then I cannot see what the profound significance of it would be > (especially in instance of the reverse application mentioned in my > earlier post) or what it adds to the rest of the teachings." > > Joop: Months ago we also had a discussion about this theme. I simply > repeat: DO can be applied in two ways: in the single lifetime and in > the three lifetime way. I prefer the single lifetime application > (because I don't believe in rebirth) and I don't understand why that > cannot have profound significance and why the reverse application is > not relevant in the single lifetime application. Just to clarify: I have not said that DO has no application within a single lifespan. It has application in one or more ways to pretty much every present moment. What I said was that it doesn't seem to be necessarily limited to a single lifetime. But since you seem to acknowledge this anyway in your comments above, we are in agreement on this point ;-)). Regarding the reverse application of DO, how do you see this applying to the moment of death consciousness in the case of an individual in whom ignorance has not yet been eradicated? > Joop (earlier) > But more central: I think these explanations are > given in commentaries, not in the Suttas. > Jon: "There are many descriptions of sudden awakening in the Thera- > Theri Gatha, which is part of the Kuddhaka Nikaya." > > Joop: You really cannot read. It was me that started to state that > there are many examples of sudden awakening described in the Suttas. > Then is was you stating "but all have a rational explanation in terms > of insight knowledge gained in previous lifetimes", about which I > said: "I think these explanations are given in commentaries, not in > the Suttas." > So my question, again, is: are there many descriptions of sudden > awakening of which - IN THE SUTTAS - is given an explanation in terms > of previous lifetimes ??? The Kuddhaka Nikaya is part of the Sutta Pitaka, and everything in the Sutta Pitaka is 'sutta'. As to whether there is found in the Sutta Pitaka any words from the Buddha's mouth mentioning insight developed in previous lifetimes as being the foundation for enlightenment in the presently llifetime, I'm sure there is but I don't have a reference handy. I'll let you have one when I come across one. > Jon: "Firstly, as regards your comment about Sariputta, to my > understanding it would not be possible for any person to acquire > knowledge of the conditioned nature of dhammas other than from > hearing the teachings of a Buddha." > > Joop: To me reading the Suttas can have the same effect as "hearing > the teachings of a Buddha" or do you think that literally hearing - > by ones physical ears - of His voice has more impact > I'm afraid I don't follow you here. We were discussing whether Sariputta could have acquired a deep knowledge of conditions etc. entirely within that lifetime. I was saying that in my view the answer must be 'No' because he had not come across the teachings until meeting Ven Assaji, shortly before he attained enlightenment. On the point you raise here, I agree that knowledge of the teachings can be acquired other than by literal 'hearing' of them. > Jon: "Secondly, as regards your question, I can only say that it's > obviously not enough for the vast majority of people. What's your > view on this question?" > > Joop: I'm not sure, I think that the criteria for getting > streamenterer are made (by Theravada monks for reasons I don't > understand) higher and higher in the course of the centuries. I think > with the level of insight you and I have, we were a streamenterer in > the time of the Buddha. > But how is it possible for the criteria for becoming stream-enterer to be raised or lowered by anyone? It's not as though there's a board of examiners! ;-)) > Jon: "Discursive thinking can be kusala or akusala; > > Joop: I don't agree: the results of it can be used kusala or akusala, > thinking itself is innocent. > What about thinking with lobha, with dosa, with metta, with panna, etc? Surely the thinking that is going on as you read this sentence is accompanied by mental factors that are either kusala or akusala? > Jon: "if kusala, can be with or without panna (and panna can be of > the level of insight or not of that level). So it is not discursive > thinking but panna of the level of insight knowledge that > distinguishes mundane path moments from non-path moments. > As regards the conditions for the arising of such mundane path > moments, these include understanding the aspects of the true dhamma > that are heard and reflecting on those aspects that have been > understood, both of which clearly involve discursive thinking. But it > is discursive thinking that is accompanied by panna of the > appropriate level; discursive thinking itself is not something that > needs to be developed." > > Joop: in daily life, for example when deciding to get in New York, a > developed level of discursive thinking is very welcome. And I'm sure > it can have a positive function in spiritual life too, I don't like > that Zen-anti-intellectualism. And also discursive thinking useful in > spiritual life has to be developed: a recent born child does not have > much of it. > Your definition of "discursive thinking" is very peculiar not to say > bizar. > To me "discursive thinking" is the MANIPULATION OF CONCEPTS. > And in good contemplating the concepts are rich of ultimate > realities. > As an exemple I give the contemplation on Compassion by Nyanaponika. > I agree that discursive thinking is necessary for our conventional daily lives. But everyone thinks discursively without having to 'develop' that ability; the difference is that some do so with more common sense or intelligence or kusala than others, and this is a difference in the accompanying mental factors. As regards the development of insight, I am not saying it would be possible without discursive thinking (clearly it wouldn't); I'm saying that it is the different kinds of kusala that need to be developed, rather than discursive thinking per se. Jon Thanks for the extract from Nyanaponika. As I read it, he is referring to moments of consciousness that are accompanied by the wholesome mental factor of compassion. I can see no particular mention of or reference to discursive thinking. > The Four Sublime States; Contemplations on Love, Compassion, > Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity by Nyanaponika Thera > …. > Compassion (Karuna) > The world suffers. But most men have their eyes and ears closed. They > do not see the unbroken stream of tears flowing through life; they do > not hear the cry of distress continually pervading the world. Their > own little grief or joy bars their sight, deafens their ears. Bound > by selfishness, their hearts turn stiff and narrow. Being stiff and > narrow, how should they be able to strive for any higher goal, to > realize that only release from selfish craving will effect their own > freedom from suffering? ... > #65655 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >> According to the texts, it is by the development of sati that the >> sense-doors become guarded. > > Actually not quite so. > > According to MN 39, the guarding of the senses comes first before the > development of mindfulness. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > Thanks for drawing my attention to this sutta. I do believe that the texts explain 'guarding the senses' in terms of the arising of sati. I'll look for some references and get back to you on this (others are more than welcome to come in with references, please). I don't see any necessary inconsistency here. Jon #65656 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:25 am Subject: Re: Some More on Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, again, Jon - > > You had asked me about guarding the senses, and I really couldn't get > what you were aiming at. So, I've looked back at the recent history of our > conversations, > Thanks for going to the trouble of checking the recent history and getting our discussion back 'on track'. > and saw that this began with your writing the following: > > >> But I think that what was unique to the Buddha's teaching, being its >> very essence, is very much to the point when considering exactly what >> the Buddha said elsewhere in the teachings, for example about 'stamping >> out akusala like a grass fire'. Did the Buddha urge 'active opposition >> to akusala states', as you suggest, or did he urge the development of >> kusala of all kinds on any occasion (I think you'd agree that the two >> are not the same)? >> >> > I then replied to that with "He urged both." I realize now how you > must have understood this reply, and that that probably led to your subsequent > questions. Let me comment as follows: > The Buddha DID urge "stamping out akusala like a grass fire." This, > however, I take to be a conventional process, involving billions of mindstates. > Any conventional process will as you say involve countless mindstates. Many (or most) of these will be akusala, since akusala is the norm. If the Buddha urged the undertaking of conventional processes necessarily involving akusala mindstates, he could not be urging the development of kusala at all times. This is why I said the Buddha could not have urged both. > Part of the process involves heightened attention and vigilance so > that one will not miss the sort of states, wholesome and unwholesome, that are > typical at a given time. Generally, a feature, such as anger, will repeat for a > long stretch. During intervening wholesome states, cutting short such a train > of unwholesomeness is possible. Likewise, the sustaining and furthering of > kusala, and so on. Right effort is a conventional process, and not a matter of a > single instantaneous action. > Within that conventional process, there are moments of both kusala and akusala, right? I'd be interested to hear your views on what determines which arises at any given moment. > Much of the right-effort endeavors amount to advance cultivation, as I > described in my last post. That's the thrust of the sutta SN 45.8, it seems. As I said in a reply to your post on right effort, there is no such form of kusala as 'advance cultivation'. There is only (under the 3-fold classification) dana, sila and bhavana, and bhavana is either samatha or vipassana. Jon #65657 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:15 am Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) jonoabb Hi Scott Many thanks for providing the Pali text of the passage on the 4 right efforts. Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > > >From the CSCD, the Paali: > > "Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammaavaayaamo? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu > anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusulaana.m dhammaana.m anuppaadaaya > chanda.m janeti vaayamati viriya.m aarabhati citta.m paga.nhaati > padahati, uppannaana.m paapkaana.m akusalana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya > chanda.m janeti...pe...anuppanhaana.m kusalana.m dhammaana.m > uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti...pe...uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m > .thitiyaa asammosaaya bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya > paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti vaayamati viriya.m aavabhati citta.m > paagganhaati padahati - aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, sammaavaayamo." > > The functional words seem to be: > > 'chanda.m' > 'viriya.m' > 'vaayamati' > 'bhiyyobhaavaaya' > 'padahati' > > I also note that what Bhikkhu Bodhi renders as 'states' is > 'dhammaana.m'. I wonder if 'makes an effort' signifies that effort > arises? > I believe 'makes and effort' does indeed signify the arising of effort in the person. When effort arises the person can be said to be 'making an effort' (this is perhaps different from the conventional idea of making an effort). > I'm out of time to carry on but, for what its worth, and for the Paali > scholars... > Pali scholar I am definitely not, but I appreciate having the text to look at. Thanks. Jon #65658 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Matt Good to see you here. matt roke wrote: > Dear Howard, Ken H, Sukin, Jon and all, > > ... > Sotapannas understand that there is no self, so they will not kill in order > to protect themselves and they do not desire revenge because there is > nothing that can be done to them. And because they know that dhammas do not > stay and there is nothing to be gained, they will not kill for that purpose. > But a sotapanna is capable of acts of violence short of an intention to kill. Does the explanation you've given here account for their being able to commit those acts but not the act of killing? Jon #65659 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:10 am Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) jonoabb Hi Howard I notice that in another post you've gone back to our original topic, but since we've got on to right effort we might as well continue for a bit ;-)). upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 11/22/06 5:56:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> I think the key question here is whether the effort being described is >> effort that itself arises in a kusala mindstate, or is the effort that >> leads to (i.e., that precedes) the arising of a (subsequent) kusala >> mindstate, because if it is the latter then it would be effort arising >> in an akusala mindstate. >> >> I'd be interested to hear your views on this. >> >> Jon > ===================== > As I interpret the sutta now, the 4 right efforts constitute > wholesome, intentional cultivating of certain (wholesome) propensities, and they would > occur during kusala mindstates. I agree that the four right efforts are references to the effort occurring during kusala mindstates. But when we look at the categories of kusala as explained by the Buddha, there is no such category as an intention or resolution to have (future) kusala, which is what I understand you are suggesting right effort to be (what you describe in another post as 'advance cultivation'). If we take the 3-fold classification of kusala into dana (generosity), sila (restraint from aksuala speech or action) and bhavana (either samatha (tranquility) or vipassana (insight)), we see that for consciousness to be kusala it must contain the mental factors that constitute one or other of these kusala qualities. There is no such thing as a 'propensity' for any of these kinds of kusala separate and apart from the accumulated tendency for the kusala itself. Thus an intention to cultivate (future) kusala could not be one of the kinds of kusala mindstate spoken of by the Buddha. (This of course is different to the conventional perception that an intention to do something is a positive first step toward the doing of that thing.) > Right effort occurs during wholesome mindstates, and it indirectly > conditions future wholesome states by directly conditioning the > intention/propensity for non-arising of akusala, abandoning of arisen akusala, arising of > kusala, and furthering of already-arisen kusala. > To my understanding, a person's propensity for right effort, or for any form of kusala for that matter, is nothing other than his accumulated tendency for that kusala. What the teachings urge is the actual arising of kusala, not some form of thinking about having it (advance cultivation). Jon PS One of the objects of samatha is contemplation of the Dhamma, and this of course includes contemplation of the value of different forms of kusala. However, this kind of reflection is not to be confused with an intention to have more kusala, or the effort to make kusala arise, whether at a time of 'practice' or on any other occasion. #65660 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - In a message dated 11/26/06 5:51:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, antony272b@... writes: > > Hi, Howard, Swee Boon – > > I found this sutta (Visakha was a sotapanna, I think from the age of > 7 and went on to have many children and grandchildren): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html > I got 53 replies after posting the end of that sutta to E-Sangha: > "So one who aspires > to be stainless &sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere." > ===================== Yes. Slightly more fully, there is: The sorrows, lamentations, the many kinds of suffering in the world, exist dependent on something dear. They don't exist when there's nothing dear. And thus blissful & sorrowless are those for whom nothing in the world is dear anywhere. So one who aspires to be stainless & sorrowless shouldn't make anything in the world dear anywhere. I believe there are two ways to misapply this: 1) To take 'dear' to mean the same as 'loved', and 2) To think that the way to end attachment is by hardening the heart. ========================= With metta, Howard #65661 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi,m Swee Boon - In a message dated 11/25/06 11:20:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >P.S. Until I am an arahant, attachments will remain. So be it. > >Meanwhile, at the price of grief, I won't try to simulate lack of > >dukkha by withholding love and hardening my heart. > > Not that I am telling you to harden your heart, but the Buddha's > 'expression of unworldly love' for his son Rahula by teaching him > gently and patiently the Dhamma is worth emulating, I think. -------------------------------------------- Howard: To teach anyone, especially those close to us, the Dhamma, gently and patiently, is of course to be emulated. --------------------------------------------- > > I think it is a 'privilege' to be born the son of a Buddha. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Again - of course! --------------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ===================== With metta, Howard #65662 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:05 am Subject: Re: Some More on Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/26/06 9:29:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Part of the process involves heightened attention and vigilance so > >that one will not miss the sort of states, wholesome and unwholesome, that > are > >typical at a given time. Generally, a feature, such as anger, will repeat > for a > >long stretch. During intervening wholesome states, cutting short such a > train > >of unwholesomeness is possible. Likewise, the sustaining and furthering of > >kusala, and so on. Right effort is a conventional process, and not a matter > of a > >single instantaneous action. > > > > Within that conventional process, there are moments of both kusala and > akusala, right? I'd be interested to hear your views on what determines > which arises at any given moment. > > > Much of the right-effort endeavors amount to advance cultivation, as I > >described in my last post. That's the thrust of the sutta SN 45.8, it > seems. > > As I said in a reply to your post on right effort, there is no such form > of kusala as 'advance cultivation'. There is only (under the 3-fold > classification) dana, sila and bhavana, and bhavana is either samatha or > vipassana. > ========================= The best I can do by way of an answer is to repeat the material from SN 45.8: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."— SN 45.8 With metta, Howard #65663 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:13 am Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/26/06 9:46:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > I notice that in another post you've gone back to our original topic, > but since we've got on to right effort we might as well continue for a > bit ;-)). > > upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 11/22/06 5:56:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >jonabbott@... writes: > > > > > > >>I think the key question here is whether the effort being described is > >>effort that itself arises in a kusala mindstate, or is the effort that > >>leads to (i.e., that precedes) the arising of a (subsequent) kusala > >>mindstate, because if it is the latter then it would be effort arising > >>in an akusala mindstate. > >> > >>I'd be interested to hear your views on this. > >> > >>Jon > >===================== > > As I interpret the sutta now, the 4 right efforts constitute > >wholesome, intentional cultivating of certain (wholesome) propensities, and > they would > >occur during kusala mindstates. > > I agree that the four right efforts are references to the effort > occurring during kusala mindstates. > > But when we look at the categories of kusala as explained by the Buddha, > there is no such category as an intention or resolution to have (future) > kusala, which is what I understand you are suggesting right effort to be > (what you describe in another post as 'advance cultivation'). > > If we take the 3-fold classification of kusala into dana (generosity), > sila (restraint from aksuala speech or action) and bhavana (either > samatha (tranquility) or vipassana (insight)), we see that for > consciousness to be kusala it must contain the mental factors that > constitute one or other of these kusala qualities. There is no such > thing as a 'propensity' for any of these kinds of kusala separate and > apart from the accumulated tendency for the kusala itself. > > Thus an intention to cultivate (future) kusala could not be one of the > kinds of kusala mindstate spoken of by the Buddha. (This of course is > different to the conventional perception that an intention to do > something is a positive first step toward the doing of that thing.) > > > Right effort occurs during wholesome mindstates, and it indirectly > >conditions future wholesome states by directly conditioning the > >intention/propensity for non-arising of akusala, abandoning of arisen > akusala, arising of > >kusala, and furthering of already-arisen kusala. > > > > To my understanding, a person's propensity for right effort, or for any > form of kusala for that matter, is nothing other than his accumulated > tendency for that kusala. What the teachings urge is the actual arising > of kusala, not some form of thinking about having it (advance cultivation). > > Jon > > PS One of the objects of samatha is contemplation of the Dhamma, and > this of course includes contemplation of the value of different forms of > kusala. However, this kind of reflection is not to be confused with an > intention to have more kusala, or the effort to make kusala arise, > whether at a time of 'practice' or on any other occasion. > > ========================== Again, I can only rely on the Buddha's definition of right effort as in the following: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."— SN 45.8 Right effort is certainly wholesome, and it certainly is stated here as exerting an intent for four types of event to occur, and it sure seems like an advance cultivation to me. But, of course, you are free to interpret it differently. With metta, Howard #65664 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:15 am Subject: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) scottduncan2 Hi Jon, Regarding: J: "I believe 'makes and effort' does indeed signify the arising of effort in the person. When effort arises the person can be said to be 'making an effort' (this is perhaps different from the conventional idea of making an effort)." I see it the same way. Noticing effort in progress it is just effort-in-progress. The mistake is to say, "I meant to do that." Scott. #65665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 133. nilovg Dear friends, vi~n~naa.na-dhåtu is a collective name for all cittas. When cittas are classified as elements, they are the seven classes of vi~n~naa.na- dhåtu, namely: pañca-vi~n~naa.na-dhåtu (which are five classes) mano-dhåtu, mind-element mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhåtu, mind-consciousness-element It is important to remember this classification of cittas, because in the teachings and the commentaries, and also in the Visuddhimagga, different types of cittas are often denoted as the elements which are classified above. If we do not remember which cittas are mind-element and which cittas are mind-consciousness-element, we will not know which citta is referred to in the texts. Sometimes the Buddha spoke about six elements; or he classified realities as two elements. There are many different ways of classifying realities, but no matter in which way they are classified, as khandhas, by way of objects, åramma.nas, as åyatanas, as dhåtus, or in any other way, we should remember the purpose of classifying realities: understanding that what we take for self are only nåma-elements and rúpa-elements. In the Satipa.t.thåna-sutta (Discourse on the Applications of Mindfulness, Middle Length Sayings I, no. 10) we read in the section on ``mindfulness of the body'', that the Buddha spoke about the body in terms of elements. The text states: And again, monks, a monk reflects on this body according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: ``In this body there is the element of extension, the element of cohesion, the element of heat, the element of motion.'' Monks, even as a skilled cattle-butcher, or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow, might sit displaying its carcase at a cross-roads, even so, monks, does a monk reflect on this body itself according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: ''In this body there is the element of extension, the element of cohesion, the element of heat, the element of motion''. Thus he fares along contemplating the body in the body internally... and he fares along independently of and not grasping anything in the world. It is thus too, monks, that a monk fares along contemplating the body in the body... ******* Nina. #65666 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana I, 6. nilovg Dear friends, Citta and cetasika are conditioned nåmas. There is one citta at a time and each citta is accompanied by several cetasikas which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in knowing an object. If we do not know that understanding, mindfulness and right concentration are cetasikas which accompany kusala citta, we shall cling to them and have wrong view about them. We need to know many details because defilements are deeply rooted. Khun Sujin said that people who develop satipa.t.thåna naturally, in daily life, have more detachment than those who do not develop it naturally. If one develops satipa.t.thåna naturally one does not try to exert control over sati or the objects of sati. A moment of awareness may arise and after that moments of forgetfulness. One can learn to notice the difference between such moments. Does at this moment a paramattha dhamma appear, or is there thinking of a concept? There can be awareness of a moment of ignorance which just occurred so that it can be realized as a conditioned reality. Jonothan remarked that visible object is different from what we think it is. We tend to speculate about it, we are wondering how far the visible object we see at this moment extends. We make it into something abstract, but in reality it is just that which is seen. All that appears through the eyesense is visible object. If one were blind it could not appear. Khun Sujin asked whether visible object can move. When we notice a change of position of what we perceive it is only thinking. Because of remembrance of past experiences one believes that one sees people move. If there can be a moment of awareness of one reality there will be less clinging to a concept of a "whole", to an image of a person walking. When we hear a dog barking different moments of experience arise. Hearing hears that particular sound and then we remember that it is the sound of a dog. We can remind ourselves that it is not "I" who remembers but saññå, remembrance or perception, a cetasika which remembers an object or "marks" it so that it can be recognized later on. Saññå accompanies each citta, be it seeing or hearing or the citta which thinks of concepts. We recognize people and things because of saññå. Previous experiences have been accumulated and they are remembered. Also in the past the sound of a dog was heard, we learnt what a dog is and the way it barks. Because of saññå we can imitate its barking, or, when other people imitate its barking we can know that it is not the barking of a dog. "Sound does not know that you are thinking about it", Khun Sujin said, reminding us that there is no being, no dog in the sound. It is only rúpa which impinges on the earsense; when there are the right conditions a particular sound, pleasant or unpleasant, can be heard. The sound only appears when it is the right time for víthi-cittas arising in the ear-door process. When we are fast asleep there may be sound, but it is not heard. ------------ 1) Cittas arising in a process. ********** Nina. #65667 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:38 am Subject: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) scottduncan2 Dear Howard and Jon, Dhammasa"ga.ni: "[22] What on that occasion is right endeavour (sammaa-vaayaamo)? Answer as for the 'faculty of energy' "[13] What on that occasion is the faculty of energy (viriyindriya.m)? "The mental inception of energy which there is on that occasion, the striving and the onward effort, the exertion and endeavour, the zeal and ardour, the vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort, the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden, energy, energy as faculty and as power, right endeavour - this is the energy that there then is." The translator notes, p.13: "Viriya.m is by Buddhaghosa connected with (a) viira, the dynamic effectiveness which is the essence of the genus 'hero' (viiro); (b) iiriya, vibrating movement. He characterizes it by the two notions, 'supporting' and 'grasping at', or 'stretching forward' (paggaho), and, again, by 'exerting' (ussaahana.m)...He seems to have wished, as modern psychologists have done, to accound for the two modes of conscious effort: resistance and free energy. But he also emphasizes the fact that the energy in question is mental, not bodily." Although I think the notion of 'psychic energy' is outmoded, I think the point above is that we are dealing here with mental factors, not external action. In this event, I think we must always consider these factors to be impersonal, hence again, comes the characteristic of anatta. Further, the translator: "Aarambho (cf. aaramma.na.m), overt action as distinguished from inaction, hence action at its inception, is distinguished by the Cy. as having six different implications, according as there is reference to kamma, to a fault committed, to slaying or injury, or to action as such (kiriyaa) or energy as such." More Buddhaghosa: "In the exposition of the 'faculty of energy' the word 'mental' is said to show that energy is always mental. 'Bhikkhus, that which is bodily energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom; that which is mental energy is always energy as a factor of wisdom. Thus energy is outlined.' [Sa.myutta v. 111] Thus, in such Suttas, even though energy may be said to be bodily from its arising in one walking to and fro, etc., yet it is not so called as in the term 'body-consciousness.' Verily there is only mental energy. It is to show that 'mental' has been said." Attasaalinii, p.192. Sincerely, Scott. #65668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana nilovg Dear Ruawachar, I have not seen you before on the list. Welcome here. Perhaps you may like to read my daily Letters on Vipassana and then we can discuss the subject. It cannot be explained in a few words. It is the development of right understanding of all realities within yourself and around yourself. It can be developed in daily life. It is best if you ask questions. Nina. Op 26-nov-2006, om 2:51 heeft Raghunath Awachar het volgende geschreven: > I want to know about vipassana in detail. How it was taught by Buddha > and how it is different from other meditation practices.Can anybody > help me. #65669 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Art or Asubha? '-Kamma Strikes Back!'( Re: some points on art) m_nease Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > How are you? I hope you are feeling alright now. > According to your description it is most likely that > it is shingles or also called herpes zoster. It is > viral infection and I am sure you must be taking > anti-viral medications. I pray for your complete > recovery. > > As regards the discussion: > Sarah: > You said that you know that your house is your house. Sorry that I accidentally made my message to appear to have come from Sarah--I think you've worked this out now. Apologies also for the lateness of this correction--I've been away. If you'd like me to reply to any of your comments (mis) directed to Sarah, please let me know--otherwise no reply is necessary. > Sabbapaapassa akaranam > kusalassa upasampadaa > sacittapariyodapanam > etam buddhaana saasanam. Wonderful in my opinion. mike #65670 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Art or Asubha? '-Kamma Strikes Back!'( Re: some points on art) m_nease Hi Again Han (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Mike (and Sarah), > > I am so sorry I got mixed up. > Please ignore my last message. > When I write to Sarah I write differently, something > like an idle talk without any substance. > I am now writing a new one. My fault entirely. And I never find your comments either idle or without substance. > >Mike: This reminds me of something Han wrote > recently, hope you don't mind, Han, if I respond > somewhat obliquely here. You said that you know that > your house is your house. This is just a > concept--suppose your property had been somehow seized > and you didn't know it yet--your sense of security > would be unchanged by the fact, as long as you didn't > know it. Or suppose you thought that your property had > been seized due to a bureaucratic error but it had not > been--your sense of loss and insecurity would be > unchanged by the facts, as long as you didn't 'know' > them. > > Han: Yes, Mike, as long as I do not know I will not > feel the loss. > ------------------------------ > > Mike: If I'm sure that I'm going to die tomorrow, my > mental states will be one way, even if in the actual > event things work out differently. If in fact I AM > going to die tomorrow--always a possibility of > course--but have no idea that it's going to happen, my > mental states in the meantime will be otherwise, > usually heedless and unwholesome of course but happier > than in the former case. > > Han: Yes, Mike, I also agree with your above comments. > > ----------------------------- > > Mike: I think that this kind of worry about e.g. the > existence of Han's house, or of 'no Lodewick' is an > example of how wrong view is always (?) dependent on > existence or non-existence. The conceptual aspect of > either assumption, conventionally speaking--or the > momentary presence of the dhamma 'wrong view', > abhidhammically speaking-- is an obstacle to > understanding, I think, quite aside from and > irrelevant to ontological considerations. > > Han: This is also correct, Mike. When I cannot even > own myself, how can I own my house or any other > property or person. > This is indeed a wrong view. It surely is an obstacle > to understanding. > > One of my favourite Dhammapada verses is the > following. > > Verse 62 > Puttaa ma'tthi dhanam ma'tthi > iti baalo viha~n~nati > attaa hi attano natthi > kuto puttaa kuto dhanam. > > "I have sons, I have wealth"; with this (feeling of > attachment) the fool is afflicted. > Indeed, he himself is not his own, how can sons and > wealth be his? > > As a matter of fact, I do not have much attachment to > material possessions. I started from zero during the > War. I had to fend for myself. My parents were dead > towards the end of the War and I had no other > siblings. I had half-brothers but they won't lift a > finger for me. At that time, to live for one more day > was a bonus! With this background, I won't feel > anything even if I loose everything. > > However, my wife, my children and my grand-children > are a different matter altogether. I have too much > attachment for them. So I have to constantly warn > myself not to have that much attachment. For this > purpose, my favourite Dhammapada verse is: > > Verse 212 > Piyato jaayati soko > piyato jaayati bhayam > piyato vippamuttassa > natthi soko kuto bhayam. > > Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. > For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; > > how can there be fear for him? > > Kind regards, > Han Thank you, Han, a very worthy reply to my somewhat shallow comments. mike #65671 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... m_nease Hi Sarah, Antony, Connie et al., Thanks very much for all these citations. I think they're priceless reflections, recollections, and a reminder of the extent to which concepts condition dhammas--even (of course) with no conceiver behind the concepts. mike p.s. I've been away from my computer, also about two weeks ago I lost a couple of pages of email. If I've failed to respond to any off-list messages please let me know. I'll try to catch up with on-list messages today. ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:49 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... #65672 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stressing sila m_nease Bhante, Thanks very much for this. A very important reminder of the difference between conventional 'love' and mettaa or karu.naa. This seems to me absolutely consistent throughout the texts and is, I think, a kind of litmus test when considering the sobha.na dhammas vs 'love' in (other) religions. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Stressing sila ... > his path. Does anyone recall it? Yes. After being informed of his son's birth by Suddhodana, the Bodhisatta resolves to leave the household life immediately, exclaiming: "A fetter is born, a bond is born! (raahu jaato, bandhana.m jaata.m) ... Just as the glory of the solar and lunar mansions is obscured by the asura king Raahu, even so a peril has arisen to my renunciation and going forth." (Apadaana Atthakathaa 325). Best wishes, Dhammanando #65673 From: han tun Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Art or Asubha? '-Kamma Strikes Back!'( Re: some points on art) hantun1 Dear Mike (and Sarah), Thank you very much for your two messages 65669 and 65670. Your comments are never shallow, and I really appreciate your posts. I hope to have more discussions with you. With metta and respect, Han --- m_nease wrote: > Hi Again Han (and Sarah), > > > Thank you, Han, a very worthy reply to my somewhat > shallow comments. > > mike > > #65674 From: connie Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nichiconn dear Howard, I am interested in this "hardening of the heart" thing... some concretization of the compositional aspects presenting the elemental material form of that (less vital?) organ within the chest cavity or do you perhaps mean that the citta lacks pliancy, malleability - some such calcification possibly suggesting hardened view or the end of conscious experience as with single aggregate existence? by the way, which of the two misapplications are you suggesting? not altogether playful, connie So one who aspires to be stainless & sorrowless shouldn't make anything in the world dear anywhere. I believe there are two ways to misapply this: 1) To take 'dear' to mean the same as 'loved', and 2) To think that the way to end attachment is by hardening the heart. #65675 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:24 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch Hi Phil, ------------------- Ph: > I thought you were saying that the Buddha didn't urge his followers to meditate. (ie. by sitting at the root of a tree etc with legs folded, spine erect etc.) There sometimes seems to be a denial that there was such an exhortation from the Buddha. In one talk, when Jon asks Acharn Sujin about the "there are the roots of trees ...(snip) meditate or you will regret it" verse, she says "The Buddha pointed out." ---------------------- According to various suttas, the world is just a few namas and rupas arising together at one of the six doorways. Having existed fleetingly and performed their functions, they immediately fall away forever. Did the Buddha want us to take those suttas literally? Some would say 'Yes he did,' and they would remind us that the momentary world to which his Dhamma points is arising NOW. Others would say 'No he did not,' and they would say his Dhamma instructed persisting beings to carry out courses of action in the conventionally known world. ------------------------------- Ph: > No, the Buddha didn't "point out", he exhorted. -------------------------------- We could say that the Buddha exhorted panna to see the momentary world (which is arising now). That wouldn't deny his "pointing out" that world. It would be another way of saying the same thing. If we were to insist that the Buddha exhorted "persisting beings" to "do things" then we would have to reject the momentary world to which the Dhamma points. We would have accept the conventionally known, persisting world. And no, we can't have it both ways. :-) ------------------------------------------------ Ph: > Whether modern teachers and students meditate with proper motivation and understanding is another matter, one that I still question as I get into meditation. But no question whatsoever that the Buddha urged his , which does not mean contemplate or reflect in daily life. (Though these are also deeply helpful.) ------------------------------------------------ Just repeating: the Buddha did not urge persisting beings to do anything. 'Anything' includes contemplation and reflection just as much as it includes formal meditation. There is the common misconception that the Buddha told us to interrupt the normal flow of dhammas in order to practice insight development. But the way of intervening beings is not right way. The right way is to understand that the Buddha, by "pointing out" the world, exhorted panna and other kusala namas to hear about, reflect upon, or directly see, the dhammas that are arising now. It doesn't matter when or where in the course of daily life "now" is. Ken H #65676 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 11/26/06 9:01:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > dear Howard, > > I am interested in this "hardening of the heart" thing... some > concretization of the compositional aspects presenting the elemental > material form of that (less vital?) organ within the chest cavity or do > you perhaps mean that the citta lacks pliancy, malleability - some such > calcification possibly suggesting hardened view or the end of conscious > experience as with single aggregate existence? > > by the way, which of the two misapplications are you suggesting? > > not altogether playful, > connie > > > > > So one who aspires > to be stainless &sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere. > > I believe there are two ways to misapply this: > > 1) To take 'dear' to mean the same as 'loved', and > 2) To think that the way to end attachment is by hardening the > heart. > ====================== Connie, you don't know the sense of "hardening the heart"? The dictionary gives "to make callous". It results in a person who is "hard hearted". The expression is quite common and well understood. Hardening the heart is a purposeful suppression of love, a looking away that is aversive, running from human warmth in oneself due either to being seduced by hate, or, more often, to having been hurt too much, or, frequently, out of a fear of being hurt. It is not being awake and aware, but oppositely, a shutting off of higher emotional impulses, often out of cowardice, and sometimes because ones impulses are deemed less than perfect, in which case it is a throwing out the baby with the bath water. I don't understand your question "by the way, which of the two misapplications are you suggesting?" I don't suggest either. I suggest avoiding both. I suggest that love is possible without attachment, but that love with attachment is preferable to no love at all, and in all but the fully enlightened, some attachment remains. With metta, Howard #65677 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:50 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch Hi Connie, ----------------- C: > Not a single Bare insight-worker / "non-meditator" in the whole group of 500 Cream of the Crop Arahants making up the First Council... so yeah, why wouldn't these guys think to add (sorry, bias!) - include - formal meditation instructions in the True Dhamma and Discipline? Just agreeing with you - I think. --------------------- Well said, thank you Connie. And, yes, if I had put so well myself you would have been in complete agreement. :-) I suppose someone could still argue that the Buddha and his arahants did indeed practice formal vipassana meditation but omitted, for some unknown reason, to include instructions in the Tipitaka. Sorry to keep quoting Htoo when he is not here to correct me, but I think he admitted he was in that invidious position. That is, where he had to rely on that shaky argument. And it was, of course, very honest of him to say so. Not everyone will admit (sorry, bias!) - agree - that the instructions are not there. And the inevitable debates do become repetitive. But I love 'em. :-) The Middle Way is a way of understanding! It is not a way of people and things to do! That's why there are no instructions - only explanations! -------------------------------- C: > I thought the point in my own words rude so kept it to myself, but it was that as far as I know, "Meditators" sure do like to talk about how it's done. Of course, most folks aren't proper Masters now, are they? To my thinking, there's great meditation instruction in this sutta quoted in the Vism under Recollection of the Law (Path of Purity, p249): << ...As has been said: "Brahmin, one who is lustful, overcome by lust, whose mind is posessed by lust, meditates harm to himself, meditates harm to others, meditates harm to both. He experiences mental pain and grief. When lust is put away he does not meditate harm to himself, does not meditate harm to others, does not meditate harm to both. He does not experience mental pain and grief. Thus, brahmin, is the Law thoroughly seen". {footnote: Or 'seen here-and-now'. Anguttara i,156} ----------------------------------- Thank you for unearthing another gem. What would we do without you? Ken H #65678 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:53 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) gazita2002 dear Sarah, this is quite fascinating, that one who has seemingly well developed insight, still can go astray. I remember feeling this similar suprise during one of the Bkk sessions. Guess its because I still have 'wobbly' understanding about the dev. of insight. There is noone now just as much as there is noone then at the stage of tender insight, and that depending on conditions at the time 'one' can become very attached to 'his/her' wisdom and knowledge. Correct me if I've made this too simple, I'm sure its not but somehow thats about as far as my understanding reaches - so to speak. Always that wonderful catch 22, lots of work to do but no0ne to do it - ummmm Hope your snake rash is getting better. I had a friend who had similar and every noise was very painful as well. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > =============================================== > The Stages of Insight contd > > Even after the third stage of insight has been reached, insight is > still "tender insight" (taruùa vipassanå). When insight is merely > "tender" a person can still deviate from the eightfold Path. > > The Visuddhimagga (XX, 105) mentions "imperfections" which can > arise: someone may cling to his understanding, to tranquillity or > to the assurance he has due to this beginning insight. He may > forget that also understanding is only a conditioned reality which > is not self. Or he may erroneously think that he has attained > enlightenment already and thus he may get stuck in his > development. > ***** > The Stages of Insight to be contd > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #65679 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:11 pm Subject: Fine Faith is the Entrance! bhikkhu5 Friends: Faith is the Entrance to what later Enlightens! Faith comes mostly from the heart and less from the intellect. Faith - in itself - is blind, but it initiates repeated observation, that later grows into confidence and when fully confirmed it culminates in conviction. Then the Faith has become Knowledge! What is the cause of Faith? Suffering is proximate cause of Faith! When in pain we seek! The 4 Factors of Stream-Entry is the Origin of Faith. What are the four factors of Stream-Entry leading to Nibbana? Buddha once explained: Here, householder, the Noble Disciple possesses confirmed faith, confidence & conviction in the Buddha in this way: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher & guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened & enlightened is the Buddha!!! He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma in this way: Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here & now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each and everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine & verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable and realizable by each intelligence... He also possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha in this way: Perfectly training is the Noble Sangha of the Buddha's disciples: The right way, the true way, the good way and the direct way! Therefore do these eight kinds of individuals, the four Noble pairs, deserve gifts, self-sacrifice, offerings, hospitality & reverential salutation with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable & forever unsurpassed Field of Merit, in this world, for this world, to honour, and support... He possesses the Morality esteemed by the Noble ones: Unbroken, untorn, unspotted, unmottled, freeing, praised by the clever, natural, leading to mental concentration, & absorption... These 4 factors of Stream-Entry does the Noble Disciple possess!!! Faith is the Entrance! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65680 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:11 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 592- The Stages of Insight(n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd The imperfections of insight can only be overcome by continuing to be mindful of all kinds of realities which appear. If one realizes that also insight knowledge is only a conditioned nåma there will be less clinging to it. There is no self who can induce the arising of the stages of insight nor exert control over them. Those who are no longer deluded because of the imperfections of insight, know what is the right path and what is not the right path (Vis. XX, 129). If one does not deviate from the right path anymore insight can develop and then a following stage of insight can be reached. This is the first stage of “principal insight” (mahåvipassanå), namely, the Knowledge of the Arising and Falling away of Nåma and Rúpa (udayabbhayå ñåùa). As we have seen, at the third stage of “tender insight” paññå realizes the succession of nåmas and rúpas which arise and fall away very rapidly. However, at this stage paññå is not keen enough yet to see the danger and disadvantage of the arising and falling away of realities. At the first stage of principal insight paññå realizes more clearly and more precisely the arising and the falling away of a nåma and a rúpa as it appears one at a time, and there can be more detachment from them. Although realities are more clearly understood at each subsequent stage of insight, the knowledge which was gained has to be applied and one has to continue to be mindful of nåma and rúpa. Only thus the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå will be penetrated more deeply. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65681 From: han tun Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! hantun1 Bhante, Bhante wrote: What is the cause of Faith? Suffering is proximate cause of Faith! When in pain we seek! ------------------------------ Han: In SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html the Buddha said: "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply. Bhante had referred to the above sutta. However, in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, translation revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the proximate cause of faith (saddhaa) is given as something to place faith in (saddheyya-vatthu). Therefore, I humbly seek your advice which proximate cause I have to take? Respectfully, Han --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > Faith is the Entrance to what later Enlightens! > > Faith comes mostly from the heart and less from the > intellect. > > Faith - in itself - is blind, but it initiates > repeated observation, > > that later grows into confidence and when fully > confirmed it > > culminates in conviction. Then the Faith has become > Knowledge! > > > > What is the cause of Faith? > > Suffering is proximate > > cause of Faith! When in pain we seek! > #65682 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi Ken > According to various suttas, the world is just a few namas and rupas > arising together at one of the six doorways. Having existed fleetingly > and performed their functions, they immediately fall away forever. See Nina's excellent post the other day. Different suttas for different times. I love the suttas in SN - t hey are ever-so- Abdhidamma. But not all suttas make the ultimate realities you describe above as the object of understanding, not by any means. In Anguttara Nikaya, they are mostly about people and what people should do to be more ethical, to be happier, to be disciples of the Buddha in conventional ways, which often involve comparing people to other people. > > Did the Buddha want us to take those suttas literally? Some would say > 'Yes he did,' and they would remind us that the momentary world to > which his Dhamma points is arising NOW. Others would say 'No he did > not,' and they would say his Dhamma instructed persisting beings to > carry out courses of action in the conventionally known world. Yes, there you go. Many suttas do, many suttas don't. That's what makes the Dhamma so rich, so amazingly rich. Check in on this richness, let go of your obsesssion with all things ultimate. Rich, down to earth Dhamma involving people *and* paramttha dhammas. That is the way it must be for those of us who have shallow, non- penetrative understanding. Thinking about having penetrative understanding is not having penetrative understanding, so I wouldn't lean on it too heavily, I think. That's why I got out of Acharn Sujin's influence. Too much thinking about having penetrative understanding. I probably misunderstood, but that's what I was doing. Clinging to that kind of thinking. Doesn't apply to everyone or anyone except me. Now I am not thinking so much. The Dhamma is sliding down from my brain into my body. (MIght be because of the abdominal breathing in the Mahasi method - man, I feel energetic these days! Definitely clinging to it, but at least there is less thinking. > > ------------------------------- > Ph: > No, the Buddha didn't "point out", he exhorted. > -------------------------------- > > We could say that the Buddha exhorted panna to see the momentary world > (which is arising now). No, he exhorted monks to follow his instructions in a way that would condition the development of panna. He didn't exhort panna, I don't think. Yes, it's true that he had the gift to see how developed panna was in this audience, so maybe you have a point. That wouldn't deny his "pointing out" that > world. It would be another way of saying the same thing. > > If we were to insist that the Buddha exhorted "persisting beings" to > "do things" then we would have to reject the momentary world to which > the Dhamma points. We would have accept the conventionally known, > persisting world. > > And no, we can't have it both ways. :-) We have no choice but to have it both ways, at best. If you think that you can have it the ultimate reality way and only the ultimate reality way I think it is a bit of a thinking man's fantasy, to tell the truth. Too much, too soon. If there is self at the heart of meditation that sits patiently and observes whatever comes, without resisting, what on earth is at work in the mind that thinks it *must* see ultimate realities. Anyways, I'll leave it at that. Last word to you. Phil #65683 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:02 am Subject: Getting stream-enterer in this (Was: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor .. jwromeijn Hallo all (and a special remark to Jon at the end) In the thread ending with 65654 Jon and I had a discussion about the question: is sudden awakening (I prefer the term 'awakening' more then 'enlightenment') possibble ? We agreed that there are many examples in the Suttas of people meeting the Buddha or hearing a teaching of the Buddha directly or after a short time got stream-enterer (sotapanna) or even arahant. What we didn't agree was about the question: is this possible as a 'result' of what has happened in this lifetime. Jon: "As to whether there is found in the Sutta Pitaka any words from the Buddha's mouth mentioning insight developed in previous lifetimes as being the foundation for enlightenment in the presently lifetime, I'm sure there is but I don't have a reference handy." And "We were discussing whether Sariputta could have acquired a deep knowledge of conditions etc. entirely within that lifetime. I (Jon) was saying that in my view the answer must be 'No' because he had not come across the teachings until meeting Ven Assaji, shortly before he attained enlightenment." I (Joop) think that many times in the Suttas getting sotapanna or arahant is described as the effect of hearing a teaching of the Buddha, without mentioning any preparation in a previous life. So my question is: are there (many) descriptions in the Suttas (so the commentaries do not count) that an explanation of the awakening of somebody is given in terms of the result of previous lifetimes ? I think not. None of the Suttas referred to 'stream-entry' in the Index of BB's translation of the SN does mention previous lifes. According Thanissaro Bhikkhu the experience of stream-entry is called 'the arising of the Dhamma-eye' (www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream1.html and www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html) Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the wanderer: "Whatever phenomena arise from a cause: Their cause & their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative." Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." (And he was an arahant) Also is the Suttas more quiet paths or given: The practices leading to stream entry are encapsulated in four factors: " Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream- entry." SN 55.5 Another (more 'technical') description of the path is given with the 'fetter' method: For the sotapanna, the arising of the Dhamma eye — with its insight into the causal principles underlying the origination and cessation of stress — is what cuts through the first three fetters. " He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices." MN 2 My evaluation: releasing the fetter of self-identity view is difficult but not impossible in one life releasing the fetter of doubt is difficult but not impossible in one life releasing the fetter of grasping at precepts & practices is easy, especially for somebody who doesn't care at all for rituals (like me). Metta Joop Jon, I hope you will accept that I take this topic out of our discussion what got to much directions. About DO our discussion had to much repetition. About 'discursive thinking' and its relation to panna an contemplation: gives to much definition-problems. #65684 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:19 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi again Just to clarify re the below >That's why I got out of Acharn > Sujin's influence. Too much thinking about having penetrative > understanding. The "too much thinking about having penetrative understanding" is referring to me, not Acharn Sujin - I don't think she's greedy for understanding, nor are her students, necessarily. I was just talking about myself. So I have let that aspect go for a bit...(Ironically enough, in meditation I find far less desire for insight - so far. I'm afraid that will change...) Phil #65685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:36 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 117, and Tiika. nilovg Vis. Ch XVII, 117. Intro: Also this section reminds us of the danger of different kinds of wrong view that arise due to ignorance. One is bound to take understanding and ignorance for self. Or one may believe in fatalism: everything has been fixed by fate and this cannot be altered. ************** Text Vis.: When he is confused about dependently-arisen states, instead of taking the occurrence of formations to be due to ignorance, etc., he figures that it is a self that knows or does not know, -------- N: He takes understanding and ignorance for self. The Tiika adds that he has desire to have the quality of wisdom (buddhigu.na). He desires to have the wisdom leading to enlightenment without cultivating the right conditions leading to it. ------- Text Vis.: that acts and causes action, that appears in rebirth-linking, ------- N: The Tiika adds that he, hereafter, will experience happiness and sorrow. He thinks of a self who will be reborn and experience happiness and sorrow. Therefore, he performs kusala and akusala with the wrong view of self. -------- Text Vis.: and he figures that atoms, an Overlord, etc., shape its body in the various states of the embryo and endow it with faculties, --------- N: As to the expression ‘shape his body’ (sa.n.thapenta, shaping) this refers to being generated, and the word ‘endow’ (sampaadenta, endowing) this refers to his desire. When he is endowed with the sense faculties he clings to all the sense objects that he experiences. The Tiika comments on ‘he’ (so) as a being with the wrong perception of self (attasa~n~nito). ---------- Text Vis.: and that, when it has been endowed with faculties, it touches, feels, craves, clings, and endeavours, and that it becomes anew in the next becoming; --------- N: As to the expression, endowed with faculties (indriyasampanno), the Tiika adds, with the eye etc. and it states that by this the occurring of six aayatanas is taught. All this occurs according to conditions (yathaapaccaya.m) and due to ignorance he performs kamma, while he is bewildered with wrong view (di.t.thigatiko vimuyhati). ----------- Text Vis.: or he figures thus, 'All beings ... [are] moulded by fate, coincidence and nature' (D.i,53). ---------------- N: The Tiika compares being moulded by fate with a row of unbreakable jewels strung along an uncuttable thread. Fate (niyati) fixes beings’ destiny very firmly, according to a person who has such belief. The Tiika adds that (according to his belief) fate fixes the past and the future pubbaapariya). As to the expression ‘ fate, coincidence and nature' (niyatisa”ngatibhaava), the text refers to D., no 2, ‘The Fruits of the Life of a Recluse”. This is translated here (by Ven. Bodhi) as: ‘undergoing transformation by destiny, circumstance and nature...’ The Commentary to this sutta explains circumstance (sangati) as: ‘going here and there among the six classes of men.’ The Tiika to the Visuddhimagga elaborates that he comes to rebirth among men or devas that are going through the air (manussadevaviha”nga). The Commentary to the Diigha Nikaaya, explains ‘nature’ (bhaava), as the inner nature (sabhaava). The translator, Ven. Bodhi, states in a footnote: ---------- Conclusion: The words of the text, ‘instead of taking the occurrence of formations to be due to ignorance, etc., he figures that it is a self that knows or does not know’ are a pertinent reminder not to take both understanding and ignorance for self. These are realities of daily life and when they occur they should not be neglected as objects of awareness and understanding. There are bound to be many moments of unawareness and ignorance but such moments can be realized as dhammas arising because of their own conditions. Instead of trying to change them they should be understood as they are. Gradually we may be able to see the difference between the moments of unawareness and of awareness. When it is understood what sati is, there are conditions for its growth. In this section it is explained that ignorance can lead to many kinds of wrong view, such as the belief that atoms or a creator endows a person with the sense faculties, or fatalism. As we read, ‘ when it has been endowed with faculties, it touches, feels, craves, clings, and endeavours, and that it becomes anew in the next becoming’. With these words, the Dependent Origination has been rendered in brief, but due to wrong view it seems that a lasting being traverses the cycle. We read that a person, endowed with the faculties, experiences objects, and that due to phassa, contact, there is feeling. Feeling leads to craving (tanhaa), and this leads to clinging (upaadana), and this to activity. Kamma that is performed produces rebirth. It is explained here that a person with wrong view believes that a self contacts an object, feels, craves, clings, and endeavours, and that it becomes anew in the next becoming. Or, he figures, as the text states, that this whole process occurring in the cycle is fixed by fate, circumstance and nature. We are bound to think with anxiety of ‘our next life’ and the happiness or sorrow we shall experience in the future. However this is not according to the truth. Also at this moment there is no being that exists, there are nama and rupa arising and falling away. Kusala and akusala arising in this life are accumulated and will condition the arising of kusala and akusala in the future, also in future lives. Right understanding of conditions for whatever arises now and in the future will prevent fatalism. The Buddha taught the eightfold Path and the right conditions leading out of the cycle can be cultivated. We can begin with its development from this moment on. ******** Nina. #65686 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:52 am Subject: Getting stream-enterer in this (Was: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor .. nidive Hi Joop, > So my question is: are there (many) descriptions in the Suttas (so > the commentaries do not count) that an explanation of the awakening > of somebody is given in terms of the result of previous lifetimes ? > I think not. None of the Suttas referred to 'stream-entry' in the > Index of BB's translation of the SN does mention previous lifes. Putting aside our differences on rebirth and cycles in D.O., I think you hit the nail on this one. Kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result is not said to accumulate over multiple lifetimes simply because they are not fabrications or mental fermentations. -------------------------------------------------------------------- § 29. "These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result; kamma that is bright with bright result; kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result; and kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. "And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication... an injurious verbal fabrication... an injurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an injurious world where he is touched by injurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result. "And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an uninjurious bodily fabrication... an uninjurious verbal fabrication... an uninjurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an uninjurious world where he is touched by uninjurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Ever-radiant Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result. "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The intention right there to abandon this kamma that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma." — AN 4.232 § 30. "And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." — AN 4.237 -------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the implication of these two suttas are very important. (I understand that the term 'rearises' means 'rebirth' or 'cycles', and that may not be to your liking.) > My evaluation: > releasing the fetter of self-identity view is difficult but not > impossible in one life > releasing the fetter of doubt is difficult but not impossible in one > life > releasing the fetter of grasping at precepts & practices is easy, > especially for somebody who doesn't care at all for rituals Fantastically agreed. Regards, Swee Boon #65687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nilovg Dear Robert, thank you for your post, appreciated as always. I hope you pop up more often in dsg:-) I have never wanted to suggest that there is danger in anatta. What I did and do want to emphasize is that it is difficult to penetrate the real meaning of anatta. If we are constantly *thinking*: 'there are only nama and rupa and they are anatta', we have to be careful and ask ourselves whether we are truthful and consistent. But I am sure you also see this. Of course, anatta is most essential in the Buddha's teachings, and, as you know, I am both in my study, my writings and my personal life constantly concerned with trying to understand and to realize it. Lodewijk has with keen attention followed this discussion and he writes the following: What bothers me and Nina is that too often stressing and, sometimes out of context, insisting on anatta can lead to neglect other aspects of the teachings like metta and the other perfections, thus making our normal daily life difficult to live. It is for this reason that we want to stress in this respect the importance of the Middle Way, of balance, of acknowledging that the Buddha's teachings will always have to be realized in daily life, in the society with other human beings. So long as we have not realized the Truth of anatta, like the sotapanna has, we use the word anatta, but we should remember that we only have theoretical understanding. But of course we should continue to study and try to penetrate the Truth of anatta, Lodewijk. Op 25-nov-2006, om 16:57 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > I must admit I am perplexed by the tightrope analogy you and Howard > use.. #65688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:13 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo nilovg Dear Azita and Phil, Azita, I appreciate very much your sincere post: Azita, exactly as it is. What is catch 22, is it starting from scratch? I think often of this. Phil, I agree, we have shallow understanding, well said. You and Azita are both truthful, and truthfulness is an essential perfection. This morning I heard Kh Sujin say: we repeat the name lobha, lobha, but we do not know its characteristic. She helps us to see that thinking is thinking, not awareness. She helps us to start from the beginning, no illusions about penetrative understanding. Listening, listening and considering the Dhamma are the conditions for more understanding. She also sayas that something that is difficult cannot be made into something easy. First comes the first stage of insight: know nama and rupa, know their different characteristics. At this moment we cannot know precisely citta and cetasika. The different sobhana cetasikas and akusala cetasikas. We can say the same about repeating the word anatta. As you said: thinking is not the same as penetrative understanding. Kh Sujin always insisted on this. You also wondered about her words, detachment from the beginning. This means: no clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be different from what they are. Thus, when delusion arises, understand it, instead of not wanting it as object of awareness. That is a degree of detachment, and there are many degrees. Actually, as you know, each kusala citta is accompanied by alobha. Is there anything not clear yet? I like your expression: 'too much too soon' concerning only emphasizing ultimate realities. This is what I discussed with Lodewijk. This is a forum where different people emphasize different aspects, and we can learn from these aspects, they make us consider the truth. Nina. Op 27-nov-2006, om 13:00 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > That > is the way it must be for those of us who have shallow, non- > penetrative understanding. Thinking about having penetrative > understanding is not having penetrative understanding, so I wouldn't > lean on it too heavily, I think. That's why I got out of Acharn > Sujin's influence. Too much thinking about having penetrative > understanding. I probably misunderstood, but that's what I was > doing. #65689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:14 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas nilovg Hi Phil, O.K. I got your rectification. Nina. Op 27-nov-2006, om 15:19 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > The "too much thinking about having penetrative understanding" is > referring to me, not Acharn Sujin - I don't think she's greedy for > understanding, nor are her students, necessarily. I was just talking > about myself #65690 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:48 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nidive Hi Antony, > "So one who aspires > to be stainless & sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere." > The Sage is unsupported everywhere > making neither "dear" nor those "undear," > sorrow then and meanness do not stain, > as water settles not on (lotus) leaf. > A sage who is completely independent > does not make close friends or enemies. > In him sorrow and selfishness do not stay, > like water on a lotus leaf. Indeed. The ceasing of all emotional attachments is blissful. How is it possible that a husband shall not be separated from his wife, a wife shall not be separated from her husband, a father shall not be separated from his son, a son shall not be separated from his father, a mother shall not be separated from her daughter, a daughter shall not be separated from her mother, a bosom friend shall not be separated from oneself? Sakka, ruler of the gods, said thus at the parinibbana of the Buddha: Inconstant are compounded things! Their nature to arise & pass away. They disband as they are arising. Their total stilling is bliss. And the Buddha said thus: Over and over, the seeds all get planted; Over and over, the rain-god sprinkles rain. Over and over, the farmer farms the field; Over and over, the food grows in the realm. Over and over, beggars do their begging; Over and over, the givers give out gifts. Over and over, the giver who has given; Over and over, goes to a better place. Over and over, he tires and he struggles; Over and over, the fool goes to the womb. Over and over, he's born and he dies; Over and over, they bear him to his grave. But one who's wisdom is wide as the earth Is not born over and over, For he's gained the path Of not becoming over again. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn07/sn07.012.olen.html Regards, Swee Boon #65691 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:33 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nichiconn Hi again, Howard, > > So one who aspires > to be stainless &sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere. > > I believe there are two ways to misapply this: > > 1) To take 'dear' to mean the same as 'loved', and > 2) To think that the way to end attachment is by hardening the > heart. > ====================== H: Connie, you don't know the sense of "hardening the heart"? c: No, I don't get it. What is hardening? More Earth & Water than Fire & Air. But you don't have faith in the existence of external rupas, so it's alright if you think me heartless. So... citta, then. Janis: Take another cetasika now, baby. (giggle) H: The dictionary gives "to make callous". It results in a person who is "hard hearted". The expression is quite common and well understood. c: the pumping action expressing blood from the chambers is a result of the hardening of this heart that beats one to death. It must needs be callous? unfeeling? H: Hardening the heart is a purposeful suppression of love, a looking away that is aversive, running from human warmth in oneself due either to being seduced by hate, or, more often, to having been hurt too much, or, frequently, out of a fear of being hurt. It is not being awake and aware, but oppositely, a shutting off of higher emotional impulses, often out of cowardice, and sometimes because ones impulses are deemed less than perfect, in which case it is a throwing out the baby with the bath water. c: so dosa (fear, hate, aversion) drives this "purposeful suppression" to shut off "higher emotion impulses"? Javana is what is awake and aware? also, i question the notion of human warmth. is that love? a physical condition again? Johnny Cash: Right. Love is a burning thing. c: thank you. that explains the callous. H: I don't understand your question "by the way, which of the two misapplications are you suggesting?" I don't suggest either. c: just wondered. first the misapplication of asubha and now these two... H: I suggest avoiding both. c: An avoidance as in "looking away that is aversive"? H: I suggest that love is possible without attachment, but that love with attachment is preferable to no love at all, and in all but the fully enlightened, some attachment remains. c: not sure what love is but i hate tickling. peace, connie #65692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:30 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daiy Life 134 nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga (XI, 30) states: "What is meant? Just as the butcher, while feeding the cow, bringing it to the shambles, keeping it tied up after bringing it there, slaughtering it, and seeing it slaughtered and dead, does not lose the perception ``cow'' so long as he has not carved it up and divided it into parts; but when he has divided it up and is sitting there, he loses the perception ``cow'' and the perception ``meat'' occurs; he does not think ``I am selling cow'' or ``They are carrying cow away'', but rather he thinks ``I am selling meat'' or ``They are carrying meat away''; so too this bhikkhu, while still a foolish ordinary person--both formerly as a layman and as one gone forth into homelessness--, does not lose the perception ``living being'' or ``man'' or ``person'' so long as he does not, by resolution of the compact into elements, review this body, however placed, however disposed, as consisting of elements. But when he does review it as consisting of elements, he loses the perception ``living being'' and his mind establishes itself upon elements..." It may not be appealing to see the body as elements. We think of people as ``this man'' or ``that woman''. We are not used to analysing what we take for a ``person'' just as we analyse matter, for example, in physics. We might find it crude to think of a body which is carved up and divided up into parts, just as a cow is carved up by a butcher. However, if we consider the body as it is, there are only elements. Isn't it true that there are solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion? Are these realities ``self'', or are they elements devoid of ``self''? Do the four elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion have anything to do with our daily life? We can find out that these elements arise all the time. Temperature can appear either as heat or cold; do we not feel heat or cold very often? When we are stung by an insect we can experience the characteristic of heat. We can feel impact of hardness or softness on our body when we are lying down, sitting, walking or standing. That is the element of solidity appearing in our daily life. If we are mindful of the characteristics of the elements more often, we will see things as they are. The Buddha reminded people of the truth in many different ways. Sometimes he spoke about the body as a corpse in different stages of dissolution. Or he spoke about the ``parts of the body'' and he explained that the body is full of impurities, in order to remind people that what they take for ``my body'' are only elements which are devoid of beauty, which are impermanent, dukkha and not self. ******** NIna. #65693 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:33 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana I,7. nilovg Dear friends, Seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are followed by thinking which thinks about what was experienced. We are absorbed in the concepts we are thinking of. Khun Sujin said that it takes time to realize that one lives with one's own thoughts, in one's own world of thinking. It is useful to know about the function of the cetasika vitakka, which can be translated as thinking. It accompanies many cittas, though not every citta. It "touches" the object which is experienced, or it leads citta to the object, so that citta can experience it. We read in the suttas about vitakka which is akusala: thinking with desire, with hate and with cruelty. We also read about vitakka which is sobhana (beautiful): thinking with detachment (nekkhamma), with non-aversion or kindness, and with non-violence. There is right thinking, sammå-sankappa, of the eightfold Path. It "touches" the object of awareness, a nåma or a rúpa, so that paññå can know it as it is. If we do not know that thinking is due to the activity of vitakka we are bound to take it for self. We think most of the time with akusala citta, we can become confused by the stories we create ourselves. Someone wrote to me that he was infatuated with his own fantasies which went on for a long time. He found himself a mean person because of that. If one thinks of oneself as a mean person one takes one's akusala for "self". One can learn from such experiences that thinking is beyond control, anattå. Defilements arise because there are conditions for their arising. The writer of the letter thought that his fantasies were the consequence of the education he had had. However, this is merely a "story" one may think of but which does not explain the deepest cause. It can happen to all of us that we suddenly, for no apparent reason, have very ugly thoughts, thoughts of jealousy or even thoughts of hatred, and we may wonder where these come from. There were countless lives before this life, and during these lives we accumulated many defilements. We do not know what our past lives were like, but during the cycle there must have been births as an animal. The defilements of all past lives have been accumulated from moment to moment and they can arise at any time with akusala citta, they can even motivate bad deeds. We experience sense objects usually with akusala cittas since we accumulated such an extent of akusala. When we notice our defilements it is of no use to keep on thinking about them with aversion, then we will only accumulate more akusala. We can learn to develop right understanding also of akusala which arises, in order to see it as not self, only a conditioned reality. Khun Sujin explained: “We should be brave and encounter the reality at that very moment with right understanding, then there is right effort. It is difficult to follow the Middle Way, that is, to follow all realities naturally. Through right understanding one will see more clearly one's own akusala, also the more subtle attachment to sense objects.” ******* Nina. #65694 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - I suspect you DO like tickling. ;-) But I guess you don't really suspect that I take this matter to be an important one. Ah, well. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/27/06 1:41:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: (65691) > H: Connie, you don't know the sense of "hardening the heart"? > #65695 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:52 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nichiconn Dear Howard - Wrong on both counts. dead serious, connie I suspect you DO like tickling. ;-) But I guess you don't really suspect that I take this matter to be an important one. Ah, well. #65696 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:31 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! bhikkhu5 Dear Friend Han Tun: 1 single proximate cause is often an over-simplification: A simile: The phenomenon PLANT e.g. has 4 proximate causes: 1: Seed 2: Water 3: Earth 4: Light All are needed. So also with phenomenon FAITH: These factors can be pointed out as causation: 1: Suffering 2: Following Great Men 3: Hearing the True Dhamma 4: Having Good Friends Factor 1 squeezes one into faith so to say. Factor 2-3 produces faith with joy & elation. However it is true that a BASE-OBJECT (vatthu) have to be present! What is Faith? Ultimately it is being convinced about the perfect Enlightenment of the Gotama Buddha 2500 years ago… Therefore in periods where there is No Buddhas (like the next eon!) Faith cannot arise simply because of lack of BASE-OBJECT (vatthu)! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> Bhante, Bhante wrote: What is the cause of Faith? Suffering is proximate cause of Faith! When in pain we seek! ------------------------------ Han: In SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, http://www.accessto insight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html the Buddha said: "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply. Bhante had referred to the above sutta. However, in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, translation revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the proximate cause of faith (saddhaa) is given as something to place faith in (saddheyya-vatthu). Therefore, I humbly seek your advice which proximate cause I have to take? <....> #65697 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:58 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana I,7. philofillet Hi Nina and all > When we notice our defilements it is of no use to > keep on thinking about them with aversion, then we will only > accumulate more akusala. Yes, vitakka touches on this and that, beyond our control, doesn't it? But we can become better aware of what is going on. No need to be upset when akusala thoughts arise, but also not to take it as something that will never change because of accumulated tendencies etc. The Buddha did encourage us to train to change the way we think and said clearly that it can be done. > We can learn to develop right understanding > also of akusala which arises, in order to see it as not self, only a > conditioned reality. Well, I think seeing it as not self will come later, and thinking about it as a conditioned reality is a bit too much thinking when one is aware of an akusala thought. We can just let it be, and it subsides. That's what the Buddha says happened for him in MN 19, and at the risk of sounding insanely deluded I find it happens for me too! No need at such moments to think about anatta. But of course you didn't say *think* above, you said *see* Anyways, just thinking aloud above and I don't want to pester you with any more argumentative-sounding posts, so please feel free to disregard. But I do have a question below. I am interested these days in the vitakka > viccara progression. Again, though I am probably deluded, I think I have, at times, experienced something like a movement from vitakka to vicarra when meditating. Concentration settles a bit more on what is happening - the simile of the bee sucking on a flew rather than just landing on it - it feels a bit like that. What is the relationship between moment-to-moment concentration (khanica concentration) and vicarra? Also, what is the difference, if any, between this moment-to-moment concentration and the cetasika of concentration that is a universal cetasika. The way I have heard momem- to-moment concentration described, it spans more than one moment and more than one object... Thanks in advance. Phil > > "We should be brave and encounter the reality at that very moment > with right understanding, then there is right effort. > > #65698 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:08 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch Hi Phil, ------------------ <. . .> Ph: > But not all suttas make the ultimate realities you describe above as the object of understanding, not by any means. In Anguttara Nikaya, they are mostly about people and what people should do to be more ethical, to be happier, to be disciples of the Buddha in conventional ways, which often involve comparing people to other people. ------------------- It would be good to look at some examples. But you know what I would say: "These examples are to be understood as descriptions of paramattha dhammas. The Buddha said there were only paramattha dhammas - no selves, no beings. Why would he waste his time describing something that didn't exist?" ------------------------------------- KH: > > Did the Buddha want us to take those suttas literally? Some would say 'Yes he did,' Ph: > Yes, there you go. Many suttas do, many suttas don't. That's what makes the Dhamma so rich, so amazingly rich. Check in on this richness, let go of your obsesssion with all things ultimate. -------------------------------------- I am not sure if you have misunderstood me. I was saying some people do - not some suttas. Also, I would disagree with your view that some suttas teach a momentary reality while others don't. The way of teaching differs, but the Dhamma remains the same. Every word of the Tipitaka must be understood in terms of satipatthana, which is knowledge of (fleeting, not-self, conditioned) paramattha dhammas. -------------------------------- Ph: > Rich, down to earth Dhamma involving people *and* paramttha dhammas. That is the way it must be for those of us who have shallow, non- penetrative understanding. --------------------------------- I think both you and I regard ourselves as having shallow, non-penetrative understanding. But is that kind of thinking helpful in Dhamma study? Less thinking about self and more about conditioned dhammas is the way to go. Even so, I would like to assure you that, for me, life gets richer and more down to earth all the time. Learning about momentary, not-self reality has made life better, not worse. -------------------------------------------- Ph: > Thinking about having penetrative understanding is not having penetrative understanding, so I wouldn't lean on it too heavily, I think. That's why I got out of Acharn Sujin's influence. Too much thinking about having penetrative understanding. I probably misunderstood, but that's what I was doing. ----------------------------------------- Penetrative understanding is for the wise. If I am wise then that is what I will have. However, as a struggling beginner I will have something far less grand. But so what? In my blissful ignorance I am in no hurry to attain the complete cessation of dukkha. That is a priority of panna-cetasika. (There I go again talking about myself instead of paramattha dhammas. It only adds to the confusion.) :-) ---------------------- <. . .> Ph: If there is self at the heart of meditation that sits patiently and observes whatever comes, without resisting, what on earth is at work in the mind that thinks it *must* see ultimate realities. Anyways, I'll leave it at that. Last word to you. ---------------------- Flabbergasted! We need to talk about this. Ken H #65699 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:18 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet HI Nina (p.s to Matt and Jon) > This morning I heard Kh Sujin say: we repeat the name lobha, lobha, > but we do not know its characteristic. > She helps us to see that thinking is thinking, not awareness. She > helps us to start from the beginning, no illusions about penetrative > understanding. Listening, listening and considering the Dhamma are > the conditions for more understanding. She also sayas that something > that is difficult cannot be made into something easy. Yes, Acharn Sujin really helps us here. There isn't a day that goes by without the question "is there seeing now?" popping up. It is such a good question. My main objection with her approach is this idea that unless it is accompanied by an appreciation of not-self, abstaining from akusala has no benefit and is - to use Jon's words - only replacing one kind of akusala with another. That may be technically true (lobha or self- identity might deepen if we are thinking about being a better person) but to think of a world in which people hesitate to abstain from akusala because they think self is involved is a bit frightening. Fortunately, no matter what people say to make a point in a Dhamma discussion, I am very confident that they are guided by the ethical aspect of Dhamma that overrides deeper understanding and guides them safely into moral behaviour. Well, we don't even need Dhamma for that, I guess. > First comes the first stage of insight: know nama and rupa, know > their different characteristics. At this moment we cannot know > precisely citta and cetasika. The different sobhana cetasikas and > akusala cetasikas. This is another area in which I really appreciate Acharn Sujin. The Mahasi Sayadaw book I read makes it sound like this first stage of insight is something that can be achieved by diligently following meditation exercises for some time. I think that is incorrect, and probably has thrown a lot of people of track. I appreciate having been guided by Acharn Sujin on this point. Another very interesting and subtle area - deepening our understanding of when there is vipaka, and when there is javana. This is something I have not heard/read discussed elsewhere and is probably taken for granted. > We can say the same about repeating the word anatta. As you said: > thinking is not the same as penetrative understanding. Kh Sujin > always insisted on this. > You also wondered about her words, detachment from the beginning. > This means: no clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be > different from what they are. Ph: But sure this will happen no matter what. "Not clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be differnet from what they are" sounds like a very advanced kind of understanding/awareness to me. Surely it goes on all the time for us and will go on until...sotapanna? Which doesn't mean that I think that by some stroke of insight we become sotapanna and BINGO the anatta problem is solved. The detachment will come gradually. But I think "clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be different" goes on even when we are reflecting on *not* clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be different. So I really don't yet understand how there can be detachment from the beginning. But not to worry. I will keep reflecting on it, probably. Phil p.s Yes, as you say, each kusala is accompanied by alobha. Thanks for reminding me. That will help any reflection that arises today. p.s to Matt and Jon - gaargh. I thought today would be the day I would write to you but my time is up. I am savoring writing to you the way one savors a lovely snifter of cognac with coffee at the end of a good meal...oops....like one savors an Abhidhamma text at bedtime. #65700 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:25 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi Ken > Flabbergasted! We need to talk about this. More like babblegasted probably. Don't take anything I pour out too seriously. Well, than again, the things we babble often represent the truth of what we really think, so maybe it is something to take seriously. Anyways, as I just wrote to Matt and Jon my dance card is pretty full at a time when I am *still* trying to extricate myself from the internet, so can we talk again in the New Year, when I might see things more clearly? (I am in a bit of a flux now because this re- found enthusiasm for meditating and other intentional practices to train the mind ...best if things settle a bit.) Phil p.s speaking of training the mind, I liked your expression "mental trickery" and think that that is indeed what goes on. One Sayadaw used the expression "trick the mind" to describe what one does. You warn against it, of course, but it may have a role in Dhamma. Anyhoo, off I go. I do expect I will drop off the list for a few weeks at last to let things settle down and clarify a bit. #65701 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:32 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi again BTW, if your being flabbergasted has anyting to do with the "without resisting" below, I would rephrase it. Of course there is a resisting that goes on when one practices bare attention meditation. Whatever comes up, comes up, for if there was no resistance whatsoever to that nothing would change. THe resistance becomes gentler and gentler, I find. I think it's really beautiful and sometimes fills my heart with metta, or maybe karuna, when I reflect on how all the people out there who have never had the good fortune to be exposed to Dhamma go through life with their minds ablaze with greed, hatred and delusion. Oh dear, I just started crying thinking about that. But I stand by my suggestion that there can be a lot of self involved and a lot of craving involved in one's approach to understanding anatta. I'm sure you would agree there. Trying to hard to grasp anatta must surely be counterproductive. I was referring to what *I* did, not what you do, because I have no idea what really goes on in your noggin. Phil > Ph: If there is self at the heart of > meditation that sits patiently and observes whatever comes, without > resisting, what on earth is at work in the mind that thinks it > *must* see ultimate realities. > > Anyways, I'll leave it at that. Last word to you. > ---------------------- > > Flabbergasted! We need to talk about this. > > Ken H > #65702 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:56 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo philofillet Hi again >>>Whatever comes up, comes up, for if there was no resistance whatsoever to that nothing would change. Typo/miswrite. Whatever comes up, comes up but if there was no resistence whatsover to that which follows nothing would change... Phil #65703 From: han tun Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:10 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! hantun1 Bhante, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I have noted them carefully. One single proximate cause for faith can be an over-simplification. There can be many factors for the arising of faith. Base-object (vatthu) is also essential, as during the periods where there is no Buddhas (like the next eon), faith cannot arise simply because of lack of base-object (vatthu). Respectfully, Han #65704 From: "matt roke" Date: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Dear Howard and Jon, My apologies for the delay getting back to you both. I had some work deadlines and my son was in Bangkok for 10 days for the first time in over 2 years and my daughter was leaving for Sydney to enter university, so I have been tied up. ========================= ========================= >Jon: But a sotapanna is capable of acts of violence short of an intention >to kill. Does the explanation you've given here account for their being >able to commit those acts but not the act of killing? Matt: I think so, what else would account for it? Morality or appreciation of the result of kamma has not prevented the act of violence, so there is always a chance that they won’t stop the act of killing. I am not very interested in speculating on how much lobha or dosa a Sotapannas may or may not have because of accumulations. I understand that Sotapannas can never again have wrong view because they have insight into the impermanence of dhammas and so they no longer take concepts of self and people to be real. There may be conditions for them to have strong dosa because of strong attachment, but who can they kill if they understand that there is no self and no people? ========================= ========================= >Matt: Worldlings steal because there is a desire to have something that > >belongs to someone else or they may steal to correct what they think is >an >injustice (i.e. Robin Hood). >Howard: Often they steal simple because they *want* the item, Matt: I used *Desire* because I understood that it had the same meaning as *Want*. -------------------------------------------- >Howard: they don't care, or not sufficiently, about the other person's >rights and >welfare for that to prevent them from stealing. Matt: If they take what belongs to someone else I think it is rather obvious that they are indifferent to the other persons feelings or welfare, I don’t think it is necessary to have to spell out everything to the people on DSG, they get the point. --------------------------------------- >Howard: Believing that there really IS no other person would be a >convenient >excuse for the philosophically minded criminal. Matt: This assertion does not make any sense to me. I think you are grasping at straws. Are you trying to convince me that someone who believes that there is no other person may be dangerous because they MAY use this as an excuse to steal and kill? Are you not aware that throughout history people who believe that there are people, have robbed and plundered, murdered, caused acts of war and genocide, been involved in serial killings, blood feuds and mass murder, which have caused loss, death and misery for countless billions of people? If you are going to fear anyone, fear people who believe in people. A person who believes that there really IS no self and no other person would have to be a sotapanna or higher and they would not steal or kill. A worldling who intellectually appreciates that there is no self may steal or kill because there is still a belief in self. ========================= ========================= >Matt: Sotapannas can not steal because they no longer take the concept of > >owning something to be real, they clearly see that there are only dhammas >and >those dhammas do not stay, so there is nothing that can be owned or >stolen. >Howard: I think that it is because they cannot tolerate causing harm or >acting wrongly. Matt: *cannot tolerate* sounds more like aversion than insight wisdom. What is the difference between a sotapanna and a worldling, who have lobha and dosa and cannot tolerate causing harm or acting wrongly? ------------------------------------------- >Howard: They presumably don't take food as "real" either, but they DO eat, >don't they? Matt: Sotapannas, like arahants and the Buddha, still have concepts of people, things and actions, they just don’t take those concepts to be real. The rupas of visible object, touch, taste and smell are real, but the concept of food is not. ========================= ========================= >Matt: When a sotapanna observes a piece of fine jewelry they do not take >the concept of that jewelry to be a reality. They know that what is real >are the many moments of visible object, touch and thinking that arise and >fall away and create a concept of jewelry. They may have lobha for the >visible object or the concept of jewelry because of accumulations, >nevertheless there are no conditions for them to steal the item because >they know that dhammas do not stay, thus they cannot be possessed or taken. >Howard: Not having self-view is still a far cry from lacking any sense of >self. Stream enterers still have craving. Matt: Stream enterers do have craving, that’s why in my first posting to Phil I said they still have lobha and dosa, and in the passage above, I said *They may have lobha for the visible object or the concept of jewelry because of accumulations* Sotapannas experience lobha and dosa as dhammas that arise and fall away immediately and so they do not cling to them as my lobha or my dosa . . . so, no self-view and no sense of self. ========================= ========================= >Howard: As far as I'm concerned, cerebral nonexistence theorizing is no >substitute for the moral sense, and basing one's morality on it is quite >worrisome. Such "nonexistence" could be quite easily used for *excusing* >immoral actions just as handily! (Since there is "no one to be killed," it >doesn't matter if murder occurs.) Taking the notion of nonexistence to the >nihilist extreme actually leads to amorallity and an excuse for immorality. Matt: Here is a short list of people who believed that people did exist, at least until they got rid of them; Hitler, Starlin, Mao and Pol Pot. Between them they managed to wipe out close to 100 million of those people they believed existed, through wars, retribution and genocide. All you can come up with is a theory that someone with a no-self view MAY do something immoral. Saying that moral sense leads to morality is not something I consider very wise. That’s a concept that worldlings come up with without ever hearing or understanding dhamma. The Buddha’s teaching is very deep and requires profound wisdom for it to be understood. It should not be trivialized. ========================= ========================= >Matt: Wanting to be good and trying to be good does not necessarily make >one >a good person. >Howard: I don't care about *wanting* to be good, something which sounds >self-serving anyway. I care about *being* good because one don't for the >world >want to cause pain! Matt: You don’t care about WANTING to be good, but you don’t WANT to cause pain. I think both of these are lobha, and so is *caring about being good*. Until there is insight understanding that there is no self, nearly everything we do is self-serving. ========================= ========================= >Matt: I presume that you believe that kusala is good and that you try to >be a good person who does not do things that are hurtful. And yet you will >berate people and write sarcastic one-liners (while signing off with the >word metta) because their opinion is different to yours. >Howard: I nonetheless take exception to your ethics views, and I think I >have a >right to comment on that. I am very concerned about what I consider >a clinging >to view leading to views in the moral sphere that are based on >ontological >theories instead of kindness. I do *not* claim, nor have I, >that you are anything >other than a personally kind and moral person. It is >your views I've been >discussing, not "you". Matt: I never said or implied that you do not have the right to make comments on things that concern you. We were discussing wholesomeness and I was pointing out that although one might believe in developing wholesomeness that does not mean it will come about. People can only be unkind to people if there are concepts of people and self. Those who do not have these concepts will have kindness. ========================= ========================= >Matt: This, I understand, is conceit; because one thinks they are right and >the >others are wrong. It is attachment; because one takes the concepts to >be theirs >and they think that what they have written is clever. And it is >dosa; because there is intention to hurt. Metta on the other hand is about >friendship and kindness, and I would thing that if metta arose when you >wrote that word then you would not send the HURTFUL comments. >This is not a criticism of your actions, as that would be like the pot >calling the kettle black. I am simply making the point that no matter how >much we may WANT to be good or TRY to be good, and not do what is hurtful, >our attachment to the concept of a self conditions akusala, which can >prevent us from being that good person we may wish to be. >Howard: It seems that you think it is improper of me to take exception to a >person's views should that person be upset by my doing so. That makes no > >sense to me. It would require silence as the response to whatever one > >disagrees with. Matt: I don’t know where you got that idea from, I never made any such statement. You can say whatever you want to say and you can take exception to another person’s views even if it does upset them. You can even berate people and be sarcastic to them if you think it will get your kindness message across. ========================= ========================= >Howard: I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Matt. I regret any sarcasm I >might have used in writing to you, though I don't recall doing so. >If I wasn't soft enough in my original post to you on this subject, if I >should have used gentler language, I apologize for not having done so. It >was not my intention to hurt you, and I regret that you were upset. You don’t have to be sorry, be softer or use gentler language, your post neither hurt me nor was I upset. I must admit I don’t understand why you would want to champion kusala with akusala, especially since it was that sort of philosophy that instigated the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, and that Vietnam war logic *we had to destroy the village in order to save it*. However, I am fine with whatever approach you want to use. Matt #65705 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:23 am Subject: Getting stream-enterer in this (Was: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor .. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > ... Hallo Swee Boon, all Many thanks for your reaction. You say: I think the implication of these two suttas (AN 4.232 and AN 4.237) are very important. My intuition says it is, but I have not studied about 'kamma' enough to say clear what. Except one thing, that we had to do the Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. I know some DSG-participants don't like that word 'do', but to me we had to do it every time, every day, again; I only accept that 'right view' is partly a result (and partly Dhamma-study) that 'happens' to us. But perhaps you can say more what you mean with implication of these two suttas? Metta Joop #65706 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) sarahprocter... Dear Azita & all, --- gazita2002 wrote: > dear Sarah, > > this is quite fascinating, that one who has seemingly well > developed insight, still can go astray. I remember feeling this > similar suprise during one of the Bkk sessions. ... S: Yes, but temporarily only as I understand. By this stage he/she is already a 'cula sotapanna', a lesser sotapanna, destined to become a sotapanna. But still, according to accumulations, there may be doubt arising or moments of silabbataparamasa, for example. Just depends on accumulations as it does for us now too. There isn't going astray or wrong view arising all the time for any of us. .... > > Guess its because I still have 'wobbly' understanding about the > dev. of insight. There is noone now just as much as there is noone > then at the stage of tender insight, and that depending on conditions > at the time 'one' can become very attached to 'his/her' wisdom and > knowledge. Correct me if I've made this too simple, I'm sure its not > but somehow thats about as far as my understanding reaches - so to > speak. ... S: Right - never anyone. Just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. These can include attachment to wisdom or mistaking of one state for another and so on. At this stage, I don't believe there can be any doubt about conditioned dhammas, but still lots of ignorance and attachment. I believe it says in the texts that jhanas may be mistaken for enlightnement at such a time, for example. K.Sujin also gives the detail in 'Survey' on the stages of insight from her lectures. ... > > Always that wonderful catch 22, lots of work to do but no0ne to do > it - ummmm .... S: Yes, no one to do it, no one to find a 'balance', no one to have heart or not have heart, no one to learn to live with ultimate and conventional realities...merely conditioned dhammas rolling on. .... > Hope your snake rash is getting better. I had a friend who had > similar and every noise was very painful as well. .... S: The blisters have dried up and I'm now going through what is like a 'deep-burn' stage. I could list pages of bizarre symptoms, but the most prevalent have been the strong firework/cramping pains and the extreme skin sensitivity - (no bra for the last few weeks and I sleep in snatches, often on the floor without any sheet on my trunk, lying on a grill rack out of the oven. I get up looking like a piece of well-barbecued, well-marked chicken on both sides. Oh and we went to the beach today and I had upside-down plastic bowls stuffed under my shirt to stop the cloth contacting my skin:-). Also, some new kammic bodily experiencing of desirable and undesirable rupas. What used to feel comfortable in terms of temperature is now most undesirable and vice versa. After a forced 3 weeks or so out of water, I'm allowed in. The colder the better for me - I plunge into the sea wearing as little as is decent and don't feel cold afterwards either. Just as everyone else is moving into wet-suits and winter gear, I'm turning the air-conditioning up by several degrees. I came home the other day from doing some chores in a lot of discomfort and lay in a cold bath for 10 minutes. It didn't feel cold at all:-/ I laugh because it's all so very out of character. I'm usually the one that likes everything warm and snug as you'll recall. Slowly the skin is recovering, however and throughout it all, I've had pretty good humour:-). Could all be a lot, lot worse......Day by day, moment by moment....Yesterday's pain and sleepless night is all gone...Whatever the sounds or visible objects, they remain jsut that - sounds and visible objects. Greatly appreciating all the discussions here. It's been and remains quite hard to type - so thanks to everyone for assisting with the list in all aspects. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon and I have continued working on finishing the editing of the very long and excellent Bkk, Feb 2006 discussions, so these will be uploaded as soon as we've obtained some extra space on the dsg.org website. ============= #65707 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:01 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd There are nine stages of principal insight, mahå-vipassanå, in all according to the Visuddhimagga (XXI, 1)(1). In the course of the development of insight there will be more detachment from realities. Wrong views are more and more abandoned and there comes to be a clearer understanding of the fact that conditioned dhammas cannot be true happiness since they are liable to destruction and fall. The following stage of insight, the second stage of “principal insight” is Knowledge of Dissolution (in Påli: bhanga ñåùa). In order to be able to reach this stage paññå has to investigate thoroughly all the different kinds of realities appearing through the six doors. There must be mindfulness of whatever reality appears in whatever situation one may be. At this stage paññå pays more close attention to the falling away of realities and sees more clearly that they are no refuge. There is a beginning of detachment from the concept of self. *** 1) For details see Appendix 9. The way of counting of the stages of insight may vary depending on whether the counting starts at the first stage of principal insight or at the third stage of tender insight, and whether paññå arising in the process during which enlightenment occurs, paññå accompanying the lokuttara cittas and paññå which “reviews” after that process is over, is included or not. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65708 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) hantun1 Dear Azita and Sarah, > Azita: this is quite fascinating, that one who has seemingly well developed insight, still can go astray. I remember feeling this similar suprise during one of the Bkk sessions. ---------- Han: Azita, you must be familiar with the following sutta. Sn 2.1 Ratana Sutta: The Jewel Discourse, translated by Piyadassi Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.01.piya.html Quote: [ 9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness. 10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings. [7] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness. Notes: [6]. The reason why it is stated that there will be no eighth existence for a person who has attained the stage of sotapatti or the first stage of sanctity is that such a being can live at the most for only a period of seven existences in the realm of sense spheres. [7]. Abhithanani; i. matricide, ii. patricide, iii. the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones), iv. the shedding of the Buddha's blood, v. causing schism in the Sangha, and vi. pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi)] End Quote. ------------------------------ Han: It will be interesting to note that a sattakkhattu-parama-sotapanna (one who enters Nibbana after seven lives) is still capable of being exceedingly heedless (bhusan pamattaa), but he/she is incapable of committing major wrong doings that would make him/her reborn in four states of woe, and he/she will not be reborn more than seven times before he/she enters Nibbana. Azita, I hope to see you in Bangkok in January 2007. Metta, Han P.S. for Sarah. I am extremely sorry to know that you are still suffering from post-therapeutic neuralgia. I am praying for your complete recovery. #65709 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, The Text: 1) For details see Appendix 9. The way of counting of the stages of insight may vary depending on whether the counting starts at the first stage of principal insight or at the third stage of tender insight, and whether paññå arising in the process during which enlightenment occurs, paññå accompanying the lokuttara cittas and paññå which “reviews” after that process is over, is included or not. ---------------------------------- Han: If there are two groups of people: the first group of people who count 10 vipassanaa insights starting from the third stage of tender insight (sammasana nana); and the second group of people who count 9 vipassanaa insights starting from the first stage of principal insight (udayabbhaya nana); please count me in the first group. The reasons are as follows. The Investigation Knowledge or Comprehension by Groups (sammasana nana), which investigates the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) of realities (naama and ruupa), may still be a tender insight (taruna vipassanaa). It may still be vulnerable to ten imperfections (upakkilesas). At this stage, panna may still be not keen enough yet to see the danger and disadvantage of the arising and falling away of realities. Nevertheless, the knowledge of the three characteristics of realities (naama and ruupa) is the first most important step towards higher vipassanaa insights. Subsequent vipassanaa insights cannot do away with the knowledge of these three characteristics of realities. For instance, what is the Knowledge of the Arising and Falling Away of Naama and Ruupa (udayabbaya nana)? In Visuddhimagga XXI, 3, it is stated as: Now the characteristics fail to become apparent when something is not given attention (amanasikaara) and so something conceals (paticchanna) them. What is that? Firstly, the characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because, when rise and fall are not given attention (udayabbayaanam amanasikaara), it is concealed by continuity (santatiyaa paticchannattaa na upatthaati). The characteristic of pain does not become apparent because, when continuous oppression is not given attention (abhinha-sampati-piilanassa amanasikaara), it is concealed by the postures (iriyaapathehi paticchannattaa na upathaati). The characteristic of non-self does not become apparent because, when resolution into the various elements is not given attention (naanaadhaatu vinibbhogassa amanasikaara), it is concealed by compactness (ghanena paticchannattaa na upatthaati). Subsequent paragraphs in Visuddhimagga describe how to overcome these obstacles, and how to differentiate the impermanent and the characteristic of impermanence, the painful and the characteristic of pain, and the not-self and the characteristic of not-self; and so on. Therefore, we can see that udayabbaya nana is based on the knowledge of three characteristics of realities. If there were no preceding sammasana nana there would not be subsequent udayabbaya nana. Even during the moment of attainment of the Path, the mind-door adverting-consciousness of magga-viithi process adverts to one of the three characteristics of the realities, i.e. anicca or dukkha or anatta of the naama and ruupa, which presents itself. The preparatory consciousness, the proximity consciousness and the adaptation which are maha-kusala cittas accompanied by understanding experience the same object as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, i.e. one of the three characteristics of realities (naama and ruupa). Thus, up until the arising of the citta which is called "change of lineage" (gotrabhu), the lokiya maha-kusala cittas, even in magga viithi, experience one of the three characteristics of the realities. Therefore, the sammasana nana, although it may be called the third stage of tender insight, is the most important first step and the consistent accompaniment of each progressive step towards higher vipassanaa insights, and deserves to be counted as one of the ten vipassanaa insights, on equal terms with the nine stages of principle insight. Respectfully, Han #65710 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn Hallo Sarah When you have time and your health makes it possible, can you have a look at my message #65090 to you? I'm still curious to your answers. Metta Joop #65711 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:15 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Howard and connie, I'm heartened by your heartfelt grappling with the weighty heart of matters so, taking heart, I'll not skip a beat and pump it up. (That was absolutely the most revolting, not to mention affected, play on words ever composed. Dig it.) "So one who aspires to be stainless &sorrowless shouldn't make anything in the world dear anywhere." To this, from the Dhammapada: 212 "Piyato jaayatii soko, piyato jaayatii bhaya.m piyato vippamuttassa, natthi soko kuto bhaya.m" 213 "Pemato jaayatii soko, pemato jaayatii bhaya.m piyato vippamutassa, natthi soko kuto bhaya.m" Soka is grief, sorrow and mourning; bhaya is fear, fright and dread. Piya, to hold dear, beloved; pema is love and affection. And so the sort of love and affection and holding dear that is meant by 'piyato' and 'pemato' is clearly not on. 'Vippamuta' is released. To be released from holding dear and affection is to be released from fear and grief. H: "hardening the heart"...The dictionary gives "to make callous". It results in a person who is "hard hearted". The expression is quite common and well understood." This is a dictionary definition alright, Howard. I think I may have mentioned a while back how I personally don't go to the Oxford to define words when the discussion is Dhamma-related. Its just me, eh. I don't care how the world defines its terms. No offense, just to let you know where I'm coming from. I think of citta when I think of heart, much as I think of cetasikas when I think of body. Citta might be considered the heart of the mental body. I appreciated your point, connie, regarding the two-fold passaddhi (tranquility), lahutaa (lightness), mudutaa (malleability), kamma~n~nataa (wieldiness), paagu~n~nataa (proficiency). These factors, in the complex arising, contribute to the tone of consciousness. Their absence can, metaphorically I suppose, be seen as 'hardness'. These are not related to 'love' rather to consciousness itself. H: "Hardening the heart is a purposeful suppression of love, a looking away that is aversive, running from human warmth in oneself due either to being seduced by hate, or, more often, to having been hurt too much, or, frequently, out of a fear of being hurt. It is not being awake and aware, but oppositely, a shutting off of higher emotional impulses, often out of cowardice, and sometimes because ones impulses are deemed less than perfect, in which case it is a throwing out the baby with the bath water." Howard, check out the tale of 'The Chinese Wife' in an earlier post to connie and Sarah and I'd be interested to hear your opinions given what you note above. No more time. Visible objects One and Two have arisen, time to conceptualise some breakfast. Scott. #65712 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu sarahprocter... Dear Joop, Thx for bringing my attention to your post - I have dozens in a file which I plan to get to when I can, but let me add a bit to this one now. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > As you perhaps have seen, I'm still/again posting, with a lower > frequency, I now more busy with 'engaged buddhism', a topic about > which I'm giving a lecture this saterday. ... S: How did your lecture go? Pls share the details if you care to. ... > First a reaction on a rather old post of you (#64591) > > S: "As I mentioned before, I don't think that anyone really > understands what rebirth or DO mean without > a very developed understanding of namas and rupas." > J: It's possible that I don't have that "a very developed > understanding" but why should one find the rebirth-topic important? > Just being mindful in this moment is enough (is difficult enough), > wahat happens in the future is not a problem of the now. ... S: I think it's quite possible that none of us have 'a very developed understanding' and so our understanding of rebirth is also bound to be limited. I agree that being mindful/developing understanding now is all that matters. No need to fuss about the future. However, by understanding dhammas, khandhas now, we appreciate more about how khandhas have always been this way and always will whilst there are conditions. ... > > N: "As for the 'revision of Nyantiloka's definition [natthika- ditthi] > I once pointed out to BB a couple of errors in the dictionary, but > basically he said it could not be changed now as Nyantiloka is no > longer > alive." > > [It was the definition in a electronic version of the dictionary: > natthika-ditthi: 'nihilistic view' (a doctrine that all values are > baseless, that nothing is knowable or can be communicated, and that > life itself is meaningless)] > J: It was not my purpose to change this definition, because I think > it's a good one (and I'm according this definition not a nihilist) > Is it really an error? On the first page of this version I read it > was the Fourth Revised Edition, edited by Nyanaponika Mahathera. > Perhaps this was his intention. .... S: I have a copy of the 4th revised ed and it doesn't include this definition. Under 'natthika' it says see ditthi and under ditthi, it defines nihilism as taught by Ajita-Kesakambali 'who asserted that any belief in good action and its reward is mere delusion, that after death no further life would follow, that man at death would become dissolved into the elements, etc.' This is how I've read it in other texts too. As I said, I understand from BB that no changes can be made to the dictionary. ... > > My problem was another one, the definition of BB in MCA, page > 207/208: " nihilism (natthika-di.t.thi), which denies the survival of > the personality in any form after death, thus negating the moral > significance of deeds;…" > I'm not insulted by this definition but I think it's terribly wrong. ... S: I prefer the way it is summarised in my quote above. ... > You already said about this quote (in #64591): "I wouldn't use the > phrase 'survival of the personality' as in the quote above, because > this sounds to much like the idea of 'Joop' or 'Sarah' continuing on. > In a new life, there will be a completely different personality with > no recollection of this one. No self or being at all. However, > accumulated tendencies continue on....". I agree with that in a > broad sense (after my physical death other sentient being will be > born, unless pollution makes any life on Earth impossible of course). .... S: I don't think pollution is the condition that will determine whether life continues on:-) .... > But you not yet responded on the 'thus'-part of BB's definition. .... S: I had no problem with the 'thus-part'. If one believes that life doesn't continue on from life to life, one doesn't believe kamma will continue to bring its results from life to life while ignorance exists as taught by the Buddha. .... > > > I now have a question about your remark "accumulated tendencies > continue on" (after the death of the five kandhas formerly known > as 'Joop') > We have discussed more about the accumulation-concept (I said a > accumulation cannot be a paramattha dhamma because is is not falling > away quick, it is not anicca enough) > But now my question is: do you think a wrong view (for example > natthika-ditthi) itself is making the accumulated tendencies (I think > you mean the akusala ones) bigger? .... S: Yes. Each time any wrong view arises, it 'accumulates', like adding another grain of salt to a glass of water. Gradually, the taste becomes saltier. The view arises more often. ... >That by the view I have on rebirth > my accumulation is grown from for example 591 to 592 ? .... S: :-) Who knows? I think that most the time when you express your comments/views here Joop, you are considering and reflecting wisely on them. Sometimes you may just be taking a stand for the discussion but really be quite open-minded, I suspect. Otherwise you wouldn't even discuss them. Probably when you talk to Stephen Batchelor you express our views and taking our side, lol. Btw, is there any chance of encouraging him to join the discussions here himself? That would be interesting. .... > > BTW 1: you use "accumulated tendencies" as a plural; how much there > are: two (kusala & akusala) or more? .... S: Usually for us, just kusala and akusala. We can also refer to the arahat's accumulated tendencies, but in this case they are kiriya (inoperative), not kusala. .... > > BTW 2: I think "accumulated tendencies" exist, but that the > distinguishment ultimate-conventional has a flaw. .... S: Well, if we come back to the 'now' as you suggested at the outset, the accumulated tendency is just that which arises now - kusala or akusala. Keep talking and as I pick up strength, I plan to get back to more posting. Metta, Sarah ======= #65713 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Matt matt roke wrote: >> Jon: But a sotapanna is capable of acts of violence short of an intention >> to kill. Does the explanation you've given here account for their being >> able to commit those acts but not the act of killing? >> > > Matt: I think so, what else would account for it? Morality or appreciation > of the result of kamma has not prevented the act of violence, so there is > always a chance that they won’t stop the act of killing. > > I am not very interested in speculating on how much lobha or dosa a > Sotapannas may or may not have because of accumulations. I understand that > Sotapannas can never again have wrong view because they have insight into > the impermanence of dhammas and so they no longer take concepts of self and > people to be real. There may be conditions for them to have strong dosa > because of strong attachment, but who can they kill if they understand that > there is no self and no people? > I may not have made my question clear. Here it is again, but worded differently: If an 'understanding of no-self and no people' is the reason for being incapable of *killing* another being, why would it not also mean that one is incapable of *inflicting violence on* another being? Hope this is clearer. Jon PS <> Quite a family time, then. Good to hear news of Sek. You'll miss not having Sarita around. #65714 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Dear Scott (and Connie, and all) - In a message dated 11/28/06 8:34:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > > Dear Howard and connie, > > I'm heartened by your heartfelt grappling with the weighty heart of > matters so, taking heart, I'll not skip a beat and pump it up. (That > was absolutely the most revolting, not to mention affected, play on > words ever composed. Dig it.) > > "So one who aspires > to be stainless &sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere." > > To this, from the Dhammapada: > > 212 > "Piyato jaayatii soko, piyato jaayatii bhaya.m > piyato vippamuttassa, natthi soko kuto bhaya.m" > > 213 > "Pemato jaayatii soko, pemato jaayatii bhaya.m > piyato vippamutassa, natthi soko kuto bhaya.m" > > Soka is grief, sorrow and mourning; bhaya is fear, fright and dread. > Piya, to hold dear, beloved; pema is love and affection. And so the > sort of love and affection and holding dear that is meant by 'piyato' > and 'pemato' is clearly not on. 'Vippamuta' is released. To be > released from holding dear and affection is to be released from fear > and grief. > > H: "hardening the heart"...The dictionary gives "to make callous". It > results in a person who is "hard hearted". The expression is quite > common and well understood." > > This is a dictionary definition alright, Howard. I think I may have > mentioned a while back how I personally don't go to the Oxford to > define words when the discussion is Dhamma-related. Its just me, eh. > I don't care how the world defines its terms. No offense, just to > let you know where I'm coming from. > > I think of citta when I think of heart, much as I think of cetasikas > when I think of body. Citta might be considered the heart of the > mental body. I appreciated your point, connie, regarding the two-fold > passaddhi (tranquility), lahutaa (lightness), mudutaa (malleability), > kamma~n~nataa (wieldiness), paagu~n~nataa (proficiency). These > factors, in the complex arising, contribute to the tone of > consciousness. Their absence can, metaphorically I suppose, be seen > as 'hardness'. These are not related to 'love' rather to > consciousness itself. > > H: "Hardening the heart is a purposeful suppression of love, a > looking away that is aversive, running from human warmth in oneself > due either to being seduced by hate, or, more often, to having been > hurt too much, or, frequently, out of a fear of being hurt. It is not > being awake and aware, but oppositely, a shutting off of higher > emotional impulses, often out of cowardice, and sometimes because ones > impulses are deemed less than perfect, in which case it is a throwing > out the baby with the bath water." > > Howard, check out the tale of 'The Chinese Wife' in an earlier post to > connie and Sarah and I'd be interested to hear your opinions given > what you note above. > > No more time. Visible objects One and Two have arisen, time to > conceptualise some breakfast. > > Scott. > ====================== I don't believe I can make my understanding and point of view on this matter any clearer. So I will drop out of the thread. :-) With metta, Howard #65715 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nilovg Dear Scott, this is priceless! Nina. Op 28-nov-2006, om 14:15 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > No more time. Visible objects One and Two have arisen, time to > conceptualise some breakfast. #65716 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 11/28/06 9:45:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Scott, > this is priceless! > Nina. > Op 28-nov-2006, om 14:15 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > > >No more time. Visible objects One and Two have arisen, time to > >conceptualise some breakfast. > =================== Scott, I had missed that! Yes it is really funny! ;-)) With metta, Howard #65717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. nilovg Hi Phil, -------- Ph:My main objection with her approach is this idea that unless it is accompanied by an appreciation of not-self, abstaining from akusala has no benefit and is - to use Jon's words - only replacing one kind of akusala with another. That may be technically true (lobha or self- identity might deepen if we are thinking about being a better person) but to think of a world in which people hesitate to abstain from akusala because they think self is involved is a bit frightening. ---- N: I am sure nobody will argue that abstention from akusala is kusala. Perhaps what Jon said was in another context. I think there are misunderstandings in this area. We have to be so careful with what is said in such or such context, misunderstandings may arise. Especially with an internet medium, it is really difficult. When speaking in a live meeting things are easier to explain. Virati cetasika is a sobhana cetasika. Gradually we can learn that abstention is a cetasika, arising because there are the right conditions. No problem here, is there? ------------ Ph:Another very interesting and subtle area - deepening our understanding of when there is vipaka, and when there is javana. This is something I have not heard/read discussed elsewhere and is probably taken for granted. ------- N: See Kh Sujin's Survey. It is very important to know that there are four jaatis of citta: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. This helps us to see cause and effect in our life. It helps us to understand that the sense-cognitions are vipaka, and our reactions to these are cittas which are cause: kusala citta or akusala citta. If we do not know this there will be a hopeless confusion. ---------- Ph quotes N: > We can say the same about repeating the word anatta. As you said: > thinking is not the same as penetrative understanding. Kh Sujin > always insisted on this. > You also wondered about her words, detachment from the beginning. > This means: no clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be > different from what they are. Ph: But sure this will happen no matter what. "Not clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be differnet from what they are" sounds like a very advanced kind of understanding/awareness to me. .....The detachment will come gradually. But I think "clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be different" goes on even when we are reflecting on *not* clinging to an idea of self that wants dhammas to be different. ------- N: Very well observed. We can consider her words as a reminder that clinging to do something else to enhance sati or going somewhere else to have more sati is counterproductive. Or we want to know particular objects as objects of awareness, excluding others. Not minding whatever dhamma presents itself as object of understanding takes a certain degree of detachment. Then you are not attached to specific ones. When we consider that citta motivates some action we perform, this consideration did not occur before we heard the Dhamma. Can we not say that this consideration is already some weak degree of detachment from wrong view? It can grow. We do not think of an advanced degree. Nina. #65718 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:01 am Subject: Getting stream-enterer in this (Was: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor .. nidive Hi Joop, > Except one thing, that we had to do the Noble Eightfold Path: right > view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, > right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. > I know some DSG-participants don't like that word 'do', but to me we > had to do it every time, every day, again; Yes, we have to 'do' the Noble Eightfold Path every time, every day. > I only accept that 'right view' is partly a result (and partly > Dhamma-study) that 'happens' to us. I don't understand what you mean by 'result'. Do you mean Right View is the 'result of doing' as well as Dhamma study? > But perhaps you can say more what you mean with implication of these > two suttas? Because of my understanding of dark kamma and bright kamma in terms of 'rebirth' and 'cycles' in D.O., I am afraid I will have much difficulty communicating my ideas to you. So, I will leave it at that. Regards, Swee Boon #65719 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:44 am Subject: Three Stories: Fixed Views and Lovingkindness upasaka_howard Hi all - My wife is a Patient Relations volunteer at a fine hospital near us. She speaks to patients, listens to them, calms them, and writes up reports of complaints and praisings as well. To a great extent she works as an ombudsman. Today was quite a day, with three unbelievable stories: 1) A man in his 30's was waiting for final approval to go home, having been finally taken care of properly. He was originally admitted to the Emergency Room, being close to unable to breathe! The E.R. doctor - my wife gave his name on the report! - talked to him, and when he said that he was a smoker, the doctor simply lectured him sternly about smoking, and instead of examining him, doing tests, and maybe giving him oxygen, said that there was nothing he could do for him and then released him from the hospital! His own family doctor then had the young man directly readmitted, bypassing the E.R.. 2) A man in his late 40's or early 50's had come into the hospital with chest pains. It happens that he is, himself, a doctor, and this hospital is one of the very best heart hospitals in the U.S. The triage nurse, not knowing that he is a doctor, asked him "Why did you come here? Why didn't you go to a really good hospital like ?" The patient, who knew both hospitals quite well, was appalled, both at her "traitorous" talk, her foolishness in saying that to a person who might well be having a heart attack, and her amazing display of ignorance. My wife reported this as well. 3) A man in his late 50's or early 60's, a very sweet guy, expressed great worry to my wife. He is a diabetic. Awaiting a certain test, he had gone without any food, no I.V. either, for quite a while. He had inquired a few times when he could expect the test to be done, but had gotten no reply yet. My wife spoke to the nurse about him, mentioning his great upset and emphasizing that he is a diabetic. The nurse utterly refused to check into the matter. I hope that was "just" a matter of being a generally hateful person rather than a matter of bigotry. (The patient is a black man.) My wife wrote this up, and, happily, the Patient Relations Department starred that entry. It would be hard to make up such stories as this, I think. It amazes me that people such as this should work as nurses and doctors. All three of them acted, I have little doubt, quite self-righteously. I am thankful that someone such as my wife is there to do act selflessly, countering such immorality, and doing something to rectify matters. With metta, Howard #65720 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:48 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 135 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Satipaììhåna-sutta, in the section on ``mindfulness of the body'': Monks, it is like a double-mouthed provision bag that is full of various kinds of grain such as hill-paddy, paddy, kidney beans, peas, sesamum, rice; and a keen-eyed man, pouring them out, were to reflect: ``That's hill-paddy, that's paddy, that's kidney beans, that's peas, that's sesamum, that's rice.'' Even so, monks, does a monk reflect on precisely this body itself, encased in skin and full of various impurities, from the soles of the feet up and from the crown of the head down... Not only the body, but also the mind should be considered as elements. There is nothing in our life which is not an element. Our past lives were only elements and our future lives will only be elements. We are inclined to think of our future life and wish for a happy rebirth. We should, however, realize that there is no self which in the future will have another existence; there are and will be only elements. We have learnt to classify citta in different ways and this can remind us that cittas are only elements. Not only cittas are elements, but cetasikas too are elements. We are attached to happy feeling and we dislike unpleasant feeling. Feelings, however, are only elements which arise because of conditions. When we are tired or sick we take tiredness and sickness for self and we have aversion. Why do we not accept unpleasant things as they come to us, since they are only elements? One might not be inclined to see realities as elements, but it is the truth. One might not like to remember that things are impermanent, that birth is followed by ageing, sickness and death, but it is the truth. Why do we not want to see the truth? ****** Nina. #65721 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:56 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, I, 8. nilovg Dear friends, The study of the Abhidhamma can remind us that the different cittas which are accompanied by cetasikas arise because of their own conditions and fall away immediately. When one, for example, has the intention to abstain from akusala but one cannot do so in a particular situation, one should remember that it is not self who can abstain but that there are cetasikas, "virati cetasikas", which have the function of abstaining. They are: abstention from wrong speech, from wrong action and from wrong livelihood. When virati cetasika does not arise we cannot possibly abstain from akusala. The development of satipaììhåna conditions abstention from akusala. We read in the "Stories of the Mansions" (Khuddaka Nikåya, Vimånavatthu, V, Great Chariot, 53, the Mansion of Chatta) that the brahman youth Chatta was on his way to pay his teacher. Thieves were waiting for him in order to kill and rob him. The Buddha sat under a tree on the road Chatta was taking and he taught him out of compassion the three refuges and the five precepts. Chatta continued on his way, reflecting on the Buddha's teaching, and then he was killed by the robbers. He was reborn a deva and showed himself with his luminous mansion. the Buddha asked him of which deed his rebirth was the result so that many people would know the deed of merit Chatta had done. Chatta explained that he first did not want to take the three refuges and that he afterwards did so. Evenso he did not want to take the five precepts but afterwards he did so. We read that he said: I approached the glorious Conquerer for refuge, and Dhamma too, likewise the Order of monks. First I said "No", revered sir; afterwards I did your bidding faithfully. Live not in any way impurely, hurting any breathing thing, for wise men do not praise lack of restraint towards breathing things. First I said "No", revered sir; afterwards I did your bidding faithfully... We read that he after the teaching of each of the five precepts first said "No", and then afterwards, took the precept. We read further on: Even a little done in the Tathågata's Dhamma is of great fruition, a wide-spread fruit. Behold how Chatta, through merit done, illumines the earth even as does the sun.... It can happen to all of us that we first say "No", when we think that we cannot abstain from akusala. However, when kusala citta arises it can be done. Even a brief moment of kusala is very beneficial. When we learn that satipaììhåna should be developed naturally, in daily life, also in our work situation, we may at first say, "No, I cannot do it." But when there are conditions for kusala citta with right understanding we see that it can be done. Or we may think, "No, I cannot be aware of akusala, I must make it disappear first." When there is more understanding of citta and cetasika which arise because of their own conditions we can learn that it is not self but sati which can be aware of the characteristic of akusala. ******** Nina. #65722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Stories: Fixed Views and Lovingkindness nilovg Hi Howard, I really appreciate Rita's work and thank you for sharing these stories. It is unbelievable what happened, and Rita's help is admirable. Nina. Op 28-nov-2006, om 18:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My wife is a Patient Relations volunteer at a fine hospital near us. > She speaks to patients, listens to them, calms them, and writes up > reports of > complaints and praisings as well #65723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! nilovg Dear Han, the note by Ven. Bodhi is also very good, on p. 746, Spk glosses sa- upanisa as sakaara.na, sappaccaya...the cause is called the proximate cause because the effect rests upon it.> I also have the Wheel, BPS. PTS translates it as causal association. As to proximate cause given in the definition of saddhaa, this is in another context. See Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 140: --------- Nina. Op 27-nov-2006, om 10:17 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > In SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting > Conditions, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html > > the Buddha said: > "Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, > it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is > the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should > be the reply. #65724 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Stories: Fixed Views and Lovingkindness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/28/06 2:17:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I really appreciate Rita's work and thank you for sharing these > stories. It is unbelievable what happened, and Rita's help is admirable. > Nina. > ===================== Thanks, Nina! :-) I was so shocked at hearing of these events, but so pleased that Rita had the chance to intervene. Metta and acting upon metta are so important, I believe. If we do nothing else in this world than ease some minds and right some wrongs, we will have done a lot it seems to me. Sila is two-thirds of the Buddha's prescription to "Do no harm, do good, and purify the mind." With metta, Howard #65725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana I, 7. nilovg Hi Phil, ---------- Ph quotes N: We can learn to develop right understanding > also of akusala which arises, in order to see it as not self, only a > conditioned reality. Well, I think seeing it as not self will come later, and thinking about it as a conditioned reality is a bit too much thinking when one is aware of an akusala thought. We can just let it be, and it subsides. That's what the Buddha says happened for him in MN 19, and at the risk of sounding insanely deluded I find it happens for me too! No need at such moments to think about anatta. ------ N: You are right, there is no time to think, cittas arise and fall away so fast. By listening and considering understanding grows and performs its function already, so fast. It helps to understand intellectually that akusala is a conditioned dhamma. M.N. 19: The Buddha was reflecting with understanding, and it was pa~n~naa that realized the disadvantage of akusala. This is not a matter of just let it be but of true understanding. -------- Ph: Anyways, just thinking aloud above and I don't want to pester you with any more argumentative-sounding posts, so please feel free to disregard. ------- N: On the contrary, I appreciate what you say, never tiring. ---------- Ph:I am interested these days in the vitakka > viccara progression. Again, though I am probably deluded, I think I have, at times, experienced something like a movement from vitakka to vicarra when meditating. Concentration settles a bit more on what is happening - the simile of the bee sucking on a flew rather than just landing on it - it feels a bit like that. ------- N: Vitakka and vicara arise together in the case of cittas of the sensesphere, and therefore extremely hard to distinguish between them. How could we when we have not reached the first stage of insight, and even after that. We do not directly realize the difference between citta and cetasika. Similes are used to explain their difference but this does not mean that we can experience them one at a time. The person who develops jhana has to distinguish between them because they are jhanafactors that are abandoned at higher stages of jhana. But an extremely hard thing to do. ---------- Ph: What is the relationship between moment-to-moment concentration (khanica concentration) and vicara? Also, what is the difference, if any, between this moment-to-moment concentration and the cetasika of concentration that is a universal cetasika. ------- N: Momentary concentration is ekkaggata cetasika. But this cetasika is different according as it accompanies different cittas. It can be right concentration of the eightfold Path or wrong concentration accompanying akusala citta. As far as I know momentary conscentration is used in the sense of kusala concentration. I do not see any specal relationship with vicara. ---------- Ph: The way I have heard momem- to-moment concentration described, it spans more than one moment and more than one object... ------- N: The Vis. I, note 3: . Right, when pa~n`naa grows also the accompanying samadhi becomes stronger. At the moment of lokuttara citta concentration has the strength of jhana, but I cannot imagine this now. I did not go into this subject much. Nina. #65726 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana I, 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 11/28/06 2:59:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Ph:I am interested these days in the vitakka >viccara progression. > Again, though I am probably deluded, I think I have, at times, > experienced something like a movement from vitakka to vicarra when > meditating. Concentration settles a bit more on what is happening - the > simile of the bee sucking on a flew rather than just landing on it - it > feels a bit like that. > > ------- > N: Vitakka and vicara arise together in the case of cittas of the > sensesphere, and therefore extremely hard to distinguish between > them. How could we when we have not reached the first stage of > insight, and even after that. We do not directly realize the > difference between citta and cetasika. > ==================== Phil, it might not be a move from initial application to sustained application, but an easing of both. The move from 1st jhana to 2nd jhana is largely a move away from effortful application of mind towards an effortless, automatic, application. I'm not implying that you are necessarily at a jhanic stage, but still there can be a move towards effortlessness, and I think that may be what is occurring. With metta, Howard #65727 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. philofillet Hi Nina > N: I am sure nobody will argue that abstention from akusala is > kusala. Perhaps what Jon said was in another context. Well, the words are there - perhaps Jon would like to clarify. But I owe him a post already. It is one of those posts I want to respond to at length but never leave myself enough time to. I think there > are misunderstandings in this area. We have to be so careful with > what is said in such or such context, misunderstandings may arise. > Especially with an internet medium, it is really difficult. When > speaking in a live meeting things are easier to explain. Ph: OK here is another thing said that has stuck in my craw. (An idiom meaning it's difficult to digest!) "What good is it to know kusala from akusala if one does not know that realities are not- self." Acharn Sujin said that in a talk. Perhaps she would phrase it differently. Because on another occasion when asked about the difference between (wholesome) chanda and lobha, she said "one is kusala and the other is akusala." Perhaps to be more consistent she should have said "what is the use of knowing chanda from lobha if one does not know all realities are not-self." > Virati cetasika is a sobhana cetasika. Gradually we can learn that > abstention is a cetasika, arising because there are the right > conditions. No problem here, is there? Ph: No problem here. Whether kusala or akusala, nothing happens without conditions for it. > > ------------ > > Ph:Another very interesting and subtle area - deepening our > understanding of when there is vipaka, and when there is javana. > This is something I have not heard/read discussed elsewhere and is > probably taken for granted. > > ------- > > N: See Kh Sujin's Survey. It is very important to know that there are > four jaatis of citta: kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. This helps > us to see cause and effect in our life. It helps us to understand > that the sense-cognitions are vipaka, and our reactions to these are > cittas which are cause: kusala citta or akusala citta. If we do not > know this there will be a hopeless confusion. Ph: This is a great section of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. It's a great book. Oops. Can't finish any more, Nina. Naomi is calling me off the computer. Thanks as always for your guidance. Phil #65728 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana I, 7. philofillet Thanks, Nina and Howard. I'll keep reflecting on this. As I listen to other teachers such as Bhikkhu Bodhi or Sayadaw U Pandita or I hear something a bit different from it being very difficult to distinguish the vitakka from vicara. For example, in MN 19, when one settles in on a wholesome thought instead of seeing it subside as the unwholesome thoughts do (when one has been training the mind in this direction), this settling in on the wholesome thought is vicara, according to BB. (The Buddha recognized that this sort of settling in on a wholesome thought is tiring and not to be carried on at length, according to that sutta.) The Burmese sayadaws and their students that I have listened to talk about vitaka being "aim" and vicara being something else, I forget. So as I listen to these teachers it is likely that I will come to see the two as distinguishable and helpful in a practical way. (As yoniso manasikara is, when seen in the way it is considered in suttas, as a wise attention to objects that can be applied in a more conventional way than the universal cetasika could.) Anyways, thanks Nina. It's very important for me to keep track of what you and Acharn have to say on these points so that I don't get swept away too readily. (I'm afraid I can't say "what Abhidhamma has to say" because the sayadaws I listen to are also Abhidhammakas (?) but have quite a different approach to Acharn Sujin.) Howard, certainly something happens on some days when meditating, and it certainly seems effortless and very beneficial. I'm not seeking jhanas, but I've had some arisings of a concentration that feels like what might be akin to khanica (momentary) concentration. I'd like to talk a lot more about meditation because I'm very keen on it these days and interesting things are happening (even when they don't happen is interesting because I don't press like I used to when I meditated before) but don't want to overdo it. There's a Mahasi center in Tokyo. I'll go there tomorrow and see if there's a teacher available. I think it's good to throw oneself into one method for a while with an open mind (but not wide open, if you know what I mean.) Phil >Concentration settles a bit more on what is happening - the > > simile of the bee sucking on a flew rather than just landing on it - it > > feels a bit like that. > > > > ------- > > N: Vitakka and vicara arise together in the case of cittas of the > > sensesphere, and therefore extremely hard to distinguish between > > them. How could we when we have not reached the first stage of > > insight, and even after that. We do not directly realize the > > difference between citta and cetasika. > > > ==================== > Phil, it might not be a move from initial application to sustained > application, but an easing of both. The move from 1st jhana to 2nd jhana is > largely a move away from effortful application of mind towards an effortless, > automatic, application. I'm not implying that you are necessarily at a jhanic > stage, but still there can be a move towards effortlessness, and I think that may > be what is occurring. > > With metta, > Howard > #65729 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: the note by Ven. Bodhi is also very good, on p. 746, Spk glosses sa-upanisa as sakaara.na, sappaccaya.. .the cause is called the proximate cause because the effect rests upon it.> I also have the Wheel, BPS. PTS translates it as causal association. As to proximate cause given in the definition of saddhaa, this is in another context. See Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 140: ------------------------------ Han: Thank you very much for your further explanations. They are very useful, and I have noted them carefully. Respectfully, Han P.S. I think (S.v,347) and (S.v,343) refer to older translations of Samyutta Nikaya and the figures indicate the volume and page numbers. As I do not have older translations I would be grateful to have sutta numbers or sutta titles, for further study. #65730 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:26 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/28/06 7:29:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Nina > > >N: I am sure nobody will argue that abstention from akusala is > >kusala. Perhaps what Jon said was in another context. > > Well, the words are there - perhaps Jon would like to clarify. ==================== I would so argue ... but with conditions. So it is not entirely so that nobody will argue that. ;-) I don't think that 'kusala' points to some magical, mystical thing, but simply means "wholesome" or "skillful" or "morally proper" or, even, just plain "good". I do readily admit that an action, in and of itself, independent of intention/motive, has no moral value. It is the intention, along with the degree of understanding, that determine moral status. (I suppose that the well-intentioned killing of someone due to the ignorant belief that the victim was Satan, himself, wouldn't be very "wholesome" despite the good intention! LOL!) The usual intent involved with abstaining from akusala actions is, indeed, kusala. Akusala intentions could, of course, be possible - for example abstaining from unwholesome actions to gain positive status in the eyes of others. But, typically, abstention from akusala is kusala. With metta, Howard #65731 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana I, 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/28/06 7:40:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Howard, certainly something happens on some days when meditating, > and it certainly seems effortless and very beneficial. I'm not > seeking jhanas, but I've had some arisings of a concentration that > feels like what might be akin to khanica (momentary) concentration. > I'd like to talk a lot more about meditation because I'm very keen > on it these days and interesting things are happening (even when > they don't happen is interesting because I don't press like I used > to when I meditated before) but don't want to overdo it. ------------------------------------- Howard: I'm very happy for you that you are developing a meditation practice. Do keep in mind, though, that the purpose isn't special experiences, but cultivation. So please don't fall into evaluating some sittings as "good" and others as "bad". I like your saying "even when they don't happen is interesting." :-) ------------------------------------ There's a > > Mahasi center in Tokyo. I'll go there tomorrow and see if there's a > teacher available. I think it's good to throw oneself into one > method for a while with an open mind (but not wide open, if you know > what I mean.) > --------------------------------- Howard: That approach wasn't so good for me. I didn't find the labeling to be good, considering it to be an imposing of concept instead of a direct looking. But it might be fine for you. It is a very individual matter. ================= Keep going, Phil! Easily and happily and moderately, but keep going. :-) With metta, Howard #65732 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:49 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana I, 7. philofillet Hi Howard Thanks for the encouragement. > That approach wasn't so good for me. I didn't find the labeling to be > good, considering it to be an imposing of concept instead of a direct looking. > But it might be fine for you. It is a very individual matter. Yes, I note, but don't use a word, or words. But I do find that it helps just to experience the flow of physical/mental phenomena while meditating. The thing I don't get about Mahasi is the "do everything slow" approach, or the slow walking meditation. It does seem in line with the commentary to the satipattha sutta, in which the footstep is broken down into elemental phases but I won't do it unless I ever go on a retreat and am asked to do it. Then I'll do it out of good manners. Yeah, I'll take it easy. Too much enthusiasm at the beginning would just lead to burn out. But I feel a lot of faith to go for it. I like what Sayadaw U Pandita said - if there is not faith at the beginning, there cannot be the energy that is required for mindfulness, and without mindfulness...well, you get the picture. Obviously, I'm not concerned about clinging to comfort or craving pleasant sensations or lobha or greed for results or any of that any more, or not for the time being - though I have a lot of respect for people like Nina and others who have practiced so long and so diligently without indulging in the immediate, tangible benefits of meditation. Great patience and courage, I think. Oh, another thing I like about Mahasi is the abdominal breathing involved. That's a good, healthy habit for us all to get into, whether related to meditation or not. More oxygen to the brain! I think it's why I feel so perky these days. OK, I am signing off now until January. My writing is starting to pick up again. See you all in 2007! :) Phil #65733 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:07 pm Subject: Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN sarahprocter... Dear Andrew Leong & Rob M, Andrew, I think this may have been your first message on DSG, so also welcome here. Do you also live in K.L. and visit the Vihara there? Do you know Rob Moult? I'm sure all the ceremonies to commemorate the passing away for the Venerable Dr are very special. Please feel free to share anything about them from your experience. Rob and any other K.L. members, it would also be good to hear from you on this (or anything else for that matter!). Metta, Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leong" wrote: > > Dear Friends in the Dhamma, > > Seeking your kind assistance to e-disseminate this information below on the > 3-month Ceremonies and Dhamma talks to commemorate the Passing away of the > Venerable Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda Nayaka Maha Thera. #65734 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana sarahprocter... Hi Ruwachar (& Nina) --- Raghunath Awachar wrote: > Hi everybody > I want to know about vipassana in detail. How it was taught by Buddha > and how it is different from other meditation practices.Can anybody > help me. .... S: Welcome to DSG! Like Nina, I'd like to encourage you to read her letters on vipassana and ask any questions. (Nina, it's great to read these letters again after many years - the words and KS's reminders from the tapes always seem fresh). Ruwachar, you may also like to look at past posts here in the meaning of vipassana saved under 'vipassana' in 'useful posts' in the files section of DSG. Vipassana refers to 'insight' or developed wisdom. It is not a meditation practice as such but a 'clear knowing' or precise understanding of present realities. Please let us know what your ideas are and why you are asking. Also, why not tell us more about your background and where you live. We'd be glad to hear. Metta, Sarah ===== #65735 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suan / Vi~n~nanam sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Connie & all, --- connie wrote: > Dear Nina, > I think this is what you were looking for by Suan. > peace, > connie > > SUAN wrote: > > The original Pali found in Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, > Silakkhandhavagga, > Dighanikayo starts with the term "Vi~n~nanam". > > And Kevatta Sutta Atthakatha defines "Vi~n~nanam" as follows. > > "Tattha vi~n~natabbanti "Vi~n~nanam" nibbanassetam namam,.." > > "There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Vi~n~nanam". This is the name > > of nibbana." ...... S: Usually we refer to vi~n~nana as beig a synonym of citta and mano, but I heard K.Sujin saying that it depends on the context and that the meaning of vi~n~nana is that of 'clear knowing', I believe. So here, that which is clearly known is nibbana or that which should be specially realized perhaps. Metta, Sarah p.s see also under 'Vinnana - nibbana' in 'U.P.' ============ #65736 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:11 pm Subject: Real Rich Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Faith is the Seed, Hand, and Wealth of Beings! What is real Richness? Bhikkhus, when a Noble Disciple possesses 4 things, then he is said to be rich, with much wealth and prosperous property. What four? Here, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple possesses the faith of confirmed confidence in the Buddha ... in the Dhamma ... and in the Sangha.... He possesses the moral purity that is praised by the Noble Ones, unbroken ... untorn ... pure ... intact ... leading to concentration.... Any Noble Disciple who possesses these 4 things is really quite rich, with much wealth and lush property.... SN V 402 Suffering is the cause of Faith... Elated Joy is the effect of Faith... Entrance is the function of Faith... Trusting is the characteristic of Faith... Decisiveness is the manifestation of Faith... Faith is a Hand that lifts one out of Suffering... Faith is the Seed that make one grow the good... Faith is the real wealth as it produces advantage... Vism XIV 140 How does Faith save one from pain? When one has faith in the Tathagata Unshakable and quite well established And good behaviour built on morality Liked by the Noble Ones and praised! When one has confidence in the Sangha And a view that has been made straight Then they say, that one is not poor, That one's life is not wasted... Therefore should any intelligent person, aware of the Buddha-Dhamma, be devoted to the fine faith & moral purity, which gives confirmed conviction of this saving Dhamma. SN V 405 Buddha to the Ploughman: Faith is my seed, simplicity the rain, understanding my yoke and plough, modesty is pole, & mind is the strap, awareness is my ploughshare and goad. Sn77 Alavaka - a demon - once asked the Blessed Buddha: What wealth here is best for any man? What well practiced brings happiness? What is the sweetest of all the flavours? How lived, is this life best? The Buddha: Faith is the best wealth here for any human! Dhamma well practiced brings happiness! Truth indeed is unsurpassable sweet! A wise life lived in understanding is best... Alavaka: How does one cross the flood of ills? How is the ocean of existence crossed? How is all suffering stilled? How is one purified? The Buddha: By Faith is the flood of evil crossed! By attention is the ocean crossed! By effort is all suffering stilled! By wisdom one is purified! Sn 182-184 Faith is therefore the only real Richness! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #65737 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:43 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 594- The Stages of Insight(p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd The following stage of insight is Knowledge of Terror (in Påli: bhaya ñåùa). This is not fear which is akusala, it is insight which sees more clearly the danger of all conditioned dhammas which are bound to cease. Each following stage of insight marks a growing understanding of the disadvantages of nåma and rúpa, of conditioned realities, since their true characteristics are seen more clearly. At the moment a stage of insight knowledge arises there is no clinging to nåma and rúpa, but such moments fall away and then there tends to be clinging again. One has to continue being mindful of realities and develop understanding of them until arahatship has been attained. As paññå becomes keener it becomes detached from conditioned realities and it wants to be delivered from them. It sees that conditioned realities are meaningless, void, and that they have no owner, that there is no self who can control them. Understanding brings about more dispassion and equanimity towards conditioned dhammas, although clinging has not been eradicated. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65738 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:47 pm Subject: Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN robmoult Hi Andrew, Sadhu to you for sending out this reminder. I am overseas at the moment, but my wife is attending the Dhamma talks associated with the Chief's 100 days. As I recall, Ajahn Brahm is talking tonight. I teach beginner's Abhidhamma on Sunday morning at Brickfields but we have just stopped for the year (novitiates needed the classroom). We will be starting classes again on January 7th and you are welcome to join. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Dear Andrew Leong & Rob M, > > Andrew, I think this may have been your first message on DSG, so > also welcome here. Do you also live in K.L. and visit the Vihara > there? Do you know Rob Moult? > > I'm sure all the ceremonies to commemorate the passing away for the > Venerable Dr are very special. Please feel free to share anything > about them from your experience. Rob and any other K.L. members, it > would also be good to hear from you on this (or anything else for > that matter!). > > Metta, > > Sarah > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leong" > wrote: > > > > Dear Friends in the Dhamma, > > > > Seeking your kind assistance to e-disseminate this information > below on the > > 3-month Ceremonies and Dhamma talks to commemorate the Passing > away of the > > Venerable Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda Nayaka Maha Thera. > #65739 From: "Andrew Leong" Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN ascleong Sarah, I have been on the list for a while, posted a bit quite a while back. No stranger, but a quite member! No I don not believe I've meet Rob Moult. I live in Subang Jaya, about 25 Km from KL. Andrew On 11/29/06, sarahprocterabbott wrote: > > Dear Andrew Leong & Rob M, > > Andrew, I think this may have been your first message on DSG, so > also welcome here. Do you also live in K.L. and visit the Vihara > there? Do you know Rob Moult? #65740 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cosmology and The Two Extremes sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi All, > > The two extremes are often mentioned in DSG. From my understanding, > the two extremes refers only to viewpoint positions with regard to a > self or personal identity. <...> > I present two suttas. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.048.than.html > > "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything exist?" > > "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." > > "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" > > "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman. > " > > "Then is everything a Oneness?" > > "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." > > "Then is everything a Manyness?" > > "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. > > Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the > middle ... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 'Cosmology', according to my understanding, is just a complex mind > game revolving around a self and not conditioned paramattha dhammas. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.017.than.html > > "'The one who acts is the one who experiences [the result of the act]' > amounts to the eternalist statement, 'Existing from the very > beginning, stress is self-made.' 'The one who acts is someone other > than the one who experiences' amounts to the annihilationist > statement, 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other- > made.' Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma > via the middle ... > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > According to my understanding, the above two extremes revolve around a > personal identity and not conditioned paramattha dhammas. > > What are your thoughts? Active participation is welcomed. .... S: I agree with you that the two extreme wrong views revolve around a personal identity, in other words misguided ideas. The wrong views themselves are paramattha dhammas, but the ideas, as you say, are definitely not - mere illusions about self. Metta, Sarah ======= #65741 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Neither Dear nor Undear sarahprocter... Hi Antony, To add to your fine collection of Sn 811 translations, here's the Pali: "Sabbattha muni anissito Na piya.m kubbati nopi appiya.m, Tasmi.m paradeva macchara.m Pa.n.ne vaari yathaa na lippati." **** And one more translation by Norman (PTS): "Not being dependent upon anything, a sage holds nothing as being pleasant or unpleasant. Lamentation and avarice do not cling to him, as water does not cling to a [lotus]-leaf." Metta, Sarah --- Antony Woods wrote: > To add to my reply (attached) here are: > Various translations of Sutta Nipata 811: > > Translation by Bhikkhu Khantipalo (my favorite): > The Sage is unsupported everywhere > making neither "dear" nor those "undear," > sorrow then and meanness do not stain, > as water settles not on (lotus) leaf. > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > Everywhere > the sage > independent > holds nothing dear or undear. > > In him > lamentation & selfishness, > like water on a white lotus, > do not adhere. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.06.than.html > > John D. Ireland: > A sage who is completely independent > does not make close friends or enemies. > In him sorrow and selfishness do not stay, > like water on a lotus leaf. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.06.irel.html > > Ven Dr.H.Saddhatissa: > The sage who is independent in all circumstances, > does not exhibit like or dislike. > Sorrow and avarice do not cling to him > as water does not stick to the lotus leaf. <...> #65742 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > I like to call it, "The Chinese Wife." > > While I was learning to roll dough for dumplings in the home of > Rebecca's friend from school, her mother - my dough-rolling teacher - > a Chinese woman and very kind, was discussing her impending return to > China for a visit. She was heard by me to suggest that she could > bring back with her a Chinese wife for me; she had asked moments > earlier if I was planning to re-marry, hence the statement. I was > about to laugh, since a joke is meant to elicit such a response, but I > looked first and realised she was totally serious. Despite her > sales-pitch (Chinese wives apparently are very hard workers) I > politely (I hope) declined. .... S: Being somewhat familiar with the local Chinese match-making tactics, I can assure you that a polite decline will not be taken as a 'no, thank-you', lol! Whilst you continue to seek dough-rolling instruction, she'll remain convinced that a Chinese wife is what you need:-). .... > > I don't intend to remarry. Or seek a partner. I don't pretend to > know the future either (anticipating such a retort) but I know for a > fact, given where I work, that the wise and savvy likely consider this > resolution to be an artifact of grief, and by that would mean a poor > resolution, an unhealthy resolution. There are moments when I wonder > about this resolve (we won't go into it but anyone with libido will > know). ... S:And then any resolves may not be a match for the kind Chinese lady's resolves on your part:-). ... > The world would call this unresolved grief, fear of intimacy, and > who-knows-what-other-fancy-sounding-epithet. I call it an > opportunity. Should one be seeking to find another dear when one > knows the Dhamma? Is this 'coldness'? Why seek attachment any more > than one finds it unbidden billions of times a day? .... S: Visible object one and two remains visible object one and two regardless. When we think of 'dear' in terms of those long stories about situations, we forget all about v.o. and the rest. It all comes down to the 'dear' right now, not an idea about better and worse situations for 'developing dear' or 'resisting dear' in the future. Who knows what the future will bring? With the development of sati, no need to fear. ... > > Further damaging my reputation as a human I remain, > > Scott. ... S: Love your sign-offs and witty one-liners like the one about not controlling the balance like the knobs on a stereo system and thought your comments about 'fear of loss of self from a conventional level', human beings as utter fiction and so on were interesting. Keep 'rolling' the dough and the posts and keep us posted with any more 'Chinese wife' installments:-). Metta, Sarah ===== #65743 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN sarahprocter... Hi Andrew (Leong), --- Andrew Leong wrote: > Sarah, > > I have been on the list for a while, posted a bit quite a while back. No > stranger, but a quite member! ... S: Thanks for reminding me. I wondered at the time and just checked and saw your 'just do it' post to Phil a while back. I think he's following your advice:-). ... > > No I don not believe I've meet Rob Moult. I live in Subang Jaya, about > 25 Km > from KL. .... S: Ok, I'll remember now and I'm sure you will meet Rob M in due course. I see he's kindly just chipped in. I know at least one or two other friends/students of his from the temple lurk here, so perhaps you can encourage them to de-lurk too. Look forward to hearing more from you. Are you going to many of the ceremonies/talks? Metta, Sarah ======== #65744 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, Howard & TG, I was following your discussion. --- nidive wrote: > > Consciousness without feature, > > without end, > > luminous all around: > > Here water, earth, fire, & wind > > have no footing. > > Here long & short > > coarse & fine > > fair & foul > > name & form > > are all brought to an end. > > With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness > > each is here brought to an end.'" > > I suspect that "consciousness without feature" refers to a special > type of concentration that takes nibbana as its object. This type of > special concentration is spoken of by the Buddha and Sariputta. .... Sarah: I know you all prefer to stick to just the suttas as much as possible, but I'm curious to know if you have any problem with the following comments on these similar lines in the Udana commentary which I posted a long while back: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8908 >UDANA- NIBBANA 2 Just to repeat the initial extract: > Udana VIII.1 > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... (p.1012 Udana-a): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** Metta, Sarah ====== #65745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN nilovg Hi Rob M, I am so glad to see you. I have been thinking of you much when hearing about the Chief reverend's passing away and wanted to ask you about your observations and your kusala, so that we all can share in appreciating it. I always enjoy it very much when you write about your dana or other kusala. I am glad you continue your Abhidhamma class. so in this respect there are no changes. Nina. Op 29-nov-2006, om 8:47 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > Sadhu to you for sending out this reminder. I am overseas at the > moment, but my wife is attending the Dhamma talks associated with the > Chief's 100 days. #65746 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Hi Mike, Connie, Antony & all, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, Antony, Connie et al., > > Thanks very much for all these citations. I think they're priceless > reflections, recollections, and a reminder of the extent to which > concepts > condition dhammas--even (of course) with no conceiver behind the > concepts. ... S: Yes, quite so, for ariyans too as is made clear. Still lots of papanca for a sotapanna without any wrong view about human beings existing in an ultimate sense. All that accumulated sa~n~naa in particular that has marked and recollected particular ideas on account of particular dhammas. Thanks for chipping in, Mike. Metta, Sarah > ----- Original Message ----- > --- Antony Woods wrote: > > > I found this sutta (Visakha was a sotapanna, I think from the age of > > 7 and went on to have many children and grandchildren): > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html <...> #65747 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:57 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Ken H, --- Phil wrote: > But not all suttas make the ultimate realities you describe above > as the object of understanding, not by any means. In Anguttara > Nikaya, they are mostly about people and what people should do to be > more ethical, to be happier, to be disciples of the Buddha in > conventional ways, which often involve comparing people to other > people. .... S: The Puggala Pa~n~natti (Designation of Human Types), a volume of the Abhidhamma Pitaka is interesting because after giving a table of contents, in lay-out it follows the style of Anguttara Nikaya and includes many AN suttas. Starting with the table of contents, it lists the six kinds of designations by way of: 1) khandhas 2) ayatanas 3) dhatus 4) Noble Truths 5) Indriyas 6) Puggala Pannatti The text then elaborates on the last category and 'people' and 'persons' are used throughout. However, I think all such terms and language have to be read and understood in the light of categories 1) -5) and the rest of the Abhidhamma about paramattha dhammas. For example, under the first grouping of Human Types by One, we read about different people, such as different kinds of ariyans, but really these refer to cittas and cetasikas. For example, I didn't know what was meant by the 10th kind: 'One become of the family of the Ariyas'. The footnote indicates that this refers to 'gotrabhuu' and the commentary elaborates that 'this term is applied to a person who has reached the family, circle, or designation of Ariyas by surpassing the family, circle, or designation of ordinary persons through the knowledge acquired by meditation on Nirvana'. Of course, gotrabhu actually just refers to a single momentary citta prior to that of the magga citta (path consciousness), when nibbana becomes the object of citta for the first time. In other words, I think the suttas about people can be appreciated at different levels. In our recent discussions in Bangkok some of the concerns people have about 'too much ultimate' was raised and K.Sujin's response was an emphatic 'never enough!'. 'It's the truth!'. Yes, whatever the topic, whatever the language, the truth is about paramattha dhammas. I like Ken H's: "The Middle Way is a way of understanding! It is not a way of people and things to do! That's why there are no instructions - only explanations!". I also love Phil's cognac-oops-abhidhamma night-cap humour and latest rocking-the-boat verve:-)). Better to be honest with what one thinks in this way than just toeing-the-party-line and going quiet when one disagrees. Metta, Sarah ======= #65748 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN robmoult Hi Nina, Thank you so much for asking me to remember my final experiences with Chief. They are special to me and reflecting upon them gives me great joy. Like many who knew Chief, I had a special feeling for him and I believe that he also had a special feeling for me. Chief had that talent of making whoever was with him feel special. About one month before he passed away, Chief was in hospital in KL and my wife and I decided to visit him. I have to admit that I was a little hesitant because I wanted to think of him as a lively, humour- filled teacher, not as an incapacitated old man. There was a queue of well-wishers passing through his hospital room. As I went in, he was surrounded by two monks and he was mumbling incoherently in Sinhalese... of course, it might have been more coherent if I spoke Sinhalese :-). As soon as he saw me, his eyes suddenly lit up, his face lit up, he smiled a broad smile and motioned me to come toward him. I paid respect and he put his hand upon my bald head (Chief liked to tease me about my bald head). Chief said, "I will see you at the temple". His words were strong and clear. I replied, "Yes, Chief" and I just looked into his eyes. A couple of days later, Chief's condition deteriorated and he was transferred to a Singapore hospital. He did not return to KL until about a week before his passing away. The day before he passed away, I visited him again at the hospital. He had not spoken for a few days and the room had six monks chanting parittas. As I entered the room and saw Chief lying peacefully, I heard the monks chanting "Avijjapaccaya sankhara Sankhara-paccaya viññanam Viññana- paccaya nama-rupam..." I just whispered, "Thank you" and left the room quietly reciting the chant over and over in my mind. The next time that I saw him, he was back at the temple, lying in state. Throngs of people, it did not feel very personal. The preparation for the funeral was elaborate. There were about ten thousand devotees who went to the cemetery for the cremation. A three- story high funeral pyre was built and filled with 5,000 kg of sandalwood. Things were extremely well organized. Nina, to give you my honest opinion, I feel that the lying in state, the funeral and the tributes over the past three months are more like ceremonies and they have less impact on me than the one-on-one experiences that I have had with Chief. Sometimes these one-on-one experiences involved just Chief and I, sometimes it was when I attended one of his Dhamma talks, sometimes when I listed to his tapes or read his books. These were the personal memories that I will always cherish. These personal memories have more impact on me than the ceremonial moments. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I will let you in on a secret... I have an unofficial arrangement with Sarah such that if there are any messages on-list that she feels that I should know about, she drops me an email. So if you would like to include me in any of your messages, Sarah will let me know and I will always reply. My work has been very time-consuming over the past year and I regret that I have not had more time for DSG. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > I am so glad to see you. I have been thinking of you much when > hearing about the Chief reverend's passing away and wanted to ask you > about your observations and your kusala, so that we all can share in > appreciating it. I always enjoy it very much when you write about > your dana or other kusala. I am glad you continue your Abhidhamma > class. so in this respect there are no changes. > Nina. > Op 29-nov-2006, om 8:47 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > > > Sadhu to you for sending out this reminder. I am overseas at the > > moment, but my wife is attending the Dhamma talks associated with the > > Chief's 100 days. > #65749 From: "Andrew Leong" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN ascleong Hi Sarah/Rob. Yup, about to go leave for Ajahn Brahm's talk. Will try to his jokes it with the group later :-) with Metta. Andrew #65750 From: JC Mendoza Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions again jcmendoza1000 "..."Then there is the case where a certain teacher has attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into homelessness. He, having attained that goal of the contemplative life, teaches his disciples, 'This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.' His disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an intent for gnosis. They practice in a way deviating from the teacher's instructions. He should be criticized, saying, 'You, venerable sir, have attained the goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home life into homelessness. Having attained that goal of the contemplative life, you teach your disciples, "This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness." Your disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an intent for gnosis, and practice in a way deviating from the teacher's instructions. It's just as if, having cut through an old bond, one were to make another new bond. I say that such a thing is an evil, greedy deed, for what can one person do for another?' This is the third teacher who is worthy of criticism in the world, and when anyone criticizes this sort of teacher, the criticism is true, factual, righteous, & unblameworthy." When this was said, the brahmin Lohicca said to the Blessed One, "But is there, Master Gotama, any teacher who is not worthy of criticism in the world?" "There is, Lohicca, a teacher who is not worthy of criticism in the world." "But which teacher, Master Gotama, is not worthy of criticism in the world?" "There is the case, Lohicca, where a Tathagata appears in the world, worthy & rightly self-awakened. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure. "A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata..." That's what the sutta says that even if a "certain teacher has attained the goal of the contemplative life" and teaches others "he should be criticized..." and "this criticism is true, factual, righteous, and unblameworthy." And arahats aren't perfect right? What if there is one who teaches wrong things apart from the Dhamma (since his knowledge about the Dhamma is complete) and it is dangerously sucking one into the evanescence of its ignorance? One can't help but safeguard oursleves from such a person even if he is an arahat. But the problem and question here is won't you accrue much bad kamma for shunning and looking down on the arahat? sarah abbott wrote: Hi JC, --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > To all: > Does any one know why the Awakened One taught us that even if a monk > has achieveed the goal of the contemplative life, he is still worthy > of criticism (Digha Nikaya 12 Lohicca Sutta ) and he implies there > that only a Tathagatha is worthy and completely beyond criticism that > is factual. Does this mean that even arhats can be criticized? Won't > we beget much demerit for that even if it is factual? > - JC .... S: I think if you read the sutta clearly, it is bhikkhus who teach wrong views that are to be criticised and not only the Tathagatha, but any of his disciples who 'practise the moralities', 'guard the sense-doors', 'attain jhanas', 'various insights', 'realise the Four Noble Truths', follow 'the path' etc are not to be blamed. At the end of the sutta, Brahmin Lohicca realises his own wrong views and takes refuge in the Triple Gem. Pls take a careful look and let me know if you wish to discuss it further. <...> #65751 From: JC Mendoza Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions jcmendoza1000 Hi Sarah, The article is Theravada/Mahayana since the cosmology of the two are more or less the same according to the source and not Tibetan and its in wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Buddhist_ cosmology. Sorry for the late reply, I've been quite busy these past days. I just want to know about the cosmology of the religion. sarah abbott wrote: Hi JC, (Leo & all), You asked some difficult number-crunching questions which I don't think anyone responded to. Here are a couple of ideas: --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > To everyone: > Concerning lifespan of devas in the heavens and the realm of humans > (Manuṣyaloka). In Buddhist Cosmology in Wikipedia > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology) it says the > Vibhajyav¨¡da tradition which it says is the Theravada tradition > believes > that the devas of the Four Great Kings live for 90,000 human years > while the Mahayana believes they live for 9,000,000 human years. But > in the Theravadin Access to Insight website > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-70.html) it holds > that they live for 9,000,000 human years. The same goes for the > lifespan of the other devas in higher heavens, Access to Insight seems > to hold the belief of the Sarvastivadin tradition mentioned in the > Wiki article. So which is which? .... S: What it says in AN 3s, 70 (PTS tranls) is: "...fifty years of human life are a single night and day to the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Thirty such days and nights make a month. Twelve of such months make a year. Five hundred of such years make up the life period of the Devas of the Four Great Kings." I'll leave you to do the caluculation. .... > And also, concerning Manusyaloka, the article says: > * Manuṣyaloka (Tib: mi) ¨C This is the world of humans and > human-like > beings who live on the surface of the earth. <...> > Now, we all know now that the earth is round unlike what is mentioned > in the article of it having horizontal limits and that there are many > continents in it but all can be reached by boat and that none of the > people living there are more that 8 feet tall. People who grow 5 to 6 > feet not only live in Jambudipa but also in all other continents that > make up the world as we know today ( and why aren't these other > continents named in Manusyaloka), are people mentioned in the article > being 12 -48 feet tall myths or do they really exist and we still have > no means to reach them? And why is Manusyaloka represented as > horizontal instead of it being round? .... S: I didn't check the article, but is this based on Tibetan sources? If you give me a reference to a Theravada/Pali source, I'll follow up:-). <...> #65752 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > Thx for bringing my attention to your post - I have dozens in a file > which I plan to get to when I can, but let me add a bit to this one > now. > ... Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reaction S: How did your lecture go? Pls share the details if you care to. J: It was for a (inter-traditional) dutch organization 'Friends of Buddhism' about engaged buddhism My lecture is already put on internet in www.vriendenvanboeddhisme.nl/html/archief_najaar2006_joopromeijn.html but I'm afraid Nina is the only one who can read it (it's in dutch) Partly it has a fundamental part, based on the Suttas (and even based on Buddhaghosa, his unscientific way of explaining the term 'karuna'; see below) why one should be as - a buddhist - engaged. The next question then is: should there be an organisation 'engaged buddhism' because buddhism itself is engaged (as said by Thich Nath Hanh). My answer: yes because most buddhists don't know this. Partly is more practical: what is happening in the Netherlands (not so much). The third part is about 'buddhism and ecology': about the warming of our planet and our responsiblity so save life. I'm more pessimistic then you, in your remark in your message: S: I don't think pollution is the condition that will determine whether life continues on:-) J: (earlier) > My problem was another one, the definition of BB in MCA, page > 207/208: " nihilism (natthika-di.t.thi), which denies the survival of > the personality in any form after death, THUS negating the moral significance of deeds;…" > I'm not insulted by this definition but I think it's terribly wrong. S: I had no problem with the 'thus-part'. If one believes that life doesn't continue on from life to life, one doesn't believe kamma will continue to bring its results from life to life while ignorance exists as taught by the Buddha. J: I still have two problems One is the logic of the "thus': this is no formal logic. It's possible to denie the survival of the personality in any form after death, without negating the moral significance of deeds. Two is the moral aspect of the 'thus'; it suggest a kind of moral superiority. Only who don't denie the survival of the personality in any form after death, confirms (=not-negates) the moral significance of deeds. And 'kamma' is for me: that what continues to have its influence is this life. J (earlier)> I think "accumulated tendencies" exist, but that the distinguishment ultimate-conventional has a flaw. S: Well, if we come back to the 'now' as you suggested at the outset, the accumulated tendency is just that which arises now - kusala or akusala. J: Yes, in terms ultimate truth a cetasika just arises; but there are two truths (and NOT one truth and one illusion); it's no problem to describe that what happens in a combination of the two truths, that is to same as 'the two kind of realities'. So one can also say: at the arising of that cetasika a latent tendency got manifest, in which the expression 'latent tendency' itself is a concept, a conceptual reality. No reason to respond Sarah: we simply don't agree, I think. Metta Joop "Buddhaghosa, whose commentaries are the central authority for the interpretation of the Pâli scriptures for Theravâda Buddhism, gives an analysis of the word "karuṇâ" that shows that in mainstream Buddhism, the concept of compassion calls for aggressive action for the relief of the suffering of others: 'When others suffer it makes the heart of good people tremble (kampa), thus it is karunâ; it demolishes others' suffering, attacks and banishes it, thus it is karunâ; or it is dispersed over the suffering, is spread out through pervasion, thus it is karunâ' (Paradukkhe sati sâdhûnan hadayakampanan karoti iti karuṇâ; kiṇâti vâ paradukkhan, hiṃsati vinâseti iti karuṇâ; kiriyati vâ dukkhiteṣu, pharaṇavasena pasâriyati iti karuṇâ. Visuddhimagga of Buddhaghosâcariya, Harvard Oriental Series, vol. 41, ed. Henry Clarke Warren, revised Dharmananda Kosambi, (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1950), chapter IX, verse 92, p. 263) Buddhaghosa is implicitly giving a philological analysis (nirutti) here. What is important here is not the actual etymology, but the meanings presented through this traditional analysis." Source: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/7/jenkins001.html #65753 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:04 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply: S: "...a polite decline will not be taken as a 'no, thank-you', lol! Whilst you continue to seek dough-rolling instruction, she'll remain convinced that a Chinese wife is what you need:-)." Oh. Well, they do work hard... S: "Visible object one and two remains visible object one and two regardless. When we think of 'dear' in terms of those long stories about situations, we forget all about v.o. and the rest. It all comes down to the 'dear' right now, not an idea about better and worse situations for 'developing dear' or 'resisting dear' in the future. "Who knows what the future will bring? With the development of sati, no need to fear." Long stories and dreams. I dreamt of my wife last night. She was going somewhere. She was dying. She was planning to celebrate something. She was considered by others to be a mystic and a wise woman. She was speaking of her plans to drink wine and seek pleasure and how it would loosen her tongue. I saw that she was beautiful, I looked at her body, and glimpsed her breast, realising as I did that this was not the woman I thought I was remembering. She had become someone else. Then I was in some sort of support group where again someone was going to use her story as proof of something I didn't agree with. Actually I was just thinking in pictures and feeling in my sleep. Actually this was all about 'me'. The thoughts and the story were just like life and the point about it all being a dream is never clearer. In the dream I felt deeply bereft and betrayed as it was clear there was not one ounce of control I had over events. This was suffering. She was going to do what she was going to do. The 'support group', of course, is DSG. And I guess the thoughts in the night must be about recent discussions as well. Since dreaming is thinking and since mundane life with its apparent coherence is all thinking, awake or asleep, it is clear that these 'deeper' thoughts are only thoughts. And these are thoughts about 'self'. I create very intricate fictions about people. Awake and asleep, no difference. Alive or dead, no difference. This is why I feel things like 'bereft' and 'betrayed' - because I seek to claim and lay hold of. These dream thoughts boil down, for me, to a snapshot of the less conscious elements of my very real difficulty letting go of self view. A serious consideration of dream thoughts - thoughts thinking themselves without the illusion of a waking thinker - is opportunity to see thoughts as anatta. Howard's stories and our recent discussion, sadly curtailed, emerged in dream thoughts and serve to remind me of teaching the medical and psychiatry residents about psychodynamic assessment and psychotherapy. Time and again we try to exhort these future helping professionals to examine their own motives for wanting to help. No one helps until this sort of examination is done. Time and again we see these ones to be totally caught up in a 'need to help'. A person's 'need to help' is clearly and essentially a selfish one. While 'helping' someone is a fiction, given the strictures imposed by the reality of no control, the paradox remains that one can 'help' only when one no longer needs to 'help'. Conventional interpersonal psychodynamics are rife with intricacies of their own. The stories are massively complex. Self-view is rampant, obviously. One cannot be too careful about the illusion of altruism. What I want for someone is only what I want. What I think should happen is only what I think. My goal for someone else is arrogance. My pleasure at having apparently 'helped' someone is only my pleasure. We try to show the residents that their own needs only serve to block the work of a patient. And all this due to a belief in persons and a self. I don't mean to be controversial here, Sarah. I'm only offering opinions about what I think are misconceptions about 'helping'. To be clear, the beautiful dhammas - loving kindness and the like - are real. Of this there is no doubt. What is false is the notion that these automatically arise when one decides to enact wholesomeness. This decision to act is not, in and of itself, an on-off switch. In our residents I see a lot of illusion about selves that are good, helpful, wise, know better, and the like. We are thought of as jaded and callous when we point this out to the residents. The residents fear that to be otherwise is to be mean and inhuman. They are wrong. Ahh, well. Enough musing. We'll see about the Chinese wife, eh? I actually have to host two Chinese residents next week and show them around the Clinic. Perhaps one of them will be a woman. Wouldn't it be grand to have a Chinese wife who is also a physician?! With loving kindness, Scott. #65754 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana I, 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 11/29/06 12:02:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for the encouragement. > > > That approach wasn't so good for me. I didn't find the > labeling to be > >good, considering it to be an imposing of concept instead of a > direct looking. > >But it might be fine for you. It is a very individual matter. > > Yes, I note, but don't use a word, or words. ---------------------------------------- Howard: My personal opinion is that that is a good approach. Noting in the sense of actually being aware of what is happening is *only* good, as I see it. Being wordlessly aware of an itch or a pain, clearly aware and not smudging together all the experiences, is important, I believe. But, actually, staying alert and clearly attending is adequate for that, I think, with the noting being a natural, automatic result. Intention (specifically) to note, as opposed to intention to "see", if you get the distinction, may lead to an imposing of "self" that short circuits the process - at least that is my experience. At times, of course, when a pattern that frequently arises comes up, for example certain experiences then followed by desire and distraction, you will get an "aha!" moment, and words characterizing the situation may then arise. That's fine. It's an insight followed by the mind "trying to capture it" with words. Just see all that's happening and go on. One important thing to keep in mind: Though the Mahasi people call what they do insight meditation, it involves many factors, and I do not think one should engage in it with expectation of the arising of insight during the course of the meditating. Insights may or may not arise. Neighborhood concentration or jhana may or may not be achieved. If they do, that is wonderful, especially if greeted with relative equanimity and willingness to relinquish. If they do not, then conditions simply were not in place for them. But cultivation of the mind will be achieved, and that is what the process is about. ------------------------------------------ But I do find that it > > helps just to experience the flow of physical/mental phenomena while > meditating. The thing I don't get about Mahasi is the "do everything > slow" approach, or the slow walking meditation. It does seem in line > with the commentary to the satipattha sutta, in which the footstep > is broken down into elemental phases but I won't do it unless I ever > go on a retreat and am asked to do it. Then I'll do it out of good > manners. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Observationally breaking down the walking process will automatically lead to a slowing down, because, at least at first, our mind isn't sufficiently adept to see the breakdown at normal speed. You'll automatically go as slow as you need to go to see what there is to see. I can tell you that some of my "deepest" meditation, shockingly deep in fact, occured for me during 30 minutes of walking meditation at a 2-day "commuter retreat" at which sitting & walking meditations were interspersed. It *can* be quite amazing. The retreat teacher, an erstwhile monk under Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, was, BTW, rather informal as regards slowing down movement and about "labeling". ---------------------------------------- > > Yeah, I'll take it easy. Too much enthusiasm at the beginning > would just lead to burn out. But I feel a lot of faith to go for it. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's very good, faith, but without expectations. Remember that the point is cultivation, not immediate "results". Also, as you say, "burning out" is a danger. Keep in mind the middle way, neither sloughing off nor trying too hard. And keep a ready smile! ;-) --------------------------------------- > I like what Sayadaw U Pandita said - if there is not faith at the > beginning, there cannot be the energy that is required for > mindfulness, and without mindfulness...well, you get the picture. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, he's right. But real "faith" comes about from seeing that the Buddha really had "the goods"! And that comes later. So, at first, the "faith" should be more of a trust and willingness to come & see. ------------------------------------ > > Obviously, I'm not concerned about clinging to comfort or craving > pleasant sensations or lobha or greed for results or any of that any > more, or not for the time being - though I have a lot of respect for > people like Nina and others who have practiced so long and so > diligently without indulging in the immediate, tangible benefits of > meditation. Great patience and courage, I think. -------------------------------------- Howard: They are certainly building a strong foundation of intellectual understanding, a solid base. ------------------------------------- > > Oh, another thing I like about Mahasi is the abdominal breathing > involved. That's a good, healthy habit for us all to get into, > whether related to meditation or not. More oxygen to the brain! I > think it's why I feel so perky these days. -------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. My preference is taking the breath sensations at the nostrils as primary focus. Neither way is any more "meditating on the breath" than the other, though. One reason for my preference for the nostril focus is that in addition to motion and expansiveness (air element) and *maybe* the earth element in the form of pressure observed at the abdomen, at the nostils can be noted moisture (water) and warmth on the outbreath & coolness on the inbreath (fire). So I see it as a somewhat more complete rupic venue. ---------------------------------------- > > OK, I am signing off now until January. My writing is starting to > pick up again. See you all in 2007! :) --------------------------------------- Howard: Be well, Phil! :-) ------------------------------------ > > Phil > > ==================== With metta, Howard #65755 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Swee Boon & TG) - I see nibbana as not just one more reality, separate from the others and different. Instead I see nibbana as the open, free, and empty nature of all the (merely) apparently separate and self-existent, conditioned dhammas. I view nibbana as the consumate reality, and not as just one more "element" that is unique in being unconditioned. As I see it, the end of ignorance and the realiztion of nibbana are one and the same. When phenomena are seen just as they are, that is seeing of nibbana, I believe. When/where there "is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness," it is not that these phenomena have disappeared or ceased to exist, but rather that their appearance as separate, self-existent entitities has been seen through, replaced by the reality that is nibbana. That is my perspective, Sarah, and I know that I stand alone in it among this group of four. You asked, so I reply. But I don't do so for purposes of debate. This is my perspective, and I'm not looking to debate it. I'm just reporting it, because. you asked. With metta, Howard #65756 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: THE JOURNEY OF A GREAT MAN nilovg Dear Rob M, Thank you very much for your moving account. Especially this one I quote below about the monks chanting the D.O. text, so very meaningful. And the moment that he recognized you and was glad to see you. Yes, let Sarah include also my posts that are of interest to you. I am happy that you wrote inspite of all your work. Nina. Op 29-nov-2006, om 12:27 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > As I entered the room > and saw Chief lying peacefully, I heard the monks > chanting "Avijjapaccaya sankhara Sankhara-paccaya viññanam Viññana- > paccaya nama-rupam..." I just whispered, "Thank you" and left the > room quietly reciting the chant over and over in my mind. #65757 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... m_nease Hi Scott, Thanks for this, especially: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Duncan To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:04 AM Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... "...One cannot be too careful about the illusion of altruism. What I want for someone is only what I want. What I think should happen is only what I think. My goal for someone else is arrogance. My pleasure at having apparently 'helped' someone is only my pleasure...I don't mean to be controversial here, Sarah. I'm only offeringopinions about what I think are misconceptions about 'helping'. To be clear, the beautiful dhammas - loving kindness and the like - are real. Of this there is no doubt. What is false is the notion that these automatically arise when one decides to enact wholesomeness. This decision to act is not, in and of itself, an on-off switch. In our residents I see a lot of illusion about selves that are good, helpful, wise, know better, and the like. We are thought of as jaded and callous when we point this out to the residents. The residents fear that to be otherwise is to be mean and inhuman. They are wrong." Yes, they are, so am I when I think like this. Good to know this, very useful. Infinitely better than reveling in 'my kusala' IMHO. mike #65758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:38 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life 136. nilovg Dear friends, In the Discourse on the Manifold Elements (Middle Length Sayings III, no. 115) we read that the Buddha, while he was staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anåthapiùèika's monastery, said to the monks: ``Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man... Monks, there is not fear, trouble, misfortune for the wise man. Wherefore, monks, thinking, `Investigating, we will become wise', this is how you must train yourselves, monks.'' When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: ``What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: `Investigating, the monk is wise'?'' ``Ånanda, as soon as a monk is skilled in the elements and skilled in the sense-fields (åyatanas) and skilled in conditioned genesis and skilled in the possible and the impossible, it is at this stage, Ånanda, that it suffices to say, `Investigating, the monk is wise.' `` ``But, revered sir, at what stage does it suffice to say, `The monk is skilled in the elements'?'' ``There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of visible object, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of tangible object, the element of body-consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mind-objects, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, `The monk is skilled in the elements. ` `` ****** Nina. #65759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:43 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, I, 9. nilovg Dear friends, Sarah said that she likes to earn money with her work since that gives her an opportunity to travel to Bangkok or to England. But she finds that the Dhamma makes one feel ashamed of liking to earn money. Khun Sujin said: "You don't understand yourself completely, you are not honest with yourself. One should understand one's own accumulations." Those who have attained enlightenment are "people who walk straight", "ujupatipanno". They know their accumulations, they are honest to themselves. Sometimes I feel ashamed about liking to read magazines and novels. However, satipaììhåna should be developed naturally, so that one realizes one's accumulated inclinations as not self. Next to my bed I have suttas as well as magazines and novels. At times I take up a sutta, at times a magazine or novel. I cannot tell beforehand what I will do, it is dependent on conditions. Also while reading a magazine there can be a few moments of considering visible object and then one is absorbed again in the story, which is a different moment. When we look at other people satipa.t.thåna can be developed naturally. When we see colours of hair, lips, eyebrows or skin, we think of them as belonging to the different parts of the body, but we should remember that all these colours are just visible object, they appear through the eyesense. They could not appear if we close our eyes. Colour which appears is not the same colour all over, it is not all grey or black. Many different colours appear but they are just visible object, they are experienced by seeing. While we are eating many different flavours appear, such as flavour which is sweet, sour or salty. Tasting-consciousness experiences all the different flavours which impinge on the tastingsense. ******* Nina. #65760 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah (and Swee Boon & TG) - > ... > That is my perspective, Sarah, and I know that I stand alone in it > among this group of four. You asked, so I reply. But I don't do so for purposes > of debate. This is my perspective, and I'm not looking to debate it. I'm just > reporting it, because. you asked. > > With metta, > Howard > Hallo Howard, Not to debate, but stuff for thinking Thanks Metta Joop #65761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. nilovg Hi Howard, Yes, but there are different moments with different intentions. It is really hard to understand this complex mix of kusala and akusala that we are. But that is the reason that we need help from the Biuddha to develop a more precise understanding. All that we learn from the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included, is not for the purpose of only intellectual understanding, but for the purpose of the eradication of defilements. Nina. Op 29-nov-2006, om 2:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The usual intent involved with abstaining from akusala actions is, > indeed, kusala. Akusala intentions could, of course, be possible - > for example > abstaining from unwholesome actions to gain positive status in the > eyes of > others. But, typically, abstention from akusala is kusala. #65762 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:14 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. nilovg Hi Phil (and Scott), As to labeling by Ven. Pandita, did you know that Rob K has on his forum an article about this, with quotes from the Ven. one? it may be of interest. -------- . Ph:< It does seem in line with the commentary to the satipattha sutta, in which the footstep is broken down into elemental phases but I won't do it unless I ever go on a retreat and am asked to do it. Then I'll do it out of good manners.> ------ N: You should try it, then you can find out whether it makes any difference as to the cittas that arise and fall away. The footstep broken down, yes you can also read it in Vis. but this is only for teaching purposes, to show that there are only elements. I discussed this before with Tep. (I miss him). When you are back Jan. 7, we, the Bgk travelers are gone. Can you not make an exception with this in mind? How was your visit to the Mahasi center? I am busy revising the English of Perfections. I sometimes translate too literally and then it is not so clear. I am still eflecting on Scott's good examples about helping, wanting to help. We are such a mix, at one moment it may be sincere but at another moment it is self centered, more often than we would think. This reminds me of the Perfection of Truthfulness we need so badly. Knowing about kusala citta and akusala citta and other details about cetasikas is by no means intelletualization, it is meant of investigation when it occurs. Here is a quote from the Perfection of Determination: Quote: < We should not be neglectful in our determination for kusala. Day after day we are infatuated with the objects appearing through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, and we are absorbed in thinking of the objects we experience. If we often listen to the Dhamma, we accumulate the inclination to contemplate the Dhamma instead of thinking of insignificant things. Even if we do not always have the opportunity to listen, we may still reflect on the Dhamma and this shows us the strength of accumulated inclinations. It reminds us not to be neglectful with regard to the perfection of determination. The Dhamma as taught by the Buddha is of immense benefit to all of us. We should contemplate the Dhamma in all details. If we wish to develop paññå and all the different ways of kusala, we should not neglect knowing and understanding our own akusala. Otherwise we cannot accumulate the perfections of determination and of truthfulness. If we see the danger and disdavantage of akusala, it can condition the firm resolution to develop kusala with the aim to eradicate defilements, and this is the perfection of determination. If a person does not know himself as he really is and if he believes himself to be superior to other people, he is attached to the good qualities he erroneously pretends to have. We are full of all kinds of akusala, no matter whether we are eating, enjoying ourselves or performing our tasks in daily life. If we do not know ourselves as we really are and if we take ourselves for a righteous person who does not need to continue developing kusala, we do not notice that we are guided by akusala. As we develop the perfection of determination, we shall be steadfast in our resolution to develop paññå through the study and practice of the Dhamma with the aim of eradicating all defilements. We also need the perfection of truthfulness and this means that we should be sincere and straightforward in our determination. If we do not develop the perfection of truthfulness we shall vacillate and be defeated by akusala. We can see that we need a refined and detailed understanding of our different cittas for the development of kusala. We should not be neglectful with regard to this.> ****** Nina. Op 29-nov-2006, om 1:24 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > It helps us to understand > > that the sense-cognitions are vipaka, and our reactions to these > are > > cittas which are cause: kusala citta or akusala citta. If we do > not > > know this there will be a hopeless confusion. > > Ph: This is a great section of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. It's > a great book. #65763 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:57 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Glad to hear you are feeling a bit better, and I hope you are completely well soon. ------------- S: > I like Ken H's: "The Middle Way is a way of understanding! It is not a way of people and things to do! That's why there are no instructions - only explanations!" -------------- Thanks, you taught me everything I know. :-). I was thinking; "way" (of understanding) can mean both "path" and "manner" can't it? Even though there is no traveller on it, the Middle Way is a path in that there are progressive stages of insight. More importantly, it is the manner in which we understand the present moment. Whatever happens, we understand there are really only namas and rupas. And it doesn't matter which nama or rupa becomes the object of understanding; the path is "lovely at the beginning, lovely at the middle and lovely at the end." Speaking of health: I was reminded the other day of your surfing injury. One our locals (Noosa's oldest mad-keen surfer - seven years older than me) got hit by a surfboard in exactly the same place you did. There must be a lot of blood vessels on the top of the head because, as in your case, he bled like a stuck pig. He told me it actually spurted out. He fainted when he got to hospital, and they gave him a transfusion. So I can understand why the shocked Coff's Harbour residents called that [very expensive] ambulance for you. It's a good thing there are only namas and rupas - otherwise, we'd have to feel sorry for you. :-) Ken H #65764 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 11/29/06 2:55:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Howard, > > Not to debate, but stuff for thinking > Thanks > > Metta > Joop > ================ Thank YOU! :-) With metta, Howard #65765 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:57 pm Subject: Vism.XVII.118 Vism.XVII,119 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 118. Thus he figures, blinded by ignorance. He is like a blind man who wanders about the earth, encountering now right and now wrong paths, now heights and now hollows, now even and now uneven ground, and so he forms formations now of merit, now of demerit, now imperturbable. 119. Hence this is said: As one born blind, who gropes along Without assistance from a guide, Chooses a road that may be right At one time, at another wrong, So while the foolish man pursues The round of births without a guide, Now to do merit he may choose And now demerit in such plight. But when the Dhamma he comes to know And penetrates the truths besides, Then ignorance is put to flight At last, and he in peace may go. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With ignorance as condition there are formations'. ************************* 118. so avijjaaya andhiikato eva.m vikappento yathaa naama andho pathaviya.m vicaranto maggampi amaggampi thalampi ninnampi samampi visamampi pa.tipajjati, eva.m pu~n~nampi apu~n~nampi aane~njaabhisa"nkhaarampi abhisa"nkharotiiti. 119. teneta.m vuccati -- ``yathaapi naama jaccandho, naro apari.naayako. ekadaa yaati maggena, ummaggenaapi ekadaa.. sa.msaare sa.msara.m baalo, tathaa apari.naayako. karoti ekadaa pu~n~na.m, apu~n~namapi ekadaa.. yadaa ca ~natvaa so dhamma.m, saccaani abhisamessati. tadaa avijjuupasamaa, upasanto carissatiiti.. aya.m avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraati padasmi.m vitthaarakathaa. #65766 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. philofillet Hi Nina > When you are back Jan. 7, we, the Bgk travelers are gone. Can you not > make an exception with this in mind? No, this time no exception! Naomi met a woman who has a lot of connections with editors and publishers and this is providing an impetus for getting my stories ready to submit. So my absence will be due to that rather due to some obsession with meditation, don't worry. > How was your visit to the Mahasi center? Maybe tomorrow. I am not anticipating too much. Perhaps it will be very helpful for discouraging me from Mahasi if there is any hard push for money donations the way there was at a Japanese Theravada web site Sarah linked me to. I'm very dubious about the monetary motivation of Japanese Buddhist places, even if they are Theravada. Money, money, money - keep your hand out of my pocket, Mercedes driving monk - it is bad for you!!! So we'll talk again in February, you know that will come so fast. Phil p.s I've bookmarked this post, so I will be reading it, surely. And thank you Sarah for your post. #65767 From: connie Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:57 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nichiconn Dear Scott, My heart leapt for joy at your disinclination to traffic in humans... those wives, you know, have views of their own they gratuitously inflict upon their environs. Oh, no harm meant, of course, being merely (albeit lovingly) subservient to their own peculiar set of understandings and faithful to that sense of righteousness. Still, "the defiled inclinations of beings are two [towards eternalism and towards annihilationism, and the present case is not one of annihilationism]." Candy from a madwoman's basket may taste sweet, but is it Divinity, the love of gods we'd ask, or more sticky gobs of vile confections to feed unhealthy appetites? How becoming of a pig are soul-felt squeals of delight - what abandonment. I say between mouthfuls... don't know what I've eaten, but I'm full of opinions. Fix me, I'm broken. Phydo, heal. For "the love of gods", practice on children! - patience, kindness, giving, etc. - but if it's not a Means to the End, what good is it? Have to take the good along with the bad, I guess. Rotten deal, that. If it were all obviously ugly or distasteful etc. , who'd be needing SamVega? We'd all sit around basking in ignorance. Just ask me. On second thought, connie. - Illustrator on 'Aid for mother and father' [Good Omen stanza 5: << Maataapitu-upa.t.thaana"m puttadaarassa sangaho Anaakulaa ca kammantaa: etam mangalam uttama"m >>] Parents << stand, as it were, in the place of the High Divinity and are reckoned as equal to the Former Teachers {... cut ...} Furthermore, he who aids his mother and father by arousing in them confidence in the three Objects [of faith - in the Enlightened One, the True Idea and the Community -] by getting them to give effect to virtue, or by the Going Forth, is the foremost of those who aid their parents. Now that aid of his to his mother and father, which is aid in return for aid given to him by his mother and father, is a good omen since it is the footing for many benefits both here and now and in the life to come. >> #65768 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Azita), --- han tun wrote: > > Azita: > this is quite fascinating, that one who has seemingly > well developed insight, still can go astray. I > remember feeling this similar suprise during one of > the Bkk sessions. > ---------- > Han: > Azita, you must be familiar with the following sutta. > > Sn 2.1 Ratana Sutta: The Jewel Discourse, translated > by Piyadassi Thera > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.01.piya.html > > > Quote: [ 9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well > taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), > even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they > will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of > sense spheres). <...> > Han: > It will be interesting to note that a > sattakkhattu-parama-sotapanna (one who enters Nibbana > after seven lives) is still capable of being > exceedingly heedless (bhusan pamattaa), but he/she is > incapable of committing major wrong doings that would > make him/her reborn in four states of woe, and he/she > will not be reborn more than seven times before he/she > enters Nibbana. ... S: Thank you for your quote from the Ratana Sutta. Yes, it's a good reminder that the sotapanna can be 'exceedingly heedless'(bhusan pamattaa) even though incapable of going astray by way of wrong views. It's always most helpful when you add the Pali terms. I meant to thank you for adding them in another passage being discussed. Metta, Sarah ======= #65769 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:18 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 595- The Stages of Insight(q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd When understanding clearly sees the disadvantages of conditioned dhammas, and it has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, then the stage of insight which is Adaptation Knowledge (in Påli: anuloma ñåùa) can be reached, and this arises during the process in which enlightenment occurs. This process is as follows(1): mind-door adverting-consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana-citta) preparatory consciousness (parikamma) proximity consciousness or access (upacåra) adaptation or conformity (anuloma) change of lineage (gotrabhu) path-consciousness (magga-citta) fruition-consciousness (phala-citta, two or three moments, depending on the individual) The mind-door adverting-consciousness of this process adverts to one of the three characteristics of the reality which presents itself. The preparatory consciousness, the proximity consciousness and the adaptation which are mahå-kusala cittas accompanied by understanding experience the same object as the mind-door adverting-consciousness. “Adaptation” (anuloma) is the last citta in that process which has as object a conditioned reality and penetrates its true nature. The succeeding citta which is called “change of lineage” (gotrabhú) does not experience the same object anymore as the preceding cittas in that process; it is the first citta experiencing nibbåna (Vis. XXII, 1). It experiences nibbåna but it is not lokuttara citta, it is mahå-kusala citta. Change of lineage is intermediate between cittas of the sense-sphere and the lokuttara cittas which succeed it. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 24. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:19 am Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. nilovg Hi Phil, I am glad for you. Let us know how it goes by a one-liner. Here is a one-liner for you: Listening to Kh Sujin in the U.S., someone asked what is the most difficult thing to do. Answer: That is no small matter. Nina. Op 30-nov-2006, om 2:04 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Naomi met a woman who has a lot of > connections with editors and publishers #65771 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! sarahprocter... Dear Han (& NIna), --- han tun wrote: Nina:> Note 63 taken from the Tiika: The four factors of > stream entry (see S.v,347) are waiting on good men, > hearing the Good Dhamma, wise attention, and practice > in accordance with the Dhamma. Again they are: > absolute confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the > Sangha, and possession of noble virtue (S.v,343).> > ------------------------------ > Han: > P.S. I think (S.v,347) and (S.v,343) refer to older > translations of Samyutta Nikaya and the figures > indicate the volume and page numbers. As I do not have > older translations I would be grateful to have sutta > numbers or sutta titles, for further study. ... S: These refs refer to the Pali S.v,347 refers to V,(Mahavagga),347 It is SN55 (Sotapattisamyutta):5(5)Sariputta (2) BB's translation is on p.1792 "....'What now, Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry?' 'Association with superior persons......Hearing the true Dhamma.....Careful attention.....Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry." S.v,343 refers to the same chapter, SN55:1(1) Wheel-turning Monarch Metta, Sarah ====== #65772 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I must thank you. You are my prime mover at DSG. I really appreciate your encouragements. I pray for your complete recovery very soon. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: Thank you for your quote from the Ratana Sutta. > Yes, it's a good > reminder that the sotapanna can be 'exceedingly > heedless'(bhusan pamattaa) > even though incapable of going astray by way of > wrong views. > > It's always most helpful when you add the Pali > terms. I meant to thank you > for adding them in another passage being discussed. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > > #65773 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:41 am Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- Phil wrote: > Ph: OK here is another thing said that has stuck in my craw. (An > idiom meaning it's difficult to digest!) "What good is it to know > kusala from akusala if one does not know that realities are not- > self." ... S: Because what we think we know is just a story about them while they are taken for my kusala and akusala. It's not the direct understanding of the realities of kusala and akusala. Unless there is a beginning of knowing dhammas now as dhammas, not Self's dhammas, the understanding of dhammas as anatta will never develop nor will the path of satipatthana. That's why KS stresses there's never enough talk about paramattha dhammas. 'It's the truth'.... ... >Acharn Sujin said that in a talk. Perhaps she would phrase it > differently. Because on another occasion when asked about the > difference between (wholesome) chanda and lobha, she said "one is > kusala and the other is akusala." ... This is correct - these dhammas to be known as not-self too. The distinction between kusala and akusala dhammas goes along with the understanding of not-self. Those who have developed samatha (even up to jhana)with insight, know kusala and akusala, but not as paramattha dhammas because they are still clung to as belonging to a self and so on. Glad the writing projects are going well. In the process of uploading the controversial Feb 2006 Bangkok discussions onto dhammastudygroup.org as I speak. Look forward to your comments. You'll especially enjoy the 2nd week sessions with Vince questioning and challenging what KS says in his lively style:-). Have a good break (or non-break) depending on conditions as usual. NO REPLY EXPECTED:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #65774 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fine Faith is the Entrance! hantun1 Dear Sarah and Nina, I got it now. The two suttas are SN 55.5 Dutiya Sariputta Sutta, and SN 55. 1 Cakkavattiraaja Sutta. Both are very good suttas. I thank you and Nina very much. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: These refs refer to the Pali > S.v,347 refers to V,(Mahavagga),347 > It is SN55 (Sotapattisamyutta):5(5)Sariputta (2) > > S.v,343 refers to the same chapter, SN55:1(1) > Wheel-turning Monarch > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #65775 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:33 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear connie, Thanks for your reply. c: "My heart leapt for joy at your disinclination to traffic in humans..." I know it did. Thanks for that. While other's may quail, you get it: how close can a guy come to the 'Going Forth' with two kids and a day job? If his wife is gone so soon the sorrow but why re-encumber? Why tie the knot when the Knots are to be untied? Its a discinclination. Why not guard the senses? And anyway I can't help it. I almost don't want it most of the time. I didn't make that happen. Its not cessation by any means, obviously, but looking I can see. And, of course, different strokes for different folks. c: "...Still, "the defiled inclinations of beings are two [towards eternalism and towards annihilationism, and the present case is not one of annihilationism]." No, it is not. c: "Candy from a madwoman's basket may taste sweet, but is it Divinity, the love of gods we'd ask, or more sticky gobs of vile confections to feed unhealthy appetites? How becoming of a pig are soul-felt squeals of delight - what abandonment. I say between mouthfuls... don't know what I've eaten, but I'm full of opinions." Pass the peas. Its compelling no doubt. Why not take advantage of absence? As I said, 'I almost don't want it most of the time'. Who wouldn't want to grunt but what is the duration of orgasm? (Is it not merely citta-ja-citta-samutthaana-ruupa, by the way?) c: "...For "the love of gods", practice on children! - patience, kindness, giving, etc. - but if it's not a Means to the End, what good is it?" Yeah because, if its there, patience and kindness and giving are good and beautiful and even suggest in a way, should these be well received, the 'wholesomeness' of the child - no different than the parent in vipaaka. Not that we are all one in that Great Big Consciousness in the Sky, Phydo forbid. c: "Have to take the good along with the bad, I guess. Rotten deal, that. If it were all obviously ugly or distasteful etc. , who'd be needing SamVega? We'd all sit around basking in ignorance. Just ask me." Again yeah. And exactly. Let me out of here. Stop the merry-go-round, I want to get off. And good point: 'Means to the End' for 'means to an end'. c: "- Illustrator on 'Aid for mother and father' [Good Omen stanza 5: << Maataapitu-upa.t.thaana"m puttadaarassa sangaho Anaakulaa ca kammantaa: etam mangalam uttama"m >>..." I'll have to struggle with this. Parents are another story... Scott. #65776 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:39 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 137 nilovg Dear friends, (Continuation of the Discourse on the Manifold Elements, Middle Length Sayings III, no. 115) .......... ``Might there be another way also, revered sir, according to which it suffices to say, `The monk is skilled in the elements'?'' ``There might be, Ånanda. There are these six elements, Ånanda: the element of happiness, the element of anguish, the element of gladness, the element of sorrowing, the element of equanimity, the element of ignorance. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these six elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, `The monk is skilled in the elements'.'' The Buddha then explained still other ways of being skilled in the elements and further on we read that Ånanda asked again: ``Might there be another way also, revered sir, according to which it suffices to say, `The monk is skilled in the elements'?'' ``There might be, Ånanda. There are these two elements, Ånanda: the element that is constructed and the element that is unconstructed. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these two elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, `The monk is skilled in the elments'.'' The element which is ``constructed'' (sankhata), is all conditioned realities (the five khandhas), and the element which is ``unconstructed'' (asankhata), is nibbåna. Also nibbåna is an element, it is not a person, it is devoid of self, anattå. We read in this sutta about the monk who knows and sees the elements. Knowing and seeing the elements does not mean only knowing them in theory and thinking about them. One knows and sees the elements when there is paññå which realizes nåma and rúpa as they are: only elements, not self. This knowledge will lead to the end of fears, troubles and misfortunes, to the end of dukkha. ***** Nina. #65777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:45 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, I, 10. nilovg Dear friends, There is such a great variety of colours, sounds, odours, flavours and tangible objects which appear and are experienced by the appropriate sense-cognitions through the corresponding sense-doors. If we remember this we shall not imagine the objects of seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions to be other than they really are. Then satipa.t.thåna can develop more naturally. After the sense- door process has been completed, the object is experienced through the mind-door, and then there are other mind-door processes of cittas which define the object and think about it. We should not worry about it when satipa.t.thåna does not often arise. When Khun Sujin was in England, she said that one should not cling to the stages of insight, vipassanå ~naa.nas: “We do not mind about vipassanå ~naa.na, there should just be understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. It is so anattå, there should not be any expectation. So long as there are expectations vipassanå ~naa.na cannot arise.” Khun Sujin reminds us time and again that we should always be humble, a "nobody", instead of somebody. A wise person who understands realities which arise because of their own conditions will be less attracted by honour, praise or gain. Do we think of "my development", is there an idea of "I did it"? Then we want to be somebody, and that is not the right way. Sarah said to Khun Sujin that it is very hard to see the danger of the arising of nåma and rúpa, to see the benefit of not having them anymore. Khun Sujin answered: “That is why there are many stages of vipassanå. Even when the arising and falling away of realities is experienced it is not enough. Attachment and the other defilements are so deeply rooted. It needs higher and higher understanding to see the danger of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. They appear and then disappear immediately, but the succeeding ones arise and thus there will be attachment again. Attachment is so attached to any object which arises. We can talk a great deal about the impermanence of realities, but this does not mean anything if the reality of this moment is not directly experienced as impermanent.” Sarah asked: “Is it of any use at all to think of the impermanence of realities if it is not directly experienced?” Khun Sujin answered: “It is right thinking which is wholesome, but it cannot eradicate akusala. That is why the Buddha told us to develop more understanding. He spoke about the objects awareness should be aware of, so that right understanding can grow. The knowledge of all details can condition paññå to see the characteristic of anattå of all realities. One may read the scriptures but if there is no awareness of the present moment we shall not understand what has been taught in the scriptures.” ********* Nina. #65778 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Phil), I like this: N: "...This reminds me of the Perfection of Truthfulness we need so badly. Knowing about kusala citta and akusala citta and other details about cetasikas is by no means intelletualization, it is meant of investigation when it occurs." Would it be fair to say that this knowledge, so often minimized and even vilified as too much needless detail, is necessary since, without it, the potentially knowable cannot be set out? I mean learning the exhaustive list of what can be known allows for the naming of what is experienced and gives a sort of vision of the field. Like having a good working knowledge of a book's table of contents and index allows for a I think that much of what is deep about the Dhamma is in the details. Ignorance has room when what is potentially knowable is in the dark. N: "... If we do not know ourselves as we really are and if we take ourselves for a righteous person who does not need to continue developing kusala, we do not notice that we are guided by akusala." This is the conceit I've been struggling with. I find that sometimes after experiencing what seems like a very wholesome sort of excitement about encountering the Dhamma I get this sense of attachment to or adoration of the Dhamma and find I almost get carried away. I have to remember that it isn't 'mine' and that I don't 'have'it. I have to remember that this appreciation just arises. Getting carried away and feeling 'special', conditioned by something wholesome, is a good reminder that kusala can just as easily be condition for akusala as for more kusala, and this alone keeps me from getting too fancy for my own good. Its hard though. It feels so good to be thinking of self and all 'my' fine and noble qualities. Thankfully kusala has nothing to do with self. N: "As we develop the perfection of determination, we shall be steadfast in our resolution to develop pa~n~na through the study and practice of the Dhamma with the aim of eradicating all defilements." The bottom line. N: "...We can see that we need a refined and detailed understanding of our different cittas for the development of kusala. We should not be neglectful with regard to this." Yeah. Thanks, Nina. Scott. #65779 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:05 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. scottduncan2 "...Like having a good working knowledge of a book's table of contents and index allows for a..." That's it boyo, finish your sentences... Sorry. Scott. #65780 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. sarahprocter... Phil & all, typo, yikes! --- sarah abbott wrote: > Those who have developed samatha (even up to jhana)with insight, know > kusala and akusala, but not as paramattha dhammas because they are still > clung to as belonging to a self and so on. .... S: WITHOUT insight. It should read: > Those who have developed samatha (even up to jhana)without insight, know > kusala and akusala, but not as paramattha dhammas because they are still > clung to as belonging to a self and so on. Sarah, keeping Scott company:-) ======= #65781 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:12 pm Subject: Away for a Week upasaka_howard Hi, all - We're leaving for the Dallas area tomorrow for a week's visit. It's our granddaughter, Sophie's, first birthday, a fact for which we are very grateful. (We're leaving quite early in the morning to avoid some severe weather expected in the NY area.) I plan on keeping in touch with the list while away but probably less than usual. Be well, all. :-) With metta, Howard #65782 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Han & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > We're leaving for the Dallas area tomorrow for a week's visit. > It's > our granddaughter, Sophie's, first birthday, a fact for which we are > very > grateful. ... S: Quite a first year and a real celebration that she's doing so well. Have a lovely time with her, as I know you will:-). May I just add here that the recent sensitive on-going discussions which have concerned you so much have been extremely helpful for everyone to reflect on, I would suspect. I'd like to particularly thank you in this regard as, like you, I think we all need to consider a lot whether our actions follow our words and whether they really manifest in our daily lives. I know you are always very sincere and honest in this regard. (I was also glad to hear about Rita's work too). ... I plan on keeping in touch with the list while > away but > probably less than usual. Be well, all. :-) .... S: Thx for keeping us informed and pls do keep in touch while you're away. I'm sure that even those who have a very different understanding from you on certain topics appreciate the opportunity you give them for voicing those understandings in their own voices and styles:-). I'm sure Han would also sympathise with your recent concerns and have been following the discussions closely. Han, can I encourage you to add any of your reflections on the sotapanna-sila/reasons for not killing/mixed motives whilst 'doing good' and other recent controversial topics? Metta, Sarah ========= #65783 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:45 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 596- The Stages of Insight(r) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Only one of the three characteristics of reality is penetrated by paññå accompanying the mahå-kusala cittas before the “change of lineage” arises; thus, the reality which appears is either seen as impermanent, or as dukkha or as anattå. In the development of insight understanding investigates the three characteristics, but it depends on the individual’s accumulations which of these three is realized more often. There can be thinking of the three characteristics, but when insight develops and different stages of insight have arisen, the three characteristics are seen more clearly by direct understanding. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65784 From: "matt roke" Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Hi Jon >Jon: I may not have made my question clear. Here it is again, but worded >differently: If an 'understanding of no-self and no people' is the reason >for being incapable of *killing* another being, why would it not also mean >that one is incapable of *inflicting violence on* another being? I would think that *inflicting violence on another being* would require the desire and intention to cause bodily harm to a person and then doing it. And I think that there would also have to be dislike for the person. The only reasons I can think of that would motivate a person to hurt someone would be due to envy, fear of being hurt of killed, expecting some return for causing harm or having been hurt of deprived of something by that person. I don’t think any of these would motivate a sotapanna to hurt someone. Sotapannas can have dosa due to accumulations, such as regret for something done or not done or sadness over the loss of someone dear to them, but in these cases the dosa is not directed at anyone with malice. If, due to accumulations, a sotapanna saw a person and had dosa, then he would understand it as impermanent conditioned realities and it would not condition the intention to harm or the act of harming because there is an understanding of no self and no one. Matt >Jon: But a sotapanna is capable of acts of violence short of an intention >to kill. Does the explanation you've given here account for their being >able to commit those acts but not the act of killing? >Matt: I think so, what else would account for it? Morality or appreciation >of the result of kamma has not prevented the act of violence, so there is >always a chance that they won’t stop the act of killing. >I am not very interested in speculating on how much lobha or dosa a >Sotapannas may or may not have because of accumulations. I understand that >Sotapannas can never again have wrong view because they have insight into >the impermanence of dhammas and so they no longer take concepts of self and >people to be real. There may be conditions for them to have strong dosa >because of strong attachment, but who can they kill if they understand that >there is no self and no people? #65785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week nilovg Hi Howard, We wish you and Rita a very good trip. Only a year ago your family went through such a difficult time with Sophie, and how good it all turned up so well. But are you driving? That is too far, Lodewijk thought. I agree with Sarah that there were dicussions with various points of view on account of your posts and this is really helpful. We reflect more on all these topics and we come to the conclusion, that they are not as simple as we would think at first. Is this not a gain? Nina. Op 1-dec-2006, om 5:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We're leaving for the Dallas area tomorrow for a week's visit. It's > our granddaughter, Sophie's, first birthday, a fact for which we > are very > grateful. #65786 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 12:33 am Subject: heedlessness of sotaapanna. nilovg Dear Han and Sarah, I reflect on Sarah's post: Yes, it's a good > reminder that the sotapanna can be 'exceedingly > heedless'(bhusan pamattaa) > even though incapable of going astray by way of > wrong views.> It is good, Han, if you add more of your own reflections. I would think that this text on heedlessness helps us to see the development of satipatthana as very natural. I am inclined to think of a sotapanna as a saint, almost perfect, but this is not realistic. How could all defilements be eradicated at the first stage of enlightenment. But the difference is that the sotapanna does not take dosa for 'my dosa'. All dhanmmas, also defilements appear as usual, except of course those that were eradicated when reaching the stage of the sotapanna. The sotapanna knows that he has to continue developing understanding. Nina. #65787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 1:23 am Subject: awareness and thinking. nilovg Dear Scott, ------------ S: Would it be fair to say that this knowledge, so often minimized and even vilified as too much needless detail, is necessary since, without it, the potentially knowable cannot be set out? I mean learning the exhaustive list of what can be known allows for the naming of what is experienced and gives a sort of vision of the field. Like having a good working knowledge of a book's table of contents and index allows for a I think that much of what is deep about the Dhamma is in the details. Ignorance has room when what is potentially knowable is in the dark. -------- N: There are no rules about how much details one should study, everyone follows his inclinations. It is good to remember the purpose of study: as the quote tells us: the eradication of defilements. Also in this matter it is a question of balance (no tightrope?). Everyone has to see this for himself. We should not take thinking of a dhamma for awareness, but this is difficult. I listened to the audio Jan. 13 002, (see DSG. Org, to be reached with your browser, it can be clicked on or dowloaded with ctrl key). This may answer your question. Rob K speaks about dosa, and asks whether there can be awareness of it when it appears. He knows when he has dosa. Kh Sujin explains that instead of thinking about it, we should know that it is nama, getting used to characteristics of nama, as different from rupa. It is most important to see the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. Someone said: seeing is different from hearing, can we not know this? Kh Sujin said that also seeing should be known as nama and that we can begin to understand that it is not I who sees. Understanding of it can grow but very little at a time. My additions: I often repeat what the first stage of insight is, but I forget about it when it comes to the development of satipatthana. I neglect it. We are inclined to think very much about conceit, or wondering when kusala citta arises, when akusala citta. Instead of all that thinking our life can be simplified by understanding little by little nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Perhaps we forget that all these mental phenomena are nama, we get entangled in thinking too much about them. Nama is different from rupa which does not know anything. Perhaps we want too much too soon as Phil expressed it. You and I are inclined to details, also to Pali. This is good and helpful as a foundation. When it comes to awareness we should remember that this is different from thinking about what we learnt. ---------- N: "... If we do not know ourselves as we really are and if we take ourselves for a righteous person who does not need to continue developing kusala, we do not notice that we are guided by akusala." Scott:This is the conceit I've been struggling with. I find that sometimes after experiencing what seems like a very wholesome sort of excitement about encountering the Dhamma I get this sense of attachment to or adoration of the Dhamma and find I almost get carried away. I have to remember that it isn't 'mine' and that I don't 'have'it. I have to remember that this appreciation just arises. ------- N: This is good, but, also for me, it is on the level of thinking. Again first thing first: these moments are nama, different from rupa. This will also help us to stop complicating life by so much thinking. ---------- S:Getting carried away and feeling 'special', conditioned by something wholesome, is a good reminder that kusala can just as easily be condition for akusala as for more kusala, and this alone keeps me from getting too fancy for my own good. Its hard though. It feels so good to be thinking of self and all 'my' fine and noble qualities. Thankfully kusala has nothing to do with self. --------- N: Yes, understanding more about conditions helps. A good foundation, helping us not to go astray. At another moment someone was speaking about the six doorways and Kh Sujin said: forget about the doorways. N: Now we have to be careful of the context when quoting her. Of course all the suttas about the six doorways and the Abhidhamma are most helpful. But then it may lead us to think and think about: which doorway is operating now, through which doorway I experience such or such dhamma. 'I experience'. again. We may forget our first task again: understanding nama as nama and rupa as rupa. And even here we are bound to continue of thinking; this is nama, thinking of names and ideas. Even that thinking is conditioned; it does not matter, it is also nama. Whatever arises has conditions for its arising, and it should not be a cause of worry. This makes our life so much lighter. It is a Thai way of life to often have in mind: it does not matter, mai pen rai. When it matters we are clinging. Perhaps you can listen to the audio and give your own comments. Nina. #65788 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/1/06 3:33:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > We wish you and Rita a very good trip. Only a year ago your family > went through such a difficult time with Sophie, and how good it all > turned up so well. But are you driving? That is too far, Lodewijk > thought. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, much too far. Our son will be picking us up in a couple minutes (at 6:45 a.m,) to take us to the airport. We take off at 9 a.m. and arrive 4 hours later. By leaving early, we'll avoid the thunderstorms and 55 mph winds that start later. --------------------------------------- > I agree with Sarah that there were dicussions with various points of > view on account of your posts and this is really helpful. We reflect > more on all these topics and we come to the conclusion, that they are > not as simple as we would think at first. Is this not a gain? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, very much a gain. :-) --------------------------------------- > Nina. > =================== With metta, Howard #65789 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Han) - Thank you very much for the following, Sarah. You are very kind - as usual! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/1/06 12:40:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, (Han &all), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > We're leaving for the Dallas area tomorrow for a week's visit. > >It's > >our granddaughter, Sophie's, first birthday, a fact for which we are > >very > >grateful. > ... > S: Quite a first year and a real celebration that she's doing so well. > Have a lovely time with her, as I know you will:-). > > May I just add here that the recent sensitive on-going discussions which > have concerned you so much have been extremely helpful for everyone to > reflect on, I would suspect. I'd like to particularly thank you in > this regard as, like you, I think we all need to consider a lot whether > our actions follow our words and whether they really manifest in our daily > lives. I know you are always very sincere and honest in this regard. > (I was also glad to hear about Rita's work too). > ... > I plan on keeping in touch with the list while > >away but > >probably less than usual. Be well, all. :-) > .... > S: Thx for keeping us informed and pls do keep in touch while you're away. > I'm sure that even those who have a very different understanding from you > on certain topics appreciate the opportunity you give them for voicing > those understandings in their own voices and styles:-). > > I'm sure Han would also sympathise with your recent concerns and have been > following the discussions closely. Han, can I encourage you to add any of > your reflections on the sotapanna-sila/reasons for not killing/mixed > motives whilst 'doing good' and other recent controversial topics? > > Metta, > > Sarah #65790 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 1:51 am Subject: Blinded, Pushed, Pulled & Seduced! bhikkhu5 Friends: Why is there Suffering here? Because of actions performed of beings when: Blinded by Ignorance! Pulled by Craving for Pleasure! Pushed by Fear of Pain! Seduced by Self-Deception! The resulting reaction to such actions is Suffering! When there is a cause, there will also be an effect… Later, quite much later and very much later … Therefore: Be Careful… Never ever do bad! Neither bodily, nor verbally nor mentally! May all creatures, all that breathe, all beings one & all, with no exceptions experience good fortune & joy only. May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 With all his clingings cut, with all mental urge stilled, calm, serene and happy is he, for he has reached peace of mind. Samyutta Nikaya I, 212 Yeah! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #65791 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 5:02 am Subject: Re: awareness and thinking. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply. N: "There are no rules about how much details one should study, everyone follows his inclinations. It is good to remember the purpose of study: as the quote tells us: the eradication of defilements." Yes, and inclinations are so variable from person to person. N: "Also in this matter it is a question of balance (no tightrope?). Everyone has to see this for himself." Ah, the famous 'tightrope' analogy. I think 'balancing' has been taken for 'balance', which is a different sort of thing all together. I think that if one feels oneself to be on a tightrope then one is trying to hard and one is caught up with self. When there is 'balance' one doesn't worry about staying upright, one just is. I'm not saying that for me there is 'balance', I'm only writing conceptually. There have been some good discussions lately. It seems that a flurry of activity has just passed by in DSG. Its hard to avoid a sort of foisting of viewpoints, I guess. There are often more than one in opposition, as it were, within the group - different currents eddying around. I listened to the session on tape (Mike, it was very cool to actually hear your voice!): N: "We should not take thinking of a dhamma for awareness, but this is difficult...Kh Sujin explains that instead of thinking about it, we should know that it is nama, getting used to characteristics of nama, as different from rupa. It is most important to see the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight...seeing should be known as nama and that we can begin to understand that it is not I who sees. Understanding of it can grow but very little at a time." Kh. Sujin seemed to come from the characteristic to the dhamma, if you know what I mean. She spoke of anatta as being very important and then related this particular characteristic to naama, dosa as in Rob's example, and then said, 'It's not my dosa'. N: "...I often repeat what the first stage of insight is, but I forget about it when it comes to the development of satipatthana." I get hung up a bit on stages too. N: "...Instead of all that thinking our life can be simplified by understanding little by little nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Perhaps we forget that all these mental phenomena are nama, we get entangled in thinking too much about them. Nama is different from rupa which does not know anything." Kh. Sujin said, 'The more we know...there can be conditions for awareness. She clearly differentiates intellectual understanding from awareness, which, intellectually, one 'knows'. I like how she says that the 'growth of understanding' comes 'when there is awareness'. Knowing terms may serve as condition somehow but 'in the trenches'its awareness that gives understanding. N: "You and I are inclined to details, also to Pali. This is good and helpful as a foundation. When it comes to awareness we should remember that this is different from thinking about what we learnt." As Mike said, 'thinking about thinking'. 'Awareness' is something else. N: "...Again first thing first: these moments are nama, different from rupa. This will also help us to stop complicating life by so much thinking." Yeah. N: "...Sujin said: forget about the doorways...We may forget our first task again: understanding nama as nama and rupa as rupa. And even here we are bound to continue of thinking; this is nama, thinking of names and ideas. Even that thinking is conditioned; it does not matter, it is also nama. Whatever arises has conditions for its arising, and it should not be a cause of worry. This makes our life so much lighter." As you say, Nina, first things first. With loving kindness, Scott. #65792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 10:38 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana II, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Letter on Vipassanå 2 When Khun Sujin was in England Alan Weller recorded the discussions he had with her. These recordings contain many precious reminders about satipaììhåna in daily life and therefore I would like to share these with all of you. The discussions were about citta (consciousness), cetasika (mental factors arising with the citta) and rúpa (physical phenomena). They were about cittas which experience objects through the six doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. There are many different types of citta arising in daily life. There is seeing of visible object and there is the interpretation of what was seen and this is not seeing but thinking. When there are conditions for awareness it can arise and be aware of any object which appears, be it visible object, seeing, feeling or thinking. When there is awareness we do not have to name or label any reality, there is the direct experience of the characteristics of realities. Seeing is just the experience of what is visible, it has its own characteristic, we do not have to name it. Thinking is just thinking, it has its own characteristic, we do not have to name it. Seeing sees visible object but it lasts only for an extremely short moment and then it is gone. Visible object does not last either, it falls away. Seeing can only see, it cannot think of visible object. If one wants to concentrate on seeing or visible object, if one has any idea of fixing one’s attention on them with the purpose of knowing them, it prevents right understanding of realities. We cannot stare at visible object, since it is seen just for a moment, and then it falls away. We may think about it, but that is not direct awareness of its characteristic. I would like to transcribe a dialogue between Khun Sujin and Alan about this subject: Khun Sujin: “The more one understands that thinking thinks, the more visible object will appear as visible object. It does not matter at all if there is thinking because there are conditions for thinking almost all the time. There is the experience of objects through the sense-doors and then thinking.” Alan: “We have to know, not through thinking, but through direct experience.” Kh. S. : “That is why there should be awareness of thinking and the understanding of it as just a reality.“ A. :“That is it, visible object should be separated from thinking.” Kh. S. : “That is why it is necessary to be aware of thinking, so that realities can be understood. Many people do not want to think, they try to stop thinking. They believe that in that way they can understand realities.” A. : “The thinking is very fast. Seeing sees visible object and then there is thinking.” Kh.S. : “The development of awareness is necessary in order to understand thinking. Visible object appears very shortly and then there is thinking. One thinks about a particular thing.” A. : “We are picking out one thing from the visible object by our thinking. Just one idea.” Kh.S. : “Then some ‘thing’ is there, even if we do not name it. When we point at something there is thinking, not seeing. For the experience of visible object you don't have to point.” ******* Nina. #65793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 10:33 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 138 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 19 The Sobhana Cittas in our Life. There are many different types of citta which arise in our life and they can be classified in different ways. When they are classified by way of four “jåtis” (jåti means “birth” or “nature”), they are: 1. Kusala cittas (wholesome cittas) 2. Akusala cittas (unwholesome cittas) 3. Vipåkacittas (cittas which are result) 4. Kiriyacittas (cittas which are “inoperative”, neither cause nor result) Another way of classifying cittas is as follows: 1. Sobhana cittas , cittas accompanied by sobhana (beautiful ) cetasikas 2. Asobhana cittas , cittas unaccompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Akusala cittas and ahetuka cittas are asobhana cittas, they are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. As we have seen, there are twelve types of akusala cittas. They are: 8 types of lobha-múla-citta (cittas rooted in attachment) 2 types of dosa-múla-citta (cittas rooted in aversion) 2 types of moha-múla-citta (cittas rooted in ignorance) Ahetuka cittas are cittas without roots and unaccompanied by sobhana cetasikas, and thus they are asobhana. As we have seen, there are eighteen types of ahetuka cittas. Summarizing them, they are: 10 dvi-pañca-viññå.nas, which are ahetuka vipåkacittas (the five pairs of seeing, hearing, etc.) 2 sampa.ticchana-cittas, receiving-consciousness, which are ahetuka vipåkacittas (one akusala vipåka and one kusala vipåka) 3 santíra.na-cittas, investigating-consciousness, which are ahetuka vipåkacittas (one akusala vipåka, one kusala vipåka, accompanied by upekkhå, and one kusala vipåka, accompanied by somanassa) 1 pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, five-door-adverting- consciousness, which is ahetuka kiriyacitta 1 mano-dvåråvajjana-citta, mind-door-adverting- consciousness, which is ahetuka kiriyacitta 1 hasituppåda-citta, an ahetuka kiriyacitta which can produce the smile of an arahat Thus, there are thirty asobhana cittas: twelve akusala cittas and eighteen ahetuka cittas. ****** Nina. #65794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking. nilovg Dear Scott, We need not think too much about the names of stages and higher stages. They teach us that we cannot immediately know impermanence, or the other two general characteristics. They remind us that we go very, very slowly. I do not pretend to understand anatta, but I know that it is correct to learn what nama is and what rupa is. In that way understanding of anatta will grow, even though it is so slow that we do not realize it. It will come by the right conditions. The knife handle. You hold it each day but cannot notice its wearing away. I used to find it tedious and boring to hear again and again about it, Kh Sujin often repeats it. Now it becomes more meaningful to me. I like to hear it now. Good you listened and gave your comments. Sarah likes us to. If you listen to another one, I listen too and we can discuss. Soon she and Jon will upload a new one, and this contains explanations about nimitta (a pity Phil is off now). Nina. Op 1-dec-2006, om 14:02 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > N: "...I often repeat what the first stage of insight is, but > I forget about it when it comes to the development of satipatthana." > > I get hung up a bit on stages too. #65795 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 2:39 pm Subject: vipallaasas and sotaapanna hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah and all, I found the following in a book by a Burmese Sayadaw. It was in Question and Answer format. Question: It is said that a sotaapanna has eradicated ditthi and vicikicchaa, But a sotaapanna is still doing worldly things such as business, and he still weeps when his wife or son dies. So he must still have ditthi. Please explain, sir, what kind of ditthi has a sotaapanna eradicated? Sayadaw: A sotaapanna has completely eradicated twenty sakkaaya-ditthi, or in other words, ditthi vipallaasa, perversion of views. But he still has some amount of sa~n~naa vipallaasa, perversion of perception, and citta vipallaasa, perversion of thought. That’s why he is still married and weeps when his wife or son dies. But these two remaining perversions are not as strong as in a puthujjana, and they arise only when a sotaapanna is heedless. When he is aware of things with yonisomanasikaara or when he is practicing vipassanaa bhaavanaa such perversions cannot arise. ------------------------------ Han: I became interested in the three vipallaasas. So I looked at Visuddhimagga and I found: Vism. XXII, 53: The perversions are the three, namely, perversion of perception, of consciousness, and of view, which occur apprehending objects that are impermanent, painful, not-self, and foul (ugly), as permanent, pleasure, self, and beautiful. Could you kindly explain more about these three vipallaasas? Respectfully, Han #65796 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Howard), > Sarah: I'm sure Han would also sympathise with your recent concerns and have been following the discussions closely. Han, can I encourage you to add any of your reflections on the sotapanna-sila/ reasons for not killing/mixed motives whilst 'doing good' and other recent controversial topics? ---------- Han: Sarah, I appreciate your encouragement. I respect Howard and appreciate all his posts. But I am reluctant to add my reflections on those controversial topics, because my reflections will be very elementary. Howard and those members with whom he is discussing are dhamma literary giants, and I feel that they are a class of their own, a class which is far up for me to join. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > I'm sure Han would also sympathise with your recent > concerns and have been > following the discussions closely. Han, can I > encourage you to add any of > your reflections on the sotapanna-sila/reasons for > not killing/mixed > motives whilst 'doing good' and other recent > controversial topics? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > #65797 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 5:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) gazita2002 Hello Han, and Sarah thank you Han, I am not familiar with this sutta, and in fact confess to being one who reads sutta infrequently. This has been a subject that has come up in discussion in Bkk; I have formerly had difficulty with Suttas in that they seem to make the development of wisdom and understanding appear easier than it really is - but feel now that suttas can be interpreted according to one's own understanding. I understand the Buddha had different methods for talking to various 'beings' but his basic message was always the same. That the all is impermanent, non-self and dukkha [unsatisfactory]. Unfortunately I have little time on computor these days, so cannot at this stage go any further; and I also look forward to meeting you again in Bkk in Jan. Patience, courage and good cheer azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Azita and Sarah, > > > Azita: > this is quite fascinating, that one who has seemingly > well developed insight, still can go astray. I > remember feeling this similar suprise during one of > the Bkk sessions. > ---------- > Han: > Azita, you must be familiar with the following sutta. > > Sn 2.1 Ratana Sutta: The Jewel Discourse, translated > by Piyadassi Thera > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.01.piya.html > .............snip...... > > Azita, I hope to see you in Bangkok in January 2007. > > Metta, > Han > P.S. for Sarah. I am extremely sorry to know that you > are still suffering from post-therapeutic neuralgia. I > am praying for your complete recovery. > #65798 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna m_nease Hi Han, Thanks so much for this--this is the most interesting new material I've seen (or noticed) posted here in years. Fascinating and important I think, especially given the Vsm. citation. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: han tun To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna Dear Nina, Sarah and all, I found the following in a book by a Burmese Sayadaw. It was in Question and Answer format. Question: It is said that a sotaapanna has eradicated ditthi and vicikicchaa, But a sotaapanna is still doing worldly things such as business, and he still weeps when his wife or son dies. So he must still have ditthi. Please explain, sir, what kind of ditthi has a sotaapanna eradicated? Sayadaw: A sotaapanna has completely eradicated twenty sakkaaya-ditthi, or in other words, ditthi vipallaasa, perversion of views. But he still has some amount of sa~n~naa vipallaasa, perversion of perception, and citta vipallaasa, perversion of thought. That's why he is still married and weeps when his wife or son dies. But these two remaining perversions are not as strong as in a puthujjana, and they arise only when a sotaapanna is heedless. When he is aware of things with yonisomanasikaara or when he is practicing vipassanaa bhaavanaa such perversions cannot arise. ------------------------------ Han: I became interested in the three vipallaasas. So I looked at Visuddhimagga and I found: Vism. XXII, 53: The perversions are the three, namely, perversion of perception, of consciousness, and of view, which occur apprehending objects that are impermanent, painful, not-self, and foul (ugly), as permanent, pleasure, self, and beautiful. Could you kindly explain more about these three vipallaasas? Respectfully, Han #65799 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 3:02 am Subject: Latest edited audio discussions uploaded! sarahprocter... Dear All, We're delighted to have uploaded the latest discussions with A.Sujin, edited by Jon and I, from Bangkok, February, 2006. These can be found here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Scroll down past the entire DSG archives (backed-up with Connie's great assistance and available for easy scrolling, searching or down-loading for reading off-line). When you get to the audio files, the new ones are under the Erik series with this title: >Bangkok (at the Foundation), February 2006 ( Nina and friends)< In the first week, you'll hear Nina, ourselves, Rob K, Sukin, Matt aka Ivan, Azita and others. In the second week, you'll hear Vince, Nina, Sukin, Matt/Ivan, Azita, ourselves, Christine and others. For those who really like to hear 'debate', start here rather than 'agreement', start here! Vince is an old friend and can always be relied on to challenge and question what he hears in a lively fashion:-). Some of Phil's questions are raised and possibly Scott's and Joop's unless I've mistaken these with some other more recent ones I'm working on now. Whether you agree or disagree with K.Sujin's and other comments by some of us, do listen and share your feedback about what you've heard, what you find helpful and what you take exception to. If anyone has difficulty listening or downloading from the website for any reason (such as lack of a broadband connection) and would like a cd in mp3 format sent to you (hopefully for Xmas), pls send me your address off-list. (For those we'll be seeing in Bangkok in Jan, we can give you a copy then). Metta, Sarah ======